Mr. Q,
You should make your post on an active post if you expect bloggers to see it. I would suggest you make this post on the Napergate blog which seems to be very active and in which this specific issue is being considered.

Maybe I will do you a favor and repost it on the Napergate thread.

I do not think the moderator will object!

Barry, where is CONPA located at, Montgomery Rd & Rt 59?

Anyone interested in joining CONPA [citizens observing naperville police activities] is invited ,the more the merrier. By reading the past year blogs it is obvious,1) something is wrong inside NPD. the number for u.s. att'y 312-353-5300. NAPERVILLIANS you better get ready cause MORE federal civil rights violation claims are coming to your city.You can be part of the solutions or stick your head back in the ground. In otherwords $$$$$$$$$. To join C.O.N.P.A. call 815.242.0019,yes,you can make THE difference!

Anon -

I agree with you that the accusations against DF are just that--only accusations.

However, I do not dismiss the accusations because "the staff who complains a bunch of cry-babies". The accusations should be taken seriously. If I treated people at work the way DF is alleged to have done, I would have been fired long ago.

Saying "welcome to the real world of having the feeling that your job may be in jeopardy if you don't do a good job" applies to DF, too, and is also misleading. DF is not accused of abusing people who weren't doing a good job. DF is accused of abusing people for not doing exactly what DF wanted them to do, even if it was within their jurisdiction to do so.

T.B.

When I become Mayor, my first act will be to reel Dick Furstenau in. The mean little bugger yells at me for being homeless. He likes to snap me with a wet towel when im not looking. He takes my lunch money, and three times, he has given me a wedgie!!! Dick must go!!! Scott Huber for Mayor!!!!

mrs q

it clear why the trotsky incident is involved in this discussion:

many people against councilman furstenau continually state that the corruption that would need to exist within the NPD in order for his lawsuit to be true is highly unlikely. they state that corruption in the NPD doesn't exist, and that chief dial and others would never stoop to such tactics. this incident displays that, in some ways, the chief and other NPD officers are capable of doings things that wouldn't be considered "above board". does it prove furstenau is right? no. but it should open the door to consideration that he may be right and it should destroy that argument.

the fact is furstenau hasn't had his day in court, in a way. the cops did have their day. they accused him of wrong-doing and had an opportunity to prove it in court and they failed. furstenau now alleges that the NPD engaged in some illegal activities to get him into court, and now he should have his chance in court to prove his case, just as the NPD did. that is fair. ti doesn't matter if you think he is a jerk. it's irrelevant.

you can call furstenau a bully all you want but it doesn't change the fact he has never been accused of anything illegal at city hall. he has only been accused of being too bold and forceful at times. you can call him a bully and i'll call the staff who complains a bunch of cry-babies. welcome to the real world of having the feeling that your job may be in jeopardy if you don't do a good job.

keep in mind, many or all of the complaints against furstenau are unsubstantiated. they represent one side of a story. many of which were newly documented and back-dated. furstenau still has not had a chance to dispute the allegations. there is no proof they are all true. in fact, at the council meeting where furstenau was censured, one of the people who spoke in open forum was one of the people that burchard referred to in his open letter. it was a developer who burchard claimed, in his letter about furstenau, was bankrupt. that developer spoke in open forum that night stating that burchard was lying and that the allegations against him personally about being bankrupt were totally untrue. so here you have another gentleman involved in accusations in burchard's letter claiming burchard was lying about him too. yet furstenau was never given a chance to address any of the accusations. furstenau has stated that a few of the accusations in burhard's letter were false, and that some of the others contained some truth, but were also misleading because they left out key points and represented only one side of the story

so go ahead and continue to call furstenau a bully over false, partially true or unsubstantiated claims. after you do, you should hope and pray that no one ever takes the chance to publicly smear you with accusations that aren't true. then you can see how it must feel after you are never given a chance to defend yourself.

also keep in mind that there are a small handful who would say dick treats people like dirt and thousands who say he is a champion for them. the only people dick treats like dirt are one who suck at their job and drag their feet and probably deserve it.

Why do you bloggers need to drag Sgt. Trotsky's incident into the DICK incident. I think some of you are getting way off base here. The bottom line is DICK treats people like dirt, he IS the school yard bully, and it finally caught up with him. Sgt. Trotsky had his day in court, much like DICK did...so lets move on

Taxpayer (anon)-

Do a degree, I agree with you.

T.B.

ANT,
Contacting interal affairs of the NPD is like trying to talk to China if you don't speak Chinese!

You may have a Napergate of sorts going on in internal affairs. Maybe a Watergate is more like it! Those guys would never investigate a police officer who abused a civilian.

Do you really think they would ever admit to anything and subject themselves to a lawsuit?? Who are you trying to kid ANT? Only a cop would make such a statement about contacting Internal Affairs.
No civilian would make such a statement as most civilian know better. It is time the NPD stopped playing dumb and respected the intelligence of its citizens.

It has been well known for years that Internal Affairs of the NPD is a farce!!!

Did they ever disciplince the officer who framed the Napergate Guy for running a legitimate sting operation? Of course not!
He even got a ruling from the Illinois Appellant Court that the officer abused his authority and discretion. So even with a ruling from a very high court, Internal Affairs will not discipline a police officer.

The NPD thinks we residents are gullible...lol...!!

internal affairs already is aware of all of it and they don't do squat. the police need to be held accountable by someone other than police.

I would encourage people to make sure they have the facts before naming police officers and making false allegations regarding arrest or conduct. It sure would be nice to see some lawsuits filed for the nameless bloggers who make misleading,ridiculous allegations against police officers. If you know of misconduct, please contact the internal affairs division and it will be investigated.

tb

i understand your point, but my main point isn't that there was a blood test, it is more about the fact that dial knew he was drunk and publicly stated trotsky was not drunk and attacked the officer who arrested him and tried to fire him for "targeting" trotsky and arresting him for being drunk when he wasn't. all along dial knew trotsky was drunk and he publicly smeared knight and tried to fire him over doing the right thing.

i also believe that if you are a cop and you the #1 dui writer on the force, as trotsky is, you should have to submit to a dui blood test and the results should be able to be used in court. i guarantee that if the test was negative, trotsky would have allowed it to be used in court to clear him. therefore, if it is positive it should also be used against him. you can't administer that test and only use it for one side.

but again, im more upset by dial smearing knight, trying to fire knight and finally disciplining knight publicly while he knew knight did the right thing all along.

Taxpayer, Mrs PD, and Anon –

OK, reading the past posts on the Trotsky affair, I think I know what happened.

Trotsky, like anyone else, has a right against self-incrimination. He can decline to assist in an investigation against himself.

However, Trotsky works for the NPD so the NPD can force Trotsky to cooperate, say with a blood test. But, in the eyes of the courts, such an admission (for lack of a better word) would be considered coerced and could only be used for internal purposes and punishment. The courts deem things like being told “do this or you’ll be fired” as not being made of your own free will.

So does it suck that the blood test couldn’t be used in court? Yes. But if not for the NPD forcing Trotsky to give the blood, I doubt a test would ever have existed.

T.B.

That post from 01/16 at 11:55 AM was me... sorry for it coming across as Anonymous.

mrs. pd

let me make one thing clear through our debate to support you position: i am not attempting, in any way, to characterize the entire NPD as a corrupt organization. i believe the NPD as a whole is good department and a very large majority of the npd are honest men and women of integrity. however, there are some who do abuse their power and who are corrupt.

the point is that furstenau's suit alleges that a couple of cops did some dirty things, and many people against furstenau refuse to believe the NPD has officers who would stoop to such things. they say that their interaction with npd has been professional and courteous. i don't doubt that at all, but they shouldn't discount the fact that corruption does exist within a small minority of the personnel. it would be naive to believe that.

the way i see it the cops believed furstenau did something illegal. they arrested him and had a chance to prove it in court and they failed. furstenau now things the cops did some things illegal against him and violated his civil rights, and he now should have a chance to prove it in court. sounds fair to me.

the fact is there are several incidents where the NPD was wrong (just as any police dept. would have some issues. im not trying to single out the NPD) and chief dial instead of doing the right thing and holding the officers involved accountable, chose to cover it up. if you are a clean cop and you cover for a dirty cop, in my opinion, that makes you a dirty cop too.

unfortunately i also know of some things that involve the mayor having knowledge of things and he too didn't do the right thing. he chose to assist in covering them up. after all he is a cop and you don't go against other cops. its against the code just as chief dial made clear.

Taxpayer,

I really can't participate any further than I have with you on this particular issue because I don't know all of the details. I don't know what happened behind closed doors as far as punishment/s. And I only know about the animosity between Trotsky and Knight from gossip, so I discount much of it, and I don't want to participate in further gossip. That would make me just as bad.

Honestly, I don't disagree with everything you have to say. I also don't agree with all of it either and no matter what I say, I have a feeling you won't agree with me.

Anon Guy: Sorry to break up my response to you, but I just wanted to you know that I did not ignore your comment about police overtime and your disgust for it - but I have addressed that issue way back when I first started participating - what my opinion is & about why it is happening on the patrol level.

To The Real Anon Guy - again.

You did say something really important though - "and everyone was required to take an accurate breathlyzer".

I sure would love to see that be a requirement! That sure would clear up a lot of issues.

To The Real Anon Guy,

I really don't want to get into a debate with you about the honesty or lack of, of police officers. I don't agree or disagree with you because I would guess some of what you say COULD be true. I do not however, agree with your assessment that this might be true of the majority of officers - or how you state "especially" NPD. Just my personal opinion.

Perhaps it IS out of my personal experience. I have gone on ride alongs and I have made a point of learning what they look for as a probable cause. Truthfully, on these ride alongs I have observed, I learned that I would make a terrible police officer, because I would be pulling over MORE people - and for less probable cause! :)

MY POINT TO THIS POSTING IS THIS:
My problem is that all too often here, I read these postings and I have to say that I do not like how people lump agencies together and then lump the people in them together. Officers are individuals, not Lemmings ready to jump off the cliff together.

That being said, I am learning every day more and more about this city and how things are working - and broken, too. I have a ton of things to learn, but I'm also finding out that the more I learn, the angrier I'm getting about how things are running.

I don't know what REALLY happened with Furstenau. Only Furstenau and Officer Hull REALLY know, and they each would have their own interpretation of the event, I'm sure. My problem is NOT with Furstenau's suit, but whether he should be sitting on our City Council while this is pending? Or maybe that he should step back from certain voting issues?

I am also finding that as I learn more about our City Council, some of our Council-persons seem to have a lot of conflicting ties so when it comes to voting on certain issues perhaps they should be stepping aside? This all reminds of the "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon" (based on the theory that any actor/actress can be linked back to him) - everyone seems to have some tie to something; and it doesn't seem good!

So here I am, lumping this group together, but I'm still on my quest to learn more!

mrs pd

thanks for the discussion and the agreement on most points. the one point i will disagree with you about is your point about an employer taking a drug test. of course an employer doesn't hand a positive drug test over, nor should they because the test wasn't issued as part of a criminal investigation.

the big difference here is that trotsky's employer is the NPD and their job is to enforce the law and INVESTIGATE THE CRIMES they arrest people for. the reason the test was administered was as part of an investigation into an arrest for a criminal act. i don't care if it is part of an "internal investigation", their job is to investigate the crime. they can't have it both ways. those test results should have been given to the states attorney's office whether it was positive or negative.

if that test was positive (and i know it was the same way i knew one was done) and they punished him internally for it that is good. he should be punished internally for a dui. but trotsky should also be subject to the same court and justice system we all are. i think it is wrong that the cops who's job it is to uphold and enforce the law, to be aware of such information and allow him to get off for a dui in the court system. he should have ended up with a dui on his record, as anyone else would, and he should also be punished internally.

the fact he didn't get a dui tells me the cops "pulled strings" to get him preferential treatment.

but the part of the story that really disgusts me is that the chief wanted to fire the officer who arrested trotsky for the dui and he launched a public smear campaign against him in the press. the position dial took as the chief of police was that trotsky was not drunk and that sgt. knight was out to get him and badgering him, while all along dial knew trotsky was, in fact, drunk. that whole thing was a lie and a smoke screen to deflect attention from the truth and was TOTALLY UNFAIR to srg knight. all dial did was send a message to all the other cops that you don't arrest fellow cops, even if it is legit, or their will be repercussions. that is the wrong stance for any police chief to take. the chief should be willing to support the enforcement of the law equally to all citizens whether they are cops or not.

Mrs. Police Officer,
The reason many citizens get off of DUI cases is because most police, not all, but most embelish and sometimes fabricate their reports.

I have had many conversations with DUI attorneys who are mostly ex-State Attorneys and each and everyone told me that this is a common practice in most police depts. including and especially Naperville.

For example a polic officer can stop a citizen for suspician unrelated to a DUI to ask him a question about say suspects unrelated to the stop.

However if the police smells alcohol, and he feels likes issuing a DUI, he needs to come up with some probable cause that will stand up in court. He may fabricate that he saw the driver weaving, rolling slowing thru a stop sign, or not putting his turn signal within 100 ft. of a an intersection if he turned.

In Chicago when such a situation develops, the cop calls the drunk driver a cab rather than embelish or fabricate police records.

In Naperville when this scenario, happens a Naperville cop or quite a few of them would embelish or fabricate the probable cause knowing in almost all cases the Judge would believe them over the DUI offender.

I have no respect for drunk drivers....make no mistake here.
But I have less respect for Naperville Police Officers and others who would embelish and fabricate records to make sure the DUI sticks. A sworn police officer lying and fabricating in most cases is much more dangerous than an alcoholic who could be thrown in a cab and sent home without hurting anyone. Hopefully, the next morning he could be appreciative to the police and change his behavior.

I am only speaking in cases where there is no probable cause for the stop. Where there is probable cause, by all means issue the DUI, DWI and all related charges.

So the reason many attorneys are able to get many DUI offenders off, is because the officers embelished, fabricated and lied.

Naperville Police have the highest DUI rate in the state. Not because they are the best but becasue they CHEAT often and repeatedly.(kind of like Barry Bonds does to get his 800 HRs the NPD cheats to get its 800 DUIs) We are one of the wealthiest towns in the USA and as you correctly noted almost all of our vehicles do not have vehicular cameras activated on DUI stops.

I am pretty sure the reason for this is not money, but in order that the embelishment, fabrications, and lying don't bring felonies to the NPD officers and subsequent long jail terms.

Besides having second hand knowledge of this, I have some first hand knowledge from personal experiences. My personal experience is not from receiving a DUI and I have never received a DUI. I thought I would state that before bloggers jumped on me and said how would you know since you were intoxicated.

Mrs. Police Officer has shown her credibilty over and over again on these blogs. Many people have nominated her for their favorite blogger.

I hope she can shed some light here. I suspect her husband is not one of those who would embelish or fabricate police reports. Knowing what I know of Mrs. Police Officer, I suspect she is a tough woman that would divorce her husband if he ever fabricated a police report. So I am not speaking of her husband, but other NPD officers who actually do such things repeatedly and often.

This embelishment is well known in DUI courts by judges, prosecutors and defense attorneys. It is pretty much the reason we have DUI courts. If police officers wrote honest reports and everyone was required to take an accurate breathlyzer, we would really not need DUI courtrooms which are full of "drama" and a waste of taxpayer money.

While it may seem to the naive citizen that a DUI courtroom is to protect the rights of citizens, it is more to control and and try to delete the embelishment by police officers in their reports.

So yes, Mrs. Police Officer while some people refuse to take the breathlyzer and get off.....something I agree with you is disgusting... I hope you agree with me that the police officers who are embelishing police reports with a smirk on their face are much worse than these DUI offenders. They are felons! And not some of them like DUI offenders get off, but each and everyone of them gets off while being paid OVERTIME at resident's expense. That I find very DISGUSTING and OBJECTIONABLE. Sorry to give you the bad news, Mrs. Police Officer, but I think it is important both sides be presented and the truth be known by all.

Sorry, I must have done something to make that post twice.

NOTE from Ted Slowik, host:

Mrs.,

That's weird. It only shows up once on our end, but I clearly see it twice on the site. That's a new one for me, and it's just as likely if not more so a quirk on our end rather than anything you did.

Taxpayer, In some ways I agree with you, actually.

But if we look at this from a perspecitve of how the laws are written, anyone stopped because they are suspected of DUI can refuse to take the sobriety tests and they can also refuse to take a breath test and/or blood test. It's your right to refuse. I don't know for a fact, but I would guess he refused - ?

How do you KNOW the test was positive? Let me ask this; if your employer makes you take a drug test for your job and it's positive, do you get arrested or do you get disciplined or reprimanded? I'm not saying it's right, but that's really the way it does work - everywhere.

And, if you don't think that people refuse the tests and get off, go to court and sit in on some DUI cases... It happens all the time & it's really disgusting.

Taxpayer, In some ways I agree with you, actually.

But if we look at this from a perspecitve of how the laws are written, anyone stopped because they are suspected of DUI can refuse to take the sobriety tests and they can also refuse to take a breath test and/or blood test. It's your right to refuse. I don't know for a fact, but I would guess he refused - ?

How do you KNOW the test was positive? Let me ask this; if your employer makes you take a drug test for your job and it's positive, do you get arrested or do you get disciplined or reprimanded? I'm not saying it's right, but that's really the way it does work - everywhere.

And, if you don't think that people refuse the tests and get off, go to court and sit in on some DUI cases... It happens all the time & it's really disgusting.

mrs pd

thank you for corroborating my story that there was a test done. i was a little off about the parameters under which it was done, but i was accurate about the fact it was administered by th NPD. if you recall the news coverage at the time, chief dial was asked repeatedly by the SUN about information like a blood test and he would only respond by saying "it is part of an internal investigation, and we do not comment on internal investigations". funny how the cops will throw allegations all over the place to the press about furstenau's (or any citizen's) incident when it happens, but refuses to do the same when one of their own officers are arrested. maybe someone should police the police.

nevertheless there was a test done as part of an internal investigation AND IT WAS POSITIVE. he was driving drunk and the cops knew it and he didn't end up with a dui because they buried it.

as far as repercussions all around, if the NPD quietly punished trosky for driving under the influence because they knew it was true, as a result of a positive blood test, but used their power to hid evidence and get him off the hook for a dui, then they too should be punished. HARSHLY. it don't care if he was off duty. any normal citizen would have ended up with a dui WITHOUT EXCEPTION. they abused their power to give him preferential treatment. that is WRONG.

trotsky's dui test is not part of his medical history and not subject to hippa regulations. i suppose they didn't submit the positive test to the da office because trotsky didn't give his permission to share his medical information. (yeah right. give me a break) but go ahead and continue to deflect attention from the fact the cops buried a dui for a fellow officer and try to blame me for not respecting hippa regulations that don't apply.

tb

you know how these blogs go, i retire for a couple weeks then decide one day to see what it looks like. getting off the blog is similar to how jerry seinfeld describes breaking up. its like tipping over a coke machine - you don't do it in one big push, you rock it back and forth until it eventually falls. i find i do ok as long as i stay away from joe.

if i were to call the da office and make all these allegations, i suppose i would just get hammered the same way furstenau is. those in charge would simply protect themselves by trying to destroy me and any of the credibility of the allegations by lying and saying there never was a test done, etc. and then publicly destroy me. it is a winless battle.

Taxpayer:
Number one: If you know people who work for the city and the hospital, and you work in the medical field, SHAME ON YOU for passing along someone else's medical information without their permission. Isn't there a law against that??

As far as the rest of your knowledge - there was a blood test, but it was done as part of an internal investigation and was not made public and was not admissable as evidence in the case. That's how the city does it, Taxpayer. Trotsky was not on duty at time of this incident - and right or wrong, whatever was done to whom by whom, there were reprocussions all around. You don't know it all - .

Taxpayer -

If your sources are to be believed, I would recommend that you and your sources contact the States Attorney's Office regarding obstruction of justice. Obviously, the Asst State's Attorney was not aware of this test or he would have used it.

I thought you retired?

T.B.

this is taxpayer. my computer has stopped storing my name and email address and im too lazy to continue to type it in every time i post.

i do know, for a fact, trotsky was tested, and i also know that the test was positive. what happened after that and why it didn't end up in court is the speculation. although, when it came back positive, there was no talk of contamination.

i find it easier to believe the test was covered up by the NPD and not just "contaminated". the fact it didn't show up in court tells the story. you can continue to make excuses for why it didn't but the fact remains that if it was negative you can bet the farm it would have shown up as trosky's first piece of evidence.

i also know, for a fact, the test was taken nearly 2 hours after the arrest and it still came back positive.

you will certainly ask how i know. i know people who work for the city, and i personally work in the medical field and know many people who work at the hospital he was tested.

Confused -

I have no idea who is writing as anonymous or if it is more than one person. I don't think this anon is Taxpayer...he was more logical.

Joe -

Not to beat a dead horse, I agree that labs do make mistakes. But even a mistake would have been brought up by the defense as "evidence" that Knight was trying to frame Trotsky to settle a personal vendetta. Lawyers tend to notice when evidence is missing as that is at least a symptom of a larger issue.

I don't recall reading and have yet to find any print regarding missing blood work or inadmissible evidence in this case. I think that would have definitely made the papers as the evidentiary hearing itself would have been news.

But as I stated in my previous post, the city's rules regarding their employees surely pertain to their conduct while on the job, not when they are on their own personal time.

I'll try to check back here later if you reply, but am trying to wean myself off this thread as it has fallen off the main page.

T.B.

There could have been errors with the sample (contamination, mishandling by a 3rd party, etc) that would have made any test results (positive or negative) be deemed inadmissible due to lack of reliability and therefore, useless by either party.

Labs do make plenty of mistakes and such a happening would also fit the 'facts' of the case.

TB,
I hope you know you are dealing with 2 different anonymous bloggers here that came in at the end.

The first one is truly anonyous.

The second one is TAXPAYER being ANONYMOUS 2. I just hope your realize that.

Having said that I enjoyed seeing Taxpayer pop up. He is great for discussion and debate.

I believe when he disappeared the Napergatians disappeared as only he has close contacts with Furstenau and can address issues like campaign contributions.

Since this blog disappeared from the front page, it is doubtful that any Napergatians saw the defense Taxpayer(Anonymous 2) put up for Furstenau on this blog regarding contributions. I believe if they did they would be encouraged to return to blogging. I think they are in hiding until the facts come up and unfortunately unless taxpayer goes to a newer thread they will be clueless how to defend Furstenau.

Taxpayer should not be in hiding. My suspician is his Napergatian friends need his input.

I wish the Sun would have removed that thread with only one blogger and kept this one. But that was their decision and we have to live with it.

Sorry, Anon, but the only thing we agree on was that Trotsky was pulled over and found not guilty. I think the evidence you site to support what you “know” is speculation.

I don’t believe, but maybe you could correct me, that refusing a field sobriety test results in an automatic DUI. I believe it results in an automatic suspension of your driver’s license, but the DUI still must be proven in court.

What, exactly do you know about the city requirement for employees to be blood tested when they are suspected of a DUI? You stated that “ALL city employees to take a mandatory blood test for suspicion of dui, or drinking on the job. trotsky was taken to the hospital and was tested.” I have never heard of any business or municipality that requires workers to be blood tested unless they are suspected of DUI or drinking while ON THE JOB. Those are the key words here and they’re yours. I highly doubt any city employee (especially one represented by a police union) signed away his rights by accepting a job with the city. By being off duty, Trotsky did not have to be tested.

So, do you KNOW he was blood tested, or are you assuming it based on your interpretation of the rule? I’m not convinced that you’re just making an assumption here.

Also, your second reason for the evidence of the “lost” blood results doesn’t make any sense. You’re right to say that if an alleged test came back negative it would be the #1 issue for the defense. What you fail to realize is that even if the alleged test results were positive, the fact that the prosecution could not find the results would also be issue #1 with the defense. The prosecutors have to disclose their evidence to the defense. Once the prosecution said they were unable to find evidence, the defense would have claimed that the prosecutors had lost exculpatory evidence. The fact that blood results weren’t mentioned does not mean they were taken and lost, it is more likely this means they never existed.

Yes, what happened was his fellow cops took the stand and not only stated that Trotsky was not drunk, but also stated that Knight and Trotsky did not get along, and that Knight had made derogatory comments against Trotsky in the past. Knight had at least the appearance of bias and that, combined with the other officers, was enough to give the judge doubt about the case.

By the way, the cops testifying on Trotsky’s defense were not only from NPD, but also other departments. I don’t know how this case falls under your professional courtesy theory because how do you then explain how Knight got thrown under the bus? The witnesses weren’t just testifying for another cop, they were also testifying against another cop.

I am not being naïve, so give up that accusation. I just happen to think that the Trotsky case is not the poster child for professional courtesy.

T.B.

tb

trotsky was pulled over for driving on the wrong side of the yellow line. your facts regarding much of what was reported are right on. you're right that he refused the dui test at the time he was pulled over. what would that mean for an ordinary citizen, automatic dui. however, what wasn't reported is there is a requirement of ALL city employees to take a mandatory blood test for suspicion of dui, or drinking on the job. trotsky was taken to the hospital and was tested.

how do i know this test was taken and lost? well a couple of reasons. first of all, i know one was taken - it is a rule for city employees. if it wasn't taken, that itself is an inappropriate cover up by the NPD for failing to make him take a test. second - was that blood test offered as evidence for either side in the case? NO it wasn't. if the test came back negative, you could be CERTAIN it would have been evidence #1 in trotsky's defense. the investigators at the NPD would have never "lost" it. it would have been their main evidence. in fact, if the test had come back negative, charges would have been dropped and trotsky would have never gone to court at all.

the fact we know he had a test, and a "positive" test wasn't used as evidence against him by the prosecution, and a "negative" test wasn't used to clear him tells you that it was lost. the test was performed under the direction of the NPD just as it would in a normal investigation. so they would have been the ones who "lost" it or failed to turn it over to the DA office. and you can bet they would not have "lost" it if it was negative and would have resulted in charges being dropped or clearing trotsky.

what happened instead was his fellow cops took the stand, aware of the test, and lied under oath that he was sober. then the cops, lead by the chief, launched a smear campaign against Knight in the press by bringing up old incidents knight was involved in and had already received discipline for. do you remember that? then dial tried to use these old incidents, for which knight had already been disciplined, as an excuse to have him fired (while the real reason all along was to punish him for arresting trotsky and not letting him go). there was a back-lash to firing knight for old allegations after he did the right thing to pull trotsky over and arrest him even though he was a cop. after the dust settled, knight wasn't fired but dial insisted on disciplining him in a lesser way.

one of the reasons i support furstenau's suit is the fact im aware of some of these types of details for many different incidences, and i wouldn't put it past dial and the NPD for doing what furstenau is accusing them of. it is naive to simply say, "that kind of thing would never happen in naperville." it does happen in naperville, and it happens more than you think.

Anon -

I never alleged that DF had been bought. I was merely pointing out to some of the Napergate alums that these types of donations continue to flow today. It has been stated or alleged in this thread and others that the contributions I mentioned stopped after the Napergate Man exposed Rosanova’s acceptance of developers’ money.

I’m just wondering what the Napergate people think about DF accepting the same type of contributions.

Maybe you know something about the Sgt Trotsky arrest I don’t, but I’ve never heard or read where there was a blood test taken (and “lost”) from Trotsky following his arrest for DUI by Sgt Knight.

I recall that Trotsky refused a field sobriety test, Knight and Trotsky apparently disliked each other, and that other officers did not think Trotsky was drunk. Ultimately, “The judge said the other officer's observations showed there was nothing to support Knight's filing of DUI charges” [quote taken from cbs2chicago.com]. Not to get you started, but…

T.B.

furstenau has the right to take contributions from whom ever he would like. if you look at the other councilman's contributions, you will find donations from many or all of the same developers. the important consideration is: did this contribution "buy" their votes. the answer is NO.

all you need to do to decide if a councilman's vote is bought is look into how they vote on the proposals they are involved in. i think anyone who is aware of votes on the council would agree that furstenau is BY FAR the toughest on developers and building projects. Just look at the most controversial votes over the last 7 or 8 years. he and Krouse are the 2 that vote against developers and for the wishes of citizens who organize protest more often than anyone else.

about the post regarding accusations in burchards letter, if you read furstenau's response to those allegations you will see that he accused the city of dragging their feet because the developer had done everything the city asked them to do over a 4 year period and they still hadn't been able to get anything approved. the developer states that there were times that the requirements that were given to him from several city employees were inconsistent and inaccurate. he was told by some people that he didn't need to do certain things, only to find out from other people that he did. he was basically given the run around for 4 years. by the way, does anyone know about burchard's connection to the same property? there is one. does anyone here who thinks burchard is a saint know what that connection is? furstenau said another similar project in bolingbrook took 2 years to complete while in naperville it was 4 years and running in the approval process.

as for cops offering professional courtesy, don't get me started. there are too many to bring up. some of them include the mayor. so don't believe that the mayor is as honest and ethical as you think. he is a former cop and he has covered the npd more than once when they have done something wrong. once a cop, always a cop. all those who want to dispute me on that can start by defending officer trotsky and his dui arrest and blood test which "disappeared". when you can defend that appropriately, we will move onto the next one.

Southwest Naperville Taxpayer -

Thanks for the info. I saw the donations from the Physicians Owned LLC, but did not know who they were. It seems DF was in bed with the developers as much as any other councilman was.

Just where are all the Napergate people now?!?

T.B., Joe, & Anon,

Did you notice the very large donations to Citizens for Furstenau's state campaign from Physician's Owned LLC? That is one of the developers of Naperville Crossing at Rt. 59 & 95th St. that Burchard wrote about in his letter.

Here is what Burchard wrote:
"Over the last two years or more, Councilman Furstenau has had at least 25 conversations and meetings with me and other city staff regarding the development of Naperville Crossings. Typically, the conversations focused on his support for one of the developers of this project and his adamant disagreement with city engineering staff regarding our rejection of the developer's civil engineering plans and related issues such as the infamous dirt pile.

"These accusations culminated in a series of events in May, 2007. In early May, Councilman Furstenau and one of the developers of the project held a series of small meetings with other councilmen to discuss Councilman Furstenau's conclusion that city staff was engaged in an intentional effort to drag their feet and not approve this developer's portion of the project.

"Indeed, in an e-mail to me dated May 8, 2007, Councilman Furstenau made it clear that it was he, and not the developer who "accused the city staff of dragging their feet."

"Once again, when asked by me directly if he had any proof that city staff was "dragging their feet," Councilman Furstenau said "no" and he added that there must be a reason why staff won't approve these plans. Councilman Furstenau refused to acknowledge the professional engineering duty to approve only plans that comply with our standard development practices."

Interesting?

Anon, your answers:

1) What do you think the reaction of the Napergatians will be when they find out that Furstenau accepted 2000 dollars from Brestal for his State Election Campaign?

ME: I honestly do not know because I have yet to find a true consistent platform from anyone posting here as to what they actually stand for. Everything I try to investigate I dig up hypocrisy or half-truths or conspiracy theories without any basis. So, I do not know if their loyalties are to a person or to a set of ideals. Without knowing that, I can not predict what they will do or think.

Example: DF got an 8 million refund from the water commission and it was said that he was the SOLE person who wanted to refund them and later through his awesomeness he persuaded a majority of council to vote to approve the refund back to the taxpayers (possibly paraphrased, but we know the story, right?)

THEN, We plunk how much of taxpayer money for the musical phallic symbol that was supposed to be paid for by a private organization? Uh. Ok.
Also, how many times does DF get outvoted in council? If more than one, then I have to ask why he can not use his awesomeness from the above scenario (water refund) to sway council yet again to do what he wants them to do? It supposedly worked once and he took an astonishing amount of credit, why not again for something else? It's just a bunch of inconsistencies like that which make it difficult to see where exactly the platform sits.

2) Do you think Furstenau was hoping no one would ever find out about this contribution when he accepted it?

ME: Again, I don't know what people think. Some do things in a reactionary style without really thinking beyond the moment. I'm more than willing to even give DF the benefit of the doubt that he might not have known at the time who was accepting donations from where. This is why one must take the time to (with strong leadership) lay down the law with supporters about what is acceptable conduct and what is not acceptable conduct. What is permissible and what to steer away from. Absent of that what tends to happen is that groups end up with bunches of people that seem to be on the same page but each is pushing through their own agenda all under the cloak of a unified front... not good. In the business world, think of it as each department manager running their department like it was the entire company and there's no cohesion or unification (the CEO and COO's job) to work towards the common goals while at the same time upholding them and being the example of them.

Anon -

I went to the State site, but searched "campaign disclosure" by "candidate" not "committee" as Joe did. Search under DF's name and then select the state elections committee. There doesn't seem to be much activity on the city side, but I can't recall when DF last ran for re-election.

Yes, the Brestal donation was for his state run as, I believe, are the rest. Not all the names are on the same form as the forms appear to be for six-month periods plus also annual forms. Check out a few forms and you'll find all the names I listed, plus individuals who I did not list because I don't know their affiliation, and also other non-development type businesses such as The Lantern.

I agree-the Napergate people do seem to have gone quiet lately.

Taxpayer said something on another thread about retiring. No idea if he/she was serious.

Joe,
You confused me as you were a little vague!

Let me ask you 2 questions?

1. What do you think the reaction of the Napergatians will be when they find out that Furstenau accepted 2000 dollars from Brestal for his State Election Campaign?

2. Do you think Furstenau was hoping no one would ever find out about this contribution when he accepted it?

He had to know the Napergate Man dumped Rosanova over accepting money from Brestal as I believe he endorsed him in the same exact Napergate AD!

I have no time to go to the library but maybe the MODERATOR can check Napergate XXXVI for us and see if this is the ad that endorsed Furstenau while dumping Rosanova to the wolves over the campaign contributions. Ameena was babbling but since she was referring to this particular ad maybe both issues are right inside of this one Ad. Maybe he can check on Ameena's credibility. She could be saying anything if no one checks on her!

It seems like the Napergatians have been inactive this weekend or I missed something somewhere. Taxpayer has been completely quiet lately and I also wonder what he would think. Taxpayer is a much more staunch supporter of Furstenau than the Napergatians and it seems he is willing to go down the river with him, while I think the Napergatians are much smarter and will know when to lower the safety boats and jump ship!

Anon,

Insightful, yes indeed. I wouldn't start to speculate as to the why's of someone making a donation, only that they did. In my experience, money only gets thrown at something if

1) it's not yours
or
2) you stand to gain something (directly or indirectly) that is greater than what you put into it (this is also a usually a prerequisite for #1)

Otherwise, someone would just use their dollar bills as fireplace kindling.

Also, I am not sure if any action group has the ability to choose whether to accept or reject specific donations. I believe they can choose to reject but I am not certain. If they have that choice, I would question the responsibility of those accepting donations from organizations or individuals with whom they may not want to be associated with. Accepting them creates a permanent link in people's minds regardless of the time period or any particular subset of campaigns. People usually do not care what ledger column on the balance sheet the donation went to, only that it went SOMEWHERE.

The hypocrisy of accepting money from lawyers who seek to get things pushed through council, then turning around and calling it a naughty bad thing because someone else does it... Let's just say people put 2 and 2 together.

Anonymous: Making an exception here. I'm allowing you to post again to the "Ponds of Honson West" thread due to the pertinent insight you offered and also due to the fact I had already posted your comment to the other Furstenau thread.

Joe and T.B.,
The only contriubution I could track was a $2000 one from Brestal to Citizens for Furstenau but it was for his State and not Local Election. I hope you can review my work.

Apparently after the Napergate Man first uncovered these contributions from Brestal to City Council Members on a frequent and continuing basis they stopped completley. He caught them red-handed, embarrassed them, and you could say straightened them out. There were no contributions to any City Council Member from Brestal or his law firm after the disclosure in those infamous Napergate Ads. It justs show you the lasting effect this Napergate guy had on city politics.

If you want my take on why Brestal made that very large contribution to Furstenau: he wanted to get rid of him and install him in State Congress and off the City Council. Furstenau is a thorn in Brestal's back. As a State Representative he can not vote on local development projects.

And if it did not work, he would have indirectly pacified Furstenau with that indirect contribution. Brestal is very clever! I do not know if Furstenau was clever in taking this contribution. I think he was dumb in taking it even if it was for state. If misunderstood by the Napergatians, they could turn on him. They are really his foundation and the greatest behind the scenes supporters of Furstenau.

This Ameena librarian chick, really uncovered the deep and long connections between the Napergate Man and Dick Furstenau, but I do not think they are as clear as she thinks and I think I see a double edged sword of sorts coming out of the mess she is digging up.

Hey thanks for your help! I was really having a hard time. You both do a nice job neutralizing those Napergtians that seem to increase by numbers each day. I just think the word got out about bloggin, it has become popular, and with 3500 or more of them out there you will see more and more jumping on soon. They are known activists so this is a new forum for them to bring their agendas forward.

I respect them but I have to agree with the blogger who said they do flock to the Napergate Man like sheep. I think once he won a few major and long court battles against City Hall, and overturned a few controversial Brestal Development projects, they did begin to follow him blindly. That comment really upset the Napergatians! It really struck a cord with them.

It would be interesting to see what the reaction of Napergatians is to this $2000 Brestal to Furstenau donation. But it will be a gray area because it was for state and not for city council.

Now if he took a contribution to run for city council from Brestal and he started to vote pro-Brestal on each project, I can guarantee you the Napergatians would disown him immmediately as they disowned Rosanova. They are not going to support any council member with ties to Brestal's Law Firm and who supports Brestal.

From what I gather I think the Napergatans are much more anti-Brestal than they are pro-Furstenau. I see some support for Fustenau from them but it is lukewarm as they do not want to be wrong and have it blow up in their faces.

That is a very organized and powerful group even though it is reported their leader retired. The Napergate Man had many sharp lieutanants including Activist Donna Rogers and Attorney Richard Strawbridge. If they are still in town, I do not know why they don't take over the leadership.

I suspect if Brestal returns to his old ways they will pop back up stronger than ever. I think the zoning of the Ponds of Hobson West issue to high density is the kind of issue that drives this group crazy...insane is a better word! So I think the city council made a huge mistake here and I see some opposition building soon. When the city goes against 91% of the resident or whatever one blogger said, they are just bringing trouble. If just makes no sense a city council voted in by the resident would go against the residents. I just don't get it.
I blame the city council for the creation of the Napergate Man. Their actions made it happen!
He just did not happen in a vacuum.

The Napergatians could care less if it was a park or single home. But rezoning it to high density by Brestal to enable the developer to make more money, I suspect is what is upseting them. It is so much like Spring Green. My prediction is without their leader and his ads, they will not be able to overturn it back to low density. The Napergate Man was the key to their success. He also was an articulate writer who used his ads to motivate people and bring them to the meetings like herds of sheep. I don't know why that blogger who said that was so intimidated for saying what amounted to the truth when the Napergatians jumped on him.

Having said all I said, I think Furstenau is an idiot. He is no Napergate Man! He is brainless and spineless. He does not think of the consequences of what he does. If he somehow became the leader of the Napergatians, he will bring their downfall. That is my opinion from some personal knowledge and reading these blogs.

Anon,

Go to Committees, Search for committee name of Furstenau, click on Citizens for Furstenau

Click on the blue documents listed (usually the D2s from 2005/2006 have useful info) and click on the ones that have blue 'itemized' information on their page to get the details.

If you want an entire list of someone's contributions by name click on the left (contributions), then 'search contributions' then put in 'Brestal' (for example) in the last name box and hit search.

To see what everyone at that address contributed to, leave the name blank and put in

Address: 123 Water Street
City: Naperville

(for example)
and click Search

Lots of public record information there. Worth spending time on and bookmarking for every vote going forward to see who is backing whom so you can make your informed decision as to what or whom to vote for (or what or whom not to).

Joe amd TB,
I went to those sites and could not find donations from the Brestal Law Firm to Furstenau.

Can you guide me step by step how to find them. I spent an hour and need some help. Thanks!!!

TB,

You also forgot Kevin Gallaher who often brought many things front and center at City Hall for approval.

Ameena brought up on another blog how the Napergate Man dropped his endorsement of Rosanova when he learned that Rosanova had accepted campaign money from developers and attorneys.

While already having responded to her, I thought the topic more properly belonged on this blog.

The Napergatians seem to support DF. Would it change anyone’s mind to know DF took campaign money from the following:

5995 Development Inc.
BBM Incorporated – Dwight Yackley’s development co.
Willard Brestal – of the Brestal law firm
Calamos Properties Development LLC
Edward Management
Harp Krug Venture LLC – developers of Freedom Commons
Kimball Hill Homes
Steve Carr Builders Inc.

Source: http://www.elections.state.il.us/CampaignDisclosure/ItemizedContrib.aspx

Ted,
Thanks for looking into it. It does not bother me either way but it might help Joe understand similarties between bloggers.

I think he thought it was the template of Greatwire or some other site that was causing the problem. Thanks for clarifying that it is actually the Naperville Sun template which was making blogs look similar by not allowing things as indentation, color or bolding. Fortunately or unfortunately, the blogs that are writen here will have plenty of similarities.

Robert,

Sorry the indentations are lost. I'll ask the tech people about it.

Joe,
Your 8:07am letter looks like Melissa's 1:46am letter. Some of this resemblance is actually caused by this site. For example, I always indent the beginning of the paragraph but this site eliminates that indentation that brings automatic resemblance to those who don't indent.

Many of the bloggers admitted they were followers of the Napergate Man directly and indirectly. With 3500 of them I would not be surprised you would not get 20 or 25 of them towing the party line as you suggested on these blogs. There are 20 to 25 pulling for District 203 to and the same number against it. So yes, they would have similar thoughts since they worked together for years in the Napergate Era. Just like teachers for District 203 would have similar thoughts and positions.

Honestly I once thought you were T.B. d.bone and Joe. But as I studied closer, I realized you were not. It does take a while to differentiate people.

I was also fooled by those 2 Mrs. Officer posts that were close together that everyone talked about. Try reading them again. It will blow your mind how she got so emotional so quickly after re-reading Melissa's letter and interpreting it differently.

I can understand your suspicians but since this blog does not even allow you to dent, it makes us look so much the same. Taxpayer can be identified for sure because he does not capitalize anything...not even the first letter in a sentence...but then he is unique. He went to a different school than the rest of us....that is for sure!

Finally, I think Marshall's point was best! These bloggers including you and me want our individual identity. So I can't really think of one good reason why anyone would want to be multiple people. Bloggers want individual personalized attention....you can't get attention if no one knows who you are or can not respond to you. All the anonymous posts, I believe are mostly accidental from people who forgot to put their name in...happened to me once!

Let me know if anything I said makes sense. And keep in mind I indented 8 times to start each paragraph but I suspect as in the past my indentations will be eliminated and will look like you at 807am and Melissa at 146am because of the template on this site.

And I would like to say you are being treated rather harshly on these blogs way too often. I like to read more than write. But I noticed people jumped on you way back before any of these latest bloggers existed. I think once you were designated the punching bag, anybody who needed to throw a punch threw it at you justifiably or unjustifiably. So I think the punches against you are coming from multi people, but I would just deflect them, ignore them and move on. Keep up the good work, Joe! Toughen your skin a little and you will be alright!

PS. Anyway Joe I threw this "PS." in since you mentioned it as a criteria for similarities. This is a very common thing used by almost every one at one time or another. I think half the junk mail I get has a PS. after the letter is completed. I take that back...better than 90%. After they are done with their sales pitch, they push it again in the PS....lol...!!! It is ridiculous!

Hey Everyone from Marshall, Melissa, Marilyn Ameena, Joe, d.bone, & T.B., to the Host and Moderator…

I have to say that reading all of the topics and postings (& ultimately becoming involved) has really sparked something here. I live, work and play in Naperville – but I realize that I don’t really know very much. I think my resolution for the new year is to start paying attention to City Council meetings and learning more about how the city works. I have never been very interested in politics, but I’m thinking that it might be very interesting and informative to attend these meetings, read the minutes or watch the video, depending on my schedule.

Thanks everyone for enlightening me.

Melissa,

I did not call you out. Marshall brought up your name. I mentioned noticing patterns and then others immediately started putting names to that post in their followups.

In addition to what I mentioned about similarities is also the PS style that you, Ameena, and Marilyn (and at some time in the past Blake too) do and you format your posts in a very very similar manner. Closely matching that is also the quoting style used when referring to other's posts.

Now, that could very well easily be because you all might be around the same age and had similar schooling and training about how to type documents and format them. I'll admit that there is no proof of anything here, just a notice of similarities. Perhaps you use the same word processor that also formats things similarly using a template.

Conceding the possibility of similar schooling/training and pure coincidence I can remember seeing how my grandmother wrote cursive. It was a very distinctive style called the Palmer Method. Anyone who was taught to write with that method all looked the same due to the swooping and looping nature of the practice drills when learning it. 4 people who write with that method will look virtually identical when you look at their writing styles. Again, that does not mean they are the same people.

I also did say that it could very well easily be separate people all with similar thoughts, separate people repeating the 'party line' in some group-organized political campaign of PR to spread out to the community for damage control or fewer people being cheeky. I also previously said I don't know.

I am sorry if you or Marshall took it the next step further and felt I was calling you out to the point where you needed to immediately go on the defense with lengthy posts about it. I admit, it did have me wondering enough to mention it (as you call it, INSINUATE) but text typing styles are not enough to call anything proof; so I am sorry if you felt called out by it.

Since you asked Mrs. Police Officer to explain herself with a 2 minute post discrepancy, I think it would be of value for the readers to know what each of the people use to write their posts and where/how they were taught if they are not using a form letter. For all I know you are using a blog-post template from the Greta blogs which more than one has said they've frequented in the past. Others here might want to use the same thing to make posting easier and it might facilitate more people joining into the discussion with such a useful tool.

That should clear up all of the confusion and leave my face with a large order of Eggs Benedict residing on it.

Joe,
I admit I was wrong in thinking the 845pm and 847pm blogs of Mrs. of the Police Officer(what a pretty title) were from different bloggers. But I was not the only one fooled. I believe others were fooled and questioned it. It just seemed like she turned on a dime moodwise from one to another. If you read them you could easily see how she threw me off.

She was calm, cool and collected in one like she has always been and in the second she became moody and emotional like the rest of us. Like I said on another thread yesterday, I had her on a PEDESTAL OF SORTS but now I simply consider her human and one of us. Anyway I have no problem apologizing to her for that mistake. But not for misspelling Mrs. as Ms. when it was typing error that caused no harm or disrespect to anyone. I don't use spell check as I type directly on the blog so if I had to apologize for every spelling error I made, we would have 650 posts instead of 325. I don't think that would make Host Ted or Moderator Jim happy. I think I contact and disturb them enough privately when I forget to insert my name and e-mail, as I don't want to be anonymous criticising anyone. I think that would be very low and show no courage. I hope I don't have their titles reveresed as the only way I can write as much as I do is by not checking out everything so thoroughly before I post. I use my memory as much as possible and hopefully it does not fail me on occasion.

Having admitted I am wrong and apologizing to Mrs. PO, are you willing to admit you were wrong about your insinuation that one person is criticising you under different names. I felt your post

******************************************************************

"The different identities yet same writing styles over the last month are at the very least entertaining.

Posted by: Joe | January 8, 2008 04:13 PM "
******************************************************************

was directed at ME because I suddenly left the threads and others start criticising you. Your post was I believe made before you realized I had went to another thread and posted 7 or 8 long letters under my name of Melissa that I am proud of as blogger Marshall indicated.

So I think we can begin the healing process by apologizing when we are wrong. I was wrong and apologized. You were wrong before you realized where I had disappeared to. So I hope you are willing to apologize for that INSINUATION which I have no doubt was directed at ME.

And I have to agree with Marshall, who I have a lot of respect for and reminds me of Mrs. PO because of his level headedness and non-emotion, that one would not care to waste all this time bloggin without an identity. I will make sure I nominate him as one of my favorite bloggers.

In fairness to you, I think we all get a little high or aroused when are posts are recorded. We like it when we put up a good post and it generates a lot of response. As Marshall said, we all like our 15 minutes of fame whether we admit it or not. So you should not be singled out as the only person on these blogs who gets a high from posting. That would not be truthful!

Anyway, I hope you can at least admit you were wrong about your insinuation towards ME. It was vague but you and I know who you were CALLING OUT. So I hope you admit that you were CALLING ME OUT as the CULPRIT! I like your phrase CALLING OUT by the way and enjoy using it, but please don't write and say I must be YOU. Just having some fun late night!

Melissa
PS. Now that you point this CAPITALIZING out, I find myself subconsiously doing it at times and not doing it at other times. Going with my mood I guess as Mrs. Police Officer went with hers. So I think you stretched it a bit by using this as one of your criterias to analyze writers. I think it is fun to change your writing style if you are able to...otherwise we would all become DULL and BORING. I have a feeling Host Ted and Moderator Jim would agree on at least my last point!

hey, doesn't anyone read the DAILY HERALD ? i just noticed that on jan 4 they named our very own, PETER BURCHARD as PERSON OF THE YEAR ! i say KUDOS to them. the article is very big three page spread and it does go into the DICK lawsuit quite a bit. well, DICK must be reeling from that one. his hatchet-man lawyer did manage to spew his mendacity in the article. keep those letters pouring in to DICK, furstenaur@naperville.il.us demand he steps down, and leaves town. down with 5 million dollar DICK !

Melissa,

It appears that you have Marshall's post somehow attributed to me. He was the one that went on to list the names of posters which included you.

While you may now have no doubt that Mrs. of a Police Officer posted twice 2 minutes apart from each other, earlier before her explanation you obviously DID have a huge doubt:

"Mrs. Police Officer,
I responded to your 8:45 post and I loved it. Suddenly there is an 8:47 post that contradicts your 8:45 post. I do not beleive the 8:47 post is yours and will not respond to it.

1. It does not sound like you at all.

2. It would have been impossible for you to have written that rather large post in 2 short minutes after your 8:45 post.

3. It is confrontational when all your posts in the past have been conciliatory, diplomatic and very peaceful.

Anyway, my conclusion is that it was written by an imposter who wants to take advantage of the credibility and respect you have on these blogs. The time line indicates it would have been impossible for you to have written both."
....
Posted by: Melissa | January 8, 2008 03:13 AM

As I posted in Hobson thread, people sometimes make errors and also at times jump to the wrong conclusions. And yet, you seem to think a post like that setting the record straight is an attack or is bullying (yet another common over reaction that keeps cropping up). You set the record straight for Mark but no one is accusing you of bullying or attacking him; only thanking you for fact finding and reporting back.

Moderator,
Please only use my second post as I forgot to insert my name on the first post. Don't want to be Anonymous! Thanks!

Melissa

Marshall,
Thanks for you kind comments. Joe knows I did not change my identity. As you said I am proud of my identity.

I did not reincarnate into someone else. I just got tired of this thread and moved to the Hobson Ponds thread where I posted 6 long letters under my name of Melissa.

And Joe knew this as he has been bloggin there too. So his insinuation that I or someone else may be attacking him under different names is ridiculous. It seems more realistic to try to estabish some credibility with ones name and attack him if that is one's agenda.

I try to avoid him as much as possible but he showed up today on the Hobson Ponds thread, taking the side of a guy who said there was no house there. Well, I drove there and found out that there was in fact a house on the lot in question.

Joe is a waste of time, Marshall. I would use my energies more constructively than wasting them on Joe. He has been fantazing since he joined these blogs.

His latest fantasy and hope is that all this criticism against him is from one person with different identities....and only one person disagrees with him out of the thousands that blogged the last 6 months or year...not sure how long people have been bloggin as I am relatively new.

He suddenly can anaylze blogs and anlyze their origin. I had to laugh about how he can tell from people capitalizing for emphasis or yelling as some blogger called it. Half the people do that.....so I guess this half of the bloggers is one person according to Joe.....lol...

I chose not to capitalize this time. Does that mean I am not Melissa because I did not capitalize? I believe I am still Melissa.

Mrs. PO had 2 different tones and styles in those 2 blogs separated by 2 minutes. I have no doubt it was her despite writing in 2 different moods at 2 diffent times but sent them together. Thank you for explaining yourself Mrs. PO and you seem to always make sense and so do your explanations.

Now I abbreviated Police Officer as one of the moderators did using PO. I thought that was a nice short cut. Am I the moderator now because I mimicked him?

I have never met a grown man as silly as Joe. While one tries not to respond to his silliness and craziness, it is almost hard not to respond as his allegations are so wild and full with fantasy.

Again, the people that continued bloggin here were not me. I went over to Hobson Ponds and blogged heavily under my name of Melissa that I am proud of. The proof is in the pudding as they say. One can look, verify and see that Joes hallucinates quite a bit.

Melissa –

This was from some time ago, but has been nagging me until I just had to ask….

Every time a cop pulls someone over for a traffic violation, they have the discretion to issue a ticket or a warning (verbal or written). Do cops get more warnings than violations? I would think so and I think you believe so, too.

But please explain how you make the leap from professional courtesy on traffic stops to major crimes and alleged civil rights violations?

You appear to believe not only that Ofcr Hull lied, but that the NPD is covering up for his lies as a courtesy to Ofcr Hull.

T.B.

I could field this one. The time is when the comment is posted, not when it is approved for publication.

Jim Lynch (or other moderator) -

Is the time stamp on the posts when they are sent in to The Sun, or when they are approved and posted by The Sun? This could help alleviate some discussion above regarding lengthy posts 2 minutes apart.

Though I have to say that I believe Mrs PO and acknowldege some people can type much faster than my hunt-and-peck method.

Regarding the two posts that arrived so closely, it is mainly because I am new to posting. I used a word processing program and did a cut and paste. I had written a post which I thought I sent, but I guess I did not. When I sent the next one, it followed quickly.

Sorry for any confusion I may have caused.

Marshall, I simply made an observation. Everything else about it is your opinion which you are certainly more than entitled to have about it.

As for backing it, the criteria I used to form my opinion included but was not limited to the use of capital words for emphasis in similar ways with the same words emphasized over and over . The stating as fact that Chief Dial 'has done nothing' to curb this or that, Chief Dial has somehow disseminated through the good-old-boy network this and that and other things either stating directly or implying his dereliction of duty that are plopped out without any facts, reference or any sources to substantiate such claims.

It's a pattern, that's all I was pointing out. It could be that multiple people feel the same way; it could be that multiple people are repeating a party-line or it could be that one or few people like to think they are being cheeky. I really don't know and I really don't care. I was only making an observation not an accusation.

Thank you for taking the time to give your detailed opinion complete with names and explanations though.

As for the 2 minute apart posts. Some people are fast typists and others on here have admitted to using a word processor to write their posts then simply cut and past from there; the assumption being that they had 2 posts ready to go prior to making the first one. It's entirely possible that someone posting 2 minutes apart with length can fall into either category or any other plausible explanation of which I am sure there are several others.

Melissa,

That was indeed my post.
Posted by: Mrs. of a Police Officer | January 8, 2008 09:44 AM
__________________________________________

Just curious Mrs. of a Police Officer how you were able to make 2 lengthy posts at 845pm and 847pm. If the timing is accurate on these blogs as I believe so, it almost seems impossible that you could have made that second post. But sometimes what seems to be impossible is possible once explained.

I hope you can explain that. I noticed you avoided explaining it so far which has raised my suspicion just a tidbit! I hope to hear from you soon so we can clarify this matter.

The different identities yet same writing styles over the last month are at the very least entertaining.

Posted by: Joe | January 8, 2008 04:13 PM
******************************************************************
What I noticed is the opposite of what you noticed. It seems like people get on here to establish a name and a reputation for who they are and take pride in that name...kind of like you take pride in Joe whether Joe is you or a made up name....not really relevant!

I think this Melissa gal published 10 or 15 long blogs under her name....the same name! She was proud of what she wrote and enjoyed defending herself. She did not change her name from blog to blog but defended herself under her same name from post to post for days it seems.

Likewise, I think Mrs. Police Officer Lady also takes pride in posting under her name and defends herself from post to post and day to day. In her case she showed she can have different writing styles but be the same person. I have to admit I also was confused when she had that 8:45pm post followed by another long post 2 minutes later. I am taking her word but I wish she would have explained how she could possibly post 2 long blogs within 2 minutes to eliminate all suspician anyone may have that it was 2 different posters!

Caroline comes to Melissa's defense or agrees with her and your implication is she may be Melissa, forgetting that Melissa has been blogging non-stop and proud of her name and reputation for days now. I would be clueless why she would change her identity suddenly. She seems proud as you seem proud! I don't believe either you or her would change your identity.

Everyone really wants an identity of sorts on these blogs. Everyone wants their 15 minutes of fame.(including myself) To change names defeats that purpose and makes people nobodys. No one wants to be a nobody! Does that make any sense?

I think you are just upset that you are constantly criticised and want people to believe all this criticism in the last 6 months is coming from one person changing his/her identity 1000 times. It just seems you want to enhance your reputation with such unsubstatiated remarks. If all this criticism was coming from one person, that would be almost a full time job....I would have to wonder who would care to pay someone to criticise you full time all day and night! Just no logic to what you say or post sometimes.

It seems like you more than anyone on these blogs ask people to back what they are saying. You should back what you are saying before making wild allegations.

Joe, in case you did not notice someone actually nominated you as the favorite blogger on these threads. Now how would you like it Joe, if someone made a wild statement and said Joe nominated himself under a different name! That would be unsubstantiated and unfair!
So you need to try to substantiate what you are saying and be fair to others as you expect them to be fair to you!

The different identities yet same writing styles over the last month are at the very least entertaining.

Joe,
I really think along with the others, you are NUTS.
Melissa always addressed Mrs. Police Officer correctly and respectfully. It is obvious one out of 10 times she accidentally forgot to insert the "r." So you are basically apologizing to Mrs. Police Officer over a spelling error that Melissa made! Oh My!

I am no expert but I also thought Ms. can be used both for Miss or Mrs. So either way, Melissa did nothing wrong. You are just bullying a newcomer who you don't agree with into leaving these blogs that you think you are MODERATING.

Regarding the other issue, Melissa has police family and she already knew the answer to the question regarding Professional Courtesty. I think she was encouraging Mrs. Police Officer to be bold and admit something that most police family members don't like to admit. In some ways, I felt that she liked her and wanted to help her maintain her credibility by giving tipping her to the true and obvious answer in advance, that so many police refuse to admit.

It takes courage for Police Officers to admit they are breaking our laws with this PROFESSIONAL COURTESY that should not be tolerated in any town. Speeding and running stop signs are dangerous and the police should not be exempt from bringing danger to our children and their children. Chief Dial has done nothing about bringing an end to Professional Courtesy in nearly 20 years in power. I hope he sees the hypocrisy in asking his officers to ticket civilians while at the same time looking the other way when his officers do not ticket each other. He is endangering our children by letting off duty officers speed and run stop signs knowing they will not suffer any repercussions.

If the Naperville Sun was to issue a Freedom of Information Act on the NPD and request all traffic violations issued by NBD sworn officers to NPD sworm officers in the last 20 years, I believe it would be near 0. Maybe one day when I am bored, I will issue this Freedom of Information Request on the Dept. if the Sun chooses not to. But I think an investigate report from the Sun would carry much more weight than anything I do and probably would be a great headline story that would sell tons of papers.

So Joe, it all worked out great and you wanted to light a fire over a mispelling by turning it into an insult of sorts.

I have to agree with Liebert. You are a sick puppy who needs to see a vet rather quickly. I simply can not fathom why someone who is a human would not enjoy being like a human and acting like a human.

In general, some nicer newer video recording systems also do not use tape but instead store on a computer. They are then indexed and archived usually onto some form of read-only media for historical purposes. This eliminates the ancient "Woops, we re-used the tape" scenario.

I would imagine the EFF and ACLU would have their lawyers pouncing if they were on all the time and not triggered by an 'event' (aka probable cause) as already mentioned.

T.B.,

If there was a camera in a squad car, it is my understanding the individual officer would not be able to erase a recording - it is recorded or saved at the PD. From what I know (which is not all...) the camera is on but recording is activated by an event (lights/sirens, etc.) and the saving of the recording starts from some set amount of time before the activation of the event. For example, the saved recording would begin 5 seconds before the lights are activated.

Remember, this is what I learned about the devices in general and it is not about NPD, they don't currently have these devices in their squads.

Melissa,

That was indeed my post. I do apologize for offending you, but what I was trying to do - and possibly not very well - was point out that if you do not carefully consider or read what you write before you hit the post button, your writing can be interpreted in many different ways depending on who is reading it. It does not seem to matter what the intention is here sometimes - we cannot read your tone or your facial expressions when we read your words. My sugestion is - Be careful and thoughtful. (Not pointing this just at Melissa!!)

When I read your post, I admit it made me very angry and felt like an attack on the police, and of course I defend what my husband does for a living. He puts his life on the line every time he walks up to a car he pulls over - and he does that to protect all of us.

Anyway, police officers are human as was pointed out by Marshall and as such, they do good and they do bad. I happen to think that the majority of them are good and try their best to do a good job.

Melissa,

You did mention the court system in the post TB pulled that quote from.
"When you are a politician, you have to get your agenda accomplished thru politics....not the court system."

(INSERT YOUR QUOTE)
"On the other hand if the police are in fact harassing Mr. Furstenau, he needs to buy a tiny video camcorder that is almost the size of a phone and just record the police every time they harass him."

"The police are loaded with video cameras but seem to only produce them if they favor their case. Most police depts. tend to lose them if they favor their suspects. This is not limited to the NPD, but pretty much all over the country."

(Then went on to talk about Rodney King, 10 million dollar lawsuit, and lucky for him there was a video tape to prove the incident happened, etc)

It sounds like the whole point of having a recording device is to have 'evidence' for 'every time they harass him'

The distinction I pulled away from TB's post was that this was a SINGLE incident and not a multiple happening. If there is the implication that further 'harassment' events are happening with DF, please share with the board because that would be very enlightening and worth knowing about and could probably even sway some opinions with regards to the whole thing.

Melissa -

OK, take out "court remedy" if you'd like. It's irrelevant and evidently my "erroneous words!" (the exclamation point being yours, not mine).

If you read my post further you will find that what I was really objecting to was the word "harrassing". Please correct me if I was wrong, but I took your post to mean there has been some sustained pattern of behavior against DF by the NPD. This is evidenced again by your sentance that he should buy a camera to use "every time they harass him". I am only aware of the incident which lead to DF's arrest. What else are you referring to? As I said earlier, DF's wife had a later incident with the NPD in which DF said the officer was polite and professional.

I try to think of myself in the middle ground and would like to see the evidence play out, unfortunatley it seems it will be in court. I think the city's attorney, Sotos, made as convincing an argument as DF's attorney, Collins, so I don't believe this is crystal clear. In fact, I think Collins' statement in part 1 of The Sun's articles came across poorly (see previous discussions long ago regarding the so-called "stipulated bench trial"). Obviously, you've already made up your mind that DF was abused by the NPD.

As to the issue of professional courtesy, I can't speak to what a NPD cop may do for another NPD cop. But I know people in law enforcement that won't show their badges in Naperville if they get pulled over because NPD does not show any courtesy to other agencies and, in fact, the driver could get in trouble for attempting to get out of the ticket.

Marshall -

Not that there was a tape of this incident, but...

Even if a cop has a video unit in his patrol car, does he have the access to erase the tape or is that reserved for someone in authority?

I don't know, I just think it would be a good check-and-balance for the cop's boss or someone else to have the access, authority, key, whatever, to erase any tape. Maybe Mrs PO could help here.

Liebert,

I doubt that you care, but here is your answer about why I apologized to Mrs. of a Police Officer:

Melissa set her up to answer a question ONE and ONLY ONE way and spelled out that any answer that deviates from the answer she is expecting will show that Mrs. of a Police Officer has NO CREDIBILITY.

Melissa is not judge/jury/executioner of people's credibility on here, whether she realizes it or not.

Further, she started her little rant with "Ms." when Mrs. was clearly posting as Mrs.

Both of these occurred in her post on "Posted by: Melissa | January 7, 2008 05:01 PM"

Both appeared to me to be very disrespectful of a poster I have admired on here and someone I have always deemed CREDIBLE.

I have to dissagree, though, when you state that if the cops are "harassing" DF he may have to seek a court remedy.

Posted by: T.B. | January 7, 2008 04:57 PM

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

TB,
You are misquoting me. I made the below quote and said nothing about a court remedy. I said he needs to buy a video camera to stop the harassment and nothing about a COURT REMEDY. Those are your erroneous words!

Melissa

==================================================================

"On the other hand if the police are in fact harassing Mr. Furstenau, he needs to buy a tiny video camcorder that is almost the size of a phone and just record the police every time they harass him."

Mrs. Police Officer,
I responded to your 8:45 post and I loved it. Suddenly there is an 8:47 post that contradicts your 8:45 post. I do not beleive the 8:47 post is yours and will not respond to it.

1. It does not sound like you at all.

2. It would have been impossible for you to have written that rather large post in 2 short minutes after your 8:45 post.

3. It is confrontational when all your posts in the past have been conciliatory, diplomatic and very peaceful.

Anyway, my conclusion is that it was written by an imposter who wants to take advantage of the credibility and respect you have on these blogs. The time line indicates it would have been impossible for you to have written both.

I hope the moderator can shed some light here. And I hope you come back and tell us it was not yours and if it is yours how you did it in 2 minutes while turning your personality on a dime literally in seconds. Something just does not add up. Anyone agree with me???

For someone to insinuate that I said Chief McGury allowed a murder to take place due to Professional Courtesy is ridiculous. I just wish Chief McGury reviewed the records of his police officers after he took over and got rid of some bad apples like Peterson. I think Mr. McGury was there for at least a year and he should have found a way to rid himself of Peterson. He had a long record. I am sure Chief McGury also wishes he would have found a way to get rid of Peterson. I believe when he was interviewed on Greta Live, he also indicated he wishes he could have done something about Peterson and saved Stacy. I know you would never twist my words, Mrs. Police Officer so I am just wondering who would do that in your NAME! Sometimes, I wonder who likes to dial it up on here. I have 2 potential suspects in mind but I will not name either without solid proof!

In re-reading the 8:47 post, it just seems like someone is upset with you because you are being honest and wants to destroy your credibility because you are releasing valuable and credible information about the police dept. I hope to hear from you soon and that this second post was not yours but an imposter jealous of your skills, tactics and ability to communicate so well!

Joe,
I think you are a sick puppy. I have no problem with you inserting yourself in conversations.

You know what I had a problem with. Your apologizing to Mrs. Police Officer for what Melissa said. Melissa said nothing wrong! She gave some hard core facts about bad cops. She likes good cops! Did anyone say Mrs. Police Officer or her husband are bad. Melissa did not! No one said anything of that nature. I think most bloggers have a lot of respect for Mrs. Police Officer and there is a very strong indication she married a very nice police officer who is lucky to have her and vice versa. What the heck did you apologize for, Joe? Your apology implicated Melissa of something and that really irked me.

Mrs. P.O. came back and admitted that Melissa was right and there was some police patrol vehicles that tape plus some female officers that are being shadowed by video crews of a private company. And the 2 blogs that were posted after my post between them indicated they had a good exchange and ended up agreeing on much.

You tried to cause trouble between people with differing opinions and they successfully ignored you. Even Mrs. Police Officer wised up in her last blog and did not bother thanking you for the needless apology you issued to her on behalf of someone else. If that is not inserting yourself inappropriately, I don't know what is....

And when you respond to me, you don't address the issue I was discussing. You change the conversation and facts to distract from my main point.

I have to agree with all the other bloggers that responding to you is a NIGHTMARE. I am not responding to you anymore Joe.
You are a sick puppy who needs lots of attention! Go visit a veternarian. I honestly don't think a doctor can help you.

###############################################################################################

PS. Regarding your statement "I'm not the one with a 'slate' or set of policies that I am trying to get implemented."

I see nothing wrong with all those who are encourageing DF to work on a Napergate Style Slate of candidates for the next election and drop his lawsuit. This seems to be resounding louder and louder. It is a good idea! I don't see what your objection is here. They are expressing an opinion. Is that not what these blogs are for! Really Joe, why do you deliberately try to get under everyone's skin. You have been doing this for months and have been scolded by almost everyone and one time even the moderator told you to dial it down. And you suddenly told a blogger today, you don't know what the means. I got a headache writing you so this will be the last letter. I hope the Moderator gets on and gives you your second warning. You are just too much of an instigator in both suttle and non-suttle ways. You really need to grow up a little. You don't sound like a puppy but you act like one. I hope you get my drift and visit the vet soon!!

Melissa,

NPD does NOT have video recording devices in their squad cars or on their person. So there is nothing to be "lost" if favor of ANYONE. Please don't make underhanded accusations unless you really know what you are talking about.
Posted by: Mrs. of a Police Officer | January 7, 2008 01:47 PM
******************************************************************
Mrs. Police Officer,
I think you jumped a little to quick on Melissa about making underhanded accusations regarding video cameras. In this blog you state the police don't have recording devices in their squad cars.
Later, you seem to check with your husband and verify that some patrol cars do in fact have video as Melissa was indicating. And you further are able to substantiate her claims of videotaping going on with private organizations at least in regards to female officers.

Anyway, I hope the NPD video tape confessions. I think that is important. In last night's nonfiction movie that Melissa was referring to, the confessions of the 14 year older killing his sister were taped. Dozens of hours! That is what helped show the experts that the policemen mentally abused this kid until he said he killed his sister. Without the video tape showing how he was coerced he would have spent the rest of his life in jail, if they did not catch the real culprit.

And truthfully neither you or Melissa know if certain police would erase a video tape that convicts them of something. I guess if a police officer lost his temper and punched a hand cuffed suspect, I would tend to agree that 99% of police officers would erase it rather than face the consequences of a felony. To me this is just human nature. It is terrible! But it happens and I don't think Melissa was just making underhanded accussations or wild assumptions. She was talking reality and common sense.

Having said all that, I loved your second lenghthy blog in which you corrected your facts. I think that is why you are highly respected on these blogs. I would also like to add I highly respect you also despite your one minor misstep that you wasted no time clarifying and repairing.

And I would have to admit that your blogs by far have been the most balanced and educational! Keep up the good work!! I commend you! And I would love a person like you to one day be a Mayor of this fine town! We just need balanced leaders! You seem like the balance comes natural to you!

Liebert,

Anyone posting on here is 'inserting' themselves into the discussion (including you with your post to me). I respected Mrs. of a Police Officer from her very first post and wanted her to know that there are citizens around town who do not think badly of the police force and to re-express my appreciation for her family's hard work each and every day. A lot of the posts in here constantly mention corruption, conspiratorial dealings, wasting of resources etc and the reading can be rather harsh. My offering her a kind word was simply that, the same as I did on Dec 28th. I am not trying to 'win over' anyone in here. I'm not the one with a 'slate' or set of policies that I am trying to get implemented. If you interpret my postings otherwise, that's your choice.

melissa, first of all your posts are way too long. secondly, not wrongfully arrested or charged. the judge found insufficient evidence to convict. he did believe something did happen. and if you ask officer hull he believes it too. and finally, the man, DICK is a menace to this city. if he was the least bit sincere or virtuous he would do us all a favor and step down and hopefully leave town.

Mrs. Police Officer,
I have the utmost respect for you and I feel you are very CREDIBLE and HONEST!

Your admittance of police letting police slide on speeding impressed me! It is so common and yet no one seems to want to admit that. And of course, I know your husband would not speed excessively, but I inserted that just to make my point. Some cops will let civilians slide on 10 miles or more of speeding(rarely), but only a cop will let another cop off on excessive speeding on a routine basis and that is why I mentioned that. Just wanted to be clear!

And thanks for checking with your husband and verifying for the bloggers that some police vehicles have cameras....and that show in which they are taping female officer activity.(It seems like this Joe guy was about to jump on me for no reason.)

In summary, I agree with most of what you said. And if I ever had a trial, I would want you on my jury as you proved to be fair, honest and credible. If you were the Police Chief of Naperville, I would always feel in Good Hands. You would make a great Police Chief. I am sure your husband would to. Good luck to you Mrs. Police Officer. You are a very very good person and I hope we continue to hear a lot from you.

Melissa
PS. At least you should be a liason between the residents and police to improve relations. It is my belief you would make excellent relations. Just tell Chief Dial I want you hired as a liason. That would not be a waste of money like Furstenau's Lawsuit. I also agree with you and and defend Mr. Furstenau right to file a lawsuit. But it is just my opionion you need a stronger case like the Napergate Case to file a lawsuit. Otherwise every person who is charged wrongfully would be suing and the taxpayers would be broke!! That was my point. However, my leanings are towards Furstenau in this case...just a TOUCH though!!

With regards to:

"I am not willing to fight a request from DF for 100,000 dollars by spending 5 million dollars on a legal defense. That is silly! After all he was wrongfully arrested and charged!"

+++++++++++++++

The latter part has yet to be proven. That will be the result of the Federal Case, will it not? I believe so far we know he was arrested. He was charged. He was found Not Guilty of the charge. The "wrongfulness" of that I believe is the Civil Case we are facing now.

The former part begs the questions: I was under the impression that in a civil case, if the plantiff loses, they have to pay the defense's legal fees. Is that correct or not? I really don't know. If correct, and the facts show there was sufficient grounds to make an arrest (irrespective to the unsuccessful prosecution) then I'm not sure how there can be a denial of due process at that point, does the taxpayer foot the bill or does DF foot the bill for the defense of the lawsuit? Obviously, if the city loses, we all foot the bill for whatever disgusting number it ends up being.

Joe,
A discussion between Melissa and Mrs. Police Officer seems nothing but a polite civil discussion. They both have very good points...some conflicting! I am sure they will iron them out with a short exchange or debate.

Your desire to insert yourself in the middle of a discussion with an apology that neither seeked of the other is just another attempt for your desire of personal recognition by placing yourself everywhere you are NOT needed to get your HIGH!

I am sorry but it just seems you are attempting to kiss some a** to get someone on your side. You have no diplomatic skills...ZERO!

Mrs. Police Officer is a tough woman. I think she held her own against another blogger named Marilyn. I am sure she can handle Melissa without your help if she has issues with her. She may not have any issues with her comments for all we know. Let us see!

It seems like they both agree that there are good cops and bad cops. That to me indicates they will have a very civil discussion without you stirring the pot and elevating temperatures.

Melissa,

From your post....
" I am for good police. But the good police are unfortuantely unwilling to stand up to the bad police due to Professional Courtesy. Do you need a better case than the Peterson case in Bolingbrook? The Police Chief there rose thru the ranks of the NPD and he did not take any serious action to get rid of Peterson until after the fact.
I have many family members who are police men and former police men so I know quite a lot about about police. Until Chief Dial ends Professional Courtesy which exists in his police dept., we will continue to have trouble with the residents of Naperville."
In re-reading your post, you seem to insinuate that Chief McGrury allowed a(n alleged) murder to happen as a professional courtesy?? I cannot believe you would mean that, but this is an example of why tempers flare on this blog – meanings out of context. And just what is the trouble we are continuing to have with the residents of Naperville? As far as I am aware, most of the citizens are content with the protection they get from the NPD and the majority of the residents do not cause trouble or are the recipients of trouble.

Also from your post;
"I hope Police Chief David Dial reviews all his policies and toughens up his requirements before the Dupage residents of Naperville join our pain in Will County. What preventive measures is he taking, Mrs. Police Officer that you know about?"

What policies and requirements are you referring to? Policies and requirements come through City Council - they are not Chief Dial’s policies and requirements. (I could be wrong, and my husband is not home to ask, but I thought that hiring and promoting officers is even something approved by City Council.) Perhaps I am confused by your question. Preventative measures for what?

There is no need to answer this, because I am not going to debate you. I was just offering another perspective. Your response to my response on recording devices mentions PD's from all over the state and country – I really do not understand what all of that has to do with the topic at hand, but I can only speak to you of NPD and even then, I don't know everything and I freely admit that.

Again, way off topic. Everyone have a safe evening.

d.bone, you made me laugh.

Melissa,

I was only saying that in Naperville, the squad cars and officers are not as a whole equipped with recording devices, so there is no recorded video or audio that would have been "lost".

What you are referring to is female officers being taped for a television show focusing on females in law enforcement. As far as DUIs, etc. I am not an expert on what is or is not taped. My husband tells me that a traffic unit does have a camera, however, I am not aware of any of the numerous DUI arrests my husband has made being taped.

I feel like we are way off topic here comparing Mr. Furstenau's situation and my response to recording devices to the arrest of Mr. Fox (which I find very disgusting and makes me very angry) or many of the other examples you gave - I agree with you on the horrifying situations some of your examples bring up.

I too would like to know how someone like Mr. Peterson could be promoted when it appears that he has not had a stellar reputation for quite some time. All of the examples you site, and even more, make me angry as well. But, that does not mean that all officers and all departments are the same.

I agree with you that my husband probably would not get a ticket for speeding - however you added the word excessive - and that he does NOT do. He is all too familiar with the fatal aftermath of accidents - AND I also know that there are an awful lot of citizens who are NOT police officers who speed and get warning tickets or verbal warnings to slow down. I am not saying professional courtesy does not exist, and I am not saying NPD is a bunch of perfect officers given perfect directives and executing their duties perfectly. I do think they do a pretty good job though.

Look, I'm not here to be a cheerleader for the police department. I just want to point out things from time to time because I'm trying to be fair.

I am really interested in what is going on, and I kind of enjoy the debate - I would defend Mr. Furstenau's right to file a suit as he sees fit, but I guess I'm also interested in seeing how this all shakes out. Is it a conflict of interest that he is still sitting on the Council and voting on issues that are either directly or indirectly related to the very people he is suing? I don't really know the answers to any of this.

I truly am not trying to be confrontational and I am not arguing "for" the police. I was just trying to inform to best of my ability.

D. Bone,
I am not willing to fight a request from DF for 100,000 dollars by spending 5 million dollars on a legal defense. That is silly! After all he was wrongfully arrested and charged!

My family has suffered higher taxes because of egos in the Napergate Case and recently because of police incompetence in the Kevin Fox case. As I indicated I live in the Will County portion of Naperville. Another 5 million down the drain at my expense because of the Fustenau Case and I will have to sell my home and move to a town that settles cases instead of having this egotistical desire to fight.

Why is Mr. Furstenau not being offered 50k so we can settle this case? He was charged wrongfully! However, he should never be reimbured for campaign contributions that were mostly his. He knew he was charged and he continued to pump money in his campaign. So that part of the lost money is his fault and not taxpayers fault!

I am trying to be fair here. Many people think this is another Napergate Case where the city screwed up every which way possible. It is not another Napergate Case! I read tons on that case over the years and on these blogs. In that case the former Mayors were alleging he was a habitual seller of liquor to minors, while he was documenting record shattering numbers of confiscated IDs. that exceeded all other retailer combined. So basically the former Mayors(not Pradel as everyone noted correctly) at the time with the assistance of the police, were trying to make him a bad guy for making an innocent mistake or two once in a while. Something all retailers do and is almost impossible to avoid with all the fake IDs circulating around. Everytime I went to that store it seems there was a police car in the lot. My guess is they were making attempts to nail him because they did not like his politics or whatever...not sure!

I guess if you think about it, you can focus on any retail liquor establishment, bar, lounge or nightclub and nail them if you want to. With 800 DUIs per year in Naperville, I am sure most of these DUIs are coming out of our bars. So if the police wanted to trace these DUIs to bar owners they could. And if there was a bar owner they did not like, they could dig up all the DUIs of his customers and pretty much paint a bad picture of him and revoke his license if they wanted. This would be selective enforcement. I think this is what happened in the Napergae Case. He had so much overwhelming evidence that he was able to show selective enforcement to the public in his Napergate Ads and to the court with his official documents. And like many others, I recall that full page ad with 200 fake IDS documented with NPD numbers. To me I recall that was the turning point where the plot against him unraveled...at least in my mind and my husband's mind! Way before the court ruled in his favor?

In the Napergate Case it is obvious to me that there was a conspiracy between the former Mayors and the Police Dept. to nail the Napergate Guy. He just was on to them somehow from what I am reading and know first hand from those days. I did visit his store many times and he had a still camera taking pictures of IDs plus the person showing the ID, in addition to video surveillnace. I can't tell you how many times they took a picture of my ID and me with that counter top camera. I would always complain but they still took my picture each and every time. Now that I am older, I understand what they were doing. At the time I was really angry with them for carding me and taking a pic each and every time. It just seemed a little much and ridiculous. Now as a mother with teenage kids, I understand they were just doing their duty, documenting everything and keeping records to cover their tracks.

I am sorry to get off the DF case. But since Napergate was discussed so much I want to insert my first hand knowledge and information.

And I really don't think DF and his sons are the ones that are blogging. Most of the bloggers seem to show support of him but are critical of his lawsuit or at least the expense to the taxpayers. I don't think he and his sons would be critical of his lawsuit. It just does not seem logical!

I would be careful D.Bone about making wild allegations without any facts or proof to back you up. All that will do is take away your credibility.

One thing the Napergate Man taught me is you have to be credible to fight City Hall and succeed in the public opinion or courtroom. The minute you lose credibility over one item, you lose all your credibility both with the public and courts. So if you make wild statements you can not back up D. Bone no one will listen to you in the future. That is my advice to you!

whoops, you caught me you nancy drew like super sleuth. i am blogging right now too. i am in my office at CITY HALL come on over and let's have a real chat. i am in room 267, i am wearing a red windbreaker and cut off jean shorts. i will wait here until 9:00 p.m. wait, i see DICK running down the hall, he is chasing a bad employee. he is now poking him in the chest, he is threatening his job, and now he is telling how much money he is saving everyone in the world. i just asked him about this incident, and he said he can't remember what just happened ? he has just handed me a bill. it reads, YOU OWE DICK 5 MILLION DOLLARS ! he has now run out into the streets looking for more bad employee's.

Mrs. of a Police Officer,

Please accept my apology for (what I feel to be) the embarrassing comments above directed towards you by another poster.

The majority of us in this town appreciate the hard work and sacrifice your family must make each and every day in service of the city.

D Bone,

As a matter a fact, I've looked over your postings and it seems that more than half of your blogging occurs between 8am & 5pm.

If you are actually blogging during the time that you're on the City Clock, you are probably violating two rules (either of which are grounds for termination under the city municipal code).

Rule 1) No city employee may engage in political activities while being paid by the city. (Please don't try to argue that your blogs are not political activity)

Rule 2) Use of the internet for activities outside of your scope of work during working hours. (Did you know that the city admin policies allows the City Manager to monitor and retrieve data regarding use / sites viewed, etc, with respect to city-owned computers?)

D Bone,

I just noticed your last blog was at 1:40pm - are you blogging on City Time?

I think I should ask Furstenau to have Bob Marshall do an investigation to see how many City Staffers are waisting time on the internet.

Ms. Police Officer,
With all due respect I think you are wrong on the video taping.
Yes, there are no video cameras in the police vehicles.

However, often camera crews show up on DUI stops and other cases to record the event. These camera crews are private and work hand in hand with the police depts to tape events.

I believe a camera crew was shadowing Sgt. Smith and Sgt. Burghardt in late 2007 and may still be taping. I believe the liason in the police dept. for this taping was an officer named Atkins. I do not know Atkins rank or if he is a civilian or sworm employee of the dept.

While I respect you Ms. Police Officer you can not know everything that goes on in the Naperville Police Dept. I have sources in the police dept. as well as you. I believe the company taping was called Grief Productions or something along those lines from memory.

Most of what I said was not directed at the NPD but at police depts. in general across the country. You can not disptue that rouge police officers put 50 men on death row and that DNA proved they were framed by POLICE. How many cases don't we know about yet? How many times do police embelish their reports to get the result they want? How many victims on death row were executed because DNA did not exist or we did not reach them in time?

Last night I was watching a non-fiction show on ABC TV Channel 7 late evening, in which some policemen decided that a 14 year old boy killed his sister. They tired him out during interrogation and brainwashed him until he confessed. His case was dismissed and his family is filing suit. They caught the real killer. This was in California....not in Napeville for the record!

I am sure you heard of the Kevin Fox case which is costing the Southern Residents of Naperville who live in Will County. He was just awarded 15.6 million dollars. I am one of those residents who live in Will County and I am angry as hell that I have to pay for police incompetence that I wish so much would STOP.

I hope Police Chief David Dial reviews all his policies and toughens up his requirements before the Dupage residents of Naperville join our pain in Will County. What preventive measures is he taking, Mrs. Police Officer that you know about?

I am for good police. But the good police are unfortuantely unwilling to stand up to the bad police due to Professional Courtesy. Do you need a better case than the Peterson case in Bolingbrook? The Police Chief there rose thru the ranks of the NPD and he did not take any serious action to get rid of Peterson until after the fact.

I have many family members who are police men and former police men so I know quite a lot about about police. Until Chief Dial ends Professional Courtesy which exists in his police dept., we will continue to have trouble with the residents of Naperville.

Are you willing to admit Mrs. Police officer that if your husband was stopped for excessive speeding by another police officer in Naperville, he would not be ticketed? If you are willing to admit that I would consider you credible. If you avoid the question and are not willing to admit that, I would consider you not CREDIBLE. Please don't tell me your husband has never speeded and will never speed! Only Joe would make such a statement and all bloggers seem to think he has lost all his CREDIBILITY!

Here is your chance to show the bloggers how CREDIBLE you are!!! I hope you admit to Professional Courtesy becasue it is TRUE and it is ruining the NPD and destroying its CREDIBILITY!

Joe -

The Anon post came from me, though not intended as anonymous. Another fluke of the Sun's system and I should know by now to include my initials in the body of my post.

Anyways, if you don't know what I mean by dial it down a notch to be taken more seriously, then I'm of no help to you. Good luck.

Melissa -

I agree with you when you say that "When you are a politician, you have to get your agenda accomplished thru politics....not the court system." DF has a right to sue, but it may not be his best avenue for change or reform.

I have to dissagree, though, when you state that if the cops are "harassing" DF he may have to seek a court remedy. Yes and no (in my OPINION). My issue is with the word harrassing since this is a single incident and DF has said that he later had his wife call the NPD to their place of business for an incident and the cop was polite and professional.

I would also caution against drawing any conclusions as to where the majority lies based solely on these blogs.

Most businesses reuse their surveylance tape after a short period of time. Unless the NPD asked for them on or about the time of the incident, they are probably long gone.

Other than that, welcome.

TB

Mrs,

I appreciate the honesty and you taking the time to answer.

If this case continues forward, I do hope the city makes every attempt (if they have not already) to solicit any footage if it exists from those businesses just for the sole purposes of having something other than a "He said" / "She said" scenario. If such a thing exists, it will help put irrefutable finality to whatever the decision ends up being.

I am sorry, I do not know the answer, Joe.

And this is another example of precisely why I am not constantly here offering my opinions. I do not know more of the story other than what I have read in the papers and have heard verbally. While I know Officer Hull and his character (excellent), I am old enough to know that every organization is not perfect in its execution of its duties and that every person who is human tweaks their story from time to time - both sides of the story. Who doesn't want to be right when talking about being wronged??

The debate is interesting, and a difference of opinions is human. I do not know exactly what happened - I was not there - but I have my suspicions. All I am asking for is that people don't go that extra step and accuse or discredit when they don't know.

Mrs. Police Officer,

If there are businesses along the area where the incident occurred, I wonder if they were asked to review their security camera footage. Some times stores have video recording that catches the area outside of their businesses.

If such a video exists (even if visual only) it could help to provide documentation for the event (if it at all matters in the Federal Trial; if it goes to trial).

Do you know if any such attempt was made or if the place of incident was out in front of any business?

Melissa,

NPD does NOT have video recording devices in their squad cars or on their person. So there is nothing to be "lost" if favor of ANYONE. Please don't make underhanded accusations unless you really know what you are talking about. Before anyone jumps all over me, I read alot of speculation about NPD here; the organization is not perfect, but if you want to know more, instead of guessing and gossiping, sign up for some ride-alongs and learn about the things you are talking about.

hey melissa, the majority of these boneheads, all six of them, including DICK and his sons writing on this blog may be impartial to DICK's crusade to suck 5 million dollars from the taxpayers of this fine town. but, DO NOT believe the majority of people in this town want to hand over one cent to this man. i think the city should fight this to the bitter end and teach DICK a lesson. send him out of here in complete disgrace. all of you DICK supporters can leave too. did you read mr. soto's response ? mr. sotos responds eloquently and exact. if you read shawn collins reply it is all hogwash. 5 million dollar DICK must go !

Now getting off Joe and on to the subject, my personal opinion is with the majority. In my OPINION, there is a high relevance between the Napergate Case and Furstenau Case. As a major in history, we always learned that the present and future, have roots in the past. Nothing just happens in a vacuum. In this case no one is disputing that the Napergate Man ran ads titled Napergate endorsing Dick Furstenau. To me that in itself is a connection of sorts!

No one is disputing they worked together in the past. No one is disputing they both had some problems with the police. The only difference I see is the Napergate Case came to a conclusion after a very long period. The Furstenau Case is very active. If I were to guess, Mr. Furstenau will not have the level of success as the Napergate Man as he does not seem to have as many facts, documents, or video on his side. A Federal Judge is going to need a high level of proof. Eyewitness seemed to have lost their credibility in our court system as over 50 death row inmates were released after DNA proved the eyewitnesses were just imagining what they were seeing. So if this case is based on eyewitnesses, both sides will just have a DRAW and we will go home!(It does not say a whole lot for police depts. and prosecutors across the country that they were able to throw so many innocent men on death row erroneously or thru embelished police reports.)

My opinion and only my opinion, is Mr. Fustenau would have had a much higher level of success running these Napergate Style Ads and getting a slate of his choice elected, as he seems to be the leader of the OPPOSITION PARTY. When you are a politician, you have to get your agenda accomplished thru politics....not the court system.

On the other hand if the police are in fact harassing Mr. Furstenau, he needs to buy a tiny video camcorder that is almost the size of a phone and just record the police every time they harass him. The police are loaded with video cameras but seem to only produce them if they favor their case. Most police depts. tend to lose them if they favor their suspects. This is not limited to the NPD, but pretty much all over the country.

Police are just not going to volunteer a video of say Rodney King that would cost them a 10 million dollar lawsuit and throw police man in jail. Any police man that would say such a video would be produced, I would not believe. At the mininum, it will be erased "accidentally!" Rodney King got lucky as a citizen was taping that day. Unfortunately, Mr. Furstenau did not have a citizen taping, so his case will be very very weak and cost us taxpayers tons of money and erode his support amongst us.

So this is where the Fustenau Case appears to differ from the Napergate Case: the level of proof appears so much less. The city may have gotten lucky this time if Mr. Furstenau in fact never "hit" the policeman as is widely believed. I can not see how you can charge a civilian for tapping a police man on his chest to make a point that he is towing illegally especially if the policeman was not listening. There was not threat to the policeman's life as he knew Mr. Furstenau was not a serial killer of sorts or a habitual abuser of policeman. I also don't beleive Mr. Furstenau was armed. So I would say the NPD blew this thing way out of proportion. The power of CHARGING should be taken very seriously and not ABUSED by those in POWER! I tend to believe it was abused in this case and we don't need to go to court to prove it.

So my point is I believe Mr.Furstenau as many others. So why sue to make a point when it appears the majority believes him. Just move on and get the Napergate Style Slate of candidates ready for the next elections and change policy at the police department. That makes more sense to me!

Melissa,

Why should other bloggers be mad at you though? Is there some sort of unwritten rule that I am obviously not aware of that says you can not apply context, post data, links or reasonings for why you agree, believe or disbelieve points regarding the topics of conversation? I'm the rookie, not the veteran on here.

I assume we are all adults here, right?

Telling other posters to not post, insisting on banning people because they have a different view on things, and insisting on labeling a contrary point of view as 'bullying', and the afore mentioned name calling seem to me to be more of the problem more than anything else. Again, that's my opinion and anyone else is certainly entitled to theirs.

Joey,
I have been reading these blogs for a week and startin bloggin this weekend.

I think I know what your fellow bloggers mean when they say "dial it down."

Do you really think any blogger believes you do not know what that means?

By wanting a definition of a phrase that anyone would understand, it really shows me what the bloggers mean, when they say Joe wants an argument for the sake of an argument to get an AROUSAl of sorts.

I know I am going to be yelled at for responding to you but I figured I had one pass before bloggers get on me for responding to you. Now that I have used my only PASS, I am also done writing to you JOE.

Sorry bloggers for responding to Joe, but I had to get my thoughts to him just ONCE.

Melissa

Anon,

Define 'dial it down'.

I present my opinion, give points of reference and/or data to support why I believe the way I do and when I disagree with someone I tell them exactly what I disagree with and why I disagree with it; again with data, links, reference etc.

I do not do it by calling them 'stupid', 'moron', 'jerk' or 'idiot'.

So please, explain exactly how to 'dial it down'.

Eric -

Thanks. I didn't want to address being lumped in with Joe, but appreciate that you now see the meaning of that. I hope we've agreed to disagree and you see that I was just giving my opinion and not attempting to shut out others.

Joe -

You have some valid points, but come across as very confrontational. Dial it down a bit and people will take you more seriously.

Marshall -

I have no problem with differing opinions. I just don't like accusations such as trying to control the debate. I try very hard not to attack anyone personally, but feel I have to defend myself on occassion.

I, too, feel like a neutral person trying to make up my mind. I don't understand those that are 100% behind either side because I think there's plenty of blame to go around. I just feel like there is often a "you're either for us or against us" attitude with BOTH sides, not that you really see anyone completely against DF except maybe Joe.

Still lost or does this help?

Eric,

At least 14 times you refer to me in your post.
I think that would give Rudy Giuliani a run for his money with the phrase "9/11".

The funniest part is that anyone can read the blogs and see that the same people are claiming I am attacking them but one can not actually find a post where I do.

Kevin,
I am very satisfied with your explanation and your extreme honesty. That quote of sheep following the Napergate Man did disturb a lot of bloggers. You seem to now admit it was your quote and not someone elses. That was really the jist of my problem with you. You just seemed to want to blame it on some one else when 3 or 4 ladies called you on it. You almost made them feel like they were wrong in attributing the quote to you.

You seemed to have been a man and owned up to your mistakes....and to your now infamous quote that started this whole controvery the last couple of days.

On a separate issue, I also want to apoligize for lumping you in with Joe. I know no wants to get lumped in with that guy and I really don't know what made me do it. It was really a mistake! I guess I would be insulted if I was lumped in with Joe, too. You are not Joe at all.

You own up to what you say. You don't distort what people say. You respect what people say. You answer with truth. You don't split and dice words. You are clear not vague. What more can I say? And yes I must admit you did respect the Napergate Man and indicated you wanted to learn more about him and his ads! It almost seems like you had a minor slip of the tongue which you did not mean. I wish you would have corrected it earlier though after realizing you created this quote from insinuations of others and were not quoting someone else.

Randy was a supporter of the Napergate Man and I never saw him say people would flock to the Napergate Man. I think he believed the Napergate Man got his repect from a very long and hard fought battle that lasted a decade. His support from what I gather came very very slow!!!

You made me feel bad for putting your name in the same letter as Joe. I learned a lesson! Never address anyone with Joe in the same letter. As Marshall said I should not respond to Joe directly or indirectly. I did say in my letter I would not respond to any blogs from Joe and I did not. But I responded to you and T.B. because I obviously feel you guys are not like Joe at all.

I don't want to write a special letter to T.B. but I also want to apologize to him for lumping him with Joe. He seems to be a good guy just like you who has strong opinions that one needs to respect.

But we all need to have thicker skin when being criticised especially if we criticise others.

I never realized how hurt people would be if they were addressed together with Joe or I would have never done it. Or how hurt people would be if they were compared to Joe. Now I realize that and I will do my utmost never to compare any blogger to Joe.
That was very harsh of me and a big mistake.

Anyway, I hope you and T.B. forgive me for addressing you in the same letter with Joe. I have only been bloggin for 2 days and had no clue what this Joe guy was about. Now I know and I know better. Again, my sincere apologies!

T.B.
You are losing me. I just think you and Eric are making something out of nothing.

You disagreed with him. He disagreed with you. You expressed an opinion that Napergate was not relevant. He expressed an opinion that it was relevant. I really don't understand what the problem is. You both seem to be nice people debating.

Maybe you pushed too hard and people felt by claiming Napergate had no relevance you were trying to sabatoge the discussion. Now remember your critics saying that is nothing more than their OPINION. So I don't see why you are upset for them expressing an OPINION that you were trying to sabotage the discussion. I wish they would have chosen a different word but unfortunately they did not but it was still only an OPINION! And you said you respect other people's opinion. So I am confused why you are so upset.

I feel like I am a neutral person trying to make up my mind. But I have to admit I see a ton of relevance with Napergate. The cases are similar but not identical. To have relevance you only need some similarity. You rarely get anything in this world that is identical. Sometimes identical twins look more similar than identical...I hope you get my drift.

So I think these arguments are about people being emotional about others opinions. The emotions are coming from both sides. You guys criticise each other equally. Nothing wrong with that! I also think both of you guys are criticising opinions and not each others persona....that is legitimate! Why are we upset!

In summary this is really all about nothing. And it is legitimate to discuss if Napergate is relevant or not relevant! You took the underdog stand that it is not relevant, so of course you will get a ton of heat since most people feel it is relevant. I suspect the moderators feel there is some relevance or they would have said something. Plus they posted a Napergate thread when the one preceding it was loaded about Napergate as a topic of relevance. So if you are going against the tide, you have to be ready to take the heat without being upset.

Nothing wrong with going against the tide. Sam Walton swam upstream while everyone swam downstream and he became the most successful retailer in the country. So there is always the possibility you are right and everyone is wrong. It is possible! And you have every right to believe as you do!!! Does that make you feel a touch better!!! I hope so!!!

Eric,

Wow, looks like this blog took a life of its own...anyway I was reacting to you lumping me into the same category as Joe and TB when our comments in these blogs were independent of each other. If you read your original blog over again you will see where you did lump me in with Joe and TB, which is what I reacted too. Here it is..."Kevin, T.B. and Joe don't want to hear a word about Napergate not because it is irrelevant but because it is relevant and contains the formula to uproot some establishment members and replace them with Napergate/Furstenau candidates...Posted by: Eric | January 5, 2008 06:13 AM". You go on to say..."I am sorry Kevin. But on this one you sounded like Joe, trying to start a baseless argument...Posted by: Eric | January 5, 2008 06:13 AM". Finally you say..."At the same time Joe, Kevin, and T.B. are trying to sabotage the discussion of how the anti-establishment forces can develop some unity and leadership, by attacking an insignificant comment Debbie made and trying to make it a distraction to what needs to be accomplished. So I hope you guys stay focused and don't fall for the distractions and sabotage being perpetuated by certain individuals...Posted by: Eric | January 5, 2008 06:13 AM". That to me sounds like you are lumping me together with Joe and TB and accusing me of doing something that I wasn't. So I was confused to read in your last blog to me..."Kevin, Of course I don't think you are anything like Joe. I actually think you are a nice guy. Just because I write about you in the same blog as Joe, that does not make you equal to Joe...Posted by: Eric | January 5, 2008 06:03 PM". Maybe I misunderstood your point in the first blog, but after reading these entries again, can you see why I reacted the way I did? I think you were blowing things up a bit when you say I was "hostile", "sabotaging the discussion" and implying that I am part of the "establishment" when in fact I am neither. In fact, I am not a fan of political parties...I vote both Democrat and Republican in the various elections after evaluating the candidates.

Regarding the comment that seems to be what upset you the most was the "flock together like sheep". Here is what I said originally..."you guys make it sound like he just snaps his fingers and 3500 (which was mentioned in one person's blog) people flock to the polls like sheep to do whatever this man asks of him...I would hope the people of this fine city would stop to actually form an opinion of their own before just doing what they are told by this Napergate Man...Posted by: Kevin | January 1, 2008 10:50 AM". The key words in that quote is "make it sound like", which is not saying they actually do flock like sheep. The basis of that quote was from reading a handful of entries in this blog about how all the Napergate guy has to do is call his 3000+ supporters (the number 3500 came from a blog by Randy early on and was the largest number I read about his supporters which is why I put in there) and they will mobilize for him. The "flock like sheep" part was my editorial comment and just a vision I had in my head when I kept reading about him being able to mobilize a number that large so quickly, which was what was being implied. Now I don't have the time to read each entry to see who made comments about him calling his supporters and they would mobilize, but there are handful of comments like that. So when June was saying..."I erroneously attributed that quote of 3500 people flocking like sheep to support the Napergate Man to you since I had not seen it before. That really angered me a touch! I wish you could have attributed that quote to its author so the heat would have not been leveled at you...Posted by: June | January 3, 2008 04:22 AM" , I assumed she was talking about the basis of my quote and I was not focusing on the "flock like sheep" part of the quote as I did read it quickly. So after going back and reading it again, I can see where she was probably talking about the "flock like sheep" part. I will take full responsibility for the "flock like sheep" comment as that part was my editorial, but the root of my quote was based on a handful of comments that I read about him being able to mobilize his supporters today very quickly. I do apologize to those who were offended and for those who felt mislead, I just misunderstood the comment myself when June wrote back to me as I was reading it quickly, which was my mistake.

I hope that helps clear things up. I mean no disrespect to anyone and I was just offering my opinion based on what I read. However, Eric, most of your blog that included me was not solely based on the "flock like sheep" comment. Like I said above, you did mention that I was trying to sabotage the anti-establishment movement, which I am not and was not trying to do. Also, if you did read my blogs fully you would see where I wanted to learn more about Napergate as I mentioned that in a couple of my entries. I guess it is a good lesson to learn in making sure you read fully what is said before commenting...I know I learned that lesson myself!!

Take care,

Kevin

Marshall -

I don't buy the theory that I've been attacking anyone who thinks Napergate was relevant simply because they think Napergate was relevant. Apparently I disagree with many Napergatians, but not because of the fact that Napergate was or was not relevant. I happen to disagree with some of their ideas-regardless of Napergate's relevance to me or them or you.

I welcome those who disagree with me. Maybe I'll learn something new. I can have a nice back and forth with anyone who wants to put out some ideas without attacking those they disagree with. Taxpayer and I do not see eye to eye, but can have a nice discussion and agree to disagree. I don't think Michele B and I agree on many things, but can have a cordial discussion.

I don't, however, think I have to sit back and be told that I am trying to control the discussion when no such thing is taking place. I have never told anyone what to write about or what was relevant. I was just giving my opinion.

You wrote "I would have been happier if you agreed to the right to criticise each others opinions without attacking the person behind the opinion." I think I've been saying that all along. I just wanted to provide my opinion free of being accused of "sabotaging" anything.

Lastly, I am dumbfounded that you think I in any way attacked Eric. Please point it out to me and I'l apologise.

Marshall,

Since you want to bring up the parking spot again, go re-read what was originally posted.

Ameena claimed she could not see anything in the spot because she pulled too far forward and the spot was in a blind spot of her SUV.

Whether it was fresh paint or faint paint, she did not see it. There is a sign DIRECTLY in front of the 4th parking spot (where she claimed to park). It CAN NOT be read from the third spot and is there to be read by the person who parks in the 4th spot.

So, she either saw something and didn't follow up to find out what it said or she saw nothing and parked there anyway whether it was faint paint or fresh paint, it does not matter at that point. The sign was still (and still is) in place to be read by anyone who is parked in space #4 and bothers to look 45 degrees to their right.

I did not attack her or attack her non-stop. She kept claiming it was not marked; I pointed out it was. She said the signiage did not exist, I showed her that it did. I did not call her a dirty name or any other name; I merely pointed out where her claims about paint and signiage were in error.

She also mentioned nothing about contesting the tow and winning so by legal standards, it was a legal tow regardless of how anyone 'felt' about it.

T.B.
I think the argument between you and Eric is very basic and simple.
You apparently have been attacking the opinions of many that Napergate does have relevance to the Furstenau case.

He in turn attacked your opinions of Napergate not having relavance or much relevance.

You may have struck a nerve with him with your Bush comment as you stated.

But he apparently struck a nerve with you by doing nothing more than criticising your opinions.

I don't see why you are upset with his critcising your opinons since you feel it is fair game to criticise others opinions.

By the way I feel it is fair game to criticize opinions. So really TB, I think if you dish it out, you must accept it when dished out to you and not let it strike a nerve.

I think you guys agreed to disagree which I think is a positive resolution of sorts. I would have been happier if you agreed to the right to criticise each others opinions without attacking the person behind the opinion.

Regarding Kevin, I am hoping he can find us the orginator of that quote of flocking to the Napergate Man like sheep. If it was his quote and he tried to pin it on someone else when he was called on it, he really does owe those ladies and Eric an apology.

And finally regarding Joe, I see Eric's point of not responding to Joe. I was watching Joe debate a girl named Ameena about a cab parking spot that was not labeled properly. I even visited that spot and saw what Ameena was talking about. I think he kept attacking her non-stop even though she was right. I am sure he had the poor girl in tears with his vicious onslaught towards her.

Ameena like many others realized it is not worth debating Joe. I think she now goes to libraries and researches old Napergate Ads instead. It just seemed the city and Joe angered her so much about this illegitmate towing, she is trying to learn from the Napergate Man how one takes on City Hall.

In summary when you anger people to the point they can not take it anymore, they become Napergate Men. I think Ameena is being angered to the point where I can see her being Napergate Lady one day. The city officials needs to be more considerate to resident's complaints or they will continue creating Napergate Style Rebels for the opposition. This is how governments eventually get overturned. Motivating the opposion by not conceding anything to them...not even one mislabeled lousy PARKING SPOT!

Finally, let us not forget the Napergate Man was only one candidate short of taking over the city with his slate of 4 candidates. One more candidate and the city may well have been a very different city. Only at the point did the city see him as a serious potential threat to the establishment, and seek to neutalize him by pacifying him. I believe like many others that Mayor George Pradel was the one that made the final peace with the Napergate Man. And I give Mayor Pradel a lot of credit for ending this battle that was caused by prior Mayors over what amounted to nothing but a bunch of egos.

However since Napergate is a decade removed, I am hoping City Officials did not forget the lessons of Napergate and return to their old habits of business as usual. This is my greatest fear! I hope I am wrong!!!

Eric -

If only I had the power to control the debate as you claim I am trying to do!

What you seem to be missing is that I was expressing my opinion regarding the relevance of the Napergate case. I think I'm entitled to my opinion, right? I said I "think" the cases are apples and oranges. I also said I "think" DF's abuse at the hands of city has yet to be determined. Did I somehow miss the federal court case? Stating my opinion is not an attempt to control the debate.

I have also never debated whether or not DF hit Hull and never tried to stear the debate in that direction. If you did go back read the other 250 posts, you'll see I have been very consistent that whether or not DF hit Hull is irrelevant because the case is about what the police did (or didn't do) to DF to get him arrested in the first place. Was there an abuse of power? By the way, you would also have seen that I stated the Napergate legal costs should have been public record and that the $400K the city set aside for this case will not be enough.

Your statement that a judge always looks to someone's past record is only partly true. The judge or jury in this case will not look to the Napergate case when awarding any money to DF--assuming he wins. That is not done in civil court and the judge or jury will have to decide the actual damages caused to DF and also assign some sort of punitive damages if they think it is warranted. The case will stand on it's own merits.

In criminal court, the defendant's prior convictions come into play, but in a minor fashion. For instance, prior criminal convictions will increase the recommended sentance at the federal level, but the Supreme Court has ruled that the federal sentancing guidelines are not mandatory and are only advisory so the judge can disregard them altogether. But I digress....

I don't care if you are for or against Bush, but it looks like I hit a nerve there, huh? I was merely trying to point out how people have been accused in these blogs that if they don't whole-heartedly side with DF and the Napergate crowd then you must somehow be part of the Establishment. There seems to be no tolerance for a middle ground. Just for expressing a different opinion I have been accused of being an Estabishment guy, a bar owner, and Joe's brother. All are far from true.

So I do see your point Eric, I just happen to disagree.

Joe,
It is apparent the reason many of the bloggers here do not like responding to you is that, despite some misstatements, you usually present facts that totally blow their theories, and Furstenau's assertions, out of the water. Many blogger's insist on perpetuating their conspiratorial fantasy world based on their unsubstantiated, or I should say FALSE assertions. You make them respond, and they don't like the answers to the tough questions. You make them look at the facts in the real world, and the answers to the questions usually prove Furstenau wrong, and prove them wrong. They don't like that. Keep up the good work.

How can Napergate show a pattern by the city when it took place in the 90's, and we now have a different group of people running the city? Based on the known facts, Furstenau was NOT abused like the Napergate guy. Absolutely NO correlation. I'm sure Furstenau's pattern of behavior will be scrutinized carefully, and be more relevant to the case. I believe his continued lies, and misrepresentations of facts will easily discredit him and his testimony.

If it is so important to Furstenau to take this to court to prove a point, he needs to put his money where his mouth is in support of taxpayers by agreeing to pay for all the court costs and legal expenses for both sides...win, lose, or draw! If he doesn't, this case will show that being a champion for the taxpayer is just another lie.

Wow I am so glad to live in another city for once! Our Police Department outnumbers yours and they are paid a much better pay rate. I get a huge kick out of your bloggers it's like a playground fight.Grow up you have crime and plenty of your own home grown problems on your side of the city limits. It's alway so easy to point at Aurora or Bolingbrook or Schaumburg and blame Outsiders for your crime. I have ridden with your officers and seen some domestic violence calls and Dui's and they emminate from your own town.They come from your own homes!!! So before you go blasting your LITTLE MAYBERRY POLICE DEPARTMENT know this.... they do more with less than most area departments and for less money. You are paying less Pension because you are hiring fewer officers. Your paying less in benefits because you are emplying fewer officers. Now if overtime hurts try putting more officers on the force and paying benefits and pensions to those families.I'll bet that wouldn't be popular

TB.
Thanks for your kind response.
1. I am anti-Bush and don't believe it is my way or the highway.

2. I like discussion and debate.

3. Your statement that the Napergate Case vs. the Furstenau Case regarding legal fees is apples and oranges is not really accurate.
The Napergate case ended up costing the city millions of dollars and the Furstenau case has already been estimated by both sides to most likely exceed a million. As it gets messier by the day, it will get into the millions to. These attorneys know that the City of Naperville has very deep pockets and will drag this on.
The intention of bloggers is "let us not fall in the same trap again." So your remarks that it is not related, is your attempt to quash debate in an area where many people feel there is extreme relevance.

4. I beleive both the Napergate Man and Furstenau were abused by the city. The Napergate Man case just reached the highest levels where the city finally conceded. In the Furstenau case he was not found guilty at the first level and he has to take it much further to prove the degree of abuse was equal to the Napergate Man. But it is progressing in that direction and we should be allowed to compare and use the Napergate Man as a measuring stick of sorts. There is significant relevance.

5.Also when defendants go before courts, they always look at their prior records before sentencing, imposing fines or awarding judgments. Be assured DF's attorney will introduce the Napergate Case to show the city has a pattern and has done such things before. He may have more cases that were not publicized but show relevant evidence. He needs to show some pattern that the City of Naperville uses the police to achieve political goals when all else fails. The Napergate Case provides such a case to show pattern so it will not strictly be "he said she said" about the back hand!

6. No one is asking you to side with Establishment, Napergate, anti-establishment or Furstenau. But let the debate ensue without YOU deciding what is relavant and not relevant. It is really YOU who is being Bush like, by trying to tell hundreds of bloggers there is no relevance to Napergate when a hundred or more people seem to see a heavy relevance.

7. Regarding your quote:

"Everyone is entitled to their opinions, just don't make asusmptions about mine."

T.B. you are the one making assumptions of others and suggesting their opinions that Napergate is relevant is all wrong and should not be discussed.

In conclusion, you seem to be a little bit hypocritcal and tried to control debate by deciding which topics are relevant and which ones are not.

I can not imagine how boring this bloggin would be if all we could talk about is whether DF touched Hull or not touched Hull.
If we have to limit it to this one point, I think most bloggers would have left. You can only beat a dead horse so much.

And as Kevin, I do not think you are another Joe. But you are unintentionally telling people to limit debate to relevant issues and trying to be the MASTER of what is relevant and what is not.
If the Moderator did not see the relevance he would have stepped in. He saw the relevance and even posted a thread titled Napergate after the thread preceding it was almost enirely about Napergate when it was for "open subjects."

I see your points, T.B.! But I hope you see mine and others. You need to stop telling people what is relevant and not relevant. What is apples and oranges and what is not? If you were right than it seems like everyone else on these blogs is wrong. It seems like you can find the word Napergate in almost every single blog lately. There must be relevance of some sort or people just must be "FLOCKING SHEEP" like Kevin indicated while trying to pin it on another blogger.

Enough said!! I need to go exercise! Happy New Year to all!

Kevin,
Of course I don't think you are anything like Joe. I actualy think you are a nice guy. Just because I write about you in the same blog as Joe, that does not make you equal to Joe.

But regarding this exchange,
"She went on to say that... "I erroneously attributed that quote of 3500 people flocking like sheep to support the Napergate Man to you since I had not seen it before.
That really angered me a touch! I wish you could have attributed that quote to its author so the heat would have not been leveled at you...Posted by: June | January 3, 2008 04:22 AM" As you can see I was quoting another blogger and questioning what he said in my blog, I just did not put it as his comment in my blog and in turn it looked like my comment when it wasn't. "

This is what bothered me. I read the entire 250 blogs last night and the flocking like sheep was your quote and not picked up from another blogger as you erroneously indicated. June, is a nice lady, and took your word that it was not your quote. But it was your quote and instead of apologizing you blamed it on another blogger which I thought was inappropriate and irresponsible!

You are constantly putting quotes in your blogs to prove your points, but you failed to insert the quote of the "other blogger" claiming people "flocked like sheep to the Napergate Man and his slate" to prove June and the other gals were wrong! They were right and you confused them into believing they were wrong with your unsubstantiated statement!

I think that is the issue that bothered me. You got June to apologize to you instead of you apologizing to her by misleading her into believing it was not your quote when in fact it was.

Now if you can post the origin of that quote and show it is not yours, I will extend my apologies in advance to you. Hopefully if you are wrong, you will extend your apologies to the ladies. I don't need an apology from you.

Having said that I think you are a very good blogger better than 95% of the time. But once in a while you unintentionally put your foot in your mouth and get under peoples' skin and try to blame your words on them when they call you out...such as in this case where you blamed your quote on someone else.

You have been fair in your exchanges other than your unintentional attacks which you must not realize you are doing. Yes, you do seem to have a desire and a thirst for knowledge. And you did show much interest in Napergate while at one time or another saying in a few words it is not relevant or who gives a hoot about it.(not in those exact words, of course) I guees sometimes you seem to make contradicitions in your blogs, that again I feel are unintentional. Unlike Joe, who is always INTENTIONAL in what he does!

So I hope I cleared everything up. If you can show me the "flocking of the sheep to Napergate guy" quote was not yours, I owe you a HUGE APOLOGY. Is that FAIR??? But please show me the orginal author since I reveiwed all the blogs and could not find anyone who said it before you.

SNT,

Bothering me also from DF's August letter was the reference of a poker game and it getting more expensive.

If I were a gambling man, and I was named in his suit, I would fire back with a libel suit for him (and his supporters) consistently saying actions were illegal or that people acted illegally or that false arrests were with purposeful conspiratorial intent. I think a number of libel/slander suits fired right back across the bow from each individual would be a way to 'see his bet and call him' (I believe that's the poker term).

Then, I would point out (With Napergate style full page ads) the half-truth about the money being asked for to go 'back to his supporters', where the majority of that cash is owed to his own wallet according to the D-2s filed over the years for his Citizens for Furstenau group. Voters would have to wonder if this isn't just an attempt to repay himself back for his lost campaign (the CFF group still owing him $54K back from several 'loans' from him to his group which totaled around $114K over the years ($60K of which was already 'repaid back') and using the half-truth of it being 'for his supporters' as a way to divert attention from who will really end up with that money because at first it 'sounds' like he will be giving it back to people, but the majority is really owed to himself according to their filings.

Someone already posted how to verify this. When you check, be sure to click on the blue linkies for itemizations. They are quite enlightening... It does add a very believable 'motive' for the lawsuit, in my opinion.

just because pradel burchard and senger were at a convention or part of a committee where pension reform was one of the topics discussed doesn't mean they were in support of pension reform. they were simply part of a large political group that had it as an agenda item to discuss. im sure there were many people there who were for it and many who were against it. what was the final ruling or decision? give me some proof that each of them individually was in favor of pension reform or lobbied for it. i can assure you burchard and pradel are not supporting or lobbying for police pension reform.

also, non of them were running for state senate.

Michele B -

State Board of Elections' site is at http://www.elections.state.il.us/

Hit campaign disclosure and then search for DF under candidates. Just use his last name.

Eric -

There has been much more Napergate discussion on this blog and other Sun blogs besides just advocating for a slate of candidates. To sum it up that way just isn't correct or complete.

I objected to the Napergate relevance for various reasons. They included the very lenghtly discussions regarding how much the DF case will cost based on what the Napergate case cost. I think that's apples and oranges. There was also allot of discussion regarding how Napergate Man and DF were both abused by the city. I think that at least in the case of DF, that has yet to be determined. As for the slate of candidates, that is just common sense, but I also fear that we'd be replacing the so-called Establishment with a new order and I have no idea whether or not that would be any better.

I have already said that all legal costs (now and then) should be public record. On the Napergate point, I agreed.

Your assumption that I would like to see the Establishment people stay is wrong; however, I haven't yet decided if the devil I know is better or worse than the one I don't know. Is it so hard to fathom that someone would not be on the side of the Establishment and yet not run into the waiting arms of the Napergatians and DF? It seems you have a very Bush-like "your either for us or against us" attitude.

Your assertion that I am trying to sabotage the anti-establishment discussion is laughable. If you don't want to hear any questions or hear a differing opinion, then I suggest you do your anti-establishment planning outside of a public forum. If you can't convince me to join you, how far will you really get? How widespread will the Napergatian support be?

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, just don't make asusmptions about mine.

Taxpayer -

Have you read Mrs Police Officer's posts regarding decreased life expectency, etc for cops? It was very interesting.

Joe,

I think you make alot of interesting points on these blogs, so don't let the "politicians" get you down. They obviously have an agenda.

That letter Furstenau wrote in August still troubles me too. Did you notice the line "if we cannot resolve this here, and if the city will not acknowledge its mistake, then I will ask a federal court to confirm the city's mistake."?

It appears he is willing to cost us taxpayers millions of penny's, or should I say dollars, to show the city that it made a "mistake".

Is it true that Furstenau will have to pay all the cities costs when he loses? True or not, I think he should!

Eric,

Are you reading the same blogs as the rest of us? My blogs were just asking questions about that time period and reacting to what I read from other bloggers about Napergate and I was not trying to start something. In fact, June commented that she appreciated my kind comments in my last blog back to her..." Kevin, Thank you for you kind response. Even before you wrote I mentioned that whatever you said I believed was unintentional. There is no doubt in my mind that you are a sincere person!...Posted by: June | January 3, 2008 04:22 AM"

She went on to say that... "I erroneously attributed that quote of 3500 people flocking like sheep to support the Napergate Man to you since I had not seen it before.
That really angered me a touch! I wish you could have attributed that quote to its author so the heat would have not been leveled at you...Posted by: June | January 3, 2008 04:22 AM" As you can see I was quoting another blogger and questioning what he said in my blog, I just did not put it as his comment in my blog and in turn it looked like my comment when it wasn't.

I think you are the one now trying to start something up on these blogs that is not there, the very same thing you accused me of in your blog. If you actually read my blogs you would see that numerous times I was just trying to learn more about Napergate and see what this whole thing was about. I was doing this by asking questions and making comments. I never personally attacked anyone in my blogs like you said and actually no one attacked me personally back...everyone was kind with the exception of your blog back to me. I never criticize what Napergate did during his time, I just questioned if it would still work in today's world...that was it...that is all I did. I also mentioned that some people in this town might not care about it, which was based off comments of people I personally spoke with about this topic.

Don't lump me into the same category as Joe and TB when my blogs were clearly asking questions about Napergate and not about what they were talking about. If you actually read my blogs completely, I was saying how impressed I was by what I heard about Napergate and wanted to learn more about the topic...just like you said Michele B and Taxpayer were trying to do in your blog. I even said..."I was just curious as I have read about it here and I wanted to learn more about the topic. I still want to learn more about it as it sounds like a great example of rallying people to a specific cause. ...Posted by: Kevin | January 1, 2008 10:50 AM" Here is another comment from a later blog..."Honestly, like I said in my last blog...I think the Napergate issue is a great example of someone rallying people to a specific cause and one that people can learn from...Posted by: Kevin | January 1, 2008 10:35 PM"

You mentioned in your blog about me..."They qualified it with that famous "if" thus putting the fault totally on your shoulders for the unnecessary exchange of hostile blogs!...Posted by: Eric | January 5, 2008 06:13 AM". Show me in my blogs or exchanges with other bloggers where I was "hostile" like you said? If the blogs were so hostile then why would June comment back to me what she said above about my "kind response" and call me a "sincere person"?

Eric, the next time you decide to blog in a rage, please get your facts straight. I appreciate what you are trying to do...score some points with other bloggers by defending them in your blog, but those individuals you are defending are very intelligent and can make their own points on their blogs with actual facts that show they did their homework. I hope my blog here clears up some of your false statements in your last blog, please let me know if it doesn't.

Take care,

Kevin

Eric,

This will be brief.

I have never cussed anyone out on here.
I could be asking very tough questions because I want to see where I should throw my efforts this next time around in the elections, but I'm fairly sure that thought never occurred to anyone due to the "Us versus Them" mentality that seems very prevalent on here.

This particular blog topic is about the City Attorney countering the claims of DF. It's not about elections, so forgive some of us for trying to stay on topic. Obviously the Moderator felt it fine to deviate from that (his right) but some of us like discussing the contrasting stories that are coming from both camps to try to sort out what's truth and what is fiction so we can make up our minds about who to support going forward. It's becoming clear, however, what that choice probably should be, thanks to many on here.

Kevin, TB, and Joe,
Really confused why you guys are so twisted over the relavance of Napergate to today or not wanting to know anything about it or care about it.

All I am seeing here is some old Napergatians trying to tell the Furstena Supporters(such as Taxpayer and Michelle B.) they need to think in terms of a slate instead of individual candidates in order to get anything accomplished.

I saw Taxpayer making a statement that everyone is in trouble in the next election but Furstenau. I think he is very wrong as the establishment will vote in Wehrli and Pradel no matter what they do or don't do. I think Michelle B. was talking about firing some City Officials once Furstenau gets in office. That can't happen either!

All I have seen is an education process to people like Michele B and Taxpayer from the old Napergate Members as to how difficult the process is and what it would take to make a long term future impact on our city. They are just emphasizing to the Furstenau crowd they need to push a slate like the Napergate Man did in order to have their voices heard on the council.

Kevin, T.B. and Joe don't want to hear a word about Napergate not because it is irrelavant but because it is relevant and contains the forumla to uproot some establishment members and replace them with Napergate/Furstenau candidates. The Napergate or Furstenau candidates would both have the same agenda as Fustenau so it would not matter which ones got elected as there is really no difference.

So whether it is the Napergate Pary or Furstenau's supporters that got elected the difference will be the same and bring potentially some anti-establishment candidates.

It puzzles me as Sandy, June and Debbie to think someone could have actually been partipating in elections and forums in the 1990s and somehow missed the Napergate Slate that was heavily advertised and won. And if Kevin was not participating in elections then, why open the debate with these ladies and start a nonsensical argument. All they said is they find it hard to believe someone could have been involved in the elections and not know of Napergate. Most probably a very true statement unless someone had some memory loss as Sandy substantiated in her blog.

Kevin apparently was not around at that time and that is why he does not know. Purely understandable!!! But why attack those who stated "if" you or your family were around you should have known.

I am sorry Kevin. But on this one you sounded like Joe, trying to start a baseless argument. And by you stating you don't give a hoots about Napergate you upset the ladies. Just like you care about your family, they most probably care about their political party. You were actually attacking them and I assume their party, but they never attacked you or your family. They qualified it with that famous "if" thus putting the fault totally on your shoulders for the unnecessary exchange of hostile blogs! At least that is how I see it! I could be missing something but I tried reading all the blogs over again and putting it all in context.

And Joe's attack on Debbie who also qualified it with that famous "if" was also uncalled for. Her statement is so accurate. All she said again was "if" you were invovled in elections and forums of the 90s, you would/should now about Naperate. Well of course if you were not involved you would not know...eh! But really, I personally also find it hard to believe that someone could be involved, not know the candidates, and not understand how they lined up as Establishment vs. Napergate Candidates. And since 4 of the Napergate Candidates are still serving our fine city, there is a constant current reminder as to how they came around just from their presence.

Finally, the establishment is very lucky the Napergate Man retired. If he had continued to partipate in the 2003, 2005, and 2007 elections he probably would have had a total of 6 or 7 candidates in office by today. He was a warrior and someone has to step up and continue his battle. It just seems to me Dick Furstenau combined with a court verdict in his favor, is the only one who can fill his big shoes at the moment and continue the erosion and attrition of the powerful and entrenched Establishment Party.

Mayor Pradel and Council Man Wehrli are 2 candidates even the Napergate Man could never uproot. So voters should put their energy on other seats. And realistically, no one should ever expect the entire establishment to be uprooted. In my opinion it is going to be Establishment with 4 or 5 and Napergate with 4 or 5. But if someone does not take over the Napergate Party there will be attrition and the Establishment will go back to controlling all the seats except for one or 2. Furtenau will always win! So will the Mayor and Wehrli! The other positions are all up for grabs with Darlene Senger and Douglas Krause having the best chance of keeping their seats if they fail in the state. If they win in the State the possibility exists that Furstenau could be a lone wolf, fighting a losing battle without the rebirth of the Napergate Party. So that is the importance and relevance of all this debate provided by the Napergatians.

The establishment is very organized. The anti-establishment is very disorganized after the Napergate Man retired. It seems like he was not only the organizer but the glue that kept the party together and functioning. The hidden message on these blogs amongst Furtenau supporters is something must be done to get organized and glued together to present a Slate in 2009.

At the same time Joe, Kevin, and T.B. are trying to sabotage the discussion of how the anti-establishment forces can develop some unity and leadership, by attacking an insignificant comment Debbie made and trying to make it a distraction to what needs to be accomplished. So I hope you guys stay focused and don't fall for the distractions and sabotage being perpetuated by certain individuals.

Taxpayer and Michele B. who are doing an excellent job, nonetheless keep falling prey to the trouble makers like Joe. I think they are making a mistake repsonding to Joe on a continuous basis. They are wasting their precious energy on him. They need to be communicating with the old Napergatians who are trying to be helpful and ignore Joe completely. As many said he argues for the sake of arguing. If you told him the earth is round, he will quote someone from 1491 and state the earth is flat and you can still fall off of it. I don't see the point in wasting so much energy on Joe. He is a very unique one of a kind individual that apparently has a very very boring life.

Some say he gets a high from arguing. I do not think that his only agenda. Besides his love for senseless arguing, his secondary agenda is to keep the Furtenau supporters confused, emotional, and disoriented. It is obvious he is failing but he will really sink if all pro-Furstenau and Napergate bloggers make a joint effort to ignore him.

You will not be hearing anymore about Joe from me. That is a PROMISE! Even if he cusses to call me out, I am not coming out! Don't waste your time Joe! I promise I am not responding to you and I intend to keep my PROMISE and set an example. Go ahead trying cussing me out!!!

Taxpayer,

Police pension reform is not exclusive to DF. It was a legislative priority for the Dupage mayors and Managers conference. You may find it interesting to see some other names on the comittee besides DF. How about Burchard, Senger and Mayer Pradel. If the police are out for DF because of his stance on police pention, why not the rest?

www.dmmc-cog.org/uploads/descriptions/File/LAP%20for%20PDF_LAP%20for%20PDF.pdf

Taxpayer,

Can you please get in contact with Shaneal and support her, She feels her civil rights were violated back in August at Tiger Direct here in Naperville.

http://consumerist.com/consumer/civil-rights/tigerdirect-unlawfully-restrains-and-verbally-abuses-customer-for-not-submitting-to-receipt+showing-demands-292688.php

Her case seems to have been allowed to drop on the floor and no lawyer will take her case on contingency.

She needs support.

I can't get past this part of his letter from August:

"I have been advised my civil rights have been violated"

That makes me wonder,

Is this whole thing his lawyer's (or some other advisor's) idea for a big score ?

Not "I feel" or "I felt" or "I thought".. but "I have been advised...." as if there was no suspicion or other feeling prior.

the arrest and everything that followed was done properly. this is a simple attempt to save face and lay blame elsewhere. it is a pattern of denial that has been going on for years. and taxpayer, EVERYONE who works for the city of naperville wanted DICK to win his precious senate seat probably even more than DICK did. it is a real shame we have to go through this because of HIM.

some of my posts are coming across as anonymous.

jr

verbally abusing and physically attacking a policeman in the middle of downtown with hundreds of people around while you are in the middle of a campaign does seem very foolish doesn't it. makes you wonder if it actually happened.

you would think sending furstenau to Springfield would be better to get him out of town, but the fact of the matter was it would be more damaging to the police if he was in Springfield. the reason is simple, one of furstenau's major campaign issues for state senate was saving taxpayers a ton of money by restructuring the way police pensions are funded and administered. he could have actually done more damage to police pensions as a state representative than as a naperville city councilman. that is one of the reasons he believes they didn't want him to win, they were protecting their pensions he promised to decrease.

furstenau had issues with the extraordinarily high payouts as well as the shorter than usual time to reach full pension. he also didn't like that they allow double dipping - a person could retire fairly young with a full pension and then go work full time within the same civic government and get paid full salary there while collecting a full pension from the city. he promised to change that in an attempt to save taxpayers millions. he can't do that as a councilman but he could do that as a state senator.

the last thing any policeman wanted to see was furstenau winning the election and winding up in Springfield where he could actually do some damage. there already is some clamor in Springfield about fighting these pensions and they knew they couldn't afford another one as strong as furstenau in the fight.

joe

i never assumed anything. you asked openly if we would support you if you were in furstenau's exact position and suing the city over the exact same incident. i answered and said i would support you. i said IF your felt your civil rights were violated and you felt you needed to sue, as furstenau does, i would support you. i didn't ASSUME anything. i simply responded to your question.

typical joe post. i don't know why i allow myself to break my own rule about talking to a ill-logical moron. it's never worth it, and i should know that.

my bad.

news flash for the rest of you. his campaign contributions have nothing to do with whether or not his civil rights were violated. they are irrelevant. furstenau has the right to determine the amount he wants to seek based on anything he would like. chief dial, officer's cross and hull and the investigation will be on trial, not the merit of what furstenau wants to do with the money if he wins. if furstenau would like to use the money to recover funds from the campaign it doesn't matter. it doesn't matter if he wants to use the money to buy and airplane. i assure each of you, if furstenau and his attorney can prove his civil rights were violated by a sham investigation which inappropriately landed him in court, it won't matter what the money is for, city will lose.

i am aware the city will use this info as a smoke screen to divert attention from the real issue, but it won't be anything more than a smoke screen. they will need to defend the arrest and the investigation and show that it was properly done from beginning to end or else they will lose.

Was DF's arrest the deciding factor in the election? Personally, I don't think so, but if it was, it was DF that initiated the whole chain of events. Verbally abusing and possibly physically striking a police officer during a political campaign seems foolish. Also, if it was Dial's desire to get DF off the city council, wouldn't sending him to Springfield be a lot better idea then sabotaging his election chances and keeping him in town?

Terri,

People often make the mistake in assuming that just because I am not in their camp that I must, by default, be in the 'other' camp.

I assure you, this is where most confusion originates.

T.B.,

I'm not sure whether polling was done. But, I agree with you that campaign spending plays a big role in determining the winner. Who knows whether or not the criminal case "cost" Furstenau the election. However, it's pretty clear that it had an impact and it's not a big stretch of the imagination to believe the NPD intended it to have an impact.

By the way, do you mind sharing a link to the campaign finance data you posted? Thanks

TB,

RE: the 54K debt

Did you see the 6/28/2005 'loan' from DF to Citizens for Furstenau ?

Amount: $100,000

Paid himself back $60K on 3/23/3006
Loaned them another $7K on 6/9/2006
Still has outstanding loans to them from 2003 also totaling another $7K

That makes your $54K debt.

I tend to lean towards your speculation because that money could very easily come right back to him (to repay the outstanding loans) when it is all said and done. But we've been 'assured' it's not for personal reasons, so I'm not sure how else this should be interpreted.

Michelle B.
Thanks for your great long post again. It really explains everything. Your definition of establishment vs. anti-establishment is very clear. Similar to the Napergate folks definition but I think you explained it a touch better.

Funny, how I am looking for links between the Napergate Era and the post Era, and everyone is mentioning this Brestal Character as a common denominator of sorts.

Yes, it does scare me how these people are so powerful and interconnected. Yes, it scares me they don't recuse themselves.

And it seems the Napergate Man's battle was similar to Furtenau's battle. As Taxpayer indicated they seemed to have the very same principles and Furtenau seemed to have kept all his promises to the Napergate Party and never wavered in his role as Watchdog of Government.

Again thanks for you post and keep them rolling. We are all learning so much you can not learn in print newspapers.

Since you mentioned you don't mind taking on Joe, what are your thoughts of him suddenly saying he is anti-establishment. I always read him as being all out establishment. The more I read about him the more he has me spinning as he seems to be on the opposite side of any issue brought forward by any blogger. He just seems like the kind of guy who would be born in China and argue he was born in India because the United Nations screwed up the boundaries. I have never seen anyone like him in my life. Just curious, if you believe he is ANTI-ESTABLISHMENT as he suddenly professed. Next, he might claim the leadership of the Napegate Party by default since Fursteau did not step up quick enough. You never know with, Joe.

Michele B -

I wonder if there was there any polling done prior to the arrest? I haven't been able to locate any reports of polling before and after.

I was able to find, however, reports that DF was outspent by Hultgren $232K to $145K (figures rounded), but I haven't been able to confirn this on the State Board of Elections site since I don't know what time period they consider "for the election" and the reports are broken down by quarters. I would suggest, however, that money plays a significant role in our current elections. Sad, but true.

I did find it interesting, though, that the last report available shows Citizens for Furstenau is down to $271 cash available and owes DF $54K. Maybe this is why he wants his settlement to go to his supporters?

Taxpayer,

You're making the assumption that my rights were violated though.
If all the citizens of Naperville started to sue the city for alleged civil rights violations, do you think some might be figments of their imaginations or do you just assume all are automatically with merit and all 130,000+ cases should proceed forward?

Tb

i think furstenau still would have sued if he would have won election. he has stated he was most upset with them attempting to throw him in prison for 15 years for nothing more than an alleged touch with the back of the hand. like you say, there may be nothing inappropriate about them seeking felony charges, but we will see. the fact he lost the election was only what determined the $ amount he was asking for.

jr

if furstenau only needed 14% more of the vote, it isn't a stretch to believe his opponents broad and direct use of the incident to campaign against him could have cost him 10-15% of the votes. he circulated several flyers that were totally about the incident saying furstenau had been arrested for battering a police officer and, as michele said, quotes from margo and dial calling furstenau a hot-head. the fact is no one knows if furstenau would or would not have won the election without the arrest. it doesn't matter. he believes they were out to damage his chances and it certainly did that. to what degree is purely speculation.

joe

if you ever believe a cop violates your civil rights or your due process, you sue the hell out of them. im behind you 100%. there is nothing more despicable, in my opinion, than dirty cops, who have taken an oath to serve and protect, who abuse their power and and attempt to violate civil liberties to serve their own purposes. it happens all the time, just ask the many folks on death row a few years ago. joe, you wouldn't be getting the pub, but remember furstenau's publicity is both positive and negative so you wouldn't have to deal with your name being dragged through the mud.

i would support anyone who feels their civil rights have been violated. those types of allegations are serious and if true are more important than saving the taxpayers a few bucks. i would never ask you to forgo your civil rights so i can save a little money.

For the record, Hultgren's campaign capitalized big time the charges against furstenau. They even mailed a flyer out the week before the election that was dedicated to charges against furstenau with quotes from Chief Dial & the City Attorney. The flyer was sent to over 10,000 voters.

No offense, Joe, but that's about the most interesting and non-confrontational post I think I've seen from you in a while.

Good point, though. I wouldn't give your case a second thought and wouldn't think it had a chance to succeed. It would be just a small blip in The Sun, even it even made the paper.

Obviously I meant to say DF is no ordinary citizen, not officer. I must need more caffein.

My prior post assumed Hultgren's vote count would remain the same. If the total vote number stayed constant DF would have needed to change the votes of 14% of the voters. Much closer, but its still not real close.

To Anonymous at 10:52

You are right that people have the right to approach police officers with their concerns; however, you fail to take into account the fact that DF is no ordinary officer. He is on the city council and his interjection into the NPD chain of command is inappropriate. It puts the officer in a very awkward position, to say the least. Anyone on the force would react differently to you or me and, say, DF or the mayor. I think that's obvious.

Also, I did not say that DF was interfering with the officer, those were your words. I merely stated that the officer had better things to do and DF could have handled the situation better. I then went on to say the NPD could have handled it better, also. There's plenty of blame to go around and I don't think one side has a monopoly on it.

You're entitled to why you think the officers wanted felony charges, but their job is to advocate for the charge they believe best fits the crime. They can get it wrong sometimes and they can also be over-ruled, as happened in this case. The bottom line is we don't know and to say they did it solely to discredit DF is making a giant assumption. Unfortunately, this won't see a courtroom for months to years.

DF's not suing because he lost the election, but yet it was a motivating factor? Couple that with the fact he wants at least some of the damages to go to his political supporters and I think he's suing exactly because he lost the election. Does anyone think he would have sued if he won?

To Anonymous at 11:15

This lawsuit is against the taxpayers and that's why we're so concerned about not only what DF is doing, but also what the city council is doing. I don't think it's selfish to say that we're concerned about what is draining the city's funds.

I don't think DF checked his rights at the door when he was elected, but think he could have better served his cause by being proactive in the council and during the elections to promote change. Now he can't do that without allot of council support (or a new slate as has been suggested) because he's become a polarizing figure.

Sue the NPD for a rights violation? Fine. But once he added seemingly everyone else in the city he wandered into the no-man's-land of conspiracy theories along the lines of Roswell, Elvis, and JFK. A more simple and streamlined lawsuit would have been easier for citizens to grasp and accept.

An interesting thought just occurred.

How many here would be championing my right to sue the city in this situation if I was the one who stepped in when cars were being towed and the situation unfolded exactly like it had, but instead of DF, it was me. ??

Anonymous,

DF lost his primary race for state senate 6387 votes to 11510. Thats aprox. 65% to 35%. DF would have really needed 80% more votes to make it a race. It was in reality not even close.

Terri,

Thanks for your comment. But, I can't shed much light on the Napergate era. Like you, I'm learning from this blog.

I can, however, comment on "establishment" vs "anti-establishment" councilmen. The Establishment is essentitally the Naperville "good ole boy network". Networks like this exist in every town. They establishment is well-connected, knows how to work the system, has political power and is not shy about using it. They typically work behind the scenes and you rarely see an "establishment" guy speaking in open city council meetings.

Everyone has a right to create political networks and grow their power base. So, I don't have a problem with the "Establishment" until they become too strong. By that, I mean when the Establishment has become so entrenched that they can get away with things that are not in the City's best interest for their own personal gain. Or, when they can quash any voice of dissent that challenges their actions or power base.

The easiest way to "spot" the establishment at work is to watch closely as development projects, that are hugely unpopular with the general public, get approved by city council. Examples include Hobson Ponds rezoning, Water Street Building Heights, the Edwards Hospital expansion height & bulk, the parking garage in front of Nichols Library and many others.

The archtypical "Establishment Guy" is the land use attorney, Bill Brestal. Yes, that's the same law firm that has recently hired Councilman Rosanova's son, Vincent. You can see from his resume (following) that Vicent practices in government, land planning, zoning & land use.

Vincent M. Rosanova (Associate) born Winfield, Illinois, July 15, 1977; admitted to bar, 2005, Illinois. Education: Lewis University (B.A., Business, 2002); Northern Illinois University College of Law (J.D., 2005). Phi Delta Phi, 2003-2005. Recipient, Brewster Parker Prize, Outstanding Achievement in Property, Real Estate & Land Use Law. Instructor, Teaching Graduate Assistantship, Contracts, Northern Illinois University College of Law, 2004-2005. Practice Areas: Government; Zoning, Planning and Land Use; Contracts. Email: Vincent M. Rosanova

Another "Connected" firm is MidAmerica Development. MidAmerica recently hired Jim Boyajian's son, Jon Boyasian. Midamerica is handling the 350,000 sqft shopping center development at rt 59 & 95th street. An adjacent parcel owned by Subach is connected in some way to MidAmerica, has been the source of criticizm of Furstenau. Here's the shopping center info: {{Naperville NWC Rt. 59 & 95th St. Kerasotes Theatre, Restaurants, Specialty Shops]]

Finally, old-line families like the Wherli family are very "connected". Family members set on numerous business associations, city boards and commissions and wield different degrees of power. Some Wherli family members have held ownship within the Water Street development and other property's seeking entitlements from City Council.

So, when you see a member of City Council, such as Rosanova, Boyajian or Wherli, voting on issues that have the potential or event the appearance of a potential conflict of interest, you should be able to insist that they recuse themselves from the vote. After all, we have 9 votes on city council. One councilman cannot claim to be "so important" that they have to vote on an issue that appears less than "squeaky clean."

The Municipal Code states the following regarding "Disclosure"
==============================================================
1-13-4: DISCLOSURE AND ABSTENTION:

When any member of the City Council has an ownership, employment, or family interest, in a proposed contract, business, or transaction with the City, which interest is allowed by Section 1-13-3 of this Chapter, such Council member shall file with the City Manager a written disclosure of such interest, a description of such interest, the provision of Section 1-13-3 of this Chapter relied upon, and a description of the applicability of such exception on a form as follows:

DISCLOSURE OF INTEREST
IN CONTRACT, BUSINESS, OR TRANSACTION

Name: ______________________________

Position with City: _____________________

Name of entity contracting with City: _______

Proposed contract, business, or transaction: ___

I have an [ ] Ownership

[ ] Employment

[ ] Family

interest in the proposed contract, business, or transaction as follows: ____________________________________________________________

I am entitled to have such an interest under the provisions of Section 1-13-3 ____ because of the following facts: ______________

Dated: ____________ _

Signature

1. Such written disclosure shall be filed with the City Manager not later than the call to order of the City Council meeting at which the proposed contract, business, or transaction is to be considered. The City Manager shall bring the written notification to the attention of the City Council in public when the item is called on the agenda for consideration.

2. A member of the City Council having an interest for which a disclosure is required shall leave the chamber where deliberations take place during the discussion and vote on the interested matter and shall not vote on said matter. (Ord. 87-70, 6-2-1987)
=================================================================

A "squeaky clean" City Councilman would fill out this form each time he faced a potential conflict of interest. Instead, Wherli, Rosanova and Boyajian, feel comfortable enough as part of the "Establishment" to simply berate someone who dares to question their "integrity".

On the otherhand, an "anti-establishment" guy like Furstenau has to put up with challenges from the "Establishment" that another councilman (Krouse) who earned $500 dollars over the course of eight years in dealings with Furstenau, should recuse himself from the Furstenau censure vote.

So, establishment vs anti-establishment (at least in Naperville) is defined by the belief that those "connected" people, businesses or families in Naperville have gained too much power. In doing so, the quality, fairness and integrity of our local government is suffering. And, when an anti-establishment guy like Furstenau attempts go against or challenge the establishment, they exercise that power in a retaliation. They attempt to "kill the messenger" because they cannot rebut the message.

i was responding to taxpayer and others who keep repeating the mantra, "he was found innocent " only that. now, as for the mountain of evidence, this is in regards to allegations leading to DICK's censure regarding city employee's allegations. i would like to put to rest this notion that because he is "abrasive" and not "lily white" it is o.k. to stomp on people rights, to lie, and discredit good people . as for the police incident, i as many people believe it most likely happened. he fits a pattern that can only tell you it HAS to be true. i can surely see him in a rage exclaiming, " do you know who I am !!" i understand this went through courts, found NOT GUILTY. but so did o.j. simpson. does not mean he didn't do it. now, we are suppose to believe that there is a great conspiracy and a web of lies and deceit starting with the police, the city manager, some of the city council, the city attorney, and all the city employee's who have accused him of various infractions. so, we will simply say "they" are lying, just to help officer hull and p. burchard, and margo ely. a great big bunch of people who don't even know each other, all out to get poor taxpayers friend, holding the city ransom for 5 million dollars DICK. that is my new one ! 5 MILLION DOLLAR DICK ! I LOVE IT. and as for what am i smoking ? i am sure it is better than your bogus stash. if you want him gone, email: furstenaur@naperville.il.us

tb

i think you are right, we aren't very far off on where we stand. we just have some different perspectives on more technical issues. that is why i enjoy debating you. i think you have good understanding, and although i disagree with some, your logical in your approach.

mcFarland

i know very little about fustenau and his connections with the napergate man and his supporters. i just know that napergate supported furstenau because we was very politically active in city issues before he became a councilman and he was always trying to defend taxpayer money and prevent excessive spending or waste.

i know that every time furstenau ran for office his slogan was "Taxpayers are Customers" and it continued to say something to the effect of: Service from the city should be prompt, efficient and delivered with a smile.

i don't know if napergate and furstenau really knew each other or not and, if they did, how well they knew each other. i do know that furstenau's approach and promises resonated with napergate and his supporters and they knew furstenau would always defend and be an advocate for taxpayers and their money and was tough enough to stand up and fight the establishment.

if your read posts from the napergate people on here, they say they endorsed him for these very promises, and since he has been elected, he has kept every promise he made to them. they say they knew he had a very strong and brash personality but that was one of the things they liked about him. they knew he would be strong enough to take stands when needed.

my perspective is that this lawsuit is not against taxpayers. he has the right to sue and he didn't check his civil rights at the door when he was elected. he is also a taxpayer and deserves a chance to defend his rights. i think people who think he should turn the other cheek and let it slide to save them some money are being selfish to a degree. i think they have the right to be concerned about the cost, bu i think they should understand that if a person's civil rights are violated they should get their day in court. i also think that if furstenau wins his case and proves his allegations, he will be doing a service to the community well worth the cost to ride the city of corrupt people in positions of power. just my opinion. i am going to wait and see what happens.

tb.

i think that anyone has the right to approach any policeman at any time to express concern over something you believe is not right or unfair. policeman are there for the public good. they are not beyond reproach, they are supposed to be approachable and accessible to the public. i think this applies to any citizen, and dick furstenau is a citizen of naperville. its not like they were in the middle of some emergency or crisis situation where they should have been left alone to focus on the situation. it isn't like he attempted to physically hold hull back or laid down in the street to stop the tow truck. he simply asked them to allow people some time to move their cars after the signs weren't posted. i don't find that to be inappropriate in any way. we all have that right, councilman or not. interfering with a policeman in the performance of his duties speaks more toward trying to actually prevent him or actually keep them from doing their duties, not asking them to be understanding about the situation or disputing the fact they shouldn't tow. believe me, if approaching the officer was in any way illegal or inappropriate, he would have been charges with it along with battery.

about the felony charges, you should look up felony aggravated assault on a cop and see what type of actions it involves or requires. you will find that this case has no where near that amount of evidence nor was the action nearly severe enough. in the end, the cops said furstenau touched hull with the back of his hand in an offensive manner. does that deserve 15 years in prison? felony assault is well beyond that type of action. i think the cops were going after it because felony charges would have smeared his reputation more and maybe even caused him to step down from the council. i believe that if you just touched a cop with the back of your hand in a manner that was not intended to intimidate or threaten, and they tried to take that and throw you in prison for 15 years, you would be very upset and motivated to get back at them. that was over the top. and he has always stating he never even touched hull. it was just their side that said he touched him with the back of his hand.

his election was fairly close. he lost the vote 40%-60%. consider all the negative material written in the press and circulated in fliers and addressed in appearances by his opponent and it doesn't take are rocket scientist to realize it definitely had a negative effect. whether it cost him the election, no one knows. could it have made the 10% difference he needed? it is irrelevant. furstenau isn't suing because it cost him the election. he is only stating that was one of the motivations behind the cops charging him. it was to make sure he wouldn't win.

d.bone

im not sure what you are smoking. i believe the quote you are referring to is about the censure allegations, not the incident with hull. when a man is cleared in court in anyway (acquitted, not guilty, etc.) that means that in the eyes of the court he didn't do what he was accused of. it may be that there was some evidence of it and that the burden of proof wasn't meant, but that still means that in the eyes of the court he didn't do anything wrong. but get over that. furstenau isn't suing because he was found innocent. there isn't a mountain of evidence against him. on the contrary, the only thing the cops had was the word of one cop on his own that he was hit. furstenau had 3 witnesses he didn't know come forward and state he didn't hit anyone. the cops ignored them and didn't interview some of them and went on with the charges. they didn't have a case. again, you don't know the facts. of course the cities attorney is going to state furstenau has no case and furstenau was guilty, what do you expect him to say? we will all learn the facts when it comes out.

in the end, it doesn't matter if furstenau did touch him or even punch him in the face. he has been cleared. be assured the incident itself will not be retried. he isn't suing because he was found innocent. he is suing because he believes his due process was violated during the investigation. what is on trial now is the investigation that lead to his arrest. if the cops did anything inappropriate that denied any part of his due process to land him in court, they will lose. if it is found they fabricated or exaggerated any part of the story or evidence, lied in reports or altered reports inappropriately, hid or ignored any evidence that would have cleared him, done anything inappropriate with the states attorney, etc. they will lose. that is what is on trial now. not the incident and whether or not he touched hull. even if he punched him, if they fabricated evidence or lied to get him to court, they will lose.

T.B.

I think some are too blinded by their blind support and group-think mentality believing they have to keep repeating the party line and attack anyone who posts anything that deviates from there.

Maryann, This is why I said I do not like group-think mentality (Establishment or otherwise). There are always more than 2 choices in life. It seems I was correct in assuming there is a "Us versus Them" mentality going on. Pity, because I actually like MOST of what DF stood for. I can't support someone who can't even fathom the possibility that they might be wrong. Before you chime in, notice that when HEL called out that I was wrong about NG man and what my neighbor said that I conceded with her? Yes, I was wrong believing the information passed on to me and I was very thankful for her to clarify it.

There's a new breed of voters in town that have backfilled the empty nesters who have left and who have sprawled out to the southwest. I think you'll be quite surprised when you find out what really matters to them. Most are too busy to give a rat's butt about 'bucking the establishment'. They want consistency and predictability in their overly scheduled lives. In most cases, the establishment gives that. If they feel their predictability is in jeopardy they take note and take action.

2009 will be an interesting election. I predict that if DF drops his suit, those new voters will actually support him because he is no longer threatening their city with more mayhem and wasting taxpayer money and resources. If he continues, his actions will be seen as a threat to their predictability of life in the town they live in. I believe it will backfire in a huge way against him to continue.

June –

The 2 sentences were back to back, so my apologies if I misinterpreted the 2nd one as directed at me. I’m sure you can see how one would think so.

Next, what Debbie wrote was misguided and I would think that you would want to distance yourself a bit and not whole-heartedly agree. Her 12 points were not factual, but were opinions based on assumptions about people she does not know. In fact, her opening sentence misstates what I posted earlier about living in Naperville. I was not here during the Napergate times, but have married into a family that has been here for decades. We’ve discussed Naperville and politics often and the Napergate topic has never come up. That’s all I was saying. People who have come here after Napergate don’t know about it, don’t particularly care, and even long-time Naperville residents don’t dwell on the issue, either.

Debbie then goes on to insult me for posting as “anonymous” when she clearly didn’t know what she was talking about. That was an uncalled for attack and I think I’ve already cleared the air on the anonymous post issue.

It’s great that she feels strongly and has an opinion; I just wish she’d have an informed opinion so there is some basis for what she writes and doesn’t just write a lengthy tirade based on a false statement.

For you to suggest I was looking for some kind of sympathy is ludicrous. I don’t want or need your sympathy. In fact, I really don’t care what you or Debbie or anyone else thinks of me, so your little statement that I will be the most (or 2nd most) hated person on the blog is meaningless. I’m writing to express my opinions, not try to win any new friends or gain any sort of approval.

If you want to criticize Joe, maybe you and Debbie should stop your own attacks? You can try to lump me in with Joe to marginalize what I have to say, but maybe you should stop this subtle little attack and just stick to ideas instead.

everyone repeat after me... DICK was found not guilty, not INNOCENT. taxpayer, big difference. read soto's response it is eloquent and EXACT. there is a MOUNTAIN of evidence against DICK. there are no witnesses to support him. only against. he has NO CASE !

"The Establishment Party likes little to no change and wants to control the town...keep the status quo! The Napergate Party likes change and wants more control and rights for residents who were not decendants of the founders of the town."

Posted by: Jenny | January 4, 2008 05:16 AM

Jenny,

Any examples of specific policy goals, a platform,or projects that either group supports? What is it about DF that puts him on the side fighting the establishment besides his lawsuit? Your definition seems to be Establishment has power Napergate wants it.

Taxpayer,

I actually don’t think that we’re that far apart in our opinions.
You think DF’s attempts to settle look legit and I don’t deny that they may have been legit. I’m just saying that any time there’s a threat (implicit or not) of legal action, that can create the appearance of extortion to an outsider. After all, DF is no ordinary citizen, but is a sitting city councilman who is alleged to be the champion of the taxpayers.

I laughed at DF’s reasoning for the money--to repay his supporters for his failed campaign. First of all, if DF has so many supporters, why did he lose the primary even after the arrest? Secondly, I think it will be difficult or impossible to prove a cause and affect between the arrest and his election loss, especially since he lost to an electable candidate and not some nobody.

Just to be clear, I have never disputed the parking signs. Don’t lump me in with Joe on that issue. I don’t care about the signs and believe the issue is tangential to the real issue.

I think we agree on DF’s accusations regarding the arrest--the probable cause was false. I don’t agree or disagree with DF. I think we probably won’t know until this hits the courts. I am dumbfounded by people who are set 100% either way, when at this point I don’t think we really know all the facts and there are always two sides to every story.

I also have no problem with the cops seeking felony charges in the DF case. I think the cops should seek the severest penalty they can get in every case. If misdemeanor charges were enough to derail DF’s primary run, why would the alleged conspiracy members need felony charges? This seems to indicate to me that the cops actually believed in the charges they were advocating.

DF may have asked for a supervisor while on the street with Ofcr. Hull, but he had already confronted the officer while he was performing his duties. I really don’t think a councilman should be bothering officers on the street. When I say DF should have contacted the Chief or the watch commander, I am saying he should have called someone in the NPD hierarchy at NPD HQ on the phone. I just don’t think councilmen should inject themselves into street situations. The NPD officers already have enough to deal with without councilmen (any of them) chiming in.

It seems you assume that I am 100% against DF. I am not, though I admit to voting against him for one very specific reason. But I also think that this could have been handled differently. DF could have handled himself better during the situation. The NPD could have handled the entire situation better. If one is to believe even part of Burchard’s letter and city employees had complained about DF’s behavior in the past, the council had ample opportunity to censure DF before the lawsuit and avoid the appearance of retaliation.

Lastly, while acknowledging DF’s right to sue the city or the NPD just as any other citizen, I have a real problem with a city councilman suing the city he represents.

T.B.

Welcome Aboard Joe,

It is nice to hear you are anit-establishment. Here are your comments.

"Maryann and June,

You both seem to think I am Mr. Establishment. Trust me, I am not. I would venture a guess that I am more Anti-Establishment than you are. In fact, I would put dollars to donuts on it."

I guess since we only have 2 parties in Naperville, and you are anti-establishment, you must be a Napergatian.

Just wanted to welcome you to our Napergate Party.

Maryann
PS. I am being sarcastic. I just wanted to have fun watching Joe argue that he is both ant-Establishment and anti-Napergate and figure out what party he is a member of. For all we know he may have started his own 3rd party since he is an "independent" thinker like no other as he wants us to believe.

PS. For the record I am not a member of the Napergate Party, but just began learning more about it in recent weeks as I talked to my many neighbors who seemed to remember the party and its founder very well. I do wish Furstenau would lead the party again as it would give us a chance to work for a party that supports him. I just don't think he can take on City Hall by himself without a huge amounts of supporters. From talking to my neighbors, it just seemed like the Napergate Guy established huge grass roots support over a decade before he was able to take on City Hall and somehow beat them! Hopefully DF will do the same soon!

TB,
You are making a fuss over nothing about what I said below:

******************************************************************
"You then went on to say that “I have to agree with her [Debbie] that if someone lives in town and does not vote and participate in elections, they don't care which direction the town takes.”
******************************************************************

Posted by: T.B. | January 3, 2008 09:22 AM

I still agree with Debbie. She said "if" and since you and your family voted this does not apply to you.

So she was telling an anonymous person in a hypothetical that "if" one does NOT care to vote, it can be assumed they don't care.

Any you jump out of nowhere and say she is talking about your family while she had no clue you were anonymous. And neither did I! You are not the only one ever to post anonymous.

Debbie made 12 great points regarding Napergate and why you had to have some kind of clue about it if you were a voter during its prime time. She made sense! All you could do is take one point out of her 12 that had an "if" in it and try to hurt her credibility.

I am sorry but I have to defend her. The 12 points she posted are very factual and very well known to be true amongst us old timers who were around in the Napergate Era.

So you directed the attack all by yourself, against yourself and your family to get some sympathy for YOURSELF! Debbie and I never directed any attack towards you. It was against an "if" hypothetical family.

Boy T.B., you are beginning to sound like Joe. I would not keep this up unless you want to be the most unpopular person bloggin....I take that back....2nd most unpopular. No one could ever beat Character Joe. He is one of a kind!!!

Michelle B.
You seem to have a lot of current knowledge on our council members.

I am just wondering if you know what the relationship between Fustenau and the Napergate Party is or was? Does he still work with that movement or is he some how decided to become an independent lone wolf rebel?

I am new to town and just wondering if you know if Napergate really endorsed this guy in so many full page ads as some bloggers are saying. I have not found time to go to the library so I thought I would check with you since your large post indicated you were leaps and bounds above everyone in current affairs. But maybe what I am asking you is if you could tie the current to the past for us assuming you are on old timer and not a new timer like me.

Terri

Taxpayer,
You seem like the staunchest Furstenau supporter and I am assuming you know him well.

My question is what do you think of all these Napergatians that have been arriving in large numbers on these blogs supporting Furtenau. Not as much as you but it is obvious where their leanings are!

Do you think Furtenau knows of all this support he is getting?
Do you think Furstenau appreciates all this support from his old friends in the Napergate Movement? What is your personal opinion of all this support he is getting by Napergatians? Do you think it is more helpful or more harmful?

What is this "establishment" that everyone is talking about? Who are they and what do they stand for? And I am not talking about during this napergate period(this blog is the first I have heard of it)but now. It seems as though this term is being used without any understanding of what the "establishment" stands for in terms of policy, goals,ect.

Posted by: JR | January 3, 2008 06:16 PM

JR,
I think Establishment is a word that became popular in the Napergate Era so it is hard to separate it completely from that era as it got its root then. Apparently it is still used as you noted in current times. I think when residents run for City Council there was/is no Republican or Democratic candidates. It used to be old timers from town were known as Establishment Folks since they established the town. You could say they controlled the town for 165 years and fielded candidates from amongst the founders who pretty much won all the time since there was never anyone who dared to oppose them or run against them. And if they dared, they had 0 chance of winning!

The Napergate Man was the first person who attempted to field a slate outside of establishment folks and somehow got them all elected as a slate in one of his attempts. In other attempts he did not get the whole slate elected. Maybe half or 3 out of 4. ..I can't remember for sure. But in the year he won his court battle against the city, residents must have been upset at the Establishment and voted all 4 of his Napergate candidates to the City Council! Only 4 seats were open and his candidates took them all. It was unheard of in city politics at that time. A clean sweep against the Mighty Establishment you could say!

So instead of having Democratic and Republican Party candidates competing for seats in Council, you have Establishment Party vs Napergate Party candidates. The parties are not well publicized by those names but those heavily involved in Naperville Politics understand the unofficial party system. There are currently 4 Napergate Council Memebrs and 4 or 5 Establishment Members. It is not clear if the Mayor is neutral or leans a touch towards the Establishment especially when the kitchen is on fire!

The Establishment Party likes little to no change and wants to control the town...keep the status quo! The Napergate Party likes change and wants more control and rights for residents who were not decendants of the founders of the town.

Since the Napergate Man made peace with the town and seemed to have retired after 20 years of battling, it is obvious that the new leader of the Napergate Party is Dick Furstenau by default. His agenda is almost identical to that of the Napergate Man's agenda. He holds city officials responsible for their actions and their spending just like the Napergate Man. The city does not like to be held accountable. It seems like it is very well known that when the Napergate Man tried to hold them accountable for the millions they spent fighting him, rather than being held accountable the records EVARPORATED to never be seen again.

Anyone who goes to the library and reviews Napergate ads finds that the Napergate's Man favorite candidate was always DF. He always gave him a 9 out of 10 which I believe was the highest rating he gave to any candidate from either party. His ads in the library indicate he ranked all candidates with a score regardless of party. Someone like former Mayor Samuel McCrane would have been lucky to get a 0 or 1 under his scale of 1 to 10.

Until the DF incident erupted like a volcano, there really was peace and tranquility between both parties because of Mayor Pradel. It is well known he is the peace maker in town that quieted things and brought Naperville out of Napergate to be recognized as the second best place to live in America after Ft. Collins, Colorado. Many people recognize Pradel for his friendliness but few people understand how hard this Mayor works behing the scenes to make peace between all residents and leaders. He is a true leader with great diplomatic skills that few residents know about. He just does things quietly and never seeks recognition for what he does.

It seems obvious that the Napergate Man does not want to rock the boat because he feels that Mayor Pradel is a very stablizing force and good man. Both parties respect Mayor Pradel and he seems to be a unifying force. Mayor Pradel does not have an ego or a chip on his shoulders so he has gained the respect of both parties and seems to be neutral on the surface but deep down is believed beholden to the Establishment Party. Where his heart is does not matter, because the man has a conscience that would never let him be unfair to either party or their respective members.

This DF incident has led to much instability in town. Reading these blogs, it seems dozens and dozens of Napergatians have been writing and seem upset. I suspect they feel he is leaning a little towards the right and want him to lean back left a little and be neutral again.

I am not sure what is going to happen. But it seems like either the Mayor is going to have to make some quick peace with DF or continue to upset DF to the point where he rejuventates the Napergate Party. As many others, I feel Mayor Pradel will diffuse the situation before we start paying these million of dollars to outside law firms and seeing full page NAPERGATE ADS on a weekly basis again! He may have to have a chat with his Police Chief who may have made the terrible decision to charge DF and wake up a "sleeping" Napergate Party.

Mayor Pradel is not like former Mayor McCrane. He will never destroy records. He is too ethical, honest and a moral man. Thus he will not allow the citizens to suffer at the hands of outside attorneys to the tune of millions of dollars. He would feel responsible. And like DF, Mayor Pradel also cares about fiscal responbility. I would say right behind Furtenau. Now one can dispute that Furstenau is #1 when watching the city budget!

So my guess is Mayor Pradel is going to have to knock some sense in his other 7 children to bring a compromise with the 8th child. Watch him succeed! As others have stated if he can make peace with the Napergate Man he can make peace with anyone inculding DF or aliens on the moon. Making peace with the Napergate Man was no easy feat, but Mayor Pradel pulled it off! (As others correctly noted, the former 3 Mayors just kept pouring gasoline on the fire until they got us Napergate.)

That is my version of the situation. I know others have given different versions. The truth is always found somewhere between all the versions. I will admit I don't know the whole truth but this is my version as I best recall it!

What is this "establishment" that everyone is talking about? Who are they and what do they stand for? And I am not talking about during this napergate period(this blog is the first I have heard of it)but now. It seems as though this term is being used without any understanding of what the "establishment" stands for in terms of policy, goals,ect.

tb

i don't know the circumstances behind furstenau first two attempts before the lawsuit. it seems genuine to me. he asked for modest discipline then asked for 130k and most of it was to be paid back to his supporters. if you read his interview with his attorney, his attorney says that he was on board at that time and helped write the letter, but told furstenau that if the city agreed to settle, he would not require any attorney fees from him. he could use the entire amount to pay back the people he wanted to pay back. i would hardly call that request, extortion. it was like an offer to settle out of court and avoid a suit before it was filed. seems like a good faith kind of thing to do even if you don't agree if he deserves the money. you can always say no, as the city did, but i would hardy call is request, extortion.

about the sign postings. i agree that it has nothing to do with this case at this point. it is irrelevant. the wise and all knowing joe was just hung up on it and you also continued to dispute it so i was just debating with you. but i agree we should move on.

i understand that an arrest can be legit even when a man is innocent, but furstenau is alleging the cops exaggerated an incident knowing it was not something that warranted arrest. there were 3 witnesses who said they saw the whole thing and nothing happened. the cops investigation ignored them and charged him based on hull's story alone. furstenau has also said that the main reason he decided to sue was because, not only was he falsely accused, but the NPD initially sought felony charges that would have put him in prison for 15 years. he had a real issue with that. if they had initially tried for the misdemeanor charges they eventually settled for, maybe he wouldn't have been so angry and motivated to sue the people involved.

one thing to keep in mind as well. you and joe have said furstenau should have left hull alone and gone to the supervisor or chief. the fact of the matter is that he did do that. in his interview he said he approached hull and challenged the fact he was towing cars when the signs were not properly posted in time. hull responded by saying he was following orders. at that point furstenau asked hull to contact the supervisor so he could speak with him. that is when hull brought in officer schindlebeck. (not sure if that is the correct name or spelling)

im not saying anything about whether or not he is or isn't going to win. im only saying that 95% of what people are focusing on has no bearing with how this case will be decided. and there are a lot of things that people speculate should or shouldn't have happened, but the fact is they are speculating, and they may find out, in the end, they actually did or didn't happen. (kind of a confusing sentence. sorry. im a math and science wiz but suck at writing) when all the facts come out they may realize that something, in deed, looks fishy.

it is no secret im a furstenau supporter, i have know him a long time. i am just surprised that some people are so 100% against him before hearing his side of the story. let him have his day in court, learn all the facts, then see where you stand is my opinion. no one is more against frivolous lawsuits and money hungry attorneys then me, but there is no way any of us know this lawsuit is frivolous at this point. we won't know until all the facts come out. joe insists furstenau civil rights weren't violated because he had his day in court and was found innocent. that fact is that joe has no idea what-so-ever was took place to get furstenau into court. none of us do.

Blake,

Use the search function in your browser in this page and you will see the various references to how the towing was ILLEGAL (a claim made by Michele B no less than 12 times in one of her postings.
(Posted by: Michele b | January 1, 2008 05:33 PM)

In there she also cuts/pastes the ordinance which I dissected for her shortly thereafter and copied the relevant ordinance about how disputes for towing are supposed to be resolved.. but yet I get called out for posting ordinances. Convenient set of blinders we seem to be wearing, no?

I never claimed to see Napergate man in Arizona. I only relayed what I heard from a neighbor who was around during that time, and it was clarified by HEL which I thanked her for. I asked her about another thing my neighbor mentioned and she confirmed it was correct.

Perhaps you are confusing June's twisting of the facts.

Also, please feel free to call out my 'disrespectful dissent' with actual postings. I like being called out, but support what you claim at least.

Have I ever called for anyone to be banned? Have I ever told others on this board who to pay attention to or who to ignore?

Whom have I called a name?

Joe,
I don't recall June and Maryann complaining about dissent. I think they are complaining about your credibility and clowning around on a serious site.

Did you read this part in June's blog:

ELVIS SIGHTHINGS!

"Look at what happened to Joe's credibility.. He believes in Elvis Sightings! He and his neighbor that is! People in Huntington Estates see the Napergate Man at the pool and walking his dog while Joe's latest Elvis sightings has the Napergate Man retired and living in Arizona. I am sorry but I can not help but laugh when I read Comical Joe's blogs...they seem hilarious. Who needs to watch Comedy Central with Joe bloggin with us?"

So try not to twist issues. Plus I recall June and other discussing Napergate style slates and elections. You and Taxpayer are the ones obssessed with the towing issue and just keep discussing it over and over and over again and repeating yourselves. Show me where they discussed "TOWING." I wish Taxpayer would just ignore you so we can move on to more interesting subjects such as the elections in 2009 and who is going to win. Thanks to Michele B. for taking us out of towing and into elections. Obviously she has generated new interest and reminded everyone that we have to continue knocking the Establishment Wall that Napergate Man loosened the foundation of.

In summary, we all like respectful dissent. But we want credible dissent and not sightings of Elvis!

Blake...

Maryann,

Forgive the personal question, but:

You seem to suffer from the problem of wanting to squelch anyone who disagrees with you and even call upon the moderator to silence them.

A while back, I thought you were complaining about City Council doing that very same thing and even were talking about supporting someone 'willing to stand up to the establishment' and who wasn't afraid to be a voice of dissent.

Do you only like dissent when it jives with your opinion?

Taxpayer –

I agree with you that DF did not file his lawsuit in the heat of the moment, but disagree on the steps he took leading up to the suit.

I think DF had to know that when he asked the council to discipline the NPD officers involved with the arrest that nothing would come of it. The police department has a union, an employment contract, and their own disciplinary system to work within and any council-directed discipline of the officers would have surely drawn the ire of the FOP.

Did DF also threaten his lawsuit at the time of the discipline request? If so, then any discipline or apology would have been tantamount to an admission and the NPD and city council would have been advised against such an action by any attorney unless DF signed a written settlement agreement to avoid a lawsuit.

After the NPD discipline was denied, DF’s request for money comes across more as extortion than a negotiation—even if the money was only for his supporters as he claimed.

I almost get the feeling that DF’s attorney put him up to the discipline and monetary request as preludes to the lawsuit. It looks like they were just done for show and were an effort to soften the anti-DF backlash that was sure to follow a sitting city councilman suing his own city.

As for the parking situation, I do not think that DF should have injected himself into the parking issue as he did-signs or not. DF is not in the NPD chain of command, he is on the city council. He should have called the chief or the watch commander and brought the issue to their attention. That would have been the most appropriate way to handle the situation.

There's been allot of discussion on the legality of the towing and, frankly, I don't care. The towing is legal unless the cop KNOWS it is not. Just as DF's arrest is legal unless the cop KNOWS it is not. You can be legally arrested and be innocent in many instances, such as mistaken identity or other misunderstanding. But this is a side issue since DF is alleging that he was arrested even though the cops KNEW he was innocent of the charge (based on exagerated or false evidence).

Maryann and June,

You both seem to think I am Mr. Establishment. Trust me, I am not. I would venture a guess that I am more Anti-Establishment than you are. In fact, I would put dollars to donuts on it. I even consider opposition groups to be an 'Establishment' because I do not like Group-Think mentality. What happens in those cases is that each individual's differences start to be eroded away and they start to conform to the new Group-Agenda. (The new opposition 'establishment').

Instead, I like to learn to work WITHIN the current system and that involves knowing exactly when and how to pick one's battles and knowing when to respect the establishment because if you can not do that, how does one expect anyone else to respect you when and if you yourself become the 'establishment'?

Let me give you an example of how we differ:

You seem to think that the time and place to challenge a tow is right there on the street. Just because you "feel" it was illegal does not make it so.

I, on the other hand, feel that the time and place to challenge that tow is through the established city process. At that point it has the chance to be determined that the tow is ILLEGAL and that ruling actually has LEGAL STANDING.

Your way accomplishes nothing, except to bring further charges upon the individual arguing with the police officer who is performing their duties. The police officer is not a judge. If you are respectful, they tend to listen and give latitude (just like any other human being). If you are a 'jerk' to them or rude... you've just sunk yourself. They don't have to give you any discretion at that point. The old saying: You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Cliff notes: Your way accomplishes nothing except a bigger waste of taxpayer money (at least $130,000 so far, right?)
My way: Vehicle owner gets their car back and city picks up the cost of the tow. (couple of hundred dollars tops for my one vehicle).

Who's way is more frugal for the taxpayer, your way or my way? Please answer that one simple question: Which way is cheaper for the taxpayer?

Maryann, Dor, Randy & Southwest,

Thanks for you comments.

As to your comments regarding Joe, I enjoy debating with him. His logical flaws expose the lunancy being spewed by many of the Furstenau detractors. Answering them head-on is the only way to put this thing to rest and to allow Furstenau to be recognized as a pro-Naperville, anti-establishment voice for the citizens.

you can find the council meeting on the city's website.

www.naperville.il.us

click on "media gallery" near the top

click on "wcnc streaming video" near the right side

you will see dec 18 council meeting

June

you think someone close to furstenau should have "calmed him down in the heat of the moment" so that he didn't sue after being acquitted? he waited 4 months afterwards before he did anything. doesn't sound like the heat of the moment to me. sounds like he thought through pretty thoroughly what he wanted to do. then he went to the council and asked to modestly discipline the officers in involved. (no lawsuit). then he sent a letter asking for an apology and a small amount of money to pay back his supporters for what he feels became a doomed election? still no suit. not until after all that did he even file, and it was 6 months after being acquitted. sounds to me like he was thinking rationally and trying fairly to get some small retribution without a suit. when the city told him to get screwed twice, then he sued. but don't worry, he isn't going to lose this case, and i think many people ie. councilman and mayor and police chief, margo will look silly when everything comes out.

SNT

it is the npd's responsibility, and their responsibility alone, to post signs. don't put it on furstenau that he should have realized signs weren't posted and should have called. that's bogus and you know it. he walked downtown from the city building so he probably wasn't paying any attention to posted signs meant for drivers. if he was driving, maybe he would have noticed. but it was the failure of the npd to post signs and their failure alone. there are 2 facts about that tow zone 1) when the council voted to enforce temporary no parking zones that day and tow, there were supposed to be signs posted early in the day (around dawn) 2) the signs were not posted by npd early, instead they posted them within minutes of when they started to tow. the reason everyone, not just furstenau, was complaining was because they had parked there legally just a short time earlier. and they were being towed. that is also a fact.

michele

everything you say makes sense. of course not everyone is going to agree with you, but don't respond to joe. pretend he doesn't exist. he isn't worth it. he wants all these documented facts when no one here has any. we are just going on what we believe and making a case for it. tb, southwest taxpayer, and others are able to disagree while at the same time, making some sense without twisting what you say. d.bone, on the other hand, is borderline. jk d. bone. sort of.

about your analysis of the council. i think every councilman is in trouble when i comes election time except furstenau. i think furstenau is in the strongest position. i think the burchard severance vote and the edward hospital vote will be damning to the rest of them. furstenau was the only one who sided with the residents next to the hospital and voted NO to allowing the hospital to build a 120ft high wall 30ft off their property line. krouse and furstenau were the only ones who voted NO to burchard's severance. i think votes like those 2 passionate ones solidify furstenau. the residents notice votes like that. there is also some passionate opposition to furstenau but those people can't cast a vote against him, and furstenau has enough support to win.

Maryann – regarding you 4:22 post yesterday (Jan. 2)

You wrote “You are being so "sensitive" to someone Anonymous?? How could Debbie hurt an anonynmous family....dah!!!”

The “anonymous” post was mine, but was done using my normal initials of T.B. The Sun has had some technical issues which cause some posts to show up as “Anonymous”. Perhaps Jim Lynch could fill you in on that?

Debbie was insensitive and insulting. How do you justify being more insulting to someone who posts as “anonymous”? Frankly, I fail to distinguish between an anonymous post and one using just initials (such as T.B.), one using just a first name (such as Debbie or Maryann), or one using a pseudonym (such as Taxpayer). They are all equally anonymous since readers do not know the writer’s full identity.

You then went on to say that “I have to agree with her [Debbie] that if someone lives in town and does not vote and participate in elections, they don't care which direction the town takes.”

This, too, is insulting. Just when did I discuss my voting history or election participation? In fact, since moving to Naperville in 2001 I have never missed an election, I have questioned candidates (including DF) regarding their positions, and I care deeply about the direction of the city.

You and Debbie made posts based on non-existent facts and choose to attack people who do not agree with you instead of giving a differing point of view an opportunity. Without comment on the merits of Joe’s posts, you obviously have an issue with what you perceive as his attacks yet fail to see when you and/or Debbie engage in the same sort of behavior.

I welcome to opportunity to discuss issues with you and others in this forum; however, I would ask that you refrain from posting based on fantasy and to please use at least a minimal level of respect with regard to others.

Michelle,
Your response to McFarland and Marshall was excellent.

But then you do the WRONG THING and disobey the advice of many and respond to JOE CLOWN! Please Michelle don't respond to him in the future. Please no one respond to him!

No one bloggin 2 months ago is still bloggin but Joe. He chased everyone away. He chased me off a few threads with his very hostile remarks. I even went to threads about construction that no one was bloggin on and guess who shows up...yes, Joe shows up to discuss even construction!

I just have this feeling that the Moderator thinks Joe is helping his blogging numbers. I think he is not! If we had all those bloggers from months ago still bloggin we would have 500 posts instead of 200 on this thread and competing with national blogs like Gretawire.com that do 400-800 posts. But all eventually wrote they could take no more of Joe and left. I guess everyone has a boiling point and in my opinion the Moderator is not helping. It is time to CENSURE Joe and see if we can straighten him out or lose him. He is a real bully..big time bully! I mean all this guy does is copy and paste ordinances. Is that what bloggin was suppose to be? If he is not copying and pasting he is looking for an argument? I guess it must be nice to be retired on Social Security and bloggin all day. What a life???

Regarding Michelle's Analysis.......

I don't know about this Rosonova guy. Something seems odd about him! I can not see how he is NEUTRAL.

From my analysis he went from Napergatian to Establishment to Brestalian. He did the complete FLIP FLOP!

I am sure this guy follows the money trial. When the Napergate guy was pumping him up with full page ads he was a Napergatian.

When Developer Attorney Brestal pumped his son with a good paying job he became a Brestalian.

During the transition he was an Establishment guy for a short while. Is this guy trying to be so obvious or does he think we are all BLIND? I hope Michelle's rumor that he will will not run, turns out to be true.

And Michelle you are catching on quickly with your use of the word "Establishment." That was how we described them in the 90s and I feel your use of the word again is very appropriate. There is no better word to describe those who want the Status Quo at all costs!

I am seeing a bond developing between the newcomers and the old timers on these blogs. This blog has been very educational and I never would have thought people could come together in such a way. It seems like we are all one big jury trying to reach a verdict. But we have one rebel, Joe, who will make sure we never get a unanimous verdict. Our only hope is the Judge throws him off the jury for causing so much chaos!

Michelle B.,
I like your analysis. But you are underestimating Mayor Pradel's power in regards to Wehrli. Even though Wehrli is an old timer with very powerful and influential family connections in Naperville, the establishment will never side with Wehrli over Pradel.

Mayor Pradel is a peace maker as you correctly indicated. The establishments wants him. 3 former Mayors could not make peace with the Napergate Man but Mayor Pradel succeeeded somehow! So they are never going to side with time bomb Wehrli, over level headed Mayor Pradel. The establishment wants peace and wants to be the no. 1 town in America ahead of Ft.Collins, Colorado.

Believe me they are so proud of the peace he made with the Napegate Man and his reference to DF as his child was no slip of the tongue and in no way an offensive remark. It was an OLIVE BRANCH! He wants peace with DF. Yes, maybe the establishment forced the Mayor into the scolding of DF! But as soon as the establishment made the scolding(censure), they probably told the Mayor it is your job now to pacify him and bring him back into the fold. You pacified the Napergate Guy, so do it one more time! And Mayor Pradel will!

The establishment will neutralize Wehrli immediately, if he tries to cause trouble for Mayor Pradel or steps on his toes. Mayor Pradel has proven himself over and over again and the establishment is not going to let anyone mess with him.

And he is also UNBEATABLE! Those are not my words. I remember the Napergate Man telling us in the mid 90s that Mayor Pradel is simply unbeatable and just to accept him as an eternal Mayor, kind of like the Pope! Since than he won 4 elections in landslides and he will win his 5th and 6th and 7th and MORE for as long as he lives. And I like the peace we have had and I am hoping this DF incident was just an aberration of sorts...but I really don't know.

Anyway if anyone thinks Furtenau or Wehrli, can beat Mayor Pradel for Mayor they are dreaming. Even if they get more votes while running for council, they could never beat out Pradel in a Mayoral race. The only reason Pradel ever gets less votes is because people feel he is an automatic shoe-in and don't bother to vote. If Mayor Pradel ever got in a tight race, he would get 20 or 25 thousands votes easily. Anyone else can be beaten, but not Mayor Pradel! Don't trust me...trust the Napergate Man on that one! I believe him!

Kevin,
Thank you for you kind response. Even before you wrote I mentioned that whatever you said I believed was unintentional. There is no doubt in my mind that you are a sincere person!

I erroneously attributed that quote of 3500 people flocking like sheep to support the Napergate Man to you since I had not seen it before.
That really angered me a touch! I wish you could have attributed that quote to its author so the heat would have not been leveled at you. But maybe you should have not repeated it even though I know you were well intentioned! It really attacks the 3500 resident voters who supported the Napergate Man more than the Napergate Man. I just don't think he was out trying to brainwash anyone and I don't think he ever tried or would have ever succeeded.

He knew he did not have a chance to have his word accepted over the city's so he spent years digging and digging data and facts. What people don't understand is this fella began fighting the city in the early 80s and his battles only became very public in the early 90s. He spent 20 years rallying and convincing people. He had no magical finger snapping abilities as some people are making it sound! He simply did not have the ability to part the Red Sea!

ESTABLISHMENT PARTY VS NAPERGATE PARTY.....

Really there was no flocking of any sheep. It was just a man full of energy who was patient and launched a battle of attrition against a very powerful City Hall and Council that at one time was 100% ESTABLISHMENT and had no OPPOSITION. Believe it or not we were a one party town before the Napergate Man changed the landscape just a bit! Now we have two unofficial parties: The Establishment Party and the Napergate Party. Maybe one day they will become official but right now the Establishment prefers the residents think there is only one party in Naperville and that is them.

If you are not sure what I mean, consider full time blogger, Joe. Joe is Mr. Establishment all the way. In his mind the city can do no wrong under any circumstance. The city is always right, according to Joe Establishment. This should be obvious to all. As Mr. Establishment he knows everything but never heard of the Napergate Party or Slate. I think he has heard but is in denial as all Establishment Party members are. They want a one party town. Only their party...the Establishment Party...no Napergate Party!

DF's battle will be much easier and shorter than the Napergate Man's battle because he broke some walls down for him that were worse than the Berlin Wall. But if DF tries to re-ignite the Napergate Party, I am sure the city will fight him tooth and nail. He will get a ticket every time he fails to put his turn signal on within 100 feet of an intersection. So please DF, put your turn signal on and assume they are out to get you and protect yourself unitl you get your slate in office. Never let your guard down!!!

DF can win his battle but he is somehow making some public relations mistakes. Trying to get campaign contributions back for his supporters is his biggest mistake. No one does those things. They donated money to him knowing he had been arrested falsely.....if I have my time lines straight. It just reminds me of someone going to the casino and wanting his money back when he loses.

DF has never been about money so wanting this campaign money back puzzles and baffles me. It is just not his character! Maybe his attorney is giving him bad advice...not sure!

I agree with Marshall, McFarland, Ameena, Marilyn and especially Michelle B. who seems to be pushing for a Napergate Style Slate to take the city in a better direction. But this slate will never succeed if the taxpayers perceive Dick as trying to increase their taxes.(By the way Michelle B. you remind me of the Napergate Man when you detailed a little information about each council member...he would start his education process early and keep going till election time...keep up the good work and keep educating us but always be factual. The minute you make an innocent mistake, the city sharks will make minced meat out of you...trust me on that one, girl! You want to check out your facts and document them. Always authenticate your sources.)

ELVIS SIGHTHINGS!

Look at what happened to Joe's credibility.. He believes in Elvis Sightings! He and his neighbor that is! People in Huntington Estates see the Napergate Man at the pool and walking his dog while Joe's latest Elvis sightings has the Napergate Man retired and living in Arizona. I am sorry but I can not help but laugh when I read Comical Joe's blogs...they seem hilarious. Who needs to watch Comedy Central with Joe bloggin with us?

On a more serious note, once DF won his misdemeanor case, as a good politician he should have began readying the new slate for 2009 instead of going to Federal Court. I can understand DF being very emotional but where are all his supporters to calm him down in the heat of the moment?

This is why I feel his support is lukewarm compared to the support the Napergate Man got. It seems like when he had his major victory he began focusing on the next election and the residents responded very well. DF needs to drop his lawsuit and follow the Napergate Man's style and focus on the next election.

Having said all this, I want it to be clear I am a supporter of DF and want more like him. I am just giving him my constructive criticism because I want him to succeed. Winning his case without video tape is almost impossible. And if he loses, he will be damaged politically and possibly done along with his potential slate and possibly put us back in the Dark Ages that preceded the Napergate Era.

Basically I don't like to see a successful man like DF go to the casino and lose all his winnings...he seems like he is heading down that path and I hope and wish he reverses course soon. If he does not and loses his court case, all the gains of the Napergate of which DF was a crucial part of, will be lost and we will be back to an "Establishment Town" all over again. It just frightens me to go back to an all Establishment Council just as it frightens the Establishment to go to an all DF(Napergate) Council. I hope DF takes some minor corrective actions for the sake of Naperville, all its taxpayers and his very numerous supporters!

Michele B.,
My point is easy to understand. Your assertion is that there were no temporary no parking signs posted that day. I have not found any information to confirm that, but for the sake of this argument, let's say that was true. Furstenau could have avoided the confrontation with the officer by being proactive when he did not see the temporary no parking signs posted on the street earlier in the day. He knew it was a temporary tow zone, so he should have notified the powers to be to let them know the signs were missing. To take it a step further, he should have told everyone at the Lantern that if they were parked on the street, or knew anyone parked on the street that they needed to move their cars because they would be getting ticketed or towed starting between 2pm and 4pm. That would have been looking out for the people by informing them of the situation. Instead he chose to argue with an officer of the law in the middle of doing his job to enforce the temporary parking regulation that Furstenau had voted to be in force that day. In my view, Furstenau should have defended the officer performing his duty, and apologized to the people involved. Furstenau was one of the decisionmakers who decided cars were to be removed from that street that day, not Officer Hull. Under the circumstances, I don't feel it is fair to blame Officer Hull, sign or no sign.

Michele,

Let me specifically address this one: "Why are you not bashing Hull & Chief Dial for forcing multiple citizens to incur the time and expense of procedurally challenging an illegal towing?"

You keep calling it an illegal tow but have never once shown it to be illegal. You have given your opinion, cited an ordinance; I have already responded with my opinion of it.. and that's what we have are OPINIONS.. yours and mine (and anyone else who has one about the situation).

What we are missing is a CHALLANGE to the tow that actually has it RULED as being ILLEGAL.

Is there one? Was there one? That is the only legal way to establish that it indeed was ILLEGAL and that those towed are owed their money back. If challenged and won, the CITY pays for the tow, the vehicle owner does not. If it's not contested, then when someone pays to get their cars back and if they file no appeal or contest to it, that is an admission by the vehicle owner that you agree that it was a legal tow.

Until then, it's just OPINION that has no legal standing.

So, again, I will ask: Did anyone who got towed actually challenge the tow and if so, did they win?

If they won, then I would change my OPINION to agree with thier finding that it was indeed an ILLEGAL TOW zone. Can you produce one instance where it was deemed illegal through the proper process and not just some blogger's OPINION ??

Final question: Why didn't DF inform the towed owners about this challenge process? I mean, come one. I keep hearing how he is out there fighting for the taxpayer. This is a very simple process and part of that 'evidence' could be him appearing or even giving a written statement clearly stating his opinion as a council person about why the tow zone was not valid... that would have weighed very heavily in favor of the vehicle owners I would imagine. Did it happen? If not, WHY NOT? I thought he was there for the people to stick up for them and help them through the city process and procedures as was mentioned by many in the Dec 18th Council meeting.

Was your car towed? If so, what did you do about it?

Michele,

You said: " I believe the spaces in question are marked "3 Hour Parking"."

If the spaces are 3 hour parking, then it's possible they overstayed their time limit by watching the entire bears game and they were towed for that reason irrespective of the temporary tow zone being established.

How long were they parked? Also, No one has yet to answer whether or not any of the tows were appealed via the process I posted earlier. Anyone?

With regards to 'justice'... I do not believe DF's 'Civil Rights Violation' lawsuit has merit. I've stated multiple times how he received due process and even he himself waived some civil rights in his case. That is different from the CONTEST process of an enforcement made by police. You do not interrupt the ENFORCEMENT. The time to settle that and straighten it all out is through the process that is established. There is a difference between the two. If you can not see that difference I will not sit here and waste my time trying to explain it to someone who does not want to learn.

And again, for Maryann... I am not a city employee or in any way being paid. This is my own time and desire to be involved. If you doubt me, let's have coffee or tea and we can go to the HR departments of the city and you can ask them if I am on any payroll. What day works for you? I find it amusing how some people were patting themselves on the back because they do RESEARCH yet you scratch your head how anyone can use a website to look up information about the city they live in. Are you for real? I'm the rookie here, remember?

Joe,

City Code clearly calls for posting of signs prior to towing. It's ludicrous to argue anything other than the City Council's intent behind the code is to provide for reasonable notice prior to towing. I believe the spaces in question are marked "3 Hour Parking". It would be patently unreasonable for the notice to be less than the amount of time "advertised" on the existing street signage. In fact, that would probably be some type of govenment "entrapment."

What's interesting here is that if you go to Court on the towing issue, you have to convince the judge that you were towed in a manner inconsistent with the intent of the City Code. In our case, you had an elected City Councilman telling the officer that he was not following the code or the intent of City Council. Why not just say that Hull was wrong?

You seem to have a real problem with Furstenau forcing the City into a Courtroom with all the inherent trouble and expense. But, then you reverse yourself and tell everyone this was illegally towed that they should just happily "go to court." I think you even printed the procedure. Why are you not bashing Hull & Chief Dial for forcing multiple citizens to incur the time and expense of procedurally challenging an illegal towing?

Why are you inconsistent in your recommendations for justice?

Marshall & McFarland,

I agree with you completely. I also believe Furstenau will support a slate of candidates for the 4 open positions that are up in approximately 1 1/2 years. Here's what I know of the candidates in the next election:

Jim Boyajian - rumor has it he will not run again. He'll be retiring in his home in florida. (Already lives there a good part of the year). This leave an open seat. Expect wherli & his "old-line" naperville friends to run Geff Roehll again. Roehll has plan commission experience. But, lost in the last election despite NatPac support. NatPac is the Naperville Chamber's Political Action Committee. Roehll was beat in 2007 by Senger, Furstenau, Wherli & Feisler. He's very beatable - he's used to getting beat.

John Rosonava - rumor has it he will not run again. If he does not cut his ties to Bill Brestal's firm. He will not win even if he does run. He's the least involved concilman and city staff claims he never reads the packets. Not sure who will run for this spot. Look for Patricia Meyer(sp) to run again. Not sure if she has the following but she was recently appointed to Naper Settlement board and is "doing her homework". She will not be supported by the "old boy" network because she's spoken out against several developments that Brestal has pushed through.

Ken Miller - will probably run again. Will probably have support of business groups, including NatPac. He's an "establishment guy." He's not unbeatable but will be hard to unseat.

Doug Krouse - will run again if he does not win his state election. (he's up against a strong candidate at the state level and not favored at this time). Has a loyal following and good name recognition Naperville. Will win council again assuming he runs.

====

The current "wild card" is whether Doug Krouse and or Darlene Senger win their state elections. If so, Mayor Pradel gets to appoint (with Council approval) their replacement. Doug only has a short term remaining, that spot is up for reelection in 1 1/2 years. Darlene has 3 1/2 years to go. Both Darlene and Krouse tend to vote with Furstenau. So, if either win here, there will be a "free shot" for the mayor. And, given the current politics, he is unlikely to listen to Furstenau. Not much to be done here. Just watch and plan afterwards.

=====

My predictions after Senger / Krouse 2008 State election: Neither wins state office. No change on City Council.

Furstenau Factor after 2008:

1) Wherli - Strong Anti Furstenau - will continue to try to discredit furstena
2) Boyajian - Anti Furstenau - but could come around. (open seat in 2009)
3) Miller - Anti Furstenau - but could come around (re-election 2009)
4) Rosanova - Neutral - will follow the majority. (open seat in 2009)
5) Mayor Pradel - Neutral - want's to make peace but will not fight wherli
6) Feisler - pro furstenau - looking for a peaceful solution. Will support Furstenau in future.
7) Krouse - pro furstenau - last to cave and vote for censure. Will support Furstenau in future.
8) Senger - pro furstenau - next to last to cave and vote for censure. Will support Furstenau in future.
9) Furstenau -

==============================
Why is the "establishment" coming out so hard against Furstenau now??

Currently 4 Pro Furstenau (no seats in play in 2009) / 3 anti furstena (2 seats in play durin 2009) / 2 neutral (1 seat in play in 2009)

With a coordinated push and a strong slate of candidates in 2009, Furstenau and his "anti-establishment" supporters could take over council. This is the "last gasp" of the old boy network that the Napergate Guy damaged in the 2000 elections. Watch for an all out war to maintain the old-boy influence in 2009.

If you follow this, you will truly understand the rationale behind the current political attacks on Furstenau. This is not conspiracy theory. Just good ole, Chicago style, slash and burn politics.

Can anyone give me a link so I can watch that famous City Council Meeting that I missed on the Internet?

I want to do a little catching up so I can keep up with the remaining bloggers.

Also, I am curious what the circulation of the Naperville Sun is now compared to the Napergate Era of the 90's. I guess there has been some debate that newspaper advertising is not effective as in the past when this Napergate Guy was pumping out ad after ad! I am one of those old timers who still reads newspapers, ads and clips coupons to save money! Can the moderator shed some light to circulation numbers as it relates to Napergate Era vs post Napergate Era?

Thanks to anyone that can help!! I really would like to know if I am the only one left standing that enjoys reading the newspaper and not mind getting a little ink on my fingers...

June,

Apparently my point was lost somehow...I said "you guys make it sound like he just snaps his fingers and 3500 (which was mentioned in one person's blog) people flock to the polls like sheep to do whatever this man asks of him..." I said "sound like" and not that people actually did follow him like sheep. It is my perception based on what I have read in these various blogs about the events and yes I was being a little sarcastic when I wrote that. It just seemed that way to me after reading the various blogs on the topic.

(From June's Last Blog) "I doubt that you intentionally intended to offend people of the 90s by implying they just flocked to join the Napergate Man based on full page ads. That was not the case! We were independent thinkers as people now are!!" I did not mean to offend anyone and if I did I can't control that just like people can't control other people's perception of what they read. My comments were based on my perception of what I read here on the blogs. I do believe that we live in a world today where everyone questions their leaders more than we have in the past and I think that is a good thing and it should not be seen as me insulting the people of that particular time period. I am not saying the people of that time period did not question their leaders, but I just see it more now than I did back then. I am sorry if it does insult you, but that is just my opinion.

(From June's Last Blog) "In summary please don't indirectly insult the people of the 90s as somehow not being as intelligent as those of today. They were equally intelligent!! They were not 3500 sheep! They were 3500 resident voters who went to the polls to support his Napergate Slate of 4 candidates because he convinced them he was telling the truth and city officials were not. And apparently 3500 can make a big difference since most races are decided by less then 3500 voters. We all know what the outcome of that race and I believe 4 of his candidates still our serving our great city and no one has destroyed any records since they have been in office. So he made a touch of difference to say the least in making our city better!" I don't believe I said that the people of the today (which sounds like it includes you) were more "intelligent" than the people of the 90's (which also includes you). I think you are taking that part of my blog and making something out of nothing. I guess that is just your perception of what I wrote which you are entitled too...interesting how perception works into this from your end.

June, we all have different opinions and we all are entitled to them. If people are easily offended by comments on a blog, than they need to developed a tougher skin. If I read my blog and read the comment about people being more independent thinkers now than they were ten years ago, I would not be offended by it...I would think this guy isn't talking about me as I was as much of an independent thinker then as I am today! I appreciate your comments, but really I was just stating my opinion and my perception on what I read. Since then I have been educated more on the topic of Napergate and I believe it was a good thing for the citizens of this city. I just wanted to hear all sides before making my judgment and by raising questions in my blogs I got the information I needed to make my judgment on the topic. I think we are on same page, but we are just looking at it from a different angle.

Take care,

Kevin

Southwest,

I thought you were complaining about Furstenau "Inserting" himself into the situation. (Maybe that was joe?) Anyway, now you say it would be ok if he had "inserted" himself earlier in the day and complained "properly" when he did or did not notice the temporary no parking signs.

I am troubled however that you continue to dodge the issue and make excuses for Hull. If Hull was towing without proper "temporary no parking signs" that are clearly required by the code, Hull was in the wrong. Furstenau got involved when he became aware of the illegal towing. Now, instead of acknowledging his right to become involved, you want to argue that he should have become involved earlier???

Not sure I follow your logic past the first do-loop.

Joe,
You are being so "sensitive" to someone Anonymous?? How could Debbie hurt an anonynmous family....dah!!!

I have to agree with her that if someone lives in town and does not vote and participate in elections, they don't care which direction the town takes.

There is nothing wrong with living to eat and party. However, some people eat to live and want to particpate in the future of their city.

You seem to live to blog. As some guy noted you blogged 60 or more times on 2 threads. I hope someone is paying you to blog.
Maybe the city is since you take the city side on all counts right or wrong! And when the city is wrong like in Napergate, you profess ignornace on that one topic while claiming to know everything about any other topic. Odd, I must say!

Like everyone esle, I have to wonder about you. I am just hoping you are not a paid city employee writing your nonsense on taxpayer time. I have never seen anyone who knows so many ordinances and where to find them. Just a little unusual!

Sandy,

Go re-read Anon's original post.

They said they married into a family that has been here 40+ years and they said that they themselves (the poster) had not heard of Napergate.

"I have been a Naperville resident for the past eight years and married into a family that has been in Naperville for 40+ years. I have never heard of this Napergate guy and I don't care what he thinks."

Debbie went on to slam his family based on something she misinterpreted from that statement.

...you guys make it sound like he just snaps his fingers and 3500 (which was mentioned in one person's blog) people flock to the polls like sheep to do whatever this man asks of him...I would hope the people of this fine city would stop to actually form an opinion of their own before just doing what they are told by this Napergate Man. I don't doubt he had a lot of influence during that time as I read people talking about him with a lot of admiration on these blogs. I respect that and it sounds like he did some great work for the average citizen, but my point is that I think we live in a different world today and we have a lot more independent thinkers out there who question everything they read or hear more than they did even 10+ years ago.

The point I am trying to make here is don't be so sure that people today just do whatever they are told or believe whatever they read in a full page ad. If I agree with what the information is saying, than I would follow that cause, but I just don't do what anyone says because they ask me to do it even if I have agreed with them in the past. Just my two cents...(Quotes from blogger Kevin)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Kevin,
I doubt that you intentionally intended to offend people of the 90s by implying they just flocked to join the Napergate Man based on full page ads. That was not the case! We were independent thinkers as people now are!!

In those days the city would allege he was the worse retailer as far as liquor sales to minors. He would publish full page ads showing 200 minors' IDs confiscated each documented with a Naperville Police Report number. He would subpoena records from the city showing that the other 100 retailers combined only had 50 or 60 IDs all together.

The facts just did not add up for the city and he somehow proved they were not being TRUTHFUL. Then he takes a full page ad and publishes a picture of his trophy he won in a National Competition for the most responsible drinking campaign in the nation.

In the end the residents had a choice to believe the facts and accomplishments in his ads... Or the city innuendas and heresay that ended up not to be truthful!

So the residents did think, analyze data like a jury would have and concluded the Napergate Man was credible and the city was not being TRUTHFUL! And in the end the courts concurred that the city was in fact not TRUTHFUL!

In conclusion and since this is about DF and not the Napergate Man, let us not assume the city is not lying about DF. We don't know, yet! We may never know! But one thing we know from the Napergate Era is the city is capable of lying and then destroying the records when caught. That really is based on FACTUAL HISTORY that is documented in Sun archives, library microfilm and County Court Records!

In summary please don't indirectly insult the people of the 90s as somehow not being as intelligent as those of today. They were equally intelligent!! They were not 3500 sheep! They were 3500 resident voters who went to the polls to support his Napergate Slate of 4 candidates because he convinced them he was telling the truth and city officials were not. And apparently 3500 can make a big difference since most races are decided by less then 3500 voters. We all know what the outcome of that race and I believe 4 of his candidates still our serving our great city and no one has destroyed any records since they have been in office. So he made a touch of difference to say the least in making our city better!

Kevin

Regarding Debbie's post,

If your family has been living in Naperville for 40 years and never heard of NAPERGATE here are some thoughts.

1. Your family is not politcally invovled.
2. Your family does not subscribe to the Naperville Sun.
3. Your family does not subscribe to the Daily Herad that also covered the Napergate Man and ran some Napergate Ads.
4. Your family does not read the Chicago Tribune which also covered the Naperville Man.
5. Your family does not read famous Tribune columnist Eric Zorn who joined the Napergate Parade with special columns supporting him.(try e-mailing him and ask him)
6. Your family did not attend any election forums in the 90s or early 2000s held in Naperville
7. Your family does not vote.
8. Your family does not care about the future of Naperville.
9. Your family is not internet savy and never checked Napergate.com
10.Your family does not care about Liquor Enforcement.
11.Your family does not watch the national news which ran a feature on the Napergate Man in Las Vegas when he won the award for the most "Responsible Drinking Campaign in the USA."
12.You family does not even care to read the front page of a newspaper if they bump into it accidentally in a Jewel or 7-Eleven.

*****************************************************************
For those who attacked Debbie, I have a few words, especailly for those who say they were politically involved at the time and never heard of Napergate or the man behind it.

1. Your are either lying and were not politically involved.
2. Your are not lying and simply developed Alzheimer's diseaste.

If someone came to me in Decemeber 2017 and told me I was very politcally involved in December 2007, but can not remember DF I would say....

1. Your are either lying and were not politically involved.
2. Your are not lying and simply developed Alzheimer's diseaste.

A decade ago the Napergate Man was getting as much publicity as DF and topped it with 100 full page ads with a catchy title. He was in the news for over a decade and thru 3 elections. YES, I recall Eric Zorn finally coming out and supporting him.

Likewise if someone said they lived in Naperville 2 decades ago, and said they never heard of Jenanine Nicarico, I would say:

1. Your are either lying.
2. Your are not lying and simply developed Alzheimer's diseaste.

I am not trying to offend anyone. But there are some things that you have to remember if you were living and involved in a certain place at a certain time. If you don't you may have some minor memory loss at the mininum!

Joe I'm curious where you work where you can spend all day and night trolling these blogs? Between this and the other Furstenau interview post you've made SIXTY COMMENTS. Think you can get me a job there?

I find myself agreeing with the people who are saying to give Furstenau, Officer Hull, and everyone else involved a polygraph test. It could be administered by a third party such as The Sun, and while the results aren't admissible in court, it would do leaks and bounds for the public appeal of the case. A quick Google search reveals that we wouldn't even need to go outside of the city boundaries. On a case as high-profile as this it wouldn't surprise me if they were even willing to administer the test pro-bono!

Trotsky Investigative Polygraph
(630) 355-5115
1783 S Washington St, Naperville, IL 60565

SNT,
I think you are lumping everything and everyone together and missing the ongoing debate.

I agree with you that Taxpayer and Michelle B are over emotional in support of Furstenau and have some fantasy dreams that just can not occur as they state...not in a million years.

The others who support Furstenau from the old Napergate Days have more realistic expectations and know what it would take to accomplish dreams as they have apparently experienced it in the past.

I can't remember who is who anymore but some of these people you refer to as "Napergatians" are trying to wake up Michelle B. and Furstenau by informing them you need a slate of candidates to bring any change to Naperville or the direction city staff would be taking.

So I think it is a mistake to lump all together. No one is tarnishing the Napergate Man's name. I think he is just being used as an example as to what needs to be done to bring about change.

He just showed everyone you need to run a slate of candidates and not push for one to be a dictator. Naperville is not a dictatorship that can be run by one Mayor or one popular coucilman. It is a democracy run by 9 city council members elected by the voters in a fair election.

Why is that so hard for people to grasp? A little liquor store owner grasped that concept early on and ran with it. When are the bloggers on this site going to grasp this simple and very basic concept?

Emotions from both sides will not solve the case. Theories and speculation from both sides will not solve the case.

Fursenau is gambling in court. If he wins he will come out much more powerful. If he loses he will be fried and done!

If I were him, I would follow the Napergate Mam's philosophy and get a slate of candidates ready for the next election instead of wasting time in court and upsetting taxpayers.

I believe DF does not have to run in the next election. But 4 council seats will be up for grabs in about a year. If he can get some of his neighbors, friends, relatives, wife, or Napergatians in those seats, he will control the town. Is that such a hard concept for anyone to understand? And that really is the relavance of the Napergate Man that so many are confused about!!! HE NEEDS A SLATE!!!

I'm in an overly generous mood today. Since we are now hopefully moving beyond the rhetoric and are getting into the real meat of the issue:

Did any of the people towed follow the POST-TOW hearing procedure?

*THIS* is how you deal with solving towing disputes. You do not do it while arguing on the street with a police officer performing their duties.

DF is on Council, DF should know this procedure. If he knows the law then why was this not followed?

It is outlined here: http://www.sterlingcodifiers.com/IL/Naperville/14005002000009000.htm

11-5B-9: POST-TOW HEARINGS PROCEDURES:

1.Opportunity For Hearing: The owner of a vehicle towed as an immediate tow, by or pursuant to the authority of the Police Department as set forth herein, shall be provided the opportunity for a post-tow hearing to determine the validity of such tow and any towing or storage charges. The hearing will not be determinative of, or adjudicate, any citation issued relative to any towed vehicle.

2.Appointment Of Hearing Officer And Nature Of The Hearing: The nature of the hearing and the appointment of the Hearing Officer shall be the same as set forth above in Section 11-5B-7 of this Article.

3.Conduct Of Post-Tow Hearings: The Hearing Officer shall review all evidence presented by the vehicle owner and the Police Department or other Municipal employees, and shall make a finding in writing based upon the preponderance of the evidence presented, as to the lawful authority for the towing and storage of the vehicle.

4.Post-Tow Hearing Decision: For each hearing, the Hearing Officer shall complete a post-tow hearing decision and attach such decision to the Police Department's original vehicle towing report, and supply a copy of the decision to the owner by personal delivery if the owner is present, otherwise by mail within seven (7) days of the hearing.

5.Decision To Tow Justified: If the preponderance of the evidence supports towing and compliance with the provisions of this Article, the Hearing Officer shall direct that the tow was justified and towing and storage costs be imposed upon the owner thereof. The fees to be charged for towing and storage services shall be no more than the rates set out in the Rotation Tow List Article, Section 11-5A-1 et seq., of this Chapter, a schedule of which is attached to the findings of the Hearing Officer.

6.Decision To Tow Unjustified: If the preponderance of the evidence fails to support towing of the vehicle then the Hearing Officer may find the City responsible for towing and storage fees.

7.Reports And Documents To Be Retained; Contesting Decisions: All originals or copies of the notices, post-tow hearing decisions, towing reports, and any associated police reports or documents shall be retained by the Police Department for a period of at least five (5) years after each hearing, or after each tow if no hearing was requested or held. The Municipality or the owner may contest the decision of the Hearing Officer in any manner provided by law. (Ord. 89-178, 9-5-1989)

Again, did anyone who got towed go through this procedure and have it ruled that it was an un-justified tow?

Taxpayer,

I am twisting nothing.

Others, however, are doing what is often complained about: Activist Judging.

They are interpreting the law to say something it does not say.

That ordinance does not say anywhere about 'Timely manner' like you claim.

Even if it did, it also does state: "..he shall authorize the placement of temporary "No Parking" signs or notice of the suspension of the existing parking regulation(s) shall be posted."

Let's assume TIMELY is implied though (just to help you out. It's not, but I'll take your side here for a moment).

In another blog I showed you city literature and other related postings that stated 2 weeks in advance that the downtown streets would become temporary tow zones and that enforcement would start between 2-4PM on that day, January 1, 2006

2 weeks is more TIMELY NOTICE than THAT MORNING like you are complaining about. Notice was posted in various places in a TIMELY MANNER. I would even venture a guess it was posted in the newspapers... the very same ones everyone reads with baited breath awaiting for triumphant return of the Napergate Man.

The towing was LEGAL unless someone actually challenged it and it was ruled ILLEGAL. I've asked over and over it anyone did and if so, what the result was? Absent of any claim to the contrary, it can only be assumed it was LEGAL regardless of what your PERSONAL OPINION may be.

As for the police being 'jerks'. I would agree with you if it was SAFE to have patrons remove their cars. Being that they just came out of a bar in downtown Naperville, and everyone seems to be complaining about the evil bar owners enabling patrons to over drink, resulting in DUIs... I would venture a guess that perhaps the officer made the proper call to keep the vehicles under control of people who had not been in a bar just prior to remove the vehicles from the zones. If there were crowds of people, the officers have an obligation to ensure that the vehicles are removed SAFELY so as to not endanger the rest of the public that was down there for the parade (the public that somehow knew to park elsewhere even without seeing the signs downtown (See prior verbiage about 'notice')).

well, since taxpayer and michele b are in agreement with each other, that THEY are logical in their thinking and seem to posses superior logical operation. i would ask them to use some modus pones, or modus ponus, if you will. when they make their assumptions. let's look at what we have so far...

(1) if A then B
(2) A
(3) therefore, B

(1) we could phrase this as, if DICK is accused of various infractions by the police, the city manager, many city employee's, several council members, the city attorney. then he should be reprimanded, censured, fined, sued, thrown out of town, etc...

(2) DICK IS accused of various infractions by ALL of the above.

(3) he should be thrown out of town.

Michele B, taxpayer, and Napergatians,

Good thing dreaming is free. Knock yourselves out. The problem with dreams of conspiracy, persecution, and perceived civil rights violations to make political points, and placed in the court system wastes the courts time, people's time, and the taxpayer's money. I know the court system does not look kindly upon this type of abuse. It's time for you and Furstenau to all wake up from your sleepy dreams. Why do you continue to try to sell this fantasy world to the gullible on this blog? You should be spending your time encouraging your great master Furstenau to come to his senses, and drop his petty, politically retaliatory lawsuit. You're giving the Napergate guy a bad name.

michele

don't let joe fool you or twist things around as usual. the same city ordinance he quotes all the time states that the signs must be posted in a timely manner. a timely manner, as defined by the code is early in the morning the day the tow zone will be inforced. it is something to the effect of: by 5 or 6 am. that is what constitutes a timely fashion, not 25-20 minutes ahead of time.

at any rate, even if the towing was lawful, this still goes to the whole point many people have tried to make on this blog that joe doesn't understand: that is there is a difference between enforcing the law and being a jerk. this is one of those situations where the npd, even if it was within its right to tow with only 15 min notice, had an opportunity to be nice or be jerks, and they chose to be jerks. they could have allowed people time to move their cars but they didn't. they closed the street and started towing even though people who parked there as little as 20-30 minutes earlier had done so legally.

either way, 15-20 min notice isn't sufficient notice in a timely manner. look for yourself as to what the city code calls for. the code furstenau "adopted", as another blogger put it, called for the sings to be posted early that morning and they weren't. the npd failed to post them, then posted them within minutes before they started towing. furstenau was just trying to stand up for the citizens who were upset about being screwed by the npd.

To Everyone who has a beef with me,

Being in the spirit of the New Year, I'd like to offer an olive branch.

First let me state that I admire your loyalty towards a certain councilman. Loyalty, however, does not mean that they can do no wrong. I admired him prior to this lawsuit... I really did. He was a boat rocker and I *REALLY* likes that about him (Gee, can you guess why?).

I think he happens to be wrong in this instance and is possibly receiving bad advice on HOW to go about resolving this situation.

If I were him and wanted a shoo-in for Mayor, I would own up to my personal responsibility in it.

"My fellow citizens, I realize now that I should not have interfered with the duties of a police officer and conducted myself in the way that I did on January 1, 2006. I am sorry and I apologize to the Citizens of this great city. With that reconciliation I am also dropping my lawsuit because it seems to be ripping apart the city I love so dear and try to hard to do the best for. Please forgive me. I am turning over a new leaf in life and that includes to be more open to criticism the way I like to criticize the status-quo. I need to be able to take it as much as I give it. Let us move forward as a city TOGETHER to continue to make Naperville a place we are all proud to call home."

You know what? I will go out of my way to make sure people vote for him if he does something along those lines.

*THAT* will earn my respect back for him and you can't NOT respect a man for doing such a thing.

Randy - post the same (corrected?) stuff time and again. It still doesn't change mind mind since you're offering opinion instead of facts. You're entitlted to your opinion, but that doesn' mean I have to agree with you.

Debbie - your post is insulting to anyone who does not agree with you or does not recall the facts surrounding something that may have been important to you but not others at the time. Not recalling the facts surroundig the Napergate man does not mean someone "does not care about the future of Naperville".

Also, your post of "Your posting 'Anonymous' is a clue you did not want you and your family to be embarrassed" only indicates you have not been following the Sun's blogs and that random posts have shown up as "Anonymous" even if they were sent with a name attached. One could easily conclude that since you did not include your last name, you are also posting 'anonymously' so your family is also not embarrassed.

Ameena,

Point conceded on the year. I read from the budget on page 10/11 where it said FY08 and mistakenly forgot that property taxes are done in arrears. Still, according to the book, that rate is the lowest in 30 years, correct?

Please post your math on how to calculate the exact dollar amount of your taxes that go into the general fund (108 mil according to the budget) go towards police overtime. I stand by my math formula until you can put forth a more complete one to calculate each tax payer's dollar amount.

Have a blessed and powerful new year.

Michele,

Council determined the zones were to be established by order of an ordinance. The Chief of Police did not.

This section states:

"2.Whenever the chief of police, with the advice and consent of the director of the department of public works, determines that....

Council, on Dec 6, 2005 passed Ordinance 05-241 which established those zones.

Even if we say it's applicable, it gives no TIMEFRAME for how much earlier the signs need to be posted.

As was posted by someone who may have been an eye witness:

"the signs were then posted later in the afternoon while many people were inside watching the game. then 15-20 minutes after the sings were posted, the towing started, and people came outside to find their cars gone or in the process of being towed."
Tom W -- Dec 17, 2:13 AM
found here: http://blogs.suburbanchicagonews.com/newsblog/2007/12/furstenau_names_new_defendants.html#comments

So, from what I can see, either BY ORDINANCE making that section moot, or the fact that someone did say signs WERE POSTED at some point prior to the towing (regardless if people were inside watching the game or not), the towing was LAWFUL

Again, this is why I believe it was lawful, using the city code you did cite and explaining exactly HOW and WHY it was either fulfilled or not relevant. Either way (by ordinance or the fact that signs did indeed precede the tow), it's lawful.

hey michele b.

i agree with a lot of your post. here are a few more predictions for you.

1) whether or not furstenau decides to continue his political career, margo ely will lose her job after furstenau wins this case, and she will lose it for a couple of reasons. first, the incredibly bad advice she has given to the city during this entire ordeal. for example, giving initial estimates of 200k and 400k as the price for defending the lawsuit, only to later hear from the city's own attorney that it will cost upwards of a million. this whole thing has displayed her total lack of ability, including taking part in the public letter writing against furstenau instead of telling every city employee to shut up. second, this lawsuit will show her in a very bad light doing things that are unethical and illegal for an attorney to do. she will lose her job when the truth of everything she has done comes out. in my opinion, peter b. has used her to do some of his dirty work and she will pay for it.

2)police chief david dial will also lose his job or be forced to resign when the truth of the things that took place during furstenau's prosecution comes out. hull and cross may likely lose their jobs as well. i predict that each of them or, at least dial, may face felony charges for engaging in activities that were illegal in their attempt to falsely charge and jail furstenau. i believe hull was only doing what dial told him to do all along. that is my guess as to why he didn't file anything the day the incident took place, but instead filed something 5 days later after his superiors told him to.

3) peter b. may end up back in court or possibly facing charges when it is discovered in court that he and the npd were in on this whole thing together. he was aware of the bogus investigation and supported the npd and did nothing to stop it. he might have even broken a law or two while attempting to help them. his letter will hold the city legally liable for much of this and will come back to bite him in the end, as it will be a major piece of helping furstenau make his case.

4) in regards to burchard's letter, i think it will be a very damning document to the city's case because they will find that peter didn't just wake up one day and decide to write this on his own. as furstenau's attorney stated, i think burchard had help from some others, perhaps councilman, or the mayer, and if they are able to prove it, it will destroy any chances the city has to win. just as his attorney stated the burchard letter was released to the public, then less than 48 hours later, pradel was proposing a motion to censure furstenau with no prior discussion about it in executive session. it all appears to orchestrated and coordinated to me.

sound crazy to you? sounds a little crazy to me, but i think more of this is likely to happen than most people believe.

10) Final Conclusions & Predictions - Furstenau will win his Federal Lawsuit. He will gain political clout and influence upcoming elections. He will influence the hiring of the new City Manager. The new City Manager will listen to Furstenau and will eventually clean house - getting rid of Chief Dial, City Attorney Margo Ely and other senior city staffers that have taken a public stance against Furstenau. The next mayorial election, Furstenau will have a good shot at Mayor.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Michele B.
Most of what you said makes sense. But he, DF, will not have any influence as far as the City Manager, Chief Dial, the City Attorney, just by winning the next election with a landslide vote or even becoming Mayor.

He needs to get some sort of a movement going like the Napergate Man did and get at least 4 other council members elected to see eye to eye with him. He needs a slate of 5 candidates including himself to have this influence you would like him to have.

I think he would like to do all the things you are saying. It all makes sense. But the only way he can get anything done is set up a party and run a slate of candidates as the Napergate Man did and hope people vote the whole slate in together. He is going to have to spend some serious money in advertising and get himself an articulate writer for all this to happen.

I believe he knows what it takes to run a slate. He was part of the Napergate Slate at least twice. He has to have the experience and knowledge from the Napergate Era. Maybe he is just waiting for election time to start promoting his 5 team Furstenau Slate.

The major point you missed, Michelle, is you need 5 Council Members to make a a difference. One will not make a difference even if it is the Mayor. With 8 council members against Mayor Furstenau, he will be a lame duck Mayor not only for his last year, but from the first day he is in office.

I hope I am able to convey to you and others what it would take to control the management of the city thru policy. As others have stated, if he wins his litigation, donates his jury award to the city budget to help reduce our taxes, and runs a Napergate Style Slate of candidates, he can successfully effect all the changes you are recommending or predicting. It is not easy! It is not cheap! But almost anyone can do it with persistance and dedication if a little liquor store owner can do it!

And he can not get rid of Chief Dial and Attorney Margo Ely for no reason. That would be political retaliation and get us more lawsuits. However, he can ask them to take the city in a new direction with the support of 4 other council memebers and if they choose to disobey the new council, he could terminate their employment at that point with a council vote of 5 or more.

So it is never as simple as your post stated, but it is possible if all the ducks line up....yes all the DUCKS MUST BE ALIGNED or nothing happens!

Cindy,

First, I lived in Naperville from 1985 to 1999 and then back again in 2007. I lived in Aurora and I got the Naperville Sun delivered to me while living there. While in Aurora I stayed involved in Naperville with various volunteer organizations and I still do today. So I have lived in this area and I have been active in Naperville for a long time. I'm not a new comer to this town like you refer too in your blog.

My question to you is why is it such a problem to think that there are people who live in Naperville that don't care about this Napergate issue or even know who the man was or is? Why can't you realize that there are many different opinions regarding Napergate and one side of this discussion is people who don't care about what happened over 10 years ago? I do appreciate your passion for this topic, it is nice to see someone care so much. Honestly, like I said in my last blog...I think the Napergate issue is a great example of someone rallying people to a specific cause and one that people can learn from...I am just throwing out there that there might be people in this town that don't care about this topic and at the time I was one of them...I bet I was not alone. It doesn't mean they are bad people, it just means that it was not important to them at the time...and that is ok.

Also in your last blog you start in about DF, to be fair, I was not talking about DF in any of my blogs concerning the Napergate Man. All I was commenting on was the Napergate Man and the possibility that people in this town might not know or care about him or his issues. BTW, all caps can mean you are yelling too...this is something I learned in the business world when they went over email etiquette at one of my jobs. Some people might take you writing in all caps as you yelling at them...just something to think about as things tend to have more than one meaning.

Lastly, you seem to be very passionate about the happenings in Naperville. I think Naperville needs someone like you to represent them on city council. Have you considered running for office? I would support you!

Good Luck,

Kevin

Michele B.,
In the interest of time, I will address just one of your points at this time. More later.

From previous blogs, apparently Furstenau walked from his parking space at the Municipal Center on his way to the Lantern that day. If, as you assert, there were no signs up to indicate the parking ban, why didn't Furstenau contact the Police Chief, or Supervisor on duty to inform them of the problem? He was aware of the fact (or should have known, as he voted for it) that City Council passed an ordinance to make it temporarily illegal to park in downtown Naperville, and towing would begin at 2:00 pm to enforce the parking ban that day. I wasn't there, but the parking ban had been widely promoted due to the parade. If Furstenau was really looking out for the people, why wasn't he more proactive about it? I find it hard to believe signs weren't posted before the ticketing/towing began that day, but if your assertion is correct why didn't Furstenau do something about it before the need for a confrontation with a police officer on duty performing his duties to enforce the code that Furstenau helped adopt?

Joe,
Your neighbor has half a clue. I have to be honest and admit I was one of those ones who only got deeply involved late in the battle with the Napergate Man when he started saving our local subdivisions from commercial encroachment so really don't know the whole history.

But I do recall vividly when we had our meetings that a young lady brought about 10 people from Wheatland Township. This lady was given the Napergate ad to post and she is the one that set up the Web Site. No one else we knew in the 90's had the knowledge to set up a Web Site but her.

My recollection is that she had some issues with Wheatland Township and also the City of Naperville. I don't know if she worked for the Township. But she did bring her group to support us in the Spring Green battle before the city council....each and every time!

I am just beginning to realize how the memory fades. But maybe Ameena can check old ads in the library. I just don't go to libraries. I think he gave her issues with Wheatland Township plugs in his Napergate ads and I am sure he would have thanked her for establishing Napergate.com in his newspaper ads.

As far as which organizations the Napergate Man was in I have no clue. I don't think he is a politcal guy. I just think he was fighting city hall and people joined him to be part of the fight.
You can say the Napergate Party or Napergatians was just a spontaneous reaction that was NOT planned. It just happened! That is how I recall it.

As you say Joe, good information is hard to come by. But I am pretty certain your neighbor is right about someone in Wheatland Township(official or resident) being responsible for Napergate.com and running it for the Napergate Man. I am very vague but sure of the Wheatland Township connection in whatever form that may be!

michele b. toklas. i cannot even fathom what it is like in your mind. you are unreal. what in the world has brought you to this ? how can someone other than DICK or his family care so much about this inane subject ? i have to go now, because i have a real life to live. by the way, you are wrong on all of your points, numbers 1 through 6 and then also, 1 through 10.

Joe, Rainmain, Southwest -

The Naperville Code is actually quite clear on the proper procedure for "temporary no-parking zones." And, Joe, it is the Chief of Police that is responsible for placing temporary signs.

Please notice that under the code NO-PARKING SIGNS ARE REQUIRED. WITHOUT A SIGN, PARKING IS NOT ILLEGAL.

Joe, read slowly here, there a couple of logical connections and you do not seem to follow logic very well.

1) If signs were not posted, Hull was violating the law. He was illegally towing/ticketing cars. Hull was told by Furstenau (who clearly knows the code) that he was illegally towing cars, but instead of listening to Furstenau, he played the "I'M THE LAW" card and continued towing. He could have easily yielded, but chose to continue in illegal towing. He could have easily put towing on hold, and checked with his superiors, be he kept towing.

2) Any Citizen (including Furstenau) has the right to protest, complain, argue and even refuse to comply with a police officer that is engaged in illegal activity.

3) Many people have come forward to complain that signs were not posted when people parked. (remember, no sign = parking not illegal)

4) Chief Dial could easily investigate this issue. He has records of all towed & ticketed cars for that day. Dial has never investigated.

5) Several days after the initial incedent (apparently after he spoke to his superiors) Hull files a felony charge against Furstenau. Dial never investigated the illegal towing issue.

6) With 30 days after charges were filed a against Furstenau, Chief Dial knew he did not have a case. But, Dial refused to drop the prosecution and stretched a "loser" case against furstenau out through two elections.

My Conclusions:

1) Hull was acting illegally.
2) Furstenau was within his rights to complain.
3) Chief Dial is responsible for the illegal towing, and responsible for refusing to investigate this illegal activity.
4) Instead of investigating illegal towing and correct the mistake, Dial & Hull decide to "go after" Furstenau with bogus felony charges, against a long time political enemy.
5) Furstenau wins against the criminal case.
6) Furstenau asks City Manager Peter Burchard to instruct Dial to investigate the issue. Burchard flatly refuses.
7) Furstenau sends official demand letter to City Manager Burchard asking for legals fees and damanges. Burchard flatly refuses.
8) Furstenau files federal lawsuit against NPD to force the investigation of the issue. Burchard launches damaging smear letter agains Furstenau and orchestrates a censure of Furstenau on 3 to 5 year old staff complaints.
9) Furstenau names Burchard and other city officials to his Federal lawsuit.
10) Final Conclusions & Predictions - Furstenau will win his Federal Lawsuit. He will gain political clout and influence upcoming elections. He will influence the hiring of the new City Manager. The new City Manager will listen to Furstenau and will eventually clean house - getting rid of Chief Dial, City Attorney Margo Ely and other senior city staffers that have taken a public stance against Furstenau. The next mayorial election, Furstenau will have a good shot at Mayor.

ANYWAY - HERE'S THE CODE REFERENCE FOR THE ILLEGAL TOWING ACTIVITY THAT STARTED THIS ENTIRE DRAMA.

NAPERVILLE MUNICIPAL CODE 11-2A-20: TEMPORARY PARKING REGULATIONS:

1.For the purposes of this section, "temporary" shall mean a period of time of fourteen (14) days or less.

2.Whenever the chief of police, with the advice and consent of the director of the department of public works, determines that due to a special condition or event that the customary parking of motor vehicles or the enforcement of existing parking regulations may create a temporary hazard, he shall authorize the placement of temporary "No Parking" signs or notice of the suspension of the existing parking regulation(s) shall be posted.

3.It shall be unlawful to park any motor vehicle in violation of a temporary "No Parking" order, provided a sign is posted; and it shall not be unlawful to park any motor vehicle in violation of an existing parking regulation which has been temporarily suspended in accordance with this section. (Ord. 98-87, 6-16-1998; amd. Ord. 00-127, 7-18-2000)

http://www.sterlingcodifiers.com/IL/Naperville/14002001000020000.htm

Joe,
I am not going to sue you. But you seem to be off by 2 years(not one) and thus none of your calculations made any sense.

Since we don't know yet if there will be an increase from 2006 to 2008, we may have both a RATE increase and a REAL DOLLAR increase....and not a reduction!

I suspect we will if the Assessor devalues the value of our homes since prices have gone down in the last year according to all realtors I have spoken to.

It just shows you can put anyone under the microsope and call him out as you so like doing. What goes around comes around! If people check on you as I have been they would realize that your credibility is near 0 on these blogs. I hope it is better in your REAL LIFE!

You more than misquoted a year. You provided a nonsense analysis in an attempt to try to substantiate that police overtime is insignificant.

It may very well be significant and we will see the effect on our real estate tax bills soon!

Kevin,
No one ever said the Napergate Man just snaps his fingers and people flock.

The Napergate Man ran over a 100 full page ads to establish his positions in more than one newspaper. He attended the political forums at the time. He spoke before the city council. He had many court battles. The 3500 hundred people that came to his support just did not come easily. He actually had a petition in his store that people signed to join or support his movement. I believe the exact number may have been 3340 or 3380 when he had to cut it off so he can introduce it as a Court Record somewhere. It was posted by the Moderator in an earlier thread from Sun newspaper records. His supporters signed the petition knowing it was going to be part of a court record and it was.

As far as more independent thinkers now as opposed to 10 years ago, I find your statement without support. That time also had many independent thinkers. If they were not they would not have switched their support from City Hall to the Napergate Man. Rememeber he got 4 council members elected in one election. There were only 4 running in that election as only 4 run in each election.

So that is a remarkable feat for a formerly unknown retail store owner. It shows he was very effective. Anyone who can be that effective in the past can be effective in the present or future. As many bloggers noted he had a site named Napergate.com that he promoted in his newspaper ads. He even promoted a phone number and e-mail for tips from the likes of disgruntled city employees and others! I think his methods of the past are not yet obsolete, Kevin! Unless you can think of some newer technology the rest of us don't know about yet!

I think what is exciting about this DF case to many, is so many people what to see if DF can make his case as the Napergate Man did and turn the tide in his favor.

In general people have an admiration for the underdog whether it is sport or politics. The Napergate Man was a massive UNDERDOG!
DF is not nearly the underdog the Napergate Man was but he is an underdog.

The case around DF centers around him being a bully. If he was such a bully it is odd that not one person who is making these wild allegations can produce one single video or audio tape of his bully behavior. Not one! Lot of cameras exist in the city both fixed and mobile. Where is one iota of evidence?

This reminds me of the Napergate Case because the city bad mouthed him over and over again hoping residents would believe a lie repeated often. Maybe City Officials are hoping if they keep saying DF is a bully, people will believe them! I know the Napergate Man had lots of video to help his case. I wish DF had video but it appears the city has no video either. So we may have a "he said she said" case that gets nowhere but gobbles up our precious taxes. That is why I am in favor of a quick settlement and not a 10 year Napergate II style battle.

Caps don't mean yelling, Kevin! I think they menan EMPHASIS!

In conclusion, young people like you, who spent time in surrounding towns will only remember him vaguely as you stated. He was strictly Naperville and ran his ads only in Naperville. I don't think he could afford to run his ads in surrounding towns with the budget of a little liquor store. Let us try to be REALISTIC, Kevin!

Debbie:

"8. Your family does not care about the future of Naperville."

WOW, that's a heck of a personal dig on someone's family.

Just who do you think you are to make that accusation about someone's family?
Is this because they might hold a different opinion than yours?
The old "You're either WITH us or AGAINST us" mentality?

Unbelievable...

HEL,

Thank you for setting the record straight with regards to Napergate Man. My neighbor seems to be right only half the time. If you say they are here, then I'll trust you on that part.

My neighbor did give me some information about the napergate.com website though and that is that it was registered to someone who is affiliated with the Wheatland Township board (and plays a role in setting taxes through property values) and also a member of the executive committee of the WTRO group. Their mission statement seems to fit the 'Napergate' theme everyone keeps posting so much about. Is he by chance a member of either organization past or present? Unfortunately, the domain does not seem to be registered anymore and I can not verify this.

Could you please confirm/deny that part so I can determine if my neighbor has any clue what they are talking about or only half a clue? Thanks.

Good information is hard to come by sometimes, I appreciate you setting the record straight.

Marybeth,

On a hunch, tonight I asked my neighbor who has been here for 20 years about "Napergate" and he said he knew the individual and that they have since moved to Arizona. He seemed to know a lot more than I obviously have known about the whole thing so I have to take his version of things for what it is.

Posted by: Joe | January 1, 2008 01:25 AM
******************************************************************
Joe,
I would like to answer for Marybeth. I know people on these blogs suggested not responding to you. But it is hard when you spread rumors colored with grapevine that have no basis and choose to believe just any neighbor of 20 years or one you may have fabricated for all we know.

I know for a fact that he never moved to Arizona. He does not live in my subdivision but an adjoining subdivision. I saw him at the pool almost every day this summer diving. He is by far the best diver at our subdivision pool so it is hard not to notice him.

He walks a white dog daily and I and others see him often. I last spotted him last week looking out of my window walking his white dog. So I am sure he did not move to Arizona...really sure! Unless it happened the last 6 days!

He does like the quiet life and has an unpublished number. Of course I know his name but I will not publish it as I suspect he is not interested in being a public figure.

Anonymous,

If your family has been living in Naperville for 40 years and never heard of NAPERGATE here are some thoughts.

1. Your family is not politcally invovled.
2. Your family does not subscribe to the Naperville Sun.
3. Your family does not subscribe to the Daily Herad that also covered the Napergate Man and ran some Napergate Ads.
4. Your family does not read the Chicago Tribune which also covered the Naperville Man.
5. Your family does not read famous Tribune columnist Eric Zorn who joined the Napergate Parade with special columns supporting him.(try e-mailing him and ask him)
6. Your family did not attend any election forums in the 90s or early 2000s held in Naperville
7. Your family does not vote.
8. Your family does not care about the future of Naperville.
9. Your family is not internet savy and never checked Napergate.com
10.Your family does not care about Liquor Enforcement.
11.Your family does not watch the national news which ran a feature on the Napergate Man in Las Vegas when he won the award for the most "Responsible Drinking Campaign in the USA."
12.You family does not even care to read the front page of a newspaper if they bump into it accidentally in a Jewel or 7-Eleven.

Need I say more! Your posting "Anonymous" is a clue you did not want you and your family to be embarrassed.

As far as State Elections and his influence. The Napergate Man has no influence in State Elections and no one said he did on these blogs.

He has been inactive and of course that means he is not as well known as when he was active or to newcomers. Nevertheless he is still very well known, and could come back and re-establish himself as he already has a solidly laid foundation and have a significant impact on NAPERVILLE ELECTIONS!

No one followed him blindly. Everyone was against him and for the city, but he successfully converyed his message with documented facts, truths, and court verdits and turned the majority of residents around.

Anyway, Anonymous, I hope your family takes a better role in society and votes one day. If you are "anonymous" you usually are clueless to your surroundings. Would you care to identify yourself after what you said? I doubt it! Does anyone know who Anonymous may be? Can the moderator tell us? I guess when you are anonymous you can't make a fool of yourself!!!

(Note:I cannot esxplain it ---many of my posts show up as anonymous-----Bob S.)

All the shoulda, coulda, I think, he must haves, etc., on this blog are hilarious!

Newsflash: No one knows what someone else is thinking, or what they would do, in a given situation. We don't kow Pradel, DF, etc. well enough to know what their motivation is. As an aside, I have seen the Mayor act pretty bullyish at times. It didn't bother me. I want my Mayor (and councilpersons) to be tough. If not, they run the risk of being pawns to other interest groups (like developers? Did THAT ever happen in Naperville? ---By the way, that is a rhetorical question).

Trying to putr a dollar amount on everything is a fool's errand. You CANNOT put a dollar value on a rights violation. Juries do NOT like them. If you follow the court system, you will find that right or wrong juries tend to put an onerous burden of proof on the rights violator in such cases. You will also find that they love to give out moolah in these cases.

Whatever happened to just looking at data?

Randy and others stuck on a hypothetical that did not happen:

There's a saying: If a frog had wings, it wouldn't bump its butt when it hopped.

The fact is a frog doesn't have wings, and the fact is that Mayor Pradel and Councilman Wehrli did not insert themselves into a situation to attempt to tell a police officer what their orders are. *THAT* is called POLITICS, when a POLITICIAN attempts to give an order to POLICE and do it OUTSIDE the chain of command. (Stop towing cars).

Mayor Pradel and Councilman Wehrli did not do this.

DF did.

Taxpayer,

Do you actually want a mathematical acknowledgment that

X ‹ ( 1.5 * X )

Where X = Normal Pay rate and 1.5*X = Overtime pay.

I'm sorry, I did not know you were waiting with anticipation of this 2nd grade math fact. Actually, I think my kids worked on inequalities in kindergarten.

There, I admit, X is less than 1.5 * X Happy New Year.

You've still not shown how many more officers (and their cost) we need to add to payroll to remove the overtime pay cost and show that it is indeed CHEAPER for the same level of service.

Cindy & Huntington Estates Lady,

I never said "no one" remembers the Napergate Man...I said "I think some people are giving way too much credit to this Napergate Man as I am sure that most people who live in Naperville today have no clue who this guy is." I still believe that statement is true as this is a town of over 140,000 people.

I have lived in Naperville most of my life (from 4th grade to now with some stops outside, but living in near by cities) and I vaguely remember these ads...you guys make it sound like he just snaps his fingers and 3500 (which was mentioned in one person's blog) people flock to the polls like sheep to do whatever this man asks of him...I would hope the people of this fine city would stop to actually form an opinion of their own before just doing what they are told by this Napergate Man. I don't doubt he had a lot of influence during that time as I read people talking about him with a lot of admiration on these blogs. I respect that and it sounds like he did some great work for the average citizen, but my point is that I think we live in a different world today and we have a lot more independent thinkers out there who question everything they read or hear more than they did even 10+ years ago.

I have asked around to small number of people who have lived in Naperville for 15+ years and they vaguely remember these ads and they can't remember the person's name. The Napergate name was familiar to them, but the "details were fuzzy" as one person told me. Now, I did not go out and ask a large number of people, but just some people that I know who have lived here a long time and some random people while waiting in line at stores. I was just curious as I have read about it here and I wanted to learn more about the topic. I still want to learn more about it as it sounds like a great example of rallying people to a specific cause.

The point I am trying to make here is don't be so sure that people today just do whatever they are told or believe whatever they read in a full page ad. If I agree with what the information is saying, than I would follow that cause, but I just don't do what anyone says because they ask me to do it even if I have agreed with them in the past. Just my two cents..ok maybe more than two cents! Happy New Year!

Kevin

P.S. When you use all caps in emails, text messages or blogs it means you are yelling...I hope that was not your intent in your blogs back to me. Thanks!

James,
I can't wait to see if you feel the same way about "the army of police downtown" after you pay your first $100.00 fine from being caught by the "red light camera program" instead of a real live policeman. Hey, maybe we should just have more camera's installed and get rid of a few overtime abusive cops? Hummmm..

My last post should have been addressed to Randy.

Also, you didn't answer MY question. Why should the city allow Furstenau to coerce them into paying taxpayer dollars to pay off his personal polical expenses, and to pay off his political campaign donors?

Posted by: Southwest Naperville Taxpayer | December 31, 2007 02:32 PM
__________________________________________________________________

Just because I support Furstenau it does not mean I think he should be entitled to his politcal expenses and campaign donors money back. He should not!!

He should only be entitled to damages relating to his false arrest. His attorney fees, courts costs, etc. He said he wanted $10,000 for his time. I think that is fair and reasonable for a man who was put in the ringer for nearly 2 years.

He really does not sound like a greedy guy. But he is mistaken to try to reimburse the campaign contributers. I don't think anyone is asking for reimbursement and his asking for it on their behalf hurts his credibility.

DF must not have the right advisors. The Napergate Man seemed to surround himself with a lot of good advisors who prevented some of the mistakes DF is making. But let us hope he learns quickly and reverses his few negatives before they erode his popularity. DF needs to make a few calls to some old friends and get better advice in some areas! He can not win this battle against City Hall without help. Beating City Hall is not easy and happens once or twice a century.

City Hall does not like to beaten. That is why when they get a serious challenger like DF or the Napergate Man, they retain 2 outside legal firms to help. I understand that may not be the complete reason for DF because there is some Conflict of Interest but in the Napergate Case there was not a Conflict of Interest and they went out and retained 2 additonal Chicago powerhouse law firms to assist the sizable in house legal staff. All for ONE GUY! Just a simple retailer! And they ended up losing the case to a former NOBODY. The city is the one that made the Napergate Man bigger than life for fighting him so hard over for nearly 2 decades. He was really a NOBODY just trying to run a small liquor store and mind his own business. The one lesson I think the city officials should take from the Napergate Case is not to make this an egotistical case that must be won at any and all costs. That is usually a formula for certain failure and doom.

Marybeth,

On a hunch, tonight I asked my neighbor who has been here for 20 years about "Napergate" and he said he knew the individual and that they have since moved to Arizona. He seemed to know a lot more than I obviously have known about the whole thing so I have to take his version of things for what it is.

marybeth, ameena, michele, and anyone else who supports logical thinking,

you should all ignore joe and pretend he no longer exists. he is incapable of logical thinking or answering questions. he only answers questions with assumptions or by twisting the point you are making. he doesn't have the slightest idea about what he is talking about. he will never answer a direct question, he will only answer by giving a number of irrelevant, speculated circumstances as fact. it is clear that you can try and explain something over and over again and he still doesn't get what you are trying to say. he is clueless and not worth the time to entertain on this blog.

for example, he still thinks overtime is no big deal as long as a cop answers a call or is busy on overtime. he has no idea that the point many people have tried to make to him is that a cop answering a call on a normal pay rate is less expensive than a cop answering a call on an overtime rate. that maybe we should look into hiring some more cops to reduce the amount of overtime pay, or to look into what the balance point would be between the cost of adding additional man power vs. paying large amounts of overtime. he will never get it. he is incapable of it.

my advice is to completely ignore him all-together. he has no credibility on this blog anyway so don't give him the time of day. his pointless babble needs no response. ever since i began ignoring him i have become a much happier and relaxed person. you will to. use your valuable time to debate people who are intelligent and logical in their opinions. learn to enjoy the sweet feeling of ignoring ignorance.

T.B.,
HOW THIS RELATES TO NAPERGATE............
(Corrected for errors that some bloggers pointed out...it is always good to be corrected)

The touching or non-touching of a cop is not the real issue here.
If Mayor Pradel or Council Member Wehrli touched the cop and told him to take it easy on towing, I guarantee you with 100% certainty that Mayor Pradel would not have been charged and with 99% certainty that Council Man Wehrli would have not been charged. This is called POLITICS!

So this is how it relates to Napergate. It is about establishment vs. anti-establishment. You have more rights in town if you are pro-establishment. The Napergate Man had no rights in town because he was anti-establishment. The establishment is trying to strip DF of all his rights and power because he is anti-establishment and refuses to fold as Rosonova has after initially being part of the Napergate Party.(or at least accepting their support and documented endorsements in full page ads)

DF poses a serious threat to the establishment. If Mayor Pradel resigns, the next Mayor will be DF. THE ESTABLISHMENT IS WORRIED! They are not worried about him harmlessly touching a cop. Pul....lease..!!!

This is politics! All the way! No one thought when the Napergate Man discovered DF in the early 90s amongst his supporters of 3500 that he would reach this ICON status. But he has reached it! The Napergate Man loved him because he is for fiscal responsibility just as he was! He was against corruption just as he was! He was anti-establishment as he was! He was for accountability to the taxpayer as he was! He was very principled as he was! He was his favorite candidate AND GAVE HIM HIS highest rankings in his election campaign ads.

Yes, DF lost the 1995 elections despite a huge effort by the so called Napergatian Party. But they as well as many other groups thru out Naperville kept working hard for him until he was finally elected in 1999.

As the Napergate Man became influential with his powerful ads, the city attempted to destroy him. I think they would have succeeded if the courts did not step in. As DF has become influential, the city is attempting to destroy him also. The city could succeed but if he goes to the courts and wins as the Napergate Man did, the city will fail.

DF is not going to the courts for money. He is a principled man that does not care about money. He cares about his reputation, his political career and his constituents.

There are only 2 differences between the Napergate Man and DF. One is that the Napergate Man hates politics and would never seek public office. The other difference is the Napergate Man likes Mayor Pradel immensely! The reason being is the Mayor very principled and has treated him fairly as a Liquor Commissioner. The previous 3 Mayors in their capacities as Liquor Commisioners tried to railroad him out of town.

I do not think Mayor Pradel and the Napergate man see eye to eye on everything but there does not seem to be any animosity between them. They apparently get along fine. And of course the Napergate man admires DF watching out for the taxpayers at all times.

I suspect if Mayor Pradel resigns one day and DF decides to run for Mayor against John Rosonova the Napergate Man would probably resume his full page ads and support Furstenau for Mayor. And while DF has established himself to beat any other candidate in a Mayoral race if Pradel resigns, the Napergate Man, his supporters and ads could give DF not only a victory but a landslide victory.

So this is the relation. The establishment is fearing the future. The estbalishment is fearing Mayor Dick Furstenau before he is even Mayor. If the Napergate Man can get DF 4 other council members elected as he once actually did, Mayor Furstenau may change the way the city is run. It could become a Mayor run town instead of a City Manager run town. I personally would like to see that as I feel the Mayors are completely underappreciated and underpaid. As one blogger stated, it is ridiculous that a police officer can make 4 times what a Mayor makes. They are both public servants! Only in Naperville can such disparities exist!

So TB, this is the story behind the silly arrest. It is a deep story about politics and not touching. I just gave you a tiny tidbit. And yes, I know a lot and was one of the 3500 people who worked with the Napergate Man during election time to help get the Napergate Slate elected!

Most of us would rather stay retired. But unfortunately this vicious attack on DF has bothered us. I think the city is acheiving the opposite of what it is intending in regards to DF.
They are waking up his old supporters who were sleeping quietly. The more they battle DF, the more powerful he will become.

Having said all this I feel that Mayor Pradel is a very principled man and can stop this battle if he does not let others influence him. He can be tough when he wants to be and I have faith in him that he will bring a reconciliation with DF before this escalates any further and the attorneys take us to the cleaners as they did in Napergate.

For the newcomers in town, Mayor Pradel had nothing to do with the Napergate battle. And it was not him who shreded all the legal records pertaining to the cost. It was most likely former Mayor Sam McCrane who ordered the shredding of the records. I think he is decesased now but he went on record and told the Naperville Sun they did not exist and if they did exist he would not provide them. So I think it is not far fetched to assume he ordered them shredded as no one has been able to get them for over a decade!

It is Mayor Pradel who somehow found a way to make a reconciliation with the Napergate Man when no one thought it was possible. I believe if he steps up to the plate he can make a reconciliation with DF and we can all move on to other subjects and be a happy famiy again.

Happy New Year to everyone and I hope we can Bury the Hatchet in 2008! Peace be upon you all!

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." - Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

Michele B. - This could equally apply to you. Be careful what quotes you pick.

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." (The author is repugnant, but the meaning still resounds today) -- Joseph Goebbels

I also happen to agree with Kevin's post above. I have been a Naperville resident for the past eight years and married into a family that has been in Naperville for 40+ years. I have never heard of this Napergate guy and I don't care what he thinks. I also doubt most transplants to Naperville care, either, so his influence (if there still is any) is waning day by day. If this Napergate guy's influence was so great, please explain why DF lost the state primary election.

Maribeth - no politician should inject themselves into the NPD chain of command and should deal through the Chief or watch commander. The last thing you want is a patrol officer questioning whether to respond to their superiors or their politicians. Give it some thought and I'm sure you'll agree. Patrol officers responding to the whims of politicians is ripe for abuse.

Amenna, If I misquoted a year, sue me. Page 10
http://www.naperville.il.us/emplibrary/FY08AnnualOpBudget-Intro.pdf

Marybeth, Mayor Pradel didn't do the dumb thing DF did. I told you I believe Mr. Pradel would have worked through the chain of command or saw to it that their money was refunded from any tow or ticket charges if it was indeed UNLAWFUL. Mr. Pradel never seemed like the type to argue a stupid point on the street with a police officer.

So I am a rookie, big deal. It takes how many veteran Napergatans to deal with a 'rookie'? What is it now 5-7 of you to 1 rookie ole me?

Quit worrying about me or your opinion of me and just stick to the facts.

Joe,
Do you really believe Mayor Pradel would have been arrested if he would have touched the cop and told him not to tow because the signs were not posted properly and in a timely manner?

I think Randy hit the nail on the head with his explanation.

I buy it! It just seems to logical not to be true.

You should try to answer his question directly without inserting if, ors and whatevers. He asked a simple question! Don't qualify it! Just answer it! You volunteered so answer the question AS IS without altering. What is so hard about that?

I am sorry Joe. But you seem like a rookie now that some Napergatians who have been around Naperville for a long time seemed to have joined the debate on this blog. They seem so diplomatic and you seem so argumentative. Why Joe!!!

Joe,
Simple question! No hostility please!
Can you explain how the tax rate went DOWN when it is both exactly .6966 in 2006 payable in 2007 while you state it is also .6966 in 2008.

If you are right it would have remained the same rate. I checked my 2006 bill twice to verify the .6966.

Where can I verify your 2008 rate? I hope you don't mind me calling you out since you call us all out all the time.

Ameena

Marilyn,

I am not nor have I ever been affiliated with NPD and have repeated that time and time again.
If you are still continually mistakenly thinking I am with them, then I can not help you any further with that continued state of confusion.

Joe,
So basically we both agree that our actual real estate taxes went up. This simply means that PART of our increase could be OVERTIME POLICE pay.

Do you want to dispute that or could you just move on to another subject?

My only point is in the Napergate Days politicians tried to use this tactic of "no rate" increases on the Taxpayers but the Napergate Man made it clear that their taxes were going up significantly despite miniscule reductions in rate increases.

So I guess the Napergate Man, you and I all agree!!!

Can we leave it at that? Can we AGREE for a change!

Joe, why don't you post your first NOTICE of AGREEMENT on these blogs so we can all have a Happy New Year. Is that possible Joe, or do you want to argue frivolously all the way to your grave?

Mrs. Police Officer,
I just wanted to say hi. I wish you would post more so we can get educated. I seem to be able to learn from you and respect what you say.

This Joe Dude has been acting as the Spokesman for the Naperville Police on these blogs and really seemed to have turned everyone against the police with his BULLY TACTICS.

The more you post and tell us about the police, the more I like the police.

The more Joe posts and tells us about the police, the more I dislke the police.

Someone in the police dept needs to tell Joe to stop being their Spokesperson.

Marilyn

Hi Randy,
I enjoyed reading your post of
Posted by: randy | December 30, 2007 11:37 PM

It was very informative. I must say I was one of the ones confused with this Napergate Stuff tying into this DF Stuff.
But somehow after reading your long post, it all makes sense to me...or maybe I should say almost!

I have met DF a few times and I never thought of him as a bully. I met the Napergate Man at the elections forums in the 90's. He just seemed way to mild mannered to endorse a BULLY!
Something just is not adding up!

So I am beginning to think as you did, they are fearing that DF will be popular enough to be Mayor one day when Mr. Pradel decides not to run again.

And as far as these elections, half of it is about name recognition. And this fiasco has given DF massive name recognition. So the city just seems to be doing all the wrong things to promote him while trying to destroy him.

I agree with you that the Napergate Man could easily with his talent and army of supporters give DF a landslide victory for Mayor, but only if he drops his lawsuit. But as many others I don't believe Pradel is beatable! He is just too honest and friendly and people love him. So DF will have to wait Mayor Pradel out!

So I think the city is fearing the post Pradel days as you indicated. The establishment appears to be very nervous. I hope Pradel remains healthy and lives for a very long time.

As much as I enjoyed those Napergate Ads, I really don't want them to come back! The town has been so much more peaceful without them. And I have no doubt that Mayor Pradel deserves all the credit for pacifying the Napergate Man. He is the first non-bully Mayor we have had in a quarter century. In some ironic twist, the Napergate Man just did not respond favorably to the former bully Mayors. He responds well to non-bully Mayors such as Mr. Pradel. If DF is a bully, I can assure everyone that the Napergate Man would never endorse him. I honestly don't know if DF is a bully or not. I hope he is not!(When I met him in person he was NOT!)

Mayor Pradel is a breath of fresh air. I am glad that both sides of this battle agree that Pradel is a good man. I feel he is too. He has really brought peace to this town after ending Napergate. I think as you say he can bring peace by ending the battle with DF. He did call him his child at the last city council meeting. To me that indicates he cares about him and wants to bring him back in the fold.

My hope is the Mayor is not influenced by those who do not want a reconciliation. I think the Mayor cares about the taxpayers just like DF. He does not have an ego. So at some point he will make DF an offer for some of his sustanined losses and it will be over.

But for DF to think the city should reimburse his supporters who donated into his campaign coffers is ridiculous and offensive.

This is where he differs from the Napergate Man. I can not imagine the Napergate Man wanting the cost of his ads reimbursed which I am sure cost more than 50k or 60k. He restored his reputation thru his ads. DF needs to try to lick some of his losses and move on like the Napergate Man did!

I do believe that if DF continues this nonsense expensive legal battle though, he will gradually erode his support and even lose the next election no matter how many rabbits the Napergate Man has left in his hat.

He should have just focused on the next election and put a call into the Napergate Man. That would have been his best option.
I think he is blowing his chances to be the next Mayor with this frivolous lawsuit.

I guess I agree with you on the Napergate Man but I think trying to compare the 2 is unfair to the Napergate Man. Other than that I mostly agree with you, Randy!

If my post sounds a little illogical and confusing it is. After reading it a second time I realized that I am very CONFUSED!!

Ameena,

Are you telling me that people actually expect their DOLLAR AMOUNT for taxes to remain fixed each year while their WORTH on their house goes up?

You have got to be kidding me.

Even with a FLAT TAX PERCENTAGE RATE your dollar amount increases if your home value increases.

7% of a 100K home is $7K
7% of your home now worth $110,000 is now $7,700

OMG a tax increase of $700!!! Quick stop the presses!

My home is worth around 81% more than when I bought it 9 years ago. Yes my taxes went up but so did my equity. In fact, taxes are up 41% overall in that 9 years but my equity is up 81% (approx).. I am really paying LESS in taxes as a percentage of my home value than I was 9 years ago. Sorry if you aren't.

Also, the biggest chunk of my tax bill is the public school system, not anything having to do with police overtime.

Are you by chance affiliated now or in the past with the groups like VoteNo or CRUST or any other of the anti-tax groups perhaps?

Michele B.,
Just so you know...
There is no "padding" of holiday over-time for officers near retirement. Either the holiday falls on their scheduled day to work, or it does not. It is that simple - an officer cannot decide to work a holiday for the OT.
As far as being called in for over-time, it is done on a seniority bases AS NEEDED when the staffing is below minimum. There are rules, believe me. And it is the officers choice when they are called to take the OT or pass on that given day. There are senior officers who want to come in and there are plenty who do not, then the next officer on the list gets called.

Bob S. (I assume that you was you posting as "Anonymous"), let me re-state my point in other terms: DF was NOT found 'innocent' of hitting the officer; he was found 'not guilty'. They are NOT the same thing. All a 'not guilty' verdict means is that the prosecution did not prove it's case BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. In a criminal court, the judge or jury might deem it possible or even likely that the defendant committed the crime of which he is accused, but if there is room for reasonable doubt, then a verdict of 'not guilty' MUST be returned. The burden of proof in a criminal trial is ENTIRELY on the prosecution; the defense doesn't have to prove anything. In the civil trial, DF won't have the benefit of the presumption of innoncence, and his lawyer will have to prove something: in order to prove his conspiracy theory, his lawyer is going to have to convince the jury that DF almost certainly didn't hit the officer; if he can't do this, then he can't show that the police did not have probable cause to arrest him.

You are correct in stating that my reference to OJ Simpson was not completely analogous, since OJ was not the plaintiff in the civil trial. My point, though, was that OJ's having been found 'not guilty' in the criminal trial did not deter the jury in the civil trial from finding him liable for the deaths of Nicole Simpson and Ron Goldman. The jury in the second trial didn't need to be convinced of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt; they just needed to be convinced that it was more likely than not that OJ killed those two people.

I find the tax complaints and misplaced anger about them comical at best. The City adopted a property tax rate levy of .6966 for 2008. The lowest levy in over 30 years. Some people simply choose to be unhappy regardless of the reality of the situation, I suppose.

Posted by: Joe | December 29, 2007 04:55 PM
******************************************************************
Joe, its Ameena! I am back....

I think the reason you seem to be behind everyone else in knowledge is you missed the Education Course by Napergate Ads in the 90's and are trying to catch up.

The Napergate Man explained that a.6969 decrease to say .6966 in the tax rate is actually a significant increase in actual tax if your home is assessed 7% higher than the previous year. I am going to try to explain to you what I read in a Napergate Ad from memory. I think I can! The example below is mine based on what I understood the Napergate Ad to be saying.

If your home is assessed at $300,000 and your rate is .6969 of say 1% you city tax would be $2090.7.(numbers are hypothetical for this example)

Now if a year later the assessors office raises your home assessment by 7%, it will now be assessed at $321,000.

If your taxed at the lower rate of .6966 of 1% you will get a tax bill of $2236.09 or an increase of $145.39 in your ACTUAL REAL TAXES!

The Napergate Man called city officials out on this "wording" gimmick a decade ago. It is common sense! The rate means nothing! The dollar amount is what counts. The city was using the rate to pad its back. The Napergate Man was showing in his ads that while the rate was in fact down, everyone's taxes had actually gone up.

Well, the taxpayers apparently bought the Napergate Man's version and thus one of the reasons for his success and getting so many candidates elected. He always talked the language that the common person understands. Joe talks the city language that is sometimes meant to mislead such as in this case.

With all this inflation going on and wasteful spending the only way the "rate" can be decreased a fration of a thousand for publicity purposes is by jacking up the assessed value of the homes to cover all the increases including police overtime. In fact if you look at any of your old real estate tax bills regardless of the rate, your taxes go up EVERY SINGLE YEAR. I just looked to make sure the Napergate Man was right. And yes, he was right! Also when looking I noticed that the 2006 city rates payable in 2007 were in fact the .6966 Joe quoted for 2008. So either Joe has his years mixed up or the rate for 2008 is identical and not less than the 2006 rates payable in 2007. Not sure, but Joe will have to answer while I return to the library for a little more research and education.

Naperville Township informed me my home assessment had gone up 7% this year when I called to complain based on my latest notice. I knew it did not really go up in value the last year. I am sure of that! Anyway I am appealing my real estate tax bill for the first time this year as I am just getting tired of these hefty assessments and tax increases year after year wherever and however they may be coming!

Finally Joe, your statement "that the tax complaints and misplaced anger about them is comical at best" is your illusion. The only thing really comical about our discussion is your character....nothing else!

Marybeth, how many cars got towed and what did it cost the city?

Did it cost the city $130,000 ?? That's how much DF wants it to cost the city now.

If the city towed 20 cars, that's a $4,000 Mea Culpa.

Now, DF created a condition where he feels it should cost the city no less than $130,000 BY HIS OWN DOING.

Would you rather the city pay $4,000 or pay $130,000? Since everyone here is complaining about TAXPAYER MONEY, let's be honest here? What's cheaper for the TAXPAYER? $4,000 or $130,000?

I only used 20 cars as an example. How many ACTUALLY got towed and what did it ACTUALLY cost the city in 'wrongful tow' payments that were paid out to people from that incident on that street at that time?

Anything? Anyone? Wow, look at the money DF saved the city!

Michele,

Officer Hull was not responsible for posting signs. That is usually a Public Works job to perform those duties. If Officer Hull was told by his watch commander to ticket and tow cars in the prior approve by Council Temporary Tow Zone, it was lawful.

Who ever challenged the zone in a court of law to have a ruling that it (the tow zone) was unlawful? Anyone?

This isn't Rodney King, Officer Hull did not beat DF with a night stick so why even try to loop in such a non-related incident?
What next, are we going to try to relate Ted Bundy to the case somehow?

Randy,
Thanks for your posts to T.B and Southwest Taxpayer! You really show the connection and relevance between Napergate and DF.
I would agree that the relevance is not limited to the COST of the legal battle. It obviously far exceeds that especially since it seems the Napergate Man found DF and helped elect him!

Welcome aboard, Randy! It is really nice to get new bloggers here with different perspectives and true knowledge. It is obvious to me when someone like you writes he has first hand knowledge as opposed to spreading rumors and repeating grapevine chat!

I hope more people with first hand knowledge join these blogs as there seems to be so many unanswered questions.

And I really see your point that Mayor Pradel would not have been arrested for doing the same thing as DF. And I could see Mayor Pradel doing the same thing as he really cares about the citizens and would hate to see cars towed without proper notice.

I think the difference is the police would never dare to mess around with Mayor Pradel. He is in good standing with Chief Dial. And they know Chief Dial would never take the side of any cop over Mayor Pradel even if Mayor Pradel told the cop to do something he had no authority to tell him to do. Mayor Pradel is not some kind of weakling that is going to look for a Captain or Lieutanent if he sees a crisis such as towing cars that clearly should not be TOWED because his city failed up to put signs in a timely manner. He would take action on the scene and deal with the chain of command issues later. Each car towed wrongfully could cost the city $200 dollars. Why would he want to accrue that potential damage to the city? Thus we need to understand that DF was probably trying to do the same thing Mayor Pradel would have done.

So let us not praise one man for doing the right thing and condemn another for also doing the right thing.

I would speculate that Chief Dial has issued orders to his entire police force never to mess around with the Mayor. And they will never mess around with the Mayor whether he yells at them or touches them to scold them. Trust me on that one! It is COMMON SENSE as you say...of course for everyone but this Joe Guy!

Joe,

Fustenau's claim is that Officer Hull was acting outside the law and towing/ticketing cars without following the proper procedure that requires no-parking signs to be posted well before the ticketing or towing started. The NPD has never responded to that claim. It would be easy for Chief Dial to investigate, he has access to all the ticketing towing records.

Anyway, if Hull were acting outside the law, and as you suggest, Hull arrested Furstenau (or anyone else) for arguing, protesting or even resisting, then Hull would be convicted for "false arrest". To understand this issue, replace the "wrongful towing" claim with a situation in which a policeman was doing something more offensive (how about beating Rodney King). Anyway, when a police officer is acting outside the law, he has no ability to make a lawful arrest. An unlawful arrest is a crime. Arguing or protesting against an unlawful police activity is not a crime.

Rainman,

I think you're confirming my point - not correcting it.

If Holiday Overtime increases the Pension Obligations, then Holiday Overtime should be properly managed for retiring officers. I think it would be poor management if Chief Dial is allowing excessive holiday overtime as a way to increase pensions.

Kevin,
I beg to disagree with you that no one knows or remembers the Napergate Man. I know all the people in Huntington Estates and Pembroke Commons know him very well to this day. Plus all across Hobson Road from East to West! He saved our neighborhoods from commercial encroahment and preserved the values of all of our homes.

We remember him very well and always thank him when we see him walking his dog or swimming at the pool that serves all the subdivisons he was protecting. And my goodness, that ugly shopping center they were trying to build was going to be right next to our subdivision pool. And I have no doubt if that developer attorney whatever his name was, tries to pull another stunt again like the one he did with Spring Green the Napergate Man would spring out to help us immediately. I have no doubt about that!

He seems like he actually enjoys living a quiet non-political life but if his toes are stepped on, I would just say WATCH OUT!!

Try asking the Mayor and the Council Members if they know him??? That would be a good start to find out who knows him and who does not! You may be surprised to find out HOW WELL THEY KNOW HIM!

I think some people are giving way too much credit to this Napergate Man as I am sure that most people who live in Naperville today have no clue who this guy is. I am willing to bet if you put out a poll to the Naperville citizens about what Napergate was, most people would have no clue what happened then or would probably even care.
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Kevin,
I disagree with you. The only people who don't know about him are people that moved to town in the last 5 or 6 years. The old timers that vote know very much about him. They voted all of his candidates in and re-elected them.

I believe circulation at that time for the Sun was about 22,000. I don't know what it is now. Maybe the moderator can help.
If it dropped in half, of course the ads will not be as powerful.
If it is the same or better, Napergate ads should be as effective.

Plus you are assuming the Napergate Man is behind the times. He was one of the first to go on the internet with the Napergate.com site in the early to mid 90's. You could read his same ads on the net or newspaper at the time. So he was ahead of the times. Maybe that is why he was so effective! With that many supporters, he had help. Some girl from Ashbury designed it all for him and updated it. Can't remember her name. One of his many Napergatian supporters.

Just because a few hundred of us enjoy blogging, that does not mean that we suddenly control elections. I am sorry Kevin, but full page ads are still hundreds of times more powerful than bloggin. We are the minority on here.

And I am sure it would not be hard for a blogger to scan his ads and post them on these blogs to influence the 200 of us on here bloggin. But really how do we compete with the 20,000 subscribers of the Sun who read the paper. One reason they buy the paper is because of ads and coupons. If what you are saying was true, all newspapers would have been out of business by now.

I am assuming you are a new timer not to know about the Napergate Man. The old timers vote much more heavily than the new timers and are more deeply involved in politics.

And if you read the blogs the last 2 months, it seems quite a few people remember him vividly. Maybe half refer to him as they somehow see a resemblance of sorts. I also see the resemblance. It just seems police power was used to attempt to silence both the Napergate Man and DF. And that really is a terrible thing to involve the police in politics.

And finally I agree with Randy, that Mayor Pradel would never have been arrested for asking a police officer to stop towing whether he touched him or not. That really is a no brainer for anyone but this character Joe who needed to change the scenario this time instead of the words.

When someone publishes 100 full page ads with a title like NAPERGATE with Roman Numerals numbering each one, he is not forgotten that easily. At least I have not forgotten about him!
And even if some people forgot about him, a few ads and they will remember him.

It seems like no one can remember his name including myself, but maybe that is to his benefit since remembering the Napergate Man is easier than remembering a name. Another possible reason why he is still remembered. Just my speculation and thoughts!

Michele,

I wouldn't want that job either. I would have been too tempted to do the following:

"Sir, I am executing the assignment given to me by my watch commander which is to enforce the ordinance passed on December 6 2005 by the City Council of which you are a member, sir. Please step over there by that barricade so you do not interfere with my duties."

If he did not comply I would then order this specific person back to the barricade and loudly state: "Sir, please do not invade my body space or interfere with the lawful duty of a police officer. If you do not comply with this lawful order I will use necessary force to ensure compliance."

After that, it's handcuffs or taser and you know what? An investigation would have found that it was lawful use.

It's probably a good thing I'm not really a cop because I would not have been anywhere near as patient as Officer Hull was. I have no tollerance for adults whining and complaining like children unless there is some neurological condition at play.

As for Overtime Abuse: Why doesn't DF work to change the number on the employment list for the police department? He voted IN FAVOR of the current staffing levels. Why has this champion of the taxpayers not done anything to increase their head count so there would be no further need for overtime?

Maybe you should ask him that question directly. If it were me, I would double the number of patrol officers... but I'm not on Council so what I want doesn't matter. In the meantime, I'll pay my $20 a year for their darn good coverage and response times.

I hope everyone else is digging for their tax bills to post their number from the line item I requested. Let's see just how much we each are paying for 'overtime' and excessive police coverage. Anyone?

MIchele B,

You are misinformed on the issue of overtme having an impact on the officers pension. A retiring police officer's pension is determined by the officers pensionable salary which does not include overtime worked, but does include the overtime assoicated with holiday's worked.

Michele B.,
Looks like you have been schooled in the Furstenau methods of conduct. Just go around making unsubstatiated accusations, and threaten the job of a detractor to divert attention away from the facts.

As the saying goes "If you cant dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with b...sh*t!"

Just baffling!

Joe,

Only one clarification regarding the line items affected by Police Overtime.

Part of Furstenau's issue with the way Police Overtime has been abused in the past is the issue of "double-dipping." Chief Dial (or someone) appears to be allowing officers that are nearing retirement age to get an undue amount of overtime in their last year of service. A police officer's pay in the year before retirement determines the amount of their Pension. So, police overtime, if poorly managed creates long term liabilities that our children will be paying.

I'm not opposed to our police force being well-paid. I wouldn't want that job at any salary. But, I want the police pay practices to be fairly debated, properly managed and within the range of salaries offered by other similar cities.

I am absolutely opposed to any police force using even the slightest, most miniscule amount of unwarranted police force against a political rival. Because Furstenau has been a clear, outspoken political rival, they should have never, not in a million years, pursued a crimal case against Furstenau without an "iron clad case." They new within 30 days of filing the charges that they had no eyewitness to the alleged "hitting" and that Furstenau had produced three eyewitnesses to say that Furstenau did not hit Hull. Those are the facts. After that was discovered, Chief Dial should have dropped the investigation. He would have dropped the investigation against anyone else in a similar circumstance. However, because Furstenau was involved, the case lingered on for 18 months. Chief Dial should be fired for this lapse of judgment and allowing the NPD to have "even the appearance" of a politically motivated police action.

More than anyone else in the entire drama, I lay the responsibility of the Furstenau Lawsuit on Chief Dial. He approved the investigation and refused to drop the case even after it was clear he would not get a conviction. The waste of resources could only be justified in the context of trying to "shut up" a vocal political opponent.

Joe: You got me good on that one. Actually, I was thinking about a book I once read called "The First Casualty" - about journalism as relating to war. The book began with the Crimean War. Touche

Jim / Moderator:

Samuel Johnson seems to have had the first word: 'Among the calamities of war may be jointly numbered the diminution of the love of truth, by the falsehoods which interest dictates and credulity encourages.' (from The Idler, 1758)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-21510,00.html

That's the earliest paraphrasing I could find so far.

Crimean was 100 years after that, no?

Joe: First said during the Crimean War.

"The first casualty in any conflict is the truth." --Paraphrased many times over by many since at least the 1750's

Michele B: Thanks. Say, are you a big reader or do I sense a book of handy quotations at the ready?

Jim Lynch -

Thanks for your comments. Sorry I left you out... so here you go!

For when you agree with me:
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Freedom of expression and freedom of the press are the very cornerstones of any democratic society. I firmly believe that it is the very right to question the status quo that allows a society to develop and prosper.
....Anders Fogh Rasmussen, Prime Minister of Denmark, February 3, 2006

For when you don't
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The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers.
.....Thomas Jefferson (1743 - 1826)

Once a newspaper touches a story, the facts are lost forever, even to the protagonists.
.....Norman Mailer (1923 - ), "Esquire", June 1960

My last post should have been addressed to Randy.

Also, you didn't answer MY question. Why should the city allow Furstenau to coerce them into paying taxpayer dollars to pay off his personal polical expenses, and to pay off his political campaign donors?

I think some people are giving way too much credit to this Napergate Man as I am sure that most people who live in Naperville today have no clue who this guy is. I am willing to bet if you put out a poll to the Naperville citizens about what Napergate was, most people would have no clue what happened then or would probably even care. I am also willing to bet that most people would not be influenced by a full page ad in the Naperville Sun by this man either. Keep in mind, more people are reading their newspapers online today than they did when he was putting these ads up...there are no full page ads online that I have seen, just articles and blogs. It is a different world we live in now...don't always think what worked 10+ years ago would work in today's world.

James,

You have it backwards.

Yes, I am not jumping on people's bandwagons.

Those bandwagons include: Having a solution (LESS POLICE) and are now searching for a PROBLEM.

What PROBLEM has been shown? Taxes? Really?!?! Did you miss the fact that the tax rate for the city is the LOWEST is has been for over 30 years? If you don't like your tax bill blame your PROPERTY VALUE for increasing. It's not due to Police OVERTIME.

If everything is just about money, how about we suggest that Edwards staff the hospital with 3 nurses. They could EASILY cover every patient. Some might have to wait their turn, but there is enough time in an 8 hour shift to get to every patient if they spend no more than 5 minutes with each one. At that rate, 3 nurses could cover ( 5 mins each = 20 per hour = 160 per hour * 3 nurses = 480 patients ). How many actual patients are in Edwards Hospital at any one given time? We'll use the 160 patient per nurse per hour model and work from there.

I think we just solved the Health Care Crisis in America! with that savings.

This is basically what the 'police problem' and 'solution' equates to.

Again, please identify the actual PROBLEM and show it is a PROBLEM for the City of Naperville.

Also, how many friends or family members do you have that have been killed by a Drunk Driver? In fact, maybe everyone should go to the Public Forum and state exactly what they are stating here that we have TOO MANY officers downtown and that we need LESS officers out there because we have TOO MANY DUI arrests in this city.

Will you do that at the next City Council meeting?

Short of that, why don't you post from your Primary Residence Real Estate tax bill exactly how much was levied by the line item that says "City of Naperville". That's where the OVERTIME pay comes out of, not the PENSION FUND and not the Naperville Park District nor the City Naperville Libr line item. Let's work out exactly HOW MUCH of your money goes to OVERTIME by determing how much of the overall budget it is and applying the percentage against that line item.

By my calculations, if we pay 5 million in overtime, Mine comes out to $20 for the year. (5 million alleged unnecessary overtime / 108 million budget) = 4.6%

My line item was $434 * 4.6% = $20.09

Please, double check my math to make sure I am doing this correctly. Is the city budget really only 108 million for FY 2008 or do I have the denominator wrong in my first calculation?

Keep me honest, please.

If you reread my blog, you will see that I answered your question with the following statement:
"It doesn't matter what might have happened hypothetically in a different situation."

Joe,
If 12 cops on one intersection only got called once or twice in an 8 hour shifts, maybe if we had 4 cops they would have each been called 3 to 6 times per shift. Something a cop can handle easily!

It is obvious to anyone who spends time downtown that these cops are hardly ever called.

I beleive you and others indicated there presence was for deterrence. So what bloggers are trying to say is let us see if we get the deterrence with much less cops. I think it makes sense.

If deterrence is so important maybe we can post some dummie police cars on the interesction with lights going with less police. If deterrence is what we need most drunks would never figure out how many police cars are manned and how many are not.
That would save tons of OVERTIME!

The state police uses this tactic on highways. They post many dummy police cars and when you are going 65 miles an hour you rarely have time to glimpse to check out the "officer" in the vehicle assuming you wanted to.

And how do you explain that one shopping center in Naperville with 3 busy bars and 500 patrons on weekends, has no police cars if you need so much deterrence and police to control bar patrons.

I tend to agree with most bloggers that the Army of Police in downtown is highly excessive and unnecessary.

My 2 cents worth, Joe!!

Again all you want to do is argue instead of assist others find solutions. You are wasting your life away!!

Randy, I'll field your question:

I don't believe Mr. Pradel would be so arrogant and conduct himself in such a manner to a member of Law Enforcement by invading their personal space.

I believe he would politely ask them to stop but would also accept whatever answer was given by the officer at the time or would have instead contacted the officer's supervisor and respected the chain of command.

A Council person can not give a direct order to a Policeman to the best of my knowledge. Can they?

Southwest Naperville Taxpayer,
You and all others ignored my question that if Mayor Pradel had touched the officer or told him to stop towing cars, if he would have been charged and arrested??? It seemed like this question bothered many!

I think we all know he would NEVER, NEVER, NEVER have been charged. Reasons:

1. He gets along better with the Police Chief than DF.
2. The ESTABLISHMENT would not tolerate it.
3. He is a former police officer and PROFESSIONAL COURTESTY would be extended.

Really, I am new on this bloggin and also don't believe in conspiracies. But I believe in Common Sense!

If anyone blogging here believes the Mayor Pradel would be arrested for touching or demanding a cop stop towing because signs were not properly posted in a timely manner, I would say they are wrong! The cop would NOT only NOT arrest or charge, but would back off.

In our system of government the Mayor and a Council Member have what amounts to almost EQUAL POWER. It is a City Manager run town and not a Mayor run town. That is why the City Manager gets the big bucks and the Mayor gets the small bucks.

A few years ago when Council Members were getting 5k, the Mayor was getting 15k. I think Council Members are now geting 10k and I assume and hope the Mayor is at least making 30k. Maybe someone can confirm as I tend to write from memory and not research as Ameena, Marilyn and Joe.

I apologize if I was wrong about DF being one of the top 2 vote getters. I read it on another blog here and maybe mistakenly chose to believe it. Could someone let me know how many votes he got and where he ranked?

I believe you are right about 4 of the council members being endorsed by the Napergate Man. I think they are Darlene Senger, Doug Krouse, John Rosonava, and Dick Furstenau. Those are all from his active days and he has been inactive for 5 or so years.
If he remained active, I believe he could have added one or two more. Just a feeling!

But I disagree with you that just because DF is only one of 4 that the Napergate Man endorsed that makes him less important. Every council man elected is very very important. I am sure the Napergate Man wished he had 5 or 6 elected. You need 5 votes in council to pass resolutions. So DF is very important and the Napergate Man probably wishes he had one more and not one less!

Have said that I believe the Napergate Man could get him over the top. He won the last election with 0 help from the Napergate Man. A few full page ads and asking his 3500 supporters to come out and vote, I believe can make Dick Furstena a Mayor. If he endorsed Darlene Senger for Mayor instead of DF, I think he can make her the Mayor to. All I was saying is he can make the difference needed.

Having said all this, I don't believe he is interested in rocking the boat as long as Mayor Pradel is the Mayor. He feels the Mayor has done a good job and been fair even though he disagrees with many of his decisons. Mayor Pradel brings stability to Naperville and no one wants to rock stability.

If you think DF is a bully, you never met former Mayors Chester Rybicki, Margaret Price, and Samuel McCrane. Those Mayors were real bullies. And 2 of 3 for sure circumvented election laws regarding contributions. The 3rd I am not sure of.

Mayor Pradel is a very honest man. It seems people love him for his honesty and don't care what side of the issue he votes on.
He is principled. I can tell you he earned the respect of the Napergatians when he did not flip his vote on Spring Green despite massive pressure that caused 7 others to flip to their side. He just showed Naperville that he votes his conscience and what he believes regardless of any pressures or influences put on him.
I somehow think that was the turning point that got him the respect of the Napergate Man and the Napergatians! Very odd! But from that point on they agreed to disagree and everyone has been getting along fine! I am optimistic and hoping it will stay that way!

Happy New Year to all bloggers and the Naperville Sun staff for doing a wonderful job this year!!

Michele B: You've done a lot of literary homework there. Let me add my favorite Churchill quote for what it's worth. The context was when the tide finally started to turn - North Afica - for the Allies in WWII. His famous words: "It may not be the beginning of the end, but it is the end of the beginning." Could that quote apply to this situation in Naperville?

For this final day of 2007, I decided to look back into history for thoughts or wisdom that might provide answers or at least some guidance to the questions raised on this blog.

Here's what I've found:

_________________________________________________________

QUESTION 1: Why would the City Manager attack Furstenau???

ANSWERS:

"Hell hath no fury like a bureaucrat scorned."
.......Milton Friedman (1912 - 2006)

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QUESTION 2: Should we allow the City to silence & discredit Furstenau???

ANSWERS:

Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens and creates a country where everyone lives in fear.
...Harry S Truman (1884 - 1972), August 8, 1950

The teaching of politics is that the Government, which was set for protection and comfort of all good citizens, becomes the principal obstruction and nuisance with which we have to contend… The cheat and bully and malefactor we meet everywhere is the Government.
...Ralph Waldo Emerson, …Journal, 1860

The First Amendment is often inconvenient. But that is besides the point. Inconvenience does not absolve the government of its obligation to tolerate speech.
...Justice Anthony Kennedy (1936 - )

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QUESTION 3: What should we tell Sotos (the City's attorney)?

Discourage litigation. Persuade your neighbors to compromise whenever you can. As a peacemaker the lawyer has superior opportunity of being a good man. There will still be business enough.
...Abraham Lincoln

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QUESTION 4: Is there any comfort for Furstenau?

ANSWERS:

I have always felt that a politician is to be judged by the animosities he excites among his opponents.
...Sir Winston Churchill

If I were to try to read, much less answer, all the attacks made on me, this shop might as well be closed for any other business.
...Abraham Lincoln (1809 - 1865)

Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to reform.
...Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)

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QUESTION 5: Finally you might wonder if I have any thougths for the City Staffers on this blog that continue to acuse Furstenau of hitting the NPD cop after he has been found "not guilty"?

ANSWER:

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
....Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

Randy,
You seem to forget that Furstenau was not targeted. Furstenau targeted the police officer by confronting the on-duty officer performing his duties. If Furstenau had not done that, none of this would ever have happened. It doesn't matter what might have happened hypothetically in a different situation. That was the situation, and Furstenau provoked it. I'll bet even the Napergate guy would know your story is irrelevant to Furstenau's arrest. No fairy tales please.

The politics I see in the REAL story is the fact that Furstenau is suing the city because the city refused to be coerced into giving him taxpayer's money to primarily pay off political election expenses. Why should taxpayers pay off his political friends?

By the way, Wehrli, and Senger had more votes than Furstenau in the last election. Just to remind you, we now have 4 out of 8 councilman who were endorsed by the all-important Napergate guy. That tell how unimportant Furstenau REALLY is to that issue.

Don't worry, T.B., I took care of it.

Jim Lynch or other moderator

I just sent a post without a name bu then corrected my error and resent with my initials on it. Please post the one from TB.

Thanks.

Randy -
As I see it, the city et al is of the opinion that DF is a bully who abused his office and city employees, as well as was accused (and acquitted) of a crime. DF and/or his supporters want to tie the alleged crime, the process behind the charge, and the alleged retaliation for the lawsuit as a far-reaching retribution against DF for various reasons such as his questioning of NPD OT pay and now your assertion that he is simply “a serious threat to the establishment”.

Frankly, what I’m waiting for and what I haven’t seen is any evidence either way, but I tend to shy away from conspiracy theories that make numerous assumptions or wild claims. Vast right-wing conspiracy, Roswell, and JFK come to mind when I hear about conspiracy theories.

Icon status? DF said that the arrest cost him the primary election for state senate. If he’s such an icon and well-loved by his constituents, why didn’t his supporters vote for him during the primary despite his (alleged) bogus arrest?

While I didn’t vote for DF, it had nothing to do with the arrest and I hold no animosity towards him now except that I believe he’s over-reaching with his lawsuit (I think he should stay focused on the allegation of false arrest). I asked DF one question before the primary election. I asked this supposed fiscal conservative and champion for the taxpaying people if he had supported or opposed the multi-million dollar city takeover of the Carillon from a private group. DF said he voted for the city takeover and my vote against him was sealed.

You wrote that “DF is not going to the courts for money. He is a principled man that does not care about money. He cares about his reputation, his political career and his constituents.” Not according to his attorney who stated (in part 3 of the series in The Sun) that “I don't think that [an apology] would be enough to end the case….” Sotos has been accused of wanting to drag this case out in order to increase his billing time, but maybe Collins should be as principled as his client and attempt to negotiate a no-money settlement for the betterment of the city’s taxpayers.

I, too, have a great deal of respect for Mayor Pradel and have heard good things about him both now and from his days as Officer Friendly at the schools. But it takes two to make amends and I haven’t seen that willingness from either side yet.

James and others,

Let's keep in mind (Since this is a Lawsuit happy town) that slow police response times and inability to put forth a good effort have been subjects of lawsuits in the past and awards have been granted.

If you want to reduce the number of MAN HOURS out there on the streets of Naperville to save your Million Dollars, pay attention to this... One drunk man on New Year's gets $850,000 because police didn't have the man-power (only devoted one officer to the search and only then for a small amount of time) to find his drunk passed out self.

http://www.overlawyered.com/2004/10/drunken_man_passes_out_wins_85.html

So, just one case will eat up your 'Savings' for trimming police work. Is this what you want for the city going forward? To have to constantly defend it's trimmed police man-hour budget from lawsuit after lawsuit from a very sue-happy population who wants things done YESTERDAY?

Think about that long and hard...

Randy,

Grant Wehrli was number one and Mayor Pradel was number two in the last election. I'm not sure where DF landed, but it was after those two for sure. There was a big article in the Sun about Wehrli beating out Mayor Pradel by a handful of votes (under 100 I believe) for the top spot. Just an FYI.

Kevin

James,

How about a deal:

I will concede it is a waste as soon as you pull the duty records that show *ANY* of those cops not being 'attached to a call' during their shift.

*THAT* constitutes waste. If they are actually used for calls, that is not waste.

Please go ask the Desk Sergent for the logs of this past summer and ask how many officers were on a shift downtown any evening while on overtime that never got attached to any call or reported in as assisting with anything in any way for the evening.

Get us that number, and we'll go with REAL calculations to calculate REAL savings.

Let's stop making the assumptions that just because someone happened to see them 'standing around' when they looked over that they did nothing all evening and their time spent there was a 'waste' or 'unnecessary'.

Post that up as soon as you or anyone else has it. I'm anxiously awaiting more 'research' on this topic.

Dear Taxpayer: Oh you are so right..I will never refer to DICK as DICK again. From now on, I will call DICK by his given name...Richard Cranium

Joe,
You are getting carried away. But if cops only makes 50 bucks in overtime hourly pay, your calculations indicate we can save $208,000 dollars per year alone on this one intersection.(416 hours X 50 = $208,000) This is not chump change!

And you are not factoring in the maintenance/depreciation on the SUVs, motorcylces, bikes, cars, and all the gas since the cops always leave their cars on in that intersection. Also extra Workmen Compensation Insurance and other possible costs. You can add $42,000 and now you have a quarter million for one intersection in downtown. We are getting somewhere with your help, Joe! Thanks!

Marilyn was giving one example of police waste on ONE INTERSECTION. If you can find this much in one place on summer weekends, you can certainly find the million dollars of cop overtime waste she is talking about if you studied the whole town for waste.

Since it is documented that we have 5-7 million in cop overtime, you should try to help Marilyn find where else we can cut overtime. And maybe one day we can all go together to a City Council meeting and present our findings to Chief David Dial.

I think she did a wonderful job. And you did a wonderful job in pinpointing a $250,000 dollar waste on this ONE intersection. The only thing I did is reduce your $240/overtime per hour to a more realistic $50/overtime per hour.

Now let us find another $750,000 of overtime police waste elsewhere and try to prove Marilyn right instead of wrong. It is obvious to me she is talking about decreasing COP MAN HOURS and not COP JOBS! Very obvious as long as you don't twist her thoughts and take her words out of context!!

I have to agree with Marshal that you should try to work with people instead of against them. What is wrong with proving someone right instead of proving someone wrong all the time. As Marshal said, you can gain a lot of respect if you changed your methods just a bit. People are wrting quickly on these blogs and getting back to their chores or work. They are not writing legal briefs. You need to remember that before you start ripping words apart for new meanings as opposed to what was truly intended.

Happy New Year Joe and really thanks for pointing out how we can save $250,000 on ONE INTERSECTION of unnecessary police overtime. You really did an awesome job!

T.B.,
HOW THIS RELATES TO NAPERGATE...................

The touching or non-touching of a cop is not the real issue here.
If Mayor Pradel or Council Member Wehrli touched the cop and told him to take it easy on towing, I guarantee you with 100% certainty that Mayor Pradel would not have been charged and with 99% certainty that Council Member Wehrli would have not been charged. This is called POLITICS!

So this is how it relates to Napergate. It is about establishment vs. anti-establishment. You have more rights in town if you are pro-establishment. The Napergate Man had no rights in town because he was anti-establishment. The establishment is trying to strip DF of all his rights and power because he is anti-establishment and refuses to fold as Rosonova has after initially being part of the Napergate Party.(or at least accepting their support and documented endorsements in full page ads)

DF poses a serious threat to the establishment. He was either the number 1 or 2 vote getter in the last election. Either he was 1 and Mayor Pradel was 2 or vice versa. If Mayor Pradel resigns, the next Mayor will be DF. THE ESTABLISHMENT IS WORRIED! They are not worried about him harmlessly touching a cop. Pul....lease..!!!

This is politics! All the way! No one thought when the Napergate Man discovered DF in the early 90s amongst his supporters of 3500 that he would reach this ICON STATUS. But he has reached it! The Napergate Man loved him because he is for fiscal responsibility just as he was! He was against corruption just as he was! He was anti-establishment as he was! He was for accountability to the taxpayer as he was! He was very principled as he was! He was his favorite candidate AND GAVE HIM HIS highest rankings in his election campaign ads.(All documented at the Naperville Sun and Nichlos Library. Maybe the moderator could post the ad in which Furtenau was given a 90% rating by the Napergate Man to show the historical connections and the roots of this long battle for the newcomers)

Yes, DF lost the 1995 elections despite a huge effort by the so called Napergatian Party. But they as well as many other groups thru out Naperville kept working hard for him until he was finally elected in 1999.

As the Napergate Man became influential with his powerful ads, the city attempted to destroy him. I think they would have succeeded if the courts did not step in. As DF has become influential, the city is attempting to destroy him also. The city could succeed but if he goes to the courts and wins as the Napergate Man did, the city will fail.

DF is not going to the courts for money. He is a principled man that does not care about money. He cares about his reputation, his political career and his constituents.

There are only 2 differences between the Napergate Man and DF. One is that the Napergate Man hates politics and would never seek public office. The other difference is the Napergate Man likes Mayor Pradel immensely! The reason being is the Mayor IS very principled and has treated him fairly as a Liquor Commissioner. The previous 3 Mayors in their capacities as Liquor Commissioners tried to railroad him out of town.

I do not think Mayor Pradel and the Napergate man see eye to eye on everything but there does not seem to be any animosity between them. They apparently get along fine. And of course the Napergate man admires DF's efforts in watching out for the taxpayers at all times.

I suspect if Mayor Pradel resigns one day and DF decides to run for Mayor against John Rosonova, the Napergate Man would probably resume his full page ads and support Furstenau for Mayor. And while DF has already established himself to beat any other candidate in a Mayoral race if Pradel resigns, the Napergate Man, his supporters and ads could give DF not only a victory but a landslide victory.

So this is the relation. The establishment of the PAST is fearing the FUTURE! The estbalishment is fearing Mayor Dick Furstenau before he is even Mayor. If the Napergate Man can get DF 4 other council members elected as he once actually did, Mayor Furstenau may change the way the city is run. It could become a Mayor run town instead of a City Manager run town. I personally would like to see that as I feel the Mayors are completely underappreciated and underpaid. As one blogger stated, it is ridiculous that a police officer can make 5 times what a Mayor makes. They are both public servants! Only in Naperville can such disparities exist!

So TB, this is the story behind the silly arrest. It is a deep story about POLITICS and actually has absolutely nothing to do with TOPUCHING. I just gave you a tiny tidbit. And yes, I know quite a bit and was one of the 3500 people who worked with the Napergate Man during election time to help get the Napergate Slate elected!

Most of us would rather stay retired. But unfortunately this vicious attack on DF has bothered us. I think the city is achieving the opposite of what it is intending in regards to DF. They are waking up his old supporters who were sleeping quietly. The more they battle DF, the more powerful he will become.....the more Napergate activists they will wake up!!!

Having said all this I feel that Mayor Pradel is a very principled man and can stop this battle if he does not let others influence him. He can be tough when he wants to be and I have faith in him that he will bring a reconciliation with DF before this escalates any further and the attorneys take us to the cleaners as they did in Napergate.

For the newcomers in town, Mayor Pradel had nothing to do with the Napergate battle. And it was NOT him who shredded all the legal records pertaining to the cost of the legal mess! It was most likely former Mayor Sam McCrane who ordered the shredding of the records. I think he is deceased now but he went on record and told the Naperville Sun they did not exist and if they did exist he would not provide them. So I think it is not far fetched to assume he ordered them shredded as no one has been able to get them for over a decade!

It is Mayor Pradel who somehow found a way to make a reconciliation with the Napergate Man when no one thought it was possible. I believe if he steps up to the plate he can make a reconciliation with DF and we can all move on to other subjects and be a happy family again.

Happy New Year to everyone and I hope we can Bury the Hatchet in 2008! Peace be upon you all!

Marshal-

I don't know Joe and don't agree with everything he has to say. I don't agree with 100% of what most people have posted, but I also know that not everyone will agree with 100% of what I post. However, I found it interesting that you characterized Joe as beating people up (true or not), but Marilyn and Ameena were just posting their own thoughts. Civility should apply to all, and not be selectively applied to Joe.

Also, I wanted to correct the impression you left that I "now" agree that the Napergate expenses should have been public. I did not in any way change my mind. I have always believed that all city government expenses should be public record. I just didn't respond to Ameena and Marilyn based on their personal attacks.

Other than that, Marshal, I agree with you. The civility issue needs to be discussed more often.

Joe,
I think as moderator Jim has said we need to tone it down a little.

I read your latest blog on the police. Again you did not show anywhere where Marilyn wants to get rid of cops. She just wants to reduce expenses as pertaining to the police dept. when possible. I think it is possible to reduce expenses in any city dept., corp. dept, or school if one tries.

And her and Mrs. Police Officer did have a minor heated exchange, but the last letter of each to the other was very nice and they just seemed to agree to disagree on some points and agreed on most points. I must say I loved Mrs. Police Officer's letter as it gave such a different perspective on how difficult and hectic a cop's life must be. I would have to say that was my favorite blog since I have been bloggin for 2 short weeks.

Their debate seemed to end on a happy note. You seem to want to instigate a fight between them by reposting the older blogs when they were arguing instead of the new blogs when they seemed to have made up and kissed.

I do not know if you do what you do intentionally or unintentionally. I think it is healthy to debate and you have some good points Joe. But the way you call bloggers out is just not the right way. No one can prove everything they write is true beyond a reasonable doubt. It takes a courtroom to get close to that level of proof.

So try to remember we are just blogging to exchange ideas and get smarter...not to beat each other up.

Marilyn and Ammena just seemed to post their own thoughts. They were not beating up on any blogger initially. Just giving their view I assume in hopes that someone in the city will read and address what they wrote.

They have nothing against you. But you succeeded somehow in antagonizing them. I say we keep it civil.

I enjoyed your last link to the police dept. numbers. I felt it was very infomative and I learned something from it. I appreciate that post.

But I learned nothing from your attack on Marilyn except that anyone with any level of mastery of the English language can make minced meat out of the English words as they have many meanings. That is why they must not take words and thoughts out of context.

And finally Joe, I have to commend you for sending an Olive Branch out to Marilyn by agreeing that the city should not have disposed of the legal costs of the Napergate battle but disclosed them to the public and taxpayers. I think that is something we all agree on now including you and T.B. which makes me feel this debate is turning healthy.

If you stop making minced meat out of people's words, I think you could become respected on these blogs one day. I think you have the ability and capability to do it if you so choose!

Marilyn,

Let's talk math:

You: "you can continue reaping a 100k in salary, benefits, and overtime at taxpayer expense" -- Dec 28, 1:47PM
and "So here is an example of paying 10 cops unnecessarily. Eliminate 10 cops including their benefits and overtime and you just saved a million dollars to TAXPAYERS." --(Dec 28, 4:12am)

Your 10 officers 'eliminated' / fired under what you said earlier using your own numbers = that MILLION dollars savings.

*THAT* is why I interpreted your statement to mean Firing them.

Now, if you simply meant 'eliminating' their overtime (and benefits) each weekend in Naperville during the summer time, I have this math to work with:

1,000,000 / 10 officers = $100,000 in Overtime/Benefits per officer each year (year since we're talking BUDGET items here which is PER YEAR).

Summer being May thru October (I'll even give you extra months here) = 6 months, 26 weeks (half a year) of 2, 8 hour shifts per officer (Friday and Saturday) for a total of 16 hours per week, 26 weeks = 416 hours of overtime per officer, again, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that ALL of their hours spent on that street corner are on full overtime pay.

To eat up $100,000K in overtime, we would have to pay them $240 / hour. DO WE?!?!?!?!?!?

THIS is why I do not believe you when you implied (later after being called out) that you simply meant to reduce the overtime of 10 officers during the summer to save the tax payers over $1,000,000.

Please post your math using your 10 officers and show how you save $1,000,000 in overtime for the budget year by keeping them on force and just reducing their overtime being stationed at W. Chicago and Washington, unnecessarily.

All this talk about Napergate, yet I still don't know how it relates to THIS case. OK, so there is an issue regarding the payments for the city defense. Fine, they should have been disclosed. Past that, I have no idea how it relates and DON'T CARE. Neither do the courts which will handle this case as a stand-alone issue.

Anonymous - I never said DF had to prove he didn't hit officer Hull. I've said all along that his case is about what lead up to the arrest (plus DF's allegations of retaliation), not what happened in court. It's the actions, legal or not, that got DF to court in the firts place that matter. The judge's decision is moot, though it would obviously have helped the city to have gotten a guilty verdict.

Randy - Just a thought, but not all attorneys take cases on a contingency that they are sure they will win. In fact, our illustrious past governor Ryan got a free $10 million defense based on the PR and new clients the case would bring to the law firm. It happens. For all we know, Collins was hoping for the quick settlement when he agreed to the contingency. The point is, speculation is nothing more than mere speculation.

Aw, Marilyn. That was very close to a compliment from you. Must be because its Sunday.

Marilyn, Ameena and now Jessica,

No semantics, no interpretations, just DIRECT QUOTES from MARILYN. Judge for yourself:

It is well known that you are a police officer on these blogs so thanks for your BIASED OPINION in order that you can continue reaping a 100k in salary, benefits, and overtime at taxpayer expense. And then you retire with 75% of your salary in pension form while the rest of us TAXPAYERS who do not work for government receive no pension after 30 years of service. After 45 years of service to our corps we are lucky to get a $100 dollar watch! Is that fair, Joe!
I wish Napergate was still around to expose all this waste of taxpayer money and inequities between TAXPAYERS and GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES.

Posted by: Marilyn | December 28, 2007 01:47 PM

(( Sounds like ANGER to me ))

Mrs. Police Officer,
You don't have to dare me. I already said more than once that 2 police officers and 10 private security guards on Chicago Avenue and Washington is more than adequate. I did not say for all of downtown Naperville. If a big fiaso develops which rarely happens, NPD officers know how to call for back-up. That is normal police procedure to keep expenses down as police can not be everywhere at all times. This could potentially save a million bucks. As a police officer you are biased and would like your overtime pay at the expense of the TAXPAYER.
Downtown Naperville is relatively safe whether there are a few cops roaming around or a dozen socializing on Chicago Ave. Bars in the winter are sometimes busier than on summer days. There does not seem to be a need for a POLICE ARMY on Chicago Ave in the winter....why the sudden need in the summer! If you ask me those 10 bike cops in the summer are a waste of money. Even if they saw an intoxicated driver, I am sure they will chase him down with their bikes...lol...
As far as your offer for a ride-along on a Friday or Saturday, I will pass up. I would rather be sitting on a bench on Chicago AVE, than stuck in one of those 6 police vehicles that are parked in the middle of Chicago Ave. and never seem to move or ever get called....a strong indication of over staffing!

Posted by: Marilyn | December 28, 2007 09:23 PM

Ameena, I already told you I wasn't paying attention to local politics back when Napergate was happening. I had my hands a bit full trying to get a public company ready for sale. I got involved locally around 2002 with TAB meetings regarding neighborhood issues and Council meetings regarding rezoning votes and publicly spoke at several said meetings. One noteworthy one was in 2003 where I was speaking out against Kevin Gallaher's traffic claims and how bunk they were with regards to the little volume a commercial piece was going to generate. Their studies were done over winter break (no school) and on a sunday (no commuter traffic). DF actually tried to tell me I couldn't know the traffic patterns in my neighborhood and he would trust the 'study' numbers and subsequently voted AYE for the approval. Fair enough, that's his position and call.

Jessica, Perhaps Marilyn just wants a REDUCED police force. It seems that even DF approved the numbers http://www.sterlingcodifiers.com/IL/Naperville/20000000000000115.htm

Chief 1
Captains 3
Lieutenants 9
Sergeants 26
Officers 150

Total 189

***

SECTION 2: This Ordinance shall be in full force and effect upon its passage and approval.

PASSED this 5th day of June , 2007.
AYES: PRADEL, BOYAJIAN, FIESELER, FURSTENAU, KRAUSE, MILLER, ROSANOVA, SENGER

NAYS:NONE

ABSENT:WEHRLI

APPROVED this 6th day of June , 2007.

Finally to Marilyn, For your satisfaction... No, it is not right of the city to hide expenses for anything from the public.

Sotos' comments are clearly an effort to keep DF's attorny from defining the facts of this case in the publics mind. It seems responsible to present the citys case strongly to keep or increase public pressure on DF to drop the case. If this works, it could actually reduce fees incured by the city. Probibly good strategy.

Joe,
I read your exchange with Marilyn. I simply can not believe how you attempted to distort everything she said. You reminded me of President Clinton when he was trying to re-define "IS" in his impeachment hearings.

Marilyn does not dislike cops. She does not want cops fired. She obviously wants to control overtime and waste! There are additional benefit costs that do go with overtime such as paying to protect the police man hours with Workmen's Compensation. So her wanting to reduce overtime and the additional costs/benefits that come with overtime does not translate into getting "RID" of cops.

And she never used the word "RID." You did! What a terrible word to use and then try to pin it on someone else!

And finally she complemented Mrs. Police Officer! Does not sound like she is a Cop Hater to me! Anyone else get the feeling that Marilyn hates cops and wants to get RID of them besides Mr. Joe!

More and more our beautiful Naperville is looking/sounding like Maltese Cicero. Mayor Pradel really needs to step up to the plate and stop being a nice guy all the time. Nice guys finish last! He needs to demand that Rosonova recuse himself on all issuses put to a vote handled by Brestal. I'd hate to see the Feds come in and begin indicting council members left and right. It has happened numerous times in other suburbs especially concerning issues of CONFLICTS OF INTEREST! Former Mayors and Police Chiefs in Melrose Park, Stone Park, and Cicero are living in 8 by 4 cells at this moment. And let us not forget the ACE in the HOLE payoff to an OAK BROOK TERRACE Council Member's son in an attempt to cover the conflict of interest payoff from a DEVELOPER! Beware Rosonava! It could easily happen to OUR OFFICIALS IF THEY DON'T MIND THEIR STEPS! The FEDS are not people our city council members want knocking on their doors at 7am in the morning!
Posted by: Marilyn | December 29, 2007 04:07 PM

Marilyn,
Your above post in regards to Brestal's law firm hiring Rosonova's son is on TARGET. I have to agree with you that something sounds fishy. He was supported by Napergatians, endorsed by Napergate, and promoted to office by Napergate ADS whose platform was notoriously anti-Brestal.
Suddenly his son is hired by the notorious Brestal Law Firm and he switches sides to the OLD ESTABLISHMENT. Does this councilman have a conscience or is he controlled by purse strings? Is he representing us taxpayers or the law firm that gainfully employs his son? Which is it!

We do need to have an internal investigation before the Feds come. That is all we need right now! The Feds coming means we need 10 million dollars to hire many more Chicago Law firms. I agree with you that Mayor Pradel needs to demand that Rosonova MUST recuse himself on any project brought before the City Council by the Brestal Law Firm. This is really a major conflict of interest.

I am a little surprised that Mayor Pradel is not getting better advice from in-house legal staff. I certainly hope Mayor Pradel who I agree is a good man, does something soon to protect himself, his city and his citizens from this Rosonova/Brestal dangerously flamable connection.

It is really shameful that Brestal would hire a councilman's son to influence decisions on development projects. The Napergate Man just seemed to be way ahead of us in figuring things out. As so many bloggers have indicated before me the correlations to Napergate is astounding. History seems very well equipped to shed some light as to what is occuring in our city presently.

It just seems to me, a long term subsciber to the Naperville Sun, that as soon as the Napergate Man stopped running his ads and providing the Watch Dog mechanism he was noted for, the City returned to Business as Usual!

Count me in on agreeing w/ Michele. The City Attorney and Council need to just shut up about the whole thing, lest they become that which DF is accusing them of (by being baited in to make it appear like everyone is now out to get DF and add some post-validity to the 'conspiracy' rhetoric). The proverbial "See, I told you they were out to get me!" garbage.

Only Sotos wins by keeping the fight hostile... if he tones down the rhetoric and works toward a settlement, Sotos is the only one that will lose. His worst nightmare is a friendly settlement.He's seeing dollar signs, siphoned right out of the taxpayer's wallet into his own.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Michele B,
This is exactly what is happening. And what bothers me is our city officials can't see thru this or learn from a past case. In Napergate, they hired 2 outside powerful Chicago legal firms who really escalated the battle to the nth degree for their own benefit over an individual wanting nothing more than a 2nd liquor license he was entitled to and qualified for, as court verdicts would later reveal.

At the time Napergate ads, which always had a tip line phone number posted, were able to get a source in the city to leak the increase of the internal legal dept. expenses. I believe it skyrocketed from 250k to almost 900k annually according to graphs charted by Napergate ads apparently obtained from data provided by a disgruntled city employee. So there was an annual internal legal department increase of nearly 650k mostly because of Napergate. There were no other MAJOR legal cases pending at the time. To this day, no one has been able to get an answer as to what the 2 outside Chicago law firms charged for the battle. Most likely by now 10 years later, the City of Naperville probably shredded the numbers so we will never know. Such accoutability to the TAXPAYERS by such a great CITY to LIVE in!

I think with so many taxpayers having long memories and onto the City Officials this time, they most likely will not shred the evidence again. Or at least let us hope NOT! Who knows in 10 years when the DF battle is not on the front pages, if they may attempt to try it again.

Who wants to reveal to taxpayers we paid lawyers 5 million over 10 years to fight a case we could have settled for pennies on the dollar especially if the case is lost? It is so embarrassing I can see why the outside Napergate legal costs disappeared from the face of the earth with NO TRACE. Some very good city accountants may have been misappropriating numbers in wrong depts. to cover that huge legal expense. We know those attorneys were not working on CONTINGENCY!!! That is for sure!!!

DF only asked for $129,529.10. The city should have made a counter offer to settle for half that amount or $65,000. He obviously had some kind of case or no attorney would take it for a contingency. When an attorney takes it for a contingency, that means he is highly certain he will win or why would he waste his time working for free. DF's attorney is sacrificing possibly 300 dollars per hour to work on DF's case free. That speaks volumes in his belief of a positive verdict for DF!

So instead of settling for $65k and telling the taxpayers we did it because it was much less expensive to settle than litigate, the city chose to call in the powerful law firms.
Most people would be happy to hear the city settled for a relatively small amount instead of pursing their EGOS at any COST. (As happened in the NAPERGATE CASE)

In the Napergate case the city could have settled for a liquor license that would actually generate tens of thousands per year for the city budget. But their EGOS made them hire 2 high powered Chicago Law firms to assist a sizeable in-house staff to fight a small time liquor store retailer. The rest is shredded history.

Please, we don't want a REPEAT!

To T.B. & John Q.,

I repeat what I posted erlier:
"For the civil case, DF does NOT have to prove he didn't hit Officer Hull--- that has already been done for him in the criminal case! In short, he does NOT have to prove a negative. His case will be based on two issues, I suspect: false arrest (knowingly), and retaliation.

IMHO, the criminal case data would appear to hand DF the first issue (right or wrong --- I am NOT commenting on what happened, only on what the results of that case will mean to the civil case). The second was a much tougher sell BEFORE the Council went ahead with a censure (and the little Mayor's move of NOT letting DF speak on his own behalf was an especially arrogant move)."

Your reference to OJ actually works in the reverse in this case --- think of it from the victim's side, as that is where DF stands.

JOE,
What I find curious about you is you know everything about anything including every street corner in Chicagoland and police staffing on each one of those corners.

Yet, you claim to have lived in Naperville during the Napergate Era and somehow admitted knowing little to nothing about Napergate. Yet, you seem to be an expert on any other topic concerning the City.

I think you are clever in some weird way. You know there is no defense to Napergate since the courts already ruled. You know it is a BLACK EYE for the city. So you deal with it by pretending you know nothing about it despite being a resident at the time. YOU SIMPLY PLEAD IGNORANCE!

Anyway, it just seems very odd to me that a person who knows everything about anything could have 0 knowledge on issues that his buddies in the city screwed up pretty bad.

I have this eerie feeling 10 years from now after DF already had won his case as the Napergate Man did, you will be telling bloggers, you never heard of DF. Who is he? I have no knowledge of DF! Very clever Joe! It is nice to call you out early....

Ameena

Semantics Joe,
I think what I wrote is clear. Anyone can see you are an acrobatic semanticist. You delete words, add words, change words, invent words, twist words, turn words and try to allege someone is inconsistant.

Sorry Joe, but people have figured you out and CALLED YOU OUT.

At least TB indirectly admitted that the City of Naperville was wrong in refusing to disclose the costs of the lengthy legal Napergate battle to the taxpayers. He actually gave some hope that he can be debated.

I wonder if Joe can follow suit and admit that the City of Naperville was wrong in not disclosing the costs of 10 year legal Napergate battle. Even indirectly would be OK coming from you, Joe.

Michele B. raises some interesting points - sometimes silence is golden and attorneys are better off keeping their powder dry until they get into the court room. I don't see Sotos' comments as an attempt to line his own pockets but more bad strategy on his part and, probably, his city masters who felt they couldn't sit idly by in silence after Furstenau chose to speak out to the public. I wonder if they're now thinking twice over whether the censure was a wise move.

Sotos is brilliant. Instead of advising the City to take the high road and tone down the rheteric - he get's a frontpage quote that "Furstenau is a schoolyard bully."

Who could possibly win from this type of behavior?

Only Sotos wins by keeping the fight hostile... if he tones down the rhetoric and works toward a settlement, Sotos is the only one that will lose. His worst nightmare is a friendly settlement.He's seeing dollar signs, siphoned right out of the taxpayer's wallet into his own.

CITY COUNCIL - STOP ACTING LIKE THE SNOT-NOSED WHIMP THAT BEAT UP BY THE BULLY. Control your attorney - he's embarrassing. He's hurting the City's reputation. He's making city council look foolish. He's not hurting furstenau. In fact, the more City Hall goes after Furstenau, the more people realize that this is all about politics - nothing else.

MAYOR PRADEY - STAND UP AND GROW A PAIR. Do you actually need a hired mouth to speak for you? Mayor, think of the town you claim to so dearly love. Don't let your political issues with Furstenau damage the city any further. The public votes you in because they like you. The public votes Furstenau in because the like having the opposition to the City's good old boy spending machine. Get used to it Furstenau's not going anywhere.

Robert - I merely pointed out thet the way Sotos worded the statement it did not necesarily seem to indicate the cost he mentioned were solely the city's. Yes, Collins is on a commission basis (I think the word you were looking for was contingency), and Collins only gets paid if DF wins. Does Sotos mean the city will pay millions in legal fees, or both combined (assuming a DF win). From his statement, I don't know. However, I have been consistent in stating that the $400K the city has set aside will not be enough. Is that a better explanation for you? I think Best Buy has a sale on keyboards, in case yours broke.

Marilyn - I don't think I have anything to prove to you or Ameena. And I actually don't know how I would "prove my manhood" in this blog and not be censured by the good Mr Lynch (no offense, Jim). My reason for not responding to the "challenge" as you called it was that I didn't think it was worth my time to respond to that kind of garbage, plus I would like to discuss the issue at hand and not re-hash some old issue some people obviously have an axe to grind about.

If you would like to have an intelligent exchange of ideas free from name calling, then do so. If you want to continue to attack people, I feel no need to respond in any way. I have better things to do.

For the record, I believe that legal costs incurred by the city for any reason should be public record. Happy now?

Some guy in Naperville is having angry fits, pouts and tantrums and wants to sue for being stopped. Everywhere I look, I see "the F name". I immediately turn off and turn the page. I know all I need to know. Now THIS is the most over reported story in a suburban newspaper!

taxpayer, why are so adamantly behind DICK ? what is in it for you ? you have read the 5 million dollar statement ? so any of this taxpayers friend hogwash is over with. you DO know that he has NO authority whatsoever to even address a city employee regarding their job. and you can't possibly believe in a conspiracy, could you ??? were you at one time wronged by the city plow drivers ? were you once denied a request for your home addition variance where your planned shrine to DICK f. had to be put on hold, until DICK becomes mayor ? do you not like peter burchard's hair-do ? there must be a good reason to be so completely wrong ?

Joe,
I support the city's position in their response to Furstenau's demands.

SW Taxpayer,

I know this is an oversimplification, but hear me out because this is what it sounds like from the cheap seats after talking with many who are also following this embarrassing saga:

My attorney says I should 'feel' that my civil rights were violated.
My attorney earlier advised me to sign away my civil right to a trial by Jury, and that was somehow "OK" because it increased my chances of winning my case(25 cases, hadn't lost one) and I did it. We won!
I feel now that MONEY can help me get past the feeling of my Civil Rights being violated and everything will be honkey dorey ("fair and just", to be exact).
Any employees of the city who "feel" I was not kind to them over the years should just suck it up and get over it because I did nothing wrong.

This is the perception put forth and this is why many people want to see him have some dignity and respect for the city he's supposed to serve and just step away from the table and retain some honor.

IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT, YOU DON'T NEED TO GO TO THE LIBRARY TO INVESTIGATE NAPERGATE, POLICE SPENDING, OR CITY HALL CORRUPTION. HERE ARE THE FACTS:

"This is the letter Naperville Councilman Richard Furstenau wrote to City Manager Peter Burchard. It is dated Aug. 24 but was not made public until Friday (Sept. 14):

Dear Peter,

Approximately three months have passed since the verdict of not guilty was returned regarding the charges that were pressed against me by the Naperville City Police Department. The entire epic of false charges and innuendo concerning the alleged altercation with Officer (Mike) Hull lasted an entire year and seven months. My family and I have suffered greatly because some Naperville Police Department employees decided it would be a good idea to falsely accuse me of wrongdoing. The incident not only tarnished my good name, which took decades to build, but also caused daily anguish and embarrassment to my family, particularly to my wife. Legal counsel has advised me that my civil rights have been violated.

Since the demand for disciplining Officer Hull and others in the chain of command for the disruption in my life was utterly disregarded, I feel that I have no other choice than to take the following course of action. I am seeking reimbursement for my incurred expenses as well as compensation for time that was personally put forth in this ordeal. I feel justified in seeking compensation for not only personal dollars that I committed to my campaign for state Senate, but also for the dollars from supporters and well-wishers who thought I would do an excellent job in Springfield representing our state Senate district. The sad truth is that these false charges ruined my chances to win that election.

I am making this request after much consideration and do not make this request lightly. This request is my hope to end this matter as amicably as possible and put it behind both me and the city. However, please understand that if we cannot resolve this here, and if the city will not acknowledge its mistake, then I will ask a federal court to confirm the city's mistake.

Although my request may replace the dollars I and others have spent on my state Senate campaign, it will in no way bring back the unblemished reputation I had prior to the false allegations and scurrilous charges placed upon me due to the lack of leadership in the Naperville Police Department. In view of this, I am seeking the following compensations from the city of Naperville. I would consider the following fair and just and would thus forgo all further legal options:

A. First and foremost, I want the city to apologize to me and my family. The city's prosecution of me should never have happened and my family and I should never have been put through this ordeal.

B. Compensation for all state Senate campaign contributions: $66,279.10 (to be returned to all donors).

C. Compensation for personal contributions: $47,000 (the amounts of line items B and C can be verified online by viewing the D-2s filed with the state of Illinois).

D. Compensation for time and effort in dealing with this aberration to my life: $10,000.

E. Compensation for all legal expenses: $6,250.

Total amount sought: $129,529.10.

I am requesting a written response no later than 4 p.m. Friday, Sept. 21, 2007; otherwise I will be forced to proceed with other action.

Respectfully,

Richard Furstenau

This is the statement released by Burchard in response to Furstenau's letter. It is dated Sept. 7 but was not released until Friday:

City Manager Peter Burchard has confirmed today that the city of Naperville has received a letter from Naperville Councilman Richard Furstenau in which he alleges that his civil rights were violated when he was arrested for battery in January 2006. According to city attorney Margo Ely, Furstenau's arrest was based on probable cause and there was no civil rights violation. The city will vigorously defend any lawsuit that may be brought, according to Burchard."

Published in the Daily Herald Sept. 15, 2007

leibert

my confidence in furstenau isn't shaken one bit. not even a little. i was only using the word IF to get people like joe who are against him to consider what it means if furstenau is right. they are jumping all over him because of the cost to taxpayers and they say he is whining and not accepting responsibility. i just asked them to consider that we don't know all the facts and, in the end, furstenau may be right and prove his whole case. i was just asking them to consider for a minute the ramifications if furstenau wins and is right all along.

about repeating myself over and over, i agree. i was repeating myself over and over so much i was making myself sick while writing. i nearly hurled several times. unfortunately, i had to because joe and some others had an incredibly difficult time understanding what it meant when i used the word IF. their responses made no sense and they asked questions that were off base from what i said, so i had to restate it in a way that the less mentally gifted joe and tb could follow.

im glad its over anyway. i won't be responding to joe anymore. my faith in furstenau is 100% that he is going to win this case, vindicate himself and make a lot of city employees look stupid and expose corruption.

Marilyn,

You are now saying 2 entirely different things and you can not have it both ways.

ELIMINATING 10 officers, *AND* their BENEFITS *AND* their OVERTIME to save the TAXPAYERS millions can only happen by firing them.

This is what you wrote.

If we hire more, you have not ELIMINATED benefits you have ADDED them. You may eliminate overtime, but 10 cops don't bank up over a MILLION dollars in OVERTIME pay; which is what you said you wanted to ELIMINATE (a million dollars in taxpayer expenses).

The only act that fits what you wrote is to get rid of 10 cops (fire them). That eliminates salary, benefits and overtime for them and 'saves' over a million in taxpayer dollars.

You've been called out and you spend more HUGE posts trying to weasel out of what you wrote.

Everyone else read it, and everyone else sees what you posted, your disdain for the police department and your disgust for the downtown night life for what it is.

Mrs. Police Officer,

I very much respect your last and long blog (December 28, 2007 10:36 PM) addressed to me. It is really a breath of fresh air to have you bring an original and different perspective to the table. You really help one understand how difficult it is to be a police officer.

Well I don't agree with everything you stated(I agree with most of what you said) but more importantly you were so respectful and enlightening in presenting your opinion.

I wish everyone was like you! If only Joe and T.B. can learn something from you.

Sorry, I was so late in responding to you, but I got carried away in responding to the likes of Joe who I should not be responding to in the first place.

I believe this challenge was issued to you T.B.

"If you are half the man or woman you pretend to be, you would CONDEMN the City of Naperville for losing, disposing, or hiding the legal cost records in the Napergate Case to hide the information we were seeking then and seeking now. Show us your Manhood or Womanhood instead of your ignorant BIAS!"

I would like to see your response to her CHALLENGE. I think her challenge will indicate if you are a blanket supporter of the city at all times and under all circumstances or if you are willing to condemn the city when it is DEFINETLY WRONG!

Marybeth

And to those complaining about the potential cost of litigation - I think you need to relax a bit. You know, lay off the exclamation point on your keyboard before it breaks. What Sotos said was he and Collins agree the litigation could cost more than a million, not necesarily that it would cost one side a million. Don't get me wrong.

==================================================================

This TB post is all wrong! Shows lack of knowledge! Collins is representing DF on a commission basis. Thus he will not cost DF or the taxpayers a penny for his legal fees. The only millions we are talking about is the millions the city needs to defend itself that will come out of the taxpayers purses. Unfortunately, it is all coming out of one side and not 2 sides as TB would like you to believe!!! Had to throw in some exclamation points for emphasis at the expense of breaking my keyboard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh Marilyn, If only what you wrote was correct.

What you said was:

"I live in the downtown area and I see an excessive police presence in the downtown area especially on Friday and Saturday. Sometimes you can see a dozen cops just W. of Washington on Chicago Ave. For the most part doing nothing but observing! There is really no need for all these cops as there is rarely an altercation. And if there is one, I am sure 2 cops can handle it assisted by security guards or doormen at the clubs until back up shows up if needed on a rare occasion. So here is an example of paying 10 cops unnecessarily. Eliminate 10 cops including their benefits and overtime and you just saved a million dollars to TAXPAYERS."
--Posted by: Marilyn | December 28, 2007 04:12 AM
******************************************************************
Joe,
You posted the above paragraph to try to state I am calling for the firing of cops. You deliberately deleted the previous paragrah where I called for the additional hiring of cops to stop overtime. Here it is:

"When police have as much "legitimate" overtime as Furstenau is alleging, one solution would be to retain more officers to avoid overtime. It is alleged that 50% of the top paid city employees are cops. This raises concerns for me and all taxpayers."

Posted by: Marilyn | December 28, 2007 04:12 AM
******************************************************************

So as you see Joe by taking paragraphs out of context in the same exact post that is time and dated, you attempted to try to prove I was asking for POLICE TO BE FIRED when I was in fact asking for POLICE TO BE HIRED so we can cut down on OVERTIME!!

I am sorry to my fellow blogger that I have to dwell on this but I think it is important for all of us to know how Joe operates and to CALL HIM immediately on his repetitious lies. Maybe shaming him will quiet him down! I am still hoping the moderator will take some action as his blogs are full of lies and distortions...very provable as in this case.

I have observed heavily and I stand by my assertion one cop car there with 2 officers is enough assisted by outside private security and doorman paid by the bar owners. If private security is so terrible why does the City use it or require it to support the police during Ribfest and the Last Fling. They do a great job at a much cheaper price. NO ONE IS SAYING WE NEED TO FIRE COPS! We are saying we need to stop the ridiculous overtime by using private security to supplemant the cops.

Posted by: Marilyn | December 28, 2007 09:23 PM
*****************************************************************
Joe,
Just to show you how you lie, this post was posted at the time indicated yesterday, and if you look at the CAPITALIZED portion, it indicates I am not for FIRING COPS as you state falsely in your latest blog. So your telling the bloggers I implied I want to fire cops is blatantly false. You clearly twisted my words and took my blog out of context to make your false accusation!

I have to say more than anyone else you antagonize and turn up the heat on these blogs with your lies. I think Moderator Jim has to ask you to stop lying. I provided him with proof! I hope and expect him to ask you to stop LYING. Lying does cause the blogging to get supercharged and overheated. Taxpayer deserved his scolding by the Moderator! But don't you think Joe needs a warning of sorts! Please be fair, Mr. Moderator! Joe, is a completely out of control instigator and trouble maker...he thrives on what he does.

What is ironic about all this is he is so upset about DF for calling our officials out to explain their high expenditures. But than he tells Marshall on these blogs that all he is doing is calling the bloggers out to explain their positions.

I wish Joe was just calling people out. What he does is he twists and turns what they say and than calls them out to explain what they never said. Sorry, Joe but you have been EXPOSED and BUSTED for the UMPTEENTH TIME. Please stop what you are doing...it is silly and stupid!!! The only person you need to CALL OUT is YOURSELF!

IF he is successful proving his case and winning, it will expose corruption along the way and those individuals will likely be accountable. if everything furstenau says is true, then he is doing us a favor standing up to corrupt people who have abusing their power. if everything he says is false then he is being ridiculous and frivolously costing the taxpayers money. we will see which one it is in the end.(Quote from TAXPAYER)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Taxpayer,
I think you are letting Joe erode your confidence in DF. You are suddenly doing a lot of doubting and using words like IF corruption exists.

Of course corruption exists in City Hall. Were you not around in the Napergate Days?? Maybe not! Have you never read a Napergate Ad? Have you not read the blog about Sun Editor Tim West wanting legal costs for a 10 year battle with the Napergate Man and the city saying they don't have them. To spend millions of taxpayer money on a legal case and say you did not track the expenses and can't ACCOUNT for them is CORRUPTION! Taxpayer money is sacred and should always be accounted for...if not you have CORRUPTION!

I would have to guess you know DF. Why don't you have a chat with him about all that corruption proven in the Napergate Days? Based on what bloggers have been writing DF was definetly some kind of leader in that movement. If he was not why would they endorse him for council member AT LEAST twice and give him the highest rating of all candidates. Instead of constantly talking in this IF and OR craziness, have a chat with your friend, DF. He will document corruption for you all over City Hall. This is not a new phenomenen that needs to come out in a Federal Court. It was proven in the 10 year Napergate Saga. Have more confidence in DF and what he is doing! Don't have your faith in him shaken because of a few bloggers who are hammering away at you!

I think you need to do some reasearch in the libraries and courthouses as a few bloggers have already done so you can have more confidence in DF and what you are saying. The Napergatians, his neighbors, his friends, his family and his nearly 10,000 voters seem to have unshaken confidence in him. Why don't you? You seem very shaky...please toughen up without getting emotional and upsetting the MODERATOR!

It is ludicrous that you think City Corruption will be proven in this case of a cop and DF touching or not touching each other. City Official Corruption is proven by facts and documents showing the corruption. I recall an example where the Napergate Man printed copies of multiple checks from the same person to former Mayor Sam McCrane to circumvent limits of campaign contribution per person. It was simple! One ad with copies of checks back and front and the case was signed sealed and delivered. No need for a 3 million trial! Just a 500 or 600 dollar full page ad to show the taxpayers and in the next election the TAXPAYERS do what they have to do at the POLLS. And for those who need proof of these multiple checks all you need to do is go to the the Moderator's NAPERGATE Post which will lead you to GOLFGATE : THE DARKER SIDE. I recall it being in that ad....maybe the former Mayor was taking these multiple checks on a Golf Course. Maybe Ameena can refresh our memories since she checked out the full page ads in the library. I can't recall any specifics from that long ago but I recall checks were shown in that ad.

These are the kind of documents and proof needed to prove CORRUPTION! Not blogging all day! Recalls are ridiculous and expensive! Just vote the culprits out of office in the next election! No additional expense here compared to an expensive unscheduled RECALL at taxpayers expense!

It was so simple in those days. Why are bloggers making everything so complicated with so much speculation? No one wants to get off their computer and dig up some information at City Hall with a FREEDOM OF INFORMATION 10 DAY NOTICE! All you guys do is attack each other and have the moderator scolding you on occasion. If you would spend 1% of your blog time digging up information you could all do what the Napergate Man did in exposing corruption.

Sadly, but the only one who has presented anything of substance is the Sun Moderater when he posted all those Napegate ads and laid the foundation for the corruption investigation. Some ladies on this blog have apparently taken info from the Napergate blog and built the foundation a little higher. Documenting all that corruption of the past by posting those Napergate ads has laid a solid foundation for DF. With so many of these city officials still working from those days, the moderator handed DF a major assist. DF and his supporters must now go out and do the rest. Tie the past to the present! Make a connection...dot the i's and cross the t's as they say!

Stop wasting time on Joe and go get some facts and documents if you really want to help DF. Time to move forward instead of in circles. When reading your numerous posts TAXPAYER you seem to be saying the same thing over and over again and circling back to the same topic after you covered it. I am sorry but you have my head spinning with your MASSIVE SENSELESS REPITION!

IF he is successful proving his case and winning, it will expose corruption along the way and those individuals will likely be accountable. if everything furstenau says is true, then he is doing us a favor standing up to corrupt people who have abusing their power. if everything he says is false then he is being ridiculous and frivolously costing the taxpayers money. we will see which one it is in the end.(Quote from TAXPAYER)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Taxpayer,
I think you are letting Joe erode your confidence in DF. You are suddenly doing a lot of doubting and using words like IF corruption exists.

Of course corruption exists in City Hall. Were you not around in the Napergate Days?? Maybe not! Have you never read a Napergate Ad? Have you not read the blog about Sun Editor Tim West wanting legal costs for a 10 year battle with the Napergate Man and the city saying they don't have them. To spend millions of taxpayer money on a legal case and say you did not track the expenses and can't ACCOUNT for them is CORRUPTION! Taxpayer money is sacred and should always be accounted for...if not you have CORRUPTION!

I would have to guess you know DF. Why don't you have a chat with him about all that corruption proven in the Napergate Days? Based on what bloggers have been writing DF was definetly some kind of leader in that movement. If he was not why would they endorse him for council member AT LEAST twice and give him the highest rating of all candidates. Instead of constantly talking in this IF and OR craziness, have a chat with your friend, DF. He will document corruption for you all over City Hall. This is not a new phenomenen that needs to come out in a Federal Court. It was proven in the 10 year Napergate Saga. Have more confidence in DF and what he is doing! Don't have your faith in him shaken because of a few bloggers who are hammering away at you!

I think you need to do some reasearch in the libraries and courthouses as a few bloggers have already done so you can have more confidence in DF and what you are saying. The Napergatians, his neighbors, his friends, his family and his nearly 10,000 voters seem to have unshaken confidence in him. Why don't you? You seem very shaky...please toughen up without getting emotional and upsetting the MODERATOR!

It is ludicrous that you think City Corruption will be proven in this case of a cop and DF touching or not touching each other. City Official Corruption is proven by facts and documents showing the corruption. I recall an example where the Napergate Man printed copies of multiple checks from the same person to former Mayor Sam McCrane to circumvent limits of campaign contribution per person. It was simple! One ad with copies of checks back and front and the case was signed sealed and delivered. No need for a 3 million trial! Just a 500 or 600 dollar full page ad to show the taxpayers and in the next election the TAXPAYERS do what they have to do at the POLLS. And for those who need proof of these multiple checks all you need to do is go to the the Moderator's NAPERGATE Post which will lead you to GOLFGATE : THE DARKER SIDE. I recall it being in that ad....maybe the former Mayor was taking these multiple checks on a Golf Course. Maybe Ameena can refresh our memories since she checked out the full page ads in the library. I can't recall any specifics from that long ago but I recall checks were shown in that ad.

These are the kind of documents and proof needed to prove CORRUPTION! Not blogging all day! Recalls are ridiculous and expensive! Just vote the culprits out of office in the next election! No additional expense here compared to an expensive unscheduled RECALL at taxpayers expense!

It was so simple in those days. Why are bloggers making everything so complicated with so much speculation? No one wants to get off their computer and dig up some information at City Hall with a FREEDOM OF INFORMATION 10 DAY NOTICE! All you guys do is attack each other and have the moderator scolding you on occasion. If you would spend 1% of your blog time digging up information you could all do what the Napergate Man did in exposing corruption.

Sadly, but the only one who has presented anything of substance is the Sun Moderater when he posted all those Napegate ads and laid the foundation for the corruption investigation. Some ladies on this blog have apparently taken info from the Napergate blog and built the foundation a little higher. Documenting all that corruption of the past by posting those Napergate ads has laid a solid foundation for DF. With so many of these city officials still working from those days, the moderator handed DF a major assist. DF and his supporters must now go out and do the rest. Tie the past to the present! Make a connection...dot the i's and cross the t's as they say!

Stop wasting time on Joe and go get some facts and documents if you really want to help DF. Time to move forward instead of in circles. When reading your numerous posts TAXPAYER you seem to be saying the same thing over and over again and circling back to the same topic after you covered it. I am sorry but you have my head spinning with your MASSIVE SENSELESS REPITION!

Joe,
You are a semantics trouble maker. Eliminating 10 cops on Friday and Saturday from one intersection does not mean firing them. Since this only occurs twice a week, these are most likely not shift cops doing their weekly duties. These are most likely cops working irregular hours getting paid overtime. This is part of what is causing the 5-7 million dollars of overtime that TAXPAYER has been reporting.

I am not one who enjoys firing anyone...especially when it is not their fault. But once we tighten up instead of firing cops we can not hire new ones if we ever reach the point where we have excessive cops after eliminating overtime. It is highly doubtful my measures or any measures will result in the termination of one single cop. But I believe it can result in a substantial reduction of overtime to the tune of millions!

You know exactly what I meant Joe but again you like to read a different meaning in what one is clearly trying to say.

And again I never said a word about 2 cops in all of downtown. I said 2 cops per BUSY INTERSECTION is plenty of cops. I said and repeat that 12 cops on any one intersection is a ridiculous waste of taxpayer money.

I have seen these cops over and over again parked in the middle of Chicago Ave blocking the left turn lane completely and in essence causing traffic congestion and hazards by eliminating a very important lane that city engineers felt was important to have or else it would not be there. Yes, occassionally one or two cops have been called away. But that seems rare and it still leaves 10. So why do we need 12 on that one intersection.

And most of the times they are called away they go to the intersection of Washington and Jackson just one block North. So if we had a cop car there between Potters, Twenty Nine, Rizzo and Quigleys it would be more efficient than having them all socializing and playing with their police dogs on Chicago Ave.

I am sure if Chief Dial and Mayor Pradel were up at those late hours, they would ask the police to spread around the downtown instead of all socializing in one location.

I have a little knowledge regarding downtown. You seem to know every intersection in the Chicagland area from the South Side to Woodfield Mall. How could you know everything and be everywhere...you can't? So stop pretending you know so much when it is obvious you know so little.

My intentions are good. They are to spread the police to give us better protection. They are to elminate unnecessary overtime caused by a dozen police on the same intersection. It is to get bar owners to pick up a larger share of the tab for the problems they cause.

This 1% bar and restaurant tax people talk about is insignigicant and can do very little. If you go on the high side and estimate 2000 patrons in downtown spending 20 bucks each(4 drinks is legally drunk and no one should drink more than that and have his judgment impaired) that is $40,000 dollars X .01 which is $400 dollars. At cop overtime pay at about $50 bucks per hour all these bars are contributing to cost of one cop shift on Fridays and Saturdays. That is the simple math, Joe!!

And so many bloggers are saying these bars with this lousy 1% are paying for the parking garages, the Carillion, and so much else is such hogwash and hoopla. The residential homeowners are subsidizing downtown Naperville. And I am sorry, Mr. Moderator, but when some blogger tells me it is more important that the city cut my Christmas Tree and leaf pickup, I can not help but being mildly upset.

I am not taking my Christmas Tree to some landfill on my back in order to continue subsidizing bar owners who claim to make 80k on just their patios on each weekend. That statement was made in Council Chambers and over 150 people were reported to be there and heard it. I personally did not hear it but I believe my reliable sources.

A special 10% tax on bar owners downtown would begin to help pay for all this extra security needed if the city insists on having it. And I still question why this POLICE ARMY is needed. But at least 10% will pay for the 10 EXCESSIVE cops instead of the 1% that pays for ONLY ONE COP! And as a homeowners, I won't feel like I am subdizing wealthy bar owners and their security needs.

There are all kind of bars on Rt 59 with no cops cars, bike cops, foot cops or motorcycle cops outside their premises by the mall in both Aurora and Naperville. There are 3 bars in one plaza on Rt. 59 in Naperville with no cop cars stationed in the parking lot. Why is the risk in that plaza any less than in downtown Naperville from patrons??? Their bars are packed on Friday and Saturday with easily over 500 people. Not one cop car is stationed there. Police cars roam there once in a while but private security and bouncers get the job done. And the plaza and surrounding areas seem to be very safe with little to no police presence.

I think I just provided the proof that this EXCESSIVE cop presence on Chicago Ave is unnecessary and more for socialization purposes than for security. It is an ABSOLUTE waste of taxpayer money. (Watch Joe come with something like downtown drinkers drink more than plaza bar drinkers...who knows with this guy what he would come up just to ARGUE!)

And if I am wrong and 12 cops are needed to provide security for the 3 or 4 bars on Chicago Ave./ Washington intersection than 12 cops are needed for the 3 bars in the Rt. 59 shopping center that I am positive is in Naperville and not Aurora.

Something is wrong here! The city is giving preferential treatment to one part of town over another part of town.

Either an excessive police force is needed across the board in all areas of Naperville that have bars or it is NOT needed across the board in all areas that have bars. Which is it Police Chief Joe?

You probably are so busy checking intersections on the South Side of Chicago and in Woodfield, you may be clueless to what plaza I am referring to.

In summary Joe, eliminating 10 out of 12 cops on one intersection on Friday and Saturday does not translate into FIRING 10 cops. It means eliminating those cops for those hours on that one intersection. And since we have 5-7 million in overtime pay, anyone can do the match and figure out we are eliminating overtime pay and not firing cops. Most insurance companies charge Workman Compensation fees based on number of hours of employee work. So you will be eliminating/reducing benefits for Workman's Compensation which also does not translate to FIRING cops. It translates to saving tons of money for the TAXPAYERS!

taxpayer man, you have missed the point yet again. DICK as will always refer to him, as i am in the third grade. did NOT just tell a few employee's to "shape up or ship out." first of all he has NO RIGHT to even talk to a city employee ! he is NOT their boss. he thinks he is, he wished he is, and maybe you do too ? but, he is NOT !!! and secondly, he did NOT just tell them to shape up or ship out. he THREATENED their jobs, created a HOSTILE workplace, made sexist remarks and quite possibly will be sued for some of his actions. the role of a councilman does NOT include procuring permits for peoples circular driveways, as DICK has proudly stated. now i assume you are a DICK supporter, and you have that right, but please be informed. i urge all my brothers, BOMBARD DICK'S EMAIL !!! furstenaur@naperville.il.us 5 MILLION DOLLARS AT STAKE !!!!

Oh Marilyn, If only what you wrote was correct.

What you said was:

"I live in the downtown area and I see an excessive police presence in the downtown area especially on Friday and Saturday. Sometimes you can see a dozen cops just W. of Washington on Chicago Ave. For the most part doing nothing but observing! There is really no need for all these cops as there is rarely an altercation. And if there is one, I am sure 2 cops can handle it assisted by security guards or doormen at the clubs until back up shows up if needed on a rare occasion. So here is an example of paying 10 cops unnecessarily. Eliminate 10 cops including their benefits and overtime and you just saved a million dollars to TAXPAYERS."
--Posted by: Marilyn | December 28, 2007 04:12 AM

What you meant, due to what you wrote that I bolded for you, is to FIRE 10 police officers. You claim 2 can do the work of 12 because you would eliminate 10 of them *AND* their benefits and overtime pay.

I'm afraid it is you who is trying to twist things. You want 10 fired when you see 12 cops. Unless you really didn't mean that and now want to re-explain yourself and what you really meant by that statement.

To Taxpayer and others: It's quite obvious the rhetoric on this thread is becoming supercharged and overheated. I think everyone needs to stay focused and make rational arguments without resorting to personal attacks. Taxpayer, I take particular issue with you, for your latest tirade whre you accused the moderator i.e. me of letting religious bigotry get on this blog. I would dispute that. Finally, like I've said before, I would urge people to keep it clean and try to calm down a bit.

TB,
Don't misquote me, please. I never said the Federal Court is a Kangaroo Court.

I simply stated that the City of Naperville had a Kangaroo Court they set up for the Napergate Man, convicted and lynched him, for doing nothing wrong!

The Kangaroo Verdict by our City Officials, in what amounted to a conspiracty against the Napergate Man, was overturned by both the Dupage District Court and the Illinois Apellant Court.
Unlike your info, my info is backed up and documented in the library and county records.

I never said a word about the Federal Courts being Kangaroo Courts. I have much respect for our Federal and District Courts.

You have the same problem as Joe as you neither read nor review what you write. And like Joe you seem to never be creative or orginal. Just attacking bloggers who never knew you existed until you attacked them. Is that some attention seeking mechanism to attack bloggers and get a high of sorts? You remind me so much of Joe! Are you his brother or sister possibly!
Sorry I can not tell from your initials if you are a guy or gal so I am not trying to be offensive! It would be nice if bloggers indicated their gender so we can address them properly!

Ameena

joe

read my comment. im not the one who said only 2 cops were needed downtown on weekend nights, someone else did.

Posted by: taxpayer | December 28, 2007 07:36 PM
******************************************************************
Taxpayer,
You are letting Joe mislead you. There was no one esle that said only 2 cops are needed downtown. I stated 2 cops on each busy INTERSECTION supported by Private Security downtown is enough. That does not equate to 2 cops downtown. You are a smart man, Taxpayer. Please don't fall for Joe's lies and attack the innocent. Never believe a word Joe says. He just twists and turns words until he satifies his quest AND deep desire to be a pathological liar.

Mrs. Quigley,

I find the tax complaints and misplaced anger about them comical at best. The City adopted a property tax rate levy of .6966 for 2008. The lowest levy in over 30 years. Some people simply choose to be unhappy regardless of the reality of the situation, I suppose.

Joe, you are such a liar and distorter.

Marilyn never said anything about a bouncer having the legal right to hold someone 2 blocks away.

She only mentioned on the premises or right in front of the premises until police came.

Put up or shut up!!! Show me where she said a bouncer would operate or have any legal right 2 blocks away.

Such a fabricating loser you are!

Ciao,
Ameena

dazed & mrs. Q

the city of naperville paid out somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 or 6 million in overtime. not reimbursed overtime. that is the amount of overtime the city paid. i did know the exact number at one point but can't recall it exactly. i just remember it being in the neighborhood of 5-7 million. if you were up on the "facts" you would realize i was accurate rather than try and discredit me.

it has been reported by many outlets through this whole controversy, ask jim lynch, that there were about 50 patrol officers in the top 100 paid employees in the city last year, and that several of them made near 150k. the same report showed that several officers were paid as much as 40k in overtime in one year. that is about 30% of what many of them made. 30% of the time some cops are on the clock is spent during overtime. that was released in furstenaus federal suit and has been reported in several media outlets (daily herald, fox news, etc.)

with that, i have made no other claims then it seems to be a lot of money in overtime pay and many patrol officers spend a lot of time on the clock at 1.5 times pay. i have not made any official claims that there would be a better way or more efficient way of doing things. i have only said that a discussion looking into a better way would be warranted given the large amount overtime pay. 5-6 million is a lot regardless of what you think. it would be interesting to know what the average amount of overtime worked by a npd officer was last year and what the overall percentage of overtime hours worked was compared to total time or normal pay-rate time.

mrs. Q - you would be shocked at how little "billable overtime" the city gets. you should look into just how much the city has donated to the rib-fest, the last fling, parades, etc. in terms of security with npd officers. the fling, rib-fest, etc. pay for a VERY small percentage of the overtime they require from the city officers. that is a FACT.

furthermore, mrs. Q. i find it incredibly childish that you and some others continue to refer to councilman furstenau as DICK and use his name and reference his name in ways that imply you are calling him or someone else a DICK in an inappropriate way. i am also disappointed that the moderator continues to let you do so and not ask you to clean it up. it is an incredibly immature thing to do. you think its clever? what are you in the third grade?

i also find it puzzling that many people come on here to talk about how bad a person furstenau must be because he told a few employees to shape up or ship out, and in an attempt to slam on him, you use bigotry and discriminatory statements about his religion. i have also been very disappointed the moderator has allowed such filth to be written on this site. it is debatable how bad it is to tell someone they'll get fired if they don't shape up, but it is deplorable and despicable to resort to religious bigotry to try and make your point. it only shows your true character as human beings. worthless.

im am done with dealing with and debating with filth.

Taxpayer,

Very well said! I agree with you fully!

Just want to ask you if those 5-6 million in overtime is documented somewhere or possible speculation. I would like to use those numbers, if you can assure me they are reputable. And if they are, they are so frightening and really prove all the points you are making.

I am not doubting you, but would like to know how I can track them down, in case Professor Joe wants to argue them. I guess today he wants to be a Professor. In a few days he will be Mayor Joe and run the city. The guy reminds me of a very low esteemed individual having serious inferiority complex issues.

And cops making 150k which includes nearly twice their starting pay of 56k in overtime borders on insanity. If this is true, I just can not believe Chief Dial and Mayor Pradel tolerate this behavior and waste. This is really something the Sun should look into as a watch dog of government. I would love to see Editor Tim West step up to the plate like he did in the Napergate Days when he demanded those legals costs be disclosed.

It just seems unfair that a Mayor like Pradel who works so hard makes less than one-fith of cops who spends most of their time observing and doing ALMOST nothing in the downtown area.

Maybe it is time to gather some residents together like in the Napergate Days and head to a City Council meeting and ask for some clarification.

Are you willing to go? I am! I am sure Ameena would not mind taking a break from the library and visting a council meeting.

If we don't act, our taxes will go up even further. At least we know DF will listen to what we have to say. Maybe even Mayor Pradel, Council Members Doug Krause and Darlene Senger will listen. Don't know about the rest though!!!

I don't see much hope with Council Member Rosonava. It is hard to believe when you study history, that he was endorsed by the Napergatge ads and the Napergatians helped elect him. It just seems from wathing him on TV, he has done a complete FLIP FLOP and turned on those who helped him attain office. It just seems like Developer Friendly Attorny Bill Brestal put him in his back pocket by giving his son a 6 digit salary.

More and more our beautiful Naperville is looking/sounding like Maltese Cicero. Mayor Pradel really needs to step up to the plate and stop being a nice guy all the time. Nice guys finish last! He needs to demand that Rosonova recuse himself on all issuses put to a vote handled by Brestal. I'd hate to see the Feds come in and begin indicting council members left and right. It has happened numerous times in other suburbs especially concerning issues of CONFLICTS OF INTEREST! Former Mayors and Police Chiefs in Melrose Park, Stone Park, and Cicero are living in 8 by 4 cells at this moment. And let us not forget the ACE in the HOLE payoff to an OAK BROOK TERRACE Council Member's son in an attempt to cover the conflict of interest payoff from a DEVELOPER! Beware Rosonava! It could easily happen to OUR OFFICIALS IF THEY DON'T MIND THEIR STEPS! The FEDS are not people our city council members want knocking on their doors at 7am in the morning!

Mayor Pradel is a good man with a great heart. He needs to protect himself from his fellow council members who are really opening a can of worms with their conflicts of interest and no desire to disclose them.

Well, it is sad to see a Council Man who got elected with high ratings from the Napergate Man, his ads, his 3500 supporters, Activist Donna Rogers Spring Green platoon of supporters, and suddenly FLIP FLOP because a developer attorney gave his son a HIGH PAYING POSITION. Yes, during Napergate and Spring Gate Rosonova voted against Bill Brestal in developments such as Spring Green. Since he gave his son a job, can anyone disclose the number of times Rosonava voted against BRESTAL! Just Curious!

Yes, curiosity was killing me and I also went to the library to review old Napergate ads and Sun articles. And my sincere thanks and appreciation to Moderator Jim Lynch for his posting which pretty much made finding all this information almost effortless.

Taxpayer,

I would venture a guess that it's already been looked into and they keep doing what they are doing because it was decided that is what is best with regards to overtime pay versus the costs associated with increasing head-count.

The fact that you do not like their conclusion does not mean they have not looked into it. Again, this is a claim you keep making as if it's fact; that it has not been looked into. I'd wager it has been. You just simply do not like the conclusion they came to (to pay overtime versus increasing headcount). You certainly have the right to feel that way but you are continually beating a dead horse claiming it's not been looked into. You are the one who seems unwilling or unable to accept it for what it is and have to make it out like DF is coming in with a cape tied to his body; a dollar sign silk-screened to his chest to rid us of this evil incarnate that is plaguing the police force... the dreaded and ever feared OVERTIME PAY.

Taxpayer?
When you post a name or use a claim of being a taxpayer do you feel you are the only one in the area who pays taxes? We all pay taxes and we all share the right to say how our money is used. Where are you getting your facts on who is making what? Either you are a disgruntled civil servant or a person who just throws out claims with no facts to back it up. I'ts very obvious that YOU have never had to justify any sort of budget except perhaps yours..If you have one. There are many checks and balances that a government budget needs to go through before it is granted including council approval,so by saying "a ton of OT" what or whom are you speaking of? and what makes you think it hasn't been justfied? Show us some facts. This town is proud of the many activities that are provided to it's residents and with every event there is a need for a police presence to keep a watchful eye on things. Unless there is a cut in activities there will not be a need for less police presence. I stand by my last post, either hire more police to do the work NEEDED on overtime or pay your exsisting police force the OT needed. Show where the "ton of OT" is and when you can't,feel free to find the nearest cop and thank him/her for doing their part in making this such a great place to live.

Let's keep in mind that Furstenau is pursuing this lawsuit, and trying to validate a civil rights case based on his perception of conspiracy. He is going to try to prove that everyone involved has picked on him, and targeted him for being a councilman with opinions (don't they all?).

Why is Furstenau doing this? He is doing this because the city would not apologize for his arrest for a police incident (the city citing probable cause), and the city would not give him close to $130,000.00 of taxpayer money to pay off his political supporters (several of whom publicly indicated they did not want the money returned to them), and his demand for the city (taxpayers) to reimburse him for his legal expenses, and campaign expenses for a state election he lost. I don't know about anyone else here in Naperville, but I do not want ANY of my tax money spent to cover Furstenau's political expenses. I feel the city made the right decision to refuse him. His demand for the city to pay up, or get sued tells the rest of the story.

Here is a simple solution:
1. Furstenau can drop the suit, and let our city servants spend their time serving us, instead of wasting time on his problems. And of course, save us taxpayers all that wasted money.
2. His supporters can have a fund drive, or political fundraising event to collect money from the people who have the money to give away, and who want to give it to Furstenau to pay off his political expenses.
3. We can all blog to say we wish everything had never happened, if that will make him feel better.

joe

again you are stating that im making claims that im actually not trying to make. i said i don't know the magic numbers and amounts involved. i also said that you don't either. i was only saying it would be worth it for the city to look into it and investigate it and find out what the answer is. how many times to you have do you have to be told something before it sinks in. read what i previously wrote and you will see that i admit that i don't know what the magic cutoff amount of overtime is where it becomes less efficient. i only stated that 5-6 million in overtime pay deserves LOOKING INTO to see if there is a more efficient way.

i disagree with a lot of people on this board and they disagree with me and thats ok. i can respect differences in opinion, but you are the only one that i have no respect for what so ever. most of your posts or responses to other posts give the appearance that you don't even know what day it is. either you can't read and retain what people say, or you chose to ignore or what they say, or you purposely twist what they say and respond with something way off base from what point they were making.

i agree with what many people have said about you previously on this blog. you are only here to stir the pot, you are only interested in saying things that will upset people, and it doesn't matter if what you say is accurate or even addressing the point people make. you don't care about being accurate. none of your arguments actually even make sense. it is clear that your only purpose is to bother and antagonize people and disagree with anything anyone says.

i disagree with a lot of what other people say on this board. tb and i rarely agree on things but his arguments are logical, make sense, and he doesn't twist around the points others try to make. d. bone can be the biggest jack-a-- on this board and i think that most of what he says is insane, but at least he isn't intentionally antagonistic or try to lie or twist what other people say. he simply shares his opinion, as stupid as it usually is. you, on the other hand are a complete idiot and i am going to join with others on this blog and will no longer respond or read anything you have to say.

Joe/T.B.: Your thoughts and opinions are right on the mark. Keep them coming....To DICK'S disciples: DICK keeps WHINING about NPD overtime...I guess he doesn't realize a large chunk of it is called "billable overtime". Billable overtime is not taken out of the city's budget, but paid for by outside parties...ie Ribfest sponsers, marathon sponsers....THE CITY GETS REIMBURSED!!! Do your homework before yapping DICK!!!

Marshall,

Here's the gist of it.

People throw out 'claims' as facts and provide nothing to back up what they claim. I call them out and ask them to show how they are right while providing specific examples (using the real world) about how and why I think some of their claims are bunk.

Call it bullying if you want but I think people feel they don't need to explain their claims and are emotionally upset that someone doesn't just simply accept it as fact because it was posted in a blog on the internet. (As if that gives anything posted any validity). I really don't care if you believe what I post or not; you're certainly free to make up your own mind. I also don't resort to calling people 'morons' or 'jerks' because they happen to disagree with me, unlike other posters here.

OK, so Marilyn brought up the NPD OT in response to the allegation that DF has a "gripe" with Chief Dial. Is that how we got to this police issue instead of the issue at hand--DF?

While I am happy that someone is watching the NPD OT hours, I would argue that DF and the council helped creat the problem themselves when they allowed the large number of fests, runs, charity walks, and other events to happen in the city. The increased police demand during Ribfest, for instance, is not sustained during the colder months and thus hiring more officers may not be the answer. It may be a seasonal issue.

Many of these orgiazations are subsidized through the Culture Fund to offset the NPD OT security expenses. So even though a particular officer may be being paid allot of OT, the police budget isn't taking as large of a hit thanks to our 1% food and beverage tax. Isn't that what you wanted anyways? The bars paying for the security?

Now, I know DF has been vocal about the NPD OT, but I think its quite a stretch to say there is widespread animosity towards DF for his budetary review. There's just no proof. Find some and I'll believe you, but all you really have is an untested theory. Find an e-mail, FOP newsletter...something tangible.

And Marilyn, you still have not corrected your ways, have you? If someone disagrees with you, then you go on the attack. The fact that you perceive everyone with a differing opinion as completely biased or idiotic borders on paranoia. You should seek help. Linden Oaks isn't far away.

Also, the fact that a blogger is not from Naperville does not disqualify their opinion. In fact, I find it interesting that others are as intrigued by this situation as us Naperville taxpayers. Yes, Marilyn, I live in Naperville. In fact, I'm walking distance to downtown so I could even be your neighbor.

Taxpayer,

You are now blanketly saying all police officers want nothing to do with looking into more efficient ways to spend taxpayer money.

What percentage of the NPD force have you actually asked to make such a claim?

Please tell us (since you claim your way is more efficient) exactly how many more officers it would take (along with the hiring costs, costs to have them even be employees, health benefits, pension payments, etc) to strike the balance between overtime pay and more officers to actually make it CHEAPER overall for the budget and also show us by how much. You might trim one line item, but you're going to inflate several others to do it. Show us how that works with real numbers.

If you want to make the claim, post the math. As the saying goes: Show me the money.

joe - dazed and confused

you are really proving to me that you are a moron. we can all have different opinions, thats fine, but you keep bashing people for insinuations they aren't making, including myself. i never said to cut the police force. i said to consider ways to make it more efficient. i proposed LOOKING INTO hiring more cops to cut overtime pay. then you and the dazed and confused guy come back with the cost of more full time cops with benefits will cost more... yada yada yada. no s---! do you think you are so smart and everyone else is so dumb that no one else understands economies of scale? im sure that even you are smart enough to realize that there is a point at which paying over time rates at 1.5 times normal pay becomes more expensive than hiring more officers. a small amount of overtime pay will certainly be less costly than hiring more cops, but a ton of overtime pay is certainly more expensive than hiring more cops. the question is, what is that amount where the cutoff takes place. i don't know and you don't know. but 5 or 6 million in overtime pay sure seems like a lot of wasted cash. it certainly is a large enough amount of money to ask the city and police chief to look into, or consider, more ways to spend that money more wisely and see if hiring more officers is more efficient. stop saying it isn't because you have no idea whether it is or not, and im not saying for sure that it is a better way either. im just saying, along with the other people here, that when several PATROL OFFICERS are making upwards of 150,000/year there is merit in looking into how our tax money can be more efficiently spent.

of course every cop, from the chief and union president down to the lowest beat cop, wants nothing to do with looking into more efficient ways to spend taxpayer money. they are all thrilled with the fact that such a large percentage of the time they spend on the clock is at 1.5 times normal pay. the last thing they want is to look into hiring more cops to cut into their overtime pay or any other mechanism that might trim the fat from the amount of overtime pay that used. they all like the fact they are making far more money than their normal rate would pay.

To JR: You're right - it's got nothing to do with what everyone is talking about. But, in this case, Jim knows what I'm talking about. Not trying to by cryptic...just trying to keep the conversation on point. Thanks.

To moderator,
Jim is not suing the city. I don't see what Jim's temper or lack thereof has to do with DF. If DF has a short fuse and deminstrates a pattern of agressive behavior, that is relivent.

Marylin and Ameena,

Some people pull their nose out of books and actually go live in and experience the real world.

You seem to want a BMW city on a Yugo budget. Life doesn't work that way. Because an excel spreadsheet cell says there's a savings does not mean it's 'better'. I'm sure you could save money keeping your house at 40 degrees during the winter time. Do you? Why not? Put on another sweater, it's cheaper and therefore better, right?

The police we have and the numbers we have in the down town location are what deter the less desirable (gangbangers as they were called) from coming in and perching and causing trouble.

Go to 4 corners (75th and Lemont) or Streets of Woodfield some night and tell the large crowds they should come to Naperville. You know what they'll say? HECK NO, I don't want to deal with the cops.

That's a good thing because you'd not like it if 50-100 of them started showing up and causing trouble, then they tell their friends, and the next night you have 200, then 300, then 400 etc.

Streets of Woodfield finally got smart and now has more REAL officers instead of the dozen rent-a-cops around and the number of gangbangers was starting to drop off there too before the end of the season this past year. Coincidence? Hardly.

Originally you said the businesses need to hire private security to help the officers. I asked how they could help with things blocks away since it's off the business property. You then proceed to tell me how they help ON the property but not with events happening OFF the property (where they are just an ordinary citizen, same as you and me). Again, I state they have NO LEGAL BACKING to hold people (false imprisonment) or physically do anything to them without opening up a legal can of worms on themselves. So please, tell me what grants a 'bouncer' the legal right to hold someone in an incident 2 blocks away (as he walks away from his hired duty at the bar as a bouncer). Please cite the statute that grants this, since you're in the library so much. Take your time, but don't take too long.

To Jim: I told you once I couldn't post your prior comment and here you are - at it again - trying to slip it through. No need to dredge up my reasons again. The answer is still NO. It was a good try, though. Now, let me ask you a question. Have you ever lost your temper?

Duh Marilyn,

Bouncer = bounces the bad guys into the street. That will make downtown all better..

Taxpayer,
Why don't you take a moment and figure out how much more money it would cost YOU the taxpayer if Naperworld were to hire more police to make up for the work being done on overtime by an existing police force. The money for benefits etc.. would be WAY more than the cost of overtime to make you feel safe and warm under the bubble Naperworld residents have grown to expect.
T.B..keep up the good work. Common sence seems to run thin in this town, it's refreshing to hear from someone who has it.

most of you bloggers are self obsessed people, just writing to prove to yourself how clever and smart you are. let's get back on the subject of DICK. mr. sotos seems extremely credible and points out way too many inconsistencies and lies. DICK seems to be a sociopathic liar and quite possibly should be examined for some form of mental illness. he should NOT sit on the council. DO NOT argue that because he tries and save taxpayers money, or he just yells at people and is abrasive that he is O.K. he is not O.K. as a councilman he should have NO CONTACT with any city employee except dept. heads, and even that is questionable as to how much he can say to them. he is not doing his job !!! i urge everyone to bombard DICK with emails, furstenaur@naperville.il.us

tell him to drop his suit and resign. he is an embarrassment to the city and himself.

Bar 'security' has 0 power to do anything immediately off their property and in most cases are powerless to do anything physical with a patron without opening up a legal can of worms on themselves. They can certainly throw their muscle around, but there's no legal backing to it when push comes to shove.
******************************************************************
Joe,
Did you ever bother to listen to yourself or bother reading what you write? You sound so illogical....so nonsensical!

All over the country and world bars hire strong bouncers because of their ability to deal physically with patrons and not because of their inability. Bouncers have a duty to break up fights and if necessary use physical force to save a patron from the harm of another. Bouncers at times are requried to suppress an unruly patron and hold him physcially until police arrive to take over.

The name "bouncer" means/implies one who bounces an unruly customer outside of a club or bar. If a patron has committed a crime it is the duty of the bouncers to hold this patron until police arrive. And most bouncers do this as usually they outnumber the unruly patron or patrons.

Your statement that if the bouncers did anything physical it will open a legal can of worm on themselves is just simply not true. The opposite is so true! If they did NOT physically get involved to stop fights and prevent injury to patrons, they would open a can of worms on themselves.

Bouncers are not suppose to punch patrons except in extreme cases involving self-defense. But they are suppose to do anything physical they can to stop and prevent fights including tacking and holding trouble making customers until police arrive.

Your statement, "They can certainly throw their muscle around, but there's no legal backing to it when push comes to shove" sounds extremely nonsensical.

First you are trying to be a wanna be cop. Now you are trying to be a wanna be lawyer.

Honestly Joe, you have to be the dumbest blogger I have ever met. As many have stated you just like to argue for the sake of arguing, but unfortunately you do not have the talent to argue.

I can not ever recall you posting anything original based on research you did. Ameena goes to the library, does some research and publishes it. Why can't you do something like that for a change? I think this is the same girl you attacked for weeks because she complained of a faintly painted cab spot she could not see that caused her car to get towed.

Now you are attacking me for wanting NPD to cut some costs. Stop being the blog bully all the time, Joe. Please!

Who are you going to attack tomorrow, Joe? What is your wanna be role for tomorrow, Joe? In the future, I think it would be wise of you to consider reading and reviwing what you write before you post it. I doubt you would post it if you cared to take the time to review what you wrote!

Marilyn, Taxpayer, etc...

Okay, I don't think that anyone has said that NPD or all of its employees are perfect. We all know better - show me perfection in any business, in any job or office.

The point I was trying to make was that the solution to saving money or tightening the ship as it were, is probably not to cut jobs - on the contrary. Why IS there so much over-time? Perhaps it is because there are not always enough available officers to patrol, so others get called in on their day off? Even though you say you see congregations of officers downtown, I bet you would be shocked to find out how few officers are actually on the street at various times throughout a shift. (and usually in the summer, there are more officers downtown, as the department utilizes the officers that are based at the schools during the school year, downtown in the summer)

Over-time is not handed out on a silver platter as a money making scheme for officers to fatten their wallets. Working over-time is not something my husband sets out to do on a given day, or when we have extra bills or when he feels like it. He doesn't ask his boss for more over-time, and he doesn't hang around at the end of the day and clock out late to pad his time card. He gets called in when a need arises. The patrol division falls below minimum numbers and they make phone calls.

Marilyn, please note that my husband chose to do this job - just like you chose your profession (with no pension, etc...) Yes, he does make a comfortable living and will have a decent pension (but keep in mind, is not able to collect Social Security). BUT, his (and his fellow officers) life expectancy is probably 20 years less than those of other occupations, after 20 something years of working nights, fights, stresses of arrests, suicides and dead babies, working 12 hours shifts, drinking bad coffee and having a disjointed sleep schedule. He has missed countless school plays, kids sporting events, family gatherings, birthdays, anniversaries, holidays, graduations and other important events - the NPD is open and operating 24/7; 365 days a week.

I am not asking you or anyone to feel sorry for him or his co-workers ~ but let's be realistic about solutions to the problems. While I know that some (probably plenty) officers like the over-time and the paycheck it provides, I agree that the city spends a lot of money paying over-time. But, cuts are not the way to fix things. I am not even saying they need to hire a lot of new officers either. A patrol person or two per shift may eliminate the need for over-time and would possibly cost less than the dollars in over-time pay.

You know what? I don't pretend to know all of the answers, but I sure would not feel happy about having fewer officers in my town, and I certainly would not feel happy about having to be protected when I go downtown by a $10 an hour security guard who would have no more authority to do anything than you or I, if someone was committing a crime.

Naperville does have a great citizen base, which makes us have a great and safe community. It does take a police presence to help keep it all in check though.

I challenge any of you griping about how much of your tax dollars are spent on the police protection, to do some research and find out how many officers most communities our size have per capita, and what they spend for it - versus their crime statistics compared to Naperville. That might make for an interesting topic at a future city council meeting, and maybe we might find a way to tighten the ship that makes sense.

Thank you Joe.

Marilyn--

I read your 1:15 post today and altered between dismay and laughter.

I am very aware that the city does not get 100% of the sales tax, but that's not to say that the city is in a deficit from my or others' spending in the city. Tell you what, I'll try to eat and drink more during the Bears game this weekend, OK? By the way, I have a designated driver so I doubt I'll be abusing my allotted police presence. I'll be grateful they are there keeping me safe from some idiot.

Joe's post at 2:30 hit the nail on the head regarding the police presence (as well as those from Mrs Police Officer) so I won't even go into it now.

Next-your property went down the last two years? Have you done no maintenance, woman? My property may not have appreciated in the last year, but it hasn't decreased. Anyways, housing is a long-term investment like stocks and there isn't a parcel in the city that hasn't benefitted from our strong city economy.

Hmmm...I either have no common sense or else I'm a bar owner sponging off the city? Are you and Ameena sisters? Seems the two of you fail to argue on logic at times and thus feel you must lash out at people individually. For the record, I am neither a bar ownner, idiot, Naperville cop, attorney, councilman, friend of any councilman, Santa Claus, or the Boogie Man. I'm just someone who happens to dissagree with you, think you're logic is lacking in some areas (but not all), and deserves the same respect you seem to think you are owed.

To Ameena--

First of all, see the paragraph above regarding personal attacks when you can't make a logical argument. Also, Federal court is no Kangaroo court and just because the attorney speaks out does not mean it is a bad thing. How many times have you seen attorneys on TV, such as Dan Webb or Eddie Genson, and nobody has ever accused them of being poor attorneys. They have an agenda for their clients and, I would hope, know more about what they are doing than you do. One example I can think of is the very fact this will be in Federal court in downtown Chicago so it never hurts to have the cities version of events in the news for potential jurors who will come from far and wide for this trial.

Taxpayer--

Thanks. I'm not an attorney. I just happen to agree with you that this isn't about the acquittal, but is about what lead up to DF being in court to begin with. It's going to come down to what was th eprobable cause for the arrest, legitimate or bogus?

Police Lady,
Is Naperville really as safe as you say with over 800 DUIs last year leading the state excluding Chicago? How many slipped by NPD if they got this many?

If these heavy DUIs are because of our downtown bars then are City Officials having us going down the wrong path.

While Naperville was once considered a very safe city, I beg to differ with you as I believe it is gradually losing its Safe Town status.

Mrs. Police Officer,
You don't have to dare me. I already said more than once that 2 police officers and 10 private security guards on Chicago Avenue and Washington is more than adequate. I did not say for all of downtown Naperville. If a big fiaso develops which rarely happens, NPD officers know how to call for back-up. That is normal police procedure to keep expenses down as police can not be everywhere at all times. This could potentially save a million bucks. As a police officer you are biased and would like your overtime pay at the expense of the TAXPAYER.

Downtown Naperville is relatively safe whether there are a few cops roaming around or a dozen socializing on Chicago Ave. Bars in the winter are sometimes busier than on summer days. There does not seem to be a need for a POLICE ARMY on Chicago Ave in the winter....why the sudden need in the summer! If you ask me those 10 bike cops in the summer are a waste of money. Even if they saw an intoxicated driver, I am sure they will chase him down with their bikes...lol...

I spend much much time in downtown. I rarely see a fight. So 2 cops at busy intersections is plenty. 12 at one intersection is ridiculous. It is an example of wasting money because we are the wealthiest town in the USA with over 100,000 population and seem to have a sick need to burn 100 dollar bills as if they grow on trees.

I have only seen a large group of trouble makers come to downtown during one 2 week period this last summer. A specific bar owner had a promotion catering to the wrong people, played gang banging music and brought us gang bangers from the south side of Chicago and the rough neighborhoods of Auroa. I am sure the police had a few words with this bar owner. He changed his music and the gangbangers never returned.

So there are ways to keep trouble makers out of town without having a POLICE ARMY on duty. Bar owners must take responsibilty for the music they play. A liquor license is a privelege and they should not be allowed to play songs promoting the killing of cops. They should have their licenses revoked for playing and promoting gang banging music. How disgusting? And then as a TAXPAYER I have to pay for this huge police presence because of the stupidity of a bar owner.

As far as your offer for a ride-along on a Friday or Saturday, I will pass up. I would rather be sitting on a bench on Chicago AVE, than stuck in one of those 6 police vehicles that are parked in the middle of Chicago Ave. and never seem to move or ever get called....a strong indication of over staffing!

I have observed heavily and I stand by my assertion one cop car there with 2 officers is enough assisted by outside private security and doorman paid by the bar owners. If private security is so terrible why does the City use it or require it to support the police during Ribfest and the Last Fling. They do a great job at a much cheaper price. No one is saying we need to fire cops. We are saying we need to stop the ridiculous overtime by using private security to supplemant the cops.

I wish I knew how to get information like the Napergate Man and publish graphs and charts indicating what I am talking about. Unfortunately I don't have his sources, abilities or money to make my point as he once did.

I am only kindly requesting Police Chief Dial to consider my proposal. I will not be intimidated by anyone into making a reasonable request of my Police Chief.

Joe,
No one is bashing the cops. You are a bully trying to instigate trouble by accusing people falsely.

Taxpayer, Marilyn and Ameena unlike your self do research before they write. They go to libraries and read newspaper articles before they write. One of them studied old Napergate ads and the case at the library.

All you do Joe, is sit on the threads bullying bloggers. And you have the audacity to say DF is a bully. If he is a bully you are 10 times the bully he is!

They are simply asking the Police Chief to review his spending practices and make some cuts. Very politely! What is wrong with that?

Is Chief Dail some kind of Pope or Saint that can not be questioned and asked to improve his spending practices and reduce his budget?

I am sorry but you sound like a wanna be cop who never made the cut and is attempting to live a fantasy on these blogs.

joe

read my comment. im not the one who said only 2 cops were needed downtown on weekend nights, someone else did. i actually stated we need the cops there because downtown has turned into a drunken beer-fest and the cops are needed to keep order.

i merely suggested that the cops get paid incredibly large amounts of overtime and end up making large amounts of money. i was suggesting that looking into a different way has merit. i wasn't suggesting taking any off the street. whether it is hiring more officers so less overtime is billed or redistributing officers on the clock, whatever.

your blasting me for arguments and comments someone else made. reread my post and you will see i supported npd presence downtown on weekends. i also commend them for doing a good job overall. i just think we pay out way to much overtime at "time and a half" and we can find away to continue to keep street safe and not bill so much overtime. we spent like 5 million in overtime pay last year for npd alone.

Taxpayer,

It can be a topic of discussion, but when one starts throwing out 'solutions' that actually would make situations worse, expect some corrections with facts.

If you honestly believe 2 cops can do the job of 10 then let's take a ride to Torrence and 103rd some night on the south side at 11PM and see how 'safe' you feel with little to no police presence around you. Make sure to go up to the groups of people hanging around the structures for directions and be sure to tell them you're not from around there. The reason this town is as safe as it is is directly due to the number of police on the beat at all times. They watch, they respond, they're not constantly backed up with 5 calls ahead of yours when you call for an emergency and only able to respond 50 minutes later.

You house alarm goes off, how many hours do you want them to take getting to you because their skeleton force is busy with 6 things ahead of your 'emergency' that may very well be a false alarm... but then again, maybe it's a legit alarm ? I bet you'd want a response within minutes or sooner, right?

Honestly, I've not heard this much police bashing since High School.

mrs. police officer and joe

lets be honest, naperville is a safe place to live, first and foremost, because the vast majority of the people here are good, hardworking, law abiding citizens.

the npd also does their part keeping the city safe. i don't blame what goes on downtown on friday or saturday on the npd. the npd are needed there because the leaders of our city, including peter b. and many of the councilman, have seen fit to turn our city into division street. a drunken beer festival every weekend which results in a dangerous amount of driving under the influence and an environment contrary to the family friendly town for which we all fell in love with naperville to begin with. i don't feel like i can take my kids downtown anymore on a weekend. that is what a have a problem with. that said, that doesn't mean that there haven't been times that some cops have abused their power or verbally mistreated people. i also believe that the ones who do represent a minority of the force, but don't suggest that the npd as a whole is perfect and never goes to far. all of us here could list many examples of when they have.

though i believe that the npd generally does a good job, that doesn't mean that a discussion about their pay practices or the size of the force they employ which results in massive amounts of overtime pay, at time and a half, isn't a valid topic for discussion. i believe it is a very valid point for discussion that could save taxpayers millions. that topic isn't about attacking the npd, its about "tightening the ship" and making it more efficient.

Mrs. Police Officer,

Thank you to all of NPD for keeping this a very safe town.

Marilyn,
I would like to suggest that you sign up to go on a few ride-alongs in a squad car, especially on a Friday or Saturday night. Summer-time is particularly interesting downtown when a hot summer evening allows for the bar fights to spill out onto the street and I dare you to say that two officers and a couple of bouncers could control it. Then be sure to stick around for closing time when all of the drunks get behind the wheel to go home. I bet if something happened to one of your loved ones because of this, you would see this all very differently. Look at the AAIM website and read the testimonials. Oh, and why is it that Naperville is such a great and safe place to live anyway??

To Southeast Side Dad: Honestly, I have no idea what the oath of office is and given that it's late on a Friday afternoon of a holiday weekend, there's no way we're going to find out today. We'll try next week. In the meantime, maybe you could do a little research. Thanks.

taxpayer,

You obviously misread my comment. I clearly stated that DF has the right to sue, as does any citizen. My question regards the oath of office of city council. If it includes anything like "do my best to serve the people of Naperville", DF would certainly be violating that oath. It really depends on the wording of the oath whether a sitting councilman has the right to sue the city.

Since I have not been able to find the oath on the city's website, I was suggesting that the Sun might be able to clarify the issue, and possibly provide the text of the oath.

Hey T.B.
It was moderator Jim who assumed this attorney was being paid by the City for his interview. It was his assumption and I agreed with it. I calculated that he billed for 2 hours of travel time and the one hour interview time and I am pretty certain that is what he did to the tune of $1000.00. If you have an argument subpoena the records from the city. Good luck! In Napergate we all know the city buried the records and hid them from the taxpayers. If you have an issue with that argue with TIM WEST, editor in Chief of the Sun, who uncovered the CORRUPTION. Not me on my 3rd glass of wine!!!

By the way I did not have a 3rd glass of wine and went to the Library and researched old Napergate Ads posted by moderater Jim Lynch for us by date making the job easy.

1. Jim Sotos tipped the defense by pointing out 2 alleged lies DF stated in his interview with the SUN. If these in fact were lies he should have saved them to use before a jury to ruin DF's credibility and not tipping him off. This guy does not sound like a million dollar attorney and it is a shame the TAXPAYERS are paying for his sub par performance.

2.You must have not been around in the NAPERGATE DAYS. A city using high priced Chicago laws firms to get its message out to the public does not work. They attacked the Napergate Man constantly in all local papers to get the message out he was a bad guy. They even had a Kangaroo Trial of sorts for him inside of City Hall in which they convicted him beyoned a reasonable doubt. The judge, commisioners, prosecutors and witnesses were I assume all city employees and the hired Chicago law firms. They went to the media with their Kangaroo Conviction. And made sure the Sun published it.

In the end all that nonsense was for nothing. The Kangaroo Verdict was overturned by a jury in a Dupage Courtroom before Judge Bonnie Wheaton according to both Napergate full page ads and Naperville Sun articles all still available in the libraries. The jury verdict was also uphled by the Appellant Court dealing another severe blow to City Officials!

I did my research after having my wine, T.B. I am not making assumptions. I was researching case history. You are the one making invalid assumptions!

If you are half the man or woman you pretend to be, you would CONDEMN the City of Naperville for losing, disposing, or hiding the legal records in the Napergate Case to hide the information we were seeking then and seeking now. Show us your Manhood or Womanhood instead of your ignorant BIAS!

In reveiwing old Naperville Sun editions there was an onslaught by both the Napergate Man and Sun Editor Tim West to get these legal costs and both failed despite numerous attempts. Maybe I am not credible for having a glass of wine, but are they also not CREDIBLE!

And finally I would estimate 75% of the employees who were involved in an attempt to lynch the Napergate Man are still gainfully employed by the City to this day. So beaware T.B. and don't be so naive! To me this appears Napergate Round II and the city has learned nothing about controlling and monitoring outside high powered law firms.

When attorneys start talking in the millions of dollars for a petty case involving touching or bumping a cop, it is time to terminate their services.

tb

your last point was right on the money. i agree with you 100%. you have said what i have been trying to tell many people all along, and i think this is a point many people misunderstand about the lawsuit. you obviously are an attorney so you have a much better way of explaining this legal stuff. im just a lowely salesman. lol.

just because furstenau was found innocent that is not legitimate reason to file suit for false arrest. that is 100% on the money. unfortunately, i believe many people think this is the reason he is filing suit. i don't believe that it is. from his interviews, he is suing because he believes, as do his attorneys, that they can prove the probable cause in this case was false or manufactured. that, in essence, furstenau was a target, and the npd used this incident to "go after him" and remove him from office.

that is why i say that this lawsuit isn't about retrying the incident. he was found innocent. that cannot be changed. this is going to dig into the investigation and how the evidence was gathered. were there any inconsistencies in hull's story? did they overlook or ignore evidence that would have cleared furstenau? were witnesses properly questioned? where there any inappropriate uses of power at the states attorneys office? did chief dial direct hull on what to say or to change his story or alter reports? did any illegal or inappropriate conversations take place? did the npd hide anything? was any part of his due process denied or abused? those are the types of things that are going to be tried in this suit.

tb, i know my explanation in this last paragraph was lay-man's terms and explanations for what kinds of things this lawsuit will investigate. so please don't tear me apart if i mis -stated something unintentionally. i think you and anyone else understand the general point im trying to make. maybe you could use your expertise to clarify, analyze, or elaborate on, or add to what i have said about these being the types of things this lawsuit will investigate.

i am only trying to make the point that many people think furstenau is suing just because he was found innocent and therefor got screwed. that isn't the case. he is suing because he and his attorneys believe there is evidence that his due process was violated in some way during the investigation that lead to his arrest.

Marilyn,

You are wrong on several things. I am not a police officer but I do know and have known many in my lifetime. So please, stop embarrassing yourself as others have by perpetuating the inaccuracy.

Bar 'security' has 0 power to do anything immediately off their property and in most cases are powerless to do anything physical with a patron without opening up a legal can of worms on themselves. They can certainly throw their muscle around, but there's no legal backing to it when push comes to shove. Also, how are they going to stop the *ahem*hole drivers from doing burn-outs near crowds of people or break up a fight 2 blocks away?

When you see many officers congregated together, they are in most cases, exchanging information about the situation of the downtown area. Some are stationed, some have a 'beat path' to follow and some are the responders to incidents as they happen. Often times multiple incidences happen at once. Your 2 officer patrol would be tied up with the first call leaving no other coverage that could respond as instantly as they do with the blanket coverage they do have currently. Most of the time there are about 2-3 simultaneous incidents happening each requiring multiple officers.

Starting in June, try parking yourself on one of the benches at Jefferson and Main and then try keeping up with the officers as they respond from call to call. Better yet, get yourself a police scanner from Radio Shack and tune it into the trunk system and listen in to what they have to do/put up with because it seems rather obvious that you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about when you think Private Security can replace real officers on the job. A Pro-94 from Radio Shack would work perfectly for this. When you get one, let me know, I'll even program it for you.

Southeast

that is absurd. dick f. has the same civil rights as an elected official as he does any private citizen. when he was elected to office, he didn't surrender any of his civil rights. therefore, he isn't violating any oath by exercising his right to sue.

i have 2 points to make this time around:

1) people continue to argue over whether or not furstenau hit hull, and, at this point, it has no bearing on this case. furstenau was cleared of all the charges against him, including disturbing the peace. that has nothing to do with this lawsuit. furstenau, in no way, has to reprove anything about not hitting hull. he was found innocent. (i understand that doesn't mean he may not have made some contact with hull, but it failed the burden of proof. all im saying is it doesn't matter either way) what took place between hull and furstenau will not be retried at all. he is suing over what he and his attorney believe to be a flawed and shamed investigation that lead to his arrest. the incident itself is over and has nothing to do with it from now on. i guarantee that the incident itself will not be retried. it is the investigation, and the investigation only, that will be on trial.

furstenau said something in his comments at the council meeting that's very telling as to why he is suing. he said, npd charged him with a crime and lobbied to make it a felony charge and put him in prison for 15 years, and that's what he had a problem with. there is a requirement that must be meet for an assault on a police officer to carry felony charges, and from the beginning, this case wasn't even close to it. in the end, there wasn't even enough evidence to convict him of misdemeanor battery or disturbing the peace. i believe that if any of us were charged with something well beyond an incident and they attempted to throw you in jail for 15 years, we would have a problem with that also. the cops had one witness, who wasn't even an "eye" witness, who was sitting in his car 30 feet from the incident, windows rolled up, who said he heard the slap but didn't see it. there were at least 3 witnesses who came forward to testify that they saw the entire conversation and furstenau never touched hull. (for all of you who say it was his sons or relatives, they weren't. the streets were filled with people for the parade) the cops ignored the 3 eye witnesses and went with hull's uncorroborated story and filed for felony assault. you can't be a reasonable person and say that sounds fair. the fact is, we don't know all furstenau and his attorney know. furstenau's attorney specializes in this, and he seems to be very passionate about the unusual circumstances of the investigation. we don't know all the circumstances behind the investigation. all of this on this blog it pure speculation. we will see what comes out in court. we all know that they know many things about this situation that we don't.

2) those of you who keep referring to furstenau's "anger management" issues have to get over yourselves. have any of you never got upset and yelled at anyone? are you naive enough to believe that the other councilman or peter b. never have either? in his remarks, furstenau admitted to having some heated or "pointed" conversations, but then he also said, "he has witnessed the same behavior from other councilman and managers over the years." he wasn't saying he was totally innocent, he was saying he is being censured by people who have behaved in many of the same ways. he stated that was his problem with the censure, and frankly it is mine to. that tells me the motivation for the censure was political and not to support the staff. he relayed stories to the sun about how mr. perfect, peter t., has lost his cool and went ballistic in executive session. i know enough about executive sessions to know that it gets very heated from time to time with everyone taking their turn to be upset, and all of it is recorded on tape. when the time comes, im sure furstenau and his attorney will be able to document several of those incidents with other councilman and peter t., and it will make the censure look more like a railroad job than a display of support.

i have said it before and i'll say it again, im certain we don't know all the facts. furstenau and his attorney do. all of it will come out in court. you may believe this lawsuit is ridiculous based on what you know, and you may believe furstenau yells at people and no one else does, but we will see what comes out and how everyone else looks in the end.

Joe,
You obviously don't read before you write. I am for security big time. But I am for the bar owners hiring security companies at 10 dollars an hour instead of taxpayers paying for excessive police at 50 dollars an hour. My posting pertained 2 cops per intersection is more than enough once supplemanted by Private Security paid for by the bar owners who claim to generate 80k in revenue per weekend just from patio sales.

It is well known that you are a police officer on these blogs so thanks for your BIASED OPINION in order that you can continue reaping a 100k in salary, benefits, and overtime at taxpayer expense. And then you retire with 75% of your salary in pension form while the rest of us TAXPAYERS who do not work for government receive no pension after 30 years of service. After 45 years of service to our corps we are lucky to get a $100 dollar watch! Is that fair, Joe!

I wish Napergate was still around to expose all this waste of taxpayer money and inequities between TAXPAYERS and GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES.

Bob S., Furstenau's acquittal in the criminal case does not prove he didn't hit Officer Hull. All it means is that the prosecution did not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he DID hit the policeman. An acquittal is not proof of innocence. To win the civil trial, though, Furstenau is going to have to convince a jury that there was no cause to arrest him. He doesn't have to prove this beyond a reasonable doubt, but he does have to convince the jury that his version of the events is closer to the truth than Officer Hull's. The outcome of the criminal trial probably won't be of much benefit to Furstenau---just ask O.J. Simpson.

T.B.
With all due respect you missed my point. I am all for police security. Bot not 6 car cops including gas guzzling SUVs, two decked out police motorcycles, and 6 bicycle cops on the same intersection observing and socializing. If they were concerned about security they would spread out to other areas that encompass Rizzs, Potters, Jilly's and Hugos instead of all being in the same place almost all the times.

One cop car at an intersection with 2 officers is plenty to send the MESSAGE OF DETERRANCE. Additional security should be private and provided by bar owners who we are subsidizing.

You probably may not be aware that only 1.25% of the 6.75% sales tax collected is for the City of Naperville. The rest is mostly for the state. So are you telling me a bar patron who spends 20 bucks(near DUI level) and generates exactly .25 cents (1.25% of $20) for the City Budget is actually contributing to our tax base in a postive way.....sorry but he/she is a NET LOSS when you consider the massive police presence, the wear and tear on our streets, the clean up crews for the downtown sidewalks that don't exist in our neighborhoods, the massive cost of the parking decks paid by all taxpayers and not bar owners, and on and on.

And cutting Christmas tree pickups and curbside leaf collection in order that we subsidize bar security sounds rather stupid to me. I deserve something for the $11,300 in RE TAXES that I am expected to pay on May 1 and Sept. 1.

My property value decreased the last 2 years while my RE TAXES shot up indicating out of control expenses as a result of governmental incompetence such as in the well documented Napergate mess and most likely in this DF case which is unraveling.

Sorry TB but you sound like a downtown bar owner enjoying being subsidized at TAXPAYER expense unwilling to pay your TRUE FAIR SHARE!!! Plus, it sounds like you are not a Naperville resident because no NAPEVILLE RESIDENT I know wants to carry his Christmas Tree to the nearest landfill!

And finally you must be missing Joe Citizen at the City Council meetings documenting that some bars pay less in REAL ESTATE taxes than a homeowner. Now try to tell me that a homeowner needs more City Services than a bar owner. Either you have no common sense or you are a bar owner? Which is it T.B.?

Bob S -

The criminal acquittal does not hand DF the false arrest allegation/claim. All the acquittal says is there was not evidence beyond a reasonable doubt to convict DF. To win the false arrest part of a civil case DF has to go further and prove that there was no probable cause for the arrest, or that the probable cause was knowingly false or manufactured.

And to those complaining about the potential cost of litigation - I think you need to relax a bit. You know, lay off the exclamation point on your keyboard before it breaks. What Sotos said was he and Collins agree the litigation could cost more than a million, not necesarily that it would cost one side a million. Don't get me wrong, I think it will be costly. But I also don't think that based solely on cost you should accuse an attorney of dragging a case out. And I also don't think it would have been good legal strategy for Sotos to come out and say the city's not willing to spend whatever it takes to win. If he did, then Collins and DF could win simply by attrition.

While Dick F., as a citizen, certainly has the right to sue whomever he chooses, isn't there something in his oath of office that he is violating? I don't see how he can be keeping any oath to faithfully serve the citizens while creating this million dollar temper tantrum. At the very least, shouldn't he have to take a leave of absence from the council?

Can the Sun please clarify? (or have you already? and I missed it?) What is the oath of office for city council? And how is DF not violating it?

Ameena -- Maybe you should have had a third glass of wine and relaxed a little bit? You start out by saying many attorneys do not charge for media interviews, and then say that Sotos probably charged the city $1,000 due to his travel time. So which is it?

And your assertion that he should not speak with the media assumes he’s tipping his hand and also assumes his clients (the city et al) didn’t know he was going to give the interview. You’re just making too many assumptions here to be credible.

Sotos isn’t necessarily tipping his defense but he is getting his message out to the public and potential jurors, just as DF is doing. The city can't let DF's message be the only one out there if the city truly believes they have a defensible position. You can't let DF be the one to (paraphrasing) "tell a lie, tell it big enough, tell it often enough, and it becomes the truth".

Also, Ameena, I agree with Jim Lynch and while I believe the Sun does pay property taxes in Naperville I prefer to have my news sources acting as objectively as possible.

Marilyn -- It’s clear you have a major issue with the restaurants and bars downtown. The same ones that pay sales taxes. The same ones that pay into the Culture fund (which got us one ugly bell tower). The same ones that will likely fund the new parking decks via a new 1% food and beverage tax. And the same ones that likely drove your near-downtown property value up the past five years. Like it or not, the bars and restaurants are part of the economic engine pumping money into the city’s economy. You said it yourself--many of the cars parking here are from out of town. So I guess our taxes are actually soaking outsiders as well a Naperville residents.

And police presence? Please. The more the better, if for no other reason than deterrence. Maybe the reason there aren't more fights downtown is because of the very police presence you deplore. I'd rather pay more for safety than skimp on the NPD and have gangs running the Riverwalk and fights after the bars let out every night.

You want to save money? Cut city services such as the Christmas tree pick up. Cut curbside leaf collection. Cut the Christmas lights in downtown. Cut some parades. Cut some races and runs. Cut some fests. Cut the nice, but unnecessary services. But don't cut police manpower.

Given the season, my cockles are certainly warmed by City-hired gun Soto's assertation that he will fight the lawsuit to the bitter end!!!

Of course, he does NOT mention he will be using OUR hard-earned money and that he will be charging US around $375 per hour for the whole ordeal!

He glibly reminds us it will cost at least $1 MILLION just to get through the court system (remember! This number does NOT include the cost ot city employees beieg deposed, etc.) He never tells us what it will cost if he is wrong and the case is lost (again, OUR money)

He liberally drops references to "the taxpayers money this, the tax[payers money that", yet he neglects to point out that the largest portion of this taxpayer money he references will be goping to him and his firm.

Domo Arigato, Mr. Sotos. Has the Bentley catalog arrived yet?

To John Q.:

For the civil case, DF does NOT have to prove he didn't hit Officer Hull--- that has already been done for him in the criminal case! In short, he does NOT have to prove a negative. His case will be based on two issues, I suspect: false arrest (knowingly), and retaliation.

IMHO, the criminal case data would appear to hand DF the first issue (right or wrong --- I am NOT commenting on what happened, only on what the results of that case will mean to the civil case). The second was a much tougher sell BEFORE the Council went ahead with a censure (and the little Mayor's move of NOT letting DF speak on his own behalf was an especially arrogant move).

To Jim & Wife,

Newsflash! As a clarification, there are no legal issues anymore with DF's behavior ---- only censure issues!. The remaning legal issues are with the City's behavior.

Marilyn,

Having been a frequenter of the Friday/Saturday nights in DT Naperville for almost a decade, I can tell you that the reason things rarely get out of hand down there is directly a result of having so many officers all over the place. DownTown would be a place no one would want to go to (or live in) without their numbers in full force. A ratio of 2 officers to thousands is a very bad ratio to have especially with some of the types that drive in and hang out down there. This includes Ex cons on their custom stretched 2 wheeled Vroom Vroom's and overly hormonally charged high schoolers/college kids trying to cop a feel on anything female that comes within a certain radius to them not to mention the lovely testosterone demonstrations of inexperienced drivers thinking that doing burnouts right near hundreds of people on a crowded street is a smart thing to do.

To expect an apology and payment because of this incident with the police officer is ridiculous. Innocent people are arrested every day, they have their day in court and are given a judgement. Why should DF be any different? He should have left well enough alone with the conclusion of the court in this case. I don't know any of the parties involved, but at the time was glad when DF won. How wrong I was. Now after the verdict, he has managed to prove his aggressive stop-at-nothing personality which makes me question the courts original verdict. His recent behavior makes me sure he did mess with that officer. I truly hope it was worth it to him to tarnish his reputation beyond repair. He presents himself as a champion of the taxpayer, but will stop at nothing when it benefits himself. How sad. Get over it DF. You should have left well enough alone after the court verdict.

Todays headline tells it all about Councilman Furstenou A GRADE SCHOOL BULLY.
A person who's elected job is to establish policy not enforce it.

This man should not be elected to any public job every again.

I went to a couple of City Council meetings. It quickly became evident to me that Furstenau had some gripe against the Police as he would constantly make negative comments regarding the Chief's report. I was surprised as I figured the Chief of Police deserved some professional respect even if you disagree. It is the respect to be shown the office.
Posted by: Chuck Mackey | December 27, 2007 12:51 PM
==================================================================
Dear Chuck Mackey,
Asking the police chief to control his costs in order to save taxpayers money, is not a "gripe" against the Chief. Furstenau is firm in wanting cost reductions. He was firm before the water commission and saved us over 8 million dollars.

When police have as much "legitimate" overtime as Furstenau is alleging, one solution would be to retain more officers to avoid overtime. It is alleged that 50% of the top paid city employees are cops. This raises concerns for me and all taxpayers.

I live in the downtown area and I see an excessive police presence in the downtown area especially on Friday and Saturday. Sometimes you can see a dozen cops just W. of Washington on Chicago Ave. For the most part doing nothing but observing! There is really no need for all these cops as there is rarely an altercation. And if there is one, I am sure 2 cops can handle it assisted by security guards or doormen at the clubs until back up shows up if needed on a rare occasion. So here is an example of paying 10 cops unnecessarily. Eliminate 10 cops including their benefits and overtime and you just saved a million dollars to TAXPAYERS.

If Chief Dial feels a need for a lot of security downtown because of the bars, I suggest he ask each bar owner to provide an outside security guard at his/her expense for each 100 patrons, since it is their specific problem and not the taxpayers in general. One downtown bar owner in Council Chambers once claimed his patio generated $80,000 of revenue during each summer weekend while protesting some patio seating regulation. Well, if he is making this kind of money, he should provide outdoor security as well as indoor security at his expense...not the taxpayer's expense!

In other towns the bar owners provide both indoor/outdoor security with policemen doing their normal rounds. Not camping on Chicago Avenue full time, giving around the clock security to bar owners and their patrons at TAXPAYER EXPENSE.

I am sure DF's police overtime complaints are due to incidents such as these. As a taxpayer, I have been notified that my tax bill is going up 1300 dollars this year despite a decline in the value of my home. This police overtime as well as this nonsense litigation all contribute to my TAX BILL. I am fed up, needless to say!

We all commended DF for going after the Dupage Water Commission to save us over 8 million bucks. But if he asks a Police Chief to cut his expenses, somehow he is "GRIPING" and not giving the Police Chief professional respect. Chief Dial is a tough man and can handle constructive criticism. If he could not he would not be Chief. But I agree with DF that the Chief needs to reduce his expenses. And he should start by asking downtown bar owners to provide their own outdoor security if in fact it is needed to the point of a Police Army being out there on weekends.

Downtown bar owners generating 80k of revenue on weekends from their patios are being subsidized by the TAXPAYERS. This must stop! We built huge garages that allow their patrons mostly from out of town to park free of charge with TAXPAYER funded garages. It is obvious that downtown businesses and especially the bars don't pay their fair share of taxes. The least they can do is take over outdoor security and free the taxpayers of unnecessary police overtime.

Security guards only cost bar owners $10 an hour. Police officers cost taxpayers $50 an hour or more when counting benefits and overtime. Not only does it cost 5 times as much, but it is not the responsibility of the TAXPAYER. It is the responsibility of the clubs jointly with thousands of patrons to foot the bill for this security.

Maybe DF does not know how to articulate himself very well. Maybe he is a little angry because he feels he keeps repeating himself to the Police Chief and never gets any results. I am sure he repeated himself and showed "anger" towards the Dupage Water Commissioners until we got excellent results.

DF is not about squeezing money from the taxpayers. He is about saving the taxpayers money. Yes, he went to 60 water commission meetings without pay. Does this sound like a man who worships the DOLLAR BILL in his pocket? Not to me! Those who claim he is suing to line his pockets are so misguided.

DF is suing so future residents can disagree with City Hall without fearing repercussions. DF was around in the Napegate Era and undoubtedly worked with that group. He knows from that experience what City Hall will do to you if you don't agree with them...if you are not a so called "Yes Man!" He obviously came to the conclusion that nothing has changed since the Napergate Days and plans on doing something about it. It is unfortunate that the only way he feels he can bring change is thru the court system.

In summary, I would personally and politely like to ask Chief Dial to consider making some cuts to his budget for the NEW YEAR of 2008 which is right around the corner. Let us see if POLITENESS can get the budget cuts that DF's "GRIPENESS" could not. Maybe, it is all about how you ask! Let us see! And with the city installing cameras to ticket drivers at intersectons, I am hoping we will need less cops and not more to compensate for cost of these ROBOTIC COP CAMERAS. Robots in car factories replaced many factory workers! Will robotic cop cameras replace many police officers or is this an additional expense to the TAXPAYER? Only Chief Dial has the answers for now...but at some point he needs to share his answers as he will be held accountable by the TAXPAYERS!

I said it once, and I will say it again...Lets have DICK and Ofc. Hull submit to a polygraph test...I bet Mr. "I never slapped, touched, belted, punched, backhanded, strangled, choked, karate chopped that officer" Furstenau comes out as the LIAR!!!!

Bob S. wrote: "Being a fan of the legal system and cases as they settle, on the surface it appears that DF has a great case --- period. No matter how much some folks dislike him, or how much he does or doesn't buly others, the City's case against him fell apart like a house of cards."

How do you figure? The criminal case against DF "fell apart" because the prosecution could not prove it's case beyond a reasonable doubt. The standard for a civil case though, is a preponderance of the evidence. This means that DF will now have to prove that it is more likely than not that he did NOT strike the officer. If he can produce credible witnesses who saw the entire altercation, well, bully for him---especially given that the other side apparently has no eyewitnesses;
but if Furstenau also has no witnesses, then he will be out of luck.

Moderator,

Thanks for responding saying you won't post my comment about my wife and I witnessing Furstenau's bullying behavior. You are correct, it has nothing directly to do with the current legal issues, but it ties in directly with why there are legal issues and censorship (Furstenau's behavior pattern).

Further ... yes ... it can be independently corroborated. You ask for an email address to post; you have mine. You can contact me as I know who the manager was (and is, as she's still employed in the new incarnation of Brickhouse).

Not sure what you mean when you say "ethically, I can't post it". It wasn't mistaken identity. Clearly, it's one person's story (mine) on an internet blog. If people want to believe it, fine. If they don't, that's their right. It's the same as everyone else's post, except mine was an eyewitness account of the behavior of an elected official. To me, that's as valid or moreso than someone's opinion.

The people of Naperville should have the right to know what kind of elected officials they have. To be sure, I know and my wife knows. As does the female manager who was subjected to Furstenau's abuse.

Jim Lynch, Moderator
With due respect also to you, the Naperville Sun is also a taxpayer. You have a very large building located on Ogden Ave east of the tracks within the city limits of Naperville. You are not exempt from Real Estate Taxes to the best of my knowledge. Some gal earlier on these blogs computed these attorneys are costing us $111.11 per household. I am sure your taxes are many multiple times that of a home. So your newspaper has a duty to participate and help us keep real estate taxes down for both homes and business. I am assuming the Sun is a good corporate citizen. Also, I assume many of your employees are tax paying Naperville citizens.

Many attorneys do not charge in high profile cases that are heavily publicized. Example in the 2 Peterson cases(California and Bolingbrook), the attorneys took the case free of charge because they knew the publicity would get them new clients and 15 minutes of fame. Many attorneys do not charge their clients for media interviews. It benefits them by promoting their names...not their clients who are benefited mostly by silence! How is Jim Sotos benefiting the Naperville taxpayers by blabbing about this case and probably tipping off the defense? You would think for a million dollars the city could get an attorney who could keep his MOUTH SHUT until the proceedings, unless he is working towards getting a settlement behind the scenes and not in the media glare which is always counter productive. Attacking DF in the newspapers just decreased the chance of a settlement substantially and increased Mr. Sotos chance of cleaning our pockets for upwards of a million dollars he is counting on. I am sure Mr. Sotos is a smart man and that was his goal.

Most attorneys have a major internal conflict of interest between representing their clients to the best of their abilities as opposed to fattening their wallets. A quick settlement in any case means the attorneys makes little to no money. Attorneys like to make big bucks as evidenced by what we are seeing right before our eyes.

Did the City of Naperville bother to CAP Jim Soto's fees? Probably not!!! Did they bother to ask him NOT to talk to the media at their expense? Probably not!!! Did they give him an incentive to settle this case quickly and out of court for less than the million he is contemplating??? Probably not!!!

Yes, it is NOT the primary duty of the Naperville Sun to watch our legal expenses. If I was not having my second glass of wine I am sure I would have indicated correctly it is the primary duty of the City of Naperville to make sure their hired guns are not roaming the newspaper circuits giving interviews and charging us taxpayers 300-400 dollars an hour to learn such things that the city estimate of 400k for legal expenses is wrong and it will be UPWARDS of a MILLION dollars. Can anyone blame me for having a second glass of wine when I realized the impact on my property tax bill? I doubt I can go to my boss and ask for a raise because of the WASTEFULNESS OF MY CITY to cover my higher RE TAX BILL!!

And for those who don't know Attorneys like Jim Sotos probably charge for TRAVEL TIME. So if his round trip was for a little over 2 hours and he met with the Sun for an hour, he charged us TAXPAYERS 1000 dollars. How insane that the City of Naperville would give him the GREEN LIGHT for such a WASTE of TAXPAYER money. More is on the WAY! Watch out TAXPAYERS!!!

I was around in the Napergate Days and I see a complete duplication with every mistake made there made here. That was a little worse because they had an 8 or 9 person legal staff and they chose to hire 2 large Chicago legal firms while there was no Conflict of Interest in the Napergate Case. Apparently here the justification is a Conflict of Interest to retain 2 outside legal firms. The damage is EQUIVALENT though in both cases! How many bloggers in the last 2 months warned us that this sounds like Napergate dejavu as related to expense to fight the battle? Easily over a 100 and now we have Attorney Jim Sotos telling us the NAPERGATIANS were right all along and the city estimate of 400k was BLATANTLY INACCURATE if not DELIBERATELY MISLEADING!!!

In the Napergate the city would not lick its losses at some point and settle. Yes, they finally did not go the Supreme Court but that is because everyone knows the Supreme Court takes less than 1% of the cases and if the case was taken the chance of winning was 0 to NIL. Here we have the same scenario. The city is not willing to lick it's losses to the tune of a 100k and move on. THE 1OOK COULD BE MADE CONDITIONAL TO DF SHOWING A NEW RESPECT TOWARDS EMPLOYEES AND I AM SURE HE WOULD AGREE TO THAT. An apology to DF would not be necessary as people can read that 100k settlement any which way they want to, allowing both sides to be PLEASED by interpreting it differently! If this proceeds to litigation, whether the city wins or loses, the taxpayer is going to take a bath. That is a FACT and both sides confirmed it to the Sun.

If DF had some anger issues, he showed he can control himself upon being warned. I watched the last City Council meeting and paid extra attention to DF. He showed no anger despite having all his fellow City Council Members against him on top of everyone heading a City Dept. If he had no control, he would have blown up right then and there. It was the ultimate test and DF passed his Anger Management 101 Final Exam.

If there was a lesson to learn, it was learned by both sides. So what is the point of making us taxpayers pay for egos on both sides.

The Naperville Sun has a duty in this case. I recall vividly in the Napergate Era the Sun was writing Editorials asking both sides to "Bury the Hatchet." I think the editorials influenced the City to come to its senses and avoid a final battle in the Supreme Court.

In this case with all due respect, the Sun is pouring flames on the fire on a daily basis. Blogging is at all time high and I am sure readership is skyrocketing. At what point are we going to have an editorial titled, "Bury the Hatchet" as we did in Napergate. The Sun was very late then as the taxpayers suffered millions of dollars before the editorial finally came that helped both sides smell the Java beans instead of the fermented grapes.

Can the Naperville Sun do a little better this time and run the "Bury the Hatchet" editorial before the taxpayers including itself, take irretrievable losses.

Ameena
PS. I apologize for drinking and writing earlier. I quoted Martha instead of Elizabeth and blamed the Naperville Sun primarily instead of the City of Naperville. At least you can not get a DUI for writing and drinking!!! Thank Goodness!!!

PS II. Finally, I would like to point out all these bloggers who are gunning for a legal battle till death do us apart, were not around in the Napergate Era and did not see the tax bill increases that we saw and experienced.

To Jim: Unfortunately I can't post your comment. You, yourself, admit that it is not directly tied to the matter at hand. The problem is that in all conscience without verifying the alleged incident that took place - and at this juncture I don't see how it could be independently corrobarated - I have no way of knowing whether it's true or not. Not doubting your word, but ethically, I can't post it. Maybe it was mistaken identity etc. I hope you see my point. I welcome your further thoughts and posts on this thread and any others. Thanks.

To Jim: Unfortunately I can't post your comment. You, yourself, admit that it is not directly tied to the matter at hand. The problem is that in all conscience without verifying the alleged incident that took place - and at this juncture I don't see how it could be independently corrobarated - I have no way of knowing whether it's true or not. Not doubting your word, but ethically, I can't post it. Maybe it was mistaken identity etc. I hope you see my point. I welcome your further thoughts and posts on this thread and any others. Thanks.

The real question here is "What will the City let us know while it's happening?"

Being a fan of the legal system and cases as they settle, on the surface it appears that DF has a great case --- period. No matter how much some folks dislike him, or how much he does or doesn't buly others, the City's case against him fell apart like a house of cards. Newsflash for all taxpayers: juries do NOT like to hear stories like this!

In other words, will they keep us informed as to the ongoing costs, including the time of employees (being paid by us) while they attend depositions and trials? The settlement (which, IMHO, is inevitable) will be public, but the drain on the public trough of the logistics will not be unless our wonderful council saz so.

Never, ever settle with DF. I don't care what it costs. Can you imagine the look on his face if he thinks he WON? I can't bear to.
No apology, No money. He will never be able to rally citizens behind him, because he's absolutely WRONG. Even most supporters of the ogre are beginning to see the psychosis involved here.

Anonymous,
The answer to what is going on, as I see it, is that we have a city councilman (Furstenau) who is upset because the city would not pay him close to $130,000.00 of taxpayer money to pay his legal fees, election campaign expenses, and to pay off his campaign suppporters who donated money for a state election he lost. He was refused, so Furstenau is retaliating through the court system. I support the city's decision not to meet his demands. That is the bottom line.

To Ameena: With all due respect, your statement.... "The Naperville Sun should only grant interviews to attorneys who promise not to charge the taxpayers"is nonsensical. When have you ever heard of lawyers not charging in a case like this? Me, never. Also, The Sun does not have the duty, in your words, "to protect taxpayers from potential sharks." We just tell the stories in a fair and balanced manner.

I believe DICK should probably move to Cicero where he could finally secure the title of President of a town. There he could have the freedom to parlay his strengths: Force and Coercion, Harassment, and profiting from multiple conflicts of interest. He could even dabble a little bit in personal loans and garbage collection. The mafia could use a stand-up guy like you in high places...DICKY LAUREN-MALTESE. It has a nice ring to it!

I don't live in Naperville either, although I worked there for many years so I have always paid attention to what's happening there. I hope no one minds if make one observation. I have always been amazed that a community as large and economically active as Naperville has only at-large city council members. For years and years there has been speculation both within Naperville and by outside observers that developers wield a great deal of influence over city council decisions. It isn't necessarily that they are on the take. It't just that when you are at-large, you can take campaign money from anyone in your community with a lot fewer questions as to why. The totally at-large situation seems to fuel the notion that influence can be bought to a certain extent in large part because there isn't a specific group of constituents that council members have to answer to. If I lived in an area of seemingly rabid growth without thought to quality of life, and all my council members lived far from the areas being affected, I too would probably be overly skeptical of some of the decisions they make and why they make them. Has anyone ever attempted to go to a district form of representation? I think it would go along way in preventing some of what is going on now. To anyone who doesn't live there the situation you are facing right now makes one wonder how your local government can function. I can't imagine how people who pay taxes there must feel.

To Moderator and Bloggers,

Sorry I was quoting Elizabeth and not Martha in my previous blog. So many bloggers blogging I am getting all the characters confused. I will try to be more precise in the future.

My apologies.

Ameena

Moderator,
Jim Sotos probably has no interest in settling this case especially when he states it will cost upwards of a million dollars. He has a great opportunity to make BIG BUCKS since he knows taxpayer money is almost limitless. Making a quick settlement with DF makes him 10k at most. Dragging this case in court makes him upwards of a million bucks. On the 3-part DF interview blog, Martha seemed to have a solution. I will just post the end of her blog. I have to wonder if Jim Sotos was one of those outside attorneys retained to help fight the Napergate Case that cost us a few million more??? Of course, I don't know for sure! City Attorneys should not be allowing outside attorneys to control this case. More so, when he talks to the Naperville Sun, he is billing us taxpayers for more likely than not for his time as is typical. Do we need to pay to hear his SPECULATION THAT HE PLANS ON HITTING US FOR A MILLION BUCKS OR MORE??? NONSENSE! The Naperville Sun should only grant interviews to attorneys who promise not to charge the TAXPAYERS! The Sun also has a duty to protect taxpayers from potential sharks!

Anyway here is the end of Martha's blog that offers a very inexpensive solution that allows all parties to save face.

"Settling this case by learning from the expense of the Napergate experience is really the smartest thing to do. With all due respect, DF does not have the talent or support that the Napergate Man had to deliver a knock-out punch against City Hall in court and public opinion. And the city does not have the credibility or righteousness to deliver a knock out punch to DF in court and public opinion. It seems the public is evenly divided and thus the parties should settle...logic on occasion does make sense!

In the Napergate case thru a series of 100 full page ads loaded with facts, the Napergate Man was able to rally almost all the residents to his cause. If you successfully rally the residents to your cause with hard facts, you somehow rally the jury to your cause. If you rally the jury to your cause with hard facts, you will get a favorable verdict. The Napergate man had video surveillance in his store that helped prove his case beyond a reasonable doubt, in addition to facts he accumalated and obtained from many sources. (Unfortunately there was no video in the punching/touching case which will make this case difficult for both sides to impress their points of view on a jury)

Neither party in this case has the needed ammunition to win. It will be a weak verdict for either side or a hung jury wasting even more taxpayer money. I think both parties should come to their senses, swallow their egos and settle this case quickly and efficently. I know no one is listening but I had an urge to write!

Finally, my suggestion is no apology but $100,000 to DF. The apology is implied with the settlement but yet allows the city to save face by not issuing a FORMAL APOLOGY! All the city has to tell the residents, is we chose to give him 100k to avoid paying the attorneys 400k. We chose to save the TAXPAYER 300k or 75% of the potential legal costs. The residents will buy this as it makes sense and EVERYONE WILL BE A WINNER!!! Is that really so hard to do....???"

I guess Matha's letter is already obsolete as Jim Sotos is stating the city misled us when they stated the case will cost 400k in legal fees. So it seems in the end the city will one day tell us we did not keep records and don't know what this case cost us just as in the NAPERGATE CASE. History does seem to repeat itself! It is very frightening!

PS. I suggest bloggers read Martha's entire blog as it explains possible conspiracty theories and how they occur silently.

I live out of the Naperville City limits, cannot vote but have been following the proceedings of the City Council and get the overall feeling that the "self rightous" grouping in the council and possibly the former City Manager are out to "get" Fursteneau but the big question in the back of all this is WHY? Something is going on and hopefully this will being it all out in the open

I went to a couple of City Council meetings in the last year due to a particular item to be discussed. Prior to these meetings I did not really know any of the Council Members. It quickly became evident to me that Furstenau had some gripe against the Police as he would constantly make negative comments regarding the Chief's report. I was surprised as I figured the Chief of Police deserved some professional respect even if you disagree. It is the respect to be shown the office. In other issues, again Furstenau was inappropriatley obnoxius in "attacking" presenters. If Furstenau is this digusted with everything about Naperville why does he not just leave? The ego is too big and Furstenau feels he has power over all of Naperville because he is a City Council member. Time to grow up Dick, you are just a City Coucil member of a town and NOT President of the United States!

Hello

This is the peoples money the coucil is playing with.
Stop this merry go round right now.
Another reason why government can't govern.
Why don't we just fire all of the council and start over.
It would be more fruit.

To Anonymous: Seemed to me it was more in the timing than anything else. Why don't we just agree to disagree.

Moderator,
What was misleading was that it leaves the impression that Furtenau did not have an opportunity to address the specific issues. He had every opportunity to do so. The mayor did not cut him off. He turned the floor to the mayor to indicate he might take more time to prepare his response, in the context of Rosanova's comments.

To Anonymous: You're right about that exchange. However, shortly after (right before the censure vote) Councilman Furstenau clearly indicated he wanted to address the issues and was cut off by the mayor and then the council went right into the vote. That's why the question was phrased that way. So, I take issue with your characterization "misleading." I hope this offers further illumination to th events.

Editors,
I found the following question during the interview was misleading: "What do you make of the fact during the Dec. 18 council meeting Furstenau offered to give his defense of the individual issues that led up to the censure, and in a perfunctory way, was cut off by the mayor, and they went into the vote? Why do you think that he wasn't able to respond?"

Right before the censure vote Furstenau was given the opportunity to respond to the misconduct claims, and asked if he had any different recollections of the events in question. He did not answer that question, or respond to the claims. He instead responsed that he helped people with their circular driveways, that the censure was just retaliation for his federal lawsuit, and other comments irrelevant to the misconduct claims, other than stating he would try to treat people with more respect. After Furstenau completed his statement, he turned the floor back to the mayor saying he might take more time to prepare a response, as suggested by Rosanova before he turned the floor to Furtenau.