Napergate

Wow, never seen anything like this before!

Quite intimidating....reminds me of Watergate!

Are you trying to give DF some ideas of how to take on City Hall instead of thru lawsuits? If that is your goal, Mr. Moderator, you are helping keep our taxes down and promoting fiscal frugal-ness! I appreciate that as ads don't cost taxpayers but lawsuits DO! Ads are also more educational!

Hahaha... I love all the hard hitting political commentary followed by coupons.

Eli,
You got to admit that his formula worked. You could say he hit 2 birds with one stone and was SUCCESSFUL! It is usually creative people who succeed in our society. It seems like he was original and creative. Kinda swam upstream while others were swimming downstream, if you don't mind me paraphrasing Sam Walton!

Thanks for honoring my suggestion, Ted, and showing us what one of these ads looks like. It makes a big difference when you show it this way and readers can see the impact it must have had in those days. I can see why Napergate was wildy popular in those days as you stated on the other thread of "Suggest a Topic."

Before DF existed the only check we had on our government was NAPERGATE. It brings back nice memories to see that AD posted.
I hope DF can fill the vacuum left by NAPERGATE..............
He seems to be succeeding! I do recall NAPERGATE endorsing him over and over AGAIN! I must say Sun bloggers have long memories!!!

Napergate was very effective in its time and acted as a Watchdog against city excesses. Mr. Furstena is doing exactly what Napergate did for us in the past.

The city hates anyone that tries to keep tabs on it. The city will attempt to frame anyone who dares to keep tabs on its spending or interfere with parachute payments.

It is absolutely no surprise to me that Mr. Furstena was being falsely charged by the City as the Napergate Man was falsely charged before him.

Anyone who becomes effective as these 2 were, will be charged by the Naperville Police with something. It is a way of saying don't mess around with us...or we will dig mud on you and find it.

Our Mayor is a former policeman and our current temporary City Manager is also former policeman. Both with NPD! This frightens me as it blurs the lines between true independence between govt. bodies and raises the issues of loyalty and conflict of interest. I hope this can be addressed by our CITY COUNCIL in the near future. It may not be a conflict of interest but it sure has all the markings of at least an APPEARANCE of CONFLICT!

DF only has one option to go to Federal Court and expose the harrassment. That is what the Napergate Guy did to stop the harassment and that is what DF needs to do. What other options are available? I guess recalling the other 8 City Council members which sounds great in theory but may not be practical in reality. I think it is high time the city learned to accept dissent and respect differing opinions and tones of voices of dissenters.

I just find it amazing that the screaming and scolding of taxpaying residents by Rosonova and Wehrli is tolerated by our officials but the possible scolding of a paid city employee by an elected official is not tolerated. When did a city employe have a higher status in society than a taxpaying Naperville Citizen. Should they not both be equal before our City Officials?

NaperGate sounded like a good mechanism to serve as a Watchdog on government.

Does anyone know why it stopped after such a long reign?

Cindy,

I agree. I found the two councilmen's outburst at the speaker to be an embarrassment for the City and the Council. It was a double embarrassment given that item N1 later that night was about another fellow councilman's reported similar treatment of others.

Thanks for agreeing with me Joe. It is hard to find anyone agreeing with anyone else these days. The point I made seems obvious but very few people can reason it as you and I have. Don't know why??

Do you agree with anything else I said or only the part about the outbursts! That speaker seemed so intimidated I recall him returning and aplogizing. Maybe he misspoke or was not clear but if the council men yelled at me like that I honestly would have cried! It just seemed uncivil!

Just out of curiosity Joe, were you around during the Napergate Era or are you a relatively newcomer to town. And by the way I agree with you it was a DOUBLE EMBARASSMENT to our fine city. I was a little surprised Mayor Pradel did not pound his gavel or whatever they call that hammer. I like Mayor Pradel but sometimes I feel he lets the council members walk all over him.
He needs to find a way to keep law and order! I beleive he was a former high ranking policeman so he probably has the ability. He's unquestionably popular but he needs to control the council just a bit more at the expense of not being Mr. Nice Guy all the time to all the people.

Jessica,
I am a long time resident and think I have your answer. The crux of his problems were with the Liquor Commissioners who just happen to be the Mayors in Naperville. You could say they wear 2 hats!

I believe former Mayor Chester Rybicki, Mayor Margaret Price, and Mayor Sam McCrane disliked his outspokeness and found ways to retaliate against his liquor license...using the police I assume. That was really the crux of his problem.

I have spoken to him about this subject and he has told me that Mayor George Pradel treats him fairly and with much respect.
He in return has a lot of respect and admiration for Mayor Pradel even though they don't see eye to eye on everything. I think getting a Liquor Commisioner like Mayor Pradel after the other 3 was a real breath of fresh air for him.

I think when Mayor Pradel was elected and his liquor problems were pretty much over, he changed his focus to development in the city and assisting residents who had no chance against very powerful developer friendly Attorney Bill Brestal. I live in Pembroke Commons and was one of many people who asked him to assist in the Spring Green development issue. If I recall correctly he changed the names of his ads to SpringGate and SouthwestGate(involved another subdivision he battled to help which I have no details on or recollection of) which signified the beginning of a battle against out of control developers who were stampeding on residents rights in that era.

I should point out that the Napergate Man also has a lot of respect for Dick Furstenau. So my guess is he is staying on the sidelines and probably enjoys being retired from politics after a 20 year plus stint that started in the early 1980s.

As the lady from Huntington Estates Subdivision wrote on this blog or another one, I know the people in Pembroke Commons really admired his efforts to fight that proposed shopping center development in a residential area on Hobson. Its back would have bordered at least a dozen homes. Stores leave the dumpsters in the back of plazas. So at least a dozen homes would have had to smell garbage day and night. It was totally mindboggling to us that Mr. Brestal would want to destroy the values of our homes with a shopping center and smelly dumpsters literally in our backyards.

My home was one of those 12 homes which would have been effected. If this shopping center had succeeded my home would have been devalued by at least 100,000 dollars. And as the Huntington Estates blogger stated he gave us all his time and brought numerous full page ads at his expense. The one posted by the Sun above is certainly one of them that I recall vividly. His home would have not been effected one bit either way as it was quite a distance away!

He seemed to be one of those unselfish people. He also seemed to want to pay back the community for all the support he got during his Liquor License battles. As was noted from a post by a moderator some 3500 people went to his store to sign a petiton to support him against the former Mayor. Can't remember if that petition was against Mayor Price or Mayor McCrane. It was one of them for sure! Mayor Pradel had nothing to do with his hostility towards the city. It was before his time. I hope no one holds our current Mayor responsible because that would really be UNFAIR!!!

Speaking of recalls there were no recalls during his times. I believe he stopped his official petition to enter it into a court record. If he would have left it up a few more weeks he could have had the needed votes to recall the Mayor rather easily. It just makes me wonder if one man can accumalte so many signatures in one little store at one location what those 30 neighbors of Mr. Furstenau could do if they wanted to have a recall. It just seems the recall slices both ways and our City Council never thought of that when voting for it on Tuesday evening. As the famous saying goes: BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR BECAUSE YOUR WISH MAY JUST COME TRUE! JUST MY OPINION!

Thanks,
Dor

NaperGate sounded like a good mechanism to serve as a Watchdog on government.

Does anyone know why it stopped after such a long reign?

Posted by: Jessica | December 22, 2007 05:37 PM

******************************************************************
I THINK MORE INFORMATION CAN BE FOUND ON THE "FREE FROM FRIDAY-SUGGEST A TOPIC" BLOG. IT SEEMS LIKE EITHER BLOGGERS ALL POSTED THEIR REMARKS ON THE WRONG BLOG OR A COMPUTER GLITCH SENT THEM TO THE WRONG BLOG. IT SEEMS ALL 20 OR SO BLOGS THERE WERE ABOUT NAPERGATE. I FOUND IT VERY INFORMATIVE.

I THINK THE MODERATOR SHOULD MOVE ALL THOSE BLOGS TO THE RIGHT THREAD. IT JUST MAKES NO SENSE TO ME THEY WOULD ALL BE POSTED IN THE WRONG PLACE AND BLOGGERS ARE ASKING QUESTIONS THAT ALREADY HAVE BEEN ANSWERED VERY WELL...INCLUDING by MODERATOR TED WHO DID A FABULOUS AND REMARKABLE JOB DIGGING UP PRACTICALLY EVERYTHING....JUST ABOUT EVERY TITLE TO EVERY NAPERGATE AD GOING BACK A DOZEN YEARS!!!

FINALLY I HOPE THE HOST OR MODERATOR CAN PUT ALL THE NAPERGATE POSTS ON THE RIGHT THREAD. CURRENLTY THE MAJORITY ARE ON THE WRONG THREAD CAUSING UNNECESSARY CONFUSION AND QUESTIONS!

Cindy,

With regards to Napergate:

I was around back then, but not paying too much attention and missed it when it was happening. I agree that there always needs to be a set of watchdogs. I think there are a number out there but I also believe they are not very well organized into a collective. The ones that I have seen that are well organized as a collective unfortunately seem to suffer from some extremism (from my point of view) and can be their own worst enemies because others can cherry pick those extreme positions and pull the rug of credibility right out from underneath them. There's a regular 'joe public' that is often commenting at Public Comment that I've grown rather fond of watching and listening to. He does seem like a lone wolf though, but whether I agree with what he's saying I like that he regularly gets up and stirs the pot. His spiel that night was about constantly subsidizing the parking situations down town and how Heaven on Seven pays less taxes than I do as a resident. He's absolutely right about a lot of what he points out, but there are a number of people who just don't like that shot of reality in the rear-end (Kind of like here too).

As for DF being 'falsely charged', I hold the opinion that he was charged because 'something' out of the 'norm' happened with tempers. He was found 'not guilty' of those charges and that should have been that. Being a miser of the tax payer's money I would have hoped he would have stuck to his principles of being 'for the people' and accepted that victory for what it is and been done with it. Now, I think it will be rather hard for him to claim to be 'for the people' while he has the power to make this all go away by telling his attorney to just drop it. But, he doesn't. So, to me, he's not out to help preserve my tax money anymore because he's causing it to need to be spent. Sad, because I actually liked DF for the same reasons I mentioned above; he stirred the pot when it needed stirring.

Dor,

I believe it was DS on the phone who said something to the effect of: The recall option would give almost anyone the ability to paralyze the city government by constantly recalling elected officials. I'm certain I don't have that verbatim, but that was my general understanding of the caution she was trying to point out and why she voted Nay. I happen to agree with that sentiment. Leave it up to the voters in the next election, where it belongs.

Joe,
If by DS you mean Darlene Senger, I must have missed her saying that. Kids screaming in the house while I am trying to watch the important council meeting. Speaking of DS, our neighborhood remembers her as one of the residents who worked with us and the Napergate Man to beat down SpringGreen shopping center. I recall another lawyer in the subdivision named Rich Strawbridge was giving the Napergate Man free legal advice on his ads in order to prevent libel and slander which can easiy happen. Finally I recall the Napergate Man working with an acitivist named Donna Rogers to launch a huge rally on the corner where the plaza was going to be built. The 200 residents were assisted by a large caravan procession of cars who just kept rolling back and forth beeping their horns with their kids holding signs out the car windows.

So you are correct they were very heavily organized. I think you mentioned to another blogger something about "extremism." I respectfully disagree on that one. His issues were simply to save his liquor license which was his livelihood and to save the quality of life by protecting our neighborhoods from large shopping centers being built in our backyards. It just does not sound vey "extreme" to me.

If you drive Hobson for the most part it remains beautiful. Not as beautiful as it once was when it was horse country with everyone owning a farm. But still gorgeous nonetheless. If that shopping center was built, we all knew Attorney Bill Brestal would have broken the ice and opened the floodgates to make that a commercial street like Ogden Avenue as the land was mostly undeveloped. I think the Napergate Man and his supporters prevented that from happening.

You can ask anyone who lives North or South of Hobson if they think his agenda was one of EXTREMISM or RADICALISM and I believe they would respectfully disagree with you, Joe! This was a very long battle and he stuck with us. While the developer did finally back down and build homes and one day care center, he reported to the residents who bought his homes that he took a huge financial loss fighting the Napergate Man. So he would be the only one who would agree with you regarding the EXTREMISM view. Of course so would Mr. Brestal! So I guess you are not alone in your thoughts....

I should point out that the community was so upset with the developer, that it took him nearly 9 years to build and sell 11 homes. I saw another subdivison on a cul-de-sac on Calvin Dr. in the vicinity sell 8 homes in less than a year. This developer just did not know what he was doing and Mr. Brestal most probably knew that but still supported him because as many had stated on these blogs he only cared about the financial statement of his powerful law firm. He never has really cared about the residents or the develpment in town. It is really sad how retains relatives and friends of City Council members so he can get their votes. I did not know until Tuesday that Rosonava's son works for him which to me is a major CONFLICT OF INTEREST!

Rosonava should be recusing him from voting on Brestal's developments. Just imagine what kind of raise his son would get if he voted against Brestal each time assuming he did not fire him!

Joe, I fully agree in what you said to me personally! My response was mostly regarding what you said to Cindy about the "Extremism" regarding Napergate and his supporters. Anyway, thanks for your comments towards me.

Joe to Cindy,

With regards to Napergate:

I was around back then, but not paying too much attention and missed it when it was happening. I agree that there always needs to be a set of watchdogs. I think there are a number out there but I also believe they are not very well organized into a collective. The ones that I have seen that are well organized as a collective unfortunately seem to suffer from some extremism (from my point of view)
__________________________________________________________________
Joe,
Regarding your statement above you state specifially that you did not pay much attention and "MISSED" it when it was happening but suddenly you have knowledge that this group was not well organized and the ones that were, suffered from extremism. Your statement of "MISSING" it but yet somehow "KNOWING" seems a bit contradictory! Please Joe, let us not spread rumors on this blog and make it a GRAPEVINE of SORTS. Bloggers seem to want it to be credible.

To be honest with you I have never seen a better organized group work within all the legal avenues and frameworks provided to them by the Ordinances of the City of Naperville.

You may not recall that the initial vote by the City Council in early 1997 was 9-0 for building a commercial development at Spring Green. After the Napergate Man collectively organised us and showed us what we had to do to to turn this vote around, we were able to reverse the vote to 7-2 against Spring Green.

I don't recall any extremism. I just remember an education process, rallying many subdivisions, bringing council members to the site and talking to them, rallies, signs posted on fences, and just an All-American battle to save residential neighborhoods from encroaching commercialism.

I think under the leadership of the Napergate Man we were able to show the council where they had gone wrong. To be honest with you I think the City Council had initially rubber stamped this development proposal without even READING it. They were just giving Attorney Brestal anything he wanted at the time. I mean they voted 9-0 before there was any significant opposition. And suddenly they all reversed themselves except for 2. What does that tell you??????????

It just tells me that they do not represent the residents who elected them unless the residents take them to task and appear before the City Council. In those days if Mr. Brestal wanted to put a landfill in the middle of Ashbury Subdivision instead of an aquatic pool, they would have approved it without READING. Either trusting Brestal or some untold loyalty to him! I am not sure! In those days Brestal seemed to be handling 99% of the development and winning 99% of the cases for his developers. I am assuming the 1% he lost was because it had an impact on the Mayor or one of the 8 city council members' homes!

I should point out that at the time neither Dick Furstenau or Darlene Senger were on the council. I really don't think either would have ever been part of the 9-0 vote. I believe Darlene was actually working with us and we were still trying to elect Dick Furstenau who lost the 1995 election. I had no direct contact with Dick Furstenau but many had stated he was helping the Napergate Man and his supporters immensely in fighting this unsightly shopping center in the middle of a neighborhood.

Anyway, that is all I can recall. Activist Donna Rogers who assisted the Napergate Man immensely in this battle, has a complete record of the battle in her home and I could contact her to get more information if anyone needs it. She left the area but I have had contact with her as someone I befriended!

As Donna Rogers became a vey successful activist, the City also began hassling her about running a legitimate and licensed Day Care center in her home. Claiming it was a commercial use of a residential home. When she was a NO ONE, the city did not care! So you can add her to the list that includes the Napergate Man and Councilman Dick Furstenau, as one who was hassled because of her success in battling for the rights of residents.

I would like to end by proudly admitting I was one of the NAPERGATE 3500 and am not an extremist of any sorts.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all.

To Cindy and Anonymous at 2:18PM Dec 23rd.

RE: extremism

I was not referring to Napergate stuff when I mentioned that. I said was not paying attention to the local political climate then. When I used the word I was referring to some of the more recent instances of some very vocal groups with members who basically just organize to stop ANYTHING from being passed, regardless of what or where it is. One in particular was in D204 where when Freshman centers were proposed they said a 3rd HS was the solution, not freshman centers. Fast forward a few years and all of a sudden the claim was a 3rd HS was not needed, insinuating that if there's a chair anywhere in the district, it counts and should be used; as if putting the overflow of an English class into the Home Economics room somehow was OK or holding science lab in the hallway was perfectly acceptable. Again, I was not referring to Napergate, just the more recent groups and those that seem specifically geared to block anything that equates into a tax. Some of those groups are very well organized, but some of their 'positions' and 'justifications' for opposing things like referendums (for instance) seem a little 'extreme' in my opinion.

Joe,
I did not mean to be anonymous. Just forgot to write my name. I hope you knew it was me, Dor.

I think you confused both Cindy and I possibly because you stated as a title "With Regards to Napergate" and this led the readers to think you were talking about Napergate.

As long as you are not calling the Napergate movement a radical or extremist movement, I have no problem with you or what you are saying.

Dor

I must say the ad looks very nicely laid out. Seems like the Naperville Sun had some good lay-out people on its staff in that print era...eh! Anything that nicely laid out will be EFFECTIVE!!!

Dear Moderator,
We have heard unofficially from numerous bloggers that their was some kind of relationship between Furstenau and Napergate.

I understand you interviewed him for 3 hours. Did you ever ask him what his version of the relationship was? Just curious!

Dear Martha:

Napergate never came up during the 3-hour sitdown with Furstenau and his attorney. It wasn't germane to the contemporary discussion. We were staying on point. Thanks.

***Below is a LTE I sent to the Sun after the Censure Mtg

"Thrills and chills were in abundance during the City Council's meeting to discuss and vote on a censure of Councilman Fursteneau.

It made for excellent kabuki theater. They laughed, they cried, they postured, they lied --- and that was just the Council! Approximately 30 folks spent the time to prepares for, and then address, the Council to ask them to not censure one of their own. There were many testimonials to Fursteneau’s character and ability as a Councilman. Others took the Council to task for moving forward with only anecdotal information and a failure as a group to look into the incidences as they occurred (it was noted that many/most occurred years ago!)

When it was over, I was shocked and dismayed! Not due to the vote. It was obvious going in that it would be an 8-1 vote to censure. No, I was shocked by the hypocrisy of the entire Council, and specifically Mr. Rosanova.

Why? Earlier in the evening during the public forum, Mr. Rosanove was physically angered by a citizen who had spoken to the Council. He rose up in his chair, began pointing at the citizen and yelling and pointing at him! The citizen was visibly cowed by this attack. Regardless of the reason, this was the textbook definition of inappropriate behavior through bullying and intimidation. It caused an immediate pause with the crowd, and I will admit that I thought twice, then thrice, before deciding to still go ahead and address the Council during the censure discussions. Then, a few minutes later, Rosanova gave a speech explaining why he must vote “YES” on the censure as Councilpersons could not be allowed to be bullying and intimidating! The irony was lost on few.

However, it did not end there! No, the other councilmen felt compelled to chime in with mini-speeches of their own. None would be outdone in the rush to prove their virtue! One, Wehrli read a specific definition of what constitutes the grounds for censure (though, for whatever reason, he didn’t just point to Rosanova and say “What he just did!”), another Fieseler, at one point actually put blame on the VOTERS for the Council needing to censure one of their own. (Darn us voters -- why can’t we just create a monarchy on the council so we no longer have to worry our pretty little heads with all of this complex government stuff!) One even admitted to not having researched the charges, but that IF they were true, then censure applied! Then, of course, he called for his pipe, he called for his bowl, and he called for his fiddlers’ three.

Finally, they came to the vote. Alas! Troublemaker Fursteneau had the audacity of hope by voting against the censure, which ruined their chance for a unanimous vote. All in all, I should have been charged admission."

Just curious why there is so much bloggin about Napergatge but never a mention of it in the print newspaper?

It just seems odd that the bloggers are painting a correlation but the Naperville Sun sees them as 2 distinct topics from 2 different eras!

Was Furtenau actually endorsed by the Napergate Party in the past as so many are saying? I like to hear my news from a reliable newspaper that has to account for its credibility to its readers, as opposed to bloggers who are anonymous and have to account to no one for their credibility and remarks!

Jackson,
It is all in the public library. The Napergate Party did not only endorse DF but also 3 others and they are all sitting on the council.

Some of these bloggers do have some credibility. I actually checked it out in the library on 2 ocassions.

Bob -

Loved your letter to the Editor. Note that amazingly, the *SUN* did not print it ! Amazing. This is the very reason why I don't *buy* the Sun anymore. I just read the letters to the editor online. The rest of the paper is junk, and the Sun reports what the city council and school districts want you to hear.

Note that their reporters never actually ask any questions; they only repeat the generic statements offered by the organizations looking for the press.

No questions, like :

- so just what is the enrollment in district 204 this year, and how does it compare to the predicted levels ?

- How does Hinsdale Central compare to our schools, and why isn't Hinsdale rebuilding it's flagship High School ?

- Why didn't Nequa or Central make the top 10 in the state, but other larger (and less well funded) schools did ?

- Why is the former City Manager sitting in his office on the afternoon of his last day writing some rant about a council member, that if true should have been turned over to either PD, attorney general, or some other law enforcement agency for prosecution ?

- Who's going to hold Rosanova accountable for his outburst / verbal assault of a citizen in the council chamber that was worse than what Dick Furstenau is alledged to have done ?

Not particularly friendly questions, but I can guarantee you you won't find them anywhere other than the letters to the editor page of the Sun.

As far as a paper goes, the Sun sucks. That's one of the reasons why the Napergate guy ran the full page adds. The Sun wasn't willing to ask the liquor commission why they were going so hard on this guy. And as it turns out, the whole thing was a scam that fell apart in court (as entrapment as I recall, or it was completely fabricated).

DF isn't doing anything other than exercising his rights. He clearly has the right to defend himself in court if needed, and especially if the city has organized a campaign against him. He's doing exactly what he should do if he has a grievance. Meanwhile, the former city manager gets a fat check for doing what he *shouldn't* have done.

Frank,

You're obviously unhappy with somebody or some things in Naperville, and if you want to direct your anger at The Sun, be my guest. Welcome to the new citizen journalism. You're enjoying The Sun right now, the online edition. You're like the lady in the old Palmolive commercials ("You're soaking in it right now!")

The Sun's letters to the editor policy, stated in the print edition every issue, states letters of 100 words or less will be considered. We simply don't have the space to print long letters. So make your point in 100 words or less if you want it in print. Or, make your point online here, like Bob did, and which we were happy to provide a platform for him to express his views to the community.

Just to run through your questions:

District 204's most recent enrollment stats can be found on its Web site, here:
www.ipsd.org/Documents/0708/EnrollmentStats07.pdf

Who in Naperville cares what Hinsdale is doing? By your logic we should send a team to Fort Collins, Colorado and report on what its City Council is up to.

Naperville Central High School was recently recognized by U.S. News and World Report for being one of the top 3 percent of high schools in the nation. We did a story on it here:

http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/napervillesun/news/707260,6_1_NA21_RANK_S1.article

You're probably confused when you asked why "Nequa" [sic] and Central didn't make the top 10 in the state" and probably were referring to this story. You probably meant to ask why didn't we do a story asking why didn't the two District 204 high schools make the list. Because we don't typically do stories about things that don't happen, we prefer to do stories about things that do happen.

I think we covered the City Manager's departure fairly extensively, and we asked a lot of tough questions, and I think a lot of people are smart enough to read between the lines and draw their own conclusions when people dodge answering questions.

As for Rosanova's outburst, we reported it, people who saw it in person or on TV witnessed it, where it goes from here is up to the people to decide. And once again, The Sun here on this blog is providing the forum for people to say what they think about what the consequences ought to be.

So, Frank, if you'd like to continue participating, I ask that you refrain from using such course language next time. We have some intelligent dialogue going on here, and I wouldn't want to see the caliber of discourse diminished by cheap shots.

Oh, and to update the old expression having to do with buying ink by the barrel, don't pick a fight with people who buy bandwidth by the gigabyte.

Frank,
As the host stated, you need to tone it down a bit. I know very little about most of your issues.

But I noticed the moderator answered all your questions except regarding Napergate which I found odd and unusual since it just happens to be the subject of this thread. I have to agree in those times the Naperville Sun was not balanced in its reporting on the Napergate Man. From the articles I read in the library they took the city side quite obviously and blatantly.

However when the tide really turned, at least editor Tim West finally jumped in and was upset with the city because of all the money they spent on this case. He did not attack the city directly, but from the tone of his language he seemed upset that the city mislead the Sun regarding this Napergate Case for a very long time.

I see the Naperville Sun as much more balanced than 10 or 12 years ago. Plus they almost print anything on these blogs as long as it is not profanity. So a lot of progress has been made.

Anyway I would tone it down and ask your question about the Napergate Man politely. I suspect if Ted was around at the time, he will give you an honest and fair answer.

But you can not bring change by cussing a newspaper out. You need to be more diplomatic. I am sure the Napergate Man had to watch his words carefully in order for the Naperville Sun to print his ads.(also to avoid slander and libel since it seems he was bordering that area) But he watched his words, got his ads printed/published and it seemed like he got his goals accomplished.

If he would have cussed on the Sun, they would not have published his ads. I believe he criticized the Sun at times but they still let the ads go thru. Criticizing is different than outright cussing them out.

At those times, I did not see any investigative reporting by the Sun to get to the bottom of the Napergate Case. They pretty much just quoted city officials and bought their story.

I think the Sun is doing a much better job these days. They brought in both Furstenau's Attorney and the City Attorney for interviews. They even gave Furstenau 3 times the amount of TIME. Those things would have never happened in the Napergate Era.

So things are really improving. I have seen nothing but fairness from moderators Jim and Ted. I have written many anti-establishment blogs and they published each and everyone of them without being edited.

My only problem with them is they can't tame this Joe guy who instigates trouble everywhere. That is the only issue that puzzles and bothers me. He causes trouble daily and they somehow tolerate him. I think he stepped over all boundaries of decency. But my hunch is one day they will finally tame him.

And finally Frank, you can be more effective if you tone it down a bit(maybe a lot). I would hate to see you thrown off these blogs before Joe because I see more eye to eye with you than Joe except for your cussing the Sun out. That will get us nowhere!!

Also Frank in case you did not notice, they even published an entire Napergate AD on this blog free of charge to the Napergate Man. As I see it Frank, things are changing slowly but surely. Have some confidence that the Naperville Sun is changing from pro-establishment to its proper role as neutral and doing a great job of it. You need to acknowledge the changes and not cuss them out for how they were or were not 10-15 years ago.

Ameena,

I believe you just have a problem with someone disagreeing with you and posting up documentation as to why they disagree with you about certain things and events.

Further, the moderator, to my knowledge said that while I may push people's buttons, I am not disrespectful to other posters.

Actually, here's the post:

"

I'm allowing Joe's comments. Yeah, he's pushing peoples' buttons but for the most part his comments stick to the topic/issue at hand and he's not overly disrespectful toward people.

Posted by: Ted Slowik, host | December 16, 2007 07:50 PM
"

Being that others have made posts calling me a 'jerk', 'moron', 'idiot' etc and I've not called anyone those.. I would suspect there are more people who like to 'instigate trouble' than myself on here. You can search for those key words to find out who posted them in the various blogs to find out who if you'd like.

Ted wrote :

> The Sun's letters to the editor policy, stated in the print edition every
> issue, states letters of 100 words or less will be considered. We simply
> don't have the space to print long letters. So make your point in 100
> words or less if you want it in print. Or, make your point online here,
> like Bob did, and which we were happy to provide a platform for him to
> express his views to the community.

Yes, but you could allow wonderful writers like Bob the opportunity to run an open editorial, as the board has done several times recently for more prominent citizens of the community. Just because Bob didn't head the committee to build support for 203's referendum (as you ran for Bob Wilson on 12/30), I think you should print his fantastic writing. It's good. Bob Wilson's editorial was 504 words.

The Sun never prints anything that is critical of the council (or the school district boards), other than in LTE. It's nothing more than a mouthpiece of those organizations. Why doesn't the Sun ask councilman Rossanova to comment on his outburst, and how he defends it against what they were occusing Mr. Furstenau of ?

That is, in short, my beef with the Sun, not with Naperville, and with a few Sun collumnists.

> District 204's most recent enrollment stats can be found on its Web site, here:
> www.ipsd.org/Documents/0708/EnrollmentStats07.pdf

Yes, and you'll notice that there's a lot of RED on that page, indicating declining enrollment. Yet the only place you will read about that is in the LTE section of the paper. Why isn't the Sun taking the school board to task because their projections are wrong ? Where are the hard hitting questions ? Again, I think this is "poor" (toning down the language to be nice) reporting by the Sun. Clearly you are aware the enrollment projections are wrong. When are you going to print something about it ?

> Who in Naperville cares what Hinsdale is doing? By your logic we should
> send a team to Fort Collins, Colorado and report on what its City
> Council is up to.

I do, because they are comparable communities as far as means, standard of living, and quality of schools. They are also literally right down the road. Yet absolutely no one in Hinsdale is suggesting they tear down Central and build a new one, yet their building is older. Why hasn't our district gone to Hinsdale to find out how they have managed their facilities so well and ours so poorly ?

...

> You're probably confused when you asked why "Nequa" [sic] and Central
> didn't make the top 10 in the state" and probably were referring to this
> story. You probably meant to ask why didn't we do a story asking why
> didn't the two District 204 high schools make the list. Because we don't
> typically do stories about things that don't happen, we prefer to
> do stories about things that do happen.

Yes, you were correct on my confusion. But I also think it's fair to expect the local newspaper to do the followup and ask the districts why they didn't make the list, when they are some of the best funded schools in the state. And schools with much less funding and facilities did make the list. Is it possibly because our school districts are not properly focused on the right curricula ? I don't know, but I think it's a fair question to ask (and one I think someone charged with covering the school districts should ask).

> I think we covered the City Manager's departure fairly extensively, and we
> asked a lot of tough questions, and I think a lot of people are smart
> enough to read between the lines and draw their own conclusions when
> people dodge answering questions.

I read the coverage of the Furstenau issues, and I didn't see any dodges on either side. But I'll go back and look again. I agree the coverage was thorough (perhaps too thorough) (except for the question that should be asked of Rosanova).

> As for Rosanova's outburst, we reported it, people who saw it in person or
> on TV witnessed it, where it goes from here is up to the people to decide.
> And once again, The Sun here on this blog is providing the forum for
> people to say what they think about what the consequences ought to be.

Yes, but I'd much rather see him answer the question in print, and on the record :-).

> So, Frank, if you'd like to continue participating, I ask that you refrain
> from using such course language next time. We have some intelligent
> dialogue going on here, and I wouldn't want to see the caliber of
> discourse diminished by cheap shots.

What was course in my language. I called your paper "junk", and I used the word "sucks". I believe both are accurate descriptions of most of the Suns reporting. That's not very course to me.

I also wouldn't call my critique of the Sun cheap shots. And I believe all of my critiques are valid commentary on what the Sun does in fact print (and choose not to ask or not to print). As I posited at the beginning of my post, it's the weak reporting by the Sun that causes people to buy full page adverts to defend themselves in public. All of the items the Napergate man ran SHOULD have been reported for free by a good reporter from the Sun. Instead he had to pay to have his opinion heard in a public forum.

I believe the Sun should offer an open editorial page once/week to allow citizens the chance to comment on things the Sun editorial board doesn't want to comment on. For example, you ran the Doug Wilson item on 12/30 which was clearly more than 100 words (504 to be exact). Then why won't you print the letter Bob wrote ?

The Sun provides a mouthpiece for the city and the school districts. Who is the mouthpiece for the citizens ?

Other newspapers (such as the Tribune) have wonderful balance on their coverage of issues. They offer both news but also critique of what's going in Chicago (and in many cases, surrounding suburbs). And their reporters actually ask hard questions. This keeps politicians and civic officials on their toes. The Sun very rarely prints anything critical of the council or the school districts, even when there is clear opposition (and good questions) to be asked of both organizations.

Frank,

Thanks for taking a more respectful tone, though I still take exception to your depiction of The Sun as a "mouthpiece for the city and school districts." Look over some of my posts in the 203 category. I objectively ask many questions dealing with 203's overcollection of taxes from the 2002 referendum, and raise issues of trust with voters. As for 204, let me ask, what is your interest in the enrollment numbers? Because if you're of the mind that enrollment projections don't support the need for a third high school, that debate was settled when voters approved the referendum. Similarly, your comments about Rosanova's outburst sound like you want us to crucify him for you and if we don't we're just a mouthpiece for the administration. I don't see it that way. It's all about perspective. You don't share our views about coverage on a number of issues, that's fine, I respect that and I will take to heart any constructive criticism you have to offer. As for the letters to the editor, I suggest you ask Opinions Editor Tim West directly why some submissions get guest columnist treatment. I'm not going to address the caliber of reporting at The Sun during the Napergate era 10 years ago when it was still evolving from a community weekly. And comparing us to the Trib is like matching a high school football squad against the Chicago Bears. I value your opinion, because every day we make choices about where to devote our resources. And if we choose to invest our time and energy exploring how economic conditions are affecting Naperville's real estate market or how Naperville commuters will be impacted if the public transit doomsday comes to pass or how health and public safety services in DuPage County will be cut back if voters reject the sales tax referendum on Feb. 5 instead of issues you consider more important, then we need to hear that. And again, right now you're expressing an opinion in a forum provided by The Sun, so it's kind of ironic you criticizing us for not criticizing school districts or the city council to your liking.

Framk,
I agree with your below quotation:

"As I posited at the beginning of my post, it's the weak reporting by the Sun that causes people to buy full page adverts to defend themselves in public. All of the items the Napergate man ran SHOULD have been reported for free by a good reporter from the Sun. Instead he had to pay to have his opinion heard in a public forum."

I was around in the Napergate Era and it killed me that someone would have to pay for a hundred full page ads to get his point across. At no point did the Old Sun, send a reporter to get his viewpoint and publish it free of charge. Not only was he a publisher of his Napergate Ads, but back in those days and before he ran a full page weekly ads promoting his liquor and video stores.

At some point when he was vindicated, he dropped all his political and retail advertising. Almost suddenly despite his stores remaining open! So I think he got fed up with the OLD SUN and dumped them probably costing them 50-100k in advertising a year. So the Old Sun suffered some consequences for mistreating him. I believe he still owns a business or two in town but I have not seen any ad in the Sun for at least 5 or 6 years. Sometimes what comes around goes around!

Having said that I agree with Ameena and Ted, that was the Old Naperville Sun. I do see some changes especially on the Internet Sun and all this blogging.

However I still feel the print Naperville Sun leans towards the Establishment, knowingly or unknowningly.

The Old Sun does have some connections to the New Sun. One being Tim West. I don't keep up much so I don't know who else is left from the Napergate Era that needs to be held responsible for the very pro-Establishment Naperville Sun in those days and the LEANING that continues to this day in modern times.

Since we are talking about writing, I just have to say that those of you referring to "course language" actually mean "coarse language."

Becky,

Thanks--you are correct, I used the wrong word.