Waubonsie has been on grade watch for a long time now... the staff isn't really good or well educated either (Not talking about Teachers, more like counselors, secretary, deans. Waubonsie is the worst school expirience I have had out of the many schools I have attended.

Anonymous,

From the paper you cite;

Two overarching principles underlie the development of these reporting
standards: the sufficiency of the warrants and the transparency
of the report. First, reports of empirical research should
be warranted; that is, adequate evidence should be provided to
justify the results and conclusions. Second, reports of empirical
research should be transparent; that is, reporting should make explicit
the logic of inquiry and activities that led from the development
of the initial interest, topic, problem, or research
question; through the definition, collection, and analysis of data
or empirical evidence; to the articulated outcomes of the study.

From my reading, the paper really isn’t talking about the kind of information we are talking about here, as most of what I refer to are simply compilations of data. However I think The Newsweek and USN&WR studies can be analyzed by the principles outlined above.

I agree with you that Jay Matthews and Newsweek are on some shaky ground. Many have argued that in essence, Matthews fails in the first test (adequate evidence). However the I think you can apply the above to the USN&WR study and come away more than content.

As for the rest, as I’ve said before, the vast majority are simple ranking of results of a test taken by all. While we can, and should, ask what are the variables the led to those test results, the fact remains that it is simply information sorted by results. Pretty straightforward, and indicative of a school or school districts performance as it relates to others on that test.

It may not be prefect but it’s all we’ve got. Sincerely, if you have seen a better, more valid study, ranking individual school performance, I’d like to see it.

Thom,

Rest assured these are not my personal criteria and I would never want to mislead or confuse anyone by being so bold as to claim such ownership as my own. In fact the criteria which I have referred are actually embraced by researchers who take their work seriously; for example some of whom publish in the American Educational Research Association Journal. To get a better handle on the criteria a paper must meet to be considered for publication in this journal take a look at http://www.sagepub.com/upm-data/13126_Standards_from_AERA.pdf

While this is but one example, there are many other professional journals. These are voluntary standards that researchers follow and they do vary some from journal to journal though there do exist shared common threads.

The point of this is that there is a lot of garbage science being sold to the American public these days. A lot of garbage science is deliberately interwoven within the realm of legitimate scientific study in an attempt to make it appear appear something that it is not. Not making this any easier is the reality that way too many Americans rely upon news media as their personal source of truth and facts.

In the example of the Newsweek story, the author Jay Matthews stated the following 10 years ago when these lists were first introduced:

"Nearly every professional educator will tell you that ranking schools is counterproductive, unscientific, hurtful and wrong. Every likely criteria you might use in such an evaluation is going to be narrow and distorted. A school that stumbles one year may be fine the next. I accept all those arguments. Yet as a reporter and as a parent, I think that in some circumstances a ranking system, no matter how limited, can be useful."

To really get a better flavor for the real truth behind this story which escapes the marketing and the banner headline go to http://www.newsweek.com/id/137415/page/1 and read all 5 pages of the FAQ related to this news story. Once you read the FAQ and understand the history it is easier to appreciate the fallacy of a headline proclaiming the best high schools based upon a single criteria being evaluated and which has no consistency across all states. This is further complicated enormously by the authors own personal agenda to use the list to force school administrators to change their AP policies.

What was even more disturbing was Matthews response to the question: "How can you call these the best or top schools if you are only using one narrow measure? High school is more than just AP or IB tests." To which he resonded:

"As for the words "top" and "best," they are always based on criteria chosen by the list maker. My list of best film directors may depend on Academy Award nominations. Yours may be based on ticket sales. I have been very clear about what I am measuring in these schools. You may not like my criteria, but I have not found anyone who understands how high schools work and does not think AP, IB or Cambridge test participation is important. I often ask people what quantitative measure of high schools they think is more important than this one. Such discussions can be interesting and productive.

I have been having such a debate with Andy Rotherham, co-director of the Education Sector think tank. He argues that some of the schools on the NEWSWEEK list have low average test scores and high dropout rates, and do not below belong on any best high-schools list. My response is that these are all schools with lots of low income students and great teachers who have found ways to get them involved in college level courses. So far, we have no proven way for educators in low income schools to improve significantly their average tests scores or graduation rates. Until we do, I don't see any point in making them play a game that, no matter how energetic or smart they are, they can't win."

Wow, that was a mouthful and a high school with a high dropout rated can be labeled as one of the best high schools in our country. Imagine how confused parents in that school district must be.

As I've said all along people believe the headlines and look for the quick gratification that their local high school is on the list and never dabble in the fine print to really understand what has been evaluated, how it was evaluated, or why it was evaluated. An even more practical and basic question would be to ask how many of us would use this evaluation criteria ourselves if we could live anywhere we wanted and send our kids to any school they choose... would we actually use his methodology to pick a school for our own children? God help those who would.

Anonymous,

A request of you if I may.

Since you keep referring to valid scholarly research, and re-stating your contention that what even USN&WR has done does not fit your criterion, and all the other information isn't worthy either, will you please do the readers here a service and give us an example of a valid study pro or con that studies a specific or a given number of schools/school districts that illustrates a valid study in your opinion.

You seem such an expert on what doesn't qualify, you surely must be able to help us see the light by showing us a real scientific study .

Thom,

I'm really sorry that you know so little about what constitutes valid scholarly research. First off, simple possession of data is immaterial, but then if you actually knew what does constitute scholarly research you would already know this and understand why. Using your mountain of data of someone else's secondhand or thirdhand data may be fun for you, though that is not how scholars handle their data. In fact a fundamental part of scholarly research is to design your study and collect your own data not use someone else's data. Use of previously collected data injects the first variable that becomes hard to account and control.

Second, I do not need to disprove anything. The fact that these studies have neither been published in a scholarly journal nor subjected to a peer review process exposes that they do not meet the criteria to be considered anything more than new stories.

The challenge was made to you before and I repeat it here again. Produce just one report or study that has been published in a scholarly journal that supports any of the malarky you have been spouting about the ranking and performance of schools. If you are not prepared to produce even one report you have zero credibility and at best are guilty of spreading unsubstantiated rumors about school performance.

Anonymous

My friend, I have a ton of data that you can only say "it's not valid" as a defense against.

Fine, you don't accept the validity of all this data. If you are to be taken seriously, it is incumbent of you to, study by study, disprove them. You have not done this.

Otherwise, I have a mountain of data, and you have your opinion.

Thom,

You are headed down the same murky path as before. Read down to the bottom of the lists on any of the links you provided and what do we find in the small print?...

"Source: Chicago Sun-Times' analysis of 2007 ISBE school report card data."

"See "How we ranked the schools" for further details."

The link to "How we ranked the schools" for further details." does not work so it is any ones guess as to what methodology was used in the Sun Times analysis. Until I know more about the analysis methodology I will be glad to accept these as yet another news media story.

Obviously another source of pride and joy for you as you have your cheerleader costume on again and your thumbs poised under your suspenders. Keep dragging all these news media stories out from where ever you can find them for all I care. The volume of stories doesn't change the fact that they are news media stories and not scientific studies.

Jay Leno has his Top 10 list's too. Just more proof that most of this is fun, exciting, even titillating at times, and sure is good entertainment. Accept it as that and stop trying to read anything more substantial into these stories.

Sorry you missed where the fundamental flaws were pointed out to you many times previously on this thread. I suppose you weren't listening during logic class either when they clarified the differences between fact and opinion. Anyway, it's on your nickel to scroll back thru this thread and figure out what else you missed. Might want to work on those listening skills too while you are at it.

Oh, and it is you that I challenged to come up with a scientifically valid study by the way. So yeah, that is just one of the subtle ways you have tried to spin this discussion. If you haven't figured it out by know I'm up to your game and will catch you every time you try to shuck and jive.

Anonymous,

Just for fun here is another group of rankings, this time done by the Sun Times, and gee, D203 schools rank really well. The Sun Times created this ranking from ISBE report card data.

Must be faulty criteria right?

Statewide High School

http://media1.suntimes.com/multimedia/top50hs.pdf_20071030_16_37_40_56.imageContent

Statewide Middle schools

http://media1.suntimes.com/multimedia/top50middle.pdf_20071030_16_38_30_57.imageContent

Statewide Elementary

http://media1.suntimes.com/multimedia/top50elementary.pdf_20071030_16_36_53_55.imageContent

All of this can be found on that crazy left wing liberal Adam Andrzejewski’s web site For the Good of Illinois here;

http://www.forthegoodofillinois.org/Default.aspx

Oh. forgot, he’s not some crazy liberal is he?

This confuses me, your words;

…I have watched Thom continue to play a shuck and jive game and attempt to twist and distort what has been clearly illustrated as fundamental flaws with the new media story methodologies..

You have accused me of being dense before so here’s a free shot to do it again. Will you please indicate where in this thread you have “clearly illustrated” these fundamental flaws,? All the rest of us missed it.

Lastly, any luck coming up with , (in your mind), a scientifically valid study?

If it is pointless to argue with me then why are you here?

Smug could be defined as anyone who is comfortable resting their laurels on superficial news articles like you and Thom are doing.

Rejecting superficial news articles isn't being smug, not even close and is actually to polar opposite.

I have been totally transparent with my position on this thread so it is understandable that you can see right through me. Exactly as I would want it to be. Instead of being transparent in return I have watched Thom continue to play a shuck and jive game and attempt to twist and distort what has been clearly illustrated as fundamental flaws with the new media story methodologies.

Clearly neither you not Thom are conversant with the methodologies of scholarly research and until you and he better understand at least the fundamentals I fully expect that you will continue to place blind trust in articles such as this. Clearly you and Thom have the conscious choice to choose what you agree to accept and reject. At this point you have had more than ample opportunity to evaluate and consider all of failures and weaknesses of these stories and yet you both still blindly defend them with the same vengeance as if Moses carried them down from the mountain.

Well congratulations to both of you It it clear you both think you have all the answers and everyone else but you is stupid.

Anonymous,

As Thom pointed out, you completely missed the boat on the study to which I referred. Maybe YOU need to go back and re-read this thread.

I was going to give a more detailed response to your post, but I made that mistake in my last post, knowing even as I typed, that it was pointless to argue with you. I only jumped into this discussion when I did because I wanted to let Thom know that, your smug attitude notwithstanding, there is at least one other person still following this thread who can see through you.

-JQP

Thom,

First off, this thread is all about the Newsweek study. Maybe you would like to keep steering it away from the Newsweek study but that does not change that fact.

Maybe you would like to keep steering the discussion and viewers to your web site which you relentlessly promote but that does not change the fact that their is nothing new or unique to discuss on your own website other than more of your own opinions and personal analysis. There is nothing new on this link that has not already been discussed earlier on this thread. There is nothing posted on this link that is even remotely close to a legitimate scientific study. How many times do you have to be told that none of these news media articles meet the standard for scholarly research. Lacking that they are nothing more than feel-good entertainment stories that need to be taken lightly, not as fact, not as gospel.

My objections to these non-scientific studies have been clearly stated on several occasions in earlier posts on this thread. If you are having trouble remembering the specifics of these objections I would suggest you scroll back and refresh your lacking memory. Since we are not covering any new ground on this point I do not feel obligated to, yet again, repeat my earlier objections.

I'm truly sorry you wasted all the time you did to build a website that offers absolutely nothing concrete to better understand the academic performance of our local public schools. At this point it has become clear that you neither understand the concept nor requirements for scholarly research. It has also become crystal clear that you do not understand the difference between a fact and an opinion.

My friend, if you want to know who is off in la-la land take a good look in your mirror.

Anonymous

You are officially in la-la land with you last post my friend.

you make this claim

I have repeatedly asked for Thom to produce even one legitimate study and he has been unable to provide, quote, or reference anything other than the previously discussed news media stories.

How many time do I have to post this link?

http://www.qe203.org/20080205referendum/costperformance_mediasurvey.shtml

How many times do I have to ask to to on a case by case basis state your objection of these many studies and reports and give us specific reasons why each one is not valid in your view.

Lastly JQP never mentioned the Newsweek study. So your response to his post reacting to it as though it exists as a statement regarding the Newsweek study only, is somewhat nonsensical.

Manipulated how? This discussion was started about the Newsweek story. Go back and read the story, follow the links to the providers of data, and then read how they included, excluded, and in some cases outright changed the raw data of their choosing at their own discretion. If that isn't manipulation I sure don't know what is. Sure it is their list so they can do what they darn well please as far as making decision about who is on the list and where anyone resides on the list. Likewise we can make our own choices as to whether or not we agree with the scientific basis for the decisions Newsweek made. You and Thom seem to think what Newsweek did is OK, I do not. We disagree.

Newsweek put together a ranked list and you maintain that simple ranking is statistically valid and legitimate. Hmmm. On the original list WV was in 1079th place. It currently resides in 1134th place. I'm sure you can logically explain how WV would move from 1079th to 1134th place on a statistically valid list.

What you and Thom both seem to forget, thought I haven't, is that it was I who questioned the legitimacy of the Newsweek and other news media reports. Nice try at spinning it around and asking me to provide verifiable facts and documentation, though that dodge isn't going to work here. I haven't claimed to provide any reference to studies so I don't need to back anything up. I have repeatedly asked for Thom to produce even one legitimate study and he has been unable to provide, quote, or reference anything other than the previously discussed news media stories. If I had provided a source or even needed to provide a source to back up my side of the discussion you can be assured that I would only provide a source that is legitimate, a source in which my fingers themselves have not meddled, and would be a source in which you or anyone else could independently review and verify on your own. Those are just my personal standards of honesty and integrity. Others may choose to follow lower standards though I have found that mine have served me well and have left my personal and professional integrity without question for a very long time.

When you jump into a discussion late in the act it might be courteous to take the time to go back and read the thread from the top down so that you know what you are talking about and don't waste effort rehashing what already has been discussed ad nauseum.

“The quoted sources are not studies. The sources are news stories. There is an enormous gap between a legitimate study and a news story or even pushing unsubstantiated and misleading data around like Thom is great at doing. Just because Thom makes a statement does not make it a fact. Actually Thom provides more opinion than he does fact.”

A ranking of all Illinois public high schools by PSAE scores, for example, may not constitute an academic study, but it’s certainly statistically legitimate, and does tell at least part of the story. And, unlike you, at least Thom provides the data and the sources on which his opinions are based.

“Statistics, well you don't even want to go there. Again there are scientifically valid statistical methods.”

There are “scientifically valid statistical methods” to quantify subjective qualities like what constitutes a good education? For example?

“The numbers and percentages that have been discussed so far are just manipulated raw data and is not scientifically valid.”

Manipulated how? Would you have preferred, for example, that the PSAE scores of all Illinois public high schools NOT be ordered from highest to lowest? What else was manipulated? It’s all well and good to say that Thom’s statistics and studies are fatally flawed, but until you explain WHY, your argument is akin to pointing fingers and name-calling.

“If you or Thom want to jump to any conclusion by using such flawed data, be my guest.”
It’s certainly better than jumping to conclusions based on no data at all----at least, none that you’ve bothered to disclose.

“Furthermore I did not challenge Thom to come up with evidence to support my opinion. In fact what I did was encourage him to do some proper research and educate himself better on the true facts surrounding private and parochial schools since he has a clear dislike and open bias to non-public school education facilities. I don't mind that he dislikes these other schools. I would just prefer that he argues with valid points and facts.”

Well, then, why don’t you set an example and provide some of these facts, along with links to the scientifically valid statistical studies that produced them? Until you do that, your argument amounts to saying, “Your opinion is based on flawed information. Mine is not, and YOU should study up to learn why it is not. QED.”

As for Thom’s “bias” against private schools, I can’t speak for him. But if you want to argue that they do a better job than public schools and for less money, you’d better make sure you’re comparing apples to oranges. Private schools can employ all manner of criteria to pick and choose which kids they will let in their doors, and they don’t have to accomodate, for all example, the special needs kids that you said were flocking to District 204.

“Have I clarified what you are missing here or do I need to go on?”

No, you have not. But you needn't bother going on unless you are prepared to back up your opinions with verifiable facts and documentation.

John Q Public,

The quoted sources are not studies. The sources are news stories. There is an enormous gap between a legitimate study and a news story or even pushing unsubstantiated and misleading data around like Thom is great at doing. Just because Thom makes a statement does not make it a fact. Actually Thom provides more opinion than he does fact.

Statistics, well you don't even want to go there. Again there are scientifically valid statistical methods. The numbers and percentages that have been discussed so far are just manipulated raw data and is not scientifically valid. If you or Thom want to jump to any conclusion by using such flawed data, be my guest.

Furthermore I did not challenge Thom to come up with evidence to support my opinion. In fact what I did was encourage him to do some proper research and educate himself better on the true facts surrounding private and parochial schools since he has a clear dislike and open bias to non-public school education facilities. I don't mind that he dislikes these other schools. I would just prefer that he argues with valid points and facts.

Have I clarified what you are missing here or do I need to go on?

Anonymous,

I note that Money magazine shows these statistics regarding public/private schooling:

Naperville
% students attending public schools within city limits 93.2%
% attending private 6.8%

Average for the ten best places
% students attending public schools within city limits 89.9%
% attending private 11.0%

I do not know where they found these statistics. However Dan Denys repeatedly made the claim that the private school number is 15% and he never gave a source either. Regardless, I will wager that Money magazine's a lot closer to the actual number than Mr. Denys.

As for the rest, as I said previously, Peace. I've shown my evidence, all you have done is criticize it, and not shown any of your own evidence to counter it. I'll let the "jury" decide who is more credible.

Anonymous,

Thom presents numerous studies that provide facts and statistics to support his asssertions, and you dismiss them all as feel-good stories that prove nothing. Then you make a whole bunch of unsubstantiated claims about the costs of private schools and challenge Thom to come up with the evidence to support YOUR claims?????

And you accuse HIM of being dense. I'm sorry, but what am I missing here?

-JQP

Ken,

Sorry three strikes and you are out. It has been I not you calling for examples of just one legitimate study not you. After repeated requests you have failed to produce even one much less a preponderance of evidence to support the news media articles you rely upon. At least you finally woke up and realized that I was discrediting the media stories as being less than a legitimate study and not discrediting 203. Welcome to the light.

As far as private and parochial education cost you should actually do some research and educate yourself on what the true total cost is and instead of making vague assertions about church funding which isn't always true and even when it does occur has a clearly defined value far less than your assumptions. No doubt that Avery Cooley is expensive, possibly even the most expensive in the entire metro area. The fact remains that on average the private and parochial schools are able to stretch their tuition dollars far better than the public schools despite the scales of economies that the public system have in their favor. Again, another factor that would be great to see some truthful, total side-by-side comparisons on per student cost of education. While you are doing your own discrediting of private and parochial schools take some time to research how many of these schools now exist in just Naperville. There are way more than most people realize. Then take some time to calculate how many students all of these schools serve and then take a hard look at how many more public schools would be needed if they did not exist and what you and I would be paying in school taxes to build all of the additional schools that would be needed. While you are calculating costs try doing some research on what private and parochial schools pay for land and construction costs and then provide a reasonable explanation on why the cost of public school construction is so much more expensive.

There are not too many professional educators and administrators who share your enthusiasm to be compared to the performance of private and parochial schools. Glad to see you are on board with this concept though as it would be really interesting to see what we would learn from such a study. Keep selling the concept to anyone who will listen though.

Anonymous,

A couple of things.

1st. I too would welcome private and parochial schools be required to take the same standardized tests public schools take. And I think most public school administrators and teachers feel the same way , at least they do in Naperville. Costs lower in private schools? No way. Take a look at Avery Cooley in Downers. Tuition is $16,000.00 a year. Parochial schools are cheaper, but they are supported by the church and its teaching staff in reduced wages. . Not a fair comparison.

But since you spend so much time maligning the data, let’s look once more at all the various studies and rankings.

First the easy ones, simple rankings of data.

The Chicago Tribune sorted all 600 some Illinois HS’s by their PASE test results.

The Daily Herald in Chapter 10 took the total cost to educate a child for the first 11 years of school and then compared it to the ACT college readiness score. Simple thesis. How much did it cost, what was the result?

The analysis I did using the Illinois state board of Education report cards. I compared costs vs. various academic scores.

Chicago Magazine. Yet another simple ranking. This time dollars spent vs. ACT score.

These two have more complex criterion

USN&WR’s study probably has the most sophisticated and comprehensive ranking criteria of any education study. Prepared by a outside education consulting group.

Newsweek. The oldest, and perhaps, the most controversial study, as it primarily uses the criteria of AP tests taken to compute their ranking.

So what’s fascinating is through all of these different rankings and studies, one thing is self evident. D203 scores remarkably well in each and every one of them!

So call me dense and shallow, but the fact remains while you continue in your futile attempt to discredit the multitude of information available, the simple fact is that by every accounting, D203 students achieve remarkable results. And yes you are correct, the overwhelming majority of we “dense and shallow” residents know it.

It is notable that after repeated requests by me, you have yet to offer any example of just what you would consider a more legitimate scientific study. Absent your ability to point to such a study and it’s criteria, your argument is fatally flawed.

Glad to see you love it.

Since you are so dense, let me clarify. My message is neither pro nor con D203. In fact I am quite neutral about D203. I do not have a SD 203 stinks message. Thank you for that conclusion based upon your own misguided assumptions about what I may be thinking and probably because I am reluctant to instantly put on a SD203 cheer leader costume like you.

I recognize SD203 has earned some "awards". These days the vast majority of these "awards" are feel-good and dime-a-dozen with more subjectivity than either you or I would care to discuss. I do not, have not, and will not place any value in what are meaningless "awards" or news media article.

Case in point. Find me one example of a community that claims it's school district is crap. Find me one example of a community that claims it's school district is just average. The truth is every school district brags about whatever sill accolades it receives. The citizens in every school district want to believe their tax dollars are providing the very best education possible and that their students are actually getting a high quality education. The problem is that not every school district can be excellent or actually is excellent. The problem is compounded by school boards and administrators who deliberately resist methodologies that will allow researchers to objectively measure and study our schools. Sure people do have a desire to know how their local school stack up; that is human nature. To fill the void the news media and others have learned that they can make a lot of money selling a variety of lists. Most people understand and accept these lists for what they are.

Further case in point. If we truly want to know the true performance of the entire education system then there should be no exclusions. All private and parochial schools should be studied. All public schools including academies, charter, and magnet schools should be studied. The goal should be to improve the quality of education for all children in America. To do that we all need to reasonably understand the entire education equation. Knowing the true best of the best, the gold standard, is useful to define and raise the bar for all schools. It is really a shame that you have such a negative bias against private and parochial schools. Personally I don't know what we would learn if these schools were included in such studies but I am at least open minded enough to be willing to consider that there may be some possibility that there may be something going on within these schools that could help to improve the quality of education in public schools and vice versa.

What I have heard some friends who work as teachers state is that they are deathly afraid of having their schools compared to private and parochial schools because they believe the performance will outstrip them by far. I have no idea if these rumors and fears have any basis or not but I can certainly understand the reluctance to compare the different education systems... imagine how the taxpayers might feel if they were to learn that not only to do private and parochial schools provide a higher quality education, but that they also deliver the education at 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of public schools? Yes, there are real strong reasons why school boards and administrators do not want to compare apples with apples. So instead we are all led to believe that it is an enormous bowl of mixed fruit out there that is impossible to compare. Interesting that something even more complex than education has figured out ways to accomplish this... take health care for example.

My message is about the fallacy of placing too much credence in articles like those that have been quoted. What is a shame is that after a discussion that has now run over 100 posts I am compelled to spell out for you what my point is because you simply have been unable to comprehend this on your own. Comprehension obviously isn't your strong suit since you also are willing to blindly accept literally anything written about SD203 that gives you something to gush and coo about.

Well at least you can take some comfort in knowing when it comes to shallow people you you have lots of company in this community.

Anonymous,

Gotta love your style, black is white, up is down, and you will not give the slightest credence to even a mere ranking of test scores because it really messes up your D203 stinks message. Fine, we all understand, but the insulting demeanor you use to attempt to counter simple facts, is at best pretty humorous in a twisted sort of way, and at worst, well....., let's not go there.

I also think if you are going to attack someone as you have me here repeatedly, you ought to have the guts to post your real name, but that's just me.

Ted, Anonymous has a point about this being applicable to the D204 discussion. Should we duplicate post the New Trier information over there? Might make some folks feel a little better knowing their schools price tag is over 50% less than what the renovation of New Trier might cost! Still can't believe the numbers.

Ted,

And how exactly is this related to the topic at hand? Maybe you would like to move this over to the 204 discussion on their new school and what it is costing? Or possibly you could add a PM function if you've no other way to contact Thom as most other respectable forums do?

Thom,

You can keep at it all day, all night, all week, all year for that matter. Nothing has changed. News media articles are feel good stories. Trying to insinuate that they are anything more than entertainment is an insult to scholarly research. This isn't an indictment against what is published in the news media, rather an expectation that what is published be properly considered with limitations and in context. So far you have been unable to bring even one scholarly report to the table that relates to the performance of SD 203. Yep, not even just one. Not one factual report. But you have boatloads of emotional reports, feel good reports, entertaining reports.

These news stories obviously make you feel good. Good golly every time another one is published the buttons immediately start popping right off your shirt and your thumbs just naturally glide in under your suspenders. It is always refreshing to see when smug arrogance overtakes conscious intelligence in a person.

You and Gomer Pyle should get together, you have a lot in common.

Yeah, I’ve been following it a bit. Looks like they want to do essentially what we’re doing with Central.

http://www.newtrier.k12.il.us/information/pub/boardreport.pdf

They want to rebuild the 1930’s and 1950’s parts of the building, or tear it all down. The dollars however are staggering. $255 million to $326 million to renovate, or $358 million to $396 million for a new school. Huge, huge numbers.

But my favorite fact is how they present the increase in property taxes.

“These costs equate to an increase between $384 to $537 per every $10,000 in taxes for the option without a field house and pool, or between $448 to $619 per every $10,000 for a plan with a field house and a pool.”

You know you have some serious property taxes going when they frame the argument in how much additional per $10,000.00 in taxes you are paying now. But then they are already spending something like 70% more than D203 does per student.

I read it all and laugh thinking how our friend Dan D. would react if he lived in a community that was talking about a $326 million renovation to its high school. He was griping that our lousy $89 million renovation of Central was a Taj Mahal. Can you imagine if our school board had suggested spending four times that amount? He’d have a coronary. Regardless, the numbers are truly staggering and far outside the norm for this kind of work in the Chicago area. I want to keep watching to see the renderings when they finally appear. Better be really special for all that dough.

Hey, Thom,

Did you happen to catch this recent news item, about the cost to rebuild New Trier? Holy Cow!

>http://www.suntimes.com/news/education/1049230,CST-NWS-newtrier10.article>

After more than four months of study, recommendations for renovating New Trier High School's Winnetka campus are ranging from $256 million to $400 million -- perhaps the most expensive project for a secondary school in the Chicago area.

Anonymous,

Talk about an ironic statement. No one knows me, or my credentials? I, who post my name, and provide a link to the web site of the organization I belong to, being chastised by an anonymous poster? Wow, gotta love that.

As for the rest, yeah I know, it really hard having to try to de-legitimize the many studies and rankings that shows just how good a school district D203 is. I appreciate that it's an impossible task, and you have done the best you can I guess, but attacking me and my supposed small mindedness isn't going to get the job done with any fair minded reader, and that's who I’m talking to here.

Just to drive you crazier, I leave you with yet another ranking, this one done by The Chicago Tribune, showing yet again, just how well the students in D203 achieve.

The Tribune ranked Illinois’ 646 high schools based on their PSAE score. Naperville North came in 13th overall (8th if you remove the admissions based limited enrollment schools) and Naperville Central came in 15th (10th if admissions based limited enrollment schools are removed) This is a straight ranking by score, nothing else. And the result shows what all the other studies show, D203 does a really excellent job.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/content/education/chi-reportcard-psae,0,6271307.htmlpage

Why should anyone believe that your analysis of a news media story has any merit?

No one knows you. No one knows your credentials, if you even have any. Better yet no one knows what credentials you may or may not possess to even perform a rudimentary analysis anything related to education or our schools.

Bottom line with all of this nonsense from you is that we are mostly dealing with numbers, data, stats. You have your opinion. Whoop-die do. People who are a whole lot smarter and more educated than you can look at the same data and come to far different conclusions every day. Our court system is loaded with thousands of "experts" who agree to disagree on every topic under the sun.

Throwing your own analysis on top of results and conclusions from non-scientific based and seriously flawed news media articles and then attempting to pass this whole load of BS off as something any higher than pure nonsense is something only you would find any merit in obviously.

It would be curious to know why you hate and fear those who have different philosophies and opinions about what is good and bad about the education system, both public and private. One thing I do know is that small minded people like you will never help any education system to improve. You are an anchor for the status quo of mediocracy which is a shame. If you used your talent to the positive good of the community you could probably effect some lasting, long term improvements. Sadly you choose to squander these opportunities in the persisstent blindness that everything is perfect. Hopefully one of these days you will open your eyes and find something worth making your mark on and leave a legacy that will make your family proud.

Anonymous,

I don’t know you? Well come on and introduce yourself. I always thought that hiding behind a veil by posting as anonymous was pretty un-neighborly.

As for the rest, well, Peace. Your words only further validate the perspective I outlined above. I would be interested in knowing who you think I work for.

For anyone who has found themselves here and wonders what all the excitement is about, our anonymous friend here doesn’t like the fact that I provide this link which leads to an analysis I did of a number of studies by such "marginal" organizations USN&WR, the Daily Herald, The Illinois State Board of Education and The Chicago magazine. There are links to all the original studies.

http://www.qe203.org/20080205referendum/costperformance_mediasurvey.shtml

What all these studies show, using different criterion and formats is the excellent educational experience that 203 provides, and at a bargain price compared to other local districts. Don’t take my word, (or our anonymous friend here either "LIES, LIES ALL OF IT I TELL YOU, LIES!!!!!!) I'm being satirical here; click and read for yourself.

If you oppose public education, and would really prefer vouchers, or hate paying those damn teachers ,well, let’s say the results are a real problem. The pushback by these folks has been pretty amusing, but none more so than our anonymous friend here, who throws a mean invective, but fails to ever prove his point.

Thom Higgins

You do not know me personally nor professionally. You have no clue what my thoughts or ideologies are or may be. In the past you have posted some really stupid opinions. Congratulations, your latest post reaches a new low, even for you.

You have no basis of fact nor a single shred of evidence to support any of the wild accusations and allegations that you have made in spouting your so called "perspective".

Fact is your "perspective" is as wrong as your contention that there is anything more substantial than "feel good" news in these so-called studies you keep whining about. Fact is you never brought anything to the public's attention on this issue or anything else for that matter. We can thank both national and local news media for any attention these "feel-good" stories received.

You biggest problem is that you couldn't see or recognize a fact if it walked up and planted itself on the end of your own nose. I'm sure you also quote the National Enquirer as one of your most reliable sources of learned and trusted information.

The one thing I haven't figured out about you though is how a civil servant like you gets to blog all day long? Doesn't your boss expect you to actually do any work?

To I believe in Capitalism,

Thanks for the kind words.

Let me offer some perspective on our anonymous friend. There is a small (thankfully) cadre of people in Naperville, and nationally too, that do not believe in public education for a number of reasons. Partly ideological, partly because they think the schools waste money, and for some because they want vouchers to send their kids to private schools, these people will say anything to damage D203’s reputation in order to move the ball towards dismantling the public schools in America.

So you can see how utterly damaging the many studies showing the academic excellence of D203 students and schools is to them. I have enjoyed Anonymous’ attempt to argue that all the studies are invalid, that black is white, and his personal attacks on yours truly for bringing them to the publics attention. Sadly for him he never laid a glove on me, for as you have pointed out, the studies are valid, show D203’s excellence, and his futile attempts to convince the reader otherwise, just makes him look foolish.

In the end, as the old saying goes,

“When you have the facts on your side, argue the facts. When you have the law on your side, argue the law. When you have neither, holler."

All Anonymous can do is “holler”

Capitalism,

There is absolutely nothing helpful about misleading other people. Higgins sees the world through his own narrow view and his own set of personally selected filters. Gee, I think the word for this is called bias.

Higgins states his opinion and then refers people to a web site he created and managed as a source to verify and support his opinion and you don't find that underhanded and intellectually dishonest?

Higgins is a relentless cheerleader for everything and anything related to 203. Hopefully all of the administration and teachers are watching and appreciate how hard he is sucking up! He is doing it so hard the sound is deafening.

Fact is though, no organization is perfect. All organizations can improve regardless of current performance. Higgins can't bring himself to be intellectually honest and curious enough to criticize 203 or shine any kind of negative light on it as an organization or institution.

I prefer to see the world in a far more open and objective way. I take the good with the bad because that is what we really have. And we use that to make us better and stronger, not to rest on our laurels.

There actually are a lot of things right with 203. There are also a lot of things wrong with 203. We are never going to move forward if we don't all do our own research and make our own decisions about what is good, what is bad, and what needs to change or improve. The danger of people like Higgins is they attempt to set themselves up like some kind of expert when they are not. There are some people who could be easily buffaloed by people like Higgins. I don't expect anyone to believe me and I just hope they don't blindly believe Higgins either. What I really hope is that they care enough to learn more about issues on their own and make up their own mind. And that they use independent, trusted sources for information in their decision making process.

All Higgins is is another poster. Just another resident with another personal opinion. No different from me and my opinion or you and your opinion. At least I am intellectually honest enough to realize that a news media story is not a scientific study and the information presented in such a story has certain real limitations. Yet Higgins and others used this story inappropriately as another convenient excuse to be relentless cheerleaders. Off to the races, blowing their horns before they took the time to stop and think what they were actually reading and then what they were doing.

If Higgins had taken the time to understand the dynamics involved with how these news media stories are produced, their limitation, and their fallacies he could have saved himself an opportunity to publicly embarrass himself.

Anonymous,

I give up. You won't accept the validity of anything that doesn't fit your world view. That is your right, BUT STOP CRITICISING OTHERS WHO TAKE THE TIME TO UNDERSTAND THE DYNAMICS INVOLVED AND WHO PRESENTS IT IN A HELPFUL MANNER.

Bravo, Mr. Higgins

Examples of some of the flaws in these so-called studies were already given in an earlier post so we aren't covering any new ground here.

A lot of what is passed off today in an underhanded attempt at even scientific study is actually money laundered thru several layers to pay for research deliberately manipulated to derive answers that will either benefit a specific firm, a specific product, or a specific industry when it is done thru a trade association. Today, in America we can be proud to be able to have access to all of the scientific studies that money can buy. One week salt is good for you. The next week it isn't. Maybe we should take a little chat about all of the studies payed for by the tobacco industry for many decades? And through this discussion let's not forget that these so-called studies were not and are not scientifically based. If you had even a basic knowledge of scholarly research you would understand why any you wouldn't need me to point out the painfully obvious.

Go ahead and believe what you want about studies that were paid for by for-profit companies. I suppose you blindly believe everything you hear from their marketing and sales departments as well. Since it is a free county feel free to help yourself to as much naivety and gullibility as you please. Let me know when you would like your next helping because you really set yourself up badly for this.

Anonymous,

I'll second, "I Believe in Capitalism's" questions and remind you that you have yet to offer one example of this comment you made on June 11th,

No, actually you are intellectually bankrupt because you never, ever take anything as a whole. Absolutely everything that you quote is cherry picked and you only quote that which is positive. Anything that is neutral or negative does not, is not, and I strongly suspect never will appear on any of your lists or quotes. Going beyond your cherry picked list you then proceed to further filter the information or data by reporting only partial information and twisting or spinning stats to meet your own agenda.

Please show the readers here where I "Cherry pick, ignore negatives, spin and twist, etc."

If you want your opinion to be respected you need to show the proof behind your words.

Anonymous,

Three questions

1. Are you saying if you are a profit making company you can not be trusted to offer a quality product? Making a profit is the backbone of capitalism, and capitalism is the backbone of our country. If they are a for-profit company competing in the market, if they don't offer a quality product, they are gone. That's how it works. I feel BETTER that they are for-profit.

2. Are there studies that Higgins is avoiding that offer a different view, or you feel are more scientifically valid?

3. I looked at the criterion of the USW&WR study and came away impressed at the detail and number of different aspects they take into consideration. It seems scientifically valid to me. Will you tell us SPECIFICALLY, what are the weaknesses of the study and how would you improve on it?

"Well, show some of that intellectual vigor of yours, and tell us all how a the criteria for a major study, created by a major independent educational organization that is part of Standard& Poor's, and not affiliated with USN&WR, is not scientifically valid in your view."

Let's see McGraw-Hill Companies owns Standard & Poor's which in turn owns School Evaluation Services which in turn owns School Matters. Each and every one of these entities is a profit making business. None of these entities is independent nor an educational organization. They each produce and sell a product for a profit. Each level of the corporate structure is acting as a business unit and a profit center.

School Evaluation Services accept raw data from a huge number of sources and then proceeds to manipulate this data using formula and criteria of their own design, in part in an attempt to compensate for known flaws in the data received. The finding are theirs alone and are not subject to any independent or peer review process. Their findings have not been published in any scholarly journals. Their finding are designed and intended to be sold to whoever is willing to purchase the information, such as organizations like USN&WR.

Try taking a careful read on the disclaimers.

You are darn right these are not scientifically valid and for all practical purposes they are not close to even being classified as a study. Raw data massaged into a list to be sold off at a profit does not constitute a study. Recognize that at best all School Evaluation Services has is a large data base. Yes, they try to market it as a bit more but that is the nature of marketing in a profit making organization now isn't it?

Next time try not to be such a gullible nube who fell into the hasty generalization trap and learn how to investigate and evaluate the credibility of your sources less they end up embarrassing you like they did this time. Learn to follow scientific procedures and you might actually be capable of producing a credible argument. Educate yourself and some of the fallacies in your failed attempts at logical argument might actually decrease and who knows, you might even stop making inductive generalizations based upon insufficient evidence.

For, Anonymous on June 17, 2008 12:08 PM

Ah, the tactical retreat.

I particularly enjoy this;

Face it your entire opinion has been built around and supported by news media stories that were written with a simple goal of selling magazines.I appreciate the deepness of your intellectual vigor and curiosity.

Well, show some of that intellectual vigor of yours, and tell us all how a the criteria for a major study, created by a major independent educational organization that is part of Standard& Poor's, and not affiliated with USN&WR, is not scientifically valid in your view.

Your problem in a nutshell is you will not deal with the specifics of the various studies, you go on and on but other than the fact that you don't like the results, you never offer any real substantive reason why. It's just your puffed up opinion. Well, that doesn't cut it, I'm afraid.

As I have stated in the past, I invite people to look for themselves, here is a link to a variety of studies regarding academic performance and the analysis I did regarding them.

Don't take my word for it, read the analysis, reference the studies, and satisfy yourselves as to the validity of the results.

http://www.qualityeducation203.org/20080205referendum/costperformance_mediasurvey.shtml

The Daily Herald and US News and World Report studies are excellent.

Thom Higgins,

Hmm, lets see. Now, according to you, the word mediocre serves to discredit. The definition of mediocre is "... ordinary or moderate quality; neither good nor bad... " and that is discrediting? Hmm and the definition of discrediting is "... to damage reputation; to disgrace..." Seems Mr. Caudill would be a far better example of discrediting than I. It really is a shame you have such a poor command of the English language. That is the best example you could come up with? That's it? You aren't doing very well now are you? Oh, well moving on then.

Oh, and thanks for confirming there are no scientific studies to support your side of the argument. And just so you know people of reasonable intellect don't buy into your dismissal of respected, scholarly journals as a silly gotcha game. In fact most would be insulted by your suggestion. Face it your entire opinion has been built around and supported by news media stories that were written with a simple goal of selling magazines. I appreciate the deepness of your intellectual vigor and curiosity.

Since you have offered nothing new and only keep repeating the same old points and sources this discussion is obviously going nowhere from your end. Since your argument is now looping in useless circles I'm going to be a gentleman and take the high road and bow out rather than cause you to suffer further embarrassment.

Good day to you, sir!

To Anonymous who posted on June 14, 2008 10:19 AM
Regarding this;

Here is a challenge for you. Go back and without spinning, twisting, or taking anything I wrote out of context produce one example, yes just one, where I have written anything to discredit ANY of our local schools.

Well since you are posting anonymously, it should be a little tough, but you actually provide it a few paragraphs down

Despite all of your claims to greatness our schools are actually mired in the sea of mediocracy and sameness

I assume you mean mediocrity? Regardless, I think any teacher, administrator, or parent would take great offense at this statement and certainly would feel that you were trying to discredit the fine work they do. I certainly take offense to it. Didn’t have to look very far to find that one example did I? You seemingly are adamant in ignoring the results D203 achieves, read the following;

Highest overall State test scores among large
PreK-12 (unit) school districts in Illinois
• Fifty-four National Merit Finalists (Class of 2007),
the highest number in District history
• Forty-seven National Merit Semifinalists in the
Class of 2008 represent 6% of the State total, while
the District student enrollment is less than 1%
of State
• Class of 2008 achieved highest ACT scores in
District history (25.1), with 99% of students taking
ACT (college entrance) exam
• Graduation rate of 96%
• Both high schools in the top ten public high schools
in Illinois (excluding public schools in Chicago with
selective admissions, i.e., “magnet” schools) on state
PSAE exam (Chicago Tribune, Fall 2007)

Or, perhaps you should e-mail at the Central and North HS teachers who won this years Sliffe award and talk about how mediocre their efforts are.

http://www.unl.edu/amc/f-miscellaneous/f4-sliffe/Alumni/Illinois.shtml

Regarding this.

Now here is a second challenge for you. Go out there and produce one scientific based study that has been published in a nationally recognized scholarly journal that supports your side of this argument. Yes, just one study.

Hey, are you going to conveniently ignore my “challenge” to you? I made it first! I would think you would relish finding all these misrepresentations you claim I’m making!

But back to your second challenge. Oooohhhh, very tricky here you are. Figure the scholarly journal requirement is going to trip me up right because that’s all you will recognize as valid . I get it, very cleaver.

For anyone else that has some sense of good will and not interested in playing silly gotcha games I point you to the USN&WR study.

http://www.usnews.com/sections/education/high-schools/

Here is the methodology,

http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/high-schools/2007/11/29/the-ranking-formula.html

And here’s the Standard and Poor’s owned organization that developed it.

http://www.schoolmatters.com/schools.aspx/q/page=ab

This won’t be enough for our friend here I’m sure.

Thom Higgins,

Here is a challenge for you. Go back and without spinning, twisting, or taking anything I wrote out of context produce one example, yes just one, where I have written anything to discredit ANY of our local schools.

The truth be known I have only written to discredit you and certain news media articles because both you and the news media articles are attempting to seriously mislead people with misinformation. While you may not admit it and may not even be conscious of it you also have a really, really bad habit of taking what others write out of context, which is why I referred to you as intellectually immature.

Now here is a second challenge for you. Go out there and produce one scientific based study that has been published in a nationally recognized scholarly journal that supports your side of this argument. Yes, just one study.

The truth be known our local schools are far from perfect. They need need higher goals. They need higher education standards. They need to develop performance standards. We can not advance or push forward the bar of excellence by resting on past accomplishments or previous laurels. Our school districts have the ability to be the VERY best in America. Not second best. Not lost somewhere towards the bottom of the "top 1300". We can and should do better than that.

To actually reach the very top we must have professional leadership along with parental and taxpayer support of such a vision. Right now we have a lot of arrogance and attitude about the quality of things in general in Naperville. Unfortunately, we also have apathy, complacency, and misconceptions about the quality of education actually being delivered.

Despite all of your claims to greatness our schools are actually mired in the sea of mediocracy and sameness. There isn't another school district out there in a neighboring community that doesn't have it's own cherry picked list of accolades and accomplishments. That is not the point. The point is not what others think about us. It is especially not the point in today's society where we hand out awards a dime a dozen. The net result of all this "positive reinforcement" is that everyone thinks they are great and have trouble understanding what truly distinguishes us from the rest, what truly makes us different or great.

Those who have worked within or been part of organizations that were "best in class" can tell you that when you are in the situation of being the very best... you know it... you feel it... and you certainly do not need to be told how good you are by anyone else. Another attribute of organizations who truly are "best in class" is that they strive to make themselves better. They are actually driven to continue to develop and evolve and lead as opposed to just following along with whatever the rest of the pack is doing.

An organization is either out there and is leading or it isn't. If it is just running with the pack it does not matter what relative place it holds within the pack. No one cares whether you are running towards the front or towards the rear. The only thing that information is useful for is for any individual placeholder to use it to their advantage to effect positive change and improvement for the future.

Our job as parents and taxpayers isn't to pat ourselves on the back because of past teachers or past years accomplishments. Those accolades go to, were earned by, and belong to those that participated in that moment of education. To the rest of us it is meaningless and irrelevant. Each year we have a new crop of students and they are different and unique from all past years. We have to continue to push the bar higher if we want to continue to improve the quality of education.

To do that we need a lot of people to do some heavy lifting. The list includes taxpayers, parents, students, teachers, administrators, school boards, and a lot of other people who support the overall effort of education in our community as well. Hopefully you are up to the challenge and will join the quest for continuously advancing the quality of our education.

Or you can waste your time analyzing meaningless data from classes long graduated. The choice is for you and all other interested and concerned people to make. I can only hope you make the right choice and devote your future efforts to where it will really count, where it will really matter for present and future classes of students.

To Anonymous;

Regarding your post on June 11, 2008 8:25 AM

Hey, don't hold back tell us what you really think!

Yours is probably the best rant ever aimed my way. My congratulations, this might have to find its way onto our website for posterity. It's make me laugh every time I read it.

Seriously, to the other readers here, this is a perfect example of the critics trying to drown out the message as it is so damaging to their desire to discredit the local schools. Truth be damned I guess.

I urge you to click on the link below. You will find an in depth analysis I did of a number of major studies ranking D203 and D204 schools. I stand by the analysis, and there are links to the original studies.

Please don't take my word for it. Go read my analysis then refer to the original source information. If anyone can find a misstatement in my analysis, please post it here with your explanation as to why it is wrong and your sources.

That goes for you too Anonymous. Please expose me to the world for my ...cherry picked list you then proceed to further filter the information or data by reporting only partial information and twisting or spinning stats to meet your own agenda.

Here's the link

http://www.qe203.org/20080205referendum/costperformance_mediasurvey.shtml

We do need to update the Newsweek information.

Adding NV, NN, and NC to the list does not add anything to the credibility of these high schools or, more importantly, to the credibility of the actual list. In fact, the very need to add schools only points out one of many and more glaring flaws with non-scientific based reports and lists such as this and many others which are very similar. The truth be known there are hundreds and hundreds of high schools in communities all across America that have been omitted from this list. If and when the entire list is ever corrected those schools currently appearing on the list would most likely either see their current place slip further down or possibly even be removed from the list. What would our community response be when or if WV, NV, NN, or NC slid all the way down and off the list? If we are to take so much pride and stock in one of these so-called ranking list then why in the world should we be happy and satisfied to have hundreds and hundreds of other high schools supposedly performing much better than our schools? Shouldn't our normal response be ask why our schools do not place in the top 10, the top 100 even? Let's not forget that WV started at #1,079, then slid to #1,107 and is now down to #1,134. At this rate it is fully possible for WV to slide completely off the list. As one other way of looking at rankings... there are similar news media articles that rank the hospitals in America. Let's say you have a major medical issue and need to find a hospital and doctor to treat your illness or disease. How many of us would settle, in our time of personal crisis, for a hospital that was rated #1,134, #1,107, or even 1, 079? No, I didn't think so either! While we are being honest with each other; would we settle for a hospital that wasn't at least in the top 100? Why should our expectation for the quality of our children's education be any lower than our own expectations for quality in health care?

There are many other local high schools that are worthy contenders who are also held in high regard by their own communities and the vast majority of these high schools do not appear on this list either. Yet we find the top students at these other schools competing head-to-head with our top grads at the best universities.

We already know families with special needs children deliberately move into SD 204 from all over the chicago metro area. There is a belief spread through the special needs community that SD204 has better special needs programs than any other district. What does that say about special needs in other districts? What does that say about the disproportionate number of special needs students in our schools? The same argument is true about the perception of "academic excellence". Families will deliberately move into school districts where they believe their children will receive a better education. This does skew the normal average of gifted vs average students so that a disproportionate number of gifted students results. Anyone who ignores this fact of conscious choice on the part of parents and throws themselves in front of the train to believe it is only the result of the quality of education is intellectually immature and actually quite naive about the realities of our education system.

If we truly wanted to know how all of our schools were doing. If we truly wanted to know how our individual school stacked up. If we truly wanted to know if public or private or charter or magnet or anything else worked better than something or anything else we would all be shouting from the rooftops for a uniform, mandatory nation-wide system of testing and comparison.

The educators are scared to death of such a system. They fight it tooth and nail. It has become a political battle of special interests fighting against why it isn't possible or why it can't happen or why a given school or district can't or shouldn't participate. Poppycock.

When and only when we, as parents, as community members, as students, demand that our educational system becomes the finest in the world and do everything in our power to reach and maintain that standard of learning will we really start to identify the strengths and weaknesses in our existing system. Until then we will have placebo's and salve's like these list from the news media that mislead our community pride into believing what we want to believe.

Future Aurora Resident on June 12, 2008 4:55 PM

F.A.R. don't let the opinions of very few sway your opinion of the majority, although it seems as though your opinion has already been formed. i.e. your comment about "elitists", and "some of you folks are worse than I even suspected you would be". Sounds like a little preconceived opinion going on f.a.r.? As for someone asking you where you are going to live, what would you prefer they say? If you tell someone you are moving it seems like a polite inquiry to simply ask where?

I do hope that we are neighbors because we will welcome you and probably bring you a plate of cookies and maybe even carpool if you have kids. Yes we do have some of the best schools in the nation which you will hear about from everyone, unless you only get your news and opinion from the writers on the Sun's blog.

Future Aurora Resident on June 12, 2008 4:55 PM

F.A.R. don't let the opinions of very few sway your opinion of the majority, although it seems as though your opinion has already been formed. i.e. your comment about "elitists", and "some of you folks are worse than I even suspected you would be". Sounds like a little preconceived opinion going on f.a.r.? As for someone asking you where you are going to live, what would you prefer they say? If you tell someone you are moving it seems like a polite inquiry to simply ask where?

I do hope that we are neighbors because we will welcome you and probably bring you a plate of cookies and maybe even carpool if you have kids. Yes we do have some of the best schools in the nation which you will hear about from everyone, unless you only get your news and opinion from the writers on the Sun's blog.

We are in the process of buying a house in Aurora, and our kids will go to Waubonsie. We were always ok with this as we generally try not to align ourselves with the elitists.

I do have one question though. Now that Neuqua, NN, and NC have been added to the list, where are all of the folks who debunked the list as meaningless? Does that sentiment still apply? I almost don't want to move to the area now that I see that some of you folks are worse than I even suspected you would be.

And if one more person asks me "What Part..." of Aurora I am moving to when I tell them I am buying a house there I am going to slap them...seriously. You all need to get over yourselves.

You have some of the best schools in the nation, and you still can't seem to find a way to get along. There are people who have much worse "choices", and cannot afford private school in their wildest dreams. Please adjust your attitudes accordingly.

For those of you who "get it" and support what goes on in your community, hopefully you live on my street.

No, actually you are intellectually bankrupt because you never, ever take anything as a whole. Absolutely everything that you quote is cherry picked and you only quote that which is positive. Anything that is neutral or negative does not, is not, and I strongly suspect never will appear on any of your lists or quotes. Going beyond your cherry picked list you then proceed to further filter the information or data by reporting only partial information and twisting or spinning stats to meet your own agenda.

If and when you ever report anything that is objective and factual, that paints the entire total true picture the possibility exists that others might listen or even buy into your position. Despite all of your many posts and continued whining and protests you have not produced one single scholarly study or report that supports any of your boasts or claims. Maybe you feel comfortable relying upon journalistic news media stories when making decisions or reaching conclusion of this caliber. Yet you exhibit little understanding or respect to other people who disagree with the type, caliber, and objectivity of your sources as being an acceptable basis for reaching such conclusions.

Yes, you are shallow and intellectually immature. God bless your right to your opinion. I hope your conclusions and opinions help you sleep better at night, secure in your own quest to rationalize and justify what you want to believe.

To, Anonymous on June 2, 2008 7:16 AM

Your comments are pretty funny.

On my side we have "my blind acceptance" your words, of these sources,

Newsweek, US News and World Report, The Chicago Tribune, Chicago Magazine, The Daily Herald, The Illinois State Board of Education, and the independent organization's that conducted the various studies.

Who, and where, are your sources that rebuts this information?

I know it kills you that all these studies show how well D203 Students achieve academically and D203's part in that achievement, but offering nothing in response save calling me names conclusively proves just who is "intellectually bankrupt".

Thom,

Your blind acceptance of all of the quoted sources that supposedly support your argument do not make them objective or facts. You have no more or less proof than I or anyone else. You just choose to believe in your own small and narrow mind that what you claim is proof and since you believe it, why it must be proof enough. You are intellectually incapable of accepting any argument that disagrees with yours. So who really is intellectually bankrupt? Take a good look in your mirror.

I was happy to see NSFOC's suit dismissed by means of an almost unassailable memorandum order. Now the North Siders can at last have a neighborhood school for their children. Judge Popejoy and his staff seem to have done a very careful job in writing the order, and in his last paragraph, he reiterates the essential untruth behind NSFOC's existence.

The judge has set a status hearing for June 5, when, I hope, the district will ask for damages from NSFOC and its backers for the expense we taxpayers have incurred in defending this meritless litigation. NSFOC's selfish and childish actions should not go unpunished.

Anonymous.

Let's see, I base my opinion on the results of studies, and data, from these organizations;

US New& World Report

Newsweek

The Chicago Tribune

The Daily herald

Chicago Magazine

The Illinois Board of Education Report Cards.

Now you claim there are such serious flaws in these studies as to make them useless. Yet you offer no proof, analysis, or objective facts, that prove that you are right and all the professionals who created these many studies are wrong.

And you ask how long do I want to flog your position here?

For as long as you are willing to reply with more Orwellian, Black is White, Fiction is Fact, rhetoric.

Believe me, I'm more than happy to see you respond as you do. It only helps further illustrate, I'm sorry to say, the complete intellectual bankruptcy of your position.

"Facts be damned"?

And I'm sure you consider the Newsweek study to be a "fact" despite all of it's mistakes and flaws?

I am not biased against Naperville schools. I am biased against your attempts to give broad-brush credit to Naperville schools for your own assumptions, conclusions, and biases.

I never said I knew "better than all the professionals..." you said that... so I guess thank you for the back-handed compliment!

BTW, you are the only one claiming these to be professional studies and anyone who was intellectually curious enough to dig beneath the surface would know that these are far from what would be considered acceptable as professional studies.

I am not unwilling to credit our schools with anything. I am also not willing to run on speculation, inference, or assumptions as you most clearly are to attribute something, anything to the schools when even the studies you have used to prop up your side of the discussion fail to come to this same conclusion.

Go ahead and ignore everything that demonstrates that there are serious flaws in how these so called studies were conducted and their results. Go ahead and jump to your own conclusions. Go ahead and assume there is a connection to the results even though even the authors of the studies have not made any such connection. Go ahead and try. And keep trying and trying and trying. In the end there won't be many people who agree with you or your faulty logic.

Recognize your argument for what it is. Your opinion. Nothing more. Nothing less.

It is hard enough to get experts to agree when they see the results of scientifically conducted studies. People can look at the same numbers, the same statistics and see different answers. Compound that fact by these studies being far from scientific and it doesn't leave us much to agree on.

Maybe you are comfortable making emotional decisions. I am not. I rely more on analysis and objective facts. I am open to revising my opinion about Naperville schools. Neither you nor anyone else has quoted or referred to anything that even comes close to being objective and factual that attributes the schools, the administration, the teachers, the textbooks, or the curriculum to any success that is enjoyed by Naperville students.

I can agree to disagree with you and you can be steadfast in your own resolve that your opinions and conclusions alone are correct.

The biggest question I have for you is how long do you want to flog this dead horse?

Anonymous,

Yes, we are blessed with a lot of above average families and children, and they are the fundamental foundation that our schools build on. I think everyone in Naperville would most likely agree.

But your steadfast refusal to not credit, in any way, the role of Naperville schools betrays your anti public school bias.

As I illustrated yesterday, a number of nearby, similarly hi socioeconomic school districts have significantly lower College Readiness test scores. If you will not accept the simple fact that the schools have a significant role in that difference, what is the reason? Are the children of Wheaton, Glen Ellyn, St. Charles, Geneva, Barrington, etc. that much less gifted?

As I have previously stated, your unwillingness to credit our schools for being important and successful partners in our children's education, coupled with your constant attempts to discredit all the various studies, illustrates that you simply are interested in damaging the reputation and achievement of Naperville schools. Facts be damned.

You can go on and on forever, you can say it's only the children and their families, you can say you know better than all the professionals that conducted the myriad studies illustrating the academic successes of our schools, but in the end you won't convince many people.

"We are blessed with some of the best schools in the state and nation."

Blessed with...

As in divine intervention? Now you are thanking God for our schools? And here I though you were supporting the teachers and curriculum and the administration. But now we are just blessed? Well, God bless you too!

We are also blessed with a lot of highly educated and successful families who choose to live in Naperville. You would do better to thank them for choosing to live here and propping up the test scores. So since you haven't, I will. God bless all the families who choose to live in Naperville!

The fact remains that the children of these highly educated and successful families do well on our schools and they would do well in any other school district in the country for that matter. Take away these families and their children and what is left?

We have a lot of above average families and above average children. It is not out of the ball park to expect that these kids will also naturally perform above average. Go ahead and try to find anyone in Naperville who actually expect their children to perform below average. How many people in Naperville willingly accept when their children only are able to perform at an average level?

So we have a bunch of above average students who are pushed and encouraged by their above average parents to compete and do well and as a result these kids do well on some tests.

Not one drop of this tells us anything objectively about what difference, if any, the school made with this outcome. If measured the student. You would have us all infer and believe that it is "Naperville schools". Yet not one aspect of Naperville schools has been measured.

These "studies" prove nothing other than they feed the ego of people who care only to brag about being on a silly list.

Sorry to see you are so shallow and gullible. Learn to live with it.

To all of you who have tried to tell people from waubonsie to apologize for gloating.... NO.

we are proud of our accomplishment and we can gloat as much as we want. we may be the lowest in the district/naperville but its out of the entire NATION!!!!! enough said!

so Anon1, please stop. ur statement was rude and im guessing your a typical Naperville parent.

and have you not realized that the list went from being the top 1300 schools in the nation to the top 1305 in the nation...
im assuming some bribing went on. Because God for bid some schools from naperville arent on the list and a school from Aurora is, now that just isnt right now is it.

People in the 203 and 204 school districts need to stop being so ignorant. there is always hatred against WV because of the town and the made up reputations. We dont have a jail in the basement. our school isnt all "black" students, and the students here actually plan to do something with their lives, other than survive off of mommy and daddy's money for the rest of their lives.

seriously.

Anonymous,

So now we are talking about ranking by state?

Are Naperville school administrators now responsible for all school districts in Illinois?

The fact remains that there are some 18,000 public high schools in the US. In the Newsweek study, Naperville high schools ranked from 910 to 1107. In the USN&WR study both D203 high schools ranked in the Silver category, representing the top 2-3% nationally, or let's say in the top 500-600 schools nationally. These are the only national studies I know of.

Combined with studies that compare Chicagoland area districts whose results I've outlined previously, the simple fact is We are blessed with some of the best schools in the state and nation.

Live with it.

Well, maybe you are right, maybe we should move.

We could start with moving to California which has three times the population of Illinois yet it has nearly five times as many high schools in the so called "top 1300". Or how about little old Virginia which only has 2/3 of our population yet managed to have twice as many high schools on the list. Or Florida which has about 40 percent more people than Illinois yet managed to have three times as many schools on the list. Or New York which has about 50 per cent more people than Illinois yet managed to have 3 1/2 times as many high school on the list.

Illinois is the fifth largest state in terms of population and all four states with more people did significantly better than Illinois on the same tests that you want to quote. IF these results are a good measure of "top high schools" then children have a greater chance of attending a "top high school" in California, Texas, New York, or Florida than they do in Illinois.

But then you obviously do not care about the actual quality of education received by all of our children you only want to smugly gloat about the supposed superiority of Naperville schools.

The bottom line is that you can gloat all you want. You can be as arrogant and as conceited as you want. Your attitude of superiority will do nothing to change how your own children, if you even have any, actually perform in Naperville schools. I just hope for your and their sake that they aren't one of those really average kids who are slipping though any of the many cracks in 203.

Looks like the list has been corrected. Surprise, WVHS is now in the lowest place out of 203 and 204 schools. So will all of the gloaters at WVHS now apologize to the rest of us? The people sneering at the "Elitists" don't look so good when doing so from last place.

Anonymous,

Regarding this statement of yours;

Tell me that 100% of our graduates are prepared to receive a "C" or higher with college level work. Tell me that 100% of our graduates become college graduates..... If you are prepared to tell me that and factually support such claims I will start to believe that we truly have excellent schools.

Forgetting for a moment that saying that an excellent high school will somehow manage to have a 100% college graduation rate which is farcical, and I will guarantee has never happened, how about this factually supported claim that 51% of D203 students passed all four categories in the ACT College readiness test that is predicated on a "B" grade, not a "C" grade. 90% passed the English portion, 77% passed Social Studies, 71% passed math, and 56% passed biology. Remember this is for a "B" grade not a "C" grade.

What's interesting is the results for many schools that have quite similar socioeconomic environment but do not do as well as D203.

Let's start with the easy one D204, with a score of 38%, same town and the D204 area is probably a bit wealthier on average that the D203 area, or how about these others?

Wheaton-Warrenville 41%

Barrington 40%

Geneva 36%

Glen Ellyn 29%

Elmhurst 30%

St. Charles 30%

Now these communities are certainly comparable on a socioeconomic basis, so please tell us what the difference is if not the schools?

If we were to believe you that the schools here don't make a real difference, then I guess we need our kids to, as you say, "move elsewhere" where they will magically bring up the scores wherever they go.

Link for above stats;

http://www.qualityeducation203.org/20080205referendum/documents/chapter_10_sorted_rank_dh_data.pdf

To Average Student,

Yes! Yes! Yes!

We definitely have many gifted, talented and highly intelligent students amongst us. Their sheer natural desire, curiosity, and ability to learn would prevail even if they were transfered to a school in a third world country where they couldn't even speak the language. Yes, we have exceptional students and they trully have the ability to excel anywhere.

Our school districts are not randomly populated by people. People consciously choose to live where they do. Moving east to west we have SD 203 (Naperville), SD 204 (Indian Prairie), SD 131 (East Aurora). How or why is it that SD 203 and 204 are perceived by some to be such "good schools" and then the perception is that SD 131 is one of the poorest performing schools in the state?

How well our schools perform reflect more on the people who choose to live in Naperville than the ability of our education system. If these same people moved elsewhere it is not reasonable to expect that their children will all of a sudden perform at a lower level and as part of corporate life many families do relocate in and out of Naperville. I'm willing to make a bold guess that the communities people came from and the communities that people go to on corporate relocations will be similar to Naperville in many ways. We can look at all of the major cities in America and all of the suburbs clustered around each of them and with a little digging fairly easily determine which suburbs are pretty much a close clone of what we have here in Naperville. No not exact, but pretty close. And you know what? If we study the schools in these communities we will find that they all pretty much perform just like the schools in 203 and 204. All very much average in our own little peer group.

Yet every community has families with students who have difficulty learning. There are a variety of reasons why these children do not do well in school. Some are failing, some will drop out. Some are sliding through the system with "C's and D's". Some are spoiled under achievers.

Yet these are the students we really need to care about. These are the students who need help and guidance or they will fail and they are too young to realize the lifelong consequences they face.

Don't tell me about the gifted students who the teachers have to chase just to keep up them as a measure of educational performance. Tell me about the kids we saved in 203 and 204. Tell me that we have zero dropouts in 203 and 204. Tell me that 100% of our graduates go on to college. Tell me that 100% of our graduates are prepared to receive a "C" or higher with college level work. Tell me that 100% of our graduates become college graduates.

If you are prepared to tell me that and factually support such claims I will start to believe that we truly have excellent schools. Until then I will remain steadfast in my belief that we are given nothing more than the mere illusion of excellence.

I agree with prev Anonymous 3:01 PM in that 203 and 204 and good school districts but not excellant. Excellence means different things to different folks. Surely these districts can be viewed as smart choices for this area but excellent, I'm not sure about that.

The fact that the scores are higher than some other schools and they rank better than some others in the area does not make it excellent in my opinion. Sure a good option because it's better than the neighbors so to speak.

Anan 3:01, how do you define excellence and what school meets that criteria? We all have different standards and definitions and I am curious as to how you would propose to measure and quantify excellance. While current rankings may not completely measure all the variables that go into defining great schools at least it may provide it's readers with a direction in which to further their research or inquiry.

Anonymous on May 27, 2008 3:01 PM

After reading your last posting I wonder if your point is that District 203 (and 204?) are nothing more than mediocre schools taught by mediocre teachers, but the students themselves are truly gifted and intelligent?

Was your line, "These same students would excel anywhere" a compliment to the D203/4 students or am I missing your point completely, in which case I assume you mean that everyone, students and teachers alike, are average?

Anonymous

As I stated before, this is getting silly. All of the statistics, all of these studies, supposedly mean nothing. Schools don't make any difference, all schools have the same results, blah, blah, blah.

You complain of no first, second, or third place examples? Please re-read my prior posts. Your ability to ignore the facts is truly amazing. Or do you require our schools to be in the top three for the entire country?

You can keep trying to make the argument that all of this is meaningless, but in light of all the many accomplishments of D203 and D204, you are just making yourself look foolish. Perhaps that's why you don't have the courage to post your name. So much easier to throw stones when you post anonymously.

Thanks for proving my point. Lot's of hand picked examples that only prove 203 schools have some accolades. So does every other school. Go ahead and find me some examples of schools that don't have something to brag about.

Every school lobby is filled with trophy cases as testament to how great they are. But is it greatness or mear mediocracy disguised as greatness in the rush to bestow praise and awards and trophies on everyone who participates?

Truly excellent? Not from any of the examples that were hand picked and let's face it most of the examples don't even come close to measuring educational performance.

You want to talk academic excellence then you better have some first, second, or third place examples. And you better have them examples consistently over time to demonstrate that this is sustainable excellence. Otherwise you are just as guilty as the rest of playing a game of smoke and mirrors with episodic and statistical aberrations.

Truly gifted and intelligent students will find a way to succeed even when surrounded by a mediocre education system and mediocre teachers. It is no different than truly gifted athletes winning a game despite having a mediocre coach. These same student would excel anywhere.

Produce a study that shows us compellingly that the 203 system allowed these students to perform at their very best. Or show us a study that shows us compellingly that the 203 system pulled the average students into a higher level of performance.

Just don't tell me a whole bunch of students did really well on AP tests because they would have done just as well anywhere else. The fact that they live in Naperville proves nothing.

Here's some more points of interest for Anonymous to disagree with. From D203.

• Highest overall State test scores among large
PreK-12 (unit) school districts in Illinois

• Fifty-four National Merit Finalists (Class of 2007),
the highest number in District history

• Forty-seven National Merit Semifinalists in the
Class of 2008 represent 6% of the State total, while
the District student enrollment is less than 1%
of State

• Class of 2008 achieved highest ACT scores in
District history (25.1), with 99% of students taking
ACT (college entrance) exam

• Graduation rate of 96%

• Both high schools in the top ten public high schools
in Illinois (excluding public schools in Chicago with
selective admissions, i.e., “magnet” schools) on state
PSAE exam (Chicago Tribune, Fall 2007)

• Both high schools rated “silver,” in top 2-3% of
public high schools in the nation (U.S. News &
World Report, Fall 2007)

• Student achievement well-above state average, with
91.6% (reading) and 93.3% (math) of all students
achieving a “meets” or “exceeds” on State tests

• Our high schools ranked first and third in a Chicago
Magazine measure of school achievement (ACT)
relative to per pupil student spending, when
compared to all 233 non-magnet Chicago-area high
schools (Chicago Magazine, Fall 2007)

• On TIMMS-R (1999), District eighth grade students
scored first in the world in science and sixth in the
world in mathematics, among the 38 participating
countries and consortiums

And what really stinks is 203 does it for less;

District spending per pupil is $9,881, only $393
above the state average of $9,488 (2007 State
Report Card)

• According to a Fall 2007 Daily Herald analysis of
94 suburban school districts for the ten school years
1996-1997 through 2005-2006, District 203 was
reported to have:

o Second highest test scores at the 16th lowest cost
per student

o Total revenue that was 25.6% below that of the
average district

o Administrative cost (as percent of total revenue)
that was 41.9% below the average district

o Low debt - among the lowest of Illinois districts

Gee anonymous, sure make me want to back my bags!!!!!!

Anonymous,

Now you're just being silly.

I'm the one pointing to a variety of studies all with differing sets of criterion.

You are the one who is guilty of this;

Do all of your own home brewed analysis. Come up with all of your own conclusions. Relish the rationalizations that you have justified in your own mind. Sleep comfortably at night knowing what you know.

Those are your words, and your actions sir.

As I said before, fine, forget Newsweek if you want. The fact remains the two 203 HS's earned a Silver nationally in the USN&WR study. 203's HS's came in 2nd, and 204 HS's placed 6th, in the Daily Herald study of 34 Chicagoland HS districts. Combine that with the Chicago Magazine study where 203's HS's came in first and third in cost effectiveness per ACT score, and lastly, look at the Illinois State board of education report cards with costs and ACT scores. If this isn't enough, well then I'm sorry, nothing will satisfy you. But realize there is no escaping the fact that it is you who is guilty of;

Doing all of your own home brewed analysis.

Coming up with your own conclusions.

Relish the rationalizations that you have justified in your own mind.

Sleep comfortably at night knowing what you know.

As far as your claim that people are moving out of Naperville because the schools are deficient, I'll pen a response as soon as I....can....stop....laughing....!!!!!!

Face it, you can post here till you're 80 how you think the schools stink, but the facts remain; We have excellent schools, and the citizens support them as evidenced by the defeat of those Taxpayers Ticket yokels,(including a sitting board member,Mike Davitt), and more recently, the overwhelming passage of 203's construction referendum.

So at least in D203 where I reside, the people who live to attack public education have lost the argument. The majority of residents aren't interested in this kind of anti-public school propaganda.

Thom Higgins,

Blah, blah, blah. Next time reading and thinking before you post.

"Answer; We do not include magnet or charter high schools that draw high concentrations of top students whose average SAT or ACT scores significantly exceed the highest average for any normal enrollment school in the country..."

Really, then why were all 8 Chicago Public high schools not excluded from the "study"?

Why were 3 out of 4 Naperville high schools originally left out of the study?

This study has enormous flaws and more holes than swiss cheese.

Think about your own lack of credibility when you grasp at straws like this to try to "prove" that Naperville schools "are something special."

Think about how many people actually move out of Naperville because they do not want their children to attend 203 or 204 high schools. Yes, it is happening.

Think about what we pay in property taxes, most of which goes to the school district, and explain why thousands of Naperville residents pay additional tuition so their children will not attend 203 or 204 high schools. And while you are contemplating those reasons think about whether or not all of these thousands of high school students would increase or decrease the current level of performance shown by students. Further consider how well the 203 and 204 high schools would perform if all the alternative high schools did not exist and these students had to be accommodated in the existing high schools.

So keep grasping at straws. Keep dragging out all of the unscientific studies you want. Do all of your own home brewed analysis. Come up with all of your own conclusions. Relish the rationalizations that you have justified in your own mind. Sleep comfortably at night knowing what you know.

I understand why you think the way you do. One of these days you too will finally realize what cripples your thinking and you will wake up to the fact there there is just so much that you don't know you don't know about Naperville schools.

Anonymous,

Blah, blah, blah. As I've said before there are a host of studies, all with different criteria. Don't like the Newsweek one? fine. There are all the others, and interestingly, our schools do really well on all of them. So, once again, if you think the various criteria used in the Newsweek, USN&WR, The Daily Herald, etc., studies are flawed, and you are smarter than all of them, and can come up with study of your own that will have superior results, please edify us. Otherwise it is as I have said previously. You just won't acknowledge that Naperville schools are something special.

As for the Newsweek study being unscientific or deceptive, they prominently place this link on the results page;

http://www.newsweek.com/id/137421

which is a story of the kind of schools deemed to elite to be on their list. also there is this in their extensive FAQ

Question; Why don't I see famous public high schools like Stuyvesant in New York City or Thomas Jefferson in Fairfax County, Va., on the NEWSWEEK list?

Answer; We do not include magnet or charter high schools that draw high concentrations of top students whose average SAT or ACT scores significantly exceed the highest average for any normal enrollment school in the country....The Challenge Index is designed to honor schools that have done the best job in persuading average students to take college level courses and tests. It does not work with schools that have no, or almost no, average students. The idea is to create a list that measures how good schools are in challenging all students, and not just how high their students' test scores are.

Thom Higgins,

Newsweek and USN&WR can do all of the so called studies they want. Let's not forget that the articles they publish are motivated to drive sales. No different than the Naperville Sun filling the sports pages with lots of pictures of local elementary and high school teams... the parents love to see their kids and their schools and the newspaper folks know that translates into more papers sold.

These are not scientific studies, not even close. Yet they sell the results as "the top of the class" and "The complete list of the 1,300 top U.S. high schools." And then after the blazing headline there is all the fine point. This is simply false advertising at best even if we could agree that this study actually measured something meaningful and that these measures are indicative of what represents the top high schools. Are you that gullible to believe anything that a Newsweek reported anounces to be the gospel truth and you do not have any intellectual curiosity to make your own determination?

Go look at the Lincoln Park High School web site and you will see that they are bragging that they are "Newsweek's #1 rated school in Illinois" Maybe in their haste to find their own ranking at number 88 they missed Northside Academy beating them out at number 14? Regardless there are 8 Chicago Public High Schools in the list of the top 1,300 and every single one of these CPS operates with selective admission programs. They are allowed to pick the best of the best among tens of thousands of Chicago students yet in our local area neither IMSA nor a private school like Benet Academy meet the criteria to be included in such a list?

Go ahead and believe what you may, believe what you want. I still maintain this list is advertised falsely and is very misleading with regard to which are truly the best or top schools in our nation.

How can anyone accept Northside Adademy, rated at number 14 in the entire country is better than IMSA or University High when IMSA and University High weren't even given a shot at the list and were automatically excluded because a reporter's opinion was that they were "too elite"? Yet the advertising of these so called results lead the casual reader to actually believe that Northside is better or rated higher than IMSA or University High which simply is not true.

"Top" means top. "Complete list" means the complete list. Newsweek should be ashamed for having published such a biased and misleading story.

Boy this is getting tiresome.

The Newsweek poll is one of many different education polls, all using various criteria. If you are asking which HS's have the largest percentage of students that are in AP classes and take the test(you don't have to take it I believe), and you believe that it is reasonable to exclude private and admissions based schools as they get to pick only the highest performers, then the study has some relevance to you. It is a reasonable belief that a higher percentage of students talking AP classes, will lead to a higher level of education for the students.

QE203.org has done a detailed analysis of various studies(especially the Daily Herald and USN&WR), that rate 204 and 203 schools. link here;

http://www.qe203.org/20080205referendum/costperformance_mediasurvey.shtml

While it is more oriented to 203, there are links to the various studies and you can find the 204 data easily. Take a look.

Bottom line? Naperville schools are truly excellent, especially the 203 HS's. Looking at all the different studies in totality, you will see that the griping you read here about how flawed the studies are and how mediocre our schools are, is more of the same from the "I hate public schools" folks, nothing sets them off more than good news regarding our schools.

What I said earlier still stands. This is a junk list and isn't worth the ink or the paper it is printed on.

WV has now dropped from 1079 to 1107.

NN, NC, and NV were all accidentally omitted from the original list? Out of the tens of thousands of other high schools how many others were accidentally omitted? We already know that at least 9 per cent of all high schools in the nation were deliberately omitted from the list. A huge bias was show by not including any private high schools in the study and then even more bias was introduced by excluding some public high schools, like IMSA in Aurora and University High in Urbana, because they were considered "too elite". The net result is that what is being billed and sold as the top 1300 high schools in the U.S. really is nothing but an inflated list that deliberately misleads people into believing where their school stands is true and accurate.

If a true total list was ever compiled it is anyones guess if any or all Naperville high schools would be on or off the list. Obviously other schools are finding themselves missing from the list and or questioning the data used which helps explain, in part, why WV fell from 1079 to 1107. It is open to speculation how many other errors were made within the 91 percent of high schools intended to be included in this study. It is further open to speculation what would happen to all of the current standings if the other 9 percent of high schools which were deliberately omitted from the study were included. It is even further open to speculation what would happen if the authors of the study had exercised some intellectual honesty and actually included all public high schools instead of showing bias towards the public high schools which truly are the best of the best. Lop of the best of the best. Lop off all of the private. What remains is the vast sea of mediocracy and then we are supposed to that these are the best of the best? Who is kidding who?

And then we still have to go back to the very basis of what the list is supposed to measure and represent in the first place and ask ourselves if we agree that this is or is not even close to being a true measure of what constitutes a "top U.S. high school"?

The list may be a sure winner for Newsweek. It has given Newsweek a ton of publicity and driven thousands to their web site. Apparently it has also given a lot of people some basis of pride in their local high school. While having pride in ones local high school is commendable I'm not convinced this study has any real basis to be a source of that pride.

A drop in rank could be obtained if less students are taking the AP test each year at Neuqua.

Another reason may very likely be because the competition is getting tougher each year. Last year to get a rank of say 6oo perhaps meant 1/2 the kids took AP (made up # for Example). This year to get that same rank of 600 the school may have to have say 3/4 of kids take the test. This can be due to the fact that more schools are participating. Neuqua could have the same ratio of test scores/students yet drop in rank because more schools are doing better each year, thus changing the placement on the list

Neuqua comes out on top. Out ranking Naper North, Central and Waubonsie or does it?

Take a look closer they are dropping in ranking each year as compared to the last. Why?

What will you say when the achievement test results for this year are in - all tests required to be taken in English for the first time in modern history. No Child Left Behind will be leaving WVHS behind right? How is this situation being managed?

It's not just about taking a test. It's the idea that kids that are challenged during high school through AP classes have a higher chance of completing college compared to those that do not take AP classes. The idea is based on the research that being challenged in high school is a better indicator of college success than test scores, class ranking, etc (typical measures of college success). If kids are challenged even if they don't do well in AP classes they will perform better in college. The ranked schools apparently provide that challenge.

Not every school requires kids to be prepared for AP classes in the traditional manner to enroll. Some schools allow for children that want to be challenged with an AP load the opportunity without the usual requirements. My opinion is that American schools perform so poorly on an international level that any attempt to measure which schools really challenge kids is a good thing. Standards of American education have become so low and we still pat ourselves on the back when we reach the low bar that is set. We feel good about good districts and American children are less prepared to compete internationally.

Now that we know that the list will be updated to include other schools in the area, let's see how great this ranking will become now.

Once again - the list discusses the top 1300 schools with the most percentage of students taking the AP test. Students cannot TAKE the AP test without being in an AP CLASS. They cannot be in an AP CLASS if they are not prepared to take such an ADVANCED CLASS. They cannot take an ADVANCED CLASS unless their teachers in elementary, middle and beginning of high school prepare them for their classes. So...fork out your money - your child will not be able to take the test until they meet the criteria. The study measures how many students meet those criteria.

That's it - once again.

"Survey says Waubonsie one of nation's top schools"

But before you go singing any praise, be sure to read the fine print and make sure you understand what was actually "studied".

So next year we all chip in and pay for every single one of the 12th graders at WV to take the test and then we will come out number one in the US? Then we can say golly gee boys and girls because you all took the test WV is now the number one school in the nation? It is as simple as that and we are supposed to be proud of something in terms of this so called study?

Excuse me while I go throw up...

Anonymous @9:36 AM

Amen to your comments. WVHS students, staff, and parents, should be proud.

Students must pay for the AP test. It is completely voluntary. Nowhere does it talk about the results of the test - that's not what is being measured.

What is being measured is that many more students at Waubonsie have completed higher level AP classes and have chosen to try and get college credit by taking (and paying for) the AP test. Those student numbers were greater than any of the other 3 Naperville schools.

That's it.

What it does measure is Waubonsie's staff and administration raising the bar and preparing their students for higher level classes, and encouraging those same students to take AP tests for college credit.

That's it.

Congratulations to WVHS students and staff ...
You should be proud!
(Just as I am sure that North, Central, and NVHS have other rankings/surveys/awards they are proud of.)

I am embarrassed by the small-mindedness of the Sun Editorial. I didn't see any criticism of list criteria for any "best city" lists that Naperville appeared in, just rampant praise about what a great town this is. But when it's something commendable about Waubonsie Valley High School, the negativity comes out. Shame on you. Next time publish the facts and keep your small-minded editorials to yourselves.

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

National "studies" are nice, but don't begin to capture the reality that kids experience on the ground. If we are so concerned with quality, why is this the first year that the top 5% of graduating seniors weren't recognized at commencement? Apparently next year, we won't even have a valedictorian and salutatorian and the only student speaker at graduation ceremonies will be the class president. Another victory for popularity contests.

Lauding our test scores doesn't count for much if the tests themselves have been dumbed down so more will do well. (I'd love to see how a randomly selected sample of today's juniors would do on an ACT test from 1980.) For subjects that have a defined order of classes, like foreign language and math, many of the students responsible for our high scores are skipping over classes because they are too easy.

Anonymous

I think this statement of yours really "tells the tale";

everything I have posted is substantiated elsewhere. Blame yourself if you don't know where to look for the answers.

Translation; I'm pulling all of this out of my a** and couldn't substantiate my claims if my life depended on it.

Yup, you apparently want us to believe you know more than a Standard and Poor's data research organization,among others, who established the criteria, compiled the data, and conducted the various studies, and, based on your own "research" that you are unwilling to share with readers here, but is "substantiated elsewhere", the findings by these said experts who do this for a living are incorrect, and, or, invalid.

Do you really expect readers to accept the truthfulness of your statements/opinions on faith alone? Why, because you said so? Are you really telling us that you are more knowledgeable on this subject than the many people who work for the various organizations that produced all these different studies?

Sure, everyone is gonna buy that......

It is great to Waubonsie Valley on this list. A big shout out to the teachers, administration, and students for a job well done.

And for those of you criticizing the nature of the poll, that it was only done on the basis of AP testing and programs, let me tell you something. The national press has the right to come up with any criteria that they want to in making a poll such as this, and if you don't like the criteria, why don't you make your own poll? This is a matter of AP PROGRAMS, not whether you think your school is better than Waubonsie. You have every right to make up your own criteria and hold your own little popularity contest on who's the best area school. But don't bash the national media for choosing criteria that you don't agree with.

It seems to me that if any of the other three area high schools was alone on this list, no one (including the eminent editorial staff) would have seen fit to question or minimize that feat. Why is Waubonsie treated differently?

Response from Naperville Sun editors:

Today's editorial praised Waubonsie for the achievement, and yesterday's news story reported the ranking in a straight-forward manner. The editorial didn't diminish the Waubonsie ranking and if it was any other of the four high schools serving Naperville the writer would have made the same point: all of Naperville's public high schools are excellent, and one survey using one set of criteria shouldn't exclude other surveys that use different criteria to determine excellence.

Thom Higgins,

Nice try, but I'm not going to do your work for you. You are on your own for that. I did my own research and didn't post anything false, misleading, or untruthful. So go ahead and whine all you want... everything I have posted is substantiated elsewhere. Blame yourself if you don't know where to look for the answers.

If you had ACTUALLY taken the time to go to the SES website you would know full well, as I do, that SES clearly states that these are "observations". Their actual words, not mine. SES also clearly states on their web sites the various data sources they relied upon. No red herrings and I'm not making any of this up. I fairly quoted my source in my earlier post and anyone can go check it our for themselves.

Let's not forget that the 2008 "list" is based upon the 2005-2006 school year and students who were in 12th grade and who are now finishing their sophomore year in college. The kids actually attending these schools today would have been in 7th, 8th, Freshman, and Sophomore years in 2005-2006 and their ability to perform either better or worse on the criteria is not reflected in their schools current "standings".

Also interesting to note is that 10 states were completely omitted from the study, as were Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, Northern Mariana Islands, Virgin Islands, and all of the eleven other territories that make up our nation. Over 9 percent of the high schools in our nation were not even included in the study. It is anyones guess as to how well or how poorly any one of them would have performed had 100 percent of the high schools in our nation been included in this study.

This is just one more example of a flaw with this study, there are others. A reasonable person would understand by now that it is far, far from being a scientifically or statistically valid study. It is a feel good news piece. Nothing more. Nothing less.

No slamming, no bashing, and no personal opinion either. I'm just repeating what can readily be found in many other sources.

Anonymous @ 8:56Am

More slamming the data and requests for accountability by you. Fine, since all the these nationally recognized studies fail to live up to your personal standards, please tell the readers what statistics and criterion you would consider to be a valid reflection of our schools academic performance.

Also please show us examples regarding your claim below;

"They inconsistently use a half dozen different data sources reported from all the states. The use and legal definition of the data being collected from all of the states varies widely."

Specifically how is the data used ""inconsistently", and how does the "use and legal description of the data" vary wildly?

Lastly, I have to say that my impression is that you are not at all interested in an honest conversation. For you to try to claim that the criterion used by USN&WR are only "observations" and to then further attempt to confuse the issue by bringing up the red herring of differing years and periods, is a willful misstating the studies actual criterion and process, and a dishonest attempt to discredit the study, as anyone who bothers to read the studies criterion here will see.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/high-schools/2007/11/29/the-ranking-formula.html

We are all entitled to our opinion, but we are not entitled to attempt to mislead people by hoping they are too busy to read the supporting documents. Shame on you sir.

Not to take anything away from WVHS, but this study is misguided. It ONLY takes into account the number of students who take advanced tests. It in no way measures their scores on the test or the academic record of a school. For instance a small rural school with 100 graduating students can mandate that each student takes an AP test in order to graduate. The average score on the test could be a 1 or 2. A larger school with 700 graduating students could have 400 students take an AP test and have an average score of 3 or 4 and the smaller school would rank higher then then the large school. The small schools score would be 1.0 and the large schools score would be .571. Again I believe that all schools that serve Naperville are superior to many schools in the nation, so please don't take this as saying WVHS is a bad school.

Seems to me that those parents that don't want to attend WVHS that make up the NSFOC and are mostly from the TG and WE neighborhoods can now rest easy.

Your property values won't go down and your kids will get just as good education as they would at any other D203 or D204 school. Now you have a bullet point to put on your real estate sell sheet when you go to sell your house because you can't stand the thought of going to WVHS.

Let's be honest NSFOC it was always about boundaries and not wanting to attend WVHS. I love irony!!!

Thom Higgins,

Your words, not mine, that I do not like the results of the study. What I don't like or appreciate is someone else assuming what I do or do not like.

Asking for accountability related to the educational performance demonstrated by our kids in our schools is bashing the school district? Af far as popular sport there are also a lot of relentless, brainless cheerleaders in Naperville who are totally clueless and blind to a lot that is really going on in our schools. I sincerely hope you aren't one of them.

The fact remains that if we focus just on the USN&WR and SES and dig a little it becomes readily apparent that even SES is wishy-washy in that they claim the results of their own number crunching are just "observations". They inconsistently use a half dozen different data sources reported from all the states. The use and legal definition of the data being collected from all of the states varies widely. Calendar years, school year, fiscal years, covered periods, reporting periods, beginning of year, end of year... just trying to find consistency among how each class year is measured and defined is all over the place. And this is but just one example.

While you seem comfortably satisfied in relying on such flawed and inconsistent data in terms of your children's education I guess it would be appropriate to aks if you personally needed to receive medication, say for cancer treatment, would you also accept a medical study that was conducted this poorly?

To Anonymous @ 10:50PM

Ah yes, the old when you don't like the results of the study, criticize the study. We have multiple studies here, based on different criterion, and at least for D203, which was where our primary interest lies, all of the results show that D203 not only provides an excellent education, and they do it for less money than their peers.

Now, as far as you not trusting the product of "reporters", it is apparent you didn't bother to look at the methodology of the USN&WR study. Here it is;

The 2008 U.S.News & World Report America's Best High Schools methodology, developed by School Evaluation Services, a K-12 education data research business run by Standard & Poor's, is based on the key principles that a great high school must serve all its students well, not just those who are bound for college, and that it must be able to produce measurable academic outcomes that show the school is successfully educating its student body across a range of performance indicators.

I guess a research business run by Standard and Poor's isn't good enough for you. There is much more regarding the criterion at this link;

http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/high-schools/2007/11/29/the-ranking-formula.html

The Herald study is simply a massive compilation of financial data combined with ACT College Readiness test results for specific districts. I have a hard time questioning the validity of their numbers. BTW if you look at their data, while 203 comes out looking great, and 204 is up there too, if you look at the surrounding school districts, many that spend more than us and have comparable socioeconomic characteristics, they all have lower test results. You can find similar statistic's in the Illinois State Board of Election Report Cards.

Reading your post it seems you are only interested in bashing the school districts. It's a popular sport with some I know, but fortunately the overwhelming majority of people see it for what it is.

Congratulations WVHS. We're proud of all our schools, the teachers and the parents that contribute to these results.

Thom Higgins,

So, now we are to believe US News and World Report? Or just want to believe USN&WR because they rated NN and NC really high and why shouldn't we want to hear that?

Either one or both of these stories must be flawed if one rated two schools in the top 3 percent and the other story didn't even list them in the top 1300. Something is seriously wrong with somebodys data or method of calculation.

So go ahead and pick your favorite story and believe what you choose to believe.

The bottom line is the educators and the superintendents have their fingers and hands in this constantly all the way up to their armpits. It is such a murky, meddled with mess that there simply is no long term reliable data... which is exactly how they want it. They do not want us to be able to consistently and objectively evaluate our school or our district performance over time against anyone else because they are scared as hell of what it will show. Multiply that fear by every other principal and superintendent across the state and the result is a bunch of mostly meaningless numbers that people like you waste your time trying to analyze to come to a favorable conclusion that your money is being well spent and that your kids are getting a decent education.

The time you wasted doing all of this analysis would have been better spent helping your kids with their homework. I'm not about to put my faith and trust in any ratings produced by a reporter. Ratings produced through scientific research, yes would be meaningful but we have enormous work ahead of us eliminating all of the variability that currently exists both intrastate and interstate. There isn't even anything on the horizon that will truly provide us with the truthful and objective answers we should all need and want.

Until something is developed, be comfortable in your belief that your kids are getting a pretty average education in Naperville schools.

To Anonymous poster @2:38PM

Sorry but I have to disagree with you. I can't speak in great detail for D204 but based on an extensive analysis we did of various studies here is what we found about both districts;

According to US News & World Report, Naperville Central and Naperville North high schools rank in the top three percent of high schools nationwide. The magazine recently published its "Best High Schools" edition, awarding a gold medals to one hundred schools across the country, a silver medal to 405 schools, and a bronze medal to 1086 schools. 204 did not have a school listed here.

In a study done by the Daily Herald across the thirty-four Chicagoland high school districts that were compared, this is what you will find:

Only two had more than fifty percent of students meeting college readiness benchmarks in all four subjects: Stevenson District 125 and Naperville Unit District 203. Stevenson had a composite score of 53%, at a cost of $134,000 for 11 years of education and NCUSD 203’s composite score was 51% with a cost of $101,000—25% lower than the top school. D204 came in 6th in performance and 28th lowest in cost.

Averaging the data for the next ten highest performing districts, we found that NCUSD 203’s costs were 15% lower and their test score 42% higher than the group average. NCUSD 203's costs were also lower than the state average of $105,970, as was D204's. Considering that we are in one of the most expensive areas in Illinois, this is quite a feat.

Only 11 of the combined Elementary/High School Districts had a lower combined cost than NCUSD 203 and their average composite ACT readiness score of 20.5% was 60% lower than Naperville CUSD 203.

We also did analysis of the USN&WR, Chicago Magazine studies, and the Illinois State report cards. All of these different studies use different criterion. We have full analysis and links to all the different studies here. You can find the D204 information in the original studies.

http://www.qualityeducation203.org/20080205referendum/costperformance_mediasurvey.shtml

to anonymous 5/20 2:38

"In my over 20 years in Naperville I haven't seen any compelling proof that has led me to believe that our schools are any better than AVERAGE other than we pay a lot more than average. Our kids could get an equal education at just about any other school or school district. SD203 and SD204 despite the relentless PR really do nothing more than provide our kids with a mediocre education experience."

I've been in Naperville 13 years and totally agree with you. No one wants to hear this, but it is so true. My spouse and myself always say Naperville is a mirage. The closer you take a look, you realize that there is nothing there. Its all hype.

As a high school teacher who's been around the block a few times, I taught at one of Newsweek's top schools back east. They selected 4 of our county's 23 high schools for this "honor." AS a mattter of fact, all 4 were in the top 100. All 23 high schools had relatively the same programs, same quality of teachers (we were asked to rotate among the schools every so often), etc... "We" really didn't pay much attention to this, and quite frankly, our students had more important things on their minds. "We" knew that Newsweek punched in a lot of numbers and figures to reach their conclusions, and sometimes even "we" wondered "If they only knew..."

"The Challenge Index was designed in part to undermine the view that schools with lots of rich kids are good, and schools with lots of poor kids are bad. I love pointing to the many schools on the NEWSWEEK list that are full of low-income students, and often rank higher than much more affluent rivals" Jay Matthews

http://www.newsweek.com/id/137415/page/1

"Many of us know what a great school it is. We didn't need a magazine article to tell us."

Glad to see you are a "believer". What parent, what taxpayer would not WANT to believe their kids go to the best school, that they are getting REAL value for their tax dollars?

Any of us can go to dozens of small, rural towns across central and southern Illinois and we can talk to the people in any of these towns and we will find out that they also "believe" that their kids are getting as good as if not better education than anything delivered by NC, NN, NV, or WV. Believe that because it is true.

In my over 20 years in Naperville I haven't seen any compelling proof that has led me to believe that our schools are any better than AVERAGE other than we pay a lot more than average. Our kids could get an equal education at just about any other school or school district. SD203 and SD204 despite the relentless PR really do nothing more than provide our kids with a mediocre education experience.

Now, granted, we all wish in our heart of hearts that we really did have something special with our Naperville schools, but there is nothing to substantiate that desire other than a willingness to "believe".

While the 2008 report is not currently available; the following link is to a report I would use to get real data on any school in Illinois.

http://iirc.niu.edu/default.aspx?tsource=home

By Congrats WV on May 20, 2008 12:33 PM

I can't believe adults in this community are fighting over this. What difference does it make that WV made it and others didn't. Don't recall when NN, NC or NV made the list that their was any question on the ranking. Those who question it show their true colors in regards to WV.

For all you Warrior students out there there, kudos to you. Many of us know what a great school it is. We didn't need a magazine article to tell us.
_____________________________________

Thank you Congrats, I was about to make the same point before I saw your post. You summed it up for me.

I can't believe adults in this community are fighting over this. What difference does it make that WV made it and others didn't. Don't recall when NN, NC or NV made the list that their was any question on the ranking. Those who question it show their true colors in regards to WV.

For all you Warrior students out there there, kudos to you. Many of us know what a great school it is. We didn't need a magazine article to tell us.

Anon 9:57,

Yes, I know how AP tests work, but you're missing my point. The ranking would be more relevant if it measured performance (in any form), instead of just population ratios. How about if they changed the measurement to "students scoring 3 or more on AP tests as a percentage student population"? That would be a more useful figure.

Mark,

Suggesting someone "pop a xanax" would be encouraging someone to violate a federal law and you should know better... unless of course you are popping xanax yourself which might help explain your rather cavalier attitude toward these the true value of these "rankings".

If and only if this list can actually be shown to contain some legitimate and objective scientific basis would there be any reason for pride on the part of the WV community. Right now it is just another list published by just another magazine with the sole purpose and motivation being to sell more magazines.

I'm sure every family who has a kid in any one of these listed schools, especially the 2008 graduating class are snapping copies up as memorabilia. Whoop die do!

For anyone caring to look beneath the surface on the issue of scientific and objective school rankings will agree that these printed pages would be better suited as toilet paper.

I want to correct those posters calling WVHS a naperville school. WVHS is in aurora and mostly comprised of kids from Aurora...at least for a little while longer :)

Oswego Lurker,

There are different definitions of passing an AP test. Some colleges require a 5 to gain credit at their institution and some others require only a 4 or a 3 (on a scale of 1 - 5). The point of the rankings is the number of students that are even qualified to take the test. You have to be taking AP classes to take the tests.

I think it's very interesting this statistic is based on the number of AP tests TAKEN, and not AP tests PASSED. I think the rankings would change remarkably if they actually measured the students performance on the tests, not just the fact that they showed up to take it.

Excuse me, Mr./Ms. Anonymous at 10:54.

You might want to pop a xanax and calm down a bit. While WV should be rightly proud of its inclusion on the list, this is hardly a scientific measure. As you might see from past lists, it varies from year to year.

Don't use this as an excuse to bash the School Boards of either 204 or 203. While our taxes are certainly not low, they are not out of line considering the extraordinary education that our children get from these great schools.

And by the way, watch your prejudices: The fact that you can't believe that six Chicago schools are on the list shows that you buy into media reports. There are some great public schools in Chicago.

This is an interesting attention grabber, but it lacks details. On what basis was WVHS ranked so high? Was it strictly academic scores? Maybe the school board should investigate to see what they did right in WV's case and spread the wealth. Could it be WV has more experienced teachers? Is the same curriculum taught at both schools? I say collaborate and share the wealth among all students in the district.

1079 Is there even one single taxpayer who is happy with these results considering what we pay in taxes for the finest teachers and facilities that our money can buy? Give me a break!

1079 and the only Naperville area school on the list? What the hell is going on at NV and NN and NC? Not even on the list and WV was bested by 26 other Illinois schools to boot including no less than 6 CHICAGO PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOLS? Give me a break!

Thank goodness the list only included public schools. If all the private schools had also been listed one can only wonder how far further down WV would have been rated.

1079 and WV couldn't even beat out Vernon Hills, Libertyville, Buffalo Grove, Homewood Floosmoor, Prospect, or Hoffman Estates. Yet a bunch of idiot Napervillians are running around with their thumbs under their suspenders proud as peacocks. Give me a break!

Either these lists are a pile of rubbish and not worth the paper they are printed on, in which case all of the bragging becomes pointless, or the school board better damn well be adding some wording into the superintendent and principal contracts related to performance. If they can't do any better than this with all the extravagance we lavish upon them then it is time to show them to the door. Give me a break!

Congrats and kudos WVHS!!!

PS, I hear rumors that US News & World Report is countering with the top 1300 High School sports stadiums. Unfortunately no D203 or D204 schools made it (I wonder why? lol) The list had an abnormally large representation from California, Texas, Ohio, WASHINGTON, Pennsylvania. There may be a subtle hint in there somewhere.... tear out the rusted metal seats. you never know, many sports are cash cows at the College level, might be another revenue stream waiting to be unearthed for District use!!! Invest a little, reap alot of potential benefits (and not just money).

That *amn school board. They are at it again. They must have rigged the voting :)

Congratulations IPSD, teachers, students and parents of Waubonsie students.

By Anonymous on May 19, 2008 1:45 PM
and yet WVHS is not good enough for Tall Grass...go figure.

____________

Another stupid comment. Have still not heard one TG resident claim that WVHS is a bad school (it is in fact obviously a great school that we probably did not need these ratings to confirm).

The only folks who have suggested WVHS is a bad school are those who have globally labeled TG as elitists and/or racists (and of course Dr. D by raising the entitlement comment in the first place, suggesting that WVHS is somehow perceived to be inferior to NVHS).

Way to go WVHS!! Thanks for representing us! I am a NV parent and am just as proud of your school! WVHS is an outstanding school, I am happy it is finally getting the recognition it deserves!

I think all the schools in 203/204 or excellent. WVHS stands out this year -- hearty congrats are in order.

By Anonymous on May 19, 2008 1:45 PM
and yet WVHS is not good enough for Tall Grass...go figure.

____________

People like you anonymous 1:45 pm that keep stirring the pot have no idea what you are talking about.

I applaud Waubonsie for the well deserved honor, it's a great school. At the same time I can't help but wonder if maybe Neuqua was left off the list due to some type of error. It doesn't make sense that Neuqua would go from being #607 last year to falling out of the top 1,300 this year.

By Anonymous on May 19, 2008 2:35 PM

"Does anyone really believe Newsweek Officials can monitor every school in the country and rank them objectively or subjectively...give me a break...lol...?"
_________________________________

Do I detect sour grapes? How 'bout envy?

OK, OK, I'll throw you a bone. Neuqua is just as good as Waubonsie.

Feel better?

Don't forget WV's Grammy! I should say Grammy's plural!!!!!

According to Newsweek, public schools were ranked according to a ratio devised by Jay Matthews: the number of Advanced Placement, Intl. Baccalaureate and/or Cambridge tests taken by all students at a school in 2007 divided by the number of graduating seniors. All of the schools on the list are in the top 5 percent of public schools measured this way.

This is a measure of the graduating senior class. And no, many of the same schools are on the list year after year. Waubonsie was also on the list in 2007. I guess its hard for some to believe that WV could be as good or even better than NV. Lets face it, we have a good district no matter what school you go to.

I doubt Newsweek or any organization can truly evaluate and compare the hundreds of thousands of schools in our country.

As far as I am concerned they shot darts.

No way can Neuqua go form 607 to not making the list...lol...in one lousy year!!! Did all the teachers quit? Did all the kids boycott school? Did the kids all suddenly start smoking pot with Nick Birkett?

Their survey is fabricated and they probably rank 1300 different schools each year to make everyone happy and increase their readership.

Sun Officials can not even monitor and control one City Hall in Naperville less than a mile away from their headquarters. Does anyone really believe Newsweek Officials can monitor every school in the country and rank them objectively or subjectively...give me a break...lol...?

If Newsweek can do all this and I am wrong, then Sun Officials are doing a very poor job in that they can not even monitor one out-of-control City Hall!

Also - about WVHS - just another indication of how positive a school this is

NSCAA/adidas® High School National and Regional Rankings

High School Spring Rankings Girls

National 4th Poll - April 29, 2008

Rank School
1 Parkview (Lilburn, Ga.)
2 TC Roberson (Asheville, N.C.)
3 Central Dauphin (Harrisburg, Pa.)
4 Waubonsie Valley (Aurora, Ill.)
5 Grandview (Aurora, Colo.)

State Champs 2007, undefeated in 31 games (30-0-1)

I think all of our Naperville/Aurora schools are great. Go Waubonsie! Thanks for representing us so well!!!!!

WVHS was not good enough for Brookdale in 2006...go figure.

and yet WVHS is not good enough for Tall Grass...go figure.