NPD overtime uproar: Part II

Moderator Jim,

You editorial was way too soft as usual.

You have not addressed why we need 12 cops on Chicago Ave to handle 4 bars with 500-1000 patrons and not a single cop in the NW Plaza in Naperville to handle 4 liquor establishments with also 500-1000 partons.

Since we don't need any cops in the NW Plaza, it should follow we don't need any cops stationed on Chicago Ave.

Since we really don't need all these cops on Chicago Ave. we are wasting money be it regular time or overtime funds on cops.

A couple of cop cars circulating the downtown area is fine. No need to station all these cops for show and tell at taxpayer expense!

Like anyone else I would expect that there is always going to be some overtime associated with police work. I do not however think it is an unreasonable expectation that those entrusted with managing the police payroll and approving overtime be operate within policies that will prevent waste and abuse.

That was until I received the current May-June 2008 issue of Bridges in the mail today from the City of Naperville. After reading the front page article on how the city allocates SECA funds all I can ask is WHAT IN THE HELL IS GOING ON?

Let me see if I've got this straight:
1. The city collects a city wide !% food tax
2. The city decides which charities are to benefit by receiving proceeds from this tax.
3. The city awarded the Exchange Club and Jaycees $100,000 for police and fire protection at the Ribfest and Last Fling.
4. Then the city charges the Exchange Club and Jaycees for the overtime cost of police and fire protection.
5. The overtime is charged against the police department budget but the money is deposited into the general fund. And in the same breath the city council is telling the police chief to reduce overtime expense by 5%.

THERE ARE TWO ASPECTS OF THIS TRANSACTION THAT I FIND PERSONALLY DISTURBING. I don't know if they are illegal, but they sure look suspicious.

First, the city collects a SECA tax. The same people who get to vote to decide on what will be taxed and at what rate then get to vote at a later date who will get the proceeds of that tax. In this case the city collected $100,000 in tax then "gave" it to the Exchange Club and the Jaycees and then turned around and billed them for the same money they just gave them. The net effect is that the city council laundered $100,000 from a special tax thru these non-profit organizations into the general fund. Why in the world are all these transactions necessary? Why can't the tax pay for the police cost directly without all the need for the accounting and billing?

Second, the city gave the Exchange Club and the Jaycees $100,000. Ribfest is a 4 day event. Last Fling is a 3 day event. 7 days total. I believe I read in a Naperville Sun that police overtime costs were about $54.00 per hour. Let's see... $100,000 divided by $54.00 equals 1,852 manhours of overtime. Ok, then 1,851 manhours divided by 7 days of work equals 265 hours worked each day of the event. That follows that 265 hours divided by 8 hours in a shift equals 33 police and firemen working every single day of Ribfest and Last Fling. Are you kidding me 33 police and firemen? Yes, these are large events. But putting this into perspective the normal sworn officers on duty for all of Naperville... that is 24 hours a day, 7 days a week is somewhere between 36 and 38. And for one event in a city park downtown we need 33?

It is also interesting to note that the City of Naperville dictates how many officers are needed for these events. Call me a skeptic, but I'm just willing to place an extemely high wager that the police union is pretty highly involved in helping decide these staffing numbers. There is no doubt we need additional police and fire services for special events, but 33?

There is a big difference between responsible staffing levels and sucking the hind tit. Yeah, the big sucking sound you are hearing right now is coming from 1350 Aurora Avenue. It's the sound of knowing you've just gotten busted with your hand in the cookie jar.

The problem is...from a cognitive standpoint, people tend to always remember the 1 bad time rather than all wonderful times. Heck just think of childhood memories, classroom experiences, even people you have dated! :-) This is in general for any memory & certainly would be the case with officers unfortunately, due to the nature of their job. And heck, lets be honest, for many people when they see an officer it is because they have not be behaving in a socially appropriate manner, so it is similar to a parent or teacher telling you how bad you were & you may get punished. All those feelings return. People will act just like they did when they were kids...ha! Lets just escape & walk in the other room when mom or dad is giving us a talking to...now I walk away & get a hot dog instead! HA! See this is our fault...they did it as kids & got away with it at home & school & now they are still throwing temper tantrums as adults! :-) And...kids in the back seats are learning attitudes & how to behavior with officers from their parents who acting inappropriately! Ugh!

You don't tend to hear people brag about how wonderful the officers are when your having a nice lunch or at a bar relaxing. :-) People will surely add their poor experience when they hear another mentioned one, but many just don't start off "I gotta tell you about this wonderful police officer." As a result, people have an impression of the negative more than the positive. It is no different than other jobs, unless you are outstanding & get a big reward, people tend to remember the best & worst & the ones in between, that do a great job routinely, just do not get added in the memory calculator. Perhaps that is what we should do...have a place where people can show their appreciation to officers more routinely. I'm not talking about huge life saving events where officers do get yearly recognition, but those that still did amazing jobs for us each day. Perhaps if they were rewarded, even with a simple 'thank you' letter more rountinely, it would help with the stress of those people in the community who totally disrespect them. If it also was a place where community members could view they may have a very different impression. How many times are parents thanked by kids (other than mothers & father's day) for the day in & day out things they have done? How about Teachers...? Instead you hear "It's not fair"..."Susie's mom lets her..." ETC! No different...unfortunately!

Perhaps we should get something put together for the week of May 15th, National Police Memorial Day & Police Week, so the community members can thank officers in even a very simple way (letter etc) who have helped in wonderful ways. Wouldn't it be a lovely value to teach children...to honor each year the men & women who keep all of us safe!

Moderator Jim to Stuart: Had to delete your last comment, Stuart. The "driving drunk" reference was overboard....something of that nature needs corroboration. Sorry.

Moderator Jim,

I learned that information from your blog site on Furstenau's Threads. It was posted over and over again and was allowed to be posted albeit not by you, but by Host Ted.

I guess you and Host Ted have two different standards when Moderating or Hosting whichever it may be...

I will see if I can find my post and delete the part about driving drunk. I have no problem obeying all rules as long as I know what they are.

Most importantly, thanks for letting me know where I went astray so I can repair and hopefully with your permission repost!

Moderator Jim to Stuart: No problem...just fix and repost. Thanks.

Moderator Jim,

Your editorial also sidestepped discriminatory practices of the NPD which are disguised as discretion which outraged your bloggers both on the Napergate and Police OT threads.

You seemed to experience how it all worked when you got pulled over and pulled out your Uncle's NYPD Detective Card.

Many of us don't have such a card and are given the most ruthless treatment imaginable as you were, before you pulled out your card that stopped the unpleasant behavior of the cop towards yourself and family.

Bottom line, your editorial woud have received much more respect from your readers and bloggers if you had called for the end of Naperville Police discrimination under the cover and disguise of discretion.

It would have also been nice if you called for the end of Professioanl Courtesy which allows Naperville Police to speed and committ other traffic violations while possibly endangering young children in our neighborhoods!

Stuart, one alleged case of discriminatory discretion does not make it rampant throughout the department. There is nothing to call an end to.

Reposted from the Napergate thread as a clarification due to the crossover between police OT and Napergate from Jim Lynch's original blog post...

Moderator Jim to A&D: Good point, A&D. I may have opened up a hornet's nest here without thinking since police OT and Napergate seem to be intertwined. So...after careful consideration I will allow Napergatians to introduce issues on this new police OT thread. But it has be on this thread only i.e. the one marked "OT Part II" and, of course, you're free to comment on the Napergate thread as well. The only thing I ask is that the Napergatians keep things under control by staying on point with the overtime issue. Please do not go off on other Napergatian tangents...like the tollway etc. etc. Those topics should - and must - be confined to the Napergate thread. Thanks in advance for everyone's cooperation.

Mr. Jim Lynch,

Thanks for allowing Napergatians to come back on the Main Page and offer their thoughts.

What "By Anonymous on April 26, 2008 2:59 PM" did in his post is the same thing the Napergate Man used to do in his Napergate Series of ads. The first thing that came to mind was could this be the Napergate Man posting anonymously?

But back on subject. That was really a remarkable post.

Again the taxpayers are socked and soaked! We are charged 1% for sales tax, of which $100,000 is donated to the Jaycess and Exchange Club, which ends up for police overtime while we believed our money is being donated to CHARITY!

Of course this is a Napergate Issue. Napergate means cover-up and here we see a cover-up of sorts. Read the below sentences from anonymous:

"The net effect is that the city council laundered $100,000 from a special tax thru these non-profit organizations into the general fund. Why in the world are all these transactions necessary? Why can't the tax pay for the police cost directly without all the need for the accounting and billing?"

Anonymous hit is right on the nail. He discovered a cover-up. How dare City Officials take our money in claims of donating it for charity and use it for police overtime.

My God this is a Charity Event. The citizens are donating to charity and the NPD is taking all the money in OT PAY! Unbelievable!!!

Here is a perfect example where police officers should step up and donate their services to CHARITY. How dare they take our charitiable donations for their overtime pay.

I hope the Napergatian Party ousts the Establishment Party in the next election and finally restores law and order to this lost town.

PS. I am a first time poster, Mr. Lynch, so if anyone has already taken my first name which use to be very common, I am willing to change it for the sake of identification on this blog site. Thank you for allowing me to post.

By One Who Values You! on April 26, 2008 5:15 PM
The problem is...from a cognitive standpoint, people tend to always remember the 1 bad time rather than all wonderful times. Heck just think of childhood memories, classroom experiences, even people you have dated! :-) This is in general for any memory & certainly would be the case with officers unfortunately, due to the nature of their job.

====================================================================

If you do your police work right, the citizens will respect you and like you. If you do it in a discriminatory manner with favoritism, the citizens will disrespect you and dislike you whether it is OT or not OT.

It is well known the Napergate Man did police work. As has been reported on other threads, today, he confiscated over 2000 fraudulent IDs from minors over a decade or two. I have never heard of one person complain he was bad because of this POLICE WORK he did. In fact he seemed to be admired except for a small group who roam these threads like lost souls attacking him and his supporters.

If the NPD did their job without bias and favoritism, they would be respected in this town. If they donated some of their services they would be respected in this town just like the Napergate Man is highly respected.

It is horrfic and horrifying that we find out today that $100,000 of money the citizens/taxpayers were forced to donate to chartiy from a 1% sales tax ended up in Police OT. And the NPD wants our respect! How laughable!

Mr Lynch, while I appreciate the Suns investigation, how come you have not determined what the actually figures. It has been reported that the Ribfest/Lastfling are paid by the originzations and the City in their great accounting, cant figure out how to put that money back into the police funds. The actually amount costing tax payers is probably alot less than what you are reporting. Are you looking into that part of the story?

Thanks and keep up the good work.

ModeratorJim to Anonymous: That's a very salient point regarding the festivals and their reimbursements etc. We'll look into that. Thanks.

Regarding "By Jim Lynch, moderator on April 26, 2008 6:53 PM" your post giving Napergatians a chance to post again, I just want to say if these 5 disgruntled individuals are so disturbed when they hear about the Napergate Man, the Napergatians, or the Napergate Party, why could they just not skip over the posts that bother them.

Many of us love to read these Napergate oriented posts.

Your posts are not required reading like in a grade school. They are optional reading.

With hundreds, maybe soon to be thousands of posts per day on your blog site, why can't this disgruntled group of 5 just skip over the posts they don't like. After reading Joe and Ken twice each, I have skipped over all their posts. I never complained to you, Mr. Lynch about them. I just chose not to read their repetitive nonsensical ignorant posts as my time is precious.

This is a country of free speech.

If residents think the Napergatians make no sense, I suspect a well educated community like Naperville would see right through their nonsense.

I suspect this tiny group of rebels feels the Napergatains are making a little too much sense so they have been on a mission to discredit them at any opportunity possible.

If you study your threads carefully these 5 individuals are everywhere on all your threads trying to moderate and host them instead of simply being participants like the rest of us.

I congratulate you Mr. Lynch for the decision you made today. It showed me you finally saw through all the nonsense. It showed you were going to regain control of your own Blog Site! It is yours! Not theirs!

The Naperatians were never trying to control your blog site. They were just looking for ONE SINGLE THREAD to blog on in a free and open manner on your Main Page.

When they were denied that, they were content to blog on an old archived thread making it the most interesting and successful thread in the history of your Blog Site with the postings there soon to exceed the 1000 mark!

Guess who chased and followed after them there on the Napergate Thread, Mr. Lynch! This group of 5! What does that tell you about what is going on here, right on Mr. Lynch's Blog Site! It seems very clear to me and it seems to finally be very clear to you as you have finally seen through all this manipulation. Kudos to you Mr. Lynch for finally seeing the light and the truth. Keep up the excellent work!

You are doing a remarkable job. Free unhindered expression is what will propel your blog site to unbelievable highs!!!

There is no need to concentrate your efforts on giving 5 souless individuals their daily highs! It is time they stopped being so cheap on themselves and bought a bottle of vodka and got high the old fashioned way before blogging ever existed!

You hit it on the head mr. lynch,you described a very casual use of a professional courtesy card. This has been covered by a past bloger. One firemen said 49 out 50 times he drove away after legitimate traffic stop. one officer refused him PC , and that surprised him.The budget,overtime,EXTREME PC,use of discretion,no working IAD,Double and triple dipping,residents afraid to contact IAD with complaints for fear of harrassment, several other problems which are on the horizon and will be discussed if you allow. Yes ,we are trying to bring DOJ/FBI. PLS do not pitch this . thank you SUN.

Congrats and kudos to Stuart,moya and mr. lynch. We all support the good cops, however in illinois we have proven court guilty verdicts from many jurisdiction involving criminal misconduct by peace officers/policemen and policewomen. I do not want to go to feds,to settle problems which should be handled locally.If you want to save $$$$ for taxpayers then help us with a forum.

All I can say to you, Moya, is yawn. You finally get the chance for meaningful debate on police overtime and all you can do is show the typical intolerance of a cult member.

The only thing about the cult members that disturbs me is the constant use of supposition as fact. A perfect example of this is shown above where cult members imply that the NPD is complicit in the charity tax scam. As it has already been stated that the NPD is forced to take the charge for reimbursed overtime, this does not even make sense. However, the napergatian cult will act like it is fact.

Speaking of acting like something is a fact, Moya, the napergate man was not doing police work. All liquor selling establishments are required by law to confiscate false IDs. He is doing what the law requires, nothing more, nothing less. If other stores or bars are proved to be ignoring this law, they should lose their liquor licenses. Either way, just because he did his job does not accord him the special privilege of driving around on a suspended license.

I am amazed at how many people here want to force the police to do their job and call it charity. How many of these same people would be willing to go into their job on their day off and work for free because someone else decides it is the charitable thing to do? And how would the citizens know when the cops were on the clock or just being charitable? What would the legal ramifications of a off duty uniformed cop on charity duty making arrests be? Better yet, what would the legal ramifications be of a city requiring its police force to work for free and calling it charity?

I think Jim put it just right in his commentary. Some of you are so blinded by your hate and contempt for the police that you cannot fairly asses the job they do, much less the issue of overtime.

First poster...

If you had 500-1000 patrons equally split (sure!) between the 4 establishments downtown that would be 125-250 per establishment. Now 12 officers divided by 4 is 3 per establishment. Of course you can do this by the total also but just to make it nice & neat that is 1 officer per 42-83 patrons who are INTOXICATED also! Ya, that seem like too many to me also! RIGHT! There should be more in my opinion! Unless of course you are going to give them a bunch of mega Tasers!

Now Anonymous...as usually you leave out a key logical element! You neglect to say how many people attend Ribfest at any particular hour. I will even let you go on not even critically thinking about the fact that it may not be evenly split, as anyone could figure out certain hours, like evening, would be even more crowded & need more than 33 & at other times even less. 38 for total Naperville may be fine for routine day & some hot events but at a big event where you have all these people condensed & many intoxicated, hot in the sun where tempers fly, heck just think of how some families get during the holidays & now you got all these people together. Do you even attend this event to see what goes on? Perhaps one of the officers can post how many on avg are at the ribfest at any given hour, how many are arrested etc.

I'd like to also know then what you think our State & Federal Govt does deciding how much tax & how to spend it each year? Heck, our school raises their tuition & then decides how to spend it. Businesses do it all the time. You are certainly welcome to decide on new representation in your govt if you do not agree with how they decide to spend it, but that is their job to do so! To say it is illegal? I just don't get it how you would not know this is done?

Please also be respectful with your language. It just makes you look even worse and who is going to respect your ideas then. There is no need to offend, you then do not look any better than the people you are complaining about.

To Moya...

The problem with your reply to me is that many do their job right but that people only remember the few times & generalize to all other police officers. They say "NPD" rather than the specific officers who are a problem. This is generalization & no different than someone having a few bad experiences with a man & generalizing to all males, with one Latino & generalizing to all Latinos or one teenager & generalizing to all teenagers.

If everyone skips over replies they do not like where is the communication which aids (or should if people are respectful) in working on a solution? That is like saying I'll ignore my kid or spouse if they are saying something I don't agree with etc. In fact, that is what you are complaining about...that others do not listen to you...well what do you expect if you do not listen to others.

By Ken on April 27, 2008 1:22 AM

Speaking of acting like something is a fact, Moya, the napergate man was not doing police work. All liquor selling establishments are required by law to confiscate false IDs. He is doing what the law requires, nothing more, nothing less. If other stores or bars are proved to be ignoring this law, they should lose their liquor licenses. Either way, just because he did his job does not accord him the special privilege of driving around on a suspended license.

Ken,
Yes, Ken, all liquor selling establishments are required by law to confiscate false IDs. But somehow the Napergate Man confiscates 200 a year while the average liquor licensee in Naperville confiscates 1 false ID every 3 years according to Dupage County Court Records provided from City of Naperville Police Records.

Can you explain why the Chief Dial and the NPD revoked the Napergate Man's license and let all the others slide with such poor performance? Could it be because they put electon posters in their windows supporting the Establishment Slate? How much Police OT money was spent in those 2 lengthy Napergate Kangaroo Trials that has never been accounted for? Never any answer from you City Folks!

You bury everything with each decesased City Official and blame the dead and never the living!!!

How convenient that you never answer any questions directly posed to you but leave it for the dead to ponder?!?!?

---------------------------------------------------------

Anonymous,

I loved your investigative reporting showing how our 1% cultural fund was used to indirectly subsidize POLICE OT while pretending to make a contribution to the Exchange Club or Jaycees. That was really sickening!

I wonder if that new 1.5% sales tax meant to help pay for the extremely subsidized parking downtown is also going to end up in Police OT?

Mr. Jim,

I just wanted to thank you for allowing us Napergatians to blog again without fear of slipping up and using that prohibited word of "Napergate." We are so use to using that word as it symbolizes so much to us, that I suspect many of us besides myself were not willing to risk banishment for an innocent slip-up while bloggin.

This Police OT issue is not new. It has been going on for years. We complained to City Officials during the Napergate Trials about this this police OT. They did not listen and apparently still are not listening!

Finally, after 177 years, you have given us residents a voice in your local newspaper. We appreciate that very much.

I think together with the Naperville Sun we can bring sanity to our City again. Without some help from the Naperville Sun or Napergate Ads, we are really fighting a losing battle.

But with help from the press, I think we can shame our public officials into shaping up. Let us hope it works!

Thanks again, Jim, for allowing us back on your Blog Site to speak our minds!

to "By One Who Values You",

The NPD is charged with enforcing ALL laws. There are times when NPD stop people for similar circumstances and some get arrested and some do not.

When a liqour store owner confiscates a fake ID he is de facto enforcing the law. The big difference here being the NPD allows him zero tolerance yet they allow themselves as much as they please. Plus the liquor store owner in being required to enforce the law on behalf of the NPD is actually increasing his own liability. If he or his employees make a mistake and illegally confiscate a valid ID they could potentially be subject to some type of legal action.

The biggest and most obvious fallacy with your thinking is that the NPD has been around for many, many decades. It has been allowed to develop a culture of us vs them. The us being the police officers and the them being everyone else. It is fundamentally wrong for the city council, the city manager, the police chief, or any supervisory police administrators to tolerate this kind of culture. The NPD do not "run" Naperville. The NPD are simply civil servants who serve at the pleasure of the citizens of Naperville. They are not entitled to anything more or less than any other citizens. Anyone with a pulse and lucid, cognitive function knows that this simply is not the case. The NPD is a poor example of proper and legal behavior on a daily basis. Everyone knows it and everyone sees it. The NPD is simply to visible to think they can escape the public eye. Maybe a few out-of-towners who don't know what to look for or where.

If you think there is a problem with too much OT in the NPD then wait until the Naperville Sun starts digging into all of the abuse that goes on in the NPD with officers who are supposed to be on duty and do nothing for hours. Yes, the citizens of Naperville are not stupid. We see a lot. We know where the NPD goes to hide. We see them there for hours doing nothing. We see two or NPD patrol cars pull up in those "out of the way" locations and do nothing more than shoot the breeze for hours at a stretch. We see the NPD congregate for meals and breaks in local establishments and we see how long you stay. We also see how much you pay for your food, in those cases when you are even charged. Hmm, doesn't the City of Naperville have pretty specific policies prohibiting city employees from accepting gifts?

If the NPD wants to restore citizen respect it should start with cleaning up its own act. First and foremost the NPD needs to change to the extent that they can become an exemplary role model... to each other, to other police departments, and to the citizens of Naperville. That means all Naperville Police Officers live by a personal code whereby they demand zero tolerance from themselves with compliance with all city policies and laws. Second, if there are bad apples within the NPD then they know better than anyone else who these people are and it up to them to weed them out. As long as the NPD allows any of these bad apples to remain, hiding behind their badge, hiding behind the cloak of blue silence, then the NPD has zero hope of restoring the confidence of the citizens of Naperville.

To:

"By Anonymous on April 27, 2008 10:25 AM"

RE: "When a liqour store owner confiscates a fake ID he is de facto enforcing the law. The big difference here being the NPD allows him zero tolerance yet they allow themselves as much as they please. Plus the liquor store owner in being required to enforce the law on behalf of the NPD is actually increasing his own liability. If he or his employees make a mistake and illegally confiscate a valid ID they could potentially be subject to some type of legal action."
=======

Is that the root of the whole issue w/ the Napergatians and the NPD?

Does this whole hate for the NPD stem from the belief that the liquor store owner is doing the NPD's job and there is built up resentment over the years from that? And as such.. they should be granted some 'professional courtesy' or be entitled to wide latitude in discretion?
...when they don't get it, they throw a hissy fit.

It sure sounds like this to me.

Let's get this clear: A retailer is not doing the police's job, they are doing their own job. That just comes with the territory (the responsibility) of selling certain goods that are regulated and that obligation is part of the "licensed to sell" package.

If you don't want the 'hassle' of that, then don't sell those goods (alcohol / tobacco).

By Anonymous on April 27, 2008 10:25 AM
to "By One Who Values You",

When a liqour store owner confiscates a fake ID he is de facto enforcing the law. The big difference here being the NPD allows him zero tolerance yet they allow themselves as much as they please. Plus the liquor store owner in being required to enforce the law on behalf of the NPD is actually increasing his own liability. If he or his employees make a mistake and illegally confiscate a valid ID they could potentially be subject to some type of legal action.

_______________________________________________________

Very good point Anonymous! Yes, they allow this liquor store owner Zero Tolerance but give themselves all the tolerance in the world to do as they please with discretion which ends up being DISCRIMINATION!

I bet if this liquor store owner extended Professional Courtesy to his teenage children they would hang him in City Square. See their hypocrisy my fellow bloggers!!!

Yet, if they catch their children speeding or driving intoxicated, I doubt they would do anything. Has any police officer ever ticketed his child in the City of Naperville! With certainty I could say never!

Much has been written on this liquor store owner this morning not only on this thread but other threads including the Napergate Threads.

Liquor Man Rick had 2 great posts on the Napergate Thread.

In it he documents how the Napergate Man confiscates over 85% of the Fake IDs in town, while the other 150 licensees confiscate less than 15% combined. This is shocking information that has continued unabated for over 25 years.

Why can't some of these OT cops on Chicago Ave be put in locations where they can monitor other liquor establishments that only confiscate 1 ID every 3 years. Why are they wasting all this OT police taxpayer funded money socializing on Chicag Ave in very large numbers?

It seems like each one of these retail liquor establishments has at least 100 minors buying booze on a consistent and repeated basis since no one confiscates their IDs. They just pick up the booze and return next weekend for more. Does Chief David Dial give a hoots?

Who is going to believe that minors only go to the Napergate Man's liquor stores which are on opposite sides of town. They go everywhere and probably least to his stores because he does have a reputation of confiscating fake IDs. One has to assume if 100 minors visit him per year despite his reputation, 500 minors must be visiting each of the others who don't have a vicious reputation for a "War aganinst Minors."

But as we can see our Naperville Police Dept. is not about enforcing the law. It is about keeping the corrupt and crony in power in order they get their fringe benefits which includes 3.15 million in annual OT combined with 75% pension when they retire in 25 years over the age of 50.

It must be nice! And the rest of us pay up the WAZOO for all this OT, benefits and absolute craziness!!!

Moderator Jim,

I forgot to thank you for reversing your decison and allowing us Napergatians to blog once again on issues that concern us.

I have not blogged since your decision.

Today is my first day back. As long as you allow us to blog as we please on relevant issues, I am back to being a regular blogger again.

Issues like downtown subsidized parking, police OT money, police discretion as a cover for discrimination, and corruption in City Hall concern all Napergatians as well as Napervillians.

I suspect everyone will unite to defeat the Establishment Party come next elction except for this group of 5 thugs on your blog site who are trying to control it and oust you as the fair and neutral Moderator.

They are so addicted that you ought to give them a 2 week sabatical to help them get over their addiction to blogging and regain control of themselves. They are like a bunch of 5 year olders in a Candy Store....out of control!

I am a little surprised they don't use their real first and last names since they have this deep need for recognition and attention.

My suspician is they may have traffic or even criminal records that would expose their hypocrisy...thus they settle for fantasy attention.

I think the debate on your blogs would go so much smoother if you directed or challenged your bloggers to answer directly instead of skirting around the issues.

I noticed the Napergatians answer directly. Joe and Ken just dance.

Joe can not come up with a number for the cost of downtown parking per spot or police OT per household. He just talks big in funny language and can not come up with a simple number.

I guess he is afraid the Napergatians will rip his numbers apart.

Yeah, Joe, I am sure this Police OT is only costing us .96 cents per household. Also, they say the Brooklyn Bridge is for sale for 5 bucks for suckers like you. Go back to the Candy Store and see if they will sell you a sucker for .96 cents! Don't forget to take an extra penny for police OT from the 1% cultural fund and an extra penny and a half for the 1.5% fund for subsized downtown parking. You got to pay your fair share in pennies like all children do for the SALES TAX!!! Don't forget, Joe! Being an adult with the mind of a child is no excuse for not paying up even if you do not comprehend anything like your fellow buddies or rather bullies on this site!

Moderator Jim to Sherry: I didn't quite "reverse" my decision, Sherry. All I'm doing is allowing Napergatians to come onto the police OT Part II thread and concentrate their comments on the issue of police overtime and not go off on tangents that include other and all aspects of Napergate. There are lots of other non-Napergatians who wish to comment on the police OT issue as well, and I don't want them to get all confused and alienated by having to read a lot of Napergatian material that has nothing to do with police OT. I'm just trying to accomodate everybody...within limits. Thanks for your - and all Napergatians' cooperation.

Moderator Jim,

The police overtime issue as it relates to staffing "charity events" appears to go the heart of the issue.

"Cultural Fund" Taxes are placed on the restaurants and bars, this money is then distributed to well-connected-charities that in turn spend the money to pay for their "favorite cause". A good question to ask is: do the operations of the Charities support (directly or indirectly) the business goals of their sponsors?

It appears the the bars etc.. fund the insiders favorite causes, then the City Govt. then turns around and taxes the rest of the businesses and homeowners to pay for the parking and police protection for the same Downtown establishments. ie. subsidized parking decks and police to more than cover the $2MM cost of the "Cultural Fund".

Actually, the subsidies and grants dwarf the $2 million in taxes "donated" to the "worthy charities" by the City.

The Charities then take the "forced donations" money and pay it out to cover their "operating expenses". One of those expenses is the Police OT required to protect the "fund-raisers".

A lot of the people that attend the huge fund-raisers are not from Naperville, who are the people that attend the small Naperville fund-raisers? Probably not the same crowd you see at the country rock concert. Many recognizable names?

The Charity fund-raisers in some cases crowd out the downtown businesses paying the taxes to support the event, WOW. The businesses still have to pay their rent, overhead and property taxes for those lost-days. WOW! The landlords still make out great.

One has to ask:

-What is the definition of CULTURE that the City uses to decide who gets our tax money?

- What are the published rules? What makes a Charity worthy in Naperville.

- What are the City's objectives in funding the worthy Charities?

- How is performance tracked and measured?

- Where are the public documents located that explain the benefits accrued to all of the taxpayers in exchange for our money? I'm guessing that there is something on the city web site but I don't want to leave my digital signature or file and FOI to read it.

The argument for the Downtown parking and police subsidies is that "everyone benefits", while making a few extremely wealthy. Huh?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

*Money flow: For OT ($2MM)

Food and alcohol tax => City Govt. => Establishment Charities => Police OT

*Money flow: Downtown Subsidies ($50-100MM++)

All City revenue sources and special fees => Subsidized parking and police OT and area improvements => increased profits for Downtown Business, Landlords and Service providers => many recognizable names

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

As to the get out of a ticket free card that Moderator used:

Sargent Knight pulled over a fellow Sargent for DUI, Knight either lost his job or almost lost his job for equal enforcement of the law. All of this was well documented in the Sun.

While I favor the officers having some discretion, penalizing officers for enforcing DUI is over the top. This one was a stain on the NPD for sure. I have a lot of respect for the NPD and was blown away by this one.

Were they both on OT when the appeared on court or did it get that far?

Sherry, I showed you how to calculate your cost.

Whip out your real estate tax bill and add up the city of Naperville taxes. Multiply them by .16, then again by .008

It's not 96 cents per household. That just happened to be mine based on my real estate taxes. I'm certain your taxes are different than mine and because of that would have a different 'cost' to you.

I understand what you are saying Moderator!

Thanks much! I think part of the problems stems from the fact so many Napergatians have found your blog site and love to blog on it.

I do wish that more Establishment Folks could find your blog site.

It seems sad that the Establishment is represented by these same 5 individuals. We have 150,000 residents in town and we only have these 5 losers bloggin on behalf of the Establishment as if they represent those in power!

Either no one supports the Establishment Party anymore or they are just over confident that business will remain as usual. Maybe they feel confident, they will be able to bring big numbers out at election time, as they have proven capable in the past even with the Napergate Man at his peak performance.

Maybe us Napergatians just have to work a little harder...obviously we are willing to...and trying!

Moderator Jim, speaking of tangents,please explain why the above post by Sherry is here? For the most part it is the usual bashing of the 5, which has nothing to do with OT.

BTW Jim, you are safe, the 5 thugs aren't trying to take over your blog, nor get you removed.

Moderator Jim to RJ: You're probably right, RJ. I let that one go...but that will be it. I knew this was going to be tough...put it this way...I'll be vigilant and do the best I can. Thanks.

Moderator Jim to Sherry: C'mon, Sherry. You're already violating the rules. You post your last comment on the police OT Part II thread and don't say one thing about police overtime. That's exactly the point I was making...and what I'm trying to avoid. You simply cannot go off on these tangents. If you want to, do it on the Napergate thread in the archives. Please.

Sherry, do you have proof that the NPD is protecting other liquor store owners as you imply? And that this protection is happening by officers on OT? Why not go to the county or state police with this information? Or the state's attorney office? Heck, I bet even Jim or Tim would be willing to publish this unequivocal proof that all you napergatians seem to have. There have been a couple of towns that had their police forces replaced by state or county law enforcement because of rampant corruption.

If you don't have this definite proof of overtime abuse and corruption you imply, then you are the one dancing. In fact, it seems like you and your fellow napergatians are all trying to do the Hustle.

Anonymous...

They do have discretion, judges do, doctors, parents etc. If you want to police to ticket every single person for every single violation with no discretion whatsoever, get ready to be hiring new officers or more OT! Hmmm...lets see then they would have more violations & anger which may land soooo many more in jail...so then lets get ready to fund the prison system more, which we know is overcrowded already....seems to me you are digging a bigger money whole when you are complaining already how much it is costing you.

Ken great point on liabilities of working as "charity" or even knowing it. If one gets hurt...will you be covered? etc. They never think of these things. Yes, if only people knew how much some work "off the clock". I'd like to see businesses say "come in off the clock" right! They won't even go in for a meeting without being on the clock.

Moya...anyone can sue for any reason today. Heck if a store confiscates a credit card they could be in trouble. Someone would probably try to sue...give me a break!

I assure you you do your fair share of helping out on this "us" vs "them" idea! You are not trying to bring together & work with them by your approach of attacking them. And to be so niave to think Naperville is unique in having city problems that are so similar to your own. Wow! That may explain why you do not understand the other points. That would be like LA or Chicago saying to Naperville residents you do not understand. Be very careful! There may be a few unique things you have to deal with with perhaps size of your city or the SES but I assure you then other cities have things your city does not deal with as much. To also think that just because someone is not aware or understands a point that you can not explain it to them nicely & they will then understand...quite sad! Again, you are separating with this comment not bringing together.

Finally, one good point you are finally attempting to get at is the idea of "bad apples" that there may be some but not to generalize to all. Finally! Though be careful what you may feel is "shooting the breeze" may actually be "watching & looking" etc in many ways. Many times students will think you are just socializing! Right! If they only had a clue what we were doing on their behalf. You can't tell them or they will realize & then it is a problem!

Sherry...

"I think part of the problems stems from the fact so many Napergatians have found your blog site and love to blog on it."

Oh so as somone mentioned they love the attention? Why don't they use first & last names then either?

Now lets see how many are posting on your side of the issue...hmmm? Just because others do not post does not mean they do not agree...do not make the jump in conclusion. Yes that can be for your side also but at least I recognize that...you are not.

There is an interesting article in the Aurora Beacon about Aurora's police overtime. Their police OT for '07 was almost $5.9 million.The article also stated that much of this OT is officers court time.

I guess Naperville seems pretty thrifty in comparison.

Moderator Jim: That little tidbit about Aurora police OT was pointed out in The Sun story last Sunday...guess they're just now catching up. In two cities of comparable size i.e. Aurora and Naperville, the NPD percentage-wise spends a lot less in overtime.

Moderator Jim, I figured it should be brought up again as many here seem to discount facts in their witch hunt.

Jim the Moderator,

On this new overtime thread, Stuart on April 26, 2008 6:19 PM mentioned your story about presenting a police card to a police officer when you were traveling in the Dominican Republic by stating: "You seemed to experience how it all worked when you got pulled over and pulled out your Uncle's NYPD Detective Card. Many of us don't have such a card and are given the most ruthless treatment imaginable as you were, before you pulled out your card that stopped the unpleasant behavior of the cop towards yourself and family."

When recounting your story he failed to state the important fact that you were in the DOMINICAN REPUBLIC. By omitting that fact, Stuart's post implies it relates to the NPD on this blog thread on NPD overtime!!!! Several readers have commented on, and responded to his statement as if your situation occurred here in Naperville.

Many readers on this thread probably did not read your post several days ago on another thread to know the truth. Without a correction the false stories often become the truth to uninformed bloggers, while the real stories are unknown or long forgotten. If you read Stuart's story without knowing your true story, it gives a false impression.

I understand it is impossible to correct all the falsity posted here, but hopefully this example shows the modus operande of some who have an agenda to deceive or mislead readers to support their beliefs. Many of those same bloggers profess that if their false or misleading statements(no matter how outlandish)are not corrected by you, or someone with proof, it only proves they are right.

Moderator Jim and RJ,
You really can't compare Aurora to Naperville just because they are the similar in size.

Aurora has the highest murder rates of all 200 suburbs of Chicagoland. Naperville has the one of lowest if not lowest murder rate of all 200 suburbs. I believe this is an inverse relationship to wealth and has nothing to do with how good or bad cops are.

Chief Dial admitted murders can create lots of overtime. We had one this year that is not part of the 3.15 million overtime. Aurora has dozens of murders per year.

We need to compare ourselves to towns like Downers Grove and Wheaton and multiply by 3 to equalize the populations. That is a much better and fair comparison to towns that are more similar to ours.

Those gang infested drug laden neighborhoods in Aurora need lots of policing. I live in a subdivision and I honestly can't recall the last time I have seen a police car. I know this has been said by many before me but it is true.

But not one person has given an explanation of why we need 12 cops on Chicago Ave to monitor 4 bars but none in the NW Plaza that has 3 bars and a liquor store all open till 2am on weekends.

I guess Joe said he has seen families with kids in strollers past 11pm in the downtown and that is the reason for the need of 12 cops. First, I have never seen kids in stroller pass 11pm on Chicago Ave. I am sure it has happened both there and in the NW Plaza on occassion. But I believe that would be rare. Most restuarants downtown become bars after 10pm and do not allow anyone under 21 after 10pm to dine or eat. I personally experienced that once at the balcony place we can not mention by name when I was with my family. I respected their policy and think it was good since kids should not be exposed to youngsters of age getting wasted. So I don't know what children would be doing on Chicago Ave. after 10pm since they are banned from most if not all the establishments.

I have never seen bar patrons even while intoxicated storm out to attack a baby in a stroller. They may fight over a pretty girl in a bar. But most 21 year old boys do not want babies and are not going to fight for or with a baby in a stroller. Most times if they hear their girl friends are pregnant, they leave the state or change identities to avoid responsibility.

Suddenly, Joe wants us to believe the 12 cops are there to protect a baby in the stroller who is with his MOM and DAD.

Many of the bars downtown have numerous bouncers who are capable of breaking any fight. Most bars have doormen that are stationed outside who could jointly break any fight. Thus the need for these 12 cops who I have every reason to believe are on overtime staying over from their midnight shift is a total waste of money.

Since we have 2 or 3 cops cars circulating the downtown area, they can be called by the bouncers or doormen when needed. We all know they got 3 police cars to arrest the Napergate Man in 50 seconds in a non-emergency situation. Since response time is so superb, why do we need 12 police officers when the bouncers could perform the job until the police arrive in much less than 50 seconds during an emergency situation.

Let us stop wasting money on Chicago Ave. I think someone computed it could be costing us nearly a million dollars a year in regular and overtime pay. Since the downtown estbalishments can't afford their parking they certainly can't afford all this unecessary security.

If they can't afford to pay their rightfill bills, they should be allowed to go out of business like other businesses in the USA. If they can afford to pay their bills, I hope they prosper, but I do not want to subsidize them anymore at my expense when I do believe most are making WINDFALL PROFITS!

How ironic that charities like the Ribfest and Last Fling are required to use their donations from citizens cultural tax to pay for police OT! However FOR PROFIT BARS do not have to reimburse us for police OT that pertains strictly to them despite their huge profits that are easy for anyone to notice since they have lines of patrons trying to get in especially during the late spring, summer, and early fall time period.

I hope the Naperville Sun helps us get some answers. If does really seem ironic that charities pay for Police OT but FOR PROFIT BUSINESSES do not pay for Police OT stationed outside their doors.

I guess if you put posters in your windows supporting the establishment during election time, you will be subsidized and exempted from all your true costs to run your business. Let us hope we are not picking up the garbage for these downtown businesses at our expense, but I suspect we are since the dumpsters are in public parking lots and used jointly by all the retailers.

Thanks RJ

Ignorance and not knowing what questions to even ask just harms so many! Perhaps that will help...if NPD also gave some comparison data to show they are in line with others their size etc. Heck, hate to use this example, but my vet even has a typed up thing on services that shows how his are lower than the avg for the area.

People just go nuts with data without knowledge of the data. Like the 50% divorce rate stats the media always puts out. Everyone says "ah you got a 50/50 shot!" Not true at all! Depends on SOOOO many factors...differences on culture, religion, age, how long you know the person, views on child rearing, roles of the marriage, on & on...some have a 90% chance of divorce others really 20% for example. Same thing here...people just react to numbers without the context & enough information to make informed evaluations; & do not even realize what they need to know to ask the right questions to analyze & make a judgement. They go by gut feeling & thus not logic...balance of the two might be even better, but too many just react to sensationalism rather than asking questions first & then deciding!

Moderator Jim to Southwest Naperville Taxpayer: I take your point, Southwest, about it difficult to correct all the "falsity" but this is an easy one. Anyone who wants can just go to the home page, click on "Jim Lynch" and get the whole story (my column, Fri. 4.25) in context. It's hard to talk about these matters with people who don't even read the paper...
either the print or online version. Thanks.

Beilen...how many times does one have to post that the 12 is for the whole downtown & not just those 4 establishments. If it was an officer who posted it perhaps confirm this again!

I really don't see too many kids that late but summer perhaps & when does Barnes & Noble & the Cookie Dough place close...so...then you stroll a bit. Not as much winter time. HA! I have never seen them be attacked either. :-)

Now calling for 1 person versus the..what someone already said 500-1000 patrons at the bars...much more damage can be done in even your 50 seconds you mention.

There is a bit of a difference between the establishments which are part of the city & a charity that comes in to do stuff that is not in a normal budget. They should pay for it. Heck, even if it is not a charity...I don't know if the circus comes into town...who would pay for that? Maybe I just don't know but I would think they would have to? Maybe one of the officers would know...I would think that would be private & not city so then...Just because you are a charity it doesn't mean you should not pay for things just like others have to. Again, perhaps it was on the other post but someone mentioned liabilities with "donating time" for the charity. You have to be careful not knowing & just thinking "why don't you" there may be darn good reasons!

Beilen,

Plenty of adults with their children stroll around downtown even after dark. Ethel's Chocolate is a Yummy Mummy hot spot and they are open until 11, as an example. Personally, I'm glad there's usually officers hanging around Jefferson/Main and Jefferson/Wash because there are a lot of a$$hats that sometimes hang out on the corner by the Starbucks acting like immature brats taunting drivers and walkers alike.

It's good to see cops bust chops around there once in a while when someone deserves it.

By Beilen on April 27, 2008 5:26 PM

"Those gang infested drug laden neighborhoods in Aurora need lots of policing. I live in a subdivision and I honestly can't recall the last time I have seen a police car. I know this has been said by many before me but it is true.

But not one person has given an explanation of why we need 12 cops on Chicago Ave to monitor 4 bars but none in the NW Plaza that has 3 bars and a liquor store all open till 2am on weekends".

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Beilen,

I have re-written you post so that you can understand why we need so many cops in the Downtown all the time

"Those gang infested drug laden neighborhoods in Downtown Naperville need lots of policing. I live in a subdivision and I honestly can't recall the last time I haven't seen bangers walking, loitering or driving through my sub division. I know this has been said by many before me but it is true."

As to monitoring the Downtown, you don't need a ticket to be admitted or have to be a Naperville resident, which means less all the time. There are a whole lot of people downtown most of the time. Read the arrest and crime reports, the ring around the downtown is impressive. Especially whey you collect the info for a few months and view it all at once.

Bubo,

You still have not answered my question.

Why do we need 12 cops monitoring 500-1000 partons at 4 bars on Chicago Ave and no cops monitoring 500-1000 partons at 4 bars in a NW Plaza that borders Aurora. Downtown is 5 miles away from Auroa. This plaza borders gang infested Aurora and receives no police protection except an occasional drive thru.

Besides these 12 cops on Chicago Ave there are other police vehilces both regular and undercover monitoring other parts of downtown. I have seen them. One undercover vehicle is a white car and one is a black car.

If just defies logic that one bar district has tons of cops and another has not ONE cop. It is as if we care about the downtown and do not care about the rest of the town.

You would think if 12 are really needed on Chicago Ave, at least 2 would be need in the NW Plaza.

I would like someone to seriously address this issue without dancing around it.

Thank you!

PS. I posted earlier on the Napergate Thread but I am posting here now because I believe these cops on Chicago Ave are on OT. No one has yet explained how they are paid. It is surprising how little we know about how our town is run. Maybe the Sun needs to do more reporting and explain to us how our town is run. Most of us bloggers are going in circles.

Joe,

You don't need 12 cops to bust chops on one intersection. You have plenty of doormen and bouncers who will help the cops if something big breaks out until more police arrive.

By the way, I have never seen anything big ever break out in downtown.

I think 2 police officers on Chicago Ave is plenty. I was in downtown on New Year's Eve and 3 cops on Chicago Ave did a great job. It was much busier than a summer day and the bars were open an extra hour till 3am...or actually 2 hours extra since I recall it being a Monday and they normally close at 1am on Mondays. Everyone was very intoxicated. I only saw one arrest which was a result of 2 girls fighting over a cab by pulling each other's hair. I guess there was no scarcity of police but a scarcity of cab drivers on New Year's Eve.

It is obvious we are throwing school cops on Chicago Ave because we don't know what to do with them in the summer. We feel a need to pay them...sometimes overtime whether they are needed or not.

Maybe these school cops should/could be helping the detective racking in $45,900 dollar in overtime where they can/may be useful instead of being "potted plants" on Chicago Ave. More than 2 or 3 cops on Chicago Ave. and we have potted plants showing off their motorcycles and checking out the girls because they are bored to death. I don't blame them! I blame the Chief of Police who put so many police officers unnecessarily on one intersection. We have had girls writing on these blogs about police officers opening cab doors for them.

I don't want to pay $54 bucks in OT to cops to open cab doors for pretty girls. If the girls are that wasted, maybe some one should talk to the bars owners about cutting them off before they get to the point where they can't even open a cab door.

And Joe, I was talking mostly between 11pm to 2am when their really are no strollers but 12 cops watching over 4 bars. The bars really should have plenty of their own security and should only call the cops in the rare event they lose control. Oak Brook and Downers Grove are loaded with bars. There are no cops stationed outside these bars. They handle their own security at their expense and only call the police when something gets out of control to the point where someone needs to be arrested.

Usually, if 2 guys fight over a girl, if you send the culprit home, the situation, is resolved with no need for cop intervention. Or you could send them both home one before another but not at the same time. Next time, they know they are not welcome unless they behave like gentlemen.

I really feel the bars downtown have very good internal and extenal security. Why the police are hanging around at such humongous expense to taxpayers is mindblogging to me?!

And Joe, there is no way this Police OT is only costing us .96 cents per household. If what you are saying is true, then Mr. Lynch does not need to run any more articles on the matter.

I believe the Napergatians estimate of $60 dollars per household is much more accurate. Don't forget Joe, we contribute to the tax fund in more ways than just our property tax. Who pays for most of the sales tax...the residents? Who pays for all that tax on the electric bills...the residents? Who pays for all that tax on the water bills....the residents? We are taxed in many different ways up the wazoo!

I think you are very wrong when you say it is only costing residents .96 cents for all this Police OT! I say you are VERY WRONG!!!

Cut the overtime, it is a waste of money and we can not afford it.

WE all now are on the same page regarding the country --the 'stay out of jail card' JL used in the dom.rep. Also I think it might be only time JL used the card,that's his business. I would guess his uncle was one of the good guys who EARNED the right to pass the card on and all of us would have tried our best to calm that fellow down. Kudos to JIM'S UNCLE,WITH RESPECT. We know 90% most PD's street cops are good,clean and work with respect for that badge and oath. However what about the so called 'rogue' cop. The problems exists at the top and mid-level mgt.In particular, the fireman blogger said out of approx 50 legit traffic stops he walked on all but 1,and further was surprised that officer wrote the ticket. Another officer gave a list of occupations that routinely may be given PROFESSIONAL COURTESY , that's discretion we mostly have agreed of that need.The trib has a great thread on chi police with several " real officers" telling it like they see it.PC EXISTS ,and needs to be ended. dang, if the good guys can't obey these traffic laws something is wrong?Do you know most DEPTs use friend to a police officers card? Some are very specific giving commander's number to check/verify clout?? Source-'City in Chains' A nurse said as a young woman she oftened recieved PC, but as an older person,has been written citation.Worse than PC,Or of equal important, Is the internal affairs div. working in city?. I believe the lady who is too afraid to file for fear of harrassment. Let's have the meet-up Joe and several others have been calling for. It's your $$$$$$$$ just like the ROTELLA ad,pay now or pay later.

Rachael, you are correct! Only the state agency issueing the license can suspend or revoke,after the ticketing source forwards complaint to SOS/DMV.Ralph are you ready to sign our petition asking DOJ/FBI to come and investigate the MANY,MANY allegations of misconduct,failure to perform due diligence,conduct unprofessional,and straight out criminal acts. Overtime will seem like a small cost factor after the various fed. civil rights violations are settled.The city boys never 'got it',they long for the days when most people refused to speak out, for fear of retribution from popo's. This has been stated by several local residents who went as far to name the officers. I'm not at this to bring any SINGLE person out to the public whipping post. Dozens of residents and people who visit your city have posted personal experinces with NPD. That is how our group came to form.I'll stop here and look to see if this makes the cut. Also kudos to Beilen,Lucas,Stuart,Linda,mr.popo,elmhurst cop,Ralph and of course Eli and Ameena. I know I left out a few,cuz im tring to get this posted. For those who want changed in NPD policy, your wishes are about to come true. p.s. you always have an oppurtunity to PRESENT your side to SOS ,provided you are aware of action to suspend,and after ajudication you have your appeal.As we see with ISTHA,NOT EVERYDODY is accorded due dilegence. They will soon regret that actions again under class action.

We hate the ACTIONS of the criminal cops, Ken- we do not hate the officer or sgt. Where in the past year in POTLUCK has a blogger used the H word as applied to a indivdual. We are trying to change the behavior of the culture of 'Rogue' cops. When i'm done try'in i'll file my complaint and cash out. over and out. Help solve the problems or attack me personally, I've been a delivery boy for more than four MILLION MILES and on a typical chi-town to long beach round-tripper i'll deal with more peace officers,scale masters,DOT inspectors,local PD, county,state{marked or otherwised},fuel testing and collection agents,port of entry;mandatory registration, and YOU know what the agriculture station back-up going into and out of Vegas on high volume week-end is like. Yes, federal officials also get involved when needed.

By Beilen on April 27, 2008 9:12 PM

"You still have not answered my question.

Why do we need 12 cops monitoring 500-1000 partons at 4 bars on Chicago Ave and no cops monitoring 500-1000 partons at 4 bars in a NW Plaza that borders Aurora. Downtown is 5 miles away from Auroa. This plaza borders gang infested Aurora and receives no police protection except an occasional drive thru."

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

While the police are obvious in the Downtown, I don't know what the presence looks like at the NW bars you are referencing. Unmarked? Are there incidents there where the police are not there in a timely manner or not able to make arrests because everyone got away clean?

Does the Downtown drive overtime for the police during the warmer months, I hope this is true otherwise the rest of the city is being striped of its patrols and response time would be way down. Does the Downtown require more police than the rest of the city, again read the arrest reports.

Can someone explain to me why groups like the Exchange Club and the Jaycees can host an event raising money for charity and then they are forced to hire police officers as security for their event at overtime pay...

and at the same time profit making establishments in downtown can book bands, run ads, and encourage all kinds of crowds to come to their establishments to spend money... the establishments can pump them full of booze all night long and then turn them loose to drive home...

and the citizens of Naperville are expected to pay for this?

If these businesses need this kind of security then they should be required to hire their own off-duty police officers the same as charity events.

We already know that police overtime is diverting at least $100,000 from going directly for charitable causes as was the stated intent of this tax.

What we do not know is how much money the police department is spending each and every year just policing the downtown business district. The Naperville Sun should dig into this and do another special report. I'm willing to guess that the total expense has got to be pretty close to $1,000,000 per year.

The downtown establishments should be paying for every dollar of special policing that is needed because of their business activities. If the city council set a precedent by making charity events pay for the cost of special policing and profit making businesses are far better able to foot this expense than a charity.

An early poster made a good point that the Naperville Sun should also follow-up on. SECA tax was supposed to be collected and spent on improving CULTURE in Naperville. I don't know about others and it will be good to see what everyone thinks... when I think of culture I think of the arts... drawings, murals, sculpture, music, bands, orchestra, opera, dance, literature, poetry, etc.

Please recognize this is not an attempt to dismiss the valuable and important work performed by non-profit organizations. I know and respect this first hand as I am an active volunteer with several community organizations. I recognize how difficult it is for most of them to raise funds for their operations and activities.

However, I do have to question the propriety and legality of disbursing finds collected under the premise of culture and then being given to social services type charity organizations. On one hand the concept of bait and switch comes to mind and on the other my understanding was that it was against the law to collect tax in Illinois for a specific purpose and then divert that tax money and spend it on something else.

Bielen,
You just proved that the claims that there are 12 police officers routinely overseeing the intersection of Chicago and Washington continue to be perpetuated on these blogs. As you state,on New Years Eve there were three.

It is unbelievable how a false statement, like 12 cops oversee 4 bars, is perpetuated on these blogs.

I have lived in Naperville for over 11 years, and frequent the downtown regularly, including special events. I have NEVER seen 12 police officers at that intersection!!!!!

I posted this to Rachel's point of the young nurse on the other threat...
*****
Try thinking...officers have discretion just like ANYONE else! First, parents have discretion in punishing their children. Authoritarian parents will punish no matter what & with the worst punishment & this is not helping the child's psychological growth. Authoratative parenting styles use discretion & critically think of the circumstances and appropriate punishment of the time and other factors. Now teachers use this same discretion, doctors, officers etc.

I believe your nurse friend was shown this discretion when young & obviously she has not learned from this so she should be ticketed now if she is still speeding & abusing this discretion. It may have nothing to do with that fact that she was a "pretty young thing" as in just her age of first offenses etc. Think about this...I get a young first time cheater in my classroom I will talk with them about this...if they repeat over time...they get the F! If it is an older adult student should they know better by their age not to cheat? If they say, "I didn't know I was cheating" would you buy that as much as a young student? You may think it is "other factors" but it may be darn good logical reasons.

As for doctors being professionals & not having a poor attitude if they were ticketed...I assure you not all would. Thinking of some I know myself who are are just as human as others! They are no different than other occupations having bias. They are not suppose to I grant you that, but they are not immune from it! You can take that chance! Will I agree with you that it may make a difference going 50 over in a school zone during school hours...these are the discretions they take into mind!

By mr quigley on April 27, 2008 9:55 PM
We know 90% most PD's street cops are good,clean and work with respect for that badge and oath. However what about the so called 'rogue' cop.

Mr. Quigly,
It does bother me all those rogue cops(estimated to be 5-10 in number) who worked hard to convict the Napergate Man during those Kangaroo Napergate Trials, to a large extent remain on our force.

We never cleaned house then and we are probably never going to clean house under this current Chief of Police who by the way was also in charge during the Napergate Trials...

At least the City Council asked him to cut his OT from 3.15 million to 3 million. While I think this is a tiny step, it is at least a tiny step in the right direction.

If the City Council did not say anything, the current Chief may have increased the OT of his department to 4 million to reward all those who worship him in his department as if he is a cult leader of sorts that can not be questioned in this town. The way he instructs his troops to apply discretion is disturbing to say the least!

I would like to see the Naperville Sun put in a call to the Finance Director and find out if this massive police OT is only costing us residents .96 cents per household as Joe is saying or $60 per household as the Napergatians are saying keeing in mind we pay much more than just property taxes to pay for our police force and other services in town.

If it is only .96 cents per household, let us cancel these 2 OT Threads and get back to more important issues concerning our town like subsidized downtown parking. We can all affored .96 cents. I suspect these threads were put up because the Naperville Sun has done research indicating it is in agreement with the Napergatians cost of OT or these OT Threads would have never been put up in the first place! Not for .96 cents...that is for sure!!!

Beilen,

If you have a better math formula then present it.

When this all started, everyone was complaining about how the police OT was making their property taxes go up (forcing out the elderly/fixed income people, blah blah blah). The truth is, for every $1 in police OT that gets spent only 16 cents comes from your property taxes.

If you want to start re framing the complaint and talk about other funding sources of the city, fine. People again pay differing amounts depending on what and where they spend money. What you pay is not what I pay and visa versa.

According to the funding percentages, 43 cents of every dollar spent on police overtime has the potential to come from non-citizens in the form of sales tax, fees and 'other' sources of income for the city.

So really, non citizens can pay over 2X what a normal citizen pays if the citizen doesn't generate a lot of local sales tax themselves.

You are right about one thing, making a big deal about how police OT is such a burden to people's tax bills is just a crock and a non-issue. Your $60 and $70 estimate per household is a crock too because I've shown you that a non resident can easily pay for over twice the police OT than a resident does.

When you present your credentials in law enforcement management and shift running, you can school everyone on how many police officers it takes to maintain the peace. Until then you are just talking out of your backside and speculating while pretending it's fact. The crime stats in this town show that what they are doing works and works really well.

I want to know how all that police overtime is going to handle the "secret" roller disco in downtown Naperivlle.

I mean, we can't have a place like a roller disco in our city if we ewant to raise our kids here. Do you have any idea what goes on at these places?

The police need to do something about it.

Bielen,
CORRECTION;

My post directed to you at 9:56 am should have read:

"You just proved the claims that there are 12 police officers routinely overseeing the intersection of Chicago and Washington is false. As you state, on New Years Eve there were three.

It is unbelievable how a false statement, like 12 cops oversee 4 bars, is perpetuated on these blogs.

I have lived in Naperville for over 11 years, and frequent the downtown regularly, including special events. I have NEVER seen 12 police officers at that intersection!!!!!"

Moderator Jim to Gredel: What is this business about the "secret" roller disco in downtown Naperville? What's that all about....does one even exist? I've never heard of it.

To Anonymous@ 955AM, April 28th

"and at the same time profit making establishments in downtown can book bands, run ads, and encourage all kinds of crowds to come to their establishments to spend money... the establishments can pump them full of booze all night long and then turn them loose to drive home..."
--------------------

Let's not forget that liquor and grocery stores sell stuff so people can booze themselves up and drive around town drunk. It's not just the downtown bars contributing to the danger on the streets at that time of night. Every retailer who sells alcohol has some culpability in it as well.

Ultimately, we know it's really the fault of the person who gets behind the wheel while intoxicated and no one else's. Regardless of where they consume of from whom they buy, I'm glad we have enough police out there to bust them and get them off the streets.

Joe,

Ok, I'll accept your point. How many DUI were issued by the 12 officers standing around in the downtown area last year and how many DUI's were issued by other police officers on regular patrols throughout Naperville?

If someone can prove that there is some criminal activity taking place downtown that requires all of these police officers and that all of these 12 police officers are needed because of the sheer volume of arrests being made then there is some support to why they may be needed.

The police department should be able to produce exact statistics showing how many people were arrested in the downtown district by these officers and for what offenses.

Once the police department can produce some data for us all to look at we will all be better able to analyze the data and come to our own conclusion as to whether this is a good investment of our tax dollars or whether the downtown establishments should be paying for these special services.

A lot of establishments in other towns have to hire bouncers who are police officers. The cops like it because it is an overtime gig. They are off duty so they get to flirt with the girls, even have a few free drinks. This sure makes a lot more sense than the majority of Naperville residents who are home in bed with their children paying for the special policing needs of a bunch of out-of-town drunks.

Anon,

Read the police blotter.

While one or multiple officers are busy performing an arrest or other duty there needs to be other coverage in the area in case something else happens.

If you want stats, FOIA them. What do you people have about filing a FOIA at the police department. It's a simple form.

Personally, I don't want an off duty tanked up officer pretending to be 'on duty'. I'd rather have the real sober one who is on the clock doing their job.

Do you just not like Naperville cops? Seriously, that's a valid question because all this 'overtime' you are complaining about easily is paid for equally if not more by people who don't live here. Further, those patronizing the places downtown spending gobs of cash are paying more for their overtime than my real estate taxes do. Look at the funding sources and percentages into the general fund.

Every person buying an overpriced drink is throwing more per dollar at overtime than each dollar of my real estate taxes... yours too if you own a home here.

By Southwest Naperville Taxpayer on April 28, 2008 11:37 AM
Bielen,
"You just proved the claims that there are 12 police officers routinely overseeing the intersection of Chicago and Washington is false. As you state, on New Years Eve there were three.
It is unbelievable how a false statement, like 12 cops oversee 4 bars, is perpetuated on these blogs.
I have lived in Naperville for over 11 years, and frequent the downtown regularly, including special events. I have NEVER seen 12 police officers at that intersection!!!!!"

____________________________________________________________________

Southwest Naperville Taxpayer,

All last summer on weekend nights they had 12 cops there. 6 were on bikes, 2 were on motorcycles, and 4 occupied 2 SUVs and one or 2 police cars parked in the middle of Chicago Ave. They even had a 13th loud cop dog that kept parking at all the patrons trying to get cab rides home. I will never forget how annoying that German Shepard was. I do not know why he had to be there. Police State Tactics, I guess to frighten the residents with a vicious non-stop barking dog. What a violation of the noise level of 100 feet at the time...but of course our police have Professional Courtesy and can violate the laws they are sworn to enforce including noise laws!

There were less police on New Year's Eve for 2 reasons:

1. The Napergatians hammered at this issue on these threads(Jim's Blog Site) after the summer and before New Year's Eve. They made an issue of it. The Police Chief in my opinion responded and got the job done with 3 cops just as the Napergatians stated it could be done adequately...and it was done adequately proving those 12 summer cops were a waste of OT residential taxpayer hard earned money.

2. The School Cops apparently take New Years Eve's off but do like making their regular or OT pay on Chicago Ave in the summer where they are truly not needed.

You probably go to the downtown on weekdays or earlier on the weekends. Just go after midnight on weekends and you will see the 12 cops and on some nights a 13th cop with his insane police dog who does not stop barking.

Now common, what the hell is a police dog doing on Chicago Ave. I sure hope that dog isn't being paid OT. I am sure his handler is!

___________________________________________________________________

PS. We will have to wait and see if Chief David Dial returns 12 cops on OT to Chicago Ave in the summer of 2008 as he did the summer of 2007. With the elections on the horizon and the Napergatains pounding on the door to City Hall, expect 3 or less cops on Chicago Ave this coming summer. That is more than we need since there other cops already driving around downtown in both marked and unmarked vehicles who can support them in the case of a crisis. Plus tons of bouncers and doormen who can give them additional support. Let us be reasonable SWT! Please!

Stop your lies, SWT, as hundreds of us have seen these dozen cops on Chicago Ave. on LATE weekend nights! It is enough the Joe lies and fabricates on these threads. Please don't lower yourself to his level and my hope is this is your first and last lie on Jim's Blog Site!

I urge you, Mr. Moderator, to delete SWT last 2 posts as they were total lies. I am sure hundreds of blogger will bare witness that he is lying blatantly and it should not be allowed per your rules. Please ask him to stop!!!

By Anonymous on April 28, 2008 12:20 PM
Joe,
A lot of establishments in other towns have to hire bouncers who are police officers. The cops like it because it is an overtime gig. They are off duty so they get to flirt with the girls, even have a few free drinks. This sure makes a lot more sense than the majority of Naperville residents who are home in bed with their children paying for the special policing needs of a bunch of out-of-town drunks.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Anonymous,

Thanks for making a little too much sense on this OT thread.

Most of those downtown cops ride their bikes to City Hall and go home with no arrests. They are there purely for show! They are put there because Chief David Dial does not know what to do with the school cops.

Did you ever see a cop on a bicycle pull over a drunk in a motor vehicle?

No need to dig any records...bike cops just don't make DUI arrests!!

Out of town off duty cops should be given the opportunity to assist these bars IF they need more security. However, Naperville Cops should be probibited from working in Naperville Liquor Establishments as that creates a HUGE CONFLICT OF INTEREST!!!

If Naperville Cops want additional work, they need to apply outside of Naperville for jobs in bars, taverns or charity events.

The nice thing about having cops working in other towns is they will be all working for straight pay and not OT pay. Thus we and other towns can all save while the drunks pays for them all! At least the drunks will be paying straight time instead of OT, if we move them to adjoining towns to work privately!!! We got the drunks a discount...what the hell more do they want???

Moderator Jim to Cynthia: As clearly stated in the Sun's story on Naperville police overtime, city police officers are prohibited from working second jobs.

Important points:

Since when does downtown Naperville only have four bars? Drive the downtown streets, there are more, many more.

Will residents of other cities continue to visit downtown bars if they feel unsafe (ie. not enough police)? If that happens the taxes collected (much from residents outside of Naperville) will dwindle, meeaning greater tax increases to Naperville residents.

Overtime is a fact of every police department.

Naperville is a safe community, due to the police and the citizens.

Is the suggestion that police not patrol ribfest? Who would go then?

Perhaps everyone whining on this thread should be more concerned about the crazed geese attacking bed shoppers and appreciate the community you live in.

Moderator,
Are they prohibited working second jobs out of the Naperville City limits such as moonlighting in a bar or nightclub?

But in case you don't know most of these cops that work security for bars throughout Chicagoland are paid cash under the table. They usually get 15-25 bucks per hour under the table so no one really knows they are working while they are moonlighting.

I guess I meant to say the bar patrons know they are working, but not the US and State Governments as they are working tax free underground if you will. Maybe their own police departments don't know, if they have similar policies to the NPD!

I will say while I have seen hundreds of cops moonlighting for underground cash in tons of out of town bars, I have never seen a Naperville Police Officer moonlighting in an out of town bar for underground cash.

So I will give credit where credit is due to NPD officers.

But please delete SWT posts as they are both lies, Mr. Moderator.

I do not know why bloggers just simply can't tell the truth and let the chips fall where they may! SWT should be at least warned not to lie on these threads....that should not be tolerated!

Cynthia, and the rest of the OT whiners:

First of all, it has not been proven that the cops(and the dog) you hate so much are on overtime. Public information from the Naperville web site states that the shift schedules are from 5:30-5:30 and 6:30-6:30. Unless you have facts that the downtown contingent is on overtime, you are just making up your own lies.

Secondly, I have to question how long you have lived in Naperville. Obviously you have not lived in Naperville long enough to remember all the problems on the riverwalk before the increased police presence started. Many families were afraid to enjoy the downtown area and riverwalk because of gang presence and unruly behavior in those areas. Those problems led to the anti-cruising laws and the increased police presence you see now. I don't know about you, but I sure would hate to see things return to how they were before the bike patrols and other methods used now.

It is amazing that many of you here let your dislike of the police blind you to the safety they are providing you.

Anonymous on April 28, 2008 1:15 PM wrote:

"Perhaps everyone whining on this thread should be more concerned about the crazed geese attacking bed shoppers and appreciate the community you live in."

Good point. Maybe Chief Dial should pull some of those cops away from downtown and assign them to a special detail to deal with our goose gang problem: "CSI - Naperville, Special Waterfowl Unit", anyone?

I don't mind them at all. I have a 5 year old daughter and love being able to walk with her around town, bags in hand and know we're safe. That if something was to happen to her or myself the proper authorities are always close by in the background. I say hello to them, I respect them. Have a little pride in our city and it's employees.

Go walk around some other downtown areas and see how safe you feel. The tax break comparison in Joliet is marvelous I hear. Have a seizure and see how many pedestrians stop or better yet know what to do and will help you.

Is it excessive presence?..maybe. But I'm not in the habit of complaining because my downtown area is policed regularly. I don't break the law and I'm not harassed.Pick your battles people, geez.

IMHO

Ken,

I don't believe the Napergatians ever said they don't like police.
They are only questioning police policy. They want police on Chicago Ave but only 3 and not 12. How is that not liking police?

They want an equal amount of police in the NW Plaza since it may have an equal amount of trouble makers. How is that not liking police?

What they are trying to say and that you may not be grasping is the deterrent effect we all want can be achieved with 3 cops instead of 12 on Chicago Ave.

There are park district police, Kevin, that patrol the Riverwalk in yellow shirts. No one is complaining about them as their numbers are very reasonable. I see 2 bike PD cops and a few PD SUVs driving by once in a while and the area seems to be very safe. The Riverwalk is Park District Police area and not NPD area. NPD patrol downtown.

Why don't you provide those links to those hours you are posting?

Someone posted hours of 8am to 4pm, 4pm to midnight, and midnight to 8am. I have never seen the very unusual hours you are talking about.

Can you elaborate! Are those just for the weekends? How can they be working 12 hour shifts and not getting OT for the last 4 hours. And if they work 2 12 hour shifts and 3 8 hour shifts later in the week, aren't they still getting overtime for the last 8 hour shift as it would make it 48 hours per week. I think you may be trying to outsmart the Napergatians.

They are a pretty smart group, Kevin! I would not try to outsmart them unless you can provide links to facts or actual informaiton.

There are so many of them that they can catch any lie.

Look at how they caught Southwest Naperville Taxpayer in a lie. Of course, I also knew he was lying and seen those 12 cops on Chicago Ave on weekend night after 11 pm as I like to party once in a while. I only saw the cop dog 3 times. I must say that dog was frightening and does not belong near drunks who are sometimes afraid of their own shawdows!!

Post the links, Kevin! Let us try to get you some credibility with the Napergatians so we can have a truthful debate!

I've never met a fireman who didn't have some kind of other job on his days off. In fact a lot of firemen hold two full time jobs by being firefighters in two different cities. Great deal if you can do it and keep your shifts from conflicting with each other.

I have no problem with policemen working a second job if they want to make more money. In fact I question the legality of a law or ordinance that would prohibit a policeman from taking another job. Especially if that forced them to then work "under the counter" because then all of these police officers would be breaking not only City of Naperville laws but the would also be guilty of breaking state and federal laws including state and federal tax evasion.

Of course the police officers could create their own security business and that business could then contract with a downtown establishment and they could justoperate as an independent contractor which is legally totally different from being an employee or taking a second job.

Cynthia,
I think you give the Napergatians too much credit. I was in downtown Naperville celebrating New Years Eve 1999 at the corner of Main and Chicago. That was the big Millenium celebration with the big fireworks show, and electric parade. I do not recall seeing 12 officers on Chicago Avenue that evening, and I definitely didn't see a police dog.

You might have been downtown on a bad night last summer. I find it hard to believe it was the same as you describe every weekend night based on my own experience. I was there many weekends, and at least passing through almost EVERY weekend night, and never saw what you describe, except the police cars in the middle of Chicago Avenue.

I don't know why the dog was there the night you were there, but I know we have an excellent K-9 drug sniffer in town.

No lie.

To "Anonymous on April 28, 2008 3:05 PM"

Look up a post By Kathleen on February 27, 2008 1:18 AM, here: http://blogs.suburbanchicagonews.com/newsblog/2008/02/napergate-man-unmasked.html#comments

Same page, a post By Elizabeth on March 5, 2008 7:12 PM

Same page, a post By Susan on March 5, 2008 8:16 PM

Same page, a post By Roger on March 5, 2008 8:28 PM

Same page, a post By Lucas on March 5, 2008 8:33 PM

Same page, a post By Melissa on March 5, 2008 8:55 PM

etc.

I believe all of them are Napergatians and I believe all those posts and many many others show their point of view splendidly about how they feel with regards to the police.

FWIW, Police officers should not have to take a second job to make ends meet. They need a proper balance of work/family/leisure to have their proper wits about them while on their job. The last thing you want is an over-stressed and sleep deprived officer out on patrol who is that way because some ignorant nitwit thinks police OT is causing the city to go into bankruptcy by spending .8% of the budget on police overtime and it has to stop or the world will come to an end.

Anonymouse @ 3:05pm, all you have to do is read the tone used in all the anti-overtime posts and it is fairly obvious there is little respect for the police force.

I don't know why you keep asking this Kevin fellow for a link to the Naperville website as I was the one who referenced it. How hard is it to type City of Naperville into your browser, anyhow? In answer to your 12hr/overtime claim, without looking at the contract I would not know for sure. Most contracts are overtime after 40 hours when a 12 hour shift is the norm, so every cop downtown would have to be over 40 hours every night for all to be on overtime. While a few may be on overtime, the site says they use an A/B rotation, so I highly doubt all of them, including the dog, are on overtime.

By the way, Cynthia's libelous labeling of SNT as a liar is proof of nothing. Cynthia seems to have a problem with the truth herself unless she can prove her claims of all the security at all the bars in Chicagoland at are paid cash. Of course, facts have never been a hallmark of the napergatians.

Dear Joe,

Did you actually think before you wrote that last post?

Police officers should not have to work a second job to make end meet in one breath. In then next they need a proper balance of... Then in the next breath you call your fellow citizens nitwits for questioning police OT?

Funny how the police department provided OT doesn't seem to be causing any stress or balance issues isn't it. Yea, we have a steady stream of police officers complaining to the city council about all of the excessive, mandatory police dept OT don't we? Fact is the only time you will see officers move faster than when you roll a donut down Ogden Avenue is when ask for a show of hands who is available to work OT.

The big LIE is that the police officers WANT the rule that prohibits them from taking a second job. This is nothing but an illegal conspiracy within city hall. By writing the work rules that way all police OT is guaranteed to be time and a half of their salary and anyone who needs police officers for whatever reason has to hire off-duty. What a sham. Absent this work rule the police would be free to work however, whenever they want. The people who need police services would get to hire them at competitive straight time rate which would be between $15 and $20 per hour instead of the $54 per hour they are able to get away with so they conveniently hide behind this work rule.

Fact is it is not illegal for a police officer to hold another job. If he works too much at outside employment that is his choice and he will suffer the consequences if it impacts on his competence and performance. And that is his immediate supervisors responsibility to ensure that his performance is up to expectations and if not to get rid of him. Yes, it requires maturity and restraint and knowing when enough is enough and when to say no. With all of the college educated police officer I'm sure they don't have trouble making good decisions especially when it may impact their own career.

To By Anonymous on April 28, 2008 10:32 PM

Working OT and working a second job are 2 drastically different things on one's stress levels and quality of life.

Try it sometime. I've done 3 jobs at once. It's not fun. 2 jobs is better than 3, but 1 job is better than 2.

How many jobs have you held at once where one included putting you life on the line each and every day just because you wear a certain uniform and for how long?

So far through all the complaining no one has yet to show how any police OT actually causes a problem. People complained about the cost and how it effects their property taxes. We've shown that to be a non issue. Now you're complaining about their wages in general and saying they should have to get a second job instead of working OT.

What bad life do/did you have that makes you want to share/project the pain so much especially towards police officers specifically?

Just my two cents regarding police OT:

I don’t think we’ve gotten to the root cause of the OT problem yet in this thread. The OT number is about $3.2 million (as reported by The Sun last week), but people are complaining about $100K that goes to the fests?

The $100K fest expense being thrown about here is just 3% of the OT budget. Not small potatoes, but hardly the reason for the large OT expenses. Plus, this is a reimbursed expense, the city just needs to let the reimbursement go back to where it belongs. I think the city is being hypocritical when asking the NPD to cut the OT expense but not giving the department the reimbursed OT expenses from the fests. If the city wants to cut the OT budget by 5%, they can get 3% in just one accounting move.

I can’t follow the logic (or lack thereof) to those who seem to think that the city is somehow forcing the Culture Fund OT money down the throats of the fests, or “laundering” the money through the charities back to the city. Am I wrong in thinking that the fest organizers request this money from the city Culture Fund? And mandating that the fests use NPD and NFD officers for the fests is not some conspiracy, its good public safety. Think of the lawsuit if someone were injured or suffered a heart attack at one of the fests and then dies as a result of the fest being undermanned by the city. The fests are always going to incur these security expenses, it’s just a matter of who will pay for it.

The bigger issue is why we’re giving “Culture” money to the fests that reap millions for their charity anyways. Isn’t the Culture Fund then just being used to subsidize the charities by reducing the fest organizers’ operating expenses? I think the fest organizers can and should shoulder the burden of their needed safety and security expenses. The Culture Fund should be used for public arts projects, not fests and city phallic symbols. The council should have come up with a definition for the word “culture” before implementing their little slush fund, but I guess that’s another thread for another time.

40% of the NPD OT is for court appearances mandated by the judges in DuPage County. This could possibly be lowered by having officers go to court on their scheduled work days and not off days, but then the NPD would need to hire more officers to cover the shifts of officers who have to appear in court. I would hope someone in the city would do a cost/benefit analysis for this issue as hiring officers to work while their colleagues are in court may seem attractive but could be a wash when benefits and training expenses are added to the equation.

So I guess I’ve accounted for 43% of the OT expenses. Some OT will be unavoidable, like the recent murder investigation. The big question is where is the “avoidable” OT? And spare me the missives on the 12 officers on Chicago Ave. I don’t buy into that, I like the safety of downtown, and I’d hate to see the Riverwalk revert back to the crime-infested area it once was.

T.B.

By Anonymous on April 28, 2008 10:32 PM

"The big LIE is that the police officers WANT the rule that prohibits them from taking a second job. This is nothing but an illegal conspiracy within city hall. By writing the work rules that way all police OT is guaranteed to be time and a half of their salary and anyone who needs police officers for whatever reason has to hire off-duty. What a sham. Absent this work rule the police would be free to work however, whenever they want. The people who need police services would get to hire them at competitive straight time rate which would be between $15 and $20 per hour instead of the $54 per hour they are able to get away with so they conveniently hide behind this work rule."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anonymous,

To your point

1. ALLOW THE OFFICERS TO DECIDE

If the NPD officers want to work overtime, it should be their decision as long as it does not affect job performance. Their managers are hired to monitor performance among other things.

Most of my life I have worked far more than 40 hours per week, sometimes including 12 hour days on weekends and catching flights at 4pm to arrive at my destination 3 to 10 hours later after working a full day. I don't believe that anyone would say that I was ineffective at my job, my second job, or my business.

2. OT IS ALLOCATED BY SENIORITY

My understanding is that overtime is allocated by seniority, which is typical of a union shop. It also guarantees the highest overtime rate. This was Furstenau's issue he was pushing before his arrest. You would think the younger officers would have better stamina and therefore are more capable or working the extra hours, so the union policy is counter intuitive if job performance is the issue.

One can argue that the junior officers are the ones with younger children and are likely the ones that most need the extra income from a second job since they are at the bottom of the totem pole for OT in a union shop. This is a bad deal for the junior officers.

Instead of watching TV in the evening and sports on the weekend (after the household stuff) should an officer be allowed to work a mall or bar-restaurant where the owners feel that getting an employee that knows the law and is allowed to carry a gun is worth the extra expense? Yes, I realize that a junior officer may be attending a prime law school or going for his MBA during his non-work hours, but they should have the option of more money now if they want or need it. Let the officers decide.

3. THE CITY IS USING THE EVENTS AS CONDUITS TO FAVORITE CAUSES

The connected establishment Event charities are heavily subsidized by the City. If you were to take away the subsidy, they would have to either raise their prices or decide which causes they want to support less. Allocating the Event’s money is something that they do all the time. Yes, these are forced contributions (taxes that you don’t have an option to pay), the City distributes the tax funds using these "Events" as a conduit to the favorites.

4. LAST FLING AND RIBFEST HURT DOWNTOWN BUSINESSES

Ironically, the two big downtown “Events” apparently kill the businesses that are paying the taxes to fund them. In your face! They should be moved out of the downtown to a park that the Event has to rent. Nike is closer to the tollway (88) and since many, if not most, of the audience is from out of town, tollway access is an issue. The Downtown Business Alliance should be out marching in protest. Oh, I forgot, they got the subsidized-parking to shut them up.

Events in the Downtown should have a direct benefit to the Downtown Business like more foot traffic and customers, or at least not kill their business while the event is taking place. People that attend art fares go to our restaurants and shop in our stores, read more tax revenue.

Downtown Residents are forced to put up with these oversized and very loud events on top of the dozen or so other events that clog our streets annually. Ribfest and Last Fling are by far the most disruptive and invasive events and go on for days.

It’s been a long long time since Naperville had only two gas stations and no tollway ramps.

5. EVENTS SHOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR OWN SECURITY

The Events should be allowed to hire whoever the want for security, if that means the Hells Angles and Lynyrd Skynyrd, (tickets sold at less than half of their market value) have at it. If this produces people with bloody shirts, which it did, then that is a cost the "Event Organizers" will have to deal with including law suits for injuries or death.

My favorite was the guys wearing Security Jackets (after their shift at one of these events) standing in front of a Downtown coffee shop calling young women wh***s and b**ches as they walked by in shock. The NPD was standing there, but is powerless unless one of the shocked 17 YO females complains to them.

Alternatively, the City may not allow them to use our extremely expensive City infrastructure (probably in the billions not including the Goodwill-value of our City name) as a venue for their Event. If NPD officers want to work for a security company that is hired by the organizers, that is their decision. Again, the current seniority system is unfair to the junior officers who also need money.

With a lower cost per off duty police officer, maybe the Events could afford to hire more officers and eliminate the low-lifes in Security Jackets that harass and insult our daughters.

Good Morning T.B.,

The Riverwalk is monitored by 2 bike PD Police in yellow jackects and they have their own SUVs that drive by and monitor it. The Park District Police are doing a much better job and it has nothing to do with the NPD or NPD OVERTIME as to why the Riverwalk is safer!

The Park District Police is a separate entity and do their own policing.

We basically have 2 Police Departments in Naperville so our true cost of policing is much higher than anyboy has yet indicated.

I have no clue if Park District Police are paid OVERTIME. My guess is they are. Besides the 33 NPD cops a blogger estimated are at the Rib Fest and Last Fling, I have also always seen PD Police assisting. My guess is they are getting OT too, right from my real estate tax bill.

They also get paid OT for court appearances. In the famous Napergate Kangaroo Case, a Park District Police Officer was the judge for one full year getting paid OT. All the others officer were NPD testifying being paid OT.

Regarding your missives of 12 officers on Chicago Ave., please free free to donate funds for the 9 that are really not needed. Three are plenty as was proven on New Year Eve 2007. There is not much troube in downtown and the police are there for deterrence. If 3 can create deterrence, why do we need 12.

Why not put a few unmanned SUVs with the light flashing to create an image of 12 cops while only having 3 if 12 is needed so badly for deterrence. If the 3 officers are asked, where the other 9 are they could say they are doing their rounds in the nightclubs or on other streets.

The State Police put dummy police cars on the Toll Highways according to my girl friend at the Toll Authority. Research done by the Toll Authority indicates these dummy cars act as a deterrent and significantly slow down speeding drivers. Why can't we do something similar to cut OT? Unless, of course, cronyismm is in full force, such as we will let you have all the OT you want but use your discretion to let us(City Officials) go when we get in trouble but always arrest people like the Napergate Man so we can help justify all this police OT in case anyone ever questions it.

Besides those 12 we have marked and unmarked police cars that circle downtown. I bet this overzealous policing downtown is a great part of the 57% of OT that you could not figure out, T.B.

Also, show me proof, that a Judge mandated that these Police Officers have to be in court. Walk in any other courtroom from any other suburb and you will see one or two cops or no cops. Not 14 cops sitting in a jury box twirling their thumbs. Call the Chief Judge, T.B., before making statements on this site without any proof! Who told you it is required that is credible...the City Offical that said the Napergate Trials costs 5-10k...that would be a joke. The Chief Judge would be credibile but not a Naperville City Official. The Napergate Man caught them in lie after lie, distortion after distrotion for 10 straight years. Are you trying to tell me they suddenly turned honest? City Manager pro-tem Bob Marshall lied to the Napervile Sun on a front page article on Jan 20 of this year. If the leader lies how can we believe any of his employees in City Hall. If they lied when the Napergate Man has them under the microscope, you can be assured they are most likely lying more now that the Napergate Man is not even looking at them through his telescope!

The Court pretty much does a roll call for anyone who wants to plead guilty in the morning...almost everyone does! Thus those police really don't need to be there until the afternoon session when the Judge listens to those who want to dispute their traffic violations.

It is also unlikely that ALL 12-15 cops would have alleged violaters that would want to dispute their tickets. Maybe half would. So there would be no need for the other half to show up in the afternoon, and no need with "possible exceptions" to show up in the morning.

The Naperville Sun should call the Chief Judge of Dupage and ask him a simple question as to whether it is required or not, since it is doubtful T.B. who is repeating this prophesy like it fact, will!

If the Chief Judge says it is not required we would have uncovered another Napergate Style cover up, and whom ever Sun reporter made that call would be recognized for his or her efforts just like the Napergate Man was recognized for all his efforts, uncovering one cover-up, after another in the Napergate Era.

What makes the citizens think these cover-ups stopped after the Napergat Era? In my opinon they got much worse with no Napergate Man watching over City Hall. As Anonymous stated, this no police second job rule is to allow the NPD police officers to work at 54 dollars an hour instead of the going rate of 15-25 bucks at such events as the Last Fling or Rib Fest. It is a COVER-UP of sorts to give the NPD OT instead of competitive rates for security which are half those of Regular Pay!

If there are any serious injuries, whether the NPD are working for OT directly or free lancing for non-overtime at Charity Events, the City of Naperville has pretty much the same liability or non-liability either way. So why not save 60-70% of the costs of policing by allowing NPD officers to work directly for the Last Fling and Rib Fest. If we need 33 NPD cops, 7 PD cops and 10 Firemen that is all fine with me. But let us pay them the straight time competitive "free lancing" second job rate and not this ridiculous $54 dollar per hour for doing nothing more than walking up and down and back and forth on Jackson St for 8-12 hours. I bet in this town of big hearted volunteers many citizens would volunteer to walk up and down Jackson at the Last Fling and look for trouble makes. What about those Cadet Police in training? Why can't we have 3 police officer on OT and 30 cadets in training? Most of this security is for deterrence so I don't see the need for sniper trained police officers to be at a Festival. No gun has ever been fired at the Last Fling except a toy gun. City Hall needs to undersand that the Last Fling is not Baghdad. It is not a war zone! It is a fun zone!

If police officers are not happy with the going rate of 15-25 bucks for security duty because they have been spoiled for decades, other off duty police officers, from other towns would love to work for the extra money, and hopefully at some point the NPD officers will swallow their pride and understand BUSINESS AS USUAL has ended in NAPERVILLE. The Napergatians plan on exposing and ending all this BUSINESS AS USUAL wastful spending that has inflated our real estate tax bills since the Napergate Man retired.

The City of Naperville has a choice. To stop this improper and unnecessary OT pay to the police, or to be ousted by the Napergatians and Napervillians in the next elections since we have had it with City Hall.

Only about a half a dozen residents, possibly police officers, are on all these blog sites supporting City Hall. The rest of the residents blogging, who easily number over 500, have had ENOUGH!

To T.B.

The Riverwalk never was a crime infested area, that is simply not true. Have various crimes been committed along the Riverwalk over the years? Absolutely, but not statistically higher than any other area of Naperville.

You indicated that you thought the charities should shoulder their own expenses for security related to their events and the huge numbers of patrons they deliberately attract. I agree with that logic and also do not see why there should not be any exceptions to downtown establishments who are doing the very same thing. You see, an earlier poster tried to make the argument that all of the downtown establishments are justified because of all the sales tax collected. Well surprise, surprise did the rest of you know that all the food and drink and concessions at Ribfest and Last Fling also pay sales tax to the City of Naperville on everything they sell?? So the events and the establishments really are on a level playing field with regard to tax collection, yet downtown get extra police protection at no cost to them and the events have to pay for it at OT rates. How in the world is that fair?

Diana,

Work up a schedule by beat area and a number of how many more officers have to be hired, trained, equipped, insured, etc to cover the city as it is today, allow for all to go to court for the tickets they issue so they get properly prosecuted, and no one gets overtime pay.

Tell us how much money that solution costs to implement and operate on an ongoing basis year after year and compare it to what we have today for costs.

Don't guess either, use real numbers please. Show us the 'savings'.

To Diana,

good point that in addition to NPD there also are park district police. Let's also not forget that we commonly see Forest Preserve police going thru the city, the county sheriff, and the state police.

When we talk about police officers lets be clear that legally there is no distinction between local police, park police, sheriff, or state police. They have all been given police powers by the State of Illinois. Their jurisdiction is anywhere in the State of Illinois... yes every single on of them... anywhere in Illinois. A Naperville Park Police officer could make an arrest for spitting on the street in Carbondale if they wanted to.

The point of this is to question if Naperville can go to Lisle to make an arrest and Lisle can go to Naperville to make an arrest then why do Naperville Police officers get a sweetheart deal for Naperville events that need police level security? Why are the event organizers free to hire state police, county sheriff, park police, or city police officers from wherever they can get the best deal. Remember we are talking about money being spent by a charity and the more money they can trim from their operating expenses the more money that can actually go toward a good cause. All of these other police officers possess the basic credentials required to perform the job and to ram mandatory police OT down the throat of the event organizers is not only wrong it should be criminally wrong. This country is based upon free enterprise and capitalism and this sweet heart deal goes against these very principles.

Diana,

While I acknowledge the fine job the Park police do, they are patrolling the park and it is up to the NPD to use tools such as the cruising ordinance to stop the gangs and others up to no good from getting to the Riverwalk. The close proximity of the downtown streets means that the NPD does see what happens on the Riverwalk. I see this as an overlapping area of police patrol, not patrol by one or the other department. I wasn’t trying to slight the Park police, but was only stating that they are not solely responsible for the relatively crime-free Riverwalk.

Dummy cars in downtown? Ha! That may work for the State police on the highway, but only because you’re on top of the dummy car or even past it before you realize there’s nobody in the car. You have to slow down well before you make this realization if you’re speeding. How about we just park a dummy car on your block? Do you think that will have any affect on crime in your area?
Diana, you present me with a classic Napergatian argument regarding the proof you desire regarding the presence of police officers in court. You demand the proof, but then go on to say that if the proof is from any city source they must be lying. Do you want the proof or not?

Before you accuse me of making up statements without any proof, maybe you should just read the Sun which published an article on police OT on April 20th. One of the areas they addressed was court OT and they printed this: “"DuPage County requires police officers to be in court," [Joe] Matchett [Pres of Naperville FOP] said. "We've tried to streamline some things to make it easier on officers as far as physically being in court. The chief judge wants things to be done a certain way as a far as DUI offenders and so on. Criminal matters and traffic matters require us to be there."”

I haven’t seen anything yet in the Sun or these threads which would suggest the Sun’s article was in error. I also have not seen a retraction by the Sun, which surely they would do if they found an error in one of their articles.

You can doubt this proof if you’d like, but you certainly cannot accuse me of making up facts, Diana. Call the Chief Judge yourself and see how far you get. I don’t really care.

I understand how you and others may want to let the NPD officers work off-duty at the fests for less money than the paid OT. I have serious questions about this. Does an off-duty officer really have the power to arrest someone? If they make an arrest, are they not acting in the capacity of a police officer and thus should be on the payroll? You can’t have it both ways, cops out making arrests and acting as if they work for the city and yet not being on the payroll. If a cop has to restrain someone or strike someone who is resisting arrest, does the city get sued or is the cop sued individually since he’s off the clock?

This is not such a black and white issue. Cops, by the definition of their jobs, must respond in certain situations and are then automatically “on the clock” if they are acting within the scope of their employment with the city. If you were being mugged in front of an off-duty cop, would you like him to tell you he’d like to help but is not being paid so tough luck? There are few professions in the country where someone could be so personally liable for damages. This is true both on-duty and off-duty, but the liability goes up even more when off duty.

You are correct (I believe) in stating that no real gun has ever been fired at Last Fling, but can you say with certainty that no gun will ever be fired there? Could it be that the very police presence you dislike is the very deterrent that has brought Naperville this fine safety record? Also, police and fire professionals are trained to be prepared for the worst-case scenario, not the best case. And I think them for it.

I’d like the OT hours cut, too, if you haven’t noticed. I just don’t think the fests are the place to start. The fest reimbursement, however, should go back to the police budget. They earned it.

I suggested that the NPD take a look at the court costs to see if this can be reduced. Other that that, I asked where the rest of the OT is occurring. Without knowing what is causing the rest of the OT, it is sort of useless to argue about it.

At the risk of banishment, Diana, I’ll briefly explain to you why your style turns people away from the Napergate cause—not towards it. You found one thing you thought was wrong in my post (you were wrong, by the way) and you went on to accuse me of making up facts (lying, in essence) and then went on to say this was part of another Napergate Era cover-up. You also decided to state that everyone supporting the police on this thread are “possibly” police officers. None of this helps give you any credibility.

T.B.

Anonymous and Diana,

You are both right. It really shows you how bad things get when there is no one watching. Government does what it wants to benefit itself.

No one wants to hear about the Napergate Man. But the truth is he controlled government to some extent for the better part of 2 decades with all his WatchDog Ads!

Basically he would let City Officials do what they wanted and then tell 22,000 subscribers of the Naperville Sun and a readership of 50,000 Napervillians when the town was significantly smaller, what they did. He would shame them and they would think twice about doing it again....and sometimes they would not do it again since they knew they were being WATCHED!

One example is City Council Members stopped accepting contributions from the Brestal Law Firm and developers when running for City Council after he exposed the connection. They continued to accept contributions if they were running for State Office but not City Council. So one can make a difference by exposing and shaming!

The Napergate Man would have shamed them about this OT for security at Charity Events that could be done for one third the cost.

He was doing what the Naperville Sun should have been doing. The Naperville Sun is trying to do what the Napergate Man did, but they put one foot forward and take 2 steps back. They seem to be intimidated of City Hall.

But at least they are letting us do the dirty work they don't want to do, by letting us expose the improprieties on this blog site. I wish they would put the print editon to work with full force....and join forces with the Blog Site to bring maximum pressure on City Hall and its cronyism and corruption!

The Napergate Man was able to shame City Officials and Police by using pages 7 and 9 of The Sun. The Naperville Sun can really shame them by using PAGE ONE!

Go for it Naperville Sun! Stop this abuse of taxpayer hard earned money!

Great Job Diana, Anonymous, Cynthia and so many other bloggers!

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PS. Please choose any name that we can identify you with Anonymous. If you don't someone will use Anonymous to ruin your good reputation. Keep up the excellent work! I do not know if there are one Anonymous or a bunch of you, but you are all excellent...that is the ones against this OT POLICE WASTE!!!

From my previous post:

"You are correct (I believe) in stating that no real gun has ever been fired at Last Fling, but can you say with certainty that no gun will ever be fired there? Could it be that the very police presence you dislike is the very deterrent that has brought Naperville this fine safety record? Also, police and fire professionals are trained to be prepared for the worst-case scenario, not the best case. And I think them for it."

I meant to say I THANK them for it. Oops.

T.B.

Personally,I could care less who's paying for what. I see an awful lot of speculation on this blog. For me it's simple. To be able to take my family to Ribfest, Last Fling etc. etc. and feel completely safe is what it's all about. Plus, the cops are very kid-friendly and blend into the crowd. It's not like these festivals have an overwhelming police presence.

T.B.

I don't think Diana turns anyone off. Her style is very direct and to the point.

Every time you give a solution you second guess yourself and question what you just said.

You give no solutions. You seems to be happy withe 12 police officers on Chicago Ave making all that OT. You seem to have no issue with the laundered money coming from the cultural fund paying for Police OT. You seem to want to believe a police representative that Police are required to be in Dupage County in the manner that they are, while a simple observation will show you other police are non-existent in other courtrooms for other towns in the morning with rare exceptions.

You do see police officers from other towns show up in the afternoon when someone is not willing to plead guilty. I was in a courtroom for the town of Willowbrook recently. Everyone pled guilty in the morning except for me and one other guy. No police officers were there. Just 2 prosecutors, a Judge, a Dupage Bailiff(security cop from Dupage) and a Clerk!

The judge asked us both to come back in the afternoon. We both had the same cop. The Willowbrook Police Officer showed up in the afternoon. The Judge believed him over us for the traffic violations. It was basically his word against our words with no concrete evidence for either of the parties. We were both found guilty and did not receive supervision since we dared to challenge the system. Both of us were found guilty in less than one hour. Willbrook experienced one hour of OT and maybe they paid the officer for his travel time. I really don't know but I believe officers do get paid for travel time back and forth from Dupage County Court. As we learned on these sites, cops only work if fully compensated. Thus we have to minimize their work as Willowbrook does.

So if Willowbrook does NOT have its cops in the morning, why does Naperville have to have their cops in the morning when everyone pleads guilty in return for a fine and supervision in an attempt to save their insurance rates from skyrocketing whether innocent or guilty. The judge will not hear a single case until he goes through the 200 to 300 traffic violators one by one to give each one a chance to pleasd guilty in return for supervision. Anyone who has been in court knows that! Have you never gotten a traffic ticket in your life, T.B., not to have seen this? You remind me of SWT who says he had never seen bike cops until people came out of nowhere and said they all saw bike cops in downtown Naperville!

No police officer is called to testify until the line is all gone. By the time it is gone, the Judge takes his lunch break.

The action starts in the afternoon for those who want a trial. So why does Naperville have 12-14 police officers sitting like potted plants making $2592-$3024 dollars in OT every morning while doing nothing....absolutely nothing...just sitting down and whispering to each other all morning...that is all they do and get paid OVERTIME at $54 an hour......UNBELIEVABLE!!!

If in fact it is the Chief Judge's policy, why can't we discuss it with him. Maybe Willowbrook talked to him and he just said make sure they are there in the afternoon for those who plead innocent. Maybe be would have no problem if we did the same.

This is something our City Officials and our Newspaper should be questioning. What Diana was saying is let us not take the word of this Fraternal Order of Police Official who is obviously biased.

Maybe he misinterpreted what the Chief Judge said. Do you think the Fraternal Order of Police President is going to meet with the Chief Judge and try to cut OT pay to the UNION POLICE he represents? That is cutting his union dues since he gets a piece of every dollar earned during OT!!!

Diana has tons of respect on these blogs sites. She is no nonsense and direct. There are hundreds supporting her. You are wishy washy and you are lucky to even have the support of this Group of Five.

Sorry to give you the bad news, but the Napergatians have received massive support on this blog site. This did not happen becasue they turned people off. It happened because they turned people on!!!

Try to be a little less wishy washy with your next post, T.B., instead of disputing everything you say by second guessing yourself. Your style is boring and leads to no solutions...it leads to nowhere! Reading all your posts is like wasting time! Sorry, but that is how I honestly feel about what you write. Try to do a little better and offer serious solutions without saying but "if' or "but" before starting each new sentence or thought process. Your style is sickening and boring!

Diana,

I agree with you this craziness in police OT during court session in Dupage County needs to be investigated.

It just seems like a waste to see these huge number of cops sitting in a jury box looking as bored as possible.

I do think Chief Dial needs to call the Chief Judge to ask him if there is a way around this to save some overtime.

It seems like the Police Chief has become very complacent in budgetary matters right before he is about to get his retirement and ballon pensions.

He does not seem to understand that food and gas has almost doubled since last year while our salaries only went up a few percentage point if we were lucky enough to get a raise.

Police can work OT to pay for their increased costs. We can't but somehow have to find a way to pay for this incredible and unnecessary OT. Does this not seem crazy to anyone?

Lisha,

Just because you say there are 12-14 officers all on OT on Chicago Ave does not make it so.

Please post your actual data that shows who these officers are, when you saw them, and what their schedule was for that week to prove they are all there and racking up overtime on Chicago Ave.

Names, dates and work schedules. It should all be public record. So post it. Prove everyone wrong and prove they were all there and on OT and better yet, show who they are.

You're the one making the claim, back it up please.

Lisha,
As a traveling salesman, I do get my fair share of speeding and stop sign tickets in Dupage, Will and Cook Counties.

Oddly enough, I also did notice the only courtrooms filled with cops are the Naperville Courtrooms in Dupage. I have not gotten a ticket by a Naperville Police Officer in Will County yet. I don't know what happens in Naperville Courtrooms in Will County!

Does anyone one know if the Chief Judge in Will County also requires Naperville Cops to be in court? I have gotten tickets by Bolingbrook police in Will County and not one single cop was present. Everyone before me pled guilty, I pled guilty and left. I don't know if some one behind me pled innocent. If that happens, I assume the prosecutor tries to make a deal and if he can't the cop is called in. But to have all these cops sitting in jury boxes is not affordable to towns like Willowbrook as you noticed and Bolingbrook as I noticed.

I guess if you live in a wealthy town like Naperville they burn multiple 100 dollar bills every hours and blame the Chief Justice for burning them...lol...

I do hope the Naperville Sun takes over for the Napergate Man and gets to the bottom of these issues that we are blogging about.

It is unrealistic to expect a Chief Judge to answer to a lonely citizen. He probably won't even answer the phone. But a Chief Judge knows he has a duty to answer to a newspaper. Plus since he may have to run for election again one day, he loves all the publicity he can get, since it gives him name recognition for the next election.

Diana wrote:

"If there are any serious injuries, whether the NPD are working for OT directly or free lancing for non-overtime at Charity Events, the City of Naperville has pretty much the same liability or non-liability either way. So why not save 60-70% of the costs of policing by allowing NPD officers to work directly for the Last Fling and Rib Fest."

And Martha wrote:

"The Napergate Man would have shamed them about this OT for security at Charity Events that could be done for one third the cost."

Math check, here, people: the savings on regular vs. OT pay is 33% not 60-70%.

Also, if, as some have suggested, we're going to adjust NPD work schedules so that court time and arrest reports done at the end of shifts are covered by straight time, you have to consider the costs of medical coverage, retirement pay, sick pay, vacation pay, etc. over and above the salaries of the new officers we'd have to hire to ensure adequate police coverage.

By Casimir on April 29, 2008 2:00 PM
Personally,I could care less who's paying for what. I see an awful lot of speculation on this blog. For me it's simple. To be able to take my family to Ribfest, Last Fling etc. etc. and feel completely safe is what it's all about. Plus, the cops are very kid-friendly and blend into the crowd. It's not like these festivals have an overwhelming police presence.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

If there is no overwhelming police presence that you can see, maybe we are wasting $100,000 in OT money being given for these events from the cultural fund.

I would like to think with this kind of expenditure, we would have overwhelming police presence at these events. We are talking about 1852 hours of police hours even at the inflated OT rate of 54 dollars. I hope you were mistaken in not seeing overwhelming police presence. Otherwise we got doubly ripped off...both the money and no services in return.

It is nice to be so rich and arrogant that you don't care about us not so rich and ordinary folks who need to watch our dollars to make it through in this world on a day and day basis.

I guess one sees why the Napergate Man was so well liked. He obviously was rich, but he cared about saving money for others who did not have his means and wealth.

He was unselfish and spent much of his money on ads trying to keep City Expenditures under control so that not so wealthy taxpayers can afford their taxes.

All you are saying in a snobby way, is I can afford all this waste, so don't bother me. Unimaginable we can have such self centered and selfish people who call themselves Napervillians.

So you can care less who is paying for this 3.15 million in OT. You can care less whether the rest of your fellow citizens can afford an unnecessary and avoidable $70 dollars in police over time per household.

It cost us $70 bucks per household any way you slice it. Others may be contributing to the police OT such as non-downtown retailers but since their funds are being used here they can't be used to help the resident in other areas. Since it is being used to pay for POLICE OT, it can't be used to reduce our real estate tax bills.

I think Joe is an idiot for brainwashing himself that this actual police overtime only costs us .96 cents per household. Directly and indirectly it is costing us $70 dollar per household...that is outrageous. It is as if Joe does not understand we also pay sales tax, electric tax, water tax, stamp transfer taxes, telephone tax and other taxes that all go towards this police OT.

Joe has always been the idiot of these blogs and will forever be. I can not imagine the Napergatians and the Naperville Sun would want to bring this into focus for .96 cents per household. What kind of job did you do for 18 hours a day, Joe? It must have not required much in the nature of mathematical skills...that is for sure!

Rodi, Lisha, and all other napergate members:
The question has been repeatedly asked where your proof is that the overtime is "incredible and unnecessary". Instead of patting Diana on the back for her usual post full of suppositions, why not come up with the proof to back up what you are saying?

By the way, Lisha, the only people supporting the napergatians are...the napergatians. The numbers are far fewer than claimed too. If the napergatians had the support they claim on this board and throughout the city, they would have been able to elect their whole slate and would be running the town. Obviously, that has not happened.

By John Q. Public on April 29, 2008 4:12 PM
Diana wrote:

"If there are any serious injuries, whether the NPD are working for OT directly or free lancing for non-overtime at Charity Events, the City of Naperville has pretty much the same liability or non-liability either way. So why not save 60-70% of the costs of policing by allowing NPD officers to work directly for the Last Fling and Rib Fest."

And Martha wrote:

"The Napergate Man would have shamed them about this OT for security at Charity Events that could be done for one third the cost."

Math check, here, people: the savings on regular vs. OT pay is 33% not 60-70%.

____________________________________________________________________
Math Check Again..

John Q. Public,

I think you missed the last few days of bloggin so you got lost in the math. Since most police officers can not get the OT that the Naperville Police can get on a consistent basis, they look for second jobs and work for 15-25 dollars per hour as has been posted by many bloggers. I have a friend who is a cop in Cook County and works in a Hillside Bar named G*lw*y for $10.00 an hour to make extra money.

Math Check as you say:

$15 to $25 dollar is .28% to .46% of $54 dollars in OT pay! Thus the saving would be 54% to 72% going with the numbers posted indicating Diana and Martha are correct mathematically speaking.

If you go with the $10 dollars I know about. the savings would be 81.5% off the Naperville Police OT rate! The bottom line is cops should be allowed to work second jobs. We should be allowed to hire cops who give us the best hourly rates for these events. Lisle, Naperville, Downers Grove, Cook County, or Aurora cops are all trained very well and can handle the minor security needed for the Last Fling or Rib Fest. Mostly we need a deterrent effect!

So I think the Napergatians had their math right, Mr. John Q. Public. You must have missed a day or two of bloggin.

Most cops will moonlight for much less than their hourly non-overtime rates as they are competing with non-cop security personal and other cops. Most sponsors will happily pay $5 dollars exrta for a cop as opposed to a non-cop for security purposes. But they are not going to pay 3 to 4 times what a non-cop security guy makes for a fun festival where a shot was never ever fired such as the LAST FLING!

If the City of Naperville wants to donate cultural funds to these CHARITIES which is WRONG in the first place, the last thing they should do to add insult to injury is force these CHARITIES to pay 3 times what is necessary for security by imposing the NPD OT rates on them, when they can get other police to work for one third of the price just as the Napergatians are stating.

Once the monoply of cronyism is shattered, we can get rates we can all afford while at the same time reducing our real estate bills drastically by fighting each item on it and removing the excess fat. It really is that simple! We just have to be determined like the Napergate Man was and get the job done!

Vanessa,

Thank you for finally spilling the beans on the root of the police issues:

"It is nice to be so rich and arrogant that you don't care about us not so rich and ordinary folks who need to watch our dollars to make it through in this world on a day and day basis."

Jealousy of salary certainly puts the anger and disdain that some of the Napergatians obviously have for the NPD finally into perspective.

Try getting a better job, busting your behind and earning more. You'll get over your anger, trust me. When I had crap jobs and little money I thought the world sucked too.. oppressed by 'the man'. Then one day I realized I had the power within me to earn more. The only thing stopping me from making more money at a better job was me. So I fixed that and never looked back. Lift yourself up, don't keep trying to pull everyone down into your own loathing pool filled with animosity.

Take the free advice for what it is because a Self Help guru would have charged you $300 for the same advice and made you buy 8 CD's and 3 books to eventually give you that simple message.

Did someone say anonymous?

There are at least five or six different posters on this thread with that name.

HI HO silver!

Marshall,

After re-reading Diana’s post, I see where I was mistaken in my understanding of your argument. I wonder, though, what the NPD’s critics exact position on the overtime issue is. Is it just the perceived over-coverage of downtown and the special events that bother you, or is it the principle of police getting paid any OT that you have a problem with?

-JQP

Joe, Joe, Joe, Joe?

Where have I heard that name before??

Joe, Joe, Joe,

Hmmmm

Oh, I got it!

I got it!

I got it!

Joe

Joe Matchett... that's you right?

Now I understand your position and the point of all your babbling. Darn if we had figured that out sooner we could have saved about 10,000 words wasting our time trying to reasonably discuss anything with head of the Naperville Police union.

Good bye Joe I won't waste my time replying to anything you post now.

Lisha –

You may not think Diana turns people off, but I do. We can agree to disagree since she likes to throw out unfounded accusations and you seem to want to defend her.

You seem to indicate that not only was the FOP rep lying in the Sun article, but that the Sun was compliant in this matter. If this is true, why has this not been challenged yet (in a credible way, not your unsupported accusations)? What proof do you have that the FOP rep was lying, other than you wish it was so? Just what “proof” would be good enough for you?

I took the article at face value and if the Chief Judge wants the cops to be there, then they should be there. What I suggested was that perhaps the NPD could do a cost/benefit analysis to see if OT is the best way to achieve this goal. It’s so simple yet you missed it altogether, right? I endorse the possibility that OT may not be the best way to keep the Chief Judge happy, yet you looked past this due to your inept misunderstanding of what I said.

I fully support the NPD and NFD OT for the fests, but I want the fest organizers’ reimbursements to go to the NPD/NFD OT budgets and not the general fund. I think that the crowds, heat, beer, etc deserve the large NPD and NFD presence. Safety is the main goal here. You may want be able to be cheap on some things, but I will never advocate being cheap on safety.

I don’t consider the money for the fest OT to be “laundered” as presented by some. First of all, this does not meet the definition of money laundering, but I digress. The fests are going to pay the OT fees anyways. If the city wants to give them money to help them pay the fees, I guess they’re allowed. However, I think the fests turn a profit (for charity) and have no need for the fees. That is why I do not think the “culture fund” should be used for the fees.

I have never seen 12 officers at Chicago Ave and have no problem with the NPD presence downtown because as stated with the fests, safety is the first concern. Putting dummy cop cars there is laughable, at best.

Unlike you, I haven’t been to traffic court in DuPage County so I’ll take your word for what it’s like. Nice example, but did it ever occur to you that the Willowbrook cop may have also been present in another courtroom that day, thus being there more than the one hour you saw him? Just one possibility you did not account for. It’s also possible he was at the DuPage courthouse to meet with Asst. State’s Attorney’s on other cases. There are a lot of ways he could fill his day that you would not personally see.

I may not have been in DuPage traffic court, but I have probably been in many more courtrooms than you have. You do not challenge or negotiate with a Chief Judge. That is there little fiefdom and what they say goes. They do not make exceptions for anyone or any department. Nice try, but if the Chief Judge says you have your officers there, you’ll do it or all your cases will get thrown out.

I really don’t care what support I get on this blog vs what Diana may get. The fact that she may get more support does not make what she said right. It does not make her assumptions right. It does not mean her attack on me was right. She said I made up facts, when in fact I quoted from the Sun. She was wrong, but sadly neither you nor she can come to grips with that. So be it.

I find it curious that you don’t like my style by starting sentences with “if “ or “but”, when really I am just doing the exact opposite of the Napergatians and not jumping to conclusions. That is the classic downfall of the Napergatians, as they prefer to jump to conclusions and attack someone without all the facts. I prefer to have the facts in front of me and am willing to ask for the facts I don’t currently have.

I presented a small analysis which accounted for 43% of the OT. My question is where does the other 57% come from? So far, nobody has answered that question. Don’t you think that info would be relevant?!? I offer no complete solutions because I don’t have all the info. It’s as simple as that. You may see this as “wishy washy”, when really I am just trying to say I don’t have all the answers because I don’t have all the facts.

Anyone who has all the solutions now is lying.

T.B.

Joe,

If one Napergatian may be having trouble paying her bills for whatever legitimate reason she has, that does not mean some or all Napergatians have anger and disdain for the NPD.

I think our disdain is for the wasteful overtime more so than for the individual police officer working on the street. Overtime is very costly and can eventually bite a piece out of any wallet if left unchecked.

Our overtime is currently 70 bucks per household. Do you want to head in Aurora's direction and have it become 140 bucks per household or would you rather nip it in the butt and control it before it starts biting more than Vanessa's butt?

If Vanessa is trying to simply make ends meet, are you really not insulting her by saying she has anger and disdain towards the NPD?

You were able to work 18 hours a day Joe. Maybe Vanessa is a single Mom with 4 children and can not work 18 hours a day.

I think you wronged her by being shallow and owe her an apology.

Thanks!

Marshal –

As Jim Lynch reported on April 28 @ 1:13 PM, ” As clearly stated in the Sun's story on Naperville police overtime, city police officers are prohibited from working second jobs.”

Just exactly why should NPD officers be allowed to work outside jobs? There are reasons for not allowing outside employment, from availability in emergencies to conflicts of interest.

Plus, the NPD working as private security opens up a vast array of liability issues I discussed in my post of today at 1:13 PM. This is not so black and white and if you had the NPD officers as private security, who would indemnify them against a lawsuit?

T.B.

"Joe Matchett... that's you right?"

Nope.

Christopher: The supposed math to determine it costing $70 to each household has already been shown to be bogus. Post up your real estate tax bill, we'll figure that out for you, then we can work in utility taxes and sales taxes over the year by percentages and figure out your real cost. I'll bet you $70 that it's less than $70.

Further, there's obviously a bone of contention w/ NPD salaries and pay otherwise it would not have been mentioned about 'rich/poor' and how 'any way you slice it' that police OT is costing us each personally $70 a month. That's BS. Let Vanessa post her tax bill figures too and we'll figure it out for her.

If you want to call BS on me, then post your math using YOUR numbers. Better yet, as mentioned before let's meet at the Sun and bring your tax bills. I'll bring my calculator and printout of page 50 w/ the budget percentages and give you a refund for 'your share' that you can prove is yours.

There is nothing to lose and money to gain. That's what people are complaining about, isn't it? Needing to keep more of their own money? Here's your chance.

"But they are not going to pay 3 to 4 times what a non-cop security guy makes for a fun festival where a shot was never ever fired such as the LAST FLING!"

Since when is the value of an officer whether they make a shot or not?! OMG...that says sooooo much! And Math skills is definitely a problem on this blog!

"Our overtime is currently 70 bucks per household"

Question...is there really a flat rate paid per household? I thought it is based on a percentage of what you pay in taxes?

Moderator,

You may want to start adding a hyper link to the referenced SUN articles in the opening statement section of each blog.

I agree that many facts and issues are discussed in the articles but it does require doing and hunt to find them. You may want to go as far as adding a list of related articles in hypertext.

Many thanks,

To Jim Lynch,

Hopefully you have been keeping notes on all the good leads for possible follow-up stories, to wit:

1. Is it just the Naperville Police Department or are there other Naperville city departments that need to have their overtime scrutinized? How much regular or overtime salaries did the Exchange Club and Jaycees have to pay other governmental groups like the Naperville Park District, the Naperville Park Police, Du Page County, etc.? While we are on that tract what does the overtime budget of the Naperville Park District look like?

2. Does a city ordinance, city policy, or something similar really exist that prohibits police officers in Naperville from having a "second job"? If so, what would it take to change it to allow them to take a second job? What is the "trend" among other chicago metro communities with regard to allowing their police officers to hold a second job?

3. Does the city allow event organizers to hire security other than police officers? Is this city policy? City ordinance? How can current practice be changed so that as much money as possible can flow directly to the charities involved without being consumed by salaries? All over there Chicago metropolitan area there are lots of other community events, Lisle has Eyes to the Sky, Wheaton has Cream of Wheaton, St Charles has Tasting of the Vine, etc, etc. How do these other communities handle police in terms of staffing numbers, overtime, and private security?

4. Hundreds of Naperville residents volunteer untold hours of their time for all kinds of community causes, events, and organizations. How many hours do Naperville Police Officers volunteer each year? It may not be in Naperville, but I sure would like to know they are doing something to volunteer when they are off the clock. And I mean something where they are giving of their time and talent to help others which means things like coaching their own kids baseball team really doesn't count because they are only there because their kid is on the team. Coaching a team where your kid isn't on it would though, because that is truly volunteering.

5. There definitely needs to be an in depth look at how other police departments across the Chicago metropolitan area manage their overtime in terms of court appearances. There have been lots of allegations that Naperville is way out of norm and we deserve to know why. What is happening in other counties as well. Is it only Dupage or does it happen in Will? Tell us about the allegations that the Chief Judge is some kind of dictatorial god that isn't approachable and doesn't care how payroll money is wasted. Tell us who he reports to and how we, as citizens, go about getting this aspect fixed if it truly is broken.

6. It was suggested that the City of Naperville bills police overtime at a flat hourly rate. Someone suggested about $54 per hour. Can this be verified? What is the actual cost of overtime from the lowest paid officer to the highest paid officer who can receive overtime? In other words is this a fair amount or are is the city overbilling? What overtime rates do other Chicago metropolitan communities bill for overtime?

7. How about printing a copy of the agreement between the police union and the City of Naperville? How about full public disclosure about all the term and deals that the contract contains which most citizens probably do not know about?

Just a few ideas that could help to really get at the factual heart of what this debate is about. Possibly some good stories for your reporters to work on that most everyone in Naperville would be interested in learning more about, especially what is factual and truthful as opposed to what is simply alleged.

Anonymous wrote:

"Hundreds of Naperville residents volunteer untold hours of their time for all kinds of community causes, events, and organizations. How many hours do Naperville Police Officers volunteer each year? It may not be in Naperville, but I sure would like to know they are doing something to volunteer when they are off the clock. And I mean something where they are giving of their time and talent to help others which means things like coaching their own kids baseball team really doesn't count because they are only there because their kid is on the team. Coaching a team where your kid isn't on it would though, because that is truly volunteering."

Why is this relevant?

By One Who Values You! on April 30, 2008 9:10 AM
"But they are not going to pay 3 to 4 times what a non-cop security guy makes for a fun festival where a shot was never ever fired such as the LAST FLING!"

"Our overtime is currently 70 bucks per household"

Question...is there really a flat rate paid per household? I thought it is based on a percentage of what you pay in taxes?

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Why are you being so dumb? It is clear that bloggers are talking about the average cost per household.

It is my feeling that the average cost per household based on 3.15 million overtime divided by 45,000 households is $70 per household...again emphasis on AVERAGE!

Some money from non-downtown businesses is going to defray this police overtime, but if it was not going there, it would be going to help reduce our real estate tax bills.

While coming up with an exact number is not always easy, Joe's number of .96 cents borders on insanity unless he lives in a dog shed behind his home that has a very low assesement. For all I know, he might.

I believe the Napergatians number is easily within 20% of being within the average cost a household is paying for police OT.

Of course, if someone owns a 4 million dollar mansion and the average is based on $400,000 homes in Naperville, the owner of the 4 million mansion will be paying $700 dollars for OT on his property bill.

If you average this $4 million mansion that pays $700 with Joe's Dog Shed that only pays .96 cents in taxes and everyone in between, you get that average of $70 dollar that Napergatians are talking about.

I do not think, Mr. Jim Lynch, would have made this big stink over .96 cents per household. He is way too intelligent to make an issue over .96 cents. He knows we have more important things than to worry about half the cost of a bottled water for Police OT per year!!!

Keep in mind if we not only reduce Police OT but unnecessary police REGULAR TIME such as 12 police officer patrolling Chicago Ave. who may be on regular time, we can cut not only save 3 million but possibly 6 million from the police budget.

There is a lot of waste in regular police time in this town that can be observed by anyone who chooses to look.

And those 2 festivals should be allowed to hire off duty police officers from Naperville or outside of Naperville who are willing to work for 15-25 dollar which appears to be the going rate. That could save them $70,000 dollars that can go to charity where it is suppose to go instead of police OT.

As far as T.B.s immature arguments of liability, if he had half of a brain, he would know the City of Naperville does not allow anyone to have any kind of festival without first providing proof of insurance to the City of Naperville. Thus the city has no libaility since the festivals are buying insurance to cover all potential liabiilities.

No liquor licensee in town can have a liquor license without proof of insurance. When a bar owners sells to a drunk and an accident results, the bar owner and the drunk are liable...not the City of Naperville!

The City of Naperville allows alcohol to be served at these festivals and all their ordinances require insurance especially when alcohol is involved.

Let us no be wishy washy and worry about these liability issues. Call the City of Naperville instead of writing theories all day and night on these blogs. I called the City of Naperville and they explained everyone has to buy their own insurance and the city is exempt from all liability.

Let us focus on the facts, T.B.! There is no need to pay 100k in OT for Naperville Police when it can be done for one third that amount if you take the connection cronyism element out of the equation.

Personally, I think you are dumb and stupid for wanting to pay OT when there is a way around it.

Are you stupid enough to call an A/C guy on Sunday and pay double time and a half out of your personal pocket instead of using a fan till Monday morning when you can get the air conditioning guy for regular time.

Based on my observations you do seem to be stupid enough to pay the Air Conditioning double time and a half for coming Sunday evening.

The rest of us are not nearly as stupid. I really don't know how the fine University of Illinois ever awarded someone so stupid an MBA. It almost seem impossible that they could graduate a guy who would rather pay double time and a half to fix his A/C on Sunday night instead of waiting till Monday morning for regular time.

And I can tell you double time and a half for an A/C guy can translate to $225 an hour plus they charge you for travel time and a flat fee for a truck charge. I once called and told them, No Thanks, I will wait till Monday morning when they me my rights!

If you would not be so stupid to do such a thing, then stop saying police OT is something you find acceptable when there are ways to avoid it.

Of course, I agree with Lisha and Diana!

Only dummies would agree with you...thank God the dummies are less than a handful on this entire blog site!!!

Christopher,

The 'average' cost model is bogus because of the way the city is funded by different taxes and fees. Each person's cost is completely dependent upon their real estate taxes and what they do in and around town to be subject to other taxes and fees.

While it may make a great 'talking point', it's still bogus math and has no basis in reality due to the nature of the city funding.

Christopher wrote:

"As far as T.B.s immature arguments of liability, if he had half of a brain, he would know the City of Naperville does not allow anyone to have any kind of festival without first providing proof of insurance to the City of Naperville. Thus the city has no libaility since the festivals are buying insurance to cover all potential liabiilities."

Insurance might cover the festival organizers, but the City of Naperville and the NPD might be subject to lawsuits for failing to provide adequate police protection if Last Fling or the Rib Fest were required to hire their own security and something were to happen. This is a reasonable argument. Calling T.B. "stupid", and his arguments "immature" is not an effective counter-argument. If you have a valid counter-argument, please present it, and try to do it without resorting to name-calling.

Christopher,

I think you hit it on the head by personalizing it.

How many residents would call an air conditioning guy and pay double time and a half for a repairman....almost none.

I doubt Joe would either.

He must be Joe Matchett to push for police OT as opposed to one third of that rate available in the free market for cop help.

Maybe the guy hates the Napergate Man becasue he was known to always be exposing government waste that cost us citizens.

Joe stands for government waste....only a person benefitting from it would stand for it...case closed!!!

Herb,

This Joe does most of that work himself and has a barter deal with an independent in the AC/heater business.

Until you can put forth a new shift schedule that provides the same amount of coverage for the city there's nothing to change. Please break it down with current versus your proposal and further break it down by beat and prior incident reports to show you have the city covered appropriately.

In the meantime, they should just jack up the cost of the liquor licenses and increase the alcohol and tobacco tax to make up for the budget shortfalls. Everyone always buys their vices. This is why many midwest towns have crumbled to nothing but churches, bars and liquor stores... they keep buying and won't give it up even all the way into poverty and debt as families are destroyed by it. Plenty of people like to exploit that weakness in people and make a killing, this town is no different.

Christopher,

The average cost model or example is just fine. As proof of that think of every time the school district or forest preserve asks for a new referendum they tell us about how much it will cost everyone "on average". I know you and I are smart enough, as is everyone else in Naperville with the except Joe, to be able to figure out when they say it will cost "X" based upon a home value of "Y"... we know if our home is worth more or less than "Y" and can guess pretty close to what it will cost. There was also some bantering about (not to get off thread here, only to use it as a supporting example!!) from Wherli and the Finance Director about how much the DF lawsuit was going to cost each household.

Yea, the average cost model works accurately enough for me and for just about everyone but Joe.

Doing a little research I find that the number of housing units being used is the total number of housing units from the 2000 cencus. I did find what appears to be a more recent listing of 51,940 housing units since the number is higher, though it was not dated. Taking the $3.1 million dollars and dividing it by 51,940 housing units we still have a per household cost of $60.00. This is not to downplay the significance or value of $60 by any means only to point out that it is still substantially higher than the less than $1 cost some would lead us to believe.

What is just realized and this is kind of frightening. Sorry but the connection never hit me before now. When you put the $60 in terms of what you posted earlier about paying the A/C guy to come out on a Sat, Sun, holiday, or even an evening. Think about this! Think about this really hard. At a cost of $60 per household... that means every single house, condo, duplex, apartment, etc. in Naperville is paying for 1 hour and 7 minutes of police overtime every year! Holy cow every single household! Imagine that!

Let's see $3,100,000 in police overtime per year

divided by

196 police officers

equals

an average of $15,816 of overtime for every police officer this year.

OK, then $15,816

divided by

52 weeks

equals

an average of $304 of overtime for every police officer every week of the year.

What that means is that

$304 in overtime

divided by

$54.00 per hour

equals

an average of every single police officer is working 6 hours of overtime every single week of the year.

Now unless my math is incorrect that means that our entire police department is literally working a 6 day work week continuously... just 2 hours short of a full 6 day work week every single week of the year.

When I was in college I did shift work and was frequently forced to work Saturdays which meant a six day work week. Sometimes this would go for a month or two and everyone hated it. By the 6th or 7th week it was getting close to a mutiny... and every single one of our police officers are working nearly 6 days a week every week of the year and they are not screaming about it, their commanders are not worried about burn-out or stress, or sleep deprivation, or just plain fatigue induced mistakes?

Dear lord, this is far worse than I first imagined. Sure the $100,000 associated with Ribfest and Last Fling are very, very troubling, but there are enormous ramifications to what the entire police force is being subjected to in terms of work hours.

No one should be required or expected or even allowed to volunteer to work these kinds of hours. The police department staffing levels and overtime system clearly needs to be fully investigated to find out just what in the heck is going on over at 1350 Aurora Ave. This stinks to high heaven and appears to be getting worse not better. Somebody at City Hall better find out what is going on over there and start looking in to what is broken and how to get it fixed.

John. Q. Public,

The name calling is uncalled for. However, if you read T.B.s blogs lately they do go in circles as if he is debating himself.

He approves of this enormous police OT that is being imposed on Charity Events at my expense and your expense. He does not care to even ask if you and I can even afford it.

I guess as Christopher asks, is he willing to pay OT for people to work on his home and personal equipment such as his stove, dishwasher and TV. I suspect not!

Of course, he is not if he is a normal human being! But when it comes to taxpayer money that is in a joint pool, he seems not to care about how it is spent.

If it was his personal money, I bet he would care much more. I bet if he was having a big party and needed security he would hire the 15 dollar per hour off duty cop free lancing than the Naperville Cop charging for $54 bucks per hour.

I am not going to call him any names but he does have me boiling from his lack of understanding that money does not grow on trees and we have to get things done by bidding out for the lowest price with the highest quality within reason.

T.B. really makes absolutely no sense for an adult Napervillian.

His arguments are immature much like a 5th grader.

I once thought Joe was the King of Rises. I really think T.B. is the King of Rises while Joe is the King of Craziness.

One can only take so much of these guys and their belief in government waste.

T.B. seems very unusual. He seems to have a personal agenda. He seems to be another Quick Question playing games with the bloggers.

___________________________________________________________________

Mr. Public again,

I also suspect some of these individuals who have no problem with all this OVERTIME do not actually live in Naperville but work in Naperville. Thus they benefit without being hurt in the pocketbook or wallet.

If a police officer lives in Bolingbrook but works in Naperville, he/she is benefitting from all this OVERTIME without even having to participate in FUNDING it with his or her taxes...naturally he/she would love this overtime as he/she benefits from it 100% at no cost to him/her. I bet he/she would be watching the Bolingbrook Police Overtime costs to make sure he/she could afford them on his/her real estate tax bill.

Anonymous on April 30, 2008 4:58 PM wrote

"Doing a little research I find that the number of housing units being used is the total number of housing units from the 2000 cencus. I did find what appears to be a more recent listing of 51,940 housing units since the number is higher, though it was not dated. Taking the $3.1 million dollars and dividing it by 51,940 housing units we still have a per household cost of $60.00."

You also have to figure in the property taxes paid by commercial and industrial landowners.

Here is your chance everyone: Please apply and start fixing that which you believe is broken. Start with a small team and work your way up to the whole department when your awesome sweeping changes set the place straight!

http://tinyurl.com/4hhf6l

POLICE RECORDS (SHIFT) SUPERVISOR
City of Naperville
Naperville, Illinois, United States

This is not an entry-level position.

Job ID: 4349735
Job Duration: Indefinite
Position Title: POLICE RECORDS (SHIFT) SUPERVISOR
Industry: Local and State/Provincial Government
Min Education: Associates Degree

Posted: April 8, 2008
Min Experience: 1-2 Years
Job Function: Document Management
Job Type: Full-Time
Salary: $19.85 - $21.00 (Hourly Wage)

This should be a cakewalk for all of those self-proclaimed experts in scheduling and resource usage at police departments. It might even pay more than some are currently making.

Go for it!

By John Q. Public on April 30, 2008 5:56 PM
Anonymous on April 30, 2008 4:58 PM wrote

"Doing a little research I find that the number of housing units being used is the total number of housing units from the 2000 cencus. I did find what appears to be a more recent listing of 51,940 housing units since the number is higher, though it was not dated. Taking the $3.1 million dollars and dividing it by 51,940 housing units we still have a per household cost of $60.00."

You also have to figure in the property taxes paid by commercial and industrial landowners.

____________________________________________________________________

John,
You are right. When the Napergatian were pushing for the $70 dollars per household based on 45,000 units, they adjusted downwards to $60 dollar per household to factor in the commercial.

I figure we now may have to adjust it from 60 dollars to 50 dollars to factor in commercial. But Joe's .96 cents per household, I hope we all agree is nonsense.

The commercial component is probably less than 10 dollars since I do not believe 20% of the town is commercial. Keep in mind all the apartment complexes which are commercial in a sense, are most probably included in the residential households of 51,940 housing units. Thus we may be excluding something that should be included and a more accurate number could be 55 bucks per household. There is some guess work involved but I believe we are very close to the true numbers of cost per household!

But it does bother me, including downtown commercial in the equation, since they are heavily subsidized and could not be contributing anything to POLICE OVERTIME because they can not even afford their own parking....or more appropriately can afford it but not paying their fair share due to cronyism and connections to City Hall!

My 2 cents worth!

I sure am glad that I don't use the napergatian calculator to figure out my bills. According to you math geniuses, a 3.15 million expenditure costs each household an average of $70. Does this special napergate math only work with the police budget? Here is an example using normal math from a school tax almost thirteen times that amount:

A $40 million take hike would cost the owner of a $331,000 home roughly $76 a year in additional property taxes for each of the next 20 years.

This information can be found in this article about the plans for the Central renovation:http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=71761

Care to explain why the cost seems to be about the same for 3.15 million as 40 million? Do all of you napergatians overpay all your bills by thirteen times what is due?

As usual, Joe offered hard numbers with facts to back them up. It would be nice if the napergatians could do the same. Since they can't, I guess they will have to stick to the usual tactics of name calling and misdirection.

Dearest Joe,

Don't give up your day job, whatever that might be. I just hope you are not entrusted with handling large sums of cash as money management and math do not appear to be your strong suits.

I don't expect you will get many takers for your offer for the following reasons:

$21.00 per hour times 40 hours per week times 52 weeks per year equals $43,680.00 per year.

$21.00 per hour times 1.5 OT rate times 6 hours per week times 52 weeks per year equals $9,828 per year in overtime.

$43,680 plus $9,828 equals $53,508 total per year. Pretty damn good for someone with only 2 years of college and 1-2 years of experience.

However, a salary of $53,508 equates to the home purchasing power of about $134,000. With the average home in Naperville going for $380,000 I'm not sure you are going to attract much interest among Naperville residents and taxpayers. That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

To Christopher...

First, knock off the name calling...it just says something more about you.

Next, yes I know if you say avg but say then some are paying more or less & place it in context. If you have a 4M home, 700 is not as dramatic as you make it. Yes, I wish I had a free 700 to give but heck 70 dollars to those in that tax bracket...which quite frankly would probably be me...is what a tank of gas for me? Come on! Geez, my gym shoes are more than that. I can't give up buying about 4 cds that I probably will get less value out of than a police officer's value. And for you to judge whether officers are needed without even knowing anything behind the scenes of what goes on...heck it doesn't take a degree even to critically think that you just may not know everything you think you do to evaluate whether they are needed or not.

Now liability for people at the festival may be different than the officers. Sure if I go to the festival & get injured I would be covered but if the police officers is injured while on duty that is usually different I believe. Where are the officers...let us know.

Next, your lovely AC example doesn't work for me. Sure I would wait until Mon...unless my Sun is a day where I have a party which would be like the Festival! And quite frankly if it is 100 degrees outside I may not even wait until Monday...and there are so many other factors to consider someone pregnant in the house, sick etc...again...life is not simple as you think! Critically think that there may be other reasons you might pay!

Christopher—

Let’s see…”if he had half of a brain”…”dumb and stupid”…”stupid”…? Just what are you trying to say?

In my first draft of a response to you, I had a few choice words for you and it was very therapeutic. However, since I usually strive to stay above that kind of crap, I’ll clean it up for you. I’m sure Ted will be appreciative of this, too.

I have consistently stated that I am against wasteful OT expenses, but I also see that not all NPD OT expenses can be eliminated, thus not all OT is wasteful. There will always be OT in certain situations such as the recent murder investigation.

I just happen to believe that the fest-related OT is worthwhile. One of the main reasons I believe this is because the OT expenses are reimbursed from the fest organizers. I have, however, called for two changes in the reimbursement of the fest OT. One, the reimbursed funds need to go back to the NPD and not the general fund. Second, the fests should not receive Culture Fund money for the OT and pay the OT themselves. The fests don’t need the Culture Fund money to pay for the OT and the fests don’t fall within my definition of culture.

I assume that prior to the Culture Fund, the fests paid their own OT expense reimbursements. Why can’t they do it now? Are they going to say that they can’t afford to pay this after charging people to get in (the Hill at least for the Fling) and charging $6 or $7 for a beer? All the Culture Fund money is doing is subsidizing the fests’ charities.

Although the fests are required to have insurance, what do you think would happen if an off-duty cop did anything that could be construed as within the scope of their employment (you know, anything police-like) and someone gets hurt? Do you really think some lawyer would be satisfied with suing just the fest organizers and their insurance company and pass up an opportunity to sue the cop individually or the city? All they would have to do was argue that the cop acted as a city employee during the incident and they could go after the deep pockets of Naperville’s taxpayers. Is this what you want? Avoid the OT expense now for a possible million dollar settlement down the road?

Also, if a cop was injured at a fest he may claim that he was acting as a police officer during the incident and try to get disability from the city. Being a cop is not a job where you clock in and clock out. If a crime happens in front of a cop and they respond, they are in effect acting as a cop and not some ordinary citizen.

I hope this assists your understanding of my positions. Clean up the language and maybe I’ll take you seriously sometime.

T.B.

Dearest Ken,

You must have been sitting in the back of math class with Joe is the reason you don't understand your own example:

A $40 million dollar bond referendum will be paid back with interest to those who buy the bonds. I do not know the exact interest rate these bonds will pay or the method by which interest will accrue so the exact amount of interest is hard to calculate.

But to keep this as simple as possible for you... $40 million divided by 20 years means that the taxpayers will be paying back, on average $2 million per year in principal plus interest which interestingly will probably be awfully darn close to the $3.1 million we started discussing.

Actually, thank you for providing yet another great example that supports the argument of approximately what every household will be paying every year for police overtime!

From post By Ken on April 30, 2008 9:37 PM

"A $40 million take hike would cost the owner of a $331,000 home roughly $76 a year in additional property taxes for each of the next 20 years."

So, according to basic arithmetic, $40 million divided by 20 is $2 million a year. Thus $76 is paid by each household each year to cover $2 million each year (of course, interest expense is also being covered by the annual $76).

Now, some claim that annual amount of $3.15 million costs an average taxpapers $70 per year.

You also said "Care to explain why the cost seems to be about the same for 3.15 million as 40 million? Do all of you napergatians overpay all your bills by thirteen times what is due?

As usual, Joe offered hard numbers with facts to back them up. It would be nice if the napergatians could do the same. Since they can't, I guess they will have to stick to the usual tactics of name calling and misdirection."

Which arithmetic do you now believe?

This name calling is childish and getting out of hand as it only serves to further distract everyone from the discussion at hand which is supposed to be police OT. No one is ever going to succeed in building themselves up by tearing someone else down.

Trying to label and stereotype people who may or may not be "napergatians" simply isn't relevent to this discussion nor is trying to discredit their current opinion based upon what their opinion may have been at the time of Napergate.

We all have our perspective and opinions. Some of us may have been around back in the days of Napergate. Some of us may not even have a clue what Napergate was all about. The only thing that actually is relevant is what people think today about police OT.

I can accept their perspective that they believe there are long term, systemic issues within the police department that the city council, city manager, and police command have not adequately addressed or resolved. Police overtime to them is simply one manifestation of these long term, systemic issues.

Feel free to disagree. But if you want your opinion appreciated, respected, and taken seriously you need to raise your game several notches.

Well, Anonymouse and Rod, I still believe Joe's math. Although I did not delve into my example completely as I believed you might be capable of a little thought on your own, I see I was wrong. You are incapable of any thought. Did you forget about all the interest added on to that $40 million? It still will come out per year to more than the $3.15 million in overtime.

What Anonymouse (who is to afraid to post under any type of name) and you forget Rod, is that Joe also showed the true amount of residential property tax that goes to the budget. He also showed where he got his figures from in the city web site. The inconvenient fact you keep glossing over is the fact that property taxes only pay for about 16% of the budget.

As usual, the facts trump your suppositions. As usual, you continue to ignore or deny the facts.

NAPERGATE CALCULATOR IS ACCURATE:

If one was to assume that this $40,000,000 School Bond is being financed at 5% for these 20 years, the cost of interest based on the Napergate Calculator is exactly $23,356,000 dollars over the entire 20 years.

Thus the total cost would be $40,000,000 plus $23,356,000 = $63,356,000. Annualized we get a cost of $3,167,800 per year for both principal and interest.

According to Ken quoting the Daily Herald:

"A $40 million take hike would cost the owner of a $331,000 home roughly $76 a year in additional property taxes for each of the next 20 years."

Since we have determined that the annual cost of the school bond of $3,167,000 is almost identical to the POLICE OVERTIME of $3,150,000, one can reasonbly conclude that the cost to the owner of a $331,000 dollar home in Naperville is also paying a few pennies shy of $76 for police overtime.

I guess Joe and Ken did not only sit in the back of the math class but were truant from all math classes.

The Napergatians were saying from day one it is approimately $70 dollars. Using the Napergate Calculator at a 5% interest rate it is $76 dollars. Maybe the Napergatians were plugging in Ken's interest rate of 4% that he proposed as the interest for the 20,000,000 finaning for the parking decks. If they were using 4%, the Napergatian Calculator will bring us very close to the $70 dollars they were stating form Day One.(I did not run the 4% thru the Napergate Calculator which I am estimating, but the 5% was an exact number that was run thru the NC)

Bottom line it was proven the Napergatian Calculators are very accurate and the Napergatians did not sit in the back of the math class. They sat in front and paid attention.

Anybody who thought the Naperville Sun would make a big stink out of .96 cents as Joe suspected is out of their minds.

What Joe and these 4 other city supporters don't seem to understand is that if you add the Police Overtime with the School Bond, you suddenly have $152 dollars. Add regular police waste on regular time for another possible $6,300,000 and you suddenly have $302 dollars per household. It all adds up quickly and you need to nip each item in the butt with no exceptions as the Napergate Man did.

He attacked every expenditure in City Hall and when he added them all up, he saw what we are beginning to see. The result was he was able to get people motivated to go the polls and oust 4 estbalishment council members rather easily in 1999 as he must have realized voters do care about their hard earned money.

We have to follow in his approach and explain to the taxpayers what all these excesses are costing us taxpayers in these inflationary and recessionary economic times.

Once we get through to the taxpayers, we will impact the next elections. The only thing we are lacking is those very powerful and convincing Napergate ads.

This is where we need help from the Naperville Sun! While these blogs are great and educational, they do not have the impact of the Napergate ads.

We have 500 Napergatians on here, 5 regular city supporters and maybe 50-100 other neutrals who are blogging. That is 555-605 residents not counting the District 204 residents who live in their own world. We can not impact the next election like the Napergate Man did who reached 22,000 subscribers and 50,000 readers in a small town without the help of the print edition of the Naperville Sun.

The print edition of the Naperville Sun can enable us to reach 16,200 subscribers and 40,000 plus readers. That is a lot more than 555-605 people of whom 505 have already made up their minds.

I think we have got the bus started as the Naperville Sun asked us to do many months ago. It is even rolling! The Naperville Sun needs to ram the bus through City Hall as the Napergate Man rammed the bus through City Hall.

City Officials are very stubborn. If you don't hit them hard and long, they don't get it. They are like the 5 city supporters(Joe, Ken, SWT, RJ and T.B.). No matter how hard you hit them, no matter what facts you show them, no matter what documents you present to them, they refuse to open their minds and say they are wrong.

Does anyone expect Joe and Ken to come on and admit they flunked math? Can you believe their calculation of .96 cents? I guess by deceiving the homeowners, they were trying to get their support on this police OT issue.

These were tactics tried in the Napergate Days that simply did not work. The Napergate Man loved exposing them. I am sure the 500 Napergatians will get the job done just as the Napergate Man did....we simply need an assist from the Naperville Sun since we don't have the money to buy all that INK!!!

Thanks in advance to Sun Officials for any INK they can supply for a good cause!!!

New tax bills today.

My city portion paying for police OT for real estate taxes are:
(I included the park district money and pension funds too just to make sure I lumped EVERYTHING in)

$1415 * .16 (% of city budget for RE taxes) * .008 (percentage of city budget that is police OT)

== $ 1.81

Here's $2.. keep the change.

What's yours, Maryann?

Maryann,

Very nice analysis and comparison.

This Ken gentleman claims to have great comprehension but he can not differentiate one year from 20 years.

Now after proving his math knowledge is lacking, he is suddenly endorsing Joe's math as if he is a Professor of Math.

You walk us thru the math step by step just like Randy did for the parking garages and made it simple.

Joe tells us we need to meet him in person for him to analyse our personal real estate tax bills.

Joe reminds me of the store front on Jefferson that had psychics that would read your palm for information.

I am sure Joe would rub his hand against my real estate tax bill and tell me since my house is a little smaller than his my cost for police overtime is only .79 cents per year...yeah I wish!

It just seem you Napergatians are dealing with kids on this thread. It is too bad the City of Naperville can't put up the best it has instead of the worse it has to speak on its behalf!

My Dearest Ken,

To quote you, "The inconvenient fact you keep glossing over is the fact that property taxes only pay for about 16% of the budget."

Yeah, but the fundamental flaw in your argument is that from a property owners perspective our taxes always simply will be too high and we don't want to pay a penny more. We especially do not want to pay for any wasteful spending.

Find us one property owner who will say their taxes are too low, who will say they should be paying more and want their taxes raised. Good Luck finding even one because that person doesn't exist on this planet.

Thinking of it the other way if there is this much waste in just this 16%, then how much additional waste is accounted for in the other 84% of the budget? We need to go after that other 84%.

Joe and Ken,

I agree with Maryann's math.

I think you gentlemen have to think of the 45,000 household owners of Naperville as the rightful owners of the city and all the money that comes in from business, residents, profit on interest, or whatever source it may be is our money before it is disbursed.

It is ours before it is spent.

Thus that $3,150,000 was our money before it was spent on POLICE OT.

We owned that money. We did not have to spend it on POLICE OT. If we did not each household would be $70 dollars richer. But because we did, each household is $70 dollar poorer.

It is really a simple concept as the School Boards seem to understand and comprehend.

I think you are both reading too much into it and literally confusing yourselves.

No one is going to buy that 3,150,000 dollars only cost each household a loss of .96 cents.

You would need 3,281,250 households in Naperville to make your numbers make any sense. That is more households than probably exist in the entire State of Illinois!

Let us try to keep it simple.

Police OVERTIME is very costly and we need to find ways to eliminate it. It can cost $75 dollars per hour to pay a senior NPD officer for one hour of OT. That is almost $600 dollars for an 8 hour shift at the Last Fling or Rib Fest.

Corporate Attorneys don't even make that kind of money and they have to work hard all day...not just walk up and down Jackson during the Last Fling enjoying the atmosphere as we do.

Imagine we are paying 33 police officers 600 dollars each for an OT shift at the Last Fling to break up one fight at most per day. Most civilians would break up that fight anyway. And security guards can get the job done for 100 dollars a day saving us 83.33% on police OT.

Yes, I mean us since we are paying for this crazy OT through the cultural fund which is sales tax collected mostly from Naperville Residents at 1%. How deceptive that cultural tax is laundered into a charity and used to pay for police OT?!

I would rather have a dictatorship run by the Napergate Man than this current form of government that is in fact a dictatorship of the establishment under the disguise of democracy! At least in a Napergatian Dictatorship the goal would be to reduce taxes instead of enrich the wealthy at the expense of the average citizen.

Joe,

You went from $6 dollar to .96 cents to a $1.81 in 3 days.

Do you think you have any credibility left on Ted's Threads?

You obviously don't know anything about math so why are you trying to calculate?

You can not be an expert in all fields.

You act like you are...all you're doing is showing your fellow bloggers how incompetent you are.

Maryann really does make sense. She keeps it simple. She proves her point using a calculator that can be found on the internet.

I checked her math...it was accurate!!!

Sorry Joe and Ken!!!

Maryann and Chuck, you still cannot read and comprehend. Real estate taxes account for only 16% of the budget, as Joe has conclusively shown. The school referendums are paid for in whole by property taxes. To make your napergate math accurate, you would only use 16% of $3,167,800 divided by the total number of property tax payers to be accurate.

I will admit I was wrong...I thought you had minimal math abilities and did not explain all the math to you. I forgot that when dealing with people that deny the facts, one has to make them as plain as possible.

Chuckles,

I only offered to meet in person to give you your fair share from your tax bill that is police OT.

If you don't want the money itself then just post up your City portion and we'll figure it out for you.

Ken,

I am sorry but you are making a fool of yourself talking about everyone's reading comprehension day and night. You post one single sentence and can not comprehend if it was talking about one year or twenty years even though that one sentence spelled it out clearly.

Instead of racing with Joe as to who can be the highest poster each day, why don't you try to do some research and think before you post.

It seems like you and Joe are competing for the biggest fool on this blog side as opposed to the poster with the largest number of posts.

Let get a life, folks! Seriously! How about some quality instead of worthless quantity all the time!

The Napergatians have a good agenda...to reduce our taxes!!!

What is your agenda....attacking Napergatians day and night?

What is really wrong with the Napergatian Agenda of wanting to replace $75 dollar police OT with security guards who work for $10.00 an hour on Chicago Ave. or during festivals like the Pig Fest and Last Fling.

Instead of having 33 police officers making 75 dollars an hour, you have 3 top notch police officers making 75 dollar an hour in overtime, supplemented by 30 security guards making 10-15 dollars per hour in straight time.

They would be like the eyes and ears of these 3 top notch experienced senior Naperville Police Officers. When that once a day fight possibly develops, they radio the police officers to come help or make the arrest. It is not like a hundred fights are breaking each day.

I have been going to the Last Fling for 20 years and have yet to see one single fight.

I have never been to the Pig Fest because I hate pig meat. If they bring in some beef ribs, I will be there too.

Maryann,

Thanks for explaning my tax bell.

It is way too too too high.

Every yeer it gets higher and higher.

Way to0 much!

I hope someone listens to these good Napergatinas who maen well and are just triing to help us people out.

Government in Naperville all they do now is tax tax tax tax..raise taxs to the high sky....why...!!!

Where the money go?

No one udnerstands

Please stop wasting our money city officials!

It is becomeing hard to afford our homess!!!

Thank you!

T.B.,

I can't understand why you feel Naperville Police at OT should be imposed on Charities. I think your arguments are ludicrous and ridiculous.

Let them get off duty cops for competitive rates known to be 15-25 dollars in the Chicagoland area.

Your liability arguments hold no water. These festivals buy insurace to cover all liability. The city makes sure of that. Insurance companies have billions of dollars and it is doubtful a claim is going to exceed a billion dollars even if someone was shot.

No one has ever been shot.

You are basically trying to scare people over a hypothetical that will most likely and hopefully never happen, to help a police buddy or yours get or getting OT.

You are such a hypocrit....an owl can see through you in the dark...

Joe,

I could be wrong but here is where I think where you have gone wrong.

You are suppose to take $1415 and DIVIDE(not multiply) by .16 and multiply it by .008.

Guess what you get...$70.75... a number very close to the Napergatians and School Board numbers.

That portion you are showing only contributes to 16% of the City Budget. The citizens are taxed in many other ways such as sales tax, electricity tax, water tax, stamps on selling a home, impact fees, telephone tax. All together they make 100%

Since .16 is only 1/6.25 of the City Budget you need to multiply by 6.25.

Thus your true cost is 6.25 X $1415 = $8843.75 x .008 = $70.75

If you live in an average size house this all makes sense.

It jives with the Napergatian numbers, the School Board numbers and common sense.

Your only mistake is you were multiplying by .16 instead of dividing by .16.

If we were all only contributing .96 cents to police over time we would need millions of residents to pay for it. We would need more than the entire population of Chicago to pay for it. Not households of Chicago but individuals...every man, woman and child plus Aurora and Rockford!

This $380,000,000 million Budget is coming mostly from the residential taxpayers. The downtown businesses are a net loss with there contributions. Non-downtown are contributing a small portion. But keep in mind most business in Naperville are owned by Napervillians thus it is mostly residential money coming indirectly.

It has been documented that businesses like Heaven on Seven pay less tax than most homes in Naperville during numerous City Council meetings. We may have a 1000 businesses in town. We have nearly 52,000 residential dwellings. That should tell you where most of the money is coming from in Naperville. Even if you say we have 2000 businesses, that is only 4% of the number of residential homes.

Naperville is loaded with multi-million dollar homes that pay many times the tax of a Heaven on 7. Some of these huge mansions pay 10 times the tax of Heaven on 7 and other restuarants, bars and retailers in Naperville.

The Napergatians were very generous when they said assume 20% comes from businesses. 10% is even more than generous.

The Napergatians and School Board numbers make sense to me. Most probably they are right!

My number is $70.75 based on the value of your home. We have to adjust this number up or down depending on what your home is worth compared to the average, to find out what the average household is paying in Naperville.

I would stop pushing that .96 cent number. Honestly, it makes no sense, Joe!!!

My Dearest Ken,

To quote you, "The inconvenient fact you keep glossing over is the fact that property taxes only pay for about 16% of the budget."

Yeah, but the fundamental flaw in your argument is that from a property owners perspective our taxes always simply will be too high and we don't want to pay a penny more. We especially do not want to pay for any wasteful spending.

Find us one property owner who will say their taxes are too low, who will say they should be paying more and want their taxes raised. Good Luck finding even one because that person doesn't exist on this planet.

Thinking of it the other way if there is this much waste in just this 16%, then how much additional waste is accounted for in the other 84% of the budget? We need to go after that other 84%.

I'm glad (and hope) none of you are responsible for making the financial, and budgetary decisions for the city. It's a good thing our city policies and decisions are not decided by referendum!!!

I support compensation for police protection, and public safety. There are always ways to trim the fat to reduce property taxes. The city portion of our property tax has been dropping for several years, and it is unfortunate we will experience an upcoming increase. May I remind you it is NOT due to the police operating budget.

Cutting our police and fire protection costs are not top priorities to me, and I hope they are not top priorities for our elected officials.

The $300.00 or so that I paid to the city on my property taxes is less than I paid for my health club membership. If a good chunk of that goes to the police department, I'm all for it. According to the city website, in 2007 32% of the general fund was apportioned to the police department. Don't make me do the math, please!

I don't support waste, but I find most of the police bashing, and criticism expressed on these blogs is fueled by vengeance, rather than reality.

By Ken on May 1, 2008 12:17 PM

"Well, Anonymouse and Rod, I still believe Joe's math. Although I did not delve into my example completely as I believed you might be capable of a little thought on your own, I see I was wrong. You are incapable of any thought. Did you forget about all the interest added on to that $40 million? It still will come out per year to more than the $3.15 million in overtime."

Ken introduced his example that dealt with cost per average household ($40 million over 20 years at an annual cost of $76 per household). His use of the example itself was okay. But his logic was flawed as he tried to make a direct comparison between an amount being paid off over 20 years (at $76 per year) and an annual amount of $3.15 million that was being paid for in one year (at what someone calculated as $70 per year for a typical household). He did not annualize the $40 million expenditure so that it could be compared with the $3.15 million number that was an annual number. All I wanted him to do was to have him recognize that he needed to compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges.

Ken didn't read my post very well as I said that the $76 annual amount also included a portion to cover interest, with the inference that a total of more than $40 million would be paid over 20 years.

Note the there is a different between cost and revenue. What something costs does not reflect how it is paid for. That is, the $70 per household number is probably a fairly good estimate of what the $3.15 million in overtime "cost" per household as this is a straight forward calculation of taking total expenditure and dividing it by the total households. On the other hand, how much each household is contributing toward the revenue side is calculated differently. But, this number is not just a direct reflection of the property tax bill as households contribute toward the revenue in a lot of different ways (e.g., sales taxes paid, utility taxes paid, etc.).

The overall discussion has leaned toward what some feel is too much overtime paid out. Thus, to me, the more relevant number to get one's attention is the cost side. That is, the $70 per household expended for the overtime gives a much better picture of the magnitude of the expenditure.

Kim, Howard, Loretta and calculation for Joe:

First, the calculation error...

To get 16% of a number, you multiply by .16 not divide by .16

16% of a number is NOT GREATER THAN THAT NUMBER.

Watch.. 16% of 100 is 16

100 * .16 = 16

Your calculation doing division yields:

100 / .16 = 625 625 IS NOT 16% of 100.

Sorry, but you are simply wrong there.

My $1415 paid to the city according to my 2007 tax bill that came in the mail today does not magically turn into $8,843 when it hits into the City's General Fund. Money isn't magically created.

The 96 cents I quoted previously was from an old tax bill. Since my new one came today, I updated my number because I have newer better data to work with. It's called being accurate. New data = new more accurate number.

Loretta, see above as to why my number changed. I already explained the $6 to $0.96 by virtue of the fact that originally I was not taking into account what percentage of the general fund property taxes were (16%) That's why $6 went to 96 cents... because 96 cents is 16% of $6. It bumped higher today because my new tax bill came so I adjusted my figures using the most current data.

Kim, While technically you may be doing correct arithmetic by saying 3.15 million / 45,000 = 70, that is NOT how it is actually collected from the residents. That would be like me going into Carmax and saying you inventory is worth X and you have Y cars on the lot, so I want the best car you have for x/y price. It doesn't work that way. The price is what is on the window and each one is different. I know it sounds 'simpler' to think of it in the Napergatian terms of one straight division but that is not how it's actually calculated in the real world. By your math the 380 million dollar city budget should cost me $8444.44 in city taxes. It doesn't. It costs me $1415. Revenue also comes from outside the city to defray our costs considerably. That is something the Napergatian math fails to take into account in the 'simple' formula you all keep trying to use.

Stop trying to 'frame' the cost into something that does not reflect reality. Also, don't assume that just because the city collects money that it all of a sudden makes it yours, Kim. It's the city's. If you don't like how they spend it, then get yourself elected and change it (to paraphrase DF at the IPPC legislative breakfast on 4/28).

Howard, I don't have a problem w/ the Napergatian agenda to lower taxes. They simply have a problem with their math. Some things are worth paying for and we can agree to disagree on what those specific things are and many times we have actually agreed (library parking deck for example being a waste of money). I would also add the concrete noise making phallic symbol on the Riverwalk as another waste of money.

How about this 'Simple' math calculation.

I'll even go out on a limb and compromise your math (using 'averages') and my math (using actuals) and blend it together:

Facts:

Real Estate taxes are only 16% of the total revenue for the entire City general fund. I provided a link to the city budget to prove this.

Police OT is .8% (.008) of the entire general fund. Again, proved by the city budget document.

-------

To figure out how much of the Police OT budget comes from real estate taxes we calculate 16% of the Police OT amount:

3,150,000 * .16 (16%) == $504,000 This is how much of the police OT spending comes from Real Estate Taxes.

Let's take the Napergatian 45,000 household number and do some "Napergate Averaging Math":

$504,000 / 45,000 == $11.20 ON AVERAGE per household.

If we take the other household number tossed out of 52,000 we have:

$504,000 / 52,000 == $9.69 ON AVERAGE per household.

Let's also add in the 2,000 businesses claimed to spread it over 54,000 'taxpayers':

$504,000 / 54,000 == $9.33 ON AVERAGE per 'household' (residential and businesses)

Far far below the $70.00 claimed and set forth by the Napergate Calculator.

Again, this is not reflective of the differences in property taxes people pay because everyone's homes are assessed to a different amount. Some pay more, some pay less. Your mileage may vary. Mine equates out to $1.81 based on my 2007 property tax bill. I would imagine almost everyone else's comes out below the 'average' as well. Post up your taxes and we can all do it together. If you don't have a bill, then go ask Mom or Dad to see it and post up the numbers. If they don't have it either, you must be renting or sleeping on someone's sofa and in essence, paying even less than that.

Adam-

My argument is really very simple in that I feel the NPD and NFD would do the best job protecting the fests. If the fests turn to private security, there is no guarantee that off-duty cops would be hired instead of some aged, incompetent, and under-trained “mall cop”. Why would the fests hire off-duty cops at your $15-25 rate when they could hire the equivalent of bar bouncers for less? There are some things you can do cheaply; I just don’t believe safety is one of them. Safety should

“No one has ever been shot.” I ‘m not trying to scare anyone but I believe that you plan for the worst-case scenario, not the best. Neither I nor any of my friends work for the NPD. Nobody I know does or would benefit from any police OT, fest-related or otherwise.

Please note that I have repeatedly stated that the OT time and cost should be reduced, I just don’t think the fests are the place to start. Besides, the fest OT is 3% of total OT dollars. There’s another 97% where OT can be cut even if the fest OT is kept.

What’s the root of your argument, the amount of the OT for the fests, or your opinion that this expense is “imposed” on the fests? I just happen to believe that the fests can afford these expenses.

Rib Fest is advertised far and wide and draws so many people they have to close the gates. I know many Napervillians who no longer attend Rib Fest because the crowds are too big and they don’t want to trek over there only to be turned away. I asked one of the Rib Fest organizers if they would consider selling tickets for particular days instead of one ticket good for the entire weekend to help alleviate this problem and I was told that the fest is full all weekend long so they don’t care if people get turned away. It’s all about money.

As for Last Fling, Rotary Hill used to be free all weekend long. About five or six years ago when the BoDeans came to play they sold tickets for Sunday only. Now the hill is a ticket-only event every day except Monday. Again, more money.

So if the insurance companies have billions of dollars, then the fest coverage is also billions of dollars? That’s patently false. By the same reasoning, is your homeowner’s or auto coverage billions of dollars? No, the coverage is limited by your policy. If you don’t think some attorney would find a way to try and dig into the deep pockets of the city then you’re living in dreamland.

Please explain what’s hypocritical about disagreeing with you? It is a simple difference of opinion. Disagreeing with you does not mean that my opinions are “ludicrous and ridiculous”. Not everyone will agree with you. Come to grips with that and stop the insults.

T.B.

P.S. I completely agree with SWNT's post last night at 10:26 PM. Well said.

Here is a calculation for Joe wrote:

"I could be wrong but here is where I think where you have gone wrong.

You are suppose to take $1415 and DIVIDE(not multiply) by .16 and multiply it by .008."

Actually, I think you are BOTH wrong. You neither multiply, nor divide the city portion of your property taxes by .16 It doesn't matter that property taxes are 16% of the city's income pie. To figure out what portion of the city portion of your property taxes goes to police overtime you multiply the entire amount by the percentage of the total city budget that is spent on overtime (.8%, according to Joe). In Joe's case, this would be:

$1415 * .008 = $11.32

This is hardly a complete picture of Joe's police OT tax burden, though. On the one hand, it does not take into account the utility taxes, sales taxes, etc. that Joe pays to the city, .8% of which also goes to pay for NPD OT. On the other hand, it does not take into account the OT that is reimbursed to the city. And, of course, commercial and industrial properties and businesses in Naperville also contribute substantially to the city's coffers through the various taxes and fees.

So I think it is safe to say that the average Naperville home owner's share of the police overtime costs is substantially more than Joe's $2 figure, but substantially less than the Napergatian's $70.

Bloggers,

Let me see if I can try to make this simple and get rid of some confusion.

The bottom line is this police OT is costing the City of Naperville which is owned by its residents $3,150,000.

If we assume we have 45,000 households it is costing each homeowner $70.

Residents and businesses are financing $504,000 of this OT directly from the tax assessed on their homes through the property real estate tax bill.

The other part of the OT, or 84% amounting to $2,646,000 is also being financed by the residents and businesses in town. Mostly by residential homeowners since there are probably 25-50 homes for each one business.

What everyone seems to be grasping except for the minority, is that we are also paying for this $2,646,000 in OT through many different kinds of taxes including sales tax, electric tax, water tax, telephone tax, cable tax, impact fees tax, home sales transfer and stamp taxes, and many others etc.

Most sales tax in Naperville is paid by Napervillians. Some people from Aurora come to downtown Naperville and spend some money that raises some sales tax for us. But many more Napervillians spend more money in the Fox Valley Mall that supports Aurora. The net effect is probably negative for Naperville. It is improper to say much of our sales tax is coming from out of towners when the net effect on us is probably a negative mostly because of the Fox Valley Mall. For the newcomes in town, losing that mall to Aurora decades ago was a real and devastating blow to the Naperville Sales Tax Base.

Most of the other businesses we have in town can be found in surrounding suburbs. Most people shop at the Jewel in their town. They don't come to the Jewel in our town to help us with our sales tax. Woodridge Residents go to the Wal-Mart in their town. They don't come to our Wal-Mart and we don't go to theirs with of course exceptions.

The bottom line is the 45-52,000 homes in Naperville and the 1000-2000 businesses in Naperville are paying for this police OVERTIME.

In the worse case scenario of 45k homes and only 1k businesses, it is costing each household and business an AVERAGE of $68.48 cents.

In the best case scenario of 52k homes and 2k businesses, it is COSTING each household and business an AVERAGE of $58.33 cents.

This is the true COST to each one of us. The revenue is coming from many sources of taxes imposed on residents and businesses, and altogether we are taxed $3.15 million to pay for $3.15 million in police OT.

No one from outside of Naperville is donating the money that is not coming from our real estate tax bills. It is still coming from us in the form of different kinds of taxation.

Is Joe's number of .96 right? Absolutely not!

From property taxes assessed we are paying from $9.33 to $10.96 on AVERAGE to support this $3.15 million in police OT.

From other taxes assessed on us we are paying from $49.00 to $57.52 on AVERAGE to support this $3.15 million in police OT.

The bottom line is the entire revenue to support this 3.15 million of Police Overtime COST is the responsibility of the taxpayers, coming from taxpayers and being paid by taxpayers. No one is paying it for us. We Napervillians are paying for it!

Even this 100,000 OT given to the Last Fling and Rib Fest is coming from a 1% tax imposed on us through a cultural fund. So we are even paying for that part of the OT instead of the charities. It is very disturbing to me that the Charities are not allowed to retain sworn police officers willing to work for $15 to $25 dollars from other towns instead of charging the charities up to $75 dollars for Senior Officer police OT of our hard earned cultural tax money.

As many others, I see something very wrong with this laundered money that is being used for Police OT at the Charities that we taxpayers are paying for against our will. Besides it is unethical to take money collected for cultural uses through a special 1% sales tax and donate it to charity against the will of the taxpayer. That is a very deceptive practice and needs to be investigated by the City Council as soon as possible! And when it ends up being used for AVOIDABLE police OT to enrich NPD officers at the expense of taxpayers, it is like pouring salt in a wound.

Of course I support the Napergatian positions and while the Napergate Calculator may be off a few pennies here and there, it is much more accurate than the City Calulator which is rigged towards corruption and cronyism especially as we can see in those CHARITY FESTIVALS.

Adam-

My argument is really very simple in that I feel the NPD and NFD would do the best job protecting the fests. If the fests turn to private security, there is no guarantee that off-duty cops would be hired instead of some aged, incompetent, and under-trained “mall cop”. Why would the fests hire off-duty cops at your $15-25 rate when they could hire the equivalent of bar bouncers for less? There are some things you can do cheaply; I just don’t believe safety is one of them.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

T.B.,

I think you are underestimating the ability of the City of Naperville to make sure its procedures are enforced. Also, you are discounting the fact the the Last Fling and Rib Fest are run by very credible organizations over dozens of years. These people are honest and will do what the City asks of them...they will not circumvent rules and regulations!

If the city demands that the Rib Fest and Last Fling hire off duty sworn police officers, be assured they will. They are not going to disobey and blow their credibility of decades over trying to save $65 dollars instead of only $60 dollars by hiring your mall "incompetent" $10 security guards. I am not sure I agree with you because many mall security guards are EXCELLENT but I will agree for argument's sake!

If the Charity Festivals have been willing or forced to pay $75 dollars in OT for a senior level Naperville Police Officer, they will be happy to pay 15 dollars for an off duty sworn police officer instead of 10 dollars for an unqualified security guard.

Why are you denying these charities the right to hire sworn police officers at competitive rates? What evidence do you have that a Lisle, Warrenville or Winfied cop is not as good as a Naperville Cop. They are all excellent and attend the same excellent Illinois Police Academies.

Your hypotheticals are ridiculous. Most likely nothing is going to go wrong. Some Naperville Police Officers are overweight. We may get a Winfield cop that I work out with at Life Time Fitness in Warrenville who is in excellent shape and mentioned he loves to pick up extra money even at $15 dollar per hour in a nice festival atmosphere. He mentioned he does not get paid for watching TV at home and could always use a few extra bucks for the kids' clothes and school needs.

I could see why the Napergatians are upset with you T.B. They are trying to push an agenda of saving taxpayers money and you are promoting paying police officers $75 dollars instead of $15 dollars from the 1% cultural fund BELONGING to the taxpayers/residents!

If you needed security for a private funtion that you were sponsoring out of your own PERSONAL MONEY would you hire my Winfield Cop friend for $15 bucks or pay $75 dollars for a possibly overweight or even in shape Naperville Police Officer? Try to give a straight answer to my question, T.B., because if you go around in circles you will continue losing respect amongst your fellow bloggers!

My Winfield Cop friend is about 6'3", weighs about 225 pounds, is very muscular, and is as polite and gentle as they come unless someone breaks the law. He is also a Sergeant with experience and not a rookie cop!

Why can't we consider him as someone qualified to work the Last Fling at 80% of the savings! Do tell T.B. without going around in circles and giving one in a billion hypotheticals. Those one in a billion hypotheticals slice both ways! I am sure you know that!

Why not discuss reality and practicality for a change? Bloggers including Napergatians would respect you much more!

Joe, you are the man... The city needs only one supporter to blow away the herd of sheep that attack AKA the Napergate cult. Joe, the NGC should stick with what their good at which mainly consist of lying.

Im still waiting for the 500 plus napergate cult members to storm city hall, haaaaa.

bahhh bahhhh

Even if we need some sworn police officers at Ribfest and Last Fling that does not mean every single one of them must be a sworn officer.

Large events are held all over the Cicago metro area year round staffed with private security. Just think of all the football games, baseball games, basketball games, music concerts, etc. that you have attended over the years. Yes, these events have some sworn police officers, but the vast majority are private security.

If the private security can not handle certain people they turn them over to the police and they either get ejected or arrested. Do we read about problems with private security at these other mega events? No! The private security works just fine at all of these other events. And you know what, the vast majority of these are not charity events either. They are put on by profit making sports teams, musicians, etc. They know how to make money and they are not going to allow their profit get squandered on salaries they do not need.

100% staffing by sworn police officers who are all Naperville Police officers working OT is simply not necessary and nothing more than another example of a sweetheart deal allowed by our retired policeman Mayor looking out for his old department cronies.

Enough is enough of the back room wink and nod letting this kind of government corruption exist and go on year after year. Where is the honor and ethics in our city council? Where is their shame? This money should be going to charity!

Your last post was great Anonymous. I had to read it twice and loved it.

I know you are not a Napergatian but you are beginning to sound just like the Napergate Man and the rest of us Napergatians.

You are really awesome! Keep up the great work!

You are really catching on at fabulous speeds.

One of the trademarks of Napergatians is posting a first name as we were directed through our extensive e-mail network.

That is how I know you are not a Napergatian yet. Hopefully, you will be with us at the election polls of 2009 to help fix City Hall!

Blogger Kevin joined us. I hope you start bloggin with a first name and become a Napergatian. We would be honored to have you join our Napergatian Movement!

John Q.

Just multiplying by .008 is what I originally did, but it is wrong. Here is why:

For every $1 in police overtime spent, only $0.16 comes from property taxes. (Property taxes are 16% of the funding for the city general fund). You have to account for that.

Just multiplying by .008 (the percentage of the whole budget the line item is) assumes that property taxes fund 100% of the city general fund.. which we know as a fact it does not... it funds 16%, no more, no less.

Adam-

So if the insurance companies have billions of dollars, then the fest coverage is also billions of dollars? That’s patently false. By the same reasoning, is your homeowner’s or auto coverage billions of dollars? No, the coverage is limited by your policy. If you don’t think some attorney would find a way to try and dig into the deep pockets of the city then you’re living in dreamland.

___________________________________________________________________

T.B.,

As many others, I am beginning to doubt you have an MBA. Your above statement is ludicrous.

Insurance companies do have billions of dollars. That is not patently false. If they sell you a policy of coverage for $20,000,000 of liability for $5,000 to $10,000, they will cover you to the tune of $20,000,000, in the event something goes wrong. Since they have billions what Adam was trying to say, is they can not escape liability.

If the City of Naperville feels nervous, they can force the Festival to buy liability insurace to the tune of $50,000,0000 for possibly $12,500 to $25,000 for a 3 day festival.

They are probably already required to buy this insurance so the City is not liable regardless of whether Naperville Cops are used or out of town cops are used. The Festivals who are backed by huge insurace coverage that may even include second umbrella policies are the one exclusively liable...not the City of Naperville!

We have never had a serious incident in these Festivals to the best of my knowledge. What is the odds that we will have one that will cost us over $50,000,000 dollars. I would say zero to zilch. In the one in trillion chance someone had a successful suit for being punched that exceeded $50 million, the taxpayers would be responsible for the excess if the victim succeeded in court with a judgement of say $51,000,000...highly doubtful!

Liability and also property insurance for a $20,000,000 million shopping center for a FULL YEAR only costs about $20,000 dollars per year and it has more visitors than the Last Fling over a years time. I am sure insurance for a 3 or 4 day peaceful charity event with no record of serious violence will be very CHEAP! Possibly a few thousand dollar at most from a relative perspective to a plaza.
Remember we are only talking about insurance for 3 days. The Plaza insurance is for a full year and includes a tornado demolishing it. We have no property at the Rib Fest except for some speakers and 20 make shift wooden tables to speak of.

Saving $80,000 of that $100,000 in Police OT could buy tons of addtional insurane to eliminate your one in a billion hypotheticals and leave much more money for those in need instead of giving it to Police Officers who are very well paid with huge pensions when they retire. Naperville Police Officers are trully not in the category of need that the Charities were meant to help and provide for.

It almost seems like the NPD is "robbing" the rightful funds of the poor who these charities were meant to help out!

Let's us get real T.B. and stop arguing for the sake of arguing. As many said these blogs are serious avenues of discussion created by Host Ted and Moderator Jim.

They have done a great service for the community.

What you and your group of 5 are doing is abusing these blogs sites for personal attention and your 15 minutes of fame. It really is almost sickening what you guys have done to these blog sites. You chase bloggers from thread to thread to argue for the sake of argument. You take the opposite viewpoint just to get a rise or high when it makes no sense.

Let us use Jim's Blogs and Ted's Threads to help the City of Naperville get its act together. The City of Naperville needs a good reality check. It has not had one since the Napergate Man retired. They have been functioning unchecked for 7 years and finally need to be held accountable.

I personally feel the Moderator and Host understand where the Napergatians are coming from. I feel this blog site is their first little step to bring accountability to government.

I am sure Host Ted and Moderator Jim read or reviewed some of those old Napergate ads that are in their print archives. I am sure they learned something from them.

I have little doubt that the print edition of the Naperville Sun is going to join this Blog Site and hold City Officials accountable.

I have no doubt that City Officials know what damage the Host and Moderator can bring to the City of Naperville if they release the Napergatians to do their thing in the print edition.

My feeling is the Naperville Sun is giving City Officials a final chance to smell the coffee before they tighten the screws on them.

I see what is happening and I commend Host Ted and Moderator Jim for all they have done so far. They are walking a tight rope in unchartered waters since the Naperville Sun has never done any Watch Dog duties before.

I believe the new Naperville Sun is on the horizon and we will see a new paper that will replace those Napergate ads and bring us in the future instead of dwelling on the past.

Lets see...who else thought nothing would happen to them...

* Columbine
* Virginia Tech
* NIU
* People in the Twin Towers
* All those who choose to drive drunk (I'm sure there are none of them at RibFest!)

Come on...If you do realize by your age at this date & time that anything and happen, anywhere to anyone that says a great deal of your logic! What decade are you from? And you would be the first one to later complain when something happens why the city did not do enough to prevent or as many consequences as it did.

Who is trying to get their 15 min & trying to get a rise...not you! Right!

"For every $1 in police overtime spent, only $0.16 comes from property taxes. (Property taxes are 16% of the funding for the city general fund). You have to account for that"

Joe, look at it this way: out of every $1 the city spends, $.008 (eight tenths of a cent) goes to police OT. The city spends 100% of the property tax you pay (presumably), so to find out how much goes to police OT, you multiply that total amount by .008.

Is Esmail reading or even posting in here trying to 'test the waters' on certain topics like police overtime as sticky-issues for the next election?

Any of the napergatians know?

Realtor Ryan, I to can tell who is a napergatian. You are all easily identifiable by your lack of facts and your efforts to keep people quiet by name calling and belittlement.

Your posts with fantasy numbers that purports to show how all Naperville residents pay all taxes either directly through property taxes or indirectly through sales taxes is a classic example. Going by your statements, all the people that stay in the hotels in Naperville must be residents. All that shop at the Sam's Club, Cosco, Lowes, etc. only come from Naperville. Everyone that populates the downtown are is a Naperville resident. All the advertising Naperville does on powerhouse radio stations must be a waste of time. Your theory is as preposterous as your numbers. I'm sure all the cult members will line up to pat you on the back as your lack of anything factual to back you up is a hallmark of your group.

You call worries about liability ridiculous, yet attempt to argue against well thought out points with the ridiculous accusation of out of shape Naperville cops and a friend that is willing to work for almost nothing. Did he say if he expected cash at that ridiculous rate, or is he willing to declare that money?

One of your Anonomouse friends made the ridiculous statement that places all over Chicagoland use private security, using basketball and football games as example. What he failed to mention is that those places are privately owned or leased, not open air events on publicly owned property as the Naperville events are. When the lawyers get involved in a potential lawsuit, they will go after the city of Naperville as the sponsors of the event, not just the insurance company underwriting the liability policy.

It is funny that a Realtor is trying to act like he is truthful and factual. It reminds me of the realtors that showed houses around the stone quarries in Naperville on weekends and told the prospective buyers that the quarries were all going to be shut down. In other words, I'd need strong factual information before I would believe a realtor.

Anonymour,
There's plenty of non-police security at Ribfest, and Last Fling. You are uninformed.

Realtor Ryan,
Please re-read Anonymous' post for a third time. I agree with you that he has caught on to the Napergatian's mode of operation. He has made false and misleading statements while impying they are true. Then he has desparaged people by professing unsubstantiated conspiracy theories based on his baseless assertians. My responses are capitalized below:

By Anonymous on May 2, 2008 1:19 PM

"Even if we need some sworn police officers at Ribfest and Last Fling that does not mean every single one of them must be a sworn officer." I AGREE, AND THE IMPLICATION IT IS INDEED THE CASE IS FALSE.

Anonymous later stated "100% staffing by sworn police officers who are all Naperville Police officers working OT is simply not necessary and nothing more than another example of a sweetheart deal allowed by our retired policeman Mayor looking out for his old department cronies." AGAIN, HE IMPLIES THIS IS THE CASE, BUT IT IS NOT TRUE. NOT ONLY ARE THE IMPLICATIONS FALSE, IT IS A BLATANT ATTEMPT TO FALSELY DISPARAGE THE POLICE, AND OUR MAYOR.

Why do so many of you Napergations posting on these blogs continually try to deceive, and mislead people by making false or unsubstatiated assertiions and accusations in an attempt to undermine the truth, and advance your political agenda?

Whatever credibility you might have had before you started expressing yourselves on these blogs, you have clearly lost it.

John, I'm sorry you don't understand how to do fractional equivalence either.

"Joe, look at it this way: out of every $1 the city spends, $.008 (eight tenths of a cent) goes to police OT. The city spends 100% of the property tax you pay (presumably), so to find out how much goes to police OT, you multiply that total amount by .008."

Again, you are missing the step of normalizing the property tax to the city fund percentage (.16). Otherwise, you are saying with your math that property taxes fund the city of Naperville 100%.

By Ken on May 2, 2008 5:18 PM "It is funny that a Realtor is trying to act like he is truthful and factual. It reminds me of the realtors that showed houses around the stone quarries in Naperville on weekends and told the prospective buyers that the quarries were all going to be shut down. In other words, I'd need strong factual information before I would believe a realtor"

Ken, there is no need to insult an entire profession because of a bad experience you must have had in the past with a Realtor. I am just assuming you did since you don't speak very highly of Realtors here or in other threads, if that is not the case than I apologize for assuming it is. Not everyone who is a Realtor is a liar or a bad person, much like any profession there is a small number of people who can ruin reputations for an entire profession. There are many more good and honest Realtors out there than the bad ones...I would like to think that I am one of them. I am always conducted my business being both honest and fair with my clients. If you want references, I can give them to you offline to prove that fact.

I have also always been fair and honest on these blogs. So I would appreciate it if you did not attack a profession as a whole as that is not fair to those of us who don't fall into that category. I, unlike other people, don't have a problem with your entries on the various blogs...you make good points and then you make points that I don't agree with...but I still treat you with respect and I don't take personal shots at you or anyone else...I think you can say that is true statement, correct? I understand that you are entitled to your opinion, just like everyone else is. I have always said on the various threads that I think it is good to have a fair debate on the facts and opinions being raised and I like to hear opposing views as it makes me think even harder about the discussion at hand and where I stand on it. Sometimes I think we have to agree to disagree and move on...not enough of that goes on here.

Dear Bloggers,

I use to blog much more frequently. I almost stopped completely because of Joe.

Has anyone noticed this guy does not know his head from his tail and yet he is trying to compute how Police OT costs are derived from his real estate tax bill.

Everytime I read this blog site he has a new number. You would think the guy would take a moment off from blogging, ask a neighbor for help or call the Dupage Assessor's office.

No he would rather blog to get a rise and he does not even care if he makes a fool of himself.

I read this entire blog and the only one who makes sense is Realtor Ryan. Here is his anaylsis.

===================================================================

By Realtor Ryan on May 2, 2008 11:54 AM
Bloggers,

The bottom line is the 45-52,000 homes in Naperville and the 1000-2000 businesses in Naperville are paying for this police OVERTIME.

In the worse case scenario of 45k homes and only 1k businesses, it is costing each household and business an AVERAGE of $68.48 cents.

In the best case scenario of 52k homes and 2k businesses, it is COSTING each household and business an AVERAGE of $58.33 cents.

This is the true COST to each one of us. The revenue is coming from many sources of taxes imposed on residents and businesses, and altogether we are taxed $3.15 million to pay for $3.15 million in police OT.

====================================================================

What is it that the 5 City Supportes don't understand about the Napergatian Calculator. It is very accurate and Realtor Ryan gave us the high and low range based on houses and busineeses in town.

What more do you city guys want?

It is our money subsidizing this police OT no matter what tax it comes from imposed on us.

The bottom line is I agree 100% with Realtor Ryan that it is somewhere between $58.33 to $68.48 per the average household/business in the City of Naperville. He spells it our clearly and documents it.

Joe's number of .96 cents is so laughable, I am a little surprised Mr. John Q. Public is wasting his time arguing with Joe.

Mow your lawn, Mr. Public! Enjoy your kids! This Joe guy will drive you nuts!

PS. I forgot to put my name on my first post, so could you please delete that one and put this one up. I don't want to clutter the thread with too many Anonymous names as that really gets confusing and annoying. Thanks Host or Moderator!

Kevin, you are absolutely right. I was wrong to disparage a whole profession just because of people like Ryan. You are also right that I have met more dishonest Realtors than honest ones, but that does not mean there is not a majority of honest Realtors out there. You are honest in debating here, so I have no problem believing you are honest in your business. Sorry to have inadvertently included you with the dishonest side of your profession.

"Again, you are missing the step of normalizing the property tax to the city fund percentage (.16)."

No, Joe, you are the one who is in error here. You are confusing your debits with your credits. For purposes of calculating what percentage of the money that YOU pay goes to fund police OT it DOESN'T matter what percentage of the city's budget comes from property taxes. All that matters is how the city allocates the money that you pay. Eight tenths of one percent of EVERY dollar the city takes into it's general fund, no matter what the source, is spent on police OT.

"Otherwise, you are saying with your math that property taxes fund the city of Naperville 100%."

No, I am saying that property taxes comprise 100% of the city's property tax revenue. By multiplying your figure by .16, you are saying that property taxes only comprise 16% of the city's property tax revenue.

Kevin and Ken,

I agree we should not be attacking the Real Estate Professionals. All my experiences with realtors have been very good. All were very honest.

They are regulated just like Police Officers. If they lie, they can be sued. Most seem to be not only credible but very credible!

As far as Realtor Ryan can either of you point out where he is misleading us or lying to us. Looking at my real estate bill that I just got, his numbers look right on. Something is wrong with Naperville when we are over 13% and the average is below 10%. It is in black and white.

I think he is being very honest and used all the high and low numbers being provided by bloggers and gave us the range.

He assumes as many Napervillians spend money outside of Naperville as out of towners spent money in Naperville.

Most of us take vacations out of Naperville and pay for hotels rooms out of the City. I bet more than comes into the City in our few hotels for what I also believe is a net negative sales tax and hotel tax effect.

The Riverwalk is not Niagara Falls. It is not the Grand Canyon. It is not the Great Wall. It is a local attraction that is beautiful that attracts local residents mostly Napervillian.

How many hotels do we have in downtown Naperville! A big 0! That should tell you how many out of staters come to visit the Riverwalk annually. Let us be realistic and not think we are Holloywood!

Realtor Ryan was just saying we probably spend more money at the Fox Valley Mall and Best Buy than Aurorans spend in downtown Naperville for a net negative effect on our sales tax. Aurorans also have their own downtown, their own restaurants, their River Walk and their Casinos. Their downtown is closer for them and they are more likely to go there.

Realtor Ryan was simply saying we Napervillians for the most part pay for this 3.15 million in Police OT. I believe he is right. Yes, some dollars come from out of towners but less than we Napervillians spend out of town during our vacations and in the Fox Valley and Oak Brook Malls.

And of course the Napergate Calculator is more accurate than Joe's broken one...maybe his caluclator has a weak battery or needs some sunshine to operate properly but at this moment it is impaired.

Realtor Ryan,

Thanks for all your insightful and enlightening posts.

You sure ask a lot of good questions. I hope the Naperville Sun can bring us some answers.

I to do not feel comfortable with the police officers running my city and creating a police state. Let us face it they are all buddy buddy from the old establishment boy's club.

Who is going to watch out for those 3? Who is going to rat who out if they see an impropriety amongst themselves? Who is going to be the whistle blower?

With no Napergate Ads and the Naperville Sun refusing to do serious investigative reporting, the residents will be at the mercy of the police officers in what amounts to a CITY POLICE STATE!

What controls do we have? None!

The money designated for Charity going to our police in 75 dollar OT pay makes me very sick. People are hungry and the police department is getting rich on the backs of the needy....how very shameful!

Good God...how hard is it to just call up the city & find out an exact amount for each of you individually, rather than chance doing your own math without understanding exactly how it is done & from what other sources may bring your amount lower. Then you can also ask, what is the highest, lowest paid.

Then as you know Averages are effected extremely by highs & lows & it appears in Naperville you do have this, as some were pointing out with 4M at one extreme (perhaps more!) and others talking about very low areas that are not policed (in your opinion) and can barely afford to live. You could look at what is the the median, the 50% point is better. Or the mode...what payment occurs most often for your community might be good to look at also.

I still think there are two major flaws going on here...

1. Are people just arguing they do not want any overtime? Which does not make sense since many careers have overtime.

2. If you are just upset with OT for particulars, like one making 45K in overtime, then to generalize & talk about it totally or just some areas without knowing where this particular OT is being made is not logical. Find out where he/she is and how he/she even earned this OT. It may not be anyone on Chicago Ave so you are just blowing up about it in the wrong context. That can be a total different conversation if you are upset about it, but then would not be appropriate if none of them are the ones making all this OT. All these specific instances of where you do not think you are getting the value you should (even if not OT) should be taken care of in a different place. It doesn't help your argument here & will not be addressed seriously because it is being linked with the OT & may be dismissed because it has nothing to do with it. Find out, if you can, where the OT is specific. I'm sure that is what they will be doing now if they are going to try to reduce it.

And quite frankly...what difference would it be if now the one making 45K is not allowed to make so much. Now you can have 2 making 22.5K or 4 making....so is it just the idea of one person making that much? You still may not help the situation if the work does need to be done so many others do it. You still spend the same amount to get the job done. Now looking for abuse...sure you always should for anything, but sometimes it is just needed. And some years more than others.

You know if you really start thinking about other factors...I really don't think the officers are so differently immuned from the nasty cold/flus that are affecting so many schools & businesses this winter. There were classrooms with so few students in them for a while. I had a student who worked in Chicago & last month they had 6 co-workers just in her small office out...leaving 2 to do the job & for nearly 2 weeks. So if they offer OT, guess who is making more this year? I would think many officers had to cover for others. Is this all the way up to a 45K...no I'm not suggesting that, but what I'm saying is until you go & analyze & look at the details you can't just make generalized statements. There may be many factors which up this amount this year. And perhaps this officer made even more than 45K last year but it was others who increased also & that made the total number higher & when they looked they just saw the one at 45K. Could be many possibilities!

And do you really want to see each officer & how they made it? Listen, I have sooo many better things to do with my time! Yes, there should be someone there looking at it but sometimes 'it is what it is'. Good God, lets have someone working more on seeing why these Gas prices are what they are. Talk about a place, if any, there could be something abusive going on!

By Howard on May 3, 2008 12:50 PM. "As far as Realtor Ryan can either of you point out where he is misleading us or lying to us. Looking at my real estate bill that I just got, his numbers look right on. Something is wrong with Naperville when we are over 13% and the average is below 10%. It is in black and white".

Howard, I never said Realtor Ryan was misleading or lying to anyone...actually I never mentioned Realtor Ryan by name in my last entry, I was just defending Realtors in general as I am one of them. You supported my point very well in the first part of your entry and I appreciate it. I have no issues with Realtor Ryan, he makes some good points in his various entries. My point was simply defending Realtors and not type casting the whole profession after a bad experience with one or two of them which it looked like Ken had. Please re-read my post again and let me know if you have any questions. Thanks!

Ken, I appreciate you understanding that not all Realtors are the same and that the majority are probably fair and honest. However, I would not agree that Realtor Ryan is not an honest or fair Realtor...he seems to be a good person from what I have read on these threads. I just think you guys need to agree to disagree and move on.

how is it that in a city of somewhere around 150,000 people there are only about 5 people who even come close to defending what the city of naperville has done with police ot?

how is it when we look out across all the 35 plus square miles of naperville... block after block, street after street, all adding up to about 50,000 housing units that the residents of each and every housing unit are contributing towards more than one hour of police overtime each and every year?

why is it that public safety personnel who must work at community events can not be scheduled to work as a regular shift and then be given compensatory time off staggered throughout the year?

how can it be that in a city like naperville our city council members exhibit such low personal ethics that they could take money collected under the premise of culture and spend it on police ot?

how is it in a city like naperville that our city council would launder money through a community organization from a special tax back into the general fund?

how is it that the hundreds of city of naperville employees, especially those who also live in naperville, are not out in full force volunteering their time and talent at this community event?

how is it that city of naperville employees are given free passes and do not pay admission to ribfest like the rest of us?

Just as you guys hounded a poster for generalizing all realtors...you should not generalize all officers & that is all I've been hearing on the two threads for this topic!

And "Good Old Boys Club"...where is that unique in any area...politics, business, even education! No, I'm not saying it is ok but don't say all are like that. Are there some like that...sure, you're not telling anyone anything new, and it may have a bit to do with OT but it may not. Why say what it is when you don't know. Why not just come up with solutions rather than complaining? Both these threads are just people whining rather than brainstorming on what to do. It is the people with great ideas & who take action who make the difference.

What do you want done? You can't just say get rid of OT...first, it isn't going to happen as other occupations have OT also. I don't think for the majority OT alone is the problem. I think some are concerned with what is PERCEIVED as a high amount...so then what do you think should happen? Should there be a report or double check signatures or what for those who are going over a certain amount that "suggest excessive"? I'm not sure that is even workable but this is an idea. What can be done to just make sure it is needed and if so then is it something that is unique that year or if continues does make sense to increase the staff or find other means of money to support it. Get them to make a calendar! ;-) And why argue on numbers? Someone has to be wrong and it can be just from a unintentional misunderstanding. Like none of you have ever been wrong on something. Why bash people even if they may be wrong. Just say, I called the city &....Don't argue about it just find out. You waste time going back & forth. Contact the city & find out. How hard is that.

Just because one is a "public servant" does not mean they should be having to take on a 2nd job as some of you suggest. Unlike other countries the occupations which make such a difference in our society are least valued...in attitude & financially. And it is all relative to the context you place it in. You complain that Naperville officers get soooo much & compare them to other economically hurting cities. I'm sure there are other cities in our country where the officers are making even more & NPD would then be low in comparison. Is Naperville a richer community...YES, thus it makes sense their officers would make more than other communities. It is no different than teachers. Some areas the teachers are paid very well & others are not, but you don't compare those trust me. It isn't like Chicago teachers can say Naperville teachers are making this so we want to make the same. Well then you can't say Chicago officers make this so Naperville should not make so much. It is as someone else posted apples to oranges.

Take pride in paying your officers well. It is something to boast about your community. You do not want to be known for being a wealthy community & not paying your officers well. If you see individual instances of abuse or unethical behavior then take care of it like anyone should, but don't trash all the officers because of the few who are problematic. And to even think your community would be immune of having anyone unethical...OMG! Get real. I would hope your officers are not & that they can take pride that they have a very small percentage who are at some time in their life unethical, but they are human like everyone else! And quite frankly, what do they say about throwing stones? Everyone one of you who are complaining...you never did anything illegal/unethical/questionable? Tell the truth...do not cheat a bit on taxes, who is being dishonest in relationships, didn't keep too much change returned to you, never speed, never say anything unkind, always open doors for people (for those who complained officers did this!)....just be careful who you are judging....you may be judged very soon yourself. I'm not saying it is ok just because you may be not ethical either but don't generalize. Would you like someone judging you without first finding out? Would you like everyone generalizing about you based on others in your profession or live where you do etc.

As for someone who posted about out-of-towners or staters coming to the riverwalk I can tell you I know many do. Don't go to the other extremem of the China Wall etc. Try somewhere in the middle! You are also not some hick town. Lets face it DuPage, Will & McHenry Counties are in the top 20 of riches counties with over 250,000 in population! I do not live in Naperville, I have family who do but I do frequent the riverwalk. We have family & friends from out of state that frequent the riverwalk. I've met many people who are from other countries even & have a lovely conversation with them on a bench by the water fountain. Again, before you say, find out! It is easy...just have a drop box or something that people can fill out a card or you can have a sign-in book or something located somewhere. Heck, if you got addresses like some areas do you can send post cards out when your community is having other events & you draw more people...oh no...you'll need another parking lot...more OT! It is always a catch twenty two & people never like it either way. You draw people in from afar which helps businesses but then yes you have to pay for that increase in road useage, police, etc. You can't have it both ways.

To "One Who Values You!",

You think you are pointing out flaws with others arguments, well consider this flaw in your argument if you want to talk about averages:

Every single sworn police officer in Naperville is working an average of 6 hours of overtime every single week of the year for the police OT budget to run up to $3.3 million dollars.

196 officers X 6 hours per week X 52 weeks per year X $54.00 per hour = $3.3MM

Sure some work more, some work less. The average paints the true picture. I for one am shocked to read that every single police officer is literally working a 6 day work week every single week of the year. And this is going on year after year.

The amount of money all this overtime is costing the city is not healthy. The stress from working this much overtime is not healthy for these officers either.

The bottom line is that the police commander and the police chief know full well what is going on and are doing nothing to better manage the police force, the staffing levels, or the overtime budget. This means that what is going on is happening with their full consent and knowledge. They must sign and approve every hour on their payroll!

The city council is in bed with the devil on this one and needs to act fast to clean up this mess. Laundering money from one city account to another should not happen. Giving money to a community organization to then bill it back does not make any good accounting sense. Asking the police chief to reduce police OT by 5% when they could have accomplished the same thing with a simple accounting transaction is a sham and does not make any sense.

How about instead the city council goes after some real tangible police OT reduction? How about the city council says to the police chief: "Hey, you are racking up over 61,000 hours of OT every year. That is equivalent to the work hours of nearly another 30 full time sworn police officers. You have a choice. Reduce the total police OT by 1/3 this year or we will get a police chief who can manage the police department budget. Your goal is to get the police OT budget down to $2.2MM this year. We want to save the taxpayers of Naperville $1.1MM. This is your goal. Get moving. We are expecting you to deliver us some results".

Well, perhaps you are the only 5 who feel the way you do...take it as a hint. Ok, I'll give it to you that probably there are a few others but maybe that should tell you something. There is always a minority so...

Ok, you don't want OT but then you don't want them to have a free pass as a thank you for all they do all. Sure volunteer but don't say thank you in such a small way. Gee...how much is it for Ribfest, I'll donate for one officer to go free...I'm sure there could be others! Geez!

And again why complain? You know it really only takes 1! If you think someone is doing something unethical get your evidence & present it to who needs it. Go ahead expose them. If you don't have the evidence you don't have anything to complain about.

Do you KNOW that none of the officers are scheduled for ribfest on regular time? I don't know...but do you know for a fact. Where are our officers...chirp in here!

How much are each & every resident contributing to Global Warming on a daily basis? They are doing so much more damage with waste etc than this! How many are contributing to the crime that demands the police OT. GREAT WAY to get rid of the police OT...come up with ways to get the community to act in socially appropriate ways. You know in a way...think about it...those communities with the most OT...sad...that means they are not being good boys & girls! I mean if you were you wouldn't need the OT right. Why aren't people whining about why Naperville residents can't behave better. Yes, there are some coming to Naperville or moving through Naperville and acting bad but someone said 'hey, lets face it it is just local residents' so then hey get your act together people! Get on everyone! And some of you have been complaining about areas that are not being dealt with, so heck you are really saying your residents behavior is even worse than what the officers are dealing with now. Get passionate about that! Find out from the police what is the break down in types of crimes they deal with. Work on those areas you can. Maybe you can put the money into programs for teens..heck even the lower areas helps reduce & then they are available for the other more severe areas.

Gee...I wonder how many officers taking a 2nd job it would take to help out Grayslake with 40K+ bikers so they would not have to have their event canceled? :-) How many tasers would it take? NO! I am not saying all the bikers would be a problem...not at all I know some lovely bikers ;-) & would trust them before some others who one would think would be good. Just making a point.

Kevin, all you have to do to find doubt in what Ryan says is his statement that all sales taxes come from Naperville residents because taxes from non-citizens are equalized by what citizens spend elsewhere. Sounds good in a metaphysical sense, but does not reflect reality.

Howard, it does not matter how many hotels are in downtown Naperville. What matters are the many hotels on along I88 that bring in lots of people who frequent the downtown area, not to mention all the taxes paid to the city.

None of you seem to want to believe the facts presented by Joe directly from the city's budget numbers of how little the residential real estate taxes pay for. All of you want to gloss over the fact that the Sun article pointed out that much of the overtime was paid back to the city, just not put back into the police budget.

Anonymouse 5:58pm, how often do you volunteer to do your job for free? Why do you and others expect the city to dictate that a city employee must do so? What and when a person donates to charity is their own business, not their employer's. Being a called a public servant does not mean anyone should be expected to work for free at the public's discrestion.

Some of you seem to be hung up on the fact that some officers doubled their incomes with overtime. While you say that shouldn't happen, I'm sure the police department has to abide by the union contract. Overtime is usually contractually offered by seniority, and all the whining in the world is not going change this. Therefore, a senior officer is going to get offered the most overtime, and if he choses to take it, make a lot of extra money. That is just one of the joy's of dealing with a union, and unlike other union jobs, the 24/7/365 nature of police work brings in a lot of unavoidable overtime.

Ernie, your post is not being published because you violated the rule about introducing Napergate on a thread that has nothing to do with Napergate.

Almost everyone agrees that a police presence at Naperville events is desirable, the question is what is the best way to affect this?

Has anyone argued that the City should fund the OT by donating culture funds which come right back to the City?

As to the argument that a nut or gang bangers might cause a severe problem at one of these events, I see no problem with everyone entering the grounds passing through a metal detector, being subject to search and having their image recorded on a video recorder. This would add minimal delay to entering the grounds and promote safety which should be everyone's first concern.

If the City wants to mandate NPD presence at these events, and bill the event for the cost that too is fine. The events should stop selling tickets to concerts at half value and get off the public dole.

The events (last fling and ribfest) need to be moved out of the Downtown where the kill the sales tax receipts from the established businesses. Most of the attendees are not from Naperville.

Anonymous...

Again, you are using avgs which is reality may be totally wrong! As a later posted pointed out you have higher ranked officers making more OT per hour & thus it would take less hours to get to the total amount and thus less officers getting the OT...etc, etc. You need to work with hard facts & that can be obtained I would think by NPD! Guessing on what you think is not helpful!

In addition, I thought on the other thread a wife of an officer stated in response to someone posting a posting a staff position info that the officers work 12 hour shifts & do not work 6 days a week but have more days off this way. Again, the officers can chirp in here if they like but it is another thing which can easily be asked about to confirm as a fact rather than guessing!

Ken wrote; "Anonymouse 5:58pm, how often do you volunteer to do your job for free? Why do you and others expect the city to dictate that a city employee must do so? What and when a person donates to charity is their own business, not their employer's. Being a called a public servant does not mean anyone should be expected to work for free at the public's discrestion."
______________________________________________________________________

You might be on to something there Ken. I wonder how many of these anti overtime types are salary workers that are expected to "take one for the team" when they donate their time over 40? Most give their time away for the sake of not getting a bad review or being passed up for a promotion. It really is sad they think that just because they don't get paid for their time that no one else should.

Moderator,
I am not sure what you mean. I thought this was a Napergate permissible post. Please reconsider or tell me what rule I violated.

I just made the below new post to the Napergate Thread. Maybe it belongs here. Way to many posts are being deleted that I believe are hurting both the Naperville Sun and its readers. If someone does not like my post they can skip over it. I skip over half the posts after reading the first sentence.

No one is required to read your entire print edition. We read what we like and choose. Your threads should be similar. Personally, I think you are gradually destroying your awesome thread site by even censoring Napergate on Napergate permissible threads.

If you recall this is Part II OVERTIME where Napergate was permissible except for the Tollway incident. In Part I, no Napergate was permissible. People who hate Napergate can post in PART I and people who like the Napergate Man and the Napergate Party should be able to post in PART II as your rules call for.

Again, please consider reposting my deleted post!

I will make the new post I made separtely in case you want to delete these remarks. But of course, I hope you don't!

Mr. Moderator,

This is a post I made on the Napergate Thread before I saw your remarks here. I was responding to Ken there as I was responding to others here. Napergate was not on my mind. I was simply responding to a post on a specific thread. On further reveiw since it was really off topic there, why not delete it there. Why the double standards? Ken posted off topice there. You allowed it and I responded. I think you have to show complete consistenty or people may possibly begin perceiving you as an unfair Moderator. A perception you don't want as a neutral referee on this marvelous platform! Soccer games in Europe and S. America have resulted in riots when a referee was perceived to be unfair. I am sure you have caught that on the news sometime in your life!

Thanks!

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Ken,

I think you are confused. I read all of Realtor Ryan's posts on all the threads. He clearly understands that property tax is only one component of the total tax that provides for the $380 million budget.

He mentioned that other taxes such as electric, water, telephone, cable, transfer, impact and stamp taxes are coming from residential and business taxpayers with the majority from residents since there are 25-50 homes to one or two businesses. Many of the homes in Naperville are now valued in the 2 million to 5 million range and contribute hugely to our tax base.

He understands 10%-25% of our sales tax is coming from out of towners or border towns. All he said was some Auroras do spend some money in downtown Naperville, but we probably spend more money at the Fox Valley Mall and Best Buy than they spend on our Riverwalk and Downtown. In lieu of the fact they have their own downtown, their own Riverwalk, their own restaurants and 2 floating casinos, it is more likely that we have a net negative impact on sales tax with Aurorans. That means it is more likely we are subsidizing their sales, than they are our sales tax. I tend to agree with Realtor Ryan and if nothing else the Fox Valley Mall would do it alone.

I really think he makes a lot of sense. We did lose that Fox Valley Mall to Aurora. Malls have great impacts on residential property bills because of the sales tax they raise that comes from many different suburbs as opposed to a Jewel that just somce from the locals or one suburb.

When I was shopping for a home many years ago in Oak Brook, I asked my realtor what the city portion of my tax bill was. He said it was 0. I asked how that could be. He stated since Oak Brook has got a small population combined with the huge Oak Brook Mall, the sales tax impact was so great there was no need for a City Property Tax. It was zilch. Mine was in the thousands when combining Naperville, Naperville Pension, Library, Park District and PD pension. And it got substantially worse this year make it necessary for me to speak out and hopefully rally my fellow citizens to put some clamps on City of Naperville Governemnt...especially the cronyism effect of my tax bills such as culture fund money being laundered into police OT in the name of charity. That went over all ethical standards for me. That would have been a great Napergate ad to bring the City to smell the coffee again before it results in the loss of there council seats.

So as Realtor Ryan stated when Naperville lost the Fox Valley Mall to Aurora, they suffered a serious financial blow. I don't know all the details but I heard from neighbors it was within City Officials grasp, but Aurora City Officials were a little sharper and snathced it from underneath them.

If we had gotten the Fox Valley Mall, Best Buy and a few other large businesses on Rt 59 to locate on our side of Rt.59 which was all farmland at the time, our property taxes would be significantly less.

As John Q. Public stated Joe is very stubborn evey when he is wrong. He seems to be in denial. He is computing all the taxes wrong. He has no grasp of how the property or overall taxes relate to police OT.

Mr. Public and Mr. Ryan are both doing it right and giving respective percentages that make sense. Mr. Ryan used his percentages to compare us to other governmental entities and he discovered our pension costs exceeded 10 times their percentage costs. I got my real estate tax bill and reviewed his computations using my lastest numbers for 2006 that showed up on the 2007 bill for review and comparison reasons. All Mr. Ryan's numbers were 100% accurate.

Try not to be like Joe. His stubborness will be his downfall. You seem like you may have some potential if you can get rid of that cult word from your vocabulary. Joe, honestly, seems hopeless!

Moderator,

What I see is a stubborn group of five individuals on your threads who are distorting anything anyone says.

Most of the Napervillians and Napergatians here are not saying they dislike Naperville Police Officers...they are simply stating they don't like the OT they receive that should be going to the poor and needy...especially when it is our money that was taken from us under the pretext of culture.

It is one thing thing for culture money to go to charity...that is wrong but palatable.

It is another thing for culture money to go to police OT under the disguise of a charity....that is wrong and NOT palatable!

Thanks for allowing me to express my opinion!

I hope you can rein in the Group of Five who are raining havoc on all your threads. They are distorting the true feelings of Napervillians and Napergatians by being allowed to blog day and night and repeating themselves needlessly.

Please limit them to 2 posts a day per thread! That would make them think before they post and possibly spend some time doing a little research!

Moderator Jim to Rebecca: This is a free-flowing community conversation. That's the whole purpose of this blog. Thus, we're not limiting anyone to the amount of comments he or she might choose to submit. That would be censorship....don't you think?

Mr. Jim Lynch,

I agree with you that limiting this group of five on your threads is censorship.

But not posting Ernie's letter was also censorhip.

His letter was distributed on the Napergate E-mail system and there was nothing libelous, slanderous, or profane in it.

Ernie is not a high school or college kid. He appears to be a wealthy conservative man living in a 1.5 million to 2 million home based on this real estate tax numbers that he published. He seems to be upset about escalating taxes that are pinching him just like they are pinching us.

He followed all your rules. He mentioned Napergate but he did not discuss the prohibited incident.

I read his letter twice.

You never specified to Ernie where he broke your rules.

Anyway, my feeling is your are censoring in some areas and not other areas. You really are hurting your blog site by not allowing it be free flowing.

Everytime a Napergatian's letter is deleted, he or she is discouraged from writing another one since his/her efforts may be wasted due to your policy of deletion which really amounts to refined form of censorship.

The reason I don't write to the Chicago Tribune "Letters to the Editor" section is I have less than a 1 in a 100 chance of being published. Maybe a 1 in a 1000 chance since I don't consider myself a great writer.

The reason I use to like to write here is I had a 100% chance of being published.

Now I feel if my letter gets published, I am lucky. I can no longer express my free thoughts for it may be deleted even if I stay on topic.

I think Ernie is right. If someone does not like that Ernie might say that is a good point for a Napergate Ad, he does not have to read the post. All that is, is an opinion!

Maybe someone is trying to give the Naperville Sun a hint, that this would be good for Jim's Commentary on Friday in the print edition.

Most people on this site don't even know Mr. Lynch has a column on Friday even though he promoted it once or twice.

Once Mr. Lynch's column becomes hard hitting without holding back as opposed to hitting hard but retracting everything he states before the column is over with nice-a-ties to City Officials, his column will become effective and respected like those Napergate ads.

Right now we have nothing in the Sun that resembles those Napergate Watchdog ads and it is truly depressing. I think it is the reason so many bloggers mention them...it is a hint to the Naperville Sun that we want them to do investigative reporting and unravel this City Mess of Police OT once and for all as well as other numerous messes such as subsidized parking.

Maybe that is why 13.08% of my property tax bill is going to the City of Naperville while the average city resident in Dupage County outside of Naperville is only paying 9.79% in his real estate tax bill towards his or her city.

Since Realtor Ryan published his findings, I receieved a brochure with my tax bill that backs all his numbers up.

Thus it all ties together. If we were not subsidizing downtown and unnecessary police OT, we would not be encountering all these high tax bills. Top that with the 1% cultural(slush) tax which is not imposed on other Dupage Cities and is in addition to that fact we are already being creamed 3.29% on our City Property tax bill more than other cities.

What bothers me even more is that economies of scale should be working to our favor since we are a large city...but they seem to be working against us. For example all these towns have a police headquarters. But since we have 3 times or more as many residents as most Dupage towns, the NPD Headquarters should be costing us less since we can split the cost amongst 150k residens instead of only 25k or 50k residents.

But I see no economies of scales helping us. Everything is hurting us. Anything that could work to our benefit ends up in the pockets of the esablishment folks through slush funds.

Like many others in town except for these 5 guys on this blog site, I am upset and I intend on voting in the next election in an attempt to make a difference that would result in the betternment of this town we all love!

Moderator,

Just as some bloggers thought there was too much Napergate on these threads, others of us think there is too much of the Group of Five.

They simple repeat themselves and repeat each other.

At least the Napergatians gave us new perspectives and new ideas all the time.

Look at how Realtor Ryan ripped up those City Property Bills and tied them to overtime and parking deck susidies.

He ties it all together.

When have Joe, Ken, T.B., R.J. and that Applehead guy ever have contributed anything of substance to the debate on your forum? Listening to T.B. second guess every sentence he writes with a hypothetical that is unlikely to happen borders on insanity.

It seems T.B. would buy insurance in case the Dubai Skyscraper falls one day in the Red Sea and generates a Tsunami that would swallow his house. That is the level of insanity T.B. has reached with his probability and possibility discussions.

If I see the name T.B., I just skip over the post rather than read his insane defense of police OT.

I really thought Joe was nuts. I think T.B. is a nut and a half on OT!

By Naperville Sun editors on May 4, 2008 12:38 PM
Moderator Jim to Rebecca: This is a free-flowing community conversation. That's the whole purpose of this blog. Thus, we're not limiting anyone to the amount of comments he or she might choose to submit. That would be censorship....don't you think?

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Moderator Jim,

You don't seem to realize you are contradicting yourself. On one hand you say limiting is censorship...but you limit Napergatian comments even on a Napergate permissible thread.

Enie's letter was sent to me via e-mail. Can you explain why it was censored?

He did not cuss on anyone and did not talk about the Tollway Incident which we all know is prohibted.

It just seems like you are doing all you can to favor the Establishment over the Napergtians.

I am a little suprised since as Anonymous who I believe was Taxpayer stated it is amazing that only 5 people out of 150,000 people in this city of 7 by 5 miles feel like they do. They are trying to create an image that they are more than 5 by living on these blogs and controlling debate. Napergatians never intended to control debate. It may have been seen that way because their numbers outnumbered the City Men by 500 to 5. It seems a large group was censored because it was large and overwhelming influential, not because if was trying to moderate or take over a site.

The rest of us care about our real estate tax bills and wasteful police OT that could easily be avoided.

Do you live in Naperville, Mr. Moderator, and feel the pain we feel about government waste during these inflationary times? Do you have children you are trying to raise during these inflationary times? Of course unnecessary police time is going to irk me and hopefully it will irk you no matter which town you live in!

Not only is gas 4 bucks but so is milk suddenly 4 bucks...and our city officials keep raising taxes. Can you imagine going downtown to have a dinner and paying nearly 10% in sales tax and 20% in gratuity....that means a 100 dollar outing costs you $130 dollars without even boozing it up. You won't see me going downtown any time soon.

I am staying home until these restaurants cough up some of their profits for police OT and their own PARKING!

Realtor Ryan,

I appreciate that you came on and explained how this Police OT relates to our property real estate tax bills.

Your post of "By Realtor Ryan on May 2, 2008 11:54 AM" really explained it so nicely.

Everyone else here does not have an inkling what they are talking about except for maybe Ernie and the few who agreed with you.

This guy Joe is an embarrassment to City Hall and to the City of Naperville. They should track him down and ask him to stop speaking on behalf of the City and Police. He is really turning people against both while trying to turn them for.

It appears he is simply not qualified. He needs to get himself a Napergate Calculator that works...or maybe his brain just is not working!

Moderator Jim to Sarah: Wow - that was a mouthful and thanks for the biting critique of the Friday column. I think it's a credit to our transparency that I even posted your comment. I think you would be far better off taking your frustrations out on the city for your perceived slights than the newspaper that has the decency to air your gripes in a community forum.

RJ...

Point is though I may "do it for the team" I would certainly take the pay & so would anyone else! Just because we don't doesn't mean I would not want to see others not get it. How selfish is that. We complain of the younger generations being the "Me Generation" I beg to differ...it is some of the older generations in my age group who just want for themselves but do not look out for others.

Ernie...are you suggesting with your Soccor game riot example you will riot? Lovely...yes we'll now take anything you say seriously! Right! To me that was a threat...another reason not to post your comments!

Rebecca...

Lets limit everyone to 2 a day then. Discriminating? I don't want to read more than 2 of you then. Be fair! When people post saying the NPD this & that rather than saying there are a few officers here..or there...then then others are not distorting the fews of some of you on this post. Read some of them most are saying NPD & not "some officers". They are using this to justify no OT at all because a few MAY be a problem. That is ridiculous. That should be a separate issue if they think there is misconduct & they don't even know for sure. Funny, how some citizens want to be innocent before PROVEN guilty but when it comes to some citizens they want to say GUILTY first without having all the fact. Well, they think what they know is the facts but they do not investigate...find out from NPD what is going on etc. They just think what they observe is facts. Thank God they are not our officers or we would be in a lot of trouble! What one perceives may not be accurate...the whole story. I could SEE a neighbor holding hands with a woman on Chicago ave who is not this man's wife. Does that MEAN he is having an affair? NO! It may be but it may not be! Just because some say what they think is too many officers on Chicago Ave does not mean there is waste & not a reason. You may not know all the reasons! Then it certainly is not a reason to slam all of NPD if a few are a problem & it is certainly is not a reason to say all OT is a problem when they MAY not even be the ones getting the OT...again an assumption & not fact. It is these posters who make assumptions who are distorting things. They present as they have facts when they are just presenting what they "observe."

Loretta...

If you just skip over the opposite view point how do you expect those who oppose your viewpoint to read yours & consider what you have to say? If everyone just skips over & doesn't listen to the other nothing will get discussed. This type of "communication" is ineffective in any place, town, business, marriage, children etc!

Jim,

I don't think you censor intentionally but you seem to do it unintentionally based on pressure.

I am really suprised you are always catering to this group of five.

They seem able to pressure you.

The funny thing is they are not able to pesuade one blogger to their ridiculous viewpoints.

Since they have lost the persuasion battle against the Napergatians, they have resorted to pressuring the host and to a small extent succeeded.

I think you need to tell these 5 City Supporters to get off their hinds and dig up information that supports city positions.

How can anyone be a productive member of society when they blog 365 days a year? They remind me of my son who is addicted to some War Battle computer game. We finally had to pull the plug and allow him 2 hours a day.

He whined but he accepted it. He is a better person and does house chores now.

I think limiting these 5 guys to a few posts a day is not censorship. It is diversity. It is contolling their addiction. It is allowing others to participate without being subjected to attacks or hounded by these 5.

You have this guy Ken calling Napergatians cultist even after you mildly scolded him. He is disrespecting you. Throw him off for a week or two after you give him his final warning!

By Naperville Sun editors on May 4, 2008 4:22 PM
Moderator Jim to Sarah: Wow - that was a mouthful and thanks for the biting critique of the Friday column. I think it's a credit to our transparency that I even posted your comment. I think you would be far better off taking your frustrations out on the city for your perceived slights than the newspaper that has the decency to air your gripes in a community forum.

___________________________________________________________________

Moderator Jim,

I think Sarah is frustrated as many of us are. Too many Napergatian letters have been deleted. Since we do have a very strong e-mail connection from working together for so many years these letters eventually reach us.

I do not see any libel or profanity in them. Just strong anti-establishment opinion.

There was nothing wrong with June's or Ernie's last 2 letters.
Ernie posted here. He did mention a Napergate Twist for a short moment. But he did not violate any policy or talk about the Toll incident.

It just seems like you have adopted a policy of deleting every 10th Napergate Post to show the establishment you are doing your best to control the floodgates.

I think you need to open the floodgates and let the establishment control the flood they created...why do you have to control the flood for them!

Thanks for allowing me to publish and I as well as most of us appreciate this forum. We just want it to be 100% open instead of 90% open.

Gail, have you ever thought of doing stand up comedy? you are truly a funny girl I tell you.

Show me where this so called pressure is? We may have pointed out where the napergatians have broken the rules, but that isn't pressure. At least not the pressure you all put on him to ban the 5. As has been pointed out many times, when one can't attack the message, go for the messenger.

As far as blogging 24/7/365, you had best go back and look again. There are several NG types that post as much or more than the 5. Personally, I post on the weekends for the most part now, as work is busy and I am taking advantage of the OT.

I still find it humorous how the so called 500 pro napergatians expect the Sun to finance their wet dream. If indeed there are 500 of you, which is highly doubtful, all you need to do is cough up $20 a month each and buy your own ads in the Sun. I am sure Jim would be more than happy to help you get in touch with the advertising department.

You call your selves a movement, well some of us do to, but not the same kind,yet you have no leader and no money. All that makes for is a bunch of yapping lap dogs, easily kicked to the curb only to run home yelping. I have yet to see a political action group/party ever influence anyone with just a blog site. For any group to get anywhere, it takes $$. Show us the money, or spend your lives yapping like you have been.

I just can not see how anyone can support their 1% cultural tax going to support Police Overtime through a charity slush fund.

It is really beyond imagination.

As many here said most sports and music events with many hot headed people use 90% private security backed by cops that are already on duty on that beat for no addtional cost to the taxpayer.

I went to a Chicago Fire soccer game. They had ushers, a decent amount of security and a handful of cops. There was about 15,000 in attendance.

Nothing went wrong...everything was so peaceful.

Of course it would be better if they had 200 cops making REGULAR or OT there in addition to all the private security but is it practical! Is it reasonable! Is it affordable! Is it worth it because one day some one will shoot at a sporting event.

To the best of my knowledge we have thousands of sporting events a year in the USA. I don't ever recall a fan or an athlete ever being shot at a sporting event. Maybe it has happened and I just did not read about it.

T.B. would lke us to spend $300 dollar on 200 cops for 4 hours at each sporting event.

I can tell you the Chicago Fire could not afford to. Should they go out of business. Why should they spend this kind of money for a one in a billion chance? And who is to say an OT cop will be able to stop a gun man in time anyway. Most likey in that kind of event he will be jumped and stopped by the crowds before police or security ever get there if that ever happens...hopefully it will never happen!

T.B. has really not been reasonable of late. I once thought highly of him. My feelings are no longer the same as he has become Mr. Hypothetically Impossible on this Blog Site. He has really reached the point of ANNOYANCE and ARROGANCE!

____________________________________________________________________

Just for the record having 200 cops at a soccer game making $75each per hour would add 4 dollars to each fan's ticket at the Chicago Fire that averages 15,000 fans a game...sometimes much less!!

This team is struggling and trying to pay for excess police at OT rates would certainly run them out of business. They use common sense.

In Naperville we don't use common sense....we just rack it on and up. And now we have City of Naperville property bills that are up over 15% in one year.

Dick Furstenau and the Napergate Man had the foresight to see where this was leading to. Now we can all see what they have been telling us for years about police OT and waste. It is finally in black and white!!!!

Ken and R.J.,

Neither of you appear to be able to grasp the concept of volunteerism.

I volunteer untold hours of my personal time for several non-profit community organizations. I also volunteer my personal time for my church and our school.

During my work day I also perform pro bono work when I am able. The type of work I do has both well funded clients as well as those who are struggling financially for a variety of reasons. I have always done my best to find a way for them to be able to afford my services whether it be by reduced rates or gratis services. My professional rates are the same 24/7/365 which means I do not charge a shift differential, overtime, or anything else. I could make a lot more money if I didn't do some jobs for free or at reduced rates, but I would have to live with my conscience too if I didn't. And I'm not alone I know a huge number of people in our community and across our country who think and operate exactly like I do.

All I am asking is how much do City of Naperville employees give back to this city and our community organizations every year through volunteer hours of their own personal time? Time on the clock for the City of Naperville certainly does not count. Collecting overtime certainly does not count. How many of the 33 police officers a day who are working overtime at Ribfest or Last Fling come back off shift and volunteer their time to collect tickets, clean-up, man the information desk, or do any other of the hundreds of jobs that are needed?

I know lots of employers who organize and keep track of which organizations their employees participate with and how many hours a year they volunteer. There are also a lot of employers who "adopt" a cause and promote all of the employees volunteering together for a day or a weekend... real company team building in action.

Can the City of Naperville do no less? Can the City of Naperville not tell us what all of these hundreds and hundreds of city employees themselves are doing on their own personal time to make our community better? How about this year a Ribfest and Last Fling the City of Naperville actively recruit every single City of Naperville employee all the way up to include every single City Council member to work a 4 hour shift at both the Ribfest and the Last Fling?

I would support every single one of these employees getting compensatory time off later in the year, scheduled so it did not cause staffing shortages of course. I would also support money from our culture fund being spent to buy every single one of them a t-shirt that has something printed in it like: "I work for you Naperville and I am here today as a volunteer".

Some may think my suggestion to pay for the t-shirts is another waste of culture fund money. While it probably could be construed that way I do know this... first, the t-shirts won't cost $100,000 and second, at least we won't be spending the money on overtime salaries, and three the Ribfest and the Last Fling will both benefit by approximately 4,000 additional hours of volunteer work.

To the 5 Naperville Police officers,

Enjoy it while it lasts. And remember nothing lasts forever. Laws and ordinances can and will change. Contracts come and go. What exists in a contract today is no guarantee that it will exist in a future contract.

All over the county change is coming about. It may be slow, but it is coming. Taxpayers are sniffing our and making a stink out of other sweetheart deals so don't feel like you are being picked on or singled out. You are not. You are just about to be part of the reform that is needed to restore confidence and credibility in local government.

Of course if you don't agree with the change you are free to leave just like us in the private sector. When our pay is cut by 20% if we don't like it we can leave to. When our company isn't doing well financially and the boss cuts out all overtime if we can't live on straight time, well we can go find another job that pays better or has a better chance of getting some overtime.

Just don't expect that what you once had in Naperville is a sacred cow because it isn't and won't be. The shame of it is that a few bad apples ruined it for a couple of hundred others. Most everyone in Naperville probably would have supported a reasonable amount of overtime, but a certain few had to suck hind tit never knowing when to stop and not sharing it around so now a couple of hundred officers will pay the price for what a handful did.

Maybe the next time the police union gets together for a business meeting you might want to considering your own change of rules for the next contract so that a few spoilers don't ruin the whole party for everyone.

Lessons learned for everyone here, I just hope the police and the police union have a really good handle on how upset most of Naperville is on what has been going on.

Watch it RJ, you mentioned that you get OT, so now cult will all insist you are a member of the NPD. While I am not on 24/7 as claimed, many days I do have time to check the site every couple of hours. I mentioned why once before, but since many of you admit to not reading my posts, why bother mentioning why again? If there is something to respond to, it is only a matter of minutes to whip off a reply.

I think it is funny that the cult members want us to dig up information. We have done so many times, even sourced the information, and are immediately proclaimed liars. This happens even when the facts we post are indisputable.

Many of you are whining that we should be banned, or our posts limited, especially because many of the napergate cult posts have been deemed unacceptable. Have you thought of trying to keep your posts on topic and follow the simple rules that the moderators want observed? You also claim to out number us 500-5 (another cult fallacy), so it would seem fair that we post up to 100 posts a day just to keep up. Of course, we don't do that, and we don't whine that 495 of you should not be allowed to post to even it out.

Last but not least, many of the cult members object to my classification of them as such. I have said that I will not call them that if Jim or Ted ask me not to do so. They have not. Jim has mentioned that he takes issue with me for doing so, but maybe he has realized that the only time I do it is when the cult attacks first with name calling, belittlement, or asking for some form of me being banned. When the cult can stop that, and I have said this before, I will stop the cult references.

WOW! I can't believe all the assumptions...it is just too funny! If my students did as many assumptions...geez!

Gail...first think about this..have you actually counted up every person here to see if they posted 365? If you did that means you are on 365! Come on! And I'm on listservs everyday for my job and answering email for my students everyday....is that addicted? NO! When you can't go & live your life that is an addiction! Not one person on here is posting 1000s of messages a day! That is an addiction! When they can't live their life & their family & job suffers..that is an addiction. I suggest you look up what an addiction is. There is no one on her that has an addiction I assure you! Again, maybe why people do not take you seriously because you try to make assumptions and belittle & claim things that are just not true.

Norma...interesting analogy...flood...isn't that something that is harmful? Might want to think about that again. When people post things that are not to the point of this thread they should be deleted. Otherwise why not post on anything & everything on this thread.

R.J....could you just watch it a bit. While I would not say I have Angel ears..."wet dreams"? While I don't support those who are totally anti-OT, I would think there are some females in that group...oh wait...do we have them too? Still just not needed here and doesn't make others who don't know you think respectfully of you. Be above others rather than meet them at their level.

Maryann...for you to say there were not many officers just because you did not see them...come on...you went around the whole place & counted them...made sure they were not moving as you circled the place? Did you see any of the game then? As someone already posted, there is a misperception of the heavy reliance of security guards at big events.

Anonymous attacking Ken & RJ...it is amazing that you seem to think you know...they do not volunteer at all? Wow! How do you know they do not volunteer even more than you do. Is this a contest...who does the most? And if they are working a shift at the Fest & maybe even OT then I would think they would be a bit tired & should go home & not cleaning up. We should be doing the cleaning up as a thank you to them for what they do for us every day & for the event. Some martyr you are. There are plenty of officers who volunteer...the thing is they don't broadcast it all over and say look at me volunteering or say...hey you should be too...they just do it! They don't want a thank you or others to recognize them. And to think that noone else charges more...give me a break! In 1990 I took my Cat into an Emergency Hospital about 2 hours south of Naperville. No rich area & to walk in the door was $80! That wasn't being charge for one Q-tip or anything...just crossing the door! Anything more they did was more! Try to find a dentist volunteer coming in at 3am for you...they are very rare breed that quickly are becoming extinct! They won't come or charge you incredible amounts. They don't volunteer! Do you see anyone volunteering their time to work at McDonalds? Hey everyone should then! As I said before everyone thinks 'public servant' means do it for free or next to nothing! Do you know how many officers may have stayed overtime 15-30 minutes here or there over many years & never counted that time? Some who are at home & a problem occurs on their block and help out a bit until others come? Do you think they charge the city for that every time. Think people!

Anonymous attacking 5 officers...again watch the language "suck hind tit" ya maybe that is why your boss may say no OT to you so you just quit & they don't have to fire you. I'm so surprised the moderator allows this type of language. Ya..free speech...anyone can let themselves look unprofessional. You can CHOOOSE to offend people but don't be surprised they don't take you seriously. As for things changing...they change both ways! And why would you or any citizen say no OT because of a few bad apples? Not just the union, why do you say no OT then? Why don't you just say, "guys, lets take care of anyone abusing the system." That says something more about you.

Realtor Ryan –

Let’s just say that I value safety highly and think the city should do whatever they deem necessary for our safety. If that means they “over –do-it” for our benefit, I’m all for it.

You’re “billion hypotheticals” are all in your head. Lawsuit liability is a legitimate argument with regard to private security. I just ask that you consider that in your quest to extinguish OT with regard to the fests.

Please re-read my post. I never said insurance companies don’t have billions of dollars, I just pointed out that it doesn’t matter how much money the insurance companies have because your coverage is determined by your policy. If you want to rail me for something, at least get the facts straight first.

Your insurance issue raises serious questions. You seem to indicate that the OT savings could be placed into insurance, thus eliminating the liability issue. This sounds like what Ford did with the Pinto, when they decided that a recall would be more costly than the lawsuits they would surely suffer from their poor design. How much are our lives worth, Ryan?

Lastly, if you would bother to read my posts you would see that I am all for cutting NPD OT where necessary, but I just don’t think the fest OT is the best place to start. If the $100K figure being used here is correct, the (reimbursed) fest OT is just 3% of all OT. Why do you continue to hammer away at this portion and ignore the other 97%?

Ryan, why don’t you clarify something for me. Are you against any OT for the fests, or against any OT period? Do you believe it is possible for the NPD to eliminate all OT whatsoever?

**********

Loretta –

Your post is ridiculous. Why would you not pay for more safety for a fest. Just because it has always been safe, does that mean it always will be? All I asked was for the proponents of the private security crowd to think about the city’s liability if something did go wrong. Is that so bad? Saving money now could cost us millions down the line.

Hey, if you respond to me, what does that say about your vow to not read my posts?

T.B.

Realtor Ryan –

Let’s just say that I value safety highly and think the city should do whatever they deem necessary for our safety. If that means they “over –do-it” for our benefit, I’m all for it.

You’re “billion hypotheticals” are all in your head. Lawsuit liability is a legitimate argument with regard to private security. I just ask that you consider that in your quest to extinguish OT with regard to the fests.

Please re-read my post. I never said insurance companies don’t have billions of dollars, I just pointed out that it doesn’t matter how much money the insurance companies have because your coverage is determined by your policy. If you want to rail me for something, at least get the facts straight first.

Your insurance issue raises serious questions. You seem to indicate that the OT savings could be placed into insurance, thus eliminating the liability issue. This sounds like what Ford did with the Pinto, when they decided that a recall would be more costly than the lawsuits they would surely suffer from their poor design. How much are our lives worth, Ryan?

Lastly, if you would bother to read my posts you would see that I am all for cutting NPD OT where necessary, but I just don’t think the fest OT is the best place to start. If the $100K figure being used here is correct, the (reimbursed) fest OT is just 3% of all OT. Why do you continue to hammer away at this portion and ignore the other 97%?

Ryan, why don’t you clarify something for me. Are you against any OT for the fests, or against any OT period? Do you believe it is possible for the NPD to eliminate all OT whatsoever?

**********

Loretta –

Your post is ridiculous. Why would you not pay for more safety for a fest. Just because it has always been safe, does that mean it always will be? All I asked was for the proponents of the private security crowd to think about the city’s liability if something did go wrong. Is that so bad? Saving money now could cost us millions down the line.

Hey, if you respond to me, what does that say about your vow to not read my posts?

T.B.

Maryann-

“T.B. would lke us to spend $300 dollar on 200 cops for 4 hours at each sporting event”.

Where, oh where, did you get this from. I never commented at all regarding any sporting events. Your post is an outright lie. Is it so hard to stick to what I wrote if you want to criticize me?

Now, if you would have bothered to read my posts you would note that I am happy to have the NPD at our fests (OT or not), but would like the fest organizers (NOT taxpayers) pay for the security. How hard is this to comprehend, woman?

Trust me, the height of “ANNOYANCE and ARROGANCE” is someone who can’t even report facts as they happened or how they were written.

I have explained the “hypothetical” crap time and time again. If you wish to ignore the potential lawsuit liability of the private security issue, go right ahead. I just asked you and others to think about that issue. Obviously that was too much for you to consider in your headlong rage against the fest OT, no matter who paid.

T.B.

The Naperville Sun article identified an unnamed patrol officer who earned $109,971 including $25,964 in overtime. That means this patrol officer earns a base salary of $84,007 per year. That equals a straight time salary of $40.39 and an overtime rate of $60.59. That also means this patrol officer had to work at least 428 hours of overtime which equals a weekly average of 8 1/4 hours of overtime, every single week last year. Overtime for this patrol officer equals 31% of salary.

The Naperville Sun also pointed out that a rookie patrol officer starts at $54437 per year or $26.17 per hour and can expect to earn about $2766 in overtime or about 1 1/2 hour of overtime every week of the year. Overtime for this patrol officer equals 5% of salary.

Now here is where it get interesting. Overtime is handed out on a seniority basis, yet is billed at a flat rate of $54.00 per hour.

Example 1 $100,000 in overtime at Ribfest and Last Fling. We don't really know the TRUE TOTAL of how much overtime is actually PAID OUT to police officers and other city employees who work at these two events. ALL we know at this point is that the City of Naperville has been playing a shell game by laundering at least $100,000 through the Exchange Club and Jaycees for some of the overtime. The City of Naperville payroll department has not confirmed the TRUE TOTAL for all city employee overtime working on these two events.

Example 2 $100,000 divided by the billed rate of $54.00 per hour of police overtime equals 1,852 hours of overtime. We do know that some cherry overtime like the Ribfest and Last Fling are going to be sucked up by the most senior crew. We do not know the total number of officers who actually worked these 1,852 hours nor do we know their actual hourly rate of compensation. If a lot of them are anywhere near the highest paid patrol officer that prompted this news article that means an unbilled difference of $6.59 per hour... or a potential total of another $12,205 in overtime that was actually paid to these officers at these two events without being reimbursed by the event organizers.

Example 3 Now if the overtime had instead been assigned to the patrol officers with the least experience and lowest salary... 1,852 hours times $39.26 would have resulted in a grand total of $72,700 in overtime. That would have resulted in a savings of $27,300 which was billed back to the event organizers for the same equivalent work effort. And a more likely savings of $39,500 in what was more likely paid out to these more senior officers.

Truth #1. These police officers are there for a show of force and to collect a sweetheart deal of overtime. There simply is not and never has been any serious crime at Ribfest or Last Fling. A few arguments. A few drunks. A few fights. Nothing that can not be handled by private security, backed up by sworn police officers on their regular shift working their regular beat.

Truth #2. The police officers at Ribfest and Last Fling are simply not equipped to PREVENT anything really nasty from happening. Could they react if something really nasty happened? Yes. But there is an enormous difference between prevention and reaction. Patrol officers on a regular beat can react to a situation too. The police officers lost in the crowd that makes up these events might have at best a couple of minutes advantage and effectively they may actually have no advantage at all. If something really, really bad like firing a gun happened at one of these events the crowd would very likely stampede and the police officers inside the event would be powerless to do anything for quite a long time. In fact these officers would be just as much at risk of injury or worse. But the bottom line is they can not and will not prevent anything really bad from happening. All they can do is react if something bad does happen.

Truth #3. Past history does not indicate that these police officers are either a deterrent to the types of problems that typically exist at these events or that the number of arrests made during the course of these events warrant anywhere near these numbers of police officers. In fact, the number of actual arrests is so low that there is a lot of support that these events could be entirely manned by private security who could hand off any violators to the regular police officers working normal shift duty on beats in or adjacent to these events and without one hour of police overtime being necessary or required.

T.B.,

We ALL fact POTENTIAL lawsuit liability. None of us can predict when or if someone will file a lawsuit against us. If someone is worried about this fact of life in the US they can be: 1. real careful about what activities they engage in, 2. be real careful they don't break any laws, 3. purchase insurance protection, 4. hire private security guards.

Trying to persuade people to believe there is a potential lawsuit liability from hiring private security is simply nonsense. Not only can the event organizer purchase insurance but they can also require the private security to carry insurance as well.

That is actually one hell of a lot better situation than what the City of Naperville currently does anyway since the City of Naperville does not have any insurance. That is right, ZERO INSURANCE. If a lawsuit gets filed for what one of the sworn police officers does or does not do the citizens of Naperville are totally exposed to this liability. We have ZERO protection. If the court finds in favor of the plaintiff we pay for our lawyers, we pay for their lawyers and we pay whatever the jury decides is fair compensation.

Go get a lawyer and sue anyone for anything these days. Rather than dwell on that reality of current day life in the US, we all accept it and go on. We are not paralyzed against crossing streets because we might get hit by a car. We should be no less afraid of hiring an insured private security firm because they or the event organizer might get sued. In fact there is one heck of a lot more practical possibilities that indicate the actual liability to the City of Naperville would decrease if it was a totally private event that was not staffed by sworn police officers.

Bottom line though, in the 20 year history of the Ribfest and Last Fling exactly how many lawsuits have been filed and how much has the City of Naperville had to pay out to settle all claims where the City was found negligent? Same question as pertains to the Exchange Club? Same question as pertains to the Jaycees?

Exactly. It is a hypothetical problem not a practical or realistic problem. Enough with the scare tactics. Go ahead bring us some more of your hypotheticals and we will be glad to expose all the faults and flaws in them for you as well.

Anon,

Patrol officers on a regular beat have a larger area to cover than just 'ribfest'.

They can not respond to a call anywhere near as fast as officers ON SCENE.

This summer, during ribfest, why don't you park your car over at Mesa Sabika (sp?) and time yourself responding to a 'call' inside the event. Tell us how long it takes you to get there from 'just down the street'.

Make sure to try this during one of the busy evening shows too.

Anonymous,

Other than your first two paragraphs quoting the Naperville Sun articles, uour entire post is theories based on unsubstantiated assumptions.

More junk math that might make sense to some, but not based not proven reality of the situations.

I might remind you that the NPD is burdened by thousands of people, and traffic entering and exiting the city for these special events from morning to night, not just on the event grounds.

These last few posts...ugh!

Firsts, I find it hard to believe the officers do not have liability insurance when teachers do through their union & schools? Now they may max out at some point...as TB said it is the policy you pay for but they do have it.

Anonymous, first you say there are too many officers & then you say not enough that something realistically could not be done? What? What is your argument on senior officers getting the OT first? Yes, that is union negotiated & quite frankly everywhere in the world. Sr. students get to register for classes first, seniors get seats first on the bus...oh wait...I see ya we are lapsing in this attitude these days! It gets worse & worse with each generation...thank you for making me seem old now & complain like my parents did & make them right that I would one day! Why should sr officers get it first! They paid their dues...noone these days wants to pay their dues as they go up in the ranks. College graduates expect high salaries right away & higher than entry level positions. Give me a break!

You know darn well presence can make a difference...how much depends on how much presence. Just as the kids on my block will not be stupid if an officer is sitting in his car on the street than if they are not there. The idea is to prevent as much as possible & then to minimize the consequences if things should happen. You have less & have it be your child be the one that has the consequences because they had to call an officer & with even a few 15 seconds of him coming it makes a difference! I tell you what every time you have a problem & require an officer we will permanently assign you an officer with the least seniority to come take care of you. Am I saying they can't take care of anything & everything...they should...but does experience make a huge difference YES! Does for almost every job/career! We'll even give you the one fresh on the job that week...you can have the first day waitress, check-out person, doctor who is operating on his first patient etc! You get them all! Have fun!

Even if you figures are right on 8 1/4 a week...that is about a bit more than 1 hour a day extra? Who doesn't stay later? If I even counted the hours extra I do each day! People are whining because they don't get it. How many people on here are complaining & they themselves get OT at their job?

OWVY,

"How many people on here are complaining & they themselves get OT at their job?"

Maybe people are resentful because they have to work OT and don't get paid for it...

Not junk math, you just don't like the answers.

Obviously you have never, ever been in a stampede. I have and was lucky enough to escape alive, others were not. In a horrific situation the officers over at Meson Subika will probably be the only ones still able to respond.

It is heartening to know that the citizens who come to Ribfest are a burden on the Naperville Police Department. Obviously the NPD would prefer that all these people stay away, that the City not collect all the sales tax, that the police not collect all this OT, and the regular beat officers can go back to sleep hiding out behind the donut shop?

Show of force. Police presence. Visibility. Like all of these techniques were not being used and a bomb still went off in Atlanta during the Olympics? Want to talk about hundreds of other examples of terrible things that have been done and these techniques failed as a deterrent?

Check it out if you don't believe it. The fact remains the City of Naperville is not insured. We The People pay for our own losses, claims, accidents, lawsuits, etc.

Anonymous,

I think we need to have at least 5 sworn police NPD officers patrolling Jackson St. during the Last Fling who are present on the scene in additon to those on the regular beat for that area who may only amount to be 2 police officers and 2 park district police officers since the area is also the Riverwalk area which is under PD police jurisdiction.

We don't need 33 police officers for what amounts to a 4 block festival on Jackson St in downtown Naperville. That gives you one sworn officer per street giving him a chance to get to any scene in less than 10 seconds as long as he is reasonably fit. Plus a rotating officer who can check on the library parking lot and a few other areas a little off Jackson. If there are concerts on the hill going on that I am not aware of as in the Rib Fest throw in a couple of more police officers...no problem!

We then can have 26-28 private security supplemanting them at $10 to $15 bucks per hour. Even double that to 52-56 private secruity would cost about half as much as 28 sworn officers on OT but yet have double the eyes and double the ears.

I don't mind using 5-7 senior officers as they earned their stripes over time(by that I mean over the years and not OT). If we have to just pay 5-7 senior NPD officers OT at 75 bucks, I can live with it. But I prefer they be given time off as compensation when times may be slow in the city. The ideal solution is to have a few more police officers on the NPD and avoid all OT except emergency OT such as in murders or minor catastophes that can not be forseen! And I understand there may be a late arrest on a shift that needs an extra half an hour of OT here and there. But this should not amount to 6-8 hours per officer per week in OT...that is ridiculous. How often does an officer make an arrest in the last 15 minutes of his shift...once a month!

I think each officer is paid according to his pay scale. I don't think there is a flat OT rate of 54 bucks. I could be wrong. This number came, I believe, from police officer Mr. Popo from possibly the Aurora police dept. on this blog site. I believe this is what he made in OT and simply used it as an example.

Just for the record, Mr. Popo, stopped bloggin, as soon as a few Napergatians got him to pretty much admit that Professional Courtesy was so widespread in police depts. that it included breaks for wives, children, all kinds of relatives, neighbors, friends, council members you like, all police officers, all firemen, certain personality traits, young nurses, all doctors of all ages since one may operate on him and it went on and on. I am sure his Chief grabbed him and finally shut him up after Napergatians figured he was from Aurora. Just like our Chief Dial muzzled Mrs. of the Police Officer who is married to a Naperville Police Officer after she revealed how Professional Courtesy works....how dare they reveal the hidden secrets of their respective police depts!!!

As Napergatians have been stating for months, Professional Courtesy, is a form of discrimination under the cover and disguise of discretion. Many thanks to Mr. Popo and Mrs. of the Police Officer for backing us up and proving our facts and points. No hypotheticals here! Just reality.

Anonymous.
Garbage in, garbage out = junk math.

Maryann,
Just plain garbage. Discretion and discrimination does not equal wrongdoing.

Anonymous,

T.B.'s liability claim arguments to use NPD OT for a private charity event are very ridiculous, especially if as you are saying the City of Naperville is not insured. Many large cities and large corporations such as Wal-Mart, McDonalds and 7-11 self insure. They are so big they can handle any claim like it was a drop in the bucket so why buy insurance. It makes sense from a business and ecomonical point view. I doubt Exxon-Mobil with $10.9 billion in profit this quarter needs to buy insurance either.

It makes sense that the City of Naperville is not insured and wasting all this taxpayer money on insurance for the most unlikely of events.

Worse case scenario if something went wrong that cost us $3.15 million, Mr. Joe, calculated it will only cost us taxpayers .96 cents each for one single year. Worse case scenario if we lost a $31.5 million lawsuit, it would only cost us each $9.60 for one year according to Joe.(of course I disagree but simply using Joe's nonsense against Joe) I am sure that is less than any annual insurance would cost us year after year. Insurance companies only sell insurance if they can make a profit. So it is smart to self-insure if you are big and can afford to safely and wisely.

If we don't have insurance as you say, Anonymous, it makes all the sense in the world to have an outside company who has liability insurance to do the security for us. Suddenly we are covered. Before with our own police if something went wrong it is from taxpayers wallets.

How nice that we can get private security for 10-15 bucks per each security guard that comes with liability insurance! The City of Naperville knows how to look at the policies to make sure the insurance is current and adequate.

I really think T.B. is completely off with his nonsense hypotheticals. Since he was so worried about liability insurance, I would like to see him reverse himself since the private security that comes at one fourth the price of a senior Naperville Cop making OT, does come with liability insurance. The city is in a powerful position to only hire those security personnel who come with insurance.

Every valet and liquor estbalishment in Naperville comes with insurance where the City is also named as the insured. That is city policy. Force everyone to have insurance with them named on the policy, so they don't have to be liable execept in remote and extreme cases. I would say smart City Policy!

The City of Naperville does the right things often. They seem to do all the wrong things when friendships and conflict of interest take place such as when you have a Police Chief, Manager and Mayor all from the NPD and favoring the NPD at any cost over reasonable savings to taxpayers.

I can not believe that T.B. is supporting our 1% sales tax cultural fund money going to pay police OT through the disguise of a charity event. This is so wrong and unethical and T.B. supports this practice. Who cares if it is 3% or 30%. It is unethical, wrong, costly and avoidable.

Every per cent counts and this is the worse part of the OT since we are being taxed special for it under the disguise of improving culture in our town. How can paying police OT have anything to do with culture? This amounts to a FRAUD being perpetuated against the Naperville Taxpayer. And Mr. MBA TB supports FRAUD, CRONYISM, SCAMS, and SLUSH FUNDS being implemented against the Naperville Taxpayer.

I honestly can not believe an MBA could be this immature. What did this guy learn in graduate school? He not only has no common sense but he also has no business sense. Absolutely none!

Maryann,

You are using an old number that has since been self-corrected.

Continuing to use a number that I already explained how it was derived (with city budgetary notes and the math formula to arrive at it using one's own real estate tax bill) and even updated with more recent data makes you simply appear ignorant and immature. Further, I wrote that it was an individualized number and that everyone's would be different and you trying to apply it to all as if everyone had the same number just hammers home the point that you simply do not 'get it'.

I'm done placating you.

A previous post brought up that Chief Dial doesn't know what to do with all of the police officers during the summer who work in the D203 and D204 schools the rest of the year.

How many police officers total do we have working in the schools anyway??

Is it rocket science for Chief Dial to assign all of these officers to work Ribfest and Last Fling on STRAIGHT TIME since they are all basically bonus help to the department during the summer months?

What is it going to take to break the sweetheart deal with police staffing levels and overtime which is robbing charities of financial resources to line the pockets of a few?

There are strong arguments against the need to pay any overtime to police officers. There are strong arguments against the need to use any sworn police officers. There are strong arguments that all of the security needs can be handled by private security.

If the City of Naperville screwedd up so badly that we ended up with this police welfare system, then the City of Naperville needs to start working on fixing it. There is an old saying... you have to spend money to make money... until the City of Naperville fixes this mess I propose the City Council sits down and figures out just how much police officer staffing is necessary... remember these are not city ordinances, rather police department policies set by the police department itself which is self serving to say the least. The City Council needs to step in and work with the Exchange Club and give them permission to hire all the private security they are able to reduce the need for police officers. The bare bones minimum that is left... well if these officers have to get paid OT, so be it. The city council has granted $100,000 out of the "culture fund" for this year. If the total cost of overtime or any other city employees salaries goes over the $100,000 grant then the City Council should pay it out of all the thousands of dollars of sales tax they are collecting during Ribfest and Last Fling... sometimes you've got to spend money to make money.

To Southwest Naperville Taxpayer,

You simply choose to disagree with any numbers other than your own.

That's fine, I can live that. I stand behind the accuracy and truthfulness of my numbers. Since there are really only 5 people who either disagree with my numbers or don't understand them, I can live that as well.

It would be unreasonable of me to expect to get through to absolutely everyone, yourself included.

Actually, Maryann, Mr.Popo quit posting when he realized he was wasting his time trying to explain anything to close minded cult members such as yourself. He gave common sense answers to you and your ilk's continued accusations of police corruption. Since you and your ilk are so close minded, he finally realized he had better things to do.

The thought that you napergatians drove anyone from this site, or have influenced manpower decisions by the NPD is laughable. Just like most of your posts.

Sorry guys...union contract rules have to be obeyed or there will be trouble. If you have seniority first for OT in the contract there is no way you are going to change it. We have seniority first in our contracts & it could not be changed if parents or students didn't like it. Joe you are right, people are just jealous. If any of these people who were complaining were actually getting OT they would not want to be getting rid of it.

Again, why do we need all this officers at schools? Sure the first time something happens these same people will be complaining there were not enough!

Maryann...when you say "I am sure" you need to have proof? Where is yours?

Hey everyone...what happens as each officer who has an incident happen (not just a traffic ticket) has to come in & take care of the person in the dept and fill out paperwork? Whose out on the street? If you have an exact amount as someone is saying 2 only here & 3 there then what happens when they come in to take care of an incident? Who is covering then? THINK!

By Mr POPO on April 21, 2008 9:36 PM

This is how it works....
I make about $75,000 base salary + $3000 paid vacation (We dont get any holidays off)
OT rate is about $54 per hour based on time and a half. Last year I made about $95k and took about 4wks worth of comp time(Extra vacation) in lieu of OT pay.

__________________________________________________________________

Folks,
Mr. Popo took 4 wks worth of comp time in lieu of OT pay. He does not work in Naperville but another police department.

My question is why isn't Naperville trying to give police officers comp time off in lieu of OT pay. If we are a little short on police officers then we should hire a few more and start giving comp time instead of OT. It is much cheaper and makes sense to me.

If other departments do it why can't we......I guess other police departments feel there are better alternatives to giving OT and I think City of Naperville should look into those possibilities.

Compromise..

Just do away w/ Ribfest.

Anonymous,

There are a few points you seem to be ignoring:

1. Using more police officers to provide staffing does not necessarily mean savings to taxpayers compared to overtime for fewer officers when you consider the efficiency, salary, training, overtime, and benefits for each officer. It is not just the amount they are paid per hour. As Mr. Popo mentioned, overtime is part of their contracts.

2. City Council is charged with looking out for the best interest of the city, including public safety during special events. Another top priority is the compensation of our police officers. How would it be in the best interest of the city to exclude the NPD from being compensated for special events, and replacing them with outside private security? It is nonsense.

3. As I mentioned previously, there's plenty of non-police security on the event grounds, but police are needed both on and off the grounds to deal with the increased crowds, and traffic associated with the events. The city deserves to be compensated by organizers for the additional police needed for the events. It's not taking from the charities. It's part of the expenses of the event, just like buying the concessions to sell, or paying for the entertainment. What you call a sweetheart deal, I call a good deal for the city and citizens of Naperville.

4. Why criticize using the Culture Fund to help the Exchange Club, and Rotary Club? They sponsor special events that bring music and entertainment to the city, and help alot of great charities at the same time. I have been a volunteer at Ribfest for the last few years, along with hundreds, or maybe thousands of other volunteers. I even met the wife of a police officer who also volunteered one year. I don't begrudge the police officers who have to work, and get paid for these events. I want to volunteer my time to help the charities, and the police need to be there to do their jobs.

Southwest Naperville Taxpayer,

There are a few points you seem to be ignoring:

1. Police OT is not a bottomless pit. Private sector organizations, for profit and non-profit, must manage their payroll costs or go out of business. Government agencies need to manage their payroll and their overtime. You obviously are neither a people or money manager because you indicate zero knowledge of any of the effective techniques that are available to competent managers who can and do manage these costs to keep them within the annual budget.

2. Compensation of police officers is NOT a top priority for the City Council. Granted, it probably is a top priority for the police officers and the police union. There is no legal basis to hire sworn police officers for special events. There is no city ordinance requiring certain police officer staffing levels at special events. The staffing levels are determined by the police department and rammed down the throat of the special event organizers. One hundred percent of the security at these special events could be handled without the need for ANY sworn police officers. The fact also exists that provision have always been in our state laws that even allow for private security officers or even regular citizens to be granted temporary police powers. The fact that both the Ribfest and the Last Fling DO have their own private security only further demonstrates that the Naperville Police Officers are redundant and unnecessary. The fact that they are there working at overtime rates only adds insult to injury beyond the simple fact that they are all standing around talking and not doing anything. The total number of arrests at Ribfest and Last Fling simply do not warrant these sweetheart staffing levels. What is next will the health department require 5 health inspectors to monitor food safety and port-o-john cleanliness? Will the electrical department require 7 inspectors to monitor temporary electrical hookups? Will the building department require 8 inspectors to monitor the towers and stages and tents and other temporary structures? Why doesn't the whole city work force belly up to bar and see how much more charity money they can suck out of the good the Exchange Club and Jaycees are trying to raise?

3.A. All of the security needs on and off the grounds including traffic control can and should be handled by private security. Crowd control does not take a sworn police officer nor does traffic control. It is interesting to note that the City of Naperville does not, by policy, allow police officers to direct traffic at intersections. Ever notice the street department went around and installed the folding stop signs at all the intersections with stop lights? Yes, if the lights go out there are no Naperville Police Officers directing traffic, just the folding stop signs deployed and motorists left to fend for themselves. Then along comes Ribfest and Last Fling and all of a sudden traffic control is a concern for the Naperville Police Department.

3.B. The City of Naperville DOES NOT deserve to be compensated for anything. The City of Naperville is not shy about charging a whole host of fees for special events. These fees include vending permits, health permits, liquor permits, there are permits for tents, inspections. The list goes on. Let's also remember the City of Naperville has the option to reject the request and simply turn it down. Let's also remember the City of Naperville benefits greatly by drawing hundreds of thousands of people to Naperville. Many of them will come back and spend more money in our stores and restaurants. Just from Ribfest and Last Fling the City of Naperville collects a boat load of cash in sales tax.

3.C. Anyone who knows the basics of charity or non-profit accounting understands the principle of reducing or eliminating all unnecessary overheard, salary, and other costs associated with fund raising so that the maximum amount of dollars will go directly to the primary purpose of the benefiting organization. In fact charities and non-profit organizations are coming under more and more fire when they allow these costs to grow out of control. There are independent organizations that scrutinize such spending and publish score cards so that the general public will know whether or not the organization is exhibiting good stewardship of charitable dollars. There are also moves underway in many states and communities to decertify non-profit organizations and even some churches that are believed to be sham organizations collecting under certain pretexts yet contributing next to nothing in reality. If the Ribfest and Last Fling collected "X" amount of dollars and then paid out most of that money for "event expenses" and only a very small portion actually ended up going to charity they would become one of the types of organizations under scrutiny.

3.D. This is nothing but a sweetheart deal for the police officers and the police union that should be corrected thru contract negotiations. If the City of Naperville can not or will not clean up it's own act then maybe the State of Illinois will have to take action like what is happening in many other states to pass laws making these sweetheart deals illegal under state law. Yes, the police union can be beat at it's own game. This sweetheart deal is NOT a good deal for the Citizens of Naperville. This sweetheart deal is NOT a good deal for the charities.

4. I'm glad you don't begrudge the "police officers who have to work", because none of them have to work. They WANT to work these events. They compete with each other to get as many hours as they can. There simply is no "having to work". These police officers want these hours and the senior officers gobble it up so fast there is nothing left for the junior officers. You volunteer your time which is commendable. Thousands of others in this community volunteer their time and talent to make our community a better place. We see contractors and builders and construction workers volunteer their time to build and remodel homes for people who are less fortunate and that is what they do for a living, so yes that is what they do and they are doing it for free. Doctors and lawyers and accountants work at community clinics to provided pro bono medical, legal, and financial services to the elderly and the poor who can not afford. So they are also giving away what they normally do for a living. There are hundreds of other examples of other occupations and professions, crafts and trades who have figured out how to give back to their community. All except, it seems, the Naperville Police Department. There are no laws that prevent the Naperville Police Officers from coming back off duty and volunteering to work these events out of the goodness of their heart. There are only two reasons why these officers choose not to do this. The first is they choose not to when the alternative is to collect overtime. The second is union work rules which are theirs to change at will. When one looks at the tens of thousands of community hours volunteered at our community events across all the types of occupations and talents and then when one sees that not one hour of police time is given back to our community it speaks volumes about the integrity of the Naperville Police Department and it's motto... "To Serve and Protect". With all of the many thousands of dollars the citizens of Naperville spend each year on police education maybe next year we can spend a few dollars and educate our police officers on what the concept of service really means.

Anonymous,

A few responses to your post directed to me:

1. I never said, or implied overtime is a bottomless pit. I said, according to a police officer posting on these blogs from another community, overtime is negotiated into police contracts by their union. It is obvious to me the police budget is managed, so on what basis do you claim the NPD payroll, and overtime is not managed? BTW, I own a business, with many years of people, and money management experience, so you are wrong again. Another one of your baseless assertion. I haven't gone out of business yet.

2. Since when is it not the priority of City Council to oversee the police department including overall staffing, and budgeting? I've seen the council discuss, and vote on these issues. What qualifies you to be play police chief to say how many police officers, and hours are needed for these special events?

3A. I do not see how paying for outside private security as you describe is prudent, or beneficial to the city, residents, and attendees. I trust our trained, well-qualified police to do the job much more than paid private security. Sometimes you get what you pay for.

3B. Do you really condone turning police protection, and public safety on our public streets and sidewalks over to paid private security companies who employ who-knows-who? I definitely don't!!! They just be paid too. I like to see our NPD in charge, and compensated for their work. I agree these events are good for the city, and I support them.

3C. You must not be aware that charity events have costs associated with them. Non-profit organizations have expenses. No sham.

3D. Let's agree to disagree about what is good or bad about the current process. I just don't see it your way.

4. There are all kinds of people in front, and behind the scenes to make these special events run smoothly, and safely. Of course we love to see the dollars raised for charities from the proceeds, and the dollars are many. People who have the time, and will to volunteer should do so. I believe paid police protection by the NPD is a good thing. I don't support using paid private security instead. Our police officers serve and protect our community 24/7/365. Special events are no exception, except we need them even more.

Moderator Jim to Southwest: You seem like a sharp guy....but can't we get off this constant back and forth bickering over police OT and move on to something else. It's starting to get old. And this isn't aimed just at you...there's way too much bickering over this issue with everybody.

Sorry Jim,

I thought that was the topic of this thread.

Moderator Jim to Southwest: No, you're right....keep firing away. My apologies.

SNT,

It seems that you are almost as stubborn as Joe. I think everyone is trying to bring costs down. No one hates the police department or the police.

If you think only police can do the job, why don't you think of the possibility of hiring police from other towns to provide security at our festivals for one third the price. Some private security companies are staffed only by sworn Illinios Police Officers that work in the cities, counties and state.

While many bars can get an off duty policeman to work for 10 bucks cash under the table, these police security companies are much more professional and get you cops over the table for 15-25 bucks with their taxes fully paid. They come with Workmen's Compensation and Liability! What more can one ask for?

They were trained in the same Police Academies as the Naperville Police.

I think we need to help Napervillians afford their food and gas right now by reducing taxes. Reducing Police OT by 2/3rds right now can help Napervillians makes ends meet.

Why would you object to this simple remedy SWT?

I think you should try to open you mind just a touch and stop being so stubborn and unreasonable.

Maybe you are a very wealthy businessman that can afford high taxes. Warren Buffett is too, and he has asked Bush to raise taxes on the wealthiest of businessmen like yourself!

Has it occurred to you that maybe most Napergatians are middle class folks who are simply upset because they like Naperville and do not want to move to Plainfied!?!

Do you realize how many Napervillians have moved to Plainfied in the last 5 years due to affordability reasons.? I personally know about 10 neighbors, friends and businessmen who moved to Plainfield because Naperville is no longer affordable to the middle class in the last 5 years.

I think you should stop being so insensitive! I can not beleive as a businessman you would be willing to pay $75 dollars per hour to employees when you can get them for $25 dollars. If you did, you and I know the competition would have buried you and ran you out of business.

Obviously, you don't pay 75 when you can get away with 25 for equivalent help. But you want the City of Naperville to act in an irresponsible way while you conduct your business in a responsible way!

I am not sure you understand or comprehend what you are saying on this Police OT thread. It just seems you are arguing for the sake of arguing. Nothing you say really makes any sense from a good management point of view.

Cities raise taxes to afford waste such as police OT. Businesses go out of business when they waste money on unnecessary OT.

The only check on City is the taxpayer. You should be checking just like Anonymous and the rest of us to make sure City Officials don't put the screws to us!

Thanks!

Trevor,

No one blogging here, including you and I, has all the accurate numbers that pertain to all aspects of this issue, so any arguments we might engage in regarding financial aspects, man hour aspects, or the impact outsourcing might have on this issue are mere speculation.

We have elected officials who we have entrusted to oversee these issues. Unlike many of the conspiracy theorists expressing their views on these blogs, I do not believe the majority of our city council members are going to "put the screws to us" whether you or I check on this issue or not.

The NPD is working to reduce overtime, as discussed at a city council meeting.

I believe our form of city government is a good one. Our elected officials make informed decisions, and are entrusted to advocate on our behalf. One or two rogue city council members can not impose their will upon the decisions of our other elected officials on the council, so I am confident the interests of the city, and the interests of residents will be well served by the majority of our current council members.

I'm all for open expression of various viewpoints, but ultimately I believe in the rule of law, and the validity of our local system of government.

in regards to the police have an ordinance not allowing them to direct traffic at intersections. This statement is a perfect example of someone making a statement that is completely false. There is no ordinance for that and the reason for the stop signs is so when the power is out, the police are usually extremly busy handling calls and the stop signs are there so the cops are not all directing traffic (duh). The stop signs do the job. When you make statements like that you are talking like a napergatian, no facts, just your beliefs.

Another good question about overtime is why are there paramedics at the city council meetings on overtime? Are the city council members having serious medical problems during there busy meetings? Is this not an example of special treatment the city council is enjoying at the tax payers expense?

SNT,

I mostly agree with Trevor.

I think he provided a logical solution to provide police at affordable rates who are not making 75 dollars an hour in OT and who are not also only security guards...but off duty policemen from other towns.

Our elected officials can not always be trusted. Our elected officials also led us into a bad and costly war with Iraq.

Our elected local officials led us into the Napergate Battles with a majority vote.

Our local elected officials were caught in the past taking contributions from the Brestal Law Firm and rubber stamping his projects...yes, no one likes to hear about the guy who caught them with their hands in the cookie jar so let me try not to mention him....but he did catch them.

You really do come on as very arrogant in your arguments....like it has to be the way it is......like nothing could possibly be wrong....like our City Officials could never be corrupted or influenced by wrong elements.

While I am against any OT that can be avioded like most bloggers, I was extremely perturbed regarding the money going from the culutural to the charity to police OT. That was really beyond all acceptable standards.

Why SWT are you not willing to hire 25 dollar police officers from other towns who would not be on OT, but who would be sworn and qualified for one-third the price?

This would give $66,667 dollars more to the poor, needy and abused. That was the purpose of these charity funds....not to enrich or heip the NPD get OT.

Other OT elimination would really make taxes less burdensome for the middle class Napergatians who are on here in large numbers mostly because as Trevor said, they want to remain in Naperville...they want to afford Naperville. That really is their agenda....it is not about bashing police....it may be simply about survival!!!

Trevor, why do you skip over the fact that Naperville is reimbursed for the costs at the various fests? Would it be because it makes your whole argument moot?

SWT,

It is easy to attempt to dismiss anyone you disagree with as a "consiracy theorists", but then you do like to put labels on everyone who disagrees with you. Fact is you have no facts to back you up when you make a wild accusation like that so you really are putting yourself in the same boat you created for everyone else you disagreed with. Interesting that you would point your own finger at yourself; but go ahead, be my guest!

One of the dilemmas we face with our current form of city manager government is that the chain of command flows up from the police officer thru the command structure to the police chief to the city manager to the city council.

The city council isn't supposed to get involved with "micromanaging" the city departments and staff, that is what the city manager is supposed to do. If the city council micromanages too much then the staff starts crying like babies. Yet the city council themselves have to answer to the citizens so they really do have a need to know and understand what is actually going on at the department level.

The city council are elected positions and the city manager works for them under an employment contract most of the time. We can not fire the city manager and the city manager does not report to the citizens. Nor does the police chief report to the city council, he reports to the city manager. Only the city manager can fire the police chief. As Naperville has grown as a city in recent years the whole concept of at-large council members has grown less relevant. Truthfully, Naperville crossed the point several years ago when it should have converted from at-large to wards and alderman. Expect this question to gain momentum in the near future.

The city council was within their rights to demand the police overtime budget be reduced. All of the discussion about a reduction of 5% isn't worth all of these keystrokes. The Naperville Police Officers should be paid a living wage by which they can maintain a decent standard of living. On a normal, routine basis every officer should be working a 40 hour work week. Will there be some overtime? Absolutely. Is it out of control. In my opinion, absolutely.

We can argue over pennies here and there if you feel we must. However, the fact remains that we know how many sworn officers are in the department. We know how much money is being spent on overtime. We have a reasonable understanding of the salary range. Doing the math over and over and over clearly indicates that on average every Naperville Police officer is getting 6 hours of overtime every week of the year. Now we also know that the senior officers gobble up the available overtime first so as in the example provided by the Naperville Sun the officer who earned the most money in overtime knocked down $109,971 last year of which $25,964 was in overtime. Doing the math this high end seniority officer had a base salary of $84,007 or an hourly rate of $40.39 and an overtime rate of $60.59 per hour... not to far off the $54 per hour that has been used simply as an AVERAGE. Regardless, $25,964 in total overtime divided by $60.59 per hour overtime rate equals 428 hours of overtime. 428 hours divided by 52 weeks equals an average of 8 1/4 hours of overtime every single week of the year by this officer.

What is most likely since averages only tell part of the picture is that an officer with this much seniority is probably getting at least 4 weeks of vacation per year. So if we divide 428 hours of overtime by 48 actual work weeks last year we find that the weekly average goes up to almost 9 hours of overtime for every week that he was on duty. That means he is getting less than 1 full day off per week on average. Now again since we are talking about averages it is very likely and we would need to dig into the payroll records to confirm this, but I would be willing to speculate that there are some rich and lean periods for overtime during the year. I'm also willing to speculate that the payroll records will support a theory that this officer is working during some periods of the year, back-to-back seven day work weeks without any days off for quite an extended period of time.

No time off for weeks at a time. I for one would like to know if, in fact, this theory is true. If it is I, for one, am very concerned that someone who has not had adequate rest for an extended period of time is carrying a loaded firearm and allowed to drive a vehicle on city streets at a high rate of speed. Fatigue causes accidents. Fatigue causes mistakes. Fatigue causes poor judgement. All of these factors add up to what could be a potentially deadly situation for the officer or someone who comes into contact with such an officer, whether it be an innocent citizen driving down the street or someone who may possibly have violated a law.

If my theory is correct and if it is I'm also willing to speculate that there are quite a few other senior officers in exactly the same situation who are working extended periods of time without a day off. The million dollar question right now is which officer holds the record work working the most continuos days without a day off? The second million dollar question is what member of management permitted this?

This is where the rubber hits the highway. It is unconscionable for the police command, the police chief, the city manager, the city attorney, the city human resource, the city council and a few other people to permit a work environment where police officers or any other city staff work for extended periods of time with no days off. It is unhealthy. It is unsafe. In the long run it will cause more problems than it will solve even if it relates to basic staffing.

If the city doesn't have a cap on overtime then shame on them. Even truck drivers have a restriction on the number of hours they can work at a stretch. And both truck drivers and police officers both need to drive down our city streets.

There is nothing wrong with saying to an officer hey you are maxxed out for the week. Go home. Get some rest. Spend some time with your family. Any employer, the City of Naperville included simply will never be a great place to work if it has a culture that permits and possibly encourages employees to become a workaholic. Good employees and good employers understand there must be a balance between work and the rest of our lives and police officers who are working this much overtime simply do not have a good balance.

The sad truth about all of this is that rather than maintaining an $84,000 per year standard of living a lot of these officers got sucked into the overtime trap and now they are used to living off an income of around $100,000. Cutting off all of their overtime may be a difficult adjustment for them, but times are tough and they need to tighten their belts just like everyone else.

The bottom line is the city of naperville is not using the best tools and techniques at it's disposal if it is allowing police overtime to grow to $3.3 million dollars a year. The city council needs to go back to basics and not think of this in terms of total cost, but rather think of this in terms of real work and real hours and setting a goal of every officer putting in a 40 hour work week on average. Step one should be to offer comp time in lieu of overtime whenever and where ever possible. Overtime accrued from September thru May for example could then be taken as comp time during summer months when all the school resource officers are looking for something to do or during spring break, christmas holiday, teacher institute days, etc. Something tells me that a real close scrutiny of how and where the school resource officers work and what they are doing during days when school is not in session during the school year would reveal a whole new set of problems for us to discuss.

The city council should also put their foot down and say no police officer is allowed to rack up more than 4 hours of overtime per week and no more than 8 hours of overtime per month. Let's go back to the math... 198 police officers times 8 hours OT per month times 12 months times $54.00 per hour. Yes, we are still at just over $1 million dollars a year for overtime. But guess what? We can and should save over $2 million dollars per year. Reducing the police overtime budget by 2/3's is something that is realistic and beneficial to the citizens of naperville and the city council should be proud if they actually set and accomplish such a goal.

Our officers need time off and they need to get away from the job. They should be spending time with their friends, family, neighbors, hobbies, etc, etc. If that means the city of naperville is understaffed then the police chief, city manager, and city council should sit down and figure out a better long-term solution other than pounding our officers week after week after week with overtime.

It is all well and good to use numbers for your arguments, but this is also an emotional issue. If your kid gets his head kicked in by a group of thugs, do you want the NPD detective to stop looking after 5pm, to save OT? And would you prefer that detective not go to court once those responsible are caught, to save OT? The badge brings respect, much more than a security t-shirt that some rent-a-cop would wear at a festival. Police need a presence at city events. As for the school officers, during the summer they ride bikes downtown, they know the kids, the kids know them. School officers are only partially paid by the districts, so they are not salary-free in the summer. NPD does a great job for Naperville.

Anonymous (DF?),

By Anonymous on May 6, 2008 10:48 PM

"The city council are elected positions and the city manager works for them under an employment contract most of the time. We can not fire the city manager and the city manager does not report to the citizens."

When you say "We" at the start of your second sentence, if you are referring to city council, it is my recollection that Burchard's contract said one of the ways his contract could be terminated was by council vote.

I found other holes in your comments, but I don't have time to respond to them all.

There are lots of organizations that work 24/7/365 besides the police. We could say the same about the fire department fighting fires, yet they seem to know when to give their officers a break and sent them home for rest.

Ok, let's take your example of a police officer working a case. How long does he go after the thug? 2 hours, 4 hours, 8 hours, 16 hours, 48 hours? When does anyone draw the line? At what point does the police officer became a hazard to themselves and others due to nothing more to sleep deprivation? Ok, lets say we let the officer work 8 hours on regular shift and then another 12 hours on OT for a total of 20 hours on duty. Now let's suggest the officer goes to a commander and says "I'm beat, I'm going home". Now what does the commander say? Sorry, keep working? Go, home and come back in 8 hours and get back on it? Hand your case off to Officer X?

Lots of potentials scenarios besides these three. First example... well ok how long do we allow commanders to command officers to work without a break? If the police department doesn't have standards on this I would suggest the police department is a pretty scary place to work. In the second example we let the case grow cold until the officer returns to duty.. is this the best way to pursue criminals and solve crimes? In the third example the officer passes the case off to another officer. What I simply maintain is that if a case can be passed off after 12 hours or any amount of overtime for that matter it can also be passed off at the end of a shift. If the police department had a "Zero Overtime" mandate it would have no other choice than to pass the case off at the end of a shift. Since we don't currently have such a mandate (and probably should) we likely have allowed the police officers to develop a culture of where they "OWN" a case and are allowed to "work" the case with the whatever it takes mentality.

In this day and age I would hope that the Naperville Police department operates like a team with all members working together to help solve crimes. In a team environment everyone is helping everyone else succeed and watching each others back. The team becomes more important than I so individual officers contribute, but the team doesn't fail because of one person who could have an accident, get sick, etc etc.

The Naperville Police Department could develop a culture by which there is very little overtime without any reduction of staff, any increase in crime. They will not change their existing culture with their current attitudes and policies. In the end it isn't up to the police department. It is up to the city council since they set policy and it will be the vision of the city council on how the police department conducts their business in the future.

As for the school officers we all know they are not salary free. That was never implied or suggested. Every day of the year that school is not in session all of the school officers are available to help staff the regular roster. If for example there is a teacher institute day and we have 10 school officers with nothing to do for one day because the school is closed they can be scheduled to replace 10 other officers who have accrued overtime by giving the other officers comp time off. That way the school officers are being productive, the other officers get their comp time, and the city saves a lot of overtime expense. The school officers should be providing thousands of hours of comp time during the summer months alone.

"Police need a presence at city events."? Well, the way that is worded I would agree that the police NEED a presence so they can collect their overtime. Does the event need them? Do citizens need them? I don't think there is a good consensus on that. I don't believe the average person goes to any event expecting to see police officers. We tend to go to events like Ribfest with other things in mind. I also do not believe the average person thinks along the lines of... "you know what, I went to Ribfest last year and there just were not enough police officers present so I'm not going to attend this year". The average person simply does not think like this.

We don't want to live in a police state and we don't need to live in a police state. Should events have security? Yes. Should events have some police present? Yes. How many officers should be present? The city council needs to dig into this because there is disagreement on what constitutes adequate staffing. Should the police be on regular shift or overtime? The city council needs to dig into this because there is disagreement on whether overtime should be the only way to provide police at city events. Should the city of naperville bill the event for the cost of police? The city council should dig into this because there is disagreement as to whether the police should be paid regular or overtime pay to start with and second whether or not certain tax money should be moved from one pocket to another related to payroll cost and third if the city of naperville should even be billing since the cost of government is part of all the taxes we pay and part of all the taxes the city collects and a lot of these city wide events pay a lot in special fees and permits for their events plus they collect huge sums of sales tax during the event which it could be argued goes back into the greater good just like sales tax collected from any other merchant.

Moderator Jim to Anonymous: The flaw in your argument is that many police cases cannot simply be handed off, especially complex investigations where the same detectives have to stick with the case. After all, public safety is at stake.

Moderator Jim,

Anonymous should be complemented and commended for thinking out of the box. He makes many good points...comes up with great theories.

I think the NPD is stuck in a rut of doing business as usual. No one is saying all OT can be eliminated. But I am confident 2 million of this 3 million OT can easily be eliminated.

The School Cops who only work about 186 days per year can be used to comp officers with time off to compensate instead of OT which is really unaffordable to most Naperville Citizens in these rough economic times.

The School Cops were never needed on Chicago Ave as was demonstrated on New Years Eve. Plus most school age kids have curfew and should not be on Chicago Ave. after midnight. The School Cops don't need to identify them because they are not there from my observations. If they are seen there the regular cops can ask them to go home or write them a warning. Kids violating curfew just are not going to be on Chicago Ave. whether there are two cops or 12 cops. When in violation, they are fearful of the shadow of a cops. These kids in violation of curfew are usually found in parks making out and not on Chicago Ave. making out. Just ask the Park District. They caught my son and all his teenage friends and asked me to come get him. I did! I thought the Park District Police were very professional. They could have written all kinds of tickets, made arrests that could have kept them on OT and sent them to court for further OT. They just keep things simple unlike the NPD who seem to write a ticket for anything which will get them OT after their shift is over and more OT in court.

If a kid learns a lesson just from a confrontation with a police officer, what is the point for all these court appearances. Every NPD officer knows any case they put through the court system means OT not once but many many times. The court system gives many many continuances before they attempt to resolve any cases...some come from judges who are to far behind or sometimes not in the mood to hear a case...or sometimes just plain lazy. The Napergate Korbel case may have set a record with 9 continuances but most cases seem to have 3-6 continuances in our court system. This is not the fault of the NPD. It is the fault of the Dupage Judicial System but I believe the NPD takes advantage of these continuances while racking up all this OT.

As the largest City in Dugape, the City Council of Naperville should ask to meet with the Chief Judge about the incompetence there resulting in cases being continued for months and sometimes years like the Korbel Champagne Sting Case. This is a real killer on police OT and thus a real killer on our taxes.

Maryann has a right to complain about her real estate tax bill going from 8400 to 9100 in one year most being caused by the huge percentate increase in the City of Naperville. Yes, I confirmed we had over a 15% increase in the City of Naperville portion of our tax bill excluding the pension costs. In one year...that really is atrocious and has not been explained by our City Officials or either of our local newspapers....why?

While some people perceive it as the Napergate Movement trying to push this City Council out of their seats in the next election, I perceive it as a tax revolt by the taxpayers to push City Council out of their seats. Maybe it is a combination of both which would make the revolt even more powerful.

When people are pinched in the wallet and have to cancel their annual vacations, people will have time to think and act.

The Napergatians will not have trouble rallying the pinched taxpayers to their side in the next election. It will be a relatively easy task.

Host Ted once said the City Council made it too easy for the Napergate Man in the old days because they opened holes with their credibility that he implied the "Titanic" could go through.

I think this time they are opening holes that are just as large by upsetting taxpayers with unnecessary taxes resulting from police OT and incompetence even on Regular Pay. I am sure other departments could be wasteful too, but no one has researched those yet. Let us hope the City Manager and City Council are looking at those depts. before the Sun opens new threads and the bloggers start looking at them.

It is time for action by our City Manager, City Council, and City Heads. The Naperville Sun and Daily Herald really must do a better job of holding our Officials accountable.

I agree with what Joe said on the Napergate Thread. These blog sites do not really compare in power with the Naperville Sun print edition or the old Napergate ads. They are really in their infancy!

I think we may be 5-10 years away for these blogs to rival the power of INK. I could be wrong. However, I do remember City Officials being very sensitive to those Napergate ads and occassionally responding to them. I don't see any respone here. The closest we got is Councilman Bob saying hi and disappearing. It appeared to me he was hushed up by the legal dept as soon as he showed his face. He seemed interested in participating.

Maybe the City of Naperville feels these blogs sites have the potential to be very powerful and are ignoring them in the hopes of killing them. If that is the case Sun Officials should unleash the print edition on them and let them know there is no place to hide....they must be held accountable for all waste and especially waste resulting in unnecessary OVERTIME!

Jim,

I don't really think that is a flaw in my argument, rather a point in favor of better police teamwork as I stat