Should young athletes kick out the green thumbs?

Yes! Relocate plots to multiple locations around town. Gardening is a great use for UNDERUTILIZED park land. It doesn't have to be downtown - and so shouldn't be. The radishes, carrots, beans and peas won't know the difference. This "prime" downtown park land should be utilized better.

I think the park district should create more plots in BOTH DuPage River Park and Southwest Community Park. Give the south and west siders a break!

There's more than enough park land to go around - but downtown we need multi-use green fields, that can be used by lots of folks - for sports, festivals, picnicking - not a series of 600 square foot plots dedicated to the use of a single person.

In the same vein, the Von Oven scouts should be relocated to underutilized Seager Park and given proper facilities - running water and hygenic flush toilets. Everyone benefits when we match the best use to the best locations.

I don't think this problem has a solution that will satisfy everyone 100%, but this sounds like a very reasonable accommodation that meets most of the needs of most of the people concerned. NCHS does not lose athletic fields, some people will have shorter drives to their garden plots, and the total number of garden plots will increase. If it's not a "win-win" for everybody, then it is, at worst, a "win-not lose too badly".

I think it is fair to spread the plots around town, especially if there are more as a result.

The only thing I see happening is once the fields are in place, the cries for Sportsman's Park demise will come again, with the rallying cry of "what about the children".

This little charade by 203 was constantly disavowed during the referendum.

Before you start with a contruction project, you make sure you have adequate land. This was raised with District 203. It was a mistake in the 90's to sell the land on Naper Boulevard that would have made an ideal Naperville Central replacement site. They did it to give Diane McGuire an above market raise.

But wait. There are 60 acres west of Benedictine University that would make an ideal Central replacement site. Matea is being built for $80 million (the actual construction costs excluding land and litigation with Brach Brodie). This land could have been purchased (or condemned) for $14 million two years ago (maybe less now that we are in the recssion).

So for $94 million 203 taxpayers could have had a new, modern high school rather than pouring $87 million into a waste. And plenty of land for other activities. In fact, BU's football and baseball stadiums are far superior to those of 203 (and North Central). I would strongly support an extra $7 million for a new school and 30 extra acres, what a deal.

The existing Central campus could then have been destroyed. The site could still be used for education (per the Mitchell restictions) to replace the outdated Washington and Lincoln junior highs. Parents tell me these schools are deplorable.

But all of this would require planning. No planning, higher costs, throwing good money after bad, and trying to cram other governments (the Park District) to change their program. The plans from 2005 assumed they would get the Park District land. It is arrogant to make such assumptions. You should ASK before you ever publicly send such information.

Just say no, let 203 find another solution rather than rewarding their arrogance.

I have a son that plays soccer for Neuqua. We had an away game at St. Charles North but the game was not played at the school. It was at Harvest Hills Park over 3 miles away from the school. Everything worked out just fine infact there were 3 high school games being played there at the same time. There is no reason that Naperville Central can not use Nike Park or any other park. The Golf and Bowling teams all drive or take a bus to practice why not the Soccer or Lacrosse teams. Even if the fields are built they are far enough away that the kids are going to drive anyway, so why not drive to Nike park. The problem here is that Naperville Central has run out of room and should do with what they have or move. Other High Schools have moved like Wheaton Central and Bolingbrook High Schools. The Park District has a program called the Garden Plots and it works,for over 500 families, leave them alone.

The gardens plots should stay. It adds to the diversity and uniqueness of Naperville. Many of the gardens not only grow food
(think organic, think green), but gardeners embelish them with flowers, some giant sunflowers, providing a pleasant view from
West St.. Not every square foot of Napervile needs to be developed. Lets leave some areas as is before they end up overdeveloped,
and abandoned in the future.

Regarding Dan D (Denys) comments.

Dan you never miss an opportunity to slam 203 do you? So now you know all about construction and land costs, Pretty impressive.

I have to say because it's you are making these statements, and knowing your typical disregard for making an honest argument, I doubt both your 80 million and 14 million figures.

If you want to prove them up with links I'd be interested, especially the 14 million land figure. That's $233,000 an acre. pretty cheap as it's comparable to what they are paying out on Eola Rd, and the Maple site in Lisle has to be much more valuable.

Secondly, I remember the total costs for Metea quoted in the 120-14o million range with the land included (which they budgeted 15 million for as I remember). So your 80 million dollar figure is way off. Nice try, but no cigar.

Enough with the garden plots.

This is not a static community. Downtown has changed; neighborhoods have changed; as our community grows, we have to adjust. We aren't putting an end to a program that lets people grow their patty pan squash and zucchini; we're simply adapting to a changing community.

It's not an either/or decision, people! There will still be garden plots, both downtown and in other locations that might be more convenient for some.

And how about the cemetery? Why are we sacrificing terrific land that is used by hundreds, if not thousands of people a year? Surely circumstances have changed since the "lease" of that land.

Anonymous,

Regarding the Cemetery, as I understand it they actually own the land outright, or it was stipulated in the Martiin Mitchell bequest for a town cemetery. They have been letting Central use it till they needed it.

Thom,

There you go again. Shift away from the focus. 203 DID NOT PLAN. AND THEY WANT OTHERS TO FIX THEIR MISTAKES.

Further, you should be aware that everything in my post was communicated to 203. I remember Doug Wilson's reaction vividly. One, never considered. Second, sounded interested. Then he, like the administration, did nothing. Leis did not even know about the vacant land in 203 (this land and Canterra property are available).

Will DuPage Taxpayers Alliance reviewed the 204 costs. They were gold plated. There use to be a cost summary on 204's site. They took it down (they must be embarrassed about their waste).

Remember, 204 has to pay the penalties for the old site since they did not go through with condemnation, they had to pay for new land (and they did it in a panic, paying the church three times what they paid three years earlier for the land without an appraisal (why do you think the church jumped at the opportunity). The 204 total was $124 million. I recall the hard construction at $80 million or so. They had another $10 to $15 million to accelerate construction in 14 months. The rest as I recall was noise, wierd costs.

No matter, the analysis is the same at $94 or $114 million. The $87 million at Central has significant wasted costs due to site constraints and the high costs of rennovation versus building new.

The $14 million was the land price paid by Meier. Go check the public records. At the top of the market without the zoning supportuing the price they paid. Now that they are in financial difficulty and not expanding anywhere particularl Illinois, I think they would be glad to get their money back. And this price for unzoned farm land is comparable to the 204 price that was zoned commercial/industrial (that makes land worth more).

Go ask Leis for his costs analysis, oh, I forgot. He publicly said there was no vacant land in the District of 50 acres or more. Oops!

True to form, this was a Taxpayer Ticket platform. Oh, I know, you ignored every one of our platforms and made up on your own what we stood for.

GOOD BYE!!

Per Thom Higgins

Dan you never miss an opportunity to slam 203 do you?

Response

Again, your vile comments. But for all to observe. As a candidate and community member/taxpayer, I have been VERY CONSISTENT about issues. The entire capital planning process has been flawed and had minefields. Go back through all of the blogs that you love to misquote. I noted that this backdoor land grab was part of the 203 process, it was a footnote on the Central cost plan.

MORE AMUSING. I cite numerous times during the capital process that the Central site is too small. Constant denials from 203, you lead some "truth squad" claiming myself and anyone else who questions 203 should be shot. Now 203 is stating that the site is too small.

AND IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE THIS WAY. If the 203 administration had done a professional job AND had kept both the Board and Public informed, people should be at least comfortable with decisions. The more I thought of the new facade, it is a lower cost alternative than the original masonry front. Did 203 underestimate the costs and we now have a lower cost solution? Are there any implications to the change from masonry? Will we have problems in the future like the "low cost" construction at Steeple Run and Scott School?

And yes Thom, I fund construction. And evaluate school districts for developers, particularly their financial feasibility. So I know a little about construction. I know that Oswego and Hampshire high schools cost approximately $75 million (for 2,500 students). I know that Bolingbrook High School cost $125 million for 3,000 students or 40% more than the other schools per student. The firm that is doing Central has done the higher priced school. Any coincidence?

Lastly, you know the various issues. The same ones come up because they simply have not been addressed. And who suffers, the students. But it does not impact me, I am almost done with the schools. And instead of complaining about deficiencies in the public schools (yes Thom, they could be better) or different philosophies that would have held back my children, I found better alternatives and paid for them. The same happens in New Trier, people send their children to a host of alternative schools even though New Trier is rated the best in the state.

But I think 203 schools should not rest on their laurels. In fact, one of my opponents in the last election said the district would be simply mediocre if it were not for the high performing Asian students. And we have requested the data to verify his comments and as usual, rebuffed. I interpret the refusal to supply the informatoin as meaning this comment is true. Since you are not Asian, that means your child is part of the mediocre group. What happens when the Asians leave for New Trier?_

Dan and Southsider both make great points.

It is disturbing that SD203 has the gall and audacity to keep trying to gobble up all of the land and open space that was set aside for all of the people of Naperville to use. In part we can direct some of the blame to the small minded "city fathers" that were in office back then and approved siting a high school at this location. Let's not forget that all of the land that 203 is trying to gobble up they don't even want to pay one red cent to acquire. Yet this land that was supposed to benefit everyone in Naperville, not just those who live on the east side of town. Is everyone who lives in SD 204 supposed to sit by idly and say nothing about this and at the same time have to pay and pay and pay for all of their school facilities. Why does SD203 think they are entitled to a free ride? If the Martin Mitchell land is going to be divided up for more educational or athletic fields then it long overdue to make an equal amount of this land available to SD 204 for their educational and athletic needs. SD 204 serves just as many, if not more Naperville residents and is just as entitled to access and use of this property as SD 203. Fair is fair.

Gardening is not a high density activity. Sports spectators are. The SD and the NPD need to work together to distribute any additional athletic fields fields that may be needed in other existing parks. There are dozens and dozens of parks throughout the city that are underutilized and would be perfect locations for athletic fields. These parks would serve as ideal sites for both practice fields and competition fields.

No one is fooling anyone here. The amount of land needed for athletics is huge and unimproved land around Naperville comes at a premium cost. At the same time most of the existing fields sit empty most of the time. Both 203, 204, and the NPD need to find ways to increase the utilization of existing facilities before turning the shovel on any new facilities. 203, 204, and the NPD need to learn to work together, to share, to cooperate on athletic facilities. They have got to stop looking at their needs in isolation and in terms of what they own or what they need. They need to start looking at athletic fields in terms of community assets and amenities that benefit everyone in our community.

Dan,

OK, so now your claiming D203 didn't plan, and instead did what? over coffee one morning decided to rebuild Central with out intensive planning or community input? No one, and I mean no one, is gonna buy that whopper.

You can make all the silly claims you want, and do it in CAPS! so we know how important it is, but the fact remains for anyone who follows this blog, or paid attention to your SB candidacy, it's more than apparent that all you are about is attacking public education, on any any topic, with the hope that while it was too late for your $300,000 expense to send your kids to private schools, then at least in the future "Top Republicans" (your words, not mine) can send their kids to private schools and get some of it paid for with vouchers.

This is what it's all about, and your constant whine that D203 didn't plan and that Central was going to be a Taj Mahal (your words again) and that Metea is gold plated, blah, blah, blah.... is getting really old.

As is your putting words into people mouths that hey never said, and pulling facts and figures out of your posterior.

I have "farmed" a garden plot in the past and also will have a student at Naperville Central. I think the park district and District 203 are doing a great job in getting feedback from the community. I see no problem in taking some of the space for fields and moving some plots to other portions of Naperville. I think the Park District should give priority registration at the West Street plots for Senior citizens. Having spent many hours at the site, I can attest to what a great physical and social activity this is for the Seniors in our community.

Has district 203 or the park district tried to work with the cemetery to find other space for their expansion? It really is ashame that this precious land will be wasted on the dead instead of used for the living. Can the community do anything to prevent this valuable land to be used as a cemetery?

By Dan D
"The site could still be used for education (per the Mitchell restictions) to replace the outdated Washington and Lincoln junior highs. Parents tell me these schools are deplorable"
----------------------------------------------------------
I have a student at Lincoln Junior High. While the school is not pretty from the outside, it is nice and bright and clean on the inside. The principal is great, the teachers are great and the students are doing very well there. "Deplorable" does not describe our school but much better describes your recent post.

Folks, we have a new winner in the Dan Denys illogical statement contest.

Since you are not Asian, that means your child is part of the mediocre group.

Wow, just wow, so my child is mediocre because we are not Asian, and even worse, all non Asian kids are mediocre? Are you really willing to claim that only Asians excel academically? How very ignorant and racist of you. You might want to look at the names of the students who aced the ACT, or are national merit scholars, before you make that claim.

This comment by you is incredibly insensitive, and simply incorrect. To ignore the academic achievement of all students of all colors and nationalities, strikes me as supremely Un-American. It is perhaps the most disgraceful statement you have made regarding education. What are you telling non Asian parents and students? They are inferior? If Asians are so much academically superior how come your treasured Benet isn't all Asian?

Allow me to offer my complete and utter revulsion at you statement.

Has anyone looked at how few athletes will use these 3 Soccer Fields. Naperville Central has 5 Boys Soccer teams with about 20 kids on each team. Freshman A & B, Soph, JV & Varsity. The Varsity will play and practice on nicer fields closer to the school so that leaves 80 kids for these fields. The season started on August 13th and for all but the Varsity ended last week. That is exactly a 2 month long season. The Girls will repeat this again in the spring for 2 more months,so 80 more kids. The Lacrosse team can practice on the Football field once they put the artificial turf down. A total of 160 students will displace 226 garden plots and the 226 families that use them. The school at the end of the season will gather up all the nets and chain them together so that they won't fall on some kid that wants to hang on them. So nobody will use the fields for 8 months of the year. To top it off the Park Dist. and D203 want to throw $750,000.00 at the project. 160 kids in a town of 145,000 people is not worth $750,000 and the loss of the garden plots.

Anonymous.

Thanks for reminding me about Denys silly statement about Lincoln and Washington. In case you are unaware, Dan Denys ran under the Taxpayers Ticket for the SB in 2007 and this kind of fabrications is his specialty.

I have a child at Washington and just like Lincoln it is in excellent shape. Denys throws out these kind of statements constantly trying to bamboozle people who don't know better as a way to damage the credibility of the district.

Sad, sad, sad.......

Three responses to Dan D.

1) So Lincoln Junior High is "deplorable," is it? Really? Do you have students who go there? Mine did (as early as last year). It's a great, great school. My daughters loved it, I found the teachers by and large terrific, and the education my children received as superb. What, exactly, is your problem with it?

2) What is it with you and Davitt and your preoccupation (some would say racist focus) on Asian students in D203? To be honest, it's really creepy and peculiar.

3) Dan also says that he is "almost done with the schools." Great. Any way we can move you along?

Let's hold on just a minute and remember that neither SD203 or the Park District own any of the land they want to carve up with each other.

In fact, to the best of my knowledge the only land that SD 203 actually owns related to Central is the one soccer field north of Von Oven. If anyone knows differently, share what you know. Maybe it is time for the City of Naperville to give the high school the boot. Let the taxpayers of SD 203 find another site and pay for it out of their own pockets just like the taxpayers in SD 204 have done with each and every school site in their district. Personally I am convinced that we are going to see constant nibbling away at the edges, year after year, until Naperville Central swallows this entire parcel anyway. This is fundamentally wrong as it was not what this gift intended.

The City of Naperville actually owns all of this land. All of the various entities that use pieces of the property are essentially tenants. The school district and the park district don't get to make side deals. Only the city council can approve this. Edward Hospital does not deserve to get a free ride on any of this public land. This sweetheart deal should have ended the day the hospital went private and was no longer organized as a public hospital.

As for the insensitive statements made earlier with regard to the cemetary... I would hope that Naperville has not grown so aloof and arrogant that we no longer show any honor or respect for our dead. Every community needs space for a cemetery. Try to remember that when this cemetery was first established it was located on what was the edge of town at that time.

I think you are all missing the real point here. Should the school district and the park district be spending almost a million dollars on this right now? If they have almost a million dollars kicking around right now I have to believe that there is something more important than garden plots and soccer fields that needs attention. If not then save the money, invest it (in what??), and use it when something really important presents itself.

TWO SIMPLE COMMENTS

1. The Asian comment is not mine, but one of my opponents in the last election. At a public debate. My comment about Thom's daughter was rhetorical, but I apologize to all of those who were offended. By the way, I was offended at the candidates remark who defends it steadfastly.

2. Again, I did not say that Lincoln and Washington were bad schools, just their physical conditions. And again, my comments were based on comments by parents who regret their children had to attend these schools rather than Kennedy. When I visited them, they looked more worn than Central which I think Thom has called a dump. And these schools need no new work in the next 20 years. Then why are we fixing Central?

Remember, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Mine has been an inadequate job of facilities evaluation. Never waiverd from this stance. So for people in Lincoln, I hope you are set with that building for another 20 years since the District does not have it on their list.

I think the Royce Road location for garden plots is a very bad idea. That whole area down there has been a dumping ground for decades. There were no homes down there for a long time and many people used to dump god knows what down there. There used to be "no dumping" signs there and people would even drive in from Cook County to dump there. Someone should pay to have the soil tested before little kids and seniors start to grow food there or there could be a big lawsuit. Maybe Shawn Collins is available. I know he specializes in these types of contamination cases where powerful interests try to pick on the little people who are powerless.

Not really sure why district 203 is trying to pick on the seniors and others that use the garden plots. There are tons of soccer fields and park district space that goes unused all the time. Brush Hill is just one example, that field isn't used after school by anyone. I think the district could easily make better use of existing facilities but those union types at district 203 can never get enough. By the time they are done, the school will occupy the whole downtown.

Ah yes, the Dan and Thom show, my how we have missed it!

Dan,

Thank you for the apology.

The City of Naperville does not own the land under the NCHS building. It was deeded to the schools in the 1950's when the high school was built. Check it out. The City Clerk has a copy of the deed along with the ordinance.

Why would we need to provide garden plots for nonresidents when land is so valuable for all sorts of activities? Those gardeners south of 75th street would still have plots provided in the two proposed locations. Thus the 325 remaining gardeners north of 75th street could still till the soil at the in town location. Yes, it is a change, but aren't we being bombarded with change as a positive in the current political campaign??
Those who suggested the soccer fields are only used 4 months of the year seem to feel the growing season in Naperville is considerably longer and overlook the use of these fields for summer soccer programs for additional, younger players.

A SUMMATION

In Dr. Leis's column in the other paper today, he outlines four alternatives. And they all involve the Park District GIVING District 203 something.

I think the Park District should tell 203 no deals, solve your own problems (even though I do not pay taxes to the park district). 203 should solve their own problems.

They need to go out and do the American way--BUY LAND. And there are many ways they can do this. Buy the 60 acres of land by Benedictine University and have remote fields. Buy vacant land up at Cantera. Cancel their lease at Huntington Park on Naper and set up athletic fields. Condemn the land to the east of the school and develop fields.

This is their problem, leave the rest of the governments alone.

And note that Leis NOW admits the Central site is too small. Maybe before $87 million is spent, this process can be reversed and Central can be rebuilt on a suitable site. They will tell you they need another referendum. WRONG. They could enter into a lease agreement and use the money they have right now to correct a very bad decision.

We raised this issue three years ago and 203 particularly the ADMINISTRATORS ignored it and brushed it aside. Well let them fix their mess. It did not have to be this way. Better yet, put the plans on hold until a new superintendent is hired and better processes are followed to make better decisions.

Regarding Dan Denys comments:

Here you go again Dan, conflating and misstating as usual.

First, no, it's not all about the Park District GIVING 203 something. The Park District and D203 share the Martin Mitchell land and have cooperative agreements to share athletic fields currently on the MM property. This is a very good thing as it makes for the greatest utilization of the property. Also, no one entity holds title to it, and it's no one's to give away. You also conveniently omit Dr. Leis' comment about the possibility of leasing other property as a possibility.

You say they should go buy land. You, who goes on and on about D203 wasting tax dollars. I can see it now, if D203 proposed buying land for athletic fields, You would go crazy criticizing them for not living within their means. Lets face it, whatever they do, whatever they say, you will twist it around to try to make it the wrong decision. With you it's always "Heads you win, tails they loose"

And of course, what Dan Denys post would be complete without you misquoting someone by conveniently changing their words to say something different. This statement by Dr. Leis;

But the downside of that location (NCHS) is that the property is
quite small for a 3,000-student school.....

Is twisted by you into;

And note that Leis NOW admits the Central site is too small.

He has never said it was too small, he has never said that we need a new site, or that we need a new referendum. Everyone can see you changed the meaning in order to make your case, and to bash the district for rebuilding Central. You're actually claiming that D203 has realized they made a huge mistake and will ask for a new referendum?

Incredible, just incredible!

What this is really about is D203 is looking into the possibilities for sourcing some of the athletic fields that it is loosing to the cemetery, as they had been letting D203 use the land till it was needed. The cemetery does have "title" to it I believe as it was a specific bequest for the land to be used specifically as a cemetery. But you, in your twisted way, are attempting to turn this into a "referendum" on the entire NCHS renovation, and D203's administration.

Sorry Dan, while it's classic Dan Denys, you can try to bamboozle us, but nobody buying.

Nobody.

The Naperville Park District serves taxpayers that live everywhere and anywhere in the district. More park district taxpayers actually live outside SD 203 boundaries than live inside the boundaries.

The Naperville Park District can not help solve SD 203 problems unless they are fully prepared to offer the taxpayers in SD 204 en economically equitable deal. Notwithstanding the fact that the SD 204 taxpayers are an extremely litigious bunch; the park district is going to find itself knee deep in litigation if it offers special treatment to SD 203 at the expense of taxpayers in SD 204.

The Central site isn't necessarily too small. Mostly it is "too small" because it was never planned and designed to best utilize the available land.

If the SD wants to dig their heals in and preserve this site then it if for purely historic reasons and clearly not for what is in the best interest of the taxpayers and the students. Go ahead and slap another band aid on this if you want to. Reality is both the building should be demolished and the site turned back over to the city so it can properly be used in a way that all residents of Naperville can use and enjoy.

I have to say I’m ignoring all the DD comments here as none of them seem to be constructive.

So just what is the problem with relocating some of the garden plots to other areas of town? Would we even be having this discussion if we were talking about moving softball or soccer fields? Why are the garden plots so sacred? Because the perceived gardeners are seniors? Please.

Just move some of the plots to make room for some athletic fields. As long as some plots are created elsewhere, everyone should be happy. There’s nothing special to gardening in that particular area, is there? I mean, all the people we’ve seen in The Sun saying they donate all their food to charity will still do it, right?

T.B.

SUPPLEMENT TO SUMMATION

TO TB

Who owns all of the land south of Hillside? SD 203. NO. The Park District. And they have programmed the land for many uses including youth football and gardent plots.

Your comment

"So just what is the problem with relocating some of the garden plots to other areas of town?"

Is District 203 buying the Park District offsetting land to replace these uses elsewhere? NO. They are telling the Park District how to reprogram their land. How about letting me build a basketball court in your backyard TB so the kids can play their instead of in my yard. TOTAL ARROGANCE by 203.

AGREEMENTS TO USE

A key point to Higgins comments is the following:

"The Park District and D203 share the Martin Mitchell land and have cooperative agreements to share athletic fields currently on the MM property."

Again, NOT TRUE. Each SEPARATE LEGAL entity have title to their property and those entities control the use of their property. This ploy is like 203's plan to build a new Central in Koch Park.

And to the best of my knowledge, there are no long term agreements between 203 and the Park District. For example, the Park District could tell the high school that they will be running an after school tennis program at the tennis courts and Central would have to go elsewhere. Those tennis courts are the Park District's, not 203. That happened to me when I was in high school. The school had to build their own courts (although they had more than 30 acres).

WHAT DID LEIS SAY?

I interpret his article totally different than you. But don't be disingenuous and vile and try to spin the article. For those who are interested, the following link will let people read themselves.

http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=244654

TRANSPARENCY AND CONSISTENCY

Since 2006 (when the capital program first came up), my position has been very consistent. Identify the total need and present it to the taxpayers, in segments if that makes sense (and I know various reasons it does since I advise people who have successfully implemented such programs). And ask Paulson, I outlined a $300 million prorgram over 30 years (one of the reason you do the program in segments since state law arbitrarily limits school bonds to 20 years for 50 year assets) that would have minimal tax increases.

So Thom, all of your ranting and trying to put words in my mouth are totally wrong. In fact, it is in the public record, it is on your web site on the summary of our campaign promises.

T.B.,

The problem is that the gardeners come from all over the park district to use this land. Moving them out and then turning the garden plots over to SD 203 EXCLUDES fair, free, and full use of this public property that was given to the city for the use and enjoyment of ALL the residents to just a very, very small handful of a specific age group of children who will be using these athletic fields for only a few months out of the year.

The remainder of the time these athletic fields will sit empty not being used for anything. Let's not forget that all of the existing fields are reserved for the exclusive use of NCHS so there is nothing to suggest that new athletic fields will not also be reserved in a similar manner.

This is an enormously bad and inefficient use of a gift that given to be held in the public trust for the use and enjoyment of all residents. Not just athletes. Not just students. Not just student athletes who live in a certain section of Naperville.

Sorry, if the parents of SD 203 athletes want these kinds of facilities for their students to enjoy then they need to pay for them the old fashion way. They need to dip into their pocketbook and pay for the full cost and not look to the Naperville Park District for a free ride.

What is even more insane is looking at all of the overachieving Naperville helicopter parents who enroll their kids in every sport and activity possible so that little Jane or Johnny won't miss out any opportunities. All across this city every Saturday and Sunday morning legions of parents and children fan out headed to athletic games of all sorts. If only attendance at Sunday church services could be this high... Regardless of the time, money, sweat, and dedication that is poured into this weekend ritual the fact remains that the overwhelming, vast majority of these kids will never make the cut to play on a high school level team, even more will fail the cut to play at the college level. Out of the hundreds of thousands of kids who have gone thru Naperville schools in the last two decades we can count on our fingers the total number of kids who actually made it to the professional level. What a terrible waste of time and energy.

Truth and reality is at time harsh and sometimes it hurts. Try telling any soccer mom or dad that the odds are stacked so badly against their kid ever amounting to anything are usually fighting words. These parents neither want to hear it nor believe it... so like lemmings to the sea they all keep marching in the same direction blind to the truth and deaf to reality.

The behavior and demands of such parents is to a limited extent understandable. Thankfully, most of the residents and taxpayers fall outside this small, though noisy and vocal group. Hopefully the larger group of taxpayers will not be persuaded to squander and diminish community resources that were designed and intended to serve all residents in such a way that only a few will benefit from them in the future.

Oh the poor childern of Naperville Central have no where to play. I would suggest a play group w/ Naperville North but they would have to take a bus. So I suggest that we level Rotary Hill and put up Soccer nets (in the name of change). We can use that fill at the Quarry (Nobody likes thoes paddle boats anyway)and use that land for the Lacrosse team. We can turn the lower level of the City Hall parking garage into a indoor track (only if the city heats it for us). After all its for the children. But lets not stop there the childern of D203 need the boy scout camp property for the come back of Field Hockey. Trap shooters your not left out the childern need your property for Ultimate Frisbee. Sorry Naper Settlement Naperville Central needs your fort for detentions. For the rest of Naperville we won't leave you out, you can pay for it. After all its for the children.

This blog reads like a Hatfield-McCoy feud. Dan and Thom are interesting but neither is any more informed than Obamma or McCain. Do either of you people do anything other than try to influence the rest of us? Do you have jobs? Are you invalids? Please take my adivce and enjoy this beautiful season before the winter comes.

The following is a quote from Dr. Leis in his Daily Herald article

"The problem lies in Naperville Central's 35-acre campus, which is smaller than that of many newer schools located on 60 to 100 acres, Naperville Unit District 203 Superintendent Alan Leis said. The school needs space for athletic teams, physical education classes and marching band. However, it will lose field space next summer when Naperville Cemetery reclaims some of its land near the school. It also will need more space if lacrosse becomes an Illinois High School Association-sanctioned sport."

This sounds like Dan D. is right on target (sorry Thom, looks like you are wrong again). Why did Leis say this was not an issue when confronted with the question during the capital program? If the park district does not bail him out, doesn't this require him to develop a satelite athletic field. He might have to purchase (through negotiation or condemnation) the Meier site in Lisle or the southwest corner of Naper and 75th.

This is not the end of the world, many schools have remote athletic fields. Glenbard West has baseball fields by COD. Lake Forest plays most sports at the abandoned west campus (they kept their land unlike 203 for future uses). This is better than forcing other governments from having to change their plans.

And this issue was known particularly if the Taxpayers Ticket raised it. The cost to purchase and develop athletic fields could run to as much as $20 million. Ooops. The taxpayers suffer again from poor planning.

Responding to Dan Denys comments:

My previous statement;

“The Park District and D203 share the Martin Mitchell land and have cooperative agreements to share athletic fields currently on the MM property."

Dan Denys response;

Again, NOT TRUE. Each SEPARATE LEGAL entity have title to their property and those entities control the use of their property. This ploy is like 203's plan to build a new Central in Koch Park.

The issue isn’t who has title, or who’s “taking over” somebody else’s land. The issue is does the SD and PD work cooperatively on the MM property and elsewhere in the city, to share and maximize usage of the property, irrespective of who owns it and the answer is Yes!

Not only do they work together on the MM property, but in addition, District 203 has numerous parcels of land which the Park District is currently using - Wil-O-Way Park, the fields around Prairie School, the site for the Early Childhood Center, and a portion of Arrowhead Park, to name a few, are “owned” by D203, but are used by the Park District.

If need be, I suppose D203 could "reclaim" this land for school athletic use, but that will then create a domino effect that will bump Park District programs. It’s all about two organizations working together to work out the best solution for the land that they both have. You keep trying to make it into some kind of power play, take over scenario, which it isn’t. Actually, come to think of it, isn’t that pretty much your style? You weren’t interested in working with the Teachers Union if you got elected, It would all have been about power and exerting control over the teachers and Administration. Perhaps it’s just how you see the world, and so you assume it’s what’s happening here.

It isn’t.

.

The following is classic Dan Denys fantasy:

TRANSPARENCY AND CONSISTENCY
Since 2006 (when the capital program first came up), my position has been very consistent. Identify the total need and present it to the taxpayers, in segments if that makes sense (and I know various reasons it does since I advise people who have successfully implemented such programs). And ask Paulson, I outlined a $300 million prorgram over 30 years (one of the reason you do the program in segments since state law arbitrarily limits school bonds to 20 years for 50 year assets) that would have minimal tax increases.

To say that you would support a $300 million capital program is a laugh. You railed and railed against spending the $115 million for the current program. Do you really expect anyone to believe that you would support spending $300 Million?

As for the rest, D203 was way ahead of you. Healey Bender did the analysis and identified needed work, and also outlined possible improvements. D203 identified the primary needs, held extensive resident input, came to a decision and went to referendum. For only $115 million. If you bother to talk to Zager he will explain to you that the district feels that they can cover required repairs and minor upgrades to various schools for the foreseeable future without going for another referendum. There will be not be a request for another $185 million coming in the future. Indeed, I have never seen a $300 million price tag on any capital proposal. I have no idea where you get the number.

Lastly,

Posting what Dr. Leis actually said, vs your mis-characterization, isn’t vile, disingenuous, or spin. It’s letting readers see how you manipulate others peoples words. I'm more than willingto let the reader decide just who is being disengenious

Some clarification of who owns the various parcels on the Carolin Martin Mitchell bequest

The Last Will and Testament of Caroline Martin Mitchell describes four separate tracks of Land.

Tract A was comprised of 11.73 acres and includes the home of Caroline Martin Mitchell, along with several other buildings, now known as Naper Settlement.

Tract B was comprised of 5.63 acres located on the north side of Aurora Avenue, north of her home. A granite marker on this property commemorates the location of the historical buildings previously existing on this site as per the Will. The property has since been incorporated into the Naperville Riverwalk

Tract C was comprised of 176.90 acres, portions of which have been conveyed by the City of Naperville to Community School District 203, Edward Hospital, Naperville Park District, and Louise McGirr. Other portions have been leased by the city to the Naperville Park District for the Community Garden Plots and the Sportsman’s Club.

Tract D was comprised of 10 acres for which the city received an undivided half interest. This site is known as the Von Oven Scout Reservation.

The significance here is that the City has ultimate say over the garden plots, and Sportsman's club. And the city has at least 50% say in the Boy Scout Reservation.

The Cemetery property must have been conveyed earlier and directly to the Naperville Cemetery. I do know they have 100% iron clad control over their property.

Source:

http://www.naperville.il.us/emplibrary/introduction_mitchell.pdf

Anonymous wrote:

"Regardless of the time, money, sweat, and dedication that is poured into this weekend ritual the fact remains that the overwhelming, vast majority of these kids will never make the cut to play on a high school level team, even more will fail the cut to play at the college level. Out of the hundreds of thousands of kids who have gone thru Naperville schools in the last two decades we can count on our fingers the total number of kids who actually made it to the professional level. What a terrible waste of time and energy."

If you think the only purpose of all this is to make professional athletes out of the kids, then you have a point. However, I would guess most of the kids would say after the fact that learning how to work as a team, having fun and creating memories made the effort worthwhile. Moreover, using your logic, one would also have to say that teaching children music, art, drama, etc. is a waste of resources, since only a very small percentage of kids who ever sit down at a piano, pick up a paint brush, or act in a school play will ever make their living as musicians, artists or actors.

J.Q.P.,

You are missing several points on various aspects of this statement. Probably the most significant is that everything you claim they "get out" of athletics they can not only get as much if not more out of other youth programs but these other youth programs don't cause injuries and don't require enormous tracts of land at the public expense. Nor do these other youth programs instill all the false hope about these kids talent and athletic abilities. The entire structure and operation of youth athletics was well intended early on. What it has evolved in as a result of overachieving, helicopter Naperville parents is an out-of-control cut-throat competition that teaches kids more about selfishness and ego that it truly does about team spirit and cooperation. Talk about ready, fire, aim.

Ask any parent of a band member about the injustice of what they have to pay for as opposed to what the parents of the players on any athletic team pay for. Pretty much the same for artists, singers, actors.

Now Lies thinks we need more athletic fields because Illinois might make lacrosse a high school sport. Well so is fly fishing so maybe we should go buy a river?

Let's all take a pause and remember the right to a free public education under Illinois does not include extracurricular activities. There are no grades for football or basketball or volleyball. It doesn't go on your transcript or GPA. If students want extracurricular activities and if the parents want to pay for them, fine. The taxpayers should not be expected to foot the bill for a bunch of nice to have amenities, most especially when public funds are used for such and then such facilities are reserved for the exclusive use of a very few athletes.

Thank you, JQP. Your comments are right on the money.

Making pro athletes out of our kids is not the point of organized sports. Besides making friends, children learn just from participating. They learn discipline. They learn that you don’t always win. They learn good sportsmanship.

And let’s not overlook the benefit of these kids getting out from behind the computer keyboard and getting some exercise.

T.B.

"... She agreed, but in leaving this generous gift thru her Last Will
and Testament, she had two stipulations: that her home would
remain a museum in perpetuity and that the land would be used
for park or municipal or public purposes by the City of Naperville
or some other governmental agency."

Edward Hospital is not a government agency. It is a misuse of the public trust under which this gift was accepted for Edward Hospital to retain any continued right, use, or control of such land. Someone in the city legal department screwed up big time back when Edward Hospital converted from a government hospital to a private hospital. This land can not just be ignored and allowed to pass for free from government entity to which it was gifted to what is now a private corporation. The city legal department and the city council absolutely must address this illegal use of public land.

If nothing else Edward Hospital should have been paying the City of Naperville fair market value for all land currently set aside for its exclusive use and which it has been using for revenue generating purposes for many, many years.

For Anonymous on October 26, 2008 6:00 PM

Couple of comments.

As Dr. Leis never said, or implied that the site is too small, I question your agreement that he did. I will say my quote was from Dr. Leis' column in the Neighbor section on 10-24. Dan's link was from a Melissa Jenco article of 10-22, Regardless, in neither did he say the site was too small.

Secondly, lets get serious here kids. We are talking about trying to find some space for some additional athletic fields. The SD and PD share each others land now, and will continue to do so in the future. They will work this out. D203 isn't going to be buying property for athletic fields.

All this blovating about having to buy land @$20 mill or regrets that we aren't re-locating Central for an additional $50 million so we can have a couple of athletic fields is pretty silly, and had D203 actually proposed either one, the caps lock key on Dan Denys keyboard would have melted from overuse.

I'm sorry, but all Dan Denys is doing here is stirring the pot.

Those who comemnt about moving the garden plots as "no big deal" obviously don't use the plots. Many gardeners have had the same plots for many years and have spent time and money amending the soil. Try pulling back your sod and planting lettuce and see what you get. Do you all forget that Naperville started as a farming community - why do the last remaining farmers have to be pushed out of the downtown area. Are they an embarrasment? Large unoccupied soccer fields sell more houses?

Leave the garaden plots alone, add more plots in South Naperville for those who find that more convenient. Promote going green, being a local grower/consumer and reducing our carbon footprint.

By the way I'm a garden plot gardener and I'm far from being a Senior Citizen.

Here is Dr. Leis quote again.

"The problem lies in Naperville Central's 35-acre campus, which is smaller than that of many newer schools located on 60 to 100 acres, Naperville Unit District 203 Superintendent Alan Leis said. The school needs space for athletic teams, physical education classes and marching band. However, it will lose field space next summer when Naperville Cemetery reclaims some of its land near the school. It also will need more space if lacrosse becomes an Illinois High School Association-sanctioned sport."

When Leis says the campus is "smaller" and the "school needs space", doesn't this mean that the site is too small? Give it up Higgins, no wonder nobody can have a civil discussion with you.

And reading that quote again, the lacrosse team has survived well without school funding as a club sport at other fields. If the sport is "sanctioned", why can't it continue to operate in the same manner? This sounds like more big government.

Thom,

The existing infrastructure of Naperville Parks is way underutilized. The existing scheduling system of Naperville Park and school district athletic fields leads to way underutilization.

The biggest problem we have is that we have not invested well in the athletic fields that we already operate. These fields, by and large, are set-up for single use with some undergoing seasonal rotation, but not many.

The key to solving the problem isn't to continue to add more and more athletic fields. The key is invest in the existing fields and improve them to accommodate multiple sports, invest in artificial playing surfaces and drainage systems that decrease the wear and tear, weather damage and delay, etc.

We really do not need additional athletic fields. We really need to learn how to better utilize the fields that we already own.

I have a few quick comments:

1. The fields in question are not used exclusively by NCHS. These fields are used by various Youth Organizations throughout the majority of the year (ranging from NYFL to Park District Soccer). I live next to this area and my child participates in these programs from Spring through late Fall.

2. The Dr. Leis quote (if taken in context to the entire statement) notes that after the loss of land to the Cemetery the campus will be too small to meet the demands not only of the HS but the Community at large.

3. The Schools and Park District provide programs that the majority of citizens want. Regardless of some of the posters personal angst towards these choices, the fact remains that far more kids want to play Soccer, Football, whatever vs. Band, Theater, and Dance. Of course, a funny item on this is that the single most expensive item in a school construction project is the modern Auditorium / Theatre....

4. The continuing insinuation that any deviation from the Will is "illegal" is not entirely accurate. If you closely read the wording it uses a broad brush to define the "Public Use" mandate. The interpretation of this is left to the City Council. Therefore, they being the ones making the definition would make it a hard sell to declare these actions "illegal".

Ok...back to your irrational arguments....

Blemum,

Where your own "irrational argument" argument goes wrong is that it is not up to the city council to create the definition or how to interpret such a definition, it is up to the courts.

Some of the athletic fields are reserved for exclusive use. Other athletic fields get exclusive use at certain times. Regardless, these public grounds are not otherwise available for general public use.

The use of these athletic fields has been turned over by the city of naperville to other government agencies and these government agencies are severely restricting the public use and access of this gift to just what amounts to just a small handful of adolescent athletes. This is a blatant violation of the spirit and intent of this gift. If you don't understand how or why then you need to learn a lot about the law.

Edward Hospital is an even worse example of illegal use of a public land gift. Pretty soon it will most likely even loose it's tax exempt status and be forced to pay taxes as a for-profit hospital. Think not? Then study the case law from Champaign County, Il.

Anonymous,

You might have a point with Edward Hospital, but I doubt any court is going to agree with your argument that giving control of the land to a public school does not constitute "public use".

-JQP

JQP,

Maybe, maybe not. If that logic follows then a jail is public use or a military installation?

The operative word is "use". For a government organization to take possession or "ownership" doesn't guarantee public use. Public use that is limited to a very, very narrow slice of the population at large would not meet the spirit or intent of the gift. That fact is further compounded by the fact that the very, very narrow slice proposed to served doesn't even represent the total population of that very, very narrow slice. Since there are two school districts and numerous private schools in Naperville such setting aside for SD 203 use would further discriminate against anyone similar to this very, very narrow slice of the population but who do not happen to reside in or attend SD 203 schools.

The key point is that this gift was bequeathed for the benefit and use by all residents of the city of Naperville, not to just those residents who happen to reside in SD 203. The benefit of the gift must be equally shared with all residents in the city or it is discrimination and a blatant and illegal misuse of the terms of the original gift.

Let's not forget what her will stated: "that the land would be used for park or municipal or public purposes by the City of Naperville or some other governmental agency." That the land would be used for park or municipal purposes.... Sounds to me like her intent was clear for this land to remain as open land. Even building the high school may have been a violation of the terms of her will. Same with Edward Hospital. Big problems for both of them if a court were to decide these structures were illegally constructed.

All Naperville Park District residents have paid for all park district assets thru our taxes over the years.
For the Naperville Park District to give away or even swap Park District property with just one school district is not fair and equitable. If the Park District is going to start swapping land then it better be prepared to have the same discussion with school district 204.

I'd like a total count of all the Naperville Park District land that has been turned over to school district 203 along with a comparison of how much has been provided on an equitable basis with school district 204. Actually since school district 204 is larger, both in area, population, and students, than school district 203 the amount of land which Naperville Park District should be proportionately providing to school district 204 would actually be a larger amount.

Until the question of fairness and equitability can be factually determined and communicated to all taxpayers throughout Naperville any talk of any land swaps should cease. Facts first. Plenty of time to discuss the need after the facts are clearly communicated.

Anonymous,

Actually, yes, a jail or a military installation would qualify as public use, though a military installation, at least, isn't exactly "municipal."

The problem with your line of reasoning lies in this sentence:

"The key point is that this gift was bequeathed for the benefit and use by all residents of the city of Naperville, not to just those residents who happen to reside in SD 203."

Unfortunately for your argument, the will does NOT specify that the land is for the use of all the residents of the city of Naperville.

The key point is that this gift was bequeathed for the benefit and use by all residents of the city of Naperville, not to just those residents who happen to reside in SD 203. The benefit of the gift must be equally shared with all residents in the city or it is discrimination and a blatant and illegal misuse of the terms of the original gift.

Those fields would certainly be available for any use during the winter or summer ( you conveniently failt to mention that Ribfest is held mainly on fields of this kind ) for picinicing or athletics - Many youth sports use these fields on weekends as well.

I'm interested how you square the fact that 8% of the garden plots are rented by non-residents. If you wish to play by these rules, then clearly this is a violation of the terms of the will as well.

The park district and both school districts have historically worked together to to the best for the community. This move is precipitated by the cemetery's action. The right thing to do is for some land near Naperville Central to be opened up for the school and whomever is moved to be taken care of wherever they are moved. Whether that means moving some Garden plots, or moving the scouts to Seager Park, so be it. Either the scouts or the gardeners (or both!) can get equal or better facilities elsewhere in town. Everyone can win.

I'm sad to see that the Sun Editorial board has been compromised and influenced by the bunch of "sour grapes" losers who blast 203 for everything that they do, since their failed election attempt in 2007.

Fact is there is land behind the garden plots ( the west and to the south) that isn't even being used for gardening. There is enough room on this land for at least 4 soccer fields or ball diamonds. I guess the garden plots could be relocated to the very west with the soccer fields closer to West St... the question being what is the most economical way to do it. Fact is both uses could be accommodated without upsetting or relocating the gardeners.

More playing space could also be carved out of the east side of the sportsman's park area as well for at least 2-3 soccer fields or ball diamonds. This land has and nevere will be used by the sportsman's park.

Of course then there is the good old fashioned way if SD 203 needs or wants more land. They can dip into their pocket and pay for it like everyone else. Considering the ad infinitum free ride they are getting for the entire NCHS campus paying for a few athletic fields is chump change. All they have to do is look east at the area bounded by Webster-Washington-Aurora-Hillside. While it might be upsetting to the residents of this area to see their property get taken by eminent domain; it is within the school district's right to acquire this property... all they have to do is pay fair market value.

Rumor has it the developers want this same area for a new TIF district and an expansion of downtown commercial so it probably is only a matter of time as to whether the city takes these houses by eminent domain or the school district moves first.

There are plenty of options to consider before we risk upsetting one of the strongest voting blocks in Naperville and that is our senior citizens!

Q.
Do you agree that geographically, it makes sense to create additional garden plots at other locations?

A.
Is this the right question?

Should the question be: Why can't the local high schools, 203 and possibly including 204, share one first rate sports complex for game days, track meets etc? Naperville is only 15 minutes across in a car, which is how everyone gets to the games.

*How many under-utilized-Astroturf-Stadiums with lights do we need? Currently, between 203 and 204 we have 5.

*Why not build one good stadium with heated restrooms, first rate stands, a scoreboard with changeable team names and lights; and, arrange the schedules to optimize use of the stadium? Maybe we could get our own professional farm team which would defray the costs of the stadium/s.

*Three games a day could be played on an Astroturf field on a Saturday and one on a Friday night? One stadium could support four home games in a 24 hour period. Lets see, one football stadium, one baseball stadium and only one parking lot.

*Has Central considered using NCC's stadium for Central's home games? Did anyone ask before going after the seniors little gardens?

Q.
Or does that detract from the sense of community that gardeners experience working together?

A.
The primacy of the wants of the school systems in Naperville over all other interests and realities is clearer every day.

With Coat-Hanger-McGuire as their former leader (and her allies at the League of Women Voters), it’s not hard to imagine the mind set of the rest of the leadership at the schools. Destroying the Garden Plots in order to get to the Boy Scouts and the Sportsman's Park is a vivid example of "the ends justify the means". “There here”, the TV People.

Q.
What do you think of this latest proposal?

A.
With a good chance that our first Marxist President will be coronated in January, why not give the folks a preview of what unrestrained government power in pursuit of a socialist (Marxism without the word Marx) remake America agenda will look like at the local level.

As Gorby said, “the last refuge for Marxism in the world is the campuses of American Universities”.

When I attended a top university 30 years ago, many of the professors were open self admitted Marxists, the rhetoric and leftist propaganda at COD a few years ago was the same, if not more intense, and constant. The record was three days without an anti Republican diatribe by the PHD. Obama is reflective of academia, now that I have heard the rhetoric of the former 203’s teacher’s union leader, I can say at every level.

Are the High Schools (actually at every level) where the godless-socialist trickle-down-effect is taking place? You have it, we want it, and we are taking it! Start asking your kids “what do you learn today”, if you aren’t already doing so. Then listen.

Q.
Why do ideological zealots like McGuire and her allies (and oppressive governments) hate gun owners and organizations like the Boy Scouts (and Garden Plots?) that teach self-reliance?

A.
People with guns can resist the will of the government (how the
European Monarchies, Nazism and Communism were removed) and people that believe that there is a God (any kind of God, your choice) won't believe that their rights come from the Supreme Leader or Government. Rights are God Given and the ability to defend oneself is one of them. So is growing your own food supply for need or because you like to.

I strongly encourage the gardeners to stand up for their rights!

The next thing you know, you will be called “selfish and unpatriotic”.

You will be told that you need to “place the needs of the community ahead of your selfish interests”. The rhetoric of Marxism.

I have gardened many years at the West Street plots. Yes, there is a group of hard-core gardeners that should be able to keep a plot there. However, this valuable land is underutilized. Many people who sign up for plots abandon them after the first month of fun. The reality of lugging water from the pump to your plot and pulling weeds with foot long roots is too much for the "gardening lite" folks. Many of these plots sit there for the remainder of the season and are weed wacked by the "owners" of the neighboring plots.

The topsoil there is deep and great for growing both vegetables and weeds. However, soil can be amended in another location and I'm sure the vegetables and weeds will grow just fine. In fact, after years and years of growing the same crops in the same plots, insects and plant diseases have settled in. It's pretty hard to claim your crops are organic if the gardener in the plot next to yours dusts his beans with an inch of insecticide. Perhaps a new location could result in even better gardening (think crop/field rotation).

By adding garden plots in other locations the park district can expand the gardening program and also provide the school and community with the much needed space. Many organizations will benefit from having the more fields at West Street, not just the high school. We need to keep an open mind on this issue. In my opinion, the park district is presenting a solution that will benefit all.

Bubo makes several good points.

For way too long both school districts have operated with a selfish, silo mentality. Every school plays a wasteful game of keep up with the Jones's rather than looking after what is in the best interests of the community at large.

For many, many decades the City of Chicago has been able to operate park district stadiums that are used by both public and private high schools.

Right next door, Lisle, our neighbor to the east we find Benet Academy and Illinois Benedictine University share the same stadium in a spirit of cooperation.

Just a east of NCHS is North Central College with a beautiful new stadium that has the potential capacity to serve both SD 203 high schools and the college. The question is would they be interested?

Seems this could be a win-win solution for all three to maintain and operate one stadium as their costs would be approximately 1/3 what each of them currently pays footing the entire bill for each of their own stadiums.

The old stadiums at both high schools could be dismantled and sold off on the secondary market and the underlying land and immediately adjacent could be converted into additional practice fields.... easily getting at least two practice fields in the space now serving only one competition field. Plus with all of the parking available at both high schools these practice fields could also be used for the weekend park district youth leagues.

Sometimes more isn't better. Sometimes better utilization of what is already present is the best solution.

"You will be told that you need to “place the needs of the community ahead of your selfish interests”."

##########################

Not necessarily Bubo. That wasn't the case with the Ponds property. The Park District put the selfish interests a handful of neighboring whiners ahead of the needs of the community.

To Southeast Side: If you say that 8% of the garden plots rentals from outside of Naperville is a misuse of the Martin Mitchel Gift don't forgrt that Naperville Central draws students from Bolingbrook, Lisle and Woodridge. Now thats a misuse of the gift. Also a City Stadium would be nice and the Chicago Fire was willing to pay for it! I read a couple of weeks ago that the new AD for Metea wants to have 2 more games at North Central (VS Neuqua & Waubonsee). If Neuqua has 4-5 home games per year and we play 2 at NCC we would have only 2-3 games in our very under used football stadium. D204 would have 3 stadiums for a total of about 10 games. Maybe Naperville Central could rent one of their stadiums.

Fred,

I never would have paid $2MM for the ponds, the property does not appear to be buildable. Problems with various government bodies being in bed with developers isn't unique to DuPage County.

Another profile in fiscal irresponsibility by the Park District.

How long will it be before we start hearing about the need for the government funded health club to compete with the (10-15)private ones.

Bubo

Figures. When District 203 was justifying upgrading the NCHS athletic field to artificial turf (at a cost of over $1M (my estimate)), parents were told that since the cemetery lease was expiring, then NCHS school would use the new artificial turf in the stadium for practice, and other activities that used to occur across the street, even including band practice. I was suspicious at the time and now it's clear: we got snookered again. They're still using the lease expiration as an excuse to spend even more taxpayer money.

One more point, this seems like a temporary issue. Once the construction crews stop using the existing soccer fields across West street as a parking, staging and storage area (as I've heard is the plan), then that space will become available again. So why disrupt everyone over a problem that will resolve itself in a couple years?

Maybe we just need to sit on these proposals for a few months until Lies retires. Face it he is a lame duck administrator at this point. Should the next superintendent be hobbled and handcuffed by yet another one of Lies's terribly bad decisions? With no time deadlines looming over us it makes more sense to wait and see how the next superintendent evaluates both the existing amount of athletic facilities and well as their utilization.

The solution is simple. Leave the garden plots alone. Move the Knock Park baseball fields to land just north of Meadow Glens Park and let central have the space for their fields. No one south of 75th street watns commercial on 75th street so if Meadow Glens park is expanded to 75th street, the baseball fields could be built there along with a couple of much needed lighted soccer fields. Everyone wins....

Well, that was a really self-serving letter to the editor yesterday written by Jim Brown of the St. Raphael Football.

So because St. Raphael wants to offer a football league there is no limit or end to how many players or games. This league just going to grow without limitation or restriction?

Let's first talk about this is a private, church sponsored league. How many athletic fields does the St. Raphael league use and how many of these fields are located on property owned by the diocese? How many public athletic fields are utilized and in which Park Districts are they located? How much does the St. Raphael, as a private football league, reimburse each Park District for the use of public facilities. How many of the 2,600 St. Raphael football players actually live within the Naperville Park District and how many out-of-town youth are the Naperville taxpayers being asked to support?

Then we can move the conversation on to talk about the risk and liability to the Naperville taxpayers of children the age playing in this league who are playing a contact sport with the risk of permanent injury or worse on tax supported athletic fields. After that we can talk about the true safety of these players when the coaches are volunteers and parents who have more true passion for the game than actual coaching experience or any meaningful training to safely coach Naperville youth.

If St. Raphael wants to offer an enormous youth football program of this size and nature then maybe it is time for the league to invest in it's own facilities and stop looking to the Naperville Park District taxpayers to foot the bill. This is absolutely no different than the youth swimming league where local swim and tennis clubs were created to provide the facilities for training and competition.

"If St. Raphael wants to offer an enormous youth football program of this size and nature then maybe it is time for the league to invest in it's own facilities and stop looking to the Naperville Park District taxpayers to foot the bill. This is absolutely no different than the youth swimming league where local swim and tennis clubs were created to provide the facilities for training and competition."

On the other hand, it's also the kind of public/private partnership often championed by those who are strongly opposed to government spending. St. Raphael takes on the expense of running the progam, while the park district provides the facilities.

JQP,

St Raphael does not take on the expense of running the program. Operating costs are paid for by the players parents.

If you or I want to "reserve" a pavilion in the park for a family outing we have to pay $100. If we want to put up a tent for shelter we have to pay $100. If we want to have a fire we have to pay $100. The Park District thinks it is just fine to nickel and dime an individual, that is if a $100 for any of these permits is nickel and dime, yet on a proportionate basis the cost of using all of the park district and school district facilities by St Raphael would equate to tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars.

No private use of our public facilities should get a free ride. It is blatant discrimination for the Park District to charge some users fees for use of tax supported facilities and not to charge others. The fact that district residents are charged fees and non-district player are not only makes the inequity worse.

If a fair and equitable fee structure was established for all users of athletic fields these fees could be used to both maintain and purchase facilities which would be the best method of funding... using user fees to support rather than asking tax payers who do not use such amenities to fund and pay for them.

A great example of this would be the two skate board parks. Park District taxpayers spent several million dollars to construct these parks. Now we are faced with maintaining and operating them plus the liability if some breaks their neck or worse. Neither of these parks are well utilized and most of the time are either empty or only have a handful of users. Such poor utilization could never be realistically paid for by user fees. Self sustaining user fees should be part of the equation when any new facility is considered. If it can't be self-sustaining then we shouldn't be getting into that business.

Anonymous: Fine, it is the parents, and not St. Raphael that ultimately pays for this program, but you are nitpicking here. The point is that it does not cost the Park District anything to manage the football program. That is handled privately. And as long as St. Raphael opens the program to all residents of Naperville, I don't have any problem with this use of a public facility. There is no equivalent program offered by the park district that I am aware of, so this is effectively an addition to the programs available to district residents.

BTW, how do you know that St. Raphael is not paying any fees for the use of park facilities?

As for the rest of your post, if the skate park is rarely used, then they can close it as far as I am concerned, since, unlike a grass field, it really can't be used for anything else. Also, I am aware of that $100 fee the district charges, and think it is exorbitant. I see the wisdom of charging something to reserve a space in a park, but I think $20-25 is more reasonable.

After having attended the Park District Meeting this evening –11.10.08 – I was a bit overwhelmed by the number of participants who see moving the garden plots as an issue of doing what is in the best interest of their kids. I did not however, hear any kids stand up and claim that installing new fields would change their lives for the better. There is no doubt that parents see themselves as doing what is best for their children – yet I would ask that they also look at the bigger picture. How many sports are enough? There are districts that would give an eyeball to be able to have even a tiny amount of Naperville’s sport budget. Count your blessings Naperville and realize that you have an affluence that should not turn into “I deserve”. We aren’t doing our children any favors by setting such an example of moving an established group due to their proximity to the school.
What happened to teaching our children piety? People are forgetting that while it’s good to experience many things, it’s also good to experience rest, relaxation and some of that wonderful family life that Naperville is so famous for providing. How about respecting others? What kind of life lessons are we teaching our children? Out with the old and in with the new?? Is life just about being bigger, better and more advanced?
Some may see moving garden plots simply as moving dirt – but it is so much more than that. Right here in the middle of town we have role models, practicing their trade and growing food for the local food bank in the process. They are not developing the land or building strip malls. Most communities would be thrilled to have such a group in the center of town. Yet we see them as “movable”. When was the last time your child visited a farm or worked in a garden. Most of you would say it only happens when you drive north for your annual trip to pick fall apples. Sports may teach your children about leadership, but having some connection to cultural heritage and seeing a working example will help your children to protect the environment and hopefully be better in tune in respecting our heritage.
I ask you, will your life be richer through the addition of yet another sport field that will have to be fertilized, mowed and watered? Will it increase the value of your home? Make your child a better person? Will it eliminate the amount of time you spend on the road driving your children? You may not be a gardener or even like vegetables for that matter, but the plight of the gardeners on West Street is yet another symbol of death to green spaces, reduction of small town life and the annihilation of recreation that people of all ages can do together. It’s not just about moving dirt……

Make no mistake that what the school district and park district are attempting to do is nothing more than a land grab that will forever change the look and use of this land. Let none of us forget that this land was donated to be used and enjoyed by all residents of Naperville. The point which we should all be alarmed about is that the number of groups and the number of different uses of this public gift is about to be diminished at the expense of certain groups to the benefit of other groups.

This is not the first time the park district and the school district have arrogantly and jealously set their eyes on land being used by other user groups such as Sportsman's Park, Von Oven, or the garden plots.

With the current mindset within the school district and park district they are about to literally turn over all of the available open for youth athletics. Pretty soon and at the current rate the school district and park district will have squeezed or forced all of the other user groups out.

This is not the smart thing to do. This is not the right thing to do. This is a terrible misuse and squandering of a public gift meant to benefit all of the citizens of Naperville. The lack of stewardship among those entrusted with ongoing management of this gifted property is appalling. If nothing else the entire school board and the park district board should be ashamed of themselves for allowing such a terribly bad idea to advance this far and for the damage it has done with dividing our community.

As a demonstration of good faith both the school district and the park district boards should start acting like good, respectful neighbors and learn to appreciate as well as tolerate all of the other users who benefit from this perpetual gift. Instead of looking do diminish the number of existing users we should all be looking for opportunities where more citizens can actually benefit and enjoy this gift by increasing the number and diversity of uses.

Realistically the demand for athletics has to be resolved in a different way and at a different location. We are all fooling ourselves if we think adding a couple of athletic fields along West Street is going to solve this problem because it is not.

And as long as we have school district superintendents who start leading us down the wrong road all over the possibility that something like lacrosse might become a high school sport sometime in the future we will never solve this problem of having enough athletic fields or the right type of athletic fields where and when we need them. BTW, if lacrosse is a problem for NCHS what is NNHS, WVHS, NVHS, and the new MVHS also doing to solve it? No, not one peep from any one of them. From all appearances lacrosse isn't even on their radar screen. This is but one example, but none of us can predict what may change or when in the future in terms of athletics or popularity of various sports. However, when we do have a legitimate concern or need none of us benefit from a knee jerk reaction and a selfish solution.

From a practical perspective we already provide a very diverse opportunity for athletics as it is. There might become a point where we have to face the fact that we may simply be unable to offer everything to everyone in terms of athletics. That is an important lesson in life all of children need to learn eventually anyway. Equally important our children also need to learn not to be selfish, to share with others, and to respect and tolerate others. In this regard I sincerely hope both our school board and park district board members will start being exemplary role models.

Anonymous wrote:

"Let none of us forget that this land was donated to be used and enjoyed by all residents of Naperville."

No, it was not. The only stipulation is that the land "be used for park or municipal or public purposes by the City of Naperville
or some other governmental agency."

JQP,

I'm not sure where you got your quote, but it is incorrect compared to what the City of Naperville officially states:

"In her Last Will and Testament dated July 31, 1935, Caroline Martin-Mitchell conveyed four parcels of land to the City of Naperville for park, municipal and public purposes."

"... to be used and enjoyed by all residents of Naperville." is a statement clearly consistent with "... and public purposes". It is interesting to note that according to the City of Naperville this gift was expressly for park, municipal and public purposes. I'm at a loss as to how Edward Hospital falls into any of these categories as a private non-profit, likely to soon be a for-profit, organization. I'm also at a loss as to how a school district falls into any of these categories either as it would be a real stretch to categorize a high school which serves only those students within a four year age group and who also happen to live in a certain portion of town as truly a "public purpose".

Even the City of Naperville publicly stated in the last go-around their vision for the future use of this property: "that will result in a "civic campus" that would benefit the community and its residents, consistent with the wishes of Caroline Martin-Mitchell."

Note the City of Naperville did not state "school campus" or "education campus" or "park campus". It clearly stated "civic campus" which implies a much larger, much more diverse group of users than at present. The City of Naperville also stated that it should benefit "the community and its residents, ...", not just some of its residents who happen to live in a certain section of town and who are approximately 14-18 years of age.

Let's also not forget that the City of Naperville still holds title to all of the land used for community garden plots and leases this land to the Naperville Park District. The Naperville Park District does not have permission to change the use of this land without permission from the city council.

City council elections are coming soon. The city council is already under fire on several fronts with issues that are hot button items with many voters. It is a no brainer that the city council will not take a chance or risk losing votes by voting the wrong way on a controversial issue. The city council fully understands that senior citizens are heavy users of the garden plots and they also are reliable and consistent voters.

Both NVHS and WVHS have club lacrosse teams. NVHS is adjacent to Frontier Park and makes full use of the facilities--and not only for lacrosse. I have seen WVHS lacrosse club use the facilities at Georgetown and McCarty School/Parks.

Anonymous,

I got my quote here. The "or some other governmental agency" clause certainly seems opens up the property's use to a wider range of purposes. But I have never seen the actual will, so I don't know precisely what it says. Do you? I'd be surprised if it as specific about the limitations to how the land should be used as you seem to think it is, as the powers that be in Naperville have historically not agreed with you; they have have been using part of the land as a high school for most of the bequest's history.

Nothing has changed with this new proposal. Why does the Naperville Park District board feel that they have ANY obligation to help SD203 solve their problems. Does anyone for a minute think that SD 203 would ever step in and help the Park District if it had a problem?

It is the responsibility of the SD203 school board to provide whatever athletic facilities are needed for their internal operations as a high school. There are many different parcels of ground available to them and by which they can execute eminent domain to acquire. The only difference being is that SD203 is looking for free land as opposed to digging into their own pockets and paying for what they claim they need.

I'd like to see an independent third party consultant hired by the city of Naperville assess the current athletic amenities all all of the local high schools and similar area school districts and determine if what SD203 think they need is fair, reasonable, and equitable with what other school districts are providing OR if what they are asking for is grossly inflated considering they are attempting to get away with a land grab to the detriment of Naperville residents in SD 204 and all Naperville Park District residents. Just because they say they need the land isn't enough proof for me to believe they actually need it. Plus if they actually had to pay for it like everyone else the million dollar question would be how much they would actually need under those circumstances... and call me a cynic but I'm willing to hazard that if they had to pay for it they would find a way to get by with a whole lot less.

Even if an independent consultant should determine that additional athletic fields are indicated I do not agree that SD203 should receive this land free of charge. SD203 should be paying the Naperville Park District for the current, fair market value of this land so that the Park District can buy additional or possibly even more land to ofset what is being taken out of use for recreations. In addition SD203 should pay all of the Park District expenses to relocate garden plots and utilities, legal expenses, etc and whatever they may need to do to convert the land to athletic fields, provide storm water retention, parking, lighting, etc. This is something SD203 wants so they alone should bear the entire burden of the cost of this proposal. The Naperville Park District should not be spending one cent to accomodate what SD203 is requesting. This is not a win-win situation. It is a win for SD203 and a loss for the Park District.

I am and have been opposed to this in principle since the idea first surfaced; however if SD203 agrees to the above proposal and in return signs an agreement with the City of Naperville and the Naperville Park District that this is their last and final deal and in return for this last parcel SD203 will forever after not be able to acquire another square inch of the Martin-Mitchell property, well then I would call it a fair compromise. Anything less and the deck is unfairly stacked in SD203's favor. The City of Naperville and the Naperville Park District possess what SD203 desires. They have the enjoyable position of being able to negotiate from a favorable position and there is no reason why they should negotiate a bad deal for all residents of Naperville. If SD203 won't agree to such a deal all the city and the park district has to do is walk away... let's not forget that all 3 are separate governmental bodies and none of them are obligated in any way to assist or give another any special or favorable treatment and especially must not treat each other any different than they would in negotiations with non-governmental property owners. And before any special deals or favorable treatment is dished out... every single elected official on each one of these three governmental bodies better think hard and long about the citizens who elected them and whom they are sworn to represent.

This is a bad deal for the Naperville Park District. If nothing is done it cost the Park District and the Park District tax payers $0 (Thats Zero Dollars). If D203 gets its way the Park District loses land and pays $250,000 plus has to maintain the new fields. The garden plots program at the Park District is a major success. All of the plots are leased out every year. Naperville Central has run out of land due to poor planning and wants a bail out just like AIG, Citi Group and the big 3 in Detroit. The Park District needs a better deal to sell. According to google a soccer field is 360'x240'. Thats 86,400 sq feet. There are 43,560 sq feet in an acre. D203 wants 2 soccer fields so that is 4 acres. For grins lets use the Brach-Brodie land price of $518,000 an acre but we all know that prime downtown Naperville land would cost a lot more. The Park District should be asking at least $2,072,000 plus expenses to move the garden plots. This is still a free land grab by D203 and is not fair to the taxpayers that live in D204.

50¢ says that "Anonymous on December 4, 2008 9:20 PM" is part of the supporters of the sour-grapes "Taxpayers Ticket" that was soundly defeated at the polls in the last election, and possibly even one of the candidates!

SD203 should be paying the Naperville Park District for the current, fair market value of this land

The School Districts (both) and park district have a long history of sharing land and facilities. Check the park district brochure and see all of the programs that are held at schools. Perhaps you'd like to see hundreds of thousands tied up in the accounting, billing and collections between the park district and the school disticts paying each other "fair market value" for every little thing?

Do your homework before your next rant, ok?

Face up to the fact that you have a problem. Your blind hatred of the school district serves no purpose. There are plenty of quality mental health professionals around - I'm sure Linden Oaks can give a referral.

I have to say, Chris that I know you have said you have a legal obligation to allow the good, the bad and the ugly here, but believe me, Ted and Jim did chime in when ugly comments were submitted, and required such comments to be re-written if the author still wanted to post, this during the especially heated school board topics.

What purpose do comments like the following serve?

"Face up to the fact that you have a problem. Your blind hatred of the school district serves no purpose. There are plenty of quality mental health professionals around - I'm sure Linden Oaks can give a referral."?

Now, I don't mean to single one side out, I just don't want to take the time to go through and C&P other examples. I don't believe these accusatory and inflammatory comments would have made it through the previous editors without requiring a re-submission. What harm and what laws would that break? These topics are hot and popular because they are an avenue for bashing and hostility, not for debate. Nice.

It's a slippery slope when you start trying to decide what is too inflammatory and what's not quite there yet. I'll use my judgment on when I think someone has gone too far. You'll notice I'll never take a tone like the one in your example in anything I post, but you can only babysit people so much. I've encouraged people to keep the debate civil, but when I took this over I was told we had to approve everything except the very worst cases, so there's only so much I'm allowed to do.

By Anonymous on December 4, 2008 9:20 PM "Why does the Naperville Park District board feel that they have ANY obligation to help SD203 solve their problems. Does anyone for a minute think that SD 203 would ever step in and help the Park District if it had a problem?" Yes, the Park District uses both the school districts various schools for many of their programs. There is a partnership there and it works well. The Park District does not have near the amount of indoor space needed to run all of their programs...that is why they turn to both school districts for the extra space.

To Southeast Side,

I was one of the three Taxpayers Ticket candidates. Contrary to your comment, I am in favor of the School District getting free land from the Park District (Jerry and Mike would probably agree as well). Maybe the City will give the District the money too. This is a total free ride for those residents of 203 that do not live in those jurisdictions (such as my unincorporated area). Thanks for the subsidy.

That said, I repeat my other postion. I raised this issue with Leis at the inception of the capital evaluation. Most modern schools have land areas between 60 and 100 acreas. Central is located on 23 acres, a major deficiency. This issue was totally thrown out as irrelevant by Leis, the task force (except Kevin Hausman and Steve Deutsch), ahd the school board. So why can't they live with their decision now?

Also, the School Board sold 100 acreas on Naper Boulevard that could have made a nice high school campus in order to pay teachers higher salaries in the 90's. They could still purchase the Meier site in the District (60 acres) and have a top rated stadium (Benedictine University)at a modest cost (where Naperville North played this fall). In fact, they should buy this land for a top notch athletic complex like they did in Lake Forest. They have all of their competition fields at the old Lake Forest West High School.

District 203 should be grateful that somebody is willing to bail them out for their poor or arrogant planning.

If district 203 wants to extend their tax authority to the rest of Napervile I have a message for you: You're nuts! Let the voters of district 203 decide if they are willing to support a referendom granting the school district the ability to purchase the land outright. If you people want this, fine, your taxes will go up (again). Otherwise let cooler heads prevail. Wait for the recession to end and try again. The high school sports participants can run to their practice fields in the same way generations before them have done. Leave the gardens alone.

There is a big difference between shared facilities and changing the landscape. If Naperville Central wanted to teach its students about gardening that would be shared facilities. Now if D203 wants to trade land and let the garden plots to be moved to the front lawn of NCHS then it has something to trade. Other than that this new offer is just the same land grab by D203 to make up the poor planning of it's past and present leaders.

According to google a soccer field is 360'x240'. Thats 86,400 sq feet. There are 43,560 sq feet in an acre. D203 wants 2 soccer fields so that is 4 acres. For grins lets use the Brach-Brodie land price of $518,000 an acre but we all know that prime downtown Naperville land would cost a lot more. The Park District should be asking at least $2,072,000 plus expenses to move the garden plots. This is still a free land grab by D203 and is not fair to the taxpayers that live in D204.

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Southsider,
You need some land where spectators can stand. You need some land behind the goal posts. You need some land between the 2 soccer fields. I believe you would need a mininum of 6 acres to pull off 2 soccer fields. So we are really talking more like $3,108,000. And since prime downtown location does cost a LOT more, I bet we are easily talking over $6,216,000.

But really all that is irrelevant. This land is being used by both parties and not owned by either. The Martin-Micthell Estate said it could be used for educational purposes. That means LOCAL educational purposes. District 203 is in that territory. District 204 is out of that territory.

Thus Distirct 203 got lucky as it was dealt good hand. District 204 was obviously dealt a bad hand and needs to accept the realities of its fate. Apparently the Martin-Mitchell Estate was generous and gave their land away. The Brach-Brodie Estate in district 204 was not generous and wanted top price plus extra.

It seems like a case of District 203 having a very generous contributor while District 204 not having a generous contributor. As far as I am concerned, the case is closed and the whining from District 204 that they were dealt a bad hand in the will of the estate is something they have to accept. You can not dictate someone's will. Martin-Mitchell gave his land for the local school district and park district. Not a foreign school district. When he died there was not even a District 204. Maybe if there was one he could have thrown them some money but he could not have thrown them land as he had no land in that DISTRICT.

No one likes to be DISINHERITED but it seems like District 204 was disinherited at least in their own minds. They really need to accept their bad fortune and move on. Let the river of tears, please stop now and forevermore!

Howard, you are correct on the size and cost of what the land is worth. What you are wrong about is that the Martin Mitchell estate is an entire Naperville property not just a D203 property. Even us in D204 that live in Naperville pay taxes to the Naperville Park District.They take our money just like they take yours. Now that there are 2 school districts in Naperville the Park District can not favor D203 over D204 Taxpayers and that is what is going on here. The problem here is that Naperville Central thinks that they are entitled to this property just like Hillary thought that she was entitled to be President

No way the garden plots should go to one high school of one school district. The garden plots are in a convenient part of Naperville and for any and all of the people in Naperville. The garden plots should stay right where they are.

Southsider,

Martin-Mitchell did not will his large plot of land to the Naperville Park District. There was no Park District at the time. He willed it for the cemetry and educational purposes. The Park District did a land grab. So did the high school do a little bit of a land grab. The cemetry has 1st rights and is taking some of the land back from Naperville Central. NC is being squeezed due to the terms of the estate will. They are squeezing land from the Park District on the other side in order to survive. It is an unpleasant situation bordering on a disaster in the making.

In a decade or two, the Naperville Cememtry where you and I have a right to buy a plot and be buried, will be asking for more land from NC. They are not in an enviable position. At one point when the cemetry gets real large because we are all dying and need plots, they will force NC out of the downtown area completely.

NC will eventually have to go out and buy land at 2 million per acre in 20 years....maybe a lot more. They are investing 87 million to remodel this crumbling school. I wish they would buy that lot from Meijers in Lisle for 14 million and build a brand new school on those 60 acres. Meijers was rejected by Lisle. Thus they need to unload this land. Since they have no use for it and real estate values crumbled District 203 may even be able to get it for 10 million. I heard Meijers is only asking 12 million from a realtor or 200k an acre. That is a good price and a lower price will be a steal. In 20 years it may be 2 million an acre. District 203 needs to act wisely and fast. See if they can sell some of that land they do not own downtown to District 204 since they want it....lol...

But for you to be trying to slice and dice the school right now over land it needs and is entitled to until the Cemetry issues its final death warrant is uncalled for. The Naperville Park District does not own this land. It is borrowing it temporarily. How can they give it to District 204? They can't! They can only use it. They can not sell it. One day it will all be used as a burial ground for many future generations.

The only rights you have as a Napervillian is to be buried there when you die. Of course for a cost. I promise I will not object as that is what the land was designated for. Others are simply just using it temporarily. What don't you get?

It seems to me you are jealous over nothing. You guys pay a little more in taxes than we do in District 203, but you have a Taj Mahal in Nequa Valley High School. I would love to pay a few more dollars in taxes so that my kids could attend such a beautiful and well built school with the latest and best technologies money can buy. Soon you will have a second Taj Mahal at Mequa or whatever the name was... All we have is 2 crumbling schools in total disarray. Have you not seen them lately. The roofs even leak! The bricks fall off quite frequently these days.

What are you jealous about? We should be jealous of you guys but we are not! We are happy you are better off than we are. May God Bless you guys with even more!

Now lets leave the school issue alone and focus on the waste by our City Officials. That is where you can find huge waste and since they represent both of us, let us work together to see what we can do about the 11 million dollar budget deficit and the 70 million dollars pension fund deficit. That makes a lot more sense to me!

Let us stop fighting each other and join the Napergatians in the big battle where our money is truly being squandered unnecessarily.
Did you hear about that library deck being built for 19.9 million dollars. I am estimating the 2.5 acres of land where they want to build are worth another 5 million. Now that is a huge waste or your money. Why are you not complaining? Join us in the real war, Southsider!

Howard, I agree with most of what you are saying. I have been around this town since 1979 back when there were only 36,000 people. When our past Naperville leaders carved up the Martin-Mitchell estate they put aside 23 acres for Educational Purposes and that is where Naperville Central stands today. Thats fine do with it whatever you want to do with it. The Park District runs Knoch Park and the Garden Plots. The Park District and the people of Naperville have been nice enough to share the parks with Naperville Central's sport teams. That I am also fine with. But it started last year when Dr. Leis wanted to step across Hillside and build the new school. That was shot down now he wants the Garden Plots. Next he will want Sportsmans Park and the Scout Camp. At any other school that is called being a Bully and he should be suspended for 2 weeks. D203 knew that Naperville was still growing back in the 1990's when they sold the Naper Blvd. property. Now they are stuck with $80 million that they can't wait to spend on a 23 acre property that they out grew 15 years ago when they elected to sell the other property. You as a D203 taxpayer should be screaming at your leaders before they waist your money. I as a Park District taxpayer am screaming so that they don't make a poor decision on the Garden Plots. Everyone knows that they are worth more than the $500,000 that D203 is willing to pony up. Why the Park District is willing to help them out by paying another $250,000 on top of losing a successful program I will never know. Leave the Garden Plots alone. Keep Knoch Park open to all of Naperville like it was intended.

Howard, where are you getting that the cemetery has first rights to all of the Martin-Mitchell land?

Southsider,

I understand where you are coming from. Let us agree to disagree on our points of disagreement. I don't think we can push NCHS out of the downtown unless they buy that Lisle 60 acre lot which I am all for. The price is right and it is a once in a lifetime opportunity. Let us see if they blow this unique opportunity. There is hardly any land left in Naperville. So they need to act.

For the meantime, you and I need to focus on the $11 million operating budget deficit, the $70 million pension fund deficit and now the library $25 million parking deck mess.

Let us give this Napergatian group some support. They truly understand government waste. Our council members are CLUELESS!

Howard, I can only support 1 cause at a time. There is a better way for NCHS to use the land that they use at Knoch Park. On a recent trip to the Univ of Missouri I ran across a student area called Stankowski Field (google it). It is 3 full size soccer fields w/ synthetic turf,lights and a running track around it. Very nice. A facility like this and the returfing of the football field could solve most of NCHS's shortage of practice space. They don't need more space. They just need fields that they can use over and over again.

By Howard on December 7, 2008 9:42 PM

Dear, dear Howard,

Please do yourself a favor and take the time to do a little research and check your facts before you post again. 99% of what you stated about the cemetery is factually incorrect and simply is not going to play out anywhere near like you describe.

Southsider,

The School issue is not really taking anything much out of your wallet right now. There is little that we can do hastily. No one is going to throw 3000 students on the downtown streets because they are studying on illegal land. Let us get real!

The other issues have a much greater impact on your wallet. This library deck alone could take 500 dollars out of your household finances if approved. That should be something you should be able to concentrate on. The Napergatians need our help to take on City Hall.

If the city keeps hiring rookie cops and fire fighters for 60k with a promise of tons of raises and promotions with a right to retire at age 51 and a 75% pension to boot, we will be where California is right now. Both the state and the cities. Why can't we be pre-emptive? Why are only the Napergatians pre-emptive while the rest of us are re-acting when it is too late. When you hire someone and promise him the moon, he can force us to deliver unless we file bankruptcy.

So either we deliver what we can not afford at your or my families' expense or we file bankruptcy. How can you not make a little time to save the city from bankruptcy. It only takes an hour to show up at a City Council meeting, express your view, and leave. You don't have to stay for the whole packet to be gone over...hardly anyone does! Public speakers get first shot and then they leave. At least we could say we did our part. I know Ron Randall and his small but dedicated group will be showing up and so will many Napergatians. Also, I expect the neighbors to be there in full force as they don't want a high rise parking garage towering over their million dollar homes. I wonder if any of our council men would ever tolerate a parking deck towering over their homes? Or for that matter his royal highness, Mr. William Brestal.

Maybe, we can ignore the 11 million operating budget deficit for now and give the new city manager time to see if he can clean the mess of the prior 2 managers. Don't be hung up on one issue! Most of us would love to exchange our schools and land for your schools and land. Believe me!

There is no advantage to having a school in downtown. Traffic is a nightmare when you have to pick up the kids. It is a waste of time! We are not at any advantage. How would you like your kids to look out the window and see a huge cemetry? How would you like your kid to hit a home run and have to go jump over the cemetry fence and retrieve the ball from the site of a tomb? Have some mercy and feelings for what kids have to go through at NCHS. It is not all about money!

For those who disagree with Howard, please provide your facts to show he is wrong. Otherwise you are simply BABBLING!

Anonymous wrote: "For those who disagree with Howard, please provide your facts to show he is wrong. Otherwise you are simply BABBLING!"

Very well. As far as the cemetery's rights, or lack thereof, to all of the Martin-Mitchell land, how about this link?

By Anonymous on December 8, 2008 3:51 PM,

No one is babbling and it isn't anyone's obligation or responsibility to do Howard's homework for him.

Factual information on this subject is available many places... Naper Settlement, Naperville Public Library, even the City of Naperville web site to name a few... you don't have to look far, wide, or deep to understand that what Howard posted isn't even close to being factual.

Plus, even if I took the lazy way out and did your work for you and posted something... how would you know it was true, factual, and accurate? That is why everyone should arm themselves with information where they know and trust the source... not something you are likely to find on Potluck or internet forums in general.

I don't think Howard ever said the cemetry had all the rights to this land. But some of its land is being used by the School District and Park District. The cemetry wants some of this land back once the lease expires. All Howard was saying is this puts the School District in a situtation where it needs land from the other side such as the Garden Plots or Sportman's Club. That is what is happening.

So I think the link provided by John Q. Public jives with Howard. Howard is not the lawyer of the estate giving serious details. He is a blogger simply expressing his opinion.

He is looking for a debate. Saying he is wrong does not make him wrong. You have to show where he is wrong.

It seems like some District 204 folks are upset that District 203 got its land for free. Well, some people inherit money and some don't. Every one is dealt a different card in life. That is all Howard is saying. It seems the 204 folks are having a hard time accepting the card dealt to them and want some land. Maybe we should give the USA back to the American Indians. Give me a break everyone.

Howard is right. We should be helping the Napergatians with the other issues and be united instead of fighting for school land that we can not do anything about. Don't you guys care about the 100,000,000 dollars mess that Howard is talking about that the City of Naperville got us in. That should be on the FRONT BURNER!

Anonymous Dec. 8 @7:11. The people of D204 don't want you to give anything back. You got your 23 acres when the city fathers carved up the Martin-Mitchell estate. That was put aside for Educational Purposes as the will wanted. Thats where Naperville Central is,do with it what ever you want with it. We knew that when we split up and formed D203 & D204. Thats a done deal. If you want more land your on your own. The will was satisified when you got your land. You have no rights to any more of the Martin-Mitchel estate. You gave up your rights to any more land when you agreed to that deal. The Park District that runs Knoch Park and the Garden Plots is in control of that land not D203 (We let you use Knoch Park for some of your sports teams). D203 is in control of only the 23 acres that NCHS sits on. Naperville Central has out grown its property. Do what Bolingbrook and Wheaton Central did and move or make the most of the land that you have. Where it is not fair to the D204 people is with the Park District (where we pay our taxes to) wanting to solve the past problems of the D203 leaders that didn't look ahead. Remember that you had 100 acres on Naper Blvd. that you sold knowing that NCHS was land locked.

Where are the 100 acres on Naper. Blvd? Are you talking about the SW corner of 75th and Naper Blvd. If you are, I don't think that lot is even 18 acres. You can not build a school for 3000 pupils on it. Maybe athletic fields but that is about it. A nice football stadium with adequate parking.

Can you tell me when District 203 owned this property and sold it? When did they sell it? For how much?

I have always seen real estate signs selling it as a commercial property for the last 30 years.

Why would 203 buy a piece of very prime commercial property in the first place that usually goes for 3 times the price of a residential property? I guess if they bought it as an investment and later sold it for its massively appreciated price that would be a smart move. That would contribute to keeping REAL ESTATE taxes low for 203 residents if they made a good investment.

At least their investments are much better than the Police and Fire Fighter Pension Funds who have lost over 70 million dollars when you factor in the losses from Oct and Nov.

Maybe we should have the Napergatians and District 203 making the investments for the police and fire fighters in the future. They could not do much worse than those managing the police and fire pension funds.

Ananymous, Your to far south. It is just south of Maple on the west side of Naper Blvd. There is a subdivision there now that I don't know the name of. It was a good deal for D203. They used the money to pay the teachers raises in the early 1990's. Now it is coming back to bite everyone in Naperville. D203 thought that Naperville North was big enough so they sold it. Knowing all along that Naperville was still growing and Naperville Central was land locked. That is the short sighted doings of your past D203 leaders.

Oleson Estates is on the old 203 high school land. Should call that Teachers Estates.

Just give NCHS some of the Garden Plots and Sportman's Club. We don't need people firing rifles and scaring my dog all day and night.

And the Garden Plots can be relocated easier than a brick and mortar high school.

I simply see jealousy from the District 204 folks!

Let us grow up. I wish our land was as cheap as your land. We don't even have a piece of land big enough for a high school in the entire district. Get over your jealousies and let us grab some land for a better use.

Ms. Martin did not tell us how much land we can grab. If the City of Naperville wants to convery a little more, that is up to them. Since most of council members are from District 203 they will probably give us our land and you guys will have to eat your hearts out. Stop being so petty and jealous. You guys got the Taj Mahal schools and we got the dumps. Let us improve our schools so at least the roofs will stop leaking and the bricks will stop falling off. Do you want a brick to fall on one of kid's heads??? What is wrong with you 204 folks. Have mercy! It is the season of gifts and sharing. Let the city give us some very needed land.

Anonymous 12/9/08@3:46, We have no jealousies of D203 nor Naperville Central. You have great students but your school building has some problems. It sounds like your problem has been with the gun club. You should have looked into that before you bought your house. Now if you want more land buy it or beg the City of Naperville who runs the estate. Quit picking on the gardeners every year. If the City caves in then we D204er will have an issue with City Hall. So be it.

Southsider,

I don't have a problem with the gardners. Let us make a deal. Keep the gardners and close the Sportsman Club and will the land to District 203.

My dog would finally live in peace and I don't have to listen to my dog barking all day and night. I can get my peace and nap/sleep finally. So can my kids sleep at night. So can my neighbors who complain when my dog barks. They find it hard to believe my dog can hear these bullets but when I asked them to listen, they finally also heard them.

I am not the only one who has an issue with this Gun Club. People as far as 2 miles away have complained about their dogs being frightened by the sound of bullets. Dogs can hear much better than human beings. It is enough we have to put our dogs through this on the 4th of July. Does every day have to be the 4th of July in Naperville! Where is the sanity in this town? I wish the Napergatians will take this town over in the next election so we can have reasonable people running this town.

Let us have some consideration for our animals and blow this Gun Depot up. If they want to practice shooting they should go to a remote area....not in the middle of a town.

I hope our city council closes Sportman Club very soon. If not, myself and many of my neighbors will be voting for the Napergate Slate. We are just tired of business as usual in this town. It has gone to0 far. And these deficits are killing my family budget. How does anyone in this town think we can afford to buy land for our schools? My real estate tax is already 14k and I only live in an average home. How much can we taxpayers in town tolerate? Yes, we are a little lower than the 204 folks, but they should be trying to bring their taxes down instead of wanting our taxes to go up by forcing us to buy land for our schools when Ms. Martin Mitchell had good intentions and tried to take care of us. May God Bless the heart of this generous woman and continue her legacy if charity and giving in this Holiday Season.

I'm sorry to hear about your dog. If you owned the property before the Gun Club opened than you have a case. If you bought your home knowing about the Gun Club then you are out of luck. Buyer beware. Anyway D203 does not want to pay to clean up the lead and buckshot. You never know what you are going to run into doing a clean up and the costs will soar. The Scout Camp is even trickier with The Von Oven's and Mrs. Martin-Mitchell estate being the owners. Edward Hosp. isn't going to give up anything soon. And according to Howard the cemetry is doing well. D203 has to spend some money. I just read today that D204 is raising my taxes 4.5%. With all of the bail outs I should have bought a bigger house.

Since the gun club has been there for 70 years, I doubt that Anonymous 12/9/08 9:13pm was there before the club. Since the club is only open two days (Thurs 6-10, Sun 12-4) according to the web site, I have to wonder what your dogs are barking at. By the way, bullets are not used there, so that is not what your dogs are barking at all day and night.

As I said at the beginning of this thread, I have no problem with either garden plots or athletic fields as long as neither are used as an excuse to shut down a 70 year old gun club that people chose to build houses next to.

The Olympic commitee used a great line when they talked to the City of Chicago "You have to put some skin in the game". As of now D203 has put nothing in the game. If Naperville Central is really in need of land look at other options like moving the D203 Admin offices. They can rent something on Washington. Moving the Football field that sits sideways on the property. Better yet use North Central's Stadium. Use synthetic turf fields that they can be put in at Knoch Park and be used over and over again. Or buy and tear down some of the homes across the street. After all it is your problem. Your emergency should not be all of Naperville's problem. Again your past leaders created this problem, spend some money and solve it. Leave the Garden plots, The Gun Club, The Scout camp alone and leave Knoch Park open to all of Naperville.

Southsider,
Your motives are very obvious.

You can not justify spending one dollar you perceive is yours on District 203. How selfish of you, Southsider?

You have shown me that you are a very selfish human being.

What is more important a Gun Club or educating our young.

The GC occupies a lot of land. And now we have some guy named Ken saying it is only used 8 hours per week. Is this really the best use of land to fire blanks or firecracker or bee bee guns or whatever they fire there? I am anti-gun and feel strongly they should blow this SC up immediately.

And whatever noise comes out of that park rattles my cat. If it is not bullets, does anyone know what is causing the fire cracker sounds coming out of that SC? Are they firing blanks? And for what purpose?

Let us give this land to District 203. They need it. I am sure they can clean it for much cheaper than paying 3 million dollars an acre to buy land in that area where land is very very expensive.

It is the Season of Giving. I hope the City of Naperville gives up this land for a better and higher use that most residents can benefit from. Southsider must get in the Holiday Spirit, be generous and learn to give. Napervillians are known for their generoisty. I am glad SS is the exception and does not represent Napervillians.

If Mayor Pradel and the CC have no problem going against the Napergatians and giving developers the moom and the stars, they are not going to hesitate to give District 203 as much land as it wants. Fortunately, most of CM live in 203 and will be watching out for 203. It will be business as usual and you will have to eat your heart out just like the Napergatians do when they oppose the City Council!

Selfish? Who wants to get rid of the Gun Club to make their cat happy? That would be you! Who wants everybody in Naperville pay for your past D203 leaders mistakes? Again that would be you! When you start giving to the D204 fund I will help you out.

Anonymous on December 9, 2008 9:13 PM,

Sounds to me like you are trying to blame the Sportsman Club for your dogs lack of training and bad manners.

As pointed out above, they only shoot twice a week, and it is shotguns they use not rifles. Don't try to blame a legitimate long time entity for your dog barking incessantly. There are no secret bullets flying around day and night that only dogs can hear.

Fred,
What is the difference between a shot gun and a rifle? If no bullets are being fired, what is being fired. I did hear that many dogs are annoyed with these sounds even if only twice a week!

So now you changed to you heard that it dogs are annoyed twice a week. I thought your dog barked all day and night because of the Sportsman's club?

To answer your question, rifles fire bullets, shotguns fire buckshot (tiny BB's). A shotgun shoots a wide pattern of buckshot that loses velocity quickly. At a club such as the Sportsman's club, they shoot at clay targets (small discs) that are flung into the air by a machine at a high rate of speed. It actually takes a lot of skill to hit these moving targets.

As far as the sound, what you hear is the gun firing, not the bullet or buckshot. You really should do a little research before spouting off on a topic and jumping on your soapbox as not to look foolish.

1 practice field. That is all that Naperville Central will lose once they put down the synthetic turf on the football field. A practice field has nothing to do with education. The great students of NCHS will still have Math, Science and all of their other classes. Now D203 wants to displace the gardeners so that they can get 3 more fields (now they think that they can live w/ 2). That is greed. They are trying to bully the Park District and the gardeners so that they can make room for a club Lacrosse team that is doing fine on their own so that 80 to 100 students athletes in a school of 3000 in a town of 145,000 can benefit. The word Extra in Extracurricular Activities explaines it (not part of regular course of studies). That definition comes from my old copy of the American Heritage desktop dictionary. I don't think what the school district is doing is fair. If that is being selfish than so be it.

It would have been nearly impossible over 40 years ago for the school district to anticipate the growth and developement that Naperville has seen. That's why, in order to keep up with student population and the great athletic programs our schools offer, SD203 is in need of more land in close proximity to NCHS for their students. As a parent, I think that is a reasonable request. I would not want my young, new driver to drive a distance from the school in order to participate in an after-school sport if there was a chance that land close to the school could be used for that purpose.
I think the garden plots are a great and valued asset for our community. If the SD can use the land, couldn't the plots be relocated? And, if the plots could be relocated to several areas of town then they would be more accessible to the residents of the north and south ends of town.
In a community such as ours, I think it's important to work together to better our situation. We all benefit from growth and development, so why not work together to seek the best answer for all involved? Those on either side that throw out a resounding 'NO!' with no constructive alternative options or suggestions are just hindering progress.

Liz, It is not that simple anymore. The Naperville Park District takes money from all of Naperville. For the NPD to give park district assets to one school district over another is not fair. If D203 wants to keep up with the Jones they should buy land on their own. After all they are ony going to lose 1 practice field.

Lets turn this around. Now we are all taxpayers to the Naperville Park District. Put a value on the 6 acres of land that D203 wants. 3,5,10 million dollars, whatever amount. Now lets say the NPD is going to give $(insert dollar amount here)to Neuqua Valley High School and D204 for the sole use of the Wildcat Lacrosse team and great students of D204. After all it is for the chilren and we want it. Now tell me that nobody in D203 would complain that it is a misuse of Park District funds. Give me a break!

Southsider,

While I have posted in favor of the "plots-for-playing-fields" swap, I do see your point about the lack of fairness to non-203 members of the Park District. One thing that's not clear to me, though, is whether the park district is deeding this land to the District 203, or if they are just allowing the school district to "borrow" it. If it's a gift, then the school district should pay for it, one way or another. If it's not a gift, and if the park district still retains the option to use the new fields, then it's another case of the park district sharing facilities with the local school districts.

-JQP

JQP, If the Park District had playing fields there all ready then go ahead and use them. Knoch Park is used that way now. That I see as sharing facilities,the NPD and both school districts do that all of the time. But D203 wants to change the landscape to build these fields. That changes everything. If Dr Leis never asked for it, it would never have been a thought. Lets face it this is for the betterment of NCHS only. They will have exclusive use of these fields just like they do at Knoch Park. If nothing is done the NPD keeps a successful program in tact an cost the All NPD taxpayers nothing. Why is the NPD willing to pay $250,000?

I hope the Park District goes along with this plan. Saves the taxpayers of District 203 at least $3 million. As a 203 resident that does not live in the Naperville Park District (along with 30% of the rest of 203 by the way that are in Lisle, Bolingbrook, Woodridge and unincorporated areas), I am hoping that the Park District gives the schools this MAJOR BENEFIT. For once, I may benefit from the governmental mismanagement in Naperville.

Liz, to your point, District 203 HAD a chance to address this issue four years ago, buy a new high school site at the Meier property. There would have been plenty of space to build a high school comparable to Nequa and the new Mateo rather then trying to rennovate a dump (I think that was the school principal's description). Besides giving the 203 taxpayers a major break, the Park District will also bail out Leis's arrogance in ignoring this alternative.

Dan D, When the Park District blindly does this huge favor for D203, please go buy a Lotto ticket too. It will be your lucky day! P.S. Your Welcome!