It's easy, in a county where 100 percent of the elected officials are Republican, to believe there must be some sort of bias and favoritism exhibited by the ruling party officials.
That's what local Democrats claimed this week, when they said, among other things, that the DuPage Election Commission has Republican cronies on the payroll and favored Republicans in recent ballot disputes.
The commission answered the charges, saying the ballot disputes were resolved fairly and that it also has a Democratic crony on the payroll. You can read more in Friday's Sun.
What's your impression of the election process in DuPage? Do you think it's on the up-and-up? Do you trust that elections are being conducted in a legal and fair manner? Or do you believe that illegal and unethical practices are being allowed to happen?
I am tired of hearing the aggressive whining of the far left in this campaign season!
The far left's attacks on the Republican party are just partisan debris to make us all take our eye off of the illegalities the far left has been engaging in for decades (and which they are being caught on today!)
As was in the Sun's very pages not so long ago, an overwhelming majority of proven voting fraud over the last half century has occurred to the benefit of the Democrat party.
The main tool of the frauds by the left has been the use, misuse, misappropriation, disappearance, and reappearance of paper ballots.
As we are all now well aware, paper ballots are the tool-of-fraud with which the Deocrats have the most expertise both in voter registration AND actual voting.
They have been so aggressive in this election that even they got ahead of themselves and forgot to perform some simple auditing of their grossly illegal, corrupt, and unethical actions.
In short, they went completely fraudulent and thus was born ACORN, Sen. Obama's personal little steam engine of corrupt voting!
Keep it up, DuPage Dems. Like Dianne McGuire and her vile campaign methods, you just keep giving back any advancements you made over the past 3 election cycles!
What in the world are the dems thinking? DuPage is a Republican county and will always be a Republican county. We have as much need for dems here as we have for the ACLU or gun control. Things run just fine in DuPage County with all Republicans running everything. We don’t need any dems coming around and mucking things up.
http://img239.imageshack.us/my.php?image=teachersunion1jy1.jpg
Democrats complaining about republican control of DuPage County! Priceless!!!!! Why don't they just return to Cook County. They run it SO WELL!!!!
Check out what the union is trying to do to Darlene Senger now.
If there was actual voter fraud in Du Page County, I'm sure the democrats would document it and file formal complaints with the State's Attorney's office. The fact that none have been filed and no criminal charges have been filed speaks to the assumption that there is a higher level of law and order in Du Page County as opposed to many other counties in Illinois or elsewhere. Of course that erodes as more and more politically corrupt Democratic oriented people move here. I would suppose real voter fraud exists elsewhere and it exists in the name of ACORN for example, or the Daley and Stoger machines. The problem is ACORN has been a shady outfit for years and functions primarily in corrupt Democratic oligarcies. It is laughable that now suddenly, their greed and corruption has overtaken them to the point that one man registering 73 times in Ohio has drawn the attention of a few elements of the media. Most elements of course ignore the story. ACORN is the real enemy of social justice. A racketeer influenced corrupt organization if you will but because of the corruption a politicans (mostly Democrat)tacit approval, allowed to flourish. It even feeds at the public, taxpayers money trough with approval. It has sucked in members of unions to its ranks, nut bag groups such as the Communist Workers Party of Illinois to name just one fringe group tied in with ACORN. It is indeed the Obama political patronage machine. It is critically liked in the failure of the GSE's Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. The question is why has the U.S. Department of Justice not looked into ACORN operations and allowed it immunity from prosecution under RICO statutes?
In case Fred hadn't noticed, DuPage County turned Democratic in this year's primary - some 23,000 more Democratic votes were cast than Republican. So, I guess it won't always be Republican. Maybe, just maybe we'll soon have a robust two-party system, with real checks and balances, so that the County Board and the Election Commission will be forced to become transparent and actually tell the voters how things are done. And maybe we'll have random hand counts of 5% of the precincts after each election as a safety check to ensure accurate counting. And maybe we'll get a tamper-proof voting system which we can all trust. We have nothing to fear from a two-party system and everything to gain.
Although no longer a resident of DuPage County, born and raised there. As a senior in the 70s, I remember very very well, the Republican bias of Du Page County. It is not a 2 party system in this country and highly biased and quite dishonest throughout many many years. This is not good for democracy in general, nor for that county. Why don't the good citizens of this county make it a POINT to be sure there is honesty in elections and MAKE SURE there is no hanky-panky with votes and be proud of their elections? Now everyone in the country will ALWAYS think when Republicans win everything ALL THE TIME, that they are false, lying, committing fraud and do no truly reflect the people's choice. What a shame in America that this county plays these cruel dishonest games. This is the biggest danger to our constitutional rights.
Yes, we know that neither political party has the corner on honesty. After all, Bush lied and people died (in Iraq of course). Clinton lied and Ken Starr spent our tax money on a 75 million dollar book about oral sex in the Oval Office.
We all have our reputations to live up to! Democrats usually get into trouble because they have a hard time keeping their pants on (not entirely true though - Republicans get into trouble with their pants down in the men's room playing footsie or texting the Pages back in D.C.). Republicans like "I am not a crook" Nixon try to steal elections the old fashioned way by dressing up as plumbers . . .
I suppose we should pay no attention to the 2000 election with the hanging chads due to being printed on inferior card stock off center in Republican run Florida. We probably should ignore the manipulation of the vote in 2004's Ohio where the Republican Secretary of State Blackwell promised to "deliver" the state for Bush and Cuyahoga County's Election Commission staff have been jailed for cherry-picking the ballots for the recount.
The issues in the manipulated 2004 election in Ohio are well documented in a 2005 Congressional House Judiciary Committee Report that "found numerous, serious election irregularities in the Ohio presidential election, which resulted in a significant disenfranchisement of voters . . . [and] affected hundreds of thousand of votes".
All Republicans are honest and we shouldn't worry about them tampering with elections. Yeah right, and I've got a bridge to nowhere to sell on E-Bay . . . I'll even throw in some lipstick!
Did I mention that the U.S. Government Accountability Office's report issued over three years ago stated "Numerous recent studies and reports have highlighted problems with the security and reliability of electronic voting systems"? - the SAME SYSTEMS being used in Early Voting, right now, and to be used on Nov. 4th!
Let's put some lipstick on those warm fuzzies!
There is no reason to feel secure in the integrity of our vote in DuPage County under entrenched Republican rule.
The majority of the funds paid to Atty. Pat Bond have filtered through to the campaigns of his Republican cronies.
The Republican Congress and President Bush created huge tax credits for big oil and the industry's record profits are largely being funneled into lobbyists and Republican campaigns. Funny thing how McCain switched up and started chanting "Drill baby drill!" shortly after a huge infusion of cash into his campaign from the oil lobby!
The Fox News watching ditto-heads don't want to talk about the vote caging the Republicans are engaging in as they disenfranchise voters who lost their homes to foreclosure. They just want to ignore the fact that ACORN was the one to report the irregularities in the voter registration cards to the Election Commissions in assorted jurisdictions. This was no "discovery" and nothing was hidden. Prior to submission, NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT to destroy completed voter registration cards.
So who's dishonest when it comes to elections?
The DuPage Democrats aren't the only party who take issue with the Republican bias of the Election Commission. Members of the Independent Party, the Green Party, the Libertarian Party and the Progressive Democratic Party have expressed their strong concerns, as well.
Executive Director Robert T. Saar has described the Election Commission as "uniquely bi-partisan." Unique, indeed, as practically every decision is slanted. Ideally, an election board should be non-partisan, not bi-partisan.
By the way, there are a number of Republicans who take issue with the Election Commission's use of Pat Bond and Dan Curry, although I doubt if the DuPage Republican Party will be voicing their outrage.
Jean Kaczmarek, co-chair
Illinois Ballot Integrity Project, DuPage Chapter
"If there was actual voter fraud in Du Page County, I'm sure the democrats would document it and file formal complaints with the State's Attorney's office. The fact that none have been filed and no criminal charges have been filed speaks to the assumption that there is a higher level of law and order in Du Page County as opposed to many other counties in Illinois or elsewhere."
glock 22,
It's difficult for me to address anyone who isn't brave enough to use their real identity. I can't take your comments seriously if you're not willing to stand by them.
Pat Bond, the attorney for the DuPage County Election Commission, has contributed $17,500 to DuPage State's Attorney Joe Birkett. Dan Curry, the voice of the Election Commission, is currently serving as Joe Birkett's spokesperson in his hope for a state-wide office. Curry has also served as Birkett's campaign manager in a previous campaign and was paid by him for his promotional work on the Republican-led tax increase referendum, "Stay Safe DuPage," earlier this year.
We have repeatedly tried to meet with with Birkett regarding alleged, but well-documented, wrongdoings of the Election Commission, but he refuses to do so. Our last attempt was regarding Illinois Attorney General Lisa Madigan's opinion that the DuPage County Election Commission must comply with the Illinois Local Records Act for the legal destruction of public records. Although the Illinois Local Records Commission in Springfield had alerted Birkett that the Election Commission appeared to be violating the law, he did absolutely nothing. Another 139 96-gallon toters of material were destroyed by Accurate Document Destruction after this notification. No certificate of disposal had been filed.
A state's attorney may choose the cases he or she wishes, regardless of the merit of complaints filed. Birkett believed that it was far more important to criminalize two citizens voicing their freedom of speech on a bridge than to criminalize the destruction of public records at the Election Commission.
A higher level of law in DuPage County? Hardly.
glock 22, were you aware that no formal complaint had been filed against widely-reported Democratic fraud in the 1960 election to the state board of elections? Despite all the noise which has echoed for half a century, not one piece of evidence was ever presented to the board. The board certified the election results on schedule. This board was practically all Republican, too, including the Republican governor, the Republican AG, and the Republican SOS. Using your rationale, no fraud took place in Cook County in 1960.
If you wish to carry on this discussion, please identify yourself.
Thank you,
Jean Kaczmarek, co-chair
Illinois Ballot Integrity Project, DuPage Chapter
Anonymous # 1,
Your stylings seem so familiar...je ne sais quoi.
I have read the statement of the DuPage Democrats, which is the topic of this blog. Nowhere did the they accuse the Republicans of fraud. It is my understanding that the DuPage Democrats made substantiated claims of Republican bias by the DuPage County Election Commission.
Jean Kaczmarek, co-chair
Illinois Ballot Integrity Project, DuPage Chapter
How can someone who watches Faux News, and listens to Rush Slimeball know enough to even use a computer?
If you can blog, you can get the facts on your computer, from legitimate news sites.
Complaints of voter fraud, in DuPage, have been filed with the states attorney. Do you actually expect him to take action? Of course not.
He is a Republican.
This GOP group should be in jail for money laundering through Pat Bond. They all take after their Feuror in Washington.
Republicans don't like people voting. They cry voter fraud every election, but do you notice how no one is ever charged and prosecuted? While in the meantime hundreds of thousands are challenged, purged, and voting machine glitches have the funny habit of making votes in Democratic districts disappear. It's also really ironic that all the baseless charges Republicans make about "registrations" are in swing states. How come 'safe' states aren't besieged by accusations against a "Registration" Drive? And the fools that actually believe that a fraudulent registration somehow translates into a vote, obviously are not to keen on 'Democracy'. Who are these 'ineligible' voters? I keep hearing that 'illegals' vote..like they really want to get caught. Education and lack of information are truly a National Security Threat.
The DuPage County Election Commission has done it's best to rig our election system with equipment and procedures that make detecting insider fraud virtually impossible. Numerous studies by experts at major universities like Princeton and Penn State have shown that all the equipment Mr. Saar and his minions have provided us with are wide open to manipulation. They have less security against tampering than a Xbox game system. Experience in DuPage elections over the last few years has also shown that this equipment is shoddily manufactured junk prone to repeated breakdowns.
The DCEC has been caught redhanded destroying election materials in violation of US and IL law. The DCEC attorney is supposed to offer legal advice making sure the DCEC follows the law but instead fought to keep these corrupt practices in place. All while his exorbitant paycheck goes right back into local Republican campaign coffers. Our tax dollars are also going to pay a vicious partisan Republican blogger to be the DCEC PR flack and one of Mike Madigan's lobbyist cronies in Springfield.
I urge anyone who loves democracy or doesn't believe my claims to become a pollwatcher in DuPage. Credentials and the training required are readily available from either party. You will be able to see what junk the the touch screens and paper ballot scanners really are. You'll also meet election judges who are diligent patriots doing their best to run the polling place for very little pay. What you won't be able see any better than the election judges is votes being stolen under your nose. You also won't see hoards of illegal Democratic voters trying to steal the election as Republicans claim. Voter impersonation is virtually nonexistent in this country. But anonymous you're welcome to don a Mickey Mouse costume and try.
Those commenting on the ACORN (non)controversy need to read the whole story, not just the garbage spouted by "news" organizations like FOX. ACORN was the organization that identified, flagged and submitted the fraudulent registrations they found to the secretary of state's office as required by law. ACORN also fired the workers who falsified those documents - and all this happened 2 MONTHS AGO! The Republican Party has fallen far from whatever moral highground they had decades ago - what party does current serving felon and former Governor George Ryan belong to? The Republicans cannot run on their record, so they have to make up "scandals" and use fearmongering and lies. The Republicans have yet to take responsibility for the failed policies that have led us to this current state - and remember, Gov. Blagojevich (who I am very disappointed in, BTW) inherited a $5 Billion deficit when he took office - from when the Republicans were in charge of nearly all state offices and both houses of the State Congress, and at a time when most states were seeing budget surpluses from the Clinton years. The Dupage Democratic party has very few ties to either Cook County or the state and national party organizations as they were considered a losing proposition in rabid red Republican "territory" - they got no money or support from them for decades - so there has been very little influence from those organizations at the Dupage Dems - it is a very grass roots organization that tends to resist "outsider" influence. Now as to REAL voting fraud, supression and manipulation you need look no further than Ohio in 2004 - four secretary of state officials have been convicted of fraud related to the '04 recount, and numerous lawsuits have been filed and tried - all of them have been decided against the former Ohio Secretary of State Ken Blackwell, a Republican who was also head of the Ohio Republican Bush re-election committee. Of course, facts won't mean anything to the ditto-heads who have commented here. Oh, and "Anonymous" (original handle there!) I have lived in Dupage county nearly all my life, I'll live where and how I like, and I'll vote for anyone or any party I like - if YOU don't like it, maybe YOU'RE the one who should leave! I would suggest Red China - they seem to fit in more with the Republican Party policies than any other country!
to Joe the Fraudulent Plumber on October 17, 2008 12:24 AM :
I will repeat: I am tired of hearing the aggressive whining of the far left in this campaign season!
The far left's attacks on the Republican party are just partisan debris to make us all take our eye off of the illegalities the far left has been engaging in for decades (and which they are being caught on today!)
As was in the Sun's very pages not so long ago, an overwhelming majority of proven voting fraud over the last half century has occurred to the benefit of the Democrat party.
The main tool of the frauds by the left has been the use, misuse, misappropriation, disappearance, and reappearance of paper ballots.
As we are all now well aware, paper ballots are the tool-of-fraud with which the Democrats have the most expertise both in voter registration AND actual voting.
They have been so aggressive in this election that even they got ahead of themselves and forgot to perform some simple auditing of their grossly illegal, corrupt, and unethical actions.
In short, they went completely fraudulent and thus was born ACORN, Sen. Obama's personal little steam engine of corrupt voting!
Keep it up, DuPage Dems. Like Dianne McGuire and her vile campaign methods, you just keep giving back any advancements you made over the past 3 election cycles!
As far as Joe the Plumber --- there is something seriously wrong with the thought process of you and your Party!
Obama/Biden have been campaigning for months as the working person's ticket. Obama walks up to a guy outside his home, the guy asks a hypthetical question, Obama tells the truth (he wants to redistribute income --- ie socialist), and NOW you guys are complaining about Joe?
Get real.
The guy does plumbing work (you would be surprised how many plumbers are not certified --- a lot like architects!)---period!
He is a single father ---period!
He wants to own a business someday ---period!
3 of 4 small businesses that employ 10 or more employees in this country will pay higher taxes with Obama --- period!
Since it did not make Obama look like "the One", he and his campaign and his party elect to try and trash him. Some party of the common man. What a bunch of fakes!
The only thing common about the Dems and Obama is that they drink domestic chardonnay with their brie as they stand out on their balconies talking about the desperate lives of those from the rest of the country who are clinging to their religion and their guns!!
to:Democracy Calling on October 17, 2008 9:08 AM
You wrote "This GOP group should be in jail for money laundering through Pat Bond. They all take after their Feuror in Washington"
You mean like Dianne McGuire and PURE did with the 2007 203 School Board Election? If so, that was LEGAL, though morally corrupt.
______________________________________________
To: Jean Kaczmarek on October 17, 2008 8:31 AM:
yeah, yeah, yeah --- tell it to ACORN!
I think what Glock 22 was trying to say is Du Page County has been historically Republican. The conservative style of small, effective government resulted in low taxes, good schools, roads, infastructure, low crime etc. that brought prosperity to the county. In short, it is exactly what drew the liberal democrat horde to leave places like Chicago, Cook County, the coasts for example where government is most oppressive and corrupt and results in the breakdown of public institutions. But a funny thing happened. The democrats instead of living life happily in their new county decided it should have more Democratic participation. Now you even want to divide Naperville into wards just like home. A VERY bad idea for open, accountable government. Julia: she advocates a two party system to bring open transparency to government. Yes Julia, kind of like the flourishing two party system of government in Chicago, Cook County and Springfield with all of its real checks and balances. (still laughing at that one) Joe the fraudulent plumber: Yes Joe, keep up the public smear campaign by the media of a private citizen. The real story is Joe stood face to face with the idiot Obama, the Harvard lawyer and got him to admit he will take the money of the businessowner and hard working people who earn it and re-distribute it to others who did nothing to earn it. Thats not change I can believe in. In the criminal code, its robbery. In the civil code, its conversion. In the liberal democrat mind, its socialism justice, as long as you are not taking their money and property. Go bow to the asshat Obama, Walt. Jean: you don't need someone's identity to understand an argument. By the way; 1960 election fraud in Du Page County? Population: 123,000, 48 years ago?? Are you high? 1960, isn't that the year of the dead vote in Cook County and that Daley (J) stole the election and delivered Illinois for JFK? Yeah, I remember that fraud-it was Democrat inspired and you use it as an argument in your favore here? Yes, you ARE high. By the way, who funds your little group: Illinois Integrity Project-Illinois? How can I find out information about finances of your group? Where do you get your operating funds? (DNC? Obama campaign? George Soros? Move On?...WHO? How do you spend your money and who do you give money to? Again Walt: it is ignorant to defend ACORN. At least 13 states have ACORN under scrutiny. Walt, where this is smoke, there is fire. ACORN was pressuing people like Barny Frank (who had a boyfriend connected with Freddie or Fannie, you know which one and you know his name) and Dodd (who got his own sweatheart loan deal from Countrywide and who is now the wolf holding hearings on the whole mess while he himself should be under federal investigation by the SEC, FBI and 60 Minutes at the least HA!HA!)to give loans to shaky borrowers and foist them on the government guaranteed Fannie and Freddie. ACORN was picketing banks accusing them of redlining in neighborhoods where people could not afford conventional loans. They were filing frivilous suits against banks to force them into making bad investments in bad neighborhoods because everyone should have a house even if they cannot afford it. ACORN was picketing the homes of bank executives trying to pressure them into making bad loans. The result is the collapse of the GSE house of cards. You can squarely blame ACORN, the Illinois Integrity Project in particular and other advocacy groups that corrupt politicans and ultimately government. Now you come to Du Page County and complain about fradulent elections. I will be waiting in particular to find out what Jean will share about the finances of her little election engineering group. Of course I will also see what I can find on my own because Jeannie, my curiosity is piqued.
Walt, baby. Kookala.
ACORN is corrupt, has been for years.
They have been cheating on elections for at least 6 cycles.
They were big movers behind the Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac collapse.
They were the oomph behind Barnie Frank & Chris Dodd's actions to force both institutes to free up money to everyone who wanted it.
They were the driving force behind forcing banks to provide loans for basically anyone.
Trying to provide cover for them is idiotic.
Give it up. They got caught. Time to Cowboy up and just accept it.
Went to the IL Ballot Integrity Project (BIP) on suggested hunch and find it interesting. It is an outright LIE in its claim to be a non-partisan initiative. Bill Moyers is on page 1 quoted with some sort of his typical brain dribble. You know Bill Moyers, the left wing kook who uses our tax dollars through PBS to fund is ignorant Bill Moyers reports and then keeps the money he makes from that rackett himself with no financial return to PBS. (its called liberal business enterprise) Another interesting thing is all the links to the kool aid drinking left wing site: Move On.org, Rock the Vote.org just to name a few. I think a prior blogger has a legitimate question on the table: ANSWER THE QUESTIONS ABOUT FINANCES. And let me ask two questions: Does the BIP give money to ACORN? Does BIP take money from ACORN? By the way STNG: Thanks for a wonderful front page picture and story today about Sarah Palin rockin Indiana!
Glock 22,
On a daily basis, I am in contact with citizens belonging to a variety of political parties who are deeply concerned with election integrity. This is not a matter of right or left. It is a matter of right and wrong.
Republican IT expert Stephen Spoonamore has been very vocal against electronic voting, particularly Diebold/Premier systems. I highly admire Republican white hat hacker, Chuck Herrin, and have quoted him often in his criticism of electronic voting.
Several members of our organization vigorously tried to prevent the Illinois State Board of Elections' certification of Sequoia voting systems and the subsequent vote for these machines by Chicago and Cook County. At the time of the certification and purchase, Sequoia was owned by Smartmatic Corp., a private company owned by Venezuelan investors.
If you saw our bank account, it is laughable to bring up any financing issues.
At least I have the courage to stand by my convictions and post my own name here. I'm a firm believer in accountability and transparency. Won't you join me?
Jean Kaczmarek, co-chair
Illinois Ballot Integrity, Project
To Anonymous on October 17, 2008 6:54 PM:
"Joe the plumber" is not actually a plumber. He's not licensed and never has been. Do a little research.
Also, I think it's telling and more than a little sad that you seem to think all non-Republicans are therefore "far left". Grossly incorrect, my friend.
Something tells me that the Du Page County Election Commission does a better job running a fair election than apparently ANY county in Ohio. Now I read that a number of computers are missing in the Boston office of ACORN. WTF! Sounds like the Boston chapter of the Integrity Project needs assistance because ACORN there too is now obstructing justice. Florida has tousands of felons on the voting rolls, Ohio tens of thousands by their own admission of phony voters that they intend to do nothing about. And the Illinois chapter of the Integrity Project is concerned about bias in Du Page County? Where do they get their money from? How about some answers from the co-chair who is a firm believer in accountability.
redskin it's funny how Republicans in DuPage always fall back on that "go back to Chicago" line when they have nothing else to say. Funnier still when Pat O'Shea and Michael McMahon sound like they grew up in Bridgeport.
I've spent most of my life in DuPage County unlike a lot of people who spew that nonsense and I've watched the Republican machine calcify into the same pay to play politics we see everywhere else when single party rule entrenches itself. If you took away Schillerstrom's campaign contributions from contractors who do business with the county his huge warchest he spreads around to his cronies would be no larger than Karol Sole's.
I've watched people move to DuPage for those jobs over the years. It's pretty amazing how many South Asians, Eastern Europeans, Hispanics and African Americans now live in what used to be our lilly white suburbs. And I've seen how Republicans love to whine about what that "diversity" is doing to our county. I've also watched how DuPage County shipped low wage workers who don't have health insurance benefits off to Cook County hospitals when they get sick. Keeping taxes and wages low while you try to pawn off your responsibilities on others isn't good government. It's a cynical shifting of costs onto those without money, power or influence.
The sad thing is with the implosion of the latest bubble on Wall St. and the trillions in taxpayer money it will require to try and resuscitate our financial system we're all much poorer now. This county and country aren't going to pull itself out of this mess with a government that consistently tries to shift life's risks and responsibilities onto the rest of us. It's time we had a government that works for the benefit of all the people instead of the tiny few at the top. Enough of the Republican "your on your own society". We're all in this together and it's time Republican politicians started facing that fact or find another line of work.
We've had three decades of Republicans getting the government off the back of business. Instead of prosperity it's brought us to the brink of ruin and corrupted the Republican party.
Mark,
Money? You're welcome to attend one of our meetings to receive a treasurer's report, however I doubt if it is worth the cost of gas to do so. It's hardly headline material. I'd be delighted if it hit four figures -- woo hoo.
Believe it or not, some people have strong enough convictions in a cause to work for free.
Our goal is to insure that your vote is counted. Spooky stuff.
Jean Kaczmarek, co-chair
Illinois Ballot Integrity Project, DuPage Chapter
markg8 on October 19, 2008 7:56 AM
1. Capital flight
“I've watched people move to DuPage for those jobs over the years. It's pretty amazing how many South Asians, Eastern Europeans, Hispanics and African Americans now live in what used to be our lily white suburbs.”
Response
Mark, Chicago like a third world country implemented policies hostile to businesses, punished productivity and savings, and had a soaring crime problem (still does). Businesses got up and left, so did a lot of productive people of all races, ages and religions. For some reason, most people don’t want to live in areas with high taxes, urine soaked sidewalks, drug dealers on the corners and schools dominated by gangs. Would you describe West Chicago, Aurora or Joilet as lily-white? Aren’t Eastern Europeans Caucasians? Aren’t a lot of Hispanics Europeans that speak Spanish?
2. Diversity is the expanded new affirmative action
“ And I've seen how Republicans love to whine about what that "diversity" is doing to our county. I've also watched how DuPage County shipped low wage workers who don't have health insurance benefits off to Cook County hospitals when they get sick. Keeping taxes and wages low while you try to pawn off your responsibilities on others isn't good government. It's a cynical shifting of costs onto those without money, power or influence. “
Response
I don’t know how flooding the country with 30 million illegal aliens benefits anyone other than the employers of cheap labor including a lot of liberals that want cheap nannies and 45 year old lawn boys of which a significant number are high school drop outs (that drain the resources from our government systems) and felons including 30% of the Federal Prison population.
*Both political parties want to give US passports (sub prime loans, free medical care etc.) to this group in an attempt to buy their votes.
*The hospitals in Dupage (including Edward) and the surrounding counties provide tens millions in free medial care for people that “don’t have insurance”. Some of which are people that show up at the emergency room for colds instead of waiting a day (or hours) and going to the County (free) Health Office.
*If all 30 million illegals are deported, then we go from 50 million with free medical care to 20 million with free medical care overnight of which almost half are men between 18 and 30 who are at the peak of their health. So, we could take the money that previously was given to 50 million and spend it to provide better care to the 20 million who either paid into the system or will pay into the system some day. Illegals are “off the books” in most cases and contribute ZERO to supporting our government systems.
3. Republican (and Democrat) Liberalism is a Catastrophic Failure.
“The sad thing is with the implosion of the latest bubble on Wall St. and the trillions in taxpayer money it will require to try and resuscitate our financial system we're all much poorer now. This county and country aren't going to pull itself out of this mess with a government that consistently tries to shift life's risks and responsibilities onto the rest of us. It's time we had a government that works for the benefit of all the people instead of the tiny few at the top. Enough of the Republican "your on your own society". We're all in this together and it's time Republican politicians started facing that fact or find another line of work. “
Response
Mark the bubble was in housing, not the stock market like at the end of the Clinton-Rubin years, with a significant portion of the bad loans attributable to the same type of feel good government programs that you are calling for increasing.
Most real conservatives (and any one that could dial a phone) were vocal in telling the feel good Federal Government to allow these poorly run high risk companies to fail; which would zero out their stock holders many of which are Union run retirement plans like our Teachers Unions.
Make no mistake, the Union Pension plans were the big winners in the bail out.
Instead, we now have a situation where no one knows which mega banks are actually solvent. Instead of a year of heart breaks, we are now in for a decade of recession (like Japan) so that no one will loose, a Liberal tenant. Bush is a Liberal.
*Clinton-Rubin changed the rules to count food stamps as income for home loans, Bush kept it going, Frank and the corrupt bribe taking Dodd were in it up to their nostrils. Liberals from both parties did it.
*Loans to people that don’t exist, a lot of the walk-away-repos are in areas like So Cal which are attributable to people locking the house and fleeing to their home country. This is a risk the Dems. and Liberal Republicans like Bush shifted to all of the tax paying citizens with the flood of illegals.
*The Feds not only tolerating groups like Acorn but funding them in their efforts to force banks to loan money to people that have no hope of every paying it back. Affirmative action loans. This is the Federal Government shifting the risk to the tax paying citizens.
*The current top 5% income earners pay approximately 60% of all of the income taxes, the bottom 40% pay no income taxes. They do pay into their Social Security retirement program and their Medicare retirement health plan. The rhetoric of the Liberals is to turn SS and Medicare into welfare programs which is a betrayal of the promises that were made when they were enacted. At some point, like Europe in the 1960’s, will we see a flight of our most gifted citizens to foreign countries to escape American Socialism?
What are the options to continue Big Government?
*The Government can increase individual income taxes which results in a decline in revenue after a very short burst
*It can tax Capital Gains and stock transactions, most of which are Pension Plans which will get drained.
*It can tax business which results in increased prices and job losses when demand falls.
*It can print money like a third world country or Jimmy Carter and cause hyper inflation.
*Or it can try to confiscate private property like a one time 50% tax on savings, everyone then pulls all of their money out of the banks (which collapse completely) and the USA goes to cash only economy like the third world country we are becoming under liberalism.
LIBERAL REPUBLICANS LIKE BUSH AND THE LIBERAL DEMOCRATS HAVE BANKRUPTED THE USA. WAKE UP, THE GOVERNMENT IS NOW TOTALLY DEPENDENT ON THE CHINESE AND JAPANESE TO PAY ITS BILLS.
4. Who are the feel good, no one can ever be a loser, Liberals?
“We've had three decades of Republicans getting the government off the back of business. Instead of prosperity it's brought us to the brink of ruin and corrupted the Republican party. “
Response
Reagan 8 years=Conservative less government, took the jack boot of DC off of companies with 50 or less employees. Massive economic expansion ensued lifting many into the financial middle class for the first time. Weak and poorly run companies and industries perform massive re-tooling and reorganizations or die. Under a full court economic and military press the socialist Soviet Union (responsible for the extermination of more innocent lives than Nazi Germany) collapses as a direct result. Legislatures controlled by Democrats. First Amnesty program for 2 Million illegals, border and internal security never implemented as promised.
Bush #I 4 years=Kinder Gentler Liberal big government, undid many of Reagan’s achievements. Re-regulated the economy as fast as possible in every area, recession set in immediately. Laid off half of the military to spend the money on feel good social programs which were greatly expanded along with all non military government spending. Legislature (I recall) one Dems. one Republican. Massive expansion of legal immigration from 300K a year to 1MM a year. Education and needs of US set aside for lottery systems. Border and internal security never implemented as promised.
Clinton=8 years of liberalism with genuine conservatives in the House under Gingrich producing sane financial policies and spending through intense negotiation and brinksmanship with the Clinton Administration. Welfare programs reformed and massive fraud eliminated. Legislature both houses Republican. Illegal immigration begins to accelerate. Border and internal security never implemented as promised.
Bush #2= Compassionate Conservatism=Rockefeller Republican AKA Country Club Republican AKA social and fiscal Liberalism. All of the New Deal and Great Society programs re-authorized and massively expanded. Massive expansion of illegal immigration, massive expansion of PC loans and most social engineering programs like section 8, wild spending drives the government into huge deficits. Both houses lost to Democrats after the Democrats ran conservatives and won. Bush and Democrats run the country off a cliff with the Republican Senate lending a hand where they can. Border and internal security never implemented as promised until both attempts at massive amnesty failed under pressure from 75% of the citizens putting pressure on the congress.
Obama #1=Hugo Chavez like agenda of nationalization and socialization of economy, restricted first and second amendment rights. Punitive tax agenda aimed at the backbone of the conservatives, small business. Judge appointments will be based on their ability to use their feelings instead of their ability to read the law or prior rulings as the basis for interpreting the law.
to Anonymous on October 18, 2008 4:53 PM:
Apparently you cannot read. I'm pretty sure I said he is not certified but IS a plumber, which is an unfortunate truth for you.
I do not think non-GOPs are far left ---- only those who spew far left drivel. I believe [again, if you could read] you will find my comments refer to
GOP- hater types of writings.
I will say again --- WHO CARES what Joe's certification is! This isn't about Joe, it is about Obama!
The bottom line is Obama came to Joes's house, Joe asked a VERY GOOD question, and since it was unscripted Obama fumbled it.
Not only that, it FINALLY gave us an insight into Obama's generally socialist theory of taxes.
to By Jean Kaczmarek on October 19, 2008 9:48 AM:
Jean,
Just make sure it is a legal vote and he only votes once!
Why are you so angry about everything, Anonymous (the one who insists on bold-face type, capital letters, and underlining? Please be sure to take your baby aspirin each day. Your arteries are going to explode!
Anon said "Chicago like a third world country implemented policies hostile to businesses". So why did companies like Boeing moved to Chicago? The fact is Chicago does some things well and some not so well. One of Daley's big initiatives was to face up the loss of heavy industry that was encouraged by "free trade" tax incentives to leave the US and chase low wages in China. He developed the near south Lakefront (Printers Row) and the UIC area into residential areas when warehousing and light industry moved out to the burbs to be closer to the transportation hubs. I suggest you drive down to Printers Row and check out the neighborhoods north of McCormick Pl and south of State St. and tell me there's urine soaked sidewalks, drug dealers on the corners and schools dominated by gangs. Or take the train in like thousands of DuPage residents do every day to high paying jobs that aren't available in DuPage. Without that third biggest city in the country, the center of commerce, culture, transportation and so much more in the midwest Illinois would be Iowa. Don't kid yourself, for there to be healthy suburbs you need the big urban center they surround to be healthy.
I wasn't a Daley supporter when he came into office but despite all his flaws he's done a decent job as mayor. Say what you want about him and his family there's never been anybody who loves the City of Chicago more than the Daleys.
"Would you describe West Chicago, Aurora or Joilet as lily-white?" No I wouldn't and Biggert and her supporters resent the hell out of that fact. When they're not hiring those folks to staff their businesses and mow their lawns at substandard wages and benefits.
"Aren’t Eastern Europeans Caucasians? Aren’t a lot of Hispanics Europeans that speak Spanish?"
Fact is from what I've seen most Eastern Europeans who emigrated here in the last few decades started out supporting the Republican party but have since seen how shabbily they're treated by it and have switched sides. It's hard to bootstrap your family up no matter where you're from or how hard you work when the system is tilted toward favoring the already rich. And no in this country most immigrants who speak Spanish aren't from Spain or anywhere else in Europe.
"2. Diversity is the expanded new affirmative action"
Actually "diversity" is the new Republican code speak for dirty unwashed masses you guys fear and despise because they dare to want to compete on an even playing field. Do away with affirmative action like legacy admission into college and George Bush never gets into Yale or Harvard and John McCain never gets into Annapolis. McCain crashed two expensive Navy planes and clipped power lines with another before he went to Vietnam. Any one of those accidents would have washed another pilot out of the Naval Air Service but not the son and grandson of admirals.
"I don’t know how flooding the country with 30 million illegal aliens benefits anyone other than the employers of cheap labor including a lot of liberals that want cheap nannies and 45 year old lawn boys of which a significant number are high school drop outs (that drain the resources from our government systems) and felons including 30% of the Federal Prison population."
So why is it that Republicans fight against making them citizens and taxpayers? Wildly inflating the number of illegals to 30 million doesn't help your argument. There's very little we could do to ruin America's reputation worse than George Bush already has but ethnically cleansing 12 million or I guess if you had your way 30 million people would do it. Try convincing the Shiites they shouldn't throw a huge civil war by forcibly expelling the 20% Sunni of their population, or telling Putin he can't rearrange Georgia's population any old way he likes if we do that.
Let's stipulate that the lower rungs of the economic ladder are not the Republican base shall we? A lot of the jobs uneducated immigrants take are from traditional Democratic core constituencies. Those meat packing plants used to be union jobs with good benefits and workplace protections. Not anymore. Now employers are able to exploit their workers because they can turn them over to ICE if they complain.
Judy Biggert's solution? Out of nowhere on one her teletownhall conference calls a month or so ago she blurted out we needed a new WPA program. Yeah that's right, FDR's Works Progress Administration. I guess she wants taxpayers to subsidize busing poor black kids out from the city to mow her lawn cheaply instead of paying illegals to do it.
"*Both political parties want to give US passports (sub prime loans, free medical care etc.) to this group in an attempt to buy their votes."
Actually Democrats want to make them into citizens (just like Ronald Reagan did in 1986) so they pay taxes and compete equally with everybody else for jobs. We also want their kids to be able to go to college if they get the grades so they can work their way up the ladder. Better education = better jobs = better pay = more taxes to pay off the monstrous debt Republican trickle down economics has saddled the country with. We need a bigger middle
class and less poor people if we're ever gonna get out of this mess. Educating people is the way to do it, not pitting what's left of the middle class against poor people like Republicans do.
"*If all 30 million illegals are deported,... more racist nonsense...Illegals are “off the books” in most cases and contribute ZERO to supporting our government systems."
So why does the Republican party fight to keep them illegal? It shouldn't be a crime for a man to look for work to try to support his family. I'll tell you why the Republican party doesn't want to make them into legal citizens and taxpayers. They won't vote for you. Shame too because Karl Rove was right. You had a great shot at most immigrant groups a decade ago. Culturally they're pretty conservative, religious, and come here looking for the good life our formerly prosperous capitalist economic system allowed. And their kids could really make something of themselves. But decades of Republican kowtowing to racists blew up in your faces. Immigrants have seen what your party really cares about over the last 8 years and they don't like it.
"3. Republican (and Democrat) Liberalism is a Catastrophic Failure.
"Mark the bubble was in housing, not the stock market like at the end of the Clinton-Rubin years,"
Actually if the bubble was only relegated to the housing market it would be more easily containable. But thanks to Republicans like Phil Gramm, John McCain and Judy Biggert unregulated mortgage companies like Countrywide and First Alliance took over that market and wrote liar loans and sold those mortgages to Wall St. banks and Fannie and Freddie who carved them up and repackaged them for a cut and spread them all over the world.
"with a significant portion of the bad loans attributable to the same type of feel good government programs that you are calling for increasing."
That's another lie for the dimwitted who refuse to do their homework. The Community Reinvestment Act passed in 1977 outlawed redlining, the practice of starving neighborhoods of loan money that preceeded so much white flight from the cities. You want to drive down real estate prices and see a neighborhood fall into poverty? Make sure banks don't reinvest the money they take out of the neighborhood back into it. Local busineses and people looking to fix up their houses can't get loans. Pretty soon anyone with means gets the hell out before their equity is gone and the only people left are the poor.
The CRA changed that. Local banks were required to lend to good credit risks in the neighborhoods they operated in. Ask any banker if it was "feel good government programs" that drove Wall St. off a cliff. It wasn't. 80% of the bad mortgages were written by unregulated private companies like the ones I named above, not CRA regulated banks. On top of that Wall St. wrote $62 trillion dollars worth of unregulated insurance swaps on those mortgage backed securities. Phil Gramm the guy who wrote McCain's economic policy saw to that. They didn't have to have any reserves backing those swaps like real insurance policies and there isn't $62 trillion dollars in the world.
"Most real conservatives (and any one that could dial a phone) were vocal in telling the feel good Federal Government to allow these poorly run high risk companies to fail; which would zero out their stock holders many of which are Union run retirement plans like our Teachers Unions. Make no mistake, the Union Pension plans were the big winners in the bail out."
I thought you said the bubble wasn't on Wall St? Where do you think pension funds invest most of their money? Pension funds are retirement money, just like 401ks and IRAs. Keep ridiculing retirement funds. See how far that gets you.
The real problem is the credit crisis. The economy runs on credit. The farmer can't wait til you buy that box of Wheaties to get paid. Saudi sheiks sure as hell aren't going to wait til you fill up your gas tank to get paid. The County can't wait til you pay your taxes next year to fill potholes. Your boss can't make payroll if he can't make get a loan to tide the business over a bad month. The big banks are going broke and they're afraid to lend to each other let alone anyone else, even overnight. Falling stock prices are collateral damage. Even stable well run companies are losing value because they can't get short term loans to buy supplies and big Wall St. players have to liquidate their holdings in an effort to raise cash and save themselves.
"Instead of a year of heart breaks, we are now in for a decade of recession (like Japan) so that no one will loose, a Liberal tenant. Bush is a Liberal."
Ok, I'm done. I've had enough of trying to educate someone who can't even spell "lose" and thinks Bush is a liberal. He's no more liberal than John McCain but I guess he fooled you didn't he? Repeatedly. Here's a hint, when a candidate repudiates everything he supposedly believes in, his core principles, as both Bush and McCain have done chances are you can't trust him to live up to whatever they're promising now. Do you really think after saying for years he believes in getting government off the back of business just like every other good little Republican he's going to clean up Wall St.? He says he wants to do for the health insurance market what Republicans did for Wall St. Don't believe me, you can read it here:
http://www.contingencies.org/septoct08/mccain.pdf
"Opening up the health insurance market to more vigorous nationwide competition, as we have done over the last decade in banking, would provide more choices of innovative products less burdened by the worst excesses of state-based regulation."
Instead, we now have a situation where no one knows which mega banks are actually solvent. Instead of a year of heart breaks, we are now in for a decade of recession (like Japan) so that no one will loose, a Liberal tenant. Bush is a Liberal.
*Clinton-Rubin changed the rules to count food stamps as income for home loans, Bush kept it going, Frank and the corrupt bribe taking Dodd were in it up to their nostrils. Liberals from both parties did it.
*Loans to people that don’t exist, a lot of the walk-away-repos are in areas like So Cal which are attributable to people locking the house and fleeing to their home country. This is a risk the Dems. and Liberal Republicans like Bush shifted to all of the tax paying citizens with the flood of illegals.
*The Feds not only tolerating groups like Acorn but funding them in their efforts to force banks to loan money to people that have no hope of every paying it back. Affirmative action loans. This is the Federal Government shifting the risk to the tax paying citizens.
*The current top 5% income earners pay approximately 60% of all of the income taxes, the bottom 40% pay no income taxes. They do pay into their Social Security retirement program and their Medicare retirement health plan. The rhetoric of the Liberals is to turn SS and Medicare into welfare programs which is a betrayal of the promises that were made when they were enacted. At some point, like Europe in the 1960’s, will we see a flight of our most gifted citizens to foreign countries to escape American Socialism?
What are the options to continue Big Government?
*The Government can increase individual income taxes which results in a decline in revenue after a very short burst
*It can tax Capital Gains and stock transactions, most of which are Pension Plans which will get drained.
*It can tax business which results in increased prices and job losses when demand falls.
*It can print money like a third world country or Jimmy Carter and cause hyper inflation.
*Or it can try to confiscate private property like a one time 50% tax on savings, everyone then pulls all of their money out of the banks (which collapse completely) and the USA goes to cash only economy like the third world country we are becoming under liberalism.
LIBERAL REPUBLICANS LIKE BUSH AND THE LIBERAL DEMOCRATS HAVE BANKRUPTED THE USA. WAKE UP, THE GOVERNMENT IS NOW TOTALLY DEPENDENT ON THE CHINESE AND JAPANESE TO PAY ITS BILLS.
SP,
????
So now the use of available communications devices becomes anger?
You cannot debate issues with facts, so you decide to be snide and attempt undermining humor. In short, you attempt to "Joe" me and others.
I guess that is easier than learning the skills to use the same communications devices yourself.
Rather than further your skills, you prefer to try and hold others down.
How very left of you!
Mark8
White flight and the growth of the Suburbs was in the 1960's. Agree Jr is doing a better job. Why do you think people are moving here from Chicago? Because it is worse?
Clinton signed NAFTA, Buchanan who worked for Reagan says Reagan never would have signed it. China free trade deal was a huge mistake.
S. America is inhabited by every race, just like N. America including lots of Europeans. They all speak Spanish and Portuguese. A Japanese person from Peru is Hispanic.
So there is no confusion, McCain is not a conservative either. Both McCain and Obama are running leftist campaigns. Both are bigger government.
IMHO the "Free Trade" deal with China was a country killer for the US.
McCain wanting to cut out the State regulation of insurance is a terrible idea. The states actually make the insurance companies perform in most cases. Once the FEDS take it over, look for another train wreck.
Fanni took all of the loans "predatory lenders" would not make as direct business. The "predatory lenders" actually tried to write loans that they would get paid for. The FEDS led the charge into bad loans under Clinton and Rubin.
One of the tenants of Socialism is open borders, read the socialist international web site. "We are all brothers". There are probably a billion hard working Chinese and Indians that would move here in a minute, should they all be allowed to move themselves in? All of the research suggests that even if given citizenship the loss per new uneducated and unskilled citizen would run about $40K per year per family even if they paid taxes.
The reason no one will lend money using the money markets is that no one knows who is solvent since the FEDS rushed in to save the "too big to fail" poorly run companies. The reason they are insolvent is that they are holding bad mortgages, the speculative bubble was in real estate.
It was the bad loans that shot the hole in the bottom of the stock market boat.
And finally, yes anything will pass through a spell checker, even bad ideas.
Anonymous on October 20, 2008 1:24 PM -
How very far right of you to be such a jerk.
To: Anonymous on October 21, 2008 12:55 PM
Ouch. I feel soooooo violated and hurt!
When the facts work against you, you get testy and nasty and lash out with name calling. Is that change we can believe in, or is that change we need?
How very left of you to be so "mature" -- Sticks and stones and all that!
Jean,
I voted the other day using the DuPage county machines.
The touch screen was accurate and easy to use.
The paper tape created an audit trail just like a cash register.
What exactly is your concern with the machines? They seem to be every bit as good as cash registers, which are quite good.
Anon
Anon on,
How do you know it was accurate?
Jean Kaczmarek, co-chair
Illinois Ballot Integrity Project, DuPage Chapter
Jean,
The paper tape is viewable by the voters.
The tape roll is no different than that of a cash register for audit. There is an audit trail.
If the voting pc's can be "fixed" so can any other tabulating device including the scanners and the computers that the votes are tallied up on at the HQ.
I suppose we could go back to the different colored stones or shards with marks on them and pile them up the the HQ.
What exactly is your contention? Any device can be monkeyed with. Control and audit trails are how the monkeys are found when foul play is suspected.
Paper ballots can be stuffed in the boxes after the voting, if someone wants to manufacture them. Old fashioned fraud.
Voters can vote as other people unless we start requiring some kind of positive ID at all elections and registration. This is part of the National suicide we are experiencing with the wide open borders and the other catastrophic failures the gov't is inflicting on the country.
Having worked as a Judge, and lived in this country for a long time (20+years), I don't know what the basis is for anyone claiming that we have flawed elections in Dupage? If there is a basis. they should contest the results. I believe that there is a process in place for contesting the results.
By all counts and counters, Bush won the Florida vote.
RSVP
Anon
Anon wrote:
"By all counts and counters, Bush won the Florida vote."
Not true. Gore would have lost the limited recount he was requesting, but might have won if he had requested a statewide recount:
Study of Disputed Florida Ballots Finds Justices Did Not Cast the Deciding Vote
Anon on,
While a paper trail may make some folks feel good, it certainly doesn't make me sleep better at night. It has been proven that a touch screen voting system can send one message to the paper trail and a different message to the memory card. Any "expert" who tells you this is impossible is either a liar or not really an expert. It is the memory card which will be taken to the tabulation room, not the tape.
Don't take my word for it. There is plenty of information available on-line on why these paper tapes are pretty much worthless.
You should also be aware that your vote cast during early voting in DuPage County will *never* be part of any *hand* recount mandated by the Illinois Election Code. The Code states that a full *hand* recount of a random five percent of precincts be conducted after the election. Citizens are allowed to vote anywhere in the county on election day. A given machine at an early voting site could have votes from dozens and dozens of precincts. To conduct a full *hand* audit of the votes cast during early voting would require unraveling the tapes from 15 polling places used for three weeks; this project alone could take weeks.
Finally, no *hand* audit of early votes will take place for any recounts of designated precincts in DuPage County -- all for the same reason.
Of course, a hand audit of these tapes is a waste of time because the tapes are meaningless. However, we believe that a voting method must at least adhere to the rule of law. Minimum standards should be kept.
The DuPage County Election Commission has close crony ties to the Diebold/Premier distributor in the Midwest, which happens to be headquartered in Lisle. I sure hope you keep this in mind whenever you read statements from the Commission regarding the wonders of touch screen voting.
All this information has been given repeatedly to the local media, but so far, the only person who has discussed it is Bill Mego and he's not a reporter. He's a columnist. So it's understandable why you are unaware of the numerous problems concerning early voting in this county.
Jean Kaczmarek, co-chair
Illinois Ballot Integrity Project, DuPage Chapter
To John Q. Public on October 26, 2008 9:41 PM :
You are wrong on the facts. The first lawsuit filed in 2002 was Gore v Bush, and the premise was a very limited recount. The Fla Supremes held it okay to cherry pick ONLY those counts Gore deemed important. The U.S. Supremes over-ruled the decision to limit the recount.
There have been 7 recounts since --- all found Bush the winner by varying edges, all higher than the real, final count. Two of the recounts used math to hit the entire state of Fla --- those were the two with the highest Bush victories.
In other words, the Gore lawsuit was bullcrap and a blatant attempt to use false claims of racism and voter supression to steal an election.
The same thing will occur on Tuesday if Obama loses, except there is a high expectation of rioting (which,ironically,is by definition racism)
I think ACORN has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to even the slightest of open minds that the Dems excell at voter fraud and their method of excellence includes paper ballots and the blatant abuse of the legal system.
Sorry, Anonymous, but my facts are from the article I posted (as well as others that I've read), and I stand by them. We will never know for certain what the will of the majority of Florida's voters was in 2000. But it's academic now.
As for election fraud, I don't like to make this a partisan issue, because I know that both sides have been guilty of it from time to time.