Anon –

Bla bla bla. More of the same.

Perhaps the Napergatians didn’t use the exact words “extremely safe”, but how else would you describe a job Napergatians said was less stressful than being a teacher and nothing more than strolling the Riverwalk and issuing tickets? Sounds extremely safe to me.

Why not ask a cop if he thinks a protective vest should be optional? Maybe ask his or her spouse what they think?

But I’ll follow your argument and state that vests are also a deterrent. A police officer’s ability to survive being shot and continue to fight is also a deterrent to a potential thug.

No, not surprised that London cops are unarmed, I’ve known that for a long time. However, how does that matter here with the differences in gun laws and gun cultures between the US and the UK?

But wait…you said cops need the deterrent of a gun? But I thought this was a safe city, this was a stress-free job, and these guys are over-paid for doing nothing more than stroll the Riverwalk and stand on Chicago Ave?

Oh, that’s right. You want the cops armed “in case a gang banger infiltrates Naperville”. So these safe, over-paid cops are supposed to keep the gangbangers at bay? Being asked to hold the barbarians at the gates doesn’t sound so safe to me.

Besides, I hate to tell you, but the gangs are already here and are trying to establish themselves further. The cops deal with them on a daily basis.

The car argument has been thrown about here a bit. Try this one…you could buy a Smart car and it will economically get you from place to place and look like a real bargain. You could then laugh at those who paid more for a larger and safer car. However, you won’t be laughing if or when you get in an accident. And the guy with the safer and larger car will think his money was well-spent.

T.B.

P.S. Can you post once without an attack? Try it sometime, you may like it.

Host Ted and Counciman Bob,

Mr real estate tax bill in regards to the City of Naperville went up 18.27% last year. Inflation was a little over 3% but the City of Naperville expenses were 15% more than inflation.

Why should we have to figure out what city officials are doing wrong? They are the experts being paid to get the job done right! Not us!

I think the Napergatians are being unreasonable in only asking for a 5% cut. I would like a 15% cut to compensate for the 15% excess over inflation last year. That would give city officials 3.27% increase for last year which is the national norm and more than enough.

Residents have to realize that if the City of Naperville continues with these 18% rises, our taxes will double in 4 years. Is anyone in this town willing to accept quadrupling of taxes in 4 years other than possibly some of our councilmen such as Wehrli who come from establishment land wealth?

I think we should make a demand for a 15% budget decrease and give City Officials till the next election to achieve it. If they can't, I think we should oust all the council members who did not demand this 15% budget decrease be forcefully implemented.

It is obvious to me the City Council wants to oust the middle class out of town. We need to be wise and realize their agenda and oust them out of office before they can oust us out of town. We still have the numbers! Let us implement our policy on the City Council before they implement their policy on us!

Very much like the old Joe but a little worse is TB.

The Napergatians said being a Naperville Cop is less risky than being a Chicago or Aurora Cop...thus deserves less pay! That is an obviously true statement.

They did not say it is extremely safe...those are your words twisting, dicing and slicing like the old Joe!

They really do not need protective vests since no cop has ever been shot and killed in 178 years. They are uncomfortable and heavy! They are more likely to cause a heart attack from heat exhaustion than deflect a bullet. Protective vests should be optional!

A gun is what makes a cop's job less risky than a civilan job. He has the opportunity to defend himself in the event someone may shoot at him in the 200th or 300th year of the City of Naperville.

You may be surprised but in London which has more risk than Naperville, police officers do not cary guns. I do not recommend that here because Chicago is only 30 miles away and I would like them armed in case a gang banger infiltrates Naperville, I want our cops armed. It is more a deterrent than anything else. The vest is not a DETERRENT!

In summary you are self-centered T.B.! You are always discussing yourself in your posts! Joe has come out of the gutter but you remain entrenched there. Very much into your ego and self! Sorry, but that is how I see it. How I perceive you? Joe finally grew up and understood his ego would not get him anywhere. When are you going to grow up, TB?

Finally, good luck to Moderator Jim! I will miss him much! I wish him well in this untimely departure right before some action was going to be taken to open the City of Naperville wide open so we can see what is happening inside!

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My thanks to Councilman Bob for contributing to this debate in a very constructive manner. Maybe TB can take a tip or two from CM Bob and focus on reducing the budget instead of promoting his EGO on these threads!

McFarland, where was I not civil? I ask if anyone has lost their bearings, or told them to mellow out just for stating their opinions. I am not the one who has been admonished several times by the moderators. I have not even been admonished once, probably because I am the model of civility even when responding to the attacks of the cult members.

If Jim were to give civility lessons before he left, it would be to the napergate cult that has made a habit out of personal attacks. You want to debate me on my statements, fine. Otherwise, your opening statements don't indicate an inclination towards civility.

As to the rest of your statement, calling for anything on a forum is just rhetoric on a posting board. Taking action in real life, not on the internet is required to 'call' for any type of change.

To An Observer –

What do you mean the world doesn’t revolve around me? Just a few short days ago I had the power to turn the police against the Napergatians…now I’m insignificant? Say it isn’t so.

You Napergatians have created a nice catch 22. If I respond to a post directed at me, it’s for the “attention”. If I ignore the post, Maryann will come along and say I went into “hiding” (as she’s done more than once).

But back to our conversation...Since being a Naperville cop is so extremely safe and much less stressful than being a teacher, do you believe NPD officers should be issued protective vests and guns? Aren’t these unnecessary expenses given the safe nature of the job (as you describe it)?

T.B.

Ken,

Are you losing your bearings? Mellow out!

Anyone has the right to ask City Hall to reduce its budget by 5%!

This is not the old Communist Soviet Union or North Korea where people can not ask government to take measures to cut wasteful spending.

The Napergatians are simply making a request that benefits all residents and taxpayers of the City of Naperville.

I would like to add my voice to those who are making this reasonable request of a 5% cut in next year's budget.

The City Council has a choice to acknowledge the request or ignore the request. My feeling is this is no longer solely a Napergatian issue as it effects all tax paying residents in town!

Let us see what the City Council will do. It seems like Councilman Bob is genuinely concerned. I commend him for his concern and I hope he is influential in leading his fellow council members to force some reduction on City Departments.

In the meantime, if I were you Ken, I would visit a psychiatrist to have your bearings examined. Sooner better than later!

___________________________________________________________________

PS. Moderator Jim....maybe you can make a second attempt at getting through to Ken before you leave us...please don't leave it all in Ted's Hands! A civil blog will attract many more bloggers....

The Napergatians are calling for a 5% budget cut or 19 Million dollars. We have 18 million more to go.

What power do the napergatians have to call for anything? None of you are willing to put up money to back your 'movement'. None of you are willing to lead the 'movement'. None of you are willing to do your own research or go to the public meetings.

When the napergatians actually have a slate of candidates with a stated platform, then they can call for reductions. Until then, they are just a small group of posters on this forum unwilling to back their words with actions.

By the way, I look forward to the day you prove me wrong and present a slate of candidates calling for the cessation of all government pensions, lowering all government salaries, and cutting the police and fire forces everywhere except for your subdivisions. Good luck!

Lucas,
I agree with everything you said above and want to second your motion that Napergatians should all renew their subscriptions to the Naperville Sun.

I read 2 editorials on these government pensions in the Chicago Sun-Times which I believe is now the mother of the Naperville Sun. It was true investigative reporting uncovering corruption in the state pension system.

In one case a state representative was retiring with a pension of 64,005 dollars. Right before retirement she took a phony position with the Governor for 2 months at a higher salary. Because of those 2 months her pension ended up to be 102,000 dollars and the taxpayers were scamed and schemed. Very very sickening.(Commentary Sun-Times, page 23, June 3, 2008)

Our city council should pass a resolution condemning the state and asking for immediate reform to the pension system. They need to put their pen where their lips are! Yes our pension system is 44 billion in the hole.

Recently the CTA increased sales tax to try to save their inflated pension. It was still not enough and the pension plan was heading towards bankruptcy. There was no chance for a second sales tax increase that the riders would pay for. Finally, as part of the compromise plan, "CTA employees were forced to take a reduction in benefits and increase THEIR own contributions."(Commentary Sun-Times, page 7, June 3, 2008)

The CTA was also state regualted as all these pension funds are. I would like to ask Councilman Bob since the CTA took action to lighten the burden on the taxpayer, why our city council can't take action against police and fire pensions to lighten the burden on Naperville taxapayers. I would like him not to take the word of a City Official without investigatiing. I would like to ask Host Ted to further investigate this issue and see what can be done.

One thing we know for sure is that we can decrease the starting salary of a police officer or fireman to whatever we so choose. Maybe reducing their pay to 30k would be a way to pressure the union to make police and fireman pay much more into their pensions and expect much less so it is no longer a subsidy by Naperville Taxpayers.

Once we got the union to straighten out, we can increase police and firemen starting salaries to 41k. That is very competitive with other police departments and the same as school teachers in Naperville who are also public servants working in the same town with even more responsibilities than police officers. Much harder working to due to the nature of their jobs.

I do want to say I appreciate what Councilman Bob has done. I am disappointed that this thread was taken off the Main Page before Councilman Bob could respond. Obviously, the Main Page gets thousands of views more than archives. Councilman Bob's remarks should be given their own thread. He should be encouraged so other council members will also work with the residents. I am disappointed with our other 8 council members for not stepping up to the plate like Councilman Bob has. He should not have to do all this work by himself. If no one is going to help him, we should at least elect him Mayor and double his salary!

Finally, I want to thank Moderator Jim for his service to the Sun and City. He did a remarkable job changing the newspaper from tabloid to investigative. Many of us felt this newspaper was a tabloid paper 2 years ago. I am sure the Napergate Man also did and that could be one reason he refused several offers to be interviewed. I thought it was ironic that one would pay so much money to express his opinion but would not express it freely when having the opportunity. It could be he never trusted the old Naperville Sun. I did not either! I am a bit puzzled why Mr. Jim Lynch is losing his job instead of Mr. Tim West being retired since he is almost at the retirment age and can collect Social Security if the Sun does not have a pension plan! Who has done more for the Naperville Sun? Who has been more productive the last 2 years? Who has brought circulation up? Who is responsible for the circulation decline before Mr. Lynch arrived on the scene to save the SUN!

I hope the Naperville Sun can re-evaluate its decison to lay off Mr. Lynch. It was a horrible decision and I believe the Naperville Sun will pay dearly. In the meantime since Host Ted is doing a great job let us all give him a chance to continue the works of Mr. Lynch. Even though one can avoid being a subscriber and get the information off the net, let us subscribe so we can show our support for the Naperville Sun and improve it finanacial condition.

Can anyone imagine what would happen in this town if we lost the Naperville Sun and no one was watching City Hall? How about City Manager Bob Marshall having his pension increased from 85k to 140k when no one is looking by the Establishment powers to be as a possibility? It happened the other day in Chicago with the Sun-Times watching and calling them out. It could happen in Naperville if we don't watch. Everyone in this town should have a little Napergate Man in him or her. Only then can we stop corruption and cronyism which is rampant in both our city and state!

Councilman Bob,

These reductions are really shameful. One million from a $380 million dollar budget is one quarter of 1%.

The Napergatians are calling for a 5% budget cut or 19 Million dollars. We have 18 million more to go.

This 1.08 million is less than one third of police OT which is $3.15 million. We can certainly do much better.

Not filling open positions for 400k is something I am not buying. If you don't need to fill an open position, that position was never needed in the first place. The storm sewar is really not a savings but a postponment. Without those 2 items we only have one eighth of 1% with 18.5 million to go.

Little of the OT in all depts. is being eliminated. Reducing salaries is a great way to reduce costs and future pensions.
As someone said it make no sense to pay a teacher 41k while a police officer gets 56k. Let us drop starting salaries for police officers to 41k and demand they pay 35% of their health insurance as school teachers do. That is regualted by the City Council and not State Legislatures. In my opinion teachers work much harder than police and should be compensated better. Police should be happy we are letting them make what teachers make.

By reducing salaries we are reducing pension costs until the State Govt. is fixed. I read that these pensions are underfunded by 44 billion dollars in the Chicago Sun-Times yesterday. Does it surprise anyone especially when police officers like Bob Marshall are taking home 85k in pension 14 years before the mandatory age of retirement for a police officer which is 65 years of agE? Was he given a promotion or large raise in his last years to fatten up his pension?

I was also reading in the Chicago Sun-Times yesterday, that it is a common practive to fatten up the salary in the last year, so the retiree can receive a huge pension. This is business as usual in most government agencies. Shameful and always at the expense of the taxpayer!

I hope Councilman Bob, that you and your colleagues on the City Council can reduce police salaries as soon as possible. It is outrageous for a 21 or 22 year old kid out of college to be makeing that kind of money, with full health insurance, life insurance, massive pension and the list goes on. Not only is he getting 20k more than his colleague in the private sector but a pension to boot. His colleague in the private sector receives O pension and usually pays for his own health insurance through deductions in his paycheck!

We have a mess, Councilman Bob! Please fix the salary part which is in your GOOD HANDS! Let us not put all the blame on the STATE even though they are definitely full of BLAME!

And finally even though your information has angered me, I understand you are only the messenger in this specific "case." I do appreciate the information you are providing and the effort you are undertaking to get it for us.

Please urge your fellow council members to read Ted's Threads and take some serious action to reduce the next budget.

Thank You!

===================================================================

PS. Since I am an infrequent blogger, I want to say farewell to Mr. Jim Lynch and thank him for the changes he made at the Naperville Sun. His treatment of the Napergatians in the last few months is commendable and appreciated. Host Ted seems up to the task of taking over for him. I wish we could have you both! I never thought the Naperville Sun with a skeleton staff could be hit before City Hall. But maybe this infection will spread to City Hall where it needs to infilitrate much more than the efficient Naperville Sun. Even with Moderator Jim, there are times Host Ted had to work from 7am to 1am when first establishing this blog site and during its infancy. I hope the Naperville Sun realizes they may be asking Host Ted to be Superman. I hope he is up to the task.

I wish Jim could have stayed on until more and more Napergatians had a chance to renew their subscriptions. I am planning on renewing mine after the progressive changes I have seen in the Naperville Sun especially in the watchdog and investigative reporting arenas. I urge all Napergatians to renew their subscriptions in an attempt to make one last effort at saving Mr. Jim Lynch's position at the Naperville Sun. Let us all make an effort and see what happens. He has the Naperville Sun on the right track and his loss is very untimely and inappropriate. Other cost savings measures should have been undertaken. I think this one was a huge mistake by Chicago Sun-Times officials. Just my 2 cents worth! Hopefully someone at the Sun Times is reading this magnificent Blog Site and will do something to keep Mr. Lynch with us! He will truly be a GREAT LOSS to Naperville and the Sun!

Just to follow-up some of the questions I said I'd get answers to:

On pensions:

QUESTION to City's Finance Director: How did the pension system we're operating under get started?? Was it via a state law passed by the Illinois legislature?? Was it by municipal ordinance?? In other words, if the residents, via their elected Councilmen, wanted to increase or decrease pension benefits, what's the legal mechanism for doing that?? Also, does Naperville have a mandatory age for retiring from the police force or fire department??

ANSWER: Effective July 1, 1963, legislation was passed by the State legislature that required that each municipality must establish a police pension fund, whose structure and operation is dictated by State statute. (ILCS Chapter 40 "Pensions," Article 3 "Police Pension Fund - Municipalities 500,000 and Under."

The legal mechanism for changes will likewise need to be through action at the state level. The Illinois Municipal League has started the reform ball rolling with their recent issuance of "Fiscal Analysis of the Downstate Police, Fire and IMRF Pension Systems. This analysis highlights the challenges being experienced by the majority of pension funds with respect to annual funding.

One municipality (Evanston) tried to take a year off of funding and they lost in court.

Basically, actuary comes in and says that, given the population covered, the City will be required to contribute X dollars for each year. The only statutory requirement is that each municipal plan be fully funded by the year 2033. We have a large unfunded balance that we pay a portion of each year from now through 2033. This is combined with the amounts earned during the year to make up our contribution. The union contracts only come into play regarding the final salary of the officer's at time of retirement. The higher the salary, the higher the pension, and therefore the higher the City contribution.

Maximum retirement age for PD is 65 years old.

UPSHOT: The City can only control salaries on which pension benefits will be based. Any wholesale changes in the pension system for police, fire and other municipal employees will have to be made at the state level by the legislature & Governor. Suggestion for people interested in making changes in the pension system: either elect good state reps or get elected yourself.

On cutting City expenses:

QUESTION to City's Finance Director: Please provide a synopsis of what the city is doing to contain or reduce costs.

ANSWER: The City has seen significant revenue reductions in the areas of real estate transfer taxes, as well as smaller than expected receipts from sales tax. These effects were first felt last fall, at which time the City took action regarding not filling vacant positions, as well as some minor restructurings that resulted in the eliminations of a few positions.

Our budget process (which runs from September through March) was significantly impacted by the tougher economic times. Only the most critical positions were approved, only one new program was approved and significant cuts were made across all discretionary categories, such as training, overtime, compensation, etc. A spreadsheet is provided below which summarizes the major cuts across the City's General Fund.

Expenditures:
Fire Department-cut software/phones: -$15,500
Add additional funding for NCTV: +$25,000
10% cut on conferences and training: -$101,862
5% cut on Overtime with exclusions: -$180,000
Family Medical and Leave Act offset: -$20,000
Cellular phone reduction: -$24,600
Wireless data Charge reduction: -$18,500
E-agenda position elimination: -$68,247
Compensation reduction to 3.85%: -$37,374
Not filling open positions: -$400,000
Storm sewer equipment purchase deferral: -$166,879
Total: -$1,007,962

As the economic climate continues to languish, we intend to continue to scrutinize any and all non-critical services and purchases.

Best, ~CB.

T.B.

Liebert did not say that you were not entitled to your opinion. He did not say you were dense. You are saying those things about yourself to boost your ego, as Ken does! To bring sympathy to yourself! To feel like an abused victim!

Again, you guys love responding to anything said about yourselves as if the world revolves around you.

Liebert simply indicated that your opinion was sad. He expressed an opinion about your opinion. I tend to agree with him that your opinion is sad.

Most towns could afford to pay their police more if they wanted to...all they have to do is tax their residents and business more.

Most towns can afford to pay full price for their cars. But most towns are a little smarter than RJ and do not believe you get what you pay for. Not surprised your little group of four or five has not received much support. Most 16 year old girls would even try to bargain a little off the sticker price of a new car...but not RJ...he simply believe you pay for what you get. I wonder how many in City Hall also believe you get what you pay for.

Other towns have chosen not to do that. Naperville has chosen to do that.

Other towns respect their residents pocket books. Naperville does not.

It is inexcusable and unconsionable that the Naperville does not respect its taxpayers pocketbooks.

A teacher with a Masters and 8 years experience commands $56,000. This is what a rookie cop in Naperville makes right our of college. In addition the teacher contributes to his health insurance 35% while the police officer contributes nothing. The teacher works thousands of OT HOURS for free during the school year. Even works during the summer as part of his or her salary. The police officer charges for every single minute he works OT. And top that with the fact that a police officer can retire at age 51 with 85,000 dollars. Teachers are not allowed to retire at age 51 and collect full pensions. Their pensions are much smaller than police pensions. No one is contributing up to 21% towards their retirement.

I agree with Liebert that your opinion are not only sad but have no semblance of fairness to them. They seemed biased and misguided!

Naperville Police work in a safe environment in which no police officer has ever been shot while on duty in 178 years. They should be paid much less than police officers in other towns who are shot at every year. If the Naperville Police were being shot at, TB, would say let us pay them more...they are being shot at! But his selfish irrationally opinionated self does not see that other police depts should pay more than ours due to the daily risk their officers face in rougher areas of Chicagoland.

Our police officers are not better than other police officers. They need to be paid competitively based on RISK to their lives. Not based on what we can afford to pay them. Not only is your opinion TB sad, but it is immature and without foundation. It is ridiculous! It is nonsense! Please express all the opinions you like but let us call them foolish when they are foolish. That is our opinion and we are entitled to our opinion.

Keep expressing your opinion TB. But please allow us to express our opinion that your OPINIONS are truly SAD! Very SAD!

Liebert –

“It is sad that TB feels our police officers should receive pay that is not commensurate with the true risks other police officers face on a daily basis!”

It’s not sad, Liebert, it’s just a different opinion. You’re free to disagree with me, yet I don’t find your position “sad”. I accept that you have an opinion different than my own. It’s really pretty simple.

That’s been a bone of contention I’ve had with some of the Napergatians for a while now. Nobody is allowed to have an opinion which differs from the accepted Napergatian dogma. If you do offer a different opinion you’re labeled as dense, sad, or attributed some sinister motive for your opinion. Why is that?

What’s truly sad is that other departments can’t afford to pay their officers what they truly deserve. The fact that an Aurora police officer may be under-paid does not necessarily mean that a NPD officer is over-paid. Should we reduce everything in our city to the lowest common denominator?

T.B.

Councilman Bob,

Could you please tell us what the mandatory age for retirement of a Naperville police officer is. I would hate to get into speculative arguing. I suspect Chief David Dial is over 60. I am almost positive he is. So TB may be wrong!

If Police Officers can work till 60 or 65, their retirement pensions should not start until they can no longer be police officers. One thing is certain: the mandatory age is not 51 and Mr. Bob Marshall chose to quit not because he was tired of being a policeman or incapbale but because it made financial sense to quit. We should not have a pension program that allows a very fine police officer who can run marathons to retire early for the SAKE OF COLLECTING his retirement 19 years before Social Security says a person can be fully vested and retired. Retiring police officers during their prime and while they can run 26 mile marathons seems a bit overboard. It is costly to train and retain new police officers so why encourage a very competent and physically fit top notch cop to retire by in essence offering him $85,000 NOT to work when he is literally at his peak in performance, agility, experience, wisdom and knowledge. Makes no sense to me! When a cop is at his peak is when he has his 6th sense fully developed to solve difficult crimes by piecing them together like a puzzle.

While Chicago, Joliet and Aurora police face serious risk from armed gang bangers, thankfully Naperville police officers don't face these serious risks. Police officers would be happy to work for Naperville for less money. Who would not take a few thousands dollars less pay per year so they can come home safely to their families every night? That should be an acceptable trade-off to offer our new recruits a little less by emphasing unlike Chicago Cops they will return safely to their families after completing their 12 hour shifts.

It is sad that TB feels our police officers should receive pay that is not commensurate with the true risks other police officers face on a daily basis!

Let us be very fair to our police officers. But let us not pay them as if they are risking their lives everyday when no police officer would have been ever killed in action in the 178 year history of Naperville except for an unfortunate motorcycle accident.

It is inexcusable and unconsionable that someone in our city approved the purchase of 2 deadly motorcycles for our police officers. Please have them blown up in a demolition charity event before any of our police officer are injured on them. Make the person who approved their purchase, reimburse the cost to the taxpayers. That was the most irresponsible thing anyone could have done as it endanger lives.

If Councilman Bob knew that our former Chief of Police was killed pursuing a suspect on a motorcycle, I wonder why that person(s) who approved this exependiture did not know the risks of police on motorcylces. Did the City Council approve these new motorcycles?Did the Chief of Police approve these motorcycles? Did the Fraternal Order of Police approve these deadly motorcyles? Who approved them....who has loose bearings in our city?

Mariette –

While I agree with you that most city employees should be moved from a pension system to a more corporate structure as you described (“they join the Social Security System like the rest of us. It is time they contribute to 401k, IRAs and Roths”); this is not necessarily feasible for police and fire employees as they frequently are forced to retire before they can collect on their 401k or IRAs. Many police departments have a mandatory retirement age younger than age 59, when retirement savings can be accessed without severely adverse tax consequences.

Just something to think about. Their retirement plans need to be tailored around this quirk in their careers.

T.B.

Nancy, my dear –

Please refer back to the police OT thread and you’ll see that I suggested the city and NPD study ways to have the police officers present in court during normal working hours and not while on OT. You’ll also see that while I believe that the NPD offers the best safety for the fests, I do not support the OT costs being paid for by any taxpayer-supported funds. The fests should pay the expense themselves. You characterization that I am too free to spend taxpayer money is, quite frankly, in error.

***********

To Belinda, Caroline, and Nancy –

Maybe you’re right. Maybe saying Belinda has a “hatred” for the NPD was in error. From now on, I’ll reserve the use of that word for the Napergatians who actually called the police fascists, scum, or worse.

Maybe you three can help me understand something…. Why is it you can’t just accept that another person can look at the same facts as you and yet still come to a different conclusion? Why is there this apparent desire to somehow “win” every argument?

In your view, is it possible that someone who supports the pensions our police officers earn is not somehow lacking in common sense (so nicely put, Nancy), but simply values the service and sacrifice these officers make in order to keep us safe and secure?

And lastly, why is it that those who don’t agree with you have to be attacked? Have to be insulted? Or have to be unjustly accused of having some sinister motive?

The ball’s in your court. Let’s see what you do with it.

T.B.

Another nice attack post from napergate cult member Nancy. Question, Nancy: If I can not debate, or argue, as you put it, why do so many cult members feel the need to attack me by name? Why do so many cult members try to refute what I type? More importantly, why do you have to keep repeating your lame points while trying to make them true?

By the way, I received a ticket in Lisle, and the officer was there for the morning session, so your facts are a little off on that score, among others. As RJ said, if the cop is not there and will not be available for that day, you should have requested that the ticket be dismissed. That is why the police have to be in court; a knowledgeable person knows the case is dismissed if the issuing officer does not show up.

Read Councilman Bob's posts carefully and you will see that they back up what the GOF has repeatedly said. As we say repeatedly, if you can't attack the message, you always resort to attacking the messenger. In fact, Councilman Bob alluded to that penchant of the cult as part of the reason he quit posting here. I have offered many times to just stick to debating and quit referring to the napergatians as cult members if they would quit the name calling and belittlement tactics. That offer is still in play, and I keep hoping that I will be able to do so. However, it seems the cult members are unable to debate without those tactics, so I may never achieve that simple action.

Mariette, just because so many people are willing to go $60-100,000 in debt for a college degree today knowing that the current job market starts them out so low is no reason to settle for an inferior police force. As Councilman Bob said, you have to pay well and have good benefits to attract good people. This is also true in the corporate world, whether you want to admit it or not. While middle and lower corporate levels get the shaft, the higher level people do get good pay and benefits. You may think getting what you pay for is not true, but that does not make it so. The requirements for becoming a police officer have become higher in recent years, so it makes sense that the pay and benefits have done so too.

By Ken on May 31, 2008 12:15 PM
That is why pensions were created and preserved, not to mention the fact that government employees used to be underpaid compared to private sector employees

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Very good point Ken!

Government employees were ONCE underpaid! They are no longer underpaid.

Very few undergradutes with a BS or BA from reputable universites can command a starting salary of 56k like Naperville Police and Firefighters upon graduation. Most are lucky to get jobs between 25k to 45k, if they can get a job in this tough economy!

Since goverment employees like Naperville Police and Firefighters are no longer underpaid but overpaid, don't you think the time has come not only to eliminate their PENSIONS but to ask them to contribute to their own HEALTH INSURANCE!

It is time they join the Social Security System like the rest of us. It is time they contribute to 401k, IRAs and Roths from their own money to supplement S.S. as we do!

I hope Councilman Bob can get his fellow council members to smell the coffee before either the residents or the city has to file bankruptcy!

I would like to start off by wishing Councilman Bob a very Happy Birthday tomorrow.

I am posting today after a long absence because you are here being civil and informative. I appreciate that very much!

I stopped posting because of bloggers like Ken, as you learn nothing debating him. As Anonymous stated, he is as hollow as hollow can be.

I believe Councilman Bob will make the debate between the Napergatians and Establishment folks civil and fruitful!

But the first thing that Councilman Bob needs to do is acknowledge that it is OK for the city of Naperville to have a 2 party system.

If the Napergatians want to have a party and endorse City Council members, Councilman Bob needs to give them encouragement. After all, we live in a democracy! We need not shut down voices because we do not agree with them.

In my opinion, the Napergatians have done a good job in this town establishing grass roots movements especially in the past. The old Naperville Sun has never helped them.

I may be wrong, but I see Editor/Publisher Jim Lynch willing to give them equal time in the next election if they run a slate of candidates now that the Naperville Sun is no longer owned by Harold and Eva White and establisment owners who followed them!

With equal time in the press, the Napergate Party may be able to pull it off without the Napergate Man! Let us wait and see! Time will tell!

Again Happy Birthday Councilman Bob! I wish Marilyn Monroe was still with us and could sing at your Birthday Party. You deserve that for the courage you have shown by jumping into the frying pan.

I assure you, you will always have my RESPECT! And thank you for what you have provided so far!!!

Happy Birthday Councilman Bob,

I am glad you are looking into Ernie's proposal of a 5% cut across the board in all departments. I think this makes a lot of sense to me and encourages all departments to push for conservation and excellence.

Department heads should be given a 5% one time bonus if they achieve this 5% reduction in all expenses including payroll with no sacrifice to services to residents.

Since the City of Naperville has really never paused once to eliminate excess fat in its very long history, I believe the first attempt should be relatively easy.

I believe since City Council sets policy this can be achieved by 5 out of 9 votes. After policy is set, the City Manager has to implement policy.

I just hope that pro-tem City Manager is up to the task. If you feel he is not, maybe you ought to pass the vote but delay implementing your decision until a more experienced City Manager is finally retained? A 5% cut needs to done with surgical precision with every precaution made not to lose a valuable employee! Cut- backs of employees need to made based on performance and not seniority. If the union will not allow us to make cuts based on poor performance, our union contract needs to be terminated next time it is up for renewal. We need to take brave steps in these recessionary times. If gasoline goes to 7 bucks as expected by many experts sometime in the next 2 years, you will see thousands blogging about this issue instead of hundreds. I promise you that, Councilman Bob! It would be wise for the City Council to pre-empt what is about to happen.

When do you expect a new City Manager to be in place that could possibly handle this 5% across-the-board reduction assuming it could muster 5 city council votes?

Would you consider running for Mayor one day and replacing Mayor George Pradel when he retires?

Just for the record I am for the Council/Manager form of government. A Mayor can be elected purely on popularity and really may not have the qualifications to be a City Manager/Strong Mayor!

I like Mayor George Pradel a lot but I believe he was elected on popularity simply because he is adorale and lovable! I would like to add he is honest and has excellent morals. The Napergate Man also has a good chance of being elected on popularity...but could he really run a "Strong Mayor" form of government without even ever having experienced being a council member or ever held a government job?...I don't think so! Let us keep the Council/Manager form of government!

I have nothing against the Napergate Man! I think he has done wonderful things for the City of Naperville both past and present! Please don't attack me! I was just making a POINT!

Nancy wrote;
RJ wants us to believe that just because he says he is not a cop, he is not cop. Please identify this wonderful corporation you work for that can give pensions equal to the $85,000 that Naperville gives former Captain Marshall! I seriously doubt you will be getting any pension that would give you anywhere near 85k by age 51. You are simply a hot air balloon full of itself!

And you Nancy, want us to believe that just because you say you are smart, you are smart. Unfortunately, your rantings show otherwise.
I posted long ago on this thread what union I belonged to and it has nothing to do with any corporation, but it is partially funded by taxpayers when we do work on public projects, and for that I thank you. I'll give you a hint, since you seemed to have missed it the first time; IUOE Local 150.

Nancy wrote;
(I once pleaded innocent to a traffic ticket in Dupage. The cop was not there. They simply asked me to come back at a later date when they would arrange for the cop to be there.

OMG, that is the funniest thing I have read on this blog yet. Nancy, I to have shown up in court on two different occasions for traffic offenses and the officer didn't show. Of course the prosecutor wants a continuance, but after informing the Judge that I did my part, taking off work, showing up for my day in court and how it really isn't fair for me to have to take more time off work because the prosecutor can't get his witness to show up, both times the tickets got dismissed. It is really too bad you didn't know your rights Nancy, but it isn't surprising.

Nancy wrote;
And really RJ you want us to finance police and fire pension to the tune of 21% from our taxpayer hard earned dollars. Just like the corporate world got rid of these pensions, it is time the government world also get rid of them.

The corporate world got rid of pensions for the middle management and lower type employees, yet the upper management still get great pensions and salaries. Amazing how the good corporate lemmings bought into how it was necessary to save the company money to remain competitive. Funny thing though, the executives never seem to lose anything, nor do the the prices charged for the companies goods and or services ever decrease. How does it feel to work so hard to make sure the Boss has a Golden Pension Nancy?
Just because you have no problem with companies outsourcing, cutting pay and benefits, don't expect everyone else to be on board with it. Some of us prefer to make a good wage and have something to retire on, besides Social Security that is.

Responding first to Anonymous 5/30 10:39pm:

Should Naperville go to an alderman form of city government? I'm conflicted on this. Would make it easier for newcomers to be elected b/c they'd only have to appeal to the voters in their district. Would provide each district with a specific Councilman to bring concerns to. But would also potentially divide the City if districts compete with one another for limited resources.

Should Naperville do away with a city manager and have a full time Mayor? Probably not. We'd then have to pay the Mayor (and maybe Councilman) as full-time workers, and restrict the pool of candidates to those who can afford to do that (I couldn't). You'd also have the potential for discontinuity if the Mayor position changes frequently and patronage if it doesn't Naperville voters adopted the Council/Manager form of government years ago and could just as easily go back to a Strong Mayor form like Aurora has.

Should home rule powers be reversed? Again, probably not. We'd then be beholden to other governmental entities for our revenue.

If change is needed, who will lead it the city council or the citizens? Both. Citizens will need to elect reform-oriented Councilmen to effect major change. Some of the citizens who want reform will have to step up and offer themselves as candidates.

Does the city council want to have a hand in designing what governance will look like in Naperville in the years to come or be told by the citizens how you will be allowed to govern? That's what happens naturally under our current system. Citizens tell the Council how to govern by whom they elect. I don't know any mechanism by which citizens can directly amend our Municipal Code or direct how city services should be funded other than through their elected representatives. In that regard, Naperville's system, like the state and federal systems, are republics more than democracies (we must be OK with that because every time we pledge allegiance, we do it "to the REPUBLIC for which it stands"). In other words, to make change, get elected.

Ernie 5/31 10:35am - You've asked some good questions and make some good points about cutting expenses and reducing taxes. I intend to provide answers, but I'll need until early next week to get info to do that.

Enjoy the weekend everybody!! (Happy b'day to me, tomorrow 6/1.) ~CB,

You threatened to run to Jim Lynch if Ted did not cease admonishing you, Belinda. I have heard a rumor that Ted has been out of the office and will be until next week. Wonder who admonished you?

====================================================================

Ken,
I like how you are starting rumors.

Most people on these blogs know that Moderator Jim responds in a box. Host Ted responds at the end of a post. This has been a pattern for a very long time....possibly for the entire duration!

Only someone as dense as you would not make that simple observation for a YEAR and a HALF!

Belinda knew exactly who admonished her because it was at the end of her post. She had a right to appeal and she did. She apparently has no further complaints with Sun Officials! Why are you trying to stir the pot, Ken?

Ken, TB, and RJ,

Now that you guys have lost Joe, you remind me of the Three Stooges.

None of what you guys say makes any sense...none of you have the semblance of COMMON SENSE!

1. If Lisle pays a Captain 61,000, it is OK for us to pay a captain 85,000 because we are 4 times larger. Sorry, Ken, we have 4 Captains instead of their 1, and we should not have to pay more than a quality town like Lisle pays out for pension!

2. RJ believes you get what you pay for....that is a sucker's statement. Take that elsewhere!

3. T.B. thinks we should pay police OT at these Charity Events...really T.B. How about letting the NPD have second jobs and work these charities for market rates...that being 25 dollars an hour instead of 75 dollars an hour? We would have the same exact police you feel are irreplaceable for one third of the price? All it would take is for Councilman Bob to introduce legislation and get 4 council members to agree with him. That should not be difficult! Please consider this Councilman Bob! Thank you! And thanks for bloggin with us and providing that information to Belinda!

4. RJ believes his non-government pension which is earned in a competitive market should justify police and fire pensions which are to a great degree are gifts from taxpayers.

5. T.B. does not want anyone speculating and he speculates Belinda is full of "hatred." That is so laughable! Belinda simply wants to remain a Naperville resident. She should not have to give up her home because the majority of our city council is unwilling to deal with excess fat rampant throughout the city.

6. RJ wants us to believe that just because he says he is not a cop, he is not cop. Please identify this wonderful corporation you work for that can give pensions equal to the $85,000 that Naperville gives former Captain Marshall! I seriously doubt you will be getting any pension that would give you anywhere near 85k by age 51. You are simply a hot air balloon full of itself!

7. I find it odd that these GOT(Group of Three) blame all the Napergate Man and Napergatian references to people trying to have there taxes reduced. It seems on this latest thread they initiated all these references when anyone suggested some expense reduction by the City.

8. Ken as "Anonymous" so succinctly stated has no common sense or at best "hollow sense." Since he can not argue, his vocabulary appears limited to the "Napergate Cult is the root of all evil." Who is going to believe the Napergate Cult is responsible for the 6-8 million the City of Naperville spends on OT of which the NPD is responsible for about half? Who is going to believe the Napergate Cult is responsible for those 14 police officers sitting uselessly in Dupage Courtrooms collecting OT from us taxpayers? Who is going to believe the Naperville Cult raised our taxes 20% this year? Common Ken, get some common sense instead of "hollow sense."

9. And T.B. remains his circular self justifying and unjustifying at the same time. He wants us to look at other OT besides the SCAM charity OT. When we looked at OT resulting from police sitting in jury boxes like potted plants, he blamed it on the Chief Judge...how convenient! Yes, who is going to believe the Chief Judge orders our police to be in these courtrooms but not the police of the other 50 or so cities in Dupage County! Most likely the Chief Judge only asks for police to be there when needed....when necessary...when a defendant pleads innocent to a traffic charge. Not when 300 people are in an assembly line pleading guilty all morning long. Common, TB, get some common sense...don't be hollow like Ken!

(I once pleaded innocent to a traffic ticket in Dupage. The cop was not there. They simply asked me to come back at a later date when they would arrange for the cop to be there. I believe it was Willowbrook. They did not have cops sitting in the jury boxes collecting OT for ENRICHMENT...only in insane Naperville is there such waste of taxpayer money. I hope you hear my plea for help, Councilman Bob.)

10. And really RJ you want us to finance police and fire pension to the tune of 21% from our taxpayer hard earned dollars. Just like the corporate world got rid of these pensions, it is time the government world also get rid of them. If they want to pay 9% into these pension funds that is great. That may get them $2,000 a month when they retire. But to expect us taxpayers to pay 21% and if their pension manager screws up to replenish it for them all over again is utter nonsense.

____________________________________________________________________

I do hope Mr. Jim Lynch does something about this craziness. The incompetence of some members of our City Council in allowing City Employees to have whatever they want has reached levels of INTOLERANCE! Levels of INSANITY!

____________________________________________________________________

Finally, I would like to issue a special thank you to Councilman Bob. I think it speaks volumes of him to be willing to communicate with us regarding our concerns. I hope he sets an example to other council members to step forward and take our concerns seriously. The Napergate Twist that annoys you and us is caused by the Three Stooges my letter is addressed to. If you study these threads carefully in the last few months, you can see they accuse anyone who is against CITY WASTE and/or for a REDUCTION IN TAXES of being a Napergatian....even if he or she never heard of Napergate as may have been the case of Belinda who was simply concerned about her high real estate tax bill! She made that very clear from the onset and Three Stooges wasted no time in labeling her a NAPERGATIAN! I am certain you followed that exchange as you were part of it!

Beilen, don't you think pensions kick in earlier for stressful jobs such as police and firemen for a reason? While you may favor a police or fire department full of 50 year old men, I think a younger department is more beneficial to the public. At 40, I still felt I could conquer the world. As I approach 50, I realize I may need help conquering the world. I am sure that as I approach 60, I will want to negotiate peace instead of fighting.

That is why pensions were created and preserved, not to mention the fact that government employees used to be underpaid compared to private sector employees. The fact that so many middle management people take deep pay cuts should not be taken out on those who chose government employment when it did not appear to be the best choice. Now the people that many of you seem to look down upon are the ones laughing last.

Anonymouse 8:30am, I don't think all are born with common sense. In fact, the napergate cult shows that does not happen. Common sense should be acquired as you live life. It seems that many here have led a very narrow life and lack in common sense because of it, you included. As for facts, I and others have posted them here, but sense you lack common sense, you cannot seem to comprehend them. By the way, for one whose only point seems to be an attack post now and then, you seem to demand a lot more of others than of yourself. Typical of one who lacks any common sense.

Councilman Bob,

I work for a Fortune 100 corporation. Yes, we do make a lot of money and it takes a lot of hard work to find new and different ways to be more efficient with money. Every year for the last 12 to 15 years every manager who is accountable for any type of financials has been under pressure to reduce the expenses in their department. The more they can reduce expenses and help contribute to corporate profitability the higher their performance evaluation which translates into better pay and bonus. What that effectively means is that we have held or reduced our expenses for over a decade which is a significant accomplishment.

You wrote earlier that loosing good people was a concern to you. That is noble. Please recognize that the opposite effect can occur when the wrong people infiltrate an organization. If every organization does not purge the people who are not the best fit for the job it will stagnate and limit it's opportunities to grow and perform at peak capabilities.

No one is suggesting that city employees should receive less than a fair wage in terms of market value. No one is suggesting city employees should receive benefits that are less than what might be considered the norm by today's standards. At the same time there is an enormous sense of entitlement among government workers that has been allowed to develop... this overriding attitude and belief that government pay and benefits can not and will not be changed to conform with the rest of our society.

This sense of entitlement also plays out in other ways such as a "we" versus "the taxpayer" attitude that almost suggest city employees think and believe it is their city and they can and will run it any way they see fit. Part of this is best exemplified in a common, but misplaced expression used by city workers who tend to refer to "our citizens" or "our taxpayers". Interesting use of the possessive tense don't you think?

Councilman,

It has been mentioned on these sites that a huge amount of police OT is because so many police officers have to travel to Wheaton and Joliet and pretty much do nothing all day until someone decides to dispute his traffic ticket.

Downers Grove which is less than one third of our size has their own fieldhouse. We are a city of nearly 150,000 residents. Having our own fieldhouse like Downers Grove would reduce police OT substantially. Combine that with a reduction in pension benefits and the taxpayer will see real savings!

A police officer can be patrolling and when called he can come to a nearby fieldhouse in the center of town. So what if there is a 10 minute delay until he arrives. Most of us go to court and wait hours and many times the city or state prosecutor asks for continuance after continuance. It is rare that a police officer will ever be called anyway. But if he is called he should be able to arrive while already on duty while another officer covers for him. Watching 14 police officers sitting in a jury box in Dupage collecting OT is very sickening to me as a taxpayer! And to think there may be another dozen of them in Joliet doing the same as their colleagues in Dupage makes me even sicker.

Instead of having 14 police officers in Dupage and 12 others in Joliet all collecting OT, you can have one ROVING police officer to fill in for any police officer out of these 26 who may be called if we had our own Court Fieldhouse. As we all know being called is rare since we mostly all plead guilty to our traffic violations.

And think of all the time and gas you would save residents if they could come to a Naperville Fieldhous instead of travel 15-20 miles to Wheaton or Joliet. With gas skyrocketing to $4.29 this is something every resident will appreciate. And of course the police dept. will also save an enormous amount of gas which could result in addtional tax savings to hard pressed residents.

And please check to see if the police are truly required to be In Dupage and Will County for these traffic sessions. Other towns seem to bring their cops only in the afternoon to confront those who plead innocent. Naperville seems to have their cops there in the morning which is usually when everyone pleads guilty and is given supervision! Could you please tell me why they have to be there if other towns in Dupage don't have to be there till the afternoon, councilman!

This combined with all that OT for the Charity Fests could probably eliminate most of this unnessary police OT. Scheduling police officers to only work 36 hours a week since they allegedly make so many arrests in their final hour of work will give them 40 hours anyway.

I really do think the City Council should seriously start looking into police waste! It is there! You simply have to call Chief Dial out! I believe he is a good man and will respond if pressured and told the taxpayers are saying enough is enough!

Thank you for your concern councilman!

Councilman Bob,

I came to blog today because I saw you on this site. Your presence indicates you care. I appreciate that.

My issue is not only with the police dept...but with all depts. in the city that are being wasteful. I do not believe the massive increase on my tax bill was solely the responsibility of Chief Dial although he contributed to the problem immensely with the out of control OT in his department!

I would like to ask you to submit a proposal to your fellow council members demanding all City Depts. reduce all expenses by 5%. Asking for a reduction of only 5% from police OT is like putting a band aid on a cut that requires stitches. It just won't work or hold!

Why did you not ask Chief Dial to cut total expenses 5%? Why not ask the other depts. to also cut total expenses 5%? It has been reported that CEO Davis of Edwards Hospital recently instituted over a 130 employee lay-off combined with many other cuts to help in these dire economic conditions. No one even pushed her. She knew what she had to do, and did it.

In the City of Naperville we push and ask you daily to cut expenses and reduce our taxes....no one responds and no one seems to care! Why?

Councilman Bob,

Host Ted once said the Napergate Man was very successful in effecting policy and bringing changes in the 1990s because the City of Naperville gave him huge gaping holes to work from. He stated something along the line that City Officials had lost their credibilty.

I see something very similar happeing in our government. I see a loss of credibility all over again. I see an out of control city government that takes care of its own at any expense to the residential taxpayer.

This is the scenario that brought the Napergate Man. This is a scenario that may bring him back or someone like him back.

Personally, I feel the new Naperville Sun has been laying the foundation to take on the role that the Napergate Man left vacant. If you study Mr. Jim Lynch very carefully, you see he is ready to be the new Napergate Man.

The reassignment of Principal Caudill took place after his efforts on this Blog Site and in his wonderful editorial. As one blogger stated on another site he did prove the POWER OF INK!

I suspect he will use the POWER OF INK to straighten City Hall just as the Napergate Man did. And I predict he will be very SUCCESSFUL!

RJ, TB and Ken,

You seemed to be worried about police officers not being able to make a career change in their early 50s after they retire.

Their odds of making career change are as good as anyone in the private sector. Many secutiy companies like hiring former police officers.

But what you are all missing, is that a police officer is not required to retire at 51 after 30 years on the job. He is allowed to work till 55 or even 60 if he so chooses. After 30 years they qualify for pension...that is it!

However since pension for a police officer in Naperville is astronimcal, they choose to retire at an early age because they want to collect. No one forced Mr. Marshall to retire at age 51. He was in excellent shape and had many more years left in him.

He choose to retire because of dollars and cents. He simply calculated that if the Naperville Tapayers are willing to pay me 85,000 for not working and 113,000 for working, only a fool would continue working. He is no fool! He retired by choice...he was not required to RETIRE!

If the mandatory retirement age was 60, he would have worked till age 60. If the mandatory retirment age was set at 60, and police officers were not allowed to retire at age 51, taxpayers would have to contribute much less to these police pensions. Chopping 9 years of pension pay from each police officer or firemen would be a huge savings to the taxpayer.

The argument by some of you is that a police officer can no longer run after a gang banger and catch him at age 51. Most police officers can't catch a gang banger at age 40 in a foot race. Should we retire them at age 40 for that reason? Some would say a police officer can't wrestle a gang banger at age 35. Should we reitre him that young for that reason?

Most female police officers that are 21 can not handle a 275 pound gang banger. Shold we not hire female police officers because they do not have chance to wrestle a 275 gang banger or chase after a Kenyan runner? Those arguments are all without foundation.

Police operate skillfully and rarely get in a foot race with a suspect or tackle a suspect one on one. They achieve their goals by teaming up on suspects. Everyone knows that!

In conclusion, police officers are not required to retire at age 51.They don't have to make a career change at age 51. They don't have to look for another job at age 51. Those are all choices they make!

They are retiring at age 51 because they suckered our City Officials through their union to give them these enormous pesnions at age 51. They are not retiring at age 51 because they are incapable of performing their duties. They are not retiring because they are disabled. They are retiring because of the WINDFALL HANDOUT that awaits them IF THEY RETIRE! And with their WINDFALL HANDOUTS at taxpayer expense awaiting them, why not retire in their PRIME when they can run 26 mile marathons!

Mr. Bob Marshall took advantage of a broken system. He did what most police officers would do if presented with an ENORMOUS HANDOUT mostly at TAXPAYER EXPENSE. Our former City Councils failed us for allowing such an unjust pension plan. Let us hope our new City Council can fix the BROKEN UNDERFUNDED PENSION FUND! Not give it yet another HANDOUT at taxpayer expense to OVERFUND it all over again! The solution is to delay police retirement age to 60 years old!

Social Security requires us to work till age 70 to be fully funded. Many of us have jobs that are much more stressful than police officers. We are giving police officers a break if we let them retire 10 years before the civilian population is allowed to retire. What a double standard that the government has implemented against the CIVILIAN TAXPAYER!

Dearest Ken,

I hate to have to be the one to point this out to you, but the one glaring fallacy with YOUR argument is that there simply is no such thing as "common sense". At best common sense is only a hollow term. At worse it wrongfully attempts to suggest we all are born with the lame level of ingrained or even instinctive knowledge.

Sorry, you will have to come up with something a lot better than common sense to make your point. Try making some factual points. Objective points would be even better. Try bringing something to the discussion that we can all sink our teeth into that will provoke thought instead of laughter.

We all have our subjective opinions but especially with your methods and style you are not going to be very successful at persuading anyone to switch over to your point of view. More likely you are just causing other posters to dig in their heels and disagree with you on principal.

All of the constant personal attacks, all the constant belittling of other posters is getting rather tiring and does not help you establish credibility.
Tearing others down does not and will not build you up.

Just though you would like to know!

Hugs and kisses

Councilman Bob,

If it is perfectly ok and legal for private sector corporations to change their benefit plans or even in some cases to abolish them then why in the world should retirement plans or benefit programs in the government sector be sacred cows?

This question, in part, has to be answered honestly by saying does Naperville offer less than, equal to, or better than what is offered everywhere else? And when we talk about what is offered we have to look at the total of what we offer as opposed to the total of what someone else may offer... meaning we may offer more in salary and less in benefits and someone else may offer less in salary and more in benefits and together they cost taxpayers about the same. In other words we must be sure we are comparing like with like.

Having said that I think we all have to realize that private sector corporations are under the same pressure that they may loose good people. The reality is that those same good people may choose to leave anyway for other reasons like career opportunities. We mislead ourselves if we believe they are all going to stay here forever and be happy.

Government sector employment is not keeping in tune with current management practices which are being utilized in the private sector. Instead of increased efficiency, instead of increased productivity we see increased head counts. We see huge pay raises. We see benefit packages that are extinct in the private sector.

There is a lot we don't know about all the pay and benefits because a lot of it is a pretty closely played hand. I'm sure there are others who would like to know a lot more about what goes on with the government sector pay and benefits... as in what is required by law and what is at the discretion of the city.

There are a lot of Naperville taxpayers who probably read what you wrote earlier about being presented a number by an actuary and are somewhat slack jawed that the number just moved into the budget as a line item without much to do or fanfare. I guess what we expect of our elected officials is to not just accept as gospel what city staff recommends, but to ask some tough questions about necessity, requirements, comparisons, market comparisons, fair value, etc. to verify that the line item is in the best interest of the taxpayers who elected you to represent their interest. Yes, we do want to keep the employees at city hall relatively satisfied so that there isn't turmoil and the essential work is actually getting done efficiently. I'd don't think anyone is going to dispute the idea that city staff isn't going to be recommending a figure that isn't in their best interest. The bigger question though is is their recommendation in the best interest of the taxpayer.

Maybe, in all honesty, this would be a good area to create a citizen run commission to help out the city council. In a lot of ways I think many would view it as an enormous conflict of interest for the city staff to be recommending their own pay and benefit packages and to maybe first clear this through a citizen run commission would help restore confidence in how all of this is handled. People are already boiling over on the police overtime issue. Add to that the number of people who are out of work or working below where they used to due to layoffs, etc and coupled with property tax raises year after year and I think the city council, the school board, and all of the other government agencies that are getting their fair share of our property tax maney better be acutely aware that an enormous backlash is brewing.

There is talk about should Naperville go to an alderman form of city government? Should Naperville do away with a city manager and have a full time Mayor? Should home rule powers be reversed? Plus a few other ideas that question the status quo that has existed for too long in Naperville. All of this begs the question of whether or not change is needed in Naperville city government? If change is needed, who will lead it the city council or the citizens? In other words does the city council want to have a hand in designing what governance will look like in Naperville in the years to come or be told by the citizens how you will be allowed to govern?

For me the biggest issue facing city governance is transparency. I am sick and tired of all the secrets, all the closed meetings, all the back room dealings. This is an enormous and sensitive issue for all of our younger citizens as well.

You know one of the things that has always ticked me off about the Open Meetings Act? The Act allows certain topics to be discussed in private. However, let me point out that the Act does not mandate that these topics always be discussed in private. That is a discretionary decision. Most citizens believe that many other topics are being discussed in closed meetings than just what is allowed by the Act. Do any council members ever actually speak up and say hey we shouldn't be discussing this topic in here we have to discuss this in the open meeting? Inquiring minds would like to know!

RJ,

I am very happy you work for a private employer and can receive a large pension. As long as your private employer can be competitive giving you guys huge pensions, more power to him and to you.

Those pensions are truly earned by you and your employer. If that pension money was not invested properly in 2000 and 2001, you would suffer the consequences. No one will bail you out!

Government pensions are a totally different beast. Basically if the pension investors of the city lost those pension funds in the 2000 and 2001 stock market bubble, we the taxpayers are responsible to replinish them in a way so police men and firemen can still get their 85k or whatever. Just tax the Naperville residents for what we lost. This seems to be what has happened. The pensions were destroyed in the market collapse and now we are being taxed to replinish all the losses the funds encountered. That just does not seem fair!

I lost most of my 401k because my corporation did not retain the right company to invest it properly. We simply can't get it back. So why should city employees be guaranteed their pensions when who ever is managing those pensions has acheived louzy investment returns on their money!

It just seem to me that their is a double standard. A guarantee for one group that is not available to another group. If your company failed you, RJ, and could no longer make pension contributions for you, that would be it. You would accept it and move on. In the City of Naperville everything is guaranteed by the taxpayers...as if we have very deep pockets....as if we are the FDIC!!!

Competitive forces keep your pension in check. If your company can compete and give you 200k per year in pension retirment money, I have no problem with that. I wish you well. But the City of Naperville is not competing. Someone has to put controls on them. Otherwise they do as they please. Suddenly we are hearing the pensions are UNDERFUNDED! Why? Did the pension manager screw up?

Why can't gainfully employed police officers be delayed in receiving their pensions when UNDERFUNDING occurs? Can you imagine how much that would save a pension funds if they did not have to pay Mr. Marshall until he truly retired. Since they are struggling and underfunded, they should be doing certain things to strengthen their pensions.

But they are doing nothing. Because they believe they have an oil pipeline that has connections to every taxpayers pockets. To me that is not fair! It needs to be stopped.

Comparing your pension which is fair and square to a government pension which is not fair and square is like comparing apples to oranges!

Looks like someone fired up the old napergate cult email network again. Belinda must have realized she was losing the debate, when she could actually debate and not name call, and sent out an SOS. Now we have the obligatory cult posts patting her on the back, claiming she has facts in her argument, and asking that posters who disagree with her to be warned or banned. Caroline even managed to post the whole napergate man saga again while she was attacking Councilman Bob for daring to question the napergate cult's insistence of not letting the past go.

So much to address since I last posted (two days ago, even though one of the napergate cult's lies is the often stated claim that I post here 24/7). In no particular order:

Belinda, why is it okay with you for a town one sixth the size of Naperville (Lisle) to pay a fire captain $62,000 in pension, but not okay for a much larger city to pay a former high ranking police officer $20,000 more? This, like many of your arguments, does not make any sense. Do you approve of this pension just because the man earning it is your friend? By the way, since you continue to ignore the fact that social security is not supposed to be a pension, how do you justify the fact that your friend's pension is almost three times what anyone else would get from social security (your argument, not mine)?

You threatened to run to Jim Lynch if Ted did not cease admonishing you, Belinda. I have heard a rumor that Ted has been out of the office and will be until next week. Wonder who admonished you?

Next up, the laughable claim by Caroline that identifying one's self by the same name will bring police harassment to posters. Does that mean that anyone the NPD pulls over named Ken is going to be let off because I support their right to get the pension their union bargained for? I know it is hard, but try to use a little common sense.

Common sense also figures in reaching the conclusion that the napergatians hate the police. Since these are written debates, one has to look at the tone of the posts. Belinda's tone, and many other napergatian's tone, clearly show a lack of respect and hatred for the police. All because they feel their leader should have been above the law.

Common sense, Caroline, would dictate that a city the size of Naperville would have good benefits for their workers so they can attract the best of the available candidates. Councilman Bob pointed out this common sense fact, and that is where you turned on him. T.B. also points this out, and you hysterically say that he can give up his house to support the pensions, but you won't. This is about as clever as claiming the GOF will pay $5,000 over invoice on a vehicle, or overtime to a air conditioner repairman, or whatever other silly example the cult dreams up when they have no facts to support their arguments.

Once again, the hilarious statement that the members of the GOF must be policeman has come up. This is almost as good as the statement that we chased away 500 napergatians. By the way, I was very upset that one of you gave Ted credit for doing this after attributing it to us. Make up your minds. The laughable statement was also made that the napergatians chased away two of the GOF. Does this mean that the GOF chased away 490 of the napergatians?

Moving on, I don't think Council Man Bob has much to worry about from a non-existent slate of napergatian candidates. Without a leader to put up money and actually use his real name, there is not much danger of the cult gaining power.

Caroline-

OK, hatred maybe too harsh. How about apparent hatred? Still too harsh? Distrust? Still too harsh? Well, I'm sorry.

You and Belinda appear to like to lable people who happen to disagree. I happen to "hate" that. You may think I'm a cop trying to protect my own ass. You're wrong. I just happen to value safety and those that serve and protect us. Belinda is dead wrong when she says that none of the force would leave if the pay, benefits, or pension were to be cut. Plenty would leave. They have families, too.

The car analogy has been used a few times here. People have said paying sticker price is for suckers. I agree, though I say that paying extra for side curtain airbags or a five-star rated car is worth every penny if I'm in an accident.

One of my main issues with the police pensions and Belinda's attitude towards them is she's asking someone to give us their most productive years and then just discard them in their 50's and say find another career. Not just another job, but another career. Too bad you chose to help us so now you're screwed. This isn't easy to do at that age and these people have families to support, kids to put through college, and mortgages to pay. Would you take a job knowing you'd get canned at age 57 (or there-abouts) without a pension?

Just as you think I stand up for anything to do with the city (I don't), the Napergatians appear to stand against anything that may benefit the police dept. I think they distrust the dept for many reasons, none of which need to be discussed here now. I think we all know what I'm talking about.

I don't want to see my taxes increase any more, either, but I think there are plenty of other ways to fight tax increases. How about talking about the 97% of the police OT that is not fest-related? How about asking why are we paying 1% on food and beverages for boondoggles like the Carillon? How about the new public works building? The test track? Waste in the school districts and their contracts? There are many ways in which money is wasted around here, but we all need to be kept safe. I think that's money well spent. Period.

That's all, Caroline. Have a good weekend.

T.B.

Caroline;
You must have missed the post where I told Belinda that I am not a police officer.

I am in a union, and believe in people getting a good pension for their years of hard work and dedication. I don't know anyone that would sit back and think nothing of losing benefits they have gotten for years, except maybe cubicle dwellers that have been convinced it is so the company can reduce cost to stay competitive. Funny thing about that, while the company keeps taking from the grunts, the executive pay and benefits keep going up. Oh well, I digress.

Maybe if I didn't have a great pension where I work, I might be jealous of those who do, but I have never been into that class envy crap that seems to run rampant in the Napergate community.I chose my career,partly because I knew that I would have great benefits, including a pension.

Councilman Bob;
Thank you for reiterating my point that if the NPD were to cut the pension pay package, there would be an exodus of current employees. Part of the reason Naperville has the high quality personnel in the Police department is they have a great wage and pension package.If that were to be cut, or lowered for new hires, then the quality of employees would be greatly reduced, as the best would look to other towns that realize they need to pay well to attract good employees.

Years ago, companies used to pay well and provide health benefits and pensions, but someone figured out that all they had to do is convince the employees that times are tough, and to stay competitive, they had to make cuts, and then brainwashed the employees how the greedy unions are ruining the country, and it obviously worked, as evident by the the Napergatians incessant whining. LOL!

By T.B. on May 30, 2008 2:08 PM
Belinda-

Why must you speculate about someone just because they happen to disagree with you? Does your seeming hatred for anyone in uniform mean you’re some deranged criminal just out to get the police? No, get my point?

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TB,

You seem to contadict yourself. You oppose Belinda speculating but than you speculate she has "hatred" for anyone in uniform.

Belinda never said she had "hatred" for men in blue. She just thinks they over spend and wants expenses brought back to reasonable and competitive levels.

So please stop accusing others of speculating while you speculate. If you have an MBA as you allege, you would have understood that Belinda is simply dissappointed her taxes went up from 10,300 to 12,000. That is her motive...not HATRED!

What is your motive that you want police officers to have a better retirement than yourself? Is anyone putting 21.16% in your pension or savings account besides what you contribute for yourself to retire? Why do you feel you are not worthy of being treated like a policeman or fireman? I always thought MBAs were the engine that run our economy! You are just as important as a policeman or fireman!

Without you there would be no economy to pay them! Therefore you should be treated equally.

If you want to give them all your money that is OK, T.B.! Give them your house, too! But the rest of us do not want to give them all our money to the point we can no longer afford our homes. What is so hard for you to COMPREHEND? This is not rocket science and it is certainly not "HATRED."

It is TAXATION 101!!!

By Councilman Bob on May 30, 2008 12:46 PM

One other thing: Why does Napergate Man keep coming up again and again?? I too was around when he waged his campaign in the press about then-Mayor Sam Macrane's effort to close down his liquor operation. But I really don't view him as some sort of martyr, any more than some other community activists who've taken flack, just because he chose to communicate his views via full-page newspaper ads. There's even a group that calls themselves Napergatians!! Frankly, when I see the word "Napergate" I just move on to the next posting. And I'm probably the only Councilman who has the patience to read these blog postings in the first place!! Later, ~CB.

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Councilman Bob,

You have asked for our respect and we have given it to you. You have asked us to be civil and we are trying to be civil. I personally consider you "Establishment" and I respect you and would like to communicate with you.

In the interest of full disclosure, I am one of those Napergatians who is proud to be a Napergatian and has been blogging on here for a year and a half. I am sure the Moderator recognizes me from my e-mail address which has been the same from day one and he is fully aware I am a Napergatian.

Just like we respect you at some point you are going to have reciprocate and respect us. We consider ourselves a Naperville Party known as the Napergate Party. Not some kind of radical group trying to overthrow government through a coup. We try to bring change through elections as our constitution allows.

No one is saying the Napergate Man is a martyr. But you indirectly tried to put him down as if he is a nobody!

Maybe you missed a lot of his Napergate Ads. Yes, he did publicize his liquor case but apparently you were out of the country when he did many other things for this town that had nothing to do with his liquor proceedings.

1. He ran slates of City Council Candidates during election time using those same full page ads. He was very successful in getting many city council candidates elected between 1995 to 2001. In one election in which you did not run, he got all 4 of his endorsed Napergate Slate of candidates elected. Check the old editions of the Naperville Sun at the library...they are there for your review in case you were vacationing in Tahiti or Hawaii!

2. When the Brestal Law Firm controlled the City Council in the 90s, residents from many subdivisions asked him for his help, and he provided it, again using his full page ads, his organizational skills, and his deep grass roots movement. Apparently, you were not on the council when they flip flopped about 7 times before he and his supporters finally pressured them to do the right thing on Spring Green. Those supporters who appeared before the City Council on that issue and many other zoning issues are Napergatians. They are not evil aliens from another planet. They are taxpaying residents of Naperville who loves Naperville just as much as you do Councilman Bob!

Prior to the involvement of the Napergate Man, the Brestal Law Firm gave council members large campaign contributions and the council members rubber stamped 99% of his development projects. In fairness, it is important to note that you were NOT part of those corrupt former councils. He exposed that corruption in his Napergate ads and it is believed these contribution checks from the Brestal Law Firm in return for FAVORABLE VOTING did stop...thankfully!!!

3. Even before his very long liquor battles he was instrumental in getting the City Council to reverse a vote against ATT from 7-0, to 0-7. You may not be aware but a city council that did not include you gave the City Phone contract to MCI to save a half a penny per resident per year, outraging 7600 ATT employees working in Naperville who were ready to launch an electronic war against City Hall.

4. It is also undisputed that the Napergate Man has always confiscated more IDs than all other establishments in Naperville combined. Several thousand! By denying liquor to irresponsible minors by CONFISCATING their fraudulent IDs for nearly 30 years, he has probably saved more young lives than probably the entire Naperville Police Dept. His friends on this blog site including Bob, Mike and Liquor Man Rick report that his confiscation of IDs remains relentless to this day. I can't recall numbers but I believe in a recent 2 month period he confiscated another 30 or so! Apparently they are turned into the Mayor directly when he sees him so you have a way of verifying blog site comments!

5. I can go on with his accomplishments and involvement in bettering our town. But since you read the blogs, I am sure you know what they are. I really don't know what City Officials have against this man...it really disturbs me.

6. If a Wehrli or Moser relative would have won the National Award for being the Best Retailer Against Minors in the Nation, you guys would be bestowing additional honors on him or her before the City Council meetings on Tuesdays. I watch those City Council meetings every Tuesday and I see what happens.

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All I am trying to say to you Councilman Bob is that respect is a two way street. We will respect you, but please respect us. We will be civil to you but please be civil to us. You are in power and we understand that. One day the Napergate Party may be in power and I hope you can DEAL with that! Be assured if we are ever in power, we will show you the utmost decency and apply discretion to all equally whether one is in the Establishment Party or Napergate Party. We only ask that you extend the same courtesy to us while you are in POWER!

By Councilman Bob on May 29, 2008 11:11 PM
After posting my last comment, I had one further thought: In the interest of open government, but also at the risk of opening a Pandora's Box of commentary and criticism, you should know that Naperville City Councilmen are, besides being elected officials, also city employees. We receive a pay-as-you-go amount ($10K/year), as well as benefits (health insurance if desired, life insurance, a $50/month cell phone allowance, a $50/month home internet service allowance

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Councilman Bob,
I appreciate the full disclosure statement you made above. I think that was a class act on your part.

Secondly, I have no problem with your compensation. If anything, I think Councilmembers are underpaid especially compared to police and fire personnel. I understand that you are underpaid because you are truly a public servant not in this for the money.

Having said that please don't misinterpret that I am pushing for a raise for you. I am not! These are tough economic times and I would like to see a lot of excess fat in the city eliminated.

To the best of my knowledge there is no excess fat in the Mayor's office or in the City Council other than a few hundred dollars of magazines that I could care less about. But I beleive the councilmembers are the key to eliminating the excess fat thoughout the city infrastructure. It is there, someone has to find it. If Edward's Hospital can find so much excess fat, the City of Naperville should be able to find some too!

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FYI you are not the only city councilmember monitoring these blogs.
Many people who know Mr. Krause and Mr. Furstenau have been told they also monitor these blogs very carefully.

I do not know anything about the other 6 council members but I have to suspect they peek in once in a while. It would also be unimaginable to believe City Manager Bob Marshall is not reading what people are saying about him. He wants the job permanently and he understands he has to be on the right side of the community to have a chance at making his employment permanent. He is going to pop on here to get the pulse of the community. Let us not kid each other and pretend city officials have no patience for this INFORMATIVE and EDUCATIONAL BLOG SITE!

Marshal –

I was wondering when some Napergatian would throw down the “ganged up on [like] Diane” card out there. I knew it was just a matter of time.

I’m ruthless and mean but Belinda is benign? Have you read this on this thread: “Stop being stupid, silly and ignorant on this important Blog Site!”? That was from Belinda, not me (May 27th @ 8:18 PM).

I’ve presented my point of view in a civil manner, but I happen to disagree with Belinda. Most people seem to understand that two people can have widely differing views on issues; she just can’t seem to comprehend this for some reason.

T.B.

Joan –

Please re-visit the police OT thread and you will see that my position was and always has been that I think the police OT for the fests is money well spent; however, I think the fests should reimburse the city from non-taxpayer-provided funds.

I continue to question the other 97% of police OT spent by the city, but the Napergatians were (and remain) completely fixated on the 3% used for the fests.

T.B.

Belinda-

Your style is odd to me. You say I keep repeating myself so that maybe I’ll be believed, yet you continue to repeat some of the same garbage over and over again. Are you trying to convince yourself or others?

I am not a police officer hoping to protect my pension. I have stated that in the past and yet you can’t just seem to be able to read and comprehend that. Why must you speculate about someone just because they happen to disagree with you? Does your seeming hatred for anyone in uniform mean you’re some deranged criminal just out to get the police? No, get my point?

I am not for hirer taxes and rampant police OT. Nice try at a very Maryann-like twisting of what I have written. What I do support, however, are professional and well-trained police and fire forces. That costs money. The only difference between us, it seems, is that I think this is money well spent while you seem to think we should go the cheap route and watch our best and brightest flee to other municipalities which value their services.

Police and fire fighters are allowed to collect Social Security, as long as they’ve paid in the required number of quarters (which I believe to be 40 quarters). So a firefighter with a second job or a police officer who happened to have another job at some time can qualify for Social Security. Just FYI.

I have to disagree with your statement that Social Security and pensions were created for the same purpose. While they’re both for your retired years, pensions are meant to be a person’s retirement income while Social Security is meant to be a supplement or a social safety net. Anyone counting on living solely on their Social Security benefits in their retirement is a fool.

I have said a few times now that Marshal is an exception (and exceptional at his age to be running so far), but not the rule. Police and fire work can and does get strenuous and thus there are mandatory retirement ages. While Marshal may be able to run down most criminals, are you saying he could tackle and apprehend them, too? There’s more to this than you seem to realize. And you have yet to explain how you expect police officers and fire fighters to change careers at such a late age. Just because Marshal did it, that does not mean they all can do it.

T.B.

Caroline - Point taken on wanting to remain anonymous, but no one who ever contacted me via phone/email/in-person has reported negative consequences of any sort.

I'll keep reading and weighing in on this and other threads because the discourse seems to have gotten more civil and thoughtful, and it looks like people appreciate my being able to get and relay factual information promptly. I just get tired of wading through all the name-calling and conspiracy theories that have cropped up in prior threads.

One other thing: Why does Napergate Man keep coming up again and again?? I too was around when he waged his campaign in the press about then-Mayor Sam Macrane's effort to close down his liquor operation. But I really don't view him as some sort of martyr, any more than some other community activists who've taken flack, just because he chose to communicate his views via full-page newspaper ads. There's even a group that calls themselves Napergatians!! Frankly, when I see the word "Napergate" I just move on to the next posting. And I'm probably the only Councilman who has the patience to read these blog postings in the first place!! Later, ~CB.

Councilman Bob,

I want to thank you for changing your stance and your willingness to communicate with us here anonymously instead of in person. I think that means a lot to most of us.

I would have to agree with many bloggers that TB, RJ and Ken have a high probability of being police officers. Let us face it...they are fighting for these pensions as if they were THEIR OWN pensions. It would be highly unusual for a civilian to be so obsessed with fighting for a police pension that increases his taxes substantially.

If we were not anonymous, when these 3 possible police officers blogggin here stopped us, they could use discretion against us in a negative way since they would have the advantage of knowing that we tried to decrease their pensions.

What police officer is going to give a break to a civilian for slightly speeding if that police officer knew that person had written several letters against his/her high pension to the Naperville Sun?

It does go back to the Napergate Man that fateful evening. Had he not criticized the police so much in his ads of course he would have been given discretion to turn himself in voluntarily. I just make this point to ask that Councilman Bob not to object to us remaining anonymous. And to thank the Naperville Sun Editors for allowing us to be anonymous while blogging.

Since every one seems to be a bit off topic, I just wanted to say I was reading my print edition of the Naperville Sun and found out that Sergeant Greg Bell was head of Internal Affairs. Greg Bell was the Sergeant who arrested the Napergate Man. Ironically, if the Napergate Man appealed to Internal Affairs, the officer hearing his case would have been the SAME arresting officer. This is another good reason Internal Affairs should be compromised of civilian residents and not police officers. Can anyone blame the Napergate Man for not appealing his case to the same officer who arrested him? I wonder if he knew that! What are the odds that Sergeant Greg Bell would have ruled against himself....not a chance! The Napergate Man had not a chance! Is that fair, Councilman Bob?

Continuing off subject, I would like to praise Editor/Publisher Jim Lynch for his editorial calling for the resignation of Principal Caudell. I thought it was a very well written editorial that articulated as well as possible. Since the reassignment took place after the editorial ran and not before, I feel Mr. Lynch was very instrumental in removing the Principal from a position he did not deserve.

It is nice to see that this bloggin can be translated into action by Mr. Lynch. I was very pleased with the Naperville Sun and would like to see it continue in this new path!

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Since it appears we have Councilman Bob's ears on this thread, I would like to ask him to consider changing the composition of Internal Affairs at the NPD from police to civilian. It is just a little too mind-boggling how out of all people in Naperville, it would be the Napergate Man who is arrested by the head of Internal Affairs and would have to appeal to his arresting officer for any remedies!

Since I am discussing this interesting topic on the wrong thread, I would like to propose a new thread asking the residents of Naperville if they would rather see Internal Affairs run by police panel or run by a civilian panel. Again, the Napergate Man's case bring out and highlights what a MAJOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST for one to appeal to the SAME officer who arrested him.

It really is amazing that the police officer who so many of us believe abused discretion turns our to be the JUDGE of these police abuse cases by his role as Head of Internal Affairs!!! Go figure!!!

After posting my last comment, I had one further thought: In the interest of open government, but also at the risk of opening a Pandora's Box of commentary and criticism, you should know that Naperville City Councilmen are, besides being elected officials, also city employees. We receive a pay-as-you-go amount ($10K/year), as well as benefits (health insurance if desired, life insurance, a $50/month cell phone allowance, a $50/month home internet service allowance, and a several hundred dollar (I forget the exact amount) yearly allowance for event fees (like Chamber of Commerce luncheons), newspaper and magazine subscriptions). Councilmen are also entitled to pension benefits from the Illinois Municipal Retirement Fund, which I understand become partially vested after 4 years (a Councilman's term) and fully vested after 8 years. I had no idea when I ran for office that I'd be entitled to receive state pension benefits and qualify for health insurance and other benefits!! I don't know anyone who would seek a Council position because of the compensation package, but who knows, maybe the lure of a pension and health insurance could entice someone to seek or continue in office. ~CB.

I'm going to ask our City finance people more about this, but here are some general thoughts on municipal pensions (as requested by Belinda and others):

I think that what the City is now contributing to police (and fire) pensions is no more than the amount our actuaries say is needed to meet our pre-existing obligations to current employees. Not once during the discussions leading up to the approval and adoption of our current fiscal year budget was the council given options as to how generously to contribute to pensions. It was just a number our actuaries gave to us and that amount in turn became a line item on our collective property tax bills.

Existing city employees were hired with a compensation arrangement that included a pay-as-you-go amount (salary), a deferred amount (pension), and non-monetary benefits (like health insurance). Any reduction in pension benefits is going to have to be done prospectively, in my view; that is, we can't just suddenly decide to cut pension benefits accrued for services already performed. That's because the agreed compensation for those services included the pension benefits that were offered when the employee agreed to perform those services.

There's nothing wrong with periodically re-assessing whether our municipal pensions are in line with our current economic climate. But we also have to accept that many current city employees might decide to work elsewhere if the pension component of their compensation were reduced. Some might say: "So what?? Let those city employees leave." But I can tell you that the quality of city services would suffer in the near-term, because the ones who would leave city employment first would be the high-performers who could readily find better-paying jobs elsewhere.

So before we make any abrupt changes in pension benefits, we need to carefully think through the natural consequences those changes will have on the quality of city services. I'll find out more about the extent to which the city's pension contributions are discretionary, and report back to you on this blog. I also look forward to hearing more thoughts on this topic. Peace, ~CB.

By T.B. on May 28, 2008 8:19 AM
Belinda-

Belinda, maybe if you took some time to meet some of them and speak with them instead of spewing the Napergatian hate for the NPD, you would think differently.

T.B.

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Host Ted and Moderator Jim,

I enjoyed reading this thread the last 2 evenings. I must admit it became much more exciting after Councilman Bob decided to participate and give Belinda a little ammunition to work with. Thank you Mr. Bob for being kind enough to take time out of your busy schedule to help us bloggers. It is very much appreciated.

What motivated me to write was "T.B.s offensive statement of Napergatian hate towards the NPD" that I posted above. I am a little surprised this libelous statement was published.

I have been a Napergatian for a long time. No leader or even individual in the Napergate Party has ever preached "hatred" for the Naperville Police.

The Napergatians simply want a more efficient and fair NPD...that does not amount to "hatred." I have read many posts by Napergatians in the last few weeks that praised the 3 police officers handling Chicago Ave. on weekends as of late. This is not an indication of "hatred." It is simply a belief that 3 police officers can do what 12 police officers use to do.

I have not seen any bike cops or an excessive amount of cops the last few weeks in the downtown area. Maybe this is a good sign that Chief David Dial has decided to reduce the number of police officers on Chicago Ave. Or maybe it is a sign that the school police have not let out yet as I believe the schools last day was today?!?!?! We will see! I am hoping we will see an end to school police bike patrols and motorcycle cops in the downtown this summer. I am hoping Chief Dial will use them to reduce the excessive POLICE OT that the City Council is courageously demanding be reduced.

I am very disappointed in you, TB. You have become a ruthless and mean person on this blog site. Belinda was doing her best to sell her position. You all ganged up on her just like you ganged up on Diana before her.

As others believe, I am beginning to believe you 3 are police officers trying to sell the public on excessive pensions for yourselves. Joe has been missing in action but I suspect he works for the Fraternal Order of Police. He spends his whole day listening to the police radio system. Civilians just don't do that type of thing day and night.

As others also said before me, it is odd for any human being to be fighting to put money from his pocket into another person's pocket. Many humans will accept this but rarely will a human fight to do take money from his pocket to put in another human's pocket. It is not normal or rational human behavior. Humans fight to keep money in their pockets. Animals fight to keep their own food from other predators. These are natural human and animal instincts!

The evidence is just becoming overwhelming that this group of five is benefiting from these excessive pensions. I think the bloggers can see through all their repetitive writings.

The bottom line when elections roll around you 5 guys will only have 5 votes. You will not stand a chance. Whining does not work in the polls. You vote and get out of your booth to make room for the next voter.

Apparently on this blog site, you guys linger on and on hogging it literally. I find it so very ironic that you guys accused the Napergatians of taking over threads. Napergatians have not even shown up on this thread until my arrival except for McFarland and possibly Walter who I am not sure of! Of course the person who posted as "Napergatian" is probably a Napergatian. That is all I detected the last 2 evenings while reading the entire thread. They made their points and left! Did not linger on to try to control and manipulate debate as the Group of Five. Quite obvious to anyone who reads this thread!

Belinda to the best of my knowledge is not a known Napergatian. You guys gave her that label just so you can try to plant a seed that the Napergatians are taking over again. Her motivation was obvious....her taxes went up from 10,300 to 12,000....how does that translate to police "hatred." NONSENSE!

Maybe she is a life long resident who wants to keep Naperville affordable so she can continue living her. You should be ashamed of yourself TB for translating this to police "hatred."

Host Ted was wrong in issuing Belinda a warning. You should have gotten a warning for your above statement inciting hatred where there is no hatred. I commend Moderator Jim for not taking the side of Host Ted after he issued the warning to Belinda. That showed me that Moderator Jim has gone overboard to be fair to all parties. His respect and legacy is growing in Naperville every day.

I would have to say the whole town is proud of his editorial calling for the plagiaizing principal to resign. That was a well written piece, Moderator Jim. This is what we have been looking for in this town. Someone like yourself who can keep an EYE OUT FOR US!

I hope Host Ted and Moderator Jim read this thread from beginning to end as I did the last 2 evenings. It simply shows that TB, RJ, and Ken have tried to dominate it and bully everyone around.

I am very proud of how Belinda stood up for herself. She was doing a very professional job and being extremely civil. Once again this group of 3 and their shadow characters such as "Tiredofbelinda" started egging her on to frustrate her into leaving. I am glad she stayed.

I am not surprised you guys got "Tired of Belinda." She let you have it with the facts provided by Council Member Bob and you had no response for her clever and detailed analysis.

Personally, I feel, the Moderator and Host, should issue you a warning to debate properly or get out of the ring. It is time to stop hitting beneath the belt. Even ultimate fighting does not allow that.

You guys need to learn how to fight fair and square and stay above the belt line. Grabbing hair is also not allowed in the ring.

If you guys are men, you should start acting like GENTLEMEN!
It is really about time!

I guess the group of five has been reduced to a group of 3.

I am amazed how you 3 men are underestimating the intelligence of the Naperville Taxpayer.

While most of us don't have time to write, we do have time to vote once every 2 years. We read these blogs carefully. We can tell who is telling us the truth and who has an ulterior motive of sorts.

It appears you 3 grown men have a hidden agenda. As anonymous stated many times, you seem to be part of the OVERTIME POLICE FAN CLUB. Now you have become the PENSION POLICE FAN CLUB!

Why don't you guys think of one way to make our police and fire departments more efficient! Let us have some constructive criticism to help our men in blue and yellow.

Taxes have become unbearable not just for Belinda, but for all of us. I am quite sure in the next election, the city council members who succeed will be the ones who showed the taxpayers how they helped reduce taxes by reducing city expenses.

If a council member ran on a platform that you 3 are proposing in these trying times, he would have no chance of making it.

The voters will be looking for council members that reduced excess fat in our city or have the potential to reduce excess fat.

If the city or firemen pension contracts come up soon for renewal as expected and our council members rubber stamp them, I expect them to be ousted at election time.

I sense Council Man Bob is very concerned and is going to do something about these crazy pensions. He needs our backing and support. He should not have to tackle it alone.

I urge other bloggers to write and support Councilman Bob for providing us this crucial data that our City Officials refuse to provide to the Naperville Sun without nonsensical FOIA after FOIA.

Keep up the good work Councilman Bob!

Great job, Belinda!

Councilman Bob,

I just wanted to come on here and thank you for providing some factual information.

It is amazing how one can debate skillfully and without speculation when one has some facts at his or her disposal.

Belinda took your facts and really made sense out of them.

Based on what you provided and what she analyzed, I feel that the pensions that we provide to both our police officers and firemen are out of line with other towns and the civilian and corporate worlds.

I hope you can lead our city council into taking some measures to remedy the situation.

Everyone in this town should be treated fairly. I do not feel the taxpayers are treated fairly when they have to subsidize these pensions to a rate in excess of 21% of an employees already high gross pay.

Let us please at least bring this issue before the City Council for debate.

Thanks for participating Councilman Bob and I hope you stay with us.

You are currently our only umbilical cord to City Hall. I am sure myself and most bloggers sincerely appreciate your presence on this Blog Site.

Moderator Jim,

This debate is interesting.

Belinda is being rational and logical and utilizing data Councilman Bob provided. She is presenting a very reasonable case.

RJ, TB and Ken are simply reaping and heaping praise on the police dept. and really not debating Brenda.

This thread is for the purpose of debating the merits of the pension of the Naperville Police Dept. Not reap and heap praise on the NPD endlessly! Reaping and heaping praise for the Napergate Man was considered correctly off topic. Reaping and heaping praise for the NPD endlessly should also be considered off topic.

We are debating pensions and not performance of the NPD on this thread!

Basically what RJ, TB and Ken are saying is if that if you go the Toyota Dealer and he tells you his cars are better than Hondas you are to believe him and pay $5000 over sticker price.

What Belinda is saying is that you are not to believe him and visit the Honda dealer. If the cars turn out about equal and the Honda dealer is willing to discount the price $5000, you should buy the Honda and leave the 10,000 difference between +5000 and -5000 for yourself and your family.

Belinda makes sense. RJ, TB. and Ken make absolutely no sense unless of course they are Naperville Police Officers watching for their own bank accounts. At that point they make a lot of sense. Just like the Toyota dealer who told you to pay 5000 over sticker price since his cars are so much better than the Honda cars that are selling for 5000 below sticker price.

This debate to me is pretty black and white.

I hope we see you take a stance on this issue at some point in the future!

I would like to end by commending you for your editorial stance on the Principal issue even though it is off topic. I just do not have time for a second letter today! Sorry to be off topic myself!

RJ,

A fool also gets what he pays for.

He goes to buy a new car and pays full sticker price.

A smart person goes to the dealer and bargains 5-10k off the sticker price of his/her new vehicle.

They both get the same exact car for different prices. The saying "you get what you pay for" was made for fools. I hope you are not one of those fools. I hope you did not learn that proverb from a used car dealer who pulled one on you or over you!

I doubt any Naperville Police Officer is going to Cicero, Melrose Park, Maywood or Stone Park if we reduce matching funds from 21.16% to 9.91%. I also doubt they would be interested in working on the South Side of Chicago even for more pay. Naperville Policemen are smart and value their lives and limb. That is why they turned their applications into the Naperville Police Dept. instead of Chicago or Aurora! They wanted to come home safe to their families and I don't blame them one bit. But let us not compensate them as if they are in a daily WAR ZONE!

My feeling is we will not lose one single Naperville Police Officer if we reduce pension funding to levels that are more reasonable and in line with similar towns with similar risk levels to police officers.

Other towns pay much less and the risk to life and limb in those cities are great. Recently, a police officer in Maywood got shot by a gangbanger while sitting in his police car. I knew him very well. He was young, handsome, married, had children and an outstanding citizen and cop! He was truly risking his life everyday for about half what a Naperville Police Officer makes.

So let us not be putting fear in the public that there will be a mass exodus of our Naperville police officers just because we reduce their inflated pay, benefits and pension...they may whine a little bit but they are going nowhere!

There will still be no better place for them to work than NAPERVILLE!

Thank you Ken and RJ for clairifying my post. I'm sure Belinda has heard the phrase before but has chosen to twist it to help her agenda.

Belinda, You are under a large misconception that City Of Naperville employees do not contribute to social security. They do. Also,employees by state law contribute to IMRF, an Illinois pension fund. The only exception to this would be the police and fire departments.

I will say it again but in a way that shouldn't offend you. I can safely assume that you have ZERO experiance in any type of law enforcement so BEFORE you make a statement as you did above you should spend some time in their shoes doing their job and if you choose not to..then don't expect us to listen to your nonsence.

Who were the people on 9/11 that were running toward the Twin Towers instead of away? Who were the people who had the horrible task of cleaning up that mess? Who are the people that will be saving your ass if something terrible happens in this town?
Just a thought.

Why would they want to opt out ? All that would accomplish would be a mass exodus of the fine police an fire personnel we have now, only to be replaced by every other towns rejects that can't get hired on anywhere else that has a competitive pay and benefit package. Sorry, I have no problem paying for the quality people we have working on the force now, as the saying goes, you get what you pay for.

T.B.,

You need to go back and read Councilman Bob's post very carefully.

Here is what it said about what the state legislature controls.

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" Participant contribution is set by the state legislature;"

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What this means "likely" Mr. Police Officer posing as an MBA on this blog site, is that the state controls what police officers pay into the pension. It happens to be 9.91% of their gross pay.

The City of Naperville controls how much they chose to add to this pension. They determine if they want their pensions to be 85k when they retire or 36k. Many police officers from other towns who reached the rank of Captain Bob Marshall received a pension much less than his. They contributed 9.91% but their respective cities contributed much less.

Do you think poor towns like Cicero, Melrose Park, and Maywood can afford to contribute 21.16% to their police and fire pensions? Do you think their retirees are walking around at age 51 with 85k pensions? I assure you they are not. I had a distant cousin who worked for Melrose Park for 30 years and received less than half of what Mr. Marshall receives. I know a fireman who retired recently from Lisle with the rank of Captain after 30 years and he receives 61k in pension.

As anonymous stated Naperville can pull out of this pension if they wanted to. They could contribute half of the 9.91%, equal or match it, or double or triple it. They can do what they want. They can tell the union to take a hike or can give the union whatever it wants.

While pension and Social Security are not the exact same plan, they were developed for identical purposes. To help the retiree supplement his life style upon retirement. No where is it written in national, state or city law that a police officer needs to get a pension that is so high that he needs not to work another day in his life. Police officers are allowed to go to the nearest bank and open IRA accounts or Roth accounts to supplement their pensions just like civilians. They should be putting a 100 dollars in the bank every week just as RJ or Ken stated and we would not have to give them so much of our civilian tax money. That 100 dollars a week will grow and do wonders for them in retirement....just like it does wonders for CIVILIANS!!!

You seem to feel, TB, that if you keep repeating yourself that bloggers will believe you. You are repeating your misinformation on this blog site so the naive and gullible will believe you. Obviously, the police have chosen to receive pension instead of social security. They are not allowed to have both. One is in lieu of the other. They are for the same exact purpose....RETIREMENT MONEY!!!

The police and firemen were smart to choose pensions because they suckered our former city officials for up to 21.16% matching funds. Our former city officials and some current ones were obviously weak and could not stand up to the unions. The police chose the pension route because they could sucker City Officials. No one can sucker the Federal Government when it comes to Social Security. It is 7.65% in matching funds by the employer. It does not change no matter how much lobbying or pressure you put on the Feds by unions or non-unions. They treat everyone equally. No one gets preferential treatment such as our fine Naperville Police!

Mr. Bob Marshall is living proof that a police officer is not washed out at 51 due to stress of his police position. At 54 he is running 26 mile marathons. He is capable of working construction if he wanted to. So let us not make excuses that police can not work beyond 51 like private citizens. That the job is so stressful and risky...etc. Better than 90% of a police officer's day is stress free...except if you feel writing a speeding ticket is stressful! If a police officer feels stressed out when he writes a simple parking ticket maybe he should have chosen another career!

Many private citizens work factory jobs till 65. Ford and GM do not retire their employees at 51. They work them till 65. How many stories have you seen about GM or Ford factory workers finally getting their golden watches after 40 or 45 years of service to their companies. I can assure their jobs are much more stressful and boring than police officer jobs. If they have a moment of lapse, they can lose a limb...that is what I call STRESS!

No one has shot and killed a Naperville Police Officer in 178 year history of the town. I hope we have a repeat on another 178 years of no one shooting and killing an NPD officer. Where is the stress?
Maybe it is imaginary!

The only serious danger that the NPD is facing is those 2 new motorcycles bought last year. Police do not belong on motorcycles as Councilman Bob's post proves. Who ever bought and approved those 2 new motorcycles for the NPD should have his head examined! Our only fatality in NPD history was a result of a motorcycle accident that killed a former Police Chief pursuing a suspect. How come we did not learn from this incident and ban police motorcycles? We should never endanger our police by asking them to pursue suspects on motorcycles...I hope Councilman Bob introduces a resolution banning motorcycle use by the NPD! Just a suggestion to a concerned Councilman! Let us try to protect our police from harm whenever possible and minimize any risk to their lives!

Are you telling me, TB, Bob Marshall who can run a marathon can't catch up to a criminal running away from him? Do you think the bloggers on this site are stupid? Most 50 year old men are in excellent physical health. My husband loves to sprint 200 meters a day at very high speeds. He is over 55!

For you to be fighting for the police union, for police OT, for police pension, is a strong indication you may be a police officer. You have a lot to lose here, so you are fighting hard. No one fights this hard to give his money to others. I am fighting hard because my taxes increased 1700 dollars this year and I blame the City of Naperville for a large part of this increase.

I find it odd that despite your taxes increasing like mine you are on the side of those who caused your taxes to increase. You don't care if their pensions double and your taxes increase 3400 dollars. The only rational that can explain your highly unusual stance is that you are a POLICE OFFICER. A police officer would be the only one who does not mind a 1700 dollar increase on his real estate tax bill if it increases his pension to 100,000 dollars when he retires. It makes economic sense for him. For non-police and non-firemen, it does not make any economic sense.

Normal citizens are willing to pay police and fireman fairly for their services. Not whatever they or their union want with no limits.

The pensions for the police and firemen are becoming very PIGGISH!We all know pigs get fat while hogs get slaughtered.

Those pensions are reaching the point of SLAUGHTER!

T.B.

"There's very little, if anything, the city council can do to change the system."

WRONG. The city council can opt out of the state program. It is as simple as that. The same is true for school districts.

Belinda –

You continue to ignore the fact (also stated by RJ) that Social Security and pensions are not the same and any comparison between the two plans is erroneous.

You also continue to ignore the fact that police and fire personnel retire earlier than most people because they have to. Though some are in a position to retire as early as 50, they’re literally forced out the door short of their 60’s. This type of employment is not something comparable to the private sector and can’t be treated as such.

You want the city council to do something about this situation, yet Councilman Bob has already explained to you that this structure was put in place by State law (see his post from May 27th at 11:21 AM). There’s very little, if anything, the city council can do to change the system. Complain to Gov. Rod and see if it gets you anywhere.

Lastly, your new rant about Host Ted’s alleged bias appears to be nothing more than an attempt to justify your previous rant and insults. Is it so hard to admit that you screwed up and just apologize? Take responsibility for your own actions instead of blaming others or attempting to justify your mistakes.

T.B.

Ken and RU,

The 9.91% they participate in from their gross pay is legal and earned. The up to 21.16% from the taxpayers is not earned....it is a gift from taxpayers to their retirement that is being justifiably questioned.

A simple vote from the City Council could reduce it to something more reasonable. Time will tell if taxpayers will approve something so horrendous to continue in the future. Time will tell if our City Council decides enough is enough!

No one threatened bodily harm to Host Ted. The Europenan Soccer fans boo very loudly those referees that are impartial. I have never seen a European referee hurt by a fan. In South America they have punched a few of them...but not in recent Europe to the best of my knowledge!

Host Ted was being unfair! I booed him as loud as I could!

Someone told me to shut up before I told him to shut up!

I was reprimandly wrongfully for having been civil from the moment I came on these blogs!

Sorry, but it is all there for you to see in black and white.

If I was not right, Moderator Jim would have stepped in and taken Host Ted's side.

He chose not to step in and take Host Ted's side...that may be a sign he told his referee to be a little sharper in how he blows the whistle.

End of debate...I am happy that my letters were posted and I was allowed to voice my opinion.

I am sure Host Ted will be a little more careful before he blows his whistle wrongfully! I was not threatening to attack him...and I will not!

He is probably much stronger than I am...lol..!

If one feels he is treatly unfairly by the Host he has a right to appeal to the Moderator. That is a civil rememdy available. I exercised it. It may have worked! I am not sure! Again time will tell!

Why don't you guys ask Councilman Bob some questions instead of getting engaged in these silly disccusions and help improve our City.

Try to be productive members of soceity and look for some excess fat in City Hall. They can not be perfect...or do you believe they are, Ken and RJ?

Are you done throwing your tantrum yet, Belinda? The most telling sign of your ignorance, other than your posts, is the fact that you do not seem to be familiar with the age old saying "Put up or shut up". You have constantly derided the NPD as useless, so a poster suggested a ride along so you could see what they do first hand. Then he used an age old saying indicating if you were not willing to do so, you should quit your whining. Instead, you threw the mother of all tantrums and issued many meaningless threats, and one veiled one threatening bodily harm to Ted just like a soccer ref in Europe. What does all that have to do with pensions that are legal and earned?

By Belinda on May 28, 2008 4:59 PM

I think it is fascinating that an average person with Social Security is lucky to make a 2k a month in benefits upon retirement at age 70. Yet police officers like Drew Peterson and Bob Marshall are taking in 6-8k per month in benefits in their early 50s with the right to take second jobs even with the same employer with no reduction in their RETIREMENT BENEFITS!
Could you explain this?

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It is really quite simple Belinda, Social Security is and never was intended to be a pension to retire on. It is to supplement actual retirement plans. If you are counting on Social security as your retirement plan, you are in for a rude awakening. Put $100 per week in an account and watch it grow and keep investing it, you'll be amazed how much you have by the time retirement comes around.

Life is about choices, those that whine incessantly about people who do have pensions obviously chose unwisely.

I think it is fascinating that an average person with Social Security is lucky to make a 2k a month in benefits upon retirement at age 70. Yet police officers like Drew Peterson and Bob Marshall are taking in 6-8k per month in benefits in their early 50s with the right to take second jobs even with the same employer with no reduction in their RETIREMENT BENEFITS!

Could you explain this?

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Councilman Bob,

Thanks for answering my first question that dealt with facts.

You ignored my second questions that dealt with your feelings about the issue. I think your feelings are very important since you control one of the 9 votes in town that dictate policy.

If residents knew how you felt on an issue they may try to contact you and sway you either way before you voted.

Many time council members vote without getting a pulse or feel from their constituents. True, we elected them, but I think we appreciate being consulted once in a while on important issues like pensions.

My feelings about the pension plans are they unfair. Pension plans for City Employees are suppose to be the equivalent of Social Security...they are in lieu of Social Security. T.B may not be aware that city employees pay into pensions instead of Social Security. They do not get Social Security since they have their own retirement plan.

I think it is very unfair to pay 21.16% towards an employees pension with taxpayer money. This is a huge amount especially since police officers are starting out of college at about 20,000 dollars more than civilian employees. The data is on the net for anyone to review. Civilian employees for the most part are now buying their own health insurance through deductions from their paychecks. Private employers contribute only 7.65% towards the retirement of their employees through FICA which finances and administers Social Security!

So my question to you Councilman Bob, is do you think it is fair that the City of Naperville contributes nearly 3 times what corporate america contributes to the retirment of an employee?

I have no problem with others prospering and being successful. But it is unfair for my husband and I both to work more than one job only to have our hard earned earnings end up in someone elses pension to such a humongous amount. My overall real estate tax bill rose from 10,300 to 12,000 this year. We have to come up with 6k in a few days. Most of the rise can be attributed to the City of Naperville taxes rising nearly 20%. Pension for City Employees is also no laughing matter.

I hope you can persuade your fellow council men to vote to bring city employees retirement benefits in tune with the private sector.

City employees work hard and have stressful jobs. The private sector employees also work hard and have even more stressful jobs. The reason I say more stressful is because they are constantly subjected to lay-offs when the budget can not be met or earnings are not there. There are checks and balances in the corporate world to keep things reasonable and manageable.

It seems like in the governmnet world....it is just too easy. All they ever do is increase taxes to make budgets meet. Where are the efficiency studies? Where are the lay-offs resulting from excess fat?

Common Councilman Bob, you certainly do not believe in a City as large as Naperville that NOT ONE SINGLE JOB could be excess fat!

As I mentioned before CEO Pamela Davis looked for excess fat in efficient and reputable Edward's Hosptal and she found 136 people she saw no use for and laid them off. Has anyone complained of bad service from Edward's Hospital since the lay-offs? Has an emergency not been dealt with? Has any patient died because of lack of staffing?

How come she can do it and 9 council members can not do what she did?

Let us put our city under a microscope and sniff out the excess fat!
Let us bring these outrageous pensions back to where they match corporate america! Let us make city employees pay for part of their health benefits just like in corporate america! Let us decrease the starting pay for city employees so they can be in tune with coroporate america!

There is so much to do to fix our town. I hope you can be a leader on our council and get them moving.

I am impressed that you are monitoring these blogs. It shows that you care about your constituents and what they have to say.

I salute you and commend you for your concern and willingness to listen. I hope other council members follow your example and stay in tune with their constituents!

No one has attacked you and I do not believe anyone will attack a gentleman like you. Those who are attacked usually deserve to be attacked and ask for it! They are low esteem people who get their rises from being attacked after attacking first to instigate the attack!

A council member position is very highly respected in our society. Most council members have very high self esteem and are not looking for personal recognition. They are looking to serve thier constituents in the best way they know how! I personally don't think you have anything to worry about! Again thanks for that valuable information you provided and I hope the entire council does something with it instead of just looking atg it!

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There was a time when our council members and newspapers were rubber stamping the establishment. That created the need for the Napergate Man who filled a vacuum. I see a big change now from then.

What Councilman Bob is doing here and what Mr. Jim Lynch did in his editorial calling for the Principal of NCHS to resign are small steps in the right direction. Yes, the Napergate Man was famous for uncovering cover-ups and asking people to resign. I don't believe anyone resigned due to his calls. Let us see if Mr. Jim Lynch can accomplish something the Napergate Man never succeeded at...pressuring someone who should resign to RESIGN! We will soon learn the POWER OF INK!

Just to set the record straight: A Naperville policeman did lose his life in service to our community. On September 24, 1927, Police Chief Robert Worthel was killed in a motorcycle accident while responding to the scene of an armed robbery. He struck a motorist who turned in front of him at Washington and School Streets. His family still lives in the Naperville area. I attended a Peace Officers' Memorial Service held on May 15, 2007, at the Naperville Police Department to honor the law enforcement officers in DuPage County, including Robert Worthel, who lost their lives in the line of duty.

By T.B. on May 28, 2008 2:27 PM
Anon –

Based on Belinda’s use of the words “put up” and “shut up”, I think it is disingenuous at best for you to say her rant was directed at nobody in particular. Clearly she was referring to the May 27 6:26 PM post by “tiredofbelinda”.

__________________________________________________________________

Yes, my attack was directed at "tiredofbelinda" who told me to SHUT UP!

Why are you applauding Host Ted for keeping things civil when he allows a Blogger to tell me to SHUT UP for posting information I learned from Councilman Bob and interpreting it the best way I know how.

I think you are showing bias T.B. as Host Ted has shown by not going after the instigator and inciter....I was the victim who was attacked! I have a right to defend myself and will!

What is so hard to understand about wanting to defend yourself when talked to inappropriately?

Host Ted did not defend me by not posting that worthless comment!
Host Ted did not give that blogger a warning! How did that worthless post contribute to the debate!

He simply attacked me for stating the risks that Naperville Police Officers live by are much less than those undertaken by our Armed Forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. If anything that was an understatement! Does anyone on this blog site disagree with that factual statement?

Host Ted,

Once again you showed your bias for City Officials. Mr. Jim Lynch goes overboard to be neutral. You go overboard to be biased! Many times you are known not to publish letters that are anti-City. The Napergate Network is loaded with letters you have not published with no comment. No wonder you lost the Napergatian Bloggers. By not publishing so many of their letters, you successfully frustrated them. You accomplished your goal of making this Blog Site city friendly...which has always been your intent!

I believe people have written Mr. Lynch directly. I will too if my letters are not published. Your bias needs to stop if you are going to be respected on this blog site like Mr. Lynch. Mr. Lynch has low tolerance for employees who do not do their job in a fair, equitable and balanced manner.

Rahter than issue me a WARNING issue it to the City Supporter who instigated it.

"By tiredofbelinda on May 27, 2008 6:26 PM
Belinda, why don't you step up to the plate and sign up for a citizens academy program with the police department and do some ride alongs and see first hand what the "tiny risks" are. Put up or Shut up."

I told no one to shut up and all my comments were respectful and civil. Why did you not issue to the warning to "Tiredofbelinda?"

I was trying very hard to communicate with Councilman Bob and obtain some facts. I was the first blogger a city official or city counci member ever responded to on this Blog Site! I must have been polite or courteous or he would have never responded to me.

I think you should apologize to me for warning me instead of warning the blogger who told me to SHUT UP! I was responding to him or her! Do you not respond to people who tell you to SHUT UP! I bet you do, Host Ted! I did and I have a right to! I am no wimp who is going to be told to SHUT-UP!

I hope we can remedy this situation without having to contact Mr. Jim Lynch directly who I truly respect.

It is about time you take this Blog Site much more seriously, Host Ted. Stop playing games! If you are not playing games, then please make sure you read the responses in full to see who is instigating and inciting!

Furthermore, my comments were obviously sarcastic. I inserted the words "lol" in order for those who do not understand sarcasm to understand I was being sarcastic. I did not want my comments to go over anybody's head! Apparently, they still did!

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Be assured if any of my non-libelous and non-profane laden letters are not published they will be e-mailed directly to Mr. Lynch for addtional review. At least he will know that you are not publishing them.

At least Mr. Lynch knows to build a blog site you have to allow opposing views to flourish from both sides. Apparently, you don't understand this basic concept and single handed chased away 500 Napergatian Bloggers with your CENSORSHIP or DELETING of so many of their letters. Personally, I don't think Mr. Lynch tolerates such behavior. Unlike you, Mr. Lynch explains why a letter is not being published and encourages the letter to be rewritten. In your case you hit the DELETE button thinking you will get away with it. Be careful, Host Ted! Play by the Sun Rules. You are not above the Rules of your Employer. You saw what happened to the principal of NCHS! Need I say more!

I hope Mr. Lynch comes on this site and assures Napergatians and others from this day on their non-libelous and non-profane letters will always be published. And so many of these letters that were not published were written on Napergate or Napergate approved threads. Yes, as Anonymous said "take it easy" on that delete button, Host Ted!

If you want us to all be civil, you need to be a neutral referee! Just watch a European Soccer game and see what happens to referees who have a hard time being neutral!

Anon –

Based on Belinda’s use of the words “put up” and “shut up”, I think it is disingenuous at best for you to say her rant was directed at nobody in particular. Clearly she was referring to the May 27 6:26 PM post by “tiredofbelinda”.

While it is true that you can't see facial expressions and may misinterpret something someone says, it’s hard to misinterpret Belinda when she say things like “Stop being stupid, silly and ignorant”. That’s not debating. That’s not exchanging ideas. That’s just a hateful attack.

Personal attacks such as this have no place on this forum and are counterproductive to a free exchange of ideas. This is exactly why Councilman Bob said he stopped posting in the past and I'm sure it has chased others away, also.

I applaud the Sun for trying to keep things on a civil level because there’s no need to attack anyone to get your point across. If more people learned this lesson, there wouldn’t be a need for the Sun to issue any warnings.

T.B.

Naperville Sun Editors,

My interpretation was that Belinda was being more sarcastic than making light of terrorist attacks; though she can certainly clarify for herself her true intent. Let's all not forget that tone and inflection, facial expression, and body language do not show through with what we read on a forum. The reader has to guess on these and sometimes we do guess wrong.

We might disagree with what Belinda says, why she says it, how she says it, or the fact that she even says it. First case in point, Belinda made general comments and did not specifically address those comments to anyone. Second case in point, if the Naperville Sun feels compelled to issue warnings, why wasn't a warning issued to "tiredofbelinda" at 6:26PM?

Provided posters are not slanderous, libelous, or profane the Naperville Sun would be well advised to exercise a lot of restraint while tolerating free speech. Inappropriate? Maybe to some, but how can anyone ever know with 100 percent on something as subjective as appropriate? Does the Naperville Sun really want to take on the role of being everyones mother and tell us what is and what is not appropriate?

Yes, we all know the Sun editors have their right hand perched above the "delete" button. Please use it cautiously. Please use it sparingly if you really want this to be a forum of free expression.

To Councilman Bob regarding Belinda's ( May 27, 2008 8:18 PM) comments below,

I am sure anti-tank missles and rocket propelled grenades will be fired at Naperville police cars during a ride along. Hamas and Hezballah have ambushes set up for the NPD in downtown Naperville by Jimmy's balcony and Starbucks...lol...

The risk is being taken by our UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES. No police officer has ever died in 178 years in the line of duty in Naperville...that is truly a "tiny risk."

Let us keep things in perspective here and admit that the risk to a Naperville Police Officer is tinier than even tiny!!!

________________________________________________________

I'll bet you are glad you jumped into this fray? It appears that your next act of legislation (If Belinda follows track) would be to slice the NPD in half, cut pay and pensions, and see to it that earned pensions are never duplicated. Maybe you could put this on the next council agenda? Don't forget to start the meeting with a joke, how about picking up where Belinda makes light of Hamas and Hezbollah ambushes? She certainly thinks this is something to Laugh Out Loud about.

I will speculate that the information you provided about the pension percentages could easily be obtained by stopping into city hall or simply calling? Belinda seems to think she has just uncovered a deep dark secret.

Belinda: You claim to be a Napergatian? Is this the type of humor and direction that your group finds helpful and supports the Napergate cause?

Belinda-

Just because there has thankfully not been a death in the line of duty and the NPD does not have weekly shootouts with gangbangers like Chicago PD does, that does not mean they have stress-free jobs. Police work is further described on the web site for the US Dept of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics at http://stats.bls.gov/oco/ocos160.htm. There are many things that contribute to a stressful work environment such as frequent calls, constantly having to be aware of your situation, and witnessing tragedy and death.

Nobody is comparing the job of an NPD officer to those serving in the armed forces except you. You like to compare apples and oranges, don’t you? Kind of like your comparison of Social Security to pensions. Your continued comparison between the two is erroneous. Pensions and Social Security are NOT the same and do not perform the same function. Social Security is meant to be a safety net for seniors, not someone’s sole means of support in their retirement such as a pension plan.

Police and fire personnel cannot continue to perform at the level required by their jobs into their 60’s and 70’s. I don’t know about you, but I have a hard time picturing a 65 year old cop chasing down and tackling a high school-age thief as just happened at Naperville Central HS this week. And I have a hard time imagining a 65 year old fire fighter carrying me down a ladder during a fire.

“If other police officers chose to gain weight on the job and not take care of their health, that is their fault….” You’re kidding, right? What’s next, should we then ban overweight seniors from Medicare because their situation is “their own fault”? How about smokers or drinkers? That would save tax money, wouldn’t it?

Marshal has done a good job of finding another career, but most of the NPD and NFD force will be pushed out of a job based solely on their age. How many people in their 50’s are successful at changing careers when they’re laid off? Your “arguments” (mostly insults) are ridiculous.

Lastly, you wrote that “I salute the Army, Marines, Navy, Air Force and National Guard for doing a great job in protecting the United States of America of which Naperville is a part. Thank you for truly risking your lives for us!” This appears to be a purposeful slight to our fine men and women serving us in the NPD and NFD. Do you really believe that they don’t “truly” risk their lives serving us? What a shame.

Belinda, maybe if you took some time to meet some of them and speak with them instead of spewing the Napergatian hate for the NPD, you would think differently.

T.B.

I am sure anti-tank missles and rocket propelled grenades will be fired at Naperville police cars during a ride along. Hamas and Hezballah have ambushes set up for the NPD in downtown Naperville by Jimmy's balcony and Starbucks...lol...

The risk is being taken by our UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES. No police officer has ever died in 178 years in the line of duty in Naperville...that is truly a "tiny risk."

Let us keep things in perspective here and admit that the risk to a Naperville Police Officer is tinier than even tiny!!!

If anyone should be getting these humongous pensions it is the US Armed Forces who are truly taking risks to protect our freedom and ensure our safety. That is why our NPD officers have cushy jobs. Because our armed forces went there to battle them overseas so they could not come here! That is why we have been safe and secure since 911.

I salute the Army, Marines, Navy, Air Force and National Guard for doing a great job in protecting the United States of America of which Naperville is a part. Thank you for truly risking your lives for us!

Enough said!

I have PUT UP...now you SHUT UP! And stay on SUBJECT! Learn how to DEBATE! Learn how to THINK! Stop being stupid, silly and ignorant on this important Blog Site!

Response from Naperville Sun editors:

Belinda, your comment is really inappropriate. Making light of terrorist attacks? Honestly, police officers respond to domestic disturbances every day, and any one of those can place an officer's life at risk. Then you resort to name-calling and a personal attack. Please be more civil, or future comments will not be published.

"Could pension issue affect Marshall for manager?"

That was the question we all started with.

At this point in the conversation I think the question of could has been more than answered by posters on both sides of the issue. The pension issue has definitely affected Marshall, no doubt about it.

Thank goodness the Naperville Sun exposed all of this and if enough people get mad about it maybe something will finally be done about these pension plans.

I don't like the idea of big brother and I don't like the idea of living in a police state. With a retired cop currently serving as Mayor and another retired cop wanting to be City Manager, both of which used to work for the current Police Chief is far too scary for me.

Way too many conflicts of interest. Not in the best interest of the taxpayer.

I might be willing to reconsider if Pradel were to resign. Until that happens though, in my opinion, the police department is over represented and that is something that should concern each and every one of us.

Belinda, why don't you step up to the plate and sign up for a citizens academy program with the police department and do some ride alongs and see first hand what the "tiny risks" are. Put up or Shut up.

Councilman Bob,

I appreciate the quick answer to my question. I had always suspected that the City of Naperville was contributing the lion's share to these pensions.

I have no problem with the 9.91% and 9.46% participant contributions by police and fire men and women. It is their money and any money resulting from these contributions to their pensions is fair and square.

However the up to 21.46% contribution being paid by the taxpayers that is not even enough is very disturbing. To put things in perspective, this contribution by the employer meaning the City of Naperville, is roughly 3 times what private employers contribute to the Social Security Funds of their employees. Private employers contribute only 7.65% matching their employees 7.65%.

Police do not pay into or receive Social Security. In essence their pension is for the same purpose our Social Security. Both were meant to be for retirement money so one can survive in the golden years in a decent, comfortable and dignified fashion.

While State Law mandates that police pay those 9.91% participant amounts, State Law to the best of my knowledge does not mandate what the City of Naperville must contribute. If the City of Naperville was paying police upon retirement only 3500 per month instead of 7000 per month, the City of Naperville contribution may only be a matching 9.91%....not nearly 20%.

I had always suspected since Mr. Bob Marshall's and Mr. Drew Peterson's pensions were revealed publicly, that the taxpayers were subsidizing them very heavily and inappropriately. It is madness to the nth degree.

Almost all pensions in the corporate and private sector were completely eliminated because of affordability. Most people in the private sector pay for their health insurance through their own contributions. In the case of the City of Naperville we are not only giving pensions worthy of Kings and Princes, but paying health insurance that private employers rarely pay but contribute to partially.

In the case of private citizens, our Social Security is scheduled for bankruptcy in 2030 despite that it only pays fully at age 70 and amounts to a fraction of what police and fire pensions pay. Is anyone surprised that police and fire pension are not making ends meet despite 20% contributions by residents?

The solution seems ever to easy when trouble is looming at the police or fire departments. Just get the difference from the taxpayers and tell them we work hard and risk our lives every day for them. Yeah sure...how many Naperville police officers or fire men died in the line of duty the last 25 years. I believe the answer is 0! None! Zilch!

I believe 24 students from NCHS and NNHS enlisted for the armed forces this year according to the announcements at the graduation ceremonies. They will most probably be going to Iraq and Afghanistan. Those are the heroes that are TRULY RISKING their lives. They are the ones who are underpaid...they are the ones who deserve the high pensions if anyone deserves them.

Not police and fire men who do an adequate daily job with almost no risk to life in the City of Naperville but earn pensions at age 51 in their prime to the tune of 85k. As we can see Mr. Bob Marshall is extremely fit and can run marathons. He is capable of being employed in many different places and capacities. He should not be milking us for an 85k pension while employed by the taxpayers who got him that massive pension.

As in Social Security, if a police officer or firemen is capable of working upon retirement, his pension should be delayed until he is no longer capable of working. If a police officer or fireman has job related injuries and can no longer work at age 51, I have no problem of paying them early pension. If they are capable of working and healthy, full pension should be delayed to age 70 just like Social Security is for the private sector. Partial S.S. can be obtained at age 62 for a lesser monthly stipend. I have no problem with Mr. Marsahll receiving half or his pension at age 62 if he choses to retire young...but at age 51 obtaining a pension when you can run a MARATHON is UTTER NONSENSE! This man is 51 going on 31. He is a very productive member of society who does not need to be SUBSIDIZED.

Looking at Mr. Bob Marshall, it does not seem being a police man ruined his body or burned him out. He looks great and is in excellent shape. This is proof that police work is not extremely stressful on the body and mind if you handle it properly. Mr. Marshall is a living example. If other police officers chose to gain weight on the job and not take care of their health, that is their fault...not the taxpayers fault they chose not to take care of their bodies and minds.

I would like to ask Councilman Bob and all council members to limit the city contribution to where it equals the participant contribution. Just like in Social Security. That would give the police a combined 19.82%. That would give the firemen a combined 18.92%. That would be a little more in line with the combined 15.3% given in a combined manner by private citizens and their corporations. It is a little more than we get, but let them have a little more since there is a TINY risk in their jobs. Truthfully, it is much more likely an unarmed citizen in Naperville will be shot by a thug or gang banger than a police officer armed with a gun and a vest who is usually accompanied by a partner. Let us be realistic and not pretend our fine Naperville police officers are in Iraq losing limb and life. To say that is insulting the brave men and women who are in the armed forces who are truly losing limb and life for us and are doing it for the love of the country for almost NO PAY!

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Again many thanks to Councilman Bob. As one can see, if one has facts, one can debate much better with much less speculation. While the the Naperville Sun appears to need FOIAs to obtain such readily available information, a Council Members can slice through red tape rather easily and apparently avoid FOIAs. More citizens should approach Council Members. Many of you have always been impressed with the works of the Napergate Man. Yes, his works were impressive...very impressive! He had a very close relationship with Council Men Doug Krause and Jack Tenison. That was one of the reasons he was able to implement change and obtain astonishing results. Councilman Bob proved to us the importance of contacting our elected council members. Let us contact him and the others. He got us answers in 24 hours! Thanks again Councilman Bob. I hope the bloggers stop dreaming about the Napergate Man and get off their butts and do something to bring change. IT CAN BE DONE!

Anon –

At least some government pensions are changing as you suggested/asked in your most recent post. I don’t know if there has or will be a change at the city or state level, but there has been at the federal level.

My father retired on a federal pension and was covered by the “old” system called CSRS. Federal employees covered under this plan (which I believe was offered up until about the early ‘90s) did not pay into Social Security, do not collect Social Security, and did not have a 401k-type savings component. The pension was all they had unless they invested in IRAs on their own. I believe the “new” federal plan has a dramatically smaller pension, but includes Social Security payments (and benefits) and also a 401k-type savings plan.

Your desire to see government workers continue working until they are 65 or 70 isn’t feasible for the positions of fire fighter or police officer. Unless they’re in senior management (and those positions are few and far between), they aren’t capable of performing up to the standards necessary for their positions and our safety.

I think the most troubling thing I’ve read on this thread was the last line of Councilman Bob’s last post: “City contributions are up recently due to the underfunded status of the plans.” This is a state problem and we can all thank the wonderful people we sent to Springfield for much of this mess. I think it’s about time the state take the legislature back from the corrupt Chicago political hacks and enacted some real reform and leadership.

T.B.

Here are the answers to Belinda's questions in her 5/26 4:55am post about police and fire pensions:

QUESTIONS: How much does a police officer pay towards his pension per paycheck as a percent of his gross income? What do the taxpayers directly and indirectly pay towards his pension? Do policemen and firemen have equal pensions?

ANSWERS FROM CITY FINANCE DIRECTOR:

Most recent data is for fiscal year 2007 (May 1, 2006 - April 30, 2007).

For FY 07, Police contributed 9.91% of their pay to their pension. Fire contributed 9.46%. City contributions are limited to the property tax line item and contributed an additional 18.7% for police and 21.16% for fire. The two groups do not have equal pensions. Each pension has its own set of rules under the state legislation. Participant contribution is set by the state legislature; city contribution is actuarially determined and is based on investment return, mortality, marital status, salary, funding level, all of the same factors as for any defined benefit plan. City contributions are up recently due to the underfunded status of the plans.

"Poor planning on your part does not constitute a reason for taking away a pension from someone who earned it by taking a job you probably looked down upon until you found out the retirement benefits."

This is not so much poor planning as it is poor negotiations on the part of officials who were elected to represent the taxpayers. They were not elected to represent the police union or give the farm away to the police union.

All across America the status quo of pensions has changed dramatically in the last 20 years. Companies have gone out of business, merged, been taken over. Even businesses that have survived cutthroat competition have been forced to change their retirement plans.

Yet government workers want to stick their head in the sand and pretend they are immune to all of this.

We have tremendous waste in government, especially government in Illinois. We have the distinction of being the state with the highest number of local units of government. Maybe it is high time the government when through the corporate equivalent of mergers, acquisitions, even hostile takeovers. Maybe it is time to reduce and eliminate many of these local units of government.

We could start by eliminating townships, merging neighboring school districts, etc. How about doing away with park police, city police, county sheriff, and state police? They all have state-wide police powers anyway. How about one police department for the entire state? Same for the fire department. Does every city really need their own fire department? Orange County California has no local city fire departments. All fire emergencies are handled by the county. If we can't merge all fire departments into a state-wide agency then we should at least be able to model it on a county-wide basis after what Orange County has done. Imagine the tax savings if every town, village, and city was able to outsource just their police and fire departments to a statewide or countywide agency? The limits and benefits of outsourcing from the local level to the county level are enormous... just thing about all the departments... legal, purchasing, finance, human resources, streets, building inspections, trash collection, etc. Just think of the buying power we would have on a county-wide basis for services like trash collection and brush pickup, snow removal, etc.

The average taxpayer no longer has a "traditional" pension. Most of us must invest and manage our own 401k plan. Some people choose to invest additional money in IRA's or other similar products.

There once was a time when part of the justification for government workers having "excellent benefits" was that their pay was somewhat below what could be earned in the private sector... so that was one way to make up for it.

Over the last several decades not only has the pay of government workers risen to the point where it has parity with the private sectors; there are more and more instances where it actually exceeds the pay in the private sector.

Private sector pay has been slashed. We have suffered through cutbacks, reductions, outsourcing, insourcing, and the exportation of jobs overseas. Healthcare and retirement benefits have declined. Mandatory contributions to the plans that are even offered are at all time highs.

Hundreds of thousands of taxpaying workers in this country have no health care
and no retirement benefits at all. It is not as simple as having made a poor career choice. Besides I'd rather hear that someone went into police work because their passion was to be the best police officer ever... not because the job offered great retirement... what would that tell me about that persons drive, motivation, and competence? Is some one who is counting the days to retirement at age 50 really going to put their life on the line against a hardened criminal or sneak off into the sunset instead?

No one is suggesting that government workers don't receive benefits or retirement. What is being suggested is that the entire benefit package be on par with what is today considered to be a "middle of the road" benefit package... not too frugal... not too extravagant.

Government workers should help defray the cost of the medical insurance jsut like everyone else. Government works should contribute to social security and to their own 401k plans just like everyone else. Government workers should be expected to work until 65 or 70 before collecting "retirement" benefits just like everyone else. Or in the case of "early retirement" there should be a major reduction in the monthly benefit payout just like everyone else.

d

It seems pretty simple to me: He should NOT be able to double-collect from Naperville while working, period!

I have no issue with him earning two pensions (though I will point out that few American workers under the age of 50 actually have "pensions" at all!). My issue is that we, the taxpayers, will be paying both the $85,000.00 pension per annum PLUS the $185,000.00 salary AT THE SAME TIME. If he gets the City manager's job, he shold be forced to put his $85,000.00 pension on hold.

Belinda-

“It just seems to me these are long term Naperville Residents who can no longer afford to live in Naperville.”

I can’t help but think that you’re reading into other people’s motives which you could not possibly know. Not everyone selling their older home is doing so because they can no longer afford Naperville. There are a number of reasons these people are selling, from retiring to a warmer climate to just “cashing in” as their property has never been worth so much. A home near me recently sold and the owners bought one of the new “mansions” just down the block. Obviously, they could afford to stay.

The “double dipping” issue you lament is not causing the city to be unaffordable. Marshal is already getting a police pension and the city will pay someone (maybe Marshal) a pension in ten years after hiring a new city manager. The money will be spent either way and the fact that it could go to one person does not change the amount of money being paid out.

T.B.

Belinda –

I don’t know if you’re against all pensions or just what you deem to be the excessive pensions earned by the fire and police personnel. Either way, comparing a pension plan to Social Security is apples and oranges. Social Security is meant to be a social safety net, nothing more. Social Security is not a pension plan and should not be compared to a pension plan.

When considering the fire and police pensions maybe you should also take into account some of the reasons these positions have pensions. We’re not talking about your average office job here. These careers are very different than most and should be treated as such.

Fire and police jobs are demanding, both physically and mentally. Most have minimum health and fitness standards which have to be maintained to remain on the force. The old joke about cops being at Dunkin Doughnuts is going by the wayside as most now recognize the need for better fitness (and healthier eating habits). Even the new Chicago PD chief is considering or already implementing new fitness standards.

Fire and police jobs generally pay less than private sector jobs. Yes, job security is generally greater with a government job, but the sacrifice made is that the pay scale usually does not compare to the private sector. I’m not saying that fire and police personnel live in the poor house, but they have given up some of the luxuries others take for granted with higher salaries. Fire and police personnel live comfortably, but they’ll never be rich.

Fire and police jobs generally have a mandatory retirement age due to the physical nature of their positions. How many people do you think would sign up for a job without a pension where you would get kicked out the door around age 57 and have to look for work again? How employable are people in their 50’s when they loose their jobs, especially if they have to change careers? I think Marshal is the exception in finding another job, not the rule.

Police and fire pensions are the norm, it’s not like Naperville is offering a benefit that other municipalities don’t offer. If you got your way and did away with these pensions (or greatly reduced them), how do you propose the city go about attracting quality police and fire personnel?

I had previously compared fire and police personnel to the airbags in my car. They seem very expensive and I hope I never need them, but if the need ever arises they’re worth every penny to keep my family safe.

Police and fire employees are available 24-7, they work holidays, birthdays, during children’s sporting events, and other days we all take for granted as special. I don’t begrudge their pensions. Instead, I thank them for their service and I hope they get to enjoy their retirement.

T.B.

Ken and RJ,

Regarding quotes like this one:

"What I am saying is, this still seems like a vendetta against the NPD because of some imagined conspiracy from long ago."

I assume you are refering to some Napergate Conspiracy of 6 months ago or a year ago.

I don't think the recent discussion of pensions and reduced taxation has anything to do with a policeman stopping the Napergate Man 2 years ago. I am not sure why you are bringing that up. No one else is anymore! It has become the distant past on these blog sites and let us keep it that way. I can assure you the Napergate Man would be more interested in fighting high taxation than fighting silly .40 cent tickets. The fact that he pled guilty and paid his 100 dollar fine should have told everyone on this blog site, he could care less about this petty matter. He put it behind him immediately but the bloggers who were bored apparently made an issue of it. I am glad it is dead and let us keep it dead. Hinting back at it serves no purpose! We have very important issues to discuss on this Blog Site!

Even Napergatians that blog here, no longer bring that up. It is an overcooked issue and I think most bloggers seem way beyond it so why even go back there.

I think that Napervillians, Napergatians, and Establishment Old Timers are all feeling the pain of inflation that hit us in the last 2 years. No group is immune from high taxation! Not even the millionaires that bought those mansions during the sub prime bonanza credit markets.

Sometimes a millionaire can affored 60k of taxes on his mansion but can not afford 80k of taxes. One means he can continue being a resident and one means he has to sell and leave.

I think it is our duty to help any citizen living in Naperville to afford the current tax structure by keeping taxes to a minimum, by watching and controlling our CITY SPENDING. Hopefully, Council Man Bob, would agree!

Sometimes I see arrogance on these blog sites. Well, if you can not afford Naperville, get out of here. Real people are hurt by such comments and I think they have no place on these blog sites.

Everything should be done to help as many residents as possible afford this town. It should not be a town of only millionaires. Let us have diversity. Most old timers living within one or two miles of downtown are not millionaires. They did more than any of us to help make Naperville the beautiful town it is.

When I drive on Hillside Rd, just east of downtown, the contrast is so remarkable. It seems like half the old residents sold their small homes to millionaires who demolished them and built mansions. The other half, have signs indicating they are ready to sell to the next millioniaire or multi-millionaire!

It just seems to me these are long term Naperville Residents who can no longer afford to live in Naperville. They are selling and moving to Plainfield, Oswego, Crest Hill or whatever suburb is affordable. Personally, I hate to see these old timers leaving, but to just tell them good riddens if you can not afford our town is so insulting.

How about thank you for all you did to make Naperville what it is today? How about telling them how much we appreciate all they did for this town? Telling them we are sorry you can not afford it now, but hopefully one day you can and you will be back. How about telling them we will miss you!

I find RJ's comments to some of the residents who can no longer afford Naperville insulting and arrogant. Maybe, if we did not have to go overboard with allowing former City Employees to retire with potentially 115k in retirement pensions, they could still afford Naperville.

If we can bring reason and rationality to paying fair wages and proper retirement benefits to our city employees, maybe just maybe, some old time residents who live here can remain here with us.

Let us give it a shot and try to implement some reasonable changes that bring fairness to both important City Employees and hard working taxpaying residents!

Councilman Bob,

I appreciate the fact that you care to answer my questions. That means a very lot to me since you are an elected official and are responding to a citizen.

I hope our communication with you, always remain civil. I hope all bloggers show you respect whether they agree with you or disagree with you.

I hope you set an example to other city council members to begin communicating with us on these Blog Sites.

I know it is not the same as coming to your office but these days both parents have to work to make ends meet. With the higher price of gasloine and food combined with higher taxes most of us are taking second jobs and working whenver we can. The world suddenly changed.

We can conserve a lot of gas if we can all learn to communicate on these Blog Sites in a professional manner.

I feel I am under attack by some bloggers just for asking questions.

It seems like that people that are receiving pensions are ready to put up a battle before losing their pensions....that is their right. But we have a right to question it and eliminate it if it is no longer practical or affordable. Corporate employees put up battles too before losing their pensions...but we lost them many years ago due to tough economic times.

I don't think government employees should be exempt from cutbacks during tough economic times. Increasing taxes to infinity can solve all problems for cities and their employees....temporarily! But there comes a time when the average citizen can no longer afford higher and higher taxes.

I think it would be wise for the City of Naperville to make some cutbacks before a grassroots movement develops against high taxation.

Like many others I will have to take my Bush economic stimulus check and turn it over to the City of Naperville and Dupage County due to increased taxes. Many of my neighbors are doing the same. It defeats the purpose when one branch of government tries to help and another branch of goverment taketh the help away!

I am really not sure how government works. Maybe there was a time that the City Council voted pensions in for the police and fire departments. Maybe it was done to match civilian pensions.

Maybe it is time for the City Council to vote government pensions out and match the elimination of civilian or corporate pensions.

I just want us to be on a level playing field. We finance our social security....they finance their pensions. We don't subsidize theirs...they don't subsidize ours.

What irks me is the line on my real estate tax bill that indicates I may be financing someone else's retirement pension. If it was equal to my social security so a city employee can have a comfortable retirment, I may not mind. But to finance pensions so city employeees can recieve 85k pensions and continue to work during "retirement" and receive another 30k pension after 10 more years while DOUBLE DIPPING just seems RIDICULOUS.

Allowing a City Employee to earn Retirement Pensions to the tune of 115k a year is not about letting someone live comfortably in retirement...it is about enriching someone at the back of another!

Hopefully, Councilman Bob can make the picture very clear and we can all decide what is fair and appropriate on these blog sites. Maybe it will resonate with the taxpayers and be transferred into votes that bring fairness to our town.

Once again, my many thanks to you, Councilman Bob, for your genuine concern and course of action to inquire and notify!

Sincerely,
Belinda

While you may think it is unfair, Belinda, the pension plans were worked between city officials and the police union. Everything is above board and clearly stated in the contracts, just as every other government employee is covered by the pension their union bargained for. As RJ said, if you wanted a pension like that, you should have joined government service. Just because you are realizing that you are fast approaching retirement without planning for it does not mean that the legally earned pensions of government workers should be taken away.

Poor planning on your part does not constitute a reason for taking away a pension from someone who earned it by taking a job you probably looked down upon until you found out the retirement benefits.

Belinda - I've directed your questions on police pensions to our City Finance Director. I'll post the answers by mid-week. ~CB.

Actually Belinda, a good portion of any trade unions pensions are also subsidized by the taxpayer. Any State, county and municipal projects are funded by taxpayer money, and that pension cost is built into the bid price on the job.
What I am saying is, this still seems like a vendetta against the NPD because of some imagined conspiracy from long ago.

We all fund each others pensions, every time a new vehicle is purchased, a portion of the price goes to management and worker pensions. Is it fair? No, but those who have little or no pensions can't expect those that have them to give them up.

RJ,

I am very proud of you. I have nothing against unions. I hope your pension is 200k a year. You deserve it after working 30 years.

This issue most bloggers and I are having with the police and fire pensions, is that it appears they are subsidized by the taxpayers to very large tune. This is reflected on our tax bills.

If the union is taking 20% of a police officers pay and can give him 85k a year at age 51, more power to the police, the police chief, the union and the city council. But obviously this is not happening and not the case. They may be taking a smaller amount out of their paychecks, that can give police what Social Security gives private citizens.

Suddenly they decide police should get $85,000 pension at age 51 after working 30 years. The money could never be there for that kind of money from say a 7.65% pension tax comparable to the FICA tax for S.S. Suddenly each tax payer is paying 200-1000 dollars to finance this police pension...depending upon the value of their home.

Social Security will be bankrupt in 2030 according to many experts. They don't pay fully until you reach 70 which is a few years before you body is scheduled to die. Imagine S.S. can barely pay retirees a few thousand bucks a month for 7 years assuming average life span is 77 years for a male.

Somehow a pension can pay retirees 7k per month for 26 years no problem. S.S. even decreases the amount you receive if you have a second job and despite a contribution of 7.65% from you and 7.65% from your employer, they can not make ends meet.

For the police pension fund to be able to make the payments they are making, it MUST be milking the taxpayers. It obviously is! We have checked our Real Etate Tax Bills. Have you checked yours, RJ?

Again, I am fine with your pension, RJ, as you earned it by paying for it. You deserve it! Your private employer may have contributed to it. But the police pension is a different story. It is unreasonable and it is being financed with taxpayer money in an absurd manner.

I don't mind paying police officers from my taxpayer money. But I should not have to pay for their retirement in a way that equals 5 times what my retirment will be. It just seems unfair and unreasoable!!!

Anonymous wrote on May 26, 2008 12:23 AM

"RJ,Maybe you forget that if you don't like Home Depot you can shop elsewhere like Menards, Lowe's, Ace, True Value, etc."

And maybe you forget that if you don't like Naperville, you can move elsewhere, like Aurora, Lisle, Plainfield, Oswego, etc.

" You are so naive and obviously have no clue about what life is like in the real world. When you "retire" from being a government worker try getting a real job in the real world. Once you have walked the walk you will realize how little you currently understand."

I do have a job in the real world and it has nothing to do with any Government agency. I belong to a trade union, 30 year member of the IUOE local 150, I make good money , have outstanding health care and will have a nice pension. Like I said Anon, don't blame others for your poor career choice. I chose mine, and from the all the whining going on around here, I'd say I made a better choice than others.

"We intend to CHANGE the game. The problem with union members is that you all BELIEVE that nothing will ever change. Change is coming believe that. Different pensions, different pension rules, different pension contributions are just some examples."

Oh, we know things can change, we have been watching non union white collar grunt workers take it up the shorts for years, while the upper management gets raises, bonuses, golden parachutes at your expense. Too bad you don't have anyone to represent your interests, isn't it?

"The police union can and will whine, but the reality is that is all they can do. There are simply one heck of a lot more voters than police and they will be powerless to do anything except go along with the change or quit and get a real job in the real world.
That is the beautiful part of being an American citizen... when something isn't fair or right we get to change it!"

Actually, the whining is coming from the likes of you Anon. Whining how anyone, especially the Naperville Police, who makes more than you, or has a better pension shouldn't be allowed to and demand that they are lowered to your level.

You are correct about being able to change things when they aren't right, you should try it Anon, if you can't afford the Naperville address, there are other options, like move to a town with less prestige and lower costs. Or you could always get a better job. I hear garbage collectors make a pretty good wage, have great health care and pensions.

What a joke..All the crying and whining, if you don't like it here then MOVE! go to another town and see what you get for your money.

I'll bet most of Naperville's employees don't even make enough to live in Napervile.

If you want change then talk to the people who control it...Your elected council...but then you wouldn't have anything to rag about would you??

By Bubo on May 25, 2008 11:06 PM
Councilman Bob,

Welcome back!

Yes, there are lot of stones flying in all directions. Lively free speech.

In another day, you could challenge Walter to a duel on the back lawn of the City Hall. Ahhh, the good old days.

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Councilman Bob!

I also want to wish you a sincere welcome back!

I think in the good old days, the Napergate Man did challenge everyone to a duel in the front or back lawn of City Hall.

No one wanted to step forward and challenge him!

Now, it seems like Councilman Bob wants to challenge everyone to a duo in the front or back lawn of City Hall.

No one is stepping forward! How ironic?

Go figure!

I can not figure anything out!

Maybe Councilman Bob can just answer questions on this blog site. It is a different era apparently where people would rather be anonymous especially since the Naperville Sun offered us this option. We are simply taking advantage of an option the Sun offered us!

If Councilman Bob answered questions here he would be reaching at least 60,000 weekly views. The last time the Sun revealed its "hit tally." I am sure the "hit tally" is much more now.

It puzzles me why Councilman Bob does not want to answer questions here so we can all read them jointly. We all want to know the answers...not just one "brave" e-mailer!

Here is one question for you Councilman Bob....how much does a police officer pay towards his pension per paycheck as a percent of his gross income? What do the taxpayers directly and indirectly pay towards his pension? Do policemen and firemen have equal pensions?

I think it is fascinating that an average person with Social Security is lucky to make a 2k a month in benefits upon retirement at age 70. Yet police officers like Drew Peterson and Bob Marshall are taking in 6-8k per month in benefits in their early 50s with the right to take second jobs even with the same employer with no reduction in their RETIREMENT BENEFITS!

Could you explain this?

I think what is upsetting residents is that we are financing these pensions from our taxes and it is almost becoming unbearable in these difficult economic conditions.

If police officers are paying for their pensions with their own money, I doubt anyone has a problem.

But if the taxpayers are paying for these huge pensions with their tax money, one has to understand why they see unfairness in the established system of taxation and benefits.

I tried to be as civil as possible, Councilman Bob!

I hope you can give me the courtesy of answering my questions. I think your answers will be helpful to all Napervillians in order to have a better understanding of how our city and its pension funds work.

There seems to be no communication from our City Officials. If you can provide the communication residents are seeking, I assure you that you will be held in high estemm by all parties. Their is a real thirst for knowledge and facts on this Blog Site. Unfortunately, no one has provided what is needed yet. I hope you can contribute to solving some of our problems through answering a few questions!!!

RJ,

Maybe you forget that if you don't like Home Depot you can shop elsewhere like Menards, Lowe's, Ace, True Value, etc. Nice try at an analogy, too bad it sucked.

"Yet not a peep from the faithful corporate soldiers."?? You are so naive and obviously have no clue about what life is like in the real world. When you "retire" from being a government worker try getting a real job in the real world. Once you have walked the walk you will realize how little you currently understand.

"Don't blame the player, blame the game."? Nope. You just don't get it. We intend to CHANGE the game. The problem with union members is that you all BELIEVE that nothing will ever change. Change is coming believe that. Different pensions, different pension rules, different pension contributions are just some examples. Remember this, nothing is carved in stone. There are no birthrights or entitlements here, just an existing set of rules. The rules can and will be changed. At one time the rules were a little to far to the right and they were changed. Now they are too far the left and people are calling for and demanding change. Will the rules move back towards the middle or move further back to the right will depend upon how fed up and mad citizens are with the current situation.

The police union can and will whine, but the reality is that is all they can do. There are simply one heck of a lot more voters than police and they will be powerless to do anything except go along with the change or quit and get a real job in the real world.

That is the beautiful part of being an American citizen... when something isn't fair or right we get to change it!

Councilman Bob,

Welcome back!

Yes, there are lot of stones flying in all directions. Lively free speech.

In another day, you could challenge Walter to a duel on the back lawn of the City Hall. Ahhh, the good old days.

Acting as your alter ego, "COUNCILMAN", you probably look like a good target to some.

You may want to add a helmet and shield to your cape when logged on with your true identity ;-)

Question for Host Ted (May 21 @ 4:30 PM) –

Feel free to disagree with me, I have not problem with that. But don’t (mis)read into what I have written.

I take issue with you spouting a certain group’s talking points that I somehow “talks in circles”. Please state exactly how I am or ever have talked in circles. Point out exactly where that occurred. My guess is you won’t be able to because you’re only repeating what others have said, even if they lacked any and all credibility and reason.

You’re free to your opinion that “[n]urses and teachers have much more stresful jobs than police officers”. Though all of those positions can be stressful, only one position requires the employee to wear body armor and carry a gun. Why do you think that is?

I do not put a dollar figure on any one person’s career, but I think that paying for a QUALITY police force is money well spent. You want to pay our cops cheaply? Go check out Stone Park or some other area where police corruption is well-known. I prefer to have a well trained, well educated, and dedicated police force even if it means paying more.

I never said I thought less of a teacher or nurse or that they were “apparently…worth 20,000 less than a police officer”. Nice try, but those were YOUR words, not mine. You obviously do not know what I “apparently” think.

You seem sort of like Maryann. Can you possibly make a point without distorting what someone else has written?

T.B.

By Anonymous on May 24, 2008 7:08 PM
People who have no pensions are forced to pay for other peoples pensions thru taxes. This is not right, fair, or just.

________________________________________________________

Do I detest a little envy? The people who have no pensions obviously made a poor career choice. Funny how once again, the NPD is singled out. No vendetta here.

Speaking of pensions, those of you in the corporate world never seem to have a problem with the pay and pensions Sr. management at your corporations make. We pay for them also, with increased costs of whatever the corp. produces. How about that Home Depot deal? Look at the deal the fired CEO got, you don't think that cost is passed on to the consumer? Yet not a peep from the faithful corporate soldiers. Their pay, pensions and health care costs take a beating annually, yet they all bow down and take it and then complain about those who have it better.

Give me a break, if you aren't happy with your pay package, go get a job or a join trade union where the pay and benefits are better, don't expect everyone else to be dragged down to your level. Heck, your garbage man makes more than a cop and gets as good a pension, thanks to you, but no one is complaining about that. Don't blame the player, blame the game.

Who is qualified on the City Council to find a City Manager? Boyajian, let him present the top three plus Marshal to the Council for selection!

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Mr. Bubo,

You want an establishment guy like Boyajian to control the selection process. Wow! Why not the entire City Council jointly? All were elected equally and Boyajian should not have any prefential treatment.

It sounds like you already made the cut of 4 and Mr. Marshall made your cut of 4. Are u telling me he is the top 4 in the nation for this very important position by the fact the estbalishment got him to where he is?

Retirement Pension for government employees is like Social Security for private employees. If one sector can't collect, the other sector should also not be able to collect till retirement. Ironically the sector that is collecting before retirement is the one that controls the retirement benefits for the private citizens who do not collect until the age of 62-70. Furthermore, it is those who are in government, collecting their pesnions early and allowed to work second jobs, are the ones that determine that the private sector employees must give up a substatial portion of their S.S. depending on how many hours they work.

This is not Mr. Marsahll's fault. It is just a corrupt system that needs to be changed. But with three former or current policmen occupying the 3 most powerful positions in Naperville, do you expect anyone of them would make the slightest attempt to change the system?

Why would you want people in power, who would never change the system and equalize the private and public sectors? Are you part of the government sector that is currently benefitting?

Either you are a government employee or a whacko who does not mind being treated unfairly at the expense of others! Which is it?

On Walter's 5/24 10:24pm post: No one at City Hall shut me up, and I haven't been robotized by any "Establishment Monarchy". (I wouldn't know where to find one of those if I tried.) On not popping my head on this blog site much, here's what I recently told an emailer:

"Debbie - I tried to read the postings on the Sun's blog up till a couple of months ago. The reason I stopped reading them is that the strings seemed to degenerate into name-calling and conspiracies being dreamed up by 6-7 of the same anonymous individuals. The couple of times I posted and offered to meet with, talk by phone with, or even exchange emails with, the individuals posting, absolutely no one took me up on that offer. I'm hoping this isn't true of every blog, but the Sun's seems just to be a place where people engage in what I've begun to call Word Rage, which is similar to Road Rage in that the individuals can act aggressively while remaining mostly anonymous. Do you think that the postings on the Sun's blog have gotten any more level-headed so that I don't have to wade through a bunch of wacky ones before getting to ones that make some sense??"

I later told that emailer that I'd start reading and maybe responding to blog postings again, so that's what I'm doing. It'll be interesting to see whether they've gotten any more civil. Once again, though, I'd much prefer to handle specific information requests person-to-person, and not via blog postings that can be anonymously attacked and misconstrued. Anyone can then post or do what they wish with information they get through me. I can be reached via email (fieselerr@naperville.il.us), phone 630.305.5333 or in person at my City Hall office where I work most every Tuesday and Thursday. ~Councilman Bob.

Anonymous,
Very well said. I agree with you fully. It is almost like all of our council members, both Establishment and Napergatians, simply do not care.

They are happy to go to these bimonthly meetings, collect there $1000 in wages and benefits, and go home. It is like they are being paid off to shut up.

It is almost like our City Council are too lazy to investigate this corrupt police and fire pension plan and institute change. It is almost like they are afraid they will be reprimanded like DF was when he spoke out.

Even if the Napergatians don't have the numbers to institute change, it is inexcusable they are not at least voicing their opinions so the thousands of us who watch them on TV. know they have not deserted to the Brestal, Wehrli and Moser camps.

Where is Council Bob who popped his head on this blog site and stated he would answer questions. That lasted about 2 minutes before someone in City Hall shut him up. It just shows you even our City Council Members have been roboted by the Establishment Monarchy that runs the City of Naperville.

I hope something is done before no one can afford their taxes anymore because of these excessive pensions~!

I believe the Naperville Sun is our last hope. The city council members seem very hopeless...very useless...very selfish!!!

Did Marshal earn his pension? YES

Does he deserve a shot at the City Manager job? YES

Is the salary for City Manager out of line? NO

Should the City Council perform due diligence and see who else is out there? YES

Should Mr. Marshal have his CV in front of other cities looking for Managers? YES

Should the City Council take over and find a new City Manager? Yes

Who is qualified on the City Council to find a City Manager? Boyajian, let him present the top three plus Marshal to the Council for selection!

Bill,

That is part of the problem. You don't care and you should.

These out-of-control public pensions are going to become a larger and larger burden upon us all and many families can no longer afford what it cost to subsidize these benefit plan today. People who have no pensions are forced to pay for other peoples pensions thru taxes. This is not right, fair, or just.

A cop retiring after 30 years, still in the prime of his work years, and being allowed to collect a pension is not right to start with. Allowing him to retire and then go back to work is not retirement and there should be no retirement benefit until he chooses to stop work. He has not choosen to stop work so he should not be collecting retirement.

The system is insane and needs reform. Maybe Marshall's biggest sin is that he made us all blatantly aware of how corrupt the police retirement program is. That doesn't change the fact that it is corrupt and needs reform. That doesn't give any of the right to condone it and shrug our shoulders and just say... oh well he earned it. That is a cop out, pardon the pun, that is shirking our responsibility as citizens. Being a good citizen means you stand up tall and demand change when you realize something is wrong in governement and right not the police pension system is wrong... very, very wrong.

Why is it wrong for a police officer to make more than a Doctor? Why is it wrong for a person who is responsible for one of the wealthiest cities with some of the best schools in the Chicagoland area to make a really good paycheck? If you have been living in Naperville for the last 10 years you can at least be sure that the City Manager has had some impact on the economy of this town, which in turn has meant that the value of your home has gone up. If we were a city of 20,000 people, a City Manager earning $178K a year would be pretty unreasonable. Consider where we are folks. Now, if Marshall deserves the job on his qualifications and execution of it up to this point, I have no idea. That is not the point. Police pension doesn't matter either. It was a benefit. That is like saying you already chose one career so you can't have another. If you don't want pensions in government jobs, then we should be petitioning our government to establish 401K plans or something else that is more politically in line with benefits today.

Do a majority of Naperville residents prefer to pay for excellent services, or pay less for diminished services?

=================================================================

Host Ted,
You are assuming the City of Naperville is operating at 100% efficiency. I seriously doubt that. You are assuming there is no excess fat in City Hall. I doubt that! You are assuming jobs can not be made easier or combined through technology. I doubt that!

I and most residents are asking for excellent services at less cost. No one is supporting diminished services!

Did CEO Pamela Davis diminish services in laying off 126 employees in the last week as was reported by your newspaper? I think she did a study and discovered excess fat she could shed. I do not think Ms. Davis would ever risk the reputation of her hospital by diminishing its superb services. She is an excellent administrator who schedules nurses for 36 hours knowing they will still get 40 per week. They get their hours and she avoids costly OT.

How come Chief David Dial can't learn a few tricks from someone as accomplished as Ms. Davis? Possibly because the City Council does not know how to pressure him. Neither is his former employee who is the City Manager and boss now, capable of pressuring him. Probably feels uncomfortable pushing around his X boss who helped him get an
$85,000 pension and gave him a good recommendation. Thus the need for an outsider to crack the whip like it has never been cracked before and force the reduction of costs at no diminishment of services.

Lay off 3% of the staff and force the remaining 97% to work 3% harder so we have 0 diminishment in services. Are u saying our city employees can't work 3% harder, Host Ted? Everyone including yourself can work 3% harder. When you were working from 7am to 1am to get this site on its feet, you were working 200% harder for no extra pay. I doubt you are an hourly employee...if you were, the Naperville Sun would have filed for bankruptcy! We are not asking City Officials to demand anyone match what you did. That may be impossible. We are only asking 3% more efficiencly...not 200% as you did to get this Blog Site rolling and successful. More efficiency to compensate for 3% lay-offs. Happens every day in Corporate America and cities who do not dare rasise taxes like Naperville.

Just like our bodies sometimes develop fat we don't need, our corporations and cities also develop fat they don't need. At some point you have to shed this excess fat and be more productive and healthy! Naperville needs to do the same. Since it is not willing to do it voluntarily some tough love may be required to accomplish diminished cost without diminished services! I hope you and Moderator Jim can help in this endeavor!!!

Response from Naperville Sun editors:

The City Council approves the budget, does it not? Is it not up to the City Council to direct the administration to cut costs? The elected leaders answer to the public, the administration answers to the elected leadership. If you want costs cut, proper procedures would dictate that you take those concerns to your elected representatives.

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Host Ted,
You are exactly right. Of course I want costs cut. All residents want costs cut and taxes reduced.

It would be much more effective if you as a powerful newspaper challenged the City of Naperville to match the efforts of CEO Pamela Davis of 3% staff cuts across the board.

None of us individually have the power of the Naperville Sun. You and Moderator Jim have tons of power when you choose to exercise it in your editorials and demand change.

But you must demand change in a blunt manner. City Officials don't get it when you pinch them gently or talk in circles. You have to hit them right between the eyes to get action. You have to bring heat on them! You have to bring pressure on them!

The Napergate Man was very effective using your newspaper to bring change. We all know the Naperville Sun did wonders for him and this community by allowing him to publish those Napergate ads. The City Council responded to his pressure.

What makes you think the City Council would not respond to pressure that you and Moderator Jim bring to bear on them through your newspaper. My suspicion is they will respond to you as they responded to the Napergate Man...I think even better!!!

What advantage do you guys believe the Napergate Man had over you guys? Personally, I feel you have a significant advantage over him and could be twice as productive if you chose to put the screws to the City Council. As you stated that is where we have to go, as they set the policies. At least we agree on that point!

Response from Host Ted:

You give us too much credit. As I've said before, we respond to what people in the community say and do. Residents who sign up to address the council at meetings get our attention. That's doing something in the real world, as opposed to words in this virtual reality. And as a general-interest newspaper in a democracy where majority rules, we tend to think we respond to what the majority wants, though at times a vocal minority gets our attention. It comes down to this: Do a majority of Naperville residents prefer to pay for excellent services, or pay less for diminished services?

Moderator Jim and Host Ted,

It was reported by one of your bloggers that recently your employer, the Chicago Sun-Times, had lay-offs. I am assuming if was not true you would have not posted a false comment knowingly!

Today your newspaper reports the sharp and shrewd Chief Executive Officer of Edward's Hospital laid off 92 employees. Last week she laid off an additional 34 at Linden Oaks which is owned by Edward's Hospital.

That is almost 3% of her employees laid off in the span of a week. She noticed expenses were rising higher than revenues and combined with tough economic times she did what she had to do. I am impressed with her. I once had the fortune of meeting her personally in her office and she impressed me as someone who walks the walk and not just talks the talk.

Getting to the point, has City Manager Pro-Tem Bob Marshall laid off one single employee. Not to my knowledge! Nothing in the Naperville Sun or Daily Herald to that effect. If he was a good manager, he would have instituted some lay-offs and found some excess fat. If a manager of a city the size of Naperville can not find one bit of excess fat, in my opinion he is not qualified to be Manager of the best city in the United States.

Has he found two jobs that could be consolidated into one because of technology! Not to my knowledge!

Doing nothing is why we have experienced 15-25% increases in the Naperville portion of our Real Estate Tax Bills. Doing nothing is going to make the situation go from bad to worse!

The City Council needs to demand that Mr. Bob Marshall find a way to reduce his staff by 3% without missing a beat in services. It can be done easily. All this means is that the remaining employees have to put out 3% more to make up for the loss of 3% of the employees. How many employees at City Hall can say they don't waste 3% of their day? Took longer breaks than they should. Got to work late! Left work early! Wrote a personal e-mail on city time!
Made a personal phone call on city time!

This kind of thing happens in both city and corporate life. When times get tough corps stop it and become more productive to survive bad and hard economic times. However the City of Naperville does not do anything to make employees more efficient in bad economic times. They allow them to continue in their inefficient ways, and simply raise taxes to the residents who are struggling in these recessionary times.

Well, the tax increases have reached the point of intolerable to most citizens. As anonymous said before me, it is time to run a new slate of candidates. I don't care if it is a Napergate Slate or any kind of slate. But our current City Council is not doing enough. I think we need to sweep the entire City Council out of office including the 3 Napergate Council Members who are not doing enough. Even though they don't have the majority vote, I don't see or hear them making proposals or fighting for the citizens in City Council meetings. The seem to be afraid to raise their voices in opposition. It seems like not only Rosanova was gobbled by the Establishment but all of them are. Even Dick Furstenau took a 2000 dollar contribution from the Brestal Law Firm.

I can not imagine the frustration the Napergatge Man must be feeling. He tries to get people in office to induce change and instead they are inducted with establishment ideology and begin conforming. As some said on these blogs, it is just like that Stepford Wives movie.

The Napergate Man may have just given up after trying for 20 years. We have to accept that we were not there for him in the way he needed us when he was there for us.

So it is a new era and chapter today. We all have to vote in masses like never before and clean the city council of all its members and simply start all over again.

We need a City Council who can demand 3% staff reduction. We need a City Council who can demand a 10% budget cut. We need a City Council that can bring Police OT to under a half a million dollars. We need a City Council that schedules police to work 36 hours a week so when they have late arrests, they can deal with them on straight time instead of OT. Most hospital now are scheduling nurses to work three 12-hour shifts to avoid OT. Nurse always have to stay a half an hour to an hour over during transition so with 36 hours scheduled, they have a 4 hour safety valve before they hit OT.

As we can all see the City of Naperville does nothing under the leadership of Mr. Marshall. The Naperville Police Dept. does nothing under the leadership of Chief David Dial. The Fire Department lost their Chief and I doubt they are doing anything either.

Is this the kind of City we want to live in? One that refuses to evaluate for excess fat once a decade or in recessionary times! One that believes police officers should have pensions in retirement that exceed the pay of most police officers while working full time. A city that is not willing to bust the union "once and for all" and end unaffordable pensions just like they were ended for corporations.

Are u getting a pension Mr. Moderator or Mr. Host? I doubt it! So I hope you can relate to the unfairness, I am discussing! Are you happy about subsiding the retirements of those who make more than you do? I doubt either of you make the $113,000 Mr. Marshall made before he retired or even his pension of $85,000 he is currently receiving in addition to his 150k salary. Host Ted use to work from 7am to 1am non-stop. Show me one police officer who worked that hard for a full year. If Host Ted was able to be on police wages he would have made half a million last year and the Napeville Sun would have filed bankruptcy. Thanks for all that donated time, Host Ted! Thanks Moderator for not increasing your edition price from .50 cent to a dollar so you pay Host Ted his deserved half a million. Thanks for having the common sense to do the practical thing and keep the Naperville Sun affordable to all residents in these very trying times.

What are we afraid? Let the police all go on strike. The National Guard, State and County police by charter will have to protect Naperville until they hire new non-union police for reasonable salaries who agree to join the Social Security pools like the rest of us USA Citizens and Naperville Residents. We should all be treated equally.

As many have said before me, it is not fair to tax the residents at such high rates so police officers can walk off with 85k pensions at the age of 51. And take another job with the city making twice that much plus build for yet another second pension upon a second retirement. Only in Naperville can such insane things take place.!

How come pensions are not put on hold when government employees are gainfully employed. How ironic that the government that controls our Social Security feels it is necessary for us not collect fully until we hit age 70 and are almost dead. But yet at the same time they allow themselves, the government employees to collect full pension many times the size of Social Security at age 51. (For those who may not know you can collect S.S. when you turn 62 at the earliest.... but only partial....full retirement benefits only happens at age 70 if you are lucky to live that long)

How ironic that the government that administers Social Security demands we cough up our S.S. or at least a large part of it if we continue to work after receiving it? While these same government employees who administer our Social Security receive government pensions like Mr. Marshall.....how unfair!

Why should only the Napergate Man and Napergatians be outraged? Why is not every one of us Naperville Residents outraged? Don't we see what is happening? Don't we see that we are getting shafted? Don't we care? Is there no leader in this town of 150,000 but the Napergate Man to lead us? He served 20 years and should be allowed to move on to other avenues of his life....but what about the duty of the rest of us....do we not have a duty to ourselves and each other!

Many of us have not even spent a week fighting City Hall. We have to put in our fair share of time. We have to try! We have to organize! We have to fill City Hall Chambers up and demand that something be done like Chief Pamela Davis is doing for Edward's Hospital. Kudos to Pamela Davis!

I hope the day comes when I can say Kudos to our Mayor! When I can say Kudos to our City Manager! And last but not least when I can say Kudos to our Police Chief! I hope the day is near. I hope it is in my lifetime!

Response from Naperville Sun editors:

The City Council approves the budget, does it not? Is it not up to the City Council to direct the administration to cut costs? The elected leaders answer to the public, the administration answers to the elected leadership. If you want costs cut, proper procedures would dictate that you take those concerns to your elected representatives.

Yes, giving a police officer RETIREMENT pension to the tune of 85k is ridiculous.

If you work even while over 62 which is the earliest retirment age for Social Security, they chop away at your measly check depending upon how much you make. The more you make the more they reduce your Social Security check even though you are in your Golden Years and not your prime years like Mr. Marshall.

Mr. Marshall is not an evil man. He just took advantage of an evil system created by evil men. Kind of lke a rich person who takes advantage of gray areas on his Federal Tax Return to end up paying 0 taxes while the middle class pay through the roof.

The City Council and the House of Representatives need to end pension completley. No reason why city employees can't join the Social Security system like the rest of us. Are they better than us?
Why do we have to pay towards their retirment? They don't pay towards ours. Fair is fair!

Let us go for the complete overhaul starting at City Hall and moving towards the state. Let us be brave and bust the union.

If police and firemen won't work as non-union, at 55k annual starting pay, hundreds if not thousands are waiting to replace them. Young people are joining the Armed Forces for one-fifth or less of what an NPD Officer makes while truly RISKING their lives for us.

The NPD are keeping Naperville safe. We appreciate that. But they are not risking their lives like our Armed Forces day and night in Iraq and Afghanistan.

If Marshall is appointed to City Manager, with Chief Dial heading the police dept. and Mayor Pradel a former cop heading the City Council, the chance of reforming pension becomes zero. Betwen those 3, since all 3 benfit, they may decide to triple pension.

It seems that it is time for very brilliant and determined residents to start running for City Council so the system can be overhauled. I believe the pay is 10k per year and they pay your health insurance. So it is about 20k a year with benefits and you only have to work 24 days a year. Almost a 1000 dollars for each meeting. Go for it but once elected please don't become part of the system....reform the system! Don't get bought or influenced out when elected, as it seems Council Member John Rosanova may have been by the Brestal Law Firm through the employment of his son. Stand firm and steadfast in resisting all temptations that lead to conflicts of interest. BE BRAVE!!!

We live in a very wealthy suburb...within a nation where 1 in 6 of our children face poverty daily. I understand that not all of us have children, but all children grow up...and we will need to face them as "contributers" to our society or "pay" for them (due to incarceration, institutionalization, etc.). What sort of world will we face if we continue to ignore the "least amongst us"? We are already seeing a shortage of nurses and other needed individuals that we all will most likely rely upon at some point to provide each of us care. I am concerned when I read articles, such as this one, regarding costly pensions and other forms of "subsidizing the wealthy". It's not that individuals haven't "earned them", but rather - if they are still employed anywhere - why are they able to claim their "retirement pay" now? We have families in our community that are taking out multiple mortgages and raiding their 401ks to pay for their children's day care (yes, day care - not college...daycare runs around $1,000/month per child in our city!) and medical expenses...not to mention gas to travel to and from jobs that often are not even paying them $85K/year.

Societies, in the long run, are typically judged by how they care for the most desperate "in their midst". How will we be judged by future generations if we continue to take money we don't "need" or not stand up and challenge those who permit it? We are losing our middle class quickly and those who can defer payment of such costly pensions would be true heros to allow such monies to go to those who are struggling to survive. Let's make housing more affordable, fix our roads, implement universal health care and examine other ways to support one another.

Pensions should be reserved for true retirement...not disbursed while employed in any capacity. What kind of a world are we going for? We may be insulated, here in Naperville, for a while. But, in the long run, we too will see the high costs of taking from the masses to give to the few. Especially, when the "few" can afford to "wait".

The Good 'ol Boy Network is obviously alive and well in the City of Naperville. How about posting the job and seeing who is the best qualified for the job vs. just patting your friend on the back indicating that he's a "shoo-win".

Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. We will NEVER know unless the job is posted and a search conducted from all qualified candidates.

I think Mr. Marshall should do this job pro bono. He already gets plenty. If he wants the job (as he says he does) that overature will cinch it for him!

The current police and fire pension systems do not make any sense in today's economy. They are in serious need of reform to get back to some reasonable sense of par with the pension plans of those who actually pay for the majority of their true cost.

Until police and fire pension systems are reformed I will be against ANY hiring of retired police or fire to fill other city jobs. Other city workers are blatantly discriminated against with this double and triple dipping system and it just is not right or fair. If these retired police and fire want to get another job after they retire, fine let them find work in the private sector and maybe for once in their work career get to experience something close to what the average taxpayer experiences in private employment.

Marshall is already collecting more money from his pension than a lot of people who are working full time earn in a year. Let Marshall enjoy his retirement that everyone claims he has so rightfully earned and let the city keep someone else who actually needs the employment working and supporting a family. Let's not forget that no one held a gun to Marshall's head and forced him out or forced him to retire. He retired by his own choice. He could still be working full time at the police department if he had wanted.

Instead of filling the City Manager position how about Marshall starts his own security firm? He can round up the rest of the retired Naperville police officers and the City of Naperville can outsource the gig over at Ribfest and Last Fling to him. Just think about how many full time police officers who will no longer be kept away from fighting real crime while they are forced to baby sit a bunch of drunks at a festival!

Let's also not forget that if Pradel wasn't the Mayor the chances of Marshall being appointed Assistant City Manager at another city similar to Naperville would have been somewhere between slim and none considering his overall lack of experience and qualifications. To counter those who seem to think Marshall may be qualified to be City Manager one would have to ask if Marshall indeed is a qualified candidate then why hasn't another city already lured him away?

McFarland et al, why do you claim others are posting under different names when you appear to be the one guilty of it? Typical of the napergate cult, you do what you accuse others of and then try to act morally superior.

If all of you cop haters think it is so easy to be a cop for thirty years and reap supposedly huge benefits, why don't you join the force? If you are too out of shape or too old, join another branch of government service so you can get a pension. According to all of you, they are easy jobs, so get one and go live the good life. I would think that given the cost of housing in Naperville it would involve a pay cut for most of you, but I guess you are the underachievers of Naperville.

By the way,public school teachers are also in a union, end their careers at a fairly high pay, and receive publicly funded pensions, which would make the teacher comparison moot (not to mention the fact that a teacher only works nine months a year, not a full year).

McFarland you asked "Why is it so hard for your newspaper with connections to City Officials to make a call and find out what percentage a police officer contributes of his salary to his pension??? A simple question, please!"

Why do you want the Sun to do your work? I would love to carry on my masters legacy, but I can't as I have to rely on others to put on my leash and lead me outside to the real world. Dude, get out and do some good, quit expecting others to do it for you. How will the Napergate slate get anywhere sitting around waiting for others? Do you think my master waited? Hell no! He got out and did something. All you Napergatians are no better than me, toss you a bone and a new flea collar and you are happy. Well I can tell you, that ain't the life, get out and do something for dog's sake.

This is TAXPAYER MONEY. Enough is enough!!

Well said NaperSouthSide

Must be a slow news day for the Sun. Bob was a police office for 30 years. He earned what he got. Bob retired as a police officer and is receiving the pension that any other officer with his rank and years of service. Period. Bob then gets another job, one that he is well qualified for. Wow, it for the same city...so what. The two are unrelated. Naperville's payout would be the same regardless of who has the job. Why would you focus on the fact the Bob happened to have another job with the city rather than he is best qualified for the job!

Host Ted,

Response from Naperville Sun editors:

The city of Naperville typically requires that a Freedom of Information Act request be filed, which can take up to seven working days to respond to. Any question regarding salaries, personnel, and most policy issues are met with the response: "You must file a FOIA request." That's why it takes time.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

I understand. It just seems so ridiculous. But you are trying!

Maybe since my question is a policy issue, a FOIA may not be required.

I just wanted to know what percent of their salaries police donate into their pension. It seems someone on this blog site may know!

I provided my e-mail to you so you know I am the old McFarland who just felt like being "Question to Host Ted" for a few hours. Not playing any games as Joe would like you to believe!

I just thought I better reveal my identity before the Group of Five come up with new Napergate Cult Conspiracy Theories.

Anyway, I think you chose a great topic, Host Ted. Hopefully, we can get some answers from other bloggers without troubling you for so many FOIAs.

I just feel when a City needs FOIA's even for policy, they have something to hide.

Thanks again for everything Host Ted and keep up the good works.

Try to do your best to keep that Group of Five calm. They have developed a hysteria that Napergatians are in their closets, under their beds and in their ducts. I hope they get over their hysteria soon. It has reached the point of a sickening psyhosis!

Radar Gun,

You are not new to the blogs. What an outright lie that a person new to the blogs can suddenly see a PATTERN! You are the Old Joe! Your style is so unique. You listen to those police blogs all day and night. It does not surprise me you would choose Radar Gun as your new handle after John Q. Public mopped the floors with your mathematical abilities and ruined your reputation.

It seems like you are now trying to restore your credibility under a new name.

I will admit that I am a Napergatian who has posted under my first name on other threads. I chose a "Question for Host Ted" in an attempt to get his attention so he would ask City Officials some questions that I felt needed to be answered.

The Moderator and Host never said we could not use titles. I saw that being used on the School Disctrict Threads and enjoyed doing the same on this thread.

If you need to know who I am Joe, I am McFarland. This is my first time posting under a different name. I expect to go back to McFarland when we have a Napergate Sanctioned Thread as I like my fellow Napergatians to know who I am. I don't see or recognize any Napergatians here so I thought I would have some fun with a title.

Is that a crime, Joe?

I would not worry about who is who. The Host and Moderator can figure out from our IP numbers who is who! They don't seem to care so why do you care so much! Is the message more important or the messenger? In your case it is the messenger! In your case your goal is to establish Radar Gun a little better than Joe, so you can get your silly rises again!

The word "his" is commonly used to refer to his or her when talking generalities. It is cumbersome to write his/her so people pick one or the other. I am sure that is what you were referring to. If someone chooses to use his or her instead of his/her they are just trying to be simple. It does not mean they know the gender of the writer with any certainty.

I have no clue if T.B. is a guy or a girl. I have referred to T.B. as a him. If I guessed right, does that mean I am him or even know him. Stop being so silly, Joe, AKA, Radar Gun!

But "Radar Gun" alias Joe, instead of worrying about Napergatians surfacing under new names, why don't you worry about yourself surfacing under a new name.

You are such a hypocrit! I admitted who I am!

Can you be a man and admit you are the Old Joe! Lol!!!

You really don't have to admit anything..it is a bit too obvious. What a way to start a new chapter of your life....with a lie!!!

Yes, "your new to the blogs" Joe and I just sold the Brooklyn Bridge for 2 cents... What a way to restore your credibility....starting with a LIE!!!

____________________________________________________________________

Host Ted,

Does it not seem kind of unusual that for the first time Joe does not show up on one of your very important threads? Is that a conincidence or what? Of course he showed up but under Radar Gun...lol..!!!

Host Ted,

Why is it so hard for your newspaper with connections to City Officials to make a call and find out what percentage a police officer contributes of his salary to his pension??? A simple question, please!

If he contributes 20% and he is fully financing the pension that subsidizes his retirement, this thread should be closed. He would be entitled to every dollar of his pension as it is his money...not taxpayer money!

If he contributes little to nothing as is my suspicion to financing the pension that subsidizes him in retirement, well this thread becomes VERY HOT!

Yes, I also paid $759.24 cents to the Naperville City Pension Fund on my Dupage Real Estate Tax Bill. I find it disturbing that I have to finance the retirement of others at the expense of my own retirement.

This T.B. character seems to never get it! As the Napergatians stated he talks in circles and appears to be full of hatred for the civilian tax paying population of Naperville! While he denies that he is a government employee, that does not necessarily make it so?

Nurses and teachers have much more stresful jobs than police officers but T.B. apparently feels they are worth 20,000 less than a police officer when starting their careers. How shameful of him to think less of a nurse or teacher than a police officer who pretty much does nothing all day but drives around and gives an occassional ticket when he/she feels like it or is in the right mood! If he/she feels like doing nothing one day, he just tells his boss there were no speeders out today and goes home collecting his 8 hours of pay without having done anything of substance!

Mr. Popo once told us all he had to do was have a few more drug posts than a patrol officer and no one will question him or hold him accountable for his time! Can you imagine that? He admitted his job was very cozy. Are you disputing a Police Officers version of his own employment, T.B.?

Teachers and nurses don't have that luxury. They work their a$$es off every day they go to work. Let us treat them fairly and pay them 20k more than cops and not 20k less than cops. They educate our kids and save our lives daily.

The inequities we are all seeing are caused by a very corrupt City Council who allowed all this INEQUALITY TO TAKE PLACE OVER THE YEARS. They simply did not have the ability or talent to negotiate with the police union. They were spineless and gave them everything at taxpayer expense.

Maybe the City Council should buy each Naperville Homeowner a tree that produces money in the back yard to afford all these extravaganzas of City Hall! Fantasy has got to stop! Reality has to sink in at some point!

Response from Naperville Sun editors:

The city of Naperville typically requires that a Freedom of Information Act request be filed, which can take up to seven working days to respond to. Any question regarding salaries, personnel, and most policy issues are met with the response: "You must file a FOIA request." That's why it takes time.

Yep, the old public union hacks are at it again. Slowly ruining the midwest. He EARNED his pension? Yeah, right. Try this instead the union controlled state legislators bowed down to the unions and gave in to their demands. That's ok, the day is coming when Illinois and many municipalities will be so empty of people to keep taxing that they will have to declare bankruptcy like San Diego did and Vallejo CA just did.

Action is Needed! on May 21, 2008 3:33 PM

Anonymous was not referring to them as she stated 2 years and not 6 years of residency or internships!

____________________________________________________________________

I'm not going to respond to your rant, but I am wondering how you would know that Anonymous (Anonymous on May 21, 2008 7:57 AM) is a woman? Nowhere in "her" post does "she" indicate gender. Could it be that Action is Needed and Anonymous 7:57 are the same person?

If so it makes the following line, "Anonymous 757am was right...you need to learn the difference between a general practioner and a SPECIALIST!", pretty interesting.

Apparently one of the Napergatian methods is to post anonymously, and then respond to your own post with different names, each time praising yourself for uncovering yet more government scandal. I'm new to the blogs, but I can see the pattern. Many blogs share the same grammer, syntax and sentence structure.

to the Moderator:

How do I edit a post? My last one challenged the investment assumption of 7.5%, but have since learned that the plan has earned 8.9% per year for the 10 year period ended 2006, so their assumption is valid. In addition, they are fully funded -- "the only major public pension fund in Illinois" that was fully funded. Kudos to the fund management/trustees. I'd like to correct my post, if possible

Response from Naperville Sun editors:

Send a corrected post and we'll delete the old one, and this one. Copy and paste your old one and make the change so you don't have to retype it all.

By To annonymous... on May 21, 2008 10:39 AM
You said:
"Only in Naperville, can a cop make more than a Doctor who goes to school for 8 years, serves 2 or 3 years internship and almost has to be the top 5% of his class to gain entrance to medical school."

Wow, really? Do you know how much a new doctor makes? I just did a google search. A new doc in internal medicine can expect $154k-$245k. A new doc in general surgery can expect $226k-$520k.

Research your ideas. That's all I'm saying.

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Anonymous 757am was right...you need to learn the difference between a general practioner and a SPECIALIST!

You are talking about doctors that specialize. Internal medicine and surgery are specialities. Much more than a 2 year internship or residency is needed to become a specialist. Many times 4 more years are neeed. Anonymous was not referring to them as she stated 2 years and not 6 years of residency or internships!

A General Practitioner after paying his own rent and and liability insurance expenses, would be lucky to take home a 100k before taxes. Pretty much less than a cop who works a lot of OT such as that officer who made 45,900 in OT.

Many school teachers and nurses are lucky to make 35k starting out of college. I can assure you their jobs are much more stressful than a cop on OT walking around at the Rib Fest or Last Fling taking in the beautiful atmosphere waiting for trouble to happen that rarely ever occurs. Why should a cop start at 20k higher than a school teacher or nurse? What risk does a Naperville Cop have of being killed on the job? Almost Zilch! The odds of a school teacher being shot by a pupil are higher than a Naperville Cop being shot and killed on the streets of Naperville. A nurse has a higher chance of contaminating aids or hepatitis accidentally than a Naperville Cop being shot at a Charity Event or any event for that matter.

Government pay and taxation are out of control and the taxpayers are finally feeling it...I suspect something will be done in the next election to our elected officials if they don't take some action.

Action is Needed! Action is Necessary! Action must be taken to save those in office!

End pensions in all government agencies just as the private sector ended them! Let us all be on a level playing field with no one being subsidized!

According to the IMRF.org website, employees contribute 4.5% of pay and employers contribute somewhere between 7.48% and 16.96%, depending upon factors that aren't clear to me, yet. To correct my earlier posting, the IMRF claims to be fully funded, although they are using an assumed investment return of 7.5% to make that calculation. That that seems a little optimistic to me, but I'm hardly an expert. It also states benefits are capped at 80% of highest year's earnings. Finally, the publication suggests that there are variances between plan costs and benefits depending upon options selected by individual sponsoring organizations.

Whether or not Marshal has a police pension is of no consequence to the city manager’s job, as long as the best qualified candidate is hired. I don’t care if he, or anyone else, “double dips” as they have EARNED their pensions. This should be a non-issue and isn’t deserving of being on the cover of the Sun.

There are some people who don’t appreciate our police officers or the job they do. They just like to complain about how much an officer makes or say that they have stress-free jobs. That’s a farce (no, I am not a police officer).

The truth of the matter is that police work is stressful no matter what the crime rate is in our city. Police officers work in an uncertain environment, respond to numerous calls, are available 24-7, and put their lives in danger. You may think a police officer in Naperville just strolls the Riverwalk like any one of us but he (or she) is ready, willing, and available to run towards trouble when everyone else runs away.

Are some of their days stress-free? I’m sure some are. But just as you don’t cancel your car insurance because you haven’t had a recent accident (besides the legality of that), you keep highly-skilled and well-trained police officers on the city payroll even if the crime rate is low. To attract and keep these individuals, you will have to pay a competitive salary. That’s the reality of the situation.

I would urge people to read John Cass’ column in the Trib (sorry, Sun) last Sunday (at http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-kass_bd18may18,0,5609742.column) regarding public service. It’s not dead; you just have to open your eyes.

T.B.

Moderator Jim,

Great thread! It seems like you are being bashed from those who are benefitting and as you know there are quite of few of them in our City.

Why should private citizens contribute to the pensions of government employees? We are paying them good wages! That should be enough. A police officer starting out of college makes more than most other 4 year college graduates.

Would police officers and firemen be willing to contribute to private pensions of doctors and nurses who also provide a good service to humanity? I suspect not!

Pensions were eliminated by Corporate America because they were too costly and basically unaffordable. We were left to fetch for ourselves.

The playing field neeeds to be equalized. Government needs to step up to the plate and elimiate pensions or have the employees pay for them without a subsidy from the taxpayers. Is it not enough we are subsidizing downtown parking and police OT? Where does it all end? How much can the taxpayer afford in these bad ecomomic times? We are about ready to hand our rebate checks to the cult that runs City Hall on June 1. That is really the true colt in this town...not the Napergatians who don't separate us from anything!

Just like the State House of Representatives voted 109 to 1 to eliminate signage promoting the Governor's Name to the tune of 480k a year, pension should be eliminated! How ridiculous! Let us hope they smell the coffee again soon and eliminate pensions? They may not as I suspect they are recipients!

How can one fight the lawmakers when they benefit from the laws they write? That is a question for the Moderator...to ponder???

Moderator Jim,

Instead of letting us debate in cirlces could you be kind enough to make a quick call to your source and find out what PERCENTAGE police officers contribute of their pay to the pension fund.

I think this is an important question. In the private sector the employee contributes 7.65% and the employer matches it with an identical 7.65% for Social Security.

As we all know Social Security can not support anyone upon retirement....under a police pension you can almost afford a mini-mansion. If it is supplamanted you can afford a mansion in Naperville. Was that the purpose of RETIREMENT MONEY when our forefathers orginated the idea! I suspect the purpose was enough money for security in your older years...not to afford MANSIONS!

Since police are getting huge pensions after only 30 years instead of 44 years as is the case of a college graduate in the private sector from S.S., one has to wonder what the taxpayers are contributing to this police pension to make these 7,000 dollar payment per month possible. I recall the famous Drew Peterson retired before his 30 years with only the rank of a Sergeant and was getting nearly $6200 a month pension from Bolingbrook.

I hope the Sun can find out some time today, what PERCENTAGE of his pay, a police officer contributes to his retirement pension.

As usual, when a Sun reporter does a story, he only scrathces the surface and needs to learn to dig a little deeper and ask a few more questions!

Thanks!

Something that most folks don't realize is that police officers get paid well, don't pay into social (you know...the black hole) and get terrific pensions. Pretty good for many cops who have never even earned a bachelors degree. Yes they make more money than some doctors and like school teachers and politicians they coast along. After some time their jobs are not very hard (except for that occasional bad day). We all go there from time to time. Yes, had I to do it over I would try to become a ditch digger with a badge, and that is truly what most of them are. Having said that I want to add that Naperville cops are better than most, but they shouldn't be making the kind of money they do!

If the man is qualified then he deserves the job, if not then hire someone else. Lets not forgot Mayor Pradel gets a nice pension as well for his service with the police department. As far as Doctor's making less money. I have yet to see a doctor complaining as they drive their BMW's or Mercedes to work. Come on people lets talk about something with some substance.

I agree that the pension issue should not be connected to the hiring decision. Mr. Marshall has done nothing wrong -- the pension was a benefit of his employment. That said, I understand that in Illinois, public pensions are severely underfunded -- I cannot find the specifics for the IMRF -- but am still looking. However, if Mr. Marshall is 51 years old, he is likely to live at least 30 more years. Over that period of time he will collect $2.5 million in pension, before any inflation adjustments -- likely considerably more than the total wages earned during the 30 years he worked and far more than any amount he contributed to that fund. To me, that is the issue and it applies to educators as well. Taxpayers simply cannot afford to pay retirement benefits at 75% of of the highest year's earnings. The problem is growing and will only get worse if we don't develop the ability to say to no to demands that we cannot afford. Private industry has rapidly eliminated defined benefit pensions because they are unsustainable or unaffordable -- when will the public sector get the message?

There really are two questions here and it is a bit difficult to separate them:

One is the question fairness or even equity of double dipping. Police and fire get to double dip. Workers in other jobs do not, so is that fair? Some fire department employees collect pensions from more than one town and get to double dip, so is that fair? If we want double dipping to be allowed then shouldn't it be open to all? Since a lot of this has suggested to be out of the control of local officials then maybe the Naperville Sun should do some in-depth reporting on so all the citizens of Naperville can better understand what is actually happening with the public pension system we are reporting. For example, in the case in question it is reported that an 85K police pension has been earned after 30 years... how much does a police officer contribute... how much does the city contribute... does this amount adjust for inflation... what are dependent benefits... how does this compare to final salary... was final salary bumped to increase the pension payout... etc., etc. What also strikes me as a bit odd and uneven is that a police pension after 30 years is paying out $85K, yet the City Manager job which is at a significantly higher rate of pay only pays out about $30K after 10 years... while the difference doesn't seem right at face value it should also be questioned why there would even be a pension after only 10 years of service?

The second question really gets at the heart of who should be our next city manager, all pension issues aside. It is fair to understand what the expectations of the average citizen and taxpayer with regards to experience, education, and past accomplishments. Other factors might include internal vs external candidates, experience with smaller, equal sized, or larger communities, and/or experience with a city manager form of city government. Hopefully high on the list of personal attributes are to consider candidates who possess excellent people and money management skills because at that level that is what they most deal with... people and money. Other factors might be to consider candidates who have experience with mature communities as opposed to growth communities now that Naperville has passed its growth phase. The organization, structure, staffing, and budgeting levels of departments in a mature city are not the same as a growing city and we need candidates who will right size all of the department staffing and budgets going forward.

Maybe it would be better for the Naperville Sun to separate these two questions into two different threads for better and clearer discussion.

You said:
"No one is pumping money into my pension...it will be 0 when I retire at age 65."

That's your own fault. Babyboomers are not saving for retirement, they're waiting for social security to take care of them; thanks a lot for putting this burden on the backs of the youth.

You said:
"Only in Naperville, can a cop make more than a Doctor who goes to school for 8 years, serves 2 or 3 years internship and almost has to be the top 5% of his class to gain entrance to medical school."

Wow, really? Do you know how much a new doctor makes? I just did a google search. A new doc in internal medicine can expect $154k-$245k. A new doc in general surgery can expect $226k-$520k.

Research your ideas. That's all I'm saying.

I don't know Bob Marshall nor have I met him. I'm also not a police officer and I don't have any officers in my family. The issue of two pensions is simple. He qualified for a job on our police department and rose through the ranks, not an easy task due to the testing process for each rank. He retired from the police department and EARNED his pension after 30 years of service to Naperville's citizens.

At some point along the way he returned to college and EARNED his masters degree. He then went through a hiring process and was chosen as the assistant city manager.

If after completing the search for the new city manager, Bob Marshall is the top candidate and is chosen for that position, he will EARN the pension that is a benefit of the job.

Whoever is chosen for the position will EARN the pension associated with it. Naperville taxpayers still make the payout. My only stipulation is that the most qualified candidate receive the job.

Lastly, to address the second Anonymous poster, you should do ALL of your homework before making a post. I'll try to address your points quickly.

1)There is still pride in being a public servant. Money is secondary, but we have homes, cars, medical bills, and college educations to fund just like everyone else.
2)No matter who gets the job of city manager Bob Marshall will still receive his police pension and the city will still pay the city manager pension. So by your calculations we still pay out $259,000 per year and your portion will be $528. Don't you want the best qualified candidate in that seat?
3)I can't comment on Bob Marshall's pension amount because I don't know. However I am pretty sure that a captain on the police department is not eligible for overtime. He would be considered a staff position at that rank and staff does not accrue OT.
4)I know a couple of doctor's and they make a lot more than cops in Naperville in salary and pension.
5)The city covering the OT bill for local charities is a separate issue. If you oppose it, voice your opinion at the city council meetings. You can't condemn any city worker (there are police, fire, park district, and public works employees) for accepting OT when offered. There aren't 33 officers at the events. There are 18. Some of the Ribfest concerts attract more than 100,000 people. (Yes my numbers are correct. Contact the Ribfest organizers if you mant to confirm.) So during the day we have 145,000 people in town (give or take 10,000) we have approx. 15 officers on the street. I think 18 officers supervising a crowd of 100,000 (mostly adults) where alcohol is being served is probably not enough security.
6)Cops work under stressful circumstances and if they make a mistake someone can die and they can be sued in civil court. That starting pay of $55,000 doesn't seem like that much anymore does it!
7)I agree that cops receive a nice pension. There are other jobs where you receive a nice pension also. Most are teachers, firemen, FBI agents, railroad employees, public works, and other federal, state, and local jobs. These employees do the grunt work of our society. People wonder why cops are grumpy. It is because 90% of their interaction with the public is to enforce the law and people don't like it. A comfortable pension is the least they deserve after 30 years of service. If someone has the foresight to begin a career in an occupation where they will receive a nice pension don't be upset with them. How old are you? Maybe you should change careers.
8)Not all cops make 85K in pension. You have to have the time and rank. The vast majority of the force retire as beat cops and not with 30 years of service. The starting pay is probably about 55K. However if you look at nearby communities like Aurora, Joliet, Wheaton, Schaumburg, Rosemont, Arlington Hts, etc. you will see the same pay scale. That is just the going rate for this area.
9)Mayor Pradel does make much less in pension for two reasons. First he retired at a lower rank and more importantly he retired much earlier. Check ten years from now and you'll see a captain with 30 years of service gets a much larger pension than Bob Marshall. Mayor Pradel's snowplowing is voluntary. If he does it to supplement his pension or for extra spending money, he isn't locked into that job. It is his decision to get up in the middle of the night and plow.

I don't know Bob Marshall nor have I met him. I'm also not a police officer and I don't have any officers in my family. The issue of two pensions is simple. He qualified for a job on our police department and rose through the ranks, not an easy task due to the testing process for each rank. He retired from the police department and EARNED his pension after 30 years of service to Naperville's citizens.

At some point along the way he returned to college and EARNED his masters degree. He then went through a hiring process and was chosen as the assistant city manager.

If after completing the search for the new city manager, Bob Marshall is the top candidate and is chosen for that position, he will EARN the pension that is a benefit of the job.

Whoever is chosen for the position will EARN the pension associated with it. Naperville taxpayers still make the payout. My only stipulation is that the most qualified candidate receive the job.

Lastly, to address the second Anonymous poster, you should do ALL of your homework before making a post. I'll try to address your points quickly.

1)There is still pride in being a public servant. Money is secondary, but we have homes, cars, medical bills, and college educations to fund just like everyone else.
2)No matter who gets the job of city manager Bob Marshall will still receive his police pension and the city will still pay the city manager pension. So by your calculations we still pay out $259,000 per year and your portion will be $528. Don't you want the best qualified candidate in that seat?
3)I can't comment on Bob Marshall's pension amount because I don't know. However I am pretty sure that a captain on the police department is not eligible for overtime. He would be considered a staff position at that rank and staff does not accrue OT.
4)I know a couple of doctor's and they make a lot more than cops in Naperville in salary and pension.
5)The city covering the OT bill for local charities is a separate issue. If you oppose it, voice your opinion at the city council meetings. You can't condemn any city worker (there are police, fire, park district, and public works employees) for accepting OT when offered. There aren't 33 officers at the events. There are 18. Some of the Ribfest concerts attract more than 100,000 people. (Yes my numbers are correct. Contact the Ribfest organizers if you mant to confirm.) So during the day we have 145,000 people in town (give or take 10,000) we have approx. 15 officers on the street. I think 18 officers supervising a crowd of 100,000 (mostly adults) where alcohol is being served is probably not enough security.
6)Cops work under stressful circumstances and if they make a mistake someone can die and they can be sued in civil court. That starting pay of $55,000 doesn't seem like that much anymore does it!
7)I agree that cops receive a nice pension. There are other jobs where you receive a nice pension also. Most are teachers, firemen, FBI agents, railroad employees, public works, and other federal, state, and local jobs. These employees do the grunt work of our society. People wonder why cops are grumpy. It is because 90% of their interaction with the public is to enforce the law and people don't like it. A comfortable pension is the least they deserve after 30 years of service. If someone has the foresight to begin a career in an occupation where they will receive a nice pension don't be upset with them. How old are you? Maybe you should change careers.
8)Not all cops make 85K in pension. You have to have the time and rank. The vast majority of the force retire as beat cops and not with 30 years of service. The starting pay is probably about 55K. However if you look at nearby communities like Aurora, Joliet, Wheaton, Schaumburg, Rosemont, Arlington Hts, etc. you will see the same pay scale. That is just the going rate for this area.
9)Mayor Pradel does make much less in pension for two reasons. First he retired at a lower rank and more importantly he retired much earlier. Check ten years from now and you'll see a captain with 30 years of service gets a much larger pension than Bob Marshall. Mayor Pradel's snowplowing is voluntary. If he does it to supplement his pension or for extra spending money, he isn't locked into that job. It is his decision to get up in the middle of the night and plow.

Why is the Sun attacking this guy? Seriously, waaaaay too much reporting on this. If he is deemed to be the best guy for the job, then so be it.

I agree with the posters calling the pension issue irrelevant. Mr Marshal earned his pension. If he is qualified for the city manager job, he should get it and will earn any associated pension. What pension he has already earned or will earn has nothing to do do with whether or not he should get the city manager job.

I feel like the Sun is implying he has done something wrong. The Sun is becoming more a gossip type paper by the week and the blogging just fuels the fire.

I am just glad to hear that the city is doing a nationwide search for city manager. The city needs to look at many applicants. If Mr. Marshall interviews well then I wish him well. I personnally do not feel he has enough job experience for the size of our city.

Just a reminder - Mayor Pradel collects a pension from the city of Naperville also, he retired from the Police Department too.

Pension plans need to be changed for local, state and government employees to reflect what everyone else is getting social security and 401K. Many private companies have done away with pension plans. Yes I am tired of paying for this as a taxpayer.

this is a hot-button topic, first suggested by participants of this online community forum

His past pension situation is irrelevant. Whomever takes the manager job will be eligible for a pension as well. There is no additional cost to any taxpayer. This is a stupid story, suggested by right-wingers who resent all government and government services. Their motto is clearly "I got mine". Haven't they been give way more than their share of ink? (and bytes)?

The guy earned his pension. Why is this a problem?

Whether he's qualified to be city manager is a separate question. A city like Naperville is a huge organization and daily operations are multifaceted and complex. The pay to lead a equivalently sized private business would exceed what Marshall would get. Takes money to get talent!

I think Marshall i s doing a fabulous job. It's a sin to think that someone would think him getting too much should invalidate his efforts. I don't understand it.

At some point in the past, people in government worked for less wages than in the private sector. Government jobs were considered public service jobs. There was pride to be a public servant and money was secondary. Those days are apparently long gone!!!

Now if Bob Marshall is retained as a Manager he will be collecting $259,000 from the taxpayers of Naperville. I am contributing $528 dollars annually to the pension pumping money into Mr. Marshall's retirement. No one is pumping money into my pension...it will be 0 when I retire at age 65. Mr. Marshall is able to retire at age 51 with an $85,000 dollar pension mostly at my expense and my fellow taxpayer's expense. It seems ridiculous to me whether it is state or city law. His retirement pension is more than 95% of employees make while working full time in the good old USA till age 66 and above.

Since his pension is 75% of his final years pay, it seems like he was averaging 113,000 dollars in his final years without counting OT. Cops should be paid well. But basically here you have a cop with OT possibly making 150k a year.

Only in Naperville, can a cop make more than a Doctor who goes to school for 8 years, serves 2 or 3 years internship and almost has to be the top 5% of his class to gain entrance to medical school.

When or if Mr. Marshall worked the Charities we were paying him approximately $81.73 cents in OT while he walked up and down Jackson Ave basically doing nothing since there is rarely ever any trouble at the festivals...plus with 33 cops working besides him, his odds for being called to any incident on any shift are little to nothing. Surgeons work very hard, under extremely stressful circumstances, and if they make a mistake, a patient under their care can die. They have extremely high liability insurance costs that they pay for themselves.

We paid for Mr. Marshall's health insurance costs and most of his other benefits. Most likely, also the majority of his pension costs.

I think the City of Naperville and the State of Illinois need to re-examine these pension funds. How is it that the 15.3% civilians and private employers jointly pay into Social Security may only get us a $1000 or $2000 per month when we retire. I believe, if police officers contribute to their own pension, they pay less than 15.3%, yet they apparently receive over 7k per month. The reason that is so, is because the taxpayers are paying for most of this 7k. Check you tax bills and you will see how large this pension number is. It is huge. Now we know why the pension number has to be so high on our real estate tax bills.

Retired cops are making 85k plus in pension while hard working rookie cops are making 55k while working full time. Only in Naperville can things be so crazy.

I just wanted to thank Moderator Jim for posting this topic for discussion. There are many questions yet to be answered. Let us hope many of these questions will be answered by other bloggers.

Hopefully, after a few hundred posts, we will understand this pension and double dipping much better. It just seems like something is wrong....if not we need clarification.

You would think that Mr. Marshall's pension would be at least frozen while he is gainfully employed by the City of Naperville. But paying him twice while building yet another pension for him just seems a little outrageous.

Mayor Pradel must feel like chopped liver only making 20 to 30k a year and working just as hard as Mr. Marshall if not harder. Mayor Pradel was plowing snow in the cold of the winter while Mr. Marshall was staying warm by his fireplace. And yet the guy who stayed by his fireplace made 10 times what the guy who busted his rear end in the freezing cold made.

Mayor Pradel only makes 25 bucks an hour snow plowing which is a real tiring job. It is unplanned. He has to get up in the middle of the night unexpectedly sometimes. Other times he can not even go to sleep all night. Mr. Marshall use to be able to walk up and down Jackson with no stress and plenty of notification and he made $81.73 an hour, assuming he worked, like almost all NPD officers do at these charity events. More than 3 times what the Mayor made and yet the Mayor worked 10 times as hard as Mr. Marshall in the cold of the winter and in the middle of the night with no sleep. How is all this fair?

Let us be fair. If we are going to pay Mr. Marshall $81.73 for walking up and down Jackson during charities, let us pay Mayor Pradel $817.30 per hour for working 10 times as hard in very difficult freezing conditions. We all know he had an accident snowplowing which indicates he was risking his life to clean our cul de sacs. Snow plowing is no easy job. It is a very risky job. Most transmissions blow up during snow plowing. Let us hope Mayor Pradel did not have to use his own truck!

I think it is time for the City Council to meet and seriously evaluate every job in this city and what it pays. It is time for them to evaluate every expense and expenditure. It is time to stop all waste in all departments!

Above all it is time to hire the most experienced outsider in the nation for the Manager's position, to run and fix our beautiful City of Naperville. Mr. Marshall and Mr. Burchard have proved to be far from the best . Just put your real estate tax bills under the microscope and you will see all the answers for yourselves. The numbers on your tax bill are their truthful evaluations! I say it is time for our city to take a change of course from its old entrenched ways methods that are no long working in modern Naperville!

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PS. While the City of Naperville has not shown any hope so far, the State of Illinois House of Representatives recently voted 109-1 to stop the Governor of Illinois from putting any more signs with his name on State Highways and Tollways. Each sign was costing $15,000 and he was putting up an average of 32 per year for an annual cost of $480,000 to taxpayers. Let us hope our City Council can do something similar soon and stand up to our Police Dept. and City Administrators.

If the State can stop business as usual that has been going on for decades, the City of Naperville can step up to the plate and follow suit. Business as usual at some point must stop! Sometimes there are better ways!

He earned his police pension. If he gets hired as City Manager he will earn that pension. No double dipping here. It is a non-issue. Anyone who argues that it is should look at their careers and decide how fair it would be if they had some of their retirement money taken away.

Why is this again in a blog? It is starting to appear that the Sun really has nothing else to report about and continues to re-run stories with a slight tweaking here or there. I have noticed a significant decline in postings as many of these blogs are just repeats of another blog which all ties back to the cops or city hall. Isn't there anything else going on in a town of over 150,000 people.

As far as this blog, if he is qualified then he deserves the job. He should have to go through the hiring process like anyone else.