Police weigh safety vs. overtime spending

I wholeheartedly endorse the approach of a visible and concentrated police presence in downtown Naperville during the summer months.

I love being able to take my family to eat at Naperville's wonderful restaurants, stroll the riverwalk and browse until late in the complete knowledge that not only will we be safe, but that we will feel safe and that the atmosphere will remain representative of what we love about Naperville.

As a Brit who has lived here for eight years, I can assure you that we do not want Naperville to become like many British towns have become: ghost towns from the early evening, turned into the domains of young hooligans who vandalise, fight, get drunk, swear and make town and city center life downright unpleasant, if not dangerous, for the people living and working there.

Naperville is a jewel. Lets keep it that way.

I think this is an excellent article that explains the unavoidable type of overtime police departments have. While most realize that police work is not a 9-5 type job, this article explains in detail why it is not. Anyone who claims that overtime is unavoidable on a police force has all the answers right in front of them.

It is also interesting to note that while the police get reimbursed for their special event overtime, that money does not go back to their budget. I wonder what the true overtime number would be if that money went back to the police budget instead of the city's general fund?

This article totally exposes the mismanagement of the Naperville Police Department (although the writer does not illustrate this fact). Some key points.

1. The starting salary of a Naperville policemen is $54,000. That is $10,000 more than a Chicago policeman. Think about it. Chicago has a higher cost of living (with a resdidency requirement) and they are REAL POLICEMEN (they actually fight crimes). How did the City of Naperville let these costs get so out of line?

2. Court time should be part of the base scheduling of a police officer, not overtime. The City could hire 20 extra policemen and SAVE $500,000 (based on the Sun numbers of $1.5 million in overtime).

3. Special DUI programs could finance policemen AT THEIR BASE SALARY, not on overtime. The special fines collected by the City belong to the CITY and its taxpayers, not the policemen.

Again, this article clearly illustrates the mismanagement of the the police department. Good thing the manager left, now Dial needs to go. They could manage the police department more effectively as Councilman Furstenau has been advocating and pay his settlement in the FIRST YEAR'S savings.

If someone can figure out how we can get bank robberies, car crashes, smash and grabs and DUI to run on an orderly schedule, I believe we can get the overtime under control.

Oh, I forgot, murders too.

What is the cost of repairing a body that is completely twisted in a car wreck? $3 million?

Conservative taxpayer, I don't think your point proves the police department is mismanaged. Your unattributed data about chicago pd salaries made me wonder, and what you said is misleading. Here's the REST of the story:

http://www.chicagopolice.org/recruitment/recruitment.html

Starting Salary of $43,104, increased to $55,723 after one
year and an additional increase to $58,896 after 18 months.

So Naperville salaries are comparable to Chicago.

If officers spent their shifts in court on straight time, more officers would have to be hired to protect the city. More personnel = more benefits, pension costs, health insurance, vacations etc = higher costs. It's cheaper to taxpayers to pay OT than hire more officers.

No one says fines go to PD, in fact the story says the fest orgnanizations pay the city for police OT and the money goes into general fund and is not counted as PD revenue. Because of the way it's accounted it makes the PD's expenses APPEAR higher than they are.

The Police Department spends more on overtime than the Fire and Public Works departments. Police Chief David Dial says the reasons for overtime costs are court appearances by officers, festivals (for which organizations pay the city to cover police costs), investigations of serious crimes, ARRESTS OCCURRING AT THE END OF SHIFTS, and position vacancies.

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Mr. Moderator,

I think this is relavant to what Police Chief Dial stated causes overtime. The arrest of the Napergate Man took place at the end of the downtown weekend shift. It took place at 2:15am and it involved 4 police officers. He had to be arrested, transported to the jail, and watched all night, after which he was booked and released.

This was an example of excessive unnessary additional costs since the Napergate Man offered to surrender himself over voluntarily but the police officers and Sergeant refused. Could an addtional motive besides the possible political motive been racking up overtime since we know no one is going to flee town or the country for a few dollars?

I hope you see the relevance here, Mr. Moderator, and allow posting.
The Chief of Police brought it up and I am only responding with an actual factual well known case and not speculation.

I am also not a Napergatian, but a first time poster!

Shale, that arrest time would be in the first half of a shift. Most police shift changes occur at 7am, 3pm, and 11pm. There would be no officers on overtime unless someone was covering a partial shift due to another officer not showing for their shift.

The only fact is that you don't have any.

Ah, "A Naperville police detective earned $45,900 in overtime pay last year". That's a joke right. That's a salary for probably 50 percent of Naperville residents. Is this Cook County?

Moderator Jim to Ken, Shale and all Napergatians: The purpose of the police overtime thread is to discuss exactly that. The Napergate man has nothing to do with it and I'm not going to let you guys hijack this thread into another Napergate one. Last warning - all future comments on police overtime that drag in the Napergate man will be deleted and the authors will risk banishment from this blog.

HERE IS WHAT BOTHERED ME ABOUT THE NAPERVILLE SUN ARTICLE WHICH WAS IN ESSENCE TO SOFTEN THE PERCEPTION OF THIS DISASTROUS POLICE OVERTIME:

1. Why state police overtime is .8% of the total City Budget? Why not say it is 9.34% of the Police Budget?

2. If a detective had to work 16 hours straight on a case, why not give him 8 hours off, once he licks his case instead of overtime pay.

3.If a patrol officer has to spend one day in court each week why not hire him to work 4 days on traffic, so his 5th day in court will be non-overtime. Not 5 days and a 6th day of overtime. Hire more cops! Common sense! We get more buck for our dollar if we don't have to pay overtime.

4.Rather than allow a senior detective to make $45,900 in overtime, why not use that money for a new officer to assist him which will get us 40 hours of work instead of 20 hours of overtime since this detective is probably already at a high pay scale thus his overtime will reflect his high pay scale.

5. I think the Sun should put in a call to the Chief Justice of Dupage County to make sure police officers have to be in court for hours upon hours. Why can't they be called in as they are needed? The trip can be made in 20 minutes to Dupage County. Let us verify what Joe Matchett, president of the Naperville Fraternal Order of Police, Lodge No. 42, is stating and not take his word as GOSPEL!

6. Since Naperville has a record number of DUI cases and heavy traffic violations why not set up a court in City Hall Chambers that is empty in the daytime. City of Naperville uses its own prosecutors and I am sure the Chief Judge would allow a Judge to come to Naperville as he does to Downers Grove. This would save massive overtime as policeman can be working and pop in when called in 5-7 minutes anywhere from Naperville to City Hall. It would lessen crime in town if they could be patrolling instead of sitting in court doing nothing since 95-99% of traffic violators plead guilty and ask for supervision whether a cop is there or not there.

7. Has a study ever been made to make sure the number of arrests made in the first hour of a police officer's shift equals the number made in his last hour. A police officer who really wants overtime could focus his energy on a DUI violator in his last hour to nail a few hours of overtime for booking and processing plus writing a lengthy police report. Why can't the police report be written the next day when the officer comes in at regular pay?

Chief Dial stated many arrests take place at the end of an officer's shift. If so, why are a disproportionate amount of arrests taking place at the end of an officer shift?

8.Comparing Naperville to Aurora is like comparing apples to oranges! Aurora has a huge gang and drug problem. Why did not the Naperville Sun compare us to Wheaton, Downers Grove, Lisle, or Plainfield and tell us how we compare. Did they compare us and not release the results to slant the article in favor of Chief Dial? I am sure they could easily have found a town with less overtime than Naperville but they chose not to. This is called biased and slanted reporting to protect a Chief who works as a columnist for the newspaper.

9. Why does Chief Dial feel he needs all these cops in downtown to protect against drunks but not in strip centers throughout Naperville that have bars, taverns and nightclubs. I know one shopping center that has a night club, a sports bar, a restaurant/bar and a liquor store. Guess how many police officers are stationed there. A BIG 0! Are the patrons of all these liquor establishments different than downtown patrons? Do they not drink like downtown patrons? Of course they do! Are they not a risk when they drive as downtown patrons? Of course they are risky! So why have 12 cops to watch over the 4 on Chicago Ave. and none on the NW shopping center.

Why not have 3 cops at each place if you are truly concerned about DRUNK PATRONS? The other 5 can be laid off since we certainly don't need them! As this example proves, 4 liquor establishments have functioned fine without any police for several years. They hire extra security. Downtown retailers may have to hire a few extra security personnel both inside and outside of their premises. Subsidizing the downtown in so many different was is totally out of control Check on other threads for other areas of abuse that were posted in the last few days.

10. Basically for the Chicago Ave 4 liquor establishments we need 12 cops according to Chief David Dial. But for this plaza in the NW part of town with 4 liquor establishments which are just as busy we need 0 cops. This shows how flawed the Chief's arguments are. It appears he is putting cops down there from the schools that are not needed there but needed to fight crime in subdivisions. It appears he may be possibly rewarding some cops he likes with OVERTIME! Again, if you need cops outside of bars, why does this NW shopping center with 4 liquor establishments open till 2am, not have a SINGLE COP stationed there. YES, NOT ONE POLICE OFFICER! WHY???

I challenge the Naperville Sun or the Naperville Police Dept. to give me a STRAIGHT ANSWERS to all MY NUMEROUS QUESTIONS!

Moderator Jim to Disgruntled: First of all, the fact that The Sun did this story, while having the police chief as a columnist, is a testament to the fact that we call things fair and square.
Knowing that this story would elicit criiticism of the police department, shows that nobody gets special treatment in our coverage of city issues just as I would expect, as an editor of The Sun, not to get any special treatment if I was pulled over by a Naperville cop for speeding or some other infraction. Also, some of your solutions are impractical. To name two: The law does not allow for a municipality to set up a special court at city hall...that's not the function of city hall or the governing body of Naperville. Also, would that court dockets go so smoothly that they could simply give a cop a call and say ok, be at court in 20 minutes. Courts and, indeed, the world do not work that way. Only the railroads run on time consistently, if they're lucky. Thanks.

Ken,

When police are working overtime they are not necessarily working the regular shifts you describe.

I suspect those weekend shifts are not regular time. I can not imagine they would bring officers in at 11pm and have them work till 7am to cover the bar rush time of 11pm to 2am. What are they suppose to do from 2am to 7pm when the bars are all closed? Pick their noses for 5 hours!

Ken, you act like you know everything, but all you do is guess half the time. Try doing some research and exercising some common sense.

You sound so much like the old Joe. I suspect you are the old Joe. Now Joe has two personalities. One bloggin as the old Joe a/k/a Ken and one bloggin as the New Joe a/k/a Joe!

I don't know if Disgruntled with Police Overtime has some particular problem with the Naperville police or not but the questions he poses are both insightful and well thought out. I hope that Chief Dial will respond to these questions either in his column or in this venue. The questions certainly appear relevant and reasonable.

To By Be Read,

Two simple points.

1. What do Naperville officers make after the same terms? We know they make $75,000 in 20 years.

2. Since the crime rate in Naperville is 5% of Chicago, why should they make the same money? The security guard at the Naperville Wal Mart makes substantially less than the security guard at the Chicago Wal Mart.

In fact, we should REQUIRE Naperville police to spend six months working in Chicago so they would appreciate their cushy jobs. In fact, Chicago policemen view suburban policemen as Barnie Fife. And in all of the blogs and articles, it seems they are right.

Dear Anonymous,

It appears from your comments that you are under the impression that police officers work a normal Monday-Friday 9a-5pm job. Police work and police departments like any public safety sector work on a 24 hours a day 7 days a week schedule. They work weekends and holidays. Some have a normal work shift of 11pm-7am at night. THIS IS their normal work day and not on overtime. I feel you would gain a better insight of police work if you sign up at the police department for one of their ride-a-long programs and see what happens at 2am when officers are working. I have done it many times in the past and is very interesting.

It was interesting to read the article in the Sun today about city spending for our police protection, and the need to pay police overtime.

I am a Naperville resident who likes to see the high visibility of police downtown. When I walk around downtown on crowded nights, it is reassuring to see police officers present on foot, and on bicycles. Let's remember Naperville is a college town, too. We have alot of college kids partying, along with alot of nightclubbers coming in from out of town to party with us. I agree with Chief Dial in the article when he states "I think the visibility of police in that area keeps things like drunk driving and fights to a minimum."

Comparing police presence at individual bars and liquor stores at strip malls by "Disgruntled with Police Overtime" is not an appropriate comparison to the need for police presence on the downtown streets teeming with people from within and without the bars.

I also found it interesting that all the overtime required for special events, like RibFest, is reimbursed by event organizers, but the reimbursement doesn't reduce the overtime figures because the money goes back in to the city's general fund. According to Doug Krieger in the article, the same goes for funds from DUI convictions that also go back into the city's general fund.

As the Sun article confirms, our police officers are required to be at the DuPage court, and are not there to be "potted plants" as some bloggers have previously stated.

It's also good to know some of our police officers are actually compensated well enough to LIVE in Naperville on their salaries with overtime. To put it in perspective, the link below shows median household incomes in Naperville. In my zip code, 60564, it shows the median household income is over $111,000.00 per year! If overtime is reduced, maybe cost-of-living raises will be in order.

http://www.coldwellbanker.com:80/servlet/Neighborhood?action=findByCommunity

There has been much misinformation by many bloggers on these threads regarding this topic, so hopefully this article will clear up much of the previous fabrication, and speculation by some.

By Disgruntled with Police Overtime
"8.Comparing Naperville to Aurora is like comparing apples to oranges! Aurora has a huge gang and drug problem. Why did not the Naperville Sun compare us to Wheaton, Downers Grove, Lisle, or Plainfield and tell us how we compare. Did they compare us and not release the results to slant the article in favor of Chief Dial? I am sure they could easily have found a town with less overtime than Naperville but they chose not to. This is called biased and slanted reporting to protect a Chief who works as a columnist for the newspaper"
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I can see why they used Aurora for comparison. Naperville has 142,000+ citizens, Aurora has 170,000+.

Using the population of your choices for comparison: Wheaton;54,611, Downers Grove;49,136, Lisle; 23,364, and Plainfield; 31,968, all 4 of them combined add up to be fairly close to the population of Naperville or Aurora. Actually Disgruntled, your comparison is apples to oranges, of course a town with 1/3 the population of Naperville will have a lower annual police budget.

I see the usual suspects have arrived with their special calculators in hand, ready to twist facts and come up with special statistical analysis to show us how awful the NPD is.

Anonymous and Overtime, show me where my information is wrong. I have had acquaintances with many local police and fire department personal from Naperville, surrounding towns, county police, state police and the FBI. I have gotten a pretty good view of police work from talking to these people.

By the way, I couldn't care less who someone with your lack of insight thinks I may or may not be.

9. Why does Chief Dial feel he needs all these cops in downtown to protect against drunks but not in strip centers throughout Naperville that have bars, taverns and nightclubs. I know one shopping center that has a night club, a sports bar, a restaurant/bar and a liquor store. Guess how many police officers are stationed there. A BIG 0! Are the patrons of all these liquor establishments different than downtown patrons? Do they not drink like downtown patrons? Of course they do! Are they not a risk when they drive as downtown patrons? Of course they are risky! So why have 12 cops to watch over the 4 on Chicago Ave. and none on the 4 at the NW shopping center.

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This is copied from Disgruntled with Police Overtime. Disgruntled was very insightful as Uncle Buckeye stated.

I am familiar with this shopping center and it is hopping just like Chicago Ave. It is in Naperville...not unincorporated Naperville.

It seems to have 4 liquor establishments occupying 20-25,000 square feet of retail a space. It even borders Aurora which has tons of gangbangers. Not one police officer or police car is stationed there on weekends.

If Moderator Jim wants to criticize Disgruntled on a weak point he may have addressed, why does he not address this serious issue he or she brings up in #9.

Either you need police officers outside of bars or you don't need police officers outside of bars. In this shopping center bar patrons walk from one bar to another bar just like patrons walk from Jimmy's to Features. What is the difference! The weather is the same in both places! The alcohol sold there is the same as the alcohol sold in downtown! So why such a discrepancy in police officer with Chicago Ave. justifying 12 and the NW Plaza justifying 0 police.

But it appears very peaceful without police. The tenants there have taken on the responsibility of security. Why can't the downtown business take on the responsibility of security instead of forcing the taxpayers to provide their security. Police officers should be driving downtown but should not be stationed outside of the doors of these places. Since they have bouncers and doormen with cell phones, they know how to dial 911 if someone gets out of control that they can not handle which really is a rare event downtown.

Chief Dial can say his 12 police officers are preventing trouble on Chicago Ave. Who is preventing trouble in this Naperville NW shopping center with 4 liquor establishments across the street from gang infested Aurora? GHOSTS!!!

RJ,

Comparing Naperville with Aurora is apples and oranges as Disgruntled indicated.

Downers Grove is an excellent comparison. Just multiply or divide by 3 to equalize the populations and compare the numbers.

Chief Dial blamed some over time on the isolated murder we had. How many countless murders and shootings does Aurora have...many many times that of Naperville. Based on Chief Dials statements, their overtime is justified.

I believe I was once ticketed and went to a field house court in the Downers Grove Municipal building.

I believe the Moderator is wrong when he says you can not have a field house court in Naperville. How did Downers Grove get theirs?

We need one much worse than Downers Grove. It would save both residents and police much time.

To Naperville Sun Editors,

Sorry you got your facts wrong. There is nothing in the law to prevent a municipality from setting up a special court in city hall. Actually this has been done and it has been done a couple of different ways. There are cities downstate that have done this when they are a long distance from the county seat for similar reasons... all the time it took the officers just to drive to court. In other cases some cities have had to create an entire set of municipal ordinances similar to all of the state motor vehicle statute to then charge and try offenders in their municipal court, but it can be done. And Chicago isn't the only example of this.

On the other hand just because Naperville is using the existing court structure doesn't give the county the right to waste our money. If the county board and the judges are not managing our court system effectively and efficiently so as not to be wasting millions of dollars of taxpayers dollars on nothing more than police officers sitting around waiting then for crying out loud report on that and let's get some pressure on Shillerstrom to clean things up and if he doesn't hold him accountable.

Other local towns don't seem to have their officers sitting on their duff half the day like Naperville in court. Why didn't the Naperville Sun investigate how these other towns are better able to manage their payroll expenses? Since we have union police force are we really dealing with "call out" pay? Has the city council negotiated a deal where any time officers have to appear in court and it isn't their "regular" work shift that they consider it call out pay and the officers get paid for 4 hours of work regardless of how long it actually takes to appear in court.

The informative articles are nice. Why is it that the Naperville Sun never seems to dig very far beneath the surface? Does the Naperville Sun not know what to look for, where to look? On most of the issues reported in the Naperville Sun there are always a lot of unanswered questions... why is that?

It always amazes me how some people will complain that these officers and firemen who are willing to protect us, even give up their life for us, are paid too much! How much is their life worth to protect yours or mine? When it is your spouse or child who has been killed by a drunk driver perhaps you will think differently. Same happens for paying teachers. People will complain our society is declining and thus we need more officers to protect us, but will not value the ones who can make a difference in a child's development so they will not develop into criminals. There is no amount of money that can even come close to the value they are to society!

Disgruntled...your lack of critical thinking makes me wonder if we may need to be protected from you. I'd like to see how many officers would be left working on any given day once you have all those who worked 16 hrs straight take 8 hours off. Try scheduling that! Anyone can figure that out! And only 8 hours off...how much sleep are you giving them. Lets see...they have worked 16 or more hours but they only get 8 hours off...and then where is their travel time, time to eat, enjoy their family etc. And perhaps you have never heard 'you get what you pay for?' While I do not mean to demean new officers here, I'd love to have you be the person who needs the experienced officer one day and instead have a new officer. I can see you complaining about the new officer then. And yes, lets bog down the court system even more waiting 20 minutes for each of these officers to be called in. Heck, even 6-7 minutes. Nothing will get done. Heck, I wouldn't like waiting in court either, let them beep me when they need me. Oh & when they are in the middle of helping you out of your car a drunk hit, they can just say "oh sorry...gotta go to court!" when they are beeped. How long did you actually think about this? You might have critically thought of putting money into attempting to reduce the DUIs in the first place so officers will not be needed for this problem. I'm sure the officers would love to have less DUI calls. DUIs in the last hour...are you suggesting that they should let ANY DUI go in the "last hour"? I tell you what...you drive near the one they say "Oh sorry can't stop that one...gotta clock out!" If you think there are just as many in the first hour then suggest they should do more in that first hour but don't suggest they shouldn't stop any DUI in the last hour they actually find.

Certainly, one can look for areas of improvement where one can save money without cutting corners which may jeopardize the safety of my family. Why doesn't the town also look for ways to come up with new money to cover the overtime. Thank the officers by saying we value you protecting us & giving up your family time for us. Write the politicians who actually critically think even less & want to suggest we get rid of overtime. The biggest problem is the politicans can't some how figure out how they can get paid overtime themselves. If they were getting overtime you better believe it would not be touched!

Naperville has just grown incredibly since I first visited family there as a kid some 40+ yrs now. Many of my family have move in town or near there. I'm grateful to see officers protecting me when I take my niece to see The Wizard of Oz in the Park or walk with her downtown in the evening with all the magestic lights. Value your brave men & women, do not take them nor your life for granted! You are very lucky to live in such a wonderful community, many would love to have "your problem!"

It seems to me that the City Council is playing a bit of a twisted and possibly slightly sick game with the accounting.

If the article is correct they look at salary and overtime in one column and then ignore the overtime that was paid back by all of the groups and events. So why look at gross cost instead of net? The amount charged to these other groups should be a pass thru expense that doesn't affect the bottom line for the city.

The city council approved all of the police officer positions. With that comes benefits plus the possibility that there may be some overtime for appearing in court, etc. They also approved the work rules on how and who can get overtime.

A more in-depth look is in order. Business drill down these kinds of expenses to control their payroll cost. The city should not be any different. If Chief Dial can't manage the budget then he shouldn't be chief.

The City Council probably owes everyone in Naperville an explanation of how and why they arrived at the arbitrary amount of 5% reduction. Surely they can do better than that. From the way this article is written it sure sounds like there is a heck of a lot more fat there than just 5%.

With regards to the number of police officers downtown versus NW Shopping center...

Someone should pull a count of incidents between the two locations and see which one needs more police observations/presence.

If those stats show a need for more police presence at the NW establishments, then put them there.

Often times the type of patrons drive the probability of incidents and types of incidents that happen outside. Younger rowdier crowds tend to have more 'problems' than an older crowd. Raw number of patrons also play a part in the probability of incidents at a location.

Disgruntled and one of the many Anonymouses (to timid to post under any name):

The reason that the police can patrol the downtown area on foot is that it is public property. Malls are private property. If the police sit and wait for drunks on private property, it is called entrapment and the case will be kicked out of court. This happened to the NPD years ago, so they had to change their tactics. Foot patrols to keep the peace don't fall under the same laws as making the case for a DUI.

By One Who Does Value You! on April 21, 2008 1:02 AM
It always amazes me how some people will complain that these officers and firemen who are willing to protect us, even give up their life for us, are paid too much!

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You showed your utter stupidity with your post.

DISGRUNTLED did not complain about police. He complained about POLICE OVERTIME. His critical thinking is right on the money. Yours is in the gutter. A 1st grader has better critical thinking than you do!

How silly and dumb of you to say we need to be protected from DISGRUNTLED? His points are all excellent and no one has addressed them?

He was even right on the local field court house that can be set up to save enormous OT! Moderator Jim who is not a critical thinker blasted him for being right! The Moderator needs to apologize if he wants any credibility on his blog site. When you blog with Eric Zorn, he gets you answers! When you blog with the Moderator he brushes you off? Why! To protect and enrich the establishment at our expense!

He needs to get the answer that DISGRUNTLED is asking for from Chief Dial. These articles the Sun does are for public relations and consumption to enhance the image of the police dept. rather than crtique it towards improvement and less waste.

And DISGRUNTLED proved Chief David Dial is wasting our money for SHOW IN THE DOWNTOWN when he pointed an example of a NW Shopping Center that has 3 late bars/nightclubs/taverns and one liquor store all hoppin till 2am in the morning and bordering troubled Aurora.

These establishments need much more protection than the ones downtown. They are on the front line of Aurora which is the gang capital of Illinois as Naperville is the DUI capital of Illions(excluding Chicago in both cases).

When something goes wrong in that plaza, Chief Dial will be held accountable as he is being WARNED on this BLOG SITE right NOW!!!

Moderator Jim,

Any chance the Sun can us a list of the sources of overtime dollars and percents.

Also, any chance the SUN can get the amounts that are offset by the special even re-reimbursements? This would give us the net amount of overtime that can then be identified by category, lets size the problem first.

It would also be useful to get the entire police budget number and divide it by the number of officers that actually work crimes including traffic tickets, this would give us the total cost per officer. Probably something like $150-300K per year fully loaded with everything.

There is no doubt that the downtown is sucking up more resources including police. The question is who is paying the cost for the additional resources that the downtown requires to maintain order. Is this another subsidy for the Downtown which is a net negative on taxes already.

What the "fully loaded costs" will tell us is how much it costs everyone when the downtown sucks up two more officers, @ $300K each? Who is paying for it, the bars?

If you spend a much time Downtown it is obvious that the police are needed; the question is "who is paying the check"?

If the City Manager was doing an effective job of managing the city budget he would have upper and lower control limits for every line item.

If he and the finance department don't then they are not doing a very effective job of managing our money.

Line items that exceed either the upper or lower control limits mean that the budgeting process needs to be tuned better. Trend lines and other forms of financial analysis should be in use to control expenses before they get out of hand.

Overtime pay should not be a bottomless pit that the officers and chief of police can use without accountability. Overtime can be capped. Compensatory time off can be given. Rotating shifts to avoid overtime can also be used effectively. If the City Council is concerned about how much is being spent on overtime pay I do have to question why only a 5% reduction? How about a 50% reduction instead?

Naperville residents should be able to sleep at night knowing that their police force is well rested and fit for duty. If we have officers who are working all kinds of overtime I for one would we concerned about their fitness for duty in terms of sleep deprivation, stress, decision making ability, and longer term consequences like job burn out. Allowing police officers to work too much overtime has other consequences beyond just the financial cost to the taxpayers.

Based on the information provided by the Sun it is hard to tell if the city payroll is being managed professionally or if it is being abused. Naperville residents need to know more about how and why our money is being spent.

Critical Thinking...

Perhaps I should add you...look at the first comment you pasted of mine...

"ARE PAID TOO MUCH" is the ending I said! I did not say he complained about Police period I said "that they are paid too much!" per the overtime issue!

To wait even 6-7 minutes for officers to come in is just ridiculous! And I believe Ken already made the point of private vs public property & someone else on need based. You nor the original posted critically thought to include those points.

Anonymous does bring up an excellent point I mentioned on why just 8 hours off when sleep is obviously.

Anonymous and Downtown wrote:

"What the 'fully loaded costs' will tell us is how much it costs everyone when the downtown sucks up two more officers, @ $300K each? Who is paying for it, the bars?"

Your $300K figure may or may not be correct as the figure for total cost per crime-working officer, but it does not follow that each officer assigned downtown costs the city $300K, as this figure would include overhead costs that do not necessarily increase with each additional officer.

Joe,

Visit the NW shopping center at night. One of the places there draws all kinds of young customers that wear that loose clothing that may be stuffed with weapons and drugs.

Another one has a young audience watching Ultimate Fighting on satellite TV every night getting all psyched up!

A third one has a middle aged blue collar crowd having a shot with each beer knowing they can safely drive home each night INTOXICATED since all the police are on Chicago Ave checking out the pretty high-heeled ladies and opening cab doors for them.

Not one single cop stationed to watch 4 liquor establishments in ONE NW Shopping Center! Trying not to name in order not to break the numerous rules of the Moderator which are approaching ridiculousness!

How in the hell can you have 12 cops monitoring 4 establishments on Chicago Ave and not one single cop monitioring a very busy NW Shopping Center with 4 liquor estbalishments with nearly a 1000 patrons on weekend nights.

Joe, once again you showed your utter stupidily on these blog sites. The group that we are not suppose to mention sliced you and diced you into minced meat.

With or without that group we will continue to dice you and slice you and show how IGNORANT you are!

You and your shadow Ken are despicable human beings who do not possess any CRITICAL THINKING. All you idiots do is RUBBER STAMP the ESTABLISHMENT.

I think Chief Dial and the City Council should all resign over this OT issue. Give me a break...reduce OT by 5%...what a JOKE!!! LOL!

Let us get it as close to 0 as possible by hiring more cops who can be rested and perform better. Can you imagine that overworked police officer having to make a decision to shoot or not to shoot with those 46-49,000 dollars of OT draining him mentally??? What is there to be proud of our current Chief when he allows exhausted officers on the street with guns that could be fired in a moment of extreme exhaustion WRONGFULLY!

I hope the other Party wins the next election against the Establishment Party and fixes this CORRUPT and WASTEFUL TOWN!

To: Anonymous III on April 21, 2008 11:53 AM

Thank you for the lovely rant. Now please answer the incident metric question between the NW shopping center and downtown.

What were the rates per month last summer? Which area had a higher count of NEED for police intervention based on incident numbers?

All I want to say is that Joe really sounds crazy!

John Q,

Assuming the number of officers is static and taking the total budget divided by the number of people that produce product gives you a snap shot of the fully loaded cost per crime fighting officer. (overhead like me does not actually produce anything)

My understanding is that officers are being re-assigned to the downtown and away from other duties. So a static analysis is fair.

If we were adding incremental officers the loaded costs still increase although we not hire one police chief per new officer. Gun, car, pension, leave, sergeants, medical coverage do scale however.

Are most of the officers getting assigned to the downtown new hires? No.

Either way, the taxes generated from the downtown should cover the cost of the downtown.

One place the police department can save some money is in handling police reports. Why does releasing information about anything other than a routine traffic violation or minor offense require a complex approval process that can take days, if not weeks? Two recent examples from today's and yesterday's Sun: An altercation at Nova 8 which required a response of 11 officers and squad cars squad cars, potentially 300 people involved and it was not reported until April 20. It occurred on April 11. It's not news anymore. ( perhaps that's the point) Or the reward offered for solving a vandalism spree involving cars damaged by bb guns -- I think the odds of arrest were better on April 12, when it took place, than they are today, 9 days later.

Other crimes simply never get reported in the paper. ( More correctly, I don't see the articles in the paper.) In our neighborhood, we know they occur because people talk about them, they get reported in our newsletter, but the reports get "lost" in the press release process of our police department.

Do citizens benefit from the delays? How many people review the release before it is issued? Why?

By Anonymous on April 21, 2008 1:12 PM

All I want to say is that Joe really sounds crazy!
==================================================

Yes, need-based patrol assignments that use historical 'incident numbers' as a guide is completely crazy. You're absolutely right.

Really, they should put every neighborhood in 1 hat, and numbers 1-50 in another hat and each night draw one from the neighborhood hat and one from the number hat and that's how they should go out on the streets.

That makes MUCH more sense, right?

To A&D,

Fair enough. The number of officers may be static. Of course there is also the possibility that headcount has increased as a direct result of the need to police the downtown area. Another consideration is that the NPD does not have 12 officers downtown every night of the week all year long, so a better measurement would be man-years dedicated to policing the area. And I agree with you about the scaling of some overhead costs, though not all, which is why I said the costs "do not necessarily increase with each additional officer". Guns, pensions, leave and medical definitely increase with each additional officer; cars don't necessarily, and neither do sergeants.

From a post on the ******* (word not permitted) thread:

By Ken on March 19, 2008 4:17 PM

... Family and friends may be considered likely witnesses by you, but a court needs more substantial proof... Otherwise, it is hearsay evidence. ...

...Speaking of hearsay evidence, that is all you people seem to have. There have been no facts introduced in all of your wild speculations....

----------------------------------------------------------------

From this thread:

By Ken on April 20, 2008 8:53 PM

... show me where my information is wrong. I have had acquaintances with many local police and fire department personal from Naperville, surrounding towns, county police, state police and the FBI. I have gotten a pretty good view of police work from talking to these people.

By the way, I couldn't care less who someone with your lack of insight thinks I may or may not be.

--------------------------------------------------------------

So, Ken, have you now resorted to "hearsay." In your first post above you say that things said to someone by family or friends is only "hearsay" and thus unworthy of being introducted.

In the second post of yours above, you say that acquaintances have given you a pretty good view by talking with these people. Now, according to your first post above, that must also be "hearsay" and thus not relevant as well to the discussion.

Thus, you can not have it both ways. Either acknowledge views of others based on what they have been told or do not yourself discuss information based on what others have told you.

The NPD reported in 2006 that it had 296 employees of which 190 were police officers.

190 divided by 3 shifts... well let's divide by 5 since we have to plan for days off, vactation, sick, etc. and that means at any given time there should be at least 38 police officers on duty... probably more with all the overtime being doled out.

Naperville consists of 35 square miles of land so that means we should have at least one police officer for every square mile 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

If we have 12 officers downtown to deal with all of the problems generated by the merchants attracting the people causing these problems then which 12 square miles of Naperville are being under protected if all of these officers are downtown instead of out on their assigned beats? Seems to me the residents who are paying their property taxes are getting the short end of the stick in terms of police protection.

If the downtown businesses are causing so many problems then why are they not being charged for the extra service or required to hire their own security to address the issues they are causing.

Seems to me that it is illogical for a charitable, non-profit organization trying to do a fundraiser has to hire off-duty police officers at time and a half for event security and all the profit making establishments don't have to pay a dime. Maybe if they also had to pay police officers time and half they would clean up their act and police themselves to the extent downtown Naperville would not need such a ridiculous "police presence".

The following questions were posed to the SUN, and Chief Dial by a previous blogger. Although my responses were not requested, I have answered them for you. My answers are in bold print after your questions:

By Disgruntled with Police Overtime on April 20, 2008 6:00 PM

1. Why state police overtime is .8% of the total City Budget? Why not say it is 9.34% of the Police Budget? ANSWER: BECAUSE IT IS TRUE.

2. If a detective had to work 16 hours straight on a case, why not give him 8 hours off, once he licks his case instead of overtime pay. ANSWER: RIDICULOUS QUESTION BASED ON A HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION.

3.If a patrol officer has to spend one day in court each week why not hire him to work 4 days on traffic, so his 5th day in court will be non-overtime. Not 5 days and a 6th day of overtime. Hire more cops! Common sense! We get more buck for our dollar if we don't have to pay overtime. ANSWER: THE NUMBER OF POLICE OFFICERS IS MANDATED BY CITY COUNCIL. CHIEF DIAL CAN'T EVEN HIRE REPLACEMENTS FOR OFFICERS LEAVING THE DEPARTMENT UNTIL THEY LEAVE. THIS WAS DISCUSSED AT THE LAST CITY COUNCIL MEETING, AND AS STATED IN THE SUN ARTICLE "SIX MORE OFFICERS ARE EXPECTED TO RETIRE OR LEAVE THE DEPARTMENT AT THE END OF THIS YEAR AND DIAL CANNOT MAKE NEW HIRES UNTIL THE OUTGOING OFFICERS' LAST DAY, ACCORDING TO THE CITY'S MUNICIPAL CODE, WHICH COULD BE OVERHAULED AT THE NEXT CITY COUNCIL MEETING." MORE OFFICERS WILL NOT NECESSARILY REDUCE OVERTIME, BECAUSE THEY WILL REQUIRE OVERTIME TOO, DUE TO THE NATURE OF THE JOB. I THINK MORE OFFICERS WOULD BE GREAT, THOUGH.

4.Rather than allow a senior detective to make $45,900 in overtime, why not use that money for a new officer to assist him which will get us 40 hours of work instead of 20 hours of overtime since this detective is probably already at a high pay scale thus his overtime will reflect his high pay scale. ANSWER: $45,900 WOULD NOT BEGIN TO COVER THE COST OF HIRING, TRAINING, SALARY, AND REQUIRED OVERTIME FOR A NEW INEXPERIENCED OFFICER, LET ALONE AN OFFICER WITH THE NECESSARY EXPERIENCE AND EXPERTISE TO DO THE JOB OF A SENIOR DETECTIVE.

5. I think the Sun should put in a call to the Chief Justice of Dupage County to make sure police officers have to be in court for hours upon hours. Why can't they be called in as they are needed? The trip can be made in 20 minutes to Dupage County. Let us verify what Joe Matchett, president of the Naperville Fraternal Order of Police, Lodge No. 42, is stating and not take his word as GOSPEL! ANSWER: I WOULD BE SURPRISED IF THE PRESIDENT OF THE NFOP IS NOT CORRECT ON THIS. IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN MY UNDERSTANDING THAT OFFICERS HAVE TO BE THERE WHEN YOUR CASE IS HEARD IN COURT. IF YOU HAVE EVER BEEN IN DUPAGE TRAFFIC COURT, YOU NEVER KNOW WHEN YOUR CASE WILL BE CALLED, BUT YOU STILL HAVE TO BE THERE AT THE PRESCRIBED COURT TIME. IT IS ALSO MY UNDERSTANDING THAT IF THE OFFICER DOESN'T SHOW UP, CASES CAN BE DISMISSED. WHY DON'T YOU GIVE SOMEONE IN AUTHORITY AT THE COURTHOUSE A CALL TO FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF?

6. Since Naperville has a record number of DUI cases and heavy traffic violations why not set up a court in City Hall Chambers that is empty in the daytime. City of Naperville uses its own prosecutors and I am sure the Chief Judge would allow a Judge to come to Naperville as he does to Downers Grove. This would save massive overtime as policeman can be working and pop in when called in 5-7 minutes anywhere from Naperville to City Hall. It would lessen crime in town if they could be patrolling instead of sitting in court doing nothing since 95-99% of traffic violators plead guilty and ask for supervision whether a cop is there or not there. ANSWER: FALSE PREMISE THAT OFFICERS COULD JUST STOP OTHER POLICE DUTIES AND ACTIVITIES TO POP IN TO COURT WHEN CALLED IN 5-7 MINUTES. FOR ON THING, IT TAKES ABOUT 15 OR MORE MINUTES TO GET FROM THE SOUTHWEST END OF TOWN TO CITY HALL, PLUS TIME TO PARK, AND GO TO THE CHAMBERS. I FIND YOUR SUGGESTION IS IRRATIONAL.

7. Has a study ever been made to make sure the number of arrests made in the first hour of a police officer's shift equals the number made in his last hour. A police officer who really wants overtime could focus his energy on a DUI violator in his last hour to nail a few hours of overtime for booking and processing plus writing a lengthy police report. Why can't the police report be written the next day when the officer comes in at regular pay? ANSWER: I FIND THIS TO BE ANOTHER RIDICULOUS QUESTION. DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE COPS FIND WAYS TO ARREST DUI VIOLATORS AT THE END OF THEIR SHIFTS, JUST TO GET OVERTIME? NOW YOU WANT TAXPAYER MONEY TO FINANCE A STUDY ON ARRESTS AT SHIFT CHANGES. GET REAL! LIKE MOST PEOPLE, I'M CONFIDENT POLICE OFFICERS LOOK FORWARD TO GETTING HOME TO THEIR SPOUSES, AND FAMILIES AT THE END OF A SHIFT, BUT IF DUTY CALLS, I HOPE WE CAN COUNT ON THEM TO PUT IN THE REQUIRED HOURS.

Chief Dial stated many arrests take place at the end of an officer's shift. If so, why are a disproportionate amount of arrests taking place at the end of an officer shift? ANSWER; WHO SAID THERE "ARE A DISPROPORTIONATE AMOUNT OF ARRESTS... AT THE END OF AN OFFICER SHIFT?"? OH, YOU JUST DID. THAT'S JUST ANOTHER ONE OF YOUR ASSUMPTIONS. YOU WILL NEED TO GO AHEAD AND PAY FOR THAT STUDY YOU MENTIONED IN YOUR LAST QUESTION BEFORE YOU CAN MAKE THAT KIND OF UNSUBSTANTIATED STATEMENT.

8.Comparing Naperville to Aurora is like comparing apples to oranges! Aurora has a huge gang and drug problem. Why did not the Naperville Sun compare us to Wheaton, Downers Grove, Lisle, or Plainfield and tell us how we compare. Did they compare us and not release the results to slant the article in favor of Chief Dial? I am sure they could easily have found a town with less overtime than Naperville but they chose not to. This is called biased and slanted reporting to protect a Chief who works as a columnist for the newspaper. ANSWER; YOUR ENTIRE QUESTION IS ACTUALLY A STATEMENT OF YOUR OWN CONSPIRATORIAL BELIEFS AGAINST, AND BIAS ABOUT THE NPD, CHIEF DIAL, AND THE NAPERVILLE SUN. MORE UNSUBSTANTIATED SPECULATION.

9. Why does Chief Dial feel he needs all these cops in downtown to protect against drunks but not in strip centers throughout Naperville that have bars, taverns and nightclubs. I know one shopping center that has a night club, a sports bar, a restaurant/bar and a liquor store. Guess how many police officers are stationed there. A BIG 0! Are the patrons of all these liquor establishments different than downtown patrons? Do they not drink like downtown patrons? Of course they do! Are they not a risk when they drive as downtown patrons? Of course they are risky! So why have 12 cops to watch over the 4 on Chicago Ave. and none on the NW shopping center. ANSWER: ANOTHER BLOGGER ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION ABOUT PUBLIC AND PRIVATE PROPERTY, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO ADD THE FACT THAT THE POLICE OFFICERS IN DOWNTOWN NAPERVILLE ARE NOT JUST THERE FOR THE BAR CROWD, THEY ARE THERE TO PROTECT EVERYONE WHO GOES DOWNTOWN FOR WHATEVER REASONS. WHETHER IT'S FOR DINNER, STROLLING, SOCIALIZING, WALKING DOGS, WINDOW SHOPPING, ETC. THE POLICE ARE THERE TO KEEP THE PEACE, WHICH INCLUDES DISCOURAGING FIGHTS, DRUNKENESS, AND PROPERTY DAMAGE.

Why not have 3 cops at each place if you are truly concerned about DRUNK PATRONS? The other 5 can be laid off since we certainly don't need them! As this example proves, 4 liquor establishments have functioned fine without any police for several years. They hire extra security. Downtown retailers may have to hire a few extra security personnel both inside and outside of their premises. Subsidizing the downtown in so many different was is totally out of control Check on other threads for other areas of abuse that were posted in the last few days. ANSWER: SEE MY ANSWER TO THE PREVIOUS QUESTION. WE CERTAINLY NEED THEM.

10. Basically for the Chicago Ave 4 liquor establishments we need 12 cops according to Chief David Dial. But for this plaza in the NW part of town with 4 liquor establishments which are just as busy we need 0 cops. This shows how flawed the Chief's arguments are. It appears he is putting cops down there from the schools that are not needed there but needed to fight crime in subdivisions. It appears he may be possibly rewarding some cops he likes with OVERTIME! Again, if you need cops outside of bars, why does this NW shopping center with 4 liquor establishments open till 2am, not have a SINGLE COP stationed there. YES, NOT ONE POLICE OFFICER! WHY??? ANSWER: IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT POLICE ARE CALLED TO RESPOND TO PRIVATE PROPERTY COMPLAINTS. AGAIN, SEE MY ANSWER TO NUMBER 8.

I HOPE THIS WILL ANSWER YOUR INANE QUESTIONS.

"...since all the police are on Chicago Ave checking out the pretty high-heeled ladies and opening cab doors for them."
*******
Annonymous III...

Somehow I must be missing this...I haven't seen a one ever do this, despite even intoxicated women who are embarrassing themselves in front of them! I'm offended, is it just me they are not doing this for then? ;-)Oh & I forgot they are not men! They are robots! No, I'm not saying they can cross the line of integrity but don't expect them also not to be human. I'd actually really wonder about an officer more if he didn't notice. What else would he not be noticing. I believe IF this behavior were present which crossed the line, it would not justify changing the number of officers needed but be another issue of police integrity. Certainly, IF that behavior were there it should be dealt with. And what is wrong with an officer being kind and opening up a cab door for anyone in the first place for any reason if they are in the area? Helping someone in any way is wonderful much less for hopefully someone who is intoxicated and is either themselves choosing to use a cab or if an officer suggest they take a cab. Personally, I would be quite happy to see the officers get these drunk women (& men) in cabs in nonconfrontational ways to get them home! Are you stating you have data they do this unequally for men & women? Women who don't show a pretty leg do not get this type of kindness?

What critical thinking did you use when deciding to use global name calling, i.e. "despicable human being" and an "idiot", as a persuasion technique to get people to seriously listen to your concerns and aid in discussion of the issue? How is this helpful in society? How is it any different than what you are claiming is wrong with the opening of cab doors IF it were what you suggest for the wrong motives.

If you are going to suggest 0 overtime for officers then you better be willing to suggest it across the board for all jobs! I'm not sure you will have many others agree with you. Again, "Oops...sorry Sgt. can't get this paperwork completed because I have to clock out now."

On the issue of sleep deprivation, first you have to critically think to ask if the officers with the most overtime are the ones out on the street? You never thought about this first, so the shooting idea you pose may not even be appropriate. In addition, has anyone posed the question how overtime pay is earned? If this is a percentage of the base pay then what does this actually account for as far as # of hours of overtime he/she may have worked total & then how those hours were actually earned. Are we talking days the officer did a 12 hr shift & then added 8 more or 2 more on avg. All these specifics make a difference before one makes assumptions and generalizes.

Misinformation is being spewed on this thread.

Police can and do patrol shopping centers all the time.

Police stop people in shopping centers for many different reasons.

Following a drunk out of a bar in a private shopping center is no different than following a drunk from a bar downtown that is also in a building owned by a private landlord.

If the police feel more comfortable they could give him or her the DUI the minute he or she exits the plaza parking lot. But I believe they can give them a DUI if they are caught driving in the plaza parking lot which is for public use. There is no entrapment as Ken fabricates so eloquently in the hopes we will believe him.

The bottom line is that Chief David Dial has been exposoed as not being on the ball by devoting 12 police officers to 4 liquor establishments on Chicago Ave and providing no help to 4 liquor establishments in a NW Plaza. Again a misallocation of our money and police force to subsidize downtown! The NW Plaza borders gang infested Aurora and should be provided some help by the NPD.

Anyone who lives in Naperville knows police officers can patrol plazas as they please and they do. Who has not seen that!

Stop lying Ken on this thread and acting like you know anything. You know nothing and are borderline DUMB!

Thanks for exposing Ken for what he is, Mr. Rod Randall! A FOOL!!!

Ken is lucky that members of the group that we can't mention are not here ripping him apart as they ripped him apart on that other thread we can not mention by name. He escaped that thread to come here thinking only that unnamed group knows how to chew him apart and throw him up! He found out there is no where to hide if you are a LYING FOOL BORDERING ON A DUMB IDIOT!

Thank you!

Anonymous on April 21, 2008 5:53 PM---first, please stop the sophomoric name calling (my apologies to any sophomores who might be reading this). It does nothing to bolster your argument, and seriously degrades the level of debate on this board.

Also, this is the second time that someone has said that we have twelve officers protecting four establishments on Chicago Ave. I believe those twelve officers patrol the entirety of the downtown area, where there are considerably more than four businesses that serve alcohol.

I believe David Dial is handsome.

Moderator Jim
What happen here.
Any comparison with cities of equal size and demographics. How about anyone happy with the idea that our city has the resources to have such a quality police dept. Anyone thought of the added education and training our police officers have,or how quickly high profile crimes are solved. Has anyone given positive airtime to the idea that we as a city host venues that bring in tens of thousands of people along with the 140,000 that live here. For the analytical folks maybe a comparison of overtime vs benefits of adding more police officers. ANYTHING BUT THIS CRAPPY BICKERING! Give me some good news.

Who is in charge of this blog anway? I'm tired of all the conspiracy theories about the Naperville Police Department. Try living in Gary Indiana and tell me about bad policing.

Did you know that there is a roller disco right in downtown Naperville and no one knows it?

I mean a roller disco for heavens sake. I got rid of my skates in 1982.

Oh yeah, we were talking about police overtime. Anyway, they do their job. Live and let live. And we should probably raise taxes anyway to cover new expenses in this town. It's time you tight-wads live a little.

Try rollerskating.

It does not appear that anybody on this post is a cop-I am-not in Naperville though in another large suburb with a much higher crime rate.

I am in a quasi tac unit that more or less gets to do whatever we want too-as long as we make a high number of gang/drug arrests compared to patrol-Pretty Cool.

This is how it works....
I make about $75,000 base salary + $3000 paid vacation (We dont get any holidays off)
OT rate is about $54 per hour based on time and a half. Last year I made about $95k and took about 4wks worth of comp time(Extra vacation) in lieu of OT pay.

Here is my schedule for last week

Sunday = Off
Monday = Off -had scheduled court 8am and 1pm (6hrs OT @ $50 per hour)
Tuesday= Work 6pm-2am (30min OT-late arrest)
Wednesday= Court 12pm-3pm (3hrs OT), Anti Gang Detail 3pm-6pm (3hrs OT), Work 6pm-2am
Thursday=Work 6pm-2am
Friday=Work 6pm-2am then mandatory holdover due to usual weekend BS until 5am (3hrs OT)
Saturday= Work 6pm-2am mandatory holdover until 430am (2.5hrs OT)

Fact of the matter is that I am not going to go to court unless I get paid for my contractual 3hrs each court call. I have better things to do then do that on my own time-Cops have families too.

I make lots of arrests and don't ever expect me to do late paperwork unless I get paid. Would you?

We get heldover when midnight shift is busy. If midnights is busy that means they cannot handle their calls. If you are OK with people getting beat/assaulted/robbed/shot since you dont want to pay overtime I guess you are an idiot. I don't particularly enjoy all the OT, however it is necessary. You cant be cheap with peoples lives. I would love to hire 40 more police for my city-wont happen since it is cheaper to pay OT then hire new officers-per the city.

If you have questions ill be happy to answer them.

"Sorry Mame...I can't come to help I have to clock out!" (Though we know not one officer who does what they do from their heart would even think of saying this btw!)

All in a day's work...

http://news.aol.com/story/_a/cop-battles-snake-to-save-store-owner/20080421101709990001?icid=100214839x1200472226x1200017609

Video link to watch also!

Rod Randall, nice try but no cigar. I did not claim my opinion as fact, saying what most department's shifts usually are, not what they definitely are. But since you questioned me, I will post the facts and admit I was wrong on shift times...by one hour. I was still right on the fact that a 2:15am arrest would not normally require overtime. Here are the facts, obtained from an add put out by the Naperville police:

The City of Naperville’s Police Department seeks an individual to supervise the activities of the Police Records Unit and ensure efficient workflow on one 8-hour shift of it’s current 24-hour operation. (Day shift is currently 8:00 am - 4:00 pm, Afternoon shift is currently 4:00 pm – 12:00 midnight, and Night shift is currently midnight – 8:00 am. While the assigned shift cannot be specified at this juncture, it’s days of work will be primarily Monday – Friday, and will include working holiday shifts. Occasional weekend hours).

Rod, I was not claiming hearsay as fact that would stand up in court as the people I was addressing were doing. I guess if you didn't lack a basic ability of reading comprehension you may have realized the difference.

Anonymouse 5:53pm, I wonder why you are libeling me? If you are going to accuse me of lying, you should have proof. Since the case I am familiar with happened over 20 years ago, and the attorney involved has died, I can't prove this as factual. However, common sense would tell you that if the police could arrest for DUI's right in a bar's parking lot, they would set up their DUI check points right in the lot.

I have never seen police patrol a parking lot without permission from the owners. I was hit in the Home Depot parking lot in Naperville, and the police would not even come to the lot to issue a ticket. I know, Rod, there is no way to prove this, but you have yet to prove anything I said is false, so I will rest on my track record here.

What a lot of people here seem to miss is that a lot of police overtime is generated from special events. That overtime is paid for by the event people but not put back into the police budget. Since there was no amount given to how much that amount was, we have to go by the amount that the council asked them to reduce overtime by. That small amount, in my opinion, seems to indicate that the majority of that overtime bill is covered by event planners.

I make lots of arrests and don't ever expect me to do late paperwork unless I get paid. Would you?
*****
Mr. PoPo...

:-) Ask an Educator! :-(

And hmmm seriously...Dial is quite Attractive actually! ;-)

For those of you who think that since you don't see a "marked" police car that there are no police around...You never know who may be in the unmarked car next to you, watching and waiting!

to Mr POPO Thank you for your contribution.

Mr PoPo

Or should we just shout "5-0"

Do you think that vagrancy laws and anti-loitering laws would do anything for the gang problems? How many of the scum bags at the recent murder had jobs?

If they actually had to have jobs to justify why they have money would they be too busy to be criminals?

If they could be arrested for standing on corners would that kill the drug business?

Yes, less crime means less time, overtime.

Moderator Jim to Southside: I agree with you - the results of the NPD are out there to see.

'udontcme' thank you for bringing up this point which some have not again critically thought about. With some of the comments posted, you may need to take care of them! Please do! :-)

Downtown and Anonymous...

Good Lord...you are telling me I'm going to get arrested if I am hanging out on a corner waiting for someone to meet me or talking to my friends. Do you know how many times (hours!) mall security has gone around & around as I've talked to a friend at our cars after having dinner at a restaurant. No, I'm not a teenager but still...Nah....I would not have a problem with an officer asking me what job do you have, how much money do you earn etc. While I know what you mean it just isn't reasonable. It is not going to hold up in court...I don't think, the officers can correct me if I am wrong but in today's day...heck people will try to sue an officer (try the key word) for just saying Hi! Sad!

To those on posting with such anger, name calling etc....

If you are so passionate about this then why didn't you go in the field in some way. Be an officer, a lawyer, judge, lawmaker....get involved with helping rather than just whining about it. See what is involved. Yes, there is unethical people in ALL walks of life, but heck nothing would be done if it was totally unethical & if you think you are an ethical person get in there & make a difference. I grew up with "If you are not a part of the solution, you are a part of the problem." Whining does not do anything...ok it might make you feel good for a fleeting moment and be all you can do until you figure out what to do to make a difference, but then use that to actually do something. Whining is different than posing questions from a neutral stance, including asking questions of suggestions like "How many officers are....is is possible to have...." etc. When one is upset it can fuel one to be motivated to make change in positive ways. And no I don't say this claiming I have never been upset & done it myself, but then you step back or later say ok....and it usually is when someone does name call or want to suggest "they know" etc.

Downtown and Anonymous:

#1 You can have loitering laws for drug sales and prostitution which are usually just a city ordinance. You can write these tickets, however they usually get thrown out in city court. I used to write them for a large strip mall that we were having a problem with the homeless. Most would get thrown out in court.

#2 In my opinion most people with full-time jobs are usually too tired to commit crimes in their spare time.

#3 No. Where I work their are relatively few open air drug markets. Most people sell out of their homes or apartments and we have to work on getting search warrants. This takes lots of overtime since you have to sit on the houses and wait for people leaving. Drug units are too stretched and patrol does not have the time.

By udontcme on April 22, 2008 8:22 AM
For those of you who think that since you don't see a "marked" police car that there are no police around...You never know who may be in the unmarked car next to you, watching and waiting!

____________________________________________________________________

The group we can not mention by name is right and there are almost no patrols or unmarked cars in the subdivisions. They are all downtown basically doing little to nothing.

Yesterday, I observed a white car drive next to my home side curb and exchange something with a neighborhood kid in a very suspicious manner. I asked the neighborhood kid who I knew well what happened. He said the guy dropped the keys to his car to him and it was wrapped in a dollar bill. I did not believe him.

I asked him if I could search him. He agreed! He had about 10 pockets. In the tenth pocket I found a suspicious substance. I asked him what it was. He said it was nothing but spices. I took it away from him. He said I paid 20 bucks for it. I said you paid 20 bucks for this tiny bags of spices that was a fraction of a gram. He said he did! He finally admitted it was marijuana after initially stating it was a mixture of spices and marijuana for cooking purposes.

He begged me to return it to him. I refused! He said it was the only 20 bucks he had and if I flushed it down the toilet he would lose his 20 bucks. He threatened to call the police on me if I did not return it to him and charge me with stealing his illegal drugs brought on my property. He was 18 years old. I told him please call the police on me. I told him they would arrest you and not me.

I offered him 2 choices. One to flush it down the toilet in his presence or give the drugs to his Dad in his presence. He chose the latter. I took him to his Dad. I told his Dad what happened and gave him the bag of marijuana that his son bought for 20 bucks. The Dad told me he just gave him the 20 dollars to put gas in the car. He took the marijuana and scattered it in his yard. He asked me if I had a baseball bat and if I did, I have his permission to crack his head open. I declined telling his Dad, I don't want to go to jail. Obviously his Dad did not want to go to jail either, and that is why he extended me the priviledge.

His Dad told me this is the 4th time his son has done this in the subdivison and thanked me for busting him.

I watched the transaction take place with such relative ease. The kids know there are no police and they have no FEAR of being caught. They know all the police are disproportionately in the downtown area where they are not needed in those huge numbers thus freeing the subdivision for drug dealing right outside our windows.

Unfortunately, I pay nearly 12k in real estate taxes on my home and I have to do police work because my police department is failing me, my subdivision, and our kids.

I did not call the police because the father is a classy and well respected doctor in our neighborhood. He was agonizing. Calling the police would mean, it would cost the DAD who is an innocent victim as to what is happening in our society. He would have to pay for all the legal expenses of his son since his son is penniless and jobless.

This brings me back to the Fire Chief who was charged with punching his son. Why was he charged by the NPD? I am sure he punched his son for good reason in the chest. If that is what it takes to straighten your son out, let it be. The NPD should not interfere because a Dad punched his son in the chest. Did he break any bones?
Those punches may have saved his son from committing crimes and spending the rest of his life in jail. A Dad should have every right to deliver tough love to his son short of breaking a baseball bat on his head.

My neighbor and I would have loved to give this boy an old fashioned licking to teach him a lesson about drugs. But unfortunately our hands are tied behind our backs. If we did, we would be arrested. If we called the police, the innocent Dad pays the massive legal bills. In both cases we lose.

The NPD is not reaching the kids! What are these police doing in the schools? Over 100 kids in each school are pushing marijuana and other drugs and the NPD can't stop these high school kids. The 100 kids in each school selling marijuana is not my number. It was told to me directly by a Naperville Police Officer.

We should have these police in the high schools teaching the kids a lesson before they graduate to Chicago Ave. They should be nipping the problem in the butt and not when it is too late. Police Chief Dial is failing this town miserably.

All this overtime to the NPD and I have to go out there and play policeman because are police are non-existent.

I think it is disgusting when a police officer like Mr. POPO comes on these threads and says he will do nothing unless he gets paid his OVERTIME. I did not get paid anything and I was happy to contribute to the security of my subdivision. I got some gratification busting a neighborhood kid and saving him from himself, even though I almost missed my sales tax deadline which could have cost me a few thousand dollars in penalties and interest.

Teachers work plenty of overtime without getting paid a penny.

I think it is time to put police on a straight salary. They have mostly all developed a money hungry attitude for OT money. We should put them on a 40 hour a week schedule and if they arrest someone at the end of their shift, they should understand it is not a CRIME to donate a few minutes of your time to your town that does so much for you such as giving you a 75% pension and allowing you to retire at age 47 while the rest of us have to work till age 65 and DO NOT GET ANY PENSIONS because Corporate America can no longer afford them. You get one at taxpayer expense and will not give us a few hours of your time without charging us TIME and A HALF for a position that is suppose to be PUBLIC SERVICE!

It is time to eliminate OT and put police on salary like teachers. If they don't like it, they can all quit...let the door hit them on the way out. There are hundreds of other good police prospects waiting in line to take their job for a little under 60k as a starting salary. Most college graduates don't make close to that kind of salary if they can even find a job in this terrible economy!

Naperville Police are NOT risking their lives. When was the last time a Naperville Police Officer was shot and killed on duty. I have lived in this town for decades and I have never heard of a police officer killed while on duty. So the risk to life and limb of being a Naperville Police Officer is almost negligible and nothing compared to Aurora or Chicago! So why do we pay them so much when they are not even willing to write a report after hours unless they get time and a half! That is despicable, disgusting and shocking that our NPD could have reached this level of hunger for our OT money and have no clue what volunterism means as most Napervillians perform daily from their precious limited time and funds.

I think our police department needs a complete overhaul. Police Chief David Dial is not in touch with his town. He is not even aware that over 500 people complained about excessive Chicago Ave. police presence. He said that to the Naperville Sun!

A POLICE CHIEF who is not in touch with the pulse of his community to this extent needs to RESIGN!

Mitch,

It sounds to me like the Dad/Doctor needs to be more of a dad and be involved in his son's life if his son is turning to drugs to fill the void.

What prevents the kid from being more covert about not getting caught next time? Nothing. His drug problem is his family's problem. What got solved? Nothing.

On a lighter note, thank you for actually caring enough to do something in that instance. It will happen again with the same kid, and that is the parent's fault, not the NPD's.

Mitch,

What penalty would you give the guy who sold the drugs to the kid?

Did you call the police to give them the plate number?

Did you have the kid give you the name and number of the one who sold him the drugs and you called the police?

What did your neighbor do to punish his kid? Take the car away? Give him another $20?

Tell the truth

Mitch,
I can tell you are really bitter and upset about the police. I'm sorry the police have failed you.

Federal law gives police OT for anything over 40hrs per week. Unions help negotiate police contracts so the OT thing probably will not change.

Perhaps you should do a ride along with the police to experience what a Friday or Saturday night is really like. Based on your posts it does not appear that you know anything about the job so a ride along might help educate you. Just a thought.

The pensions are also a nice benefit. Police get to retire at age 50 after 20yrs on the job (2.5% salary per year up to maximum 75% base pay). Too bad average police dies at age 57 due to the stress over the course of the career.

Ah, yes. Public servants should be just that, servants. Nice attitudes. If it's such a cake job, why isn't everyone doing it and making such great money? Do any of you even know any police officers?

I applaud the police. They deserve every penny they earn, especially in a town where, people think that the law doesn't apply to them because they live here. Ask a police officer. He/She'll be able to give you many examples.

You know what, Mitch? Parents need to be reaching their kids. That's their job. Children in this town have a lot of money to spend. Why do you think you have someone dealing in your neighborhood? Wake up! Keep on taking the law into your own hands. At some point, you said it yourself, you'll probably pay the consequences for that. You did that "dad" and his child no favors whatsoever. Please, tell us how you earn a living. It apparently pays well and doesn't require common sense.

I think a lot of you are sore because the Naperville Police have better jobs and make more money than you. You sound like people who made the mistake of buying houses you cannot afford. If things are so bad in Naperville, no one is forcing you to stay. There are plenty of homes for sale cheap in other communities.

My tax bill is in excess of $15,000 a year. I have lived in Naperville since 1991 and have NO problem with the number of police officers and their pay -- ever stop to think the crime rate is so low because Naperville has such a large and alert force?

And why does it seem this blog is little more than a conversation between three people using multiple names?

Mitch & others...

Oh Good Lord PLEASE do not put officers on teachers levels! Bring the teachers up! You want to see officers more stressed out? The consequences will be just horrific! Why do you think so many educators are burning out? Why do you think so many are leaving teaching after a few years? Don't even get me started on this...We should be doing more to honor the officers & help them! Lets get them programs for free yoga, meditation, massages etc. Have you ever paid for their lunch? Thank them!!! They deserve it! I know they are not thanked because when I thank them they are shocked! I rolled over my SUV last Dec 15th (that bad storm...it was early the snow just started but I hit black ice despite driving slow and amazingly just one tiny bruise!) and an officer was heading home & stopped to help me. He & the one on duty who now would not be going home when he should have because of me were shocked when I thanked them a bit more later! That is sooo sad! They are very gracious & say they don't need it but they do!!! We should not take them for granted!

One doesn't also think of the wear & tear to their bodies, why they have such high divorce rates, etc. We need to take care of them more. Someone stated that officers in Naperville have "not given up a life" and have cushy jobs etc. First I don't think it is as cushy as you think and it really is not the point! The point is they would give up their life if need be. They have more opportunity in their job to be hurt etc. And why didn't anyone say...hey this guy that put in all this OT...what was he doing? Ok, if he was being unethical & sitting on his duff then ya take care of it, but if he is really busting his butt...we should be saying what an incredibly wonderful person who gives of himself. He could be home relaxing with family and doing so many other things. Ya, you get paid but is the money ever worth what you do or why you do something? If you get paid very little for something but still do it why are you doing it? It is not always so different when you are paid a lot of money. There are times ok fine you put it in the bank but you know there are times no matter home much you are paid it is not worth it. With all the stress & issues officers have I tend to think they are not just doing it for the money! I feel sad in some ways...what he/she could be doing personally if they were not doing the OT. I'm not saying they didn't enjoy doing it. Heck, why am I in my office until the wee hours or working at home so late...I get in the flow having fun. Do I look at it as $ I'm making? NO! And maybe that is why I am still paying bills etc at this point in my life...but I don't think I would change it? I could have gone into something much more profitable but I love what I do...not the politics but...I tend to think it is the same for most of the officers. Are there some officers or teachers (or any career) who do it just for $ & prestige etc? YEP! And they are the ones that have the most problems enjoying their "job" (how they will see it, rather than a life passion) and will not do very well in life.

Also, the "tough love" idea be very careful. We know that reinforcing socially appropriate behavior works much better than punishing poor behavior...hitting only promotes violence. (If someone really wants the references to the research I can provide them & all the consequences.) The point is to set up conditions (family dynamics) & have loving relationships in the first place with your children (& spouse) so you don't even have the opportunity or circumstance occur in the first place where you would need to consider using punishment like you suggest. A child who is buying drugs already, it is due to so many other things going wrong earlier on & yes it even happens for those who are children of doctors, heck even officers or preachers etc.

BTW...officers do go into many schools, my sister's classroom is one of them, but if I am not mistaken, if you look at the research on the effectiveness of the DARE program it is not found to be significantly helpful. Whoever is posting and an officer...correct me if I'm wrong but I believe an officer did give me the stats on this. Why do we use it then I asked them? Because parents want something. And to suggest it should just be the officers job to do this is just sad. It really is everyones role, but certainly should be primarily the parents. Unfortunately, we know that is not happening in all cases. Just like education is just not in school but has to be how much the parents value it & work with their children...this is just educating them on other matters like drugs. It can make a huge difference in how they lead their life & thus if we need officers to protect us from them later.

Lastly...for now...if you don't think that officers do anything off time & from their huge hearts you don't know officers or just those who are not doing too well in life. I do agree with Mr. PoPo...go on some ride alongs or get to know some, they are just amazing. Do they get frustrated with systems & politics like any of us in any career we are in or in society's politics YES! Their hands are tied many times just like ours are and it is sooo frustrating! Do not judge all of them by the few you meet or even haven't met but by some quick impression you take. You would not like to be judge that way by your career, gender, culture etc.

Glad to live in a town were the police are proactive. Sounds to me like we are getting a bargain. 10% of the payroll budget is set aside for overtime thats 4 hours a week(bases on 40 hour week). Our wonderful town is not perfect when it comes to crime. I have nothing but the highest regard for our department and the fiscal responsibility of our administration. Moderator Jim how about a blog or some info on how well trained our force is. How efficient they are in solving both petty and serious crimes. How when folks call them they are there in a damn hurry. This is a big town and when I have called they have been "Johnny on the spot". We are getting an excellent value for our tax dollars with both our police and fire departments,(along with our educators).

Posted by KEN:
"Here are the facts, obtained from an add put out by the Naperville police:

The City of Naperville’s Police Department seeks an individual to supervise the activities of the Police Records Unit and ensure efficient workflow on one 8-hour shift of it’s current 24-hour operation. (Day shift is currently 8:00 am - 4:00 pm, Afternoon shift is currently 4:00 pm – 12:00 midnight, and Night shift is currently midnight – 8:00 am. While the assigned shift cannot be specified at this juncture, it’s days of work will be primarily Monday – Friday, and will include working holiday shifts. Occasional weekend hours)."

While you say these are the fact put out by the Police Department, the above description is a cut an paste from an ad for a job opening in the RECORDS DEPARTMENT; a CIVILIAN job. The Patrol Officers work 12-hour shifts - 5:30 to 5:30 or 6:30 to 6:30 ~ 24-7-365

Where is there a roller disco in downtown Naperville?

We need to put a stop to this. I'm wondering if the police department is aware of the kind of activities that go on at these establishments. They are clearly not places for children since they promote an open sexual culture.

I'd like to see someone on this blog come up with a location so we can start to point the police department toward the building. THis is not what we wanted in downtown Naperville.

It sounds like since the Moderator prohibited this unnamed group from bloggin on this site in their own style, now we have all policemen disguised with funny nomenclatures patting each other on the back as to how great they are.

This is sadly what happens when you try to control debate in any form or fashion!

The Moderator should open the floodgates and let this group we can not name, engage in a true debate against the police officers disguised and hiding on this thread. Of course police are going to support OT for themselves that enriches them at the expense of the TAXPAYERS! What we have is an orchestrated debate tilted to the police side because the Moderator imposed some unusual rules of engagament! I have never heard of such rules before an open debate even starts!

When the group we can not mention by name is bloggin, none of the POLICE show up to debate because this unnamed group rips them and all their balony to shreds.

I guess the police are great debaters when they in essesnce debate themselves as we have seen all day yesterday on this blog site except for possibly one letter from Mitch who received no support from the group who risks banishment if they debate here and say one wrong word even accidentally. Why would they risk coming here if they face banishment as already happened to one of their members for one inappropiate comment on his first attempt to blog?

That is not what I call a true debate!

I think the Moderator should open the floodgates and let the debate go where it may.

The leader of that group was arrested during OT that started at midnight for a petty toll matter that tacked on even more unnecessary OT beyond the 2 hours and 15 minutes of OT already accrued on Chicago Ave by 11 police officers and a SERGEANT! This is a complete waste of OT money as this whole fiasco could have been avoided if this popular leader could have turned himself in voluntarily the next day when police were there and working REGULAR TIME.

I would like to kindly ask Mr. POPO if his department allows any discretion in Toll Authority suspensions or has a forced policy of arrest as appears to be the case in Naperville!

Anonymous...

You say all that when you are not using your name? What logic! What does it matter if they use silly names if the content of the statements are accurate, logical & involve critical thinking. And, yes part of debate is to call anyone out if they use the wrong technique or have inaccurate information. Any young student even learns this. Officers have every right to be on here & giving their point of view! You just don't like it because they call posters on their errors or misconceptions.

OT is not an expense of Taxpayers if we are getting something of value for the money & we definitely are! Did you ever think it is tilted by those who may be officers or those citizens who are in favor of officers because there are more who are on that side. Who is preventing anyone else from the opposite side to come post? Bring them on! Round them up & get them posting then!

To the editors:

Maryann or Debbie hiding as now Anonymous, (she's scared now of being banned I guess) is again lying about OT ect and still tried to tie it into the cults agenda of you know who being arrested... From the post Ive read, its citizens responding on the thread, not the cult. Its a nice change thats for sure. Looks like a re-grouping at the DD to figure out how to attack the Sun and the city is in order.

Thanks again to the editors for keeping a lid on the cult and their lies.

how can you justify the over time?where i live i hardly see any squad car passing by for weeks.but i see them in groups sitting in gas stations.so you tell me they should get over time or not.

According to my tax bill, it costs about $6 for me personally to fund police overtime when you calculate using the percentage of the budget it is and the amount of tax levied for the city fund.

I think I am getting my money's worth annually for $6 and change and will happily continue to pay employees for the time they work.

Anonymous,
There is no "forced policy of arrest" anywhere. Have you been arrested before-sure sound like it.
Plain and simple. Police get OT due to FEDERAL LAW. Police are hourly workers.

How much do you think police should get paid?

Mr. Popo,

I think you were being asked if a police officer has discretion to allow an outstanding citizen to avoid handcuffs and jailing if his license oe license plate was suspended because his child ran some toll booths 5 years ago that he did not even know about.

It was done during OT hours in downtown Naperville resulting in more OT dollars to the taxpayer. The outstanding citizen who had a dog with him agreed to turn himself in voluntarily if the police would please allow him to take his dog home. Are police in your dept. as mean as some Naperville police are? Do you think these actions by police are necessary when someone is willing to turn himself in voluntarily and is known to be a non-violent activist for 30 years in this town? Never hit anyone in his life!

This outstanding citizen owns a home, businesses and a shopping center in town with no debt and had no intention of fleeing the country for .40 cents or 100 dollars. He has even been very cooperative with police and given them nearly 2000 fake IDs over 20 years he confiscated from minors which is believed many times all other establishments in Naperville combined times a decent size multiple.

In the opinion of many people in this town he was MANHANDLED by the Naperville Police for his past political views while wasting taxpayer money as it was all handled during OVERTIME PAY by numerous officers.

Please address your feelings on this issue that took place during POLICE OVERTIME and in my opinion a waste of TAXPAYER MONEY for OT.

Unlike your town, which I believe is Aurora, we have establishment folks that are given preferential treatment over non-establishment folks in police matters. Is this something your town of Aurora practices or tolerates? The last time I checked Aurora was running a very professional police department and fighting very serious crime involving drugs and gangs.

I salute the Aurora Police Dept! And if you are one of their members, Mr. POPO, I salute you along with your department. But you have to understand not all police departments are equally professional.

Many bloggers are not criticizing police in general. We are criticizing one department that being Naperville that caters to the establishment at the cost of the non-establishment folks in town.

Thanks in advance for trying to respond more directly to the previous bloggers and my questions!

Mr. Popo,

When you answer the discretion question about arresting someone for DWS also please note whether it makes a difference in that discretion if the perp had a prior for the same offense of DWS. Thank you.

Anonymous IIII / Joe,
If your registration is suspended then I will typically write a citation and let you be on your way-that is what I've been doing for years without any problems. If your drivers license is suspended you probably will get arrested-it does not matter what the suspension is for or how many times you have been arrested. LEADS (program which gives us our information) will typically indicate how and when suspensions were obtained.

Here comes the NGM cult followers. I sure hope the editors monitor this BS as Rodi appears to be a newly recruited sheep member. Go back to the NGM sheep where you belong, in the archieves.

bahhhhhh

Rodi,
I guess you win. Good luck with your lawsuit friend. By the way police will get overtime for their court appearances.

Sure hope the NGM posting will be removed as this is not the blog for that? We really dont need the cult to ruin anymore blogs than they already have?

Moderator Jim to Rodi and Anonymous: Rodi, you post has been removed. You snuck it by but, largely due to Anoymous' intervention, I caught it. It was a thinly-disguised attempt to introduce a Napergatian comment on a different thread, As I said before, talk about what you want re/Napergate...just do it on that thread. I will not be fooled again.

"how can you justify the over time?where i live i hardly see any squad car passing by for weeks.but i see them in groups sitting in gas stations.so you tell me they should get over time or not."
******
First, I would think you do sleep & may not see police go by then....maye when at work? Give me a break...think. Next, I would think they check according to need.

Next, you haven't asked who got the OT...if may be officers that are not suppose to patrol your area getting the OT everyone is complaining about. Critically think....this is not OT for everyone, everywhere & they can be doing "other things" that are not on your street for OT & they should be then!

By Mr Popo on April 23, 2008 1:07 PM
Anonymous IIII / Joe,
If your registration is suspended then I will typically write a citation and let you be on your way-that is what I've been doing for years without any problems. If your drivers license is suspended you probably will get arrested-it does not matter what the suspension is for or how many times you have been arrested. LEADS (program which gives us our information) will typically indicate how and when suspensions were obtained.

By Mr. Popo on April 23, 2008 2:56 PM
Rodi,
I guess you win. Good luck with your lawsuit friend. By the way police will get overtime for their court appearances.

====================================================================
Mr.POPO,

My understanding based on your above posts in response to other bloggers, is that you do not ticket relatives, friends, possibly neighbors, fellow police officers and certain council members you are aligned with politically in your Aurora Police Department.

I think, if this is the case, I believe you are not a PROFESSIONAL POLICE OFFICER as you are trying to portray your self out to be on these blogs.

The laws apply to all of us equally under our constitution.

To say that you "probably" or "typically" make arrests for drivers license suspensions is disturbing.

You should make them with no exception and follow the law as you were sworn to do with no execptions.

If you catch the Aurora Police Chief or Mayor driving drunk, it is your duty to arrest him regardless of the consequences to your job, if you are a true and professional policeman. Plus, you may be saving his life, and one day he will thank you. Possibly promote you when he sobers up.

Police Officers have to learn to do the right thing all the time...not most of the time...with no "proabably" or "typically" type exceptions added.

Thank You!

Colin,

I agree with you that there should not be exceptions and officers should follow the law as they are sworn to do.

There is a group on here that you probably noticed, however, who would disagree with you because when an officer did just that (follow the law) it all of a sudden became a huge multi-agency conspiracy of discrimination.

I also agree, the officer who made the arrest that night could have possibly saved someone's life and should be applauded for removing a driver without a properly enabled license from the roadways whether it was on Overtime or not.

Colin,
Sure the laws apply to everybody. However, we are paid to think and be problem solvers. An arrest or ticket is not ALWAYS the best way to solve a problem. You can spin my answers a million ways, however until you step into police shoes you will never understand why we do the things we do.

For example if I were to pull over woman who had a suspended license and was speeding-I would call her an ambulance and park her car around the corner so she could get to the hospital. The best solution in this scenario would be to take care of the woman-My job is to help people not maximize my arrest total.

Perhaps you would arrest the pregnant woman and throw her in a jail cell. Not me.

Am I going to give another cop a speeding ticket for 10miles over the posted limit? Probably not. Am I going to arrest him if he is beating on his wife? Absolutly.

Police work is not an exact science. Officers are given descretion for a reason. It is in everybody's best interest they are given discretion for the same reason judges are given discretion.

If police threw everybody into jail for the maximum 1yr for driving on a suspended licence do you really think that would be good for society? Of course not.

They leave & get a hot dog when being ticketed & you wonder why officers do what they do! Ugh! Total disrespect! I suppose he was going to "voluntarily come back to the car to accept the ticket!"

Mr. Popo,
On some of your points you do make sense.

I hope you are a different kind of cop. As you know, it was pretty well known that Sgt. Drew Peterson was abusing and possibly allegedly murdering his wives and the entire Bolingbrook Police Dept. looked the other way including a Chief in that town who is a former Naperville Captain.

It sounds like if a cop is going 22 miles over the speed limit you are not going to ticket him but you will ticket a civilian. You need to understand that a cop driving fast in a residential neighborhood is endangering our kids just like a civilian driving 22 miles over the speed limit. Police officers don't seem to get that and use their discretionary powers in very abusive manners.

Last night I asked my fireman friend who just retired from the Fire Dept. after 25 years about professional courtesy. He stated to me he was stopped about 50 times for traffic violations in the last 25 years and was allowed to proceed 49 times, by asking a simple polite question before being ticketed. "Does it matter that I am a FIREMAN." At that point every police officer from every West Suburban Police Dept. told him to have a nice day.

The only exception was a STATE TROOPER on 294 and 55, who told him if you are a FIREMAN, you should know better than to speed and wrote him his ticket for speeding. I asked him how he felt about that STATE TROOPER. He stated initially I disliked what he did to me, but a few days later I really RESPECTED him.

He told me maybe if he knew he could not have gotten all this professional courtesy he would not have sped so much in his lifetime. I asked him now that he is retired, if he continues to receive professional courtesy? He stated retired and active policeman and fireman are all treated the same. They are extended PROFESSIONAl COURTESY even after retirement.

I honestly find this troubling and I hope some political group in this town makes it an issue in the next elections and puts an end to all professional courtesy. It is not only discriminatory but it is very dangerous to residents and especially their children who may suddenly chase after a ball or dog. We all know how hard it is to stop on a residential street if you are going 47 instead of 25. It seems so hypocritical that police officers and firemen that are hired to protect and save our lives, our in fact also endangering them with their reckless behavior.

Think about that, Mr. POPO!

PS. Would you give a fellow police officer a ticket, Mr. Popo, if you caught him driving 22 miles over in a residential neighborhood with kids playing where the speed limit is 25? So far I feel your answers have been honest but evasive such as to Rodi's questions.

Rodi's question to Mr. Popo's were posted on another thread which led me here. I guess they call that cross threading in the blog world.

Lucas,
Sorry to burst your bubble, however not all police are bad citizens or abuse their powers. I have never pulled a cop or fireman over for going 223 miles over the limit and will not and cannot answer the question to what I would do. I have pulled people over-not police- for going 40miles over the posted limit and let them go with a warning due to their special circumstance.

Perhaps you would like to see red light cameras and speed cameras posted on every road in your city trying to catch anyone exceeding the speed limit by 1mph. That may be your opinion, not mine.

These posts are no longer about overtime and instead have turned into posts complaining that the police are bad and only arrest innocent victims post.

Lucas,

To get the full enforcement all across the city one would have to spend much more on police overtime to do that enforcement.

I'm willing to pay for that. Are you?

This is why I have previously laughed at anyone suggesting I am a police officer. I'd be your worst nightmare nailing you and everyone else for every single thing I find wrong, even if your car is parked in your driveway with expired plates. Again, you should be glad I am not one.

I respect Mr. Popo for explaining and adhering to proper discretion. His explanations make perfect sense and sometimes you'll be on the receiving end of that discretion and sometimes you won't. As long as they are operating INSIDE the law while exercising it, I have no problem with that. I would imagine that HOW you behave when approached by an officer makes a difference on how that discretion gets done. Every time I have witnessed someone trying to be defiant or pretend that open court is in session at the place of violation it tends to not go favorably. People who understand their predicament and are respectful without trying to stall/argue tend to benefit from the discretion. Just my personal observations...

TO: Mr Popo

Apparently, whether you write the tickets or don't, your damned.

I have had officers exercise what turned out to be good judgment in both writing me tickets and not writing me tickets depending on a lot of factors. I believe that removing the judgment from the police job would be a huge error for society.

I'm not sure how you can answer for all police on all things, seems like an unreasonable expectation.

I thank you for sharing your experience and honest answers with the blog. And look forward to reading your responses to any reasonable requests for your knowledge.

A&D

Jim, what happened to keeping cult members like Lucas muzzled? As Mr. PoPo has pointed out, he is way off topic.

Mr Popo,

You are very evasive. Much of police overtime is as a result of unnecessary arrests such as emissions or toll violations of drivers without "FAVORABLE STATUS" that can easily and less expensively be handled by someone turning him or her self in the next day voluntarily.

This could avoid a lot of police overtime and force officers to use their time much more wisely focusing on serious crimes such as burglaries, murder, rape where the offenders do not usually turn themselves in voluntarily.

You have been cornered by Rodi and Lucas and have not responded to them directly as you promised you would when you started posting on this thread site supposedly to enlighten us.

Where did Mr. Lucas say he wanted people arrested for going one mile over? You are employing Joe like tactics to change the subject!

What is being demanded of you is that you treat your fellow citizens equally to your fellow officers. What you are showing is that you are a downright arrogant cop who thinks cops are better than citizens.

The laws of our land state if a cop speeds 15 miles over, you write him a ticket as you would write a fellow citizen a ticket. To do otherwise would show arrogance, cockiness and even discrimination towards us taxpayers who pay your salary, Mr. Popo!

We the taxpayers are your boss! We swore you to uphold the law and we expect you to uphold the law. If your friend speeds, treat him the same as a stranger speeding. If you can't do that, turn in your badge to the Aurora Police Chief and resign!

You have exposed yourself as a very bad cop with your use of the words proabably and typically. The bloggers fully understand if a lady is having a baby and going to the hospital you may have to use your discretion and allow her to proceed or even drive her there with your sirens on.

None of the bloggers were talking about such incidents. They were talking about being treated equally to your family members, your next door neighbor, your fellow officers, your friends and your favorite council members for the same EXACT OFFENSES! Why can't you answer specific questions when posed directly instead of dancing around the questions like some sort of ballerina or belly dancer which I assume you are not!!!

I give you credit for not lying. But I will not give you credit for not discriminating. You appear to be an arrogant police officer who discrimiantes and calls it discretion. Discretion is suppose to be used properly. When abuse takes place by a police officer, he can be prosectued and sued. This has happenened many times in Naperville. Consider that a warning, Mr. Popo, that it is in your best interest to stop discriminating before you are caught and sued!

I guess Rodi's post to your comments of yesterday has been placed on another thread not to be mentioned by name. I intend to respond there to those comments to stay within the blog rules.

Thank You!

Lucas,

Your statements are irrational. Here are my responses in bold type after each of your statements:

By Lucas on April 24, 2008 10:06 AM

1. In the case Joe mentions, it went beyond a simple arrest. It ended up to be a night in jail despite the concerned individual having his money in his pocket to bail out immediately. ANSWER: IT HAS BEEN DOCUMENTED THAT IT WAS UNDER 2 HOURS, NOT OVERNIGHT.

2. Removing a safe driver from the road does not help save lives. Having a child not have proper change one evening, does not reflect on her Dad's driving abilities. ANSWER: THE ARREST WAS NOT FOR A CHILD NOT HAVING CHANGE ONE EVENING, IT WAS FOR DRIVING ON A SUSPENDED LICENSE.

3. I agree with JOE that the laws should apply equally to all. I think you know and I know normal procedure for a petty violation as a toll violation is not to incarcerate the individual for 4 hours even if you felt a need to make an arrest instead of allowing voluntary booking which I have reason to believe is very normal in such cases. Arrests can also be made without handcuffing when a person is known to be non-violent and agrees to surrender peacefully and voluntarily by turning himself in. ANSWER: HUMAN DESCRETION IS THE TRIED AND TRUE AMERICAN WAY WHEN IN COMES TO LAW ENFORCEMENT AND COURTS OF LAW. JUDGES AND JURIES USE HUMAN DESCRETION. DO YOU REALLY MEAN YOU WANT EVERYTHING TO BE A COMPUTERIZED "THIS IS THIS, SO THAT IS THAT" WITH NO HUMAN INTERVENTION AND REASON. EVERY SINGLE CASE IS DIFFERENT IN SOME WAY OR ANOTHER. NO TWO CIRCUMSTANCES ARE EVER EXACTLY THE SAME.

4.If you want that to be the law, let the City Council pass a resolution stating there are no exceptions for ANYONE in town for Toll Suspensions or Emission Supensions. Let us see if Chief Dial, Mayor Pradel and the City Council Members would agree to this harsh treatment of mandatory jail time in writing if they were caught in SIMILAR circumstances. My gut feeling is they would never agree to it if it was going to be forced on them with no discretion to wizzle out when it hits home! ANSWER: WHO WANTS THAT OTHER THAN JOE, AND MAYBE YOU? I CAPITALIZED YOUR WORD "SIMILAR". DESPITE SIMILARITIES, NO TWO CIRCUMSTANCES ARE EXACTLY ALIKE. THAT IS WHERE HUMAN DESCRETION COMES IN TO PLAY. IF YOU ARE GOING 10 MILES OVER THE SPEED LIMIT, AND YOU GET STOPPED, YOU DESERVE A TICKET BASED UPON YOUR ACTIONS. IF A POLICE OFFICER USES HIS DESCRETION AND GIVES YOU A VERBAL OR WRITTEN WARNING INSTEAD OF A TICKET FOR WHATEVER REASON EVEN THOUGH YOU DESERVE A TICKET FOR YOUR ACTIONS, ARE YOU GOING TO CLAIM HE HAS ABUSED HIS DESCRETION BECAUSE YOU OBVIOUSLY BROKE THE LAW AND HE DID NOT TICKET YOU? GET REAL. EVEN THOUGH YOU BROKE THE LAW, THE OFFICER WAS WITHIN HIS LEGAL RIGHTS TO USE HIS DESCRETION. HIS DESCRETION TO TICKET YOU WOULD ALSO HAVE BEEN CORRECT BY LAW.

5. In the end, Joe, we taxpayers will probably be shortly suffering a few million dollars of losses because of abuse of discretion against 2 outstanding citizens who don't see eye to eye with those in power. ANSWER: WHAT ABUSE OF DESCRETION? AS THE OFFICER STATED, DRIVING ON A SUSPENDED DRIVERS LICENSE LEADS TO ARREST. "PROBABLY" MEANS VERY UNLIKELY YOU WOULD NOT BE ARRESTED. MEANING SLIM CHANCE OF NOT BEING ARRESTED REGARDLESS OF THE REASON FOR THE SUSPENSION. WHY CAN'T YOU GET IT???

6. Just for the record, Joe, my friend who is an attorney indicated there is a statute of limitations of 2 years for police abuse of discretion cases. So the city is not out of the woods for the other case yet. Something could happen in the next 2 months before the STATUTE OF LIMITATION EXPIRES! ANSWER: NUISANCE SUITS THAT WASTE COURT TIME, AND TAXPAYER'S MONEY.

7. As Mr.Popo said, we will encounter tons of police overtime to defend these cases in addition to 2 million or more in litigation fees. All because we DON'T enforce our laws fairly and evenly in the City of Naperville. It is unfortunate that our leaders can't make changes before litigation takes a serious bite out of our bank accounts! ANSWER: TALK ABOUT ABUSE OF OUR LEGAL SYSTEM FOR THESE TYPES OF LAWSUITS TO GO TO COURT. AT LEAST IT WILL KEEP OUR OFFICERS WELL PAID FOR THEIR TIME IN COURT. OF COURSE THAT IS TO ASSUME ONE OF THE LITIGANTS ON CITY COUNCIL DOESN'T TRY TO CONTROL THE PURSE STRINGS ON POLICE SPENDING, LIKE OVERTIME...CAN YOU SPELL "CONFLICT OF INTEREST"?

Stop the ridiculous overtime spending.

Yes, I agree...can we get back to the topic we should be discussing!

Though I will say I really wonder what a special circumstance can be for 40mph over...but you brough that up.

Moderator Jim to Ken: I don't know, unless I missed it. When? Where? Tell me so I can fix it.
Thanks.

Glad to help you out, Jim. Lucas' post at 10:06am rehashes all the same old arguments and conspiracy theories.

Moderator Jim to Ken: Thanks, got Lucas' post and deleted it. I'm letting Mr. Popo's reply stand because he's new and it's not his fault. I repeat: if you want to discuss Napergate by name or inference please do so on the Napergate archived thread. All Napergatian comments or comments that are Napergatian in disguise will be deleted. Thanks.

P.S.: If you want to write about Napergate, Lucas, you now know where to do it.

Maryann:

your not the BOSS of the police honey as you stated. You might boss your husband around if you have one but that is about it. You are the one who has been repeatedly addressed by the Editors for your liable comments which are always filled with lies so your the last person to be giving advice or lectures.

It is very refreshing that the cult has been reduced to the archieves; some powerful movement... Now, return to the archieves where you belong Maryann.

Maryann,
i still cannot understand why everybody is so hung up on suspended drivers licenses. Police are not the ones that suspend them-those are judges. A suspended license is a suspended license-they are all class A misdemenors-$100 and you are out of jail.

Why are you so hung up on speeding tickets? Law gives me discretion on tickets. I make the decision after i speak to the speeder. If they are pleasant and don't have any priors thy usually get a warning. If they are a jerk they will get as many tickets as I can write.

I also don't give nurses, doctors, or teachers tickets for speeding-within reason. I guess that makes me even worse right? Nurses and doctors could be cutting me open after being shot so i don't want to p$&s them off. And teachers are underpaid/overworked/under appreciated in my opinion so i don't want to make their lives any more difficult. As far as city officials-i could give a rats ass about any of them. ANY OF THEM!!!

I may get sued someday-(not regarding speeding tickets though)cant do anything to stop it. Police are indemnefied so wont have to pay anything out of my pocket.

Lets just say that I am not a tough guy when it comes to speeding tickets as they are not in my list of top 10 priorities.

No more questions on discretion. It is a moot point with me.

To: By the one who values you

Father of baby who had a very high fever- and was sweating like a pig. Beat red face. i could see the pain in the babys eyes-i have kids. He said his baby had a seizure right before he placed him into the car. Though it would take too long for an ambulance to arrive. So i followed dad and baby to hospital and made sure they got their safe-they did not speed the remaining way to the hospital. I would do the same thing if my kids needed immediate medical attention.

review moderator posting 4-20@6:18pm, if your paper is so open to discussion of local issues which are national in scope,WHY ? dooes the Sun refuse to POTLUCK the question.WHAT IS YOUR OPINION ON DIAL FRONTING FOR DRIVERS CERT'S FOR ILLEGAL ALIENS.several bloggers have asked repeatedly for this question,to no avail.thanks in advance.

Mr. Popo,

I am going to take your letter and copy and post it on the thread we can not mention by name. I think those folks will have a field day with your letter.

Sadly, but you may not realize it, your definition of discretion is discrimination.

I am also having some doubts with your statement that that judges are the ones who suspend Driver's Licenses.

My understanding is state agencies like the Toll Authority and the Secretary of State are the ones that suspend Driver's Licenses...not Judges!

Many of us learned this by being on these threads for a while. I think you go to the judge to ask for your license back by proving the State Agencies are wrong or accepting a certain amount of suspension time because the State Agencies are right.

It does seem like you are an arrogant guy who made yourself judge, prosecutor, defense attorney and police officer on the streets by deciding who should get a ticket and who should not get a ticket for the same violation. That is not what a good policeman is about. I am sure some con artists types play you for a fool, when they say "How is your day going, Mr. Police Officer" and being the sucker you are, you let them go.

I have a nurse girl friend who never got a ticket by the NPD when she was a bubbly young pretty nurse in her twenties. Now that she is an older nurse and in her upper forties, she always gets a ticket by the NPD. To me this is a form of discriminatioon practiced by Chief David Dial and the NPD.

It has becoming ever more apparent to many of us bloggers that discetion in police terms means DISCRIMINATION.

You also showed you are a self-centered ba$t@&d worried about the consequences to yourself instead of being concerned about upholding the law in an equal and fair fashion to all. How selfish that you won't give a doctor a ticket because you are worried he may take it out on you if you ever need an operation. You have no concern that he may run over a neighborhood kid speeding that is not one of your kids. Only concern is the one in a thousand chance that he would operate on you.

Not all people are discriminators like you, Mr. Popo. I can assure you whether you gave that doctor a ticket or not, he would treat you with extreme professionalism when operating on you. He would never abuse you as you have been absuing citizens with your street discrimination.

Your fears of others discrminating against you is based on the fact that you DISCRIMINATE! Once you stop your discrimination, your fear of others discriminating against you will dissipate and disappear!

Good luck, my friend in getting some psychological rehabilitation.
Hopefully, we won't be charged overtime for your treatment.

Moderator Jim to Mr. Quigley: I don't understand your question.

Mr. Popo...

:-) ;-)

Thank you first for the thoughts on teachers! Though I certainly would not be one to abuse that idea. It is nice that SOME recognize our efforts, though I still myself don't think it is an excuse for speeding. And I can't say I never have of course. I don't think anyone on this planet can say they haven't?! How does that happen...your young one day thinking nothing will happen while you speed...everyone else does it etc & overnight you are yelling at others for passing you by speeding, calling them crazy! HA!
:-)

As for the special ciricumstance...I was hoping it was something like that & was just thinking you might like to say, so others do not go nuts on you on this blog...they don't need any excuses even to do that unfortunately! I agree...takes forever for ambulances sometimes and having had a student seize in my class last fall...totally blows your mind since it is so unexpected (but what do they say...no one expects the Spanish Inquisition...something about this blog brought that to mind when I said 'unexpected'..ha!) I'm surprised the father kept it together at all with it being his own child! Thanks for helping him!

Rachael...

Try thinking...officers have discretion just like ANYONE else! First, parents have discretion in punishing their children. Authoritarian parents will punish no matter what & with the worst punishment & this is not helping the child's psychological growth. Authoratative parenting styles use discretion & critically think of the circumstances and appropriate punishment of the time and other factors. Now teachers use this same discretion, doctors, officers etc.

I believe your nurse friend was shown this discretion when young & obviously she has not learned from this so she should be ticketed now if she is still speeding & abusing this discretion. It may have nothing to do with that fact that she was a "pretty young thing" as in just her age of first offenses etc. Think about this...I get a young first time cheater in my classroom I will talk with them about this...if they repeat over time...they get the F! If it is an older adult student should they know better by their age not to cheat? If they say, "I didn't know I was cheating" would you buy that as much as a young student? You may think it is "other factors" but it may be darn good logical reasons.

As for doctors being professionals & not having a poor attitude if they were ticketed...I assure you not all would. Thinking of some I know myself who are are just as human as others! They are no different than other occupations having bias. They are not suppose to I grant you that, but they are not immune from it! You can take that chance! Will I agree with you that it may make a difference going 50 over in a school zone during school hours...these are the discretions they take into mind!

Rachel,
Calm down. I don't think you get it. Law says that i dont need to give everybody a ticket evert time they get pulled over.

You need to stop getting so personal and relax-you are getting way too excited. This post is for a debate. No sense in getting mad. Maybe sometime you will get a break too.

By the way i won't give any religious leaders (ie. priests, rabbis, immams) tickets to speed either. within reason - scarred they are going to get God on my badside. :)

Sorry Folks,

But I agree with Rachael. This discretion is being used to discriminate against those who you don't like from those whom you do like.

Discretion makes it very easy to give Chief Dial and Mayor Pradel breaks if their kids abuse toll booths without their knowledge resulting in their license suspensions also without their possible knowledge. They should not be above the law and be exempt from spending the night in the Naperville Jail House.

The more this debate goes on, the more one sees that Naperville Police Officers are taught to discriminate in the name of discretion.

Discretion allows police officers to give their fellow police officers breaks all the time for speeding even more so when they get older. Unlike the nurse, where discretion stops at age 40, police officers never learn or get wiser because DISCRETION for them almost becomes MANDATORY when they are over 40. And it even continues in their golden years when they are retired and should have learned not to speed. But the poor nurse is held accountable at age 40 and also in her golden years of retirement. Seems unfair to me!

Discretion allows police officers to give breaks to the party in power while giving no breaks to the party out of power.

Discretion allows police officers to give pretty girls a break and not so pretty girls, the HAMMER if they so choose.

Discretion allows firemen and possibly doctors to speed and endanger our kids knowing they have no consequences to be held accountable for as a result of their actions.

Discretion allows police officers to give the Wehrli's and Moser's breaks all the time with no fear of facing any consequences for their DISCRIMINATION in the name of DISCRETION!

If 2 people are speeding 15 miles over the speed limit, they should be ticketed equally unless of course we have an emergency such as a hospital situation.

If the "good guys" are always given breaks their records will always show no prior violations...lol...

If the so called "bad guys" are never given a break their records will always show prior violations...dah...

Personally, I hope this issue becomes a hot issue in the next election and we can put an end to the discriminatory practices of Chief David Dial which has been described as fascism by the Illinois Alcohol Beverage Task Force and as discriminatory by an Internal Committee of American Telephone and Telegraph in Naperville also known at ATT.

Thank you!

How did this discussion venture into suspended licenses when we were discussing overtime pay?

Doesn't make sense.

The one about the roller disco seems to exemplify my point.

Moderator Jim to Joe: Your last comment was not posted to this thread because it was a Napergatian issue as evidenced by your mention of "Abbey" the dog. Please stick to the rules.

Just post it on the Napergate Thread, Joe. We would like to see what issues you now have with Abby the dog!

Caroline

Moderator Jim:

Fair enough. I should have mentioned overtime in the post. I'll post it in the other thread, thank you for being fair about it.

Sorry LIEbert,
Let's not bear false witness here. You know your post is full of lies, and misinformation. You're not preaching to the cult choir on this thread. Your twisted reality is better received by your fellow conspiracy theorists on another thread who are still ignorant enough to buy in to your many false, and twisted assertions.

I'm glad you live in Chicago, and not Naperville. Your time could be better spent working to get the Chicago police out there fighting crime, and murder on your city streets instead of spending your time trying to character assasinate the NPD on these blogs with your ridiculous comments.

I don't think people in their right minds want police discretion eliminated unless they have a political agenda like yours.

By the way, LIEbert, the overtime figure for last year does not reflect all the overtime money reimbursed by event organizers that goes back in to the city's general fund, according the the Sun article last week.

Moderator Jim to Joe: No problem.

Not to defend others at all...but it is a bit understandable how posters do get into 'about what police do' because it is addressing the idea of what they are getting for their money, including OT money...the value...but they are not bringing concluding remarks back to it.

Now if we look at the problem, some do not feel the OT is worth the value they are getting. Why? This might be where NPD might want to place some effort IF it is enough of a problem they feel it is worth it. What can be done to change those misperceptions? IF not done already, perhaps some type of yearly report to the public on how many of certain things are done and where the money is spent or maybe just for the OT if that makes sense? Sorry for my ignorance if this is done already, but if it is, perhaps posting it here & making the posters aware of it may help. Perhaps they have not seen it.

The idea is there is misperception always by some for anything...changing the misperceptions can help & some have suggested here to do a ride along, but I'm not sure that would be the best approach for many reasons including for the money (especially since people are complaining already on what money is being spent on). The number of ride alongs that would need to be done etc...? So maybe some other idea which could change those misperceptions should be brainstormed a bit.

Mr. Popo...

Just my opinion...and God only knows how much I may or may not be in God's good favor...any religious leader who tries to do that I believe God would be more upset with him! And all your good would cancel out I would think or pull you over the positive side more in God's eyes! ;-)

SNT Gangmember,

You seem like a gang member trying to impose your rule of the jungle here on Jim's Blog Site.

Liebert spoke the truth that is obvious to all us. Even Mr. Popo, Police Officer, and Mrs. of the Police Officer over the last few months confirmed what he said about Discretion in essensce being a form of Discrimination that does not belong in a progressive city like Naperville.

Why should we not believe Liebert? Because a gangster is telling us he is "lying" because he can not provide any facts to dispute or refute what he is telling us.

I can see why the group we can not mention here has called you a member of the Gang of Five. You guys are a very sick gang that should be taken off the streets of Naperville.

My greatest hope is the Gang of Five are not members of the NPD.

I would like to see Moderator Jim to stand up to this Gang of Five.

They have taken over all your threads and tried to control free speech. They have requested that you ban one of our 2 legitimate parties in town from certain threads that bring us truth and facts so they can spew their poison, deceit and lies. Is this democracy, allowing free speech by one party and suppressing free speech by another?

I think you threads would improve substantially if you would ban this Gang of Five from your threads. Banish them permanently!
They are thugs and trouble makers. Not representative of Napervillians.

Please don't be pressured by such bulllies. There is no place for them but Joliet Correctional Facility. In due time if their behavior on the street resembles their behavior on your blog site, that is where they will end up and die!

Hope to see you show some backbone and stand up to this Gand of 5 Thugs.

If Chief David Dial will not help you deal with this GANG OF FIVE THUGS, I am sure the FBI would love to take them on. Just give them a call!

Thanks Moderator!

I missed it Ralph...what did any of that cult drivel you just spewed out have to do with police overtime? Or is the cult just trying to hijack yet another topic?

Ralph, Liebert etc...

Man what is the problem? These officers who are posting are not saying if they see some doctor, preacher etc driving 50 miles over in a school zone etc they are not going to go after them. There is a big difference in what they are saying & what you are understanding! I mean if I can understand that than why can't others...

Discrimination does mean distinguishing between one stimuli & another also, which would mean distinguishing between someone who is going 50 over in that school zone vs a father with a child seizing. This is a good reason and not discrimination. I guess we should just ticket you if you were going over rushing to the hospital? You would then be all over the news complaining they did!

Whose banned? People who do not stay on topic, are not respectful & who just whine or angrily lash out perhaps...they should be. If you are respectful & discuss your ideas that is fine. You can't complain about the officers if you are not acting in a social appropriate manner yourself. Those who have an opposing idea is fine...that is what this is all about. You can disagree but just because you disagree does not mean they should be banned. The same freedom of speech which allows your views (if on topic & respectful) does allow the opposing view to post.

Finally, do NOT say you represent all Naperville citizens! Trust me you do not! This would be a False Consensus on your part no different than when I student thinks the whole class agrees which their gripe!

Ralph,
You are doing a great job perpetuating the lies, misinformation, twisted reality, and fantasy world of your cohorts in your post directed to me. There is not a thread of truth to any of your assertions as you try to apply them to me.

Your laughable comments don't really deserve the courtesy of a response, but I will point out that I have never requested banning, or censoring anyone on these blogs. Not even LIEbert or D.Bone.

People...OT!!!!

Lets get back to that...now lets try this...would it make a difference to you if the person who got what?? 45K of OT was instead 2 officers getting 22.5K? Is it just that one person got such an amount? If you knew someone was making sure this was certainly on the up & up and was giving to the community not just someone on his/her duff would that make a difference to you?

I hear some of you saying no OT at all, which just does not make sense since other occupations get OT & OT was put into place for darn good reasons.

If it not just the idea of OT in general, then what is the problem? You can't just talk about "all officers" or "ones you feel who are not doing a good job...even if they were not" since they may not be the ones getting the OT in the first place.

As I have said on other threads today, 12 Police Officers on OT monitoring 4 liquor establishments on Chicago Ave with 500-1000 patrons and NO Police Officers monitoring 4 liquor establishments with 500-1000 patrons in a NW PLAZA in Naperville makes absolutely no sense to me.

Chicago Ave is in the midst of safe central Naperville. The NW Plaza borders gang infested Aurora. Aurora is the murder capital of all the Chicago Suburbs far and away, each and every year.

It sounds like we are giving Police OT for no good reason. We are even putting School Cops on Chicago Ave. because the schools are closed and we don't know what to do with them since we have too many cops in Naperville really doing nothing but hassling grandmas for going 36 in a 25 mile speed zone for a split second while stepping on the gas for a moment.

By the way I agree fully with Ralph and Liebert posts!

Ken should not be allowed to go from thread to thread hassling the other group members especially since they are not allowed to come here and speak their minds as they wish in the spirit of the 1st Amendment!

If Chief Dial knew what he would be doing he would use the School Cops to protect Strip Centers bordering Aurora. Those strip centers pay more than their fair share of taxes. The downtown businesses and landlords are heavily subsidized by the taxpayers and do not contribute to their excessive police security.

Let them hire their own security. The cops should be servicing those who pay for their services...not those who do not even pay for their own parking that is almost 100% subsidized by residential homeowners and non-downtown businesses!

And most importantly let us end this discretion(not hospital cases) that is being used as a cover and disguise for discrimination!

So Stuart, are you saying that you would approve police overtime as long as they would help you suppress my right to free speech here? If someone disagrees with you, they are "hassling" you?

Now you have the idiotic suggestion that private security should patrol public property to save on overtime. Where is your proof that all the downtown patrols are by cops on overtime? Seems like this is speculation on your part.

By the way, anyone going 36 in a 25 speed zone deserves a ticket whether they are grandma's or not.

Stuart...

I'm not sure why you can't read previous posts & understand that 12 or so officers are for all of downtown & not just that area is what has been said. Please keep up...it isn't a hard thing to do.

I agree with Ken...to complain about OT & then suggest private is crazy. And I also agree on his hassling point....so then you would be hassling us also...so then no one gets to post. Oh boy!

And ya...my parents are grandparents & if they are doing that they deserve a ticket also...the difference is they are respectful & would know they deserve it & not complain about an officer just trying to make them & all of us safe!

By One Who Values You! on April 27, 2008 2:40 AM
Stuart...
I'm not sure why you can't read previous posts & understand that 12 or so officers are for all of downtown & not just that area is what has been said. Please keep up...it isn't a hard thing to do.

--------------------------------------------------

One Who Values Himself,

I have been to Chicago Ave. in the summers. One evening I counted 6 bike cops, 2 motorcycle cops, 2 SUVs and one police car on Chicago Ave. The 2 SUV Police vehicles and one police car had 4 officers and were parked in the middle of the street occupying the left turn lane on to Washington.

At one point 2 Park District Police Officers on bikes came by to say hi. But they only stayed for a few minutes and returned to the Riverwalk.

Besides these 12 cops on Chicago Ave., there were other police vehicles circulating downtown I assume to check on Jillys, the Frog House and the bars on Jefferson.

That group we can not name on this site, is right when they say 12 cops are stationed in the summer on that intersection.

And not one of you City Supporters have explained why no cops are stationed on that NW Plaza with 4 liquor establishments that borders Aurora, the murder capital of the Chicago Suburbs.

Unless you City Supporters can give some explanations, more and more bloggers are flocking to support the group you despise for some reason unbeknown to the rest of us.

They seem to give us the facts. You guys give us nothing...absolutely nothing!

Let us see how long your numbers can hold out at 5 WEAK!

--------------------------------------------

PS. The motorcycle cops really irked me the most as they seem to be showing off their spanking new motorcycles with all the whistles and horns taxpayer money could buy, to the bubbly blondes on Chicago Ave.

Kathleen,

Why don't you call the NPD and ask how many officers patrol the beat on the NW side of the city.

I would venture a guess is because I have never seen families pushing kids in a stroller at that time of night in that plaza (I assume you are speaking of the one with Brookdale Music and Wendy's ??)

It's not a family place on those nights/times. I've seen kids out with parents after 11PM in downtown. As a parent, I wouldn't do that personally because I feel at that time of night kids should be home in bed, but others do it. They are a vulnerable target to anyone who wants to start some crap w/ a potentially defenseless victim.

Keeping many officers in sight helps remind everyone that help is close by and if you start anything it will end real fast, so don't try to start anything.

The crowd make-up plays a role in what proximity you want police to be to an area.

Kathleen & "Himself"...

First, do you ever think that maybe there is a reason to have that many on a particular night & a particular time. Maybe they have heard something is up & perhaps it is just a weak one, but want to still have eyes & ears around. What the heck is the problem with them coming up & talking for a bit...saying hi how is it going etc. I don't have a problem with that. Just because "You don't know" what is going on, doesn't mean there is not a darn good reason. Are you claiming this happens like this every single night. Must be just when I am going down the street that I don't even see a one! Maybe they are all getting together to let all the other officers know that I'm coming down the street soon "She's coming...Run for your life!" and they all scatter before I get there! I'm just so damn ugly I guess...they don't want to be observed not opening a door for me & have others claim they are discriminating against me because I'm not a "pretty young thing" anymore...wait was I ever??? Well young at atleast! :-) I love seeing the officers...they make me feel safe. We had the same crazy idea also that if people saw officers walking around the school they would feel unsafe...Good God!

BTW...I just had my soon to be 11 yr old niece in here giving me the "girls report" on video games, snacks & getting me off the computer to get ready to go see the Spiderwick movie, so I asked her & her 3 friends if they liked seeing the officers in downtown Naperville (or wherever they are) when we walk at night with all the pretty lights. My niece said she liked them. When I asked why she said, "because they are nice & will help you cross the street" (oops...she must be a 'pretty young thing'...maybe I can gets some help just tagging along with her) and when I asked if she would rather more or less she said more because they make her feel safe." Oh my...at almost 11 yrs old she gets it. Of course a few are younger...one commented just girls should be officers...boys are icky...to which the others chirped in she is just mad because her boyfriend moved away. :-) BTW....2 officers live on their street, one is their friend's dad. You should have heard the further conversation on cute boys & why the Barbies they have out do not have clothes on...but we have to start another post on kids for that! :-) Later...I'm being yelled at again to get off!