By Another Anonymous Resident on June 20, 2008 8:19 AM

am surprised an NPD cop gets a higher starting salary than an attorney who completed 4 years of graduate work. An attorny gets no pension.
When was the last time you were in the Job market? And just because the are Thousands of you dead beat lawyers festing on poor people everyday does not make you a better person. Besides you chose your profession.

A cop get a pension equal to 75% of his highest salary. A cop gets to retire at 51 and get this nice pension. A cop gets free health insurance while working and during retirement.
Cops only get a pension of 75% after working 30Yrs. Do the math to get that. Also they do not get helath care when they leave Naperville.

Most MBAs unless from Harvard or Stanford also make much less than a Naperville Police Officer.
Naperville has a very highly educated forse. And some do have MBA's

The leadership in our police dept. can not even manage its pension fund. Despite taxpayer contributions of nearly 19%, the fund is 27 million underfunded.
Maybe you should recheck your math! 27 Million where did you get that number. Also do you give up 9.5% of your check to contribute to your pention.

We are not getting the best money can buy for our dear cops! We are overpaying our cops. Aurora cops who trully risk their lives daily get paid 16k less than Naperville cops.
While the Aurora cops are on probation, then they make 30K a year more than our guys when the max out in 4 years, ours are 7

Let us not worry so much about former Police Captain Marshall's pension since he is also collecting a full salary. He should forfeit his pension that he began collecting at mostly taxpayer expense while being gainfully employed by these same Naperville Taxpayers.

So like when you get vested at a company after 3-5 years and get a check while working for someone else you send it back right?

Like I said get a grip!
By the way I am not a fan of the cops in this town, but when I bring up a point I have the facts

Caroline,

You are making the mistake of thinking I am advocating the city do what I say. I am not the one advocating or insisting on change or even panicking like many others do on this blog thinking the sky is falling and the world is coming to an end. There's a budget problem, it's just money and it's fixable and it does not require throwing out the baby with the bathwater to do it. Retirement funds are the problem. That's the area that should be targeted for change. Start monkeying with salaries too and I think you are biting off more than you can chew and are setting yourself up for push back to your ideas.

Some people park their nest-egg money in things that don't lose value. I'm sure some thought me a fool to be in a low single digit money market account for retirement but I don't have to ask the rhetorical question of who was the more foolish the past decade. As I said, it's doing just fine, thank you for your 'concern' once again.

It's interesting still that you assume to know what I have and have not done in life. Is there some reason you like to make things up about people you don't know and then attempt to attack those fabrications you just spewed forth? If you ever wondered about what Ken was talking about with regards to personal attacks then re-read your own posts on this thread. They are a classic example.

Instead of wasting your time putting forth falsehoods about people then attacking them on a blog how about you get out from behind the keyboard and go get your signatures and get something on the ballot. You will be more effective actually working TOWARDS what you say you want to accomplish. Sitting here pretending to know what people have done in their lives (and being wrong to boot) will not accomplish it.

Caroline on July 3, 2008 9:45 AM

The Napergate Network sent an e-mail last night that stated not one letter has been censored by you or Mr. Jim Lynch in over 2 months that any Napergatian wrote

_______________

Hi Caroline,

Since I'm not part of this network did they ever send a note out to ask the Napergatians to frequent the store owners on Bailey road that have lost so much business because of the bridge rework? I seem to recall that your "friend" Joe has been going to this mall- no word on any others?

Also, can you please cut and paste the network letter into this forum? Thanks in advance

Joe,

What you are suggesting really is much worse. Aurora just pays 10% of matching funds and is done with it. Somehow they manage to pay their pensions due to self-managing.

What you are suggesting is 20k more or a 33% increase in salary. Plus you are suggesting 5% more for matching funds for an IRA. Thus you want us to give the police 38% more. I believe they are getting a little under 19% in matching funds. That would double what they are currently receiving. The firemen are the ones that are getting 21.16%.

What you don't understand Joe, is that the 19% from us and the 9.91% from the police officers are suppose to pay for the pensions of the police and we are not suppose to pay additional money for their pensions after they retire. This money is suppose to pay for them. But because who ever is managing their money, screwed up real bad, we have to constantly subsidize them to the tune of $51.5 million deficits.

By suggesting we give them 38% of their salaries, instead of the 19% matching funds they are getting for their pensions which already is double what Aurora gives, you are suggesting quadrupling payments to them.

It does not matter which line it is put on Joe. It will start costing us taxpayers 4 times as much instead of 2 times as much with your proposal. The pension is suppose to come out of the matching funds we pay. We are not suppose to pay for them when they retire again. Unfortunately due to SCREW-UPS we are. We should be demanding they get their act together instead of offering them 4 times the equivelency in another manner. How could you make such an unaffordable proposal, Joe?

If the Napergate Man or someone else got a petition signed, referendum passed, and forced us into State Rule where we would be limited to increases of the lower of the CPI INDEX or 5% for a cap, we would be in BIG BIG TROUBLE!!! That really is not far fetched or an impossibility. Many towns have done it. And if the city starts special referendums to help the police and firemen with their SCREW-UPS, I doubt the referendums would pass by a majority vote. The taxpayers are stretched to the max because of gas and food.

And yesterday the stock market entered BEAR TERRITORY. That means it is 20% down. Most CNBC analysts are saying we are going 30% down. Don't try to tell me you are up in this bear market Joe, because if you did, I would not believe you, unless you were out of STOCKS. Even powerful Walgreens is down 33% off its peak.

This sad scenario means police and fire pension funds along with the rest of us are really in big trouble again like in 2000-2002. But under the BULLSH*T our city council and state legilature agreed to the police and fire unions can come back to the taxpayers for replinishment of this 30% stock market annihaltion. Can you believe that, Joe! They are suppose to be making 7% to make this work and they are losing 30%. That is a new 37% pension deficit in addition to the 51.5 million existing one. Where the h*ll does this all end! And do you really think the taxpayers who are being devastated also in the stock market besides gas, food, and real estate can afford this money, Joe!

I don't think your proposal will sit well with taxpayers. I think you have a hard time with math concepts. You had a very hard time computing your own real estate tax bill, Joe, if you recall.

Why don't you just stick with your Mother Theresa duties? You seem like a wealthy man who is overly generous and immune from major losses in the stock market. But you can bankrupt the town with your over generosity. I know that is not your intention, but that is what your plan does.

You don't seem capable of running a business or a city. A charity I believe you could run since all you have to do is give the money away. You would be real good at doing that, Joe! I believe you would be honest and not give yourself a big salary, while disposing of charity funds. Let us hope you don't call the Naperville Police to work at your charities and give them double time and a half for working 4th of July! Remember your generosity was meant for the poor and needy....not the well to do police who are protected for life whether it rains or shines...unless the Napergate or someone gets us to State Rule of which the consequence may be BANKRUPTCY and FORECLOSUE of the City of Naperville. Where is Donald Trump to pick the city up for 10 cents on the dollars and hopefully fix it for us. We may need a few casinos on the West Branch of the Dupage River to get on our feet again!

Have a good day Joe? I think since this thread is off the Main Page we are pretty much talking to each other now. I suggest we end our debate and simply agree to disagree.

Let us not be like Dan D. and Thom Higgins and go on forever! Host Ted is a busy man and there should be a limit as to how much we throw on this blog site for him to read.

I wish you a nice day, Joe! I am going to enjoy the weather and kids. I hope you do, too! Thanks for the exchange but I must end it!

__________________________________________________________________

By the way Host Ted, I just wanted to state that I am proud of you for publishing all letters in the last 2 months. The Napergate Network sent an e-mail last night that stated not one letter has been censored by you or Mr. Jim Lynch in over 2 months that any Napergatian wrote. It actually complemented your site as being more than fair. We really appreciate your forum that now is truly one of free speech and expression! That is the way it should be! Great job, Host Ted! Keep up the excellent work! And say hi to Mr. Lynch and tell him we all miss him! We went through some rough times with him but it all ended very happily!!!

Caroline,

I posted a hypothetical IF on the 80K salary. In what I put forth, it is not matching funds and it's not worse because THEY DO NOT DRAW MONEY AWAY FROM TAXPAYERS ONCE THEY ARE DONE WORKING, unlike a pension. You left that part out. They get NOTHING from the tax payers year after year if they are no longer active duty and on the payroll.

You can also just keep them at 60K and call it a nice win too with no bump in pay. I'm perfectly fine with that too. I disagree with you on starting them with less money. A happy employee is a good employee; that's more true in the real world overall. I've rarely heard that people who get cuts in pay actually end up being more productive or better off. I have witnessed many want to 'stick it to their employer' though when the pay and benefits promised to them do not come to fruition after they've held up their end of the bargain. This is why I say we as a city should be duty and word bound to pay out what we said we would but I am open to the idea of closing the gate and not letting any new people into the party.

As for myself and the bubble, I obviously had that much play stock to lose and I'm doing just fine now today without the bitterness of trying to screw others out their earned money. My 'retirement' is also just fine and was barely effected because I was not heavily invested in telcom stocks. I appreciate your 'concern' for what it is though but believe me, it's not a bad memory for me. In fact, it taught me early enough in life about what not to do later in life in the market when there would be little to no time to compensate or correct for it so I've always looked at it as a good learning experience.

As for comparing one profession to another, don't always count on that. I've hired young whipper snappers without a degree starting at over 80K before. It all depends on the job they are hired to do, their capabilities and desires. Comparing police officers to attorneys is silly as would be comparing programmers without a slip of paper to an attorney that spent over 6 figures on their slip of paper.

Caroline,

Unfortunately you missed the part of me pointing out that the pensions are the problem and not the starting salaries. In context I said you could bump them to 80K and do the traditional 401K style retirement for them with matching funds comparable to the private sector and you would not have had this deficit problem.

=================================================================

Joe,

I did not miss the point about you wanting to eliminate pensions.

That is why I said,

" Even WITHOUT pensions no kid out of college should be given an 80k starting salary before he or she even proves themselves."

I tried to make myself very clear by inserting "without pensions" in the same sentence about the 80k starting salary you suggested. I am sorry that went over your head. I could not have been more clear.

It sounds like you want to move the deficit from one line on the property tax bill to another. That would still have the same net effect, Joe! Actually worse, Joe! Giving them a 20k increase is the equivalent of giving them 33% in matching funds. We are only giving them 21% right now. So you are trying to be clever and screw the taxpayers further. Are you sure you are not the Joe who is the President of the Fraternal Order of Police? Just because he or you have been successful screwing the Naperville City Council, Ted's Citizen Journalists are not as easy to SCREW! Most of us have a little Napergate Man in us!

And, Joe, of course salary is also a problem. The City of Naperville line on my real estate tax bill that includes salaries but not pension was up nearly 20%. That is 8 times the CPI INDEX which would have been allowed by State Rule. Giving the police and firemen a 20k raise each, would have made the increase on that line much higher than the 20% tax increase that we just experienced.

Unlike in Will County where I believe you live, in Dupage the county breaks the pension line separately from the other city expenses which include salaries.

Most taxpayers lost the majority of their money in the stock market even if they were diversified. My bank which has charts that showed all kinds of investment in DIVERSIFIED mutual funds, showed across the board losses of nearly 30% in both 2001 and 2002. I forgot what the losses were in 2000 but they were a little less unless you were strictly in tech. As you may recall, high tech stocks got slaughtered first in 2000 and the slaughter was no laughing matter.

I believe you told us you lost in excess of 2 million in the stock market, Joe. I think you have been moody lately. You give us information about yourself and then you tell us not to speak about you. We represent you carefully with your own statements, and then you tell us we misrepresent you.

I think mentioning the stock market brought back a bad memory for you, Joe. I am sorry, that was not my intention. And you want to release your frustration on me. I am not the one that lost your 2 million, you lost it yourself or maybe your Certified Financial Planner lost it for you. You need to take responsibility for your losses just as the police and firemen need to take responsibility for their losses. The City and State can not give them IMMUNITY! That is pretty much the situation we are in! They are immune to any losses as we plug the holes for them with taxpayer reimbursements for all their losses. It is ridiculous! I am glad Chicago wants to fix the mess. Maybe the next City Council in Naperville will see it fit to fix the mess.

I was very well diversified in over 100 stocks and I got beaten very badly. I don't think diversification helped in the stock market between the years 2000-2002. All the indexes including Dow, NASDAQ, S@P, and Russell were down in huge amounts. I believe the Dow even went down to the 7000 level after 911.

Maybe if one was in bonds or had bank CDs, they would have not been devastated. But not in the STOCK MARKET which is what I said. There is always an exception. The person who would have survived would not be one who was proportionally diversified as the indexes indicate he or she would have been clobbered. The person who could have made it would be in one or two stocks which were the exception to all rules.

Keep in mind, Joe, pensions were started, because government employees were paid lower than private sector employees. Since they are paid more now, there is no need for pension or an increase of salary by 33%. I really believe most Napervillians would not be for paying Naperville Cops a starting salary of 80k with or without a pension. That is a ridiculous amount to pay for a 21 year old college student with no experience. That is 20k more than a starting attorney with twice the education of a cop and much more difficulty since it involves graduate level studies.

I think you need to start thinking before you speak, Joe!

-------------------------------------------------------------------

PS. For the record I am for paying new Naperville Police 45k plus a 5% matching contribution to a 401k be it a traditional IRA or Roth IRA. I believe that is sufficient and is above the average for surrounding communities such as Aurora, Romeoville and Bolingbrook. Offering 80k as our starting salary would cause havoc in surrounding towns and make their police very unhappy. Let us not make things any worse, Joe! Let us be reasonable to everyone!

You have proven that you are a good Mother Theresa, Joe with your visits to the plaza on Bailey Rd. But you have also proven you would make a bad City Manager and a terrible Certified Financial Planner. If people who were properly diversified made money in the stock market bubble of 2000-2002 while you lost 2 million dollars, you sure did not know what you were doing! MAYBE IT WOULD BE WISE IF YOU WOULD STOP ADVISING US HOW TO TAKE THIS CITY TO BANKRUPTCY AND FORECLOSURE!!!

Caroline,

Unfortunately you missed the part of me pointing out that the pensions are the problem and not the starting salaries. In context I said you could bump them to 80K and do the traditional 401K style retirement for them with matching funds comparable to the private sector and you would not have had this deficit problem.

Please stop trying to speak for others, especially when you misrepresent what they say. Speak only for yourself.

Not everyone lost their retirement in the stock market. Some were diversified enough and came out just fine. I'm sorry if you didn't.

By John Q. Public on July 1, 2008 11:47 PM

We still need to account for another 500%, or so, though (or was it 700%?). I'm not in a position to be able to explain this increase. My suspicion, though, is that it is largely the cumulative effect of the city presumably underfunding the pensions when the stock market was booming in the 90's coupled with the extreme correction we experienced in the early part of this decade.

-JQP

--------------------------------------------------------------------

JQP,
I am not really sure if this is a result of underfunding or overpensionalizing. I understand that police contribute 9.91% of their paychecks. Also, taxpayers tacked on 21.16% in matching funds last year. According to the Municipal Report most annual contributions by various cities have been or should have been in the 20% range give or take a little here and there.

The problem seems to be that 31% of police and taxpayer combined contributions based on gross pay can not pay for 75% of police pension pay-outs based on the highest salary on the last day on the job. (Hopefully, Naperville does not bump final pay with promotions as most other towns do.) Of course, it could be possible if investments could return 30% or more per year and the funds were not seriously underfunded to the extent of 51 million dollars.

But return on investments in the stock market have been dismal since the turn of the century. Companies like GM are at 50 year lows. Countrywide and Washington Mutual are under 5 bucks after flying high for years.

In the private sector we lose with the stock market. It is painful. In the public sector the police and fire fund pension managers can lose all the pension money. If it does not work out they just come to the taxpayers and say our investments did not work but we still need our 75% pensions you promised us when we retire. The solution is to make the struggling taxpayers come up with the money after the taxpayer lost his/her own money in the stock market.

It just seems like an unfair racket that our City Council in their infinite wisdom agreed to. Aurora went to self-managed pensions funds after 2002 and threw the onus on the police and firemen. They also have a limit of 10% contributions. They are somehow surviving! How do they do it?

I feel bad for the police and firemen. We lost it all in the stock market and they should be ready to lose it all if they invest in the stock market. They had a choice of putting their money in FDIC insured banks and settling for 25-50% pensions. They wanted returns that would sustain 75% pensions based on their last day of employment. They gambled and lost. I don't understand why the taxpayers have to be the FDIC Insurance for the cops and firemen in town. Just seems so unfair!

Anyway, I do believe in going back to state rule and filing bankruptcy. Just like the taxpayers got burned by the stock market and accepted the devastating consequences, the police and firemen need to be bold and also accept their losses.

It just seems unjust that we have to worry about their retirement funds when ours were blasted away. We need to rebuild our own retirement funds before we can worry about theirs. If the city council made promises that they can not deliver on, I say jail them all and throw the keys away. The next city council will be much more cautious before promising 60k starting salaries that lead to such chaos.

Of course, Joe, in his infinite wisdom, wants to offer cops 80k starting salary. We need to offer them 40k and be in line with surrounding communities in order to have a chance for survival. Even without pensions no kid out of college should be given an 80k starting salary before he or she even proves themselves.

I guess, Joe, likes to give more money away than we can afford to give away. Maybe he should apply for the City Manager position and tell us how he plans to balance the budget by increasing starting salaries to 80k for police. Goodness gracious, Joe! Get real!!!

Mr. John Q. Public and Farmsteadman,

I am back at work this morning so I have to keep this brief.

But yes I did lose track using my manual calculator and stopped at 15 times instead of 17.

I agree the correct number is 270% and not 217%

I must say this is what I love about this blog site. We can make mistakes and be corrected. Obviously, I was posting a lot on my day off and I had so much to say. I was not reviewing my work carefully.

I actually did it twice counting on my fingers 17 but obviously lost track twice. I apologize for any confusion I may have caused and all the wasted time. A few more minutes and I could have had it right the first time.

But again that does not change the fact that we have a very serious problem. We still have 430%-630% in the police and fire departments unaccounted for in pension cost increases. Hopefully, our City Officials will make a public statement soon to clarify! Yes, I am being sarcastic. That would be transparency and transparency is forbidden in Naperville!

Must go! Need the rest of my lunch hour for lunch! Good to see so many bloggers interested in this pension problem! Hopefully, Host Ted can give us that delayed article in the print edition with comments form City Officials.

Host Ted,

How could these pension problems been going on for nearly 2 decades without us knowing about them?

I think it is time the Naperville Sun try to do a better job of keeping us informed. All we hear is how great everything in this town is.

When the Napegate Man said it ain't so, the Naperville Sun never backed him one time.

Now we find out we have been having serious problems that were not being reported by the Naperville Sun for many years.

Does Furstenau not call the Naperville Sun once in a while and discuss these problems such as high salary and pensions? If not why does the Naperville Sun not call him. He seems like someone who would have a lot of answers and willing to reveal them if only the Sun would care to ask!

I hope the Naperville Sun can get on top of this devastating situation.

Also many thanks to Blake and Marshall for bringing this pension disaster and our ratings by the Municipal League to the forefront.

Dear City Council Memebrs.

I wanted to come on and say I am dissappointed with your performance of the last decade.

Like everyone else, I have wondered why my taxes continued to escalate year after year despite the addition of so many businesses in town and all these so called McMansions. They should have improved our tax base and decreased not only the tax rate but net taxes to residential customers. More people and businesses are paying for the same expenses at City Hall and the Naperville Police Dept. The cost should be less per resident.

It does not cost more to run a wealthy town from a police perspective than a poor town. It may even cost more to police a poor town.

Yet we provide much more in taxes to our city from the sheer value of our homes being much higher than homes in poor neighborhoods.

And despite this, the town is in essence bankrupt! We are not healthy financially. We are 51 million in the red just on our police and fire pensions.

How could all this have happened especially with no tax cap limiting our tax increases!

If we had the state caps by rescinding home rule, we would be in foreclosure at this very moment. Let us wake up City Council Members!

To Naperville Sun Editors,

Isn't the Ribfest one of those events where we have Naperville Police Working OT and obtaining compensation from our 1% cultural sales tax fund through some kind of scam going through the charities themselves?

In my opinion, a good newspaper would report the news as it happens. Not 6 months later after the OT is already in the pockets of the police officers.

Now is the time to discuss this OT issue at charity events coming from a slush fund.

Maybe we can strike a guilt nerve with Police Chief David Dial. He has to have some kind of conscience. A man with any conscience would never charge charities OT while they are donating all their time, effort and money to help charitable causes and needy residents.

He should be up on the podium asking his police officers to donate some of their time. This would generate improved relations with the community. I bet if he asked, he would be suprised how many of his officers would step forward with donated time!

But to possibly pilfer charity and cultural funds in the form of Police OT just makes the Naperville Police Department look like a very greedy organization.

We pay them great....close to tops in the nation! We give them full health and life insurance! We give them pensions that are on the verge of bankrupting the town! They get 300k if killed in the line of duty by the Feds. An additional 300k if they get killed in the line of duty by State. In comparisons our soldiers in Iraq almost get nothing when they lose their lives fighting for our freedom. These police unions are obviously powerful and greedy!

We deserve better from our men and women in blue than to siphon every last buck this town has in its coffers!

I guess like any citizen these outrageous pension costs bother me.

I hope we can do something about them after the Naperville Sun does an article and wakes up the sleeping folks in Naperville.

Apparently the gas prices were not enough to wake them up.

Host Ted,

What makes the city of Naperville not respond to all these attacks on its competence? Does it not care about its reputation? Or are all these attacks credible?

Or do they not believe your blog site is effective and has 100,000 views per week! Do they not believe your site can have an impact on the next elections like those Napergate ads once did. You have never updated us Host Ted about those numbers from 6 months ago. I hope they are up but maybe they are down since you are not updating.

But really to get City Officials out of their offices and cubicles speaking and defending you need the assistance of the print edition of the Naperville Sun to bring some serious heat!

I am sensitive to the fact that your brother in law is a retired Lieutenant of the NPD! Could you recuse yourself and let one of your assistants run a story on these outrageous pension costs. If they get any worse, no one will be able to afford to live in Naperville.

Unfortunately, we have so many conflicts of interest in this town preventing us from operating like a big city. We have your situation, we have Tim West's situation with his wife in the Brestal Law Firm, we have Rosanova's situation with his son in the Brestal Law Firm, we have Wehrli's situation with his cousin a big developer in town and I am sure a few others.

What could we do to handle these conflicts of interest, Host Ted? They are truly conflicts of interest. It seems like while Mr. Jim Lynch was finally willing to look into the police dept, you are not quite ready because of your brother in law.

I totally understand! But don't you think your readers still deserve the watch dog duties we pay for with our subscriptions provided by one of your assistants!

Thanks for considering my request, Host Ted!

Let us give the residents what they want and get your subscriptions numbers up to 30k per year. Your brother in law is doing very well from what we can surmise. It is time you do well and get rewarded for your efforts. Without taking its watchdog duties seriously as the mother Chicago Sun-Times does, the Naperville Sun will remain stagnant.

As you recall some bloggers estimated the Naperville Sun was down 59% when factoring in growth while the average nationally was only down 13% during a specific period of time I can not recall.

I do believe this stagnation is a result of fear by Sun Officials breaking down barriers at City Hall!

Remember Host Ted, in the end you are only the messenger! City Officials performed poorly and got a failing grade from the Illinois Municipal League. You do have a duty to report this failing grade to residents in Naperville. If you do not report it, you will be perceived as covering-up for those in City Hall. No one wants that perception bestowed on them!

reply from ted:

You know what they say, you can choose your friends, but you can't choose your family. it's true that my oldest sister, Jo, married Mark Robbins in 1972 when I was 7 years old. I have 11 brothers and sisters, nearly as many in-laws, and too many nieces and nephews to count (and that's not counting my wife's side of the family), Jo and Mark moved to Minnesota --what's it been, 10 years now? 15 since Mark retired from the NPD? I don't know. I called my sister recently, she'd been hospitalized. Haven't spoken to Mark since I last visited them in Minnesota, what's it been, 5 years ago? Anyway, the notion that I'm somehow sympathetic to NPD because of my brother-in-law is ridiculous. I'm fair and impartial in my work. I've got a couple reporters working a story about teacher and city pensions. I hope we wrap up the report in the next couple weeks. No amount of urging by commenters on this forum is going to enable us to get it done any sooner. Staff cuts, vacations, Ribfest, etc. You have to understand: I'm down to a handful of reporters. They can't drop everything and work on one story full time for a month. Are you aware of what's happening in the newspaper industry? Advertising revenue is way down. Newsrooms are cutting staff some 20 percent. There's a lot of news in the community vying for coverage. Every day we discuss what's going on and what our available resources are and we prioritize and we decide what we're going to do. It's quite simple, really. But it's important for you to understand, we're down to like, 5 reporters. To cover the city, schools, parks, crime, courts, human-interest stories, neighborhoods, business, everything you see in the paper. We field many requests every day for coverage. Something about pensions was requested, and we're pursuing it. But it's just one of many, many issues and events going on in this town that we have to cover. With very few people.

Marybeth,

I'll keep this short. Please just speak on behalf of yourself and not me from now on.

This is part of the problem on here where people attempt to speak for others. Please, just stop that aspect of it.

Mr. John Q. Public,

I think you finally got it right. It is a 270% increase that would have been permissibel I think Marshall lost track at 1.08 to the power of 15. He is obviously using a calculator as I did and I crossed that mark at 1.08 to the power of 15. If he had gone to 17 he would have gotten it right. Easy to lose track when you do it manually without a sophisticated calculator. But his method was right on target!

So we all agree we can give the NPD a 270% increase!

But how did they squander the remaining 430% in increased pension costs?

How did the Naperville Fire Dept squander the remaining 630% in increased pension costs?

Now that we all agree that the number allowed and acceptable due to growth and inflation is 270%, can anyone shed any light on all the extra waste of these 2 departments.

Let face it they came in last and second to last in this Municipal Survey. That does not say much for our city council who brags a lot but has nothing of substance to show for their statements.

Thank You!

Mike,

My post was based on Marshall's earlier post (Marshall on July 1, 2008 12:26 AM) in which he assumes a 100% increase in population along with 100% cumulative inflation. He is now using figures that are probably more accurate (5% annual population increase, and 3$ inflation), but there is still a little problem in his calculation: 1.08 raised to the power of 17 = 3.700 not---in other words, a 270% increase, not 217%.

We still need to account for another 500%, or so, though (or was it 700%?). I'm not in a position to be able to explain this increase. My suspicion, though, is that it is largely the cumulative effect of the city presumably underfunding the pensions when the stock market was booming in the 90's coupled with the extreme correction we experienced in the early part of this decade.

-JQP

Host Ted,

I agree with Sherry. If you truly want to run an investigative newspaper, when these stories about waste unravel, you really need to cover them.

You went out of your way to praise the NPD for solving the mystery of a missing puppy that was not even solved by the police but by a civilian in Plainfield who got no credit.

But when it is time to hold the Naperville Police or Naperville Firefighters accountable for having the worse pensions cost increases in a Downstate Municipal Survey, Host Ted is missing in action.

What scares me Host Ted, is the police that are receiving pension funds are police from 30 years ago, when Naperville was only 35,000 or about 1/4th the size with 1/4th police.

Basically we have 200 working police and taxpayers struggling to support the 50 police who retired from that era. And we have a huge deficit! Imagine when in 20-30 years these newer cops retire and we will only have 200 police and taxpayers paying for 200 retired cops assuming Naperville is done with its exponential growth of the past.

How can we afford 200 retired cops on pension if we can not afford 50 retired cops from before 1980? And despite the fact that we have 200 paying up for 50 we have the second most increased pension costs in this Municipal League Study for the 59 downstate municipalities.

It is obvious to all the Citizen Journalists including Joe that pensions are completely out of whack. Why is it not obvious to the Naperville Sun? Shouldn't every taxpaying citizen be informed of this chaos by the local newspaper? If the taxpayer was truly informed, I don't think these things could be happening in town. The Naperville Sun keeps everyone in the dark and thus the City of Naperville literally does what it wants. It appears to give cops and firemen any salary they ask for. I guess if it is not out of their pocket, they don't seem to care.

This report appears to be credible. We have all been complaining about high taxes. It helps solve the mystery.

Please report the findings of your Citizen Journalists in the print edition. Let the chips fall where they may!

Thanks!

Host Ted,

Your blogs are awesome. They are so informative compared to your print edition. Your print edition at times seems boring.

When are you going to bring your print edition up to the level of your blog site?

You promised us something on pensions nearly 3 weeks ago. It is a hot issue on your blog site. Someone found a great Municipal Study giving our police and fire department pension funds either last place or next to last place.

Here these city officials in council chambers are all praising each other and the truth slips out that their performance has been disastrous! Can you imagine that!!!

Please do something Host Ted. You promised us the Naperville Sun would be an investigative newspaper. Your blog site is spectacular but it seems like your newspaper is yawning all the time!

In reading all this interesting stuff, I really think the solution is in rescinding home rule.

Limiting city officials to the lower of CPI or 5% would put them on their toes again. They would have to actually review the packets they get Monday evenings and try to trim expenses.

Right now their jobs are so easy. All they have to do is rubber stamp any expense and increase the corresponding tax line. Just seems a bit too easy. The faster they rubber stamp any Tuesday night, the faster they go home.

If they had to balance the budget in the true sense, they would be foreced to balance it by reducing expenses. Bankruptcy is too embarrassing for a wealthy town like Naperville. But as long as they can shaft the taxpayers with annual increases of 20% or more on their property taxes and avoid bankruptcy that seems to be their preferred course of action.

Host Ted,

What I find really unusual here it the silence of City Officials. A report is out saying they have done a terrible job in the contolling of pension costs.

No one has anything to say! No one wants to discuss the issue!

It just makes me wonder what is going on in this town.

I guess the possibility does exist that the police and fire departments were giving their retirees massive raises combined with bonuses and promotions on their last day of work.

We all want to believe these things only happen in Chicago, Aurora, Joliet and Lisle.

But what if we are all wrong and these things are actually happening right here in Naperville! I think this is a strong possibility. If nothing was going wrong we would not have the worst pension funds in the state for both our fire and police departments.

By John Q. Public on July 1, 2008 2:09 PM
Marshall,

Actually, we were both wrong. Your estimate of 200% was based on a 100% increase in population coupled with 100% inflation. On that basis, expected costs should quadruple, which amounts to an increase of 300%.

-JQP

-----------------------------------------------------------------

JQP,

I don't follow your logic. I follow Marshall's a little better. I think he is saying if the population grew 5% per year and doubled gradually over this 17 year period, and cost of living went up 3% each year for 17 years, he would see an increase after 17 years of 1.08 to the power of 17.

I multiplied 1.08 x 1.08 X 1.08 X 1.08 etc. etc. and another 13 times the old fashioned way since that is all my calculator will do and I got Marshall's numbers of a 217% increase.

I believe Marshall is right with his calculations based on my limited knowledge of math.

But let us get to the point since we still have 400-500% increases in pensions at the police dept. that no one seems to be able to explain. And with the fire department it is 200% worse than the police dept. no matter how you slice it.

Does anyone have any answers as to what is causing this? Do you have any idea Host Ted? Can anyone shed some light here?

Ken,

As anonymous said your are always pouring gas on the fire. How about some water for a change as he suggested! You are attacked sometimes but in a sentence here or there and it is usually because you asked for it.

Your entire posts are dedicated to these perceived attacks. It is almost like you think you are playing a WAR GAME.

Why don't you try to write a post strictly about your feelings that pensions and double dipping are out of hand without mentioning any blogger, the Napergate Man, his "cult" followers or Napergatians.
If you did that your remarks would be noticed and apprectiated.

You do remind me of the old Joe who just wanted to argue for the sake of arguing. Joe seems to have really changed and he has earned my respect even though I still disagree with him. But he does ask good questions and he focuses on the issues and not messengers.

The only thing that seems to set Joe off is the arrest of the Napergate Man downtown. I urge no one to bring that topic up so we can stay on the right track and continue moving forward and solving our serious city waste problems resulting in this unbearable taxation which comes at a time of very high gasoline and food costs. Combined it is really stressful on most household budgets.

Marshall,

We could start the officers at 80K, enroll them in a traditional 401K, match it up to 5%, do away w/ any new pensions and save ourselves some serious coin in the process.

I don't believe 60K starting salary is the problem. I will agree that the pension system how it sits now should be tweaked/adjusted/overhauled/sunsetted going forward and that is the problem.

Anonymouse 10:54am, I can't address you by name because you lack the courage to post under one name. At least Blake, Marshall, and other cult members are brave enough to do that. Show me one instance where I have "attacked" first. I only respond to the keyboard rambos. Once again, another keyboard rambo, you, say I should just let them attack me without responding. Not going to ever happen. By the way, if Ted banned me for responding, he would in all fairness have to ban half the cult members for attacking. All the warnings for personal attacks have been to cult members. What does that tell you?

Marshall, you cannot even read and comprehend what is written here. In this very thread I have posted facts with links to bolster my argument. I have even agreed that the pensions and double dipping are out of hand. You and your ilk hate me so much that you never address those facts or the fact we are somewhat in agreement on a few things. You just keep up the personal attacks. I can only assume you are too hate filled to read any comment by me without only getting whatever meaning you want to out of it. As I told Blake, I can post facts until my fingers bleed from typing, and you will continue to ignore them as they do not fit your agenda.

Marshall,

Actually, we were both wrong. Your estimate of 200% was based on a 100% increase in population coupled with 100% inflation. On that basis, expected costs should quadruple, which amounts to an increase of 300%.

-JQP

Joe,

I skimmed over the lengthy report. Blake's layman summary helped me immensely.

The report talk about the gross amount earned. It does not talk about per person.

We have tried to adjust by giving Naperville 130% leeway since they had a 130% growth in population. The state of Illinois also requires every retiree to obtain a 3% cost of living increase in his pension which I consider fair and reasonable as long as the pension is based on a reasonble salary with no end of career triple bumps.

Winnetka only had a 61% increase according to this thorough study in this 17 year period. Apparently it did not have growth but had those 3% increase that I figured totaled to 65.29%( 1.03 to the power of 17). It makes sense! It may have also decreased the size of the force by one officer or the numebrs don't work out!

Naperville had a population explosion that Winnetka apparently did not have. Thus we have to give them another 130% leeway in the GROSS AMOUNT for everyone combined.

We are trying to adjust mitigating and aggravating factors to be fair. I find these factors about 200%.

That is why I am asking for an explanation of the differential between 700% and 200% for the police dept. and why I am asking for an explanation of the differential between 900% and 200% for the fire dept.

I really believe something is very wrong. And again as Napergatians said before me the root and starting cause is the starting salary of nearly 60k that lays the foundation for everything else that has gone wrong. If Naperville tripled police starting salaries during this 17 year period, it would have a great impact on pension costs.

When you increase the starting salary substantially, you have to increase the salary of every police officer or fire fighter to keep everything in sync. Pensions could larger with larger salaries. I also have a great suspicion, Joe, that we are having big promotions at farewell parties for our retirees. But I don't have any proof, yet!

Chicago Sun-Times has uncovered this in many departments that had pension cost increases much less than Naperville. This study of 59 municipalites puts the NFD as the worse and the NPD as the second worse. They could not have reached those horrific ratings if everything was on the UP and UP. When you have the worse record something is usually wrong.

If it is not corruption....if it is not crookedness....if it is cronyism....if it is none of the above it is pure incompetence.

What bothers me is how they pat these two departments on the back with constant almost sickening praise on Tuesdays at the City Council Meetings. As the Napergate Man once said in his ads, this reminds me of the "Stepwives Town" where everyone was roboted and city officials could do no wrong.

Of course in that movie the Napergate Man would have been grabbed and roboted after he exposed them. Sometimes I feel Councilmembers Doug Krause and Darlene Senger have been roboted. We know Brestal roboted Councilman Rosanova by giving his son a position in his law firm. And finally Councilman Furstenau has been muzzled because of his litigation most probably by his own attorney.

I can only imagine the frustration the Napergate Man is feeling if he continued to follow the careers of these 4 candidates whom he endorsed and helped get elected. It is easy to understand why he prefers being retired. At least there are no reports out that Abby has let him down...not yet!

By John Q. Public on July 1, 2008 10:04 AM
Marshall wrote:

"Maybe we increased our population 100% during this period. Maybe we have cost of living raises totaling 100%. That is 200%."

Actually, that would amount to a 400% increase, due to the compounding effect.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. John Q. Public,

I respectfuly disagree with you. This is not 2 X 2 = 4.

If we have a population growty of 5% a year and a CPI index raise of 3% each year for these pension pay-outs, we have a total increase of 8% per year that would be acceptable.

If we took 100 as our base, we would end up with a base of 317.22 after 17 years, if we took 1.08 to the power of 17.

The difference between 317.22 and 100 represents the per centage increase. The percentage increase would be 217.22% which is in line with my estimate of 200%.

I think your example is more applicable to cell reproduction where one cell divides in two and the two become 4. Even with this example you will have a 300% increase in cells and not a 400% increase in cells. Many people have this misconception about percentage gains!

Remember both of these increases came simultaneously and gradually over the years. There was no point were they suddenly doubled.

But even if I gave you the benefit of the doubt and let you have 300% increases as justified, how do you explain the remaining 400% increase in the NPD and the remaining 600% increase in the NFD to arrive at their respective increases of near 700% and near 900% over this 17 year period for PENSION COSTS!

It does not appear the Fire Chief was fired for shoving his 18 year old in the son in the chest for misbehaving. There appears to be a more serious reason. Let us see if Chief David Dial can survive this Illinois Municipal League finding that rated his department the second worse police department out of the 59 municipalities studied in regards to pension cost increases! Excuse my wordiness since I am trying to be clear to make up for Blake's lack of wordiness that may have caused some confusion! Again, we are strictly talkng about PENSION COST INCREASES!

Of course Chief Dial is got Mayor Pradel and City Manager Bob Marshall on his side. The Fire Chief was an outsider with no one on his side and disposable. He was apparently disposed for good cause and reason....not shoving his son in the chest!

Marshall or Blake,

I'm a bit confused and would appreciate a clarification if you don't mind:

What is the pension increase PER person receiving the pensions?

Is that what is 700-900% or does the 700-900% just refer to the gross amount owed out?

By Anonymous on July 1, 2008 10:54 AM,

Very well said Anonymous! It is really amazing how much effort people like you, Blake, myself and many others put in trying to research the issues and Ken just attacks us instead of our message.

We give Ken links to go to so he can verify these near 700% pension costs increases in the Naperville Police Department and all he can say is the Napergate Cult is on the attack once again. That is all he has really said in the last serveral months!

I doubt Ken has ever taken the time needed to read and comprehend a 51 page Fiscal Analysis Report written by any governmental authority in his entire life. It is pretty hard to be a productive member of society if you blog full time!

T.B.,

Just to clarify some confusion, Blake was referring strictly to pension costs since he was addressing a 51 page report that only deals with Downstate Police and Firemen Pension Systems.

I think he made it clear he was dealing with the Fiscal Analysis of the Pension Systems of Downstate which does include Naperville. I believe he gave the link which led me to this report. I did not read the entire report but it was easy to understand it after Blake summarized it.

The report does not deal with salaries....only pensions that are based on these salaries. But obviously there is a big correlation since pensions are based on salary. It does not deal with the cost to build new Fire Stations.

Naperville appears to have had an increase of population from 1987 to 2004 of possibly 120-130%. Thanks for providing the information TB. I was estimating 100% off the top of my head. I was even adding another 100% for inflation and cost of living. Since 3% increases in pension pay-out to retirees are allowed by the state, I have to assume they took place and that would account for an increase of 65.29% over the 17 year period.(1.03 to the power of 17 is 1.6529%)

I was a little low on my population growth but a little high on my cost of living increases but if you combine them my estimate of ALLOWANCE of 200% increases in pension costs is justified.

A near 900% increase in pension costs instead of a 200% increase is just not explainable or acceptable. I suspect there was some hanky panky going on as in Lisle-Woodridge where Fireman Kurt was promoted to Captain at his retirement ceremonies. Imagine if he was just a 1st Private Fireman making 90k a year and they give him several promotions to make him a Captain making 120k a year at his retirement ceremonies.

Basically, it sounds like they wanted to retire him with his full salary by performing this end of career bump at LISLE TAXPAYER EXPENSE. Maybe the Lisle Sun should investigate this story. I mean we have a first name and we have the name of the fire department. How many Kurt's could possibly work in Lisle-Woodridge Fire Department? It is a small fire department!

The Naperville Sun should do a Freedom of Information Act on retiring Naperville police and firemen to find out if they also are given raises and promotions upon retirement. According to many Chicago Sun-Times articles and columns I read, this is a state wide practice that has literally caused havoc in our pension system.

Since the Naperville Firemen Rank #1 in increased pension costs and the Naperville Police Rank #2 in increased pension costs in this survey of 59 municipalities, I would say there is a good chance the Naperville Sun would uncover a cover-up.

Would the Naperville Sun be interested? I am not sure based on its history even though we are seeing some improvements. Hopefully they will continue despite the unfortunate loss of Editor/Publisher Jim Lynch who seemed the force behind these improvements and left his mark and legacy for us to continue. The verdict is still out on Host Ted but I have a good feeling he is going to deliver the goods. At least he is on record as saying he will, and he seems to be a man of his word.

If the Napergate Man was not retired, would this be the subject of one of his Napergate ads. You can bet the farm on that one!

Ken,

I'm sure you are a legend in your own mind.

Fact is you are not a messenger and so far you have not delivered a message. Not on this thread. Not on any of the many, many other threads either.

Attacking people, calling others either a member of a cult or a Napergatian along with some of your other tactics is not discussing an issue. Fighting fire with fire only builds a bigger fire. Try fighting fire with water if you want to try to occasionally make a valid point in a discussion.

Have some people attacked you? Absolutely! Did you have it coming? Absolutely! You attack people first and then play the martyr game and over and over again we hear the trite bit about "attacking the messenger". You need to recognize that your interpersonal skills leave a lot to be desired, that you are provoking other people, and that you are directly responsible for fanning most of the flames that have occurred on these forums.

Stop addressing people personally. Stop using the visceral adjectives. Stop using the lame argument that you are just defending yourself. You do not need to defend yourself. You only need to defend your side of the issue and if you have any intelligence you can do that without making it personal.

If you can do this maybe the rest of us will stop asking Ted to ban you for your behavior.

Marshall wrote:

"Maybe we increased our population 100% during this period. Maybe we have cost of living raises totaling 100%. That is 200%."

Actually, that would amount to a 400% increase, due to the compounding effect.

Marshall on June 30, 2008 8:33 PM

So maybe I should have said if we change over to State Rule that Napergate Man would put the City of Naperville between a Rock and a Hard Place. Either make drastic reductions in expenses or file bankruptcy

I hope I made myself a little more clear. I don't see you guys sweating the 900% increase in Fire Department Pension cost increases. If you guys and all taxpayers would be sweating that and calling your city officials, there would be no need for a return of the Napergate Man

-----------------------------------

Marshall, thanks for clarifying your previous statement, I didn't think the NGM was a vindictive person and you simply meant that bankruptcy "could" be a result if home rule is invoked.

I do have a problem with pension costs and wasteful spending, and I am "sweating" about this. Of course it becomes a moot point if the city filed bankruptcy so clarifying this with you was my first concern.

Just out of curiosity, when you called the city officials to complain what was their response? (I am just assuming you have already called based on the wording of your post: "If you guys and all taxpayers would be sweating that and calling your city officials").

Marshall,

YOU: WHAT TESTIMONIALS INDICATE THE POLICE IN NAPERVILLE ARE DOING A GREAT JOB! THE MINORITY FEELS THEY ARE DOING A GOOD JOB BUT THE MAJORITY FEEL THEY ARE NOT DOING A GOOD JOB. TO SAY THEY ARE DOING A GREAT JOB IS A LITTLE RIDICULOUS.

Please post this poll you took of all residents to show the minority believe they are doing a good job and the majority don't think they are doing a good job.

Calling a side a minority or majority doesn't make it so, even if you want to believe it falls that way.

I honestly think you don't know what a bad police or fire department is like to be saying they are not doing a good job.

Marshall, I have always posted with my name. That anonymouse is just someone else who recognizes the hilarity in the lunatic ravings of the cult members.

Ken

Are police doing a good job in Naperville?
By Naperville Sun editors on June 20, 2008 6:00 AM | Permalink | Comments (137) | TrackBacks (0)

So what's the verdict on Naperville cops? Are they the best money can buy? Can you say they're not worth every penny?

Testimonials would indicate the police in Naperville are doing a great job. Do you agree?

_________________________________________________________________

Anonymous and Host Ted,

I don't think we are veering off topic. We obviously are hitting a sensitive nerve in the police department.

The above are quotes from your introduction, Host Ted! You are asking for the verdict on Naperville Cops. Well, the verdict is terrible when they raised their pension costs on us nearly 700% in a 17 year period from 1987-2004. I am sure it is bothering many people affiliated with the police as possibly Anonymous since this is indefensible behavior by our fine Naperville Police Department and its Union, and the Fraternal Order of Police.

What is going on here? Maybe we increased our population 100% during this period. Maybe we have cost of living raises totaling 100%. That is 200%. How do we account for the other 500% in pension cost increased expenses? Can anyone explain? Were Naperville Police Officers receiving substantial raises on the last day on the job??? The pension payouts are based on the last day on the job. Not even the last year! Do our city council officials know how to negotiate with the police and firemen unions to protect the citizens? It is off topic but the firemen pension has 700% of unexplained pension cost increases compared to the police dept. which only has 500% unexplained pension cost increases. In each case we can explain 200% of the increases...but not the extra 500% and 700% increases that brought us to 700% and 900%. That is just not explainable!

This is not been about hatred. We all love our firemen. They don't give us tickets or DUIs. All they do is save our lives. But it is inexcusable to allow them to raise their pension costs 900% in 17 years. Totally inexcusable! It is not about Napergatians having hatred for anyone. To the best of my knowledge the Napergate Man never said a word about the fire department in 20 years. He probably did not know they were having problems worse than even the police department. This is new information just coming out from the Illinois Municipal League.

It just seems like when City Supporters can not defend the indefensible actions of City Officials they jump on the Napergate Man, his followers, his cults and anyone who calls himself a Napergatian. What the hell did we do? The Police and Fire Depts. and their Unions screwed up! We were not involved. We are simply reporting the news on Ted's Threads that the print edition of the Naperville Sun does not feel like reporting.

It is the same as the Napergate Days. The Napergate Man reported the news in his Napergate ads that the Naperville Sun did not feel like reporting.

Why are our City Officials and their followers afraid of the facts? Why are they afraid of the news? Why are they afraid of the findings of the Illinois Municipal League? What do they have against Napergatian Blake who took the time to read the 100 page report and summarize it for us? The link was posted by I believe both Blake, Martha and even Mr. Tom Higgins for all of us to go verify the report and his summary.

Regarding your comment Host Ted that this is all entertainment, I respectfully disagree. Personally, I feel hurt that our city officials can be this incompetent and take money away from my family and kids. Ninety per cent of the people in this country are on budgets and have limited spending power. I happen to be one of those so I care about my taxes going up 19% year after year to feed these pensions that are not only outrageous but seriously underfunded historically.

I think it is time people stop complaining that we are off topic. We are right on topic! We are on TARGET!!! BULLSEYE!!!

********************************************************************

Host Ted wants some answers to his following questions posted in his introduction:

So what's the verdict on Naperville cops?

THE VERDICT ON THE NAPERVILLE COPS IS THEY ARE WASTEFUL ABUSERS OF TAXPAYER MONEY.

Are they the best money can buy?

THEY ARE NOT THE BEST MONEY CAN BUY. YOU CAN PAY EQUALLY GOOD COPS FOR 40K INSTEAD OF 60K THAT HAVE THE SAME TRAINING, EDUCATION AND GRADUATED FROM THE SAME ILLINOIS POLICE ACADEMY.

Can you say they're not worth every penny?

OF COURSE I CAN SAY THEY ARE NOT WORTH EVERY PENNY. 700% INCREASES IN PENSION COSTS WHILE OTHER TOWNS ONLY SHOWED 100% INCREASES OR LESS IS UNCONSCIONABLE!

Testimonials would indicate the police in Naperville are doing a great job. Do you agree?

WHAT TESTIMONIALS INDICATE THE POLICE IN NAPERVILLE ARE DOING A GREAT JOB! THE MINORITY FEELS THEY ARE DOING A GOOD JOB BUT THE MAJORITY FEEL THEY ARE NOT DOING A GOOD JOB. TO SAY THEY ARE DOING A GREAT JOB IS A LITTLE RIDICULOUS.

********************************************************************

In the future Anonymous try to improve your reading skills and comprehension as Ken is always preaching. It is clear we are answering the questions Host Ted asked us to answer. He is asking leading questions hoping we would pump up the police department. It did not work. In a courtroom setting Host Ted would never be able to phrase questions in such a way to lead the witness to the answer he was seeking. An objection would be sustained....very loudly and clearly!!!

It sounds like you are Ken, Anonymous, doing your cry baby act about the Napergate Cult. Don't you ever get tired of your silly games, Ken! I guess you are trying to be Anonymous since so many of us complained about your non-stop silliness and have asked for you to be banned for a while.

I guess this is a way for you to avoid your PUNISHMENT!

Be a man Ken, and post with your name! You are the only one on these threads who constantly calls the Napergatians a Cult Movement. Nobody does it but you...so trying to be Anonymous will not get you anywhere. You are not the smartest cookie around...that is for sure!

Marshall, It's not as easy as you make it sound.

First, the petition is only to get something on the ballot. Second, the referendum has to actually pass. Thirdly, you should read this:

(excerpt from http://www.citizenadvocacycenter.org/Ed.%20Brochures/homeruletwo.htm )

"Repeal Home Rule

The Illinois Constitution allows for a home rule unit to repeal its status via referendum. The Constitution does not indicate what happens to those ordinances passed pursuant to home rule authority once a unit repeals its home rule status. The general assumption is that a home rule unit will repeal regulations implemented with home rule power, however, that is not always that case. If a tax levy was passed in order to secure bonds, the tax levy is still valid even if home rule is repealed. Courts argue that to invalidate the tax would prevent home rule units from securing bonds with tax revenue because there would be a constant threat of the revenue disappearing with a referendum repealing home rule. See Royal Liquor Mart v. The City of Rockford 133 Ill. App. 3d 868, 479 N.E.2d 485 (Ill. App. Ct., 2d Dist. 1985). Therefore, if a home rule ordinance establishes an on-going valid obligation specifically based on revenue generated from home rule powers, that particular tax may not be repealed with a general repeal of home rule.

Additional concerns involve borrowing. Home rule units have no restrictions on the amount or manner of borrowing. For example, when Villa Park repealed home rule in 1980 it had to restructure its debt to meet statutory requirements. This restructuring raised the community’s debt costs and forced an increased tax rate.

When Rockford repealed home rule in 1983, its property tax rate was cut back to non-home rule level. To make up for lost revenue, the city went to referendum to raise the tax rate back up to the “home rule” level. In this case, tax levels were not decreased but voters were allowed more citizen input. "

I think, in short, we're paying for it either way. One way just ties a hand behind our backs.

Blake on June 29 @ 1:11 A.M. stated that “Police pay needs to be reasonable. If you study the Illinois Municipal Report, you will see we also can't afford what we are paying.” And continued with “In a study of 59 downstate and suburban police and fire departments, the Naperville Fire Department had the highest cost increase of all 59 from 1987 to 2004. A staggering 896%.”

Blake, are you saying the 896% increase was solely in salary or was the increase in all costs? As written, your post appears to refer to costs, in general, not specifically salary costs. Please provide more on this please.

While I agree that police pay needs to be reasonable, many of the cost increases during that time period (87-04) were also due to the fact that Naperville was increasing at an alarming rate during this time period. This would necessitate increases in manpower, equipment, and even fire houses. Comparing a city with a large increase in population to one already largely built-out (such as Winnetka) may not a very fair comparison.

Naperville’s web site shows that the city’s population was 42,601 in 1980; 85,351 in 1990; and 140,636 in 2004 (the last year in Blake’s numbers above). No figure is listed for 1987. These facts can be found at: http://www.naperville.il.us/emplibrary/Population%20Trends.pdf

**********

Marshall –

“Basically Blake found out our Naperville Fire Dept. Pension costs were up nearly 900% in the last 17 years. Highest by far in the study of 59 municipalities selected randomly both for police and fire.”

Please re-read Blake’s initial post I referenced above and my comments regarding the wording of his post. The post appears to refer to costs (in general) rising almost 900%, not salary or pension costs as you stated. I'm not defending this number in entirety, but would like to know how you attributed the entire cost increase to the pension costs.

I’m sure you and Blake can clarify this information for us all.

T.B.

Joe and Anon 4,

No one wants to see the Napergate Man or for that matter any citizen force bankruptcy on the City of Naperville.

Any citizen including the Napergate Man could get frustrated with his rising taxes and collect 1,200 signatures in order to repeal home rule.

If the City of Naperville was forced to go to state rule it would have 2 options.

------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Control and reduce expenses including salary, pensions, and heath benefits plus trading in Ford Trucks(they should have bought Toyotas from a local dealer and kept the sales tax in Naperville) at 52,000 miles.

2. Not doing the above would mean certain BANKRUPTCY. Under state rule the City of Naperville is limited to the lower of the CPI INDEX or 5% for real estate property increases.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

So maybe I should have said if we change over to State Rule that Napergate Man would put the City of Naperville between a Rock and a Hard Place. Either make drastic reductions in expenses or file bankruptcy.

As many others, my Naperville Property tax increase was up 19.12% this year. Under State Rule, it would have been capped at 2.5% which was the CPI Index last year. So if the city would have operated in the way it operated last year, if it was under state rule, it would have forced BANKRUPTCY on itself. The money would not have been there to pay the expenses

I guess it would not be the Napergate Man or any other citizen who would force Naperville to petition for BANKRUPTCY. It is the City of Naperville that determines its fate by the actions it takes. As you all know that California City gave very high salaries and pensions and was forced to petition for BANKRUPTCY without the existence of a Napergate Man or even a cap. It just got UNBEARABLE!

But honestly I would like to go back to STATE RULE so we can corner City Officials to produce and stop being wasteful.

I only chose the Napergate Man because he has organizational skills to get the job done. It is well known that he got 2 petitions signed each with about 3500 signatures.

He had the signatures notarized in the first one and presented to the courts on behalf of his liquor licenses.

He had the signatures notarized in the second one on behalf of his subdivision and neighboring subdivisions in the battle for Spring Green and presented to City Hall.

Those 2 petitions were not city wide issues as going to state rule from home rule in a referendum. I suspect he could easily get more signatures on a situation involving every taxpayer in Naperville.

In summary to be clear, if the Napergate Man got a petition to take us back to STATE RULE and it passed in a referendum the City of Naperville would have to change its wasteful spending habits or file BANKRUPTCY. I goes the Napergate Man can't force them. He would give them the OPTION. They would determine which path they choose and I certainly hope it is curbing expenses.

But since he pounded them for 10 years on expenses and the Municipal League says their police and fire pensions are up nearly 700% and 900% respectively in a 17 year period, it is unlikely they will change unless the Napergate Man or someone else takes us back to State Rule.

I hope I made myself a little more clear. I don't see you guys sweating the 900% increase in Fire Department Pension cost increases. If you guys and all taxpayers would be sweating that and calling your city officials, there would be no need for a return of the Napergate Man. It seems he prefers retirement anyway. But I still believe if the City of Naperville continues opening holes the size of the Grand Canyon, he will find it irresistible to come out of retirement. Just my opinion!

Only time will tell if I am right! I do know many of his lieutenants from the old days and I know they are salivating to participate in the next election. I also do know many are trying to persuade him to come back and continue the Napergate Series and run Napergate VL or XXXXV whichever is the proper Roman Numeral. Anything is possible!

I would feel comfortable saying the chances of his return increase with revelations about 900% increases in City Pension Funds when many towns were under 100% in the same identical period. Let us wait and see! Speculation won't get us anywhere. I would rather see our City Council Members start taking wasteful spending seriously as soon as possible. That would be the preferred course of action!

To the Editors, How is any of this related to the topic you posted? I know you wont answer, but I sure wish you could at least keep these threads consistent with the theme? Why dont you have a napercult thread that we can laugh at year round, and leave the rest of the threads to non cult members posting what they have from the early napergate threads. Poor Marshall, the guy is still waiting for someone to lead him to the promise land...

Response from editor:

Threads evolve, they get off topic, true, but like you said, it's often entertaining to see where they go.

Marshall on June 30, 2008 10:40 AM

I would rather see the city council act than the Napergate Man come out of retirement and force bankruptcy on us. I have no doubt he has the ability to do it.

____________________________

Hi Marshall, I'm not sure I'm following the logic. I admire the NGM and think he has, and is doing a good job at fighting underage liquor abuses. But if I read your post right, are you saying if the NGM comes out of retirement he will force bankruptcy on our city if he wishes? Hopefully this was just a simple error on your part, I don't think the NGM would try to do this to all of us and the city? He's a businessman as well.

Also, I read that CM Bob is vacationing in Europe and will respond upon his return.

Marshall,

You're saying the NGM will force bankruptcy on the city?

"I would rather see the city council act than the Napergate Man come out of retirement and force bankruptcy on us. I have no doubt he has the ability to do it."

Did I read you correctly?

Councilman Bob,

I would really like to hear your thoughts on how the current city council and prior city councils allowed the police and fire pensions to rise nearly 700% and 900% respectively in a 17 period from 1987 to 2004.

It sounds for this to happen some city council members were sleeping behind the wheel. I hope they are not still sleeping behind the wheel. Please wake them up on Tuesdays as you are sitting next to them. If your driver fell asleep while driving you would certainly wake him up....so please do the same!

I do watch the City Council meetings on Tuesdays and I see very little serious questioning from city council members on presentations by city officials. It is as if you would trust these officials to invest your personal funds for you. Or maybe you would not trust them with your personal funds but are trusting them with taxpayer money!

Something has gone wrong in City Hall. The Napergate Man turned on the whistles and bells for us all through out the 90s. City Officials wrote him off as an angry man or whatever. Maybe he was angry but he sure was telling it as it was. The Illinois Municipal League confirmed his findings that City Hall was running each department like it was a RUNAWAY LOCOMOTIVE.

Yes, a 900% increase over 17 years even when factoring in 100% for growth and 100% for inflation is a RUNAWAY LOCOMOTIVE.

What can you do Councilman Bob to convince your fellow council members that they are on the wrong course. That the RUNAWAY LOCOMOTIVE will derail resulting in BANKRUPTCY for the City of Naperville.

All taxpayers have to do is rescind home rule and the City of Naperville is bankrupt. With only 10,000-12,000 voters, all we need it 1000-1200 petition signers or 10% according to state law to have it put on as a referendum in the next Naperville Elections. Let us not forget the Napergate Man used his Napergate ads and 2 stores to collect nearly 3500 petition signatures not once but twice. Almost singlehandely with the help of his employees who were on premise.

The city needs to fear the Napergate Man coming out of retirement because the job will be much easier for him than last time...much much easier. The evidence is all out in crystal clear transparency. FINALLY! He is no longer the only one that sees it! We all see it with the Napergate Man. Maybe late, but late is better than never!

I would rather see the city council act than the Napergate Man come out of retirement and force bankruptcy on us. I have no doubt he has the ability to do it. And the job has been made easy for him with these RUNAWAY LOCOMOTIVES. He just needs to nudge them as their speeds are about to derail them anyway!

Anonymouse 10:15 pm, why must something be done about me? I only fight back when I am attacked. I have stated many times I wish only for a civil debate, but when those unwilling to accept an opinion other than theirs respond to me with the viscous personal attacks, I will respond. My replies are not even close to their attacks in terms of the name calling and libel that they indulge in.

As for silly nonsense, all my posts combined do not contain as much as your post just did. I post facts, many times with links to back them up. I obviously can't speak for Ted, but maybe he appreciates someone who backs up facts with sources, and acknowledges when something is an opinion instead of fact. Maybe he realizes that a true debate has two sides and that a board where everyone posted in lockstep to their cult would be a waste of bandwidth. I feel Ted has already chosen wisely as he allows the libelous attacks from the cult members and also lets me respond. Just because I make you and your ilk look silly when I respond is not a good reason to ban a voice of sanity in the avalanche of insanity posted by the cult.

Host Ted,

I agree with Anonymous that Ken is out of control.

He simply attacks almost every blogger and not their message.

He never does any research of his own...but constantly attacking messengers with his latest target being Blake.

It sounds like Blake decided to spend the entire weekend reading the 100 page Illinois Municipal League report. More like analyzing it. Why is Ken attacking him for his work? It always seems Ken attacks first. Many bloggers just write once in a while and disappear and Ken attacks them as if he wants to provoke them to come back and fight him.

Basically Blake found out our Naperville Fire Dept. Pension costs were up nearly 900% in the last 17 years. Highest by far in the study of 59 municipalities selected randomly both for police and fire.

He found out the Police Dept. Pension costs were up nearly 700% or second worse among police depts. in the 59 municipality study of the Illinois Municipal League.

Ken has been proven very wrong. Instead of apologizing to the Napergatians he has chosen to attack each and everyone who dares to do any research to show something is wrong with the pensions of our police and firemen. Even Joe to some extent has become reasonable and agrees with the Napergatians that something is wrong. He is probably the staunchest supporter of the police on your blog site but seems to understand we are heading for a crises. Seems interested in averting one like the rest of us! Kudos to Joe!

Anyway, I hope you do something about Ken! For his own good! Cutting him off for a month would help him come to his senses. Timothy was terminated permanently for much lesser crimes than Ken. He was only a first time blogger. He may have had a bad hair day and went off...who knows! But he was not given a second chance! Let us show some fairness Host Ted to both sides.

I hope you do your article on police and fire pensions with a tie-in to your blog site so we can get some fresh blood on your blog site to replace old blood like Ken. It appears Ken has chased many bloggers off since I last blogged. Or maybe blogging is down, because Host Ted can not update as often for a very good reason and bloggers can not respond to each other. Could be a combination! (Moving is hell...I have experienced twice)

Host Ted, I would try to be critical in your press article on the pensions. Saying do you think everything is OK with our pensions really will not do the job with taxpayers who are not deeply involved. But mentioning to your print readers that they have increased their costs up to 900% instead of an acceptable 100-200% the last 17 years, I believe will rattle them into blogging and participating in the battle against City Hall and its wasteful habits. Some Illinois towns and cities have only gone up 60% to 70% for this identical period of study.

You have got a powerful report to back you up now, Host Ted! It is their Municipal League that pretty much told us Naperville is INCOMPETENT. What more do you want?

Is this not a more important topic than the rescue of that puppy? And truly it was not the NPD that rescued that puppy. It was the lady who bought it or took it form the punks who stole it who solved the crime. Instead of giving this lady credit, the Naperville Sun gave it to the NPD! The story should been about this brave and honest LADY! We don't even know her name!

This is an indication to me that the Naperville Sun may be hesitant to take on the NPD and NFD and would rather heap praise as the City Council does. But where does false praise get us....where has it gotten us....nowhere? Constructive criticism is much more productive when you have "Runaway Locomotives" as the Napergate Man correctly described these Naperville city departments in the 80s and 90s in Napergate ad after Napergate ad. He even graphically charted the runaway expenses to show us how exponential they were. Again, as some bloggers said, "who is more important these 400 overpaid and overpensionalized employees, or the 144,000 taxpayers who are being heavily taxed unfairly to SUBSIDIZE them for their wasteful habits."

To the moderator,

Something has to be done about Ken. I hate to complain and would really prefer to see an open forum where people are free to exchange thoughts and ideas, but this guy is just totally out of control. I'm at the point where I'm fed up and sick and tired of his silly nonsense and constant personal attacks.

It is your forum. Ken is taking this down, not building it up. It is your choice on how you handle posters like Ken. I hope you choose wisely.

Blake,

You've made the leap of faith that Romeoville is paying properly to begin with.

Personally, I think Romeoville should pay just 1.15% shy of what Naperville pays.

We'll use DuPage county because that is where the municipal center sits.

Earlier when someone used Bolingbrook as a guide for salaries I should have pointed out their poster child for the type of officer their environment helped to produce... but we'll not go there.

I have no argument that retired officers are costing us a pretty penny. However, we're obligated to pay them from my understanding. We can change it going forward.

As for Ken, he's your problem.

Dupage 1648.....Will County 1,478

Cost of Living differential from IRS by link from Joe.

1648/1478 = 1.115%

Romeoville is 38k for starting police salaries.

Naperville is 59k for starting plice salaries.

59/38 is = 1.553%

1.553%/1.115% = 1.393.

___________________________________________________________________

Joe,

Basically the IRS is saying we are overpaying our cops 39.3% relative to Romeoville which is in Will County. And I am giving you a big benefit of the doubt by putting all of Naperville in Dupage when you are fully aware 40% of Naperville is in Will County.

If you want to do some IRS equalizing Naperville should pay 1.115% of Romeoville which assumes all of Napeville is in Dupage.

$38,000(Romeoville starting pay IS) X 1.115% = $42,370(Naperville starting pay SHOULD BE)

This is what the Napergatian bloggers have been saying based on surrounding communities. I beleive the number they have thrown out was 42k based on our surrounding neighbors.

Thus, Joe, you provided crucial information to prove the Napergatians right.

Of course I agree with you that pension is also a very serious problem. But you must realize that paying a cop 17k more than a neighboring town results in 75% extra pension on the difference. In this case we are talking about $12,750 more in pension benefits for a Naperville Cop vs. a Romeoville Cop.

But when you factor raises over 30 years the difference even become greater. If Naperville gives end of career promotions as Lisle does, the situation becomes a nightmare.

But let us be conservative and just go with the starting salary and the resulting differnce of $12,750 in pension between an NPD COP and a RPD COP.

If we have 200 retired NPD cops that is costing us a cool $2,550,000 per year. That is no chump change Joe! That is something we can not afford when you add it to $3.15 million police overtime and higher salaries.

As I have posted before there is a DIRECT CORRELATION between what you pay an officer and what his pension is.

I am not being silly, Joe. You are being either in denial or trying to put a spin on the issue with your below remarks.

"Their salary isn't the problem. Their pension is."

We are only obligated to pay what we negotiate with the union up or down. We have negotiated up and until we negotiate down we have to pay them what we promised.

But in new negotiations, we can ask them to be reasonable. If they won't we can file BANKRUPTCY. I believe they will be REASONABLE.

Recently the CTA in Chicage had to renegotiate. Everying was negotiated down. They knew something is better than nothing.

Naperville Cops are smart and all have college degrees. They must understand the City Council gave them more than the residents can afford. They understand the City Council was rubber stamping the impossible. They understand the City Council will be voted out in the next election for causing this financial fiasco. They understand the next City Council will be faced with reduction or bankruptcy.

I believe the Fraternal Order of Police will do the right thing and remedy the situtation for the betternment of all parties.

Thanks very much Joe, for at least having an open mind and contributing constructively to the debate. It does not bother me that you called me silly. But I hope you see, I am not really silly. I am serious and armed with the data needed and necessary to bring change.

Have a good day, Joe, and I must say your efforts to help that plaza on Baily Rd. have been nothing short of heroic. I commend you for that. Please see if you can mentor Ken in being a little more reasonable and less stubborn on these blog sites. Thanks, Joe!

Blake, as I have shown relentlessly, it does not matter what facts I link to, or how many times I expose the cults lies as you and your ilk will ignore them. They do not fit your argument, and always destroy them. If it makes you feel good to call me a liar and an idiot when those labels so obviously fit you and the cult better, so be it. I will continue with facts and continue to laugh at your lunatic ravings. I notice you did not take me up on my challenge. That non-action on your part shows exactly what kind of windbag you are.

What battle of napergatians are you talking about, Blake? All I have seen is a lot of talk and no action. Of course, that is all a windbag of your ilk is capable of. The cult's call to action only goes as far as attacking debaters they can't win against on a board that will have little effect on any election. Good luck with that stellar movement of yours.

Police, fire, and city employee salaries ARE a problem. A very BIG problem.

Pensions are based upon the salary costs so PART of the pension problem is directly linked to the payroll PROBLEM.

Someone earlier posted that we need the best and brightest. That is nothing more than a cliche'. It is like apple pie and baseball... you have to tell the city employees that we only hire the best and brightest, but that really never is the case. The best and brightest are your stars who are going places. They are your future leaders. If all we hire are leaders... then who is following? Who is doing the work that needs to get done? Save the trite rhetoric. We need basic, competent police officers. Anyone who has passed the police academy passes this test.

Let the best and brightest earn their degree and become the big fish in other police departments. It isn't good for these police officers to have a couple of hundred highly qualified officers doing little or nothing that maximizes their capabilities and then having to compete with a couple of hundred similarly qualified officers for a couple of sergeant opening that come up each year. These officers would be doing all of the police departments in the greater metro area more good if they were distributed throughout dozens of departments rather than concentrated in just Naperville.

Blake,

Their salary isn't the problem. Their pension is. As I stated from the onset, the right thing to do is to honor what we said we would do and start a new pension/retirement for any new hires. If we are contractually obligated to pay the high percentage for existing, we have to. If it's flexible and based on what city council votes on for the city-funded contribution, then that's where we start.

Your 'point' about mcdonalds didn't go over my head. I simply pointed out the apples/oranges you were making.

Comparing Romeoville to Naperville is again silly. Even the IRS has a higher amount for allowable living expenses on their regional sheets that are higher for DuPage county than Will county which shows that there is an economic difference that even Uncle Sam recognizes between the two places on a county basis. Have a peek yourself: http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=104791,00.html

By T.B. on June 28, 2008 4:45 PM
Blake –

Just because some other city refuses to (or simply cannot) pay their cops what they deserve for a job most of would never contemplate doing, that doesn’t mean they’re right and we’re wrong. I simply don’t think police pay needs to be reduced to the lowest common denominator.

T.B.

------------------------------------------------------------------

T.B.,

Police pay needs to be reasonable. If you study the Illinois Municipal Report, you will see we also can't afford what we are paying. We are digging a deeper and deeper hole each year. In a study of 59 downstate and suburban police and fire departments, the Naperville Fire Department had the highest cost increase of all 59 from 1987 to 2004. A staggering 896%. By comparison Edwardsville only had a 71% increase and that is a growth town. Rock Island had a 76% increase during this same period. And since Ken only likes to be compared to very wealthy towns, Winnetka only had a 61% increase from 1987 to 2004. Please someone smell the coffee. How much more do you need Host Ted, to run a front page article so we can control our costs by exposing them. Let us shame and embarrass the fire department and the city council for allowing this. Maybe we now know why the Fire Chief is gone. His performance compared to 59 other departments stunk.

Our police dept was not the worse from 1987 to 2004, but was the second worse. It's cost increase % was up 687%. Wealthy Winnetka was only up 86% during this period. Well to do Skokie was only up 90% during this period. Peoria with a large population was only up 85%. Rock Island was up 113%. Maybe Chief David Dial should have gone with the Naperville Fire Chief. He only fared a touch better by being second worse in the police category instead of worse in this study of 59 Downstate and Suburban departments selected by the Illinois Municipal League.

The evidence is just overwhelming that our City Council and City Officials are doing a terrible job. I hope Host Ted could put his minor conflict of interest aside and give this story the credence it deserves. It is coming out one way or another. Why not do it and take credit for it, Host Ted!

I seriously doubt the Napergate Man is going to sit the next election out with holes this big. You knew about the holes they gave him last time, Host Ted. They were large holes. These are craters the size of the Grand Canyon.

They are setting themselves up on a silver platter for the Napergate Man to roast them alive. I hope you see my point Host Ted and expose this incompetence. Let us not call it corruption but when your great police and fire departments have cost increases of 687% and 896% respectively in a 17 year period something is awfully wrong. If we doubled our growth, we should have a 100% increase...or a 150% cost increase if you factor inflation. But these numbers reported by the Illinois Municipal League are totally UNACCEPTABLE!

I hope everyone joins the battle of the Napergatians against City Hall. This is a battle to end corruption, cronyism and crookedness once and for all! It is all black and white. Let us stop making excuses for our City Officials and finally hold them ACCOUNTABLE!

Thank you for allowing me to post so much this weekend, Host Ted! I guess you could say after reading that long report I boiled over! I hope everyone boils over right before election day!

I'm leaving tomorrow for a trip to Europe with my daughter (graduation gift). I'm sorry that I wasn't able to provide answers yet to the questions directed to me in the earlier posts. I promise do so when I return. Peace, ~CM Bob.

Ken,

Your accusations that Diana lies or is a liar don't hold much water with the bloggers.

She seems very credible and honest. She does not feel a need to defend herself as you do. Joe hinted people that needed to defend and deny so badly usually are guilty of something. I believe you fit in the category Joe described very well.

The tollway was a mess and changed its policy form month to month and year to year. Diana revealved they subcontracted their work to out of state agencies who had different policies.

If you love the Daily Herald so much, TB linked an article stating that the Toll Authority Chief saying he dose not go after Toll violaters until after 3 tolls or more. Now you are saying your friend the Daily Herald is lying since they go after violaters after only 2 violations. I hardly doubt they would go after just 2. (Don't try to blame it on the Chicago Tribune unless you can provide a link.)

If the Chief said 3, it will be at least 3 or more. It would not be 3 or less as he would then be deceiving. When they were busy as they were from evidence of being 5 years behind, they had to go after people with 4 or more to catch up. That is what they did!

Diana did not lie! She did not steal records. Her girl friend did not break laws. All this stuff was public! They even had public hearings in Downers Grove with an Administrative Judge handling case by case open to the public. Getting a speeding ticket or toll violation are public records.

Don't be silly and pretend Diana's friend committed the crime of the century. She just knew where to look and unravel the mess at the Toll Authority. No one else knew where to look.

Pictures were taken in public of that white van driven by the Napergate Man's daughter not paying the toll. How is that private when the camera at the toll was in public picturing away?

Give me a break, Ken!

I am begining to honestly believe you are the MOTHER OF IDIOTS!

Joe,
I think you are being a little silly.

Of course I don't believe a McDonald's employee should make 60k starting salary, 100k ending salary, and a 75k pension.

Ken had been saying we need to pay more here so our officers can live here amongst us.

I was showing how much of a fool he is by saying maybe our McDonald's employees should be paid more so they can also live amongst us. I guess my point went over your head.

Yes, I agree you can not compare a police officer to a McDonald's employee.

But all the responsibilites you mentioned a Naperville Police Officer has and a McDonald's employee does not have, are also responsibities a Romeoville Police Officer has.

Yet we pay nearly 60k to our police and RPD pays nearly 38k.

Thus you are CHECKMATED Joe!

Just accept it and move on.

Stop being silly like the old days.

The fact is we are paying more than we can afford.

I read the 51 page Illinois Municipal Pension Disaster report and my conlclusion is we need matching funds of 84% just to pay for our annual costs of police pensions.

If you want to get rid of the $50.5 million deficit over time you probably need double the 84% over about a decade.

You and Ken have to realize we are overpaying the cops and fireman.

You forgot why pensions were set us in the first place.

They were set up because in the old days government employees made less than private. It was to equalize the paying field.

Now government employees are paid much more. We need to elminate pensions all togehter and equalize the playing field...it works both ways.

Don't be blinded by love. It will only get you in trouble.

When only 2 people believe as you 2 believe and the majority believes otherwise, the majority is usually right.

Enough proof has been presented that both of you are wrong.

It sounds like you are arguing just to get your rises and highs. You guys want to be right when you are wrong. Is there some egotistical behavior at work here? Just asking...no offense intended!!!

If you believe in what you are saying, then be ready to double your real estate tax bills to pay for these excesses that are getting worse. Put your money where your mouths are! Not at Jimmy's Grill!

Blake –

Perhaps the blue vs white collar discussion is a little off point, but why did you decide to tell me that and not Anon, who brought it up in the first place?

Maybe NPD cops don’t need to be paid $60K, and I stated as much in an earlier post. But I think they need to be paid enough to attract and retain the best and the brightest. The draconian cuts some have advocated are just irresponsible.

Just because some other city refuses to (or simply cannot) pay their cops what they deserve for a job most of would never contemplate doing, that doesn’t mean they’re right and we’re wrong. I simply don’t think police pay needs to be reduced to the lowest common denominator.

T.B.

The 2002 Naperville shooting was the first time a Naperville Policeman has fired his weapon in the line of duty since the 1940's.

For comparison purposes the Chicago Police Department shoots a civilian once every 10 days.

Chicago starting pay is less than $36K

Enough about how much less dangerous police work in Naperville is than Chicago. If Naperville Police Officers were paid based upon the danger of their work they would make about $24K per year. If they were paid proportionately to the danger of Chicago they would be paying US for the privilege of working in the safe neighborhoods our community provides for their workplace.

To Lillian from her June 24th posting that read: "Not one Naperville Cop has ever even been shot at while on duty in the 178 year history of Naperville. Common reality is one thing and illusional fantasy is another."

Lillian, in 2002, a Naperville Police Officer was shot at. He returned fire and killed the man who shot at him. Check your facts before you make statements like that.

To those of you who criticize yet are obviously very much in the dark about what police officers go through every day, the Naperville Police Department offers a Citizens Police Academy. Residents of Naperville are given an oppurtunity to learn about what some of what their officers do. It's an interseting experience and I encourage all of you to sign up. Even if it doesn't give you a better appreciation for the officers, it will at least give you an educated background from which to make your criticisms.

This has become, like so many other Sun blogs, just another forum to complain about police pay and pensions. I did not see the words "pay" or "pension" in the question. I believe the question was "Are police doing a good job in Naperville?" Maybe the moderator needs to get things back on track.

Blake,

Your job comparison arguments are becoming a little silly.

Everyone knows you can take a 16 yr old and stick them in a McDonald's and they can do just about every job short of management after watching a few videos and being shown how by a fellow employee.

Police work is different than pulling things out of a cooler and sticking it on/in something and hitting a button and squirting a ketchup bottle and suggesting a customer to round out their meal with a dessert.

If you think they are similar jobs then there's no point in continuing further.

Host Ted,
I think I posted this one on the wrong thread. I think it belongs here.

Thanks,
Blake

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Thom Higgins,
The city can reduce pension costs by 33.33% by starting cops at 40k instead of 60k. Your pension is based on your salary.

Since these pensions are based on the salary a cop received the last day he worked we need to make sure there are no bumps like in Lisle with Captain Fireman Kurt at his farewell party and in some school districts.

Benefits such as health insurance are completely controlled by Naperville. According to state law, Naperville can pay none, pay some or pay all. Since we can not control pensions except through controlling salaries, we should take the health insurance money and dump it into the pension fund instead of using taxpayer money in excess of 10%. We could make the cops buy their own health insurance.

But we can really control pensions by going to state rule where we could not increase taxes by the lower of the CPI index or 5%. We have been or should have been paying between 18% to 28% per cent in matching funds for police pensions since 1984. We have been or should have been paying between 23% to 33% per cent for firemen pensions since 1984.

And yes we are underfunded $50.5 million. It seems like we need to file bankruptcy or get ready to pay 84% in matching funds for the next decade or two.

We have 200 cops making an average say of 80k. They are contributing about 10%. The city is contributing about 20%. Thus the total ANNUAL contribution is $4,800,000.

We may have about 200 retired Naperville cops who are expected to live till 81 and collect pension for 30 years.

Each retired cop making 100k on his last day on the job needs 75k. Thus we need $15,000,000 a year to support these 200 retired cops who are expected to live from ages 51 to 81. They also get 3% raises per year during retirement. And they continue getting full health and life as they get older. Health insurance is much more expensive for older people thus our costs for health insurance are out of this world.

So if we are only collecting $4.8 million a year from cops and taxpayers, how can we pay $15 million a year to retired cops without falling behind. And yes we fell behind to the tune of 51 million for both police and fire! And we will continue falling behind.

The taxpayers need to pay in 84% of matching funds to supplement the 10% provided by the police if we are going to break even year in and year out!

Investments from the prior fund money has not been there to help. They expected 7% in 2000-2002 from the stock market but got a large NEGATIVE PER CENT. The investments really have provided nothing since the turn of the century.

And sadly in 1999 right before the bubble collapse, our state legislators in Springfield increased and sweetened police and fire pensions making today's crisis even worse.

The actuaries for the State of Illinois are incompetent. They used all the wrong numbers and planned on a 7% return and now admit there was no 7% return.

I think we need to spearhead a movement back to state rule. Be limited in the funds we can get from taxpayers and thus be forced to file bankruptcy.

If we file bankruptcy the police and fireman get zero for pension in retirement. Their union leadership got greedy and the saying does say pigs get fat, and hogs get slaughtered. If I were the Naperville Police Union, I would come back to the table and renegotiate immediately starting with starting salaries and eliminate all health benefits so those can be plowed in the pension system. Maybe with some luck we can get them 25-50% of their pensions if we don't file bankruptcy.

But the current situation is simply not sustainable. Both City Officials and State Officials are clueless. If they had a clue we would not be in this mess.

The State of Illinois has the highest pension deficit of all 50 states. I believe about 48 BILLION. Greed will always come back and bite you in the butt. The taxpayers need to wake up or pay 84% in matching funds for police and fireman in coming years....each and every year. That would have the effect of almost doubling our taxes.

Please wake up taxpayer and vote early next year. The State Legislature is as corrupt and crooked as they come and have given themselves pensions better than even the police or firemen. Can anyone believe this racket in the State of Illinois?!?

___________________________________________________________________

PS. I estimated my numbers after reading the 51 page Illinois Municipal Report on Pensions. I also wrote from my memory without referring to the report to get this synopsis done quickly. I did not PLAGIARIZE. I can tell you all one thing....we got our work cut out for us if we plan on putting an end to our corrupt government.

Well, Blake, the only thing you are right about in the usual long cult attack post is that I mistakenly typed Tim instead of Ted. I never claimed to be perfect. Sorry, Ted, I made a mistake. However, Blake, I have no worries about being banned, as I believe TED is not as small minded as you.

Blake, why can't you and your ilk debate instead of attack? I stand by my statements, especially since calling me an idiot does not disprove them. I have explained myself until my fingers are sore from typing, but I guess the typical dense cult member like you cannot or will not understand simple English. Of course, I expect no less from someone who cannot tell the difference between someone authorized to use deadly force from someone authorized to add fries to your order. My personal experience was an example of what can happen in the hiring process, and a suggestion of how something similar could be causing the discrepancy in numbers. By the way, nice of you to call the Herald not credible without any proof.

You asked where Diana lied. Here is one lie that actually relates to this thread. She stated that hardly no other suburb in the country pays more than Naperville for starting salary. Here is a link to the Parade magazine from June 15, 2008(http://www.parade.com/articles/editions/2008/edition_06-15-2008/Intelligence_Report) that shows New York city is losing out to suburbs with starting pay of $57,000 compared to their starting pay of $35,881. Seems when you use comparable big cities, you have the same problem as when you use comparable suburbs to Naperville: you lose your argument.

Diana lied in the tollway thread when she said the tollway does not send out violation notices for under 5 violations. She used her friend that was illegally accessing tollway information to back her up. I was sent a violation notice for three violations and the Tribune has reported that notices can be sent out after 2 violations. Diana said I was lying even after I offered to meet her and show the physical proof to back up my statements. Diana has had many other of her 'facts' wrong, but I really tire of recounting them every time one of your ilk asks for proof, Blake.

As long as I am refuting lies, I may as well address the biggest cult lie about me. Jim never warned me in any way, shape, or form. I have proved the cult members wrong so many times that I have no problem making this offer: If anyone can prove that Jim warned me beyond any doubt, I will never post here again. Now, are any of the cult members/keyboard rambos ready to make the same offer?

Blake, I have remained the way I am for 45 years. Why would I change now, especially as I don't consider peer pressure a compelling reason as you seem to do?

Ken,

I detect your bearings are getting loose. You called Ted, Tim. I guess you were thinking of the Tim that Ted or Jim banned permanently. At least somebody planted a seed in your mind that you could be banned permanently. No one is immune! The fact that what happened to Tim is planted in your head means you are finally worried that Host Ted may be on his last leg with you.

Diana posted the God D*mn web site for you, Ken! And you still wants us to believe she is lying or is a liar. Give me a break, Ken! Now your twisted logic is Naperville may not be an up and up town and may offer less than advertised because someone in Lisle Township realized that you were a dumb idiot and tried to offer you less because you are single. Well I guess townships will do that if they feel they have a dumb idiot on their hands. They probably offered you less to make sure you did not take the job. They probably did not want you if they offered you less than advertised.

So are you saying your Naperville numbers may be legit because it is possibly Naperville would advertise at 59k job and just offer 52k because one is single. I don't think it works that way, Ken, and all you are doing is making a fool and a jack@ss out of yourself. Show us where you got your number from. Trace it to a source not a newspaper that quoted without verifying.

You been told umpteen times your buddies at the union may have fabricated some numbers to increase the bargaining position of the Dupage Sheriff. No one has been able to verify their numbers but many many people verified Diana's numbers by going straight to the city's web sites. Many different city web sites and her numbers all check out. Direct from the source!

The bottom line is you want to stick with the Sheriff that you quoted even though he was proven wrong. I don't know for sure but maybe he was in an EMBELLISHING MOOD! Cops are capable of embellishing. Principals are capable of PLAGIARIZING! What don't you comprehend, Ken?

Diana's numbers are backed up by the City's Web Sites. There is nothing more she can do. How could you call her a liar, Ken? Did she really go out to lie? She used the lower number of the 2 Naperville starting salaries in order not to make Naperville look too bad. She was being overly fair and you called her a liar and whatever.

How did she lie on the Tollway incident? She got the 4 violations of the Napergate Man's daughter as had been highly rumored and posted them by toll both, time, lane, license plate, van and whatever else. How is she lying?

Diana did not call the Daily Herald a liar. She never said a word about the Daily Herald. You are implying that they lie with your comments. She did not call the Sheriff a liar. She never said a word about him. You are implying that he lied with your assinine comments. I think the Daily Herald just took the information from the Sheriff and did not verify it because he is suppose to be credible. Maybe when the Daily Herald printed the erroneous information the Dupage Board believed it had to be credible as you did and fell for the bait. The Napeville Sun checks its sources and verifies. That is why it is taking a long time for Host Ted to do an article on police pension! He wants to have hard core evidence. We are willing to wait on him for reliability.

As you know the union trickery worked and the Dupage Sheriffs did get a 7,000 dollar raise based on erroneous information.

You should know Ken if a lie is repeated once too often sometimes it is believed. That is why people jump on you immediately so your lies are destroyed before being decimated to the public to read. You lies are like viruses that attack computers meant to disable. That is why we need to disable you as quickly as possible.

This Citizen Journal blog site is no Daily Herald. We check the information posted here and call those who lie out. You may not be use to the fact that we are not going to let you lie and spread your filth on Ted's Threads.

We are going to call you out each and everything time you lie and deceive, Ken. Now stop being an idiot so we can stop calling you an idiot. Unless you want to be the Mother of all Idiots!

Joe could be a good mentor to you. He has come a long way. He has really matured. He does not argue for the sake of arguing. He apologizes when he is wrong. He helps the struggling. It was nice to see Maryann say all those nice things about Joe and I agree with her. I hope one day we all will say nice things about you too, Ken!

But stop arguing for the sake of being an idiot looking for rises. Help us tackle the city's wasteful spending. Address why a Naperville Cop should receive more than a 30 year veteran of the St. Louis Police Dept.

And don't tell us because he works in Naperville. So do McDonald's cashiers and burger flippers work in Naperville. Should we pay them 60k a year so we make sure they wash their hands after using the facilities. Should we give them 75% pension like the police so they don't touch raw meat right before touching cooked meat. All that so they would care more about the community they work in. And why not give them 12k in health insurance benefits to complement their 60k salary. And why not start paying $19.99 for a Big Mac so McDonald's can afford all those benefits. And $7.99 for a medium diet coke! And $8.99 for a mediun fries. That is almost 40 dollars with tax for each kid to eat at McDonald's. Can you afford that, Ken, for each of your children? OK, maybe you finally get it. We can not afford to give the cops the kitchen sink!

I hope you can comprehend Ken! At some point you need to get it and get those bearings fastened on a little tighter. Remember Ted is the one that excommunicated Tim. Tim was the blogger excommunicated. You do not need to fear Tim. But you need to fear Ted. He is the man in charge now!

Why don't you take a chapter from Joe's book! You just can't remain the way you are forever!

Ellen, who is the idiot? From Councilman Bob on the Bob Marshall pension thread:

Debbie - I tried to read the postings on the Sun's blog up till a couple of months ago. The reason I stopped reading them is that the strings seemed to degenerate into name-calling and conspiracies being dreamed up by 6-7 of the same anonymous individuals. The couple of times I posted and offered to meet with, talk by phone with, or even exchange emails with, the individuals posting, absolutely no one took me up on that offer. I'm hoping this isn't true of every blog, but the Sun's seems just to be a place where people engage in what I've begun to call Word Rage, which is similar to Road Rage in that the individuals can act aggressively while remaining mostly anonymous. Do you think that the postings on the Sun's blog have gotten any more level-headed so that I don't have to wade through a bunch of wacky ones before getting to ones that make some sense??"

He has said this other times as well, but one is enough to show you are wrong. He was attacked by Walter in that thread, and by others in other threads. Maybe the reason Tim does not ban me as those I continually prove wrong urge is because he realizes I post the truth and can always back it up. Your libelous charges easily refuted by me are just one of the many cases where cult members have had to make up lies while falsely accusing me of doing what they are famous for.

Diana, you are calling me a liar, along with County Sheriff Zaruba and the Daily Herald, which I have noted many times as the source of my information. Is that a clear case of libel too? You called me a liar on the tollway issue, posted the lies of your friend and refused to believe the Chicago Tribune and the tollway spokesperson when their article backed up my claims. You wouldn't even meet in a public place to see my physical evidence as you knew it would prove you wrong, showing the typical lies that you post here as 'extensive' research. If I were you, I would go easy with that libel label as it seems to stick to you very well.

By the way, Diana, just because that salary is posted on the web site does not make it true. Years ago, I applied for a job at the Lisle Township streets department. The starting wage I was offered was a few dollars below what was offered in the ad. When I asked why, I was told that since I was single, I didn't need to make what a married person getting that job would make. Point is, the posted salary is not always the same as what is actually paid. This may be the reason for the discrepancy between your source and mine. Either way, the fact that you never want to compare NPD's pay rate with comparable towns vying for the best candidates continues to tear your arguments apart.

T.B.,

You are off point here. Whether cops are blue collar or white collar is really irrelevant. The discussion is about paying them fairly and competitively and not excessively.

I am sure you saw those posts showing a St. Louis cop in his 30th and final year makes less than a Naperville cop on his first day on the job.

They do the same exact work as the Naperville Police Officers. They have much more risk to their lives as St. Louis has much more murder than Naperville. I read somewhere it was the top 5 in the murder capital category with Detroit and a few other cities.

As many people have stated, you need to stop circling and explain why we need to pay Naperville Cops so much more than not only surrounding communities but communities nationwide. Your own research indicated Naperville Cops are paid more than FBI agents when everything is equal by locality and hours. Almost 14k more!

Why do we have to pay 22,000 dollars more than Romeoville, TB? Their cops are college educated. I was stopped once or twice by them and they were very professional and courteous just like Naperville cops.

Why can't you just admit that we have a bunch of council men and women who did not know how to bargain with the unions and gave them what they wanted at taxpayer expense.

Maybe if the Naperville Sun alerted us that this was going to happen, we would have all shown up at City Hall to complain. In the old days the Napergate Man would alert us with his Napergate ads and we would fill city hall and stop them in their tracks.

The Naperville Sun needs to run a front page article alerting us that our City Council Men and Women are about to give our police a staring salary of nearly 60k plus benefits and pension value equalling at least half the starting salary. Maybe warn us of the tax implications to the residential homeowner.

I am sure if the Naperville Sun was doing its duty, City Hall would be packed as in the Napergate Era. But not telling us in advance what are City Council is up to until after the fact has destroyed our town and caused our taxes to skyrocket.

Yes, Naperville is becoming unaffordable for almost everyone. And we have not even paid the 50 million needed for these parking decks or the 50 million needed to refund the police and fire pensions for the money they lost in the bubble market while their fund managers gambled their money away. Who controlled all that squandered money.
City Officials or Union Officials! Someone needs to pay for those losses....not the Naperville Taxpayer who contributed that money to the tune of 21.16% of matching fund. We paid dearly once! We should not have to pay dearly twice!

What else don't we know about! Please no more suprises for our next real estate tax bill!

By T.B. on June 27, 2008 10:33 AM

Jay –

I can only go by my own personal experience with attorneys where they are charging upwards of $350 an hour and keeping track of their time in tenths of a minute.

Put it this way, Jay, would you rather have your son or daughter be a NPD cop (with the current benefits) or be an attorney?

******************************************************

T.B.,

For an MBA, you show a complete lack of understanding as to how the business world works.

Attorneys do charge from 150 bucks an hour to 350 bucks an hour. Recently 2 attorneys I know in Chicago who were partners folded and declared bankrupty. They were charging 200 bucks an hour.

When an attorney charges 200 bucks an hour...that is like retail...when a cop makes 60,000 a year that is like net profit. A cop has no expenses out of pocket. They even buy him his vest and gun. He does not even have to buy health insurance for his family and we all know about those nutty pensions.

An attorney has to pay for a secretary. He has to pay rent! In Chicago it could be 60 dollars a square foot. If he has a 1000 s.f. office that is 60,000 dollar a year in rent coming out of his 200 dollar per hour billing. If his office is 2000 s.f. that is 120,000 dollar per year. He also has to pay his portion of CAM and Real Estate Taxes. He has to pay electricity, heat, phone, alarm, water, insurance, and it goes on and on. He has to drive his own car to court and pay his own gas and parking fees which are 30 dollars in Chicago. A police officer drives a taxpayer owned car and gets his gas from a taxpayer owned pump for free and never pays any parking fees out of his pocket!

While law firms do in fact bill 200 bucks an hour, they pay their starting attorneys 30 dollars an hour. You, yourself posted what starting attorneys truly make...less than a Naperville Cop. You were very right the first time. Let us not go back to your circling antics that you are so famous for and destroy your own credibility.

It is enough we have one idiot named Ken on this blog site. We don't need 2 idiots. Please TB, you know better!

By Ken on June 26, 2008 12:05 PM
Paul, I am called an idiot because you and your ilk cannot attack the message, so you attack the messenger. That type of debate chased away CM Bob. He has been attacked more than once, and has mentioned that you conspiracy nuts keep him away from these blogs more than once.

__________________________________________________________________

Councilman Bob today.

By Councilman Bob on June 27, 2008 1:28 AM
Just checked out this thread and I see some questions directed to me. I'll try to get answers and post them quickly. ~CB.

___________________________________________________________________

It is very easy to see why people call you an idiot, Ken! Stop acting like an idiot and no one will call you an idiot. Does anyone call Joe an idiot? No one anymore!

You are only called an idiot when you act like an idiot.

Calling Diana or others liars for giving us correct numbers is why you are called an idiot. The fact that Host Ted allows us to post that you are an idiot may mean he does not disagree with us.

You are lucky we are in unchartered waters. If you called people liars in the print editon you would have deprived your kids from food on the table. Grow up, Ken! How old are you by the way?

BTW, I have not seen anyone attack CM Bob. Please post where he was attacked. It is just your nature to feed fires, Ken! If there was ever a forest fire, you would be the first person I would suspect. It would be a relatively easy investigation!

Paul –

I never said anyone attacked CM Bob or that anyone didn’t appreciate that he joins us from time to time. Please re-read my post and you’ll see that.

I was relating what CM Bob had said which was (to paraphrase) that he tunes out the threads when there’s no discussion going on, just attacks flying back and forth. It’s not a productive use of his time to get involved in a thread when this is happening.

The free flow of ideas is better done without ANYONE being called an idiot, no matter what you think about their posts. For example, it would be quite easy for me to call you an idiot because you completely misread my post regarding CM Bob but that wouldn’t be productive, would it?

It’s really quite a simple concept--civility.

**********

Jay –

I can only go by my own personal experience with attorneys where they are charging upwards of $350 an hour and keeping track of their time in tenths of a minute. I also have a good friend who I wouldn’t consider to be among the elite in the brains department but he makes more than $200K per year as an attorney.

Put it this way, Jay, would you rather have your son or daughter be a NPD cop (with the current benefits) or be an attorney?

**********

Anon –

I believe cops should have college degrees and this shouldn’t be considered a "blue collar" position. Thieves are increasingly using technology and complex financial transactions in their crimes. Even drug dealers in Chicago are laundering their money through real estate transactions, committing mortgage fraud, and identity theft. We need well educated cops to prevent and solve these crimes.

Also, today’s cops have to perform their jobs in a very litigious society so they have to have a very good understanding of the law, their responsibilities, and everyone’s rights.

T.B.

CM Bob,

What are your personal thoughts on what we pay police and firemen in both salary and benefits?

Since times have changed are we not in a better position to stand up to the union in the next negotiating session?

Is it true that historically we gave these 75% retirement pensions to city employees to make up for the fact they were paid substantially less than the private sector?

I did see the report stating that private sector blue collar makes about $9.78 cents while government sector blue collar now makes $16.84.

Since the tides really have turned in the last decade, why is there a need for these pensions?

Why is there a need to retire a cop at the ripe young age of 51? A construction worker whose work is much riskier and strenuous than a cop is not retired at age 51. Why the unfairness here? I watched those construction workers on the Bailey Rd. bridge the other day and they were all sweating profusely. If anyone should be retiring at age 51 with 75% pensions they should. There backs will not hold out with the kind of work they do. Impossible! A police officers back will hold out very easily!

Please bring some sanity back to our city, CM Bob! Were you involved in the bargaining agreement that gave these outrageous salaries, pensions, and benefits? Was nobody putting up a case for the taxpayer side? Was no one showing numbers from other police departments showing they work for much less?

It is really shocking to read that a St. Louis police officer ends his career 30 years later making less money that a Naperville police officer starts his career. Do you see some unfairness here, CM Bob?

How about you, Host Ted? Don't forget us on that article about police salaries and pensions in the print edition. I am really looking forward to that one. I believe the community will be outraged once the word gets out to the majority who obviously do not blog with us.

Thanks...:)

There appears to be a lot of confusion as to the starting salary of a Naperville Police Officer created by Ken. I did post the lower $56,397.12 in the comparative study I did 2 weeks ago on another thread on your blog site. I was trying to err on the side of favoring the Naperville Police. Most bloggers are using the higher $59,216.98 which is used to compute pensionable earnings. It is very close to the estimate of nearly 60k being thrown around by Napergatians and others.

Of course Ken is calling all those who are estimating $59,216.98 as near $60,000 "LIARS." Calling people "LIARS" is not the same as saying they are lying. It is much worse and is considered libelous and slanderous.

If people can not recall the same exact number and do not have time to go to the original web site, are they really "LIARS?"

I urge Host Ted to curb Ken if he would like his Blog Site to be trusted and useful for discussion. Ken is nothing but a trouble maker. The rest of us are serious about reducing city waste that result in unaffordable taxes.

We had been promised by Host Ted that this site would not tolerate libel, slander and profanity. Yet we see it unfortunately tolerated against Napergatians by Host Ted. I urge Host Ted to read the below directly from the web site of the City of Naperville. It will show that Napergatians are not lying or liars.

Again, I would urge Host Ted, to suspend Ken for at least a month. Moderator Jim issued him his gentle warning already. Some blogger named Timothy was suspended for life. I read his post on the Napergate Network and it was nowhere as bad as what we are seeing from Ken even though it was a little inappropriate. It was also only a one time event and he was a first time rookie poster!

Please be fair Host Ted and take some action against Ken. If you don't you will be perceived as unfair. You have really been doing a great job as of late and I do not see why you let this Ken character tarnish the reputation and credibility of Ted's Threads with his obviously numerous false posts and ridiculous accusations that are clearly libel and not "just bordering on libel." It is very clear-cut libel. No gray area here, Host Ted!

Below is the proof from the City of Naperville Web Site that you may need to take some action against Ken! Please take the appropriate action you feel is fair. Keep in mind Poster Timothy was suspended for life! Let us show some balance and fairness, Host Ted!

Thank you!

PS. Sometimes you claim you can not take action because you have little time to check accuracy and falsehoods. Well, I posted the salaries from the City Web site so you don't even need to hit a link to verify that Ken is a little off with his remarks and accusations against others. I have not responded for 2 weeks hoping he would disappear. He does not go away! He is like a parasite that needs to be sprayed with insecticide to get him off your blog site!

___________________________________________________________________

Eligibility Testing

The Board of Fire and Police Commissioners is currently recruiting for the position of Police Officer.

Applications will be available March 1, 2008

Application deadline is September 2, 2008

Apply online at www.publicsafetyrecruitment.com or by calling (800) 343-HIRE.
Note that applications WILL NOT be available at the Naperville Police Facility or at the Naperville Municipal Center; only through Public Safety Recruitment's Web site.
All applicants must be available for the following exams:

Orientation and Written Test (Mandatory)
September 19, 2008
Naperville Municipal Center
400 S. Eagle Street
Naperville, Illinois

Physical Ability Test
September 20, 2008
Naperville Police Department
1350 Aurora
Naperville, Illinois
(630) 420-6665

The Police Officer position is non-exempt, paid by an hourly wage negotiated between the City of Naperville and the Fraternal Order of Police Lodge 42. The hourly wage rate for the fiscal year '08-'09 is $27.114/hr. Expressed on an annualized basis, this equates to $56,397.12. Also, of the 11 paid holidays each year, six are calculated into the position's pensionable earnings, holiday pay and experience bonus for a total annual earnings of $59,216.98. Other benefits include:

All Naperville uniforms and equipment is provided, including an option of carrying a department-owned weapon.

By Bubo on June 26, 2008 7:51 PM
We shouldn't get too carried away with the police pensions, which clearly need some attention if they are $50 MM underfunded. The real "Death Star" from a tax increase point of view are the two school districts.

Bubo,
I don't think there is a major problem with the schools expenses. My District 203 tax bill shows a modest increase of only 3.37%. That is probably inflation and reasonable raises for the teachers.

The increase for the City of Naperville portion on the same real estate tax bill was 18.48%. Mine was a little less than the 20% reported on this blog site.

It is natural to need more money for schooling than policing. The teachers have our kids all day. The police have little contact with our kids unless they get themselves in trouble.

So I think looking at the RAW AMOUNTS is like looking at apples and oranges.

You need to look at the annual RATE increase...that is where you can see how our City Officials are failing us....miserably may I add!

Am I right, Host Ted?

Councilman Bob,

I am in the market for a new home. Many homes we found for over a million dollars are going for 200k or more below their peak price.

My realtor tells me that if I buy a million dollar home for 800k, I will see a 20% savings on my real estate tax bill.

However reading this blogs site, it seems this may not be so.

If all the homes go down 20%, it is my understanding I will see no tax savings....unless the city reduces expenses by 20%. This is the message being sent by Napergatians it seems on this blog site. I guess the Napergatains say the city will just increase the "tax rate" to make up for the reduced assessment and we will see no tax savings. Maybe tax increases???

My realtor says the Napergatians are wrong and I will see a tax bill for 20% less than last year as long as we get the home for 20% less than it was assessed last year by the Naperville Township Assessor's Office.

Who is right here, Councilman Bob? I want to make sure I can afford my house with some cushion left over in case gas goes to $7 dollar a gallon next year as is being specualted on the commodities exchanges.

Councilman Bob,

It is good to hear from you. I am glad you are willing to address our concerns. Is there any reason your fellow council members are not willing to address our concerns?

In particular, what happened to Councilman Dick. I thought he was in the forefront to help prevent police waste and OT. Does he feel muzzled because of his litigation? Has his attorney ordered him to remain silent until his litigation is over? The Napergate Man was very vocal throughout his litigation. What is the difference!?!?

Has the city considered settling with him and getting this mess over with?

It seems like with the passing of time tempers on both sides have cooled. Let us give him half of what he is asking or about 60k and move forward. That is a few dollars more than a Naperville Officer makes in one year excluding the massive benefits package.

You seem like you really do have a great head on your shoulders besides caring, Councilman Bob.

We have already budgeted or spent 1 million on this 120k lawsuit. If it goes to the Supreme Court it will cost us 5 million dollars easily. How could we not at least consider spending 60k to get rid of a potentail 5 million. The litigation numbers for Disctrict 204 are staggering as we all have read. If we settle for 60k it will cost each household a little over a dollar. A cup of coffee for God's sake. He has saved us each 100 times that on our water bills. Let us make a deal and make peace with the guy. I doubt he is pushing around any city employees after his reprimand.

An additional 5 million cost to taxpayers in this tough economic environment is unbearable especially since it relates to egos from both sides.

Thanks for being with us CM BOB!

You also got my vote in the next election. Are you runnng or retiring?

Just checked out this thread and I see some questions directed to me. I'll try to get answers and post them quickly. ~CB.

"Are police doing a good job in Naperville?"

Well today's evening rush hour around 5PM on west bound Ogden Avenue was another fine example of Naperville Police Department incompetence and apathy.

Some moron of a city sub-contractor working on the sewer relining project took Ogden Avenue down to one lane at Royal Saint George and traffic was back all the way up to Naper Boulevard.

There were even Naperville Police cars sitting in this traffic mess and they obviously have no clue and no training on how to handle workers causing major traffic jams in the city. HELLO! Ogden Avenue is a STATE ROUTE. The state controls and issues permits to anyone who wants to close a lane on a state route and the state only permits lane closures between 9AM and 3 PM! Here two full hours after the land should be restored and it is totally obvious no one in the city who is responsible for managing this contractor gave them proper instruction.

The bad thing about illegal lane closures like this is that at 5PM even the state DOT office is closed so nothing can be done to file a complaint until tomorrow. For future reference if anyone sees a lane closure on a state route before 9AM or after 3PM a complaint can be filed with IDOT at (847) 705-4000. I do know firsthand that they investigate and follow-up on complaints. At least the state is trying to help minimize traffic congestion and delays which is more that I can say about the Napeville Police Department.

We shouldn't get too carried away with the police pensions, which clearly need some attention if they are $50 MM underfunded.

The real "Death Star" from a tax increase point of view are the two school districts. These increases are helping to drive our employers and employees away. Driving our engineering jobs out of Naperville is not going to help with the math scores.

We could call high taxes the dark side of the force.

Darth Thom,

Start warming up you light saber and turn on the droids ;-)

PS I can't wait for Clone Wars to hit the theater!

On the next contract their needs to be benchmarking done with other communities. Less should be paid in safer communities. Pensions need to be brought in line with private companies because now it appaears that public employees earn as much as private employees and have better pensions. If they strike or fake the flu, they should be replaced. It's time to get costs under control.

Ken, Jackie and anyone else:

We could all meet at Bailey and Oxford and hang out there buying things from the store owners: food, groceries, goods, etc and talk things out which would be more productive than doing it via the blog.

Kill multiple birds with one stone.

Paul, I am called an idiot because you and your ilk cannot attack the message, so you attack the messenger. That type of debate chased away CM Bob. He has been attacked more than once, and has mentioned that you conspiracy nuts keep him away from these blogs more than once. Yes, I did have fun with the moderator suggestion, and yes, you are still acting in the predictable cult fashion about it even after I admitted it was a joke. Half the problem with you napergatians is that you have no sense of humor. The other half the napergatian problem is that most of you cannot debate without sounding like idiots and attacking those who do not agree with you.

Take this topic, for example. No one has countered the argument that Naperville pays better to attract the best candidates for police or fire. No one has countered the argument that if Naperville wants their police or fire personnel to be involved in the community and therefore care about the community, they should be able to afford to live in the community. At a starting salary of $56,397 (not the $60,000 the liars are claiming), that is barely manageable. No one seems to acknowledge the fact that these are not typical blue collar workers, but college graduates that are law enforcement professionals. All you can do is say that the numbers some internet neophyte that needs all night to do a simple search must be true, because you agree with them.

This is the whole gist of the napergate argumet:
-Naperville is paying to much for police protection (Nevermind the low crime rate)
-Our taxes on our McMansions went up, so let's screw the public servants out of what our elected officials approved for pay and benefits.
-We don't care about getting the best officers and firemen, we want any idiot that will accept low pay in charge of law enforcement and stopping fires.
-Cut the police force everywhere except for my subdivision; I want to see a squad in my subdivision 24/7/365.

That pretty much covers the main points, although there are many subtle variations thrown in. As I have stated many times, I cannot wait for the napergate slate of candidates to run on this platform. Of course, it will never happen because their hero has tired of doing it all himself and gone back to his quiet life away from those who are not willing to put themselves or their money on the line.

Jackie, why do you keep bringing out the tired lies that Joe and I, or anyone else who dares to question your opinion are the same person? Joe and I have both offered to meet anyone in person who doubts us. I even suggested a blogger's meet night so all you who are afraid of your own shadow could meet en masse. I noticed none of you are interested in that; could it be because the mighty napergate 500 would turn out to be 5 or 6? I know one of your members admitted posting under multiple names here; I wonder how many others do?

Just to clarify a couple of points...

Naperville hires only college grads for rookie police officer positions. Very few communities have this requirement. Many do not require anything beyond high school diploma which is the reason the police training academy exists. But in the blind way the system works everyone, including college grads must go thru the acadamy. Some communities do require some college, the average is only 30 hours of credit.

A 21 year old college graduate would be eligible to retire from the Naperville Police force at age 41 with a lifetime pension of 50% of final salary. They can also retire after 30 years at 75%. They can also keep working... no one forces them to retire.

_______________________________________________

What I would like to see from Councilman Bob are some hard numbers showing annual turnover, esp since the year when the college degree requirement was implemented. I'd also like to see some data that shows what these officers are doing after they retire from Naperville and we keep paying their retirement salary. How many officers "retire" from Naperville Police Department and go on to take a command assignment at another police department?

Maybe I'm wrong, but... in my opinion, a basic police officer is basically a blue collar job and it does not require a college degree. Administrative/command officers that are running the department, certainly; but not basic beat officers. If all of the officers have degrees then they are basically as educated as the command management was in years past. That means we either no longer need to structure command management as it has been done historically and we need to move to a more self-managed work force like most of private industry or the net result is that we are just hoarding all of the college educated officers and providing a training ground for future command officers for other police departments. The basic question is that if this is the case, then why we are doing this? My vote is to let other communities pay for the training and grooming of their own future command management.

Police officers should not be allowed to retire at age 41 or even 51. They should be kept working until age 65 like the rest of the workforce. There are already enough provisions in the law to take care of them and their families if they become disable in the line of duty. If police officers do not like having to work to age 65 like the rest of us then maybe they need to find another line of work.

By T.B. on June 26, 2008 7:46 AM
Jackie –
While I did post that an NPD officer has a higher starting salary than an associate staff attorney, I have no doubt that an attorney will out-earn a cop and have a better retirement even without a pension.

T.B.

##############################

TB,

I can not see too many attorneys out-earning Mr. Bob Marshall. He had a salary of nearly $115,000 before retiring with unimaginable benefits worth at least another $40k.

Plus he is retired and collecting 85k while working for those who reitred him for another $175k or $180k. And he has another pension in the works right now.

I bet less than 1% of the attorneys can measure up to this guy. Basically most cops have a salary and a pension after they hit 51 unless they want to be lazy. Most are not!

I will take you up on a bet that Naperville Cops will out earn must attorneys over the span of their lives. And I did not even mention OT. I am willing to guess Mr. Marshall with his seniority cranked at least 160k a year with OT plus his 40k in benfits for a cool 200k before he retired to his pension and second job with the same city that pensionalized him!

It is very understandable why Naperville is finally broke!

By T.B. on June 25, 2008 1:47 PM
Jackie –

CM Bob said he tries to stay tuned into the Potluck threads, but he tunes out when they become nothing more than personal attacks. I believe he’d stay with us more (and more often) if the tone of the debate is more civil. Maybe this is something we could all strive to do? Maybe disagreeing with Ken without calling him an “idiot” would be a good place to start?

--------------------------------------------------------------------

TB,
I have not seen anyone attack CM BOB. Not one person. People appreciate what he did and is doing. Maybe he is busy! He will be back. He can take the heat unlike the other council members who are in hibernation while the City Manager implements and executes policy singlehandedly like a control freak as one insider pointed out!

Ken is called an idiot because he wants to be called an idiot. He thrives on any attenion he gets...it does not matter whether it is positive or negatives....it is strictly for his rises.

He even admitted he asked the Ted for the job of Moderator just so he can be rejected and get a rise and reaction. He stated he got what he wanted.

I don't think you need to be putting Ken and CM Bob in the same paragraph or comparing them in any way.

Let us not sully CM BOB's reputation by bringing Ken near him. I really would not waste my time defending Ken. He is an IDIOT! Idiots should not defended by rational people!

The man thought he could do a better job in 10 minutes than Diana did in a full night researching police salaries. He poked fun at her! Well her numbers are holding out weeks later while his number for his own town was WRONG!

Are you telling me a man who pokes fun at a lady who takes these issues seriously is NOT an IDIOT?

Jackie –

I don’t think your argument is totally without merit, but one of the things I stated was that I don’t know if the high starting salary is getting Naperville the highly educated, trained, and motivated candidates the city seeks. Are the starting NPD officers 21 or 22 as you stated, or are we hiring away other departments’ best officers to come here? Does anyone know the answer to this?

While I did post that an NPD officer has a higher starting salary than an associate staff attorney, I have no doubt that an attorney will out-earn a cop and have a better retirement even without a pension.

T.B.

Brinley,

I don't see what your problem is with the Napergate Man and Napergatians. They are trying to watch for YOUR tax dollar as well as their tax dollars.

Instead of worrying about their numbers, you should join them and add to their numbers.

We do finally have a crisis in this town.

The Napergate Man did not watch the City Council for 6-7 years and we all see what happened. It is really a disaster from these parking decks to the police and fire pensions.

Spending, spending and more spending. Taxing, taxing and more taxing!

It really has gotten very bad and unaffordable. I think if gas prices did not rise the city council could have survived this crisis for another year. But because of gas prices, I do not believe residents will tolerate the tax crisis for another year.

Something has to be done! Something has to give! None of us knew that a police officer out of college was getting a starting salary of 60k plus benefits possibly equaling half his/her starting salary! Now that we know, is anyone really surprised we have been unknowingly taken to the cleaners?

Whose side is the City Council on....the residential taxpayers or the police and firemen? Who do they represent here? They need to represent us and let the unions represent them!

Mr. Ted,

While I would never pretend to speak for the entire E. Indian community in Naperville, I can tell you that many of my E. Indian friends are having trouble understanding the workings in City Hall.

In India we bargain and negotiate even for a pair of shoes. So we are puzzled that we are not negotiating for a better price with our police and fire unions.

I think we have excellent service in this town...but many E. Indians are beginning to ask at what price?

We may not be as vocal as the Napergatians but for the most part we do agree with them. They do make sense. I understand them to want to bargain a fair price for city services. That is what we do in India. I would like to see more of it done here in Naperville to bring our taxes down.

Airplane ticket prices to India have reached $2200 dollars. Most of us can no longer afford a visit anymore with these gas prices. If our real estate taxes continue going up, I doubt any of us will ever be able to visit India and see relatives in this lifetime.

Please do your best to keep police and fire expenses down as much as possible.

Thanks!

By Bubo on June 25, 2008 4:20 PM
Jackie,

6. The housing bubble is so inflated that most houses in Naperville now appear to be nearing $500K. Even a thousand houses paying double the taxes from 8 to 16K isn't going to make the nut for the city.

7. Are the tax increases driving businesses and residents out of Naperville? It appears yes.

##############################################################

Bubo,

I think we have a crisis. I agree with you that houses have declined in value. But keep in mind our city council will deal with this deflation in pricing not by allowing us to have lower taxes, but by increasing our TAX RATES to maintain their outlandish expenditures.

If for example our houses declined from an average of 750k to 500k, we will not save 33% on our tax bills. Our TAX RATE will increase by 50% to compensate for this 33% decline. If expenses did not hold steady and our city expenses increased yet another 20%, our tax rate may have to increase 80% to compensate for the difference. I am not a mathmetician so I hope I got my math right!

I do also agree with you that higher taxes are driving residents and businesses out of town. I believe Amoco is an example of a company fleeing. Many homes are now empty. Builders are stuck with their McMansions. They will eventually sell, but for substantially below the amount it cost to build!

As Naperville develops a reputation for HIGH TAXES, newcomers will be scarce and far between. The word has been getting out so I hope our City Council takes note!

Jackie and Anonymous,

You both make a lot of sense. A Portillo's manager makes the same in Aurora, Bolingbrook or Naperville. He does not get paid more because he works at a Portillo's in Naperville. They advertize in the Tribune for their managers and they offer the same starting salary in all localities.

If union plumbers charged 175 dollars an hour in Naperville, while Bolingbrook plumbers charged 90 dollars an hour, most Napervillian residents except for possibly TB and Ken, would just call the Bolingbrook plumber and save the 85 dollars an hour. Same thing with electricians. Good point anonymous and since they are unionized your point even becomes more clear.

I see no reason why we should pay our cops more than surrounding towns just because we may be richer. We are richer but we also have a 51 million hole we need to climb out of. Obviously, we have been paying more than we can afford. Let us see if we can even afford to pay market!

Brinley,

I think all McFarland was saying was that for each person that writes there maybe 100 others who feel like him or her that do not write.

I tend to believe on this wasteful spending and tax issue, there are easily 30,000 to 50,000 upset residents. It is natural to be upset when your city taxes go up 20% and you are being told we have pension plans that are nearly 51 million in the deficit!

I sincerely doubt the majority will write. But I expect the majority that are upset will find time to vote. Usually extraordinary tax increases will motivate the most passive of residents to go out and vote!

I suspect this is what will happen and I suspect this is what McFarland meant. I can not imagine upset taxpayers staying home and not voting next Feburary in the primaries! We will just have to wait and see!

Brinley,
I will answer all your questions. But just so you don't take me for a fool, I would like to be on record stating that you are Joe. If not Joe, than Ken!

The word syntax has never been used by anyone on this blog site other than Joe. Joe always used the identical arguments that since there are so many people of the 300-500 writing similarly they must all be the same person or no more than a dozen. I just don't think there are 300-500 different writing styles so you are going to find many people in a group this large with similar writing styles and many with different writing styles.

Anyway now what we got that out of the way let me see if I can tell Joe/Ken why homes in Naperville cost more. You guys could not get a real girl in a year and a half, so you finally made a girl...I did not know boys could deliver but you guys came through like champs!
How was the delivery by the way...lol...?

----------------------------------------------------------

Here are some reasons homes cost more in Naperville:

1. One reason homes are more expensive in Naperville is land is more expensive.

2. During the bubble an acre of land in Naperville would fetch a cool million. In Plainfield an acre was 90k. In Aurora about 200k.

3. The value of land to a great extent is derived from scarcity. Supply and demand forces take place and can be powerful! Land for building in Naperville is or was so expensive due to SCARCITY, that buyers began buying old homes for demolition as it was cheaper than buying raw land.

4. If a buyer, buys an acre lot for a million dollars in Naperville, he is putting up a 2 million dollar home on it. No one buys a million dollar lot to put a half a million dollar home on it.

5. Homes are more expensive in Naperville also partially because the schools are better than surrounding towns especially in Disctrict 203 where there is much less chaos than District 204. (The taxes are much lower in District 203 when factoring in INFRASTRUCTURE for District 204 schools!)

6. Naperville is closer to the High Tech Corriodor on the Reagan Highway or I 88. People will pay more for a home that is closer to work. Naperivlle is closer than Plainfied and Bolingbrook...thus the premium in both land and home prices.

7. Naperville has a train that goes thru the middle of it into Chicago. I recall the express can make it into Chicago in 22 minutes. Plainfied does not. People want to live close to the train station in order to avoid wasting time and gas every morning and evening. More so now with gas skyrocketing! It is a 45 minute to one hour drive to the Naperville train station from Plainfield. One night(3am in the morning) it took me 50 minutes to drive from the extreme NE corner of Naperville to the extreme SW corner of Plainfield. In rush hour I bet it could be an hour and a half. Don't know as I would never dare to try it! Plainfield is huge and has tons of undeveloped farmland. Land will be cheap there for at least another decade. I suspect if you buy a one acre lot now for 50-75k, you will be able to sell it for a half a million in a decade or two. But it will never reach Naperville levels on pricing due to location. LOCATION, LOCATION and LOCATION is also part of higher home prices EQUATION in Naperville.

8. Naperville has less of a gang problem than surrounding suburbs. People will pay more for a home in a peaceful town than a gang infested town. Most people know that a $600k home put on wheels and dragged from Aurora into Naperville will have a value of $1,000,000 as soon as it crosses the border. Every realtor will tell you that!

9. Notice how badly people in White Eagle and Tall Grass want to pretend they live in Naperville. They even got Naperville addresses even though they are in Aurora and all their services are from Aurora. This may have increased the value of a 600k home to 650-700k but not to a million. People are not stupid! Aurora has turned off the water once or twice to gently remind these 2 subdivisions they are Aurorans and not Napervillians. It has worked. The signs now say Welcome to Aurora after the water was turned off 15 year or so again. We all know how badly those 2 subdivsions wanted their kids to attend school in Naperville as opposed to Aurora. They even filed a lawsuit but lost it!

10. Naperville has a nice downtown and riverwalk that increases the values of homes in Naperville. The closer a home is to downtown Naperville, the more expensive it is. Obviously most Naperville homes are closer to downtown Naperville than Bolingbrook, Romeoville and Plainfied, thus the added value to the home. A river flowing through your town will also always add a little value.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Having said all of the above, I would like to say as taxes continue to rise in Naperville, homes will lose their value. If our homes are taxed in the future at 4% instead of 2% of fair market price, the values of our home will decline immensely. This may be happening as the city council has not been able to control expenses. Factor in the fact that the 5% tax increase cap of STATE RULE was eliminated, and one can easily observe the opening of the floodgates to bring down the value of our homes in future years

Would you want a million dollar home in a town with a 20,000 dollar tax bill or in a town with 40,000 dollar tax bill? I suspect you would go for the 20,000 dollar tax bill if the city services are equal and the education is good.

We really are not getting any better service from a Naperville cop than we could get from a New York or St. Louis cop. But paying almost twice as much. As you all know we are $50.5 million in the red just with police and firemen pensions.

If we have to raise our taxes one day to 4% instead of 2% of market value, I believe we will see a real decline in home value. I see that happening if we don't file bankruptcy and start all over again with an emphasis on controlling costs like our forefathers once did!

That is my 2 cents worth! I hope I finally answered all your questions, Joe...I mean Ken! Sorry, Brinley, but I do not think you exist since neither Joe or Ken have female reproductive capacities or abilities!

Brinley,

I challenge you to find me one copy and paste posting in all the Napergate Posts.

You won't be able to because Napergatians do not plagiarize each other even though they have similar thoughts and feelings about the issue.

Maybe they quote but they acknowledge when they quote.

But really show me on incident where a Napergatian just copied and pasted another Napergatians words.

With 300-500 Napergatians posting you will find similar grammar especially when the grammar is proper grammar.

I will address all your other questions some time tonight.

I will very easily explain why home prices differ from town to town in another post.

That is an easy one!

Host Ted has access to IP numbers and he knows if similar people are posting under different names. He had already called a few out and if you recall they turned out to be different posters at Dunkin Donuts using a wireless internet that gave them identical IP numbers.

The Naperville Sun knows more than I do as they have all the necessary access to answer your questions of how many posters there really are. I bet they would find out that the city posters are the ones that are doubling up if there is any doubling up!

I was proud to use my name all day today and found no need to use another persons name. Most people don't from both sides!

Jackie on June 25, 2008 4:54 PM

Ok Jackie I'll have my crow barbecued - I stand corrected on the number of Napergatian Bloggers. The reference from McFarland does only give 300-500, but his total of those interested in the case goes on to indicate there are 30,000 - 50,000: So I guess your comment about Shameless was incorrect as well? Are these Napergatians, or is McFarland claiming that this many agree with the Napergatians - the implication that there are this many is quite a stretch isn't it?

McFarland on March 17, 2008 12:18 PM
The 300-500 posters on the Napergate Threads since their inception represent at least 100 times that amount of people who are concerned about an issue but mostly don't write. This indicates that maybe 30,000-50,000 residents are interested in the Napergate Man and this latest case.

If there are really 30-50K interested in the NGM why don't you mobilize? Interesting to note that you didn't answer my other questions in my post. Why are comparable homes priced differently in Naperville than Aurora, Plainfield or Bolingbrook? Why don't you utilize the e-mail list of 7,000 - 10,000 that Marshall talked about on the Commuters Stuck with Tickets thread?:

Marshall on June 19, 2008 1:38 PM mail it to NAPERGATE@yahoo.com and it will be sent to 7-10k NAPERGATIANS in a mass e-mail

If you are such an organized group I will ask again: Why aren't you running the city? I know, I know, you are all waiting for the NGM to start running ads again right? That will really show the establishment you are battling? In looking back over the old Napergate thread it was also interesting to note the number of copy and paste postings, similar grammer, syntax and sentence structure from people using different names. I'll concede that McFarland said 300-500, but I think the real number of Napergatians is much, much less.

By T.B. on June 25, 2008 1:47 PM
Jackie –

Thus, the Naperville cop may be better educated, better trained, or have more experience than one from Bolingbrook or elsewhere.

____________________________________________________________________

TB,
I think most of the focus on these threads started with Diana diggging up comparitive STARTING SALARIES. That is where the focus has been!

Most cops who are starting their careers at 21 or 22 do not have any EXPERIENCE. Thus EXPERIENCE is not a a factor.

The surrounding communities Diana listed required a college degree.
Thus EDUCATION is not an issue unless Naperville is hiring Harvard and Yale criminal justice students which I do not believe is the case, and if it was, it is not really necessary to have IVY League Cops.

All these suburbs send their cops to the same Illinois Police Academy for TRAINING. They get the same TRAINING as our cops get from the same exact institutions.

A former top Naperville Captain is leading Bolingbrook and I am sure he did not go there to lower the standards for Bolingbrook cops. I am sure he demands of his cops in Bolingbrook no less than he demanded in Naperville.

The difference appears simply that our City Council does not do their homework and appears to needlessly give away our taxpayer money!

Paying Naperville Police Officers a starting salary of 60k and benefits that are unheard of plus great full 75% pensions at age 51, just seems a bit much. We are all feeling it on our real estate tax bills and it is rather PAINFUL!

Do you agree, TB?

I beleive it was one of your posts, TB, that uncovered that a Naperville Police Officer starts out at a higher salary than a starting attorney. Needless to say the benefits of the Naperville Police Officer are also 10 times better!

__________________________________________________________________

I was shocked to read "By Anonymous on June 25, 2008 12:07 PM" that a St. Louis Police Officer maxes out after 30 years at $55,447. Can you imagine a Naperville Police Officer starts at 4k more than a St. Louis Police Officer ends his career! St. Louis is not in China or India. It borders our state. Let us get real in this town!

Brinley tried to make a very good point about price comparisons between product costs at places like McD's, Portillo's, Best Buy, etc.

Of course the worst case example of the location-based pricing is ruthless, vulture-like pricing used by the big oil companies to extort every last penny out of us... but let's save that rant for another blog.

In my opinion, a better example of wage comparison, esp. union wage comparison would be to look at union electricians, plumbers, carpeneters, ironworkers, etc. These tradesmen can practice their craft in any number of locations through-out the Chicago metropolitan area and they make the same pay no matter where they are working. The pay doesn't vary based upon Wheaton, Aurora, or Naperville or anywhere else for that matter.

There should be one uniform pay scale established throughtout the greater metropolitan Chicago area for all police and firement the same as it exists for other blue collar workers. Being a policeman doesn't vary from city to city so why should the pay scale? The positive benefit of this is that a metropolitan wide pay-scale would definitely be negotiated to a true and fair market value and it would end all of this nonsense of one community competeing with other communities for officers based upon pay. Let's face it, being a police officer in Naperville even if the pay is the same as anywhere else in the metro area will still be a plum assignment considering the low risk and low crime so we will still have our pick of the best applicants.

This is such a no-brainer that we need to expand this concept throughout the ranks of city hall. Once we get that mess squared away we can move on to address the same issues with the teachers union.

By Brinley on June 25, 2008 12:07 PM
Jackie on June 25, 2008 9:43 AM

and McFarland even claimed that 3-5 thousand napergatians post on the blogs, but they only represent 10% of the total Napergatian group - meaning there are 30,000 to 50,000 active Napergatians? With this kind of power this group should be running the city. Don't wait for the NGM to do everything, if everyone chipped in $1 you could run an ad every week.

____________________________________________________________________

Brinley,

I know McFarland and I read all his posts as you probably did. He and no Napergatian ever said that 3-5 thousand Napergatians post on this blog site. You are the first one to ever say that. I thought it was important to shut down your rumor before you shamelessly spread it.

Most Napergatians have estimated 300-500 Napergatians have posted at one time or another. I think one lady named Patricia listed half of them by name when challenged 6 months ago just be reviewing the last Napergate Thread which had 900 plus posts. I believe this was the Sun's largest thread ever. I don't think ghosts were posting and most of the letters were very long. That thread was easily the size of several books.

Not all Napergatians are active year round. Most city supporters are not active year round. One thing that can be noticed on this blog site is that there are at least 10 times as many Napergatians as City Supporters. Many Napergatians no longer identify themselves or mention Napergate in their threads for fear of being accused of taking over the threads. Many are simply respecting Jim's and Ted's wishes to tone it down and they have!

Again, when the Napergatians were frustrated the most in 1995, they went out and elected their Napergate Slate. All 4 of their candidates that year were endorsed. Ghosts could not have voted! Election monitors exist at these election booths to prevent double voting!

Again the 7,000 to 10,000 number thrown around includes activists, supporters and sympathizers. Napergatians have many symathizers in town. Napergatians' focus right now is on high taxes and wasteful city spending. I believe they will have the majority on their side when it comes time to vote. (McFarland may have said 3,000 to 5,000 active Napergatians but you added the 0's and made them 30,000 to 50,000 to spread a lie...how SHAMELESS)

What bothers and puzzles me is how to keep those we elect straight? Apparently some of those that the Napergate Man trusted and endorsed have gone crooked. I won't name any names but anyone who has read these blogs knows who they are. It seems like the City of Naperville has the ability to buy some of the council members once they are elected.

They offer them nice pensions, full health insurance benefits worth $12,000 a year, life insurance benefits, pay their cell phone for them, pay their internet service for them, and a $10,000 dollar salary for attending 24 city council meetings each year. That is $416.66 for each meeting. One meeting was less than an hour long!

If you add salary and benefits, they are paid about $1000 dollars per city council meeting. You think for that kind of money they would have read every fine line in the City Financial Report. Hmmmm!

It seems like most of them missed page 66 that stated the police and firemen pension were in the hole to the tune of $50.5 million. Or maybe they did not comprehend what they were reading.

Here is a challenge to you, Brinley, to help you restore your credibility. Find the post where McFarland said there are 3-5k Napergatians posting here on this Blog Site. If you do, I will eat crow. If you don't you can feast on the crow! Deal!!!

Jackie,

1. Since Naperville is where the money is, how is it that gang activity is effectively controlled and minimized?

2. It's true that Naperville has its share of gang affiliated want to be's, but don't fool yourself there are some real ones here too. We have about a dozen predatory child molesters living in Naperville, why not some armed drug dealers and organized car break in gangs stealing GPS devices?

3. Are all policemen the same, like any profession or trade, quality varies? The best usually costs a premium.

4. Are the pensions for the PD and Fire departments broken, from reading the facts that are presented on this board regarding a $50 Million dollar deficit, I would say yes.

5. One reason why we may need so many firemen is that the commercial buildings and residential complexes are still being built out of wood to maximize the profits for the builders and shaft the city with the liability of wooden structures.

6. The housing bubble is so inflated that most houses in Naperville now appear to be nearing $500K. Even a thousand houses paying double the taxes from 8 to 16K isn't going to make the nut for the city.

7. Are the tax increases driving businesses and residents out of Naperville? It appears yes.

Jackie –

Interesting post. You touched on a number of questions and issues so I thought I’d try to address some of them.

CM Bob said he tries to stay tuned into the Potluck threads, but he tunes out when they become nothing more than personal attacks. I believe he’d stay with us more (and more often) if the tone of the debate is more civil. Maybe this is something we could all strive to do? Maybe disagreeing with Ken without calling him an “idiot” would be a good place to start?

“Poor Ted has to file FOI after FOI to learn anything about the City of Naperville” because that’s his (and The Sun’s) job—to gather info. I don’t think anyone would want to read any articles about the city if the only facts presented are those the city WANTED to release as opposed to facts the city is FORCED to release by law because of a FOIA request.

I’m not sure I can answer your tax questions, but they’re very valid. How is it that the tax base is increasing, but revenues are still falling short? I would hope the answer is that it’s just a matter of time before the “McMansion tax base” kicks in and helps pay more bills. I know when you put on an addition you can freeze you taxes for a short time, but I don’t think this applies to complete tear-downs so what gives?

While I’m sure to get some comments about this topic, I’d like to point out that fire department staffing is not based on the actual number of fires in the city but is based on what is deemed necessary to cover the city in case of emergency based on the number of structures and population. Saying the fire department should be cut because the number of fires is down is like advocating dropping your car or homeowner’s insurance because you haven’t had an accident in a while. What happens when you actually need that insurance?

While I’m sure there’s some down time to being a Naperville fire fighter, they are also some of the best trained in the state. You can see the dive and ice rescues being practiced pretty much every weekend at the beach during the winter. Maybe they don’t make many ice/water rescues each year, but if my child fell through the ice I’d sure feel better knowing our department is trained and equipped for the situation.

I’m not sold on your McDonald’s reference. Sure the price of a cheeseburger is the same in Naperville as in Bolingbrook, but the cheeseburger is also the same in both places. The point of paying a higher salary in Naperville is to hopefully attract a higher quality applicant. Thus, the Naperville cop may be better educated, better trained, or have more experience than one from Bolingbrook or elsewhere. In this case, the Naperville “cheeseburger” is not the same as others and thus is not a fungible good as you have assumed. If the two cities are attracting the same applicants, then obviously the higher salary isn’t justified. But I haven’t seen any facts on this one way or the other.

I know the Naperville fire department hires personnel who already have fire fighter training. This may increase the starting salary, but also saves the city the cost of training a fire fighter. Many other departments pay for a new fire fighter’s training and there’s always the possibility that the applicant could wash out of training, leaving the city with nothing to show for their expense.

While we do have wanna-be gangbangers in Naperville, don’t kid yourself that we don’t have any of the real variety, too. The gangbangers who committed the murder you referred lived outside of Naperville, but they committed the crime HERE. What don’t you get about that? Do you think that your “real gangbangers” in Aurora and elsewhere are somehow constrained by the city limits? Do you think they never venture into our fair city?

Just some food for thought.

T.B.

Jackie on June 25, 2008 9:43 AM

Does McDonald's charge more in Naperville for the same product than they do in Bolingbrook? No! Does Portillos' charge more in Bolingbrook? No! Does Best Buy charge more in Aurora than Bolingbrook! It is all the same price regardless of wealth of the community.

_____________________________________________

Jackie, using your logic then why does a two story, four bedroom 2500 square foot home cost more in Naperville than in Bolingbrook, Plainfield and Aurora? They are comparable sizes and the same product. You have good points in the fact that your taxes have been going up at an exceeding rate. Mine have too and I don't like it. I do not think you make a strong argument by talking about McDonalds and portillo's as examples.

Your second post, as so many other Napergate posts do, touts the strength of this group. How many times have we heard the size of this group as 3 - 4 thousand? Another claims 7,000 are on an active e-mail list, and McFarland even claimed that 3-5 thousand napergatians post on the blogs, but they only represent 10% of the total Napergatian group - meaning there are 30,000 to 50,000 active Napergatians? With this kind of power this group should be running the city. Don't wait for the NGM to do everything, if everyone chipped in $1 you could run an ad every week.

For those of you who have questioned the starting pay of Naperville Police Officers, consider this... starting pay for New York City police officers is $35,881 per year.

Now think about the cost of living in New York City vs the cost of living in Naperville... add in to that the danger of being a New York City policeman vs the danger of being a Naperville policeman.

To put the starting salaries of some other cities in perspective here are just a few:

$41,697 DuPage County Sheriff
$43,104 Chicago Police Department
$48,192 Illinois State Police

$44,612 Washington, DC
$43,597 San Diego, CA
$42,829 Boston, MA
$42,697 Milwaukee, WI
$41,690 Dallas, TX
$39,368 Rockford, IL (3rd largest city in Illinois)
$38,416 Philadelphia, PA
$37,764 Overland Park, KS
$37,445 Springfield, IL (6th largest city in Illinois)
$37,253 Atlanta, GA
$36,874 Indianapolis, IN
$36,245 St. Louis, MO

We could also start doing comparisons on maximum pay, for example the St. Louis police officer starts out at $36,245 and can earn a maximum salary of $55,447.

And we could compare benefits like education, vacation, holidays, retirement, etc. Goodness knows what we will find...

By Anonymous on June 25, 2008 9:12 AM
To Lillian on June 24, 2008 1:30 PM:

How do you get the Napergatians going again?

____________________________________________________________________

Anonymous,
I think all that Napergate Power was rooted and founded in those Napergate full page ads. He used those ads to build his network by providing phone numbers and e-mails for residents to call or write him. I suspect after 10 years of ads, he had a very strong network that went on to build a very strong grass roots movement that could and did effect public policy. It could and did effect elections!

Nothing is easy! Everything is expensive! Complications exist! It can be done though.

I think the problem appears to be no one is willing to step up to the plate and pump the kind of money the Napergate Man pumped in those Napergate Ads. He ran most of his ads 3 times and they were all full page. Plus the Naperville Sun was very powerful in those days with a much larger circulation and deeper penetration than it has today with a much larger population in Naperville.

I think some people think this blog site can replace the Napergate ads and be the basis for a new grass roots movement. I may be wrong but I don't see thousands on this Blog Site. I simply see hundreds! More people are needed! We may be a few years away from it being effective in a serious way to influence policy!

Host Ted may be the last hope we have! He may have a minor conflict of interest as his sister is married to a former Naperville Lieutanent and that may prevent him from being able to provide the support to the community that the Napergate Man provided. But Host Ted does control the INK in town so if it was not for his minor conflict of interest, I suspect he would have been much tougher on the wasteful Naperville Police Department. Considering his conflict of interest, he is doing as much as can be expected! He needs to have peace with his brother-in-law on Easter and Christmas!

Plus, while it is Ted's duty to be a watchdog on the city and its departments, it really is not his duty to oust the existing City Council Members who border on worthless with one or 2 exceptions. That is the duty of the citizens of Naperville. I can tell you the frustration is building and usually when frustration reaches a boiling point, new leaders do emerge.

Let us hope this town gets another Napergate Man or Woman. If it ever needed one, this is the time!

Host Ted,

My real estate tax bill went up $1400 or 14% this year. Most of the worse increases were related to the City of Naperville.

I bought my house in Naperville expecting reasonable tax increases. But the tax increases in the last 5 years have not been reasonable.

I guess it all traces back to our City Council not doing a minimum job of protecting us from the excesses of City Employees. It seems like they have given them everything but the kitchen sink and here we are.

When are we going to give them the kitchen sink?

Even Council Man Bob who shows bravery for a moment here and there, seems to withdraw when the kitchen gets hot.

I suspect he did not know what he was going to encounter when he came to this blog site. But at least he is trying and helping and for that no one can complain.

Poor Ted has to file FOI after FOI to learn anything about the City of Naperville. What kind of City treats its newspaper in this fashion? Where is the transparency? What are they trying to hide?

I guess we are finding out what the Napergate Man found out 10 years ago. That this city is not on the up and up. Something is crooked about this city. I am not sure what it is. But something is crooked. That I am sure of!

I like many other are puzzled how so many McMansions could be added to our tax base the last 5 years and have taxes go up for the older NonMcMansions in this drastic way.

I bet a 1000 "million or more dollar" homes were added to our tax base the last 5 years. It seems no one built a house for less than a million since the land was a half a million to buy and it would make no sense to build an ordinary home on a lot that expensive.

But these McMansions that generated an additional $40,000,000 dollars to our tax base have not reduced taxes. My calculation is based on the average McMansion being 2 million dollars and paying 2% in real estate taxes or $40,000 dollars. Yes, that is a cool $40,000,000 with much of it to the City of Naperville.

How much does it cost to pick up branches, recycling, or garbage in frot of a McMansion? How much does it cost for a police officer to drive by once or twice a year? The same as the $300,000 dollar house the McMansion replaced after demolition. Where did all this excess money from the McMansions go to!

Our tax dollars should have gone down because of the McMansions! Our tax rates should have gone down because of the McMansions!

It appears they took all this extra money and squandered it on the police and fire department. Do the relatives and friends of the Council Members have cushy jobs there? Fires are down 50% but there has been no cut in our Fire Department personnel! Why may I dare to ask?

At least take some of the Fireman and make them Police Officers if you don't want to lay them off. Let us get rid of the Police OT. We are stuck with a fireman's pension so we may as well make him a police officer. It won't cost us a penny more in pension and he could do more as a police officer than a fireman shuffling cards all day and sparkling his red engine.

I think it should be a no brainer that we should put a freeze on hiring any more firemen for the next decade. We don't need 200 firemen for 10 fires a year? What do they do in their spare time...cook gourmet dinners while being on the taxpayer time clock? The rest of us are not allowed to cook on the job! How come the fire department has OT...that makes no sense to me?

The city council should take a first step immediately and that is reduce the starting salaries of both police and firemen to 45k which would still be above market rate for surrounding communities.
Who cares if there is another city council in the NW suburbs giving 53k to its police officers in average pay as Ken says he found! If they want to be stupid like Vallego, CA. more power to them. We should not be stupid and follow the stupid council decisions made across the country each day. Let us make smart and wise council decsions.

A former Napervile Cop is running the Bolingbrook Police Dept and he seems to think 45k is plenty for his cops. He is higher than Romeoville and Aurora. Apparently, he is a smart police chief and realized paying 60k as in Naperville is very unwise. I am sure he would be paying less if Naperville was not paying so much. Naperville puts unfortunate competitive upward pressure on Police Chief Ray McCury with these ridiculous salaries they pay out.

Does McDonald's charge more in Naperville for the same product than they do in Bolingbrook? No! Does Portillos' charge more in Bolingbrook? No! Does Best Buy charge more in Aurora than Bolingbrook! It is all the same price regardless of wealth of the community.

I guess there is an idiot on these blog sites, I think his name is Ken, who thinks cops should charge more in Naperville because Naperville is wealthier. I never heard such outlandish stupidity in my life.

Does the manager at Portillo's in Naperville make more than the manager at Portillo's in Bolingbrook because Naperville is wealthier. How ludicrous? The better manager probably makes a little more because he is efficient not because he is in a wealthier or poorer town.

Cops should not be paid more because a town is wealthy! They should be paid what they are worth on the competitive market! They should be paid a little more in high risk areas and a little risk in low risk areas. It is really hard for me to understand how a Naperville Cop makes more money than an Aurora cop who is fighting gang bangers with sawed off shot guns.

We have a few wanna bee gang bangers in town. The real gangbangers are in Aurora, Joliet and Chicago. None of the gangbangers who killed that boy were from Naperville...that should tell you something! They were invited into the home of the young man they killed by that same young man. He brought everything onto himself, unfortunately! Drugs have a way of killing you in more ways than one!

Sorry to get off subject but my point is I am not willing to continue paying tax increases that allow cops to live like Kings and Princes upon retirement at age 51. I have kids to raise and support. I have my only retirement to save for which does not have one penny yet. I can not afford to build retirements worth 3 million dollars for each cop in town by the time they turn 51, while I am still trying to build a retirement nest egg for myself worth a 100k by the time I turn 65.

At the current interest rates we need $3,000,000 dollars in the bank earning 2.83% to pay City Manager Marshall his $85,000 a year retirement pension. This is INSANITY! Stock market returns are bogus as they disappear suddenly as in the 2000-2002 bubble. Could also be why the Pension Funds for the City Police and Fire Fighers are depleted drastically!

How many civilians can accumulate that kind of money? And I am sure with his $113,000 salary before he retired at age 51 he had saved plenty of other money for his retirement. And he is not even retired as we dumbies in the City of Naperville are paying him another 175k while he works in his "retirement." And we are building another pension for him. OMG! If this is not INSANE, what the h@ll is!

Common City council! Have you guys lost your heads! Were you elected to protect us from the likes of Marshall or to just give him the keys to City Hall and walk away?

To Lillian on June 24, 2008 1:30 PM:

How do you get the Napergatians going again?

There have been several books written recently on the strategy to "control" a city and State. Basically, they all come down to starting with local boards and such, and number one is the local School Boards.

I was very disappointed with the results of the last 203 School Board election. A self-proclaimed North coast liberal was elected to the board leadership, and immediately we were presented with typical liberal cronyism as a close supporter and friend was elavated to the Board over others who actually ran and gained votes in the election!

How do we get the Napergatians organized again to ensure our local boards (School, council, etc) are represented by folks who understand the term "fiscally responsible"?

By Joe on June 24, 2008 3:57 PM

I do support the police. I think there should be some serious reconsideration of the pensions/retirement going forward but we should be word-bound to keep what we have for whom is in the system. The shame is on our elected officials for not doing something about this sooner and we have to honor what we are committed to.

__________________________________________________________________

Joe,

I do agree with you. The shame is on our elected officials for putting us in the Grand Canyon. I simply do not think it is possible to get out of a 51.5 million hole since the hole is getting deeper each year despite our taxpayer contributions.

We do have to honor our contracts unless we petition for bankrupty. I have no problem with that. It is the law and we are allowed to do it by law.

I feel bad for the policemen and firemen because they were promised something we could not deliver. But keep in mind, they should have known if something sounds to good to be real, it probably is.

It was too good to be real. They should have known. The party is over!

I totally agree with you, Robert!

It is either we have to baby sit our council men and woman day and night or we have to abolish Home Rule!

I have better things to do than baby sit Adult Council Men and a Woman! I believe we only have one Woman!

If we abolish home rule they have to figure out a way to keep expenses within 5% of last year. If not they are in trouble, because without Home Rule they are limited to 5% tax increases.

Could you do anything to get a petition started for us Host Ted in your print edition that we can pass all over town, duplicate and put in all the retail stores.

I am sure we can get the few thousand signatures needed rather easily.

The Napergate Man got 2 petitions signed each with nearly 3500 signatures just at his liquor stores.

Since, I doubt 35,000 residents voted, I doubt we need 3500 signatures. Maybe only 1200 to 1500 signatures at the most which is 10% of the voters.

I hope you can print a sample petition in your newspapers, Host Ted, and we could take it from there.

We can force the council members to read the financial report and actually make cuts if they were limited to 5% increases.

Would that not be WONDERFUL?

We are not the richest town in America.

We are the richest town with over 100,000 poplulation.

I apologize for my error!

However, it is still inexcusable that the richest town in America with over 100,000 people has mismanaged its funds so poorly, that they are on the verge of BANKRUPTCY!

The only things that stands between SOLVENCY and BANKRUPTCY is HOME RULE.

Rescind HOME RULE and we are BANKRUPT!

Great job, City Council!

By Former Vallejo Neighbor on June 24, 2008 1:42 PM

Comparisons between Naperville and Vallejo are so far off base. Vallejo relied on one employer for many years.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Naperville also once relied on one employer being Lucent with 7400 employees in the early 80s. The buildings look great but they are basically empty of employees. So are the marvelous Tellab buildings.
Lately, as many have heard the Amoco building is also relatively empty after the emigration of 1000 employees back to Chicago for economic reasons....read high Napervile Taxes!

We have survived mostly due to a wealthy residential tax base. The residential taxpayer base has been great. But what I am hearing is they are not willing to tolerate "no limit tax" increases especially in a sinking economy.

I think the similarities between Naperville and Vallejo are great. They both led their states in paying the highest salaries for police and firemen. Naperville was paying a better pension at 75% with retirement at age 51. Vallejo unions must have heard of that, one upped them, and negotiated 90% pensions at age 50. Vallejo is now BANKUPT!

We would be BANKUPT if we were under state rule and capped to a 5% TAX INCREASE per year. The city council apparently at some time in the past convinced the residents to vote the town home rule. I guess home rule prevents BANKRUPTCY until the residents say taxes are finally unbearable and we will tolerate no more.

That is what is happening. The similarities are frightening. We need to learn from Vallejo and not pretend we are so different it could never happen here.

It is already happening. We paid the police and firemen matching funds up to 21.16% and despite this they dug a hole $51.5 million dollar deep. They can not get out of it.

____________________________________________________________________

We have 2 options in town!

1. To get them out of this hole at ENORMOUS TAXPAYER EXPENSE and continue paying them their unheard salaries and pensions for the rest of our lives and our kid's lives.

2. Or to declare bankruptcy and start all over again.

____________________________________________________________________

I suggest the latter.

Until we file bankruptcy, I suggest the City of Naperville swith to self-mangaged police pensions and limit our contributions to 10%. It will only be a band aid to hold back taxes until BANKRUPTCY is filed.

If up 21.16% matching funds will not get us out of the mess or even put a dent, I doubt 10% matching funds will do the job.

I think Chicago and the State of Illinois are both reforming their pensions.

____________________________________________________________________

If we do have some state regulations such as being required to pay 75% retirement pensions, we could make this bearable by:

1. Reducing a police officers starting salary to 40k. That would save 33% on future pension costs. it would also be a very competitive salary in line with many surrounding suburbs! Let us face it paying them 60k with full benefits and pension is ridiculous. When you factor the benefits and pension in, they are making 1.5 times what a private attorney makes out of a good university.

2. Demanding that police officers make a larger contribution into their funds while we limit taxpayers to 10%. Both of these are permissible under current laws. Just a matter of negotiating with the union again after we file BANKRUPTCY!

3.State Law does not require us to pay full health insurance for our police officers and fire fighters. After filing BANRUPTCY we can bring their benefits in line with corporate and private work forces.

___________________________________________________________________

All this could be done. It is just a matter of the City Council swallowing its ego and filing for bankruptcy.

It is rather embarrassing that the richest town in America with a great tax base could not make ends meet. It just shows you even if you are rich, that if you wasteful, you will lose it all.

Send a dumb rich guy to Las Vegas and he will come back poor.

Send our city council to negotiate with police and fire unions and the residents will be pick pocketed without even knowing it. If you have ridden on an Italian bus or subway, you know the consequences of losing your wallet shortly after being pick pocketed! We have been quietly pick pocketed in Naperville and we are feeling the afer effects.

That is what happened in NAPERVILLE, my dear fellow residents.

The similarities are great with our Sister California City. We need to file BANKRUPTCY! We need to get a FRESH START IN NAPERVILLE!

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE – MAY 23, 2008
FOR MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT JOANN WEST, PUBLIC INFORMATION
OFFICER (707) 651-7152
VALLEJO FILES BANKRUPTCY PETITION
Today, the City of Vallejo filed a petition for protection under Chapter 9 of the United States
Bankruptcy Code in the United States Bankruptcy Court for the Eastern District of California,
Sacramento Division. The City Council unanimously authorized filing the petition at its May 6,
2008 meeting.
Documents filed with the Bankruptcy Court will be available on the City webpage at
www.ci.vallejo.ca.us . Additional information regarding Chapter 9 generally is available at
www.uscourts.gov .

Lillian,

I do support the police. I think there should be some serious reconsideration of the pensions/retirement going forward but we should be word-bound to keep what we have for whom is in the system. The shame is on our elected officials for not doing something about this sooner and we have to honor what we are committed to.

That being said, I'm basically staying out of this because no one is going to budge from their position and no one on here has the power to do anything directly about it other than to complain or roll up their sleeves and actually get elected to change it.

Ken,

If you want to know why you get flamed so often, read this post. This is normal for you as is stalking people from topic to topic.

If you have a good point, by all means make it; if you find a statement to disagree with, do so, but what is this?

Maybe she has to pay for a nursing home for her mother by herself at $4K a month. Maybe she has a kid with autism and doesn't want to use it for cover on the board?

Another Marxist rant.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
By Ken on June 24, 2008 10:00 AM

I get it Maureen. You bought a million dollar home that you cannot afford. You probably have a SUV and a fancy second car you cannot afford. You are the typical Napervillian living beyond their means. You use a ridiculous example of your taxes going up $10,000 dollars a year to hide the fact that you have over extended yourself on all your credit, and now can't afford to maintain the lifestyle you think you deserve.

Comparisons between Naperville and Vallejo are so far off base. Vallejo relied on one employer for many years. That employer paid well, including sweet pensions, and employed many people. That was the Department of the Navy and Vallejo was the home of one of their largest shipyards. When the military bengan to close bases, the Vallejo Shipyard was one of the cuts. There was an immediate effect. The income level within Vallejo, and they already had a significant portion of low income residents. As unemployment rises, so does crime. And the gangs were large, active, and visible. Vallejo always had a higher crime rate and a much different reputation than two of its neighbors - Napa and Sonoma. Naperville is not dependent on one employer, does not a high crime rate, does not areas of low income resident, and does not have a large gang presence. Yes, Naperville has crime, has low income residents, and has gangs. But Naperville does not have the extent of problems that Vallejo has had to endure.

By Ken on June 24, 2008 10:00 AM

As I have said numerous times before, Maureen, writing about it here is not going to accomplish anything. The napergatians keep bragging that they have a 10,000 plus membership. They keep saying that the "establishment" members better watch out, or they might do something about it. The time for threats is past. The time for action is now. If I had a huge organization ready to go, as the napergatians claim to do, I would not be wasting my time on these blogs. I would be out in the public, organizing my slate of reform candidates and letting the public know that the tax and spend days are over.

I am still waiting for the press release from the napergatians that will indicate that is happening.

===================================================================

Ken,
The Napergate Man and the Napergatians do know how to mobilize and have mobilized. They were very influential in all city council races between 1995 to 2001 that they participated in. In one race they used their 10,000 strong membership to win all 4 seats. They could not have taken all 4 seats unless they had supporters and sympathizers to get those 10,000 voters to oust the existing sitting council members.

It could easily happen again. Of course it could happen much easier if the Napergate Man came out of retirement.

If you had been around in those years the Napergatians did not waste their energy until election time. Currently there is no election and no announced candidates. What do you expect the Napergatians to do? Go talk to a city council that does not listen!

I was a viewer in the City Council Chambers when Mr. Furstenau's 30 friends and neighbors spoke on his behalf against reprimand. The City Council did not hear a word they said. Their decison was pre-determined.

I think the Napergatians realize from having been around a long time that speaking before the City Council is a waste of time. Audiences before the city council in recent years have dwindled to a handful. The reason being is everything is cooked up ahead of time and the 3 minute public speaking time is for public relations and consumption. The city council is no longer viewed as CREDIBLE in our town! It is viewed as a bunch of PUPPETS giving city employees whatever they want as long as they get the same in the way of benefits and pension for themselves. And guess what they get the same! They get full health insurance at taxpayer expenses for working about a 100 hours a year. Their health insurance cost us 120 dollars an hour for each hour they work. Let us not discuss other benefits like their PENSIONS! I am sure the city council members use their cell phones and internet that we pay for exclusively for city business!

The current city council pretty much rubber stamps what City Management wants except for Mr. Furstenau. His punishment for daring to object to City Hall Corruption was a reprimand. Next time they may try to excommunicate him from the city council for questioning wasteful police spending. We are all doing what he did before us. He was just one step ahead of us since he had all the inside scoops and information.

If the city council listened to him and would have curbed the NPD when he was yelling, warning and screaming we would not be in this TAX CRISIS.

If is too bad CM Furstenau is not blogging with us and feeding us some more ammunition to help us get ready for the next election.

Anyway, Ken, the Napergatians took some time off from politics. Now it is a brand new ball game. They can no longer remain in idle. You can see the devastation of the city council in front of your eyes. Matching funds for pensions in excess of 21% and despite this we are 51 million in the hole and you are rooting for this incompetence. Only a psycho would root for such incompetence!

I think these threads give us a sense as to what will happen in the next election. You have no supporters for your view, Ken! Even Joe has come to reason and questioned this 21% of matching funds. He feels it is high as he is only getting 5% from his employer. You don't see Joe supporting the police as he did in the past. I am sure he still supports them but he is no longer in love with them heads over heals as you are. He realizes it was a losing battle to support their current bankrupt policies.

I really do believe whether the Napergate Man or Napergatians participate or don't participate, it is over for the majority of our city council elected officials. The next election will be about these runaway taxes. It will be about the irresponsibility of not self-imposing a 5% voluntary tax increase limit by the city council members despite having home rule powers.

The current city council members have used home rule in a very abusive manner. Instead of using home rule to call for a 4% limit on tax increases instead of the 5% limit of state rule, they abuse it and allow UNLIMITED TAX INCREASES. They have no limits! They watch no expenses. They have no conscience! They have lost it! They are no longer representing the Naperville resident and taxpayer! They are representing themselves and their buddies in City Hall who gave them their pensions such as the City Finance Director!

I am not sacrificing my home for those idiots on the city council. I am going to campaign in my subdivision and ask all my neighbors to oust our current council members except for CM Dick Furstenau.
The rest are a bunch of idiots that take orders from the City Manager instead of give him orders! They are allowing this control freak City Manager of ours to ruin the entire city. He knows little to nothing about managing a city. Where is his 20 years experience? A cop patroling the street of Naperville for 30 years does not suddenly learn how to manage a city as large as Naperville...and to think we are PAYING HIM TWICE! OMG!

Let us look for the right City Manager especially if he is going to give our city council members orders instead of take orders!

Honestly, I can't wait for the next elections. As Anonymous said, it will be a blood bath and I intend to be in the middle of it with my sleeves rolled up!

I REALLY HAD ENOUGH! AND I AM NOT LEAVING NAPERVILLE BECAUSE OF HIGHER TAXES. I PLAN ON FIGHTING THE ROOT CAUSE OF THESE HIGHER TAXES UNTIL THEY END! IF THAT DOES NOT WORK, I AM FOR THE CITY FILING BANKRUPTCY!

By gimme a break on June 24, 2008 11:12 AM
By Ken on June 23, 2008 9:28 PM

Naperville is a wealthy town, but that's what has led to the current wasteful spending. Like any government and any kid, if you give them more money they will spend it. It is nice for officials to think they are doing good by being so weak on benefits, programs and cultural spending, but it's more responsible to hold the line on costs.

We are moving into an era where government employees make more in there re-retirement and retirement years than people employed in the private sector. This is a tragedy when you consider that government does nothing to increase the Gross Domestic Product of the USA.

As a result, every dime spent on government hurts GDP - the very basis of America's strength. Weaken America, and she declines versus the rest of the world. In essence, you are unpatriotic to the Constitution in your actions.

Government should not become the best place to work. That is socialism people (communism). Having one party run everything in the USA is not going to stop the trend. Please remember that the USA is over $50 trillion in debt.

The cuts need to come now and need to be deep. Pensions, career-end bump ups, starting salaries, hiring practices (need to be open/competitive like in the private sector) all need to be on the table now.

Keep in mind that your taxes will go up even though real estate is dropping in value. Ask yourselves why that is occuring?

I think our police do a pretty darn good job.

My only complaint is that they spend too much time and effort on catching, and not enough on preventing, crime. Examples include:
>> the serious efforts put into hiding motorcycle officers on 59 to catch speeders

>>the way they prey on the local restaurant and bar scene to catch drinlers who attempt to drive (especially since the downtown parking regs are NOT conducive to parking and taking a cab)

By Ken on June 23, 2008 9:28 PM

Naperville is a wealthy town, but the way you all act here, it would seem that you are blue collar workers making $30,000 a year. If that were true, you would not be living in Naperville even with both spouses working. While times are definitely tough, the cries of poor from a wealthy suburb ring hollow.

Hilarious. I live in Naperville, and me and my spouse don't make six figures. I make about $11K, he makes less than $50K, and we still manage. Sure, we don't have a McMansion and a pair of matching Escalades, but we're not criminals or section 8 relocatees, either, despite what Brenda and Ken have led themselves to believe. Are times tough for us here? You bet. So, maybe some of those claims are valid, ladies and gentlemen.

Are Naperville police doing a great job? I think they are doing a good job. Of course they are compensated well for their work but so are cops everywhere else. I've lived in different cities and in different states in my 60 years and I would say that Naperville cops, although not perfect, are the best I've seen.

I think the nightmare begins with these 60k starting salaries and as one blogger stated escalates form there.

The high average salaries are tied to the starting salaries.

The high ending salaires are also tied to the starting salaries.

The high pensions are tied to the high ending salaries.

The high pensions are also tied to the promotional jumps right before retirement all at taxpayer expense!

I am sure life insurance is based on these high salaries.

Sometimes police and firemen are bought life insurance that is multiples of their current salary.

Health insurance for my family of 6 is $12,000 a year. My husband is self-employed and we have to pay this entire amount. It is almost unbearble. Next year we are increasing our deductible from 3k to 5k to try to reduce the annual cost.

I understand our police and firemen have full health insurance with no deductibles at taxpayer expenses. It just seems unfair that as taxpayer we have to struggle with our health insurance while everything is laid on a silver platter for them.

Why don't they pay half of their health insurance? Why does the city not have higher deductibles so their policies could be less costly to us taxpayers? Since they are getting huge pensions such as Marshall's $85,000 that can be passed on to their children, is it really necessary to buy them all this life insurance in addition to the health insurance.

Do we really have to give so much to get quality police officers? Since hundreds of suburbs pay 25k to 40k to their police officers even at 45k starting salary we would get to choose the best of all the cops from most of the suburbs. They would all want to come here.

My understanding is the only cops who can get in the Naperville Police Dept. or Fire Dept. are ones with strong connections to City Officials. With a starting salary of 60k if the process was legitimate, you would have 50,000 cops trying to get a job here since they are not getting nearly as much anywhere else in Chicagoland. Plus most other cops in other towns have greater risks to their lives than Naperville Cops.

Which Aurora cop would not trade in his 43k for 60k? All of them would...plus they would not have to worry about bullets fired at them from gangbangers all day and night! Those police officers are trully stressed. Has anyone ever taken the time to talk to an Aurora cop...you would really appreciate what they do...and for 17k less than a Naperville Cop. And they are limited to 10% matching contributions. Our city council can give our cops 100% matching contributions and would not blink an eye. Sadly, that would not even come close to plugging the pension deficit unless it was done for serveral years.

I don't know how the city council was conned so badly into giving the cops so much. Cops in general are not even one of the 10 most dangerous professions in America and yet they sell themselves to the city council as risking their lives everyday for us. Naperville Cops in particular probably would not make one of the 100 most dangerous professions in America.

Not one Naperville Cop has ever even been shot at while on duty in the 178 year history of Naperville. Common reality is one thing and illusional fantasy is another.

As one blogger said we need to donate our spines to the City Council. They are mostly spineless no longer serving the taxpayers. They are serving themselves and their City Buddies who gave them pensions to quiet them down. How very shameful our town has stooped to such levels after the Napergate Man retired!

Let us hope the Naperville Sun can bring us back to the years when the Napergate Man exposed every penny wasted in every department. I do see a lot of progress in the Naperville Sun and my hat goes off to Host Ted for all the improvements he has made to the Naperville Sun...especially on this blog site. I hope these improvement reach the print edition soon.

I would like to see Host Ted involve more of his employees such as Edtitor Tim West in holding city officials accountable. If Mr. West will not hold them accountable, I suggest he be retired and Mr. Jim Lycnh be returned to the Naperville Sun.

This is not a one man job that Host Ted can do by himself. I urge all Naperville Sun employees to step up to the plate and give their boss a hand. Naperville Residents are being devastated with these tax increases year after year. More Sun employees need to ask Host Ted if they can do their own stories about taxpayer waste from their own angles and perspectives. This is a good cause. Please give the boss a hand! Let us all work together to end government waste at taxpapyer expense.

We must repeal HOME RULE immediately. Please tell us how to get this on the ballot, Host Ted! I am sure if we got it on a referendum it would be repealed in a landslide vote.

Many of us need the security of knowing that 5% tax increases are the MAXIMUM. We have to plan for our futures and our kids' futures. How can we plan if the City Council plans on stiffing us with 20-30% tax increases year after year to replinish these police and fire funds? They managed and lost their own money...not us taxpayers! Why do we have to refund these losses? Please ask them, Host Ted?

Let us go back to maximum 5% tax increases, state rule, file bankruptcy, and get this town on some new railroad tracks that work. Railroading the taxpayer has to come to an end!

I get it Maureen. You bought a million dollar home that you cannot afford. You probably have a SUV and a fancy second car you cannot afford. You are the typical Napervillian living beyond their means. You use a ridiculous example of your taxes going up $10,000 dollars a year to hide the fact that you have over extended yourself on all your credit, and now can't afford to maintain the lifestyle you think you deserve.

When I built my house, I took into account the fact that I live in an area where there are huge jumps in taxes. I did not max out my budget on my house and car payments, I stuck to the safe recommendations of payments to income. Because of this, I can not only handle the increase in taxes, I can also keep my house after being out of work for over a year and a half because of a catastrophic illness.

Sure, I would like to keep taxes down. Sure, I would like to see laws stopping double dipping, last minute promotions, and other factors that raise the public pension costs. In reality, I know that the lawmakers are not going to cut their own benefits and have planned for their greed and how it will affect my budget. If you think attacking the police budget and pensions is going to stop the high taxation, you are not dealing with reality.

As I have said numerous times before, Maureen, writing about it here is not going to accomplish anything. The napergatians keep bragging that they have a 10,000 plus membership. They keep saying that the "establishment" members better watch out, or they might do something about it. The time for threats is past. The time for action is now. If I had a huge organization ready to go, as the napergatians claim to do, I would not be wasting my time on these blogs. I would be out in the public, organizing my slate of reform candidates and letting the public know that the tax and spend days are over.

I am still waiting for the press release from the napergatians that will indicate that is happening.

TB,

I agree reducing the police saleries from 60k to 30k would be draconian.

But really reductions are in order. Maybe every cop needs to take a 20% pay cut and accept a reduced pension of 50% at age 65 instead of age 51.

Let us face it the current system is really broken. It is not sound.
The money is not there for the benefits the city council promised.
What they promised the police is insane!

Our city council members are stuck in a rut.

It is well known these pensions were created to help recruit government employees when private business paid more. Those days are long gone and our city council has not adjusted. Unfortunately!

Are police doing a good job in Naperville?

Last night they were. I usually go to Rizza's on Monday for a drink with my girl friends since downtown is very slow and I don't like the big crowds on Fridays and Saturdays.

I noticed the 6 bike cops were missing. Last Monday they were in full force.

The first thing that came to my mind was the Police Chief has been reading these threads and realized he made a mistake by putting 6 bike cops to supplement the police cars on a dead Monday night. It really made no sense to have 6 bike cops and 3 police car cops policing 50 peaceful drinkers downtown. That is really overkill and way to costly to residents.

I don't go downtown any other days so I hope other bloggers report police activity on other days.

It just does not seem like our Police Chief is naturally cost conscious. It seems like he responds to public pressure, though!

Whatever it takes, we need to make a point to him that we do not have a bottomless pit of money to support his department's wasteful habits.

Let us hope he finally turned the corner by leaving those 6 bike cops home on Monday and off our tax bills. Thank you, Police Chief Dial! We need more of that!

To the poster who asked about rescinding home rule authority.

The process is actually quite simple. Start a petition. Collect signatures from people who are registered to vote in Naperville municipal elections. Stop collecting when you have collected the number of signatures equal to 10% of the total registered voters at the last election. File the petition.

The question then goes on the official ballot during the next city election for all voters to decide. Simple majority of votes cast decides issue.

Considering the well organized machine that exists throughout the city with all of the homeowners associations it should be very little problem to collect just 10% of the required signatures if someone really wanted to put this question on the ballot.

Moderator Ted,

I would love to see an article about when and how we gave up state rule. What are the advantages of having home rule? Are there any advantages?

It seems like the disadvantages are numerous.

1. The city council can impose all the taxes they want. There is no limit of 5% tax increases per year.

2. The city council does not need to read the 100 page city finance report and try to trim wasteful spending from it....why should they waste their time. They are getting paid whether they read it or not!

3. No need to balance the budget every year with the limited 5% tax increases allowed under state rule, since the City of Naperville is exempt. The budget will always balance simply by increasing taxes to meet increased expenses.

4. The city council can build 3 parking garages at one time, instead of 1 at a time to make sure we can afford them since there is no 5% limit on tax increases.

5. The city council can pay police one of the highest starting salaries in the nation and give them all the OT they want. Likewise, I assume for the fire fighters!

I guess my question is why do we even have a city council. They have no incentive to save money for the taxpayers. They don't need to balance budgets. All they do is rubber stamp city officials, collect their salaries, nice benefits, pensions and go home while leaving us with all the bills to pay. How nice! Let us oust the culprits among them!

Ted,

There is nothing wrong with our cops. For the most part they are friendly and do their jobs. They are courteous. They are no better or worse than any other cops in the area!

I think what most people are complaining about is their very high salaries, very high pensions, very high beneifts, and OT. That seems to be the jist of the complaints.

Are the complaints legitimate?

Well if we are 51 million in the pension hole despite 20% annual matching funds, of course the complaints are legitimate.

That article John Q. Public publised was extraordinary. It explained a pending catastrophe that is looming and coming our way. It happened in California in a very rich town.

Their average salary was 122k. I am not sure what our average salary for cops is but since the starting salary is 60k the average salary of a cop could be 100k in Naperville. We know City Manager Marshall was making about 115k as a cop. Not to far from the average in this California town.

Our council members are doing a disservice to both our fine police/fire departments and our fine residents. They are making promises on behalf of residents that residents can not keep. Maybe they wanted the 400 votes of the police and firemen for the next election and thus gave them all this money that was not theirs to give.

Politicians tend to give away money before elections to get votes. This may have happened. I think the entire city council who gave this money away should submit their resignations immediately.

We have no choice but to renegotiate with the unions or file bankruptcy. I am sure the union would rather have 50% pensions than 0 pensions so they are likely to renegotiate. In California the situation got so bad, renegotiation was not even an option anymore!

Bankruptcy was the only option and the cops and fireman lost everything. Many were even laid off! Let us try to do better here! But first the majority of the city council needs to resign so we know we are being represented by people who care about us....not people who will sell the city to get votes!

By Ken on June 23, 2008 9:28 PM

Naperville is a wealthy town, but the way you all act here, it would seem that you are blue collar workers making $30,000 a year. If that were true, you would not be living in Naperville even with both spouses working. While times are definitely tough, the cries of poor from a wealthy suburb ring hollow.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Ken, Ken, Ken...

I am not sure you understand the tax system. We are a wealthy town. We do have larger houses than Bolingbrook. We do pay more taxes. But we also have limits.

If I am being taxed 2% on my home with a value of 1 million, and all the taxing bodies are incompetent, my taxes can rise from 20k to 30k. That is unbearable for me and unbearble for most residents.

In Bolingbrook, if a home costs 200,000 they would be paying 4000 dollars in taxes at 2%. If there taxes go up, due to state rule, they can only go up 5% or to $4200 dollars.

I am sure the Bolingbrook resident can handle his $200 dollar increase better than I can handle my $10,000 dollar increase. Their situation is tolerable. Our situation in Naperville has become gradually intolerable and is getting worse than better especially with the revelation of these pension shortfalls for only the police and fire. Soon, Host Ted, may discover pension shortfalls in other city depts. I am sure there are others and they will gradually surface just like a dead body in a lake gradually surfaces.

Maybe if the City of Naperville went back to State Rule and limit of 5% like everyone else, the complaints would lessen.

I hope you finally get it, Ken, Ken, Ken.....

Timothy (and Peggy, too) –

I was merely agreeing with JQP’s post in which he said “I don't think cutting salaries to one half or one third their current levels just because we might be able to get away with it is a wise option. We may not need cops that are fat and happy, but I think it's advantageous to the city to have cops that are at least happy.”

Can the salaries be cut without harming the city? Perhaps. But draconian cuts as some have advocated will lead to our best and brightest leaving the city. I think that was what JQP was getting at and I agree with him.

It’s true that greed knows no bounds (or income level), but common sense says that underpaid cops are going to be more likely to accept a bribe to “look the other way” or commit other crimes in the name of money.

Once again…my brother does not work for the city, his salary is not affected by anything the city does, our taxes are not affected by my brother’s salary, and thus the fact that he is a fire fighter in another suburb has no bearing on this discussion.

I guess by your twisted logic that I should recuse myself from posting on this thread because I’m related to a non-Naperville fire fighter, you should also recuse yourself because you’re a Naperville taxpayer and are personally vested in the outcome of the fire and police contracts? See the absurdity in what you wrote?

T.B.

I think some of the people in this thread are a little too macro-focused, trying to fix the world's problems with inner-Naperville problems.

We have an issue with overpaying our police. It's true. But I do believe we have some of the best protection offered in the state. Our crime rates have been historically low for a while. But it was only lately, that the trend has went up.

I've got a few theories why--section 8, HUD, irresponsible, uneducated people, teenage pregnancy. But that's a problem that can't be tackled from the executive side of the law. It's on the legislative level and that's where we have to go to council about allowing so many new people in the area.

The clothes line issue is one that went sour for me, because it shows a lack of awareness. We're too tolerant. It's like the claim that illegal immigration is OK because it supports many local businesses, but few people mention that illegal immigration costs the U.S. billions of dollars in tax payer dollars for police protection, hospital bills, social security, border patrol and etc.

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=139817

Are the Naperville Police doing a good job?

Well today I witnessed a new "first" for me.

Ok, first off drivers running red lights turning left at the end of the traffic signal cycle are one of my pet peeves. And running red lights is apparently one of the traffic laws the Naperville Police Department has decided not to actively enforce... at least not at any of the intersections that are rated as having the highest number of crashes each year.

With that as backdrop back to my story and here is what I witnessed today at 5:20PM as I waited to turn left from North Aurora Road into the Rt 59 train station parking lot. Traffic from southbound Fairway turning left onto North Aurora Road continued to pour out after they had red light and continued to pour out car after car until even after the left turn green arrow for westbound North Aurora had gone out. The last jerk almost got clipped from a jack rabbit heading east who took off real fast when the straight thru traffic finally got a green light.

And all of this happened within a stones throw of the police sub-station at the SW corner of this intersection. Pretty brazen? Nope. People simple know the police are not out there patrolling the streets, especially at rush hour.

If the Naperville Police can not or will not do their job then maybe we should downsize the police force and let the majority of them go. Instead we can invest in red light traffic signals at all of the major intersections. These camera's will work day and night 24/7 and won't cost a red dime of overtime or retirement. Plus they will actually do what they are supposed to be doing.

I'm not sure how or why we ended up like this but if the police no longer have their heart in performing basic police work like traffic enforcement then we need to find other solutions that will work. If the answer is in technology then so be it. Banks used to have tellers, now we have ATM's. Tollways used to toll collectors, now we have I-Pass. Airlines used to agents to book flights, now we do it ourselves on the internet. And there are lots of other examples. Maybe we need to embrace technology and start replacing police officers.

First of all, Virginia, I don't mention the cult in every post as I have patiently explained before. I will explain it again, and maybe you will be able to comprehend or grasp when and why I do it. Very simply, when a cult member such as yourself aims an attack post at me, I respond. If you and your fellow cult members could learn how to debate without attacking, I would be glad to drop all cult references.

Since you are only able to attack the messenger and not the message, I doubt this will ever happen, but would be overjoyed if you could actually do it.

Secondly, it is nice of Chicago to think they can do away with pensions. It will be interesting to see if they can accomplish that with the various unions. Somehow, I have a hard time seeing it done without a two tier system that will still have to honor the pensions of current Chicago policemen. By the way, if you are willing to use Chicago as your shining example, you should be willing to pay Chicago's high taxes too.

Third, you miss my point when I say if you think the neighboring towns are more fiscally responsible, move there. You all lavish praise on them for their cheap police forces, yet seem to dismiss the rampant gang problems they all have. You like their lower taxes, but would not like the lower income people that those taxes allow to live in those towns.

Naperville is a wealthy town, but the way you all act here, it would seem that you are blue collar workers making $30,000 a year. If that were true, you would not be living in Naperville even with both spouses working. While times are definitely tough, the cries of poor from a wealthy suburb ring hollow.

The whole problem here is that many are willing to moan about high taxes here, but no one will organize a slate of candidates espousing your values. Get out there with candidates that will let the city know you are serious about slashing pay, benefits, and taking away all pensions of government employees. Let them know that you intend to cut the police force, except for in your subdivision.

In short, put your money where your mouth is, and let the city decide. Otherwise, all your chirping is as useless as a parrot's.

Ken,

You obviously don't like to find solutions. If you like to pay high salaries, why don't you move to the city in California that paid cops average salaries of $122,000 and then went bankrupt. They could not control themselves and even paid their fire fighters 10k more than cops in average salaries.

The union came to the city council and asked they increase their pensions to 90% from 60%. They asked they lower the age of retirement to 50. The city council complied with all their demands!

The city council in that California town must have been a bunch of wimps and gave the police and fire unions everything they wanted and everything the citizens could not afford. The town filed for bankruptcy. This appears what you are unwilling or unable to grasp. Not sure what it is!

I think Napervillians are trying to save the police and firemen in this town from themselves. They are also trying to save the taxpayers from them.

Your dumb philosophy if I understand it correctly, is if you don't like "business as usual" we should all leave Naperville and give it to you, Ken! Could you afford the $51 million deficit by yourself, Ken! We are not talking about Barbie monopoly money that is needed here but real US DOLLARS!

You simply do not believe in reform, Ken! You obviously don't believe in democracy! You obviously don't believe in electing new city council members! If you had it your way, you would be Dictator Ken running Naperville! We all saw what happened to Dictator Saddam who also did not believe in reform!

You really need to come down to earth from the RISES you are getting from arguing with everyone and present some practical solutions to the $51 million pension deficit. I can assure you no one raided the police and fire pensions. Those responsible made bad investments that could not generate the 75% of salary needed to retire each cop and fireman.

Chicago is taking responsibility for their mistakes and doing something about it. They are not shoving their problem down the throats of the taxpayer as Naperville City Officials are doing. Maybe they are state rule and have a 5% cap on real estate taxes or maybe their residents could not bear any more taxes. Not sure what it is!?!

Naperville City Officials need to rise up and take responsibility for this fiasco. They need to find solutions that don't shove it down the throat of the Naperville Taxpayer!

Real simple, Ken! Try to comprehend and grasp and stop playing RISE games with the numerous serious bloggers. No need to mention Napergate or the Napergate Cult in each one of your posts. You sound like a broken parakeet!

Thompson, you call me dense, yet you don't know the difference between a 401k and a pension? Your 401k lets you manage your investment. If you chose to put all your investments in the internet stocks, it is your own fault. People who get a public pension have little or no choice as to where their pension fund money is invested. They have little or no recourse when other taxing bodies raid their pension fund to pay for other programs. You lost money by your bad choices, Thompson. This is completely different from a state mandated pension fund that loses money due to bad investments and intergovernmental raiding of that fund. The private sector long ago gave up guaranteed pensions; the public sector has not.

By the way, Thompson, you should join the cult as you have their attack post style mastered, completed by your deceptive statements.

What I don't understand is why all those enamored with the way Aurora, Bolingbrook, Romeoville, etc. efficiently keep their spending in control don't just move to one of those towns.

So, I guess the Sun accomplished what its goal was to create another blog about pensions and police pay. Since that is the only thing being discussed, can we update the blog title to Police over time III, or police pensions IVV.

Maybe the city council officials should give up their benefits too? Im not sure what they are exactly, does anyone know? I bet it is something pretty good though...

I have to agree with the majority here that our City Council needs to step up to the plate and deal with the union. Sometimes I am not sure if the City Council is representing the interests of the Naperville Taxpayer or the Naperville City Employees.

It seems we have a conflict of interest.

By giving our City Council a pension, they no longer have a desire to fight wasteful and unneeded pensions since they are getting them.

It seems like our City of Naperville is corrupt and capable of corrupting any City Council member...even if the Napergate Man endorsed him or her. They are all following the money trail! If it benefits them that is where they go! Pension benefits our council members so they are obviously for pensions...the higher the better as long as they also get a higher pension.

What a major conflict of interest that they were granted pensions for working a few hours a month? Isn't a salary, health and life insurance enough! They can keep their internet and cell allowances...but they should give up their pensions and set a good example for all city employees to give up their unaffordable pensions before we face bankruptcy!

No one is voting their conscience. We are as corrput as Enron and we will tumble like dominos as they did...just give us some time!!!

By T.B. on June 23, 2008 8:56 AM

I have to agree with JQP on this issue. A happy cop is a good cop.

T.B.

==================================================================

Maybe it can also be said a happy taxpayer is a good taxpayer.
We are making taxpayers unhappy by stripping them of their hard earned dollars that they need for their retirement and giving them to police and firemen so they can have very fat pensions at retirement.

Policeman are very employable when they retire at age 51. One Naperville cops is running City Hall. Another Naperville cop is a distinguished Professor at Minnesota State University. Another Naperville Cop is Chief of Police in Bolingbrook. All very successful! It does not seem cops are less employable than the general public when they retire at age 51. They should delay their pensions until age 70. Delayed pensions could mean we have enough in the police and firemen pensions and the taxpayers no longer need to subsidize year in and year out.

Personally, I plan on appearing before the City Council next Tuesday so I can be heard on this issue. I am going to let them have it for 3 minutes. Enough is enough! They need to be held accountable! I hope some of my fellow bloggers join me before the city council to let them know we are simply OUTRAGED with the management of our taxpayer funds!

TB,

Enron and World Com executives had hundreds of millions and were still greedy. Wealth does not stop greed! Good salaries do not stop greed. Good morals and ethics stop greed! Being appreciative stops GREED!

The average starting salaries of Bolingbrook, Romeoville and Aurora are probably about 42k a year. Bolingbrook is run by a fine former Naperville Cop. There is no corruption in those towns. No FBI investigations!

Yet, the average cops in those towns that surround Naperville makes nearly $17,500 less than a Naperville Cop. Are you saying Naperville Cops are happier because we pay them more? I did not know money bought happiness. Money usually buys unhappiness.

If you feel we need to pay Naperville Cops 60k for starting salaries and pension to boot at retirement of 90k, please be ready to pay up TB. Did you not read the link that Mr. Public posted? Yes, the California town that paid the highest average salary to cops and the highest pensions, filed for BANKRUPTCY! The cops there will get NOTHING! Their bubble burst because of people like you wanting to give them what taxpayers can not afford to give them.

Is this what you want for our cops? To get nothing!

Most taxpayers will not tolerate another 20% tax increase. Yes, this 20% tax increase left us with a $50.5 million deficit. I don't feel 50% tax increases could put a serious dent in our pension fund deficits. Most of us are not willing to go that far but apparently you are because your brother is a FIREMAN benefitting from these pensions in another nearby town!

I think you need to refrain from posting on this topic as your brother is a fireman and you have blinds on. You can not get over your biases to be logical and practical. It is best you sit on the sidelines while the rest of us try to hammer our views and opinions to the City Council!

The city council could easily be misled by your views as a so called "Naperville Taxpayer" when they are truly the views of a "fireman's brother!"

By Anon on June 22, 2008 11:12 PM

If our pensions need reform, lets reform them. We can't promise what the City can't deliver.

I totally agree that Naperville was once a good deal and attracted a lot of savvy corporations. The same corporations are now pulling jobs out of Naperville. I hope our City Council and City Manager are meeting with our companies to get their input on Naperville.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

ANON,

You make some very good points! It is not wise to promise and not be able to deliver. I wonder why our city council makes promises it can't deliver on. Unfortunately, there is only one way to deliver...that is sock it to the residential and business taxpayers since they declared HOME RULE and are no longer limited to 5% TAX INCREASES. I wish we as residents could repeal this HOME RULE and return to STATE RULE where our city council can not rape our wallets and purses year after year.

Regarding your second point, we are losing some savvy corporations. Most corps have to pay real estate taxes per square foot. Once they see their square foot taxes rose from 2 dollars to 4 dollars, they look for new locations in towns that are watching their expenses. I believe that could be what happened when Amoco pulled out of Naperville with 1000 employees. Who is going to pull out next?

When taxes go up exponentially as in Naperville, corps will pull out faster than home dwellers. They don't need to be paying for this $51 million deficit. They probably learned about it before the residents. They need the cost savings to impress their shareholders with a nice bottom line. They need good EARNINGS PER SHARE! They need to have dividend pay-outs to their shareholders! They simply are not interested in using their money to subsidize city employee pension funds. I am sure corporations who discontinued their own pension funds for affordability reasons, have no interest in supporting public pension funds...especially when they get unreasonable as has happened in our beloved Naperville!

I hope our City Council wakes up before we lose more corporations such as Amoco. Losing corporations means residential taxpayers will even be hit harder on their real estate tax bills to make up for the corporate loss.

It is nice that Host Ted is achiving these threads. One day we can tell the City Council "we told you so" and you chose not to listen! And repost our posts to show them proof that we warned them of the pending disaster! If it happened in California, it could happen here!

Bankruptcy may be our only recourse, if the City Council does not take some preventive remedies soon! Let us hope they act for once!
Honestly, I am getting tired of the lip service they give residents such as Council Member Kenn Miller telling residents he is watching idling and reduced gas consumption by 6%. Notice he said gas consumption but not gas expense. Thus we are spending much more for gas than last year and he is given us lip service. Lip service will get you nowhere, Council Member Miller. Try a little harder next time!

Overall, NT, I have a problem with people in the corporate world that have been screwed by their corporate masters (who still have their golden parachutes) and now want to screw the people they used to look down upon for being so stupid that they took a government job.

____________________________________________________________________

Ken,

Some corporate master are corrupt. No doubt about that. Most of us got screwed by the stock market bubble of 2000. The money got wiped out in the stock market. The pension funds of police, firemen, and teachers also got wiped out or took a big hit as we did in the private sector.

The problem you seem unable to grasp is that the private sector also lost their money in the bubble. They owned up to losing their money. We could have had it in bank CD's and made 5% interest with FDIC Insurance but we got greedy and wanted 50% returns with the risk that came with it. Well, we took the risk and lost our money. Even Joe admits he lost 2 million if I recall. No one was immune. No one was left standing in the path of the hurricane!

But here is what the problem is. The fireman and police also lost their pension savings. They took a big hit. They have no money for their fat pensions of 75% at age 51.

But rather than owning up to their losses as the civilian populaiton has, as Joe did publicly and bravely, they are crying for replenishment from the civilian taxpayer population who also lost their money. We are trying to rebuild our retirement pension on our own slowly but surely. How can we rebuild them if we have to pay all these taxes to replinish the police and fire pensions. We simply can't!

The police and fire personnel should increase contributions to their funds if they would like these fat pensions at early retirement ages. That is the story in a nutshell!

I do see why so many bloggers have called you dense, Ken! You do appear to be quite DENSE!

And if you care to respond please don't invoke the Napergate Cult. I have no clue who that group is. I moved to town 2 years ago and only learned about Napergate through this blog site.

My goodness, I wasn't aware that I was some kind of a criminal until it was pointed out to me in this thread that my less-than-upper-class income makes me one. How dare I earn less than six figures a year and reside in Naperville! I'm what's wrong with this city!

That article about pensions that Mr. Public posted a link for was most interesting.

It shows you how stupid elected city council officials can be. Can you imagine that those dummies increased police pensions from 60% to 90% of final salaries with an early retirement age of 50. They had known that their police pension fund was wiped out in the 2000-2002 stock market bubble. They also paid what appears the highest average salary of any town in California for police. Firemen were even 10k higher in average salaries.

Well, dah, the idiots on that California City Council have no clue how to come up with the money they promised.

They have now filed bankruptcy!

This does scare me and remind me of the Naperville City Council! They are paying the highest starting salary to police in the State of Illinios. They are letting them retire at age 51. They are not limiting matching taxpayer contributions to 10% as neighboring Aurora does. They even allow DOUBLE DIPPING such as in the case of pro-tem City Manager Bob Marshall.

What is our option but to file bankrupting soon like our sister California city? Maybe CM Bob should print that article and make a copy for each council member. Or maybe better read it to them since they apparently never read page 66 of our City Financial Report.

I really can't imagine any one on our City Council except for Councilmen Bob and Dick who would take the time to read a 100 page city finanacial report.

Maybe the City Council is smarter than I think. Maybe they want the police and firemen to become fat pigs with these humongous pensions and finally slaughter them as hogs using BANKRUPTCY....just like our sister California city did!

If that is the strategy of our City Council, kudos to them! More power to them!

If it is not the strategy, I hope they adopt a strategy that will spare me another 19.5% tax increase next year.

Many thanks to the Naperville Sun for setting up this blog site to allow residents to express their frustration with our city council members and City Finance Director who apparently lost control over the purse strings of our city funds! I say he needs to RESIGN!!!

Editor Ted,

I recall you promising us that you were going to do something in the print edition about these police and fire pensions about 2 weeks ago. I have been buying the Naperville Sun every day at 7-Eleven since you made the announcement and feel disappointed that it has not been done yet.

We are talking about a $51 million deficit in the police and fire departments and it seems like the Naperville Sun wants to "cover up" this story in the print edition where the majority of readers still are. Why?

It was my understanding you were going to follow in the footsteps of Mr. Jim Lynch and not in the footsteps of Mr. Tim West. It seems like you have adopted the strategy of Mr. West and letting City Officals get away with murder...not being the Watchdog that you promised us you will be. Why?

Mr. Tim West in his quarter century as a editor/columnist only stood up to the City Council once. When they could not come up with the cost of the Napergate Trials! When they said they were clueless!?!?!?!??!?!

I hope we can see you stand up for the citizens against goverment waste more than once in your hopefully 25 year career or more with the Naperville Sun.

Please keep your promise and let us have an article about these pensions and what we could do to repeal them short of filing bankruptcy!

___________________________________________________________________

Editor Ted,

Please send my regards to Mr. Jim Lynch. I was vacationing when the announcement came out that he was laid off. He will be a great loss to the Naperville Sun and the City of Naperville. He was truly a brave man who was willing to stand up to government waste and corruption!

Reply from Ted:

These things take time. Be patient. It takes two weeks just to properly put together FOIA's and file them and wait for government entities to provide information that you can then start going through and evaluating.

Ironic, really, that some people like to compare the NPD salaries to places such as Melrose Park. The FBI raided and took over the Melrose Park police headquarters in September 2005 during a corruption investigation. Not some cop’s home, but police headquarters. Could Melrose Park’s low salaries have contributed to the police chief’s alleged greed and willingness to break the law?

http://cbs2chicago.com/topstories/Melrose.Park.Police.2.320902.html

I have to agree with JQP on this issue. A happy cop is a good cop.

T.B.

Councilman Bob,

I am curious why we converted to home rule and when? What were the real advantages of being home rule.

I can only think of ONE MAJOR DISADVANTAGE: that being that we are no longer capped at 5% tax increases.

That the city concil can raise our taxes 100% if they so desired. This disturbs me!

I would like to ask you what measures can be taken to return to State Rule so we can be limited to 5% tax increases in the worse of circumstances. It is in the worst of circumstances as right now that we need this protection.

I was outraged when my City of Naperville Real Estate Tax Bill was up 20.1% this year.

Please let me know what I could do to help get a referendum on the ballot to end HOME RULE!

It seems home rule makes it easy to balance the budget...tax the residents for the SHORTFALL each year and tell them we did a great job and stayed within BUDGET! This insanity must end! You council members have to work a little harder and stop passing the puck to us in the form of annual TAX INCREASES!

Looking forward to hearing from you Council Man Bob! Thanks for caring to participate in this debate. As others said, I will also be voting for you since you cared to be TRANSPARENT unlike your colleagues who all appear to be in hiding!

When you are running for election again, Mr. CM BOB!

Mr. John Q. Public

That was an excellent link you gave us.

It did make some great points!

One being was that pensions were set up decades ago since government employees made substantially less than private employees. The article clearly stated that blue collar government employees are averaging 70% more than blue collar private enterprise employees.

What is the purpose of giving them a pension to lure them when the salary is already 70% higher? And to think they get to retire at age 50 while their counterparts have to work till age 66 is as unfair as it gets.

You seem to be a fair man, John Q. Public.

Let me ask you if you would be willing to go on record and call for the elimination of all pensions for all government employees?

After all it is the government that set up Social Security for non-government employees. It is time for them to join us in what they found feasible for us. No more double standards!

Please express you opinion bluntly, Mr. Public! The less "ifs" I hear the more I will respect you!

As you may know TB lost all his credibility with all his "IFS." People are sick of "IFS." People want ACTION! They want STRAIGHT TALK! They want progress! They want movement on the issues! They don't want to circle and dance around the issues with TB!

Naperville Taxpayer

I heard about that fireman in Lisle-Woodridge who was promoted to Captain at his farewell party. His first name was Kurt! Who promotes a retiring fireman? For what reason! It just seems like the teachers he got a promotion so he can have a nice pension when he retires. I believe he was 51.

We haved a right to ask our council members to make sure this is not happening in Naperville. My guess it is business as usual through out the State of Illinois.

___________________________________________________________________

Councilman Bob,

I also did hear about this fireman who was promoted to Captain a month before his retirement. Obviously, to jack up his pension at taxpayer expense.

What assurances can you give me that our police dept. and fire dept. are not pulling these stunts nearby towns are pulling. Are you council members watching out for our interests or are you watching out for city employees interest in these cases?

I hope you guys are watching out for our taxpayer interests as you were elected by the majority residents and not minority city employees. I am sure this fireman Kurt from Lisle-Woodridge went bragging about it to someone not knowing the ramnifications of exposing his fire department. As they say loose lips sink ships...

Please take measures that would prevent this from happening in Naperville. Make sure the Police Chief and Fire Chief know the consequences of screwing the taxpayer in this way is termination without PENSION!

I believe strong measures are the only way to prevent improprieties from happening before they happen! Hopefully since our fire and police know they are 50 million in the sewer with their pension money due to losses in the turn of the century stock market bubble, they would not want to make the situation worse for themselves or us TAXPAYERS!!!

I am against replinishing these pension funds. How ironic that most of us also lost our life time saving in this bubble and we are required through sweat and tears to try to rebuild our retirement before it is too late. But to find out I have to build someone else's retirement who lost his money just like I did, makes absolutely no sense to me.

The police and firemen need to be upstanding citizens and rebuild their pension funds by making their own 20% contributions...not expect us to make them for them when we were cleaned out probably worse than they were!

Naperville Taxpayer, since I am one of the ones you singled out, I have to point out where you are wrong. I never said I was in favor of huge pension payouts, or double dipping. Please do not put your thoughts down and attribute them to me.

My problem is with people like you who look to take away all benefits, pensions and even huge percentages of pay for people who took a job in good faith expecting that the city would honor what it promised. I have a problem with people like you who want to break the union contracts signed with the various unions just because you don't have any protection in your job and feel no one else should either. My problem is with people who want a city to declare bankruptcy to get out of its obligations just like many have with their credit cards.

Overall, NT, I have a problem with people in the corporate world that have been screwed by their corporate masters (who still have their golden parachutes) and now want to screw the people they used to look down upon for being so stupid that they took a government job.

"Smell the coffee, Mr. John Q. Public. You have been a voice of reason on this blog sites. Please don't become the next Ken or RJ!"

I think you read WAY more into my comment on the link than was there, Naperville Taxpayer. I was merely saying that there are places where cops are paid a lot more than in Naperville. The article also sheds some light on our situation here. I am not advocating Vallejo-style salaries for our police force, and I am all for reasonable measures to keep costs under control.

OTOH, I don't think cutting salaries to one half or one third their current levels just because we might be able to get away with it is a wise option. We may not need cops that are fat and happy, but I think it's advantageous to the city to have cops that are at least happy.

Does anyone believe that all police are the same, fungible goods?

Is it possible the Naperville gets the pick of the litter by offering a better starting salary? What does Shaumberg (sp) pay.

If our pensions need reform, lets reform them. We can't promise what the City can't deliver.

I totally agree that Naperville was once a good deal and attracted a lot of savvy corporations. The same corporations are now pulling jobs out of Naperville. I hope our City Council and City Manager are meeting with our companies to get their input on Naperville.

My expectation was to grow old in Naperville, over the last year I too have begun to question my long term commitment to City. Like a lot of people, I too have volunteered and put a lot of my time and energy into making the City better.

These thoughts sadden me.

Other towns in trouble
Here's the scary part: What's going on Vallejo isn't unique.

Back at the turn of this century, when the stock market was still booming, public pension plans across the country were suddenly overflowing with surplus money. Politicians responded by handing out heavily sweetened pensions.

Then, even though the stock market collapsed, politicians couldn't stop the trend. In 2001 alone, pension benefits were increased in at least 17 state plans, as well as some major cities.

For a while, inflated housing prices came to the rescue, handing many municipalities a windfall in increased property tax revenues.

Now that bubble has collapsed and the stock market is floundering. State pension plans alone are about $360 billion short of the assets they should ideally hold for future retirees, according to a recent report by the Pew Center on the States. And that's not including city plans.

Cities and states that enriched their benefits in the past few years are especially at risk. That's because no matter how badly a pension plan's investments perform, the enhanced pension benefits promised to state and local employees back in the boom times can't be taken away, or even modified - they are locked in by constitutional and legal guarantees.

There is, however, one potential option for cutting back on public pension benefits: BANKRUPTCY. And that's what it has now come to in Vallejo. Elected officials in other struggling areas will surely be watching.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. John Q. Public,

This is from the link you provided. It is pretty much what the Napergatians have been posting about.

It seems like during the bubble the city pension funds became very generous. They made promises of up to 90% pensions based on this bubble money. When it was all lost, the taxpayers had to replinish these funds and come up with the higher promised pensions.

In the private world, when the stock market bubble blew up, the employees lost all their money. They could not go to anyone for a resue plan.

How ironic these government employees are going to the private employees who also lost all their money in the bubble for a rescue plan!!!

I say Naperville should abolish home rule limiting itself to 5% tax increase per year. Once they show the police and firemen these pensions are not sustainable, file bankruptcy. At that point we would be relieved from these nonsense pensions that our dumber than dumb majority city council and state legislatures approved.

Let us go for the relief...BANKRUPTCY!!!

Let us teach the UNIONS a lesson in taking advantage of our naive and uncaring City Council Members with the exception of CM Furstenau!

By John Q. Public on June 22, 2008 4:11 PM
If people think Naperville cops are over-paid, they should check out this link:

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. John Q. Public,

Naperville Cops are overpaid. Let us not compare them to a city in California that was stupid and dumb to take orders from the POLICE UNION. Yes, they paid their cops more than Naperville Cops but they are now filing BANKRUPTCY. There is a completely different standard of living in California than the rest of the country and that is why Blogger Diana said she found these EXCEPTIONS in California that paid more than Naperville. But these exceptions are also filing BANRUPTCY. Is that what you want for Naperville, Mr. John Q. Public?

Find me a town in Illinois that pays more for a starting salary for a cop than Naperville?

Are you endorsing that our cops continue to get a starting salary of 60k and their unheard of benefits?

The article you posted a link to, stated that the purpose of these pension funds was to help government employees when their salaries were lower than the private sector. Th article you posted made that clear. Blue collar government employees make 60% more than blue collar private sector employees doing the same work. It should now be the private sector employees receiving the pensions since they are the ones severely underpaid!

Since we turned around the salary situation should we not also turn around the pension situation?

Naperville police and firemen are greatly overpaid and will take us into bankruptcy. If the City of Naperville had not opted into home rule and jacked up taxes 4 times what the state allows, we would have had to file BANKRUPTCY this YEAR!

Smell the coffee, Mr. John Q. Public. You have been a voice of reason on this blog sites. Please don't become the next Ken or RJ!

Thank you!!!

By Like it Is on June 22, 2008 11:50 AM

Could we use more police in the Downtown and surrounding neighborhoods? Yes.

__________________________________________________________________

I am not sure we need more police. We need them in the right place at the right time.

However if you are right and we need more police, we can have twice the number of police by starting them at 30k instead of 60k. We could have 3 times the number of police for the money if we eliminated pensions that pay retired cops more than working cops.

But more police at 60k starting salaries and 85k retiring salaries is not affordable. Amoco relocated 1000 employees back to Chicago because the benefits of the suburbs had disappeared. High taxes, gas and transportation and they are back in Chicago.

We can not become a cocky and arrogant town and believe people and business would love to continue to come here at any price. Rich people are more cost conscious than poor people. That is one reason why they are rich. Many rich people build their mansions in unicorparted Naperville and avoid paying the crazy city taxes most of us are subjected to.

I hope we adopt the Chicago and Napergate agendas of ending all pension for all City Employees....not just police and fire personnel!

Host Ted,

Thanks for providing the link to that article on pensions in the Chicago Sun-Times. I happen to have caught it and read it twice. It was very interesting.

Chicago's former chief financial officer Dana Levenson and a committee of 32 commission members are basically calling for an end to pensions. A switch to 401k and Socail Security like the private sector.

The numerous bloggers who have called for the same thing in Naperville are called outcast Napergate Cultists....I wonder why!

Chicago needs 400 million dollars a year to subsidize their pension fund which is 10 billion in the whole. They are heading for disaster. Many large corps will no longer want to locate in Chicago and subject their employees to paying for this 10 billion pension shortfall. As the Sun-Times reporter said the nonsense of these kind of benefits are unheard of in the private sector.

Naperville offers the highest starty salary of any municipality in the State of Illinois including Chicago for police officers. That should be a great attraction to recruiting cops. We don't need to offer them pensions we can not afford on top of their high starting salaries.

So many people want to be cops that they take jobs in Melrose Park, Bellwood, Stone Park and Maywood at starting salaries of 25k in gang infested territories where they risk their lives fighting gangs and sometimes the MAFIA. These cops would form a line around the Naperville Police Dept to start at 30k instead of the current starting salary which is a few hundred bucks under 60k.

Most 21 years older are looking for starting salaries and not even thinking of pension or know what it is at age 21. Like most other 21 year old youngsters, 30 years in the future is not imaginable for them.

Now that we in Naperville have a 51 million deficet despite pumping in 20% of matching wages annually, we need to do something. Let us stop attacking the Napergatians for making a wonderful proposal. Chicago is looking into a very similar proposal. Are there Napergatians running Chicago too?

The Chicago Sun Times, Host Ted's mother newspaper, has been hammering away at these pensions for a month now...they sound very convincing.

I would like to see Host Ted begin hammering away in the Naperville Sun. Basically it is an issue between 400 cops and fire fighters who want every last penny from the taxpayer and 143,600 taxpayer residents who can no longer give them everything. Let us go with the majority Host Ted and try to sell more newspapers. We lost Moderator Jim Lynch due to lack of funds at the Naperville Sun and I would hate to lose you. Let us get that circulation up by doing a major investigation story on these police and fire pensions. It would sure outrage the community and more and more residents will want to buy your newspaper to learn about this mess that is costing them dearly.

The only reason it has not hit the mainstream is that editors have not made it a hot button issue in the print edition of the Naperville Sun where the populance could learn about it. And understand why taxes have gone through the roof.

I am puzzled why the Chicago Sun Times columists are making this issue their priority, while the Naperville Sun columists like Editor Tim West completely ignore it and would rather talk about beautiful birds and bees in his back yard. And somehow Mr. Jim Lynch who was fighting corruption and cronyism is laid off instead of Editor Tim West who writes about the birds and bees.

Only in Naperville...and only in the Naperville Sun!

Let us get this town and newspaper moving in the right direction.

You could do it, Host Ted! Just do it!!!

Don't worry about your relative who is a former Naperville Police Officer. He would be exempt and grandfathered under the plan the Napergatians and Chicagoans are proposing.

Let us save future generations of Napervillians from suffering from taxes they can not afford! That should be our agenda...SAVING OUR KIDS FROM THIS NONSENSE OF SUNSIDIZING AND BOTTOMLESS PITS!

Reply from Ted:

The times they are a'changing. One other thing: teachers, cops and other public sector employees paying monthly premiums for health insurance is a relatively recent development. Slow to react to the huge cost increases in the health care industry. Now most public employees contribute something, but it's still comparably favorable than what those of us in the private sector pay.

If people think Naperville cops are over-paid, they should check out this link:

http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/02/pf/retirement/vallejo.moneymag/index.htm

Many people have criticized the use of school cops as bicycle patrol officers downtown. Are people upset that these people are on the NPD payroll at all, or do they just feel that their time could be put to better use during the summer (e.g., more patrol cars around the city)?

Delma,

I assume you are being sarcastic.

The Marxist argument is that money determines everything. A lot of people that are decent and not criminals also have no money. Marx and you are both wrong.

Focus on the behaviors and stop making excuses for people that use their free will to commit criminal acts.

By Delma D. on June 22, 2008 7:38 AM

I for one agree with Brenda. Letting lower middle class people in the city is the start of a downfall. Think about Bill Cosby's comments about responsibility. These people as a whole seem to lack it, and thus crime is more often committed by lower class and lower middle class than upper.

It's simple: We can't lower our standards to justify our acceptance of our other people.

By Naperville Taxpayer on June 21, 2008 11:39 PM

"There is no conspiracy here. If 6 school cops are riding bikes in downtown Naperville on Sunday and Monday for no other reason other than their schools were closed, we have a right to discuss this serious waste of taxpayer money since it is increasing out TAXES."

_________________________________________

From reading the Sun, and speaking with kids that attend NNHS (and other local schools) there is an observable, real and growing gang problem at our schools and in the downtown. The blood soaked hallways from group assaults is a dead giveaway at North as are uniformed gang bangers recruiting at the entrances during the summer months.

While the Federal Government, and local charities, are moving the absolute bottom of the barrel (hard core gang members) from the housing projects (that are being demolished for high-end, close-to-the-loop housing) into Naperville, there are now plenty of home-grown Naperville gang bangers and wanna-be's in our schools. Apparently, recruiting is going well.

The bottom of the barrel includes families where all of the family members identify themselves with a gang that now has a concentrated presence in Naperville and the Downtown and surrounding neighborhoods in particular. Gangs migrate in mass to maximize their chances of intimidating the residents and overwhelming the local police department like we see today in Aurora.

During the warmer months, the gangs are out in force loitering on the lawns, in the middle of the street, neighborhood street corners, in the Riverwalk area and in the Downtown anywhere they can find a place to loiter or endlessly walk around the block in circles while the 20 something hard core members pass by in their cars, frequently with the rap cranked up.

If your kid loiters in the Downtown today, you may inadvertently be part of the problem. Especially if your kid wears a lot of Bulls (red & black) or White Sox (black & white) clothing or colors or walks around with only one sock or one pant leg rolled up. The SOX hat is a dead giveaway. If your kid’s friends dress this way, your kid is definitely headed in the wrong direction. If your kid has one friend that is much bigger and a few years older, this is a giant red flag. Look for the kid in the group that literally stands out, this is the recruiter.

The NE corner of the Centennial Beach property (inside and outside of the fence) has been a hot spot for the last few years including lots of police activity. The Park police aren't at Centennial to work on their tans.

Nichols is becoming an all day hot spot especially at the entrances, the upstairs lobby and the computer room. Watch who comes in off the street to use the bathrooms, then leaves. Look at how many of them are wearing black & red or black & white clothing articles including their color-coded-sneakers and shoelaces. Spend a few hours at the Naper Blvd. branch then go to Nichols; it will hit you in the face like a ton of bricks. The kids & adults that look and dress like gang members, are gang members. Surprisingly, this can include women in their 40-50’s.

Should you avoid these locations? No, you should start paying attention to them, seeing if you recognize anyone and demanding action.

Are the bicycle cops needed in the Downtown during the summer months? Yes.

Do the bicycle cops know a lot of the little sc*m bags from North and Central HS? Yes.

Could we use more police in the Downtown and surrounding neighborhoods? Yes.

Should the cameras go up? Yes.

Should the City begin passing ordinances like Peoria and Aurora to deal with the gangs and the parasites that rent them properties? Yes

Should the City Council begin paying attention to where the money goes that they pipeline to their favorite charities? They better start.

Have the police been effectively disabled by all of the post WW2 expansion of criminal rights? Yes, especially when it comes to dealing with our legal “super-citizens”.

Check out this article from today's Sun-Times:

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/1018038,CST-NWS-pension22.article

Future city workers could lose out on lush pension plan
REFORM | Panel may urge shift to 401(k) to solve cash crisis

June 22, 2008
Recommend (6)

BY FRAN SPIELMAN City Hall Reporter/fspielman@suntimes.com

The lavish pensions that City Hall has been known for may become a thing of the past for new city employees.

Newly hired employees would shift to the 401(k) plans favored by private industry -- instead of the "defined benefits" enjoyed by their older co-workers -- under a plan being pushed by the head of Mayor Daley's pension reform commission.

....

It's about time, citizens and their elected officials stand up to the Police Unions and the Firefighters Union. Their pensions and other amenties amount to a legalized form of extortion. They always couinter with "well, we put our lives on the line every day". Yeah right, how many have died while on the job lately ? It's a job, not a financial windfall.

One evening last winter, and in icy road conditions, my teenage son got into an accident. Thankfully, no one was hurt. The Naperville police responded immediately. Their professionalism and calming demeanor really helped bring the anxiety levels down a few notches. I was very impressed with how they handled the whole situation.

I for one agree with Brenda. Letting lower middle class people in the city is the start of a downfall. Think about Bill Cosby's comments about responsibility. These people as a whole seem to lack it, and thus crime is more often committed by lower class and lower middle class than upper.

It's simple: We can't lower our standards to justify our acceptance of our other people.

To: By Another Anonymous Resident: I have a great idea you MORON...move to Aurora. Better yet, East St. Louis.

Anon,

So vote them out.

By Anonymous on June 21, 2008 7:28 PM
C'mon Naperville Sun, isnt there anything else you guys can report? This is another napergate, napergate II, police ot, police ot II, murder in naperville do you feel safe, ect ect... You can only run the same stuff so many different ways, so many times.

____________________________________________________________________

This is really a tax issue that concerns every resident in town. Trying to throw the smokescreen of Napergate up is just a way not to deal with the serious crisis of police and fire fighter waste we have.

Another Anonymous Resident summarized the many issues that are bothering taxpayers...they are not Napergate issues....they are waste issues that increase our taxes.

There is no conspiracy here. If 6 school cops are riding bikes in downtown Naperville on Sunday and Monday for no other reason other than their schools were closed, we have a right to discuss this serious waste of taxpayer money since it is increasing out TAXES.

If the police union fund manager lost all the pension fund money in the 2000-2002 stock market bubbles and wants us to replinish this 27 million dollar fund, we have a right to discuss it and express our opinion. I don't see how this is a Napergate Issue. It is a tax issue! The city admitted this in its Financial Report. It is not a Napergate conspiracy. It is in black and while in the Financial Report and we are simply emphasizing it for those who may have missed page 66 of the 100 page City of Naperville Financial Report.

If we are tired of paying 21% matching funds to our police and firemen and want it limited to 10% as many towns in Illinois have now down, how is this a Napergate Issue! It is purely a tax issue! A big TAX ISSUE!!!

It seems like everyone in town on the giving end of these broken police and fire pension systems is outraged. Everyone on the receiving end like yourself wants the taxpayers milked and bilked so they can continue receiving their 75% pension at age 51 that may be artificially boosted for you so you can have another 10k in pension per year upon your retirement at taxpayers expense.

I heard about that fireman in Lisle-Woodridge who was promoted to Captain at his farewell party. His first name was Kurt! Who promotes a retiring fireman? For what reason! It just seems like the teachers he got a promotion so he can have a nice pension when he retires. I believe he was 51.

We haved a right to ask our council members to make sure this is not happening in Naperville. My guess it is business as usual through out the State of Illinois.

Well its fun to give your colleague a promotion right before retirement. What a nice present to give him! It does not cost you a penny. But it costs the taxpayers tons of money for the next half century! Firemen and police need to learn to be generous at these farewell parties using their own mony and not taxpayer money when giving a present worth $400,000 at these farewell parties. Yes, giving a fireman a $13,333 prootion to Captain will give him an additional 10k a year for another 40 years for 400k. Adjuct for cost of living and they gave this fireman a HALF A MILLION DOLLAR farewell retirement present at TAXPAYER EXPENSE. How is this a Napergate Issue?

It is not like this fireman was working for low pay and could not survive without a huge pension. He accumulated 4 rental properties during his career as a fireman that could easily sustain his retirement even if he got ZERO PENSION. So why the need to make him Captain. He is also in excellent shape like our own City Manager Bob Marshall and runs a few miles every day.

We now finally see the massive effects of these very high pensions that start at a very young age. Human beings are living longer and longer making these pensions even more UNaffordable.

A fireman can work 30 years averaging 70k a year. If he retires making a 120k as his final pay as Captain, we have to pay him 90k a year for the next 40 or 50 years. We may have more firemen collecting pensions than actually working. The existing firemen contributing 9.4% can not possibly support the retirees. So it is obviously falling on the backs of the taxpayers and getting worse and worse by the year.

One day even if we put 100% matching conributions into the police and firemen pension funds we will not be able to sustain them. City Pro-Tem Manager Bob Marshall is in excellent shape. He can run marathons and be City Manager collecting a nice salary. He may live to be 101. Thus we have to find a way to pay him 85k with cost of living raises for 50 years. That is $4,250,000 plus cost of living for one former cop. Possibly 5 million bucks!!! Is anyone still confused why the police pension fund is broken despite nearly 20% matching contributions per year.

The city council needs to wake up, smell the coffee, and read the handwrting on the wall. By signing contracts with unions allowing this craziness, we will be legally obligated for decades to come. If the town eventually has to file bankruptcy, look no further than our current city council members.

And let us stop using Napergate as a smokescreen. We have a real Napergate going on in our town. Napergate II is much worse than Napergate I. The issues have to be dealt with!

C'mon Naperville Sun, isnt there anything else you guys can report? This is another napergate, napergate II, police ot, police ot II, murder in naperville do you feel safe, ect ect... You can only run the same stuff so many different ways, so many times.

All you have done is drumb up a few naper heavensgatians to repeat there past nonsense. Lets see how much napergate nonsense you allow in this blog. Your standards seem to going down along with the paper? Sure hope you like reading the napergate crap again and again and again and again and again... Thats what your gonna get.

Joe,

Who do you suspect are the people that authorized this pension fund?

Was it the city council or the state legislature?

Apparently the State Legislature gave 2 choices after 2002...the old fashioned way and a new self-managed way limiting the taxpaers to matching 10% contributions minus other contributions such as disablility if I understood this massive document properly that an anonymous blogger posted.

Who made the decision to stay with the old fashioned pension way which in essence is a bottomless pit for the taxpayers?

I suspect the police union wanted it that way and pressured the City Manager who pressured the City Council. So where do you think the puck stops Joe? Who do you think is ultimately responsible?

I think this is an issue that is upsetting to taxpayers more than it is upsetting to the significant minority that dislike police because they got a DUI, DWI or busted for a gram of marijuana and are steaming for revenge on Jim's Blog Site.

Put the blame on the people who authorized a pension fund to take on that much risk.

The Naperville police department has a major problem with selective enforcement. Our police chief supports illegal aliens and even wants to give them driver licenses. Illegal are criminals and the police must take appropriate action to arrest and remove then from our country. It�s also time the police enforce the law with regard to bicycle riders. The same rules of the road apply to both bicycles and motor vehicles.

"loss of control over its borders (30 million illegals),"

Yet no one checks the immigration status of the landscapers they hire to keep the McMansion one step ahead of the neighbors, do they?

There is something the NPD could do, check the immigration status of workers in town.

AA RESIDENT,

Regarding your below statement:

"The leadership in our police dept. can not even manage its pension fund. Despite taxpayer contributions of nearly 19%, the fund is 27 million underfunded. What kind of police dept. that is the best money can buy, mismanges its money in such a way?"

It does seem like someone responsible for the police pension fund lost control of the situation for us to be this much in the negative. 27 million dollars is a huge amount to be in the negative especially when you are only talking about one single department in one single city.

It seems like the police pension managers did lose all the police money in the 2000-2002 stock market bubble. Nothing else could really explain how we contribute nearly 19% of their salaries in matching funds per year only to have this enormous deficet build up to this intolerable level. How could it happen?

And it does seem unfair they can come to us to replinish it for them so they can get 75% retirement pensions after losing all their money. I bet if they had succeeded in the stock market they would never have returned the excess of fund money to the taxpayers that they did not need to fund the 75% retirement payments of police officers. Most probably they would have bumped up end of career salaries as teachers do to increase their pensions and use up the excess funds.

Since they would never return excess funds to us, it seems unfair that we have to make up shortfalls to them.

Let us change the system and adopt Aurora's ways and methods. They don't seem to be having the numerous problems we are encountering with police and fire pensions!

Another Anonymous Resident,

I agree with everything you said. You have obviously been reading these blogs carefully and taking good notes.

However, I do take issue with your calling the Naperville Sun gentle on the Naperville Police. I think you are forgetting that they are the ones who provided this forum to us so that we can all put the NPD under a microscope. Because of this Blog Site we jointly discovered all that is wrong with the Naperville Police Dept. And the discovery is continuing daily!

It is easy for you to say the Naperville Sun is soft on the police. You are anonymous and hiding like most people on this blog site. It is easy to be brave on this site when you are anonymous.

As far as I am concerned the only one in this town who had the guts to stand up to the NPD in person and real time was the Napergate Man. He had a lot to lose and he still stood up to them by name. He had liquor licenses that they could revoke and he still stood up to them and they ended up revoking his liquor licenses, probably because he stood up to them in the way he did.

If the Napergate Man wants to say the Naperville Sun is a little soft on the Naperville Police, I would respect that. But for you, him, her and I who are all being anonymous to say that about the Naperville Sun or Host Ted is ridiculous.

Host Ted has a real name both first and last. He is not anonymous. He is not using an alias name. He has shown a lot of courage by even setting up this forum. He does not edit what we say!

We should all be thankful to both Host Ted and the Naperville Sun for all they have done. Host Ted has informed us he is going to do something on the police and firemen pension thread. He asked us to be patient. Let us be patient so he can do his research and get the story right....unless you want him to feed us the 10 minute crap that Blogger Ken feeds us!

By Brenda Avalong on June 20, 2008 3:55 PM

"OK. Thank God they are doing their job. I've never felt safer here until I hear more and more low-income people will be relocating to the area courtesy of HUD.

It's not the idea of other coming into Naperville. It's the ideology that is basically fact: where there's poverty, there's crime."

Brenda,

Another way to look at it is where there are concentrations of defective behaviors:

-babies having babies
-lots of high school drop outs
-single parent families as the norm
-kids loitering on street corners all day and all night in their gang uniforms
-no work ethic, or need to work
-three generations of gang members living under the same roof (granny is 45)etc etc etc

you are going to find one more defective behavior, crime. You get what you pay for, and this is how the government spends our money. Lots of it.

It is true that it is Federal Government policy to move people with a lot of defective behaviors to prosperous areas.

"Gee if we dump a lot of gang bangers in Napeville, they will start behaving like all of their new neighbors and quit their gangs" It's not working in the Downtown.

The net program is:

-no work requirements, so they loiter in the street and lawns all day and until 3am
-semi free housing (section 8 equals micro-projects), the only people in the area who don't have to work to live here.
-subsidies inc utilities, food, free medical coverage etc etc etc. More incentives to not work.

All of the failing-Federal Government anti-poverty programs costing approx 2 Trillion are a complete-failure like most of the Federal Government appears to be at this point. Sounds harsh, but assign a letter grade to any Federal Department and the D's and F's pile up fast based on results, not happy talk and "look how much we spent".

Corruption in the form of earmarks that earned our former (third-world) Speaker of the House $2 million for sitting at two closings appears to be rampant. Millions will be spent on the Prairie Parkway so Denny could rake off $2MM. Corruption in DC is now the norm, not the exception.

Since Hastert, Bush and Frist got all of the Great Society and New Deal Programs re-authorized and fully-funded and started a bunch of new programs I don't see how anyone can blame the government failures on the Democrats any longer.

These are Country-Club-Republican Socialist and Social-Engineering experiment Programs.

"Hepping (TX spelling) the little people"

In a country suffering a third world currency collapse, declining standards of living, sky rocketing inflation, loss of control over its borders (30 million illegals), catastrophic budget deficits, wide scale bank failures, wide scale financial fraud, a housing bubble collapse, 2 trillion a year in capitol flight, Trillion dollar trade deficits and two totally mismanaged wars,..........

how is our PD doing? Pretty darn good.

Okay, everyone take it easy on Brenda. I would say she sounds like an elitist snob too if it weren't for the fact that the HUD family living in my neighborhood brings in troublesome visitors who regularly trash the local park. (I'm not making assumptions. I have witnessed this.) To be fair, I'm sure there are plenty of upper-middle class hooligans committing the same crimes in my neigbhorhood too.

As far as Naperville PD's performance is concerned, I agree with "Crime Is Up" in that if they would take care to enforce the smaller crimes, it would eliminate larger crimes later. My neighbors and I had been calling the Naperville PD and Naperville Park District Police when there is vandalism or drinking going on at the local park or in the neighborhood. Their response time has been pretty slow. By the time they show up (generally around 30 minutes later), the offenders have gone, and the graffiti and trash remain until the city crews can clean it up days later. Naperville PD always pays great lip service and tells me that I should continue to report all suspicious activities, and that they really care about finding these offenders. When they won't respond in a timely manner and they won't step up patrols after theft, vandalism, and reckless driving have been increasing, what am I to do? I have already written letters to the mayor and spoken with the police lieutenant.

On one occasion, I called the police because a teenager driving an SUV thought it would be funny to swerve his car has my husband as he was trying to take out the trash. We got his license plate number and told the officer that the driver was currently at a neighbor's house. The officer responding talked to the driver, who denied being in the car. The officer told us that unless we could positively identify the driver in a photo line up, there was nothing he could do. He even went so far as to say that he could ticket the driver for speeding, but "what good would that do? His parents are probably rich and they'll just pay the ticket." Nice attitude.

My neighbors got so fed up with the goings on in the neighborhood that they moved last year. My family and I will probably do the same if the neighborhood continues to go downhill.

I'm not saying that all Naperville police officers are lazy or don't take my concerns seriously. But I find that the ones patrolling my neighborhood are pretty complacent and don't consider vandalism, reckless driving, or excessive noise to be "real" crime. And that's a shame.

I would not worry too much about this Brenda. There was a vote on the library parking deck and it was 100-1 with only maybe this one and only very unique Brenda dissenting.

I believe she felt walking a few feet was too much for her. I assume she is not handicapped as there are handicapped parking spots and it would not be an issue for her if that was the case.

I agree totally with the first blogger Another Anonymous Resident. That blogger has done his/her homework and knows the inner workings of the police department very well. I recommend reading that post...very informative to say the least!

It helps one understand why our real estate tax bills are going through new layers of roof each year!

To Brenda,

Your comments resonate from the outdoor laundry conversation. Let me ask you something, Are you crazy?

Who can possibly be that pretentious?

I'm a African-American male who has had a thriving dental business for 14 years now. I have a happy and healthy family. My kids play baseball and my wife sings at church.

Guess what? We landed our first home via HUD when I was in dental school. My parents raised me in the projects on the south side of Chicago.

I came from poverty. Just because people are poor doesn't mean they will rob you. I'm not sure whether to educate you or throw something at you.

Thank God Brenda is here - sharing her elitist view of the world and looking to protect us all from the poor and the middle class. Please Brenda, don't forget to remind us all about how much you pay in taxes, about your appearance on Oprah ( still not documented) and about your exceptional education.

OK. Thank God they are doing their job. I've never felt safer here until I hear more and more low-income people will be relocating to the area courtesy of HUD.

It's not the idea of other coming into Naperville. It's the ideology that is basically fact: where there's poverty, there's crime.

There's plenty of data to support that.

I know Naperville Police are thourough and I hope that continues as this city undergoes change.

Crime is up in the neighborhoods. We never see Naperville police in the soutwest side. Our neighborhood gets hit on for GPS and other stuff left in cars. I first blame the stupid people for leaving their cars open so thieves can just open the door and sweep out cell phones, etc. This leads to thieves thinking the neighborhoods are easy marks. Criminals get brave and start breaking into homes. That just happened a few days ago.

We suggest that people lock their cars in their garages, not leave them in the street, and arm yourselves because homes are now being broken into. If the Naperville police cannot clamp down, then citizens will have to protect themselves. It is scary, but trouble is brewing in the SW Naperville. Stop the crooks now before someone gets hurt. It's the broken window theory, be tough on the smallest of crimes and you eliminate the possibility of worse crimes later. Where are our police when we need them?

Is this the only thing we have to discuss in Naperville? I mean, besides the incredibly pressing issue of whether or not we should be allowed to hang our laundry outdoors?

Why is there a blog post about the police department once a week?

I've lived in some seedy places in my life. I have never lived anywhere where I can forget to close my garage door one night and get a courtesy call from an officer out front to inform me of this. I have never live anywhere where even if they don't catch it and it's open all night that all my stuff is still right where I left it. Their response times are amazing and their coordination, backup and professionalism is many levels above anything else I've experienced. I have acquaintances who sometimes like a little bit of the rowdy side of life who always say "No, let's not go to Naperville, let's go to Streets of Woodfield; I'm not legal" GOOD. The police have created a feeling in a lot of the sub-cultures who tend to be the more trouble makers that they are not welcome in this city and they will get their chops busted if they start crap in this town. Most choose to take their stuff to other towns.

Naperville cops are average cops. They are no better or worse than most other cops in the State of Illinois. They go to the same academies and get the same education.

Are they the best money can buy? No you can get an FBI agent with much better qualifications for 13-14k less. They even give you 10 hours of OT at straight time. Naperville Police give you no OT at straight time. They even charge charities OT at senior officer rates.

Naperville Police waste 3.15 million dollars on OT. This can be avoided by hiring more cops. A new cop at 25-30 dollars per hour working is much cheaper than the most senior of cops working for OT at a rate of 75-100 bucks per hour.

Melrose Park, Bellwood, Stone Park, and Maywood cops graduate from the same Illinios Police Academies and get paid 25-30k in starting salaries. Naperville cops who are equally good with the same skills are paid starting salaries just shy of 60k. Are we getting the best money can buy or are we paying double price because our council members did not know how to negotiate with the union? I suspect it is the latter.

I am surprised an NPD cop gets a higher starting salary than an attorney who completed 4 years of graduate work. An attorny gets no pension. A cop get a pension equal to 75% of his highest salary. A cop gets to retire at 51 and get this nice pension. A cop gets free health insurance while working and during retirement. Attorneys work till they die and would never get a pension and pay for most of their health insurance unless they work for government. Of course if they work for government their average salaries are much less than a private attorney and both are much less than a Naperville Police Officer. Most MBAs unless from Harvard or Stanford also make much less than a Naperville Police Officer.

The leadership in our police dept. can not even manage its pension fund. Despite taxpayer contributions of nearly 19%, the fund is 27 million underfunded. What kind of police dept. that is the best money can buy, mismanges its money in such a way? I hope you were being sarcastic, Host Ted, in your opening statement.

What kind of police dept put 6 cops on bikes and tells them to patrol the downtown at night in addition to the normal patrol vhehicles when it is practically deserted on Sunday, Monday and Tuesday nights? What kind of town allows its school cops to do "pretend work" instead of real work that reduces OT work in the department.

I am glad our police dept can solve a petty crime like finding a stolen puppy. Most police depts are too short handed and fighting serious crime to have the time to look for a missing puppy.

We are not getting the best money can buy for our dear cops! We are overpaying our cops. Aurora cops who trully risk their lives daily get paid 16k less than Naperville cops. The taxpayers in Aurora contribute a maximum of 10% in matching contributions in self-managed pension funds. If the Aurora police make bad investments, they can not go to their alderman for replenishment. They have to increase their own contributions if they want to get 75% pensions upon retirement. They are fair and pay for their mistakes.

In Naperville when the cops mismanage their pension funds, they come to the city council for additional funding at taxpayer expense. We will have to contribute many years of 20% or more of matching funds to get them out of their 27 million hole they dug for themselves by overpensionalizing thru early retirment and inflated salaries.

Our police officers accept OT money from charities. You would think our 200 men and women in blue would step forward twice a year and donate their time to these 2 charity events instead of charging them 100k in OT money that they can not afford. We have to pay this police OT money for these charities from a 1% sales tax we collect for culture. This is improper money and the fine men and women in blue accept this improper money instead of donating their time at these charity events. That would be a class act that would enhance the image of our NPD if they did not charge the charities and let a greater percentage go the poor and needy!

Let us not worry so much about former Police Captain Marshall's pension since he is also collecting a full salary. He should forfeit his pension that he began collecting at mostly taxpayer expense while being gainfully employed by these same Naperville Taxpayers.

Our police depts discriminates against civilians through the use of discretion. If they like your heritage or politics they MAY give you a break...if they don't like your heritage or politics they MAY not give you a break. They do as they please without any regard to fairness.

Our police department overloads police in the downtown area and avoids patrolling a NW Naperville Plaza with the bars that had several shots fired last week according to the Naperville Sun. Also baseball bat incidents were reported to have occurred in that plaza on this blog site. Are we getting our money's worth from our police when they are in the wrong places at all the wrong times? I am not sure!

Our police department polices itself through its own Internal Affairs. A good police dept would not police itself. They would have an outside civilian body policing it. A police dept policing itself is nothing but one big conflict of interest.

The Napergate Man was arrested most probably inappropriately by Sgt. Greg Bell in the belief of quite a few Naperville residents. Who could he appeal to? Internal Affairs is headed by no other than Sgt. Greg Bell who is believed to have abused his discretion in physically arresting the Napergate Man instead of allowing him to turn himself in voluntarily for a petty tollway violation committed by his daughter 5 years prior that he had no knowledge of. This is a police dept so out of control that it wants the arresting Sergeant to be a fair and imparial Judge in an incident he is being accused of wrongdoing....only in Naperville could we have such Kangaroo Justice and say we are getting our money's worth out of our cops.

The cop situation in this town is completely broken. It all starts with that over inflated starting salary that is offered to them and it escalates in all directions from there. These high starting salaries means OT will always be more costly. These high starting salaries mean pension will also be so much higher and even worse unaffordable as we have all witnesseed by looking at the City's Financial Statement!

I think it is high time the Naperville Sun stopped being so gentle on these cops because they were able to chase down a lost puppy. It is great that they have so much time on their hands to give this a priority. I would rather have seen them stationed outside that drug house and busting it before we had our most recent murder in town. This murder in my opinion should and could have been avoided with good investigative police work.

Solving a murder that involved 8 idiots does not take a whole lot. When you have this many idiots holding up a drug house or involved in the drug house, at least one or more idiots will rat out the rest. I beleive this murder could have been solved by any police dept. in Illinois. Praise should come if it could have been prevented...not solving it after we have a dead person on our hands.

It is early in the morning. I could write all day about the problems of the NPD and why they are not worth what we are paying them. That does not mean they are not good men and women. It just means they are OVERPAID NEEDLESSLY!

Response from Ted:

I must take exception to your description of The Sun being "gentle" on cops because we opted to pursue the story. It's a human interest story. Even Napergate Man is a dog-lover, with Abbey. If it was public works guys who rescued a pup from a sewer, we'd do the story. Firefighters getting a cat out of a tree, same thing. You think they're overpaid and get cushy pensions, that's your opinion. But don't blame us for that situation, and for doing stories people are interested in.