Downtown Naperville can get noisier

Finally, the council does something that makes sense. I think it’s great to be able to go downtown and hear live music. It’s a big draw for some of the bars and I think it enhances the lively atmosphere of the city.

I think it's a great compromise, the 100 foot ordinance was far too restrictive. 300 feet is still enough to allow for live music, but still not allow for the sidewalk-side concerts that dwarfed a space shuttle launch in overall volume.

Keep in mind that on August 7th 2007's Downtown Naperville Alliance meeting with city officials when the police officer representing code enforcement were questioned on the citations they issued, this was their response:

"Almost all the tickets were from 500 feet away. I could hear the bass, and I wear hearing aids."

How does this make sense?

There is live music and then there is amplified live music. There is also prerecorded amplified music. There is also background noise and ambient noise... which can vary from day-to-day and from customer-to-customer.

Noise isn't generally perceived as a problem unless it is too low, too high or you are trying to do something else and the noise interrupts your concentration.

There are plenty of inexpensive sound level meters available today. It is not rocket science learning how to use a sound meter.

If downtown establishments, heck if ANY establishment in Naperville wants to have live or recorded music they should be expected to manage the sound coming from their establishment. The problem is most commonly with live bands who seem to know no limits on how high they will turn up their sound. Many of them I suspect it is only in an attempt to disguise how really bad they are anyway. Regardless, if they want to provide music and considering they are doing this to attract customers and MAKE MONEY it is not unreasonable for them to work out a plan with the city where they will go to a few locations once an hour and take sound level meter readings and keep a log in case of complaints. The city can set the maximum decibel level that will be permitted based upon the location and other conditions. It will then be the restaurant managers responsibility to control the sound level when it exceeds the maximum allowed. This is absolutely no different than controlling the accelerator on your car.

If they can keep a log on the back of the bathroom door to assure us that they are attending to the cleanliness and sanitation of the bathroom the restaurant can also do its part to ensure it is not disturbing its neighbors or permanently damaging their patrons hearing.

If the restaurants can't or won't take an active role in managing the sound level coming from their establishment then they should not be permitted to generate any noise above ambient. All of these establishments should be required to get a sound permit. Every sound permit should clearly state the sound limitations as well as hours of use. There should also be a process whereby the establishment's sound permit can be suspended or revoked if they fail to comply.

It used to be that downtown merchants knew how to be good neighbors. Nowadays being a good neighbor plays at least second fiddle to making money. Since they the downtown business alliance and the chamber of commerce hasn't been able to reign in their members on a voluntary basis then it is time for the city of naperville to step in and set some rules.

Now that would be good sense.

According to the SUN, business in the downtown restaurants is off by approximately 50% year to year. The ready availability of parking spaces and seats in the restaurants on weekend nights would seem to support the Sun’s article.

Without taking a survey, it is fair to assume that the substantial private and public debt that has been run-up over the years and the inflated cost of government when combined with our major employers moving high paying jobs out of Naperville is taking its toll on the secondary economy, restaurants.

While some restaurant owners may associate ear shattering music with the good old days, it is a false connection.

The right question to ask is "why are our high-tech and petrochemical employers moving jobs out of Naperville?" Could it be the absurd inflation of property tax bills which is partially caused by the never ending subsidized parking for the restaurants?

The sooner the downtown commercial property owners and businesses get their snouts out of the city's and homeowners' purses, the better off we will all be.

If the City Council wants to help the restaurants, they should be meeting with our major employers and asking them why they are leaving Naperville.

Anonymous –

I think this could be a good compromise and may mean nothing more than the bars changing from amplified music to acoustic. I don’t think Potters needs to have nightly outdoor rock concerts (I admit to enjoying the entertainment they provide), but I think the city could and should allow something akin to Jilly’s piano bar. That level of music, I believe, is tolerable. Hopefully the bars will get creative and figure out how to continue to provide music within the law.

Eli –

Your post seems to indicate that the 300 foot boundary should be pushed back a bit and I would support that. I hope you would, too.

I assume you’re the guy living above Noodles who complained last year? While I think the bars need to operate within the law, I also think that being in the downtown area means that the average noise level will be more elevated than most neighborhoods. I think the law needs to take that into consideration, too.

T.B.

Moderator and Anonymous,

I just want to ask your joint permissions to copy and paste this one post on to the Napergate Thread...

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"By Anonymous and Downtown on April 16, 2008 9:42 AM
According to the SUN, business in the downtown restaurants is off by approximately 50% year to year. The ready availability of parking spaces and seats in the restaurants on weekend nights would seem to support the Sun’s article."......

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There seems to a very interesting discussion going on there about this exact topic. And I don't believe any of the 550 posts on the Napergate Thread mentioned business was down 50% in downtown restaurants. I was alarmed when I read that! Shocked it a better word!

Can anyone tell me what day this article was in the Sun...>>>>...I would love to track it down and read it. Thank You!!

If this is the case I think the bloggers on that thread needed to know this latest information as it takes the away the need for 3 additional high-rise parking decks and especially the library parking deck. In case anyone has not noticed they already broke ground for the parking deck on Van Buren and Main at the NE corner.

Maybe we can stop the other 2 decks that are being subsidized by us taxpayers since they may no longer be needed...at least in the near future!

PS. Moderator, if you don't allow me to post it on the Napergate Thread, I understand, since you did make some kind of rule that I read but did not fully understand...don't want to be in violation, that is why I am asking first.

Laura

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"There seems to a very interesting discussion going on there about this exact topic. And I don't believe any of the 550 posts on the Napergate Thread mentioned business was down 50% in downtown restaurants. I was alarmed when I read that! Shocked it a better word!

Can anyone tell me what day this article was in the Sun...>>>>...I would love to track it down and read it. Thank You!!"

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Try going to the Library and using the periodicals search tool for Tango Restaurant, I believe they were the source of the quote in the article.

If my memory is correct, it was within the last two months.

As to quoting the relevant part of my post, I believe that you are allowed to quote previous posts that you are referencing.

Anonymous,

Thanks Anonymous! I moved your post to the Napergate Thread and the Host and Moderator permitted it. I was glad for that! Many thanks to them and you!

I know you are allowed to quote posts but there is a little Napergate Sensitivity as of late and since cross-threading was involved, I thought I would ask permission and play it safe.

I expect some serious responses on the Napergate thread to your spectacular post later today as that is the lastest topic they have been banging at over there. And when those people on that thread bang, they BANG BANG!!! I am returning there to catch up on my reading.

But really, I loved you insightful post.

Thanks!

PS. I wish someone could find that article you are referring to and post it for us. I wonder if the Host or Moderator could help us out here. I think if this is true that business is down 50%, we could save 50,000,000 dollar by not building these unnecessary garages. I already thought they were not necessary when business was booming as I never had a hard time finding a parking spot.

They should require a permit for a steep price that allows for specific times for overages on the sound levels.

It would generate some extra cash for the city. You want to be loud, keep buying permits. Otherwise, turn it down or get fined more money than the permit would have cost you.

You people are a bunch of whiners. How in God's name can you complain about a downtown district being loud?

It's too loud at a bar?

It's too loud by a restaurant?

You truly resemble the farm town folk who can't catch up with the real world.

Moderator Jim to Joey the Clown: I thought you were in jail.

I'm noticing a very transparent division here between people who are for and against the increased noise downtown. The people who like their peace and quiet argue their points in a reasonable manner. The people who disagree just resort to name calling since apparently the concept of someone disliking the thought of being blasted with 400 decibels of Kanye West's Soulja Boy remixes is just too much to handle and can't be argued against any other way.

Here's some news for you: The people who are paying the tax dollars to keep this city afloat by and large aren't the type who go to downtown Naperville looking to go to a loud club. They bring their family, their business associates, and friends for dinner and drinks. I can't quite figure out why people are so intent on turning downtown Naperville in to a knock-off of Rush Street in Chicago. Why not hop on the train and experience the real deal and leave Naperville alone for families (remember, this supposedly is the #1 place to raise a family) to enjoy?

Yep we turn it into a knock-off of Rush Street or is it more like Division? Along with that comes problems. Look at the police presence that has to be maintained downtown every night. Look at how many DUI's are generated from the downtown establishments. Look at the fights.

And then of course there are other problems like public urination. Thats a nice one for family friendly Naperville isn't it? Of course the City Council has as much common sense as a plow horse and puts our fine, college educated Police Department on Potty Patrol. Give me a break. Is Naperville City Council, the downtown business alliance and the chamber of commerce all too cheap to put in a few strategically placed porta-johns for all of the people they deliberately attract to downtown. Common courtesy, customer service... yeah those aren't words that roll off your lips when you think of local government. They would do well to improve their image.

As to moving the boundaries back from 300 feet. That would be a greeat idea. In the downtown area 300 feet is a long way and could cross over several neighboring businessess. Even in most residential neighborhoods that would be about 3 lots. Even 75 feet really isn't realistic or fair. All of these distance numbers are arbitrary and capricious. Few people know or understand that sound volume is logarithmic and follows in inverse square law based upon distance. If the City of Naperville is expecting that it can not be heard or is at least at conversational levels at 300 feet... do they actually realize how loud this is going to be at the source? No, I didn't think they did.

The concept of air rights and ground rights are pretty clear cut and well established. In many parts of our country light or glare from lights is regulated so as not to disturb neighbors. Sound should not be treated any differently. Keep it within your property and control it so it does not cross over onto someone else's property. That is call being a good neighbor. That is called respecting your neighbor.

I've been doing sound work on a professional level for close to 25 years now, and on an amateur level many years before that. I love downtown Naperville's atmosphere, but these noise "problems" could all be solved by having real sound engineers, or a modified building code/permit system.

Part of setting up live music, regardless of the venue, is making the tunes sound great and stay contained. The problem here is two fold:

The way both Jilly's and Rizzo's were constructed creates the effect of a megaphone. Rizzo's has bare brick walls and Jilly's has no sound insulation either that I have seen. When you set up a band in the back of either of these two restaurants, the sound bounces around inside and is actually louder outside than it is inside with their doors open. I'm not familiar with Naperville's building codes, but it seems like there is a gaping hole in them if these businesses are being given the green light to have live music performing without a sound containment system. Sound proofing and acoustic dampening devices are getting more advanced every day, and often can be inconspicuously installed without having any effect on the overall decor.

The second and more easily remedied issue is the bands setting up the sound equipment for their performances. My wife and I spend a lot of time in downtown Naperville, and being a sound guy, I usually can't help but take a look at the equipment these places are running and the levels they're using. More than anything else it seems like the amplification systems are just thrown together by whatever member of the band isn't carrying anything in, all the knobs are turned to eleven (It's one louder!) and its on with the show.

I promise you that if any of these restaurants hired someone qualified to set up their bands, the music not only would sound better but also stay contained inside of the performance venue. A win for the patrons and a win for the people on the streets who are getting bombarded with Bon Jovi covers.

http://ProSoundWeb.com/

I still have blog access.

And if they have a Jillys in Naperville, then I'm interested.

Speaking of noise, what about the noise of gun fire from the shooters on West Street on Thursday evenings until 10 p.m.? Most elementary school kids are in bed by 10 p.m. on school nights.
Music? Gunfire? Music? Gunfire?

Sound Guy,

Spoke like a true sound professional. Thank you for your insights, candid observations, and sage advice. Hopefully someone at city hall is reading, taking notes, and maybe just maybe realizing that the best solution just might not be what a bunch of non-sound professionals have attempted to negotiate from the perspective of what is in their best financial interest.

Unfortunately, if what the mayor himself has been quoted as saying on this issue is indeed true and accurate it is clear that he has turned his own back on his Naperville roots and has aligned himself with those who only care about how much money they can make off of and extract from Naperville. Sadly, city hall and its relentless need for more and more money to feed the city bureaucracy is in bed with the devil on this one.

You sound about as dumb as they come.

Contain the sound?

Jilly's and Rizzo both open their windows all summer long!

And you talk about insulation1

Haven't you noticed that all those window on Jilly's open up by folding?

Haven't you noticed that Rizza's has a garage door that is lifted all summer long?

How can insulation help, Mr. Dumb Soundman!

TO: Long-time Residents,

Bury the bone. No one cares. The Sportsman's Club, as you would know if you are a long term resident, was founded around 1884 and has been at the current location since the late 1930's. Back then they had an outside of town, rural location.

You would call out what some sportsmen might do 1 night a week until 10PM in comparison to what a bunch of money grubbing merchants do 7 nights a week until 1 hr before closing?

Now let take a look at all of these money grubbing merchants. Where do they live? How long have they even owned the establishment? Other than the money what is their personal investment and commitment in our community? If you take a hard look at all of these downtown establishments most of them are pretty new. Nearly all of the old establishments are gone, either bought out or forced out. Some still remain but are not the original owners. I'm thinking really hard here and not a one comes to mind that I would identify as having been here more than 20 years. Most of these establishments are in the 5-10 year range.

Bottom line the city council better remember who the dog and who the tail is. If they were getting their collective fat asses out from behind the dias and rubbing elbows with the constituents who actually elect them they would know that more and more Naperville residents are fed up with downtown and what the city council has allowed to happen. Regardless of what some of the newer merchants would like to see, regardless of what their paid mouthpiece from the chamber of commerce says, the vast majority of Naperville residents avoid it like the plague.

And if you think they avoid it because of the parking you are sorely mistaken. They avoid it for what it has become, for its lost charm, for its monotonous sameness. It used to be you could walk around downtown and know or at least recognize a lot of people. Nowadays you could walk around all day and never run into someone you know. Used to be you could walk into an establishment and they would know you and your name. Nowadays you are lucky if the person behind the counter is still the same person who was there at your last visit. Any chance the clerk will remember you or your name? Right.

Sadly there are some developers who are reading the market all wrong and are going to take it on the chin big time with some of the current plans. Downtown is already way overbuilt beyond current needs and demand. Adding more to it is only going to sound the death bell for even more downtown merchants. Pretty soon we won't have to worry about too much sound coming from some of these place because they will simply be gone and the only sound we will hear is their bankers crying.

To Anonymous April 17, 2008 8:25PM,

Actually it is you who is coming off as uneducated at worst or as someone who doesn't comprehend or understand what they read at best.

Go back and read what what Sound Guy actually said. The downtown establishments were designed to appeal to your eye. They were not designed from a sound perspective. Sound control was an afterthought that was interjected finally by the City of Naperville, not as something voluntary by any of these establishments. Controlling sound in a location where it was never considered in the design stage will always be more difficult. Yes it can be contained if the establishments are willing to change their existing conditions. So far I haven't seen any of them rushing to make that kind of investment so as to be able to increase the sound within their establishment without disturbing their neighbors. Instead they have taken the path of least resistance. They have gone to their paid mouthpiece, the downtown alliance and the chamber of commerce, to plead their case and is typical the city council made a change based upon subjective persuasion instead of objective facts.

The establishments dropped the ball and so did the City of Naperville. There is nothing in the building permit process that flushes out whether or not the establishment will be generating sound and how to control it thru design. There is nothing in the business license process that flushes out whether or not the business intends to generate sound and how it will be controlled by the business management.

The recent change will not solve the problem. Think about it. The change was asked for because the establishments want to increase the sound. The louder it gets the more complaints the police will get. The more complaints the more fines. The more fines the more pleading to the city council. And on and on.

The police can measure speed on any street with a variety of tools. The police can also measure sound with a variety of tools. So can the downtown establishments. What the City Council failed to do was to provide both the establishments and the police department with a defined sound level standard. If they had stated, for example, that sound must not exceed 70 dB at 75 feet both the establishment and the police would have an objective standard to compare against and both could work cooperatively together to meet that standard in good faith. The lack of specificity in the new agreement will lead to more dissagrement rather than actually solving this problem.

I think that Long Time Resident had a valid point. Does it really matter how long the gun club has been there or that the noise is only two nights per week (Thursday’s and Sundays, not just Thursdays as discussed earlier)? So can a well-established bar blast music one night per week? Is that OK?

I can hear one of the high schools quite well from my house and I’m well over 300 feet away (or 500, or 1,000 feet for that matter). Should I complain about the football crowds—the cheering, the chanting, the announcer, and the marching band? And don’t try to say that it’s only a few Fridays a year in the fall because the marching band practices many nights after school, I can hear the ding of the baseball bats, and also the announcer calling the track heats to the blocks.

The bottom line is I agree with the Sun’s recent editorial on this issue. I didn’t expect an exceptionally quiet neighborhood when I moved near a high school. People near downtown should have similar expectations regarding noise in their area.

T.B., I agree that people who've moved near downtown in, say the last 10 years, shouldn't complain about the noise. But what about people who've lived there since before it became such a popular nighttime destination?

To T.B,

Please keep your facts straight. Yes, the gun club is open two days a week, however it has evening hours only one night a week.

If your example of the football games and marching bands are true I expect the police will need to keep the High School Administration in check over this aspect of the noise ordinance as well unless the city council sees fit to write in some exemptions. Let's see what else might need to be addressed... hmmm concerts in the park or the band shell? Ribfest? Final Fling? Memorial Day, 4th of July, or Labor Day Parades? Hmmm, how about 4th of July fireworks, police or fire sirens, even building fire alarm systems? Holy cow, what about tornado sirens? Edward Hospital testing their emergency generator?

It just goes to show that the knee jerk reaction of the city council bowing in to pressure from the paid mouthpiece from the downtown alliance and chamber of commerce resulted in another really poorly thought through city ordinance.

You've got to wonder. We are supposed to have a republic form of government where the city council members elected represent all of the 150,000 residents of Naperville's best interests and what do we get? Yeah, another ordinance that is in the best financial interests of a handful of merchants. Pay attention to which city council members vote which way on ordinances like this and remember that when it comes time to vote in the next election.

The noise ordinance kind of reminds me of the time the city council made Naperville the laughing stock of the Nation with the leash law for cats. Just another one of those "What in the heck were they thinking?" moments. It is just really a shame for all of Naperville that the city council has these moments and that they have them so frequently.

Anon –

I guess it’s in the definition of "evening" as the Sunday shooting goes into my grilling time. Maybe not 10 pm as was stated about Thursday, but not harmless, either.

Funny how the bars seem to bother you, but everything else is sort of a joke. Noise is noise, isn’t it? Whether it’s a shotgun blast, a school marching band, or the patio at Potter’s. Why the differentiation?

The only thing you seem passionate about is the bar scene, which makes for sort of a hypocritical argument, doesn’t it? You don’t want a “noise” ordinance that covers the city; you seem to want to punish the bars for some reason. What’s the motivation?

T.B.

To T.B,

Sorry, again please keep your facts straight. Not once have I ever mentioned the words bar, tavern, or nightclub. Go back and read my posts and you will know I have referred to establishments, merchants, and in some examples restaurants. You alone have incorrectly made that assumption. How would you know what does or does not bother me? Another incorrect assumption.

You incorrectly accused me of not wanting a noise ordinance that covers the entire city. How would you know what I do or don't want? No where in any previous posts have I stated any such desire. In fact, I actually was the first to point out several realistic potential noise sources that could exist or be created in other areas of our city, not just downtown.

You again assumed incorrectly that I was making a joke. Fact is it is not clear that many of the potential sources listed would not in fact be in violation of the new ordinance. Ok, I realize the fire and police sirens and tornado sirens are a bit of a stretch, but who knows what a good lawyer might argue should they be defending someone charged with a violation? It is the city council's responsibility to write an ordinance that can be effectively enforced.

If anyone appears to have an axe to grind I submit that it is you vs. Sportsman's Club. Maybe you would like to share your motivation with everyone on why you are whining about Sunday shooting going into your grilling time?
Especially when you already stated that you weren't expecting an "exceptionally quiet neighborhood" when you bought your house. It would make it easier for all of us trying to follow your argument if you would at least pick a side and kept with it.

Anon –

Relax.

I have no axe to grind against the Sportsman’s club. I was just pointing out that the ordinance should cover everyone. Or was that not your comment? If not, please disregard. However, picking any randon initials would help in identifying you vs. others who may post as “Anonymous”.

Maybe you haven’t mentioned the words “bar, tavern, or nightclub”, but I think it’s quite clear from the enforcement last year and the current change to the ordinance that we are talking about the downtown bars, tavern, and nightclubs. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous. After all, the topic of the thread is “downtown establishments”. Or do you think that Noodles is making too much noise at night? How about the antique store (though they will be closing soon)?

I incorrectly assumed that you were making a joke? But then admit that your arguments were “a bit of a stretch”. Maybe if you could clarify your position you wouldn’t be falsely accused of anything.
You incorrectly assume that I have an axe to grind vs. the Sportsman's Club. Maybe you could read my posts and see that I just want to know why some people have such a problem with noise downtown? If the real problem is noise, why does it only apply to the downtown area? I think it’s because people feel like the bars are easy targets. Feel free to differ, I don’t care.

I grew up about 2 miles from the end of one of ORD’s runways. I always laughed at those who would move into our neighborhood and complain about the noise. Could they not read a map? The same applies to those who move to the downtown area, or near the Sportsman’s club, or near a high school.

You can’t figure out my position??? Have you read my posts? I stated that “The bottom line is I agree with the Sun’s recent editorial on this issue. I didn’t expect an exceptionally quiet neighborhood when I moved near a high school. People near downtown should have similar expectations regarding noise in their area.” Open your eyes and read, my position is quite clear.

T.B.

Let me give my give my compliments to The Sun and Mike Mitchell for this article. I've been subcribing to The Sun for two years now and this one of the most informative articles I've read since.

I think Mr. Mitchell does a good job of bringing up issues and making them relevant. I noticed he also writes a column as well. Nice job, THanks for going at these topics.

I expect more in the future.

I can say I am not happy about how the police department spends its money.

Why $45,900 for one person in overtime? Seems extreme.

I'm not sure how it can be done, but can we have some sort of grading card to figure out how the police department is doing. A credibility standards.

Joana,

If you are new to Naperville you may not yet have learned that there are some who consider anything negative said about the NPD to be nothing short of heresy. Our present Mayor being one considering he is retired Officer Friendly (how about that being his chief credential to be Mayor in a town of 150,000 people?) and his retirement is tied to the hip with the NPD. Anything the NPD wants is just fine by him without question. The NPD basically has a blank check with Pradel. Thankfully at least a few of the other council members are able to think independently and without so much obvious prejudice not to say a conflict of interest.

As to Mike Mitchell and his article I agree that it is nice that he goes to these topics. In my opinion the Naperville Sun does not do a thorough job of investigating a lot of issues, rather they very informatively tells us what is going on in Naperville. For this story, it would have been nice to get some comparisons reported so we would know how Naperville stacks up on this issue in comparison to other cities and towns. What are others doing or not doing, are we lead or trailing on this issue? How about some man on the street interviews for these kinds of stories? What do patrons, residents, etc expect in terms of noise? So far all we really know is what the paid mouthpiece for the downtown alliance was able to bully thru city council. Why no open meetings to get input from the residents first? Or does city council not care what the people who vote them in or out of office think on issues any longer?

I totaly disagree with this change. This ordinance doesn't just affect the downtown area. What about the neighborhood pools who like to blast there ampilfied music from 9am to 10pm (midnight on weekends) from Memorial Day to Labor Day? There are many houses within this 300 foot limit that will be subjected to this constant noise.

Well if your neighborhood pool is anything like mine they are WAY over the noise limit on a regular basis. Then we can talk about the noise level during a swim meet... the announcer... the starting horn... etc. My house is a good two plus blocks from our pool and on days when there is a meet you would think the announcer was sitting next to me on my deck it is so loud.

The good thing about the neighborhood pools is that they all run off of pretty much a shoestring budget. The officers are all neighbors who are elected by neighbors. A nicely worded note asking them to turn down the volume will probably work wonders. If not, a few complaints and the fines will be eating into their budget and they will have no choice other than to turn down the volume.

Again this is not rocket science. All the pool manager has to do is exercise some reasonable and prudent judgement and evaluate sound on their own. Walk around and see what it sounds like in the neighbors back yards. Then take a simple piece of tape and mark the volume knob on the amplifier and tell the employees the sound is simply not permitted to go past the mark on the tape under any conditions. And if the employees don't get it then broaden their employment horizons.

The same concept holds true for downtown businesses. If the owners and managers had held their employees and the bands they hire to some kind of reasonable and prudent sound level on a voluntary basis none of this would have been necessary. If they are unhappy with the sound ordinance they only need to take a good look in the mirror to identify who is responsible for this whole issue.

Look folks, we have a gun range blasting away on Thursday nights and Sunday afternoons and you are going to get upset because there is "noise" in a downtown area? You know "downtown" where people go to restaurants and what amount to as "bars" and listen to music. For goodness sake, Naperville is also a college town.

When the gun range adds a soundproofing barrier, then I can get excited about music being played on Jefferson Street or Chicago Avenue.

And, how about the racket coming from the concrete edifice in the sky called the Carillion? That concrete/steel monstrosity is way more offensive than some bar music. What an eyesore.

Wow Rizzo's didn't waste any time at all. They've been blasting live bands all week, ever since this article was posted. At least that's during the night, when the families who are most offended by noise aren't around. And how about the shouting bar fights from every drunk 22 year old kid coming out of that place? Once closing time comes in the summer there are a few every weekend.

But most importantly what about the motorcycles? I think those are the loudest thing going in the downtown area, at all times of the day. Like when you are trying to enjoy a meal on a patio somewhere or sitting on a park bench? Some of those motorcyle's mufflers are modified in order to make them that loud. Does the ordinance have anything to do with the proliferation of every weekend Harley guy once it cracks 60 degrees?

I agree with 'mouse...the motorcycle's exhaust modifications are a bit much. I'm glad my daughter isn't a baby anymore, that could ruin your lunch when one of the mid life's revs it up to get some looks.