Bridge out, and business is bad

Please… The city had electric signs up for several weeks announcing the construction and the community has known about the plan to fix the bridge for several months.

Also, while the traffic has been reduced to nothing on Bailey, I see that the traffic that runs along the east side of your strip mall on Coach/Oxford has increased tenfold, you may want to move the parkway signage that you have on Bailey to Oxford. Duh!!!

FYI: There are plans for major construction on the corner of 75th Street and Washington in the very near future. Get ready for a flood of business as people will be using Bailey road as an alternate route. You may want to think about sending a dozen roses to the city planners to thank them. [/sarcasm]

Speaking of Oxford, if you're coming from the West, turning right on Oxford from 75th is a much shorter route to Bailey than going all the way to Naper Blvd.

If the owner had known about it a year ago, how could he have improved his business or minimized the damage?

Is there something reasonable that the city could have done to minimize the impact, a gravel lane to the business during construction?

The Bailey Road construction project has been a serious inconvenience for me. The detour for this project takes drivers a mile or more out of their way . . . with gas prices as high as they are, that is unacceptable!

Why aren't the construction crews working evenings, weekends and holidays to finish this project as soon as possible?? Hurry, Hurry, Hurry UP and FINISH IT!

I realize that the work is necessary, and I am sure we will all benefit from the upgrades, but I agree with the store owners that the city needs to use consumer friendly signage to keep the customers happy.
A sign on Washington stating that shops east of the bridge were open for business did not appear at the start of the project. In addition, more signs are needed. Please help the stores to stay open. I do not know the hours spent on the project each day but I hope they are maximazing each day to strive for an early finish.

Thank you.

Imagine the uproar that would follow if we started paying construction workers time and a half or double time to hurry up and finish. Oh, the outrage!

Joe,

This is where OT is important. Not at the Last Fling or Ribfest where OT can be avoided as there are many alternatives such as outside police officers or private security firms.

12,800 cars per day were using Bailey Rd before the bridge constuction. These 12,800 cars were feeding the retailers. Now we have 0 cars. I go to the 7-Eleven and the owner told me he has been totally devastated. He does not know how much longer he can survive!

We are talking about saving 10 businesses. Everything should be done unless we want bankruptcies and further loss of tax revenue to the City of Naperville.

The City should have done one lane at a time. Doing 2 lanes at once may have very devastating effects.

Let us get this bridge done as fast as possible at all reasonable costs. When retailers and residents are suffering, work should be around the clock and not 730pm to 330pm!

It's unfortunate but, when there are necessary rebuilds or replacements of infrastructure required, there will be access problems. I am sympathetic for the business owners who are suffering though this road closure.It's too bad this bridge couldn't have been replaced one span at a time but, it was not practical. If you think the Bailey bridge is a problem, wait until the 75th & DuPage River bridge replacement project comes around! What we need in this country are pre-fabricated drop in replacement bridges... like Lego!

By nch dad on June 10, 2008 9:05 AM
Please… The city had electric signs up for several weeks announcing the construction and the community has known about the plan to fix the bridge for several months.

Also, while the traffic has been reduced to nothing on Bailey, I see that the traffic that runs along the east side of your strip mall on Coach/Oxford has increased tenfold, you may want to move the parkway signage that you have on Bailey to Oxford. Duh!!!

__________________________________________________________________

The city put up signs indicating Bailey Rd was closed a full month late and they are hardly visible. No signs were on for over a month indicating the businesses can be reached.

There has been little increases of traffic on Coach/Oxford which is a dead end road that ends on 75th St. The median grass area on 75th street prevents north/south traffic and also no traffic coming from the east can make a left turn on to Oxford because of the elevated median grass area.

That street is only a little better than a cul-de-sac and can not possibly replace or accomodate the traffic on Bailey Rd!

Let us get this bridge done as quickly as possible! This should be top priority because the City of Naperville chose to shut traffic in both directions probably to save the cost of a flagger or two They owe it to the retailers to work longer hours since a flagger allowing constrution of one lane at a time could have minimized the horrific damage that plaza has experienced.

The weather hasn't been cooperating this year either, they can't pour concrete in the rain or if rain is expected. We all want a quality job, right?

As far as working weekends and overnight, I am sure the residents in the area would be thrilled to put up with lighting units,and jack hammers all night, not to mention the concrete mixers, heavy equipment, and dump trucks ( all with their loud back up alarms) disturbing their sleep every night. Frustrated Resident, deal with it, it isn't all about you. Maybe we can take up a collection to help you afford the extra gallon of gas a week from the mile detour? I'm in for a quarter. LOL.

As far as Flower Man, maybe have a construction sale and buy some advertising in the Sun to promote it.

Host Ted,

I have never seen constrution in my life where they close both directions of traffic at the same time. This is a first!

I don't know how many businesses can survive being down 75% for the 6 months to a year it takes to finish construction of this bridge.

It seems like the city should concentrate all its efforts on knocking this project out as quickly as possible as they chose to close the bridge completely eliminating 12-13,000 cars that use this street daily.

The retailers in this plaza are convenience retailers. They are not destination retailers. They depend on this traffic fro survival!

I am sure for example the 7-Eleven was selling coffee to many of the people using Bailey Rd. Probably huge amounts! With no traffic, I suspect their coffee from the road business is down 95%.

I hope the City does something to help these retailers. They should not have to suffer such severe consequences that are beyond their control. The next crossing south maybe be a mile and a half or two down the road. No one is going to drive that distance for coffee, flowers or to use a dry cleaner if they spot another one on the way! They are going elsewhere as Mr. Jim Barlett of Bloom Above stated in your article. That seems a bit unfair and I hope the City of Naperville opens at least one lane. Closing both lanes just seems unbearable to the retailers!

Causual Observer,

I agree with you. There should be a better method such as a pre-fabricated bridge being brought in to minimize down time.

Does anyone know how long this bridge will be down?

Is the 75th street bridge reconstruciton going to be a complete bridge closing or one side at at a time?

While sympathy for the business owners is nice, it will not save their businesses.

I agree with the blogger that said this is a serious case that needs two or three shifts of workers, working around the clock.

If we have many shifts of workers, there is no need for OT.

Why is there only one shift of workers tackling this bridge that is agonizing nearly 13,000 drivers, residents and retailers. Even the walk way is closed killing pedestrian traffic to the plaza.

Let us hope there is a better solution! And quickly! Someone in the City Hall needs to put their thinking cap on......

By RJ on June 10, 2008 6:47 PM
As far as working weekends and overnight, I am sure the residents in the area would be thrilled to put up with lighting units,and jack hammers all night, not to mention the concrete mixers, heavy equipment, and dump trucks ( all with their loud back up alarms) disturbing their sleep every night. Frustrated Resident, deal with it, it isn't all about you. Maybe we can take up a collection to help you afford the extra gallon of gas a week from the mile detour? I'm in for a quarter. LOL.

As far as Flower Man, maybe have a construction sale and buy some advertising in the Sun to promote it.

___________________________________________________________________

RJ,

1. There is a no mans land plain area between the residents of Olive Trees and the other town homes that border the river across Bailey. I beleive this is in case of flooding by the river....kind of like a huge retention pond! It seems like the length of 2 football fields. I do not believe noise will be an issue due to this distance separation. If noise is an issue, they could at least work a second shift and forget about the night shift.

2. The flower shop appears to be a Pop and Mom flower place. If he is down 75%, it is doubtful he can afford any advertising in the Naperville Sun. The flower business has been a very difficult business for years and took a massive downturn when gas went up substantially in the last year.

Maybe you have never been a businessman, RJ! Your tone does not sound respectful. I would have liked to hear you say I will go out of my way to shop at his store next time I need flowers to help him get over this crisis! That would have sounded much better! Have some compassion for Flower Man! No need to be a MEAN PERSON with no compassion.

To the Editors of the Sun,

I would like to thank the staff of the Naperville Sun for bringing this bridge closing to the forefront. I would like to add that not only is the Bloom Above Flower Shop suffering horrendously from this closure, but all the businesses in the plaza are.

I have been only open for a little over a year and my business was thriving until this bridge closed. I chose this location because of the unusually high traffic count of this street in a residential neighborhood of a very fine City....that being Naperville.

Closing a street in this manner(both directions) is worse than losing your electricity, water and heat combined. It seems like the lights went off and the faucets all dried up the minute construction started. It was almost like the morning after a tornado or earthquake with no one in sight!

I would like to ask City Officials to consider opening one lane for traffic by possibly using flaggers. A little water and electricity is better than nothing.

If this can't be done I would like to see a larger construction crew working later hours to get this bridge reopened. It was truly the lifeline to my business. I already have had to take a loan out as the impact was much greater than I could have ever imagined or anticipated. I may have to take another loan out if this drags on much longer.

If the bridge takes 6 months instead of 3 months, I may be out of business. As many others in this plaza, we are Mom and Pop shop owners trying to make ends meet. We don't have cash flows like national chains to survive without revenue for 6 months. Even the 7-Eleven is owned by a franchisee who is suffering immensely....possibly more than any of us as he depends on these drivers need for convenience to and from work. With no traffic, he is also without the majority of his business.

We now have 2 cars in the plaza at a time in the morning instead of 50. It is almost like being in the deep hot desert out here with no water.

I urge City Officials to take what ever action they can, to help us retailers. We would like to see this bridge opened tomorrow if possible. Sooner better than later! Again, it is our lifeline.

My many thanks to Editors of the Naperville Sun for giving us some badly needed publicity by putting the issue on the front page. I hope City Officials take notice and do something to help!

Sincerely,
Nick,
Owner, Mediterranean Oasis

Ted,

On numerous occassions I've tried contacting the city about this construction and have heard absolutley nothing. Nothing!

I treid the Mayor's office, the city manager, the community relations office.

The only people to get back to me were councilman Rosanova and Furstenau. That's it.

I haven't had any progress in expressing my displeasure. Another reason why we pay taxes for people who can care less.

It's an unfortunate set of circumstances, but it is what it is. I don't think the city owes any handouts as a result. Business owners who have multiple locations could temporarily shut that location down and concentrate their sales and inventory to another location, they could have even leased temporary places in other areas. There's plenty of empty retail space around town and I'm sure the various boards didn't just spring this on the public. How long was this project in the works through the various departments of the city? Over a month? More than 2 months ago? Since the first of the year?

Joe,

I am sorry to say but you seem to be a bit ignorant or naive.

Do you expect an established business like the Little Italian Restaurant that has been there for 35 years to close down operations and relocate during the 3 or 6 month bridge construction.

Do you have a clue what it cost to relocate all that equipment they have? Massive ovens and refrigerators with all the necessary duct work! Do you have a clue of the length of time it would take? It would probably take 3 months to get a permit from the City of Naperville to begin construction after submitting architectural plans! And probably 3 to 6 months for build-out after construction if everything goes off without a hitch and smoothly.

I am sure Little Italian has a very long term lease. Who is going to pay for the cost to break their lease? You want them to risk a new location that may not be as prosperous! You want them to relocate out of the area of their customer base! Maybe they should locate right between Lou Malnati's and Giordarno's in downtown Naperville and see if there is a need for a 3rd pizza place. And if there is no need for them and they fail, then what Joe???

The solution was for the City of Naperville to close one lane at a time and flag traffic as most cities across the nation do. What they did to those retailers who depend on that traffic was beyond comprehension!

They should give them compensation or at least loans to keep them open. They should speed up construction. I would agree with the blogger that said this is an emergency that requires OT to get the job done quickly...unless you want to see 10 boarded stores soon!

By having 10 stores operating at 25% of their prior sales level, the City of Naperville is also taking a huge hit in its sales tax collections....thus OT may be justified to stop the massive loss of sales tax revenue the city is losing. It may be justified to save businesses from bankruptcy. Plus it is a major inconvenience for residents to have this very busy road with nearly 13,000 vehicles per day completely shut down!

Our City Officials need to be more sensitive to our business owners.

When major street work was done in front of City Hall on Aurora Avenue recently, only ONE lane was closed at a time. And it was done very quickly with contractors working very late hours. Now, let us treat our business owners in the same way our City Officials treat themselves. Let us not forget who pays who here!

I met Nick the owner of the Mediterranean when he was builing his store. I recall him telling me he signed the lease in Sept/Oct of 2005 and finally opened in late February/early March of 2007. It was a massive task to get this specialty grocery store open. The City of Naperville put him through many many hurdles and hoops before finally passing him on all the numerous required inspections.

I believe he was almost out of money by the time he finally opened up. What a great store he built with unusual but delicious items like falafal, hummus, kabab, shawerma(lamb gyro), feta cheese and a large variety of delicious Middle Eastern Breads. A very nice specialty store that I appreciate came to Naperville instead of some other suburban town.

I recall when he opened he rarely had a customer. He worked so hard to build his business and finally he had lines of people waiting at 2 registers to pay after shopping. Now, with this devastating bridge closing he is back to where he was when he opened....rarely a customer!

I sure hope the City of Naperville can do everything in its power to save his store and the other stores in the plaza who are obviously all suffering. No one really expected the City of Naperville to shut down traffic in both directions at the same time. You would think they would have left traffic going in one direction so the retailers could have half of their former business...but in both directions is just UNCONSIONABLE!

We have many vacancies in town and the last thing we need is 10 more vacancies on Bailey Rd. As Frustrated Resident Blogger said, let us hurry hury and hurry UP and FINISH THE BRIDGE. It is inexcusable that workers are not working double shifts. No resident is going to complain if an afternoon shift is added. No one is asking for the same workers to stay for 16 hours and create OT. But for 2 shifts of workers each working 8 hours a day. Larger shifts of workers would probably also be beneficial.

The residents are also suffering. It is a 3 mile detour if you go south and a 1.5-2 mile detour if you go north. With the nearly 13,000 former daily vehicles on Bailey Rd. mostly using 75th street, last Friday I needed 6 light changes to get past Washington heading west. Normally it is 3 light changes. It was a nightmare! So it is not just distance and gas but time needed to get there especially in rush hour when stores are the busiest.

I hope we can hear from Councilman Bob as to what he thinks we can do for these retailers. He seems to be the only Councilman in town who seems to care anymore about anything. Where are the rest of our Council Members when you need them? Nowhere to be found! I guess they are trotting time and waiting for their retirement pensions like everyone else in City Hall these days. Life must be easy for some in this world while others suffer immensely!

I know who I am voting for in the next election....you got it, Councilman Bob!

Jeanne,

I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but I am neither ignorant nor naive in this department.

You proceed to tell me why someone can't do anything proactively to protect their business and livelihood but you fail to see there are things people can do. It's the worst of the evils. Take your pick... move, temporarily close, open a temp location or stay in a vulnerable spot where you have your business starved to death and take your chances on being able to afford it.

Unfortunately, this is just business. People complain about the welfare given to downtown restaurants regarding parking, now you want welfare given to these businesses?

One lane at a time would have been nice, no question about it but it is what it is and the business owners unfortunately have a choice in front of them. Weather the storm a few more months if they can, relocate, temporarily close to save costs or choke and go under. Sad reality of life in any business.

It's called having all of one's eggs in one basket. If AOL had but a single internet connection for service and something happened to that link, they would be dead in the water. This is why they have redundant circuits with multiple paths to be able to take a 'hit' like that and still operate their business. The same concept holds true in any business. Have a backup plan for your worst case scenario and you can deal with anything up to and including that.

Some people just don't plan that far ahead or just assume the worst will never happen. I'm not one of them.

According to the Naperville website, this project was talked about and pursued as far back as 2004. It's 2008.

How many businesses signed a lease there after 2004? Again, we circle back to planning ahead, identifying all things that could eventually hurt your business and implementing a plan to safeguard yourself.

I think this is the fault of the District 204 school board, whose reach in screwing things up is boundless.

Joe,

I really have to agree with Jeanne that you are ignorant and naive.
Obviously, you don't have a clue what it takes to relocate a business. There is a Laundromat in that plaza for example.

Do you realize the plumbing that the owner had to build in that store to hook up his 30 washers? Do you realize the gas connections he had to build to connect 30 dryers? Pick up and go where for 3 to 6 months, Joe!

He probably took a chance as most small Pop and Mom operators and put his life savings in his business to make a living. He is not McDonald's or Exxon Mobil with thousands of locations.

To build a Laundromat like that probably cost 300k. Where is he going to come up with 300k to build a temporary Laundromat until the bridge reopens? Just like it takes 3-6 months to build a bridge, it takes 3-6 months to build a Laundromat. He needs to find a new location, sign a new lease, get architectural plans, either move his equipment or buy new equipment, and it goes on and on. Do you think commercial landlords will let him sign a 3 month lease? Most commercial landlords demand 3 to 5 year leases. We are not talking about 1 year apartment leases.

While this bridge replacement has been planned for a few years, the city never had a particular time set in stone. It is not like in 2004 they told the businesses we would start May 1 or May 5 of 2008. The city had no clue when it would start until a month before. Contractors work on other projects and need to finish before moving on to the next. They can not predict rain delays, long winters, or a union strike.

It is believed 75th St Bridge is next! Can you show me where the City of Naperville has a set date in concrete for that bridge repair. They don't have a date even though it is scheduled next! Should retailers on 75th street start moving now in anticipation that the Bailey Rd may be done as scheduled. What about if the Bailey Rd bridge is delayed for months due to intense rain we are having?

If they can't start 75th St in Sept. because of delays, they will not start it in December because of unaccommodating weather. It will be delayed to next May! I believe the Bailey Rd. bridge is a year behind schedule.

Yes, you are really not only very ignorant and naive, but a mean person to be blaming these small Mom and Pop shops for their fate. They never looked for any hand-outs from the City of Naperville. Almost all those businesses except for the Mediterranean have been in that plaza for 30-35 years. They complement each other well and fit like a puzzle. That is why they have been so successful for so long. They are the right businesses for the right location in the right plaza!

You just can't take a 7-Eleven and put it in Market Meadows or Fox River on nearby 75th St in some of the vacancies there. 7-Eleven need convenience shopping centers to succeed...not power showing centers.

Most tenants in nearby shopping centers have non-compete clauses in their leases. Thus they would not even be able to get in these nearby plazas even if they wanted. But it is not even practical to move a business. It is way to costly!

It seems to me someone in the city goofed by closing both lanes at one time. The businesses could be expected to endure a 50% cut in business with one lane closures. But to expect these retailers to endure a complete closure of the road is not ordinary...it is very unusual....it is completely extraordinary.

The City of Naperville should give them all proper compensation for not taking the right course of action. They did not even put signs up saying the businesses are open until one month into the project leading residents to believe they were not reachable. The signs for the bridge construction were put up one month in advance! Why weren't the signs indicating the Business would be open put up at the same time? Again the City appeared to have goofed!

Business owners are not like City Employees with pension to boot if anything goes wrong. They do put their eggs in one basket many times hoping it will all work out. They pay the 18.9% to 21% that subsidizes City Employees who have an option at any time to quit or retire and start collecting some kind of pension....understandably a little less if they bite the dust after 15 years instead of 30 years....but something significant and substantial!

These businesses along with the residents is why City Manager Bob Marshall is able to get a pension of 85k a year. These businesses along with residents are the ones paying Mr. Marshall his salary of 175K right now. They are giving him permanent HAND-OUTS. He should be appreciative.

Now that these businesses that support him have been destroyed due to Bridge Construction, he should be looking for a way to compensate them for their full damages until this bridge is completed. Due to the massive rain this bridge may take 6 months instead of the promised and estimated 3 months. That delay could be a recipe that destroys all the businesses.

I think most of us know from traveling to and from work for umpteen years that you never close a road down completely when repairing roads or fixing bridges. You do one lane at a time and bring in flaggers to get the traffic thru from both directions using one lane while the other is being constructed.

Maybe this could not be done because this is an extremely busy residential 2 lane road with nearly 13,000 vehicles a day. If that was the case, the US Marines should have been asked in lieu of compensation to build a temporary bridge alongside this bridge to accommodate traffic. The US Marines have been known to build a temporary bridge in one day over much wider rivers. Why were they not brought in for assistance or asked to share their knowledge to build a temporary bridge? We are not talking about building a bridge across the Mississippi or Niles River! We are talking about building a bridge over 6 inch deep and 20 feet wide Dupage River. They may even have a pre-fabricated bridge they could loan the City of Naperville for a few months! Did anyone in City Hall bother to even ask?

Your solution Joe of relocating an entire shopping center is not feasible. I don't think anyone in this world ever heard of such a relocation. It does not seem to be practical. Did you not read the blog which stated that it took the Mediterranean Oasis 18 months from signing the lease to actual opening? Maybe you don't read and just write and write like Ken!

And what does this plaza have to do with the subsidized parking downtown that is draining our tax base. This plaza has always had its own parking that cost us taxpayers nothing. This plaza and the retailers in it contribute to our tax base....they are positive to our tax base.

The downtown buildings drain our tax base. We pay for their parking!
The 5 decks will cost us more than 100 million dollars paid from our sales tax and real estate taxes. These business are being raped to subsidize downtown just like the residents are being double raped to subsidize downtown.

This thread has made it clear that our City Officials only care about downtown as we all suspected. They are willing to build 100 million dollars in free parking for downtown landlords and business owners. But they are not willing to give compensation for 3-6 months for destroying 10 businesses. Not even a loan or a grant! Not even willing to hire a 12 dollar an hour flagger to attempt to keep the bridge open by repairing one lane at a time.

If you are not a downtown business, I guess you are chopped liver in this town. Anyway what comes around, goes around! I just don't see how any of our City Officials are going to survive the next election after it was revealed that tax payers were being raped to the tune of 21% to subsidize hand-outs called "retirement pension" to City Employees and Officials. What comes around eventually goes around. If you don't give residents and business owners assistance when needed, I doubt they will continue subsidizing your unearned pensions...especially when the private sector ended all pensions that were not nearly as lucrative a decade or two ago!

Yes, Joe you are naive and as ignorant as they come!

What's really unfortunate is if the bridge isn't done on time and all of the small mom and pop businesses have to move, the city is going to have one empty, not attractive, blighted strip mall on its hands.

I love the little shops in that strip mall, the new market is great and the nice old couple who own and run the laundry mat are so great I would hate to see them all go.

Joe,
I can't believe your latest posts! You seem to be losing it!
These retailers have been paying taxes since the early 1970s to support you and me. You just want to dump them to the wolves! Right!

They deserve complete compensation! City Hall caused all the chaos in that plaza and they need to own up to it! That is not the way you treat businesses in town.

I am gald you are not running this town...you would sink us right down the river if you did not bankrupt us first!

I am sorry but your posts sound very ARROGANT...very COCKY!

Ryan the Realtor; the City has nothing to do with the 75th st bridge project, that is a County owned road, don't drag them into your "hate everything City" agenda.

As far as flaggers, I don'r recall ever seeing flaggers working 24/7 when one lane is closed leaving only one functional lane open. Flaggers are used for temporary lane closures, not permanent ones. The standard procedure is to put a signal on both sides of the single open lane, allowing one side to go at a time. The Bailey road bridge is too close to Washington St for a signal like this to work well. The other possible reason or not leaving one lane open may be the bridge design. If they can't remove half while maintaining traffic safely on the other half then there is no other option.

Building a temporary structure really isn't worth the cost, after all this is a minor road, and seeing it is only going to be closed for 3 months, instead of 6 months to do 1/2 at a time, it really isn't a big deal, except for some whiny residents that are inconvenienced.

As far as the business goes, if a 3 month slow down is enough to make them close, then it wouldn't have been long anyways, and why not blame the city for their failure?

I know this doesn't bode well with the hate the City agenda, and I expect the typical name calling, and derogatory statements so flame away. I wouldn't expect anything less from this group.

Ryan,

If it takes you 3-6 months to install a laundromat then you have a horrible turn key vendor or you picked a bad location to begin with that has inadequate infrastructure.

Move the business or sit there and do nothing. Each business owner has a choice to decide which they can afford. It's pure unsympathetic numbers. Welcome to business.

The city's website has a posting in March that it would happen in the beginning of May. http://www.naperville.il.us/dynamic_content.aspx?id=6338

Again, in April: http://www.naperville.il.us/dynamic_content.aspx?id=7144

The contract was awarded March 22, 2006: http://www.naperville.il.us/emplibrary/ccm032206.pdf

I'm sorry if people chose to not look upon the horizon or plan ahead for this.

Did the owners print map-flyers to hand out to their customers showing them the alternate routes of Oxford, Coach and Harlowe to still be able to get to them? If they were not doing that every day with every customer since Mid-March, please stop the complaining.

Although I love the city of naperville, I have to say that the construction site they have emerged with is a very stupid move. I too met nick, the owner of Mediterrrean and he looked very distressed about his loss of business. Lets get this bridge finished so we can keep this great store in business. (I don't think i can go a day with out their great lunch and dinner plates.

The notion that business owners can pick up their business and go to another location temporarily is ludacris. First of all Naperville is the toughest and probably the most expensive town in Illinois to open up a business in .. in fact its like its own country out here. Secondly, I think some of the bloggers believe that the city of Naperville will give permits to the owners based on their history in their previous locations and allow them to open up the business quickly. That is again insanity. Yes, business owners do have to take responsibility for taking a risk and owning a business but the city also has to take responsibility and protect those who invested in it. You don't close down a street completely when doing construction and you can't say that the business owners shouldn't lay all their eggs in one basket and that they should have a back up plan such as a boarded up store down the street that they can move their equipment to. These are legitmate businesses not lemonade stands. Besides I really like the food at the Mediterranean store and every owner in the plaza is very courteous.

RJ,

Let me see if I understand you. Jim Bartlett who owns Bloom Above stated in the Naperville Sun he feels the city should compensate him, since he lost 75% of his business due to city construction on Baily Rd. Bridge. Yes, 12,800 cars that passed in front of his store daily simply disappeared the next morning!

Many people support his position. And you are saying they all hate the City! I am utterly confused! I am totally astounded with your remarks!

I think he has every right to ask for compensation in order to avoid bankruptcy brought on by a situation not of his doing. I don't know any Mom and Shops that can survive for 3 to 6 months without 75% of their business. Almost every downtown Naperville mom and pop retailer closed down in the last decade without losing 1% of their business. How do you expect these retailers to survive without 75% of their business? Do you not observe when you drive or walk in downtown that mom and pops are almost EXTINCT, RJ?

Keeping him and other retailers alive for 3 months will result in a long term tax stream for the city for another 40 years until the Bailey Road Bridge has to be rebuilt again. This plaza and its tenants opened up soon after the bridge was built in 1969. They have paid taxes for nearly 40 years and will pay taxes for another 40 years. Are you saying they don't deserve our help for 3 months??? Are you serious!

Now keep in mind the police pension plan is $27,000,000 in the hole. We the taxpayers pay an equivalent of 21.16% of all police salaries into it and despite this, it is still this much in the hole. Apparently we need to pay double 21.16% to get rid of this massive deficet. This plaza and it retailers will be forced to contribute to this deficet due to the power of government. But the government is not willing to help these 10 retailers to the tune of a few hundred thousand for one summer out of 80 years.

If this plaza and its retailers have to fend for themselves, I suggest the police and firemen go fend for themselves. I believe the firemen are an addtional $23.5 million in the hole. Together they are over $50.5 million in the hole. City Officials expect us to subsidize them to get them out of their dilemma. But they won't subsidize Jim Bartlett say to the tune of 10k a month for 3 months or a total of 30k to keep him in business.

The way I see it, if Mr. Barlett has to fend for himself, the police and fireman should fend for themselves for their own out of control pensions. If we, the taxpayers, were not contributing 21.16% to their funds, they would be easily $100,000,000 in the red instead of only $50.5 million. This can all be found on page 66 of the City of Naperville Financial Section that was audited by Sikich Certified Public Accountants. Let us play fair and not abuse our governmental powers!

I have lived in Naper Trails for nearly a decade and can see this plaza from my window. It was amazingly busy for a plaza in a residential neighborhood on a residential street. It has the perfect combination of businesses for a residential plaza and served our immediate needs.

On Friday and Saturday evening you could not even find a parking spot. You had to park on Oxford in the early evening!

On May 6, I looked out of my window which is kitty corner to the plaza and it looked like an atomic bomb hit it with no life. The only thing missing were those ashes that follow atomic bombs.

The retailers did not deserve what happened. Something should have been done differently. As a blogger before me said, it is like the city expected them to operate with no water and electricity. They cut their lifeline off from the world.

Every tenth car out of those 12,800 cars stopped and dropped off their dry cleaning, got a hair cut, or visited the new Mediterranean Grocery Store. On Fridays, as everyone in the area knows Little Italian was swamped with their pizza lovers and they alone filled the parking lot. People had to use the fire lanes if they wanted to pick up their pizza...that is how busy it was!

Now, I see NOTHING out my window! NOTHING! I wonder why these retailers are even bothering to open.

I agree with the blogger that said someone should have asked the US Marines to build them a makeshift bridge along side the embattled bridge. On the History Channel, you can see these bridges literally built in hours. It is hard to believe our city could not afford to spend money on a temporary bridge that could be built in one day. How much could that possibly cost! Ten thousand, twenty thousand, fifty thousand!

That really is a cheap price to pay to keep businesses in business and residents moving along in an orderly manner. While this is a residential street, the city knew this was no ordinary residential street. Residential streets usually have less than 500-1000 cars a day. This street carried 12,800 cars a day. The city of Naperville knew this in advance. Something should have been done differently !

It is my understanding that the 75th Street Bridge is next. Obviously the State is coordinating with the City of Naperville to make sure Bailey is up before 75th Street is down. You simply can't have both down...unless you want a real DISASTER!

Bailey Rd is only 4 blocks south of 75th Street and will simply not be able to handle the traffic from 75th Street if the City of Naperville/State of Illinois closes traffic in both directions on that street to speed up Bridge Construction.

The City of Naperville needs to plan now to avoid another disaster like the one we are experiencing on Baily Rd. This road is expected to double its traffic if 75th Street closes down due to its bridge being rebuilt. Maybe even triple unless other alternative routes that would be much longer are found or designated by city engineers and planners.

Unless, that 4 way stop sign on Baily and Oxford is converted to Street Lights, traffic will be backed up for miles on Bailey Rd. That 4 way stop sign could barely accomodate the 12,500-13,000 vehicles that used Bailey Rd before construction. It will never be able to accomodate double or triple the vehilces.

I hope State @ City Engineers begin planning.....it they don't we will have gridlock on Bailey Rd like we have never seen in Naperville. It will simply be another DISASTER for those RETAILERS in Maplebrook Plaza!

PS. Does anyone know if Baily Rd could be widened to 4 lanes? If so let us make the bridge ready to accomodate 4 lanes so we don't have to build it all over again in 5 years. This may be a good time to widen it while they are working on the bridge and before 75th Street is shut down! It would be easy to do since there presently is no traffic on it. As the saying goes sometimes you got to hit 2 birds with one stone!

Jay,

Thanks for your well thought out, insightful and articulate remarks.

After reading Joe's remarks it is nice to read some educated remarks.

I am sorry but this Joe guy seems to be missing something upstairs!

And really, let us EXPEDIATE this bridge! I don't see any afternoon shift of employeess working! Why!

Joe and RJ,

What is with you guys? These retailers are down and out and it seems like you want to kick a dead horse.

Where do you guys come up with your hostility to your fellow man?

We as residents should do something to help these retailers if the city won't do anything. Maybe some of us who are blogging here can drive the extra few miles to get there. I know I am going to!

I commend the Naperville Sun for lettting us become aware of their plight. I do not live in that part of town but I must say what I have read here created an interest in visiting this Baily Rd. and unique plaza.

I never knew we had a Mediterranean style store in Naperville that has fresh falafal and hummos made right on the premises. Well, here I come! Last time I had fresh falafal and hummos was when I was in Lebanon almost 8000 miles away. Navigating this trip should be a piece of cake after my trip to Lebanon 2 summers ago!

Bloom Above, Ryan, Steve, Jeanne,

State your compensation idea in front of Council at the next public meeting.

Right now, the right to pensions are on paper to be given to the people who are employed in their respective positions. Compensation for business owners is not 'on paper' so to speak, for 'lost sales' during construction. Take the steps to get it on paper (a City Ordinance), then it has to be done.

Bringing it forward in front of City Council is a first step. Take it.
Heck, organize every business owner in there and you on the blogs who feel this way should sign up to speak too.

June 17th is the next meeting. I hope to see you all there. I'll be in the audience.

I love going to that Laundromat on Baily Rd because owners Tom and Peggy are two of the nicest people you will ever meet.

They had really been agonizing over this bridge closing for some time. And truthfully there is nothing they could have done to prepare for it. As someone said before me, they are not running a lemonade stand you can just pick up and move.

A week or two before the bridge closing Peggy succumbed to cancer. She is now on chemotherapy and hopefully will make a full recovery. But to see the look on Tom's face between his wife getting cancer and this bridge taking away the majority of his business, could make any one cry!

Some of Joe and RJ's posts are very insensitive. I would like to ask Host Ted to consider removing them. Anyone with half a brain knows you can not relocate a laundromat to another plaza or boarded up store. I mean give these people a break! Why such ridiculous and insensitive comments!

Host Ted,

I got to commend you for establishing this thread a year or two ago. Some of the stuff on here is incredible. It is about time some one told us what happens in the dark rooms of City Hall!

When do you think the print edition of the Naperville Sun will make strides to catch up to your hard hitting and informative threads?

I mean where else can you learn that the policemen and firemen pensions are in the hole to the tune of $50.5 million dollars despite the fleecing of the taxpayer for an equivalency of 21% of their gross pay EACH YEAR! Talking about needing $20 million for an unneeded library parking deck! How about a thread on this $50.5 million shortage in these pension funds? How come the Naperville Sun never reported this? I hope our city officials don't plan on coming to the TAXPAYERS for this $50.50 million SHORTFALL. If police and fireman want 100k retirement pensions, please make sure it is financed from their paychecks and not taxpayer wallets!

I have to agree with Bloom Above who thinks its unfair that we have to subsidize city employees and officials in order they can receive $100,000 dollar pensions when they retire at age 50, but yet City Officials are not willing to compensate those who pay their subsidy such as these Bailey Rd retailers when they are down and out!

-------------------------------------------------------------------

PS. Do you think we can have an editorial or article exposing this 50.5 million pension shortfall in your print edition before our City Officials try to sneak it on next years real estate tax bill. My tax bill for this year went up 19.66% and I can not imagine another such increase next year. Please help us pre-empt another such tax increase. Put them under the microscope, Host Ted! Thanks!

By RJ on June 11, 2008 9:48 PM

As far as the business goes, if a 3 month slow down is enough to make them close, then it wouldn't have been long anyways, and why not blame the city for their failure?

__________________________________________________________________

RJ,

I am a long term resident of South Naperville. I recall the 7-Eleven, the liquor store, the dentist, the flower shop, the Little Italian Pizza place and the beauty salon being original tenants of the plaza dating back to 1972 when it was built. I am sure the laundromat and dry cleaner are approaching if not over 30 years old.

A couple of stores like the Mediterranean Oasis is only a year old but was extremely busy before the bridge went down.

If these businesses have not failed in 30-35 years and suddenly fail who are you going to blame? A coincidence? A tornado! Lightning and thunder!

Who chose to close both lanes at one time? Who wanted to save money on a makeshift bridge that the Army Corps of Engineers could build in one or two days for a reasonable price?

Let us hope they can somehow survive this unique disaster of losing 12,800-13,000 daily cars that frequented their businesses. This was a convenience plaza that depended on these cars passing by...not a regional plaza that may be a destination and someone is more likely to look for.

It seems to me it would be wise to give Mr.Jim Bartlett of Bloom Above the "reasonable compensation" he may be asking for, rather than letting him go out of business and sue the city and taxapayers for the entire business. Let us not be penny wise and dollar foolish like we were in the Dick Furstenau case! We can no longer as taxpayers afford mistake after mistake!

Any jury would know 35 year established businesses do not go under for no reason. It is a little too obvious that the COMPLETE CLOSING of the BRIDGE took them down! This is not ordinary loss of business!
This is EXTRAORDINARY and CATASTROPHIC loss of business! Remedies should have been taken by City Hall! Let us hope it is not too late!

The-Next-Disaster,

It sounds like you are saying that the businesses there on Bailey will receive an INCREASE in business from the 75th street bridge being under construction. People have claimed that every 10th car stops for something in the plaza. When 75th diverts to Bailey (who's bridge will then be better able to handle it due to being newer) they will receive a BENEFIT from bridge construction because more cars will drive by that convenient location.

Just wait it out and reap the windfall that will come because I am sure the city will not ask for compensation from the EXTRA business that they diverted past that location by virtue of construction on 75th that will happen later. That extra business can go straight to their bottom line. Sounds like a Win-Win to me. Thanks for pointing out the obvious.

The city sent us a response this morning:

Naperville SUN
1500 West Ogden Avenue
Naperville, Illinois 60540

I was very disappointed when I read the Bailey Road Bridge article. The portrayal of the city having poor communication on public improvement projects is inaccurate and incorrect. Over the last ten years, the city has drastically changed and improved its communication and solicitation of input from stakeholders on projects. The Bailey Road Bridge was no exception. An Information Forum was held on April 20, 2005 to gain input from residents and businesses in the area. Twenty-six individuals were present including a representative from the flower shop, A Bloom Above.

The city initially offered to construct this bridge in two halves and allow westbound traffic to remain open throughout construction. The consensus at the April 20th forum was to completely close the bridge and minimize the construction time. The complete closure of the bridge was based upon the input of the stakeholders. The city even included bonus stipulations in the contract to motivate the contractor to finish early.

Maintaining the city’s infrastructure is critical to public safety. The Bailey Road Bridge needed to be replaced this year. Due to the bridge’s deteriorating condition, the Illinois Department of Transportation’s Bridge Inspection Team required the city to place weight restrictions on the bridge until it was replaced. They also mandated that we inspect the bridge every three months to assure the public’s safety prior to its removal and replacement.

To characterize the city as poor communicators is inaccurate. We utilize public meetings, direct mailings, door hangers, press releases, Web sites, e-mail notices and changeable message boards on the roads to get people’s attention about upcoming projects. We need the public’s input to help us build infrastructure that will benefit the community for the next several decades. .

Sincerely,

William Novack
City Engineer
City of Naperville

So the residents and business owners knew about it for 3 years; that it would be closed both directions. There you have it.

One tenant was present, what about representatives from the rest? Did they attend the April 2005 forum?

I went over there today (EVL) ready to buy a very nicely priced bottle of canadian whiskey, but they were out of stock. The trip from 87th down washington to naper blvd then up through riverwoods to coach was a nice easy drive even though it was garbage/recycling day in the neighborhood. A lady had her kids in the laundromat (along with a couple other customers) and a lady was looking in the window of the flowershop but for some reason she still kept walking on by without going in. These look like things the local residents should be supporting too. Are they?

This went out to all residents in the fall of 2007:

http://www.naperville.il.us/emplibrary/BridgesSeptOct07.pdf

Page 5

Clearly states the bridge will be closed to ALL traffic for about 4 months starting in the spring.

That's at least 8 months notice that went out to all residents.

Unfortunately, people have a bad habit of discarding mail that contains important information. This has also been available on the Naperville website since that time too, as evidenced by the link still working.

The Next Disaster wrote;

"It is my understanding that the 75th Street Bridge is next. Obviously the State is coordinating with the City of Naperville to make sure Bailey is up before 75th Street is down"

First off, the State has nothing to do with that project. The County owns 75th street, it is entirely up to them when and how the bridge is rebuilt. The idea that they would completely close 75th and use Bailey as an alternative is ludicrous. 75th is a major 4 lane divided road, allowing them to replace one side at a time and leave one lane of traffic each way. It will still be a nightmare traffic wise and I am sure we will have the Napewhinians complaining about that to.

All of you that want the city to bail out the businesses, why not make a point to visit them and spend some of your own money? There is a temporary pedestrian/ bike bridge over the river,you could park the SUV, hop on a bicycle, pedal over there, drop the dry cleaning off, have a nice meal, stop at 7 eleven for a Slurpee then buy some flowers for you significant other and pedal home.

Heck, send out a mass email on your Napergate network and get the whole gang to show up. Not only will it help the businesses, but you will save gas and get some exercise, not to mention it would be the first time the Napergatian bloggers actually did something, besides whine about anything to do with the City you so despise. Ted might even publish an article about you efforts and someone out side your little world might actually notice the Napergatian movement.

PS: Next Disaster, if the County, closed 75th street, why would anyone use Bailey instead of Hobson as an alternative At least Hobson goes somewhere. Unless of course they want a Slurpee or something, then it would make sense.

Host Ted,

I live in the area and never heard of the meeting. It sounds to me one business owner was there. Since I am a customer of Bloom Above and I know Jim Bartlett, he was not there. He only bought the store this year. So he had no input in what took away 75% of his business.

Since 26 individuals were present at this "MEETING" with only 9 businesses in the plaza, the majority had to be residents and not business owners even if all the business owners attended which would be unlikely!

This could be the root of the mess. A business owner who was going to lose 75% of his business should have been given a much higher weighted vote than a resident.

The devastation to residents is a few extra gallons of gasoline and some time. The devastation to the retailers apparently has been a different story and apparently enormous.

I think someone in City Hall should have known that constructing the bridge in 2 halves would have been the better choice and overuled the 20 residents who apparently made the decision with their majority vote.

The experts are suppose to be in City Hall. Not residents living in Olive Trees or Naper Trials with one year leases on there apartments. I am sure the residents' intentions were good, but the consequences of their vote turned out to be DISASTROUS.

Something went wrong somewhere and should have been handled differently. The failure is just to OBVIOUS if you go to that area!

Response from Ted:

It seems odd to me that the city remembers this meeting three years ago two days after our story ran. What would it have hurt to have another little community meeting a month before construction started so the city could get people together and say, "OK, folks, remember, this is what we agreed to..."

Sometimes I think Naperville would benefit from having wards or districts. Some council members could remain at-large, but I really think it would help if the city was divided into smaller districts --maybe five or six -- and each district elected its own council member. That way, the residents and business owners in this area near the Bailey Road bridge would have one elected official they know they could go to and say, "Hey, you represent me. What are you going to do about this?" When there are eight at-large council members, sometimes I don't think any of them feel they have to be responsive to any particular resident or group.

It sounds like a very bad decision was made by more than one person.

It is really like Water Under the Bridge.

Arguing at this point will not solve the disaster.

Mr. William Novack, City Engineer, needs to find a way to speed this constuction up as quickly as possible. Afternoon shifts are non-existent at the site.

And like many others I noticed they did not put signs up indicating that even though Bailey Rd was closed the BUSINESSES were open until a month into constuction. That led vehicles to beleive they could not get through and probably never tried from longer detour routes.

Whose fault was it those signs were not posted a month early with the other signs instead of a month late?

I suppose the business owners!

The bottom line is we do need to rush this bridge before any business owner goes out of business and sues us. We just don't need any more lawsuits biting taxpayer wallets. Taxes are unbearable as they are!

The City should have protected these businesses and not listened to 20 residents who had no expertise in such a serious issue! Residents who did not have a huge stake like the business owners.

We as a City need to do better next time! Learn from our mistakes! Some things are not meant to be voted on...this is an EXAMPLE!

Thanks!

I visited a friend in River Woods on the SE corner of Bailey and Washington. It was 85 degrees and we thought we would take a walk to the 7-Eleven to get a slurpee.

Even the sidewalk was closed...just like the front page of the Naperville Sun showed the other day.

My friend and I were thinking could the city not put a temporary walk crossing over this tiny river so we could at least cross it on foot. This really is a small river...I am sure it could be done.

If not could the city not throw a couple of canoes in the river that we could use to cross the river. That would actually make it fun for the residents and maybe bring the business owners some badly needed business. Let us try to be creative here!

Choking these businesses off from both vehicle and pedestrian traffic is just a bit much! This job needs to be HURRIED! It seems like is moving at a SNAIL'S PACE!

I wonder if the city of Lockport is going to go bankrupt as the state has closed the only bridge into their city. Seems if a whole city can survive a major bridge closing with detours that are much longer than the Baily road bridge detour, any decent business in a strip mall should survive.

If these businesses attract so many 'loyal' customers, why are they struggling. I know I have gone out of my way to frequent businesses I like during construction. Why can't all these business' 'loyal' customers do the same?

Do you really want to start a precedent of supporting businesses that are affected by construction? Once started, the practice would have to include every business, and the cost to taxpayers would be way more than what is paid towards pensions.

Mr Ted,

I am utterly astounded that the City of Naperville is looking for ways to raise 50.5 million dollars to save the police and fireman pensions from bankruptcy despite contributing an equivalency of nearly 20% of the gross pay of these City Employees annually.

This problem was not caused by the City or the Taxpayers. It was casued by police and firefighter unions that feel they are entitled to resign in mid life and receive pensions that are higher than the average salaries of those who continue to work.

It really should not be our responsibility. If they want to live like millionaries when they retire maybe they need to contribute half their gross pay into their pension funds...not ask us to make all the contributions for them.

But obviously the taxpayers will end up paying for this $50.5 million pension deficet with no questions asked.

And yet when a business owner like Mr. Jim Barlett who pays dearly into these pensions, asks for some compensation, he is considered unreasonble. He is told he should have relocated! He is told to sell flowers out of a boarded up store. Set up a lemonade stand somewhere!

We don't tell our police and fireman to go find a boarded store to live in when they retire. We watch out for them! Why are we not watching out for our BUSINESS OWNERS who contribute so much to our TAX BASE?

By Naperville Sun editors on June 12, 2008 9:49 AM
The city sent us a response this morning:

Naperville SUN
1500 West Ogden Avenue
Naperville, Illinois 60540

I was very disappointed when I read the Bailey Road Bridge article. The portrayal of the city having poor communication on public improvement projects is inaccurate and incorrect.

Willian Novack.
City Engineer
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Hi Ted,

I thought this was funny. Was it not Nadja Lalvani, Naperville's community relations director, that stated "Its not really an issue where we'd do a public meeting."

It seems like she was contradicting City Engineer, William Novack, who said Information Forums were important and in fact held.

You were just quoting Nadja Lalvani, a city official, and it seems William Novak, another city official, was attacking the Naperville Sun for quoting another city official.

Am I confused here Ted or is that what is happening. You gave the city a chance and they spoke or misspoke.

The article was very fair and balanced. All Mr. Jim Barlett of Bloom Above said his business is down 75% and would like some compensation to survive. Does he not have a right to ask?

Great article, Ted, and keep up the good work! The city will always complain if you bring out the truth! You guys at the Naperville Sun are finally bringing us the truth and we appreciate it!

Response from Ted:

Benjamin,

You nailed it. Thanks for paying attention.

It seems like the city went out looking for a few residents who would agree with them that both halves of the bridge should be closed at the same time.

You could find what you want when you look!

Yes, this saved the City some money, but it really cost others lots of money and possibly their livelihoods.

Saving on police OT makes sense to me. Kudos to the City Council for demanding this, finally!

But saving money on Bridge Construction that has such an impact on residents and businesses makes no sense to me...bankrupting business owners in town will result in NO long term savings to anyone! It will cost us big time!

We need every dollar we can get from these businesses to help pay for this police and fire $51,000,000 pension deficet. I can assure you as a resident I could never come up with that kind of money. Therefore let us not destroy our BUSINESS TAX BASE!

If there was ever a time we needed every dollar a business provides to our tax base, this is the TIME!!

If Joe can get off his butt and off the blog to patronize a business over there, the Napergatians can too.

I went there today. Even though they did not have the product I originally wanted, I still made sure they got a sale for two items from me. How many of the thousands of Napergatians went today?

My journey this morning started from 95th and Rt 59 and should have taken me nowhere near there, yet I went anyway just to do it. The Napergatian email chain should be sending a rotating amount of people there each day to patronize the businesses. With the numbers reported, no one should have to go more than once a week on 'their turn'.

This seems like a workable, simple solution that costs the taxpayers nothing and in fact will generate more sales tax and help prop up the businesses at the same time.

What say you all?

Host Ted,

I just want to point out that not one blogger out of the first 50 blogs mentioned the word Napergate, Napergatians or Napergate Man.

Now suddenly Blog 51 by Joe mentions those words 3 times. And soon this whole mess will we be blamed on the Napergate Man and Napergatians.

Joe is trying to stir trouble and bait the Napergatians into his trap. I hope everyone ignores him and stays focused on the bridge which is really a temporary catastrophe for local residents and businesses!

Why is Joe calling for only Napergatians to go there? If he was not a trouble maker he would call on all Napervillians to visit once a week and keep it simple!

Response from Ted:

In all fairness, I did mention Extra Value Liquors in the original entry.

Jaclyn M.; from the City website-

"A temporary pedestrian bridge is slated for completion by May 15 to maintain foot traffic; however, the use of the bridge may be restricted at times for safety purposes."

http://www.naperville.il.us/baileybridge.aspx

The page shows a completed pedestrian bridge, you must have picked a time that it was restricted. No Slurpee for you!!!

Mr. Ted Slowick,

Another hot topic that is being covered on many of the wrong threads and especially the teacher's thread is this police and firemen pension issue.

I think you need to set up a special thread for it. It seemed to have evolved accidentally the last few days on this thread and others when people were looking for other city improprieties.

I know you covered Mr. Marshall's 85,000 dollar a year pension and whether he is entitled to a pension while working for the same city that funded his pension.

This story about a 51 million deficet in the pensions of the police and firemen is a completely new story. No one really knew about it. It really is a big story that needs to be in your print edition with a feed to your blog site. The story can be found in black and white numbers of page 66 of the City Finance Report.

This story is trully shocking! Here we give these unions up to 21.16% of tax money to match their 9% contribution money and yet we are 51 million in the hole. Everyone is calling it underfunding.

I am not calling it underfunding. It is really overpensionizing! That is what this is, Mr. Ted Slowick.

It seems to me either taxpayers are going to have to contribute an extra 40% of matching funds to make this work or the police and firemen are going to have to contribute an extra 40% and pay half their wages to their pension fund. I know I am against contributing a penny more. I want taxpayer pension contributions reduced to 10% just like in neighboring Aurora.

Someone in City Hall had to realize that paying officers 60k for starting salaries and a 100k-150k for ending pay, was going to result in unaffordable pension funds. That is what we are seeing RIGHT NOW!

We need to learn from Aurora and very quickly. If they can get college educated cops for 43k we should be able to get them for 43k and not 60k. Have their been any complaints from White Eagle or Tall Grass residents regarding Aurora police service? I have never heard a complaint or seen one on this blog site. Their only issue is with District 204 from what I could gather!

Reducing Naperville police pay makes them competitive with a neighboring town of similar population and a very long border. It makes pensions much less and possibly affordable. And let us face it Aurora police are fighting gangs day and night and risking their lives. If anything, they should be getting a little more but I am satisfied with paying the same. They patrol Rt. 59 in the same exact way our police do. Both police departments are excellent!

If the City of Naperville was home rule and we were limited to 5% tax increases, the city would have filed bankrupty. That is no secret. You can not increase taxes 20% in non-home rule communities. Naperville just did and yet we still have a deficet of 51 million in just pensions alone. How many other deficets do we have that have not been uncovered YET?

I wish the Naperville Sun had a large staff. I wish Mr. Jim Lynch never left us. We have a project before us that is bigger than this Bridge Mess. Please do a front page article Mr. Slowick so the residents can be fully informed. The citizen journalists on Ted's Threads are really doing an excellent job.

Speaking of this bridge, I agree it should have been handled much better. For some guy named Joe to suggest the retailers should have set up temporary shops somewhere really borders on insanity. That is not practicial. Obviously, this guy has never been a business owner! Your article on the bridge was excellent. It was superb. It shined the light on a mess and got city official's attention. I suspect they will work harder and faster....and if they do as I suspect, you provided a great service to this community like a great newspaper does!

I also agree with the comments of Benjamin that the city of Naperville showed poor taste in attacking your well balanced article. It just shows you the right hand of city hall does not know what the left hand is doing. I think the letter from the city engineer to your blog site, proves that beyond a doubt.

I can see why we are having so much trouble in this town. In fact, there is a LACK OF COMMUNICATION between city officials!

Response from Ted:

We're looking into it. Be patient--give us a chance to check it out.

Theresa,

Why should I have to call on anyone else to patronize their businesses?

Do they not know how to advertise or print flyers with maps of the detours/alternate routes ahead of time?

All yall have done on here is complain. I got off my keester today and went and it was WELL out of my way (7.3 MILES OUT OF MY WAY), but I did it anyway.

I did my part. Everyone on here complaining needs to go do theirs or quit whining about it. How far out of your way is it?

Colin, I offered permanent and temporary relocation as mere possibilities for what an owner could have done had they had the foresight. Obviously, there are many options if someone plans ahead accordingly. I dug up the flyer from September of 2007 that said it would be closed in all directions. It's not my fault or problem if people never heeded the warning and now some are calling for 'compensation' for 'lost sales'. I did my part today and went out of my way to do business there. Did you?

Response from Ted:

We're looking into it. Be patient--give us a chance to check it out.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Host Ted,

I assume you meant you are working on this 51 million pension shortfall for police and firemen. I have to agree with Blogger Colin this would be a great story.

I hope this 51 million shortfall will wake up the Group of Four....Joe, TB, RJ and Ken. This is what really happens when you say you want to cut expenses everywhere but here. I just don't see why these 4 think there should be immunity here. Immnunity got us 51 million we simply don't have.

As anonymous, has written many times on this Blog Site, it seemed like the City of Naperville problems have been escalating since we declared ourselves home rule. This was a big mistake of the City Council at the time. Home rule gives you 5% increase in taxes. That is it. With inflation averaging less than 5% we should have been just fine if we remained STATE RULE and minded our EXPENSES!

Now we see what happens without controls and limits. Police are retiring with almost 100k pensions and we are left to pay for them. It really blows my mind that despite paying 21.16% in matching funds we could be in the HOLE $51,000,000!

How could the City Council let us reach this point? Are they not reading their packets?

And really is a city manager who is a former policeman receiving an 85,000 dollar pension going to do anything to to deal with this overpensionalizing issue?

I think not! Case closed! Let us get an outsider who is not a former policeman to fix our broken pension!

I doubt the group of four could pass a hat and collect this kind of money. I wonder if they even have a clue how much $51,000,000 is. In particular TB just posted on another thread he does not mind cuts but not with police and firemen.(he revealed his brother is a firemen). If you don't want cuts TB, then are you willing to ask your brother and/or others to increase their contributions to half their gross pay so they can earn these huge pension. My guess is you are not and want ME TO PAY for it. Sorry, TB, I am not willing to pay for such unrealistic pensions! I simply can't afford to!

I have seen a little increase in business in that plaza since the signs were posted that BUSINESSES were open. I am glad someone clarified the walkway on the bridge is open for part of the day. I guess, I tried it and found it closed too.

I think it is closed during the time workers are working. It may open up when they are done. I am not sure!

It is closed way to often and a collateral walk way should have been thrown over the bridge a 100 feet north or south. It would have been pretty and useful to be able to cross the river and be a little closer to the beautiful sounds emanating from the river and surroundings.

Also, while the Naperville Sun intentions were good printing that front page with a huge picture showing the WALKWAY being CLOSED on the front page probably made the situation much worse.

Now 16,200 subscribers and many more readers all believe it is closed all the time and won't try. What a mess!

Let us get some clarification here Ted to the reader and tell them what hours the SIDEWALK is open. Once a person strikes out once or twice they stop trying.

I hope your newspaper can do something to neutralize that PICTURE which led me to believe it was PERMANENTLY CLOSED!

I took Joe's advice and visited the plaza today. I spent most of my time at the Mediterranean Grocery Store. I was truly impressed with the variety of Mediterranean food from Greece, Turkey, Egypt, Iran, Palestine, India and Pakistan.

The prices were very reasonable. I love stuffed grape leaves and found a 4 pound can for only $6.99. Jewel sells a 14 ounce can for $2.79. I picked up 3 cans imported from Turkey! I also had my first falafal sandwich ever when I was there. I am a vegetarian so it was perfect for me.

Also, the selection of imported sweets in that store from across the world is out of this world. I loved the pastries from Syria that I bought today and tried tonight. Absolutely delicious!

I did talk to Nick! I could tell he is going through some rough times. I guess he and Bloom Above are dealing with persishable products so their situations are even worse than the other tenants. Nick tells me some days he has to throw more products away than he sells even though he cut his ordering in half!

I think this bridge closing has been very difficult especially on stores that carry perishable items.

Anyway, I hope others visit this Mediterranean store. It was truly an experience. I have never seen so many beautiful Hookahs for sale in all designs and sizes from all over the Middle East. Flavored tobacco can be found from all over the world!

As Joe said, the residents have an obligation to go out of their way and help. We can't always depend on City Hall to do the right thing.

But the city needs to offer this contractor additonal bonuses or incentives so he can move faster. 7-Eleven also has perishable items and is suffering. These tenants were well stocked before the bridge closed. I think they anticipated a 25%-50% decrease in business. They did not anticipate 75% plus decreases. I don't think anyone realized closing a bridge down completely is like losing your electricity until after it happened.

Oh, and don't forget to buy Hummos in that store! They actually make it on premise. I have never tasted better Hummous in my life! This is the real deal made fresh and daily with Tahini!

Host Ted,

I wonder if the city of Naperville has ever had a similar experience COMPLETELY shutting down a road with nearly 13,000 daily vehicles per day before. If this is a first for the city, I sure hope they learned something.

Maybe, they should have checked to see what other cities do in similar circumstances.

I am really surprised a decision of this magnitude appears to have been made by 26 good meaning residents. But common, what expertise did these residents have. I would have to specualte that the old owner of Bloom Above was against closing traffic in both directions and was simply over ruled. He or she were not going to order their execution at that meeting.

I should ask why the Naperville Sun did not publicize this bridge more, so more of us could have also attended this meeting.

I think City Officials think people get on the City of Naperville web site and read it every day. In reality 99% of people don't read city web sites. They read newspapers and internet sites of newspapers. Would you agree with me, Host Ted?

I think the City of Naperville should have taken a few full pages ads in the Naperville Sun notifying residents of this massive construction bridge project.

I agree with you totally, Host Ted, another meeting should have been held a month or two before any action was taken on the bridge. A meeting in 2004 to discuss a bridge closing in 2008. I doubt they even knew the year it would be done in 2004. People could not have been so serious looking 4 years forward. I am surprised they got 26 people that early on. That is like a presidental candidate campaigning for the 2012 election in 2008. Who would care?!? Who would listen?!? I think the city erred here by not having follow up meetings!

We now find out that Mediterranean Oasis and Bloom Above are new ownerships who have only been around a year. They were notified by letter a week or two before! Is that really adequate? What could they possibly have done to prepare?

I am glad Joe came to his senses and decided to shop at these stores instead of scolding them for not relocating to makeshift operations only God knows where! That was a class act! At least he cames to his sense and I commend him for that. I also commend him for his call to others to visit these merchants. That is how we can help them! Not by SCOLDING THEM for not relocating as if that really is feasible!

The bottom line is this near 13,000 vehicle road was the lifeline to these businesses and when it was closed their business were destroyed. It just seems like someone in City Hall should have known the consequences before taking this draconian measure of shutting both directions of traffic for such a long period of time. As I hear rain falling(more like pouring) while I write, I wonder how much this rain is going to delay this project.

I will pray that these business can pull through! They have one hell of a battle ahead of them if this rain persists like it has in the last month. I hope they survive! If compensation is needed to help them survive especially if this project drags on due to record rain, I hope City Officials offer each business some small compensation. It will show we care!

I don't think we will be setting precedents for street contruction. We will be setting a good precedent for complete closures of roads for lengthy periods. I also don't think any precedents being set because I don't expect any resident or city officials to ever vote to close both directions of a very busy road again. No other atomic bomb has ever been thrown on Hiroshima after that mistake. I don't ever expect the City of Naperville to drop another atomic bomb of this nature on any other part of town. I am sure we all learned from our HUGE MISTAKE!!!

By RJ on June 12, 2008 5:53 PM
PS: Next Disaster, if the County, closed 75th street, why would anyone use Bailey instead of Hobson as an alternative At least Hobson goes somewhere. Unless of course they want a Slurpee or something, then it would make sense.

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RJ,

Apparently, you must not live in Naperville. Hobson Road dead ends at Washingtion! Boom! It stops! It ends! I guess you are not the City Manager as I suspected or you would have known Hobson dead ends at Washington and goes nowhere. As a police officer for 30 years, Mr. Marshall, would have known that. You must be a new resident learning your way around town and yet pretending to know everything!

Bailey Rd starts in Woodridge and continues east past Washington until it dead ends near Rt. 59 right before the Prarie Preservation. That is why Bailey is more popular than Hobson.

Another reason Bailey Rd may be so busy is it is densely populated with many apartment complexes and townhomes on both sides of the road. Hobson Rd is mostly mansions with 1 to 10 acre lots. Beautiful farm and horse country even though a huge portion has been developed in the last decade.

Plus Bailey Rd. does have this very popular Maplebrook Plaza. It is very convenient to drop your dry cleaning off in the morning, pick it up on your way home with mininum inconvenience. Hobson Rd. in Naperville only goes through half of Naperville and has no convenience center. Even though Hobson Rd. DEAD ENDS at Washington, I will say the road is very scenic and should be experienced before the mansions completely replace the beautiful horses, barns and ranches!

And, yes RJ, I not only want my slurpee from 7-Eleven on my way home but I want my Little Italian Pizza. Have you ever tried a pizza from that place? It is a Mom and Pop pizza place going on its 3rd generation. In case you have not visited that place on a Friday or Saturday evening, there is a line of cars taking over all the fire lanes and gridlocked on Oxford Rd. trying to get their delicious pizza...before constuction began, of course!

I am sure now that the city has finally posted signs saying the businesses are open, people will find their way there again. Unlike the Mediterranean Oasis and Bloom Above, Little Italian is a very established business and should survive!

Bailey stops at Naper/Plainfield as its western boundary, not Rt. 59.

Both Bailey and Hobson are viable detours when the time comes for the 75th St. bridge construction project. Both will be needed to offload the car capacity. The bridge is on the EAST side of Washington and as such, Hobson will get you to/from Washington and bypass the bridge. This is the more likely route for people who still need to continue east to Rt 59 and beyond. For those who need to just get to/from Naper/Plainfield road Bailey may be their better alternative.

I hope when the time comes, drivers respect the fact that they are going through RESIDENTIAL areas and adjust their speed down accordingly. Likewise, I hope parents along this route educate their kids that there will be more traffic around their house and to be extra careful at stop signs and not to go chasing balls into the streets, etc because their neighborhood will be filled with drivers possibly unfamiliar with the area.

As far as Pension funding goes... I don't have a problem changing the contribution rates. If we are obligated to pay out to who is in the system, we have to pay it. Otherwise, we are a bunch of liars who promise employees something then renege on it. It's called integrity and keeping one's word. Do I think a 20% contribution rate by the tax payers is too high? (If that's what it really is) YES. My employer certainly doesn't match that much anymore and hasn't for almost a decade. They'll match up to 5% Bringing the funding percentages in line seems like a very reasonable first step. I believe in paying employees well, especially for hazard pay.. but they also have to be responsible for more of their own retirement decisions and costs just like everyone else.

Sharon, back to the city responsibility: The city is responsible for fixing the bridge. The business owners are responsible for protecting their business. The line of delineation is clear. The city said the bridge will be out. Each owner had over 8 months to prepare for contingencies. Someone said it would take 3-6 to start up a new laundromat. I know turn-key vendors in the industry who can do it sooner, but even still that is less than 8 months. They could also adjust their employment, store hours, product inventory, or work with their banks for the financial 'storm' they knew they would have to weather (when the bridge is closed).

I view this as the weather channel telling you a Hurricane is coming. Some people heed the warning and buy supplies, bring stuff indoors, board things up, fill their cars with gas, make sure they have a generator on hand with plenty of fuel, canned goods, ample water supply, etc. Some go one with life completely ignoring what's about to happen to them believing life will be just fine.

When it hits the fan, which person would you rather be? One does quite well, the other suffers and suffers greatly and the Shock takes a long time to wear off.

Host Ted,
I posted this post earlier today. It appeared and then was removed. I changed the word "false" to "inaccurate" regarding police union numbers as I assumed that may be the problem. Please repost or be kind enough to give me a reason for the deletion of my post. If the last paragraph upsets you, please feel free to delete it. It was suppose to be humorous and sarcastic. I doubt anyone was popping bottles of Dom Perigon at City Hall celebrating Mr. Jim Lycnh's exit! Please let us be a little funny on your blog site once in a while so we can lighten the situation up!

Thanks!

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By RJ on June 12, 2008 9:38 PM
Jaclyn M.; from the City website-

"A temporary pedestrian bridge is slated for completion by May 15 to maintain foot traffic; however, the use of the bridge may be restricted at times for safety purposes."

__________________________________________________________________

RJ,

This temporary pedestrian bridge was just one more blunder of the city. The bridge was closed on May 7 to both pedestrian and vehicles. Anyone who would have tried to cross the bridge the first 8 days, would have assumed there was no way to cross and never returned.

That walkway bridge should have been ready to go the day the bridge closed down. The city knew for 4 FULL YEARS about this bridge closing and they are at least 8 days late in opening a TP Bridge! I would say this is poor planning that led to the crisis even being worse than it should have.

Joe thinks the business owners should have been better prepared with 4 years notice. How about the City, Joe, should they also not have been better prepared and had the pedestrian bridge open when the Main Bridge went down?

And with that front page picture in the Naperville Sun and all the temporary closings of this TP bridge, it seems like the word is NOT yet out that there is finally a WALKWAY BRIDGE. Could they not have located this bridge 50 feet away from the construction site so it would be open 24/7 instead of only when construction workers are taking their lunch breaks?

And now the City of Naperville is attacking poor Ted who really has done a nice and thorough job covering this story both in the print edition and on his unique threads. Please stay strong Ted and don't buckle under pressure. In due time City Officials will understand your duty is to report the news and not cover for their mistakes.

How ironic they tried to blame the reporter for quoting the Naperville Community Relations Manager verbatim! If city officials can't even communicate with each other, how can they be expected to communicate with the residents?

You have been doing a great job Host Ted in the last few months and I just hope you keep it up. I suspect you will be getting a lot of heat and pressure from city officials soon but please don't buckle. Keep doing your job honestly as you have! And don't forget to expose that $51 million pension shortfall disaster. Try to pin them down for who is going to pay for it. US OR THEM! I am hoping it is THEM because my family is stretcheeeeddddddddddd to the maximum.

By taking all our money from us for their pensions, that means they expect us to live exclusively on Social Security. We need to keep some of our money so we can invest it in IRAs in order that we can have more than Social Security to live on. There should be some fairness here!

While policemen and firemen are very important to our city and I am sure nice people, they need to realize that there are many other policemen and firemen across the country willing to do the same exact job for half the price and half the pension. The City of Naperville is wrong in not reducing their wages and at the same time NOT permitting them to have second jobs if they can't make ends meet. That is what most of us do when we can't make ends meet. We get a second job! The police and firemen should have a right to get second jobs after their wages are brought down to reasonable levels again.

Police officers actually start at a salary higher than attorneys graduating from law school. And attorneys don't get pensions when they retire and pay for much of their health insurance. Posted by no other than our TB! I can't believe our city council let things get so much out of control. Are they just working to collect their pay and pensions these days? Have they lost their watchdog duties? Do they just want professional courtesy when stopped by a police officer and in return will give the police the GOLD BULLIONS in City Hall!

Diana did a great comparative study, I believe on the Ombudsman Thread and revealed Naperville cops who are at nearly 60k a year, are the most highly paid in the United States of American except for a few pockets in California. They even make more than Alaska cops and New York City cops...almost twice as much as NYCD cops!

Attempts to post inaccurate competitive numbers by the Group of Five seemed to have failed, as other bloggers posted the actual web sites of other police depts. backing Diana's painstakingly thorough analysis. Apparently police unions were inflating police salaries of other cities trying to get their own police more money. And no one found that out until Diana did her research and compared City Web Sites for police recruitment to numbers being used by police unions for bargaining purposes. Kudos to Diana!

I hope next time our police union asks for a raise based on other police salaries, the Naperville Sun checks those numbers as Diana did. We know our fine City Council Members do not check anything....just rubber stamp everything as the Napergate Man told us a decade ago.

I am glad we all finally believe what the Napergate Man told us. Too bad it took so long for us to believe him and we are now $51 million in the hole just on police and fire pensions! Is anyone surprised why Councilman Bob gets annoyed when he hears the Napergate Man's name? Pretty soon he will be annoyed when he hears Host Ted's name! They probably had an all night party at City Hall when they heard Mr. Jim Lynch was being laid off. I wonder how many bottles of Dom Perigon they popped and expensed to the taxpayer? How so unfortunate...right when Mr. Lynch was putting the screws to them! Well, they may be underestimating Host Ted's potential and may be in for a BIG SURPRISE!

By Joe on June 13, 2008 10:44 AM

As far as Pension funding goes... I don't have a problem changing the contribution rates. Do I think a 20% contribution rate by the tax payers is too high? (If that's what it really is) YES. My employer certainly doesn't match that much anymore and hasn't for almost a decade. They'll match up to 5% Bringing the funding percentages in line seems like a very reasonable first step. I believe in paying employees well, especially for hazard pay.. but they also have to be responsible for more of their own retirement decisions and costs just like everyone else.

___________________________________________________________________

Joe,

Your remarks are very nice and well thought out. You inserted that word "if" in your post. I decided to go back to the Marshall Thread and post Councilman Bob's post verbatim. My employer will match any money, I put in the IRA up to 2.5%. That is it! If I make no contribution into my IRA, I get no matching funds. According to CM Bob we are giving the policemen 18.7% and the firemen an astronomical 21.16% ANNUALLY. And yet we are still $50.5 million in the hole! $27 million for the cops and $23.5 million for the firemen!

My guess is we are going to have to double those numbers or cut salaries by one third and limit pensions to one half of gross pay upon retirement as is standard in most of the country. Otherwise we will not only get these 20% tax increase bills each year, but 40% tax increases if we want to plug the massive deficit that is strictly a Naperville deficit!

Councilman Bob stated in another post that they were not given any option but to accept the numbers thrown their way. My question is who runs this town. The City Council or the City Manager! If the council members are not given an option, that means we are wasting our time voting. We in essence are a dictatorship! If anyone wants me to repost his other post that states this, please ask!

While it may be true Councilman Bob was given no option for the amount needed to be funded, he must not forget that the City Council approved the starting pay of a Naperville Police officer to be a few dollars short of 60k....higher than a starting attorney with 8 years of college! Thus, they started the AVALANCHE and cannot pretend it is out of their hands. Outrageous salaries mean outrageous pensions! Outrageous pensions mean outrageous funding by the taxpayer! There is enough blame to go around and the City Council can not PRETEND their hands are tied behind their backs. Why have a city council being paid 10k in salary, full health insurance and with a pension of their own to boot, if they are not going to watch out for the TAXPAYER!

Thank you!

Below is CM BOB'S POST VERBATIM. There are no "ifs" here, Joe! This is straight from the horse's mouth! While participant contribution is set by the state, taxpayer contribution is not set by the state. We determine that! We could limit that to 10% as other towns do, and tell police and firemen this is what is in your fund and live with it. Maybe they will get the hint that 75% of final pay for pension retirement as young as age 51 are simply not possible...unless they want to change STATE LAW and contribute half their own gross pay to fund their OWN FUTURE RETIREMENT PENSIONS.

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By Councilman Bob on May 27, 2008 11:21 AM
Here are the answers to Belinda's questions in her 5/26 4:55am post about police and fire pensions:

QUESTIONS: How much does a police officer pay towards his pension per paycheck as a percent of his gross income? What do the taxpayers directly and indirectly pay towards his pension? Do policemen and firemen have equal pensions?

ANSWERS FROM CITY FINANCE DIRECTOR:

Most recent data is for fiscal year 2007 (May 1, 2006 - April 30, 2007).

For FY 07, Police contributed 9.91% of their pay to their pension. Fire contributed 9.46%. City contributions are limited to the property tax line item and contributed an additional 18.7% for police and 21.16% for fire. The two groups do not have equal pensions. Each pension has its own set of rules under the state legislation. Participant contribution is set by the state legislature; city contribution is actuarially determined and is based on investment return, mortality, marital status, salary, funding level, all of the same factors as for any defined benefit plan. City contributions are up recently due to the underfunded status of the plans.

By Joe on June 13, 2008 10:44 AM

As far as Pension funding goes... I don't have a problem changing the contribution rates. Do I think a 20% contribution rate by the tax payers is too high? (If that's what it really is) YES. My employer certainly doesn't match that much anymore and hasn't for almost a decade. They'll match up to 5% Bringing the funding percentages in line seems like a very reasonable first step. I believe in paying employees well, especially for hazard pay.. but they also have to be responsible for more of their own retirement decisions and costs just like everyone else.

___________________________________________________________________

Joe,

Your remarks are very nice and well thought out. You inserted that word "if" in your post. I decided to go back to the Marshall Thread and post Councilman Bob's post verbatim. My employer will match any money, I put in the IRA up to 2.5%. That is it! If I make no contribution into my IRA, I get no matching funds. According to CM Bob we are giving the policemen 18.7% and the firemen an astronomical 21.16% ANNUALLY. And yet we are still $50.5 million in the hole! $27 million for the cops and $23.5 million for the firemen!

My guess is we are going to have to double those numbers or cut salaries by one third and limit pensions to one half of gross pay upon retirement as is standard in most of the country. Otherwise we will not only get these 20% tax increase bills each year, but 40% tax increases if we want to plug the massive deficit that is strictly a Naperville deficit!

Councilman Bob stated in another post that they were not given any option but to accept the numbers thrown their way. My question is who runs this town. The City Council or the City Manager! If the council members are not given an option, that means we are wasting our time voting. We in essence are a dictatorship! If anyone wants me to repost his other post that states this, please ask!

While it may be true Councilman Bob was given no option for the amount needed to be funded, he must not forget that the City Council approved the starting pay of a Naperville Police officer to be a few dollars short of 60k....higher than a starting attorney with 8 years of college! Thus, they started the AVALANCHE and cannot pretend it is out of their hands. Outrageous salaries mean outrageous pensions! Outrageous pensions mean outrageous funding by the taxpayer! There is enough blame to go around and the City Council can not PRETEND their hands are tied behind their backs. Why have a city council being paid 10k in salary, full health insurance and with a pension of their own to boot, if they are not going to watch out for the TAXPAYER!

Thank you!

Below is CM BOB'S POST VERBATIM. There are no "ifs" here, Joe! This is straight from the horse's mouth! While participant contribution is set by the state, taxpayer contribution is not set by the state. We determine that! We could limit that to 10% as other towns do, and tell police and firemen this is what is in your fund and live with it. Maybe they will get the hint that 75% of final pay for pension retirement as young as age 51 are simply not possible...unless they want to change STATE LAW and contribute half their own gross pay to fund their OWN FUTURE RETIREMENT PENSIONS.

====================================================================

By Councilman Bob on May 27, 2008 11:21 AM
Here are the answers to Belinda's questions in her 5/26 4:55am post about police and fire pensions:

QUESTIONS: How much does a police officer pay towards his pension per paycheck as a percent of his gross income? What do the taxpayers directly and indirectly pay towards his pension? Do policemen and firemen have equal pensions?

ANSWERS FROM CITY FINANCE DIRECTOR:

Most recent data is for fiscal year 2007 (May 1, 2006 - April 30, 2007).

For FY 07, Police contributed 9.91% of their pay to their pension. Fire contributed 9.46%. City contributions are limited to the property tax line item and contributed an additional 18.7% for police and 21.16% for fire. The two groups do not have equal pensions. Each pension has its own set of rules under the state legislation. Participant contribution is set by the state legislature; city contribution is actuarially determined and is based on investment return, mortality, marital status, salary, funding level, all of the same factors as for any defined benefit plan. City contributions are up recently due to the underfunded status of the plans.

My wife and I own have owned Little Italian Pizza on Bailey Road for 13 years. Myself, I was the original manager of the store when it first opened in 1974, so I have put in over 30 years here. The Bailey Road bridge project had to be done. From the looks of things, it is going to be a nice addition to our little part of Naperville. I have been announcing the bridge closure and showing alternate routes for about 2 months prior on all my coupons and advertising. We've known about this project for over a year. It may be an inconvenience now, but the end result will be well worth it. We have absolutely the BEST customers in the world and there is never even a gripe when they have to go out of their way to pick up their order. All my delivery customers completely understand that it takes longer to get their pizza delivered. Sure, business has taken a hit, but I have all the confidence in the world that Naperville will do everything in their power to move this project along and business will flow smoothly again when it is completed.

Host Ted,

After reading your article in Naperville Sun and this blog site, I have to agree with the majority that this Bridge Construction Project was mishandled.

If there was a meeting 4 years ago, the City of Naperville should have had another one a few months before as you suggested. That area is heavily populated with apartments. Apartment dwellers rarely stay for 4 years. They are mostly one or two years and out! So those residents that voted for both sides to be closed were probably not effected....most likely the majority who voted have left the area!

I suspect the city wanted both lanes closed at the same time to make the project easier and sold the residents on their idea. Kind of like the State Trooper that testified that Kathleen Savio drowned in a dry bath tub and the jurors believed the State Trooper because as he is a man of power and authority. They did not dispute or question his theory that could not possibly hold water if the bathtub did not hold any water. And Drew Peterson walked to possibly commit crimes again! Senior citizens who have the time for these jury inquests and bridge hearings want to believe government and authority. They do tend to vote as is suggested. They want to trust their government.

It appears City Officials knew of the catastrophic collateral damage that would result and called a meeting where they could get the residents to agree with them. Once they got the agreement and recorded it, they never cared to do anything more. They knew if this surfaced, they could blame it all on 25 residents and a former flower shop owner who sold his business just in the nick of time.

I really do find it amazing how much we are willing to spend on police and fireman but how little we are willing to spend on business owners when they need us. Yes, they spend 40 years pumping money into our tax base and we simply can't do a thing for them in the 3 months they are down and out! Not even a small grant for each businessesman based on square footage! Even if it was tokenism at least the business owners would know the City cared. The residents would know the city appreciates its business owners. This is not normal road contruction but very extraordinary. This should be obvious to anyone who visits the area.

At some point I see residents and business owners resenting the fact that they pay taxes to government and almost the majority of it is used to pay outrageous government salaries and very high pensions. I wonder how these business owners feel about Marshall receiving 85k in pension while gainfully employed by the same city with another pension on the way, when they can't even get compensation due to a complete road closure resulting in the disappearance of 12,800 daily cars which translates to the loss of 75% of their retail sales. They are not looking for life time pensions plans. Just compensation to get them through the 3-6 month bridge closing. With all the rain it seems like we are already behind one month on this bridge!

As stated before Maplebrook Plaza on Bailey Rd is a convenience plaza and not a destination plaza. People don't drive to it from 10 miles away. People use it because they are passing by it in their vehicles and it offers convenience. If you have to drive 3 miles extra you do not go to 7-Eleven. You go to Jewel or Michael's to save money. The reason you go to 7-Eleven is because it is convenient and you want to save time, gas and distance. It is 20 feet from the road with parking in front of the store and literally in your face. This could be the reason this plaza is suffering so much. I hope the City of Naperville does not show indifference to the retailer's plight.

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I hope we can see a thread soon about this pension disaster. It is hard to believe we can be contributing up to 21.16% of taxpayer money into these funds annually and they could be nearly 51 million in the red.

Our only choice as taxpayers is to either reduce police and fire pensions or agree to come up with this 51 million in addition to these annual 21.16% payments taxpayers make. I think this should be made into a referendum and voted on. If the city council is no longer protecting the interest of taxpayers, let us please have referendums so we can try to protect our own interests.

While safety is very important, there is no reason to pay nearly twice the national average for safety. Most cops are very good whether they are from NYC making $35,881(2006) or from Dupage County making $41,697(2007). I am not sure what makes a Naperville Cop so much better justifying a salary of $59,216.98 per year plus benefits unheard of in other government or private sectors of society. Let us try to reason with the union and if it does not work, let us endure a long strike.

I am sure we can pay Dupage County to protect us while the strike endures on. They already protect large unincorporated sections of Naperville so they are basically already in the vicinity. Just need to pay them to increase their numbers until the strike ends on our terms. State Police can help and we can compensate them. We could even call the FBI in and they are willing to work 50 hours a week with the last 10 hours as straight time and not OT. Blogger Stuart determined that Naperville Police make more than $13,952.98 dollars compared to FBI agents when working IDENTICAL 50 hour weeks in the same exact location that being the City of Naperville. The FBI are suppose to be the top cops and best paid in the nation! I think some inequities in compensation exist in our city that need to be dealt with quickly before we as a town are bankrupted or at least lose our good credit rating.

By Joe on June 13, 2008 10:44 AM

I view this as the weather channel telling you a Hurricane is coming. Some people heed the warning and buy supplies, bring stuff indoors, board things up, fill their cars with gas, make sure they have a generator on hand with plenty of fuel, canned goods, ample water supply, etc. Some go one with life completely ignoring what's about to happen to them believing life will be just fine. When it hits the fan, which person would you rather be? One does quite well, the other suffers and suffers greatly and the Shock takes a long time to wear off.

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Joe,

I think closing a bridge for 3-6 months is a little different than a hurricane. With a hurricane your board up your windows and open up the next day. If you are one in the hundred or thousand who gets a direct hit, you call your insurance company and they pay your for your damages. Many times they give you 6 months Business Interruption Income if you had paid for it.

This is really much different:

1. It lasts 3-6 months instead on one day. Try surviving a hurricane that lasted 6 months. You could not, Joe! No matter how much you prepared.

2. Secondly, insurance will cover you in a hurricane for damage and business interruption income. No one covers you if a bridge is rebuilt with 90-180 times the damage of a hurricane.

3. Maybe there is no insurance for this kind of catastrophe because cities just normally don't close down all traffic on a road...especially a very busy road that is the blood for these businesses. It seems to me one lane should have remained open to give them something. Maybe with one lane open they could hate at least paid their electric and water bills to the City of Naperville and a few more expenses.

Speaking of electricity and water, could the city not cancel those bills for the duration of the bridge build-out. That would be a nice gesture to the businesses. And if they wanted to be fair they should cancel the city portion of their real estate tax bills for the year 2008. That would never pay for all the damages but paying for 10 or 20% of the ensuing damages would probably bring a big morale boost for these businesses....a nice gesture on behalf of our city officials.

And truthfully, Joe, there is no way to protect against 12,800 vehicles suddenly disappearing the next morning. Relocating is really not an option. They would be lucky to get a permit from the City of Naperville in 3 months approving your plans. Plus, why would they want to risk a new location that may be risky. With 8 of the business in that plaza there for over 30 years it shows they are in a very successful plaza. Giving up their great locations for a few months is really not feasible. Whose to say National Chains won't gobble over their vacant space in no time. We saw how they gobbled all the downtown businesses. This plaza is only a little over a mile south of downtown. The national chains will find it in a second and take all the spots in no time. And pretty soon Naperivlle will have no Mom and Pop retail shops left. Is that what you want Joe? Can't we have some identity in our city besides a McDonalds and Walgreen's on every corner? Can't we be a little different and have some Mom and Pops like Little Italian making us a pizza that can not be bought anywhere else in America!

McFarland,

"With a hurricane your board up your windows and open up the next day. If you are one in the hundred or thousand who gets a direct hit, you call your insurance company and they pay your for your damages. Many times they give you 6 months Business Interruption Income if you had paid for it."

You obviously did not go through Hurricane Andrew or any part of the multi-year aftermath. You prepare ahead of time to survive AFTER the storm passes when it takes forever (sometimes months, weeks and unfortunately years for some areas) for life to return to normal. When your utilities are wiped off the map, the stores are destroyed and there's nothing to be had around, you are screwed unless you are prepared.

All but a handful of insurance companies had trouble even getting an adjuster out to people's homes to start the claims process even after 6 months.

If you haven't been through it, you have no idea how bad it can be.

Everyone makes it sound like the area is cut off from the rest of the planet. I got there just fine the other day and I took the LONG WAY there via the south. I plan on going back next week, again to a place I've never had to go to in the years I have been here before Thursday to get a nice 3digit bottle of whiskey they said they would have coming in and maybe even take that $200 bottle of Crown XR off their hands too while I'm there, since it's a rarity and they are getting more scarce to find. I'll buy my girls some flowers if they have something decent in stock and maybe grab some pizza for lunch too. If I can take the time out of my busy day to go there and throw business their direction, even though I was never a regular, why can't their regulars do the same dang thing?

Amazing, all this crap about the poor business owners going out of business, and now one of the most mentioned ones comes here and says no big deal. Yet another example of people here posting about things they obviously have not researched and have no real knowledge about.

Sharon, why do you want to perpetuate Diana's lies? My source is plainly listed, twice, and no one can impeach it without adding to the lies. In addition, I went to the websites of other comparable cities in the local area, found their police pay, and posted it. No one comments on that, because it just exposes more of the lies about NPD's supposedly high pay. You can pat Diana on the back all you want, but the truth is that her "facts" are wrong as usual, just like her tollway "facts".

By Chris Noyes on June 13, 2008 6:58 PM
Sure, business has taken a hit.

____________________________________________________________________

Ken,

I guess your reading and English Comprehension remains very poor.

Mr. Chris Noyes who is very successful and established said he took a HIT. I guess you don't know what a HIT means. A HIT means his business is down signicantly! Not up!

He did not say business is down a little...or slowed down. He said he took a HIT. You obviously are not a retalier and do not know what a HIT is in retial lingo language!

He also wants the City of Naperville to do everyting in its POWER to move this project along as swiftly as possible. He would not write and blog, if he was not HURTING!

His letter was positive...but it should not be interpreted wrongfully! Mr. Chris Noyes is a great businessman and is probably dealing with the ciris much better than new comers Nick of Mediterranean and Jim Bartlett of Bloom Above who apparently may not have the resources or expertise he does.

Many bloggers had mentioned his very successful business with hints that if anyone could weather this storm, it would be him. Sounds like most of the bloggers were right!

Again try to improve your reading skills a little bit. Talk to some retailers and find out what taking a "HIT" means in retail language! It certainly does not mean he HIT the "JACKPOT."

Mr. Ken,

I saw Diana's numbers. I just verified her Bolingbrook number by going to their web site. Her numbers were all honest and accurate.

Others verified her Naperville, Aurora, Romeoville, etc. numbers. Saying Diana lies, is libeling and slandering her. I would urge Host Ted to please remove Ken's latest post as it is obvioulsy not truthful.

I am going to see if I can track down the Bolingbrook Web Site and copy and paste so Host Ted knows who is telling the truth. Ken thinks if he keeps repeating his lies on Ted's Threads, they will be believed. Nonsense! Ted's Blogger are highly educated!

For the sake of the credibility of your threads, Host Ted, please issue this guy a FINAL WARNING!

Below is the Bolingbrook Web site recruiting police officers for the exact same starting salary posted by Tollway Diana. I guess your 10 minute job of research was crap, Ken! Host Ted knows you can not do an analysis like the one Diana did in 10 minutes. She took hours to do it accurately. You took 10 minutes and all your numbers were taken from unions that were inflating for the purposes of getting raises for their flocks. Ever so obvious!

It should also be noted that Bolingbrook Police Dept. is run by a former fine Naperville Captain who has no trouble finding cops for 14k less than Naperville even though he borders our town. He in fact has 108 fine cops willing to work for much less than Naperville. They are just as courteous and professional as Naperville cops. Trained by an excellent Naperville cop, Mr. Ray McCury with high standards. Let us not continue throwing our money away when we don't have too.

It really shows our City Council just does not want to or does not have the ability to negotiate with the Naperville Police Unions...or is falling for some fabricated or embellished numbers such as the one Ken is posting on this Blog Site!

Again, Host Ted, please kindly delete Ken's last post accusing Diana of lying. She did not lie! Last time we had a similar situaton it escalated into a battle on your blog site and if you recall we lost Ameena because of that battle. Let us not let this escalate and simply remove a libelous and slanderous post and at least issue a warning to Mr. Ken! He is acting very childish on your site. He was issued a friendly warning by Mr. Jim Lynch and did not respond. He needs a very STERN WARNING!

Thank You!

PS. You can have one of your assistants e-mail or call the addresses below Monday morning to further verify Diana's numbers.

__________________________________________________________________

Bolingbrook, Illinois

Village of Bolingbrook

375 W. Briarcliff Road

Bolingbrook, IL 60440

Phone: 630-226-8435

Fax: 630-226-8439

E-mail: cflores@bolingbrook.com

Salary: $45,800

Population: 70,000

Sworn Officers: 108

The Bolingbrook Police Department

is now accepting applications to create a

2-year eligibility list for the position of Police Officer.

Starting salary $45,800.

Salary after 5 years of service will be a minimum of $65,432.

All applicants are required to:

Be United States Citizens of good moral character

Have 60 semester hours (90 quarter hours) of accredited college credit and/or military service at the time of appointment (see web site for details)

Be between the ages of 21 and 34 years of age by April 07, 2008 unless otherwise provided by Illinois Statute

Residency within a 13-mile radius of Bolingbrook is required within 18 months of appointment.

Mandatory Orientation/Physical Agility Test

Written Exam

For additional information call:

(630) 226-8435

Application Packets are available at:

Village of Bolingbrook Finance Department

375 W Briarcliff Road

Bolingbrook, IL

__________________________________________________________________

Some of Diana's numbers are below;

1. Chicago $43,104 for 2008
2. Aurora $45,268 for 2009
3. Naperville $56,397.12 for 2008(notice the highest starting salary in IL)
4. Romeoville $38,968 for 2008
5. Bolingbrook $45,800 for 2008

____________________________________________________________________

As you can see Host Ted, all her starting salaries were verfied over time by various bloggers. I verified the Bolingbrook starting salary because it had not been verified. Again, allowing Ken to say Diana lies when in fact she is telling the truth will not bode well for the future credibility of your Blog Site.

You can not say that you do not know if Ken is lying or not. The citizen journalists proved Diana was telling the truth by posting every web site for you and that in fact Ken who calls Diana a liar is the one lying! Thanks Host Ted for taking this matter seriously in advance!

PS. I could not get the Bolingbrook Police Badge Logo to copy and paste on your template....could anything be done to improve this template?

Joe,

Thanks for having an understanding that we may have to look into these police and fire pensions. I, like you, are limited to 5% of matching retirement money. I can only get it if I make a 5% contribution. Of late due to the cost of gasoline and food, I have not been able to make my contributions. Hopefully, gas will go back to 3 bucks and I can resume it soon!

It just seems 21.16% in taxpayer contribution is a bit much....and sadly even with these unheard of outrageous contributions we are still nearly 51 million dollars in the RED. I wonder what we have to contribute annually to keep this fund breakeven.

As one bloggers said this is not underfunding....it is overpensionalizing. Retiring cops at 51 right in their peak and prime with 85k in pension is the recipe that has gotten us in this hole.

Since Naperville, Bolingbrook and most cities recruit cops up to age 34 or 35, they obviously know cops can work till 65 and be productive policeman. In fact, many do!

Most cops with all they carry in equipment can not catch a gang banger in a foot race. So this should not be a criteria of measuring cop capabilities. But I bet Mr. Marshall could eventually catch any gangbanger as I doubt they have the stamina to go 26 miles....unfortunately we lost him in his prime to an 85k pension!!!
How does that help our city, security or finances?

By Ken on June 10, 2008 12:31 PM
We pay our cops 20k above the national average and you want us to top it off by giving them an additional 21% towards their pensions.
Check out what Diana posted about cop salaries and benefits on the Ombudsman Thread!

While you are there, check out the area average, which is a little more pertinent. Also check the part where posted information shows Diana's research to be wrong.

____________________________________________________________________

Ken,

I was surprised to find you hiding on the teachers thread spewing your misinformation. Diana's research has been verified to be very accurate on both the Ombudsmen Thread and the Bailey Rd Bridge Threads. Web Sites of police departments have been copied and pasted on those threads to show Diana was telling the truth and you were misinforming. You could not even get the Naperville starting salary right on those threads, Ken!

I guess you want us to believe the average salary of a Naperville Cop is only $52,000 as you posted, when the Naperville Police Web Site is offering brand new cops nearly 60k for a STARTING SALARY!Your numbers make absolutely no sense. Diana's numbers have stood any test by any blogger so far!

I can't believe you have taken your baloney and posted it on the teacher's thread. As many bloggers noted before me, it seemed like you copied embellished numbers that police unions used to negotiate for higher salaries. That is a well known practice of police unions. Every unions persuades their city council that other police depts. make more money as a tactic to obtain more money. And the cycle never ends with the taxpayers being screwed royally over and over again from town to town!

The starting salary of a Naperville Cop now exceeds that of a starting attorney with 4 years of graduate work. And he gets a 75% pension, gets full health and life benefits, and gets to retire at 52 if he started at 22. Age 51 if he stared at 21! This is a complete failure of our city council.

And the Naperville Fire Fighters are 23.5 million in the hole on their pension fund while the Naperville Police are 27 million in the hole. You could build the 3 new parking decks downtown with that kind of money and have left over money to rebuild all the bridges in town.

I have never seen a City Council who has lost touch with reality. Where is Mr. Dick Furstenau lately to shed some light on this massive failure of his fellow city council members? Why is he not speaking? Did someone muzzle him? Where is Councilman Bob...I thought he was going to help us a little more on this issue? Where is the Mayor to shed some light? Forget the City Manager Marshall, he is not going against his 85k pension while he earns another 179k from the city that pays his pension with mostly taxpayer funds.

Please speak up, CM Dick Furstenau! We have defended you on these blog sites, and we expect you to give us a hand with this police and fire pension mess!

Thank You!

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Host Ted,

Since this issue has become very hot and taken over at least 3 of your threads, could you run an article in your print edition and tie it into its own thread. It seems like it would be a winner!

Host Ted,

I have to agree with Shale that you need to consider removing Ken's post accusing Diana of blatantly lying.

Where did she lie? I see no evidence.

The local numbers have all been verified.

Even TB verified her FBI numbers as being accurate. They did get a 25% increase after their training was over but they also had to work an extra 10 hours for that extra 25%. Thus Diana's starting salary for the FBI was right on.

Your threads have been the best in Chicagoland so far Host Ted. Let us keep them that way. If you know that Diana has been lying to us, then show us where she has been lying.

If you can't show us, please delete Ken's posts. If he feels she is lying why can't he post evidence showing she is lying. Many have posted evidence from City Web Sites substantiating that Diana in fact has been telling us the truth.

When you allow people to lie on your thread, people like Councilman Bob may not feel comfortable returning here. What if he is accused of lying by Ken? Are you going to leave Ken's post and lose Councilman Bob who not only has been very helpful but apparently extremely credible??

You have people now using their real names on your blogs such as the owners of the businesses on Bailey Rd. This is a sign people are trusting you and your Blog Site.

Please don't let all this trust go to waste by allowing a blogger to call another blogger a liar when there is no proof presented.

Thanks Host Ted and keep up the good work! Tell Moderator Jim, I am sorry I did not get a chance to check in live and say good-bye to him the last day. We will miss him! I hope you continue his legacy!
He seemed to have mentored you very well!

Host Ted,

I am very familiar with Maplebrook Plaza on Bailey Rd. I was a regular at that plaza when I was a home builder in Naperville throughout the 1980a and before I moved to Chicago to become a restaurant operator.

There is no doubt the owners of those businesses are suffering without those 12,800 vehicles. I think some people do not understand the difference between a convenience plaza and a destination plaza.

The big difference is people normally don't plan trip to a convenience plaza. They pass by it and say wow I can pick up my 6 pack of beer on the way home...or buy my coffee and slurpee...or take my wife a dozen roses since I was not nice to her on the phone today! The traffic is what generates these impulse purchases that convenience retailers depend on.

Best Buy or Home Depot are destination retailers. You go there for a purpose and with a plan. You just don't go there on impulse or because you pass by. Traffic is not as important to them as convenience retailers. Their ads that draw in their customers are more important to them and their life line!

Like many others, I am shocked the City of Naperville chose to shut both directions of traffic here based on the majority decision of 26 residents. Was this decision 14-12 or what? Were these residents qualified to make this crucial decision? Did they know the impact it would have on the retailers? Was it proper for the City Engineer to put this decision in the hands of 26 residents and say they made the decision and not ME! It seems like he knew what was about to happen and had a SCAPEGOAT ready! Yes, it is easier and less costly to do a bridge all at once. But will it be less costly if we lose 10 businesses? I bet that plaza does 10 million a year in retail sales...it was always hopping in the 80s non-stop...I am sure it is busier now. Is not the City of Naperville taking a hit on sales tax collections with 7.5 million of this 10 million in sales dried up. Was that factored into the savings of doing the bridge in one shot instead of 2 shots? Why were the City Council not asked for their input instead of 26 residents who had no expertise in this area? I hope the Naperville Sun can get some answers to these questions so we do not have a second catastrophe in the future. I doubt the State of Illinois would ever close both directions of traffic when they build 75th St. after Bailey. I am sure they are coordinating with Naperville and would never start construction until Bailey Rd is 100% functional.

Bailey Rd at 12,800 is close to peak. It could never handle even one quarter of the traffic from 75th St in addtion to its own. Maybe Hobson can handle a another quarter. Naperville and the State of Illinois need to find a way to keep 2 of the 4 lanes on 75th St. open at all times during construction. I believe since the final decision rests with the State and not the City we will not see another catastrophe like is being currently experienced on Bailey Rd.

Most of the businesses in the plaza are the same ones that were there in the 80s when I was a regular. These businesses were all very successful and booming. They complemented each other very well and Bailey Rd. was the reason behind their massive success. It is very unusual to have 6 or 7 of the tenants in any plaza out of 10 from its origination date in the early 70s. And another couple exceeding 30 years with only one new one that being the Mediterranean Oasis.

Their problems are definitely related to the bridge and not to their business skills or planning abilities. The retailers in that plaza are proven success stories. Little Italian is really something else. No national chain stands a chance against that Mom and Pop pizza place.

As Mr. Chris Noyes said whom I know very well, I hope the City of Naperville does everything in its power to get this bridge back and running. I suspect this rain has caused serious delays that we will learn about later when the bridge is not opened in mid August as scheduled. Every plaza has a few weak tenants and some strong ones. This plaza appears to have mostly very strong tenants and is very established.

Let us not test its strength by letting this bridge drag on. Top City Officials have to understand the devastating impact of shutting down the main road in front of this plaza COMPLETELY for what appears to be 3 to 6 months.

I agree with the blogger who said the City of Naperville should waive their electricity, water and real estate tax bills for the duration of this project. It will only be partial compensation for the 75% loss in revenue they are experiencing. Doing nothing will anger these retailers and encourage them to file lawsuits seeking compensation. The flower man appears to be comtemplating some action!

An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of medicine later. The city of Naperville clearly made a mistake closing both lanes of traffic. I live in Chicago and see many bridge constructions. One lane always remains open. Keeping one lane open on Bailey Rd. would have kept 50% of the traffic flowing and assured at least 50% of their sales would remain. I am actually surprised they still have 25% of their business left after losing 100% of the traffic flow.

That means 25% of the people are going out of their way to still shop there even though it is no longer a CONVENIENCE PLAZA. I encourage others as Joe and Victoria have done to visit the plaza during these rough times.

I plan on visiting my parents next weekend in Naperville and I will be sure to visit the new Mediterranean Store as it is the only store that is new that I have never been to. Plus I love Middle Eastern Food especially falafal, hummous, and stuffed grape leaves! I will also be sure to vist the Flower Man. I think he was already being hit by a very bad economy and this bridge could finish him off if we don't make an effort to visit his flower shop!

Joe,

You make planning such an easy concept. Implementing a plan even easier. You can not fully plan for a hurricane. It may hit you or miss you. Damage may be great or light!

What about if you opened a huge make shift operation and the hurricane does not even hit you. I think Houston panicked 2 years ago and it was never hit while everyone was taking the PLANNED escape routes. Many people died and suffered escaping using these PLANNED ROUTES. They overreacted! PLANNING did not work! It actually backfired as we all saw on our TV's! In hindsight, if everyone would have stayed put, no one would have been injured or killed.

Just as you can not plan for a hurricane, these retailers could not plan for this bridge closing. It was going to be devastating no matter what they did!

I think what you fail to understand is this convenience center DEPENDED on the traffic from Bailey Rd.

If there was a gas station off a highway that depended on the highway for survival, and the highway shut down that gas station would die. Period.... It can not be saved by planning.

These stores likewise depended on the Bailey Rd traffic for 75% of their business. When it shut down, they had 25% of their business left.

Why is this so hard for you to comprehend, Joe? 100%-75% = 25%.

Having said that, it is very nice of you to be going out of your way and encouraging others.

But please don't keep saying they could have PLANNED a little better. They did what they could. Now it depends on us to go out of our way and visit them to try to get them at the 50% level if possible.

They will never return to 100% unless and until that road is open again. I hope you agree with me on that, Joe! Planning can not solve all problems all the time. It can help but it can not replace 12,800 vehilces that passed by this plaza and shopped there. I hope you understand!

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Host Ted,

I am no expert but my gut tells me the City of Naperville made a huge mistake by shutting both lanes down simultaneously when they had an option to only shut one lane down by their own ADMITTANCE on your Blog Site!

Thanks for allowing us to blog! Your blog site is turning out to be not only very educational but very informative!

To Anonymous on June 14, 2008 4:51 PM

The bridge being closed was a SURE THING. I posted that notice from the city's Sep/Oct 2007 flyer that gets mailed out to everyone. People were notified at least 8 months before it happened.

It wasn't like at the last minute the construction crews would veer north and go shut down Hobson instead even though the flyer said Bailey. Bailey was planned for being closed, it was announced that it would be closed. There's no guess work there.

Planning can easily involve scaling back their businesses during the time frame OR if the drop was calculated to be too much, to shut down temporarily so they are only paying for space and minimal utilities and not labor and inventory too.

People need to stop the horse-kaka line that they had no idea it was coming. If someone didn't know it was going to happen they were not paying attention to their community like a good business owner should.

As for Houston, people die because they EXECUTE improperly or they PLAN poorly. How many more would have died if they all stayed put when Katrina hit New Orleans? I'd be without some family if I didn't successfully convince a relative to get the heck out because even though his apartment might survive the impact, HE and HIS FAMILY would not survive the AFTERMATH. They stayed with us up here for a month while they relocated to Georgia and in the end, came out ahead in life even though they lost everything they left behind. Life's kind of neat like that. Plan properly, execute without hesitation. Done.

Joe,

I really don't think you get it.

Think of the gas station on the highway that anonymous mentioned.

This is what happened here.

The road was SHUT DOWN 100% stopping 12,800 vehicles from passing in front of Maplebrook Plaza.

Dr. Soper who was my dentist told me he never had to advertise. He built his business strictly from that heavy traffic on Bailey over 30 plus years. I am sure that was what the Mediterranean Oasis and the new owner of Bloom Above were trying to do until the faucet went completely dry on them.

What do you want these 10 stores to do? Build a shopping center on 75th ST. that would cost 5-10 million dollars and than evacuate when the bridge is done. Relocating these businesses would cost another few million dollars besides building the shopping center. Is the City of Naperville willing to pay for all this? The businesses don't have that kind of money.

Again you keep thinking of these businesses as lemonade stands!

Go into the Mediterranean and have Nick give you a tour of all the refrigeration and freezers in that store. Not just what you see in front...but what you don't see in the back. Visit Little Italian and take a similar tour. Visit Extra Value Liquors! Visit 7-Eleven! Even my dentist is loaded with equipment such as built in X-ray machines and all her other dental tools seemed to be built into the walls.

Do you think these businesses have portable coolers and freezers. They are all built-in with huge condensers on the roof running them. They don't have portable window air conditioners either. They all have huge A/C and heating units on the roof somewhere with massive duct work.

I think you fail to understand these businesses all need permits to rebuild. If Nick from Mediterranean put up a half a million or a million to build his store, do you really think he has another half a million or million ready to go to build another store on 75th St. while Bailey Rd. reopens.

While hindsight is 20-20, I don't think most of these business owners envisioned a 75% decline in business. I don't believe the City of Naperville did either or they would have gone with one lane at a time. I think it was a learning experience for the City, for retailers and for residents.

What you are doing Joe, is being the armchair Monday morning quarterback who knows everything. Have you ever owned a business? Obviously, you have not or you would not continue to say what you are saying!

Four years ago, I doubt the city knew if the bridge would be built in 2007 or 2008. Why don't you show us how smart you are by telling us when the 75th St. bridge will be built which is next? Give us a date now! Not in hindsight! If we all had hindsight to benefit us we could have played the stock market and been Warren Buffets or billionaires!

My understanding is it will be built this year if Bailey goes as scheduled. If Bailey is delayed 6 months due to rain and construction problems, it will begin next May just like Bailey. How do you expect retailers on 75th St to plan if the bridge were going down in one shot instead of in 2 shots if there is no set date this close to construction?

I am hoping it is 2 shots because Bailey is already at capacity. Maybe based on Joe Logic, Naperville should be planning and widening that road to 4 lanes if it expects Bailey to accommodate 75th St traffic. But is the City of Naperville going to widen Bailey Rd. road just because it will have a massive overflow for 3-6 months??? Naperville is not going to do that because it is too expensive! It simply is not practical! The retailers did not relocate because it is too expensive! It is simly not practical! That is real logic....not Joe Logic!

What don't you get, Joe? Do you think these Mom and Pop shops are Exxon Mobil with quarterly profits of 11 billion dollars? Get real, Joe! I honestly thought you finally changed! Your back to your old self wanting to go against the majority, logic and common sense just to be a smart-a-lic! I guess a leopard can never really change its stripes even if it tries! We are learning right here on Ted's Threads!

The retailers on 75th St. could go rent temporary space(I don't know where) assuming bridge construction will be Sept. 08 and find out because of Bailey Bridge delays it was May 09. Neither the City of Naperville nor the retailers control the weather which heavily affects outdoor construction.

With this massive rain, the river has been flowing very strongly which makes work much more difficult at the site than when it is only a foot deep from lack of rain!

This bridge construction will cost 2.3 million of which 80% is from the State. Another 200k could have been budgeted to help the retailers out. Let us face it they saved at least twice that much by being able to do both sides at once. Some of the savings should have been passed on to the suffering retailers. The savings were earned at the retailer's expense! They deserve compensation and immediately!!!

If we as a city don't play fair, we will be facing litigation. Let us avoid litigation and be fair to our business owners! Business owners should be treated no different than government employees!

Without those business tax revenues, government employees would be walking around with RUBBER CHECKS! NOT PENSION AND PARACHUTE PAYMENTS TO BOOT!

Speaking of mis information, 80% of the Bailey Rd. bridge project is being funded by the Federal Government, not the state.

Also, for the 3rd time, 75th St. is a Du Page County road, it doesn't belong to the state, so the County is responsible for that project.

Melissa,

You seem emotional and fixated on relocation and fail to read the many other 'possibilities' and 'alternatives' I have put forth on what they could have done.

After you calm down, re-read them again because apparantly you missed them.

By the way, how often are you patronizing these businesses?

Joe,

I am not emotional.

None of your "possibilities and alternatives" make sense to anyone but you.

I stand by what I said in my first post.

I visit these businesses frequently as I live in the area. I loved Dr. Soper and I love his replacement Dr. Chen. Both are great dentists. Dr. Soper retired a few years back for those who don't know.

Everyone in the plaza is great.

Cutting off 12,800 cars from one street has very difficult ramnifiactions for all these retailers!

You can see it when you go there very easily! Let us hope the city speeds the project. Today, I saw contractors working on a Saturday for the first time. It made my day!

Have a good evening Joe!

By Liebert on June 14, 2008 4:17 PM

"Like many others, I am shocked the City of Naperville chose to shut both directions of traffic here based on the majority decision of 26 residents.

Was this decision 14-12 or what? Were these residents qualified to make this crucial decision? Did they know the impact it would have on the retailers?

Was it proper for the City Engineer to put this decision in the hands of 26 residents and say they made the decision and not ME! It seems like he knew what was about to happen and had a SCAPEGOAT ready! Yes, it is easier and less costly to do a bridge all at once. But will it be less costly if we lose 10 businesses?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Liebert,

The survey probably yielded the results that the decision maker at the City wanted. A good marketing or PR person could tell you if the survey was loaded, asked the wrong question and said it answered a different question or sent to irrelevant survey points. Or all of the above.

Example:

-Q false question:
Do you think we need more parking downtown?

-A. Residents "aaa---yeah--sure, sounds good".

-Q real question:
Do think we should build a multistory parking deck at the Nichols Library for the restaurants to use for valet parking?

-A. Residents "No terrible idea, why ruin the Library? Why don't the developers build parking spaces for their buildings?"

This would not be the first time that a questionnaire went out to people that had no stake in the decision, or were asked the wrong question which was later used to shaft other interests under the banner of "this is what the residents nearby told us".

Does anyone know if the business owners were consulted or just notified, did they understand that their business would dry up, how about the plaza owner? Spaces are rented by how much traffic passes by each day. A location with 80,000 cars per day may rent for a lot more than one with 2,000 per day etc....Any Realtors out there want to quantify this one?

Host Ted,

Did the City know the businesses would dry up?

Has the Sun consulted the City Manager pro tem (sp) to get his insights on this one?

Is this the first bridge Naperville has ever replaced or the first commercial road closing?

Is it too late to salvage these businesses, should the City give the businesses a property tax rebate to soften the blow since the value of the location now is approaching zero?

RJ,

While you may be right on both your minor points, it does not take away from Melissa's debating points against Joe.

She did not know about Federal funding instead of state, as you did not know that Hobson ended at Washington while Bailey went a few miles more westward to Naperville/Plainfield Rd. You erroneously thought Hobson can take you further into Naperville than Bailey. No big deal! We all stand to be corrected.

I would have liked to see you discuss some of Joe's suggestions of relocating these businesses as if they were lemonade stands. That was the jist of what Melissa was trying to say. She was just trying to say Joe is like a Monday morning quarterback who has all the answers a day too late!

Anonymous made a great point about the gas station on the highway that just closed traffic in all directions! This is pretty much what happened. There is very little you can do but wait it out.

Apparently the City of Naperville reads these blogs and now has construction crews working on Saturday to help move this project along and make up for all the rain days. This is what we need...communication! This is a result of the thread Ted put up. I never saw any construction crews on a Saturday so I was happy to read Melissa's comments.

The city is providing no communication...but Ted's Blogs seem to be providing the communication back and forth that is lacking from City Hall!

I believe everyone in the City is reading this blog site and responding to the residents whenever they can. Most city employees do care about the residents and business owners and are aware that without them they would have no paychecks. It is only a minority of city employees who are greedy or selfish and do not care one iota about residents and business owners. I am sorry but I feel some of our city council members do not care about this town but only the perks and powers of their postions!

Maybe Ted's Threads will make peace between the residents, businesses and City Officials by providing the communication we all need! As we saw in an earlier post 2 City Officials gave different answers to the same question posed by the Naperville Sun. And then blamed the Sun for printing a bad story that was based on comments of one of the City Officials! It was hilarious!

At least we all saw how a newspaper can get blamed for doing a good job and reporting fairly from both sides of a dispute.

Make a long story short, the retailers are suffering and the City needs to put the metal on the pedal!

Host Ted,

I see another problem with these pensions for police and firemen. They are not held accountable for making bad investments. For example, if these funds lost a huge portion of their money in the 2000 and 2001 stock market bubble like all private funds, we the taxpayers have to replenish these funds in a way that any police officer can get his 75% pension whatever age he wants to retire at or after 30 years. This could also be the problem with the shortfall of $51.5 million dollars.

The police and fire fund managers lost tons of money in the bubble collapse. Rather than swallow it like the private sector, their losses are simply billed to us under the guise of an actuarian or whatver they call those estimators.

United Airlines had a great pension plan. The money was lost in the 2000-2001 stock market bubble and the employees lost all their money. They were even asked to take 20% pay cuts after extensive head cuts on the chopping blocks.

In Naperville everything is guaranteed by the taxpayers for the police and firemen. They contribute 9% of their wages and about 21% is contributed by the taxpayer as double matching and more. Then they invest it. That should be enough for any pension. That is way more than Social Security and 3 times when teachers put in.

But these police and fire union pension fund managers must have lost the money in the bubble. The police union should just tell the rank and file the truth and ask them to take pension cuts upon retirement and to delay retirement.

But apparently the City Council was asleep behind the wheel when negotiating with the police unions and guaranteed to fund these pensions rain or shine, so that police can get 75% at age 51. Well with all the investment money being lost by bad investment managers, they have come to us to basically refund their pensions to start all over again. How unfair!

If they knew that their investments would be lost if they made bad and risky investments, they would have been more conservative in their choice of invesments. But what is the sense of being conservative when the City Council is guaranting the difference no matter how bad these police and fireman pension managers are!

I think a new City Council needs to be elected to completely overhaul the pension system. Give the police and firemen 10% and tell them if you screw up your investments, you deal with it by reducing your pensions. Don't tell us we underfunded you! Be men and women and admit you screwed up your investments and overpensionalized yourselves. Fix your problems! Don't come back to us. We gave you 10% and that is it. We are getting you off the bottle!

We basically have our police and firefighters on the bottle sucking our milk and blood out. Everything for them is risk free. Blow your pension funds and come back to the taxpayers and tell them we don't have enough funds so that we can take 75% upon retirement. Please replenish us! No, this has to stop right now!

Melissa,

Of course the bridge closure has ramifications. No one said it didn't so I'm not really sure what you were trying to argue. Businesses have to plan for the loss of customers for the duration and adjust their business accordingly however they see fit to survive through it. Plain and Simple.

Anon,

I went to this informal meeting as a representative of my apartment complex which is on the SE corner of Bailey and Washington. Our residential concern at the time was the noise which really has not been anything unbearable.

I recall the residents and retailers were given 2 options.

1. To close the bridge completely for 4 months.

2. Or to do it one lane at a time which the city said would take over a year or more with bad winter weather.

The majority did want one lane to stay open...but city officials were pushing for the complete closure which received massive resistance from both retailars and residents the way I recall it.

I don't recall a vote or a survey. I recall informal negotiations...more like discussions. The city was really pushing for complete closure. Initially, they were talking 4-6 months of complete closure. No one would agree with that!

Finally city officials sweetened the deal and told everyone that they would put bonuses in the contract to speed up the project and hopefully it will be done in 4 months or less.

No one was really allowed to vote. I don't recall any formal survey. I just recall city officials pushing for the complete closure as the most practical and efficient way to get the job done.

It seemed like to many of us, doing it in parts would take twice as long and that is what the majority seemed to want. The City made it clear it would not take twice as long but four times as long.

We left that meeting with no decision being made. I am sure there was no voting or surveys. But residents and some retailers expressed strong opinions.

The city never consulted with us again after the 2004 meeting. They took the input from us and made the decision.

The consensus was unanimous to do it half at a time and let it take twice as long. Once the city said, hopefully truthfully, it will take at least 4 times as long, the unamimous consensus seemed to have faltered quite a bit.

I believe the City of Naperville made the final decision. They did seek our input and I believe they influenced it when they said it would take over a year to do it in 2 parts and it would be much more costly.

Did anyone envision in 2004, that the impact would be this hard on the retailers? No! Most of the residents in River's Edge now seem to go to the 7-Eleven just south of us even though it is a block or 2 further. Reason being is the sidewalk bridge seems to be closed whenever heavy equipment is functional for safety reasons. I talked to Sayed, the gentleman who owns 7-Eleven on Bailey Rd. and he said he was devastated. The look on his face showed it. I believe he depended on that traffic for 90% of his business...more then any other retailer. And us pedestrian customers can't even reach him most of the time. Once you try a few times and the bridge is closed, you are conditioned to go to the other 7-Eleven a little furher away.

Sayed does not own the other 7-Eleven on S. Washingotn that was formerly a White Hen! And obviously he would not be able to relocate there as Joe seems to suggest because there already is a 7-Eleven franchisee with rights there. So Sayed is really between a rock and a hard place. I believe he is working a second job to help keep his store remain open. Many of us make attempts to go there when the bridge Pedestrian Walkway is open. It just seems like the City of Naperville should have located it away from the contruction zone so it could be open all the time. Also PW was opened over a week late and most people never tried again after the first week.

It just seems like so much went wrong from lack of planning on the part of the City and not the residents and retailers. The residents are surviving as the noise has been bad but not terrible if you close your windowns and curtains. We are tolerating it but we want it over as soon as possible. We hate these rain days that drag this thing on and on!

However, I think the City of Naperville should show some class and make some concessions to the retailers. Really, would it kill the City of Naperville to cancel their electric and water bills during the duration of construction???

As, you hinted this plaza has 0 value, with no traffic in front of it. No one builds a plaza in a desert. There should be no real estate bill for these tenants during the duration of the bridge reconstruction. These are simple gestures that will not bring back all those sales, but it would show the City of Naperville cares.

And we should set a precendent that if a bridge has to go down in this way affecting retailers to this extent, that some compensation is in order. This is not ordinary road contstruction where business is down 10% and should be tolerated by the retailers. This is once a century extraordinary construction...I would say we are talking about an alligator compared to a lizard here. They look alike but one is ferocious and one is almost harmless!

Anon,

I have to agree with your speculation. The city wanted it done the way it is being done and just loaded the questions to those who showed up to obtain nods and winks or whatever may have happened at this meeting.

Rather than have this meeting, could they have not studied a similar scenario somewhere else in the nation and seen the impact.

The Minnesota bridge went down and I read an article that businesses on both sides of the bridge had to board up after traffic dried up. Of course, that was a real catastrophe, but the impact on retailers along side the bridge has to be similar. I think that bridge is going to take much longer to rebuild...years....so they had no choice but to walk away. The article did not say if they were given compensation or if insurance policies covered the retailers. It just said they all boarded up and left within weeks!

In the Minnesota case, the bridge went down as one piece. There was no option to build it in two pieces and keep traffic open in one direction.

In the Bailey Rd. case we had an option to keep it open in one direction. We had an option to install a make shift bridge like the Marines and Navy use that can be built in one day. The Minnesota Bridge is over the mighty Mississippi. Bailey is over the one foot usually sleepy West Branch of the Dupage River. Huge difference! Maybe if the river is deep enough the city should/could have provided water taxi service at no charge to get people across this bridge...created a Venice atmosphere and brought some excitement to the suffering residents and retailers in the area.

It just seems like the City went the cheap way. We all want the City of Naperville to save money but not when it destroys businesses. Saving money by using private security at the Charities instead of OT cops is one thing. This is a completley different monster. It is almost an emergency of sorts.

And what about if we have an emergency. Since there is no way to cross this river emergency vehicles will be delayed possibly up to 5 minutes from a victim suffering a heart attack because they also have to take all these detours.

There is no city sign indicating the plaza can be reached from Oxford on 75th St. at least if your are heading east. Can't be reached if you are heading west due to the median separating east from west. All the signs take you all the way to Naper. Blvd before you can head back south and turn back east. By the time residents take all the detours they are right at Market Meadows and Fox River Shopping Centers. If signs were posted on Oxford and residents were allowed to use Oxford, those businesses would have a tiny chance....a fighting chance!

The Southern detour is at least 3-4 miles....much longer than the Northeren detour. With gas prices as high as they are, I don't see someone driving an extra 6-8 miles for a 6-pack of beer, slurpee, or flowers. It just ain't going to happen. Residents are also stressed especially from the price of gasloine...saw it today for $4.45 for premium...could not believe my eyes. They can no longer vist this plaza on a regular basis....that is like driving an extra 200 miles a month to be daily customer as before. Really not practical to spend more on gasoline to buy a cup of coffee than the coffee costs itself.

In the final analysis either the city made a mistake or was watching out for taxpayer expenses. If the city did save a lot of money because it did it in one stroke as opposed to 2, I do believe some of the savings should be passed on to the retailers who are really enduring and suffering the cost of these savings.

I guess there is a time to save....and there is a time not to save! This may have been a bad time for the city of Naperiville to wise up and save!

They should have been looking at the $50,000,000 pension funds if they truly wanted to save and not the $50,000 or even $500,000 they may have saved on doing both directions of Bailey Bridge together. And since the Federal Govt was paying for 80% of the bridge reconstruction, we only saved $10,000- $100,000. WAS THIS SAVINGS REALLY WORTH ALL THE SUFFERING INFLICTED ON THE RETAILERS. I think NOT!

By Ken on June 14, 2008 8:38 AM
Amazing, all this crap about the poor business owners going out of business, and now one of the most mentioned ones comes here and says no big deal. Yet another example of people here posting about things they obviously have not researched and have no real knowledge about.

____________________________________________________________________

Ken,

The Little Italian owner,(I forgot his name, sorry) did not say it was not a big deal. I just can't believe how you misinterpreted what he said and even LIED!

He said he is taking a hit. Taking a hit in retailing means he is being beaten up. You guys complain about people whining. He was being positive and not whining. But he did not say it was not a big deal.

Again, he said he took a hit, Ken? Please try to read more carefully in the future. You are becoming the source of misinformation on the Sun's Blog Site. I would like to see this Blog Site be informative and credible. Let us try to keep it that way, Ken!

Thank you....

PS. I believe Little Italian is suffering the least out of the bunch and yet it appears he is suffering. Keep in mind this man is established 34 years and sells a unique product that no one else sells and is taking a hit.

Imagine the 7-Eleven. He lost all his 12,800 traffic car count and he has a competitor(identical 7-Eleven) a few blocks south of Washington according to the River's Edge Resident. Are you going to tell me he is not devastated! Don't even try, Ken! For Heaven's Sake the man went out and got a second job and the city won't cancel his utility bills for 3 or 4 months. Have mercy! What kind of City are we!

Blake, I was and am well aware that Hobson ends at Washington. The point was, and still is , that when 75th is reduced to one lane each way when the County replaces the bridge, which is east of Washington, many more people will use Hobson as an alternate, as opposed to Bailey. It doesn't matter that Bailey goes west of Washington, as the lane reductions will be east of that point. drivers coming from the south may opt for Bailey, but Bailey east of Naper is a winding residential street with a low speed limit, that ends at Ranchview. It will take you to Naper and College, where you can go north to 75th, but Hobson will see much more of the traffic as it has a higher speed limit and will take you to Rt 53 and beyond.

Bailey west of Washington is also a winding residential street with a low speed limit, which would not be the 1st choice, except for those who have no regard for obeying speed limits outside of their own neighborhood.

Joe,

None of the solutions you presented on this blog site make any sense! You have no clue of the difficulty of opening a business from scratch for moms and pops.

They are not McDonald's or Starbucks that know how to break barriers down at City Hall and get their permits in one month. It takes months and months to get a permit out of City Hall if you are not a national chain. Most of these tenants got their permits before the national chains took over our town.

I think it is very important to keep these 30-35 year mom and pop shops open especially because they are now extinct in downtown Naperville. It is nice to have flavor in our town...to have some tradition!

Your planning and relocation plans really are as nonsensical as can be. I hope you never have to plan and execute a plan for a hurricane evacuation. You would probably send us right into the eye of the hurricane and tell us to move whichever way the eye moves!

The plaza does have some destination businesses.

I don't know anyone who drives by a place and says, "Hey, I fancy a root canal about now, let me hop in and get one on the way home from work".

Likewise, no one I know carries their laundry in their car and says "Hey, I happen to have my underwear and shirts with me, let me stop in here for an hour or two and wash them up before I continue on to Best Buy".

I know people who have told me about the pizza place for years now and after some activities that our kids share downtown, they always stop in there and take dinner home (they live on the south east part of town) and still travel down Washington and use (I believe it's Oxford) to still get their pizza to continue on home. It's the same .8 miles from Washington/75th whichever way they go so the bridge being out causes them no extra travel time. Even if it did, from what I hear the food in the Italian place and Medit. place are 'worth the trip'.

Plazas like this are also destination spots for the locals. Why isn't there more ongoing local support?

By RJ on June 11, 2008 9:48 PM

Building a temporary structure really isn't worth the cost, after all this is a minor road, and seeing it is only going to be closed for 3 months, instead of 6 months to do 1/2 at a time, it really isn't a big deal, except for some whiny residents that are inconvenienced.

As far as the business goes, if a 3 month slow down is enough to make them close, then it wouldn't have been long anyways, and why not blame the city for their failure?

___________________________________________________________________

RJ,

I don't think you are a retailer or understand retailing.

A retailer many times works on a 20% gross profit margin.

If he is doing $200,000 in sales per month against 160,000 in expenses, he makes a 40,000 gross profit and maybe a 10,000 net profit.

If his sales shrink 75% to $50,000 per months and he still has $160,000 in expenses, he will lose $110,000 per month. If the bridge goes on for 4 months as is expected, he will suffer a $440,000 gross profit loss. If there is a 2 month delay it will cost him $660,000 dollars in losses. Is that sustainable to most businesses...NO!

Can you take this kind of hit, RJ! I doubt it! And the ones that can take this kind of hit are using their life savings.

This road and its 12,800 vehicles may be a minor road to you, RJ, but it is not a minor road to the retailers who live off of it...it is their lifeline!

Building a temporary structure over the bridge to you is not worth the cost, but to the retailers it saves there businesses.

Your thinking is very selfish, RJ!

And you really want to believe if these 35 year businesses go out of business, "it would have not been long anyways." I showed you an example of how fast a business can crumble no matter how strong it is.

Thornborg Mortgage was the strongest mortgage company in America with the least risky loans. When the sub-prime mortgage crises took place it was literally swept to bankruptcy. Not of its own doing but because others called its loans when they got in trouble...it was an avalanche!

Let us make sure Bailey Rd does not become an avalache that leads to 10 business failures. If these businesses fail, it is not because they were on the last leg...it is because the City of Naperville chopped their legs off! Thornborg Mortgage went from $26 dollars on the NYSE to about .63 cents in a few short days! Businesses are very sensitive to their environments and surroudings. This Bailey Rd. Bridge is no laughing matter to those 10 retailers!

Serious delays will certainly take some of these businesses down without compensation from the city. Compensation after they are down and out, usually does no good. It has to be while they are still hanging in there! Let us not forget they have been part of our tax base that subsidized City Hall for over 35 years. Now that Naperville has grown by leaps and bounds, I guess they can afford to watch some businesses go out of business as opposed to offering minor compensation!

It reminds me of how we would rather spend a few million to run Councilman Dick Furtenau out of town instead of offering him his 100k of losses....he may even take half of that. But no, our city operates like no other city in America. If it is practical, they won't do it.

It was practical to build a make shift bride...of course we did not because it was simply too practical!

Rivers Edge,

The City could have built a wooden two lane bridge for cars and light trucks in a week or two and used a gravel road to connect to the real road or put down a thin layer of asphalt or planks.

If Caesar could cross the Rhine on a DIY wooden bride and the military engineers of the US Civil war could put trains on rapidly constructed wooden brides, I am confident the City could have built one too.

Yes they make some noise when the planks bounce up and down, but thats about it. In my town we had a 100+ year old bridge over the rail line made of wood, it was periodically rebuilt out of what looked like phone poles and 6x8s. It was a one lane bride with stop signs that took everything up to 2.5 ton trucks.

Looking at Google Earth, just N of the existing bridge it appears that there is plenty of room for a two lane wooden bridge with poles pounded into the river. The bridge could have been left for pedestrians and bicycles when finished. The same cranes that will probably be used to build the new bridge could have easily constructed a wooden one. Just a hunch, but it probably would have been both fun and inexpensive to build.

It's may or may not be too late for this location, but maybe next time the City can apply a time-proven low-tech-bridge to fill the gap.

River's Edge Resident,

Thanks for shedding so much light on the situation with first hand knowledge. That is why I love these blogs. Someone always comes up with the real scoop sooner or later.

It sounds like Anon was right. City Engineers had something in their minds and they just brought the residents in to persuade them that their course is the right course.

Now that things have not gone so well with the Bailey Bridge and it is two weeks behind schedule because of all the rain, and the retailers are suffering much more than anyone could have anticipated, the City of Naperville found a scapegoat...

The 26 residents who cared to attend and be good citizens are now being blamed for this mess...really! How convenient! I guess now we know why they have these meetings. To blame engineering decisions on the residents when they backfire...lol...!!!

PS. I agree with Editor Ted...why was there not a second meeting to rehash the first meeting of 4 years ago right before the bridge closed down, to make sure everyone was on the same page?????????????????

To view wooden bridges over just about anything, go to this site.

Thank God for Al Gore and Al Gore for inventing the internet. To make up for our exhaust CO2 emissions we should all buy carbon credits from Al so he can afford AV gas for his jet.

http://bridgehunter.com/category/tag/timber-stringer/

Herbert,

You are suffering from the same affliction of only latching onto the relocation option. I also put forth they could scale back their employees, inventory, possibly even their hours of take an extended vacation leave and close up shop for a while to keep their costs down or do nothing and wait it out.

All of those are possible options an owner could take. Please don't try to argue one piece of it just for the sake of arguing. You're just embarrassing yourself amongst some of your otherwise decently informative posts.

I can't believe this. I post one thing in the morning, go and spend a nice day with my family, and come back to find many people calling me names and once again calling for me to be banned. Once again, I have to note that if you can't attack the message, attack the messenger.

By the way, I would like to recommend to you people that spend your whole life here making hateful and spiteful, even libelous posts, to try spending a little more time with your family. I went to one of my kids ballgame, and then we went to an exciting Joliet Jackhammer game. You people need to get a life outside of these forums.

A few quick things before I join the family in the pool and enjoy this nice break in the weather today.

Briana, while it is flattering that you try to copy my phrases, please not only try to copy them correctly, but also adhere to them. Anyone with even the smallest amount of reading comprehension would realize that Chris Noyes post was upbeat and that he approved of the bridge rebuilding. He obviously planned for the closure and notified his customers well in advance. Taking his one statement of taking a hit (and note he did not say how much of one, just a hit), does not change the fact that he seems happy with the projected end results of the project, and the fact that good planning will protect your business as Joe has been saying all along.

Shale, some of Diana's numbers could be correct, but the Daily Herald and Sheriff John Zaruba disagree. I have sent an email to the sheriff requesting verification; we shall see if he replies. However, Shale, that is not where the lies occur. The lie is that everyone here conveniently ignores the numbers I took from comparable city's websites that show Naperville's pay is very similar to other suburbs that have the same kind of wealth, even though several of those suburbs (like Oak Brook), have much smaller populations. Comparing Naperville to Aurora, Bolingbrook, Romeoville, etc. is not a valid comparison. Diana also posted that the only other cities that paid such high starting salaries were in California. My numbers taken from some local suburb's websites prove that false. I notice no one tries to dispute those facts when making their false accusations against me.

On that same note, many seem to laud Diana for having to spend so much time doing simple information searches. I can't help that I am more skilled in finding information in 10 minutes than she is taking all night. Of course, these admirers have all admitted that it is too hard to click on the archives to follow a thread that has moved from the main page.

This brings up another point. Many are calling for a thread on the perceived police salary/pension problem. There is already a thread covering that, you just have to go to the Bob Marshall Pension thread. I guess many here just enjoy taking over every thread to promote their agenda, which is why I am forced to reply on the multiple threads the cult has taken over (this is in response to your question, Liebert, as you can't seem to comprehend the cult agenda of complete takeover of this board).

Well, time to join the family. I wish some of you 24/7 posters would also try to enjoy your families instead of hatching your conspiracy theories and spreading misinformation.

Joe, Ken, and RJ

The plaza is apparently 25% destination and 75% convenience. That is why it lost 75% of its business and not 100%.

You are right about the dentist, Joe! But only a few people come in for a root canal per day while thousands come in for their 6 packs of beer, slurpees, fast food at Mediterranean Oasis, or to drop off their dry cleaning on the way to and from work.

If another dry cleaner is on the way to work, I am sure they are using that other business. People are doing what is convenient and not thinking of the livelihood of the business owners. They are trying to save gas. They are also trying to make ends meet by conserving in these rough economic times....especially gasoline!

The City should have put up that wooden bridge ANON speaks of.

We just cut corners big time at the expense of the retailers. A savings of sorts to the City...but devastation to the retailers!
This is not a good area for savings! Obviosuly, since we are destroying part of our tax base which has been around for 35 long years!

These businesses are part of the foundation that allowed Naperville to be the great city it is today. They provided the funding needed for the massive growth of the 80s and 90s when there were hardly any businesses in town. When Naperville was basically a farmland! We are being thankless towards them for their tax contributions the last 35 years!

I think the worse thing the retailers could have done is shut down if they still had 25% of their business. They have a chance to survive and the city should have helped in some way.

In the Minnesota disaster there was no chance to survive and everyone packed up and left. Closing a bridge to traffic obviously has a very serious impact. Why didn't City of Naperville Engineers know this? Is there no national data available they could research?

A road with 12,800 daily cars is not a LITTLE ROAD....and it is certainaly not a small road to those retailers that depend on it. For them it is a BIG ROAD! The ONLY ROAD!

Let us have more compassion as a city and as residents!

Host Ted,

Your blog site was down most of the day today.

I am sure many posts disappeared today.

It was also down a couple of days ago.

Is there anything you can do to make sure our posts don't get deleted in the future?

Thanks...

Response:

No, we're at the mercy of technology...

Ken,

You truly are a legend in you own mind.

And a blithering, pompous, condescending, self effacing idiot in everyone else's.

Glad to hear you have a family because you sure don't have many friends. For your sake I sure hope your own kids don't think you are as much of a jerk as the people you constantly insult on Potluck.

Here's a clue. Most everyone in Naperville is better educated and smarter than you. Once you understand that maybe you will start to clean up your act.

Go ahead and whine about being banned. If it happens it will be at your own hand.

Mitch,

People are having compassion for them. I went there last week after never having any reason to go over there and do business in the 10 years I have been there and I will go back again to do more business just to throw some their direction.

What the heck more do you want? Constant complaining is going to drive people like me away because we're tired of reading about all of the woulda, coulda, shoulda. It is what it is.

I respect the Pizza place owner coming on here with an upbeat attitude. I'm going to give him some of my business too because he's got a positive attitude about the situation, trying to make the best of it and went out of his way to do what he could to make his customers understand he's still open for business. That's what a good owner does. He's not demanding forgiveness of his water and electric bill (services which are meters and you pay for what you use). He's coping, making the best out of what he has to deal with and I respect that.

Unfortunately, as you point out, these are rough economic times and people are also not "stopping off" for things like they used to either. Every business in the country has to deal with that and often has to deal with their customer's customers going out of business too. Welcome to economics. Go ask the plaza store owners at Modaff and 87th how much their businesses have dropped off the past few months even with 0 construction and road closures around them. They have empty retail space in there and I don't see the national chains gobbling it up like someone said would happen if there was empty space in a mom and pop type of plaza in Naperville.

Ken,

I have to agree with Anonymous that you believe you are a legend in your own mind. You are the same Ken that thought he should be a moderator on these threads.

You are the second most self-centered blogger on these threads after TB. That guy thinks the world revovles around him. He will take the longest blog and only respond to what was said about him and ignore the important issues.

I had to laugh at your below comment.

"I wish some of you 24/7 posters would also try to enjoy your families instead of hatching your conspiracy theories and spreading misinformation."

The only bloggers that are here 24/7 are RJ, Joe and yourself. Most bloggers blog once or twice a week or month and move on. They are confident in what they say. What they say is mostly accurate!

I think you trio and sometimes TB claims everyone is lying in the hopes that you will be believed...especially you Ken?

Diana posted numbers that she got off city blog sites. You called her a liar. Well, I have seen all her numbers verified to be accurate. Now you are saying Bolingbrook, Romeoville and Aurora are not relevant. They are our neighbors and border our town patrolling some of the same streets...how could they not be relevant! Especialy Aurora which is our size.

All you did is plagiarize your numbers Ken! You did not give credit. Only when they turned out wrong did you give the source.

I just would like to see your group of 4 tackle the problems in our police dept. with high salaries and unaffordable pensions.

I see hope in Joe. He has questioned the 20% matching funds. He is visiting the Bailey Rd plaza to try to help it survive. He seems to have changed and is showing he is a caring person.

I would like to you 3, RJ, TB, and Ken take a chapter from Joe. You guys have been here a year and a half and no one is buying what you are saying.

Time to smell the coffee and understand reality.

Anonymouse 12:13am, thanks for once again proving my point about attacking the messenger, and the cult's penchant for doing so. I have insulted no one as you just did me; if I were to be banned most of the cult members would have to be banned for actual bad behavior instead of a differing opinion.

I have found most people claiming to be better and smarter than others have low self esteem. Please try to work on that so you won't remain a bitter and angry person.

One who needs the internet to impress people and make friends is truly a sad person. What does this say about you and others who constantly worry about what others here think of you?

I feel Naperville was able to save substantial amounts of money by being able to close this bridge completely to rebuild instead of doing it in halves.

It seems it is only fair to pass some of these savings on to the retailers. Any gesture by Naperville is better than no gesture.

These are all Mom and Pop shops owned by individual proprietors and not national chains. We do so much to subsidize downtown landlords and businesses. We even build them parking decks worth 20 million dollars not including the cost of the land. We subsidize them not for short periods of time but PERMANENTLY!

These businesses only need to be subsidized partially for 3-5 months to make sure they stay viable. They had nothing to do with the decline in their sales. They were experienced and proven businesses.

While we understand the importance of bridge construction, the city most understand that businesses suffer when you stop traffic COMPLETELY in front of their stores they depend on for survival.

Naperville has a budget of 380,000,000 dollars. The retailers are just looking for some breaks such as electricity, water and real taxes. Are they being unreasonable? I don't think so!

As many said taking down a bridge is not the same as road construction that allows some lanes to be open and can be done in days or weeks. Gravel roads can be laid down to the entrances of the businesses during normal road construction!

In this case the whole bridge was taken down. No temporary road bridge was put up, apparently to save money to the city but at a great cost to the retailers. A pedestrian bridge was put up late too close to the construction site and appears to be closed more than it is open.

Someone in City Hall did not make the best decisions causing many retailers to suffer. City Hall has a duty to help...not just to tax residents and businesses so they can retire on large pensions.

I understand the city is $51 million in the hole, due to overpensionalizing of police and firemen. But the retailers did not cause that mess. City Hall caused it because they did not have the strength or knowledge to stand up to the unions. It appears the unions stripped City Officials naked and they still don't know their clothes are missing. They don't want to look in the mirror. They don't want to see themselves. They are ashamed! Understandable!

Let us get rid of this shame by showing the union who the boss is once and for all. Let us bust this union like Wal-Mart busts their unions before they can make any headway. Let us treat our cops and fireman fair so they don't need unions. But treating them fairly does not mean paying them more than lawyers. Treating them fairly does not mean they can retire in their early 50s. Treating them fairly does not mean 100k pensions for 40 or 50 years until they pass on to a better place.

We can not be focused on magazines as one blogger said on another thread that save each household one tenth of one cent per year. We need to be focused on the tens of millions being abused at City Hall for ridiculous salaries, pensions, and health insurance. It appears the real problems are within the salary structure of city oficials and many employees.

City Manager Bob Marshall is the best example of taxpayer waste. Paying him for retiring while he still works for us, is ludicrous. What kind of deal did the city council make with the unions to allow a very healthy and physically fit man to retire at age 51? Mr. Marshall should not begin receiving his pension until he truly retires at 65. Paying him at age 51 while he is gainfully employed with us for twice the amount of his pension just seems to be an example of the root cause of what caused us taxpayers to be 51 million in the red for these pension plans. Marshall is just taking advantage of the loop holes provided by the ignorance of our elected state and city officials. Maybe the loopholes were provided so they can also take advantage of them.

This is one area City Hall will not tackle by themselves. It is doubtful the city council will tackle this serious issue since they may be participating in lucrative pension plans and other benefits such as full health and life insurance.

Anyway, if the city council will not take action in the next few months, we need to elect new council members who value the community more than their own pensions!!! Enough is enough with business as usual in this town! It really has gotten sickening to read these blogs and learn about all this corruption and possible cronyism in city hall that is costing us taxpayers 20% plus in annual tax increases. It must END!

Nikki,

I've always been a caring person. It's unfortunate that you have to still level personal attacks at people you really don't know just because there is a disagreement.

If you feel the retails should be compensated then draft up a plan and present it to Council during public comment. Make sure you include how much, why and how it will be funded.

I look forward to seeing your or anyone else's official presentation of this request.

Nikki, do you also agree with anonymouse that I am self-effacing? Just wondering, as person who claims to be so much more educated than me must not know the following definition for self-effacing. Here it is, straight from dictionary.com:

self-effacing adj. Not drawing attention to oneself; modest.

So, which am I? A legend in my own mind, pompous, etc., or self-effacing? I wish you would make up your minds!

I am the person who, out of the kindness of my heart, offered to help Ted with his moderator duties as he appears to be very busy. I never said I should be a moderator, just offered a helping hand. I don't see how trying to help out a person makes me a bad person. Since you do, maybe you could explain it to me, as I am obviously not as educated as all of you cult members.

Nikki, why must you join Diana in posting lies? You accuse me of plagiarizing, and only posting a source when I was supposedly proven wrong, which, by the way, did not happen. The first time I posted that information, I attributed it to the Daily Herald and supplied a link to the article. Why do you have to tell lies to try to make me look bad? Why not just try honest debating for a change. By the way, mostly accurate is not accurate at all, as you have just shown.

Nikki, how hard is it to understand that Aurora, Bolingbrook, and Romeoville do not have the same wealth as Naperville, and therefore are not comparable to Naperville? When looking what a town spends to get good employees, you have to compare that town to towns of equal wealth. I listed several such towns, yet you want to ignore those and point to less wealthy towns to skew the numbers in your favor.

Maybe you should stop following the crowd, Nikki, and start thinking for yourself.

I appreciate the efforts of the Naperville Sun to publicize our predicament in the forefront of both its print edition and on this blog site.

As a convenience retailer my business depended on the very healthy traffic on Bailey Rd. Without that traffic, I am sure there would be no need for my 7-Eleven.

I appreciate the efforts of those residents who have taken the long detours. I appreciate the efforts of those residents who tried to cross the temporary walking bridge set up only to find it closed for safety reasons.

The majority of my business disappeared almost instantly the morning the bridge was closed. When you detour traffic, you are also detouring business. I know this was not the intention of City Bosses but unfortunately this is what happened.

No one really knows if this bridge will be done and reopened in 3 and a half months as promised or maybe scheduled is a better word. I have seen many delays on bridge construction as I can see the bridge from my storefront. It seems like this bridge could easily take 6 months to rebuild instead of the 3.5 months. I hope not!

I would like to see a temporary make-shift bridge built next to this bridge so that some of this traffic will return and help sustain my store until normality returns. I understand these bridges can be built in one day during war times along much wider and deeper rivers in some cases while bullets and bombs are flying overhead. It seems like this is a solution that can be considered in peace times and it would obviously even be easier to build a temporary bridge during calm.

If this solution can not be considered, I would like to ask City Bosses to consider a compensation plan for the retailers that have lost the majority of their businesses, such as myself. I heard many rumors before construction that this was going to happen, but unfortunately they turned out only to be rumors. This caused my delay in writing or approaching city bosses.

We did know in advance this bridge would be closed. We thought long and hard about what we can do to salvage our businesses. In the end there was really nothing substantial we could do to salvage the majority of our business. It simply went out with the bridge.

We know our customers will return one day. They liked the convenience we provided them. That is the nature of my store. I can not expect them to drive miles and miles to visit me during construction with gas being so high. I can not expect them to take these long detours and spend 15-30 minutes more of their day trying to reach me during rush hours. That is not fair to them! I was offering convenience and now I can not offer them my services which were based on convenience.

7-Elevens are not as profitable as many people believe. I had to lay off employees and now my wife and I are each working 14-15 hour days to keep our business open. Unfortunately, we need to sleep a few hours each night to function. So there is nothing more we can do to overcome this disaster.

All of us retailers tried out best! Our best was not enough to overcome this Bridge Construction.

I would like to ask the Town of Naperville to think of a compensation plan for the retailers. We have no demands! Whatever the Town can offer us we would consider very generous and be thankful!

I think it is in the interest of the town to find a way to make sure we survive this massive and extraordinary bridge construction. We all pay taxes and have paid taxes for a very long time. If we can survive this bridge construction we will remain viable taxpayers. If we don't survive we will no longer be taxpayers helping the infrastructure of the town as we have for nearly 4 decades. I hope the Town of Naperville gives us some fair compensation and keeps us viable taxpayers!

Best Regards,
Syed Hashmi,
Franchisee/ 7 Eleven
630 369 0663

Nikki –

I’ll have to respectfully disagree, but maybe you could help me with an issue or two if you want to send me a serious answer and set aside your preconceived notions.

Why doesn’t the world revolve around me? OK, seriously, you’ve obviously listened to the Napergatian talking points about me being self-centered somehow, but please explain to me why I can’t or shouldn’t respond to being insulted or misrepresented in another person’s post. I mean, can’t I respond if someone says something about me which isn’t true?

This is especially a Catch 22 since your fellow Napergatian Maryann has accused me more than once of “hiding” from her if I fail to respond. If I ignore the comment I’m a coward, but if I respond I’m self-centered? Please, juts make up your minds.

Plus I would like to think I hit on the important issues while also setting the record straight about what I have written. I guess the bottom line is, if you want to quote or paraphrase me at least get it right. Is that so much to ask?

I’m not sure what to think about your claim that I “sometimes” claim others are lying. I think everyone is entitled to an opinion, as long as they couch their opinions as such and try not to impose their opinions as somehow being fact.

I don’t know why the post Ken put up had different numbers from what Diana posted. I know the number for the NPD Diana posted was correct, but I also know Ken accurately reported what was published in the Herald. I don’t have time to find the link again, but I can only assume they are both right as: 1) Ken relied on a reliable source (The Herald) and 2) I would assume the Herald was using numbers from a past year since each dept will have different fiscal year-ends. The fact that there was such debate and name-calling over this issue is unfortunate and detracted away from the ideas being debated. Instead of both sides calling the other a liar, wouldn’t it have helped if one side took five minutes to try and figure out why there was a difference?

“I would like to you 3, RJ, TB, and Ken take a chapter from Joe. You guys have been here a year and a half and no one is buying what you are saying.” You must have me confused with someone else as I’ve only been writing since about December. And you don’t have to buy what I’m saying, all I ask is that you understand there’s another point of view to some topics.

T.B.

TB, RJ, Joe and Ken,

Maybe you guys should stop relying so much on the Daily Herald. They apparently publish without verifying. The Naperville Sun seems to go overboard to verify what it publishes at least in PRINT! Maybe you should rely on the Sun as a much more reliable source for your information.

I have seen Diana's incredible report. I had seen all her local police salary numbers verified by other bloggers and even checked a few myself.

Diana went right to the cities, towns and villages web site for her source. And certain bloggers had the audacity to call her a liar and I am disappointed that Host Ted would allow such comments to be published against a lady who went overboard to be honest. I think this is the same lady that provided us the reliable information from the Tollway Incident...some of which was published and some of which was not because the Sun could not verify. Hint...the Sun does verify! Cancel your subsciptions to the Daily Herald and go with the newspaper that verifies except for sometimes on its blog site.

The union head apparently did embellish his numbers in order to obtain raises for his sheriffs. He succeeded because the Dupage Board was to lazy to verify that he pulled a "slick one" on them with his embellished numbers.

It appears elected bodies are simply to lazy to do their homework these days. Sometimes I wonder why bloggers like Diana don't join the City Council and give CM Dick Furstenau some support. That Ameena lady is another one who did incredible work and should join the city council. These gals are willing to roll up their sleeves and get their hands dirty. The Napergate Man may have 2 candidates ready to roll if he decides to begin his endorsements again in the Naperville Sun! He may not even have to go from election forum to election forum to find candidates to endorse like in the Napergate Era. He can just find them on this blog site!

It seems to me other than CM Furstenau, no one on our council maybe except for CM Bob, is willing to get their hands dirty anymore....or maybe they are afraid of repercussions!

__________________________________________________________________

PS. Sorry to get a little off topic but I should mention that I agree with the 7-Eleven franchisee that some compensation is due these devastated retailers. As he said, the City of Naperville is endangering its own tax base by not spending some money for a temporary bridge.

Joseph,

With all due respect about the tax base, We heard that National Chains are practically waiting with baited breath to gobble up plaza space like this (which will provide a replacement tax base) and now we hear that if the store closes the city will lose the tax base (which assumes it will sit empty since no tax income means no sales or occupancy).

You see it as the latter (vacancy) and not the previously claimed way (losing a Mom and Pop shop) ?

I'm just trying to understand exactly where your point of view is on the compensation with respect to the Mom and Pop versus National Chain argument tossed out earlier.

I do sympathize with the plight of the 7-Eleven franchisee after he eloquently explained his situation.

I agree with him that no amount of planning on his part could have saved all the business he lost. He is a convenience store to that healthy traffic he described on Bailey Rd.

The city in essense as someone mentioned before me shut his electricity and water and told him to continue to operate like nothing happened.

Is he suppose to run underground electricial cables for electricity and steel pipes to bring his own water to his store so he can make slurpees and coffee?

A business owner can only do so much. He is not responsible for infrastructure. The city is responsiblle for infrastructure. This bridge was INFRASTRUCTURE. The city took it down and has to take responsibility for the devastation it caused to the nearby retailers who lost that 12,800 traffic count.

The business owners pay heavy taxes for this infrastucture to be up and running. If it is down they should not have to pay taxes while it is down and their businesses are suffering in this way.

The city owes compensation in this case if it wants to be fair and earn the respect of taxpayers and businessowners in this town!

TB,

I have to agree with those who posted and stated you are obsessed with yourself. Nikki wrote 2 long letters and mentioned you in passing. I wish she did not!

That is all it takes to get you to ramble letter after letter about yourself.

You saw the nice 7-Eleven franschisee letter. It made some great points. He did not attack anyone. Instead of commenting on his letter and sticking with the debate, you totally ignore his letter and plight and focus on TB. Why! What is it with you? Other posters post and are complemented or criticised and accept it? They don't respond with barages against their criticism.

Example is Diana! She was called a liar! She could care less because apparently she knew she told the truth and the truth would come out on its own. She did not have to defend herself against the likes of Ken. Why give him credibility by responding to him? Why acknowledge him? She did not lower herself to his level. She did not have to. She did not feel a need to defend the truth. Ken felt a need to defend the numerous lies and misinformation he posted at least 20 times. Did it do him any good? Blogger after blogger proved him incompetent.

If you know what you say is all accurate, why do you have to constantly defend every word you say and attack anyone who challenges you. As Joe said, if one constantly has to defend what he says or say he is not someone, maybe there is an issue of sorts to be reckoned with.

Have confidence in what you say! If it is true it will survive the test of the bloggers. If it is false it will fail. As you can see in Ken's case, everything he said was exposed as not factual, not true, and in many cases libelous and slanderous.

If you want to make Ken your idol go ahead and make him your idol, TB. You really lowered yourself to his level on this blog site. You dumped yourself in the ditch with him! Get out of it and stop whining about yourself and writing about yourself. This blog site is not about CRY BABY TB. It is about the topics, Host Ted, is posting.

Read this thread introduction again. It is about the retailers that are suffering on Bailey Rd. Did you see the word TB anywhere in the introdcution? I did not! Case closed!

Let us move this bridge along much faster.

It is obvious that residents and retailers are suffering and being impacted more than expected...

Let us move faster, faster and even faster....

Host Ted,

Thanks for making us aware of this situation. I did go visit the area one day on my way home because I was curious.

There was almost no traffic on Bailey and Oxford heading north also did not have any traffic of significance..I think the blogger that said it was 10 times as busy was fabricating. Why would a N-S street replace traffic on an E-W street? Riders travelling E-W need another E-W street for their detour not a residential N-S street that pretty much dead ends a few block North when it runs into the separation median on 75th St.

It does not seem retailers outside the downtown area are treated equal to retailers in downtown. We build 5 parking decks for retailer downtown at a taxpayer expense of 100 million almost all from the residential taxpayers.

We can't even build these retailers a make shift wooden bridge for the duration of this project for 50 or 100k to scale a one foot river. My Gosh!

Are these businesses, taxpayers? From what I read they are not only taxpayers but very long term taxpayers.

Maybe we do need wards in town so someone on the council could protect their interests. I have not see one single council member express the slightest concern about these 10 retailers. Why? Is this not also NAPERVILLE?

Mr. Ted,

How could anyone not be sympathetic to these retailers. The city of Naperville did them an INJUSTICE...a BIG INJUSTICE!

Imagine closing Ogden Ave both ways! Imagine the outcry from residents and retailers if that happened. It would never happen.

I think the city thought it could get away with this bridge construction the cheap way because there were only 10 retailers involved. Yes, there are only 10 retailers involved but they are human beings that have families and need to support their families.

I can not believe the city is disregarding their plight. They are treated like chopped liver. If they were in the downtown area, I guarantee you they would have built each retailer a private bridge.

It just reminds me how they put a dozen cops to watch 6 nightclubs downtown at taxpayer expense. But they won't put even one cop to watch 3 night clubs in a NW Plaza bordering Aurora.

Now we have gunfire reported there probably from those Aurora gangbangers. Not a rumor but reported in prestigious Naperville Sun. The blog site reports baseball bat incidents in or near that plaza. Do these businesses not pay taxes? Where is there protection from gang bangers?

I guess only downtown retailers get protection. Do all our city council members live downtown? Is that why they give downtown the kitchen sink if they want it?

I am all for what ANONYMOUS and HOST TED have been advocating....alderman from each district instead of at-large so we can get downtown Naperville off the bottle and into the real world! Time for DOWNTOWN to carry its own weight. I am tired of 20% annual tax increases to subsidize the wealthy downtown landlords who pay for NOTHING! Not even their garbage pick-up or sweeping the sidewalks in front of their pristine buildings. All done by the city at taxpayer expense!

Does anyone one know if they are even sent REAL ESTATE TAX BILLS like the rest of us? Or are they exempt from being on the CITY TAX ROLLS because they fund the city council members at election time? What is going on here? We need some serious investigative reporting to uncover this mess in our town?

Joe,

I think Joseph was looking at it from a humane standpoint. He was thinking of the individual business owners.

He never said anything about national chains gobbling up space in the plaza. That was the opinion of one individual blogger. It was his opinion and he may be right or wrong.

That is not the issue here, Joe!

The issue is that the existing retailers invested their life savings into their businesses and everything should be done to save them!

Do you agree?

Anne,

I think the parties with an interest in the business should do everything to save them, yes. That includes the owners, the local residents and those that want to see the place remain there.

Where I disagree is that somehow the city has an obligation to catch a failing business regardless of how it fails. I seriously doubt anyone here would be calling for the city to step in and save Jimmy's bar and grill if Washington, Chicago, and Jackson were under construction and their business subsequently took a hit. It unfortunately is what it is. The sooner that bridge gets back opened, the better off everyone will be. When it gets done and 75th street then gets diverted, Bailey will see an INCREASE in traffic from the detours. Business will be UP. Since it's calculated that some percentage of cars 'drop in' due to convenience, when the number of cars go up, so will their business. The door will swing the other direction at that time and the city will not ask for any 'payment' from them for diverting cars that would otherwise never drive by their business (on 75th street) and delivering them to their front door (via the detours).

Advertise, run specials, do what you have to do to make it worth it to the customers to go there in the meantime.

Niemi, you just spent a whole lengthy post ranting mostly at T.B. and at me. Now both of us are just supposed to ignore it? To ignore your ranting and raving, not to mention your libel against me.

Speaking of your libelous comments, when anything, much less everything, I have ever posted been proven "not factual, not true, and in many cases libelous and slanderous"? First of all, slander is the spoken word, which does not happen here. Secondly, I have posted links to my sources, and even emailed the sheriff in hopes of finding out why there are discrepancies between his numbers and different city's websites. Unlike the cult members, I try to find factual information, instead of relying on a friend that breaks privacy laws like Diana did, and still getting the wrong information. By the way, who called Diana a liar?

You, Niemi, are the typical keyboard rambo. You would not dare to speak to me or anyone else the way you do when you cower behind your keyboard. Next time try posting on any subject instead of using the usual attack mode of the cult members.

RJ, Ken, Joe and TB,

You guys all sound like broken records that can not even be rewinded. I would rather listen to a parrot than you guys.

You guys have appointed yourselves moderators on Ted's Threads commenting on every blog.

It really does get ridiculous when 4 boys blog more than everyone else combined on all these threads.

And sadly despite your large amounts of blogs and constant repeating of yourselves no one seems to be buying into your opinions. It seems no one respects anything you say. I thought you had a 5th person, but I guess he must have gotten fed up with you guys and finally left.

It is so much nicer to read something new like from that 7-Eleven franchisee than to keep reading the same old things from you guys packaged differently.

Host Ted should limit any one person to 3 or 4 comments per week. That way we can have more attention here focused on the important posts without having the blog site hogged by 4 individuals more concerned about promoting their alter egos than the issues Host Ted suggests on each thread.

Hey guys! These threads are not about your personal egos. It is about issues that concern residents and taxpayers. Let us start covering the issues instead of making fools of yourselves day and night by covering yourselves! Please, you are not the issue or item of concern! If you want to be the issue of concern please try space.com or match.com. On those sites the world will revolve around you guys...at least in your minds!

By Anne on June 18, 2008 6:28 AM

Anne,

Try reading their points once, and any good counter points they may surface.

Ignore the rest of their posts if you don't like them or they are redundant and verbose. Or they are verbose and redundant, or repeat and and are lengthy, or are too long and and sound the same, or sound like a broken record, sound oddly familiar, remind you of something you just read..........

I would hate for Host Ted to limit the only free speech available in Naperville.

Anne,

I make a post disagreeing with your assessment of compensating retailers and tell you why and your followup is some BS about egos and a request to the moderator to limit posts?

You just removed yourself from the conversation with that post because you've just shown you have nothing to actually contribute to the topic of discussion at hand.

How about actually tackling what I pointed out like the increase in traffic they will see from their 'normal bailey traffic' when 75th street bridge closes and diverts A LOT of cars to their doorstep.

Do you feel they owe the city money back because in this case a bridge closing will HELP THEM... ? Do you feel Jimmy's should be compensated if Jackson, Washington and Chicago Ave were under construction and they said their business took a hit as a result? Should they be compensated too or just small mom and pop shops in places other than downtown?

I just want to add my voice to all those who spoke positively about the retailers.

What happened is not of their doing?

It is pure speculation that the Bailey Rd retailers will get a boom when 75th St.is done. The 75th ST. according to the County Web Site will only be partially shut down and be able to accomodate much of its traffic but much slower.

Bailey Rd. between Naper Blvd and Washington had much more than the 12,800 vehicles per day that the rest of the road had. That part of the road was at peak capacity and really can't take any more traffic unless the stop signs were converted to stop lights.

A 2 way residential street with this kind of traffic is just highly unusual. Most residential streets have a few thousand even if they are considered busy. That is probably why the plaza was built there in the first place! The traffic was GREAT!

Let us not deny them compensation based on specualtion. We know they lost 75% of their business. I seriously doubt there businesses will see an increase of 75%. And even if it did, the capacity is not there.

Little Italian for example was at peak capacity on Friday and Saturday before the bridge went down. Now their restaurant looks very empty when you drive by. At rare times when I called for a pizza before the bridge went down, they had to shut their phone lines down due to being at capacity or overload. Thus they would never be able to recoup what they lost unless they could find a way to perform at 1.75% capacity.

Little Italian is not a car manufacturer that can work the graveyard shift to handle extra capacity. People want their pizzas between 4pm to 9pm. No one orders a pizza at 3am in the morning.

Common Joe, let us be reasonable with our logic and give them fair compensation. They do pay taxes...all we are doing is refunding some of the taxes they pay for down time they experienced.

If Jimmy's was closed for 6 months due to road contruction, of course they should be compensated. We want all retailers to be treated fairly and well.

We don't want downtown landlords exempt from paying taxes due to TIF districting for 20 years. I wonder if Councilman Bob can tell us if that Promenade Building is exempt from real estate taxes for 20 years. I suspect it is. Combine that with no parking for the building since taxpayers are building them a garage literally next door and the subsidizing gets ever more TRANSPARENT.

This landlord MAY be reaping 50 dollars a square foot in rent and paying no taxes due to TIF designated districts in downtown Naperville. I hope someone can check this one out and get back to us. And who would have given this this TIF status....you guessed it....our City Council!

Could you tell us Councilman Bob if the Promenade Building and the Barnes and Noble Building are TIF buildings that don't pay taxes? They are owned by a very wealthy establishment couple. If they don't pay taxes as is rumored due to this TIF, that would really be a TRAVESTY OF JUSTICE for all taxpayers in town.

Could you check this one out, Host Ted? If those 2 beautiful and magnificent buildings are on TIF status for 20 years, you got your answers as to how badly downtown Naperville is SUBSIDIZED. Much worse than ever imaginable!

If they want parking decks...they need to get on the TAX ROLLS if they are not! Let us all investigate!

The picture of why we are experiencing annual 20% real estate tax increases is becoming gradually ever so clear!

Joe,

In general commercial and industrial pay more taxes then they use (except downtown), so does it not make sense to keep the businesses viable to pay for our schools etc?

If the current assessed value of the shopping center is something approaching zero, should their quarterly tax bill reflect the new reality? Would one or two quarters at a reduced rate be unreasonable?

It would be interesting to understand exactly why replacing two lanes of the bridge at a time would take four times as long?

Don't the same cranes remove the bridge and put the new one back? Was there specialized equipment for removing the bridge and specialized equipment for putting it back? Same for the workers?

There are a bunch of cement companies in the area, so this is not scarce.

There is plenty of room to have had all of the materials delivered at once and used when needed, not JIT, but is that critical?

Did the bridge design prohibit doing two lanes at a time? Does the replacement?

Any answers out there?

Bubo,

Bailey East of Modaff and Downtown do not pay for my schools (204).

Doing anything temporary is always an 'an additional' on top of the actual project.

If they are removing EVERYTHING about the old bridge including original structural support then they probably had to restart from scratch which means out with the old, in with the new. Trying to do something like that in halves will take much more time than just doing it all at once and being done with it.

Maryann,

I would bet that they will see an uptick in business when 75th street bridge construction begins. People always look for an offshoot or alternate route to avoid the hassle and will cut down residential streets. Take a look at River Road or Mill Street sometime during the evening commute.

The complaint was that cars are not driving by the plaza and since it's a 'convenience' plaza it's lifeline is the traffic. When the traffic increases (we can agree to disagree on the percentage, but it will be more than 0 cars increase) when 75th street bridge begins construction, they will see an increase in patronage by virtue of the fact that that they will be more 'convenient' to more people who will go by it.

Has anyone presented this compensation idea to city council yet?
If so, when and what did they say?

Maryann wrote:

"We don't want downtown landlords exempt from paying taxes due to TIF districting for 20 years. I wonder if Councilman Bob can tell us if that Promenade Building is exempt from real estate taxes for 20 years. I suspect it is."

I could be wrong about this, but my understanding of TIF is that it is NOT a reduction in taxes. Rather, in a TIF district, the increased tax revenue that arises from improvements to properties in the district are used to finance infrastructure improvements in the district. So the businesses in a TIF pay DO pay "market-rate" taxes based on their presumably higher property values, but the incremental portion of the taxes that they pay that is due to their increased property values is funneled into city-financed improvements that benefit the businesses.

I guess I shouldn't post this close to dinner-time if I'm going to misspell my own nom de plume, LOL! Time to head over to Little Italian....

John,

You spelled your name wrong. You may want to make a correction.

I would like to hear more about how this TIF exemption works.

I think it is much more complicated than you describe and read about tax abatements for 20 years to get rid of run down properties.

I guess those old homes they replaced would be considered run down properties.

Thus on a technicality these huge buildings may not be on the tax roll. I am not sure. We may need some help from CM Bob or one of Ted's "paid journalists."

Thanks for the input.

Niemi –

OK, I get it now. Attacks from your side should be ignored. Never mind if they’ve hurled insults my way for no reason or completely misrepresented what I have previously written. Contrary opinions just aren’t welcome, hence the call for censorship.

As for Diana, I never called her a liar and I don’t know who did (if anyone). My point about the Diana-Ken issue was not to take sides. I didn’t, by the way, but you read into my post that I did just because I happened to say they were both right. My point was simply to lament the lack of common courtesy on these threads. Everyone jumped into this without bothering to look at the underling data. Ken relied on an article from a reputable source—the Herald. Or are you saying the Herald can’t be trusted? Diana also relied on reputable sources. Instead of taking a look at why the numbers were different, everyone went into a tizzy and the discussion deteriorated from there. That’s all I was getting at.

As for the post by the 7-11 owner, I think it was nice. But I don’t have a good answer for him. As I previously touched on, his store is a convenience one where the other stores are more “destination spots”. The florist and the pizza place can try to increase deliveries to make up for the lost foot traffic. The Indian store can also deliver, and I also suggested getting his name out and making sales at the many city fests. Maybe these places can increase advertising and offer free delivery or something. My point was there are things some of the stores could do to help themselves out. The 7-11, I’m not so sure about.

However, my opinion is to vote against city compensation for instances such as this. I think the city should do what they can to get the work done fast, but compensation is a slippery slope I don’t think we could afford. City streets and infrastructure are constantly being worked on and replaced. Who gets compensated and who doesn’t? Who decides? I don’t see it as a workable system and I doubt you would want someone from the city deciding who gets free money. That’s a recipe for corruption.

T.B.

Here is how Wikipedia described TIF's:

"TIF is a tool to use future gains in taxes to finance the current improvements that will create those gains. When a public project such as a road, school, or hazardous waste cleanup is carried out, there is an increase in the value of surrounding real estate, and often new investment (new or rehabilitated buildings, for example). This increased site value and investment creates more taxable property, which increases tax revenues. The increased tax revenues are the "tax increment." Tax Increment Financing dedicates that increased revenue to finance debt issued to pay for the project. TIF is designed to channel funding toward improvements in distressed or underdeveloped areas where development would not otherwise occur. TIF creates funding for public projects that may otherwise be unaffordable to localities."

Everyone jumped into this without bothering to look at the underling data. Ken relied on an article from a reputable source—the Herald. Or are you saying the Herald can’t be trusted?

------------------------------------------------------------------

TB,

If the Daily Herald published all those innaccurate police salary numbers, I would say, yes it can't be trusted.

Apparently the reporter for the Dailey Hearald, did a 10 minute job like Ken, and we got a 10 minute job that could not stand the test of a Naperville Sun Citizen Journalist...lol....!

Diana admitted spending many hours working on her numbers and going to the direct city sites both locally and nationally. No one has been able to challenge even one of her numbers.

I am a little surprised you decided to be neutral on the Diana-Ken dispute. I am sure you knew Ken posted the wrong number for the cities of Naperville and Aurora which we all seem to know from so much discussion.

It appears the police union realized that neither the Daily Herald or the Board of Trustees of Dupage would question those numbers and literally pulled them out of a hat. It worked and they got the Sherriffs a 7000 dollar raise by whining all other police were making more money than they were...it was not true but it worked. They were actually above the National Average by quite a few thousand.

Some of those high salaries of NW suburbs that Ken posted came from that same report. How could they be trusted? I bet they were pulled out of hat too.

Diana spend 8 hours seaching cities web sites throughout the country. She found some in California that were higher than Naperville but that was it. I believe many in California such as San Diego were substantially less than Naperville and she posted them.

Illinois had the third highest police salaries in the country and Naperville either led in starting salary and/or average salary. Dupage was 41k in line with Bolingbrook, Romeoville and Aurora. However when they saw what Naperville Cops were making they got jealous and wanted more. If they had done their homework, they could have told the Dupage Board that Naperville Cops made nearly 60k but instead made up a number of 52k for bargaining purposes feeling comfortable it was more than what a Naperville cop made as a starting salary. How wrong they were in their estimate or gut feeling of what a Naperville cop starts at!

I guess they never imagined a Naperville Cop would be making near 60k or more than an attorney and were happy to use the 52k number. If they bothered to do their homework like Diana, they could have told the Dupage Board that Naperville Cops make almost 60k, and they may have gotten a raise from at least 41k to 50k instead of just 48k.

I guess the Dupage Police Union blew it by not doing their homework. You never know if they would have discovered Naperville Cops make nearly 60k, the Dupage Board may have matched the 60k and they would be 19k richer instead of only 7k richer then before the contract negotiations.

It pays to do your homework if you want to milk and bilk the taxpayers.

But I think the point that is being missed here, is that every police department is getting a raise based on other police depts and it is really an endless cycle. He got more...I want more! The police make out...but the taxpayer gets screwed.

It is odd how the state chose to regulate just about everything but the salaries. Naperville found the loophole to get their police high pensions...give them an astronimical salary and they will have a great pension. (I guess Naperville can switch to self-managed pensions and limit themselves to 10% matching funds but they have opted not to, enriching the police further at taxpayer expense. In the current system the police pension manager can gamble all their money in the stock market, lose it all, and you guessed it, we the taxpayers REPLINSISH IT! Can anyone believe this? It sounds like a QUICKSAND contract we got into with the police union....wake up Krause and Senger...do something....help Furstenau and CM BOB!)

The only thing they forget to factor is this all cost money. Now we are $50.5 million in the hole despite contributing 21.16% and our city officials and elected council members are all in hiding...except Councilman Bob who has decided to give us transpareny and tell us the TRUTH.

I hope you all vote for CM Bob which is really a vote for TRANSPARECNY. He has the courage to tell it as it is. He reminds me of Walter Cronkite of CBS news. He just told it as it was and never spinned anything.

I say we ought to consider CM BOB for City Manager. At least the man is honest and talks STRAIGHT!!! And he CARES!!! And I believe he will roll his sleeves and reduce TAXES!!!

__________________________________________________________________

By the way TB, I think it was very proper for you to disclose that your brother is a FIREMAN. Obviously, you have a conflict of interest and this explains why to many of us you did not make sense for so long. Now you make sense...you are watching out for your brother. I don't blame you but the majority of us also have to watch our wallets in this terrible economy. We just can not pay City Police and Firemen more than $24,000 the national average and give them benefits that are really unheard of not only nationally but in the entire world.

It would be nice if Ken, RJ and Joe came clean and joined you. Joe listens to the police blogger 24/7. He has some affiliation with police. No one listens to police radio and chases ambulances all day for no reason. We know he is not a reporter! What is he? Who is Joe?

TIF is designed to channel funding toward improvements in distressed or underdeveloped areas where development would not otherwise occur.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. John Q. Public

I can not see how downtown Naperville can be considered "distressed." Land is going for millions of dollars an acre. Rents are as high as 40 to 50 bucks per square foot. Bars are booming with lines around buildings.

I guess politicians can do anything....even make downtown Naperville distressed so all the real estate taxes from new developments stays there to further subsidize the downtown instead of being put in the tax pool to benefit all areas of Naperville equally.

Don't be fooled, Mr. John Q. Public.

Something fishy is going on to enrich the downtown landlords.

They call it TIF...huh...they don't build parking garages for their enormous buildings...but their taxes go towards building the garages since they are INFRASTRUCTURE.

Normally landlords of large downtown buildings have to build their own parking decks...and even pay 2% real estate tax on the cost of the parking deck they built to the general tax pool.

You can call it what you want, Mr. John Q. Public. I am going to call it another SCAM! A SCAM on the taxpayers to benefit the rich establishment landlords downtown some of who are worth over a hundred million dollars. That's right!!!

JQP -

So as I read it, the taxes stay the same (not exempt) and any increase in tax revenue (based on the improvement) is used by the city for needed upgrades caused by the improvement. Is this right?

Doesn't a TIF help with financing in some way. too?

TB

T.B.,

I think it is your position that cops and firemen are so important that this is not an area you like to cut any excess fat.

I would like to remind you if you want to pay them whatever they want you need to have a very healthy business tax base. Right now the Maplebrook Plaza on Bailey Rd. is suffering and any business could go out of business. You should be willing to compensate those who contribute to these high police and fire salaries and pensions when they are in distress for an extraordinary occurrence!

They are the pipelines that produces the oil that keeps these city departments going. Without this pipeline that feeds these insane salaries and pensions, those salaries and pensions are not affordable.

We are 51.5 million in the hole without these 10 businesses being down. If they go down we may be 52 million in the hole. Wasn't it you who said he believes in saving everywhere except when it concerns safety. Aren't we saving here by saving buinesses who pay taxes?

I think these businesses were not treated fairly. Cost savings on the bridge construction were made at their expense. A 2.5 million bridge put over Rt.59 was done in a way where it only closed Rt. 59 for a few hours. And yet there were complaints for those few hours. They worked the graveyard shift from 11pm to 9am to get that bridge up in one evening!

At Bailey the bridge also cost exactly 2.5 million dollars but it is going to take a minimum of 3.5 months to build under perfect weather conditions....we have not had these perfect conditions so it will take much longer. No one was working the afternoon shift let alone the night shift. Weekend working only started after Mr. Jim Bartlett of Bloom Above made a stink and got front page coverage in the Naperville Sun.

It just seems the city made a calcualted decison that these 10 businesses are not as important as the businesses on Rt. 59. They could take the heat from the devastation to these business. But they obviously could not take the heat from the devastation to the Rt 59 businesses so they found a way to build that bridge in a way to keep the road open.

It does not seem like a Pedestrian Bridge over Rt 59 should cost as much as a complete concrete bridge over a river. Unless one was done expensively to keep the road open and one was done cheaply by closing the road completely.

I suspect the City of Naperville saved 2.5 million dollars by doing it the way they are doing it by closing the road completely. Some of this money should be passed on to the retailers who suffered immensely because the City of Naperville chose to do it in a way where the retailers would take the HIT instead of the City of Naperville.

This is not where we as a City should be saving money. Police OT at 3.15 million cost more than the whole bridge. We should be saving money there. Annual police and firemen payments probably exceed $7.5 million. We should be looking to save some money there. One hundred retired Naperville cops each collecting 75k in annual pension is $7.5 million. That is 3 times the cost of the bridge. One hundred retired firemen each collecting 75k in pension is another $7.5 million. That is also 3 times the cost of the bridge.

Money being used for 6 bike cops to ride around in downtown Naperville on a deserted Monday evening should be used for construction workers to work a second shift on the bridge to move it along quicker. We are just giving these cops "pretend work" when schools are out! Why not have them knock out that $3.15 million in OT by resting or relieving officers who have $49,800 in accumalted OT for the year! Nothing makes sense to me. Come in CM Bob and shed some light! Again what happened to CM Krause and CW Senger. I thought they were endorsed by the Napergate Man because they cared about this town and the taxpayers! Could he have been this wrong? Did the estbalishment buy them by offering them lucrative pensions? What happened? I don't hear their voices ANYWHERE! They are NON-EXISTENT! Just collecting salary, pensions health benefits and doing nothing like the rest of the council members except for CM Fursteanau and CM Bob!

It just seems the City of Naperville has all its priorities all mixed up not some of the time but all of the time.

I suspect the majority our city council members have lost interest in running this town. I watched one council meeting 6 months ago and they were out in either 48 minute or 58 minutes. They pretty much rubber stamped or tabled everything and went home. How can you run a city like Naperville in less than 58 minutes for a 2 week period? Well, you can't and we are all witnessing the devastation!

At least the city council should tell the City Manager that we are implementing a 5% cap on tax increases whether we are home rule or not! If you can NOT stay within 5%, please submit your RESIGNATION and live on your 85k pension! You will be fine without us and we will be fine without you!

Now let us fnd someone to get the job done. Let us not allow the City Manager to set up a committee or hire a firm that recommends him. The bottom line is our annual taxes went up under his leadership and that of his mentor Burchard 20%. That should be enough for the City Council to call for his resignation. No balloon payments or loan cancellations for efforts that resulted in 20% increase in taxes....please!!!

It makes him one of the worse if not the worse manager of any city in the State of Illinois. No other city had tax increases of 20% in one year. Most of the cities are limited by law to 5% tax increase rain or shine! How can they do it? Why can't we do it? What is wrong with our City Council?

Marshall,

I have a radio shack Pro-92 trunking handheld scanner. I've been 'scanning' since the mid 1970's when my father gave me a Radio Shack 6 band radio for my birthday (am/fw, sw, vhf-hi, vhf-lo and uhf). My hobbies and interests also extend into amateur radio communications as well.

One does not have to have any affiliation with law enforcement to have it as a hobby.

By yourself one. They are only a couple hundred bucks and I'll program it for you.

Marshall, I won't argue with you about the wisdom or appropriateness of Naperville's use of TIF's. That's a subject for another day. I only posted what I did to shed some light on what exactly a TIF is. I am FAR from an expert on the subject, though, and don't really know much more about it than can be gleaned from Wikipedia.

Here is the link if you want to read more of what Wikipedia has to say on the subject:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Increment_Financing

"So as I read it, the taxes stay the same (not exempt) and any increase in tax revenue (based on the improvement) is used by the city for needed upgrades caused by the improvement. Is this right?

Doesn't a TIF help with financing in some way. too?"

T.B.,

I think your interpretation is correct. As to whether TIF's help with financing, I don't know. If the law allows, I suppose a "creative" local government could give TIF funds directly to a developer in lieu of spending the money on infrastructure. If Councilman Bob is reading this, maybe he could give us an answer.

C.B.?

-JQP

I did visit the Mediterranean Oasis to buy my monthly hummous yesterday. I think that is the only store that makes fresh hummous daily right on the premises.

The store was rather empty compared to the last time I visited when the bridge was still functional. You could say from 15 customers down to 3.

The parking lost was almost empty except for a few cars.

Anyway the impact was obvious to me and rather quickly.

I guess I have never seen an entire street shut down in this way to both sides of the traffic.

In Minnesota it was a disaster that could not be avoided. I bet those retailers got some kind of compensation from the city, state or their insurance companies.

Here we have no disaster just a city that wanted to get the bridge done fast for less expense. It just seems like our City Bosses don't know when to save money and when not to save money.

Here is an example where we needed to spend some extra money for a temporary bridge considering this may drag up to 6 months. The Feds may have even paid 75% of the cost of this temporary bridge since they do particpate in all bridge construction costs. It would not have cost the city much money yet it was not done.

Twenty million for a libary deck we don't need plus the land to boot for the deck is no problem. But a 100k temporary bridge is a BIG PROBLEM. I guess it is not DOWNTOWN where all the city bosses must live.

Anyone who owns a business understands losing 75% of your retail business has a severe impact on your bottom line...very severe.

Sometimes a business needs 75% of its gross proceeds to just BREAKEVEN. The last 25% after the BREAKEVEN POINT provides the gross profit.

Here we have a situation where these businesses are operating 50% below the BREAKEVEN POINT. Thus they are not just losing money they are putting personal money into their business assuming they have large savings...tons of it in their businesses to keep them open.

I find it quite disturbing that our City Bosses did not offer some compensation especially since no temporary bridge was set up!

Just my thoughts! Back to the daily grind!

Here is a link to some additional information about TIFs and the rules for TIFs in Illinois:

http://www.illinois-tif.com/about_TIF.asp

So, T.B., it looks like the answer to your question is that TIF funds CAN be used for financing, among many other allowable uses.

Marshall,

Nice posts!

I can't believe all the different schemes our City Masters have up their sleeves. It is phenomenal. I guess if there is way, to skim and scheme, they will do it.

I am not sure I undertand what you and John Q. Public are saying about this TIF stuff. It is very confusing to me.

But it does sound like a sheme to keep downtown real estate taxes downtown.

Why can't the Bailey Rd Retailers hold onto their taxes and devote them to a temporary bridge that would benefit them. Why do they have to put their taxes in the larger pool while downtown landlords only put them in the DOWNTOWN pool? This is what I understand TIF is doing. Am I wrong Mr. Marshall and Mr. Public?

As Host Ted said, we need aldermen from various districts in town. It is so easy to see how the Bailey Rd. Retailers are given the shaft.

Can anyone see the City of Naperville closing downtown businesses for 4-6 months because of road contruction. It would never happen. They did construction in front of City Hall one lane at a time. Not 2 lanes at once.

Of course it cost more to do it that way. But since it was for City Hall where they reside, it is OK to spend the extra money to do it in halves.

For the Bailey Rd. Retailers, it is not OK to spend the extra money to do it in HALVES! Why?

Joe,

I am glad to see your support for the police and fire depts. weakening substantially after you found out they were getting 20% in matching funds from the taxpayers.

I recall reading somewhere your company only gave you 5 or 5.5% in matching funds. That really is pretty much the maximum in the corporate world these days especially after the stock market bubble collapse of the early 2000s!

I am glad you agree with most of us that giving City Employees whether related to safety or whatever 20% plus in matching funds is unconsionable.

I mean do the people in City Hall think money grows on the trees behind their building because the river gives them a nice supply of water year round!

This $50 million deficit or shortfall in pensions for only 400 employees is astonishing. It is incomprehensible! No wonder are taxes are going up like this.

I guess I was lucky. My city of Naperville taxes only went up 19.73% this year. That is less than most! But still that is almost 4 times the amount that non-home rule municipalities are allowed.

I can't believe pro-tem City Manager Marshall is even being considered for City Manager. He is like an electrician who was called to fix a leaky toilet. He is the wrong person for the job.

Mr. Marshall, with all due respect is a policeman who has no clue how to manage a city the size of Naperville. We need an experienced manager with 10-20 years experience turning a town around to lead us.

We are heading down the river and we need to be turned around before we drown!!!

Host Ted,

Thanks for bringing this crises to our attention. I do not live in the area so had no clue what was going on until I read this thread this afternoon.

I guess the first question that comes to mind is why not do it in halves since the City Engineer said it is possible.

Maybe halves means the retailers have a majority of their business and can survie. Even if majority only means 55%.

But anyone with common sense knows when you cut nearly 13,000 vehicles from travelling in front of a plaza, it is the same as choking another person around the neck. He can hang in there but not for too long before he succumbs.

Did the City of Naperville want these businesses to fail so they could condemn the property and build a park on the site? What were their ulterior goals? There has to be a hidden motive to operate in this fashion.

I think construction should be halted immediately and only continued when the road can be done in halves with one lane open at all times. One lane is devastating enough to these businesses.

What were the city planners thinking would happen when they closed all traffic in all directions for this long of a period ot time?

I would like to hear what they were thinking?

I commend these retailers who stepped forward with their full names on this thread. I beleive Bloom Above, Mediterranean Oasis, Little Italian and 7-Eleven are some of the retailers that came forward and used their real full names. Some even gave out phone numbers.

Many times it is said this is not the real world on these threads.

But having real names with real locations and people hurting is the real world and not the fanstasy or virtual world. The city of Naperville should reach out to these real business owners who may also be residents in town.

They are basically calling for help. The city knows how to reach them. No one is impostering them! Something should be done to help them. We can not simply ignore them and say their loss of business is NONE OF OUR BUSINESS!

By T.B. on June 19, 2008 8:08 AM

However, my opinion is to vote against city compensation for instances such as this. I think the city should do what they can to get the work done fast, but compensation is a slippery slope I don’t think we could afford. City streets and infrastructure are constantly being worked on and replaced. Who gets compensated and who doesn’t? Who decides? I don’t see it as a workable system and I doubt you would want someone from the city deciding who gets free money. That’s a recipe for corruption.

*******************************************************************

TB,
It seems you have not been over to the site in question. This is not streets being worked on. It is not paving! It is not seal coating!

This is taking down an entire bridge and closing down one of the busiest roads in Naperville both ways.

How often does this happen? This is no slippery slope! This a unique situation.

I think we should compensate retailers in any case in which the road is closed both ways for 3 months or more. No retailer should be expected to handle this kind of burden without help.'

It is not like they sell bridge insurance to retailers.

I don't agree with you TB that only the 7-Eleven was a convenience retailer. I have no doubt the liquor store is also a convenience retailer. The Mediterranean Oasis which is a Middle Eastern and not Indian store is also greatly convenience. Dry cleaning is greatly convenience. Most dry cleaners in Naperville are owned by Koreans who do quality work. You are going to the one on your way to and from work....not the one in the desert. And flower shops in convenience centers depend on men and boys buying flowers for their wives and girl friends on their way home from work once in a while.

I think TB you are wrong in your thoughts of not wanting to give these retailers compensation. Do you expect them to pay taxes when their businesses were halted to near ZERO?

These businesses lost much of their value when the bridge went down!
They should not be required to pay real estate taxes when they have 0 value. A shopping center with no street and no traffic has ZERO VALUE! Try to compehend....don't be like Ken!

I agree with most of what you said.

What makes this closing unique and different is the following.

1. Both lanes were closed to traffic at the same time and will be for a very elongated time...months!

2. Pedestrian traffic was closed for a week until a temporary bridge was built and its seems shuts down most of the time for safety since it was built too close to the construction zone.

3.This is a convenience plaza with mostly convenience tenants. It is not a destination plaza where consumers will go out of the way to get something they can't get anywhere else.

4.Once the traffic was halted, the convenience element of the plaza disappeared.

5.I don't see how the City of Naperville expects these businesses to pay electricity, water and real estate taxes after the city cut them off from their source of income.

6. The city chose to close the bridge down completely to get the job done quicker and cheaper.

7. The savings or at least some of the savings resulting from a COMPLETE SHUTDOWN as opposed to a PARTIAL SHUTDOWN should be passed on to the businesses.

8. As many said before me: Why do we have 6 bike cops riding in downtown Naperville on a Monday night when it is almost deserted. Why not use this money for 6 construction employees to work on the bridge in the afternoon so we can get this bridge rebuilt quicker?

9. The fact these businesses have contributed to the tax base of Naperville for nearly 4 decades in a positive way should also weigh in heavily for their compensation. Unlike downtown businesses, they are not a tax drain on our tax pool.

10. Finally with taxes rising over 20% for most residents, the last thing we can afford to lose is any part of our business tax base and have 25% residential tax increases the next year.

Naperville needs to protect its business tax base even more so because of its very wasteful habits that led to increases 4-5 times those of most cities in the state. Let us go back to non-home rule and try to limit real estate tax increases to 5% so we can all afford to continue living in Naperville. Would that not be wonderful again?

On another thread, Marshall was kind enough to give an e-mail address for the Napergate group: Marshall on June 19, 2008 1:38 PM on the "Commuters stuck with tickets" thread.

Marshall wrote, "mail it to NAPERGATE@yahoo.com and it will be sent to 7-10k NAPERGATIANS in a mass e-mail". I commented on that thread but this is a much more appropriate thread to use.

If an e-mail can be sent to a group this large and if even 10% of the group frequents the strip mall it will certainly help them out and possibly save their businesses. I call on this group to help out this mall.

I have to ask yet again...is the whole town of Lockport going bankrupt because the state shut down a major artery into their town? Constant claims are made that this is an isolated incident, but it is not. This happens in cities (like Lockport) and towns all over the country.

People lost their businesses when the Hillside strangler was relocated a few years ago. To expect cities or towns to pay off businesses is ludicrous, unless it is an eminent domain issue.

Another ludicrous claim is that Baily is one of the busiest roads in Naperville. While many use it as a short cut, it is a residential street for the most part, and never intended to be a main traffic artery.

While I feel bad for the businesses, I wonder why the majority did not prepare for the storm like the pizza place did. The convenience store owner is the only one with a halfway valid beef about loss of traffic. The others should have put a plan into action like the pizza place did.

Off the posted subject here, I have to address one of Marshall's bit of misinformation, or lies, whichever you prefer. All my numbers for the other comparable suburbs to Naperville for police salaries were taken from those suburbs web sites. If you are going to ignore the discrepancies from the Herald to the Naperville and Aurora web sites, than the other suburbs site's numbers have to be taken as fact too. You all want to lie about or ignore these numbers because it destroys your point about paying to get good officers.

Also, I can't help it if I can quickly do a google search to fine my information. You all want to laud someone who spends all night to find simple information. I have to question that persons ability to find and interpret such information when a simple search takes so long.

Beverly wrote:

"Why can't the Bailey Rd Retailers hold onto their taxes and devote them to a temporary bridge that would benefit them. Why do they have to put their taxes in the larger pool while downtown landlords only put them in the DOWNTOWN pool? This is what I understand TIF is doing. Am I wrong Mr. Marshall and Mr. Public?"

You are partially right, Beverly. The portion of total taxes equal to the amount that was paid before the implementation of the TIF still goes into general revenue; what stays in the TIF district is the incremental INCREASE in taxes due to higher property valuations SINCE the implementation of the TIF. And TIFs in Illinois have a maximum allowable lifespan of 23 years (I've learned a little bit more since this morning).

One other thing, I'm not sure that we currently have ANY TIFs in Naperville. According to the Illinois Tax Increment Association website, Naperville did not have any active TIFs as of January 1, 2006 (http://www.illinois-tif.com/IllinoisTIFs.asp). I know that creation of a TIF has been discussed for the Water Street development. Does anybody know if that is a done deal?

Sarah, you are making the mistake of trying to project your feelings onto me as if they are mine. Please don't.

I don't find the 20% matching funds "unconsionable". I find it high. I think it could be shaved if the appropriate bodies vote to shave it, but I would not lose a wink of sleep nor care or worry if it stays at its 20% level.

My support for the police and fire department is not weakening. I support no cut in pay for them and personally don't care about the OT costs because I think both departments do a kick-butt job in this city and they are really a class act in the level of service and response times they provide to the citizens.

I'm sorry that *YOU* feel that way about it. I simply don't care and leave the fund matching to the people who's job it is to either modify or leave that employment agreement alone.

Marshall –

I agree that police OT needs to be cut and stated exactly that on the police OT thread.

Yes, we need a healthy tax base but if the city compensated businesses for every construction project, no project would be affordable. I’m not cold-hearted towards the businesses, I just don’t know of a feasible plan to help them so I suggested they help themselves as much as possible.

**********

Tom –

I know this is not something as simple as seal coating (duh), but if you compensate one set of businesses how long will it be before the next is looking for money? That’s the slippery slope I was talking about. Once you turn on the money spigot in this town, nobody seems to be able to turn it off. Next we’ll have a 1% food and beverage tax for construction compensation. Or some dumb councilman will suggest taking the compensation money from the Culture (slush) Fund.

Where do you draw the line? How do you draw the line? And do you trust the council to hold the line to a minimum?

T.B.

I guess Ken, Joe and TB wanted the last word on this thread and got it. It is amazing how important it is for them to always have the last word.

It seems they think having the last word negates anything said prior. It really does not!

I think most of the bloggers made great points in support of the businesses. The city was really is in an indefensible position. While it had great intentions in repairing the bridge, it did not think or plan properly for the consequences that would follow.

That is where I believe the problem lies. They did not do the necessary planning to minimize collateral damage to the retailers.

A good army always minimizes collateral damage. In this case Naperville was not a good army. It did nothing to minimize collateral damage. It left widespread damage in its path that is visible everywhere!

Marshall;

" A 2.5 million bridge put over Rt.59 was done in a way where it only closed Rt. 59 for a few hours. And yet there were complaints for those few hours. They worked the graveyard shift from 11pm to 9am to get that bridge up in one evening!"

Apples and oranges Marshall. Two totally different situations. Setting a prefab pedestrian bridge over a roadway doesn't compare with a concrete bridge that carries traffic. The pedestrian bridge can be built off site and set in a few hours, as it goes over an existing road.

"No one was working the afternoon shift let alone the night shift. Weekend working only started after Mr. Jim Bartlett of Bloom Above made a stink and got front page coverage in the Naperville Sun."

They worked last Saturday because of the all day rains on Friday, not because of any pressure from the City or media. The contractor has a performance incentive to finish the job early, and obviously he is confident it is on schedule to recieve said bonus or you would see more activity. There is only so much that can be done at a time with this type bridge, it is done in stages. The demolition goes quickly, but the forming and ironwork involved for the footings, columns and deck is time consuming. Once each step is poured, they have to wait for the concrete to cure, usually a few days, before starting the next step. They also cannot pour concrete if there is any chance of rain.

"It just seems the city made a calcualted decison that these 10 businesses are not as important as the businesses on Rt. 59. They could take the heat from the devastation to these business. But they obviously could not take the heat from the devastation to the Rt 59 businesses so they found a way to build that bridge in a way to keep the road open."

Again, there would be no reason to close 59 as the actual road itself was not where the work was being done. They planned to closed 59 for a short time for the safety of the motorists and the reason it is done at night is to have least affect on traffic. Rt 59 is a state road, and the state also would not allow their road to be closed any longer than necessary. Unfortunately, there were a few snags and it took longer than expected. Yes there was some whining from the leave 5 minute too late for work crowd, but the end result was a nice new bridge put up safely.

"It does not seem like a Pedestrian Bridge over Rt 59 should cost as much as a complete concrete bridge over a river. Unless one was done expensively to keep the road open and one was done cheaply by closing the road completely."

I can see the Ped. bridge costing as much as the Bailey Rd. bridge. I am sure the cost of the right of way the city had to purchase was included in the cost. Also, the cost of the concrete and labor involved for the footings and columns that the bridge set upon. I hope you did notice those Marshall, as they started building those last fall? They are quite large. Then add in the fabrication and transportation of the actual bridge sections and you will find that a Ped. bridge does cost the same as a two lane bridge over a small river. Both are labor intensive and require a lot of concrete, steel and concrete.

Marty, perhaps you misread what I posted prior.

Someone said the city should compensate the businesses. I don't hold that opinion but did suggest they put it forward in public at a city council meeting to get the ball rolling. Have they? Not that I am aware of.

What I did say is that people need to go to these places and give them business if they feel they need to be supported. It's easier for the public to support them and it can happen in 5 minutes or less than it is to try to get the city to pay them money for the drop off in business. I've gone to the plaza, a place I have never been to or needed to go to until now (and still do not NEED to go there) but I am doing so to DO WHAT I CAN to help them out with their businesses.

It doesn't negate someone's opinion that the city should compensate them, but it does TAKE ACTION to actually DO SOMETHING for the businesses instead of simply posting an opinion on a blog site and not even having the conviction to stand up and put forth the idea to city council during public comment.

Some people in life DO something about a situation. Others, unfortunately, just like to complain about things.

RECEIVED A SERVER ERROR TRYING TO POST THIS. UNSURE IF IT IS A DUPLICATE.

That was a nice trip to the plaza.

3 pizzas for the family ($50)
Bottle of Crown No. 16 and a 12-pack of Molson Canadian ($140)
Pack of Green Jasmine Tea from the store ($2).

I must say thank you to the gentleman at the store. He treated me as respectfully for the $2 tea sale as he did the gentleman before me with an $85 sale. For that reason alone, I will keep going there whether the bridge is out or not.

Unfortunately, the flower shop closed at 3 today. There were some pretty things in the window.

Thumbs up to whomever owns the pretty red Viper tucked away in the parking lot's southeast corner. That's a beautiful ride.

Entered in from Oxford, left back on Oxford and headed down to Naper Blvd for a U-turn to head back home.

You have a very good heart, Joe.

I am sure the 25% to 30% in business that the plaza has is coming from people with good hearts like you.

We know it is not coming from traffic driving by....that is for sure!

I hope the liquor store was as nice to you as the Mediterranean Oasis for spending so much money there. It sounds like they got you the bottle they did not have in your first trip.

I want to complement and commend you for your efforts, Joe, to give this plaza much needed business during bridge contruction. And for really going out of your way and not worrying about your gas expense!

You seem to be a man of action and not words.

The flower shop should have longer hours even if they are not doing well! You can never stop trying when times are rough!

Once again Joe, a million thanks to YOU!!!

Rounded out my visit by dropping into the 7-11 at 1:30am for a V8, 2 big packs of gum and a bag of beef jerky for a sale of $10.54 The gentleman working was very polite and kind.

It's far easier for everyone to do it this way to keep the businesses alive.

It doesn't take much effort, time or money. The more people that do it the better off they will be.

Tenant,

Thank you.

I do what I can and I do what I say. Even with a single $2 sale, if 1/4 of the households in town (earlier on other threads said to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 50,000 to 60,000) went there for a single purchase, it would generate at least $25K in gross sales.

(50,000 / 4 * $2) = $25,000 gross sales

It doesn't really take much individual effort from people; it just takes them to do something even if it seems small. When collectively put together it can make a HUGE impact.

I plan on getting more things from the grocery store. I was thoroughly impressed with the selections and brands that are simply not what I am used to. I love trying new things and the menu the gentleman slipped into my bag w/ the tea will be put to good use.

My late night drives will also have the 7-11 as a destination because entering from the south through the neighborhood (via Riverwood) is a beautiful and peaceful twisty road filled with lots of raccoons staring into your headlights and looking all cute :)

Off to the plaza between 1:15 and 1:30 pm. Flower shop closed on Sundays. Bummer.

Went to Med Oasis for kabob materials for grilling tonight. Nice marinated lamb and chicken, tasty kalamata olives, cool looking pita w/ olive oil and thyme (want to try warming that on the grill)... and rounded off with a nice little in of Baklava.

Constructive criticism to the young gentleman behind the meat counter:

When a customer asks for a specific count don't tell them you don't have time to count the pieces and that it will take all day. I was the only one back there and it would have taken at most 45 extra seconds. As a result, the handful grab was 2 pieces short of the number I was looking for but I compensated w/ an extra yellow pepper I had at home and made up some additional veggie-only kabobs.

It's not a show stopper, but when you want customers to come back, do not say things that project the image of them being an 'inconvenience' to the store or the employee. The truth is the whole trip was an 'inconvenience' to me but I did it anyway.

I doubt your intention was to project that image, so take the constructive criticism for what it is.

At the risk of yet another post...

A final trip tonight after dinner to the Oasis before closing for some Humus and bread.

The kabobs were awesome for dinner and I tossed the pita w/ olive oil and thyme on the top rack of the grill to warm up and also soak up some of the flavors of the kabobs below.

I foresee many more kabob cookouts this summer.

Thank you for a great meal.

Mr. Joe,

Thank you so much for going out of your way to visit my Mediterranean Oasis new store. I appreciate that you are driving 7-8 miles out of your way to visit my store and other stores in the plaza.

I want to thank you for the nice critique of my store and food items.

I also thank you for the constructive criticism. I want to apologize to you for that employee behind the meat counter who refused to count the pieces of kabob for you especially since it was a slow time. That was inexcusable!

Next time you come to the store please introduce yourself to me. I will have a pound of kabob on the house for you. I believe I was the gentleman who slipped the menu in your Pack of Green Jasmine Tea.

Again, thank you for having a big heart and going out of your way to help others in rough times. We really do appreciate what you have done for us and all your very nice posts!

Nick/Mediterranean Oasis
630 420 9507

I went well out of my way tonight - after work to get some flowers for my wife for a special occasion. I arrived at A Bloom Above @6:42 only to find the store closed. The hours posted on the front door say the store is open until 7:00. I could have easily stopped at numerous places during my commute home, but felt the need to support a Naperville merchant during hard times. Needless to say, I won't be purchasing flowers there anytime soon even when it's convienent.

I should send him a bill for my time and gas.

I did stop in there (A Bloom Above) about 20 minutes earlier and did get a ceramic piggy bank for my youngest daughter, 5 gum cigars and a dish garden plant. Then to the Oasis for a sugar fix with my littlest two loading up on Hello Pandas, many Yan Yan's and a bag of rock sugar for myself (for my coffee) and then off to 7-11 for some slurpees to round out the trip.

Funny how this subject died as soon as the napergatians were shown up by Joe actually doing something to help out the merchants in that plaza.

Nick,

I'm sorry I hadn't gotten a chance since Monday night to come back, but I will shortly (hopefully this weekend) as I need some more vittles and have been talking to someone who regularly frequents your store and have been getting the scoop and recommendations from your menu (all good ones, too). I'm anxious to try some sandwiches and dinners.

By Ken on June 26, 2008 4:54 PM
Funny how this subject died as soon as the napergatians were shown up by Joe actually doing something to help out the merchants in that plaza.

____________________________________________________________________

Ken,

All threads eventually die after they come off the Main Page. That has been discussed many times by others and myself. The Napergatians don't feel showed up by Joe. We are proud of the actions Joe has taken and his encouragement to others for a good cause. We don't have egos where we need to criticise Joe for no reason especially when he is sending a good message and setting a great example to all Napervillians!

Joe has changed immensely since his first days on this Blog Site.

He use to enjoy the rises you give yourself but grew out of them. He use to take the other side for no other reason. He matured. He has come a long way!

In your case, Ken, you still have not matured. You are not on these Blog Sites for anyone's good but yourself. It is really shameful that you are on here to get rises.

You want to meet people at Jimmy's too. I really think you need to relocate yourself to match.com where you can start meeting people at Jimmy's for drinks.

This blog was set up so people can anonymously criticise or complement government or discuss other issues pertaining to thier lives.

Even Joe is now gently asking questions about police and firemen pension costs. And correclty blaming the City Council!

Allowing to post anonymous is why this blog site is successful. If we all gave full names and revealed our identities do you think we would ever have a chance for favorable discretion if stopped by a Naperville Police Officer.

If they knew a specific person wants their pension halved, they would issue him 3 tickets everytime they stopped him instead of one. It is human nature to retaliate and police are humans as we are! They are not robots who do not have strong feelings about their pensions and benefits....they may have been promised more than we can afford so they have every right to be pissed if we file bankruptcy.

We all know the Napergate Man never gets a break when he is stopped. He is imprisoned for emission and tollway violations. If I recall correctly, he dared to criticise the Naperville Police in his Napergate ads where he could be identified and was!

Let us be real, Ken!

You could be an agent of the NPD. No one is going to be stupid and meet you at Jimmy's with 6 bike cops stationed right outside the balconey. It sounds like you are trying to set up a trap for your Napergatian buddies...no thanks, Ken! Maybe the Barbie Dolls will meet you at Jmmmy's! Real people will not meet you! Anywhere!!!

Host Ted,

I do not have the inside informaton you have.

But could you please explain to Ken that you receive many times more posts than letters to the edtior.

In a letter to the editor, a writer has to give his or her full name to be published.

On Ted's Threads you don't have to give your real name.

Could this be the reason many more people prefer to post than write letters to the editor, Host Ted?

I am going to guess that you probably receive at least 100 posts for each letter to the editor! Let me know how far off my guess is Host Ted?

BTW you are doing a great job running your site. I think your neutrality has enhanced your statue on your Blog Site!

Reply from Ted:

That's certainly a possibility, Maryann. I have no empirical research, either, about online posts vs. letters to the editor. Only anecdotal experience that would tend to support your theory.

Ah, another nonsensical rant, eh Maryann? Of course you hide behind the internet, as making childish references to Barbie and such would make you look more of an idiot in person, or in a letter signed by you in the editorial section than it does here in anonymity. I understand that keyboard rambos such as yourself have to hide. Of course many count on this here. I, unlike you, don't need proof of the obvious.

By the way, thanks for the match.com reference, but as I have been happily married for longer than your brain has functioned...hold it, that never happened yet...suffice it to say, I don't need a computer dating service as you must have from your familiarity of such things.

As for the oft stated fear of prosecution, that is a load of crap. I have been harassed been a police force in my much younger days, and a call to my lawyer and threat of a lawsuit took care of that problem. If you don't break the law, you have nothing to fear. Fact is, most cops know the public loathes them until they need them, so your fear is a moot point to them. That is why towns may pay more for a better police officer that can put this knowledge aside and do his job fairly.

Mary, sorry to cut in... but:

"We all know the Napergate Man never gets a break when he is stopped. He is imprisoned for emission and tollway violations. "

He was held for processing due to being arrested for driving with a suspended driver's license. THAT is the arrestable offense. The tollway, emission violations are not arrestable offenses.

It was said earlier on other threads that he wanted no preferential treatment and that the Hoopla was the alleged 'breaks' that everyone else got. Now, you're saying that not getting a break is a bone of contention? I'm confused. Either we want the law applied equally to everyone, or we want the law loosely applied based on who someone is. Which is it?

"If they knew a specific person wants their pension halved, they would issue him 3 tickets everytime they stopped him instead of one. It is human nature to retaliate and police are humans as we are!"

Not everyone is vindictive in their professional career. This is a blanket statement of your own opinion only and I can assure you doesn't apply to everyone.

Ken,

The only keyboard rambo on this blog site is you. You are a non-stop keyboard rambo.

As Ken you are anonymous. Who are you trying to kid? If you are so brave give out your full name so we can put you under the microsope like you and your ilk put the Napergate Man under the microscope for months. Nothing much was found on him. Let us see what you are hiding behind that Ken name.

If you were happily married you would be spending some time with your wife. Between your job and all this blogging I doubt that your "happy" wife gets any attention.

Maybe you ought to ask your wife if she is happily married. If my husband spent the kind of time you do on this blog site, I would show him the divorce door. I did not marry my husband to live on a blog site. Your wife did not marry you so that you can live on a blog site.

I bet you don't even recall the last time you showed her some affection or bought her some roses!!!

Well, Loretta, when have I ever said I was not anonymous by using my first name? In fact, if you had any reading comprehension at all, you would have noted the numerous times that I have pointed that fact out to all who are to afraid to be known by one name. What separates me from keyboard rambos such as yourself is the fact that I am willing to meet anyone who has called me a liar and back up anything I have said with facts, in person. None of your ilk is brave enough to take me up on that offer.

Where have I or anyone else put your hero under the microscope? I, and others, have just commented on the saga presented by the various cult members, not on any personal information about him. I have even noted that I have great respect for his actions when he was being harassed by Naperville. I have little respect for his followers that seem only able to complain that they have lost a leader for their supposed movement.

Loretta, I feel bad that your marriage is so fragile that you would divorce your husband if he spent an hour or so online. Maybe if you weren't so shrewish, he would give you the affection you obviously need. My wife and I realize that partners in a good marriage don't try to control each other's activities. She has things she likes to do, including surfing the net, and I have things I like to do. Couples in a good marriage can combine individual pursuits and combined pursuits without strain. I hope one day you can manage this in yours. Good luck.

By Joe on June 27, 2008 11:59 AM

"We all know the Napergate Man never gets a break when he is stopped. He is imprisoned for emission and tollway violations. "

He was held for processing due to being arrested for driving with a suspended driver's license. THAT is the arrestable offense. The tollway, emission violations are not arrestable offenses.

===================================================================

Joe,
I think you are returning to your old self and playing with semantics a little. The tollway and emission violations caused his suspended driver's license. Thus they are ARRESTABLE OFFENSES and he was arrested.

He was not held for processing. He was arrested. He needed 1000 dollars(really 10% of that to bail out). If he did not have it on him he would have remained in jail until a Judge decided whether he wanted to release him on his own recognizance or not. So he was not just held for processing. He was actually jailed and needed bond money to release himself from jail.

I think we would all like to see everyone treated equally in this town. I think what Napergatians were calling for is that all establishment folks be treated like the Napergate Man.

The other day my uncle went through a red light on the way to church. The Naperville Police Officer gave him a break and told him to be more careful next time. Do you think the Napergate Man would be given a break if he ran a red light?

I think discretion is still a problem in this city even though we put it on the back burner.

And as we have learned in the last week or so how interesting that Sgt. Gregg Bell, the arresting officer who may have abused his discretion, turns out to he the head of Internal Affairs who reviews these cases. So basically if the Napergate Man filed a complaint, a dept. headed by his arresting officer would review the case. That may be why he never filed a complaint!

Now tell me Joe, if you think this is a conflict of interest.

I would like to see Editor Ted push for a civilian Internal Affairs reviewing possible inappropriate police action instead of the police reviewing themselves which is mostly a farce!

What are your thoughts, Joe?

My thoughts are I didn't catch a break by NPD and had to take my butt over to Wheaton to take care of it when I hit the light at River and Aurora a few years back. I didn't have long-time admirers complaining about me being given a ticket and not simply sent on my merry way with a warning nor did I complain myself. I simply took care of it. I guess that right there shows I'm not an 'establishment folk' because I received no preferential treatment either.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but part of the arrest procedure includes the posting of bond or release on one's own recognizance depending on the nature of the offense and the perceived danger to the community. While that is being processed, the suspect is placed in protective custody, which in most cases is a jail cell until they can process the paperwork and bond is posted (if required). If someone is unable to post bond, they are usually transferred to the county jail for holding until they can be brought in front of a judge for their hearing.

As for an officer being in charge of internal affairs; yes that could be perceived as a conflict of interest if they have no procedure for said officer to recuse themselves from any investigation into themselves. Do you know of any lack of procedure like that?

NPD could always hire a dedicated person in charge of Internal Affairs and add yet another body to the payroll and pension system. Perhaps that is the proper way to handle it. I'd support that. Would you?

Having a suspended license is not an arrestable offense. If you think it is, cite the code. DRIVING with a suspended license is an arrestable offense; which is exactly what I said. One is a state of being (license status), the other is actually DOING something while your license is in that state of being. The ACT is arrestable, being suspended without action, is not. This is a point of law. Blending them together means you are getting the law wrong and misrepresenting it.

Before this gets too far more off track, what does this have to do with a bridge being out? Let's not cloud this thread with this rehash. Let's take it back to the old NG2 thread where it should be if you want to talk about it further. We would be doing a disservice to the plaza store owners to continue it here.

Blake, was your uncle's license suspended when he ran the red light?

By Joe on June 27, 2008 4:40 PM

Before this gets too far more off track, what does this have to do with a bridge being out? Let's not cloud this thread with this rehash. Let's take it back to the old NG2 thread where it should be if you want to talk about it further. We would be doing a disservice to the plaza store owners to continue it here.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Joe,
I agree Joe that we are doing a disservice to the plaza store owners. I think Maryann just mentioned that she did not want to meet Ken in Jimmy's for fear that police would recognize her and abuse their discretion as in the Napergate Man case. It was a sentence in a one page post. I think it escalated because you took this sentence and wrote a full page about it. That ia how things get out of control. Personally, I am tired of talking about the arrest and we should forget about it.

We have so many more important issues to talk about such as all the money that will be wasted on the library deck, police OT and firemen pension.

Let us get back on subject on this thread and try to help the retailers. You can help Joe by igoring a comment once in a while instead of lghting a bonfire underneath it.

As far as having a civilian board of review for the Naperville Police, I am for that. Most boards in the city except for the city council are voluntary and do not cost the taxpayers a dime.

I am going to follow in your footsteps Joe and spend some money in that plaza. It was obviously hit pretty hard!

By Ken on June 27, 2008 6:21 PM
Blake, was your uncle's license suspended when he ran the red light?

____________________________________________________________________

Ken,

My uncle's license was NOT suspended when he ran the red light? He just told the officer he was in a hurry to get to church and the officer gave him a break.

As Joe said let us get back on topic.

Maybe one day Host Ted will launch a thread about police discretion. In my opinion there should be no discretion. We should have a more black and white policy with exceptions for emergencies such as a woman about to have a baby and being rushed safely but speedily to the hospital.

Giving a ticket to one guy who goes through a red light and not to another is DISCRIMINATION. We all know it happens in Naperville and Police Chief David Dial should stop this DISCRIMINATION.

I hope your next post, Ken, is about which stores you stopped by at the Bailey Rd. Plaza. I think Joe got a lot of respect because of what he did. He healed a lot of wounds between him and his rivals. It would be nice if we could heal some wounds between you and your rivals. You obviously have quite a few of them!!!

You are pretty amusing, Blake. First you say let's get back to the topic, then you put up another off topic post. Typical of all the cult members, you say what you want, then tell me not to respond to that. Why do you think you should get to post whatever you want on any post, yet I should not respond?

On the subject of discretion, or, as you are now calling it, discrimination, your uncle benefited from something you claim to abhor. The napergate man was treated in a manner you are advocating. Did you call Chief Dial and complain that your uncle did not get a ticket? By the way, a woman having a baby should call 911 if she starts having it unexpectedly. Let the professionals handle the emergency; that is what they get paid for.

Last, but not least, if I do any shopping at the plaza, it will be to help out the merchants there. I don't really care what my "rivals" think about me as I stopped succumbing to peer pressure long ago. I think it would be nice if my "rivals" sent out an email on their vast 10,000 member napergate list and encourage shopping there, but it seems they are more interested in pointless whining than actually doing something. That is a big reason why I don't care about what my "rivals" think; they are more interested in attacking people that don't walk in lockstep with them than in helping out a cause be it theirs or some merchants suffering loss of business.

Chicken and Lamb Kabob dinners w/ rice.. WOW! YUM!

A bunch more Sugar treats for the kids and two meat(lamb?), onion, pine nut dough filled egg-shaped balls fried to a beautiful brown.. DELICIOUS! Unfortunately, I forgot what they were called but my wife and I absolutely loved them. More Baklava and Hummus.

Excellent hospitality there tonight; a helpful, cheerful, witty and fun bunch.

Thank you for a great dinner!

I have to add, it also was a pleasure to say HI to the obviously very respectable customer who was helped ahead of me.

Ken,

I have little doubt the Napergatians frequent that shopping center and are giving it their support.

I think it is great that Joe is giving us a blow by blow as it is a new experience for him. I like reading his critiques of the stores especially the Mediterranean Oasis since it has very unusual food that I am also trying. I agree with him that their food is out of this world. Especially the Hummous and Kabob Sandwiches. I may stop by for a Kabob sandwich tonight since I have a craving for one. A hundred times better than a hamburger. So flavorful especially with that parsely mixed in with the meat!

Many of us have been regulars at that plaza for years. We have found our way there since the bridge was torn down. That is why it is probably doing 25%-50% despite having 0 TRAFFIC from Bailey Rd and the historically low traffic from Oxford that is pretty much a dead end street heading north.

In recent weeks I have been to the Little Italian, C-US Cleaners, A Bloom Above, Extra Value Liquors and the 7-Eleven.

The businesses are all nice Mom and Pop shops and you could always chat with the owners about their business. They really appreciate every single customer and especially these days since they know they are spending extra time and extra gas to get there.

I spoke to the Bloom Above owner, Mr. Jim Bartlett, and he was very upset that his employee had closed 20 minutes early that day without his knowledge. He stated it will never happen again. Sometimes owners can do everything in their power but an employee may have a different agenda.

Don't worry about us Napergatains. Many of us live in the area and are going out of our way to visit. I have ran into quite a few fellow Napergatians at that plaza. Have you visited any of the shops yet, Ken? Do tell about your experiences?

Blake, if you live in the area, you are not going out of the way to shop there. Joe obviously is.

In answer to your question, no, I have not shopped there recently, and probably never will. I support the local mom and pop stores close to me. If they are difficult to get to because of construction, I find a way to get to them. That has been my point throughout this thread. With the exception of the 7-11 which is obviously a convenience store, the other businesses 'loyal' customers should have supported them as I have my local businesses in similar situations.

If my travels take me in that direction, I will stop in, as I have done in the past. Otherwise, as I said, the merchants close to me will continue to get my business, even if it is a little difficult to get to them at times. I am glad to hear that some napergatians are making the minimal extra effort to patronize businesses in their own area.

So glad to see the bridge open now. I rode across it last night. Fine workmanship and looks very very solid and long lasting.