By Robert Starinsky on January 17, 2010 12:21 AM

Another option, if cost alone is driving the decision, is to consider fire district consolidation. This issue has been raised at the DuPage County board level by board member Grant Eckhoff within the past few months.

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Naperville has consolidated its fire protection with Naperville, Wheatland and DuPage Township Fire Protection Districts.

One of the nation's most affluent smaller cities - Scottsdale Arizona - has for years relied on outsourced (privatized) fire protection services.

So, to respond to your question: "Could private companies realistically handle responding to emergencies at a lower cost?" The answer, at least as it applies to fire protection, is yes it can be (and is being) done.

To respond to your concern: "Should such important services be trusted to private enterprise instead of to monopolistic municipalities?" It would be important for important public concerns, such as emergency response time, to be reduced to writing (and subsequently enforced) within the governing contract between the municipality and the fire service provider. Periodic contractual reviews would mean that a contractor that is not performing, could be replaced with another private operator/provider.

Another option, if cost alone is driving the decision, is to consider fire district consolidation. This issue has been raised at the DuPage County board level by board member Grant Eckhoff within the past few months.

Consolidation is a less radical step than privatization, but expands rather than reduces the notion of municipal monopolistic control. Such an arrangement would require Naperville to combine its fire services with those of other DuPage County municipal fire departments and fire protection districts to form a regional (countywide) fire protection agency. Several counties, including Fairfax County, Virginia and Marion County, Indiana are examples of such combinations.

It's important to understand that fire service consolidation or privatization are not simple matters and requires a deep understanding of the many issues involved. To that end, I have tasked the students in my Marketing 313 class to research these issues as well as the advantages and disadvantages of fire service consolidation and privatization during the current Winter 2010 academic quarter.

Interested parties can RSVP me to attend the presentation of their findings on Thursday February 18, 2010 at 7:30pm.

Robert Starinsky (rstarinsky@robertmorris.edu)
Lecturer, Management and Marketing
Robert Morris University
Bensenville, Illinois

President Rick Sander,

Naperville Professional Firefighters Local 4302

Are sure you want to take the Firemen and Police Pension fund and try to invest it for a higher return?

Last time I wrote you the Dow was down 504. Today it is down 449! Almost 1000 points in 2 days. It is down 25% in the last year.

And you want to invest your firemen buddies money for better returns. Who is going to make up this 25% the average investor and mutual fund lost in the last year? You got it...us taxpayers! Forget matching funds of 9.46% this year. Try 34.46% and let us see if that works!!!

Investors lost 700 billion dollars today in the USA. The Russian Stock Market appears on the verge of complete collapse. How much of the losses today came from the police and firemen pension funds???

I think the firemen should ask for your resignation for trying to risk their money for better returns.

First Community Bank of Naperville is offering 4.35% on a one year CD. Why don't you be wise and put some money there for your fire fighter buddies. Protect them and protect us taxpayers from bailing you out year after year. That is a great return considering it is FDIC insured.

I hope some one can knock some sense in you since I have not been able to.

As I said you seem like you can talk the talk but can't walk the walk!

Revenue into the City of Naperville is estimated to be down 5 MILLION DOLLARS from the prior year according to Councilman Bob at yesterday's City Council Meeting.

If the budget increases 5% from last year's $380,000,000 million that will be $19,000,000 dollars more needed.

If you have $19 million in increased costs and expenses while your revenue decreases $5 million, you have a budget deficit of 24 million dollars for the latest fiscal year.

We have roughly 50,000 homes in Naperville. This could translate to an increase of $480 dollars per household. If you want to assume commercial can burden $80 dollars of this $480 dollars, the average homeowner will see an increase of $400 dollars on his tax bill as it relates to the City of Naperville portion of his tax bill. Any increases related to schools, townships, or county are above and beyond this city increase.

This is what happens when a city stops growing and does not make adjustments to its staff levels.

This is what happens when a city gives raises it can not afford.

This is what happens when a city hires 21 year old police officers and fire fighters and offers them a starting salary of nearly 60k with 75% pensions when they retire at age 51.

This is what happens when the city feels a need to build 5 parking decks downtown that generate no direct revenue to the city.

This is what happens when the city refuses to build one parking deck by the train station that could generate massive direct revenue to the city.

This is what happens when employees like City Manager Pro Tem Robert Marshall and Park District Executive Director Ray McGury are allowed to collect both a salary and a pension concurrently.

This is what happens when you feel a need to build statutes of deceased establishment folks at taxpayer expense instead of through private funding.

This is what happens when you invest $1.5 million to remodel an already beautiful Riverwalk that we all loved AS IS!!!

This is what happens when a Park District decides to pay twice the value for flood prone or swamp land to a favorite son with a cousin on the city council to bail him out of an apparently bad investment that went sour when the subprime mortgage bubble imploded.

This is what happens and happened!!!

This is the real reason the Fire House is being postponed for now.

This is the real reason the city can not afford 12 more fire officers at the current time. Forty thousand for winterizing use to be chump change to the City of Naperville and would never interfere with a project.

Anyway I can go on but will leave that for another post.

If you were watching last nights city council meeting, you would have found the City Council Members finally woke up to the warning on this blog site by others and I, and finally instituted a HIRING FREEZE on all city employees without excepetion.

This is a move in the right direction. Too bad they had to wait this long. But there is an election going on and they want to pretend they care suddenly. Do they really care! If so, why do they wait until they pick up their elections packets at City Hall.

Do they care about the $400 dollar increase in your real estate taxes they are about to hammer you with or do they just want to put the freeze on until elections are over, to say that we tried to do something???

In my opinion it is too little too late. You take precautionary measure before the Tsunami hits...not after.

The Tsunami will separate you from your wallets and purses in ways umimaginable this coming tax year.

If you have a million dollar home, expect an increase of $1000 dollars in the city portion of your real estate tax. If your home is worth $400,000 expect an increase of about $400.

Citizens have been warned on this blog site what was about to happen. The Naperville Sun was aware what was about to happen. Maybe everyone was in denial!

But the damn is breaking. A city council member admitted last night that city revenues are down $5 million while we all know city expenses are up as is routine. The TAX RATE will be up astronimically.

I sense the City Council finally wants to at least consider begin laying people off. At least Council members Bob and Dick. I commend CM Dick Furstenau for demanding a FREEZE! What surprised me is that the Council finally seemed to agree with him and support him.

Even though that is very good, it really may be a little too late.

The next step is to eliminate home rule so we never get to the CRISES STATE we are in. If we would have limited ourselves to 5% increase in the past, we would not have this Financial Hurricane that is about to hit us!

Let us hope we can ride this hurricane better than Texas handled Ike!!!

Firefighters also have asked for broader investment latitude so that our pension fund investments can take advantage of market growth. We will continue to responsibly monitor the investment markets and work toward strengthening our funds without asking for additional funds from taxpayers.

As taxpayers, we understand the concerns of property owners in Naperville and we will continue to serve our community proudly while we look for ways to strengthen the future of our retirement funds without adding to the tax burden.

Rick Sander

President

Naperville Professional Firefighters Local 4302

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President Rick Sander,

Those are great words.

With the Dow down 504.48 and Nasdaq down 81.36 today alone, I suspect while your words are well chosen, you will not be able to implement or execute on your words.

I will bet you any amount of money you will be coming to the Naperville Taxpayer for additional funds and that our tax burden will increase.

It would be nice if you would simply admit that 75% pensions pay-outs after 30 years of employment are simply not sustainable under the current pension system....even if we FULLY match your 9.46% contribution which I consider fair.

Anything above matching your 9.46% contribution, I find UNACCEPTABLE. My math indicates what you are trying to do is simply IMPOSSIBLE!

You may need a lot more than the 21.16% we the taxpayers gave you last year. Maybe twice as much if not more per year! You need to smell the coffee at some point.

At some point you will have to held accountable for the words in your above letter. I hope I am wrong! But I doubt it!

BUMP

ANOTHER ANONYMOUS you said "It seems apparent you have to be very well connected to land a job in the NPD or NFD". Can you share how this works? Are there multiple family members all working for these departments? Don't they have to take a test? Please inform us. Thanks.

To:
Rick Sander
President
Naperville Professional Firefighters Local 4302

Rick,

IMHO we have great Fire and PD services, I don't pretend to know the operational budgets and whether we are buying too many paper clips or not. I'll leave that up to the managers.

The issue, in my mind, is the overall increase in property tax bills which are made up of several components not the least of which are the school districts.

If the various government bodies can not get the total cost under control, we will continue to hemorrhage high paying jobs from our major employers who are the ones that built Naperville, not the developers, Realtors or bar owners.

While the PD and Fire pension plans seem to be in need of a tune up if not an overhaul, it is the school taxes that are sinking the good ship Naperville.

When the contracts are up next year, I hope we don't need to go into a total meltdown strike which is totally skewed in favor of the unions. But, keeping the kids home from September until Christmas may be the only way to right the ship. I'm not sure we can afford any more capital projects in the near future either.

If someone in government land has a spread sheet that shows the total tax bill coming down in Naperville, please put it up on the web so we can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Keep the pumps running!

Bubo

As I am watching the stcok market today, I am hoping the police and firemen pensions are not invested in all these financial companies that are failing left and right on Wall Street!

I guess Lehman Brothers just failed and filed for bankruptcy today.

AIG, the largest insurance company, in the world could fail if the US Govt. does not extend a 40 billion dollar bridge. The govt seems willing to let it fail. Many teacher and municipal pensions across the country are heavily invested in AIG and Lehman Brothers! Bank of America managed to save Merrill Lynch this morning by buying it. There is a chance Warren Buffet will save AIG but the latest report on CNBC is indicating he BACKED OFF!

Hopefully the police and firemen, if they owned any shares in AIG, sold their shares two weeks ago before the 90% collapse. If they did not the taxpayers will be SCREWED....AGAIN!

I hope the police and firemen heed my advice and only invest in safe FDIC insured bank CDs. Their president wants to take higher risks in hopes of better returns. This is not the right time for risk taking!

The city needs to recompute pension returns based on safe investments in the banks or US Treasury. They need to plan on future 3.5% investment returns and inform the taxpayer what he/she trully owes to subsidize these pensions. At that point the taxpayer can make an informed decision as to how much they are willing to put in these pensions. Of course, if city council members don't listen to the taxpayer, the residents can reverse home rule and limit them to 5% tax increases. That would force bankruptcy on the police and fire pensions. Almost instantly!

Better still take the police and firemen out of their failed pension system and provide them with Social Security like the rest of the population in Naperville. That way we don't have to subsidize them year after year and deal with these humongous pension deficits.

The experts are stating the financial health of the stock market will not return till some time in 2010. I think they may be optimistic. With no returns this year, are we expected to make matching contributions of over 30% or 40% to the police and firemen.

These risky investment that the police and firemen may be in, will cost us taxpayers tons of money resulting in higher real estate taxes.

Let us hope our City Officials investigate the pension mess before it gets worse. Someone will have to be held accountable at election time which is just around the corner!!!

Trying to Understand,

Instead of rambling, why don't you dispute the facts I have provided.

1. Firemen pay 9.46% of their salary towards their pension fund.

2. Last year the City of Naperville provided matching funds to to the firemen pension fund of 21.16% of salaries.

3. The police and firemen are vested 2.5% per year up to 30 years of service.

4.This amounts to 75% of final salary in the form of pension retirements funds per year.

5.If they start at age 21, they can retire fully vested at age 51. If they start at age 25, they can retire fully vested at age 55.

6. Firemen will get paid 75% of their final salary plus cost of living increases until they leave this earth. Even if they live till 115 years old they will be paid for every year even if it amounts to 64 years in retirement.

7. Unlike civilians who must wait till 70 years of age to receive FULL Social Security benefits, firemen can receive their full benefits as early as 51 if they begin their careers at 21.

8.If a fireman does not wish to work for 30 years, he can retire after 20 years and collect a 50% pension instead of a 75% pension.

9. Private employers only match 6.2% of employees wages. City of Naperville matches whatever is necessary to make sure firemen get 75% after they retire in 30 years. If their investments have 0 return or even negative returns, the taxpayers foot the difference to make sure the firemen get 75% rain or shine when they retire after 30 years of public service.

10. All this has resulted in a 53 million deficit jointly for the police and firemen pension fund that is getting worse instead of better.

11. My guess is the matching contribution for the fiscal year 2008 is probably greater than that of 2007. Otherwise the numerous city officials who read this blog site most likely would have provided the good news that the matching funds decreased for 2008. Silence by city officials usually means the situation got worse. In the old days when the tax rates got lower, the city officials could not contain themselves.

12. This year due to the substantially reduced real estate values in town, I can GUARANTEE every resident in town that his TAX RATE will go up considerably since the city of Naperville has cut little to nothing in the way of GOVERNMENT COSTS and EXPESES. Not sure what impact postpoing Fire Station number 10 till next year will have on the this year's budget. It may push some expenses into next year to make this year's budget look as nice as possible since it is an ELECTION YEAR....but regardless, it will still be a disastrous budget that will result in substantial real tax increases...not just TAX RATE increases related to decreasing real estate values!

If you feel I am misinforming the public, please feel free to step forward and point out my mistakes. Just saying you are leaving this site seems like a cop-out to me! Show us your facts! Show us your knowledge! Educate us!

I am not a fireman and have no fireman friends and was able to learn the pension system in a few short days.

If you are a lot closer to the firemen and the pension system than I am, what is your take then? Talk is cheap! Show us what you know! Show us what you understand! Prove me wrong! The floor is all yours unless you want to cop-out!

As of today this will be my last time on this site. I cannot believe the wasted time I have spent reading these blogs about how the pensions are run. The truth is, by reading your blogs, you have absolutely no idea how pensions are funded, invested, payouts/age or what rules actually govern the pensions. Your so-called knowledge is no more informative than if I were to rattle off information about your retirement planning, contributions, severance packages, expense accounts (which I'm sure is 100% accurate right?), pay scales or what other perks go along with your "50 hour a week Fourtune 500 job" that you worked so hard to get. Remember, our job was just handed to us because we knew somebody right? (again you should look into the whole firefighter process before you sound uneducated, too late for that).

I'm glad you think the pension is the "golden cow", but do a little more research and then form your opinion once you have ALL the facts. Then, share your thoughts with your fellow bloggers. In case you are wondering, yes I am a lot closer to a fireman and the pension than are you.

Have a great day!

I am shocked as to what is being written on the blog site. Somehow it brings an understanding as to how are taxes got away from us the last decade. I wish the city would return to non home rule and limit our tax increases to 5% which is still hardly bearable since most people are only getting 3% raises these days. My purchasing power has declined on an annual basis.

It does seem a bit odd when we pay a starting fireman somewhere between 57.5k and 60k per year when other communities pay so much less. There is no requirement they have to live in Naperville. Many employees work in Naperville and do not live in Naperville. Maybe we should keep the McDonalds and 7-Eleven employees happy by paying them 60k so they can live amongst us and not be so hostile and say thank you to us after each transaction. This is not a perfect world.
If anything we should be paying firemen much less, since they have fringe benefits unheard of in the private sector such as these humongous pensions.

I read an editorial written by a Sun Editor in the Sun and I totally disagree with this editor. I could not believe she could justify this high pay! I thought she would watch out for the taxpayer and help us reduce high taxes and not jusitfy them.

I would like to see our City Officials do something about reducing taxes before the next election. If I don't see a reduction in taxes, I will be voting for all the new candidates to city council whomever they may be!

I have been in Naperville for 4 decades. I was hoping to retire here. Unfortunately, I could not.

Recently my wife and I bought a home in North Carolina. Our taxes will only be $1879 annually for a home of similar size. Almost one fourth of what we pay here in taxes.

For the most part I agree with Another Anonymous. It seems like he/she is got a grasp of what is happening to ruin our tax structure.

There is a limit as to what a city can do for public safety employees. I don't think our city officials understand what that limit is.

According to the scenario painted by AA, the situation will get much worse before it gets any better. I tend to agree!

I also don't see how 212 active firemen can subsidize 212 retired firemen in the near future when 200 firemen can't support 36 at the moment.

I commend those who are fighting City Hall on this blog site. I am too old to fight so I am departing town. Good luck to all those who remain to fight the battle!

What's wrong with the fire station at Rt 59 and 103rd? It's right down the street!! Wouldn't it be cheaper to expand this one? Napervillians! Checked out your tax bills lately???

BUMP

Another Anonymous you said :It seems apparent you have to be very well connected to land a job in the NPD or NFD: Can you share how this works? Are there multiple family members all working for these departments? Don't they have to take a test? Please inform us. Thanks.

Host Ted,
I posted this post on another thread accidentally yesterday. Since it is a response to a letter in the Naperville Sun by the President of the Firefighters Local 4302, I feel it would be more appropriate to post it here on this Firemen's Thread. I also changed all the erroneous 9.91% fire fighter contributions to the correct 9.46% contributions to make it more accurate after tracking down CM Bob's May 27, 2008 post! I feel it is important that we always be accurate and correct our mistakes when we find them.

Thanks!

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By Another Anonymous on September 9, 2008 1:30 PM
Firefighters union backs pension system reform

Members of the Naperville Professional Firefighters (Local 4302) share the concern of our community over the solvency and viability of firefighters' pension funds.

As Mike Mitchell's story in the Aug. 24 Sun notes, firefighters contribute nearly 10 percent of our salaries to our pension fund.

Our pension contributions remain constant. What fluctuates is the employer's share of contributions and investment returns, which is why we supported reforms to funding methods.

Unfortunately, a loophole in existing law allows local governments to hire independent actuaries who can overestimate investment returns on pension funds. As a result, some public safety pension funds (which include those for police officers) may have seen growing gaps in proper funding.

Firefighters also have asked for broader investment latitude so that our pension fund investments can take advantage of market growth. We will continue to responsibly monitor the investment markets and work toward strengthening our funds without asking for additional funds from taxpayers.

As taxpayers, we understand the concerns of property owners in Naperville and we will continue to serve our community proudly while we look for ways to strengthen the future of our retirement funds without adding to the tax burden.

Rick Sander

President

Naperville Professional Firefighters Local 4302

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President Rick Sander(Firefighters Local 4302),

I took the liberty to post part of your letter which was published in the print edition of the Naperville Sun.

You seem to be patting yourself on the back because your pension contributions remain constant at 9.46% and indicating everything else may be the problem because of fluctuations. I and every taxpayer would love to match your contribution of 9.46% and remain constant year after year. We would love to have that luxury. We don't mind giving you matching contributions of 9.46% even though our employers only give us matching contributions of 6.2% for our Social Security as required by Federal Law.

The reason that the City of Naperville can't remain constant as you guys are at 9.46% is because you guys want to retire at age 51 with 75% of your final salary. Those two 9.46% contributions(yours and the taxpayers) could never allow you this luxury even with a good return on invested money because they are not nearly close to making those kinds of pay-outs possible.

Are you aware the taxpayers paid not only 9.46% into your fund last year but 21.16% and we still have a $53 million defict shortfall.

We would be all for you guys to take your 9.46% and our 9.46%, invest it as you please and where you please, and pay yourself according to what you have or are capable of making.

Trying to get better investment returns is not so easy. You need to take on riskier investments for better returns and lately risky investments such as Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae netted negative 90% returns. I would recommend taking the money and playing it safe in banks with complete FDIC insurance. One reason you firemen are in such a deep hole is because of your poor investments.

Naperville and its taxpayers have been consistant and constant in funding you at least the matching 9.46%. The only reason that it is not constant is that they have had to double the matching funds to keep it from becoming a 100 million deficit instead of a 53 million deficit.

The story is not about actuaries who overestimated returns. They estimated the market would do 8.5% and it appears to have done less. No one can estimate what the market will do. They should estimate a 4% conservative bank return and set your pensions accordingly. The problem is firemen seemed to feel a sense of entitlement that they deserve a 75% pension at age 51 and in the end, you and I know, that can only come if you dip very deep into the taxpayers' pockets.

For you to allege that you care about the taxpayers, amounts to hogswash. All you care is about getting your 75% pension benefits. You and I know that is only sustainable if the taxpayers pay at least 50% matching contribution funds. A constant 9.46% will not do it from our side unless you guys agree to retire at age 65 and accept a 50% pension instead of a 75% pension. At that point, it is possible that you would not need any more funds from us besides the matching funds we do and should provide.

You talk the talk but are not willing to walk the walk. You do not want to make sacrifices but you want the taxpayers to make the sacricfices for you.

At this point 200 Firemen paying 9.46% into the pension fund can not support 3 dozen retired firemen. Need I remind you with 200 contributing and so few retirees, you are 53 million in the hole...deficit in accounting terms!

In 2 decades you will have 212 active firemen paying 9.46%(plus matching funds from the taxpayers of course) trying to support 212 retired firemen. Can you not see what an obstacle that will be for your children and our children to provide for 212 Firemen demanding 90k for their 40 years of retirment...plus I am sure some cost of living raises.

This will amount to $19,080,000 in the first year and probably close to $800,000,000 for 40 years if you factor in some Cost of Living Increases. How do you suppose we are going to be able to come up with that kind of money?

You claim you want your pension fund to be properly funded like Social Security and 401Ks. Well, the reason 401ks are always properly funded is because they pay out according to what one has accumulated in them. In other words if they can only afford to pay out 2000 dollars a month that is all they do. But if they tried to pay out 7-8000 dollars a months as your funds do, they would also not be properly funded.

Social Security also is temporarily properly funded because the pay-outs are reasonable. My Mon worked 40 years before retiring and receives $930 dollars per month....that is it! If the social security tried to pay her and every other citizen $7000 per month as police and firemen receive, they would be not only improperly funded but bankrupt.

I don't think you guys in the police and fire department get it. You guys are underfunded because you are asking too much in retirement pensions combined with asking for a very young retirement age. That is the crux of the problem.

401k don't have guaranteed returns on investment. They make what they make and people find a way to live on it by buckling up.

Basically, you guys are trying to say if we find the next Google Stock, we will have our 75% without much additional funding from the taxpayer. But if we don't find the next Google Stock, we will come to you, rain or shine, so that you make sure we get our 75% retirement pension pay-outs! That is what you are saying while pretending to be taxpayer friendly.

The taxpayers did not short you last year or any year. Last year we gave you 21.16% in taxpayer contributions to help you guys out even though we pay into your fund annually whatever is required of us. The numbers will never work out until you fire fighters either agree to make 50% contributions, increase your retirement age and/or reduce your pension beneifts. It may even take all 3 to make ends meet as far as what you guys are expecting and promised by the establishment folks who are clueless to the depth of the fiasco they created.

Another thing you can do to help firemen and taxpayers is reduce the starting salary before the next 12 are hired for Fire Station #10. As I have pointed out before, reducing the starting salary by 20k and bringing it in line with other towns reduces the pension outlays by at least $15,000 per year for any future employee. Avoiding unnecessary promotions in the last year would also help keep pension costs down.

I think if you are sincere in conquering this problem, you need to compose a new letter to the editor.

Good luck, President Rick Sander!

I expect you to keep your promise and not ask for additional funds from the taxpayers or add to our tax burden! Talk is cheap....let us see if you can walk the walk. Maybe you can start by asking the taxpayers to limit their contributiions to 9.46% this year and relieve of us of any additional 21.16% bail-outs as we just did in the most recent year.

Thank you!

I forgot to insert the word NOT in my last post on this thread.

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"I see a little contradicition when CM Bob does "NOT" need an FOI REQUEST but the Naperville Sun and citizens of this town need one! I hope CM Bob can address this issue with city officials and demand they be more transparent! Thanks in advance to CM Bob!"

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Hopefully CM Bob will be kind enough to obtain the latest 2008 Fiscal Year Numbers.

It would be nice if another Council Member stepped up to the plate and took some pressure off CM Bob from having to do all the work needed to help the bloggers on Ted's Threads.

Host Ted,
Regarding my earlier post "By Another Anonymous on September 9, 2008 6:46 AM" that was posted late in the day and out of order I would like to make a correction.

The fire department has been stating that they pay near 10%. So I assumed they paid the 9.91% that was stuck in my memory from a Councilman Bob post. In truth they only pay 9.46% while we pay 21.16% in matching funds.

I took the time to dig up the actual numbers from an old post by Councilman Bob so I could get the numbers straight for police officers and fire fighters. I had the numbers memorized correctly but mixed up the police officers with the firefighters. My apologies!

Below is part of CM Bob's post verbatim that contains the percentages:

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By Councilman Bob on May 27, 2008 11:21 AM
Here are the answers to Belinda's questions:

QUESTIONS: How much does a police officer pay towards his pension per paycheck as a percent of his gross income? What do the taxpayers directly and indirectly pay towards his pension? Do policemen and firemen have equal pensions?

ANSWERS FROM CITY FINANCE DIRECTOR:

Most recent data is for fiscal year 2007 (May 1, 2006 - April 30, 2007).

For FY 07, Police contributed 9.91% of their pay to their pension. Fire contributed 9.46%. City contributions are limited to the property tax line item and contributed an additional 18.7% for police and 21.16% for fire. The two groups do not have equal pensions. City contributions are up recently due to the underfunded status of the plans.

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Please reread my post of 6:46am and keep in mind the Firemen's contribution was only 9.46% and not 9.91% as I stated or 10% as President Rick Sander of Firefighters Local 4302 stated.

It seems like no one will correct you when you make an error to the benefit of the firemen. The minute you use an estimate that may not favor the firemen, the fireman's friends as they call themselves jump on you!

BTW, I think Naperville firemen and firewomen are great employees and never had an issue with any one of them or their performance. I simply feel they are extremely over paid and over pensionalized at an unbearable cost to the Naperville Taxpayer. That is the jist of my COMPLAINT! Period!

Outside of this one error I stand by my post of "By Another Anonymous on September 9, 2008 6:46 AM" that many may have missed as it was posted several hours after posts that were written later in the day!

Thanks for finding it and posting it, Host Ted!

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PS. Maybe CM Bob could be kind enough and obtain the numbers for the latest fiscal year which ended April 30, 2008. I would be curious to see if the funding by the taxpayers got better or worse than this 21.16% which I consider horrendous in light of the fact we still have a $53 million pension funding deficit!

Or maybe Host Ted can ask for the most recent numbers directly from the Finance Director and we can see if the City of Naperville wants to be TRANSPARENT or keep pulling this FOI ACT bolony on information that should be public and assessible to all TAXPAYERS without time consuming FOI REQUESTS.

I see a little contradicition when CM Bob does need an FOI REQUEST but the Naperville Sun and citizens of this town need one! I hope CM Bob can address this issue with city officials and demand they be more transparent! Thanks in advance CM Bob!

Again, I urge all to vote for CM Bob as he has been the only CM willing to help us on this blog site. Let us show him some appreciation by voting him back in office!

So to recap where we are at this point...

The city basically demanded the land from the developer in exchange for granting annexation... sounds awfully close to blackmail or extortion. Why this developer considering the wide range of service area each fire station covers? Why aren't the other developers of all of the other new communities around it chipping in proportionately?

If this fire station has truly "...been needed for a couple of years now to properly protect that area of Naperville" then why is the city and the fire department behind the curve on this? Why are they not planning to have services in place before parts of the community are under served? If this fire station had been build a couple of years ago when it was needed to properly protect that area of Naperville we could have saved even more money by avoiding the increased materials and labor costs in the intervening years.

No one has clarified why a fire station... which is basically nothing more than a large garage with an attached sleeping quarters is costing Naperville taxpayers an equivalent amount on a square foot basis to build new hospital space. New hospital space has the highest square foot cost as it is and the scope and complexity of a fire station doesn't even come close to a hospital.

How did the project managers of the new fire station allow the cost get so far out of control that it is now costing at least double what it should? The fire department owes all Naperville tax payers a detailed explanation of exactly why this project is costing us twice as much as it should and exactly what justifies this price increase. If the Naperville fire department can not come up with a logical and compelling rationale that justifies these cost overruns then the city council better take a red pen to the construction budget and show the fire department administration how to control their own costs.

And if that is ultimately what becomes necessary the city council should well consider these financial management abilities in their decision making process as they continue to narrow the search for the next fire chief.

Another Anonymous you said :It seems apparent you have to be very well connected to land a job in the NPD or NFD: Can you share how this works? Are there multiple family members all working for these departments? Don't they have to take a test? Please inform us. Thanks.

Dear Fellow Bloggers,

With Fannie Man and Freddie Mac going bust over the weekend, one has to understand anyone can go bust if they don't watch the bottom line.

The establishment folks in this town are not watching the bottom line. They are watching their pockets and lining them as well as they can before the BUST eventually comes. They remind me of the CEO officers of the above 2 organizations who lined themselves up for 10-15 million dollars in severance pay while running their companies in a mudpit as severe as the Ponds of Hobson West!

Before these 12 new firemen are hired for Firehouse 10, the city must negotiate with the union for new starting salaries for incoming freshmen firemen. The sooner the better. Paying new firemen reasonable salaries like between 30k and 40k, may give existing firemen who were promised the world, a chance to collect in retirement. But continuing this fasade of paying firemen starting salaries of 60k and retiring pensions of 90k will never work.

As I mentioned in an earlier blog, 200 firemen are struggling to pay the pensions of 3 dozen retired firemen with double matching funds from the taxpayers and they are failing to the tune of $53 million. The reason we have so many firemen and so few retirees is because we were a massively growing town in the 80s and 90s.

Soon we will be a mature town with working firemen equally retiring firemen. Is there no one in this town but me who forsees a disaster on the horizon? Does anyone really feel 200 firemen can support 200 retirees in the coming years by just contributing 9.4% of their pay for these retirees who are getting 75% of their final salaries which at times may be bumped with an end of career raise or promotion as in other towns such as Lisle???

None of our city council members have spoken about this issue maybe except for CM Furstenau who constantly speaks against most government waste! Most of them do not forsee the problem or any problem for that matter. Maybe we have to oust each and every one of them in the next election unless they start addressing this issue of unsustainable pensions before it is too late. Not with movements of the lip but with REAL ACTION!

This pension crises reminds me so much of the subprime mortgage crisis. Everyone was in denial! Every time a bank went down, it was suppose to be the final bank to go under. Every time a mortgage company like Thornburg Mortgage went down, it was suppose to be the last company to go down and we were going to be alright. No one including myself understood the depth of this crises. I personally experienced the loss of my TM common stock to almost zero value. I voted against the Board with my 1000 shares but unfortunately the majority of shareholders were passive and rubber stamped the corrupt board who took the company down!

Now we have Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac going under yesterday. Their stock value each went down about 80% yesterday after having gone down 90% in the last year. They are fried and priced at cents today! The investors will lose all their money! And the taxpayers will probablyh pay 200 billion for the bail-out! At least the government stepped in late which is better than never.

The government in Naperville has its head in the sand. They can not see a Financial Hurricane coming to this town, even when the writing is on the wall. The passive and sleepy taxpayers must wake up or we will experience a Thornburg Mortgage as I experienced because I could not rally the stockholers in that company during the annual meetings I attended....they simply towed the company line as most residents in Naperville are towing the establishment line blindly!

Our growth in Naperville is down to less than 1% from upwards of 10-15%. What adjustments have city officials made in personnal to adjust for this decline in growth? None! The employees related to growth are still gainfully employed even though 90% of them are no longer needed. One can do the job of 10 now, but we let the other 9 hang on as excess fat. Business as usual for the establishment!

I have issued my warnings over and over again. No one is listening!

Doomsday is on the horizon! I hope one day in the future I don't have to reveal my identity and say, "I told you so."

I hope Host Ted does something to warn our city officials of the slippery slope they are on, in case they do not read this blog site.

If I were Host Ted, I would want to be on record warning citizens, that our city officials are taking us down the toilet while they prosper. Expect them to all retire to Florida when the sh*t hits the fan! IF we don't hold them accountable now it will be impossible to hold them accountable when they flee to Florida. Florida is a homestead state and most of their assets will be off limits to the Naperville Taxpayer in the event we can prove they brought a costly financial mess to the residents and taxpayers of Naperville due to their GROSS NEGLIGENCE in a class action lawsuit!

Let us not forget that the 2 cities that Blogger Diana found in California that paid their police and fire fighter more than we do, have since both filed BANKRUPTY! They could not sustain those outrageous salaries and pensions. Why does anyone think we can!?!

In those towns the establishment was so connected to the police and fire unions, that they agreed to increase their pensions to 90% in the final year before bankruptcy. I guess making each other fat was not enough for those hip folks in California. They finally slaughtered each other because greed got the better of all of them.

Let us be smarter than these California towns. I believe according to Blogger Diana, we may be paying the highest salary in the nation since the 2 ahead of us both filed bankruptcy. Even Alaska where the cost of living is much higher than Naperville does not pay their firemen as much as we do.

Blogger "Ray" of Truth considers the police and firemen to be like the sixth branch of the military service to this country. He considers this a good comparison. Well, if it is a good comparison why do we need to pay our public safety employees 3-5 times what the other branches of the military pay? Aren't they doing identical or similar work? Aren't they also keeping us safe? Are not the other 5 branches of the military sustaining death after death almost daily from the risks they take in keeping us safe and free? We have not had a police officer killed in the line of duty since 1921 and it was due to an unfortunate motorcycle accident. And yet there are bloggers on this site who feel our police officers and fire fighters are taking similar risks in protecting us. Really, I find this very insulting to our men in the military. Very insulting! Insulting to the memories of those 2 brave marines from Naperville we buried with honor last week! Please, let us keep risks and bravery in proper perspective!

And if you want to compare our public safety employees to New York, let us compare the salaries too. We pay almost 25k more than New York does even though they have a higher standard of living and much more risk to life and limb. Yes, 343 brave firemen in New York were killed during 911. They are true heros! No one can dispute that! God Bless Them! The firemen in New York need to be getting paid 25k more than the firemen in Naperville and not the other way around! The establishment in this town seems to see everything upside down thru rose colored glasses...

I don't understand how the military takes so much risk on our behalf and gets paid one third to one fifth of what a Naperville Public Safety Employee gets. People like "Ray" of Truth want to compare them to the military for bravery but does not want to compare them to the military for salary! To me that is hypocrisy to the nth degree!

No offense to our public safety employees, but I think those who go to Iraq and Afghanistan take much more risks than they do! We need to say it as it is. And they deserve to get paid twice as much as our public safety employees.

Are our public safety employees(police and firemen) willing to cough up half their salaries to the US Government in order that these fine men and women in the military can be compensated fairly.

My guess is the police and firemen in this town would never cough up half their paychecks so that their brethen in Iraq and Afghanistan can get paid what they do.

Now please understand we have nothing against you. You are fine people and employees. We are just not willing to cough up half our paychecks in order for you guys to retire at age 51 with 90k pensions for the next 40 or 50 yeares while we struggle day to day and most likely in retirement with this humongous cost, that you and your union are burdening us with. How much simpler can I be with my conveyance?

That is all I have to say for now. I am sorry I am not able to get through to the Friends of the Firemen on this blog site. If you so called friends can't smell the coffee at some point, your budies in the fire and police departments will get nothing due to BANKRUPTY!

Yes, it happened to 2 towns in California, and the police and firemen are getting NOTHING DUE TO BANKRUPTCY!

The only thing that has saved Naperville from Bankrupty is it circumvented the 5% limit on real estate tax increases regulated by the State of Illinois, by declaring itself HOME RULE. Once this is overturned, City Hall Officials, the police officers and the fire fighters are all fried. Let us get them out of the frying pan since they do not appear to be able to rescue themselves out of the RED HOT FRYING PAN!

With everything being said over the last week in this blog, I felt it was my time to respond. Lets look at some facts:

1. Fire Station 10 needs to be built. It has been needed for a couple of years now to properly protect that area of Naperville.
2. Defending Fire Station 10 is not defending firefighters, it is defending the community. This is money well spent on needed services. If we want to address waste, lets look at the statues (Moser’s & Dr. Suess) that could have been postponed until better economic times.
3. Pension discussion has no bearing in this blog. It has nothing to do with a new fire station. Also, anyone can arbitrarily throw out percentages to make their point. How accurate these percentages are is subject to debate. (Basically, 90% of the top 10% of a dollar is still only 9 cents. Get my point?) When one does use percentages, please also include a report or website so that the rest of us can understand where your numbers are coming from. Last point on pensions: it has been said by other bloggers, no money comes directly from the city to fund pensions! It is done through property taxes. (Look at your tax bill.)
4. Mentioning the military is a good comparison. Many of us consider public safety employees (police and fire) the sixth branch of service to this country. Whether the battlefield is over seas, or in a burning building or city alley in this country, that public servant died in battle. Families of these public servants fear just as military families fear when their loved one goes away to serve. Have any of you bloggers been to a police or fire line-of-duty funeral?
5. Lastly, since the Bible has been mentioned, and since we are coming up to the anniversary of 343 firefighters giving their lives to save people who work for Fortune 500 companies, let me offer the Fireman’s Prayer:

When I am called to duty, God
Wherever flames may rage
Give me strength to save a life
Whatever be its age.

Let me embrace a little child
Before it is too late
Or save an older person from
The horror of that fate.

Enable me to be alert
And hear the weakest shout,
And quickly and efficiently
To put the fire out.

I want to fill my calling
To give the best in me,
To guard my friend and neighbor
And protect their property.

And, if, according to your will,
I have to lose my life,
Please bless, with your protecting hand,
My family and my wife.

Sleep well heroes!! You are not forgotten. . . (I hope)

Fireman's Friend,

I think you were being misleading when you tried to compare the starting salary of ONE FIREMAN who is 21 or 22 to the median family income which can include 2 to 4 incomes. Also the median family income is not based on starting salaries but possibly salaries of residents who have been in the job market for 20 years. Keep in mind that many people who live in Naperville earned their way to live in Naperville by being successful in their careers over a long period of time.

Furthermore, the last time I checked the NPD website they were advertising a salary over 59k for police. Your $57,582.67 number excludes something that is considered taxable earnings. Maybe the HMO or PPO costs that come out of the payroll check...not sure!

BizJournal which I posted below states that average household income in Naperville is only $97,077 and not $123,221 but it is number ONE in the nation for towns of over 100k in population.

It also states that the PER CAPITA INCOME IN NAPERVILLE is $44,235 which is the 5th best in the nation. That is not starting pay for a Napervillian but average pay for all ages in Naperville. So it could be what someone 40 years old is making.

Thus if you want to use your method of analysis as justification, let us go ahead and use it. Why is a starting fireman at age 21 entitled to nearly 60k in beginning salary, when the average resident only makes $44,235 mid way in his or her career. Yes, I understand firemen spent 2 years and some of their own money to become paramedics. But most residents in Naperville spend 4-8 years in college and lots of their money to be able to get the decent jobs they have.

You think it is fair for a 21 year old "Man" in the fire department with no experience to make what the average resident makes in town which is $44,235 and may come many years later in his or her career. And most taxpaying residents will never see a penny in pension money in their lives despite having lower pay than the public sector. Let us not forget that these pensions were started when public employees got paid less than the private sector. But the world turned and these pensions did not revolve with the world.

So I think your "flawed analysis" was flawed anyway!

But truthfully, a fireman's salary should not be based on what other Napervillians make. It should be based on what other firemen make in other parts of the state and country. It should be based on market conditions! It should be based on supply and demand! Not the establishment residents taking care of their boys and girls...excuse me their MEN and WOMEN! MEN and WOMEN don't need connections to get their jobs. Boys and Girls do need connections to get lucrative jobs sometimes!

It seems apparent you have to be very well connected to land a job in the NPD or NFD. Every fire fighter and police officer in the state if not the nation, would love to work for the City of Naperville because they offer the highest salary in the state if not the nation, while probably encountering the least risk to their lives!

Many of Naperville's residents are cream of the crop employees who earned their way here after many years of working hard and living in less affluent communities. They would have loved to live here when they were 21 but could not afford to. It seems like you feel that FIREMEN needs to make money commensurate with the community instead of their talents, experience, and market conditions. It does not work that way! Sorry!

Let us continue the debate since you kindly reopened the case after shutting it down.

May I ask are you a Fireman's Friend or a Fireman since you seem to be very determined in defending these ridiculous and unaffordable pensions. Are the firemen in this town not allowed to speak up on Ted's Threads?

Why are you more concerned about the firemen than your personal real estate taxes which are skyrocketing because of these pension costs with no end in sight? Please explain and elaborate so we can continue to have an honest and open discussion! What is your true vested interst here, Fireman's Friend???

I am interested in this situation because I have a vested interest....my rising taxes! What is your honest angle here since all Firemen can read, speak and write and should be defending themselves and not depending on a friend to defend them.

Once again, I ask you, if you are a FIREMAN as opposed to a Fireman's Friend??? If you are, what you are saying would make sense at least from your perspective of being a fireman and captilizing on this OUTRAGEOUSNESS and INSANITY!

Blogger TB was defending firemen at any cost...even at the cost to his own taxes. He said that the City of Naperville should look to cut expenses everywhere but where it concerned safety. At some point he came clean and admitted his brother was a fireman! How about you coming clean with FULL DISCLOSURE since you seem to be willing to throw your tax money to the firemen....needlessly! That does seem a bit unusual!

BELOW IS THE LATEST STATS ON NAPERVILLE FROM BIZJOURNAL.

____________________________________________________________________

Naperville, Ill.

Photo: Illinois Bureau of Tourism Quick facts
Population: 139,155
Wealth index: 13.70 points
Note: Positive score indicates local wealth is higher than normal; negative score, lower than normal.
Wealth profile
(Ranks in parentheses)
Per capita income: $44,235 (5th of 261)
Median household income: $97,077 (1st of 261)
Incomes of $200,000 or more: 15.0% (1st of 261)
Upper 20% threshold for income: $174,867 (1st of 261)

Note: Study group includes 261 communities with populations above 100,000. See methodology for details about each wealth factor and the rating formula.

Host Ted,

Unfortunately there appears to be a "minutes and agenda archive" at City Council, but no "Packets archive". I'm guessing that the Sun downloads all of these as they become available and before they disappear.

Setting aside issues like location and need, in the case of the 204 High School, the question has to be asked:

* Does the cost of wages drive the costs for the Public Works projects and which contractors and subs do the various government bodies use?

* Why are public works wages rising in a deflating market with hundreds of thousands of construction workers being laid off?

* How much of a premium do the taxpayers pay for their buildings, roads and bridges to support this system?

* How much of the money filters back to political parties and campaigns from the Unions and Contractors?

While I don't have the time or resources to chase the answer, I suspect that when one considers public vs. private the current system incurs a huge premium in real dollar terms and is a self-feeding-closed-loop system. The more politicians put into the system, the more the unions and contractors put into the politicians.

Any chance you can make available and post on this thread the prevailing wages portion of the 7-15-08 packet the Fireman's Friend was kind enough to point out to us?

If for some reason the City can't afford $170 for a Terabyte hard-disk-drive that has the capacity to archive all of the packets, agendas and minutes for all eternity; can the Sun spring for one and either donate it or keep the records on your server?

Thanks,

Bubo

Fireman's Friend
"Bubo asked “what is the hourly rate the contractors are being paid?”
Agenda Packet item I14 City Council Meeting 07/15/08 is the “Ordinance Ascertaining Prevailing Wages in the City of Naperville”. “This is adopted pursuant to the Prevailing Wage Act 820 ILCS 130/1 et seq. (2002). The Illinois Department of Labor has determined the prevailing wages for positions on public work projects.” The list contains a breakdown by trade in both Illinois and DuPage County."

Trying to Understand,
Thank you for the complement. However, I am not very well versed but trying to gain knowledge and understanding as we go along.

As far as Police and Firemen Pensions about 9.5% of their wages are put into this fund. The city in recent years has provided roughly a little over 20% of their wages as matching funds. The exact number for the Fireman from memory and provided by Councilman Bob is 21.16%.

Despite these massive contributions by the city of Naperville, the P and F Pension fund has a 53 million dollar deficit. The City of Naperville would like to blame the state for all the problems. The truth is that the State does not dicatate to the City what the starting salary of a policeman or fireman should be. That is something that is negotiated between the city council and the police and fire unions.

The city council appears to be spineless in its negotiations with the P and F Unions. That is why we are paying a starting salary of a few bucks short of 60k for 21 and 22 year old kids right out of college for these positions. Not only is there starting salary better than 95% of other college graduates but they are receiving a pensions of 75% for the rest of their lives when they retire after 30 years of service. Other college graduates in the private world are receiving NO PENSIONS! PERIOD!!!

The city of Naperville is roughly starting these careers at 60k and ending them at 120k with the traditional raises and promotions. Thus we have to pay 90k or 75% for each one of these firemen and police officers when they retire.

Many police in surrounding towns and even big cities like St. Louis and New York retire with salaries less than Naperville's starting salary.

Thus the pension costs realted to the extra 60k we pay to senior officers and firemen is the city council's fault and not the state's fault. This enormous extra salary of 60k brings with it an extra 45k in pension costs per police officer and fireman. That is partially the reason why we are in a $53 million deficit situation!

Other reasons is who ever is investing this money collected from the employees and the city to the tune of 20%, is not investing it properly and getting a decent return. Thus putting these pension funds further in the hole.

The sad thing in the matter is that whenever who is responsible makes bad investments, it does not effect the police or firemen. It affects the TAXPAYERS!!! We have to come up with their shortfalls. If they had planned to make 8.5% on their money and they make 0, we have to come up with this 8.5% shortfall in addition to the matching funds of 20% that we already come up with.

If they make a negative 8.5%, we have to come up with 17% to bring them back to where they are suppose to be.

But even if they make their 8.5%, it is apparent that 75% pension on 120k final salaries is not sustainable. We only have a few dozen retired police officers and firemen and we can not afford them with over 400 of them currently working and contributing.

Pretty soon we will have 400 working and 400 retired as growth in this town has become negligble. How are 400 guys paying 9.5% of their salaries going to sustain 400 other guys collecting 75% of their final salary?

Only one way....for the taxpayers to chip in the difference between 75% and 9.5% minus any investment returns which to the best of my knowledge have been near 0 the last 10 years.

I hope this is a summary that is understandable, "Trying to Understand." I am no expert but believe to have a lot of common sense that is lacking with our city council and city officials.

I hope I can pass my common sense on to the taxpayer and voters and we can do something about this fiscal fiasco.

To the best of my knowledge the state began offering plans where a city can turn this mess over to the police and firemen and be limited to 10% matching contributions. If this blog site contains accurate information, neighboring Aurora has adopted one of these new self-managed plans and is limited to 10% matching funds which I think is reasonable. That way the police and fireman can do what they want.

Of course they would soon realize that if they want 75% pensions, they would have to contribute 50% of their pay or more for it to be sustainable. My feeling is they would refuse to contribute 50% of their wages to the union for retirement and agree to a more reasonable pensions in line with Social Security or in general what private citizens earn in retirement.

Of course they can help themselves immensely if they agree to extend the retirement age beyond 51 especially if they are healthy and can run marathons such as City Manager Pro Tem Bob Marshall and my acquaintence who retired from the Lisle Fire Department and can also run marathons and looks great since he weight lifts every day! He was given a promotion in his final month to jack up his retirement pension. He started at age 18 and retired at age 48. No college degree was required at the time by Lisle. He owns 4 real estate properties, is a millionaire, and is laughing all the way to the bank when he collects his 90k pension per year....at TAXPAYER EXPENSE! I do not know if Naperville gives end of career promotions like the schools and Lisle Municipality, but I am hoping they don't. Maybe CM Bob who has been very helpful can shed some light. He seems to be the only one willing to get us answers. I recommed that he be re-elected due to his willingness to be transparent and honest with the taxpayers. I do not know what his political views are! I don't care...I love his TRANSPARENCY and DISCLOSURE!

The city of Naperville could also help by not allowing double dipping. They could tell City Manager Pro-Tem Bob Marshall we are wlling to make you manager(assuming he is qualified) but only if you forfeit your pension until you truly retire. They could or should have made that a condition of employment. If he truly wants to be city manager he should be satisfied with the 175k we are giving him and not milk us for a "retirement pension" of an additional 85K while gainfully employed by the same taxpayers who pay his pension!

On the other hand if City Manager Pro Tem Robert Marshall has any concern for taxpapers or government waste, he would forfeit his pension without even being asked. He could be saving this pension money for the police and firemen who truly need to retire early because they are less healthy or had an injury during their careers preventing them from working till age 65.

Ray McGury, a former Naperville Police Officer, just jumped in the same frying pan as Bob Marshall and is also double dipping as the new Executive Director of the Park District!

One wonders how these things are allowed to happen in this town. It is called an ESTABLISHMENT protecting its OWN. The Napergate Man exposed it in his famous or infamous series of 44 Napergate full page ads in the Naperville Sun. Unfortunately, half the people in this town are newcomers who missed this great series.

The education was at one point continuing by the numerous followers of the Napergate Man on this blog site. But unfortunately, it appears that this blog site does not have the viewership of the Naperville Sun and especially the old Naperville Sun in the Napergate Days that had huge penetration and almost read by everyone in town. At one point something like 22,000 newspapers for a population of 75k. The Napergatge Man had very deep reach, thanks to the Old Naperville Sun and of course the very deep grass movement that he created over a decade!

Now we have 143k in population and only a circulation of 16,200 for the Sun. So the penetration is less than half as deep which makes it difficult to mobilize the population in this SLEEPY TOWN.

But the residents can only sleep a little longer. In a few years when they see a doubling of their taxes, they will wake up and OVERTRHOW the establishment in an upcoming election.

It happened in Alaska by a hockey mom. Now she is giving the taxpayers rebates every year after ousting the corrupt and wasteful establishment.

As I said in an earlier blog, I am looking forward to a soccer mom stepping forward in Naperville to overthrow the entrenched and corrupt establishment, and sending us each a rebate check.

If no one steps forward when I retire from my corporate job in Chicago, I will step forward and finish the job the Napergatge Man started. It needs to be finished! Simple!

I hope I answered your question, "Trying to Understand."

Another Anonymous and Readers:

I made my post in order to get some basic facts out regarding the realities that fire fighters face and also discuss some factors relating to the building cost. It pains me to see the invaluable contributions made by public servants such as firefighters either ridiculed or minimized. Naperville’s Fire fighters are intensely proud of the service they provide to this community. I am too.

AA, I appreciated your positive words in the beginning of your post. I am interested in having a positive, constructive conversation based on as many facts as possible.

I was sorry to see that you seemed to change moods in your post as, by the end you were somewhat offensive in your comments. Perhaps I shouldn’t have made the “case closed comment” I apologize if it antagonized you. Please let’s have a civil conversation.

AA asked “What are your feelings about starting salaries of nearly 60k for 21 year old boys….”

These are not “boys”; these are men and women who have taken the time (2 years) to attend college level classes to become Illinois licensed paramedics on their own time and dollars. Being a paramedic is required to apply to the Naperville fire department.

According to Money Magazine; the median family income in Naperville is $123,221.00 (City Stats per year)

Starting salary for a FF/PM in Naperville is $ 57,582.67
With the following deductions:
Family Insurance 114.20 (HMO) per month 142.62 (PP0) per month
Family Dental Insurance 9.91 per month
Federal Withholding
Illinois State Tax
Medicare
(And other misc. personal deductions i.e. voluntary life insurance, etc.)
NOTE: FF/PM do NOT pay Social Security

The FF/PM do NOT pay into Social Security; I do support their pension program. As the result of research I would like to provide the following points. I am NOT an expert on pensions, 401k’s, social security, etc., but will offer the following facts:

The expansion of pension fund investment opportunities would accomplish investments that may realize greater financial returns. The more investment income generated for the pension funds, the less of a burden there would be on taxpayers.

Firefighters support legislation that would require municipal governments to utilize a standardized actuarial method to establish the local governments' share of the pension contribution.

Currently, local governments have the power to hire independent actuaries to determine the municipality's contribution to public safety employee pension funds. As a result many local governments have the same approach to funding public employee pensions as the federal government's approach to funding Social Security.

Local governments have been deferring pension contributions in the hope that new funding will someday allow them to play catch-up. (It is my understanding, that Naperville is not behind in their contributions, they are 100% funded into these pensions.)

It appears that the Illinois Municipal Retirement Fund does not have the same funding shortfalls as the police and firefighter funds due to municipal budgets relying on a single actuary statewide. This determines the local government share of IMRF employee contributions.

“Firefighters union backs pension system reform” letter to the Editor (Naperville Sun) that was recently published contributed to the information/ verbiage used for this pension post.

Bubo asked “what is the hourly rate the contractors are being paid?”
Agenda Packet item I14 City Council Meeting 07/15/08 is the “Ordinance Ascertaining Prevailing Wages in the City of Naperville”. “This is adopted pursuant to the Prevailing Wage Act 820 ILCS 130/1 et seq. (2002). The Illinois Department of Labor has determined the prevailing wages for positions on public work projects.” The list contains a breakdown by trade in both Illinois and DuPage County.

The way I understand the Station 10 public documents , the cost of this project is “full scope”; that includes items such as gear washer, lockers, desks, etc. – the dollar amount is NOT just the cost of the building.

Anonymous asked, #16 was the land donated on a voluntary basis or was it mandatory as part of granting approval of the overall development?

According to the Agenda Packet for Plan Commission dated 05/07/08 PC Case # 1730 “The Annexation Agreement for the Naperville Crossings provided that Lot 12 was to be conveyed to the city for a fire station. On December 12, 2004, the City Council passed Ordinance 04-221 authorizing acceptance of a deed to the subject property.”

To another anonymous:

It sounds like you are very well versed in the knowledge and workings of the State of Illinois Pension System. Could you please explain to us exactly how the system works and how the funds are acquired and distributed. I'm just trying to understand!

Mason,

Cool it! I relied on the artilce in the Naperville Sun that inspired this thread. It said 2.54 million and I used 2.5 million.
What crime did I committ? Most newspapers vet their stories out before they publish them.

A number that is in the budget could have been adjusted up or down. I do not think a Naperville Sun reporter would fabricate that number of 2.54 million. I am sure a city official gave it to him. Many times one city official says one thing while another city official says another.

There was an example of this earlier this year where one City Official blasted the Sun for writing something that came right out of the mouth of another city offical. So cool it! Let us not blame the Naperville Sun for trying. Host Ted has shown a lot of bravery taking on these pension issues considering his brother in law is a former lieutenant in the NPD and is currently receiving a pension. My hat goes off to Host Ted for being as objective as possible despite a family connection to the NPD! Kudus to Host Ted!

And really Mason you are being ridiculous! Since the Naperville Sun made a mistake and failed to note the fire engine was NOT included in the price, it even makes my point stronger in my initial letter. And we did not count the cost of the land in our price! What more do you want for tilting the information to favor the Fire Dept.

If everything was priced in we could be talking about a 4 million dollar firehouse. I agree with Anonymous that 250 per s.f. is an outrageous price. Much commercial can be built with 100 dollars a square foot. Construction labor is cheaper now because they are dying to work for any price. That 3 dollars price increase you mention is hogwash! No one is forced to use the UNION to perform constuction. If the City of Naperville is using UNION employees to build firehouses we have to ask why. Are the police not willing to protect non-union employees who are willing to work for half the price of union employees? That may be the issue here!

Since we may need this firehouse and 12 more firemen, this is a very good time for the Pro Tem Fire Chief to review starting salaries and pensions promised to new employees. Maybe they have become out of line with other suburbs.

We are living with a 53 million pension deficit just for police and firemen. Do you want our children to be faced with a 153 million pension deficit in 20 years when they start paying taxes?

What is with you people who support higher taxes at any cost? All we are trying to do is get city costs under control. We live in a rich city and obviously our council member have gotten very lazy and decided to pass costs to taxpayers rather than controlling and reducing costs!

I think it is shameful when you live in the richest large city in America and you have budget shortfalls. Alaska is a very rich state and watches costs as Governor Sarah Palin has informed us. They sent each taxpayer there a rebate check for 1200 dollars. They have a 5 billion dollar surplus. They are not trying to waste it. They are saving it for the rainy days when oil one day may be depleted in that state!

Naperville also should be sending every resident a rebate check due to our massive wealth in this town instead of being in the deficit year after year.

Nothing has changed in 20 years. The Napergate Man went after runaway city expenses for a decade and nothing was accomplished except temporarily when his ads were exposing waste week after week. No lesson was learned. It simply got worse! It is back to business as usual for our Council Members except for maybe Dick Furstenau!

We did not join the Napergate Man when he was on fire, so now we have to find a way to do it on our own by mobilizing all over again! Election day is not that far away. Ask all your neighbors and friends to visit the election booth and vote for council members who promise to be frugal with our hard earned tax dollars.

Fireman's Friend- Thanks for the informative comments. You have educated many readers about the fire department.

My chief concern about these blogs are the posters who write information that is blatantly incorrect. People have a right to post their opinion's about the topics. However, when they start posting information that is "hearsay" or making up numbers "from memory" they often misinform the readers of these blogs. This then perpetuates the cycle of misinformed readers and posters. Research is easy to do.

Another Anonymous- Thanks for some more "hearsay" and bad information.

To the Readers- The city's budget year starts on May 1st. The money to construct Fire Station 10 is already in this year's budget. The cost is $2,222,507 per the city council minutes (thanks for the research Fireman's Friend). Even though construction does not start until March 2009 the money is already allocated.

I have lived in Naperville for over 20 years. I don't have an old Naperville name or any "pull" in the city. In those 20 years I have contacted city departments about issues ranging from new street lights in my neighborhood, code compliance, construction in my area, and proposed construction. I have always been given accurate information quickly and have been treated well by the employees I have dealt with. Never have I found city employees to be "secretive". Apparently people who don't have time for Freedom of Information Requests (or a phone call) find it easier to "create" the information they find fits their agenda and post it here as "fact".

When a poster tells you where they got those "facts and figures" and you can check it yourself, you know you are receiving accurate information. However when a poster tells you he talked to someone from "another town" or writes "I believe we only have 5 major fires in town each year" from what they "read in the paper" I would research the information myself before I believed someone talking off the cuff.

Ted Slowik- Since the topic of pensions was broached here I heard a rumor. Was the author of the two stories in the Sun about city pensions terminated because he didn't correctly research his information? I'm asking for clarification because I don't want to perpetuate a story without accurate research. Thanks.

Fireman's Friend,

#14 given that we are all taxpayers and this is still a free democracy gives us all the right to speak or write about any thing we darn well please, including the "personal aspects of living in a fire house". Let's not forget that these are tax supported civil servants and while they are in our fire house they are on duty and we have every right to scrutinize any aspect of which our tax dollars are supporting. As a tax payer and a parent and a school group volunteer it was a real eye opener to me when we tried to schedule a visit with a bunch of kids to our local fire station. We were trying to find a time that would work with working parent's schedules. We were told in no uncertain terms that such visits had to be scheduled before 4PM because after 4PM was "personal time" for the firemen. We never did get a good explanation of exactly how "personal time" fit in exactly with being "on duty". Since then I've become much more aware of how badly both the Naperville Fire and Naperville Police abuse time when they are supposed to be "on duty". There are many other examples and what is really alarming is that you don't even have to look very far or deep to spot it, it is that bold and brazen. This alone would make a good investigative reporting piece for the Naperville Sun or the Sun Times.

#16 was the land donated on a voluntary basis or was it mandatory as part of granting approval of the overall development?

#17 hospitals are the most expensive commercial building to construct with a cost per square foot of approximately $260 per square foot. Residential construction runs about $120 per square foot. Business construction runs about $160 per square foot. Utility buildings, which include garages cost less than $70 per square foot. A fire station is a combination of utility/garage, sleeping quarters/residential, and some business spaces. The most expensive cost among these 3 uses is business at $160 per square foot and this is, by far, the smallest space allocation in the building. $250 per square foot is not a bargain, not even close. Hands down, taxpayers paid top dollar for this fire station.

Fireman

Can you elaborate on this one, isn't construction suffering along with the housing market implosion?

What is the hourly rate the contractors are being paid?

Is this the invisible hand of government at work?

Thanks,

Bubo

4.

"Most construction trades, if not all, will be receiving on average a $3.00 per hour raise June 2009. According to, I believe, the Wall Street Journal, construction costs are expected to increase 20-25% in the year 2009."

Fireman's Friend,

Your points are very informative and will be taken under advisement.

It will not close the case but make the debate much more meaningful and honest.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge. I do say what I say to get people like you to come out and share some knowledge since the city of Naperville is very secretive...unless you hit them with FOIA REQUESTS, and I don't have time for that. I have a full time job working for a Fortune 500 company 50 hours a week so like most people I have limited time but do care about my REAL ESTATE TAXES!

What are your feelings about starting salaries of nearly 60k for 21 year old boys followed by retirement pensions of 75% after 30 years? Do you think their jobs is so hard that they should be able to retire in their prime at 51 while we support them for another 40 years while they are capable of workng at least another 15 years.

Do you see any inequality between the private citizens and public servants in the pension area especially? We are also separated from our familes when we go to work in Chicago sometimes for 60 hours a week and more if you count transportation time. Yes, Firemen work long shifts but they also have many days off to compensate for those longs shifts and can be with their families as much as any other citizen in Naperville. I don't buy that point of yours! If you want to feel sorry for a public servant, feel sorry for the Marine who goes overseas for a year without seeing his family while truly in harm's way. Bringing up points like that just shows your bias for FIREMEN! Let us try to be practical and not biased so we can bring FAIRNESS in this town!

I noticed you ignored the PENSION issue which is my MAIN CONCERN!

The PENSION issue contributes to VERY HIGH TAXES and needs to be addressed by yourself before we close the case on the FIREMEN!

Let us debate and not be cocky enough where you think your word is the final word and the case is closed. Maybe you also think you wrote the BIBLE or US CONSTITUTION. You come on as very arrogant suggesting YOUR POINTS should close the case!

Please let us not be so arrogant and cocky to the point that you think your word is sacred and there should be no further debate. What is the purpose of Host Ted's Blog site if you do not want debate since you think you know EVERYTHING...LOL!!!!!

After reading the posted blogs, and after review of the Fire Department’s web site I would like to add the following comments:

1. As any reporter knows, one must check facts. I am sure that no reputable journalist would use their own past stories for facts; I would bet the information would come from the source. (The FD not the newspaper)
2. The City Council agenda packet (Item K1 page 4) indicates that the total cost of Station 10 is $2,222,507. The Chief also stated that there may be more opportunities for value engineering as the project progresses.
3. Station 10 was initially discussed and directed to be “fast-tracked” in 2007 at a work-shop with City Council. (Please see the City’s web site for budget information and details.)
4. By select Council Members discussing the possibility of winteratizion cost approval makes sense. This project is scheduled to break-ground in March 2009. Most construction trades, if not all, will be receiving on average a $3.00 per hour raise June 2009. According to, I believe, the Wall Street Journal, construction costs are expected to increase 20-25% in the year 2009. I believe that these Council members showed foresight in moving forward now with a project, spending a bit more upfront with the reasonable anticiatpation of savings at the end of the project. Spending $30-40,000 in winterization cost could save at the end of the project if construction cost exceed this amount by March.
5. To Another Anonymous, per the FD web site 2007 numbers Naperville sees approx. 4 fires per day.
6. The FD web site 2007 activity breakdown also shows a total of 9633 emergency response calls. That would be approx 26 per day.
7. Also the FD is not just responsible for fire calls, but there is also:
Paramedics, dive team, specialty rescue, hazardous material teams
Like most other professions these firefighters, paramedics and team members have mandated continuing education hours that must be obtained yearly. (i.e. training and certification.)
8. Let’s not forget about the fire alarm systems planning/review, the fire inspections that are required throughout the community and the public education that the FD is in charge of.
9. Almost forgot the Emergency Preparedness division. What the FD does to educate and involve our own community members and coordinate with other municipalities and the State/Federal government. (Translation – Homeland Security)
10. Here is what I have learned about a day at the firehouse:
Radio check (department with dispatch), all equipment check (fire and medic), all vehicle check, EMS training/specialty team training/fire training, house duties, reports as required by administration or as a result of emergency calls, inspections, and of course the obvious, emergency calls.
11. Sprinkler and chemical systems are not in place in all facilities in Naperville (or surrounding mutual aid areas). As Mason stated, single family homes (SFH) do not have these systems. Construction of homes has changed drastically over the past two decades. There is construction in place in Naperville (SFH) that has floor construction systems with a fail time of 6 minutes. By the FD’s website, the response time is 6-8 minutes. In some cases, the FD is responding to a fire where the odds of floor failure are already against them. Then we have the textiles of today; again far different that that of two decades ago –new textiles bring new hazards.
12. What about auto accidents? I have not seen this part of the FD’s job brought up. Extrication, fluid cleanup/control, transportation of the patient(s), lane/traffic control….I, personally have witnessed driver’s use the emergency equipment as a way to get through traffic quicker, cut off the engines/ambulances to “not be slowed down” and disregard the personnel directing traffic (Scott’s law).
13. Another Anonymous, I hope that you (and others) find these points educational and realize that these men and women do not eat and sleep 99% of the time.
14. In addition, the comment made about the “inconvenience of living in a fire house”…what an inappropriate comment. These men and women knew when the took the position of firefighter/paramedic that they would be spending 24 hours at a time away from their family – missing birthdays, anniversaries, holidays, recitals, etc. Firefights/paramedics are a unique group – just as policemen, hospice nurses, etc. Since you are NOT a firefighter/paramedic, you should not speak as to the personal aspects of their jobs.
15. As far as privatization, when all is fairly compared between City services (as they are today) and a private contract company my best guess would be the private company would have the same financial statement as the City. The benefit is that the City has control over the hiring requirements, training, education, etc.
16. The land for Station #10 was DONATED by the Developer.
17. FYI...This is a commercial building, and $250 per square foot is a bargain compared to some other commercial developments constructed recently.

Another Anonymous, these points should now close the case.

Yikes,

The cost to build this fire station is over $250 per square foot!

For comparison purposes a 3,200 sq ft home at $250 per square foot would cost a cool $800,000 before adding in the value of the land it is sitting on!

Thanks for vindicating me, Host Ted!

I certainly was not exaggerating.

Apparently, I was underestimating by $788,000 the cost of the firehouse since I excluded the fire engine based on the article.

But it appears I was right on with my cost of $2.5 million. And now we find out the land was not even included in the TRUE COST! Wow!!!

I will continue to rely on the Naperville Sun as it has proved credible and willing to make corrections immediately upon any dispute!

Thanks again, Host Ted!

Ted,

Presumably the city already owns the land on which the station will be built, so $2.5 million is the cost to build the structure. Is that correct?

Thanks.

-JQP

Response from Ted:

That's correct, as I understand it. The item before the council concerned construction costs and made no mention of land acquisition.

As I suspected, we reported incorrect information. The word NOT was missing. I've checked with the city, and the cost of building the fire station does NOT include the cost of purchasing a ladder truck. The initial agenda documents I looked at estimated the cost of the truck at $1.5 million. The city now says the actual cost of the truck is much lower: $788,000. To the best of my understanding, the cost of building the station is estimated at $2.5 million.

Sorry for the incorrect information. The online version of the story has been corrected, and look for a correction in print Sunday.

Host Ted,

Thanks for the insightful comments.

Yes governments can always create a crisis to bully, scare or intimidate the citizens into going along with more government while continuing the incompetence, waste and corruption:

*Making little kids cross busy streets to catch the bus is a good primer for a referendum next year.
*Subsidized parking for gin mills
*Special zoning for insiders
*Prisoner releases to drive up crime etc...The examples are limitless.

One possibility is the continued erosion of confidence in our various governments to deliver good outcomes while minimizing incompetence, waste and corruption. This is I believe why Pres. Bush is getting hammered along with the rest of the government bodies.

Yes, an economic collapse usually is the catalyst for a very rough change of government.

Once confidence is lost in the system of government, the question becomes what do we replace it with?

At some point, the business end of the government (police and military) also looses confidence and joins the quest for a replacement. The Weimar Republic and Soviet Union come to mind along with the former Soviet occupied countries, France 1800's, Spain in the 30's, most of S. America etc..

If there are any polls out there showing the approval rating for governments, I suspect that the numbers are lower than the ratings for Pres. Bush and the Congress.

Our last three Presidents are Yale Men; the next one will probably be a Harvard Man like many other high ranking government officials and Judges. Change?

Like third world countries, our military is probably one of the few remaining institutions the citizens still have confidence in.

In S. America, I believe, the citizens taunt the military officers by tossing chicken feet at them.

Let’s hope we don't arrive at this destination.

I think we might have got it wrong. I believe the cost of the building is budgeted at $2.2 million, NOT including the cost of the fire truck, which is another $1.5 million. I'll check on that.

By Mason on September 4, 2008 1:21 PM
To Another Anonymous,

I suggest you research your topic before writing in this or any other blog. Your response on 9/3/8 did not have one correct piece of information in it! At least you spelled fireman right. Let me pick your comments apart piece by piece.

The cost of the new fire station is $2.2 million (not $2.5) and the money is already allocated in this years budget. If you would have taken the time to check you would have found it.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Mason,
Well, so you want to pick my comments apart piece by piece. Well this is directly from the Naperville Sun of 2 days ago regarding the cost of the new fire station.

"The initial architect's estimate placed the building's cost at $2.96 million; however, after further review the cost for the project was reduced to $2.54 million. Included in this cost is $1 million for the purchase of a new Quint-style ladder truck, which includes the vehicle and related equipment. The vehicle will carry extrication tools as well as a full line of paramedic equipment."

I have indicated I write from memory. I guess I underestimated the cost of the fire house by 40k. However you do "thorough research" and you were off by 340k. So on your first point you lose!

As far as it being in this year's budget, if it was postponed till next year, it would be removed from this year's budget and put in next year's budget. This is Accounting and Finance 101! So on your second point you lose!

I read the Naperville Sun online and only a handful of fires are reported annually. I guess the fire dept. considers a paper burning in a garbage can a fire for record keeping purposes. Technically it is a fire, but you and I know I was talking about major fires that do serious damage. I believe we only have 5 major fires in town each year. I stand by that! So on your third point you lose!

Even if we go with your numbers of 1 fire(including minor fires) every 4.28 days that translates to firemen not putting out fires 99% of the time. Do the math! How many firemen out of the 200 are sent out to put out a tiny brush fire in a back yard...or a lit match in a metal garbage can? So on your fourth point you lose!

Most of the 9600 calls to the fire department are a result of false alarms. The firemen go there and come right back. It is nice to get out of the firehouse once in a while and get some fresh air! So on your fifth point you lose!

While 9600 calls may seem like a lot to you, if you divide it by 365 days and 200 Naperville Firemen it indicates a fireman has about a .13 chance of having to leave the firehouse in a 12 hour shift. Maybe I was wrong and they only spend 97 or 98% of their time in the firehouse. The 99% number was given to me by a retired fireman from Lisle! I had no reason to disbelieve him. Maybe Naperville has a few more brats than Lisle that start fires in garbage cans. On your sixth point I will concede I wrongfully assumed that if Lisle firemen spend 99% of their time in the firehouse, that Naperville firemen probably do the same. It appears they only spend 97 or 98% of the time in the firehouse. My apologies for estimating a per centage too high! I

You are fully aware I was talking generalities and from memories. Anyway, based on the information you provided it seems like I am much closer than you with my estimates.

I think you are slicing and splitting hairs when you hold me accountable for estimating the cost at $2.5 million to build this firehouse after just reading in the Naperville Sun it cost $2.54 million dollars. Personally, I think you are being ridiculous and most of the bloggers will think you are writing with some very loose bearings upstairs. When was the last time you had your bearings examined!

The 2.2 million you refer was what was INITIALLY BUDGETED for the project a while back and had nothing to do with the real or revised cost. I guess when you do research based on 2 year old information, you will get erroneous and outdated information. Your research was simply obsolete before it was even published!

Maybe you ought to order a subscription of the Naperville Sun and read the latest news. At least Host Ted and his staff are in real time and giving us the latest and most accurate news and facts. I would not recommend doing any further flawed research if I were you, Mason!

Case closed!

Moderator Ted,

I like your two cents. Most of it is practical and pragmatic. It is kind of a shame that local governments have such a void of the leadership found in private business that they refuse to prepare and avoid a near-collapse situation and would rather hunker down with business as usual until a situation like what happened in county government arises.

The sad fact is we now pay higher taxes and probably will continue to pay higher taxes. We never had the opportunity to trim the fat and get rid of those who under perform so we will never really know whether these cuts were fat or muscle as some bureaucrats would have had us believe.

Right now the surprising fact in outsourcing is that the federal government is leading the charge. Yes, the huge monstrous machine overseen by an out-of-control Congress is posting double digit growth in outsourcing various federal services each year. This is not a trend we can ignore. It is a trend that more and more people will become aware of as more and more people begin working for these outsourcing companies. It is already beyond the "cottage industry" stage.

Some have argued that police and fire can't be outsourced. Fact of the matter is that both police and fire services have been successfully outsourced in many communities. And there have been many ways that it has been accomplished. For example, some police departments have outsourced all of the clerical and administrative work, the forensic work, and the administration. Then there are other police departments that have completely outsourced the entire operation... the most frequent model being where a municipality simply disbands the entire police force and then signs a contract for the county sheriff to provide services. There are other models as well.

The fact remains that in today's business environment there are professional services currently available that would allow every single City of Naperville employee to be outsourced... from the City Manager to the lowest position in any department. The only thing that keeps these city employees on the payroll is the will of the city council. Yes, some cities have taken extreme action and have outsourced nearly everything to the point where they only have 3 or 4 city employees remaining who manage all of the outsourcing contracts. And there are thousands of possibilities that also exist anywhere in between where we are currently. Until the city council takes the first step we will never know what possibly may be gained by making such a change.

It is easy to get caught up in the trap of assuming what we currently experience for service levels from the various city departments is the very best. It is also easy to get caught up in the trap of assuming that these same services will only deteriorate or get worse if they are outsourced. The truth is that all of these city services have three possible outcomes: they can improve, they can stay the same, they can deteriorate. All things being equal these services only have a 1:3 chance of deteriorating and a 2:3 chance of staying the same or improving. I like 2:3 odds a whole lot better myself.

My two cents: I think the question of privatizing municipal services is worth asking, but we're a ways off from it seriously being considered. If the economy really tanks, and there's some sort of global depression, and insufficient tax revenues to fund local services, then, yes, cutbacks and drastic measures would have to be taken. Maybe then outsourcing of essential services will emerge as a viable cottage industry, with private companies competing for contracts not unlike how AT&T, Comcast and WOW compete for our cable, phone and Internet business. And yes, the level and quality of services would suffer. More likely I think we'll see the current system survive. Look at how Cook County managed to raise taxes rather than cut services, and now it has the highest tax rate in the nation. How long until the law of diminishing returns catches up with that, in terms of businesses forced to close because they lose customers to neighboring counties with lower tax rates? Look at Mayor Daley threatening layoffs and furloughs. Look at DuPage County before the Legislature OK'd the sales tax increase that staved off drastic cuts in health, public safety and other services. The system, however inefficient or, at times, corrupt, will hobble along. I think only a near-collapse in economic conditions would force real change.

To Another Anonymous,

I suggest you research your topic before writing in this or any other blog. Your response on 9/3/8 did not have one correct piece of information in it! At least you spelled fireman right. Let me pick your comments apart piece by piece.

The cost of the new fire station is $2.2 million (not $2.5) and the money is already allocated in this years budget. If you would have taken the time to check you would have found it.

You state "we have a handful of fires each year". Unlike you, I took the time to check the fire department website. The most current stats are 2006. That year they had 83 fires. That averages one every 4.28 days. Hardly "a handful".

You then wrote "Let's wake up and not pay these twelve new firemen 60K per year for sleeping and eating 99% of the time". The same stats also showed that the fire department responded to over 9,600 calls in 2006. Those firemen must have secret teleportation devices to respond to over 9,000 calls in the 1% of the time they work.

You said "All buildings in Naperville built in the last 2 decades have elaborate sprinkler and chemical systems that will put out the fire before the firefighters even arrive for the clean-up!" Most fires are in residences and the majority of buildings constructed in Naperville in the last two decades are single family homes. They don't have the systems you describe. Once again the keyword is research!

I know it might be hard for you to actually research facts because you are too eager to see your own uneducated words in print. However you do a disservice to yourself and the professionals you write about when you try to disguise your opinions as facts.

I would consider the small portion of my current tax bill going to the fire department money well spent if I ever needed to call 911 at 3am because a member of my family is in need of emergency treatment.

I wonder what would happen to the cost of my homeowners policy if our fire protection services were to be privatized and the company decided not to spend money on new fire apparatus or not build a new station when development dicates to maintain a certain level of response time.

What are the factors contributing to the cost of fire suppression and prevention?

*Insurance regulation and rates tables that look at the distance to a fire house.

* Building codes, is Naperville still building medium and high density housing out of wood instead of non-flammable materials to maximize the builders profits?

* Salaries and overhead. Could Naperville field enough volunteer firemen or do people work too far from the home these days? Do both parents work to support the cost of Government at all levels?

For more info on what works in police outsourcing take a look at:

[url]http://www.privatization.org/database/policyissues/police_local.html[/url]

Here is a just a sample of the info contained at this site:

"1. Trends

Public police department budgets nationwide have been growing at about 3 percent a year, but demand for police service is growing much faster. In response, police departments are turning to several alternative service delivery techniques to cut costs and increase service levels.

Intergovernmental Contracting. In Los Angeles County, the Sheriff�s Department has entered into 42 service contracts with local jurisdictions to supply policing services.

Volunteers. Police departments increasingly are turning to volunteers to help expand their community-policing programs. In 1994, 10 percent of police departments used volunteers, and all indications are that the number has been growing steadily since then. Volunteers fit readily into community-policing programs, so as more and more departments turn to community-policing, they also turn to volunteers.

Outsourcing. Some police departments are starting to look at outsourcing administrative, support, and security services that might be provided privately, freeing up public police to concentrate on the central policing function of combating violent crime."

USA Today 9/14/2006

"Some new cities outsource city hall"

By Oren Dorell, USA TODAY

"Newly formed cities are giving the keys to city hall to private companies that say they can run a government better than bureaucrats. Mayors in "contract cities" say they get better services for less money; more flexibility, because private employees can be hired and fired more easily than workers under civil service rules; and lower debt, because they can own fewer buildings and less equipment.

Sandy Springs, a new Atlanta suburb, hired CH2M Hill to staff all of its departments except police and fire for about $30 million a year. The city of almost 100,000 has only four employees besides police officers and firefighters.

"We wanted to get the most efficient possible use of our tax dollars," Mayor Eva Galambos says.

Also using the model:

� Weston, Fla., contracts with the firm Severn Trent for administrative services and with Broward County for public safety. Weston employs only three people.

� Centennial, Colo., has contractors and about 30 employees.

Cities for years have hired firms to handle trash hauling and roadwork. Only recently have some outsourced all of city hall.

Stephen Goldsmith, who privatized some services in Indianapolis when he was mayor in the 1990s, says the contract city model makes sense for a small, new city. "You're not going to see a Philadelphia turn around and do this," he says.

Maybe not, but the financially troubled city of San Diego, population 1.3 million, recently talked with representatives of Sandy Springs about their privatization.

"Some governments take each department and build stovepipes and people turfs," says Rick Hirsekorn, the CH2M Hill program director at Sandy Springs. "As a privately held company, employee-owned, it behooves everyone in the company to help somebody else."

Fred Siegel, author of the book The Prince of the City� about how Mayor Rudy Giuliani battled public-employee union influence in New York � says the privatizing trend is driven by voters who think local governments have stopped being accountable to them.

Kerry Korpi of the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees says giving a company control of city hall is giving away control of the city.

"Contractors aren't subject to the same kind of open-records and open-meetings laws as public employees are," she says. "You end up with a shadow government."

Private security guards are not police officers. If the police department was outsourced the job function of police officer, with full police officer powers, would still be performed. The only difference is that the private firm would be their direct employer instead of the city.

Blank, I'm not sure where you are getting facts that would support an argument that privatization costs more because of corporate profits? Yes, private outsourcing firms do earn a profit as they are not volunteers or doing this for charity or out of the goodness of their hearts. They are very good and successful at what they do because they know how to be effective and efficient. It outsourcing firms were not capable of lowering the overall cost of operation no one would use them.

Ask yourself this... if an outsourcing firm can lower overall costs and still earn a profit then why do any of us tolerate our tax dollars being wasted in the existing system? Personally I would rather see more people moved off of the government payroll and into private employment. I would also rather see a private firm earn a decent profit rather than see our tax dollars just get wasted due to incompetence or inept bureaucrats

Outsourcing can reduce the total cost of government and I am all for it. The sooner the city council, the park district, the library, the school districts, the township, the county, the state, etc. all start taking a hard look at outsourcing the sooner we can all see some real, measurable relief on our tax bills, the sales tax we pay, and all of the many other hidden taxes levied on goods and services.

Blank,
Private security guards do functions throughout the nation. Sometimes if they are off duty police officers they have powers of arrest. If not, they can hold the suspect until the police arrive.

Top notch security guards will work for 15-20 bucks an hour at events like the Rib Fest and Last Fling! They can easily handle 99% of what takes place. No one is saying not to have 3 police officers working! But let us not have 33 police officers working by substituting 30 police for 30 competent security guards...especially since we are paying OVERTIME from hard earned taxpayer money!

A police officer cost us 75 dollars an hour at these events since the work is given to the most senior officers(translate to most highly paid) and to add insult to injury at OVERTIME RATES. And we all know about the pension that roughly translates to 75 cents on every dollar earned late in the career. It is almost like they are making 132 dollars an hour when figuring in future pensions and that does not take into account health and life insurance. Who knows what other benefits they receive! I am sure there are numerous others as I once read the benefit package on the NPD POLICE SITE.

At some point, I am confident the taxpayer will wake up. When, I don't know! Maybe when it finally becomes to painful to pay that real estate tax bill on June 1 and Sept 1. Mine has become very painful and motivated me to write on this blog site.

Thanks for extending me the opportuntiy to extend my thoughts freely, Host Ted! I have thanked you in the past but I don't want you to think I will ever take this privelege for granted. I am just hoping one day we can accomplish CHANGE!

By the way, I am not a Democrat or Republican. I am just anti-Establishment since it is the Naperrville Establishment that is burning my 100 dollar bills faster than I can make them!

Um, Blank, where you been? The U.S. government IS outsourcing a lot of services in Iraq and Afganistan that would have been performed by the military in previous wars.

Privatizing city services would cost more as their top responsibility is corporate profits (ie our healthcare system)

As far as the police are concerned...A private security guard cannot have any arrest powers and would be powerless in the field to deter any crime.

Very ignorant comments on having private security guards patrol the streets. Whats next-get rid of the military and hire a corporation to wage war?

JQP,

I'm not sure that their is any constitutional prohibitions against outsourcing police work. Remember the state bestows police powers upon individuals. As long as they have been vested with police powers they are free to enforce the law. That is one reason why police from other communities can come into other communities to assist with problems during times when "mutual aid" is needed. That is also why private railroads, as one example, can also run police departments. There are lots of other examples.

As to your "Yeah, well, whatever." Go back and read what I wrote again. I said "most likley", is all. I never even came close to alluding to being right about anything. If you happen to agree, great. If you happen to disagree, great. Let's discuss the issue, because it is important enough to leave room for all sides. Maybe just maybe it will cause enough people to care enough to actually do some good!

This city council is not known to worry about 30,000 dollars in increased winter expenses in making its important decisions.

They throw a 100k for police overtime at charities without blinking an eye!

The real reason they wanted to delay this project is to postpone this 2.5 million dollar expense until the upcoming election is behind us. They are so much in the deficit at this point, that another 2.5 million would not look good right before the establishment is trying to get their forces re-elected.

Being a fireman in Naperville is a relatively easy job. We have a handful of fires each year and over 200 firemen. Some firemen have never seen a fire except the one they started to practice on.

Let us wake up and not pay these 12 new firemen 60k a year for sleeping and eating 99% of the time. Let us pay them for the minor inconvenience of living in a firehouse for that one in a hundred chance that they will be woken up to attend to a problem while they are sleeping. Fair compensation should be 30k for these new firemen!

Many towns have volunteer firemen who enjoy the relationships made at the fire house. They think it is a civic duty and are willing to do it for free. So why do we have to pay 60k to a fireman whose life is no longer at risk like it was in the first half of the century. All buildings in Naperville built in the last 2 decades have elaborate sprinkler and chemical systems that will put out the fire before the fire fighters even arrive for the clean-up!

If the city tells us before election we are only $50 million in the hole be sure to add $2.5 million and understand it is really $52.5 million in the hole if it was not for the postponement of this 10th firehouse. With our police and fire pension system $53 million in the deficit, I can only imagine what kind of impact 12 more highly paid firemen will have on the pension system when our children have to subsidize them one day!

By Anonymous,

good thoughts, keep at it.

Anonymous,

Actually, I do know a thing or two outsourcing---I work for an outsourcing company. You are correct that there are many city departments whose functions could be privatized. There probably would be cost-savings in doing this, but I'm skeptical that the service levels would always be equivalent or better; sometimes, perhaps, but not always. The pressure to lower costs often does conflict with quality of service, despite what you say. And I would definitely draw the line at outsourcing functions essential to public safety such as the police and fire departments. I think this would be very unwise and, in the case of the police, anyway, might be unconstitutional.

Finally:

"Anyone who says it shouldn't be done or can't be done most likely has a vested, personal interest in maintaining the status quo."

Wow! So not only are you right, but you are so right that anyone who disagrees with you must have an ulterior motive? Yeah, well, whatever.

Anonymous,
I was writing my own letter showing the silliness and ignorance of Mr. John Q. Public. Unfortunately, the power on my laptop ran out while I was attempting to send.

In the interest of saving time and space, I will simply agree with your thoughts and disagree with those of John Q. Public!

I know Mr. John Q. Public is an intelligent person but he needs to ponder and collect his thoughts before he writes....otherwise he does not make sense as in this particular incident!

JQP,

Don't be ridiculous. Obviously you have never written a contract nor been responsible for managing the terms and performance of a contract.

Contract terms would address minimum staffing levels and any other term that you would use to try to spread fear that outsourcing or privatizing wouldn't work. If a vendor didn't meet contract terms they would simply default on the contract and the contract could be voided and passed to another competitor. And in extreme cases when that should become necessary the contract would also specify the terms of an orderly transition and turn-over between firms. But let's not forget that the firms who are in this kind of business are true professionals. They know how to manage their contracts, their employees, and their relationships with their clients. They have no interest or desire to let relationships deteriorate to the point where they might loose a contract or a client. Rather they have more interest in using such relationships to grow their business and attract new clients. JQP, you really do have a lot to learn about the outsourcing business.

What you also don't realize or understand is that there are lots of private companies out there that can do the same and better for less and still make enough profit to satisfy their shareholders. The reason it isn't being done this way right now has absolutely nothing to do with essential services or public safety and has everything to do with greed, arrogance, power, and corruption.

There isn't one single department in city hall that can not be either outsourced or privatized. In the end, for every single department that is outsourced, we will end up with equal or better services at a lower cost. This fact has been proven time and time again in corporation both for profit and non-profit as well as in local, state, and federal government.

Many different models of privatizing and outsourcing exist. Some organizations limit it to those departments that it perceives do not add value to the organization, but are still necessary operations. Typical examples would include janitorial services, food services, maintenance, accounting, and human resources. However, there are indeed extreme examples where some organizations have outsourced every single department up to and including the executive management. I can think of some hospitals that are organized like this where the board of directors holds management contracts with other firms for every single hospital position and every single hospital department. And they are able to achieve this without any negative impact upon patient care or quality outcomes.

There are a lot of corporations that looked at outsourcing a variety of departments and then didn't. It wasn't that they had any particular liking for these departments, they were just fair and realistic with the employees and department heads. Management sat down with the department heads and spelled it out for them. They had a choice. They could either operate their department in such a manner that it was as efficient and as cost effective as an outsourced department and retain their corporate employment or they would give the contract to one of the firms that were interested. Every year when the department head submits the budget for coming year they have to keep in mind what a competitive bid from an outsourcing firm would be and keep their costs in line. The same is true with actual performance on the current year budget. If the manager can't be effective and accountable then the operation will be turned over to another firm. There is no logical reason to support an inefficient or ineffective operation when there is sufficient competition out there who will do a better job.

Yes outsourcing and privitization can be done and it can be done with fantastic results.

Anyone who says it shouldn't be done or can't be done doesn't understand the current economic climate and the capabilities within the private sector to provide and offer quality services within a competitive environment.

Anyone who says it shouldn't be done or can't be done most likely has a vested, personal interest in maintaining the status quo.

Government whether it be city, township, county, state, or any one of the many other local branches like schools, libraries, and parks simply must learn to manage all of their resources and to demand that all of the existing managers maintain operations as effective and as efficient as outsourced services or risk seeing their scope of responsibility phased out and passed to the private sector. If government managers can not or will not manage as efficiently and as effectively as managers in the private sector then it is time to replace them. We as taxpayers are paying our taxes for necessary government services and from what I have seen lately on the services provided I do have to question the premium value our tax dollars are buying vs what we are actually receiving.

Sure, this would work---until the company started laying off police officers and firefighters, and closing police and fire stations in order to meet shareholders' demands for higher profits.

Privatize! Privatize! Privatize!

The founders of our constitution only envisioned civil servants to be part time, occasional workers. The founders of our constitution never envisioned legions of full time career government workers.

There is literally no function of local government that can not be privatized, outsourced, or otherwise utilize the capitalist free market, competitive systems in our economy.

The three reasons why we have not seen change is directly related to three primary motivations among politicians: Power, Greed, and Corruption.

Anyone who is truly in favor of better government, less government, more efficient government, lower taxes, increased productivity, etc. etc. would support political and government reform.

Anyone who would not support political and government reform opposes these changes because they have some vested interest in maintaining the status quo.

Illinois has a world wide reputation of being one of the most corrupt states in our union. Yet voters continue, year after year, to tolerate the corruption and abuse of power. Voters continue to elect officials that are known to be corrupt.

When are Illinois residents going to stand tall and start to take pride in our state, our cities, and our communities and once and for all time say enough is enough? We simply must unite and demand political and government reform and we must remain committed to this cause. Progress in this cause will take time and at times it may come slowly. It takes time to build a momentum.

The voters of Illinois will have a first shot at this come next election by voting on a referendum to recall statewide elected officials. If everyone gets out and votes and supports this referendum and passes it by a 90% or greater margin it will send a strong and compelling message that the days of corruption in Illinois are over for good. Let's all unite together and take that first step!

I hope the City of Naperville did not pay a lot for the architectural services for this fire station, because that is one uninspired design.