At Tuesday's City Council meeting, Councilman Bob Fieseler raised the idea of installing surveillance cameras on Chicago Avenue in downtown Naperville.
The idea was spurred by recent incidents downtown, including one where an NCC student was Tasered, with conflicting accounts as to whether it was justified. Fieseler said the cameras could save the city time and money by allowing them to determine definitively what happened instead of conducting investigations.
Police Chief Dial supports the measure and says he thinks Naperville will need more cameras in the future.
Of course, cameras can be abused as well, and any suggestion of installing cameras always brings up the specter of Big Brother.
Do you think these cameras are a good idea, or would they be an intrusion into privacy?
I come from the UK which is now blanketed with surveillance cameras. You are captured hundreds of times per day.
Many cameras are programmed to recognize car license plates (it's called Automatic Number Plate Recognition - ANPR). Every time you drive past one it logs it in a central database.
Closed Circuit TV was introduced for 'public safety'. But it's mostly now used to monitor for traffic "offenses". Pull over somewhere you shouldn't to read a map and get a ticket in the mail a few weeks later.
Bear in mind the above didn't happen overnight, but gradually with the excuse of 'public safety'.
No doubt the punishment freaks on this blog will be all in favor. Why not have cameras in peoples' houses too so the cops can see what's going on? That would increase public safety.
David Dial is in favor of this. He's a cop. He sees everybody as a criminal and the city as a nicely laid out big open-air prison.
The reason we have a constitution, albeit it has been chipped away in some areas and shredded in others, for the convenience of the government and its agents, is to prevent the USA turning into the sort of closely monitored police state the UK has become.
As long as the tax imposed by the special downtown taxing district can cover the cost to purchase, install, operate, and maintain the camera's I'm all for them. The downtown businesses attract these problems, create these problems by pouring too much booze down peoples throats. Let the downtown businesses support the cost if the camera's are needed.
Let's face it there really are just a "few" downtown night spots that are the source of most of the problems. Neither the city council nor the police department obviously have enough backbone to do anything about the drunks these places fill up and turn loose. If they did these places would have been shut down a long time ago and their liquor license revoked.
Rather the city likes their seedy little racket of placing all of the blame on the customers. If they get in a fight they get arrested. If they get behind the wheel of a car they get arrested. And the police department cash register just keeps ringing. The business owner and bar tenders are not responsible for anything.
Who is greasing who's palm with this arrangement? Who thought all of the dirty part of politics was restricted to just Chicago?
I would like to see a comprehensive camera system in the downtown owned and operated by the Downtown Business Alliance.
Kind of like a mall owner watching their property. Cameras mounted on either private property or lease spaces on lamp posts are fine with me.
If there is a crime, the mall owners can call the police and provide the evidence.
I do not want the police watching anyone on cameras as their job. Setting aside Orwellian concerns, the desire to raise more revenue for the City through fines or to simply automate enforcement of trivial offenses will in the end prove irresistible.
I would support the Library having outward facing cameras to provide security for their customers and the same goes for the other public buildings in the downtown.
The police HQ and other public buildings are also, IMHO, entitled to the same level of security as privately owned structures and should be able to tape what is going on around their properties.
As Anonymous @ February 18, 2009 9:52 PM posted, the way to solve this problem is by giving the 2-4 NPD bike cops on each street corner a new assignment. Instead of official Naperville skirt inspectors, how about actually policing the common sense ordinances preventing over-serving in bars? I know it would put a major kink in the DUI money making machine, but all of the cited problems in downtown Naperville can be linked back to one thing: alcohol.
Where are people getting alcohol from? When was the last time you saw someone walking around with a six pack in downtown Naperville? They're getting stumble and pick-a-fight drunk by being over-served in Naperville bars. Does it seriously take a rocket scientist to see how to solve this problem?
Hold bars accountable for the alcohol they freely dispense, suspend some liquor licenses, and things will change overnight. The city has spent the last 11 years looking the other way on downtown Naperville bars. How many more people need to die to drunk drivers, how many more people need to get in senseless fights, and how many more people need to get tasered by NPD officers before the city hires some overpaid consultant that suggests that maybe if people didn't have so much to drink all these problems would disappear?
According to the best information I can find on Google, the last time a liquor license was suspended for over-serving in Naperville was Bar Louie in 1998. I absolutely LOVE the selective law enforcement in this city where ordinances exist only as a suggestion if there's a source for tax money to be made. If they suspend a bar's liquor license for a few days, think of all the lost tax dollars! On the other hand, they can make tax money on every drink served, then write $1000+ DUI tickets all night limited only by how quickly the NPD can pull over people leaving downtown Naperville.
I swear, the way the city operates the downtown area at night is just like the crooked judge and his crazy family from the Chevy Chase and Dan Aykroyd movie, Nothing But Trouble.
The only way I will support installing these cameras is if it means the instant termination of the dozen cops who roam around downtown Naperville. One person sitting in front of a array of monitors can now do their job, how's that for tax savings? Of course, Dial and the good ol' boys would never dare do such a thing...
Well how far will we be from Demolitian Man & tickets coming out of the walls for offenses. :-)
Actually, I don't think it is a totally bad idea. I think they seriously should consider how they will use them & who will pay for them. I do agree this seems odd to not hold the bars accountable and then just give tickets...although ultimately it is the individual accountable for their own behavior. With the new DUI laws & people having to get devices to blow to start their cars I wonder what effect it will have on drinking in general. But maybe the cameras will help not having individuals get away with their behavior so much. Some schools have them & mom & dad can watch their child on the internet. Actually, I might be in favor of my class...7 people walking in & out today to answer their phones/text that vibrated! UGH!!!
I don't care who pays for the cameras as long as we can save the salaries of the dozen cops who patrol downtown. A dozen cameras could be installed for what we pay a dozen cops in 2 or 3 days. It is a great investment that will have great returns.
I think downtown bars are not monitored by the NPD since many are connected to City Hall. Many had the pictures of politicians in their windows supporting them in the last local election.
If they were ever given the microscope treatment Extra Value Liquors was once given in the past, they would all have had their licenses revoked by now. I guess the owner of Extra Value Liquors was anti-establishment from what I recall....no wonder the politicians were so tough on him.
If you are pro-establishment, you can get your patrons drunk and knowingly attempt to let them drive home intoxicated. I guess the city will settle for DUI fines from the patrons instead of holding the servers, pourers and owners liable. The politicians need signs in the windows of these establishments during election time and thus these bars are immune from any penalty for intoxicating their customers. That is how the system works....try to change it! Good luck.
I am not speaking in favor of the issue, however, the cameras would have already paid for themselves if they had been in place on January 1, 2006 during the Furstenau incident. I know that there are currently cameras at the train station, the parking deck elevators, and the municipal center and as far as I can tell, those tapes are only reviewed in response to a reported offense. So would big brother be watching? I doubt it and with all the cut backs everyone is looking for, NPD won't have someone to do that anytime in the near future.
If only people did not have the choice whether or not to consume alcohol and subsequently drive... but that's another story altogether.
The video tape doesn't lie. There should be no expectation of privacy in a public downtown area. Many expensive lawsuits (past and present) would have been settled immediately had cameras been in place so we do not have to rely upon 'he said' 'she said' "evidence".
I agree with the sentiments already posted on this blog. Sadly, the Naperville Police Department is doing it's community a grave disservice by allowing the downtown bars to continue their practice of serving without conscience and then hoping to catch the patron and slam them with a DUI. Of course the patron is wrong to get behind the wheel, but why not do the right thing and go after the establishment who served the patron without limits? You and I cannot expect the police to nab every single inebriated individual before they potentially pose a threat to innocent citizens and/or property. Why does it always come down to the almighty dollar? Why can't the police adhere to their oath 'to serve and protect'? Do we need to ammend it to say 'to serve and protect unless there is an opportunity to make money off of the situation' or 'to serve and protect unless the good old boys would get in trouble'? Seriously, I am thoroughly disgusted at the lack of integrity and conscience of all of those involved. They all deserve to lose their jobs. They have already lost their sense of duty.
And with regard to the cameras... do you really think it would make a difference if those who look the other way now would be the ones monitoring the cameras? I will bet you anything tapes would have 'technical difficulty' if a good old boy were involved. Plus, the police would be off the streets sitting in a comfy chair not doing the right thing instead of being on the beat not doing the right thing. I say let's pressure them to step up and get it right for a change.
There is no expectancy for privacy in a public place. Surveillance cameras are an effective and efficient means for monitoring the well being of the most sensitive areas of the business district, and will serve to increase the security of law abiding citizens. Throughout Chicago, you will find such cameras in areas where illegal and/or disruptive behavior is prevalent. Raising concerns about privacy issues inherent in this proposal is a red herring.
No more cameras !!! Too many already with the Red Light Cameras. When does Big Brother Stop???
What are the police doing??? Isn't this what they get paid for ??? Maybe I am missing something. Where has our privacy gone and civil rights gone ? Enough of living in a police state or should I say computer state seeing as Dial and his SS would rather watch a TV monitor rather than to do their real job in person.
Also, what about the deficit Naperville has ?? Just what we need---- spending money don't have. And if the cost is shifted to the restaurants, prices will go up and people will go somewhere else.
Enough said !
I suppose if one wants Naperville to become like the Old Soviet Union Police State, They would love cameras everywhere.
But then again, Mr. Bush disregarded the Constitution, and our Bill of Rights, so Mr. Dial is just another Bush in police clothing.
However, the drunks are not the only people these cameras will "catch." You may THINK you are a law-abiding citizen but there are many "laws" to think about.
You may not be drunk and walking around downtown Naperville, but these cameras will "catch" you breaking many other laws, including
1. Actually smoking WITHING 15 feet of any doorway of any business (try not to if you are a smoker).
2. If you are not a smoker, your kid MAY be, without your knowledge. Perhaps you will have a ticket show up in your mail of them being identified as such. Even if they are JUST experimenting. That once.
3. You or your kid littering in public by throwing a cigarette butt on the ground.
4. You throwing your ice cream container/Starbuck/Jamba Juice cup on the ground.
5. You JAYWALKING in the middle of Washington Ave. from Barnes & Noble to the Mongolian BBQ or vice versa (how many times have I almost run over these people?)
6. You walking crossing against a DONT WALK streetlight when with your baby stroller in front of you like it's an unstoppable force (again, I've almost run over you when you break this law)
7. You driving in a car AND NOT YIELDING to the pedestrians when they DO have the right of way. I see this daily as well.
8. You parking in the handicap lane when you "run in" to a business to pick up (quickly!) your food, or take out?
9. Your kids running amuck, jaywalking, skateboarding, smoking, hanging out not really BOTHERING anyone, until someone decides they are REALLY being bothered.
10. You running one of those pesky "NO LEFT TURN" arrows that occur during morning/evening rush hour.
How to identify these people? The police can scrutinize the video, or maybe put it up on public access for all to identify.
Especially considering what our UK friend here said, it all starts out innocent, looking for drunks and all, but remember, you MAY THINK you are following the rules, but a lot of times, you are really not.
to: anonymous on February 20, 2009 12:30 AM
For offenses 1-10... GOOD! Nail em.
Won't happen but I wish it would.
OK, maybe I don't suffer from the same sense of paranoia because I have never been arrested and for that matter have never even received a traffic ticket in my life. I don't know all the laws or ordinances but pretty much try to always do the right thing and have taught my kids to do the same. So we have not had a lot of police contact.
I hear all the UK police state red flags and feel that the other side of that coin is they have some real societal issues that have not been presented here. I have a British friend who, every time he returns home, is appalled at the economic and social decline as well as the incredible increase in violent crime in larger cities.
I still don't see that the cameras would be used any differently that the ones already in place. The police are not writing jaywalking, littering and traffic tickets at the train station. I recall that they used the municipal center cameras to try to catch vandals who defamed the Shanower monument. And I'm pretty sure if you were nailed by a hit and run driver while crossing the street, they would go straight for the tapes, but the rest of this conjecture is not based in any current reality. This chief would have liked the tapes to either exonerate or convict his officers vs. the offenders in both the costly Furstenau and the NCC student taser cases.
I agree also! If they do those things they should get a ticket!
I second that motion, Original Joe.
There is nothing wrong with expecting citizens to obey the laws and enforcing them when they don't.
When will it stop? Wasn't a camera placed by law enforcement, trained on the house where the housewife disappeared. How would your kids like that.Very few complained about that?Did the student who was tazered file a complaint with IAD? anyone know?
Mark B. wrote:
"But then again, Mr. Bush disregarded the Constitution, and our Bill of Rights, so Mr. Dial is just another Bush in police clothing."
Really, Mark? It has been ruled time after time in courts that one has no expectation of privacy when they are in public, and not just by judges President Bush appointed. By the way, what rights did you or anyone you know lose under the previous administration?
While I am against the camera, and the police state that liberal judges have allowed to slowly creep in (been through a police road block lately?), it is going to happen unless enough people protest it. Don't see that happening in Naperville.
Original Joe,
LOL, I agree. I was opposed to the idea of using cameras for purposes like that, but I think I may have changed my mind after reading Anonymous' post.
-JQP
2009 = 1984 DELAYED?
By anonymous on February 20, 2009 12:30 AM
How to identify these people? The police can scrutinize the video, or maybe put it up on public access for all to identify.
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Dear Anonymous,
Two points: Car Plate Scanning and Facial Scanning
As Mr. Clarke points out, the governments already have software that reads and process in real-time 20,000 license plates per-hour per-device (go back a few issues in Popular Mechanics for article on deployed systems operating in the USA) comparing them to insurance, outstanding warrants and past history.
In China today, on-line history includes protesting against the government. So, the Chinese police can pull you over for any reason or no reason at all. Today they have access to all of the history the State has on Chinese citizens and visiting foreigners. This is a lot of on-line history. Google can also be queried real-time in case the State data bases missed something. In China it’s 1984 today.
With the new US Federal owned and operated Medical History Data Base, buried in the “Stimulus Package”, the police may soon have access to your medical records too. Just to make sure your diabetes isn't the cause of your erratic driving. Or, maybe to ensure that you aren't diagnosed with a psychological condition like schizophrenia which may make you a threat to other people. It will sound innocent in the beginning. The Police calling for the ambulance instead of the paddy wagon etc..... The police (the business end of the State) will understandably always want more info on the person they are dealing with for a treat assessment. This is an irresistible force.
FEDERAL ON-LINE DATA BASES:
• IRS, State and Local Tax Records, today
• Medical records, on the way (“Stimulus Bill”)
• Nationalized banks, on the way
• FOID and gun purchase records, on-line today
• Access to any letter to the editor you ever wrote, on-line today via Google
• Past tickets, police contact and criminal history, on-line today
• Airline and other travel via reservations systems, on-line today
• Passport activity, country entry and exit, on-line today
• Digital image of your face, on-line today
• Your entire credit/purchase history, on-line today
• Your entire phone call history, on-line today
• The last few years of your e-mails and surfing activity, in data bases kept by your ISP
• Your toll both activity, on-line today etc, etc, etc………..
FACIAL SCANNING
This is a very promising technology that went silent a few years ago. Why? Because it works, not perfectly, but it works.
Better quality digital source photos provided by DMVs, international points of entry and Passports will enhance the quality, speed and reliability of the systems. This is deployed today in the US and other countries, the camera’s you pass at international entry points are the collection devices. The camera can be in one place the computer doing the work can be anywhere on planet earth. Don’t bother looking behind the counter at Customs, the computer isn’t there.
BIOMETRICS
Translation, collecting your physical identity like face and fingerprints.
One day, DNA scanning into the new Federal Medial Data Base at birth in addition to the foot print will become mandatory. Again, this will sound innocent enough like checking your DNA for future diseases that may be prevented if caught early. Since the Federal Government is Nationalizing the Health Care System, the best way to prevent diseases and hold down costs is to detect them early, what could be earlier than at or before birth?
The ultimate cost savings would be coerced abortions for children that have DNA markers for genetic defects, susceptibility to diseases or prone to criminality. The list of defective markers already exists. Multiple DNA studies have already been conducted on prison populations. Coerced? The Federal Medical Plan may only cover abortions for defective babies, no delivery or lifetime insurance coverage for defective babies? Think of the savings that could be used for other Social Engineering Programs or paying University Professors even more.
China, Nancy Pelosi's poster child for an efficient state, has coerced abortions today. Maybe the Feds can sign a treaty that includes coerced abortions to make the US more "competitive" and like other countries.
If you want to be “selfish” and “burden society” with a defective child you will have to pay all of the costs out of your own pocket? Of course, the government is already taking 50% of what was in your pocket in the first place and it only gets bigger, never smaller. For proper behaviors, the Govt will give some of your money back to you, like dog bones.
Once your DNA is in the Federal Medical Data Base, it is never coming out. Look at all of the data base break-ins that are occurring almost daily, your DNA and Medical records will eventually be linked to other Federal data bases, sold or stolen. DNA scanning is getting faster and cheaper all the time, at some point this will be both cheap and fast. Just one hair is all you need.
USA Today ran an article this week on the thousands of break-ins into Federal Computer networks that occurred last year, many successful.
Instant-repeated DNA scanning will become routing in your life time.
No need to carry a passport, credit card or other ID, you are the ID.
ROBOTICS
The military has several thousand robots on order today for deliver in the next two to three years that can operate autonomously. All vendors independently insisted that the machines have no autonomous weapons mode or they would refuse to develop, service or supply them. Read Popular Mechanics or watch Future Weapons, the robots already exist.
Robots indistinguishable from humans will be a reality in the next 20 to 30 years. Again, check the public access stuff.
Maybe one day the Police will be automated, my naming suggestions would be: T 1000, T 2000 etc…. The technology is in the pipeline.
Politicians could pass a bill and reprogram the automated-enforcement-end the same day, that's efficiency.
Times change. So does technology, laws, culture, and attitudes.
Just because the police used to enforce laws or investigate crimes with less sophisticated tools when technology wasn't available doesn't mean that technology shouldn't be used effectively and cost efficiently now or in the future. Good, decent, law-abiding people have nothing to fear from any of this. Those who choose to ignore the laws of our society do have something to fear and it is as simple as that.
If just the fear of being caught eliminates or at least reduces crime how is that a bad thing?
I always wonder what all the Orwellian theorists who scream "Big Brother" at the first chance would have to say about DNA and other advances in forensic science if someone they loved was the victim of a violent crime?
Before we commit to allowing this, consider whether it will accomplish anything. Remember the vandalism at the 9/11 memorial. After earlier incidents, cameras were installed. Then, more vandalism and the police "didn't have the manpower or time" to review the tapes!! After much public outcry, including veterans volunteering to review the tapes, the police somehow found the time and then the incident was magically "adjudicated" at the police station. No one was charged.
In the rest of the country, the police arrest. Adjudication is handled by the courts. It seems clear that in this case, the police simply didn't want to embarrass the perpetrator. When the "no time" argument failed, they simply chose not to arrest the responsible parties.
This city maintains a double standard and our tax follars should not be used to further it.
By Mark F on February 20, 2009 5:35 AM
I hear all the UK police state red flags and feel that the other side of that coin is they have some real societal issues that have not been presented here. I have a British friend who, every time he returns home, is appalled at the economic and social decline as well as the incredible increase in violent crime in larger cities.
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Mark,
The entire UK is run like the re-education therapy part of the Clockwork Orange movie. In the end, bad people really are bad and the brainwashing fails.
The UK has every PC law you can imagine including the leading edge hate thought, hate speech, surveillance society and gun roundups. UK citizens are essentially sheep waiting for the slaughter, no wait the Govt will protect them if they just give up all their rights.
Singapore has low crime and little of the social ills of the UK. Maybe flogging and hanging really do work.
My recollection is the town in the US that required the head of every household to own and know how to use a gun has either zero or near zero crime.
The question at hand is the power of the state vs. the rights of the individual. So far the State is winning.
Behave properly and the government may throw you a few bones.
They should have put one of these outside the napergate man liquor store to catch him selling booze to teens.
Me thinks Chief Dial ought to get his head out of the sand. Does he not see what is going on in this country. All we have heard for the past year is cut, cut.... Now he wants to spend spend spend....Not now!!! let's get our priorities in line first.
What is it about cops and them wanting to get out of doing their job by installing cameras all over the place? First, they use it for red light enforcement and now they want to watch us walk the streets so if somebody gets tasered, we will know if it is justified. Typical government, it takes one extreme case and uses it to justify horrible public policy. How many people have the cops tasered in downtown Naperville? ONE?! All this will do is allow them to play skirt inspector from a cozy office while downing a couple donuts.
AUTOMATED ENFORCEMENT IS HERE TO STAY
SOURCE: SUN TIMES
February 19, 2009
BY FRAN SPIELMAN City Hall Reporter
Camera on every corner in Chicago Daley pledges
Mayor Daley has argued that security and terrorism won’t be an issue if his Olympic dreams come true because, by 2016, there will be a surveillance camera on every street corner in Chicago.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/1440402,mayor-daley-emergency-surveillance-cameras.article
SOURCE: FOX NEWS SCIENCE
Experts Warn of 'Terminator'-Style Military-Robot Rebellion
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,496309,00.html
Autonomous military robots that will fight future wars must be programmed to live by a strict warrior code, or the world risks untold atrocities at their steely hands.
The stark warning — which includes discussion of a "Terminator"-style scenario in which robots turn on their human masters — is part of a hefty report funded by and prepared for the U.S. Navy's high-tech and secretive Office of Naval Research.
Mom,
There may be a hidden agenda here.
A highly-effective, highly-regarded police Sergeant (Keeting) is being terminated from his employment by the NPD.
The reason he is being terminated is because he ran over two people in the crosswalk that were walking against the lights. My understanding from the articles is that he was responding to a police call, what kind I don't know. This happened on Aurora Ave & S. Main St next to Walgreens in the Downtown.
The City may feel that they are forced to terminate him in order to avoid law suits against the City. If the pedestrians were J walking, the City should offer them medical bills or nothing and fight it.
If my facts are correct, and the people who were run over were at fault, they should settle this for medical bills and time lost, and make a good faith effort to save this man's job.
Since we do not have a big brother camera system in place, the City may feel that they can't win the law suite, "he said she said".
The net result is that the Citizens of Naperville are losing a great police officer that is definitely the one you would want arriving in an emergency to protect your family or property.
If anyone has contacts in LE, or other suitable work, I hope that they will extend a helping hand to this man and his family.
I like the idea of a privately owned and operated camera and recording system installed in the Downtown and operated by the Downtown Alliance. Digital recordings can be reviewed when a crime or event occurs. I don't want the PD watching me use the crosswalks real time. It's creepy and a waste of police officers.
This accident, Furstenau Lawsuit and the Taser incident would all go away in a matter of days or hours without a Big Brother system.
Criminals that grab $3,000 dollar coffee makers off of a store shelf and hop into a getaway car would definitely get caught and go to prison.
Creeps, low-lifes and gang-bangers that loiter in the Downtown will be under passive surveillance. Like a mall owner, the DBA can build their own data base of creeps that loiter in the downtown. Someday, the DBA should hire their own Mall Security Force for the Downtown. One plainclothes working shop lifting and one watching the cameras and calling the PD would be just like when you go to Target or any other big store inc. Walmart.
Guess: two dozen wireless HD cameras mounted on lamp posts and a PC with and antenna at the Alliance HQ could make all these go away for less than $20K.
Does anyone know what the story is with the able-bodied, healthy, young and early-middle-age homeless men that loiter at Nichols Library during the day? In Florida after some horrible crimes, the PDs cracked down and began identifying who the "homeless in the parks" were. A significant number had outstanding warrants, were fugitives, skipped parole or were registered sex offenders staying off the radar. This was in addition to the well documented substance and alcohol abuse problems associated with homelessness.
How about we put one of these camera's in Chief Dial's office and broadcast it live as a webcam?
After a week we can all decide if we really need him or not or if the camera monitoring the office is adequate for the work being done.
Keep up ideas like Plainfield Mom and goodness knows how many more places we can save money that is being totally wasted?
By Mr popopo on February 20, 2009 11:57 PM
They should have put one of these outside the napergate man liquor store to catch him selling booze to teens.
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Funny! The Napergate Man had his own cameras which is why he was found innocent of all the allegations against him by the City of Naperville. The city kept appealing to higher courts and losing because the cameras provided irrefutable evidence that he was running a sting operation to monitor his employees and not selling liquor to minors.
Let us stop spreading rumors on this blog site. The Napergate Man won a National Award for his efforts against minors in Las Vegas awarded jointly by the National Retail Liquor Association and the National Newspaper Guild about the same time the City of Naperville was leveling a dozen false allegations against him and his liquor licenses. It was nothing but a political vendetta since he decided to take on the establishment with 44 full page Napergate ads in the Naperville Sun to expose improprieties by City Officials.
Maybe if there was a camera on Chicago Ave. we could have seen clearly that Fustenau did not punch a cop. And we could have saved $895,000 and counting, by settling with a simple apology instead of letting city officials embellish their egos. If the case goes to trial it is expected to cost 2-3 million dollars. Let us hope they don't bury the cost records like they did in the Napergate Man case.
Anon, you seem to have your story wrong. Here is the true story:
Police Chief David Dial has recommended to the board that Sgt. Ken Keating be dismissed, saying the officer exhibited "poor judgment" and "unsafe careless conduct" by running a red light without honking a horn or blaring a siren.
From here:
http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2009/02/naperville-ken-keating-suspend.html
All the cameras would do is drive up the award settlement.
That may be what the Chief said, but I don't believe it. I don't believe that man has a careless cell in his body. Many bosses say many things to save their butts and avoid things, etc. They also do things for "other reasons"....because they are pissed off at someone because they do not agree with them, to save themselves from a lawsuit as has been suggested, etc. I know myself personally! You probably can tell from me posting I have no problems saying what I feel/believe. Do I expect others or everyone to agree with me? Heck no! But other people do not always like when someone challenges them. I don't mind if you disagree with me that is fine, but I will tell you I disagree & why. If you are an assertive person (God forbid a woman!) some men (and women) do not like this and will "try" to make your life hell and get rid of you so they get rid of the challenge. It says more about their egos and security in themselves. It is sad they can't just say there are going to be people who disagree with you drastically & that is ok. But if you are grounded & know in your heart what you did was correct, even if they think they have won by attempting to hurt you or get rid of you, they haven't won at all. You know you can sleep at night with integrity. You know you will survive & that God might just have another plan for you...even if you do not understand it at the time. I believe everything happens for a reason. Hard to see and believe when you are the one going through it at the time. I believe it will make you stronger. I know, I too wish there was another way. People say things like God only gives you what you can handle and I too say I wish he didn't think I was so strong. And I'm not good climbing out of open windows when he closes doors myself! HA! I just have to believe God knows what he is doing more than I do.
Also, the economic times does not help, for either side actually. They want to cut in the police department, great way to do it & have the public not mind it so much. Easy way out. If I end up working at WalMart soon myself...I can with integrity. God gave me many talents & perhaps he wants me to use a different one. God may have a different path in mind for this officer also, we'll just have to see, but I know he will get through this.
The fact that you say "true story" from something written in the newspaper really tells me a lot about you. The things that were in the newspaper before that were totally wrong...omg. I can't believe you do not understand there are so many factors in life that influence people's thinking & behavior. People say things they do not mean, they don't say things they really want to. God I know that has even been true of me and it is for so many. There is also a possibility the Chief is trusting & believing in those who investigated, and really he should be able to depend on them, but someone else may have a gripe with this officer. Who knows exactly the real details of this. Actually I know who does! God! No one should judge unless they were there for one thing & even then it can be a problem. Camera's may have actually helped that officer tremendously! And "True Story" apparently you have not even read the popular press watered down version of the research where you have many witnesses to a crime & they all describe the criminal so drastically different. So be careful what you call a "True Story"! I show a clip in my class of this. It is an experiment in a law class where the professor's purse is stolen in seconds. The students' description of the thief are all over the board. The researchers go on to explain why people do not even realize how & why they are wrong in their memory. Just like my students will SWEAR I did not announce something & then I ask them all to open up their notes and see if they can find it & sure enough good majority have it in their notes! The ones who swear I have not made the announcement do not realize or critically think of the possibility that they could have been absent, late, talking to their friend next to them, their mind just drifting to even get it in their notes, or they just do not remember putting it in their notes. I love that since then I can say then don't be so hard on me when I'm much older than them when my memory fails me a bit. Everyone is so sure of themselves about everything...just amazing! How many rapists after many years being in prison are now being release when DNA has proven them now innocent? No, we can't through out the system obviously, but we have to be careful not to be so sure it is always full proof.
I hope this officer keeps his head up high, Believes in what he KNOWS, fights for what he believes is right and remembers that his family and friends who know his heart & who love him know he did not do this in a careless way. He would not want to hurt anyone. They know he would even be hurt that the situation even had to happen at all if it was deemed an unavoidable accident. You know those things do happen. The fact that the DA did not ticket either party should say something. You'd think they would be all over it if they felt he obviously was careless and did something wrong...it does not make sense.
BTW...officers do not always have to use a siren when going to certain calls.
The facts of the Keating case, AS USUAL, have not been REPORTED or otherwise shared with the citizens of Naperville. Seems both the Naperville Police Department and the Naperville Sun have not done as good a job as they could when the first this is reported is by "Ken" who is quoting another news source.
If the Naperville Sun wants to be the GO-TO source for local news the editors of the paper need to sit down and discuss who their loyalties lie with because this isn't the first instance of relevant facts about a Naperville "issue" coming from somewhere else first. Bias in newspaper reporting can be the death knoll of a newspaper and I, for one, hope that the historic "pro establishment" bias days are over.
As to the Keating case... pedestrians DO have the RIGHT-OF-WAY under Illinois law. Emergency vehicles can proceed thru intersections and otherwise disobey traffic laws. Yes, other vehicles are expected to pull over to the right and slow down or stop or otherwise yield, but this DOES NOT give the emergency vehicle the right-of-way.
Proceeding thru an intersection without lights and siren is an inherently dangerous maneuver for the police officer, other motorists, and pedestrians and can result in serious incidents such as the one involving Keating. Unfortunately for Keating it would appear that his lack of judgement or loss of presence of mind that day is the root factor that is causing him his job.
Lack of judgement is a difficult standard for anyone to be judged by. I sure hope Chief Dial carefully considers the consequences of setting such a precedent for terminating employment based upon judgement. Let's face it, most everything anyone who is a member of the police department supervisory or command staff does is make judgement calls. What goes around, comes around. Thread carefully Chief Dial.
By Anonymous on February 22, 2009 1:05 AM
"Maybe if there was a camera on Chicago Ave. we could have seen clearly that Fustenau did not punch a cop."
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OR................if there was a camera on Chicago Ave, we could have seen Fustenau punch the cop witnessed his beligerent attitude toward the officer, thus saving the city from defending itself against his frivolous lawsuit.
What is the SOP for police officers responding to calls in Naperville?
And, what kind of call was Keeting responding to?
Since I never see NPD cars with the light and sirens going, I believe the SOP is to not use them to avoid upsetting people that believe we have no crime in Naperville.
For some calls like corner drug dealers, gang houses and crack houses, alerting them that the POPO are coming is counter productive.
We had what appear to be two obvious gang related murders last year; one involving an organized multi-person drug rip off a well known drug house. The second appears to be two 18 YO bangers who went macho, one died.
If the SOP is to avoid upsetting residents, like the silent ambulances in my mother's retirement community, then how can Keeting be wrong for following standard operating procedure?
What was the nature of the police call?
Again, if the pedestrians who were run over know they were J walking, they should settle for medical and time lost and insist that this decent highly-effective and highly-regarded officer keep his job.
NPD officers effectively risk their lives on every traffic stop and many other types of calls they respond to. We should think long and hard before we terminate one of our most effective guardians of our families and property.
If the DBA hires an 18 year old computer kid- to design, purchase and install a Downtown Surveillance with fixed view HD cameras, it will cost approx $20K turn-key if the City helps to hang the cameras and connect the power on the lamp posts.
For legal purposes, the DBA can pay a $1 a year rental fee to the City for space on the polls thus absolving the City of any responsibility.
If the City or PD does the job, it will cost between 1 and 2 million dollars and wont work like the one at City Hall that couldn't identify who's kid vandalized our city property.
Private surveillance camera system in the Downtown yes, CREEPY government big brother camera system in the Downtown NO!
To Anon February 22, 2009 11:55AM
Police departments have internal POLICIES that govern actions that officers under their employment may follow. These policies have no legal standing other than under employment law and do not, in any way, pre-empt existing laws. Even when police officers are following department policies that does not make their conduct or action free from law suits if such conduct or action results in someone being injured or worse. All these department policies basically do is say if the officer follows the policy and something happens then the city is legally responsible for the officer's conduct, not the officer him/her self.
Regardless, the pedestrians involved in this incident have variously been reported as crossing the street, crossing the street with the light, crossing the street against the light, and jay walking. At this point it probably should be clarified what actual action the pedestrians were taking.
It has also been reported that the officer was making a left hand turn. If that is the case, and as we all know, left turning traffic is one of the most dangerous maneuvers and drivers, whether police officers or not, have to yield to both pedestrians and other vehicles and may only proceed when it is safe to do so.
If it was indeed safe to proceed two pedestrians would not have been struck.
Yes, pedestrians have a right away if they are already in the intersection but we do not know the details of this accident. Were they J Walking? Were they just stepping of the curb & should have looked both ways as I do & I teach any child to still do. Too much not explained. Heck, we had a number of years ago a crossing guard who just stepped off the curb & a utility truck hit him in front the the kids. It was not a pretty scene! There was an off duty officer even stopped at the light & saw it happen. The driver of the truck was not even charged. There are so many details here not explained.
Yes, I have talked to officers & there are times you do not have to use lights &/or sirens. It just all depends on the details which have not been made public. I also agree, I'd like to see what officer has not made a decision & it was not the correct one. Heck, what human being at all has not. I still have not heard from anyone if the people who were hurt have filed a lawsuit. Anyone hear? You know even if you are beggining to drive from a red light you are suppose to look both ways & make sure everyone has stopped. Pedestrians should do that also. Too many times I've witnessed pedestrians just chatting away & the light changes & they just go. I have probably done it myself in the past a time or two. If that were the case I would never think to blame the officer. Be careful to judge before you know all the details, someone may do that to you one day & I don't think you would be too happy. I agree what goes around comes around & God will take care of this officer. He has many blessings to be grateful for in his life.
And how about all the pedestrians, just like drivers, who are on the phone talking or texting & not paying attention. Just too much not explained.
Good God, I can't wait to move out of this town.
Anonymous...
Do you think you will avoid these issues in another town? You'll have many similar issues & if you don't have some you'll just have some other issues you may not have in Naperville.
Many police officers unfortunately do not practice what they preach.
They give you tickets for not stopping at a stop sign but roll thru them all day and night with no sirens or lights on. Just observe when you are downtown or in any subdivision.
They don't use their turn signals half the time but give you a ticket if you don't use yours.
They forget to put their seat belts on just like we do but they get away with it.
They sometimes drink and drive and get professional courtesy when they are caught by their fellow officers. When was the last time a police officer nailed another police officer for a DUI and had it stick?
They consider themselves about the law and in fact are above the law because Chief David Dial tolerates this behaviour. In the Army they have military police maintaining law and order amongst the troops. Where are our enforcement police to police our police? Internal Affairs is simply for public relations propaganda. They have never fired a cop in the 178 year history of Naperville. Not even recommended one to be fired by the Board of Police and Fire Commissioners. It is so hilarious, I am surprised the Naperville Internal Affairs Dept of the NPD has not made Saturday Night Live....yet....
Ahhh I believe in the article about Sgt Keating it said the it was only the 2nd the Cheif recommended fired....so that means someone else was recommended, though I'm not sure if that one was fired.
Are their officers who may not be totally ethical? Sure...and they do know who they are, but there are unethical people in all professions. Be careful not to generalize to all.
Wouldn't it be cheaper to put a cop on each side of the street between 6 PM and 2 AM?
To By Instant Paranoia at 1:42AM
No, it would not be cheaper to put a cop on each side of the street and frankly, there was another member of the police dept. on Chicago Avenue when the Furstenau incident went down, yet he did not see, but only heard it. There was more than one officer present during the taser fiasco, but it is still he said- they said. The cameras would have resolved both incidents without costly litigation.
And to Police Preach...
I don't know where you got your information from, but your comments would not take into consideration how many officers were offered the option to resign, rather than be fired. That is pretty standard operating procedures by many employers, saving unemployment benefits as well as a resume. And since you obviously don't work there, how would you have any idea what Chief Dial tolerates? (I think that your assumptions are jumping to wild conclusions). Isn't Dial the one who recommended terminating Keating for bad judgment? Watch Keating resign, then you can add him to the list of "no one has ever been fired"!
@Police Preach but do not Practice what they Preach. on February 24, 2009 2:30 AM
The police are a good ol' boys club who protect their own. Always have been, always will be. It's not surprising really, when I was in school all the people who were majoring in criminal justice looking to become police officers were the nerds and geeks who spent their lives getting picked on. Take someone like that, give them some authority and a gun and what do you think is going to happen?
What is the value of having proof on tape though?
If we had the cameras now or back when the Furstenau incident happened, do you honestly think that any misconduct by police officers would appear on the tapes? Those tapes wouldn't mean squat if they are monitored by city or police staff who are unethical. Or even if those monitoring the tapes were on the level, do you really think they wouldn't be tampered with if they showed evidence of corruption in our town? 'Technical difficulties' or 'lost tapes' happen all the time, sadly enough.
Another Anonymous
"do you honestly think that any misconduct by police officers would appear on the tapes"
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I agree with you. I dont think any misconduct by police would appear.
But I do think we would see Furtenau behaving exactly as the pompous obnoxious bully that he is.
To Civics, That's true, too. The cameras would have paid for themself trifold if they had been up during the Furstenau incident.
On the officer...all depends. If they wanted to use against him probably. If it showed him innocent & they didn't want that I'm sure they would have said it got lost etc until they were forced to present it...if someone didn't destroy it. My understanding the camera are seen by a 3rd party & then maybes go to NPD. I would think that 3rd party would not jeopardize there business by losing it but we all know how this world works. Too many dishonest and mean people in the world! Yes...there are wonderful ones also!
The day isn't that far away when every police officer will be equipped with a video camera mounted on a helmet, another one or more mounted in the police car, and others mounted in interrogation rooms.
Police behavior will be under greater scrutiny do to the cost of litigation and the even higher cost of settlement in cases of misconduct. Pressure from any good number of external factors is what will demand that they be installed.
When the police finally get to the point where every move they make and every word they speak is being monitored we will finally have gotten to the point where police conduct once under a constant microscope will have no opportunity other than to improve. An opportunity that is long overdue.
But recognizing that may be true for some, I would also add the other side of the coin that maybe when proof is there they have not some of these lovely citizens who like to just claim police misconduct will finally be charged for falsify a claim!
What is all the talk about installing red light enforcement cameras? I see them all over the Naperville intersections. They are white,long,narrow and I never heard of talk, before they were intalled. Or are these something different? Either way, we are not as free as we may think we are. I say no to the invasion of ones privacy.