Naperville Township trustees did something unusual Tuesday night. They voted to drastically cut salaries for elected officials. The town supervisor's pay, for example, is being slashed in half to $45,000 from $89,000. The town clerk's salary is being cut to $32,000 from $40,000.
These cuts bring Naperville in line with the compensation afforded other township officials in DuPage County.
However, the cuts did not come without a fight. One trustee, Fred Spitzzeri, verbally attacked another, Gary Vician. Spitzzeri called Vician a hypocrite, since Vician voted for pay raises four years ago. Vician said the plan four years ago was to justify the raises because staff cuts were planned, but those savings were never fully realized, Paige Winfiled reports in The Sun.
What do you make of all this? Does the township board deserve praise for acting responsibly and reducing salaries? Or should it be qualified praise, since the board was correcting irresponsible past actions that inflated salaries in the first place? Or should the board be outright criticized for not doing enough to cut costs?
It's really hard to comment without some basic facts. Are these full time positions? how many hours? What was the staffing situation in 2004? How exactly did those positions change after the raises?
I remember some silly clause for the Supervisor mentioned previously that would allow him, but realistically only him, to keep the salary at $89,000. Is that what happened?
Way to go Gary!! It's about darn time they cut that bloated entity. Next up, get rid of the stupid township drain on taxes.
I would like to see the City of Naperville and specifically the police and fire departments follow suit and reduce some salaries soon!
Hopefully, Mayor George Pradel, a frugal and honest man, will realize something went AWOC in the NPD. There is no reason our police should be the most highly paid police dept. in the state and possibly the nation if you eliminated the towns that are in the process of filing BANKRUPTCY because of unaffordable police and fire salaries!
Instead of just cutting some of the salaries how about eliminating all of them? Let the last Naperville Township employee out the door turn off the lights and lock the door forever.
The whole concept of a township in this day and age is plain stupid and wasteful. Everyone who lives in Naperville township pays township taxes and and the only people who really benefit are the cheapskates who live in unincorporated areas to deliberately avoid paying city taxes. Yet for the most part they still benefit from a lot of the city services they don't pay for and the services they get from the township are better than what the City of Naperville provides to city residents.
The system is upside down and just doesn't make any sense. Even the city and the township have gotten together for things like snow plowing as an example where the township doesn't just plow township roads anymore... the city does all the roads in a certain section and the township does all the roads in a certain section and they call it even.
The city of naperville can provide all the services that the township provides just as well, if not better, and more cost effectively due to economies of scale. There isn't a single township function that could not or should not be transfered to either the local municipalities or to the county. In this day and age we don't need the township to serve as an intermediate middleman. It is long past time to dump the township level of government. Let's do it and move on.
>Does the township board deserve praise for acting responsibly and reducing salaries?
Yes, absolutely, bravo!
And, I would not call people who live in unincorporated areas cheapskates. They are smart enough to know that things like the Carillion are a waste of taxpayer money and the park district and city should not be bailing out failed private groups just because they are their friends. This is government at its worst.
When it comes to government, less is more.
Anonymous on August 14, 2008 10:07 AM,
Your thoughts are always well articualted and impressive in all your posts.
You remind me so much of the Napergate Man!
You seem like a walking Encyclopedia with your depth of knowledge on almost all subjects?
Kind of like the Napergate Man?
You also seem not to want any recognition just like the Napergate Man!
Are you him by any chance?
Keep up the great work whether you are him or not him!
I am EXTREMELY IMPRESSED!
Yes, abolish the Napeville and Lisle Townships....IMMEDIATELY!
Naperville teachers are public servants who are appreciated despite Naperville Township Trustee Fred Spitzzeri's characterization that "teachers spend their careers feeding at the public trough." Politician and personal injury attorney, Spitzzeri who holds down two additional taxpayer supported jobs, was defending his $3,000 per hour compensation from the Naperville Township taxpayers. We the public support the efforts and the committment of our teachers.
How arrogant and disrespectful is he!!!!
Township government should be abolished. But listen to the arguments.
It is only 2% of the total tax bill. Is any waste justified? Also, for an average $7,500 tax bill, that is still $150, good for dinner for two at Catch 35.
Services will need to be provided. What services? The only service is road maintenance. Under Illinois law, the County would have to take over this responsibility in unincorporated areas. I know one gated community in unincorporated Naperville has private roads and the residents have to pay for the services themselves, no burden whatsoever to government. In fact, Naperville did not want to annex this area since the houses were too exclusive (go talk to Peg Price).
The real key? Township government in DuPage County is the ONLY place in Illinois where Republican politics still exists. Patronage is rampant throughout. Where else would people that are politically inept get jobs? They lost control of the state, Democrats get elected to Congress (including a the Republican district of the longest serving Speaker of the House). In short, township government is the employer of last resort for these dying politicians.
Simple to do, get a petition and vote. Watch for the opposition.
What will it take for someone to start finding out what is really going on at the Naperville Township? It looks like alot of secrets!!
Has anyone noticed that ever since Naperville Township built their palace on Water Street that all of the other townships that have seen or heard about it are now envious. I'm constantly reading about other townships that aren't about to be outdone by Naperville or anywhere else for that matter and are now developing their own grandiose plans for replacement quarters.
Look what has been started! Now every darn fool of a township supervisor wants a new building and where will it all end? And at what cost to the citizens of Illinois?
If Cook County can find a way to operate and provide all essential and public safety services to residents and taxpayers of Cook County without a need for any township form of government then the same thing is possible in every other county in the state.
It is time for the state legislature to start working up methods and incentives for county and local municipalities to assume the duties and responsibilities fulfilled by the township.
Less government is better government. The less hands in taxpayers pocket the less waste and corruption we all have to deal with.
Cook County has township government. It functions different than collar county townships, which are different than downstate. You cannot generalize about townships because they are so different in urban and rural areas.
Naperville Township has about 3 employees, and the Assessor has about 7. Most have been there very long and are nearing retirement. Some patronage army!
Lisle Township built a new building after Naperville Township. It is 1-story, on a slab, with no bells and whistles. The Board room is probably about 12 x 20 and holds about 20 people only. Some palace!
With all due respect to Anon 3:53 - Cook County has 30 Township Governments - take a look - and it certainly aren't the townships in cook that have screwed it up - it Stroger and cronies. That's the problem with folks they just aren't informed - or should i say - don't know what they are talking about!
Township government can provide necessary services, but we certainly don't need the lip service from Spitzzo and Vician - you are both an embarrassment! You are not working for the taxpayers - you are working to further your own political career!
"Township government can provide necessary services, but we certainly don't need the lip service from Spitzzo and Vician - you are both an embarrassment!"
What services do townships provide that couldn't be provided by the city or the county?
What services do townships provide that couldn't be provided by the city or the county?
The biggest service is allowing people in semi-rural areas near towns like Naperville, Lisle, Downers Grove, Wheaton, etc., to lead the less restrictive life style allowed by the township. There is no township ordinance officer driving around looking for any little infraction to write a ticket on.
Many here have said the townships should just be absorbed into the nearby towns, but I wonder if they would give up the extra freedoms if they had them for years just to stop the city folk from whining. I don't know why they are whining, as the township people all pay property taxes just as the city people do in spite of claims here that they are getting free services.
Sorry, I phrased things wrong in an earlier post. I did incorrectly state that there are no townships in Cook County, which is not the case. What I had intended to state was that there are no townships in the City of Chicago, a huge area that would encompass at least 7 townships in DuPage County. My apology for letting my fingers getting ahead of my thoughts.
Under Illinois State law it is up to each county to decide whether the county will be subdivided into townships or not. DuPage County could abolish townships if they wanted to. Not all counties in Illinois have townships. In fact about 15% of Illinois counties currently are operating without a township layer of government... and guess what? They are getting along just fine without townships!
When townships do exist they are charged with providing recreation, social services, transportation, garbage disposal, sewage, health and sanitation, building inspection, police, fire, library, and a few other minor services.
Naperville Township only provides a few of the services it is responsible for providing. It has already abdicated responsibility for health, recreation, library, sewage, fire protection, law enforcement, and building inspection to just name a few. Of the few services that Naperville Township does provide none of them really fall within the realm of either essential services or even public safety. There isn't a single service being provided by the township that could not be provided by either the City of Naperville or DuPage County.
Naperville Township simply is neither essential nor critical to the average taxpayer or resident. What it is, is just one more layer of local government taxing us that we could all do without.
Ken,
Thanks for your response. But wouldn't the people living in those areas still have the same freedoms if the townships' responsibilities were transferred to the county?
JQP
Ken is confusing unincorporated Dupage enclaves and considering them township areas. Where Naperville is not providing a service such as police in the unincorporated areas, Dupage fills in...not the Naperville Township or the Lisle Township which also is involved uselessly in Naperville.
I agree with the Main Anonymous.....townships are USELESS!
John Q.:
When I lived in Lisle township, they worked with the county. The advantage for the county is that the township handles the road responsibilities such as repaving and snow plowing. That way, the tax burden falls on the township, not the whole county. Also, in a snow storm, the township roads get plowed much quicker than even the major county roads. So, while the freedoms might be the same, the services would be worse.
Its a shame that the Naperville Township cut back on services that they are supposed to be providing. They cut back so that they are paid better!!! THEY ALL NEED TO GO!!!
It used to be that the township would plow township roads and unincorporated areas. That is not the case any more. Now township plows cover an agreed upon section and plow all of the roads in that section, except state roads of course. Naperville plows all the roads in other sections, including township and unincorporated roads in those sections. Yes, they figured out that it is faster and more cost effective to do it that way which negates the argument that it would be slower if done by the county.
The other argument that the tax burden falls on the township, not the whole county is pretty lame. My federal taxes pay for interstate highways in other states. My Illinois taxes pay for state highways in downstate Illinois. There is no real or appreciable net difference if the county paid for such roads instead of townships.
Every single function of township government could be provided at the county level. All township government does is add a layer of waste and duplicity. If all of the nine DuPage township road crews were suddenly transferred to the county I am confident it wouldn't take too long for them to determine that they do not need nine township transportaion centers, that they can get the same amount of work accomplished with fewer people and fewer vehicles, etc. etc. All taxpayers would benefit from gaining the economies of scale by having one transportation department.
The same thing is true of township assessors. Not all townships are the same size, have the same number of municipalities, the same number of structures, etc. etc. Yet every township has an assessor and related staff. Move the job to the county level and all we need is one assessor and a related staff. Again, look at the savings from gaining economies of scale.
Government simply will not reinvent itself. It's model for doing business has not changed much since it's inception. It is going to be up to the public to demand change and reform. It is going to be up to the public to demand an end to duplicate and wasteful government practices. Government in Illinois needs to become leaner and more efficient. We all are paying way too much in taxes as it is. It is in every taxpayers best interest to demand the absolute best use of each and every tax dollar our government collects.
You have a point, Anonymouse. Why not just shift all township, village, and city government functions to one central location. Springfield would be a good place as the actions of the legislators there show that a central government is always fair towards every region under its authority.
I imagine that at such time you are willing to cede all government services and functions to Dupage County, the townships will be willing to do the same. Unless you are willing to give up Naperville's independence to a central authority, don't expect the townships to do the same.
I am willing to cede Naperville's independence. In fact, in a prior post I suggested that Naperville, Aurora, Lisle, Bolingbrook, Plainfield and any other towns bordering Naperville consolidate and join together.
We would instantly become the second largest city in Illinois and have immense political clout to finally fix our infrastructure problems. Instead of five city managers, five chiefs of police, five fire chiefs, etc, etc. etc. we would only need one. And that would be just a start as to how much money we could spend on administrative costs alone. We would not need five human resource departments, we would not need five finance departments, we would not need five legal departments, etc., etc. etc.
Studies have shown that Illinois has more local levels of government than any other state in the union. All of these layers and level cost us dearly thru waste, patronage, corruption, and simple inefficiency. It is time to start trimming the government fat and simplifying local government.
If you notice I have not yet suggested cutting a single program, benefit, or entitlement. These changes would be transparent to citizens who use or otherwise need or depend upon these government services. The only thing that would change is which government organization would actually provide or deliver these services.
We all need to face the reality that the cost of government salaries are now competitive with the private sector. At the same time the benefit and retirement programs are second to none with what is available in the private sector. We are all funding a level of living that few among actually get to enjoy ourselves these days. A few are benefiting immensely at the expense of the many. The salary, benefit, and retirement programs all need to be brought into line with what private sector employees receive before we all end up bankrupting ourselves and selling our own financial future down the river.
"We all need to face the reality that the cost of government salaries are now competitive with the private sector. At the same time the benefit and retirement programs are second to none with what is available in the private sector. We are all funding a level of living that few among actually get to enjoy ourselves these days. A few are benefiting immensely at the expense of the many. The salary, benefit, and retirement programs all need to be brought into line with what private sector employees receive before we all end up bankrupting ourselves and selling our own financial future down the river."
AMEN!
If you identify yourself and run for the Council, I will campaign for you! Where do you want political contributions sent to?
We all need to face the reality that the cost of government salaries are now competitive with the private sector.
This has been discussed before, ad infinitum. Corporate America has let its benefits be cut by millionaire CEO's by not standing up for themselves. Government workers have unions that do a fine job of keeping their workers compensation at current levels instead of accepting mass cuts as the corporate workers have. As long as different cities compete for qualified personnel, this will keep happening. Middle management people are a dime a dozen; qualified government agencies like police and fire departments have to find people willing to put up with the abuse of the same people they protect.
Anonymouse, would you really cede control of Naperville if Plainfield was put in charge of your new utopia? Would you still be happy when Plainfield took all the newly pooled taxes and built needed railroad over/underpasses and on/off ramps for I55? It is easy to say you are willing, but in reality I think you would only be willing if your area of the new city benefited.
Ken,
You obviously know very little about unions. I don't disagree that the greed of corporate boardrooms across America have sold out American workers in the name of investors, many of them short term investors, for the sake of long term employees, long term customers, and long term reputation.
At the same time we as consumers have demanded lower prices, higher quality, better service, better warrantees, etc. As investors we too have demanded a greater return on our money, even if the amount we have pales in comparison to top corporate executives.
Do you think anyone who has lost their job, lost benefits, or had a pay cut is happy about it? The fact is that in the current economic climate and legal environment there is little or anything anyone can do about it. And that includes unions. Unions that make excessive demands find plants shut down and moved to other parts of the country or more commonly these days oversees. When that happens the jobs are gone forever.
There used to be a day when unions could protect workers. Those days are long gone. Go ahead and strike and a judge will either order the strikers back to work or give the company permission to hire replacement workers. More and more union jobs in the government sector are being done away with by outsourcing and privatizing. Chicago just privatized the Chicago Skyway. For profit firms are now running state and federal prisons.
Ken wake up and pay attention to what is happening all around you. Even public school systems are starting to be privatized. It is the only way to break the union back and get rid of incompetent teachers that are being protected by their union. Instead of holding its members accountable these unions are now jeopardizing the livelihood of other members at the expense of a few bad apples. Sadly this is the only method that will work for most of these poor families to ever even be close to seeing that their children receive a quality education.
There used to be a day in this country when union workers too great pride in their work and the companies they worked for. Unfortunately those people have mostly died off, retired, or moved on to other work. Those who have replace them, by and large, simply do not have the same work ethic and union employment has become synonymous with inefficient, lazy, slow, corrupt, and a few other unpleasant adjectives. Look at how corrupt unions came very close to destroying the convention industry in Chicago.
Just remember every union contract has an expiration date. More and more union contracts are not being renewed for a variety of reasons. A great many of the union positions in the city of Naperville; whether it be the city, park district, schools, etc. could very well be eliminated, outsourced, or privatized. There are no guarantees for any union workers, public or private.
More than likely if municipalities did merge they would take on a total new identity. There would be some growing pains no doubt. I remain convinced that the scale of economies and the potential savings by fewer duplicate department, fewer duplicate administrators, etc would save taxpayers an enormous amount of money long term and would also allow many infrastructure problems to be identified and resolved over a greater land area than what any of these individual municipalities is able to accomplish at present.
It is far from unusual for towns to change their name. It is even less unusual for towns to change the location of their borders. School districts merge all the time. And every time the merge it is for financial reasons. Another fact is the overwhelming majority of the population currently living in Naperville and all of the surrounding towns were not born here. They were born somewhere else and decided to move here. They have no long term or emotional attachment to the name of the town they live in. Fact is, I moved here too, and even the Naperville I remember from years ago no longer resembles what we have today. So the name is a historic remembrance at best.
I remember when Comcast cable was Jones plus the other owners inbetween. Does it really matter that I no longer make my monthly check out to Jones and now write it to Comcast? Nicor could be bought out by someone and I'd send my gas check to the new owner. So what if I pay my electric bill to someone else. So what if we have to change the names on a few buildings. It happens all the time in corporate america.... mergers and acquisitions is the name of the game. I'm just advocating that the management model what has worked so well to trim fat and eliminate waste in corporate america be applied to municipal government. We have everything to gain and very little to loose.
Actually, Anonymouse, I know quite a bit about unions. As long as corporate unions have a presence in a profitable company, such as UPS, Waste Management, etc., they pretty much get what they want. Even the unions in the auto industry are keeping a lot of benefits that they would be wiser to give up if they want the corporations that keep them afloat to survive. How many airlines have not been able to work around their unions and gone out of business? How many of those airlines have been reborn after they went out? By the way, when Jones switched to Comcast, the union didn't disappear. If Nicor or Com Ed switched corporate owners, the unions don't disappear. They just get a different name on the check that pays their dues.
All that aside, government unions are a different animal. It is easy for you to say contracts end, but what kind of employees will government agencies get when they dump the union pay and benefits? Especially when only one city does it, and those employees can take their experience to another city and still get a good job.
As I have stated before, all the middle management and other white collar workers that scoffed at unions are now jealous of the fact that the unions have been able to protect their workers. Now that the spineless white collar workers have meekly accepted all the cutbacks in corporate America, they want the government workers they once disparaged to do the same.
What you and others won't admit is that government wages and benefits haven't caught up to private sector wages. Private sector wages have dropped down to government level wages. To bad all the white collar people didn't realize the value of collective bargaining until it was to late.
All this brings us to the bottom line, which is that as much as you think that government should run like a corporation, it never will be. First of all, you have the elected officials that will always protect their fiefdoms. Then you have the actual working employees that get the necessary work done, and are protected by unions. Even the fantasy floated here about putting the park district under city control would not bring about any less actual working employees, and the park district employees would get their wages raised to the city scale. If you want a good example, look at how many people make more money because they became employees of the homeland security department. The only time government will shrink is in the rare cases where a town goes bankrupt, and even then they have trouble getting rid of the union employees, as is being shown right now in Gary,Indiana.
If you really think that combining municipalities will shrink the costs of government, you really don't understand how government works.
Mulling over the salary blogs...whether townships remain or not you have to give credit to Gary Vician for wanting to cut spending. But I thought George Porter was the Supervisor...where's he been? Is Fred Spitzzeri "running" the meetings? Who's getting paid to be the Supervisor, Porter or Spitzzeri? And if the Supervisor salary and the Clerk's salary have been cut, why have the Assessor (over $100k???) and the Road Commissioner been given a raise? Doesn't make sense to cut some and increase others, does it? And what about the trustees--still making the same amount?
Ken,
Your rather long winded rant of personal opinion only helped confirm how little you actually know about unions and government in our current environment. Go ahead and keep writing because the more you write the more you demonstrate that your narrow-minded opinions reflect the shortcoming of your own personal bias and out-of-date information.
The world is changing all around you and you have a lot of catching up to do.
Well, Anonymouse 10:17am, my long winded rant was in response to yours. I have addressed reality; you are pushing a personal fantasy of what would happen in your perfect little world. Instead of attacking me, why don't you try to back up your plan? I used real examples in my "rant". Why don't you try to do the same?
Yes, Ken, you used real examples in you rant. And I do humbly acknowledge that when it come to the specious argument you are the grand master of Naperville Potluck.
Funny, Anonymouse, you claim my arguments are specious, yet you can never disprove them.
Be careful Ken. Using absolute words like never can come back and haunt you big time.
Face the facts. Between 2005 and 2006, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, unions lost 326,000 members in America. Of these 274,000 were from the private sector and 52,000 were from the government sector. Additional union jobs were lost in 2006, 2007, and even more are being lost right now in 2008. And more union jobs will be lost next year, and the year after, and the year after...
Between 2005 and 2006 the total workforce that was unionized fell from 12.5 to 12.0%. In the private sector it fell from 7.8 to 7.4% and from 36.5 to 36.2% in the government sector. This trend line has been headed downward for almost 50 years. There has not been one single up tick in this trend line in any of these intervening years.
Guys like you refuse to acknowledge that unions are on their way out in America. And there is simply nothing you can do about it except stand there and watch it happen. Union membership is at a historic, all time low. And that is despite all the work unions are doing to organize new members. In fact, in 2005 unions lost 4 members for every new one they were able to recruit. Another fact is that unions try all the time to organize workplaces. However they don't file a petition for an election until they think they have a really good chance at winning the election. Of the petitions that were filed in 2005 the unions were only able to win 60% of them. It is unknown how many organizing attempts never got to the petition stage. Despite the fact that the number of potential union jobs covered by the NLRB grew by 2,300,000 in 2006 the unions were only successful in recruiting 87,172 new members... which is less than 4% of all eligible.
When asked why these were the Top Ten Reasons workers don't want a union:
10. The union doesn't write my paycheck.
9. Unions would rather cause problems than work together.
8. Union scale means the best workers are carrying the worst.
7. The people who want a union really need one.
6. Too corrupt.
5. Too political, too liberal and too partisan.
4. Unions are only about power and money for the ones who run the union.
3. Unions are negative about everything but how great they are.
2. I like to work steady.
1. I've got too much self respect.
It's no wonder why we see more and more American workers wearing pins and buttons that say:
"America works best union free".
Well, Anonymouse, that certainly is a nice long winded rant against unions, but it does not disprove any of my arguments. Try again, as the "never" is still correct and has yet to haunt me.
Sorry Ken, these are all solid facts straight from our federal government and can be verified by anyone. Facts always trump personal opinion, emotions, and persuasive arguments. You choose to interpret these facts as a rant against unions, yet all of these statistics were compiled by unionized government workers. Statistics don't have an opinion pro or con unions.
Maybe you should read this again since you obviously didn't comprehend it the first time.
Face the facts. Between 2005 and 2006, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, unions lost 326,000 members in America. Of these 274,000 were from the private sector and 52,000 were from the government sector. Additional union jobs were lost in 2006, 2007, and even more are being lost right now in 2008. And more union jobs will be lost next year, and the year after, and the year after...
Between 2005 and 2006 the total workforce that was unionized fell from 12.5 to 12.0%. In the private sector it fell from 7.8 to 7.4% and from 36.5 to 36.2% in the government sector. This trend line has been headed downward for almost 50 years. There has not been one single up tick in this trend line in any of these intervening years.
Guys like you refuse to acknowledge that unions are on their way out in America. And there is simply nothing you can do about it except stand there and watch it happen. Union membership is at a historic, all time low. And that is despite all the work unions are doing to organize new members. In fact, in 2005 unions lost 4 members for every new one they were able to recruit. Another fact is that unions try all the time to organize workplaces. However they don't file a petition for an election until they think they have a really good chance at winning the election. Of the petitions that were filed in 2005 the unions were only able to win 60% of them. It is unknown how many organizing attempts never got to the petition stage. Despite the fact that the number of potential union jobs covered by the NLRB grew by 2,300,000 in 2006 the unions were only successful in recruiting 87,172 new members... which is less than 4% of all eligible.
When asked why these were the Top Ten Reasons workers don't want a union:
10. The union doesn't write my paycheck.
9. Unions would rather cause problems than work together.
8. Union scale means the best workers are carrying the worst.
7. The people who want a union really need one.
6. Too corrupt.
5. Too political, too liberal and too partisan.
4. Unions are only about power and money for the ones who run the union.
3. Unions are negative about everything but how great they are.
2. I like to work steady.
1. I've got too much self respect.
This country thrives on capitalism, democracy, and a republic form of government. Unions are organized to run like a socialist state at best and a communist state at worst. It is no wonder those who truly understand and appreciate patriotism and citizenship have little tolerance for the union mentality.
Another startling reality that is causing unions to loose sleep at night is that 16.1 per cent of union workers fall into the 55 to 64 age group. Another 15.7 per cent fall into the 45 to 54 age group. Yet the 16 to 24 age group has only 4.8 per cent union workers. The unions are not only dwindling, they are also aging. Young people have no interest in joining a union. Without enough new members to feed the union pension money engine even union pension system will go broke eventually. So go ahead and sing the praises about workers who carefully choose their career and the company where they worked. In the end, if they outlive their bankrupt union pension who is going to take care of them? And the government union members were so nearsighted with their lobbying that they won't even have the cushion of Social Security to fall back upon.
Union workers don't have it any better than anyone else and don't have any guaranteed security either; not today, not tomorrow. Sure the government union workers and retirees are arrogant enough to assume the taxpayer will bail out their retirement system when it runs out of money. Increasing though the average taxpayer has had enough. In a democratic republic the will of the majority of the average taxpayers will prevail over the protests of a small minority of city union workers.
Get used to it. Get used to change. It is coming. Do your best to ensure your kids and grandkids get a good education so they won't get trapped into working a union job and will be able to take financial care of themselves.
"America works best union free".
Again, Anonymouse, a nice specious rant against unions, but your rant has little to do with the discussion on townships, or even on your less than brilliant idea of combining five or six towns and cities to supposedly reduce the government and city employees. If you had any reading comprehension at all, you would realize that I already stated that many unions are on the way out. It was that part where I noted that the big three unions were helping to usher in their demise. If unions are dead, as you claim, why did UPS just ink a new and better contract with their employees? Why do the garbage men keep getting better contracts?
As I stated before, the corporate unions that are associated with manufacturing and automotives are naturally going to lose membership, as these companies lose market share and ship jobs overseas. Of course, at the same time, they cut benefits and jobs for middle management. You seem to think that 52,000 is a large number of government employees, but I have to wonder how that compares to the number of middle management employees that have lost their jobs. One only has to look at the former AT&T campus right in Naperville to see the destruction of layoffs. These same people that lost their paper pushing jobs are the ones crying about people in safe government jobs. How many of those vaunted college educated(just another piece of over rated paper)people are out of jobs with no hope of finding one that pays as well as a garbage man's? This is all part of the change you are cheering. By the way, unions improved the blue collar worker's working environment years ago; that's why sweatshops moved out of the country, excluding the ones that use illegal labor. America works best with a mix of union and non-union labor so they balance each other out.
Unfortunately for you, this has little to do with the debate at hand. While major cities may benefit from privatization, smaller cities, towns, and townships won't see the same benefit. While the corporate unions may disappear in some cases, you still need police, fire, and public works employees, and the majority of those will stay union. If you think that the public cares, you obviously haven't looked at the dismal voter turnout over the years. If you think that people that have a public pension taken away from them wouldn't end up in the social security system, you really don't know how government works.
So, Anonymouse, while you can try to turn this into an anti-union topic all you want, it still isn't going to change the bottom line, which is the fact that you will not be able to get rid of townships or government employees. I am still waiting for the facts from you to show otherwise. 'Never' still stands.
Yes Ken, the more you post the more you convince me that you really do not know very much about unions, government, and more importantly current trends especially among workers.
Yes, you certainly are consumed with subjective specious arguments, filled with your own personal opinion and bias yet unsupported by any hard objective facts. Obviously you know a lot about debate and how to present a convincing argument.
The single biggest fallacy with the entire theme of your argument is that you remain convinced that you are able to predict the future based upon your own personal understanding of history. There are two problems with this logic. The first relates to a poor understanding of actual history and the second relates to the inability of past history to always be an accurate prediction of what will happen in the future.
People with small, narrow minds like to take the easy way out and suggest that either change isn't possible or that it can only happen in a manner based upon past history... which is total rubbish... and mostly is because the work to find other solutions is simply too much brain work for them.
Thankfully there are plenty of other people in our society who think and act differently. They are able to think big and envision a different future state and lead people to it. They will lead us to the solutions that you can not see much less even imagine. The worst part for you, Ken, is that you won't even see them coming.
Still no facts to argue with, Anonymouse? As usual, can't attack the message, so attack the messenger. Calling me narrow minded doesn't refute the fact that you can never prove me wrong. Two rants on unions, with repeated parts to make the second one just as long as the first, does not prove that townships need to go. The anti-union rants also do not show public employees begging to get rid of their unions either.
Will there be changes? Of course, and there should be. There are things wrong with the pension system, and they should be fixed. Will you and your ilk get rid of the present pensions, townships, and combine a bunch of towns into one? Only in your fantasy world, especially, as you yourself imply, you are waiting for other people to enact these sweeping changes you envision.
Anonymous,
Don't waste your time on Ken!
The Napergatians figured Ken had a small narrow mind long ago before you became an active participant on this blog site!
The man never made any sense.
He is trying to make a comeback on your shoulders.
Just ignore him!
Debating him will bear no fruits!
You are better off debating the trunk of a tree on the Dupage River!
In other words, Another Anonymous, the napergatian cult debated me, and lost, called me a liar, and were proven wrong numerous times. My use of facts seems to upset you and the rest of the cult members to no end. I don't have to "make a comeback" as I never was gone.
Another Anonymous,
Yep, you figured out Ken and described him very accurately. Actually I realized some time ago that Ken was intellectually incapable of anything even close to an actual debate. So I have fun playing with him, now and then, with the only thing he is capable of offering... an opinionated conversation. The funny thing about it is the more I jerk his chain the more he comes back for more! He must enjoy it. I guess we know who wears the pants in his family. What a hoot!
I just enjoy showing that facts trump babble in any debate, Anonymouse. If you had to rely on facts instead of your usual drivel and insults, you would have nothing to say. In a battle of wits, you are sadly unarmed. It figures you would hook up with another poster who seems to have trouble with facts. I don't think a mental midget like you can even reach my chain, but I like to help out the mentally deficient people like yourself as I know it gives you a sense of accomplishment when some one actually pays attention to what you say.
Ken,
You simply don't know and don't understand the difference between a fact and your own personal opinion. Just because you think it or say it or write it does not make something a fact.
I don't have trouble with facts. You do. I can and do support my side of an argument with cold, hard, objective facts. Meanwhile you have an enormous credibility problem because you do not write about facts, rather you write long-winded rants that are based upon your own personal opinion. And then when you run out of opinion you resort to another of your usual and feeble attempts to discredit by laying on the childish insults.
Go back to any one of your earlier posts and identify even one fact that you can support with an independent reference.
Then come on back for more. Yes, I do have your chain firmly in my hand.
Since all my facts are actually facts instead of personal opinion, that is easily done, Anonymouse. After your long rant about unions, I mentioned the teamsters new contract as proof that strong companies still have strong unions. Here is the independent reference you demanded:
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/business/s_583849.html
I would ask you to do the same, but you wouldn't know a cold, hard, fact if it hit you in the face, as your posts show.
Instead, I will ask you to disprove any of the facts I have mentioned, with an independent source, per your insistence. Should be an easy task since you claim I make it all up.
I must admit that I am guilty of childish insults in my 9/1/08 10:26 am post. I figured if I talked to you in your language, you might realize how foolish you look. Obviously I was wrong.
As for coming back, you always react to my posts with the personal attacks. It seems that you cannot even discern the simple sequence of a thread, but somehow that does not surprise me. I guess we both are wrong at some point though, as you assume you are brilliant in these threads, and I assume I am debating someone with at least minimal intelligence. As I said, we both are wrong.
Ken,
Your admission of being wrong is a step in the right direction. It is just a shame that you are also wrong about the reasons why you were wrong.
It's commendable that you are a dependable guy and we can definitely count on you to be consistently wrong. True to your consistency though, you couldn't even muster an honest and sincere apology without including a childish backhanded insult.
Will you please let me and everyone else on Potluck know when your are ready to bring your game up to something that even closely resembles a serious debate? As I've said before all this has been is an opinionated conversation.
Ken,
Are you OK! You seem to be losing it again. The Anonymous you are fighting is as tough as the Napergatians you tried to take on a few months back.
When he is done he will have you converted to a mop with which he will proceed to mop the marble floors at City Hall with!
First you call the Napergatians a "cult" and now you are calling Anonymous a "mouse"....over and over again! Obviously, not a misspelling!
I suggest you go back and play with your Barbie Dolls, Kenny Boy! They may show you the respect that you will not obtain from your fellow bloggers.
Grow up Kenny Boy and cease and desist with your constant name calling!
Funny, Anonymouse, I did exactly what you asked and provided a link. Now that you have been shown to be wrong, you have to go back to attack mode. My challenge still stands, and obviously you are unable to meet it. As I have told you many times before, just because you insist you are right does not make it so. By the way, of course this is an opinionated debate, because that's what these forums are for. I just choose to back my opinions with facts; you choose to attack people because you have no facts. I have waited patiently for you to do anything that remotely resembles a debate, yet you continue to disappoint me.
Another Anonymous, I call Anonymouse that because he is afraid to differentiate himself from all the other anonymous users. You have at least made yourself identifiable so all can recognize you and your factless rants. By the way if the following is what you consider grown up, I think I am ages ahead of you.
"I suggest you go back and play with your Barbie Dolls, Kenny Boy! They may show you the respect that you will not obtain from your fellow bloggers.
Grow up Kenny Boy and cease and desist with your constant name calling!"
I notice that you can't even follow your own advice about name calling. Since that is standard napergate cult tactics, it does not surprise me. Speaking of the cult, the napergatians were not tough at all. They were like you, capable of making up things and acting like they were fact. Anonymouse will never mop up anything as he uses the same tactics and is incapable of true debate.
If either of you wish to return to the debate about townships, I will be happy to do so. If both of you persist in your personal vendetta against me, I will be the adult and ignore your mindless drivel.
Ken,
I'm really not sure why the mods on Potluck tolerate all the garbage that spews forth from your keyboard. Just know that you would have flamed out by now on just about any other public forum due to your constant abuse of other posters.
Focus on the topic not the posters. Stick to the subject. Pick your words and your fights more carefully. Personally I am sick and tired of reading all of your snotty remarks either suggesting or assuming what other posters think or why they are motivated to take their positions. If you can't be nice, courteous, and respectful I hope the mods stop publishing the garbage you continue to submit.
Why is it that you continuously provoke a fight on just about every thread in which you participate? Probably at least half of what is already posted under your name ought to be taken down and dumped in the trash. And don't waste the time with your silly woe is me arguments. You know full well that you deliberately pick words to needle, provoke, and antagonize other posters. Then when they try to defend themselves you play a constant game of spinning and turning things around. We all see you for what you are; nothing more than a cyber bully.
If you want to continue to contribute to Potluck then you better clean up your act and show others some respect. Otherwise I hope you get banned for good. With you gone the quality of Potluck would improve greatly.
What did all that drivel have to do with the topic of this thread, Anonymouse?
Ken,
That drivel has everything to do with this thread and every other thread that you have hijacked, taken off on a side tangent, or otherwise attempted to spin out of control with your continuing nonsense.
If you want to discuss or argue the issues, be my guest. You cross the line with your snotty remarks, personal attacks, and disrespect for other posters and I am going to become the worst nightmare you can possibly imagine. And I have a lot of experience at being your worst nightmare. I am going to call you out every time you cross the line and I'm going to ask everyone else on Potluck to do the same. If enough noise is generated by your behaviour the mods will have no choice other than to take action.
The choice is yours on whether you stay and learn to play nice with others or get run off the forum. You have been posting on borrowed time for way too long as it is. Personally, I'm betting you simply don't have the ability to restrain yourself and exhibit some maturity. As a result you will get run off and it will actually be your own undoing. So go ahead. Prove me right. Prove me wrong. The choice is yours.
That is truly funny, Anonymouse. All one has to do is read through this thread to see you hijacked it with you anti-union rant. Every time you pursue your vendetta against me, you go off on wild tangents trying to prove me wrong. I even took up your challenge here when you stated I had no facts, and provided a link. I notice that you couldn't pass my challenge. I realize you are a legend in your own mind, but your posts do nothing except show what a mindless person you are.
I already responded to your self righteous little rant about my "behaviour"(sic) on the other thread you posted it on. Are you going to back down from this challenge like you did when you threatened me with physical harm? By the way, when did Ted appoint you the Potluck police? Seems you are taking on a lot of authority that you can't back up. Good luck with your cyber stalking. You seem to take it very seriously. I'll let you in on a secret, Anonymouse. It's just the internet.
The second sentence of the second paragraph of the post made on September 10, 2008 12:06 AM is a an unsubstantiated lie.
Nope, anonymouse, the the threat can be seen on the Drew Peterson arrested on gun charge thread posted 7/18/2008 at 11:14 pm.
Anonymous,
I knew Ken lies, distorts and fabricates, but this latest lie is so blatant.
He must think if he writes it, bloggers automatically believe what he writes.
I like the comment to Host Ted by a different anonymous on another thread, who suggested to Host Ted not to publish such posts by Ken!
I think Host Ted is on the verge of being fed up with Blogger Ken!
I believe he, along with his old buddies, is why the 300 Napergatians skipped ship!
Exchanges with Ken are truly a waste of time. They found better things to do with their time!
Another Anonymous, since you have knowledge of my lies, distortions, and fabrications, please put your money where your mouth is and prove your charges.
I like your cute attempt at claiming there is another Anonymouse that is involved in the vendetta you and Anonymouse have against me, but anyone with half a brain realizes only you two are involved.
Anyway, I am awaiting proof of your charges. Of course, if you two cyber stalkers want to just debate, I am open to that too. However, even though you both claim that is what you want, your posts constantly prove your claims to be lies.
Kennymouse,
Get over yourself! Move on! You had 300 Napergatians upset with you. Is that not enough?
I can differentiate the various Anonymous' from their style of writing. That other one was a different anonymous!
How do you like being called Kennymouse. I did not create Kennymouse or Barbie Doll. I just repeated what others said about you as it seemed fitting!
Let try to focus, Ken! Please!!!
Ken,
First example of your lies:
"Nope, anonymouse, the the threat can be seen on the Drew Peterson arrested on gun charge thread posted 7/18/2008 at 11:14 pm."
Nothing can be "seen" on this post. Nothing. No "threat". Not a single word to support your allegation of "physical harm". No, not one single word.
Second example of your lies:
"I like your cute attempt at claiming there is another Anonymouse that is involved in the vendetta you and Anonymouse have against me, but anyone with half a brain realizes only you two are involved."
First off, I wasn't aware that you were a murderer nor was I aware that you had murdered one of my family members AND one of Another Anonymous' family members. Know knowing that does help explain why you think Another Anonymous and I have a vendetta against you.
You see Ken, you have created a word game for yourself that you can not win. You have created a situation in which you can not even defend yourself. The more you attempt to spin, twist, distort, sensationalize, and negatively exploit what others post the deeper the hole you are digging for yourself and the harder it becomes for you to back out gracefully from the mess you have created for yourself. What you have been attempting to use as leverage to assert your side of an argument is blowing up in your face, working against you, and you are powerless to stop the train wreck that is about to happen.
A word to the wise. I've been overly and deliberately gentle and patient with you up to now. Now it is time for you to clean up your act once and for all. Address the issues. Stick to the facts. Show other posters the same respect you expect in return. Stop using personal, demeaning, and provocative language. Stop the twisting, distortion, spinning and exploitation. Do these things and I and everyone else will look forward to discussing any issue with you.
Another Anonymous, your silly name calling doesn't bother me. It just shows me how low you have to go to try to win. It also doesn't bother me that whatever the true number of napergatians, certaninly not even close to 300, don't like me. This is not a popularity contest, a grade school playground, or whatever else your actions indicate it is. It is an opinion board where people go to give opinions and debate them. I keep hoping one day you will do that, but I must admit that you disappoint me almost daily with your childish posts.
Anonymouse, why would you think that I wouldn't point your threat out in this thread as well as that one? Here it is, again:
I never back down from a bully and actually take a lot of pleasure in taking them down. So bring it on. Heck bring your buddy Drew along for all I care. You and he are both a real piece of work.
Seeing that you want to play the literal game lately, it shouldn't be hard for you to admit that when you tell me to bring someone with me, you are literally asking for a physical meeting. I understand that you will try to deny this, especially as I have no problem meeting you as I told you then, but it is quite obvious you wanted to threaten me with the idea you were ready to move from cyber stalking to reality.
Speaking of your penchant for the literal, as much as there are many meanings for idioms, there are also different meanings for simple words too. From dictionary.com(since you like sources):
ven·det·ta /vɛnˈdɛtə/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ven-det-uh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a private feud in which the members of the family of a murdered person seek to avenge the murder by killing the slayer or one of the slayer's relatives, esp. such vengeance as once practiced in Corsica and parts of Italy.
2. any prolonged and bitter feud, rivalry, contention, or the like: a political vendetta.
Seems that you went for definition #1 and hoped that no one knew about #2. Of course, since you are not good at the word game, you did not realize that #2 is the common meaning.
I am glad you admit that I am wise, but the rest of your little warning, or threat, is laughable. You have pursued your vendetta against me for a while, and never even tried "gentle and patient", and probably don't know the meaning of those words either. For some reason unknown to me, you have tried your best to chase me away for a couple of months now, but only succeed in making yourself look foolish. Maybe if you stick to your own advice and drop your vendetta, we can have a civil debate. As I have said many times before, it is obviously impossible for you to do so, but I still hold out hope.
Kennymouse,
What you want is for this blog site to be focused on you.
Anonymous and I have had a history or focusing on the issues.
I was not even aware that you and Anonymous were hashing it out on this thread until recently.
On other threads for so long Anonymous always focused on the issues and never personalities until very recently. I have always admired his posts.
I hope we can all go back and focus on the issues.
I know Anonymous can.
Are you able to Kennymouse? Please try!
Ken,
Yep, that is what I wrote, though you did forger the quote marks. As I have said repeatedly, no threat was made, no physical violence was suggested. The only threat or suggestion physical violence that could possibly exist is somewhere in the deep recesses of your demented and paranoid mind. It is truly a shame that you can not make a simple distinction between a threat of physical violence and a challenge. Considering that this exchange was made on a thread about "gun rights" it is kind of scary that a whack job like you wants the right to carry a gun, yet you can't differentiate correctly between a threat and a challenge. Heaven help someone exercising their right of free speech near you as they are liable to get shot.
As for definitions, sources like dictionary.com never have had the reputation of classic dictionaries like Webster which I prefer as a rule. http://www.websters-dictionary-online.org/Ve/Vendetta.html It is interesting to note that both of our quoted sources verify my usage of the primary definition as correct. I'm really not sure how or when you went so far astray in your thinking that you now believe that the less common meanings listed under the primary meaning are more important.
All one can conclude from this is that you are as bad at playing word games as you are at using a dictionary.
Since you are such an expert at idioms even you must know that the phrase "a word to the wise" suggests wisdom of the recipient only when the advice of the giver is actually followed. Since you clearly rejected my advice, I guess we all know what that makes you.
See, I and I even warned you that this was going to happen. Like fishing in a barrel.
Another Anonymous, I might have thought you were serious about discussing the issues except for the fact that you can't seem to get away from the childish name calling. Your history is one of alarmist conspiracy theories and attacks on people who don't agree with your 'facts'. Any time you want to actually discuss the issues civilly, I will be more than happy to do so.
Anonymouse, which word games do you want to play? When it suits you, you want to be literal. However, when I point out your very literal threat, and explain why a wordsmith such as yourself could only mean it in the literal way that you insist on, I am a paranoid whack job. Then you go on to make silly assumptions on my character, when you are the one making threats, something you still continue to do but in keyboard rambo fashion as you know you can't back up your physical threats.
I find it funny that one who claims I had to search for a source to agree with my definition had to do the same for his. Even funnier is the fact that your source agrees with me. By the way, we are not in a country that carries out true vendettas as a matter of course which is why my definition is the commonly accepted on in the United States. I'm not sure what country you are from as words like" behaiour" and phrases like "forger the quote marks" are quite foreign to me.
I also have to laugh at the fact that you have to constantly declare yourself the winner. It reminds me of how my children squabble when playing a game, and how they immaturely have to declare themselves the winner on some made up point. As I tell them, declaring yourself the winner does not make it so. The difference is that they have actually learned that fact is true. When will you?
Well any immaturity in your children can surely be explained by looking to you as their role model.
And thanks your reply. From now on I, and I suspect a lot of others, will quote be quoting your own words frequently.... "..., I am a paranoid whack job". Thank you for confirming that my suspicions were spot on.
I hadn't actually considered or even declared myself a winner; but seeing that is how you feel since you brought it up... thank you for the compliment and better luck next time.
Anonymouse, if it makes you feel better to feel you one once in your obviously pathetic life, I can live with that. Congratulations.
Ken,
It was absolutely fantastic to read that you are comfortable with your obviously pathetic life. Too many people waste their time and energy being angry or envious of what others are able to accomplish and they are not. Good job old boy, it's always a blessing to be comfortable in the knowledge of the life you are actually living.
Yawn...
Ka-ching!