Chris,

An easy solution is to refuse to publish posts which are received without a valid e-mail address. Anyone with an internet connectrion making posts to a blog can have an e-mail address. There are plenty of free services.

T.B.

Anon & Joe,

Thanks for your responses/corrections. Apparently I know just enough about this stuff to be dangerous, LOL.

One, thing, though Anonymous: when I refer to the "response" a blogger gets from a blog site, I am referring to the message containing the HTML and data that the blogger's browser uses to display the web page on the screen.

-JQP

JQP,

Network Address Translation ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_address_translation ) is one such scheme to allow the masquerading of user IP Addresses to the public internet.

Web SeTransparent Proxy - This type of proxy server identifies itself as a proxy server and also makes the original IP address available through the http headers. These are generally used for their ability to cache websites and do not effectively provide any anonymity to those who use them. However, the use of a transparent proxy will get you around simple IP bans. They are transparent in the terms that your IP address is exposed, not transparent in the terms that you do not know that you are using it (your system is not specifically configured to use it.)

Anonymous Proxy - This type of proxy server identifies itself as a proxy server, but does not make the original IP address available. This type of proxy server is detectable, but provides reasonable anonymity for most users.

Distorting Proxy - This type of proxy server identifies itself as a proxy server, but make an incorrect original IP address available through the http headers.

High Anonymity Proxy - This type of proxy server does not identify itself as a proxy server and does not make available the original IP address.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

JQP,

I believe based on the above it can be done. Bloggers don't get responses from a blog site. However, the Host can e-mail the the blogger if he leaves his e-mail address. Otherwise, I don't believe he can contact the blogger.

One more point about IP addresses, and if Web Guy is still following this thread he can confirm it: I doubt any ISP would mask an IP address sent to a website; or, at the very least, the ISP wouldn't use the same IP address for every user. The reason for this is that the ISP's servers need to know to which user the website's response needs to go.

-JQP

Chris –

Just curious, but what e-mails addresses was Cybil using? Were they different Hotmail accounts or something similar or different SBC addresses?

T.B.

Host Chris –

Anon's post on 01/01/09 @ 7:50 PM is right on the money.

I’ve come to learn that the Napergatians (is there more than one?) claim to be against any government waste, but they focus their attention on waste within the city budget and ignore possible waste in the school districts. I found this to be odd since the schools account for a much larger share of our tax dollars than the city.

Napergatians have some quirks, too. Their posts are often based more on emotion than fact, they support conspiracy theories without any factual basis, and they appear to have severe anti-police (and fire) department beliefs.

Oh, and if you dare to disagree with them (however many there may be) on anything, you're labeled an Establishment person. The best I can figure, they seem to think an Establishment person is someone who is for the status quo and doesn't mind if the old established names in Naperville (like the Wherli's) get some type of preferential treatment. I don’t think I’ve ever met someone who fits this description.

And independence isn’t tolerated by the Napergatians. You’re either for them or against them. There’s no middle ground.

Just my observations.

T.B.

It appears that the drama has now moved on to another venue. Look for the black helicopters circling to find the focus of the next conspiracy theory.

Rambo, your last comment actually made me laugh out loud and I bet you are not too far from the truth.

I am late to the game here, so I don't know what all the Napergate/Establishment fanfare is about and I really don't feel this is the forum to educate oneself on those topics. If these people really feel there are wrongs that deserve to be righted, I hope they are doing more than the regular back and forth drama we see here. With the extent of efforts put forth here, attending City meetings and working within the community to bring forth changes would be a much better use of their time. But then if that happened, what would some of these people have to complain about?

It's pretty easy, Keyboard. The napergate person and all his/her/its personalities identified itself as a government hating individual, and labeled anyone that disagreed with him/her/it as an establishment person. The two groups were both labeled by one very disturbed person.

I wish we could get a concrete definition on what "Napergatian" and "Establishment" even mean.

Labeling people as "Establishment" reminds me of a bunch of college kids listening to Bob Marley while smoking a hookah and talking about how the man is keeping them down.

Hello Clarice...

Such nonsense. Like we need to choose one or the other of your stupid scenarios. Your smoke and mirrors will not deflect your delusional, narcissistic and attention starved behavior. Average try, at best. Just dig your hole larger and deeper, as anyone that had any level of respect for you loses that respect more and more with each of your comments. Yes, BHO, you did have some in-depth knowledge about facts and circumstances in regard to politics and possibly some religion(?), but no one cares anymore, as it's too difficult to look beyond your immensely annoying and hugely comical persona (plural).

What I find most interesting is how this narcissistic behavior allows BHO and, ummm...friends to think he/she/it is still great, still sought after and still right. Longest winded and right, no? Longest winded and totally stuck in it's own power-hungry loneliness. We come back for the macabre continuing antics of a sad individual (plural) that can't let go of the little notoriety that it had, at one time.

I am not "Establishment", I am not "Napergatian", never have been, never will be. We are simply laughing AT you BHO, not with you.

Establishment Bloggers,

Let us assume for arguments sake the Establishment population is right and the anti-establishment is wrong.

Let us assume Caroline is a 5'2" grandmother who is 75 years old and retired. Her husband was murdered. She is lonely and was never able to conceive. She spends most of her retired years watching broadcast news and reading newspapers while gaining incredible knowledge.

THIS GRANDMOTHER HAS HER OWN VIEWS OF THE WORLD:

1. She admires the President of the United States and wants to be him since he kicked the white Establishment out of the white White House.

2. She admires the Governor of Illinois because he stood up to the entire Establishment.

3. She admires the Napergatians because they stood up to the Establishment.

4.She admires Furstenau because he stood up to the Establishment.

5.She has no kids and lost her husband to a murder. She is angry with religion because nothing good ever happens to her and blames religion for the loss of her beloved husband. She lost her faith and became an Agnostic and decided to preach Agnosticism until she converts to Atheism.

6. She hates Federal, State and County prosecutors plus all police because a thug killed her husband and he was never apprehended or prosecuted. In her mind, they did her injustice.

And somehow this petite grandma goes on a 2.5 year rampage playing the President of the United States to an Agnostic Priest and everything in between as 300 different characters literally undetected for that entire length of time.

If this really happened this old depressed, wrinkled and retired Grandma took every blogger for a ride and made a fool out of each and every one of them. Yes, there were people who had suspicions at times but she wrapped them around her little fingers when they strayed in disbelief and put them back in her palm where she made them believe in her again. Over and over again!

If this is the scenario she apparently made a fool of former Moderator Jim and former Host Ted for over 2 years. Possibly a fool of current Host Chris for a month or two.

This really is the alternative hypothetical scenario that I have a hard time believing. That this Grandma Caroline would be the Mother of all Keyboard Rambos. Give her lots of credit. She puts Keyboard Rambos Ken and TB to shame.

Basically, if you accept this hypothetical version, you have to accept that Grandma Caroline took the entire establishment bloggers for a roller coaster ride and they were clueless. What does that really say about the numerous so called "intellectual bloggers" on the Sun Blog site if this hypothetical scenario was true? Could not one single blogger call her out in 2.5 years? Without a little IP help no one could really call her out....she was clever....she was deceptive.....she was able to play any character her heart desired.....she was knowledgeable.....she was manipulative...she was brainwashing. She was Blog Time's Lady of the Year!

How could so many Sun Bloggers not be able to tell for so long that Grandma Caroline was playing 300 characters while at the same time claiming they could detect unique and unusual handwriting styles?

If this hypothetical scenario I described is a possibility than this Grandma Caroline won a debate against hundreds of Establishmentarians single handedly while making fools of each and every one of them almost without exception as they took her bait and swallowed....and did they ever SWALLOW!

The other potential scenario is that there were hundreds of bloggers actually supporting her while she played quite a few characters herself.

I guess the Establishment Folks have to decide which poison pill they want to swallow while Ann E. drinks her Kool-Aid.

Take your choice folks... There is no good ending to this story. Except for Grandma Caroline who got the Mother of All Rises while keyboarding instead of knitting. Give the Grandma the credit she deserves. She was truly amazing! She single handedly made this Blog Site the number one blog site in the Sun Group of newspapers. Her rise will last for the rest of her life as she returns to her old hobby of knitting instead of threading......now can anyone really argue that threading is not more fun than knitting. Present your arguments if you disagree. The floor is yours my friends.

Southside Johnny,

If you don't have any kind of antivirus, I'd recommend Avast. Download it for free here, all you have to do is put in your email address- http://avast.com/eng/download-avast-home.html

Something else you can try is following this tutorial- http://www.bleepingcomputer.com/tutorials/tutorial101.html

Bleeping Computer is a great site with all kinds of tutorials written for beginners in simple easy to follow steps. If you're still having problems, you can follow this guide and post your specific problems for help using this guide- http://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/topic34773.html

If none of this helps, your problem is probably more complicated and I would suggest taking it in somewhere or getting someone to come take a look at it.

Also, before the one man Napergate band decides to come here to post some long-winded rebuttal about SBC's imaginary proxy service I posted about before, I suggest calling them yourself if you don't believe me- 1-877-SBC-DSL5

Web Guy,

Do you know how to get rid of the Trojan Virus on a computer? We just got infected by it on our home computer and I would like to know the esiest way to get it off.

Thanks Web Guy!

Holy Lamb, Batman! Barack and facets apparently needed a better New Years Eve party to go to, or maybe they were all having their own party, each splinter drinking their own beverage of choice with him up in his bedroom, or down in his basement with friend laptop.

A little thought, Barack—the computer is not your friend, it's a machine. The computer will not keep you company, it's cold and heartless. Living life exclusively in computer-land can do some weird stuff to the user's perception, and obviously mental status and cognition. Is it the cart or the horse? Were you this way before you started living here, or did living here make you this way?

I wonder how many other blogs take up Barack and facets' time and life, perhaps he needs an intervention. How far will this type of behavior take someone, how many hours and hours and years can be spent spinning like this, requiring living in total defensive mode?

By the way, we have not heard from Herd? Anyone? Bueller? I understand that Herd has a different IP and I admit I am wrong if I am wrong about that, my bad. Unfortunately Barack and facets bring on this type of suspicion themselves, and there is something funky-similar about the comment with language and CAPS and EXCLAMATION COMMENTS!! Even similar back from BHO's early posts. Perhaps it was a road trip with friend laptop and for us to hear from Herd again, Barack must take another road trip to duplicate the IP. Go ahead now Barack, I have admitted I could be wrong about this, but call me whatever you would like, I realize you can't help yourself at this point. I also realize you are stressed and life is exhausting when one must keep a flow-chart to keep all your stories straight. That could make anyone a little cranky and off.

Happy New Year, everyone--facets and all ( :

"Based on the data you provided it seems SBC/ATT/AMERITECH switched from an Anonymous Proxy to a WebSeTransparent Proxy or Distorting Proxy some time in 2008 which could explain why the users went from having one number to individual numbers."

No.

SBC doesn't run any kind of proxies for their customers. My parents have the same kind of SBC DSL as the one man Napergate clan. They have a unique IP I can connect to from my house.

Most ISP's don't run proxies like the ones you're claiming they do because the headaches of dealing with customers who want to know why remote desktop services such as GoToMyPC.com, any kind of voice over IP like Skype, video conferencing like OoVoo.com, or anything else that requires a direct connection to your computer doesn't work.

From an administration standpoint, everything that you'd want to route people through a proxy for can be done in other ways while saving the functionality of the above applications by allowing customers to have their own unique external IP address.

There are few reasons to use proxies outside of being a tin foil hat wearing nutjob who really really wants to remain as anonymous as possible online, or if you're doing something illegal/malicious and didn't want to get caught.

Tah Dah.

Web SeTransparent Proxy - This type of proxy server identifies itself as a proxy server and also makes the original IP address available through the http headers. These are generally used for their ability to cache websites and do not effectively provide any anonymity to those who use them. However, the use of a transparent proxy will get you around simple IP bans. They are transparent in the terms that your IP address is exposed, not transparent in the terms that you do not know that you are using it (your system is not specifically configured to use it.)

Anonymous Proxy - This type of proxy server identifies itself as a proxy server, but does not make the original IP address available. This type of proxy server is detectable, but provides reasonable anonymity for most users.

Distorting Proxy - This type of proxy server identifies itself as a proxy server, but make an incorrect original IP address available through the http headers.

High Anonymity Proxy - This type of proxy server does not identify itself as a proxy server and does not make available the original IP address.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Host Chris,
I found the above information on a link TB provided on another thread.

Based on the data you provided it seems SBC/ATT/AMERITECH switched from an Anonymous Proxy to a WebSeTransparent Proxy or Distorting Proxy some time in 2008 which could explain why the users went from having one number to individual numbers.

I think when SBC was an Anonymous Proxy it was giving all SBC/ATT/AMERITECH users the same IP number for all users to recipients.

Now that it switched to either WebSeTransparent or Distorting or a combination it is giving either accurate IPs or incorrect Original IPs. Hard to believe the system could be this erratic but it is. It apparently does not want to be reliable for some reason.

There really is a possibility or probability Barack is not Caroline as Caroline is stating. They don't even have the same IP address. And even though Diana and Barack at one time ended with the same IP address there is no way in the world from their writing styles they are the same person. Very very different styles of writing and personalities!

I also don't think it is possible that Caroline could be the entire Napergate or Anti-Establishment Nation. I am sure that is impossible. But I do believe there is a possibility she may have used more than one name on different threads.

It appears on the thread she was being hounded on, she only used one name as she stated. I do believe you indirectly or directly called her shady implying she may have used another handle to complement herself on that same thread. It appears she did not and you were mistaken in your thoughts until you had a chance to check the IP address which confirmed you were mistaken. My guess is another Napergatian posting under Herd Something complemented her. I think in the interest of full disclosure you should have provided that IP number as opposed to deliberately not providing it in order to make her look guiltier than she may have been.....assuming she had used a different name on a different thread which I believe you stated at one point you had no problem with.

Reading that thread again, Caroline never said she did not use another name on another thread. What she emphasized repeatedly was that on that specific thread she was only blogging as Caroline even though bloggers did not believe her.

Using logic one has to believe her. She had used her same name several times indicating strongly she was not trying to be multiple people to get her point across in a stronger manner. Everyone was against her views. Every blogger thought she was the Herd Blogger patting herself on the back. Every blogger was wrong!

She simply had ONE SUPPORTER and that supporter was not her....he was most probably a fellow NAPERGATIAN or Anti-Establishment guy. For sure his views were strong anti-Establishment. Possibly stonger than even hers. When he said SHE WAS CORRECT all bloggers assumed wrongfully it was the same person. All bloggers were bending over themselves to brag about how they can decipher reading styles. None could! All really showed they were infallible...especially this ANN.E lady who repeatedly has been claiming she can tell one blogger from another. She said she would not be fooled again by a Barack type but then a Herd plays her for a fool second time. I thought that was funny.

Both these 2 unique Anti-Establishment posters took a little stab at the Host which led everyone including the Host(initially) to think they were the same person. The Host in my opinion could not tell whether it was the same person or not initially. But I suspect he beleived it was the same person and when he checked the IP number he realized it was not the same person but did not reveal it publicly until pressed by Caroline repeatedly to be fair. The Host came through and decided to be fair.

In the meantime the other bloggers aroused themselves to a hysterically frantic level as the clock approached midnight and a New Year was upon us. My 2 cents worth for whatever it is worth on this first day of the New Year.

Here is a site where you can find your internet IP address.

What is my IP Address.com; http://www.whatismyip.com/

Go to this site and your IP will appear at the top. Every time I check, it is the same. I went through my computer notes, and that is the same internet IP I have had since I signed up with my provider 3 years ago.

An IP number is how your computer is identified, how you get your Email, how the cops find criminals such as online pedophiles.

There are ways to change your ip, but most people wouldn't have a clue how to do it, which is obvious in this,case, as the only way to have multiple names with the same IP spread over that amount of time is if it is the same computer.

There are billions of possible IP combination's. The chances of the same one being assigned to 30 people in one town in this short a time frame is about the same as picking the winning Mega Million numbers twice in one month.

By Naperville Sun editors on December 31, 2008 10:46 PM
I don't know why you go to such elaborate lengths to disguise your ID on this site. You are well informed on local and national issues and can contribute to the discussion, but I don't know why you can't do it under just one name like everyone else, and why you think the deception is necessary.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

A few more quick remarks.

Since everyone is posting as Anonymous how could there be real deception. Everyone seems to be pretending they are another person. Can you name 5 bloggers who are actually themselves. Being Anonymous is deceptive and it is allowed on this Blog Site. Why call out one group? Call out all groups?

I bet there are bloggers that posted under 100 handle phrases in the last 2 years. Why not call them out, too?

As far as your allegation of disguise, I thought eveyone was disgusing themselves on this site.

I think you may be inadvertently destroying your blog site by requiring people not to disguise themselves with phony names, funny names, phrases or whatever. I think you need to set down the rules for you blog site. And ask people to obey them if that is what you desire.

You can not allow people to post as different persons from blog to blog and then say they are disguising themselves. You specifically permitted that and now you are blasting one group for allegedly doing what you permitted.

Finally this blog site has been nothing but fun and a riot. Why take away the fun and riot? Let the Establishmentarians and Napergatians have fun going after each other. Let us Observers enjoy them going after each other. It is not only fun but we are learning quite a lot and getting a great education in city, state and national politics. And when Barack chips in, we learn about world politics and religion. What more can you ask for?

You got the best blog...so why tamper with it...let it keep rolling!

Happy New Year to Everyone!

By Naperville Sun editors on December 31, 2008 9:51 PM
If you'd like I can provide a detailed list of similar phrases from different posts with different identities.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't doubt you could do that.

But I also don't doubt you could also find similar phrases from different Establishment bloggers if you wanted to. They seem to repeat each other like parakeets also. When one said Caroline is the Herd, a dozen of them said something in similar phrases in the span of an hour.

These similar phrases could be from the same people or different people using similar phrases.

A very good prosecutor can convict an innocent person and have him sent to prison. A very good defense attorney can find a guilty person innocent such as in the OJ case!

You have decided to investigate the Napergatians. I don't doubt that some Napergatians changed identities. I don't doubt that some Napergatians kept their own identities. There was no rule that said you had to keep your same identity on this blog site. What violation was committed?

If one Napergatian was 40 as you allege which is possible, were the other 260, ten or twenty or 260.

If what you are saying is true, than a whole bunch of people wrote books in one year on this blog site. Or could it be possible that one person wrote a 50 Volume Encyclopedia single handedly? I thought it took hundreds of people years to write Encyclopedia Brittanica. Am I wrong?

I guess to be fair you should investigate the Establishment and provide us with who is who. It seems like the Establishment enjoys using phrase handles to pat themselves on the back. It is odd that these phrases only take place once. How many bloggers just blog once on a blog site? I almost think hardly any bloggers only blog once....therefore these phrase handles are bloggers posting as multiple persons. Why don't you let us know which Establishment bloggers have pulled this stunt? I bet over 50. How many Establishment Folks blog under a name and than come back as Anonymous to pad themselves on the back? I bet over a 100. It is game that is played on all blog sites...not just this one. I hope you know that, Host!

I think if you want to keep this blog site credible you need to do a full investigation on the Establishment side. I guarantee you it will be more messy than the Napergate side. But are you willing to investigate both sides equally?

Fairness will keep this blog site vibrant and successful. If you are going to side with the Establisment and be biased, I suspect your Blog Site will eventually go down the tubes. You will have the Establishment patting each other on the back and after a week they will get tired and leave.

You gave the Napergatians a doze of medicine. They obviously are not perfect but did not break any rules if what you are alleging is true...that is yet to be seen as more evidence may yet surface.

I think it is now important for you to give the Establishmentarians a doze of equal medicine and call them out for each and every time they impostered. Are you going to tell me they never impostered? If you do, I will doubt you.

You seem like an intelligent if not brilliant man. Very capable of investigative work. Very observant. But again if you side with one group over another you could easily destroy your blog site.

I think you need to do some serious investigative work and expose the tactics of the Establishmentarians. Are they 1 person, 2 persons, 5 person or a dozen posting as it seems 100 or more people? At one time there was only 5 of them for nearly 2 years. Now they have grown in multiples suddenly like an experimental cell in a biological laboratory duplicating itself endlessly.

I suspect the Establishmentarians may have caught on to the game some Napergatians may have been playing and began playing the same game. If you want to bust b@lls and retain your credibility and reputation, you need to bust the b@lls of both sides equally and fairly without bias.

Time for me to join everyone else for the New Years Eve Party!

By the way my IP address is 75-56-61-209. I must be in a different section of Naperville since they gave me a 56 instead of 57. I think everyone should post their IP addresses from now on in order to maintain credibility. I will be posting mine from this point on each and evey time.

I would like to see the Host adopt Original Joe's idea of posting all IP addresses in each post so we can stop the nonsense from both sides and build a reputable and distinguished blog site.

Looking forward to your full and honest report on the other side so that you can also maintain your credibility as an honest and neutral broker.

It would defy logic if the other side was also not impostering. I will wager you any amount of money they have been but you have not YET put the effort to bust them. Good luck! I hope you make it your first assignment of the New Year.

Actually, Caroline/Marshall/etc, my son-in-law could explain it till he was blue in the face, and I wouldn't get it. I am extremely computer illiterate, and have no problem admitting it. He did, however, get a big laugh out of what you posted about IP numbers, and how they work.

By Naperville Sun editors on December 31, 2008 9:51 PM
When you first were on this site, you were changing your name but using the same IP address. At some point you likely realized this could be traced and are now doing something to change your address slightly.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Web Incompetent,

If you were really a Web Guy you would have told Host Chris that you simply can not change your address a little or slightly. You have absolutely no control over that.

The first 4 digits is a designation for the provider. So they will be the same for everyone with the same provider. The rest of the numbers after the first 4 digits are for the individual and strictly assigned and controlled by the provider and not the individual.

You actually know the truth if you are really a Web Guy. And if you are you simply don't want Host Chris to know the truth as it feeds into your desire to bash others.

Happy New Year.

Mr Chris,

I just read your last post and respectfully disagree.

Here is my IP number 75.57.130.166

The only similarity it has to Caroline's which is 75.57.78.149 is the first 4 digits. Everyone with SBC apparently starts off with 75-57. So the wrongful assumption you made is that the 40 Napergatians with SBC service are the same person. I beg to differ with you.

I think it should be apparent to you after 12 bloggers thought Carol was Herd and Herd was Carol that it is not easy to interpret handwriting styles.

No one can alter their IP number by a few digits as you allege. Even Web Guy who is against us could probably confirm to you that a user can not alter his IP address by a few numbers. IMPOSSIBLE! Users are assigned their IP addresses by the Provider and have absolutely no control over their IP addresses or an ability to alter them. Can one alter their phone number? It is the same concept. It is assigned to you until the provider decides to change it. Only they can change it. You can not!

Why don't you call SBC on Friday and they will verify the first 4 digits of these numbers are not only the same for all Napergatians but all Napervillians who use SBC/ATT and their sister companies. That should solve the puzzle and mystery once and for all.

I think it will prove to you that it is not that easy to decipher writing styles even though you think you can. I bet if your news reporters wrote stories without identifying themselves you would not know who was who. Their stories all seem to have the exact same writing style with the same size paragraphs and indentation. Only the name allows us to tell which reporter wrote which article.

Happy New Year.

Hahaha! Ken, I had a post half way typed out suggesting that you get your son in law to post here so he could be told by arm chair experts with multiple personality disorder how wrong he is! I stopped half way to finish getting ready to leave to go to a New Years party and decided I'd refresh the page before posting to see if there was anything new...

And sure enough!

This is seriously just unbelievable. These people (or this person, I should say!) will stop at nothing to "prove" they are right.

"I would like to see Host Chris do a more recent study after SBC developed some encrypted security that could protect IP addresses if they are released and in fact are now being released to recipients"

Please tell me what drugs you are on to make you believe things like this. Honestly, you guys are just making stuff up now.

Anyway, the only ammo they have against me and my uh, knowing how the internet works, is my response to this paragraph by Barack/Diana/Howard-

As I said you are nothing but a Web Farbricator who uses mumble jumble language to confuse the naive. My ATT repairman explained to me how it works and it does not work as you explained. He is an expert.....you are a phony web fabricator bloggin on the interent. He got paid 173 dollars for his visit which lasted a half an hour. It does not seem your talent commands any price as you are spewing it all for free since no one is willing to retain you or pay you for your nonsense.

He got paid. Note the "he". Barack/Diana/Howard clearly said HE, with the understood subject of the sentence being the REPAIR TECHNICIAN got paid $173 for a half hour of his time. Unless of course, in wacky napergate land, AT&T is a masculine company and Barack/Diana/Howard talks about companies using gender specific pronouns.

But, once again, just another example of the Napergate one-man treehouse club going to any length to win an argument, even if it means making things up or disregarding your entire post except for one sentence.

Off to my New Years party, I'm already running late! Stay crazy, Napergate weirdos! You make my work day that much more exciting getting my daily dose of WTF.

Marshall on December 31, 2008 9:32 PM
Maryann on December 31, 2008 9:41 PM

___________________________________

Game, Set, Match.... Good bye Napergatian!

This display reminds me of an old joke:

Roses are red
Violets are blue
I'm schizophrenic
and so am I

By Fred on December 31, 2008 9:04 PM
It is also funny how nonwe of the cast of characters Caroline claims isn't her have rushed to her defense in their usual fashion. One would think that if they weren't all figures of his/her imagination, they would be the first to dispute it.

____________________________________________________________________

Don't be so fast Freddy Boy! I have blogged a few times recently and Host Chris is welcome to check my recent IP address. It may have changed since I have turned my computer on and off but the chance it will match Caroline's is probably one in a million if hers cycled to me or vice versa.

I don't know how to look my IP number up, but Host Chris can reveal it and provide it to the all bloggers if he desires. He has got my permission. I have nothing to hide.

I have no doubt all those who have been accused wrongfully will surface and once again challenge the Establishment Bloggers and set the record straight.

" He did some sort of search using the IP numbers posted, and confirmed that Chris is right, not that I ever doubted him."

Very interesting, Ken. Why don't you tell us exactly what your brother in law said assuming you had the comprehension to understand him. I don't think Host Chris has come to any conclusions yet. I think he is exploring and learning like most of us.

I am a Napergatian who posted hundreds of times the last 2 years. No one has ever used my name but myself.

I am writing simply to allow Host Chris to confirm that my IP address is not the same as Carolines.

I suspect when the new year starts and people are no longer on vacation, you can ask every Napergatians to volunteer his IP address and they would be happy to do it for the Host.

Regardless of what your brother in law said, it is well known that some providers do not release the IP addresses of users to the recipient. SBC/ATT which is the largest Provider in the region was apparently using one IP number for all users back in the days.

I would like to see Host Chris do a more recent study after SBC developed some encrypted security that could protect IP addresses if they are released and in fact are now being released to recipients

I would like other Napergatians to provide their internal IP addresses to Host Chris.

Anyway, since Caroline provided her IP number, here is mine 57-201-204 as it appears internally and on my computer. Since it appears SBC is releasing them to the recipients, Host Chris can confirm.

It is also funny how nonwe of the cast of characters Caroline claims isn't her have rushed to her defense in their usual fashion. One would think that if they weren't all figures of his/her imagination, they would be the first to dispute it.

Just an add on to the oblivious Caroline, who is apparently the whole napergate cult.

I am visiting my daughter out of state, and she is married to a guy whose job is computer security for a major bank. After TB mentioned that Caroline's multiple personalities could just be a server for her provider labeling her posts and other's with the same provider with the same IP, I asked my son-in-law about it. He did some sort of search using the IP numbers posted, and confirmed that Chris is right, not that I ever doubted him.

I find it funny that Caroline is trying to ignore the fact that everyone knows she is the lone napergate poster under many names. It is even funnier watching her post that she is somehow vindicated because Chris pointed out that he never said she was Herd Will be Fooled. I only wish that I was her psychiatrist, and could charge for each personality.

Since Chris asked us to move the multiple name one IP user comments over here, this may appear to be a comment out of the blue, but here goes:

I find it funny that the person accused of being multiple posters is only trying to show that he/she/it is not Herd Will Be Fooled, and is not denying all the other names he/she/it posted under.

I also find it amusing that someone has claimed under many different names that I am doing what he/she/it is actually doing.

Overall, as Fred said, the napergatians have taken a huge credibility hit, and as The Establishment said, I haven't laugheed so hard in quite a while.

From Dictionary.com

libel  /ˈlaɪbəl/ [lahy-buhl]
noun, verb, -beled, -bel⋅ing or (especially British) -belled, -bel⋅ling.
–noun
1. Law.
a. defamation by written or printed words, pictures, or in any form other than by spoken words or gestures.
b. the act or crime of publishing it.
c. a formal written declaration or statement, as one containing the allegations of a plaintiff or the grounds of a charge.
2. anything that is defamatory or that maliciously or damagingly misrepresents.
–verb (used with object)
3. to publish a libel against.
4. to misrepresent damagingly.
5. to institute suit against by a libel, as in an admiralty court.

slander /ˈslændər/ [slan-der]
–noun
1. defamation; calumny: rumors full of slander.
2. a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report: a slander against his good name.
3. Law. defamation by oral utterance rather than by writing, pictures, etc.
–verb (used with object)
4. to utter slander against; defame.
–verb (used without object)
5. to utter or circulate slander

defamation /ˌdɛfəˈmeɪʃən/[def-uh-mey-shuhn]
–noun
the act of defaming; false or unjustified injury of the good reputation of another, as by slander or libel; calumny

Howard—

Given what was said by Diana about me, I think I was more than civil. Why is it that Anon and you call on me to be more civil, but ignore the inflammatory language by Diana? You ask Host Chris for equal and fair treatment, yet you apparently can’t practice what you preach.

I appreciate the benefit of the doubt, but if you catch up enough to read Diana’s post from 12/24/08 at 6:53 a.m. you’ll see that Diana didn’t innocently mix up my comments with Ken’s. She was arguing with Ken and deliberately pulled me into the mix with “And I really should not single Ken out. His buddy TB was just as bad, vicious and cruel during my 2 week experience on this blog site. Those 2 men are just not fit to blog. They are very well known libelists that should be sued by every blogger they attacked.” I’m not the one throwing around libel accusations, she is.

While I realize that there’s no harm to anyone’s “REAL reputation”, as you put it, I think you’ll agree that if people aren’t civil on these threads no real discussion can take place.

T.B.

Thanks for you comments.

I do believe that libel can apply to both private and public figures. I believe there is a higher threshold if you are a public figure. In other words they can not be libeled that easily. A private citizen can be libeled a little easier. One reason former Moderator Jim did not want to publish the documents about the Napergate Man provided by Diana as he is somewhere between a private citizen and a public figure.

However I think libel does not apply to any of the anonymous bloggers on this site since they are not real people, can not be identified, and their reputations can not be harmed.

However I think they can libel known Naperville Editors, the Mayor, the City Council or someone like the Napergate Man who are all REAL people.

Host Chris,

I see Diana cooled off and heeded your warning.

I see Napergate Anonymous went back to discuss the budget and pension after Establishment Anonymous made that recommendation.

And here we have TB and Fred wanting to reignite the situation after you calmed it down. Even Ken calmed down! I thought you had the problem licked.

But I am noticing Host Chris after each Napergate off topic post, the poster gets reprimanded or admonished or at least reminded he is off topic.

TB and Fred who are posting off subject after the Napergatians were quieted down are getting a free pass. Why!

Again it amazes me that it is the Napergatians that are accused of constantly being off topic. They are not. They seem to rather be discussing pension deficits and budget deficits. When Ken disagrees with them he goes off on the Napergate Man and the his "cultist" Napergatians. This is really the history in a synopsis of all these senseless battles the Establishment Folks start because they simply don't want any publicity on the $70 million deficits that city sunk us in. It is a great DIVERSION TACTIC for them. They don't want the general public to know how bad their public officials have performed. They want to protect them and get them re-elected. They want to derail the debate and attack the Napergatians instead of their message. That really is the problem, Host Chris. It seems like it never ends. Please try to observe and you will see what I am talking about.

I did not want to write about this topic but since TB and Fred are still discussing it using inflammatory language including accusing others of being liars, I just wanted you to ask them to get back on subject. Just like you ask the Napergatians. Let us be fair to both sides!

While I am not a libel attorney, I do believe calling someone a liar is libel. That really is a very strong term to call someone. If Diana innocently mixed up TB and Ken's comments it really does not make her a liar. It just means she needs to do a better job of reviewing before she writes. Maybe she will! I hope so! Assuming TB is right and Diana innocently mixed some comments up. I don't know. I was off for a few weeks so I have not fully caught up yet. I am simply giving TB the benefit of the doubt. But he needs to be civil in his comments. He seems like he has a very short fuse that goes off almost instantly when he sees his name in any post. It is almost like he forgets that he, TB, is anonymous and no real damage is being done to his REAL reputation.

Again the purpose of my letter was to ask you to admonish both Napergatians and Establishmentarians eqaually and fairly. They both deserve admonishment for getting off topic. Yes, I am a Napergatian and would like to ask my fellow Napergatians to show a higher standard. Please try to ignore the derogatory comments and stay focused on the subjects at hand that concern our city and our future. We can not allow others to derail us so easily. What does that say about us?

The Napergate Man I recall when he went after the city legal department was completely focused. He got the data from the out of control legal budget, put it in colorful and clear graphs, published it in Napergate Ads and accused the city legal department of being a runaway locomotive wasting taxpayer hard earned dollars. He was able to get his message across to the populance rather easily. Why can't we be effective like he was? I agree with some of our critics that we are not being as effective as we can...we are being derailed over and over again by the likes of Ken, TB and now Fred. Let us fix our tracks and stay on them. Please!

And I do feel bad for what you are going through, Host Chris. I do not envy the situation you have been thrust in.

Warmest Regards!

Fred,

While I understand the point you are trying to make, it does not 'bury the hatchet' so to speak.

A clean break is just that... let go of what was. No one needs the 'final word' because the final word is never spoken in a city that lives on.

The rules are spelled out for here, let's everyone take the ball and run with it going forward.

On the immediate agenda is who is running for Council. What do they stand for and what angles are they coming from? Some may or may not have a 'platform' so to speak. That's OK; and I personally would consider that a good thing. It's been said that double-digit number of people threw their hats into the ring.

What are our choices come April?

Links to these blog topics should be emailed to anyone thinking of moving to Naperville because it's such a highly rated community. City council problems with huge financial deficits. City council members attempting to sue the city that employs them, while keeping a seat on the council. (That's a good one!) School district problems with residents fighting amongst themselves and with the school boards. Park district issues. Residents fighting residents in every topic here, the NAPERVILLE blogs.

Of course there are problems in every community, but this takes the cake...such a highly rated community indeed. Don't buy here, unless you have plenty of cash to add to your monthly mortgage payment for property taxes, and more so in the years to come! And, I guess you also must pick sides, Napergatian or otherwise, as it's all the community seems to care to discuss, according to this blog.

Perhaps prospective Naperville home buyers should drive on by to Oswego, I hear the schools are incredibly less expensive to build there, and amazingly the kids are getting into college, as well!

I hope for the new year ( I know, wrong thread) that Chris gets it through the Napergatians heads that this isn't their blog site and they have to follow the rules also. TB's post above is a prime example of how they think the rules only apply to anyone who dares disagree. They attack, yet if one dares to defend, then they want the rules followed, and as TB stated, never admonish one of their own. In fact they give them atta boys and kudos.

I know now why when you look up Lemming in the dictionary, it says 'see Napergatian'.

Anon--

I'm not trying to reignite Diana, but I also won't sit back and let Diana spout off with her lies. I asked her very simply and very politely to tell me why she believes I am “vicious and cruel”, a “useless and worthless” member of society, or where I ever libeled her or anyone else.

But she's not attacking my positions or opinions, she's attacking me personally which is just what Host Chris does not want on these threads. I'm not trying to paint myself as a victim here, I am one. Please tell me how the above comments aren't personal attacks?

And how did I respond to her? I was polite. I asked her why she thought the way she did. I did not attack her or call her names. I offered to apologize if she could show me where I did what she believed.

How come you're chastising me for allegedly reigniting Diana (a bad assumption by you) in violation of Host Chris' new rules, but there's no similar note to Diana for her ignition to begin with? Napergatinas seem to have their own "thin blue line" of never saying anything negative about each other, no matter how out of bounds they may be. Why is that? Aren’t there times where a public rebuke is in order so that one bad apple doesn’t set the tone for the entire group? Silence is mute consent.

I'll make a similar offer to you as I did with Diana since you've decided to parrot the Napergatian talking point that I somehow speak in circles. Where? When? Point it out for me. Show me what I wrote that you don't understand. Do you have an example or are you simply mimicking another's opinion? Perhaps I wasn't clear on a point and I can straighten it out for you.

And I wasn't on vacation. I had no interest in joining in the raging Diana and Ken back and forth. I saw it as fruitless.

T.B..

Thank you!

Thus it ended April 30, 2008 and the huge stock market losses are not reflected in the pension numbers CM Bob has kindly provided on this site a while back.

I suspect our pension deficit currently could be over 85 million dollars.

I don't think the city will admit to how large the deficit really is before they are required to release the annual report next summer.

I have little doubt the next report will be shocking. Too bad we can not get a mid year status report telling us the truth before the next election.

I hope CM Bob can get us a mid year status report on the status of our pension fund defict before the next elections.

The residents need to evaluate the performance of our current council members in a fair manner and should be armed with all the facts.

The above numbers provided by CM Bob may actually be from before we had the major market collapse which started in early Oct. If our fiscal year ended on Aug 31 or Sept 30, the numbers are much worse by now. Maybe Councilman Bob or the Naperville Sun Editors can tell us when the fiscal year ends so we understand how bad our situation really is.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Does anyone in the Naperville Sun know when the last city fiscal year ended?

It would be interesting to know if this $61.4 million pension fund deficit is pre-market collapse or post-market collapse. The majority of the collapse in the market took place after Oct. 1, 2008. If it is pre-market collapse it could be 40% worse or roughly 86 million dollars in the red hole. And that does not even included the operating budget defict which may put us over a 100 million in the red hole!

TB,

Host Chris wanted us to stop this bickering and dickering. Why are you trying to reignite Diana after she was settled down?

Taking a time where you many have been on vaction and saying you posted 3 times and she posted 13 times is an unfair comparison.

If you start from Day 1, you may have 1000-2000 posts while Diana may have 50-100 posts. By taking something out of context you can distort any situation. If I recall correctly, this is one of your traits that disturbed the Napergatians. I remember them saying you could never talk straight.....always in circles. Always trying to paint yourself as the innocent victim, just like your twin Ken!

I think you proved the Napergatian's point.

Now let us discuss our deficits, tax waste, pension problems and high taxes as another Anonymous suggested a few posts back. Attacking others in order to stroke your ego is counterproductive. That is why bloggers resemble you to Ken.

At some point Host Chris successfully ended the hostility. You come back from vacation after Host Chris spent days putting out the fire, in a deliberate, calculated and shameful attempt to reignite it. Common TB, please have some respect for the Host. He is trying very hard to keep this thread civil and your latest post destroys all he has been attempting to do in the last few days during the Holy Holidays.

Diana –

In the spirit of our new Host’s desire that we all get along, I’ll simply ask why is it you believe I’m “vicious and cruel” and a “useless and worthless” member of society? When and where did I ever libel you or anyone else?

If you could simply point this out to me, I would be more than happy to apologize. If you can’t find any examples of this conduct, it would appear you’ve become exactly what you’re now accusing me of being.

And for your info, FOIA requests are used to obtain information and records from governmental bodies (with some restrictions). You can’t give a FOIA request to the Sun for anything. I think they’d actually have a nice laugh if you tried.

Funny how you say that I need “to get some kind of life” and that I “live on this blog site as if there is no real world to interact in”. Up until today, I've posted on this thread three times since 12/22 while you, by the way, posted 13 times since 12/24. Thanks for the kind thoughts, but your statement is sort of the pot calling the kettle black, isn't it?

**********

Anon –

“It is time for you and TB, to put up or shut up. Don't keep asking bloggers to meet you or challenge them to use their real names.”

I’ve never done any such thing. Though I admit it would be helpful if the various Anonymous posters used some unique identifier so different posts over the course of days can be followed as being part of one “conversation”.

As much as some may want to lump us together, please do not attribute Ken's posts and my own to each other. I don't know Ken, I don't coordinate with him, and I don't always agree with him.

T.B.

Let us focus on the $61.4 million police and fire fund pension deficits. And the $11 million operating budget deficit as anonymous above stated.

This is truly a dilmena that not one blogger has offered a solution to.

Sadly, the only way to solve the pension fund deficits are both undesirable.

1.Either we increase taxes and the taxpayers take it on the chin.

2.Or we ask our fine police and fire fighters to make some sacrifices.

One of these solutions has to be taken. Both are UNDESIRABLE.

The big question is not the Napergate Man but where do we come up with $72.4 million dollars before we either ask for a bail-out or file bankruptcy. Yes, the Napergate Man uncovered a lot of waste in the last century, helped stop it and recommended many solutions in his Napergate Ads. But that was the last century. This is a new century and we need to step forward and find practical solutions and not depend on a person who did his share and deserves to retire from politics if that is his choice. He left a legacy that we need to build on. Being in politics is stressful and no one should be expected to have a life time of politics if he or she does not want a life time. New blood has to surface and we simply have to come up with solutions. I personally think no one wants to come up with solutions because both alternatives are not palatable. But in the end we have to stomach the required changes and move forward. Maybe we need a combination of tax increases and salary and pension reductions in order to meet at a half way point where no party has to make a full sacrifice.

I am surprised none of our current city council members have proposed a solution which will be unpopular with one or both parties. They are just sitting there doing nothing even though they all are fully aware the situation is getting worse and not better. Maybe they simply do not have the will power to take on the police and fire fighters and want the city to go bankrupt so the courts can take it over.

I think President Bush is also afraid to take on the unions and so 20 million dollar executives of the auto companies. Thus he gave them a temporary bail-out so they do not fold on his watch and ruin his already disastrous legacy even further. I suspect Barack Obama who is very pro-union will give them one more bail-out and finally let them go under. He can say he did all he can. Once a city or corporation goes under they are relieved of their pension liabilities and the employees get nothing. That has happened to many corporate pensions. Just ask the employees of United Airlines what happened when UA filed for bankruptcy. They lost their pensions and began 401k plans like the rest of us. Unfortuantely with a very late start. Thus they will have very little in retirement benefits.

I think many Napervillians do not understand the seriousness of this problem. At least 5 states have so far approached the Federal Government for bail out help or face the dire consequences of bankruptcy. The Feds are so far unwilling to help. Basically, if they bail one state, they have to bail all 50 states. If that happens the dollar bill will say 100,000,000 on it and will be worthless. All the money that taxpayers have been hoarding in their mattresses will become worthless. It is really a scary thought.

Many older people no longer trust banks, investment firms, or the stock market. Since Treasury Bonds are yeilding about 0% people are saving their dollars in their mattresses, dry wall, wooden floors and who knows where ever else. It is imperative we keep our fire dept. vibrant and well staffed. A house fire no longer means you lose your house which is usually insured. It also means you lose your life time savings which more and more people are shoving in their mattresses which are not insured. We need fire fighters that can come quickly to save our mattresses before they burn. So please let us not call for any lay offs in the fire dept. at this unusual time where we no longer trust our finanacial institutions. I am sure every one heard the story of Bernard Madoff.....once considered the second best investor in America after Warren Buffet. Yet, he found a way to lose 50 billion dollars for his investors. And can you imagine his investors are asking the Federal Govt. or in other words us taxpayers to reimbure those poor souls for that 50 billion dollars devastation.

It sounds like these greedy investors were capitalists on the way up and now want to be socialists on the way down. I say let us not bail them out and keep them capitalists on the way down as well as up. Sorry, but it is so easy to get off topic if you watch the news while blogging. The disatrous news forces you to vent as you write. Thank God for this blog site.

Sales tax for November is down 8.8% nationally and I am sure the situation in Naperville is probably worse since most homeowners are deeply leveraged in town since so many of our homes are new. Deeply leveraged homeowners are the first to file bankruptcy. I understand there may be over 550 homes in foreclosure in Naperville. I don't know if these homes can contribute to the tax base. If they can't it just means the rest of us will have to pick up the tab and pay even more taxes.

With home prices declining and assesments expected to be 30% lower than 2 years ago, will the City of Naperville reduce our taxes. Stop dreaming! They will increase our tax rates in proportion to the decline of our homes values. And when our homes appreciate again they will have the new appreciation to tax and the new higher rates. Has anyone ever met a government that truly reduces taxes when the situation improves? Stop dreaming again! When homes appreciated in California a few years back they did not reduce taxes rates. They increased the salaries of police officers and fire fighters to about 120,000 annually and increased pensions from 60% to 90%. Now many cities in California are in bankruptcy since the state can not bail them out. As you may know, California also was generous with state police and fire fighters and now have an 18 billion deficit. They are asking Bush for a bail out as they are threatening bankruptcy. I say let them file bankruptcy. Again, if you want capitalism on the way up you must suffer the consequences of capitalism on the way down.

The above numbers provided by CM Bob may actually be from before we had the major market collapse which started in early Oct. If our fiscal year ended on Aug 31 or Sept 30, the numbers are much worse by now. Maybe Councilman Bob or the Naperville Sun Editors can tell us when the fiscal year ends so we understand how bad our situation really is.

Much of the healthy economy of Naperville was dependent on home owners obtaining a home equity loan on appreciated house values above and beyond the mortgage. Without these home equity loans, Napervillians can no longer afford the high priced restaurants downtown. They appear very slow whenever I pass by them compared to one year ago. A few have gone out of business already. And to add insult to injury the City of Naperville wants to build a library parking deck at a cost of 25 million dollars to taxpayers using a 19.9 million municipal tax bond that will add interst expense and make the final cost easily over 50 million dollars. And yes, your taxes will eventually go through the roof....of course they are already through the roofs../..I meant to say throught the skies!

Let us hope we can install 5 new candidates this election and shake the Establishmentarians to their senses. Let us take the power away from them. Let us face it they have been in charge and screwed up our town. The Establishmentarians have always ruled Naperville and must take responsibility for the $72.4 million dollar defict. Yes, the Napergate Man got 4 council members elected once....but they were still in the minority and had no power. He needed one more candidate and maybe he could have made a difference. He did not have the opportunity as there were only 4 openings.

But now we have 5 seats up for grabs. If we vote for a NEW SLATE to take over our town, we can finally make a difference. We have a very unique opportunity. 4 seats can not get us anywhere. That 5th seat can actually end Establishment rule for the first time in Naperville history. Maybe just maybe the new candidates can make a difference.....if they of course are not corrupted in office by money from those powerful and entrenched Establishment forces that have an unimaginable grip on everything that goes on in this town. They have a chokehold! Let us end the chokehold by getting out and voting in large numbers!

Thank you....

Anonymous,

Your definitions indicate that we are all criminals and not just the Napergate Man.

From a strict legal point of view since the Napergate Man was not CONVICTED but made a deal for court supervision, he is not a CRIMINAL. That is why they have court supervision so you can avoid being CONVICTED and labeled a CRIMINAL.

I am sure that is why the Napergate Man was advised by his attorneys to make the plea he made.....to avoid a CONVICTION!

If you want to go with the loose defintion of "any offense, serious wrongdoing, or sin," the Napergate Man's daughter is the CRIMINAL since the daughter COMMITTED the offense and not the DAD.

As far as Ken, he is most likely a CRIMINAL based on the definitions above...unless he never committed a traffic violation of any sort. He has not stated he has never committed a traffic violation so it is fair to assume he has committed one since 99.99% of drivers eventually committ some traffic violation.

I think the Naperville Editors should end this debate by declaring the Napergate Man as not being a CRIMINAL. Period! And let us move on! Leaving the situation in limbo will continue to fuel the debate forevermore.

Obviously, many Napergatians are friends of the Napergate Man and no one wants their friend labeled as a criminal wrongfully. While it is understandable why the above Anonymous does not give a hoot, if he, a friend or family member of his was being labeled a CRIMINAL I am sure his stance would be different and he would give a HOOT!

I am sure if the bloggers decided to call Host Chris a criminal, day and night, over some traffic violation that his sister committed while driving his car, he would find it unacceptable and bring it to a halt.

Bloggers need to try to superimpose the situation on themselves before throwing stones at others.

I don't care how you slice it up - here are the definitions of criminal and crime - Is the Napergate man a criminal? Is the ongoing debate between the people here a crime?

I am not sure if the Napergate man is or is not a criminal - and I dont really care one way or another. However, the constant debate here about it seems to be criminal to me: criminal in the sense of it being a foolish or senseless activity.

I suggest that all of the Napergatians and all of the Establishmentarians plan to meet in the stadium at North Central College on New Year's day and end the debate once and for all by having a "last person standing" gladiatorial combat contest. Weapons of choice will be wit and vocabulary. Of course, that might mean than many of the contestants would have to be considered unarmed.

Lighten up folks and be thankful that the Sub allows you all to have a place to rant and rave and amuse others. Many of you make good points about taxes and government excesses but the messages keep getting lost in the venom and name calling.

And just to keep the record straight:

I'm not a cop, I'm not a teacher, I'm not a firefighter, I'm not a city worker, I'm not using spell check and I don't really care what you think of my posting. You folks are just plain bizzare.

From Dictionary.com

crim⋅i⋅nal  /ˈkrɪmənl/ [krim-uh-nl] – adjective
1. of the nature of or involving crime.
2. guilty of crime.
3. Law. of or pertaining to crime or its punishment: a criminal proceeding.
4. senseless; foolish: It's criminal to waste so much good food.
5. exorbitant; grossly overpriced: They charge absolutely criminal prices.
–noun
6. a person guilty or convicted of a crime.

crime    /kraɪm/ [krahym] – noun
1. an action or an instance of negligence that is deemed injurious to the public welfare or morals or to the interests of the state and that is legally prohibited.
2. criminal activity and those engaged in it: to fight crime.
3. the habitual or frequent commission of crimes: a life of crime.
4. any offense, serious wrongdoing, or sin.
5. a foolish, senseless, or shameful act: It's a crime to let that beautiful garden go to ruin.

Well, Chris, now you know why I keep getting into it with the cult members. I agreed to drop everything, and she comes back insisting I am a criminal yet again, and saying she will illegally obtain my information as soon as she gets the chance.

Just as Israel is finding out, you can't compromise with fanatics.

It appears that whoever prevails on the Ken/Diana blog here is whoever can stay up the latest?

As Diana most obviously was the last to go to bed, she gets the very unattractive and highly un-sought after last-word-in bulldog prize for today. Perhaps Ken will have a chance to slam her before she wakes up. (Unless, of course I have missed a Ken post that hasn't been moderated yet.)

Me? I was up with the wind storming against my windows and can't get back to sleep. Sleepless in Naperville-0/wind-1.

At least this blog has made me start yawning and feeling sleepy again, thank you Ken and Diana for being my sleeping pill of choice.

Why don't you guys really and truly get together offline, duke it out, have a drink and get over yourselves on behalf of the rest of us. Who knows? Maybe you will fall in like.

I agree. I just did not want him to have the final word and leave the bloggers with the final impression that the Napergate Man is a criminal because he was charged, jailed or obtained supervision. It just takes a little more than that to be a CRIMINAL as society understands the word.

Thanx!

I agree with the Naperville Sun Editors.

No one denies something 100 times unless it was mentioned 100 times.

No one is denying the Napergate Man was arrested because his daughter did not have change for a toll booth on more than one occasion while having change on 200 other occassions in a 6 month period.

No one is denying his license was suspended without his knowledge due to the toll infractions and he pled guilty obtaining supervision.

No one is denying he spent a night in a Naperville jail upon being charged. Being in jail after being charged has nothing to do with a conviction or being a criminal.

You are innocent until proven guilty. Jail means nothing. Many innocent people have been jailed while awaiting charges and were later vindicated.

The Nicarico 3 are a great example of innocent people spending 12 years in jail and even time on death row. Are they criminals because they spent time in jail for a crime they did not committ?

The Dupage County System allows you to obtain supervision in exchange for a conviction that will not be convicition if you complete your supervision without incident. The Napergate Man completed his supervision without incident and thus there was no conviction. That is how the system works but Ken has different ideas of how the system works.

More so, all current prior and current Hosts and Moderators have expressed their belief that this kind of encounter with the law is not used to define a person as a "CRIMINAL."

Ken has probably not volunteered his record for fear of being labeled a "CRIMINAL" by his own criteria. He enjoys being Anonymous so he can act like a Rambo Dictator and determine who is a criminal and who is not. Easy to do that while you hide behind a Keyboard 24 hours a day for 2.5 years.

I hope Ken follows with his threat and makes an inquiry with the TA so we can try to track him. Maybe if we showed him he can be called a criminal under his loose criteria, he will stop calling others criminals.

Personally, I don't know anyone who has not gotten a few tickets and pled guilty to them in return for supervision. Obviously, the term criminal was not meant for those cases except in Ken's distorted mind.

Sounds good to me.

There you go, Diana. If you refrain from insisting that a man arrested for driving on a suspended license and put in jail for it is not a criminal, I won't have a compelling reason to mention it. It just seems that you feel if you deny that fact a 100 times, I will get tired of saying you are wrong. If you don't mention it, I won't.

You say you want me censored in three posts since Original Joe's post. Maybe you can't remember or read what you post, but I can. If you want peaceful debate, quit attacking me. Quit trying to browbeat Chris into censoring me. Quit attributing statements to me such as your utterly ridiculous statement that I implied you or a former moderator are stupid just because you can't understand the simple point I made to someone else. If you keep up your hostile activities, I will respond. If you don't, I won't. Pretty simple, and the same thing I have been saying for months.

Naperville Sun Editors,

Thank you! That is really all I am asking for.

Let us see if Ken can heed your advice.

He refused to heed the advice of the old Naperville Sun Editors.

Maybe you will have more success. Only time will tell.

Naperville Sun Editors,

I see your point that it may be a gray area.

I just want Ken to stop calling public or private citizens "criminals" because of minor traffic violations that they or their family members may have committed intentionally or unintentionally.

It just seems Ken feels if he calls the Napergate Man a criminal 100 times it will become fact and people will believe him. This is what caused so many Napergatians to counter attack Ken over the last 2 years on this blog site. They don't want his repeated nonsense and propaganda to be believed as fact by many of the part time bloggers who may not be fully informed to the long history of the Napergate Man and the many good deeds he performed for citizens of Naperville.

Thanks!

Ken,

Those calls for censor pre-dated OJ's call for peace. You need to understand the chronology of time, Ken. I am no longer calling for you to be censored. I am suggesting you obey the recommendations of OJ which I think can help move us forward.

I was just making a point that you are calling people stupid for agreeing with the former Moderator that the Napergate Man is a private citizen. I did agree with the former Moderator so I feel you called me stupid as well as Anonymous. It would also be nice if you stopped calling Anonymous a mouse in each one of your posts.

From your last blog, you apparently still disagree with the former Moderator. I am not a newspaper publisher or a politician so I have no clue if former Moderator Jim is right or wrong.

Maybe the new editors, publishers, Host and Moderator have an opinion whether the Napergate Man is a private citizen or public citizen. I suspect they know much more than both of us.

Maybe they can shed some light on the topic. I do believe there is more latitude allowed in attacking a political figure than a private citizen.

There is no doubt that the Napergate bought many ads to try to influence elections and was even successful in influecning elections. But he never ran for political office. I believe he tried to influece elections as many private citizens try to influence elections. Many private citizens make large contributions to try to influence elections....I am not sure that would make these private citizens public figures simply for trying to influence elections. I suspect the criteria has to be higher.

Anyway, I hope Sun Executives can shed some light on this subject so we can stay within the parameters of civility.

Ken, apparently has no interest in stopping to call the Napergate Man a criminal even though Host Chris and the former Host recommended he not do that. I would like to see the recommendation enforced. In the case of Barack, when he refused to change his name based on a recommendation from the new Host he was later forced to obey. Ken should not be treated any differently than Barack, and should be forced to comply as he does not obey recommendations.

I guess the Naperville Editors need to put some teeth in their well thought out recommenations once in a while when they see they are being disrespected and even totally ignored at times.

Thanks!

Diana, I said anonymouse was completely and utterly stupid for the comparison he made. I didn't say that about you. Just to clarify, the napergate man made himself a public figure when he bought adds in the paper and tried to influence elections. I have done no such thing, so anonymouse's idea that I should make myself known to all because the napergate man was made no sense.

What's the deal, Diana? In one post you say you just want to debate the topics, even though you still ask for me to be censored. In the very next post you make, you again ask me to be censored because you feel you have been wronged when I didn't even address you. It is going to be difficult moving forward when you can't even tell who is being replied to, and attack me for no reason.

By Ken on December 26, 2008 6:04 PM

You also fail to comprehend that I did not make myself a public figure like the napergate man did, so to compare me to him only shows you complete and utter stupidity.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Ken,

You can not have it both ways. Former Moderator Jim clearly did not publish the information I provided him because he said the Napergate Man was a private citizen and not a public figure. The Napergatians disagreed with him but he insisted he was a PRIVATE CITIZEN.

That is the reason he gave me in private and later publicy for refusing to publish the record of the Napergate Man I provided him that I obtained from the Tollway Authority. He never mentioned he did not publish the record because it was obtained illegally.

So your remarks that I am completey and utterly stupid because you feel the Napergatge Man is a public figure are not true...indirectly you are calling the former Moderator completely and utterly stupid for making that comment that the bloggers all accepted except for you. I trusted Moderator Jim and accepted his verdict. For accepting his verdict you are calling me completely and utterly stupid. Amazing!

Anyway I wanted to point this out since you mentioned it. It is going to be difficult to move forward if you keep making such inflammatory comments. I do not know if you realize you are making them. Maybe Ken does not see it the way any other blogger sees it.

I urge the Naperville Editors to have a few words with Ken publicly or privately so can move forward as OJ suggested. He is more likely to listen to the Naperville Edtiors than his fellow bloggers.

Thanks!

Ken,

I am going along with Original Joe's plan which includes stopping the attacks on everyone including you. I have no interest in finding out who you are.

I can not tell you what to do as far as whether you want to put in a call to the TA or not. That is up to you and your right. I have confidence my girl friend did nothing illegal and you are welcome to check on her.

She simply requested records to vindicate the onsluaugt of the innocent Napergate Man. She knows the rules and regulaions of the TA. I don't know all the rules. I don't work there. If an FOIA request was required, I am sure she would taken the 1 minute it takes to file a one page form. She is very anal in everything she does. She does not know the Napergate Man and never heard of him and is not going to risk her job to provide this information. She did it for me. Saved me a trip to the TA by doing it for me.

Anyway, as OJ said we need to move on. You can do what you what. But I am no longer interested in who you are and continuing to drift off subject.

Barack and OJ are trying to get us to stop the attacks. I can see why. It is really not fun to blog if all we do is attack and counter attack each other.

Let us face it, the number of bloggers have decreased substantially from the last time I blogged jere around 6 months ago while I was on vacation. Let us talk about the economy that has forced me to stay home during my vacations and blog instead of travel to new parts of the world.

I also think Host Chris made a mistake by suggesting we can fight and if it gets really bad he will step in. That is what Ultimate Fighting is about. I know he did not have any evil intentions but what he said made it worse instead of better.

I really hope we can move forward and Ken can do his part by not calling the Napergate Man a criminal and indirectly the head of some kind of cult movement. That really is inappropriate and the Naperville Sun should stop it. We need some help from the Moderator and Host to stay on topic. Inflammatory accusations such as these only pour fire on the flame and make the fires very destructive.

I'm waiting for one of you to say "I know you are, but what am I" or "I'm rubber your glue, what ever you say bounces off me and sticks to you."

Well, Diana, you did not mention your plan against me. If you are going to drop your plan of trying to illegally find out who I am, and then posting that information, I won't have to make my call. I would encourage you to let your friend know her actions are probably not legal, and she should quit getting personal information without going through proper channels. Let me know.

Original Joe,

You really are making a lot of sense. I agree with over 95% of your proposals.

We really need to focus on the serious issues you mention. That is what we should be debating and not attacking each other.

These attacks on each other and on the Napergate Man are very petty and senseless. None of us are perfect. Anyone can be arrested for being in the wrong place at the wrong time or because an act one of our children performed in our car or home.

If a teenager has an alcohol and drug party while his parents are vacationing, they will be charged for gross negligence even if there child is 18 and they thought they could trust him. These kinds of things can happen to anyone especially when kids get a little older. Kids will always be testing the adult world and the police until they finally grow up. So lets stop throwing stones at the Napergate Man as Original Joe seems to imply and let us focus on our serious city problems.

We keep forgetting we have a $61.4 million pension fund deficit that is getting worse and worse by the year. We can not forget this pension deficit is based on only about 30 police officers and 30 fire fighters being retired.

Unless we take corrective action soon, one day when we ahve 200 retired POs and 200 retired FFs, we will have a $500 million pension defict that would force us into bankrutpcy. Unless each household is willing to make a $10,000 one time contribution to this fund to bring it back to solvency. Those are really are only 2 choices if we don't make changes now. I think Joe is suggesting we fix the system now but grandfather the POs and FFs that we made promises to. I agree with him. It will be expensive to honor our committments that are drunken city council made, but we elected them and we must take responsiblity for their foolish and unwise decisons. But let us elect new council members who can negotiate better contracts with new POs and FFs so our kids will not suffer as we will undoubtedly suffer in the very near future.

And besides the above nightmare, we have an 11 million dollar operating budget defict that has nothing to do with pensions and is above and beyond the pension fund debacle.

I suggest we all listen to Origninal Joe and try to move forward with solutions. Maybe we can propose solutions to the city council. I think we all know that most city council members read this blog site even though they do not post.

I also would like to commned all bloggers for not attacking CM BOb since he is a real person and should be treated with utmost respect for his bravery in blogging under his real name. I think not attacking him no matter what he says, is a green light for other city council members to join us as he has joined us. We should never give them an excuse not to join us by being disrespectful to CM Bob. After all he has been very helpful and most of the hard core numbers are obtained from him and not the Napergatians. Yes, the Napergatians repeat his numbers often but I think that is excellent so we don't lose track of the importance of what he is posting.

I hope under the leadership of Orignal Joe all of us whether Establishmentarian, Napergatian, or Independent can unite and try to become productive.

I was really proud of Barack when he apoligized, extended an Olive Branch to his fellow bloggers, and said he is done with these attacks. He has kept his word. It seems like everyone decided to honor his cease-fire. At the point of hitting rock bottom people did eventually come to their senses. I hope we can also come to our senses without hitting rock bottom as Barack and Co had to.

We need to end these silly attacks against each other and try to move forward.

I did not attack anyone in this post and I hope others won't attack me or anyone else and we can move forward with solutions.

Original Joe has really matured on this Blog Site and has set a great example. The rest of us need to follow his example and also mature. It seems like almost anyone on this blog site is ready to go to battle over anything. Everyone has to be like Original Joe and simply not respond and get back on topic. Be above the fray in the frying pan.

Warmest regards to all!

In a sorry attempt to pull this back on topic about what the blog rules are.....

The point I take away from this is 'the issues'.

Does it matter what any one's record is? No
Does it matter what someone's allegiance is (NG, establishment, independent)? NO.

Does it matter what the issues are for a topic? Yes.

Let me use that as a segway into a topic that has been on here for a while now.. that is the budget of the City of Naperville.. and the main sticking point is the pension funding (amongst other things).

Is it right to use a justification that because you may have been screwed out of a retirement fund due to the lack of performance in the stock market as a justification to screw others out of their retirements? In my opinion, No.

Was it a dumb thing to set up as it is in the first place? Of course it is/was. Let's halt it where it sits. Honor what we are obligated to honor but don't add to the problem any more going forward. Not honoring what we have so far means we can not be true to our word. Isn't 'credibility' a sticking point for everyone here? Yes.

Was it dumb to think about building a parking deck that might be 'nice' for those rare overflow occasions but in reality is not needed for the majority of the year? Yes.. it was dumb to go down that road.

Was it dumb to spend X amount of money on a lawsuit brought by a current city council member who's own actions set everything in motion? Yes.

Was it dumb for said council member to think they could circumvent the law? Yes. There is a saying: "But for your actions..."

Was it dumb to continually allow variances and tax-exempt/credit deals over the past several years granted to developers? Of course it was.

You get my point.

Let's get off the personal bullsh!t between each other and get back to the right stuff.... Which is: Where do we go from here?

We have a crap economy which is only going to get worse before it gets better (my prediction: 3 yrs minimum)

We have a rising city budget that needs to get under control due to property tax increases (let's not forget to thank D203 and D204 for their drunken stuper hand in this).

We obviously disagree on the HOW to bring it under control, but I think we all agree that it needs to have some tempering in some way shape or form. Call that a small win for what it's worth. We call care enough because we are here participating. Let's use that collective power to make a difference where we can going forward.

Such a pile of "he said she said."

You guys are ten pounds of crazy in a five pound sack.

Anonymouse 12/26/08, 4:31pm, I will post my full real name as soon as you, and everyone else does. I realize that no one knows who I am, and even posted that in the post you are responding to, and obviously did not comprehend, among other things.

For example, you fail to comprehend that Diana threatened to sue me. I would only counter sue if she posted my illegally obtained private information on this site as she has threatened to do. I have also volunteered to meet her, you, or any other anonymouse in person to exchange information. I notice you don't take me up on that offer.

You also fail to comprehend that I did not make myself a public figure like the napergate man did, so to compare me to him only shows you complete and utter stupidity. Also, I have not attacked him, only commented on his criminal status. While I have gotten a few traffic tickets in my time, I have never been arrested and put in jail as he has. By the way, you have my definition of what raises common traffic tickets to criminal status wrong; go back and see what I wrote before you misquote me.

One last thing, anonymouse. I will file my complaint to the tollway Inspector General. Here is a link, and a portion of why I would take great glee in Diana posting information from that complaint: http://www.illinoistollway.com/portal/page?_pageid=133,1398190&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL

Confidentiality
Individuals are welcome to contact the OIG with information regarding waste, inefficiencies, fraud, corruption, mismanagement, and misconduct. It is the OIG’s practice to maintain the names of complainants in confidence. Although not encouraged, information provided anonymously shall be accepted and processed in accordance with the OIG’s standards and procedures.
Due to the confidentiality of the matters under investigation, complainants are not normally apprised of the progress of investigations or reviews and may not be informed about the disposition of an investigation or review.
Records of ongoing investigations of the OIG are not public records.

Rambo KeyBoard Blowhard Ken,

It seems like you have panicked as soon as you realized your real identity could be uncovered if you filed a complaint, requested an FOIA or whatever. Went as far as checking with your attorney.

Ken you are as anonymous as Anonymous 10:21p.m. but pretending you are not Anonymous. There are 3 million Kens in America and if your name is not Ken, you could be anyone of 300 million Americans in this country.

The only one who has a right to sue Diana or inquire about the infraction if there is one, is the Napergate Man. Since she used the information in a positive way to defend him against all the false attacks he was receiving, I highly doubt he would have any interest in suing her.

Since you realize you can only be sued if you can cause harm to someone, what harm has Diana caused to anyone. It sounds like you have a very bad record. You were simply being tipped to be careful and got extremely defensive as most guilty people get.

If you are so clean, why don't you post your real name so we can do a legal check with Dupage or Will Counties on you. What are you afraid of Ken? You are the one attacking a real person, that being the Napergate Man, accusing him of being a criminal, and hiding behind your computer. You are the wimp.

Since you obvioulsy know his real name, why don't you post yours, so his supporters can put you under the microscope and see what you look like under the microscope.

Original Joe once said he could stand that test, but posted a phony last name on this blog site instead of his real name. He has mellowed out since and stopped being a hypocrit and earned the respect of his fellow bloggers. Maybe the challenge made him smell the coffee.

It is time for you and TB, to put up or shut up. Don't keep asking bloggers to meet you or challenge them to use their real names. Stop being wimps and post your real names on this blog site unconditionally and let us see if you can pass the test of being a "criminal" that you have defined. Under your definition any traffic violation that you plead guilty to makes you a "criminal."

Original Joe was brave enough to admit he was a "criminal" by posting his record which appears as bad as the Napergate Man's traffice record. Why don't you be a man Ken and post your complete civil, criminal and traffic records? Why don't you ask for your own Tollway Authority record and show us you and all your family members are perfect before you go on your rampage of constantly attacking the Napergate Man and his family members? Stop being a wimping whino on this blog site!

I hope you are the fool you are and file a complaint. I am sure Diana and her friend will legally obtain information about you through an FOIA and post it for the rest of us to enjoy. And what are you going to sue...a person for legally exposing your criminal record and posting it for the world to see? As long as she posts your record verbatim there is nothing to sue about. The only one responsible for your criminal record is the guy you look at in the mirror every morning while shaving. In case you don't recoginize him, it is Ken.

Sounds like you spent another lonely Christmas, Anonymouse 12/25/08, 10:21, and are now attributing your own personal crime history to other posters. You seem pretty knowledgeable about crimes associated with being a drunk; is that from personal experience?

My offer to Diana includes you and anyone else that wants to get my information. Pick a place that you feel comfortable in, and we can meet and exchange information. Of course, since you are to frightened to even use an identifiable name here, I am sure you will find a million excuses not to meet in person.

I checked with my lawyer, and found out that since suits concerning libel occurring on the web are fairly new, it would be quite difficult for her to sue me as she threatens. It seems that I would have had to do her specifically financial or personal harm, and since no one here know who anyone is, that obviously has not happened. However, if she uses her friend to illegally obtain my information, and then posts that here, I have a slam dunk lawsuit against both of them.

Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately for you Anonymouse, the only entity that can get sued for the type of libel you and Diana are posting against me is the owner of the site, and even then only if people knew my whole name and I could prove it caused me harm. Since I realize that you are the typical keyboard rambo blowhard, I wouldn't waste my time on you.

Looks like Diana and her big mouth may have cost someone their job... Nice going Diana.

Diana, you don't understand what I am proposing to do. After the holidays and coinciding vacations are over, I am going to call the Inspector General of the tollway. I am going to ask why they said it would be hard for anyone to get my personal toll records when there is a member of the toll authority staff giving out personal information to a friend, who is then posting it on a blog site run by a newspaper. I am going to mention the date that you published the napergate man's personal toll information here, and the napergate man's name, so they can find out who requested those records. Then I am going to ask if this is a legal way to disseminate information. My only problem is that according to their information, they may or may not give me an answer. My only answer may be if your friend is suspended or fired if this activity is indeed illegal.

There is a reason why Jim refused to post that information, and I feel that reason is that the information was not obtained legally. If a police officer is not allowed to check my information without compelling legal reason, I don't see why your friend can. Here is a link to an article that states these records must be subpoenaed, yet you posted private information on 2/27/08 on the Napergate Man Unmasked thread. Did you or your friend have a subpoena for that information? The link: http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/surveillance/2007-08-10-ezpass_N.htm

I have already said I will meet you in person and give you the information you want to sue me. I am looking forward to this even more as you have twice accused me of being a criminal with a long record. I think you have more to worry about in a libel suit than I do if your friend gives you my information and you spread it over the web.

I believe you Joe.

Let Ken do it so we can learn a little about him.

I am willing to bet his record is the length of an elephant's trunk.

Probably has a couple of DUIs and some reclkless driving tickets.

Seems unable to control his hostility on this blog site so I doubt he can control his hostility in the real world.

It seems like the Napergatians could have a field day with Ken's record and history. Would not surprise me if he had some disorderly conducts and urinating at the public library where the deck was going to be built. Let us hope his record does not include armed robbery or murder. With Ken, you never know. You simply have to investigate him once we can get his full name from Diana's friend.

At least we can find out if he had a right to call the Napergate Man a criminal based on his own record. My gut feeling is he will have a REAL CRIMINAL RECORD!

Joe has a couple of speeding tickets over the past 20 years (most paid, a couple dealt with via supervision), a failure to obey a traffic control device (supervision) and a verbal warning from ISP for a heavy foot on 355/53N in Schaumburg on a night with little traffic and great road conditions. Luckily the officer was understanding and owns a Porsche so he was understandable of the circumstances and appreciated the honesty. If you're looking for more dirt than that you won't find it unless you come over and wash my back in the shower after doing yard work.

Joe is not a cop, never was a cop, never will be a cop.

Joe goes to file his FOIA.

When Diana's girl friend comes back from Mexico, she gives Joe's first name, middle initial and last name to Diana. Maybe even address.

Diana digs up the history of Joe as he dug up the history of the Napergate Man.

The Napergatians publish the history of Joe to retaliate for Joe publishing the history of the Napergate Man on this site, a while back before he became the new and nicer Orginal Joe.

All I can say is Joe better be whistle clean and ready to handle any scrutiny. If not he should consider letting Ken do the dirty work.

Ken's reputation is so bad there is little the Napergatians can do to tarnish it further.

Maybe the Napergatians think Joe is the Joe who is the President of the Fraternal Order of Police for Naperville. I guess we will soon find out unless Joe backs down in order to maintain his anonymity.

My 2 cents worth.

Happy Holidays!

Diana on December 24, 2008 4:41 PM
My guess is they will give you a dirty look and tell you to come back in 10 days even though they could literally retrieve the documnet in 5 seconds if they truly wanted too.
-----------------------------------

Joe, good luck in your pursuit. You probably won't get anyone who gives you a dirty look if you go over the next 2 weeks, remember, Diana's "friend" is conveniently on vacation in Mexico so the service should be just fine.

Looking forward to the report.

Joe,

That would be interesting to finally see what you and Ken look like. But I had something else on my mind for you two....especially Ken since he is such a hypocrit and thinks he is God's gift to man who can commit no sin.....only others commit sins and crime while Ken thinks he is perfect. I would like to shatter that guys persona one day. I just hope he comes and fills out an FOIA report in person.

As far as you, Joe, you seem to be a very nice gentleman. Not like the old Joe who use to cause havoc on this blog site. I don't think I would do anything to ever tarnish your reputation even if I had the ammunition and documentation that you were a bad guy with a historical past.

Ken, is another story. I really believe he is a bad guy with the record the length of my arm and then some who is acting like Mother Theresa on these blog sites while hiding behind his key board. You would think this guy spends his whole life calling the police on criminals everyday and giving to charities. Something is just not adding up about this Ken Character. He is not the person he paints himself to be. That I am sure of.

Do me a favor Joe, and let Ken file that FOIA. It would help me immensely in what I would like to do and discover. Plus, he needs to get off his butt once in a while.

I am glad you met the Napergate Man. I honestly never met him, seen a picture of him or have a clue what he looks like. He seems very mysterious but I do like what he and his followers stand for. With all the chaos perpetuated by the Establisment in the last 5 years, it is easy to want to join and be a Napergatian at least in spirit if nothing else.

I am hoping he will attend the election forums as in the past and I can finally meet him.

Diana,

I can only imagine you want to look at the video footage. I'm sure some would recognize me as a customer in Mediterranean Oasis this Summer. The NGM might also remember me saying 'Hi' to him in there as well.

Ken and Original Joe,

I hope you both go to the Tollway Authority.

I am actually excited about you guys going there.

After you go there and file FOIAs or e-mail them, I will tell you why I want you guys to go there in the worst imaginable way.

Please don't break your promises and make sure you go there or e-mail.

I will be awaiting both of your reports on what what you discover.

Joe,

As I have said many times, I never filed a FOIA request. My girl friend got me the information. Whether she filed one or not, is required to file one or not, I don't know. I am sure if she was required to file one, she would have done it. She has the forms and she could probably fill the form in a second. She is on a 2 week vacation in Mexico so I can not ask her right now.

Trying to get information on a traffic ticket is not the same as trying to obtain information on someone's medical records. The criteria and threshold is much higher for medical records.

Personally, I am surprised the Toll Authority even requires an FOIA. Like I said they started this before they were computerized and it was to discourage requests as it took so long. They still are not fully computerized and very inefficient. Some of their records can be found in Houston as was the case with the Napergate Man. His case was farmed out to an outside agency due to a 5 year backlog of cases and very limited manpower.

Most counties will give you all of a person's history including civil and criminal record just by going on the internet for free. You should know as you were able to get the Napergate Man's record over the internet. Sometimes if you pay an internet private agency $9.95 they can even dig deeper on a person's record. There is no privacy in this world anymore.

What is the difference between running a toll or running a red light? They are all in essence traffic violations. Some violations in Dupage can be much more serious such as DUIs or reckless driving. They are readily available and can smear a reputaton much worse than a .40 cent tollway violation for whatever reason.

Running a toll happens 10,000 times a day in Illinois to many drivers for multiple reasons. It is really not a big deal.

I think it became a big deal here because some bloggers wanted to tarnish the reputation of the Napergate Man and indireclty tarnish the reputation of his supporters and followers.

Ken, just wants to make it a big deal so he can call the Napergate Man a "criminal." Even Host Chris said he does not consider such things to be criminal. I agree with him. He seems to be very reasonable and level headed.

Yes, he pled guilty but got supervision. I am not a lawyer but my understanding is that when superivision is completed, it is off his record. There is NO CONVICTION if he satisfies supervision which he did. Thus his plea of guilt is dismissed when supervision is completed. It does not go on his record. At least that is what they tell you when you plead guilty and get supervision. That is why every pleads guilty with supervision instead of asking for a trial, losing and getting a REAL CONVICTION that is not removable. The Napergate Man also has a right to expunge the original charge if he does not want anyone to know he was even charged.

It is such a petty matter, I don't think anyone is going to expunge such a thing. It is not like you are going to be denied credit because your daughter ran a .40 cent toll.

If you ask me this whole thing was blown out of proportion. The NPD should have let him surrender himself after taking Abby and his friend home. They did not! Maybe they were going for the letter of the law instead of the spirit of the law.

In my opinion the NPD did a lot of damage to their reputation by being so heavy handed. Most citizens do not appreciate this unnecessary heavy handedness by a police dept. It is uncalled for. It is very citizen unfriendly. If a police dept. wants to have a good repoir with its citizens, this kind of action should never be taken. Police officers have discretion. You would think a 20 year Sgt who was the Head of Internal Affairs had some common sense and knew how to exercise his powers of discretion. This police officer in my opinion has impaired judgment. It really is scary to think the police dept literally made him a Judge in in internal affairs when he has no judgment abilities. I can see why the Napergate Man chose not to appeal to Internal Affairs. His accuser would have been his Judge....only in Naperville can we have such conflicts of interest and accept them. I am surprised MONY/CNN were kind enough to rank us 29.

Many peoplke dislike the NPD. It is easy to understand why.

Good luck with your FOIA request and let me know how it goes. Ask them not to trouble you and to print the page while you are there. My guess is they will give you a dirty look and tell you to come back in 10 days even though they could literally retrieve the documnet in 5 seconds if they truly wanted too. Unless of course, it was transferred to the Houstan data base!

I think we should be concerned why government does not want to be transparent. Why we have to file these nonsense of FOIAs for information we are entitled to? If we are entitled to it why make us go through all this red tape? Why troule the citizenry?

What do you think Joe about the fact that CM Bob can just about get any information he wants from City Hall just for the asking while the rest of us have to ask for it with a FOIA? Is that fair? Do you think this is ridiculous? I do!

Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. If the Naperville Sun ever wanted a Moderator to help Host Chris, I would recommend you.

You have been extremely polite with you inquirees. You remind me a lot of Larry King. He is also polite when asking questions. You guys are the complete opposite of Ken and TB who are only here to stir trouble and inflame anything and everything out of proportion to get their rises and highs. Those 2 guys really needed to get some kind of life. They live on this blog site as if there is no real world to interact in. I suspect they don't have friends and do not know how to interact or socialize. I really feel bad for both of them. I wish them nothing but the best in this Holiday Season and may God show them the Right Path!

Well, Diana, I guess the only way to find out is for me to email the toll authority, tell them one of their employee's is accessing private records without a court order, and then giving them to a friend to post on a public website. I will await their response, and get back to you. Thank you for telling me your friend's position, as this will make the inquiry easier.

Diana,

I know the information can be disclosed as part of an investigation but I wasn't aware of the general public's ability to have access to anyone else's records since they operate under their own authority.

When I am down in the HQ area next week I will put one in for my neighbor who does not have an I-pass account using only their name on the request and see if they fulfill it or tell me I am not entitled to it. This seems like the best apples to apples way to compare that I can think of.

If you can tell me exactly how it should be written so it stands the best chance of success being fulfilled I would appreciate it.

PROCEDURES FOR REQUESTING TOLLWAY RECORDS UNDER THE
FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT (FOIA)
Requests for Tollway records shall be submitted to the Freedom of Information Officer at the Tollway.
Requests shall be submitted to the following address:
Illinois Tollway ATTN: Freedom
of Information Officer 2700 Ogden
Avenue Downers Grove, Illinois 60515
(630) 241-6800 foia@getipass.com
Requests shall be made in writing and may be hand delivered or sent by e-mail or by U.S. Post Office mail.
Oral requests are not allowed. A record request form is available, but not necessary.
The request for Tollway records shall contain the following information:
1. The requestor's full name, address and phone number.
2. A description of the Tollway records sought, being as specific as possible.
3. Whether the request is for inspection of Tollway records, copies of Tollway records or both.
The requestor will be informed of the status of his/her request; i.e. whether approved, denied or delayed within
7 working days from the date such written request is received by the Tollway's Freedom of Information
Officer. Before approved requests to copy or receive copies of Tollway records will be honored, the requestor
must agree to pay any copying fee assessed by the Tollway. The following is the fee schedule for duplication
of Tollway records:
Type of Duplication Per Copy Charge
Paper copy from paper original (letter sized) $0 .15
Paper copy from paper original (legal sized) $0.25

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Joe,

I think you are misunderstanding the policy. You can use an FOIA to request anyones record. The words his/her are regarding the request and not his/her own record. My girl friend handles these FOIA requests all the time. Sometimes they are for themselves, sometimes they are for strangers, sometimes they are for their own kids.

Many civil and criminal defense attorneys have used the Tollway Authority to track the moverments of witnesses to prove they could not have possibly been where they said they were due to time and place shown on their toll records. It is like Big Brother watching you all the time. Be careful! Don't use toll roads if you rob a bank unless it is not your car and transponder.

Husbands have tracked their wives to see if they were cheating and vice versa through FOIA requests.

Police also issue many FOIA trying to track the whereabouts of criminals. So do private investigators.

My girl friend is very busy handling these FOIA requests. She knows what she is doing and is not going to break the law and lose her job. Tecnically she can exercise an FOIA request on anyone and execute it in one second for herself if she wants. She does not have to wait for a week or 10 days. Again that policy is purely State Government policy to slow down the unnecessary snooping around. An FOIA could be executed in 1 second when you walk in with the FOIA but never is. The State does not want her to be so nice with the public.

Have a nice day Original Joe. I hope I have been helpful in clarifying. Again his/her referred to the request of FOIA and not to that personal record.

Diana, you are exhibiting your usual lack of comprehension. I called Maryann out because she had the usual cult bias concerning her comments on 'Barak's' posts. As usual, she said 'Barak', her fellow napergatian, was innocent and pure, and the rest of us were just nasty people. I disagreed.

Just to clear up a few other points:

1)Prove that I called you many names; it didn't happen.

2)You said your friend provided you with your information, with no mention of a FOI request. If she did not, as you implied then and now, get that information with a FOI request, she obtained it illegally. Have you not seen the recent news about state employees possibly losing their jobs for requesting Obama's information? State employees have to have a valid reason for pulling information from the system, your friend didn't.

3)This is a link to what FOI requests will be answered. The information you provided is not listed as available, once again showing you obtained it illegally. http://www.illinoistollway.com/pls/portal/docs/PAGE/TOLLWAY/NEWSROOM/NEWSROOM_FOIA/FOIA_GUIDELINES_01_2007.PDF

4)The napergate man, while a fine man, is a criminal. You even admit as much when you acknowledge that he plead guilty to his crime. This same fact also shows he was not innocent, as you proclaim. There are many fine men who have contributed much to society before or after making mistakes in their lives (Richard Nixon comes to mind).

5)I have called the napergate man the cult member's appointed leader. I have never said it is a position he has accepted or wanted. I have often pointed out that he would be embarrassed by the ravings and antics of his cult following here. I have also never claimed he attacked me,nor have I attacked him. I have simply stated facts about him.

Finally, Diana, if you want to sue me, let's set up a place to meet, and I can give you all my information. We can meet in Chris's office, if you are afraid of me, as you indicated the last time I offered to meet you and show my information that proved you were wrong. I, of course, will counter sue you, and will enjoy winning my suit and taking your money, as the facts have always been on my side.

Diana,

According to the Tollway Authority's FOIA policy, those records are not available via the FOIA process.

One can obtain their own information (normal account support) but not someone else's, per their policy.

http://www.illinoistollway.com/pls/portal/url/ITEM/37BE7DFDCEC840358C0CBEED20D092C5

Perhaps I am misreading it. Which category did obtaining someone else's toll violations fall?

McFarland –

While there are many alternate definitions for the word “cohort” the most common is group or band of people, especially those sharing the same demographics. While cohort could be used in place of accomplice, I still fail to see how calling your group “cohorts” is in any way insulting or like Ken’s “cult” reference. If you still have heartburn over this word, simply substitute “group”. Your preconceived bias instantly thought (wrongly) that I was implying something sinister.

I didn’t bring the Napergatians into this discussion and never discussed the Napergatians in terms of religion. I could care less what you, Barack, or the NGM thinks about religion. I did, however, use Barack’s Napergatian comments to point out the inconsistencies in his posts. I could care less if he’s a Napergatian or not, but it would be nice if he’d at least be consistent.

The reason Ken and I independently commented on Maryann’s post was her comment about being ganged up on 20 to 1. Until this statement (and now your own about being outnumbered 100 to 1), if anyone dared to hold view contrary to the Napergatians they were mocked and insulted. So are you saying you and your cohorts will now be more tolerant of opposing viewpoints? It would be a welcome change.

I initially thought maybe you hadn’t read the library thread since you think the Napergatians weren’t insulting or mocking Brenda, but instead were somehow trying to be helpful. But then you showed your own bias regarding this and stated “I don't believe Brenda was sincere and genuine. Or maybe she was being selfish or lazy.”

I’d encourage anyone with an open mind to actually read the archived library thread (which started on 02/09/08) and see how “accommodating” and non-hostile the Napergatians were. On 02/15/08 Debbie wrote “I say the City Council pass a resolution changing ONLY ONE of those numerous handicapped spots by the library that are always empty to ONE called ‘LAZY PEOPLE.’ And award Brenda a special sticker called LAZY that will allow her to park there with a few other LAZIES that may pop up.” Brenda is then repeatedly referred to as lazy by Jessica, Martha, Marilyn, & Marybeth without any apology. Just where were the Napergatians attempting to “accommodate” or otherwise help Brenda?

Nice try at re-writing the past, but your cohorts were certainly insulting to Brenda and attacked her personally instead of attacking her position. I also see you posted to that thread and while you weren’t personally insulting to Brenda, couldn’t you have helped by calling for an end to the insults?

You may have missed it, but I was on your side regarding the library parking deck so please spare me your arguments against the parking deck.

I especially liked your comment about asking Host Chris for help if (probably when) your side explodes with attacks. I’ve never asked the moderator for help, that’s a Napergatian tactic along with the frequent Napergatian calls for censorship.

I would urge you to re-read my post, McFarland, and this time try it without the Napergatian blinders on.

T.B.

By Ken on December 23, 2008 9:18 PM
McFarland, Maryann does not have to mention the napergatians because, as you mention, she, like you, is a known napergatian. I wish you would have used the level of language I used as your post would have been more concise and understandable.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

So basically Ken what you are saying if any Napergatian blogs on any topic even if it is not related to a Napergatian issue, you are going to call them out just because they are a Napergatian. You are going to go on a rampage and call them cultists for no reason.

As McFarland stated, Maryann never mentioned a word about anything Napergate and you went off on her. How rude! All she was doing was praising the peace accomplished on this thread by the actions of Barack and Host Chris.

It sounds like you are a trouble maker who enjoys harassing bloggers for no reason. Last time I had a vacation and was trying to blog here, you harassed me for trying to provide public information to the Moderator so we could resolve the Napergate Man's tollway ticket. You accused my girl friend and I of being criminals for obtaining a public document through my friend at the Tollway Authority. How shameful of you, Ken! Yes, I am calling you Ken instead of the other names I use to call you out of respect for the new Host....surely not out of any respect I have for you. I am sure you know that.

All tickets are public record. It just happens the Tollway Authority was not Internet based like Dupapge County. You could have gotten off your lazy butt and gone to the tollway and they would have given you the same information I received with an FOI request and a .25 cent per page fee. Like all public authorities, they require FOI Requests to slow inquiries down as it is time consuming and costly. Notice how CM Bob can get anything he wants from the City. If you and I wanted something, they would ask us for an FOI Request for no reason but to hassle us and discourage us from making such requests.

My girl friend is to the Tollway Authority the same as is CM Bob is to the City of Naperville. They both have access to inside public information that is available to the public with a FOI request. So what is criminal about that? Personally, I think these FOI Requests are ridiculous and made to discourage transparency to the public.

There is nothing illegal about obtaining public information. How dare of you to have accused me of committing a criminal and illegal act! If I knew who you were, I would sue your rear end. I am still upset at you, Ken, and I would like a public apology on this blog site. If I don't get one, I promise to track you down one day and hold you accountable in court for tarnishing my reputation. Many people know me since I made the mistake of using my real first name. But I never thought bloggers could sink to the level you have sunk to and attack reputations with such falsehoods that you spew out like a rattle snake with its filthy poisonous tongue.

The Napergate Man was able to dig up the records of each one of his fellow licenses with a FOI Request to the NPD and prove his alleged accusations were all fabricated.. There was nothing criminal about obtaining this public information as there was nothing criminal about me obtaining the public information from the Illinois Authority.....or with CM obtaining public information from City Hall. It is all similar if not identical. Is CM Bob a criminal because he obtains information for us that we can not obtain except with an FOI Request? Of course he is not a criminal. I think he is a hero of sorts and I feel everyone on this blog site has the utmost respect for him whether they are Napergatian, Independent, or Establishmentarian. I think he is liked so much because he provides transparency that no other City Councilman or Official is willing to provide. Let us hope his fellow city council members don't find a reason to censure him soon since he is bit to resident friendly. That is all I was doing.....providing transparency. How could that possibly be criminal, Ken? You really hurt me with your wild, childish and false accusations against me for no apparent reason. I am over it now but at the time you did hurt me. I have never been attacked that in my life. I am very much like the girl next door who likes to be a good neighbor and friend to all.

It is too bad that former Moderator Jim refused to publish the documents I obtained for privacy reasons. I e-mailed him all the records and all the back up records. He knew the truth. I wish he could have published it so everyone would have known the truth about the Napergate Man saga that fateful evening. Basically the Illinois Authority and their out of state incompetent supporting agencies never notified him of any problem until after his arrest. They sent him a warning notice from Houston bulk mail and expected him to receive it in a timely manner after already having suspended his license. What a joke! I wish I had this information to help the Napergate Man in court. I doubt he had this information and ended up pleading guilty while he was innocent and then being attacked for 2 years on this blog site for no good reason. This is government at its best. I assume he pleaded guilty to avoid the cost and time a lengthy trial would entail. If anyone knows what a trial would cost, he would know since he has been through so many of them.

All I was trying to do. Ken, is help an innocent man and you attacked me for no reason. Just like you attacked Maryann for absolutely no reason. She was simply blogging because she was happy to see peace and tranquility restored to this thread and you attacked her. Why? What is wrong with you Ken? Really!

This is my first letter to the new Host. I would like to ask him to suspend you permanently from this blog site. One reason I don't like to blog here is because of you and your arrogance. It never ends. The Host is hurting his blog site by allowing you to play the role of an evil moderator by attacking every blogger who you don't agree with.

You never discuss any topics....just attack, attack and attack. I am personally fed up with you and your style. At least this new Host was smart enough to see through you early on. He noticed properly you were simply here to antagonize bloggers and get a rise by getting under the skin of others.

The Host could not have been more right. I am here to appeal to the Host to ban Ken permanently. I would be happy to participate much more and so would my friends if we can rid our selves of this Ken.

He called me many names in the past. I will admit I finally lost control and called him every name in the book also. Just like Barack finally lost control...even though it appears in his case he may have not lost control and decided to send a controlled and calculated temporary message to make the mother of all points. He appears to really have sent a message as to how bad it can be if you want to play gutter blogging. I am going to try to stay above board as Barack and Maryann asked for. I am not going to call Ken any of the names I called him in the past while retaliating.

I am here to simply file an appeal with the Host and ask him to banish Ken permanently from this blog site. I really believe he is hurting this blog site. Yes, controversy generates hits. But not the kind of controversy that Ken generates. His controversy chases people away. That is why I have been away for a while. I simply can not stand this evil hearted person.

For Heaven's sake he even called the Napergate Man a criminal after admitting he was a fine man. Then he tops that by labeling him a cult leader. I suppose Ken would want you to believe that the Napergate Man started with him first. Whle I have not read the tens of thousands of posts on this blog site, to the best of my knowledge I have not seen any posts by the Napergate Man. Thus he can not say the Napergate Man attacked him first and get away with it like he tries to do with the rest of us bloggers even though the documentation shows he always starts it if one is willing to dig a little deeper and do some research.

Hopefully, when Ken is finally abolished , I will become a full time blogger again as I was during my last lengthy vacation in which I must have posted over 100 times during a 2 week period.

And I really should not single Ken out. His buddy TB was just as bad, vicious and cruel during my 2 week experience on this blog site. Those 2 men are just not fit to blog. They are very well known libelists that should be sued by every blogger they attacked.

One day I hope to file a FOI Request on the Naperville Sun and obtain their IP numbers, track them down and sue them. They serve no purpose to mankind or society. As far as I am concerned they are useless and worthless members of scoiety.

Please ban them permanenty Host Chris and let us make this the most successful blog site in Chicagoland. I know you are doing very well but these 2 characters are holding you back from doing even much better.

Please consider my request to ban them both....the sooner the better.

It is the Holiday Season and we should be spreading cheer instead of dealing with these two devils in disguise.

Watcher,

We had serious issues with Moderator Jim when the Estbalishment was pushing him around and he was telling us where, what and when we could blog.

We resolved our differences with former Moderator Jim and Host Ted.

We now get along very well with the Naperville Sun Blog Personal.

They treat the Napergatians very fairly on this blog site and we have no issues with the Naperville Sun pertaining to how this blog site is run....yes we have some issues with the Print Edition but in due time we believe all this will be resolved. And no Napergatian I know is cancelling his or her subscription to the Naperville Sun. I am keeping mine in order to do my part in keeping the Sun a vibrant and successful paper. The Daily Herad is on life support so we better all help the Naperville Sun unless we want no newspaper in town. That would really be a disaster.

We buried the hatchet a long time ago about our past issues.

We are discussing the present now....not the past.

Host Chris is calling for better heads to prevail during the above heated debate. I agree with his call. I was simply calling out Ken and TB as from their latest posts they are trying to stir the pot and bring in the Napergatians.

The Napergatians stayed completely out of the battle between Barack and his numerous antagonists. We don't fully agree with Barack and his many unique views but we respect him as we respect all civil bloggers with differing opinions. The antagonists began attacking the Napergatians for no reason. They wanted to make Barack a Napergatian even though he stated he was an INDEPENDENT. His views are very independent and I can see why he considers himself an INDEPENDENT. We are simply trying to defend oursleves without lowering ourselves to the pitiful gutter bottoms Ken and TB want to take us to. End of story...period.

It appears Barack expressed his opinions and had enough of the vicious attacks and venom counterattacks. He seemed to want to quit on a high note. He extended an Olive Branch and appears to be sincere in calling a TRUCE. I think Ken and TB were upset that anyone wanted to end such an insane debate. Apparently as the Napergatians have been saying for a long time these 2 guys are trouble makers that are simply here for rises and highs. Even Host Chris once said this about one or both of these guys from recollection.

Let us all be civil and give Host Chris a chance to build a successful blog site where people really come to discuss and debate the issues in a civil manner concerning Naperville and its financial and political fiascos.

I commend the Napergatians for staying away from this nastines until it was over. I know I was waiting. I can only guess that Maryann was also waiting till it is over before she jived in with her comments.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to All.

McFarland, Maryann does not have to mention the napergatians because, as you mention, she, like you, is a known napergatian. I wish you would have used the level of language I used as your post would have been more concise and understandable. I have never had any problem facing the napegatian music; I just wish they could carry a tune.

McFarland on December 23, 2008 5:55 PM
I attempted not to lower myself to the level of the language you used in order to stay above board.
Don't ask Host Chris for help if the Napergatians respond. I remember you were both asking former Moderator Jim and former Host Ted to try to control the Napergatians. Since you obviously are starting up, please don't ask for Host Chris to step in. Be men and face the music if it comes your way

-------------------------

McFarland, welcome to the site we have missed you. As a refresher to those who don't remember McFarland here is a clip below from the Napergate thread. I wouldn't have even mentioned it except for the fact that you portray yourself as such an above board person - it was not always the case. The constant reference to the NGM and your desire for the Sun to do a story on him is also interesting. Hasn't the NGM continuously turned down requests by the Sun to interview him? Why don't some of the Napergatians ask him yourselves why he doesn't want to participate in the story, don't blame the Sun?

Naperville Sun editors on March 17, 2008 12:39 PM
Moderator Jim to McFarland: I don't appreciate your veiled threats against the paper. If all you Napergatians wanted to support the paper that, yes, gave you this forum then you would encourage them to buy the print edition as well as go to the web

Ken and TB,

I find both of your posts very interesting. Even though I know Maryann is a Napergatian, she never mentioned the word Napergatian, Napergate or the Napergate Man. She was simply discussing personal views of hers.

Somehow you both felt a need to bring in the Napergate issue for no reason. It has no relevance here. The Napergatians agenda has nothing to to with religion and we never discuss it. Napergatians are from every religion and religion has never come up in any of our discussions or forums. We respect all religions and Agnositics and even Atheists. They are all the people of God.

What was the purpose of you dragging Napergate into this bottom of the barrel debate? It seems like you guys are aching for another battle with the Napergatians to get your rises and highs. There is no issue to discuss here so you will not succeed in dragging the Napergatians into a hostile debate. Your tones in both of your posts were hostile and inflamatory.

Ken called as cultists and TB called as cohorts besides many other names. Just keep in mind if a debate gets nasty again who started it. We certainly did not and I hope Napergatians stay away and don't get involved on this thread.

Barack has stated he was an Independent but agrees with many Napergatian views but not all. Many people agree with Napergatians views and that does not make them Napergatians.

I think Ken was just trying to insult Barack by calling him a Napergatian and cultist. Barack simply said he is not insulted to be called a Napergatian. Tens of thousands of people are also not insulted to be called Napergatians. We are proud to be NAPERGATIANS.

You can be one and wrong or 100 and wrong. You can be one and right or 100 and right.

In the case of Brenda the Napergatians did not feel it was appropriate to build a garage for $19.9 million plus the costs of land just for Brenda. They were not insulting here. They even suggested a proposal to give her a special parking spot next to the handicapped spots to avoid spending 25 million. Maybe it would be appropriate to have special MOM spots for Moms with 3 kids or more in a car who are of very young age. We were trying to accomodate Brenda while trying to save the taxpayers $25 million dollars. We are not hostile people.

The Napergatians simply suggested that Brenda use the City Hall Parking lot or street parking if she could not find a parking spot. I have never gone to the library and not found a parking spot at the library. I always found a parking spot. I even park there during the Last Fling and I always finding parking there.

All we the Napergatians were saying for 2 years was this parking deck was too expensive and unnecessary even when the economy was good. We think the city council rubber stamped this parking deck without any rationalization or a decent thought process. Suddenly, the city council members are thinking and realizing they did not study this library deck properly before making their decision to waste 25 million dollars to gain 200 or so parking spots. Keep in mind we already have 150 spots that we will lose to gain 350 or so. The 150 spots are costing us nothing. The new 200 spots will cost us $100,000 each even without counting the cost of the land which we all know is very expensive in that area.

I think in that debate the majority was right and Brenda was wrong. I don't believe Brenda was sincere and genuine. Or maybe she was being selfish or lazy. No one likes to walk 100 yards unless they have to. But it is a a trade off to having lower property taxes and in the end it is healthy to walk a 100 yards across the bridge from City Hall.

Yes, I understand Brenda may have some kids, she does not want to drag. We all have kids. In that case she just needs to circle a few times until 1 of 150 people exit the library. People are coming and going all the time. The majority don't mind walking 100 meters in the rare event that the library parking lot and surrounding street parking is all taken. But the point is, this has never happened so why build a parking lot before there is a NEED.

Plus there are 2 parking lots in the making that the Napergatians have not objected to. And I believe these are at least partially being paid for by private developers. Also a few floors could be added to the Chicago Ave deck if the need really arose.

What really puzzles me is that when the Chicago Fire was playing in Naperville at NCC they brought in 15-20,000 fans for each game. Low and behold, they had no trouble finding parking. I attended 3 sold out games and had no trouble finding parking. As a matter of fact I found parking in the Chicago Ave deck even though I came minutes before the game started.

As we all know from the Napergate Man, the city council was taken contributions from developers and law firms to approve projects. He went to Dupage before the internet was popular and yanked the records. He published the amount each council man received in his Napergate ads.

Corruption does not end because someone exposes it. Those who are corrupt find new ways to be corrupt. Corruption is just not rampant in Chicago and Illinois. It is also rampant in the suburbs such as Cicero, Stone Park, Mel Rose Park and West Chicago just to name a few.

While I have no proof, I do suspect that some of the decisions of our city council indicate corruption or at least improprieties are returning to our town. I think the city council knows the Napergate Man retired and no one is digging into their activities. No one is looking at them or at least knows how to look at them like the Napergate Man use to look at them. He also had the advantage of catching them off guard almost naked.

The Naperville Sun will let people blog freely but it is not doing any investigative reporting in its print edition which is 10 time more powerful than this blog site. Editor Tim West has a wife who works at the Brestal Law Firm. He is going to do everything in his power to prevent any Sun reporter from peeking in the windows of the Brestal Law Firm. For 35 years, Mr. West has never exposed any improprieties in the City of Naperville. He refuses to peek even in the big windows of City Hall.

We all know when the Napergate Man decided to peek, it took him 44 full page ads to document the improprities and corruption he found in City Hall, at the Police Det., at the Park District and even in the in-house legal dept. It was truly mindboggling. Was the Naperville Sun truly this blind at the time? Or did Editor Tim West order everyone to keep their distance? These are questions that have never been answered. A decade later this remains a mystery.

And one question that eats away at me to this day is who halted the presses on Napergate V and Napergate VI. I believe someone in the Naperville Sun knows the truth. I don't know! But if I were to guess, I believe Editor Tim West was involved in that fateful decision of censorship of a PAID AD and there were no repercussions to anyone in the Old Naperville Sun. I know the New Naperville Sun is much better than the Old Naperville Sun and is no longer run by Tim West except for the editorial page. But one has to note that no Napergatian letter has appeared in the last 10 years in the Letter to the Editor section. Not one! One has to wonder if he avoids Letters from Napergatians as he avoided post from them on his Blog Site, All Points West! I guess the bosses at the Naperville Sun probably don't check on him and he does as he pleases. Maybe since he has been there 35 years they assume he can do no wrong.

Many people thought Bernard Madoff on Wall Street could do no wrong for 20 years only to find out he stole 50 billion dollars. A French CEO of a feeder fund just committed suicide today after losing $1.5 billion for his investors today in this Madoff Fund. How sad! We should never assume. We should check and double check on everyone who has an important role in society. Tim West has a lot of power and needs to be checked on more often by his superiors. I am not saying he is doing anything wrong....I am saying let us check on him. It just seems odd that the print newspaper never got a letter from a Napergatian. It almost defies logic considering how many Napergatians are passionate about writing on this blog site.

And if the newpaper really wants to build this blog site they should do a story once in a while about Napergaian views. Last time they did an article on the Napergate Man and tied it to this blog site, they gained 300 bloggers. Of course without occassional reinforcement, you will gradually lose these bloggers. A store that advertises will gain lots of customers. The minute it stops advertising and turns the lights down, a retailer gradually loses their customers. I personally think the Napergatians have been ignorned by the Naperville Sun deliberately in the print edition and thus the tie in to this blog site has eroded. Just my speculation and opinion and of course I can be wrong.

Yes, I drifted off subject all because of Brenda. But my point is we need to investigate why our City Council wanted to build a parking deck that was truly never needed then or now. Good economy or bad economy! It has nothing to do with the economy. It is about need and usefulness!

And please tone it down TB and Ken. I attempted not to lower myself to the level of the language you used in order to stay above board.
And please don't blame the Napergatians for starting attacks. Read your posts again and notice the attacks and inflamatory language. Don't ask Host Chris for help if the Napergatians respond. I remember you were both asking former Moderator Jim and former Host Ted to try to control the Napergatians. Since you obviously are starting up, please don't ask for Host Chris to step in. Be men and face the music if it comes your way. Your childish play to get your rises and highs never seems to end. It is like a bottomless pit.

Maryann on December 23, 2008 3:49 AM

Are you sure your real name isn't Michelle?

Maryann –

Much like you, I really didn’t want to delve into this thread until things calmed down a bit. That being said, I think you’re being too easy on Barack for his role in getting the thread so “boiling hot”, as you put it.

Part of the problem was that Barack seemed to contradict himself at times. For instance, he thanked people for referring to him as a Napergatian (By Barack December 21, 2008 2:44 PM) and said he was not offended by the term Napergatian (By Barack on December 22, 2008 3:35 AM), but then turned around and stated that he didn’t “appreciate being labeled a Napergatian.” (By Barack on December 22, 2008 9:59 PM) So is he OK with the Napergatian label or not?

But I would differ with Barack (and possibly you) regarding his original statement being nothing more than a “passionate view”. I think Barack’s initial statement was insulting, even if unintentional, and like you I’m not even someone of strong faith.

The original statement (made on another thread but carried over to this one) was “I believe all religion is based on brainwashing and unfounded faith. It is for the weak who need a crutch to get through life.” (By Barak Hussein Obama on December 7, 2008 1:18 PM (on the Does the Economy…thread)).

Yes, religion is founded on faith, but that doesn’t mean that organized religion is based on brainwashing or is merely for the weak. Stating such is insulting and condescending. It would be just as easy for me to state that Barack’s lack of conviction or faith is based on a failure to grasp some simple concepts accepted by millions or billions worldwide. Having faith doesn’t make people brainwashed or weak, just as Barack’s lack of faith doesn’t make him a fool.

I also found it hard to reconcile Barack’s statement that people of faith are weak with his later statements that he disliked the religions he saw because they all thought they were right (By Barack on December 22, 2008 9:59 PM). Isn’t Barack doing the same thing as the religions were by stating that he’s right and everyone else is weak (and thus wrong)?

Lastly, Maryann, I had a nice laugh at your point #10 about someone being outnumbered 20 to 1 not necessarily being wrong. If only you’d had this epiphany (no pun intended, Barack) when poor Brenda was getting beat about on the library parking deck thread or numerous other instances. I’ll have to remember this statement of yours for the next time I get ganged up on by your cohorts. This is truly priceless.

T.B.

Maryann, I find your post very amusing. 'Barak is obviously a napergatian as he has all the cult lines down pat, and now you, another napergatian come in to defend him with all the usual lies. Did he use the vaunted napergatian email list to ask for defenders?

Just a few responses to your repetitive list:

Barak started all the attacks, as all cult members do. I had not even responded to him and he brought my name into his rantings a couple of times. Of course, as a fellow napergatian, you cannot admit this, as napergatians never disapprove of each others' attack tactics.

Just because you question your religious values and are afraid to stand up for your beliefs does not mean the rest of the board feels that way. By the way, what kind of parents do you have that would disown you for your beliefs? I guess that explains a lot about you.
I think most people replying to 'Barak's' religious stance were just upset at the usual cult theory that his opinion was the only opinion. I stayed out of the conversation because I ignore all religious blowhards as I am confident in my beliefs and feel no need to pontificate on a blog site.

How could you never realize the hatred between religions? That hatred is the one constant of religion since man began walking.

Of course you think Chris let the attacks go to far, because you feel only the napergatians like 'Barak' should be able to conduct personal attacks and name calling. Everyone else should be banned because, in the collective cult thinking, you and your pals are the only ones who are right.

Chris told 'Barak' quite a few times that he was uncomfortable with his chosen user name and posting as if he was actually the president elect. 'Barak' only changed his style when Chris bluntly told him that his posts would no longer be accepted if he did not stop doing that. In my mind, Chris was more than fair, as he still lets him post under 'Barak', which is pretty much the same as posting under the full name.

Are you going to stick to the might does not make right argument when the cult gangs up on another poster as they have done to TB, Joe, me, and many others? This would be a refreshing change, if it happened.

'Barak' started in the gutter, and never left. First, he wanted all to believe he was the president elect. Then he accused others of posting under multiple names. Even his statement that he did a four hour workout is not believable. Now, he wants us to believe that he was a missionary. He wants us to believe that he is extending an olive branch of peace when his next statement is shows he has lit that branch on fire. Who knows what to believe with this guy?

As I have stated many times, I would welcome debate without name calling and personal attacks, debate without obvious lies like the ones 'Barak' posted. Just because I welcome such debate does not mean I can ignore a post like yours, Maryann, that puts the blame on everyone else except the trouble making napergatian poster.

Merry Christmas to all, and may the Christmas spirit carry over into the New Year's posting habits of all!

To Sun Editors,

I am glad everything has finally simmered down. I did not want to enter the fray while the frying pot was boiling hot. I guess now that is has cooled down maybe I will say a few words.

1. My observations is this attacking and counterattacking was not started by Barack. It is also very counterproductive.

2. I do agree with Barack that he did not attack anyone initially but expressed passionate views that apparently struck a cord with quite a few bloggers who wrongfully interpreted it as a personal attack.

3. I can understand why it would strike a cord. Born a Catholic, I also question my religion. I still go twice a year. On Easter and Christmas. I am not sure why I go. I guess to please the parents and grandparents. But I don't dare question my religion in the presence of my parents or grandparents. I believe they would disown and disinherit me if I ceased being a good Catholic.

4. I think what is most disturbing to many including myself is that Barack wants us to think about religion. Most of us simply do not want to think. We like the comfort zone of the status quo. It is simply easier to believe and have blind faith every Sunday, go home and watch a few football games.

5. I never realized the huge hatred between religions that Barack discovered in Jerusalem. However, honestly I am not surprised.

6. I think the fact that this debate that got a touch overheated indicates our society is not tolerant of people who question faith....I did find a lot more tolerance in Europe if you question faith as opposed to the States. I do not know if there is any tolerance for questioning Islam in a Moslem country. I never been to a Moslem country so I would not know. But I heard you can not question Islam in many third world countries.

7. I think the Host made a mistake by permitting bloggers to attack each other and than saying he will step in to stop it if it got real bad. Well, it got real bad and he never stepped in to stop it. Even though I agree he should never censor he could have been much more firm in requesting that people refrain from personal attacks. If you are not going to censor, at least do some scolding of those who do not listen.

8. When the Host asked Barack to change his name. Barack did. When the Host asked Barack to stop playing the President-elect, he also complied. At least he listens and respects the Host.

9. On the other hand when the Host asked the others to cool their jets they did not listen and continued attacking Barack and even addressing him with insulting names as opposed to Barack.

10. Mighty does not make right. Just because it is 20 against 1, it does not mean the 20 are right. I believe the 20 whipped themselves into a hysterical frenzy and were all wrong and ill mannered.

11. Normally a strategy of counter attacking is counter productive and does not work. However in this case it may have worked. I think Barack took everybody to the bottom of the gutter with him. When everyone hit rock bottom, it seems like everyone smelled the raccoon smell and came to their senses almost instantly.

12. I am glad Barack called a truce at 5:39pm yesterday. It seems like it is in its 10th hour and holding. I urge the Sun Editors to do all they can to keep this truce in effect. I think Barack did his share and I hope others follow suit and do their share. It is the X-mas Season and we don't need to be bickering and fighting......we need to be all getting along.

The great Sam Walton once said it is OK to swim upstream when everyone else is swimming downstream. That is all Barack was doing. What is the big deal?

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to All.

Peace to Everyone.

Original Joe,

You are right. Thanks!

Barack,

No need to defend against something you have not been accused of.

ANN E.

Thank you for your kind words. I was having fun getting in the mind of Barack Hussein Obama and when Host Chris asked me to cease and desist, I stopped immediately. I was trying to have fun like they do on Saturday Night Live but I guess bloggers did not understand my humor or sarcasm and found it unacceptable. I can deal with that.

Agnostics believe in God. Atheists do not believe in God.

Agnostics define God in many different ways. Some Agnostics define God as Muslims, Christians and Jews define God. Other Agnostics consider their conscience God. Some consider Him(him) a Supreme Being and some don't. So the definition of God in the mind of an Agnostic is not fixed as in religion. Agnostics don't believe God sent any Prophets to Earth such as the Prophet Muhammad or the Prophet Moses. They also do not believe the Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. They believe he had an earthly father as the Muslims believe....just a coincidence that their belief is similar on this one point. Muslims believe Agnostics are Kafereen and Agnostics think Muslims are a little ridiculous.

Agnostics to a great extent do not have all the answers and are exploring. Many believe that the Universe was created by an explosion 13 billion years ago, but believe a Supreme Being created the massive explosion. They suspect it had to start from somewhere. Others, especially the scientist Agnostics do not believe a Supreme Being had anything to do with this gigantic explosion. As far as I am concerned, I was not there and have no clue what happened 13 billion years ago. As I said in many prior blogs, I only believe what I can prove. I do not believe in faith. That is too much of a leap for me.

The bottom line is no one on EARTH knows what is going on including Agnostics. Atheists believe in no God and no after life. They believe in leaving a good legacy behind them when they die. They believe they live on in the memories of others and they accept that. They understand and accept they will be forgotten after a few generations unless they are Albert Einstein or Abraham Lincoln. It does not seem to bother them. It gives them an urgency to squeeze every precious moment out of the one and only life they will ever have.

Atheists are more at peace with themselves than Agnostics. Many Agnostics do become Atheists over time. Many people are afraid to take the step from the 3 monolithic religions to Atheism. Agnosticism appears to be a stepping stone to some who eventually become Atheists. Some remain Agnostics and never become Atheists.

Agnostics are holding on to a slight hope that there is a God and some to possibly even a Heaven. In case there is a Heaven, they want to be good in order to have a chance of going to Heaven. Many Agnostics don't believe in Heaven but believe in God. Almost all Agnostics do not believe in spending any time praying that they will make it through the gates of Heaven. If they die and find out there is a Heaven, you can say they will be pleasantly surprised and accept Heaven. If they die and find out there is no Heaven, there feeling is Oh Well!

Atheists don't believe in God, Heaven and Hell and don't worry about these things. Earth is their Heaven. They believe in enjoying every moment on this earth and believe when they die, they become nutrients for trees and plants. The nutrients may one day become a life again, but they think the odds these nutrients would become an ant, dog, plant, tree, elephant or human are all equal. They understand they can not control anything so they simply don't worry. Most Atheists I met have a very positive attitude. They are more confident in their beliefs than Agnostics who they view as being on the fence.

I am not an authority on religion, Ann E. I just have had a lot of exposure and I am trying to learn as I go along in life. In the end the slippery slope of wanting proof can lead anyone to Atheism. I have no proof that Atheists are wrong in their beliefs. I respect them. They may be right and one day when I am done exploring I could possibly end up as an Atheist. Only time will tell what happens to us. To the best of my knowledge there has never been a communication between a live and dead person.

That is really all I know. If you have any more questions, I most likely will not be able to answer them. I spend less than 1% of my time being involved with such things as to a great extent I do not believe the answers will be found in my lifetime. You can say I am accepting my fate regardless of what it is.

I would rather watch the Chicago Bears win than think about religion.

Have a nice day tomorrow....no exclamation point just for you.

Original Joe and Ann E.,

My truce was effective immediately after my post ended. The attacks in the post were deliberate as were all the attacks preceding them. The only purpose of the attacks were to counter the original attacks and to help people understand what they were doing since they were ignoring many of Host Chris' sustained requests to halt, cease and desist these venomous attacks. Some bloggers also did not appreciate the respect I was showing initially by not counter-attacking despite being called names like Fake Barack, Puppy Dog and other names I would rather not repeat.

As it has now been shown and documented, I was attacked for my views and beliefs and not because I attacked anyone personally. Once again, you will not see me attacking anyone. If bloggers did not get the message from my SAMPLING, they will never get the message. So it would be pointless to continue my counter attacking especially since that is not my nature or style.

I am enjoyed the Chicago Bears game right now. Go Bears! Sorry about the exclamation point, Ann E.

I hope both of you are having a nice evening and staying warm.

Peace and Blessed Holidays to you also.

Thank you.

PS. Bears just scored and won 20-17 after making a 4th down by literally the nose of the football, blocking a Green Bay field goal and kicking a Robbie Golden Field Goal in OT. Let us be cheerful and celebrate. What more can we ask for on a frigid night like tonite...I mean tonight as I do not want to mangle the English Language.....lol...

Let me grab a Miller Lite....I mean Miller Light....how dare Miller mangled the English Language. I am switching to Coors Light....at least they know how to spell light.

Now, see Barack...you have told us a few things about yourself without being so inflammatory to your readers, a little of your history, a little about yourself without pretending to be someone you aren't, without ridiculing others for not being on the same page as you are, not one mention of brainwashing in your post and I do appreciate it, and I did read what you wrote with interest, thank you. If we could continue like this, you wouldn't even have to write about the "he said, she said," "he started it, she started it", or reminding us what Chris would like, as it's much more natural to be respectful of what you write, if you respect what we think.

I do have a question of semantics; doesn't agnostic mean that you neither believe or disbelieve in God? Wouldn't the majority of Agnostics believe more toward there being no God, as He is without "proof"?

I appreciate your words of respect toward people of all religions, and I also appreciate the fact that you didn't criticize anyone's choice of worship or belief while stating your thoughts and opinions, thank you.

Fellow Bloggers,

I have declared a truce and intend to honor my declared truce.

Let us not slice, dice and split hairs here. My truce started with the end of my post and not in the middle of my post.

I apologize for every name I called any person.

I was simply trying to make a point and to make you feel how it feels to be gang attacked. It appears you felt it and did not like how it felt.

I think there is a misunderstanding by bloggers as to what constitutes a personal attack as opposed to what constitutes a passionate view.

The blogger who claims I started all the attacks simply published a personal view of mine and misinterpreted it as a personal attack. Unfortunately, he/she could not tell the difference.

Other bloggers without thinking, using logic or common sense followed each other with attacks seeing who could out do the other. All assumed wrongfully, I started the PERSONAL attacks..

I am not hiding behind Host Chris. He asked you guys to stop these attacks and you refused. I felt the only strategy that would work is counter attack and have you realize how bad the situation can get if I counter attack instead of just continuing to take insults which I did for a few days.

Anyway, I hope this is all over. I will not attack anyone. I will turn the other cheek from now on.

I hope Host Chris tries to explain the difference between having passionate views on a subject and personal attacks.

I am sorry so many of you bloggers are offended that I am an Agnostic. If you are Agnostic you don't believe in organized religion. It is really that simple!

Having said that I respect all Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists. May God Bless all of you during this Holiday Season. May God keep all your families and friends healthy during these frigid Christmas, Eid al Adha and Hanukah Seasons.

I came to my conclusions because I was exposed to all these organized religions while I was a missionary in E. Jerusalem. I spent a few extra years in Holy Jerusalem to try to learn more about religion after my mission ended. I went to Jerusalem seeking to strengthen my belief in my religion. While I was there, I had a chance to explore all the other religions. I was offended how the Christian, Muslims, Armenians and Jews in the 4 corners of the Old Walled City of E. Jerusalem really disliked and despised each other.

All the religious factions believed they were right. And that all the other religions were wrong. At times they did not hold back and cussed on other religions, especially in private. I was very offended and began believing that religion is based on brainwashing. People were brainwashed to believe they were right while others were wrong. God would have never told anyone to hate anyone else for any reason. Thus, I came to the conclusion this hostility was the making of man and not God.

Anyway, that is my personal experience and where I get my personal views. Now it is between me and my One God and nobody is between us contaminating our relationship. That is how I evolved over time and after a lot of soul searching. I am much happier this way and at peace with myself and my God. I am sorry if you bloggers feel that is offensive. I am not trying to offend anyone. Just simply expressing my views and beliefs!

And I will not be attacking anyone anymore. I am knocking it off. I hope everyone else knocks it off.

I also hope Host Chris helps the bloggers differentiate between a strong passionate view and a personal attack. I think if he help bloggers understand the difference, the attacks will stop on me and we can concentrate on the subjects Host Chris is putting up on this Blog Site which I find quite interesting.

Thank you!

====================================================================

PS. When sitting on my desk top instead of my lap top I will even take the extra step and do SPELL CHECK in order not to offend any English Teachers that may be blogging with us and do not want us to mangle the English Language. I never intended to mangle the English Language with my posts. I was doing my best to use proper English and proper spelling. I am sorry but my old lap top does not have SPELL CHECK and I apologize in advance for my future 1 or 2 spelling errors when I do not have time for SPELL CHECK. Please accept that I am not perfect. BTW, I am using my DESKTOP at the moment and did SPELL CHECK for the first time since I began blogging. Trying to conform!

And please Original Joe, don't call me a Napergatian if my writings and style are now starting to conform with the Napergatians. I was pushed to conform my style of writing and even to spell check as I assume the Napergatians must do as no one has questioned their spelling. From a political point of view, I am an Independent and intend to remain that way. I don't care to be a member of any political party whether it is local or national. Again, I am an Independent and not a Napergatian or Establishmentarian. As the articulate Anonymous, I also do not appreciate being labeled a Napergatian.

And I will even reduce my exclamation points to make one blogger happy. Anything else you bloggers would like me to do? All I am asking in return is not to be attacked personally. That's it. Best Regards.

Barack--this is not ridicule, it's a heartfelt question.

Within your last post you say,

"I am going to honor a truce and see if you guys would like to also honor a truce." And then a few lines down within the same post you continue, "I hope I made my point by lowering myself to your levels and addressing you by idiotic names as you haved attempted to do to me.
Now try to raise yourselves to my level! A normal level...nothing more, nothing less!
Let us debate and discuss in a civil manner as the Host has advised and recommended over and over again. Please respect him and heed his advice!
I can see from the repsonses I finally tired you whining babies out.
Time for your naps. It will do you all well!
Maybe when you wake up you will stop your whining and crying!"

Therefore, you have broken your own suggested truce regarding "maturity and silliness" and "not being the next to attack!" and attacked other bloggers once again before you submitted the post asking for a truce. Honestly, how do you expect anyone to react to this? Please tell me what I am supposed to take from this, what are your expectations for a truce while ending your post in something that seems to be asking for additional flaming response? Is it your intention to call me retarded, unintelligent and a high school dropout without negative response? Do I sound uncaring, uneducated, and unintelligent? I really am looking for a reasonable answer.

Just a sidenote, it seems that the majority of the content of your posts are asking to debate and discuss the ongoing arguments that you seem to relish being involved in here, rather than stating anything about the topic at hand. You seem to be driven by a contrarian spirit, is this the best way to teach anyone about what you think, what you feel and what you are passionate about? Is this how your God would want you to teach others about Him? Is He a contrarian? Wouldn't a better mode of teaching your views be with a more compassionate voice, less accusatory and less degrading to your audience? You can tell us what you think without expecting us to think the same, and vice versa, no? A lighter touch and a quieter hand may get you so much farther spreading your word. A possible suggestion—fewer exclamation points within your posts would make them a bit easier to read. If you want to debate argument for argument's sake, that is your prerogative, but it would be best, in my opinion, to simply argue and debate argument, rather than hiding your agenda behind Chris's good graces and an indignant religious undertone? I really would like to understand better what you hope to accomplish—as they say, if you aren't getting what you want, shouldn't you change what you do?

Peace and Blessed Holidays

Barack,

I'm not trying to insert myself into your back and forth but your olive branch broke at the end of your post with:

"I can see from the repsonses I finally tired you whining babies out."

Many people express a desire for the name calling to stop but in reality it often only means they want others to stop calling them names and not that they have to reciprocate. I'm sure that's probably not the case here so I'm pointing it out because it apparently slipped in unnoticed.

By Anoni-mouse on December 22, 2008 3:44 PM
to Barack - you win - I am gone - you are the king of the blog universe.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Mickey Mouse School Teacher,

Sorry to shame you so badly after you attempted to shame me for a spelling error. I was nice and said you only had 4 errros even though I documented and posted 5.

I am glad you are gone. I guess you could not take the medicine you were dishing out.

That was my goal to chase you high school drop outs off this blog site and restore it to an intellectual level.

I can really undertand why the Napergatians left in mass after realizing they were debating semi-retarded high school drop outs.

Attacking gets you guys nowhere. I hope you all realize it.

Name calling gets you guys nowhere. I hope you all realize that too!

I single handed made minced meat out of you guys in the span of a few hours.

I can finally understand why you guys chose to attack the Napergatians instead of debating them in an intellectual and over board manner.

The truth has become a bit too obvious.

As I said, let us call off this nonsense.

Here is my Olive Branch! Please accept it!

I will not be the next one to attack!

I am going to honor a truce and see if you guys would like to also honor a truce.

If you don't honor the truce I am proposing, expect to be bombarded all over again.

Now let us be mature and stop this silliness. It is utter stupidity!

I hope I made my point by lowering myself to your levels and addressing you by idiotic names as you haved attempted to do to me.

Now try to raise yourselves to my level! A normal level...nothing more, nothing less!

Let us debate and discuss in a civil manner as the Host has advised and recommended over and over again. Please respect him and heed his advice!

I can see from the repsonses I finally tired you whining babies out.
Time for your naps. It will do you all well!

Maybe when you wake up you will stop your whining and crying!

Thank you!

There is nothing to be said about this

Barak Hussein Obama on December 7, 2008 1:18 PM

I believe all religion is based on brainwashing and unfounded faith. It is for the weak who need a crutch to get through life

----------------------------------------------------------------

High School Drop Out Anon,

That is not a personal attack on any blogger or person.

It is simply a BELIEF of mine.

A GENERAL BELIEF is not a PERSONAL ATTACK.

I am really surprised so many bloggers are about as DENSE as they make them!

Why don't you guys heed Host Chris' recommendation and stop the personal attacks.

None of you guys are in my league! That is as obvious as the Sky is Blue on a non-cloudy day!

I am grateful, that Host Chris is letting me expose you guys in an unhindered and uncensored manner.

Thank you, Host Chris!

No, I'm pretty sure we're all laughing at you. I honestly hope you keep posting, you're turning the Potluck in to a comedy site. This is hilarious!

You can't dispute any of the facts I've posted, so you choose one sentence to create an entire rant about. You truly are a king of debate, keep up the good work! Keep disregarding the questions people pose to you and instead just make below the belt jabs. That's the true way to win any argument.

Anxiously awaiting your next master piece!

By Web Guy on December 22, 2008 2:40 PM

So you paid a repair man $173 for something which you could have easily done yourself since you apparently are some kind of expert.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Web Fabricator,

I never claimed I am an expert. You claimed you were and don't know what you are talking about.

I called AT@T and they could not diagnose the problem over the phone. They said it would cost $89.95 for the first half hour and 23 dollars for each additional half hour. The repairman told me he gets paid 28 dollars an hour and collects a pension upon retirement. The rest goes to AT@T...not him!

There is travel time involved when anybody comes to your house. He has a large truck loaded with equipment. He does not collect all this money. AT@T collects it, you ignorant dummy.

Plus, if you had a little better comprehension and read my blog carefully, you would have seen that he had to sell me a new 2-Wire Router which was part of the $173 price. I bought the upgraded version with 4 connections which allows me to wire up to 4 computers if I chose not to depend on wireless connections. And besides the router he sold me 3 filters. I will have 2 spares to change next time around on my own.

Apparently, you and your office mates are about as stupid as they come to be laughing. This guy needed a half hour to get to my home and a half hour to get to his next call. He also spent more than a half hour in my home diagnosing the problem with tools I don't have and only charged me for only a half an hour. He was a very kind man. When you factor in his one hour and travel time and the extra time he spent in my home without charging me, he colleced $89.95 for AT@T of which he pocketed about $56 dollars for his 2 hours of travel time and work time.

For you to compute he was making 346 dollars an hour and 700k a year revealed your UTTER STUPIDITY. I mean you are as stupid as they come.

Air Conditioning and Heating Repair Experts come to your home and also charge you similar amounts. It is not their money to keep. It is the company's money. With that money they also have to pay for their office overhead, insurance, secretaries who answer the phone, their trucks and whatever else including Workmen's Compensation which is expensive for tradesmen.

I bought 2 A/C Heating Units from Four Seasons a while back. They only charged $59.99 for the first half hour. They went out of business. The new company is now charging $89.99 for the first half hour just like AT@T to check on both my units. The last time a unit went out, it was just a tiny fuse that I replaced for 20 cents to a higher grade fuse. The fuse was the size of my pinky nail. But, I am not stupid enough to tamper in a field where I have no expertise and possibly get electrocuted or burned. Fools do that all the time and end up buried 6 ft. under. Hopefully, they are in Heaven!

They make fools like you every day, Web Fabricator. I am surprised you are surrounded by a bunch of fools in your office. Did it ever occur to you they may have been LAUGHING at you instead of with you when you calculated the repairman makes 700k a year?

Only an idiotic fool could arrive at such a fuzzy calculation and erroneous conclusion. You really exposed your stupidity on this blog site. I would change your IP number and handle if I were you and restore your lost credibility and reputation. Something you can do in the Web World but can not do in the Real World!

I hope all you bloggers realize that this is not the way to blog and debate. I held off using my ammunition for a while. Now that I am using it freely, it has become very apparent that my antagonists are worthless high school drop-outs that are just not in my league.

I would like to see Host Chris end all this nonsense by never letting it start. By nipping it in the bud and never giving it a chance to escalate since we have high school drop-outs who are not able to follow his well thought out and excellent recommendations. I understand Host Chris is opposed to censorship and I am in full agreement with him. Thus he is between a rock and a hard place. I feel for him and would never want to be in his predicament.

I can not read Host Chris' mind, but maybe he wanted you guys to see where this kind of attacking leads if one chooses to counter attack...it leads to NOWHERE just like that bridge in Alaska!

Time for all you high school drop-outs to mature. Seriously!

Thank you!

It does make wild reading, huh? I am trying to stop and stick to topics. Sometimes it can be so hard, but I am trying.

Sun Editors,

"Twice I have created a post basically asking people to be civil and refrain from insulting each other, and twice it has turned into a huge brawl. Anyone else see the irony in this?"

I think you unfortunately set unrealistically high expectations.

Barack on December 22, 2008 12:44 PM

I think it is well know on this blog site who started the personal attacks. Therefore, when the kitchen get hot don't go crying to Host Chris like a whining cry baby. Next time don't start a fight you can't finish!

_______________________________________________

Puppy Dog,

Maybe you forgot that you were the first to post on the topic: "Does the economy make you give less?" By Naperville Sun editors on December 7, 2008 4:00 AM

In that FIRST post you said the following:

Barak Hussein Obama on December 7, 2008 1:18 PM

I believe all religion is based on brainwashing and unfounded faith. It is for the weak who need a crutch to get through life.

So in this case I believe you were the first to start the personal attacks? No? (careful, it's a trick question because you were the first one to post).

And as for claiming others are being cry babies, this site is loaded with you constantly complaining to host Chris, "Make them debate me", "Why can't I use my fake name", "why don't you censor them", etc. Your complaining got so bad that Chris gave out his personal e-mail address in order to stop the constant questions / complaining on the site.

T.B. was correct about scratching an itch, I'll take his cue and let puppy dog go on with his monologue without comment from now on.

Joe, ahhh... I thought you were talking the next hop in the internet chain. We're on the same page then. ;)

How could I forget the famous Dunkin Donuts episode! A meeting that will live for eternity in infamy!

to Barack - you win - I am gone - you are the king of the blog universe.

Fake Barack, you're great. Keep it up, this is hilarious. I love how I post facts which you could verify on your own, all you need is the gumption to search Google... And instead you make assumptions about my job.

I assure you, I do quite well for myself. I appreciate your concern though. Really, please read any guide on the basics of how networking works. Arm yourself with some knowledge and then come back to debate IP addresses. ;)

Web Guy,

Many providers use web proxy devices that act very much like NAT as described above. Everyone proxies through the device and the rest of the world sees the device's forward-facing IP address. Hotspot providers also typically employ this technique (the famous Dunkin Donut episode). There were still some facets of the AOL service that work in a similar manner with your real IP being hidden and what everyone else sees when you surf the web was an AOL forward facing IP.

For me 'the days' were getting various university dec vax and ibm mvs systems to talk to each other up and down the east costs via BITNET.

By Barack on December 22, 2008 1:21 PM
By Anoni-mouse on December 22, 2008 6:42 AM
I am not Ken - and I wasn't trying to make fun of anyone. I am simply tired of seeing people mangle our language.

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Anoni-mouse,

On another thread you could not spell your own name. In your above post "By Anoni-mouse on December 22, 2008 1:10 PM" you mangle the English Language while claiming you are tired of seeing others mangle the language. What a hypocrit! It fits so well with Mickey Mouse Ken.

____________________________________________________________________

"And by the way, I don't use my real name in posting because there are TWO many insane people in the real world who can get completely out of hand over the slightest issue - or insult - real or perceived."

ARE YOU SURE YOUR USE OF THE WORD "TWO" DOES NOT MANGLE THE ENLGISH LANGUAGE?

____________________________________________________________________

"It is simply what they believe in. yes - there have been significant problems in the WORKED brought about because of religious beliefs - but there have also been wars fought over land, or money or oil."

ARE YOU SURE THE USE OF THE WORD "WORKED" IS NOT A MANGLING OF THE ENLISH LANGUAGE? HOW ABOUT TRYING TO USE THE WORD "WORLD" WHICH IS MORE PROPER.

____________________________________________________________________

"yes - there have been significant problems in the worked brought about because of religious beliefs - but there have also been wars fought over land, or money or oil."

IF YOU ALSO DON'T WANT TO MANGLE THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE PLEASE CAPITALIZE THE FIRST LETTER OF A SENTENCE. ARE YOU YET ANOTHER ONE OF THESE HIGH SCHOOL DROP-OUTS WHO HAVE GANGED UP ON ME?

____________________________________________________________________

"I certainly WONT try to impose them on others or ridicule the beliefs of others."

I BELIEVE WONT IS SPELLED WON'T. AND IF YOU FURTHER DON'T WANT TO MANGLE THE ENLGISH LANGUAGE HOW ABOUT USING PROPER WORDS LIKE WOULD NOT OR AT LEAST WOULDN'T WHICH IS MUCH CLASSIER AND MORE PROPER.

____________________________________________________________________

"But to make public accusation of this, with out proof is not acceptable (to me."

AND IF YOU DON'T WANT TO FURTHER MANGLE THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE PLEASE EITHER DON'T USE PARENTHESIS OR AT LEAST CLOSE THEM IF YOU OPEN THEM.

____________________________________________________________________

My point here is if you want to critique others please critique yourself first. As I said, I don't use spell check and make few errors. You obviously use spell check and still managed to mangle the English Language 4 times in your first post where you attemtped to right a few paragraphs that were actually COHERENT for a change except for the MANGLING and MAULING of the English Language...lol.

Now please stop this nonsense about accusing me of mangling the English Language because I choose not to use spell check and rush my posts. What comes around goes around.....all you did is make a fool of yourself, Ms. Mangle!

Let us get back to debating the subjects at hand. Obviously, you could not cut it as an English Teacher so you are trying to teach English here. Are you married to Web Fabricator who also could not cut it in the real world? You guys make a wonderful couple....do I hear Church Bells ringing? Ding Dong! Ding Dong!

Joe, what ISP's in the area use NAT for their customers? All the major ones I can think of like Comcast, all the various DSL providers that resell Covad lines, etc. I'm not sure about Wide Open West, but usually ISP's that employ NAT to save money on address space are limited to mom and pop dialup providers and those hole in the wall point to point wireless ISP's... both of which have sort of gone the way of the dodo.

I was part of a really early beta test Sprint did for wireless broadband beamed from the Sears Tower back before we really had much broadband at all in the area. It was absolutely remarkable at the time (Around 1997 when ~5mbit down when most people were on 33.6kbit connections!!!) but holy cow the NAT transversal was an absolute nightmare. Customers complained constantly about not being able to use a lot of internet services because of lack of control over any kind of port forwarding.

Those were the days! ;)

Fake Barack,

Once again, please, research your claims before you post them. The reason your IP address doesn't change is because it never goes inactive. Back to your friends at Denny's, if you never leave, you'll always have the same table. Your internet connection works the same way.

So yes, if you never disconnect, your table never opens up, and you retain your IP. I really don't understand why you're even trying to argue this with me. So you paid a repair man $173 for something which you could have easily done yourself since you apparently are some kind of expert. Do you honestly think that repair man is making $346 an hour? Pulling down over $700k a year to go to people's houses and swap out DSL filters?

You truly must live in a magical fantasy land.

Keep in mind, I only posted in this thread to lend my expertise to the person curious about IP addresses. You were the one who decided to make an issue of it. ;)

Either way, your poor attempts at rebuttals is nothing short of hilarious. This blog post is currently being passed around my office as the funny link of the day. Please, tell us more about how the Internet works, and what "mumble jumble language" I'm using! We're all dying to know!

T.B., I'd stop, but we're laughing too hard. I can't wait to see what this genius has next for us.

Throw into the IP talk the fact that a lot of providers also implement some form of NAT; which makes multiple people 'look' as if they have the same IP address to the outside world. Internally on the provider's network they have different ones, but to the outside they have the same one (one of the provider's NAT address).

There is no one rule on how each provider does their networking. They all have the ability to do it differently and employ any number of addressing and topology schemes as they desire.

Hmm someone proved me wrong, I know, back to discussing religion! That'll get em!!!

Web Fabricator,

My IP address does not default to a new IP every 24 hours by default or every few days. I have had the same IP number for a while now.

At one time I had the same IP number for over a year.

Host Chris can check my IP and it will be the same today as it was last week.

A few weeks ago I had an ATT guy at my home because my connection was running slow. He fixed it and my IP changed. He obviously had to disconnect my router located in my sump pump room and reset it after he was done repairing the problem. He had to install a new router and filter.

So if Host Chris wants to check he will see I had one IP a few weeks ago. And a new IP the last week or two.

I can read my IP number(address) on my computer.

Despite my IP changing, I chose to keep my same identity as I enjoy being Barack. I could have changed my identity with the IP change but chose not to.

What you are writing is hogwash. Host Chris can easily prove that by checking my IP number. He is free to use me as an example if he wishes.

And what you said in your last post contradicts what you said in an earlier post.

As I said you are nothing but a Web Farbricator who uses mumble jumble language to confuse the naive. My ATT repairman explained to me how it works and it does not work as you explained. He is an expert.....you are a phony web fabricator bloggin on the interent. He got paid 173 dollars for his visit which lasted a half an hour. It does not seem your talent commands any price as you are spewing it all for free since no one is willing to retain you or pay you for your nonsense.

Thank you!

Web Guy and Ken --

You both know better. Keep scratching that rash and it will only get worse. Leave it alone and it will (eventually) go away.

T.B.

ANN E.,

As you so correctly stated, "you may be in denial about your multiple personality disorder."

Now why don't you guys all grow up and blog about the subjects Host Chris recommends on his threads. I am just trying to show you how silly this game is you are all engaged in and how it will get you nowhere.

I never heard of any of you guys and yet you all began attacking me personally instead of my views.

I have a right to be Agnostic. You have a right to be whatever religion you choose. I have a right to state that all religions are contradictory and man made. If you disagree with me tell me why and provide some proof other than faith that religion is the word of God and not the word of man.

People who invested 50 billion dollars in Bernard lost it all. They all said they trusted him and had faith in him. Well, faith took its toll on them! All I am saying is be careful who or what you have faith in. Look for facts, truth and proof in whatever you do in life.

Don't fall prey to people who tell you we can not answer your questions but you must have faith in us! That concerns me!

As a girl if you meet a guy in a bar and he asks you to trust him and go home with him, do you have faith in him and go home with him??? If you trust him based on faith, it could be your last day on this beautiful earth. I am asking people to think and be wise. That's all!

Thank you!

Fake Barack,

It would do you some good to do some research in how DHCP works before trying to make a point about things you don't understand. DHCP, or Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol is how most ISP's assign IP addresses. Since there are a finite number of possible IP addresses (at least until IPv6 takes hold) most ISP's own fewer IP addresses than they have customers under the assumption that they can over-sell because not everyone is going to be utilizing their internet connection at all hours of the day.

When you plug your cable modem in or connect to your PPPoE DSL connection your router broadcasts looking for a DHCP server to get an IP address, the DHCP server then responds in one of two ways-

1. If it doesn't recognize the MAC address (a unique hardware identifier of your modem) it will assign you an available IP address for whatever amount of time the DHCP server is configured for. This is referred to as a DHCP lease, and is usually anywhere from a few hours to a few days, but almost always defaults to 24 hours.

2. If your MAC address exists inside of the DHCP's IP lease table, it will assign you the IP address it had assigned you previously.

To dumb this down even further, imagine when you get group assignments for your Theology 101 course and you're going to meet your classmates at Denny's.

You walk in the door, look for the hostess, who realizes that you're new and shows you to your table. Then say you go outside to get something out of your car. This time you walk in the door, the hostess recognizes you, and you go back to your table. DHCP works the same way, in order to get a new IP address, just like in order to get assigned to a new table a reasonable amount of time has to pass.

So, if you had bothered to do a modicum of your own research on the matter before snapping back in to your standard know-it-all persona you would realize how entirely ridiculous it is that I'm posting as 5 people at once by power cycling my modem. It's not as simple as that, my brief explanation of how IP addresses worked left out the finer details like lease length because it wasn't relevant at the time.

In regards to my alleged "personal attacks", pointing out you're a troll is no more of a personal attack than saying the sky is blue. Sorry, try again next time. I can see that you're running out of steam now that Chris banned your gimmick posting as Barack Obama ability. Before you post anything else about IP addresses, I recommend doing some research on your own before I have to come back and prove you wrong again.

Here is a good place to start: www.google.com

Some of us may not belong to any faction at all.

Why is it that everyone has to be labeled in some way. I despise waste in government and don't believe in high taxes. I do not think that government in general should try to solve all problems for all people. Our government (local, state and national), in my opinion, is too large, too cumbersome, and extremely inefficient. However, I don't also see a conspiracy of some kind behind every action or inaction of the government. However, this does not make me a supporter of the "Napergate" faction. Conversely, not being a "Napergatian", does not make me a member of the "Establishmentarian" either.

I am not a religious person - that is I don't find it necessary to attend services at a church/temple/mosque or take part in some organized faith based structure or belief system. I have my own beliefs and choose not to discuss them or debate them. I certainly wont try to impose them on others or ridicule the beliefs of others. I have my own spiritual beliefs and they work for me - in my own way. You can believe what ever you like - if it works for you, fine. I know some very fine, ethical, moral people who never go to church or profess any kind of spiritual beliefs of any kind. I also know people who have a deep abiding faith that is integral to their lives and are very good people - not brain washed dupes or unintelligent individuals. It is simply what they believe in. yes - there have been significant problems in the worked brought about because of religious beliefs - but there have also been wars fought over land, or money or oil.

I believe that people have the right to openly express their opinions. However, I also believe that having this freedom of expression carries a responsibility - shouting fire in the crowded theater when there is no fire is one example. Not making unsupported or unverifiable statements is another. I might think that someone is a thief and a liar. But to make public accusation of this, with out proof is not acceptable (to me.

I also believe that it is my right to disagree with someone posting in an open forum. However, my disagreement is not a personal attack - it simply means that I don't feel the same as them or see the events in a different light. If you do not want to be disagreed with, then don't post. But also, if you disagree, be intelligent about it - don't resort to name calling or belittling the other poster.

That's my two cents worth on the issue. - And by the way, I don't use my real name in posting because there are two many insane people in the real world who can get completely out of hand over the slightest issue - or insult - real or perceived.

Web Fabricator,

I see this time you left your 4 girl friends in the sump pump room after you let the rabbit out of the hat about your ability to change your IP number.

I could tell those 4 girl friends were girls you created to pat you on the back. I guess they dislocated their shoulders patting you on the back.

You also need to grow up like Mickey Mouse. Discuss the subjects posted by Host Chris. More than anyone else I have discussed the subjects posted and even at length.

Since Host Chris made a choice not stop the personal attacks, I will now counter attack you Web Fabricator, Mickey Mouse, and any other loser who attacks me personally instead of my views.

Host Chris made a great recommendaton that you cease and decist from personal attacks. You and Mickey Mouse have unfortunately chosen not to. Therefore you will get some of your medicine back to see how well you can handle it!

I think it is well know on this blog site who started the personal attacks. Therefore, when the kitchen get hot don't go crying to Host Chris like a whining cry baby. Next time don't start a fight you can't finish!

I am not Ken, am not Web Guy, am not Anomi-mouse, am not Barbie, am not Britney am not Santa Claus! I don't think I'm Barack, unless I may be in denial about multiple personality disorder :-)

Fake Barack,

Why is it impossible to believe that more than one person thinks you're a troll?

Maybe there are three factions on this blog, the Napergatians, the Establishment, and the Eye-Rollers.

Can you guess which gang I belong to?

Ken,
As you know I was forced to change my name from Barack Hussein Obama to Barack. Yes, that put me in the category of Napergatians as they also use their first names.

As you also know I had a very unique style that was very different than the Napergatians. I was forced to stop using my unique style as it was not approved by the Host.

I guess I was asked to conform. Now that I have conformed you have labeled me a Napergatian. I am not offended by that term. If I were to choose between Napergatian and Establishment, I would rather choose to be a Napergatian. I also lived in this town when the Napergate Man was running his ads and trying to shake the Establishment. Like most people in this town I have a lot of respect for him and the legacy he left behind. While I don't count myself as one of his followers, I do believe he reached an ICONIC STATUS n this town....at least to many!

However since this is the USA and you don't have to choose between the Demorcratic or Republican parties in national politics or between Napergatian and Establishment politics in local politics, I consider myself an INDEPENDENT. If I ever run for office in Naperville it will be as as INDEPENDENT! I don't see eye to eye with the Napergatians or Establishment! But agree obviously more with the Napergatians.

I have many Napergatian and Establishment friends in town. I also have Christian, Muslim and Jewish friends in town. Even though I am Agnositic, I also don't mind if you call me a Christian. Muslim or Jew. I consider them all good people. I simply disagree with their contradictory religions that I find divisive.

I guess you proved Anonymous' earlier point that if anyone disagrees with you he is immediately labeled a Napergatian. It shows me how shallow minded you are. Many of my statistics and facts are obtained from the Napergatians and CM Bob as they are the only ones who seem to dig anything up. Yes, I do repeat many of those statistics as I believe they are credible. I repeated some from Bubo regarding UAW pension benefits. I trusted him. Does that make me a Buboist?

As far as the 100,000 views per week that came directly from a Sun Executive. What are the Napergatians guilty of.....believing former Host Ted and quoting him? He admitted it was his number and that he made a mistake. He was not sure if it was a weekly number or monthly number....he said it was all mixed up and confusing from what I recall. If anything it showed the Napergatians were credible and not repeating each other but in fact were quoting a source who developed and ran the blog site. Host Ted was very proud when he thought he achieved that number of views. I trust he made an innocent mistake. And he was not a Napergatian! He had lots of fights with the Napergatians especially early on. He was a neutral Host doing his job the best he knows how to do it. Just like Host Chris! Hosts are not perfect and are capable of making mistakes. What is wrong with you, Ken? How loose can your bearings possibly be?

As far as Napergatians, I believe we had 300 of them. Many of them identified themselves, told us where they worked or what businesses they own. You have never identified yourself. Yesterday you blogged as Anoni-mouse! So who are you to question identities of others!!!

There were 50 Napergatians blogging in one day each writing a book or at least a long chapter at the peak. Common sense indicates it could not be only a dozen people as someone suspected. Again, as has been said before, the Napergatians proved their numbers many times at the election booths where you can really count numbers....that is a better measure than numbers on a blog site.

I doubt anyone is going to drive from one Starbucks to another just to get another identity for one post and especially not when gaslone was $4.49 per gallon in the summer. If I understood Web Guy your IP does not change if you turn your computer on or off. It stays the same. I have 2 desktops and 2 laptops at my home and to the best of my knowledge they all have the same IP number that does not change. My router is in my sump pump room in the basement and in no way I am going to screw my system that works perfectly by attempting to disconnect and reconnect my router. Maybe Web Guy has the confidence to do such a thing as he is an expert and apparently did it to attack me as 5 different posters. I called him out right away from the style of his writing before he even admitted it could be done.

If you followed this debate, I did not want to change my identity. I enjoyed it and fought for it. Now if I was fighting for my right to blog as Barack why would I want to blog as multiple people. I think that would be a little bit of a contradiction. The bonehead you are, I doubt you know what contradiction means.

It appears the only friends you have are mice with you being the Head Mouse! I really feel bad for you, Ken! Get a life! Get some friends! As I said earlier read a book or two and increase your vocabulary and comprehension so it extends beyond mouse and cult! Grow up! Mature! Stop being so childish!

I don't see any Napergatians "hijacking" any threads right now or last week or the week before. They appear to only show up when a Blog Thread is put up that interests them. They obviously have no interest in religion as I do. They have no interest in State Politics as I do. And they have no interest in quantifying their numbers. And they don't hijack threads. They simply blog when a thread excites them....mostly if it concerns city waste and high taxes. That seems to be their specialty. They appear focused on their objective like a laser.

I do agree with the Napergatians though when they say you are here to attack bloggers for the sole purpose of getting your rises and highs. Personally, I think that is childish. I would like to see you write a couple of paragraphs on a subject posted on a thread. And keep in mind I never attacked you until you attacked me. You are always the first to start up Ken. You enjoy starting up with bloggers. if you want to dish it out, you need to be a man and take it..

My record shows I enjoy discussing the subject matter and a having a good debate with fellow intellectuals...not a Mickey Mouse!

Thank you!

Well, Barak, that 300 bloggers that the Napergatians claim was as much of a true number as the 100,000 hits a week for the site. As for attacking others, you seem to be the one who is doing that. You are holding true to the cult credo of personal attacks and false statements when you have nothing useful to say. You can change your name, as many napergatians have, but you can't change your cult tactics.

HO HO HO.....Merry Christmas Naperville Sun Editors!!! Elect Scott Huber to the U.S. Senate!!!!

Ken,

If there are 300 bloggers blogging they will automatically take over a thread due to their sheer numbers. The Napergatians did not take over every thread. If you do your research, they only blogged on threads related to the city that interested them. They could usually be found on two threads and not the the other 8 of the Main Page. I never seen them on the the School District Threads for example.

You have more posts than any other blogger on this blog site, so I am a little surprised you would be accusing anyone of taking over a blog site. You are so egotistical you wanted to take over this blog site and moderate it even though you have no journalism background....lol.....if you ran this blog site we would have Ultimate Fighting instead of a blog site.

As far as this library deck, it was never needed whether we had a good economy or bad economy. In the good economy, the city did not have the money to build it. It was going to borrow 20 million it did not have to build it. A city is always smarter to save the money and build than borrow the money to build. Any time you live on borrowed money, you risk bankruptcy even if you are a city.

When an economy is good the city should not be thinking of wasteful ways to spend money. It should be putting aside some money for the rainy days.

California is looking at an $18 billion decifit. New York is looking at a $15 billion deficit. Naperville is looking at $72.4 million deficit when you combine pension and operating. These deficits did not happen overnight in a vacuum. They started in a good economy and got worse in a bad economy.

The City of Naperville has been on a long term spending streak. Their drunken sailor spending habits finally caught up with them. Their bad habits were always there but simply magnified in a bad economy.

Our city officials our so thrift conscious they are willing to spend millions of dollars of taxpayer money to fight a "he said, she said, Furstenau case." They first had an opportunity to settle it for a simple apology and later a five digit number. They refused due to big egos and now we will waste 5 to 10 million dollars just like we did on the Napergate Case 10 years ago....dejavu all over again!

Thank you!

____________________________________________________________________

PS. What really puzzles me about whiners like you Ken, is why you did not choose to blog on a Napergate free Blog Site. Editor Tim West offered the Establishment folks a Napergate free Blog Site and yet you guys refused to go blog with him. I don't undertand why not? When you get what you want, you obviosuly don't appreciate what you have...kind of like a whining baby! Keep whining Ken....one day someone will shelf your whining....it is getting very old!

The only reason you blog Ken is because you enjoy attacking others. If you truly wanted to express your opinion you would have expressed it on All Points West. He selected many of the same topics you see here. You did not go there because there were no Napergatians to attack....you are a very very sick person, Ken! May God heal you soon!

Barak, you have your history wrong. Jim and Ted were tired of the cult taking over every thread, like you have done recently. They asked the cult members to back off, like Chris has asked you, and like you, they have not. I personally like it when you and your fellow cult members make your wild claims of success as it gives me something to chuckle about.

Speaking of those wild claims, you don't think the economy has something to do with not building the library deck? All your claims of Napergate victories can be traced to a bad economy, not a political group that exists in your imagination. But if you need to inflate your ego, as your chosen name here shows, feel free. I still need the occasional laugh, which is all you are good for.

To Ann E;
Very well stated!

Barack II,

No one is cancelling their subscription to the Sun because of controversy.

No one is going to stop reading this blog site because of controversy.

Controversy sells! Readers like controversy!

Threats of cancellation are simply empty threats directed in a way to intimidate a Newspaper. Newspapers get these threats all the time. They are not intimidated. The one who cares enough about a newspaper to threaten a cancellation, is most certainly the ONE WHO WILL NEVER CANCEL!

Editor Tim West tried to run a blog site only for Establishment Folks. He censored all Napergatians! Well, we know what happened to his Blog Site. It went down the drain. The Establishment Folks really don't want to pat themselves on the backs when no one is looking or participating.

At one time some Establishment Folks complained to former Host Ted and Moderator Jim, that the Napergatians are annoying them. So the Host and Moderator demanded the Napergatians move to the old Napergate Thread that had been archived for over a month.

The Napergatians, having no choice in the matter, moved to the old Napergate Thread. The Establishment Folks who were so annoyed over the Napergatians, ended up following them there on a very old Archived Thread to debate them. The thread ended up being the busiest thread ever put up by the Naperville Sun with over 900 posts. Most of the new threads could not take off since everyone was debating on the old archived Napergate Thread about nearly any topic. Eventually, the former Host and Moderator realized they made a mistake and opened the floodgates, once again to the numerous Napergatians with little to no restrictions to blog and post on any thread about the relevant subject matters.

People whine and don't even know what they are whining about sometimes. They could be hungry or need to use the facilites. They whine about my choice of a handle like children. They simply need something to whine about.

I am glad Host Chris is giving them the minimum attention they need until they finally grow up and become mature adults who can intellectually debate and reason. I bet Host Chris never imagined in his wildest dreams when he volunteered for this assignment he would be running a Kindergaten Class. Let us see how long he is wiling to run this Kindergaten Class before he submits his resignation to the CEO of the Sun-Times Group.

Thank you!

-------------------------------------------------------------------

PS. And I do agree with Host Chris that the Naperville Sun Blog Site is not only more successful than other Sun sister newspapers but all newspapers in the area. And the newspaper's hard edition is successful despite losing a third of its subscribers in the Internet Age. The Daily Herald went from 6479 to 1668 in the last decade for its Naperville Edition. Almost lost 75% of its subscribers. I got the information from a Daily Herald Classified Agent who was making a random call of solicitation to my office for advertising. I assume they must really be hurting to be making random calls of this nature. I think and suspect the Daily Herald in Naperville will fold soon giving the Naperville Sun a monopoly in town. I hope the Naperville Sun continues in its present progressive path despite no longer having any competition in the near future.

Part of the way this could be looked at, without saying who should bow down to who, (I don't want be perceived as telling anyone what to do, just sharing my thoughts) is that a successful blog will bring more readers and posters to the Sun's news corporation, more hits online will hopefully develop into an added-value news source that will in some way generate more advertising income to the Sun's online presence. As we all know many hard-copy print versions of newspapers are suffering severely, the future for written news online must be developed into a financially fiscal enterprise, in my opinion, to keep these entities in business in the future. The online written news sources give news corporations a unique opportunity to converse with readers that print versions can never offer to this extent. It's time to work on advertising revenue with these blogs, and cultivate the blogs into a positive experience for the blogger and a busy community to the news source, to boost revenue by being able to charge more for the banner ad at the top of the blog that pays the Sun every time there is a hit to the page, and more so every time someone clicks through on the banner, in my opinion.

A successful blog can indeed help to support the success of a newspaper's online presence, and I think should be cultivated to be so while figuring out how this successful blog and it's traffic can generate much needed ad revenue to the news organization, growing into a strong new entity for a business that is seeing dwindling profits in it's print versions.

I guess the success of an inflammatory blog also produces hits, but is the life of the blog sustainable, if the bloggers experience ultimately drives them from participating in the blog? Something huge to think about as newspapers are facing a time when what they write may soon only be read online.

Barack, While Anonymous never said he/she/it would cancel the subscription, it stands to reason, being a paying customer that if he/she/it doesn't get his/her/it's way that he/she/it would take their business elsewhere,, doesn't it? I mean the whole premise of that post was, the Sun should bow down to the customers wishes, is it not?

Point being, while one pays to subscribe to the Sun, the blogs are an added bonus, available to anyone, paying customer or not. To imply that because he/she/it is a paying customer and should get a say in how the blog is run is stretching it.

By Anonymous on December 21, 2008 2:41 PM
"By Anonymous on December 21, 2008 12:45 PM

So in other words, if you don't like how the blog is run you will cancel your subscription to the Sun? Sounds kind of petty if you ask me. I to am a long time subscriber, and I can separate the paper from the blog. One doesn't affect the other. Now, if the paper changed, say into the investigative paper the Napergatians demand I would cancel my subscription in a heartbeat. But, seeing as that will never happen, I will continue to be a subscriber.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Anonymous 12:45pm never threatened to cancel his subscription to the Naperville Sun. He was just making some suggestions.

You accuse him of threatening to cancel his subscription and call it "kind of petty if you ask me."

Suddenly in your infinite wisdom, you threaten to cancel your subscription to the Sun if they become an investigative newspaper.

Apparently, your logic and reason can not even last the length of one post. "Kind of petty if you ask me" that you are threatening to cancel your subscription if the Naperville Sun made some changes and possibly saved you some taxes by keeping a closer eye on government.

Ken,

Thanks for refering to me as a Napergatian. I take that as a complement. While I never met the Napergate Man or worked on any of his agendas, I met many neighbors who are Napergatians. They are wonderful people who only want to keep our government waste in check and keep our taxes low. That is there only agenda....they have no other hidden agenda!

I also think most of what the Napergatians have written on this blog site is very meaningful. If you follow city council meetings as I do, you can see that the City Council gradually adopts the Napergatian ideas without giving them credit.

Just to give you an example. The Napergatians have been hollering and screaming about how wasteful this library deck will be for quite a long time. Two years later the city council is ready to SHELVE the unnecessary and unaffordable elephant project. Unfortunately, since it took the council a while to listen to the Napergatians, the taxpayers lost a cool one million dollars in "SUNK COSTS." What a waste of money by a city that has a budget forecast in the negative to the tune of 10-11 million dollars next year.

If any SHELF life has expired, Mr. Ken, it is your SHELF life.

Your vocabulary appears limited to the word mouse and cult. Read a book and try to enhance your knowledge and comprehension. You really seem illiterate to most bloggers whether they are Establishment or Napergatians.

Thank you!

___________________________________________________________________

PS. Furthermore I know 2 city council members personally. They have told me they read this blog site frequently to try to get a pulse for the community. I have never met Councilman Bob but obviously he also reads this blog site and occasionally even posts. Since our council members are reading and listening, we need to keep this blog site respectful and above board.

"By Anonymous on December 21, 2008 12:45 PM

Just to clarify one point. While this may indeed be a "free" forum that it remains free is also up to the discretion of the corporate owners. I am a Naperville Sun subscriber and have been for over 20 years which definitely makes me a customer and within most definitions a long term customer to boot."
_____________________________________________________________

So in other words, if you don't like how the blog is run you will cancel your subscription to the Sun? Sounds kind of petty if you ask me. I to am a long time subscriber, and I can separate the paper from the blog. One doesn't affect the other. Now, if the paper changed, say into the investigative paper the Napergatians demand, chasing their tired conspiracy theories and vendetta against the NPD, I would cancel my subscription in a heartbeat. But, seeing as that will never happen, I will continue to be a subscriber.

BTW, Anonymous, feel free to seek other sites if this one doesn't suit you. For that matter , start your own. If as you claim, the majority of users don't like the rules here, you would have a sure fired success on your own. That way, you can set the rules, until then, we are all guests at Chris's site and have to respect his decisions.

By Naperville Sun editors on December 21, 2008 1:36 PM
Obviously something like this topic is more of an open topic and the rules are relaxed a bit. I'd like everyone to stop talking about the poster known as Barack and piling on him. It's not fair to him either and if you attack him he'll have to defend himself. If everyone doesn't want that, then stop calling him out. With the theme of the new year coming up, let's start over and let bygones be bygones.

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Naperville Sun Editors,

Thank you for your kind comments and allowing reason and logic to prevail.

Have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

Barak, while you accuse all posters of nefarious schemes, yours is most obvious. It is obvious that you are a member of the Napergate Cult that has found a semi humorous way to keep bringing up your ideas and constant references to your cult leader. As with most jokes, your shelf life has long expired.

Just to clarify one point. While this may indeed be a "free" forum that it remains free is also up to the discretion of the corporate owners. I am a Naperville Sun subscriber and have been for over 20 years which definitely makes me a customer and within most definitions a long term customer to boot.

There are other forums which charge, or require an "account number" to establish a customer relationship, and a few other schemes that work to keep the trolls at bay and discussion on track.

Potluck has never been operated like a true forum since it's inception. The true value of Potluck to the parent corporate organization has never been clarified or even defined. The only benefit, if any, appears to be the occasional, episodic use of Potluck comments to fill available column inches on a slow news day. Clearly there have multiple times when posters have given the Naperville Sun and it's corporate affiliates great opportunities to do some investigative journalism and, to date, there does not appear to have even been one instances where such an opportunity has been leveraged into a new investigative report.

Regardless, the fist fights and street brawls and name calling have become too commonplace, pervasive, and systemic. The longer the Naperville Sun allows this wild west mentality to permeate Potluck the worse it is likely to become. As such, those to whom Host Chris hopes to appeal to reason and voluntarily act responsibly will most likely give up and leave Potluck in disgust and frustration. If what remains when these users are gone is of some use or benefit to Potluck or the Naperville Sun then by all means... be my guest and gloves off to all.

In my humble opinion, Chris—these discussions will not get back on track while we must step over the flaming troll every few posts, while he points fingers and does not acknowledge it's he, himself that is stirring the pot. As long as he is allowed to turn every topic into his own soapbox and his own agenda, masked ineffectively with a few on-topic lines of copy, any new topic of relevant discussion will be quite unsuccessful, in my opinion.

I would also like to discuss these issues with the Sun. If not, these issues will drive some of us away, I believe.

Fake Barack,

Surely we must all be the same person. It's entirely logical that there is only one person in Naperville who thinks that the discussion of faith has no place on a newspaper's blog site discussing local issues. Why don't you invite some of your junior college class mates from Theology 101 to Starbucks with you to discuss this week's lectures instead of spewing them here? Wouldn't that be a much more appropriate venue?

There's a reason no one takes street preachers seriously and why most people just avert their eyes to avoid any eye contact to not give an open invitation for them to be spoken to. The reason for this is, no matter how convoluted of a reasoning you've hypothesized from this week's college lectures, is because people don't want to discuss their faith with a screaming idiot on a street corner. Similar to how no one comes to a blog for local news to have deep life-changing theological discussions.

In your one post we've got multiple attempts at trolling. First dismissing anyone who disagrees with your ridiculous diatribes as being the same person. Then you move on to boast about your self esteem, work in a little off-topic religious flame bait, and close with a high and mighty "Well while YOU GUYS were posting here, I was PUMPIN' IRON!" The only way you could have closed your post with a more pathetic one-line zinger would be to include something about how while we were all here watching Star-Trek on our computers you were out on a date with a cute girl or something equally childish.

For someone who points fingers and labels people as "keyboard rambos" you sure enjoy typing off-topic novellas in pretty much any thread that Chris will approve your posts in.

@Anonymous on December 21, 2008 10:15 AM

I couldn't agree more. The way this site is moderated creates an environment which is more similar to Lord of the Flies than any actual online community someone would want to be part of. Chris I realize that you're just doing what you're told to do, but is there possibly an email address for someone higher up we could submit feedback to in order to get some kind of sensible terms of use drafted for the various blogs the Sun hosts? With how far down river the newspaper industry is without a paddle these days, I would think it would be in your best interest to create a vibrant online community instead of a wasteland of gimmick posters like Fake Barack here who cries censorship at every possible opportunity.

As I've said before, moderating to keep threads sensible and on-topic isn't censorship. If someone like Fake Barack here wants to use a blog as a sounding board for this week's college essay homework, not approving his posts isn't censorship, it's good moderation. In losing one person's posts, you're inviting all the people who are driven away by off-topic extremism.

People like our wonderful gimmick Barack here can create their own blog or forum online for free where they can post whatever they want. Why give them free reign to ruin this one?

Give it a rest Anonymous. As of now, the owners of this site have made it clear the format is not changing. If you don't like the format, you can either leave, or ignore the offending posters, both Napergatians or Establishment.

As far as equating this site to a business with customers,that is a stretch. I believe to be a customer, one needs to purchase either an item or service, which negates your analogy as last time I looked, this was a free site, no $$ required to post here.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people think they are entitled to make demands of others if life doesn't fit their idea of Utopia.

Anonymous, if your job requires you to kiss butt, that is too bad for you. Many of us don't have to spend life doing so, worried about losing their job, nor don't need nor want everything dictated by those who spend their lives looking for ways to be offended and demand change.

Well Host Chris,

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on what the role of the moderator is or should be to keep Potluck discussions on the topic and not on individual personalities. Then, of course, there is the value of Potluck to your corporate owners and they must decide for themselves if there is more value in continuing to condone street brawl behaviour which is driving users away from Potluck or if there is more value to be gained by conducting Potluck with rules consistent with other public forums which will tend to drive more users to Potluck. Unfortunately, you can't have it both ways and a handful of bad apples have been driving users away for the last several months. I would think that alone would be enough to be of concern to the corporate owners considering the investment that has been made to create and support Potluck.

What I do know is that, by and large, most of the people who live in Naperville are fairly well educated and successful and that comes from the majority of us holding a wide range of private sector jobs with significant responsibility. Being successful in the private sector these days means listening to and understanding what your customers want. Hopefully the powers to be in the organizational structure that owns the Naperville Sun and which make such decisions higher in your company are listening to and care about what your customers have to say on this topic.

Likewise, I hope that all of the other users of Potluck will chime in loud and clear and send you and those powers to be a compelling message about what they want to see in terms of acceptable user behavior. You have made it perfectly clear that you are not the decision maker with the current policy. If enough Potluck users do submit their thoughts and feelings on this matter I do hope that you will at least pass the input of your readers, customers, and users on to those who actually have the responsibility for changing such policies!

By Anonymous on December 20, 2008 9:22 PM

"I, for one, am sick and tired of being repeatedly labeled as a Napergatian regardless of the postion I might have had on the topic of Extra Value Liquors years ago or current issues of today. This is but one example of language that tends to be both dismissive, disrespectful, and inflamatory in term of other users. Human nature being what it is I personally feel compelled to fight back when I am incorrectly labeled as a Napergatian and I imagine other do as well."

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One would think Anonymous would be proud to be called a Napergatian. Most here wear the term on their sleeve and are proud to be called that. Heck, many call themselves Napergatians, even though at present, the term is just a name seeing as they have no organization, no leader and no numbers. One would think the NG Man would be upset that all these wannabes are riding on the coat tails of his legacy, using strong arm tactics to try and squash any opposing view. Somehow I don't recall him being a bully, more a man with tact, education and the desire to make change. This new breed is nowhere near his caliber.

I wonder if Anonymous feels the same way about anyone who has a differing opinion being labeled Establishment? Or once again, is this yet another attempt to silence and censor the opposition?

Ken, I think those posting under anonymous prefer it that way. That way they can't be held accountable for what is said, just blame it on another poster.

I do agree though, everyone should have a unique moniker, as is required on any other type of forum.

Web Guy, Ann, JO, Liz and Anonymous 9:16pm,

Yes, the lesson on IPs was very wonderful. It indicates all 5 of you are the same person. You simply can't stop patting yourselves on the back for agreeing with each other. I hope your arms don't fall out of their sockets while reaching back.

You all use the same words like puppy dog, fake Barack, troll etc. No one gets patted this much on the back unless they are patting themselves.

I am proud to post under my own hanndle of Barack. Don't need to pat myself on the back every hour. My self esteem is very good! You guys need to develop some confidence that can translate hopefully one day into maturity.

Mary Poppins showed a lot of class by thanking me for the debate we had when it was over. I know she is not part of the person pretending to be many in an attempt to influence the Host. She seems to be a very decent person.

Another blogger with the handle "Defend Justice" also saw eye to eye with me on the Blagojevich Case.

In due time more and more bloggers will see I make sense and will see through your ranting, raving and baby whining.

I also have a lot of respect for "By Anonymous on December 20, 2008 9:22 PM" who I enjoy reading and recognize from his style. That blogger is very articulate and insightful. I want to tell him since he asked that he was spot on with everything he said in his latest post.

I think his message was directed to the bloggers I am addressing in this post plus Ken. It did not take Ken long to pop his head and call Anonymous a mouse as he often does if he is not calling him a Napergatian or a member of the "cult."

Unforunately, the majority of bloggers or the one who is trying to be many can not differentiate between the difference in attacking a person as opposed to his views. As Anonymous said we have a right to be as passionate as we want on a subject. I just happen to be passionate in my belief that all religion is created by man. I have not condemned any religion. I am just questioning how so many people believe in these religions based purely on faith.

It is the same as someone believing that some explosion 13 billion years ago created the universe. In my opinion that is also based on hog wash science that requires a huge leap of faith that I am unwilling to take, no matter what any scientist tells me. That simply is a theory that can not be proved.

The bottom line is we don't know how this earth and universe came into being. We don't know if God created us humans from Adam and Eve or if he allowed us to evolve from amebas as Darwin believes. We simply don't know! That is all I am saying! Maybe some scientist will discover humans are the result of 2 mutated eggs laid by turtles or alligators that did not know how to find the ocean. Hindus have faith that when we die we are reincarnated. If we are good we can come back 80 times in 5000 years. If we are bad we can only come back 60 times in 5000 years. The Hindu Man who told me this travels to Hindu Conventions all over the world. He is 100% sure this is what happens. His proof is his faith! He does not believe in Heaven or Hell. Only in reincarnation!

My point is simple. All these religions disprove each other. I am not the one disproving them. It is impossible they are all true. Either one is true or they are all false. I am sure everyone believes their religion is right and all the others are wrong...based on what...you guessed it FAITH!

Sadly the majority of people in America are not wiling to think out of the box or discuss this issue. In the Scandanavian countries and Estonia the majority no longer believe in organized religion. In most of the rest of Europe it is 50% believe and 50% don't believe. Who knows who is right? That is all I am trying to say!

It is quite amazing to me that I would be attacked in this manner for a passionate belief. My philosophy is I will only believe what I can prove. I will not have blind faith in anyone or anything! If someone thinks he knows, please provide some proof. Faith is not proof. Faith amounts to lack of proof!

This Barnie guy asked investors to have faith in him that he was making them 12% annually in the stock market while the rest of us were losing 12% a year. Well, people had faith in him to the tune of 50 billion dollars. Where did faith get them? Nowhere! They were taken to the cleaners for having believed in such blind faith!

If the Muslims want to pray 35 times per week in hopes they will enter the doors of Heaven, I certainly hope they turn out right. I would hate to see all that time they spend praying be all for nothing. That is simply too much work for me!

If there is a Heaven and I am a good man, I believe I will enter the doors of Heaven whether I pray 35 times a week or don't pray. If there is no Heaven, oh well! I am trying to enjoy every day I have left on this Earth in the best way I know how. This may be Heaven and the only Heaven we will ever see. We better make the best out of each and every day while we are still here.

While you guys were being key board Rambos, I got a good 4 hour work out at Lifetime Fitness in Warrenville. I feel great and hopefully I am extending my life on this beautiful earth by being healthy and fit!

Thank you!

Anonymous 12/20, 9:22, maybe if you picked a user name and stuck with it, you wouldn't be wrongly labeled. That's my only beef here. It would be nice if there weren't 100 different anonymouses.

Host Chris,

I do believe you mean well by what you have stated and are sincere.

Fact is I have participated on Potluck and several other web forums for a long time and there are some people who are not polite, who refuse to play nice, and there are a few who really are just spoiling for a fight... and that is without even addressing the whole subject of internet trolls.

In the best interest of the Naperville Sun and Potluck in general to be a viable community forum I really do wish to request that you and the "powers to be" at Naperville Sun reconsider what you allow to be posted. There are issues that affect and sometimes divide this community. There is no reason why this forum for discussing such issues can not and should not be polite and civil. In that regard I would suggest that it is appropriate for anyone to address the pro and con of any issue in, as you stated previously, language that is appropriate for prime time general TV. At the same time, and without getting into censorship or first amendment rights kinds of issues, which really don't apply here anyway, I would sincerely suggest that personal debate, personal insult, or anything else closely resembling two people squaring off to tear each other apart... simply because they don't agree on the issue at hand... has no place on this forum and simply should not be supported or encouraged and the best way to discourage such behaviour is to simply refuse to post garbage like this.

What this means is that people have the ability to be as passionate about any issue as they want but they must hold themselves accountable to discuss the issue period. In way too many past threads we have all seen good contributors sucked up into a debate that turns from being about the issues into a debate about the participants. The only effective way to stop this kind of behaviour in the future is for all user of Potluck to be on notice that if they engage in such tactics that their is a strong likelihood that such posts will not be published and or may be edited or removed if enough people complain about certain content or behaviours.

I, for one, am sick and tired of being repeatedly labeled as a Napergatian regardless of the postion I might have had on the topic of Extra Value Liquors years ago or current issues of today. This is but one example of language that tends to be both dismissive, disrespectful, and inflamatory in term of other users. Human nature being what it is I personally feel compelled to fight back when I am incorrectly labeled as a Napergatian and I imagine other do as well. Once I or anyone else starts defending ourselves the net result is that the thread rapidly deteriorates into a personal debate as opposed to a debate about the issues. I am personally fed up with having to defend myself against those who either can not debate the issues or who simply choose to hijack these threads and personally feel that enough is enough and the Naperville Sun should have come out more strongly on this issue long before now.

Maybe I am wrong, but that is how i see things at present. I do hope everyone who has a passion for making Potluck to be a viable voice of the Naperville community will speak out and either support my position or tell me where I am full of hot water!!! Maybe if Host Chris and the other "powers to be" at the Naperville Sun get a really good handle on how the majority of users of Potluck feel about the personal attacks they will reconsider and tighten the rules and "terms of use" in such a way that will drive more users to Potluck rather than driving others away. It is time to end some of the cyber stalking and keyboard bullies once and for all. I implore all Potluck users to speak out and voice your feelings on what acceptable use should be... !

Web Guy on December 20, 2008 12:21 AM
IP Address 101-

Web Guy on December 20, 2008 12:39 PM

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Web Guy, Thanks for the IP lesson and thank you for summarizing your view on the guy I call puppy dog. The IP lesson certainly answers a lot of questions I have had about previous posters and why many of them follow the same sentence patterns. Their previous claims that since IP addresses are different they must be different people is now something I see in a whole new light.

And your summary of the fake guy is spot on. I'm trying not to be personal in my attack, but I will remind everyone that the fake guy is the one calling all of us who believe in God a bunch of brainwashed sheep! Mighty rich of him to now be complaining of being on the receiving end of criticism, he seemed pretty cocky when he was dishing it out. I've gotten good at simply skipping over his rants.

Web Guy and Ann, I could not possibly agree more.
Stating an opinion under a first name or Anonymous or Web Guy or Inquiring Mind or the like is how most people would post. But, to use a President-elect's name or Albert Einstein or Emo Phillips or David Beckham seems wrong because it is the poster putting their own words in someone else's mouth, so to speak. The only reason I can see that would motivate a poster to use the name of a celebrity is for attention. An insecure person who feels others would not value his opinion under his own name would resort to sesationalistic tactics to gain attention or to stir the pot. Well, the pot seems to have been whipped into a frenzy lately, and I agree that the lengthy diatribes should be ignored.
I also find it quite ironic how others who disagree with his opinion are categorized as 'brainwashed' and other insults and condescending comments ('My dear Mary Poppins' and 'my Muslin friend'...).
One parting word of advice, if you want to be taken seriously, GET serious!

Web Guy,

You nailed it on both of your posts.

-JQP

P.s. Didn't know that about routers and IP addresses. Makes sense, though.

Will not lower myself and respond to personal attacks...please grow up!!!

Thank you!

I couldn't have said it better web guy!

Host Chris,

You have stated you don't approve of personal attacks. The post by the Web Guy is a personal attack. I will not repond!

If you truly don't want people attacking each other why tolerate those who begin it.

You put on an open thread in which you said it is OK to discuss religion there. That is what I did!

If you want me to play by the rules and respect the rules, it is imperative you insist on others to follow your rules.

I suggest you delete the Web Guy post so we can keep this a respectable blog. Name calling is counterproductive!

Questioning religious institutions and their proclamations is not name calling any person or blogger. Just like we have a right to question government, we also have a right to question our religious institutions. Thank God, we live in the United States of America! This is not Iran or Pakistan. Maybe the Web Man should consider moving there where he would not be allowed to question instituions.

Unless, he does not mind a sword right to his throat!

Thank you!

SNAP! You said it all Web Guy...

Web Guy--this is for you, just so FakeBake doesn't think we are feeding his psychosis. If he shared ideas without ridicule and assumption of who his "audience" is and what their intellect is, I would have no problem with his views, as they are his. As he seems to want to share his ideas in a "shove it down my throat and if you don't come to my side you are BRAINWASHED and stupid" kind of way, it becomes trolling and looking for attention. Hopefully he went out this afternoon sledding with his buds, as the fresh air will do him a lot of good. It isn't humorous and there is no room for humiliation while sharing differing viewpoints, in my opinion. This gets us nowhere and is simply a waste of bits.

One of my favorite quotes of his; "I had a TV in my village in Kenya and they were showing real footage of 3 Amercian astronomers landing on the moon."

Now, how old is someone that tells us he watched ASTRONOMERS land on the moon? That did cause me to giggle. Maybe astronauts are also astronomers, but I hope that isn't their primary focus of study!

Ok, now we get ready for a long and eye-crossing reply that spin my words to his advantage, that I will avoid with all my soul :-)

Sorry to feed the troll.

Fake Barack,

Whatever helps you sleep at night. If you can't understand how off-topic rants about religion is trolling, you're either completely new to any kind of social interaction on the internet or you're still trolling. No one here is insecure and refusing to face reality, people don't come to a newspaper's blog site to discuss IL government corruption only to be bombarded with some moron fake-posting as a gimmick Obama looking to discuss the intricacies of religion.

If you honestly think you'll removing the wool that has been pulled over anyone's eyes as they've spent their whole lives blinded to logic by their faith by pretending to be the president elect, or whatever else you're attempting to argue, you're seriously misguided.

I don't think you're amusing anyone else posting what most likely is regurgitated arguments from this week's humanity 101 lectures. It absolutely stinks of a first year college student attempting to be "deep" to me. Anyone else feel the same way?

The former poster who went by Barack Hussein Obama would never have posted more than one or two things if it wasn't for the dozen people complaining about him after every post... Which did nothing but provide additional motivation to keep trolling.

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Web Guy,

I was simply expressing my views on various subjects expressed on these threads.

People attacked me personally because they disagreed with my views.

I think the problem appears most people are in disbelief that all religion can be man made. They are too insecure to face reality. They have a fear of death and thus clutch on to religion as a crutch instead of living and enjoying life to the fullest.

Whether people complained or not, does not make a difference whether I blog or don't blog. I blog because I enjoy writing and if bloggers want to debate me, I also enjoy a good debate with an intellectual of which I am yet to find on this blog site!

Unfortuantely, most bloggers on this blog site except for the Napergatians and the Hosts are unable to put a paragraph together. All they do is complain and whine like cry babies.

And based on what you are saying, it could be all these bloggers is one person whining who has nothing better to do. I am proud to only blog under my unique handle.

I am not ashamed of anything I said. I believe in everything I said. I am proud to stand up for my beliefs. That is why I kept the handle Barack so bloggers know who I am and can hold me accountable for my beliefs or debate me if they like.

Bloggers should really try to address the subjects that Host Chris provides. Instead, I address the subjects and the bloggers or one blogger under many assumed names begins attacking me personally instead of my views and opinions.

It is easy to write 10 posts if each is only one line and pretend to be one person. That takes 10 minutes.

I take my time and try to express and explain myself. I am not into the games of being multiple people to try to win a debate based on ficticious numbers. That is rather childish and appears to be the ongoings on this blog site.

That really is the simple bottom line.

Thank you!

Thank God! I was starting to get worried Hillary, G.W. and even Blago himself were going to show up soon! And if the dead showed up soon I didn't want John Edward showing up!

IP Address 101-

An IP address is a unique identifier for your internet connection. The internet works off IP addressing to route information packets between computers similar to how a phone number routes your call through various wires and switches to another phone. Your internet connection comes from your ISP, then you probably have it plugged in to some kind of wireless router which is sharing your connection to your other computers. Just like all the phones in your house share the same land line phone number, all the computers connected to your router share the same IP address.

So to answer your question, yes, someone can drive around Naperville stopping at six different Starbucks and post using the six different IP addresses of each of their internet connections. Everyone connecting to the alleged Dunkin Donuts wifi during clandestine meetings of the Napergate tree house club would all have the same IP address. Most ISP's also assign IP addresses dynamically, so it is possible however unlikely that two Naperville Comcast subscribers could eventually have the others IP address out of the available address pool.

The reason this is unlikely is largely in part of everyone having wireless routers. Chances are you've got your cable or DSL modem socked away in a closet or on a shelf somewhere plugged in to your router which has been on and running for months or more without being reset. Most routers will keep your connection alive, so your ISP never sees you as being completely idle and disconnecting you... which would force your modem to grab a new IP address.

I'm not sure if displaying IP addresses would solve any problems. From observing a lot of the arguing that goes back and forth here, public IP addresses would do nothing but serve as poor evidence for whatever conspiracy theory or witch hunting session is taking place in a particular thread. People need to pretty much grow up, and most importantly not feed the trolls. The former poster who went by Barack Hussein Obama would never have posted more than one or two things if it wasn't for the dozen people complaining about him after every post... Which did nothing but provide additional motivation to keep trolling.

The anonymity provided by the internet makes for some pretty interesting psychological phenomenons.

Anyway, if you want to read more about how IP addresses and the rest of the internet works, I highly recommend this HowStuffWOrks.com article- http://computer.howstuffworks.com/internet-infrastructure.htm (And maybe even subscribe to their podcasts, they're OUTSTANDING.) You might learn something about Al Gore's greatest invention. ;)

Most ISP's use dynamically-allocated IP's. This means that every time you turn on your computer, you can have a different IP address. I'm pretty sure laptops will also have different IP's depending on what wireless connection they are using.

If we all simply state our opinions without trying to tell other people how to think, what to do, or what is wrong with everyone other than ourselves, I believe conversation here would be much more enlightening, educational and tolerant of people's right to individual natures and beliefs with much less ridicule and hatefulness. Many fewer pairs of underwear in knots.

It's much better participating this evening, after the rule changes, let's see how long it lasts :-)

Chris,

Thank you - the Naperville potluck was getting downright creepy! It would be nice to find a way to also limit length of posts? If you can't make a comment or statement in just a few paragraphs it is not worth making.

I am curious about IP addresses. Is an IP address based on computer or location? Could someone drive around Naperville and post from the same laptop but based on different locations have a different IP address? I'm not implying that this is what puppy dog is doing, but nothing would surprise me. A previous argument was made that a group blogs from the Dunkin Donuts and therefore had the same IP, presumably this would imply that IP is based on location.

Another guy a few weeks ago (Web Guy?) made some very educated comments and indicated the claimed hits on this web site seemed too high (claimed as 100K). He was absolutely correct, in fact it was only 25K. He was very knowledgeable, but as usual driven away by others. If he's still around maybe he could comment?

Thank you, Chris! Hopefully everyone will abide by this rule. I think it will keep the debates more enjoyable for those attempting to actually 'debate' as opposed to 'holding court', and it will hopefully lend more credibilty to the opinions of the posters.
Happy Holidays!