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Downtown parking: eateries overtaxed for library deck?

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With all the attention on the election this week, few noticed the city council met. In what must have been a record-short 40-minute session conducted by a body known for often convening past midnight, the council continued discussion about taxing downtown restaurants in order to pay for a new parking deck next to the downtown library.

City leaders and Downtown Naperville Alliance representatives are negotiating how to implement a 1.5 percent downtown food and beverage tax that would generate revenue from property taxpayers.

The tax came after state lawmakers passed a bill allowing a defined-area tax to be collected. Before it can truly go into effect, the city would have to obtain written consent from 75 percent of restaurant owners in the affected areas

That council will next discuss the issue on Feb. 19. At issue is the question of fairness and excessive taxation, with downtown restaurants facing the prospect of 1.) already paying higher taxes than restaurants elsewhere in town because of two existing special service areas and 2.) paying more taxes than other downtown businesses because of the citywide 1 percent food and beverage tax.

Good grief! This might actually cause the next steakhouse chain to pause momentarily before deciding to open a restaurant in downtown Naperville.

Why don't we re-open the question, is the library deck really even necessary? With an addition to the Van Buren deck and the new Water Street deck, can't we wait and see if the Nichols Library deck will even be necessary before pulling the trigger? What's wrong with taking a few months to study the impact once those other two decks are operational? What's the harm in that?

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209 Comments

Hi, folks. Lot of vitriol flying around lately. In an effort to return an air of civility to this board I junked about half the comments today, many from people who have posted previously. Supporters of Basim Esmail and those at the other end of the spectrum--I'm reading a lot of nastiness from both sides. Let's try to refrain from personal attacks and BE CIVIL.

Posted by: Ted Slowik, host | February 9, 2008 10:11 PM

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Note from Ted:

Sarcasm aside, Susan, actually, it was the posts filled with insults directed AT Napergate supporters that made me realize it was time to move on. And you know what? With the new Napergate thread, it's more of the same. On other threads, people actually discuss issues, instead of attacking other commenters. It's fun. You should try it sometime.

Posted by: Susan | February 27, 2008 07:10 PM

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Host Ted,
I think there is a little bit of a contradication from your 2 above posts. Your first post indicates the onslaught was coming from both sides. Your second post indicates the onslaught was coming from City Supporters against the Napergate Man. This goes to your credibility just a touch.

I still have a very strong gut feeling that the onslaught was by the Napergatians against City Officials and the NPD and you stopped it because you thought enough heat was put on them.

Assuming I am right, you should have let the heat rise to a temperature that was unbearable to City Officials. Only at that point will they come defend themselves and give us their view of events.

The City rarely came out after one Napergate Ad. The Napergate Man always needed a sequence including repeating ads over and over again to raise the temperature to where he got them out. He always got them out at some point.

So all I am saying is let the water boil next time. I do believe you got one or 2 letters that crossed all borders. Those should have not been published and the rest of us should have been allowed to "CALL THEM OUT" as they say here on your blogs. The MOMENTUM that was building that day that you stopped was INCREDIBLE!

Thanks!!!

PS. This is a learning experience for all of us. I think we are all learning and will come out better because of this. But having said all I said I think you are doing an excellent job building readership on these threads. I can not recall if that 61,000 number was views for a week or since you started these threads. Either way, it seems like an awfully large number that indicates success. Keep up the good work, Ted, and have thick skin! The Napergate Man is apparently not phased by anything being said here on your threads. You should not be phased either! Just let it roll over and move on!


Moderator Jim: Nobody's fazed by anything really, including Ted. However, we all have to move on at some point. The threads are there whether it's the current one here on the home page or ones in the archive that are still alive and active. But we do step in when the conversation starts to deteriorate into tedious gutter snipes at each other. Thanks for the input.

Susan,

Thanks, but so far I haven't needed to have Ted "save" me. Unlike some of the Napergatians, I let him do his job without accusing him of bias or having an ulterior motive. Ironically, though I HAVE been accused of trying to tell Ted how to do his job by the person who is most guilty of doing that very thing.

-JQP

JQP,

I wouldn't doubt that some on here are just college kids in their 'angry anti-establishment' phase of life trying to wrap the Napergate blanket around them to give themselves more credibility. It's a disservice to the true Napergatians of the past who we've heard about were very calm, collected and purposeful in thought and not flying off the handle with anger and emotional outbursts.

Mr. John Q. Public,

I can assure you Ted was kidding! He was saving City Officials and the Police Dept. from the justified attacks hurled at them by the Napergatians.

I don't think he would step in to save the Napergatians from attacks as they are well adapted at fighting any attacks thrust their way.

He has no need to save the Napergatians who are great at defending their positions, their selves and their leader. But he needed to save City and Police Officials who have refused to defend themselves up to this moment in time. So you don't have to worry about Ted. He was doing exactly as you expected him to be doing, Mr. Public! Have no fear, Ted will aways be there for you and your friends when you need him! He will never let you guys down!


Note from Ted:

Sarcasm aside, Susan, actually, it was the posts filled with insults directed AT Napergate supporters that made me realize it was time to move on. And you know what? With the new Napergate thread, it's more of the same. On other threads, people actually discuss issues, instead of attacking other commenters. It's fun. You should try it sometime.

"Yeah, but I did it to save the Napergatians from the insults and attacks being hurled at them, and in return all I got was grief. That's gratitude for ya."

Ted, I hope you were kidding when you wrote this. The Napergatians have been dishing out at least as much as they've been taking on this thread.

T.B.,
I think the there is overlap in that 14,600 strong. If you divided it in 2 you probably have a more realistic number of 7,300.

I do believe the Napergatinas and their sympathizers are growing again due to the Furstenau and Napergate Man arrest cases.

City Hall and the NPD can be blamed for the growth and resurgence of the Napergatian movement.

As Council Man Siddal said let the lying dog remain sleeping. They go arrest the Napergate Man over nothing and wake up the lying dog and a huge herd of other dogs(humans no pun intended).

Regarding Maryann's numbers they do make sense and are logical.
The Daily Herald has been around for a very long time and pretty insigificant in Naperville but strong in the NW suburbs.

I think the Naperville Sun has always controlled its fate. It has never had a serious competitor that could penetrate town. Dozens have tried but failed within months and always before a year was up.

So I think they have to take responsibility for the decline of a potential 33k to 15k. Soft journalish will aways do that. No doubt losing the Napergate Ads hurt the Naperville Sun immensely. Having both Napergate and the Naperville Sun all wrapped up in one newspaper, made it the best local newspaper in the entire Chicagoland area. You got everything you paid for and a little extra.

It is more than a pure coincidence that the Naperville Sun declined 54% after the Napergate Era while the rest of the nation only declined 13%. While it is not the only factor, I have no doubt it was the largest factor causing the decline. I believe the 13% was all the internet factor. After that the (difference of 41%) we are talking about issues unique to the Sun.

I would believe that Host Ted and Moderator Jim would agree that the loss of the Napergate ads did have something to do with the decline of the Naperville Sun. If it had nothing whatsoever to do with this massive decline, I believe they would be hard pressed to come up with any good reasons. Ted and Jim seem bright young men who are very competent. I would not want to believe their incompetence caused the decline. I am sure it did not! It was something they had no control over....the Napergate Man simply decided to retire after 20 years of running these political and Napergate Ads. He also stopped running his weekly full page liquor ads which were filled with coupons and that had to be at least another small factor. People loved coupons in that Napergate Era more so than today.

But having said this, I agree with the previous blogger who stated Jim and Ted are really trying hard to get this paper and its blog site going again. I am willing to put odds that they will succeed.

No one can dispute this blog site caught fire. Notice how hard hitting the blog site has been. People love it! Once they translate their success to the Print Editiion, they will have that 33,000 cirulation. It is just a matter of time.

As long as they cater to both Napervillians, Napergatians, establishment and non-establishment and let them go at each other throats, they will end up succeeding big time.

They need to hire a few columnists that have the Napergatian mindest to counter balance those with the Establishment mindset. Both varieties will sell better than one. I am sure you have heard the saying variety is the spice of life. It also applies to newspapers.


Moderator Jim: Thanks for the kind words...but given the frequency of publication then and now you're really comparing apples and oranges i.e. we're a daily paper now and weren't at the time of Napergate. And if you're talking vvariety and going against the establishment, jujst take a look at some of the columns I've written in opur Friday paper.

Ryan –

You may think Maryann tries to be factual, while I actually think she writes more based on assumption and emotion.

Maryann was complaining about the library thread as well as the former Napergate threads. She stated earlier that the library thread had become a de facto Napergate thread since nobody disagreed on the issue of the library. All the discussion had turned to the Napergate topic.

Plus, she was very premature in criticizing Ted because, as happened in the past, as one thread fell off the main page the Sun put another Napergate thread up.

I have no desire to attack anyone, let alone Maryann. If you actually read what I post, you will see that I go out of my way to not attack people, I detest attacks, and even have defended people I do not agree with because they were unjustly attacked.

Do you think Brenda needed to be called lazy simply for disagreeing with 99% of the posts in this thread? Yet the Napergatians see no wrong done to her and no need to apologize to her. The first rule on these threads seems to be that if you disagree with the Napergatians, they will come at you with everything they can throw. I’m not talking about facts, Ryan, I’m talking about vicious personal attacks.

I actually think your circulation analysis is very interesting, though I don’t have the time to check your figures. However, if you accept that the Sun’s circulation declined faster than the national average, the question then becomes “Why?”. Surely you’re not going to say that the faster circulation decline was based solely on the Napergate issue without any facts, are you?

Were other daily papers introduced in that time period? For instance, was the Herald in the area at the time or did it come along at a later date? What was the rate of internet usage in Naperville? Are there other factors?

Absent facts, your analysis is nice, but doesn’t show why the drop happened.

Wait, so now the Napergatians are 14,600 strong (3,500 + 3,500 + 7,600)?!? If we post here often enough, the entire city will be Napergatians.

T.B.

All this debate about the threads puzzles me. Wouldn't you rather debate the issues? The threads are merely a platform for you to voice your opinions, vent your anger, display your debate skills, whatever. I'm more comfortable sharing ideas about actual issues than talking inside baseball. To me, all this talk about threads is a distraction--a sideshow.

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Mr. Ted,
I agree with you. We should be focused on the issues.

I think when people were venting their anger in Napergate Continues you chose to remove it off the Main Page before its time was up when you machine gunned 5 new threads in a nanosecond.

If you would have let it take its natural course to death or off the Main Page, it would have never been an issue.

If you get one or 2 bad letters, you just don't post them. You don't manipulate the removal of an entire thread because of one or 2 bad posters. Thus you allowed one or 2 bad bloggers to deprive the rest of us the right to vent our anger against City Officials and the NPD.

So this only became an issue because you unintentionally made it an issue. Most people were really focused on the issue at hand until you knocked the thread off before its time. Way to obvious as many have noted!

It seems to me like a few others mentioned you were trying to take the heat off the city. You and Moderator Jim have rarely not posted a letter. Why would you suddenly receive so many obscene or profanity laced letters in the span a few hours? Most bloggers I presume doubt the Sun could suddenly receive so many unusual letters in a few hours when it had only received a few of these since the inception of the blogs 8 or 9 months ago.

Since you guys were posting d. bone INSANITY, one really has to wonder what these letters could have been about not to be POSTED?


Note from Ted:

Yeah, but I did it to save the Napergatians from the insults and attacks being hurled at them, and in return all I got was grief. That's gratitude for ya.

Ryan, here is some constructive criticism:

See a psychiatrist about your Freudian slip. There may be a lingering Electra or Oedipal complex going on too. Left unchecked, it will really ruin your adult life when you reach it.

Maybe someone in town will offer a group rate for the other personalities on here that feel compelled to post similar juvenile things.

T.B.,
You have been a little rough on Maryann. She tries to be factual!
I think she suggested that the library thread would have done better for Ted's numbers than the piano men in the Main Page. Just observe and you will see she is right. All she was saying is why not take a thread down that only had one post on in 2 weeks as opposed to one that had 19 or 20 the last day and still had steam. She was trying to help Ted. She never said Ted was pressured to remove the library thread.

She indicated pressure may have been applied to remove the Napergate Threads and not the library thread. There has always been pressure against anything Napergate by City Officials. This is well known in our community and has been established.

As far as decline the Naperville Sun declined from 22,000 to 15,200. This is a 31% decline compared to the National Average of 13%. This is almost 2.4 times the National Average of Newspaper decline based on what you published from the Newspaper Association of America.

If you factor in the National Population grew 5-10% in that period, while the Naperville Population grew 50% in that period, we really have a decline from should have been 33,000 subscribers(1.5 times 22,000) to 15,200 which is a 53.94% decline. In essence the decline in the Naperville Sun has been 4 times the National Average.

Basically the hard core numbers prove Maryann right and you wrong. We have an additional 54%(Sun Decline)-13%(Nat'l Avg decline)= 41% decline that is above and beyond the National Average.

I do believe the very soft journalism of the Naperville Sun in the past, which included avoiding topics like Napergate contributed significantly to this huge and enormous decline.

Having said that I believe Host Ted and Moderator Jim are in the process of turning this Exxon Valdez ship around. They have increased the readership 1000 in the last year after that horrific decline of the prior 10 years. They have shown boldness in covering the Napergate Man, Napergate issues and other hard core and controversial issues. They are doing a good job of getting away from soft journalism and in my opinion being braver by the day.

The difference between you T.B., and Host Ted/Moderator Jim is that they are not in DENIAL. They know there is a problem and they are fixing it. And they are succeeding! And Maryann has given them good ideas that have helped their progress.

Instead of just attacking Maryann, why don't you try to give them some constructive criticism as Maryann has. It seems like you are more interested in following the footsteps of "JOE RISE" instead of being a productive member of Ted's Threads!


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PS. I do believe that the two 3500 groups of Napergatians were 2 distinct groups with some minor overlap. One group was mostly his retail customers mostly from south of 75th St. The other was mostly 12 subdivisions north of 75th St. uniting together under his leadership to defeat both Spring Green and the S.W. corner of Naper and 75th St. If you followed the hundreds of bloggers carefully you could tell that most members of one group did not know members of the other group and in some cases did not know other battles existed that the Napergate Man was involved in. In addition to being a regional separation there was a TIME separation. One took place 5 years before the other. Of course there was some overlap but they were two distinct groups. It just shows you this Napergate Man knew how to get a grass roots movement together. And it even appears, those 7600 ATT employees were yet a third distinct group that Napergate Man rallied in yet an earlier time period than his liquor and development groups.

The bottom like is this Napergate Man was very skilled in rallying and firing up residents no matter which way you try to slice it. And if people have a desire to learn from his past successes, they should be allowed to. Unless, we admit we are failing in our battles against City Hall since he retired, we will also be in denial and not be able to turn our own Exxon Valdez!

I think there is a deep desire both by the residents and the Naperville Sun to turn around their respective Exxon Valdezs!

Note from Ted:

Look, there's never been any pressure from anyone in the city to remove any thread from the blog. The only pressure to remove a thread is coming from people who want threads removed in order to keep another thread on the home page.

Why should I cave into special interests, regardless of where they're coming from? Eventually, activity on every thread is going to run its course. It just seems that some people have trouble letting go.

Most threads typical will stay on the home page about two weeks. That's plenty of time. If the thread is about a topic that many people are interested in, and there's a new development in that issue after a particular thread has passed from the home page, chances are we'll start a new thread about that topic.

All this debate about the threads puzzles me. Wouldn't you rather debate the issues? The threads are merely a platform for you to voice your opinions, vent your anger, display your debate skills, whatever. I'm more comfortable sharing ideas about actual issues than talking inside baseball. To me, all this talk about threads is a distraction--a sideshow.

Maryann –

You are entertaining, aren’t you?

Yes, I’m sure the city was so afraid of the library thread that they pressured the Sun to remove the thread from the main blog page. I’m sure the city would never stand to hear from 78 or so (using Joe’s number of unique IDs on this thread) opposing views.

Or, just maybe the thread was old, stale, deteriorating, and useless since there was no debate regarding the library? We all agreed that the library parking garage was a bad idea…what was the usefulness of discussing it further?

So not the Napergatians have now grown from 3,500 to 7,000? What’s your basis for stating that the two groups of petitioners were mutually exclusive? Just because the petitions were separate, how can you assert that many (or possibly all) of the same people signed them both?

Do you really think the Sun’s readership has declined do to all things Napergate?!? Could the Sun’s drop in circulation have had something to do with the overall circulation drop nationwide? Could the drop have had something to do with the start of the digital age, with more people receiving their news via the internet or cable TV? Well, just FYI, the Wall Street Journal reported on May 2, 2005 that “Daily circulation of American newspapers peaked in 1984 and had fallen nearly 13% to 55.2 million copies in 2003, according to the Newspaper Association of America.” I doubt circulation has picked up significantly since 2003.

Ted has graciously published many posts much more critical of the Sun than your own. I think you did him a great disservice by suggesting your post was withheld for reasons other than the fact that maybe he had better things to do at 5:54 pm on a Sunday night.

Finally, the Napergate issue is interesting history. It’s arguably a compelling story of what an out-of-control city can do to a person, and also how one person’s will can galvanize the citizenry to action. Past that, I think you’re overstating the current influence of the Napergate issue on the city as a whole.

T.B.

Note from Ted:

Actually, we're proud to say that contrary to the national trend The Naperville Sun's circulation is actually up about 1,000, or nearly 7 percent, from where it was a year ago. We editors like to think we're delivering Naperville readers local news, features and sports they care about. That same judgment is seen here on this blog, where we offer a variety of topics for discussion, and where we strive the keep the content fresh and relevant.

The reason why this thread is done is because only ONE person wanted the parking garage...no need to keep a thread going if everyone agrees with it...the people voted and no one on this thread wants the parking garage...case closed. Ted is right, this thread turned into one personal attack after another...so why keep it open?

Moderator Jim,

When you were off or on vacation, Host Ted added 5 quick threads quickly to get the "Napergate Continues" thread off the Main Page. Most of the threads added were failures or of little interest to most bloggers.

His actions were very atypical and blatantly obvious.

If you look at the Main Page today he has added 8 new threads in 12 days which is very typical of his patterns.

So what he did when you were away was try to protect the City of Naperville from the bashing it was getting from the Napergatians and Napervillians jointly.

The City was getting a very good bashing and was not coming out to defend itself. Host Ted took it upon himself to take the heat off the city by getting the Napergate Thread that was holding them accountable off the Main Page and diffusing the situation.

Host Ted underestimates the intelligence of his bloggers. Maryann is very good at noticing and pointing out such occurences and the rest of us can see it very easily after she points it out.

Host Ted was really leaning towards the city at the time. He was even defending the Police Dept. that was not defending itself. I think when someone is not willing to defend themselves, they are guilty and are just hoping it will go away quicker in the absence of a defense.

It did seem Host Ted was catering a little too much to defending City Officials and the NPD. I have noticed after the bashing he took from the Napergatians he has aligned himself to neutrality in a way one can respect him a lot more.

Of course, only time will tell if the heat rises on the City again if he will remain neutral or try to protect them again!

Note from Ted:

Eric, as I explained at the time, the discussion was deterioriting into a series of personal attacks. I did what I thought was best to keep the conversation civil. I was tired of all the name-callling and insults being thrown around. It worked. You're welcome.

This thread ranked No. 7 in terms of activity last week, barely above the "Cast your vote in our 203 referendum poll" thread from Jan. 29!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Host Ted and Moderator Jim,
Could you guys possibly check on your computers. I was able to verify that "Cast your vote in our 203 referendum poll" did in fact not have a single post in the last 15 days as Maryann stated. In the 13 days on the Main Page the Library Thread had 187 posts.

So when Ted says the Library Thread barely beat it out, when it was 187 to 0, one has to question the accuracy of the Naperville Sun computers or the Sun's possible lack of expertise in interpreting the data.

I would like this issue Maryann brought up addressed and not ignored if possible.

We are all are interested in the REAL success taking place on the Sun Blogs and would like to be given accurate information as a way of measuring how effective these blogs will be in holding our City Officials or School Boards accountable. I am assuming the council and boards read them, of course!

Thanks for your attention to this matter!

PS. Ted, I am posting a second time because I noticed my post did not appear while posts of later times appeared.

Moderator Jim: Not quite sure what all this is about, but we'll look into it.

Note from Ted:

Eric, here's a reply I made earlier today to Maryann, that addresses your question:

Note from Ted:

Hey, Maryann. No mistake, My data came from a web traffic report and has nothing to do with the number of comments a thread receives. The traffic reports would indicate the popularity of a thread by including the number of people who read a post without commenting.


Posted by: Maryann | February 24, 2008 05:54 PM

You have to wonder about the mental stability of an 'anonymous' poster who tries to make Phallic jokes out of a perfectly good suggestion to Maryann. In fact, I think that now makes 6 'handles' that like to make those similar juvenile phallic jokes.

Ted,
Thanks for posting my dissenting opinions. I appreciated that!

But it does seem puzzling that the thread "Cast your vote in our 203 referendum poll" could get so many hits for viewing but yet not a single person posting.

I think that is unusual! Especially not one post in 15 days.

It seems there has always been a correlation of sorts between viewing and posting. That has been my observation!

Why do you think in this specific incidient there was absolutely no correlation? Do you think it was just a freak coincidence or could the Sun computers be a little off. Something does not add up with this amazing EXCEPTION!

Do you have any ideas or thoughts why that may be so??? Does Moderator Jim have any thoughts on the subject???

Joe,
I think you should stop being a smartalic! You have more posts than anyone else on these blogs and all you do is destructively criticize anyone you can get your hands on. Almost like a sickness of sorts! Maryann seems to be throwing some constructive criticism around. If anyone should set up a blog site, it should be you so you can get RISES minute by minute from your Front Lobe to your Occipital Lobe and in reverse.

Maryann,

How about this idea: Start your own website with your own blogs and forums and file download areas with all the NG material.

Ask Ted politely to devote a whole blog topic to it and you can tell everyone where it is. That will give AMPLE enough time on the front page for everyone who is interested to see it and check it out. THEN, those people can use this neat nifty handy dandy feature of their web browser called a BOOKMARK and always be able to jump right to your site and talk about all these things all the time without having to bear the burden of searching through pages and pages of blog topics on the sun website. If they really like it, some people might even make it their browser's home page so they always jump right to it every time they launch their browser.

Since it is such a hot topic it probably wouldn't be too hard to find some 'sponsors' who would purchase the domain name and cover the site hosting costs for you.

Not sure why anyone hasn't set up (or kept up) napergate.com previously, given the demand and interest. It was available a couple of months ago. Maybe even Ameena might be willing to contribute so she can gather 'research' for her book that someone said she is going to write. The minimal cost of a domain name and hosting is pocket change compared to the book advance one is certain to get, given the huge demand and interest that we keep hearing about.

Hi Ted,
Let me know if you got my post of late this afternoon/early evening or if you got it and decided not to post.

It seems like you only have a 50% chance of being posted if you critique the Naperville Sun even in the softest ways.

I spent over an hour writing it so I hope you consider posting it. If there is a word or two that bothered you we can take them out. But most of it was factual or opinion.

I hope you I did not upset you with my comment that Thread no. 8 was not a little behind the Library Thread but in fact leap years as evidenced by the facts on your Threads.

This post does not have to be posted as long as my long one is. This is just a communication to you to make sure you got my long post of about 6pm tonight.

Thanks,
Maryann...


Moderator Jim: Maryann - I'll relay your opinions to Ted. Thanks.

Note from Ted: Hey, Maryann. Sorry, didn't get a chance to check for comments much yesterday and so there was a backlog of posts to check and publish--your's was among them. The delay had nothing to do with whatever criticism you might have for The Sun.

Joe, T.B., Host Ted and Moderator Jim,
Besides being one who likes to post, I do like observing these different threads purely for curiosity reasons. I have been doing this since a few months back and both Host Ted and Moderator Jim know me from the Road Warrior thread where I began critiquing dud threads as I call them. We had some nice exchanges on that thread that was dead and I moved off I think when Joe popped up. At that time I knew little to nothing about Napergate! Barely had heard of it!

My position has always been that when a thread falls off the Main Page it usually has a sudden death sometimes gradual as in a District 203 thread with over 500 posts that did finally die on Feb 7, with no posts after that.

My observation does not agree with Ted's Observations. I observed that the Library Thread was the third most active after the 2 District 204 threads that were both 33% hotter than the Library thread.

I would like to see Ted provide us with the other 4 threads that were hotter than the Library Thread for the last week it was on the Main Page.

Ted claims about the library thread "This thread ranked No. 7 in terms of activity last week, barely above the "Cast your vote in our 203 referendum poll" thread from Jan. 29!" But the last activity on that thread was "Posted by: Anonymous | February 10, 2008 06:07 PM" which was 14 days ago.

So basically Ted made a mistake by saying what he said regarding that thread, which had NO activity in the last week, while the Library Thread probably had more than a 100 posts. I don't see how 100 posts is barely above 0 posts.

I am not sure but maybe Ted meant to say it was the 3rd busiest thread of the Naperville Sun. Maybe he was saying it was the 7th busiest in the Chicago Sun Times entire group. He was not clear. Hopefully he can be more specific and tell us which 4 threads besides the library were busier if we are just talking about Naperville Sun blogs!

Ted's recent post(Posted by: Ted Slowik, host | February 22, 2008 01:52 PM) indicates he likes to measure his performance and is excited about all the people posting in greater numbers. However he just brings his score down substantially by leaving a piano thread on for two weeks that only got one outside POST in 2 weeks and taking down a Library Thread that was still getting hotter and generating 15-30 posts a day. It seems to me he did not want to take my sensical advice as he has taken it so many times in the past and maybe did not want to look like he was catering to me. Maybe I should have made the recommendation under a different name but I just don't do those kind of things as I like my identity and enjoy being credited for my good thoughts when they do make sense! Only Joe and John Q Public seems to think we all like to blog using different names. Not really true! Most Napergatians and Napervillians lost touch with this thread when it was removed off the Main Page and I have no intention of being all 80 of them...lol...I have a life Joe and John! Not sure about you guys, though!

But in my opinion he makes huge mistakes by taking off very hot duds off the Main Page and leaves dead duds on that only one or no one care about. It hurts his numbers that I am sure Host Jim and the Chicago Sun Times are looking at.

Many like to argue with me that a Thread does not die when it is taken off the Main Page. But the facts show it does die, usually somewhere between a quick and relatively slow death. This thread had 0 activity for a 25 hour period with in 24 hours after being taken off the Main Page. Yes from 20 hits to 0 hits in 24 hours.

I just think Ted should take these hot threads off when he finds other hot threads to replace them or when they start petering out on their own. I know he angered the 410 posters who posted on the 2 Napergate threads by taking those threads off prematurely while they were peaking. In the second case, he added 5 dud threads immediately to get rid of the Napergate Continues thread. It seemed obvious to me he was pressured to take it off by most likely City Officials or their supporters as was the case of Napergate V and VI. I have no clue why he took it off but it is a suspicion. But I am sure he took it off for some reason as Host Ted never added 5 new threads in a few hours. It is not his style, so my opinion is he added them to throw Napergate off the Main Page. My opinion is shared with many Napergatians.

Most Napergatians, I suspect live in District 203 and do not blog on District 204. They don't care if there kids go to Naperville North or Naperville Central. They are both excellent schools. Kids are bussed from that famous Pembroke Commons subdivision to Naperville North which is over 6 miles away. Naperville Central is only 2 miles from that subdivision! No one seems to care. That should tell you that the issues in District 204 are not about distance as everyone is pretending but about a belief or perception that Naperville is better than Aurora and Nequa possibly being a better school than Wabaunsee.

Host Ted caters to this group piling bullsh*t higher and deeper each day with their nonsense blogs that are never telling the truth about the real reasons ANGERING THEM! If distance was a real reason, Pembroke Commons which is by the far the most organized subdivision in Naperville, would have burned District 203 down by now! But distance was never the issue. It is the cover for all the underlying real issues that upset them.

In summary, it seems like Host Ted prefers to cater to bullshi**ers instead of real people like the Napergatians that fight for real issues that concern our town and try to beautify it. They try to perform the function of Watchdog on these threads that the Naperville Sun would rather not do. So it puzzles me that the Napergate Threads are treated like they are the plague and removed as quickly as they are put on it seems. This is simply my opinion but it does appear to me that is so!!!


==========================================================================================================================


PS. In following these Napergate Threads carefully, one thing I noticed is that this Napergate Man had accumulated 2 distinct groups of roughly 3500 each. One in his liquor battle and one in his Spring Green/SW GATE battle that seemed to have conjoined at some point. In each case a petition was delivered with roughly that many signatures. Once to the Courts and once to the City Council respectively. They were distinct and separate petitions. This could explain why he has such widespread support on these threads most likely from the Eastern Sector of Naperville where most of his battles were fought while it was developing. Just an observation! I don't know if he had a petition with those 7600 ATT employees that he united against City Hall to reverse a vote giving the city phone system to rival and allegedly fraudulent MCI/Worldcom.

He was involved with so many people. It is unfortunate that the Naperville Sun does not capitalize on his base of supporters to either improve their blogging numbers or to make a difference at City Hall. The Naperville Sun would have somewhere to the tune of 7000 Napergtians willing to back them up if they decided to truly play the WATCHDOG role on the City of Naperville. In due time, I have a feeling most Napervillians would also be praising the Naperville Sun for playing its WATCHDOG duty. And the result would be 3000 bloggers a week instead of 1000 bloggers and circulation numbers of 30,000 instead of 15,200 of last year. That is my opinion! I have been right in the past! The Naperville Sun has made some serious mistakes in the past or its circulation would have never dipped from 22k to 15.2k while the population of Naperville rose 50% after the Napergate Era. The Naperville Sun has failed us in the past and is currently failing us again. Most of the failure in my opinion is related to all the issues that tie to Napergate, past and present, and how the City is always covering up the truth. City Officials have made it clear, they do not ever wish to discuss Napergate or the Napergate Man. His name and movement apparently strikes some nerves in City Hall. It seems like the Naperville Sun is obliging the City of Naperville with its request to ignore the Napergate Man and his Napergatian followers.

We will have to wait to see how many more weeks before the Naperville Sun obtains that police report about his arrest in the summer of 2006. I hope it is published in its entirety so we can try to read between the lines and possible embellishment in that report. Maybe we would be allowed to post our opinion on a thread regarding that police report. My speculation would be it would be another hit thread for the Naperville Sun that will easily exceed 200 posts if the Naperville Sun does not taken it down prematurely as with all Napergate threads when the HEAT eventually comes from somewhere.

It just seems to me there is a little more interest in the Napergate Man than 2 Piano Men who could be alleged con artists or just bad businessmen. Hopefully, it was the latter! Maybe Host Ted and Moderator Jim can explain the reasons to us bloggers why there seems more interest in our town about the Napergate Man than 2 Piano Men!

And in my personal opinion, I feel the antics of the Naperville Sun have upset the Sun's no. 1 blogger, Ameena, and she is no longer bloggin with us. She was fun to have aboard. I believe we lost her. I guess we just have to wait a year or two now to read her book and all those Napergate ads and sections she was posting that were thrilling. We understand INK is expensive and the PRINT EDITION was not going to cover Napergate. But we were led to believe that gigabytes were much cheaper and we would be able to blog freely about Napergate. It seems like we are getting neither and we will be getting neither! I think when we are deprived of knowledge we all lose. Unfortunately the Naperville Sun is only one of 2 sources that has all these Napergate Ads and is unwilling to share them with its new readers and residents. They are very important as they contain the formula for a successful grassroots movement. This is obviously the knowledge that new Napervillians are lacking and why they are failing repeatedly against City Hall since the Napergate Man and his group pretty much retired.

Finally, I think either Host Ted and/or Moderator Jim have not grasped the concept that old threads that are archived are like old newspapers in a home or basement. No one is going to read them but they will be used for reference if and when the need arises. THAT IS IT!!!

Have a nice Sunday and thanks for letting me post a strongly dissenting opinion!


Note from Ted:

Hey, Maryann. No mistake, My data came from a web traffic report and has nothing to do with the number of comments a thread receives. The traffic reports would indicate the popularity of a thread by including the number of people who read a post without commenting.

Maryann -

Pretty funny, especially since I don't have $1K lying around. So if I say "no" then in your world I admit defeat? Good thing I live in the real world where people use facts and logic, and not emotion, to run their lives and make decisions.

This thread ranked #7 (per Ted, Feb 22nd at 1:52 pm), even though you admit it is more about the Napergate issue than the library paring garage. It seems people are more interested in blogging about real issues that affect their lives than about rehashing an old issue or debating what one person may want us to do.

Sorry to disappoint you, Maryann. Besides, I hate coffee. How about a Guinness instead?

T.B.

"We've got some exciting ideas for the blog we'll be sharing with you shortly."

Posted by: Ted Slowik, host | February 22, 2008 01:52 PM


Will that include a thread, as previously promised, about whether a member of city council should be voting on zoning matters when his son works for the developers' attorney?

Maybe if it stays off the main page and we each start posting under 8 different handles we can all make it magically appear like it's still a hot topic and it will never have to be put back on the main page again. We might even start having conversations with our other personalities and cheer at each of them to make them feel loved in the world and give them a purpose in life.

Let's all do it, who's with me?

If the Napergate topic is so hot, how come nobody goes to the archived threads to continue them?
Posted by: T.B. | February 22, 2008 01:03 PM

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The Napergate Topic remains very hot, steaming and boiling! Host Ted knows that! He will have his hands full again if and when he puts it on the Main Page.

Generally speaking people don't blog in the old archives as they don't read old print newspapers. Host Ted knows that and we all know that a District 203 thread was an EXCEPTION. Intensity of boggin will die off 90% within a day or 2 of a thread taken off the Main Page. I consider myself an exception willing to blog on the archives but most people are not!

If you want to put some money where your mouth is T.B., I am willing to bet you a 1000 dollars I am right.

Are you willing to bet me or are you all talk and no action?

I suspect you are the latter!

Let me know when you want to make the 1000 dollar bet. I will bring my cash and meet you at the Starbucks on Main and Jefferson.
Let me know when you will have your cash on and ready to risk it?


Hi, all, host here. It's been a busy week on the blog, our busiest to date with more than 61,000 page views! Seems like just last week we surpassed the 5,000-comment threshold and now we're rapidly closing in on the 6,000 mark (20 away!)

The 204 discussions continue to be our most popular, followed by several 203 topics. This thread ranked No. 7 in terms of activity last week, barely above the "Cast your vote in our 203 referendum poll" thread from Jan. 29!

We'll continue to try to provide something for everyone, offering a variety of topics, some of which will prove more popular than others. No one who refrains from personal attacks and profanity will be turned away, and if commenters with a common interest in a certain chapter in Naperville's past want to participate in a discussion I certainly welcome their views as well as the views of those who may feel differently.

Anyway, thanks all for participating. We've got some exciting ideas for the blog we'll be sharing with you shortly.

Maryann (and Ted) –

Please. Not another request to stop a thread from falling off the main page.

By your own admission, there is nothing to debate about the library parking deck and the thread had devolved into a Napergate thread. As you pointed out, the scoreboard against the parking deck is 80-1, with the lone dissenter bullied out of the discussion.

If the Napergate topic is so hot, how come nobody goes to the archived threads to continue them?

Let this fall off the main page, Ted, and let it stay there.

T.B.

Q: How many Napergatians does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A: That's NOT funny!

Posted by: John Q. Public | February 21, 2008 08:01 PM

******************************************************************

It usually takes about 300 Napergatians to screw the lightbulbs in 6 City Council Members so they can see some light in their dark brains. That is an average of 50 Napergatians per one Council Member.

Don't blame the Napergatians that it is so dark and rusted in those brains.

Mr. Rod Randall can tell you that he and 5 others have never been able to change the light bulbs in the brains of the 6 Council Members. They are just simply to rusted out and it is a very complicated procedure requiring 50 Napergate Surgeons per Council Head!

Good Morning Ted,
Just a suggestion. The library thread was deleted off the Main Page this morning. It had 19 posts yesterday with a few new posters. The piano thread only had one post that was one single line during its entire stay on the Main Page. The other post was yours so we will not count that as you may have wanted to help the Piano Man post out a bit!

Anyway my suggestion is to delete that one for sure and possibly a few more dead threads and try to save the library thread for a few more days. I went to the Napergate Heading in the Archives to try to find this library thread and it was not there. I finally found it in the council thread.

I know you will say people can still find them, but people generally stop bloggin when they are not on the Main Page and in their faces. The last 2 Napergatge threads are stuck on 269 and 141 shortly after exiting the Main Page. I suspect this one will die immediately even though it was very active.

You're the boss, Ted! But just another suggestion to keep interesting blogs on little longer by deleting duds like the Piano Man that just occupy valuable space on the Main Page!

Plus, I know those 5 boys in opposition will continue bloggin but I really don't feel like takin them on all by myself as has happened before when a controversial thread drops off the Main Page. I do understand the controversy was not about the library but about the Napergate Man, but at least we had some controversy we could debate which livened up the library thread since the vote was running 80-1 against with Brenda never reappearing to defend her postion for a library parking deck. If Brenda had reappeared we could have debated her instead of debating the Napergate Man issues.

I hope you put the library thread back on the Main Page as it was getting HOT and INTERESTING!

T.B.,

You are correct that Money Magazine focused on smaller cities in their most recent ranking, which is why we are not on the list at all.

-JQP

Sherry –

Not to burst your bubble, but Naperville was not chosen as the second most beautiful place to live. CNN and Money Magazine did pick Naperville as the 2nd best place to live in 2006, but beauty and open land were a small part of that equation.

According to CNNMoney.com, the criteria they used included congestion, crime rates, and job opportunities/employment. The list was then ranked “using 38 quality-of-life indicators and 6 economic opportunity measures in the following categories: Ease of Living, Health, Education, Crime, Park space, Arts and Leisure”.

So you’ll see that open space or parks is but one category used for this ranking. Crime rates played a part in this ranking, too. Those would be the same low crime rates which are no doubt due to the hard work and diligence of the same NPD some Napergatians decry as “rampant” with fascists.

By the way, Naperville dropped out of Money Magazine’s 2007 “best places” list, most likely due to the magazine’s focus on smaller cities. Just FYI, Lisle was ranked #20, Libertyville was #52, Woodridge was #61, and South Elgin was #82 in 2007.

************************

Betsy –

I fail to see how the Napergate Man’s successful battles against the city means he should have any more influence in this debate than anyone else. As SWNT said, that doesn’t mean he has an urban planning degree.

Does the Sun have more influence than I? Sure, but that’s because The Sun certainly has more reach than I do with their circulation. But people don’t blindly follow what the Sun prints. The Sun editors have to back up what they say with facts. At least the Sun publishes their opinion and doesn’t disseminate it through third parties and hearsay.

That being said, if you want to follow what the Napergate Man's said through various people, knock yourself out. I just hope your opinion is based on more than what one person supposedly told another.

And before you go off, I oppose the library parking garage. So I agree with you, maybe just not for the same reasons.

T.B.

There is a way you can make a difference and that is by emailing the city councilmen to let them know how you feel about this parking garage at the library...don't wait for the Naperville Sun to do something or the Napergate Man to tell you what to do, be an activist yourself. Send a professional email to the councilmen and let them know how you feel about this issue...they will have to listen if they get close to 100 emails saying they don't want it. Keep it short and to the point, but let them know how you feel. Make sure you include your address so they know you live in Naperville. Another way to get their attention is to send a petition around and get as many signatures as you can of people who are against this parking garage. There are strength in numbers!!

Betsy,

At some point, every child needs to stand up and do something for themselves. We all stop having mom or dad wipe us at some age and can go into the bathroom and take care of ourselves. Welcome to life and growing up. Self awareness and being in control of one's own destination in life is a good point to be in without someone else telling you what your opinion should be.

Lots of birds are afraid to leave the nest. It's ok if they fall on their beak and need to try another day. They all fly away eventually (or get eaten by a crow).

So a few people say he said something about the library? So what? Until he speaks for himself the endorsement of this fight is meaningless. Also, while I agree with his alleged position, his opinion carries no more weight than yours, mine, Joe’s, or even Debbie’s.
T.B.
Posted by: T.B. | February 19, 2008 11:37 AM
__________________________________________________________________

T.B.,
I repectfully disagree with you. I think the Napergate Man's opinion does carry more weight than your opinion, mine, Joe's or Debbie's. He is obviously a respected leader who has been around for a while and ran Napergate ads for a good part of 2 decades. His opinion is highly respected by many.

People tend to look for leaders to help them formulate opionions. He is obviously a leader to some and a hero to others. He has a very good track record over the years. No one can dispute that!

He only has one vote as you and me. But his opinion counts much more than yours or mine. An opionion by an editor of the Sun also counts more than yours or mine and has a better chance of swaying people.

In summary, the Napergate Man has spoken. I do agree with his opinion. I have followed him for years and respect him. His opinion means a lot to me. I just wish he was still active so he can help us reverse wrongful positions of the council.

Unfortunately, he is not active and it seems like the rest of us are paralyzed and unable to do anything without him. The Naperville Sun is refusing to take a leadership role, so we are basically spinning our wheels in the mud, stuck and getting nowhere without the Napergate Man.

Note from Ted, host:

I would respectfully like to qualify your statement about the paper's position by finishing your sentence for you. It should read something like, "The Naperville Sun is refusing to take a leadership role that I agree with."

There's still plenty of farmland, and open lots in less developed towns west, and south of Naperville, so I'm sure you can all find a less progressive city to live in. With all the backward thinking of many of the Napergatians on these threads, why waste your time living in a forward-thinking city like Naperville?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

SWT,
I don't think Napergatians are backward thinking. They were heavily involved in the shaping of our city. They put numerous brakes and stops on the Brestal Law Firm allowing a very beautiful city to develop.

Many residents give the Napergatians credit for our selection as the second most beautiful town in America by CNN and MONY magazine. They kept a good ratio of commercial to residential to open land in our lovely city.

Now the Napergatians are involved to save the beautiful serene scene of our library in order to keep our city as gorgeous as possible.

I think people like you SWT should be living in concrete cities like Detroit. You don't appreciate the natural beauty the majority of us love.

You obviously came on this site to stir trouble. The minute the bloggers stopped talking about the Napergate Man, an ignorant idiot like you comes on and gets it going again while blaming the Napergatians for all the troubles of Naperville and "setting" it backwards. I hope John Q. Public holds you accountable for bringing the Napergate Man back in our debate instead of always blaming the Napergatians.

And since I have not blogged on this thread yet, I would like to back the Napergate Man and the Napergatians in their position against this unnecessary parking deck.

Also, I may be wrong but I do not think you can transplant century old trees that are a 100 feet high with roots that may spread dozens and dozens of feet in every direction. Maybe we are all dumb and SWT is some kind of a genious landscaper. And if it can be done which I doubt, the cost will probably be very prohibitive!

Where did the Napergate Man, and his Napergatians get their Urban Planning degrees?

Posted by: Southwest Naperville Taxpayer | February 21, 2008 06:21 PM
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SNT,
I think you are underestimating the Napergate Man and the Napergatians. One of the right hand men of the Napergate Man is currently the President of the Naperville Homeowners Association.
His name is Richard Strawbridge. He is also from Pembroke Commons Subdivision as was that powerful activist Donna Rogers and the Napergate Man.

Mr. Strawbridge was very instrumental in reading and reviewing all the Napergate ads(as pertaining to Spring Green) before they were published in the Naperville Sun. He was a very effective leader in that movement along with the Napergate Man, Donna Rogers and a gentleman named Rich Weyand. This Rich Weyand fella went on to write a book called The Trade Secret Office, Inc.

The Napergatians were intelligent people and even if they did not have Urban Planning degrees, they obviously were highly educated and used lots of common sense and logic in their decison making.

They just wanted that SW Corner of 75th St. and Naper developed as the Master Plan called for....RESIDENTIAL SINGLE FAMILY HOMES! It is vacant because Brestal wants to make a windfall profit for some developer and the Napergatians won't let it happen at their expense and the taxpayes expense.

I have a lot of admiration for the Napergate Man and the Napergatians even though I find myself with opposing views often since I am a commerical realtor. But you can never underestimate what this group did in the past or its capabilities in the future.

Again a Napergatian, named Richard Strawbridge heads the Napervile Homeowners Association and he is very highly respected by every subdivision in Naperville to the best of my knowledge.

Just thought I would throw that in while SWT d*mns the Napergate Man and his followers.

Q: How many Napergatians does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A: That's NOT funny!

Maryann,
I don't know, or knowingly speak to any bloggers from any of these threads. I also don't waste time posting long, twisted ramblings like you and many of your cohorts. You will notice I have not posted on this thread before now.

I don't need to write an essay on this subject. As always, I will keep my opinions short, and to the point. I think the downtown businesses who benefit from the parking decks, and the people who use them should pay for them. If city council votes to build a parking deck at Nichols Library, I will probably park in it at some time or another. If they don't, I will park elsewhere. I am not for, or against it.

I don't give a d--n what the Napergate Man thinks, or doesn't think about it. Unlike you, I am not blindly lead by anyone elses opinion. In my opinion, the Nichols parking lot is not currently aesthetically pleasing. If City Council votes to build a deck there, the big tree, and other natural amenities should be saved. I would suggest transplanting them along the Riverwalk, or another site downtown.

Getting off topic for a moment, a quick comment on a blogger's post on another thread a while back. He said every time he passes the empty land on the southwest corner of Naper & 75th he thinks of the Napergate Man, and thanks him for it. When I see it I think, what a waste of precious land, and loss to the City of Naperville. What would have been so bad about having a productive office building built there? It could have brought taxpaying businesses to the city. Wouldn't that have served the City of Naperville, and us 150,000 residents much more than an open field? Where did the Napergate Man, and his Napergatians get their Urban Planning degrees?

There's still plenty of farmland, and open lots in less developed towns west, and south of Naperville, so I'm sure you can all find a less progressive city to live in. With all the backward thinking of many of the Napergatians on these threads, why waste your time living in a forward-thinking city like Naperville?

Becky,

Thank you for correcting my division. Yes, it was counted programatically when I made the post but my word choice was inaccurate to denote the fractional percentage of 79 with relation to 156.

Keep up the corrections!

Farmsteadman,

Point of clarification, there are only 79 unique IDs posted on here. Just under half of the 155-1 claim. At best, it could be said that some unknown amount of people have posted under 78 aliases expressing some opinion against the deck and 1 person posted using an alias in favor of it.
Joe

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Joe,

Since you are being so technical, 79 is just over half and not just under half.

Farmstead Man probably did not count and did not realize that so many of these posts are from one single Joe and his few friends.

I am taking your word, Joe on the 78 aliases but I believe each alias represents one person. People do like the attention an alias gives them so I doubt that they would post under differnt aliases. I believe that you are not d.bone, T.B., SNT, or JQP. I believe you are all different people even though you sound so similar and seem to have similar agendas as so many Napergatians seems to have similar agendas.

So I will concede to you Joe, that the library vote is probably 78-1 against and not 155-1 as Farmsteadman said without putting the entire thread under a microsope as you did. He made an innocent mistake by not being thorough as you were!

Many people like Stanley Czajkowski, Eli Hodapp, and Rod Randall gave full and real names so this further supports Maryann's argument that you and JQP are wrong when you both seem to think everyone is the same person on both sides of this thread. As Ted said some people still beleive the earth is flat. Maybe you and JQP really do believe that earth is flat and we should just leave you guys express your opinions and not argue with you so much.

Bloggers may be wise to ignore you instead of constantly arguing with you! It is obvious you like the attention you arouse!

After hours, park down by the park district west of eagle and enjoy the walk. Naturally, if one has a handicap permit I truly hope there are open spaces closer to your destination. Luckily I have seen these spaces being honored properly as they should.

Eric and Maryann,

You BOTH need to lighten up a bit. My suggestion that everyone posting on this blog is actually the same person is so absurd on the surface that you should have recognized an attempt at humor, as pathetic as it may have been. It was not meant as an insult to anyone.

Ted,
If you are having trouble finding parking downtown, try Jackson between Washington and Main. It has lots of parking some even diagnal almost every time I have ever tried to get a spot there. It is a good bet because it is a one way street that can only be reached if you are coming south on Washington. No other way! Can not even be reached if you are coming north on Washington due to a sign disallowing a turn there to Jackson St! Thus very little traffic flows on it providing a much better chance for parking. Just a tip for you that seems to always work for me.

Finding parking on Jefferson where Rizzo's is has proven difficult for me too in the past unless I got lucky!


Note from Ted:

I know Jackson well. (The Sun office used to be at 9 W. Jackson where the Pottery Barn is). Nothing available last night. Sullivan's was hopping.

Maryann,

It was stated by many previously they use a word processor and cut/paste their blog postings.
That could easily allow one person to post multiple page postings in a relatively short amount of time. Further, every browser has the ability to erase 'cookies' to get around things such as the sun polls. In other words, anyone can fudge the numbers.
It's interesting that you take such a long time to reply with what could have been summed up as "Nope, I am only me" without becoming personally defensive about a blanket statement and throwing out incorrect 'evidence' that ultimately supports nothing and can be proven wrong to boot.
I've stated many times that I will correct and document why I think something someone wrote is wrong or factually incorrect and I welcome people to do the same to me. The distinctive difference being that I support why I say something and even accept factual corrections rather than get all indignant and play 'victim' or even Mr. Hyde when someone challenges something I post. The wool is not over anyone else's eyes anymore, I am afraid.

Joe,

How do you know that one person isn't responsible for ALL the posts on this thread, both for and against?
-JQP

******************************************************************

I think the answer to this question can be found in Ted's response to Maryann. He is just nice and does not like to personally insult someone's intelligence. Here is Ted's response:

" I have no reason to suspect that the comments posted by unique personalities are being generated by the same person. Someone could make a compelling argument that the Earth is flat and we'd probably publish it for its sheer entertainment value."

It does seem to me that Host Ted published JQP remarks for their sheer entertainment value! It seems JQP and Joe would actually argue the earth was flat if it could give them a DUO RISE!


Just more tax and spend. More of the same from local elected officials who treat us like ATMS.

If you want it and you use it, then you should pay for it.
Have these fools never heard of a user fee?

Charge people to park, period. And stop building huge ugly cement atrocities like the carillon. That has to be the ugliest eyesore this town has ever seen. It's an embarrassment. If I were Mayor, the first thing I would do is tear that thing down.

Which reminds me, the carillon was another one of those in the dark of the night tax increases/public bailouts our vaunted city council thrust upon us.

Welcome to Taxerville, shutup and bend over.

Joe, John Q. Public, d.bone, T.B., M.R. and Southwest Naperville Taxapayer,

I have to admit I also follow the blogs as Joe does and try to hold people accountable. And many times I wonder if all of the above mentioned that I am addressing in this post are the same exact person agreeing with each other and talking to each other. You all seem to write very short blogs to each other. Something that can be done with relative ease with a few computers in the same home!

Regarding the other side many such as Ameena, Mike and others provided their e-mails publicly. Bob, provided his privately to Host Ted with full and first name in case he needs to contact him.

Most of the Napergatian Bloggers write very long letters or posts. They are not talking to each other. No one person could possibly produce the volume written in those letters or have all that knowledge in all those prior threads. That person if he or she existed could write a book per day!

I once recall writing a 10 page letter to Host Ted and Moderator Jim on a Napergate Thread, while many others were writing long essays simultaneously too. When I wrote my 10 page essay, it seems Ameena posted her 10 page essay and possibly either McFarland or Marshall or both posted 3 or 4 page letters. All it seems at the approximate same time. So I think what Joe and Mr. Public are alleging is not only not true but literally impossible unless we can find people that can type 5000 words per mintue and think at the speed of lightning plus are all UNEMPLOYED and have no other reponsbilities in life!

But all you guys do can easily be done by one person. Joes loves to stroke his ego so it would not surprise me Joe is wrting to himself to stroke his EGO. He provides a name to Marilyn that can not be tracked down. How convenient?

I think last time d. bone tried to falsely accuse or imply that Ameena was posting as Todd, Todd invited Host Ted and Moderator Jim to visit him in his office at Market Meadows. There just happens to be an insurance office behind Jewel with a guy named Todd there. What a conincidence!

Just wanted to point out a few things that prove you guys wrong. Yes, I am sure the nice Chinese Lady Dor that circles Pembroke Commons with the Napergate Man is Realtor Ryan or Liebert who seem to have Masters in Math or at least MBAs to be computing what they are computing. I am not sure I understand what they are computing. Last I checked, Dor has her daughter help her write her letters. I doubt she knows what they are saying or wrote their letters for them!

Anyway, I am not going to write a long letter disproving your nonsense. But you "guys" or "guy" is always coming up with NONSENSE. I would love to see one of you guys or the one guy who is all 5 take a postion in an ESSAY on the library deck instead of sitting there on your computers all day ready to attack the next poster just for the sake of your daily RISE(S).

I am proud of all these posters who contribute in so many different ways. It is nice to see somone new like Victoria observe the library parking lot for a week. If you think she is providing false information, why does not one of you guy(s) get off your computer and visit the library for a week and issue your report instead of making attacks on people who work so hard and try to research before talking. It is nice to see the Realtors tackle it one way and Victoria tackle it another way! This to me shows there are many different bloggers looking at this library deck from so many different angles and perspectives. I doubt one single person could be able to see all these different angles to this one issue.

But it only takes one person to bash everyone else. That is very easy to do as we have seen on these blogs.

I do hope Joe decides to tone down his attacks on others. As Marilyn said, most of us would rather not get into personal attacks. Joe's attacks on numerous bloggers are generated by his need for a RISE when they RETALIATE!

If one goes back 3 months ago, he had the same problem with a different set of bloggers over different issues. Maybe the bloggers on the library were the same ones bashing him 3 or 5 months ago when he was trying to get his RISE(S). Maybe all of Ted Thread's are controlled by one blogger trying to be a 1000 different bloggers and Ted's Threads are really a total, utter and absolute failure. I HIGHLY DOUBT THAT!


PS. I also just noticed in last night's letters that Lynn and Marilyn posted at the same exact minute of 9:17p.m on completely unrelated topics. I don't think Lynn could have posted a letter, changed her mindset, wrote a 124 word letter, reviewed and done a spell check on it, and all in that same exact minute. Not possible! Plus Ted's blogs require you to wait for some time before the same blogger can blog again. I once was not sure if I posted my letter so I went to post it again and a message said, I could not post again in order to avoid repeat postings by the same blogger or something along the lines of preventing abuse. Just like when you go to vote on the Naperville Sun, the Sun computer only allows each computer to only vote once. If my sister or Mom, wanted to vote on the same computer, they would not be allowed to unless they used a different computer. Not even 5 days later on the same computer! So it seems the Naperville Sun is much smarter than Joe and John Q. Public and has many controls in place to avoid the abuse that Joe and Mr. Public are suggesting!

So little by little one can prove the UTTER NONSENSE that people like Joe and John Q. Public imply. I am a little suprised Host Ted allows them to publish their opinions knowing they are blatantly false and untrue. If anyone knows what is going on, Host Ted knows for sure!


Note from Ted:

Maryann,

For the most part I have no way of knowing whether people are who they say they are. I have no reason to suspect that the comments posted by unique personalities are being generated by the same person.

We do our best to try to keep discussions civil. Comments that you describe as "blatantly false" might be allowed because they are expressions of another person's opinion. As we've said before, we don't vouch for any of the information presented here as fact. Someone could make a compelling argument that the Earth is flat and we'd probably publish it for its sheer entertainment value.

I agree with Ted. I don't oppose the library garage because of aesthetics, but because it is an unnecessary cost. It is not and will not be needed.

If a special service area was created to help fund the first two downtown parking garages (Chicago and Van Buren), then why can't the same formula be used for any new garages? I doubt the downtown business owners would want such a tax approved.

The only and best way to attack the library garage is through funding. If the food and beverage tax is approved, the garage will be built no matter what. Has anyone ever seen a government entity that does not spend money being collected? If they get the tax increase, the garage is a forgone conclusion.

T.B.

JQP,

I've always wondered if we needed to call Guinness for the most MPD in a blog, so that is why I qualified my statement with unknown amount of people.

Joe,

How do you know that one person isn't responsible for ALL the posts on this thread, both for and against?

-JQP

Farmsteadman,

Point of clarification, there are only 79 unique IDs posted on here. Just under half of the 155-1 claim. At best, it could be said that some unknown amount of people have posted under 78 aliases expressing some opinion against the deck and 1 person posted using an alias in favor of it.

I'm sure someone will probably consider this some for of an attack and they are free to interpret the world however they see fit but I just wanted to clarify some factual incorrect data that was put forth. Sorry, it's just what I do.

Marilyn,

You actually tried to dig up information about me??
Oh, the scandal, the double standard!
I gave you what you asked. You get no more.

You do know that most companies will purge you from their search engines with a simple and properly written request, don't you? Take the free advice for what it is.

Host Ted and Moderator Jim,

Honestly, I feel a lot of frustration! It seems like so many of us have expressed strong opinions against the library deck. It is almost unanmious against the deck!

I thought you wanted to use these blogs to feel the pulse of the citizens and help us out. I feel you are reading these blogs and enjoy our increased numbers. But you seem not to want to participate as once promised if we got a bus going.

I think we have 5 buses going on this thread and you guys don't even care to hold our City Council accountable for their very wrongful decsion. The power of 156 bloggers is not shaking our officials like the Napergate Ads did. What are we doing wrong Mr. Host and Mr. Moderator? None of our City Officials have said a word in response to 155-1 vote against the library deck!

I think we need your help and your invovlement to fight City Hall. We can dream all we want but there is no Napergate Man or Napergate Woman amongst us bloggers that can shake this City Council. I still believe it is going to take a lot of ink in the press to shake our city officials. You guys have the ink and control the presses. That is what our City Officials respond to. I am not even sure they know how to blog or naviagate from thread to thread. I am pretty sure they know how to read a PRINT NEWSPAPER though!

I would really like it if you gave us bloggers some support. If you are not going to support us, really what is the point of having these threads and what is the point of bloggin. After a while it is no longer fun if it can not be translated into action. I think nothing on these blogs is being translated into action and thus we are failing in our battle against City Hall!

You guys have not blogged on recently with us and have given us no encouragement or ideas. I wish you would come on more often and express an opinion or offer a course of action.

Thank You!

Note from Ted:

Sorry Farmsteadman. It's been a busy week and haven't had time to interact with bloggers as much as I'd like to. How 'bout this craziness with the 204 boundaries?! The Hanson verdict--guilty. And I've had some manager things to do.

I was at Rizzo's last night checking out (and sitting in with) my friends the Chicago Blues Angels. I drove around for 10 minutes looking for a spot on a bitter cold night so I wouldn't have to walk too far. Ended up parking in the Van Buren deck, 3rd level. This was a Wednesday night, 7 p.m.

I hear your voices, hopefully the city council does too. For now I haven't changed my positions. That 1.) I personally don't think the library deck will ever see the light of day and 2.) My official position is wait until the Water Street and Van Buren deck projects are done, then see if additional parking is still needed.

I can tell many people are passionate about the library deck issue, and I respect them for that. But personally I'm not all that jazzed about it. Ardent deck opponents won't like me saying that, but I can't help how I feel. I don't think the deck at the library is a good idea, but if it happens I don't see it as the end of the world, either. I'm just not as passionate about this issue as others are.

Maryann,

Do you speak for Ted now the way some here speak for the Napergate Man? Moreover, Ted is not the one making all of the Napergate Man posts, so, no, my suggestion that WE collectively keep the Napergate Man posts to a minimum on this thead is not directed at him. I certainly have not asked him to police what anyone says. I think he’s more than capable or doing his job, and if he thinks I’m out of line I’m sure he’ll let me know.

As for me "repeating" myself, all I have done is respond to people who've mischaracterised my original post. I made my initial post on this board in the hope that talk about the the Napergate Man would not overshadow the topic at hand, as it has on numerous other threads on this blog over the last two months. My efforts were in vain, and I accepted it and did not post again until someone accused me of attacking the Napergate Man by merely suggesting that we not talk about him here. My posts since then have only been in response to further criticisms people have leveled against me, including you. But if you think I sound like a broken record after three or four posts, imagine how I feel after all of the Napergate Man posts.

Mr. Joe Shabotz,

Thanks for providing your first and last name. I have tried to do several checks on you today but you show up an non-existent on google, yahoo, and pay for services!

Could you be kind enough to provide your middle initial and age? Most services required that info, to do a background check on people. I plugged in every age from 40 to 60 and nothing popped up. Maybe tomorrow I will try 30-40 and 60-70 to see if I can track you down.

If you have decided to stop your attacks on the Napergate Man, there is no need to provide any additional information as I do not believe in personally attacking anyone including you, Joe!

I am a new poster on these blogs. But I wanted to come on and say I support all you good folks and the Napergate Man for trying to save us 20 million dollars on this library deck that appears to be a serious waste of taxpayer money!

I guess Beilen makes some very good points that in some way invalidiate Liebert's very good points.

Since we the residents are in essence paying for all this parking what is the point of knowing what it really cost per square foot to each retailer downtown. They are paying nothing anyway!

If these 3 garages are going to cost only 50 Million and not a 100 Million as Mr.Liebert estimated and there are 45,000 homes in Naperville, they will cost each homeowner roughly $1111.11 in additional taxes thru either real estate or sales tax.

I have to say this is very unfair. It does appear our city council is not in touch with the residents. No one is holding them accountable. Our only hope is one day they read Ted's Threads as well as they read those Napergate Ads. Maybe when that day comes, they will feel they are accountable.

It seems either the City Officials don't read Ted's Threads or feel a very insignificant minority is reading them. Thus they feel they have a couple of more years to do as they please.

I hope the Naperville Sun holds our officials accountable thru the print edition unitl the start reading Ted'd Threads!

I visited the library on the way home the last 5 week days after work. I just wanted to observe before I wrote.

What I noticed was that the library parking lot between the hours of 530pm to 730pm was at somewhere between 65% to 80% capacity at those hours on weekdays. I have not checked on weekends.

I also saw many vacant spots on both Jackson and Jefferson between Webster and Eagle. For those who are not familiar with the area these 4 streets surround the library which occupies one full city block. Most of the street parking is always at least half empty. Tonight, Jefferson only had 2 cars parked with room for another 18 cars. Jackson was about half full with the 4 nearest spots to the library door on Jackson all empty. Webster even had a few empty spots. I forgot to check Eagle today! Of course in the worse case scenario the Park District Lot only had one vehicle and possibly 50 empty spots. This is 100 ft away from the SW corner of the Nichols Library. And City Hall parking is about 75% empty except for some late workers and city vehicles that park in the basement garage overnight it seems!

I must say I have to question Brenda's real intentions or if she even goes to the library. I don't think she is lazy. I just think she supports somebody on the council and rubber stamped his decision with no regards for the reality on the ground.

I guess we all have to learn to be Napergate Citizens and do our own observation instead of blanketly trusting our City Council to do what is right for us just because we voted them in. That is my conclusion!

Very nice post, Mr. Beilen! I just hope our City Council Members read it to see how bad they are stiffing the taxpayers they are suppose to be representing. I am hoping they care about us and reverse their disastrous vote on the library!

You make so much sense, Beilen. Why does not our Council see the excellent points you are making? Our council wants us to believe that the restaurants and bars are paying for all these decks when in fact us taxpayers are paying for every last penny and they are paying nothing.

When someone builds a building as large as the Promenade Building, they should be required to have underground parking regardless of what Mr. Brestal has to say or does not have to say. If large buildings were required to build underground parking we would not have any parking problems downtown. But, they want to profit at the expense of the homeowners and we taxpayers need to rise and attend these City Council Meetings and hold our elected officials accountable for never using the least of their brain power. It is really frustrating when you elect someone and they choose to doze off in council meetings instead of think. Yes, their eyes appear to be open when I watch on TV but that is a cover for their brains being shut off while we pay them 500 bucks an hour for these meeting as someone computed.

We all know Mr. Brestal only watches out for his big development clients and his pocketbook as the Napergate Man told us for decades in those Napergate ads.

I think Beilen is showing us how the City Council is wrongfully assuming we are stupid. We are not stupid! We can figure things out whether the Napergate Man is here to help or not to help! What is happening with these parking decks is a massive injustice to the taxpayers.

I am also 100% against the library parking deck in the corner of the Napergate Man and all the posters except Brenda who has a right to her opinion for whatever reason suits her. I am just glad no one agrees with her and that truly speaks volumes. Of course, I am aware that 6 City Council members agree with her but they don't count because they are under the influence of the Brestal Law Firm and never think!

Beilen
I am behind your post 100%. You make a lot of sense. Thanks for bringing us back to the issue at hand. Well done report!

Beilen ,

Perfect point to make. The restaurants have nothing to lose and everything to gain by voting for the tax. It will not make one tiny dent in their customers or business. Over time, we'll have paid for it, they'll have benefited and everyone's happy (yes, there was a bit of sarcasm there on the happiness).

T.B.
I see over 75% approving it easliy. Keep in mind they know it is being subsidized by the taxpayers thru both sales tax and their home real estate tax bills.

If you read Realtors Ryan and Lieberts above postings you know the cost of street parking with a paved lot is extremely expensive. Here we are not only talking about very expensive land because it is downtown land which is outrageous in price, but top that with a high rise garage and you will begin to imagine the cost of true parking.

Plus the 1.5% tax is being paid by their customers, us taxpayaers, so they are really paying nothing for this deck parking. We the taxpayes are paying for it all in 2 different ways.

We taxpayers are getting it up the WAZOO from every which way possible. The restaurants are being 100% subdized and can take money to the bank that in essence should be contributing to their fair share of parking.

It appears this Liebert guy spoke to the Napergate Man who explained to him how parking costs are evaluated in outlying shopping centers so he seems to have some first hand direct knowledge from someone experienced who actually owns a shopping center that being the Mr. Napergate!

If the restaurants don't vote the tax in, they would be making a huge mistake. It is all to their benifit!

Since we are paying the tax, we citizens and taxpayers should be the ones voting and not the restaurants. It just shows you how bad and awful our city council members have become since the Naperage Man stopped holding them accountable in his Napergate ads for the decisons they make that most times seem irrational and devoid of the least bit of logic!

I wish the City Council would allow us the residents/taxpayers to vote and not the downtown businesses as we are the ones paying for all the parking directly and indirectly!

Joe Shabotz.
Have fun with my heritage. I'm sure you will enjoy it.
Now, please give up yours. It's only fair, right?

The city's proposed 1.5% food and beverage tax has to be approved by 75% of the restaurants. Anyone want to make any guesses on how many will approve the plan?

T.B.

Joe,
I think you are a bit confused. You think that if you can find any public, court, or hospital record it is fair game and it is public. Ever since the internet age everything about a person has literally become public. You can dig anything about anyone. Does that give you a right to publish anything you can find in a public record about a person or his kids...it is all public these days or can be bought for 50 bucks? So if you can buy trash about someone for 50 bucks does that make it both accurate and publishable! Is it really public when you have to pay 50 bucks for it? I would say it is not public since only one citizen in Naperivlle is willing to pay 50 bucks to obtain this information!

When someone is discussing the library and you chose to dig aspects of his private life that can be found on goggle or by paying 50 bucks to some agency, I believe you crossed some boundaries.

If you think all you are doing is within acceptable limits, Joe, than Marilyn offered you a reasonable challenge: give up you full name, first name and middle initial so we can goggle you and spend 50 bucks checking you out. You have not come thru as of this point on her OFFER!

I should point out that the Napergate Man never gave up his full name in over 100 ads that he ran. The Naperville Sun gave up his full name. I believe no one knew his full name on this blog site until Host Ted gave it up one day. But Host Ted does not obviously have the evil intentions that a Joe or d.bone has!

So it does make you, Joe, look like a wimp who has something to hide by not revealing your full name to Marilyn, while constantly attacking others. The Napergate Man is a private citizen as you are a private citizen. He is not a politician or a paid public speaker. Telling a neighbor while walking his dog that he thinks building a library deck is a bad idea, does not elevate him to PUNCHING BAG STATUS like someone running for the PRESIDENCY!

If you think some bloggers made a mistake by announcing publicly that he owns a lovely white dog named Abby, than I suggest you attack the bloggers who made this statement.(assuming you think they violated a code of ethics of sorts) Why attack the Napergate Man! He never made such a statement!

He declined interviews by Host Ted and Moderator Jim which indicates to me, he is enjoying his private life and does not want to be a public figure. I am not sure speaking to the media makes you a public figure, but it is apparent some people believe it does and will put you under a microscope for daring to make a statement to the press. I suspect more and more people will be reluctant to make statements to the press if Host Ted and Moderator Jim do not prevent personal attacks on them in the future for daring to express a position on a public development issue!

I would like to see Host Ted and Moderator Jim not allow Joe to dig mud up on a messenger. I would like to ask Ted and Jim if speaking to the media about an issue elevates you to a PUBLIC FIGURE of sorts and thus your life an open book to EVERYONE!

The information you publish Joe, is not always accurate. Some of the information you publish on the Napergate Man is very inaccurate. I read some of the reports you put on another site and you interpret them very wrongfully in a way that people will perceive him as a wrongdoer instead of someone trying to dispute an issue in civil court. I am deliberately being vague because I don't want to perpetuate what you were trying to do by discussing an unrelated issue.

It is obvious from studying this Napergate Man, that he is principled and does fight in court more than the rest of us when he feels wronged. Obviously, it costs tons of money to fight for your principles in court and he is willing to fight. Many of us benefit from rulings that he obtains at a great cost. I am a little amazed as to the number of times this guy has been to the Appellant and Supreme courts of our State and Nation. But it does not make him a bad guy because he fights for his principles. It is ironic that the few times he chooses not to fight for a petty traffic violation he is deemed guilty as hell possibly because he does not want to spend the money or time each time on every petty issue. It seems like he likes to pick the battles that are worth fighting for and does not fight each and every one of them just for the sake of fighting.

It is now considered legal for a liquor establishment to run a "sting operation" on its employees. Before the ruling of the Illinois Appellant Court at least the City of Naperville considered it illegal and was arresting owners of liquor establishments for doing such a naughty thing!

Anyway Joe, I don't like to see you called a Scum Bag by so many ladies on these threads. I wish they would not call you names. But on the other hand you need to stop digging irrelevant mud on the Napergate Man and claiming it is public and not private just because it can be found on the internet. If you go on the internet, you can find the day I was married, the number of kids I have, when they were born, etc. etc.. Does that suddenly make it public just because it can be found on the internet or in a court or public record? I think not! And when you admit you had to pay 50 bucks to dig some mud on the Napergate Man, I doubt that meets the criteria of PUBLIC TO ALL since it cost a hefty sum most are not willing to pay. Think about that for a second, Joe! Paid for information is not public! Private security firms can get up information for money too! Does that also make it public!

Newspapers know the names of minors who commit crimes from police or public records. They choose not to publish them at times especially when they are only charged and not convicted and also because of their youthful age I assume!

I hope you see my point Joe. If you do not see my point hand Marilyn your full name and I guarantee you that you will see her "point" in due time. I doubt you are whistle clean since you have been reluctant to step forward with your FULL AND REAL NAME!


PS. And Joe, if you choose to address my letter address it in full! Don't wizzle a single point out and try to build you case on an insignificant point. Be a Man and address my entire letter point by point! Rip it apart if you like, but please rip it all apart and not one sentence that you find to your liking or may give you a half of a leg to stand on!

Joe -

I don't know all the details for sure as this was about 15 months ago. The Sun-Times article was dated Nov. 17, 2006, so the meeting had to be shortly before that date. Maybe Ted could dig up The Sun articles for us? I do recall they were very angry about being turned away without being able to comment on the proposed library garage and I believe they marched to the city council meeting twice.

As the Herald article stated, they got an "unexpected lesson in First Amendment rights". I don't think this was just a sick joke, as I don't recall the city ever coming out and stating that the signs were placed in error or were not placed by city staff. I think that would have made the papers, too.

T.B.

Andrew,

With all due respect, I did not mention anything about his PERSONAL life. I asked about a couple of incidents that are PUBLIC RECORD. Everyone else provided all of the PERSONAL DETAILS about them and more; WAY MORE. Again, if you can show me where I personally deviated from the PUBLIC RECORD, I will humbly apologize.

TB, Were there just signs posted or was there no open public comment that evening for whatever reason? If there is no open public comment then usually comment is taken on specific agenda items only. The Nov 6, 2006 meeting agenda shows item E which is public comment, and item K5 which talks about directing staff to look further into downtown parking solutions. Did any of them try to comment anyway or did they leave after reading the signs? The minutes of that meeting show that public comment was indeed made about the library parking deck. I don't doubt what you said about the group being turned away, but did they turn themselves away after seeing the signs or did they go inside and a city official turned them away? This almost sounds like it was someone's idea of a sick joke w/ the signs or I have my meeting dates messed up. Do you know specifically which date it was?

Liebert –

Yes, we can agree to disagree. Mostly, my issue is that if he wants to speak out on the issue he should do so himself.

Have you tried the chamber of commerce for your answer about square footage?

**********

Caroline –

So how do you really feel about Joe?

**********

Elizabeth –

Sorry, but I am not “very wrong!”. You are.

Though it may be true that only five people spoke at the city council meeting against the library parking garage, this was only because others were stopped by the city council from speaking at all. A grass-roots group of students and parents marched on the city council meeting, but were turned away. I seem to recall they marched more than once, perhaps Ted could confirm.

The incident was documented by the Daily Herald Staff Writer Jake Griffin in November 2006. Griffin wrote that “Protestors of a proposed multiple deck parking garage at Naperville's downtown library got an unexpected lesson in First Amendment rights Tuesday. The city council posted signs notifying the public they would not be allowed to comment on the proposed garage because 'there is no current matter of business related to the parking deck on the city council's agenda,' the signs read. The crowd of protestors, mostly children, numbered around 25.”

The same incident was written about by Katie Houlihan and Paige Winfield in the Sun-Times on November 17, 2006. I assume this was also in the Sun since Ms Houlihan often writes for the Sun, but I was not able to locate the article in their on-line archives. The Sun-Times article was called “Naperville group rips plans for garage: $13.5 million structure would go next to library” and went on to say that a web site was created to fight the library parking garage. The web site is not currently working, but I would bet the person who set up the site, Chris Devane, is still active in this fight as he is active with/against the city council. He recently spoke to the council and questioned the golden parachute given to former city manager Burchard.

This grass-roots group managed to get press in the Sun, Herald, and Sun-Times. Though they may have lost some momentum, they have been fighting this fight for more than a year before anyone brought it up here. And they have been fighting this garage well before any shadow endorsements by the Napergate Man.

T.B.

Joe,
I think that difference between you and almost everyone else is this:

You air the negatives of his private life! Everyone airs the postives of his private life. That is the big difference!

Everyone is trying to paint him in a positive manner and posting about the 99.5 positive in his life. You are trying your hardest to paint the .5% negative in his personal life as if he is some kind of bad guy. That is very obvious Joe!

Yes, Ameena has made it clear she is writing a book about the Napergate Man. She has never met the Napergate Man if you recall!
Her book is based on her research in the library about his accomplishments in his career in tackling City Hall both in Council Chambers and in the Court Room. I think Ameena has made it clear she likes the Napergate Man. I doubt she did a U-Turn and decided to air his dirty laundry. I doubt a book about his dirty laundry would sell.

Have you ever seen a Napergatian dig into the private life of Chief David Dial or Mayor George Pradel! Never that I can recall!
They focus on their professional and political lives. If Mayor Pradel has a dog that is introduced to the world does that mean he is open season to us outside of his duties as the Mayor! I think not!

I really think Joe you need to change your tactics. I am not going to call you any names. That is not my style. My style is more your style....to call you out!!!

Dor,

I have aired nothing of his private life. Everyone calling me a scum bag has aired things about his private life. Someone even said they are going to write a book about him. Name one thing private and not in the public record I have aired about him and I will humbly apologize for it. In fact, name one thing FALSE that I have posted about him aside from my dumb neighbor who gave me wrong info that was quickly corrected and acknowledged as being the correct version, and I will apologize for that too.

If someone wants to keep score, they can put a tally mark near people's names who say something about his private life. I am sure everyone else will have many by their name and my name will have exactly 0 next to it.

As told to everyone else before, if you are upset about his PRIVATE life being on the blogs then QUIT POSTING ABOUT HIS PRIVATE LIFE.

Maybe you should complain to those who posted his name, his vehicle description, his dog's name, where he lives, what his enjoyments are, who his friends are, where he swim and dives, where he likes to walk his dog and when, details surrounding each law enforcement incident down to the minutest details of how many seconds he stopped at a stop sign and counted out loud, the details of some place in oakbrook/lombard/wherever the heck it was, and even details of his daughter's actions, his vehicle registration complications, emissions situations, what kind of car he had sold to someone in texas, etc.

THOSE people are the people exposing his PRIVATE LIFE. The NG man has every right to be mad at those people airing his personal private details for putting his private life out there on a Newspaper blog website.

Also, the Napergate Man has yet to speak on the subject. You really should clarify that for people who haven’t read the entire thread. Say it often enough and it becomes a fact, right?

T.B.
_________________________________________________________________


T.B.,
The Napergate Man told me he is against this library deck more than once while I walked with him around Kenilworth Circle in our subdivision of Pembroke Commons! Maybe as many as 3 or 4 times! He made it clear to me he found it distasteful, a waste of taxpayer money, and not needed! I am clear in what I remember and what I am saying!

He confirmed it thru his friends. If he did not say it he could have denied it thru his friends.

So I think you are fighting a senseless and useless battle with your arguments. Why don't you just accept he said it and he usually means what he says!

I don't blame him for not wanting to be a public figure any more. Look at how this Scum Bag Joe acts towards him while he is a private citizen where he has some protection and some rights.

As a public or political figure, his private life would be over and he would have little to no rights!

The Naperville Sun is not protecting the Napergate Man from Joe's constant personal attacks.

So I am very grateful to Maryann, Caroline, Marilyn, and Marybeth and all the others who care to defend the good name of the Napergate Man from all these false attacks by the likes of shady characters such Joe and d. bone.

Dor and her daughter

You also wrote that "Resistance was lukewarm before he [the Napergate Man] spoke." Really? I think resistance to the library parking garage was always strong, at least as strong as it is now.
T.B.
Posted by: T.B. | February 19, 2008 03:38 PM

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

T.B.,
You are very wrong! The Naperville Sun stated only 5 residents or a handful showed up to speak before the city council on the library deck. The article was posted here for us to read by Host Ted. So, Maryann was very generous in stating it was lukewarm...very generous! The Napergate Man made it hot by putting it on the front burner. Let us hope our City Council read these threads and I suspect they do since they are becoming the talk of the town as of late! They will find out how many people support the view of the Napergate Man that the council made a wrongful decison. Every day knew bloggers jump on to add their opinion. If Ted leaves this library thread on for a full month it will be 495-5 assuming we can find another 5 Brendas which is proving very difficult!

Joe,
I agree with Marybeth and Caroline that you are a Scum Bag for you constant personal attacks on the Napergate Man on all these threads days and night. You really need to get a life and provide us with your real name as Marilyn is requesting so we can dig some mud on you and let you know how it feels to be treated as you like to treat others! Fair is fair Joe! You simply don't know how to play fair and have no desire to play fair!

I noticed you called Maryann childish! Really, Joe! You are the one that is childish with your personal attacks on the Napergate Man. She just told John Q to say all he wants but not to keep repeating himself like a broken record on Ted's Threads. That was very sound advice to Mr. Q.! He was beginning to sound like a very broken record!

Joe,
You really should be censored. You are constantly attacking the Napergate Man personally instead of his message on many threads.
Marybeth just called you a Scum Bag for your attacks on him on another thread today. That is what you are...a Scum Bag!

I hope everyone calls you that from now on until you stop attacking the Napergate Man personally all day and night.

Marilyn asked for your real name so she can attack you as you have been attacking the Napergate Man continuously. You did not provide it! You are a pussy cat and wimp! But you feel like you have the right to attack people like the Napergate Man who are heroes and have done much good for society in more aspects than one!

I support Marybeth's call to refer to you as a Scum Bag from this day on. I urge all bloggers to join in Marybeth's call until Joe provides his real name so we can put him under a microscope as he has attempted to put the Napergate Man under a microscope.

Joe, you are not only a Scum Bag but you are a COWARD! The mothers of all COWARDS! You have been proven to be a disgusting and despicable human being. Your daily attacks on the Napergate Man need to stop. If not, I hope all of us bloggers gang up on you and attack you daily to give you some of your daily dose of medicine that you like to dish it! All you are is a nasty mud-slingger, Joe! A true SCUM BAG!

So a few people say he said something about the library? So what? Until he speaks for himself the endorsement of this fight is meaningless.
T.B.
Posted by: T.B. | February 19, 2008 11:37 AM

==================================================================

T.B.
In your view the Napergate Man's endorement is meaningless. You are entitled to your opinion. Many of us feel his endorsement agasint the library deck is very meaningful and makes much sense.

Don't you think it would best if we agree to disagree and allow the rest of us accept his endorsement in the way we wish?


PS. I am still looking for the total square footage of office and retail space in the downtown area so I can compute the cost per square foot of each and every square foot to make sure us taxpayers are not subsidizing the downtown businesses with our tax dollars. This is my 3rd request for help from any blogger or anyone from the Naperville Sun. My gut feeling tells me we are subdizing the downtown parking to a massive extent while outlying plaza tenants pay for their parking with their hard earned gross profit! A very unfair situation to both the taxpayers and outlying tenants not located in the downtown!!!

Maryann -

I'm confused...who's trying to dominate this discussion and thread? John Q. or you? Take a hard look in the mirror because you're telling John Q. he can't tell people what should or should not be on Ted's Threads, but then you tell him if he continues he should "SHUT UP". Puzzling....

You also wrote that "Resistance was lukewarm before he [the Napergate Man] spoke." Really? I think resistance to the library parking garage was always strong, at least as strong as it is now. I recall at least one Sun article (possibly more) regarding students marching on the city council meeting. Where was the Napergate Man then? Why didn’t he mobilize his 3,500 followers?

Also, the Napergate Man has yet to speak on the subject. You really should clarify that for people who haven’t read the entire thread. Say it often enough and it becomes a fact, right?

T.B.

Maryann,

YOU, today: "It seems you have decided to be both the Host and Moderator of Ted's Threads. I think Ted is doing a very good job and you should let him host.

He is open to suggestions but he is not open to someone telling him what should be on or off his blogs or what one should say. Sometimes I feel like you are trying to tell Host Ted how to run his threads."

YOU on Jan 3rd:

"Michelle,
Your response to McFarland and Marshall was excellent.

But then you do the WRONG THING and disobey the advice of many and respond to JOE CLOWN! Please Michelle don't respond to him in the future. Please no one respond to him!"
...
"I guess everyone has a boiling point and in my opinion the Moderator is not helping. It is time to CENSURE Joe and see if we can straighten him out or lose him. He is a real bully..big time bully! I mean all this guy does is copy and paste ordinances. Is that what bloggin was suppose to be?"
--Posted by: maryann | January 3, 2008 06:43 AM


So, it's OK for you to tell people what to post and who to reply/not reply to and even to tell the moderator who to censure.

You are acting very childish again.

John Q. Public,

It seems you have decided to be both the Host and Moderator of Ted's Threads. I think Ted is doing a very good job and you should let him host.

He is open to suggestions but he is not open to someone telling him what should be on or off his blogs or what one should say. Sometimes I feel like you are trying to tell Host Ted how to run his threads.

While some people in this world are thinkers, others do like following the opinion of a leader. The Napergate Man is considered a leader of sorts and has a following. People trust him. It is obvious that many people have gone against the library deck because of him.

The Naperville Sun does write editorials and opinions. Many people trust the Naperville Sun and will side with an opinion of the Naperville Sun on certain issues. Not everyone can research every item discussed before the City Council.

So I don't see a crime if a hundred or a few hundred of the Napergate Man's followers want to express their individual support for their leader's position on this thread or any thread. It does make a difference when they take a position or vote.

If his 3500 supporters did not vote in 1999 could he have gotten 4 council members elected by himself. Not in a million years! So the individual support of the Napergatians to complement their leader is very important.

As you or someone noted, his vote is only equal to your vote. He has no more power that way. His power is because he can influence large numbers of people to take his side on controversial issues or not so controversial issues such as the library deck!

This is what happened here. He has successfully influenced many more people to go against the library deck. Resistance was lukewarm before he spoke. It appears very solid now. It even appears it is almost 99% since he spoke. Maybe many people were sitting on the fence and decided to jump on his side of the fence because his past history indicates he has been a good decision maker. Let us not forget he is famous for reversing decisions where the Council Members put us in the gutter with their prior votes such as Spring Green, S.W. Gate and ATT.

This is a similar decision as those. The city council voted 6-3 to build the library deck against apparently 99% of the populance. This is his specialty. Going after the city council only after they really scr*wed up. They obviously really scr*wed up very badly on this one and this is why he spoke for the first time in 6.5 years.

He chose not to speak or be involved until our City Council made the wrong decison and the residents pretty much did nothing. Maybe because he is speaking, the residents are waking up and realizing what the city council does when they don't show up at the meetings.

In summary, I think what is happening is good. Mr. John Q. Public needs to let Ted handle Ted's Threads. You have a right to tell Ted once that you think the Napergate Man is causing havoc on this library thread. If Ted agrees with you he can shut down the thread or archive it. If he does not agree with you, at some point you may have to SHUT UP! Personally, I am getting tired of you repeating yourself every day. That is much more boring than hearing about the Napergate Man and why his supporters are backing him on his views about the library deck.

I hope you continue to post what you wish to post. Let us post what we wish to post and let Napergatians honor the Napergatge Man if they so wish with their comments. And please let Host Ted host these threads and Moderator Jim morderate these threads. If we all do what we are suppose to do, I think everything will work out just right for all.

Marybeth –

Debbie attacked Brenda personally when she could have easily chosen to post something like Confused in Naperville did. Confused simply stated out that he believes there is plenty of parking at the library location and he stated his case well without attacking Brenda.

How can you not see that attacking someone personally instead of attacking their position is harmful to the entire thread? How do you believe that insulting someone and then making a joke about it is “fair”? If you can’t see what’s wrong with that, then I can’t help you. Obviously you fail to see that more gets accomplished with a civil discourse than with the animosity some people like to spew.

Debbie lost any credibility on this subject when she used a personal attack as a crutch instead of speaking about the issue at hand. She had nothing better to say so she lashed out at someone who did not agree with her. That’s very…immature.

Since you and Debbie are so energetic and laziness-adverse, how about the two of you be banned from parking anywhere near downtown to force you to walk? You’d have to be a hypocrite to decline my offer, wouldn’t you?

*****************************

Jessica –

Please see my comments above regarding Brenda and your continued use of the word lazy as it refers to her. Do you really want to be a part of that?

Also, while the Napergate Man may not be on every thread on this blog, you still haven’t provided a good reason for him to be on this one. Especially since he already has threads devoted to nothing but him.

So a few people say he said something about the library? So what? Until he speaks for himself the endorsement of this fight is meaningless. Also, while I agree with his alleged position, his opinion carries no more weight than yours, mine, Joe’s, or even Debbie’s.

T.B.

Jessica,

If you do just a little research, you'll find there is much more to this blog than the nine topics on the main board. Go to the main board, look for the "Archives" section on the right panel and click on "February, 2008". You'll see a top called "Napergate continues" that has 141 posts, all about the Napergate Man. You'll also find he is pretty prominent presence, for some reason, on the thread titled "Mayor Pradel ticketed after crash". Want more? He's got another thread with 269 posts in the January archives: "Remember him? Revisiting the Napergate man." While you're in the January archives, check the "Should Naperville buy Ponds of Hobson West?" thread. Or the one titled "All eyes on 75th Street." Still not enough? There's also a "Napergate" thread in the December archives; and he also plays a co-starring role in several big threads having to do with Dick Furstenau.

By the way NONE of the main threads on this board are supposed to be "about the Napergate Man and his position," not even this one. Go back and read the very first entry on this thread, the one marked "Naperville Sun editors on February 9, 2008 11:09 AM." Do you see the word "Napergate" anywhere in that post? I don't. I am "blaming" you (and that's a collective you) "for bringing up his name when in fact it his name that spiced this one up for us", because, in fact, the Napergate Man's name was NOT part of this thread until his fans brought him into it.

Finally, I never questioned the credibility of those people who've reported his opposition to the library parking lot. I just don't think we should attach any more weight to these second-hand comments than we do to anyone else's opinion. To read some people's posts, you'd think they don't have an opinion until the Napergate Man gives them one.

Subsidies like narcotics are had to get off of once you are addicted.

Hopefully the City Council will put the Downtown property and business owners on the road to recovery by implementing a tax that covers the cost of these buildings and businesses.

Robert, come on...people are "compassionate" towards her...they are making fun of her when they are offering her a parking spot...I believe most called it the "lazy person's" spot or something like that. I would not call that compassionate! Sorry, but you are not going to convince me that people are compassionate towards her, nice try.

My main point is that it seems like if your opinion is not with the majority on a lot of these threads, you are made fun of and have personal attacks sent your way. I am just saying it is ok to disagree and it should be done in a civil manor without having to be made fun of for thinking in the minority...that's all I am saying. I don't agree with Brenda's reasons for wanting a parking garage, I just feel she has the right to express her opinion and be free from being called names just because her opinion is different from the majority...

Also, I ask again...do you really think Brenda has that much power in this town? Do you really think the city council voted in favor of this parking garage because Brenda doesn't want to walk far? I think people are spending way too much time "helping" Brenda find alternative ways to get to and from downtown Naperville. I would say direct that energy towards the people who can actually make a difference on this issue...the city council! They hold the votes and they are the people you need to convince...but a little advice...calling them names and making fun of them won't score any points. If you don't want this parking garage and I certainly don't...I suggest everyone who reads this thread and doesn't want the parking garage to email every city councilmen so they know your feelings. Again, I stress please do it in a civil manor as if you send an email attacking them personally...they won't read it. To get their email addresses click on this link... http://www.naperville.il.us/council.aspx. I think that is a step in the right direction and I plan on emailing them my feelings on this issue. I hope others join me. Good luck!

Kevin,

No one is making fun of Brenda. She pretty much indirectly said she was lazy. Everyone seems compassionate towards her and wants to give her a handicapped parking spot or designate a special parking spot just for her.

Really no one is making fun of her. People just don't want to be indebted to the tune of 20 million dollars because of her. They are thinking of alternative options to satisfy her while trying to keep 20 million bucks in the Taxpayers' Wallets and Purses!

It is a big difference!

Mr. John Q. Public,

There are 9 other threads on the Main Page besides this library thread. Show me one thread on the Main Page where the Napergate Man is mentioned by one blogger. I can not find any! Your statement of

"If you want to turn every thread on this board into a debate about the Napergate man, be my guest. It will just make this place a lot less interesting to those of us who want to debate real issues."

Your statement is utterly false! Only 1 of 10 threads is a debate about the Napergate Man and his position. The other 9 are not and you for some reason chose to be here instead of going to the other 9 threads on the Main Page that are not discussing him. You had a choice and chose to come to the one debating him.....this thread is the ONLY one debating him and his position on the LIBRARY.

The Napergate Man did make a statement to several people including Dor, Bob, and I believe Mike that he is against the library. I believe these people are credible. Maryann suggested that this thread be put on after the Napergate made his declaration against the library parking deck and Ted took her up on her suggestion. As another blogger said, a very wise move on Host Ted's part.

Thus the Napergate Man entered into this thread for a legitimate reason. His indirect involvement has brought significant attention to this thread. A prior thread about parking not involving a declared position by the Napergate Man, only generated 24 posts of which you were one Mr. John Q. Public.

So if the Napergate Man is going to be a catalyst to generate extreme interest in a subject let him be a catalyst. I am sure Host Ted and Moderator Jim would rather have a 125 posters in a week instead of 24 posters in a month on a subject. I would think their success is measured based on number of bloggers posting. It seems this thread has over a 100 different bloggers posting positions and not like other threads that have the same 4 bloggers arguing all day and posting numerous posts attacking each other repeatedly where Moderator Jim has to step in and issue warnings as I noticed on a District 204 thread I was reading today. I don't see anything wrong with this thread! If there was I am sure Moderator Jim or Host Ted would have archived it by now.

If you don't like the controversy that the Napergate Man brings to a thread please feel free to go to the other 9 current threads on the Main Page that don't deal with him, don't talk about him, and in which he took no positions either way. Maybe you found them a little boring and chose to be on this one, in fact because the Napergate Man, was an element of excitement that brought some additional interest!

How convenient you try to blame us for bringing up his name when in fact it his name that spiced this one up for us. The proof is in the pudding! Just check the difference between this parking deck thread and the last parking deck thread in Januaray!

I hope you see my point Mr. Public! It is really pretty much black and white.

Jessica,

Go back and read what the First Amendment says, then tell me how I want to deny your right to free speech. If you want to turn every thread on this board into a debate about the Napergate man, be my guest. It will just make this place a lot less interesting to those of us who want to debate real issues. This thread is supposed to be about the wisdom or lack thereof of building a parking deck in the Nichols Library parking lot, but it has devolved into a spitting contest between the Napergate Man's followers and those who are not so enamored of him.

This Napergate Man sounds like a pretty interesting guy, and I'd love to sit down with him some day over coffee or a beer, or something. But he's not posting here, and he hasn't made any public comments about the topic at hand. All we have from him is second or third hand information that he opposes the parking deck. Is this really our best ammunition against this parking deck? Should his opinion trump anything else anyone can say for or against the deck?

Ted, I wouldn't say I have sympathy for Brenda and her reason for wanting the parking garage at the library, I just believe she has the right to have a different opinion from the majority without being made fun of for it. I don't agree with her and I feel the parking garage would be a big waste of money, but I am also not going to make fun of her because she doesn't want to walk far after parking her car. Honestly, do you really care that she doesn't like to walk far? Do you really think she has that much power and she is the reason why the city council voted to build the parking garage there? I find your comments very interesting as I seem to remember you not liking the personal attacks you got in the Napergate thread from the many bloggers...I guess it is ok when you aren't the one being made fun of...

Marilyn –

Obviously if you read this thread after your vacation you then failed to see my NUMEROUS statements that I DO NOT support building the library parking garage. This is not a small hidden detail, woman. If you want to attack me, at least get it right.

Please point out when I have attacked the Napergate Man personally, as opposed to being against the positions of his followers or pointing out when they may have made a broad general statement that was not entirely true.

I have been repeatedly attacked for opposing the positions of his following, not for personal attacks against him. I strive to keep my comments contained to peoples’ positions and abhor personal attacks. In fact, I have tried to stand up for others I believe have been unjustly attacked such as Brenda and d.bone, even when I have not agreed with their positions. I think we all benefit from a CIVIL discourse here.

Are you really surprised Brenda didn’t respond to the unprovoked attack on her? Maybe it wasn’t because her position was indefensible, but because of the very fact that she was personally attacked. You, and Martha, are doing nothing more than perpetuating Debbie's attack by continuing to refer to Brenda as “lazy”.

Why is it the Napergatians claim to follow such a great man, yet appear to be so willing to engage in personal attacks? Is it so hard to admit when you’re wrong and apologize? I don’t think I’m going out on a limb here as both Kevin and Andrew think the personal attacks against Brenda should stop.

Also, I have read repeatedly on this thread how the Napergate Man has come out in opposition to the library parking garage. While I agree with that position (Marilyn, that would be AGAINST the parking garage—just so you don’t miss it AGAIN), just exactly where has this declaration been made by Mr Esmail? An endorsement of a position, by definition, is a public thing (Princeton University defines “endorsement” as a “formal and explicit approval”, note the word explicit).

You want to argue the facts of the parking garage, Marilyn, then have at it. But leave the personal attacks behind. But also remember, we actually AGREE on this issue.

Jessica –

Joe arguably had questionable motives for spending money to find info on the Napergate Man. He, of course, claims to have had other motives.

However, why is it that when Ameena spends countless hours at the library she’s a hero, but if Joe spends $50 in the internet he’s despised?

I’m not taking a position on what Joe did, just asking a question.

T.B.

However, I am not naive enough to think that only Brenda wants this parking garage at the library...let's stop picking on this lady like she is the only one who is for this parking garage and let's try to keep it civil. Marilyn said "Even Brenda must have realized she was wrong and has not even returned to defend herself or her indefensible position!"
Posted by: Kevin | February 18, 2008 10:46 AM

------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin,
I read this entire thread. I think you are a little naive. Only Brenda out of over a 100 people bloggin wants this parking garage. Outside of the internet world she does have 6 Council Members who are backing her up.

So I guess you are only partially naive as these 6 Council Members make you and Brenda look ever so good! Did it ever occur to you that Brenda may be one of these 6 Council Members and we still only have 6 Council Members against every Napervillian and Napergatian living in Naperville on this library parking deck issue?

My support of Brenda was merely standing up for her against an unjustified attack by Debbie. I think we get more ideas across if the discourse is civil. I also think that everyone should feel free to post their opinion here free from attacks and name-calling.
T.B.
Posted by: T.B. | February 17, 2008 01:29 PM

#################################################################

T.B.,
Debbie called Brenda lazy! What is wrong with that? She admits to being lazy by wanting a parking deck on top of the library instead of having to walk a 100 feet once every 100th time when a spot many not be available.

I just don't see your point in defending someone who wants to be lazy! Let her be lazy! She has no problem with being called lazy. Why do you have a problem with her laziness?

The bloggers seem to be offering Brenda handicapped status so we don't have to cough up 20 million bucks just for her. I think the bloggers have been very fair to Brenda. I just hope the real handicapped residents who need those parking spots don't object to this one exception. Only time will tell!

Host Ted and Moderator Jim,

I am glad you put this blog site up. I am just hoping our council members and Mayor read it. It seems thousands must read it since well over a hundred different bloggers have wrote what amounts to "Letters to the Editor" in internet space.

I have never seen such a one sided opinion on an issue. I don't think people are agreeing with this Napergate Man blindly. I really think most people feel the way they do from personal observation and experience. It really is obvious!

It seems people just aren't motivated to fight City Hall like this Napergate Man was. Or maybe they feel hopeless without him! There was another thread about these parking structures and no one seemed to care or want to do anything. So maybe the Napergate Man just gives people confidence that what they were thinking in the first place was correct and they should not be afraid to come forward with their opinion since he already came forward and his opinion was just as they were thinking.

I hope the Naperville Sun takes a leadership role and helps us bloggers challenge the City of Naperville on this unnecessary parking deck at a huge expense in the middle of a quiet residential neighborhood.

Maybe our city officials don't read these blogs! If that is the case Host Ted and Moderator Jim should run a front page article stating 99% of residents(and not only the Napergate Man) are against this library deck. Our council members should care what we think since we elected them. Are they no longer responsible to us after we elect them? I have never seen elected officials so disconnected from those who elected them on an issue like the parking deck at the library!

I think because there is no disagreement on this issue between the Establishment and non-Establishment residents, between Napervillians and Napergatians, or between anyone(except Brenda) the Napergate Man became the issue of discussion instead of the library deck. Bloggers like debating and there was simply no debate on this issue because it is so crystal clear!

I would like to see some City Council Members blog with us and tell us why they feel a library deck is necessary. If not maybe Ted and Jim can interview city officials and tell us why they disagree with 99% of the residents posting on this issue. What was the basis of the decision the City Council took regarding this deck?

I have seen the word landslide used before. But never to the tune of 99.5% against. We really have a massive landslide vote against the city council and they are nowhere to be found or care to respond. I guess when they are wrong, they just hide or disappear. Just like they were hiding from Napergate issues, now they are hiding from the library issue.

I am at a loss of words as to what is going on here. Nothing makes sense. I just hope the Naperville Sun can interview a few council members and try to explain to us their postion. Maybe we are missing something in the equation. But if we are, why are they not willing to tell us we are wrong on this library deck and explaining why?

Until the council members come out, I am 100% against this parking deck!

Jessica,

Ryan is the one who tossed out the BS information: "Police Officer checked on him. He stated he had 3 speeding tickets in his life, this suspension, and buying a girl a beer inside of a night club where he was not the owner and did not have responsibilty for carding."

I merely set the record straight. The NG man set the record straight and used his money and time and printed ads with information that showed that members of the city were lying. I used my own time and money and posted information that showed a poster here was lying. We use the same tactics. People love to trumpet the tactics when it uncovers something they agree with but attack the tactics when it uncovers inconvenient truths. If you are still mad now, go have a very long look in the mirror for the reason why.

Enjoy the frigid week.

Mr. Ted,

I have been reading your blogs for a while but today is my first time posting.

I just find it puzzling how 99% of your bloggers are against the Library Parking Deck but yet the Council Members elected by them are for it. It just simply makes no sense that the people we elect diverge in such a way that is not undertandable.

Is there any chance that Eli could be right about his theory of envelopes stuffed with cash possibly being passed around? I hope not!

I know the Napergate Man would never make such allegations as Eli but something just does not add up. Maybe our council members are not willing to think! Maybe the Napergate Man is willing to drive around and observe and they are not!

I never had trouble finding parking downtown. There is so much parking especially if you are willing to walk a block or two even at the worse times such as the Last Fling, Ribfest or when we hosted the Chicago Fire(Sting) Soccer Team and 15,000 fans who came to each game and somehow found parking! One has to ask if there was enough parking for 15,000 spectators for the Chicago Fire games why is there suddenly not enough parking for 20 restaurants who could probably not seat 2000 patrons combined.

In a worse case scenario the beach parking lot is always empty in the winters and in the summer evenings! It is only 2 blocks West of the library. The Park District lot is always empty and it is diagnally across from the library. In Chicago after you find a Parking Deck you still have to walk 2 to 4 blocks in most cases! Why are we Napervillians suddenly not willing to walk a block or two? Why do we want to destroy our downtown with all these monstrous ugly looking parking decks when we have tons of parking!

Our city council members have always made the Napergate Man look so brilliant! But is he really this brilliant or are they just so dumb that he looks so brilliant! I think it is a combination of both as to why he seems to be so BRILLIANT!

If we want to honor this Lazy Brenda, I have no problem giving her a parking spot at the library that she can call her own. Put her name on it for all I care. Call it the LAZY BRENDA spot and allow all lazy people to use it when Brenda is not using it.

That is way cheaper than the rest of us paying 20,000,000 dollars for this Lazy Brenda and building an entire Parking Structure for her and 6 Council Members who don't research or read their materials. Or do drive-thrus for that matter!

Yes, I am behind the brilliant Napergate Man on this library parking deck, as he seems to always do his homework and research before he speaks. He has never misled us before and I doubt he would ever mislead us.

The Napergate Man has proven for 20 years he is about loving our city and keeping our taxes down. He is against waste of taxpayer money! He has always been logical and principled in his decsion making.

PS. I agree with all who said Joe is a trouble maker. He successfully ignored the Napergate Man for a month and suddenly broke down. I wish he would return to ignoring the Napergate Man again as things were so peaceful before he made his presence. And most of us who have been reading these blogs for a while know what a vicious attack he made on Ameena almost day and night for 2 weeks. That 4th taxi cab spot Ameena was towed from, could be labeled much better. I checked it out and it is very confusing! I totally agree with Ameena on that spot even though I never spoke up at the time about it.

Joe,
You clearly tried to dig mud on the Napergate Man using your 50 dollars to do a check. The 2002 suspension for his licesne plate related to emission was something you dug up for really no good reason other than to attack his reputation. A below the belt tactic that backfired on you! Your are clearly the instigator here. You also dug up other "mud" on him that has no relevance to his stance on the library! And the other "mud" you dug on him is nothing more than a civil dispute! Are citizens not allowed to have civil disputes handled in a court of law. The last time I checked that was the appropriate and civil way to handle matters.
He should be commended for using the court system for handling his dispute as opposed to being a lawless vigilante!
As other bloggers stated you were attacking the messenger instead of the message. You are now in denial.

John Q. Public,
You did not attack the Napergate Man but somehow want to deny the rest of us bloggers the right to free speech under the First Amendment in an attempt to limit what we can say or not say. The Napergate Man put this library issue on the front burner so I don't see the crime of a blogger saying he or she agrees or disagrees with the Napergae Man or Mr. Napergate.

Host Ted,
Since I have not expressed my view on this library yet I would like to go with Napergate Man and the clear majority in stating it is not necessary. It is expensive! It is not needed! It is a mistake by our City Council Members! Brenda needs to be held accountable for her statement and should defend herself. She is apparently a very lazy lady! She does not want to walk and is to lazy to type or post to defend herself. I do not see why Kevin has any sympathy for a lady who expects us to pay 20 million bucks for her LAZINESS!

John Q. Public,

You did not attack anyone. What is happening here are red herrings, deflection and misdirection because it has come to light that what people have said about someone they hold on a pedestal has turned out to not be entirely true. When someone is faced with inconvenient facts or contrary points of view they go on the attack and accuse someone of doing what they themselves are actually doing. The other tactic is making up false claims about what someone said then playing 'victim'. This has played out in thread after thread for months now. It's immature childish behavior at best; mental instability at worst.

First, let me say that I am against the library parking garage as it is not necessary in downtown Naperville. Driving around an extra 5-10 minutes to find a parking spot is not a huge deal for me, so I would rather the city spend OUR money in other areas that are necessary and not in building an unwanted parking garage at the library.

However, I am not naive enough to think that only Brenda wants this parking garage at the library...let's stop picking on this lady like she is the only one who is for this parking garage and let's try to keep it civil. Marilyn said "Even Brenda must have realized she was wrong and has not even returned to defend herself or her indefensible position!" (Posted by: Marilyn | February 17, 2008 10:53 AM). Marilyn, if you were Brenda and made a comment that was against what the majority of people on this thread thought and then proceeded to get torn apart by the various bloggers with personal attacks, would you return to write again and open yourself up to that nonsense? Not everyone has tough skin and can handle getting personal attacks by people they don't know. Brenda has taken her fair share of negative comments on this thread and I think it should stop. She just had an opinion that was not what the majority of the people on this thread thought. I am WITH the majority of the people on this topic, but I welcome opposing opinions as that is what makes these threads great...they can be a calm and civil debate...well most of the time they can be calm and civil.

I enjoy reading these threads as they are always entertaining and usually very informative. I don't post a lot (there are two Kevin's and I am not the one on the 204 threads), but I try to write an entry every once and awhile to share my views. My main concern (and you have seen me post about it in the past) is sometimes bloggers take things too far by personally attacking each other. The school district threads are the worse at this and that is why I don't read those anymore. I think it is ok to have a different opinion, but sometimes on these blogs if you do have a different opinion you get personally attacked by others. I just don't feel it is necessary to do that and it certainly doesn't strengthen your argument by doing so. Trust me, I know that some people bring it upon themselves, but most don't and we should realize that.

Marilyn,

This is the only thing I've said about the Napergate Man on this (or any other) thread: "That said, can we PLEASE leave the Napergate Man out of this discussion for now? His opinion on this matter carries no more (or less) weight than that of anybody else. If he has an opinion, let him come here and post it himself."

How can you possibly construe that as an attack?

Marilyn,

I'm not the one who brought up the 2006 incident. Someone claimed he was only arrested because he was targeted or that it was discrimination. Turns out he was a REPEAT OFFENDER for that violation and perhaps THAT is why the 2006 chain of events that night unfolded like they did.

I'm not here for a popularity contest and I really don't give a damn what your opinion is about me personally. Someone through out a line of crap and I proved them wrong, now you all are p1ssed. It's that simple. If people wouldn't make such garbage claims in the first place I wouldn't have to set any records straight.

Joe,
Nobody said anything about his 2002 license plate suspension. Nobody knew about it or lied about it. Police Officer did not even track it down. I guess he did not want to spend $50 dollars as you did to dig mud on the Napergate Man.

You put it out there for no other reason than to smear his reputation. Of course you wanted people to believe he was suspended while having a DUI or something much more serious like reckless driving.

His supporters had to defend him by showing it was a license plate suspension regarding a vehicle that he owned that got too old to pass emission tests. He got rid of the vehicle. What more can you expect one to do?

So you are playing Mr. Nice Guy while you have a vicious agenda that anyone can see through. You chose to attack the messenger over something insignificant since it is apparently difficult for you to attack his message. You could have simply said I agree with the Napergate Man this one time. Is that so hard to do? A hundred other people did it!

I do not think the Napergate Man ever had any interest of being a council member or Mayor. I am sure he could have won easily based on the fact he got some many others elected.

The Napergate Man has made it publicly known he supports the Mayor and respects and admires him on many occassions thru many of his friends. He seems happy with this Mayor and must know he is establishment. He and his supporters have nothing against establishment people. They just want them to make better decisons and keep our taxes down. What is so criminal about that position?

So there is no desire for him or us to want to be Mr. or Ms. Establishment or any jealously that he or us is not. I think he would rather be Mr. Napergate and just voice his opposing opinion on such issues where he disagrees with the council such as the library. It is really that simple. He expressed one opinion in 7 years and he is being blasted for EXPRESSING AN OPINION. That is all he has done in 7 years! Is he not allowed to express an opinion once a decade! Why is the establishment so fearful of him as Elizabeth stated in the print edition I believe!

If you ask me the Napergate Man would rather be diving or walking his dog Abby than be at any council meeting let alone be a council member. Most Napergatians obviously also have better things to do than be at council meetings, but when 20 million dollars is about to be spent on one LADY who is LAZY, the rest of us feel we need to do something to protect our Real Estate Tax Bills from going thru the ROOF!!!

So I think you are wrong on all accounts, Joe! You have always been a trouble maker ever since you were fighting that Ameena girl over her unfortunate towing incident. Look at how people voted for best blogger. I think you got one vote! She may have gotten over 20 from about 30 voters. That shows a lot how much bloggers respected you compared to her. About 20 times as much!

Nobody is attacking you for posting FACTS relative to the issue of the library. You are being attacked for publsihing FACTS relative to the Napergate Man's personal life that has nothing to do with the library issue at stake. That is what a trouble maker does and you are nothing but a trouble maker trying to get your Rise on Ted's blogs. Even willing to pay 50 bucks to get a better RISE.

I am sorry Joe, but your strategy is quite obvious to all!

Thank you,
Marilyn

Marilyn/Andrew,

I have not attacked the NG man. I have countered and proven wrong claims by some of his self-appointed cheerleaders who claimed he had done nothing wrong. If you can find one untruthful attempt at destruction of his character by me, please point it out. I will apologize if what I said was not true. Posting facts is just that, facts.

Unfortunately, many NG supporters attack anyone who post even FACTS to the CONTRARY of what they CLAIM.

They seem to me to be nothing more than whiners WISHING they were the establishment.

Linda -

Please re-read my post from February 15, 2008 at 01:31 PM as you're repeating Todd's mistake. I agreed with Debbie on the issue of the library parking deck. That is, I oppose the deck.

My support of Brenda was merely standing up for her against an unjustified attack by Debbie. I think we get more ideas across if the discourse is civil. I also think that everyone should feel free to post their opinion here free from attacks and name-calling.

T.B.

Scott –

I don’t dislike the Napergate Man, I just think there’s a better venue/thread for people to rehash the subject to their hearts’ content. The Napergate Man and the arguments made by his devote followers do not have to permeate every thread on the Sun’s blog.
T.B.
Posted by: T.B. | February 16, 2008 06:14 PM

__________________________________________________________________

T.B.,
I was surfing all 10 of "Ted's Threads" as I assume they have been now coined by a Napergatian a while back. The Napergatians seem to be only on the library thread. I could not find a single post by a Napergatian who are easy to identify on any other of the 9 threads on the Main Page!

So I guess you statement to Scott, is blatantly false. Your use of the word "every" to describe one "single" thread really goes to how credible you are. Just like the City Council made it easy for the Napergate Man to attack their postions time and time again and expose their falsehoods, you have made it very easy for the Napergatians to attack you based on your false and inaccurate statements.

As far as the library I am 100% behind the Napergate Man and his near unamimous supporters on this library thread. As another blogger stated this is really a no brainer! So how did our city council vote in the way they did? Simple! They did not use their brains that fateful evening!


PS. Ted, do you know who first coined the Sun Blogs, as "Ted's Threads." I think that is a very catchy coin just like Napergate is. Can you track the author before it gets to late? I started noticing it only in the last week but kind of like it since Teds ryhmes with Threads and all the letters in Teds can be found in Threads! How cute I thought when I first read that! After all they seem to be your threads as you are hosting them for us! Thanks for a job well done, Ted. Keep up your excellent work and let us be aggresive in holding our City Officials accountable for their blunders and mistakes.

I see these threads as eventually replacing the Napergate ads when they finally reach 50,000 readers as the Napergate ads did in those 22,000 print editions. How long do you think Ted you will need before you finally get 50,000 readers as the Napergate Ads had in the Napergate Era with that huge subscription base of the Naperville Sun when the town did not even have a 100,000 residents yet? I am hoping it will be sooner than later so we can be an effective collective voice on Ted's Threads!

Lastly, would the great Napergate Man attack Brenda in such a way? I think not.
T.B.
Posted by: T.B. | February 16, 2008 06:14 PM

******************************************************************

T.B.
You make a very good point! I do not think the great Napergate Man would have attacked Brenda is such a way. He would attack her position but never her.

So may I ask you and Joe, why you feel it is constantly necessary to attack the great Napergate Man instead of his positions. It seems like you agree with his position on the library, but yet seem to have a need to attack him personally even though he is just spreading a message...a good message to help us strapped taxpayers keep our tax bills manageable.

You and Joe seemed to be digging mud on him all the time. It appears your strategy is to destroy the messenger instead of his message. May I ask you politely why that may be the case?

As almost everyone agrees I think our 6 City Council members made a wrongful decision on this library deck. How they could make such a wrongful decision is beyond me? I am glad that the Napergate Man and some of his 3500 supporters have come forward to lay this issue on the line so it could hopefully be REVERSED as many nonsensical decisions of the Council were REVERSED by the Napergate Man and his Napergatian followers in the past especially in the Napergate Era when they were very active!

In summary I hope our City Council Members reconsider their decision in the near future. An extra $19.9 million on us residents, in this terrible economic downturn may prove to be unbearable on many of us taxpayers. It is a very hot issue because mistakes like these and others by our council may result in some us having to sell our homes and move to suburbs where the council members are a little more frugal with how they spend our hard earned tax dollars


Host Ted,
I hope you put another Napergate Thread up sometime in the near future. I thought Ameena's postings teaching us about the Napergate Man and his unique and successful tactics may be very helpful in assisting us in dealing with the current City Council of whom many members were from the Napergate Era!

Joe, d.bone, T.B., John Q. Public, and RJ,

I just returned from a vacation and got caught up on my reading last night and this morning of all these new threads. One thing I noticed has not changed is you guys have it in for the messenger, Mr. Napergate, instead of his message which is that he does not believe a parking deck is the best use for that library parking lot. I agree with the Napergate Man that a parking lot does not belong there.

I noticed some of you are attacked by Napergatians. But the attacks are not taking place in a vacuum. It seems like you are only attacked after you attack their leader personally instead of his message. So I believe it is all starting with your attacks on the Napergate Man instead of his message.

For example when reading this thread and others it is clear to me that T.B and Joe are especially trying to destroy the messenger, Mr. Napergate, by constantly digging up his life record, his traffic violations, his suspensions and whatever else they can find on the internet, court records, police computers, hearsay, or rumors from neighbors. In summary if you try not to attack their leader, you probably won't be attacked personally. Fair is fair when you start throwing mud!

Form my observation in reading the blogs last night and this morning, I have only found this Napergatian group strictly on the library thread. They are not going to other threads to cause havoc against you guys mentioned above who post on multiple threads. You are coming to their favorite thread since it concerns an issue their leader spoke out publicly on, albiet thru others, to cause havoc. They simply post on the issues until their leader or they are attacked and then their tone obviously changes as witnessed by Todd who was formerly very mellow.

It seems quite obvious what is going on if one keeps up on these threads. The Napergatians seem only to be concerned about the City Council and the Naperville Police Dept. as the Napergate Man was in his days of writing all those Napergate ads. He never wrote about schools, for instance and neither do the Napergatians. They are strictly focused on the CC and NPD which allows them to be more effective than diluting themselves every which way possible on every issue.

Anyway if you guys want the attacks to stop, I suggest you stop initiating the personal attacks and they will stop.

And really building this 20 million library deck is utter nonsense. Taxes are way to high as is! Every 20 million dollars adds 444.44 to each homeowner based on 45,000 homes in Naperville. And T.B. wants us all to pay this money because of poor Brenda not willing to walk a hundred yards or circle to find a spot that empties every minute since a library is not a movie theater as one blogger suggested. And I also noticed Brenda never said she had any kids. T.B. suddenly gave her kids to try to make an unnecessary point in her defense. Or just to give her sympathy! Or maybe go give himself a JOE RISE which he must have known would be coming with attacks on his position for thinking of suggesting we all contribute $444.44 dollars to Brenda's cause of LAZINESS!!! Even Brenda must have realized she was wrong and has not even returned to defend herself or her indefensible postion!

Even our Mayor I suspect is having a hard time affording the taxes in Naperville which he has to pay like the rest of us. Here is a 70 year old man plowing snow all day and night at 25 bucks an hour to try to pay his unaffordable Real Estate Taxes.

I ask Mayor George Pradel to think twice before not rescinding his library vote as the Napergate Man is suggesting. If this resolution is not REVERSED, he will have to plow another 18 hours just to pay for this parking deck. No man in his mid seventies should be up all hours of the night plowing snow to pay for an unnecessary RISE in his real estate taxes.

Obviously the Napergate Man does like Mayor Pradel and is trying to save him much agony and provide him with some rest in his older years. I urge Mayor Pradel and his council to reverse this library parking deck decision which must have been made in haste without the proper review and research!

Thank You,
Marilyn

Scott –

I don’t dislike the Napergate Man, I just think there’s a better venue/thread for people to rehash the subject to their hearts’ content. The Napergate Man and the arguments made by his devote followers do not have to permeate every thread on the Sun’s blog.

I just don’t think its fair game to label Brenda as lazy simply because she supports the parking deck. It is very possible to attack Brenda’s position on the issue regarding the availability of parking at the library location without attacking Brenda personally. Doesn’t that sound reasonable? Confused in Naperville’s post did a good job of reasonably attacking Brenda’s position without attacking Brenda personally or calling her lazy. I may not agree with Confused 100%, but the civil discourse is welcome.

My comments to Debbie are uncalled for, but she can attack someone else at will? Seems there’s a double standard here for Napergatians. When they go on the attack, there are no apologies and no repercussions. But heaven forbid someone voice a contrary opinion and all of a sudden all hell breaks loose.


Todd –

(Note to all, contrary to the above statement and against what I normally do, I will stoop to Todd's level for just a moment)

If you actually read my post you dumb id*ot (just using your words, pal), you’ll see I agree with Debbie (and thus, I assume, the Napergate Man) in opposition of the library parking deck. I can’t believe someone would be so dumb as to post something like what you wrote without actually reading what my position on the subject was.

Oh, also, the Napergate Man has not spoken out on this topic yet, though people have been speaking for him. There’s a difference.


Confused in Naperville –

I agree with you to a point.

Many of the people who park in the lots you discussed are not going to the library. Many of those cars are for seniors at the senior center and children at the park district building at Eagle and Jackson. Those programs take time, so there are times when the parking is like a movie and many people come and go at the same time. Ask anyone who’s tried to get their kids to Gym Tigers or preschool or another program and they’ll tell you parking can be tight on certain days. These are weekday days, not the weekends you discussed with plenty of open parking.

Now, that being said, I’ve said it before and will say it again--I oppose the library parking deck. Please don’t perpetuate the rant of Id*t Todd who thinks I want to spend $19 million for no good reason. He doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

I do not argue with the Napergatians for argument’s sake. Frankly, it’s tiring to argue with someone who isn’t open to any other possibilities besides what they think they already “know” based on assumptions and conjecture. But I also will not sit by and let them bully and attack someone for no reason. I don’t recall hearing from Brenda before her post, and I don’t think she’s responded after Debbie’s attack on her calling her lazy. Is this really the forum you want? Do you really want all dissent to be beat down and forced off this blog?

Lastly, would the great Napergate Man attack Brenda in such a way? I think not.

T.B.

I have been reading these blogs and decided to post for the first time. I just wanted to come out in support of this Napergate Man who I only know from these threads and never heard about it in real life as I am a relative newcomer to town.

But he and his supporters really make so much sense. I have been to the library on many occasions and I observed the same as this large group of Napergatians that have posted.

It just seems ludicrous that we have to spend $19.9 million on a Parking Garage to make this Brenda girl happy and her one backer T.B. I have kids and I do take them to the library. I have never not been able to get a spot on the first drive thru in the library parking lot.

And how could our 6 Council Members not notice the beauty of the area. Maybe as Eli said the possibility exists some cash may be flowing around. Corruption exists everywhere. Look at the corruption that was involved when Edward's Hospital tried to build a hospital in Plainfield the first time around.

One thing does appear obvious. This Napergate Man is not corruptible. He has spent tons of his personal money paying for 200 or 300 full page ads in the Naperville Sun over a decade and a half. So if he was in this to make a buck he would not be donating all his money and time for these ads.

But we really do not know if our City Council is corrupt or just not doing their homework before making their bad decisions. I hope it is the latter and they will start making more rational decisions by performing some research.

Finally I think the Naperville Sun has to encourage more debate in their print edition as they do on their new internet threads. The Naperville Sun is not pushing or encouraging the residents to appear before the council as the Napergate Man did. This appears to be obvious from what I have been reading.

We have to ask ourselves how did this Napergate Man fill the chambers with residents in the past to fight the city council! As we all know the Ponds of Hobson West and the Library issue only drew 5 residents a piece. I think this should bother the Naperville Sun. In my opinion they are not giving these meetings the publicity they deserve. They are not writing an opinion or editorial to stir debate before these Council Meetings. They are not arousing emotions that stir people to become involved in their civic duties. From reading the few sections of Napergate Ads that Ameena posted, I could see this Napergate Man was fiery with his words and tried to stir emotions to get people involved.

If the Naperville Sun is going to print a sentence or paragraph on page 36 mentioning there is a meeting tonight, we will continue to get 5 people attending these council meetings. They should try doing a cover story on the Parking Decks before the City Council meetings about them to get residents all riled up. I suspect the Napergate Man thru his Napergate ads knew how to rile people up. If he can do it, I have no doubt Host Ted and Moderator Jim could do it also. It just depends if they want to devote the time, ink, and paper to it!

It appeared the Napergate Man was the catalyst for stirring debate on this thread. Prior threads on parking were very weak. So Host Ted knew how to take advantage and did very successfully. I am inclined to believe Moderator Jim controls the print edition. He should try to do what Host Ted did. Maybe run a headline on the cover or page 3 stating the "Napergate Man Condemns the Parking Deck at the Library". Obviously it would stir debate! If he ran a 100 different ads each 2 to 3 times as bloggers are indicating he must have left a strong influence not only with Napergatians but many Napervillians. It is obvious from reading these blogs that he is trusted if nothing else. It seems like he is very well liked and respected. If the only thing his handful of enemies have dug up on him in the last 3 months is a few traffic violations, I guess he has as close as an impeccable reputation as you can have. The Naperville Sun should be taking advantage of his popularity to promote debate on controversial issues. I doubt any blogger is lying when they state the Napergate Man told them so. The stories are too consistent not to be believable. All the stories from his numerous friends and supporters corroborate each other. Plus the decision to go against this deck is nothing more than common sense. Something he is known to have based on history! Based on history it seems our Council Members have been lacking quite a bit of common sense.

In summary, I hope the Naperville Sun does a much better job with its print edition which I assume is still reaching 15 times the number of people as "Ted's Threads" as they have been coined by some blogger. I have to say to Moderator Jim if you don't get your act together soon, Ted will have more readership than your print edition currently has. It seems like we are heading in that direction as Ted's Threads seem to be hard hitting with nothing held back. The print edition just seems like very soft and boring journalism. I am thinking of canceling soon unless Moderator Jim toughens up. I have no problem relying on Ted's Threads for my news which really are very unique, informative, hard hitting and thrilling. How nice that we can learn so much on Ted's Threads about Napergate but little to nothing on Jim's Print Edition! Let us try to save the Naperville Sun before it continues to die a very slow death!

Confused,

All that needed to transpire that night was that an officer needed probable cause to run the vehicle's license tag. From there, it should have been reported back who it was registered to, a vehicle description usually used as a visual check to see if someone put a VALID tag onto a different vehicle. Along with the owner's name would have come a date of birth and status of their driver's license. Why it was in a non-valid status I am not sure if they have access to at that time, but I do know that if it was suspended it would have come back stating that. I've listened to their radio traffic enough to know this much.

At that moment, if they see the vehicle being operated on a public street, there is a crime being committed. What followed after that and how it was handled, I have no idea of the details because I was not there.

You should be able to go to the police station and make a request or file a FOIA yourself for all documentation and reports pertaining to the case# I gave above. It really should be that simple.


As for the parking deck; there is plenty of parking. People just need to not be so adverse to using their own two feet. If anything, more handicap spaces are needed along with stiffer enforcement of them. Everyone else can get some exercise. There are hundreds of spaces down by the skate park. Think of it as walking off dinner.

Joe, Ted, and Caroline, and Maryann,

I guess I am a little disappointed the FOIA has not been filed yet. I usually pass by the NPD on my way to work every day Monday thru Friday.

Would a citizen journalist be allowed to make this request of the NPD? Or does it only have to be the individual involved or a newspaper?

When you do get the report will we be given the complete contents or only partial? I would like to see the full report if possible.

In some funny way, I almost can not imagine it being different than his friends Bob and Mike described. A guy who chooses to walk his dog with his friend on a birthday occasion get together, does not seem like he had any plans to cause trouble that night. It almost seems like they were the only 2 not drinking in downtown Naperville that late evening.

With so many intoxicated people walking out of the bars, it really does amaze and confuse me that they chose to target them instead of a possible drunks who would really be a serious danger to our roads upon exiting the bars. Why would they care so much to devote 4 police officers on a tollway violation, instead of making every effort to protect our streets at one of the worse 2 times of the week from potential intoxicated partons. Friday and Saturday nights when the bars let out are the most dangerous times of the week as far as road safety. And yet 4 cops from that intersection chose to chase the H2 Hummer to nail its owner for what I believe was a .40 cent or multiple .40 cent tollway suspension they detected while his vehicle was parked next to them. For some reason and I doubt it was random, they most likey targeted and chose to run his plates.

I really don't think in normal police activity you nail a guy who makes a complete stop at a stop sign. That is what police want to see you do. Counting 1001, 1002, and 1003 is probably the smart thing to do if you are being tailed by police. Rolling thru a stop sign which many people do would have resulted in a ticket. The Napergate Man probably knew that. Since he has a history of getting tickets for petty violations, I guess he chose to be extremely cautious.


==========================================================================================================================


Back to the library, T.B. and Brenda. I just want to say if Brenda has 3 kids and does not want to walk from City Hall to the Library that is understandable. But with over a 100 parking spots in the library parking lot and over 40 parking spots on both Jackson and Jefferson, assuming they were all FULL, one or two spots have to have to be opening up every minute. So if Brenda circled with her 3 kids just for a minute or two she will get her spot. All 140 patrons did not come to the library at the same time and neither will all 140 leave at the same time. It is not like a theater or movie.

I can understand why bloggers would be outraged at T. B. for making that argument on behalf of Brenda. Even during the Last Fling if you circle the library lot you will always get a parking spot in the less than 5 minutes at worse. I usually park there during the Last Fling and get a spot immediately or in less than 2 minutes.

There is so much street parking around the library that is never even used on Friday and Saturday it is almost mind-boggling. I am sure when the Napergate Man drove around he saw that Park District lot which is kitty corner(SW) and it was empty. I am sure he noticed the Jefferson St. north of Eagle with all those 3 hour parking spots that are always empty even on Friday and Saturday.

If you spend time in downtown as apparently Mr. Napergate does, it really is a no-brainer that we don't need a parking deck so badly at the library. And when you consider it is a residential area, it makes it incomprehensible.

So if this is another Napergate Man vs. 6 City Council Members War, I think the Napergate Man is going to win easily. I think as Host Ted once said they really have made it easy for the Napergate Man to gain and continue to gain credibility because it is apparent our city council members do not do their homework, research or even attempt to think logically! He apparently does his homework and only speaks up if he is sure. If he is not sure or does not know, as his friend Randy said in the print edition he just keeps quiet rather than ruin his credibility.

My suspicion would be he is probably studying the Main St. parking deck which I also don't think we need. But his nature is to study before he speaks so we may not hear for a while on that one. The Van Buren makes sense! It is between a Parking Deck and a huge building. Let us build it as high as we can and spare the other 2 lots from parking decks. I think we leave the library as is and find a better use for the Main lot. Maybe a retail building with underground parking would be a compromise with the building owner paying for the parking this time instead of the taxpayers as in the Promenade Building as Realtors Ryan or Liebert mentioned or possibly another blogger. As Host Ted noted, these Napergate threads(library thread by name but so obviously turned into a Napergate Thread in due time) get very long quickly and one can not track who said what especially since the letters are usually extremely long since most bloggers only write once. I am writing a second time since I felt I had something to add after driving by the library a second time to try to see what the Napergate Man was seeing that many of us have not noticed before except possibly for the 5 who appeared before the City Council. They also could have not noticed all the available parking and were just speaking strictly on behalf of their 5 homes that would be across the street from the deck. I did notice 5 or 6 nice homes sitting across Jefferson from the library and I can not imagine those homeowners not speaking up. Of course they failed because they did not have the Napergate type grass movements behind them and the data that Napergate Organization seems to accumalate when their leader speaks. He is anything but a one man operation. This Napergate Man has an organizaton still going and many and many supporters retirement or no retirement!

Yes, the Napergate Man is very right on the library deck. I suggest Ted you see if Dor can get his opinion on the Main St. deck and we could into another debate in a week or two. This one seems to be obvious to all EXCEPT 6 Council Members and Brenda.

I am also not willing to pay $19.9 million just so Brenda and her kids do not have to circle that library lot twice. That is just so much money. It is very apparent T.B. sometimes feels like having an argument for arguments sake to get under the skin of the Napergatians. But really the cost for doing that is his own CREDIBILITY and REPUTATION. I think he has lost both while debating the Napergatians on behalf of the Napergate Man.

Caroline and Ted,

Here's the information you need if any department or government entity claims to have no information about what you are seeking:

Case# 2006TR103268
Complaint# 000000530726

That will hopefully jog someone's memory if they have a convenient case of amnesia like you are fearing.

Consider it a gift.


Response from Ted:

I have an update. I did get to talk the reporter after my post on Friday and he's got the FOIA form on his desk still, hasn't actually had a chance to file it yet. Kind of a busy week, what with him breaking that investigative story about the Biasco brothers ripping people off, a story that all the TV stations in town did after us. Then there was that terrible shooting at NIU so we had to check for Naperville connections to that tragedy. So bottom line, we haven't had a chance to actually ask for the report yet, sorry.

Host Ted,
I am willing to bet there is no report as there were no reports for the cost to that lengthy trial.

Just like Napergate is something our city officials don't like to talk about, I suspect it is also something they don't like to write about.

My guess is they won't be able to find a report if it is a Napergate Report. Napergate Reports are not filed or kept at City Hall.

Anyway like everyone else curiosity is killing me!

Ted,
I just wanted to thank you for staying on top of that report.
I know it means a lot to me and many others to find out what happened that night. I sure hope the report is not to skimpy but it is better than not having information at all such as when they could not account for a million to 2 million dollars on that long and divergent 2nd Napergate Trial of the 90's.

Maryann

Someone's potential Dissociative Identity Disorder is showing.

Don't worry, I asked a reporter to request that report--that's what I committed to doing. I said the report might be worth looking at to see if there was any indication as to why police pulled over Basim Esmail in July 2006 near the Riverwalk. That's all. For those not familiar with police reports, they can be skimpy on info. I wouldn't expect too much.

T.B.,

Since you love Brenda so much and have so much concern for her, why don't you put your money where your mouth is.

Come up with the entire 19.9 million you dumb id*ot!

I just can not believe we could have such an id*ot amongnst us posting such id*otic statements!

My taxes are way to high! I simply can not afford Brenda or even contributing 10 bucks to this garage.

So I think it is time that T. B. antied up the dough to the tune of $19.9 million intead of his loose tongue all day and night!

And since I have not voted yet, I am against this d*mn library deck and 100% behind the Napergate Man. And I am so glad he spoke out and put this on the Front Burner.

It was on the Back Burner before he spoke and we know way to well what our council members do to Back Burner issues. They shove them up our WAZOOS!

I forgot to express my support for the Napergate Man and all his supporters against this library deck.

I would like to kindly ask the Mayor and Council to reverse their decision please!

Scott

PS. Also Host Ted I would like to also ask you not to forget about that FOIA report you filed for regarding the Napergate Man's wrongful imprisonment! It is important that we make sure no citizen is hasseled for his political views past, present or in the future.

Debbie –

The real or imagined motive you ascribe to other writers that they post on these threads to get a “RISE” is juvenile at best. At worst, it’s a sexual innuendo we could all do without. Please stop.
T.B.______________________________________________________________

T.B.,
Your comments against Debbie are uncalled for. Her reference to a RISE had nothing to do with sexual innuendos. That was sick of you to interpret it that way.

Even Host Ted has decribed Joes and possibly d. bones numerous rises against bloggers as RISES. I agree with Host Ted and Debbie and disagree with you.

And T.B., don't try to tell us what we can talk about or not talk about on these threads. This thread is very popular because the Napergate made statements to many people that he is against this library parking deck. He ignited this debate! Maryann, a possible Napergatian suggested this thread in lieu of the Napergate Man's comments. Host Ted wisely took her up on her suggestion!

My question, T.B., if you dislike the Napergate Man and his position on the library, what are you doing on this thread hassling Napergatians and Napervillians. Why don't you go try to get one of those dead threads that Host Ted puts on frequently and falter, going? At least the Napergatians can get a thread going! You are not capable of doing anything but running your mouth over and over again about this Napergate Man. It is not the Napergate Man we are tired of but people like you who seem to have diarrhea of the mouth.

And you really think us taxpayers are ready to build 19.9 million dollar parking decks for every lazy lady like Brenda on every block in downtown Naperville! Imagine what it downtown Naperville would look like. No open space or retail. Just garage after garage! Your utter stupidity on these blogs indicates to me you are looking for a RISE just like Joe and d.bone.

Most Naperatians post once, make their point and move on with their lives. But you guys chase them around no matter what thread Host Ted gives them. Host Ted can put up to 10 threads on his Main Page. This is apparently a very large group of people and Ted is wise to give them a thread. It seems like their numbers have increased from the 3500 in the Napergate Era.

They love to discuss and debate issues. People like you, T.B., are more into attacking personalities. It seems to me you are jealous of this Napergate Man. Did he ever bother you! Did he ever say a word to you? What is your problem, T.B?

I am thankful he spoke on the library deck issue! He got us all interested and taking a second more serious look. Host Ted posted an article indicating only 5 people showed up at the council to oppose it before the Napergate Man spoke. Now that he spoke, I suspect over a hundred will be at the next meeting to oppose it. And if he ever runs a Napergate Ad again we know he will have City Hall overflowing. So he is an important person in the development of this town that people respect and admire.

He is genuinely concerned about our town! His opponents like you, d.bone and Joe have no concern for our town. You only concern is for your hourly RISES. Do you see any Napergatians chasing you on other threads to bother you guys? I have seen NONE! They post once and go out on dates on Valentine's Day. They appear to have lives. The library thread had almost no activity on Valentine's Day. You guys just keep jumping from thread to thread making an issue over every issue and blogger while never producing any results. Just all mouthy talk but no substance! Tell us T.B. what resolution have you ever reversed in City Council so we can respect you like we respect the Napergate Man. My guess is you never reversed any City Council resolution and never beat City Hall in a court battle either. That is why you are looked at as chopped liver on these threads. You are all talk and no action. The Napergate Man was all action! It is undisputed!

It is you guys who chase the Napergatians to their preferred threads to harass them. But from my observation they have made minced meat our of you Joe, d.bone and a few others repeatedly.

Have you guys ever even attempted to have a city council member elected? Probably not! The Napergate Man has attempted to get 16 council members elected in 4 elections and has had remarkable success including a clean sweep one time.

So yes, he is admired and respected. If you don't want to hear about him, there are 9 threads not discussing him. Why don't you park your rear end on one of those threads and leave our debate alone since you can not debate issues but seem to specialize in attacking personalities!

I can actually see why the Napergate Man blames the Brestal Law Firm for all the problems of our town.

Here is one example to support the Napergate Man. Brestal arranged for that huge Promenade Building(Hugo's Bar) to be built. That building is humongous. Guess how many parking spots it has.....0!

I believe it is owned by an establisment couple! If the city council members cared about us taxpayers they would have had this multimillionaire couple build 2 levels of parking underground to service their OWN BUILDING. But no! They and Brestal decided us taxpayers should be responsible for their parking. It just seems so unfair.

So it is not hard to understand why this Napergate Man has such wide spread support in his movements against the Establishment. They are always doing things to enrich themselves at taxpayer expense.

I am sure you heard the saying about the rich get richer while the poor get poorer. People like Mr. Brestal are hired to make sure that this process continues.

Mr. Napergate seems to be sought out to stop the abuse of the upper class, middle class and not so privelged in town at the expense of the Elitist Establishment who does as it pleases. And what is so sad about this guy, is he works so hard to elect council members like Furstenau and Rosanova and as soon as they get in office they switch loyalty to the establishment.

I guess the Napergate Man does not offer fringe benefits. But City Hall does offer fringe benefits to those who betray the Napergate Man. And Brestal does too! We all heard of that 2000 dollar contribution he gave to Furtenau to wrestle him away from the Napergate Man. Apparently he succeeded and now Furstenau, a former Napergatian is voting with his Etablishment buddies against all the little homeowners surrounding the library parking lot.

Suddenly Furstenau will sell residential neighborhoods for $2000 dollars since the Napergate Man retired and is no longer holding him accountable for his actions.

Next time I vote, I am voting these Napergatian traitors like Furstneau and Rosonavo out of office. I am sure you all heard how Mr. Brestal stole Rosaonova away fromt the Napergate Man. Yes, he offered his son most probably a 6 digit salary at a very young age in order for him to disassociate himself from the Napergate Man who endorsed him twice in his ads and helped get him successfully elected.

And of course I support the Napergate Man and his Napergatian supporters in this new battle to save the library from commercial enchroahment in the form of a parking deck.


PS. As other bloggers mentioned I am also anxiously awaiting the result of the FOIA report that Host Ted subpoened from the NPD! Good work, Ted! Let us try to get to some answers whenever we can instead of having your threads turn into a rumor mill!

Debbie –

The real or imagined motive you ascribe to other writers that they post on these threads to get a “RISE” is juvenile at best. At worst, it’s a sexual innuendo we could all do without. Please stop.

Debbie, I think you owe Brenda an apology. You attacked her and called her lazy because she dared to voice a contrary opinion. I found nothing in Brenda’s short post which would indicate that she’s lazy. She merely stated that parking around the library was difficult on Thursdays. For all we know, Brenda has small children and would find the “scenic” walk from city hall in bad weather prohibitive.

You even offered your own opinion that you doubted what she was saying. So now Brenda is a lazy liar? The fact is that there are times when parking in the library and close-by park district lots is very difficult. This is especially true when there are both park district classes and activities at the senior center at the same time.

I happen to agree with you on this issue, Debbie, but that doesn’t mean those in the opposition are fair game for your vile attacks. I welcome their opinions. I think you should, too.

Lastly, I think maybe you’re the one who doesn’t “get it”. The issue here is the library parking garage. If you really must continue the Napergate thread, please choose the “February 2008” link in archives and go to the “Napergate continues” thread. It’s pretty easy to find. Rant all you want.

T.B.

I did ask Mr. Esmail how he felt about this library parking deck during our last meeting. He said he was very much against it for almost all the reasons mentioned above. So it is not a rumor that he is vehemently against this deck!

I drove by the library and did see his point and that of all the others. I will admit with my busy schedule I have not had time to read books in nearly 3 years. I have actually never been in Nichols library once.

But it is very scenic out there at night. It is in a residential neighborhood. It is on a pretty river! And the parking deck would just not fit well there. It would be like putting a huge elephant with chickens and roosters in a farmhouse!

I think we need to build that Van Buren garage as high as necessary to give us all the parking we need. When I go downtown Chicago to my corporate meetings, I park in a 12 story garage. Why not build a pretty 12 story garage on Van Buren and solve all of the parking problems. That garage is by far the closest to the train station and could end up serving a dual purpose better than Eli's suggestion of a station at the Metra. I think Eli who is usually very right was very wrong this one time. I hope he reconsiders and thinks of my proposal for Van Buren to be the dual purpose. It seems like it is only a quarter of a mile from the train station and a quarter of a mile form the Northern Bank building on the south side of downtown. Smack in the middle!

Women that work for my company usually walk to work in comfortable shoes and change into high heels once they get to work. It is easier to store the comfy shoes somewhere at work. But it is not practical for ladies to be carring comfy or tennis shoes all night while clubbing after changing into their high heels.

Just my 2 cents worth! Must get to my next sales call!

Talk to you all later!

I want to express my outrage at this library parking deck.

It absolutely makes no sense.

I agree with the Napergate Man, Dor, Realtors Ryan and Liebert, Melissa, Cindy and the numerous others who spoke against this deck.

It appears everyone is against it execpt for Brenda who is most likely the daughter of one of the 6 council members who voted for it and is trying to protect her Daddy.

I am quite puzzled how 6 elected officials could make such a disastrous decision.


PS. I hope Host Ted shares that FOIA report on the Napergate Man with his bloggers. Unless, I am losing track of time, it seems like it has been over a week. Will the NPD say they lost it as they lost the financial records to his 5 year trial? I guess we will know soon! Hopefully they won't lie in the police report as they did in their statement that a 5 year trial that went everywhere and utilized 7 city and outside attorneys only costs us taxpaying citizens $5000 dollars. That bordered on the "Lie of the Century!" Hopefully we will get some HONESTY this time!

i am a first time blogger but have been reading these threads for a while. i just wanted to come on and say i agree with debbie and disagree with joe.

joe has always said the the npd acted properly in the arrest of the napergate man. i have never seen him condemn the npd for putting the napergate man over night in a small jail cell because his 16 year old daughter did not have .40 cents to put in a toll booth. the sergeant knew he was arresting the napergate man for a tiny .40 cent violation or 2 or 3. he chose to take extreme measures worse than in most facsist, dictatorial, and 3rd world countries in behaving the way he did. what really makes this case sickening is it appears the chief through his silence has shown approval for the sergeant's improper behavior and abuse of his discretion.

i feel as debbie this chief needs to resign. he wants others to take responsibility but he won't. he wanted to throw the napergate man in jail during that kangaroo trial for what his employees did, but he refuses to take responsibility for any of his employees. i believe neary a dozen of his officers were deemed to have handled civilians wrongfully in 2006 by internal affairs according to debbie. why is chief dial not held responsible? why is he not jailed? it is he who is acting above the law, not the napergate man who obeys the law to the best of his ability. it seems like his major problem was an aging vehicle and a young "irresponsible" daughter. both out of his control!

but the chief is suppose to be in control of his officers. he allows this sergeant to roam our streets acting like a crazy hulk of sorts. he has not even assigned him to a desk job, so he can be evaluated for mental and emotional stability.

anyway, i drove by the library at about 10am today. the parking lot was only 25% full. city hall was 75% full. there was plenty of parking at both places. i am sure the ratio reverses at night but between both lots we have more than enough parking.

when 25,000 people head to downtown during ribfest and the last fling we all seem to be able to find parking. now suddenly we need 3 huge parking garages for 1000 restaurant patrons on friday and saturday. i guess iam going against the napergate man and his supporters and saying we don't even need one single garage downtown. we are fine for now! maybe as eli said we should build a parking deck at the train station. but I of course disagree with eli regarding the dual purpose. no girl in high heels is going to walk a half a mile to downtown especially in the long icy winters we have. so he is only half right but at least right about building a garage there as a priority over downtown.

when we eventually need a parking garage downtown let us build a 9 story garage instead of 3 story garages. that way we can save the library and have another lot to build more retail space.

while driving this morning, I felt the line in the sand should be webster st. there should be no retail west of webster st. that area is very residential. both west and north of the library are nice homes that would lose their value if a huge garge was built. has mayor pradel thought about them and compensating them. would he like to live there and have a garage in his front yard. i think the mayor and the other 5 council members are making a very wrong decision. as the napergatians and others are saying this is really a no-brainer!

mostly i am disappointed in dick furstenau. he uses the napergate man to get in office and he starts voting with the establishment on issues like the library. it almost seems like the man has no principles, ethics or loyalties to anyone but himself. to work with the napergate man who we all know considers brestal his number one enemey since mayor macrance passed away, and turn around and take 2000 dollars from brestal almost borders on betrayal if not treason. df should be glad he was not in the old iraq. saddam would have thrown df in a container full of sulfiric acid and no one would have ever heard or seen him again for committing such high treason.

i also would add my voice to those who like the bashing of the napergate man to stop. first this joe guys spent a month bashing poor ameena over a parking spot. now he is bashing her idol that she is researching and try to write a book about. it seems like this joe guy has it more in for ameena than the napergate guy. he seems not to be able to stand this ameena girl. i don't know what joe's problem is but i think this ameena girl is a nice intelligent girl. if i recall correctly she had the most votes for best blogger.

so maybe all of joe's deep rooted anger against the world is rooted in his hatred for ameena. i think it is about time joe grew up and learned how to get his rise in the real world instead of on ted's blogs day and night. joe has no life and needs to get a life. he seems to have no self-esteem and seems to try to get some by constantly bashing ameena and the napergate man.

so what joe, if ameena wants to write a book and make a profit. everyone who writes books tries to make a profit. do you expect her to retire on social security and the 500 dollars she has in the bank. she is entitled to a nice retirement just like chief dial. i guarantee you ameena is 100 times nicer than chief dial and takes responsibility. i will never forget how quickly she apologized when she erroneosly uttered the word "retarded." that showed lots of class on her part!

has anyone seen an apology from chief dial regarding his sergeant's mistreatment of the napergate man. i have not!

Debbie,

I never said Chief Dial or any other person in this town is above the law. You did.
I never said NG man should be in jail, you did.

As far as being held responsible for what someone else did in a vehicle that is registered to him.. legally, HE IS. That is the law.

Somehow you want the NG man to be above the law.. the very same thing you complain and accuse others in this town of being...

You make absolutely no sense.

Good Morning Bloggers,
I guess the Valentine's ceasefire Maryann declared, apparently was successful with only one exception: JOE! I guess JOE needs his daily RISE as they have been saying on these blogs.

I have not had a chance to vote on the library issue so I will take a moment and state I am in the camp of the Napergate Man and all the Napergatians and Napervillians who are against it.

I read this entire thread this morning and I guess one girl named Brenda supports the 6 council members. She apparently is not willing to walk from the library door on Jackson St. across a 40 foot scenic bridge and park in the City Hall parking lot in the rare event the parking lot is full. She claims it is difficult on Thursday to get parking, which I doubt but if true, City Hall parking is very empty on a Thursday except for a few city vehicles that stay there overnight. There is even underground parking at City Hall to keep her car sheltered from the elements. So we taxpayers need to spend 19.9 million dollars to build one lazy girl a 550 car Parking Deck. I say the City Council pass a resolution changing ONLY ONE of those numerous handicapped spots by the library that are always empty to ONE called "LAZY PEOPLE." And award Brenda a special sticker called LAZY that will allow her to park there with a few other LAZIES that may pop up. It beats coughing up 19.9 million dollars and since the Handicapped Spots have never been filled to the best of my knowledge, giving up just ONE SPOT for Brenda hopefully will not affect those who really deserve that courtesty!.

Finally, I don't think Joe gets it. No one disputed the Napergate Man's suspension. We are only disputing the abuse of discretion exercised by the Sergeant and numerous cops on the scene. Discretion must be exercised properly and not to practice discrimination. For example if NPD officers only arrested females and Hispanics for emission suspensions, and let all white males proceed to the nearest mechanic, I suspect that would be discrimination. But, in Joe's eyes cops have a right not only to be fascist but also racists if they so choose. Thankfully must cops in the NPD are not like this nutty Sergeant, It is really sad how this Joe blogger thinks. It does seem he is a borderline racist of sorts.

And in some ironic way Joe wants the Napergate Man held responsible for his teenage daughter running a toll he had no control over or even knew about. By Joe's logic, the Napergate Man should have been jailed as he was. No questions should be asked!

However in Joe's eyes, Chief Dial is not responsible for his adult cops and experienced Sergeants. One of his officers got a DUI once or at least had BAC levels to show he was intoxicated but apparently may have been given a pass by his fellow officers on a DUI. This is much more serious than a 16 year old daughter not having .40 cents on her or being in the wrong lane. Does Joe believe Chief Dial should be imprisoned for a night or a few nights because his adult employee was drinking and driving intoxicated while endangering the lives of Naperville Residents? Probably not! Joe's definition of responsibility is one that he deems in his impaired judgment as fair!

In an Internal Affairs report posted on some thread, about a dozen cops committed violations against citizens in 2006. Isn't Chief Dial ultimately responsible for these dozen cops? Yes, he is! So what is really insane about this is Chief Dial wants to hold the Napergate Man responsible if his employee accidentally sells alcohol to a minor or his daughter runs a toll. He wants the Napergate Man charged and the book thrown at him. Imprisoned for long periods of time if possible!

It appears to me that Chief Dial is a man with Double Standards. A man who has no reason or logic in his decision making and takes no responsibility for his cop's actions. Not even an apparently fascist and possibly racist cop's actions!

It is my opinion that Chief David Dial has overstepped all acceptable boundaries. I join the many others who have asked that he RESIGN immediately. If unwilling to resign, I ask the City Council to terminate him but allow him to receive his full pension of 75%. We are not mean people in this town. We don't want anyone hurting or anyone on the street for lack of funds to survive in retirement.

But because we are not mean people, I also think the ongoing harassment by NPD against the Napergate Man and others MUST STOP!

Christine,

There you have it.

According to Maryann, Ameeena is going to write a book (presumably there will be profit involved, but maybe not) about someone's personal life that is not known to the rest of the world. More than likely, it will contain details that probably are not part of any public record anyplace. Yet, this is deemed OK and a great thing.

Enjoy the read when it hits print.

Christine,
Ameena has not posted on this thread about her feelings regarding the library as you correctly mentioned. But she did mention her feelings on another thread and Ted posted her comments in the print edition of the Naperville Sun along with 4 other bloggers from the Napergate Thread. I thought that was nice of Ted to give the Napergatians a plug in the Print Edition on February 11 in the Chief David Dial column who appears to be off. Here is Ameena's position on the library:

******************************************************************

"Ameena" wrote, "...We hope our fine Mayor Pradel will find a way to save the beautiful setting at the downtown library from being destroyed. As many know I spend a lot of time at that gorgeous library. I hope our city council does not destroy it with an ugly garage."

******************************************************************

Host Ted posted comments also from Randy, T.B., Elizabeth, and Vicky. I thought they were all tasteful. I also thought it was nice of Ted to plug Napergate in the print edition which will undoubtedly result in more bloggers and opinions which I think is what we need to make a difference.

Below are the rest of the posts that Ted published in the print edition of the Naperville Sun.

******************************************************************

"T.B." wrote, "I appreciate the research and work Ameena has done, but I believe that being a good researcher and then being able to correctly interpret that work are two different things."

"Randy" said this about Esmail: "His goal in life was to never lie. Always to tell the truth. He knew liars could never remember what they said. So he always spoke the truth. If he could not tell the truth, he would just not talk. But he would never lie!"

"Elizabeth had this to say about Esmail: "This guy is just a little too brilliant for the establishment. As long as he is within the city limits of Naperville they fear him. In some crazy way, I feel even in silence he is becoming more iconic."

And finally, "Vicky" wrote, "This Napergate thread is a real thriller. It is your best thread ever by far and away! Delightful to read daily! I cheat and check it twice a day while at work because I simply can not wait to get home to read about the next piece of suspense coming from who knows which character or blogger. This thread makes my favorite 'Desperate Housewives' show look very lame and tame in comparison!"

Contact Managing Editor Ted Slowik at tslowik@scn1.com or 630-416-5255.

******************************************************************

Vey nice job Host Ted and all bloggers!

As far as Ameena I have corresponded with her thru e-mail. She reads the blogs every day and loves them. She said she is cutting down on posting so she can concentrate on a book she is writing.

You guessed it! She is writing a book about the Napergate Man and his numerous battles and victories against City Hall. She feels there will be interest in this story as everyone across the country is always looking for the recipe to beat City Hall. She feels the recipe will be in her book as devised and proven by the Napergate Man.

I wish Ameena well and I have no doubt she will succeed with her book. I just hope she finds time to blog with us once in a while.
It is not quite the same without Ameena! She is a very marvelous woman and I wish her nothing but the best in the writing of her book.


P.S. And I would like to wish everyone a Happy Valentine's Day! It would be nice if we all gave the Napergate Man one day off from all the bashing he has been receiving in the last week due to his numerous "criminal violations." I am calling for a one day Cease Fire during this Valentine's Day! I hope my call can be answered and honored! Thank you!

Christine,

Ameena, Melissa, Bob and company are throwing out details of his personal life. What I mentioned was simply public record.

If you have a problem with personal details coming out, you are barking up the wrong tree. Go complain to the people revealing personal details about his personal hobbies, personal endeavors, personal enjoyments, and personal life. I don't know him personally so I am not 'privy' to the information they are 'privy' to and keep putting out into the blogs.

Example: License suspended. I don't care WHY it was suspended. It simply WAS suspended. Personal life details surrounding that are coming from the crowd I mentioned above, not from me. They have access to more information than I do and are putting it out like clothes on a line in the backyard for all to see flapping in the breeze that is not obstructed by a parking deck.

Sharon,

Sorry, in the future I will refer to him as "he who shall not be named" or "you know who". Also, I hope you people never ever see V For Vendetta, as I'm fairly certain we'd have a state-wide shortage of Guy Fawkes masks.

Since the library is named after ME, I object to a parking deck blocking my beautiful name in front of the buidling. OK, I just wanted to have my d.bone moment and be self centered for a minute. It was actually fun!

But seriously it is hard not to support the Napergate Man against the 6 Council Members on this issue. We got utter brilliance on one side and utter dumbness no the other. This was an easy choice!

As why the Napergate Man has become such a hot issue. It seems both his supporters and opponents have dug up his history. And they both actually agree that this Napergate Man is stopped and ticketed for everything. Even if his dog, Abby was not wearing a seat belt, it appears he will be ticketed.

If I can recall properly, he has been ticked or arrested by the NPD for cowl lights, bright lights, emission test failure, tollway violation by his daughters, speeding tickets and I am sure I missed a few that Joe dug up and posted from the previous century! From what I am reading unlike us normal Napervillians who get breaks once in a while from the NPD, this guy has the book thrown at him each and every time in the worse way imaginable. My conclusion is they still have a vendetta against him from all the years they were wrongfully charging him and he was exposing them time and time again.

I am a first time blogger and came on becasue the Napergate Story just keeps getting more interesting with so much speculation and no answers. I think unless Ted and Jim who have the ability to get some answers, get some, the story will get bigger by the day as everyone wants to solve the Mystery behind the Masked Napergate Man. I am looking forward to the police report that Ted is requesting as a first step to Unmasking the Napergate Man!

All this Napergate stuff is getting kind of annoying. I don't understand why it's getting dragged in to literally every blog post with more than a dozen responses. Mr. Esmail is a well-off man, I'm sure he has a computer with internet access, reads the newspaper, and is more than capable of posting here. Why don't we let all this Napergate stuff die until he comes and actually posts something himself instead of the never-ending flow of "What Would Napergate Do?" postings.

Posted by: Eli Hodapp | February 13, 2008 02:54 PM

******************************************************************

Eli,
I know you mean well. But in some ironic twist you complained about Napergate stuff getting annoying. But in your short blog you mention the Napergate(Man) four times and Mr. Esmail twice. So you are tired of him but yet you mention him 6 times adding fuel to the fire. Yes in a 7 line post you mentioned him 6 times which I believe may be a record.

My observation is most Napergatians who love to talk about their leader mention him once or twice but those in opposition mention him 5 times as much while complaining about hearing about him so much.

Eli, is not included in the group bashing him as he actually attempted to stop it. He is just included in the group who is tired of hearing about him but somehow mentions him 6 times and makes sure anyone who did not hear of him, now heard of him.

Just an observation!

Since I have not voted let me vote against this unsightly library parking deck smack in the middle of a residential neighborhood!

Let me try not to mention the Napergate Man! Oops! I just did! Sorry! But he is truly someone I admire so I am glad I was allowed to mention him once since Eli got away with mentioning him 6 times. By the way, I never got tired of hearing about him so next time I hope you mention him 12 times instead of only 6 times...lol...!!! At least we are having fun and I would buy a bobble head of the Napergate Man if it would save the library...for sure! And two of Mayor Pradel if he would support the Napergate Man in his endeavor to stop the library parking deck!

eli, not a jab at mr.esmail dali yoda's race or religion. don't care what his race is, and i surely don't care about his religion. merely pointing out the man is perceived as some sort of mystic being. a cross between the dali lama and master yoda. as for being taken seriously i certainly don't need that from you, just who might you be ? as i stated before, i am not for the deck at the library, i think there are still many other options. i just don't want to hear what the dali yoda's divine cult of speedos and perfect diving has to say.

Joe,
Who are you trying to kid? I have been following you from thread to thread trying to assasinate the character of Napergatge Man?

No one knew he had a suspension for emissions control for his 19 year old Zimmer Golden Spirit until you told us! Why is it so important to dig this information up on him?

It is really his fault that his car got so old it could not pass Emissions testing anymore! Do you think he wanted this to happen?Do you think he planned on this to happen? Do you think he was purposely emitting gases in the air to poison us Napervillians?
Common Joe! Lighten up and taken it easy on our Naperville Hero!

For those who did not catch the story on another thread, the Napergate Man sold his car to a dealer in Texas for parts when he could not get it to pass the Emission Tests. It worked great but it could not pass Emissions Test. If anything it is a sad story that he had to give up a car he was attached to for 19 years. But he gave it up so the rest of us would have clean air to breathe! He made a sacrafice for us in a way so we can breathe fresh air and you are bashing him about this incident. Give me one good reason, Joe, why you would bring it up? No one lied about it! No one even knew about it. Even Blogger Police Officer could not track it down!

But you brought this incident up so you could paint him as a bad guy who had 2 suspensions in his life that were out of his control. He did the best he could! It is not the same as driving on a suspended license while he was on his 3rd DUI. It is not the same as driving on a suspended license becasue of 3 speeding tickets in one year plus a reckless driving!

I just suspect all of us human beings have such things happen to us in life. So when you bring these bizare and sad stories up, it makes us like him more instead of less. We like him because of his struggles in life and his ability to overcome so much. So all you told us is he had other struggles in life he was trying to overcome while he was trying to help us overcome the bigger struggles in our lives.

Most of us can barely even deal with daily struggles of life let alone make time for these big struggles he went thru time and time again for us residents. I am sure Ameena is still busy digging up more of his struggles. I just noticed we have not heard from her for a while. Has anyone heard from her lately? So she probably has a big story coming soon right from this library we are talking about as she is usually at the scene there. It is like her headquarters so I doubt she would be for a parking deck at her second home!

OK, I hope you take it easy on the Napergate Man, Joe! It is really obvious what you are trying to do. You are trying to put him under the microscope and find some faults with him. Of course, you will find some faults. No one ever said he was perfect! We only said he was a very nice and hard working guy!

Did you know Joe. that President Bill Clinton and Presidential Candiate Barak Obama both smoked marijuana and committed crimes. They broke the law! No one bashes them! So really your bashing of a man walking his dog Abby in his neighborhood is uncalled for!

And just for the record since I have not expressed my opinion I am also against the library with the Napergate Man and over 70 boggers who have supported him so far. I am sure more will come in the near future!

My gut tells me no deck will ever be built at Nichols Library. Pushing back its construction, the hand-wringing over tying it in with library expansion, the close council votes, the debate over financing, not to mention the public opposition: to me these are all signs it's not going to happen.

Posted by: Ted Slowik, host | February 12, 2008 07:15 PM

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Ted,
I certainly hope you gut is right. But please don't depend on your gut.

Why don't you and Jim publish some strong editorials and help us by condemning this stupid decision by our council.

I really think this hysteria about the Napergate Man will only die down when you and Jim take over the bus that he drove for 2 decades. Only a newspaper can drive the bus this Napergate Man was driving. We have to admit he was a SUPERHUMAN of sorts that will not be replaced by another human.

So really it is time for the Naperville Sun to step up to the plate and take over where the Napergate Man left us 7 years ago.

There is so much frustration in town because of the VOID he left and until we fill it the frustration will remain rampant!

Response from Ted, Host:

Virginia,

We've published an editorial saying what we think. It's not exactly the position you want, but that's our opinion. You're welcome to write a letter to the editor with your opinion. I don't see The Sun calling for a march on city hall over the parking deck any time soon, but we did cover the kids when they marched on city hall over it.

Dear Resident of the Meadows Subdivison,

If you bother to actually read my posts, you would read where I said I actually admire the NG man for taking a stand for that he believed in. I did not 'bash' him. I pointed out errors where others (the self appointed cheerleaders) made blanket statements about never doing anything wrong, etc which those statements turned out to not be entirely true. No one is trying to 'bring the man down' like you claim. I am setting the record straight when someone makes an outlandish claim and there it proof to the contrary. That is not 'bringing the man down'. Please take your US versus THEM attitude and focus it on something more appropriate. I never asked anyone to dislike the gentleman. Please site a posting of mine where I said people have to hate him or should dislike him or make any other reference about what someone's opinion of the gentleman should be.

I actually share the same opinion on this topic. I feel the garage is not needed. I already pointed out twice that DF is not the man to stop this because I feel that he has too much of a chip on his shoulder and in the past couple of years can not admit he was wrong. Because he made a motion in 2 different meetings to move this project forward and also voted twice with AYES to move the project forward, I believe he is a lost cause when it comes to derailing this.

I also want to voice my disapproval to this insane parking stucture at the library.

I love Dor's post and I plan on doing a drive thru tonight and taking in the beautiful sight before our City Council Members destroy it for ever.........how sad!!!

I JUST WANT TO SAY NO, NO, AND A STRONGER NO TO THE LIBRARY PARKING DECK!

IT HAS TO BE THE STUPIDEST DECISION OUR CITY COUNCIL MADE IN ITS 176 YEAR HISTORY!

I THINK ALL 6 COUNCIL MEMBERS SHOULD RESIGN IMMEDIATELY FOR NOT DOING THEIR HOMEWORK OR EVEN THE SLIGHTEST OF RESEARCH.

IT IS REALLY TIME WE START SHOWING UP AT THESE COUNCIL MEETINGS IN LARGE NUMBERS AGAIN LIKE WE DID IN THE NAPERGATE ERA. IF WE DON'T ONLY GOD KNOWS WHAT THEY WILL DO TO OUR BEAUTIFUL NAPERVILLE!

Eli,
Just a thought! I don't think you really want the Napergate Man to post here if you want this Napergate Man thing to die.

There would be hysteria! I hope he does not post! It would get 10 times as bad. This is all happening while he is walking his dog Abby and minding his own business.

If you want to blame anyone for this hysteria, blame the Naperville Sun. There was some talk about him but after the Napergatians saw that Sunday Edtition of the Naperville Sun, you could say Host Ted and Moderator Jim woke up 3500 people who were in deep hibernation. If they run another artilce on the Napergate Man, I guarantee you we will see more hysteria on these blogs...much worse than you are seeing now.

So if you want to blame anyone look at Ted and Jim. They Revisited the Napergate Man and Reignited the Napergatian Movement in the process. This was a very powerful movement in the 90s and early 00s. They ran slates of coucil members and could get 3 or 4 elected each time. And they had the Napergate Man always willing to run them full page ads and repeat them at his personal expense. Once he repeated a full page ad 4 times! I will never forget that. The Man was a manipulator and he had brainwashing power. You can see the effects right on these threads.

As Council Man Siddal once said "leave the sleeping dog lying." Well, someone woke him, his dog Abby, and his supporters up and we now have an INTERNET RALLY instead of a STREET VALLEY! I wonder if Ted and Jim could throw some ballons on the site and ask their technicians to install the sound of honking horns. We would have Spring Green II right here on Ted's blogs. No need to do street rallies anymore. The Napergate Era is over! It is now the Ted Blog Era!


PS. But on a serious note I do support the Napergate Man in his fight to stop the library parking deck. I think it is commendable that he spoke up on this important issue. He has not spoken in 7 years so I don't see what all the fuss is about. Let the Napergatians have their party! Everyone likes a good party and we all know Ted serves good food! Remember that last dinner party he had!

I am very proud to say I am a Napergatian and support the Napergate Man and all other Napergatians in this battle to stop the library parking lot.

I believe this is a good cause and worth fighting for. While I agree with the Napergate Man, I also feel on my own this is a very bad more by the City Council and should be reversed and hopefully will be reversed.

I think the only reason the Napergate Man's name is resurfacing is because the city is making terrible decisions. If they would read their materials and drive by a few times and give it some thought, they probably would not make such terrible decisons.

I watched the last council meeting on TV. It last less than 40 minutes and they just pretty much rubbder stamped everything without discussion.

So I would say that their laziness in rubber samping is why we are suddenly yearning for the Napergate Man all over again. He would force them to think. If they did not think, he would run ads to shame them. Now they suddenly do not have to think or worry about the Napergate Man shaming them in his Napergate Ads. All they have to worry about is picking up their $416.66 for each council meeting and going home.

For the last meeting they made what amounts to a $625 per hour rate and did little to nothing but rubber stamp. Even the sharpest attorneys and doctors don't make $625 dollars an hour. But our city council do!

And they can't even use common sense and realize that a library parking deck is not needed and looks ugly. So I would have to say whenever the City Council makes an unintelligent decision they make us think of the Napergate Man! It is really that simple. If they would not make such bad decisons we would not be thinking and remembering him so much! So blame the City Council why he suddenly surfaced again! Blame the Naperville Police for their handling of the Dick Furstenau why he surfaced again. Don't blame us Napergatians! We did nothing but react!

I want to support the Napergate Man and his supporters against this parking lot structure. I agree with them and I want to say this Napergatian group is a very fine group of individuals.

When the Brestal Law Firm and developers tried to put a huge shopping center and high rise office complex next to our subdivision on 75th St. and Naper Blvd., we asked the Napergate Man for help and he gave us the help. He ran ads for us at his expense. He asked all his Napergatian supporters to battle with us and they did!

Brestal knew what was coming after the Spring Green battle. He backed off and we have not seen Brestal in over 9 years. Our entire subdivision will always be indebted to the Napergate Man.

I think he is getting all this attention now, because the old Naperville Sun never recognized him. I recall when they did articles about all these battles the only person never mentioned in a Sun article was the Napergate Man. It was very odd since he was by far the power behind these battles! We all knew that. He had a great support structure and from these Napergatians that are bloggin these days. Notice how intelligent his supporters are! I am amazed at the logic that Napertations use to make their great arguments!

So I am grateful to the new Naperville Sun for finally opening the floodgates and letting us praise a hero who was truly kept a top secret by the old Naperville Sun.

And let us not forget it is he with his comments that got this library issue on the front burner so we could fight it. And let us also not forget blogger Napergatain Maryann who was the one who suggested to Host Ted to make a thread out of it.

If we keep quiet and the Napergatians don't get involved we all know what happens. Five people go to the Council Meetings and the City Council ignores them. We should embrace the Napergatians for finally wanting to be involved in our political process again. I guess how long can one expect them to sit on the sidelines while the City Council continues to destroy our residential neighborhoods.

The beautiful library is in a residentail neighborhood. Think about the poor residents living across Jefferson St. that would suddenly have a mamouth 500 car parking garage literraly at the doop steps of their front doors. Think about the collapsing value of their homes. Our City Council Members(at least 6 of them) have no humanity towards residents.

The Napergate Man was full of humanity. No wonders we all yearn for him and miss him. He was a great man who always watched out for us small folks who did not have the power to fight City Hall.
He had he resources, stamina and brilliance to fight City Hall and fought for us residents...not for himself.

I have been to his home during those battles as a leader in the Subdivision War against Brestal and there would have been 0 impact on him nice home. So he was being unselfish and spending his personal money to help very distant neighbors. He was not only donating his money but his time. Just think about how much time it took to put those Napergate ads togther and publish them.
And it is not just like he could get them published automatically. It seemed like every Napergate ad was a battle of sorts to get approved and published.

What is there not to like about the Napergate Man? Oh yeah, Joe wants us to hate him because he got a speeding ticket and his daughter(s) ran a tollway because they did not have coin on them. Go figure! Yes, Joe we will hate him for that reason!

It is obvious to me the more people like Joe and d.bone bash him the more popular he becomes. Just keep the bashing coming! We can see right thru it! You guys are making him an ICON with your bashing. Not the Napergatians who just want to stop a parking lot at the library. The Napergate Man is a Naperville Hero and no bashing is going to bring this man down a bit...it will only elevate him further as those of us who met him know what he is about! We don't depend on anonymous bloggers for information about him.

Why just stop at bobble heads? Why not an entire Napergate product line? Coffee cups, bumper stickers, t-shirts, hats, and sweaters! All this Napergate stuff is getting kind of annoying. I don't understand why it's getting dragged in to literally every blog post with more than a dozen responses. Mr. Esmail is a well-off man, I'm sure he has a computer with internet access, reads the newspaper, and is more than capable of posting here. Why don't we let all this Napergate stuff die until he comes and actually posts something himself instead of the never-ending flow of "What Would Napergate Do?" postings.

Also, d.bone, do you really expect anyone to take you seriously when you refer to him as "dali yoda" in some not-so-cleverly disguised jab at Mr. Esmail's name, race or religion?

I think I have found a great way to pay for these parking decks without using any tax money at all. I think we should make and sell Napergate Man bobble heads! Based on everything I have read on this blog and all the others I know we would be able to sell a million of them. Everyone seems to just love the Napergate Man. Do you think he would sit for a model to be made? I hope so! Who here can ask him?

the city council members represent the people. they make decisions. we vote these people in or out if we are satisfied, or not with their decisions. now DOR, is the library really that magnificent ? last time i looked it was a so-so, ho hum building with a good view. really not much to it. the plans call for a deck on the jefferson side and it really wouldn't take that much away from it. i am not for it, but it wouldn't be that catastrophic. i think city hall should be built anew by the fire and police stations on aurora ave. the library should take over current city hall, the old library could be used for ? childrens library, community center, other city offices ? the naper settlement which is in a primo area should be moved to the garden plots, the city could rake in a good dollar on that,and help pay for a new city hall, the garden plots moved way outside of town. i could keep going on. sometimes change is good.

Dor (and daughter) –

Not that I support a library garage, but my understanding is that the three-story parking garage would have the first floor underground so it would only be two stories high. I don’t know how much, if at all, this would affect the view from the Riverwalk. Of course, it still is not a good fit for that area of town, not matter how high it is built.

I like that you acknowledged that we don’t have to fight this plan because the Napergate Man opposes it, but because it is the right thing to do.

Also, I never said you lied about your conversation with the Napergate Man (Caroline implied I did), but the best source is, as they say, straight from the horse’s mouth.

T.B.

Caoline (assumed to be Caroline) –

I am not and never have condemned anyone for wanting to keep a low profile. However, as good as some people appear to be regarding the source of their Napergate Man statements, I choose to take it with a grain of salt as he has not spoken publicly himself.

Ted and Jim would be the first to tell you that they are not the arbiters of truth and they only censure obscenities. The facts are left up to us to debate.

Also, I question the value of the statements themselves as I do not believe that one person who took on city hall and won is qualified as a city planner. He achieved something great and can have his opinion of the library garage (if he cared to share them with us), but that does not mean his opinion should be weighed more than mine or yours, Caroline. I think he’d be the first to state that, given what we’ve been told about his character.

Lastly, is it the likes of me who is “obsessed” with the Napergate Man and brought him into this new thread, or was that done by others? As I read the thread’s heading, I don’t see the words “Napergate” anywhere. This is just where the Napergatians migrated when their Napergate thread was rightly pushed off the main page.

T.B.

Caroline,
Thank you for your nice letter. I would never lie about what the Napergate Man told me. I live 15 houses south of his home and he would never let me hear the end of it if I ever lied about something he said. I consider him a very good friend and a very good neighbor. What motivaton would I have to lie?

I don't go to the library! But my daughter and I drove there last night to see what the Napergate Man was talking about and all you nice bloggers. I could not believe how beautiful that area between the Nichols Library and City Hall was at night with all that snow, the river, the Memorial for the Napergate Man's former employee, the bridges, the trees, the open land, and on and on. It was so breath taking. I have never seen anything this beautiful in all my years in China...nothing close to this pretty!

It is easy to understand why we are the second most beautiful town in America. It is easy for me to understand why the Napergate Man who told me over a dozen times he loves Naperville why he wants to keep our Council Members from destroying it even though I know he is retired. He is tired from 20 years of fighting City Hall! How much can one man fight? Do we expect him to spend the rest of his life fighting City Hall and then die never having enjoyed his kids and his dog Abby! What kind of life would that be for any human being? People need to have a life and not be fighting all the time day and night!

I am so glad so many people are speaking out so it is just not only the Napergate Man's voice being heard. He once told me he does not like to speak out because he is afraid the City Council will do the opposite of what he suggests since most of them don't like him. That could be another reason he does not like to speak out. He wants them to come to their senses without him having to speak out all the time.

But after my visit last night to that area of downtown, I want everyone to visit and see how beautiful it is...mighty beautiful! City Hall is very beautiful! My daughter told me, Mom, can you imagine City Hall building a 3 level parking garage in front of their building. I told her no, I could never imagine they would do that!

And then she asked me why do they want to build a 3 story garage in front of this magnificent library. I said I don't know! Yes, we saw a huge sign last night on the library that said "The Number One Library in America" posted along the very handsome entrance. I assume that sign is true. So why do we want to block the view of "The Number One Library in America" so we can not see it anymore. I don't understand. And the library is so much prettier on the river side on Jackson St. in case someone did not notice. Very, very pretty! Gorgeous pretty!

I want to be nice! I hope our City Council revisits this library as the Naperville Sun revisted the Napergate Man. They need to see they made a huge mistake. Please, please change your minds and make the right decision! You don't have to do what the Napergate Man tells you to do. Just do what is right for the citizens and the City of Naperville! Please!

Thank you,
Dor and her daughter

the napergate man ! can i say, the grand wizard, his royal highness, the esteemed dali yoda was not the first one or the only one to speak out on the library deck. as a matter of fact HE hasn't spoken a word, as far as i know. i guess he doesn't need to. with the likes of speedo bob, ameena, caroline, etc... do you remember the movie, "the usual suspects" ? where is kaiser sosay ? who is kaiser sosay ? well... anyone who claims they can just drive around a bit and find a space downtown is wrong. we could use more parking. is the library the best place ? probably not. paw paw lot looks better to me, a four story deck at city hall seems better to me. the new lots at main and van buren should help. i personally don't care what the napergate man has to say about anything. and caroline, you bring up this DOR person, c'mon ! she or he claim the city of naperville police are worse than the military police of red china ! i recall there were lots of people down in guyana who liked what jim jones had to say too ?

Caoline,

I do not have an axe to grind. People are being less than honest with facts about someone and I did my own research as many of you have trumpted as being the right thing to do. Now, when someone does their own research and spends their own money to seek the truth they have an axe to grind and it's looked upon as being a bad thing...?

As said to Bob, your hunches of my profession are wrong. I am in no way affiliated with any law enforcement firm, agency or department. I simply choose to put my money where my mouth is and seek the truth. Many self-appointed cheerleaders were making claims about things being all someone has ever done wrong, so I decided to check into it myself using legal means that anyone can do themselves on the internet with a credit card and a car trip to the court house. Now, all of a sudden doing research is a bad thing? Ok, well, if it's bad for me to do it, then it's bad for Ameena, bad for Melissa to do it and it was a bad thing for the Napergate man to do it too.

To the contrary, I actually have respect for the NG man's perseverance and willingness to stand up to the system. Do I think he was always right every time he stood up to it? No, I don't; especially when he's had the same root cause of a couple of legal problems. That problem being "I didn't receive proper notice in the mail". His tax penalty appeal was denied because the court said that was not a valid excuse and it was not a valid excuse when he was arrested for driving with a suspended driver's license. But, that's his right as a citizen to stand up and legally fight and I respect that right. I think his self-appointed cheerleaders here though are doing him a disservice by making claims about him or his past that may not necessarily be the whole truth and nothing but the truth. If you have a problem with anything, have it with them because they are the ones who were not getting their stories or their facts straight. If they did, then I would probably have nothing to post.

T.B.,
I don't see what the problem is if the Napergate Man decides to keep a low profile and speak thru others. If I recall correctly Moderator Jim was asking Dor, the nice Chinese Lady, if she could track the Napergate Man down, so they could get his views on current affairs or events. She could not track him down because I guess he does not walk his small dog, Abby when we have a foot of snow on the ground. Understandable!

So she writes Moderator Jim and tells him the Napergate Man is worried about the scenic view at the Library disappearing with the building of an unnecessary deck. Dor says he was very concerned about this issue when they took a walk a while back and mentioned it repeatedly.

Are you implying T.B., that this nice Chinese Lady named Dor, just made up this whole story about the Napergate Man's position on the Library. She told this story way before we started bloggin on the subject. Maybe a week or two before! I think Dor's story was confirmed by his friend Bob and another friend or neighbor. Are they all just making this stuff up? I doubt it!

I think if a man is tired of the media, court battles and council battles, he has a right to take a back seat. Maybe as Mr. Randall did he wants to take 10 years off to spend time with his kids and try to catch up on things he missed out on during his well documented 20 years of struggles. I was very happy to hear indirectly from him. I hope we hear more from him. If he is taking his 10 year hiatus, as Mr Randall did to spend some quality time with his kids and dog Abby, we probably won't hear form him for 3 more years as I believe we are in the 7th year of his sabbatical.

It is NOT like he said he wants to blow up or bomb City Hall or the Naperville Police Station! All he said is that he finds a parking deck at the library site distasteful. I suspect he made the comment because not enough people were taking this issue seriously and it was bothering him. I think Ted posted an article that only a handful of people showed up to protest the library parking deck. I am sure if he read that in the newspaper he was probably infuriated only 5 people showed up so he had to say something to help save the library and try to movitate people.

Anyway all this is my speculation! I just want to say unlike T.B., must of us would rather hear from the Napergate Man indirectly than not at all. I am sure if some lunatic claims to be the Napergate Man and writes a blog saying he wants to blow up City Hall, that Host Ted and Moderator Jim would know and not publish it. Give them some credit! They do vet these blogs obviously for libel and some accuracy before they publish them. I actually think they do a very good job considering they were not on the scene when the Napergate Man told Dor that this library is a disaster. I suspect if they did not believe Dor or thought she was blatantly lying, neither Jim or Ted would publish. They do have standards and want their blog site to be credible and successful. I don't believe their intention was to set up the one millionth AOL chat room or feel they are competing against AOL. Maybe I am wrong but I think they are more interested in competeing with blog sites like Eric Zorn of the Tribune, who brings results to the world thru the knowledge he obtains from many sources including his bloggers

And unlike us bloggers, Ted and Jim have e-mails of people writing to them. They can verify authenticity of bloggers much better than we can. I suspect they can tell when someone is making a fraudulent statement or pretending to be say Mayor Pradel.

If some yoyo published under Anonymous and claims he speaks for the Napergate Man, I seriously doubt Host Ted will publish the nonsense. His friend Bob, gave his e-mail address and full name to Host Ted. So I don't think he is going to be fabricating stories as to what someone said or did not say.

In summary, your statement,T.B.,

"What I object to is the use of his name for a cause when we have absolutely no real idea how he feels since he has not spoken out himself."

just really makes no sense. He has spoken to his real neighbors and real friends about issue that concern him such as the library. I think he expressed through others how he feels. Some people just don't like personal or media attention.

I believe Ameena or Randy had written somewhere that the Napergate Man never once mentioned his name in his ads. Even then he spoke to us indirectly and not directly. To be exact his name according to either Ameena or Randy(can't recall) only appeared once in 44 Napergate ads that were repeated 2 or 3 times each. I guess that one time was when he was quoting verbatim the Appellant Court ruling and the quote contained his last name. I guess he finally coughed up his name in order not to lose his credibility by altering the verbatim words of the Appellant Court by leaving his last name out. I believe that is the only time his name could be found in his ads(non-Napergate political and Napergate) over a dozen plus years.

I don't think we should be condemning a guy who would rather focus on the issues at hand as opposed to himself. He just seemed to be an unselfish guy and not being self-centered like d. bone who selected himself as the best blogger ever in the history of Naperville. All the talk about the personal affairs of the Napergate Man is coming from bloggers. Mostly from people like Joe, RJ and d.bone who have an agenda of taking his 1/100 of 1% imperfections and trying to paint him to be a very bad guy...even a criminal of sorts for some traffic violations...lol! They make it so OBVIOUS! And the rest of us are trying to defend him and saying it ain't so!

It does puzzle me that individuals like Joe, d.bone, R.J, T.B. and others become obsessed with the person and not the issues he is fighting for. Almost like let us ignore the credible message by seeing if we can tarnish the credibility of the messenger since we know the message is true. First, Joe was obsessed with Ameena! Now he suddenly is obsessed with the Napergate Man after trying to ignore him for over a month. He claims he never met the Napergate Man or even knew much about him, but on another site he claims to be paying $50 bucks to go to internet sites and dig mud on him. If you are willing to pay $50 bucks to dig mud on someone, my guess is you know that person and have an "ax to grind" as some blogger said before me.

Normal people just don't spend $50 bucks to investigate people they read about in the media or on a blog site. But as some bloggers have said before me, I would not be surprised if Joe had direct or indirect access to Naperville Police Computers. I have no proof! But I just have a hunch Joe is a police officer or has some strong connections to the police dept. to be acting so irrationally against an OUTSANDING CITZEN AND AN AMERCICAN HERO!

Rod R -

All good suggestions, but I doubt people would want to park at the beach and be bused to downtown.

If busing from remote (or relatively remote) lots were the answer, then I like Eli's idea of a deck at the train station. It would provide commuter parking during the day and restaurant parking at night. The bus ride would be a short 1/2 mile.

T.B.

My gut tells me no deck will ever be built at Nichols Library. Pushing back its construction, the hand-wringing over tying it in with library expansion, the close council votes, the debate over financing, not to mention the public opposition: to me these are all signs it's not going to happen.

T.B.

First, I want to let people know that I have a conflict of interest related to this topic. I have a son who is an engineer with Carl Walker and Associates. They design and oversee the construction of new parking structures as well as repair/expand existing structures. His firm fixed the parking deck problem at City Hall as well as designed and provided the construction management services on the Van Buren Street garage.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that the Chicago Ave. garage should be tackled first. It needs to be torn down and a larger one built on that site. All vehicles need to be able to enter or exit on either Chicago Ave or Jefferson Street. The new fine arts building will need the parking when the expected 50% of non-college use kicks in. With more parking there, the Nichols Parking deck would likely not be needed for additional parking.

One Naperville resident, Roger McDonald, made several eloquent presentations on the poor ecomonics of the Nichols Library garage proposals before the City Council in 2006. There were a number of others that also spoke against the proposals put forth by the city staff.

I spoke on several occasions against building parking decks at Nichols Library. I suggested that other alternative sites should be considered. For example, on the site of the Al Rubin Senior Cnter. That building is not very functional.

Also, since our city fathers (and mothers) deem it wise to put a large building next to the Riverwalk on Water Street, they therefore should not hesitate to build a large parking structure at Centennial Beach. From there, the restraurant patrons could be bused. And, since it is the peak evening hours that the restraurant owners need more parking, perhaps there is no need to build a parking deck at Centennial Beach. Just bus the people from the existing spaces there (after dark when no activity is going on at the beach). The cost of the buses would be minimal and the restaurant owners could pay for the drivers.

Another alternative I suggested was to build a parking deck just south of Naperville Settlement (and north of the District 203 Administration Building) where the existing parking lot exists. During the school year, during the daytime, the Naperville Central students could use it. During the summer, it could be used by the Naperville Settlement. And, during evening hours, it could handle the restaurant parking needs, with busing if needed.

Caroline –

I have no animosity towards the Napergate Man. In fact, I think he did some great things. In case you missed it, on this issue I’m on the same side as the Napergate Man’s self-appointed mouthpieces.

What I object to is the use of his name for a cause when we have absolutely no real idea how he feels since he has not spoken out himself. It has nothing to do with whether or not I like the Napergate Man (I like him), or what you may think of him (I don’t care). I just have doubts about people who claim to speak for others. Hearsay is just not a good source.

I did not “poison” the Napergate thread. I questioned the analysis put forth by some of the bloggers. If they chose to answer with insults instead of facts, that’s their problem. I have always strived to remain civil even when I’ve been attacked for nothing more than sharing my opinion.

As to the garages –

While the city is on the garage business, I think the Chicago Ave garage should be expanded and built higher, even if that means tearing down the existing garage. We could easily go up to the height of the Van Buren garage and still not block the view of the new fine arts center from downtown.

T.B.

Eric, I believe you're overreacting to Eli's "lowly valet" comment. He was being facetious.

As for the topic at hand, building a parking garage next to the library is a ridiculous idea. It's such a terrible idea for all the reasons already mentioned.

Eric, the existing parking garages can easily be designed to accommodate additional floors, eh? A engineer and a valet, you sir are truly a jack of all trades. I was being sarcastic when I insulted your profession, this is Naperville after all, where we look down upon anyone less fortunate than ourselves! (Check out the thread regarding the Pace bus system for people referring to them as "undesirables".)

Comparing a municipally funded garage to Edward construction is kind of silly. We're dealing with taxpayer money versus a medical conglomerate that has more money than God. The board of Edward Hospitals can snap their fingers and say "make it work" regardless of cost, do you want to foot the bill for similar action by the city council?

Either way, I'm sorry the mere notion of wearing footwear which don't cripple your ability to walk is so abhorrent. :(

Amy, I like your thinking... But you expect people to WALK from City Hall? That's like, an extra 2 minutes! Do you know how hard that is in 6" high heels?! What do you think this is? The slums of Gary? We're privileged enough in Naperville that we shouldn't have to do anything more than roll out of our cars and on to a bar stool.

Brenda,
Did you ever notice City Hall is less than 90 yards or 100 steps south of the library. The parking lot is always empty! It is public and you are allowed to use it. It is even empty during City Council meetings ever since the Napergate retired! Maybe you will find 5 cars driven by Mr. Randall and his supporters and the 9 cars of the City Council members. A few more for city staff that are required to be at the meeting! That is it, Brenda! Oh, I forgot there is usually one car that belongs to a Naperville Sun reporter that may be covering the meeting for us. So you will find a few hunderd empty spots. I can not imagine anyone can be that lazy high heels or no high heels!

I suppose you wear high heels when you go to the library!

Finally the Napergate Man and his supporters get an opponent that they are really going to have a difficult time persuading. Yes, there is always one ignorant person amongst us. And to think that person goes to the LIBRARY!

When people like you come out with no logic or the sligtest of common sense, you make the Napergate Man look ever so much more brilliant without ever uttering a word. No wonder the Napergate Man never talks any more. He does not have to!!!

Watch it Eli! Don't be insulting valet by calling them "lowly."

Last time Ameena had a slip of the tongeu she apologized immediately.

I am looking forward to your apology to all valet people in Naperville and the USA.

I thought Ted was going to refuse posting insults on these blogs.

Most valet people are extremely nice, do it as second job, and make more money per hour than most employees. So it is not "lowly" in any sense. A valet contractor handling 10 cars in one hour at 5 bucks each is making $50 per hour. May I ask how much you make per hour, Mr. Hot Shot Eli!

I valet part time and you insulted me with your comment. Please leave it on Ted, so the world can see how small minded this Eli character is.

Top that with the fact that he expects ladies on their way to clubbing it not to wear high heels. Or walk a half a mile in high heels...has he ever tried that! Or he wants them to wear their tennis shoes while on the way to night clubbing the night away! Let the ladies dress as they please! We can accomodate them by building a newer garage a few stories higher. It can easily be designed that way. It is true that it is not always possible to take an old garage and build on it. But sometimes it can be done. Edward's Hospital took an old building and added 5 stories to it. Mr. Smart Man Eli wants us to believe it was a LEGO job! Go get a life, Eli! You are dumb and insulting!

WE NEED A NEW PARKING GARAGE AT LIBRARY.

Are you kidding me? Everyone is afraid of a little taxes because we don't need a parking lot near the library. I, for one, spend much of my Thursday there and have trouble finding a parking spot.

And yes, I do find it hard to walk to the Metra station from where I live if I want to park and walk downtown.

We so badly need a new parking deck by the library and it will only be a few months after the council approves that we will have one.

--Brenda R.

Since we all agree on the library issue and there appears to be no debate I thought I would make this post of the 75th St. Corridor Planning Issue. I suspect this will be a very hot issue with substantial debate. It was in the 90s and early 00s when the Napergate Man led very large groups of residents against Spring Green and S.W. Gate(SW corner of 75th and Naper. Blvd).

My opinion is that after surrendering to the Napergate Man and his supporters on 75th St., City Officials and the Brestal Law Firm are ready to ponce again on commercializaton of 75th St. now that they feel the opposition is not organized and in disaray without the Napergate Man and Activist Donna Rogers. Little credit is given to this Donna Rogers activist but she was the Napergate Man's top lieutanent and was very intstrumental in helping him get over 300 protestors on that Spring Green intersection. In addition to those 300, they brought all their kids to carry balloons and all their cars to beep their horns and cause havoc on that intersection before the final vote overturned numerous previous votes.

Here is a letter I got this morning from the City of Naperville. I am posting it in hopes you will attend and so we won't be behind as in the Library Parking Deck and Ponds of Hobson West. Let us try to nip these issues befor the City Council rules. It is much much easier than overturning their decisions like the Napergate Man and Donna Rogers had to do over and over again.

One thing that puzzles me about those 2 individuals and I can not figure out reading all these blogs is why they always waited for the city council to rule against before participating and overturning or reversing. Maybe Moderator Jim or Host Ted have answers why these 2 unique inviduals never got involved unless they were 7 or 9 feet under as some blogger on another thread properly indicated. I hope somone has an answer! I am simply curious why they wanted their battles to be so difficult.

Below is the letter: Please show up at the next meeting. We may have lost the library battle but I hope not. I hope the Council reads our blogs and cares just a touch about our views to consider changing their position.

==================================================================

Dear Participants:

Thank you for your participation in the 75th Street Corridor Study Online Survey sponsored by the City of Naperville. We greatly appreciate your input through the survey. The online survey results, taken together with other sources of information (i.e. the property owner survey, key person interviews, the initial public meeting, and the market study), will help staff draft preliminary goals and objectives for the 75th Street Corridor Study.

Our next public event has been scheduled! A public meeting will be held on February 21, 2008 at 7 p.m. in Meadow Glen School Multi-purpose Room at 1150 Muirhead Avenue. During this public meeting, staff will share a summary of the public input received so far, present the market study conducted by Houseal Lavigne Associates, and seek public review of the draft goals and objectives of the 75th Street Corridor Study. We look forward to your participation and input at this upcoming meeting!

Thank you again for your time and involvement. For more details and updates about the 75th Street

===============================================================================================

Just a thought. In the above letter they stated they interviewed "key persons." I wonder if they interviewed the Napergate Man. Unlike the Naperville Sun I am sure the City of Naperville can track him down. He has businesses in town and they must have his phone number for fire department safety, liquor licensing and other matters. My guess is the City of Naperville would never ever interview the Napergate Man as a "key person" because he will not give them the answers they are seeking. Maybe the Napergate Mans friends Bob and Mike who read these blogs but rarely post could be kind enough to shed some light for us.

Thanks Ted and Jim for letting me post on a subject not entirely related but I am just trying to be ahead of the game. I felt hopeless when I tried to help in the Ponds of Hobson West. That battle seemed to be in the coffin with the coffin nailed. I could not envision what I could do!

PS. Maybe Jim or Ted can find out from the City of Naperville if they bothered interviewing Mr. Esmail. If they don't consider him a "key person" then I have to state their interviewing process is flawed. I understand he remains a resident very close to 75th St. I also am aware from reading these blogs that Activist Donna Rogers no longer lives in the Chicagoland Area.

Were the parking garages originally engineered to allow for expansion? Given how old the Chicago Street parking garage is, and the roof/elevator system in the Van Buren garage, I highly doubt it. It's not like they're built out of Legos and we can just go buy another bucket of bricks. Furthermore, construction traffic and equipment would substantially limit available parking at your proposed construction site(s), but more likely involve closing the parking garage(s) completely during construction. I can't imagine cranes and cement trucks pouring concrete above parked cars.

As far as being unable to walk half a mile without needing a foot massage... Maybe try wearing more sensible shoes, visiting a podiatrist, or hitting the gym? I walk to and from the train all the time, and I've never found myself crippled in pain or needing a nap. Besides, this is Naperville, why not let the lowly valet deal with walking to and from your car!

Kathleen, from your post earlier-

"I think you are a little off with your plan. A parking deck at the train station would not be able to serve the dual purpose you are noting. That parking deck would be much too far of a walk to downtown especially in the winter."
I guess you and I have different definitions of what is and isn't walkable. From the Metra lot to downtown Naperville is about a half mile walk. There's always cabs in the downtown area and at the train station if that is unbearable, and maybe the city could even put that stupid Naperville trolly to good use to serve as a shuttle during the peak hours.
Eli

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Eli,

I think you are wrong and Kathleen is right. If the Metra Parking would work for downtown we would not be building gargages or considering it. Currently after 7pm it is a graveyard there and you can find all kinds of parking. No one is willing to go up there. They would rather circle for 5 minutes until a spot opens up in the ACTUAL DOWNTOWN. And what is wrong with circling and taking in the view for a few minutes. It is actually fun!

The beauty of downtown is convenience. No one wants to park and take a cab. This is not Chicago! It is a little different in the suburbs. And who needs that additional expense of a taxi ride.
Also try to get a cab home on a busy Friday or Saturday night. I actually saw a fist fight between 2 girls on New Year's Eve over a cab and one of the girls boyfriend was arrested by police when he interfered to break the fight up or possibly particpiate on the side of his girl friend.

Kathleen's suggestion of going one or two stories higher makes much more sense than yours of expecting ladies in high heels to walk in negative 2 degree weather or even beautiful weather a half a mile. Are you ready to give a 100 ladies foot massages every night, Eli! If not foget your plan.

Why don't you consider Kathleen's suggestion?

Metra needs more parking but that is a separate issue from downtown parking.

Going a few stories higher is really the solution. It can also save the library so we can keep the Napergatians and Napervillians both very happy since they appear to be on the same side of this issue which is awesome.

So it is the whole world against 6 council members. We have got to flip them the same way the Napergate Man use to flip them....no different than you flip an a hamburger. We can do it if we show up in large numbers. I believe that was his secret recipe of his numerous REVERSALS.

Ted,
Thanks for the assist. I think I can figure out the rough cost of these parking garages. Unless someone has an exact number!

But can you or anyone tell me who how many retail and office square feet of space are in downtown area? My guess is a million but I have no clue!

That would really help me nail the cost of parking per square foot for each tenant in the downtown area compared to tenants in outlying plazas.

Someone has to know!

Note from Ted:

Sorry, in a rush today. Misunderstand your question, apparently. I don't have that figure, perhaps the chamber of commerce might have an estimate on its Web site.

However, is it possible for people to make an informed opinion in this matter without knowing what the Napergate Man probably thinks about this? Did I miss his post with his own opinion? Or are others still speaking for him?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
T.B.

I think you missed that numerous bloggers had run into the Napergate Man and indicated he had been complaining about the library parking deck for a while now. I believe some lady named Maryann suggested this post to Ted and said it would generate a lot of interest because of the Napergate Man's comments. She obviously was very right!

So he may have been the catalyst but as you can see the bloggers are thinking on their own and crunching numbers like Realtors Ryan and Liebert. Maryann predicted it would be a big hit, and it is because of the comments of the Napergate Man. If you don't like dealing with Napergate and Napergate Man issues feel free to blog on other threads that have 0 posts. No one is stopping you from going to those other blogs if you don't like hearing about comments the Napergate Man made indirectly. Some of us like to hear his comments direct or indirect. We trust him! Let us think as we wish and you can think as you wish.

There is nothing wrong with people building on knowledge obtained from the Napergate Man over a decade or two.

If Boeing did not build new knowledge on top of old knowledge we would still have that Wilbur/Wright plane or whatever it was called in 1908 or around that time.

We need to build on our knowledge and use it as a foundation for newer and better knowledge. Let us not start trouble on this thread. It has been very peacful to this point!

You and a few others like d. bone were contributing factors in poisoning the Napergate thread. Let us keep it civil here, T.B., as Ted has recommended we do. I just wanted to point out your comment early, in case there is an escalation we know who to pin it on.

If you don't like the Napergate Man like us majority simply try to ignore him. Try not to mention him and give us your thoughts.
Don't worry about how the rest of us feel about him. That is our business and not yours!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

PS. Since I have not posted yet, I would like to say I support the Napergate Man in his stance against the parking deck at the library. I trust him enough I do not plan on doing any research on my own. He has got a great track record and I am sticking with him for now.

The current garages are funded through special services areas in the downtown.

Rod Randall –

Though you correctly state that the tax will be born by the restaurant customers, the burden is that sooner or later one tax too far will be implemented and the customers will go elsewhere to eat to avoid the taxes. How do we know if we’ve reached that point yet?

Ted –

How were the current parking garages (Van Burn and Chicago Ave) funded? Aren’t the downtown merchants (all of them) already paying a special downtown tax for these decks? If so, isn’t this close to what Ryan said strip centers charge their tenants? And wouldn’t this mean the restaurants aren’t as great a burden to the city as some have claimed? Just wondering.


I, too, think that the library parking deck will not be needed and I would hope the city would re-evaluate the need for this deck after the others are done.

However, is it possible for people to make an informed opinion in this matter without knowing what the Napergate Man probably thinks about this? Did I miss his post with his own opinion? Or are others still speaking for him?

I have it on very good authority from my cousins’ roommate’s uncle that the Pope is also against the library parking deck. That was humor people….

T.B.


Note from Ted:

I thought the special service areas were the downtown taxing districts created to pay for construction of those other decks. Going off memory and can't really look into it at the moment, so I could be way off on this one.

I loved Liebert's post.

I hope someone can get him his numbers so he can plug them in his formulas and we can find out what we are paying to subsidize this downtown parking mess for our downtown merchants who don't seem to want to foot their own bills despite making 80k on a weekend just on a patio in revenues. Time to stop feeling sorry for them and make them pay up!

His calculations of amazing. The coincidence he had with those matching numbers was really the Coincidence of Coincidences!
It was kind of freaky but I believe it was just a rare coincidence of sorts.

Check out his post! He got some tips form the Napergate Man that he expanded on!

Note from host:

I found the numbers he wanted in a story we reported a month ago, so I put that info in a note in another poster's comment.

I can see how Melissa could not see those articles. Unless you read the whole paper or know what you are looking for it is easy to miss these issues.

I think the Naperville Sun should have a page like that Napergate ads where everything comes right at you if it has anything to do with a City Council vote. Mr. Napergate would bold the sub headings so they would stick out and call for you to read them.

People rarely missed the issues in his ads because of how he highlighted everything. And if they knew they were in his ad you usually knew the council had got itself in some troube.

Maybe you can have a page with the title:

YOUR'E VERY TROUBLED COUNCIL MEMBERS

OR

MORE TROUBLE LOOMING AT CITY HALL

to get our attention and getting us to focus!

Something that would direct our attention that this is a serious issue we have to be involved in before our City Council takes us down another slippery slope.

But on a more serious note I love Liebert's long post. He really nails for the bloggers how to compute the true cost of these parking structures to the retailers. If they are not paying, it is clear we are paying for them. He does an apple to apple comparison with non-downtown retailers.

I hope Liebert can draw some charts and present them to the City Council at the next meeting.

Who has the information he is looking for? Do you know who you can call at City Hall, Ted? How about that Naperville Chamber of Commerce? Would they know? How good are your connections, Ted, to find out for us. I bet a couple of calls and you can nail the anwers for us.

He is suddenly got us curious as to the size of downtown as far as square footage. It would be nice to compare the total square footage as it relates to the number of parking spots.

I think in normal plazas you need 10 parking spots for every 1000 sq. ft. of restaurant space! I wonder what the ratio is downtown.

But if his estimates are even close us taxpayer are being shafted big time by the preferential treatment our city council gives to the downtown merchants at the expense of other merchants plus residents.


Response from host:

Your suggested headlines seem very subjective, as opposed to objective reporting. I think most people expect and prefer the most straightforward objective stories about the issues. Occasionally on the opinion page you'll see headlines and stories critical of one position or another, but that page is clearly marked Opinion.

Ted,
Great job!

But can you provide us with the information Liebert asked for in his PSS at the bottom.

I would really like that guy to compute the true cost of these garages on us taxpayers if the retailers don't pay their proper costs based on pro rata square footage. It seemed like this Napergate Man taught him something. I read his post 3 times to understand it but once I understoond it, it makes so much sense.

I urge bloggers to read it and try to supply him with the data he needs.

Only then can we demand the downtown businesses pay their fair share so we don't subsidize them by paying increased taxes on our home real estate tax bills.

Nikki:

We reported this on Jan. 11:

Newspaper:
SUN PUBLICATIONS

Date:
01/11/2008

Day of Week:
Friday

Edition:
THENAPSUN

Section:
LOCAL NEWS

Page:
9

Headline:
City announces timetable for $32 million parking deck plan

Credit:
Sun staff


[Go To First Hit]
The city of Naperville[0] on Thursday unveiled its timetable for
expanding one parking deck[0] and building two new ones that are
expected to add 1,000 total parking spaces to its downtown during the
next several years, at an estimated public cost of about $32 million.

The three projects involve expanding the Van[0] Buren[0] parking deck[0] and
construction of two new decks[0], one as part of the Water[0] Street
redevelopment and the other located next to the Nichols Library[0].

The Van[0] Buren[0] project is first up, with construction beginning this
winter and expected to wrap up by summer, the city said in a release.
Located at Main Street, between Benton and Van[0] Buren[0] avenues, the
317-space addition will be built in conjunction with Naper Main
- a mixed-use development consisting of commercial, office and
residential space.

During construction, it is anticipated that the majority of the
spaces within the existing Van[0] Buren[0] parking deck[0] will remain open to
the public, though the adjacent 51-space surface parking lot will be
closed, the city said. The city is currently reviewing construction
plans for the Van[0] Buren[0] parking deck[0] addition and a more detailed
construction schedule will be issued as information becomes
available.

When the Van[0] Buren[0] parking deck[0] addition is completed, construction
will begin on the Water[0] Street parking deck[0].

Offering more than 550 parking spaces, the Water[0] Street parking deck[0]
will be located east of the Naperville[0] Municipal Center in the
city's Water[0] Street District. The deck[0] will provide for the
additional parking demand generated by the future redevelopment of
the Water[0] Street area. Construction of the deck[0] is slated to begin in
late summer and be completed by summer 2009.

The city said the Nichols Library[0] parking deck[0] would be the third
deck[0] to be constructed in the downtown, but did not specify in the
release when work on the project was expected to commence. A
timetable on the city's Web site predicts work on the Nichols
deck[0] will begin in February 2009 and be completed by December 2009.

Information previously provided by the city indicated the
city's share of costs for each deck[0] would be $6.4 million for
Van[0] Buren[0], $6 million for Water[0] Street and $19.9 million for the
library[0] deck[0]. Developers are covering portions of costs for the Van[0]
Buren[0] and Water[0] Street decks[0], though the library[0] deck[0] would be
entirely funded by public sources.

More information is available at
www.naperville[0].il.us/parkingmanagement.aspx.


Hi, all. I was inspired by Melissa to do a little research after she said she never read about a vote on the parking deck in The Sun, and said The Sun wasn't doing its job. Well I peeked in the archive and counted 38 stories about the Nichols deck published between Jan. 1 2007 and Feb. 10 2008, not counting an editorial, numerous letters to the editor and a poll on the topic in which two-thirds of respondents said the library deck was a bad idea.

I was going to post all 38 stories but that would have taken up a lot of space, and anyway reporter Kate Houlihan skillfully compiled this much shorter summary of the history of the Nichols deck debate for your benefit. Cheers!

Here's Kate's account:

This is a complete synopsis of the Nichols Library parking deck/library expansion debate history. All information comes from Naperville Sun articles.

The Sun first reported that Nichols Library might be considered for a new parking structure on Nov. 29, 2005. That decision took place at a City Council workshop, where all decisions are non-binding until they come up again at the dais.

At that time, the idea was to construct Nichols first, then reconstruct the Central Parking Facility over on Chicago Avenue. Note that the Water Street and Naper Main developments, which are the precursors to the decks being considered today, weren’t on the radar at that point.

Soon after this idea was brought forth, library leaders began debating whether they wanted a Nichols Library expansion to be done in conjunction with deck construction. A space needs analysis done by a hired consultant called Library Planning Associates showed library officials they could use the extra space at the downtown branch, and by using some of that as office space, they could free up more space for programming at the other two library branches. Original plans called for a 30,000-square-foot expansion. An official vote to expand took place on Jan. 19, 2006 at the Naperville Public Library Board of Trustees meeting. The vote was unanimous.

Flash forward to early February 2006. Late January/early February is when the City Council traditionally holds their capital improvement plan workshops. City department heads prep capital budgets for the next five years, and in some cases provide information on projects even further in the future. Council members decide what items can be bumped out to future years to help cut costs in the interim.

The library came to the council with a $7.1 million capital improvement request in February 2006 that would allow the planned expansion to be completed at the same time as construction of the parking deck. However, some council members felt an expansion was not warranted, and that the library should look at building a fourth branch.

By Feb. 16, 2006, the construction schedule for the Nichols deck was already being pushed back, with construction documents being due in summer of 2007. This information was discussed at the February Library Board of Trustees meeting.

Talk about the expansion continued into the March 2006 City Council budget workshops. At the March 3, 2006, workshop, Councilman Doug Krause and Councilwoman Darlene Senger indicated a fourth library would be more effective. Seven council members were present. Five of them expressed interest in the library considering a separate office building in which they could consolidate all office functions.

On April 26, 2006, at yet another council workshop, a majority of the group said no to an expansion. The unofficial straw poll had then-councilwoman Mary Ellingson and Mayor George Pradel in favor of expansion, with Councilwoman Darlene Senger and Councilmen Doug Krause, James Boyajian, Richard Furstenau and Grant Wehrli against.

Come mid-May, there was some talk about bringing expansion back to the discussion table. At the end of August, Chicago-based Loebl, Schlossman & Hackl unveiled nine scenarios for the deck and possible expansion, all in varying degrees of change.

On Oct. 4, 2006, the council took the matter up once again, planning to take a final vote on whether library expansion should or should not be included. However, only eight of the council members were present, which resulted in a deadlock 4-4 vote. Boyajian was absent, and the matter was tabled to allow for full attendance.

On Oct. 17 the council decided not to build an expansion in conjunction with the parking deck. However, the group did decide to allow for a design that would provide for expansion in the future.

According to the Sun article published on Oct. 19, 2006: “A plan to build a 30,000-square-foot, $8.5 million addition at the same time as construction of the deck failed, with council members Grant Wehrli, James Boyajian, Richard Furstenau, Douglas Krause and Darlene Senger against. A second vote was immediately taken on
whether to expand the library later; it passed 5-4, with Wehrli casting the swing vote.

"The responsible thing to do is an expansion when needed," (Wehrli) said after the meeting, adding it seems deck construction had almost forced the library to push for the addition. "We can accomplish all at the right time."

The council then examined at the shape and height of the deck that will begin construction at the Nichols site after Labor Day. Close to 20 residents from the surrounding neighborhood expressed disdain over what they see as a monolith.

The council recommended what had been dubbed a modified Scheme 2,
which features a deck that stretches along Jefferson Avenue, breaks for a landscaped plaza and continues along Eagle Street. A library expansion could eventually be built on top of the part that sits near Jackson Avenue and Eagle Street. “

Shortly after this decision, a citizen-fueled anti-deck movement sprouted up, thanks to resident Chris DeVane and some very passionate and articulate high school, junior high and elementary school students. There was a march on city hall against the deck on Nov. 6, 2006, and a petition was circulated around town. Another march to city hall took place at the second council meeting that month.

Using the October council decision as a basis, four deck designs were made public in December 2006.

Now comes 2007’s happenings. At the 2007 capital improvement plan workshops, five of the nine members said they did NOT want an $8.7 million 30,000-square-foot expansion of Nichols Library to be included in the city’s five-year plan for capital projects. They also said future expansion would not be the most fiscally prudent move on the library’s part.
The $8.7 million pricetag, as compared to the original $7.1 million, had gone up due to construction material prices rising. In the straw poll taken at the Jan. 22, 2007 CIP workshop, Wehrli, Furstenau, Krause, Boyajian and Senger said they did not wish to see an expansion included. (If you are interested in reading the whole article, it is included in the Jan. 23, 2007 edition of the Sun.)

Because the expansion plans were nixed, the council started looking at redesigns that would allow for more parking in the area where planned expansion could have feasibly taken place. At another workshop they looked at whether to adjust the timing of deck construction and whether it wanted to change the design to allow for more parking.

The group said it wanted to move construction start date to January 2008 to allow for redesign and a proper public comment period. A public meeting to get feedback on deck design took place in February 2007.

On Feb. 20, 2007, the council formally voted on the deck’s new design that allowed for 540 parking spaces and a 74-foot green space plaza in the northwest corner by Jefferson and Eagle. The council voted 7-2, with Councilman Krause and Councilwoman Senger against, to approve the 540-space deck, stretching four stories along Jefferson, with three floors above ground. A three-story portion of the deck would span Eagle Street.

In July 2007, various ordinances that dealt with construction of the deck were passed by the council, with Krause, Bob Fieseler and Senger against them.

Nichols deck construction was pushed back to 2009. Since 2007, the Naper Main and Water Street developments, with their proposed parking solutions, have come before the council.

Because of the parking spaces provided by the Van Buren addition (NaperMain) and Water Street decks, at the most recent CIP workshop held just last month, city leaders said they could push Nichols deck construction off to 2010. As for the Central Parking Facility, that’s been pushed way out to 2012 or 2013, due to all these other projects coming online beforehand.

While I am not a commercial realtor, I was a small time residential builder in the 1980s in Naperville. I do know enough though that I know Commercial Realtor Ryan is right on the money as to how parking works for downtown businesses as opposed to businesses in plazas.

I used to be a frequent visitor to Mr. Esmail's liquor store on Bailey Rd. He was a fixture there in the 1980s before he delved into many other businesses. I was always curious how shopping centers worked. He owned that Bailey Rd. plaza so he had the knowledge and I remember him explaining to me in this way:

1. Tenants pay a flat rent based on a rate per square foot.


2. Tenants pay their pro rata share of CAM based on their square footage as a per cent of the entire square footage of entire plaza.


3. Tenants pay their pro rate share of Real Estate Taxes based on their square footage as a per cent of the entire square footage of the entire plaza.


4. Tenants pay their pro rata share of Insurance based on their square footage as a per cent of the entire square footage of the entire plaza.


The kicker is in #2. Businesses in plazas take full responsibility for their parking(majority of CAM) and pay for it in full based on their square footage and not sales as is being discussed in downtown. It seems this approach is fair and is handled that way by all plazas and not just Mr.Esmail's Maplebrook Plaza.

In downtown our successful merchants, restaurants and bar owners who are reaping very good revenue expect us to pay for their parking. We have been subsidizing it for many years. Now this higher tax to pay for this parking is another form of taxing the residents of Naperville for their parking problems. Yes, we will pay for these taxes with our receipts given to us upon the completion of our meals in addition to higher real estate taxes on our homes.

These businesses downtown should be assessed a tax based on square footage occupied like not only Mr. Esmail does but every plaza in the United States.

For example if it cost us to $100,000,000 to have built all these 5 or 6 decks we must bill it to the downtown businesses based on their square footage occupancy. (Actually to the landlords who have a duty to pass it thru to their tenants based on square footage they occupy in their respective plazas.)

Assume for arguments sake there is 1,000,000 square feet of retail space in downtown Naperville. Then every business's true cost for parking is $100.00 per sq.ft.

For example I was once in trying to convince a prospective tenant to move into the former Oswald's Pharmacy which is now Ted's Grill or Buffalo Steakhouse. I recall it being about 5,930 s.f. So if we want to be fair, Ted's Steakhouse should be paying $593.000 dollars to subsidize these garage charges. That is his true fair share!
Now if I am wrong and there is only 500,000 s.f. of retail space in downtown Naperville, his true cost would be $1,186,00.00. On the alternative if the total square footage of retail space in downtown Naperville is 2,000,000 s.f., Ted (not Host Ted but Ted's Steakhouse..no pun intended) should only be required to pay $296,500.

While these numbers seem outrageous they are accurate if my estimates are accurate. Hopefully Host Ted can provide us with the real numbers and I am at his service to do all the computations. But if you assume the cost of all the garages past and present is 100,000,000( which I believe is conservative) and if you assume the total square footage of retail space downtown is 1,000,000 sq. ft we have Ted's Steakhouse paying $593,000 for his share. That seems unbearable! I understand! But if we let him pay it over 20 years it is only $29,650 dollars. However we have to add about $2.00 per square foot for annual maintenance of these parking garages which is an additional $11,860. That brings us to $41,510 dollars. Is that all? No, since we are allowing Ted to make payments is anyone willing to finance the interest on these payments for the businesses that are making huge money downtown. I don't think so! If we were to finance this $100,000,000 at 7% to help our downtown business owners out, this would be roughly another $7,000,000 dollars in interest expense per year. Just by some weird coincidence this brings it up another $41,510.00 (7,000,000/1,000,000 X 5930 sq. ft.) Yes, I am amazed as you bloggers are that this number equals the other $41,510 dollars right down to the last dollar. Trust me it was a rare coincidence that just happened as I was computing.( a one in a hundred thousand chance...I am ready for Las Vegas) So if you multiply $41,510.00 X 2 = $83,020 dollars. That is Ted's true annual cost for parking per year. Is Ted' s Steakhouse paying this amount. I highly doubt it. We the taxpayers are footing the bill!. He would have to have revenue of $8,302,000 at 1% food and beverage tax to be paying his fair share thru our receipts to come up with his share in this way which is not fair anyway since we the taxpayes as customers are paying it. I highly doubt Ted is doing $8,302,000 in business. My suspicion is he may be doing between 1 to 2 million. The city and state know for sure what he is doing in volume and know if we are subsidizing Ted ( believe he may be the CNN guy ) or not. If we are subsidizing him, the City Council needs to take corrective action and stop subsidizing Ted's Steakhouse and all other businesses downtown. I know nothing about Ted or his steakhouse. I just chose it at random because I knew the square footage from a window sign when it was vacant and attempted to show it to a prospect. Yes, sometimes residential realtors do supplement their income with some commercial if we can get it.

This seems like a fair way to appropriate fair costs to business owners. The calculations are my own but the lesson was taught directly to me by Mr. Esmail(also known as the Napergate Man for some reason on these threads). I had inquired because at one time I was interested in leaving residential and going into commercial retail.

I suspect Mr. Esmail more than anyone knows about the chaos going on downtown with the parking decks not only based on aesthetics at the library but unfairness to Naperville Taxpayers who are unknowingly footing all the bills while the downtown businesses reap all the profits and take it to the bank.

For example it is well known that the owner of Jimmy's Grill or his son, made a statement that he pulls in $80,000 dollars in revenue alone from his outdoor patio on weekends in the warm weather months. I heard it from many reputable sources and it was actually made in Council Chambers. So contrary to what bloggers are saying most downtown businesses are very healthy and reaping WINDFALL PROFITS.

It is high time they pay for their own parking. Residents need to wake up and smell the coffee. It is really a shame that the Napergate Man as you all call him is not running those Napergate ads to educate us taxpayers how we are being scr*wed every which way possible by our City Officials. Our City Officials are clueless in their decision making.

I was fortunate enough to have dozens of conversation with the Napergate Man in the 1980s and early 90s in his little liquor store on Bailey Rd. named Extra Value Liquors. I learned much from him how our city operates. I am not surprised most of you are trusting his decision. You don't have to trust his decision blindly. He has the knowledge and expertise to back anything he says or tells to a friend.

Now that I have given you this information, I hope you all confront your city officials at the next city council meeting. It is not that hard. You just need numbers of people and for each speaker to speak for the entire 3 minutes until you wear your City Council Members down. Bring a 100 speakers and let each one speak for the whole 3 minutes....not part of them! Let the Mayor finally order him to sit down after he asked for an additional 30 seconds! That's at least 5 hours of speakers. Another hour will disappear between speakers. The City Council needs a 15 minute break. They also need 3 additional hours to discuss other issues on the agenda.

If you add all this up, you will get 9 hours and 15 minutes assuming no speaker was allowed to go overtime. Another 50 minutes if each is allowed the extra 30 seconds our kind Mayor Pradel allows. That give us 10 hours and 5 minutes. If the City Council meeting starts at 7pm it will be over at 5:05am. That would be the strategy of the Napergate Man. Wear them down and teach them to do research before they make decisions. If they don't do their research force them to stay up till 5:05 am until they start dozing off at each meeting. Eventually if you wear them down enough, deprive them of sleep, they will finally make the right decision so they can go home.

It is really that simple! If the residents of Naperville can no longer mobilize a hundred speakers, that means they lost interest of their town and surrendered to a few incompetent city officials loyal to the Brestal Law Firm.

I read all the blogs before I posted. This quotation from Ted's post form a Sun Reporter really caught my eye and devastated me.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

A handful of opponents, many of whom have spoken out previously against the location of the deck, came forward again to make their voices heard. This time they called on the Plan Commission's recent denial of the ordinances to help bolster their case.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


This is what our problem is. A handful of supporters were willing to show up. That means 5. The Napergate Man is not the solution. The people are! All he did is motivate you to show up and you showed up and made a huge difference. As I was writing this letter I noticed 37 bloggers have posted. The Internet Age has ruined us. We are willing to post all day and night but not attend City Council Meetings. In the Napergate Era under the Napergate Man we were smart enough to know we had to attend these meetings and yell at them if necessary.

Do you bloggers really think these council members who can not make a decision as simple as the library parking deck, can actually find this thread site by navigating the internet. I highly doubt it!

So our message is not getting to them as they lack the intelligence to even navigate the internet. The Napergate Man taught us over and over again we must attend these meetings and speak. Yell, if necessary! But only if they start it! He did once yell at Mr.Brestal after Brestal started up with the Napergate Man, outside of Chambers and it seems that is well known as hundreds of residents were taking a break during a City Council meeting at the time and witnessed the exchange. There was no touching and no one was arrested!

The above quote from the Sun is even more disturbing if you recall a few weeks ago the hard working Mr. Randall was only able to drag 5 bloggers with him to the Ponds of Hobson West council meeting.

May I suggest Mr. Host Ted since your bloggers are addicted to blogging to shut down your sites from 7pm of the 1st and 3rd Tuesday of each month and until the City Council meeting ends.

Maybe if bloggers could not blog, they will return to making a difference by attending our City Council meetings once again and resume pressuring the City Council Members as the Napergate Man taught us well for over a decade. We simply forgot the lessons the Napergate Man taught us. We don't need the Napergate Man to come out of retirement. We just need to remember the lessons he taught us and execute what we learned from him. Only then will we be successful in regaining control back of our City Council from this Brestal Law Firm that has wreaked havoc on our town since the Napergate Man retired. Thank you!

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PS. Special thanks to our Host Ted for allowing us to encourage our fellow citizens to take action. I do believe in due time Ted's thread will be the equivalent of those powerful Napergate Ads that inspired to be so active in the Napergate Era in standing up to City Hall. Keep up the great work Ted and keep building your thread up as you have been. Hopefully it will replace Napergate as our new launching pad to City Hall!

PSII I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR FROM ANYONE AS TO WHAT THE TOTAL ACTUAL SQUARE FOOTAGE OF RETAIL SPACE IS IN DOWNTOWN NAPERVILLE. IS. I USED NUMBERS BASED ON PURE INSTINCT AND OBSERVATION. I COULD EASILY BE OFF BY 100% EITHER WAY.

PSIII I ALSO WOULD LOVE TO HEAR FROM ANYONE WHO KNOWS THE COST OF ALL THESE GARAGES. I BELIEVE THERE ARE 5 NOT INCLUDING CITY HALL'S GARAGE. TWO IN EXISTENCE AND 3 PROPOSED.

If you could get me the exact numbers, I would be happy to do the computations for you to see how badly us taxpayers are subsidizing very profitable businesses in the downtown area.

I am totally against paying a single red cent towards subsidizintg these parking garages.

To previous blogger Sam, let us not lose hope!

I believe the Napergate Man and his followers were able to reverse the Spring Green Vote not once but 3 times!

That is why Spring Green/Gate has become the rallying cry and the meausuring rod for our expectations in Naperville!

It has also been done before by the Napergate Man. He reversed a decison against ATT from 7-0 back to 0-7 when our nutty council members in 1993 decided to give the City Phone Contract to MCI despite ATT providing 7600 jobs to our City. Our council members have been historically as dumb as they can come. At that time we only paid them an annual salary of 5000 dollars per year and we got what we paid for....nothing!

I recall the Napergate Man and his ATT supporters were ready to launch an electronic attack on the City of Naperville by tying up all city lines unless the city succumbed. The city eventually succumbed to the massive pressure brought forward by Mr. Napergate and his tactics! The Napergate Man ran many Napergate Ads to support the ATT employees and they also filled up the chambers that night just like the great Spring Green folks. I worked for ATT at the time and joined the parade to the City Council. The Napergate Man did help us full the chambers that night to the point they were overflowing with ATT employees. I have to say we had a lot of fun that evening. That Napergate Man knew how to turn screws right into our City Council Members heads until they screamed for their Mommy's to come help them. Kid you not!

I believe I said before that it wouldn't surprise me if the main motivation behind building the parking deck happened to be cash stuffed envelopes. I really can't come to any other logical conclusion as to why the council is so adamant about building this garage. No I don't have any evidence behind that, it's just what my gut tells me. What other motivation could there possibly be? The council's job is to represent the residents, is it not? When was the last council meeting where a resident stood up in support of the parking garage? It seems like every meeting I go to or watch online almost always has at least one person who went felt so strong about the issue they decided to take time out of their day to come to a council meeting to try to talk some sense in to them.

Let's look at the facts:

-Has ANYONE here ever been unable to find a parking spot in downtown Naperville? Granted, you might find yourself circling for a few minutes waiting for something to open up during prime time on a Friday or Saturday night... but have you EVER just decided to go somewhere else because you were literally unable to park?

-If they're building the parking deck as a preventative measure to allow for future parking when more businesses move in, where are these businesses going to go? If anyone hasn't noticed, what we consider "downtown" Naperville is land locked by residential housing and parks. The only major construction I can think of is the Water Street buildings, and they're building their own garage! Are there other future downtown Naperville sites I'm not aware of which are going to result in an explosion of traffic and parking requirements?

Kathleen, from your post earlier-

"I think you are a little off with your plan. A parking deck at the train station would not be able to serve the dual purpose you are noting. That parking deck would be much too far of a walk to downtown especially in the winter."
I guess you and I have different definitions of what is and isn't walkable. From the Metra lot to downtown Naperville is about a half mile walk. There's always cabs in the downtown area and at the train station if that is unbearable, and maybe the city could even put that stupid Naperville trolly to good use to serve as a shuttle during the peak hours.

Either way, I don't know about it being "too far", when was the last time (without being incredibly lucky with street parking) you were able to park within a half mile of your destination for free when you went to Chicago? Besides, in my plan, this garage would serve more to alleviate the Metra parking problem and overflow parking for downtown Naperville. Obviously not the first place you would park your car, but if you find yourself downtown at 6:30 on a Friday and are tired of circling the garages you could just park there and walk a little farther.

The main benefit of building a dual-purpose garage is instead of tax payers footing the bill, Metra commuters who have been on year long waiting lists would be OVERJOYED to pay for parking. Don't believe me? Go to the downtown Naperville station during rush hour and ask any person chaining their bike up if given the opportunity they would pay double or even triple the current parking pass cost to not have to ride their bike in this weather.

On a day like today, when it was -2 degrees out at 7:30 AM, do you really think you would find anyone who would say NO to that?

So let's see... Build a parking deck chopping down trees which are hundreds of years old, creating a massive disturbance to the library, potentially destroying some of the Riverwalk, AND costing tax payers millions of dollars OR build a parking deck where it is sorely needed, and have it paid for either entirely or almost entirely by commuters desperate for parking. Sure it might be a little too far to walk without a coat in high heels to the downtown Naperville bars in the winter, but how many centuries of free shuttle service from the heart of downtown to the Metra station garage could the millions of dollars the library parking garage was going to cost buy?

I think it's too late to debate the deck -- the council voted for it and has repeatedly defended its decision.

That said, I am very afraid that the special tax to pay for it will not be approved and the cost will be added to our real estate tax bills.

This is what happened at Van Buren, as I recall. The merchants supported the concept. They agreed to pay the majority of the costs. The council approved the deck. The merchants decided that the deck benefited the entire city, not just the downtown. The council agreed and the funding method was changed so that more of the cost was borne by the taxpayers via property tax. As a final gift to the merchants, the city council excused them from paying the first annual payment -- it came from city "surplus" instead.

I am tired of having my property taxes used for the benefit of private businesses in the downtown. Councilman Krause pointed out, at a hearing for a new restaurant in downtown, that the builder was providing zero parking spaces and that it seemed unfair. Staff disagreed, stating that the owner was making a payment in kind instead of providing spaces. If that payment was high enough, we wouldn't need the special taxes -- Obviously, the in kind payments are not high enough. If they were, we wouldn't need this special tax.

Residential taxpayers are going to pay for this, too. Count on it. It's too easy to bill the residential taxpayers.

I still am not sure where the extra cars are going to come from to fill up this garage. I've never had a problem finding a parking spot, even on busy Friday nights. If the Chicago Ave garage is full I head over to the Van Buren garage and always find something there. It might take ten minutes to find a spot during peak hours, but is that worth spending millions of dollars and goofing up the library?

Can't you also park at City Hall after hours as well? Does ANYONE ever park there? This whole fiasco is really starting to make me wonder if someone on the council isn't going to be on the receiving end of a cash stuffed envelope from whatever contractor is responsible for the construction of the new garage.

But since the garage is being built, I agree with everyone saying local businesses should finance it. If I open a business on the outskirts of Naperville, can I depend on the city and residents of Naperville to whip me up a posh parking lot... or would providing parking for my customers be my responsibility as a business owner? The double standard the city has for the downtown area is getting expensive.

Posted by: Eli Hodapp | January 28, 2008 11:15 AM

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Ted,
I was speaking from memory but I found this post from Eli. It can be found on the thread of Parking Structures that you put up last month. As you can see your bloggers do read your threads religiously. I hope this enhances my credibility just a touch with you, Ted!

McFarland

PS. I am not a Napergatian but I respect and support them as they seem to care and love Naperville much more than Brestal and Friends!

Note from Ted:

I'm not questioning your credibility, but alleging bribes is a serious matter, and in response to your question asking Eli for names I wanted to point out that Eli never actually said anyone was taking bribes.

What makes the Taxpayers of the City of Naperville feel that they have a right to question the City Council and the decisions made regarding the design and future of the Downtown Area. There is a direct need for hundreds of parking spaces and high rise decks are the only answer. As for the businesses operating in the Downtown area, you can either adapt or go out of business. The only answer is more parking, more bars and lounges. There are alot of friends of the Council that will benefit by there leadership. So if you are the typical ignorant Taxpayer such as I am, do not question what is best for you and the City. THEY KNOW BEST HOW TO SPEND YOUR MONEY.

Like everyone else I am against this parking deck at the library.

We really don't need it. We heard from so many including the Napergate Man and his friend Bob, Eli, Melissa, and numerous people that I can not name or remember, that they don't have trouble finding parking in downtown Naperville even on a Friday or Saturday.

I usually don't go downtown on weekends but I do go on weekdays and there is plenty of street parking. I recall Bob stating that he and the Napergate Man never had to use the parking garages even once. They always find street parking. Eli, who lives downtown, has always found a parking spot in less than 10 minutes. If we don't want to believe the Napergate Man and his buddy, do we not believe Eli who has always been credible on these blogs. And since he lives downtown, if anything he would want parking at taxpayer expense for himself. He does not want it, because he truthfully knows it is simply not needed.

Now we need to investigate Eli's allegation of envelopes stuffed with cash being passed around. Who passed these envelopes, Eli?
I believe you but you need to back up what you say like the Napegate Man always did in his Napergate ads so we can have the evidence to take to City Hall and confront our council members. Without solid evidence there is no confrontation! That is the difference between us and the Napergate Man. He always had the evidence from somewhere before he went to the City Council to obtain his numerous and historic reversals.

Note from Ted:

McFarland, Go back and re-read what Eli wrote about envelopes. He doesn't say what you think.

I worked with the Napergate Man during all those subdivsion wars in the 90s and early 2000s. I can say one thing about this guy; he would never mislead us.

I can assure you that no one can pass him an ENVELOPE stuffed with anything to change his mind. Unlike some of our council members who accept favors from this infamous Brestal Law Firm, Mr. Napergate is one person who can never be influenced with money or favors to go against the best interests of the taxpayers and residents of Naperville.

During our subdivision wars, I recall him asking hundreds of questions at meetings as he wanted to know every little detail before he put his reputation on the line for us.

Since he is putting his reputation on the line regarding this library, I am sure he vetted it out every which way possible before he came to the conclusion that it was a bad decision.

I can assure you this man does not have an ego. He does not attempt to reverse every City Council decisions for no reason. Only the few that are atriously wrong. That is why his success rate is so high. He only takes on developments projects that make no sense! Development projects that were made that have no practicality due to such things as conflicts of interest and influence.

He must have seen something awful wrong with library project to speak out for the first time in nearly 7 years. He obviously has much better things to do than fight our city council members day and night. But this time he was a little upset and spoke up. I am glad we finally heard from him albeit it was indirectly from his friends and neighbors.

So I am going with him and all the other bloggers who obviously feel a fatal error was made here. I hope we can get our first reversal post-Napergate Era.

And Ted thanks for allowing us to express our opinions freely on your blgs.

PS. I am also glad the Napergate Man is still living in Naperville and not retired in Arizona as has been widely rumored on these blogs a month or so ago!

Herbert,

This is probably what Ted was refering to:


July 17, 2007
Item N1.
DF makes the motion to set it in motion again with approving rezoning of the area, conditional use and PUD for a parking deck. Motion carries with DF visting AYE.

(That's now 2 times FOR the parking deck for DF, solidifying the position I posted from him back in 2006)

Nays on that vote (7/17/2007): Krause, Senger and Fiesler.


Because of this (2 times for the deck, 0 times against it), I still say DF is not the one to stop it and won't stop it. What's the status of his lawsuit against the city?

Ted,

It seems like you gave the Napergatians a new forum to express their opinions to replace those Napergate Ads.

I think you are doing a disservice to our community and would like to see you close down your entire blogs and return to reporting the news in the print newspaper.

Your threads have been a disaster. All they have done is reignite the 3500 Napergatians that have been sleeping.

Give me one good reason how waking them up has helped our town?

They are against everything our wonderful council members do.

The Napergatians are nothing but trouble makers and you are catering to them and encouraging them!

This battle for the library reminds me so much of Spring Green.

In both cases they are trying to build a commerical building in a residential area.

The only difference is the Napergate Man lived in Pembroke Commons and he had the power to rally the troops and stop the Council on that disastrous decision.

In this case as in the Ponds of Hobson West there seems to be no leadership or organization to fight City Hall. Unless residents start finding their own Napergate Men the city council will destroy our beautiful town. It is really so sad that people like the Napergate Man and activist Donna Rogers worked so hard for the beautification of Naperville and our City Council works for the sole purpose of putting a smile on Brestal's face.

I have to laugh out loud when I hear our city officials patting themselves on the back because Naperville came in 2nd most beautiful town in America.

Sorry council members but the credit goes to great citizens like Donna Rogers and the Napergate Man who devoted the better part of decade trying keep Brestal from destroying our town. Brestal appears to have re-energized himself to battle again with the retirement of the Napergate Man. We need to re-energize and stop him!

I am going with Cindy, Melissa, Realtor Ryan and the Napergate Man on this one. It really seems like an obvious decison.

But how could our council screw up such an obvious decison! No library deck please!!!

I have to go with my fellow Napergatians on this one. It really seems like a no brainer!

Our council can't even make the right decision on a no brainer!

But in the end it is our fault for electing them. We have to be more diligent in the next elections and know who we are voting for!

I want to add my voice to all those opposed to the library deck.

I do not feel I have to elaborate as all the bloggers and Ted did a great job pointing out the utter stupidity of the council decision.

As one blogger said our council members were drinking in executive chambers before making this dumb decision. They never fail to surprise us!

Absolutely against the library parking deck!

Just an absolutely insane decision by our council!

Someone misled them and they took the bait.

9.I think you're feeling sorry for the downtown restaurants is not justified, Ted. Other restaurants in shopping centers have to pay something called CAM(Common Area Maintenance) for their parking lots provided by their landlords. This CAM can range anywhere from $2.00 to $4.00 a square foot per year. So restaurants in plazas that are between 5000s.f. to 10,000s.f. pay between $10,000 to $40,000 dollars for use of their parking lots. This includes maintenance such as parking lot repairs, snow plowing, daily cleaning, lighting, seal coating , striping, etc. When a new parking lot is needed the humongous cost is passed on to the tenants and can be between $5-10 a square foot to replace. This occurs once every 20 years and is a one time expense of $25,000 to $100,000 per restaurant mostly depending on size of restaurant and quality of the plaza. As a commercial realtor I can tell you, it is very obvious that the downtown restaurants and bar owners are being subsidized at taxpayers expense. This is very unfair and in my opinion none of the existing council members can comprehend the factual knowledge I am offering. (I have verified that the Napergate Man does in fact own a commercial retail center in Naperville so I am sure this knowledge entered into his decision before making it. I am sure he would comprehend what I am talking about very easily unlike our council members who depend on the very biased Brestal for all their information)

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This above quote from Realtor Ryan convinced me that this parking we are building for the downtown restaurants is a subsidy paid by the taxpayers and not the restauarnts or their patrons.

Ryan made so much sense. Please read his post. I did not want to repost the whole post because it is too long. But it is right on the money. He knows what he is talking about. No doubt!

I am with the Napergate Man and the unamimous opinion of all bloggers so far that building a deck on this library site is disastrous.

It shows you how incompetant our City Council can be when someone like the Napergate Man is not watching them.

I urge the Naperville Sun to start keeping an eye on our city council. They do not think! They go with Brestal if he pressures them. In the old days when the Napergate Man pressured them a little more they went with him.

Absolutely no brain power on this council!

You have two unofficial council members and 9 official but useless council members.

It just seems the only 2 real council members we have in this town are the Napergate Man and the Brestal Man. The other 9 just react to pressure! No logical thinking or common sense! Very sad!

Eli,
I think you are a little off with your plan. A parking deck at the train station would not be able to serve the dual purpose you are noting.

That parking deck would be much too far of a walk to downtown especially in the winter.

I just don't see why we can't build the 2 decks we are building one or two stories higher. In Chicago they build them 12 and 15 stories high. Land is expensive, so we need to build higher!

I am going to make a guess and say if the Napergate Man was around he would just say build one parking deck high enough to accomodate all the parking and spare us the other two.

If you are concerned about height. Forget about that issue! Look it how high the city officials led Edward's Hospital go up. I can't even count the stories when I drive by as there are so many. Over 9 stories I believe!

So that is my solution one deck and build it high. The Van Buren Deck is the one I would recommend to build as high as necessary to accomodate all parking. What is wrong with having one skysraper in downtown Naperville? If built properly it actually may look pretty at that location.

But please leave that library alone. I am sure the Napergate Man knows what he is talking about as he has proved himself over and over again to be right on all issues he has taken sides on!

Joe,
I think you are wrong and DF is the only hope to stop this.
Here is why! If you have been following Ted's threads for the last few months you need a guy from the winning side to bring an issue back up for debate and a new vote. A guy from the losing side of a vote can't do anything!

If you think about it he is the most likely guy to flip and agree to reopen this library debate and put it to a new vote.

It is apparent that the Napergatians are against this library almost unanimously. Who put DF in office? They did! So I would think they have a chance of getting him to change his mind. A much better chance than any other conservative members of our current council.

It appears you disagree with Ted who said there were 3 council members who voted against the library and not just one. Them being Councilmen Doug Krause and Bob Fieseler and Councilwoman Darlene Senger. I am going with Ted as being more credible than you Joe. as he is the Host and knows what is going on in our town plus has old articles to his disposal. He is usually right and very credible!

Even though both Doug Krasue and Darlene Senger were endorsed by the Napergate Man, they can not help here becasue they are on the losing side. Of course Bob Fieseler, a non-Napertagian can't help either as he is also on the losting side.

Thus you have some establishment council members who will not change under any circumstance and a wishy washy guy named Dick Furstenau who blows with the flying money blowing in the wind. He goes with which ever direction the money is blowing.

So I think you are wrong, Joe! DF is actually the only HOPE to get this library back on agenda so we can get a reversal. It would be nice if the Napergate Man would give him a call and discuss LOYALTY with him! He needs to be reminded he needs to be loyal to his constituents, voters and those Napergate Ads that placed him in office. We all saw how bad he failed in the state elections without the Napergate Man's help or endorsement. And he tries to blame it on an incidents of touching or not touching with a cop. Just seems ridiculous he can't let the puck stop at him for his failure in the state election.

I think people saw his lack of loyalty to the agenda of the Napergatians and they dumped him in the State Elections. That is only my personal opinion.

I hope he can redeem himself with the Napergatians by coming thru on the libraray. Of course I am against this deck like all others who have posted. It would so distasteful in the middle of a residential neighborhood.

Count me in as one more voice against the Nichols Parking Deck.

What bothers me is the idea that the deck would prevent growth of the library, which ostensibly would be addressed by building yet another library building on the north side. That would be an expensive mistake.

I've lived here over 15 years. My experience since the Naper Blvd and 95th Street libraries were built is that most items I'm looking for are completely checked out at Nichols but available at the other two libraries; often ALL copies are available. That means the library has a redundancy of materials but that the popularity of the Nichols library still far exceeds that of the other two. Building another library would be wasteful and, has been shown twice before, ineffective at reducing Nichols’ traffic. People like going downtown – and the library can be part of a days outing.

I’ll also add that often, when it appears there are not open spaces around Nichols, I’ll pull into the Community Center lot, just across the street, to find it practically, even completely, empty.

Therefore, building a parking deck at the Nichols library is unnecessary and a flat out mistake.

Joe,
You know what is so ironic about this Dick Furestneau council member and his new pro-establishment postions....Let me tell you.

The Napergate Man pumped him up real good in 1995 but could not get him elected despite giving him his highest rating which I recall was a 9 out 10 in his numerous Napergate ads. He pumped him up again in Napergate ad after Napergate ad in 1999 and finally got him elected.

And what does Dick Furstenau do! He betrays the Napergate Man and takes $2000 dollars from the Brestal Law Firm something the Napergate Man preached against.

So now we have John Rosanova and Dick Fursteanu betraying the Napergate Man who pumped ten of thousands of dollars in his ads to help get them elected.

I think I finally understand why the Napergate Man retired. He must have felt he was fighting a losing battle as he would work hard to elect these candidates who he must have thought were good people, and as soon as they are in office, they betray him, stab him in the back and start taking dough or favors for relatives from this Brestal Character.

I really feel he tried to help our town and we let him down. No wonder he is walking his dog Abby and not worrying about us anymore. He just gave up on us! Can anyone blame him???

Rachael,

http://www.naperville.il.us/emplibrary/ccm032206.pdf

March 22, 2006.


Item K5 Consideration of reconstructing the Central Parking Facility in Advance of the Nichols Library Parking Deck.

...Furstenau moved to continue to endorse the library site as the first new parking structure in the downtown. Second, Boyajian.

The only NAY vote was from Krause.


Looks like DF isn't the man to stop this.

I asked the Sunday editor to look in the archive and she found many articles in The Sun related to council discussion of the Nichols parking deck including this one from July 19:

”Parking deck plans advancing”

Residents, you're one step closer to parking your car in a new downtown parking deck.

The City Council voted 6 to 3 at Tuesday's meeting to approve a grouping of ordinances related to construction of the Nichols Library parking deck. Councilmen Doug Krause and Bob Fieseler and
Councilwoman Darlene Senger voted against it.

Together the ordinances consolidate the three properties on the library block into one, rezone a corner of that block and approve a conditional use for the deck as a planned unit development.

The three-story parking deck would span the length of Jefferson Avenue from Eagle to Webster Street. A fourth floor would be underground. Three stories also would run along Eagle Street to Jackson Avenue. About 540 parking spaces would be available upon the garage's completion.

A handful of opponents, many of whom have spoken out previously against the location of the deck, came forward again to make their voices heard. This time they called on the Plan Commission's recent denial of the ordinances to help bolster their case.

Susan McNeal-Bulak implored the council to move forward with other parking projects, such as those in conjunction with the Water Street redevelopment or the addition to the Van Buren parking deck.

"You probably never want to see or hear about the Nichols Library parking deck again," McNeal-Bulak said. "But we urge you to step back."

Christopher DeVane, an ardent opponent of the deck, said the garagecould "quite possibly be the most unpopular civic project in Naperville history."

However, resident Thomas Harris called the deck a compromise, and something rather than nothing needs to be done.

"While this isn't the best solution, it is a solution," Harris said. "Some of us who drive to downtown Naperville see the need for the parking deck."

Councilman John Rosanova said while it's true the deck might be a controversial issue, when the Municipal Center was being constructed at its current location, it drew an earful of criticism as well.

"This is the best option," he said. "People will be able to park in the deck and not have to walk outside to get to the library. What kind of statement does that make about a city and its reverence for libraries? I'd say a pretty solid one."

City Finance Director Doug Krieger said an outline of future funding options for all the downtown parking projects will come before th ecouncil in late August.

"70 percent of the 42 downtown businesses must agree to collect that money," Krause said. "If we don't get 70 percent, where are were going to get the money?"

The deck now stands to cost $16.5 million, up a few million dollars from previous costs because of delays in construction.

Contact Kate Houlihan at khoulihan@scn1.com or 630-416-5224.

Betting against the Napergate Man is like going to Las Vegas and trying to beat Casino odds! It ain't happening!

I am not betting against this guy. He has won all his cases in court and before the city council.

And based on my limited knowledge about the library it does seem very unfitting to put a parking deck that would block the view of that gorgeous atmosphere in that part of aresidential neighborhood.

It is hard to miss that very large tree that the Napergate Man mentioned to one of his friends. I am also against killing trees especially century old trees.

And I hope Ted lets us know Monday who voted for that ugly deck to be put on top of a library or next to it.

If our city officials had half a brain they would have demanded that that Promenade Building with Hugo's would have had 2 undergroud parking levels for vehicles to park.

But Brestal got them off the hook for having to come up with their own parking and us taxpayers have to pay for THEIR parking costs! How unfair!

Is anyone still wondering why the Napergate Man was always calling Brestal out in his Napergate ads. He knew something 15 years ago and we are just finding out about it now!

How unjust how these City Council members operate! They do not watch out for us taxpayers like the Napergate Man use to.

They only watch out for Brestal's wallet hoping he will reciprocate somehow someday. We all saw how he gave Rosanova's son a job in his law firm. If that does not tell the taxpayers something nothing will!

Does anyone for a second believe when the Napergate Man was running those full page Napergate Ads that Brestal would have dared hire a City Council Member's Son? Not a chance in a million!

I am just going with all the bloggers above and the Napergate Man.
There seems to be no debate on this issue.
It appears city officials did what Eli said. I won't repeat what he said. Look it up!
I especially agree with Ryan and Melissa who both made much sense!

I like your post Melissa!

I hope Ted can get us the names of the Council Members who voted for and against this insane deck!

I think we learned from the Ponds and Spring Green we need to get one Council Member who voted "for" to reopen the issue in a Council Meeting.

And then we have to try to obtain a REVERSAL. We just can not be paralyzed forever just because the Napergate Man retired. He was notorious for these reversals.

We just have to find a way to proceed without him instead of yearning for him daily and never getting anything accomplished.

I think he spoiled us by doing all the work for us for a whole decade. It is time us bloggers got off our butts and go to City Council and do what he did time and time again.

Hopefully, these blogs will get powerful and have thousands of readers so we can use them to fill City Chambers like the Napergate Man filled them with his Napergate ads that called residents into action over and over again obtaining reversal after reversal!

We are lacking action and I hope a new leader surfaces soon.

I wish Dick Furstenau would lead us like the Napergate Man did.
I understand the Napergate Man was involved in tons of litigation while running those Napergate ads and leading us.

DF only has a baby case compared to the Napergate Man's numerous cases. He needs to lead us just like he led us to reduce our Water Bill by millions of dollars. That was awesome what he did and I give him credit.

This is a call to Mr. Furstenau for help. Please help us stop this library deck. Please blog with us and tell us what we need to do!

Also please tell us how you voted on this deck! I hope you voted no but I missed this story in the Sun. It most have not been on Page 1 or prevalent like those subheadings in those Napergate ads that stuck out like sore thumbs and not one seemed to have ever missed!

Ted,
This Ryan guy makes the most sense out of anyone so far. Even more than Eli and Cindy.

Obviously, as a commercial realtor he gave us the insight we were lacking as to how plaza restaurants pay for parking compared to downtown restaurants pay for parking.

And since the Napergate does own a plaza I am familiar with and it does contain restaurant(s) he obviously understands how things operate. More so than most of us who don't have the insights of Realtor Ryan or the Napergate Man.

{This is a very small world. As you recall I was investigating the Ponds of Hobson West where my dentist Dr. Soper lived. Yesterday, a friend told me that Dr. Soper rented retail space from the Napergate Man in a plaza he owns for a quarter of a century and had a very close relationship with him. While I was familiar with this plaza, I never knew the Napergate Man owned it until yesterday. As I said this is a small world we live in!}

Back to the current subject: I think Ryan asked a question that I think many of us would like answered if possible.

That question is how did the council vote on this library vote. Who voted for it and who voted against it by name if possible? I subscribe to the Naperville Sun and never caught anything about this vote. Did not even know it was being voted on?

In the Napergate Era we would have been warned by the Napergate Man in advance. No one would have missed such a meeting. And if they ruled the wrong way in his next ad he would tell us who ruled how and what we must do to overturn it.

I have to agree with so many that the Naperville Sun is not doing its duty. It is a shame that we had to depend on one guy running Napergate Ads in the Sun for this function. Of course he had to retire sooner or later. So did Dr. Soper after 40 years and I had to find a new dentist. I found a new dentist. But us residents have not found a new watchdog since the Napergate Man retired. This is very disturbing and killng our town. It seems like we are heading to a concrete and cement town especially if we lose this library to a Huge Parking Deck!

This function should have never been delegated by the Naperville Sun to one person. Now we are all hanging because of this. None of us know how the City Council pulled this library stunt on us. Can anyone in the Naperville Sun let us know how it happened so we could be educated? Obviously there is no longer a Napergate Man to educate us. He must have spent hours digging all this information up, writing about it and publishing it!

But someone has to take over what he did for the community! He has been retired for over 6 years and no citizen has stepped forward to replace him. I don't expect any citizens to step forward as none of the surrounding suburbs ever had anything similar to this Napergate Man. Or even, most likely, no other city in the entire country ever had a man that was willing to spend so much money to be a Watch Dog for his community when the local and regional newspapers were failing them. We were just lucky in the Napergate Era that we had such a person. But now we don't have him and must find a way to move forward without him!

It just seems reading all these Sun threads the past few months, he left a massive void and residents are frustrated by the void he left. Additional frustration is developing as a result of the unwillingness of the Naperville Sun to step up to the plate and fill his big shoes.

I agree with all 14 bloggers and especially Realtor Ryan and the Napergate Man that this parking deck is costly, not needed, an eyesore, and destroys the beautiful serene setting of this library on a beautiful river and Riverwalk. I respectfully disagree with Ted that a parking deck should only be built there as a last resort. I say not that location. Never as another blogger stated!

AGAIN TED, PLEASE TELL US HOW THE COUNCIL VOTED ON THIS ONE. I NEED TO KNOW SO NEXT TIME I KNOW WHO TO VOTE IN AND WHO TO VOTE OUT DURING MUNICIPAL ELECTIONS!!!

Last time, you got us an answer on the Ponds of West Hobson after the thread was archived and I don't think anyone saw it. As you know I was trying to help on that situation but I did not have any ammunition to work with. It also did not help that Mr. Randall only had 5-10 supporters willing to go to the City Council on a good cause. A far cry from those Napergate Days when residents ended up in hallways due to lack of capacity in Chambers as occurred in the final Spring Green Battle.

I personally visited the Ponds of Hobson West possibly trespassing as some blogger noted. But I think that cause is lost, and want to see if we can mobilize on this library cause that the Napergate Man is saying must be addressed!

I would like to try to work on this cause. I think it is a good cause not just because the Napergate Man said it was a good cause. I think neighboring residents must be outraged their homes will be dwarfed by a huge parking lot. How could the city have not thought about these residents and the impact on their home? This also reminds me of Spring Green in that we are throwing a Commercial Use in a quiet residential neighborhood.

Anyway I am going to end this letter and go visit the library as the Napergate Man most likely did before talking. I think the power of diligent observation is crucial to understanding any issue. No one can accuse me of trespassing this time as it is a public library owned by the taxpayers. So at least I have a better chance of investigating without getting arrested by the Naperville Police! Thank God! I don't want to join the Napergate Man in that distinction. Plus like Ameena I don't have much money to fight in the court system and would probably have to plead guilty whether I was innocent or guilty!

And Ted I want to tell you I am very grateful that you created these blogs to allow us to debate, vet and influence decisions. I do suspect this thread will be a very important and successful thread after the Napergate Man tipped his friends who then tipped the bloggers of this wrongful decision made by our city council!

Note from Ted:

The library deck issue was reported extensively by The Sun. I recall we ran a front-page illustration before the vote. I don't remember the vote, and I don't have access to archive right now to look it up.

I was able to find this editorial by searching the 30-day archive on our Web site:

Council smart to take a look at postponing new deck

January 23, 2008

THE ISSUE: The City Council is looking for capital improvement projects it can postpone or even cancel.

OUR VIEW: The Nichols Library deck might be one that could be scaled down or not needed after other planned decks are built.

The Naperville City Council is doing what it must as it looks to postponing or even cancelling various items from its capital improvement program.

Critically, some $51.4 million worth of projects in the plan are currently unfunded.

With the economy in its current state of flux, the council is wise to consider that city revenue - especially in such areas as sales tax and real estate transfer tax - will probably not be as robust as the city would like it to be.

And while the city must keep up with growth and resident expectations in its capital improvements, taking a look at projects with an eye toward seeing if they are truly necessary or at the least can be put off for a year or two is a wise course.

One expensive project that the city staff and council are looking to push off for a year is construction of the Nichols Library parking deck.

With the Water Street deck and the Van Buren deck addition to be built in the next couple of years, the city staff considers that deck can be postponed from 2009 to 2010.

As for proposed changes to the Central Parking Facility, the one between Chicago and Jefferson avenues, these have been proposed for 2011-12 and the council may push that out another year or, at the suggestion of Councilman Richard Furstenau, not even keep it in the plan at all, at least for the time being.

As much as we consider downtown parking to be vital, we would note that the deck that is the most controversial with residents is that to be built at the library.

Many folks consider that it will be detrimental to the appearance of that area and that it is too close to residences.

Perhaps the city would be wise to postpone the library deck until both the Van Buren and Water Street projects are done and even the Central Parking Facility revamped and then see what the need is before the library deck is built. Maybe by that time a smaller library deck or no deck at all will be deemed a better solution.

Update from Ted:

It took a while to search the archives because The Sun did SO MANY STORIES on the Nichols Library deck, but the Sunday editor finally managed to find the one with the vote, and it's published below. Sorry you missed all the articles Melissa, but The Sun did its job on this issue, giving residents plenty of notice about what was happening and when.

You all think the parking deck is going to be bad at the library (btw I agree), but wait till you see the one that gets built on Water Street as part of that development. Council agreed to narrow the street 9' so they could get 100 more spaces. Huge, dense development, denser than anything that has been built in Naperville, with hardly any green space, actually none, if you remove what's left of the riverwalk..

We will have the narrowest street downtown on what will be the tallest, densest block. All of it will be 5 floors and it will be right on the riverwalk too from Main to Webster.

It will ruin the riverwalk, and all that traffic from a 550 car parking lot, narrow streets, no green space. Brilliant!

There is a big distinction here that that the blog narrative fails to make. The blog narrative states that implementing "a 1.5 percent downtown food and beverage tax that would generate revenue from property taxpayers."

This is incorrect and misleading. First this particular food and beverage tax would not be placed upon the "property owners." Secondly, the tax would be directly paid for by customers of these eateries.

Should the menu prices remain the same and assuming that this is revenue neutral related to the amount of food consumed by the patrons, there would not be a diminishment in the amount of profit made by the eateries. The tax is an extra charge.

Now, if the eateries paid the tax themselves (and not allowed to make it an add-on to the bill), then the eateries would need to increase their menu prices to recoup any such tax paid. And, then their profits could possibly be affected both by the increased expense directly to the eateries and if the patrons decide that prices were too high (menu prices) and then decided not to have a meal in downtown Naperville.

Of course, I am aware that the downtown eatery would pay a slightly higher property tax bill for the portion of the parking deck costs to be recovered by property tax. Compared with the additional property taxes inflicted upon all the properties outside downtown Naperville, the total amount of increased real estate tax paid by the downtown Naperville eateries would be rather small.

Unless the customer base becomes smaller for the eateries, the eateries are not being affected by this new food and beverage tax. So, where is the "burden" on the eateries? The patrons and the non-eatery property taxpayers get to pay for the majority of the costs of the parking deck.

Ted,
I just got back from visiting the library. I had to see what all this Napergate Man rave was about. Here are my conclusions:

1. Ted is right that it is not a gem on the North side of the building along Jefferson.

2. The Napergate Man is right that it is a beauty on the South side along Jackson and facing the river. Very breathtaking!

3. The Napergate Man is right about all those trees and one appears to be at least a century old in the parking lot. We would have to kill a few dozen pretty trees for this ugly library parking deck.

4. It does have a nice serene setting.

5. I noticed the City Hall parking lot is one block south of the library. Are people so lazy that they can't go one block south to park at City Hall? The walk is spectacular. You get to cross a beautiful bridge over the flowing river and get a peek at that American Hero's Memorial of Commander Dan Shanower that is behind City Hall.

6. I guess if we gave the North Side of the library a little face lift the Napergate Man would be 100% right.

7. The entrance on the North side is extremely appetizing which makes up for the bad architecture on the North side.

8. I think we need this extra 1.5% from the restaurants to pay for the other 2 garages and older garages.

9.I think you're feeling sorry for the downtown restaurants is not justified, Ted. Other restaurants in shopping centers have to pay something called CAM(Common Area Maintenance) for their parking lots provided by their landlords. This CAM can range anywhere from $2.00 to $4.00 a square foot per year. So restaurants in plazas that are between 5000s.f. to 10,000s.f. pay between $10,000 to $40,000 dollars for use of their parking lots. This includes maintenance such as parking lot repairs, snow plowing, daily cleaning, lighting, seal coating , striping, etc. When a new parking lot is needed the humongous cost is passed on to the tenants and can be between $5-10 a square foot to replace. This occurs once every 20 years and is a one time expense of $25,000 to $100,000 per restaurant mostly depending on size of restaurant and quality of the plaza. As a commercial realtor I can tell you, it is very obvious that the downtown restaurants and bar owners are being subsidized at taxpayers expense. This is very unfair and in my opinion none of the existing council members can comprehend the factual knowledge I am offering. (I have verified that the Napergate Man does in fact own a commercial retail center in Naperville so I am sure this knowledge entered into his decision before making it. I am sure he would comprehend what I am talking about very easily unlike our council members who depend on the very biased Brestal for all their information)

10.It is not fair to subsidize the downtown restaurants when the non-downtown restaurant are paying thru the roof for their parking lots. A downtown restaurant doing a half million dollars in retail sales is only paying $5,000 at the 1% tax to use our public taxpayer funded parking lots. Even at 2.5% tax rate, it would only be paying $12,500. This is in the low range of plaza restaurants. Plus it is much more expensive to build a parking lot garage than pave a lot on an acre or 2 of land. About 10 times as expensive! I can see why some Napergatian in an earlier post said to charge them 10%. I must admit these Napergatians seem to be very bright like their well known leader. He must have taught them will in the 90s while he was leading them in battle after battle to control the Brestal Law Firm.

In conclusion, I feel very strongly against this parking lot library. I see why everyone is supporting the Napergate Man. He has always been a logical common sense thinker. Our City Council Members have never thought in their lives. They rubber stamp this Brestal guy who does them favors such as hiring their children since the Napergate Man caught him giving them significant campaign contributions all published in his Napergate Ads. It appears by exposing these contributions, the Napergate Man was able to shame our council members and they no longer accept them as they were a serious conflict of interest.

I am sorry Ted but this parking lot should never be built at this location which is very residential as Cindy said. Never in any circumstance! That is where I vehemently disagree with you! There are other options if we truly needed more parking which we don't. We should build the other decks a story higher and save the library. If we need a 3rd deck there is a lot the city owns across from Hugo's and behind Lou Malnati called the Paw Paw Lot. Why not build there? It is on the right side of the line drawn in the sand between residential and commercial in that area.

It is so easy to understand why this Napergate Man developed a cult sort of followers. He is intelligent, does his research before he talks and historically has been proven right and led us in the right direction.

Can anyone really trust our City Council Members after they tried to put a gas station/shopping center between Pembroke Commons Subdivision and the pool at the Huntington Estates Subdivision on the residential side of Hobson Rd. I think this stupid, very stupid decision by the City Council was in fact stopped by the Napergate Man and his supporters. The City' stupidity over and over again has given this Napergate Man an ICONIC status of sorts. His supporters did not make him famous. Our dumb city council members made him famous! As Ted, I believe noted somewhere, on another thread their lack of credibility made it easy for the Napergate Man to systematically put holes in everything they said, in his long sequence of Napergate ads.

Heck no, to the library parking lot! All the way with the Napergate Man on this specific issue!

PS. Maybe if we offered a little more compensation for these council positions we could begin getting top of the barrel people instead of the current bottom of the barrel people. Can you tell me Ted, if any one of our council members voted against this library parking lot. If there was one I would like to vote him in for Mayor next time! I am hoping there was more than one so we can have some exceptions to what I said above.

I am a first time blogger and I want to congratulate TED for a well done job and the openness he provides on his threads to both side of the aisle. I have been reading these blogs for over 3 months but I felt it was to write on a very important issue like the library parking deck!
Thanks for allowing me to express my opinion on your thread, Ted!

I am not going against the Napergate Man after Ted allowed us to review and revisit this guy the last 3 months. Betting against him seems like a 100% sure loss.

I was indecisive but after I heard the Napergate Man is against this parking deck, I decided I am against it.

The arguments laid out by his worshippers make sense. He appears to have always been right in the past on all development projects.

Hi, folks. Lot of vitriol flying around lately. In an effort to return an air of civility to this board I junked about half the comments today, many from people who have posted previously. Let's try to confine the discussion to the topic of the thread, refrain from personal attacks and BE CIVIL.

"Brestal has always been concerned about his wallet."

"Bretal(sic) takes away from the residents.."

Actually, Brestal has given much to the residents of Naperville. Anyone who lives in a subdivision built in the last 30 years can thank Brestal for working to turn all the former farm land into your subdivision. I mean, you all had no problem with the former open space being turned into your new housing, right?

I support the Napergate Man's vision for the library as detailed perfectly by the first blogger Cindy. I am assuming she is a good friend of his to have been able to get that detail, but it does make a lot of sense what he is saying thru her.

But truthly this Napergate Man has always been concerned about the beauty of Naperville while Brestal has always been concerned about his wallet.

The Napergate Man gives to the residents...Bretal takes away from the residents..

Absolutely no library parking deck!

And I disagree with Ted.

This building is set beautifully to fit in the natural environment. Sorry Ted, but you have bad taste in architecture!

It sounds to me that if people want to stop construction of the Nichols deck they need to stop this downtown food and beverage tax from being approved. Because if the tax is approved and there's language in the ordinance that specifies the funds raised be used to build a parking deck, then a parking deck's going to be built. No point standing of front of the bulldozers. It's like 204's Metea Valley -- pointless now to debate whether a third high school is needed, the referendum was approved.

So, this sounds like a fairly easy one, people. All you have to do is convince 26 percent of the downtown restaurants to oppose it.

As for my opinion, I'm against spending money when it's not absolutely necessary. At this moment I don't think the Nichols deck is absolutely necessary. I'm not opposed for aesthetic reasons. It's not like the library is a historic building from the 1880s or anything. Building dates to 1986, I believe, and I've never been that smitten with its architecture. Inside it's fine, functional. But from the outside it's just a flat-roofed brick-and-glass walkout monolith built on a hillside. I'm not against the deck because it would be ugly; I'm against it because it's expensive.

I am not convinced we need more parking downtown. I've never NOT been able to find a space there. True, you sometimes have to look for a couple of minutes, but so what? If the city does go ahead with this, though, then the restaurant tax is the best way to pay for it, since the restaurants and their patrons will be the primary beneficiaries.

That said, can we PLEASE leave the Napergate Man out of this discussion for now? His opinion on this matter carries no more (or less) weight than that of anybody else. If he has an opinion, let him come here and post it himself.

Absolutely no to any deck on top or or next to the library!

Leave this spectacular view alone. This has to be the prettiest part of Naperville.

Do we not care about our rating of 2nd most beautiful city in America?

Are the council members clueless as to why we got that very high rating?

I guess it is becoming obvious that it is the Napergate Man that got us that 2nd place rating and not our City Officials who never think before voting on any development project! Always rubber stamping Brestal ever since the Napergate Man retired. So obvious!!! Let us not forget Spring Green and fight just as hard to save this magnificent library as we saved our subdivisions!

I agree with everyone who posted so far and the Napergate Man that we have to condemn this parking library deck.

It would be the ungliest thing Naperville has ever seen in its history.

Spare us please, City Council Members!

Please save this impeccably beautiful library.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I've been living in the downtown Naperville area for years now, and the only time I've ever been unable to find a parking spot in ten minutes of circling either of the three garages (Including the city hall parking, which is almost ALWAYS available.) is during the Flings. Instead of screwing up the library building a parking deck of questionable need, why not build a parking deck which serves two purposes at the Metra station?

Think about it. Prime time in downtown Naperville starts at around 7:00 at night, long after most of the Metra commuters have gone home for the day. Parking at the station is sorely needed. How long is the waiting list now for a pass? I know it's at least a year if not much more than that. During the day the garage could be used by commuters, and at night it could be overflow parking for downtown Naperville businesses.

This would be the ultimate win/win situation if the city is dead set on building another parking garage.

NO! NO! NO! NO! To a library parking deck!

Our City Officials must have been drinking the night of that fateful decison!

Their judgment was impaired worse than a drunk with a 4.0 on the Richter Scale!!!

I am totally against this library deck around our gorgeous library. As Eli said there had to be a bag stuffed with money that circled around City Hall to have this disaster approved.

This will be one meeting I will show up to get a REVERSAL!

I hope we can get our first reversal ever without the Napergate Man.

We have to at least try! This library is a treasure to our town and the most beautiful library in America.

The residents must have been sleeping when that fateful decision was made by our incompetent council members.

Some of the things they do make no sense.

They are returning to their pre-Napergate Era ways of utter stupidity.

I love this post Ted. I believe I suggested something along this line especially after the Napergate Man started planting seeds that is he totally against this library parking deck.

I am totally against this ugly deck over powering our library on the river.

I am hopefully that are we will see another reversal by our Council Members whether the Napergate Man resurfaces or does not.

Thanks Ted for giving us an avenue to vent our frustration against City Officials.

This is the next best thing to Napergate Ads and since we can't afford those we are going to have to live with your threads and hope our City Officials and Council read them!

Please drive the bus to City Hall just this one time, Ted!

And thanks so much for deleting that massacre thread

Ted,

Thanks for opening this debate about the library deck and its necessity. You are on the right side of this issue if you take it a little further and say you are AGAINST IT!

It is well know in town that the Napergate Man has told many friends and neighbors that he is against this library deck for the following reasons.

1.It destroys the beauty of the very serene setting of this library which includes large trees on one side and the Riverwalk on the other side.

2.There already is adequate parking and 2 additional decks already planned will give us more than enough parking.

3.This building is a masterpiece of architecture.

4.The library is in a residential area and should be the line in the sand for commercial encroachment west of the downtown areas.

5.It is also well know that this Napergate Man has historically had excellent vision for our town and has usually been right on issues of development.

If the Napergate Man is AGAINST it, I am AGAINST it!

I hope you are too, Host Ted!!!


Response from Ted:

My position is as I stated it: I'm for waiting until the other two decks are operational to see whether the Nichols deck is still needed. If there's still a critical downtown parking shortage two years from now, I might accept it.

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This page contains a single entry by Naperville Sun editors published on February 9, 2008 11:09 AM.

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