Courts put kibosh on moment of silence in schools

Well, is the moment of silence meant for religious prayer...if so then just semantics & they have not separated church & state. Praying...H. yes we would pray, "Please God let me pass this test & I promise I won't beat up the kid next to me today", "Please God don't let the kid next to me who did not study beat me up on the way home today," "Please God get me through today with all these bratty kids", "Please God let me get through this day with all these whining teachers", "Please God let me get through the day with my grumpy boss/principal"! HA! Oh wait...I think there were a few "Please God, let that hot guy kiss me today on the way home from school", "Please God let that girl do a cartwheel at recess & let me see her undies!" HA! Do kids pray? Oh ya...what they pray for is a TOTALLY different story! Same thing with adults though too! Many pray to win the Megamillions, though some may have things very similar to the above mentioned also! HA! We all know when God is called for! ;-)

I brought this up on the Obama post...why do the Presidents then get to pray during the official government ceremony? If the president wants a blessing personally why not do it privately? I don't see him having all types of denominations doing a prayer representing all people of this country. Of course, you have non believers of anything also. This is the idea of forcing vs choosing for yourself. How is it different than me listening to my teacher & classmates saying the Our Father, than when I have to listen on tv or in person the president's clergy do this? Now I do say those prayers personally, but I am just bringing up the idea of being fair. I don't see the difference between the two. You forced me to listen & go along. I know I don't have to, but I have to wait & listen or put up with it. I would have less a problem with a general "Dear God" than one particular religious belief's prayer. That at least is general & the only ones who would complain is non-believers but then we have "In God We Trust" (general) on our money. So I guess the forefathers said you have to believe in God but what God & how you believe is up to you. You could not be a non-believer then.

I thought they just got rid of the prayer before a sporting event also. Didn't I see that on the web yesterday? Anyone see that?

You know even if you do not give that moment of silence, students will still pray if they want to. Give me a break. It isn't like they are going to stop just like I do not stop. I will pray during the day to keep those dear to my heart safe in the weather or geez no one has to give me a moment of silence at the beginning of my day to pray my students to do well and for me to do my best. I can prayer anytime I want for someone crossing the street safely or to keep safe a motorcyclist who goes by, especially with no helmets. Why should someone force me to pray at a certain time? I believe one's relationship with God is between you & him...or her!!!

Quite frankly St. Paul would probably have more to say if he was around today. Problem with using scripture from the past. God only knows what they would say today. Many kids get it much more than Adults. You'll see Adults to socially inappropriate behavior & their kids tell them they were wrong! It would concern me if they were punished because this association would be a problem & yes if one is spirtual it might be a problem but I really don't think that moment of silence will do it. They probably are that way on the playground etc so they problem are being teased already and that should be dealt with. You don't eliminate the good behavior because others are teasing etc. You get rid of the poor behavior! If we got rid of everything different? OMG...there would be nothing left & we should be celebrating differences not getting rid of them.

Your last argument...I agree public schools may not be the place to "convert" or convince of a particular religion. I would be ok with a world religions class that can be an elective. The 2nd part of it being a family matter...that is used a lot, drug prevention, sex etc. Problem is parents do not discuss these things or some have parents who are ignorant or prejudice etc themselves so to rely just on them is not good. You leave out the factor of other good hearts who also have a influence in the world. I know what you mean but you have to consider other possibilities also...some are not so great, then others should try to help. This is not a easy black or white issue. So many individual specific examples or cases so one size can not fit all here!

Couldn't agree more, Chris. When I first heard about this moment of silence mumbo jumbo my "Oh my, I can just feel the law suits coming" spider sense was tingling. I can't say I'm surprised at all. When I was in school (and granted, this was a long time ago when the culture of this area was much more conservative) the most religious of my friends said a little prayer to themselves before they ate lunch, and that really was all there was to it. If you're religious and you want to quietly pray, you don't need an officially sanctioned time to do it. Furthermore, I think you're completely correct in that most kids in school barely have a grasp on religion outside of it just being routine for their family to go to St. Anne's catholic church every Sunday and attend CCD class once a week.

What is wrong with you people who support the law against the moment of silence?? The majority of people in this country are Christians in some form or other. I am so sick and tired of you liberals (the Sun included and the judge) twisting the works to suit your needs.

What ever happened to majority rule? Why is the minority ruling the majority all the time. You bleeding heart liberals (this does include the Sun and the judge) have twisted the words and laws to suit your needs.

I'll bet that if the Sun editors and the judge were in war and were inside of a foxhole, I'll bet they would have more than a moment of silence.

Mr. 66, did you read the post or did you just see the subject and start typing? Just because I work in the "liberal media" doesn't make me a liberal. I work with several Libertarians and several more conservatives. I voted for John McCain. It's none of your business but I'm not ashamed of it. I don't oppose religion, I oppose this law because I don't think it makes sense, not because of a liberal agenda.

Chris, I could have written your post as I share your point of view completely. Public schools don't need to be a place for prayer or a moment of silence in observance of something religious. To me, this law opens it up for debate, different interpretations, and potential lawsuits. Prayer doesn't need to take place at a certain time or in a certain place and others need not know that the person praying is doing so... or at least that's my opinion.

I remember when we had prayer in public school. We started every day with a prayer. I also remember when we were told that we would no longer have prayer because the government said we should not. I am sure I didn't understand why or really understand what the Supreme Court was all about in 3rd grade. But what I really remember quite vividly about school prayer was what my teacher said during the Cuban Missile Crisis. She stood up one morning and told us that we were going to pray that day, no matter what the Supreme Court said, because the President and the country needed our prayers. I can't imagine any teacher taking that kind of stance today. I am not sure if anything happened to her for doing that but I still remember her and admire her bravery.

Anoni-mouse, What a nice childhood memory you have and what a lesson for a young child to learn. I think it's sad to think that nowadays children would not be able to experience what you did... someone standing up for what they think is right. Nowadays, a teacher that did something like that would probably be fired and blacklisted. Sadly enough, I don't think things always get better with time.

TYRANY OF THE MINORITY

The country was founded by religious refugees fleeing the British Government which had established a State Religion so that Henry the VIII could keep getting married and trying to have a successor to his throne. If there are any experts on this out there, feel free to chime in.

The logical extension was that anyone that didn't want to recognize their King as their spiritual leader was a traitor. Catholics, Quakers, Jews, etc....

This was the fusion of State and Religion that the Constitution refers to. No state established religion.

In more modern times, public schools formerly held morning prayers (back when we had about 1/10 of the current crime rates, single mother rates and minorities could attend inner-city schools that didn't have gangs and double digit body counts for each grade etc etc etc)

According to a Jewish friend of mine, the genesis for the current interpenetration of the (liquid) constitution was the Jewish kids in the South were either coerced or felt coerced into saying the Morning Prayer. Someone sued and had this stopped, I'm sure there is some court case of someone vs. the school district. Again, if someone has the specific court case and history feel free to chime in.

Over the years, this has grown into the current anti-Christian anti-European male movement in society, government, law and the legal system; with the courts doing most of the dirty work by re or de-interpreting the rights of the (Christian) citizens.

I increasingly think of the activist (illiterate) Courts as the new Monarchy. It’s the old Good-King / Bad-Nobles game where the King wrings his hands and the Nobles are never punished or removed for their transgressions. Judge appointments matter.

Where we have now arrived is state-run-persecution of Christians by systematically minimizing their rights.

The more money the state raises, the bigger, more intrusive and more powerful the state becomes; the greater the systematic persecution and exclusion of Christians.

We better hurry up and take their guns away and make sure that no one can discuss politics in a (white) Christian place of worship.

Where we have now arrived is what is referred to in the Federalist Papers as tyranny of the minority.

What ever happened to majority rule? Why is the minority ruling the majority all the time. The majority of people in this country are Christians in some form or other.

Hey Mr. 66? Is that your handle because you are living in 1966? Majority rule doesn't mean you can shove your agenda on kids in the public schools. Please feel free to do whatever you want in your home or church. The founding fathers called for a separtaion fo church and state because when mingled, it weakens both state and church.

You conservatives are such hypocritical crybabies - you're all against goverment doing anything to help people - but you're all for using the government to advance YOUR causes. You don't want the government to pay to help the poor, but you're fine with the government choosing folks' religions, and in people's bedrooms. It makes no sense - no one with any integrity can hold both positions at the same time.

From the opening post "Everyone comes to religion in their own time and circumstances. It is a matter for families to tackle on their own. The public school system has no business getting involved."

Thinking back to my own high school days I am not convinced that one minute of silence every day accomplishes anything. For comparison purposes look at how the national anthem is played before every sporting event (does anyone know how this stupid tradition got started?) and look at everyone who doesn't know how to show the country or the song any respect... people talk and laugh, don't remove their hats, have no clue about putting their hand over their heart, and the applause at the end... what is that all about? Sorry, I'm on board with the best intentions but a very stupid idea.

As for the public school system has no business getting involved... well I disagree. We have to take the entire person as a whole and look at their mind, body, and intellect. An education is far more important than just picking and choosing which subjects are permitted. By learning and discussing subjects is one way for everyone to learn respect, tolerance, and understanding especially of those who have different or opposing views/beliefs. Why is it that "the public school system has no business getting involved" with religion... at the elementary or high school level... but it is ok to have courses in religion and philosophy at the college level? Why is it ok to have health education and talk about sex and STD and how to live a physically healthy lifestyle but it is not acceptable to talk about belief systems including those who do not believe in terms of living a mentally healthy life?

How many American adults understand Islam? or Hindu? or any other non-Christian religions? Of those who are Christians how many understand the fine points of difference between the Catholics and the Greek Orthodox or the Lutherans, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Methodists, Baptists, etc.?

Far more good would be accomplished, in my opinion, by educating all of our children so they are more cognizant of all religions, or at least the major ones, including agnostics and atheists in pretty much the same manner our children learn about history. I recognize there are some who feel very threatened by those who do not believe at all and that there are some who also feel threatened by any religion other than their own. At the same time I firmly believe more social good would eventually be gained by giving all of our children a well-rounded education in spirituality, religion, and belief systems that are practiced throughout the world including agnostics and atheists and others of opposing views than to continue the silly practice that advocates that talking about religion violates separation of church and state. If the entire topic of religion and spirituality and belief is discussed from all angles no one religion gets preferential treatment and if our children end up learning and understanding more about those aspects of life that have not only helped bond people and nations together but which also has driven people and nations apart... how is that a bad thing?

Anonymous, I completely agree with your comparison to the national anthem. When you take something that is supposed to be reverent and you perform it in a public forum where a lot of people just don't get it, it can actually become disrespectful. The example of the people hooting and cheering during the anthem is a good one. The same is true for this school prayer. I can see kids getting made fun of for praying in school, because most of their peers just don't get it.
As to your other point, I agree it's great to educate students about world religions, but educating them is not the same as this moment of silence. You can study Islam, but you wouldn't want all teaching to stop five times a day so all the students could face Mecca and pray, would you? That's the difference between educating and performing the devotions. I attended a Lutheran college, and we had to take three classes on religion as part of our graduation requirements. That was fine because they were educational and did not seek to impose a doctrine, you could choose which classes to take, and it was a private school and everyone there knew what they were getting into. Most parents for whom a religious education is important will enroll their children in a private school. Prayer time is just simply not part of a public school's mission. That's what Sunday school is for.

I just wanted to chime in on one point. In fact, this country was NOT founded by the Puritans as suggested in an earlier post. While the various so called "Puritans" were the original settlers of certain colonies, they were most definitely not the majority nor the first settlers. The majority of colonist's were average folks looking for commercial freedom and success not religious.

Additionally, many years later, as the movement for independence formed, the various movement leaders were fairly evenly spread across the conservative, liberal, religious, and secular. While it was not socially acceptable to openly speak of agnostic or atheistic beliefs, many of the founders private writings confirm their stance. In fact, a clear majority of them showed open disdain for organized religion of any sort.

Now, none of this means that religion and all its references should be banned from schools etc. Instead, it means that they should only be introduced when a true educational value is found. An example of this would be a Religions course that aims to educate on the various religions, their commonalities, their differences, and ultimately how each of them has had an impact on our history. The "moment of silence" simply does not meet this test.

And one other thing I must respond to: the idea that increased religious participation = less crime. This is patently false. The old American West is filled with high levels of religious fervor and crime rates that put today's to shame. Additionally, the extremely secular societies of Western Europe have crime rates lower than have ever existed in the U.S. There is simply no true linkage between the two. On the other hand, size of communities and economic trends has a long proven relationship to crime rates.

Oh well, back to work enjoy your debate folks!

Blemum, it depends on what you mean by "founded." The first settlers were at Roanoke and Jamestown and were sponsored by the crown. They were here to make money. But in my opinion the heart of the nation began in Massachusetts with the Puritan settlements. They were here for religious reasons and anyone who wanted to live in their colony had to accept that their religion was going to be the law of the land. But yes, it is true that in time the "average" citizen grew to greatly outnumber these more religious colonists. And it is also true that many of the founders were not personally religious. But I don't think any, with the possible exception of Jefferson, would have opposed religion being a part of public life. While they may not have been believers themselves, they understood that most people were and didn't see it as being any harm. The First Amendment was never intended to keep nativity scenes out of city hall. As I said, I don't disagree with the moment of silence on constitutional grounds. I just think it's a bad idea.

Chris,

You better brush up on you Benjamin Franklin

What about Ben Franklin? I know he was a deist, but other than that I'm not sure what you are referring to.

Religion isn't a bad thing. It's the ignorant assumption that everyone is the same religion (and intolerance when it turns out that they are not - are you listening Mr. 66?) that IS a bad thing.

Sure, yeah, the majority of people in the US are likely Christian. I'll go with that. But oh, what kind of Christian? Catholic, Episcopal, Baptist, Seventh Day Adventist, Mormon, Lutheran, Christian Scientists, Jehovah's Witnesses...and the list goes on and on. As far as I know there is no such thing as "General Christian". All of these denominations have Jesus in common and that's pretty much it. When you look at it that way, as you indeed should, there is no such thing as a "majority" religious affiliation in the United States.

Something to think about.

This discussion of prayer in public school has been going on for many, many years. The solution ia quite elementary. Public schools should not exist

Bubo...

How are the Christians being persecuted. I think I have that right...what you said? Correct me if I'm wrong? No one is saying you can't pray if you are any religion on a public school. What they are saying is you can't force everyone to or any particular prayer...the King is now the teacher or principal that is trying to get you to believe/practice what they do. Why should someone tell me now you have to pray? What if bosses said that? You can imagine what would happen!

Anonymous...

And you want to talk about Catholics who also talk in church right? :-) I have no tolerance for that. Maybe because I am also on my students in class about it but, YES you will get 1 dirty look from me & then you well get the "Excuse Me!...I know, I know...one of these days the cops will probably be called because someone will probably smack me in church of all places, but I can't not say anything! Then again other social norms of the past are going. Use to be men opened doors for women and hats were taken off in a building, men didn't sit before a women & they got up if she did to leave. These changes are related and influence each other.

Your question on religion classes is ok, but not what religion or way to practice. If you are discussing many religions that is ok but favoring one would not be. You also have to keep in mind that the teachers have their own beliefs & thus would or may not know other religions. Heck, at times we have them teaching other subjects they have no background in. Don't even get me started on that! Also, you do have to take into consideration the age of the child & what they can understand. In college they have, or rather should have, hypothetical thinking. Unfortunately, reserach shows only 25% do at graduation time. Logical thinking is still an issue for many, so it is hard to discuss these abstract concepts. I still remember my Chemistry teacher asking us JR year the first day of class, Which weighs more, a pound of metal or a pound of feathers? He was assessing where he had to start. Many did get thrown off by this. Heck, I might even have some concern with my own extended family teaching my faith to my child. Even within the Catholic faith boy is there a wide variety of what is taught. Having gone to a Catholic grammar school even the teachers were different & the 2 priests were. Now you have a public school with teachers who may be different faiths. Once you get past the golden rule of just being nice to each other, basic civil rights etc then it gets a bit different and can be confusing for children. Some believe in a heaven & others do not. Some believe in Saints, others do not etc. I do agree in a general way and an age appropriate way it could be a good thing but it also could do more damage depending on the teacher and how much parents support at home. You may want an evening class for the parents to go to & learn. The final word at grammar school & HS level, as you know, is the school board who for some give in to parents who complain because of their own ignorance and prejudicial bias. I agree with the NPE I just want to have you keep in mind the cognitive abilities of different age ranges and other variables that can potentially get in the way.

Southeast Side/66: Majority makes sense at times. Actually we vote on things this way & laws are created as the majority cries out this is not right. What matters is also what the issue is. The Social Consciousness has changed on what is Child Abuse because the quantity & quality has changed. This is what we are saying is the minority of the past is now becoming the majority for many things & saying things need to change. We are suppose to be able to freely practice whatever we believe or not believe, within the law also, but when you force someone the majority nor minority does not win. If the majority does not respect the minority it reflects badly on them.

Finally I'd like to know why Yours Truly feels Public Schools should not exist?

Oops...that was me in that last one. Don't want anyone complaining about using Anonymous for me! HA!

I reluctantly agree with the ruling. But I will say to South East Side who doesn't think the majority should shove their agenda down someone's throat, I will not accept the government schools shoving their agenda down mine or more importantly, the throats of my children. I find it facinating that when All Saints Academy opened several years ago, it took a month or so to fill EVERY available seat of the six hundred student school. A several hundred student waiting list ensued in this, the land of World Class Education, Government School Dist. 203. These All Saints people pay EXCESSIVE taxes to fund lavish, wasteful government education AND tuition and additional costs to attend All Saints. I envy them. That is the kind of dedication of purpose no Judge or special interest shall be able to overcome. It would appear little buddy that there are a whole lot of people living around you who think school prayer and religion classes among other things is in fact a good idea. It started long ago in the cities and spreads to this day. The lack of a moral compass in the schools by administrators, teachers, parents and ultimately students crushes the schools from within. Naperville public schools have police officers in them full time. The private and religious schools do not. I wonder why? Chicago high schools: Basket ball games start at 4:00pm, not at night. No visiting teams fans are allowed to watch the game. Why? Too much violence and general thuggery. Beautiful! Thus more government schools become schools of last resort. Finally, the reason for my screen name. A good number of years ago there was an issue about how politically incorrect it was for students at NCHS to call themselves Redskins. A school board member, infront of a board meeting moved to a cafeteria at the school to accomodate the crowd actually said what you suggest, sometimes the majority is wrong and proceeded to vote with the very small minority (Carolyn the Public's Conscience and a few of her friends)to change the name of the school mascot. The problem is many of us who are Redskin's will always be Redskin's. We worked on Smoke Signals, not Central Times! We are the Skins! Sometimes even the majority must stand up for their rights against the tyrannical minority. So go ahead and pray in public schools. There is plenty of time often during the school day when it can be done and its a good thing to do it.

Well Redskins you are right on the line of getting an Excuse me from me! HA!

Ok, lets take this step by step!

I feel, we'll see what others think. You have to be very careful to lump all private religious schools & all public schools together. They are all different! Some Public schools are much more advance than private religious schools. I can say for mine, my Catholic grammar school we did not have algebra, computers, foreign language & did not dissect anything in science. My siblings who transfered to public did. I was at a big disadvantage when I went to HS and yes I did choose to go to the public HS then. The 4 older boys who lived next door to me went to Catholic HS & felt they were so behind when they went to college.

Next, would be school/class size. When I went to grammar school maybe 25 in a classroom so control is not as much of an issue but I'll tell you I don't think students have gotten better in some 30 yrs and we got into quite a bit of trouble in Catholic grammar school. We were not Angels by any means! Heck, one of my classmates got pregnant in 8th grade & that was then so...now we are the parents of these kids in school today so who is to blame? I'll tell you we have a religious (not Catholic & more strict on doctrine) college near mine & those students are just as bad. They head up north to watch movies & get in a great deal of trouble despite curfews for the dorms etc so I would not make sweeping generalizations here. That lack of moral compass is everywhere & quite frankly it is in part due to the parents who go to the school boards & demand that there student does not get in trouble. My child would never! They threaten to sue! They support principals who are unethical! I'm sorry to bring up again but many were! Not all but those who did have the compass whose needle is bent!

As for your Redskins point that is just a matter of you not being Native American and knowing what it feels like to be demeaned. If it was something of your cultural/ethnic background you may feel differently. If it was a school which was the majority Native American & they voted for it fine, but that is not the case. Why was it picked in the first place? What is the meaning behind it? You don't see a lot of school mascots being oh of Polish, German, Italian etc. If you really believe that the Redskins name for a mascot is to honor & they don't want it to be used...what is the problem...take your background & honor it with a mascot name! I'd think that was better yet! See if you tthen feel it is an honor in the way it is represented. Heck, why do we even need a mascot? So it can be made fun or stolen by students playing pranks? The cheerleaders are not enough? Don't even get me started with that...and yes I was one in grammar school!

Interesting post from the Former Clinton Labor Secretary:

The Stimulus: How to Create Jobs Without Them All Going to Skilled Professionals and White Male Construction Workers

http://robertreich.blogspot.com/2009/01/stimulus-how-to-create-jobs-without.html

OHVU, it's interesting that you think those who went to Catholic school were so far behind, since Lisle's own Benet Academy has an average ACT score of around 31 if I recall correctly. I would venture to guess it's not a question of public or private but how well funded it is. A poorly funded parochial school won't provide a great education, just like a poorly funded public school won't. And the opposite is also true.

Whoa...NPE! I did not say all! I am making the point you are that you should say that all are great & better than Public! Be careful!

NPE...do you see me saying "ALL different" and "Some"

Yeah, I know, OWVY, I just wanted to point out the other side as well. I am curious whether Benet makes its students better or if it only accepts exceptional student. It's an interesting chicken and egg question, although rather off the original subject.

Other side? I thought Redskin gave one side & then I reponded with the other?! He said that private was better & I said not necessarily due to many reasons. Yes, I said there were many reasons, funding can be one but it supports what I said that not all Private Religious schools are better than Public.

Good God...have you seen this?

With that one line, the president "seems to be trying to redefine American culture, which is distinctively Christian," said’ Bishop E.W. Jackson of the Exodus Faith Ministries in Chesapeake, Va. "The overwhelming majority of Americans identify as Christians, and what disturbs me is that he seems to be trying to redefine who we are.’"

Not so, Jackson says: "Obviously, Jewish heritage is very much a part of Christianity; the Jewish Bible is part of our Bible. But Hindu, Muslim, and nonbelievers? I don't think so. We are not a Muslim nation or a nonbelieving nation."’

http://news.aol.com/article/obamas-nonbeliever-nod-unsettles-some/316339

See this is the problem. Comments like this one believes that then you can't come in this country & be a citizen if you are a non-believer or something other than Christian! What happen to the land of the Free to believe what you want. Once you go down the road of saying you have to believe this it gets very scary!

They even at the end said that Abortion somehow is just Black Genocide. Not saying if I support Abortion or not but I could swear it was not just African American's that were getting abortions?! But you know how much I'm always wrong!

It is unfortunate that these type of stories dominate public education. Never mind stupid lazy parents are turning their kids into lazy liberal welfare recipients. Take a look at many high schools, outside of naperville, and you will understand how bad it has become.

Although I am not religious, if given the option I would prefer my children to go to catholic schools. Catholic educated students score higher on college entrance exams and in my opinion have better work ethic.

It is sad that math, science, and english have taken a back seat to gym, sex ed, home ec, drivers ed, multi cultural studies and these other crap classes. At religious schools at least you know the kids will receive 4 full years of the core studies.

Don't get me started MRC! I'll totally disregard your first 2 statements as I find it just a ignorant generalization.

I will not devalue Math, Science, Reading & Writing as they are very important, but not at the expense of other important skills. Just because I may not be able to do Calculus does not make me any less valuable in this world. Are those skills slipping in the US as oppose to other nations? Yes! But don't make the statement that other areas are not important. Core studies are not more important than music or the arts or sports. For some that is their strength & gift (yes from God!) I would not survive (sanity) without a Robin Williams, Andrea Bocelli, or anyone you want to pick! They may not be able to do math well but they are just as neccesary in this world. The reason we have many problems is because not enough of our students (AND PARENTS!) have cultural knowledge to provide respect & compassion for others on this planet.

Do I also think that we are overextending students with not only classes but all their extra curricular activities. YES! I occasionally have HS students who dual enroll in my college courses. They tell me they are in plays for example, at school late, get just 3 hours of sleep, get up study & got back to school. Many students in HS are working out of necessity for some but for others luxury...have to have that cool car with insurance or clothes etc. In college they are also trying to work full time or more & also take a full load of classes or more! It is very rare someone can do this without burning out. The fact that the expectation is there in the first place that this even can be realistically done is amazing to me. And we wonder why they are stressed and acting inappropriately in society, especially when we do not teach them healthy methods to cope with stress. I find it amazing you would find gym something that should not be emphasized when it is being cut & we have the highest incidence of childhood diabetes & obesity right now. Sex Ed...we discussed this previously, I mentioned how student just do not know what they should about sexuality, when one can get pregnant, when the heart starts to beat etc. Drivers Ed...we need more of if you look at ages 16-19 yr old drivers records. It is very easy to make sweeping generalizations but in reality it is not as simple as everyone knowing how to do math, science, read & write! The world is much more complex today!

Again, not all Catholic schools do & not all public schools do poorly on entrance exams. Perhaps this is the case in Naperville, I don't know but do not generalize to all areas.

Naperville Sun Editors,

I agree in part with what your statement about prayer time not being part of a public school's mission. I "get" what the public prayer advocates are trying to accomplish. At the same time I am not convinced that a moment of prayer does anything to cement beliefs in those who believes nor an I convinced that it helps change the minds who are non-believers. In a similar manner forcing children to say the pledge of allegiance every day before class also does not make them patriotic or respectful of this nation or it's symbols... such as the flag. These concepts develop internally in each person and sometimes how they develop are not a direct result of the influence of parents, family, school, or church.

I don't have any hard facts that describe how many children of agnostics or atheists eventually find religion in their own life... statistically I'm sure there at least must be some who do. At the same time we all know that children who are raised in families with strong religious values sometimes loose their own faith, sometimes convert to another religion, and yes, there are even some who continue to follow the faith they inherited from their family.

I do believe that religion and politics are essential elements of every culture that we can not ignore. In the blind and foolish quest to separate church and state the decision makers of the past made a wrong decision to exclude all discussion of religion and faith from public school education in a misguided approach to avoid appearing to favor one religion over another.

Instead of excluding all discussion what I am proposing would be to do the exact opposite and include a discussion of all aspects of faith. That would include discussing those who believe and those who do not believe along with all of the major forms of belief. Some may be scared, worried, or even threatened by this approach, but I am not. I firmly believe that if we want our children to retain certain concepts throughout their lifetime then our entire culture and all of its major institutions must help elevate and reinforce the importance of these concepts during the growing and development stages of our children's lives. Some might be fearful that a child might change their religious belief to which I remain convinced that the family unit still plays the larger role of helping force whatever belief there is and like politics... simply exposing a child to another belief system is about as likely to result in a conversion of faith as exposing someone to another political party will result in a change of political affiliation. And even if some conversions of faith did occur and we know some will occur later in life anyway... what is better in the end... children who fall totally away from believing in anything... look at the what the growing lack of a moral compass is doing to this country... or that they find something they are happy and secure to follow for their entire life?

I firmly believe that far more will be gained in the long run by educating all of our children about all faiths than to continue on the same course of sticking our heads in the sand and pretending different faiths simply do not exist. Under the general subject of philosophy there is much for all children to learn about the greatest minds and thinkers of the ages. Yes, they will learn about their own religion, if they already follow a religion, but they will also open their minds to what their friends and neighbors and classmates believe or don't believe as well. At the same time they will learn a lot about morals and ethics and how many of our current legal systems evolved from religion. They will also learn a lot about leadership and the traits of those people who have at various times provided spiritual leadership to the great religions of the world. Spiritual leaders should have the same place in history as military, political, business leaders and others who made significant contributions to the advancement and development of mankind.

We hear a lot these days about the concepts of diversity and tolerance. For the last 20-30 years we have heard a lot about "race relations". We all have to face the fact that the face of our nation has changed dramatically and it isn't going to go back to the way it used to be. Much of what we hear and learn about diversity and tolerance is in fact hollow rhetoric because the vast majority of us do not know anything about the religion, the politics, the history, or the culture of many of our newest citizens. In fact it is even scary to read the studies of how much our fellow citizens don't know about our own culture.

We can watch in disbelief as genocide and other forms of cultural conflict and hatred spill out in violence in other parts of the world. Or we can start to realize that the same thing is going to start happening in our own country if we don't start doing something positively in the form of education... be it public or private. We have growing populations of Jews and Palestinians and Arabs in this country. Just because they live here doesn't necessarily mean they like each other any better and, in fact, there is a lot of money flowing from the USA to the old homeland to help finance age old conflicts. One of these days these same types of age old religious and cultural conflicts are going to play out in bloodshed on the streets of America if we don't start taking a different approach to what we teach the future citizens of this nation.

We can not afford to continue to ignore the discussion of religion and belief systems in public education if we truly have a social goal of a multi-racial, multi-national, multi-cultural population living in peace and tolerance with each other.

MRC -

That statement, while true in some communities, is not true when taken on a State or even National level. I worked in Admissions for a large private university and we saw that, in total, the top HS's in the country were publicly funded magnet schools....

If you look up the test scores in IL, you will see that most of the top schools are public magnet schools. In fact, many of the top ten are in the CPS.

As the Editor stated, the real measure is funding combined with selective admissions. When a school is both highly funded and is able to selectively admit only exceptional students, the test scores rise dramatically.

Now, an interesting note, once you get beyond 2 years of University, the variances in grades and competencies based on HS virtually disappear. In fact, most researches cannot even find a smidgen of a trend at that point linking secondary education to success within the University. No one knows why...it just is....

MRC: You hit the nail on the head as to what is really important in public education. It isn't to pray or what not to pray. Not only is the school year insufficient at 180 days, it is further erroded by nonsense that allows important education such as the reading, writing, math and science to compete for time with the likes of multi cultural studies and worse, the high school sports establishment that of course is driven by parents seeking scholarships for children. My wife was a member of the Natl Honor Society at NCHS, graduated from Benedictine in 93 Magna Cum Laude, 21 years after leaving Central but almost did not graduate from NCHS because she flunked gym in her Senior year. (did not like gym, not athletically inclined and no effort small or large by Ms. Martin could change that) Amazing that a gym class can hold someone down but well, gym is you know required in the public schools and no matter how inane a public policy is, it is still a public policy isn' it? And you are right, where schools fail there is no choice. This always reminds me of the little kid run over by the truck at 5th and Washington. He lived in the city but took the train out every day to attend Washington Jr. H.S. because his city public school was crap as the clear majority of them are in you pick the city. Funny how there is never any cry for change in government education. Its always the same garbage; we need more money for schools. I bet we could do with less money for schools if we had change we could believe in as to how government education should be administered. By the way MRC, the wife thought the education experience at Benedictine was excellent (now shes a CPA) and the daughter thought the same at NCC. No TA's, low student to teacher ratio and as you would imagine, with a lot of PHD's at NCC teaching the classes, the level of education service delievered is higher than the state university I passed through. Living at home saved her room and board and thus tuition got the biggest bang for our buck. So our experience with private education at post K-12 level anyway is: you get what you pay for with private sector education. This is not true with public education where you pay and you get what they give you. Finally, of all the problems with failing public education in too many places, we are blogging about the PROBLEM of praying in the schools. Really, it would be funny if it were not so pathetic.

I am curious whether Benet makes its students better or if it only accepts exceptional student.

You have to take an entrance exam to get into Benet. The only students who get in that do poorly on this exam are ones with family members that are already there, but Benet will try to discourage such people as they know they will struggle there.

As to which is better, I can only speak from experience. Here is an example. I took two years of Spanish at Benet. When I went to college, I was took Spanish again, and was placed in Spanish 1 because, as our Professor told us, high school language classes do not measure up to college courses. What that 'tough' college course covered in one semester covered about the first week of what my Benet course covered. While I had a high C or low B grade at Benet, with much studying, I had an A grade in college without studying at all.

One other thing, the grading scale at Benet is also different. Under 70% is an F, and the A's are much harder to come by than in a public school. That's one of the differences between a college prep school and a public school.

Most Catholic high schools in our area have the same rigorous standards as Benet, and the students get do get a better education.

Take the time to read the book “Liberalism is a Mental Disorder” and you will understand how liberals think and why they want to destroy this great country.

I agree the selectivity has to be considered! It is soooo easy to say private or parochial schools are so much better when you are picking the "Best of the Best" in the first place. You can not compare apples to oranges!

Ken while I'm not happy with what you experienced in your college language class, it is not uncommon to find that HS courses do not measure up to college expectations. I'm on a committee now looking at that in our area & working with the HS principals & teachers. How long ago was that for you? Many students have to take entrance exams for certain subjects and find they do not qualify for college level math, reading & writing yet they got very good grades in these courses in HS. I'm not talking about the "Best of the Best" here but the avg student going to HS. Even in psychology it is amazing how many said they got an A in HS where it is 2 semesters and do avg or poorly in a college level course which is 1 semester & focuses more on research. Yes, I know of some HS psychology faculty who are EXCELLENT! The problem is then the student's logic is then the college course must be bad or wrong because I didn't do this in HS, instead of thinking that college is different & many times at a higher level. It is also quicker paced and there are so many other factors that influence success. Blemum brought the idea of after 2 yrs not much difference. Yes, if you can survive all the other influences you usually are doing well. Many drop out by then & you have those that survive. In fact, I'll get those that drop out because they could not balance living in dorms, financial matters, friends & partying, studying habits, more rigor in courses, and many other factors which influences one's success in college. It is not just cognitive ability which determines success in a course.

Also, Redskin it makes me wonder if your wife could not do enough to just pass a gym class and 20 yrs ago which is much different than what they expect today. I mean I graduated HS 26 yrs ago & when I was there it wasn't much to pass. I mean you need basic coordination to drive a car and to do many other things. There is a huge difference between being an athlete & getting an A in gym & getting an F. Avg abilities is C so....What was the National Honor Society's gpa needed then if she is failing gym? Did she almost fail just sr year or is she getting Ds the other 3 yrs? Also at least when I was in HS there was also an Adaptive Gym if someone did have some injury or major issue with coordination etc. Those with injuries even passed so I'm not sure how bad she would really have to be here to almost fail. Like I said makes me wonder on other activities which require hand eye coordination, speed etc. It is also hard to think back sometimes in a HS mind we had of all the other factors why we don't like gym. The other girls can be brutal...could be some other things here but hard to remember or admit. Same thing for guys...the Sr. vs the Fr. OMG! Not saying it is but I'm sure a bit as almost all do have some. It is the same thing with students coming in with attitudes they will not do well in their math class or psychology is just a lot of well you know how creative they can get! :-) Also again not saying was but a HUGE factor is when you mature. I remember 4th grade softball (this is 16 inch!) struck out every single time up to bat. The captains of the team, 8th grade girls, use to tell me to get closer to home plate to be useful to the team! I'm sure you can figure out why! But I was lucky that pubety kicked in early & by 8th grade was a captain & had the most home runs in the league. I still remember the girl who had 1 more grandslam than I did! It is the same thing with boys & they mature later. Think of "16 Candles"! Heck I had brother played basketball since 4th grade, Sr. year he gets cut...too short! Comes back after his first semester of College & the HS coach looks up & said why couldn't you have done that last year. 6'2" now. There are so many reasons and gym should be valued just as much as other courses, if anything just for basic health fitness. Like I mentioned before the numbers are just shocking on how many children/teens we have that are obese, not just overweight but qualify for obese or severe obese & Type II diabetes is also so high. These kids won't make it to even use the knowledge they learn in other courses if they don't work on this today. Noone is expecting them all to be athletes but if you can't do I don't know 10 sit ups without dying or getting out of breath then one has to wonder. Anyone know how many you have to do today in a gym class?

This is what Central has on their website now...20 yrs ago I'm sure much different:

http://www.ncusd203.org/central/NCHS_Course_Book/wellnessed.pdf

Always-Right...give me a break! First of all it is not a Mental Disorder trust me! Don't even go there or you will have to bring up all the Conservatives that actually do have a documented Mental Disorder by the DSM! Next, what is Liberalism! Everyone has a different definition of that & it has changed over the years. Someone can write a similiar opposite book on Conservatives so you just go back & forth like a tennis ball. Not helpful! One has to wonder when one believes a radio personality is an authority. Yes, he has a Masters & PHD...but degrees do not necessary mean the person is an expert by any means & many use that knowledge to do more harm in the world! And the fact that hd is for the environment and animals which is typically not a conservative but what liberals work hard for will make some not agree. And a the man obviously should take a psych class instead of more botony when he says a child with Autism is “a brat who hasn’t been told to cut the act out,”! Ya, he is someone I want to use as an expert! Give me a Break!

This debate reminds me of the situation in the late 1980's in the Naperville City Council. The City Council had for decades started their meetings with a prayer led by a local member of the clergy. Everything went fine because the local clergy knew enough to keep their prayers ecumenical asking for divine guidance for the city and its leaders, and not to seek to have those who were present adopt or follow a certain religion. Then, in about 1988 or 1989 there was a change in the message of some clergy who came before the Council. They no longer gave ecumenical invocations but gave fire and brimstone addresses. These messages were no longer proper for a public governmental forum in a City that had grown to almost 100,000. The Council had to make a choice--try to limit the invocations or just quietly discontinue the practice. Knowing who difficult it would be to try to adopt rules for the prayers, the Council discontinued the practice. It was done quietly. There was no uproar from the community.

The same is true for the schools, but even more so because of the age of the students and the control that the teachers have over them during the school day. If you are going to have a prayer, how do you guard against the practice becoming an indoctrination? Who is going to write it? How will you address the divine being? What happens if some teacher dements the idea? How do you guard against the minority students who do not participate becoming the subject of ridicule from their peers?

When it comes to prayer in a public forum, maybe the Naperville City Council had the right idea.

Here you are, Bubo!

In your Tyranny of the Minority blog, you made a statement that caught my interest. You mentioned the "anti-Christian anti-European MALE movement in society." This corresponds to an idea that I've had for ages.

Let me know if this has a thread of truth to it: is the reason white male conservatives dislike liberalism so much because you see it as being responsible for your diminished status in our society? When this country was founded, the only people who had a say in the government were white male landowners, so they made all the rules. Women and other ethnic groups had no power. So if you were an Anglo-Saxon male, especially an Anglo-Saxon male with property, the world was yours by birthright. Now that's not the case anymore. All citizens, women and minorities included, have power and influence in our society. Anglo-Saxon males now have to compete with these groups for the status and power that was once bestowed on them simply by birth. I've always suspected these feelings to be at the heart of the Skinhead and other neo-nazi movements in the U.S.

What say you?

Do we really know anything about "true" religion or do we only argue about the dogmas of organized religions? For those who seek true understanding through years of reading and research, I highly recommend my father's new book (”The Secret Life Of Jesus And Mary Magdalene” by Richard J. Lanzara). You can see the reveiw at the Barnes and Noble site ( http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-Secret-Life-Of-Jesus-And-Mary-Magdalene/Richard-J-Lanzara/e/9781607034162 ). Enjoy!

... dogmas of organized religtion... What THE heck? Are you serious or just pimping out daddy's new book?

Hey we all seem to go off on a tangent a bit now and then... but this is getting ridiculous...

How about a bit of time out here, clear our heads, and get back to what we should be talking about... whether or not we should have a moment of silence in public schools... "true" religion?... God save us all...

@Mr. 66-

What ever happened to majority rule? Why is the minority ruling the majority all the time. You bleeding heart liberals (this does include the Sun and the judge) have twisted the words and laws to suit your needs.

Some things shouldn't be left to the majority. If we left everything to the majority, we would have never done away with slavery, much less given african americans (and women for that matter) the right to vote. Proposition 8 in California is yet another example of what happens when you leave things up to the majority. Your average voter is not intelligent enough to make judgement calls when it comes to civil liberties.

Hate to say it, but it's true.

What the?: You write white male conservatives dislike liberalism because it diminishes their status in society. You wrote that on 1/26 and I just finished laughing. Let me help you understand why we and others of all genders and races dislike liberalism. We dislike it because for every dollar it gives to the "needy and disinfranchised among us", it takes one from the pockets of the people who earned that dollar. It is not about power or anything else. It is really about working hard, earning your dollar vs. for example a 30yr old single woman who gives birth to octuplets after fertility treatments and will now get $2650 from the State of California in welfare benefits for 14 kids rather than the $1650 she is getting now with her current six kids. It is really no more complicated or insidious than that. And if you think that woman is good for society and good for those children, then you will never understand the difference between liberalism and conservatism. Just forget about it.

Perfect explanation! Now, instead of a dollar taken from the pockets of 1,650 people each month, she will take one dollar from the pockets of 2,650 people per month in California! (of course the real cost of taxpayer assistance is to be determined but it will be six figures and they will stll live in proverty) And my sister Donna (a former 72' Redskin by the way) in Glendale still thinks things are better now because BHO is President! HA HA! LOL! Now I just wonder how the woman received fertility treatments costing what is estimated at $10,000? Did some liberal program provide her with that kind of medical reporductive assistance? WHAT THE ?: Still wonder why conservatism doesn't like liberalism?

Glock 22,

Please explain what this woman in California has to do with Barack Obama becoming President.

Also, a dollar from the pockets of 2650 Californians? Not that I think what's she's doing is okay, but if you're going to be deliberately misleading, why not just say she's taking $2650 a month from ONE Californian?

-JQP

OK, its not hard. What the? in his 1/26/09 post writes in his post, something he has always thought and that is white male conservatives (many of whom support a moment of silence in schools) don't like liberalism because it takes power away from them. Then he equates the argument to apply to Prop 8 in California. I'm asserting that liberalism and big huge government (of which President Obama is the current leader of the philosophy and won overwhelming voter support in California)doesn't take power away from anyone. It merely, among many other ills takes money from people who earn it and gives it to a woman who earns it by taking it as entitlements from the big liberal California government. More kids = more money. It is 1960's Great Society Welfare 101. The same liberal welfareism that destroyed the minority family that What the? is the sympathetic champion of. You know, the moms got more money based on number of kids and even more money than that if the father did not reside with her and the kids. So it wasn't the white male conservative that deserves the constirnation of What the ?. It was assuredly liberalism. Secondly, look at how she takes it as you wish. It is not misleading. Rather one could think of it as nothing more than for example mathmatical commutative properties. It matters not from one or from 2650. The answer is still $2650 that she did NOTHING to earn while others did. Get it?

"Secondly, look at how she takes it as you wish. It is not misleading. Rather one could think of it as nothing more than for example mathmatical commutative properties. It matters not from one or from 2650. The answer is still $2650 that she did NOTHING to earn while others did. Get it?"

I know what your point was, but I got it in spite of your math, not because of it.

Glock 22:

My word, I leave for a week and look what happens!

I did not equate my comment about white male liberalism to Prop. 8; I did not mention Prop. 8 or even suggest it. YOU equated it to Prop. 8. And what the hell does the octuplets in California have to do with my question either? Really, these kind of diversions are precisely the problem with the conservative mindset. Read my post again, and this time FOCUS ON THE WORDS. Nothing about Prop. 8, octuplets, welfare, or anything else you're raving about, either directly or subliminally.

And for the record, CNN asserts the octuplet mom paid for the in vitro herself, from some cash award she got from something in her past. This woman may have a lot of loose screws, but she holds a bachelor's degree and was working on a master's, and up until the birth of the octuplets was a working mom. She didn't have 14 kids for welfare money, she's a loon who collects children the way some people collect stray cats. Sure, chances are that unless she can cut a book or interview deal for a lot of $$, the state of CA will probably end up supporting all 14 of those kids. But this is not a conservative or liberal issue. This case involves many things, most notably whether to impose controls on in vitro procedures, psych screening for in vitro candidates, allowing people the reproductive freedom to produce more children than they can support (and if you conservatives don't like government in your face, how would you like government dictating reproduction to you), etc and so forth. But it has nothing to do with being a liberal or conservative. In fact, that the mother did not want the remaining eight embryos destroyed and refused selective reduction when all eight implanted suggests she holds conservative values supporting right to life under any circumstances. LOL yourself!!!