Mr. Rod Randall,

Thanks for refreshing my memory. I am 72 and sometimes it takes me a while to remember old times. I do agree with most of what you said.

It could be Ellen said what she said about "it is mostly Establishment Folks running against Establishment Folks" because she only remembers them after they flipped to the Establishment and not before. It is amazing the number of resident friendly candidaties who flip to the establishment once they are elected to office. The latest to be flipping seems CM Furstenau and I must admit that one shocks me. I hope he comes back and it is a temporary flip. But his position on the library deck is not palatable. It is reprenhensible considering we are nearly $72.4 million in deficit holes when you consider both the budget and pensions funds. And he claims to be watching for our hard earned tax dollars.

I talked to a friend of mine who remembers these early days and he refreshed my memory a little and told me some things I did not know. He tells me that the Napergate Man was actually an activist with these resident-friendly independents in these early 80's but of course not a leader at the time. He was assigned the role of collecting campaign contibutions for Chet Rybicki when he was still not yet 30. Former Mayor Rybicki was shocked when the Napergate Man came to him with 14 checks each for $150 dollars. I think there was a limit of $150 dollars those days. Of course all his work was for nothing because Mayor Rybicki would flip to the establishment who ended up controlling him once he was in office. There was a very famous picture of Rybicki, McCrane and Price that is rumored to have given the Napergate MAN a big headache that lasted a long time. He mentioned that picture in one of his pre-Napergate Ads as he could not believe Rybicki had "sold out" after the elections. When the Napergate Man asked him why he was befriending and joining ranks with MaCrance and Price, Rybiciki told him it was simply politics and he had nothing to worry about. The Napergate Man did not believe him....and history would later show he had good reason not to believe him.

Many people don't know that in the mid to late 80s the Napergate Man ran non-Napergate ads against the establishment in the Naperville Sun before he coined his identity of "Napergate." He also was against City Hall and the police building on this site in downtown. My friend recalls him referring to City Hall as Peg's Palace and the police dept. as the Taj Mahal in his ads. It sounds like he was an activisit campaigning for the people you mentioned in those days....but an unknown activist. I guess he was working his way up the ladder from the bottom to the top.

He had licensing problems dating back to '83 and '84 with City Hall and specifically Prosecutor Francis Cuneo. I think that is what motivated him to take on the establishment for nearly 20 years. People from the 80's know he had another battle with City Hall that went to the Supreme Court in which he was able to reverse a liquor license revocation. So my guess is he was behind this early activism but did not leave a footprint, either, as he worked mostly as an anonymous individual or part of a larger team. He definitely was not the leader at the time but a very important activist. Kind like Donna Rogers was to him when he evolved into the leader of this residently friendly movement that would later be coined as the Napergate Nation.

In the 90s, I think his choice of the word Napergate, was the factor that gave him and his followers an identity. They used that word as the heading for every ad, and boy did he run those ads and many of them 3 times. He made Napergate a household word. He ran Napergate Candidates. He did everything Napergate. However, he called himself the owner of Extra Value Liquors when writing about himself in the 3rd person. He never called himself the Napergate Man or was known as the Napergate Man at the time.

I really believe this Napergate Man title started on this blog site 2 or 3 years ago. I think people forgot his name and just started calling him the Napergate Man and it stuck like super glue.

I am hoping he one day returns or at least resumes his Napergate ads. I think his ads were the catalyst that propelled his grass roots movement. People followed them and they wanted to join his grass roots movement. He could run an ad and ask people to come and support whatever petition he was working on, and 3500 people would go to his store and sign his petition. Probably shopped there generating more money for his Napergate Ads. I suspect many activists probably loved shopping there because they knew where the money was going. It is unusual that a small store could afford 3 full page Napergate ads in the Naperville Sun each week besides his regular full page ad for liquor. But I think he pulled it off because residents were so fed up with the establishment that they went out of the way to shop at his little, but very busy liquor store. (I guess it is understandable why the Naperville Sun was much stronger financially then compared to now....he alone made a big difference to the Sun revenues when Naperville was much smaller.)

I guess it shows you how a little man can become a big man if he plays his cards right. I think that is what the Napergate Man did. He somehow became bigger than life and reached an iconic status that is now part of his legacy.

But the saddest part of all these campaigns is how so many candidates flip flop once elected. I guess if and when these forums take place I hope you and I can be there and ask the candidates if they will flip flop to the establishment after we vote for them. We will have to see if there are any honest politicians left in Naperville.

I am sure the Napergate Man's political life that spanned 20 years was very frustrating. He tried to do good and spent tons of money and people let him down. He chose his candidates from the public forums trusting what they said in their statments and speeches. Maybe he should have handpicked his candidates from his own movement....from his friends like Obama....form his neighbors....from his relatives like Mayor Daley. I guess he was just a little too straight and maybe straight does not work in politics. It just seemed the Napergate Man and Napergatians never wanted political power. They just wanted a resident friendly town.

Maybe what the Napergatians learned is you can not trust your town to others. Maybe the Napergatians need to run their own candidates who have long historys of honesty and not count on others. Maybe they should seek power instead of bestowing power to others who later let them down.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your memories with me, Mr. Rod Randall. I would love to see an activist like you run for City Council one day. You have always been a good man and never flipped or wavered on your principles and ideals. If you run, you have my vote. I suspect all the Napergatians will also vote for you as you seem to be a very principled man who wants nothing but the best for our community. Good luck and I hope I run into you at one of the public election forums one day and we can go out for a cup of coffee later to discuss old times and what we can do to stir our beloved city in the right direction and keep it SOLVENT FINANCIALLY!

Howard,

You make a lot of good points.

You are correct in that in the 80s, there was no slate of a "party". But, there was a lot of activism against the so-called Establishment. One of the large accomplishments in the 80s was related to the furor over the then Establishment wanting both the new City Hall and a new police station to be located on what is now the City Hall site. A partial success by the non-Establishment people in that, although they wanted both the new City Hall and police station to be located on the west Aurora Road site where the police station is now located, only the new City Hall was built on the current site. Many people at the time wanted that land where the current City Hall is located to be used for small shops that would have complemented the Naperville Settlement.

On "big" issues, the current City Council is far from being "resident-friendly." They have voted opposite to the position of the majority of residents who have come before them on such issues as the Nichols Library parking decks, the Edward Hospital rezoning ordinance, the Water Street "TIF" development, the 75th Street and Wehrli Road property, the Ponds of Hobson West rezoning, and now possibly the 5th Avenue proposals.

I was just making the point to Ellen that she was not correct when she stated: "Before the Napergatians challenged them, they were simply Establishment Folks running against each other. It did not matter who won. The agenda was the same."

It did matter and it still does matter.

I must admit that as a group that these five in the early/mid 80s did not leave a "footprint." of success behind them. Yes, there are those who strayed. First, Phyllis Rasmussen strayed and then Glenn Schneider. Phyllis became a person who also wanted to run for a state office (she was not successful when she threw her hat into the ring) and began wanting the support of the Establishment. Glen Schneider lost credibility with his supporters after that two year period, especially when he took on the role as a paid lobbyist for the City of Naperville in Springfield.

What I have said does not diminish the accomplishments of the Napergate Man. I just tried putting things in context.

Since I was part of it, I can also say that the Naperville Area Homeowners Confederation was originally formed in the early 70s by the then "outsiders" to the Establishment. However, there too, people strayed from the original positions (more control over density of developments, be concerned over potential traffic problems, etc.). Two notable examples of this (leaving behind their earlier positions) were Margaret "Peggy" Price and Jim Newkirk.

I do not agree with Furstenau's position related to the two parking decks at Nichols library. His position from the beginning was that he felt there was a need for four parking decks, one on each side of the downtown area. I spoke at City Council meetings on this topic and suggested a number of alternatives to building on the Nichols Library site (including not building these parking decks).

Chester Rybicki was Big Time Establishment even though he was a write-in. He was buddy buddy with former Mayors Samuel Macrane and Margaret Price.

I only know Glenn Schneider from the others and he may have started as a liberal but ended up very Establishment.

I think the Napergate Man was the first to put a slate together and run them as a PARTY or MOVEMENT to take on City Hall. The others ran as independents and never indicated they were a party. They did not run together or a slate.

That might be the difference and why people consider the Napergate Man to be the first to start a Party to take on the Establishment.

By reading this blog site one can realize there are still hundreds of bloggers who claim to be Napergatains that remain from that very powerful movement of yesteryear. The Napergate Man seemed to really have his group organized where he could call a rally and get 400 people to show up and even Chicago TV stations. He could call for Napergatians to attend a City Council and he would fill Chambers up each and every time. He had a very deep grass movements throughout Naperville that he developed with little help from the press. It was almost like word of mouth and street pounding was the root of his grass movement.

While I was in town in the early 80s and following the press, I don't recall this group of 5 you mention, Mr. Randall as making a footprint in Naperville like the Napergatians did. I don't recall any ads by this group. I don't recall any rallies. I don't recall anything. Maybe you can refresh my memory!

Maybe they just stood up to the Establishment in council meetings. But once the Establishment corrupted Glenn Schneider, they were in control and in power again.

The establisment corrupted John Rosanova upon election immediately and weakened the Napergate Movement.

Darlene Senger started doing a little kissing b#t so she can get the Establishment to endorse her for state. It worked! And she is going in state. The Establishment seems to support any Napergatian running for state. They also tried to send Krause and Furstenau to state. I think Napergatians are baited to run for State Office in order to get them off the council so the Establishment can have absolute control. Look at how Bretal Law Firm gave CM DF 2000 dollars in campaign funds to help him run for State Office. He voted against all his projects. They wanted him off the city council. They were willing to help finance his way to STATE. The estbalishment probably cried rivers of tears when DF failed to get elected to State. They are stuck with him now because he failed. They are upset he is still on the council instead of Springfield where he would be relatively harmless. They even censured him. Politics make strange bedfellows, Mr. Randall. What do you think?

And now we have CM Furstenau going against all Napergatians and the Napergate Man and wanting a Parking Deck at the library. Try to figure that one out. Let us hope he comes to his senses again. Maybe he wants to work with the establishment so they will settle with him or lift the reprimand they gave him. I don't know. I am simply speculating. Maybe the Naperville Sun can try to figure out why all these unusual activities are taking place.

Suddenly CM Wehrli is championing the Napergatians battle to not build a library deck at the LIBRARY. Go figure! Maybe he wants their votes in the next election. Maybe he wants to have the highest number of voters for a City Council in the history of Naperville by playing both parties in town! Maybe he could stroke his ego a little if he can win by a landslide like no one ever before him. CM Wehrli is a very egotistial person! He is very cocky almost bordering on arrogance. He usually gets what he wants. I will bet that he succeeds in stopping the library deck. He also wants to follow Mayor Pradel as the next Mayor of Naperville. He want the Napergatains in his camp just like Mayor Pradel has them in his camp even though they disagree on most issues. Maybe he is trying to win them over on this one issue knowing it is very dear to them!

I can see why the Napergate Man retired early. Politics has no sanity. People lose their ethics and conscience quickly when becoming politicians. I don't think the Napergate Man wanted to hang around politicians anymore. It seems like he is much happier conversing with the regular folks when walking his dog. Can one blame the Napergate Man!

By Ellen on December 3, 2008 8:11 PM

...They are the only party who has ever even challenged the Establishment in 178 years since the town was established by Joe Naper and family. As some newcomers to town may not know, our city council is not composed of Democrats and Republicans. Before the Napergatians challenged them, they were simply Establishment Folks running against each other. It did not matter who won. The agenda was the same.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Ellen,

Your historical perspective is not quite accurate. The Napergate Man (that is, he and a group of others) was not the first to take on the "Establishment" in town.

Following are two examples (and I am sure there are more).

1. In the early/mid-1980s several non-Establishment people ran for the City Council and won. Thus, for a short two-year period, these new council people along with several who were already on the Council actually were a majority on the Council. They were Phyllis Rasmussen, Glenn Schneider, Art Collins, Toby Hayer, and Jeff Knuckles. They were backed by a large number of people who met a number of times to discuss various issues that were before the voters.

2. In another election, an "Establishment" mayor was defeated via a "write-in" campaign by Chester Rybicki.

By Anonymous on December 2, 2008 3:50 PM
Anonymous on December 1, 2008 7:00 PM

Anonymous, I'll let you in on a little secret. In order to search an entire web log what you do is first open the log. While open you click the EDIT feature in the toolbar. When this opens up you then click on the FIND feature. A box opens and you type in your search parameter, for example: "100,000". It then gives you a detailed search of the entire blog and searches for all instances where your search word is located. This is what I did on many archived topics. Of course what I found were many Napergatians claiming this number as fact, but I have yet to find the Naperville Sun actually saying it!!

Again (for the 4th time) I don't disagree, but would just like an offer of proof. One of my criticisms of the Napergatians is that one of your group makes a statement which is then quickly followed by others who agree and praise the writer for "investigating" and "enlightening" everyone. It then becomes true because enough of you keep saying it.

====================================================================

Establishment Anonymous,

I have been missing for a while but got caught up and posted your "challenge" comments above. You were a wimp who posted under Anonymous and now you can not be held accountable for your untruthful comments. You can not be held accoutable for your challenge. As one blogger said you ate crow and disappeared.

Of course I remember that comment of 100,000 views by former Host Ted. Why would the Napergatians fabricate that? Why would Host Ted allow them to continue repeating it if it was not true? The Napergatians were simply quoting Host Ted who made the statement believing it was true.

I would like to commend former Host Ted for taking time out of his busy schedule, coming on and clearing an issue of credibility. One thing that the Napergate Man always preached was maintaining credibility. I am glad to see my fellow Napergatians maintained credibility. I am glad former Host Ted continues to follow his old blog site and cares about it and its credibility. While we all miss Host Ted, we wish him luck in his new position, and we all look forward to working with new Host Chris who seems to be doing very well at a very early stage. I am sure former Host Ted would agree with me.

It does disturb me that some one can post as Anonymous, say what he wants, disappear and reincarnate himself as a new poster with a new handle. Posters should be required to use their same handle. Thus they could not come on here trying to destroy the credibiliy of others with their comments like this Diarrehea Establishment Blogger who is gutless to return and face the music.

I commend Original Joe for doing the research that showed the Napergatians were being reasonable when suggesting a weekly post total of 1000-2000. I have no doubt that number is reasonable.

With so many more viewers viewing than bloggers blogging, it is hard to undertand how this Establishment Anonymous Crow Eater could have determined that the viewers were only 1000 even though we had 100,000 views and up to 2000 weekly posters. The Napergatians accused him of using funny numbers and I think Orginal Joe proved that he was using funny numbers with his computer model. I would also like to add my thanks to Blogger Joe. It seems like he wants to be a fair man and seek the truth. Who can not respect him for that?

I think Orignial Joe showed he was a good guy when he went out of his way to help those businesses suffering due the the Bailey Bridge closure. Joe showed he was a classy and kind guy with a big heart. He may disagree with the Napergatians but I think he means well and has every right to question us and our motives.

As far as this Establishment Anonymous, all I can say is good riddens and I hope he is enjoying his feast of crow.

Host Chris,

Thank You for your comments. I think you are taking this blog in the right direction. I just want you to know that once Moderator Jim also told Ken to kind of drop it. He did not!

I believe calling the Napergate Man a criminal is borderline libel and I do not know why the Naperville Sun would want to take a chance and publish such comments and possibly risk a lawsuit one day.

There are many serious issues that concern this community and you are doing an excellent job with the threads you choose for us to post on.

It seems like a lot of people in town don't want to hear a differing viewpoint presented by the Napergatians. They have every right to push their agenda. They have every right to try to compete with the Establishment in the next election. They have proven they are capable in the past. Hopefully the past is an indication of the future.

They are the only party who has ever even challenged the Establishment in 178 years since the town was established by Joe Naper and family. As some newcomers to town may not know, our city council is not composed of Democrats and Republicans. Before the Napergatians challenged them, they were simply Establishment Folks running against each other. It did not matter who won. The agenda was the same. They were just running to see who can obtain a retirement pension and full health benefits by sitting on the city council. All they had to do was show up, pick up the packet, not read it and rubber stamp everything proposed by the City Manager, developers and the Brestal Law Firm.

I am glad the Napergatians opened the eyes of the Napervillians as to what has gone on in this town for nearly 160 years before their involvement in the early 90's and behind closed doors.

What the?

Don't blame the Napergatians.

You had an Establishment Anonymous who challenged the Napergatians in a threatening manner 4 TIMES to prove that former Host Ted made the remark of a 100,000 views.

Thankfully former Host Ted came through and acknowledged making the remark and no one had to call him. It seems like Estabishment Anonymous had to eat crow. To bad the Napergate Anonymous was not around to see him eat crow for the second time as the NA made him eat crow once before.

EA disappeared and probably remained anonymous fearing he would one day have to eat crow. Never thought he would have to eat a double serving, I bet!

Then you have Original Joe always doubting that the Napergatians are real people.

Well, you have some of them like Liebert, Randy, Scott and a few others literally identifying themselves. I think OJ knows they are real people but he wants to identify them. He has gone to Dunkin Donuts and the Napergate Man's Plaza looking for Napergatians to identify them. It seems like he has developed an obsesssion to make sure they are real. He was busy working 18 hours a day when the Napergate Movement was in full swing so I think he feels he missed out on something.

And then you have this Establishment Anonymous not believing this blog site can generate 1000-2000 posts a week. You have no other than Establishment Joe doing the research for the Napergatians and telling them they were right. Many thanks to Establishment Joe who seems to have developed some feelings for the middle class Napergatians.

And finally you have Loose Cannon Ken calling the Napergate Man a criminal and claiming he is only responding because bloggers denied he was a criminal first. He wants the bloggers to believe that the Napergatians made a denial without an accusation being first present. I have to agree with the blogger that said Loose Cannon Ken has very loose bearings.

Finally, we have our new Host Chris, pointing out to the Napergatians that Loose Cannon Ken is egging them on to get his daily dose of rises.

Yes, it does seem like a soap opera and fun to follow. I usually also just read but I enjoyed writing today.

To Confused on December 3, 2008 8:01 AM--

LOL!!! I've been following this thread without contributing to it, until now. I noticed the same thing days ago and just read and shook my head--geez!! Moderator Chris has his hands full with this group. The Napergate stuff predated my time here in Naperville, so I stay out of the fray on this topic, but I do like reading about it. All the same, it is funny how a simple request asking folks to behave has morphed into a serious argument over how many hits this blog site gets. Never a dull moment . . .

Joe,
As far as succumbing to pressure I was mostly talking about the Old Naperville Sun....even though I believe any local paper can succumb to pressure from powerful politicians ruling any town including the New Naperville Sun.

You really don't need to talk to the Napergate Man to review the history of the Napergate Era and see how it can help us today wih the numerous problems we face. His words and deeds are archived in the Naperville Sun and library. They could be look up and I believe former Host Ted did do that when running the nice article about him.

While I can't speak for the Naperville Man, I would not want to interview with a newspaper that allowed people to call me a criminal. I know when the Napergate Man was running his ads they would never let him call someone a criminal unless he was a CONVICTED FELON and he was required to show proof. I had to cover the store for him many times while he searched for documents the Sun required for proof as the internet was not like it is today. Maybe libel standards are not the same these days as they were those days. I really don't know. Maybe Ted and new Host Chris know something about new standards of libel. Maybe libel for blog sites has a different threshold than print. Again, it is not my field and I do not know!

Can you imagine the Naperville Sun calling Mayor Pradel or Attorney Bill Brestal a criminal because of traffic violations. Many of our politicians have DUIs and DWIs and they are never called criminals.
The Napergate Man apparently is trying to be positive. He is being positive by ignoring all those who call him a criminal.....I commend him for that and for not lowering his level to their levels.
I only wish the Napergatians would not respond to Ken. I do agree with Host Chris is that he is only here to get a rise which to me indicates immaturity. I am glad Host Chris said that as it may lighten the Napergatians up a little bit and maybe ignore him.

But I do believe the Sun would have greater credibility if they did not allow posters to libel the Napergate Man. Who knows....one day the Napergate Man may give the Naperville Sun an interview.

Or maybe he would just rather pay for another Napergate Ad so his words can be quoted properly. A lot of times when you give an interview it is edited and your message can be taken out of context. It could be he had a lot of credibility in the old days because he watched every word he said, his attorneys reviewed what he said, the Sun vetted out what he said and he never allowed anyone to misquote him or quote him out of context. He always seemed confident in what he was doing and rarely second guessed himself.

I agree with you, Joe, that the Napergate Man is a nice and pleasant gentleman. My wife and I enjoyed working for him for over 5 years. When we could not make ends meet while we lived in Naperville, he gave us interest free loans. He once loaned me 2000 dollars so I can pay my real estate tax bill which I had not planned or budgeted for and much more than I expected. I paid him back as I could and he never complained about my snail's pace. He loaned my wife money to buy a car when she had an accident, also interest free. And he always gave us nice bonuses for Christmas since we had to be open 15 hours a day even during the Holdidays as he wanted to keep his customers happy and service them at all times. His customers seemed to all become his friends and many of them became Napergatians when he needed them in his epic battles.

I would like to say that Napervillians are very good people. They really do care about each other and watch out for each other more than most towns. I miss living in Naperville but feel fortunate that I can still visit as I am not too far away. You guys have a great downtown and we love visiting and dining there.

When someone declines an interview by the paper and subsequently the paper drops the topic one can hardly call that censorship or 'succumbing to pressure from the Establishment'.

He seemed like a nice and pleasant gentleman when I saw him in a local market over the summer and said 'Hi'.

Original Joe,

Your many accusations that Napergations are some fictional characters from a fiction book are a little ridiculous.

I worked for the Napergate Man as a Manager in the late eighties and early 90s. I think there was another manager between me and Commander Dan Shanower who also worked at his Bailey Rd store. My wife managed his video store next door in the same time period. Her name is Christy. I wrote a Letter to the Editor to the Naperville Sun in the early 90s. They called me to verify that I was real person and published my long letter with a nice heading in the Letters to the Editor. It can be looked up and it is under my real name.

As I mentioned in an earlier letter I volunteered a lot in the Napergate Movement after I was done working at Extra Value Liquors I took pride in distributing Napergate V and Napergate VI because I felt working against censorship was a good cause.

I think many of us don't like to leave our last names on these blog sites. I have used my real first name. With technology to look up anything about a person on the internet who wants his laundry aired publicly.

Look at what bloggers have done to the Napergate Man over traffic violations. They made him a criminal and unfortunately it is printed on this blog site and some people will think it is fact if it is repeated enough.

I know many bloggers who blog here such as Randy and Liebert who always hung around the store and were good friends of the Napergate Man. I know they are not fictional characters. Many others I don't know. It just seems that people remain in denial that someone could create a party to challenge the Establishment Party. I am sure the Establishmnet Party did not take us seriously until we got 4 candidates installed in office.

I no longer live in Naperville because I could no longer afford it. Many of my friends in Naperville have also moved to Plainfield. We got twice the house for the money when we moved in the mid-nineties. I hope that explains why I can not appear before the city council. I am no longer a resident. I know Liebert moved to Chicago. I know Randy moved to Yorkville. So, of course the Napergate Movement has been weakened because many of us left town because we simply could not afford it anymore.

I suspect a new generation of Napergatians are evolving and fighting for their right to be able to live in Naperville. That right includes lower taxes that are affordable so they can remain. Our generation did not succeed in holding the line on taxes. I wish the new generation of Napergatians luck in fighting City Hall, stopping government waste, and keeping taxes low.

I could have never survived all the tax increases of 20% year after year if I had stayed in Naperville. I could not even survive this year's tax increase of 9.68%. Who knows! One day if taxes can be brought under control I would love to move back. Naperville is a great town with great people and an awesome Mayor.

I do know for a fact that the Napergate Man called off his series of full page Napergate ads attacking the City of Naperville because Mayor George Pradel treated him very fairly. That is all he really wanted. To be treated in a fair and equitable maner.

I also believe Mayor Pradel was the one that knocked some sense into the City Council at the time who was ready to fight their losses at the Appellant Levels to the respective Supreme Courts. He saved the taxpayers lots of money.

I would like to see Mayor Pradel do the same thing and stop the legal mess against CM Dick Furstenau. That case probably cost Napervillians over a million dollars and if it goes to the Supreme Court it could cost Napervillians $5 millon the way the city council is authorizing money to be spent on the case. All DF wanted was a simple apology. Instead the taxpayers have to pay thru the wazoo. DF did not hire these expensive attorneys. The city did! He has an attorney working for a contingency fee. No one can blame him for this waste of money. Any attorney could have handled this simple case for 5k or 10k for the taxpayers. Our city council are willing to spend millions on his case to make sure their ego remains intact. Ego was also the problem in the Napergate Man's case until Mayor Pradel decided enough was enough. Kudos to Mayor Pradel! I hope he says Enough is Enough one more time.

Former Host Ted Slowick,

Thanks for being a classy gentleman and coming on here and clarifying. I think this Establishment Anonymous was egging on the Napergatians by claiming they were lying when they quoted you simply because they could not track the quote.

With maybe 50,000 pages nobody could find your quote. But apparently Napergatians had good memories. I think this became an issue of credibility with Establishment Folks claiming Napergatians were lying about the number of posts and number of views.

It is obvious to me that Establishment Folks want this blog site to fail. What this blog site does that is very important is that it evens the playing field between the poor, middle class and rich in our society. Everyone can express an opinion if they can take time to write.

Obviously the Establishment who are Upper Class have much more money than the middle class can take lots of ads in the Naperville Sun to promote their candidates. They have a huge advantage over the Napergatians who are middle class. Of course when the Napergate Man who is obviously wealthy decided to chip in with the middle class, we saw the playing field leveled, and we saw the influence of MONEY in an election. That seemed so obvious.

So money can buy ads, and ads can buy power.

While this blog site is not as powerful as the Napergate ads, something that is not in dispute, many of us are hoping it one day will be. The Napergatians are trying to build it while the Establishment folks are trying to rip it up and pretend it has 0 influence.

I believe this blog site is the wave of the future. When Host Ted tied a front page article in the print edition on the Napergate Man to this blog site we say how powerful this blog site can be. He was able to point 300-500 Napergatians to this site and many continue to blog a year or two later even without any reinforcement.

If more of this kind of "tying in" took place, I suspect this blog site would have been busier. For some reason, after the one article on the Napergate Man, we never saw another article.

The Naperville Sun never even did an artile on the Napergate Man when he ran over 100 pages of Napergate ads(I know it was 44 but many were run 2 and 3 times) during his peak influence. I find that very odd and it was explained as that was the Old Naperville Sun. Well, the New Naperville Sun, only did one token article that barely cracked the ice.

I think many newcomers to town would like to learn about the history of the Napergate Era. The only way they can learn is by blogging. I think it is unfortunate that the Naperville Sun to some extent still fears the mighty Establishment and tries to keep the Napergate Man and Napergatians out of the limelight and as far back in the rear view mirror as possible.

We will see if Host Chris can truly create a new Naperville Sun that is a true Watchdog. I believe Host Ted tried and he was pressured to stop. There is pressure on the Sun and sometimes the Sun succumbs and sometimes it does not.

I think the Naperville Sun succumbed to pressure when it did not publish Napergate V and Napergate VI. The ads were subject to review and elimination of any libel by the Naperville Sun. They were reviewed for libel by the NGM attorney's before even before being submitted. So one has to conclude they were censored for content.

I did take pride when I joined about 75 other Napergatians and distributed those ads at City Hall hand to hand and then to nearly every home in Naperville after the Naperville Police kicked us out of City Hall. I do believe it was that massive distribution of 20,000 copies of each edition that made the Naperville Sun reconsider its boycott. Basically, we made sure every resident knew the Naperville Sun was censoring and the Sun did not like that. The Sun finally succumbed to Napergate pressure which was greater than any pressure the establishment could counter with at the time.
That is a little history for our new Host that I believe our old Host and Editor Tim West are very familiar with!

Farmsteadman, how many times do I have to explain this? Those who attack me or others that have a different viewpoint than the napgergatians are referred to as cult members. Those napergatians that want to have a civil debate are debated civilly. As Chris said, it takes two to argue, and the cult members have way more than two arguing. I am glad that Chris feels everyone's opinions should be heard, not just a select few as the napergatians seem to believe.

Scott, aren't you being a little hypocritical on the libel issue? I have been libeled many times by the cult members, yet you or no one else says a word about it. I tell the truth when the cult members try to obfuscate it about the napergate man, and you feel you have to step in? You are a perfect example of the way the cult members do business... with attack tactics.

Jessica,

YOU:

"I find it hard to believe that Joe can justify calling him a criminal knowing fully well that his daughter ran a toll or two or three without his knowledge. I think it was obvious on the day of his arrest he did not even know his license was suspended. If I recall correctly, he parked his H2 next to Jimmy's where 12 cops were stationed.

That just does not sound like a situation where someone was trying to conspire to committ a crime. You just don't park between 12 cops if you are ready to committ a crime or if you know you are wanted for committing a crime. Where is the "intent" that Webster asks for? It sounds to me more like an unfortunate incident than a crime."

-----

I don't believe I called him a criminal. I was merely checking the law as it's written and the non-law definitions to see if it fits. My questions to McFarland go unanswered:

1) Has the record been clean since then?
2) Was the previous DWS given supervision or dismissed/found not guilty?

An expunge for #2 (mentioned by McFarland) is an after the fact thing and I said before that basically 'at the time' if the charge stuck then the definition would fit, legally. I also said that if the record's been clean since then the label is not appropriate anymore.

The charge wasn't that one's daughter ran through a toll booth or that one failed emissions. The charge was DWS. Big difference. I accept that the most recent was plead down to a lesser offense. If I was in that situation I would too and would take supervision if I could. The question mark is on the previous one. If that too was plead down and given supervision to a lesser offense then the book is closed on the misdemeanor question. Was it?

If you're going to make a claim, be accurate in that claim. This is the biggest beef I have with the group (This is to Mickie too). It's not your goals, it's your methods. I find the goals obtainable but the methods employed to be amateur, reckless and at times deceptive. How one gets to the goals is more important than getting there. If you get there via unethical means then the goals are meaningless and nothing but self-serving ("*I* want *my* lower taxes"). If they are obtained with truth and integrity and the willingness to accept new facts as they come to light that may be counter to previous suppositions then simply accept them after verification and in the end everyone can stand on their own integrity.

You may not realize this but I actually agree with some of the intended goals. I disagree on some of the specifics of how to obtain them and I completely disagree on many of the methods being shown on these blogs for over the past year when trying to go about them.

So the original post is wishing everyone well for Thanksgiving and asking people to behave which somehow spawns nearly 100 posts from these Napergate weirdos arguing about the traffic this blog gets?

What?

If you guys want to be noticed, show up at a council meeting or somewhere that matters. Every council meeting has a public forum and you can all get up in a line and shout about how the city is going to hell and the only one with the foresight to see this was the leader of your little club. You'll even get on both the Naperville public access TV station and put up on the Naperville web site- two outlets which I'm sure get more traffic than this blog.

Instead of meeting for donuts, meet for a council meeting.

...Except you can't show up there as "Anonymous"!

Hi, y'all. Hey, I just want to clarify one point. Both Jim Lynch and I were given Web traffic reports that indicated blog traffic, and the reports said by the week. Turns out, the reports were cumulative--for the month. I finally figured it out. We'd get these traffic reports, and in the beginning of the month they'd say, total traffic, 25,000 or whatever, then the following week it would say 50,000, and we'd be, "Wow, it doubled," then 75K and 100K but it would fall back to 25K at the start of a new month. So, bottom line, at the time I said we were getting 100,000 hits a week I believed that to be true, when in actuality it was really 100K a month, then. Hope you're all well--Go Cardinals!

Moderator Chris,

My suspician is this Ken guy is never reprimanded because he increases blogging on this site and probably views.

Like many others I enjoy reading but when I viewed Ken making libelous remarks I decided to join my fellow Napergatians and respond to the libel by posting.

As far as pleading down charges from criminal to civil, it does make one "off limits" to being called a criminal. The Napergate Man pled guilty to a civil violation and not a criminal violation. That does not make him a criminal.

I hope you see my viewpoint, Moderator Chris, and look into this situation to get us a resolution on what defines a "CRIMINAL."

As far as George Ryan he is an undisputed convicted criminal so there is nothing to discuss as far as I am concerned. I did not know there was a thread on him but I will check it out tomorrow.
Getting tired! Good night!

Hey Ken,

There you go again. The title of this thread is let us play nice.

If you have no intent to libel the Napergate Man why do you repeatedly call him a criminal. As many said before me, the Napergatians are not going to deny he was a criminal unless he was first called a criminal. You are really the only guy calling him a criminal with Original Joe being a question mark.

What makes you come on here over and over again and call the Napergate Nation a cult? Is that not an attempt to instigate a reaction? Is that not an attempt to get under some Napergatians' skin? Is that not really childish?

I don't think McFarland called for you to censored totally. He just wants to see Host Chris demand you stop libeling the Napergate Man. That is different than censoring. Yes, McFarland was reprimanded for using the a word that was not acceptable to the host. But he was not libeling anyone. He was only being hypothetical in making an argument to explain himself.

Anyway, I hope the new Host does give you a reprimand soon and if I were to guess, you will get one. I think the new Host is not going to continue tolerating your behavior once he gets his feet wet.

I have followed the debate, Liebert. Pleading down the charges does not make one less of a criminal, it just frees up jail space for more serious offenders.

My tone matches whatever I am replying to. Since you have joined in, once again, on attacking me, my tone will once again indicate that you are one of the cult members. Immature? Maybe. Just responding to level that the cult posts at.

By Ken on December 3, 2008 1:33 AM
I find it amusing, McFarland, that you keep asking for me to be censored, yet you have to be reprimanded. When is this civil debate that you keep calling for going to start? Your own post might be a good place. By the way, since I have stated several times that I think the napergate man is a fine person caught by his daughter's mistakes, I think it would be clear to anyone except a complete idiot that I have no intent to libel him. I just like the truth to be told, not the napergate cult fantasy.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Ken,

You may have missed part of the debate that was ongoing today. It is being said here that the Napergate Man plead guilty....but not to the Misdemeanor he was charged with....to something less. No one pleads guilty to what he is charged with. You plead gulity to a lesser charge or violation. Anything less than a Misdemenor is not criminal. Therefore, I think you and Joe may both be wrong as to whether the Napergate Man is a criminal or not.

As far as being civil, I can see that the Napergatians and Joe are being very civil together. The tone you come on with, Ken, indicates you are hostile looking for trouble. You seem to be a man full with bitterness. May I ask why!

You love calling the Napergatians a cult so you can stir them up to attack you. That is really all that you are looking for, Ken. It is really getting very old. At some point you need to realize that you are very immature.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

PS. Just for the record I live in Chicago and enjoy reading this blog site. I once was a close friend of the Napergate Man when I was a builder in Naperville under the name Michael Lloyd. I currently own a restaurant in Chicago. I know I have identifed myself before but I thought I would again to let Joe know I am not a character but a real person. I have blogged on and off depending on time allowed. My first name is Michael!

Here is how I see it, Joe and McFarland.

If he pleaded guilty to a lesser traffic violation, be did not committ a crime in the sense of a crime. He committed a civil traffic violation. If he got supervision as bloggers are suggesting, then once his supervision is over his violation is over.

As far as calling him a criminal, I don't think he would qaulify under the Webster Definition.

Was he irresponsible when he let his 16 year old daughter drive a vehicle under his name...possibly! On the other hand who wants to put a vehicle in the name of an irresponsible teenager. If it is in your name, at least you can take it back when your teenager acts irresponsibly. So it is a Catch 22 situation as to what the proper thing to do is.

I find it hard to believe that Joe can justify calling him a criminal knowing fully well that his daughter ran a toll or two or three without his knowledge. I think it was obvious on the day of his arrest he did not even know his license was suspended. If I recall correctly, he parked his H2 next to Jimmy's where 12 cops were stationed.

That just does not sound like a situation where someone was trying to conspire to committ a crime. You just don't park between 12 cops if you are ready to committ a crime or if you know you are wanted for committing a crime. Where is the "intent" that Webster asks for? It sounds to me more like an unfortunate incident than a crime. I can see how Napergatians get upset when he is called a criminal for something that petty. The man did not even receive proper notice that his license was suspended. I doubt the Napergate Man would drive knowing he had a suspended license if all he had to do was pay a few bucks to have it reinstated at any Secretary of State office. I am sure anyone who can run full page ads as a public service can afford to pay an 80 or 100 dollar fine or whatever it was. And I believe he would have, if he had known!

Anyway that is how I see it Joe and McFarland.

I find it amusing, McFarland, that you keep asking for me to be censored, yet you have to be reprimanded. When is this civil debate that you keep calling for going to start? Your own post might be a good place.

Joe, thanks for the info on criminal status. It should answer the question once and for all, but we both know it won't. By the way, since I have stated several times that I think the napergate man is a fine person caught by his daughter's mistakes, I think it would be clear to anyone except a complete idiot that I have no intent to libel him. I just like the truth to be told, not the napergate cult fantasy.

To: Anonymous on December 3, 2008 12:10 AM

An effective person can enact change in other people's thinking even if they are the minority. It's not a matter of repeating the party line and bashing them until they 'get it'. Effective politics is about concessions and knowing which battles to pick and which to let go of because sometimes you can latch on to an insignificant battle and lose support and ultimately lose the whole thing. Some things have to be allowed to fall on the floor or you will get tuned out and labeled the 'outsider' the 'lone ranger' or worse, the 'whack job'. DF is seen by many as falling into this category as of late and due to that is now seen as largely 'ineffective'.

The 4 elected people were obviously ineffective at getting anyone else to see their point of view on many issues and one even seemed to take the Napergatians for a ride and used them simply to get elected (another downside to politics).

Joe,

I agree with your analysis Joe and your conclusions that 1000 to 2000 are possible. I noticed you even took a month when Napergatians were not bloggin at all since I don't recognize any names of Napergatians.

Another month instead of April where the Napergatians had a a thread and were bloggin heavy would bring us to the upper range of your 1000-2000.

I wish this Anonymous Guy would have identified himself. I guess he challenged the Napergatians and you did all the work for us, Joe. Thank you!

By the way Joe, I am a real person who spoke to Moderator Jim on the phone and exchanged e-mails with him several times. He helped me remove libel from some of my posts during our e-mail exchanges. I thanked him for his help publicly on this blog site. I don't know if you recall.

I guess your research shows I blogged 8 times on that huge Napergate Thread. I am sure that is right and each time I blogged under my own name. I did not change names....not once!

I do agree with McFarland if we were trying to increase our numbers we would not blog so many times under the same handle. Here I am many month later blogging as the same old Mickie.

The moderators can also identify us from our e-mail addresses. I am using the same e-mail address today that I used on that blog site. I think the moderators have more control than you think, Joe. I think they want to maintain the integrity of their blog site. You can't build it up if you let a group shatter it with multiple phony posts under multiple phony names.

Unlike other blog sites who post instantly without review, the Sun Moderators read each post carefully before they allow it to post. I am sure over time they would have detected something of the nature you are describing if it was going on.

What puzzles me is your obsession with the Napergate Movement instead of the issues. It should not puzzle or amaze you that a group that is trying to stop government waste and reduce taxes would have a lot of support both on this blog site and in the streets.

Maybe you can not relate to the majority Joe because you are a wealthy man who does not have a problem with his 20k or 30k real estate tax bill. Maybe your home is fully paid for. Most of us are middle class who need to borrow money to pay our semi-annual real estate taxes. 10k or 15k is not chump change to most of us. We need to keep taxes down if we want to stay in our homes. Most of us love Naperville and want to stay here. Thus we are trying to keep it affordable. That really is our only agenda for now. I hope we continue getting support here on this blog site and everywhere else and it will translate in votes during election day.!

McFarland,

Illinois Misdemeanors Penalties

There are 3 classes of Misdemeanor charges and penalties in Illinois
Class A Misdemeanor

* Up to 1 year in Jail; and/or
* Fine of up to $2,500
* Examples: Battery, DUI, Possession of Marijuana (10-30 grams), Possession of Firearms

Class B Misdemeanor

* Up to 6 months in Jail; and/or
* Fine of up to $1,500
* Examples: Possession of Marijuana (2.5-10 grams)

Class C Misdemeanor

* Up to 30 days in Jail; and/or
* Fine of up to $1,500.
* Examples: Assault, Possession of Marijuana (under 2.5 grams)

I believe anything with a potential for JAIL TIME is 'Criminal'. It's not 'Civil'.

Driving on a suspended license is a Class A Misdemeanor according to the statutes I can find.

For a non-legal definition we can resort to: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/criminal

1: relating to, involving, or being a crime

Driving on a suspended license is a crime, is it not?

For me, personally, I classify it by whether or not someone habitually has trouble with the law. I did say if the past two years have been trouble free then I think the use of the label 'criminal' today is a bit overboard. Back when the offense(s) were committed, maybe the label was more fitting. But, if the record's been clean since the last arrest for a Class A Misdemeanor (regardless if it was pleaded down to a lesser offense since the original offense was a Class A and no one disputed that the license was in fact suspended according to the state of IL or proved it wasn't) then I think calling him a criminal today is a bit much. You seem to be in the know. Has it been?

You can conclude for yourself if Ken is libeling him or not. I don't know Ken's 'intent' which is an ingredient for 'libel' so I can not 'conclude' anything; but at some point in the past it appears the label may have been true.

I believe you when you say there was a movement and they got people elected. Unfortunately even with them elected we are in the situation we are in. That does leave one wondering if they were part of the problem we have today. They certainly did not do anything effective to stop it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Joe,

There was a movement and they got council members elected. Despite the best efforts of the Napergate Man he never got more than 4 seated in one election So he and his followers never had the majority. In most elections he was able to only get about 3 seated. He always tried his best but never could get to the 5 number he needed to make a real difference with majority rule.

I also think some of the candidates he endorsed turned on him after being seated. One being Rosanova. He ran as a Napergatian and ended very Establishment.

Darlene Senger worked very closely with the Napergatians and was a closet Napergatian. I think once in the city council she played both sides of the rope. The ads showing Mayor Pradel endorsing her for the State Seat indicating she would do anything to win. She won and I am sure Mayor Pradel made a big difference since she won by the slightest of margins.

Politics is known to make unusual bedfellows. Look at Hillary and Barak now. Look at Biden and Barack! They were all cussing on each other and now they are one big happy family. It is believed the Napergate Man and Mayor Pradel are very friendly with each other even though from opposing parties. Many Napergatians believe the Napergate Man stopped the Napergate ads because of his respect for Mayor Pradel even though he disagrees with him on most issues. As, I said politics is very hard to understand.

You can have 4 Furstenau's on the council watching every penny, yelling and screaming, but it will not matter as long as the Establishment has the majority with 5 and can overrule the 4 Furtenau's. That is called Democracy. Thus the winning party which was the Establishment Party has to take responsibility for the mess we are in. The Napergate Party got 4 elected but they were still the losing party and were the minority. The majority party is usually held responsible if we have a mess. We have a mess and the Establishment Party who is in power and in the majority must take responsibility.

If the Napergatians ever get 5 elected and they screw up the town, they will be responsible. I think that is how it all works! Correct me if I am wrong.

I enjoy debating you Joe and I am not attacking you personally. I am just attacking your theories and you should not be offended if I challenge your ideas and speculations. I just know they are wrong and wanted to call you out!

I do agree that Jim and Ted were not doing a complete IP check. But they did a few and I think they were trying to create a deterrent effect. It is almost like a policeman is telling you not to speed and you speed in front of him. I doubt the Napergatians would mess around with the Blog Police. They kept blogging in big numbers after they were told they were being watched. If they were all one or two persons, the massive number of bloggers could not have continued after IP numbers were checked randomly.

If there was a character ring, Host Ted would have revealed it when he was boiling over. Many times he was very pissed off at the Napergatians. I think a complete understanding and reconciliation finally only developed in the last few months before his departure.

Joe,

Just for the record Joe, the last Anonymous was me. I was in a hurry to get to the health club and forgot to put my name for the second time today.

From my recollection, he did have these 2 incidents and it was reported by Bob he got supervision. He may have even expunged the earlier one as it did not pop up on his record. The second one remains on his record. If one expunges, it is as if he never committed anything. Just for the record you can expunge a misdemeanor or a traffic ticket, but you can not expunge a felony off your record.

I am not lawyer but if you committ a felony and plead down to a misdemeanor, you are not a felon.

In his case if he was charged with a Misdemeanor and pleaded down to a traffic violation that means he was not covicted of a misdemenaor since he pled to something less.

I think you posted verbatim that driving on a suspended license was a Class A Misdemeanor. You later "yourself" defined this Class A Misdemeanor as "criminal" without quoting the statute. I am just curious if in fact misdemenaors are considered "criminal" in the sense of the word. I always believed criminal was reserved more for felons but I am not really sure. Do you know for sure, Joe?

But what I am sure of since the Napergate Man made a deal to plead guilty to something less than a Misdemeanor and got supervision, he would not be considered a criminal. Thus one can conclude that Ken is constantly libeling him by calling him a criminal when in fact he pled guilty to a lesser charge such as a traffic violation.

I am still hoping Host Chris will attempt to control Ken at some point in the future as he does distract us from the issues with his repeated allegations against the Napergate Man.

And it simply is not believable that he is calling the Napergate Man a criminal because we said he is not. WE would only say he was not, if he was first accused of being a criminal. We would not deny that he was a criminal for no reason and out of nowhere! Does that make any sense to you, Joe! I hope it is safe to call you Joe again since the other Joe may never blog again. Hopefully, if he does he should choose a new handle and not you. I think this should be a requirement of Host Chris since I agree it does cause confusion and can ruin one's credibility.

Anon,

If I recall the history correctly when the topic of license suspension came up, 'Bob' told us of another one in the past for some emissions failure. Was that also done with supervision?

I don't want to split hairs, but since you wanted to with the whole supervision thing, I'm curious.

I cherry picked April 2008 for the 'how many posts in a week' exercise.

I took all the posts, separated out the dates and ran them through a program to count how many happened on each day for the blogs that are archived here: http://blogs.suburbanchicagonews.com/newsblog/naperville-sun-editors/2008/04/

In those threads, they break down as follows:
Posts Date
13 April 1
296 April 10
325 April 11
134 April 12
124 April 13
125 April 14
202 April 15
155 April 16
159 April 17
116 April 18
20 April 19
50 April 2
104 April 20
110 April 21
72 April 22
99 April 23
90 April 24
89 April 25
84 April 26
80 April 27
178 April 28
133 April 29
88 April 3
85 April 30
78 April 4
40 April 5
48 April 6
92 April 7
137 April 8
169 April 9
1 August 5
1 July 14
1 July 17
2 June 9
1 March 19
1 March 31
84 May 1
5 May 10
8 May 11
4 May 12
1 May 13
5 May 15
1 May 16
3 May 17
2 May 18
4 May 19
91 May 2
1 May 20
58 May 3
51 May 4
26 May 5
19 May 6
19 May 7
17 May 8
2 May 9
1 November 15
1 November 16
1 October 20
1 October 22

The 1000-2000 post count per week is believable since also during this time other threads were being posted to and not just the ones I ran through the counter program.

For fun, here are the posting counts by the busiest handles for the same set of data:

...
12 IS IT SAFE??
13 204
13 Anonymous and Downtown
14 Eola Poor Choice!
14 Stinks
15 RJ
15 sickofnamecalling
16 Earth To SB
16 Kevin
16 nosuchthingasneutral
17 MH
17 Spring Brook mom
18 Khazakstan Kid
18 south side s/maker
19 Eola Poor Choice
19 Mark
19 Mark M
23 T.B.
24 SaveEarth
25 Jim Jandick
27 Southwest Naperville Taxpayer
28 John Q. Public
30 big picture issues
33 Civics
33 Metea Either Way
37 Incredulous
38 perspective
46 One Who Values You!
55 anonymous
59 Ken
61 Earth to SB
69 MR
74 D&S
76 Joe
80 Dollars and sense
121 Greg Forrest
1008 Anonymous

I had 76 :)

This took about 3 seconds to generate, by the way.

McFarland,

Host Ted was not checking each IP for each post on the blog with a 'known' list. He spot-checked on a couple of occasions and did see what I mentioned to him about multiple handles from the same IP address. It was never enforced on any regular level like you are suggesting. As shown above, a programming mind isn't a bad thing. In fact, it's rather useful. It makes seemingly impossible time consuming tasks quite simple and accurate. Your team could use someone with my talents but you'll have to stop the condescending remarks and personal digs before I'd lift a finger to help you.

I believe you when you say there was a movement and they got people elected. Unfortunately even with them elected we are in the situation we are in. That does leave one wondering if they were part of the problem we have today. They certainly did not do anything effective to stop it.

Joe,

I believe the law states if you get supervision, it does not go down as a crime and it does not count against your record.

So if he got supervision, how could it be a crime or he be a criminal.

There are unanswered questions here to assume someone is a criminal for a traffic violation that his daughter committed and not even he!
That we know!

His only mistake was keeping his car in his name....if that makes you a criminal, I guess anyone of us can join him rather easily if we already have not.

By Original Joe on December 2, 2008 3:25 PM
McF,

They could have blogged to 'support' each other in the blogs. This happens all the time in many forums/sites where one (or few) people create a 'cast' of 'characters' and 'online personalities' in an attempt to DOMINATE a particular site for whatever their agenda happens to be. It's not a new or unfounded theory. It happens all the time and I think it has gone on here with this site to some extent.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Joe,

Nothing is impossible. But using your Napergate 905 post thread as an example somebody would have had to create a cast of 178 characters. I don't read books but I have never seen a cast this large.

You also ignore the fact that Host Ted did not want this kind of behavior. He was watching IP numbers. He told us he was watching IP numbers. He called out a few people that were using the same IP number thinking they were playing this game by creating 2 or 4 characters. They came forward and stated they were blogging at DD. I believe from recollection two identified themselves as June and Debbie. Those really are the hard facts, Original Joe.

You just don't want to believe them. Host Ted and Moderator Jim were at times very angry at the Napergatians. You know that and I know that. If they were doing what you were saying, I think Ted and Jim would have busted the Napergatians right at the time. They even made an attempt and thought they made a small bust involving 4 but it turned out they were friends blogging together at DD.

I do feel that what I am documenting actually happened based on what transpired on this blog site and I feel comfortable drawing conclusions.

What you are saying is pure speculation and heresay. You have a belief that you cooked up in your head and you would like it to pan out, become fact and make you right. It sounds to me like you are on an ego trip. Reaching for straws if you will!

I guess you must believe there was a Napergate Movement at some time since they got 4 of their endorsed candidates elected in 1997 documented by Napergate ads and election results.

Are you saying all these Napergatians that lived here in 1997 just left town and there are no Napergatians. Keep in mind they endorsed candidates again in 1999 and 2001. Are you saying they all evaporated since 2001?

I think you have to smell the coffee at some point, Joe. Yes, there are probably less Napergatinas now than before. Yes, the movement is not as strong as it was when the Napergate Man was leading it.
Yes, we are unorganized right now. But that does not means our numbers shrunk to 0 and that we no longer exist. Hope that sheds some light for you, Joe.

You need to try to think out of the box since you have a programmed mind that you have set in a certain way and refuse to change the channel. Change the channel, Joe!

Oh for cryin' out loud, let's move past this once and for all:

Illinois Vehicle Code - 625 ILCS 5, Section 6-303

Driving while driver's license, permit or privilege to operate a motor vehicle is suspended or revoked.

(a) Any person who drives or is in actual physical control of a motor vehicle on any highway of this State at a time when such person's driver's license, permit or privilege to do so or the privilege to obtain a driver's license or permit is revoked or suspended as provided by this Code or the law of another state, except as may be specifically allowed by a judicial driving permit, family financial responsibility driving permit, probationary license to drive, or a restricted driving permit issued pursuant to this Code or under the law of another state, shall be guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.

A misdemeanor is a 'criminal' charge.

Was he found 'not guilty' of the charge a couple of summers ago? If I recall correctly from the blogs, the answer to that question is 'no'.

What's done is done and it's old news.

Perhaps if there have been 0 instances of run ins with the law since then maybe it should be considered bad form to refer to him with that label. If that's true, I think 2 years is more than enough time to show that it was a simple 'woops' situation and allowing things to expire or get suspended is not a habitual thing.

Anonymous,

To the best of my memory Host Ted first posted a number of 61,000 or 63,000 views per week early on this blog site. He wanted to crack a 100,000 views. He told us when he did and after that he decided this information is not to be shared anymore. And he never mentioned views again.

In order for you to do a complete search, you would have to search every single thread posted and hope the search is perfect. Not all searches can catch everything. Have you searched every single thread on this blog site that was ever posted in the last 2 years? I kind of doubt it unless you have no life and no job!

As far as Anonymous he obviously estimated 2000 posts per week without doing any research. That is a number that seemed to make sense to him. He was guessing. I am guessing when I say a 1000-2000. What is your exact number if you have one, Anonymous? 77 or 177? Give us a chance to prove you wrong, if that is the game you want to play.

You have not proved Anonymous wrong yet. But Anonymous proved you wrong when he showed many threads with numbers much higher than the posts you found. You had labled the thread you found as the one with the highest number of posters. He copied and pasted and proved you wrong....and how wrong you were missing so many threads with 2 to 3 times the number of posts as the one you selected as being the highest. Obviously, your search methods are flawed and not fool proof.

You have not apologized for being wrong when you certainly were wrong. Why should he apologize for guessing wrong when no one has yet proved that there was no week with 2000 posts. And why should he apologize for guessing wrong. He never claimed he did any research and counted posts per week. I think that is borderline impossible unless you have a program that can adjust for the rotating threads on the main page and factor in the posts on the archived threads.

In your analysis you did not factor in that some very hot threads had most of their post in the first week. For example that District 204 thread with nearly 700 posts may have had 500 alone in the first week. That far exceeds the estimates you were throwing around or thinking about!

Remember that is one of 10 threads and not one of 9 threads as you mistakenly posted existed on the Main Page. The other threads could have generated anywhere from 500 to 1500 posts depending on how hot they were. That 905 Napergate Thread could have generated 500 the first week and it could have been running concurrently with the School Thread. That gives you a 1000 with 8 threads to go plus posts into archived threads. It could easily add up to 2000. I have no way of verifying but I see where Anonymous was coming from. What you are forgetting, Anonymous, is that people continue blogging on archived threads for very long times after they are removed from the Main Page. Did you do any research to show how many posts went to the archived threads besides the ones that went to the Main Page? Obvioulsy not! But you are talking like some kind of expert who knows it all!

You are demanding some Anonymous Fellow do this difficult analysis and prove himself or herself wrong. I think it is your duty to do the analysis and prove someone wrong if you are dying to prove someone wrong. Again, Anonymous already proved your research flawed when you could not even find the highest posted threads in the archives despite trying to teach your fellow bloggers how to do a search and find...lol!!!

It seems like he/she embarrassed you and you are trying to get back at him/her for humiliating you. It seems like he moved on to bigger and better things. I think you should just admit you were defeated and move on to bigger and better things.

Maybe you ought to choose a handle so we can identify you and hold you accountable since you like to hold others accountable. As you know many people blog under Anonymous and you could say all you want and be wrong and still maintain your credibility by being Anonymous. I sense you want to be Anonymous because if you are proven wrong, you can just disappear in the horizon and reincarnate yourself. That does not say much about your strength of character. A man would stand up for himself even when wrong. He would apologize if wrong. You seem to want to run if discovered wrong rather than face the music...to me that is wimpish!

It seems like you are being a little bully when stating "I am now asking for the 4th time." This is a blog site. You have no right to demand other bloggers do your research for you.

If you guys want to prove that Napergatians are aliens who do not exist, it is your duty to do the research. The Napergatians know who they are and do not need to prove they are from another planet.
They live in subdivisons like Farmstead, Huntington Estates, Pembroke Commons, Bailey Woods of Hobson and many others. We all know each other and communicate by phone, e-mail and sometimes when we walk our dogs.

Maybe if you walk your dog in Pembroke Commons you will even run into the Napergate Man walking his dog Abby and discover he also is a real person. Many of us have ran into him and have had chats with him over the years. Yes, for some reason he refuses to talk to the media, but he is always willing to talk to residents he runs into. Even when he was promoting his causes, he chose to pay for full page ads rather than talk to the media. He never used his name. He liked to be as invisible as possible and that could be because he cherished a private life or what he could salvage out of a private life.

Let us face it. Look at what happens when you try to debate here. Bloggers attack bloggers all the time and the attacks can take place from either side. I am sure in the media world when you are a public figure, people can attack you as you become fair game.

As you can see from an earlier post on this thread I thought the Napegate Man was a public figure. Moderator Jim corrected me and informed he is not a public figure and not even "of sorts." That he is a private citizen. So I guess the Napergate Man found a way to do all he did and remain classified as a private citizen. Maybe his attorneys advised him how to do it.

But it always puzzled me how the previous Host and Moderator stated he was a private citizen but allowed Blogger Ken to call him a criminal. Anyway, I hope Host Chris has a different view of what defines a criminal and one day prevents Ken from constantly calling the Napergate Man a criminal. He won't let me use the "a" word with dollars signs so I think that is a step in the right direction to clean things up on this blog site.

Ok, sorry to get off subject. But in summarizing Anonymous has to do the research to prove his allegations. He can not expect other bloggers to verify his allegations. Host Ted works at NCC. I am sure he could take one personal call not related to his new postion without getting fired. Please call him and ask him. He may even remember what thread he said it on. But I am sure he was giving out number of views until he reached 100,000 and then stopped.

Maybe you ought to see if 61,000 or 63,000 pops up in your search as that was the first time he gave a number of views. I can not recall when he said that or on what thread, but I am sure he gave that number initially. It may not be easy if you have to search every single thread. I would rather see you promote solutions to our city problems instead of trying to figure out if there are 5,000 or 10,000 Napergatians in town. I don't think anyone knows. Many people are sympathetic to the Napergatian causes and call themselves Napergatians.

Unless I am wrong I believe Bloggers Maryann and Kevin were not part of the original Napergatge Movement but became Napergatians right on this blog site. I am sure there are many other such cases.

I think in the end all that matters is the Napergatians and their numerous sympathizers can get out enough voters on election day to oust some establishment candidates. It takes up to 12,000 to 15,000 Napergatian voters and sympathizers to oust a current establishment city council member by voting for his opponent. It simply can't be done with ghosts. It has to be done with registered voters.

It was done in the past and it could be done again with a little effort. Obviously, Napergatians know this one blog site can not swing an election. But Napergatians believe in hitting the pavemenrt before elections and I believe will hit the pavement hard before the next election. No one is expecting any Napergate Ads but if they happen, it would be a great boost to the Napergatians and their morale. Everything helps when you are campaigning. The chips will fall where they will and soon the future will be history and we will have hindsight.

Anonymous on December 1, 2008 7:00 PM

So how could you claim you did a search...that is nonsense and goes to your credibility

____________________________________

Anonymous, I'll let you in on a little secret. In order to search an entire web log what you do is first open the log. While open you click the EDIT feature in the toolbar. When this opens up you then click on the FIND feature. A box opens and you type in your search parameter, for example: "100,000". It then gives you a detailed search of the entire blog and searches for all instances where your search word is located. This is what I did on many archived topics. Of course what I found were many Napergatians claiming this number as fact, but I have yet to find the Naperville Sun actually saying it!!

Again (for the 4th time) I don't disagree, but would just like an offer of proof. One of my criticisms of the Napergatians is that one of your group makes a statement which is then quickly followed by others (or at least other names are used) who agree and praise the writer for "investigating" and "enlightening" everyone. It then becomes true because enough of you keep saying it.

I will ask again (also for the 4th time, and last I might add) to show me a week that exceeded 2000 posts. Remember YOU were the one who claimed that finding this would be EASY:

Anonymous on December 1, 2008 11:45 AM
Anonymous, You could easily find 2000 posts per week if you did your homework

I guess this is proving more difficult than your assertion. I see that Maryann and Mcfarland have jumped to your rescue, I also see that their claim is more like 1000 per week which if you haven't noticed is a subtle Napergate way of letting you know you are mistaken.

All of this is done for a reason. The Napergatians claim large numbers of supporters and heavy influence on the city. When you make this claim you need to back it up which Anonymous has tried to do by claiming these inflated numbers.

Ken,

Your post indicates you want everything to be about you.

I never posted under another NAME. I once posted under a PHRASE without giving it much thought to try to fit in with the school folks who were using phrases and not names. So I did not lie....you are lying as usual, Ken! Possibly, hallucinating!

I also was not trying to be deceptive is I later told bloggers that handle was my post. No one caught me. I volunteered that I used a handle as a phrase when a question arose. I showed honesty. Have you ever posted under another handle, Ken? Let us see if you can be honest as I was. Again, I did not have to volunteer that information, no one knew, no one caught me, I just chose to volunteer that I once used a different handle. I guess, honesty is criminal in your book. It shows why people really dislike you.

Ken, why in the world would Napergatians deny that the Napergate Man is a criminal unless he was accused of being a criminal. Now think about that Ken if you have the least comprehension. They denied he was a criminal because you accused him of being a criminal. I have never seen anyone but you accuse him of being a criminal.

Ken, since you have some very loose bearings as others have said before me, let me ask you would you deny being a rapist unless someone ACCUSED you of being a rapist. Why would you come on this blog site and just say, "I am not a rapist." Your statement defies logic, common sense and reason.

Why would the Napergatians come on here and just out of nowhere say the Napergate Man is not a criminal. They would only come on and say that ONLY if he was FIRST accused. Who accused him? We all know Ken that it was you who accused him. Further, you admitted that you accused him 4 times in your own words.

And if a Napergatian called you a name unprovoked which I doubt, you have no right to attack an entire group for the statement of one member who was not an official spokesperson for the group. That person could also not be a Napergatian but disguising as one to fuel a fire for all we know. Of course I am aware many Napergatians attacked you but only after you called them a cult or called their leader a criminal.

Can you attack 100 million Republicans and call them a$$holes because you Republican neighbor rubbed you the wrong way.

You really need to grow up. You probably consider one asking you to grow up, an attack. It is not! It is advice to an immature person!

McF,

They could have blogged to 'support' each other in the blogs. This happens all the time in many forums/sites where one (or few) people create a 'cast' of 'characters' and 'online personalities' in an attempt to DOMINATE a particular site for whatever their agenda happens to be. It's not a new or unfounded theory. It happens all the time and I think it has gone on here with this site to some extent.

I keep saying no one can prove it one way or the other and my possible theory holds just as much water as your 'conclusion'. Again, IPs associated with each post will reveal more.

I doubt there are policemen and firemen on here blogging to save heir pension mainly because people talking about removing them are not a threat to them. These 'people' haven't even formally presented the notion during Public Comment at a City Council meeting and I have not seen it on any City Council Agenda. If I missed it, please post the URL to it. I would like to read it. Until then, bloggers have 0 power over the police and fire pensions. Bloggers are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things until they actually show up and speak at Council Meetings; where the real voting happens.

By Original Joe on December 2, 2008 6:48 AM
McF,

I believe you are drawing conclusions from the numbers I post that are not supported by the numbers. Each conclusion you suggest can have other contrary 'conclusions' that all boil down to the reader injecting their own assumptions about the data to support their predetermined point of view. For example, people could change their handle to post several 'me too' posts after they tried to make a point and failed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Joe,
This issue has bothered you for a long time. You have interpreted data to support your claims that maybe all the Napergatians are only one person or a few at most.

I just disputed your theories based on what you posted.

1. I simply don't think one or two people could have written all that stuff especially since some posts are chapters if not books.

2. I bet there are tens of thousands of pages on this blog site and you would need a dozen full time authors to have written all that stuff.

3. Again, you have not explained if there was some conspiracy amongnst Napergatians to increase their numbers why they would allow Diana to blog 53 times under the same name, Maryann 27 times under the same name and Randy 12 times under the same name on one single thread. If there was some Napergate Conspiracy those 3 would have blogged using 92 different handles instead of only 3. That would have added 89 Napergatians. Nothing like that happened! Why, Joe?

I just think your logic and reason is disputed by the research you did. Based on your own research which I have no doubt was accurate, your own theories makes no sense.

Besides I am not sure why you are obsessed with this issue.

If doubling up on handles is an issue, I see it more from the city supporters who use phrases as handles and change their phrases with each blog. If you are trying to be a policeman, Joe, you should investigate both sides and not one side. You need to be a fair policeman.....not a biased policemen who favors one side or another. You have gained respect from many Napergatians in the last few months and if you would like to keep that respect you need to be fair and investigate both sides equally.

While, I have no proof either, I think it is the city supporters who have done this doubling up if anyone has done it. They have a lot to lose if their pensions get wiped out. The entire state of California is now on the verge of bankruptcy due to the pension mess. First, it was only particular cities...not it is the entire state.

I see the Napergatians are doing the city employees a big favor by telling them to buckle up and tighten their seat belts. If city employees tighten up, they may be around for a long time. If they don't, they may not only be out of future pensions but even out of jobs. And we all know nearly 50 jobs will be lost in the upcoming months. I would rather see no one lose their job but when a city needs to buy new cars at 53,000 miles, an employee sometimes has to pay the price by losing his job. That may be what is happening. The waste in government has now caused human job losses. Families will suffer! That just does not seem fair to our city employees and their families!

McFarland, you are a perfect example of why I call some napergatians cult members. You posted five falsehoods in your rambling missive to Joe.
First, you say you wish to be civil, and then attack me.
Second, Kevin didn't say all my posts were derogatory.
Third, you claim you have never posted under another name.
Fourth, I never claimed to call the napergate man a criminal because of allegations thrown at me. I point out he is a criminal when the cult members try to deny it.
Fith, I have never blamed the napergate man for his cult member's actions. In fact, I have often posted that I think he would be ashamed of the way a group claiming him as his leader has acted on these threads.
I am more than willing to play nice, as this thread called for. That doesn't mean that I will let the cult lies go without challenge.

Joe,

The infamous DD does have a wireless internet available to its customers. I have used it. Also many students and employees use it on a regular basis. Maybe, your computer was just not compatible. How old is your computer?

I had trouble with my old laptop there but my new laptop gets a very good signal.

These coffee shops will be at a competitive disadvantage without wireless these days. Both DD and Starbucks have them in all there stores. I believe it is required by corporate. Customers deserve this benefit if they are going to spend 4 dollars on a latte.

Sultan,

Not sure what point you are making. I did once use a phrase as my handle since everyone in the school district was using funny no-name handles. I was not trying to deceive anyone as I was blogging with a totally different group who did not know me from Adam or Eve. Plus, I even identified that I was the person behind the phrase handle. Really, no big deal! It was done on a school thread and it was not done to push my party or the Napergate Agenda.

I would agree with you that the Napergatians have a new appreciation for the Naperville Sun. The Naperville Sun is giving us freedom to blog without any censorship. At one point they did not want us to mention we were Napergatians when blogging. We liked mentioning who we were and identifying ourselves and promoting our group. Democrats like to be identified as Democrats and promote their agenda. No one thinks that is evil. Republicans like to be identified as Republicans and promote their agenda. We liked to promote our agenda in the same way and at one point the Sun said no.

For a while we were only allowed to blog on the Napergate Thread. We obeyed and went there and livened an archived dead thread...the one that hit 905 posts. All the bloggers that wanted us not to blog followed us there to debate us. It became the busiest blog ever. I think the Sun at that point realized partial censorship does not work and just leads to more problems. They gave us complete access on all threads on their blog site and we have all been one big happy family ever since.

Obama and Hillary cussed each other out pretty well during campaign season. Now they are buddy buddy. We and the Sun had our issues and now we are buddy buddy and on the same wavelength. I think the Sun finally appreciates us and we appreciate the Sun. Sometimes debate leads to resolution. We debated the Sun and now everything is fine between us. It seems like some establishment folks are angry that the Sun finally treats us as equals.

For a blog site you need controversy to have success. Perfect example is Tim West's blog site. He does not welcome Napergatians or anyone with an opposing viewpoint. His blog site was a total failure. I think that had a lot to do in the decision of Sun Executives not to put him in charge of the blog site. They made the right move and hopefully their blog site will one day hit 200,000 views per week. I wish them nothing but success and appreciate how they have been handling difficult situations.

Anyway, your blog was a little incoherent, Sultan! I hope I addressed your concerns. Have a nice day!

McFarland on December 2, 2008 1:55 AM
I take pride in being McFarland and writing as McFarland

Naperville Sun editors on March 17, 2008 12:39 PM
Moderator Jim to McFarland: I don't appreciate your veiled threats against the paper. If all you Napergatians wanted to support the paper that, yes, gave you this forum then you would encourage them to buy the print edition as well as go to the web. The print and web compliment each other and there's stuff you find on the web that you don't get in the print edition and the other way around as well. Also, I suggest you bone up on your media law before you call the Napergate Man a "public figure." He definitely is not. Not even "of sorts"
Imagine being in a courtroom and defending thaty by saying "of sorts."

Question for Host Ted on May 21, 2008 5:06 PM

The Moderator and Host never said we could not use titles. I saw that being used on the School Disctrict Threads and enjoyed doing the same on this thread.

If you need to know who I am Joe, I am McFarland. This is my first time posting under a different name. I expect to go back to McFarland when we have a Napergate Sanctioned Thread as I like my fellow Napergatians to know who I am. I don't see or recognize any Napergatians here so I thought I would have some fun with a title.

___________________________________________________________

McFarland, or "Question for Host Ted" as you have gone by before. you have had many great posts and make very many good points in your discussions. But when you scolded Old Joe it made me remember some incidences in your past blogging so I looked them up and copied them above. It is self explanatory that you have used a different name in the past because you admitted it to Joe, and it is also apparent that you weren't always so "civil" as you tell Joe to be. The scolding you received from moderator Jim points this out.

It's also refreshing to now see the Napergatians with a new appreciation for the Sun. Also, according to moderator Jim, this was not always the case.

McF,

I went to the infamous Dunkin several times during that period hoping to find an open WiFi but for some reason was unable to. My laptop has no problem hopping on in other places like Panera or the Library so I am curious if they even have one as claimed or if it's even open to the public.

I believe you are drawing conclusions from the numbers I post that are not supported by the numbers. Each conclusion you suggest can have other contrary 'conclusions' that all boil down to the reader injecting their own assumptions about the data to support their predetermined point of view. For example, people could change their handle to post several 'me too' posts after they tried to make a point and failed. We don't know and can not prove one way or the other with the numbers posted so drawing a conclusion about it is reckless. What I always did find interesting was when there were several posts agreeing with what someone 'posted' but the repliers agreed to it and referenced things in the post before the original reply was actually posted to the blog. I always found those comical and while it does tend to 'support' my theory on occasion it does not 'prove' it.

To answer your multiple handle question to me; on these threads I posted as Joe, and now Original Joe because someone else posted on more than one occasion as 'joe'. The first time I saw it I just kept it in mind; but when they did it again and posted things that did not align with my point of view I saw it a responsible step to differentiate myself from the other poster so there would not be confusion or things attributed to me that I myself did not post. On occasion I also forgot to fill in the Name portion and had some post as Anonymous but I believe I clarified each one of those in followup posts when they did happen. I am no one else but me in here. I have no agenda one way or the other so there is no motive. My other speculations about people using multiple handles is 'supported' by the motive to push an agenda but as I pointed out earlier; it does not 'prove' it. I try to keep an open mind that I may be right and it's possible I may be wrong in my theory. We'll never know without the IPs associated with each post.

Original Joe,

I think the original debate was simply about number of posts per week between the Napergate Anonymous and the Establishment Anonymous. I am refering to them in that manner since they both did not identify themselves. I think on the issue of number of posts per week, the Napergate Anonymous won. I guess you alone had more posts than the Establishment Anonymous believed was taking place during this peak season of blogging. Yes, 151 yourself! Amazing if you ask me but you were a different Joe in those times! You have really changed in a good way.

178 unique handles for one thread in my opinion is very impressive. For the most part except for guys like you and TB, most bloggers were not cross blogging from Napergate Threads to School Threads. Thus the school threads had their own contingent of unique bloggers separate from the Napergate Threads with you and a few others being the exception.

I think you data indicates most bloggers blog more than once. I know you want to believe bloggers like to change their identity. I can't speak for all bloggers but I think Napergatians like to keep their identity and use their first names so other Napergatians know who they are and recognize them when they blog.

Diana blogged 53 times. Many of her blogs were very long. She was a Napergatian. If she was playing the game you think is being played why would she blog 53 times using the same handle. Why not have a different name for all 53 posts and pretend the Napergate Nation is larger than it really is? Obviously she did not believe in doing that and no one instructed her to do such a thing. The evidence seems to point in that direction.

Same thing applies to Maryann. She blogged 27 times. She was writing chapters at one time. If she was trying to inflate the number of Napergatians why would she blog under the same handle 27 times on the same thread writing chapters. I think she holds the record for the longest post. It must have been 10 pages. To me this indicates she was being herself and proud to be herself.

You have 22 Napergatians posting between 5-12 times each on one thread. That really should tell you they were using their same handle to blog that many times with the same handle.

The rest of Napergatians blogged more than twice with a few blogging only once. I really see no pattern, Original Joe. I simply see randomness that has no explanation other than it was random as occurs in the real world.

Keep in mind Host Ted and Moderator Jim at the time indicated that they could track bloggers using multiple handles. They let it be known that bloggers who used multiple handles would be called out.
A handful of Napergatians were called out for using multiple handles. Later it turns out those 4 bloggers had visited the same Dunkin Donuts in Spring Green that assigned them the same IP. A well know hang out for many Napergatians since Huntington Estates and Pembroke Commons are loaded with Napergatians. Remember these subdivisions teamed up with the Napergate Man and his liquor battle flock of Napergatians to make a larger group and present a very strong and united block that appeared at the City Council meetings to fight a shopping center that was to be built inside their subdivisions. They also had residents from many other nearby subdivisions join their ranks. They were able to overflow council chambers a few times and got major concessions from the city council. Instead of a gas station or shopping center, they got 11 homes and a day care center. At the end of 7 or 8 council sessions and some fierce battles that included Napergate ads, rallies and demonstrations, they were able to stop the shopping center/gas station development in the midst of their subdivisions.

That is just a little history Joe since you were working very hard at that time. While Napergatians could not possibly have fabricated their numbers when they attended city council meetings, they could fabricate their numbers on this blog site if they wanted to. But of course they would be caught through the IP system which was reviewed by Host Ted and Moderator Jim in those times.

I have to believe these 2 subdivision alone have 500 hard core Napergatians. They are established subdivisions with little turnover. I suspect most of those 500 Napergatians are still alive and some are bloggin with us. I believe there are Napergatians throughout Naperville but not in the density of these 2 subdivisions. Keep in mind this is the Napergate Man's territory as he lives in one of these subdivisions so I am sure he was recruiting while he walked his dog or his kids. Who knows! Or maybe these subdivisions recruited him as they were in need of help to fight city hall. Why not recruit help from a man that just defeated City Hall twice who lives amongst them? I am only speculating as I do not know how it all went down in those days....but it somehow went down and these folks could send a few hundred to demonstrations when they wanted and in fact did!

I really don't know why you are in so much denial Joe that each Napergatian may be a real person. You claim there are similarties amongst them. Well when you have 178 bloggers and maybe 150 are Napergatians, is it possible for each Napergatian to have a very unique style if they are writing in English and using good grammer?
At least each 15 out of 150 would have to have some similarities just by sheer coincidence.

Your research is very interesting, Orignial Joe. I am glad you did it. It proves the Napergatians like to stick to their unique handles. Many of those names you see there, you can see on this thread also. Thus that indicates they use their own handles a year later.

I guess reviewing your research I used my unique handle 8 times on the Napergate Thread and twice on this thread. Do I sound like someone trying to be 10 different people in my 10 posts? I was McFarland in all my posts. Just like most Napergatians were whomever they were in their numerous posts. I take pride in being McFarland and writing as McFarland. And to be honest it does give you a little rise to see your remarks posted. So why would I want to be someone else and miss my little rise. I am sure you know what I am talking about because in the old days, I suspect you lived for your daily rises. Don't be offended, we all get them but of course in different degrees!

I hope your research solves the mystery that has bothered you for a long time.

Since your posts are down from 151 to a few a week, could you possibly now be using multiple handles? Just asking? I know one person thought you were an anonymous since it did sound like you with that word syntax or whatever it is that I also never heard by anyone but you. Are you willing to tell us if that was you, using another handle Original Joe? And if you did what is the big deal, Chris said it is OK and he does not care!

Have a good day, OJ! I guess that did not come out right. You may have to go back to just being Joe since that other blogger only blogged once. But I thank you for your analysis and I think many will find it very informative even though it will be interpreted differenly by the opposing side.

I am just looking for the debates to be civil without any attacks. I have to commend you Joe for being very civil and never attacking anyone. Only their message which is proper. I wish TB and Ken could take a lesson from you. At least TB apologized to AA when he asked him what crime he committed. He showed some class. Let us hope one day Ken can show some class. It is sad when 39 posts on one thread have to do with Ken and his derogatory comments as Blogger Kevin noted. That really is a bit much! And then he turns and blames the whole mess on the Napergate Man who has never blogged with us or said a word about Ken.

His remarks that he is calling the Napergate Man a criminal are not initiated by himself....but as some kind of defense against allegations thrown his way are just not believable. It is very clear that he was the one that initiated the whole mess by calling the Napergate Man a criminal and all the Napergatians did was defend their leader. I can not imagine that the Napergatians would initiate such an exchange accusing the NGM of being a criminal. Makes no sense to most of us. Does it make any sense to you, Original Joe! (I will spell out your handle from now on in order you don't get mixed up with the infamous OJ we all know)

Have a nice day, Original Joe! It was nice chatting with you and exchanging views.

Numbers Game 102 (Advanced Edition)

The 905 comment entry located here:

http://blogs.suburbanchicagonews.com/newsblog/2008/03/napergate_open_forumcontinued.html#comments

Breaks down as follows...

1 A Napergatian
1 A&D
1 ACE IN THE HOLE
1 Always Talking in Circles
1 Andrea
1 Anne
1 Anonymous II
1 Another Anonymous
1 Be my Friend Marilyn
1 Betsy
1 Bogger
1 Charles
1 Cliffton
1 Curious Bystander
1 Debbie
1 Deeback
1 Diana.
1 District 204 Resident
1 Downtown and Anonymous
1 HERE IS WHAT I THINK HAPPENED
1 HERE IS WHAT I THINK HAPPENED.....
1 Herbert
1 Irene
1 Janee
1 Jay
1 Jeanne
1 Joan
1 Laura
1 Lilian
1 Lisha....
1 Margaret
1 Mariette
1 Marshall Applegate III
1 Maureen
1 Mitch
1 Molly
1 NORMA
1 Peggie
1 Portia
1 Quick Answer
1 RANDY
1 RONALD
1 Realtor Ryan
1 Rich Hemp
1 Ringo Starr
1 Roger
1 Ronald
1 Samantha
1 Schaefer
1 Scott
1 Sharon
1 South of 111th
1 Steve
1 Taxpayer
1 Thompson
1 Troy
1 Tyrone
1 Upset In Naperville
1 anonymous and downtown
1 cdl holder
1 does it matter
1 none
2 Adam
2 Amy
2 Anonymous & Downtown
2 Becky
2 Ben
2 Bloger
2 Brad
2 Chris
2 Chuck
2 Claire
2 Colleen
2 Colleen and Connie
2 Connie
2 David
2 Eli Hodapp
2 Elizabeth
2 Ernie
2 Gary
2 Gigi
2 Gina
2 Jessica
2 Joseph
2 Lillian
2 Lisa
2 Lisha
2 Loretta
2 Lucas
2 Marshall Applewhite
2 Marshall Applewhite AKA Doe
2 Marshall Applewhite SR
2 Martin
2 Marybeth
2 Moya
2 Mr Popo
2 Nancy
2 Niemi
2 Nikki
2 Outraged in Naperville
2 Ramos
2 Rebecca
2 Resident of the Meadows Subdivision
2 Rita
2 Rodi
2 Susan
2 Todd
2 Trevor
2 Upset in Naperville
2 Vanessa
2 Walter
3 Bethany
3 Beverly
3 Carrie
3 Cindy
3 Confused in Naperville
3 Eric
3 Gail
3 James
3 Jenny
3 Linda
3 Liquor Man Rick
3 Marty
3 Melissa
3 Ms. Jane Q. Public
3 Paul
3 Quick Question
3 Ralph
3 Robert
3 Rod Randall
3 Sam I Am
3 Sherry
3 Stuart
3 Terri
3 Victoria
4 Blake
4 Caroline
4 Kathleen
4 Kimberly
4 Lynn
4 Tom
4 Wendy
4 mr. quigley
5 Cynthia
5 Ellen
5 June
5 Marshall Applewhite III
5 Nathan
5 Norma
5 Patricia
5 Ryan
5 Sarah
6 Farmsteadman
6 Liebert
6 Marilyn
7 Darlene
7 Huntington Estates Lady
8 Briana
8 Christopher
8 Marshall
8 McFarland
8 Mickie
8 Rachael
8 Virginia
9 Beilen
12 Randy
13 Southwest Naperville Taxpayer
14 Kevin
16 Anonymous and Downtown
23 Jim Lynch
27 Maryann
28 John Q. Public
48 Anonymous
48 RJ
53 Diana
60 T.B.
92 Ken
151 Joe

178 Unique Handles. Again, we don't know how many are from the same physical person.

I lied earlier. I had way more than 70 posts in this thread *blush*

Little numbers game 101

62 comments in this thread.

They break down as such (after filtering out the Sun Editor handle)

1 Adam
1 Another Anonymous
1 Beilen
1 Betsy
1 Christine
1 Did you realize
1 Kevin
1 Linda
1 Martin
1 Maryann
1 McFarland
1 Sharon
1 T.B.
1 Thompson
1 anonymous
1 the way
2 AAA
2 Hey Betsy
2 Irene
3 Cindy
4 The Snide Sniper
4 Web Guy
7 Original Joe
8 Ken
17 Anonymous

Our 62 becomes 25 unique handles.

Of those 25, we don't know how many are truly unique individuals because anyone can post under more than one handle.

Chris,

I was a frequent blogger during earlier times on this blog site. I can verify that Host Ted stated that this blog site had reached 100,000 views per week. If it was not him, it was Moderator Jim. One of them for sure said that, but I believe it was Host Ted.

I tried looking for it in the maze of archived threads but gave up after realizing the amount of work necessary....almost impossible!

I don't see how Anonymous 1 can demand Anonymous 2 find it for him to prove it happened. I think if Anonymous 1 does not believe Anonymous 2 he needs to take the time to disprove him by reading 50,000 pages or more.

If Host Ted had set up a thread to discuss the 100,000 views, that would be a very easy task. He just made that comment while blogging with the bloggers. I had little doubt he was being truthful.

While I agree it is very hard to interpret that number, I do believe it translates into thousands of unique viewers and not only a thousand readers. It would be hard to imagine the readers to be less than the bloggers who were definetly over 1000....possibly 2000 some very busy weeks.

Anonymous and Anonymous,

I can verify that Host Ted made that comment of over 100,000 views at least twice right on this blog site. He was very proud of that accomplishment since he had worked very hard to achieve that milestone at least in his view.

Like many others when I was blogging daily in the old days, I noticed him working 18 hour days.

There is little doubt in my mind that in the good days that posts per week exceeded 1000 easily. Our old friend Joe could bang 50 posts by himself in some weeks when he was in the mood.

I do think Napegatian Anonymous makes more sense than Opposing Anonymous based on number of posts per week.

Most of these high volume threads obtain most of their posts in the first week while on the Main Page. They can easily achieve 500 posts in one week such as the School District 689 post thread or Napergate 905 post thread. Those alone could create a 1000 in one week. But you always have an additioal 8 threads on the Main Page generating additional posts for the week. And you have archived threads also generating additional posts.

I have little doubt that 1000-2000 posts per week on ALL THREADS were being obtained weekly during the peak blogging period.

The other Anonymous's analysis is very flawed. Napergate Anonymous posts proved that rather easily.

Chris,

Maybe one day Web Advertising will generate more for the Sun than print advertising. Look at how much money Google has made from Web advertising. At one point its stock exceeded 700 dollars per share.

It is just a matter of getting the expertise in place....but everything is easier said than done. We all know that from our blogging experiences.

Original Joe,

I pretty much agree with your post. There was a time when you posted hundreds of times but there was a time when you hardly posted at all. Most posters were not posting nearly as much as you and you were known as the #1 poster. You could say you were an exception of sorts.

More importantly, it seems like you have seen this 100,000 view per week number that I claim was posted by Host Ted.

We have a poster here disputing that it was ever posted. I hope you can confirm it was posted.

I am not claiming I know how to interpret it. I don't think anyone can unless they are on the inside. The only question is if you or someone else recalls seeing the 100,000 view comment as I did.

Again, I also would love to see each poster tied to an IP number.
All sides agree that would be a good thing to bring law and order and proper recognition to numbers on each side of an issue. Unfortunately, the Sun does not agree with us and does not want to post IP numbers by our handles.

I think most Napergatians that I have talked to would also like to see IP numbers posted as this blog site tends to get out of control at times.

I wish the Sun would reconsider!

__________________________________________________________________

PS. One thing I noticed is that bloggers change from time to time. They can be on for a month and off for a month. Some bloggers only come on once or twice and we never see them again. Based on that, many thousands of Napervillians could have been on this blog site in the last 2 years and got a little flavor of it. Maybe influenced by something they read. Only time will tell how effective it is. My suspician is print is losing effectiveness gradually while the internet edition and the blog site are gaining gradually.

Maybe Host Christopher can shed some light for us! I believe he is the new night Host!

By Web Guy on December 1, 2008 3:18 PM
Regardless, the argument could be settled by the admins here looking at the UNIQUE hits, not TOTAL hits. Until then your analysis is just as valid as mine, page impressions are completely meaningless. There's 1000 different ways we could slice the pie to come up with 100,000 views a week, rationalize your "grassroots movement" however you'd like.

==================================================================

Web Master,

This is your prior post which made sense. It pretty much stated let's agree to disagree since your analysis is as flawed as mine.No one attacked you. I liked your response and accepted it.

Now you post again rambling and ranting for no reason. No one attacked you personally. I just disagreed with your flawed analysis and you pretty much agreed with me that your analysis was flawed and based on guesswork and assumptions.

It seems like you took a nap, woke up and changed your mind. I accepted your earlier post as making sense. I did not start an argument with you.

You are just coming out of nowhere ranting and raving that we are suddenly high schools kids and being speculative.

I think we both agreed we were speculating since neither of us had the data in front of us. I respected what you said and moved on.

Please reread your last post. It really contradicts your earlier post and suddenly in your hallucinatory mind you imagine you are under attack. Maybe you took it hard that a layman could stand up to a Web Master, debate him, challenge him and get him to agree to disagree.

It seems like you just suddenly had a problem with your own earlier post. Maybe you regret saying what you stated. But you made a lot of sense the first time and were very professional.

The second time it seems like you are looking for a fight. Sorry, but I am not going to give you the fight you are looking for.

Let us just agree to disagree and move on. You were right the first time. Don't start second guessing yourself!

Hey Anonymous,

I answered your question on how I come up with 1000-2000 posts. It is right above your last post but was not posted in time for you to see it.

I read these blog sites obviously. A few or several months ago, I recall Host Ted stating on one of these threads that this blog site finally achieved 100,000 views per week.

I have no clue in what post or which thread he said it. Everything that has been written on this blog site is the size of several encylopedias. I am not even going to attempt to find it not because it is not there but because my time is valuable and it could take hours if not days to locate such a comment.

You claim you did a search and did not find it. The reason you did not find it is you did not do a thorough search that would really require reading the entire blog site that would take several days if not weeks. You did not do that so you did not do a proper search.

I suggested Old Joe or TB to verify because you would be more likely to believe them than a Napergatian. For the most part they are honest individuals and will tell us if they remember or don't remember. BUT I am 100% sure that Host Ted stated that this blog site hit 100,000 views per week. I don't see what I would have to gain by lying or making up such a number.

I have no doubts he said it. He works at NCC. Call him and he will verify. I am sure he will remember what he posted.

You should be honest and admit you did not do a search that could find this statement as it would be impossible not knowing what thread it was in or what time period it was made. Did you for example read the Napergate 905 posts in that one thread to make sure it was not there? Did you read the District 204 689 posts to make sure it was not there? Of course not! So how could you claim you did a search...that is nonsense and goes to your credibility.

While there are threads/topics that received large posting counts in a short amount of time; if one was to actually read them they would see that a very few number of people generated MOST of the posts in those threads. There were some where I had 60-70+ alone in one topic. That does not mean we had 60-70 different people posting and participating... it was ONE GUY.. ME.

The 100K number was an unverified raw line count number and what web-guy is saying is mostly correct. His speculation about a random surfer's habits once they get to the site are simply that but the base truth remains.. much fewer individual people each account for very large numbers of the traffic and web hits.

What matters are unique IP addresses the web requests came from. That gets you a much 'truer' number than raw web hits. This was another reason I made the suggestion to the Sun people. It helps point out people posting under duplicate handles and can help be a tool to track just how many people are really participating on here.

Funny numbers? What funny numbers? Anonymous @ December 1, 2008 5:00 PM, how many online communities do you run that you're able to draw this seemingly endless wealth of knowledge on how user on the internet behave?

I see what you people are saying with these people driving people away from the site. I come here to post based on my experience with working as a web server administrator and am attacked by random anonymous posters who seem to stop at nothing to prove that they are right all based on speculation and a vague number a moderator posted.

What's it like being an arm chair expert on absolutely everything? I'm starting to think some highschool debate teacher gave their students an assignment to go start nonsensical arguments on the Potluck as practice for an upcoming meet. No other scenarios I can come up with make sense to where you people all come from.

You don't really act like this in real life too, do you?

Anonymous on December 1, 2008 5:00 PM

I'll just take that as a long winded reason why you won't actually offer any proof of your claim. Remember, YOU were the one who claimed that they could EASILY find 2000 posts per week:

Anonymous on December 1, 2008 11:45 AM
Anonymous, You could easily find 2000 posts per week if you did your homework

And by the way, I only counted the weeks while they were actively being responded and commented on. There had to be at least 15 posts in a week for me to include it in my calculation. Can you at least show us one week (by dates) where there were at least 2000 posts?

Face it anonymous, you are simply wrong (or at least mistaken) in your claim that 2000 posts per week are easy to find. If it was so easy why is it your responses continue getting longer and more convoluted as I point out your errors?

I'll also await you, or anyone's, response about 100,000 views. I did a search and could not find it anywhere. It is amusing that you ask for Joe and TB to help - hopefully they will be willing to help out a Napergatian. Again (for the 3rd time) I started out not doubting the number, but given the fact no one can find it I am beginning to.

Anonymous,

Here is where your analysis fails using the 905 post Napergate Thread as an example that you say ran 10 weeks and contributed 90 per week alone, more than your orignial estimate of 77 posts per week or some number you mentioned in an earlier post.

The Sun at the time was usually running 10 threads per week on the Main Page. As they got older, they were put in the archives where bloggers could still post and new threads were put on the Main Page to replace them

Thus the Sun ran 99 other threads during that 10 week period besides this Napergate thread.

If each averaged only 200 posts the 99 threads over 10 weeks would have a grand total of 19,800 posts. Tack on the Napergate Thread of 900 and you get 20,700 posts over 10 weeks. If you divide that by 10 weeks, you get 2,070 posts per week which is more than my estimate of 1000-2000 posts per week. In a prior post, I showed many threads at the peak were getting between 300-700 posts but I chose an average only 200 posts because many threads did much less. Again, I am speaking of a time when this blog site was running on 8 cylinders and not right now when it is only running on a few cylinders.

That really is the proper way to calculate if you are going to extend the life of a thread to the very last blogger who archived 3 months later when it had been removed long ago from the Main Page.

Anonymous,

Host Ted made this statement about 100,000 views right on this blog site. I am sure I am not the only blogger who read it. It could be anywhere inside of any thread. Do you expect me to read for example 905 posts on the Napergate Thread if it is there.

There are some regulars here like Original Joe or TB who have good memories and may recall seeing this number as I did.

I don't see how you could have possibly done your homework if I found a dozen posts higher than your highest posts just for one school district.

Your method is very flawed. Most of the posts come in the first week while a thread is on the Main Page. So a thread that may have
689 may get as many as 500 posts in the first week. That would easily prove what I said while similarly disproving what you said. Posts continue to trickle in many weeks after a thread is off the Main Page. So you can not take such a thread and divide by 6 to see how many posts came in a week and then divide by 6.

In order for you to do that you would have to take all the threads that were posted in a 6 week period and divide by 6. Not just the 10 on one Main Page. I think your analysis is also flawed because it does not take into account that bloggers continue to blog while a thread is archived.

If you look at that District 204 thread with 689 posts, you will see that about 500 posts came from the first week. So there from one post you have your 500 posts. If a strong Napergate Thread or District 203 thread ran the same week, that could easily add another 500-1000 posts. And then you have 7 more threads that could easily generate another 500 threads.

Keep in mind I was refering to a period when the Sun Blog site was at its peak. At the time you have 2 moderators working it heavily and updating almost instantly. When you operate like that getting 1000-2000 posts is attainable and actually happened a few or several times.

When a blog site is ignored for a while as when Host Ted left it will collapse quickly. If you only update it once a day, it may as well be Letters to the Editor instead of an instantaneous blog site.

Anyway, you can try to use funny math to confuse bloggers as did the Web Guy. But in reality when you look at these big number threads, you will see the big numbers all came from the first week with 20% or 30% coming later.

I did look at the dates and interpreted them properly. You also looked at the dates but interpreted wrongfully forgetting that you were counting weeks when posts were only trickling in because the thread had long been archived.

You have yet to explain how you missed all the high number posts that I had to point out to you. Coming up with numbers like 77 posters per week just shows how flawed your analysis really is. You don't even have to do research or math to know you were wrong. Observation indicates you are wrong. Let us give the Naperville Sun credit for running an excellent site and I am sure the new editors will eventually have it rockin like the old editors did before Jim Lynch departed the Naperville Sun. That was the real blow to this site from which the Sun has not yet recovered. Host Ted was just left with too much work to be able to update this blog site frequently. Plus he had burned out after working a few weeks of 18 hour days.

Anonymous on December 1, 2008 4:07 PM

Anonymous, see my previous post. Again you did not give any dates along with your citations, but you probably sent it before reading my response.

Again to clarify my point, you cite the Napergate thread:

Napergate Open Forum....Continued
By Naperville Sun editorson March 11, 2008 11:47 AM | Permalink | Comments (905) | TrackBacks (0)

This thread ran for 10 weeks (average of 90 posts per week). 905 is a great total, but it is for a 10 week period (March 11 - May 19). I looked at all the weeks with all the topics, and have yet to find a week that was close to 2000 as you indicated would be EASY to do.

How will you vote on D203's referendum?
By Naperville Sun editorson December 19, 2007 12:02 AM | Permalink | Comments (526) | TrackBacks (0)

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Napergate Open Forum....Continued
By Naperville Sun editorson March 11, 2008 11:47 AM | Permalink | Comments (905) | TrackBacks (0)

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Napergate man unmasked
By Naperville Sun editorson February 26, 2008 12:48 PM | Permalink | Comments (405) | TrackBacks (0)

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Continue reading Napergate man unmasked. Downtown parking: eateries overtaxed for library deck?
By Naperville Sun editorson February 9, 2008 11:09 AM | Permalink | Comments (209) | TrackBacks (0)

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Continue reading Napergate continues. Remember him? Revisiting the Napergate man
By Naperville Sun editorson January 18, 2008 4:12 PM | Permalink | Comments (269) | TrackBacks (0)

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Anonymous,

Here are a few more threads for you from the District 203 and Napergate Archives. These threads many times were running simultaneously with the busy District 204 threads. Factor in another 7 threads some busy and some slow and you easily get the 1000 to 2000 posts per week Napergatians claimed. And if you have this many posts it is hard to believe Web Guy who gave us funny numbers and tried to shrink 100,000 views per week to only 1000 viewers per week or a number less than actual posters. Almost an impossibility!!!

It just seems these city supporters are hoping the message of the Napergatians does not spread throughout town. First, they attacked the Napergatians and now they are gently attacking the Naperville Sun Blog by claiming its power is exaggerated and it is pretty much ineffective.

My suspician is if they really felt that way they would not be here blogging try to convince us this blog site we use has no effect on the Naperville resident and taxpayer and will probably not reach 99% of the residents. Well, if that is not an exaggeration, I don't know what is.

It is nice to able to expose some of the propaganda pro-city supporters are spreading by digging right into the Naperville Sun Archives. I am glad the Sun saved them. I guess we were able to prove the Sun critics as well as the Napergate critics both wrong.

I sense that the Sun is being gently attacked because it has taken a larger role as a Watchdog Newspaper and that has infuriated those in power who like to operate in secret as opposed to in transparency while enriching themselves with hard earned taxpayer money. The truth will eventually come out as it finally did in the Napergate Man case many years later. We just need to keep plugging along and blogging and respond to our critics whomever they may be without counter-attacking them!

Anonymous on December 1, 2008 2:20 PM

Good job Anonymous, I commend you. I seem to recall a long thread where Napergatians were criticizing the Sun for placing items in archives. They were unable or unwilling to find them - you are proving to be the outlier of your group.

Of course there is a slight problem as you will see. You made a specific claim:

Anonymous on December 1, 2008 11:45 AM
Anonymous, You could easily find 2000 posts per week if you did your homework.

I challenged your claim and you have now come back with specific sources - impressive. What you fail to mention is that the threads you cite give totals for that particular topics ENTIRE posting count, not a count per week. You need to open each and divide the total by the number of weeks it represents. For example your referenced thread: Sound off on 204 Board boundaries meeting, it has an impressive 464 posting total, but is over a 6 week period: Feb 20 - Mar 31 (weekly average of 77). Yet another you reference: Metea critics seek to block HS construction, has a total of 689 posts over a 3 week period (weekly average of 229). Both impressive totals, but fall short of your claim. You failed to look at the dates in your analysis. I took the liberty of doing this by adding up ALL threads (not just Napergate, or school district) and have yet to find any week that comes close to 2000.

I'll give you kudos for trying, and the totals are impressive, but fall short of your claim that you could easily find 2000 posts per week if I did my homework.

You also conveniently left out a response to the following question I posed: I don't dispute the 100,000 viewing number you cite, I'm wondering just where this is printed? Did you speak to Ted directly, or is it in the archives? Please let us know how to confirm your assertion?

You seemed to take issue with Web Guy, but you haven't yet shown any proof of Ted's statement about 100,000 views. Again, I'm not saying he didn't say it, I just can't find it anywhere.

Regardless, the argument could be settled by the admins here looking at the UNIQUE hits, not TOTAL hits. Until then your analysis is just as valid as mine, page impressions are completely meaningless. There's 1000 different ways we could slice the pie to come up with 100,000 views a week, rationalize your "grassroots movement" however you'd like.

Web Guy,

You made some very faulty assumptions.

1.That everyone that goes on here visits every thread. Most people only visit threads that concern them. Napergatians don't even blog on over half of the threads for example.

2.It is doubtful more than a handful of bloggers would check this site 4 times a day. You assumed in your analysis everyone does.

3.Many bloggers are different from week to week thus if the Napergatians are trying to influence they can influence a few thousand viewers each week. If you multiply that by 2 years they may have reached everyone who reads the Naperville Sun online.

4.Even if you only influence 10% of the residents from this blog site, those 10% tell another 10% who together than tell 20% who than tell 40%. The word gets around. Grassroots movements start that way. The Napergatians are known to once had a few strong grass roots movement.

5. You really have no basis for your assumptions and just pulled them out of thin air.

6.I did go back and review posts per week and they were much higher than one poster thought. My prior post should be about it.

7.Finally, if you are correct that there are only 1000 viewers a week, you are stating that all viewers are posting. Most viewers do not post. Just like most readers in the Naperville Sun don't write letters to the editors.

In conclusion, for a Web Guy, you analysis is very flawed. By the way I am not a Web Guy...just a guy with a lot of Common Sense!

Metea critics seek to block HS construction
By Naperville Sun editorson April 20, 2008 6:00 AM | Permalink | Comments (689) | TrackBacks (0) It's official: D204 parents sue school board

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By Naperville Sun editorson March 9, 2008 6:00 AM | Permalink | Comments (465) | TrackBacks (0)

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Sound off on 204 Board boundaries meeting
By Naperville Sun editorson February 20, 2008 6:00 AM | Permalink | Comments (464) | TrackBacks (0)

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D204 land deal for 3rd HS is off
By Naperville Sun editorson April 10, 2008 5:20 PM | Permalink | Comments (440) | TrackBacks (0)

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Salvation for D204's third HS site?
By Naperville Sun editorson April 13, 2008 5:00 AM | Permalink | Comments (381) | TrackBacks (0)

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Mediation fails, Brach-Brodie toll mounts
By Naperville Sun editorson May 14, 2008 4:32 AM | Permalink | Comments (329) | TrackBacks (0)

___________________________________________________________________

Anonymous,

I posted a few threads I found in the Naperville Sun Archives that show the Napergatians are more credible than you. I found at least a dozen threads with more posts than your highest regarding District 204. I posted 6 for you to look at. Simply copied and pasted so you can not dispute.

The above are District 204. District 203 has similar posts. The Napergate Man had many high post threads with one at 906. All these together and many others put this blog site in the category of 1000-2000 posts per week that you are now disputing with erroneous numbers taking a stab at the credibility of the Napergate Nation.

I think what many folks are learning on this blog site are that the Napergatians are credible and those who attack them are full of hot air and rhetoric.

Let us see if you will apologize to the Napergate Nations for accusing them of exaggerating.

I will go ahead and post some high numbers from District 203 to help you understand where those estimates came from and to make it clear they are legitmate estimates.

The 100,000 view figure is misleading, page views are an absolutely terrible way to gauge traffic on a web site- Here's why:

Currently on the Potluck page there are 9 stories, assuming you don't post any comments and instead are just lurking or checking back on threads, that's 19 page views total. Your first page view comes in loading the site, then nine page views come from clicking the comments link, and nine more come from clicking to get back to the main story listing. So let's say your average Potluck user checks in the morning when they read their news, a couple times when they're bored at lunch or at work, and then later that evening when they get home. That's not an unreasonable amount of activity, and would only take a few minutes to read the latest comments.

For this user, that's 76 page views in one day. So for 100,000 views a week (Which I think is kind of high, but those are the numbers someone posted so we'll go with them I suppose.) and not taking in to account power users at all like people interested in the Napergate phenomena who probably spend all day refreshing for the latest comments, that's barely over 1000 people, or 0.6% of Naperville actually viewing this site...

Taking this in to account, I'm not entirely sure how influential the Napergate people who post here actually are. Even assuming people are half as active on this site as I propose, that's still barely 1% of the population of Naperville... and how many of that 1% are registered voters, read the massive diatribes of conspiracy theories, or even care enough to get involved?

I'm not trying to belittle the efforts of anyone here, but a bit of a reality check is in order for you "bloggers" here who think you're influencing the opinion of the general public of Naperville by posting here.

Anonymous on December 1, 2008 11:45 AM
Anonymous,

You could easily find 2000 posts per week if you did your homework.
It had nothing to do with the Napergatians.

It was mostly due to the School District 204 and the boundary lines.
A thread would be put up every other day and would have 500 posts or more in days.

The 100,000 view number came straight from former Host Ted.

So what credibility do you have.

_________________________________________________

Care to try again, Anonymous?

The 5 most heavily trafficked threads regarding the D204 boundaries (starting dates May 19, May 25, May 29, June 4, June 9) have a total of 916 entries combined (avg. of 70 per week)!! The largest being 247 posts on the D204 Breaks ground on new Metea Valley topic (85 per week!). Far from the 500 posts you claim - so let's talk about credibility huh?

I don't dispute the 100,000 viewing number you cite, I'm wondering just where this is printed? Did you speak to Ted directly, or is it in the archives? Please let us know how to confirm your assertion?

The archives are fascinating to read - it was here that I learned the Napergate history. The Napergate man performed a wonderful service to the city, and what the city did to him was reprehensible. Unfortunately he is used now as a threat by many in your group, "just wait until he gets involved again", "just wait until he runs more ads", "you better watch out if he comes out of retirement". The Sun tried to speak with him many times, and according to Ted, he refused all requests!

Naperville Sun Editors,

I agree that the Meteea Valley was the busiest time. Those Napergate Threads that registered up to 900 posts were also taking place at the same time.

I think what bloggers were estimating were 2000 blogs per week and not per DAY as you may have misunderstood based on your post.

I think 1000-2000 posts per week during that time is realistic. Jim and Ted were heavily involved with the bloggers posting frequently and updating almost instantly. I believe that is what fueled the great numbers.

I don't think they would have claimed 100,000 views per week unless that number was reached. 100,000 views does not means 100,000 people viewing. It could simply means 20,000 people viewing 5 times each per week. Or 10,000 people viewing 10 times each week.

Even having only 10,000 or 20,000 readers on this blog site is very significant. The Napergatians know they can use this blog site to influence voters and that is what they are trying to do.

The oppostion knows what they are up to and are simply trying to discredit them with name calling and attacking their leader by calling him a criminal.

I see people seeing through all this nonsense with the Napergatians eventually getting their message of lesser government waste and lower taxes across to the masses before they enter the voting booth.

Anonymous,

You could easily find 2000 posts per week if you did your homework.
It had nothing to do with the Napergatians.

It was mostly due to the School District 204 and the boundary lines.
A thread would be put up every other day and would have 500 posts or more in days.

The 100,000 view number came straight from former Host Ted.

So what credibility do you have.

Most people that practice proper grammar and English will have similar sentence structure, syntax and grammer.

The Napergatians appear to be a well educated group. They take everything seriously including posting in proper English.

While I can't be certain you sound very much like the Original Joe.

The only person who has ever used the word syntax before was the Original Joe. Speculation can go both ways. Only the Naperville Sun knows the truth since they have all the IP numbers.

I think all of us would like to see IP numbers posted by the name especially Napergatians as they know their true numbers.

Another Anonymous on November 29, 2008 10:10 AM

I also think Naperville Editors have to participate. When this blog site was registering 100,000 views and over 2000 posts per week, both Mr. Jim Lynch and Mr. Ted Slowick were very actively participating with the bloggers. Bloggers would much rather be blogging with true editors than self appointed moderators like Ken and TB!

Cindy on November 30, 2008 12:20 AM
By Original Joe on November 29, 2008 8:38 PM
The only change I would suggest for this site is to start posting the ip address of each poster next to their handle.

Original Joe,
I think that is a great idea. I always felt Fireman Sam suddenly became a confused citizen who called himself "Confused." It was just a bit to obvious. I believe if the Sun checked those 2 ip numbers they would find they were identical and the same person was blogging under 2 handles to regain his credibility after losing it.

Martin on November 30, 2008 12:39 PM
By Original Joe on November 29, 2008 8:38 PM
The only change I would suggest for this site is to start posting the ip address of each poster next to their handle.

I think this is a great idea. It seems to me a few fire fighters are posting under so many different handles in an attempt to portray an image that all fire fighters agree with them and are not willing to make any sacrifices to help the City of Naperville balance the budget.

IP checks were done on the Napergatians to verify their large numbers by both Host Ted and Moderator Jim. Except for a few bloggin together at a Dunkin Donuts, they were all discovered to have unique IP numbers.

It is time that a check is done on these city supporters who are trying to portray that they are a larger group than they really are by changing their handles from post to post.

From what I can see most Napervillians and Napergatians continue using the same handle at all times for very long periods of time.

Irene on November 30, 2008 11:53 PM
Chris Magee,

I wish they would not respond and lower themselves to the handful of city supporters who change their handles day by day.

I would like to see the Sun monitor IP numbers to make sure some of these city supporters stick with the same identity. It was very interesting to see Fireman Sam say he had enough and would no longer blog and suddenly reincarnate himself as "Confused." One needs to continue to battle under the same name. That is what I like about the Napergatians. They have been battling mostly using their first names for over 2 years. They stick to their guns.

Naperville Sun editors on December 1, 2008 12:20 AM
Sorry for the ambiguity. My full name is Christopher. As far as the IP numbers go, I don't see it as our responsibility to make sure people keep the same name. They can change if they want to and that's completely up to them. If people want to establish an identity on here then they'll stick to one, and if they don't, they won't. It's up to them.

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Hi Christopher,
Welcome to the fray. I posted some of the comments from this thread to illustrate a point as to why this IP issue is important. Apparently previous editors Jim and Ted searched IP addresses and noted that "some" of them were identical. The Napergate postings slowed down dramatically after this revelation, then someone commented that some of them get together and blog at a local Dunkin Donuts - ok whatever!

Now we see comments from AA above who indicate that there had been 100,000 views and 2,000 posts per week back in the day. I searched the archives and noted that a Napergate thread that ran from March 11 to May 19th 2008 (~10 wks) had 905 posts - and this was the most active thread. Perhaps one of the Napergatians can point me in the correct archive location to verify the 2000 posts per week - (hint: even if you add up all combined posts from any week it does not come close to 2000 per week).

I know this is before your time Christopher, but it is being reported as fact by Napergatians that Jim and Ted did this search and confirmed their numbers - in effect using the Sun as their source. I personally could care less if someone uses a different handle each time, but the claim by Napergate Nation (NGN) that the Sun confirmed these numbers is something that I challenge.

How very rich of Napergate Nation to accuse the establishment of the tactic of changing names. It is more than apparent when reading archived threads that many of the NGN who use different names seem to use identical sentence structure, syntax and grammer! What a crazy coincidence?

Of the previous 35 posts on this thread, 7 of them focused on people talking about Ken in one fashion or another. That represents 20% of the posts on this thread. In addition, 6 of them are actual posts by Ken which represents 17% of this thread. Combine those two and 13 of the 35 posts in one fashion or another involve Ken, which is 37% of the posts in this thread. Include my post here and you are at 14 of 36 posts involving Ken (39%). So what does that mean...as much as people complain about Ken they seem to need him to keep threads alive...this isn't the only thread that gets dominated by Ken or people talking about Ken. If there was no Ken, there would be 22 posts on this thread and it probably would have died already.

Honestly, if you don't want to hear what Ken has to say, then don't read his posts. You add fuel to the fire if you continue to read and respond to his posts. Personally, if I start to read a post and it has a negative attack in it, no matter who it is from, I move on to the next post. I have always been an advocate of not using personal attacks on these blogs, but people seem to enjoy using them or at the very least fall into the trap…it doesn’t matter who starts it, just end it! The argument of “well they started it first” sounds like two kids fighting. There are a lot of good debates and good information being distributed on these threads, I say let’s stick to the facts and educated opinions and leave the personal attacks out of it. If more people can do that than we can spend less time talking about people and spend more time trying to solve issues.

Irene, people would take you more seriously if you did not try to twist the truth to make you and your fellow napergatians look innocent. Anyone who has posted here regularly in the last year or so knows exactly who started the name calling and the personal attacks, and who had to be reprimanded several times by the moderators. As I have stated, I am willing to let bygones be bygones, but I cannot tolerate your out and out lies. I am all for a clean, civilized debate, as soon as you and your fellow napergatians do the same.

Ken (Same name as always, as Irene's attacks show)

Chris Magee,

Welcome aboard! I wish you could have identified your gender so we can address you properly. Chris can be a male or female.

I think we would all like to see the personal attacks stop.

What I really see here is Napergatians trying to propose solutions and city insiders resenting any change....they like the status quo that enriches them.

Thus all they can do is call the Napergatians whackos for proposting solutions...really over and over again.

As you stated people can see thru all this. It is apparent that the Napergatians continue to gain strength and numbers. They have always been a very determined group. They will not go away.

Their leader stood steadfast for 10 years against City Hall. He would not go away no matter what the city tried to do. I think the Napergatians get this trait of steadfastness from their leader...it is obvious. They are not going away. They will make a difference. Name calling will not bother them. Name calling is just an indication they are right and other simply can't debate them. That is how I see it.

When one really studies all this name calling one can easily decipher that it is not started by the Napergatians. Unfortunately, they allowed themselves to be drawn into it by responding. I wish they would not respond and lower themselves to the handful of city supporters who change their handles day by day.

I would like to see the Sun monitor IP numbers to make sure some of these city supporters stick with the same identity. It was very interesting to see Fireman Sam say he had enough and would no longer blog and suddenly reincarnate himself as "Confused." One needs to continue to battle under the same name. That is what I like about the Napergatians. They have been battling mostly using their first names for over 2 years. They stick to their guns.

Out of all the city supporters only Original Joe and TB have shown the strength to continue debating under their singular names and take responsibility for what they say. For that, I express my utmost respect.

To All –

I thought the topic of this thread was a stroke of genius on behalf of the new moderator (can you please provide a name for us?) of what was formerly “Ted’s Threads”, but I see by my late entry into this thread that the moderator’s efforts fell on deaf ears. You’re ALL to blame so don’t even think I’m taking sides. It’s disappointing to see that even in this holiday season nobody seems to be able to make a new start.

I’ve always strived to not attack anyone, but have always defended myself. No more. If you want to attack me, have at it. I may not respond, but I won’t counter punch for punch on personal attacks any more. Insults like I recently received from Melissa are not dignified of a response.

But I’m more than willing to debate my positions and opinions. I simply don’t have the time or energy to wade through the crap thrown my way on a daily basis because of your preconceived notions of who or what I am.

To Anon, I think your assertion that this forum fails miserably as a “freedom of expression” vehicle because we’re limited to the threads The Sun puts up misses the point. If you subscribed to The Sun you’d notice that they cover local news and interests first, then national news. If you don’t like it, I’d suggest a more national paper (and forum) such as The Sun-Times or the Trib. The Sun is what it is because it has a local focus.

I hope you all had a Happy Thanksgiving and have a happy holiday season.

T.B.

You think you can get through to the cult members better than I can, Irene? I have been asking for the same thing for months; debates instead of personal attacks. Hope you have better luck.

By the way, since slavery in the U.S. is illegal, no one owns me, so no one can "swap" me.

Why do you editors allow this immature back and forth discourse between people commenting here and on almost every topic I have read here? How does posting these inflammatory comments help any of the issues or questions being raised, especially the "play nice" issue? Allowing personal attacks between people with opposing views to be posted here simply generates further attacks and gets us nowhere. Stop allowing this type of post to go through, and people will see that they must "play nice", especially since you just posted that this would be a requirement of the blog or forum or whatever you want to call it. Right now it looks more like coffee house gossip and accusations that would probably not be made face to face, only with keyboard courage. This is an embarrassing public display of Naperville community nastiness.

Fellow Napergatians,

I think we should make a joint effort to ignore Ken. He obviously is not a normal person. It has become obvious to me that Ken is a self-centered egotisitical maniac who wants us to concentrate on him in order to distract us from our mission.

I urge all Napergatians and Napervillians to just try ignoring him. That is the only thing that will make him go away and get a life.

He mentions he has nothing against the Napergate Man but refers to him as the leader of the cult and reminds us daily that he was arrested for a traffic violation....it does not bother us that our leader was arrested for a traffic violation.....we are fully versed in what caused it and we do not hold it against him.

We have explained this to Ken but he apparently not only lacks comprehension but appears to be a very vindicative person who will take on those who never did anything to him or even know him.

Let us all try to ignore him. I hope my appeal is heard and we can move forward with our stated mission.

Ken, reminds me of an annoying bee that everyone would like to swap. Sooner or later someone in the real world will successfully swap him. It is just a matter of time.

Once again, thank you, Thompson, for proving my point. Nice example of the keyboard rambo personality exhibited by the cult members with the libelous attack on me. Unlike the leader of your cult, I have never been arrested. Want to meet me in person so I know who to sue for libel, Thompson?

There really is nothing comical about this blog site. It is a very serious blog site and should be taken seriously.
____________________________________________________________________

Serious blog site. Ok, whatever you say boss. People would take you more seriously if you went to a city council meeting.

Just because a blog gets 100,000 views doesn't mean that 100,000 people are reading this blog.

Ken,

Linda did illustrate very well that you have no comprehension due to faulty bearings.

Original Joe was just like you......look it how wonderful he is these days!

Do you see any Napergatians disrespecting him? He has earned our respect even though he disagrees with us? We have tons of respect for Mayor Pradel even though we don't see eye to eye with him on many issues.

Your problem Ken is you are an ill mannered individual who must have been raised to be a spoiled brat. You enjoy attacking bloggers. Apparently it gives you a high to attack and be attacked.

No one would miss you if you left to play video war games with children. That is where you attack and get attacked to get your highs.

Not on a serious blog site where we are trying to debate ways to reduce our city budget which translates to our real estate taxes which translates to being able to live in and afford our homes without being evicted due to foreclosure.

What really don't you comprehend, Ken! Are you really that dense!

If your identity was ever revealed, we would probably learn that there were multiple warrants out for your arrest for being a public nuisance and committing disorderly conduct!

By Original Joe on November 29, 2008 8:38 PM
The only change I would suggest for this site is to start posting the ip address of each poster next to their handle.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

I think this is a great idea. It seems to me a few fire fighters are posting under so many different handles in an attempt to portray an image that all fire fighters agree with them and are not willing to make any sacrifices to help the City of Naperville balance the budget.

IP checks were done on the Napergatians to verify their large numbers by both Host Ted and Moderator Jim. Except for a few bloggin together at a Dunkin Donuts, they were all discovered to have unique IP numbers.

It is time that a check is done on these city supporters who are trying to portray that they are a larger group than they really are by changing their handles from post to post.

From what I can see most Napervillians and Napergatians continue using the same handle at all times for very long periods of time.

Thank you, Linda, for perfectly illustrating my point.

While we may be similarly minded, it appears you are small minded, Snide Sniper. Your choice of a handle indicates you still play war games on your computer. Who is going to take you seriously on this blog site!?! Other than small minded bloggers like yourself.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------

By The Snide Sniper on November 30, 2008 8:51 AM
Thank you Betsy - you illustrated my point perfectly.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I think we all agree that Betsy made her point perfectly clear..... including yourself! That is that your are very small minded. It is nice to see you agree with her, Snide Sniper. We are in the real world here and not playing War Video Games or whatever sniping you do in your spare time.

Ken,
It seems like you want the focus on you. There is no need for any blogger to blog as many times per day as you blog. How much does one person have to say unless they have a diarrhea mouth powered by a motor.

The Napergatians do not care to focus on you. They are just trying to keep your filthy mouth in check.

Just like it is not illegal to negotiate higher salaries with the unions, it is not illegal to negotiate lower salaries with the unions. There is nothing illegal about negotiating salaries up or down.

The pension problems is much more difficult because the state dicates the 75% pay-out. But 75% of lesser salaries means less pensions.

Finally, if the situation continues to worsen, the City of Naperville and its citizens have every legal right to file bankruptcy and wipe out the $61.4 million pension deficit. It is a legal right the city has. With the economy as bad as it is, I doubt the police and fire fighters would quit if they lost their pensions. With a starting salary of nearly 60k, average salary of 90k and ending salaries over 120k, there is no where for them to go to get such high salaries in the private corporate world especially with all the layoffs taking place there such as 50,000 employees in Citibank alone. And other public safety employees in other towns are also not walking away from their jobs to create opeings for our public safety employees if they quit over the intolerable pension situation.

Thus we have the upper hand if we choose to deal with this financial mess....we can deal with it legally.....not illegally as you seem to imply, Mr. Ken.

Have you ever read or done some research Ken before you have ever written on this blog site. This blog site is not for entertainment. It is for exchanging valuable information, being educational, and hopefully resulting in solutions to the problems we face in Naperville and in our lives.

Why don't you try to mature, Ken! If you recall at one time the Original Joe was playing the same game you are playing and now he is considered one of the most respected bloggers on this site. He is anti-Napergatian but we respect him because he is tackling the issues and not the Napergatians. That is all we ask of you, Ken!

Thank you Betsy - you illustrated my point perfectly.

To all my napergatian cult fans, it is very simple. Quit focusing on me, quit denying (and therefore constantly bringing up the fact) that the napergate man is a criminal, and most of all, quit acting like illegally cutting police and fire pay and taking away pensions is going to solve the problem. Do what you claim you want me to do by posting solutions that are legal, and can actually be done.

Don't be like Cindy, and whine about other posters. Debate the issues.

By Hey Betsy, on November 29, 2008 6:11 PM
99% of Naperville residents don't blog or read this blog though. There seems to be the same 5-10 people blogging on here. I read mostly just for comedy purposes.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I guess what you are saying is that Host Ted and Moderator Jim lied to us when they told us this site gets 100,000 views per week.

I am sure it is down quite a bit because of mismanagement but to say we have only 5-10 bloggers left is a little ridiculous.

Give the New Editors some time and they will bring it back to the glory days.

There really is nothing comical about this blog site. It is a very serious blog site and should be taken seriously.

By Original Joe on November 29, 2008 8:38 PM
The only change I would suggest for this site is to start posting the ip address of each poster next to their handle.

=================================================================

Original Joe,

I think that is a great idea. I always felt Fireman Sam suddenly became a confused citizen who called himself "Confused." It was just a bit to obvious. I believe if the Sun checked those 2 ip numbers they would find they were identical and the same person was blogging under 2 handles to regain his credibility after losing it.

I have a lot of respect for you Joe for keeping the same handle. When you changed it you notified us your were changing it. I think that is admirable.

I remember Patricia changed her name to Ms. John Q. Public and she also notified us of her name change. Everyone should do that if they change their handle. Otherwise they can not be held liable for what they say. They could regain credibility by being a new person.

I am happy that I have had my same handle for 2 years and intend on keeping it. If someone attacks me, I will defend myself. I am not going to change my handle and run away like Fireman Sam did....I thought that was a little wimpish of him.

The only change I would suggest for this site is to start posting the ip address of each poster next to their handle.

Ken,

You need to get a life and stop whining like a baby on these blogs.

One thing the Naperville Editors should do is limit you to 2 post per day. No one wants to hear your whining day and night. It gets very old, very quickly!

99% of Naperville residents don't blog or read this blog though. There seems to be the same 5-10 people blogging on here. I read mostly just for comedy purposes.

These city supporters and employees need to learn to recognize others. It is shameful how conceited some of them are. It is shameful how not one person in the city has come forward and praised this brave citizen. The Fire Dept. should have issued a press release commending this very brave citizen. Maybe the new Fire Chief will give him a medal of honor for his efforts...he certainly deserves one!
___________________________________________________________________
Hey AA, City Hall was closed Thursday and Friday. And if I recall, in the past, this kind of good citizenship is usually honored at city council meetings. I will bet that those good people get invited to a council meeting and the mayor honors their herosim.

I didn't see you mention any praise for those good people, I only see you ranting that city hall didn't praise them. Nice. Turn someone's tradgedy into a reason to slam others.

By Ken on November 29, 2008 12:00 PM
That's funny, AA. You accuse me of being a self appointed moderator when you and your ilk are the one trying to exercise moderator authority by trying to get me censored or banned. I see that you have quickly caught up with the talking points of your fellow cult members. You go girl!

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Ken,
No one wants to see you censored or banned. I think bloggers want to see you constructivley tackle the issues of our town.

How many times have you repeated yourself and said the Napergate Man is a criminal? OK, we know how you feel.....we respectfully disagree with you. Move on to another topic.

How many time have you repeated yourself and said the Naperatians are a cult or ilk or whatever? Ok, we know how you feel....we respectfully disagree with you. Move on to another topic.

As one blogger said, you sound like a broken record. You sound like your intellect is limited to that of a broken record.

Why don't you draw a plan to bring our budget to balance? Why don't you draw a plan to bring our pension deficit in the black instead of the red.

Then you may be respected. Your entire stay on this blog site has been about attacking bloggers. Can you come up with another agenda?

You even attack the Napergate Man who never attacked you and want us to believe he initiated the attack on you while he never blogged here or even met you! So much nonsense, Ken! Get a life...really....grow up...something!

By The Snide Sniper on November 29, 2008 7:48 AM
However, it appears that almost every topic becomes a forum for the Napergate clan ( I use the term as meaning a group of similar minded people - nothing derogatory)to espouse their rhetoric and vehement view points. Certainly they have the right to their beliefs and should be free to speak their minds - but people - not every event that happens is linked to some great master conspiracy.

===================================================================

Hey Snide Sniper,
The Napergatians only blog on threads concerning the city and its wasteful ways. We don't blog on the school threads, entertainment threads, or whatever other threads the Sun puts up for comment.

You could say 99% of Naperville's population is similarly minded and would like lower taxes instead of higher taxes. The only non-similar minded are the ones benefitting from high taxations and blogging anonymously as if they were ordinary civilian citizens.

What rhetoric or vehement viewpoints do we Napergatians have? Asking the city to curb its waste so we can prevent an 11 million operating budget deficit is vehement? Asking that the pension deficit be elminiated before we the taxpayers have to subsidize it is rhetoric in your opinion?

While we may be similarly minded, it appears you are small minded, Snide Sniper. Your choice of a handle indicates you still play war games on your computer. Who is going to take you seriously on this blog site!?! Other than small minded bloggers like yourself.....

Ken,
What I see here is you have a problem with the majority view which seems to be growing. You have spent a lot of time on these blog sites attacking Napergatians hoping to reduce their numbers.

What I see is an attempt on your part to discredit the Napergatians and decrease their support. What I see happening is the opposite of what you intend to do. Their numbers and supporters appear to be increasing on this blog site.

Many people attacked Barack Obama instead of his message. They said he is a criminal as you continue to say the Napergate Man is a criminal. They accused him of associating with a Vietnan Era 1970s terrorist and said he must be an American terrorist. They accused me with associating with a Palestinian Professor at the Univiversity of Chicago and said he must be a Palestinian terrorist. They accused him of being a fanatical Muslim because his middle name was Hussein.

What good did all that do? The American people saw throught all that, did not believe any of it. and he was elected President of the USA.

It should be obvious to you that most Napervillians do not consider the Napergate Man a criminal because his daughter blew a toll or two whether deliberately or because she was caught in the wrong lane without change. If I recall correctly Blogger Diana found out she paid 99% of her tolls and missed a few in a one year period during a time when I-Pass was not common.

It seems to me you spend so much of your precious time trying to discredit the Napergatians because you believe that the Napergate Man is a criminal and because they are continuing his work and legacy, it must follow that they are all criminals also....even worse...maybe members of some evil cult. What I see is no one is buying your conspiracy theories? Most people think you are completely off track....others have indicated that you may have a few loose bearings upstairs....others indicated you are just on here to get rises and highs....some think you need to visit a shrink!

Whatever you tried to accomplish the last year has not worked. In my opinion it has backfired and you have simply increased support for the Napergatians as McCain increased support for the Democrats with his negativity.

I think it is high time you focus on the issues of importance to our city as the Napergatians are. Give your solutions!

I have not heard one word from you Ken as how you plan to reduce the $61.4 million pension deficit in the P @ F pensions. Not only is this number alarming but what I find even more alarming is that it increased 10 million after the state warned the city last year to begin reducing it and have it completely elmininated by the year 2033.

The fact that city officials took us in the wrong direction after being warned by the state to take us in the right direction, may be a strong indication that many of those who currently holding elected office many not be qualified.

The Napergatians did not participate as a group in the last 3 elections. They did not endorse any candidates. They left the city alone. They left the entrenched establishment alone. Well, the results are apparent when you have no one playing a watch dog role or competing with the establishment.

The Naperville Sun has never been willing to play a watchdog role other than with a few empty words here or there. So far the only person who was able to be a true watchdog on our city and make a true difference was the Napergate Man. The Napergatians are trying to follow suit and I believe given some time they will succeed as the Napergate Man once succeeded.

That's funny, AA. You accuse me of being a self appointed moderator when you and your ilk are the one trying to exercise moderator authority by trying to get me censored or banned. I see that you have quickly caught up with the talking points of your fellow cult members. You go girl!

Naperville Sun Editors,
I have to agree with Anonymous that slowness in approving and posting comments, will bring the deterioration and eventually the death of this blog site.

If posts can't be updated on a continuous basis, I would like to see a structure developed and the bloggers notified what time the blog site would be updated. For example 9am, 12pm, 3pm and 6pm of each day.

No blogger likes to get on frequently only to find out the blog site has not been updated. That is why I have not blogged on much in the last month or so after once being a very frequent blogger.

I also think Naperville Editors have to participate. When this blog site was registering 100,000 views and over 2000 posts per week, both Mr. Jim Lynch and Mr. Ted Slowick were very actively participating with the bloggers. Bloggers would much rather be blogging with true editors than self appointed moderators like Ken and TB!

There has to be some moderation by the Editors. As Anonymous so eloquently stated above I am also "disenchanted with all of the conspiracy theorists ranting about Napergatians... how tired is that argument."

At some point Sun Editors have to realize the Napergatians are proposing solutions to our financial crisis in town. They provide data that is later confirmed by Councilman Bob who is not a Napergatian but a councilman who cares about his city and its future, no different than the Napergatians.

While the Naperville Sun should allow the fools who constantly attack the Napergatians to continue making fools of themselves, it would be nice for the Sun Editors to try to reach out to them in some way. Maybe ask them to propose their own solutions. Maybe ask them to discuss the topic on the threads instead of waitng for the Napergatians to discuss them only to attack them. All of Ken's posts have one theme....that the Napergate Man is a criminal and that his followers are a cult...."how old and tired" could that possibly be.

I don't believe in censorship but I believe the Editors should tell Ken he sounds like a broken record and should try to show some creativity in his posts.

Some of these city supporters think the world revolves around them. Not one of thme gave credit to that brave citizen who saved that little boy in the pond. Not one word of commendation for this unpaid citizen who risked his life to save the children. He should have been the story that day....not the firemen who did their duty and unfortunately failed. Why should they be recognized for doing their duty and failing? They should not be praised or condemned.

These city supporters and employees need to learn to recognize others. It is shameful how conceited some of them are. It is shameful how not one person in the city has come forward and praised this brave citizen. The Fire Dept. should have issued a press release commending this very brave citizen. Maybe the new Fire Chief will give him a medal of honor for his efforts...he certainly deserves one!

At least the Naperville Sun recognized and reported on his heroic effots. I commend the Sun for telling us who the real hero in this tragedy was. I don't want to hear a bunch of firemen bloggers whinning because they had to enter cold water. That is their duty. If they don't want to save people from cold water and burning fires, than they should have chosen another career.

Trying to use the death of a 9 year old girl as a defense againt a call of reduction in starting salaries and pension, is as low as one can go.

And when I speak about firemen I am not speaking about all firemen.....I am only speaking about the few who disguise themselves as civilians or friends on this blog site and attack anyone who dares question their compensation or performance. Nothing can be changed or improved if it is not analyzed or questioned. We need to continue on our current path until we resolve all the problems of our beloved city.

Good luck with making this discussion site more interesting and a positive outlet for reader's viewpoints. There is certainly sufficient topics provided these days with the state of the economy and world in general. However, it appears that almost every topic becomes a forum for the Napergate clan ( I use the term as meaning a group of similar minded people - nothing derogatory)to espouse their rhetoric and vehement view points. Certainly they have the right to their beliefs and should be free to speak their minds - but people - not every event that happens is linked to some great master conspiracy. While I am a relative newcomer to the Naperville area - only a decade now - I have yet to have seen the black helicopters circling at city hall.

Lighten up folks - it's OK to be passionate about your ideas and points of view - but sometimes the rhetoric I see here becomes down right scary - change the words slightly and the emotion being carried in the words becomes very reminiscent of the rhetoric coming from any number of fanatical organizations. The Napergatians make some very good points - but the message is being lost. It is very difficult to make converts when only the all ready converted reads your words.

Thank you, Sun Editors. In the scheme of a newspaper, I understand this is really down there on the list of priorities but I want to express my appreciation for having this area on your site.

For those unhappy with the turn around time or the 'censorship' of topics I suggest googling for Free Bulletin Boards and choose any of the ones out there and start a new 'uncensored' site. After that is set up, post the link in here and tell the hundreds or thousands of people where the new 'promise land' is.

Let's first understand that this tool for expressing personal opinion is neither a blog nor is it a forum.

In the big picture of freedom of expression or right to free speech it suffers terribly. We just went through national elections and not one single topic was posted! The truth is we only get to voice our opinion of topics of the Naperville Sun's choosing, not our own. So while the Sun acts as a huge censor in what can even get posted on this site to get started, it then reserves the right to further censor if contributors "don't play nice" by their rules. The student high school newspaper staff over at NNHS has more journalistic license than contributors to Potluck. It would seem that the Naperville Sun equates itself to a high school principal in determining what topics in Naperville are appropriate for us to discuss. Do any of us really need or want the Naperville Sun to censor us as adults?

To make things even worse the time and attention being spent by the Naperville Sun to monitor and update posts has deteriorated recently. Sometimes it is more than 24 hours before a post shows up... the longest wait usually coincides with the Monday edition of the paper, which is nothing but a joke and a token effort to put out a daily edition. Even on a good day posts are only updated 2-3 times and not even with any regularity... which throws off the entire concept of an open debate because it only occurs in spurts.

Personally I have become disenchanted with how Potluck operates and, in my opinion, this is headed down not up. I've also become disenchanted with all of the conspiracy theorists ranting about Napergatians... how tired is that argument? Hopefully, someone will find a way to tool up a true forum where we can post our thoughts in real time and start new threads of our choosing. Potluck is already dying a slow death... anyone can see that from the declining usage and I am finding fewer and fewer reasons to bother to post myself. Potluck had great potential from the start but the opportunities were never maximized which are a shame, but which have directly contributed to its downfall.

Funny, the post clearly states that they will not censor, and the first response calls for censorship.

It would be nice if there was a way to get everyone to post under the same user name. This would not take away from the anonymity and would make it easier to know who says what. Sometimes posting style and content make it easy to separate the anonymouses, other times not.

Other than that, status quo on the way the board has been run is a good thing.

Happy Thanksgiving...to you to Sun Editors,

I agree with your thread. I think it would be helpful if the Naperville Sun considers not publishing posts that accuse the Napergate Man of being a criminal. I think these kinds of posts inflame many bloggers, become counter-productive and take us off topic.

Using a traffic violation as an excuse to call any citizen a criminal in my opinion is just not appropriate. In the print edition, residents are not referred to as criminals when they receive or even are convicted of traffic violations. Why should the standard be lowered for this blog site?

Criminal is really a term used to describe someone who committed an act that is reprensible and unacceptable to society. Having your license suspended because your vehicle failed emissions 3 times is not the sort of situation residents consider CRIMINAL!

Bloggers should take the high road. Bloggers should also remember they are anonymous regardless of which handle they choose. They should be sensitive before attacking real people discussed on this blog site.

Let us play nice as the Sun is suggesting!

A Happy Thanksgiving to everyone on this blog site and throughout Naperville!