NPD overtime uproar: Part II

Moderator Jim,

You editorial was way too soft as usual.

You have not addressed why we need 12 cops on Chicago Ave to handle 4 bars with 500-1000 patrons and not a single cop in the NW Plaza in Naperville to handle 4 liquor establishments with also 500-1000 partons.

Since we don't need any cops in the NW Plaza, it should follow we don't need any cops stationed on Chicago Ave.

Since we really don't need all these cops on Chicago Ave. we are wasting money be it regular time or overtime funds on cops.

A couple of cop cars circulating the downtown area is fine. No need to station all these cops for show and tell at taxpayer expense!

Like anyone else I would expect that there is always going to be some overtime associated with police work. I do not however think it is an unreasonable expectation that those entrusted with managing the police payroll and approving overtime be operate within policies that will prevent waste and abuse.

That was until I received the current May-June 2008 issue of Bridges in the mail today from the City of Naperville. After reading the front page article on how the city allocates SECA funds all I can ask is WHAT IN THE HELL IS GOING ON?

Let me see if I've got this straight:
1. The city collects a city wide !% food tax
2. The city decides which charities are to benefit by receiving proceeds from this tax.
3. The city awarded the Exchange Club and Jaycees $100,000 for police and fire protection at the Ribfest and Last Fling.
4. Then the city charges the Exchange Club and Jaycees for the overtime cost of police and fire protection.
5. The overtime is charged against the police department budget but the money is deposited into the general fund. And in the same breath the city council is telling the police chief to reduce overtime expense by 5%.

THERE ARE TWO ASPECTS OF THIS TRANSACTION THAT I FIND PERSONALLY DISTURBING. I don't know if they are illegal, but they sure look suspicious.

First, the city collects a SECA tax. The same people who get to vote to decide on what will be taxed and at what rate then get to vote at a later date who will get the proceeds of that tax. In this case the city collected $100,000 in tax then "gave" it to the Exchange Club and the Jaycees and then turned around and billed them for the same money they just gave them. The net effect is that the city council laundered $100,000 from a special tax thru these non-profit organizations into the general fund. Why in the world are all these transactions necessary? Why can't the tax pay for the police cost directly without all the need for the accounting and billing?

Second, the city gave the Exchange Club and the Jaycees $100,000. Ribfest is a 4 day event. Last Fling is a 3 day event. 7 days total. I believe I read in a Naperville Sun that police overtime costs were about $54.00 per hour. Let's see... $100,000 divided by $54.00 equals 1,852 manhours of overtime. Ok, then 1,851 manhours divided by 7 days of work equals 265 hours worked each day of the event. That follows that 265 hours divided by 8 hours in a shift equals 33 police and firemen working every single day of Ribfest and Last Fling. Are you kidding me 33 police and firemen? Yes, these are large events. But putting this into perspective the normal sworn officers on duty for all of Naperville... that is 24 hours a day, 7 days a week is somewhere between 36 and 38. And for one event in a city park downtown we need 33?

It is also interesting to note that the City of Naperville dictates how many officers are needed for these events. Call me a skeptic, but I'm just willing to place an extemely high wager that the police union is pretty highly involved in helping decide these staffing numbers. There is no doubt we need additional police and fire services for special events, but 33?

There is a big difference between responsible staffing levels and sucking the hind tit. Yeah, the big sucking sound you are hearing right now is coming from 1350 Aurora Avenue. It's the sound of knowing you've just gotten busted with your hand in the cookie jar.

The problem is...from a cognitive standpoint, people tend to always remember the 1 bad time rather than all wonderful times. Heck just think of childhood memories, classroom experiences, even people you have dated! :-) This is in general for any memory & certainly would be the case with officers unfortunately, due to the nature of their job. And heck, lets be honest, for many people when they see an officer it is because they have not be behaving in a socially appropriate manner, so it is similar to a parent or teacher telling you how bad you were & you may get punished. All those feelings return. People will act just like they did when they were kids...ha! Lets just escape & walk in the other room when mom or dad is giving us a talking to...now I walk away & get a hot dog instead! HA! See this is our fault...they did it as kids & got away with it at home & school & now they are still throwing temper tantrums as adults! :-) And...kids in the back seats are learning attitudes & how to behavior with officers from their parents who acting inappropriately! Ugh!

You don't tend to hear people brag about how wonderful the officers are when your having a nice lunch or at a bar relaxing. :-) People will surely add their poor experience when they hear another mentioned one, but many just don't start off "I gotta tell you about this wonderful police officer." As a result, people have an impression of the negative more than the positive. It is no different than other jobs, unless you are outstanding & get a big reward, people tend to remember the best & worst & the ones in between, that do a great job routinely, just do not get added in the memory calculator. Perhaps that is what we should do...have a place where people can show their appreciation to officers more routinely. I'm not talking about huge life saving events where officers do get yearly recognition, but those that still did amazing jobs for us each day. Perhaps if they were rewarded, even with a simple 'thank you' letter more rountinely, it would help with the stress of those people in the community who totally disrespect them. If it also was a place where community members could view they may have a very different impression. How many times are parents thanked by kids (other than mothers & father's day) for the day in & day out things they have done? How about Teachers...? Instead you hear "It's not fair"..."Susie's mom lets her..." ETC! No different...unfortunately!

Perhaps we should get something put together for the week of May 15th, National Police Memorial Day & Police Week, so the community members can thank officers in even a very simple way (letter etc) who have helped in wonderful ways. Wouldn't it be a lovely value to teach children...to honor each year the men & women who keep all of us safe!

Moderator Jim to Stuart: Had to delete your last comment, Stuart. The "driving drunk" reference was overboard....something of that nature needs corroboration. Sorry.

Moderator Jim,

I learned that information from your blog site on Furstenau's Threads. It was posted over and over again and was allowed to be posted albeit not by you, but by Host Ted.

I guess you and Host Ted have two different standards when Moderating or Hosting whichever it may be...

I will see if I can find my post and delete the part about driving drunk. I have no problem obeying all rules as long as I know what they are.

Most importantly, thanks for letting me know where I went astray so I can repair and hopefully with your permission repost!

Moderator Jim to Stuart: No problem...just fix and repost. Thanks.

Moderator Jim,

Your editorial also sidestepped discriminatory practices of the NPD which are disguised as discretion which outraged your bloggers both on the Napergate and Police OT threads.

You seemed to experience how it all worked when you got pulled over and pulled out your Uncle's NYPD Detective Card.

Many of us don't have such a card and are given the most ruthless treatment imaginable as you were, before you pulled out your card that stopped the unpleasant behavior of the cop towards yourself and family.

Bottom line, your editorial woud have received much more respect from your readers and bloggers if you had called for the end of Naperville Police discrimination under the cover and disguise of discretion.

It would have also been nice if you called for the end of Professioanl Courtesy which allows Naperville Police to speed and committ other traffic violations while possibly endangering young children in our neighborhoods!

Stuart, one alleged case of discriminatory discretion does not make it rampant throughout the department. There is nothing to call an end to.

Reposted from the Napergate thread as a clarification due to the crossover between police OT and Napergate from Jim Lynch's original blog post...

Moderator Jim to A&D: Good point, A&D. I may have opened up a hornet's nest here without thinking since police OT and Napergate seem to be intertwined. So...after careful consideration I will allow Napergatians to introduce issues on this new police OT thread. But it has be on this thread only i.e. the one marked "OT Part II" and, of course, you're free to comment on the Napergate thread as well. The only thing I ask is that the Napergatians keep things under control by staying on point with the overtime issue. Please do not go off on other Napergatian tangents...like the tollway etc. etc. Those topics should - and must - be confined to the Napergate thread. Thanks in advance for everyone's cooperation.

Mr. Jim Lynch,

Thanks for allowing Napergatians to come back on the Main Page and offer their thoughts.

What "By Anonymous on April 26, 2008 2:59 PM" did in his post is the same thing the Napergate Man used to do in his Napergate Series of ads. The first thing that came to mind was could this be the Napergate Man posting anonymously?

But back on subject. That was really a remarkable post.

Again the taxpayers are socked and soaked! We are charged 1% for sales tax, of which $100,000 is donated to the Jaycess and Exchange Club, which ends up for police overtime while we believed our money is being donated to CHARITY!

Of course this is a Napergate Issue. Napergate means cover-up and here we see a cover-up of sorts. Read the below sentences from anonymous:

"The net effect is that the city council laundered $100,000 from a special tax thru these non-profit organizations into the general fund. Why in the world are all these transactions necessary? Why can't the tax pay for the police cost directly without all the need for the accounting and billing?"

Anonymous hit is right on the nail. He discovered a cover-up. How dare City Officials take our money in claims of donating it for charity and use it for police overtime.

My God this is a Charity Event. The citizens are donating to charity and the NPD is taking all the money in OT PAY! Unbelievable!!!

Here is a perfect example where police officers should step up and donate their services to CHARITY. How dare they take our charitiable donations for their overtime pay.

I hope the Napergatian Party ousts the Establishment Party in the next election and finally restores law and order to this lost town.

PS. I am a first time poster, Mr. Lynch, so if anyone has already taken my first name which use to be very common, I am willing to change it for the sake of identification on this blog site. Thank you for allowing me to post.

By One Who Values You! on April 26, 2008 5:15 PM
The problem is...from a cognitive standpoint, people tend to always remember the 1 bad time rather than all wonderful times. Heck just think of childhood memories, classroom experiences, even people you have dated! :-) This is in general for any memory & certainly would be the case with officers unfortunately, due to the nature of their job.

====================================================================

If you do your police work right, the citizens will respect you and like you. If you do it in a discriminatory manner with favoritism, the citizens will disrespect you and dislike you whether it is OT or not OT.

It is well known the Napergate Man did police work. As has been reported on other threads, today, he confiscated over 2000 fraudulent IDs from minors over a decade or two. I have never heard of one person complain he was bad because of this POLICE WORK he did. In fact he seemed to be admired except for a small group who roam these threads like lost souls attacking him and his supporters.

If the NPD did their job without bias and favoritism, they would be respected in this town. If they donated some of their services they would be respected in this town just like the Napergate Man is highly respected.

It is horrfic and horrifying that we find out today that $100,000 of money the citizens/taxpayers were forced to donate to chartiy from a 1% sales tax ended up in Police OT. And the NPD wants our respect! How laughable!

Mr Lynch, while I appreciate the Suns investigation, how come you have not determined what the actually figures. It has been reported that the Ribfest/Lastfling are paid by the originzations and the City in their great accounting, cant figure out how to put that money back into the police funds. The actually amount costing tax payers is probably alot less than what you are reporting. Are you looking into that part of the story?

Thanks and keep up the good work.

ModeratorJim to Anonymous: That's a very salient point regarding the festivals and their reimbursements etc. We'll look into that. Thanks.

Regarding "By Jim Lynch, moderator on April 26, 2008 6:53 PM" your post giving Napergatians a chance to post again, I just want to say if these 5 disgruntled individuals are so disturbed when they hear about the Napergate Man, the Napergatians, or the Napergate Party, why could they just not skip over the posts that bother them.

Many of us love to read these Napergate oriented posts.

Your posts are not required reading like in a grade school. They are optional reading.

With hundreds, maybe soon to be thousands of posts per day on your blog site, why can't this disgruntled group of 5 just skip over the posts they don't like. After reading Joe and Ken twice each, I have skipped over all their posts. I never complained to you, Mr. Lynch about them. I just chose not to read their repetitive nonsensical ignorant posts as my time is precious.

This is a country of free speech.

If residents think the Napergatians make no sense, I suspect a well educated community like Naperville would see right through their nonsense.

I suspect this tiny group of rebels feels the Napergatains are making a little too much sense so they have been on a mission to discredit them at any opportunity possible.

If you study your threads carefully these 5 individuals are everywhere on all your threads trying to moderate and host them instead of simply being participants like the rest of us.

I congratulate you Mr. Lynch for the decision you made today. It showed me you finally saw through all the nonsense. It showed you were going to regain control of your own Blog Site! It is yours! Not theirs!

The Naperatians were never trying to control your blog site. They were just looking for ONE SINGLE THREAD to blog on in a free and open manner on your Main Page.

When they were denied that, they were content to blog on an old archived thread making it the most interesting and successful thread in the history of your Blog Site with the postings there soon to exceed the 1000 mark!

Guess who chased and followed after them there on the Napergate Thread, Mr. Lynch! This group of 5! What does that tell you about what is going on here, right on Mr. Lynch's Blog Site! It seems very clear to me and it seems to finally be very clear to you as you have finally seen through all this manipulation. Kudos to you Mr. Lynch for finally seeing the light and the truth. Keep up the excellent work!

You are doing a remarkable job. Free unhindered expression is what will propel your blog site to unbelievable highs!!!

There is no need to concentrate your efforts on giving 5 souless individuals their daily highs! It is time they stopped being so cheap on themselves and bought a bottle of vodka and got high the old fashioned way before blogging ever existed!

You hit it on the head mr. lynch,you described a very casual use of a professional courtesy card. This has been covered by a past bloger. One firemen said 49 out 50 times he drove away after legitimate traffic stop. one officer refused him PC , and that surprised him.The budget,overtime,EXTREME PC,use of discretion,no working IAD,Double and triple dipping,residents afraid to contact IAD with complaints for fear of harrassment, several other problems which are on the horizon and will be discussed if you allow. Yes ,we are trying to bring DOJ/FBI. PLS do not pitch this . thank you SUN.

Congrats and kudos to Stuart,moya and mr. lynch. We all support the good cops, however in illinois we have proven court guilty verdicts from many jurisdiction involving criminal misconduct by peace officers/policemen and policewomen. I do not want to go to feds,to settle problems which should be handled locally.If you want to save $$$$ for taxpayers then help us with a forum.

All I can say to you, Moya, is yawn. You finally get the chance for meaningful debate on police overtime and all you can do is show the typical intolerance of a cult member.

The only thing about the cult members that disturbs me is the constant use of supposition as fact. A perfect example of this is shown above where cult members imply that the NPD is complicit in the charity tax scam. As it has already been stated that the NPD is forced to take the charge for reimbursed overtime, this does not even make sense. However, the napergatian cult will act like it is fact.

Speaking of acting like something is a fact, Moya, the napergate man was not doing police work. All liquor selling establishments are required by law to confiscate false IDs. He is doing what the law requires, nothing more, nothing less. If other stores or bars are proved to be ignoring this law, they should lose their liquor licenses. Either way, just because he did his job does not accord him the special privilege of driving around on a suspended license.

I am amazed at how many people here want to force the police to do their job and call it charity. How many of these same people would be willing to go into their job on their day off and work for free because someone else decides it is the charitable thing to do? And how would the citizens know when the cops were on the clock or just being charitable? What would the legal ramifications of a off duty uniformed cop on charity duty making arrests be? Better yet, what would the legal ramifications be of a city requiring its police force to work for free and calling it charity?

I think Jim put it just right in his commentary. Some of you are so blinded by your hate and contempt for the police that you cannot fairly asses the job they do, much less the issue of overtime.

First poster...

If you had 500-1000 patrons equally split (sure!) between the 4 establishments downtown that would be 125-250 per establishment. Now 12 officers divided by 4 is 3 per establishment. Of course you can do this by the total also but just to make it nice & neat that is 1 officer per 42-83 patrons who are INTOXICATED also! Ya, that seem like too many to me also! RIGHT! There should be more in my opinion! Unless of course you are going to give them a bunch of mega Tasers!

Now Anonymous...as usually you leave out a key logical element! You neglect to say how many people attend Ribfest at any particular hour. I will even let you go on not even critically thinking about the fact that it may not be evenly split, as anyone could figure out certain hours, like evening, would be even more crowded & need more than 33 & at other times even less. 38 for total Naperville may be fine for routine day & some hot events but at a big event where you have all these people condensed & many intoxicated, hot in the sun where tempers fly, heck just think of how some families get during the holidays & now you got all these people together. Do you even attend this event to see what goes on? Perhaps one of the officers can post how many on avg are at the ribfest at any given hour, how many are arrested etc.

I'd like to also know then what you think our State & Federal Govt does deciding how much tax & how to spend it each year? Heck, our school raises their tuition & then decides how to spend it. Businesses do it all the time. You are certainly welcome to decide on new representation in your govt if you do not agree with how they decide to spend it, but that is their job to do so! To say it is illegal? I just don't get it how you would not know this is done?

Please also be respectful with your language. It just makes you look even worse and who is going to respect your ideas then. There is no need to offend, you then do not look any better than the people you are complaining about.

To Moya...

The problem with your reply to me is that many do their job right but that people only remember the few times & generalize to all other police officers. They say "NPD" rather than the specific officers who are a problem. This is generalization & no different than someone having a few bad experiences with a man & generalizing to all males, with one Latino & generalizing to all Latinos or one teenager & generalizing to all teenagers.

If everyone skips over replies they do not like where is the communication which aids (or should if people are respectful) in working on a solution? That is like saying I'll ignore my kid or spouse if they are saying something I don't agree with etc. In fact, that is what you are complaining about...that others do not listen to you...well what do you expect if you do not listen to others.

By Ken on April 27, 2008 1:22 AM

Speaking of acting like something is a fact, Moya, the napergate man was not doing police work. All liquor selling establishments are required by law to confiscate false IDs. He is doing what the law requires, nothing more, nothing less. If other stores or bars are proved to be ignoring this law, they should lose their liquor licenses. Either way, just because he did his job does not accord him the special privilege of driving around on a suspended license.

Ken,
Yes, Ken, all liquor selling establishments are required by law to confiscate false IDs. But somehow the Napergate Man confiscates 200 a year while the average liquor licensee in Naperville confiscates 1 false ID every 3 years according to Dupage County Court Records provided from City of Naperville Police Records.

Can you explain why the Chief Dial and the NPD revoked the Napergate Man's license and let all the others slide with such poor performance? Could it be because they put electon posters in their windows supporting the Establishment Slate? How much Police OT money was spent in those 2 lengthy Napergate Kangaroo Trials that has never been accounted for? Never any answer from you City Folks!

You bury everything with each decesased City Official and blame the dead and never the living!!!

How convenient that you never answer any questions directly posed to you but leave it for the dead to ponder?!?!?

---------------------------------------------------------

Anonymous,

I loved your investigative reporting showing how our 1% cultural fund was used to indirectly subsidize POLICE OT while pretending to make a contribution to the Exchange Club or Jaycees. That was really sickening!

I wonder if that new 1.5% sales tax meant to help pay for the extremely subsidized parking downtown is also going to end up in Police OT?

Mr. Jim,

I just wanted to thank you for allowing us Napergatians to blog again without fear of slipping up and using that prohibited word of "Napergate." We are so use to using that word as it symbolizes so much to us, that I suspect many of us besides myself were not willing to risk banishment for an innocent slip-up while bloggin.

This Police OT issue is not new. It has been going on for years. We complained to City Officials during the Napergate Trials about this this police OT. They did not listen and apparently still are not listening!

Finally, after 177 years, you have given us residents a voice in your local newspaper. We appreciate that very much.

I think together with the Naperville Sun we can bring sanity to our City again. Without some help from the Naperville Sun or Napergate Ads, we are really fighting a losing battle.

But with help from the press, I think we can shame our public officials into shaping up. Let us hope it works!

Thanks again, Jim, for allowing us back on your Blog Site to speak our minds!

to "By One Who Values You",

The NPD is charged with enforcing ALL laws. There are times when NPD stop people for similar circumstances and some get arrested and some do not.

When a liqour store owner confiscates a fake ID he is de facto enforcing the law. The big difference here being the NPD allows him zero tolerance yet they allow themselves as much as they please. Plus the liquor store owner in being required to enforce the law on behalf of the NPD is actually increasing his own liability. If he or his employees make a mistake and illegally confiscate a valid ID they could potentially be subject to some type of legal action.

The biggest and most obvious fallacy with your thinking is that the NPD has been around for many, many decades. It has been allowed to develop a culture of us vs them. The us being the police officers and the them being everyone else. It is fundamentally wrong for the city council, the city manager, the police chief, or any supervisory police administrators to tolerate this kind of culture. The NPD do not "run" Naperville. The NPD are simply civil servants who serve at the pleasure of the citizens of Naperville. They are not entitled to anything more or less than any other citizens. Anyone with a pulse and lucid, cognitive function knows that this simply is not the case. The NPD is a poor example of proper and legal behavior on a daily basis. Everyone knows it and everyone sees it. The NPD is simply to visible to think they can escape the public eye. Maybe a few out-of-towners who don't know what to look for or where.

If you think there is a problem with too much OT in the NPD then wait until the Naperville Sun starts digging into all of the abuse that goes on in the NPD with officers who are supposed to be on duty and do nothing for hours. Yes, the citizens of Naperville are not stupid. We see a lot. We know where the NPD goes to hide. We see them there for hours doing nothing. We see two or NPD patrol cars pull up in those "out of the way" locations and do nothing more than shoot the breeze for hours at a stretch. We see the NPD congregate for meals and breaks in local establishments and we see how long you stay. We also see how much you pay for your food, in those cases when you are even charged. Hmm, doesn't the City of Naperville have pretty specific policies prohibiting city employees from accepting gifts?

If the NPD wants to restore citizen respect it should start with cleaning up its own act. First and foremost the NPD needs to change to the extent that they can become an exemplary role model... to each other, to other police departments, and to the citizens of Naperville. That means all Naperville Police Officers live by a personal code whereby they demand zero tolerance from themselves with compliance with all city policies and laws. Second, if there are bad apples within the NPD then they know better than anyone else who these people are and it up to them to weed them out. As long as the NPD allows any of these bad apples to remain, hiding behind their badge, hiding behind the cloak of blue silence, then the NPD has zero hope of restoring the confidence of the citizens of Naperville.

To:

"By Anonymous on April 27, 2008 10:25 AM"

RE: "When a liqour store owner confiscates a fake ID he is de facto enforcing the law. The big difference here being the NPD allows him zero tolerance yet they allow themselves as much as they please. Plus the liquor store owner in being required to enforce the law on behalf of the NPD is actually increasing his own liability. If he or his employees make a mistake and illegally confiscate a valid ID they could potentially be subject to some type of legal action."
=======

Is that the root of the whole issue w/ the Napergatians and the NPD?

Does this whole hate for the NPD stem from the belief that the liquor store owner is doing the NPD's job and there is built up resentment over the years from that? And as such.. they should be granted some 'professional courtesy' or be entitled to wide latitude in discretion?
...when they don't get it, they throw a hissy fit.

It sure sounds like this to me.

Let's get this clear: A retailer is not doing the police's job, they are doing their own job. That just comes with the territory (the responsibility) of selling certain goods that are regulated and that obligation is part of the "licensed to sell" package.

If you don't want the 'hassle' of that, then don't sell those goods (alcohol / tobacco).

By Anonymous on April 27, 2008 10:25 AM
to "By One Who Values You",

When a liqour store owner confiscates a fake ID he is de facto enforcing the law. The big difference here being the NPD allows him zero tolerance yet they allow themselves as much as they please. Plus the liquor store owner in being required to enforce the law on behalf of the NPD is actually increasing his own liability. If he or his employees make a mistake and illegally confiscate a valid ID they could potentially be subject to some type of legal action.

_______________________________________________________

Very good point Anonymous! Yes, they allow this liquor store owner Zero Tolerance but give themselves all the tolerance in the world to do as they please with discretion which ends up being DISCRIMINATION!

I bet if this liquor store owner extended Professional Courtesy to his teenage children they would hang him in City Square. See their hypocrisy my fellow bloggers!!!

Yet, if they catch their children speeding or driving intoxicated, I doubt they would do anything. Has any police officer ever ticketed his child in the City of Naperville! With certainty I could say never!

Much has been written on this liquor store owner this morning not only on this thread but other threads including the Napergate Threads.

Liquor Man Rick had 2 great posts on the Napergate Thread.

In it he documents how the Napergate Man confiscates over 85% of the Fake IDs in town, while the other 150 licensees confiscate less than 15% combined. This is shocking information that has continued unabated for over 25 years.

Why can't some of these OT cops on Chicago Ave be put in locations where they can monitor other liquor establishments that only confiscate 1 ID every 3 years. Why are they wasting all this OT police taxpayer funded money socializing on Chicag Ave in very large numbers?

It seems like each one of these retail liquor establishments has at least 100 minors buying booze on a consistent and repeated basis since no one confiscates their IDs. They just pick up the booze and return next weekend for more. Does Chief David Dial give a hoots?

Who is going to believe that minors only go to the Napergate Man's liquor stores which are on opposite sides of town. They go everywhere and probably least to his stores because he does have a reputation of confiscating fake IDs. One has to assume if 100 minors visit him per year despite his reputation, 500 minors must be visiting each of the others who don't have a vicious reputation for a "War aganinst Minors."

But as we can see our Naperville Police Dept. is not about enforcing the law. It is about keeping the corrupt and crony in power in order they get their fringe benefits which includes 3.15 million in annual OT combined with 75% pension when they retire in 25 years over the age of 50.

It must be nice! And the rest of us pay up the WAZOO for all this OT, benefits and absolute craziness!!!

Moderator Jim,

I forgot to thank you for reversing your decison and allowing us Napergatians to blog once again on issues that concern us.

I have not blogged since your decision.

Today is my first day back. As long as you allow us to blog as we please on relevant issues, I am back to being a regular blogger again.

Issues like downtown subsidized parking, police OT money, police discretion as a cover for discrimination, and corruption in City Hall concern all Napergatians as well as Napervillians.

I suspect everyone will unite to defeat the Establishment Party come next elction except for this group of 5 thugs on your blog site who are trying to control it and oust you as the fair and neutral Moderator.

They are so addicted that you ought to give them a 2 week sabatical to help them get over their addiction to blogging and regain control of themselves. They are like a bunch of 5 year olders in a Candy Store....out of control!

I am a little surprised they don't use their real first and last names since they have this deep need for recognition and attention.

My suspician is they may have traffic or even criminal records that would expose their hypocrisy...thus they settle for fantasy attention.

I think the debate on your blogs would go so much smoother if you directed or challenged your bloggers to answer directly instead of skirting around the issues.

I noticed the Napergatians answer directly. Joe and Ken just dance.

Joe can not come up with a number for the cost of downtown parking per spot or police OT per household. He just talks big in funny language and can not come up with a simple number.

I guess he is afraid the Napergatians will rip his numbers apart.

Yeah, Joe, I am sure this Police OT is only costing us .96 cents per household. Also, they say the Brooklyn Bridge is for sale for 5 bucks for suckers like you. Go back to the Candy Store and see if they will sell you a sucker for .96 cents! Don't forget to take an extra penny for police OT from the 1% cultural fund and an extra penny and a half for the 1.5% fund for subsized downtown parking. You got to pay your fair share in pennies like all children do for the SALES TAX!!! Don't forget, Joe! Being an adult with the mind of a child is no excuse for not paying up even if you do not comprehend anything like your fellow buddies or rather bullies on this site!

Moderator Jim to Sherry: I didn't quite "reverse" my decision, Sherry. All I'm doing is allowing Napergatians to come onto the police OT Part II thread and concentrate their comments on the issue of police overtime and not go off on tangents that include other and all aspects of Napergate. There are lots of other non-Napergatians who wish to comment on the police OT issue as well, and I don't want them to get all confused and alienated by having to read a lot of Napergatian material that has nothing to do with police OT. I'm just trying to accomodate everybody...within limits. Thanks for your - and all Napergatians' cooperation.

Moderator Jim,

The police overtime issue as it relates to staffing "charity events" appears to go the heart of the issue.

"Cultural Fund" Taxes are placed on the restaurants and bars, this money is then distributed to well-connected-charities that in turn spend the money to pay for their "favorite cause". A good question to ask is: do the operations of the Charities support (directly or indirectly) the business goals of their sponsors?

It appears the the bars etc.. fund the insiders favorite causes, then the City Govt. then turns around and taxes the rest of the businesses and homeowners to pay for the parking and police protection for the same Downtown establishments. ie. subsidized parking decks and police to more than cover the $2MM cost of the "Cultural Fund".

Actually, the subsidies and grants dwarf the $2 million in taxes "donated" to the "worthy charities" by the City.

The Charities then take the "forced donations" money and pay it out to cover their "operating expenses". One of those expenses is the Police OT required to protect the "fund-raisers".

A lot of the people that attend the huge fund-raisers are not from Naperville, who are the people that attend the small Naperville fund-raisers? Probably not the same crowd you see at the country rock concert. Many recognizable names?

The Charity fund-raisers in some cases crowd out the downtown businesses paying the taxes to support the event, WOW. The businesses still have to pay their rent, overhead and property taxes for those lost-days. WOW! The landlords still make out great.

One has to ask:

-What is the definition of CULTURE that the City uses to decide who gets our tax money?

- What are the published rules? What makes a Charity worthy in Naperville.

- What are the City's objectives in funding the worthy Charities?

- How is performance tracked and measured?

- Where are the public documents located that explain the benefits accrued to all of the taxpayers in exchange for our money? I'm guessing that there is something on the city web site but I don't want to leave my digital signature or file and FOI to read it.

The argument for the Downtown parking and police subsidies is that "everyone benefits", while making a few extremely wealthy. Huh?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

*Money flow: For OT ($2MM)

Food and alcohol tax => City Govt. => Establishment Charities => Police OT

*Money flow: Downtown Subsidies ($50-100MM++)

All City revenue sources and special fees => Subsidized parking and police OT and area improvements => increased profits for Downtown Business, Landlords and Service providers => many recognizable names

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

As to the get out of a ticket free card that Moderator used:

Sargent Knight pulled over a fellow Sargent for DUI, Knight either lost his job or almost lost his job for equal enforcement of the law. All of this was well documented in the Sun.

While I favor the officers having some discretion, penalizing officers for enforcing DUI is over the top. This one was a stain on the NPD for sure. I have a lot of respect for the NPD and was blown away by this one.

Were they both on OT when the appeared on court or did it get that far?

Sherry, I showed you how to calculate your cost.

Whip out your real estate tax bill and add up the city of Naperville taxes. Multiply them by .16, then again by .008

It's not 96 cents per household. That just happened to be mine based on my real estate taxes. I'm certain your taxes are different than mine and because of that would have a different 'cost' to you.

I understand what you are saying Moderator!

Thanks much! I think part of the problems stems from the fact so many Napergatians have found your blog site and love to blog on it.

I do wish that more Establishment Folks could find your blog site.

It seems sad that the Establishment is represented by these same 5 individuals. We have 150,000 residents in town and we only have these 5 losers bloggin on behalf of the Establishment as if they represent those in power!

Either no one supports the Establishment Party anymore or they are just over confident that business will remain as usual. Maybe they feel confident, they will be able to bring big numbers out at election time, as they have proven capable in the past even with the Napergate Man at his peak performance.

Maybe us Napergatians just have to work a little harder...obviously we are willing to...and trying!

Moderator Jim, speaking of tangents,please explain why the above post by Sherry is here? For the most part it is the usual bashing of the 5, which has nothing to do with OT.

BTW Jim, you are safe, the 5 thugs aren't trying to take over your blog, nor get you removed.

Moderator Jim to RJ: You're probably right, RJ. I let that one go...but that will be it. I knew this was going to be tough...put it this way...I'll be vigilant and do the best I can. Thanks.

Moderator Jim to Sherry: C'mon, Sherry. You're already violating the rules. You post your last comment on the police OT Part II thread and don't say one thing about police overtime. That's exactly the point I was making...and what I'm trying to avoid. You simply cannot go off on these tangents. If you want to, do it on the Napergate thread in the archives. Please.

Sherry, do you have proof that the NPD is protecting other liquor store owners as you imply? And that this protection is happening by officers on OT? Why not go to the county or state police with this information? Or the state's attorney office? Heck, I bet even Jim or Tim would be willing to publish this unequivocal proof that all you napergatians seem to have. There have been a couple of towns that had their police forces replaced by state or county law enforcement because of rampant corruption.

If you don't have this definite proof of overtime abuse and corruption you imply, then you are the one dancing. In fact, it seems like you and your fellow napergatians are all trying to do the Hustle.

Anonymous...

They do have discretion, judges do, doctors, parents etc. If you want to police to ticket every single person for every single violation with no discretion whatsoever, get ready to be hiring new officers or more OT! Hmmm...lets see then they would have more violations & anger which may land soooo many more in jail...so then lets get ready to fund the prison system more, which we know is overcrowded already....seems to me you are digging a bigger money whole when you are complaining already how much it is costing you.

Ken great point on liabilities of working as "charity" or even knowing it. If one gets hurt...will you be covered? etc. They never think of these things. Yes, if only people knew how much some work "off the clock". I'd like to see businesses say "come in off the clock" right! They won't even go in for a meeting without being on the clock.

Moya...anyone can sue for any reason today. Heck if a store confiscates a credit card they could be in trouble. Someone would probably try to sue...give me a break!

I assure you you do your fair share of helping out on this "us" vs "them" idea! You are not trying to bring together & work with them by your approach of attacking them. And to be so niave to think Naperville is unique in having city problems that are so similar to your own. Wow! That may explain why you do not understand the other points. That would be like LA or Chicago saying to Naperville residents you do not understand. Be very careful! There may be a few unique things you have to deal with with perhaps size of your city or the SES but I assure you then other cities have things your city does not deal with as much. To also think that just because someone is not aware or understands a point that you can not explain it to them nicely & they will then understand...quite sad! Again, you are separating with this comment not bringing together.

Finally, one good point you are finally attempting to get at is the idea of "bad apples" that there may be some but not to generalize to all. Finally! Though be careful what you may feel is "shooting the breeze" may actually be "watching & looking" etc in many ways. Many times students will think you are just socializing! Right! If they only had a clue what we were doing on their behalf. You can't tell them or they will realize & then it is a problem!

Sherry...

"I think part of the problems stems from the fact so many Napergatians have found your blog site and love to blog on it."

Oh so as somone mentioned they love the attention? Why don't they use first & last names then either?

Now lets see how many are posting on your side of the issue...hmmm? Just because others do not post does not mean they do not agree...do not make the jump in conclusion. Yes that can be for your side also but at least I recognize that...you are not.

There is an interesting article in the Aurora Beacon about Aurora's police overtime. Their police OT for '07 was almost $5.9 million.The article also stated that much of this OT is officers court time.

I guess Naperville seems pretty thrifty in comparison.

Moderator Jim: That little tidbit about Aurora police OT was pointed out in The Sun story last Sunday...guess they're just now catching up. In two cities of comparable size i.e. Aurora and Naperville, the NPD percentage-wise spends a lot less in overtime.

Moderator Jim, I figured it should be brought up again as many here seem to discount facts in their witch hunt.

Jim the Moderator,

On this new overtime thread, Stuart on April 26, 2008 6:19 PM mentioned your story about presenting a police card to a police officer when you were traveling in the Dominican Republic by stating: "You seemed to experience how it all worked when you got pulled over and pulled out your Uncle's NYPD Detective Card. Many of us don't have such a card and are given the most ruthless treatment imaginable as you were, before you pulled out your card that stopped the unpleasant behavior of the cop towards yourself and family."

When recounting your story he failed to state the important fact that you were in the DOMINICAN REPUBLIC. By omitting that fact, Stuart's post implies it relates to the NPD on this blog thread on NPD overtime!!!! Several readers have commented on, and responded to his statement as if your situation occurred here in Naperville.

Many readers on this thread probably did not read your post several days ago on another thread to know the truth. Without a correction the false stories often become the truth to uninformed bloggers, while the real stories are unknown or long forgotten. If you read Stuart's story without knowing your true story, it gives a false impression.

I understand it is impossible to correct all the falsity posted here, but hopefully this example shows the modus operande of some who have an agenda to deceive or mislead readers to support their beliefs. Many of those same bloggers profess that if their false or misleading statements(no matter how outlandish)are not corrected by you, or someone with proof, it only proves they are right.

Moderator Jim and RJ,
You really can't compare Aurora to Naperville just because they are the similar in size.

Aurora has the highest murder rates of all 200 suburbs of Chicagoland. Naperville has the one of lowest if not lowest murder rate of all 200 suburbs. I believe this is an inverse relationship to wealth and has nothing to do with how good or bad cops are.

Chief Dial admitted murders can create lots of overtime. We had one this year that is not part of the 3.15 million overtime. Aurora has dozens of murders per year.

We need to compare ourselves to towns like Downers Grove and Wheaton and multiply by 3 to equalize the populations. That is a much better and fair comparison to towns that are more similar to ours.

Those gang infested drug laden neighborhoods in Aurora need lots of policing. I live in a subdivision and I honestly can't recall the last time I have seen a police car. I know this has been said by many before me but it is true.

But not one person has given an explanation of why we need 12 cops on Chicago Ave to monitor 4 bars but none in the NW Plaza that has 3 bars and a liquor store all open till 2am on weekends.

I guess Joe said he has seen families with kids in strollers past 11pm in the downtown and that is the reason for the need of 12 cops. First, I have never seen kids in stroller pass 11pm on Chicago Ave. I am sure it has happened both there and in the NW Plaza on occassion. But I believe that would be rare. Most restuarants downtown become bars after 10pm and do not allow anyone under 21 after 10pm to dine or eat. I personally experienced that once at the balcony place we can not mention by name when I was with my family. I respected their policy and think it was good since kids should not be exposed to youngsters of age getting wasted. So I don't know what children would be doing on Chicago Ave. after 10pm since they are banned from most if not all the establishments.

I have never seen bar patrons even while intoxicated storm out to attack a baby in a stroller. They may fight over a pretty girl in a bar. But most 21 year old boys do not want babies and are not going to fight for or with a baby in a stroller. Most times if they hear their girl friends are pregnant, they leave the state or change identities to avoid responsibility.

Suddenly, Joe wants us to believe the 12 cops are there to protect a baby in the stroller who is with his MOM and DAD.

Many of the bars downtown have numerous bouncers who are capable of breaking any fight. Most bars have doormen that are stationed outside who could jointly break any fight. Thus the need for these 12 cops who I have every reason to believe are on overtime staying over from their midnight shift is a total waste of money.

Since we have 2 or 3 cops cars circulating the downtown area, they can be called by the bouncers or doormen when needed. We all know they got 3 police cars to arrest the Napergate Man in 50 seconds in a non-emergency situation. Since response time is so superb, why do we need 12 police officers when the bouncers could perform the job until the police arrive in much less than 50 seconds during an emergency situation.

Let us stop wasting money on Chicago Ave. I think someone computed it could be costing us nearly a million dollars a year in regular and overtime pay. Since the downtown estbalishments can't afford their parking they certainly can't afford all this unecessary security.

If they can't afford to pay their rightfill bills, they should be allowed to go out of business like other businesses in the USA. If they can afford to pay their bills, I hope they prosper, but I do not want to subsidize them anymore at my expense when I do believe most are making WINDFALL PROFITS!

How ironic that charities like the Ribfest and Last Fling are required to use their donations from citizens cultural tax to pay for police OT! However FOR PROFIT BARS do not have to reimburse us for police OT that pertains strictly to them despite their huge profits that are easy for anyone to notice since they have lines of patrons trying to get in especially during the late spring, summer, and early fall time period.

I hope the Naperville Sun helps us get some answers. If does really seem ironic that charities pay for Police OT but FOR PROFIT BUSINESSES do not pay for Police OT stationed outside their doors.

I guess if you put posters in your windows supporting the establishment during election time, you will be subsidized and exempted from all your true costs to run your business. Let us hope we are not picking up the garbage for these downtown businesses at our expense, but I suspect we are since the dumpsters are in public parking lots and used jointly by all the retailers.

Thanks RJ

Ignorance and not knowing what questions to even ask just harms so many! Perhaps that will help...if NPD also gave some comparison data to show they are in line with others their size etc. Heck, hate to use this example, but my vet even has a typed up thing on services that shows how his are lower than the avg for the area.

People just go nuts with data without knowledge of the data. Like the 50% divorce rate stats the media always puts out. Everyone says "ah you got a 50/50 shot!" Not true at all! Depends on SOOOO many factors...differences on culture, religion, age, how long you know the person, views on child rearing, roles of the marriage, on & on...some have a 90% chance of divorce others really 20% for example. Same thing here...people just react to numbers without the context & enough information to make informed evaluations; & do not even realize what they need to know to ask the right questions to analyze & make a judgement. They go by gut feeling & thus not logic...balance of the two might be even better, but too many just react to sensationalism rather than asking questions first & then deciding!

Moderator Jim to Southwest Naperville Taxpayer: I take your point, Southwest, about it difficult to correct all the "falsity" but this is an easy one. Anyone who wants can just go to the home page, click on "Jim Lynch" and get the whole story (my column, Fri. 4.25) in context. It's hard to talk about these matters with people who don't even read the paper...
either the print or online version. Thanks.

Beilen...how many times does one have to post that the 12 is for the whole downtown & not just those 4 establishments. If it was an officer who posted it perhaps confirm this again!

I really don't see too many kids that late but summer perhaps & when does Barnes & Noble & the Cookie Dough place close...so...then you stroll a bit. Not as much winter time. HA! I have never seen them be attacked either. :-)

Now calling for 1 person versus the..what someone already said 500-1000 patrons at the bars...much more damage can be done in even your 50 seconds you mention.

There is a bit of a difference between the establishments which are part of the city & a charity that comes in to do stuff that is not in a normal budget. They should pay for it. Heck, even if it is not a charity...I don't know if the circus comes into town...who would pay for that? Maybe I just don't know but I would think they would have to? Maybe one of the officers would know...I would think that would be private & not city so then...Just because you are a charity it doesn't mean you should not pay for things just like others have to. Again, perhaps it was on the other post but someone mentioned liabilities with "donating time" for the charity. You have to be careful not knowing & just thinking "why don't you" there may be darn good reasons!

Beilen,

Plenty of adults with their children stroll around downtown even after dark. Ethel's Chocolate is a Yummy Mummy hot spot and they are open until 11, as an example. Personally, I'm glad there's usually officers hanging around Jefferson/Main and Jefferson/Wash because there are a lot of a$$hats that sometimes hang out on the corner by the Starbucks acting like immature brats taunting drivers and walkers alike.

It's good to see cops bust chops around there once in a while when someone deserves it.

By Beilen on April 27, 2008 5:26 PM

"Those gang infested drug laden neighborhoods in Aurora need lots of policing. I live in a subdivision and I honestly can't recall the last time I have seen a police car. I know this has been said by many before me but it is true.

But not one person has given an explanation of why we need 12 cops on Chicago Ave to monitor 4 bars but none in the NW Plaza that has 3 bars and a liquor store all open till 2am on weekends".

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Beilen,

I have re-written you post so that you can understand why we need so many cops in the Downtown all the time

"Those gang infested drug laden neighborhoods in Downtown Naperville need lots of policing. I live in a subdivision and I honestly can't recall the last time I haven't seen bangers walking, loitering or driving through my sub division. I know this has been said by many before me but it is true."

As to monitoring the Downtown, you don't need a ticket to be admitted or have to be a Naperville resident, which means less all the time. There are a whole lot of people downtown most of the time. Read the arrest and crime reports, the ring around the downtown is impressive. Especially whey you collect the info for a few months and view it all at once.

Bubo,

You still have not answered my question.

Why do we need 12 cops monitoring 500-1000 partons at 4 bars on Chicago Ave and no cops monitoring 500-1000 partons at 4 bars in a NW Plaza that borders Aurora. Downtown is 5 miles away from Auroa. This plaza borders gang infested Aurora and receives no police protection except an occasional drive thru.

Besides these 12 cops on Chicago Ave there are other police vehilces both regular and undercover monitoring other parts of downtown. I have seen them. One undercover vehicle is a white car and one is a black car.

If just defies logic that one bar district has tons of cops and another has not ONE cop. It is as if we care about the downtown and do not care about the rest of the town.

You would think if 12 are really needed on Chicago Ave, at least 2 would be need in the NW Plaza.

I would like someone to seriously address this issue without dancing around it.

Thank you!

PS. I posted earlier on the Napergate Thread but I am posting here now because I believe these cops on Chicago Ave are on OT. No one has yet explained how they are paid. It is surprising how little we know about how our town is run. Maybe the Sun needs to do more reporting and explain to us how our town is run. Most of us bloggers are going in circles.

Joe,

You don't need 12 cops to bust chops on one intersection. You have plenty of doormen and bouncers who will help the cops if something big breaks out until more police arrive.

By the way, I have never seen anything big ever break out in downtown.

I think 2 police officers on Chicago Ave is plenty. I was in downtown on New Year's Eve and 3 cops on Chicago Ave did a great job. It was much busier than a summer day and the bars were open an extra hour till 3am...or actually 2 hours extra since I recall it being a Monday and they normally close at 1am on Mondays. Everyone was very intoxicated. I only saw one arrest which was a result of 2 girls fighting over a cab by pulling each other's hair. I guess there was no scarcity of police but a scarcity of cab drivers on New Year's Eve.

It is obvious we are throwing school cops on Chicago Ave because we don't know what to do with them in the summer. We feel a need to pay them...sometimes overtime whether they are needed or not.

Maybe these school cops should/could be helping the detective racking in $45,900 dollar in overtime where they can/may be useful instead of being "potted plants" on Chicago Ave. More than 2 or 3 cops on Chicago Ave. and we have potted plants showing off their motorcycles and checking out the girls because they are bored to death. I don't blame them! I blame the Chief of Police who put so many police officers unnecessarily on one intersection. We have had girls writing on these blogs about police officers opening cab doors for them.

I don't want to pay $54 bucks in OT to cops to open cab doors for pretty girls. If the girls are that wasted, maybe some one should talk to the bars owners about cutting them off before they get to the point where they can't even open a cab door.

And Joe, I was talking mostly between 11pm to 2am when their really are no strollers but 12 cops watching over 4 bars. The bars really should have plenty of their own security and should only call the cops in the rare event they lose control. Oak Brook and Downers Grove are loaded with bars. There are no cops stationed outside these bars. They handle their own security at their expense and only call the police when something gets out of control to the point where someone needs to be arrested.

Usually, if 2 guys fight over a girl, if you send the culprit home, the situation, is resolved with no need for cop intervention. Or you could send them both home one before another but not at the same time. Next time, they know they are not welcome unless they behave like gentlemen.

I really feel the bars downtown have very good internal and extenal security. Why the police are hanging around at such humongous expense to taxpayers is mindblogging to me?!

And Joe, there is no way this Police OT is only costing us .96 cents per household. If what you are saying is true, then Mr. Lynch does not need to run any more articles on the matter.

I believe the Napergatians estimate of $60 dollars per household is much more accurate. Don't forget Joe, we contribute to the tax fund in more ways than just our property tax. Who pays for most of the sales tax...the residents? Who pays for all that tax on the electric bills...the residents? Who pays for all that tax on the water bills....the residents? We are taxed in many different ways up the wazoo!

I think you are very wrong when you say it is only costing residents .96 cents for all this Police OT! I say you are VERY WRONG!!!

Cut the overtime, it is a waste of money and we can not afford it.

WE all now are on the same page regarding the country --the 'stay out of jail card' JL used in the dom.rep. Also I think it might be only time JL used the card,that's his business. I would guess his uncle was one of the good guys who EARNED the right to pass the card on and all of us would have tried our best to calm that fellow down. Kudos to JIM'S UNCLE,WITH RESPECT. We know 90% most PD's street cops are good,clean and work with respect for that badge and oath. However what about the so called 'rogue' cop. The problems exists at the top and mid-level mgt.In particular, the fireman blogger said out of approx 50 legit traffic stops he walked on all but 1,and further was surprised that officer wrote the ticket. Another officer gave a list of occupations that routinely may be given PROFESSIONAL COURTESY , that's discretion we mostly have agreed of that need.The trib has a great thread on chi police with several " real officers" telling it like they see it.PC EXISTS ,and needs to be ended. dang, if the good guys can't obey these traffic laws something is wrong?Do you know most DEPTs use friend to a police officers card? Some are very specific giving commander's number to check/verify clout?? Source-'City in Chains' A nurse said as a young woman she oftened recieved PC, but as an older person,has been written citation.Worse than PC,Or of equal important, Is the internal affairs div. working in city?. I believe the lady who is too afraid to file for fear of harrassment. Let's have the meet-up Joe and several others have been calling for. It's your $$$$$$$$ just like the ROTELLA ad,pay now or pay later.

Rachael, you are correct! Only the state agency issueing the license can suspend or revoke,after the ticketing source forwards complaint to SOS/DMV.Ralph are you ready to sign our petition asking DOJ/FBI to come and investigate the MANY,MANY allegations of misconduct,failure to perform due diligence,conduct unprofessional,and straight out criminal acts. Overtime will seem like a small cost factor after the various fed. civil rights violations are settled.The city boys never 'got it',they long for the days when most people refused to speak out, for fear of retribution from popo's. This has been stated by several local residents who went as far to name the officers. I'm not at this to bring any SINGLE person out to the public whipping post. Dozens of residents and people who visit your city have posted personal experinces with NPD. That is how our group came to form.I'll stop here and look to see if this makes the cut. Also kudos to Beilen,Lucas,Stuart,Linda,mr.popo,elmhurst cop,Ralph and of course Eli and Ameena. I know I left out a few,cuz im tring to get this posted. For those who want changed in NPD policy, your wishes are about to come true. p.s. you always have an oppurtunity to PRESENT your side to SOS ,provided you are aware of action to suspend,and after ajudication you have your appeal.As we see with ISTHA,NOT EVERYDODY is accorded due dilegence. They will soon regret that actions again under class action.

We hate the ACTIONS of the criminal cops, Ken- we do not hate the officer or sgt. Where in the past year in POTLUCK has a blogger used the H word as applied to a indivdual. We are trying to change the behavior of the culture of 'Rogue' cops. When i'm done try'in i'll file my complaint and cash out. over and out. Help solve the problems or attack me personally, I've been a delivery boy for more than four MILLION MILES and on a typical chi-town to long beach round-tripper i'll deal with more peace officers,scale masters,DOT inspectors,local PD, county,state{marked or otherwised},fuel testing and collection agents,port of entry;mandatory registration, and YOU know what the agriculture station back-up going into and out of Vegas on high volume week-end is like. Yes, federal officials also get involved when needed.

By Beilen on April 27, 2008 9:12 PM

"You still have not answered my question.

Why do we need 12 cops monitoring 500-1000 partons at 4 bars on Chicago Ave and no cops monitoring 500-1000 partons at 4 bars in a NW Plaza that borders Aurora. Downtown is 5 miles away from Auroa. This plaza borders gang infested Aurora and receives no police protection except an occasional drive thru."

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

While the police are obvious in the Downtown, I don't know what the presence looks like at the NW bars you are referencing. Unmarked? Are there incidents there where the police are not there in a timely manner or not able to make arrests because everyone got away clean?

Does the Downtown drive overtime for the police during the war