Buying and selling real estate in 2008

Ted,

Regarding this,

When we get the home inspector's report tomorrow, do we ask the seller to knock something off?

You betcha!!

Sounds like you sold you existing home on your own, good job.

As far as property taxes go, while you'd be pressed to buy a house in Naperville for $260,000, if you did, the taxes in the Du Page County section would be in the area of $4,473.00

260K divided by 3 = $86,667 less the $5,000 homestead exemption for a net of $81,667X total tax rate of 5.4774 = $4,473.00. You have to be purchasing a $575K home in Naperville to have your taxes reach $10K.

I hear that usually the fair cash value is less than the purchase price so your taxes would probably be lower than that even.

Be interesting to know what your tax rate is in Joliet. I bet it's higher.

Reply from Ted:

From my current tax bill (just for the property with house):
2007 market value: $150,030
Taxes on home: $3,111.28
Total 2007 tax rate: 6.9124

Biggest taxing districts:
Grade school district: $1,152 plus $72 for pension
High school district: $885 plus $25.20 for pension
City of Joliet: $351.93 plus $181.39 for pension

Why is it the city portion of tax bill is one-third of the grad school district but its pension costs are more than double? Pension costs on my tax bill for schools = very reasonable, no complaints. Pension costs on my tax bill for city employees = starting to get my attention.

Ted,

Pension cost on tax bill is what the government levies for taxes. Since teachers pension are paid by the state, the pension levy on your tax bill for schools only reflect support personnel, custodians, and bus drivers. For the City, the all pensions are paid by the City.

I am not going to bother to address Higgins comments. Higher property values should result in lower tax rates, not more taxes. But I am glad to see that his taxes went up $1,000 last year to $10,600. He should ask to pay for more.

One final comment. In checking on your loans, I hope Joliet has not been designated as a community with DECLINING property values. According to my sources, Naperville has been put on that list by Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. As a result, underwriting standards are more stringient making it more difficult to get loans.

Reply from Ted:

It's tougher for everyone to get mortgages nowadays. Lenders are double- and triple-checking income and employment verification. I heard/read recently that Joliet is actually stable property-value wise. I'm not surprised to hear values are declining in Naperville. Things down here have typically been UNDERpriced. There's a historic district here that is exactly like Naperville's by North Central College. (Our landlocked institution of higher education is the University of St. Francis.) Only here the big ones go for $250K to $400K. Up there you're talking, what? $700K to $900K?

Ted,

I have an answer on your pension contribution disparity.

While there are far more teachers than city employees, the amount on your tax bill is only what the district pays towards teachers pension at .58% of the total for all teacher salaries. The state picks up the bulk of the contribution. Recently at 8-9% of salary going up to 13% then 18% in the next two years and then leveling off at 19.5% from 2011 to 2045. This assuming I'm reading a chart properly that I just found.

Regardless, the bulk of the employer contribution for teachers is paid for by the state. For city employees you pay it all in your property taxes. As soon as I wade through it all I will post it on the teacher pension thread.

Reply from Ted:

Thanks, Thom. That makes sense. Dan D. said something similar. Nice to see you two on the same page about something. :)

City of Joliet: $351.93 plus $181.39 for pension

Why is it the city portion of tax bill is one-third of the grad school district but its pension costs are more than double? Pension costs on my tax bill for schools = very reasonable, no complaints. Pension costs on my tax bill for city employees = starting to get my attention.

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Maybe the City of Joliet did not switch to the self-managed plan as Aurora did limiting contributions to 10%.

Police unions appear to be tough in Joliet and Naperville.

Or maybe the City Councils are very weak!

I think with the situation in Naperville of pension contributions reaching 21.16% for police and firemen with $50.5 million in the deficet hole, change is on the way.

One front page article in the Sun to wake up the mostly uninvolved, and I think Naperville will make the change to SELF-MANAGED funds.

Taxpayers could never endure the current escalating bottomless pit for much longer. We already have 349 forclosures in Naparville plus many more pending. Many banks repossessed without foreclosing but through negotiation.

Let us hope we are on our way to SELF-MANAGED pension funds with exposure limited to 10% to the TAXPAYER!

"Today we had the inspection on the new home. It needs a new roof, probably $5K to $6K. I want to get rid of a tree that's hanging over the house, probably another $2K. Some windows need fixing: $1K. When we get the home inspector's report tomorrow, do we ask the seller to knock something off?"

These things are always negotiable, but don't expect the seller to pay 100% of the cost of a new roof unless the existing roof has a lot of leaks. I'd say "good luck" on getting the seller to cut down the tree or fix the windows. They might agree to kick you back a few hundred dollars at closing, though.

One thing to remember about property taxes is that you can write them off of your income taxes if you itemize your deductions. And if you're taking out a bigger mortgage, it might pay to itemize next year if you're not doing it already.

Good luck on your move. I moved here from the West Coast a few years ago and it was definitely one of the most stressful experiences of my life. Your move will probably be easier, though.

There's a historic district here that is exactly like Naperville's by North Central College. (Our landlocked institution of higher education is the University of St. Francis.) Only here the big ones go for $250K to $400K. Up there you're talking, what? $700K to $900K?

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The big ones here by NCC and Hillside are going for 1 million to 3 million. I don't believe you will find anything in the 700k to 900k unless it is an old house and you really are just paying for the land since it is about DEMOLITION.

Once you go 2 or miles away from downtown you find the 700k to 900ks your are talking about for big ones meaning 4000 s.f. The real big ones with 6000 s.f. plus are up in the millions even 2 miles away from downtown.

Reply from Ted:

Thanks, that's very interesting--I hadn't kept up, obviously.

What are the big reasons for the differences in values? No.1 and No. 2 have got to be crime rate and the quality of public schools.

Host Ted,

Too bad your templates won't copy the pictures. Sorry but here is the information on some downtown average homes!

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557 Juniper Dr
Naperville
$1,465,000
Bed/bath: 5/5.1
Property Details >> Nothing But Top Of The Line Finishes In This Custom Home With 4 Finished Levels. Curved Paver Drive Leads To Stunning Arched Front Door. Brazillian Cherry Flooring, Plantation Shutters, Gourmet Kitchen W/ Viking SS Appliances. Naperville's Best Home Theater Is The Jewel Of Finished Bsmt W/Wet Bar, Rec Rm, & Den/Br. 'smart Home' Technology. Great Open Floor Plan. 2 Laundry Rms! Close To Downtown & Minut...

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669 N Main St
Naperville
$1,189,000
Bed/bath: 5/5
Property Details >> Short Sale!!!fabulous All Brick Construction Located In A Peacefull Neighborhood. Custom Wood Work And Extensive Use Of Granite And Marble. Gourmet Kitchen W/Glazed Cabinets And Huge Center Island, Thermadore Appliances. Luxurious Master Suite W/Jacuzzi And Seperate Shower. Elegant 8ft High Doors Perfect Family Home!!!

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Presently thousand of European are living their own houses in Southern Province in Sri lanka. Therefore if I able to find such a faithful family or person I will offer a chance to build their own house under long term lease or as you wish. because I have 3.55 hectares (8.75 acres, not a crown land) It is suitable for residence.
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Undoubtedly you did a great job as the procedure could be much more difficult. I`m working for a Toronto real estate company and I would say that most of the individuals trying to go through the procedure without the help of an agent are getting in troubles. I won`t say it`s impossible to make a great deal without the help of a professional but in that case one should acquire a lot of information on the process.

Reply from Ted:

Just to clarify: we DID use a Realtor. It was listed on the market--we had several showings off the bat, no offers. Then we went a couple weeks with no showings. We lowered the price (originally listed at $210,000 for both, dropped to $200,000) and bought the ad in the paper ourselves, then got the offers.

Year ago I was searching a site where I could sell my house. I found really great site. It was called Fizber. There were great services. You can find them here http://www.fizber.com/sale-by-owner-home-services/index.htm.

Did you get Barry O (the name Obama went by in high school) and Tony R to buy your house and adjacent lot?

Regarding Dan Denys comment below;

I hope Joliet has not been designated as a community with DECLINING property values. According to my sources, Naperville has been put on that list by Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. As a result, underwriting standards are more stringient making it more difficult to get loans.

As usual Dan just makes it up just for effect. If you go to this Freddiemac link

http://search.freddiemac.com/search?q=naperville&pathName=%2Findex.html&entqr=0&output=xml_no_dtd&sort=date%3AD%3AL%3Ad1&client=default_frontend&ud=1&oe=UTF-8&ie=UTF-8&proxystylesheet=default_frontend&proxyreload=0&site=default_collection

you will find a sales analysis for almost 400 separate town's or selling area's (great fun). For us, the Chicago, Naperville, Joliet area is considered one selling area. Here are the stats.

1. For the first quarter of 2008 sales prices have declined .50%. That's 1/2 of a percent

2. The annual change from 1qtr 2007 to 1qtr 2008 is a gain of .30%

3. Total gain from 1qtr 2003 to 1qtr 2008 40.75%

4. Average annual change 7.08%

So there are quite a few problems with Denys claims. First, Joliet and Naperville are lumped together, and second, far from being on a watch list, the area is 130th in terms of 1qtr sales. The worst of which experienced a 12% quarterly and 39% annual decline.

When I debated Denys at length in these blogs last spring, he continually made comments regarding the declining Naperville housing market. The problem is it's just not true. I can find the proofs in the MLS reports I have somewhere, but Naperville had a small gain in housing prices for calendar year 2007, mirroring the Freddiemac stats. Further, I believe the Sun reported a story recently that Naperville housing prices went up a bit in the 1qtr, but that may have been the number of homes sold, I'm not positive there. Regardless, in a admittedly down market I can think of a host of places I'd rather not be trying to sell a house than Naperville.

The reason for Dan's determination to talk down Naperville is due, I believe, to his desire to make people believe that property taxes are destroying Naperville property values as he is an anti-tax zealot, if you will pardon the adjective. He is a founding member of an anti-tax group The Will DuPage Taxpayers Alliance, whose mission is to oppose taxation in any manner possible.

Now, Dan will respond that he's a watchdog looking out for you, but in reality I suspect he's just trying to cut his tax bills as much as possible as he doesn't use public schools for his kids and he's about $300,000.00 in the hole.

As usual, Thom Higgins knows it all.

Call a mortgage broker, ask him if you house is in a "declining price" area, he can get the information from his screen. It is not done by SMSA's (or whatever they are now called), they are done by Census Tracts. Very discreet areas. You do not have access to this information.

Ted you should do an investigative series on this (or the Sun Times). Talk to people trying to get loans, the underwriting standards have been clamped down, big time. The interest rate cuts have done nothing in the mortgage and lending arenas, credit is scarce for many reasons, but it is being rationed very carefully.

The averages you cite really don't matter if you paid $600,000 or more for your house and you can't sell if for $100,000 less than that amount. Still above average.

Better yet, get a realtor to tell you that housing prices are booming in the area. I have not met one that has made that comment.

And yes, Thom, are you getting $1,000 more in services this year compared to last year, since your taxes increased by this amout, over 10%, to $10,600? You are going to make the argument that higher taxes ADD VALUE to your house? Just like before, you can NEVER produce that evidence. Not one article, period.

And don't try to put words in my mouth. Until five years ago, Naperville taxes were very reasonable. Then we got the extra $700 tax increase for the schools (almost 20% extra). AND THE MONEY WAS NOT SPENT!!!!! FIRST NATIONAL BANK OF DISTRICT 203. Yes Thom, I think that this action contributed to people to look to other areas--Long Grove, Libertyville, Barrington--areas where taxes have not gone out of control. Areas where school boards balance the impact of taxes and the wants of workers.

AND IT WAS UNNECESSARY. Now 203 has lost over 10% of its students, but it cannot save money? HOGWASH!!!!! Why do you think that the North Shore spends more money per student? They had massive decreases in enrollment. They were able to keep taxes reasonable and improve education. What do the students in 203 have? Fully implemented foreign language? Longer school day that is critical for the elementary student? Magnet schools and choice like Chicago? Frontier Campus? Any other creative ideas from the Adminstrative office? Is 203 a cutting edge district? Any recognition of that?

NOTHING!!! NOTHING!!!!! NOTHING!!!!!

More money, more whining, nothing else.

And don't rail on me. Almost 15% of the people in 203 send their children to private schools or home school. Funny, people I know send their children to public school since their child would have a difficult time at Benet or Wheaton Academy. Makes sense, 203 teaches to the median, so that can result in a good education. And truthfully, 50% of students are median (between 25% and 75%), so this is not a problem. And 203 has programs for the top 1%. So the only students who are left behind (or go elsewhere) are the 3 to 24%, a major group.

But again, you get at least the same education (better discipline) for $7,000 at Benet compared to at least $10,000 at Central. And you know who told us to go to Benet? The teachers at Central!!!! The honor teachers at the time felt 203 was not the best environment. And don't forget that there is no comparable 203 school to Avery Coonley--none. Oh, there are in other Districts like Chicago and the north shore, but not Naperville.

You are going to tell me that government is efficient and does better than the private sector. Again, never heard that one.

Dan,

Let’s recap your words,

According to my sources, Naperville has been put on that list by Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. As a result, underwriting standards are more stringient making it more difficult to get loans

So, I did some digging at the very source you indicated, and it shows you are completely wrong.

As per usual, rather than apologizing for the mistake, you characteristically double down, here by changing your source for the information

Call a mortgage broker, ask him if you house is in a "declining price" area, he can get the information from his screen. It is not done by SMSA's (or whatever they are now called), they are done by Census Tracts. Very discreet areas. You do not have access to this information.

How about you getting some access to this information and sharing it with us? Will it show as you charged previously that Naperville has been put on this list? You claim to have sources.

I did look up the sales statistics I have for Naperville and Joliet for calendar year 2007 per the MLS. This is for single family housing only. The median price went up 1.8% in Naperville for the year over 2006. Joliet was dead flat. And of course, the prior years the gains, at least in Naperville, were much higher. I think the annual percentage increases peaked in 2005, if I remember correctly.

As for the rest of the post, all I can say is Wow! What a rant! I guess all the pent up anger is from your bewilderment over your failed attempt to take over the school board, and adding insult to injury, residents voting recently to approve the building referendum.

But the fact of the matter is, contrary to all your huffing and puffing, 203 schools are excellent, they provide an excellent education for all students through a variety of programs, and the statistics prove it, (no matter how much you try to criticize the various studies). Fortunately, there are enough sensible people who recognize these facts.

I do note that you have resorted to your favorite trick of putting damming words into the most unlikely of mouths. Please Dan, tell us the name of the honors teacher at Central who told you to send you daughter to Benet because “203 was not the best environment”?

One more thought regarding this from Dan,

And yes, Thom, are you getting $1,000 more in services this year compared to last year, since your taxes increased by this amout, over 10%, to $10,600? You are going to make the argument that higher taxes ADD VALUE to your house? Just like before, you can NEVER produce that evidence. Not one article, period.

Dan your memory is failing you. We debated this earlier this year;

Find me any economist that will opine that this extra taxing has ANY positive benefit on the economy or home values. It is not even a wealth transfer since it is not being spent.

My response;

Dan, you of all people should know to never, never, ask me to find something. To all readers the study excerpt below simply confirms what we all know already. People move to Naperville, and other communities with high performing school districts largely for the schools if they have a family. They are willing to pay a premium for those homes because of the schools. And they also are willing to fund those schools within reason with their property taxes.

V. CONCLUSION AND IMPLICATIONS
Do parents value school quality? Indeed they do. Using an
approach that compares houses that are close to each other but
are associated with different elementary schools, I find that
parents do care about school peers and other unmeasured components
of school quality. As such, they are willing to pay about 2.1
percent—or $3948—more for houses associated with test scores
that are 5 percent higher at the mean. My findings also suggest
that a move from a school that scores in the twenty-fifth percentile
of my sample to a school in the seventy-.fifth percentile would
result in a house price increase of $5452. These results are robust
to different tests of specification and omitted variable biases.

For instance, a one-point rise in average reading and math
scores in Massachusetts that is less than a one-standard deviation
increase (and a bit more than the change in scores in the
last ten years) could lead to a 1.5 percent increase in housing
prices. Given that there were 36,610 houses in the state in 1985
and the median sales price was $126,000, this rise in scores
suggests a $69,192,900 jump in overall wealth in Massachusetts
In short, parents’ willingness to pay more for better schools,
as measured by test scores, is found to be capitalized in house prices

Link to above
http://www.econ.ucla.edu/hotz/e232d/readings/black.pdf

Now if you want an economists view in highly complex language go here,

http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/pdf/haurin/haurin.pdf

"You are going to tell me that government is efficient and does better than the private sector. Again, never heard that one."

Well, Medicare, for one (at least), has lower administrative costs than private plans.

More to the point, private schools are able to do a "better" job because they can tailor their product to a select group. If you make Benet and Wheaton Academy accept EVERYBODY who applies, I'm willing to bet that their costs will go up and their test scores will go down.

John Q., I willing to bet that if the public schools could enforce discipline like Benet and Wheaton Academy, their costs would go down and their test scores would go up.

The public schools, like most other government run programs, are set up to fail at being able to run a good program with good results.

The wonder of the internet, you can find articles that say anything.

Well, let's see if I follow Thom's argument. He paid $1,000 or 10% more in taxes last year. That money was well spent on students (primarily) and other government services.

Simple question, did the value of his house (market, not some tax value) increase by 10%? That was my question. Not that houses sell for more money in good districts (by the way, $3,948 is about 1% of the median price of a house in Naperville). As Mike D. has always stated and I implied in my last post, the schools were always fine before the massive tax increases. THAT IS WHEN REAL ESTATE VALUES WERE THE HIGHEST. THAT IS WHEN WE RECEIVED THE MOST VALUE FOR OUR TAX DOLLARS.

With the 10% tax increase, did test scores improve by 10%? More money should equate to results. Uh, NO.

Are schools twice as good in Hinsdale since the prices of homes are twice the cost of Naperville (or whatever the PRECISE amount is)? NO.

To all people on this blog, my point has been simply that the arrogance and deception to the community about this extra taxing that has been put in the bank (and not spent on educatonal programs) has not translated into educational improvement. That is my opinion, others are entitled to theirs.

Simple question. There will be a 10% reduction in the number of students, why not at least a 5% reduction in cost (one half) excluding inflation?

Did everyone see the article about No Child Left Behind that shows that the students in the bottom 25% of students have improved, but those in the top 25% have made NO PROGRESS!!!! Do you know that District 203 does not group students by ability, they go out of their way to make certain that classes have students with a wide spectrum of abilities. The only exceptions, pull out programs for limited math and reading (good idea, you employ two teachers instead of one--this concept seems to be more about job creation rather that educational excellence). The other, the top 2% of District students in PI Plus starting in the fifth grade.

203 is a big district. Why not designate two schools with open enrollment (through the entire district) where students would be tracked? Let the parents decide how they want their children educated. Then you would not need private schools. Teachers are somewhat short sited, they could have more jobs if more people wanted their services.

I was stunned about the socialistic biases in the schools. The goal is to promote mediocrity. Read Barbara Herr, she feels that every job should be filled by a lottery, not by ability. She advocates lotteries for college admissions. Imagine, a drawing to determine the next president. I have never seen the District reject her comments.

In closing, we should notify the tax assessor that Thom feels his house has increased another 10% due to higher taxes. People should get what they ask for.

Ken wrote:

"John Q., I willing to bet that if the public schools could enforce discipline like Benet and Wheaton Academy, their costs would go down and their test scores would go up."

No argument from me, there, at least for the test scores; I'm not so sure the costs would be much less. But Benet and Wheaton have a disciplinary tool that the public school systems do not: they can readily expel kids who misbehave.

"The public schools, like most other government run programs, are set up to fail at being able to run a good program with good results."

Some public school districts DO get very good results. Moreover, the United States has one of the best-educated populaces in the world, most of which is educated in the public school system, so we must be doing SOMETHING right. And while there are plenty of examples of countries that do better than us, I bet you can't find a single one that doesn't rely primarily on public schools.

Dan_D wrote:

"Simple question. There will be a 10% reduction in the number of students, why not at least a 5% reduction in cost (one half) excluding inflation?"

I know your question is directed at Thom, but I'll take a stab at answering it. That 10% reduction is spread out across the district, so you're talking about 139 kids per grade level. At the elementary school level, you're talking about 10 kids per grade, per school. You can't close 10% of a school, or cut 1/3 of a teacher. You can redistrict to try and cut costs, but that costs money, too; and, as anyone in District 204 will tell you, it is fraught with difficulties of a political nature.

FWIW, my daughter's school cut one teacher at her grade level this past year because there weren't quite enough kids for three classes. The result was two large classes, which was upsetting to some of the parents.

Regarding Dan’s post above,

Wow, another stream of consciousness rant.

How about for once you say “I apologize, my source apparently was incorrect regarding Freddiemac putting Naperville on a watch list for declining home values”

It’s all it would have taken. It would be over. But instead, when I call you on another of your ridiculous, false claims, you go off on one of your typical rants about how awful the schools are.

You claim that housing values were highest before the 2002 referendum? It’s absurd, and every person except for you and Davitt know it. Real estate values in Naperville grew by at least 40% since 2002. In fact we had some of the highest yearly increases in values just after the referendum! You well know that is one of the reasons why the taxes went up so much. But far be it for you to let facts get in the way of your diatribes. That’s what’s so tragic about your posts, you are so obsessed with attempting to destroy D203’s reputation, that you will post anything, truth be dammed, in your sad, futile, attempt to convince people that black is white.

And you know what? You’ve said it all before, at length, in FULL CAPS furry, and what do you have to show for it? Nada.

You lost your school board election in which your ally Mike Davitt, an incumbent, was removed; you lost in your attempt to de-rail the building referendum. You are loosing now in your attempt to sully the fine reputation of an exceptional school district.

Why?

Because people with families chose to move to Naperville, and pay higher prices for homes here, to a large extent because of the schools. The high academic achievement of the students, illustrated by a variety of metrics, the many different programs 203 offers for students of all abilities, (want to debate the Academy program some time?), and the low cost per student compared to other districts, are established facts that people understand and value.

You can throw out all kinds of reckless, unsubstantiated claims, but you are, in these last few posts showing, once again, that you are simply an angry guy who hates paying taxes to support public education because you don’t use it, and who doesn’t care one whit about making an honest argument. It’s why you lost the election, it’s why people don’t believe you, and it’s why you are destroying your credibility with these posts. And your buddy Davitt? he's spending his time on yet another anonymous website spewing his own special brand of hate. After his going on record stating he didn't hate teacher's he despised them, I'm kinda shocked you'd even mention his name.

BTW, I’m still waiting for the name of the honors teacher at Central who told you to send you daughter to Benet because “203 was not the best environment”? Or was that just another of your trademark, "gee I'm backed into a corner, I'll just claim some D203 teacher/administrator said it"?

Message to John Q. Public

From the creation of District 203 until about the yeaer 2000. The District attendence areas were redistricted EVERY YEAR. In the mid 90's when I lived in Green Trails, the entire neighborhood (1/3 of Lisle) were moved from Central to North. My source of this comment (so I do not pull a Caudill) Rudy Carl, the most prestigious school board member of the District's last 30 year history and not one to bend to the union).

So if you tweak the attendance areas of the District (and address issues such as siblings not attending two schools or children being switched in the middle of their school attendance), you could get more efficiencies. You could also avoid the problem that you faced. In fact, my OPINION is that your situation is to reinforce their inability to address the problems.

Also, if you look at the District's attendance maps, there are changes that should be made. For example, their are areas where children could WALK to school, but instead are bussed two schools away. But again, since 2000 (or so), the District has put its head in the sand and does nothing.

Results, by now the District could have closed one elementary school. For $2 to $3 million, they could have remodeled for a early childhood center. Saved the taxpayers $8.5 to $9.5 MILLION. I question the need to maintain Mill Street as the largest school with students being bussed past two schools as well. Higgins will misquote me, but Mill Street needed work, just like the other 19 schools in the District that have not been addressed in the capital plan.

Would Wal Mart use run the schools in this way?

As to Higgins. Thom must live in a different world. None of us knows what has happened in housing values and maybe one of Greenspans largest mistake of making credit too easy, too long. But I focus my comments on the INCREMENTAL impact that taxation places on housing. The rest is irrelevant, including Thom's previous post.

Did we lose the election? Yes. Did our opponents say they were going to match our ideas? Yes. Have they delivered? No. Because we lost, does that mean we cannot raise our voices? No, unless Castro has taken over the US.

Thom, to your questions about the teachers (first time you asked, so you would be waiting forever for a respons), Central hosts a introduction night when you walk through the field house and talk to the teachers. I did not write down, nor did I retain, the people I talked too. Two of the most candid were the Art and English teachers. But they urged us to complain to Paulson and Caudill. I know better than to complain, nothing would have been done in my daughter's time. By the way, when I said that I probably would not take a risk given the attitude that they presented, they were taken back. But then again, 15% of the people in the District select other schools. And my friends who do not want Catholic schools wish they had an alternative as well.

I am glad that they have expanded the Math team at Central after my comments, they took fifth after not being able to participate for 20 years. Also, if you really checked, I think that Leis has fixed the college level math class issue. I think that students who want the college credit are being offerred to be bussed to North to get the qualified teacher. I wonder how many will just stay at Central and take the class without college credit from the unqualified teacher (per COD, not me)?

As an advocate for the public schools, no less with a child in the schools, I am amazed how you would defend the inaction over the last 14 months. It is not my child, but YOURS that is being deprived.

By Thom Higgins on June 25, 2008 11:46 PM
Regarding Dan’s post above,
In fact we had some of the highest yearly increases in values just after the referendum! You well know that is one of the reasons why the taxes went up so much.

Mr. Higgins,

Taxes really don't go up because real estate values increase. They also don't go down because real estate values decrease.

Taxes go up when schools and government have additional expenses over and beyond the prior year. Increased expenses affect taxes and not property values.

Many people believe their taxes will go down this year because their home values went down. They will all be surprised! To compensate for the decline in value the city, county, and school districts jack up the tax RATES!

Taxes can not go down if your home values go down unless the governmental bodies are spending less than last year...very unlikey.

The city of Naperville use to brag about TAX RATES going down...but never TAXES going down. Big difference!

In fact if homes go up 20% in value but city expenses only go up 5%, unless the city reduces the tax rate they will be overtaxing and have excess funds. Tax rate reductions were common occurrences during the boom years. Adding higher priced residential and commercial to the the tax base, was always good for reducing the TAX RATES. Again, I emphasize TAX RATE and not OVERALL TAXES.

I have lived in Naperville for 20 years and my dollar tax went up each and every year with no exceptions even if the TAX RATE was down.

In the last year both the rate and dollar amount were up drastically. That is why you are hearing complaints everywhere on this blog site.

Next year will be a real shocker. Everyone is expecting a tax decrease because their home values went down. Unfortunately, this will not happen and a lot of heat will build on city and school officials.

For the city, I think we will have to see another 20% increase in the overall dollar amount one pays, even though ones house may have declined 20%. With both the school districts, police and firemen needing us taxpayers to put 20% plus in matching funds for at least another 20 years to even put a dent in the serious deficits, taxes are going to shoot though the roof. Many residents will be shocked.

The District 204 section of Naperville will be a much worse bloobath than the District 203 section of town. While District 203 is spending a few hundred dollars more per pupil than District 204, the litigation and infrastructure costs for 204 will be humongous and above and beyond what the it cost to teach each pupil. Those aere extraordinary expenses.

Those 3 high rise parking decks in downtown Naperville scheduled to be built, will also hit our real estate tax bills very hard.

I see nothing but trouble on the horizon. I see District 203 in much better shape than District 204 or the City of Naperville. The City of Naperville is a real mess.

BTW, has Councilman Bob ever gotten back to you! Sure would like to hear what he has to say about these city pensions and starting salaries that appear to be some of the highest in the nation for police and firemen. I sure hope someone on the City Council knows how to negotiate with these unions. It appears they have failed miserably in the past..unless they wanted to deliberately fail since our Mayor, City Manager and Police Chief wanted this outcome since they are all benefitting or soon to be benefitting from these unimaginably excessive retirement pensions.

Recently a Lisle Fireman was promoted to Captain during his retirement celebrations to give him a boost on his retirement pension. If you have any contact with CM Bob, ask him if promotions of Naperville Police and Firemen is also routine right before retirement! All these things are adding up and killing the taxpayer!
What can we do, Mr. Higgins?

PS. I have no affiliation with Dan D. I am simply one of those Napergatians looking for answers! Just thought I would disclose that so you would know where I was coming from!

Dan D wrote:

"In fact, my OPINION is that your situation is to reinforce their inability to address the problems."

I used my situation to point out to you that the district DOES reduce headcount/costs in some situations. That it resulted in larger than desirable class sizes was an unfortunate side effect, but I don't think redistricting was an option here, either, as we are dealing with a situation that affects one grade level at one school.

As to 203 having redistricted EVERY year prior to 2000, with all due respect, I would like further confirmation of this---perhaps some input from some other poster/blogger who had school-age children in 203 during that period.

Jay,

Briefly, Under the PTEL law municipalities are limited to inflation (CPI) increases in taxes. BUT this is calculated on the total EAV of all homes, an individual homeowners taxes can go up more or less than CPI.

The reason your tax rate goes down is because the increase in assessed valuation is higher than the inflation percentage. The lower rate is how they make the adjustment, but it still takes into account the CPI increase, and your taxes still go up in aggregate.

Now, when a school district passes an operating fund referendum, (unlike the recent capital referendum) things get complicated. The tax rate is increased, and 100% of any appreciation is included in the calculation. And because the years after the 2002 referendum were huge years for home appreciation, (contrary Dan Denys), the tax increase was larger then projected. Had homes had a smaller increase in appreciation the tax increases would have been smaller. So, yes, taxes can and do increase due to property value appreciation, either a little (CPI) or a lot (the timing of the 2002 referendum).

The schools operate under PETEL provisions. I'm not sure, but I think that Naperville does not, and so can increase taxes on their portion at will
.
Your assessed valuation is based on the last three years sales, so we wont see a major reduction in valuations if any next year as median sales prices were up last year slightly, and they lag a year with the assessors office I believe. I also believe there is a mechanism that simply allows the tax rate to be adjusted upward, (with limits?) to compensate for any reduction. But again I'm not positive regarding this at all.

As far as your question regarding the Police and Firefighters. I've got about a 100 pages to digest but it seems clear there is a $51 million deficit. My assumption at this point is that due to two factors, namely 1. actuarial changes, lower than expected investment returns, benefit changes,etc. and 2. lack of payments into the system as required, has caused the deficit. Municipalities can borrow from, or not pay into the system as they choose fit. There are some pension systems in the Chicago area that are bankrupt, due to the borrowing of the funds. It remains to be seen which factors are at play here in Naperville.

In the next few days I should be able to get the percentages as it relates to Naperville.

Just got this,

From the MLS through 5-31-08 detached single family homes.

Chicago met area. -8.6%
Naperville -2.9%
Joliet -2%
Downers -7.2%
Wheaton -5.9%
Glen Ellyn + 10.7%
Lake Forrest -22.9%

Guess we better all move to Glen Ellyn, and call freddiemac and tell them to get Lake Forrest on Dan's watch list, instead of Naperville. Must be those high property taxes that is killing them!

Jay,

I've been thinking about your original comment regarding taxes not going up or down due to property value changes.

While it does make a difference during the period that an operating referendum is open, (which can be up to 5 years), and which was what I was referencing above, during the rest of the time, is it really only the CPI that comes into effect raising our taxes, and the total EAV only comes into effect as a part of the equation with the tax rate, as the mathematical equation that factors in the CPI increase?

Move to Texas. By the year 2050 Texas is projected to have 50 million people. Illinois is dying a slow painful death along with, Iowa, Wisconsin, Michigan, Indiana, and Ohio. The state has a 10.7 Billion surplus this year ALONE!!! Jobs are plentiful. Taxes low, unions have little pull. It's the best of all worlds.

http://www.wallis.rochester.edu/WallisPapers/wallis_10.pdf

Class size does not matter all that much. Read the above paper.

Regarding the post by Dan D on June 26, 2008 9:18 AM

Well, there you go again, so many falsehoods that I probably wont get to them all, but for starters, will you please let us know your specific school closing-redistricting plan based on 203’s actual decline in enrollment, rather than the 10% you erroneously claim? Enrollment is projected to decline by 10% by 2017. It hasn’t already declined 10% . So are we to believe you are what? being proactive by 9 years and closing down an elementary school now so we will be ready in 2017? Seriously, give us specifics, what is the current capacity at the various schools today, which school closes, what’s the current enrollment at that school, where will they go, etc. The parents of that school, as well as the others would love to hear about it.

Regarding this As to Higgins. Thom must live in a different world. None of us knows what has happened in housing values…...

Oh? Now none of us know what has happened to housing values? What happened to your sources telling you how Naperville has been put on a watch list for declining home prices, or your mortgage broker source with his computer screens? Or better yet, your constant whine that Naperville property values were highest before the 2002 referendum as displayed in your own words here?As Mike D. has always stated and I implied in my last post, the schools were always fine before the massive tax increases. THAT IS WHEN REAL ESTATE VALUES WERE THE HIGHEST. THAT IS WHEN WE RECEIVED THE MOST VALUE FOR OUR TAX DOLLARS.

I guess it depends on what your definition of “Highest” is, Seriously, please stop talking out of both sides of your mouth, it’s tiring to follow.

Regarding thisDid we lose the election? Yes. Did our opponents say they were going to match our ideas? Yes. Have they delivered? No. Because we lost, does that mean we cannot raise our voices? No, unless Castro has taken over the US.

Have they delivered? You betcha! Here’s the link to the latest report to the community by 203. http://www.naperville203.org/assets/ReportToCommunity.pdf

Let’s see;

ISAT scores @ the 94% percentile.
Highest overall state test scores for large unit school districts in Illinois.
Eight schools earned the ISBE’s Academic Excellence Award
54 National Merit finalists, class 2007
47 national Merit semifinalists class 2008 6% of the state total with 1% of the state enrollment.
Our two high schools in the top 2-3% nationally as reported by USN&WR
Per the extensive Daily herald study; 2nd. highest test scores, 16th lowest cost per student, Total revenue 25.6% lower than the average school district, with administrative costs 41.9% lower than the average district.

And there’s much more, see pages 8-9 of the report.

And all Dan Denys can do is go on, and on, and on about how supposedly 15% of all Naperville students chose to go elsewhere because of the poor quality of the education 203 offers. It’s laughable, as are his claims that two Central teachers, (gee I didn’t get their names!) were openly critical of the district and their school at an open house for prospective parents. Sure, we all believe that one. His comment regarding raising his voice? What an apt metaphor. One would hope for an honest expression of ideas from him, instead we get him howling at the moon. Dan, you have every right to express yourself. However, you deserve to be mocked for your complete and absolute mendacity.

Lastly this,

I am glad that they have expanded the Math team at Central after my comments, they took fifth after not being able to participate for 20 years. Also, if you really checked, I think that Leis has fixed the college level math class issue. I think that students who want the college credit are being offered to be bussed to North to get the qualified teacher. I wonder how many will just stay at Central and take the class without college credit from the unqualified teacher (per COD, not me)?

As an advocate for the public schools, no less with a child in the schools, I am amazed how you would defend the inaction over the last 14 months. It is not my child, but YOURS that is being deprived.

When will you ever stop pushing the canard that Centrals math program is somehow substandard on the basis of one lousy Ap Multivariable Calculus class? There is absolutely nothing that needed to be “fixed” it's all in your mind. What's the big deal about parents and students requesting the class to be taught at Central in addition to North? If they wanted to get dual credit at COD they were bussed to North. Frankly many didn’t bother because COD isn’t the be all, end all, in this matter, and most would rather stay with Mr. Braun who’s student’s AP scores for Calc BC are possibly the best in the state. Pretty amazing results for someone you are claiming COD considers an unqualified teacher.

Since you are always harping about saving money you should applaud the fact that Central bussed students to North for some 15 years in order to save on costs. Of course in past years the class size was smaller making this practical. Additionally, as you well know, and conveniently forget to mention, some Central and North Students take the class with Dr. Wilders at North Central College.

What makes your argument regarding dual credit so very dishonest is, as you are undoubtedly aware, not all universities accept dual credit courses; consequently, many NCHS students elect to take this course at their home school. The major colleges that these students go to often do not accept any dual credit courses that are taught in high schools (schools like Harvard, Yale, Northwestern and more). So the dual credit is really of little value in those cases.

And of course if you can get your mind off this one class for one moment you might be interested in knowing that during the 2007-08 school year, there were 948 registrants at NCHS for semester courses for which dual credit was offered, although the interesting question is how many students actually had those credits ultimately transfer.

Let’s also not forget Sharon Fischer, mathematics teacher at Naperville Central High School, has just been selected as a winner of the Edyth May Sliffe Award for Distinguished High School Mathematics Teaching. Mrs. Fischer is one of 23 teachers selected by the Mathematics Association of America from all high schools in the United States and Canada for this international recognition. For the record 7 D203 teachers have a combined 10 Stiffe awards.

And lets not forget this;

In both 2003 and 2007, two students from NCHS qualified for the prestigious United States of America Mathematical Olympiad, and in 2008 a sophomore and freshman qualified as two of the top 56 students in the nation for the same event. The NCHS math team won the Illinois Mathematics League Competition in 2006. The 2008 All Star Math Team included 5 Central students out of a total of 31, the largest number form any school.

What this all adds up to is far from being deprived, my children, along with some 18,000 others, enjoy the benefits of attending one of the top school districts in the nation.

You can continue to go on and on endlessly with your fabrications, and misstatements, and perhaps it’s good that you do. Your words only serve to illustrate to the community your complete mendacity, condemning you for what you are. A fraud.

The start of this blog was real estate taxes. I will restate my two relevant points.

1. Taxes were a fair value even with the $511 increase. The reckless extra $700 that keeps on growing has hurt property values, incrementally. As had many other factors such as the loss of jobs particularly Lucent, competition from other areas, and the continued decline of the Illinois economy as jobs continue to shift to the south. Illinois has a $2 billion deficit, Texas a $10 billion surplus.

2. Lack of attention will only compound problems.

To Thom's previous comments.

1. The bully is back. I am a fraud. Just state your point or move to Iraq. Bullies are welcomed there (and not for the Coalition side).

2. Enrollment. Thom, go get the numbers. I am not going to go into depth, the District should do that. Enrollment has fallen by 1,000 in the three years that have just been completed. The District's projections show another 1,000 drop in the next three years. Further review shows this happening at the elementary level, it is working its way through the grade levels. In a macro basis, this would allow at least one school through the entire district to be closed, possibly two. All of the inner ring suburbs experienced this situation. My district closed six out of ten schools. Just as the District added schools from 1972 to 2,000, they could take them away. The money could be used to implement more progams, I am fine with that. But to simply waste money (that is my opinion) on maintaining the status quo (extra principals, support teachers, etc) because of some parent complaints reflects poor stewardship. Look at Lisle, they have empty schools they do not use. The students were educated. Your 18,000 number I believe is wrong.

3. For all the ranting about the Math, my two points stand. Further, I am glad that 5 studnents from Central made the All Star Math team, I think it is a great program and Central did not participate in this program either until I made it an issue, add it to my list. I will say it again, the deficiencies in the Central math program have been eliminated after 20 years.

As to the teachers, why not get their advanced work in math so they can become qualified? If you are going to pay more for a masters, it should be a content masters rather than education. Again, my opinion. Would it be that such masters are harder? Maybe higher pay for advanced degrees should be evaluated--TEACHERS CONTRACT!!!!

4. I raised your comments about the dual education. I suggested that schools address make sure the cirriculum matches college's "requirements." I told this to Leis, specifically mentioning Purdue that had a thorough program, let alone Harvard, Yale, MIT, etc. 204 is addressing this issue with Frontier. By the way, my daughter received a semesters worth of credit as well as advanced standing in more classes, but again, she went to Benet.

5. There has to be something wrong if a student is taking a college level course and does not want credit, no matter how "good" the teachers are. That is a real disconnect. If the college admissions people knew about this, those students would be rejected (at the highly competitive colleges).

6. The comments from the teachers to me gave a general impression of the school. Their comments are that 203 was geared for the average student. Specifically, you have to take an industrial arts class and you could not substitute a fine arts class. Another interesting comment from someone in 203, "You give your children a choice?" HECK YES, they had three choices for high school and I would give them others (such as the emergence of Wheaton Academy as a good conservative school where top Republicans in Naperville send their children rather than the public schools--check it out--or Marmiom) if they wanted it. But again, I believe in choice and competition, it makes for better institutions. That is in clear contrast to the liberal position.

IN SUMMATION

I have never said that Central was an inferior school. But any instituion can improve. So can Benet (and the teachers and staff know it, they are upgrading the science program--bulding will be done in the fall). And even the math. Look at 204. In fact, after going through educating one child, I have first hand experience. And unlike many parents, care.

I should also note that when I looked at moving my children to public school at the elementary level, I was told that they did not have a comparable program. Further, I discovered that the schools do not track students except for the 2% in the PI plus and some "pullouts". I was tracked in my blue collar, lower middle class school as a child. Frankly, I was taken back.

With 100 to 125 students at each grade level in most Naperville schools, there has to be a wide range of abilities. It must be very difficult to teach such a wide level. However, rather than outright criticize the schools, I would ask that this policy be evaluated and debated in the public. I could be cynical and say that it makes teachers less accountable, but I will respect that not to be the case. And maybe the District can offer both types of education, those with tracking for those parents and the current "one size fits all" who don't want their child singled out. Typically a large district can offer options that would appeal to the constituency.

I noted that my old high school has not advanced even though in the 70's it offered programs that only New Trier and Evanston offered. Is it the leadership? Could it be that with the influx of Muslim and Hispanics the public schools have given up and let students go to public schools?

There was an article that cited research that under No Child Left Behind, the bottom 25% of students (based on ability) have dramatically increased their test scores, but the top 25% have not. If your children are in the top 25%, I would be concerned. What are the statistics in 203?

To restate, the District spends plenty of money, I would look for how it could be improved. Never sit back on your laurels. And to your retort about private education, the 15% is high, you typically see that in areas like Bloom Township where the public schools are lower quality (and racially balanced). Even in Chicago, students are opting for public schools--in fact, they are being criticized for the magnet schools. In fact, the magnet schools have forced the closure of many private schools.

What was particularly galling was how Caudill treated Dan Deny's at the candidate forum at Central High School. I was there and witnessed it. It was the most unprofessional thing I'd ever seen in my life. I was not surprised when Caudill was busted for plagarizing. The union hacks will do anything to protect their turf.

Mr. Higgins,

Why are you obsessed with Dan D?

Can't you just ignore him!

I suspect he likes to light you up.

Why don't you go to Centennial Beach with the kids and have some fun instead of writing encyclopedias everyday that no one reads but Dan D.

Or maybe you guys can exchange e-mails and spare us your craziness by going at it privately instead of publicly!

It is completely out of control.

I am sure Host Ted has better things to do than read your new chapters day and night.

Have you heard from Councilman Bob, Mr. Higgins. You promised you would follow up on Monday. That would be something much more interesting than lowering yourself to Dan D's level every day. Just ignore him!

Thank you.

Dan D wrote:

"There was an article that cited research that under No Child Left Behind, the bottom 25% of students (based on ability) have dramatically increased their test scores, but the top 25% have not. If your children are in the top 25%, I would be concerned."

No Child Left Behind is specifically targeted at students on the lower tiers of the performance spectrum, so this is not really surprising.

For Anonymous on June 27, 2008 12:13 PM

I have been in touch with Councilmen Fieseler, and made this short post a day or two ago.

As far as your question regarding the police and Firefighters. I've got about a 100 pages to digest but it seems clear there is a $51 million deficit. My assumption at this point is that due to two factors, namely 1. actuarial changes, lower than expected investment returns, benefit changes,etc. and 2. lack of payments into the system as required, has caused the deficit. Municipalities can borrow from, or not pay into the system as they choose fit. There are some pension systems in the Chicago area that are bankrupt, due to the borrowing of the funds. It remains to be seen which factors are at play here in Naperville.

I can provide this link for you http://www.iml.org/dcps/docreturn.cfm?searchby=doccatid&searchid=17

It is a report from the Illinois Municipal League containing their fiscal analysis of the police and firefighter pensions. It will get you started, but realize that the 21% contribution includes a certain percentage of "make up" funding as the pension system by law now has to be fully funded by 2033. Pretty funny that the state is mandating that for municipalities, but is letting itself slide to 2045 for the state pension system, and then requiring only 90% funding. You gotta love it.

I've skimmed through it and for the moment my hunch above still stands, with an interesting addition. Namely the effect of the PTEL on pension contributions. Looks like the cap limited the amount of contribution growth thereby possible causing a forced underpayment into the fund.

As I have indicated regarding the teachers/state pension system, the key question is which factors contributed what percentage of the deficit? Same holds true for the police and firefighters.

Realize that Naperville has zero ability to change the pension program or its benefits. It is decided at the state level. Same with the teachers pension.

A couple of thoughts for you, and all anonymous posters. If you want to be part of the conversation I would urge you to use your name as I do, or at least something that identifies your posts from the sea of other anonymous posters.

Second, and I don't know if you consider yourself a Napergatian, but as there is a lot of referencing to "them" whoever they are, I suggest you/they get yourselves organized, create a website and do some research on these issues to post, and for people to use as a reference. Posting on the blog here gets lost. You can also post links to the website in your comments or create a hot link with your name. Click on mine and you will see what I mean.

Lastly, I've been involved with municipal and school issues for quite a while and my only suggestion is to, be honest in your comments, do you homework, and make your case. I will also say you will not get far if you come across as wanting to burn down city hall and tar and feather council.

With regards to Dan Denys; It's a colossal waste of my time, but what you might not be aware of is he, along with ex school board member Mike Davitt teamed up with a third person and attempted to take over the school board in 2007. These are people who do not believe in public education, and want vouchers to help pay for it. They aren't interested in improving public education. Absent people like me and QE203.org, they might have succeeded and we could have been a national laughing stock like that school district out east. Wonder what that would have done for Naperville's reputation and housing values.

I was struck at Denys comments today regarding leading Republicans sending their kids to the Wheaton Academy. What an incredibly telling statement. That in a nut shell is what both he and Davitt want.That's what they mean by school choice. If you read all their previous posts you will see that they are uber-partisians who want to segregate their kids from the "liberal" rif-raf, and send them to a school with their own kind, that will teach them what they want them to learn. I thought we got over that in the 60's, apparently not. Denys who has the financial ability has plunked $300K down for private schools. Davitt uses the public schools, and he's seethes over having to do so.

And as they both, shall we say, take liberties with the truth, someone has to truth squad them, and it's come down to me. Wish I could get paid by the word.

Regarding Dan Deny’s post of 6-27-08 at 8:57 Am

Regarding your statement here; Your 18,000 number I believe is wrong.

If you go to the ISBE report card for D203 it states that enrollment for 2007 was 18, 449. In conversation with a school board member recently I was told it is 18,600 this year. I do remember some talk about the demographers estimate for this year being off so perhaps we actually went up 150 students. Regardless enrollment stood at 18, 449 last year. Surprised eh?

You really need to give up your fantasy regarding you having any impact on Centrals math program. The only deficiency is your logic.

You also need to give up on this silly claim of all except the top 2% being lumped together in a classroom. You apparently don’t know what enrichment programs are as opposed to PI/Honors classes. Or the Academy program in high school, or the one on one help offered for those that are struggling. And of course all this require additional space and additional staff. Where do you expect these classes to be taught, and by whom, if you are so intent on closing schools and laying off teachers? Your macro argument lacks even the most fundamental logic. This is where 203 is going, look at the projected budget and you will see additional staff for these positions being allocated. Which you cause you to then complain about staff levels not falling.

I mentioned it above, but your comment regarding good Republicans sending their kids to Wheaton Academy is so very telling of exactly how you view education. Good forbid your Republican children be required to rub shoulders with the riffraff. Simply one of your more amazing statements.

And you comment about Texas? Please, Texas is a joke. You have teachers being fired for taking kids on a field trip to a public museum where they saw GASP! Nude statues! And who can forget the Science Curriculum Director fired for talking about Evolution.
http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2007/12/texas-science-c.html

And then there is the scandal regarding drop out rates, remember Bush campaigning on the Texas Miracle? Turns out it was the Texas Fib!
http://www.ccebos.org/nytimes.texas_zero_dropout_rate.8.13.03.htm

Or take a look at this recap on Texas education by the state comptroller
http://www.window.state.tx.us/comptrol/wwstand/wws0512ed/

You would have to be crazy to trade D203 schools for Texas public schools although I'm sure there are some good ones. But of course their taxation in quite low, and that’s all that matters to you.

"Realize that Naperville has zero ability to change the pension program or its benefits. It is decided at the state level. Same with the teachers pension."

This is not entirely true. Naperville and District 203 DO have something to say about the final salary of police officers and teachers, which certainly impacts pension benefits.

John Q.

I take you point, but what I was trying to express is that Naperville or D203 can not change the pension program or the benefits that program provides. There has been quite a lot of talk in the blog about Naperville reining in police and firefighters salaries and I think pensions too.

So, my point was to let people know that the state sets the pension program, not the municipality.

On another topic, if anyone is still thinking of moving to Texas I offer this,

http://shapleigh.org/system/news_article/document/882/Texas_on_the_Brink_2007_Final.pdf

Let's go back to Ted's original point of the blog. TAXES. And I will say what I have consistently said for the last five years.

1. Tax for what you need, do not overtax (Now at over $100 million and enough for each household to pay for one year of private education.

2. Work to stretch the tax dollar to do more. If more money is needed to improve education and government services, make the case. BUT DO NOT LIE TO THE TAXPAYERS. Clearly the case in $511, I feel strongly that the capital program was a fraud. I had a problem with a firm getting paid $300,000 plus for not doing what they were hired to do. Coincidentally, the District fired them (that is what I call hiring a new firm after 20 years of using the other firm).

John Q. Public

I agree that was the intent of No Child Left Behind. But do you stand still for the other students? In a community like Naperville?

Higgins

LIES

"These are people who do not believe in public education, and want vouchers to help pay for it. They aren't interested in improving public education." Where was this said? These are patent lies.

As to education, 203 (and all American schools) should challenge themselves to do more. Just like American industry. Big deal, best in an area. Remember Jaensch's comment, his children were TWO YEARS ahead of their peers when they entered 203. When I looked to move to public schools, they said they did not offer comparable programs (in contrast to Hinsdale, Oak Brook, Glen Ellyn, and CHICAGO).

And it is not for the brightest children. Remember, a significant number of students are being socially promoted, they are not in the bottom, but they have future failures. Did you know if you failed junior high core courses, there is no summer school option to get to your grade level?

Lastly, Higgins in his comments said to implement these improvements (he seems to be acknowledging that it is a change), there would need to be an expansion of classroom spaces. HE ALSO SAYS THAT POSITIONS ARE BEING ADDED TO DO WHAT I ADVOCATE (I thought no change was needed)--MORE SPENDING.

This is not needed. Simple concept. Today, students at each grade level are dispersed by ability. Instead, others in education, including the public schools I attended advocate grouping students by ability. If there are 100 students at a grade level, the classes would continue to have 25 students in each class. Difference, the classes would have people grouped by their ability. No new classrooms, no additional teachers.

Thom alludes to the "enrichment" programs. I am told that these are the "pull out" programs. A group of students are taken from their regular classes and given an alternative instruction. Besides being disruptive, these programs require extra space (they are part of the cause of the Mill Street school overcrowding) and MORE TEACHERS. Grouping students by ability might result in FEWER teachers.

Let me pose a question? If the one size fits all educational policy (no tracking) is the best way to educate, why the pull outs? Seems to be a contradiction. Are these talented students being held back in the other subjects?

I chose not to risk my children's education in this structure. MY CHOICE. There was nothing I can do about it. I do not have all of the answers, but I also notice in the last five years of observing the Board, I have not seen this issue debated. And I know people (not just Taxpayer Ticket supporters) who do not like this system.

On the other hand, the most vocal supporters also happen to be the most LIBERAL people I have encountered. They oppose grades (not just rankings), they feel that smart people should be held back until lower students catch up. They want all excelling students to be treated like Kurt Vonnegut's Harrison Bergeron. Remember Barbara Herr's comments, all opportunities should be based on a lottery, private school admissions, selection for sports teams, etc. I will defer to others who know what extreme left wing groups she participates along with Thom.

By the way Thom, the Academy at both high schools are NOT for gifted students, another special education program for students who cannot function in a regular high school setting. Good idea, but reinforces my opinion, resources for the top 2% and the bottom 10%.

ENROLLMENT

I will simply conclude with this comment. The union (when their materials were available on the internet--not to swift--trust them with your children--ok, cheap shot) was seeking a guaranteed MINIMUM number of positions in that last minute contract extension. Why? Because enrollment decreases to date and expected (FROM THEM--they are the closest to this issue) were going to decline. Their initial concern was that they had to increase their dues significantly due to lower membership in order to give Griffith his pay increase. (It is always about the money).

I look at declining enrollment as an OPPORTUNITY. The District can use the extra space and MONEY to make improvements that are long overdue--longer elementary class day, foreign language IN ALL SCHOOLS, there must be more WITHOUT A TAX INCREASE. They can also continue to provide reasonable salary increases as the MARKET would support. They are implementing a test foreign language program, why not also offer an alternative program for those people who what their children challenged starting in kindergarten (the 3% to the 25% or more)?

Instead, this opportunity looks to be squandered. And before Thom blabbers, the District knows the numbers, they could post them on the web site. They can track them to the demographic study. The one flaw to that study is that it assumes that the number of entry students (kindergarten or first grade) will level off, our demographics do not support this. By the way, this is the one criticism of the District's demographer. Why doesn't the District just track the information, would be VERY USEFUL in planning.

RESULTS

I think that our efforts have paid off. The District did not take the EXTRA $7.5 million, resulting in savings to taxpayers of $30 million to date. The plan to pay for the first years of the $43 million in debt from the operating budget would have NEVER occurred if we had not remained vigilant. Remember, the UNION IS LOOKING TO TAKE MORE. Why else would they have funded PURE and the current school board members?

For all of Thom's ranting about the Math program, I will repeat. My actions have allowed 5 people to participate in the All Star Math, Central to take 5th in the main Chicago math competition, and students to have an OPTION to take advance math classes AND get credit. POSITIVE CHANGE. But again, too late for my one child and the change occurred after plans were made for my other. Also, if 5 qualified this year, imagine the 100 or so that have been deprived of this opportunity in th past? What other opportunities are overlooked?

So to Anonymous June 27, 2008 at 12:15 PM, this is not about Higgins. This is about you and others. And Thom really misses the point. This District was sent out of control by Don Weber. Prior to him coming to 203, he destroyed the Lockport High School system. 203 was run by a very conservative, conscientious educator prior to Weber's arrival. In fact, to frugal. It costs less to offer less, that is a problem. Too bad the Board sold the Naper Boulevard third school site, I SUPPORT a new high school to replace Central, at a suitable site not where it is (there are 60 acres nearby in Lisle that is available, Meier is no longer expanding).

But Weber sold the District out to the unions to keep his job. Simple, the balance between the administration and the workers (yes, that is what teachers are just like all of us on our jobs) was sold out. Why do you think Albus left town (he still can't sell his house for 70 cents on the dollar by the way)? And Leis was hired by the union controlled board, I think he wants balance, but he likes his pay check more.

And to Higgins, he exploits small issues to divert attention away from the big picture. Look at his pension comments, the state is only paying 6%. Now it's the fault of not funding. Never once that maybe the benefits are too generous and not actuarial sound? Ok, we over committed and underfunded, but IF we honored our commitment TO DATE and replaced the programs to be comparable to what the rest of us get, we have a chance for paying for them without major tax increases. Or let's just increase taxes as Thom advocates. And John Q is correct, if we do not increase teachers salaries by 7% (yes, that is the average, still waiting for the details from 203), the pension costs will not materialize.

Like the pension blog, I think this one is done. But I promise, there is more to come!!!!!!!!!

Thom,

The city can reduce pension costs by 33.33% by starting cops at 40k instead of 60k. Your pension is based on your salary.

Since these pensions are based on the salary a cop received the last day he worked we need to make sure there are no bumps like in Lisle with Captain Fireman Kurt at his farewall party and in some school districts.

Benefits such as health insurance are completely controlled by Naperville. According to state law, Naperville can pay none, pay some or pay all. Since we can not control pensions except through controlling salaries, we should take the health insurance money and dump it into the pension fund instead of using taxpayer money in excess of 10%. We could make the cops buy their own health insurance.

But we can really control pensions by going to state rule where we could not increase taxes by the lower of the CPI index or 5%. We have been or should have been paying between 18% to 28% per cent in matching funds for police pensions since 1984. We have been or should have been paying between 23% to 33% per cent for firemen pensions since 1984.

And yes we are underfunded $50.5 million. It seems like we need to file bankrupty or get ready to pay 84% in matching funds for the next decade or two.

We have 200 cops making an average say of 80k. They are contributing about 10%. The city is contributing about 20%. Thus the total ANNUAL contribution is $4,800,000.

We may have about 200 retired Naperville cops who are expected to live till 81 and collect pension for 30 years.

Each retired cop making 100k on his last day on the job needs 75k. Thus we need $15,000,000 a year to support these 200 retired cops who are expected to live from ages 51 to 81. They also get 3% raises per year during retirement. And they continue getting full health and life as they get older. Health insurance is much more expensive for older people thus our costs for health insurance are out of this world.

So if we are only collecting $4.8 million a year from cops and taxpayers, how can we pay $15 million a year to retired cops without falling behind. And yes we fell behind to the tune of 51 million for both police and fire! And we will continue falling behind.

The taxpayers need to pay in 84% of matching funds to supplemant the 10% provided by the police if we are going to break even year in and year out!

Investments from the prior fund money has not been there to help. They expected 7% in 2000-2002 from the stock market but got a large NEGATIVE PER CENT. The investments really have provided nothing since the turn of the century.

And sadly in 1999 right before the bubble collapse, our state legislators in Springfield increased and sweetened police and fire pensions making today's crisis even worse.

The actuaries for the State of Illinois are incompetent. They used all the wrong numbers and planned on a 7% return and now admit there was no 7% return.

I think we need to spearhead a movement back to state rule. Be limited in the funds we can get from taxpayers and thus be forced to file bankruptcy.

If we file bankrupty the police and fireman get zero for pension in retirement. Their union leadership got greedy and the saying does say pigs get fat, and hogs get slaughtered. If I were the Naperville Police Union, I would come back to the table and renegotiate immediately starting with starting salaries and elminiate all health benefits so those can be plowed in the pension system. Maybe with some luck we can get them 25-50% of their pensions if we don't file bankruptcy.

But the current situation is simply not sustainable. Both City Officials and State Officials are clueless. If they had a clue we would not be in this mess.

The State of Illinois has the highest pension deficit of all 50 states. I believe about 48 BILLION. Greed will always come back and bite you in the butt. The taxpayers need to wake up or pay 84% in matching funds for police and fireman in coming years....each and every year. That would have the effect of almost doubling our taxes.

Please wake up taxpayer and vote early next year. The State Legislature is as corrupt and crooked as they come and have given themselves pensions better than even the police or firemen. Can anyone beleive this racket in the State of Illinois?!?

___________________________________________________________________

PS. I estimated my numbers after reading the 51 page Illinois Municipal Report on Pensions. I also wrote from my memory without referring to the report to get this synopsis done quickly. I did not PLAGIARIZE. I can tell you all one thing....we got our work cut out for us if we plan on putting an end to our corrupt government.

Dan D. wrote:

"I agree that was the intent of No Child Left Behind. But do you stand still for the other students? In a community like Naperville?"

Of course I do. But by just about any measure, District 203, at least, does a great job of educating those other students.

Blake,

Very well spoken. Sweeting pension deals in 1999, selling out to the teachers union to keep one's job, lying to the voters.

Then people like Thom stand up for such deceit.

We should be fair, but the greed has overcome these groups. You are totally correct--GREED.

Voters need to wake up and throw these people out of office.

And I agree, the State should declare bankruptcy. We cannot afford the $1 billion needed to fund teachers benefits today, we definitely cannot afford the $2 billion that is "needed" in 2010 (ONE BUDGET YEAR AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Look what happened in Michigan when they just increased taxes. Total receipts went down--the deficit is more than when they raised taxes. Don't you think companies will move operations to other states where taxes are lower? The predecessors to BP paid significant taxes to Illinois and Ohio, now those revenue streams are recorded in Texas, you know they shift income to the states where the taxes are lower.

Last guy out turn off the lights--OOPS--better leave them on for the pensioners and let the electric company disconnect the power. Iowa loses most of their smartest young people every year, looks like Illinois wants to out do them.

Dan D wrote:

"Today, students at each grade level are dispersed by ability. Instead, others in education, including the public schools I attended advocate grouping students by ability. If there are 100 students at a grade level, the classes would continue to have 25 students in each class. Difference, the classes would have people grouped by their ability. No new classrooms, no additional teachers.

"Thom alludes to the 'enrichment' programs. I am told that these are the 'pull out' programs. A group of students are taken from their regular classes and given an alternative instruction. Besides being disruptive, these programs require extra space (they are part of the cause of the Mill Street school overcrowding) and MORE TEACHERS. Grouping students by ability might result in FEWER teachers.

"Let me pose a question? If the one size fits all educational policy (no tracking) is the best way to educate, why the pull outs? Seems to be a contradiction. Are these talented students being held back in the other subjects?"

Dan, this is a very complex issue. From what I understand, there is a lot of disagreement in the educational establishment about tracking. There are strong arguments both for and against. District 203, through its enrichment programs, has opted for a more targeted approach, which has the advantage of offering students a more challenging curriculum in those specific subject areas where they have shown a more advanced ability. You can agree or disagree with the wisdom of this approach, but unless you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that your way is unequivocally superior, and that the District 203 powers that be have their head in the sand, why not just resign yourself to respectfully disagreeing? This is not a black and white issue.

Blake wrote:

"Investments from the prior fund money has not been there to help. They expected 7% in 2000-2002 from the stock market but got a large NEGATIVE PER CENT. The investments really have provided nothing since the turn of the century.

"And sadly in 1999 right before the bubble collapse, our state legislators in Springfield increased and sweetened police and fire pensions making today's crisis even worse.

"The actuaries for the State of Illinois are incompetent. They used all the wrong numbers and planned on a 7% return and now admit there was no 7% return."

I don't know that this is so much a problem of actuarial incompetence as it is allowing the state and local governments to vary their contributions according to budgetary constraints and the actuarial projections. The government's pension contribution should not be treated as a separate line item from the rest of employee compensation, and should not be allowed to rise or, especially, fall according to the current state of the pension plans' portfolios. If the government were required to kick in 8-10 percent EVERY year, the plans would be in much better shape. Of course, we also need to eliminate the practice of giving out-sized raises and promotions right before an employee retires. Maybe a retiree's pension should be based on average pay over the last five or ten years of his career rather than on final salary.

-JQP

Regarding Dan Denys post of June 28, 2008 10:37 AM

Briefly, Dan you can talk all you want about all the things you claim are wrong about D203’s curriculum, and how you know so much better, but the fact of the matter is you have zero credibility on the subject. If half of what you claim was true D203 would never be able to achieve the following;

From the repost to the community, http://www.naperville203.org/assets/ReportToCommunity%2Epdf

To the school year highlights,
http://www.naperville203.org/assets/highlights%2Epdf

To the extensive analysis I did of the various studies,
http://www.qualityeducation203.org/20080205referendum/costperformance_mediasurvey.shtml

The objective person will come away after reading all this with the understanding that D203 excels at helping our kids achieve academically, and in extracurricular activities, and does it for a lot less than other school districts. Your pompous attitude that you are a greater expert than seemingly the entire school board, administrative, and teaching staff, is megalomaniac in its scope, and pathetic when you compare your charges to the reality of what this district achieves.

You really don’t understand how you have destroyed your credibility on thee pages by your constant lying. At some point I will go back into the blog archive and pull out your “greatest hits” for Qe203’s website.

I mean who could forget you taking an ISBE Fire Safety standard and cutting and pasting it so you could try to convince people that the per student square foot standard for a class room was 16 sq. ft., rather than being the minimum that allows safe exit?

Or your specialty, the Denys “FULL CAPSY FURRY” when you went on and on and on about how D203 wasted all this money on the Healey Bender report. Asking over and over again WHERES THE MASTER FACILITIES PLAN!!!!!

It took me schlepping to the administrative offices to take pictures of the report binders, thousands of pages taking up 4 to 5 feet on a bookshelf to stop that little charade.

Or my personal favorite. You took your very own post regarding classroom size, and changed it for a later post to argue the exact opposite position. Talk about talking out of both sides of your mouth!

And speaking of talking out of both sides of your mouth. Do you really think that anyone actually believes you when you say you support a new Central at the Meijer site? After the thousands of word you wrote in this blog about the rebuilt Central being too expensive; a “Taj Mahal” you called it. So how do you go from going on and on about $89 million, but $140 million for a new school including land costs you’re OK with? Sure you are.

And all your bloviating about Centrals math program is sure to become a classic. For all of Thom's ranting about the Math program, I will repeat. My actions have allowed 5 people to participate in the All Star Math, Central to take 5th in the main Chicago math competition, and students to have an OPTION to take advance math classes AND get credit.

Your actions? Dan, for the record, you have had zero effect on the operations of D203. Zero, Zilch, Nada. That goes double for the math department. If you think that anyone would listen to you after all the false, hateful things you have said in the past…. well, you really do have an ego the size of Montana.

It would be helpful to explain to the readers here when Barbara Herr became a school board member or administrator because your recent quotes such as this puzzles me. Remember Barbara Herr's comments, all opportunities should be based on a lottery, private school admissions, selection for sports teams, etc. I will defer to others who know what extreme left wing groups she participates along with Thom.

She is a parent of a 203 student. I have never meet her, I’ve never seen what you are claiming she wrote before, and pray tell, what extreme left wing groups do I participate in?

Be nice for you to show the readers where I advocate for this too; Or let's just increase taxes as Thom advocates.

Lastly this;
LIES…. "These are people who do not believe in public education, and want vouchers to help pay for it. They aren't interested in improving public education." Where was this said? These are patent lies.

Patent lies, Dan? Please spare us. You who has plunked down 300 large on your children’s private school education, who goes on and on about property taxes destroying Naperville, who ran with a school board member that in this very blog said “He didn’t hate teachers, he despised them”? You support public education? Couple all of the above with the content of your Taxpayers Ticket web site, not to mention Davitt’s couple of anonymous hate filled websites, the fact that not only you send both your children to private schools, but your other running mate did to for the most part, the fact that you constantly use every sleazy trick in the book, attempting to damage D203’s reputation, truth be damned, all the while you are extolling Benet and now Wheaton Academy’s for those who want to rub shoulders with the “top Republican families”. You really expect anyone to think that you are some kind of advocate for public education? No one is that stupid, it’s self evident for anyone who wants to read your posts, you want to dismantle public education, and replace it with vouchers, so more of your ilk can send their kids to the “right kind of schools.” That’s all this is about.

For Blake,

I have my hands full with education issues, (although the pension issue is transferable to the fire fighters and police), so I’m going to watch your conversations rather then engage, but I will offer a few thoughts,

It all depends whether what is posted here is just talk, or you, with others plan on organizing and trying to effect change. If it’s the latter you need to realize that you have staked out some pretty extreme positions; lowering salaries 30%, removing heath benefit coverage payment. Declaring bankruptcy and stiffing the police. etc.

While you and a few others may be ready to enact the above, I will say with a metaphysical certainty that Naperville “ain’t ready for that extreme type of reform”

So, you have sorta two choices, you can go to the wall with your beliefs, and be rejected totally, or you can engage and work at the margins to help chip away at the problem. I’ve been active in municipal issues for some time and I can tell you, absent you doing the impossible, namely getting 5 new city council members elected who share your views, you will not get one vote on council for your ideas listed above. That’s just the way it is.

I say this as someone who has very real concerns regarding the over-development in the downtown area, and who has both won and lost before council. Do I think some of the decisions were disastrous? Yes, but you can’t take it personally, or make it personal and still work with them in the future. There is a specific councilmen that I can all but guarantee will disagree with me on development issues. However, he is a great guy, his door is always open to me, I like and respect him, and I appreciate hearing his views, even if I do want to lock him in his office before some votes!

So, while you may not agree with them, I will say that the council and staff are honorable people trying to do the right thing. They are all immensely proud of Naperville, and their role in running city government.

Realize if you organize you need a website, you have to do all of the research and homework so you understand the topic and can converse intelligently, and you have to be respectful to city staff and council. Absent that you will get nowhere.

Which is where Denys and Davitt went so totally wrong with D203. Even if you are willing to suspend belief and stipulate they really wanted to be a positive force.(Snort!) Their overly aggressive, in your face attitude, all but guaranteed that they would fail to find a receptive audience for their ideas. They were going to start the revolution too and take over the school board. They failed. And they failed largely because of their extreme positions that were out of step with mainstream Naperville voters.

I’ll leave you with this;

regarding your comment here Please wake up taxpayer and vote early next year. The State Legislature is as corrupt and crooked as they come and have given themselves pensions better than even the police or firemen.

I’d have to check the benefits for the General Assembly, but you will be very pleased to know that their retirement fund is in the worst shape by far of the 5 state pension programs. Some small solace.

Mr. Higgins,

I got a booklet from District 203. Everything really was excellent.

Their tax rate came done and overall increases for taxpayers were only 2.5% or roughly inflation.

There is nothing wrong with Disctrict 203.

You are putting way to much energy in a situation where everything is fine. The booklet speaks for itself and was delivered to every home in District 203. Why don't you and Dan D just drop this useless subject.

The problem is the City of Naperville and not Disctrict 203. The tax caps of the State apply to Disctrict 203. They are limited to the CPI Index or 5% which ever is lower and have delivered.

So I don't see why you guys are needlessly arguing about a situation that should be left to those who are doing an excellent job.

If you want to be a productive member of society, Mr. Thom Higgins and truly care about this community, jump over to the City of Naperville problems. That is where the real problems are.....and they are severe....very severe.

Unlike Disctrict 203 which had a decreased tax rate, City of Naperville had an increased TAX RATE! While 203 only had 2.5% increase over last year, the City of Naperville had a 20% increase in taxes. The city of Naperville got out of state rule and into home rule and got away with 8 times a tax increase that the CPI index allowed for 2007.

Despite this 20% tax increase and up to 21.16% in matching contibutions of salary to the cops and firemen, we have a pension deficent of 51.5 million dollars just for our fireman and police in the City of Naperville.

I urge you 2 guys to please announce a truce and join the battle against City Hall.

You both seem to be very intelligent gentleman...yet you are both really wasting your time where there is not a major problem.

You may be more right in the School argument, Mr. Higgins, so be a man and let Dan D have the last word and simply don't respond. Who cares what he says...the school booklet is out and does tell the TRUTH.

Ask him to join you in the battle against City Hall where the tax payers are truly being milked. Don't write anymore if he continues to write and he will stop writing. No one wants to write to the air.

I would like to appeal to both of you gentleman to drop your battle and join the Napergage Battle against City Hall. I believe you are both talented and could contribute immensely.

I would love to see you both run for City Council. Unlike the School Board which pays nothing you would be compensated well.
You would get 10k in salary, 12k in health insurance, life insurance, cell phone payments of 50 bucks, internet payments of 50 bucks and even a full pension if you can hang in there for 2 terms.
And we need you there!

I urge you both to consider my offer and leave those who are doing a good job alone. From a taxpayer point of view they are doing a great job. Please check your booklets that you should have gotten in the mail.

And thank you in advance for joining the Napergatian struggle agaisnt City Hall which needs every body we can find in Naperville.

Stopping in briefly to see the blog discussions taking place, without reading many details, I surprisingly came upon my name in TWO entries by Dan Denys. I would like to respond:

Mr. Denys wrote: "Remember Barbara Herr's comments, all opportunities should be based on a lottery, private school admissions, selection for sports teams, etc. I will defer to others who know what extreme left wing groups she participates along with Thom."

Mr. Denys further wrote: "I was stunned about the socialistic biases in the schools. The goal is to promote mediocrity. Read Barbara Herr, she feels that every job should be filled by a lottery, not by ability. She advocates lotteries for college admissions. Imagine, a drawing to determine the next president. I have never seen the District reject her comments."

MY response: NEVER did I write, say, or even think the above, Mr. Denys. I find it truly unethical and offensive (and even humorous) that you would make these claims.

LEFT WING GROUPS to which I participate? Which ones would that be? Let's see: Maybe it is the not-for-profit youth orchestral group for which I donate hundreds of hours over the last four years; no wait, the FEARED Huntington Pool Board for which I have donated my time as secretary over the last two years; or could it be my serving as a room mom at my children's school every year for the last seven years (ALARM BELLS!); or could it be helping out with the School, Family, Community, Partnership at my children's school (RED FLAG); or helping my children's teachers out whenever they need it?

Mr. Denys, please stop attributing words to me that I did not write or say.

Thank you,
Barbara

Just wanted to clear the air.

I had finished my comments, but just a couple small items that the readers should evaluate.

JOHN Q.

Thanks for your comments on the current system. Again, I suggested that the alternatives be debated; I appreciate the other side of the story. You are very courteous and neighborly in your approach, by the way.

And I did not fight the system, I just went elsewhere to get what I wanted for my children. I did not want them sitting around for a year or two when the main line program caught up. The American way, my CHOICE.

And I raise this now so those who follow might get a better system. Just yesterday, over 50% of Americans do not like their education. And nobody knows about Naperville since they only did one survey in the last ten years and went out of their way not to ask specific questions on over all satisfaction. In fact, the union contract PROHIBITS such direct questions.

BLAKE

My concern for 203 is not what they have done in the last three years, it was the over collection of taxes from the referendum promise--over $100 million to date. But I raised my point and 75% of the people did not care. But I will pursue my own alternatives to make sure they NEVER lie to the community again. And I am sorry that I just don’t respect people who lie.

You are correct on the City of Naperville. For 20 years, they controlled taxes. But let me give you an idea, circulate a petition to take away their home rule authority. Said this on a previous blog. Rockford did this. Then they, like 203, would need to stay within tax caps, 2.5% rather than 10.5% (my calculation).

BARBARA HERR

Pull out your letter to the editor from April 27, 2007 that represents how the world should work (I was so moved by your letter, I SAVED IT). Without provocation, you said (I am putting quotes to give you FULL CREDIT),

“In order to give all parents an equal choice in choosing a private school for their children, the private schools must do away with their current application procedures. Screening of applicants to private schools, utilizing applications, interviews, school progress reports, student files, and tuition may all be a part of the acceptance decision. Only a lottery system would guarantee equal opportunity for all parents to send their children to the private school of their choice funded by property taxes.”

But again, I have never advocated school vouchers, that was Mr. Duraski. But your lottery concept is how the public schools operate. Do you object to the PI Plus program that provides special benefits to the 2% of the top district students? Would you object if it were expanded to the top 40 to 50 % of the students like other Districts do? Do you object to the special foreign language options for only a SELECT few of the District's students?

HIGGINS

Just a comment to all. I strongly believe that public debate and scrutiny of issues can make our society better. That was the entire basis of the formation of our country.

Free speech is one of the basic tenants of our great country. Now, you might take some of my comments as edgy, although as I have approached them on all of these blogs and the election, I try to lay out the facts and nothing more. I know that Higgins and his cronies are ready to pounce. To the extent that I failed, I apologize.

In turn, Mr. Higgins reverts to name calling, bullying and other comments. I will not stoop to this level. I respect his opinion, but his OPINION is not the ultimate truth. Why does he revert to such vicious personal attacks if my comments are so out of line with Naperville thinking?

****

Sorry not to keep my word, but I have already stated my opinion.

HAPPY FOUTH OF JULY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just out of idle curiosity, what does all this have to do with Ted's real estate deal in Joliet?

Ken,

I don't know. But we did pass termite inspections on both homes--Joliet requires them. Does Naperville? Both homes need new roofs, but our contract with the buyer of our old home says as-is and since the roof doesn't leak, we're don't have to give anything toward it. Likewise with the home we're buying. The home we're buying, the people never cleaned gutters--there are trees growing out of the gutters. Packing continues. So does the purging. It's good to move every so often. People amass a lot of stuff over time that they really don't need and will never use.

Mr. Denys:

I am very familiar with that editorial. You have taken this editorial out of context, manipulated it, added falsehoods, and accused me of being a left wing extremist.

Please stick to the facts.

Barbara

Regarding Dan Denys post of June 29, 2008 2:21 PM

Thomas Jefferson wrote “Honesty is the first chapter of wisdom” He also wrote "Truth and reason are eternal. They have prevailed. And they will eternally prevail.”

Dan might reflect on these words, and the damage his many fabrications and false statements have done to his reputation. He can whimper about “vicious personal attacks”, and “bullying” but even the most casual reader can not help but be struck by the fact that this is the only defense he offers when I expose his many falsehoods.

And speaking of falsehoods, He is now claiming that the teachers contract prohibits the district asking specific question in a survey? Really? OK, lets have some fun. Dan, please tell us on what page of the teachers contract that clause is, and please reproduce the clause in its entirety. You do that, and I will make a contribution to your favorite charity.

Read Jefferson’s words. Truth and reason are eternal, and will eternally prevail. Truth and reason prevailed in 2007 when Naperville rejected Denys and Davitt’s attempt to take over the school board. Truth and reason prevailed once again this spring when even more voters rejected their outrageous attacks against the referendum effort.

Ted, My apologies, we have truly hi-jacked this thread about your house. I’ll try to shut up.

Speaking of your new home can you post pic’s on the blog, or give us a description of the house? You said it’s in the historic district. I live in an 1897 Queen Anne near our district and love old homes. It would be fun to see a picture of your new home.

By Ken on June 29, 2008 3:25 PM
Just out of idle curiosity, what does all this have to do with Ted's real estate deal in Joliet?

___________________________________________________________________

Ken,
Initially when I saw this topic, I also thought what does selling real estate in Joliet have to do with the Naperville Sun which is a local paper about NAPERVILLE.

But I see where Host Ted is coming from. First, he is letting us know he will be missing in action on weekends and evenings as he will be doing a lot of packing and moving. I agree moving sucks and for that reason I don't feel like experiencing death any time soon.

I also liked the part about taxes and him choosing a town where taxes are affordable. Since we have all been talking about our high taxes in Naperville, this could be a suttle hint to Napeville Officials that people do look at taxes when considering moving to another community.

Joliet also has 4 casino boats generating loads of money. I wonder how much impact they would have on having kept Ted's Taxes reasonably low compared to surrounding communities?

I also wonder why Host Ted has not chosen one of his wonderful assistants from the press edition to give him a hand on this Blog Site. Anyway, it is my beleif or observation that the Blog Site will slow down if not attended as frequently. I think I noticed that a little.

Is that good or bad? I am not sure. But I think for addicts, like you Ken, it may actually be good to see Host Ted slow things down a bit. It could help you get a life! Give your children some attention! Move on and have a productive real life instead of commenting on every response by every poster. Of course you really wanted the moderatore job! I am glad Host Ted did not give it to you.

Host Ted,

Have you considered the cost of gas, wear and tear on your car and the time needed to drive to your position in the Naperville Sun daily.

I am guessing gas costs you between $2500 to $5000 just to get to work annually. I am guessing the annual wear and tear on you vehicle is at least equal to the amount you spend on gas.(depreciation.)

Time to travel to the Naperville Sun and back is at least 10 hours a week from Joliet. If you make 25 bucks an hour, that is $12,500 annually giving you a two week vacation. If you make 50 bucks an hour that is $25,000 annually giving you a two week vacation.

Basically, you have ADDITIONAL costs of between $17,500 to $35,000 dollars a year by choosing to live in Joliet instead of Naperville. It seems if you lived in Naperville you could have afforded a larger house with all these savings. I know taxes in Naperville are ridiculous but maybe with those savings you could have afforded them.

But after seeing Blake's posts showing pension costs in the Naperville Police Dept. have increased nearly 700% in the last 17 years, while those in the Naperville Fire Dept increased nearly 900%, I was shocked. I could see if you look at your pension line on your tax bill, why you would not want to come to Naperville. Can you imagine if they continue increasing at these rates, Host Ted?

What is shocking is how our City Council allowed this to happen? Do they not review these comparative studies that are done by the Illinios Municipal League of which are they members? Has former manager Peter Burchard been hiding all this from the City Council?
How could they praise him, cancel his loan, and give him severance to boot?

I know you have been nervous about doing this story, Host Ted. But let us face it our Fire Department may have had the highest pensions increases in the state if not the nation since Illinios is considered the state with the highest unfunded raw amount in the nation. Our Police Department may be the second worse in the state?

Yes, we have some growth in those years...but not 900% growth....maybe 100% growth. Where did the other 800% increase come from...end of career double promotions?

What is holding you back Host Ted from revealing this to your 16,000 subscribers on the front page?

Here is the link where Blake found all this information:

http://www.iml.org/cnt/docs/FiscalAnalysis.pdf

It is all in black and white and not done by Napergatians or authored by Napergatians. It was done by the Illiniois Municipal League. A Napergatian simply bothered to read the 100 page report!

I hope you hold the City of Naperville accoutable Host Ted. Just like you care about your high pension costs in Joliet, we also care about are OUTRAGEOUS pension costs in Naperville. While it is your personal duty to watch over your pension in Joliet, it is your watchdog duty as the Editor of the Naperville Sun to watch over and EXPOSE the pension costs of the Naperville Taxpayer.

I understand you are moving. But can't one of your employees or assistiant managers handle this assignment. If Blake, who I assume is only a citizen journalist can handle it, I suspect they can handle it.

And really, Blake blew the story wide open pretty nicely. We just need one of your real reporters to summarize what he did so that the average reader in the Naperville Sun could comprehend and hopefully become involved.

This is front page news just like the Principal Plagiarism story. We saw the impact the Naperville Sun had on that story. I am sure the impact here will even be greater.

I hope with the loss of Moderator Jim we don't regress to the old Naperville Tabloid Sun. You guys have come a long way! Please don't regress and let us not wait much longer on a story like this that broke right on your powerful blog site! I would like to think that is the reason for you blog site....to have the citizen journalists assist you with information like this when it is found.

Let the headlines be:

City Council looks the other way while Naperville fire pension rises nearly 900% in 17 years.

The subheading could be:

Police Dept slightly better at a 700% increase in 17 years but amongst the worst in the State of Illinios.

Now all this could easily explain why we have a $50.5 million pension deficit.

If you want to do some sensational tabloid journalism,

YOU COULD MENTION THAT THE CITY OF NAPERVILLE IS FACING CERTAIN BANKRUPTY IF THEY DO NOT BRING THEIR PENSION COSTS UNDER CONTROL.

Let us hope you can raise some eyebrows with these or other headlines that you choose, Host Ted.

You have been wanting to do this story for weeks...the time is now!

Give you reporter the link and tell him or her to run with it.

This stuff makes the old Napergate Stuff look small in comparison. This is BIG NAPERGATE STUFF! It really needs to be told, Host Ted!

Someone somewhere is behaving very loosely with our hard earned tax money. Let us stop it and bring some fiscal and financial responsibility to our town.

Maybe the Honorable Mayor George Pradel is not even aware of this financial crises. Maybe he trusted everyone and they simply stabbed him in the back along with all of us citizens.

Maybe the Honorable Mayor will do something, Host Ted, once he sees it on the front page. I doubt this Mayor will sit still. He just needs to know the truth and he will ACT! He is an honest man who does not tolerate corruption and cronyism. Maybe he just did not know it was happening as we did not know. Let us tell him and give him the benefit of the doubt.

If he does nothing after finding out, then and only then can one speculate that he is part of this conspiracy to enrich police and firemen at the expense of the taxpayer. I suspect that he is not part of a conspiracy but may have learned a lesson that he can no longer trust his City Officials when they present their propaganda and lies to him about how eveything in town is honkey dorey. It sounds like we need to buy a few donkeys to put these City Officials on after we confiscate all the possibly pilfered tax money back of which some may have ended in their pockets. If we have to confiscate their home and cars to reimburse the taxpayers, I have no problem. I have no problem spending the taxpayer money needed to buy them a few donkeys as their final severance pay to boot them out of town with! The only severance pay they deserve is a DONKEY TO BOOT!

Response from Ted:

If my family lived in Naperville, then my wife would be just as far from her employer as I am from mine now.

It's 22.5 miles from home to work for me. About two gallons of gas a day. I drive a 2000 Camry. It's paid for. So that's, what, 8 bucks a day, 40 bucks a week on gas. $2,000 a year on fuel. My wife is 8 minutes from work, less than 5 miles.

Councilman Bob,

Could you try to shed some light on the nearly 900% and 700% increases in the Naperville Fire and Police Department Pensions respectively between 1987 and 2004 for pension costs as determined by the Illinois Municipal League? Both are the worse or amongnst the worse in the State of Illinois.

While this issue was brought to light by Napergatian Blake, it is not strictly a Napergate Issue. It is an issue that concerns every taxpayer and should concern every City Council Member. It is a serious issue. It is a mindboggling issue difficult comprehend!

If we don't address it we could have another 900% increase between 2005 and 2022. At that point who could afford to live in Naperville! I know my kids can't! How about you kids, Councilman Bob?

Martha, you missed the point of my comment. Point was, what do all the pension/school district/etc issues have to do with Ted's real estate deal. I was looking forward to a topic that did not involve all of the above. Unfortunately, yet another unrelated topic has been taken over.

As for addiction to the web, I'm not the one up at 4:30am getting my fix before my day goes on. Three posts in a row to do just what you accuse me of. Does your family even know you any more? Maybe you need family counseling to get back in touch with them. Good luck. Family is important, and should not be neglected. I know I enjoy all my activities with my family that keep me away from the web for days at a time. Hope one day you can do the same, Martha.

To all,

If I have time, I will see if I can find the copy of the teachers contract. When I was running for election, I was appalled at how the contract grants MANAGEMENT POWER to the teachers (essentially a veto). There were MANY issues that were very slanted to the teachers benefits such as not requiring school psychologists (or social workers) not keeping time sheets (who knows if they are over or underworked).

And I recall a provision that prohibits schools from surveying parents about teacher performance. That was why the teachers had to APPROVE the survey the District sent. And could partially explain its "sugar coated" questions.

Quote Jefferson, Thom knows (or should know) how this contract is written. It controls the spending of our tax dollars. And I was surprised at its content, so should everyone else.

But after my first pass, I realized that the detail of the contract would have consumed all of my time that I needed for the election. So I decided that I would dig in if I were elected.

But notice again Thom's tactics, don't give a person the benefit that he may have read that provision. Just claim he is wrong. I do not have the time to respond to these childish bullying.

While Thom is lobbying for truth, what about PURE being a front for the Union? And we will disagree, but I think that the taxpayers of Naperville were short changed by the capital plan particularly the portion that was manipulated at Central by Caudill (we have heard he was upset that he did not get a new Central) and overlooked 19 other schools. Again, MY OPINION, yes Thom, the "truth squad" prevailed.

The larger question that Ted raised was how the taxes could be so much lower in Joliet than Naperville. This contract is at the center of the issue, my opinion. I am all for FAIR, but it is overreaching (in my opinion). It is more than salaries and retirement benefits, it is workrules, double time for lunch room supervison ($50 dollars per hour versus a lunch person supervisor at $10 per hour), classroom time, etc.

AND THOM KNOWS THIS.

Martha, you are totally on target, hard choices that have not been made in the last ten years have taken the bloom off the rose. That is the tragedy.

Ted,

I hope this is close enough to the topic. All statistics from the ISBE report cards.

I was wondering how the two communities compare regarding education funding and spending. We already know that your tax rate is higher at 6.9 vs Naperville at 5.5, but the interesting thing is if you look at the two Joliet sd's and add up their per pupil expenditure, it is almost exactly the same as D203; Joliet at $9826. and D203 at $9881. What's really interesting is where the money comes from. In D203 81% comes from the taxpayer. In the Joliet HSD it's only 71% and amazingly for the elementary sd it's only 33%! The elementary district gets 37% in state aid and 15% in federal aid. In Naperville it's only 3% in both cases. So here's one reason perhaps why your taxes are lower than Naperville, it's because of the significant amounts of state and federal aid. Kinda interesting, eh?

Reply from Ted:

There are many ways to contrast the two communities, Joliet and Naperville. Joliet is far more diverse and has a much higher low-income population, which means it gets more state and federal aid. (BTW, the HS Dist. in Joliet is 204, not 203) As an education reporter covering the Joliet school districts I recall the low-income population in those districts was about 50 percent. One other startling stat: Of the 5,000 kids in the high school district 20 percent--1,000 kids--were special ed. You may know that the costs for special ed students are much higher than for regular education students.

Ken,

I think you missed Martha's sarcasm.

She was also stating that the whole thread that Host Ted posted had nothing to do with Naperville.

The point she was trying to make is everyone is off topic including the Host who is posting about his home that has nothing to do with Naperville. But if you look at sides issues you can find relevance. Such as comparing taxes between towns.

But sometimes it is fun to veer off topic a little and we all should be able to including the Host Ted.

Just calm down, Ken!

You need to try not to respond to every word written about you or any topic. You don't ignore anyone! You seem like you need to have the last word always. It almost seems you have a disease or addiction to blogging. Take a vacation and break your sickening habit.

Yes, Martha posted 3 times in a row for the first time in a month or two. Does that really put her in your category? It seems you had a sleepless night and felt like writing to tire herself out and go back to sleep. What does that have to do with your kind of hourly rises?

If she needed rises as you do she would need to post a little more frequently than once every month or 2 months.

Have a good day, Ken! Try Centennial Beach! Do you swim! I bet you will love it!

Ted,

Your comment makes sense, but looking further, while I see Joliet's teachers salaries are lower, the pupil to teacher and staff ratio's are both a bit higher, so I wonder where the extra funds are going? Interesting question. Regardless, be glad that the feds and state are helping pay for a lot of it.

For Dan Denys,

Dan I love your style!

First you say this,

And nobody knows about Naperville since they only did one survey in the last ten years and went out of their way not to ask specific questions on over all satisfaction. In fact, the union contract PROHIBITS such direct questions.

but after I challenge you you say this,

And I recall a provision that prohibits schools from surveying parents about teacher performance....But notice again Thom's tactics, don't give a person the benefit that he may have read that provision. Just claim he is wrong. I do not have the time to respond to these childish bullying.

Too busy eh?

.

COMMENTS FOR TED

As you proceed to closing, you should check out certain tax saving options. First, you should make certain that the assessor has not recently reassessed your house for any reason. In DuPage County, the tax assessors use their real estate licences and visit all houses that are listed. They check the card for undeclared items (finished basements are the largest culprit, in Joliet, finishing the third floor). This will not show up until the next year. Your proration for taxes should be increased (the amount the seller pays you at closing).

Second, I would check for any special assessments or special service areas assigned to the property. The seller should pay those off before your close. While these are added to the "regular" property taxes, you should not have to pay them going forward. In recent years, some areas of Joliet (particularly the historic district) were improved using this financing technique, not knowing where your house is, I do not know if yours is one of those.

Third, since you are moving within the same city, you might be able to avoid paying any municipal transfer taxes.

Going forward, you are in an historical district. Get Joliet to designate your house as historic and you can get a Historic Property Tax exemption for improvements you make that substantially improves its condition. This is at least a ten year break.

I would not think that fixing a roof should trigger a property tax increase unless the assessor had reduced the assessment for the condition of the property. Also, if you do not get the historic exemption, you can always get the 4 year improvement exemption. It use to be that you had to apply. However, in Lisle Township, they automatically evaluate any permit to see if the value should be increased and then apply the four year exemption automatically. However, I think that is a procedure of Lisle Township and not a state law.

COMMENT FOR NAPERVILLE

It is very curious that Buchard leaves town after 6% and 12% property tax increases after 20 years of being less than CPI. You know my views about 203.

One guiding tenant in my life is that two heads are better than one (of course, Thom views mine as worthless, so it might not apply to me). I find that critical reviews of key issues leads to better solutions. For example, I would have felt more comfortable if the 203 Building Committee included Thom H., Kevin H., Dave Zager and Craig (?not certain of first name)Williams rather than the committee that was not allowed to debate the issues.

No organization can afford to stand still in time. Government needs to reinvent itself or it is going to kill our society. We have prospered over the last 70 years because we had the lowest government costs (and much of our government spending was investment--roads, technology) compared to the rest of the world. We do not have to catch up to them. Today the head of PIMCO called Obama the $1 TRILLION MAN. Why? Because all of his programs and anti-business proposals will result in a $1 trillion deficit by 2011. WOW. I know, George Bush has had record deficits.

But at the local level, let's get a grip on issues that have been raised on these pages: pensions, salaries, programs.

I truly like to engage in spirited discussion of issues because I feel that they can be fixed, I am a major optimist. And the solutions are not spending $300K for private schools. Why not offer those programs within the public schools? At least 25% of the students could benefit from them (even me, I could use as extra $300,000). And Thom (when he is not bullying) raises valid points. As someone said on this post (I am not going to look back), the truth is somewhere in the middle. I would agree. But that middle would be an IMPROVEMENT over where we are today.

HAPPY FOURTH OF JULY!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ted, good luck in the real estate transactions.

Marshall, you too have missed the point. Obviously Ted can start a thread on any subject he wants, and I welcome the variety. Really, how many threads do there need to be about the police pensions, school pensions, etc. I was looking forward to a thread with a different topic, and it has been taken over by the usual suspects.

By the way, Marshall, I do respond to anyone who addresses me or attacks me because I have no problem standing up for myself. I get a kick out or all of you that want to attack me and then get upset when I respond. You will have to look elsewhere to find a pushover. Or, you could just try debating without attacking. What a novel idea...

Once, just once I'd like Dan Denys not to distort something. Regarding this comment of his earlier today;

Today the head of PIMCO called Obama the $1 TRILLION MAN. Why? Because all of his programs and anti-business proposals will result in a $1 trillion deficit by 2011. WOW. I know, George Bush has had record deficits.

From Bloomberg who hasn't been all that kind to Dan in the past;

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aIwN.hFTsofo&refer=news

Obama May Produce $1 Trillion Deficit, Gross Says (Update3)

By Candice Zachariahs

June 30 (Bloomberg) -- Bill Gross, manager of the world's biggest bond fund at Pacific Investment Management Co., said a Barack Obama administration may have no other choice than to produce the first $1 trillion U.S. budget deficit.

``You have inherited a mess,'' Gross, co-chief investment officer of Pimco, said in an open letter to Obama, the likely Democratic presidential nominee, published on the Newport Beach, California-based company's Web site today. ``What do I think you should do as the new president to rectify this mess? All I know is that any solution will come with a high price tag.''

Higher taxes for hedge-fund managers and oil companies will not cover the $500 billion stimulus the economy needs, including the anticipated Obama tax cuts for the poor and middle-class, universal health care and aid to the depressed residential real estate market, said Gross, a long-time Republican. The likely expenditures and increased borrowing suggest that ``intermediate and long-term yields on government bonds have already bottomed and will gradually rise'' through the next four years and possibly beyond, Gross said.

Gross domestic investment in machines, houses and inventories has fallen by $200 billion since its 2006 peak, Gross said. Domestic consumption will soon be $300 billion short of what's needed for an economic rejuvenation, he said. With the deficit already pushing $500 billion even before the next president is sworn in, Gross anticipates it will reach $1 trillion deficit by 2011.

Republicans ``will blame you for years and label you `Trillion-Dollar Obama,''' said Gross, in his analysis that assumes Obama will defeat his presumptive Republican adversary, John McCain. . ``There is, in fact, not much that you or any other President can do.''

Go read Bill's letter in full below and ask yourself if it comports with Dan Denys claim, or is he once again attempting to score ideological points by distorting Gross' words. You be the judge.

http://www.pimco.com/LeftNav/Featured+Market+Commentary/IO/2008/IO+July+2008.htm

To Thom,

"I love your style."

I made my comment the teachers contract prohibiting (or let me soften my words, at least LIMITING) direct surveys of teacher performance based on my recollection of the contract. There were "issues" that I recall reading the contract substantially limits management perrogative (one of the reasons for higher taxes, the point of this blog). Surveys and no time report for educational support functions (or whatever the proper terminology is) were two areas that stuck in my head. The district also noted this limitation when they did their first survey in ten years (or so). I remember people commenting on its lack of objectivity.

You immediately called me a liar even though you do not know for certain the information was not there. I might have a copy of the contract in my files that I retained from the election and other activities, but I would have to dig them out of their boxes. Of course, had the District had this file on line, you and I could check immediately. But full transparency is not high on their list (my opinion).

Am I going to stake my life on the exact details? No. But I am 75% certain there was some type of "meaningful" limitation. Reinforced by the actual survey. Also, I am not about to take you up on your childish challenge.

It would be simple to say, "I do not think that is in the contract, your recollection must be wrong" rather than calling me a liar. I would (as I have) taken a step back and double check this, even though it was pretty vivid in my mind and I have done as much research as you have (and you and I have done more than the Board members, by far, and I mean this as a compliment to at least you). We could then see if my memory was anywhere close.

Maybe a challenge to you Thom, you and I go through the teachers contract (the details, the research--such as the BLS info, other contracts, whatever) and make a joint report on the actions for the next contract. Salaries are 85% of the cost--teachers the most. Then see the outcome. We can present areas we agree on and for those that we don't, we list our positions. Probably many areas that need clarity. We can submit the report to the financial advisors board.

Needs to wait till the fall though, but we have until 2010.

I do disagree with Gross as follows.

1. Barry O (the name he used through college) first needs to be elected.

2. All of his programs that Gross assumes will be implemented need to be accepted.

What Gross does not note is what a McCain deficit would be.

I find it very amusing that people below $50,000 (or whatever the number now is for a given type of taxpayer) should pay no tax. This was the same thing that happened in mortgages, no money down, get a house.

Everyone should be pulling their share. No free FICA. We are replacing welfare with these new programs. People should work hard so that they can keep more, not create incentives not to work with no taxes and free medical.

The McCain deficit, lower, because no free rides. And the wealthy will reinvest their wealth to address the $500 billion expansion rather than increasing the giveaway.

I think that might summarize the rest of the story that Thom says is missing. At least, my opinion. Again, I had no malice about Obama, I simply said that the Federal tax situation did not look good, so we should focus on our local taxes. Does it matter who makes the Federal situation worst and by how much? To me, no. But it gives Thom yet another excuse to bully on the fringe of my comment.

Dan,

The problem is you made this statement which is misleading to put it kindly;

Today the head of PIMCO called Obama the $1 TRILLION MAN. Why? Because all of his programs and anti-business proposals will result in a $1 trillion deficit by 2011.

You are clearly implying that Gross is claiming that Obama plans to enact programs and anti-business proposals that will have the adverse effect of increasing the deficit $1 trillion.

In reality it's Gross that's telling Obama he needs to spend $1 Trillion to get(keep?) the the economy going. Here's Gross;

What you need now is fiscal spending and lots of it. No ordinary Starbucks will do, Mr. President, you need to step up for a
six-pack of Red Bull.

Any sentient being reading Gross' piece will understand the main premise is his urging Obama to spend that trillion, not decrying the fact.

I see you once again accuse me of bullying you. Perhaps psychologically after my repeated outing of all your distortions and misstatements you are feeling like a victim, and hence you call me a bully, but I refer you to the definition of bullying;

Bullying is the act of intentionally causing harm to others, through verbal harassment, physical assault, or other more subtle methods of coercion such as manipulation. Bullying is usually done to coerce others by fear or threat.

What I am intentionally trying to do is force you into seeing that you can not just make stuff up to fit your argument and get away with it. So, unless trying to coerce you into being truthful is bullying, I struggle with how you make the claim.

Some thoughts on your claims about the teachers contract. I do not have the current contract but I do have a copy of the 08/09 through 09/10 contract extension.

Nowhere in the contract is their even the slightest discussion regarding teachers having any kind of say over survey questions. There is nothing in the contract anywhere that veto's the administrations ability to conduct the affairs of the district, or slanted to the teachers benefit. Instead the contract is cooperative in tone.

Article 5 talks about reduction in force. I wont duplicate all of it but there is nothing about limiting staff reduction. In fact the first statement is about both parties recognizing that factors may cause reduction of positions. BTW regarding Denys claims of there not being staff reductions due to declining enrollment, the tentative budget anticipates a reduction in teacher positions of 15. However there are additions due to the new language program, new technology positions, and two additional teachers in the HS's. The net is a 4 position reduction if the projections hold. They hold some positions in reserve in case there are larger enrollments.

I'll also mention the tentative budget indicates a 3.66% annual wage increase for the 4 bargaining units. I believe Denys claimed 7% somewhere. However, my memory is the dollar cost for salaries is expected to increase only 2.2% due to the younger and hence less expensive work force.

Under Article 3 Employment conditions, section E. Occupational and Physical Therapists, Social Workers and Psychologists, It states;

...shall not be required to keep a log of works hours, nor shall they be permitted to "bank" additional hours beyond one normal workweek.

I don't exactly know what this means, but for Dan apparently it means this,

There were MANY issues that were very slanted to the teachers benefits such as not requiring school psychologists (or social workers) not keeping time sheets (who knows if they are over or underworked).

Ted, Sorry for once again hi-jacking your topic.

OK I admit this is piling on;

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/Story?id=3082803&page=1

The year was 1979 and Hawaii's Punahou High School basketball team was in the state finals, dominating, 32-11, at the half.

Out on the court was No. 23, but long before Michael Jordan made that number famous, another player was standing out for other reasons. His name was Barry Obama.

Sometimes called "Barry O'bomber" for his jump shot, that player is better known today as presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama. At least, that's how he's known everywhere else.

Obama's teammates Alan Lum and Dan Hale say those years with the kid they called "Barry" are some of their most memorable. The three friends were part of a basketball-obsessed group of students known as the "Rat-ballers."

"I mean in that forum of a basketball or a pickup game or you know, as a teammate. … He just had something about him. He had this charismatic nature," Hale said.

And despite the nice suits and crisp ties Obama currently wears, both men say they still see him as Barry. "I see Barry, but he's a lot skinnier. … And he looks good," Lum said.

To all,

I think Thom and I generally agree. I wonder if he, unlike all the other people on this post, likes his higher taxes this year?

1. Gross's comment. I was discouraged when I saw this comment because it represented surrender to the deficits. My point was that an Obama $1 trillion deficit or a Bush $500 billion deficit are unacceptable. In Bush's case, he should have done whatever it took not to cave in to the discretionary spending.

But let's think what Gross does? He invests in bonds. He wants more bonds at a higher interest rate. Using Thom's deeper reading of egging Obama on to spend money, maybe this is just self interest.

2 Teachers contract. When I can get my hand on the contract, I will look for the citation about surveys or checking with parents.

Thom looks at the tone as cooperative, I look at it as giving up management perrogative. Two understandable interpretations.

I agree with the reduction in force. The 3.66% salary increase is deceptive. It reflects turnover (replacement of higher paid teachers with lower paid teachers) and some reduction in force as noted. I was focussing on what an actual employee makes one year compared to the next. The only current source for his information is the Champion.org. (I am waiting for the District to post this information).

Thom quoted the exact section I was referring to. I am use to dealing with professionals like these that have to account for their hours and productivity. You can judge the clause.

3. Barry O Where is the a lie? He was blessed to go to one of the best schools in the Country (the school was endowed by the riches of the last Hawaian king). If I am not mistaken (Thom, feel free to correct, but do not accuse me of lying), this school gives preferential admissions to people of Hawaian ancestory. He might not have been admitted today as this factor has been enforced more.

Regarding Dan’s last post.

I have no idea what Mr. Denys thinks he and I agree on.

I have to believe he doesn't agree that he was trying to mislead the reader of Gross’ true intention as a way to slam Obama, otherwise an apology would have been forthcoming. Instead this, which is simply hysterical;

Using Thom's deeper reading of egging Obama on to spend money,

My deeper reading? Just…. Can’t…. Go…… There.

My taxes? The best return I get in any of the taxes I pay is what goes to 203. So yeah, I’m happy to pay it knowing that 203 is a stone cold bargain compared to other districts. I was happy to pay taxes here for 21 years before children, and I’ll happily pay (Lord willing) for 21 years after. The promise of a free public education is one of the great achievements of this nation. Naperville’s portion? Looks like that bears some looking at (and not necessarily because of the pension issue).

This comment by Dan is incorrect;

It reflects turnover (replacement of higher paid teachers with lower paid teachers) and some reduction in force as noted. I was focussing on what an actual employee makes one year compared to the next.

Per the tentative budget “The provisions of the contracts provide for increases in 2008-2009 and 2009-2010 to average 3.66%.” This covers all four employee associations

The 3.66% figure has nothing to do with reduction of force, or turnover to a younger workforce. It is the contractual increase in salary (or as Denys says “what an actual employee makes one year to the next”). As I stated previously, but need to find the attribution, the effective increase in the total amount spent on teachers salaries for this last year was 2.2% I believe. This number is lower due to the turnover to younger teachers and any RIF if applicable.

Regarding this;

Barry O Where is the a lie?

OK I was having a little fun here. I’d pay serious money to see Dan one on one with “Barry O”. Very serious money.

This has been another hi-jacking of Ted's thread brought to you courtesy of Dan Denys and Thom (I'm only responding to him) Higgins. Sorry Ted.

One of Ted's points of this thread were lower taxes in Joliet than Naperville. Many points have been raised around this thought.

Apologize about Gross? The main thrust of my comment was the continued disaster at the Federal level, be it Bush or Obama. Notice how Gross leaves McCain out of the equation. I DID NOT WANT THAT TO SPREAD TO HE LOCAL LEVEL. Higgins goes in different, irrelevant positions. You do not have to apologize for stating your opinion.

Thom points out that Joliet taxes are lower than Naperville because of teacher salaries. HAD TO BE, Naperville is in the top five percent of all Illinois school districts, you have to go to the North Shore to find higher paid teachers.

Then we get this new math on teachers getting 3.66% increases. The contracts has a salary increaes of 5.2% for teachers just for working one year more. When others have taken salary data for teachers who have worked continuously for five years from the Champion.org (originally supplied by 203), the average salary increase exceeds 7%. Part of this are pay increases for education (lane changes), the rest probably relates to teachers who take advantage of extra pay (we are waiting to see if the the District will supply the informaton, Leis put it in Zager's hands who just returned to work this week after an unfortunate personal tragedy, so I am not pushing).

How can "budgeted" salary expenses be 3.66% when built in increases are 5.2% and have averaged 7%? Turnover and reduction in force. That is what Leis said last year when the increase was 1%. Does Thom have new information? Or is he looking at this differently? No matter what the answer to these questions are, I do not need an apology from Higgins.

This illustrates an interesting negotiating point that has contributed to this cost increase. Initially, early retirement was offered to teachers to enable school district to buy out high paid teachers and replace them with lower paid teachers. After paying the cost, the Districts (and the taxpayers)would benefit going forward (just like the auto companies except the new teachers were not put on a two tiered salary plan). Now the teachers are trying to use these savings to FURTHER increase (note I am not saying cut increases as Thom falsely accuses me of advocating) their pay, taking the benefit from the taxpayers.

So I am to play basketball against Barry O? Not my sport or my type of person. I'll leave that to you, Barbara Herr, and Peter Shulman. I was totally unimpressed when I met him personally, very arrogant. He will do ANYTHING to win, he is upset he can't kick McCain off the ballot like he did in his first race. He must be sending Jerri Ryan checks for dumping on Jack (why does she keep his name?).

"I'm only responding to him." Give me a break.

Good luck Ted on the closing.

It is nice to see that the Napergatians are not the only ones who hijack Ted's Threads...lol...

I have never seen 2 characters like Dan Denys and Thom Higgins go at it for so long. It is almost more about their egos than the issues at hand.

I wonder Host Ted if they were just e-mailing each other if they would have gone at it so intensely for so long...

After a while most bloggers stop reading what they write. Do they know that?

Dan,

I'd drop the Obama topic if I were you. Your statements regarding the PIMCO story have been VERY misleading. You are digging yourself a deeper hole.

-JQP

Regarding Dan Denys post of July 2, 2008 9:40 AM

I’ll second John Q’s comment regarding Dan’s distortion of the Gross piece .

Regarding Dan’s comment here;

Thom points out that Joliet taxes are lower than Naperville because of teacher salaries.

Never said this. Never. Because it isn’t true. As Ted indicated their tax rate in Joliet is 6.9124 vs. 5.4774 in Naperville. Home prices are lower in Joliet which will help keep property taxes lower, in spite of the higher tax rate. That’s all. As for trying to hang it all on the teachers salaries, as I indicated in a post above, D203 spends just about the same amount per student as Joliet. Interesting fact considering that GASP! teachers in Naperville make more than those in Joliet. However, the Feds and state contribute significant sums to the budget. Absent that, Ted’s tax rate, and property taxes, would be much higher.

So, once again we have Dan putting trying to put words in my mouth that are untrue to further his crusade against D203. Would Dan be happier paying 25% more on his taxes? that what would happen if Naperville had Joliet's tax rate.

Regarding this,

Then we get this new math on teachers getting 3.66% increases. The contracts has a salary increaes of 5.2% for teachers just for working one year more. When others have taken salary data for teachers who have worked continuously for five years from the Champion.org (originally supplied by 203), the average salary increase exceeds 7%.

Once again. Per the tentative budget, prepared by the Asst. Supt. of Finance. “The provisions of the contracts provide for increases in 2008-2009 and 2009-2010 to average 3.66%.” This covers all four employee associations for 08-09 and three for 09-10. See page 5 below.

http://www.naperville203.org/assets/08-09TentBudget.pdf

In a previous thread I posted Zager’s response to the Champion website’s manipulation of the teacher salary information., so you will excuse me if I reject their 7% number. Dan has talked very favorably about Zager’s professionalism in the past. Is Dan now telling us he thinks Zager’s being dishonest, based on his “new math” quip, and rejection of the Champion salary numbers? If he will not accept the legitimacy of Zager’s 3.66% figure, and salary analysis, I have to say in he is.

Dan’s ramble about younger teacher’s lowering total salary cost is too long to reproduce, but my memory is that total salary increase for all teachers combined is down to something like 2.2% because of those younger teachers. I need to find the attribution for that number.

Dan, will you explain your sudden fixation regarding Barbara Herr and your desire to link me too her? Frankly, it’s rather shabby behavior.

This has been yet another hi-jacking of Ted's thread brought to you courtesy of Dan Denys and Thom (If Denys would stop making s**t up. I wouldn’t have to reply) Higgins. Sorry Ted and, sorry anonymous.

Happy Fourth of July everyone. Even you Dan.