Misrepresentation, but no fraud

This is truly a sad day for our city and community.

It is a heartbreaking day for any tiny human being that will be destroyed at this facility.

And even tho so many females will be celebrating their 'victory', it is actually a most pitiful outcome for them because they are the true pawns in this evil law.

A law which allows a mother to partake in the brutal torture of her own flesh and blood, and finally taking part in ending the life of a human being who had every right as we do to the right to live!

God have mercy on all of us.

I don't understand why everyone is trying to stop them from allowing a clinic like this to open. That is a choice and who are we to judge we have a higher person that is going to do that. We don't know everyones situtation so why should we try and decide whats right or wrong for them.

Dear Fellow Aurorans-

Today is not a Victory as some have "claimed". What is "victorious" about a company that "deceived" our city and lied on applications because their business practices are so contoversial to any reason-minded person? What is "victorious" about a company that "dismembers" and even "beheads" our innocent babies in the wombs of mothers and then calls it "minor" surgery. What is "victorious" about this company's "perverted" sex ed propaganda that is tooooooo graphic for prisoners, but handed out to kindergarders like candy. There are 500 schools within a 5 mile radius from this PP fortress- Look out District 204- here comes their perverted sex ed program-their book "It's Perfectly Normal" is one of the Top 10 most controversial books on the Libaray Association website.

What is "victorious" about our Mayor Weisner betraying his constituents and his Alderman at that....

No as we have been saying all along....when you invite PP into your community you invite and promote EVIL. Yes, we are seeing the fruits of what PP brings into the community and it's only going to get worse. God will not Bless this City of Lights when we allow evil to fester and when our own "Catholic" (not) Mayor endorses a lying and muderous business. We will continue our Prayerful Vigil outside this fortress b/c this City needs our fervent prayers now more than ever.

Jane Fonner
Aurora, IL

Jane,

Which of his legal powers could Mayor Weisner exercise to stop the clinic from opening? ARe there any lawyers on the forum? I would be most curious to know.

Quote: "A law which allows a mother to partake in the brutal torture of her own flesh and blood"

Torture implies prolonged infliction of pain, physical or psychological.

Could someone explain to me what prolonged infliction of physical or psychological pain to the fetus is taking place during an abortion?

Elena,

We never alleged criminal fraud. Our questions have been about
CIVIL fraud in the application process and a crucial underlying
ZONING question. Both of these issues are left completely unanswered by Barsanti's report. In fact, Barsanti states that he doesn't even have the authority to address these questions.

We expect the Mayor to follow through on his promise that CIVIL fraud be investigated. Also, how can Planned Parenthood be allowed to operate in a location clearly not zoned for a
not-for-profit medical office. Barsanti's report leaves unanswered the CIVIL FRAUD and ZONING questions -- and that those questions MUST BE ANSWERED.
Jane

Jane,

I see.

Well, lets wait and see.

I am very happy that PP can open, but I expect it to follow the letter of the law.

Elena-

Dr. William Matviuw, an obstetrician/gynecologist, says that the nerves that sense pain reach the skin of the fetus by the ninth week of gestation, and that detectable brain activity in response to noxious (harmful or damaging) stimuli occurs between the eighth and tenth week (as noted in Stanislaw Reinis and Jerome M. Goldman, The Development of the Brain, 1980, pp. 223-235. Springfield, Ill., Charles C. Thomas Publishers).

The earliest first term abortions occur at eight weeks, while the majority occur between eight to twelve weeks. Based on the development of the nervous system, babies as young as eight weeks gestational age feel both psychological and physical responses to noxious stimuli, which in this case is abortion.

Perhaps you'd like to see a visual- go to www.silentscream.org and see the video for yourself. An ex-abortionist changed his heart after seeing this (his victim) on the ultrasound.
Jane

Very good, Jane! Finally, a person who at least bothered to look up some data for the conversation. Thank you very much.

Well, putting the brain activity question aside (unless you would like to present some agruments that demonstrate that a fetus 9-12 weeks can experience prologed psychological suffering), let's talk about the perception of pain. First of all, is there a concensus among scientists on this matter? Because I am looking at the language of the Unborn Child Pain Awareness Act of 2005 (is it sponsored by National Right to Life? not sure) http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/Fetal_Pain/S512005.html
and they recommend anesthesia only after 20 weeks.

Elena- Here's what you're looking for..

In 1984 President Reagan said: "When the lives of the unborn are snuffed out, they often feel pain, pain that is long and agonizing." President Ronald Reagan to National Religious Broadcasters, New York Times, Jan. 31, 1984

This provoked a public reaction from pro-abortion circles and a response from an auspicious group of professors, including pain specialists and two past presidents of the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology.

They strongly backed Mr. Reagan and produced substantial documentation. Excerpts of their letter (2/13/84) to him included:

"Real time ultrasonography, fetoscopy, study of the fetal EKG (electrocardiogram) and fetal EEG (electroencephalogram) have demonstrated the remarkable responsiveness of the human fetus to pain, touch, and sound. That the fetus responds to changes in light intensity within the womb, to heat, to cold, and to taste (by altering the chemical nature of the fluid swallowed by the fetus) has been exquisitely documented in the pioneering work of the late Sir William Lily — the father of fetology."

We state categorically that no finding of modern fetology invalidates the remarkable conclusion drawn after a lifetime of research by the late Professor Arnold Gesell of Yale University. In The Embryology of Behavior: The Beginnings of the Human Mind (1945, Harper Bros.), Dr. Gesell wrote, "and so by the close of the first trimester the fetus is a sentient, moving being. We need not speculate as to the nature of his psychic attributes, but we may assert that the organization of his psychosomatic self is well under way."

Mr. President, in drawing attention to the capability of the human fetus to feel pain, you stand on firmly established ground. Willke, J & B, Abortion: Questions & Answers, Hayes, 1991, Chpt. 10

I agree 100% with anonymous from October 2. What happens if a woman was raped and got pregnant as a result of it? Would you tell her "Sorry, I know what happened to you is a tragedy and was not your choice at all but you're not only going to have to carry this child for 9 months, but you're also going to have to give birth to it too". Tell that to your female neighbors, sisters, daughters, female friends if it should ever happen to them.

The topic is a double edged sword. No I do not believe that it should be used as an "oops, I had sex, now I'm pregnant", because I feel if you are ready to have sex, you should be ready to accept the consequences. Under age females who come into the clinic should NEED parent notification and consent for the procedure and should go through the hoops of proving that the person there is indeed your parent.

With this clinic, even if you are against it, find some sort of comfort in the fact that the procedure is being performed by a doctor, and not just women doing everything in their own power themselves to harm and kill their unborn child. That would be inhumane.

Allowing abortion for cases of rape or incest effectively blames the preborn for another's (i.e. the father) crime. Killing a preborn because his or her father is a rapist is no more justifiable than killing the rapist's mother or father (perhaps even less so, in that, plausibly, a parent could have in some way influenced, caused or contributed to the son's actions. The preborn child has not yet been created; no causal influence, and therefore culpability, is possible). The perpetrator alone should be punished; punishing the preborn makes him or her a scapegoat and the second victim.

The circumstances of a preborn child's conception should not modify, let alone negate, his or her right to life. In other words, the preborn baby has a right to life regardless of the circumstances under which he or she was conceived.

If we were to consider two infants, one conceived through marital intercourse, the other through forcible rape, would we say that one person was "more human" than the other?

Two wrongs do not make a right. A second wrong makes a bad situation worse.

Regardless of the father's identity, the woman is still the mother. The baby is still her child.

The "hard cases" represent perhaps only 1 percent of all abortions. Yet we hear about them all the time.

Jane--

I spent 11 years in a foster home. My foster sister became pregnant by our foster father (she said it was rape; he said it was consensual), and gave birth at a "Florence Crittendon Home" and gave the baby up for adoption. Our foster mother kicked her out of our home, at which time foster dad started sneaking into my room.

Thank God I was able to go to a Planned Parenthood clinic at age 16 and get counseling & birth control--I think I would have killed myself if my foster dad had made me pregnant too. Fortunately I was able to keep him away from me most of the time by spending a lot of time at friends' houses & working when he was home (he traveled a lot for his work).

Planned Parenthood saved my sanity, if not my life.

I thought you should hear about just one of the many "hard cases" you claim are so rare.

In cases of rape there is the day after pill. Rape is rape and that includes prostitues. All rapes should be reported and if someone does not want it reported, I think that the person should still be given that pill.

Dear Anonymous,

It is so heartbreaking to hear of a story such as yours.

Did you tell your story to planned parenthood at the time you were being raped by your stepfather?

He should have been arrested!

If you did, and they did not report it to law enforcement, they again were breaking the law.

Planned parenthood is notorious for keeping such things to themselves.

Check out the truth about planned parenthood.

www.childpredators.com

Truth Seeker--

No, I did not tell Planned Parenthood about my foster father. If I had, and he had been arrested, I might have had to leave my school, friends, job, everything I had--the only stability I knew at the time. The people at Planned Parenthood treated me kindly and reassured me that I would never have to worry about becoming pregnant unless I chose to be. Abortion was never mentioned, just preventing an unwanted pregnancy.

At that time in my life, I believe that Planned Parenthood was heaven-sent.

Jane, thank you for pointing me to the letter to Reagan, I found it on the net and read it in its entirety. I think that 1984 is a bit outdated, but I do not this that it is very relevant to my point. I am still wondering whether or not there is a consensus among doctors on this subject, because I have seen reports of "conclusive medical research" placing the first signs of pain perception by fetus at anywhere from 7 (pro-life orgs sponsored research) to 25-27 weeks. And, if the prevailing opinion is now the "end of first trimester" (14 weeks?), then the pro-life sponsored Fetal Pain Awareness Act in Congress got the wrong medical data?

My biggest question, however, is: would the use of fetal anesthesia during all abortions past 8-10 weeks solve the "torture" issue I hear so much about?

I personally find the quick procedure used in the vacuum abortion provides the fetus with no time to be exposed to a prolonged pain (given that it can feel the pain at all). I have not had an opportunity to research the actual video of that procedure, but I would estimate that the fetus has an opportunity to feel pain for maybe 40-60 seconds? If you have more accurate numbers, could you share them with me?

Quote: "Allowing abortion for cases of rape or incest effectively blames the preborn for another's (i.e. the father) crime. Killing a preborn because his or her father is a rapist is no more justifiable than killing the rapist's mother or father (perhaps even less so, in that, plausibly, a parent could have in some way influenced, caused or contributed to the son's actions. The preborn child has not yet been created; no causal influence, and therefore culpability, is possible). The perpetrator alone should be punished; punishing the preborn makes him or her a scapegoat and the second victim"

I don't think the rape victim who goes for an abortion actually blames the fetus for anything. Well, maybe some do, but that I doubt that it is the actual reason for their abortion. The actual reason is: she wants her life back. She very possibly has school, work, other children, and numerous other obligations. There is no reason for her to put all of that completely or partially on hold and to undergo all the physical, emotional, and financial strain associated with any pregnancy. She needs to concentrate on taking care of herself, and nurturing herself back to the same place she was before the rape. Having a pregnancy to deal with will make her recovery more difficult. We all know about the hormone ups and downs, and the postpartum depression, and the pre-partum depression, and on and on and on. When she is already feeling victimized, depressed, etc. , hormone changes and financial/physical strain of the pregnancy are not going to be helping.

I was raped, more than once in my life, and I think I have some personal experience with the recovery period.

Hi Elena,

There are so many ways I wish to respond to your questions ...but the blogs have already been so long. I wonder if you wouldn't consider reading this one testimony- I think it speaks volumes on many of the areas you're asking about. If it doesn't let me know and I will share the answers to the questions above.... Pour some coffee and take in this heartfelt and educational read.
www.silentnomoreawareness.org/articles/georgettereport.pdf

Thank you for the correspondences- I am grateful to share. Jane

Jane,

Thanks for the link. But I am not sure which of my questions it was supposed to answer? I am on the 4 or 5th page and I am afraid I wont have time to read through the whole thing, so, could you bemore specific, maybe the page numbers?

As I am reading "Choice or Coercion" portion of the document, it stroke me as amusing that pro-life people point to coerced abortions as, I guess, an argument againts all abortions, while working on ensuring coerced gestation both de-facto and through legislature for females who would rather abort than carry to term.

One of those little ironies of life! :)

Before I go, one last thing. I noticed they discuss breast cancer further down in the documents Jane gave me to read. I personally don't particularly worry about breast cancer (mainly because I love to tan so much that I will probably get cancer no matter what I do children-wise), but as far as I know, the American Cancer Society does not believe that abortion increases chances of cancer.

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/content/CRI_2_6x_Can_Having_an_Abortion_Cause_or_Contribute_to_Breast_Cancer.asp?sitearea=

Again, for each medical study that says yes there seems to be another that says no. Unbelievable, right? :)))

The saddest irony of life is that so many are exterminated like rodents and do not ever have a chance or a right to life as the rest of us.

All in the name of choice.

The holocaust took the lives of 6 million innocent human beings who were thought to be inferior.

Abortion has taken the lives of almost 50 million innocent human beings because their own mothers believed them to be inferior.

Planned parenthood has killed more Americans in 1 week than the entire Iraqi war has taken since it began.

What a sad society we are.

All I know is, if Planned Parenthood hadn't been there for me when I was a teenager molested by my foster father I might have become pregnant like my foster sister did. I am against abortion (partly because I was an unplanned baby), but I will always believe that the angels at Planned Parenthood who gave me birth control saved me from a much worse fate.

We need to recognize that ending a human life is wrong, but PREVENTING a woman from conceiving a life is sometimes the best choice.

And if I were in charge of things, a woman who was courageous enough to give birth after being raped would be transported to a tropical paradise and treated like a pampered queen (giving birth under general anesthesia to spare her the pain), to try to make up for the violence & disrespect she had to go through. But I don't hear any radical pro-lifers making any POSITIVE suggestions--no, it's just "the preborn has rights". How about showing some love and compassion for rape and incest victims?

Hi Elena-

In my research of the medical literature it seemed that there is not a "consensus" among physicians about fetal pain- but overwhelming research suggests that indeed unborn children feel
intense pain....

Abortion became legal in the United States before sonograms became prevalent or photos of human life in the womb were readily accessible. Abortion became legal before researchers had taken time to study the issue of fetal pain.

Mounting new scientific evidence is removing any doubt that unborn children do, indeed, feel intense pain. (Once again, the abortion industry's lies to the public have been uncovered.)

In the recent groundbreaking book, From Conception to Birth: A Life Unfolds, photographer Alexander Tsiaras displays detailed, accurate images of an unborn child at each stage from conception to birth. These images truly reveal the humanity of an unborn baby.

In a chapter describing the baby's nervous system, author Barry Werth writes, "The human nervous system has been called the world's most efficient network for transmitting messages. It begins to form at 18 days gestation and continues to develop until several weeks after birth, penetrating to the minutest regions of the body."

Despite this intricate network of sensory connections that allow unborn children to feel pain, it is still legal anywhere in the United States to use any number of brutal methods to take their lives, without any form of anesthesia for the unborn baby. Even in late-term abortions, performed when the baby is partially delivered, no pain treatment is required for these almost-born children.

Dr. Vincent Collins, M.D., a diplomat of the American Board of Anesthesiologists, stated years ago, 'As early as eight to ten weeks gestation and definitely by thirteen and a half weeks, the human fetus experiences organic pain,'".

And so Elena, regardless of whether or not the human being in utero feels pain, there is no justification for killing that person at any point in his life prior to birth. A civilized society does not kill people simply because it has been concluded that they won't feel the pain of dying. I hope this helps...

Blessings, Jane

Hi Elena- I think I'm almost done getting back to you about these issues. In regards to Breast Cancer- read from the medical groups who support the Abortion/Breast Cancer Link. The website address is below!

In 1986, government scientists wrote a letter to the British journal Lancet and acknowledged that abortion is a cause of breast cancer. They wrote, "Induced abortion before first term pregnancy increases the risk of breast cancer." (Lancet, 2/22/86, p. 436)

As of 2006, eight medical organizations recognize that abortion raises a woman's risk for breast cancer, independently of the risk of delaying the birth of a first child (a secondary effect that all experts already acknowledge). An additional medical organization, the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, issued a statement in 2003 calling on doctors to inform patients about a "highly plausible" relationship between abortion and breast cancer. General counsel for that medical group wrote an article for its journal warning doctors that three women (two Americans, one Australian) successfully sued their abortion providers for neglecting to disclose the risks of breast cancer and emotional harm, although none of the women had developed the disease.

www.abortionbreastcancer.com/medicalgroups/index.htm

Great questions, Elena!- Jane

Jane,

About fetal pain. As we have seen we both the breast cancer issue and the fetal pain issue, medical research gets pinned against medical research and a doctor's opinion gets pinned against a doctor's opinion. I, therefore, prefer not to draw conclusions based on any of them. Because choosing which one to believe would be an exercise in selective listening. Instead, my proposed solution to the problem would be to administer fetal anesthetic for all medical abortions.

Quote: "whether or not the human being in utero feels pain, there is no justification for killing that person at any point in his life prior to birth"

Well, I will disagree on that.

Jane,

Back to breast cancer. Thanks for looking up all that info, it sure saves me alot of time. I am a full time student and I have 2 tests to study for, so I am here only for a few minutes usually. So, could you do me a huge favor and look up all the medical associations (let's use USA only for now) that currently recognize the link and also all the medical associations that currently do not?

I think the possible breast cancer link is not going to be as a huge deterring factor as the pro-life would hope. People tan, people smoke, people drink, people eat highly processed fast food, pile up deep fried snacks on theirs plates, etc, and the health effects of all those things have been pretty much agreed upon by most of the doctors I know. I, for example, tan every summer, and every summer my husband tells me, "You gonna die from the skin cancer, you know." I usually agree but it never stops me from going back to the pool day after day. Now, abortion - I did mine mainly for health reasons, and also because I could not stand the fetus commanding my body. Now, health and control - those are some powerful motivator. While tanning - I do it because it looks good and because it feels nice, that’s all.

If I can risk my health for a perfect tan, I can sure risk it for getting my body and life under control. But that is my opinion, I do not claim to speak for anyone else.

On the Anonymous comment: "The holocaust took the lives of 6 million innocent human beings who were thought to be inferior.

Abortion has taken the lives of almost 50 million innocent human beings because their own mothers believed them to be inferior."

Anonymous, although the comparison of abortion to Holocaust is widespread, I would like to notice that I have never personally seen any holocaust survivor or children/relatives of holocaust survivors to enter an abortion discussion to support this point of view. However, all 4 times I have seen a holocaust survivor (or a member of a family) enter an abortion discussion, it was usually to warn people against using this comparison. They all insisted that minimizing the horrors of the holocaust by using abortion (or any hot button political topics) was intolerable in their opinion.

Also notice, that John Paul II' was against such a comparison, and that ADL (Anti-Defamation League) in the US is very much unpleased people making "abortion holocaust" parallels. In Germany, members of clergy using this comparison have been given jail time, if I am not mistaken. I am sure that won't stop YOU from making these comparisons, but at least I fulfilled my duty by informing you about the feelings of many real halocaust victims on this subject.

Quote: "Abortion has taken the lives of almost 50 million innocent human beings because their own mothers believed them to be inferior."

And let me address one more thing here: I personally do believe in fetus' inferiority to the mother. Until it is removed from the body, the fetus functions as a parasite. Since it is dependent on the host, it is secondary, or inferior, to the host. So, that's my viewpoint.

Quote: "And if I were in charge of things, a woman who was courageous enough to give birth after being raped would be transported to a tropical paradise and treated like a pampered queen (giving birth under general anesthesia to spare her the pain)"

Thank you very much for bringing up this point, Anonymous. I never, ever seen a single pro-lifer mentioning the pain of the childbirth or the damaging effects of pregnancy on the woman's body. However, the fetus' pain and sufferings, and the abortions's side effects are never left out of the conversation. How come?

In case anyone asks me, what pregnancy side effects I am talking about, here is the list again (I have posted it on this forum before, but it was a while ago):
Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

* exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
* altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
* nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
* heartburn and indigestion
* constipation
* weight gain
* dizziness and light-headedness
* bloating, swelling, fluid retention
* hemmorhoids
* abdominal cramps
* yeast infections
* congested, bloody nose
* acne and mild skin disorders
* skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
* mild to severe backache and strain
* increased headaches
* difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
* increased urination and incontinence
* bleeding gums
* pica
* breast pain and discharge
* swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint pain
* difficulty sitting, standing in later pregnancy
* inability to take regular medications
* shortness of breath
* higher blood pressure
* hair loss
* tendency to anemia
* curtailment of ability to participate in some sports and activities
* infection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
(pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and
are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
* extreme pain on delivery
* hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
* continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)

Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

* stretch marks (worse in younger women)
* loose skin
* permanent weight gain or redistribution
* abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
* pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life)
* changes to breasts
* varicose veins
* scarring from episiotomy or c-section
* other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
* increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
* loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)

Occasional complications and side effects:

* hyperemesis gravidarum
* temporary and permanent injury to back
* severe scarring requiring later surgery (especially after additional pregnancies)
* dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
* pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
* eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
* gestational diabetes
* placenta previa
* anemia (which can be life-threatening)
* thrombocytopenic purpura
* severe cramping
* embolism (blood clots)
* medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
* diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
* mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
* serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
* hormonal imbalance
* ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
* broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
* hemorrhage and
* numerous other complications of delivery
* refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
* aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
* severe post-partum depression and psychosis
* research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
* research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
* research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease

Less common (but serious) complications:

* peripartum cardiomyopathy
* cardiopulmonary arrest
* magnesium toxicity
* severe hypoxemia/acidosis
* massive embolism
* increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
* molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
* malignant arrhythmia
* circulatory collapse
* placental abruption
* obstetric fistula

More permanent side effects:

* future infertility
* permanent disability
* death.

Well Elena-

I give up- You are so far removed from any moral foundation that it's useless to continue these discussions. Unless you see things through the eyes of Our Creator- you'll never see how truly sad and ignorant your conclusions are...I only pray one day you will awake from your slumber. It must be so sad to only see things scientifically and not through the eyes of Faith. Oh what true Joy and Peace and CLARITY you will truly have then.

As for researching which USA Medical Associations agree on the Breast cancer/Abortion Link - you'll find that out on the website link I provided

- I think all this data, data, data search is to help you justify your own abortion. I am not judging you. I really am not But in ALL my experience in dealing with post-abortive woman, they are always trying to find a way to justify their actions...and then the day comes when reality sinks in and she realizes the innocent life that taken from her. Then comes great suffering- and with love and support from people like us and others who have experience this profound reality- then comes healing.

No need to respond....just be assured of my continued prayers for you, for your family and for your future happiness.

Peace,
Jane

Wow Elena,

Should every female stop giving birth and then the population will just cease to exist?

Why dont you list the side effects of taking oral contraception, and the side effects of abortion?

Elena,

You went to such lengths to list any and all possible "side-effects" of pregnancy and childbirth. What about the positives? Everyday you experience the total unconditional love of another human being. You get to see and share the wonder of discovery through a child's eyes. Every day I am so thankful for the joy my children have brought me and my husband. The "side effects" end, but the joy never does.

Jane,

I appreciate your patient and polite attitude. You are not only civilized, you are knowledgeble, too. I enjoyed crossing the swords with you, so to speak.

I do not pray, but I will make sure to remember you next time I make my conclusions about pro-life people, or hear someone else making too broad conclusions about pro-lifers.

It was nice meeting you. Peace to you, too!
Elena

Quote: "Wow Elena, Should every female stop giving birth and then the population will just cease to exist? Why dont you list the side effects of taking oral contraception, and the side effects of abortion?"

Truth Seeker, if you read the words I types just before that list, you will see that they say, "Thank you very much for bringing up this point, Anonymous. I never, ever seen a single pro-lifer mentioning the pain of the childbirth or the damaging effects of pregnancy on the woman's body. However, the fetus' pain and sufferings, and the abortions's side effects are never left out of the conversation. How come?"

Therefore I hoped that it would be clear to the readers that I am posting the link to support my point that pro-lifers are very insistant on pointing out the side effects of abortion while keeping dead silence on the side effects of childbirth and pregnancy, and, since there is always someone in the audience (usually a male) who will ridicule any suggestion that pregnancy can be harmful to a female body, I posted the list of the side effects.

Did I answer your question?

Quote: "Elena, You went to such lengths to list any and all possible "side-effects" of pregnancy and childbirth. What about the positives? Everyday you experience the total unconditional love of another human being. You get to see and share the wonder of discovery through a child's eyes. Every day I am so thankful for the joy my children have brought me and my husband. The "side effects" end, but the joy never does."

For you, the side effects ended. For some other women, they don't. But that is not the point.

I never intended to indicate that children don't bring joy. A wanted child can bring immense joy to the mother. And not all pregnancies have complications. Some women enjoy being pregnant and enjoy giving birth. Most women don't mind the side effects of the pregnancy because they expect the joy of having a child to override any possible downsides. So, I hope you can see that I am not trying to advocate against giving birth.

My intent behind posting the list was, I repeat, to draw attention to the fact that pro-life people never stop talking about side-effects of the abortion but never want to bring up the side effects of the pregnancy and childbirth. I think that both of those things are something that needs to be considered by a woman contemplating abortion.

Elena,

Perhaps the reason you don't hear pro-lifers talk about the side effects of pregnancy/childbirth, is that in the overall scheme of things, most seem so insignificant compared to giving life to another. It really comes down to recognizing yourself as a mother, both before and after your child is born.

My high school aged daughter just read the list of side effects you posted, and wanted to know how it would compare with every possible negative side effect of working out at the gym? Interesting viewpoint....

Melissa,

This goes both ways, as pro-choicers could point out the very same thing: how could the side effects of abortion compare with every possible negative side effect of working out at the gym?

I think it would be a big mistake to belittle the possible side effects of either (abortion or childbirth I mean). I think both needs to be clearly stated and discussed in-depth with the women who is trying to decide what to do with her pregnancy.

Also, you need to remember that no one forces you to go to the gym, and a consultation with a doctor is usually recommended before you start your fitness program. That means a doctom might recommended to start with very little strain, and then build your way up at your own pace. Or maybe he will tell you to avoid some particular types of activities while doing more of the others... This is not the case with a pregnancy. You can't adjust the intensity or the course of the pregnancy to match your health conditions.

Using your gym metaphor, you would say that the pro-life activists are trying to force all women to go through the same intense cross-training program, very often with "no exception" policy which means that even if it is clear that some aspects of the training program will cause you severe health problems, or even death, to the woman, you still won't be able to opt out.

you're comparing having a baby to a mere workout at the gym??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? seriously??????

Melissa, I do recognize myself as a mother, and I never gave much thought to the possible side-effects of pregnancy or childbirth. But if I had been a rape victim I doubt that my attitude would have been so positive. And I can definitely understand that young woman who said she would have killed herself rather than have her foster father's baby (she said that Planned Parenthood saved both her sanity and her life).

Anonymous:

Did planned parenthood report this rape as they are required to do by law?

It's my understanding (from reading earlier posts) that the young woman involved did not tell Planned Parenthood about the rape, because she was afraid that she would have to leave her school, her job, and her friends. She simply wanted to avoid having to worry about getting pregnant like her foster sister had.

Elena,

My daughter's comment about comparing the list of ALL POSSIBLE negative side effects of pregnancy/childbirth to working out at the gym was to point out how ludicrous the list was in the first place. Everything in life has risk, whether it's walking out your front door on a cold icy day, or getting in the car to drive to the store. The only difference is that with abortion, you are KILLING SOMEONE to decrease your risk. An abortion brings with it a whole other set of risk factors.

You said "how could the side effects of abortion compare with every possible negative side effect of working out at the gym?"

The effect of abortion is ALWAYS death.

if you are going to participate in this discussion i suggest you read it. she said she did not tell planned parenthood about the abuse.

i personally wish that abortion didn't exist . however if a woman i cared about felt she needed one , i would want her to have somewhere safe to go . also pragmatically , i would rather pay for an abortion once. rather than a lifetime of support for an unwanted child who is destined to go on support . and before all of you pro-lifers start your " every child's a blessing " nonsense. i know better . our family adopted a crack baby whose birth mother had SEVEN children taken away as infants and are now in foster care and state support. this is hard to say , but in my opinion those pregnancies should NOT have bee allowed to go to term. It's a hard world. abortion is unfortunately a necessary evil.

No, John evil is never a necessity. Evil is and always has been the downfall of a civilized society.

There are Alternatives to Abortion!
It's often difficult to know where to turn when you are pregnant and afraid.
These alternatives are offered to any female in a crisis pregnancy by people who love and care about each mother and the child they are carrying.

Well-meaning friends and acquaintances may recommend abortion as the easiest solution to a difficult situation. Yet we at Priests For Life have received hundreds of calls from women who have made this choice and later regretted it.

A November 1994 Reader Digest article by Mary Cunningham Agee reported that 91% of women surveyed in post-abortion interviews stated that they would have carried their child to term if the support had been there. Items most frequently mentioned were help with medical bills, ability to continue in her career or education, and most importantly, understanding from family, friends, and the father of the child.

Priests for Life wants to do what we can to help connect you with the people and resources which can make the choice for life a practical one, as well as a loving one for you and your baby, regardless of your financial or social situation.

The Church's response: Radical solidarity with the woman

Click here for a simple handout providing numbers for abortion alternatives and post-abortion counseling

OptionLine

Option Line consultants refer each caller to a pregnancy resource center in her area for answers to questions about abortion, pregnancy tests, STD's, adoption, parenting, medical referrals, housing, and many other issues. The toll-free number is available to callers 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Callers from across the country can reach a trained, caring person and then be connected to a pregnancy resource center near them for one-on-one help. Option Line is a call center located in Columbus, Ohio, formed as a joint venture between Care Net and Heartbeat International.

1-800-395-HELP or E-Mail

Birthright

Birthright has a network of almost a thousand pregnancy help centers throughout the United States, These centers offer pregnancy testing, counseling, and resources, including medical, financial, and personal assistance. The Birthright philosophy is that a woman coming in for help does not represent a "statistic", or an "issue,", but is rather a human being looking for help and support in a time of need. In addition to pregnancy help services, Birthright also provides links to doctors and others in the local community who can help a woman after the birth of her child.

1-800-550-4900

National Life Center

National Life Center's 24-hour hotline directs you to the closest Crisis Pregnancy Center in the United States and Canada.

1-800-848-LOVE

Bethany Christian Services

Bethany Christian Services is one of the nation's leading providers of adoption and crisis pregnancy support information. They operate a national hotline which is active from 8 AM to 12 PM, 7 days a week. This hotline routes callers to one of 56 local offices which can then provide local and regional information.

On-going education and support for parents are offered through our adoption support services. Bethany acknowledges that adoption is a life-long process and that adoptive families sometimes have unique issues and concerns. Bethany's adoption pre-screening and placement program is one of the most recommended in the country, and they have placed more than 11,000 children in adoptive homes. In addition, Bethany provides good community-based follow-up, both for women who choose adoption or who raise their child themselves.

1-800-BETHANY

The Nurturing Network

Some 32,000 volunteer member resources nationwide provide individually tailored practical support to college and working women with unplanned pregnancies including counseling, medical, residential, educational, employment and financial resources.

Several Sources Foundation

Several Sources Foundation provides a 24-hour crisis pregnancy help line which can connect any caller to their local pregnancy help resources, including Catholic Charities, Lutheran Social Services, and others. Their database of pregnancy help resources is one of the most complete in the nation. See for yourself at their great website!

1-800-662-2678

Gabriel Project

From the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston, Dr. Marcella Colbert directs this Catholic ministry that evangelizes and saves lives, using the local parish as the haven in which women who are pregnant and in need can hear an echo of Gabriel’s message, “You have nothing to fear!”

Blog- Misrepresentation, but no Fraud

Perhaps you'll find this as interesting as my husband and I did-
In the Sept. 12th Beacon there's a case where a 34 year old male (whose name I will not mention) of the 500 block of Liberty Street in Aurora was charged with FELONY OBSTRUCTING JUSTICE and MISDEMEANOR after he gave a FALSE NAME to an officer responding to a call for domestic violence. (We've seen a couple of the same police blotters in recent months but were unable to find them in Beacon archives.)

Hmmmmm…………………

And so here you have Gemini Medical who falsified the application submitted to the city….

And then PP who clearly lied to gov't officials- in this case the city council members who sat on the planning committee…..

SO in ONE case if you LIE to a gov't official(the police officer)-you committed a FELONY and go to jail……..

BUT if you're PP & you lied to "correct gov't officials" (mayor & city council) …well then you bamboozle all the citizens of Aurora and make a MOCKERY of the people who RIGHTFULLY go through the business permitting process - and you get to open your Monument to Fraud Clinic!!

So much for Character Counts in Aurora!

they were not lying. the gemini medical center is registered under planned parenthood. if aurora did their homework (which they probably did and knew exactly what was happening)- i.e researching exactly WHAT type of medical facility gemini was- there would not have been this "misrepresentation" problem.
you mean to tell me that aurora allows whatever kind of business to go up, as long as they have a permit? they don't research? thats a scary thought that the citizens should address.
i can see how you would compare these two instances, but it is my opinion that they are incomparable.
say i have two names- both are registered TO ME. If they search one they will find the other. it is the same with gemini. gemini and planned parenthood are one and the same, they would have found that out had they ran the name through, just as a cop would see that both names are registered to me. no fraud felony there....
do you still feel the same?
i believe the CITY of aurora is the one who is making a "MOCKERY" and "bamboozle"-ing all of you.

When I was 20/21 years old I was in college full time and lived with a committed partner who I had been with since I was 18 years old (who is now my husband of five years). I had NO insurance and utilized PPH's services. I had no other choice. It seems that people who are agains PPH need to think beyond the abortion side of things and consider the great medical contributions that the organization makes to the underinsured. I was able to access their services for my annual exams, medications, and even services that were unrelated to reproduction- they tested my Cholesterol which was high. If PPH was not accessible, I would have spent four years without basic medical treatment because I couldn't afford it (and I have a strong family history of cancer). This whole topic enrages me- Its not about "zoning" its about people trying to push their views and values on others. If you don't want YOUR children to access these services- handle it within your family, monitor their activities closely, and make sure that YOU can afford to pay for their medical insurance until they are about 23 years old! There are some of us who didn't have the benefit of insurance so who are you take take that away medical treatment from those of us who don't! I proudly support the PPH of Aurora and I am greatful for the affordable medical treatment that they once provided for me!

Planned parenthood eliminates more human beings in one week than have been lost in the entire Iraqi war so far.

The comments from the woman whose foster father abused her and her sister underscore, rather vividly, the absolute NECESSITY for some form of oversight over Planned Parenthood. Ideally, this oversight would be from the parents, whose role is to protect and nurture their children. Failing that, the courts must act in the interest of minors.

This woman, whom I am in no way blaming for the abuse she received, made an impetuous decision as a teenager to continue to endure abuse all in the name of stability. This is why teenagers are, frankly, not competent to make determinations about their welfare. Planned Parenthood did neither this girl nor her sister any favors by keeping their secret. Rather, they were accomplices after the fact who aided and abetted a monsterous man. PP was, perhaps, well intentioned, but their misguided altruism only served to enable a molester. Period.

Wow. Looks like someone bought a thesaurus.
The woman has said that she did NOT tell planned parenthood about the abuse. How are they supposed to say anything when they don't know? I suggest you actually read what this poor woman has to say, instead of making "impetuous" comments.
Also, If you have never been the victim of abuse, I would think twice about making comments like yours. Your opinion might differ slightly if you were the one being abused...

I agree with the last comment. People who has never been sexually abused, your can state your opinions on reporting sexual crimes if you wish but but I will you this: when a victim disagrees with you, you should listen! You are IMAGINING the situation you never experienced, and any imagined "model" will never be the same as the real thing. We actually been there and what we know your imagination will never tell you, so we are actually better suited to make decisions about the situation than you are. When making judgements, you think in one dimention while we think in 3, or 4, or 5...

I was raped (more than once) as a teenager, my family never found out and it was my "impetuous decision" at that time that they would never find out because it was easier for me to handle it this way. I am 28 now, and looking back at it now I can assure you that I made a right decision (decision that was right for me, that is). So please stop engaging in agesm, people, just because a teenager made a decision that you personally disagree with, it does not mean that the decision is wrong or immature, sometimes we teenagers look at you adults and silently shake our heads in disbelief of how short-sighted you can be at times, so what? Should we legally made decisions for you? It is not about the age. Some 15-years olds are more mature than some 35 years olds.

AT said that "Planned parenthood eliminates more human beings in one week than have been lost in the entire Iraqi war so far."

I don't believe that's close to being true. The latest credible count that I've seen is that 76,000 to 83,000 civilians have been killed. http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/ Add 3,000+ U.S. military, plus Iraqi military, plus allied military, and I think that way surpases the 5,900 abortions performed by Planned Parenthood per week.