Builder pitches new offer to sell Ponds of Hobson West land

Host Ted,

As you and I know there was a real estate bubble in the nation that followed the stock market bubble of the late 90s and early 2000s.

The stock market bubble blew up and most of us were lucky to get 10 cents on the dollar.

Now the real estate market blew up.

Crestview Builders paid Dr. Soper, who recently passed away, $2.5 million for this property at the peak of the real estate bubble.

The bubble bursted on them even though their cousins in City Hall passed them a life baton and zoned their property multi from single residential to try to give them a desperately needed assist. A decision by the city council that I felt was inappropriate. It is my belief that Councilman Wehrli did not see the conflict of interest in voting on his cousin's property. I believe he did not recuse himself. And the city establishment attorney did not see the conflict of interest either. I am not sure what law school she attended that teaches that conflicts of interest can be shelved when it benefits establishment folks in town!

How can Crestview Builders expect to get the same price they paid at the PEAK of the BUBBLE! That land is worth half what they paid for it.

Keep in mind that land had flooded many many times in the past. I believe Crestview Builders found out after the fact how bad the flooding on that property was. Melissa or some gal from this blog site knew Dr. Soper and visited the site to see the flooding. Dr. Soper who was her dentist complained to her of the constant flooding of his home many times each year and year after year.

If we had 17 inches in rain as we did a decade ago, this plot of land would make what happened in the Ashbury Subdivision look like a minor catastophe. That kind of rain which could happen again would annihalate any buildings on that lot. Not only basements but the first floors and possibly the second floors. It would be like a Katrina of sorts!

This land is apparently flood plain! It even floods when the snow melts. Saw it myself after Melissa recommened we check it out!

Crestview Builders made a huge mistake. They underestimated the flooding and underestimated the real estate bubble. They are looking for a life line.

I think the Park District should offer them $1.25 million or half the asking price. At least they get half their money back for their disastrous decision. That is a little over 200k an acre and should be more than adequate. That is an excellent price for swamp land! Most swamp land sold in Florida by shady salesman goes for 10k an acre! No one is implying that Crestview Builders are shady. They just simply made a huge mistake and want a full taxpayer bail-out! I am simly recommending a HALF BAIL-OUT!

This parcel looks nice and I would like to see it remain vacant. It is not practical for soccer as you can barely squeeze a soccer field between the 2 ponds. Who is going to retrieve the soccer balls when they end up in the ponds? Most summer days the land was too moist for playing soccer. It is muddy at least half the summer and three quarters of the spring and fall...how can it be used for park district activities. Maybe the ponds can be converted into Park District ice rinks in the deep winter but that is the only use I can see with this plot that is half water and half land.

I commend the Park District for rejecting the initial deals forced on them by establishment forces and relatives. They are obviously between a rock and a hard place and never had any intention of building as I disclosed on prior occassions on this blog site.

Let us give them $1.25 million and make it a final offer. The can either take that offer or let the ponds swallow the remaining 3 acres during the next major rainstorm!

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PS. It should be noted that at this time Crestview Homes sit on the market unsold. They are paying the mortgages on them and hopefully have not been given exemptions by their cousins in City Hall on the real estate taxes. They appear to desperately need money. So the Park District has the upper hand in these negotiations.

PSII. While surfing the net for real estate homes on the market, I checked the real estate taxes on McMansions that are vacant. I was surprised to see UNSOLD multi-million McMansions only paying 3-5k in annual taxes. I do not know which builder owns these homes. But they were all listed by Baird and Warner. It seems like some builder may have connections to the ol' boys network and have a way of keeping real estate taxes at a fraction of what they should be until they are finally sold. It just seems like the risk is minimized for those who seem to be connected. I am not saying Crestview Builders are connected but I am suspicious some builders are connected and an investigation needs to be launched by the States Attorney to explain how a 2 million dollar McMansion could have taxes of only 3-5k. Let us hope Baird and Warner had some misprints or just can't post properly. But I have to wonder about anything going on in this town! Look at how corrupt Alaska was, before Sarah Palin exposed and ended the corruption. Let us hope Naperville is not nearly as corrupt but I do have some very funny feelings. The truth eventually comes out if we keep pouncing on the ESTABLISHMENT!

Here are some words from Alaska Governor Sarah Palin that I found inspiring and would like my fellow bloggers to ponder:

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"I pledge to all Americans that I will carry myself in this spirit as vice president of the United States. This was the spirit that brought me to the governor's office, when I took on the old politics as usual in Juneau ... when I stood up to the special interests, the lobbyists, big oil companies, and the good ol' boys network.

Sudden and relentless reform never sits well with entrenched interests and power brokers. That's why true reform is so hard to achieve.

And I have protected the taxpayers by vetoing wasteful spending: nearly half a billion dollars in vetoes."

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It should be noted that Ms. Palin referred to the corrupt powers in Alaska as the "establishment" in her speech. It brought back memories of the Napergate Days when the Napergate Man refered to the good ol' boys network in town as also the "establishment."

Yes, an "entrenched establishment" that is being enriched due to existing policies is difficult to dislodge. The Napergate Man, a relatively unknown almost succeeded a decade ago. I believe it can be done. I think the situation for a dismantling is more ripe right now. It was not quite as ripe in the Napergate Days. Let us all vote this next election and start the dismantling of the "establishment." Enough is enough of this ongoing nonsense!

Crestview Builders claims they had invested $1.5 million in the development of this $2.5 million parcel.

Has anyone seen any development or improvements made to this site?

I have not seen any while driving by.

I believe this is a negotiating tactic by Crestview to get the Park District to pay 2.5 million by indicating they are out 4 million on this messy and muddy development.

As I said in my earlier post, I hope the Park District holds firm at $1.25 million...HALF PRICE! The Park District has the upper hand. Crestview showed their cards and they appear to be in some kind of serious distress!

Host Ted,

Does this version work for you?

Q. "negotiate a steep reduction in price", do you agree?

A.

Without knowing the exact soil conditions, the value of the land is difficult if not impossible to determine. Even if the land is buildable, we are at 3MM foreclosures with 6-7MM to go, prices have a long way to come down. Both parties are slow rolling the implosion until after elections.

It is entirely possible that the land is a bog and would require pilings as deep as 75-100 feet to make it buildable. Venice slowly (or quickly) sinking into the mud comes to mind.

Q. What do you think would be a fair price to pay for the 6 acres?

A.

First, the Sun needs to do some additional homework that may yield valuable information. It may require looking back four or five transactions to see what the land was originally worth. Was it ever valued as a bog?

Secondly, if the land is indeed unbuildable-swamp-land, then the Park District should offer the going rate for bogs and swamps, something approaching zero. If Crestview made a mistake (inexplicably failed to perform due diligence) and bought swampland or bought at the top of the bubble, it is not the responsibility of the City and residents to bail them out at inflated prices.

I applaud the Park District for not involving itself in the sale of inflated land of questionable value and hope that they will continue to exhibit good sense and a stiff spine.

I hope that the park district rejects the offer, as the land is useless to them. I also hope that Crestview isn't so over extended on idle land that they can't afford to keep the land until the market picks up. Seems that AA is happy the original owner got his price, but has a grudge against Crestview and wants to see them lose a lot of money. I notice that AA seems to wish ill on any successful person or business in Naperville. I wonder why AA is such a hate filled, bitter person.

I agree with AA that the land price has certainly decreased in value since it's original purchase. How much it has decreased and what the value of the land is today should be determined by 3 separate appraisers, 1 hired by Crestview, 1 hired by the PD and 1 hired by Mr. Dallmer's "Save The Ponds" group. That should keep things fair and somewhat transparent.

I do feel that the original $2.5 million offer is no longer valid due to the current state of the real estate market. Let's hope the PD Board spends a little more time on this issue than just jumping the gun like it appears they did by hiring the newest PD director.

Due to all the rain today, maybe it's a good time to go check out the flooding theory at this property. Probably should go home and get my boots first just in case.....

I don't know if the land is in a floodplain, or what it sold for in previous transactions. I don't think that second part matters now. Personally, I think the most logical use of the land is passive open space. I've seen people fishing there. To me, that sounds more like a function for the Forest Preserve District of DuPage County than the Naperville Park District. My suggestion would be for those who want to see the land preserved as open space to appeal to the Forest Preserve District to contact Crestview Builders about a possible transaction, maybe get advice from Naperville-based Conservation Foundation. The mission of the Park District is to provide recreational opportunities, not to preserve open space. Right idea, wrong body.

Ken,

I am not a hate filled or bitter person. I just hate to see corruption and improprieties implemented on the innocent taxpayer. I feel the same as Alaskan Governor Sarah Palin. Does that make her hate filled and bitter? She did not appear that way at the RNC.

I love success. I love to see both people and business succeed and prosper. I am very proud that Naperville is the wealthiest town in America with over 100,000 populance and average household income of $97,077. I have mentioned this fact over and over again in my former blogs. It makes me proud to see so much success in my community! I am proud of successful Napervillians. Why would you think I would wish ill on any successful person or business in Naperville? Are you lacking in "reading comprehension"...apparently you are!

First you accused 300 Napergatians of lacking reading comprehension and now you are implying I am lacking comprehension or maybe it is simply you who can not comprehend what you read or for that matter even what you write!

I just don't like people succeeding because of connections at City Hall. I don't like to see a parcel zoned for single homes like the Ponds rezoned to multi-use to help enrich developers who have a cousin on the city council who would not even recuse himself. The Master Plan seems to be shreded every time an establishment person or business needs a favor of sorts!

Tell me what it is you don't get, Ken! Aren't you the infamous blogger that thinks Napergatians are part of some cult because they want to eliminate government waste and reduce taxes???

Why are you so hate filled and bitter against those who simply want to keep a check on government? What is wrong with trying to control government waste? What is wrong with trying to keep taxes down?

I guess when you or others are on the receiving end of these high pensions that are subsidized by taxpayers, it is easy for one to see why you would be for government waste and higher taxes. It benefits you! I guess you agenda is based on SELFISHNESS!

Me, Myself and I sounds what you are about Ken! Time to think of others and the taxpayers that are being screwed to take care of certain employees and officials of the City of Naperville! How do you feel about all these high ranking city officials working for 6 digit salaries and collecting near 6 digit pensions from the same city they work for?!?!?

I am sure you are for it, Ken! But I assure you most residents and taxpayers think something is wrong with the system that allows the City of Naperville to allow an employee to "retire" with a pension after 20 years, and pays him a 6 digit salary until he retires again at age 65 with a second pension, also at the expense of the Naperville Taxpayer.

I am sorry but I think the current system sucks and is designed to screw the Naperville Taxpayer of his hard earned dollars. It is my belief the taxpayer will wake up and vote in the next election!

The Naperville Park District Board and its new director first need to focus on existing business and building a stronger organization before increasing their real estate holdings. Take a look at this property in a year from now. It will still be there.

Reject the offer. Not because it is too high. Not because the bubble has burst. Reject the offer because the only people who want the open space are the NIMBYs who live near the proposed development. If the NIMBYs want to stop any development, they should put up their own money, not taxpayer money.

Floodplain? I think that was shown to be false on another thread many months ago. Occassional flooding does not equal a floodplain and the development could regrade the land to stop the flooding.

Ken, don't waste your time. AA is not hate-filled or bitter, he (or she) just has anger issues. Misguided is probably a more appropriate word. Like a rash, don't scratch it or it will just get worse.

T.B.

Does this neighborhood already have existing park space that is consistent with other areas of the city?

Is the park district planning any special uses or amenities for this open space that will benefit park users throughout the city?

Does this land floor or not? If it currently has been prone to flooding can it be corrected?

Will the local schools be able to absorb any additional students who might live in housing built on this land?

Has an independent real estate appraiser provided a current fair market valuation for this land?

Over the last couple of decades I have driven past this site many, many times and given the character of the general neighborhood I certainly do not see any reason why either housing or a park would work in this location. If housing should be built, then the type of housing and the density should be consistent with the character of the neighborhood. And that is regardless of what the current owner may have paid for the land with the high hopes and speculation of changing the zoning. I am personally sick and tired of watching one developer after another parade zoning requests in from of the zoning board and city council and get pretty much what they want. What is the point and purpose of city planning? What is the point of all the effort put into zoning if, in the end, it meant nothing and gets changed based upon what lawyer or law firm represents which developer? If the city council doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to uphold zoning in this city then they might as well throw all of the existing zoning ordinances and plans in the trash and just let everyone do what they want. Fact is everyone believes all of the zoning changes that go before the city council and get awarded are just one of the many ways local elected officials have become corrupted.

If this land is to be purchased for use as a park then I would want to learn what kind of a park would be created. We already have way too many parks that are not truly functional from a recreation perspective and serve as little more than landscape eye candy for the next door neighbors. I would be totally against more of that in this location. However, if there are plans to actually use this park for something useful, then I would be interested in hearing the proposal.

Any land bought for civic purposes absolutely should not be purchased above current fair market value. If the park district wants this land bad enough they can always use eminent domain and let a court determine the fair value. The question is what compelling reason do we need/want this park bad enough to use eminent domain?

AA, you are hate filled and bitter. You seem to exhibit signs of paranoia as you rant on about the many so called establishment conspiracies.

In answer to your question, I certainly am not lacking in reading comprehension. You love to see businesses you approve of succeed. You seem to want any business connected to 'establishment' families fail, or at least lose a lot of money. I hope that Crestview keeps the land and builds the town homes so some more taxpayers can be added, even if it takes a few years to do so.

When you state that you are sure that I am for something, a little practice of the reading comprehension and memory for facts that you claim to have would be nice. I have stated before that I am against the double dipping. However, I am also against just taking away the things that the city has promised its workers just because you cannot afford your tax bill. Changes need to be made, but they should be well thought out changes, and legal changes. They should not be reactive changes to people who obviously are in over their head and want to take out their failings on government workers and workings.

TB, you are right that I should try to ignore AA, but sometimes you have to scratch the rash just to get a little relief.

Message for Ken

I do not view AA as angry with success, rather, angry with the process. The land was really not suitable for anything but open space. But that was not the original plans, it was not put on the City plans.

Instead, the City "increased" the value by rezoning the parcel from single family to high density. Just like they are doing in pockets all around town. I know there was an outcry that stopped the townhouses at Bauer and Mill. But if you drive Naper Boulevard south of 75th Street, every holdout in the initial development has been rezoned for higher density. Put this in perspective. Instead of building two to three houses per acre, the densities are as high as 10 to 12 per acre. The zoning changes are more bizarre than Houston.

Another one of these pockets just popped up on Plank Road.

WHY? To increase the value of the land. And it is curious that a councilman chose not to recuse himself, a first cousin is pretty close.

But the bubble has popped. Townhouses have been hit the hardest in valuation drops. That means the land that was worth $2.5 million (never $4 million) has probably dropped the most (land takes the hit since the construction costs remain the same).

If the market comes back, the land might be worth $4 million. More likely, the developers will turn the land over to the bank.

I think this is what prompted AA's comments. Nothing vindictivie other than some glee that questionable deals (the zoning and the cousin) do get punished.

Ken,

I like to see all business compete on a level playing field. When the city council gives establishment friendly developers who use establishment friendly Attorney Bill Brestal zoning changes to acheive the zoning they please, I find that a bit disturbing.

Why do you and TB think this preferential favoritism bestowed upon establishment folks, fair and square, is beyond me!

I do not know what percentage of zoning changes Mr. Brestal handles at this time. But in the Napergate Days he was reported to have handled 99% of the changing zones in this town. Donations were flowing freely from his law firm to city council members. Anytime a single attorney or law firm handles 99% of the zoning business, red flags need to go up! Questions need to be asked?

I believe Mr. Brestal is back in the picture with the Ponds of Hobson West. This seems to signal he is trying to help some establishment folks out of a mud hole they dug themselves in, by utilizing taxpayer money.

Free enterprise should be allowed to operate freely without help from government. Bail outs from any government entity disturb me. The Federal Govt is about to rescue Freddie Mac and Fannie May to the tune of 45 billion dollars with taxpayer money. Why not let them go under and teach them a lesson in being MORE particular in who they loan money to in the future!

The establishment folks are trying to get the City Council to take the risk of a disaster if the Omnia Project goes south. Why is the CC even considering involving itself in what should be a private enterprise venture? Why should the Naperville Taxpayer take the risk of a loss when there is no chance of a profit ending in his wallet or her pusse in the event of a profitable Omnia. This is nonsense and one day the sleepy Naperville Taxpayer will wake up and stop this madness. How many more 20% annual tax increases do we need before the masses wake up is a question I can not answer? How the Napergate Man woke up so many people is another question I can not answer. But a way needs to be found to wake up this sleepy town before the hurricane financial disaster finally sweeps through and bankrupts a significant number of the residents!

Is it fair to use taxpayer money to compete with North Central College who just built a state of the art performing facility using 100% private funds? Let us not sabotage NCC investment by funding Omnia with taxpayer money and putting NCC at a competitive disadvantage.

I don't know where you and TB are coming from in your support of establishment improprieties and taxpayer waste of money. It seems like you guys just come on here to debate and battle for the sake of argument instead of accomplishment.

I thought you guys would have grown up after your epic battles against hundreds of Napergatians who made minced meat out of you guys day after day. It seems like you are both back to reincarnate yourselves after the Napergatians exposed you for the fools you both are.

I am sure the reason Napergatians are avoiding this blog site is to avoid bloggers like you who serve no purpose to society or to this particular blog site.

You provide nothing to the debate here. I was focused on the issues until Ken popped his head to attack me personally. I guess his buddy TB has decided to join him in personal attacks instead of focusing on the issues on hand. Issues such as CONFLICT OF INTEREST that you would think an MBA would understand has serious consequences!

Show me where I attacked you, Mr.TB! Why do you want to start personal attacks. I just want it to be on record here that you started this confrontation against me on a personal level. So when I strike back, please don't complain to Host Ted or your Mama!

Ananymous,

Thank you for your understanding and comprehension of the point I was trying to make. Very much appreciated especially since you understood where I was coming from!

Message for Ken,

You need to take your rhetoric down about a half dozen notches. AA made a reasonable post with his thoughts. Try demonstrating some respect towards others. If you disagree, fine. State your thoughts.

Writing garbage like: "Seems that AA is happy the original owner got his price, but has a grudge against Crestview and wants to see them lose a lot of money." is totally unnecessary. You don't know AA and for you to speculate, without proof, that he has any kind of a grudge is both unfair and totally uncalled for.

As if that wasn't enough you followed that sentence up with: "I notice that AA seems to wish ill on any successful person or business in Naperville. I wonder why AA is such a hate filled, bitter person." Again, your personal attack on AA was totally uncalled for. Nothing in AA's original post or follow-up posts was hate filled or bitter. Nothing AA wrote warranted a visceral response like this from you. If anything Ken, it is you who comes off as hate and bitter with your constant unprovoked attacks against AA.

The realities of the marketplace make some people winners and some people losers. If you think commodities and future traders aren't jumping for joy every time they make money at the expense of someone else losing money then you really don't understand the dynamics of a free enterprise system. Sure it would be wonderful if all businesses were successful. Reality is many businesses are not successful, sometimes because of their own decisions, sometimes because of factors beyond their control. In this example a private company made a gamble by investing their money to purchase a piece of ground. I'm sure they had great plans and high hopes. Over the last few years we have seen how those great plans and high hopes have clashed with their neighbors. The principals in this business made a decision to accept the risk, based upon their own plans. Sometimes these kinds of business risks pay off handsomely and sometimes, as in this case, they do not. That is the risk of being in business.

The good or bad business decisions of Crestview Builders really don't enter into the discussion. The good or bad external factors in the marketplace don't really enter into the discussion either. It doesn't matter who owns this land or why. It doesn't matter what anyone previously paid of this land either. To us as taxpayers the only thing that matters, the only thing that is relevant is what the fair market value of this land is today and if that price is a good value to create a park.

However, even if it is considered to be a good value by the experts my first question in an earlier post still needs to be answered.... "Does this neighborhood already have existing park space that is consistent with other areas of the city?"

The park district should not be creating parks just to create parks. They should have a master plan that demonstrates and supports specific need(s). If the residents in this area can factually demonstrate that their geographic area/neighborhood is under served by the number/size of parks or by usual park facilities then they may have a good argument to support the purchase. In my opinion most taxpayers would support other neighborhoods having fairly equal park facilities. At the same time I do not believe most taxpayers will support their tax dollars being used for parks that are not needed, that are not functional (i.e. flooding?), or are only being created to prevent a high density housing development in a specific location/neighborhood.

I do think it is fair to look back at the history of development of this section of town over the last 20-30 years and honestly ask why the park district was never interested in purchasing this property before? What does the park district know or what have they known about this property that has caused them to never express any interest in acquisition? If the park district has ruled out this site as a good candidate for a park property then why would any of us want to see political pressure come to bear on the park district to create a park that will have some type of less than desirable characteristics from the start? And if that actually happens, does that mean this park will lie there fallow, with any useful purpose, serving only as eye candy for the next door neighbors or will we taxpayers end up pouring untold more millions into the property to bring it up to some kind of acceptable park standards?

This space should be kept open. But the cost is a bit concerning. Can the Park District afford this? Seems they could go broke if they start buying all the open space or worse yet a big tax increase! Not something I want from that group.

If I remember correctly the land is to be apraised at the old zoning and not the new zoning. If that's the case then the land is not worth as much as it could be if the new zoning is the basis. Anyone else remember that? I think ananymous is making things up as he goes on this point.

Bottom line, keep it open space... as long as the price is right.

What's with the conflict of interest claims? If we're talking about Wehrli, doun't you think Ferstenau would have called him out if there was anything there? He would love to find something there, it would only help his stupid lawsuit!

Times are a changing. To buy such a small parcel for anything near this dollar amount seems silly. Work on existing projects icluding the idea of cutting budgets by a minimum of 10% as we watch falling real estate values become a reality. The last thing the park district needs is to be forced to raise its rate of taxation on the taxpayer because of falling property values. It's time to honker down and weather the ever increasing storm. The writing is on the wall!!!!!!!!!!!

Real estate prices are falling. And they have not bottomed out yet. I'm yet to be convinced that buying this piece of land for a park is either the right thing to do or even necessary. However, if a decision is eventually made to buy this property then the board should wait until the market hits bottom before making a move.

Ken and most others –

Thanks for reading my post and not reading into my post as someone else has chosen to do. I’m as confused as Joe Naper regarding a conflict of interest claim. I haven’t seen any facts to support this conflict issue.

Despite what one person has posted, I am against a waste of taxpayer money and that is exactly why I wrote that WE should not ALL pay for some NIMBY’s desires. I agree with Anonymous that we should not be creating parks for the sake of creating parks. It should be in the master plan and not just brought up to stop development in a particular area.

Let Crestview sit on their property and lose money. They gambled and lost (apparently).

T.B.

Lets be honest. The land in question has no immediate recreational value to the city or residents of Naperville. I think the entire parcel, the ponds and the land between them, should be bought by the DuPage Forest Preserve District or the Illinois Department of Natural Resources and be preserved as open space. The IDNR has given millions of dollars to the Naperville Park District to buy open land but only to develop park facilities including athletic fields, trails, and playgrounds. Clearly this land is not suitable for use by the park district. The land should be bought by those agencies whose job it is to maintain open space. The DFPD or the IDNR. And the price should be at the value it is today. Not what it was before. Private citizens do not have that luxury, for-profit businesses shouldn’t either.

Not Park Land,

Are you kidding us? The overall sentiment expressed so far on Potluck is that the Naperville Park District shouldn't be buying this parcel. Seeing that trend you, now want to cast a wider net and draw the DuPage FPD and Illinois DNR into this? Why not throw in the US Department of Interior and see if they want to create a National Park as well? Face reality, there is no way the FPD or DNR would even take a first look at this property.

Here is a suggestion though. To all the NIMBY's in this neighborhood who want to preserve this piece of ground and who are so opposed to the proposed development.... how about you all pool your money, but the property, and then either preserve it as is or develop it in a way you believe is consistent with the neighborhood and which the city council zoning and planning will support.

The 15 minutes of public interest on this parcel expired some time ago. 95% of Naperville could care less about making this parcel into a city park. Now is the time for those who support it to step up to the plate and take ownership and make their own decisions rather than trying to dictate what others should do with it.

I agree with 'Not Park Land' 9/7 10:26pm. The Naperville Park District is in the business of acquiring park land as part of a well thought out master plan which should provide equitable park facilities for all of the town's neighborhoods. It is not in the business of acquiring land for purely preservationist reasons. That is the business of the Forest Preserve and the IDNR.

Please NPD, prove us wrong:
-Prove you won't spend millions of dollars to take a dud piece of property off the hands of a homebuilder which is owned by a Naperville "establishment" family.

-Prove you won't spend millions of dollars just to preserve the backyard view of a vocal set of affluent NIMBYs.

-Prove you won't spend millions of dollars and significant further expenditures on land improvements so that you can say "see, we needed a park there!" even though park visitors will probably be wallowing around in the mud everytime they go there.

-Prove you will ignore Crestview's assertion that they spent $1.5 million of "land improvements" at the property. I don't know whether they spent a cent on improving the property but if it looks like a mudpit and smells like a mudpit then it's still a mudpit. (makes me wonder if they're including the fees paid to their lawyers -- I think we can all figure out who that is -- as part of the "improvements?).

NPD acquiring this land would just not pass the smell test. I am so utterly sick of the establishment in this town and all of its pork. It's amazing how much of it is directly tied to the landowners, developers, home builders, and the service providers which cater to that crowd. One way or another, they all have their hands in our wallets. What good does it do us?

BigMike,
You make a lot of sense. I'm now thinking the Park District should walk away from this deal.
Only thing I'm hoping you will go into greater detail is the pork that the establishment in this town is getting fat on. How do they, whoever "they" are, have their hands in your wallets? Perhaps you could provide some detail? Is this just the "stick to the man" attitude or do you have some theory that you could share?

BigMike,

I was very impressed with your last post! It was right on the money...or should I say the MUDPIT!

Not in a million years did they spend $1.5 million on "land improvements!"

It seems odd that one sees nothing on that land. The soil was not even turned.

It seems a little odd that you can build a FIRE STATION for 2.22-2.54 million dollars that you can see, and these Crestview Builders made 1.5 million dollars of "land improvements" that no one can see!
I believe that statement should go to their CREDIBILITY!

Only God knows how much they paid establishment attorney Bill Brestal to get them out of the mudpit they are in. Yes, this is the same Mr. Brestal that took the wrath of the Napergate Man in several full page ads.

It seemed Mr. Brestal maintained a low profile for a while after being exposed in the Napergate Series for who he is, but it now appears like he is planning a REINCARNATION of sorts after taking a long hiatus.

A significant amount of the establishment seems to be operating in a blunt, open and for the most part improper manner as of late. It seems they are launching a resurgence of sorts hoping the naivety of some of the sleepy newcomers will continue for a little longer! I doubt it will!

Land like that for a sorta wet park best used for fishing: about $150,000 an acre. Call it a million even. We could have Last Bait Fling and FishFest there.

By Anonymous on September 6, 2008 11:50 AM
Message for Ken,

Writing garbage like: "Seems that AA is happy the original owner got his price, but has a grudge against Crestview and wants to see them lose a lot of money." is totally unnecessary. You don't know AA and for you to speculate, without proof, that he has any kind of a grudge is both unfair and totally uncalled for.

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Anonymous,
Thank you!

Just for the record I do not know Crestview Builders. Never met anyone who worked for that company! Never did any kind of business with them. There is no grudge!

I am simply a taxpayer who cares about my taxes as well as those taxes of my fellow Napervillians. That is my only agenda.

I like Naperville and would like to continue living here. However, high taxes could run me out of town and it is my goal to run the establishment out of power before they run me and my neighbors out of town with their runaway taxes and disregard for controlling costs! For allowing double dipping by top ranking city officials! By favoring former police officers for jobs they know nothing about such as running City Hall or the Park District! And then they pay them a salary on top of their huge pension. They could say we will offer you this job but the salary will be what it is minus your pension. Take it or leave it! It is called NEGOTIATION....something apparently unheard of in Naperville. It seems CONNECTIONS is what Naperville is about and not NEGOTIATION!

These is so much government waste in this town besides high salaries and pensions, sometimes I don't know where to start.

I do appreciate all you and others are doing to enlighten the sleeping masses in this town. It took 10 years for the Napergate Man to wake his generation up. He was relentless but finally woke them up.

We are only in our second year on Ted's Threads trying to wake residents up. Let us hope it is not another 10 year battle. I am hoping one day the Naperville Sun will be as aggressive in its print edition as it is on its blog site to help us wake the sleepy folks in this town that the establishment uses and abuses!

I urge the Park Board NOT to purchase Hobson Ponds. Contrary to a letter appearing on the Opinion Page recently all residents are not happy about a possible purchase of the property. Naperville is a community of just under 140,000 and only a few neighbors are urging this purchase.

I was going to let Anonymouse's statements against me go, as I realize it is part of his personal vendetta against me, one which Another Anonymous gleefully joins as regular readers of the blogs know. However, since AA won't follow my lead, I'll respond to both of my personal cyber stalkers.

Anonymouse, why is it unfair for me to speculate about AA? She speculates about things all the time, including all her conspiracy theories about so called establishment people running the town and getting rich from it. She has consistently alleged that Crestview got special considerations from Naperville because of their connections. If she has any proof of her allegations, she should take them to the state's attorney office and help clean up the supposedly corrupt city government.

If it is fair for AA to speculate about the inner workings of government, it is fair for me to speculate about her reasons for doing so.

Anonymouse, you have made several posts urging the powers that be here to ban me because you do not like my opinions. Maybe if you concentrated on having a factual debate, or even stuck to your own opinions instead of stalking me, you would be a happier person and less inclined to trying to wrest control of the board from our able host. People are not going to appoint you the forum god and agree with everything you say, just as they won't agree with everything I say. If you can deal with that thought, it will probably improve your potluck postings and make them worth reading.

Ken,

If you want to discuss or argue the issues, be my guest. You cross the line with your snotty remarks, personal attacks, and disrespect for other posters and I am going to become the worst nightmare you can possibly imagine. And I have a lot of experience at being your worst nightmare. I am going to call you out every time you cross the line and I'm going to ask everyone else on Potluck to do the same. If enough noise is generated by your behaviour the mods will have no choice other than to take action.

The choice is yours on whether you stay and learn to play nice with others or get run off the forum. You have been posting on borrowed time for way too long as it is. Personally, I'm betting you simply don't have the ability to restrain yourself and exhibit some maturity. As a result you will get run off and it will actually be your own undoing. So go ahead. Prove me right. Prove me wrong. The choice is yours.

Well, Anonymouse, you seem to forget that we are both Ted's guest, but I am glad to see you admit you have been stalking me for quite a while. You can't be my worst nightmare as that happened over a year and a half ago. You are nothing but a mindless diversion compared to that. As I have posted before to you and your cohorts, I attack when attacked by others. You found this out when you threatened me with physical harm and had to backtrack when I was ready to accept your challenge. When you stop your vendetta, which you have clearly stated here, I will quit having to respond to your snotty remarks and personal attacks in kind. I find it amusing that you go to the lengths you do to disguise your behaviour(sic) without realizing that the regular readers here can see right through your right through your bs.

As for proving you wrong, I have been doing that for months. If you put as much time into properly debating me as you do with your vendetta against me, you might actually prove yourself as a debater. It will be interesting to see if you can give up your cyber stalking habits to actually discuss an issue. I betting you can't.

Anonymous,

You are best ignoring Ken. He thrives on being attacked! It gives him rises and unusual highs!

Before you came on board, Ken was blasted by 300-500 Napergatians weekly. He actually thrived on it. They finally caught on to his odd behavior and ignored him.

I suggest you not let him get under your skin and focus on the issues as you have done so eloquently the last few months.

Your pen has been like a very sharp sword!

Keep focused...don't let Ken sidetrack you!

He knows you have been very effective so he is trying to sidetrack you from holding city officials accountable by wasting your time giving him his rises and highs.

Trust my advice! I have observed this guy from the onset along with those numerous Napergatians who probably left this site because of his likes!

You will not succeed in banishing him! The hundreds of Napergatians tried to get Host Ted and Moderator Jim to banish him and were not successful.

In the end this blog site lost hundreds of bloggers because the Host and Moderator would not take the necessary and appropriate action. There were about 5 Ken's at the time wreaking havoc. Thankfully 3 have retired!

Before you came on board, some of these threads would have 500 posts. One Napergate Thread has 904 posts! Finally, one thread hit a 100 posts yesterday so maybe Ted's Threads are ready for a comeback!

At some point Host Ted will realize that the likes of Ken do more damage to his threads than good. The numbers reflect this!

I have confidence that Host Ted at some point in the future will take corrective action against Ken...but not the near future!

So again my advice is ignore him and focus on the issues at hand!
You have gained my respect with your postings. Please don't let Ken take you to the gutter...let him go by himself! He would fit in perfectly with all the mouse that live in the gutters of Naperville!

AA,
Where are the facts to back up your claim that 300-500 Napergatians even exist? So what if some blogs have 904 posts! If this many people did respond to Ken on a nightly basis the postings would be in the thousands not a paltry few. Same few people hashing an issue. I thought maybe this was a forum for inteligent exchange of thoughts and ideas but the more I read the more I see a few grenade throwers with no solutions be discussed. Just inflamatory remarks with the sole intent of tearing some one down. Pretty pathetic.

Solution to the Hobson Ponds: Park District save us tax payers some money. If this fits into a master parks plan wait a year and buy. It will still be on the market then and for a whole lot less!

Joe Naper,

If you review the old Napergate Blogs you will see 300-500 different names. Some lady named Patrica once counted a few hundred and listed them in a post on this site by individual name.

Every blogger has a unique IP number that the Sun can track.

The Naperville Sun researched this a bit and found a few bloggers with the same IP number.

At first it was believed there may be a blogger pretending to be two people.

It was later learned, some bloggers went to a Dunkin Donuts and blogged together. Since Dunkin Donuts has a wireless internet that only gives one IP number, they both had the same IP number but were 2 individuals.

There are way more than 300-500 Napergatians and sympathizers in town. When they get angry and vote, you can see the difference. In one election, I think 1999, they endorsed 4 council members and all 4 of their endorsees won....beat the ESTABLISHMENT 4!

I suspect they will resurface in the next election as TAXES ARE BECOMING UNBEARABLE as a result of INTOLERABLE GOVERNMENT WASTE! That is the simple agenda of the Napergate Man and his Napergatian followers. When taxes are bearable and the government is NOT wasting the taxpayers hard earned dollars, they seem to enjoy their hibernation. They are very peaceful residents to the best of my knowledge.

Most of us, you, the Napergatians, Anonymous, myself, and others stay focused on the issues. People like TB and Ken come on to cause trouble by stroking and agitating bloggers. Their agenda was simply to get a rise or high out of an argument!

For the most part I ignore them, and concentrate on the issues at hand.

My numerous posts, prove I focus on the issues and not the personalities that try to egg me and others on.

The other day a blogger called me stupid for providing some contribution numbers obtained from this blog site directly from Council Man Bob!

I agree with what you said. But you should be addressing Ken, TB and the Anonymous guy who called me stupid.

No one participates on this blog site every day except for a very few including myself. No one writes letters to the editor every day. I never said there were 300-500 Napergatians exposing Ken and his gang at the same time for who they are. It happened over a years time on and off.

The most Napergatians I have ever seen in one day is about 30-40 at the peak of this blog site. Lately, I have not seen any! Maybe except for some guy name Kevin who posted a few times. I hope that answers your question.

Have a good day and let us focus on issues! That is very important.

By writing what you write you do get us a bit off the issue. Even the famous Anonymous lost focus for a moment because of Ken. That was the purpose of my post that I believe you are responding to. To encourage him to stay focused as he has done better than anyone else I know with his radar and laser like focus!

Unfortuately, Ken thrives at getting under peoples skin and does succeed. As he states, he needs to scratch...lol!!!

Joe Naper,

There was a time the Napergate Man called for a rally thru his Napergate ads to stop a densely commercial development on the corner of Hobson and Naper Blvd called Spring Green.

I recall about 500 people attending this rally some on foot and some in cars and SUVs beeping their horns and flying balloons.

Host Ted at the time was a young handsome reporter.(Don't worry you are still handsome Host Ted). He covered the rally for the Naperville Sun.

I believe he actually saw and met quite a few Napergatians that day.

He may have interviewed the Napergate Man's second in command. A lady named Donna Rogers who has since left town. She was a real organizer and could mobilize troops like no other person in the history of Naperville!

Anyway the Spring Green rally was successful. Instead of a densely commercial development, we see 11 beautiful homes surrounding a low lying homey looking day care center.

The message here is the City Council will only listen if massive amounts of pressure can be applied. The Napergate Man and his Napergatians followers knew how to put pressure on City Hall. They knew how to pack the City Council when they wanted to and did on several occassions!

This is all documented in the history of Naperville both at Nichlos Library and in the Sun Achives!

With a name like Joe Naper you would think you would know the history of Naperville upside down. Are you writing to us from Heaven or from Earth? Or I you just pretending to be Joe Naper...lol!

AA, I really hate to continue your hijacking of this thread, but I also can not let your constant lies go unchecked.

First of all, there have never been 3-500 napergatians posting here. The woman who did the count came up with a little over 200 counting back to when Potluck started.

Second, my aim is never to agitate and get under peoples skin, as you constantly claim. The napergate cult considers any opinion other than theirs, even ones with facts to back up opposing opinions, to be lies and attacks on their cult. They then send out an email on their napergate network and let the name calling and attacks begin. For the most part, their rants never have facts, just things they "recall" hearing or reading and put forth as facts, just like you stated you do.

No one exposed me and my so called gang; they disappeared when they found out I and others were not going to cut and run because of their intimidation tactics. If one were to read back over those posts, they would see that plenty of warnings for bad behavior were given out...to the napergatians.

I like how you nobly claim to be above personal attacks, and you rarely respond to them, a claim anyone who ever crosses you knows to be false. Is this your idea of debate, posted on 9/5/08 at 10:47am on the Dispute over township salary cuts turns ugly thread:

"I suggest you go back and play with your Barbie Dolls, Kenny Boy! They may show you the respect that you will not obtain from your fellow bloggers.
Grow up Kenny Boy and cease and desist with your constant name calling!"

While you laugh at the thought of me scratching, you seem to forget that the rash I am scratching at is you.

As I have stated many times before, I wish to do no more than debate opinions on this forum. However, Another Anonymous, when you and your ilk attack, I will respond in kind.

Joe Naper –

Your 09/10 post at 10:25 PM is right on the money. There is no support for 300-500 Napergatians posting here and there never has been. They’re just some numbers they like to throw around. They’re intent on getting their opinion across, are closed to contrary opinions, and attack anyone who dares to disagree.

Their usual M.O. is to attack, ridicule, and attempt to marginalize those who don’t fall in step with their dogma. Never mind that maybe they could be wrong; never mind that there are always two sides to every story; and never mind what the facts show. Their way is the only way (to them, at least).

They blame others for responding to attacks, yet remain oddly silent when someone from their own ranks does the attacking. They also blame Ted for the drop in posts on these threads when in reality I think they’ve just pushed most other bloggers to other sites. Who wants to be attacked and ridiculed? Who wants to hear about Napergate on every thread and every topic? Just check out the archived library parking deck thread and see what they posted about Brenda. She dared to disagree and was labeled as “lazy” and ridiculed for days. Check out the various archived Napergate threads and see what they wrote about the police. Former Moderator Jim wouldn’t even re-publish what they initially wrote due to the content that had initially slipped through.

Oh, and they’re very fond of making unsupported allegations, as you’ve seen and questioned. This city is evidently the conspiracy theory capital of the US.

AA has some good points about wanting to save taxpayer funds, but his attacks wreck his credibility. Ken and I (and possibly others) could agree with AA 100% on a given topic and he’d still attack us solely based on who we are and not the content of what we write.

You’re right. It does seem pathetic.

T.B.

Another Anonymous,

No need to continue to flog a dead horse. And believe me this horse is dead for the time being. However, I DO have a solution and if the ugly problem we recognize rears it's ugly head again I will implement it and expose the truth for what it is despite all the silly arguments to the contrary.

I do not suffer fools gladly. I do not suffer certain parts of horses any more so.

T.B.,
I never responded to any of your blogs or ever attacked you FIRST!

You attacked me first and I made sure I documented that in a post in order for Host Ted to see.

I also never attacked Ken until he attacked me.

It is all documented.

Let us not twist the truth.

As Anonymous, I also enjoy being focused on the issues at hand.

I have been blogging for a few months and never attacked anyone first.

I had a guy call me stupid for posting accurate numbers from a City Council Member. I did not see you or Ken say a word about that attack!

I was not bloggin much when the Napergatians were on here in masses but I was reading and learning. I think I learned very much from them!

I believe the Napergatians were attacked first because they were pushing for cost cuts that would take something away from city police and fireman.

It is obvious those who benefit from the high taxation and government waste will fight tooth and nail to attack the character of those who fight for lower taxes and less government waste. The reason they will attack the character of the messenger is they simply can not attack the message.

Now let us all try to keep it civil. I like to focus on GOVERNMENT WASTE and REDUCING TAXES!

I am not into attacking anyone. I agree with Anonymous that unless we want to complement a fellow blogger we should refrain from personal attacks!

Thanks!

PS. I don't think you can blame the Napergatians for the drop of posts on this Blog Site. They have not been on here for a while and the postings have been slow. If anything, they energized the site.
I feel they left because of the likes of Joe, TB, Ken and Southwest Taxpayer and a few others who were constantly attacking their personas instead of their agenda and messages.

By Ken on September 11, 2008 11:42 AM
AA, I really hate to continue your hijacking of this thread, but I also can not let your constant lies go unchecked.

First of all, there have never been 3-500 napergatians posting here. The woman who did the count came up with a little over 200 counting back to when Potluck started.

____________________________________________________________________

Ken,
I agree that when Blogger Patricia computed the number of Napergatians she got a little over 200. But since her research at least another hundred or more Napergatians began bloggin on this blog site.

I estimated to the best of my ability. You estimated to the best of your ability. I did not say you were lying or a liar.

But notice how you imply I am lying because I may or may not be off on an estimate. I hope you can see for yourself how you stir trouble.

In summary all I am going to say politely is you may be off on your estimate. What you are doing is making false ACCUSATIONS OF LYING because I may be off an estimate! How ridiculous!

Let the bloggers judge who the trouble maker is! Enough said!

First you accuse the Napergatians of hijacking threads. Now you level that charge against me. It seems it is you who labels anyone you disagree with a a cult member who is trying to hijack threads. Why not simply try to debate instead of performing character assassinations?

And you know the Barbie Doll reference only came after you attacked me. I never attack first! Period.

Don't you just love local politics in action? Don't you just love local politics at it's worst? Don't you just love wondering what the next move will be by the Naperville Park Board? Isn't it amazing to see the Naperville Park Board make what can best be categorized as a really bad decision and then totally astound us by outdoing themselves with their next decision?

I'm not going to write about the total waste of $2.5M dollars to purchase a really cruddy piece of property with little or no practical recreational value. I'm not going to write about the misuse of Naperville taxpayer dollars to bail out one of the owners of Crestview Builders. I'm not going to write about the misuse of taxpayer dollars to appease the squeaky wheel of a bunch of NIMBY homeowners who live adjacent to this property. I'm not going to write about what a farce it is to give any kind of credibility to Save Open Spaces which had a single open space agenda. I'm not going to write about what how insulting it is to include this cruddy little piece of ground in any reasonable or intelligent conversation about open space. These issues have already been discussed and most everyone know the facts surrounding this controversy well enough to make their own conclusions.

What I won't forget though is that the Naperville Park Board voted 4-1 on this purchase. I will remember the names of each and every one of the 4 board members who voted FOR purchasing this property.

What I won't forget either is that the Naperville Park Board voted 5-2 to hire Ray McGury as the new director. I will remember the names of each and every one of the 5 board members who voted FOR hiring McGury.

As a group the Naperville Park District board disgusts and disappoints me. The have failed to exercise reasonable stewardship over their responsibilities. They have consistently failed to vote on issues in a manner that is consistent with the expressed will of the people whom they are charged with representing. Out of this collective mess of one disappointment and embarrassment after another stand one bright and hopeful light.

There is currently one board member to whom we can look to for some hope. Marie Todd. Currently serving as Vice President, Marie's voting track record is headed in the right direction. Hopefully Marie will stick to her guns and not let herself become co-opted or corrupted by the rest of this incompetent board. Hopefully Marie will continue to impress us with her voting record.

What voters need is to do is to get Marie some help. We can do this by encouraging other qualified candidates to run for park board come next election. We can also do this by exercising our right to vote and by remembering which current park board members have earned our votes and which park board members have earned our scorn.

Another Anonymous, you do know that everything you write here can be reviewed, don't you? You claim you never attack anyone, but the proof is in your past writings.
This thread is the only one you can claim I 'attacked' first, and all I did was wonder why you are a hate filled, bitter person, as evidenced by your posts. The only reason you pointed out that T.B. and I 'attacked' you first was because it was the first time you could make that claim in all the time you have posted here. Our supposed 'attacks' were merely observations of you and your posts, not the childish name calling personal attacks that you are known to indulge in, as I showed by quoting you from an entirely different thread.

For the record, I didn't imply you lied. I said it straight out. Now you add to the lies by saying a 100 more napergatians have posted here since an estimate done a few months ago. This after you have said they don't post here any more because of me. Which is it? Your claim that you never attack first is also a lie, as is the claim of the Barbie doll reference. That one has been a favorite of yours for months. As I mentioned before, it is all saved in the archives for any caring to review it.

All in all, AA, I am quite willing to just express my opinion and engage in debate, as I have stated to you and your ilk many times before. I don't enjoy the constant sniping brought on by you and your ilk but I also can't let you attack me and not respond. The choices are simple. Either you quit beating the horse, as your friend Anonymouse suggested, and we just politely debate, or we keep sniping at each other as I am unwilling to submit to your attacks. Your choice.

The vote last night to approve paying $2.5 million dollars to purchase this open land is a misuse of tax payers money. For the President of the Park District Board to quote this in the Naperville Sun today…"We are very pleased with the outcome of this purchase," said park board President Suzanne Hart. "We believe the Park District has been a good steward of the taxpayers' funds, while serving the recreational needs of the public" shows the lack of leadership on that board. What needs of the public are served by owning this land? How much more money will be spent to make this a usable piece of land for the Park District? I think it is fair to ask the board what the future plans are for this land and they should be able to answer that question especially since they approved purchasing it last night. If they don’t know the future plans just yet, than they made a very bad decision last night.

I have to agree, a very bad decision.

The future of the Naperville Park District is uncertain at best giving that taxpayers are interested in a referendum on the ballot to see if the district should be abolished.

The political future of Naperville Park District board president Suzanne Hart is far less certain given her track record of leadership in specific and her voting record in general.

It is actually insulting to see Ms. Hart use the word stewardship in the same sentence with herself and many of the board members since she and most of the board have consistently and repeatedly demonstrated that they do not have even the most basic understanding of the principles of stewardship, much less anything that even comes close to an ability to personally practice such principles.

They spent $2.5M on what has to be the most expensive, the least desirable, and the most useless possible site for a park within the entire city limits. This is stewardship?

God help us all from whatever action this board is planning on taking at their next meeting. Is there any possible limit on how wide and deep the swath of stupidity and destruction will be between now and the next election?

Host Ted,

The post made on September 12, 2008 10:16 AM is not relevant to the content of this subject thread. Worse than a thread hijack this post is nothing more than an ongoing personal attack.

I would sincerely appreciate it if you and the other Potluck moderators would decline to post submissions which are solely perpetuating a personal attack and which do not further discussion of the thread subject.

Certain posters have demonstrated a propensity for engaging in flame wars that only serve to reduce the credibility and reputation of Potluck. At the same time these posters have exceeded respectable limits on good manners and reasonable expectation of the right to free speech.

I, for one, have had my fill of reading this continuing nonsense. I am sick and tired or reading all of the lame and inexplicable defenses and rationales of why this continued behavior is justified. It isn't. I encourage everyone else who is is a user of Potluck and who also is completely fed up with reading this steady stream of nonsense to please contact Host Ted and voice their displeasure.

Thank you

Kevin and Anonymous,

I agree for the most part with both of your posts! Very eloquently said in both cases!

Here is my take!

At the height of the real estate bubble they paid Dr. Soper $2.5 million dollars for this flood prone property.

Now we are in the valley of the real estate burst and the Park District agrees to pay the same price that was paid at the peak of the bubble.

There is not one person in this town who does not know that in the last 2 years both land and home prices collapsed. Hello, anyone on the Park Disctrict Board ever hear of the sub-prime mortgage mess or understand its roots! Hello!

Park Board President Suzanne Hart believes the Park District has been a good steward of taxpayer funds! Who is she trying to kid?

Yahoo at one time was valued at 500 dollars a share at the peak of the stock market bubble. After the collapse, it was valued at $25 dollars a share.

If a mutual fund director bought Yahoo shares at 500 dollars after they collapsed to 25 dollars, would he be a good steward of his mutual fund investors? I think not! Most likely he would be fired immediately.

President Suzanne Hart and the other 3 who voted to pay the BUBBLE PRICE instead of the BURST PRICE should be recalled in a special election!

And what recreational value can be served by a mud pit! I have stepped on that property many times and my shoes end up with 2 inches of mud each time. Whether it is a flood plain or only flood prone, it is not suitable for any kind of recreation!

I could undertand the Dupage Forest Preserve buying it for its BURSTED VALUE of maybe 1 million dollars. But I can not understand the Park District buying it for its BUBBLE VALUE of $2.5 million dollars. Total insanity if you ask me! And bloggers are asking me to point out the connections in this town! I will only point them out to someone who is completely "BLIND."

Who pays $417,000 dollars per acre for swamp land. Usually the fools that watch those INFORMERCIALS all night long while dreaming awake!

This is just business as usual if your one of the lucky few to have a golden Naperville surname or are otherwise admitted into the Naperville Insiders Club. The Wehrli owned Crestview Builders, one of the Naperville area’s biggest homebuilding and land development firms having built over 1,400 homes in Naperville and nearby communities, now can get nearly all their money back from this swamp land. They are out maybe 200K on this deal. They would have lost much much more if they had to sell it for real at the current market price. I’m glad that the Park District was able to bail them out. Naperville is nothing if not business friendly. Hey maybe the Park District could bail me out too. The value of my house has dropped more than the little 7.4% drop that Crestview had to take. Maybe they could buy my property too for an artificially inflated price. Oh that’s right, I don’t have the right name.

Business as Usual,

Any chance any of the current park district board members are somehow related to Wehrli or doing business with him or his family?

This "deal" stinks to high heaven and I have to wonder if there isn't a lot more to this story than we are reading about...

When in doubt.... follow the money...

Business as Usual,

You got it! Yes, you don't have the right last name!

It seems odd that bloggers are challenging AA to show the connections in this town. I mean how much more obvious can these connections be.

This bail-out as your refer to it is very sickening since it is at taxpayer expense. They over paid for swamp land at the peak of the bubble and then we give them a full refund for not doing their due diligence before buying. Top that with the fact that we buy the swamp land back for full price after land values collapsed. I just don't get the rationale of these Park District Board Members.

First, they hire the wrong guy for Executive Director. Then they hire a possibly connected former police officer who has no experience in parks or recreation. And now they buy us swamp land for 2.5 million bucks. I believe these guys on the Board are unpaid. I guess you get what you pay for. We are getting nothing from this group and giving them nothing.

Nothing in means nothing out! That is where we stand!

Business as Usual,
The Park District over paid for this land no doubt. But why the attacks on the Wehrli family? Do you know any of them? I know a few, just from being wround town and no business connections to any of them and they, for the most part, do more for Naperville than most. Bashing them because of the size of their family and the fact that many of them are business owners is missguided. Most of them are pretty tight with the dime and wouldn't lend one to you if asked!

If you want to see who controls what in this town go to the state board of elections website and see who donated to who's election fund! I think you will be surprised to see who the "estabishment" party in this town really is!! The law firm that shall remain nameless is not as power-pedeling as people think, but look at the website and see what big developments gave to certain elected officials and you tell me who is looking out for who.

You can bash Wehrli's for being Wehrli's, a fun thing to do no doubt, but the bigger deal that no one is talking about needs to be revealed! Take the time to look at who is donating money to ALL elected officials, in all their funds and I think that you will find your angst is guided in the wrong direction!

Elections for some of the Naperville Park District board members will happen next April.

Now is the time to start discussing the pro and con of current board members who are up for re-election and most especially their voting records. Of course this discussion will really get going in earnest once the filing deadline has passed and we know for sure who will be on the ballot... both incumbents and new candidates.

I suspect that the incumbents have a really long and hard road ahead if they choose to run for re-election. Some of their damage is done, some of it can still be mended. One thing is for sure, all voters in the district need to pay attention to who the candidates are, their qualifications, credentials, experience, and their stand on issues.

As for the Executive Director, he would be well advised to keep his resume polished and plenty of copies handy.

FOR THE RECORD

Voting to acquire:

-Suzanne Hart, President

-Gerry Heide

-Kristin Jungles

-Andrew Schaffner

Voting against acquisition:

-Marie Todd, Vice President

Absent:

-Mary Wright

-Ron Ory

Valuation

John Burns Real Estate Consulting consults with over 2000 of the largest banks and homebuilders in the country, according to his broad base studies the housing market has declined 12% in median price since housing market peaked in 2005 and will drop an additional 10% by the end of 2009, a 22% drop in price from the peak.

The National Association of Realtors web site has lots of good statistical information, none of which is positive for the housing market. Their affordability index includes Principal, Interest and Insurance to generate a monthly payment number for the median home. What it does not include is taxes which vary by local; therefore, if taxes have increased faster than the rate of inflation, like here in Naperville, it seems only logical that to reach the affordability number the amount of Principal will have to drop further than it might have in a low tax area to reach equilibrium.

For example: If you can only afford $1,400 a month and taxes increased from $200 to 400, then one of the other numbers has to give in order to hit the affordability number. Given that the credit worthiness of the USA is now being put under strain by the nationalization of $5 Trillion in debt from Fannie and Gini (sp) May, and the collapse of brand name financial institutions it seems unlikely that interest rates will be going down anytime soon that leaves principal and insurance. Principal is going to lose.

Translation, if you purchased you home after 2001 you will be lucky if the pricing collapse hits bottom at your original purchase price.

If the land under the houses follows the same credit bubble cycle, the value of the Ponds land may be calculated as $2.5MM x .78 = $1.95MM assuming that the $2.5MM was a fair valuation in the first place; soil conditions etc..

I am a neighbor of Hobson Ponds..and was totally against the Park District purchasing the property. A total waste of the taxpayer's money. Please remember those on the Park Board who voted to spend $2.5 Million of our tax money for this ridiculous waste of tax dollars......Hart..Heide..Jungles..Schaffner.

Compliments to Marie Todd for her intelligent vote.

Can they give Eli Hodapp a discount to get him out of the downtown scene. He would likely then complain about the frogs making noise in the pond.