Anon, I answered mine on May 14th, using JQP's method, which I originally posted on April 25, and some Napergatian cried bunk about that method (then later, everyone calls it gospel.. fine, whatever).

Still haven't seen yours yet. When did you post yours?

_________________________________________________________________

Are you the regular Joe, the old Joe or the orginal Joe!

Just curious!

Anon, I answered mine on May 14th, using JQP's method, which I originally posted on April 25, and some Napergatian cried bunk about that method (then later, everyone calls it gospel.. fine, whatever).

Still haven't seen yours yet. When did you post yours?

Ken,
You amaze me. You are always speaking of this OT being reimbursed.

Yes, it is remimbursed from us tax payers thru a sham transaction. Thus there is no reimbursement from the charities.

It is a total sham.

You should be on the side of what is right and not what is wrong.

Stop being like Joe...No one likes him.

Why do you want to be disliked?

Be like Kevin and John Q Public. Everyone loves them because they think and rationalize.

Joe is stuck in stone. He is like the Niles Crocodiles. He will eat anything in his path. It is either his way or the highway. Reminds me of Saddam and we all know what happened to him when he would not bend...they broke his neck off.

Joe will never bend but watch him break! He has no flexibility. Never heard of negotiating or reason or practicality!

Change your idol, Ken!!! Please!!!

Joe,
What is your exact cost for police OT?

You never seem to answer questions....always evasive and elusive...

Is it .96 or 1.87?

Talk straight once in a while!

Again, please post your actual costs in taxes by category to show your $63 worth of police OT that is actually coming from your pocket.

Were some of this costs to you due to liquor licensing fees?

Gee, Anonymouse 2:50pm, that really hurts coming from someone who is afraid to post under any name. Yet another keyboard Rambo on the attack, showing your lack of knowledge.

The sham in your example is the tax, not the overtime issue. I said long ago that the cultural tax was wrong, but I guess you lack the ability to recall posts along with your lack of reading comprehension.

Joe and Ken,

You are identical twin sickos!

I hope Moderator Jim wills you his blogs.

He lost hundreds of bloggers because of you twin sickos!

Why don't you guys go golfing together one day and enjoy some sunshine!

I hope you guys don't plan on wasting this beautiful summer blogging away day and night as you did the fall,winter and spring!

Get some life into your existence! Volunteer at the Ribfest and Last Fling and maybe you can see the police OT waste taking place right in front of your eyes!

Maybe it will hit you since nothing else seems to phase you guys!!!

You guys are like programmed robots who don't change...unless the Moderator will make an effort to reprogram your brains.

Anon,

Prove your average math is right. Show us the money. Work it out by category the taxes you pay and show us it actually costs *YOU* $63 per year. Then, show us how it's making you living in Naperville something that is getting harder to afford.

Again, you're talk but won't put up your numbers to show us how 'accurate' the 'averaging' really is.

If anyone's share comes out to $63 in reality via their taxes paid, they are pretty darn well off financially, more so than most of Naperville. But please, continue to cry us a river about how much of a pinch it's making in your finances.

Joe,
It is nice to see you can no longer defend yourself...it seems like you have surrendered after John Q. Public exposed your lack of mathematical skills.

You were such an embarrassment asking everyone to submit their real estate tax bills so you, Joe, who does not know math, can compute them. Wow! Unbelievable!!!

And you claim your math is closer than the Napergatian Calculator!
And that since you are more "right" than they are, they must be wrong! Man, oh man, Joe! Are u one of a kind or what!

The Napergatians were accurate from Day One and stuck with their ranges. Their ranges proved right on target.

Your .96 cents and $1.87 range was totally insane. A fifth grader would have known better.

Go review some math books instead of blogging day and night for nearly a year and a half. Get a life, Joe! Get over your sick addiction to blogging and having to comment everywhere.

Play the stock market....check out some pretty girls on match.com.

Play baseball with your children. Take a walk with a neighbor to Arizona. Go visit the Aliens on Google Satellite who were watching Ameena's car in the cab spot! Do something Joe! Anything Joe!

Get a life, Joe!

Ken,

The reimbursement is as a result of a sham. We are taxed by the City of Naperville 1% for a cultural fund in the sales tax we pay daily. The money is then taken and given to the charities to the tune of $100,000 as long as they promise to pass it on to the NPD in the form of OT.

The money to reimbures police is not coming from the charities. It is coming from the taxpayer.

You are about as dense if not as dense as Joe.

I think your comprehension is so limited you can not contemplate what a sham means or how it works.

You win for denseness in English Comprehension. Your buddy Joe wins in denseness for Mathematical Computations.

At least Mr. John Q. Public offered to tutor Joe.

No one is even offering to tutor you, Ken.

You are beyond help!

Sorry!!!

Good luck to you in all your future endeavors!

Anon,

Good riddance.

Anonymouse, if you are going to accuse me of lacking reading comprehension, you should show some yourself. A glaring example of your lack of reading comprehension is your tired argument of how much police overtime cost you. You keep failing to comprehend the fact that the city gets reimbursed for some of that overtime. Until it is known exactly how much is reimbursed, your entire argument is moot along with your convoluted calculations.

As for lack of logic, lack of debating skills, and antagonizing fellow posters, have you looked in the mirror lately?

Joe,
3.15 million divided by 50,000 households and businesses is 63 dollars. This is what it is COSTING us. This Blog Site is about all Napervillians and not about Joe. It is about averages.

When you are self centered, it is understandable that you will only care about your home and no one elses.

Again, if there was no OT each one of us would save 63 dollars on the AVERAGE

There is a concept known as last in first out. The last money needed for the NPD is coming from our real estate tax bills.(Lifo) If the NPD can make budgets cuts, lifo kicks in and we would be the first to benefit.

The first 63 dollars in savings will come off our real estate tax bills, unless city officials decided to launder it into the pension fund to double Mr. Bob Marshall's pay or save it to give Chief Dial a million dollar parachute pay on his retirement day. You never know what City Officials are up to. But they are always up to abusing our money and I think this abuse is going to stop in the next election.

Watch and see, Joe! You will only get it when your buddies in power are all ousted. Not even your tutor, Mr. John Q. Public can get thru to you.

It appears most Naperatians finally got tired of talking to a brick wall. Soon I will join them as I am getting tired of talking to a brick wall too. It will be you and Ken conrolling these blog sites.
They will be all yours, Joe! Enjoy them!

Moderator Jim hoped to build his blog site with people like you and Ken antagonizing everyone and getting a good debate. It appears the opposite happened. Bloggers can only take so much antagonizing, Joe. You are not a debator. You are an antagonizer who seeks name recognition.

Well, it appears, you single handedly with the help of Ken destroyed this blog site. It is disappointing that the Moderator could not come in a few times and tell you to use some reason and logic and stop being so stubborn. But he never came in and allowed you to chase everyone off this blog site but a handful from both sides.

I wish I would have seen the Moderator at least come on once and say, Joe, come to your senses, averages are important in this world and we deal with them day and night. He never stepped in. Bloggers can not debate endlessly in circles with no results. Moderator Jim allowed this to happen and everyone seemed to have migrated away from his blog site to other more fruitful activities.

A moderator has to moderator. He can not allow Joe and Ken to destroy his blogs. He unintentionally did!

Apparently that makes you happy,Joe! Enjoy your ego and rises, Joe. This is what it is all about for you. Hopefully, the Moderator will handle this blog site better next time around and weed trouble makers like you and Ken before you offend so many people as you have done! For over a year! My goodness, Joe! Enough is enough with your silliness, ignorance and immaturity!

Anon,

Break our your numbers to show your $63.

If you can't do that, then you're just talking smack.

Ken,

Since your reading skills and comprehension are so low, let me see if reverse anaylsis or thinking may help you.

If Chief David Dial could elimiate this 3.15 million in police OT, each homeowner/business would be taxed 63 dollars less on his Real Estate Tax Bill. We would all be 63 dollars richer if Chief Dial could eliminate police OT.

We try to pay for most City Services using other taxation. In the police department it is other taxation and tickets. The Real Estate Tax Bill covers the shortfalls in other taxation resulting from the excessive waste. If there is a reduction in expenses by our City, the reduction will all reflect accordingly on our Real Estate Tax Bills. We are not going to refund anyone for sales tax or utility tax. Or stamps to buy his home. We the homeowners and businesses get the savings on our real estate tax bills when and if the City of Naperville can become more efficient and stop subsidizing charities, downtown landlords, parking decks, etc. ect.

Oak Brook has no village real estate tax for the village residents.
The sale tax from the Oak Brook Mall(and other taxes excluding real estate) more than covers the expense of the Village including the police dept. If their police dept. doubled its size for no reason and started racking up massive OT, the Oak Brook Mall Sales tax(and other taxes excluding real estate) may not be enough. At that point they would have to charge the residents real estate tax as Naperville charges us.

Here is another way to think of it. Sixteen percent of our $380,000,000 budget comes from real estate taxes. If the City of Naperville can reduce the 380M budget by 16%, we would also have no real estate tax for the City of Naperville on our Dupage Real Estate Tax Bills just like Oak Brook. The saving to the owner of a 517,000 dollar home would be about $1723.44 when eliminating all City Categories including the library.

We should have a great incentive to reduce taxes. We the Naperville real estate tax payers are the ones who will benefit the most and almost exclusively when City Offials reduce expenses in a serious manner...not only 5% of police OT which is window dressing for public relations and consumption.

Is a reduction of 16% realistic at this time under our current City Council? Not in a million years. But a reduction of 8% is very possible and realistic and would result in $861.72 dollar reduction to each homeowner and business.

If you are having trouble understanding my logic, Joe, check with your private math tutor, Mr. John Q. Public. He is an excellent tutor. It is too bad that your are an F- student despite having such an excellent tutor who lays it down for you in a way a 5th grade can understand.

As far as Ken, I doubt that he can comprehend this letter or even has the ability to read it. I hope someone on this blog site volunteers to be his tutor. Good luck with that task! He could be another F- reading and comprehension student. Just like his idol, Joe!

Joe,
You are still confused.

I live in an average half a million dollar home in Naperville that I am sure will becoming down in price in the next assessment period. When I add up all the taxes I pay, not just in Real Estate Taxes, I believe I am near the average or slightly above the 63 dollars.

It is costing us all 3.15 million. The Naperville Sun had a blog in which it said the average or median price of a home is about $517,000 from recollection. I believe they were high because they did not factor in that most houses that are sitting in the market to be sold are higher end homes. The true cost of a home in Naperville is substantially less. I am talking averages Joe whether you like it or not because that is how the whole country talks except for you. Including the US. Govt, Census Bureau, State and City of Naperville. Even the Naperville Sun!

Using a one in a billion example of a 25,000 home and a 10 million dollar home on the same block is stupid talk. It is T.B. bolony and salami talk. What is wrong with you guys? Maybe I should move to my neighbor's home since there is a one in a billion chance a meteroite will fall on my home in the next 10,000 years. What the hell is wrong with you Joe?

Where is Ameena to fight you when we need here? Your aliens from Google Satellite probably kidnapped that poor girl!

But going with the Sun's number, if that were the average it costs you 63 dollars for police OT. Notice, I said "COSTS!"

Here is why 'averages' are bad to use.

If you have a street with 2 people living on it, one makes 10 million a year and the other makes $25K a year.

ON AVERAGE, they both make just over 5 million a year.

That is not true for either of them.

If you make a public policy decision based on the ASSUMPTION that the 25K income person is making 5 million a year you will be so wrong and doing them a complete disservice.

Voters do not care about averages, they care about their specific wallet.

Please, Anon, post your taxes using the .008 method to see how close or far your are actually paying versus the 'average' method.

You have to live in a million dollar home, pay a disgusting amount to the electrical department and buy a ton of things in Naperville to really be paying that much in taxes for police OT.

You will have had to pay JUST TO NAPERVILLE, $8,750 in TAXES to hit your $70 average.

If you are actually paying that much to Naperville in taxes to meet the 'average cost' criteria then you are not part of the "Oh poor us little people who can not afford anything" crowd you pretend to be.

Sorry, you just aren't.

Thank God for John Q. Public because you would never listen to a Napergatian even if he or she was FACTUAL!

That's a mighty big if in that statement, Anonymouse 9:27pm!

Just out of idle curiosity, what tax money cancels out all the business travelers that fill hotel row over on Diehl road? Your premise that spending your money outside of Naperville somehow negates all the tax money that comes in from out of towners is hysterical, but not the least factual. It belongs in the napergate cult fantasy world, one that Joe could never hope to match in his wildest fantasies.

Anon,

I put my taxes through the proper formula and posted it.

Put yours through it and post it.

'average cost' doesn't mean jack crap to someone's specific wallet.

Post yours and see how close it is to your 'average'. Mine was well below your average.

Joe,
What are you talking about. The bottom line is this 3.15 million of OT was paid mostly by the residents in one form or another. Sales tax people spend in Naperville is cancelled out by sales tax Napervillians spend in other towns. We are not Niagara Falls with our 6 inch deep filthy river. No one is coming to see it from New York or California. No one even heard of us except Mony Magazine who likes how we raise out kids...lol...their reporter most have been on drugs when he did that article and smoking dope with our youth while interviewing them...maybe he ran into the junior Birkett and his buddies during the interview process as they were children at the time.

Joe, just divide the 3.15 million by the number of businesses and homeowners in town which is estimated to be about 50k, and you get about 63 dollars per household/business. It just happens my figure is the average of the high and low range of Realtor Ryan's figures of 58 to 63 dollars. That is what it is costing each of us regardless of the source of taxation...of which we know there are many that have been discussed before! No need to repeat them since I know you read every post on every thread, Joe!

The Napergatians and their Calculator were always right. You live in a fantasy world, Joe, where you think Naperville is a top 10 tourist attraction generating a positive net sales tax. My suspicion as others mentioned is that we have a negative net sales tax because we are missing a Big Mall and most of us vacation out of the boundaries of the City of Naperville.

At some point Joe you are going to have to come out of denial and admit you were not just a little wrong but a lot wrong. Thank God for John Q. Public because you would never listen to a Napergatian even if he or she was FACTUAL!

Yes,

I applied the dilution factor to the wrong thing. I was right the first time on April 25th:

"By Joe on April 25, 2008 2:31 PM

Liebert,

It was said that police OT was .8% of the city budget.
That means you multiply your tax dollar for the city fund by .008"

Let's see if Caroline (It seems to me $3,150,000 divided by 45,000 households is $70 dollars per household any way you slice it.), Marlette (Yes, $70 bucks a year that I could be spending to buy clothes for my kids. ), Thompson (No matter how you slice it, the homeowners are contributing at least 60 bucks per household.), Ramos (It seemed like the Napergatians reduced it from 70 bucks to 60 bucks by factoring in that non-downtown buinesses are contributing.) and others can admit their NGC has an error too.

Joe,
It seems you now are finally admitting you are wrong in a round about way as is your trademark, but through some distorted logic you feel you are less wrong than the Napergatians.

Realtor Ryan made the most sense. Review his posts.

Maybe even John Q. Public can review Realtor Ryan's post and give us an opinion.

Mr. Public seems knowledgable and respected.

At least you are admitting those .96 to 1.87 cents make no sense.

John Q. Public apparently has the patience to educate you. The Napergatians ran out of patience a long time ago.

That was a great example Mr. Public used to prove your nonsense...it was such nonsense and you defended it for 2 weeks.

Time to go back and take Math 101 in college again Joe!!!

Joe,

I'm not arguing that your real estate taxes will balloon your contribution up to $70. I'm just saying that your incorrect calculation gives a figure that is too low, even if the correct figure is still not astronomical.

-JQP

Very nice John Q. Public...

Let us hope you are the first to be able to get thru to Joe....no one else has been able to get thru to him.

I think he successfully frustrated all the Napergatians.

It seems they finally got tired of talking to a brick wall....Joe is like a brick wall....an earthquake has to hit him to rattle him..

Maybe your explanation which was superb will hit him like an earthquake and he may just get it..

JQP,

For the sake of argument, if I back out the percentage normalization step, my 'fair share' still comes out to $24.96 and that is assuming I paid $1500 in sales tax which I know for a fact I did not do, but I am going to take your side for a moment and do it your way.

70 - 25 = $45 off using the Napergate Calculator to compute one's 'fair share'.

25 - $4 (rounded up, for argument's sake) = $21 off using my method.

Which method is closer? Certainly not the Napergate calculator. Even if we use the low balled $60 amount put out there, it's still $35 off while the other method is $21 off.

Our RE tax dollar purchasing power gets diluted with other sources of income in the general fund. At $3,150,000 total for Police OT, only $504,000 comes from RE taxes (16% of each $1 the city spends). That's the dilution rate. $504,000 comes from Utility tax money and $913,500 comes from sales tax dollars, and the rest comes from all of the other sources of funding based on their actual funding percentage to the total of $1,228,500 that I'm not paying any part of and neither are most other residents.

It's quite possible everyone's wrong on this one.

Joe,

You are still confusing the city's income with it's expenses when you multiply your various categories of taxes by the percentage that those taxes make of total city income. Again, this percentage DOES NOT MATTER when it comes to determining how much of each tax dollar you pay goes to any particular expense. All that matters is the percentage that this particular expense is of total expenditures (0.8%, in the case of police OT).

Here is a simple model that might help you better understand why you are mistaken:

A city named Baumburg derives all of it's income from two sources: property taxes and sales taxes. Baumburg has only one tax-paying resident, Adam Baum, and he pays $75K in property taxes to the city, and an additional $25K in city sales taxes. Baumburg divides it's $100K income equally ($25K each) across four major budget items: libraries; police; administration; and city services.

If we use your method to compute how much Mr. Baum's property tax bill contributes to the $25K that Baumburg spends on libraries, we get:

75000 * .75 * .25 = $14,062.50

To find out how much of the library budget derives from Mr. Baum's sales taxes:

25000 *.25. *.25 = $1562.50

All told, using your method, $15,625 of Mr. Baum's tax money is spent on libraries. So where does the other $9375 of the library's budget come from?

Respectfully,

-JQP

Anon,

Their only question:

"What do you think in dollar and cents is your share for police OT based on your real estate taxes and based on all your taxes?"

I answered the RE portion in prior posts.

Again, sorry if you missed it. I answered before they asked. If they bothered to read and comprehend they would know the answer to their question before they answered it.

My sales tax was a drop in the bucket too. As I already stated, not all residents shop exclusively in Naperville. My staple places to go for everyday purchasing are not located in Naperville. My utility taxes for electric and water work out to $120 for the entire year. That equates out to just over a 15 cents from those taxes going to police OT (120 * .16 * .008)

All said and done (and I'll assume sales tax = RE taxes, which is bunk anyway because I know I did not pay 1500 in sales tax to Naperville) (1500 * .29 * .008 = $3.48)

So, $1.81 from RE, $0.15 from utility tax and $3.48 TOPS from sales tax = $5.44 towards police OT

That's a far cry from your $70 'average' and much closer to my real number put forth earlier using only RE taxes ($1.81)

$70 - 5.44 = $64.56 overestimation using Napergate Calculator

$1.81 - 5.44 = $3.63 underestimation using city budget and funding rates with tax receipts. (my way)

Enjoy your hump day.

Joe,

Do you realize that you ignored all the questions "Always Talking in Circles" asked you?

I think you proved his point that you always talk in circles.

In the Ameena days you talked straight.

Now you have become like T.B. always talking in circles.

Please review his post and try to answer some of his questions, Joe!

Thank you, Joe!

Anonymouse May 12, 2008 1:23 PM, if you had bothered to read this whole thread, you would have seen in the beginning that I unequivocally stated that I do not support most city or police actions. I also stated that I can't support wild conspiracy theories either. Most of the napergatians put forth all kind of conspiracy theories with no facts to support them. Much as I hate defending the city or the police, the napergatians make it almost impossible not to do so with their wild rantings.

Napergatian, why would you think you know anything about how I raise my kids? That is the problem with you and your ilk, you state things as fact and expect others to believe them without question. Since all my kids are straight A students, I don't think your point as any validity at all. In other words, a typical cult statement.

By the way, rebelling against my Dad would be kind of useless, as he is no longer living. I just feel an urge to point out the fallacies of an argument, especially ones as badly flawed as those posted here.

ATIC,

Your spending habits are different from mine and mine from yours. What you pay as your fair share doesn't apply to me and what I pay does not apply to you.

Why does this seem like such a difficult concept for you to grasp?

The 'average' is meaningless because I don't pay your 'average' I can assure you. Further, your 'average' does not take into account taxes paid by people who do not live here. There is not a Great Wall of Naperville that keeps other people from coming here and spending money and generating tax revenue, nor does it prevent residents from going to other municipalities to do their purchasing which would not put their sales tax into Naperville's pockets.

I know 'simple' seems easier to some people because taking into account all of the moving parts and pieces and how they interrelate requires one to keep track of many things at motion at once.

Since I touched on a very real source of revenue (sales tax), do you think people want to come to Naperville from outside our city limits to shop here if they felt there was not enough police presence to keep them safe? Keeping enough police around to give the perception actually HELPS our taxes because it makes more out of town people be willing to come here to shop and eat because they know they are going to have little to no chance of a problem. Their car will be parked where they left it, the contents still in it. Their wallet will not go missing after someone bumps into them while they walk from Jefferson down to Chicago Ave, etc.

Make the police seem non existent and the out of towners will stop coming here and their donations (sales tax) to the city general fund will go down. When that happens, your property taxes go up to make up the difference. Kapish?

As I said, there are many moving parts to this whole thing and everything interrelates. You can not chop/cut one thing without effecting another (usually in an unforeseen negatively impacting way).

Joe,

You never make anything easy. You are always talking in circles!

I believe you have a house in the $500,000 to $1,000,000 range based on tax numbers you have thrown out.

What do you think in dollar and cents is your share for police OT based on your real estate taxes and based on all your taxes?

I think averages are very relevant and people speak about averages all the time. The US Government always speaks of averages.

No newspaper could ever print 300,000,000 peoples' individual situations so they speak of averages for the country known as the USA.

No, his highness, on the throne, Joe, is trying to convince us AVERAGES are meaningless.

I agree with Maryann that Realtor Ryan gave us an excellent range of $58-$68 for every homeowner and business owner in town. It seems like the majority find his numbers very acceptable.

Except for Joe, who does not believe in AVERAGES. Do you believe in median prices, Joe?

Let us get serious, Joe, and tell us how City Hall can improve its productivity. Certainly, you don't feel they are perfect!

Maryann, I already laid it out. I'm sorry you missed it.

You fair share for police OT from your RE taxes is listed in this posting: By Joe on April 25, 2008 5:41 PM

Just add the sum of your city portions to the formula.

To adjust it and figure out the rest, simple take the percentage of what a fund is in the general fund (utility bills, for instance) and replace the .16 with that new percentage normalizer. Astonishingly, that too is 16% of the general fund.

Then, add your utility bill taxes for the year and your 'fair share' from your utility bill taxes are:

(Your Utility taxes) * .16 * .008 (police OT percentage of entire city budget)

Add them together, and you have your fair share from RE taxes *AND* utility bills. If you know how much sales tax you paid in the year, do the formula again with the sales tax fraction of the general fund (29%):

(SalesTaxPaid) * .29 * .008 == what you paid towards police OT from your sales tax.

Now those three numbers show you even more accurately your fair share. Do you know how much you paid in sales tax? If you only shop in Naperville, probably a lot. If you shop out of town; probably not so much. :) Everyone will have a different number, and everyone can go through the city budget and figure out THEIR fair share which will be different from everyone else's FAIR SHARE. What you arrive at will be unique to you specifically and more accurate than the other 'average' garbage.

Where you are confused is you keep overlooking the fact that I am finding YOUR share.. *NOT* an 'average'. My method is specific to the person doing the calculation using their receipts in hand for taxes paid. The 'average' method is a white-wash methodology that does not reflect any individual's reality. My method shows you YOUR OWN fair share. Everyone's will be different based on the taxes they specifically paid themselves.

By Joe on May 6, 2008 9:31 PM
Maryann,

I would not call that purposeful spin being educated, informed or mature. You can't even acknowledge the proper math formula and still insist on using an 'average' that has no basis in reality as shown time and time again. My numbers come from my tax bill and then factored in to the city budget dollar amounts based on the percentage of contribution those property taxes make to the city general fund and then are multiplied by the percentage of the overall budget that is the Police Overtime. I know using actual numbers can be confusion, and I asked many people to post their RE taxes so we could do the same for them.. but no one seemed to want to for whatever reason.

====================================================================

Joe,

Could you care to explain what you are saying. Your statement is very confusing.

Could you try to explain what your number is using mathematical equations that we could follow one by one to reach your number of somewhere between .96 to a 1.87 per household/business for police OT. Regardless, of what number you choose I think you are way off and confused.

If John Q. Public says you are confused, you must be. He is not even a Napergatian.

Try to lay it out if you can Joe in mathematical formulas. I tend to think that Realtor Ryan's estimate of 58-68 dollar for the average homeowner and business is the best estimates so far provided on the Sun's Blog Site!

Using actual numbers and showing us your math computations is not confusing Joe. What is confusing is your nonsensical verbatim! Try to read what you wrote above and convert it to mathematical equations. It will be much simpler assuming you can do it.

I personally feel your numbers are totally impossible as computed...you have a serious error in your logic and thinking!

Ken,

If the Napergate Man's battles were not the main part of your life then, why have they suddenly become the main part of your life now?

You have 5 kids and you are devoting more attention to blogging against the Napergate Man and Napergatians than to any one of your 5 kids.

Have you ever thought of helping your kids with English Reading or Grammar instead of being the number one blogger on this Blog Site?

Where is this blog site going to get you? Just take care of your kids!

Let the rest of us handle City Hall. We will even reduce your taxes giving you more money to spend on your kids!

Your kids should be much more important than City Officials who are increasing your expenses at a rate that exceeds 15% annually. You may not feel the effects of such an incredible tax increase from one year but you will feel their effects in a big way after a few years. I guarantee you that!

You will one day before thankful to us Napergatians! It sounds like your Dad may have even been a member of the Napergate Movement! Could you be rebelling against your Dad possibly? What motivates you, Ken? Is there some hidden agenda of revenge that you have against someone who may have been a Napergatian if it was not your Dad?

I can only suspect it was much worse for someone in the liquor business that has kiss butt to keep his licenses. Anyone who deals with the city and takes the napergate man's tact is doing so out of revenge for the shoddy treatment that the city gives to most businesses.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Ken,
So you are admitting this City of Napervile treats most businesses rather shoddily. Including your Dad's business! May I ask why do you support a City that treat businesses shoddily!

Why should a businessman have to kiss butt to keep his liquor license? He should be able to keep his liquor license if he performs well such as confiscating Fake Ids. and cutting off Patrons before they reach the state of intoxication.

It seems in downtown Naperville if you put a poster supporting estbalishment candidates, you can serve patrons until they become intoxicated. The police outside are ready to nab them at a great cost to the citizens and no cost to the bars and nightclubs. When was the last time you heard a downtown nightclub was being subjected to a Napergate Style Kangaroo Trial for serving so many drunks?

We all know many of the annual DUI cases in Naperville come from downtown patrons. Has any downtown bar been subjected to any closure or revocation for serving intoxicated patrons in the last 3 years? To my knowledge no estbalishment has ever been revoked unless the Naperville Sun is not reporting the news.

Why are there no preventive measures taken in our city? An ounce of prevention is always cheaper than a pound of medicine!

Anonymouse 2:32pm, you don't think dealing with the city for years would not promote a feeling of disdain and a want for revenge? My Dad had an office in downtown Naperville and had nothing but contempt for the city the way they treated businesses. I can only suspect it was much worse for someone in the liquor business that has kiss butt to keep his licenses. Anyone who deals with the city and takes the napergate man's tact is doing so out of revenge for the shoddy treatment that the city gives to most businesses.

As for your question of what I was doing, yes I did have quit a few 18 hour days. I was supporting my family, and still am. If you consider mid 40's old, than I am old. No memory loss concerning the napergate man, as his battles were not a main part of my life. If presenting facts to support my arguments, and giving my own opinion based on those facts makes me senile in your eyes, what does that make you?

Ken,

The Napergate Man's business battles were over in 1995.

He continued his efforts supporting the residents after his battles till 2001. He was involved in 4 elections after his battles were long over. He was involved in Spring Green and SW Gate long after his battles were over.

I think he simply got tired after 20 years.

He also battled the City of Naperville before be had any business problems as you incorrectly fail to note!

His ads were non-Napergate ads before the time of his liquor battles.

I think the City of Naperville was motivated by revenge when they attacked his liquor licenses for going against the establishment policies and improprieties plus incompetence.

He was just defending himself.

I think you have it all backward from a sequential point of view.

Again they attacked his businesses unjustifiably because he exposed how the establishment ran this town in a corrupt and crony way.

They did not like how he exposed the connections thru contributions from the Brestal Law Firms.

He ran a sequence of ads called Golfgate in which he exposed those connections. They preceded his liquor license revocations by nearly a half a decade.

There is no doubt in my mind that the City of Naperville retaliated against him in a vengeful and revengeful manner. They just took it too far and he was able to expose them even further by showing they will attempt to muzzle and destroy you if you speak up against the establishment.

He spoke out before they revoked him, during his revocations, and 7 years after. They simply could not muzzle him.

He may have simply moved on to better and bigger things after 20 years.

Most athletes also retire after 20 years. It is hard to keep the pace he kept when he was in his prime. I suspect he is over 50 and not in his prime anymore to do all he did at one time.

Keep in mind he was trying to run 6 businesses, fight City Hall, fight court battles, be an investigative reporter, be a columnist, raise a family, etc. etc. etc.

I think the city motivated him by attacking him. But he was not seeking revenge. He was defending himself and his businesses and his sources of income.

The City of Naperville clearly was seeking revenge. I think the lengthy court records will reveal that clearly. He could not have won his civil rights case if it was as you stated. He was simply a victim of free speech who told the truth that hurt some establishment folks a little too much. End of story!

Were you also working 18 hours a day like Joe, when all this was going on, Ken! Or do you guys both have loose bearings upstairs as Obama has stated McCain may have.

You both seem older and the bearings do seem to be a little loose...especially the memory bearings!

Another Anonymuse, what critical thinking did you display in your post at 1:08pm yesterday? It was the usual cult attack post. If you consider posts that contain no facts by the napergaitans logical, you are the one who has been brainwashed.

Can it be possible that most of you who venerate the napergate man do not realize that his actions were motivated by revenge? If he was the tax fighting, government corruption fighting hero you make him out to be, he would not have stopped when he won all his battles related to his business. By the way, of course he supports the middle class; they tend to buy more liquor. You don't see dust on Joe Sixpack's beer but you sure see dust on the high end liquor bottles.

Up until now, most Napervillians seemed to regard their high tax bills as one of the status symbols that are part and parcel of living in Naperville. Now that they are spending $200 a week to gas up their SUV's (more of the status symbol package), they are suddenly concerned about taxes. Too bad you didn't realize how out of control taxes were about 25 years ago, when the boom started. Now the monster is out of the cage, and it is too late to lock the door.

The worst part of all of this is that all you self labeled tax fighting concerned citizens with a supposed membership of over 10,000 do nothing about it. You come here and rave like lunatics and cry for the good old days when you had a leader that would spend his own money for your agenda. If it means so much to you, why doesn't someone step up and lead the tax fighter's revolution?

Mitch and Lisa,

I agree with both of you. That letter from Wehrli was orchestrated to shift the damage all to D.F. I am glad it did not work.

I am glad Joe, Ken, RJ, SWT, and whoever is subbing that day in the fifth spot have not shown their faces here for a while. That group really has no logical or critical thinking.

Their no. 1 sub for that fifth position, T.B. has really lost it in the last 3 months. It is like Joe and Ken brainwashed him into their own cult. There was a time I really respected T.B. I simply do not know what happened to him unless he was always a phony like that Quick Question who was just baiting. That QQ was dumber than the dumbest dog I ever met. He was so transparent! He fooled no one!

I am glad he retired his CHARACTER!!! I am sure this QQ was created by one of the members of the gang of five!

Mitch,

I totally agree with you. The Napergate Man had been warning us about out of control skyrocketing government waste that will eventually bring unbearable taxes. No one listened to him in the 90s! I suspect people regret not listening as it has finally happened.

I think all income levels finally felt it. The City of Naperville did not do any belt tightening before this crises. They were caught completely off guard.

As soon as they knew we were getting a 15.5% increase on our tax bill, they asked Wehrli to write a letter to the editor and blame it all on Dick Furstenau. I guess they could not blame it on Peter Burchard as that was part of the separation contract and the ballon payments to boot.

That is just a small portion of our tax increase anyway. And they are the incompetent ones who are paying a million dollars to higher high priced lawyers to defend a very petty suit that could have been settled for a simple apology. Later on it could have been settled for 129k. Attorneys could have been retained for 10k instead of 1 million to defend such a petty lawsuit if there was no desire on the behalf of city officials for a settlement!

The egos are driving this DF case just like the egos once drove the Napergate Man case in the famous Kangaroo Trials. It is de ja vu all over again!

I hope we do get a new powerful cost conscious Napergate Slate in the next election. If we don't, our current officials will run us all out of town if they continue on their misguided and destructive paths.

Moderator Jim,

It seems to me we may be having a class struggle in Naperville. We were at one time mostly a middle class community with some upper class. Now it seems we are mostly an upper class community loaded with many multi-millionaiers.

The middle class is being shoved out of town especially within a one or two mile radious of downtown Naperville. Their homes are being bought and torn down only to be replaced by the mansions of the very rich and wealthy. I suspect the middle class selling their homes, aren't selling by total choice...but by necessity. Mostly not being able to afford to keep up with the Joneses and higher taxes who are not worried about their 20k to 80k in real estate tax bills.

I think some of the extreme poplularity of the Napergate Man stems from the facts that he is the only rich and wealthy guy in town who ever cared about the middle class. He seems to be always fighting for their rights and interests which he seemed to realize were parallel to his. The rich must also understand that unless you are a Bill Gates or Warren Buffett you will be also swept up by the Tsunami....yes a little later but you will be swept up.

The rich and even the hard core establishment need to be supporting the middle class Napergatians who are the front line. If the front line collapses, expect a Domino effect.

The Naperville Sun reported BP Amoco is moving 1000 employees out of Naperville back into Chicago. This is a real blow to the city. Maybe BP no longer sees any savings of being in Naperville or for its employees to be in Naperville. Unlike the Napergate Man or his supporters, they don't complain. They just pick up and leave. Maybe, they figured out that it does not pay to complain in this town since no one listens.

I wish more rich people were like the Napergate Man and cared about every dollar spent by our City Officials. But most wealthy people have no foresight and do not care until their disposable income evaporates. Apparently, their DI has not dissappeared yet and that is why they could care less if Chief Dial spends 30 million on Police OT.

I think the middle class finally understands what the Napergate Man preached for 20 years. It finally hit home with the massive escalation in food, gas and taxes in the last year. And now we have a report that a barrel of oil is going to $200 or nearly $7 dollar a barrel if not $8.

What the wealthy have to realize, is that eventually this government waste can escalate and even bite the rich in the butt...or result in cancelled vacations...or even result in mansion foreclsouses.

A wealthy person who can afford 80,000 in Real Estate Taxes may not be able to afford 120,000 in Real Estate Taxes on his mansion.

I think it is time the upper class and the filthy rich joined the Napergate Man and the Napergatians in the battle to keep expenses at City Hall under control. If they wait much longer, the battle could be lost and Naperville will be a home of huge mansions with no one being able to afford to live in them....yes the Home of the Empty Mansions could be Naperville's new logo if we don't take swift and corrective action IMMEDIATELY!

This once happened to oil rich Houston which got cocky and arrogant in its ways of spending. Let us hope it does not happen to home equity rich Naperville when all those lines of mansion equity credit either dry up or are called back!

Maryann,

You're right, I did. I also said WHY.. because you kept citing over and over numbers that had long since been updated and corrected...yet you continued to use them in some silly attempt to prove some 'point' about made up 'averages'. You repeated the 96 cent number which was corrected when the new tax bills came and I corrected THAT AFTERNOON multiple times after I had already made the correction.

I would not call that purposeful spin being educated, informed or mature. You can't even acknowledge the proper math formula and still insist on using an 'average' that has no basis in reality as shown time and time again. My numbers come from my tax bill and then factored in to the city budget dollar amounts based on the percentage of contribution those property taxes make to the city general fund and then are multiplied by the percentage of the overall budget that is the Police Overtime. I know using actual numbers can be confusion, and I asked many people to post their RE taxes so we could do the same for them.. but no one seemed to want to for whatever reason.

Also, I don't become upset when someone thinks I am Joe Matchett.. I laugh my butt off at their ignorance. That's far from being angry, I assure you. My self identity in life doesn't come from a blog site, so don't you go and worry about that.

Honestly, I don't care if you are or know or anyone else on here is/was/might be/is the daughter of / neighbor of / has a distant infatuation with the Napergate Man and I never said you were only that you were writing like, talking like.. and I further went on to actually shoot that connection down with the statement "Of course, no one believes he would be wasting his time on a silly blog site that reaches such a small percentage of the population"

.. so how you walked away still believing in a definite accusation about you being the Napergate man.. *shrug*

Enjoy the nice weather.

Joe,

You said I was immature and ignorant on another post.

I think that is attacking my personality instead of my message.

I believe it was on the OT post!

Plus keep in mind Joe, when people throw the slightest hint your are Joe Matchett you get angry...you become very upset.

But you continue to accuse or imply many people are the Napergate Man when in some cases as myself, I have never even crossed paths with him. Just wanted to point out a double standard from your angle.

But feel free to continue making comparisons between he and I, as it honors me to be compared to him. I am sure Diana was honored too!

I was never involved in any of his movements.

I learned about him on this blog site.

Anyway Joe, I hope you can tone down the personal attacks.

I think most of the attacks directed at you were related to your numbers and had nothing to do with your personality.

People just did not seem to think those $.96 or $1.81 numbers reflected the true cost of police OT. That is all bloggers were questioning and were hoping to get an explanation from you.

Maryann,

I believe you have either a perception problem or a definition problem if you think I have attacked you. I may have countered your opinions and provided framework and reference for those counters but I do not believe I have ever 'attacked' you.

If you can cite a clear example of me attacking you, I will own up to it and apologize for my behavior.

Don't worry, I won't expect the same in return since.

Joe,

Thanks for the comparison with Mr. Esmail or his wrtings. I am very honored by your complement. I am glad to join Diana in writing like Mr. Esmail or thinking like him.

I did go to the library and read about 10 of his old ads. They were very well written, emotional and powerful. I only wish I could write like him. I believe when he wrote those ads he was very angry and upset. I think that was why he was so effective. He seems to have been able to get everyone else angry and upset. I suspect that is how he motivated people to get off their butts and do something. His strategy was successful as the results clearly show!

Apparently you have forgotten who I am, Joe, since I am only one of a 1000 people who you have attacked in the last 15 months on this blog site.

I am the same Maryann who use to run away from you before I ever heard of Napergate. I was once enjoying myself on the Road Warrior Thread with Host Ted and Moderator Jim until you showed up. I then moved away. I am the same Maryann from those old days. The Host and Moderator have my e-mail address from those days plus my IP address and neither has changed!

I only learned about the Napergate Man from this blog site.

I am not inside his head or know his current thoughts. But if you read his Napergate ads, as you should, you can understand his head, his old thoughts and his way of thinking.

Most Napergatians read his ads and understand his way of thinking. That is why we we adopted his platform. The more we sound like him, the more we understand him, and the more successful we will be. I think that is very good. I thank you for the complement, Joe!

Ken,
I responded to your post on the food thread. No need to respond here again in length.

I have some time off due to a cancelled vacation and I try to contribute to this debate from life experiences and research.

All you do is comment on what others say.

Why don't you give us some of your life experiences and how you are impacted?

Are you so wealthy that you do not care about government waste?

If that is your case, you have every right not to care about government waste.

But some of us are not in your position and need to watch our budgets and try to control government waste that means higher or even unaffordable taxes to us. To some it may one day mean foreclosure!

I was socked with an increase of $700 dollars on my real estate tax bill. To my family that is a major crisis and one of several things including increased food and gas prices that caused us to cancel our annual two week vacation.

So while you think Jim's Blogs are a joke, some of us think they are serious, and may even be helpful in reaching our city officials for some possible savings in how they do business.

Sometimes "business as usual" is not the best way to do business!!!

Maryann,

"The 2 major Charity Events are not emergencies. They are planned months in advance. They need to hire the best security for the best price. It is simply not happening."

Apparently, those in the position to make the decisions think it's the best security for the price.

If you don't like the decision, get yourself elected into the decision making position and change it.

You are starting to write like you are Esmail with an alter ego testing the waters out there.. Of course, no one believes he would be wasting his time on a silly blog site that reaches such a small percentage of the population.. but still, you're talking like you are inside his head or know his thoughts. Luckily, supposition and presumption is well established on here, so it's not that out of the ordinary.

Maryann, everything you have said has been refuted over and over. No one has shown which overtime is necessary or wasteful. The constant harping about special events continues to ignore the fact that the OT accrued there is reimbursed.

As for other peoples view of the napergate cult, I think this post from the food thread neatly sums it up:

Maryann, Does every single blog have to be about bashing local government and promoting whatever your personal agenda includes? Can we just talk about food prices and the impact on our families! Yes I know your tax bill went up, yes you don't trust the City Council, blah, blah, blah. You have other forums for that and I think the Moderator should make you go back to them.

If you had bothered to read this whole post, you would realize why telling me to volunteer at anything could be considered a low blow. Since you and your ilk show an extreme lack of reading comprehension, I will just chalk it up to ignorance.

Ken,
I think you are wrong. People with common sense really don't agree with you.

Most people do not call a union repairmen and pay time and a half or double time and a half on Sunday even if there is an emergency if it can be handled without overtime. We feel the city should do the same as we do in our lives and avoid OT at all costs but unavoidable emergencies.

The 2 major Charity Events are not emergencies. They are planned months in advance. They need to hire the best security for the best price. It is simply not happening. Cronyism is in full force to pay the most senior cops OT for their loyalty to the establishment. Thus they don't arrest establishment folks for minor traffic violations as they arrest the Napergate Man. It is called scratch my back and I will scratch yours!

Most people are against high taxes if they are avoidable. That is really why you 5 guys have no support on there threads.

You are supporting such things as avoidable OT and high taxes. No one is for these things except the misinformed and those delinquent lacking in common sense and reason. That is why they join the Napergate Movement and continue blogging with us.

I think the next election will be about high taxes and what is causing them. You guys should feel lucky that a guy like the Napergate Man has no interest in political office. A man like him who is anti-waste could easily win a council seat or even the Mayor's seat. If he joined a slate of Napergatians and had 5 votes this town would be fixed in no time.

You would only see police OT during emergencies such as a murder or a catastrophe. You would never see OT at a festival. He would never rob the taxpayers through a cultural fund and siphon it through some charity slush fund and have it end up in police OT.

The establishment should consider itself lucky that the Napergate Man has no political ambitions. But I believe his watchdog days are not over. I also believe his endorsement days are not over.

I think if we lay the grass roots for him, he will resurface. He is not going to miss a once in a life time opportunity to end establishment rule if we can make the next election close.

But no one person should have to carry so much weight as he did for 20 years fighting so many battles and leading all of them. No one should have to buy all that ink he bought. It is unusual that he had to buy all that ink. But the old Naperville Sun did not recognize the Napergatian Party so he did what he had to do.

I think Jim's Blog site finally recognizes us. I don't believe Ted's print edition recognizes us yet, so we still have our work cut out for us. But if there is a will, there is a way!!!

If you have plenty of time to waste, Ken, maybe you should volunteer security for these 2 Charity Events. Most people with time to waste do something productive in their life. This blog site will not get you a nice tombstone. Volunteering for those charities will get you a very nice tombstone and your name and reputation will live on long after you pass this earth to take your fate and destiny to wherever it may lead.

Ken,

You can lead a horse to water, but you can not make it drink. It also gets boring holding its head underwater and watching it squirm and thrash.

If someone wants to believe that the majority of all of the city taxes are paid for by residents, let them. They probably don't venture out from the city borders that much and thus, assume no one else does either which leads to the presumed 'fact' that others rarely leave their cities to come here and spend money.

Now I understand why many people say that many residents live in a bubble.

Okay, pull out the old napergatian calculators. You all claim there is no positive tax base in Naperville. If that is the case, why aren't the real estate taxes going up as much as they have in Chicago and Cook county? Why isn't Naperville continually close to bankruptcy like Chicago and Cook county?

If you read what you write, it doesn't make a bit of sense, dollar or otherwise.

By the way, the reason no one agrees with the group of five is that the napergatian minds are made up, and you refuse to consider any thoughts other than those firmly implanted in your mind. People with common sense just agree with us and move on, realizing that they would be wasting there time arguing with you. I have plenty of time to waste, so I foolishly keep trying to make the napergatians see the light.

Ernie and Ryan,

I totally agree with you. There is no way we have a positive sales tax base in this city especially compared to Aurorans.

We do spend more money in the Fox Valley Mall than they would ever spend in our town.

Why would they come to our tiny Riverwalk on a tiny stream. They have a huge Riverwalk with a deep river, floating casinos and big hotels.

This group of five has no sense of reality. I am glad no one is calling them the gang of five anymore. I think our points are made much better if we don't give them a reason or excuse to avoid directly responding to us.

It is no wonder not a single person has joined them in 6 months. People obviously see right through their bullsh&t.

Ken,

I think you are confused. I read all of Realtor Ryan's posts on all the threads. He clearly understands that property tax is only one component of the total tax that provides for the $380 million budget.

He mentioned that other taxes such as electric, water, telephone, cable, transfer, impact and stamp taxes are coming from residential and business taxpayers with the majority from residents since there are 25-50 homes to one or two businesses. Many of the homes in Naperville are now valued in the 2 million to 5 million range and contribute hugely to our tax base.

He understands 10%-25% of our sales tax is coming from out of towners or border towns. All he said was some Auroras do spend some money in downtown Naperville, but we probably spend more money at the Fox Valley Mall and Best Buy than they spend on our Riverwalk and Downtown. In lieu of the fact they have their own downtown, their own Riverwalk, their own restaurants and 2 floating casinos, it is more likely that we have a net negative impact on sales tax with Aurorans. That means it is more likely we are subsidizing their sales, than they are our sales tax. I tend to agree with Realtor Ryan and if nothing else the Fox Valley Mall would do it alone.

I really think he makes a lot of sense. We did lose that Fox Valley Mall to Aurora. Malls have great impacts on residential property bills because of the sales tax they raise that comes from many different suburbs as opposed to a Jewel that just somce from the locals or one suburb.

When I was shopping for a home many years ago in Oak Brook, I asked my realtor what the city portion of my tax bill was. He said it was 0. I asked how that could be. He stated since Oak Brook has got a small population combined with the huge Oak Brook Mall, the sales tax impact was so great there was no need for a City Property Tax. It was zilch. Mine was in the thousands when combining Naperville, Naperville Pension, Library, Park District and PD pension. And it got substantially worse this year make it necessary for me to speak out and hopefully rally my fellow citizens to put some clamps on City of Naperville Governemnt...especially the cronyism effect of my tax bills such as culture fund money being laundered into police OT in the name of charity. That went over all ethical standards for me. That would have been a great Napergate ad to bring the City to smell the coffee again before it results in the loss of there council seats.

So as Realtor Ryan stated when Naperville lost the Fox Valley Mall to Aurora, they suffered a serious financial blow. I don't know all the details but I heard from neighbors it was within City Officials grasp, but Aurora City Officials were a little sharper and snathced it from underneath them.

If we had gotten the Fox Valley Mall, Best Buy and a few other large businesses on Rt 59 to locate on our side of Rt.59 which was all farmland at the time, our property taxes would be significantly less.

As John Q. Public stated Joe is very stubborn evey when he is wrong. He seems to be in denial. He is computing all the taxes wrong. He has no grasp of how the property or overall taxes relate to police OT.

Mr. Public and Mr. Ryan are both doing it right and giving respective percentages that make sense. Mr. Ryan used his percentages to compare us to other governmental entities and he discovered our pension costs exceeded 10 times their percentage costs. I got my real estate tax bill and reviewed his computations using my lastest numbers for 2006 that showed up on the 2007 bill for review and comparison reasons. All Mr. Ryan's numbers were 100% accurate.

Try not to be like Joe. His stubborness will be his downfall. You seem like you may have some potential if you can get rid of that cult word from your vocabulary. Joe, honestly, seems hopeless!

June, Ryan laid out a fiction story, and you bought it. He has totally ignored the fact that real estate taxes pay only a small portion of the budget. He has falsely claimed that in his reality, all sales taxes are paid by Naperville citizens, using some bizarre equalization formula from his alternative reality. As far as I can tell, he used no hard numbers or facts, yet presented his guesses as such.

Joe, on the other hand, has explained his numbers, documented them from the city, yet you and your ilk refuse to accept them. And you wonder why I question your reading comprehension.

I believe you can be a felon in any profession except if you are a car dealer or a liquor license holder. Maybe a cop also can't be a felon but I am not sure on that one.

Realtor Ryan is a Commercial Realtor who can make 400,000 dollars on a $10,000,000 commercial deal. He will still end up with $100,000 if he has to split it 4 ways as is the worse case scenario in such a transaction.

Can you make that in a full year, Anonymous?

Are you maybe jealous of successful realtors?

For those of you confused why realtors are a dime a dozen, just look at them. No college is required and you can be a felon. Impressive, Im glad you are proud of selling what other people worked hard to own. Get a real job napergatian...

Realtor Ryan,

I have seen all your posts on all the threads yesterday. They were all great and very informative.

I am no longer confused as you pretty much laid it out in simple English and simple Math.

I certainly hope this Ken guy who is always talking about comprehesion skills can finally comprehend.

Joe, though is a different case. He is still trying to figure out how may .96 cents you need to get $3.15 million dollars.

If it helps Joe according to my Napergatian Calculator you need 3,281,250 contibutions of .96 cents to get $3.15 million. Good luck trying to find that many residents or households in Naperville, Joe!

Bloggers,

For those who are confused about how this police OT is funded please see my post on the Police OT post.

That way I don't also have to post it here, again.

Thanks!

Gary,

Joe has often stated he is not "city", and often leans toward the "Napergatian" viewpoint, so you can be sure he wasn't using the "City Calculator".

Despite attempts by several self-proclaimed Napergatian's to deceive readers with consistently false statements about my position, I don't pretend to speak for the city, and I also don't pretend to know all the in's and out's of how the police budget, overtime, and overtime reimbursement, etc. plays in to the actual math (not necessarily accountant's math) to determine the actual cost of police overtime on our real estate tax bills.

Either way, I support compensation for police protection and public safety.

By Maryann on May 1, 2008 2:24 PM

"... I am not sure if Mr. Rod Randall is being sarcastic or wants clarification..."

Maryann, the intent of my post was neither. Ken introduced his example that dealt with cost per average household ($40 million over 20 years at an annual cost of $76 per household). His use of the example itself was okay. But his logic was flawed as he tried to make a direct comparison between an amount being paid off over 20 years (at $76 per year) and an annual amount of $3.15 million that was being paid for in one year (at what someone calculated as $70 per year for a typical household). He did not annualize the $40 million expenditure so that it could be compared with the $3.15 million number that was an annual number. All I wanted him to do was to have him recognize that he needed to compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges.

Also, Ken then later said in referring to me "As I stated in the OT thread,Rod, your math is wrong." Now, the only "math" that I did in my post was to divide $40 million by 20 years to arrive at $2 million per year.

So, I do believe that my arithmetic was correct and that 40 divided by 20 is 2. Again, I did this so that the $40 million number could be annualized so that his example could be properly compared with the annual amount of $3.15 million (thus, apples to apples). It was Ken who introduced a per household number to support his position.

Ken also said "yet you conveniently forget to include (interest)". Ken didn't read my post very well as I said that the $76 annual amount also included a portion to cover interest, with the inference that a total of more than $40 million would be paid over 20 years.

Also, note I made no attempt to calculate myself a number that would be what the average household would pay to contribute toward the $3.15 million.

T.B. then went on to say "I don't know who is right here, but just taking a quick look I'd say your comparison is apples and oranges based on the tax rates of the city vs school district.
If you want to bolster your numbers further, please supply the tax rates in use for each government body."

To this I would say that when some one is trying to utilize the average cost to a household as it relates to the total expenditure (as Ken tried to do by introducing the example he cited from the Daily Herald), tax rates are not necessarily relevant. What is relevant would be total dollars. That is, should someone tell you that the tax rate for a governmental taxing body decreased, that does not necessarily mean that the total dollars one would pay would also decrease (as a sufficient increase in the base - the assessed value - could have increased to such an extent that the total tax dollars would increase. So, unless the base remains stable, discussion about tax rates is not necessarily relevant.

To finish my comments, please note the there is a different between cost and revenue. What something costs does not reflect how it is paid for. That is, the $70 per household number is probably a fairly good estimate of what the #3.15 million in overtime "cost" per household as this is a straight foward calculation of taking total expenditure and dividing it by the total households. On the other hand, how much each household is contributing toward the revenue side is calculated differently. But, this number is not just a direct reflection of the property tax bill as households contribute toward the revenue in a lot of different ways (e.g., sales taxes paid, utility taxes paid, etc.).

The overall discussion has leaned toward what some feel is too much overtime paid out. Thus, to me, the more relevant number to get one's attention is the cost side. That is, the $70 per household expended for the overtime gives a much better picture of the magnitude of the expenditure.

Maryann, you still cannot read and comprehend. Real estate taxes account for only 16% of the budget, as Joe has conclusively shown. The school referendums are paid for in whole by property taxes. To make your napergate math accurate, you would only use 16% of $3,167,800 divided by the total number of property tax payers to be accurate.

You also conveniently gloss over the fact that the moderator once again pointed out, the majority of the overtime is repaid, just not added back to the police budget.

As for the rest of your mindless drivel about the supposed conspiracy to arrest your hero, where is your proof? As usual, it is just mindless conjecture and supposition, not to mention hearsay. As your less than factual calculations show above, this is the hallmark of the naperville cult.

Maryann,
I loved all your posts and agree with everything you said.

Joes makes absolutely no sense. Ken does not know the difference between 1 and 20.

Need I say more.

Gary, I already posted with documentation how to figure how much of your real estate tax goes to police overtime. I'm very sorry if 3rd/4th grade fractional equivalent math formulas escape your comprehension.

Maryann, I only said 'at least'. I did not specify what types. I did not ask for types or distinctions, only time frame.

File your own FOIA with specificity and post what you find out.

As for the incident, I can only go by what Bob previously posted about the stop. If you were an eye witness, say so. Did you ask the officers what 'their plan' was or are you just guessing? I'm GUESSING you are doing the latter... GUESSING. If you found 'their plan' scribbled on a bar napkin after they left the scene, then scan it in and post a link to it. Further, police are under no obligation to come up and inform you that you are about to do something illegal. "Excuse me, Mr. Drug dealer.. you see, this person is an undercover officer and they are about to 'sell' you drugs and upon agreement of the transaction we will be arresting you, so don't do it".

Maryann,

I agree with you that there is nothing that the Napergate Man could have done to avoid his arrest.

It was planned and pre-determined.

They just simply can't make the Napergate Man a bully like they made DF. The Napergate Man has always been known as a passive resister in town.

Just remember how they kicked him out of City Hall when he was distributing Napergate V. They violated his rights in a public builidng he partially owned and he walked away from a confrontation.

He is a class act and was a class act that evening.

Unfortunately, I can not say the same about Sgt. Greg Bell.

Maryann,

Thanks for clarifying this mess for us. Your numbers do make sense.

You used the same method that the CPAs and Lawyers did for the school board.

I guess Joe wants us to believe he knows more than School Board officials.

You added interest and got almost the same exact number the school board had for police OT so I would think you are right and they both cost us about $76.

As somone said, Joe would have to be living in a $1000 dollar dog shed in the back yard to have taxes that low on his SPECIFIC REAL ESTATE TAX BILL as he likes to point out.

I can assure you mine is closer to the average and your numbers do make sense to me and jive with my Real Estate Tax Bill!

It is obvious to me that the Napergate Calculator is accurate while the City Calulator is rigged to hide overspending by city officials.

Host Ted,
Below is a cleaning up of my post that was rejected by Moderator Jim, yesterday morning, because I had implied our Joe may be another person. I removed all those parts and stuck with the facts.

Welcome back, Host Ted, and per your request I will make every attempt to keep it civil and avoid personal attacks. My last deleted post had nothing to do with personal attacks but purely about speculation that someone may be a certain person. I just want to insert that in so bloggers do not think I am sending you libel and profanity laced posts!

Thanks,

Maryann

====================================================================

By Joe on April 30, 2008 5:26 PM

Had the back and forth about the suspension not taken place, the attempt to tell the officer how to do his job (well, chief dial allows for discretion...blahblahblah) {that honks off many officers more than anything}, and not complying with the first request to be prepared to be cuffed not happen I would actually be about 95% of the way to your point of view... but.. it went down how it went down and there were certain trigger points during the process that caused it to take the course of action it did, IMO.

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Joe ,

Regarding the arrest of the Napergate Man it went down the way it went down because it was pre-planned. Nothing the Napergate did or did not do after they stopped him was going to effect how it went down...it was set in stone how it was going to go down on Chicago Ave. and they simply executed on their plan. Below are the flaws in the logic of which I only posted a paragraph to give bloggers a flavor or your NONSENSE.

1.You fail to point out he was very cooperative. His muscular friend Bob was ordered by the Napergate Man to never say a word and in fact never said a word. Is this not the kind of cooperation the officers like to see? Imagine a friend of 30 years never uttering a word on behalf of the Napergate Man despite witnessing this injustice. What better behavior than that Joe can you have that deserves discretion in the positive instead of in the negative?

2.The Napergate Man never resisted arrest. He never knew they were going to arrest him or for what. When they told him to turn around to be handcuffed, he asked if he could be given discretion to take his dog home. That is not rude behavior or unreasonable request. He simply showed he was an animal lover who cared about his dog Abby very much and did not want her TRAUMATIZED as did happen because of the unexpected and forced sudden separation.

3.Since they ran his plates much before the arrest, how he acted or did not act made no difference that fateful evening. They were planning to arrest him from the minute they saw him and discovered his license plate was suspended.

4.If they had no plans to arrest him, they would have told him not to drive the Hummer H2 as he got in it, right in their presnece on Chicago Ave. They chose not to tell him.

5. They did not tell him his license was suspended as he entered the H2 in their presence because they wanted to arrest him and jail him. It was pre-planned. Otherwise they would have given him the courtesy of notification and avoided the arrest and jailing of the fateful evening in the first place.

6. There is no doubt in my mind this was all payback for his Napergate political ads that slammed the Naperville Police Dept. over and over again for 2 decades including its wasteful spending of money and abuse during the Kangaroo Napergate Trials.

7. There was no way the Napergate Man could have acted, that would have avoided the arrest.

8. There is no amount of respect that the Napergate Man could have shown, that would have avoided the arrest.

9. The Napergate Man should not have to ask for the proper discretion. He only asked for it after he knew he was not getting it with certainty. Only after they asked him to turn around to be handcuffed. Basically he was not getting it whether he asked, did not ask, was polite, impolite, respectful or disrespectful. That really seems quite obvious to me.

10. I have never seen a person who was handcuffed, suddenly released. In the real world you don't handcuff for fun and then discuss the release of the handcuffs...maybe you discuss loosening but not the release of the handcuffs while on the street or parking lot.

11. Handcuffing was done because their plan was always to jail him. They did not handcuff him for safety reasons so they could discuss discretion with him while he was handcuffed. Discretion is given, asked for or discussed before handcuffing...not after. Thus, once they handcuffed him they had already determined he would be jailed.

12. 4 police officers who were armed had no reason to be fearful of 2 civilians who were unarmed with a small dog. They had run his plate at least an hour before his arrest so they knew who they were arresting and they knew he was not violent.

All you said, Mr. Joe makes no sense. .

And since you are who we supsect you are, you probably know this was a case in which discretion was used to discriminate instead of making a situation more bearable!!!

Plus, Joe, it is interesting that you found out that 32 or 36 other plates were run during that same time period but none were indicated to be for a parked vehicle. Apparently they were all for a moving vehicle committing a moving violation in which probable cause was there for a stop.

What probable cause was there to run the Napergate Man's H2 to the exclusion of any other parked vehicle? You did an investigation Joe, and did not report one other parked vehicle on Chicago Ave. which had it plates run. All you reported was 32-36 vehicles that were likely stopped for probable cause. I wonder how you get all this information, Joe! I guess we can speculate but we are not allowed to say who we think you are. Most people can make a good guess and figure out who you may be....especially because of you unwavering passion that blinds you to any improprieties at the NPD.

Host Ted,
The "By Maryann on May 1, 2008 2:24 PM" you put up was my rough draft that my lap sent to you without my permission...lap tops can be funny.

Below was my final version. You may delelte my 2:24 pm version or keep it. It was just not finalized but relatively accurate.

By Maryann on May 1, 2008 2:12 PM
NAPERGATE CALCULATOR IS ACCURATE:

If one was to assume that this $40,000,000 School Bond is being financed at 5% for these 20 years, the cost of interest based on the Napergate Calculator is exactly $23,356,000 dollars over the entire 20 years.

Thus the total cost would be $40,000,000 plus $23,356,000 = $63,356,000. Annualized we get a cost of $3,167,800 per year for both principal and interest.

According to Ken quoting the Daily Herald:

"A $40 million take hike would cost the owner of a $331,000 home roughly $76 a year in additional property taxes for each of the next 20 years."

Since we have determined that the annual cost of the school bond of $3,167,000 is almost identical to the POLICE OVERTIME of $3,150,000, one can reasonbly conclude that the cost to the owner of a $331,000 dollar home in Naperville is also paying a few pennies shy of $76 for police overtime.

I guess Joe and Ken did not only sit in the back of the math class but were truant from all math classes.

The Napergatians were saying from day one it is approimately $70 dollars. Using the Napergate Calculator at a 5% interest rate it is $76 dollars. Maybe the Napergatians were plugging in Ken's interest rate of 4% that he proposed as the interest for the 20,000,000 finaning for the parking decks. If they were using 4%, the Napergatian Calculator will bring us very close to the $70 dollars they were stating form Day One.(I did not run the 4% thru the Napergate Calculator which I am estimating, but the 5% was an exact number that was run thru the NC)

Bottom line it was proven the Napergatian Calculators are very accurate and the Napergatians did not sit in the back of the math class. They sat in front and paid attention.

Anybody who thought the Naperville Sun would make a big stink out of .96 cents as Joe suspected is out of their minds.

What Joe and these 4 other city supporters don't seem to understand is that if you add the Police Overtime with the School Bond, you suddenly have $152 dollars. Add regular police waste on regular time for another possible $6,300,000 and you suddenly have $302 dollars per household. It all adds up quickly and you need to nip each item in the butt with no exceptions as the Napergate Man did.

He attacked every expenditure in City Hall and when he added them all up, he saw what we are beginning to see. The result was he was able to get people motivated to go the polls and oust 4 estbalishment council members rather easily in 1999 as he must have realized voters do care about their hard earned money.

We have to follow in his approach and explain to the taxpayers what all these excesses are costing us taxpayers in these inflationary and recessionary economic times.

Once we get through to the taxpayers, we will impact the next elections. The only thing we are lacking is those very powerful and convincing Napergate ads.

This is where we need help from the Naperville Sun! While these blogs are great and educational, they do not have the impact of the Napergate ads.

We have 500 Napergatians on here, 5 regular city supporters and maybe 50-100 other neutrals who are blogging. That is 555-605 residents not counting the District 204 residents who live in their own world. We can not impact the next election like the Napergate Man did who reached 22,000 subscribers and 50,000 readers in a small town without the help of the print edition of the Naperville Sun.

The print edition of the Naperville Sun can enable us to reach 16,200 subscribers and 40,000 plus readers. That is a lot more than 555-605 people of whom 505 have already made up their minds.

I think we have got the bus started as the Naperville Sun asked us to do many months ago. It is even rolling! The Naperville Sun needs to ram the bus through City Hall as the Napergate Man rammed the bus through City Hall.

City Officials are very stubborn. If you don't hit them hard and long, they don't get it. They are like the 5 city supporters(Joe, Ken, SWT, RJ and T.B.). No matter how hard you hit them, no matter what facts you show them, no matter what documents you present to them, they refuse to open their minds and say they are wrong.

Does anyone expect Joe and Ken to come on and admit they flunked math? Can you believe their calculation of .96 cents? I guess by deceiving the homeowners, they were trying to get their support on this police OT issue.

These were tactics tried in the Napergate Days that simply did not work. The Napergate Man loved exposing them. I am sure the 500 Napergatians will get the job done just as the Napergate Man did....we simply need an assist from the Naperville Sun since we don't have the money to buy all that INK!!!

Thanks in advance to Sun Officials for any INK they can supply for a good cause!!!

Naperville home sales prices posted a solid 9.77 percent gain over the past two years, despite a national and regional slump in prices. In April 2006, the average sales price was $471,724 and in April, 2008, the average was $517,791. And, currently the city has just under an eight-month supply of homes, compared to the regional average of 11. So, don't believe all that doom and gloom...it's probably coming from a different part of the country. Tell us what you think.

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The numbers above posted by Sun Officials are more recent than the numbers posted by the School Board during that $40,000,000 dollar tax referendum.

In that referendum it was determined that the owner of an average home of $331,000 had to pay $76 dollars for the School Bond that was costing $3,167,000 per year using a Napergatian Calculator based on a $40,000,000 financed at 5% over a term of 20 years.

If the average house is now $517,791 or 56.43% more than it was then when it was only $331,000, the new and latest average would indicate each one of us is paying on the average...$76 X 1.5643 = $119 dollars in POLICE OVERTIME per HOUSEHOLD.

Of course I am using Naperville Sun official numbers and Joe's theory that the more a house costs the more you pay. Assuming both are right and accurate, the real cost of POLICE OVERTIME based on their numbers and theories is $119 per household.

How Joe comes up with .96 cents per household trying to confuse us, is beyond me!

Maybe he can try to explain. He obviously does not understand his own real estate tax bill but wants us to bring ours to the Naperville Sun so he can meet us to reimburse us for police overtime.

If you have $119 dollars ready to give me, Joe, let me know what time you would like to meet me at Sun Headquarters as long as it is OK with Mr. Lynch! I suspect all 500 Napergatians would be willing to meet you that are blogging. Do you have $59,500 ready to dispurse from your retirment funds?

What about if all 10,000 Napergatians who vote in the elections want to meet you? Do you have $1,190,000 to reimburse all of us? We would love to meet you, Joe, to get reimbursed for this Police Overtime. Just give us time and place and we will all be there. But no one is going to spend $3.69 cents on a gallon of gas to pick up your lousy .96 cents, Joe! You really need to get real on these blog sites and stop playing games.

Napergatians are serious about reducing our taxes...what are you serious about Joe besides your rises and playing mind games on these blogs!

RESPONSE from Naperville Sun editors:

The Sun report told how the police chief explained that a large portion of overtime costs are due to working Naperville's many festivals and charity events, and that organizations pay the city to cover those costs. This post ignores that aspect of the story. It's not taxpayers paying for that significant portion of police overtime costs, it's the charitable organizations.

Moderator Jim,
I would like to post my calculations here since it took me a while to learn how to use the Napergate Calculator. I am not sure if Mr. Rod Randall is being sarcastic or wants clarification. I hope this clarifies to him that Joe is in left field and Ken is in right field. I think they were playing baseball during math and still failed to make the pros. So I guess they failed in all their endeavors and now are even failing as bloggers. I guess once a failure always a failure!

NAPERGATE CALCULATOR IS ACCURATE:

If one was to assume that this School Bond is being financed at 5% for these 20 years, the cost of interest based on the Napergate Calculator is exactly $23,356,000 dollars over the entire 20 years.

Thus the total cost would be $40,000,000 plus $23,356,000 = $63,356,000. Annualized we get a cost of $3,167,800 per year for both principal and interest.

According to Ken quoting the Daily Herald:

"A $40 million take hike would cost the owner of a $331,000 home roughly $76 a year in additional property taxes for each of the next 20 years."

Since we have determined that the annual cost of the school bond of $3,167,000 is almost identical to the POLICE OVERTIME of $3,150,000,
one can reasonbly conclude that the cost to the owner of a $331,000 dollar home in Naperville is also paying a few pennies shy of $76 forf police overtime.

I guess Joe and Ken did not only sit in the back of the math class but were truant from all math classes.

The Napergatians were saying from day one it is approimately $70 dollars. Using the Napergate Calculator at a 5% interest it is $76 dollars. Maybe the Napergatians were plugging in Ken's interest rate of 4% that he proposed as the interest for the 20,000,000 finaning for the parking decks. If they were using 4%, the Napergatian calculator will bring us very close to the $70 dollars they were stating form Day One.

Bottom line it was proven the Napergatian Calculators are very accurate and the Napergatians did not sit in the back of the math class. They sat in front and paid attention.

Anybody who thought the Naperville Sun would make a big stink out of .96 cents as Joe suspected is out of their minds.

What Joe and these 4 other city supports don't understand that if you add the Police Overtime with the School Bond, you suddenly have $152 dollars. Add regular police waste on regular time for a possible $6,300,000 and you suddenly have $302 dollars. It all adds up quickly and you need to nip each item in the butt as the Napergate Man did.

He attacked every expenditure in City Hall and when he added them all up, he saw what we are beginning to see. The result was he was able to get people motivated to go the polls and oust 4 estbalishment council members rather easily as he knew voters do care about their hard earned money.

We have to follow in his approach and explain to the taxpayers what all these excesses are costing us taxpayers in these inflationary and rececessionary economic times.

Once we get through to the taxpayers, we will impact the next elections. The only thing we are lacking is those very powerful and convincing Napergate ads.

This is where we need help from the Naperville Sun! While these blogs are great and educational, they do not have the impact of the Napergate ads.

We have 500 Napergatians on here, 5 regular city supporters and maybe 20 other neutrals who are blogging. That is 525 residents not counting the District 204 residents who live in their own world. We can not impact the next election like the Napergate Man did who reached 22,000 subscribers and 50,000 readers in a small town without the help of the print edition of the Naperville Sun.

The print edition of the Naperville Sun can enable us to reach 16,200 subscribers and 40,000 plus readers. That is a lot more than 525 people of which 505 have already made their mind.

I think we have got the bus started as the Naperville Sun asked us to do many months ago. The Naperville Sun needs to ram the bus through City Hall as the Napergate Man rammed the bus through City Hall.

City Officials are very stubborn. If you don't hit the hard and long, they don't get it. They are like the 5 city supporters(Joe, Ken, SWT, RJ and T.B.). No matter how hard you hit them, no matter what facts you show them, no matter what document you present, they refuse to open their minds and say they are wrong.

Does anyone expect Joe and Ken to come on and admit they flunked math? Can you believe their calculation of .96 cents? I guess by deceiving the homeowners, they were trying to get their support on this OT issue.

These were tactics tried in the Napergate Days that simply did not work. The Napergate Man loved exposing them. I am sure the 500 Napergatians will get the job done just as the Napergate Man did....we simply need an assist from the Naperville Sun since we don't have the money to buy all that INK!!!

RESPONSE from Naperville Sun editors: The Sun report told how the police chief explained that a large portion of overtime costs are due to working Naperville's many festivals and charity events, and that organizations pay the city to cover those costs. This post ignores that aspect of the story. It's not taxpayers paying for that significant portion of police overtime costs, it's the charitable organizations.

NOTE to Naperville Sun editors:

I would have preferred for Christopher's post to remain so everyone could see his true character.

T.B.

RESPONSE from Naperville Sun editors: OK, we'll republish.

As I stated in the OT thread,Rod, your math is wrong. It is funny that the cult will take interest on the parking garages (some stating it is as much as 120% of the cost of the bond issue), yet you conveniently forget to include that in your napergatian math.

Try to read and comprehend Joe's post about four posts before yours. I know you want to ignore and deny the facts, yet they are there for you to see.

By Naperville Sun editors on May 1, 2008 6:58 AM
Mary Anne, we are unable to post your recent comments because you accuse another commenter of being someone without having any proof that the commenter is that person.

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Moderator Jim

What is confusing is you let other bloggers on the OT thread speculate that Joe was this individual. I was just repeating what I read on the OT thread but put it here since I was discussing the arrest of the Napergate Man which you stated must be on this thread.

Why do different threads have different standards?

I feel there is a little bit of a double standard applied on Napergatians.

Many people have speculated who they think other people are?

For example, Joe specualted that Diana was the Napergate Man's daughter ignoring all her medical school studies, skipping all her classes, blowing $50,000 in the cost of medical school per year and blogging day and night from somewhere in Missouri about a .40 cent toll she did not pay when she was 16. For two weeks straight!!! How ludicrous was that speculation! Yet, you let that stay in! I can come up with many other examples!

Anyway, I will try to find that letter you deleted and clean it up. I am not here to disobey your rules. I just had a hunch as others did that Joe was this certain individual.

Joe had reasoned because Tollway Diana was so passionate during her 2 week vacation when she got addicted to blogging or was tyring to hold the fort until the rest of us found the buried site, she must be the Napergate Man's daughter. I guess he was speculating.

I was also speculating because Joe seems 100 times more passionate than Diana and has gone on for 14 months non-stop with his defense and admiration of anything the NPD does. No one really is that passionate for no reason...not to the enormous levels Joe is...almost unheard of!!!

Diana got overly passionate because she was by herself taking on 5 bullies and worked hard for 2.5 weeks to get a document that could not even be published on the Main Page...add insult to injury the Napergate Thread fell off the Main Page as she uncovered her document and she could not even get it published in the Archived Thread for only 6 people to see.

I would have gotten passionate, upset and also emotional if that happened to me especially after the City Supporters pressured her for proof which she finally got. I think Diana did a wonderful job dealing with her very rough situation.

I still don't understand why the Moderator would not link the archived thread to the Napergate Link for 2 weeks. Maybe it was suppose to be a cooling down process for Napergatians...not sure!

But realistically, bloggers who don't live on this thread are not going to play around till they find an archived thread. Most of us are not retired like Joe and Ken and take advantage when we have a day off or some time in the evening. Of course they could have cushy jobs that allow bloggin on company time. I can tell you if I was ever caught bloggin on company time, I would be shown the exit door immediately and permanently.

That achive link on the bottom of the Main Page was a new feature that came when the Naperville Sun changed formats. If one had looked there before and not seen it why would they look there again.

I think the 5 regulars were on the thread when it was archived so had a chance to stay with it and follow it along with Diana who was also on it.

Like everyone else, I thought Moderator Jim had it with the Napergatians and garbaged/deleted the thread permanently...so I did not bother looking.

I am working on the Napergate Calculator and I believe it is very accurate. Hopefully, I will publish some proof later today!

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PS. If this thread was not hidden from Napergatians for 2 weeks we would have a 1200-1500 posts on this thread by now. So I think the Naperville Sun numbers got hurt just as much as the Napergatians who could not blog for 2 weeks as they were prohibited from using other threads to discuss anything Napergate!

Anyway things seem to be improving immensely for the Napergatians, so I want to thank both Moderator Jim and Host Ted for their renewed efforts which I believe have been VERY FAIR!!!

RESPONSE from Naperville Sun editors:

We have always tried to keep the discussion civil here, and one of the rules all along has been no personal attacks. Sometimes some remarks have slipped by, but we've always tried to enforce the policy fairly and without prejudice.

Rod R -

I don't know who is right here, but just taking a quick look I'd say your comparison is apples and oranges based on the tax rates of the city vs school district.

If you want to bolster your numbers further, please supply the tax rates in use for each government body.

Thanks,

T.B.

If we take the $70 per household number and work it backwards according to the city budget, that means people are paying:

$70 / .008 / .16 = $54,687.50 in City taxes per year.

Really? Someone here is actually paying that much per year?

How many sq. feet is that house?

Post by By Ken on April 30, 2008 11:21 PM:

"I posted this in the overtime thread, but feel it bears repeating here. It is an easy example showing how incorrect the napergatian math is:

A $40 million take hike would cost the owner of a $331,000 home roughly $76 a year in additional property taxes for each of the next 20 years.

This information can be found in this article about the plans for the Central renovation:http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=71761

If a $40 million tax hike is around $76 per household, how can $3.15 million be the same. This shows that Joe's math, based on facts and research, is pretty close as compared to the suppositional math used by the napergatians."

Now, $40 million divided by 20 is $2 million per year. Thus you are saying that $76 per year (which also covers interest cost) is what the average taxpayer, with a $331,000 home, pays to cover $2 million annually.

And, some are claiming that an average taxpayer will pay $70 per year to cover the $3.15 million of annual overtime costs.

Which arithmetic calculation is wrong?

Christopher—

I won't address the tone of your post to me on the OT thread as I’ve done that already. But I will address your two posts here.

I have never said that the Napergate Man was irresponsible and I have never attacked him. Perhaps you have confused me with others? I have stated that I doubt he knew his license was suspended at the time of his arrest. That does not mean that the NPD did anything but act in good faith based on the info they had. Yes, the system failed him, but I haven’t seen anything which shows that the NPD failed him. That’s a big difference.

In exactly what manner did I act like I was “a God or Dictator “? Who’s being more dictatorial, the person making a reasonable argument or the one throwing around insults and saying people who dare to disagree are idiots? Look in the mirror, my friend.

“The fact that he [TB] had to promote his MBA on this blog site was distasteful and disgusting.” Maybe you feel that way, however, if you were reading way back when it was brought up it was because I was challenged by what some would call one of the cult and accused of being uneducated. I am not promoting it and mentioned it once to one blogger. I think it is Maryann and the like who like to bring it up repeatedly, like any type of distinction is some kind of insult.

“You win points here if you know how to debate.” Yes, I agree. However, you have to have both reading comprehension and an open mind. If you don’t understand what you’re reading, ask for clarification before making an unjustified attack. If you’re too closed to consider alternatives and label those who disagree with you as idiots then you’re not really debating, are you?

You think I dance around issues? Why? Because I support the fest OT but want the fests (and not taxpayers) to pay for the protection? How is that dancing? It’s recognition that the fests should have police security, there will be OT for this security, but that the fests should pay for the OT they caused. No dance, just plain and simple logic which appears to be lost on you.

Lastly, “I have no respect for T.B.” Trust me, the feeling is mutual.

T.B.

NOTE from Naperville Sun editors:

The Christopher post was unpublished because it contained repeated use of derogatory and demeaning language that we feel constituted a personal attack.

Mary Anne, we are unable to post your recent comments because you accuse another commenter of being someone without having any proof that the commenter is that person.

That's funny Christopher. You say everyone should try to be polite and civil after you attack me and T.B. By the way, the points Joe made about the napergate man's arrest have been made by him and a few others here numerous times. I had hope you actually understood the facts until you went into the wild supposition mode of court costs, Japanese justice, etc. Think of how much you could learn if you actually read a whole post instead of skimming it. You would not have to make lame excuses like "Since both your names start with "Ke" when you skim" instead of admitting your lack of reading comprehension. Hopefully you can add reading and understanding a post to your remain polite and civil resolution list.

I posted this in the overtime thread, but feel it bears repeating here. It is an easy example showing how incorrect the napergatian math is:

A $40 million take hike would cost the owner of a $331,000 home roughly $76 a year in additional property taxes for each of the next 20 years.

This information can be found in this article about the plans for the Central renovation:http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=71761

If a $40 million tax hike is around $76 per household, how can $3.15 million be the same. This shows that Joe's math, based on facts and research, is pretty close as compared to the suppositional math used by the napergatians.

Becky, Christopher, Vanessa and everyone else,

Everyone who believe in the $70 per household phoney math for police overtime is overlooking and not accounting for some very simple things:

Sales tax alone brings into the city budget almost 4 times the amount of revenue that property taxes do (the households)

That HUGE burden is saddled by more than just the Naperville residents.

The 'average' math fails to take this VERY LARGE CHUNK that has a significant portion paid by NON RESIDENTS into account.

The Utility tax too brings in almost DOUBLE what property taxes do. That tax hits the LARGE VOLUME USERS harder than the home owner because it is USAGE BASED and everyone knows businesses use more utilities than a single family home does.

And again, we can show that license and permit fees, fines etc add up to almost 60% of the property tax revenue.. again not spread across your average homeowner unless they are building or getting tickets.

This is why I am using the actual city budget and the actual tax rates and percentages to figure my fair share.

If you actually tried it too with your tax bill, you would see that the amount is not anywhere near as high as you believe it is.

Because of these GROSSLY overlooked funding sources that completely overshadow and outnumber property taxes and the fact that you did not even account for them in your 'average cost per household' mathematical exercise, forgive me if I also disbelieve what you say about how you can easily trim the fat off police overtime.

Try getting the funding math right before you work on the expense side. Then, you might have SOME credibility when it comes to 'cost to taxpayer' discussions.

Christopher,

Ok, let's talk about 'how' it was handled. I will preface this with the fact that this is my opinion and observations over the years with watching countless people being arrested; some handling the process very well, others not so well. In almost every instance it is the suspect that actually dictates HOW it will go down based on their attitude and actions or lack of.

During an arrest there are 'roles' to play. There is a 'process' to follow.

Not doing exactly what an officer tells you, when that command is a lawful command, is asking for trouble. You are in uncharted territory at this point and you can never be certain how your actions or lack of will be perceived. If someone is told to put their hands behind their back, DO IT. Don't argue, don't turn away, don't walk away.. simply comply. AFTER you are in cuffs, you are now deemed a suspect who is less dangerous. Officers understand everyone has the potential to do bad things. Whether someone personally would do bad things you never know unless you actually know the person. Putting someone in cuffs takes that element of danger and unknown away from the scene for the officer to where they can actually listen to you better without having to keep a watchful eye on you and your hands (possibly going for a weapon) or anyone else on scene that is part of the situation. Once they (the officer) feels comfortable with the situation, they can be more reasonable to talk to than you might think. Most people make the mistake of trying to do the talking BEFORE that step or in an attempt to AVOID that part of the process. Don't do it before.. talk AFTER that step when the officer will be more able (for situational safety's sake) to listen to what you have to say... but do it respectfully and always make them feel like they are in charge... yes, placate their ego if you have to but don't be sarcastic about it.

I think (based on Bob's story of how it happened that night) that the NGM would have had a much different encounter if he would have played the role of letting the officer know they were in charge of the situation entirely and complied immediately with any and all instructions. Instead, according to Bob, there was verbal back and forth about the suspension and how it was wrong, etc... I have seen that arguing make things go worse because the street is not the courtroom and some officers may interpret that as resisting arrest especially if they asked you to put your hands behind your back for cuffing and you do not comply.

Had the back and forth about the suspension not taken place, the attempt to tell the officer how to do his job (well, chief dial allows for discretion...blahblahblah) {that honks off many officers more than anything}, and not complying with the first request to be prepared to be cuffed not happen I would actually be about 95% of the way to your point of view... but.. it went down how it went down and there were certain trigger points during the process that caused it to take the course of action it did, IMO.

Fortunately the officer wasn't a *ahem* and did not call animal control to impound Abbey for the duration of the arrest (or longer if they didn't work weekends and were not able to let the dog out at 4-6am with its owner). We can find a silver lining there, can't we?

...and no, as stated a number of times I'm not affiliated w/ any law enforcement agency or group, so repeating the FOP line is just going to make me tune you out.

Take this with whatever grain of salt you wish..

Christopher,

I agree with most of what you have said except for your praise of this character Joe.

Don't be fooled by him! He can fool you for a minute but his true colors come out the next day.

He is not a nice guy. He likes wasting taxpayer money.

The guys want us to pay 3.15 million in police overtime and claims it is only costing the average taxpayer household .96 cents.

I suspect Joe knows that is not true and is lying.

Please don't believe a word this guy says.

I don't think he knows how to tell the truth.

That guy could swear on a stack of Bibles 5 feet high and you could not believe a word he says.

You could put him in a court room and have him testify under oath and I would not beleive a word he says.

This Joe Fella interprets the English Language in a different manner than defined in Webster's Dictionary!

He is really tricky!

I say to all bloggers, Beware of Joe!

Joe,
I don't think anyone is going to attack you because of your last 2 posts. You are being very reasonable especially in your first post.

Even if the police had to arrest because as we suspect it was a Tollway Error, I think my only dispute with you now is how it was handled.

I think he should have been able to turn himself in voluntarily for something so minor.

In some of your prior posts you implied he could be a dangerous driver but I really don't think paying tolls has anything to do with driving.

I think if the NPD just told him to come back at his convenience within the next 12 hours for booking and fingerprinting, this would have never been an issue.

As many said at some point if they did not know who he was, they had to have found out who he was at some point in the 4 hour process. They had to know he has liquor licenses in town. The police have to approve every licensee every single year during the renewal process. They knew from his address he owned a home in Naperville. They may or may not have known if he owned a shopping center. Thus the flight risk bordered 0!

Bail is to make sure one does not flee and shows up in court. There was no chance he was fleeing and they set a bond of a 1000 bucks for him. Most people are released on personal recognizance on such petty matters. So one has to wonder why they demanded a cash bond from him.

And no one seems to understand why he was held from 215am till 6am. I guess there are many witnesses at Dunkin Donuts who know what time he was released besides Bob. There appears to have been a shift change doubling the number of emplyees who saw Bob with his dog Abby.

That 4am release time on the police report disturbs me just a little. Sometimes agencies want to soften the blow of a minor incident but end up blowing it up with something as insignificant as changing the time on a police report. I hope that is not what happened, but I have suspicians that may have happened.

While most police are decent and honest, many police officers are known to embellish reports to obtain the results they want. Any defense attorney who was a former prosecutor will tell you that many police officers embellish. Of course these defense attorneys are all hyprocits since they never complained until they ceased being prosecutors and became defense attorneys.

It really shows you our system of justice is broken from both sides. I once read that in Japan they have one attorney per 10,000 citizens. In America, I think I read we have one for every 300-500 citizens. That should tell you something.

I have a day off today and was reading in the Sun that a Judge who was asked to speed up the school district 204 case said he could not because he said he had cases from 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006 that he has yet to attend to.

Can you imagine that, Joe? Besides the Toll being backed up 5 years so is Dupage County. By the time a 2003 case makes it to the Dupage Judge and to all its appeals, it will be 10 years. Something is wrong with our system of justice.

We are having cases lasting 10 years and we are throwing .40 cent toll violations into Dupage to make the load of cases even worse. How crazy? This case should have been settled civily. I bet 99.99% of the people would pay up if notified of a Toll Violation by certified mail.

So why are we saddling a system that is so backlogged with more petty court cases that should be handled outside the system. Have you ever tried to go to Dupage Court in the morning. The line to get thru security is a half an hour after spending 15 minutes looking for a parking spot.

We should be trying to make the courts less busy and not more busy with petty toll and/or emission violations.

But I think our system of justice grew into this mess. No one is thinking out of the box to try to bring reason back to our court system.

We may have to invite the Japanese to teach us a lesson or 2 in how they run their country with one attorney per 10,000. I read they had no backlogs and most of their cases get ruled on in less than 6 months.

People are people and will always have minor disputes. But the Japanese don't blow everything up out of proportion. I can not imagine a Japanese Court giving the City of Naperville 9 continuances for the case of a bottle of Korbel Champagne used in a Sting Operation. I am not sure but I bet they expect both parties to be ready to proceed at the scheduled court date, no ifs, buts, or maybes.

All these continuances, that are issued routinely in Dupage Court, are probably causing this huge back log and chaos.

Anyway, Joe, we agree on most issues and I guess we can agree to disagree on the remaining issues. It was good chatting with you. I will be taking the rest of the day off to do some house chores that I am a little behind on.

I hope everyone can keep this debate civil like Joe and I did.

I know I went off on T.B. on another thread but unlike Joe, he seems completely unreasonable. He does not know what he wants. He ticked me off because he does not want to consider alternatives to police OT at the festivals. He stated the OT was fine like he was a God or Dictator and we need to accept them even though there are many cheaper alternatives.

While I disagree with Joe, I respect him, because he speaks straight and honestly. T.B. seems like a lousy politician trying to be a smartalic. The fact that he had to promote his MBA on this blog site was distasteful and disgusting.

You win points here if you know how to debate. Not because you may have an MBA. Joe, has become a very good debater since those Ameena days. He tells it as it is without slicing or dicing. He stands up for what he believes in his heart even though others may all believe he is wrong.

I believe Joe is mostly wrong except for the latest 2 blogs, but I respect him, because he believes in his convictions and positions. He also in my opinion does not lie! In the past he added salt and pepper but he never lied! He made mistakes but he did not lie. He even admitted some of his mistakes. I think Joe is close to a class act. Napergatians have to understand he is entitled to his differeing opinions whether they are wrong or right. He does defend his postions as well as can be defended even when they make little or no sense!

I have no respect for T.B. because he reminds me of Hillary Clinton dancing around every issue. By the way, I think Hillary is a phony politician. I hope no one votes for her! Sorry to change the subject but I dislike that lady with passion. She don't care about anyone but herself. Joe at least does care about the NPD from the bottom of his heart...so he does care about someone other than himself unlike Hillary who only cares about herself...that lady is a selfish bi*ch!

Is Joe possibly the head of the Fraternal Order of Police. He could be since he has so much passion. But even if he is, does he not have a right to defend them. That is his duty! Our duty is prove him wrong with facts. I believe we can and we are! Maybe one day he will help us change the NPD if we convince him they could be more frugal with our tax dollars. And if he is the President of the FOP he will have the power to do it. I am hoping he is since we can at least communicate with him and persuade him to change. He just may see the light at the end of the tunned and change. One never knows! We have to respect him and just keep trying to change him in a civil manner with facts as he does respect civil debate as we do!

Thanks to the Moderator for allowing me to blog all day today! And thanks to Joe also for keeping it all polite and civil!!!

Christopher,

I appreciate the well thought out post. There are a couple of things I wish to point out because of the legal delineation that exists between the agencies, the process and what transpired.

First, I believe we all agree that the Tollway Authority has, does, and continues and probably will continue to make mistakes.

Second, the NGM was not arrested because he failed to pay tolls. He was arrested for driving with a suspended license. The act alone is arrestable and it does not matter WHY it was suspended. This is where the delineation and process comes into play. The tollway authority, it seems, messed up big time in suspending prematurely (I am accepting the time line as fact even without true evidence being posted here, but I am conceding the point just to get beyond the point). At that moment, the 'beef' is with the tollway authority for filing for a license suspension that was unjust. It is not the NPDs job to be the judge of whether it is a 'just' suspension or not. For them and their part of the 'process' their job is to arrest anyone caught driving with a suspended license. They did just that.

It's unfortunate that it turns out it should not have been suspended in the first place, but it is what it is. They do not have the ability at 2am to have a tollway authority hearing on the street to determine if the suspension is just or not. They are also not to just take anyone's word for it because everyone and their brother would be saying every bad mark on their record is in error and they should be let go. I actually feel bad that the NGM was a victim of circumstances but I do not believe it was a 'conspiracy' as some say to 'get him'. It just was what it was; an unfortunate error on the part of the tollway authority that set in motion the conditions that led to his arrest.

The only 'blame' the NGM has to bare in this is that he had a vehicle that he was not the driver of in his name. Legally, because of that documentation, he is the one that bares the brunt of any legal action taken against that vehicle (right or wrong) by the tollway authority for any violations that were committed by any driver of that vehicle through the tollgates. That's just the way the 'process' functions.

People tried to argue that the process should have been circumvented for this gentleman; and I can appreciate that because it turned out to be in error and the 'fault' of someone else who went through the gates without truing it up later or informing him of the incidents back when they happened. I honestly believe that had someone informed him of the missed tolls back then that he would have made an effort to 'make it right' back when it all happened each time.

To hold the 16yr old directly responsible like you suggest would have required him to put the van in her name. Nothing prevented that except for maybe the desire to pay cheaper insurance rates by keeping it in his name. Nothing wrong with that because parents do that all the time. I have my son's car in my name for that very same reason as he is 16 also. He does have an Ipass though, even though he does not use the tollway yet but I know he eventually will have a need at some point. Likewise, the plate on his car is registered to a transponder so even if there is a failure on the tollway, they will deduct the proper account and not issue a violation or start the suspension clock. It's a safeguard I had to take upon myself to ensure that situation is guarded against.

The 'due process' of the tollway authority comes from Springfield and legislation. Chief Dial would be wasting his breath and I am sure many people would feel that him spending his on the clock time lobbying the state legislatures would not be a good use of his salary drawn from the City of Naperville.

Again, I appreciate this more civil discussion of the issues and points without all of the name calling that has been so prevalent on here in the past. Thank you.

By Joe on April 30, 2008 8:47 AM

This is redlight cameras to the next level and it gets those that rightfully OWE money for driving while having either suspended in a FAIR and EQUAL manner without any such inclination of DISCRIMINATION or ABUSE OF DISCRETION.

1) Ensures that discrimination/abuse of discretion never happens again. Let the vans take care of running plates and 1-2 officers can (as part of their regular duty) validate and send the offenders their citations. No need for arrest, no need for handcuffs, no need for poor dogs being separated from their owners.

___________________________________________________________________

Joe,

Your suggestion is very reasonable and I am sure you will get 100% approval from the Napergatians. They are not above the law. They just want to be treated fairly and equally.

I think your suggestions fix everything. What happenened to the Napergate Man is just very bad government all around...not just the NPD. Everything seemed to be in reversal to ones rights.

He should have been issued a citation and allowed to defend himself in court before his license was suspended, before he was arrested, before he was jailed. I think they fell so far behind they started doing law and order in REVERSE.

Before they fell so far behind, I missed a few tolls like most people. Simply being in the wrong lane without change before they posted the signs saying where you can call in to pay your .40 cents.

I received my notice in 2002 for 4 2001 violation and was actually given a hearing at the Toll Authority Headquarters in Downers Grove. The room was overflowing. I tried to explain I was caught without change in the wrong lane and one time even put a dollar in. A very tough black female Judge who was in charge that day just said, you are guilty and told me where to go to pay my $81.60. Everyone was pretty much found guilty and told where to go pay. But we had a chance to a hearing and to pay before being arrested.

I think when they fell behind in with millions of violations with a 4 or 5 year back log, they snapped all the rights away and began sending notices with threats of suspension. I have friends and neighbor who got these notices and unlike in my case, there were no more hearings. Of course, everyone paid up. Most were lucky to get the notices before they were arrested. According to those who I spoke to, it looked like junk mail.

You would think if you are going to start arresting and jailing, you would at least send a certified letter to make sure that not only a person got it but got it in a timely manner.

I think the entire system and not just the NPD failed the Napergate Man. Falling behind all those years and just giving your work to out of state agencies who were issuing the suspension before they even sent the mail out is ridiculous. I have no doubt the Napergate Man got his notice after he was suspended. He was offered no chance to take any corrective action.

Chief Dial who is a powerful man needs to call the Toll Authority and question their practices. Where is the due process? He should ask why is this a criminal matter instead of a civil matter. Should we be wasting so many police hours over such petty matters that result in a net loss to the taxpayers.

How much of that 100 dollars that the Napergate Man paid in Dupage Ct. really ended up in the coffers of the NPD. I suspect 0. I think it all went to for the court costs but maybe someone can correct me.

I really feel Illinois is acting like a police state in how it goes around collecting .40 cent violations. A thief could have driven someone else's car through the toll. Someone could have thrown some garbage in the coin basket depriving the coin from registering properly for the next driver. I once through a dollar bill when I had no coin out of frustration. Of course, the Judge did not believe me...but I did.

It justs seems to me you should be allowed a trial and a chance to pay before you are arrested and jailed.

If you are found guilty and the judge orders you to pay, and you don't pay, than it is fair to be arrested.

It is pretty clear since this incident was put under the microscope and studied inside and outside of the judicial process, the only trial the Napergate Man got was after the fact. He apparently pled guilty like everyone else does knowing how hard it is to beat the system.

It reminds me how when he was willing to pay in time and money for a trial on that bottle of Korbel Champagne, the system requested 9 continuances before dismissing the case when the Judge finally told the City of Naperville no more continuances.

Since this was prosecuted by the City of Naperville is this not a waste of taxpayer money to get 9 continuances and than dismiss. Is this not a violation of one's rights? Of course the system does these things so the word gets out, that it is not worth fighting us even if you're innocent. Just plead guily and ask for your supervision and pay all the fines and court fees we are imposing on you without question. That is our system of justice.

Next time you go to court, you will understand why 100 people in a row will plead guilty and get their supervision regardless of whether they are innocent of guilty.

Who can afford to miss 9 days of work when the system plays the card of 9 continuances to make you sweat? Who can afford an attorney for those 9 continuances as the Judge will ususally ask you to bring an attorney if you don't know how to defend yourself? So the system is stacked against the citizen. It is very frustrating.

I think Joe, Ken, SWT, RJ and T.B. should understand that the SYSTEM in the STATE OF ILLINOIS failed and not the Napergate Man. They should be asking for changes just like Joe just did instead of attacking the Napergate Man for irresponsibility for something he did not have an inkling about.

I also don't think parents should be held accountable for what their kids do. The kids have brains and should be accountable for their own actions by age 16.

Yes, parents buy or let their kids use their cars, pay for their insurance to help them out, pay for their gas, etc but does that make them fully responsible for the action of their "misbehaving" kids if not having change at a toll booth is "misbehaving."

My feeling is the group of five lost a lot of credibility for trying to blame the Napergate Man for this one incident. The public just is not buying it.

Why lose all this credibility defending this incident as being properly handled and than be attacked everywhere else even when you have good ideas like the one Joes just presented. People become blind and attack you for everything if you don't make sense just one time.

I think the Group of Five did not make sense on the Toll incident and have suffered attacks by 500 Napergatians on all the threads because of this one incident.

If they would concede that maybe they made a mistake on this incident, I think they can work really well with the Napergatians to solve all the city problems which are numerous.

No problem Christopher, I appreciate you clearing it up. Thanks!

Diana –

As for your guess, you are quite wrong as it relates to me. I am not a professional blogger. I hardly posted this past week as I was very busy with work and the same will be true next week as I will be out of town. I also would not consider myself “older” at age 39, I am not retired, not a police officer, and not living on a pension. Lastly, I am not an Establishment person just because I don’t agree with the Napergatian conspiracy logic. It just means I’m independent and base my posts on facts, not assumptions.

Try again.

***********************

Christopher –

You’re right that Lisha did call me “wishy washy” in the OT thread, but that was because she couldn’t comprehend how I was agreeing with her in principle, but disagreeing on how to attain our common goal. I want the NPD OT to be reduced (thus agreeing with her), but don’t think the fest security is the place to start (thus not agreeing with her). I’m not sure about the court appearances costs, but suggested the city should examine this issue for an alternative to OT, if possible.

The court appearances and fest security account for about 43% of the OT budget…where’s the other 57%? I’m hoping someone comes forward with more insight on this topic to explain where this 57% is spent. I suspect this is where the real fat is in the OT budget.

Is that clear, or still wishy washy to you?

Maybe this will help you and Lisha:

OT, bad. Fest security, good. Unsupported conspiracy theories, bad. Attacking bloggers for no reason other than disagreeing with you, bad. Using facts to support your case, good.

How’s that?

T.B.

Anonymous,

I made a correction to make clear the intent of my original statement. In the context of what I said in my original statement, by using the words "as described" twice, I was referring to Cynthia's description of 12 or more police officers on, or in a variety of vehicles every weekend night last summer.

No apology given.

Kevin,
I am not a regular on these blogs as you probably noticed. I was skimming over many threads last night. Someone had mixed you up with Ken somewhere. I went back and saw the correction that I has skimmed over the first time.

After reviewing the threads again, you seem to be a very reasonable man who wants the best in all cirucmstances...anything but a trouble maker.

I apologize for the mistake. Since both your names start with "Ke" when you skim, sometimes you don't read the whole word. I guess that is what happened to those who made the mistake and me for skimming over the blogs that made the correction. If there was a Jo, Joey and Joe they could also be mixed up. Thank God we only have one Joe.

I think all those Anonymous Bloggers get mixed up. It irks me that the Moderator and Host simply don't ask for a name and e-mail.
With a name, e-mail that is only visible to the Moderator and an IP number also only visible to the Moderator, people can not come on and ruin other bloggers reputation.

Even though I disagree with SWT, I think it is unfair for someone to try to pretend he is SWT and say use profanity and have the Moderator think less of him. Of course, maybe SWT made it hard for the Moderator to identify the phony since he did not give an e-mail address. It seems like an e-mail address is easier to see or track than an IP address for a busy person like the Moderator even though he has the ability to track both as has been proven with the Virginia and Debbie incident.

I would also be hurt if someone compared me to Ken or said I was Ken. So I understand and apologize to you again.

Sincerely,
Christopher

Since this 'movement' is about protecting the taxpayer and cutting 'costs' how about this solution to actually generate money from those who should OWE it.. which in turn lessons the taxpayer's burden.

Take the technology from there:
http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/922581,CST-NWS-boot30.article

...which can scan 900 license plates per hour, and re-tweak the criteria to check against things like suspended registrations and licenses. And, automatically mail the citations.

This is redlight cameras to the next level and it gets those that rightfully OWE money for driving while having either suspended in a FAIR and EQUAL manner without any such inclination of DISCRIMINATION or ABUSE OF DISCRETION.

Just park a few of these around town and we're good to go.. the money will come pouring in which will solve many things:

1) Ensures that discrimination/abuse of discretion never happens again. Let the vans take care of running plates and 1-2 officers can (as part of their regular duty) validate and send the offenders their citations. No need for arrest, no need for handcuffs, no need for poor dogs being separated from their owners.

2) Generates Revenue instead to operate in the black. This adds more funds to the City General Fund and lessens the burden on the taxpayer. It shifts the financial responsibility onto those deserving of the fines.

Win, Win.

"By Christopher on April 29, 2008 7:49 PM. I don't know much about this SNT guy, but I remember Joe, Kevin, and RJ always attacking you".

Chris, when did I attack Diana? I don't believe I have attacked anyone on these blogs...in fact I am on the one who keeps saying we should not use personal attacks against other bloggers when writing your entries. Please explain your comment as I am confused as to why you would include me in that group.

Bethany, someone who accuses me of not having a firm grip on the English language and a lack of reading comprehension should really show that they have those attributes. You continue to show otherwise with your attempts to back up a lie. As I have posted, and as SNT once again explained to you, he never said he did not see bike patrols. He just said that he has never seen the scene described by Lisha. Such an easy statement to understand, yet understanding continually eludes you. Seems you are more interested in running in circles instead of taking the straight line to the truth.

Christopher, glad to see you admit that like many other napergatians, you did not think. This is shown by the claim that that there were only 3 cops in the downtown area on New Years Eve. While you accept it as fact, I wonder if the people counting canvassed the whole downtown area for their 'factual' number. Just as SNT does not see all the cops on duty when he drives through town on the weekends, the revelers may not have seen the complete contingent either. Once again, you are relying on the same type of hearsay that Diana likes to rely on.

Marty, the people I asked about the napergate man have all lived here over 5 years. A few are residents of over 50 years, and read the Naperville Sun religiously. Just because ads are put in a paper does not mean everyone reads them. If one had no NIMBY interest in the business deals the napergate man shot down in his area, they probably had no interest in him. One of the 5 year residents I talked to actually lived in that area and had no interest, although she said it would have been nice to have a gas station at the proposed site as there are really none in that area. All this shows is that while the napergate man may have been relevant to a group of people, he was equally irrelevant to the rest of the town. The actions, or inaction, of the napergatians here will probably not revive whatever movement he once had.

SNT,

Rather than apologize for your first wrongful statement on this thread, you introduced a second statement that is much more accurate.

You should just say you misspoke on your first statement, apologize and I think everyone can move forward.

You did not correct your first statement until many people pointed out it was inaccurate.

I believe you also had an inaccurate statement on the OVERTIME THREAD!

Sometimes a simple apology does wonders in healing wounds!!!

Bethany,

I have clarified the statement you pulled form my quote at 4:08 PM today, so please read it.

As Ken said I did not say I have never seen police on bicycles downtown. I did not say I have never seen a police officer on a motorcycle downtown. I said I have NEVER seen what Cynthia described.

You can waste your time trying to slice and dice my words all you want, but it doesn't change the truth.

Diana,
I also wanted to welcome you back. Honestly, I thought you would never come back after that marathon of blogging you undertook. But I am glad you took time off and are back blogging with us again!

I read your 3 posts on both this thread and the overtime thread today and I felt they were insightful and revealing. It seems like you have been thinking a lot during your time off.

We know you are truthful! Too bad you have to be attacked on your first day back by SNT and Ken. I guess this group of five will always have it in for you as you seem to have took them on singlehandedly very well. I don't know much about this SNT guy, but I remember Joe, Kevin, and RJ always attacking you. TB seemed to swing either way with wind. Some blogger said he was a little wishy washy. I agree with that assesment. He just does not seem like a decision maker. Reminds me of a lost soul who needs constant guidance. I have not figured T.B. out. Bloggers say Joe like to argue. He does but you know where Joe stand. T.B. likes to argue to but no one can figure out where he stands...it seems like he shifts with the sands.

Be assured your fellow Napergatians did not desert you that 2 week period. I also could not find that thread because Host Ted always said go to the Napergate Link and it would be there.

Well, I went 10 times and it was never there. I thought the Naperville Sun had it with that thread and just trashed it.

Like many others, I would have never thought to scroll below the 10 Threads on the Main Page to look for an Archive Link on the bottom. I just used the Main Page to blog on one of the 10 threads. Never would have thought to scroll underneath them. I don't think that link was there before the Sun made those changes, but I could be wrong. Well, anyway, I hope that explains we did not intentionally leave you blogging by yourself against that Group of Five. I don't think it is helpful to call them the Gang of Five or City Boys. Let us respect them and just shred their messages which really make no sense. We could win much better support in the community if we refrain from name calling.

But anyway after I found that dead thread one day by accident, it took me a whole day to catch up on all you wrote in those 2 weeks. I was amazed one person could write all that. You seemed like you had become possessed to take on the world...kind of like a Napergate Woman!!!

You did a great job, Diana, and again welcome back! We all missed you! Hopefully, Ameena will come back one day, too. I must say I miss her very much. She was Ms. Articulate! She was something else.
I can not believe the time that gal devoted to research in the library.

I hope her book is a smashing success. I honestly can't wait to buy it one day!

By Southwest Naperville Taxpayer on April 29, 2008 4:09 PM
I find it interesting that for months many Napergatians have been blogging about these 12 NPD officers on overtime at Chicago & Washington as if it has been standard procedure to give protection to 4 bars who you claim should have their own security to handle the police work. Now you say it's only on weekends in the summer after 11 pm.

Get real!!!

------------------------------------------------------------------

SWNT,
The Napergatians have always been only talking about summer weekends. They were never talking about non-summer months. Some Napergatians talked about weekends in general and some talked about weekends after 11pm. No one ever talked about a weekday. It seems like you are trying to plant something here using Joe's old tactics. Thankfully, Joe stopped that bad habit after he was called so many times as the Napergatinas refused to bite. I hope you don't start it all over again SWNT as you know you will be called out. Why try?

Many Napergatinas praised the NPD several times for handling New Year's Eve with only 3 cops. They were proud of the NPD for not having 12 cops. If the NPD uses 3 cops or less on Chicago Ave this summer, the Napergatians will be happy and probably praise them even though many of us feel the bars should be paying for their indoor and outdoor security. But how can not be thankful for saving the OT pay of 9 officers!!!

There were 6 bike cops who worked the weekend nights...I don't know if they sarted at 6pm or 11pm. I always went after 11pm and saw them. A few hung around the balcony by Jimmy's and a few hung right between the Lantern and Features. They were not that easily visible since they intermingled with the busy sidewalk crowds, but they were there.

The cop dog was there very infrequently. No one said he was there all the time. The motocycle cops were not always on Chicago Ave but riding throughout downtown and usually resting on Chicago Ave. I sawy them twice in front of the Lantern, once in front of Rosebuds and once in front of Sullivan's. I believe the summer of 2007 was there first year, so maybe many people have not seen them. But I will tell you their motorcylces were very clean and nice looking.

Anyway my experiences is if you were walking you would notice 10-12 cops. If you were driving, it is harder to notice the bike and walking cops. The higher number of 12-14 included Park District Poice that maybe some Napergatians could not differentiate from the NPD since they looker similar except for the color of their shirt.
Most of the PDP were also on bikes...not motorcycles!

That my 2 cents worth to bring clarification!

"Trust me, Ken, Diana can do circles around you and you would not even know what circled around you!!!"

--- So can a dog when it is chasing its own tail.

I've seen many police officers scattered about throughout the downtown area. Often times when the crowds are really large, perhaps even more than 12. Bicycles, cars, on foot, SUV, marked, unmarked.. but they've all been mingling, keeping traffic moving at intersections like Jefferson and Main, Main and Jackson, etc and they pull over and ticket the dorks dumb enough to try to do burnouts with so many people around.

I've not seen a dozen just standing around. 3-4 maybe as they are passing information to each other about which cars to keep an eye on because of previous activity by them elsewhere in the downtown area, moving in to provide coverage when another set of officers are busy busting someone for doing something stupid and unsafe, etc.

I've yet to find that secret light on them that says they are making OT pay to be there.

Where on earth do they have that on their person, because many people here keep claiming they know they are all on OT, but I have yet to see how to tell by looking at them.

Help a guy out... how do you know they are on OT all the time when they are patrolling downtown?

By Southwest Naperville Taxpayer on April 28, 2008 3:51 PM
Cynthia,

You might have been downtown on a bad night last summer. I find it hard to believe it was the same as you describe every weekend night based on my own experience. I was there many weekends, and at least passing through almost EVERY weekend night, and never saw what you describe, except the police cars in the middle of Chicago Avenue.

No lie.

====================================================================

Ken,

I think your reading comprehension is the one that is lacking and not Diana's. Read the above post. SWT clearly said he only saw police cars in the middle of Chicago Ave. He stated he never saw anything, EXCEPT the police cars.

Too bad the Moderator does not have time to explain to you the meaning of words!

After SNT was called out, he changed his story and suddently saw bike cops. But where in his first post that I posted special for you, did he say he had ever seen a bike cop. Show me Ken and prove your reading comprehesion abilities that you love to BRAG about!

Show me, Ken, if your comprehension of the English Language is so good, where he says he saw bike cops in the above post. Just point it out to me plainly without twisting or distorting.

Remember the second post Diana posted was after SNT was caught lying. Maybe she should have posted them in reverse order since you could not see or understand the time stamps on the respective posts.

Trust me, Ken, Diana can do circles around you and you would not even know what circled around you!!!

By Cynthia on April 28, 2008 12:50 PM
"All last summer on weekend nights they had 12 cops there. 6 were on bikes, 2 were on motorcycles, and 4 occupied 2 SUVs and one or 2 police cars parked in the middle of Chicago Ave. They even had a 13th loud cop dog that kept parking at all the patrons trying to get cab rides home. I will never forget how annoying that German Shepard was. I do not know why he had to be there."

All right. I should make myself more clear. I HAVE NEVER SEEN WHAT YOU DESCRIBE. You claim that what you describe was the situation on weekend nights all last summer.

I was giving you my observation of police cars in the middle of the street often, but otherwise I never saw all 12 or 13 NPD officers you claim were there every night on 6 bikes, 2 motorcycles, AND 4 SUVs at any one time. If this was happening every night I would have seen it the way you describe it. I was there often and NEVER saw it that way. As I said, maybe you were there on a bad night.

I find it interesting that for months many Napergatians have been blogging about these 12 NPD officers on overtime at Chicago & Washington as if it has been standard procedure to give protection to 4 bars who you claim should have their own security to handle the police work. Now you say it's only on weekends in the summer after 11 pm.

Get real!!!

Diana,

I thought I better come here and tell you that I agree with you that the arrest of the Napergate Man was not necessary.

I also believe it was a complete waste of Police OT money but did not want to say it on the other thread and risk banishment.

I believe 4 policeman were involved all making $54 dollars an hour hour. How convenient they wait for their Chicago Ave shift to end and decide to make YET more OT. By nailing the Napergate Man at 2:15am instead of just warning him before he got in his vehicle, they each made another 2 hours of OT and cost us taxpayers over 400 dollars of money. Plus I am sure they satisfied some political goal of the establishment to keep harassing this Napergate Man. So they hit 2 birds with one stone you can surmise!

The Napergate Man may have paid a 100 fine that hopefully went to the police but it could have went to the court....so who pays for the other 300 dollars for a louzy .40 cent toll booth violaiton he did not even committ. Wow!!! Insanity!!!

McFarland,

What lie are you referring to? I support police presence, but I have NEVER seen 12 NPD on overtime at the intersection of Chicago & Washington.

Diana,

Great job exposing Southwest Naperville Taxpayer. He lies everywhere he can.

Just wrote a post on the OT Thread praising your letters. I will try to save gigabytes and not repeat myself.

But it is great to see you writing again. You won't be alone this time. That I can promise!!!!

Well Diana, I can see the break you took from writing your usual vitriolic posts were not used to increase your reading comprehension abilities. You posted exactly what SWT said, and nowhere in those exact quotes did he say he never saw a bike patrol. He said that the police presence was not as bad as Cynthia described on the weekends he was there, which was the majority of them.

Diana, as usual, it turns out that you are the liar. What a surprise, one of your fellow cult members with the same cult trademark lack of reading comprehension joins you in your libelous remarks. Of course, Mcfarland conveniently ignores the blatant lie your whole post is based on.

It puzzles me how the napergate cult can be in complete denial regarding all the facts that shoot down their fanatical ravings. Is it just the lack of reading comprehension or an inability to recognize the truth?

Diana,
It is great to have you back blogging with us after such a long absence. I enjoyed both your letters here and the one on the OT Napergate permissible thread.

Thanks for exposing this SWT guy for what he is. I guess you caught him in a blatant lie.

It puzzles me how these City Supporters one day are in denial about these 12 cops on Chicago Ave. and the next day they are not in denial about them but feel they are worth this massive OT expense. They have no clue what they are saying or what is good for Naperville.

I can only write this short letter since I have to get back to work, but if T.B. thinks this OVERTIME in downtown is necessary, he and his City Supporting buddies should pay for it at their expense...not taxpayer expense! Most of us are trying to make ends meet and are shocked when we get our semi annual real estate tax bills from Dupage in the mail. I had to use a home equity loan to pay my last 2 because of rising food, gasoline and other rising costs. I would love to stay in Naperville but can not, unless wasteful government shapes up and brings down costs to where they are affordable again.

Again, welcome back Diana! I can understand that you wanted to take some serious time off after that marathon of blogging you undertook by yourself, against that nonsensical Group of 5, when most of us thought the thread was dead in the Archives with no Napergate Link to reach it, until Host Ted finally connected it for us 2 weeks later!

And please, SWT, stop your lies...they are counterproductive to moving forward.....!!!!

By Southwest Naperville Taxpayer on April 29, 2008 1:10 AM
Diana,

I also did not say I haven't seen police on bicycles downtown. I have seen them all summer long. I said I did not see the 12 or more officers on Washington & Chicago as described by Cynthia on another thread.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

By Southwest Naperville Taxpayer on April 28, 2008 3:51 PM
Cynthia,

You might have been downtown on a bad night last summer. I find it hard to believe it was the same as you describe every weekend night based on my own experience. I was there many weekends, and at least passing through almost EVERY weekend night, and never saw what you describe, except the police cars in the middle of Chicago Avenue.

No lie.

====================================================================

Southwest Naperville Taxpayer,

While I only blog when I have a vacation or day off as time is limited, I do read Jim's Blogs almost every night before I go to sleep to keep up on my readings and especially with what my Napergtian friends are saying.

In one post you say that "you pass through almost EVERY weekend night and never seen anything but police cars in the middle of Chicago Ave."

And you add "NO LIE"!

In the next post after it has been revealed you were lying about being there almost EVERY weekend, since you, if you truly would have been there almost EVERY weekend, would have seen the BIKE COPs who are in addition to the SUV COPS, POLICE CAR COPS and MOTORCYCLE COPS!

People who have to say they are not lying("No lie", are your exact words), usually are lying. That happens to be the case with you from yesterday to today. You can't even keep your LIE STRAIGHT for 9 hour and 19 minutes. Do you lie that often that you can not keep track of your lies? Are you some kind of pathological liar possibly?

Your lie has been proven in this case against you with your OWN WORDS, SWT!

You stated clearly, you never saw anything EXCEPT the police cars in the middle of Chicago Ave. That means you did not see bike cops. But when you realized everyone else had seen bike cops but you, you changed your story to conform. You also lied about being downtown almost EVERY weekend or you would have known.

If you start adding the SUV Cops, the police car Cops, the 6 bike cops and the 2 Motorcycle Cops, you do get 10-14 cops because cops visit and leave Chicago Ave to check on Jefferson. Sometimes when you have 14, it is really only 12 NPD being visited by 2 Park District Bike Cops who can be distinguished by their yellow vests. The NPD wear blue vests.

I suggest you stop spewing you lies on the Napergate Thread. Take your lies to the first Police OT Thread where Naperagatians can not hold you accountable. It seems obvious why you want to limit Napergatian blogging on Jims's Threads. You want to be able to lie without being held accountable. Well, you made the mistake of coming to a Napergate Thread where you will be ripped apart shredded and exposed...and you were!!!

If I had the power to banish, I would banish all those who lie, starting with you, SWT, since all you and others like you who lie do, is delay the resolution of serious problems facing both Napergatians and Napervillians.

Enough lying, PLEASE!!!

Diana,
You have a hard time being truthful, don't you? I was never blogging with you when no one could find this Napergate thread. My one, and only post on this thread was on April 25 until my response to Moderator Jim tonight! I won't use the 'L' word regarding your account of you recollection, but it are false.

I also did not say I haven't seen police on bicycles downtown. I have seen them all summer long. I said I did not see the 12 or more officers on Washington & Chicago as described by Cynthia on another thread.

To give you a better understanding I am reposting one of my posts from another thread:

By Southwest Naperville Taxpayer on April 20, 2008 7:35 PM
"It was interesting to read the article in the Sun today about city spending for our police protection, and the need to pay police overtime.

I am a Naperville resident who likes to see the high visibility of police downtown. When I walk around downtown on crowded nights, it is reassuring to see police officers present on foot, and on bicycles. Let's remember Naperville is a college town, too. We have alot of college kids partying, along with alot of nightclubbers coming in from out of town to party with us. I agree with Chief Dial in the article when he states "I think the visibility of police in that area keeps things like drunk driving and fights to a minimum."

Comparing police presence at individual bars and liquor stores at strip malls by "Disgruntled with Police Overtime" is not an appropriate comparison to the need for police presence on the downtown streets teeming with people from within and without the bars."

I have read many posts by self-proclaimed Napergatians complaining about 12 officers on Chicago Avenue overseeing 4 bars while they are being paid overtime. From what I know, that assertion is not true.

Moderator:

Last post to Diana w/ links to the police blotter section outlining arrests for people w/ DWS was mine.

Diana,

Equal treatment seems to be what was given. Recent examples of incidents that had a DWS include:

http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/napervillesun/news/892161,6_1_NA13_COPS_S1.article

10 Resisting a police officer: Rony H. Perez, 25, Chicago; 4 p.m. at the Naperville police station, 1350 W. Aurora Ave.; charged with resisting or obstructing a police officer, driving with a suspended license and having no insurance.

^^^ Book him, Dan-O!

http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/napervillesun/news/879757,6_1_NA06_COPS_S1.article

23 Dumping: Alfonso Casas, 32, Aurora; 2:01 a.m. near Bruce Lane and Route 59; charged with dumping/littering and driving with a suspended license.

^^^^ They would have just given him a ticket for littering, but due to suspended license, arrested on Rt. 59.

http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/napervillesun/news/police/872357,6_1_NA02_COPS_S1.article

13 Hit-and-run: Michael L. Aiardo, 21, 203 Westmoreland Lane; 5:49 p.m. near Jefferson Avenue and West Street; charged with hit-and-run, driving with a suspended license and improper lane use.

^^^^ Woops.. that's going to be an expensive one, especially w/ a suspended license.

http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/napervillesun/news/868050,6_1_NA30_COPS_S1.article

6 Obstruction of justice: Charles A. Decuire, 34, 2508 Bordeaux Drive; 11:45 p.m. near Northampton Court and Modaff Road; charged with obstruction of justice and driving with a suspended license; also wanted on a warrant.

^^^^ Hmm, running a tag yielded not only a DWS but a warrant too.

----------

Seems like the norm is arrest when there is a DWS. Please cite me some where they were allowed to go on their merry way and turn themselves in later. I await your facts.

It seems like the NGM got over it, his dog got over it, but some bloggers obviously haven't gotten over it. Why not?

"Moderator Jim to Southwest: Okay, Southwest, thanks for letting me know....that's not good. Maybe you should change yours. That's eminently unfair to you but I don't see any recourse. Let me know what you think. Thanks."

Is Southwest posting without an e-mail address? Maybe that would resolve the issue.

Gina,

You are throwing out specific changes but have not proven there is actually a problem.

What specific incidents happen on the NW side that warrants your patrol shift?

Further, if you just shift the patrols around, you are not reducing the manhours and thus not reducing the cost of those manhours.

Please show the actual problem without speculation, but using actual incidents and incident numbers to show the problem before throwing out a 'solution'. I'm open for this type of discussion and in fact, love these types.

Start w/ the NW side: What problems are there now that needs further patrols? I looked at the police blotter on Sunday and there were more incidents in the downtown area than the NW side from what I could tell. By NW side, I am assuming where Wendy's and Brookdale music is on Rt 59 (just south of Diehl) near the Steak N Shake, correct?

Hi Bloggers,

It seems like nothing has changed since my 2 week solo marathon on this thread except for thankfully everyone finally found it besides those 5 that were hassling me for 2 weeks. Thanks for finally putting it on the Napergate Link, Host Ted! I really think that made a huge difference!

I guess that Group of Five hassles everyone...so I don't feel special anymore! Just kidding!

But I just wanted to step in and say that I am a little surprised Southwest Naperville Taxpayer has never seen those bike cops downtown and wants to make out all the Napergatians into liars.

Sorry, I saw them too on many occasions. I am sure the Moderator and Host probably seen those 6 bike cops on weekends. Sometimes, I wish they would just tell SWT that he is wrong and to take a chill pill.

Or have SWT call the NPD headquarters and ask them about those bike cops. I am sure the NPD will admit they were patrolling in the downtown area all summer long.

Whether they will return on motorcycles this year or be discontinued only time will tell. I did hear a rumor that they may be discontinued from a friend...but she was not sure as she heard it from another friend....hearsay they call it!

I agree with my fellow Napergatians that we have too much police manpower downtown. That does not mean we don't like police. It just means we don't like to waste money on unnecessary police officers or police OT.

I have nothing against most Naperville Police.

When I was bloggin for 2 weeks alone here against that group of five, I was blogging against Sgt. Greg Bell and his assistants because I felt they mishandled the Napergate Man with their authority and discretionary powers.

My understanding was he told them truthfully, he got no notice on his license suspension and after investigating I determined he was telling the truth based on Toll Authority Records provided by my girl friend. An experienced Sgt. like Mr. Bell with 21 years of policing under his belt, should have been able to look the Napergate Man in the eyes and know he was telling him the truth. If he could not determine for some reason he was telling him the truth, it is fine to arrest him without handcuffs and allow him to bail himself out immediately.

My objection was the need for handcuffs over a petty matter he knew nothing about combined with overnight jailing. I have continued to follow the various opinions on this blog site, and my opinion has not changed regarding the arrest of the Napergate Man in the summer of 2006.

I feel strongly that Sgt. Bell used his discretion in the complete opposite of how it was meant to be used. I have very strong suspicions he was retaliating against the Napergate Man for his prior political Napergate Ads blasting the Naperville Police Dept. during his Napergate Kangaroo Trials.

The Napergate Man should be treated like everyone else...not different. I believe that even he was treated differently and much harsher.

His only crime was knowing that discretion was allowed by the NPD and asking for some so he can get his dog, Abby, home. He was not asking for forgiveness. He was not asking for the right to drive home. He was not asking not to be booked. He was not asking not to be fingerprinted. He was not asking not to post the required $100 dollar bond.

All he was asking for is to be allowed to take his dog home and surrender himself voluntarily for booking and fingerprinting. That is all he was asking for. Even after giving it much thought the last month, I think he was being very reasonable. I believe he was much more worried about Abby than himself. I am sure if they gave him a book or newspaper in his cell, the time would fly for him. So his concern had to be for Abby and Bob who had to deal with her frantic temper after being separated from her owner as any loyal dog would react to the loss of its guardian.

This is where I think Joe, Ken, SWT, RJ and T.B. continue to be confused. He was not asking for preferential treatment. He was asking for EQUAL TREATMENT.

Honestly, it was so frustrating blogging and arguing with those guys( I won't call them boys anymore) I had to take some time off. I got a massive headache that I just got over. I never seen such stubborn human beings in my life who could not give and take just a little.

My latest observation is we now have professional bloggers on this blog site. All they do is blog day and night! I am guessing this group of 5 are older retired establishment men. Possibly a few police officers enjoying their 75% pension while blogging away on Jim's Blogs.

I am glad they love to blog. We all enjoy blogging as long as it does not consume us as it consumed me for 2 weeks. But like someone said these 5 if they could find 7 more like them would find OJ Simpson innocent in a third trial beyond any reasonable doubt. They focus on the most impossible scenarios. They want to convince other bloggers by using the one in a billion IMPOSSIBLE scenarios.

I am so happy to see no one really has joined their forces. I am happy to see since my disappearance the last few weeks, many new bloggers have joined the Napergatians. Reason and logic will always win over the majority of human beings. The Napergatians seem to have all the reason and logic needed. The group of five has neither reason nor logic and most likely does not know what either means!

I am going to try not to call them any names like I did last time. I admit they frustrated me into calling them names and that is counterproductive to the goals and mission of the Napergate Man and the Napergate Movement.

Finally, I would like to thank Liquor Man Rick for keeping us informed of the latest news. I was elated to hear the Napergate Man confiscated 26 fake IDs the last 2 months. Again, this is what he does to help the Naperville Police day in and day out, and they chose to not even use the slightest discretion they have been empowered with by us citizens, to treat him like an average Naperville resident deserves to be treated. They treated him very unfairly considering the unusual circumstances that faced him that FATEFUL EVENING in downtown as Host Ted COINED IT SO SUCCINCTLY!

Jim,

I did not post a comment. Someone is spoofing my handle.

Anonymouse, I don't see RJ trying to tell anyone, much less the moderator what to do. He has just pointed out infestations of other threads by the napergatians. This seems fair to me as the napergatians feel free to try to get those of us they don't like kicked off this board.

After all the shrill accusations of lying that the napergatians throw about, I have to wonder what Southwest could possibly say that would cross a line the napergatians have not already crossed.

Ken,

I am not sure about your survey. I do live in Pembroke Commons and in my subdivision, 100% of the Subdivision residents know who the Napergate Man is.

Even the new residents find out quickly from the older residents.

I suspect if you live in an apartment in the extreme SW of Naperville that was built recently and has annual turnover it is possible they would not know about him or even ever heard of him.

But, of course, that group also does not read the Naperville Sun or blog. So yes, that is possible in a high turnover apartment complex.

I would be curious if you asked that group if they ever heard of the Naperville Sun what the result would be! If they did hear of the Sun or subscribe to it, ask them how they missed that front page article on the front page of the Sun in January with a Napergate heading.

Maybe you should try doing a survey in an older subdivision instead of a newer apartment complex. I suspect you will get completely opposite results!

Joe,

I think with your latest statement maybe a healing process can develop between you and the Napergatians.

I sense we all have similar goals.

We all want maximum security for the minimum price possible!

There has to be a cost analysis done at some point!

We just can't have security in the downtown at any cost.

There has to be some limits.

Police Officers downtown are very important.

Maybe we can have 3 on Chicago Ave, one on Jefferson and Washington, one on Main and Jefferson, and one between Jilly's and Hugo's Frog House! That covers all the areas with bars.

That puts us with 6 cops covering the entire downtown in addition to the patrols of marked and unmarked vehicles that do their rounds on a routine basis in the downtown area.

That could be a great compromise.

If the cops spread out downtown instead of cluttering one intersection, they would not so visible to the Napergatians.

Plus if we can reduce from 12 to 6, we can send 2 cops to that very busy NW Plaza that has no cops. And I guess there are 4 other plazas in Naperville that could use one addtional police officer that have bars and good weekend business. I don't know of any though except for that unusual NW Plaza that somehow manged to get 4 liquor licenses. I always thought plazas like that were limited to one liquor license...shows you how much I know about how things are done in this town.

Anyway, Joe, I would like to ask you to have an open mind about some possible reduction of the police force in the downtown area and moving some police to other areas in town that also help pay for them.

Thank you for your nice and polite response to my post!

Moderator Jim to Southwest: Didn't like your "lying" reference in your last comment. It's a mischaracterization and borders on defamation. You can clean it up and re-submit if you want. Thanks.

Gina,

I admit, I did not pose my question with the proper context to Ken.

My question was with regards to the 'great triumphant battles' that people keep posting about over and over on here that is what? over 10 years old?

I concede, respect and admire that he goes on with his daily life doing what he does making a positive difference in enforcing proper alcohol sales in his establishments to only those customers legally old enough to purchase it.

In the past on these blogs there was a tone of "oh, just you wait and see what he does next".. or "you don't want to upset him, after-all he single handedly took on city hall and won".. Yes.. ok, again, that was 10 years ago. Lately, as you also speculate, it seems that he just wants to go about his life doing what he does and loving what he does without all of the hoopla and fanfare that many posters on here are trying to stir up (and attempting to ride his coattails).

To me, it sounds like many posters here are doing more of a disservice to the gentleman by trying to thrust his name back into the spotlight and literally calling out to him to come LEAD THEM!. If he wanted to, he would. Since he's not, it tells me he's perhaps done with that chapter in his life. I can certainly respect that and I wish others would too.

By Joe on April 26, 2008 8:46 PM
Ken,
I believe the phrase is: What has he done lately?
Most people only worry about the hero of the moment, not last decade.
I don't try to strain my arms patting myself on the back for things I did last decade.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

By Joe on April 28, 2008 12:43 PM
Janee,

You are falling for someone's hook line and sinker. I never said I have anything against the NGM.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

I see a little contradiction here, Joe!

Most of us still think fondly of him and even more so after Liquor Man Rick reported he confiscated 26 Fraudulent IDs the last 2 months of which 9 were already turned to the Mayor's office. Unless one has teenagers one is clueless to how very serious the alcohol and automobile problem is in this town.

The Napergate Man apparently just works quietly and does not need a lot of attention.

I am sure Liquor Man Rick only spoke because people like yourself are wondering what he is doing lately with an implication he may be doing nothing anymore.

Maybe if the Naperville Sun could do an article or or set up a thread we can learn more about the production of fake IDs and their confiscations which seems to be top secret in this town.

It seems anything about this Napergate Man is top secret.

It does seem odd that he seems to want a top secret life, the old Naperville Sun wanted him to have a top secret life, and this current City Administration also wants him to have a top secret life.

It seems like his numerous supporters and the new Naperville Sun want him to have a public life that he seems not interested in.

To say the least this Napergate Story has become a fascinating story because of all its twists, turns, speculations and so many differences of opinion!

But I would like to say it has gotten very hard to control ones own teenagers these days. They don't listen anymore. They don't respect parents. They hide their fake IDs from us. They hide their booze from us. They hide their drugs from us.

They do not understand the consequences to their actions. As a parent I can no longer get a good night's sleep worrying about my teenagers and what they may do next to get themselves in trouble.

I am just so very glad we have this Napergate Man stripping these teenagers of their IDs. He apparently knows from years of experience how to do it.

I have never heard of one incident in 20 years where he has taken an ID wrongfully from his customers who were of age. He obviously has a way of making sure he only takes fraudulent or stolen IDs that don't belong to those who are showing or presenting them.

If my kids ever get a hold of these fake IDs and he snatches them away from them, I will make sure I find a way to track him down and thank him. I guess the rumor is if you walk your dog in his subdivions of Pembroke Commons you will eventually run into him walking his dog Abby and he will talk to you one to one. He just does not seem to like to talk to the press anymore. After running all those Napergate ads maybe he got tired of the attention he brought to himself instead of the causes he was trying to promote.

Nobody really knows! I will admit I am speculating like everyone else on Jim's Threads.

Ken,
RJ is always breathing down the neck of the Moderator trying to tell him what to do. He makes it so obvious.

He needs to let the Moderator do his job. The Moderator is doing a great job and does not need RJ always advising him like he is his boss. He makes the Moderator unintentionally look bad.

If he really cared for the Moderator, he would send him a private e-mail instead of constantly pressuring him publicly to second guess his rightful first decisions.

It seems as soon as the Napergatians stopped pressuring, RJ stepped in to fill their shoes...exactly what we did not want for this Blog Site. I say leave Moderator alone...he is doing an awesome job!

Just blog about the issues at hand! And on this Napergate Thread there are no limitations so everything goes but libel and profanity.

What more can a blogger really want???

Briana, RJ is not being a drama king, as you claim. I don't know how many times various cult members have insisted that Joe, RJ, or I are the same person; I just know it is to numerous to count. As soon as this claim is made, the next statement usually encourages Jim to ban us or take away our posting privileges for varying amounts of time. I understand that the cult members hate to debate with people that use actual facts, but the constant tactics used above do get tiresome after a while.

It is almost as tiresome as the fake numbers you posted to support your flawed argument about downtown police enforcement. It is now gospel truth according to the cult members that there are 12 cops on permanent duty in front of four bars, and they are all on overtime. This even when one of the cult's own members admitted he was there on New Year's Eve and only saw three cops. No one has come up with any facts that the cops are all on overtime either. I found through the village web site that they are on 12 hour shifts of either 5:30-5:30 or 6:30-6:30. The times claimed as OT would be covered by their normal shifts. As usual, publicly available information proves cult information wrong.

Janee, I have nothing against the napergate man. He appears to be an honest business man wronged by the city. He had enough money from his successful businesses to try to get back at the city. I have no problem with that. My problem is with his fanatical followers who often present hearsay and opinion as fact. They lament that their chosen leader and his money have left them, yet are not willing to select a new leader and put up their own money to further their claimed agenda. When anyone dares to dis agree with them, they libel that person, as Anne did to me in the post right after yours, and try to get anyone who does not buy the cult line banned. They call themselves well intentioned citizens but cannot debate in a rational manner. They ask for answers to their questions, and then ignore the answers when they prove their claims wrong. Problem with the napergate man? Not at all. Problem with his cult following that rarely has a true fact to back their claims? Yes.

Anne, thank you for your libelous post that proves what I said above. As I have stated before, you people are all so brave when you can play keyboard Rambos. It would be interesting to see how you try to portray yourselves in real life as your actions here would prohibit anyone from wanting to have any kind of contact with you.

Janee,

You are falling for someone's hook line and sinker. I never said I have anything against the NGM. I've said time and again I admire his conviction and purpose and him standing up for what he believes. Unfortunately, many here like to pretend and write that people say things they did not. Just look at Briana's last bunch of drivel for a classic example of taking something out of context and inventing a whole new statement to surround it and basically committing libel.

I agree with you, it would be nice to track down the source of the IDs. Do retailers just take and turn in or do they call the cops and give over statements, video tape evidence of the perps and file formal complaints against the customers who were trying to pass the ID off as real? I don't know how that process goes, so please tell us.

Do you have actual city stats that back up your claim that no other retailer is doing this confiscation? Why not call the ATF about it and go over the NPD's heads if you think there is wrongdoing going on or nod/nod/wink/wink look the other way things happening...?

TO: Gigi on April 26, 2008 6:53 PM Who Wrote regarding the NGM:

I think he is considered a hero by all Napervillians and Napergatians equally for his actions in saving lives. I do not know of one Napervillian who ever complained about his heavy handedness in confiscating IDs which amounted to police work.

The difference between him and the NPD is he never made an exception for one person regardless of who he or she was. If they showed him a fake ID, it was gone and the NPD was called.

_____________________________________________________________________

Could this be the reason the NGM is not proceeding with action against the NPD in his arrest over 1 1/2 years ago? Maybe he realizes that he was simply being treated like everyone else that night, and was also being treated like he treated the law violators who came into his establishments? (Heavy Handedness are Gigi's words) Maybe this is a case that the NGM knows he has no case? Just a thought.

Please don't take this to be a bashing of the NGM - I admire his history of confiscating underage ID's, he did a real service to this community.

Briana,

Keep up the libel. One question though... Are you on meds or is this a natural thing for you? If meds, I can forgive it much more easily.

Beilen,

I enjoyed you last insightful post to Joe. I was just wondering why you are wasting your time responding to the likes of Joe, Ken, and RJ. They know exactly what is going on. Their tactics of disproval actually in an awkward way end up being tactics of proving all the Napergatians' points.

I think we all know that it is very unlikely that the Napergate Man ended up with 4 liquor establishements surrounded with drunks while the the remaining 5,000 liquor establishments in Chicagoland ended up in DRUNK FREE ZONES.

This Ken guy that RJ recruited to this blog site is a little off mentally. I have to admit I laugh at him every time I read what he writes. The only convincing he is done on this blog site is that he is a man of missing or inadequate faculties. And if this is the best RJ can recruit to help the establishment point of view, I wonder about RJ's abilities and capabilities!

It is very easy to see that people like yourself, Mr. Beilen, along with Randy, Liquor Man Rick, Liebert, Briana and Steve are well intentioned citizens who care about our town, its safety and prosperity.

If these few people represent the Establishment Party, I can not imagine the Napergate Party will not sweep the next elections.

I suspect these guys do not represent the Establishment Party or our town would be in total chaos instead of partial chaos.

I think Mayor George Pradel and company are going to do something soon about this Police OT, subsidized parking, ID confiscation problem, and discrimination paracticed behind the cloth and cloak of discretion.

Mayor Pradel is a nice man being misled by many. I think a few more articles in the Naperville Sun by Moderatoer Jim Lynch and Mayor Pradel will be enlightened and see the light in the forest. He may already be seeing the light in the forest and working behind the scenes to fix all these problems along with his colleagues on the City Council.

I would love to see Mayor Pradel switch parties and lead the Napergate Party. At that point we would have the nicest town in the whole wide world...with the best and most honest leadership!

I am sure Mayor Pradel would have no trouble getting the Napergate Man's edorsement. Unlike all the other Establishemnt Officials, he is a very sincere and honest politician like most Napergatains. He really fits much better in the Napergate Party than the Establishment Party who are all about cronyism, connections and enrichment at any cost to the innocent residential taxpayer!

Joe, Ken and RJ,

I am a little puzzled regarding what you gentelmen hold against this Napergate Man. He obviously has taken liquor enforcement to a very high level.

I think you should be writing your City Officials and Council Members asking them to encourage other liquor establishments to achieve his high standards.

It seems it is a matter of desire and can be achieved by any retailer with a liquor license just like with any Walgreen's or CVS Pharmacy avoiding the dispensing of drugs wrongfully or illegally through extreme diligence!

The question is why is the desire lacking amongst all the other retailers in town. Why does the Napergate Man have this deep desire to enforce the law while no other retailer seems to have it?

To the best of my knowledge he is no longer competing for a National Title but still has this ever lasting desire!

This has been going on for 25 plus years in our town where it seems the Napergate Man is the only one doing this serious and necessary liquor enforcement in town.

I was shocked to learn that the Napergate Man consfiscated another 26 fakes IDs the last 2 months. I was not aware this problem was so widespread in this day and age in Naperville.

I was under the false assumption and impression that duplicating fake IDs was much more difficut than the old days because of sophisticated technology and iron clad controls.

Since the Napergate Man turns these IDs over, why has the City of Naperville not done an investigation to track the source where of these IDs are fabricated and manufactured.

Every time a kid gets a hold of one, he is endangering his life and those of others.

I really commend the Napergate Man for his efforts and I wish you gentlemen would also, while encouraging other liquor licensees to match his Herculean efforts.

Sincerely,
Janee

Liquor Man Rick,
I enjoyed your 2 letters very much. I am glad to see someone is doing so much behind the scenes even though he is not recognized for his efforts by our City Officials or local newspapers.

I have 2 teenagers that are approaching that age of desiring alochol and autombiles.

Please tell the Napergate Man next time you see him, that this resident really appreciates all his efforts of enforcement!

RJ,

I think you are trying to be a Drama King. Moya was only curious if Ken and Joe were the same guy since they sound like each other and are constantly patting each other on the back(s). She did not want their IP number or the numbers revealed publicly. She did not want to track him/them down. She was simply curious if they one or the same! They do sound very very similar. Almost like parrots repeating after each other.

Let us not forget that Joe and Company pressured Host Ted to do a check on the Napergatians a few months ago to make sure they were the 300 they claimed they were.

Host Ted did do an IP check on the Napergatians and found out they may be only 298. He found 2 girls bloggin under the same IP number and 2 guys bloggin under the same IP. The girls turned out to be Debbie and Virginia who both admitted they were bloggin at a Dunkin Donuts togeher. Virginia had written 2 long letters sandwiching one long letter Debbie wrote. Apparently if you blog from DD, due to their wireless system, you will all have the same IP number even if multiple computers and individuals are blogging!

We never heard from the 2 men. They could have been one man using 2 names, they could have been buddies bloggin from a home with wireless, or they could have been blogging from a wireless cafe.

So Host Ted under pressure from Joe and Company did an extensive IP check on Napergatians. He did not make the IP numbers public or give them to the police. It was no big deal. It was done to satisfy Joe that there were more than 20 Napergatians blogging and he apparently still believes the possible 500 Napergatinas now bloggin may be only 30 or 40. That is Joe for you. He believes what he wants. Jurors on OJ Simpson jury found OJ inncocent when he was purely 100% guilty. Joe believes in that Jury and learned that you can take the 1 in a billion odds and brainwash people to believe in those odds. He won't succeed against Napergatians with those tactics. We are a little smarter than that jury that found OJ innocent!!! I assure you of that!

So where did Moya committ a sin by asking for Jim to see if Ken or Joe were the same person. It appears Moderator Jim runs the site differently than Host Ted and indirectly he informed Moya of that...end of story!

No big deal, RJ! Really stop being a Drama King and sitting on Jim's shoulders constantly whispering if he made a good decision or did not make a good decision. I doubt he will! I suspect he would never put a biased person like you to moderate in a fair and unbiased manner!

I feel he makes excellent initial decisions and you are your company are constantly pressuring him.

Leave the man alone. If you want to moderate get your own blog site or submit your application to the Sun and apply for the position and see if Moderator Jim is willing to give it up to you.

Try to answer question such as why we need 12 cops on Chicago Ave. and none in the NW Plaza which is just as busy with bar patrons. Joe has said we need 12 cops on Chicago Ave because some lady may come by with a stroller and baby between 11pm and 2:15am while that is unlikely in the NW Plaza. What are your thoughts, RJ?

Joe wants to spend $2106 dollars on Police OT just in case a lady with a stroller and baby decides to visit Chicago Ave. during those 3.25 hours. I have never seen that. But Joe wants to be extra careful just in case it happens.

Yes, Joe wants to spend $219,024 in annual overtime for those 3.25 hours in case a lady strolls by with a baby. How about we build and loan her a home with that money and tell her to stay home with her baby instead of wasting $219,024 dollars in OT to protect her in case of a rare sighting. At least at the end of the year we taxpayers will still own her home and when her baby or child gets older we can sell the house for double the money and contribute it back to the City Fund. The City Fund will have $438,048 instead of 0 dollars for our efforts!

Just thinking out of the box and having a little FUN! And responding in a way that Joe and Company may comprehend since they don't understand dollars and sense.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

PS. $54 X 3.25 X 12 = $2,106 per evening X 104 evenings = #219,024 per year for that 3.25 hours to protect a lady who may come by with a stroller and baby! Unlike, Joe, Ken, RJ, SNT and T.B. us Napergatinas will do the math and not give verbal theories to explain the math.

Moderator Jim; I saw your reply, but still thought it was worth pointing out the hypocrisy on the Napergate side. That and ken isn't Joe.

Moya wrote;
"I would like to ask you to do an IP check on Ken and Joe. They sound a little too much like the same person straining their arms to pat their own back."

"Don't forget to do a check on the IP number of this Ken/Joe blogger.
I suspect it is the same guy but I could be wrong, Mr. Lynch. I appreciate the check!"
______________________________________________________________________________

For the record Moya, Ken and Joe are not the same person. I have known Ken for many years and was the one who told him about these blogs. While Joe and Ken may have many of the same views, that doesn't make them the same person, just as all the long winded repetitive Napergatians aren't. Or are they?

That being said, I find it amusing that you, and other Napergatians, who have accused Jim and the Sun of being Pro City, Pro Establishment, Pro NPD would want him to track down the IP of someone you don't like in some sort of witch hunt. Isn't that same abuse of powers you allege against the NPD that has you all in an uproar? It is highly hypocritical if you ask me, that you want justice for the NG Man, yet would have no problem with the Sun abusing their power to ban or track down users who happen to disagree with your agenda.

Beilen,

So this ID count for every other establishment is based on the Napergate era and not anything current?

Did I read that right?

FWIW, Yes, I love this town and the safe atmosphere the police help create. It's nice to know my kids are safer than almost anywhere else in the chicagoland area.

By Joe on April 27, 2008 11:17 AM
Susan,
Do you have any proof that the other stores are selling to minors or people underage? If only 1 person attempts and they get caught there is only one ID to turn in, right? That does not prove selective enforcement it only shows speculation on your part and a hypothesis and drawn conclusion with a tiny subset of data (one license confiscated-- which has not been proven, only 'stated' by you).

____________________________________________________________________

Joe,
We are not talking about a subset of data here. While you were working 18 hours a day, the Napergate Man's attorneys grabbed all the records of the Naperville Police dept. as pertains to all liquor liceneses thru subpoenas and FOIA for a 2 year period.

The record was clear and it was submitted to many courts who found Naperville was running a Kangaroo Court in City Hall against the Napergate Man for his exemplary efforts against minors. Exemplary is not my word but that of the 3 justices who ruled unanimously for the Napergate Man in the Illinois Appellate Court.

While the average outside of the Napergate Man's stores was a dismal one ID per establishment for every 3 years, many establishments had never confiscated an ID in their entire long history.

If you want to play dumb as Ken is, be my guest. There is no way minors would only go to the Napergate Man's 4 establishments that were scattered all over the suburbs and ignore other licensees including Naperville licensees.

Just like drivers use all streets, minors attempt to use all liquor establishments. It just happens one man was doing his job, won a National Award and is considered a hero by most Napervillians for keeping booze away from our children.

You guys seem to love the police and police work, but if some one cooperates with the police and he is from the Napergate Party you attempt to put down his efforts...how sickening and disgusting you could be so biased!

Don't you realize Joe after a full year bloggin day and night, no one is buying your arguments. You really have to make sense if you want people to accept and respect what you are saying. You have to be reasonbale.

Really, your thought process is not logical. Sadly you don't listen to any Napergatian because he or she is a Napergatian.

Sometimes, I wish the Moderator would step in and tell you what makes sense and what does not make sense. I am sure he knows what make sense.

May I ask you Moderator, do you believe all the minors in the Chicagoland area decided to shop at the Napergate Man's establishments or do you think he just does a better job of nailing those who attempt to purchase at his establishments? And maybe that is why he confiscates so many more fake IDs than all other establishments combined no matter what town he is in.

We get tired of repeating ourselves as you get tired of hearing us. But if you would step in and tell people what is believable and not believable, I think it helps people move forward and to other topics.

Since both sides respect you, Moderator, I would like to hear your opinion on this topic, of minors only going to the Napergate Man's establishments because he has got a "bad" reputation and that is why he is getting almost all the fake IDs in town. Or because only his establishment to the exclusion of all other establishments in Chicagoland are surrounded by DRUNKS!

These are theories presented by the group of five who do not believe in so called "theories." They present impossible theories but want the bloggers to discount the real data obtained from NPD files that show only one store owner in town is obeying the law and confiscating all fake IDS that he gets his hands on!!!

Ken,
I think you must NOT realize that the Napergate Man bought another store on Rt 59 and be begain confiscating IDs there as well as his 1st store. Was that also in a place of DRUNKS?

How come the preivous 2 owners did not have the success of the Napergate Man at that location if it was also located in a place of DRUNKS?

In reality if a police officer never gives any tickets, it is not because he is covering streets where no one ever speeds. That never happens. All streets haver speeders. If he never gave any tickets he would probably be terminiated because he is not putting the effort to catch speeders.

Minors try all liquor establishments. Most minors never read a newspaper so they have no clue what liquor store is tough and which is not. Minors have to experiment.

All liquor stores are tested by minors.

Some liquor stores like the Napergate Man's liquor stores go the extra mile and confiscate the fake IDs. If you were in town at the time of the Napergate Ads, when he ran his full page ads about fake IDs each one was backed by a police report number...that means he went as far as calling the NPD and turning the offenders in. He even took pictures of the culprits and gave the police the license plates of their vehicles. The truth of the matter is the NPD collected the IDs and went through the motions. They never once to the best of my knowledge prosecuted the offenders. I knew the Napergate Man from his stores and he once told me despite 2000 fake IDs confiscated he and his employees never had to show up in court once. That shows you how much the NPD really cares about minors in possession of booze...zilch!!!

When liquor stores or bars never got any fake IDs it is simply because they look the other way and want to make the extra profit. Most of these liquor stores and bars, have establishment posters around election time and that seems to compensate very well for their lack of effort in the war against minors.

Your comments, Ken, are really nonsensical and dispute all the facts. All you do is throw more and more support behind the Napergage Man.

There are certain odds that border on impossibilities. You are playing those impossible odds when disputing what the Napergate Man did for this town.

Do you think those 12 Judges in Las Vegas would have voted him toughest retailer against minors in the NATION because his store was simply surrounded by DRUNKS? What proof do you have his store(s) is surrounded by DRUNKS?

Are you saying both his stores are surrounded by DRUNKS? He had a liquor store in Roselle that also confiscated hundreds of IDs, more than all other stores in Roselle combined. I suppose he had the misfortune again of being surrounded by DRUNKS!

He also owned a nightclub in another town. He got tons of IDs there too. I suppose his nightclub was also surrounded by DRUNKS and minors to the exclusion of any other nightclubs in Chicagoland.

I think it is obvious why so many people think you are a fool on these blogs...you are a FOOL! A BIG FOOL!

Jim, I have no problem with the suggested IP checks. Maybe if you did that, all the libelous posts against me would stop.

It is funny Moya, how you and your ilk can only attack the messenger and add nothing meaningful to the debate. You might want to try a few real facts while you are at it. I have issued this challenge before, but have no problem with doing it again. All attempts to prove me a liar have failed, yet I and my fellow members of the Gang of Five have proved your facts wrong time and time again. It would be nice if you cult members could just come up with actual facts, not hearsay.

Just a friendly reminder to Napergatians that is also posted on the police OT Part II thread...thanks.

Moderator Jim to Sherry: I didn't quite "reverse" my decision, Sherry. All I'm doing is allowing Napergatians to come onto the police OT Part II thread and concentrate their comments on the issue of police overtime and not go off on tangents that include other and all aspects of Napergate. There are lots of other non-Napergatians who wish to comment on the police OT issue as well, and I don't want them to get all confused and alienated by having to read a lot of Napergatian material that has nothing to do with police OT. I'm just trying to accomodate everybody...within limits. Thanks for your - and all Napergatians' cooperation.

What you are telling me, Liquor Man Rick, is that the napergate man has a good location that the local drunks like to buy liquor at. He doesn't have any competition near his south location and obviously is surrounded by people that like to drink...a lot. Sounds like he is a smart business man, not Mr.Popularity. According to the napergatians, a certain restaurant and coffee shop do very well in the downtown area. Does that mean their owners are popular too? Seeing as the coffee shop owner is a corporation, I tend to doubt your methodology.

All of you constantly point out that the napergate man confiscates a lot of fake IDs. Ever wonder why all those minors try to purchase at his store? When I was a kid, stores were known for how easy or hard it was to buy liquor at. For some reason, the napergate man's store must have a reputation for being easy to buy at, which makes me wonder how many fake ids slip by his staff. Wouldn't make sense that the word would be out among the youthful offender crowd if no one was ever able to purchase liquor there? By the way, how many of those offenders had their license suspended as required by law? Maybe that's why so many try to buy there; they know they will just lose the id but not be reported to the police so they lose their license. Who knows, as it is all supposition on my part. Sure seems as the whole story is not being told.

By the way, LRM, if you have proof that your other customers are purposely not doing their jobs as the law states as you seem to imply, how come you and your boss have not done anything to help stop the problem? Same question to you, Susan. Do you have proof that the establishments you mention are breaking the law, or are you just following the napergate habit of libeling someone you don't like?

Joe,

Use common sense!

The odds that one liquor store owner could confiscate 5.5 times as many fake IDs as the other 150 plus other liquor estbalishments combined in town, defies any reason or logic that this is all coincidental.

Through deductive inference, one can easily conclude with almost DNA certainty, approaching a 1 in a billion chance, that something is very wrong in this town.

Stop being in denial!

Go buy your .96 sucker at the Candy Store that was made for suckers like you!!!

Susan,

Do you have any proof that the other stores are selling to minors or people underage? If only 1 person attempts and they get caught there is only one ID to turn in, right? That does not prove selective enforcement it only shows speculation on your part and a hypothesis and drawn conclusion with a tiny subset of data (one license confiscated-- which has not been proven, only 'stated' by you).

Please, Don't speculate, prove.

I proved with the city budget how to determine what police OT costs you. Everyone can calculate it for themselves.

Prove this speculation of yours. WHo were the underage people who purchased goods in these other places you claim?

Joe,
I don't think you read Liquor Man Rick's posts carefully.

It seems obvious to most of us that the Napergate Man is confiscating fake IDs and doing his duty under the law.

It seems obvious to most of us the other liquor licensees especially downtown only need to put posters in their windows supporting the establishment to avoid their duty under the law.

The Napergate Man has been on both the NW side of town and the SE side of town. Both of his liquors stores each nailed 100-200 minors with fake IDs per year.

Other liquor licensees are nailing an average of 1 every 3 years and nobody even winks an eye at them.

This shows me Selectivce Enforcement by the NPD!

Whose always having his license revoked while doing a superb job and being recognized nationally for his efforts? Yes, ironically the Napergate Man!

I guess the balcony establishment(s) downtown can put a poster in their windows supporting the Establishment Party and their parking is subsidized and if they ever have problems with minors or intoxicated individuals they will be treated softly or not at all by the NPD.

It is called CRONYISM, my dear Joe!!!

LMR,

Ok, so he turned in FakeIDs as required by law.
Great. IE: He did his job. It's not police work. He's a retailer.

If he didn't confiscate and turn them in he would be breaking the law. Right?

How does doing one's job as a retailer as required by law set someone above and beyond the normal range of everyone else who does their job and follow the law?

By Ken on April 26, 2008 7:21 PM
Gigi, I have to tell you that the 'extreme popularity' is in your mind, not the public's mind.

____________________________________________________________________

Ken,
I think you are very wrong. He is very well known and popular amongst Naperville residents I know.

Let me tell you a little about his popularity. He is the only retail liquor store on my route of 65 retailers that does NOT ADVERTISE. He has not had to advertize in nearly 7 years because of his popularity and word of mouth. According to wholesale records his business is up each year and last year he had another record year. He seems to do more than twice what the average store does of his size and I attribute it to his popularity. Again he is the only retailer who does 0 advertising on my large route. If you don't believe me check with the Naperville Sun and Daily Herald and they will tell you he has not advertized for 7 or more years.

I suspect numerous Naperville residents shop at his store because they appreciate what he does for soceity. His prices are not low or high but competitive.

Since he does 0 ZILCH ADVERTISING and his prices are not low, one has to conclude he is popular and he has a following that skips other stores to shop at his store. Naperville has over 150 licensees of which I service many and his wholesale purchases are twice those of his competitors based on square footage without having any advertising or sales. All other retailes spend significant amounts on advertising in addition to having many in-house low-ball loss leader items.

That should tell you something about his popularity, Ken!

PS. Based on his ZERO TOLERANCE of sales to minors, his sales are strictly to those over the age of 21. Since most of his competitors average one lonely FAKE ID about every 3 years, I will let you guess or estimate what per centage of their sales may be MINOR BASED!

By Joe on April 26, 2008 8:46 PM
Ken,
I believe the phrase is: What has he done lately?
Most people only worry about the hero of the moment, not last decade. I don't try to strain my arms patting myself on the back for things I did last decade.

**********************************************************

Joe,
Instead of asking your alter ego Ken, what has the Napergate Man done lately, ask others who just may know.

I did report a little over month ago that the Napergate Man turned in 9 Fraudulent ID's to the Mayor. He copied them before turning them in as he likes to document his work.

Since he turned those 9 fake ID's in, he and his employees confiscated another 17 Fake IDs based on the last time I saw him about a week ago. Those 17 fake IDs in roughly a month annualized is 204 fake IDs for the year from only one store.

I was not around in the Napergate Era when he confiscated those 2000 IDs. I am not sure if those IDs being reported on this blog site are from one decade or two decades. If they are from 2 decades it shows he has doubled the number of IDs confiscated per year. If they are from 1 decade, it shows he has remained consistent in his heroic efforts to strip IDs from minors.

If Gigi's post is accurate about the Illionois Appellate Court count of fake IDs, it appears he has doubled the number of IDs confiscated per year if he maintains his current pace.

My understanding from my bosses, there was a need at one time in the past to run those Napergate ads becasue the City of Naperville smeared his reputation by alleging he sold liquor to minors. He used those Napergate ads to expose the former Mayors, City Officials and City Prosecutors who were lying about his efforts.

The current Mayor has never said publicly or privately to anyone that the Napergate Man does not do a good job. He knows the Napergate Man does an excellent job in his battle against minors. What would be the purpose of running Napergate ads....to tell people how many fake IDs he has confiscated? To pat himself on the back like you and Ken need to do!? Unlike you and Ken, he has confidence in himself and has very high self-esteem. He is a quiet man who likes to get the job done quietly.

While he is stripping 200 Fake IDs away from minors per year, and preventing teenagers access to booze and the lethal combination of alcohol and automobiles, may I ask what you and Ken are doing currently or have done in the past for society at large?

Bascially, it is you guys who are patting each other on the back until your shoulders come out for attacking a Naperville Hero.

There is no doubt the Napergate Man has saved many lives the last 27 years since he has been a retail liquor operator. How many lives have you and Ken saved? NONE!!!

According to Gigi's numbers which I recall being close to the accurate numbers Ameena posted, he confiscates over 85% of the fake IDs on the streets of Naperville in possesion of minors. The other 150 licences combined, confiscate less than 15% of all the fake IDs on the streets of Naperville in possession of minors.

You guys are quick to praise the NPD for any police work it does. The Napergate Man does police work and you criticize him. It shows how biased you guys are. Does it really surprise you men that you can not get anyone to see your viewpoint on these blogs?

It does not surprise the rest of us! I think you men need to get lives instead of making fools of yourselves on these blogs on a daily basis.

You 2 would be wise to take a self imposed time-out from this blog site for a week or two and think about what you are really doing for yourselves and society....NOTHING!!!

Mr. Lynch,

I would like to ask you to do an IP check on Ken and Joe. They sound a little too much like the same person straining their arms to pat their own back.

If you read these blogs Liquor Man Rick and others have reported that the Napergate Man has continued to confiscate fake IDs from minors unabated. He turns them into the Mayor on a consistent basis!

I suggest, if Joe/Ken doubt Liquor Man Rick, they give the Mayor a call.

So the Napergate Man continues to work hard in this decade like he worked hard in prior decades.

He just does not seek recognition and constant rises like this Joe/Ken fella who seems to lack self esteem and is apparently saddled with an inferior complex.

The Napergate Man just does his job day in and day out!

The Napergate Man probably does or did work 18 hours a day to get where he got and achieve all he accomplished in his life.

I doubt anyone but a fool would believe Joe/Ken worked 18 hours a day as claimed. Anyone who has to pat himself on the back on this site repeatedly really needs attendance by a psychiatrist for his lack of self esteem and inferior complex behavior!

Don't forget to do a check on the IP number of this Ken/Joe blogger.
I suspect it is the same guy but I could be wrong, Mr. Lynch. I appreciate the check!

Ken,
I don't like responding to your nonsense. I do not live in either Huntington Estates or Pembroke Commons.

In my subdivision of Ashbury over 75% of the people know about him and his Napergate Series of ads. The few that don't know about him are finding out about him through this blog site.

Your nonsense defies all logic. He published 44 Napergate ads many times 3 times each in the Naperville Sun with 22,000 cirulation. He published many non-Napergate ads in the same newspaper also 2 or 3 times each. In all the ads he identified himself as the owner of Extra Value Liquors...not the Napergate Man!
It does not take a genious to figure out the owner of Extra Value Liquors was renamed the Napergate Man on this blog site. Since the owner of Extra Value Liquors wrote the Napergate ads it is not a great leap of faith to believe the Napergate Man is/was the owner of Extra Value Liquors for most of us residents who actually have heads above our shoulders.

In my subdivision more than half the homes subscribed to the Naperville Sun in that Napergate ERA. We also read it and still read it.

Basically, you are saying no one in your subdivision ever bought the Naperville Sun, heard about it or read it. If that is not a lie, I don't know what a lie is.

The man has owned liquor stores in town that are open late for nearly 30 years. We have all been forced to go his his liquor stores at one time or another and gotten to meet him. He owns a plaza that he hangs around that is attended by thousands of people per week.

Well if your subdivision does not ever read the Naperville Sun or heard of the Napergate Man, it is obviously not in Naperville.

It sounds like you may be a Naperville Cop who lives in Romeoville or Bolingbrook where they would have not heard of the Napergate Man. But to say you live in Naperville and surveyed a wide spectrum of people and no one heard of the Napergate Man is an utter falsehood.

It just shows you are in personal denial. Keep in mind this Napergate Man sent 11,000 to 12,000 voters to the election booths to vote for previously unheard of candidates who booted out 4 Establishment candidates right out of office in 1999. And you are telling me a man who has been in a supervisory position in Naperville Government never heard of him!

That same man you talked to, probably had something to do with the 1 to 2 million costs of the Napergate Trials, that are to this date unaccounted for. He probably made sure we never heard of those massive legal costs either. I guess if you guys don't like someone in this town, you pretend he does not exist.

Could this guy be the same guy that told Joe, he moved to Arizona! If this guy is a supervisor or head of a department, why was he not at those Council Meetings the Napergate Man filled and spoke in during 1997-2001 while the Spring Green Battles were in full swing.

I suppose all those Napergate events sponsored by the Napergate Man are hallucinations we are going through. I do believe it is you who are hallucinating my dear friend, Ken!

A liquor store owner who confiscates more IDs than a 100 other establishments combined times a large multiple and wins a National Award for his excellence is not just following the law...he is a Naperville and Amercian Hero!

It seems like jealously has gotten the better of you, Joe, SNT, RJ and Mr. Applewhatever. You guys are real sickos just as the Napergatians have described you. You are filthy unconsionable liars!
I feel confident calling you liars because while I have not posted before today I have read your lies way to often even while attempting to skip over them.

You took an unofficial poll and found out no one every heard of the Napergate Man in Naperville....how unbelievable.

I suggest the Naperville Sun take an OFFICIAL POLL allowing each person only to vote once and ask the residents if they ever heard of the Napergate Man or not.

I will bet you my house for your house, that their result will disprove the unofficial results of your poll. You are as biased as they come, Ken! Do you think you are capable of taking an unbiased poll and reporting its true results? Give us bloggers a break.

I suspect the Moderator has left you men unbanished on his thread site purely for the comical and entertainment value you sometimes provide with your hilariously untrue comments!

The group of five does not seem to get it. Their methods of deceit and lies has not gotten them one suppoerter. The Napergatians rap up new supporters each day.

These names of the last 2 days are all new to me who has been reading these posts for a while.

John

Gigi

Stuart

Portia

Wendy

Ramos

Irene

Thompson

Martin

Joan

Shale

And many Anonymous's unknowns

While neither of us have IP tracking abilities, the Naperville Sun does have them and proved to us they have them. They can even track addresses if they wanted to. Are you telling us all these 500 Napergatian bloggers don't live in Naperville? If not where do they live? Tell us Ken, please!!! Maybe they are all blogging from Mars!

Joe,I believe that would be nothing.
Most people, including the NG Man know how to get on with their lives. I bet even Abby was over it by the next morning. Bob on the other hand probably had sore feet for a few days.

Ken,

I believe the phrase is: What has he done lately?

Most people only worry about the hero of the moment, not last decade.

I don't try to strain my arms patting myself on the back for things I did last decade.

Gigi, I have to tell you that the 'extreme popularity' is in your mind, not the public's mind. I have been taking an unofficial poll of friends and relatives in Naperville, and so far no one knows who the napergate man is. Granted, this only shows that I know a lot of people that don't know about him, but I think those I have questioned represent a good cross section of Naperville. One of those I questioned has a supervisory position in one of the government agencies of Naperville, has been in that position for over 10 years, and still does not know who he is.

What you consider a great movement is really just a small percentage of Naperville citizens. Most citizens probably don't consider a liquor store owner following the law a great hero.

RJ,

Let me prove you wrong.

1. The Napergate Man won the National Kylix Award while competing against 5000 contestants at the Mirage Hotel in Las Vegas in the 1990s. He competed against the champions of each state who were selected from the original 5000. That makes him a National Hero of sorts. He is the only one in the nation to have one such a contest as it was only held once due to its difficulty unlike a beauty pageant contest which is relatively easy to hold since what you see is what you get.

2. If the Napergate Man is a nobody in town, than Mayor Pradel is a nobody in town. He was able to effect every election he partciapted in by getting 2 to 4 of his endorsed candidates in office. Name anyone else in town who has ever done that. He even started a Napergate Party to compete with the estbalishment who ran the town uncontested for 165 years.

3. He ran a Napergate Series of ads that put City Hall on watch for more than a decade and kept it honest. Name anyone else who has ever done that!

4. He confiscated nearly 2000 documented fraudulent IDs that we know about which is more than 5.5 times all other establishments combined over 2 decades. The Illinois Appellant Judges reviewed 2 years and found he had over 200 for that period while all other licensees in Naperville had about 35.

5. By confiscating all these fake IDs, many adults writing today on this blog site are able to write because they were not killed drinking and driving. 2000 minors with fake IDs if left alone can provide booze to every minor in town. He took it upon himself to do the job that his fellow retailers and the Naperville Police Department were unwilling or uncapable of doing. You may dispute the information in 4. and 5. but it came right out of the files of the NPD that were subpoened by his attorneys under the Freedom of Information Act.

I think he is considered a hero by all Napervillians and Napergatians equally for his actions in saving lives. I do not know of one Napervillian who ever complained about his heavy handedness in confiscating IDs which amounted to police work.

The difference between him and the NPD is he never made an exception for one person regardless of who he or she was. If they showed him a fake ID, it was gone and the NPD was called.

If you followed those Napergate ads, you also realized the NPD took the IDs, took license plates he got for them, took police reports but rarely if ever filed charges against any of these 2000 minors.

Instead they waited for him to make a mistake or two every ten years and revoked his license. That should tell you something about why most Napervillians and Napergatians support him.

His only enemies seem to be the Gang of Five who are most likely NPD police officers that are jealous of his extreme popularity in town!!!

Moderator Jim,

Since this post goes in the direction of the "cultural funds", I don't know if I could begin asking funds questions not related to police overtime II where I copied this piece from.

Is it OK if we play football with the cultural fund on the Napergate/free speach blog?

Is there any way you can turn on threads on this blog to make navigation any easier. Still one giant blog with threads to comment on?

Thanks

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
By Anonymous on April 26, 2008 2:59 PM

Like anyone else I would expect that there is always going to be some overtime associated with police work. I do not however think it is an unreasonable expectation that those entrusted with managing the police payroll and approving overtime be operate within policies that will prevent waste and abuse.

That was until I received the current May-June 2008 issue of Bridges in the mail today from the City of Naperville. After reading the front page article on how the city allocates SECA funds all I can ask is WHAT IN THE HELL IS GOING ON?

Let me see if I've got this straight:
1. The city collects a city wide !% food tax
2. The city decides which charities are to benefit by receiving proceeds from this tax.
3. The city awarded the Exchange Club and Jaycees $100,000 for police and fire protection at the Ribfest and Last Fling.
4. Then the city charges the Exchange Club and Jaycees for the overtime cost of police and fire protection.
5. The overtime is charged against the police department budget but the money is deposited into the general fund. And in the same breath the city council is telling the police chief to reduce overtime expense by 5%.

THERE ARE TWO ASPECTS OF THIS TRANSACTION THAT I FIND PERSONALLY DISTURBING. I don't know if they are illegal, but they sure look suspicious.

First, the city collects a SECA tax. The same people who get to vote to decide on what will be taxed and at what rate then get to vote at a later date who will get the proceeds of that tax. In this case the city collected $100,000 in tax then "gave" it to the Exchange Club and the Jaycees and then turned around and billed them for the same money they just gave them. The net effect is that the city council laundered $100,000 from a special tax thru these non-profit organizations into the general fund. Why in the world are all these transactions necessary? Why can't the tax pay for the police cost directly without all the need for the accounting and billing?

Second, the city gave the Exchange Club and the Jaycees $100,000. Ribfest is a 4 day event. Last Fling is a 3 day event. 7 days total. I believe I read in a Naperville Sun that police overtime costs were about $54.00 per hour. Let's see... $100,000 divided by $54.00 equals 1,852 manhours of overtime. Ok, then 1,851 manhours divided by 7 days of work equals 265 hours worked each day of the event. That follows that 265 hours divided by 8 hours in a shift equals 33 police and firemen working every single day of Ribfest and Last Fling. Are you kidding me 33 police and firemen? Yes, these are large events. But putting this into perspective the normal sworn officers on duty for all of Naperville... that is 24 hours a day, 7 days a week is somewhere between 36 and 38. And for one event in a city park downtown we need 33?

It is also interesting to note that the City of Naperville dictates how many officers are needed for these events. Call me a skeptic, but I'm just willing to place an extremely high wager that the police union is pretty highly involved in helping decide these staffing numbers. There is no doubt we need additional police and fire services for special events, but 33?

There is a big difference between responsible staffing levels and sucking the hind tit. Yeah, the big sucking sound you are hearing right now is coming from 1350 Aurora Avenue. It's the sound of knowing you've just gotten busted with your hand in the cookie jar.

Maybe the NGM was arrested because in the grand scheme of things, outside of the small group of Napergatians, he is nothing more than an average citizen and was treated accordingly. I think that is the issue here, they can't believe their hero is nothing outside their little group.

Gee Stuart, does this mean I'm not going to make your Christmas card list? By the way, if you are going to libel me by calling me an idiot, sick, psycho, liar, you should have some proof. As usual, if a cult member has nothing new or factual to say, he has to attack the messenger.

Just as you claim that many people were let go on suspended licenses, I know several that were arrested after their licenses were suspended for emissions violation. As I said around 600 or so posts ago, one was my sister who had filled out the proper paperwork for a car she had sold. The cops didn't care about her story either, as the computer said her license was suspended. I find it unbelievable that a cop would let someone continue to drive on a suspended license.

By the way, Stuart, did Chief Dial's daughter (if he has one) continually break the law like the napergate man's daughter did? Did Sergeant Bell's offspring wantonly break the law? If their daughters, or the daughters of any other city official were not chronic offenders like the napergate man's daughter, your point is moot. Unless you can prove that any of the officials mentioned continuously by the cult have had their licenses suspended due to the criminal actions of their offspring, your point is moot. What you suppose might happen and reality are two different things.

The only people that are looking foolish here Stuart, are the napergate cult members that want special treatment for their idol.

Portia,

You now have everyone confused:

"We don't want preferential treatment for the Napergate Man."

"We just want everyone in town to be treated equally."

"We don't want double standards."

etc.

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I know you all will) but if the above is true then why all the fuss about what happened to the NG man?

He was treated in accordance with the law. People seem upset because they think he should have been shown MORE discretion than he was. But above, you claim you do not want preferential treatment, but you are mad because he wasn't shown any.

Which is it?

I don't hear people complaining that the police should arrest more people like they did the NGM, instead I keep hearing about how they SHOULD NOT HAVE arrested the NGM for breaking the law (whether he knew he was at the time or not). That's preferential treatment because may people get arrested all the time for DWS. Read the police blotter section of this paper.

Saying it is discrimination that he was arrested is not true unless you wanted preferential treatment to be shown to him. As it was, he got none (which you deduce above is OK since you write that you do not want preferential treatment for him) and people are complaining hand over fist about it because you got what you asked for: not showing him preferential treatment.

Either you want him shown preferential treatment or you want to make sure everyone else is always arrested for it (eliminating anyone else's preferential treatment). Right?

Portia wrote; "We don't want anyone in town spending 4 hours in a jail cell for a .40 cent toll violation committed by his child or her child that he or she was clueless about."

_______________________________________________________________

Again Portia, the NPD doesn't care why the license is suspended, they just know it is suspended.

If you have issue with a suspension for 4 unpaid tolls, not one, then take it up with the Toll Authority, Secretary of State, or whomever in Springfield gave passed the law giving the Toll Authority the power to have licenses suspended.

In reality, the easiest way to avoid this situation entirely is make sure you pay the tolls and teach your children the same. And if you blow a toll off, for whatever reason, call the Toll Authority and take care of it.

Stuart wrote; "They don't have trouble with the Napergate Man spending a night in jail as long as Chief Dial and Council Member Wehrli also spend the night in jail."

Somehow I doubt the Chief or Councilman would be driving around downtown late at night on a suspended license like the NG Man was.

Victoria and Wendy,

The reason I readjusted my math is because I found I made an error. I realize that is a foreign concept to many on here, to admit they made a mistake and correct it, but I do it.

Property taxes do not make up 100% of the city funding. If they did then you can find your 'fair share' of property taxes for any item in the city budget by multiplying your taxes paid to the city by the percentage that line-item is out of the city budget as a whole. It's simple fraction mathematics (equivalent fractions) that kids learn in the 3rd or 4th grade.

Since the property taxes make up only 16% of the entire city funding, we have to take that into account (remember in equivalent fractions: whatever you do to one side you do to the other to keep both sides equivalent).

My original $6 and change had the error of assuming property taxes were 100% of the city budget funding. They are not, so to find the equivalent of police OT (.8% of the entire city budget) we have to again multiply that percentage (of how much of a percentage property taxes are (16%) in the entire city budget (100%) )to the taxes paid to find out exactly how much of my property taxes go towards police overtime.

Again, the formula is: TaxesPaidToCity X .16 (property taxes are 16% of the entire city budget) X .008 (.8% is how much police OT is in the entire city budget)

If you can not wrap your head around equivalent fractions then I suggest hanging out more at Nichols library as there are many math tutors there on a near constant basis helping kids out with their schoolwork.

I find it funny that people complain about property taxes which make up only 16% of the city revenue and further complain about a line item (police overtime) that only makes up .8% of the entire city budget.

Personally, based on what I have read on here the past half year, I think people just hate police officers and will spend day after day pretending something is a huge problem when the math does not substantiate that claim one bit.

Victoria, Wendy, Caroline and crowd: Grab your property tax bills and post up what you pay the city of Naperville. We can all figure out just what your 'fair share' is that you are paying for police OT via your property taxes. Again, if you bring those bills to the Sun offices and a picture ID proving they are YOUR real estate bills and Moderator Jim can verify it, I will pay you your 'fair share' of it.

My 'fair share' of police OT worked out to just under a dollar. What does yours work out to?

Anonymous and Downtown,

Do you know the nominal fee paid for those 75 spots worth 3 million dollars?

If you go with Randy's more accurate estimate of $75,000 per parking spot, you get $5,625,000 of value given away for this nominal fee you refer to mostly at the cost of residential taxpayers and non-downtown businesses!

Which building are you talking about?

Who sold it and who bought it?

Do you know what the healthy profit was?

It does sound like cronyism to the nth degree.

The US Attorney is always investigating Chicago cronyism.

At some point the US Attorney is going to have to realize that Naperville is now a large city also filled with CRONYISM!!!

By Ken on April 26, 2008 12:12 PM
Well, Portia, since you are claiming discrimination, can you prove that anyone else was let go when it was found out that their license was suspended?

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Apparently, you are relatively new on these threads.

Many citizens came on these blogs and stated they were let go by the NPD for license suspensions.

Most were not allowed to drive any further except for one who was allowed to go straight to his mechanic per his request.

The majority were allowed to turn themselves in to the NPD voluntarily for booking withhout the need of handcuffs and jail time.

I can recall at least 10 such incidents from reading on these blogs the last 6 months.

I have heard similar stories from neighbors and friends.

Thankfully, I have never had an emission failure of my own since I trade my car in every 3 years. However, I don't believe people should be arrested due to emission failures when one is attempting to fix their car.

I also don't think running 4 tolls in your life makes you chronic offender. The Napergate Man's daughter drove 6 months before getting another violation after the initial 3. It just seems like she got caught without change after 6 months of paying her tolls.

Also, it seems like she had no more toll violations after those 2002 incidents. The arrest of her Dad was in 2006 and it showed no toll violation for 4 straight years.

The fact nothing was done by the Toll Authority for 4 to 5 years and suddenly they are suspending with no notice just seems crazy to me. The Napergate Man told Sgt. Bell he knew nothing about these toll violations and instead of being granted discretion on the positive side he was granted discretion on the negative side.

Sgt. Bell followed those lenghty trials. He knew that all these courts found the Napergate Man to be credible. He also knew that these lengthy trials found his fellow officers(possibly himself) not to be credible. So why not give him the benefit of the doubt since so many court found him honest while finding his fellow police officers dishonest.

The Napegate Man was not asking for break from the suspension violation. He was just asking for a courtesy to take his dog home and turn himself in voluntarily for booking.

I don't think he was being unreasonable.

I think you are being unreasonable Ken by going against nearly a 99% majority on this Napergate Thread who think he should have been allowed to turn himself in voluntarily without the need of handcuffs and jailing.

Keep making yourself a fool, Ken, if you so choose. I think all you are doing is bringing more and more support for the Napergate Man...and less and less support for the Naperville Police Department!

What are the parking grants worth?

One recent building paid a nominal fee and received the rights to approx. 75 spaces. Using what may the low ball number of $40,000 per space, the grant is worth:

$40,000 x 75 = $3,000,000

The building was sold a few weeks after the grant at a very healthy profit.

Follow the money!

By Ken on April 26, 2008 11:34 AM
Walter, the napergatians have all stated unequivocally on the overtime thread that every scofflaw should be ticketed, whether they be a cop, a teacher, a nurse, a doctor, a priest, etc. The only person they think should be let go immediately is the napergate man.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Ken,
You are the biggest liar these threads have ever seen. They never said the Napergate Man is the only one who should be let go immediately.

They want everyone to be treated equally.

They don't have trouble with the Napergate Man spending a night in jail as long as Chief Dial and Council Member Wehrli also spend the night in jail.

I think the whole town knows this wimp Sergeant Greg Bell would have never dared arrest Chief David Dial if his daughter ran a toll and throw him in jail for 4 hours over such a petty matter.

Neither Sergeant Greg Bell or Chief David Dial is above the law. Since they would have not treated the Napergate Man as they would have liked to be treated or treated each other in similar circumstances, they should both resign. They are both wimps who discriminate and we don't need them on our professional police department.

The City Council needs to pass a resolution immediately and call for all this discrimination practiced by the NPD to stop immediately and be halted henceforth!

If they don't pass this resolution immediately, I personally believe the grass roots that is developing in town, partially on this blog site, is going to throw them out of office in the NEXT ELECTION!

It is their choice as to whether they stay in office or not!

Even idiot sicko psycho Establishment Supporter Ken is now admitting the cops are acting like God and not only think they are the law but above the law. This is coming from an Establishment Guy within the hour!

The City Council needs to take immediate action at the next session or risk being ousted in the next election!

Anonymous and Downtown,

I agree with your assessment of Ken that his mission in life is to harass the Napergate Posters. He seems to be a trouble maker. Moderator Jim needs to reign him in at some point.

However, you may be wrong about Mayor Geroge Pradel. The Napergate Man and better than 95% of his Napergatian supporters like him and respect him for his honesty and fairness.

They just would like to see him push the other 5 establishment council members in the right direction such as stopping discrimination in the name of discretion. It would be nice to see him show some courage and speak out publicly against discrimination. It seems the legal department muzzled him and he accepted being muzzled instead of resisting!!!

Also, it would be nice if Mayor Pradel would stop the subsidizing of the downtown landlords. I believe Mayor Pradel did not comprehend what happened. I feel he was fooled by the estbalishment into believing this was a good thing without realizing the financial consequences on himself, the residential taxpayers or the non-downtown businesses owners.

If the Mayor enjoys snow plowing, I can understand. But he should be able to keep his money and go on a nice vacation instead of subsidizing the Promenade Building, the Barnes and Nobles Building and the Moser Nothern Trust Building with some of his hard earned dollars. He needs to put his foot down and tell the Establishment Folks the free rides are over in town and all rides now cost money!!!

No one gets a free ride at the Last Fling. No one should get a free ride and be subsidized in a downtown parking deck at taxpayer expense either!

Well, Portia, since you are claiming discrimination, can you prove that anyone else was let go when it was found out that their license was suspended? All the inane babble about why the license was suspended is just that, inane babble. The cop's computer does not say that a person's license is suspended because his offspring are chronic lawbreakers.

I guess what I don't get is why you all constantly claim discrimination with no proof, yet want others to accept it as fact.

One more point

While the City (and schools)is increasing taxes to pay for all of the goodies, our major employers are pulling their high paying jobs out of Naperville and shipping them to lower cost parts of the USA and overseas. Every property tax increase becomes someones need for a bigger pay raise. I know engineers that have bailed on Naperville with no regrets.

While I don't want to disparage the back office jobs that are being brought into our office buildings, most do not pay enough to buy any house in Naperville.

By Ken on April 25, 2008 6:43 PM
Last, but not least, all of you napergatians seem to want everyone to be ticketed or arrested no matter who they are. Everybody, that is, except for the naprergate man. When he is arrested, all of the sudden it is discrimination. Seems like the napergatians are the ones with the double standard.

____________________________________________________________________

No, Ken! You really don't get it.

We just want everyone in town to be treated equally.

We don't want double standards.

We don't want preferential treatment for the Napergate Man.

We don't want everyone in town ticketed for anything and everything.

We don't want anyone in town spending 4 hours in a jail cell for a .40 cent toll violation committed by his child or her child that he or she was clueless about.

We simply can not accept discrimination in the name of discretion!

What really don't you get, Ken!

Walter, the napergatians have all stated unequivocally on the overtime thread that every scofflaw should be ticketed, whether they be a cop, a teacher, a nurse, a doctor, a priest, etc. The only person they think should be let go immediately is the napergate man.

Of course Mr.Popo acted like he is a god; that's what most cops feel they are. It is very rare to find a cop who does not think he not only is the law, but is also above the law. The only difference between cops and gangs are that the cops have nicer uniforms and are legally able to carry guns. I have also known a few Wherli's and Moser's that did get tickets from the NPD, although that was years ago. Personally, I think there is a 90% chance that they still would today...the same chance that everyone else has. As no one here as offered any actual proof otherwise, that line of thought is just speculation, and a moot point.

Niefmi, where did the police make a mistake? They arrested a man whose license was suspended. They did their job. My only question is why the napergate man did not give the keys to his paramilitary vehicle to Bob so he could follow him to the police station and give him a ride home? By the way, how do you know that the police were not busy and intentionally held him for four hours? Sounds like another supposition to me. By the way, the police are not a taxi service, and Bob was left in the middle of town, not the middle of nowhere.

Colleen and Victoria, Joe's numbers are based on the actual tax bill he received and additional research that shows how much of the town's budget is financed by residential property taxes. How hard is that to understand?

I have a question for all the cult members. Why is it that you want to ban all the people that disagree with you from this site? Ralph urged my arrest by the police and the FBI in the overtime thread. My understanding of the constitution is that it allows everyone free speech, within the rules set forth by the owners of this site, not just the cult members. I don't know what charge Ralph wanted to trump up against me, but it is telling that he thinks it should be done. Colleen also urges banning of Joe, and his arrest. Are you people that afraid of the truth that you constantly have to urge the suppression of the truth?

My two cents

Ken obviously has it in for this board and patrols the other boards looking for Napergate posters to harass. If Ken is not Mr. X or the lawyer for Mr. X, he should ask for a job. I'm not going to spend any more of my time responding to his red herring arguments. His repeated position is that the rest of the City owes money to the downtown. I got it.

I have seen Mayor Pradel bashed in some of the postings, this is totally uncalled for and not productive. I believe he is doing what he believes is best for the City. Do I have policy issue differences with him, yes giant ones on some topics. If you want to pick a policy apart and have a better idea, have at it. This guy is one of the most responsive at City Hall.

As to how much any developer is worth, who cares. Whether they have one dollar or one hundred million, I don't believe they should be getting free parking for their buildings while the rest of the City pays for it.

My observation is that a few benefit disproportionately from City grants, rules and spending, my hope is that the City is past the stage where a few good old boys get to divvy up the goodies. I'm hoping to help it along.

My suggestion is to follow the money with respect to parking on all of the buildings that have been built in the last 8 years in the downtown. The info is there for the taking in the City Council minutes with respect to the parking space grants. Property records are available at the Township office and in Wheaton. Corporate records are probably available at the Library and definitely at Wheaton Courthouse.

Follow the money, don't waste time responding to red herring arguments designed to waste your valuable time.

Joey,

What credibility do you have left on this blog site after you analysis of how much Police OT is costing each household? You went from $6 dollars, to less than a dollar, to I don't know, to mumble jumble, to you figure it out on your own, since it is too complicated....wowweee!!!

Have you ever gone back and read your posts, Joey?

Why don't you think or do some research before you write?

Maybe since you don't know how to compute you should give a call to the City Finance Director and ask him to compute the cost of Police OT to us residents.

You come on like being a smartalic who does not know what he is talking about on these blog sites!

Is that the image you want for yourself? Is that the legacy you want recorded on your tombstone one day when you finally leave this beautiful earth?

I suggest you stop blogging and let your legacy be your ability to work 18 hours a day for decades and having never seen a Napergate ad in twenty years because all you did was work! Maybe it is simply to late to catch up on City Politics, Joey, after working those massive hours for so long.

Leave City Politics for those who are qualified to handle them!!!

It seems like since the last time I blogged the Napergatians added 3 more major important issues to their agenda besides the Napergate Man's arrest...

1. Discretion being used as a cover for Discrimination.

2. Excessive and unaccounted for Naperville Police Overtime.

3. Subsidized Downtown Parking costing us over $60 bucks per household.

So much is being blamed on Police Chief David Dial. How come know noone is blaming the City Council who won't allow him to hire more police officers to reduce this insane OVERTIME.

The council made the stupid laws that you can not even begin looking for a new cop until after a cop retires, quits or is fired. Sounds like a stupid law by by the same dumb council that voted to transfer City Phone Services to MCI while forgetting 7600 employees of ATT are the heart of the economy of Naperville. Same council that wanted to shove a residential commercial center into the subdivion of the Napergate Man. Sorry forgot its name!

I think the problem in this town is the City Council. It gives Chief Dial all the wrong directives. Let us vote out this council and see if we can get one that can give all the right directives to the Police Chief.

If at that point, the Police Chief, can not implement the proper directives, it would be fair to ask for his RESIGNATION!

But first things first. We need to fix the council who sets policy for the NPD! The council has to be held responsible for all the chaos in town. They could easily order Chief Dial to stop discetion/discrimination. They have not because it benefits them and they enjoy the priviledge of never being ticketed for speeding or being intoxicated.

I am sure you all heard about that Naperville Officer that was nailed for being intoxicated. But who really got nailed. The NPD officer who busted him for violating professional courtesy which is to never give a fellow officer a ticket even if he is driving intoxicated on our streets and endangering out kids playing street hockey and other games in the streets.

Let us keep building the Napergate Movement and try to rid ourselves of all these Establishment Council Members by next year. I hope many Napergatians bloggers step up and run for City Council.

I would endorse Randy, Ameena, Realtor Ryan, and Maryann as a great slate of Napergate Candidates to run in 2009. Liebert would be great but I understand he lives in Chicago for now and may not qaualify as a candidate due to lack of residency.

Does anyone have any other choices? We need to start getting our slate ready and make them household names on these blog sites and hopefully the Napergate Man will resurface and give them a final push in his Napergate Ads.

The only way to fix policy in this town is to take over the council!

That should be our goal!

By Joe on April 25, 2008 7:43 PM
Peggy,

I would love it if Naperville actually broke down the police budget further by showing how much of what revenue sources make up the police budget. Since they do not do accounting that way we have to overlay the Revenue by Source percentage for the general fund (where the police budget comes from) from the PDF I referenced and apply it to everything in the city, be it police overtime, snow plowing, fire service, etc.

===================================================================

Joe,
First you say it is $6.00 per household. Then you say it is $.96 cents per household. Than you say it really can't be computed. Then you give us the above paragraph which really sounds disoriented at best!

I hope you understand why the Napergatians continue to gain support on this blog site, while your group continues to lose support. Voters want simple answers put in layman's language. What percentage of voters are accountants? Less than 1%! Who are you appealing to with your nonsensical theories that change by the hour let alone by the day.

I agree with the Napergatians. Take a small portion of police overtime and assume the non-downtown businesses who are not subsidized pay for it.

The remainining $3,150,000 dollars is paid by the 45,000 households. Thus they are paying at least 60 bucks per household.

Many businesses in town are owned by Napervillians. Thus some Napervillians are being screwed twice by this horrendous police OT. And who says the out of town owned businesses are happy about their share of this OT? They are probably upset, too, about unnecessary higher taxes generated by Chief Dial who has no control on his department ot its OT nightmare.

Do you think the Napergate Man who owns a shopping center in town and liquor stores, is happy that he is paying for this police overtime through his businesses and commercial real estate in addition to his home? Do you think DF who also owns businesses and real estate in town is happy he is also being screwed over 3 or 4 times for this police OT who is always hollering about in the City Council meetings?

Joe, you have to accept this police OT is probably costing you over 60 bucks a year if you only own a home. Of course we all understand it is 40 bucks for a small home and 80 dollars for a large home. Please don't keep insulting out intelligence with your remarks. Don't you understand what "average" means, Joe?

We also know what "median" means so please don't bring that in the discussion either!

Just compute a number based on your "genius" and let us have it. Let the dice roll! Stop stalling!

Moderator Jim and Host Ted,

I think this whole thing escalated when the Napergate Man asked if he could have DISCRETION. I think it was his right to ask for DISCRETION.

He did not cuss the cop out. He did not disobey any orders. He only asked for something that we all have learned is available and permissible...DISCRETION!!!

Why would Sgt. Greg Bell flip out because one asked a simple question?

I think he even flipped out more just because the Napergate Man stated he knows the Police Chief allows DISCRETION.

It is almost like the Napergate Man was not to invoke or know about this DISCRETION.

Since he knew all about it, they showed him how DISCRETION can work.

They showed him the opposite extreme in how it is suppose to work.

Basically, they were telling him we have DISCRETION but it is not for people like you who took ads to expose our corruption in the Naperville Sun to the world. They were sending him a message that whenever we can get you on anything, it is PAYBACK time for the NPD! Don't bother asking for DISCRETION as we will make it worse for you!

That is how I see it. It seems rather clear to me.

Boy Ken, you are becoming a bigger handful than Joe.

You guys almost seem like clones. It just seemed like Joe could not keep up so he cloned himself and made you.

There was no reason for the Napergate Man to spend 4 hours in a jail cell and be separated from his dog, Abby, and have his friend dumped in the middle of nowhere. I don't believe his friend was from Naperville.

The man had 100 bucks on him. If the police had any manners or sense they would have driven him for a quick bonding and brought him back to his friend and Abby!

Once they brought him back in a half hour, his friend could have driven himself, the Napergate Man and his dog home. What is so hard about that?

Why did they keep him for 4 hours if they were not busy?

The police acted irrationally that evening. They made something big by mishandling it.

As John Q. Public hinted if his plate was the only one run that evening of all parked cars in downtown Naperville we have another million dollar lawsuit on our hands being paid from taxpayer funds.

Since Joe is talking in funny language with 32 or 36, I suspect he found those many plates run of moving vehicle for probable cause. I suspect he found no plates of parked vehicles run or he would have posted it for us to read.

So I think we have a serious problem that is going to cost us taxpayers.

I just hope the NPD pays for the DF and Napergate Man cases by taking pay cuts. They created the problems...they should pay...not the taxpayers!!!

Peggy,

The cost to you depends on your taxes that go into the City of Naperville general fund. That is tied directly to your assessed value of your property. Those with more assessed value pay more $$ for police overtime (or anything else in the budget) than someone who has a lower assessed value and therefore pays in less money.

I would love it if Naperville actually broke down the police budget further by showing how much of what revenue sources make up the police budget. Since they do not do accounting that way we have to overlay the Revenue by Source percentage for the general fund (where the police budget comes from) from the PDF I referenced and apply it to everything in the city, be it police overtime, snow plowing, fire service, etc.

I'm sorry if this doesn't sound simple to you, but it's the only proper way we can accurately account for who pays what and how much using property taxes.

WHAT IS THE DARN NUMBER JOE! I READ THESE DAMN THREADS EVERYDAY AND ALL YOU DO IS CIRCLE AROUND LIKE A DUMB CLOWN TRYING TO CATCH HIS TAIL.

I AM SICK AND TIRED OF YOUR THEATRICAL ANTICS.

I CAN NOT BELIEVE THE MODERATOR ALLOWS YOU TO LOITER AROUND THIS BLOG SITE.

ALL YOU ARE IS A LOITERER!

TO BAD THE MODERATOR DOES NOT HAVE ARREST POWERS.

HE SHOULD ARREST YOU AND THROW THE KEYS AWAY.

YOU ARE A NUISANCE TO SOCIETY AT LARGE!!!

Ken,
The fateful night was a coin from Host Ted and it helps identify the night so we don't have to be too specific.

I don't think Napergatians want everyone ticketed or not ticketed.

They want fairness in ticketing...that is a reasonable request in my opinion.

If you followed Police Officer Mr. Popo on the other thread he was almost acting like God Almighty with his actions he called discretion in deciding how he should exercise his arrogance on the streets of whatever town he worked for.

He was not going to give any doctor a ticket because he was afraid he might be his surgeon one day...is that insanity Ken or not?

I think what Napergatians feel is the establishment folks like Wehrlis, Dials, Pradels, and Mosers would have not been arrested and incarcerated in similar circumstances that involved the Napergate Man. I tend to agree! Honestly, what do you think, Ken? Try to answer instead of being evasive, other wise we will debate in circles.

I think they are right and that is why they are pi$$ed off. I don't see why you are having such a hard time getting it, Ken!

Mr. Joe,

All you do is confuse and confuse.

Now that you say you computed wrong, what is the true cost per household of overtime.

It seemed like the Napergatians reduced it from 70 bucks to 60 bucks by factoring in that non-downtown buinesses are contributing.

How much are you going to come up from your figure of .96 cents so we know where you really stand.

I am glad you have hinted that your figure of $.96 is a bit on the low side. I doubt the Sun would have ran an article for this tiny number!

Give us dollars and cents per household, Joe!

Thank You!

By John Q. Public on April 25, 2008 4:44 PM
Jessica,

I can't speak for Joe or anyone else, but if someone files the FOIA, and describes the results of what they found on this blog, I won't call him or her a liar. That's the way most of the information collectively uncovered about the NGM has been publicized here. Moderator Jim can correct me on this if I am wrong, but I don't think he would disallow such a post.

-JQP

P.s. You have nothing to lose by filing the FOIA. If we learn that the NGM's car was the only one who's plate was run that evening, it would be pretty damning evidence. If his was one of 100 license plates, you could still advance the argument that his case was handled with undue harshness.

********************************************************************

John,

You seem to be the voice of sanity on this Naperate Thread...almost like an unofficial moderator. Keep up the good work!

Someone does need to bring sanity to this debate since the Host and Moderator appear to be very busy with the print edition.

I do think the Napergatians are trying. But they are not professional reporters. They need help from the professional reporters and City Staffers to comprehned all those numbers. Let us face it those numbers are complex and we all don't have MBAs like the Napergate Man, T.B. and Randy!

I think the Napergate Man set the standard way to high with his investigative reporting and ability to penetrate City Hall. Thus the massive frustration in both camps and possibly the Naperville Sun who would be hard pressed to meet the standard set by the Napergate Man in investigative reporting.

He had no problem digging up the legal department numbers and even graphing them for us to make them very easy to comprehend. Don't know how he did it and made it so simple, while both the Napergate and Establishment Parties and even the Naperville Sun all seem paralyzed from the waist down.

The Napergate Man was willing to take the time to befriend City Council Members Jack Tenison and Doug Krause. They fed him whatever he needed. He knew what to do with it. He was a brilliant investigative reporter even though he had no training in that field.

I guess you don't have to train a tiger to kill its prey. When it is hungry, it finds and kills its prey to satisfy its appetite.

He seemed to have an unusual hunger for knowledge and found a way to satisfy his hunger and the hunger of the entire town by publishing his results in his Napergate ads! I think the Naperville Sun has a much better chance and the means to replace the Napergate Man than bloggers from either side of the aisle.

I hope the Naperville Sun finds a way to step it up to a higher level so we can get answers before we hit the 1000th post arguing. Pretty soon we will run out of gigabytes just as ink is expensive and scarce!

Irene, this is where you and other napergatians really show the complete ineptness of your movement. While I would not hazard to guess how many police officers are assigned to special events, I know that I have personally seen more than three officers providing security at those events. At least you said you think instead of claiming it as fact.

Once again, where has it been shown that the cops that arrested the napergate man were on overtime? This is one of those 'facts' that keeps the myth going.

Also, why is it a "fateful" night? A man's license showed as suspended, he was arrested, bonded out, and went on with his life. To bad his followers cannot do the same.

Since, by all accounts, the napergate man was in and out in under four hours, the jail was already built and staffed, there were no extra costs to process him. You should be glad that the staff on hand had work to do instead of sitting around doing nothing while waiting for the next arrestee to come in.

Last, but not least, all of you napergatians seem to want everyone to be ticketed or arrested no matter who they are. Everybody, that is, except for the naprergate man. When he is arrested, all of the sudden it is discrimination. Seems like the napergatians are the ones with the double standard.

Host Ted,

As the gentleman in charge of the print editon could you please get a reporter to do an investigation of this police overtime.

Here we have Joe, in the span of a half hour reducing his number from 6 dollars per household to .96 cents. He obviously does not know what he is talking about and is confusing himself while also confusing the bloggers.

The Napergatians try to keep everything simple and in layman's language. Everyone understands their plain English and easy Arithmetic.

Could you check with the City Manager, Mr. Ted, what the real numbers are.

Try to ask him if this 3 million is net of reimbursement or before.

Try to find out what the actual dollar figure of reimbursement is.

I suspect it is less than 100,000 dollars a year assuming it is already not netted out.

Sometimes us Citizen Journalists need some help from Professional Journalists.

I hope you agree, Host Ted!

Moderator,

I will admit I failed math. But nothing Joe says makes sense.

Now he is saying all this police overtime cost me less than half a cup of coffee. If this is true, I doubt this would be an issue with any taxpayer.

If this is true, why is the city council up in arms wanting to reduce it.

I am leaning toward the Napergatian's numbers despite my poor mathematicial skills.

Would it be hard to put in a call to the City Finance Director of Naperville, Monday morning and have him tell us what this police OT is costing each resident, Mr. Moderator. He should know better than Joe!

If it is only .96 cents per household let us forget about it. But if it is 70 dollars per household, let us do something about it.

Thanks for letting me post, Moderator! Hope you can help us out by making that call.

I misstated this paragraph:

So, that means we take your property taxes for the City of Naperville and multiply by .16 for the portion of your property taxes that pay into the total general fund. From there we multiply by .008 (.8%) to find out exactly what 'your fair share' really is as part of your property taxes.

===

Correction:

So, that means we take your property taxes for the City of Naperville and multiply by .16 to get the proper percentage fraction of your property taxes that make up the entire general fund as a whole (prop taxes are only 16% of the whole fund, remember). From there we multiply by .008 (.8%) to find out exactly what 'your fair share' really is as part of your property taxes.

Ken,
The special events that generate OT are insiginificant. They may add a few police officers for the Last Fling and Ribfest.

I think the 12 officers sitting in jury boxes every morning and the other 12 officers stationed on Chicago Ave. is what is creating over 90% of this overtime.

We only had one gang like murder for drugs in Naperville the last 10 years. It did not occur last year when we had 3 million plus of overtime. So our overtime is not from investigating murders.

The murder occurred this year!

Chasing the Napergate Man all night long for a toll violation is a perfect example of police overtime waste. The extra 2 hours those officers racked up cost us $432 dollar of overtime. For what! A few 40 cent violations. What did it cost to provide him a cell for the night? Was that necessary? How much did we pay for the officer who monitored him all night?

So what if they did not get the Napergate Man that evening. He would have gotten his notice the next day and took care of it. I think we all know he is a highly organized and responsible citizen from his success and accomplishments in town.

He would have been no danger to society if he was not taken off the roads that evening as the suspension had nothing to do with his driving abilities.

But more importantly since we are also talking about discretion, I do believe it was used to discriminate against the Napergate Man that fateful evening and it wlll eventually be proven in a court of law.

Thompson,

You are right, I was being silly.

I was being overly generous because my original math assumed that property taxes made up 100% of the general fund. I knew they didn't but I wasn't going to be technical about it.

The truth is they are only 16% of the revenue that goes into the general fund shown here: http://www.naperville.il.us/emplibrary/FY08AnnualOpBudget-GenOtherFunds.pdf on page 50 "General Fund Revenue Summary"

So, that means we take your property taxes for the City of Naperville and multiply by .16 for the portion of your property taxes that pay into the total general fund. From there we multiply by .008 (.8%) to find out exactly what 'your fair share' really is as part of your property taxes.

My original $6 is really just $0.96

Formula: City_Taxes * .16 * .008 = Your Fair Share

Please post your numbers.

Everyone else feel free to join in and post theirs too.

By Joe on April 25, 2008 4:34 PM
Caroline,

Please show us city documents that shows the City of Naperville collects exactly the same amount of money from each household and allocates it specifically to police OT.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Joe,
You are really being silly, You know Caroline was talking average contribution per household.

So some homes pay 80 bucks, some homes pay 60, some pay 45 bucks, and some pay 95 bucks. But guess what the averarge is 70 bucks per household in the numbers I just provided. Quit dicing and slicing Joe! We know what Caroline is talking about!

Caroline forgot to include what the businesses pay. But technically the downtown busineses are being subsdized so what they are paying is irrelevant. The non-downtown business contribute but I suspect at 10% or less of total residential. No matter how you slice it, the homeowners are contributing at least 60 bucks per household.

What little is reimbursed is irrelevant! We were talking about the 3.15 million OT number that the city council wants reduced to 3 million. This number could be net of reimbursement for all we know.

I doubt the Last Fling and Rib Fest which are only a few days each per year are a major factor here like say the Chicago Ave. nightclubs which is 52 weekends a year without interruption!

Jessica,

I can't speak for Joe or anyone else, but if someone files the FOIA, and describes the results of what they found on this blog, I won't call him or her a liar. That's the way most of the information collectively uncovered about the NGM has been publicized here. Moderator Jim can correct me on this if I am wrong, but I don't think he would disallow such a post.

-JQP

P.s. You have nothing to lose by filing the FOIA. If we learn that the NGM's car was the only one who's plate was run that evening, it would be pretty damning evidence. If his was one of 100 license plates, you could still advance the argument that his case was handled with undue harshness.

If what you are reading on your real estate bill is accurate, Joe, than the City of Naperville played with the numbers again to hide police overtime.

Maybe just like they hid the Napergate Kangaroo Trial cost.

Let us hope you are wrong, Joe, for the sake of the City Accounting and Finance Department!

The math as shown by the Napergatians seems to be pretty simple.

I don't see why Joe won't accept it.

Sometimes I wish the Moderator would step in and explain to Joe how to divide one number into another and knock some sense in him so we don't waste so many gigbytes and clutter this thread over irrationality.

Thanks!

We are talking about 4th grade math here. And with a calculator, I suspect a 1st or 2nd grader can pull it off.

It is puzzling that Joe sees things so differently than most Napervillians and Napergatians.

Caroline, Liebert's 'straight talk' is wrong, and you only understand it because you are using the napergatian calculator. Your statement that black is black, white is white, and there is no gray in this issue shows how little you understand of it.

What you and your ilk forget to include is the fact that the town gets reimbursed for much of their overtime by the people that run the special events that generate that overtime. This was pointed out many times on the overtime thread, yet you continue to ignore it.

Another problem with the napergatian math is that whatever real overtime that is not reimbursed would be divided between all the property owners of Naperville, not just the residential property owners.

Bottom line is that Joe's method would be the most accurate with the information at hand. He is not going off of imagined numbers, or ignoring facts that don't support his numbers. He is using the hard number gained from his tax bill.

The only thing you have "nailed" Joe on is using actual numbers to get at the truth, something it seems that the napergate cult would not recognize if it bit them in the nose.

Caroline,

Please show us city documents that shows the City of Naperville collects exactly the same amount of money from each household and allocates it specifically to police OT.

They do not. Everyone's 'fair share' is based on how much property taxes they pay into the city budget.

By your logic everyone pays the exact same taxes. They don't. That's a fact. Everyone pays a different amount and their 'fair share' is based on the amount of taxes they pay to the city.

Someone living in a $200,000 house is paying less for police OT than someone living in a $6,000,000 home. Someone who rents is paying even less than that.

I would like to say that I am against privatizing the garages downtown as Mr. Public stated or suggested.

I do think that would hurt downtown businesses.

I do feel that all landlords are reaping in significant profits. Not all tenants are since the landlords are squeezing them to the maximum in some cases.

But some tenants such as the balcony guy and the Starbucks on the corner of Main and Jefferson are reaping in unusual extraordinary profits to say the least.

When one coffee shop can reap in a million dollars in profits without paying one penny for parking it does seem ludicrous.

Why the City of Naperville tolerates the enrichment of downtown businesses at the expense of residential taxpayes and non-downtown business is beyond me.

Liebert & Caroline,

Your reading comprehension is still lacking. According to the article in the Naperville Sun article last week regarding police overtime, the overtime total for last year does not reflect all the money reimbursed back to the city by event organizers for much of that overtime total. All that money goes back in to the city's general fund.

Sometimes things are full color. Not just black and white.

What is it Joe, that propels you to act like a fool on these blogs sites.

I guess Moderator Jim must keep you on for the entertainment value.

No person ever worked 18 hours a day every day during their work career. What bullsh*t you bring to us on a daily basis?

I am not the boss of this site here but I do not see what value you bring to this blog site when most people are actually serious and trying to resolve significant issues facing us and our town.

This is to Liebert.

Since The mod utilized his 'discretion' on the OT topic to not post my message I will put it here per his notation of relevance:

I believe discretion is what allowed Abbey to go home with a friend the night of the arrest and not be impounded by Animal Control that weekend.

Sometimes we receive good use of discretion and don't recognize it because we are too busy complaining about not getting it to the extent we think we are entitled to receive it on something else.

John Q. Public,

I read your long anaylsis. Anyway you cut it the landlords have plenty of money to pay for their own parking.

If they decided to go to 60 dollars in rent instead of 40 dollar per squart foot, they will go out of business.

If they decide to contribute some of their profits from the high rents to the parking instead of milking their tenants for every last dime, they will remain in business and prosper, albeit in a less prosperous fashion that does not involve windfall profits on my back and your back!

The Barnes and Nobles landlord made tons of money. He used his windfall profits to build the Promenade Building. Now the establishment couple is either expanding that building or building a third building.

Are you really worried about this establishment couple worth over a 100 million dollars going out of business, John Q Public?

Let them pay their fair share. That is all Napergatians are saying. If one or two Napergatians are hostile, don't blame the whole group as if one person speaks for 500.

I guess since you are a newcomer to town and never read those 100 Napergate and non-Napergate ads, you are catching on slowly but very surely.

But you appear to be definitely catching on and I admire you for that. Keep up the good work, Mr. Public. I am impressed with your analysis as it is showing cracks in the unfairness of the subsidized parking downtown.

You obviously are no Joe! I am thankful for that!

Jessica,

I'm sorry to point out the obvious to such an internet savvy group, however:

Has Diana heard of rapidshare.com?

It's really cool. You can host files for free.

She could post it there and post the link here. Problem Solved. No need for moderator involvement at that point. Go file it.

She could do the same w/ the toll violations data. Post it on rapidshare.com and post the link here.

That way, everyone here can download it from rapidshare.com and see it in all its splendid glory making those city folk eat crow.

Filing a FOIA: $0.00
Cost of hosting at rapidshare.com: $0.00
Making City Supporters eat crow: Priceless

No more excuses, there is you $0.00 solution.

Joe,
No one is going to buy your mumble jumble talk over Liebert's straight talk.

The bottom line is we had $3.15 million in Naperville Police OT last year. No one disptues that!

The bottom line is we have approximately 45,000 household in Naperville. No one disputes that either!

It seems to me $3,150,000 divided by 45,000 households is $70 dollars per household any way you slice it.

Police overtime caused by Chief David Dial is costing us each $70 dollars per household and not $6.00 per household as Joe is attempting to fabricate on these blogs as he has done many times in the past.

Since there are many Napergatians, Joe, we have been able to catch all your lies and nail you for each and every one of them. It does seem nice to have numbers keeping an eye on a full timer like you who decieves all day and night 365 days a year.

It really is common sense and easy math.

Since no Napergatian could convince you, I am asking T.B. or John Q. Public who seem to be reasonable men, to step in to explain to Joe that sometimes black is black and white is white and there is no gray.

Thanks for all who can get through to Joe! At times he does seem very hopeless in addition to dense!

John Q. Public and Joe,

What has not been made clear in your posts, is Diana offered to do the FOIA for the group. Not once but a few times. All she wanted was a promise that Moderator Jim or Host Ted would post it.

Either or both refused to make her a promise, answer her question, or even simply tell her we would post simply subject to review.

As you both may or may not know, Diana spent a lot of time with the help of her girl friend digging up information at the Toll Authority that started this mess.

She was allowed to post the 4 violations by his daughter which indicated lane, date, time, make of car and whatever else the computer printed out.

However she spent 2 and a half weeks with her girl friend chasing that notice that the Napergate Man got after his arrest. This was a big part of the debate. She was not allowed to post this notice showing it was mailed from Houston bulk rate 2 days before his arrest to show the City Supporters that were wrong about the Napergate Man being irresponsible and not attending to his mail especially as Joe has been bullhorning on these blog for months in additon to T.B. and a few others.

I see no purpose in any Napergatian filing for FOIAs if they will not be published for the City Supporters disputing the truth to see.

Most, if not all Napergatians, understand, the license running of the plates plus 4 police officers arriving in a parking lot within 50-55 seconds is impossible. Thus they are doing this to prove the city supporters wrong.

If they can't prove the city supporters wrong, what is the purpose of doing such an FOIA? Circulate it amongst the group so we can pat each other on the back for something we already know was an impossibility.

I think most of us are willing to wait for the Napergate Man's attorneys to file the FOIA. I am sure they will prior to the S of L expiring. The Napergate Man never let the city get away with anything. I doubt he has changed his style or tactics. He just does things his way, on his terms and time table!

Liebert,

It was said that police OT was .8% of the city budget.

That means you multiply your tax dollar for the city fund by .008

No where on my tax bill does it show a line item for police OT and that it is divided equally amongst all homes in the city.

If you have a tax bill that shows it, Fax it to the Sun.

Mine shows:

City of Naperville, Pension Fund and City Naperville LIBR, Naperville Park District and Pension Fund.

That's it for the city. No Police overtime line item. That means the OT comes out of the City of Naperville Fund. What is your line item for that on your tax bill? Now multiply by .008 What's that number?

Again, your reading comprehension escapes you as I said the top 20.

Round them up and make sure they are posting on the blogs here because there will be a pop quiz about what everyone posted prior. If they can't substantiate they are the handle they claim, they are S.O.L.

Rachael,

Get over yourselves. I'm not spying on anyone and I really don't personally care about any of you.

Go back and read about who asked who for their name, middle initial, job, wife, kids, married etc. I haven't asked anyone for theirs. I only asked for validity to someone having THEIR OWN real estate tax bill. I don't even have to see it or know your names. Moderator Jim at the Sun can check IDs and tax bills.

Everyone in the group can come up with a million and one excuses as to why they can't do something. Can't file a FOIA because of blah blah and blah... Can't come and get a refund for police overtime because of blah blah and blah.

Like I said.. the group is ineffective. I don't care how many people you think you brought into your camp. If you can't spend 15 minutes filing a FOIA after several months, that sums it all up right there.

As for what makes me believe that the blog sites can not be as effective as napergate ads.. well, let's just say anyone can go to any blog site and find people crabbing and complaining about something. They also will find them unwilling and/or unable to do anything about it, instead wishing to spend their time just complaining more. That's why I think using this blog site will be far less effective. Look at the progress so far: Well over a month talking about filing a FOIA about an old arrest and still nothing to show for it.

File it, get the results and post them. That will show it's effective. Until then, it's just simple complaining. Nothing else.

If the bloggers keep this ineffectiveness up it will detract TOALLY from anything put into print because for months now people have been saturated w/ Napergate to the point where they consider it just a gang of young kids trying to ride someone else's coat tails of the past while being too naive or lazy to actually DO something (like file a FOIA that takes 15 minutes).

By all means though, keep it up if you think it's a knock-out double punch. Unfortunately most of them that are posting here seem too immature to recognize constructive criticism when it stares them in the face.

By Joe on April 24, 2008 11:55 AM
Lucas,

Deal?

If you bring out the numbers and they can answer some simple questions about previous things THEY posted and even show me their real estate tax bills and a picture ID to prove it really is their property and their name is on the tax bill, I will multiple the city fund portion by .8% and give the top 20 posters a refund for police overtime that they had to pay for last year. How's that for an incentive?

My portion worked out to just about $6.00 What's yours work out to?

********************************************************************

Joe,
You have shown you are not only incompetent but a fool. Police OT which was undisputed at $3.15 million last year is $70.00 dollars per household based on 45,000 household in Naperville. (Council is demanding it be brought down to 3 million which is $66.66 cents per household and amounts to a Joke of Savings)

At $6 dollars a household, you would need 525,000 households in town which is nearly 4 times the residents living in Naperville. Never knew each resident including babies and children were wealthy enough to own 4 homes.

However Joe, if you present a cashiers check to the Naperville Sun payable to the Napergatians for $700,000 dollars I will see to it that 10,000 Napergatians show up to the Naperville Sun to collect their 70 dollars each...not $6 dollars each.

I have both the Napergate Man's home and cell number and I will give him a call and ask him to fire an e-mail to his 10,000 supporters on his e-mail list. I believe he will do me that favor and would love to bring back the unjustified OT they paid to the Naperville Police Dept. back to their Napergatian families.

So put up the cashier's check Joe at the Naperville Sun and I promise to deliver on my angle. Show the Naperville Sun you got the money.

You sure worked hard 18 hours a day for decades accumulating it. We, Napergatians, would love to separate you from your money.

Please allow us to!!!

Thank You! We are up to your challenge!

Bring your camera along to document the separation of your money from your bank accounts!

And thank you much for your GENEROSITY in returning all this money to its rightful owners!

Tom wrote:

“You continue to skate discussing the issues by dealing with the exceptions.”

And your side keeps ignoring the likelihood that these “exceptions” will increase if we impose a 10% levy on the revenue of downtown businesses. Moreover, where is the proof that most retail businesses downtown have profit margins more than ten times the average?

“Many of the few businesses that went out of business in downtown were businesses that had their rent suddenly doubled by their landlords when their leases expired. They did not go out of business but were in essence kicked out by greedy landlords who wanted more successful national chain outlets who could pay double the rent!”

I know that’s what was reported about that little coffee place on Jackson. Do you have evidence that this has happened to other businesses? In any event, I’m sure pretty much any business that has a profit margin of 50% can weather a 100% increase in rent.

“When landlords downtown can charge double to triple the rent landlords only a mile or two outside of downtown charge, you have an ARTIFICIALLY CREATED SITUATION AND ENVIRONMENT! Caused of couse, by SUBSIDIZATION!!!”

We are all in agreement that landlords and businesses downtown benefit from subsidized parking. The question is not whether they are subsidized, but whether that is something that benefits the public at large as well as the merchants and landlords. Also I disagree with you that subsidized parking is the only reason for higher rents. If it were, then why is it, for one example, that houses in the downtown area cost so much more than equivalent houses in other parts of Naperville? Rents are high because downtown is a popular destination for residents and non residents alike.

“Maybe the focus should be on squeezing landlords for the parking costs and not the tenants/businesses. I have never heard of a landord going out of business in downtown Naperville. Have you?”

No, not in the short time that I’ve been here---not that I’d necessarily know about it if it DID happen. From what I’ve heard, though, things were pretty bad downtown after the Fox Valley Mall opened.

“Let us not forget the landlords outside of downtown build and pay for their own parking and maintain it along with cooperation of their tenants with 0 NET COST to the residential taxpayers!”

I agree…sort of. The key is that the cost of parking is built into the rents the landlords charge, which the merchants in turn pass on to their customers as part of their cost of doing business. So, if you shop at one of these establishments, the cost of parking is built into the cost of anything you buy, and you are indirectly paying for parking. In the same way, if we make the downtown landlords and/or merchants bear more of the cost of parking, that increased cost will be factored into the prices that they charge. Yes, some of the establishments with high profit margins might choose to eat the extra cost, in the short term at least. But those with narrower margins will have to choose between raising prices, going out of business, or relocating.

Does it make more sense to do this than to tax the residents? Maybe. Maybe not. We could also, as Rod Randall, suggested, sell or lease the parking structures to a private operator, who would then charge for parking. That way we’re attacking the “problem” at it’s source. There are at least a couple of problems with this approach, though. One is that many visitors to downtown will likely try to avoid the fee lots, which will exacerbate the problem of restaurant and store patrons filling up the remaining free lots, as well as the residential streets adjoining downtown. Another is that fee lots would discourage casual visitors to downtown, people who don’t have any particular destination in mind, but go downtown to walk around, window-shop, enjoy the Riverwalk, etc. I’m sure some of these people end up buying something while they’re there, and though their business may not amount to a huge percentage of all the money spent downtown, even a small amount of lost revenue can be significant for some businesses.

It all comes down to what kind of downtown we want to have here. We cannot turn back the clock to a time when small town shopping districts were filled with mom and pop businesses that were religiously patronized by local residents, but we can drive out the remaining such establishments if we’re not careful with the policies that we adopt. I think the policies we have adopted have contributed to fostering a downtown environment that is the envy of many a suburb, and that has benefited the residents in ways that are hard to quantify. It certainly is nice, for example, not to have to drive into Chicago to eat at a good restaurant. And whether or not you eat at a restaurant or purchase something in a store, you can go there to enjoy the Riverwalk and the ambiance of the area without having to pay $5 or more for the privilege every time. Even the NGM enjoys taking advantage of this benefit, apparently.

“And none of you city supporters bothered to answer the question of who pays for those dumpsters that the business downtown use jointly and can be found in the flat public parking areas. The city or the businesses? In strip centers the businesses pay for them.”

Why is the onus on the “city supporters” to answer this question? You’re trying to make an issue out of something you haven’t even proven is an issue, and about which you haven’t shown there is disagreement. And now you’re challenging the other side to prove that this is or isn’t an issue so that we can agree or disagree about it?

“If you 5 or 6 guys who blog so much would take a break and make a phone call once in a while we may be able to get some answers.But unlike the Napergatians, you guys literally live on these blogs as if you were all addicted to the rises you get.”

How interesting would this blog be if everybody always agreed on everything? And if you want information on downtown dumpsters, an FOIA about NPD license plate checks in downtown in July of 2006, or any other data related to YOUR positions, why would you expect it to come from the “Gang of 5” as opposed to the 300, or 500, or 10,000 Napergatians? Which side has more time and resources?

“Let us grow up and look for solutions instead of rises!”

Right back atcha!

“Are you possibly a downtown landlord, Mr. Public, reaping these windfall profits or are you simply one of these individuals who comes here to argue nonsense for the sake of arguing nonsense, instead of helping us arrive at serious solutions?”

Neither. I’m also not someone who confuses ad hominems with effective rebuttals. The financing of public parking downtown is not a black and white issue. There are advantages and disadvantages to Naperville residents no matter which approach we adopt. Maybe if you’d be more open to the possibility that there might be some merit to the arguments of the other side, you wouldn’t feel the need to resort to insults and accusations of being in bed with the landlords, and we could elevate the level of discourse on this blog.

Here is my response to Mr. Popo's letter on the police OT thread. I see a good debate on discrimination vs discretion taking place on this Napegate Thread with 100% openness and everything goes except libel and profanity. Much easier for us Napergatians do debate here than any other thread!

********************************************************************

By Rachael on April 25, 2008 9:32 AM
Mr. Popo,

I am going to take your letter and copy and post it on the thread we can not mention by name. I think those folks will have a field day with your letter.

Sadly, but you may not realize it, your definition of discretion is discrimination.

I am also having some doubts with your statement that that judges are the ones who suspend Driver's Licenses.

My understanding is state agencies like the Toll Authority and the Secretary of State are the ones that suspend Driver's Licenses...not Judges!

Many of us learned this by being on these threads for a while. I think you go to the judge to ask for your license back by proving the State Agencies are wrong or accepting a certain amount of suspension time because the State Agencies are right.

It does seem like you are an arrogant guy who made yourself judge, prosecutor, defense attorney and police officer on the streets by deciding who should get a ticket and who should not get a ticket for the same violation. That is not what a good policeman is about. I am sure some con artists types play you for a fool, when they say "How is your day going, Mr. Police Officer" and being the sucker you are, you let them go.

I have a nurse girl friend who never got a ticket by the NPD when she was a bubbly young pretty nurse in her twenties. Now that she is an older nurse and in her upper forties, she always gets a ticket by the NPD. To me this is a form of discriminatioon practiced by Chief David Dial and the NPD.

It has becoming ever more apparent to many of us bloggers that discetion in police terms means DISCRIMINATION.

You also showed you are a self-centered ba$t@&d worried about the consequences to yourself instead of being concerned about upholding the law in an equal and fair fashion to all. How selfish that you won't give a doctor a ticket because you are worried he may take it out on you if you ever need an operation. You have no concern that he may run over a neighborhood kid speeding that is not one of your kids. Only concern is the one in a thousand chance that he would operate on you.

Not all people are discriminators like you, Mr. Popo. I can assure you whether you gave that doctor a ticket or not, he would treat you with extreme professionalism when operating on you. He would never abuse you as you have been absuing citizens with your street discrimination.

Your fears of others discrminating against you is based on the fact that you DISCRIMINATE! Once you stop your discrimination, your fear of others discriminating against you will dissipate and disappear!

Good luck, my friend in getting some psychological rehabilitation.
Hopefully, we won't be charged overtime for your treatment.

I would like to repost this letter from Mr. Popo to Napergatian Maryann on the police OT thread here, so Napergatians can have an opportunity to debate it freely if they so please and wish.....

********************************************************************

By Mr Popo on April 25, 2008 3:12 AM
Maryann,
i still cannot understand why everybody is so hung up on suspended drivers licenses. Police are not the ones that suspend them-those are judges. A suspended license is a suspended license-they are all class A misdemenors-$100 and you are out of jail.

Why are you so hung up on speeding tickets? Law gives me discretion on tickets. I make the decision after i speak to the speeder. If they are pleasant and don't have any priors thy usually get a warning. If they are a jerk they will get as many tickets as I can write.

I also don't give nurses, doctors, or teachers tickets for speeding-within reason. I guess that makes me even worse right? Nurses and doctors could be cutting me open after being shot so i don't want to p$&s them off. And teachers are underpaid/overworked/under appreciated in my opinion so i don't want to make their lives any more difficult. As far as city officials-i could give a rats ass about any of them. ANY OF THEM!!!

I may get sued someday-(not regarding speeding tickets though)cant do anything to stop it. Police are indemnefied so wont have to pay anything out of my pocket.

Lets just say that I am not a tough guy when it comes to speeding tickets as they are not in my list of top 10 priorities.

No more questions on discretion. It is a moot point with me.

Joe,
It sounds to me you are frustrated because you are having a hard time SPYING on the Napergatians. I know you don't want to associate with them permanently but if you read both my prior correspondence and your prior correspondence, your intent is to SPY.

Do you think Napergatians will sell their leader and their movement for 6 dollars from Joe? Be serious, Joe!

We unfortunately did lose a Napergatian named John Rosanova to the Establishment when the Brestal Law Firm offered his son a cushy, possibly 100k job. To the best of my knowledge that is the only Napergatian ever to switch over to the Establishment. I guess he showed his true colors and you guys can have him. He fits right in with the establishmnent policy of cronyism and favoritism.

As far as the Napergate Man and his police abuse and report: That is a personal issue. I do believe he will file suit sometime before July 8, 2008, which is the statute of limitation expiration date.

He has proven up to the task many times and he does not need our help for a matter that is personal. We just think he was abused and are hoping he will file suit. We will, of course, be supporting him if he files his lawsuit. Period!!!

And Joe contrary to your beliefs, we have been very effective. We have brought many people into our camp using the Sun's Blog Site. If we keep working hard on Jim's Blogs, hopefully come election time we can tilt the balance of power to our movement in the poll movement.

As many have noticed, the only reason you guys are stuck with 5 supporters is that you are content. Just don't forget Kansas the national basketball champion, only beat lowly Davidson, by 1 point because they took them a little too lightly. The City of Naperville is obviously taking the Napergatians lightly again. I think that is great. We just need to get that one point that Davidson did not get and seal the deal.

You probably don't know, Joe, but when you were working 18 hours a day, the Napergate Man got an entire slate of 4 candiates elected at one time. What saved the City is the other 4 estbalishment candidates were not up for election. Plus Mayor George Pradel was not defeatable and remains undefeatable.

What makes you think Joe, seriously, that these blog sites can not be as effective as the Napergate ads by next year? And what about if the Napergate Man does come out next year before election time and runs his Napergate ads again in the Print Edition while his supporters continue to work this blog site.

Do you think the establishment could survive a double punch of that nature? If the Napergate Man smells an easy kill he is coming out. A few Napergatge ads is chump change for him and he is not going to let his supporters down. Our duty is to let him smell that an easy kill may be in the horizon and that it may be worth his time to come out again, and we need to continue working towards that goal each and every day, with every fiber of our beings!

Rachael,

You've obviously mistaken me for someone who wants to associate with them on an ongoing basis. Trust me, I don't. They are, by their own admission, ineffective and a non-item. They claimed to be lacking something: a leader with money. Can't even file a FOIA on their own that takes (according to them) 15 minutes. They have tried for months to get someone else to do it for them. Still, fruitless. That speaks volumes to the ineffectiveness.

My only interest in paying people money for their share of police overtime is to give them no more room to complain about it since it would no longer be THEIR money being 'wasted'. I was right about my earlier post: Some people would rather only complain about some perceived injustice then actually make an effort to do something about it. I offered to do something for up to 20 Napergatians if the alleged hundreds would come out and be present and accounted for at the Naperville Sun's offices. You know, to 'right the wrong' about having to pay police overtime with their precious tax dollars.

Moderator Jim,

I could not resist the attempt to try to be the 700th poster since 700 is my lucky number.

Hopefully, I will be!

I was just wondering why Host Ted was here 90% of the times in the old days and now you are here 90% of the time.

You both do a great job!

Was it too overbearing for one person to continue monitoring this blog site for too long of a period of time?

I had a feeling Host Ted eventually would burn out from working 7am to 1am seven days a week for almost an entire year!

Did he finally burn out, Moderator Jim?

Just curious, you don't have to answer as long as I made my lucky number of 700!

Response from Naperville Sun editors:

Ted's been busy overseeing production of the daily print edition but continues to actively monitor and publish comments on this forum and take part in discussions when time permits.

By Joe on April 24, 2008 3:54 PM
Becky:

The best way to get reliable information is by getting close to the person you want dirt on or someone else who is close to them. Fake your way into their circle of friends. You would be amazed what people talk about when they think they are around like-minded people

By Joe on April 24, 2008 6:52 PM
Nikki,

It seems odd that those complaining about being over taxed for police overtime will turn down a cash refund opportunity for their 'fair share'. Does it feel better to remain unhappy and complain about it (venting reference) than it does to fix your own immediate problem with it (cash) ?

********************************************************************

Joe,
If you study both of your posts carefully you will understand why Napergatians are turning down a cash refund opportunity for their "fair share" that you are extending their way.

The answer can be found in your own paragrah, Joe.

"Be careful though, people can usually smell a rat from a mile away so unless you have good schmooze skills and learn to holster the combative personalities that show themselves here you are likely to wind up with nothing."

I think the Napergatians can smell a rat from a mile away, Joe. Guess who that rat may be? They do have good schmooze skills and have been able to detect both your comabtive and non-combative personalities from a mile away and that is why you have wound up with nothing in your searches for Napergatians.

I guess you have attempted to penetrate into the circle of Napergatians and have obviously failed. Napergatians do talk when around like minded people. But since you are not like minded and can be smelled out from a mile away just like the rat you describe, it is unlikely you will be able to break into the inner circle of Napergatians.

Keep trying, Joe! It is obvious you have underestimated the ability of the Napergatians not to be fooled by a smelly rat!!!

So let me get this straight, Nathan. You, along with all the other napergatians that posted in this thread and the overtime thread don't want anyone to get special treatment...except Basim.

Nobody has proved that the officers that arrested him for driving on a suspended license were on overtime, yet you want all overtime cut off, even at the expense of letting a lawbreaker go. What if Basim plowed into someone with his oversize paramilitary vehicle and killed them on the way home, and it was found out the cops let him go? Would you still have all approved of their actions? By the way, how would the cops know that it was his daughter who committed the violations and not him? That has never been explained in the countless times this story has been told.

Either way, the cops still would have been there, so I am glad they were doing their job.

As for chaos on the board, it is mostly brought about by napergatians that do not follow the rules.

Nathan,

I too am concerned that we have police on overtime and they are not bringing in the revenue. Perhaps we should have them go over everyone with a fine toothed comb (within legal limits) so that they can write tickets that pay for their overtime. 1 extra $100.00 ticket written every 111 minutes would make the overtime and revenue generated break even, right? Please, double check my math on that one.

Imagine the profit we could make if they just wrote one every 20 minutes of their overtime. That would actually make our tax bills go down, wouldn't it?

I absolutely love your new perspective on this from a revenue / cost point of view.

Thank you for putting forth this awesome idea.

Nikki,

My price for the FOIA is what it is. Someone wanted to haggle, I didn't want to drop my price. Has anyone done it for you yet, let alone for less money? I asked anyone if they have a different count other than the 'at least 32' lookups. No one has any other number to refute that so the readers here are left to assume no one else found out which also means that you still have not gotten your FOIA filed or processed. $1,500.00 and I'll do that short little job for you. You can save back your .8% for police overtime off your real estate tax bill if you want.

It's not my problem if someone is inept at taking a piece of information and investigating with it further. Becky already pointed this problem out as an obvious problem amongst the group. I happen to still agree with her. Your post validates my agreement further.

I must be the exception to your rule because I did vote for DF. That either makes you a liar or me not an establishment person. Which is it? I'm comfortable with either conclusion you draw on that one.

I agree with you that people out of power and unhappy have a need to blog. The process is called 'venting' and there are many ways to do it. Blogging is one of them.

The 'capabilities' you speak of for web tracking are either IP based or email address based or both. Welcome to NCSA circa 1994.

It seems odd that those complaining about being over taxed for police overtime will turn down a cash refund opportunity for their 'fair share'. Does it feel better to remain unhappy and complain about it (venting reference) than it does to fix your own immediate problem with it (cash) ?

Thanks for posting my deleted post here, Moderator. I feel I did not waste my time writing it. Maybe I can contribute to making a touch of difference by writing and expressing my opinion.

Based on the huge number of posts here, more than I have seen on any other thread, I believe the Napergate Thread is a very well read thread. I am hoping City Officials also read it.

I am logging off to take care of family chores.

It was a pleasure blogging on your site today.

Thanks for allowing me the opportunity!

Bloggers,
If the below blog does not make 100% sense, it is because it was written for the police OT thread but being tranferred here since the Moderator felt it was out of place there. Thanks!

Nathan

####################################

Mr. Moderator,
Lucas response that was deleted was in response to Joe who posted this before him. So Lucas was only responding to a post about a matter that was posted.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

"By Joe on April 23, 2008 10:15 PM
Colin,

I agree with you that there should not be exceptions and officers should follow the law as they are sworn to do.

There is a group on here that you probably noticed, however, who would disagree with you because when an officer did just that (follow the law) it all of a sudden became a huge multi-agency conspiracy of discrimination.

I also agree, the officer who made the arrest that night could have possibly saved someone's life and should be applauded for removing a driver without a properly enabled license from the roadways whether it was on Overtime or not.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I think if you want to be a police man on these blogs instead of a Moderator as someone said before me, you need to apply discretion a little bit more wisely.

I feel you are being pressured by both sides, Moderator!

No one is mentioning the name that is prohibited. But if the fateful evening needs to be discussed without mentioning names, it should be allowed to be discussed.

It is my understanding and I could be wrong that police who work the 4am to midnight shift have their hours extended till 215am so they could service the downtown Chicago Ave. nightclub district with 12 police officers on weekend nights. I doubt they will bring in 12 officers special to work the hours of midnight to 2am so it would seem logical these are overtime officers extending their 4am to midnight shift for a few hours.

When delaying or waiting for an arrest till 2:15 am that pertains to a parked vehicle, it smacks of a desire for overtime. Maybe this guy decided to walk his dog till 4am. Should we allow 4 cops to be on overtime waiting for him, his friend and dog to get in his SUV and drive over something this petty. We are talking about cops making 54 dollars in overtime per hour each! 4 cops waiting for 2 additional hours each is 432 dollars of cost to the taxpayers over a 100 dollar ticket related to a .40 cent toll(s) violation. This is in addtion to having already paid the 12 cops $1296 dollars for the 2 hours shift. All this together is $1728 dollars of overtime money coming out of residential taxpayer pockets since the downtown appears to be heavily subsidized.

Over a year's time this Chicago Ave. Mess is costing us taxpayer nearly $179,712 in overtime not counting the regular time of the 12 police officers from 4am till midnight. The regular time is $359,424. Regular pay and overtime pay seems to be $539,135 to monitor these Chicago Ave. nightclubs. Why am I paying for it? The downtown businesses should pay for it in full as they are reaping the 75% Gross Profits on alcohol. Since most of them have a line to get in one has to assume they are very profitable. Plus since police have a massive pension and fringe benefits combined with the cost of vehicles and equipment, this Chicago Ave. nightclub district could be costing us over a million dollars a year to monitor just on weekends.

Some reasonable restraint has to be exercised for OT police work. This specific incident was not a drug deal that was about to happen that could bring possible harm to youth. It was a toll violation that took place 5-6 years ago that would bring harm to no one and endanger no one. I am even surprised the State of Illinois allows such a petty civil demand for money become such a serious criminal matter involving arrest and jail time! It should be a civil matter sent to a collection agency at best! The Toll Authority has to take some responsibility for this horrendous waste of taxpayer money on unnecessary police overtime.

So I think this is a serious example of OT that most residents know about and should be open for discussion as long as we don't use that other "N" word. Maybe we need to say Basim Esmail! Does that make a difference as far as blogging on this site is concerned! Maybe it is time to learn to say the man's name. He does have a name like the rest of us!

What are your thoughts, Moderator!?!

It just seems like you are making the proper decisions and then being pressured to remove the already published posts. Both groups have pressured you. I think you need to ignore the pressure and go with your instincts, gut feelings and better judgment which always seem right the first time when you make them.

Reversing for either side in my opinion is a mistake and causes chaos on your blog site. Think of it as a basketball game that you are refereeing. Once you blow that whistle, you can not undo it an hour later...you have to live with it!

Moderator,
I still have it. May, I bring it here! But in all honesty it does seem those Establishment Guys open the holes and the Napergate Guys and Gals jump in.

It seems like you are a very busy man and maybe not catching who is violating the rules first.

I will try to bring my post here and hopefully you will post it here if you feel it belongs here.

Thanks for the welcome, Moderator!

I have been reading for a few weeks but I had a temptation to write today as I was upset with my real estate tax bill!

Anonymous and Downtown,

I love all your questions. How do we get the answers? How did the Napergate Man always get the answers?

I suspect he had people in City Hall who were rebels and helped him secretly. I just can not imagine how else he had all the answers all the time.

How do you or anyoe suggest we get the answer to the wonderful questions you are posing.

Keep up the good work Anonymous and Downtown! Eventually City Hall is going to let us in for an inspection or we are going to have to break the door down!

Moderator,

Today is my first day posting and this is my second post. I just want to say I am fed up of government. I have watched my real estate tax bill go up through the roof, year after year, in substantial excess of inflationary pressures.

I tried to fight it this year and failed.

Whether it is the School, the Police, the City, Dupage County Airport, or the Parking Decks, I feel like I am being robbed of my money. I am getting fed up and want to finally participate and fight back after being part of the silent majority for over 10 years.

This town needs another Napergate Man or Woman to surface soon to restore law and order back to our town. It just seems we have chaotic rules and jungle law taking place everywhere you look.

Do these mulit-millionaires building these huge buildings really need me to subsidize them Moderator? Give me a break!!!

I heard you were going to write an article soon about this parking mess. Thank you! I think we need to awaken the 90% of residents who still have not discovered this blog site.

Please consider sending a few hundred print editions of the Naperville Sun free of charge to City Hall the day you write that article about these multi-millionaire establishment folks charging us hard working Napervillians for their parking needs. Maybe these people in City Hall don't read your blog site or newspaper. They need to know that the taxpayer has reached the point of outrage.

It has got to stop, Moderator! Thanks for your help!

Joe,
I think you were challenged to meet a Napergatian who offered to give you a 100 or 200 bucks to do an FOIA report on the Napergate Man. You skated out of meeting him by saying you wanted 1500 dollars for a 15 minute job. What an excuse that was to hide!!!

In another incident, I think Marilyn challenged you for a background check. You gave her a phony last name, no middle initial and no year of birth. Suddenly, you want us to meet you in Sun Headquarters and you refuse to identify yourself. We would at least like to google you to see if you have a criminal record, possess firearms and are mentally stable before we meet you. Look at what one crazy man did at Virgnina Tech. All indications from your posts here is that you have a missing or misplaced screw upstairs!

When it comes to action, you are nowhere to be found.

You have never told anyone what you do for a living.

Napergatians like Randy work or worked for ATT, Leibert owns a restaurant downtown Chicago and was selling homes under the name of Loylds in Naperville in the 1980s and 1990s, Todd owns an insurance business and invited the Moderator and Host to visit, Melissa used a Dentist named Soper who owned that property on Ponds of Hobson West, Bob, the Napergate Man's friend can probably be verified to exist by numerous police officers on the scene that fateful evening, Maryann had nothing to do with Napergate for months and was on these blogs blabbing with the Moderator and Host on the Road Warrior Thread when the blogs were slow and no one heard or ever had mentioned Napergate, Rod Randall gives his first and last name, Kevin was a convert that took place before our eyes, Realtor Ryan is a very well know Realtor with an office in a neighboring town, the Huntington Estates Lady can probably be identified by the NPD as she was there when the NPD accused the Napergate Man of ransacking the pool, Chinese Lady Dor does in fact take walks with the Napergate Man around Kenilworth Circle, Ameena offered her e-mail to everyone(have you tried writing her), Mickie's husband works for a Chicago law firm and wrote the Moderater directly and it goes on and on Joe.

My question is where are the other 10,500 Napergatians who voted for Dick Furstenau. We all know an Establishment supporter would never vote for DF! Why are they not bloggin?

Also where are the 10,995 Establishment folks who voted for Wehrli. We know of 5 bloggin here...but where are the rest Joe? Some things are really hard to explain.

I think people that are in power and happy see no need to blog as they are comfortable with the status quo.

I think people that are out of power and unhappy see a need to blog as they are uncomfortable with the status quo.

That may be why Napergatians outnumber Establishment by 500-5. Come election time, go to the polls and you will see herds of both Establishment Folks and Napergate Folks as it will be a tight race to the finish and I expect both parties to bring out all their supporters. Don't forget your camera and video recorder Joe, as this opportunity only arises once every 2 years. Don't expect either group to be wearing identifying dog tags to please your insanity Joe! Seriously!

Now instead of worring about others, tell us about yourself, Joe! What did you do for a living? How did you manage to work 18 hours a day for so many years? That really is a remarkable feat. I would like to hear more about it. Do you have a wife, Joe? Do you have kids, Joe? How long have you been in Naperville?

Why do you love wealthy fiefdom landlords who build high rises without any parking at the expense of the middle and upper class? Are you employed by them? Do they pay you to blog on their behalf so they can concentrate on more development at taxpayer's expense?
What is going on?

Just as you are curous about us, we are very curious about you and your motiviations. Tell us about yoursef!

Let the Moderator and Host worry about our numbers and your numebers. At any time they can check IP numbers to verify true count. They were able to kick Timothy off permanently by monitoring and banishing his IP number. Was he able to sneak back on...no...that should tell you something about the capabilities of the Naperville Sun!

Why don't you ask the Moderator for something like a one day Ride A Long. Maybe he will let you monitor IPs for one day and e-mail us all to say hi. Why don't you ask him, Joe, he just may allow it?

Or send him a private e-mail! Maybe he will tell youhe already has been monitoring IPs and e-mail or whatever else he is capable of doing. Why don't you have confidence in the Monitor and Host? They have shown the ability to detect bloggers with the same IP number and the blogger both admitted it. That should tell you something about the Sun's capabilities. They can even track an IP number to a home if they wanted to if they had any suspicians or threats...police do that all the time. Chief Dial works for them and can run any IP number for them if they ask him!

It does not hurt to try to get a one day tag along with the Moderator, Joe! Whining on this blog site will get you nowhere. Get off your butt and ask Moderator Jim if he will allow you to visit Sun Headquarters for one day to audit Napergatinas. He may actually grant your request since he seems like he is a very busy person.

I am sure none of us will have a problem with that if it would shut you up and get you to focus on the issues at hand instead of the messengers all the time. It is sickening how you are so obsessed with the messengers and don't care about the prosperity of this town and how it matures in a way where it is fair to all residents.

Becky:

"It blows my mind how the Napergate Man could uncover all of this corruption and most of us 500 people bloggin here don't even know where to start."

Blows my mind too that it seems that few if any amongst them have a clue how the world works or is put together.

The best way to get reliable information is by getting close to the person you want dirt on or someone else who is close to them. Fake your way into their circle of friends. You would be amazed what people talk about when they think they are around like-minded people.

Again, I too share your concern that with over several hundred supposed people blogging they always seem to overlook the simplest of things. Simple solutions work.

Be careful though, people can usually smell a rat from a mile away so unless you have good schmooze skills and learn to holster the combative personalities that show themselves here you are likely to wind up with nothing.

By Anonymous and Downtown on April 24, 2008 1:07 PM
To: By South of 111th on April 24, 2008 9:06 AM

Take any number you want for the cost of the parking deck and calculate the amount of sales required to pay for the deck/s at 1% of sales, its in the Billions in new sales.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Anonymous and Downtown,
I totally agree with you. It would take billions. Estimates of the cost the the newest 3 garages to be built is 50,000,000 to the taxpayers even after counting the tiny portion some developers will be paying on the non-library deck garages. At 1% we need 5 billion in sales to pay for these garages.

Downtown Naperville may have a 100 or 200 million in sales but not 5 BILLION. And what angers me is this 1% is coming from ME when I buy products from downtown.

I agree with all those who have said the landlords should be paying for their parking like anywhere else in the country.

This town is run like the mafia almost with everyone doing everyone else favors. Maybe these wealthy landlords contribute secretly to the campaigns of the council members who in turn waive all this parking for them enriching them beyond comprehension at taxpayer expense.

I am sure you all read how businessmen were contributing to the Governor and in return he was giving them jobs. I guess one guy contributed 55k to the Governor thru Rezko and got a $127,000 a year cushy job. I read that in the Sun-Times yesterday. I think it was on page 3.

Something has to be happening in Naperville. I don't know what.
But I remember some Golf Gate ads by the Napergate Man showing former Mayors taking multiple checks of 150 dollars to skirt having to report them. I think Golf Gate preceded Napergate and had a few editions. The Napergate Man even posted cancelled checks to show how this crony operation worked.

Since the Napergate Man is not watching, who knows if our politicians went back to taking multiple 150 dollar checks from establishment folks to stay under the radar.

It blows my mind how the Napergate Man could uncover all of this corruption and most of us 500 people bloggin here don't even know where to start.

Maybe Joe can guide us how to look for corruption since he seems to be the wise man amongst us! Of course, Joe is never willing to help unless it makes the Establishment smell like roses for its wrongdoing!

Mr. Popo,

The below is from Rodi's post that was deleted on the police OT thread:

********************************************************************

"PROBABLY" AS YOU USE IT BASICALLY MEANS DISCRIMINATION. I BELIEVE THE CITY OF NAPERVILLE WILL ALSO "PROBABLY" BE FACING A DISCRIMINATION SUIT SOMETIMES BEFORE THE STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS EXPIRES ON THE INCIDENT IN QUESTION THAT IS NOT TO BE MENTIONED BY NAME.

I also did not like your word TYPICALLY. Why not say, I WILL WRITE you a citation. It sounds to me Mr. Popo, you have been exposed of possible alleged discrimination right on this blog site.

Do you not write tickets to relatives or friends? My guess is yes!

Do you not write tickets to fellow officers? My guess is yes!

Do you not write tickets to certain council members who you like? My guess is yes!

Do you believe in professional courtesy? My guess is yes!

Let us face it Mr. Popo! You are anonymous here. You slipped up big time.

Why not clear your conscience and tell us the truth about police practices? Don't underestimate the intelligence of Napervillians!

********************************************************************

I don't believe you answered any of the questions posed by Rodi. If possible, I would like you to anwser them here.

I would like you to address the arrest of the Napergate Man at 2:15am and tell me if it was necessary to handcuff, arrest, and jail him overnight. You seem to have admitted police officers are given discretion and should be allowed to reason when a physical arrest is necessary and when one is not.

Please tell me how discretion as you understand it works in the Napergate Man case.

Why can't he just take his dog home and turn himself in voluntarily?

Why can't he just be I-Bonded on the spot and told not to drive anymore but to call for a ride?

Why can't he just pay the $100 dollars to bail out since he had it on him, if I-Bonding is not acceptable?

What purpose does arresting the Napergate Man really serve to society since he is not a flee risk and the violation is as petty as they get?

Why is discretion not applied when a police officer realizes it was not the Dad that was the culprit but a 16 year old child learning how to change lanes who missed paying a .40 cent(s) tolls?

Would a police officer be arrested if his daughter or son ran a toll and he did not know about it?

Would a council member in good standing with the establishment other than DF be arrested for such a petty offense and incarcerated overnight?

As Rodi and Lucas stated before me, tell us the truth about how you apply discretion and if you apply it equally to all including your friends, relatives, fellow police officers and neighbors!!!

Research project:

*The City was allowing developers to buy into the City parking decks at a small fraction of the cost instead of providing parking for their new buildings.

*The most recent one was the new bank building on Main just south of the river on the corner of Water Street.

*Find the original assessment of the building, the number of parking spaces the city sold them rights to for a tiny fraction of the cost. Then find the price that the owners sold the building for a very short time later.

-What was the cost of the building?

-What was the price vs. cost for the parking spaces and how many?

-What was the price the building was sold for to the new owners?

-What was the profit?

-Who were the original owners of the building? This will require searching corporate charter documents and who did the legal work. It may require figuring out who the trustees are.

-How long did the original owners of the building own the building for after they get the parking spaces from the City?

If you like the Library Deck you will love this one.

You can do the same exercise for any of the newer buildings in the Downtown.

To: By South of 111th on April 24, 2008 9:06 AM

Take any number you want for the cost of the parking deck and calculate the amount of sales required to pay for the deck/s at 1% of sales, its in the Billions in new sales.

Lucas, once again the cult's trademark lack of reading comprehension is on display. I did not say anything about posting on the library deck thread, as I never did. All my numbers and opinions are on this thread, which you either did not fully read or fully comprehend.

Why is it when the cult members have no valid point, they have to resort to false claims about other posters? If Jim wanted to take the time, he could tell you all my posts come from the same computer and the account identifiers are different from the other people you accuse me of being. But why would he enter into your conspiracy fantasy, Lucas? As Jim has said before, he has more important things to do.

South of 111th,

It is always nice to have new bloggers join us on the Napergate Thread. I want to extend you a welcome!

I don't dispute these parking spots can bring in $1.00 to $5.00 per day in sales tax revenue to the city. But as you realized the money is coming from you and not the landlords who are benefiting from this free parking. Besides this sales tax you as a taxpayer contributed when you bought your merchandize, you also paid to subsidize their parking through your home real estate tax bill. The landlords contributed not a penny while charging 50 bucks per square foot of ground level retail and 35 bucks per square foot of office space on higher levels.

What is not that well known, is the owners of this huge Promenade Building also own that huge Barnes and Nobles Building. Neither has one single parking spot. The owners are worth over a 100 million and could have easily installed underground parking under each of their buildings.

But since they are establishment folks who are in bed with City Officials and connected through the Brestal Law Firm, they made a windfall profit by making you and I pay for their parking. There were no Napergate Ads to stop them this time so they did as they pleased.

Mr. Lynch was not yet the Editor/Publisher of the Sun, so the Naperville Sun was not yet performing its Watch Dog duties as it is now on its blog site. Hopefully, Mr. Lynch will one day extend the Watch Dog duties to the print edition of his newspaper.

Instead of building one large building and a parking deck or underground parking to support it, they made us residential taxpayers pay for their parking and proceeded to build a second huge building at taxpayer expense with the money we paid to build them free parking at our expense.

It really seems crazy if you ask me! I think the next election will finally end estbalishment rule in this town as it has gone a bit too far with the breaks they have given themselves at the expense of the average taxapayers, who migrated to Naperville for a better life only to be socked which ever way possible for taxes, in order for the establishment bosses to further enrich themselves.

Lucas,

How about we all pick a meeting time at the Naperville Sun offices to meet with the moderator.

We can all wear nametags with our posting handles on them and they can see how many physical bodies are really there and willing to show they are their own person.

You can even take my picture if you want. Be ready to bring all couple hundred of your Napergatian friends each with their own handles willing to take some pop quizes about previous things they posted about to validate they are who they claim to be.

Deal?

If you bring out the numbers and they can answer some simple questions about previous things THEY posted and even show me their real estate tax bills and a picture ID to prove it really is their property and their name is on the tax bill, I will multiple the city fund portion by .8% and give the top 20 posters a refund for police overtime that they had to pay for last year. How's that for an incentive?

My portion worked out to just about $6.00 What's yours work out to?

Make sure to bring Virginia, McFarland, Ameena, HE lady, Cindy, Wendy, Molly, Debbie, Marshall, Lisha and anyone else I forgot.

I was wondering if there is any information or research that has been done regarding how much revenue each parking space may bring to the city? Everyone's calculations regarding the cost to build and maintain each space have been interesting (although each group disputes the others). A final number should be added, however, and this is the revenue that each spot brings to the city in the form of sales tax, or an additional downtown tax.

I recently went downtown and spent $60 at BD's Mongolian (excellent fun place by the way), and then $25 at Barnes & Noble before finishing with $38 at Eddie Bauer. I am just estimating here, but if a 1% downtown tax is imposed this would bring the city $1.23 on my last trip. I was there about 2 1/2 hours so obviously others would use the space as well. The actual revenue could be hard to calculate, but it's not too much of a stretch to say that each space can / would / should bring in anywhere from $1.00 to $5.00 per day?

Again - this is only my empirical theory and I could easily be missing something, but I am just throwing this out there because it should be considered when factoring in the cost of each parking space. I also understand this is easy to calculate on items purchased such as food and clothes, but I do not know how this works for services such as law offices, insurance agents, hair cutting places, etc. (Do attorneys or insurance agents charge this downtown tax?)

Ken,
If you were on the library deck, debating with us you must have been invisible. After many weeks of debating, the only person who showed any opposition was a lady named Brenda. Both the Napergate Party and the Establishment Party agreed in a rare case of unanimity, that the library deck was not worth the cost. Most also felt that scnenic residential part of town should be left alone. Others felt there was plenty of parking downtown and never had any trouble finding a spot.

Since only one person supported the library deck, and you are now saying you are that one person, I guess you forgot you were disguised as Brenda when you supported the library deck. It seems like you go to a library computer to be Ken, a coffee house to be Brenda and when you are at home you are Joe. It is amazing how much trouble one person can cause on these blog sites. I guess you can technically fool Moderator Jim, for a while, but I think eventually he will figure out King Ken, Prince Joe, and Queen Brenda are all the same and one person. At best, it is a happily married royal family supporting the rich and famous in town.

First, Lucas, thanks for making me King. Is there any sort of renumeration that goes with the title?

Second, I to have posted numbers on the cost of the library deck and have commented extensively, with research, about the existing decks. If you had bothered to read any of those posts in which I commented, you would see why I grudgingly support the parking decks. You would also see why I consider the downtown to strip mall comparisons as irrelevant.

Third, I would be more impressed if any of the "answers" supplied by the cult's "blogging" were factual. For the most part, those "answers" seem to be based on hearsay claimed to be fact. I think you should take your own advice, and pass it on to the rest of the cult Lucas. If you don't know, simply say you don't know.

I don't know what Rodi's statement would add to the discussion, Eric. It is just the basic conspiracy theory put forth by the napergatians ad nauseam. It has already been shown on that other thread that there was no overtime involved in the arrest, which is their other claim.

As for the cop's use of typically and probably, those words mean exactly that. Until anyone can prove that a Wherli, Moser, or Pradel got a break in town because of their name, it is all speculation on their part that their beloved napergate man was singled out. All the cop did by his word choice was indicate that there are always exceptions to the rule. Why this is earth shattering news is beyond me. I am also puzzled as to why the napergatians continue to act surprised that the police don't ticket their own. While this is wrong, it has gone on ever since police forces have been in existence.

As the cop indicated, and the napergate man seems to realize, good luck proving discrimination in court.

Ken,
In reality the Napergatians have done tons of research to compute the cost of this downtown parking.

Two of them, Randy and Liebert, knew the Napergate Man and hung around his plaza. They provided very good comparative analysis between downtown and strip shop parking costs from knowledge they obviously obtained from the Napergate Man while hanging around him. I found it very educational.

Randy went as far as computing the cost per parking spot in a downtown mulit level parking deck. He may have not been 100% accurate but he tried his best with the information at hand. Did you not see his calculations, Ken? Where are your calculations if you disagree with his?

I believe Realtor Ryan did something similar while we were on the library thread. And possibly Liebert, too!

Mickie's Napergatian friend went straight to Executive Director Patti Roberts to gather information about downtown parking.

Much information on these blogs comes from them. Most of what you establishment guys do is try to dispute what ever the Napergatians discover in essence by attacking the messenger instead of the message since you never have any facts, data or any kind of information for that matter. What knowledge can you possibly have when you, King Ken, have adopted a career of bashing and even surpassed his Highness Joe. I really thought that was impossible but you did it. Congratulations are in order for you for replacing Joe, as the number one basher on Jim's Blog Site.

I guess Joe went from working 18 hours a day to bloggin 18 hours a day. I guess he finally burned out little and passed the CROWN to you.

But seriously, Ken, when all you do is blog here day and night, you are really contributing nothing. I suspect you guys are addicted and can no longer control yourselves.

It is very odd that you guys are willing to subsidize parking for the owners of the Promenade Building who are reportedly worth over a 100 million. Also for that Northern Bank Builing on Main Street owned by a Moser who is proabably worth a few hundred million.

I think Tom was asking you or anybody to if they had any knowledge regarding some dumpsters downtown. You establishment supporting guys seem to think you know everything, so he was asking if anyone knew who paid for those dumpsters downtown in those public parking lots. I think that was a legitimate question to ask.

With so many of us blogging together someone usually has the answer suddenly or in a day or two. That is the beauty of these blogs. We all don't have to work as hard as the Napergate Man who had to break doors walls to get his information.

So if you don't know, simply say you don't know. No need to go on the attack like a pit pull! The Napergatians have done most of the legwork so far. The Naperville Sun has also done some legwork. The GANG OF FIVE which you are a member has done no legwork. All you guys do is engage in destructive behavior! It really is as if you guys enjoy this debate for the sake of your "highs" as opposed to trying to make Naperville a better and affordable city for all of us to live in. I believe that was the goal of the Napergate Man and it is the current goal of most Napergatians.

Sincerely,
Lucas

Mr. Moderator,
I saw that post below on the wrong thread before it was deleted. I agree it belongs here. On the other hand I believe Blogger Rodi was just trying to prove a police man wrong and really ripped him apart. In some funny way, the police man known as Mr. Popo conceded to Blogger Rodi that he was right!

While we do have to obey your rules, I beleive the below letter could have generated some serious debate. But according to your new rules, I can post it here so I hope you allow it.

Eric.

====================================================================

By Rodi on April 23, 2008 2:17 PM

By Mr Popo on April 23, 2008 1:07 PM

Anonymous IIII / Joe,
If your registration is suspended then I will typically write a citation and let you be on your way-that is what I've been doing for years without any problems. If your drivers license is suspended you PROBABLY will get arrested-it does not matter what the suspension is for or how many times you have been arrested.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. POPO,

I capitalized your word PROBABLY! I find that word very very very DISTURBING!

This is really what this case that is bothering us in our town for 6 months, IS all about.

Yes, you proved our point!

PROBABLY in Naperville means if it had been the daughter of a Wehrli, Moser, Dial or Pradel who had run a toll booth, their DADS would PROBABLY not be arrested and jailed even if their license or license plates were suspended with or without their knowledge BECAUSE OF THE ACTIONS OF THEIR CHILDREN!

But PROBABLY in Naperville also means if this individual in OPPOSITION TO THE POLITICAL ESTABLISHMENT who we can not mention by name or title, encountered the same scenario, he would PROBABLY be arrested and jailed overnight. Expending and encountering unnecessary overtime is of no issue when it concerns this ONE PERSON!

Just watch and see how this word PROBABLY of yours which translates to DISCRETION in our language is going to put another lawsuit on our doorsteps which which will cost us another MILLION to defend like Council Man Dick Furstenau's lawsuit is costing us!

Just watch, Mr. Popo's!!!

"PROBABLY" AS YOU USE IT BASICALLY MEANS DISCRIMINATION. I BELIEVE THE CITY OF NAPERVILLE WILL ALSO "PROBABLY" BE FACING A DISCRIMINATION SUIT SOMETIMES BEFORE THE STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS EXPIRES ON THE INCIDENT IN QUESTION THAT IS NOT TO BE MENTIONED BY NAME.

I also did not like your word TYPICALLY. Why not say, I WILL WRITE you a citation. It sounds to me Mr. Popo, you have been exposed of possible alleged discrimination right on this blog site.

Do you not write tickets to relatives or friends? My guess is yes!

Do you not write tickets to fellow officers? My guess is yes!

Do you not write tickets to certain council members who you like? My guess is yes!

Do you believe in professional courtesy? My guess is yes!

Let us face it Mr. Popo! You are anonymous here. You slipped up big time.

Why not clear your conscience and tell us the truth about police practices? Don't underestimate the intelligence of Napervillians!

We are much smarter than you think!

What's the deal, Tom? First the napergatians want the Sun to do their legwork, and now you want us to do it? You would think that with the numbers you claim for your group, you could have a research department. It is your question, you find out the answer.

By the way, Tom, everyone who sees the benefits of public parking and a vibrant downtown are cannot be a business or property owner. They are just people who have and use common sense.

By Naperville Sun editors on April 23, 2008 1:40 PM
Moderator Jim to Lisha: Good food for thought there, Lisha. Let me think about it...meanwhile all you Napergatians are doing a fine job and thanks for sticking to the rules. Your cooperation is appreciated.

____________________________________________________________________

As a long term Napergatian, I would like to thank you on behalf of all Napergatians for your nice comment.

We rarely get recognized for anything even though we try our best.

We are more than willing to stick with the rules as long as we are allowed to blog somewhere.

As you can see we are not picky! We have been bloggin on an archived site for a long time and we are comfortable with it. We have found it and Napervillians have found it so it is gradually becomeing very effective again.

It was just a matter of time before everyone learned that an archived site can be just as good as a MAIN PAGE LIVE THREAD if we all learn how to access it....which it seems has happened.

We also have bragging rights to the most successful ARCHIVED THREAD ever on Jim's Blogs! You can't dispute that, Mr. Moderator!

Ken,
The root of those huge Napergate battles in the late 90s and early 2000s, was Brestal trying to rezone Spring Green and SW GATE from residential to commercial to enrich developers.

We asked the Napergate Man to step in and help us since he lived in the adjoining subdivision to mine which was to suffer the greatest impact by far due to this commercial encroahment inside of our subdivisions. He agreed to help us and his own subdivision of Pembroke Commons. At some point the battle expanded to SW GATE(corner of 75th Street and Naper Blvd) plot and involved subdivisions from a few miles in each direction being seriously involved to help under the leadership of the Napergate Man.

Obviously we went to him, becasue we saw his success in fighting the city with his liquor license problems and the extreme effectiveness of the Napergate ads in obtaining grass roots support. We were hoping he could transfer his talents to development issues. Luckily for us, he was!

Right now, a developer is trying to change zoning on the SW corner of 75th Street and Wehrli Rd. About 100 Napergatians and non-Napergatians have been fighting the city and developer on a biweekly basis for almost a year. We have not gotten the publicity the Naperate Man used to give us with his Napergate ads but we are doing our best to stop this project and so far it seems like we are at least delaying it or possibly halting it.

My understanding from some of my neighbors is the Napergate Man does not like to get involved until the City of Naperville makes the wrongful decision. He kind of likes to watch and see if they will get it right without his interference. Possibly because he is busy or wants to spend some time with his kids and dog. No one can devote his entire life to fighting City Hall even if he is good at it!

In all his historic actions if one studies him very carefully, he never got involved unless he had to REVERSE a WRONGFUL COUNCIL DECISION!

John Q. Public,

You continue to skate discussing the issues by dealing with the exceptions.

Many of the few businesses that went out of business in downtown were businesses that had their rent suddenly doubled by their landlords when their leases expired. They did not go out of business but were in essence kicked out by greedy landlords who wanted more successful national chain outlets who could pay double the rent!

When landlords downtown can charge double to triple the rent landlords only a mile or two outside of downtown charge, you have an ARTIFICIALLY CREATED SITUATION AND ENVIRONMENT! Caused of couse, by SUBSIDIZATION!!!

Maybe the focus should be on squeezing landlords for the parking costs and not the tenants/businesses. I have never heard of a landord going out of business in downtown Naperville. Have you?

Let us not forget the landlords outside of downtown build and pay for their own parking and maintain it along with cooperation of their tenants with 0 NET COST to the residential taxpayers!

And none of you city supporters bothered to answer the question of who pays for those dumpsters that the business downtown use jointly and can be found in the flat public parking areas. The city or the businesses? In strip centers the businesses pay for them.

If you 5 or 6 guys who blog so much would take a break and make a phone call once in a while we may be able to get some answers. But unlike the Napergatians, you guys literally live on these blogs as if you were all addicted to the rises you get. Let us grow up and look for solutions instead of rises!

Are you possibly a downtown landlord, Mr. Public, reaping these windfall profits or are you simply one of these individuals who comes here to argue nonsense for the sake of arguing nonsense, instead of helping us arrive at serious solutions?

Lisha,

It seems like you are trying to find or create conflict where there isn't any.

It's perfectly OK for Virginia and I to disagree on the amount of the fees. Estimating them should be mostly a no brainer. Costs to build roads, run sewer, water, electrical, gas, communications, etc are pretty well known in the industry. Take the costs based on how far a city needs to build the infrastructure and simply ensure that amount of money is levied in some way shape or form in completion to the development. If it's not, there is your existing tax payer subsidy that was mentioned.

Applying those fees to existing downtown landlords gets interesting. In trying to do this, it would be very easy to KILL the downtown businesses if done improperly. I'm sure some people longing for yesteryear might see that as a good thing (basically booting the carpetbaggers out of town). The decent thing to do would be to start a new fee structure where any NEW person needs to pay into the pot. Retroactively, existing owners should have to pay into a different 'pool' of funding for 'infrastructure and business support maintenance' which can include free parking for their customers, etc.

Also, save yourself the embarrassment and don't make assumptions about someone's work status or income levels. Enjoy the Wednesday.

Just out of idle curiosity, do any of you napergatians know for a fact that the developers that built the Promenade Building did not pay an impact fee for the parking garage on Van Buren? The Sun reported that the first two decks were financed through public and developer fees. Seems to me that might have been included in the Promenades building fees, but I do not know for sure if that happened.

Ronald, where did you get your numbers? Are they factual, or just numbers you think are right? When you bring up the 75th street parcel, how was that zoned? If it was zoned residential, the NIMBY's had a right to complain. If the original zoning was commercial, the city should let it be developed commercially. I built a house in a subdivision that had commercial development zoned on one edge of it. I checked out the zoning of all blank spots in our subdivision and chose a lot away from the commercial boundaries. Most people are stupid enough to believe their Realtors and then complain when when businesses want to build where allowed. If a subdivision wants a property to remain undeveloped, they should buy it. Otherwise, it should be developed as intended.

"He pointed out many other businesses and landlords who are reaping this windfall profit. He mentioned businesses that had lines of people fighting to get in...this usually means 50% profit or more."

Gail, if you are an expert in the restaurant industry, then I will accept your statement as circumstantial evidence. Otherwise, it is complete speculation. But even if it were true, we still have restaurants and other businesses downtown that fail, and others that likely would fail if the city were to start taking 10% of their revenue. Unless, of course, they were able to raise their prices by 10-11% with no loss of customers, which would still leave the public footing the bill.

Joe,
Your latest response to Virginia was disoriented.

Virgina pointed out that the city at the time installed IMPACT FEES so new homeowners would not get a free ride. They tried their best. No one can figure out the cost of infrastructure down to the last penny...especially not our City Officials who are clueless to what they even spent on 10 years of 2 Napergate Trials.

But give the City of Naperville credit for trying with the IMPACT FEES whether is was a little less or a little more.

What we, including Virginia are asking, is could some impact fees be put on the landlords downtown who need all this parking for their tenants and customers but skated on the responibility of providing it?

Joe, try not to go against everything the Napergatians say just because they are Napergatians. You seem intelligent so think logically about some of this unfairness they are pointing out to you, me and others. It really seems quite transparent!

It is also costs you, me as well as them! I assume you are now retired on LIMITED income after working all those 18 hour days during the Napergate Era!

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. Lynch,

What is a possibility of an article in your Print Edition exposing how this Promenade Buidling got away with no parking! Maybe exposing the Brestal connection while you are at it.

Maybe if the Print Edition informs the 75-90% who are still not bloggin, they will also become outraged, and no building owner would ever be allowed to build such a huge stucture covering an entire block without first building underground parking. We need your help, Mr. Lynch, to help fix our town. I know you are a new comer and missed all those Napergate ads as you were on the East Coast but the Napergate Man told it as it was. He would never have this kind of support in town if he did not tell us the TRUTH!!!

John Q. Public,

I think you need to read Ronald's letter again instead of skimming it. He pointed out many other businesses and landlords who are reaping this windfall profit. He mentioned businesses that had lines of people fighting to get in...this usually means 50% profit or more.

Do you think you could be kind enough to try to address for example the Promenade Building which reaped windfall profits by not contributing a penny to parking and forced us taxpayers to subsidize its large parking needs through additional real estate taxes imposed on our 45,000 homes in Naperville?

By Naperville Sun editors on April 23, 2008 11:26 AM
Moderator Jim to Loretta: Look, it's very simple. If you want to discuss police OT and bring in Napergate, just do it on the Napergate thread. Thanks.

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Moderator,
I think you are finally being fair, Mr. Moderator. You have in essence reversed your stance on Cynthia's and Amy's letters which I also received a copy of.

Let us keep this Napergate Open Forum open to all discussions pertaining to Napergate which covers all aspects of improprieties by City Hall, the Naperville Police, the Park District Police, City Attorneys, City Prosecutors, and any city department that abuses taxpayer money.

My recollection is the Napergate Man took on everything except the school system in his 100 Napergate and non-Napergate ads. He did leave the schools out of it, so we should leave the schools out of it and to the best of my knowledge since schools is a non-Napergate issue, I have never seen a Napergatian go there to discuss school issues.

Napergatians are not on threads to get rises like the Gang of Five who can be found on all 10 threads of the Main Page. We have an agenda. Our agenda is to change the policies of the existing government! If we can not, our intent is simply to oust them in the next election by showing up in large numbers just as we did during the Napergate Era. We came within one city council member of ousting them. If the establishment folks want to continue their arrogance in government, they should enjoy it because they have less than a year left.

Keep subsidizing your downtown friends, keep giving your Chief Dial our taxpayer money to distribute to his officers in OT based on fiefdom loyalties, keep harassing the Napergate Man and you will be eventually ousted in a landslide victory. I have no doubt that Jim's Blogs will approach the power of those Napergate ads by next year as anyone can notice the increase of blogging on any thread. Look at threads 6 months ago. Many of them were lucky to get a single blogger. Now a thread that can't get a 100 posts on the Main Page is considered a failure. One can see the power of this blog site increasing by the day and as long as Napergatians are not banned, the Establishment is pretty much over in the next election. People are learning the truth that has been hidden from them since the last Napergate Ad. What we are learning on this blog site is just horrendous. Hopefully the print edition will follow suit one day and be as hard hitting as this incredible blog site.

We have come very close in the past to ousting the establishment and this blog site is just maybe what will help us get over the final hurdle and oust this "arrogant infested" Establishment Party and replace it with the humble and fair Napergate Party!

Thanks for understanding and allowing us to blog on this thread about OT after previously denying us that opportunity. I really appreciate your reversal, Mr. Moderator! You showed you can be a very fair man if you want to be and are not pressured by the gangsters on these threads! You showed a lot of courage with your latest decision!

Keep us the good work and I hope we can all work together to make your blog site one of the best in America! THANX!!!

Ronald,

You put 1 and 1 together and came up with 100. Trevor named exactly one downtown business that supposedly has a 50% profit margin. We also talked earlier about a restaurant that is claimed to earn $80,000 in revenue (not profit) from it's patio business on summer week-ends. From this you have somehow extrapolated that most dowtown businesses have 50% profit margins. Do you have evidence that these windfall profits go way beyond Starbucks? If so, please present it. And please explain also why there have been several downtown business failures in the last few years, and a vacancy or two that has gone unfilled for some time. If I were a merchant, and I could increase my margins from 5% to 50% just by relocating, I'd jump all over it.

-JQP

Virginia,

I agree with you that the IMPACT FEES were a remedy. I disagree that the fees were set high enough to actually provide equity to the rest of the taxpayers. Personally, I think the IMPACT to the city was/is higher than the fees imposed. The cost of building out infrastructure where there was none costs more money than the feed collected.

If someone has a financial analysis that shows X subdivision generated Y impact fees and the true impact was really less than Y resulting in a city profit then I'll eat my shoes willingly. Otherwise, we subsidized it :)

Moderator Jim,

The Amy and Cynthia letters were circulated on the mass e-mail network of the Napergatians.

They neither contained profanity or libel.

I think you have a serious dilemma of sorts.

Not speaking of the specific letters as that may be prohibited, but speaking in generalities it seems odd since the Napergate Man was arrested during police OT we can not address the issue here or on the police thread.

You have to give us the green light to speak about OT as to how it pertains to Napergatians either here or on the police thread.

Since Cynthia's and Amy's letters were about OT with a twist of Napergte and the Napergate Man they should have been permitted to be posted here.

Your comments to Anonymous and Downtown contradict your actual actions.

Napergatians have been discussing police OT on this thread long before the Police OT thread. They even recommended the POLICE OT thread which could have been a massive success if Napergatians could debate all the police and their wives that are suddenly popping up from nowhere!

You need to either let them discuss it here or there. Your deletions of Amy and Cynthia's letter were uncalled for. All those kinds of actions do is discourage Napergatians from blogging on your threads. I urge you to repost them as they were neither libelous or contained a single word of profanity. While the Napergatians are seeing the letters thru e-mail, the non-Napergatians are being CENSORED in what they can read or hear! No wonder they believe the Establishment can do no wrong as they are not allowed to see the wrongs committed by the establishment due to the CENSORING of letters. Joe should be speaking up AGAINST censorship, but obviously he believes in CENSORSHIP as long as it helps the establishment stay in power.

Yesterday or following Amy and Cynthia's deleted letters, I noticed a significant decline of Napergatians bloggin. However I noticed in the last week a significant increase of non-Napergatian bloggin on your threads.

What puzzles me is why you would want to interfere with the exponential success of your blog site by hindering free speech which was seen when you trashed so many letters on this thread which is an OPEN FORUM, first for mentioning the public comments of a retailer in a PUBLIC FORUM and second for mentioning Police OT on a Napergate Open Forum as it pertains to the Napergate Man or the Napergatian School of Thought.

Again, you need to go back and see if the Napergatians really ever tried to hijack your threads. They had a pattern of only debating on ONE of your 10 Main Page threads that pertained to an issue that concerned them. They left the other 9 threads alone. You fell for a seed planted by the Gang of Five instead of going for your better judgment as a Professional News Man.

Now the Napergatians are focused on an ARCHIVED DEAD THREAD that they some how livened out of the DEAD to make it possibly the most active thread on the Sun's Blog Site, and you are harassing them by censoring them and even trashing numerous of their letters.

It seems like if you did not delete all their letters and impose so many rules on this specific group, you would have had your first 1000 post thread.

What rules do you have on establishment folks to blog? None! Have you ever banished an establishment blogger? No! D.bone would have been a perfect blogger to banish in the old days as he caused so much hostility which resulted in the loss of Ameena, who was your site's favorite blogger, as voted by her peers!

As you recall D.bone's post was deleted per a request from Ameena. It was later put back on causing chaos and in essence slapping Ameena in the face after she was unjustifiably reversed.

If you want to be a POLICE MAN on these blogs, instead of a MODERATOR, I think you need to direct the traffic in an organized and orderly fashion. Right now it seems like you are a biased POLICE MAN monitoring a check point by pulling all the Napergatians over for a sobriety test while you waive all the Establishment Folks thru your check point without any scrutiny whatsoever!!! At least check to see if they are wearing their seat belts, Mr. Moderator!

Thanks for allowing me to express my dissenting opinion on your blog site!

By John Q. Public on April 22, 2008 10:46 AM
Trevor,

"I am an investor on the Stock Market and I can tell you this kind of profitability is very rare."

Most businesses do NOT have 50% profit margins. My understanding is that many retailers actually earn less than 5%, so if you take 10% of their revenue, you drive them out of business---or force them to increase their prices.

____________________________________________________________________

Mr. Public,
I think you missed the point of Trevor. What he was saying is most businesses do not make this king of profitability EXCEPT in downtown Naperville where they are SUBSIDIZED.

There are numerous restaurants and bars downtown that have LINES to get in especially in the summer months. I am not allowed to name them but some exist on Chicago Ave and some exist on Jefferson and some exist elsewhere.

They are also making 50% profits like the balcony business and Starbucks because they do not have to foot this huge CAM(Common Area Maintenance) expense footed by non-downtown retailers. Some of these nightclubs downtown squeeze hundreds of patrons in while we pay for their parking allowing them to make this windfall profit.

If you go outside downtown Naperville and build a bar with 500 capacity, the owner needs to buy 3 acres for parking. An acre of commercial land in Naperville almost anywhere cost 2 million bucks. So he would encounter a 6 million cost just for the land. Paving it would be another half a million. And on top of that he is taxed annually for his parking lot just as he is for his building.

This is why downtown guys can make this 50% NET PROFIT while the rest of the country is lucky to make 5% or 10% in NET PROFIT. What don't you get Mr. John Q. Public?

It seems the Napergatians are the only ones in this town who understand the true cost of parking and security in the downtown. To me it seems very plainly obvious.

Randy, Liebert, Realtor Ryan, Trevor and Anonymous and Downtown have explained it over and over again, Mr. Public. Do you honestly not get it?

If so ask your specific questions and let me and others try to help you get it. But once again Trevor was saying OUTSIDE of the downtown Naperville and the rest of the USA businesses make 5 to 10%. Yes, you would run those businesses "Out of downtown Naperville" out of business, if you charged them 10% of revenue for parking. You won't have to because they are only making 5 to 10% Net Profit because they are already PAYING FOR THEIR PARKING AND OTHER REAL EXPENSES!

But in downtown Naperville because they are NOT PAYING FOR THEIR PARKING, security and other city services, they are making 50% net profit in most places. So let us charge them 10% of their revenue for parking and leaving them with 40% of their net profit! What is wrong with that? (Just out of curiosity does any one know if the downtown garabge dumpsters are funded by the business owners or residential taxpayers...my suspician is they are funded by the City with our tax dollars but I am not 100% sure...hope someone can help here) For those who do not know stip shopping center tenants pay for their own garbage pick-up to private services out of their profits!!!

If you don't want to charge the businesses for parking and other services, charge landlords like the Promenade Building who are reaping 50 dollars in rent per square foot without providing one single parking spot. How did they manage that? You guessed it! By suckering the majority of our UNENLIGHTENED city council members to waive an underground garage for them and providing them with residential taxpayer funded high rise garages. I am sure the Brestal Law Firm was involved in that sweet heart deal

I know you are intelligent Mr. John Q. Public. So I am quite confused that you believe the cost of this parking must come from the public one way or another, instead of from the windfall profits of both the landlords and downtown businesses who are the ones reaping the financial benefits and contributing NOTHING as of today!

All it would take is a City Council decision to make sure this money comes from those who should pay it and not those who should not have to pay it.

If the Napergate Man was active, I guarantee you he would have filled those Council Chambers and forced the City Council to take corrective action. On an issue like this he would have filled the entire building let alone Council Chambers. Look at the 100-1 vote against the library deck on the Library Thread 2 months ago. I don't think any of his numerous issues where he reversed City Hall were this black and white.

I think the City Council has lost it again since the Napergate Man retired. He really had Mr. Brestal under control. He was in his face literally right in City Hall telling him all he cares about was his WALLET. He made sure over a hundred people heard him say that during a recess. I was one of the hundred who heard it.

I bet you the Brestal Law Firm is behind this mess in downtown Naperville. They specialize in enriching the establishment against the residents. The Napergate Man exposed that Law Firm. They have not dared to approach 75th Street for 10 years because of what he did. But they are feeling comfortable now or possibly testing him to see if he will pop up and rally the residents again against 75th Street commercialization alongside and in residential neighborhoods and subdivisions. Every acre Mr. Brestal can convert from residential to commercial on 75th ST. triples the price to the Establishment landowner of that acre. Neither Brestal or the Establishment care one iota about this town. All they care about is their wealth at the expense of others.

The Establishment and the Brestal Law Firm drew the Master Plan for this town in a way where the town would be balanced between residential and commercial. But at some point when land values went through the roof, they all got greedy and decided to convert residential to commercial for the windfall profit at any opportunity and especially when the Napergate Man was not watching. They have never feared the Naperville Sun. But they always feared the Napergate Man, his Napergate Ads, and his massive grass roots organization who he always knew how to deliver to the election booths and make a significant difference.

Those were the lessons of the Napergate Man. He taught us well. Now hopefully you can all see how those ESTABLISHMENT FOLKS decided to enrich themselves at our expense yet one more time in DOWNTOWN NAPERVILLE!

Thank you!

Joe,
I am responding to a letter of yours that I saw here earlier but disappeared despite 10 refreshes. I think the Sun has some kind of computer glitch that does not always show the latest posts and probably slows down blogging since bloggers want to respond to the latest blogs and not olderst blogs.

Anyway, Joe, from recollection, I remember you saying we also subsidized all the farmland downtown to Plainfield.

When you were working 18 hours a day for umpteen years and missed those Napergate ads, you also must have missed the IMPACT FEES assessed on each house to pay for its proprotionate part of infrastructure. The impact fee was added because the residential developers were not quite paying enough.

I recall reading that these impact fees ranged from $2400 dollar per home to upwards possibly of $10,000. Can't recall specifics but I recall IMPACT FEES IMPOSED and residential developers and new homeowners screaming. I recall the old homeowners were very happy about the impact fees because they were no longer subsidizing the new homeowners with their tax dollars.

The situation was remedied with IMPACT FEES.

Since John Q. Public wants solutions maybe we can have a one time reverse IMPACT FEE on each developer, landlord or business owner who got a away with murder.

Start with the huge Promenade Building owned by establishment folks worth over 100 million and tell them to pay 5 to 10 million for skipping on their parking responsibility. The owners made huge, I mean humongous, profits off our ordinary taxpayers, by dividing the cost of their parking amongst 45,000 households thinking we would not notice. How terrible!

Well thanks to the Napergate Man and his supporters this stuff just does not slide. Maybe the Napergate Man is not speaking publically but he is known to speak privately to his neighbors and friends while walking his dog who must be keeping us informed thru some kind of osmosis what his latest assessment on the situation may be!

I am sure many of them are passing on his insightful knowledge gained from 25 years of having the Establishment under the microscope as they have had him under the microscope.

What comes around goes around! The Napergate Man knows how to play the game! The Establishment will not be able to outsmart the Napergate Man and his supporters with all these freebies. I suspect if they don't pay up now, they will pay up BIG TIME at the next election!

By Naperville Sun editors Author Profile Page on April 21, 2008 6:31 PM

Moderator Jim to Marshall: You can discuss the NPD, the alleged injustices done to the Napergate man etc. etc. on the Napergate thread. All I'm trying to do is to maintain some order on these threads i.e. I don't want the police OT thread becoming something that morphs into more Napergatian issues. The police OT thread is there for everybody....Napergatians can certainly post there, just keep Napergate out of it. It just gets too confusing. That's all. Nobody's trying to muzzle anyone. Thanks for listening, Marshall.

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Moderator Jim,

Just to make sure I understand you correctly. This thread was created to provide the Napergate posters with a "designated free speech zone" where they can pretty much comment on anything within the confines of not getting the Sun tied up in court cases or outright trash talk.

The Napergate posters are free to comment on any topic they want with a Napergate tie in on this thread. So police overtime posts on this thread are OK and this is where the Napergate crowd can attempt to make their tie in with Napergate. (Yes?)

So, if the Napergate posters believed that Sun Spots are relevant to this thread, you will post their comments? (Yes?)

What you won't post is Napergate on every other thread, correct? (Yes?)

Kevin,
You have to understand many of us are not full time bloggers, we read fast, sometimes skim, and it usually works. This time I thought I grasped the meaning by reading fast and I missed a crucial sentence that negated what I THOUGHT!!!

Unlike, non-Napergatians I apologized quickly and took full responsibililty. I hope you understand not everyone is retired like Joe and Ken and can dissect every blog before posting. Sometimes we rush. I am rushing now so I can get ready and go to work.

As I said, I think you are a great guy. I thought I was helping you with my remarks. I was not! I apologize again!

Mark your calendar, Virginia:

"We are all subsidizing DOWNTOWN NAPERVILLE with our money whether it is directly or indirectly and it is very unfair."

I whole heartedly agree with that statement. We also paid out the whazoo to subsidize developers are they were paving the farmland all the way to Plainfield.

Virginia, this is not the first time someone has said that the Mayor snow plows to earn money to pay his real estate taxes...I understood Trevor's point and I can assure you it did not "fly over my head" like you said, however, in my entry I was only addressing that one part of Trevor's comments regarding the real estate taxes being paid by snow plow money. I am sure if Trevor knew that what he said was false he would not used it to make a point. I just think if we are going to remain credible we need to speak in facts and not in rumors. Sometimes on these threads, I have seen where blogger's opinions turn into facts and that is not a good thing. I guess if you read it over and over again people start to believe it. I just wanted to keep the record straight on that particular point.

This is a perfect example as look what happened when you missed the one sentence that probably would have prevented you from writing your entry asking for me to apologize and inferring that I am not credible because of something I never said. You start off by saying "if you are right" then go on to say "So you may be wrong on this one and may need to apologize to your fellow Napergatians" and then end up saying "I just want to correct you as the Napergate Man always wants us to be credible so we can continue to be a successful movement. The minute we lose our credibility we lose EVERYTHING we and the Napergate Man built for 20 plus years". For the most part you are giving me the benefit of the doubt especially when you said "Or maybe Ted is wrong and may need to apologize" until the end when you basically say that I am wrong and you needed to correct me. All of this back and forth could have been prevented if you read my entry more carefully in the first place...I have read enough of your entries to know that you are a very good person and I am not trying to get into an argument with you, but I just want to make the point that we all need to read more carefully sometimes before commenting on these threads...

Mr. Public,

You are correct! I missed one of his sentences. I apologize to Kevin and thanks for catching my error!

However, I think Trevor was just trying to say it is not proper for people to work as hard as the Mayor while subsidizing the downtown merchants. He was just trying to make a POINT and I think you guys took it literally as it flew over your heads as Kevin's one sentence flew over my head.

We are all subsidizing DOWNTOWN NAPERVILLE with our money whether it is directly or indirectly and it is very unfair.

Virgina, no apology needed on my side...I never said that he did not get paid to snow plow...I said the reason why he does it has nothing to do with him having to pay his real estate taxes from the money he makes snow plowing...By Kevin on April 22, 2008 12:21 PM "So unless someone has actual facts that the money he makes plowing snow goes directly to paying his real estate taxes, I would suggest we refrain from making that comment".

Please re-read my last entry and let me know if you have any more questions. Trust me, I believe a job should be a hobby you get paid for. That would be living the dream in my eye's!!

Virginia,

Please re-read Kevin's post. He did NOT say that the Mayor told him he doesn't get paid to plow. What Kevin said is that, while the Mayor DOES get plaid to plow, he plows snow because he likes too, not because he needs the money to pay his real estate taxes.

Kevin,
I am a fellow Napergatian. I just want to post this from the Mayor's Thread as I feel it is very important for us Napergatians to all be 100% credible and honest.

If you are right, you may have an issue with Host Ted. The Mayor does plow snow because he likes to do it. But he did not tell you he does not get paid for doing it. He is a very honest Mayor and would not lie. Therefore don't assume he may have told you he did not get paid just because he enjoys it. Many of us also enjoy our jobs but we do get paid.

This is a post from the Mayor's Thread! Please call or e-mail Ted if you have any questions. I am just a messenger who copied and pasted.

I don't think this statement would be made by Host Ted if it was not accurate. Other Napergatians were quoting Host Ted. So you may be wrong on this one and may need to apologize to your fellow Napergatians. Or maybe Ted is wrong and may need to apologize. My gut feeling though tell me Host Ted was RIGHT!

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By Anonymous on February 7, 2008 11:54 PM
did george have a cdl and was he getting paid 25.00 per hour

Response from Ted:

Good question. I understand the mayor was paid--contrary to our earlier report that he did it for free--and while I don't know for certain whether he has a commercial drivers license I can't imagine the mayor not being in compliance with whatever the requirements are to drive a plow.

____________________________________________________________________

Just for the record since I have not posted for quite a while, Host Ted was correct when he caught Debbie and I with the same IP number. We were bloggin together from the Dunkin Donuts in Spring Green. I know Debbie admitted this. I am admitting this. And Host Ted figured it out. However, I do not think it is inappropriate for 2 people to take their lap tops to Dunkin Donut, have a latte, discuss Napergate and blog together. We each took credit for what we wrote.

Just wanted to point out this so called "Gang of Five" on this blog site are people who have nothing better to do than analyze Napergatians instead of the important issues that concern our city. I also feel that T.B. is the 5th member of this gang. The other 4 are undisputed and ver well known!

____________________________________________________________________

Once again, Kevin, I think you do a great job on these blogs sites. I just want to correct you as the Napergate Man always wants us to be credible so we can continue to be a successful movement. The minute we lose our credibility we lose EVERYTHING we and the Napergate Man built for 20 plus years.

I also want to welcome you, Kevin, for joining our movement recently!

By Trevor on April 22, 2008 9:47 AM "It does seem sad or ironic that 70 year old Mayor George Pradel is plowing snow at 25 bucks an hour in inclimate weather to pay his real estate home tax bill".

Trevor, that statement of Mayor Pradel plowing the snow at $25 an hour to pay his real estate taxes is totally false...it was an opinion made by someone many months ago on a separate thread that somehow turned into a fact and it was false then and it is not anymore true now...so let's not add to it by spreading false rumors. The Mayor plows snow because he likes to do it, I have personally talked to him about this in the past as I thought it was interesting that he did plow the snow and that is what he told me. So unless someone has actual facts that the money he makes plowing snow goes directly to paying his real estate taxes, I would suggest we refrain from making that comment. It can muddy the water in an otherwise good discussion.

Trevor,

That was an interesting post, but all you've really done is point out another downtown business that does really well, and you glossed over the key point, which re-iterated what I said earlier:

"I am an investor on the Stock Market and I can tell you this kind of profitability is very rare."

Most businesses do NOT have 50% profit margins. My understanding is that many retailers actually earn less than 5%, so if you take 10% of their revenue, you drive them out of business---or force them to increase their prices.

There's no such thing as a free lunch...or free parking. One way or another, the cost of parking downtown is going to be passed on to the public. We are either going to pay for it through higher real estate taxes, higher sales taxes, higher prices, or parking fees. Or some combination of these.

John Q. Public,
I don't have all the answers. I understand we are not allowed to talk about small Mom and Pop business like the one with the balcony.

But let me talk about a public corporation named Starbucks who is on the NYSE and reveals its profits quarterly on the internet and news media. I am sure the Moderator would be comfortable allowing me to speak about a multi-billion dollar international corporation with headquarters in the NW of the country.

I was friends with a former manager of Starbucks on the corner of Main and Jefferson about 3-4 years ago. I once asked him how that Starbucks does. He stated it was one of the most profitable Starbucks in the nation. I asked him to give me an idea of what he was talking about.

He stated we do $2,000,0000 in revenue and clear $1,000,000 in profit after every expense is paid. He emphasized that was the NET PROFIT of the store. That was 3-4 years ago and I have reason to believe the numbers are even better.

I am an investor on the Stock Market and I can tell you this kind of profitability is very rare. Only if a place is subsidized could it turn this kind of profit. In my opinion us taxpayers should be benefiting from such a profitable corporate store. Not subsidizing it.

Parking in downtown high rise garages is very costly. Partially because the land is very expensive, partially because parking decks are expensive to build and partially because they are expensive to maintain because of such items as elevators. Randy estimated the cost of a parking spot is about 75k. Previous estimates discussed in City Chambers by an accountant or someone with some knowledge for numbers were 40k-50k with no council member challenging the individual.

I think these businesses that are making these huge profits on our backs should pay 10% of their revenues towards the parking deck garages, that would come from their profits and NOT an added sales tax to our bills, which would come from us residents. Starbucks will not increase the price of a latte to the the consumer to pay for this expenditure. They charge the same price everywhere in the suburbs. They will take it out of their massive profit and it will not cost us residents a penny in sales tax or residential real estate tax as Blogger Ken would want you to believe wrongfully with his BLATANT PROPOGANDA.

Asking this Starbucks to pay 10% of its revenue means it will make $800,000 Net Profit on $2,000,000 Revenue instead of $1,000,000. It would make a 40% Net Profit instead of a 50% Net Profit. It would still be in the top 99.99% percentile for profitability. What is wrong with that!

That parking deck alone at the library will cost us nearly 100 million over 20 years. A 200,000 contribution by this one store will pay .002% of the cost. Over 20 years this very successful store could pay 4% of the cost of ONLY the library garage. Of all 5 garages combined it may only be paying 1% of the total cost with this 10% revenue contribution coming from Net Profit. But 1% is better than paying nothing. It is also better than the -1% we may have going on right now, meaning we residents are paying this $200,000 a year instead of internationallly renowend Starbucks.

By charging based on proceeds from revenue, stores pay proportionately to what they reap in revenue. Thus a 10 Million Dollar Revenue Store will pay 10 times what a 1 Million Dollar Revenue Store makes to equalize the playing field between the small guy and the big guy. No one wants any downtown business going out of business. We are only charging based on their ability to pay from a per centage of revenue.

Adjustments could be made to charge bars more than retailers since they will be using the parking garages much more heavily and many more of them.

I have no regrets having subsidized the downtown any more than I regret subsiding my kids till age 22. I don't want any money back from the downtown merchants for my generosity of the last 10 years anymore than I want any money back from my own kids.

But as Liebert said, it is time to get them off breast feeding and the bottle. My kids are off the bottle! Why aren't the downtown merchants OFF THE BOTTLE after all we have done for them?

I am not asking they contribute to reducing my residential home tax bill. I am only asking that they not have a negative impact on it by paying for their OWN parking, security, and other amenities. That is all I am asking!

I hope I provided something to think about Mr. John Q. Public. I hope others and yourself can contribute more and maybe out City Officials will listen.

It does seem sad or irnonic that 70 year old Mayor George Pradel is plowing snow at 25 bucks an hour in inclimate weather to pay his real estate home tax bill, and helping subsidize a multi billion dollar Starbucks which is reaping $1,000,000 in Net Profit from one location. Need I remind anyone that they have multiple locations in downtown Naperville.

Mayor Pradel needs to wake up and smell the coffee at Starbucks instead of playing with the snow in all those cul de sacs! There is a time to play in the snow and a time to smell the brewing coffee and act. The time to act has arrived! The Napergatians are absolutely and unequivocally right on this issue!

You have a police dept. that is out of control. NPD has no functioning IAD. On your blog several citizens have said clearly they are AFRAID to attempt to seek answers from NPD, THEY ARE AFRAID OF HARASSMENT,RETRIBUTION, AND WORSE. That has been written on your blog. I spent considerable time and effort on that post,please delete tha part you consider objectable and post the rest.

You have a police dept. that is out of control. NPD has no functioning IAD. On your blog several citizens have said clearly they are AFRAID to attempt to seek answers from NPD, THEY ARE AFRAID OF HARASSMENT,RETRIBUTION, AND WORSE. That has been written on your blog. I spent considerable time and effort on that post,please delete tha part you consider objectable and post the rest.

Marshall, I have side stepped nothing. I have addressed this a couple of times, but I will do so again.

Where a business owner is located is his decision. He has to decide if he has a business good enough that people are willing to walk several blocks to, or if his business will only attract people that want a convenient parking spot. I'll give two examples.

1)Tonight, two of my children wanted to go to a local bookstore in downtown that had an author signing. There were no convenient parking spots, but they were willing to walk to the store from a distance as they had a special reason to go there.

2)A few weeks ago at Easter time, I had my extended family over for Easter diner. I went to a stand alone liquor store to buy what I wanted as I was not willing to make my purchases and carry them to a far off parking spot. Obviously, there are many other businesses that benefit from having their own parking. This is their choice according to their needs. No one forces a business to locate downtown or in a stand alone building.

Naperville realized that they had a vibrant downtown several years ago. They also realized that they had a parking problem and that citizens and visitors alike would flee to the malls if they did nothing about it(Parking tonight was a nightmare and is even worse on weekends. Seems to me they made the right choice). With the first two decks and the one to be built, they are relieving the parking problem. Since both the citizens of Naperville and the businesses have benefited from their decision, they have financed them from both sources. The first two with public and developer's money, the third with public and a soon to be special tax monies.

The people that get the most advantage out of this are visitors to Naperville. The most they have to pay will be if the businesses add the special tax to their bills.

All of you keep saying that all businesses pay the same tax rate no matter where they are. In my opinion, a smart city would asses the downtown properties at a higher value proven out by the higher rents charged. This happens in most cities and is why you see few non-retail businesses located in a downtown storefront. I don't know if this happens in Naperville, but if it doesn't, that is the issue that should be addressed, not an imagined unfair parking advantage.

John Q. Public:

To finance the construction of parking decks, the City should issue revenue bonds. These bonds would then be paid off by collecting parking fees (as parking fees are charged in downtown Chicago). Some spaces could be sold to those wanting permanent parking spaces. Thus, only the users would pay for the parking spaces.

Another way would be to let private concerns finance and build the parking decks and let them decide how to extract the revenue to make them profitable.

By the way, I did address the City Council about the Nichols Library parking deck(s).

A question for any Napergatian (or anyone else who wants to take a stab at it): if you were given complete control of the parking situation downtown, including the power to set the tax rates for businesses and/or sell or lease city-owned property, how would you handle the financing and upkeep of the existing parking structures there?

Ken,

Again, you sidestep the issues.

Compare downtown to non-downtown businesses. That is where your argument falls a apart.

They both pay the same exact taxes.

Yet non-downtown pay a hefty amount for their private parking.

Downtown businesses have public parking subsidized by the residential taxpayer and even their COMPETITORS.

Both pay equally for the schools, so leave the school out of the equation.

In summary the non-downtown businesses are being SCREWED ROYALLY!

====================================================================

PS. Thanks Moderator for your clarifying remarks on my earlier post!
Could Cynthia's and Amy's post be transferred to the other post instead of deleting them?

Mr. Quigley: Your last comment was given the heave-ho due to the drug/alcohol reference. Please exercise restraint in future comments. Thanks in advance.

Ken, I think the Napergatian argument is that the sales and property taxes generated by the downtown landlords and merchants don't even pay for the city services that benefit them directly (parking and extra police coverage), let alone schools, parks, the library, etc., so that they are a net drain on the tax base. I don't know whether or not this argument is correct, but I think it is the point that they think you are ignoring.

Moderator Jim,

Just out of curiosity how did Cynthia and Amy break rules by discussing police overtime on this Napergate Thread. We have been discussing police overtime on this thread for many weeks. You never objected!

Now that you started a new thread for non-Napergatians to discuss police overtime, we are suddenly not allowed to discuss police overtime on our own designated Napergate Thread. Don't you think, Moderator, you may be reaching a little too much or to far? Please reconsider!

How are we HIJACKING other threads when we are only discussing the issue on our own assigned Napergate Thread? Again this thread was titled by either you or Host Ted, Open Forum, so we can discuss any topic we please that pertains to Napergate. Abuse by police of overtime was something discussed in those Napergate ads just as was money abused by the legal department discussed in that same series of ads.

If you think about what you are saying, you just accused us of HIJACKING a thread you assigned and designated for Napergatians!

Please try to clarify and elaborate if possible, Moderator Jim!

Furthermore, Moderator Jim, if you read the nonsense about "metrics" and what ever else this Joe is posting about, who wants to post with that guy. It is best we stay separated from him!

A guy asks a simple question as to why we have 12 cops patrolling 4 establishments in downtown and none in a NW Plaza with 4 liquor licenses, and he is talking about "incident metric" questions.

Most of us try to talk in a common sense way and language where we understand each other. Joe seem to be talking in a language no one understands.

Let them discuss "incident metrics" on their police OT thread till they turn blue in the face and let us try to communicate with the average person on our thread in layman language.

What is wrong with that? Who needs all that hostility discussing any issue with Joe? Do you know what "incident metrics" means Moderator Jim? I am clueless! Joe is from another planet and who needs to debate with people like him!

Thank You, Moderator and I hope you can elaborate on what Cynthia and Amy did wrong since they were only discussing something we have been discussing for months and could not possibly have hijacked a Napergate Thread since it was already designated as such from what I understand! Plus in addition, it was designated Open Forum which means any topic goes except for profanity and libel! That was my understanding. What was yours, Moderator Jim? Thanks again, in advance, for any clarification you can give us.

Ellen, you are too funny. You say no one is attacking me, and then go on to attack me. By the way, Jim said he "took issue" with my opinion that you all are cult like. He never asked me to quit voicing that opinion. As I have stated before, when the debates here are factual and carried on in a adult fashion, my opinion will change. I haven't seen that happen on the part of the cult yet, as your statement of putting a bar of soap in my supposedly filthy mouth shows. Just out of idle curiosity, shouldn't you recommend washing my hands off as I type with them?

For those having a hard time figuring out my numbers, here is how I arrived at them. I took the 20 million price tag and plugged it into a loan calculator, to get the total cost of the loan for 20 years. I divided that over a 20 year period and by 350 spots. I googled public bond offerings and added a .75% to what usually appears to be a 3.25% rate for bond offerings because of the tighter lending market. I even came back later with numbers figured at a higher rate, yet still came up with lower numbers than the ones Randy came up with in his guesstimate. I used the hard numbers that are out in the public. I don't know where Randy got his numbers but it sure is nice you can give him atta boys for more undocumented work.

What the napergatians seem to always want to gloss over is that this is a continuation of the age old policy in Naperville of providing free parking in the downtown area. They are putting up the decks to benefit the citizens that populate the downtown in huge numbers. As I stated before, taxes are not an ala carte proposition. If you expect the business base to kick into the schools and other programs that benefit you, you should not cry foul when they benefit from infrastructure that the city deems important. Otherwise, all parents should be willing to pay a surcharge for the use of the school system, people should be charged when the call the police and fire departments and so on.

It is all basic civics, yet the napergatians seemed to have no understanding of what living in a city entails.

Amy: Your last comment was killed because you introduced the police OT issue to the Napergate thread. As I've told others, keep the messages on topic i.e. on the threads that are devoted to the appropriate discussion.

Napergatian Cynthia: Your last comment was deleted for breaking the rules. You can talk about Napergate all you want on the Napergate thread....that's fine. If you want to discuss police OT do it on the police OT thread and leave Napergate out of it. Otherwise, things get out of control and, as I haver stated numerous times, I'm not letting you guys hijack other threads for your own Napergatian purposes. Thanks....and nice try.

Anonymous @ Downtown and Sarah,

Thanks for reposting A + D's quotes. I thought they were awesome..

Randy did a marvelous job over the weekend too.

When you combine this subsidized parking with the police overtime, it seems like the time is ripe to call for a RECALL of our elected officials.

Reduce police overtime by 5%! Why are not those Napergatians on the council showing more backbone? I hope they are not being brainwashed or controlled after getting elected.

It seems like the only man who was never afraid to speak his mind in this town regardless of the consequences was the Napergate Man.

I wish more people would be brave like he was.

If we can not be brave let us go to the election booths in 2009 in masses and end Establishment rule once and for all!

Anonymous @ Downtown and Sarah,

Thanks for reposting A + D's quotes. I thought they were awesome..

Randy did a marvelous job over the weekend too.

When you combine this subsidized parking with the police overtime, it seems like the time is ripe to call for a RECALL of our elected officials.

Reduce police overtime by 5%! Why are not those Napergatians on the council showing more backbone? I hope they are not being brainwashed or controlled after getting elected.

It seems like the only man who was never afraid to speak his mind in this town regardless of the consequences was the Napergate Man.

I wish more people would be brave like he was.

If we can not be brave let us go to the election booths in 2009 in masses and end Establishment rule once and for all!

Hi Old Buddy Randy,

Very impressive analysis! Your numbers all made sense. I understood the same thing you did from the Napergate Man as to how parking works in strip shopping centers outside the downtown area.

It just seems so odd that a City is willing to subsidize a downtown to this effect. Breast feeding initially is OK. Switching to a bottle a little later is OK.

But for how long do we keep the establishment folks downtown on the bottle. Their businesses and real estate have been given a great shot in the arm plus an extra 2 shots in the buttocks.

It is time for them to pay back what the taxpayers gave them to get them on their feet. That Promenade Builing owned by a mulit-millionaire couple really bothers me. They skated on underground parking because they knew it was expensive to build it under their building. But it is OK for us to build them parking at the cost of $74,844.18 per parking spot in high rise decks. I believe your numbers are much more accurate than those 40k numbers that were previously being thrown around without any documentation.

And really as you stated the true cost is much higher as you did not factor in the cost of land which the city already owns. I bet that library land is worth 3-5 million dollars an acre since it is the next frontier to expand downtown.

But again stop all this insanity! We don't need the library deck.
Over 20 years it will cost us a little under $100,000,000 as you correctly stated.

Imagine what we can do with a 100 million dollars. We can reduce our taxes by 5-10% per year over the next 20 years and save all this money for our kids and grand kids instead of wasting it for a garage that is not needed.

I have never had a hard time finding a parking spot in downtown Naperville when meeting friends. Not once!

PS. In the interest of full disclosure I am a former Naperville resident who lives downtown Chicago but plans on returning one day to raise a family there if taxes can be reduced or brought under control. My parents still live in Naperville and are very upset with the cronyism taking place in our city!

Moderator Jim,

I am really impressed witht the exchanges going on your blog sites.
The Napergatians bring up good question such as who is paying for parking downtown. Since there are huge numbers of them, they seems to have a vast wealth of knowledge they can tap in to provide answers.

It would be nice if the Sun would take their points and run them by City Officials and get official answers for us.

Your police article was good but as one blogger said raised more questons than answers.

I think that Disgruntled with Overtime Character was thinking out of the box and making much much sense. Why not do a follow up article with Chief Dial and have them address every question Disgruntled asked? It would be a great article. The Chief seems receptive to anwering question. Just makes sure he answers the questions directly with no skirting around them since they were really awesome questions???!!!

Honestly, Moderator, he made so much sense. Let us show him some respect. He cared to dissect the Sun entire article piece by piece. Is that not what you want to see someone do for the sake of provoking debate and knowledge?

For example, he said why not let cops have 4 days of traffic duty and the fifth day in court. Thus no overtime! Of course that means we need a few more cops. Who is objecting to a few more cops? We are objecting to overtime that costs way too much since it is being given to the higher ranking members who make much more per hour than the lower ranking members.

I hope you see our points Moderator and join us in stopping the subsidizing of downtown for the very wealthy landlords, in both parking and security matters, who are mostly establishment folks who got their wealth from the inheritnace of there forefathers. How many times can they inherit wealth in one lifetime?

Anonymous and Downtown,
I know Randy is getting a lot of credit for the debate with Ken yesterday. I don't want you to be overlooked! You did a great job in supporting Randy. I loved the below 2 paragraphs that I will post below. Keep up the great work A and D!!!

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The $40K number is an approximation from the public hearings on the parking garage that include the construction costs only, the land for the garage is not included in the cost estimates. I recall watching someone that sounded like an accountant who had done their homework testify to the City Council. The City Finance Director did not contest the numbers. You can take the construction cost for the deck and load it with a 30% increase to account for interest payments if you want to estimate the cost, and then divide by the number of spaces. If you call the Finance Director, I believe he will be more than willing to give you the total cost numbers and break down off the top of his head.

As to Capitalism, the Downtown has been heavily subsidized for years. The high rents are an economic distortion supported by the subsidies. If the businesses that rent had to pay the current rental rates plus the true cost of parking and fairly assessed taxes the business failures in the downtown would increase resulting in a lot more empty spaces. The owners of the buildings would have to drop rents to attract new tenants and equilibrium would be restored. Make no mistake; this is income redistribution on a substantial scale.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

All I see is a downtown being subsidized at my expense. I am fed up with it. I love the downtown but it is unfair for the establishments in downtown to make all this money and profit and not pay for the cost of parking.

I will speak loud when I vote to oust the Establishment Party next year and vote in the Napergate Candidates who ever they may be. I hope Randy and Realtor Ryan run for the city council. They seem very knowledgeable. It is time to teach them the lesson of their lives and wrestle this town away from the corrupt and crony!

And to think we are also subsidizing security downtown and encountering 3.15 million dollars while the downtown businesses skate both on security and parking! What is next?

The Naperville Sun needs to speak louder to end the injustices in town just like those Napergate Ads spoke loud and clear. It is time the Naperville Sun stopped playing softee and held someone accountable for all this government waste.

Kevin,

I enjoyed your latest post. You seem to be the most diplomatic of us Napergatians and you get your point across gently.

I would rather blog here than risk blogging on the Police OT thread and face life time banishment.

Anyway, it is good to see that there are others besides Napergatians that are outraged about police overtime. Maybe it is good we are not there so other citizens can express their views and they can see it is not only Napergatians who are upset with the current administration and its wasteful habits.

I did enjoy reading the controvery on that site and was most impressed with DISGRUNTLED. He hit them right in the temple and they are down for the 8 count unable to muster energy to get up and challlenge him.

___________________________________________________________________

Just also wanted to say that Randy did a great job while most of us took a day off to worship and rest. Randy is very articulate and understands how it all ties together. It is clear the Napergate Man who was his neighbor taught him well!

And I am sure the Napergate Man instilled the discpline in Commander Dan Shanower when he was a very young man to help him rise to almost the top of the Pentagon at the very young age of 40.

It is hard to believe all these people that crossed paths with the Napergate Man were just conincidences. Look at that Activist Donna Rogers lady just to give another example of people around him that shined and excelled!

Sorry my lunch break is over...back to the corporate grind...

Everyone have a good and prosperous day!

Randy,
Great job in your debate on Sunday with Ken. None of his numbers made sense. You numbers were crystal clear.

For example you compute the interest cost of each parking spot to be the following:

$20,000,000 cost to build X .07% interest on money needed to build = $1,400,000/350 parking spots = $4,000 dollars.

That is simple math that is easy to understand and comprehend for anyone but Ken. I also don't think if banks are giving investors or depositers 5.4% on their money, they will loan the City of Naperville that same money for 1.4% less than they are paying for it for 20 years unless they want to have another subprime crisis of sorts! Where Ken comes up with his numbers is beyond me? They defy all logic and reason!

You even favored the City by not charging them for the potential value of the land that could be sold to a private garage owner for serveral million dollars easily as their is no undevelopled land left in the downtown area.

Why Ken has such a hard time understanding SIMPLE MATH is beyond me?
He just throws numbers without explaining them and expects us to believe him.

Ken is simply Joe in disguise! It has become apparent. He tried to rehabilitate himself but instead exposed himself. I guess we are down to 4 city supporters left on this blog site supporting the CITY of NAPERVILE!

Ken,
Here you go again! No one called you any names of late. Randy respected you while ripping you apart. The moderator asked you politely not to call the Naperatians, cult members, and not only do you not listen, but you add "rabid."

The Moderator is showing bias towards the establishment by not showing any teeth to his recommendations against establishment folks. When Timothy, a first time blogger, apparently slipped up, he was BANISHED for life.

I think you should track Ken's IP number as you tracked Timothy's and BANISH HIM FOR LIFE!

Show some fairness, Mr. Moderator! At least put a bar of soap in his filty mouth and wash it out! Ken, is a disgusting example of humanity. The name stopping called. He started it all over by HIMSELF! BANISH HIM, PLEASE!

Kevin,

I agree with you that was a silly comment. Obviously, the Moderator has fallen under the influence of the Gang of Five as far as how this Blog Site is controlled or concerned may be a better word.

The Napergate Party is a party. It had elected about 11 of 16 candidates in 4 elections. In one election the entire slate of 4 was elected.

Moderator Jim is in essense banning the mention of a political party on his threads. It is OK for the Fraternal Order of Police Head to be mentioned but not the Napergate Man or the Napergate Party. We have 2 heads of organizations or parties and 2 organizations or parties. What is the difference!
So what is the difference.

The Gang of Five brainwashed the Moderator that the Napergatians were hijacking his blog site. All they did is blog on one of the 10 Threads on the Main Page at a time because they did not have one of their own the Main Page.

Now they are blogging on an Archived Napergate Thread and we are still hijacking Jim's Blog Site. There are probably 500 archived threads and we are only bloggin on ONE and we are constantly accused of hijacking Jim's Blog Site. How ludicrous can that be, Moderator Jim and Kevin?

I agree, Kevin! This is really silly!

I ask the Moderator to see the silliness and immaturity of his decision and please reverse his decision unless he wants the Gang of Five to blog with each other. That would not make the most succesful thread in Chicagoland! The Death Thread was an example of what happens when you kick the Napergatians off. It died a SUDDEN DEATH! Obvious to all! Jim listened to the Gang FLOCK and he destroyed his most successful thread at the time.

The threat here is not of hijacking Jim's Blog site. The Real Threat is the Napergatians may hijack the next election and this threatens both the Naperville Sun and the Establishmnet Party!

Actually, Anonymouse II, if you had any reading comprehension at all, you would see that I have addressed Randy's points several times. I fail to notice where he has shredded my points or where my points are nonsensical. Of course I am not a biased, close minded, rabid cult member cult member who tries to convert people by name calling and belittlement, so I view it differently than you.

Kevin, if the napergate people post under a name like you and I do, they will be recognized. Since many hide under Anonymous, it is hard to tell. Until they are brave enough to stick with one name, we will never know.

By Naperville Sun editors on April 20, 2008 1:11 PM "Moderator Jim to RJ: You hit it square on the head. Seems like the Napergatians decided to sleep in today. Just a reminder: Weigh in on the NPD overtime thread but keep comments on topic i.e. no references to Napergate or to the Napergate man. All such comments will be deleted in accordance with established blog policy. Thanks in advance for your cooperation".

How do you know that no Napergatians were on that thread today before you posted this entry? If the Napergatians can't even mention the word “Napergate” how would you know if someone has or has not posted an entry? The people on that thread who are against the excessive police overtime and complained about it could very well be people who either are Napergatians or agree with them on this issue, but they aren't allowed to mention that are they? That was kind of a silly comment to make above when you are the banning people from what they can and cannot say or who they can or cannot say they are affiliated with. You can't just go by how people sign their name...there are multiple sign in names that are the same on these threads. At this point the word Napergate means more than one person…it is more like a name of a political party such as Democrats or Republicans…just on a much smaller scale. I just though it was kind of ironic that you would be calling out the Napergatians for not putting entries on the police overtime thread when you were the one that told people they could not mention the word Napergate in a non-Napergate thread. How else would you know who they are?

Converting non-Napergatians to join the Napergate Pary and leaving the Establishment Party, is nothing different than Democrats converting Republicans or vice versa. It has nothing to do with fanatical religion or sinners. No Napergatians has ever mentioned religion. Thus one can see who starts all the fabrications and innuendos on these blogs

Anyone who followed these blogs the last 6 months can see the massive success the Napergatians are having. The support they received obviously bothered the Naperville Sun who is doing a partial muzzling on the Napergatians.

While the Napergatians "can't" seem to find their way around this blog site, they added hundreds to their numbers bloggin.

While City Supporters "can" find their way very well around this site, they can't convert anyone to their viewpoints. That should tell you something! The 5 City Supporters live on this Blog Site. I certainly hope they can find themselves a little better in their own home. The Napergatians are occasional visiters who seem to have lives and take Sunday off once in a while.

It does seem odd to me that a group that can't find their way around a blog site, can do so well with their fellow bloggers.

I wonder what kind of success they would have if they learned to navigate the site a little better......hummmmm!

You can see how well Randy articulates and the facts he provides. Of course, he is going to win any debate against Ken who ignores 90% of the issues Randy mentions. Ken seems to circle around the issues like a politician and can not directly address Randy's points. Randy takes Ken's points and shreds them...none of them make sense or can stand any test.

Randy wrote;

"The Moderator should have figured out by now that the Napergatians want to convert non-Napergatians to their view point."

_______________________________________

This reminds me of a fanatical religion trying to convert all the sinners. It also explains why the Napergatians are upset that they can't mention their Hero on the other forums. It would be like telling a born again he couldn't mention God, without the name, they have nothing.

I do find it funny that the Napergatians, as smart as they claim to be, collectively and individually can't seem to find their way around this site without help.

Hey Moderator Jim, is there anyway to set the menus up in braille so our friends can find out where the good topics are?

By Randy;
"7. I noticed the McDonalds at 75th and Naper Blvd had huge potholes this year. They did not seal coat."

__________________________________________________________________

I noticed just this week that the McD's at 75th and Naper was being demolished. Could be the reason they let the lot go, knowing they were about to start a major rehab.

The only point you made, Randy, is that the decks are much easier to maintain. Naperville is not taking a lot of land by eminent domain to build asphalt lots that need much more maintenance and prevent revenue producing buildings from being built. By the way, I have been shopping at different strip malls and grocery stores for over 20 years and never seen a full parking replacement like your friend has. If he has had to replace his lot three times, he is the exception, not the rule.

The fact that the land is already owned by the city makes your claims even more ridiculous. You would have to find out the original purchase price to factor it into your figures, not what you think it could be sold for now. When I did my figures, I also did a 20 year loan at 22 million at 6%, and there was only a $1000 difference, still not even close to the numbers you are claiming.

The big point you are either purposely missing or unable to understand is that the decks are part of a public parking plan to benefit the public for well over 30 years. The only thing to compare it to would be all the roads in downtown. Should the business owners pay for all those too, as they are used by their customers?

If your friend wanted to put a liquor store downtown, he could. The fact that he decided to do it elsewhere is a business decision that he made years ago. It seems that he is doing fine, and that the only ones complaining about the unfairness of it all are people that have no business or business plans of their own.

Ken,

1. The land was not included in the 20,000,000 cost.

2. It is already owned by the city so they did not include it.

3. I believe I substantially underestimated the value of those 2 acres. Maybe Realtor Ryan can help us out. I know one acre residential lots off Hobson on Indiana St. were selling for one million each. Commercial is much higher especially commercial in downtown. It could be 3 or 4 million an acre, so I underestimated.

4. I do not know about your 4%. I would never loan my money for 4% to anyone for 20 years. Would you Ken! I would for one year now because interest rates sunk pretty badly this year. Last year I was receiving 5.38% from the First National Bank of Naperville and it was FDIC insured. If the city is going to a bank for the funds, I am sure the banks would charge at least 7%. If they want to float their own offering, I am sure it will be less, but their will be costs to issuing these bonds that would make them much higher than 4% but possibly lower than 7%. Merill Lynch and Goldman Sachs do not do these things for free. They charge a very high commission to float this stuff to the public. Their executives make millions of dollars from these floatations and the taxpayer pays for that cost indirectly.

5. More than snowplowing is done to parking lots. At night time cleaning trucks come and clean them from 3 to 7 times a week depending on the shopping center owner.

6. Sealcoating and striping are done or recommended every 2 years.
If you don't you will have huge potholes.

7. I noticed the McDonalds at 75th and Naper Blvd had huge potholes this year. They did not seal coat. The Napergate Man did and he had no potholes. Sealcoating is important and can not be done every 5 years for strip centers if you want to prevent the moisture from penetrating your lot. For houses like I own, it can be done every 5 years since traffic is very light compared to a strip center that has huge trucks delivering besides heavy car and SUV traffic.

8. I never said the $75,997.98 was the cost for each year. I said that was the cost for the first year only, if the city chose not to finance or amortize. Some people and cities do have cash to buy, build or develop.

9. I made it clear my costs per year based on a 20 year amortization was only

"Total per spot per year..........$ 9,699.30"

Let us not distort, Ken! If I am wrong about my 7%, it will be lower. Since you did not include the cost of land that the city already owns your numbers are substantially deflated. Anyone knows the cost of land is huge downtown. Give Realtor Doug Krause a call. I bet he knows very well what the cost of an acre is assuming one is available Since none may be available, scarcity makes the library lot ever higher than I estimated.

10. Maintenance is much higher for a parking deck. You need serious insurance for a building structure in the event of a catastrophe such as an earthquake, tornado or structural failure as occurred at City Hall's parking lot. A flat parking lot needs no insurance since the landlord could handle minor damage resulting from the above.

11. Most parking lots have extensive landscaping and grass. Besides a snowplowed, every shopping center has a landscaper and parking lot cleaner. You obviously never owned a shopping center, Ken, not to know these basics.

12. Parking lots need to be replaced every 10 years unless you want to patch holes day and night. I believe the Bailey Rd plaza is on its 3rd parking lot. The cost of replacing a one acre parking lot is humongous. One of the estimates the Napergate Man got 15 years ago was $80,000. He did find someone cheaper. Any left over money from the $2.00 CAM(if anything is left) is used for the new parking lots every 10 years. Landlords don't dare pass these replacement expenditures down to the tenants unless they want to run them out of business.

13. Realtor Ryan also explained some of this CAM is used to replace roofs. Try to get an estimate for a 25,000 flat roof. How about 150,000 thousand dollars to replace a flat roof a few years ago?

14. Landlords have to detail there expenses to tenants with documentation before they can bill them for these charges.

Your statement of

"I would tend to think that the parking lot maintenance fee is a nice little profit center for a strip mall owner."

border on libelous. CAM is an expense that has to be documented and proven before reimbursement takes place. Not everyone operates like City Hall and has a million dollar expense for the Napergate Trials and says we don't have any records. In the private world this is not tolerated by companies, landlords, tenants, or anyone. Only City Hall can get away with not documenting a million dollars in legal fees and give no explanation.

15. Did you ever notice the number of light bulbs in these garages that need to be replaced when they burn out. They also have landscaping. And you are trying to tell me having elevators is not a significant increase in expense for a parking garage compared to a flat parking lot. When was the last time you checked on the cost of 2 elevators, Ken?

I could go on and on. I think I made my points.

The bottom line whether it is 5k per parking spot per year or 10k per parking spot per year, we both agree that the taxpayers are funding these parking spots. Not the landlords or retailers. So far they only pay the same taxes as non-downtown landlords and retailers who pay for their own parking. This is unfairness!

It is subsidized capitalism as stated so succinctly by "A @ D."

I guess the Napergatians are taking a well deserved day off. If they were not, I would not be hogging this blog site. My apologies if I seem to be hogging the bloggin today but I am simply trying to answer questions to the best of my ability.

RJ and Moderator,

I did not know there was a new thread on the NPD. I just have an open window and post on the Napergate Thread without checking the Main Page. I suspect that has become the pattern of Napergatians since they are not allowed to post on non-Napergate Threads without mentioning how they feel as a group or party or movement.

If you noticed my posts included the Napergate Man because I used his shopping center as an example and his vast knowledge given to me over 10 years to help me out. I did not do anything inappropriate by mentioning his name. If we were on a parking deck thread site, I would not be able to explain myself as well as I did as I would have been inhibited and restricted!

Many Napergatians learned a lot from the Napergate Man from his 100 full page Napergate ads. He covered the NPD extensively. Basically, they are not allowed to go to the Police Overtime Thread and even quote him or discuss his vast knowledge of the NPD. In my opinion this is CENSORSHIP to some degree! Not full CENSORSHIP but partial CENSORSHIP!

Further it forces people to take credit where credit my be due to others such as the Napergate Man. It can create accusations of plagiarism.

I suspect if Moderator Jim does not open the Police Overtime issue to Napergatians he will not get many of them interested in blogging with their hands tied behind their backs since much of what they would say would be from the teachings and vast knowledge of the Napergate Man.

One can not even go there and say the arrest of the Napergate Man was a possible abuse of OVERTIME and COSTLY. It did occur after the downtown was closed and the police officers were to check out from either working for regular or overtime pay depending on whether they were from the school police or regular police.

Many of us are comfortable blogging here on an archived thread and having total freedom to discuss any subject and discuss it in any way we know how to discuss it or feel like discussing it. We know we have less views, but we dealt with it and simply accepted it.

I suspect most Napergatians do not know about the police overtime thread as I did not.

I also suspect most Napergatians do go to church Sunday morning as most Napervillians go to church. I skipped church because I have a very bad cold and do not want to spread my germs.

Anyway, I urge Moderator Jim to reconsider his stance. The police overtime thread was a Napergate issue and recommended by a Napergatian on this thread. It should have been put up in a manner to allow Napergatians total freedom to say what they please and feel.

I feel the result will be much less bloggin. It will be much less posting and views for the Naperville Sun which is a measure of the success of the Blog Site.

Two parties are being hurt here. The Napergatians and the Naperville Sun. While it appears the City Supporters are getting their way, if not enough non-Napergate opposition surfaces, the thread could die. I did notice that the Murder Thread died an instant death once the Napergate word was banned even though it remained on the Main Page for a few more days. Going from 30-40 post down to 2-4 posts when a thread is on the Main Page and as issue is still hot is not normal. It was a result of action taken by the Moderator. The Moderator has this right. But he also hurt his blog site by 30 to 40 posters per day. He also may have angered some to go to other blog sites. He is also halting exponential growth to his blog site much of which is generated directly and indirectly by Napergatians.

The City Supporters did not want to debate themselves. While the Moderator believes he is doing the right thing, I believe he is hurting his blog site, because debate and controversy is what fuels his blog site.

The Moderator should have figured out by now that the Napergatians want to convert non-Napergatians to their view point. Blogger David spelled it out one day. That is why this severe action was taken by the Moderator.

Napergatians perceive wrongfully or rightfully that Moderator Jim is trying to crush their Napergate Party. They are not going to participate in their dismantling.

While I do not speak for Napergatians, I do not believe they have much interest in bloggin if they can not promote their party and movement. They are not here bloggin for fun or rises. That should be obvious after 6 months of bloggin.

They have an agenda which has now become known since David slipped up. The agenda is to promote the Napergate Party while discussing these controversial issues. If they can't, they see no reason to blog. They want true change. The city bloggers want true rises!

We can both get what we want if we area allowed to blog together. They get humongous rises when attacked by 300-500 Napergatians. We win new sympathizers and supporters while they are getting their rises.

So why not allow both of us to get what we want, Moderator Jim!

I think we all know what is going on. I am sure you figured out late, but nonetheless, figured out what we were up to. There is very strong e-mail correspondence amongst Napergatians even though none of us have the Napergate Man's full list of several thousands.

He has his reasons for maintaining a low profile for the time being. No one knows what they are but in due time, I believe we will find out why and they would have been for good reason!

Randy, you sure have a lot of extras in your figures. The 20 million build figure would be a completed project, including the land. Amortize that over 20 years for the 350 spots at a bond rate of 4%, which is high, and you come up with $29087055.23 total cost for 20 years. Divide that by 20 years and then by 350 spots and you come up with $4155.29 per spot per year, not the $75997.98 per year, excluding maintenance.

Your maintenance figures are also excessive. How can an enclosed concrete lot be 5-10 times more expensive to maintain than an exposed asphalt lot? You don't tar or repave a parking structure. Re-stripping the spots will be far less frequent as the stripes don't get sun exposure and cut across traffic to wear them down. Basic costs will be electricity to power low level lighting and elevators in addition to elevator maintenance.

Comparing a public facility to a private business is another fallacy. While renters in a strip mall may be charged a parking lot maintenance fee, the only maintenance done on a yearly base is snow plowing. Most strip malls don't tar or re-stripe every year. Seems most do it every 5 years at best. I would tend to think that the parking lot maintenance fee is a nice little profit center for a strip mall owner.

After all is said and done, any of these comparisons are moot. The city decided that they needed more public parking to keep their downtown booming. The decks will last much longer than the bonds that build them, so trying to put a per parking spot price tag on them seems kind of nebulous.

If the napergatians do not think it is worth while investing in their city whether it is downtown police protection or added public parking ease, they should probably move to a blighted town that does neither.

====================================================================

1. Amortization per spot..........$3,426.55

2. Interest Expense per spot......$4,000.00 (corrected)

3. Maintenance per spot...........$2,272.75

====================================================================

Total per spot per year..........$ 9,699.30

Albeit since I don't have the knowledge of the Napergate Man or Realtor Ryan, I had to use some estimates. But I used conservative estimates so I believe the true cost per year is actually substantially higher.

If we were not going to amotize the initial building cost of the library parking deck, the cost per spot the first year would be.

1. Unamortized cost per spot.... $68,571.43

2. Interest Expense per spot......$4,000.00 (corrected)

3. Maintenance per spot...........$2,272.75

====================================================================

Total per spot per year..........$74,844.18

====================================================================

In line 2, I had inadvertently included the amortization which is already part of line 1. It can not be counted twice. This caused a 4.37% error to the high side of unamortized cost in the fist year.

I always told you I was no Napergate Man and neither am I an accountant or realtor, but I am trying my best to contribute.

Sorry about the error, but the bottom line is the downtown is hugely subsidized in a riduculous manner even with my corrected figures.

Thanks Again!

Anonymous and Downtown,
I posted my numbers in the previous post before seeing your requests. I am not a realtor. Ryan is the realtor. My knowledge and education is directly and mostly from the Napergate Man. We both were neighbors in Olive Trees for 10 years across the street from his shopping center and discussed business often.

Your numbers are very reasonable but I believe you underestimated and not overestimated the parking costs as the City Supporters would like us to believe.

Everyone should read the 4th paragraph or second to the last in your post "By Anonymous and Downtown on April 20, 2008 10:52 AM" over and over again until they GET IT! You have been very helpful, A @ D. The Napergate Man would have loved to have someone like you in his Napergate Organization when he was fighting City Hall as you seem NO NONSENSE!

PS. I will shortly post a correction to my numbers. I detected an error after posting.

Attention all Napergatians...................

There is a new Blog on the main page regarding police services and overtime. I am surprised that none of you are there posting as this is a topic near and dear to you conspiracy theorists. You finally get an issue that is important on the front page and no one shows up. I am sure you can discuss the issue openly there, just leave the "N" word out of it.

Randy,

My bad, I should have said Realtor Ryan.

Moderator Jim,

It looks like Randy may have crushed the ball on his hit, does the Sun have and accountant that can verify his math. If yes, it looks like red meat for a fresh article on the Library Deck to me.

Ken,
I am not a realtor like Ryan or a commercial shopping center owner like the Napergate Man, who both would know much more than I do. I once contemplated buying a shopping center, so I tried to get an education from the Napergate Man and his tenants.

I never bought a plaza but bought a few condos and a few homes for my real estate investments. Therefore, my knowledge is limited. The Napergate Man must have had foresight and beat the real estate boom. He bought and developed in 1980. When I went to buy in the early 90s, everything was unafforable for me.

The $40,000 number being thrown around that I traced to "Anonymous and Downtown" is for the one time building of the garage. No one ever said it was an annual expense except yourself, Ken! This is what the old Joe kind of did when he use to twist words of bloggers. You are now doing the same and the Napergatians will never let you see the end of this if you twist words. You are lucky we are not on the Main Page where bloggin is several times more active.

Also, your statement about this $40,000 number to only build, is "disingenuous at best, and an outright fabrication at worst" is off mark. I do not know "A@D," but let me try to prove his number is not a fabrication using common knowledge and common sense.

It is well known that the library deck will cost $19.9 million to build. Let us round it up to $20,000,000 for simplicity purposes. It is well known the libray deck will have roughly 350 plus parking spots. Let us round it to 400 even though this will subtantially reduce the cost of each parking spot.

If you divide $20,000,000/400 parking spots, you will get a cost of not only $40k to build each spot but $50k to build each spot. That library deck is a full block and is roughly 2 acres. Land in downtown Naperville is extremely expensive. I will say it is 2 million per acre in that area to be conservative but I believe it could easily be twice that.

At $4,000,000/400 spots, we can add another 10k per spot just for the cost of the land. Now we are talking about 60k per spot and really much higher since I believe the number of spots is significantly below 400. If it was only 350 which from memory, I believe is closer to the actual number of spots, we are talking about $68,571 dollars per spot.

It seems A@D was either guessing on the low side or had misinformation on the low side. Now, Ken, this is just the cost to build. A@D was defintely not EXAGGERATING!

If it is financed the cost of interest is in addition to this $68,571 dollars. If they finance at 7%, you can add interest expense of $4000 dollars per parking spot PER YEAR. Now we are talking per year. And to the per year expenses you have to add lighting, maintenance, striping, elevator repairs, insurance and the list goes on as mentioned by I believe retailer Ryan or Roger. I suspect if strip center charges are $2.00 bucks a sq. ft. to maintian level lots, parking garage charges to maintain lots are much higher due to such things as excessive lighting needed, maintenance, insurance and elevators.

These calculations can get real messy! If you want to amortize the cost over 20 years, you may be talking roughly about 68,571/20yr or $3,426.55 plus interest expense of $4,000 for $7,426.55 per one parking spot per ONE YEAR!

I know the Napergate Man's parking lot which is about one acre has about 110 parking spots. It cost roughly $2.00 per square foot to maintain that parking lot. We are now talking commercial retail space per square feet and not parking lot per square feet as that is how it is charged out. I hope this is not getting too complicated. But since his plaza has roughly 25,000 sq. ft. of retail space, it cost $50,000/110 or 455.55 per year to maintain a parking spot in non-downtown, non-parking deck, strip center parking lots. To maintain a parking spot in a City Parking garage has been estimated to be 5-10 times as high as a strip parking lot spot. Let us be conservtive and go with 5 times as high. This will give us $455.55 X 5 = $2272.75 cents per parking spot.

If we add all this up, here is what we get for the cost to finance and maintain each parking spot per year.

====================================================================

1. Amortization per spot..........$3,426.55

2. Interest Expense per spot......$7,426.55

3. Maintenance per spot...........$2,272.75

====================================================================

Total per spot per year..........$13,125.85

Albeit since I don't have the knowledge of the Napergate Man or Realtor Ryan, I had to use some estimates. But I used conservative estimates so I believe the true cost per year is actually substantially higher.

If we were not going to amotize the initial building cost of the library parking deck, the cost per spot the first year would be.

1. Unamortized cost per spot.... $68,571.43

2. Interest Expense per spot......$7,426.55

3. Maintenance per spot...........$2,272.75

====================================================================

Total per spot per year..........$78,270.73

====================================================================

I believe A @ D was talking about cost to build and the first year. If he was, I believe he may have been underexaggerating by nearly 100%.

Most people don't want to be bored with these details. But I thought I would provide them to try to put a perspective on these numbers and possibly end the debate.

As, I believe, Mr. John Q. Public said we certainly don't need this library parking garage. Over 20 years, it will cost us taxpayers not $20,000,000 but $91,880,950 dollars or more than 4.5 times the number City Officials are throwing around to try to bait us into accepting this horrendous, unneeded and unnecessary parking.

Just for the record since I know some one is going to ask here are the calculations for the TOTAL COST:

____________________________________________________________________

$13,125.85(cost of parking spot per year) X 350 parking spots X 20 years = $91,880,950.00

If someone can verify we have 381 parking spots, we have a true cost of $100,000,000 for 20 years. It would be wise for bloggers to refer to the true cost of this garage over 20 years as $100,000,000 instead of the $20,000,000 that the city is throwing around that does not include FINANCING, insurance, COST OF LAND, lighting, maintaining elevators, striping, snowplowing top floor, reparing potholes or structural damage as once happened in the City Hall parking deck, and the list goes on.

I hope I have been helpful, Ken.

Again I believe if you stop calling the Napergatians cultists and stick with the hard core facts, they will not call you names. Also, try not to twist what anyone says, because that upsets bloggers and brings name calling as happened to the old Joe. Notice, how they eased up on Joe in late days!

With possibly a few thousand people reading this site(possibly much more but I will leave that up to the Moderator to disclose since he knows exact numbers), I don't think anyone will be able to get away with a single lie or distortion without being called out. So why try!

Again thanks to the Moderator and Host for providing this forum for debate and exchange. I would also like to ask the one or two dozen Napergatians who are on the attack, to try to be more civil as they are hurting our Napergate Cause. I would rather you ignore those who attack you, than attack them. If you ignore them, they will eventually go away.

As many said before me, I don't think the Napergate Man would be happy with those who spend their days attacking others instead of doing research and providing facts. Doing research and providing facts will get us voters somewhere in the next election. Attacking others, will cost us dearly in the next election and get us nowhere. Let us try our best to refrain from attacks. WE have the facts on our side so why attack. Facts speak louder and clearer than any attacks. The results we are seeking will come as long as we are PATIENT!

PS. I did not do a spelling check so please excuse any spelling errors. I was afraid my numbers would get disoriented and off column if I copy and pasted for the spelling check. Thanks again to all!

Realtor Randy,

Can you post the per square foot rental rates for the various areas of Naperville for office and retail? Please include the parking fees and taxes per square foot?

Just the area and rates would be great, I believe they will speak for themselves and further a fact based discussion.

I'm hoping that moderator Jim will pick up the ball and publish his own numbers if indeed there are substantial variances that defy common sense.

Ken,

A few comments:

Thanks for playing the devils advocate on this blog; without you, the discussion would be boring.

The metaphor of going for the jugular was completely out of line and I was surprised to see that the moderator let it pass. It was clearly a threat made to sound like a metaphor. (I hope I am using the right terminology here, Writing was always a struggle for me)

The $40K number is an approximation from the public hearings on the parking garage that include the construction costs only, the land for the garage is not included in the cost estimates. I recall watching someone that sounded like an accountant who had done their homework testify to the City Council. The City Finance Director did not contest the numbers. You can take the construction cost for the deck and load it with a 30% increase to account for interest payments if you want to estimate the cost, and then divide by the number of spaces. If you call the Finance Director, I believe he will be more than willing to give you the total cost numbers and break down off the top of his head.

As to Capitalism, the Downtown has been heavily subsidized for years. The high rents are an economic distortion supported by the subsidies. If the businesses that rent had to pay the current rental rates plus the true cost of parking and fairly assessed taxes the business failures in the downtown would increase resulting in a lot more empty spaces. The owners of the buildings would have to drop rents to attract new tenants and equilibrium would be restored. Make no mistake; this is income redistribution on a substantial scale.

Go look at the giant phallic that the City Council planted in the center of the city and ask yourself “what does it mean?”

Randy, I have explained my position on the 'unfairness' of the parking situation a couple of times. I have also explained the differences between a downtown business district and outlying businesses.

The reason I question the $40,000 price tag per parking space that you all take as gospel truth is the fact that it is not an every year expense. Just as a private mall owner amortizes his building expenses over a set amount of years, the parking decks construction expense should be amortized over a set amount of years. That is why the $40,000 amount quoted as free to the downtown property owners is disingenuous at best, and an outright fabrication at worst.

Many of you like to point to the 'greed' of downtown property areas concerning rents. You bring up a business owner that left because his rent went up 100%. He was there for 20 years. How long was his last lease for? Many property owners demand a multi-year lease. If his last lease was for multiple years, and the rental value of that property went up 100% over the term of the lease, the raise in rent was justifiable. Property owners are not charities, they are businessmen. Renting a property below market values would be bad business as they will have their property assessed on perceived value, not based on a lease that does not bring them the true rental value. Expecting a lease to stay the same over a long period of time would be the same as expecting to pay the 10 year past price on a house.

Anonymous and Downtown,

So far I have agreed with all your posts 100% except with your post to Chris about the Naperville Police Dept.

That one I disagree with 100%. Since the Napergatian View on the issue you discussed has been written about dozens of times, I will not respond and be repetitive other than to say I disagree.

You need to do a little bit more research or be patient and the truth will finally come out. I have no doubt about the truth eventually coming out about the hidden practices of the Naperville Police Dept.

Moderator Jim,

I will try to go back and rewrite my letters and try to make my points effectively in a different manner per your suggestion. It may take me some time.

Thanks for responding and I do understand your concerns.

I do want you to know I would never make anything up or post anything based on someone's remarks I met in the street as Joe once did, without evaluating the authenticity of those remarks.

I have to know my source is credible from experience before I post anything that he or she told me.

Since IPs are traceable, I know I can be responsible for anything I say that is not true or libelous. I hope everyone on here is always truthful and never libels. That is the only way we can move the debate forward and bring the desired and fair solutions that we all want!

Ken,
I traced the $40,000 per parking spot to "Anonymous and Downtown." He is not a Napergatian but seems to be a very honest and knowledgeable blogger.

He clearly indicated that it was $40,000 to build each parking spot...not to maintain it each year. That seems like a very reasonable figure since we are talking about parking spots in high rise garages and not in strip centers on paved ground.

Many people have made the same point to you by asking you to compare downtown retailers to non-downtown retailers They both have been paying the same exact taxes for real estate and sales, yet one pays for their own parking while the taxpayers pay for the parking of the downtown businesses. This is the unfairness that you seem to be sidestepping and never addressing. Please address, Ken, without name calling as I am not calling you any names!

Most of those buildings downtown are owned by establishment folks.
Recently, the Sun had an article about a business owner who was leaving after 20 years. He did not go out of business. His lease expired and the landlord wanted to give him a 100% increase in rent.
Basically, that translates to kicking him out so he could get that 100% increase from a National Tenant. In essence, no one is going out of business. Landlords are being greedy, creating vacancies, and trying to double the rent.

They are able to double the rent because we are subsidizing downtown for them with these beautiful high rise parking decks and many other amenities.

Since I knew the Napergate Man and he owned a plaza, just south of downtown Naperville, I know that outside of the downtown, landlord increase rents once every 1 to 5 years. The average increase is 2% for one year or 10% for 5 years. No one outside of downtown can double rents. And if any landlorod outside of the downtown tried something like this he would be out of business along with his tenants.

So you see, Ken, something seems to be very unusual about downtown Naperville. The landlords can charge huge rents, enabling them to make huge profits, because we are giving them subsidies that they should be paying for. Mom and Pops are having their leases not renewed which is different than going out of businsses. It is called being thrown out by greedy landlords to get their 100% increases as documented by the Naperville Sun in a recent article about a successful small business that had to shut down after 20 years because of this 100% increase in rent!

Thanks Ken! I hope I have been helpful in allowing you to understand what Napergatians are trying to communicate to you and others!

Ps. Maybe in simpler terms it can be described as the greedy downtown establishment landlords are playing musical chairs with their tenants at our taxpayer expense. If they want to enrich themselves playing musical chairs, it should be at their expense and not TAXPAYER EXPENSE!

Roger, as a retail business owner, you must be aware that many businesses have VERY small profit margins. Not every restaurant downtown is as successful as the one that we're not supposed to mention by name anymore that has the very popular patio. I've noticed a few restaurants in the downtown area go out of business in the short time I've been here.

The costs of these parking garages downtown is going to be borne by the public, one way or another, whether through higher taxes, higher prices, or parking fees. The real issue here is not how to pay for it, but whether or not there is a need for more parking downtown. Everyone posting on this board so far---even Joe and Ken---is in agreement that the need is not there. If the Napergatians are serious about putting a stop to the library parking deck, they'd be well-advised not to alienate potential allies in this fight by calling them idiots because of a disagreement about peripheral issues.

Scott –

Please provide the Sun article where the sales in downtown are down 50%. I find this figure to be unbelievable (or misinterpreted) and also completely against what Tony Andrews of Smoke Free Naperville said would happen once we caved in to the smoking ban. Surely he didn’t lie about the number of people who would flock to the now smoke-free bars and restaurants did he?

**********

Roger –

Thanks for saying I just don’t “get it’. Such arrogant self-righteousness. So I guess you’re always right? Thought so.

T.B.

Lynn, if you bothered to read the whole thread, you would see that the cult members attacked me long before I ever identified their behavior as cult like. If you read murder on 87th street thread and the Obama thread you would see that the cult members continued their attacks on me there. If you just went back 26 or so posts ago, you would see that I referred to them as the napergate crowd and did not bring up the cult reference until the attacks and threats started again. When all of the cult members can debate like sane adults instead of rabid cult members, or if the moderators tell me to stop it, I will continue to properly call the rabid cult members that name call and threaten death towards me exactly what they are.

I am really interested to see where this $40,000 per parking space comes from. It sounds like another made up fact from the cult. Any figures to prove that each space costs $40,000 per year?

I am also interested why the cult thinks that taxes should be paid ala carte? Should people who have no kids in the school system not have to pay the school portion of the property tax? Should people who never use police or fire service not have to pay those portions of the property tax? Your arguments against the present tax system are those of people jealous of business people that took a risk and are reaping the awards of that risk. If it is so easy to make money in the downtown business district, why aren't all of you doing it?

Moderator Jim,

I was catching up on my reading and noticed 2 of my posted letters were deleted yesterday or the day before after being posted.

I understand the owner of the specific restaurant my have complained and you had to delete them even though we were quoting his son verbatim from a public meeting according to many reliable and diverse sources.

If I removed the name of the restaurant from my 2 posts, would you consider reposting them?

Thanks!

PS. I think the issue should have been resolved between the Dad and the Son and not involved yourself and your bloggers who were quoting honestly from a public forum held in City Chambers.

By Ken on April 19, 2008 10:33 AM
It seems that all the cult members want all businesses to pay for the infrastructure downtown that supports their businesses. You seem to think it is only fair that they pay for all the costs of a downtown business district. I would agree with this if the residents are then willing to assume all costs associated with housing. Let the businesses just pay for their needs and release them from paying towards schools, police and fire protection out of the business district, and subdivision road maintenance, including repaving, new curbs, sidewalks, etc.

####################################################################

Mr. Ken,

I think where your logic fails in comparison to Ryans, is the difference between downtown retailers and non-downtown retailers.

The non-downtown retailers pay for their parking and than contribute to this huge pot that we use to take care of the infrastructure of this town.

The downtown retailers do NOT pay for their parking and than contribute to this huge pot that we use to take care of the infrastructure of this town.

The parking expense which is 40k per parking spot in downtown is so horrendous that the net effect of contributions of downtown retailers is most probably NEGATIVE! They are most probably contributing nothing to us residents when we net it against what we are providing for them in free parking.

The bottom line is these downtown business must pay for their own parking from their gross profits. Not from our real estate tax bills, not by charging us soon to be 9.75% sales tax which will include this 1.5% garage tax.

By being greedy, they are hurting themselves. Soon even our residents would rather go dine in Lisle, Warrenville or Aurora and pay 7.25% sales tax instead of 9.75% sales tax. This is an extra 2.50 dollars per 100 dollars spent. The restaurants are gradually chasing their customers away because they want to keep all their excessive profits and pass everything on to the consumer.

We may soon have a dying downtown again. The Sun already reported sales are down 50% in the downtown area. Let us stop this slippery slope sooner rather than later.

By John Q. Public on April 16, 2008 5:19 PM
RANDY wrote,
"1.It is almost 100% subsidized by the RESIDENTIAL TAXPAYERS.
With all due respect to T.B., he is missing the point that this 1.5% sales tax is being added to the restaurant bill after all is done and said. It is a sales tax that the resident pays after being already socked for a subsidy on his home real estate tax bill."

Actually, the cost would be paid by ALL customers, not just Naperville residents. Moreover, while we might very well tell the restaurant owners to pay the total cost of parking garages out of their own pockets, they are just going to pass these costs on to their customers in the form of higher prices. Either way the customer pays.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Mr. John Q. Public,
Yo must not be a retailer. I am! You can not just pass any cost to your customer. It does not work that way in the real world. In the real world what downtown businesses can charge is to a great extent related to what competitors charge in other similar areas.

What I suspect these downtown restaurants will do, if we charge them for their pro rata parking costs, is cut their profit margins to more realisitic levels before increasing their menu prices and chase their customers away.

If you don't have to pay for parking and the huge costs that are associated with parking such as cleaning, sweeping, snow plowing, lighting, insurance, maintaining, resurfacing, seal coating, re-striping, taking care of parking lot landscape and the list goes on, you are reaping a windfall profit that is unfair. This windfall profit should be given to the City of Naperville to help defray the cost of parking and save us taxpayers from having to pay for it.

In the strip centers, landlords pay for all this and the tenants reimburse the landlords. In downtown, the city is paying for all this and the tenants are not reimbursing the "second landlord" in this case who is providing this very expensive service and luxury.

I am not sure what you don't seem to understand Mr. Public. I understand Joe, Ken, RJ, SNT and T.B. don't get it. But you are believed to be much more intelligent, rational and reasonable than this group who seems to have a blind city agenda.

While some non-Naperville residents our contributing to this soon to be new sales tax, the majority is coming from Naperville residents. The downtown is the center of town and you can go 4-7 miles east, west, north and south before you get to another town. Thus most of any business comes from the nearest residents and declines as you get further away. There are Lou Malnati's and Giordanos in many towns and with the cost of gasoline, I doubt non-residents are going to skip their L @ G pizza places and come eat in ours when it is the same identical product and usually the same exact price.

I would like to ask you to rethink your position, Mr. Public and join us Napergatians for the call of fairness in this town.

Thank you, Mr. Public!

Chris,

My two cents worth:

*Naperville has a great police department.

*Chief Dial does a great job of protecting the citizens of Naperville.

*Most of us have no idea what the police do to protect the citizens of Naperville because the police do their job discretely most of the time.

*The reason the school officers are required Downtown is to help identify gang members from their High School that loiter in the downtown and are responsible for a lot of the crime in the Downtown. Car thefts, armed robberies, assaults with deadly weapons, car break-ins, drug dealing etc….

*Yes, we have gangs in Naperville, the murder and drug theft a couple of weeks ago was a live demo of what the NPD has done a great job of preventing that is so common in some of the towns surrounding Naperville. Naperville is where the money is.

*I don't believe that any of us were present during any of the alleged incidents involving the Napergate Man and the NPD. I have no idea how the police have or have not treated him or the reverse. If anything, our police force tends to be overly nice.

*The murder in S. Naperville was probably not preventable. If you want to sell drugs and run with hard core gang members you increase the probability of a bad outcome for yourself. Organized crime (gangs) in Naperville are adept at using every legal trick in the book to avoid giving the police probable cause to search them or their homes. This guy probably got what he deserved for selling drugs to kids. If Illinois were not controlled by the gutless country club elite (same club) that control both parties all five of the murders would hang.

*The amoral property owners that rent to people that are obvious criminals need to be held accountable no matter who or how big they are. The bullet could have just as easily passed through the sheet rock common wall and killed a baby in the crib.

By Ken on April 18, 2008 3:54 PM

. That is a decision the business owner makes, and since there is a turnover of businesses in the downtown area, it is also a risk they take. Businesses that use a private lot are unwilling to take that risk, and also unwilling to pay the higher square foot price of a downtown building.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Ken,
The turnover in business in the downtown Naperville, is mostly related to the GREED of the landlords. They have decided not to renew the leases of the Mom and Pop shops and go for the National Chains. Most vacancies are temporary until they can get the National Tenant they want because they can afford to pay double the rent.

The reason landlords can charge so much per sq. ft. is because the City of Naperville provided all this free parking at our expenses instead of the landlord's or tenant's expense.

A business would rather be in a downtown that has free parking instead of a downtown that charges for parking. Thus downtown Naperville Landlords can charge 40 to 50 bucks per square foot instead of 15 to 30 because of this free and plentiful parking The City enabled them to get that high rent at taxpayer expense.

Therefore, they should use 10 dollars out of that 40-50 dollars in base rent to pay for these 5 story parking garages. They could never have gotten that high rent if us residents and non-downtown businesses did not finance every thing for them.

I really don't see what you don't get Ken. Maybe you are a landlord who likes these unfair fringe benefits for your buildings and that is why you are playing dumb and acting like you don't get it.

It is about time you get it and it is about time you stop the name calling of the Napergatians as cultists. If you have not noticed, they are only calling you names because you continue to call them cultists after Moderator Jim advised you ever so gently that he disapproves of your name calling.

I guess you reap the harvest of what you sow in this world. The names you are being called are a result of the seeds you planted!

Joe,

I hate to disappoint you but I drive through the downtown a lot on weekends and have noticed a significant decrease of police over last year.

I really doubt you will see Chief David Dial assigning the School Police uselessly to the downtown area after the Napergatians called him out on so much wasted overtime.

Let us not forget about that preventable murder either.

He would be wise to assign those school police to take care of our subdivision drug problems. When a home has 20 cars visiting late Friday or Saturday, some check should be done! Half of those situtations involve drugs or tennage drinking. Maybe more!

Another preventable murder and Chief Dial will be forced to resign. The establishment will hold on to him as long as the embarassment is minimum. Once the embarassment becomes substantial he is out the door.

They are loyal to him if he helps keeps them in power. Once his actions or lack of action are counter-productive to keeping them in power, they will wave GOOD BYE to the CHIEF!

Robert, you can slice and dice my post all you want, but it does not change the facts in it. I did reply to Ryan, so you are showing the usual lack of reading comprehension exhibited by the cult. Go back and read my post again, or maybe for the first time, and you will see I have already answered your idiotic questions.

It seems that all the cult members want all businesses to pay for the infrastructure downtown that supports their businesses. You seem to think it is only fair that they pay for all the costs of a downtown business district. I would agree with this if the residents are then willing to assume all costs associated with housing. Let the businesses just pay for their needs and release them from paying towards schools, police and fire protection out of the business district, and subdivision road maintenance, including repaving, new curbs, sidewalks, etc.

That sounds fair, doesn't it? You don't want to pay for any of the costs associated with having businesses in town, why should they pay for the costs of having residences in town?

Beverly, you do have a point about the anonymity of the posting on this board. If people had to use their real name or we were talking to each other in person, the tone here would change considerably. The cult members would not be brave enough to do all the name calling and belittling that they do while hiding behind their keyboards. Robert definitely would not have enough guts to threaten to kill me in person as he just did in cyberspace. It is funny that Joe and I have both offered to meet in person with cult members at various times yet they are to afraid to do so. As I said, it is easy to be a keyboard Rambo as the cult shows so well.

"While the napergate cult seems to abhor what is going on with their city, most Naperville citizens seem quite content with the decisions made."

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------------------------------------

Ken,

The one thing the City has consistently refused to do is give the voters a direct say on capital projects via referendums. The school districts are the exception.

The 203 huge tax increases that doubled property taxes were presented as a $500 a year tax increase. Anyone that pays property tax realizes that they were lied to. Under the UCC there would be a good case for fraud and damages.

The recent 204 referendum was a blatant case of "bait and switch" by the school board using attendance projections that they should have known were false to justify the new building that comes with lots of: construction contracts, land deals, suppliers getting multi-year contracts, new members for the teachers union and more money for administrators. This is equivalent to selling swamp land with picture of dry farm field on the cover of the brochure.

With the exception of Doug Krause (on the library deck), the City Council has adopted the position of "we can all hang together or hang separately" in support of the income transfers from the rest of the city to the Downtown property and business owners. The 150 foot tall monument with bells on it is the most blatant “in your face” display of who really runs things in Naperville.

The only place the City Council and Mayor have left the Naperville voters to go in the November elections is to vote straight ticket Democrat for all offices in Naperville and Dupage County. The same Country Club Hubris that is probably going to result in the Democrats completely controlling the Federal Government after November is present in Naperville.

While the Democrats have their own set of issues, at least it will be a new set of problems. We can sweep them out in the next election cycle.

After November, it will be interesting to watch how fast the Chamber of Commerce dumps the spent Republican Party and starts sending their contributions to the Democrats.

Beverly,

I would guess based on your 'conclusions' that you do not have a science background. I could be wrong about that, but I found your data points and conclusion to be 'junk science'.

Most people with a science background understand cause/effect and 'coincidence' and also take into account other possibilities of why things happen.

The single-night observations you listed, are these the only data points you used to draw your conclusion that the Napergatians are causing the NPD to re-do their schedules?

Have you called and asked the NPD them if this is why the difference of police patrols? What did they say the reason was and who did you talk to? One would think that if it was really the Napergatians or even 'public pressure' they would say so. No harm on their part in that, right?

I am having trouble sleeping after my night out on the town.

Thus, I have a question for the Host or Moderator.

I am surprised by the sheer volume of the Letter to the Editor especially on this thread. That is what they mostly look like to me...Letters to the Editor.

My question is do you actually get a similar volume of Letters to the Editor for your print edition? Or are people more likely to do internet blogging because it may be easier?

It seems just as easy to write a Letter to the Editor since I am assuming you can e-mail it in these days instead of using snail mail that needs postage, paper and an envelope combined with the inconvenience of time and gas to run it to the Post Office.

This was nothing more than a curiosity question! I hope you can be kind enough to give an answer by comparing Letters to the Editor to Blog Letters!

Do you possibly think the sheer volume of Blog Letters is huge possibly because of the Anonymity factor since the IP number can not be traced to a home without much effort and you have indicated no interest in doing such a thing?

I guess it is amazing how technology has really changed all of our lives! I hope you can comment a little since this is an OPEN FORUM and I assume all topics are open for discussion. I must say I like OPEN FORUMS and not being restricted to what I can write...kind of like you can write anything about any topic in a Letter to the Editor in the old days! Who does not miss the great old days...maybe except for that snail-mail...I prefer e-mail...lol?

PS. Speaking of sheer volume of letters it seems like this thread would be approaching 800 instead of 600 if it was not hidden for 10 days. From reading it I noticed one Napergatian girl did all the bloggin it seems like for 12 days as she was the only one able to find it since it was not in the Napergate Link and no one knew about the Archive on the bottom of the Main Page which was a new feature that had not been publicized yet.

On second thought maybe it would be approaching a 1000, if all those letters were not deleted so often. I guess the Napergate Man really started something with his Napergate ads in the Sun that seems to have transferred to this blog site. I guess the power of these Napergate Threads is a testament to the power of his Napergate ads and the very strong distribution and penetration of the old Naperville Sun. It seems like the old historic momentum is fueling this site since there are no tie-ins coming from the new Naperville Sun...just my observations after reading for 2 hours tonight. Good night as I am finally beat between boozing it up and reading!

Thanks to the Moderator and Host for providing this spectacular blog site to us, Napervillians! When you think about it, despite all the hurdles, obstacles and bumps in the road, it is truly an AWESOME BLOG SITE! Best in Chicagoland by far! Keep up the GREAT PERFORMANE, Jim and Ted!

Moderator,

While writing my first letter, I saw a letter by a Robert that I was going to respond to in a second letter. It was number 583. I refreshed at least 10 times to get this letter again but it disappeared and I am only getting 582. I doubt you are up at 345am deleting letters unless you were dowtown as I was.

I really think it is a computer glitch. I have had similar problems before when refreshing where I did not get the last letter(s). But usually if I refresh twice, I always get the last post. Most times, on one refresh, I don't get the latest posts. It takes one or more refreshes to get the latest posts.

I hope you can look into the problem. I think it hurts your blog site when people come on and see the same old letters. People or bloggers tend to respond to the latest posts. Not the olderst posts that they already read.

Anyway, I forgot to mention in my first post that we did not see the yellow Hummer H2 or the Napergate Man, as we were hoping to meet him. Maybe next time! Or maybe he will never park on Chicage Ave again after that ordealish nightmare! I guess next time we will check the 5th level of the parking deck as he may be trying to avoid the Naperville Police..lol. Who need another FATEFUL EVENING especially with the weather so BEAUTIFUL and GORGEOUS!

Bloggers,

I was downtown with my girl friends for dinner and a few drinks after.

I would like to say:

1. We all found street level parking with relative ease in a matter of minutes.

2. The restaurant we went to seemed to be only at 60% capaicity. Last year it was 80-90% capacity on a Friday evening.( I read this site and I understand we can not mention names of restaurants anymore...I disagree but will repect the new guidelines)

3. The bars also seemed to be less crowded despite 71 degree temperature but much busier than the restaurants.

4. My gut feeling is older folks who have mortagages are cutting back on expensive meals where young people who have no responsibilities are determined to have their fun at any cost until MATURITY OR DEATH SETS IN, WHICHEVER MAY COME FIRST!

5. I did notice much less police than last April/May especially on Chicago Ave. It did not look like a POLICE TOWN! Naperville was back being a FUN TOWN! Everyone was acting responsibly even though the police presence was almot not noticeable.

My conclusion is the Napergatians are making a difference. I think we will see much less police overtime next year.

No doubt in my mind that the Chief of Police reads this blog site VERY CAREFULLY! And wants to do what is right even if it was pointed out by the always observant NAPERGATIANS!

By Ken on April 18, 2008 3:54 PM
So much for the cult being able to debate without the personal attacks, right Betsy and Ryan? Obviously we are both wrong here, as I expect to debate with rational adults and you think you are smart people.

Since you two are so smart, want to explain how a property owner is going to install underground parking under an existing building?

____________________________________________________________________

Ken,
When you behave as stupidly as you behave you will be attacked. You have replaced Joe as the idiot of idiots on these blogs.

The Promenade is a relatively new building. It is a huge building. The City and developers should have had the vision to demand and install undergroud parking respectively when this large building was put up a few years back. I believe we had already built one or 2 of the high deck garages before this building was even built. Of course this huge one block 3 story building was going to create a parking crisis since it did not provide a SINGLE SPOT!

A building this size, with a huge Frog Bar name Hugos, needs its own parking garage. The owners could have at least built two or 3 underground levels for parking as is so typical of large buildings in downtowns. Dense you are Ken! This stuff is done before the building is built. Not after as you stupid question implies! People have to have foresight. It they don't have forsight they don't belong in elected office or any office in the City Of Naperville!

Ms. Patti Roberts who has an office on the 3rd story of the Promenade Building, and who is very pro downtown business, even said a parking garage should have been built under that buidling.

Apparently, the wealthy owners did not want to encounter the additional cost and passed it on to the taxpayers, thinking they would get away with it, since the Napergate Man had retired and no was watching or holding them or anyone accountable when it was built.

Argue all you want, Ken, but you are making a fool of yourself.
Downtowns don't work the way you stated. Business subsidize or pay for their own parking. When they don't, they use private parking and pay for it. They don't get freebies from taxpayers not once but twice...real estate and sales tax to contribute to THEIR parking!

Realtor Ryan shot your theory out the window and you did not respond to him. The out-of-downtown businesses pay the same taxes as the downtown businesses and they have to pay for their parking. So the downtown businesses have not paid a red cent yet for those parking garages and or for any parking downtown. I doubt that 1.5% sales tax will even pay for cleaning, lighting, insuring and maintaining those garages let alone building them, when and if, it is ever implemented. Interestingly, they broke ground on garage 3 very quickly but still have not implemented the new insignifacnt sales tax, that may pay for 10% of the true cost.

Keep being an idiot, Ken, and you will have 500 people blasting you soon. Idiots get blasted! Idiots get attacked!
And you should be no exception since you have been calling the Napergatians cultists. I hope they let you have it. If your real name was being used you would have no credibility or reputation left in this town. I would rather see you leave town instead of asking Randy to leave town. You are the cuckoo head here, not Randy!

"Anonymous and Downtown" knows exactly what is happening in this town. Now he knows more after listening to Ryan and gaining more knowledge.

Apparently you are not only blind but deaf just like the Barbie Doll version that represents you. Your brain is as empty as the plastic in the head of your toy model.

If you want to keep us from putting the jugular on the city, we will put it on you and shame you in a ways that are unimaginable for your baseless arguments that are only meant for idiotic Ken/Barbie/Joey type rises! Grow up Kenny Boy! Use your brain! THINK! REASON! PLEASE!

Realtor Ryan,

Thanks for explaining the parking financing for other than the Downtown.

I am glad to hear that the rest of the business community is waking up. They are getting shafted too.

Ken either does not want to understand or can not understand the argument against the current system of financing the downtown. I guess that his problem is the former and not the latter.

The arguments for the current system would be better saved for a presumably simple minded jury that is easily clouded by an attorney with a weak hand, Ken is I am guessing an attorney.

So much for the cult being able to debate without the personal attacks, right Betsy and Ryan? Obviously we are both wrong here, as I expect to debate with rational adults and you think you are smart people.

Since you two are so smart, want to explain how a property owner is going to install underground parking under an existing building? Do you have any facts to show that parking deck costs were not figured into the Promenade's and other new construction projects permit fees? The excerpt from the Sun article I posted said that the first two decks were financed publicly and privately including developer's contributions. Of course, if you lack reading comprehension, as most of the cult members do, you did not understand that.

Ryan, if you want people to pull right up to your business, you put it in a spot where you assume the expenses of your customer's parking. If you are confident that people are willing to walk to your business, you go to the downtown area and let them worry about their own parking. That is a decision the business owner makes, and since there is a turnover of businesses in the downtown area, it is also a risk they take. Businesses that use a private lot are unwilling to take that risk, and also unwilling to pay the higher square foot price of a downtown building.

Randy, I wouldn't wish good riddance to the current administration just yet. While you claim everybody is fed up with paying for decks, I fail to see a grass roots groundswell of people agreeing with you. Most rational people realize that the decks are the only viable solution to the parking woes downtown. If you don't want any of your tax money going to them, move to one of the several surrounding towns that don't promote their downtowns as a shopping and eating destination. Otherwise, maybe it is time to realize that taxes support even the infrastructure of a town that you don't like.
While the napergate cult seems to abhor what is going on with their city, most Naperville citizens seem quite content with the decisions made.

Mr. Jim Lynch,

I am extremely shocked that you would delete 10 posts after having approved and published them. All I might say very good posts!

No letter gets posted without your approval, Ted's approval and sometimes possibly joint approval. Somehow you guys approve them. There was no libel or profanity in them. I happen to be lucky and read them all.

My question is why would you reverse yourselves. You are both very experienced journalists and editors.

Here is my speculation. The restaurant owner in question pressured you to remove them...and again as typical you fell for the pressure.

I know some bar owners. I was not at that meeting where the son of the owner made that statement. But I was told by 2 bar owners downtown who were at that liquor meeting that in fact he made that statement.

Would it not have been easier to call the Mayor or City Attorney for a minute or two to verify that statement, rather than delete 10 letters that bloggers spent up to an hour each writing. Is 10 hours of their time less important than 2 minutes of you time?

I think this kind of action really hurts your blog site when you trash people's hard work. How do you expect to continue growing your blog site exponentially when you are trashing people's writings so easily? It is almost disrespectful to your writers especially because you gave them no chance to edit and repost.

Here you may have your best thread ever, approaching 600 posts(most being long), and you trash 10 posts. What is more important your blog site or this restaurant? You did nothing wrong. The ownership made public statements that they may be regretting. Well, they should have never made those public statements about their revenue in the first place instead of making them and than regretting them. And than possibly pressuring the Naperville Sun to remove them from their blog site.

Maybe the restauranter should be pressuring his 30 year old son who manages the joint to watch what he utters from his mouth instead of the PUBLISHER/EDITOR!

Anyway, I think you should take Norma up on her offer to edit his name out of the letters and republish. Those letters were all good and helped us understand who is really paying for all those PARKING GARAGES! It would be a travesty if your 100,000 views per week miss those fine letters!

Ken,

I am sorry but all your logic falls apart when you compare downtown retailers to non downtown retailers.

Non-downtown retailers also collect this same sales tax that has been collected downtown for the last 177 years or however back they started collecting it. They also pay this same real estate tax just like the downtown businesses, directly or indirectly, depending on if they own their own building.

But despite all this they have to pay for their own parking separate from these 2 items. They pay through a third item, called Common Area Maintenance. The majority of this expense is for maintaining and using the parking lot...some of it, a small portion, is for the roof.

The average non-downtown business is paying roughly 1.5 to 2.0 dollars per square foot for parking in addition to his Real Estate Tax he pays and the sales tax he collects.

This is where your equation is off, Ken! This is where you are wrong and everyone else is right including Norma, Claire, Blake, Randy, and A and D.

What makes the formula even more outrageous and unfair is the cost of downtown parking is 10 times as much as strip parking and yet these downtown landlords are skating free while collecting 50 bucks per square foot in rent.

Outside of the downtown area, rent is less than half of the downtown area. The landlords make much less money and yet have to provide parking to their tenants without using the sales tax they collect or the real estate tax they pay annually.

Since they pay for their own parking, it seems like some, if not most, of the sales tax they collect and some of the real estate taxes they pay, are going to subsidize their competitors downtown!
Do you see the unfairness, Ken, or are you still unable to COMPREHEND!

As a realtor this is all I hear day and night. I think the next election is the final election for the establishment.

If the Napergate Man comes out and joins us, the Establishment is fried in 2009. Done forever! Good Bye! Good Riddens! I never seen a dumber leadership and it seems Ken is one of them to be trying to JUSTIFY THE UNJUSTIFIABLE!

Downtown properties obviously do not have the room to build their own parking lots. Strip malls, regular malls, businesses, and private residences are zoned to contain private parking. If you can't understand the difference, it would hopeless to try to explain it to you.

Norma, Norma, Norma. I see you are from the attack side of the cult. I'm a blond sicko that plays with dolls just because I disagree with you, yet I am the one with the comprehension of a 7th grader?

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Hey Kenny Boy,
I agree that you are a blond sicko with little to no comprehension.

Downtown properties do have the room to build their own parking. It is called underground parking common in all downtowns but Naperville.

I discussed this with Ms. Patti Roberts, Executive Director of the Downtown Naperville Alliance, and she agreed with me that this huge Promenade Building should have had its own undergroud parking garage. When I asked her why they did not build one, "She stated to save money."

And boy, did they ever save money, at my expense and every Napervillian's expense, you dumber than dumb Kenny Barbie Doll. That is why people make fun of you because you act STUPID and DUMB on these blogs all the time, day and night, without exception!

The people who built that building are establishment folks who are loaded with money. They are expanding their building within the next year on the NE corner. Instead of using their profits to buy parking, they are using it to expand, since they know City Officials will continue socking the residents for the cost of these high deck parking spots at 40k each!

They charge 40-50 bucks a square foot in their beautiful building. With this kind of rent they could have and should have built their own undergroud 2 story garage. But why should they when idiots like Kenny Boy are out here blabbering their mouths telling them keep building and we will handle your parkng at 40k a spot. See how dumb you are Ken! Diana and Norma are right about you!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

PS. I commend "Anonymous and Downtown" for bringing his knowledge on the matter and adding to the Naperatian Firepower. We need all the help we can get to oust this Establishment out of power in 2009. Enough of pick pocketing my and your purse for those folks in power and their friends!

We hope one day you consider joining our Napergate Movement as Kevin and so many others have. We would love to have a brain like yours in our movement to join other intellectuals like Randy, Liebert, Ryan, Ameena, Maryann and so many others that I could never possibly name in one post! I am sure you can see why we get upset when we have to deal with dummies like Kenny, who have the comprehension of a 1st grader at most not to have thought of underground parking as a very feasible and affordable option.

Actually, the downtown would look so much prettier if all the larger and new buildings had underground parking. Imagine our little downtown is going to have 5 huge parking decks very soon...eyesores if you will! All this could have been avoided if our City Council demanded undergroud parking from estbalishment folks worth 100,000,000 dollars give or take some.

There was more than adequate parking for the old smaller buildings. But if City Officials allow these new monstrous buildings to continue to skim on their responsibilities, they will skim. And that is what has happened right before our eyes...and Kenny is as Blind as his Kenny Doll that has plastice eyes with no visionary capabilities!!!

Moderator,

Our city officials have no clue what is going on. They make decisons hoping no one would call them out. I guess the Napergate Man use to call them out, embarass them and they would reverse their decisons.

I wish the Naperville Sun would call them out like those Napergate Ads called them out, so we can have some kind of sanity in this town again.

Subsidizing retailers claiming to ring up 80k in retail sales just from a balcony seems ridiculous. They need to pay for their parking no different than non-downtown retailers and also as "Anonymous and Downtown" pointed it out, just like the NAPERVILLE SUN PAYS FOR ITS OWN PARKING!

The Naperville Sun should be OUTRAGED! They are also subdizing this downtown parking at the expense of RAISES TO THEIR EMPOLYEES!

What is more important! Your annual RAISES or Joe's RISES which you seem to be falling for!

Join us Napergatians and let us all return Naperville to SANITY and JUSTICE for all!

AandD, I will be happy to explain basic civics to you. A vibrant downtown brings residents and non-residents alike to shop or eat in Naperville. Naperville collects a sales tax from each transaction which they use via the town budget to provide services. Without the sales tax, the residential tax would go up to replace that money. The property owners where the businesses are located also pay property tax that also go into the town's budget. If the business owner does not own the property, the taxes are figured into his rent. So, contrary to your claims, the business owner is contributing towards the parking. The extra 1.5% tax tacked on is meant to help alleviate some of the costs that directly benefit those businesses.

If there is a parking problem, as there is in any vibrant downtown area, the city has two options to alleviate the problem. One is private decks that normally charge an outrageous fee as the ones in Chicago do. The option Naperville took was to provide public parking funded by the public so they could keep the downtown area as a vibrant tax producing area. The shopping mall revolution has destroyed many downtown areas and Naperville is doing what they think best to avoid that from happening to their downtown. I remember when the vacancy rates were up in downtown and think most would prefer and support a busy downtown rather than a boarded up one.

Bringing up the Sun property or your property and acting like they face the same problems as a downtown area is disingenuous at best. Downtown properties obviously do not have the room to build their own parking lots. Strip malls, regular malls, businesses, and private residences are zoned to contain private parking. If you can't understand the difference, it would hopeless to try to explain it to you.

Norma, Norma, Norma. I see you are from the attack side of the cult. I'm a blond sicko that plays with dolls just because I disagree with you, yet I am the one with the comprehension of a 7th grader?

Hopefully you can read and comprehend what I wrote to AandD above in answer to you parking deck and tax questions, so I will address your questions on hearsay and fact.

Someone, or four someones posting anonymously on a message board that they heard something either personally or second hand is not fact. If the Randy had put his business name in writing as he was willing to do with another business man's, he would have added a credibility to his post that would be hard to impeach. Since he did not see fit to do so, even the moderators had to view his post with skepticism and remove it. In all reality, I could claim I was at the same meeting and never heard that remark, or heard it differently. As I said, Hillary Clinton remembered being under sniper attack in Bosnia, and it turns out that never happened. As I don't know anyone who owns a liquor license, I have no way of verifying someone else's claims.

Diana got frustrated with me for the same reason you are. Your lack of reading comprehension and facts forces you to attack the messenger instead of the message, and I am not willing to be viciously attacked without responding to it.

By Anonymous and Downtown on April 18, 2008 9:22 AM
Ken,

Can you explain how giving the Downtown property owners free 40K parking spaces and allowing the renters of the commercial properties to pay tax bills that appear to be way below market benefits the whole town? Mr X failed at making the same argument in public forums, maybe you can help make the case here.

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Anonymous and Downtown,
Everything you have stated the last few days makes 100% sense. Just as Randy, Liebert and Realtor Ryan before you. You are all right on.

Ken seems to be another Joe who is just on these threads to get rises and highs!

I did read back a few days ago and saw that confrontation between Diana and Kenny Boy.

I think I agree with Norma, Diana and A@D that Kenny Boy is missing some screws...sorry a lot of screws! He is competing with Joe for the next HEAD CASE!

====================================================================

By Ken on April 18, 2008 8:46 AM

All you napergate crowd keep saying you are subsidizing the business owners. Do you have any idea how a town works?

____________________________________________________________________

Ken,

I think Napergatians like Randy, Liebert, Napervlle Lawyer and Realtor Ryan have been explaining how a town works. Apparently you don't read or comprehend.

Since the 1.5% sales tax has not even started yet that will partially pay for the 3 new garages, this proves we gave the downtown retailers the first 2 garages literally for FREE. Even when this tax starts it is coming from the residents and not the businesses in the form of a sales tax tacked on to the bill.

It was explained many times that retailers outside the downtown area, pay their landlords roughly 2 bucks per square foot for parking in something called CAM! Downtown landlords and retailers so far have paid nothing.

Why should the non-downtown retailers pay for their own parking and have their real estate taxes subsidize downtown retailers who are competing with them? Dah! Is that fair? Why should residents pay for this downtown parking from their house real estates tax bills when all the retail profit is going to the businesses and not the residents?

Plus downtown parking cost 40k for each spot to build since we are talking about expensive land and a building structure. Strip Center parking away from downtown, cost $4,000 dollars to build per spot, since we are talking about paving some asphalt over some rocks on some land.

Thus the businesses downtown are very subsidized for parking.

After these exchanges with you, Ken, I understand why Diana got frustrated with you and told you to go play with your Barbie Dolls. You seem to have the comprehesion of a 7 year old boy playing with other Ken and Barbie! I can finally understand why they named the dolls after you. How fitting! Are you a blond, Kenny?

Ken,

I have heard at least 4 different people say this same comment that Ralph heard. A bar owner made it yesterday before her/his post was deleted as she/he was at the meeting. Only some one there could give those extreme details as was described. She or he gave extreme details as to how the comment came around. Randy also heard the comment from friend's in the liquor business. And at least one other blogger heard it. If it was not made, Jimmy could call Mr. Lynch and tell him 250 other licensees heard his son wrong! And Mr. Lynch will have to decide if he is going to believe Jimmy or 250 others who heard the comment.

Why don't you call the Mayor or City Attorney if you don't want to believe the Napergatians or non-Napergatian bloggers like Bar Owner. Blogger Bar Owner identified them as being there.

Ken, I am sorry, but you sound like a sicko. When the Napergatians provide facts you want to go back to specualtion. When they provied specualtion you want fact. If 250 people heard a statemnent it is as factual as it will get. It really can't get much better than that.

On the School Thread, the Naperville Sun has a different standard. People can say they heard a lady from Tall Grass say she would never send her kids to a school where they shop at Kohl's instead of Nieman Marcus. Yet, Publisher Jim allows that in when it is obviously a lie. When many Napergatians tell the truth and a fact is proven by 4 people with the potential of 250 to prove the fact since they all heard it, it is considered hearsay on the Napergate Thread. It should not be since the Sun can make one phone call to verifiy that it was in fact said, and true, Ken!

By the way since every liquor licensee in town heard it and I am sure you know a few of them, why not ask them and verfiy on your own! It is that simple and you may become a believer in the Napergate Movement! If not, at least you would know we told you the truth!

Moderator,

I guess I was one of the few lucky ones to get to read all those letters yesterday before they were deleted. Could they not be edited with the name of the restaurant removed instead of the entire letter trashed!

Is there any chance you can repost them?

I guess if I can back space about 10-15 pages on this site I still have those letters as I never closed my window from yesterday.

Would you like me to edit them all for you and remove the name of the restaurant? It really would not take me that long since sometimes it was only mentioned once or twice.

I hate to see all those infrequent writers have their letters tossed like that, Moderator.

I think by doing that you can frustrate people into not wanting to blog anymore when you toss their hard work just like that. How would you feel, Moderator, if you spent an hour writing your Friday column, and your colleague or boss(I know you don't have a boss) just rectangulared your letter. You would be most likely upset. You would have wished he told you who to fix it up or edit to qualify for publication.

But just to dump those 5-10 letters from yesterday is not fair. If they were so bad why were they posted for a few hours. Who approved them initially?

Anyway, let me know if you want me to edit them and repost them with a note as to who wrote them and another note mentioning they were only edited as regards to the specific restaurant's name.

What I like about all those letters is they truly explained whose paying for the parking garages. They were easy to understand! "Naperville Lawyer" and "Bar Owner not in Downtown" both did spectacular jobs and in no way were they attacking the restaurant. They were using data provided by the owners to explain who is contributing what amount for these very controversial high deck multi-story garages.

In some crazy way once it was personalized, it was easier to understand. If one soldier dies and we are given the details we feel tons of sympathy. If we are told 17 soldiers died and not ever given first names, we can not relate. How sad! But that is the unfortunate reality!

I think that is why those letters were so effective. But I agree with you they probably should have said restaurant instead of named a restaurant. But if they would have done that City Supporting Bloggers would have jumped on the Napergatians saying that is all speculation.

But if they give exact facts from real data, it is not permitted.

I think we have a CATCH 22 situation, Moderator! What is your suggestion to remedy the situation?

We had a similar situation with Diana being bashed for speculation. But once she got the goods to show to the City Boys/Men she could not publish. Maybe you need to tell the City Boys/Men that you don't want actual facts and to let us speculate using hypotheticals to make our points. See if they will accept...good luck!!!

PS. Speaking of columns, Moderator, I enjoyed your column today in the Print Edition. I recommend everyone read it as it is nostalgic. I did not know you were from the East Coast and only been living in Naperville for 2 years. I thought the Sun only hired 50 year or more die hard establishment residents to be PUBLISHER/EDITOR...just kidding! What was your connection from the East Coast to Naperville other than a plane ride...!!!

Ken,

Can you explain how giving the Downtown property owners free 40K parking spaces and allowing the renters of the commercial properties to pay tax bills that appear to be way below market benefits the whole town? Mr X failed at making the same argument in public forums, maybe you can help make the case here.

If providing free parking for commercial property owners is good for the economy of Naperville, should we provide the same benefit to all business in Naperville? Should the Sun develop their parking lot into office or commercial space and the City can build a free parking deck nearby that everyone else can pay for? The SUN can pay not more than 66% of the cost.

Should I be allowed to build a second house on my yard-driveway and the city will construct a nearby parking lot for my properties?

Or, my driveway needs paving, can the City re-pave it for me since I live close to the bars and walk downtown?

I think what the moderators are saying, Ralph, is that until they have the public record those numbers are hearsay. You say you heard a specific owner claim a specified revenue and want everyone to take your word for it. You won't even name your business, yet are willing to name another. Jim is saying he doesn't have the time checking meeting transcripts and video to make sure your anonymous account is accurate. First hand accounts are notoriously inaccurate as Hillary Clinton just proved with an account of her trip to Bosnia. That is the problem with the napergate crowd. They claim hearsay, opinion, and supposition as fact.

All you napergate crowd keep saying you are subsidizing the business owners. Do you have any idea how a town works? Everybody's taxes go towards maintaining the town's infrastructure, schools, fire department, police department, etc. The elected officials saw that there was a parking problem downtown. They came up with the decks to fix that problem. As this benefits the whole town, the whole town residents and business owners alike pay taxes to support it. Napergatian's complaint that the businesses are getting a free ride stretch the truth as they are paying what the town has deemed a fair portion towards something that benefits the whole town.

Jim Lynch, Moderator,

Thanks for clarifying. If I understood you correctly we can blog about any subject regarding City Hall and the City Police!

I appreciate that!

I did read those nice long insightful letters that were posted for a few hours and later deleted.

Some of those letters take 2 hours to write. Trashing is going to upset the authors when they find out. It is almost like you don't respect their time. Time is precious and valuable!

They were only responding to earlier posters. If you read their letters carefully they had nothing against this one restaurant. They were upset at the City for not making sure, not only this one restaurant, but all commercial establishments downtown paid their fair share of parking.

The statement about this one restaurant that made the 80k in revenue came during a public meeting in which one of the owners mentioned it to inform city officials that he could not afford downtime for drawing diagrams of tables, chairs and patio umbrellas. He wanted the City and residents to know he was making 80k per weekend in revenuue on this patio, and he does not have time to play Barbie and Ken "barbie doll layout games" with City Hall. City Hall was trying to tell him where they wanted every table located and they want it diagramed and submitted for approval. I thought City Hall was giving the poor owner a hard time...he should be able to lay out his tables as he sees fit. This is not Communist Cuba where you tell a business owner exactly where each table should be. I am sure he knows how to space them and will do that so he can have aisles between them for server to get thru.
We don't need BIG BROTHER interfering in such petty matters.

I agree with this establishment. They were being given a hard time and fighting back. They threw that large REVENUE number in an effort to let the city understand they are interferring with their business and costing them money.

The number was spoken by the son of the restaurant owner in a public forum on a microphone. I was there also because I handle the liquor license for a grocery store in town and was required to be there. There must have been 250-300 liquor licensees and employees at City Hall in April of 2007. We were there to pick up our liquor licenses and receive our annual lecture by the Mayor and City Attorney!

I guess if this one specfic establishment is throwing their revenue numbers out in public for whatever reason, why do you mind if we use the numbers they threw out at us, to try to explain the parking garage fiasco???

We did not make anything up. We just quoted the OWNERSHIP of the restaurant!

Jim Lynch, Moderator,

I am completely puzzled with your non-stop actions to censor the Napergate Thread. We have accepted being on only this thread in return for you allowing us freedom of expression on any topic as long as we don't libel and slander.

Why don't you honor what you promised us? Did we misunderstand you?
Why do you care so much about what topics we adopt? Why do you care if we expose the parking structures are being paid for by residential instead of commercial tax dollars? Did you not name this thread "open forum." I assume that means any topic goes except libel and profanity.

Your constant interference with Napergatian discussion leads to this perception that Sun Officials are bedfellows with City Officials! Why do you want to perpetuate this perception, or worse prove it with your uncalled for actions?

Let the conversation flow. It seems not only is the City of Naperville threatened by the articulation of Napergatians, but so is the Naperville Sun threatened...or it at least appears that way.

We are not violent people! Our goal is to expose this incompetent establishment by revealing their secrets and ousting them the American way....

IN THE NEXT ELECTION!

Please let us do it, Mr. Lynch.

Thanks!

Jim,

I am sure you are being a nice guy and sensitive. You don't want to hurt the names of our great restaurants in town. I don't blame you.

Maybe Jimmy's should not be mentioned by name. He was selected as an example of all bars and restaurants downtown since he is both.

Maybe it is unfair he was selected to be an example.

But bloggers should be able to discuss the parking deck and where the money is coming to finance it.

This is a very serious Napergate issue since it involves TAXPAYER MONEY. Anything that fleeces money away from any residential taxpayers is a NAPERGATE ISSUE THAT NEEDS TO BE UNCOVERED.

Napergate simply means uncovering the COVER-UPS. The Napergate Man came up with this great coin, but are we not allowed to use it? Does he object? I suspect he appreciates that we are all jointly trying to finish what he started but did not!

Many of us are just learning about this Napergate Man and wish we had done more to help him at the time. It seems like he gave it one hell of a Herculean effort. Let us continue down the path he started.

Mr. Jim Lynch,

Even if you did not like the mention of the specific name of a restaurant in the Naperville Lawyer's letter, why not ask him to delete the name and repost instead of deleting it with no comment.

That was a real great letter. He hit it on the nose when he pointed out to taxpayers {up to 66%} could come from downtown bars and restaurants and bar owners.

He explained that this tricky wording could also mean only 10% could come from the downtown restaurants and bar owners.

Please consider reposting that letter. It was the best letters of the last week on this thread.

The Naperville Lawyer rarely posts and if you start deleting his letters he may never waste his time writing again.

Please be sensitive, Mr. Lynch so we can all grow your blog site to be the best one in Chicagoland area.

What do you mean by staying on topic. Our mission is to fight City Hall in any way and any time we feel it deviates from the norms of operating without full transparency.

Moderator Jim,

What exactly do you mean on topic?

The title is OPEN FORUM which means all topics that concerns Napergatians are OPEN for Discussion!

The parking deck has a lot to do with Napergate and Napergatians.

Napergate is about watching government waste, making sure taxpayer dollars are spent properly, corruption in government, overtime waste in the police department, etc.

It was Host Ted who stated we beat the downtown arrest to death.

So we switched topics.

Napergate was never about a single man. His ads were not about himself. He never mentioned his name once in 44 Napergate ads.

Could you be kind enough to elaborate?

I was disappointed with the removal of Naperville Attorney's letter as I thought it was very informative and explained how these garages are being subidized by the taxpayer instead of the downtown retailer. Could you consider reposting?

I hope you can explain why you are limiting any topics of discussion that concern City Hall or the City Police since the Napergate Movement's main role is to watch government. I think the Napergate ads and the Napergate Man made that clear over 20 years!

Thank you, Mr. Moderator!

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Regarding the mention of the individual restaurateurs, the owners made a statement in a public forum before 300 people. We are just repeating what they said. City Officials were at the public meeting and can verify what is being post. You don't need to rely on the Napergatians since there is an independent source plus a video may exist since the meeting was in Council Chambers! Please review the tape. Restaurateurs can not make public statements about their business revenue and than consider it to be a private matter. They opened the can of worms...we did not!!!

By the way we have nothing against the particular restaurant mentioned. It is a great restaurant. Our problem is with City Hall and how they allocate who should pay for what from the Real Estate Tax Bills and the sales tax receipts collected in town.

Again, please clarify your position, Mr. Moderator!

Moderator Jim,

Agree with not singling out the spokesman for the downtown restaurants, we should be flogging all of them.

Having said that, the economics of the spokesman do make an excellent case study for what is wrong. Should we refer to restaurant X?

The Napergate posters tend to find a thread leading back to Napergate in many topics which is why I asked that they get their own board where they can Napergate until the they drop.

While I am not one of them, abuse of power and corruption seem to be their targets. Does this not make all questionable public expenditures fair game for this section?

Would it be better to re-name this section official corruption and abuse of power section, and Napergate tie in?

This is the hottest free form part of the blogs. Apparently the most faithfull posters are the Napergate crowd.

Agree personal attacks and name calling are out.

Attention all Napergatians: You've been veering off topic again....and I posted several by mistake. They have all been deleted. No more comments on individual restaurateurs and I don't see what the parking deck has to do with Napergate. It's becoming annoying...stay on topic. I don't know how many times I have to say it.

By Anonymous and Downtown on April 17, 2008 11:41 AM

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Ken,

If the Nichols deck were not built the City could cut taxes to the homeowners for the full amount of the deck. Make no mistake, the homeowners are buying the deck for the restaurants and giving up the safety of our children as the reward.

This is the City Council and Mayor rewarding their political and economic base for their seats. Money talks.

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Anonymous and Downtown,

I have been reading your posts the last 2 days and you have shown a very deep knowledge of what is occurring in our community.

It is really about rewarding their political and economic base for their seats as you have stated so succinctly. Notice how they spoil them!

The Napergate Man, who will not play their political games and accept FIEFDOM RULE, is not even allowed to come downtown. They will get him for anything. Next time, just watch! They will write him a ticket for not initiating his turn signal within 100 feet of an intersection when there may not even be 100 ft. as is the case in some areas downtown. These are stupid laws that are only enforced on non-establishment non-conforming residents. Never on ESTABLISHMENT FOLKS! I call it DISCRIMINATION!

Randy:

"When did Joe go to the library, do some research, and write an insightful and enlightening letter! Never!"

I did many times. I pointed people to city code for the situational problems they were having (towing and resolution thereof), conducted research at the court house (that honked some people off) and even pointed people to the right groups in the city to air their complaints.

As I pointed out earlier, some people just have to maintain the personal attacks and thank you for demonstrating that once again.

How could the city rebate the whole cost of the deck when the residents are only responsible for 1/3 the cost?

Why is the safety of children at stake? How many children have been run over or killed at the existing parking decks?

"The Nichols deck is the only project that will need complete city funding, which means property taxes will help finance the other 34 percent of the deck. The other two are public/private ventures with developers sharing a portion of the costs."

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Ken,

If the Nichols deck were not built the City could cut taxes to the homeowners for the full amount of the deck. Make no mistake, the homeowners are buying the deck for the restaurants and giving up the safety of our children as the reward.

This is the City Council and Mayor rewarding their political and economic base for their seats. Money talks.

Randy, those still aren't facts, and can't be presented as such. Someone saying they heard an owner's son state profits is hearsay. And even though the restaurant is open for 15 hours, there are plenty of slow periods even on the weekend. They would have to have roughly 285 tables of four each day to achieve that number.

It has also been stated that the majority of the cost for the parking decks comes from the residents. This is directly out of the Naperville Sun on March 18, 2008:

Part of the agreement notes that restaurant owners' tax contributions will not exceed 66 percent of the costs of a parking project. The parking projects include the Van Buren deck addition, the new Water Street deck and the new Nichols Library deck. The Nichols deck is the only project that will need complete city funding, which means property taxes will help finance the other 34 percent of the deck. The other two are public/private ventures with developers sharing a portion of the costs.

Once again, while I do not agree with the need for a library deck, it seems like the merchants are paying their fair share.

Kevin,
Like I said in my longer letter, the Napergate Man would be proud of you. You seem to be a man of action and not words.

As has been stated before on this blog site, I got very involved with the Napergate Man during the ATT/Lucent/World Com/MCI fiasco.He needed an inside source to the company and I was his inside source to get grass roots going inside the company using our e-mail system which I was allowed to do since it was an issue concerning our company. You can never imagine how outraged my company was when City Hall switched to MCI to save a half or penny per houshold per year.

It was very easy to rally they ATT employees....very easy!

We filled City Council Chambers and the City Council reversed from 7-0 for to 7-0 against.

I can't tell you the gratification I felt working with the Napergate Man on this issue and others. Once you get started, if you have a good cause it is not really that difficult.

But you have to have a good cause or people are not motivated.

I think this downtown parking is a good cause and I could see it really taking off if the Naperville Sun gives us a few articles in the Print Edition and invites more people to blog with us on Napergate Open Forum. The Napergatians are good at converting newcomers so hopefully it would be a Napergate permissible debate. The Napergate Man and his Movement has good credibiity and if we continue in his path and keep our credibility we will be much more successful in converting newcomers than if we speak as no ones from nowhere. I hope the Host and Moderator understand where we are coming from with the use of Naperate.

Obviously our joint strategy is workinng becasue we are succeeding in converting people over while City Supporters like Joe seemed only able to convert his computer to his side. John Q. Public, T.B. and Kevin are more and more understanding to our viewpoints if they ignore the very hostile bloggerss like Marilyn once was. She was very emotional and at the time the Host and Moderator were letting everything flow. They should have told her to tone and tune it down. But they did not, in those days, so they have to take partial responsibility. And we can all see they are doing a much better job and hostility is down very significantly. Once they control the Gang of Five whose focus is on the messengers instead of their message we will see a very good blog site. When did Joe go to the library, do some research, and write an insightful and enlightening letter! Never! He lives to attack messengers and for his daily rise! No one should be on these blogs day and night 365 days a year like Joe. What can you accomplish in your life if you are on 11 threads attacking everyone. He can always be found on all 10 Main Page threads and which ever Napergate Thread was most recently archived.

While this blog site is excellent, it is nowhere close to the effectiveness of those 22,000 circulation Napergate ads distributed in the Naperville Sun to 80,000 residents. In those days everyone read the Naperville Sun in town. Maybe only half the people read it now, but my instincts tell me it is still 10 times as powerful as this blog site.

Jim and Ted can really make a difference. Right now they hold all the cards. They could be almost as effective as the Napergate Man if they decided to let loose. Not as effective becasue he had a very unusual grass roots movement that was deeply entrenched in subdvisions.

It is never mentioned but he had apartment complexes and condomonium complexes like Olive Trees and Quail Ridge involved too. You can really motivate anyone if you explain yourself properly. When people understand that their wallets are being pick pocketed, they become outraged! This is a huge motivating factor! Motivation leads to ACTION! All learned from the Napergate Man so I want to give credit where credit is due!

We are being pickpocted by City Officials to keep their buddies downtown profitable on our backs. Many of those buildings downtown our owned by establishment folks. Imagine the huge Promenade Building does not own one parking spot. The city should have forced them to build an underground garage as in Chicago for their parking.
Instead they allowed them to make a windfall profit, while we taxpayers are footing the parking bill for the landlords who are worth 50 to 100 million dollars. They can charge 50 dollar per squar foot in rent because of all the fringe beneifts the city provides them. Easily twice the rent anywhere else in Naperville.

Even the rents on Bailey Rd. which is only a mile and a half to at most 2 miles south of downtown is less than half of downtown rents. No fringe benefit down there paid by taxpayers. Tenants there pay for their own parking at 2 dollars per square foot per year from their hard earned profit and not sales tax collected from the resident. Obviously my information was learned from the Napergate Man who owns a plaza on Bailey Rd!

People also must understand a paved parking lot is 10 times as cheap to build as a high rise deck. So imagine what these downtown retailers would have to pay for this parking it they truly footed the cost. It would be horrendous! And guess who has foot all the cost this far...yes, you the residential homeowner who is tyring to make ends meet and get your kids in college.

I have no clue why Mayor George Pradel is willing to plow snow at 25 bucks an hour at 4am in the morning so he can subsidize Jimmy ot the tune of 40k of profit just from his balcony. He has an inside too! Maybe City Officials just don't get it if there is no NAPERGATE AD hitting them in the face once in a while! Let us hope they are reading these blog sites and we can go thru to them like the Napergate Man got thru to them occassionally. He did not always get thru to them either. One time he ran one Napergate ad a record 4 times but he never got trough. It was like banging on a concrete underground bomb shelter.

Jimmy's can make a smaller profit margin and be very profitable. He does not need to be subsidized. He probably laughs at the stupidity of City Officials every time he drops his deposit at the bank!

I wish I would have worked a little harder with the Napergate Man to end establishment rule. He got so close! He needed one more council member and this corruption would have been for the history books.

Because myself and many others did not go all out with the Napergate Man, we may have to start all over again to get a grass roots movement going like the one he had. But honestly, I feel the Napergate Ads were the fuel for the massive success of his grass roots deeply entrenched movement. He used them to get people upset and motivated. He got people angry at the establishment! Getting angry is a big motivater.

I am sure his anger at City Officials is what MOTIVATED him to the enormous and unbelievable high levels he was motiviated at! They messed with his livelihood and his ability to feed his family when they revoked his liquor licenses. Who would not be motivated to fight back? Everyone would!

The difference between the Napergate Man and everyone else is he knew how to fight back ferociously and tactfully. He was not afraid!
He was not going to hold back anyting. He was so upset, I doubt he could even hold back his libel. It took many attorneys and Sun Officials to control his libel and slander.

I am sure when he first got started he did not understand libel like most of us do not. But with time, he began to understand.

Ironically, all the libel his attorneys, Sun Attorneys and Sun Officials removed from his ads, made his Napergate ads very effective and appealing to the populance masses.

It was a struggle to get those ads in the Sun. Sometimes I reviewed them to help him out as many other residents did. From time of review to publication could easily be a week or two. Remember all these ads had to go to Copely Headquartes in California for one final review. If they came back with one correction that would be a 2 day delay.

Libeling in a Print Editions seems to be much more serious than libeling on a blog site. Brenda is never going to get a penny even if she was libeled on the library thread. As far as the courts are concerned she is a non-human being! She can not sue. AS some are saying she could be a potted plant or an invention of Quick Question. That guy was a pathological liar who invented and fabricated scenarios. Police Officer sawed right thur him like a knife thru butter. That guy is a sharp police officer and I must say impressed me. I was also very impressed with Mrs. of the Police Officer because she could debate without attacking like the GANG OF FIVE.

She was bringing a lot of respect and understanding to the NPD. It is too bad Chief David Dial probably muzzled and silenced her. He would have been wiser to muzzle the Gang of 5 and make sure nothing is being leaked from that department to residents like Joe.

OK, Kevin! I came on to thank you for your efforts and got carried away. I hope you set an example to the 300-500 Napergatians sympathisers and supporters on this blog site. The Napergate Man did not have membership in his organization. He had supporters who were all voluntary. Anybody could participate and help or quit at any time. The Napergate Movement was a great movement and I believe from what I am reading here it is alive and people want to continue with its flourishment and development.

Anyway once again I hope Host Ted and Moderator Jim give us an assist with our fight against the establishment. I am sure they and other Sun Empolyees also subsidize Jimmy's unknowingly. They are being pick pocketed like the rest of us. Once they realize it, I suspect they wll say "enough is enough" and join us in our struggle and give us some desperately needed INK. Let us hope it is sooner than later. Once those high rise garages are built it is all over. I hope they ACT sometime before that.

Many thanks to Sun Officials for allowing us to use their blog site to motivate not only bloggers but themselves!

You all have a nice evening!!!

Kevin,

Congrats on rolling up your sleeves and doing something about it.

Randy:

11. I think some people on this blog such as Joe take the other view point for their egos and rises. That is preventing the Napergatians from going for the CHOKEHOLD that the Napergate Man use to go for, to end the kind of nonsense that is going on in this town.

There's partial truth in here. I will sometimes take another side just to see if the person is true in their point of view and have actually thought it through. The ones that act astonished that not everyone agrees with them and have to resort to name calling are the shallow ones with no conviction or belief in what they are saying, in my opinion. The true ones can make their point and even agree to disagree without resorting to that childish behavior of name calling.

Again, Kevin.. good job!

I just wanted to follow up on my charge to roll up your sleeves and get involved...I completed and emailed an application today for a spot on one of the boards that I was interested in through the city. I received an email back from one of Mayor Pradel's assistants within a couple of hours of sending mine that there is in fact an opening on one of the three boards I was interested in and she is sending my application up to Mayor Pradel to look at for that spot. It was an easy process and they are looking for people to volunteer. This is a direct quote from the email I received back today..."We are thrilled that residents volunteer their time to serve on Boards and Commissions".

The board I am interested in meets quarterly at 7:30 a.m. So it is not a huge time commitment, but it will get me involved in the city and it will give me a better understanding on how things are run. I just wanted to show everyone just how easy this really is. I hope others who have some free time and are interested in volunteering their time get involved, you can make a difference if you do.

Ken
"Now why would they want people to be able to access the downtown area in huge numbers? Could it be the massive sales tax they receive from those businesses?"

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Ken,

Actually, the City has acknowledged in open forums that the Downtown is a net negative on taxes and is viewed as an amenity like a park. AKA a LOOSER.

When I was in school, they taught us that businesses flock to endeavors that are high profit. The downtown is high profit for the commercial developers and the restaurants, not for the city. It does create jobs, so running it at break even would make more sense.

The homeowners buying the commercial developers parking spaces at $40K a pop makes no sense at all, it is an income transfer and a subsidy. Both big Republican no no’s, unless it’s politically well connected Naperville people reaping the benefits.

The head of the restaurant owners has been out in front in the City Council meetings trolling for support for the Library Deck. The stated need is to accommodate the two martini lunch crowd, not the families the use the Library.

All of this played out in numerous City Council meetings that were televised.

Get ready to read books in the Library complimented with the smell of urine wafting through the air while listening to the sound of screeching tires as valets rush cars back to their owners, thus earning a big tip.

Hope your kid isn't crossing the ramp on their way from school as the cars blast out of the parking deck.

Speaking of facts, is there any concrete proof of Jimmy's supposed $80,000 per weekend patio profit? That would take almost 2,300 customers per weekend spending $35 per person. Seems unlikely to me, but I may be wrong and will admit it if I see concrete proof instead of hearsay. Either way, I doubt that business or any other asked for the parking decks. It was a decision made by Naperville to keep their downtown busy.

____________________________________________________________________

Ken,

Yes there is! It was stated by Jimmy's owner's son before owners and employees of the 150 liguor licensees at City Hall last April.
I was not there but was told by numerous people in the liquor business who were in disbelief as you are.

He did not say profit! He said sales meaning revenue. That is a big difference!

Jimmy's does a very good business in the summmer that starts at 11am and goes till 2am. They do restaurant early and convert to night club late night.

If they turn their tables 5-6 times per day for the 2 day weekend they got the numbers.

I hope these facts help you.

One reason Napergatians don't do and the Napegate Man always preached not to do is LIE. He taught us lies will come BACK and BITE YOU if you DO!

That is obvious. I will ask everyone to please not lie so we can have a healthy debate and solve serious problems.

Thanks!

So Randy, since you imply that you are speaking for the napergate man, are you also implying that he approves of attacking his opponents with name calling instead of facts? He would approve of you calling me and my fellow Gang of Five members hopeless losers just because we disagree on some points? As usual, especially for the cult members, if you can't attack the message, attack the messenger.

Speaking of facts, is there any concrete proof of Jimmy's supposed $80,000 per weekend patio profit? That would take almost 2,300 customers per weekend spending $35 per person. Seems unlikely to me, but I may be wrong and will admit it if I see concrete proof instead of hearsay. Either way, I doubt that business or any other asked for the parking decks. It was a decision made by Naperville to keep their downtown busy.

Now why would they want people to be able to access the downtown area in huge numbers? Could it be the massive sales tax they receive from those businesses? Anyone who thinks sales taxes from businesses aren't important just has to look at the low taxes in Schaumburg because of the Woodfield mall. If they were not receiving enough taxes to justify the parking decks, they would not have been built. Obviously they don't expect them to be paid off in a couple of years which is why they take out long term bonds for those kind of projects. As much as I disagree with the building of those decks, it must be paying off as they want to keep building them.

By the way, Randy, I wouldn't be to proud of the posters here until they get out from behind their keyboards and actually go out and do something about it...just like your old friend did.

This message approved by a member of the Gang of Five.

RANDY wrote,
"1.It is almost 100% subsidized by the RESIDENTIAL TAXPAYERS.
With all due respect to T.B., he is missing the point that this 1.5% sales tax is being added to the restaurant bill after all is done and said. It is a sales tax that the resident pays after being already socked for a subsidy on his home real estate tax bill."

Actually, the cost would be paid by ALL customers, not just Naperville residents. Moreover, while we might very well tell the restaurant owners to pay the total cost of parking garages out of their own pockets, they are just going to pass these costs on to their customers in the form of higher prices. Either way the customer pays.

And

"15. I know this sounds harsh, but I feel T.B.s defending of non-person Brenda was to give him a RISE. T.B. while articulating well, is following for this RISE DISEASE instead of going for the jugular."

T.B.'s comments about the Brenda situation were spot on. She was the only person to post in favor of the parking deck. Rather than engage in respectful debate with her on the issue, several Napergatians chose to assault her character. When T.B., who AGREED with the Napergatians on the parking deck, rose to Brenda's defense, the Napergatians turned on him, accused him of attacking the Napergate Man, and spoke in support of those who attacked Brenda.

T.B. and I both have points of agreement with you Napergatians on at least some of your issues. But I think I speak for both us when I say that neither of us is encouraged to make common cause with you when you are so quick to attack anyone who dares to disagree. I've never met Basim Esmail, but if he is the man Napergatians make him out to be, I highly doubt that he approves of this behavior, either.

Laura –

The article you’re looking for is probably “Business in Naperville not hurting as badly as rest of nation” published by the Sun on March 30th.

You can find it in the Sun’s archives (napersun.com, archives, and search under keyword “Tango”), but its about $3 for the entire article. This appears to be the only article related to retail sales in the Sun during the last six months which mentions the word Tango.

Good luck.

T.B.

OK Folks,

Since I knew the Napergate Man very personally for about 10 years when he was my neighbor at Olive Trees, I think I could safely say he would be outraged with al this high rise subsidized parking.

HERE ARE SOME OF MY REASONS:

1.It is almost 100% subsidized by the RESIDENTIAL TAXPAYERS.
With all due respect to T.B., he is missing the point that this 1.5% sales tax is being added to the restaurant bill after all is done and said. It is a sales tax that the resident pays after being already socked for a subsidy on his home real estate tax bill.

2. In essence the Residential Taxpayer is being soaked twice while Jimmy's heads to the bank with bags of dough at our expense.

3. Yes, the 80,000 being done on the balcony per weekend is great for Jimmy's. But he gets to add sales tax of .0825% or 6,600 dollars to our bills which is not going to the garages. Soon he will be able to add another .015% to the bill or 1200 more as T.B. correctly computed that will be going to the garages.

4. T.B. gave Jimmy's credit for this 1200 dollar contribution to the parking decks. With all due respect, stealing T.B. famous words, this money is not from Jimmy's but from residential homeowners who are dining or eating at his establishment.

5. If Jimmy's was really contributing to the parking garages it would come from the 80,000 before tax and not the 86,600 or soon to be $87,800 dollar amount when the sale tax finally becomes .0975%...ouuuuchhhh!!!! From our pockets, not Jimmy's! And to this date, he has paid nothing and nothing has even been collected from the diners there as this new tax is not into effect yet... The homeowners are being bathed with this horrendous expense!

6. A restaurant/bar like Jimmy's has a cost of food/alcohol of less than 25% to retail sales. Basically they have 60,000 in the gross profit margin of which maybe 50% is profit and 25% is for expenses such as employee labor, electricity, heat, insurance etc.

7.So Jimmy's is making a huge profit of approximately $40,000(at least $20-30k if food and alcohol prices rose significantly as I have been hearing and they did not pass them on) dollars on this balcony per weekend and contributing not a penny to this massive cost of $50,000,000 for these 3 parking decks not counting maintenance and interest expense, which could add another $50,000,000. Let's see a contribution to the parkng garages coming from that beef of 40k at Jimmy's to get some fairness in this Establishment Town that favors their buddies instead of the hard working and tax paying Naperville and Napergatian residents.

8.To add insult to injury, we are paying for Jimmy's expenses, while he took his profit and built another million dollar location called Tessa or something like that on Jefferson...the inequities in this town are just insane. It is easy to understand why the Napergate Man let city officials have it for 20 years. And they did not learn a single thing...back to their old habits of BUSINESS AS USUAL.

9.I think you mean well T.B. Sometimes you feel you need to present the other view such as the city's to bring some fairness to the debate. But what you are doing is very counterproductive. Let the Napergatians go for the jugular as it will help us all stop this nonsense. Trust me T.B., you are subsidizing Jimmy's BIG TIME, if you live in this town, and he is getting unfairly rich at your expense and mine.

10.This Napergate Open Forum is very serious. It should not be used for the sake of debating just to take the other viewpoint. Take it if you believe in it from your heart. Take it if you have researched it! Take it if it makes sense to you! Take it if sounds logical! But please don't take it purely for the sake of a RISE created by an argument that may bring you or your handle some name recognition

11. I think some people on this blog such as Joe take the other view point for their egos and rises. That is preventing the Napergatians from going for the CHOKEHOLD that the Napergate Man use to go for, to end the kind of nonsense that is going on in this town.

12. We do need a little more support from the Moderator and Host to prevent arguments that are for the purpose of getting rises and serve no other purpose.

13. I, in no way think T.B., is the part of this GANG OF FIVE. He articulates well but I believe he takes opposing views just so he can make a point. Maybe he does have a subconscious tendency to get a rise...not sure!!!

14. I think most Napergatians see T.B. as intelligent and would like to join forces with him in putting this CHOKEHOLD on the city especially in relation to this downtown parking fiasco. Wasting time defending Brenda is not helpful. I agree with the blogger that stated Brenda was a possible creation of Quick Question and not a real person. Any real person who is not handicapped would not mind walking a 100ft across the bridge to park in City Hall which has a few hundred parking spots the library patrons can use. The handicapped have special parking right by the entrances.

15. I know this sounds harsh, but I feel T.B.s defending of non-person Brenda was to give him a RISE. T.B. while articulating well, is following for this RISE DISEASE instead of going for the jugular.

16. The Napergate Man never went for personal notoriety. He actually hated it. That is why he called himself the "Owner of Extra Value Liquors." He was required by the Naperville Sun to identify himself as the author and payer of those Napergate Ads in his ads. If he was not, he probably would have ran his ads as ANONYMOUS to keep people focused.

17. All of us need to focus better. The GANG OF FIVE are completely hopeless and should be ignored by all Bloggers. Don't give them their damn rises and they will go to the school threads and start fights and arguments. They don't care about any issue except for the issue of rises.

18. I have been very impressed with Kevin as of late. He has really evolved into my favorite blogger because of his level headedness, wisdom, desire to build a grassroots movement, and focus on the issues. Knowing what I know about the Napergate Man, he would probably vote Kevin his FAVORITE BLOGGER.

19.I can see T.B. becoming another Kevin who both sides like. He just has to think about what he is saying and attempting to do. He also needs to stop defending City Officials and City Police. Even if they may be right, let them come out and say they are right. Force them to talk to us. The Napergate Man would bring City Official and Police out every 5th or 6tt Napergate ad when they could not take the heat and shame he brought on and upon them.

20.Let us do the same here. I think you believe in what we believe in T.B., especially concerning waste of taxpayer money for parking decks and much police overtime. Join us in going for the jugular and putting a choke hold on our officials until they say they had enough and promise to straighten out. We can do it, T.B.! You are like a small leak that we need to plug. The GANG OF FIVE are a bunch of losers who no one is paying attention too.

I am shocked with all the newcomers in the last week to this blog. I no longer know who is who anymore. And to the best of my knowledge they are ALL siding with the Napergatians. Why do you think that is. T.B.? No one is buying into the City's point of view because it is corrupt and does not hold water under scrutiny. Look at how crystal clear the Jimmy's example is to all of us. And no offense to Jimmy's, we are just using him as an example, as one of the 20 establishments that are similar. I feel the same about all 20 similar places, but by personalizing sometimes the message gets across nuch better.

Again, it is not Jimmy's fault that our City Officials, are unfair.
Obviously our City Officials either are unfair, uneducated, or doing this on purpose because of some benefit to someone. Maybe just to get the votes of the restaurnant owners and their numerous employees.

How intelligent can City Hall be if the leader, Mr. Bob Marshall, does not even have the common sense to estimate the cost of a 5 year Napergat Trial. At least let the ball fall somewhere in the ball park. This is the same guy that is in charge of these 3 garages. Does anyone really think, Mr. Marshall, can comprehend the cost of these garages and how it impacts citizens and businesses.

Unless, I am confused, Mr. Marshall, rose thru the ranks of the NPD. He specialized in crime and law and order. Where did he get his experience for his current position? Is he qualified to make these decisions? What are his credentials? Please, Naperville Sun, help us a little!!!

WE REALLY HAVE A MESS ON OUR HANDS THAT IS NOW BEGINNING TO RIVAL THE MESS WE HAD ON OUR HANDS DURING THE NAPERGATE ERA! IT IS FRIGHTENING THAT THIS MESS WOULD RETURN JUST A FEW YEARS AFTER THE NAPERGATE MAN RETIRED AND RELINQUISHED HIS WATCH DOG DUTIES TO WHOMEVER IS WILLING TO GRAB THEM. I AM TICKLED TO DEATH TO SEE SO MANY MINI-NAPERGATE MEN AND WOMEN DOING WHAT THEY CAN IN THEIR ON SMALL WAYS TO TACKLE THE MESS WE HAVE AT CITY HALL AND THE POLICE DEPT! KEEP TRUCKING ALONG AND YOU WILL SEE RESULTS! NEVER GIVE UP!

I SERIOUSLY DOUBT THE NAPERGATE MAN WAS HALF AS EFFECTIVE AS THE NAPERGATIANS ARE AT THIS 4 MONTH POINT OF BLOGGING ON THE NAPERGATE LINKS. IT TOOK HIM AT LEAST 4 YEARS TO REACH THE EFFECTIVENESS YOU HAVE ALL REACHED IN 4 SHORT MONTHS. YOU GUYS ARE ALL REALLY DOING GREAT! KEEP UP THE EXCELLENT WORK!

I found this informative and relevant post on another thread. Hopefuly the moderator will let me post it here.

After reading both threads today, I just have to wonder if we need even one additional parking deck, let alone 3 addtional parking decks that are really mostly being financed and subsidized by the taxpayer.

If anyone can direct me to the article Anonymous mentions in his post I would love to read it. Thanks, Moderator, for your consideration to allow me to cross post as I thought there was serious relevance. As I stated, I am not totally familiar with all the rules as I am relatively new but I did catch something on the death thread that I did not fully comprehend.

Here is the post from the other thread:

____________________________________________________________________

By Anonymous and Downtown on April 16, 2008 9:42 AM
According to the SUN, business in the downtown restaurants is off by approximately 50% year to year. The ready availability of parking spaces and seats in the restaurants on weekend nights would seem to support the Sun’s article.

Without taking a survey, it is fair to assume that the substantial private and public debt that has been run-up over the years and the inflated cost of government when combined with our major employers moving high paying jobs out of Naperville is taking its toll on the secondary economy, restaurants.

While some restaurant owners may associate ear shattering music with the good old days, it is a false connection.

The right question to ask is "why are our high-tech and petrochemical employers moving jobs out of Naperville?" Could it be the absurd inflation of property tax bills which is partially caused by the never ending subsidized parking for the restaurants?

The sooner the downtown commercial property owners and businesses get their snouts out of the city's and homeowners' purses, the better off we will all be.

If the City Council wants to help the restaurants, they should be meeting with our major employers and asking them why they are leaving Naperville.

____________________________________________________________________

Thanks in advance for allowing to cross post threads if in fact you did allow me!

This post seemed very relative to the ongoing debate. By the way, I agree with Anonymous, fully, who ever he may be. Wish he dropped a name so we can get to know him/her gradually as he/she seems right on the money just like the Napergate Man was right on the money. Kudos to you Anonymous for this very well wrtten piece! I really loved it! It is so truthful! Thanks again to Anonymous and the Moderator! And of course, as usual, Host Ted!

Kevin –

I think your post is the best I’ve seen yet from a Napergatian and I’m not even referring to your comments about me.

Thanks for putting out the call. Talk is cheap and not everyone will carry the water for you. Action is needed for the Napergatians to get what they’re after.

**********

Nancy –

While appreciating your point of view, you fail to take into account:

1. Not all restaurants are like Jimmy where I would assume most profits come during the warm-weather.
2. Many of the restaurants downtown have a much more up-scale menu than Jimmy’s (food and beverage), which would increase the tax paid.
3. Non-food retailers are still getting a free ride (lump in other free-riders such as the Park District and NCC, too).
4. It makes good economic sense for the city to support business of all kinds in the downtown area.

The bottom line with this situation, though, is demand. Where is the demand for these new parking decks? I don’t see it. I’ve never left downtown for lack of parking. But if the demand were there, I would support limited taxpayer funding for new parking.

T.B.

When I think about the irony of this whole thing it is almost beyond comprehension. With maybe 200 subdivisions in Naperville, they chose the subdivision where the Napergate Man is a resident to experiment with the concept of commercialization of a subdivision. Didn't City Officials even know where this guy lived to attack his subdivision after attacking his liquor licenses....dah!!! Just for the record Spring Green was in Pembroke Commons where the Napergate Man lives.

====================================================================

Lilian,
The above paragraph did catch my eye! It does make you wonder if the right lobe of the brain knows what the left lobe of the brain is doing with many of our City Officials.

They were just hit with 30-35 Napergate ads about his liquor cases..and they come back for more. I am guessing the Napergate Man ran about 10-15 additional Napergate Ads to save his subdivision and several others that adjoined the SW Gate Property besides the Spring Green Property. They seemed to want a battle of revenge right in his backyard. Could it just be a conincidence?

Maybe these City Officials were getting a Joe like rises from the attention they were given in the Napergate ads...albiet negative attention...but it was nevertheless attention...and some people do thrive on attention be it negative or positive. Maybe they went there knowing he would fight and they would continue getting their Joe like rises.

OK, that was said for comedy purposes!

But on a serious note, why would they experiment there with 200 hundred other subdivisions available for such a purpose. One could say it was Brestal and not the City Officials who went there. But we all know they are one and the same and work hand in glove. If the City told Brestal to back off, he would back off. Apparently, they did not want him to back off. All those discussions you see between Brestal and the City Council are for show and tell. Brestal already knows the outcome before he steps into chambers.

He just wants to show up on cable TV for the public consumption effect that he had to work hard to get something approved when the ACE WAS IN THE HOLE before he ever swung!

Lilian, I agree with you that there a lot more people staying the course and not getting involved with the name calling that goes on here...however enough of it goes on that it does distract from the point sometimes. Normally, when I read an entry that has personal attacks in it, I stop reading it and move on to the next entry. I choose not to get involved with it and I don't like to read it regardless of what side it comes from. I understand emotion does get the best of people sometimes, but we do choose what we read and we do choose what we respond too on this thread.

There are a lot more good things going on here than bad, but unfortunately the bad sometimes gets more attention than the good, but we are the ones to blame for that as we give into it and respond to it...a good example of this is it takes about 15-20 minutes into a news show on any given night before a positive story appears...I have actually timed it for about a week straight rotating between Channel 2, 5 and 7 because I could not believe it once I started focusing on it. That is the world we live in, but we have choices and we can choose not to get involved with it...that is what I choose. I actually get my news from reading papers and the Internet...that way I choose my flow of information to a certain point. I know it took the Napergate Man a long time to get things started, but with the world we live in today where news happens in seconds...we can move things forward by doing what the one Napergatian did, meet with the people in charge and start spreading the message. That is how the message moves faster...this thread is a big help as it is a forum for us to spread our message. So don't get distracted by the small number of people who want to get a raise out of us...answer their questions, show them the facts and move on...I guess my quote of the day is..."stay on message and stay the course". I hope that makes sense.

To be fair to Jimmy's and the other downtown businesses, they provide jobs (albeit, mostly low-paying jobs), and convenient services to residents, so their impact on the community is not measured in sales taxes alone. I think a case can sometimes be made for taxpayers to foot part of the bill for parking lots and structures in densely developed areas like downtown Naperville.

My argument against the library parking deck is that it is simply not needed at this time. I have never not been able to find a parking spot downtown. It IS often hard to find a spot on the street or in a surface lot, but there always seems to be space in the existing parking structures. I wonder if those who do complain about the difficulty of parking there are really just objecting to having to park a block or two from their destination? If so, the library parking deck won't solve their problem unless their destination is the library.

Kevin,
Very well said! You seem to be the wise man amongst us who brings sanity where there is no sanity.

I would just like to point out that the Napergatians articulate in 99% of the content of their posts and may strike back in 1% as Mickie did to Joe after having to read his attacks for a month or two. In my opinion, maybe justified.

But if you read about the GANG OF FIVE, and I agree with you T.B. should not be part of that group, all they do is attack the messenger. Napergatians get emotional at times and lose it as Mickie lost it and had to lower herself even to mention Joe.

But the GANG OF FIVE which includes Joe, Ken, SNT, RJ, and an occasional part-time or substitute such as Quick Question or d.bone, is always on the attack. 99% of what they do involves attacking the messenger. They never do any research, articulate and for the most part except for Ken can't put together a paragraph

Than Napergatians are really here to articulate and win support from other residents. They want to watch our taxpayers dollars just like the Napergate Man did. They want to control police abuse just as the Napergate Man did. They want to rid of us police overtime just like the Napergate Man did and as DF is currently doing!

Their strategy is successful because they do come up with facts such as from Mickie, Diana, Ryan, Liebert, Ameena, Randy, Melissa and umpteen others. Last night we hear the Napergatains met with Ms. Patti Roberts. Someone even pointed out Ted's library thread which she did not even know existed. How in tune can this lady be if she has not even read Jim's Blogs?

It is obvious the Napergatians are trying to jointly fill the big shoes of their leader and they should be allowed. This forum really has became their new NAPERGATE AD. What is wrong with that as long as the Naperville Sun does not think they are getting a FREEBIE. I don't think they are! If anything the Napergate Man should never have been charged for all those Napergate ads since he was providing a public service. But that is water over the bridge as the expression goes. However, the money spent on those Napergate ads was money well spent.

Let us face it. Without those ads none of us would be here. Without those ads there would be no Napergatians! Without those as there would no Napergate Links on the Sun Blog Site! Without those ads there would be no Napergate Party! Without those ads there would be commercial developments inside of residential subdivision as almost happened to Huntington Estates and Pembroke Commons!

When I think about the irony of this whole thing it is almost beyond comprehension. With maybe 200 subdivisions in Naperville, they chose the subdivision where the Napergate Man is a resident to experiment with the concept of commercialization of a subdivision. Didn't City Officials even know where this guy lived to attack his subdivision after attacking his liquor licenses....dah!!! Just for the record Spring Green was in Pembroke Commons where the Napergate Man lives and I believe still lives since the rumors he retired in Arizona have been quashed. Huntington Estates is mentioned a lot because this gas station/commercial complex was going to be literally across the street from their gorgeous pond and pool.

Sorry to get off subject. I just wanted to come here to commend Mickie for that well written, insightful and eye-awakening article of late last night. I really appreciate the effort she put into it.

It is nice to see so many mini-Napergate Men and Women evolve on these blogs. I hope we get thousands more and I hope Host Ted and Moderator Jim continue to encourage this movement to prosper and flourish. It is desperately needed in Naperville since neither the Sun or Herald have any interest in this line of reporting.

Let us face it...it is the ONLY WATCH DOG group forcused on the City of Naperville and the NPD. It is independent unlike Internal Affairs which is controlled by Chief Dial. I am sure Chief Dial is going to issue a verdict against himself of any significance after he reviews himself, his officers, or his Department..lol! Last I heard he was not suicidal.

PS. I still would like to see the Sun got those missing FOIAs. No one can say Napergatians like Mickie, Ameena, Diana, and Randy are not doing their jobs with digging up information. If I recall correctly Randy dug up the missing Napergate V that was never published in the Naperville Sun to help Ameena with her book which I believe will reveal much of what we have never know about our government before. I guess she chose to save her research for her book which she is entitled to. I do miss her lengthy and informative posts! I guess we will have to wait! I wish she would come and tease us with a post or two once in a while so we can get a peek preview of what she is working on!

Kevin,

I agree with your 'charge'. People need to get out and DO something for what they want to stand up for or represent.

Anyone can find an excuse for not getting involved:

I don't have the money... Go convince someone who does.
I don't have the time... Make the time.
I won't make a difference... One thing is for certain, you will never make a difference if you never try.

The list goes on and on...

Ernie, pot meet kettle with your post.

T.B. and Mickie,

The Napergate Man can not control a dozen or two dozen Napergatians that can't seem to control themselves, anymore than City Hall can control Joe, Ken and SNT. In his ads he stayed focused and I also don't recall him ever attacking a caller or writer who responded to his ads. Since his ads were very upsetting, especially before the verdicts rolled in, to at least 20,000 Establishment Folks, I can not imagine the insults he must have gotten.

But we all know from reading his wonderful series he simply ignored the psychos who must have called to yell at him. Thank God Joe was working 18 hours a day in those days. He probably would have called the Napergate Man 20 times a day so no one else could get thru. To some extent, it is understandable why the Napergate Man chose to remain MASKED for 25 years. I guess to a great extent he is still MASKED!

It seems his only interest was to get his points across without distractions and he succeeded.

I agree with Mickie, T.B.! We should not be subsidizing downtown bars. It is obvious we are. That 1.5% you mention on the $80,000 revenue from the balcony at Jimmy's is only 1200 bucks per weekend. At 26 warm weekends, it is 31,200 dollar per year. It would take 641 years for Jimmy's to finance just the cost of the library deck at 20,000,000 dollars....assuming no loan and no interest on the loan!

If we had 20 Jimmy-like establishments downtown, it would take 32 years to finance the one library deck alone. What about the other 2 decks? And this is only financing the construction! What about the maintenance on these garages which would be at least equal the cost to build, over 32 years? What about the interest expense to finance the 20,000,000 cost? That could also equal the cost to build over 32 years.

Anyway you slice it the TAXPAYERS ARE GETTING SCREWED ROYALLY!

And the City Council is either not aware or does not care.

Excellent analysis, Mickie! Sorry T.B., but you need to return to the drawing table and revisit your inadequate analysis.

I get very conflicted with the way the conversation goes here on these threads sometimes...I have said this before...the reason why I have aligned myself with the Napergatians is because I believe in their core mission...which I believe to be is for everyone to be treated the same in this town regardless of your stature and class and to act as a watchdog group over how money is spent in this town...when I say "money" I mean our tax dollars. So the conflict for me comes in when I read the numerous amounts of personal attacks that are thrown back and forth on the various threads. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't give you the right to call them a name. That goes for both sides of the issue. I think some of the best debate goes on here when it is respectful and non-emotional. I believe in facts and I believe in being civil when debating. I try my best not to get emotional and not to personally attack someone...if I ever do I would apologize as I don't believe that is how you get things done or even how you get people to join your cause.

Regarding the Gang of Five, actually I would not include TB in there as I have seen enough of his entries to know that he does a good job explaining his views without using personal attacks most of the time, I think it is fine that they continue to question what this movement is all about. Do I agree with their methods? Not all of the time, but they do raise good questions from time to time and they are questions that should be asked and they keep us on our toes. I believe firmly in the statement...you pick and choose your battles. I think there are bigger fish to fry and truly if we want to take this movement from words to actions...we need to get involved. I put out a charge a couple of days ago about joining the various committees and boards this city has to offer. Someone said (sorry I can't remember their name at this time) that it takes money to make this all happen, I agree with that to a point...but getting involved and being influential in that capacity is also a part of making things happen. I have seen that first hand in my personal experiences of being involved in this city. I think this city needs more people in a watchdog role and what better way to do that then to get involved. I believe money is only one part of the equation, there are other ways to make a positive impact on this city. Let's roll up our sleeves and get involved...

Mr. Moderator,

Have you ever met anyone in your life as SELF-CENTERED as Joe. Mickie writes a great presentation about parking dowtown and describes a visit with Ms. Patti Roberts, Executive Director, of the Downtown Naperville Alliance....and Joe wants to talk about HIMSELF.

Goodness Gracious! Can you put Joe on your FRONT PAGE for one edition to see if this will help him get over his hunger for his 15 minutes of fame.

Great Job, Mikcie! The 99.99% not about Joe was awesome. Too bad Joe ignored what you said except as it pertains to HIM...lol!

Mickie has been gone for a month and a half from bloggin and Joe accuses her with being a "classic peronal attacker."

Joe has been attacking everyone on all threads for the last month about 10-20 times a day and he is a SAINT! Enough said!

Could you please ask Joe to stay on topic, Mr. Moderator, and maybe go watch a "classic old movie" to get his thrills. He does seem to be stuck in reverse with no hope of moving forward!

Thanks...

Mickie,

Nice to see you keep the same low standards of personal attacks that your 'friends' do.

Joe is a very bad example of someone you want to be like or mimic. You have potential T.B. Joe has no potential. He has no life. You took a vacation T.B. You obviously have a life.

Then, right after "focus on the issues and not the non-existing personalities "...

Classic form. This is why you constantly turn people away from your group and will continue to do so because it seems to be a common personality trait amongst you, to personally attack anyone who disagrees with you and then attempting to claim the high road immediately afterwards of 'focusing on the issues'.

Everyone is well aware of the redirection and deflection game by now.

Mickie –

While I agree that restaurants and bars need more parking than a retail establishment, why should the retail stores get a free ride? Isn’t their free ride cutting into the taxpayers’ share of the garages? Or is putting down the Gap somehow less glamorous than putting down Jimmy’s?

By the way, don’t confuse the Culture Tax with the new 1.5% parking garage tax. The Culture Tax has nothing to due downtown parking. The Culture Tax pays for things like the Carillon (an allegedly “private” undertaking), various artistic projects (exactly what, I don’t know), and I believe also subsidizes the various fests for their police OT (like they don’t make enough money already?).

I also believe the downtown merchants pay into a fund for the previous two garages (Van Buren and Chicago). I don’t know the percentage, but I’m sure someone could find for us.

While I agree that the new tax will not cover the entire expense of the new garages, I don’t expect that to happen, either. I don’t see anything wrong with the city providing a situation (such as parking) in which its merchants will be as profitable as possible. This increases the sales taxes, the property taxes, and also ensures that the downtown area doesn’t languish and die. The city has to spend money to make money, just like a business does.

As for the library deck, did you ever doubt it would be built “rain or shine” after they passed the tax increase? When did you ever see a government body not spend money they were given by the legislature? The time to block the library deck was in the financing, not later as others had hoped. It’s a done deal now, I’m afraid.

Yes, maybe you’re right and only a few Napergatians are rude. But it’s hard to ignore the rude ones when you’re their target and NOBODY on their side EVER steps up and says “enough is enough”. Is that so hard?!? My high school English teacher Bro. Rule (God rest his sole) always quoted (I think…maybe paraphrased) Shakespeare when he said “silence is mute consent”. I think that applies to the Napergatian insults, too.

You say I should focus on bigger issues than Brenda’s hurt feelings, but I think the way Brenda was treated goes to the heart of how the (OK, some) Napergatians operate. Are you saying the end justifies the means? Surely Mr. Esmail wouldn’t want such a thing, right?

“She [Brenda] is entitled to her opinion but her opinion was way off.” Why? Because she didn’t follow everyone else’s direction? It’s more difficult to voice dissent than to join the crowd. I applaud Brenda for her convictions. I don’t want to see a library deck either, but I also know parking in that area is very difficult at times.

I appreciate the kind words, and reiterate my thoughts that I would support the Napergatian cause if facts supported it. However, I refuse to make the blind leap of faith and support something that spews such venom without facts. Good luck and thanks for keeping things on a respectable level.

T.B.

By T.B. on April 15, 2008 3:28 PM
But why just the restaurants? Don’t the other downtown merchants also benefit from the parking? Why are Jimmy’s patrons taxed, but not the Gap’s or Lucy’s, or Eddie Bauer’s? Just a thought.

T.B.,

I think I can answer you question. Restaurants and bars need much more parking per square foot than retailers.

A place the size of Jimmy's can squeeze 200 on the balcony and maybe another 200 or 300 inside. If every 2 people came in one vehicle, you would need parking for 200 to 250 vehicles.

A retailer like Gap's with similar square footage may only have 10 or 20 people shopping at the same time. Thus they would only need 5-10 parking spots.

So it is the restaurants and bars and not the retailers that create the need for these 5 story high garages.

Jimmy's and all the other restaurants/bar have had a free ride and been subsidized off your back, T.B., for a very long time. The extra 1% they pay now is paid by all restaurants/bars in Naperville..not just downtown restaurants. It is called a cultural tax. I found this out when I bought a pizza from a non-downtown restaurant and asked the owner why the sales tax was 8.25% instead of the new higher 7.25% sales tax other retailers charge and that was implemented April 1, 2008. He felt this extra 1% was being used to finance the parking downtown even though it was called cultural tax by name. He was upset...because he has to pay for his parking to his landlord through something called CAM(common Area Maintenance). His CAM was about $2.00 per square foot which is I believe the average non-downtown retailers pay to their landlords for parking while the downtown retailers and restaurants without parking are ALL BEING SUBSIDIZED!!! By us, the RESIDENTS!!!

This extra 1.5% tax which I believe has not been implemented yet, would never pay for even a small portion of the cost of the taxpayer funded garages. A close friend of mine met with Ms. Patti Roberts, Executive Director, of the Downtown Naperville Alliance, and she admitted to him that a substantial portion of the cost of these garages was coming from residents and not retailers.

My friend her met with her was a Napergatian. He was shocked to find out the extent we are subsidizing the downtown retailers. So don't feel sorry for Jimmy's. He is not making his profit the American Way. He is making it the Establishment Way which is unfair! That is why the Napergatians complain and get support. They do research and meet with people quietly. But no one listens. It is BUSINESS AS USUAL. Did you notice all those election posters in Jimmy's windows at election time? Favors are being done and favors are being returned.

I wish the Naperville Sun would investigate how the taxpayers are subsidizing the downtown businesses with their real estate taxes. A powerful article would expose the inequities and maybe, just maybe, somebody in City Hall would decide to take action to remedy the situation.

Finally, Ms. Roberts told my friend, the library deck is going to be built rain or shine. She said it will be last but it is coming. She claimed she had never seen that library thread, but my friend told her about it and how to find it. He told her the vote was 80-1 against it. She said it does not matter because in her opinion the businesses need it and it will happen. And she has the support of 6 Council Members that she is confident would never change their minds. She estimated the cost of the library deck was about $20,000,000 of which a substantial portion would be coming out of our residential pockets.

Maybe a few Napergatian are rude. T.B.! Which group of 500 will not have a dozen or two dozen rude people. I think you should ignore the 12 to 24 rude Napergatians and focus on the serious Napergate issues such as your paying to finance the expenses of the restaurants and bars downtown with a portion of your home real estate tax bill.

Are you telling me it is OK for Jimmy's to make a few million dollars while you have to pay $444.44 cents to finance just the library parking deck alone so he can have adequate parking. Do the math, T.B.? It is $20,000,000 divided by 45,000 households in Naperville for $444.44 per residence!

Liebert and Realtor Ryan gave us those numbers on the library thread. No one was listening! Look at where your focus is T.B.! On possibly Brenda's hurt feelings. She probably posted once and never looked back at the thread. Not everyone is like Joe monitoring the thread minute by minute. I am sure Brenda can defend herself. Plus why are you worrying about anyone posting anonymous. You can't smear the reputation of any blogger unless he is using his first and last real names.

I think you need to shift your focus and help us Napergatians attack the real issues and not be focused on hurting unknown personalities. In my opinion all that talk is about getting rises. Let us not be like Joe, T.B., and try to get a rise here by defending an unknown Brenda who can care less about each one of us having to come up with $444.44 to subsidize the library parking deck. She is entitled to her opinion but her opinion was way off. Maybe she was the daughter of Jimmy's trying to keep the windfall profits of her family going. She was not reasonable in her opinion and conclusions. When one person can disagree with 80 or a 100 other people, usually there is a missing screw or an agenda that person may not have or have!

I hope I have been helpful T.B.! You seem to be intelligent. I hope you can side with us on the issue of subsidizing the downtown restaurants with YOUR and OUR tax money.

Once again Ms. Roberts admitted this to my friend. He made an appointment and saw her. If you don't believe me make your appointment. Her direct line is 630 544 3372. Her fax line is 630 544 3373. Her e-mail address is proberts@naperville.net.

She has a lot of influence and is the force behind pushing the gullible council members to allow this outrageous and improper subsidy of multi-story high deck parking garages that is taking place right underneath our noses.

I urge you all to call her or write her. As you can see the Napergatians do work behind the scenes and don't blabber on these blogs all the time like certain bloggers such as Joe who has never done one thing for the City of Naperville.

A little more support from people like you, T.B., and we can start putting dents in City Hall. Don't worry about 12 idiots in any group! Do you think the Napergate Man worried about idiots? Don't you think he would have been stalled if he worried about every idiot that e-mailed him or contacted him. I bet he hung up the phone on them and proceeded to the mission at stake. He could have never accomplished what he accomplished if he let his tires get stuck in the mud spinning in place, as many of us bloggers do!

Joe is a very bad example of someone you want to be like or mimic. You have potential T.B. Joe has no potential. He has no life. You took a vacation T.B. You obviously have a life.

But focus on the issues and not the non-existing personalities who are all hiding behind screen names and can not hurt or be hurt. The Napergate Man is the only person who can be hurt on these threads. He is the only real person we have discussed on these Napergate Threads. Everyone of us is unreal and can not be hurt. Moderator Jim and Host Ted are real people but can control how much they can be hurt. They can post or delete any letter. They are in control as to what happens here! We have seen them refuse to post and in one case banish one blogger permanently! I am sure he deserved it since he is the only one to be banished all year long to the best of my knowledge! It is good to keep law and order on these threads.

You can never be hurt T.B. unless you reveal your real name and identity on this blog site. You could never sue anybody for what he said about you because no one knows who you are and your reputation can not be hurt. The only person who can hurt you is you...but only if you decided to identify yourself...but why would you really want to do that!

Let us focus on the issues and not be writing about Brenda who could even be a plant potted by Quick Question who does those kind of things for his rises. Notice how Quick Question disappeared after he was called out as being a fraud. So why waste your energy defending poor Brenda when Brenda could be nothing more than a real potted plant...lol!!!

Again, we have to learn from the Napergate Man. He provided his e-mail and phone number in those Napergate ads. Of course he got nasty e-mails and phone calls! But what did he do? Ignore them! I don't once remember the Napergate Man attacking one of his callers or e-mail writers. He stayed focused on City Hall and the City Police. He would not let anything distract him from his mission. That is why he succeeded. We can succeed to if we stay focused on the issues instead of each other, Brenda and Joe!

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PS. I once wrote a letter that was not published. I contacted the Moderator directly on his e-mail. He told me what was wrong. I fixed it and published it. I don't see why people have to call the Moderator and Host names if their letters don't get published. They are more than willing to help you if you contact them directly as I did. But usually contacting them here on this blog site will get a response and help fix the problem as we saw with Beilin this morning.

It turned out my last letter of a while back that I thought was free of libel, was full of libel. I guess I did not know what constituted libel. Thanks to Mr. Jim Lynch, I learned very quickly! Since this new letter has not yet been posted, I hope it is free from libel on the first attempt. Thanks again to the Moderator for his help on my last letter of a month or two ago. Time flies on these blogs. It seems like I was arguing Mr. Lynch just yesterday!

Nikki,

With all due respect, I believe the late Commander Dan Shanower (rest his soul) went to Naval Officer's Training/Candidate School well before the Napergate era started. There was no 'napergate movement' for Dan to support 'the cause' when he was living here. His bio indicated he graduated HS in 1979, college in 1983 then went into the Navy (Officer's school) after that; well prior to the Napergate movement/cause/era.

Were you perhaps referring to some other 'cause' that went on prior? If so, I'm sure people would be very interesting in knowing about it.

By Joe on April 15, 2008 12:13 PM
Beilen,

"...The other 4 council members did not run that year and that is how they escaped the WRATH of the Napergate Man who was trying to make all of them pay dearly for that Kangaroo Napergate Trial in which 12 false charges were brought and no one to this date has been held ACCOUNTABLE...unless they unfortunately passed away."
I was under the impression that the NGM was a peace loving man!

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Joe,
I believe Beilen was up all night writing letters based on the time of his letters. He is probably sleeping. It does not seem like he went to sleep until his letter was published. Apparently, he was having difficulties with posting.

Let me try to respond. I think the Napergate Man is a very peaceful man if no one rubs him the wrong way. The proof is current Mayor George Pradel. He adopted a strategy of respect and reconciliation with the Napergate Man. It worked. The Napergate Man would rather walk his dog and enjoy his kids before they get older. Or attend better to his businesses. My guess is he stopped running the Napergate ads out of respect for Mayor Pradel. Respect deserves and begets reciprocation!!!

But after the City Council put him through all they put him through, do you expect him to THANK them after his vindication. They never even apologized to him. The city never held anyone accountable. Therefore, I am not surprised he initially went after all the council members who authorized the millions to launch this huge battle in court against the Napergate Man. He felt he could live in peace if he could cut off the spigot of money flowing to attorneys in the Executive Session room hidden behind Chambers in City Hall.. Once he destroyed and sealed the spigot he was able to live in peace and be peaceful.

You are aware, Joe, that they now have repaired this spigot and funded attorneys again to the tune of $600,000 in the DF case at taxpayer expense! Hopefully we can turn the spigot off without the help of the Napergate Man this time around, before it erupts like those blown spigots in the oil fields of Kuwait after the first Iraq War! I am sure you remember those pictures on CNN news. You may not since you were working 18 hours a day in those years! Right, Joe!

Please don't change your impression of the Napergate Man, Joe! He is truly a peaceful man! If you are not sure ask Sergeant Greg Bell who probably felt guilty about what he did to him since he appears to have been a classy gentleman who took his arrest and incarceration in stride. Maybe somebody planted a seed in Sergeant Greg Bell's mind that the Napergate Man was not a nice man and who is not peaceful. Lets hope the Sergeant was misinformed by his fellow officers and just made a mistake that fateful evening.(sorry to steal your words Host Ted but you coined the evening just right). I know the Sun is watching for libel but I bet they are watching for plagiarism too...lol..!

Niemi –

First of all, welcome. The more the merrier and I really mean that no matter which side you come down on. I think this is a great forum to exchange ideas.

Hmmm, sneaky snake? Not sure what your basis is for that. I have said before and will say again, I have no problem with the Napergatians except for some flawed logic. My opinion is that their arguments seem to be based more on emotion than fact. If they could back up their theories with facts, I would be happy to support them.

I agree that the Napergatians have strong opinions and encourage people to buy into them; unfortunately, instead of debating in a social and congenial way some Napergatians like to bully and insult people who don’t agree with them. If you don’t believe me, just read through several of the threads such as the DF ones, the past Napergate ones, and the library thread. See the names they have called me, others who have disagreed with them, and especially some NPD officers. Check out the library thread and see how Brenda was insulted and belittled because she dared to voice her opinion. You get my point.

It’s funny that you say I follow the Napergatians, when in fact the statement I made about the 87th Street thread was that the thread was two solid days of Napergatian discussion instead of the murder, the response to it, and safety. I wasn’t following the Napergatians, I was trying to get away from them and post on a topic other than Napergate.

Many Napergatians have argued that the 87th Street thread died when their arguments were exiled here. Others have argued the thread had run it’s course and the culprits had been caught. I could also argue that after two days of Napergate debate, the people really interested in the murder had fled the thread. Maybe it was a combination of the three. Does it really matter?

Maybe you missed it on the other threads, but the private security issue has already been debated regarding police OT. Private security officers have no authority in the streets and I doubt anyone would really like Chicago Ave patrolled by people whose skills, professionalism, and qualifications are unknown. Hmmm…police officers or rent-a-cops…tough choice.

But that’s not to say the OT issue isn’t valid. I think every department in the city could cut some fat and I would hope they would.

As for Jimmy’s making a ton on a weekend, isn’t that the American dream? No, I don’t want to see that money made on the backs of taxpayers, but the downtown restaurants pay into a special fund for the “old” garages and the new garages will be funded in large part with the new 1.5% food and beverage tax. If that tax were already in place (I’m not sure of the timing), that Jimmy’s weekend would have just raised $1,200 for the new garages. I want the taxation to be fair, but I don’t begrudge anyone for making a buck (or several thousand).

But why just the restaurants? Don’t the other downtown merchants also benefit from the parking? Why are Jimmy’s patrons taxed, but not the Gap’s or Lucy’s, or Eddie Bauer’s? Just a thought.

**********

Joseph –

Please see above regarding the 87th Street thread. Believe it or not, there are people not interested in posts regarding Napergate. I really wanted to post to the 87th Street thread, but it was over-run with Napergate issues.

My comments to Ryan were regarding the hypocrisy of his post, both lamenting speculation and then doing it himself.

T.B.

Ken,
I understood Maureen, differently. I think she was saying she likes the looseness of the organization where everything is voluntary.

I think many people would make donations...but she was saying they should never be required. Any time you impose membership fees or force contributions, you reduce sympathizers and supporters. Someone is always going to misinterpret them. Someone is always going to allege financial impropriety. So it is best not to have fees and see if things can be handled voluntarily including money if it is needed.

But Maureen made a good point. You just can't collect money without having a leader, a treasurer, a secretary, and an attorney and who knows how to meet state and federal rules. So this may be new to the Napergatians since the Napergate Man took care of everything. Since he was unofficial, he did not have to file for political or tax-exempt status or whatever else is required by existing laws and ordinances.

So we are back to what comes first the egg or the chicken. I think they need a leader first to help them decide which way they want to go. Official or unofficial! Tax-exempt status or not! Register as a political organization or not register!

It is never that simple, Ken! I think the debate on this forum is educational and if all or a lot of questions are answered maybe one Napergatian will feel comfortable and grab the baton and run with it.

All this blog site made me realize is how hard this Napergate Man must have worked. But people have to remember it took him 10 years in the trenches and ditches before he got it together and became effective. He must have been recruiting leaders to help him while walking his dog. This activist Donna Rogers was a neighbor. The attorney who now heads the Naperville Homeowners Asssociation was a neighbor. I don't think it was all luck they all lived there. The Napergate Man just knew how to recruit, train and motivate people. He got people emotional and if they became emotional they embraced the cause with unusual passion which motivated them to excel. We still see the remnants of that massive passion he instilled in his supporters right here on this thread.

Just look at what he did with Commander Dan Shanower who worked for him for 3 years at his liquor store before rising to the top of Navy Intelligence in the Pentagon. Look at his friend Randy who rose to some high ranking position at ATT. Randy was the next door neighbor of the Napergate Man who worked with him to jointly mastermind the reversal of the ATT-MCI City Council vote after threatening an electronic war on City Hall! It seems like Randy would have rallied his fellow employees at ATT while the Napergate Man took public relations ads in the Naperville Sun to rally the rest of the residents. These may have been some of the ads that preceded Napergate and are referred to on this blog site as the non-Napergate political ads.

All these leaders could not have just been coincidences that happened to fall in the Napergate Man's lap out of the sky after a lightning storm!

It just shows you that any subdivision has the ability to do what Pembroke Commons did. Every subdivision has the necessary talent. They just need a leader like the Napergate Man to tap into their human resources.

So, Maureen, you are saying you and others are willing to be involved as long as you don't have to sign up anywhere, or spend any money. You seem to indicate that others have the same attitude as you. Basically, as long as someone else does everything, you are willing to vote for their candidate, and claim allegiance to a party that you are unwilling to support otherwise.

It is no wonder that with that kind of backing, the napergate man got out of politics.

By Ken on April 15, 2008 7:55 AM
Beilen, you and the rest of the cult say you need a leader with money. Why don't you spend your own? The cult is claiming anywhere from 5,000 to 10,000 members. If they really have that many members, a $10 donation per month from each would raise $50-100,000 a month. That would be plenty of money to fight the small town political fight you are facing.

____________________________________________________________________

Ken,
I don't think the Napergatian Movement ever claimed to have a membership list or took "roll call." They claimed to have sympathizers and supporters who signed petitions, rallied and voted.

I think one of the beauties of the Napergate Movement is a hat was never passed around and no one ever asked for money in that organization. That could have been one of the trademarks of success for that organization or movement.

Even if they were to change strategy and start collecting money for the purpose of continuing the Napergate Series, it is not that simple. They have to register with the State of Illinois as a non-profit and/or political organization. That District 204 group had to do that and I believe Attorney Shawn Collins and his law firm handled the work.

For them to get started in that direction they need a lawyer and a leader. That Richard Strawbridge Attorney could have been the guy but he appears to be running the Naperville Homeowners Association. He could have chose that course of the NHA as his path to the City Council which would be more politically correct. But it is another was to get a Napergatian on Council quietly. He is a die hard Napergatian and is no doubt one of the many lieutenants of the Napergate Man! Also a neighbor of the Napergate Man!

Don't underestimate this group. They snuck Darlene Senger on the Council too, thru the back door. As soon as they have 5 on the council, you will see them take the necessary action to bring the city in a new direction. In 1999, the city was caught off guard when they got 4 elected. The Napergatians are not going to catch the Establishment twice off guard in the same exact way. They have to change strategies in order to catch them off guard again. The Establishment has 100 times the money the Napergatians have. The Napergatians have one rich guy. The Establishment probably have 100 members with the wealth of the Napergate Man from land inheritance of their forefathers.

Some bloggers may be frustrated because they are not privy to the inner circles of the Napergate Party. Some things have to be done secretly to be successful.

The Napergate Man is simply to smart. When someone figures out his strategy, he is going to change it. I would not underestimate him. He is not going to tell all 7,000-10,000 of his supporters and sympathizers what he is up to. When you have that many, you also have a dozen spies. John Rosanova may have infiltrated that Napergate Organization and used them to get elected knowing they were the politically hot party at the time. They won't be used again like that!

The Napergate Man to the best of my knowledge never issued membership cards. He did not have membership fees. He never told anyone what to do. Everything was purely voluntary!

That was the beauty of the movement. Personally, I think it should stay that way. I hate to be invited to a political or church meeting and have someone put a hat in my face. I hope the Napergatians don't change their ways. They just need to practice patience and they will get the break they are looking for!

Beilen,

"...The other 4 council members did not run that year and that is how they escaped the WRATH of the Napergate Man who was trying to make all of them pay dearly for that Kangaroo Napergate Trial in which 12 false charges were brought and no one to this date has been held ACCOUNTABLE...unless they unfortunately passed away."

I was under the impression that the NGM was a peace loving man. All this talk about WRATH and retribution is giving people a different opinion now. Is that your intent?

Moderator Jim,

Thanks for publishing my post. As you can see I initially submitted at 6:42am to your blog site. It must have been a computer glitch at most likely your end. I guess you guys must have a lot of traffic flowing into your busy blog site that your server is unable to handle. Time to buy a larger and more powerful server to keep up with your heavy traffic on your very successful site!

Have a good day! And thanks again!

Moderator Jim,
I deleted the sensitive gray area portions and made some substantial and significant improvements. Please reconsider for posting! Thanks!

Best Regards,
Beilen

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By Beilen on April 15, 2008 6:42 AM
Kevin,

That was a very insightful and enlightening post that you wrote. The Napegate Man ran the Napergate Movement like a corporate structure. He worked for 2 Fortune 500 companies before moving to Naperville based on what I read on this blog and must have learned something.

He seemed to have 12 Vice Presidents he appointed that helped him out. One of his Vice President was a lawyer and neighbor named Richard Strawbridge. He did or is doing exactly as you said, Kevin. He is either President or Vice President of the Naperville Homeowners Association. Little is known about him because he is given little to no press in local papers including the Naperville Sun. While I doubt he could be another Napergate Man, I have no doubt this man could take over the party if he wanted to. Maybe he is just moving up the ladder slowly trying to establish himself. Maybe he is VP and waiting to serve as President before he jumps in to lead the Napergate Party.

He lives in that famous subdivision of Pembroke Commons which is loaded with activists apparently influenced by the Napergate Man who lives there and also walks his dog while talking to everyone....maybe influencing them to excel...and many have!!!

Mr. Strawbridge was not the top Vice President. The top VP was a lady named Donna Rogers who also lived in famous Pembroke Commons. It is so unfortunate she left town. That woman did not get her due credit. She was Napergate Woman....she is who Blogger Ameena would like to be one day...I kid you not!!! I was at her home one time when the Napergate Man bought her a box of paper, ink, and a printer and asked her to fax a press release to all those on his list who did not have e-mail. Many people did not have e-mail at the time. She worked 2 days straight with the help of others until she got the job done. She helped the Napergate Man organize that rally on Spring Green which was very successful and effective despite what the "GANG of 5" say.

The Napergate Man invited Chicago Television Stations and they came. I think Host Ted covered the rally for the Napergatians and may have unintentionally underestimated the number at the rally. But those of who were there counted a few more than what TED COUNTED! Maybe Ted left early before the full force arrived. I personally estimated 500 easy! The 50 cars that were driving east, west, north and south each with 5 occupants holding ballons and beeping thier horns was an effective part of the rally. Maybe Host Ted forgot to count those when he estimated the conservative 300. He was very young at the time and admitted he did not quite grasp what was going on in an earlier post..was just following orders...a lowly reporter he called himself. But at least he can say he covered the Napergate Movement in its finest days and was there. But his article was very well written and gave the Napergatians some well-needed deserved publicity at the time.

In summary, Kevin, to be successful you need MONEY, MEDIA POWER, and MAN POWER. The Napergatians are loaded with MAN POWER. They are lacking the MONEY and MEDIA POWER to tie it all together. That is what the Napergate Man did so well. He contributed the MONEY and the MEDIA POWER and tied it to the MAN POWER and it was COMBUSTION like I have never seen before. What they need is rebel or dissident from the Moser or Wehrli family to provide them some of the money they have! With that they can buy the MEDIA POWER!

YES, in 1999 the Napergate Man was one council member away from ending 165 years of one party establishment rule. Four council members and the Mayor ran that year when the Napergate Man was at peak performance. He could not beat Mayor Pradel. He was too popular and still is. The other 4 council members did not run that year and that is how they escaped the WRATH of the Napergate Man who was trying to make all of them pay dearly for that Kangaroo Napergate Trial in which 12 false charges were brought and no one to this date has been held ACCOUNTABLE...unless they unfortunately passed away.

The Establishment Party has no respect for their prior leaders once they die. They trash them and blame everything that went wrong on them. Former Mayor Samuel Macrane is an example of someone who was trashed upon his death. Speaking of power, that is all the Establishment Party cares about. The Napergate Man does not have an ego or any concern for power. Power was attainable for him and he passed it up. He was for good government and anti-corruption. He was forced to run a Napergate Slate of 4 CANDIDATES because no one was listening.

The only person who could have beaten Mayor Pradel in 1999 was the Napergate Man himself whose popularity was soaring. The Napergate Man had no interest in power or political office. Lucky did the Establishment get!!! He did not run for office but promoted others.

The establishment should be very thankful to Mayor George Pradel. He is the one that kept them in power. The ACE if you will. He was very honest, decent, friendly and adored. Not easily beatable! The only candidate who had a chance against him was Basim Esmail. Basim Esmail did not run for MAYOR and that is why we are where we are now.....A BIG MESS OF CORRUPTION!!!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

PS. Quickly before I crash out since I was up all night reading Jim's Blogs and writing, I just want to say to all those that think the Napergatians have no influence to keep an eye on Chicago Avenue as far as number of cops this summer which is around the corner. It will be decreased from a dozen to 3 or less. City Officials are not going to test the Napergate Man or his supporters and keep 12 cops there. They know it does not make sense and they are not going to take a chance and have someone run a full page Napergate ad and make fools of them. I suspect a lot of the overtime is coming from this intersection. Decreasing the cops will decrease the overtime. Decreasing the overtime will help the establishment stay in power in 2009. It is nice to know that City Officials are nowhere as DUMB as this GANG OF FIVE who are as DUMB AS THEY MAKE COME!. Good night!

Host Ted or Moderator Jim,

Can you tell me why my second letter was not posted? I would be happy to make the necessary changes if I libeled unintentionally.

It took me over an hour to write it. I even stayed up all night!

Thanks for your reconsideration!

I will also re-send in case you did not receive it and do not have time to notify me in a post since I know both of you guys are always running around trying to meet deadline after deadline.

Moderator Jim,

I noticed that a second post I sent at 6:42am was not posted on Ted's Threads. That was 36 minutes before Joe's post. Could you give an explanation as is your practice of the past?

Or did you possibily not receive it?

Thanks for looking into the matter!

By the way, I do appreciate the posting of my first post of 5:35am.

Beilen, you and the rest of the cult say you need a leader with money. Why don't you spend your own? The cult is claiming anywhere from 5,000 to 10,000 members. If they really have that many members, a $10 donation per month from each would raise $50-100,000 a month. That would be plenty of money to fight the small town political fight you are facing.

It goes without saying this would take a new leader and a willingness of the cult to do more than sit behind the keyboards, so it will never happen.

Beilen,

I explained about a 'count' of activity. No plate #'s, no time stamps, just a 'count' of the window of time. One does not have to go to NPD for this.

Why don't you file a FOIA for the details and let us know what numbers you see since you want to know so badly.

Please be sure to publish the results of your conspiracy theory about how it must have been a 'targeted' plate running.

The ball is in your court Napergatians. Pick it up and play ball.

QUESTIONS FOR YOU JOE:

1.How did you get this information?

2.Who gave it to you?

3.I doubt a policeman would give it to you and risk his job...but some do!!!

4.You never said it was for parked vehicles which leads me to believe the other 31 license plate runs were for stops for probable cause of vehicles being driven, which in a 2 hour period is normal for a city of 150,000 resident give or take a few.

5. If you have this information which is possible, you also know exactly what time the Napergate Man license plate was run and are NOT giving it to us for obvious reasons. It just strengthens the Napergatian theories of conspiracy which I believe will be proven in due time!

6. The reason you are not releasing ALL the valuable information you "may" have is it would probably indicate the license plate was run the minute he parked or shortly thereafter and 2 hours