Naperville slips to state's 5th-largest city

Thank goodness!

Anymore people in the town and it will burst!

Thank goodness there is growth some where in this state. The Midwest is dying, along with the Northeast. Check out the latest growth patterns at the Census Bureaus website and you can clearly see the Southwest is dynamic and growing like crazy while the Midwest is stagnating and growing more elderly. Trends like this are a death sentence to economies like Illinois. You must have growth to support the tax base and pay for things. Without it, you risk massive budget shortfalls and ultimately bankruptcy. It's simple economics really. While everyone loves to complain about growth in Naperville, wait until you experience the opposite. It's far worse.

By the way, anyone see CNBC's story on the best state for business? It was Texas. Illinois ranks number 30. No surprise there.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/25501924

Well let's not get too excited about Texas. Might be good for business but not so good for its residents.

Click here;

http://shapleigh.org/system/news_article/document/882/Texas_on_the_Brink_2007_Final.pdf

Sorry Thom, you can try that old canard on others if you like but it won't work here. If you are rapidly growing and have many immigrants you are most likely going to have those sorts of issues. Over time they will heal themselves. I'm quite sure when Illinois was young and growing like crazy it had the same problems. 60% of the college age kids in Ohio LEAVE the state for college and NEVER come back. Where do they go? To places like Texas. I will take GROWING pains all day long than stagnation like the Midwest is experiencing. Richard Longworth's new book nailed it, I suggest you read it instead of spouting your same old tired out rhetoric in an attempt to justify high taxes for local schools, broken pensions systems, and the like. THE SIMPLE FACT IS people in the Midwest are voting with their feet. They are leaving and NEVER coming back and you can blow all the smoke you want about it but the census bureau reports DO NOT lie.

http://www.amazon.com/Caught-Middle-Americas-Heartland-Globalism/dp/1596914130/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215831287&sr=1-1

Anonymous

From the publishers weekly review of the book you tout,

The Midwest's real hope, he (Longworth) insists, lies in a massive influx of mostly low-wage immigrant workers and in enclaves of the rich and brainy, like Chicago and Ann Arbor, where the creative class sells nebulous information solutions to dropouts and Ph.D.s. It's not the Middle West that's under siege in Longworth's telling; it's the now apparently quaint notion of a middle class.

Yes, the middle class is under siege in this country, largely due to globalization. So it seems to me you are, once again, over reaching in your attempt to paint all problems arising from what you consider to be high taxation. It's not taxes that are hurting places like Ohio, it's the effect of a historic shift away from a manufacturing economy, due to globalization. Unfortunately, too many people are failing to transition to good paying jobs in the new economy.

You can talk about Ohio all you want, but the Chicago Metropolitan region is growing. In Naperville, people are making money, paying their taxes, receiving good government services, and their children are going to good schools. It's a good life.

Hey, all,

Check out this article from our friends at the Tribune today:

>http://www.chicagotribune.com/travel/chi-popular-joliet_12jul12,0,3382748.story>

It's headlined, "Joliet blossoming into a place to live and visit," and includes this passage:

Michael Kazecki and his wife moved to Joliet four years ago after finding an affordable, 100-year-old "fixer-upper." Growing up in nearby communities, the couple heard bad things about Joliet and were apprehensive at first.

"The perception at the time was that it was full of smog and dirt," Kazecki said at a yard sale on his lawn Friday. "Now it's been rejuvenated. It's a nice miniature version of downtown Chicago."

Some residents took delight in blue-collar Joliet trumping white-collar Naperville in the rankings. Kazecki was excited that more people are choosing to live in the humble community he has come to love.

"Sometimes you go to Naperville on the Riverwalk—everybody has a certain air about them—but it's laid back here," he said.

Maybe Chris Cobb can tear down the historic house on Chicago Avenue and build some high density housing. If the density is high enough, perhaps we can slip past Joliet for fourth place. You know, kill two birds with one stone.

Ted,

Yes, it's not only Naperville that's thriving. Drive west on 34 some time , or go south to Lockport, or even in Chicago proper. There is construction and economic activity all over the entire metropolitan region.

The thing I do not like about Naperville is all the traffic and with all the traffic comes all the people everywhere.

I prefer smaller communities where you can go somwhere and not have to have a shuttle to get to the event.

Yeah, I guess Richard Longworth is all wet. Sure glad Higgins is so knowledgable. You will not recognize Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio, Iowa, New York, among others in 30-50 years. You will have small pockets that manage to hang on but by and large ACCORDING TO THE US CENSUS BUREAU these states will be heavily aged, not growing worth a plug nickel and for all intents and purposes dying a slow death. The tax base will be shot to hell, state governments will be bankrupt. But hey at least Cook Cnty will still have it's business loving 10.25% sales tax! And the schools will be GREAT, even though the few students left will bail as soon as they graduate. Take a look at Iowa the VAST majority of Iowa and Iowa State grads leave the state once graduated. Texas Instruments in made up of a ton of Iowa State Grads. An Iowa State grad ran the company for many years. Bob Noyce, one of the founders of intel graduate from the left wing nut job Grinnell college in the 50's and moved to California never to return. Look at the founder of Netscape, bailed out of Illinois as soon as he graduated for silicon valley never to return, but hey he got a GREAT education here. Higgins, you need to get out of your little bubble here in Naperville and look at the BIG picture.

Of course my favorite thing about Texas. Teachers can't strike!!! A state that makes sense.

Well, the Money magazine 2008 Best places to live in the US is out and Naperville's slipped to 3rd. Time for anonymous to call the movers and head to number 7. For the rest of us read on.

America's Best Places to Live 2008

Great jobs, schools, housing—these 10 small cities have all that and more

Chances are, you love the corner of the nation your family calls home. And that’s exactly as it should be. But let’s face it: Certain towns have more of the things that make a place great for raising a family and building a rich life—like plentiful jobs, excellent schools, scenic beauty and houses that won’t suck away your last dime.

As we do every year, we set out to identify those communities that just seem to have it all. We analyzed the nation’s small cities, those with populations of 50,000 to 300,000.

Here's Naperville's stats, as reported. I agree about traffic being our great negative.

Population: 142,900

Miles from Chicago: 26

Job growth: 18.8% since 2000

Public library: Ranked No. 1 among small cities

Pros: Topnotch schools, abundant parks, a booming downtown

Con: Lots of traffic

http://finance.yahoo.com/real-estate/article/105381/America%27s-Best-Places-to-Live-2008

Higgins always tries to get in the last word. CNBC rated Illinois 30th, Texas 1st. Illinois has a budget that is not balanced by almost $1 billion, Texas has a $17 billion surplus.

There are 2,000 houses on the market in Naperville. New house development has stopped. Lennar walked away from a new housing development in Plainfield. Why do you think Macom wanted to sell some housing sites for the new third high school.

People with attitudes like Higgins only encourage more companies and people to leave this area. The Lucent buildings are empty, why doesn't another company come in? Taxes, anti business climate.

If you owned a business, where would you want to locate? A state with a 8.5% business tax rate that is expected to double, high property taxes, union stranglehold on employment? Or a state with no income tax, billions in the bank, right to work state?

Besides the small corporate office of Boeing (which Chicago subsidized substantially), what was the largest new employer in Illinois? A regional office of Ameriquest, a subprime mortgage lender that was one of the first to go. BIG DEAL!!

Higgins, the MIDDLE CLASS have NO CHANCE in Illinois, that is why the brightest and best never come back!!! We just get more gang bangers.

"Some residents took delight in blue-collar Joliet trumping white-collar Naperville in the rankings."

Oh, please. That's idiotic. I'll take socio-economics over city size anyday. Let Joliet cotinue to take delight in trumping us.

Texas leads the NATION with Fortune 500 companies headquarters with 58.Illinois has 33. I will be moving to Texas soon. I am sick of the high taxes, inept state government, Teachers Unions that can strike on a whim, and the crappy weather. Have fun hanging around here Thom paying ever higher taxes while all the young people bail the Midwest. Oh yeah, Richard Longworth is dumber than Higgins.

Obviously none of the reviewers or writers who wrote these ranking stories have ever actually lived in Naperville.

Did any single one of them (assuming there was more than one person assigned to this story) even personally visit Naperville before coming to these conclusions? If they did... how long did they stay, where did they go, who did they talk to? Better yet, what was the rating criteria? Was hanging laundry in the backyard was one of them?

Or more likely did they just sit on the 48th floor of some mindless, nondescript building in Manhattan in one of the many mindless nondescript cubicles on that floor and simply review god knows what kind of data from what kind of sources to pump out another feel good article that is intended to generate magazine sales. And then we have some who live in Naperville and a whole bunch of other cities who are gullible enough to give these kind of stories anything more than a chuckle and a snicker.

Like has anyone ever documented a family who was actually stupid enough to move to somewhere because that community was first on the list? Or possibly a family that moves from year to year to always live in the number one community? Maybe Brenda would. She claims to have the money to afford such a lifestyle and is truly gullible and egotistical enough to try it. Maybe Thom could give her a hand packing her bags and they could have a truly gushing and memorable conversation on the drive to their new community each year. Oh, and hey Thom and Brenda don't forget frequent air kisses. Sincerity runs deep.

To all the Anons on July 14, 2008 8:55 AM, July 13, 2008 10:21 PM, July 11, 2008 1:37 PM, etc., and Thom Higgins--

First of all, how did a blog about Joliet surpassing Naperville in population become a debate about business friendly states and the disappearing middle class?

I was happy to read that Naperville's growth had slowed and that folks were moving more into surrounding areas. Sure, Naperville is a great place to live, but it's not the ONLY place.

I'm not entirely sure what Ted's statement "Some residents took delight in blue-collar Joliet trumping white-collar Naperville in the rankings" means. What rankings? All I read about was population, and if Joliet has a bigger one than Naperville, they are welcome to it. Sure, areas need a certain amount of growth to remain vital, but unbridled growth and development run amok like what's been happening in Naperville for many years has its downside in the form of escalating housing prices, overcrowding in schools and increased traffic among other things, all of which we're now having to deal with.

That said, I haven't read Longworth and don't keep track of census ratings. I'll take Anons word on both. But I did live in Texas for 10 years before relocating to Naperville, where we have now also lived for 10 years. We have friends and family in Texas and still visit often. So I know what I'm talking about when I compare the quality of life between the two.

I have a feeling the Anons have never spent any significant amount of time in Texas. It's a big state which covers a lot of different terrain, from the snowy panhandle of the north to the green, gentle hills around the Austin area, aptly called the Hill Country, past the blistering hot desert around San Antonio, all the way to the gnarly-green water of the Gulf of Mexico. The quality of life in Texas greatly depends on where you are in it. We lived in Houston. It wasn't so great.

Texas is pro big business, which is why companies love to locate there. But it is so at the expense of its residents, Higgins is right about that. Texas has no state income tax, which they desperately need for their public school system, which is wretched. So wretched, in fact, we had both our children in private school while there, and so did everyone we knew who could possibly afford to. So does my son. He lives in the north part of Houston, and already has a private school arranged for his 2-year-old when she starts kindergarten. The fact that Naperville had an excellent and safe public school system played the biggest part in our decision to move here.

Texas has many tax laws which benefit big business. It's a republican state, so this should come as no surprise. But what would surpise some of you is that Houston has no zoning laws to restrict where businesses can operate. Zoning hurts businesses, so it's not done. Imagine a chicken processing plant being built between a subdivision and its local middle school. I can, because that's exactly what happened in our old neighborhood two years after we left. Next came the check-cashing liquor store/gas station next to our neighborhood park. Day laborers began cashing their paychecks there, buying alcohol, and drinking up in the park in full view of children and families. That's when the last two families we knew in our old neighborhood moved out.

Another thing I noticed about Naperville and the surrounding areas immediately was it's lack of billboards. Of course, there are no restrictions on billboard advertising in Houston, this would hurt business. So the freeways and streets are literally littered with billboards to the point of ad pollution. And this is far from all; it's just for starters.

So sure, you can laud the business friendly atmosphere of Texas all you want, but does it sound like you would want to LIVE there? If so, you're a lot thicker skinned than I am. And let's not even talk about gang bangers in Naperville. Please. You haven't seen gang bangers till you've seen the southwest variety, and given the gun laws in Texas, the criminals are more often armed than not. The year before we left, a body was found in our neighborhood park. Gunshot victim of gang violence, the usual stuff you find in the city, was right outside our suburb gates. Yes, there are a lot of employment opportunities in Houston, lots of jobs if you want one. IF is the operative word. Just because jobs are available doesn't mean everyone there will choose to work.

So Anon wants to bring this kind of business friendly atmosphere and growth to the midwest? No thanks. We moved here to get away from that in Texas. They can keep it.

NOTE from Ted:

Just to clarify, the part about some Joliet residents liking the fact they passed up Naperville was a quote in the Tribune story, not my comment.

By Anonymous on July 14, 2008 12:40 PM--

Texas leads the NATION with Fortune 500 companies headquarters with 58.Illinois has 33. I will be moving to Texas soon. I am sick of the high taxes, inept state government, Teachers Unions that can strike on a whim, and the crappy weather. Have fun hanging around here Thom paying ever higher taxes while all the young people bail the Midwest. Oh yeah, Richard Longworth is dumber than Higgins.
-------------------------------------

Where in Texas? As I've said before, it's a huge state, and where you end up makes all the difference.

I've heard Flower Mounds outside of Dallas is a nice community; we've known a few people who have relocated there. Austin and it's surrounding areas are good, too. Austin has been on the 10 Best list before. But if you end up in the Houston area, good luck; you're going to need it.

Inept state government? Texas residents say the same about their elected officials. High taxes here? Sure, but here we can see what we're getting for our money--a great education for our kids in a safe environment. That's exactly what the lack of taxes in Texas DOESN'T get you there. If you'll be in Houston or the surrounding area, better get a list of private schools before you get there; you'll be shocked at the condition of the public ones. Better look for a house in a gated community; the crime rate is sky high compared to here (tho I don't know how it compares to Chicago) and there are no zoning laws to protect you from any business setting up shop next door, so unless you want a water treatment plant going in across the street, look into the development plans of any vacant land nearby. And the Texas soil is largely clay, which wrecks havoc on house foundations. Every house in Texas will need at least one foundation repair in its lifetime, many need more than one. Foundation repair is big business in Texas. Crappy weather? You may want to rethink that one entirely.

We have change of seasons, which involves winter if that's what you mean by crappy. Most of Texas has two seasons--hot and hotter. This is not the same as mild southern California heat. It's oppressively hot AND humid, so much so that you cannot be outside from April on and sit in the shade for more than a minute without breaking into a full sweat. Hope no one in your family likes to garden, you can forget about this in Texas. What the unrelenting heat doesn't kill, the ever-present fungus and mold will. And since there is no long winter to kill off the vermin, you have mosquitos nearly year round and cockroaches the size of Cadillacs. They're called palmetto bugs, actually, and they fly. It would be fine if they stayed outdoors, but being cockroaches they prefer to live in houses with all the good things that people provide. And they are resilient, too. I could tell you a story about a cockroach I tried getting rid of by flushing down the toilet only to have it crawl back up into the bathroom sink, but I think you get the picture.

And don't forget the fire ants. You won't be able to let your kids play in the backyard on the grass without treating it with fire ant killer on a regular basis. Forget picnics in the park. And staying off the grass is no guarantee of safety, either. My six-year-old once got several fire ant bites while sitting on a cement basketball court.

Not that your kids will want to play much on the grass anyway. The type of grass that grows best in Texas is called St. Augustine. The blades of this type of grass are thick and sharp; it's uncomfortable to walk across bare footed. But it's about the only type of grass that can survive the heat and grow in shade also. The tender grass we have in our yards here wouldn't last a day in Texas.

There's also no such thing as forest preserves, much less biking paths through them. Preserving the environment and providing wild areas that residents can enjoy is unheard of in Texas. In fact, there is very little outdoor life at all in Texas. Nine months of the year you'll be hiding indoors in the air conditioning to avoid the heat and humidity. I'll think of you when I'm relaxing on my deck in the summer as the kids are running around barefoot in the grass catching fireflies, and I'm thanking my lucky stars I'm not in Texas anymore!

How to deal,

Welcome to the hood! Thanks for the reality check on Texas. I had elderly relatives that would winter down in the San Antonio area with friends living there, and the stories they would tell of conditions in general weren't pretty.

We will undoubtedly see some more impassioned dissent from our anonymous poster. His posts read like some fantasy "Apocalypse Naperville". If you don't take them too seriously they are pretty humorous actually. What you need to realize is he is part of a small group of anti-tax zealots who's goal in life is to convince people that the Midwest and Illinois in general, and Naperville in specific, is going down the tubes because of unions(teachers mostly) and taxes, reality be damned.

I get under their skin pretty good as I enjoy pointing out that Naperville, and really most of the Chicagoland area is alive and quite well. When I moved into Naperville 29 years ago the population was 30,000 or so. Now we are 142,000. Naperville is just about built out, but towns farther south and west are now developing. That's probably a large reason for Joliet's growth, it's their turn, as development spreads out in a circle around the existing suburbs. I would bet Joliet has a host of new developments, as they have the farmers fields available to develop. They also have a train that goes into Chicago. That has to make Joliet that much more desirable with $4.00 gas.

As you indicated, Naperville schools are excellent, the streets are safe and we have excellent city services. The only problem for our friend is it really creates a problem with his anti-tax message. This is not to imply I'm unconcerned with taxes and costs. But the schools deliver here, and are far less expensive than comparable high performing school districts. It's a great place to raise a family.

I know a lot more about Texas than you know. Picking out Houston and applying it to all of Texas is sort of dumb. That would be like me picking out the West side of Chicago and talking about the crappy Chicago public schools and the Vice Lords, ONE OF THE WORST GANGS in the nation and then applying that to ALL of Illinois. Fortunately most people on here are smarter than that.

Money magazine just came out with its top places to live list. Guess how many from Illinois made the top 25. Only one and it was Naperville, guess how many cities in Texas made the top 25? Five, did, not withstanding those big bad old gangs you mentioned. I guess Money magazine doesn't know squat about Texas either, except when it comes to Naperville, then it's right.

You want to complain about lack of zoning yet you fail to mention that the lack of zoning has allowed Houston to have some of the least expensive real estate in the nation. More poor people can own a home in Houston than can here, but to you that is a bad thing. To me, that's a good thing. But I'm not a snobby elitist. I think home ownership is a good thing. Study after study after study has been done to show how zoning, for the most part, drives up home ownership cost and drives poor people out of communities. That's what the rich want. Texans tend to think that isn't fair. If you do your home work and buy your home near a good school and in a decent neighborhood you will have no problem. If you don't, that sounds to me like you didn't do your home work.

You want to talk bugs in Texas feel free, I can talk about Rats in Chicago and cockroaches as well.

Oh and one more thing, you said, "forget about gardening in Texas." Again you lied to fit your facts. Please explain the Valley in Texas which is in far far South Texas, even closer to the equator where it is even hotter and yet the Rio Grande Valley produces large quantities of Grapefruit, Cantalope, Water Melons, Lettuce, Tomatoes you name it. Plus the panhandle produces a great deal of corn and cattle. In fact, Texas has the largest agriculture economy in the nation outside of California, so you don't really know what you are talking about.

Forget about Forest Preserves? What are you smoking! All of East Texas is one huge Piney wood. Most folks around here don't even know that. Speaking of grass, unless I water my Ketucky Blue Grass extensively here, it turns brown and goes dormant in July and August, so it doesn't do any better up here.

The simple, unassailable fact is the census figures do NOT lie. The Midwest is dying a slow painful death, the South and Southwest are booming. More people are leaving Illinois for places like Texas than the other way around. Chose to believe it or not, I don't care, but it's happening and there really isn't much you can do about it because the Democrats and the Unions have destroyed the Midwest.

I lived in Austin and visited Houston, Dallas and San Antonio a number of times. Even as wonderful as Austin was (and I loved that city), in terms of lifestyle and raising kids, it can't hold a candle to Naperville.

Facts are facts.

I do agree with the last line and a half of your comment, though, Anonymous on July 15, 2008 12:12 AM

Everyone up here gets very defensive when I extoll Texas. That is to be expected, especially when you don't know anything about Texas and you are a left wing Democrat. It drives most around here nuts to see a state like Texas boom. California has even better assets than Texas but the left wingers are ruining that state too. Many elitest in California like the fact that many are leaving the state. They don't really care about the middle class, neither do states like Illinois. They will start to care when it's too late and they can no longer tax their way out of their budget difficulties.

How can a city with a high school population of over 4000 (NVHS) be a good place to live?

Some things I hate about Naperville (in no particular order)after living here for over 10 years:

Disrespectful kids.
Parents of the disrespectful kids.
People who move in, vote in large tax increases and then move on a year later.
Traffic.
High taxes.
Overcrowding in the schools.
Lack of commuter parking spaces, but plenty free downtown parking.
City government spending tax dollars on saving that bell tower.

Anonymous,

Get defensive?

No, we just laugh a lot.

I'm moving to Texas soon too. I'm sick of the Gypsey Moths, Emerald Ash Borers, Japanese Beetles, and Asian Long Horn Beetles destroying the trees in my yard. Not to mention the rabbits and squirrel overpopulation in Naperville too. I can't even grow a garden here because of the rabbits eating everything. Yeah, everything is wonderful in Naperville.

How in the world did this thread end up discussing the pro and con of Texas vs Illinois?

Dear Lord. I have traveled all over Texas and have lived in several different cities. Out of the entire state if I had to make a choice I suppose I could live in Austin if I had too. The rest of the state that is urbanized is pretty down right god awful. The rural part of the state is fine if desolate is in your top 3 picks of landscape. Thank god those who were born in Texas love it because few others feel the same way.

Yeah, we all know. Everything is BIG in Texas. Especially the Texas mouth and the bragging that flows incessantly from it. Military friends who are or have been stationed in Texas sum it up quite nicely by referring to Texas as the @$$hole of the nation. Little wonder how and why Texas picked up such an appropriate nickname.

I'll take good old Illinois and Chicago any day of the week. The midwest is not dying. Despite current growth all of the southwest from California to Texas will be in big trouble because it can not continue to sustain life and growth in an artificially induced environment without adequate natural resources. In 20 or 30 years when most of Texas has turned into even more of a desolate dust bowl and is desperate for food and water we will be even more thankful for Chicago, Illinois, the midwest food belt, and the Great Lakes.

By then we will be trading Texans a gallon of water for a barrel of oil... that is if Texas hasn't already succeeded from the Union and become part of Mexico again. Hope those Texas cowboy wannabe's are brushing up on their spanish and getting ready for their new passport photo. How much water did you want again?

To Anonymous on July 15, 2008 12:12 AM--

You need to get a grip and calm down. If you weren't so eager to find fault with anyone disagreeing with your point of view, you might learn something you didn't read from Longworth.

I lived the Texas experience for a decade, you haven't. Nothing you can throw out from your readings will change the reality of that. I'm not arguing the censes facts, as I said, I'll take your word on that as I frankly don't care. I'm talking about quality of life issues.

Read my posts again with a clear mind. I said Texas is a huge state with a lot of differences, and were you end up makes all the difference in the quality of life you'll have there. Austin is very different from San Antonio and is a world away from Houston. Personally, I loved Austin. Hill Country was my favorite place and if I had to live in Texas, that's where I'd choose to be. Unfortunately, when you move to Texas for a job, you can't always choose the city you prefer. You go where the job takes you and make the best of it, and making the best of it is more of a challenge in some Texas cities than others.

You'll notice I made the distinction often between Houston and the rest of Texas. I didn't live in the entire state of Texas so I can't speak for all of it, and I didn't attempt to. But since Houston is the biggest city in Texas, and the fourth largest in the U.S. following New York, Chicago and LA, and many businesses have their corporate headquarters there and in its surrounding areas, it stands as a fairly accurate representation of the Texas attitude favoring big business development and the effect this has on the people who live there. And since you make a point of sounding like a virtuous proponent of the poor, you should see first hand how they are faring in the land of corporate plenty. The southwest may be dynamic and growing like crazy, but that doesn't mean the poor there are benefitting from that. If they lack the skills and education needed to take part in that growth, they are left behind just the same as anywhere else. And given the sad state of public education in MOST of Texas, and this problem is largely state-wide, that's happening at an alarming rate.

There was a popular saying when we lived there, that most everyone in Texas is from some place else, and that's probably still the case. The people benefitting from the dynamic growth in the southwest are people moving there who were educated some place else. It's the locals, those stuck in the public school system, who are coming out unprepared and unable to compete against the newcomers for those jobs, and this is creating a permanent underclass in many of those cities experiencing this kind of growth.

So let's talk about the Texas public school system. Your statement "you do your home work and buy your home near a good school and in a decent neighborhood you will have no problem" clearly shows the extent of what you don't know about it. Any other Texas transplants care to comment? This does show that you've lived in this area for quite some time, because it is largely true here. Not so in much of Texas. Sure, there are enclaves where the communites and schools are good, this is true anywhere, and some of those made the list this year. But unlike you, I don't put much importance on the 10 Best list. Sugar Land, Texas, right outside of Houston and where our corporate office is located, ranked #3 last year right after Naperville, and totally dropped off the top 10 this year. What the heck? So while it's fun to see our town there, and these lists could be useful to someone who is relocating to those areas, there are clearly other forces at work here we're not aware of.

But back to the schools. The school district we lived in was Houston Independent School District; Sugar Land was Fort Bend ISD. Fort Bend was considered better than HISD, of course, because it was out in the suburbs, but they both got their money the same way--local property taxes. So the richer the community, the better the schools. Same thing that exists here between Naperville and Chicago schools. But they have no state tax to supplement the public school system. It's considered by many Texas lawmakers as almost unAmerican to think of such a thing, so schools make do with what they get from their surrounding areas, and in many areas it's not much.

When we were there, the legislature came up with a bright idea to address the problem, a bill that was dubbed by opponents as "The Robin Hood Bill", because that's precisely what it was designed to do, take tax money from the richer school districts and give it to the poorer ones to even things out a bit, like Naperville property tax revenue being taken to supplement Chicago schools. But since the disadvantaged schools greatly outnumbered the advantaged ones, well-off suburbs feared an endless siphoning of cash from their coffers by the state, having to raise local taxes to fund the short fall, etc. etc., so needless to say it failed. You would say the snobby elitists voted against it, but my guess is you would too, as well as everyone else in Naperville if the state tried to do the same thing here.

What remains is a pretty abysmal public school system in many areas of the state, with exceptions, of course, like anywhere. I've lost track of what they pay their teachers, what their budgets are, etc., but I do know the situation hasn't changed much and even in decent areas, as you put it, like where my son lives, many residents still choose to go the private school route if they can afford it. Magnet schools are also very popular as an alternative to the public schools, but there are always waiting lists where they do exist. I have friends who live in Humble, right outside of Houston, in a beautiful upscale gated community, and the public school system there is considered mediocre at best. That's largely the way it is.

I won't get too much into all the other stuff, like the grass (the kind you walk on, not smoke, which you obviously know more about than I do). You undoubtedly have never tried to walk barefoot on St. Augustine grass or tried to sit on it in shorts; until you do, you have no clue what you're talking about. And until you've lived with the state bird of Texas, aka the flying cockroach, which is distinctly different from the common brown German roaches in Chicago, you have no idea about this either. And as far as rats go, have you ever heard of nutrias? Google it if you have to. Like they say, everything's bigger in Texas.

And I never said Texas didn't have state parks, which is what the Piney Woods is. What I said was they don't have forest preserves like we do here. I have never seen anything like the forest preserves here anywhere in Texas. And everyone in Texas knows about the Rio Grande Valley, no news flash here. But that's one small area of a very big state. Try growing a simple bunch of periwinkles in San Antonio. If the heat doesn't kill them first, stem rot will. The fungus and mold problems in the south are common knowledge to everyone who lives there.

The zoning debate will have to be left for another time as well. Suffice it to say one can get a better idea of an area by living there for some length of time rather than just reading about it in books. Until you have, you're more clueless than you can possibly know.

Funny how you assume I have never lived in Texas. I'd sure like to know how you know that?

You made the comment you can't grow anything in Texas due to the heat. I clearly pointed out how wrong you were, in fact I pointed out that outside of CA. Texas ranks second in the value of ag. products in the entire United States. That would include far more than just the valley. You ignored that comment since it didn't fit your worldview.

It's clear you don't like Texas and you are a native of around here. That's fine, I have no problem with that. Stick around here, my point is you will be part of a slowly withering vine in the midwest.

Hate Texas all you want, I really don't care. The point is, unless Illinois and the Midwest do something drastically it's only going to get worse.

Oh and as far as these great Forest Preserve Districts we have in Illinois, thank God they don't have the same pork laden, patronage dump heaps, taxing bodies like that in Texas. That's another reason why Texas kills Illinois. I'd be in favor of dumping the Forest Preserves and Township organizations in this state. They have bled the taxpayer dry for far too long.

Iowa, has GREAT public schools too. Of course Iowa is about 99.99% white and no one wants to live in the state, but hey the schools are great!!!

To: Anonymous on July 15, 2008 12:42 PM

You are a man after my own heart! And I would add, let's keep those darn kids off the lawn!

To Anonymous on July 15, 2008 5:57 PM--

I assumed you have never lived in Texas because of the way you ignore or at best minimize its obvious shortcomings and problems. If someone loves Texas, that means they're one of three things:

1. Never been there
2. Dumb or delusional
3. Born and raised there, which amounts to the same thing as #2

Ok, maybe this is a low blow, but the other Anon above has a point. The only folks I ever met who thought Texas was the living end were the folks who were born and raised there and hadn't lived anywhere else. Poor things, they simply didn't know any better.

And no, I'm not a native of IL. Born and raised in southern CA, spent 15 years in the intermoutain west before going to Indiana and then Texas, and now here. It's simply that after spending 10 years in the armpit of the union, I really appreciate the quality of life Naperville and the Chicagoland area have to offer. There's more to life than economic boom. Obviously you and I value different things.

I will acknowlege that Texas has two things going for it, the low price of real estate, and in Houston at least, the freeway and tollway system. Chicago could definitely take lessons from Texas on how to do this. Sure, the tolls are $1 apiece, but they're worth it.

Aside from that, I'm hard pressed to find anything about Texas that I would trade for what we have here. And I didn't ignore your comment about agriculture in Texas. BFD, I missed one. You must be keeping a list. When I said gardening, I was referring to flower gardens like we have in our backyard, like landscaping, not agriculture. If you say Texas ranks second in the value of Ag. products, then fine, it does if you say so. I have absolutely no idea and I don't care enough to look it up. But in our years in Texas we did drive west across the state from Houston to El Paso several times, south to Corpus Christi and Galveston, north up thru Dallas and the panhandle, and never once did we see anything on that land but scrub and cattle. You know how here folks will grow corn or soybeans on undeveloped land to get a tax break. Same thing in Texas, except there they just throw a couple head of cattle on it, very often the longhorn variety. So I definitely get why the longhorn is a symbol of Texas, but the breadbasket? That sounds like a stretch, unless you're including the cattle industry as part of the ag. products, then I can believe it.

But all this is moot, because I did not want to grow corn or cattle in my yard. Stem rot killed the vinca, black spot fungus killed the roses, aphids sucked the hibuscus dry, heat killed the coleus and the hydrangeas, etc. etc. There was not enough fungicide and insecticide on earth to fight it all, and this on top of the chemicals we had to use against the fire ants and roaches was turning our house into a toxic dead zone. The rabbits here are nothing compared to all that.

And there is something else I missed as well. Your comment "Study after study after study has been done to show how zoning, for the most part, drives up home ownership cost and drives poor people out of communities. That's what the rich want. Texans tend to think that isn't fair." Texans tend to think that isn't fair? Oh, please. Even you can't believe that bull. Texas republicans don't give a hoot about the "underprivileged". The lack of zoning is not there to help the poor own homes, but to help the business community. I know, I was there when the zoning debate was going on and it was voted out. The big business constituents ralled like nothing we'd seen before and scared the hell out of everyone by saying zoning would ruin the business economy, zoning would cause people to lose their jobs, zoning would kill your grandmother, on and on. I wonder how some of the folks who voted against zoning felt when that chicken processing plant went up next to their middle school. Republicans didn't care. Heck, that's more jobs! See our economy grow! Geesh.

I see lots of people heading to Joliet each week. Busloads with State troopers escorting them. Not all population growth is good.

To: Grumpy Old Naperville on July 15, 2008 9:15 PM

You guessed wrong! ("You are a man after my own heart!")

Let me guess some things, you're probably one of those Naperville parents who think:
"Let's do it for the kids!
My kids do no wrong.
My kids don't need to be watched or disciplined.
How is it driving around in your huge SUV, talking on the phone, drinking your Starbucks, etc.

Get the picture!!

To: Grumpy Old Naperville on July 15, 2008 9:15 PM

You guessed wrong! ("You are a man after my own heart!")

Let me guess some things, you're probably one of those Naperville parents who think:
"Let's do it for the kids!
My kids do no wrong.
My kids don't need to be watched or disciplined.
How is it driving around in your huge SUV, talking on the phone, drinking your Starbucks, etc.

Get the picture!!

Naperville really is a 5th rated city in many more ways than just population.

By Anonymous on July 16, 2008 1:29 PM
Naperville really is a 5th rated city in many more ways than just population.
----------------------------------------

Such as . . . ?

How to deal,

If you don't know already then you need to educate yourself about what is going on in this town.

By Anonymous on July 17, 2008 11:22 AM--

How to deal,

If you don't know already then you need to educate yourself about what is going on in this town.
---------------------------------

Ok. So I'm asking you. Since you made the statement, you should know.

Texas is famous for it's Wild Flowers so you better get your gardening comments straight. Ever hear of the Indian Paint Brush or the Texas Bluebonnett? Springtime in Texas is stunning when the wild flowers are out. There is nothing to compare it to in Illinois You don't have a clue what you are talking about. All you do is complain about asthetics but ignore the census data. I've busted you on the Ag. thing and you clearly admitted you didn't know what the heck you were talking about. What else don't you have a clue about?

The point is more people AGREE with me since they are leaving this state for the SOUTH. You haven't even addressed the lousy state of government in this state. The union stranglehold on all that is good, the stifling taxes, etc. Yeah some areas have good schools but a lot don't. Like I said before if good schools were the only criteria then Iowa, South Dakota, North Dakota and Minnesote would be kicking Illinois' butt and Texas too, but they aren't. NO ONE wants to live in those states including IL and Ohio.

Is it hot in Texas? Yep it is from about the middle of May to the 3rd week of September. How do I know? Because I lived there and I can't wait to get back and I am not a native Texan. When you are loving your gloomy crappy days from November through April with no sun to boot, I'll think of you and the high taxes you are paying, but hey you got great schools! But of course according the the Money Article on great towns all 5 of the Texas towns in the top 25 (compared to one from Illinois) have great schools too. Just thought you'd like to know.

To Anonymous on July 18, 2008 1:00 AM--

Here we go again. Bluebonnet and Indian Paint Brush? All states have their wildflowers. Even southern CA is beautiful with spring wildflowers when they get enough rain to bring them up. Just because two varieties of indigenous plants have adapted over eons of natural selection to bloom and survive in a harsh climate does not make Texas an agricultural oasis. Even a cactus has flowers. And you didn't even mention the azaleas and rhododendrons, which truly are stunning in the spring throughout much of the south.

You busted me on the Ag. thing? I didn't notice. But I did notice you were lumping the cattle industry into your Ag. figures. Separate the crops from the cattle and see how full your bread basket is.

All the same, I don't see the point in endlessly debating this. A great part of Texas has an inhospital and almost hostile climate, but it's not like they can do anything about it. It's obvious I do not like the climate in most of Texas. If I had been at the Alamo, I would have told Crockett and Bowie to let the Mexicans have it. How people could stand to live there before air conditioning is beyond me.

Folks may indeed be leaving other states for the southwest because they follow the jobs; that's what took us there. But we took a relo package and got the hell out at the first opportunity. A lot of the things I value about Naperville and don't mind paying for in taxes you couldn't care less about--the great public schools, a safe community, good city services, and especially the forest preserves, a sore spot with you, I know. If this land existed in many communities in Texas, it would be sold and developed in the blink of an eye. So you won't have to worry about being taxed for such a waste of space in Texas, as they don't exist. And you won't have the added irritation of being taxed for great public schools, safe communities, good city services and environmental safeguards, because they largely don't exist either, unless you plan to relocate to one of the 5 communities listed in Money Magazine. Who knows, maybe those towns have zoning in place. If not, it's just a matter of time before the quality of life in those communities are circling the drain as well.

And I don't think as you do that a lot of Texas' problems are growing pains that will resolve on their own in time. Texas has had booms and busts before, these are not new to the state, and neither are the problems Texas has. It's just the way the old republican guard likes to keep things. And it sounds like that's the way you like things, too, so you and Texas are a good match. You definitely deserve each other.

If by some misfortune you end up in Houston, tho, keep in mind I can direct you to some very cheap real estate next to a chicken processing plant and a water treatment center. Of course the smell will keep you indoors at certain times of the day, but I'm sure the people who bought homes there before those businesses moved in would be more than happy to sell to you. My guess, tho, is you'll join the other snobby elitists, which includes those Texas lawmakers with whom you share a fraternal bond, and choose to live as far away from the urban blight that the business friendly laws and low taxes have created and go to the fine gated communities in the suburbs, where the educated folks who came from other states and got the great jobs live along with anyone else with half and brain and more than two nickels to rub together so they can have better schools for their children and a cleaner and safer community to live in. Sounds kinda like Naperville, doesn't it?

How the hell can Napverille be ranked 5th? When you read these threads on Sun blog no body is happy. Is it because the town spent big bucks getting their name out there to make the list. After reading these threads it sounds like they need to be prozac in the drinking water because everyone is so down. Is that how it really is in Naperville because you all sure make it sound that way.

These threads are good for those who are looking to buy a home. After reading these threads it doesn't sound like it's the place to live. Especially if you are middle class.

When a city increases its taxes by 20% instead of by the CPI index as required under non-home rule, it can do showy things at taxpayer expense to be ranked third in the country by Money Magazine.

Any town that spends wastefully to show off can make the list. I am also sure city officials promote themselves to Money Magazine at taxpayer expense.

If Naperville can make the list and stay within the CPI Index for tax increases, I will give it credit for winning the award. It should not buy the award. It should EARN the award!

With all these McMansions contributing to our tax base and to have a 20% increase in tax last year is a recipe for disaster. Did City Officials tell Money Magazine we socked the taxpayers last year to impress you?

Thornburg Mortgage(TMA) that financed most of these McMansions is on the verge of bankruptcy. I know! I own a 1000 shares and they are down from 28.75 to .26 cents because the McMansion owners including those living in Naperville have not been able to pay their mortgages.

ENOUGH SAID! Let us get our act together! Money Magazine needs to know the whole truth...not part of the truth! Does anyone know how I can contact them?

Again, you fail to address facts as I have pointed out repeatedly. Like I said I don't give a rip if you like Texas or not. Have fun here with a croaking state. Somehow I have a feeling you will bail when you get older. Just like Howard Metzenbaum did in Ohio. Remember him, the ultra Liberal Democratic Senator from Ohio. Remember Howie? Remember how he bashed the RICH and tax evaders and wanted to tax everyone to death? I do. Guess where he domiciled his home to protect his WEALTH FROM THE TAXMAN when he died? FLORIDA!!! LOL!!!! He was the definition of Hubris. Classic Democrat. Couldn't even eat his own cooking. What a scumbag.

Oh, next time you buy a home you might want to make sure there is no chicken processing plant nearby. That's sort of real estate 101.

I know of a more expensive neighborhood, not to advertise it, but Breckinridge is a prime example of a high class Naperville neighborhood that to this decade, and possibly into a third that still has availble home sites On the outside looking in, you wouldn't know that there are still a little number of vacant lots. People pass by the last two cul-de-sacs everyday, overlooking the space in between. Recently, a couple of new houses were built here and there, but that seemed to be it. That left a questionable amount of possible population forgotten. This city still has time to catch up. Maybe building more R$$ class residential zones than single family zones. If the city is really serious about population I suppose there is the going all the way up to R$$$ zoning but I don't know if anyone is in favor of towering high rises all over the place. From a city planning perspective, towering would be the way to go beat Joliet, but then again look at all the vacant commercial around here, and the current housing market. As a resident, hope we don't have historic areas fall prey to skyrises.

http://www.fee.org/publications/the-freeman/article.asp?aid=2803

http://www.reason.com/news/show/29423.html

Houston is the only major city in the country without zoning.

Zoning is all about control, political cronyism, and keeping out the "riff raff". As the above articles point out, no zoning isn't near as bad as everyone likes to make it out to be, but then again hype, sound bites, people that don't know how to think, etc. always seem to have the loudest microphone.

Anonymous,

Sorry, couldn't resist. From that ultra left wing liberal rag the Wall Street Journal last October.

This sprawling metropolis has welcomed developers since 1836 when land speculators Augustus and John Allen founded the city by carving a 6,000-acre swath of coastal prairie into home sites sold for $1 per acre.

Now, that wide-open approach has come back to haunt Houston, the nation's fourth-largest city and the only major U.S. city without zoning laws to control development. Plans to build a 23-story condominium tower among the million-dollar homes of two stately neighborhoods here has appalled affluent residents and put local politicians in the hot seat.

Angry residents have hired a lawyer to fight their cause. Houston Mayor Bill White has pledged to use "any appropriate power under law" to scale back or cancel the development. The problem is, without zoning laws to regulate land use, the city can do little to thwart the project other than apply traffic restrictions and write sternly worded letters.

Are you telling me that if you lived in this neighborhood you would welcome the condo towers, and further, you think this kind of put anything you want to build, anywhere, is a good thing?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119257756005161262.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

To Anon on July 20, 2008 1:46 AM and July 21, 2008 12:53 AM--

Again, you're so focused on being right that you're not taking the time to process what is written here. The chicken processing plant arrived years AFTER the subdivisions and middle school were built, shortly after zoning was defeated in the 90's. The local residents didn't want it. The plant definitely provided more jobs, and as we all know the southwest is really into that, but the presence of the plant--it's very structure, smell, added traffic congestion--lowered the quality of life for the nearby residents and probably lowered their property values as well. Like I said, I would have loved to have known how many of those residents fighting the plant voted against zoning in the first place, since the new subdivisions were really cute and fresh but very small and affordable single family homes and townhouses for lower income folks. They found out the hard way that lack of zoning is a two-edged sword.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane with the links. I really liked the term "self-buffering" as it relates to how people make housing choices to isolate themselves from the elements they don't want to be around, which you refer to as "riff-raff", but what I call the "criminal element". We did that too. Nice community with deed restrictions that worked well enough, just like here, community pool, playground, tennis courts, etc. It was the surrounding community we had no control over. Almost a constant police presence, gangs, shootings, the body in the city park outside our subdivision. The problem centered around a group of low rent apartments nearby and the nightclubs, liquor stores and pawn shops that sprung up around it. No quaint "mom and pop grocery" stores or "shade tree garages" here. Would have LOVED to have seen some of those businesses. The crime got so bad our local big grocery store, part of the Safeway chain of stores, moved out. Maybe zoning creates huge slums, but lack of zoning doesn't prevent them, it just spreads them around more for everyone to enjoy.

I also liked the way the first article brought up the Bellaire and W. University areas as a testament to how zoning does not preserve property values. There's a lot more to that which wasn't discussed, or maybe the authors didn't know about it in the first place since they were just looking at real estate values in the 90s. But Bellaire is its own incorporated town in the center of Houston which does have zoning. It stands as an oasis in a desert. Has it's own police dept., fire dept., schools and taxes. It's known as the West U area because it is just west of Rice University and the Texas Medical Center which employs thousands of teachers and medical personnel. I worked at the TMC for years so I'm very familiar with the area. In the early 80s during what the article refers to as the oil bust, which I remember more as the savings and loan bust, the city of Bellaire remained a very attractive place to live. Homes there, and I'm not talking McMansions, but little frame post WWII homes, where going for incredible amounts of money. I can't remember the exact figures but I know it was hundreds of thousands, and even the people who lived there were amazed. And there were lots of businesses as well. Their downtown looks a lot like Naperville's, with businesses operating out of old homes next to new upscale shops. Bellaire withstood the real estate bust much better than Houston, but the unreal escalation of prices couldn't continue indefinitely. Yes, the price of real estate dropped in the early 90s because it rose to unheard-of highs in the 80s and had to level off and come down eventually. The value of property in Bellaire remains to this day much more valuable than surrounding Houston. That's the rest of the story.

And another reason why the schools and other city services are hurting so much in Houston--their tax base continues to drop because more and more people with good jobs and good salaries are choosing not to live there. They're leaving in droves for the bedroom and gated communities in surrounding towns and communting in for their jobs. Right before we left, this issue was driving the Houston city leaders crazy. Lots of people were WORKING in Houston, as there were lots of jobs, but the majority of the big earners were choosing to LIVE elsewhere, and Houston wasn't benefitting from their property taxes. So they came up with a great idea--annex some of the communities where the well-to-do were living.

One of these newer communities was called Kingwood, about a 45 minute commute north of Houston. McMansions, great schools and city services, a safe area. Kingwood and Houston shared a major highway, so Houston simply annexed the highway and a few feet of land on either side all the way up to Kingwood and took the whole community. Kingwood residents were outraged, since they had moved there to stay out of Houston. But Houston had come to them, gobbling up their tax base like a starving dog. That's how desperate Houston was for revenue. I don't know if this annexing trend continued or if all bedroom comunities now incorporate into their own towns ASAP to fend off the city, but the trend is clear: no zoning may be good for business and to bring in jobs, but people who have a choice will go out of their way to live in areas where there is zoning, as those controls contribute to a better quality of life.

Look into whether the 5 Texas cities listed in the top 25 have zoning. I know the Texas city that was in 3rd place last year, Sugar Land, did. In fact, it would be interesting to know how many towns in the top 25 do have zoning in place. That would probably stand as a testament to this issue better than anything else.

To Thom Higgins on July 21, 2008 10:02 AM--

Hey, thanks for the update. As you can see, the debate of uncontrolled growth vs. quality of life continues.

These kind of struggles between developers and residents aren't new. The developer usually wins. Weird pairings are all over Houston. I was there last Christmas and saw the newest addition--an XXX adult video store next to the upscale Neiman Marcus department store in the Galleria area. It's impossible to miss as it's sign is huge. The Galleria area is well-known for its indoor mall of high end stores around a large ice skating ring that's open year round. The surrounding area has upscale restaurants, office high rises, hotels and other retail businesses, like FAO Schwartz, The Container Store, etc. The corner where the video store is was for years a family burger place with a drive-thru, not upscale like its neighbors, but friendly-looking enough with good burgers; we ate there once. Friends told us a major fight was waged against the adult video store not only by the other businesses but by many residents of Houston who loved the Galleria area and did not want this kind of a business there. As usual, there was nothing that could be done to stop it. So as you're coming down 610 from the airport and you're passing the gorgeous Galleria area, you're now greeted by a huge sign next to the freeway in bold red letters "XXX ADULT VIDEO". Just lovely.

Oh I see. The VOTERS in Houston have turned down zoning at least THREE times but the politicians don't like it. Now I get it. My point EXACTLY! Now you and Higgins are starting to GET it.

As usual the VOTERS don't trust the politicians and those poor little old politicians don't like it, too bad.

By Anonymous on July 23, 2008 11:31 AM

Oh I see. The VOTERS in Houston have turned down zoning at least THREE times but the politicians don't like it. Now I get it. My point EXACTLY! Now you and Higgins are starting to GET it.

As usual the VOTERS don't trust the politicians and those poor little old politicians don't like it, too bad.
------------------------------------

Your point exactly? What exactly is your point? That you're anti-taxes, anti-politicians, anti-any kind of government controls whatsoever, tho I doubt you'd turn down government assistance. You sound like one of those people that wants the government out of their pockets and out of their lives until they need help, then they scream for the gov to step in and fix things for them.

MY point is you simply get what you pay for. Texans don't pay for much, so they don't get much. And it shows in many of their cities. It shows in their miserable school systems and other public services, in their crime rates, in their urban blight. If this is a fair trade-off for you, then by all means relocate there and enjoy it with the other 50 million people.

But to suggest that other states should emulate Texas as a model of desirable growth is insane. Obviously other major cities don't do this because they don't think the Texas model is all that great. Having lived there, neither do I.

As far as the zoning debate goes, like I said, the anti-zoning coalitions fought it like nothing I'd seen before, scaring the hell out of everyone, especially the most vulnerable low-income residents, that zoning would kill growth, cost inner city folks their jobs, cost inner city folks their homes, etc. Here's the quote from your second article, "Zoning will restrict churches and kill jobs in the black community; zoning will segregate minorities; zoning will raise rents and taxes; zoning will kill redevelopment and zoning will breed slums. We do not want Houston to become another Dallas, Detroit, Washington, D.C., Chicago or St. Louis. These are all zoned cities. They all have areas of poverty and slums much worse than Houston."

Notice the anti-zoning movement didn't state that zoning would kill XXX adult video stores, nightclubs, large processing plants, gun selling pawn shops and other undesirable businesses like the No Tell Motel a block from their residential neighborhoods. And as I've already mentioned, Houston has just as many slums and areas of poverty; they're just not contained in a few areas like other cities. They're spread out all over the city for everyone to enjoy, which is why many folks choose to live outside the city and commute in to work. If the lack of zoning was working so well for property owners, why are the majority living in the city low income? Look at who the city folks are who voted against zoning. It would seem these people have already been segregated. Why would Houston need to take such drastic measures as annexing affluent communities dozens of miles outside of its city limits for revenue? And this was done AFTER zoning was defeated. Again, find out how many towns on Money Magazine's top 10 or 25 DON'T have zoning restrictions. There's your answer, like it or not.

If you can't get my point then that's your problem. Have fun hanging out here in Naperville. I'll be thinking about you from my lake house in Austin. Oh and by the way, the waterskiing is great in the summer time. It's especially delightful with lots of sun from October through May.

Have fun paying your taxes with a bunch of old farts in the Midwest! Adios!!!

To Anonymous on July 24, 2008 6:29 PM--

Ohhh, you're in Austin. I loved hill country. That explains a lot.

All the same, I'll gladly stay in Naperville until the kids are grown, and maybe beyond. Safety, education and community are more important to us right now than low taxes and water skiing. Plus, the fall here is my favorite season, I would really miss that in the southwest.

And try not to sound so bitter. We're both lucky enough to be where we want to be. Enjoy!

I'm not in Austin yet, but I hope to be soon!!

DID YA'LL KNOW?????? I WATCHED A PROGRAM ON THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL ABOUT THE BEST PLACES TO LIVE IN THE UNITED STATES AND OUT OF EVERY SINGLE PLACE THERE IS TO LIVE NAPERVILLE ILLINOIS IS THE BEST SAFEST NUMBER ONE PLACE TO LIVE IN THE ENTIRE UNITED STATES ISNT THAT NEAT. I THOUGHT THAT WAS JUST AMAZING I COULDNT BELIEVE OUT OF EVERY STATE EVERY CITY NAPERVILLE ILLINOIS IS NUMBER ONE!!! WAY TO GO NAPERVILLE!!!! AWESOME!!!! PEOPLE IN NAPERVILLE ARE DOING SOMTHING RIGHT, ALL THOUGH THEY DO SAY IT IS VERY EXPENSIVE THAN MOST PLACES BUT THEY HAVE THE BEST SCHOOLS AND THEY ALSO SAY THAT THE PEOPLE ARE QUITE SNOBBY BUT THAT IS JUST HEAR SAY!!!! WELL I JUST WANTED TO SHARE THAT WITH EVERYONE I THINK ITS VERY COOL!!!1

I AM SORRY TO SAY BUT WHEN PEOPLE MOVE THEY ARE NOT WORYING ABOUT BEETLES IN THERE TREES OR SQUIRRELS AND RABBITS IN THEIR GARDENS MAN IF THATS ALL I HAVE TO WORRY ABOT WHEN MOVING I GUESS I HAVE IT MADE LMAO!!!
NAPERVILLE ILLINOIS WAS NAMED THE NUMBER ONE PLACE TO LIVE IN THE ENTIRE UNITED STATES FOR A REASON DESPITE OF ALL THE NUCENSE SQUIRRELS AND RABBITS EATING EVERYONES GARDENS AND BEETLES EATING THE TREES!

AWW COME ON PEOPLE THE TRAFFIC ISNT THAT BAD THERE ARE 2 MAJOR HIGHWAYS THAT ARE RIGHT BY EACHOTHER INTERSECTING 34,30 AND 59 ITS NOT ALL THAT BAD THE TRAFFIC LIGHTS AND THE NEW CONSTRUCTION DO A PRETTY GOOD JOB OF MAKING THE TRAFFIC FLOW SMOOTHLY I DONT LIVE THERE BUT I DO DRIVE THROUGH THERE SOMETIMES I LIVE SOMEWHERE THAT IS WORSE THAN EVERYWEHRE IVE EVER BEEN SOMEONES WANTS TO COMPLAIN ABOUT SOMTHING WITH REAL ISSUES CHECK OUT AURORA ILLINOIS I MOVED HERE 6 YRS AGO WITH MY HUSBAND WHO WAS BORN AND RAISED HERE, IT IS HORIBLE I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE IT. EVERYWHERE YOU LOOK THERE IS NOTHING BUT MEXICANS THAT YOU CANT EVEN COMMUNICATE WITH BECAUSE THEY CANT SPEAK OUR LANGUAGE DO YOU KNOW HOW FRUSTRATING IT IS TO GO TO A GAS STATION OR THE GROCERY STORE OR ANYWHERE AND CANT ASK A QUESTION OR TALK BECAUSE THEY DONT UNDERSTAND YOU I WOULD NEVER SAY WE DONT UNDERSTAND THEM BECAUSE THIS IS THE UNITED STATES AND OUR LANGUAGE IS ENGLISH. OUR COUNTRY HAS BEEN BUILT ON KNOWING THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE AND WE SHOULDNT FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE OR IRRITATED BECAUSE THEY CANT SPEAK OR WRITE IT. EVERYWHERE YOU LOOK IN THE STORES ON THERE SIGNS OR ANY BUISNESS MOST OF THEM HAVE SPANISH SIGNS UP AND NOT EVEN AN ENGLISH ONE WHEN THIS IS AN ENGLISH SPEAKING COUNTRY THEN U MIGHT FIND ONE STORE HERE AND THERE THAT WILL HAVE A SIGHN UP BUT SPANISH IS ALWAYS FIRST THE ENGLISH SIGN IS PUT UNDER THAT ONE. I CANT EVEN GET A JOB ANYWHERE BECAUSE THEY WONT HIRE A WHITE PERSON OR A BLACK PERSON BEFORE A MEXICAN. I WOULD SAY 98% OF THE BUISNESSES ARE RAN BY MEXICANS AND YOU HAVE TO KNOW SPANISH TO WORK THERE OR HOW CAN U COMMUNICATE WITH ANYONE. FOR EXAMPLE I WENT TO AN INTERVIEW AT A HOTEL HOLIDAY INN IT WAS AND THERE WAS ME AND A MEXICAN LADY AND I COULDNT COMMUNICATE WELL WITH THE PERSON GIVING THE INTERVIEW BUT I KNOW I HAD WAY MORE EXPERIENCE THAN THE OTHER LADY THAT WAS THERE THIS IS SOMTHING I HAVE BEEN DOING MY ENTIRE LIFE SO I KNOW THAT I WAS TURNED AWAY BECAUSE OF MY RACE WHEN SHE TOLD ME SORRY BUT THEN SMILED AND SHOOK THE MEXICANS HAND AND SAID WELCOME ABOARD I CANT EXPLAIN HOW IRRATE I WAS. IT IS VERY SAD THAT WE CANT LIVE IN OUR OWN COUNTRY AND SPEAK OUR OWN LANGUAGE AND LIVE IN OUR OWN COMMUNITY AND BE COMFORTABLE DOING IT. THE ENTIRE CITY IS MEXICAN AND ITS NOT JUST ONE FAMILY IN A HOUSE THERE ARE 3-4 FAMILIES IN ONE HOUSE HOW CAN IT BE THIS WAY WHY DOES THE MAYOR OR GOVENOR LET IT BE LIKE THIS. WE HAVE TO DO THINGS THE RIGHT WAY AND B THE BOOK WHY DONT THEY. WE HAVE TO PAY TAXES FOR THESE PEOPLE THAT ARE LIVING WITH 3-4 FAMILIES UNDER ONE HOUSE THE WOMEN/MOTHER OF 6 KIDS A PIECE COLLECT A CHECK AND FOODSTAMPS FROM PUBLIC AID AND WE HAVE TO PAY FOR IT WHILE THEIR HUSBANDS OR BOYFRIENDS FAMILY THEY BRING HERE ILLEGALY GET TO WORK UNDER THE TABLE AND NOT PAY TAXES CAN SOME ONE PLEASE TELL ME HOW DID AURORA ILLINOIS GET LIKE THIS. THERE IS ONE PERSON I KNOW THAT CAME HERE FROM MEXICO LEARNED OUR LANGUAGE STILL IS LEARNING TIL THIS DAY OUR LANGUAGE NOT JUST HOW TO SPEAK AND WRITE IT BUT THE RULES OF HOW TO USE OUR LANGUAGE NOT JUST SLANG BUT REAL VERBS AND ADJECTIVES AND NOUNS AND SHE SAYS THAT THERE ARE SO MANY ILLEGALS HERE AND AS LONG AS WE DO NOTHING AND KEEP LETTING IT HAPPEN ITS GONNA KEEP GETTING WORSE AND SHE SAID THEY COME HERE BECAUSE THERE IS A REAL SIGN IN MEXICO THAT SAYS COME TO AURORA ILLINOIS IT IS LITTLE MEXICO AND EASY WORK AND SHE EVEN TOOK A PICTURE OF IT WHILE SHE WAS VISITING MEXICO. THAT IS JUST SO UNBELIEVABLE. SO PLEASE BEFORE U TALK ABOUT SQUIRRELS AND RABBITS EATING YOUR GARDEN AND LITTLE THINGS THAT MAKE YOU WANT TO MOVE AND FIND SOMTHING MORE IMPORTANT TO COMPLAIN ABOUT. REALLY THINK WHAT ARE SOME REAL ISSUES I HAVE WHERE I LIVE THAT MAKE ME WANT TO MOVE. LIKE THE ISSUES WE HAVE IN AURORA ILLINOIS THAT IS A VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE THAT NEEDS TO BE ADRESSED. AND IS WORTH CONSIDERING MOVING. ALSO YOU NEED TO THINK THAT WHAT YOU SAY IS GIVING YOUR TOWN OR CITY A GOOD/BAD NAME THINK ABOUT WHAT U SAY!