Hey guys,

Hi PPL, i would just like to make an introduce myself to everyone at blogs.suburbanchicagonews.com

Your forum is fantastic! Frequently when I visit forums, I just come across crap, but this time I was very surprised, finding a helpful forum containing brilliant information.

Thanks dudes and keep the fantastic effort up.

But what about rising U.S. auto sales? Top investment strategists at the Reuters Investment Outlook Summit this week said that's a barometer of the economy that is not getting enough attention.

"Autos were just enormous," said Barry Ritholtz, director of equity research at Fusion IQ in New York.

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On June 2, U.S. seasonally adjusted auto sales hit a rate of 11.63 million in May. A year ago the rate was 9.87 million.

At its most recent peak in 2005, U.S. light vehicle sales reached nearly 17 million units, and the average rate was 16 million in the five years to 2008.

Hello from N.C. Hope everyone is doing well... Just wanted to see what other people were thinking and talking about...

Hi, so you have heard the term '[url=http://hubpages.com/hub/how-to-mass-follow-on-twitter]mass follow[/url]', but what does this mean? This is where you follow hundreds and thousands of people on twitter, and then they will follow you back. It sounds simple doesnt it? However it is a very time consuming task. What if I told you there was a guie that went through everything step by step...Well now there is!

Can you believe this story from Denver?

I just read this and had to share it with the community.

This poor woman, just can't believe that this actually happens in this day and age, what a shame.

(CNN) -- Three police cars pulled into Christina FourHorn's front yard one afternoon just before she was supposed to pick up her daughter at school. The officers had a warrant for her arrest.

"What do you mean robbery?" FourHorn remembers asking the officers. Her only brushes with the law had been a few speeding tickets.

She was locked up in a Colorado jail. They took her clothes and other belongings and handed her an oversize black-and-white striped uniform. She protested for five days, telling jailers the arrest was a mistake. Finally, her husband borrowed enough money to bail her out.

"They wouldn't tell me the details," she said.

Later, it became clear that FourHorn was right, that Denver police had arrested the wrong woman. Police were searching for Christin Fourhorn, who lived in Oklahoma.

Their names were similar, and Christina FourHorn, a mother with no criminal record living in Sterling, Colorado, had been caught in the mix-up.

Looks like the Sun might be cutting back on frequency. http://www.chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/news.pl?id=33562

March 31, 2009: The Sun declares bankruptcy. The Whites are spinning in their graves.

To Populist Fox,

Ahhh yes.... the typical, sarcastic, cynical retort of a far left liberal in response to an opposing view.....label the opposing view to the ridiculous exreme. I think they were asking for something "radical" like "freedom of choice." Maybe they're against a professor injecting their own political views in the classroom or maybe they're against giving Ayers the school's stage & platform to spin from.

"Professor who?" simply suggested he or she have the option (as a parent) to filter not censor their teenager from someone who spent years on the FBI's mosted wanted list for bombing federal buildings and police stations.

You're obviously an Ayers sympathizer, should we label and pigeonhole you to your ridiculous extreme. Should we assume that you believe all Vietnam Vets were "baby-killers", that "freedom of speech" allows kids to wear any t-shirt they want no matter who it may offend, that if you disagree with someone's point of view it's OK to haze & harrass them or even send a suicidal bomber to their marketplace?

Obviously the naperville north's administration thinks he's poison enough to require a signed parent's permission slip and are now re-considering hosting the event.

Do you even have any idea what Bill Ayers is going talk about? Personally, I would rather get my news from anonymous sources and blogs than hearing anything first hand. I'm glad that my teachers censored my education and my parents controlled the news that I listened to, it's made me the open minded critical thinker that I am. Kind of like Putin's model for democracy.

So a naperville north's social studies teacher invited Bill Ayers to come out and speak to their students. Great....give an urban terrorist another 15 minutes of fame. Who's next? Good job Husky's staff.

I know freedom of speech and all that but here's my beef. The social studies teacher that invited him out has mandated (or should I say, strongly suggested) that all his students view his speech. As a parent, I don't want my teenager subjected to his rhetoric or propaganda. He should have a choice whether or not to see him.

What I learned watching the news last night:

1. Ron Paul, the only honest man who ran for President:

* "Today the US is bankrupt and printing money to pay the bills". One Trillion last week, one Trillion more planned for this week.

* Every household in the US is now in debt to the FEDs for $116K as the income redistribution continues. The Wall Street Bailouts count as income redistribution upwards.
Toxic Bailouts
http://counterpunch.org/lindorff03232009.html

* We may be in a 15 year downturn (depression) as the FEDS continue to save losing companies (aka the international super rich and over-paid unions) amplifying the downturn.

* A Ron Paul, or 3rd party, bumper sticker can now land you on a FED terrorist watch list, so can using the word Constitution in a letter to the editor.

2. Newt Gingrich:

* "Chris Dodd is a liar", he wrote the AIG bonuses into the "stimulus bill". No one else had the authority to do it.

Note: What Germany's top news magazine thinks of the Stimulus Bill
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,605695,00.html

* "Obama is moving ahead with his far left radical agenda to remake the entire legal system and government with little to no opposition during the "crisis"". Nationalized Financial Systems, Health Care and Schools for starters.

3. China, Russia and France (and others) are all calling for the world financial systems to dump the Dollar. Additional Trillions of dollars held by foreign governments will be dumped on the market if this goes forward demolishing the value of our Dollar. Our money will become worthless like the peso.

Great photo on the front page today of The SUN catching Park District candidate Suzanne Hart in a very unflattering pose spying on fellow candidate Jim Ensign's notes while he spoke at N. Central. She should be scoping his thoughts because he's one of the few people running for the position that actually has a degree in Parks & Recreation. He received the Brighbill Award from U of I, the departments highest honor.

If you know her like many do, that snapshot has to really be sticking in her craw today because she's maybe the most narcissistic person I've ever met.

Good coverage of the candidates on page 4-5 inside today SUN.

Are the citizens and taxpayers of Naperville willing to resupply the city pension funds including the police and fire that were depleted in this market downturn?

These pension deficits were $61.5 million before the markets collapsed. They are estimated to be 100 million now.

With an estimated 50,000 households in Naperville this will cost each homeowner roughly $2000 dollars if my brain is functioning properly.

The only other alternative is to have state and city officials reduce pension pay-outs significantly and extend retirement ages from 51 to 66. Many California cities were in denial and did nothing. Now they have all filed bankruptcy and the police and fire officers are getting ZERO...ZILCH. They were falsely promised 90% of their pay in pensions before bankrupcty.

Goverment officials need to understand they are dragging us down the Grand Canyon. Can they ever get us out of this fiscal fiasco?

When will we finally see the end of the stranglehold teachers have on our society with their unions? At the current rate increases (compounded annually) teacher's salaries basicly double every 15 years.....add in their pensions add it's no wonder their choking out the state budget. It's time to draw a line next year and say sorry, "go to another district if you want." I'm tired of 204 and 203 unions conspiring with each other & leveraging the taxpayers for what is becoming a ridiculous amount of money to work for 9 months a year (plus a gazillion holidays.)

Stop, stop, stop telling me how teachers have to re-invent the "educational wheel" every summer. Lesson plans are barely tweaked from year to year and teachers basicly read from the same script every school year with a couple of minor lines changed. They say they need to keep up with inflation....unions are the cause of inflation. How about the administrators? How many 6 figure number crunchers do we need? Is a supt worth 5 times a teacher's salary? To do what? Review budgets? Analyze "no child left behind" for the umpteenth time? Go to symposiums in San Diego every year to hear how other imposters waste tax money? Then retire with double pensions maxed out to the 33rd power after only 2 or 3 years in the "big chair". How many $140 million dollar Taj Mahals do we need? They've got most people buffaloed into thinking you can't take a quantitative approach to education. It's time we elected some school board candidates that have an understanding of the "bottom line" of our educational tax dollar.

I say we bust it up next time around. Take one for the team for generations to come. Let them strike. Let's see how tough they talk after missing a couple months of paychecks. Hire some subs (scabs)to read from the scripts, make management (staff) handle some teaching (line) positions, put some of the basic classes on-line for home schooling until we bust out these unions once and for all. Change all future pension formats to a 401K type format like the rest of the corporate world is doing.....or just continue to cave year after year until we're paying teachers 200K a year 2 generations from now. Don't worry our children won't be "damaged for life" like they want us to believe. They might even LEARN something in the process.....like how not to be held hostage by one of the worst educational models in the world!

I am still interested in seeing these answers! Please post soon.

By Thom Higgins on March 16, 2009 10:49 PM

John Q, and others,

Dan Denys and I met with Dave Zager today to briefly go over the questions ans answers that have been swirling around about teachers salaries and The Champion salary information. I expect we will have some definitive answers posted very soon.

Moderator,

I guess it is important for you guys in the Sun to stay on good terms with these City Unions milking the taxpayers dry.

I assume you have a 401k pension moderator, that has been reduced to a 201k pension.

The city unions lost half their money as we did. But they want us to reimburse their pension funds so they can continue milking us for 75% of their highest jacked up salary when they retire after 30 years.

How could you be on the fence on such a hot issue? It is black and white. Take a stand against the unions that are milking us for every last dollar we possess to reimburse them for their own money they lost and let them take responsibility for themselves as we do for our selves.

I wish you guys at the Sun would stop worrying about being politically correct and hold our city officials accountable for losses they sustained. The puck has to stop at their doorstep....not the homeowners doorsteps.

You are a big boy Chris and dealing with your 401k losses like a MAN should. You are not asking for a bail out. Why should you be on the fence when our police and fire fighters can't take responsibility for their losses? it is time they become big boys and act like MEN who take responsiblity for their losses.

Thanks Moderator.

I am glad you are on board for outlawing pensions.

I just can not imagine this new governor thinks he can hit us for a 50% tax increase so State Employees can continue to have their big fat pensions at the expense of the taxpayer who is being socked in the groin. Why does he not ask the pension recipients to slash their pensions by 50% instead of rasing our taxes by 50%? Bring back Blagojevich. I don't care how corrupt he was at least he did not raise my taxes.

Maybe if the media goes on a blitz against these pensions I will consider keeping my business in Illinois. Otherwise I am packing and leaving. I am sure others had enough too.

One thing that puzzles me is how the taxpayers are completely asleep. I am not sure if they just don't know what is going on because of inadequate media reporting or if they are all going to emigrate from the state leaving only state employees to finance their big fat pensions that are bankrupting our state and city.

I don't mind if we have to wait longer to put this pension in the forefront as long as you guys in the Sun put it in the forefront and arouse the sleepy taxpayer. Maybe we can have our own tea pary on the shores of the Dupage River outside of City Hall. I will be there....that is a promise.

When will the Sun cover the elections?

When will the Sun call for the outlawing of all pensions?

John Q, and others,

Dan Denys and I met with Dave Zager today to briefly go over the questions ans answers that have been swirling around about teachers salaries and The Champion salary information. I expect we will have some definitive answers posted very soon.

e^(i*pi)

Please realize that the daily Herald study does not use OEPP in it's calculations, but rather total revenue. And of course the national studies by USN&WR, and Newsweek don't really concern themselves with cost. However whether it's my analysis of ISBE report cards, The Daily Herald, Chicago magazine, Chicago Tribune, USN&WR or Newsweek study, the conclusion is the same. D203 is providing the kind of environment that allows our kids to excel academically.

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

One more relevant question for my list: 5) Is the 3.52% (Thom's figure) to 3.65% (203 Sal's figure) average yearly increase excessive?

-JQP

In order to have a meaningful debate about this, it doesn't make sense for one side to focus on the pay increases of individual teachers at various points on the scale, while the other concentrates on the increase in the total payroll.

In order to have a meaningful debate, one side must admit and realize there is a difference. Until that time, we will hear over and over about the Red Dot (SCORE/OEPP) in it's many forms which are just different observations of the same data set.

Regarding the increase to 4.5% Welcome to the world of small business owners and their Sub-S corporations. Oops, I'm sorry. The 1.5% hit is called something fancy like the "Corporation Replacement Tax".

e^(i*pi)

The new idiotic governor who replaced the corrupt governor wants to raise STATE INCOME TAXES 50% in one year.

He says it is for spending to enhance the economy but it is really to keep his pension and that of all public officials rolling at a 75% rate at taxpayer expense. Imagine this idiot wants taxpayers to pay for the losses state and city pensions took during the recent financial crisis. It is like asking the taxpayer to take it on the second cheek after their 401k became a 201k.

I would like the Naperville Sun to rally residents against this tax increase which comes on top of a 5.9% real estate increase in Naperville despite the fact that their salaries were chopped if their jobs were not axed. And top that with declining home values.

About 8 states have no state income tax and we want to raise ours 50% so the politicians can get their FAT PENSIONS. What spending will this create to stimulate the Illinois economy?

That is almost a joke. The only stimulous this will cause is for residents and businesses to leave the state to other states that have no state income tax and lower real estate taxes.

I think Illinois is going to collapse before 2012 is over. And I will blame the media for not exposing all this corruption when the state finally collapses.

Pensions need to be halted and outlawed. Everyone should be part of the same Social Security System. Everyone should be treated equally.

It is unimaginable that people who lost their 401ks to the stock market are being called to replinish and subsidize the pension funds of those who blew their money betting on AIG, Citicorp, and other corrupt and/or incompetent companies.

It befuddles me how badly taxpayers are asleep in this town. The media is asleep. And since every elected politician is immediately given a pension, no one can count on the politicians to fight for the citizens.....they will fight for their pensions. Pensions to politicians should be OUTLAWED!

203 Salary Expert's post demonstrates why it is possible for both Thom Higgins and his critics to be correct in what they've said about salary increases in the district. The combination of the step increase and the district-wide salary increase could result in most teachers seeing their pay go up by 7% or more every year. However, the district's total payroll increases by only around 3 1/2 percent. This is possible because as teachers retire at the top of the scale, they are replaced by new teachers whose salaries are only 35-40% of the salaries of the people they replace.

In order to have a meaningful debate about this, it doesn't make sense for one side to focus on the pay increases of individual teachers at various points on the scale, while the other concentrates on the increase in the total payroll. It's more meaningful, IMO, to ask (my answers are in parentheses): 1) Are teachers' starting salaries too high? (I don't think they are.); 2) Are teachers at the top of the scale paid too much? (Maybe.) 3) How many step increases should there be in the pay scale, and how frequently should they occur? (Beats me.) 4) What value should be attached to a teacher's continuing education and attainment of higher level degrees? (It depends.)

The pension issue is a whole different can of worms.

-JQP

To 203 Salary Expert:

Awesome analysis! Thank-you for taking the time to do this. I would really like to see someone from the SD respond to this...

What is taking Zager so long to get back to Denys and Higgins. He has the facts, he is an experienced school business official. This is a real shame.I

I have compiled a file for District 203 Salary History 2000 to 2006 using the Champion (info supplied by Zager and his predecessor, Al Albus)detailing salaries published for D203 employees comparing 2000 to 2006 for all those who remained in the district over that time. The real data shows a compound annual salary increase for those employees of 7.18% per year...simply outrageous in the face of our low inflation environment over that period of time and the 5% tax cap.

The second file (10 Year Salary Comparison) uses actual D203 salary schedules for '98-'99 and compares them to those for the '08-'09 salary schedules.

The total average increase for each cell of the 24 (steps) x 11 (lanes) matrix has increased by 43.1% from the '98 to the '08 school years. The minimum salary has increased from $29,500 to $41,969 (+42.3%) and the maximum salary has increased from $70,001 to $103,720 (+48.2%)...so it becomes immediately clear that for all the complaining that the staff member "stuck" in the maximum salary cell is getting "screwed" is a complete misrepresentation of the facts.

(28) of a possible (60) cells found in lanes MA+12 to MA+54 and steps 0 to 11 had compound increases of 148% or more...the sole, additional exception was MA+54/Step 23!!! All other (235) cells had total compound increases of less than 148% over this 10-year period.

The union is controlled by senior staff and it has always made it a priority to take care of senior staff first...that is why the Step 23 and MA+54 lane have been added to our contracts.

Of course, the second "big hit" when the most senior staff gets the largest increases is to the IL Teachers Retirement Fund as retirement pensions are driven by the average salary (plus all stipends) that a teacher earns during their final 4 years prior to retirement.

The salaries on the schedule DO NOT include the 6% per year, additional pre-retirement raises that are not included in the data shown.

A 43.1% increase over 10-years means that the average value of each of the 254 cells has increased at a compound rate of 3.65% NOT INCLUDING raises that are "earned" by taking additional steps (added years of service) and moving over to additional lanes (added credit hours for bachelors and masters degrees).

In order to determine "real" salary increases (excluding pre-retirement benefit increases and stipends), one must create a "scattergram" that shows how many employees "live" in each of the 24 x 11 matrix cells.

I had the D203 scattergram for the 2001-02 school year. It included 1257.27 staff members (FTEs). At that point, neither the Step 23 nor MA+54 lane existed...the max salary was Step 22/MA+42.

I also have the 2004-05 D203 scattergram. It included the MA+54 and, by then, 60% of the total MA+42 and MA+54 employees had "advanced" to MA+54. In 2004-05, the total number of FTEs had increased to 1285.82.

My hypothetical scattergram used for salary comparison includes 1257.27 staff members scattered from BA+0 to MA+54 and from Step 0 to Step 23.

Over the course of a teachers career in D203, virtually 100% of our retirees with 33 or more public school experience years have made it to MA+54; often years before retirement.

In order to be conservative while making 10-year salary increase comparisons, I have assume that the "average" teacher makes 3 lane changes per 10-year period. Each teacher with 14 or less years experience will also take (10) "steps" over that same period of time. Teachers with 15 years of more experience can take 9 steps, those with 16 years experience can take 8 steps, etc.

If we are to assume that each of the 1257.27 teachers who had worked for the district had remained in the district for the next 10 years and taken up to 3 lane changes and up to 10 step changes, we can compare "real" salary increases...no retirees, no resignations, etc.

Those 1257.27 teachers would have earned a total of $64,271,000 in '98/'99 and would have earned a total of $113,024,000 in '08/'09. This is a total increase of 175.9%; a compound 10-year increase of 5.8% per year during the past decade.

The district likes to discuss "payroll" expenses. I don't have an issue with that; however even though total payroll may increase by 4% per year, that takes into account that a certain % of senior staff retires and is replaced by more junior staff.

The "payroll" concept masks the reality of what individual teachers are earning.

As the 2000-06 data shows...teachers earned "real" 7.18% increases.

As the scattergram/salary schedule shows, even conservative estimates show increases of 5.8%.

These are the facts...there is no denying them.

The "payroll" concept is a deceptive as it relates to individual teachers salaries as the "tax rate" is deceptive to individual home owners tax bills.

Let's not talk "payroll" and "tax rate"...let's talk "paycheck" and "tax bill"......

Of course the greatest issue here is none of the above.

The biggest issue, by far, is the value of the TRS retirement to a retiring employee.

I will use myself as an example. Most D203 teachers (among those who work continuously in public education from age 22 to retirement) accumulate more than 170 "sick" days and are able to retire after 33 years of service at age 55 at 75% of their average salary over the prior 4 years.

Had I retired in 2007 (33 years after graduating from college) at MA+54 with (2) coaching stipends, my total GUARANTEED retirement earnings until age 85 would be $3.8 million.

However, as a non-teacher, I could not retire until age 62 on Social Security. My retirement earnings on SS would be less than $800,000 if I lived to age 85.

While SS is at risk, the TRS is guaranteed by the State of IL (no matter what happens to the stock market)...therefore, a retiring D203 teacher will earn $3 million more in retirement than a worker in the private sector who has no company retirement benefits.

This is the "big secret" that educators DO NOT like to talk about!!!

As the late, great Paul Harvey said...this is the "rest of the story"

"a one-year contract calling for an average 2 percent salary increase"

I generally am supportive of teachers, however, everyone I know is either out of a job or on his/her way to losing one, getting no raise or agreeing to cuts or 25% or more in pay/benefits in order to keep the business/company going, and thus, keep a job to put food on the table, or are unable to find work! Teachers don't need to do the same? That's more than messed up.

"Superintendent Stephen Daeschner said both sides negotiated toward a one-year deal because of concerns with current economic conditions" -

what a load! If there were any true concerns, there would be no raise, but an agreement to freeze pay and benefits for a year because of current economic conditions.

THE COMPLETED DISTRICT 203 SCHOOL BOARD CANDIDATE QUESTIONNAIRES FOR ALL TEN CANDIDATES ARE NOW POSTED ON OUR WEBSITE:

http://www.qualityeducation203.org/cms/index.php

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

I'm starting to think Thom Higgins is some kind of sentient District 203 defense robot. I've never seen someone so militant when it comes to defending a school district.

BEEP BEEP BOOP DISTRICT 203 SLANDER DETECTED ON THE INTERNET

INITIATING DEFENSE PROTOCOL

EXECUTE: FUZZY NUMBERS

EXECUTE: IRRELEVANT COMPARISONS

DISTRICT 203 DEFENDED; DEACTIVATE

Thom Higgins... REVEALED: http://fryrobot.ytmnd.com/

One month+ after the Mitrovich hire, and I think I finally got it. How about.....

District 203 is such a great value and such a great bargain that the only possible comparison is to itself.

I like that. I like it a lot. Have a good weekend.

-1

Two observations about the District 204 contract.

1. They are keeping up with 203. Amazing how the 203 contract had a 2% increase for next year.

2. The real increase is AT LEAST 4%. You have to at least add the step and contract increase together. When you add lanes, teachers can make as much as 8 to 9%.

With 0.1% CPI and a zero to negative ECI (ECI does not adjust for layoffs by the way), the contract should have been zero with steps REDUCED to 1.5%, if not 1%. So the contract is at least 2.5% over the "rest of the world".

Very busy weekend kids,

e^(i*pi)

Please, please, give us another local school district that's a better value so we can compare.

Bubo,

Spending more money isn't a silver bullet. A district needs to know how to allocate it. All the school districts that spend more but achieve less than D203, even though the socioeconomic characteristics are similar, proves that point abundantly. But it's also no coincidence that the four districts that perform at higher levels that D203 also spend on average 34% more than D203. Great kids and families, great schools and lots of money. They should perform well. The top four have all the advantages and deliver. Some have them and don't, Lisle just sticks in my craw here. They should be at a much higher level. 203? great kids and families, great schools and little dollars comparatively. Chicaolands best value.

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

It's for one year, and it's only 2% but it still looks awful when you consider how many people in the work force are loosing jobs, taking pay cuts, or getting nothing in raises. Also, anyone who follows teachers salaries understands that as long as they continue to receive step and lane increases in addition to the 2%, this is really just business as usual. D203's current contract (negotiated in 2007) is for 2% over the base and will expire in 2011. I wonder if that had an effect on 204's negotiation?

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

Okay. Where is the real Thom Higgins, and what did you do with him?

e^(i*pi)

bubo, click on the link way from above labeled "graph". It will give you scores vs income. That fits your description nicely. If you follow the instructions above, you can pull up Scores vs OEPP to see a blob of incoherence.

Thom,

Can you crank in the scores from Chicago and Wash DC? I think they will demonstrate that the more you spend per student, the lower the scores.

The reason Naperville does well is because of our families with highly educated and motivated parents that put a premium on performance.

Does your analysis take into account the economies of scale which are present in school districts the size of 203 and 204?

Placing additional economic burdens on our families so that the parents are never home will not help student performance.

"From my spreadsheets here are the top 15 high school districts by their OEPP and ACT score. If you think anyone of them is superior to D203 on a cost or academic performance basis I'd like to hear it."

To: By Thom Higgins on March 13, 2009 7:11 PM

In this age of increased responsibility, I find it irresponsible to lower the standards we have already set in D203 by electing to compare ourselves to a group that has underachieved versus our past standards.

An analogy, perhaps? Let us try:

Many average or below major league baseball players move to Japan to play in the Japanese leagues. There are quite a few who were, as I said, average or below: BA .225 to .250, 8 HRs. 45 RBI, etc. They went to Japan and became stars there (BA .330, 25 HRs, 90 RBI).

Now, here is the question: Did lowering the competition, and by reference the immediate standards, really make them better players?

I think we both know it did not!

AP California:

....... 26,500 educators receive preliminary layoff notices

........15,000 bus drivers, janitors, secretaries and administrators also were expected to receive the written warnings,

http://www.newser.com/article/d96tnkag0/teachers-protest-in-california-as-26500-educators-receive-preliminary-layoff-notices.html

One more quick comment on the ACT scores. And I never want to talk about those again. really. data from ISBE:

Naperville Central 2000 24.7 2001 24.9 2002 24.4
Naperville North 2000 25.1 2001 25.0 2002 24.4

So each school had a mild initial drop.

From the ACT:

"Colorado and Illinois, after beginning statewide ACT testing of 11th graders in 2001, each saw their average state ACT scores drop initially, as did Michigan this year. However, each has seen steady and significant score increases in the subsequent years: Colorado’s average ACT composite score rose from 20.1 in 2002 to 20.5 this year, while Illinois’ average score improved from 20.1 in 2002 to 20.7 this year." So the initial drop happened in D203 from 2000 to 2002, and then increased by the about the same amount as the state from 2002 to 2008. Yahoo! Phenomenal! Stop the presses! Surely a sign of one of the best districts in the state! Worth every penny of increased spending! Best Value! Dare I say a bargain! Can't be beat! See the Red Dot!

e^(i*pi)

(If my prior post says anything above hourly wages and ECI, ignore it for now. I'm not sure if it was removed from my final edit. It is not posted, so I cannot tell)

District 204, teachers reach tentative contract deal

From the DH

Indian Prairie Unit District 204 has reached a tentative contract agreement with its teachers union, officials confirmed Friday.

Assistant Superintendent for Human Resources Nancy Valenta confirmed information obtained by the Daily Herald that both sides tentatively have agreed to a one-year contract calling for an average 2 percent salary increase.

Indian Prairie Education Association President Val Dranias said the 2 percent increase is on the base salary, before the yearly "step" increases teachers normally receive for additional schooling or training.

Superintendent Stephen Daeschner said both sides negotiated toward a one-year deal because of concerns with current economic conditions.

It's for one year, and it's only 2% but it still looks awful when you consider how many people in the work force are loosing jobs, taking pay cuts, or getting nothing in raises. Also, anyone who follows teachers salaries understands that as long as they continue to receive step and lane increases in addition to the 2%, this is really just business as usual. D203's current contract (negotiated in 2007) is for 2% over the base and will expire in 2011. I wonder if that had an effect on 204's negotiation?

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

Please read what I wrote. Please. Please. Tell me actually what you disagree with if I agree that SCORE/OEPP is a reasonable metric of actually educating the students and D203 is among the top and I fly a flag from my house and a bumper sticker on my car saying Thom Higgins is the best guy in the world and his kid(s) go to D203 THE BEST VALUE DISTRICT around. See, I even put it in bold so casual reader will see it skimming by. Now try to have a rational discussion of something else and the problems brought up.

Especially as you yourself stated that the two prior years that you for some reason ignore were both at approximately 101%. Why did it go from 101% to 94%? That has been covered before and maybe you could ask your math tutor, Dave Zager, for some help. He might have some insight. And does it matter? The several year trend line is not pleasant.

The fact that the district was able to maintain and even slightly improve on its ACT score with the addition of that 17% is quite a feat. You will note that the State ACT score dropped in this time frame from 21.7 in 2001 to 20.5 in 2008. In fact, it is not impressive. Please tell us what % of the state changed from not taking the ACT to taking it? Tell me why D203 had a comparative advantage when additional students were made to take the test. Hint: Tell me why I had the slip where I wrote SAT instead of ACT above? Graph ACT scores for the top scoring (high participation) schools before and after the mandated ACT for all.

Just a question, by asking about the ECI, are you proposing even lower teacher pay? Certainly seems like it. You really want to add in the employer cost of benefits? I was being kind by not mentioning rising health costs above. You want to compare hourly wages, really? Have at it, buddy.

And may I ask if you actually understood my questions above?

e^(i*pi)

e^(i*pi)

About this:

You act as if I am insulting your family when I point out the things which are not working great.

Well you may feel it's not working out so great, and you are certainly entitled to that view, but I'm not buying. My friend, briefly, I don't care, and I will wager that most don't care, if D203 over the last (9 isn't it?) went from approx $300 under the state average to $300 over the state average, (your 94% to 104%). Especially as you yourself stated that the two prior years that you for some reason ignore were both at approximately 101%. Shall we pick one of the district's I've listed below and do the same analysis?

You also forgetting this: in 2001 83% of 203 students took the ACT and received a composite of say 25.0 (24.95) The district spent $326.00 under the state average. In 2008 100% of the students took the ACT and received a 25.2 composite. For a cost of $318.00 over the state average. The fact that the district was able to maintain and even slightly improve on its ACT score with the addition of that 17% is quite a feat. You will note that the State ACT score dropped in this time frame from 21.7 in 2001 to 20.5 in 2008.

And, of course, we voted to increase our costs last year by passing a facilities referendum resoundingly which will raise our OEPP a bit. But at the end of the day after it's all said and done when you look at what we spend and the academic achievement our students achieve, versus other school districts, we are Chicago lands best bargain. Which is why I see that you continue to dodge my request to show us a school district that is a better value in your eyes.

From my spreadsheets here are the top 15 high school districts by their OEPP and ACT score. If you think anyone of them is superior to D203 on a cost or academic performance basis I'd like to hear it.

New Trier 203+ ESD36 - $15,188 – 26.9
HP/Derfld 113+ ESD109 - $13,808 – 25.9
Stevenson 125 + ESD 96 - $12,050 – 25.7
Lake Forest 115 + ESD 67 - $$14,429 – 25.6
Naperville 203 - $10,225 - 25.2
Northfield 225 +ESD34 - $13,650 – 24.9
Vernon Hills 128 + ESD70 - $11,374 – 24.6
Barrington 220 - $11,660 - 24.3
Hinsdale86 + ESD181 - $13, 310 – 24.2
Geneva 304 - $10,738 - 23.9
Wheat/Warrenville 200 - $10,746 - 23.7
Indian prairie 204 - $9,222 - 23.5
Elmhurst - $11,945 – 22.8
St Charles – $10,385 – 22.7
Lisle - $14,715 – 22.1

Lastly responding this:

Do you believe that the year-to-year increase in average teacher salary greater than CPI is potentially hazardous to the long-term financial being of the district?

May I gently ask if you are familiar with ECI?

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

On the curriculum -- I believe the district does a decent job of presenting material which ends up on the tests. I believe that a bit too much time is spent in class prepping for the ISATs. I do not believe I said at any point that students in D203 perform mediocre on tests. If you say that students doing well on standardized tests MEANS that the district is excelling in educating the students, then you have made a causation jump to an unrelated measurement.

Mr. Higgins, please read and try to understand the writings of others (selfishly -- me in particular). I have never called you a loony liberal. I have never associated you with any left-wing group. I expected the editor to remove the post about the supposed QE203 supporters in the prior thread. At least have the decency to try to understand what I am writing. You act as if I am insulting your family when I point out the things which are not working great. I think you might understand that you can love your country while criticizing the actions of the leaders. If fact, not doing so is probably a worse offense.

If you actually looked at the graphs linked above, you'd sense that there is no real change in anyone's relative position. Map some other districts. They drift with the masses. OEPP cannot increase significantly due to the tax cap, and relative test score performance does not change much over time either. So what happened before will continue to happen. Is there a flaw that I am missing here? Having said that, since the 2002 referendum the D203 OEPP has increased more rapidly that the state average -- 94% of state average to 104% of the state average. That is LESS VALUE. Not more. Not the same. Less. Is there a flaw there?

Do you still truly believe the average teacher raise is anywhere close to 3.52%? If so, you are gravely mistaken. Do you believe that the year-to-year increase in average teacher salary greater than CPI is potentially hazardous to the long-term financial being of the district? You had better. Can you tell the difference between the last 2 questions? Do you believe that the year-to-year increase in average teacher salary greater than CPI can squeeze out the other components of the budget? I certainly hope you do.

By red dot, I mean any and all claims of SCORE/COST. That is all your research. Over and over and over. Yes, D203 looks great on that metric and should continue to. See above why this does not change much over time.

By the way, how is the raise data coming? It should take all of about 2 minutes to calculate and raise numbers.

e^(i*pi) -- don't blame me, I voted for Vallas! (really)

(for those keeping track : on a prior post, I mistyped SAT where I meant ACT)

For Anonymous,

I of course understand that you only want to compare D203 to some sort of self fashioned standards. But we live in an age of increased accountability. The essence of NCLB is testing, assessment, and accountability. Do I think D203 does the research I do? I'm sure they don't, although I'm sure they benchmark themselves against specific districts. From everyone I've talked to when I discuss curriculum, it's clear these people are deadly serious about educating our children.

But how is the average resident or parent to gauge just how well their district is achieving the goal of a quality education for all students, for their child? One way is to do what I've done. Go to the ISBE report cards and the various studies and see how, for us, D203 compares, and as we all know it compares incredibly well. This does not mean that we rest on our laurels, but I chaffe ant critics that post here and try to convince people that D203 is mediocre. It's plain it's nothing of the sort. See here for details:

http://www.qualityeducation203.org/2008top_hsd_study.shtml

I don't know if you are the same person who's saying that all the SD's in Chicago are pigs, or that D203 is spending 25% more than they should, but in the end, we have to have independent, verifiable, data in order to understand how well are children are being educated and how much money we are spending to get there. I think that's an eminently fair and wise approach. As is asking anyone who disagrees to give us an illustration of a Chicago area school district that is does a better job.

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

What happened to "Ask Ellie"? This was my favorite thing to read in the Sun!

Tom,

I will try again: PLEASE LISTEN TO OTHERS WHEN WE.THEY TYPE, 'CAUSE RIGHT NOW YOU AREN'T!

wE ARE ASKING THAT YOU MEASURE D203 TO ITSELF. THAT IS IT. IT IS THAT SIMPLE.

e^(i*pi)

As you must know, my analysis is far beyond, and more robust, that a
specific data point (your red dot claim).

As I keep asking, and you keep ignoring, please show all of us a school district in the Chicago land area that exemplifies your views, and show what characteristics distinguishes it from D203

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

WSJ: Obama's Poll Numbers Are Falling to Earth
.......................
Polling data show that Mr. Obama's approval rating is dropping and is below where George W. Bush was in an analogous period in 2001.
......................

Eighty-three percent say they are worried that the steps Mr. Obama is taking to fix the economy may not work and the economy will get worse.

Eighty-two percent say they are worried about the amount of money being added to the deficit.

Seventy-eight percent are worried about inflation growing, and 69% say they are worried about the increasing role of the government in the U.S. economy.

WSJ: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123690358175013837.html

To Anonymous, re:

"Right on....the very problem with society. The people who feel entitled are more times than not the people suing."

Not necessarily. I'm sure some of the "suers(?)" may be, but very often it's the nut jobs and opportunists who do the suing. Most of us have much better ways to spend our time and would only take on the burden of pursuing a lawsuit as a last resort. These people don't. They see someone elses mistake as a opportunity for a payday or use lawsuits as a way to soothe bruised egos. An apology and even offering to pay restitution is not enough for these people; they want above and beyond. I think this is what all parents fear being dragged into, especially when it involves their kids, so many have become more protective. Call it "defensive parenting". And when they act this way, they're labeled as entitled. It's a much finer line parents walk these days.

Perhaps you can share some of the behaviors you saw when you first moved here that stood out to you?

Mr. Higgins wrote: While I disagree with your points, I really don’t want to go back over them again, so I’ll just ask you to please show us a school district in the Chicago land area that you feel is superior to D203. Please explain to us in detail why.

Please try to read what I said above to actually know what my points are. Please. You continue to point to the red dot from the Herald News. You need to move beyond that.

In regards to D203

1) D203 has been great in your "quality ratio" for many many years. (Whether ACT scores indicate educational quality or something else is for another time.)

2) D203 has had a decrease in the "quality ratio" compared to itself due to an increase in the denominator (adjusted for state educational inflation) over the past 7-8 years. Compared to itself. Compared to itself. Need I repeat? Need anyone else repeat this. Yes, "adjusted for state educational inflation" and "Compared to itself" show up in close proximity. Please try to read what is being said.

3) It is asinine to try to further compare to other mature districts. Why? Once a spending pattern is in place, it cannot change much without a huge referendum. The levy increase is dictated by the lesser of CPI or 5%. So we should not be congratulating anyone for doing what they should be doing -- living within the law. Lower OEPP before compared to other districts = Lower OEPP now compared to other districts. Plain and Simple.

Perhaps a graph. Click on Student Group and click Per-Pupil Exp (either one). Now click through the years. What do you know -- the cluster just keeps moving to the right from 2001 to 2008 with D203 pushing away from the pack.

4) I'd expect the same or better results (ISAT, SAT, PSAE) due to the many reasons discussed elsewhere. So the numerator in your "quality" should not go down.

Mr. Denys wrote: Also, all of the overcollection of property taxes that has not been spent ($55 million) is NOT reflected in the operating costs. So pain to property tax payers has been greater than the increase in spending that you are citing.

I believe this reiterates the point about the overtaxation not appearing in the OEPP number, making real comparison of OEPP less worthwhile. See also above on why a "low" OEPP in the past means "low" OEPP in the present and future for a mature district.

I actually have a possible solution for the teacher raise issue. I will try to hash it out, but it would involve limiting total payroll increase (per teacher) to the CPI for the reasons mentioned in my prior post. That would not limit individual teachers to a pay increases to the CPI. That would be for the kids, allowing non-payroll issues to increase the same as the payroll issues within the allowed CPI. (Note: by saying CPI, I am not saying D203 is not encouraged to charge less.)

e^(i*pi)

AHAHAHAHAH!!! ILLINOIS INCOME TAXES!!!

Blagojevich was right!!! When I saw that headline this morning I let out a thundering guffaw.

I've got nothing to complain about though, bought a boat load of Citibank when it was at $1.05! LIFE IS GOOD!

Hey Mr. Higgins, this is getting ridiculous. Still no questionnaires posted on QE203.org!!! Are you stalling on purpose? It sure looks like it.

Illinois Income Tax May Jump 50 Percent
Report: Gov. Pat Quinn Wants Tax Hike To Fight Deficit

http://cbs2chicago.com/politics/income.tax.hike.2.958201.html

I find it ironic that candidates that tout “integrity” blatantly ignore the law that states an election sign cannot be posted in public parkways.
The Naperville Code enforcement department has to continually go back out and pick up these illegally placed signs. And the biggest offenders are currently seated Naperville Council members!

What a waste of tax payer money.
Note to politicians: You want my vote? Don’t break the law and litter Naperville all at the same time.

Don’t these candidates currently running for the Naperville Park District Board realize that we the citizens/voters of the most corrupt state in the Union are sick and tired of political/insider shenanigans!
According to the article in today’s Naperville Sun, two current candidates who own personal businesses wish to “contract with the Park District.”
How’s this for transparency…if your personal business dealings rely on the Naperville Park District as a customer…don’t run for public office.
It is called conflict of interest.

Mr. Higgins, I am still confused. When is that deficit spending going to hit 203? There are dates all over the place. Your LTE stated one date but you stated another in here, the school states another date. I am baffled.

Note to PI

Also, all of the overcollection of property taxes that has not been spent ($55 million) is NOT reflected in the operating costs. So pain to property tax payers has been greater than the increase in spending that you are citing.

I sent back my very brief wording on the salary issue, we will see what Dave and Thom say.

Dan

In response...

By what the? on March 12, 2009 6:24 PM

You and I are agreeing.

When you wrote..

When I was a kid many decades ago, I was expected to fess up to my actions and take responsibility for them. Having to apologize to someone for something I shouldn't have done was mortifying to me as a child and served as a pretty good deterrent. But now an apology is often not enough. I think a lot of parents fear someone slapping them with a lawsuit if they make their kids take responsibility for causing someone else harm. And from some of the crazy, petty stuff we all hear going through the courts, this definitely does happen. I think the fear of consequences out of proportion to the offense has made many parents more protective of their kids.

Right on....the very problem with society. The people who feel entitled are more times than not the people suing.

As far as the prairie path walks, etc...I agree. There are friendly people. But that doesn't negate the what I/we saw when we first moved here. And like I said, those people stick out like a sore thumb. Kind of like bad news always makes it before good news.

THOMAS!! I've discovered a few things in your absence. For instance, MSNBC. Good Lord, what a zoo! Next time you're in the area, come and sit a spell.

To e^(i*pi) and the various anonymous posts:

All I can say is what I have repeatedly said before, that you all in different ways, take such umbrage with, but I have the facts and original source documents (with links) to back it up:

When you consider our students’ academic achievement, the amount CUSD 203 spends per student is an absolute bargain.

Why?

There are only four high performing high school districts in the Chicagoland area that posted higher ACT scores than CUSD203 that are non-admissions based public high school districts just as D203 is. However, their average per student operating expense is $3,463 per year, or 33%, more than CUSD203’s $10,225--which is only $318.00 more than the state average.

By every measure I’ve seen there is only one conclusion:

CUSD 203 excels in educating our children and, at a lower cost than any other highly achieving school district.

For more information on the above please go here, there’s analysis, as well as links to the original sources, and information on all the national studies that rank D203:

http://www.qualityeducation203.org/2008top_hsd_study.shtml

The only schools that do better in the various academic benchmarks are limited enrollment, admissions-based schools such as the Chicago Public Schools college prep academies and public schools that spend a significantly more than CUSD 203. that’s it!

More specifically to e^(i*pi):

While I disagree with your points, I really don’t want to go back over them again, so I’ll just ask you to please show us a school district in the Chicago land area that you feel is superior to D203. Please explain to us in detail why.

Regarding these anonymous comments:

You have put a lot of personal investment in data from the Herald article --- I would submit that is a weakness in your stance. You also blow off others, such as the Champion, because it is A)not perfect and B)Does not support your argument. If you eliminate the outside data on the other places, you can get a mathematically good set of numbers.

Absolutely untrue. I have done in depth analysis of comparable school districts using the ISBE report cards. The data from the Herald study is quite valuable, but if you look at the Chicago Magazine locally, and the USN&WR and Newsweek studies nationally, it all comes out the same! D203 excels at helping our children succeed academically, and the do it for less. I’ll have a definitive statement on the Champion soon.

I am asking that you IGNORE using as your "point of excellence" the other State of Illinois schools as they serve only as said earlier ---- a pigpen. You have often stated, as have about all of us here, that D203 is very, very good. So I am asking that you use D203 as the reference point for excellence!

I think it’s entirely appropriate to compare D203 to its peers. People have a right to know how their school district stacks up against its peers. Luckily for us it’s a great story. Great academic achievement and low costs. For you to say that all schools are PIGS I think is rather unfair.

No matter how you try to paint the picture, D203 spending increases over the period increased by about a quarter too much! The idea that they spend less than others means nothing in this argument.

Again, I must respectfully disagree. As you say, they spend less than most school districts, and certainly less than most all of their peers. To then say, well, that’s just not good enough I want you to spend even less! , strikes me as going beyond the pale.

I think about everyone on this board (and others), including the famous D. Denis, agress we have a boffo school district here.

Actually Dan has described it a number of times as being mediocre.

Regarding this:

Read your LTE today Thom. I am still confused. First I heard no deficit spending until 2017, then 2014, then 2010 and now your LTE is back to 2014. Which is it?

There’s two separate issues here. A yearly budget deficit, when expenses exceed revenues, and the point where the district spends all of its reserves and is broke and is forced into deficit spending.

Here are the projected annual budget deficit amounts if no actions are taken.

2011-2012 $1.4 million
2012-2013 $5.4 million
2013-2014 $10.3 million

So, whereas the original long term budget projections went out to 2017 before the district was broke, now, because of the economy faltering, that projection has been shortened to 2014, even though the district will most likely start running budget deficits with the 2011-2012 budget. REMEMBER THIS IS BASED UPON THE PRESUMPTION THAT NO ACTIONS ARE TAKEN SO AS TO GET A BASE LINE

It is important to note that D203 is embarking on a cost cutting program to extend these dates out as far as possible, which is why I took such umbrage with Dan Denys comments below:

The District 203 budget issues really should not be in the news. Why? Because they should be able to manage this without a crisis

There is no crisis for D203. Other school districts? Yes, you can read it in the paper almost every day. The only person who seems to be saying this is a crisis for D203 is Dan.

Lastly regarding this,

Thank you Pi. Once again you slay the bogus arguments presented by Thom, QE203.ORG and the rest of his minions. Now Naperville are you listening? Get ready for the next bond referendum coming your way. It's coming sooner than you think. NOW is your chance to make a statement to this board. Throw Crotty and Romberg off the board. Make a statement now for more rational salary increases in 203.

I stand on the quality and accuracy of my research. Pi is really, in essence, trying to offer alternative arguments to mine. And while he is saying he doesn’t think my research is valid, he has yet to prove that the numbers I’m using are not correct, because he can’t.

As far as another referendum, NO. There’s not one coming anytime soon. This talk reminds me of all the scare tactics Davitt and Denys used in the facilities referendum last year. the referendum will end up costing three times, the school district will trick us and do premium bonds to yield more than they asked, etc, etc. And of course none of that happened, and, in fact, the district elected to forgo the first years referendum charge to the residents because the CPI increase was enough to pay for it and operations. They didn’t have to do that, and that decision was made in order to save the you and me real money.

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

what the? on March 12, 2009 6:24 PM

________

Hey what the ?, Yes I'm still around, but not much time to peruse. As usual you are right on the mark with your comments. (although, I think we still disagree over politics - which is ok!!)

By Anonymous on March 12, 2009 8:11 AM

By what the? on March 12, 2009 12:44 AM

Apparently you feel like you are entitled. There are friendly people everywhere. It is the one's who feel they are entitled who stick out like a sore thumb. And there are an abundance here in Naperville. There are worse things for sure. But a sense of entitlement can lead to many bad things. Look at the way our kids are raised nowadays with the "not my kid" answer to so many problems. That is 20 years of entitlement built up. Much of the problem with our country.
=====================================

I knew that comment was coming! Do I think I'm entitled? Actually, no. But you might think so. And if you do, that's ok. Entitled is not an eight-letter expletive. I also think the folks who spend so much time ruminating over the supposed "entitlement behavior" of others may feel like it diminishes them in some way. I don't feel diminished by the bad behavior of others, that's their problem. I run into folks all the time who wave me through traffic when it's not my turn, hold doors open, even instruct their kids to do so. Try walking on the prairie path on a good day; every stranger who passes you has a friendly greeting. Maybe it's this stuff I focus on.

I have children ranging in age from 13-36 and trust me, this "not my kid" thing is not new. I think it's gotten progressively worse over time and exists everywhere. It's a societal problem, not a Naperville one. It has many causes, ranging from kids raised enjoying the highest standard of living ever to the litigiousness of our culture. When I was a kid many decades ago, I was expected to fess up to my actions and take responsibility for them. Having to apologize to someone for something I shouldn't have done was mortifying to me as a child and served as a pretty good deterrent. But now an apology is often not enough. I think a lot of parents fear someone slapping them with a lawsuit if they make their kids take responsibility for causing someone else harm. And from some of the crazy, petty stuff we all hear going through the courts, this definitely does happen. I think the fear of consequences out of proportion to the offense has made many parents more protective of their kids.

To: By Thom Higgins on March 11, 2009 10:59 PM

I thought I was fairly clear: Out of the more than doubling of spending per headcount over the period, about 25% was NOT explained by enrollment changes, inflation, or new programs. This comes from the websites, the actual spending, and the info received from the D203 Business Manager at that time.

Again, you are lost in your arena of mediocrity, meaning your point of reference. You have put a lot of personal investment in data from the Herald article --- I would submit that is a weakness in your stance. You also blow off others, such as the Champion, because it is A)not perfect and B)Does not support your argument. If you eliminate the outside data on the other places, you can get a mathematically good set of numbers. I would also say that all of you have made this argument of salaries way to complicated.

I am asking that you IGNORE using as your "point of excellence" the other State of Illinois schools as they serve only as said earlier ---- a pigpen. You have often stated, as have about all of us here, that D203 is very, very good.

So I am asking that you use D203 as the reference point for excellence!

No matter how you try to paint the picture, D203 spending increases over the period increased by about a quarter too much! The idea that they spend less than others means nothing in this argument.

If they have less felons than the State average is that something to be proud of? If they have less caught cheaters than others, is that something to be proud of?

I think about everyone on this board (and others), including the famous D. Denis, agress we have a boffo school district here. The difference seems to be that you and your organization perpetually apologize for it instead of doing actual investigative studying, looking at it with a jaundiced eye and asking "How can we do better?"

Instead, you appear to be satisfied to attack al other citizens who do that questioning and point to the Herald as the word of God.

Walk a mile in the shoes of the other side of the argument ----it can sometimes be much more comfortable than you would expect from a foreign set of shoes!

Thank you Pi. Once again you slay the bogus arguments presented by Thom, QE203.ORG and the rest of his minions. Now Naperville are you listening? Get ready for the next bond referendum coming your way. It's coming sooner than you think. NOW is your chance to make a statement to this board. Throw Crotty and Romberg off the board. Make a statement now for more rational salary increases in 203.

(reprinted in part from Mitrovich column)

Let's agree that the 3.52% total teacher payroll increase in correct. I actually agree with this analysis assuming no change in number of teachers. The CPI inflation over the past 9 year has averaged 2.9%. Why do I care? Isn't this number (or CPI) used to calculate the assessment increase D203 can levy?

If so, guess what? The referendum "For the Kids" in 2002 was clearly not about the kids.

"My point is not to bemoan our current contract. It is simply to say that, especially in tough times, this community - our teachers, our school board, and our residents - must band together and sacrifice some for the benefit of those who matter most - our children." link from above -- Dan Iverson

Becky Rudolph said it best back here.

So the increase in payroll is greater than the increase in levy. What can that mean? One and only one thing. More money for the teachers and less money for everything else by comparison. About the kids, my (tushy).

I am still wondering about D203 accounting on IIRC (supported and linked to by the ISBE) showing NO bond and interest and NO Site& Construction over the past few years. That makes me think the the value argument is incomprehensible. The denominator for D203 may be different than other places. Therefore, I am formally retracting my previous statement along the lines that nobody can argue about ACT/spending per pupil being the best in D203. I do not trust the denominator (and take the numerator as meaningful with an ocean's worth of salt).

(added from before OEPP = Operating Expense Per Pupil):

Let me understand the taxpayer savings you speak of, Mr. Higgins. The board collected too much in taxes. The board decided to use this money for some purpose other than what was approved. This money was taken from me and I could not use it or invest it. NOW, you are asking me to be thankful that the board has extra funds to pay for projects so the last referendum request (2008) wasn't as high and I will SAVE on interest. WHAT!?!?!?!

That same ACT/OEPP ratio which you crow about seems as if it cannot drastically decrease for D203. Why? Since the levy increase is fixed at an upper limit, the board MUST keep expenses in line or come banging on our doors. Perhaps that is why the ratio is still good. It is a carryover. Oh wait, we already showed that from 2001-2008 (or some such dates after the last bonds were retired) D203 went from 94% of state OEPP to 104% of state OEPP (and the state OEPP increased faster than CPI). OOPPs is what it should be called. Now we have more invisible OEPP via prior excessive tax collections. Nice. Very nice.

Really, what am I missing? How could D203 not still be among the "best" ACT/OEPP when it started so far behind in OEPP to begin with? It is worse compared to itself.

e^(i*pi)

Read your LTE today Thom. I am still confused. First I heard no deficit spending until 2017, then 2014, then 2010 and now your LTE is back to 2014. Which is it?

That's realy RICH Thom. As opposed to your buddies at PURE and their anonymous activities? Oh I know you didn't approve of it. Blah blah blah.......

Anyone can say that, but I will never forget what your buddies Dianne McGuire and other District 203 Union Hacks did. Whatever Mike Davitt has done anonymously he just pulled a page from McGuire's, Stroger's and Mike Madigan's play book and now you want to cry about it like a baby. Give me a break!!!!!

Don't forget Naperville Dianne McGuire took over $500,000 from Mike Madigan to try and defeat Darlene Senger. McGuire lost and Madigan blew his $500,000+. Just think of that Naperville when you go to the polls in April. Dianne McGuire attempted to bring corrupt Cook County politics into Naperville and she was aided and abetted by the likes of guys like Thom Higgins, Peter Shulman, Jackie Romberg, Dan Iverson, and many many more. Vote against the two incumbents running for re-election on the school board. That would include Jackie Romberg and Susan Crotty.

Check out Dianne McGuire's money trail here.

http://www.elections.state.il.us/CampaignDisclosure/CommitteeDetail.aspx?id=20743

One more thing. McGuire is now running for Naperville Township Clerk. Her plan is to weasle her way into a State office. She will probably attempt to run against Darlene Senger again. You can stop her in her tracks by voting against her in April.

{{{{By Thom Higgins on March 11, 2009 10:36 PM
Anonymous,
I will offer two replies:
A little suspense never killed anyone.
And
It always takes longer when you are trying to be fair and accurate, especially when you have the integrity to put your name on it, as opposed to Mr. Davitt and his anonymous activities.
Thom Higgins
QE203.org}}}}

By what the? on March 12, 2009 12:44 AM

Apparently you feel like you are entitled. There are friendly people everywhere. It is the one's who feel they are entitled who stick out like a sore thumb. And there are an abundance here in Naperville. There are worse things for sure. But a sense of entitlement can lead to many bad things. Look at the way our kids are raised nowadays with the "not my kid" answer to so many problems. That is 20 years of entitlement built up. Much of the problem with our country.

"The reward for work well done is the opportunity to do more."

Does how you interpret this quote have something to say about you?

JS

To Anonymous and ANONI-MOUSE re: the entitled label.

Good grief, who cares? I've been in Naperville 10 years and think folks here are friendly and courteous. That's the first thing I noticed when I moved here. There are much worse things to be in life than entitled. If that's as bad as it gets around here, I think we're all pretty lucky.

For Anonymous @ 6:16PM

If you are saying that you think D203 is spending 25% more than it should, all I can say is WOW!

Currently they spend $10,225.00, for operational expenditures per pupil. That's just $318.00 more than the state average. If we take your 25% reduction we get $7,668.00. I looked a bit and couldn't find one district that spend that little, even looking down state a bit. The Posen/Robbins elementary SD spends $7930. and the Bellwood elementary SD spends $7907.

Seriously, take a look at the ISBE website or the IIRC. Try and find school districts that spend less than D203 and then ask if that's the kind of education you want for your children.

Thom Higgins
Qe203.org

Anonymous,

I will offer two replies:

A little suspense never killed anyone.

And

It always takes longer when you are trying to be fair and accurate, especially when you have the integrity to put your name on it, as opposed to Mr. Davitt and his anonymous activities.

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

Mr. Higgins, you need a new website administrator. How about hiring Mike Davitt. He could have your school board candidate responses online in no time. Dang, what is the delay dude?

I refer to the bar that D203 has itself set over the years. Great test results at over twice the price (yes, still less expensive than many comparable communities and definitaly very impressive as a stand-alone data point!)

As has been written often, and confirmed by the previous D203 Business Poobah, the cost per head is higher than both the enrollment increases, inflation, AND new programs required by law. I believe the number used over the year in these blogs was about 25%.

By my reference point,, that 25% represents a failure of past performance and thus a failure of both expectations AND anticipation for ongoing improvement (ie raising the bar).

Hopefully, all can read that I see D203 as a great district with really good results for our children. I do, however, hold them to a higher bar than just comapring them to the other Illinois school districts.

Anonymous on March 11, 2009 2:24 PM
Now hopefully some of the "entitled" will read this and take a huge step backward.

------

By "step backward" do you mean back where you seem to be Anonymous? Have you taken this step back and now found enlightenment? What do you care what someone drives, did someone in an SUV full of kids cause you to actually drive the speed limit in your souped up corolla while you were on your way to X-Sport? Doesn't matter what town you live in, all towns have rich, poor, spoiled and entitled - if it bothers you so much I doubt you will find any place suitable for your needs. I guess were just lucky to have you in Naperville.

This is what happens when I take a quick look at the blog!

Anonymous, Please tell us the reference point you are using so we can understand your logic.

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

To: By Thom Higgins on March 11, 2009 11:39 AM

Yes it does!

I submit that by limiting your comparison to only that group, you are defining D203 only by that one group. You have made your population "incestual". Thus, if it is a group of pigs, then D203 is the Queen based on your data!

However, when I compare D203 to another reference point, I find it to NOT be meeting my expectations. In fact, I would say it is proven to be just another high-spending school district that was able to over-tax it's taxpayers!

Expand & open your mind. Remember! When your only tool is a hammer, all problems look like a nail!

JQP,

That is MY point --- they can't reach those lofty heights because they are just that ---- lofty!

It would be pretty easy to get a summer job paying equal to, or a lot more, than the "hourly" rate of the all-year workers I described making the $100k.

In fact, you might be suprised at how much (hourly) teachers get for summer school and for tutoring.

By ANONI-MOUSE on March 11, 2009 2:05 PM

you are right. They are just the ones who stick out in my mind.

Now hopefully some of the "entitled" will read this and take a huge step backward.

To Anonymous on March 11, 2009 1:44 PM

I think we both agree there are more than a few who feel themselves "entitled" - and they don't all live in mansions or drive $50k SUV's

By ANONI-MOUSE on March 11, 2009 1:28 PM

In response.

Take the term "soccer mom" out and just put in the word "the entitled". Soccer mom is the first word that came to my mind. You get the point, right? And yes, I include men. I personally have come across people that fit the term "mom" than "dad" that fit the entitlement mentality here. But I agree, there are men who need a dose of reality too.

I think it is unfair to call those you feel are "entitled" or what ever other euphemism you chose "Soccer Moms". My son played soccer for 10 years in various Naperville area clubs. Not a single one of the Moms on any of the teams drove Escalades or Infinitys. Most were very nice, average moms who did the best they could for their kids. Are there a lot of spoiled, over indulged moms (and dads too) out there? You bet - and you find them on at the baseball fields and hockey rinks and volleyball courts as well.

The Soccer Mom tag was a handle hung on a demographic group by some political strategists in the 1990's. It was originally coined to "described in the article as "the overburdened middle income working mother who ferries her kids from soccer practice to scouts to school". You do the real soccer moms a great disservice by your reference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soccer_mom

Anonymous wrote:

Any teacher has the option of gettng a paying job during their summer vacation (though I admit I doubt it could reach the lofty hourly rate of their "day" job).

And this is exactly what I have been saying all along.

To: Anonymous @ 9:43AM

No it doesn't.

D203 is incredibly efficient in how they spend their dollars, but additionally, when you consider just how little D203 spends per student vs. other high performing districts it's amazing we are in as good of shape as we are. See my analysis here:

http://www.qualityeducation203.org/2008top_hsd_study.shtml

Take a look at the two Excel spreadsheets and find the amount spent per pupil. From the study:

There are only four high performing high school districts in the Chicagoland area that posted higher ACT scores than CUSD203 and they were all non-admissions based public high school districts.
However, their average per student operating expense is $3,463 per year, or 33%, more than CUSD203’s $10,225--which is only $318.00 more than the state average.

When we compared CUSD203 to seven CUSD districts (combined elementary and high school districts) from the surrounding area. We found that CUSD203’s ACT composite score and its ISAT score were the highest of the group and the seven districts average operating expense per student was $1,055 more than CUSD203

I'm certainly not interested in praising a SD if they aren't doing a good job educating out kids and being fiscally responsible while doing it (Glad I don't live in Lisle) But facts are facts and I can prove every single piece of data on those spreadsheets by referring you to the ISBE website where it all comes from, and the bottom line is D203 is incredibly fiscally responsible, and a bargain to boot!

e^(i*pi)

I know, I know, we did the same thing you did already. But it's garbage, in garbage out, my friend!

Bubo

Patience, let Zager get back to Dan and I and we'll have a long post regarding all this.

I'm out of here till late tonight so have fun everyone!

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

The Naperville sense of entitlement

Let's talk about that. It isn't just Naperville but since I live here, this is where I see it.

Soccer moms - not all but many. There are way too many soccer moms who drive around in their large Infinitis or their large Escalades who somehow got a memo that informed them they are entitled. Entitled to do whatever they want on the road. Entitled to treat people with an utter lack of respect whether it be holding a door open for the next person coming through, communicating with a simple 'excuse me' or 'thank you'. It is one of the first things I noticed when I moved here. News for you soccer moms. You are entitled to the same rights I am. No more, no less. Get over yourselves. And you know who you are.

Kids - What have we turned our kids into? Winning and losing used to drive success. Now we can't even tell our kids they lost? Way to set them up for failure in the future. Also to parents - this is a Naperville thing not exclusively but definitely a Naperville thing. Take responsibility for your kids. If you can't handle it, get help. The most apparent example example are the parents of the perp at Gregory.

By Thom Higgins on March 10, 2009 11:24 PM

You wrote "For D203 at least, things aren't as dire as the other districts..."

Does that make D203 the Queen of the Sows?

To: By John Q. Public on March 10, 2009 12:43 PM

JQP, no matter HOW you try and colorize it, hourly pay is not disputable. Any teacher has the option of gettng a paying job during their summer vacation (though I admit I doubt it could reach the lofty hourly rate of their "day" job).

Many, like my wife, teach summer school and tutor. I know others who work for family businesses, summer camps, National Park Service, etc. I also know many who take off on their sailboats for the summer to the Carribean, others who spend the summer at their second homes in the mountains or on the coast, etc.

Of course, I know many, many more people who instead are busy working their 3600 hours for their "Rich" $55k to $110k jobs so they can pay their property taxes!

Why not zero pay raises, and cut the salaries 10% across the board including the administration?

Eliminate the last year kickers that escalate the cost of retirements.

What percentage reduction means no layoffs and let retirements and attrition do the job over a year or two?

Unions typically are structured to protect the union members with the most seniority regardless of productivity or effectiveness. Just hanging around for 30 years is good enough.

========================================
By anonymous on March 10, 2009 7:51 PM

It sounds like Elgin, Crystal Lake and Carpentersville are laying off many teachers next year to keep their books in the black. I believe that some of these layoffs are not only first year teachers, but also underperforming teachers.

By Naperville Sun editorsAuthor Profile Page on March 10, 2009 8:06 PM

Bolingbrook schools are laying off all of their first-year employees too.

Thom,

I'm guessing that you are very popular at the 203 HQ; since you think the Champion is worthless, can you convince 203 to post all of the salaries and expenses for the last 20 years on their web site with the ability for the folks to download an excel version so we can work the real numbers?

I am sure that 203 wants the taxpayers to have the real story on the expenses.

Bubo

========================================
By Thom Higgins on March 10, 2009 11:24 PM

e^(i*pi)

Yes, I saw your spreadsheet, but, as it's based on The Champion, it's worthless. Not your fault, but they don't know what they are doing. More soon on this, and the entire salary issue.

Email to Mr. Higgins regarding raises:

Here is the excel sheet 0506 to 0607 average raise excluding lane changes and excluding end of career bumps. Data from 203 website. Not the champion. Average = 5.7%

Main flaws:

1) We really need a weighted average. This was averaging all possible raises. If I knew how many people were in each group (Years,Education Level), then a better average could be calculated. As such, I believe it is a LOW estimate because it included all the dead zones (lots of years, no additional classes) and excluded end of career bumps. If you calculate from real data and want to exclude the 20% bumps of years past, make sure you use 7% (common practice now) in place of the 20% instead of flat out excluding the 20% bump people.

2) Does NOT include lane changes

Since lane changes give a big bump, and I averaged in the dead zones, I suspect the numbers will be ZOWIE! (as if 5.7% isn't already ZOWIE!)

e^(i*pi)

(not in email: but on spreadsheet

Methodology.

Took all posted salaries and calculated the raise by moving from the 0506 sheet to the 0607 sheet and adding one year of experience. No lane change. I divided the 0607 number by the 0506 number. I then averaged all such ratios. This DOES include dead zones, DOES NOT include lane changes, and treats all such ratios equally. These flaws make the REAL average raise much higher than 5.7%. FWIW, the dead zone raise = 3.3%

Anonymous wrote:

JQP, with regard to teacher salaries, I'm not modeling anything. I am only saying that it's not right to pay someone who signed a contract to work 9-10 months the same annual salary that you pay someone who signed a contract to work 11-12 months.

I agree with that.

And, from an earlier post:

There is NOTHING bogus about annualizing a salary.

If a person works 6 months and makes $100k, that is a $200k job!

I disagree with that.

e^(i*pi)

Yes, I saw your spreadsheet, but, as it's based on The Champion, it's worthless. Not your fault, but they don't know what they are doing. More soon on this, and the entire salary issue.

I'm not going to take the time to comment further until Dave gets back to Dan and I and we can offer a definitive statement on salaries and perhaps the Champion, I will, not positive about Dan.

Anonymous,

Anyone is free to ask candidates questions. Last I heard the SB candidates have had 12 interviews/questionnaires so far. We are not the only ones doing this.

We are finalizing formatting the questionnaires, and will post them soon. Hope everyone has some time. All 10 questionnaires combined run 38 pages.

To the other anonymous talking about salary reductions:

For D203 at least, things aren't as dire as the other districts, many who were in deficit before the economic downturn came. I doubt they will need salary reductions but a pay freeze is quite possible. Somewhere above I posted the projected budget deficits they are quite modest for the first three years as I remember.

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

JQP, with regard to teacher salaries, I'm not modeling anything. I am only saying that it's not right to pay someone who signed a contract to work 9-10 months the same annual salary that you pay someone who signed a contract to work 11-12 months.

e^(i*pi), I greatly respect your approach to data analysis. I have to say, though, I don't see a significant difference between "the number of hours worked for that yearly amount can be found and compared" and comparing hourly wages.

It sounds like Elgin, Crystal Lake and Carpentersville are laying off many teachers next year to keep their books in the black. I believe that some of these layoffs are not only first year teachers, but also underperforming teachers.

In many sectors it's perfectly legal to layoff highest paid as first to go in IL., allowing lower salaried individuals to take over the positions while giving the business some financial relief. I'm not saying this is a good thing and it is tragic for those being laid off, as it's sometimes more difficult at that level to be rehired during economic downturns, but this is one way business has of reducing costs and staying in business when funds are not unlimited and times are tight. Another way of course is to ask employees to take a pay cut across the board to allow less layoffs, and keep more people employed.

How much would teachers be willing to sacrifice in order to keep layoffs within districts from becoming necessary? How much could an individual do without while still keeping their home and paying their bills on behalf of someone else? How much would a community's education system, police force, firefighters and civic employees be willing to sacrifice to keep people employed and also allow people in the community that may be struggling to be better able to afford to pay their taxes when things have become tight for them? What would a 5% cut across the board for these public employees do to bring the budgets back in the black? Would you be able to live on 5% less, especially if it meant your job security and a more stable financial future for the community that supports you?

I know we can also argue about the financial waste that is going on in this community, it's unfortunate but it's a fact and it does happen and what is currently going on is not going to go away. I'd like to remove that from this question and equation, as it's here and must be dealt with. Speaking of public employee costs alone, what kind of a pay cut could really be beneficial to this town's struggling bottom line, while still paying these employees enough for their time and effort, a sacrifice that wouldn't change their lifestyle long term, just a bit of a re-set, as businesses, property values and other employees are experiencing quite often at this time, also.

FWIW, I see the teachers as getting a salary with certain benefits. We then need to compare teachers to workers who earn the same yearly amount and compare the benefits. One of the benefits is TIME -- paid time off, paid sick leave, paid personal days. The number of hours worked for that yearly amount can be found and compared. Others benefits include pension*, health coverage, working conditions, and job protection.

I do not feel annualized salary or converting to an hourly wage makes sense in a comparison to hourly employees or yearly salaried individuals.

my 2 cents

e^(i*pi) -- not an accountant

* Yes, I know how the system works.

Anonymous,

The point is that the teaching job that pays that annualized salary largely doesn't exist, so you are comparing the salary from one profession to a fantasy salary from another. Moreover, in your model, you are effectively saying the teachers should take off two months without pay; if you've ever been asked to take a "furlough" from work, you would know that this is not that much better than working for free.

-JQP

To JQP and Bubo,

The yearly schedule for a teaching job has been the same for at least 50 years. Everyone currently working in the field was aware of the schedule when they chose it. Saying that the annual salary of someone who has agreed to work 9-10 months should be the same as the annual salary of someone who has agreed to work 11-12 months is effectively saying that the second person should work 2 months for free.

That is why the only fair way to evaluate teacher salaries is on a hourly basis. Unfortunately, we never hear it presented that way.

Mr. Higgins, still waiting on your response to my question above a taxpayers group interviewing all school board candidates? Would you support our effort?

Bubo,

That is beside the point. The school year lasts 9-10 months in most districts. Teachers don't have much say in this. There certainly is an economic value to those 2-3 months that teachers don't have to work every year, but that value is very dependent on each individual teacher's circumstances. For teachers that want to work, though, and don't have the option of working at their schools, I doubt it's very easy at all to find temporary work that pays anywhere near what even the lowest paid teachers make per month.

-JQP

Most of you are missing a significant point. My taxes in unincorporated Lisle Township, District 203 are $8500/year. My wife and I are looking at similarly valued properties in the Phoenix area, in similarly nice subdivisions. For the most part the taxes on a $650k house very similar to ours are about $3,000. The quality of education based on student statistics is comparable. One HUGE difference is their school systems don't feel the need to teach kids in $150 million monuments to their school boards. The buildings are much more austere, but very functional. I think we in the Chicago suburbs have gone nuts trying to out-do one another with these insanely expensive school buildings that impress the parents and neighbors much more than they serve the students.

JQP

I have a lot of teachers in my family, they love the job because they don't have to work over the holidays and have the summer off to travel and or spend time with their kids.

People always have the option of getting out of teaching and getting a job where they can work 50 hours a week for 50 weeks a year and maybe, or maybe not, make more money than a teacher.

==================================
By John Q. Public on March 10, 2009 12:43 PM

Anonymous wrote:

There is NOTHING bogus about annualizing a salary.

If a person works 6 months and makes $100k, that is a $200k job!

This is only true if the person has the option of working the other six months for the same salary.

Mike,

Next thing you know they will find more life on Mars, its been a while since Slick Willie used this one when he was in trouble, maybe it will work a second time.

It only requires a willing media to pull it off.

NYT will go bankrupt in the near future with any luck, CBS is in deep trouble too.

Good thing Pelosi is still talking "fairness doctrine" so we will be able to get the socialist slant after everyone turns off their stations.

Obama is still moving forward with Nationalizing the schools, your kids can then get the message of the day from Beloved Leader on their classroom monitors.

Maybe the kids can pray to God for candy, when it doesn't appear they can pray to Obama and the teachers can hand it out. Worked in the USSR with Stalin.

====================================
By Mike Kaindl on March 9, 2009 11:10 PM

................... We have a president and congress hell-bent on driving the economy to zero as fast as possible while deflecting attention to stem cells and Rush Limbaugh, and your front page story is “Look at me, I’m an (interim) editor”. .......................

I sent an excel file to whatever address was on the website run by Mr. Higgins. (info@blahblahblah)

I took the data from 2003 and 2008 and calculated an average raise by looking employee to employee (something like 785 teachers). I did not rule out all the part time--> full time changes or maternity leave or anything else like that, but I did delete the 20 highest raises. I took (2008wage/2003wage)^.2 for each teacher and then averaged that.

I result, you ask?? ... 1.07

So a 7% average year-to-year raise for those who taught in D203 in 2003 and 2008. This somehow is very close to the 6.8% result above.

Some may say the website has faulty numbers. I say so what. Some years a salary may be too high, some too low. I assume that these would even out. Even so, I ignored the top 20 raises.

Mr. Higgins. Any reply? Or do you need to wait to talk with Messrs. Zager and Denys?

e^(i*pi)

Anonymous wrote:

There is NOTHING bogus about annualizing a salary.

If a person works 6 months and makes $100k, that is a $200k job!

This is only true if the person has the option of working the other six months for the same salary.

Whose going to pay for the pension losses suffered by the police and fire pension funds? They are down over 60% from their peaks.

In their infinite wisdom, our city council members guaranteed our police and fire fighters would get 75% upon commencement of retirement in 30 years, no matter how their portfolios did.

Well, because of this guarantee by city and state officials not only will the taxpayers have to take it on the chin with their 401ks that are approaching 101ks, but find a way to replinish all the losses sustained by the police and fire pensions funds. Why have these funds and make investments if their is NO RISK except to the Naperville Taxpayer? They are unfair funds since if they have great returns the police and fire fighters benefit, but if the returns are bad the taxpayers take it up the WAZOO! The police and fire fighters never lose a penny even if the Dow goes to 2000 as many are predicting. We the taxpayers take the losses for them. Amazing Grace. Holy Cow! May God and the Virgin Mary have Mercy!

Just imagine, you will have a 5.9% increase in your real estate tax bill next month despite your home value declining 20% the last 2 years.

Who are the candidates running for council that will watch out for the taxpayer? Our system is corrupt. The minute a city council member is elected he joins the city pension system and fights for it against taxpayer interests. The entire system is corrupt.

I guess no one will do anything until it all blows up like a VOLCANO one day? The press is basically hopeless. They have no money to do investigative reporting and protect taxpayer interests.

Why bother voting? Who ever is elected is going to choose his new pension over you.....the taxpayer. I say let us boycott this election until our city fathers fix the system. Council members should not be part of the pension system in order to protect us from the excesses of the pension fiasco. Next year expect your real estate tax bill to go up 20% in order for city officials to restock these devasted union police and fire pension funds. Do you have the money ready to send???

So Mr. Higgins, would you be supportive of a taxpayer based group interviewing all the school board candidates, questioning them and posting their responses on our website? Would you encourage all candidates to cooperate with us too?

To: Tom and ALl,

There is NOTHING bogus about annualizing a salary.

If a person works 6 months and makes $100k, that is a $200k job!

Without viewing it down to a common element, such as hourly wage, it is impossible to do a comparision.

However, doing so highlights how well paid our teachers are in D203 so they, and their apologists, do not want to discuss it.

As far as the Champion goes, the solution is easy and publicly available: just eliminate all changes greater then 30% and redo the comps.

Statistically the 30% should catch most/all of the partial years, the family leaves, etc. This will result in an average pay increase higher than that advertised by qe203.

The value of the Champion comp is that it doesn't try to create loopholes of excuses for increases by hiding them as steps or stipends ot anything else.

It is simple: Subract Dollars paid in period Y from those paid in period X, then divide by the dollars in period X.

Perhaps it is so simple as to be confusing to those who want to obfuscate the truth from the community?

Anonymous,

You can find the salary schedules here:

http://www.naperville203.org/assets/FinalSalarySchedules.pdf

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

Interesting article about Obama and his plans for education.

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/10/obama-calls-for-overhaul-of-education-system/

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

Why have the salary schedule tables been removed from the district website?!

2005 Agreement

This post is off-topic for you teacher salary calculators, but this forum is "Potluck". This post is directed to the interim editorial staff at the Sun.

Enough, already, with shameless self-promotion. We have a president and congress hell-bent on driving the economy to zero as fast as possible while deflecting attention to stem cells and Rush Limbaugh, and your front page story is “Look at me, I’m an (interim) editor”. Trust that the readership is capable of noticing format and content changes without being slapped about the face and neck with head-to-toe photos of the (interim and associate interim) editorial staff.

I don't know if my subscription has the patience to wait out the interim. Get over yourselves and report the real news. And while you're at it, let Tim West out of his locker.

Anonymous,

I will only say that I am entirely comfortable with all my comments here, and have zero concerns about the accuracy of them, notable criticism by others notwithstanding.

As for the rest, We are certainly not passing ourselves off as you describe.

We offered 12 identical questions to all ten candidates with the offer to post them, in their entirety, and unedited, on our website. They were free to ignore them completely. None did. All ten will be up shortly. Should be fun reading!

To all,

PATIENCE.

Dave was going to get back to us after he reviewed the e-mails. To e^(i*pi), your questions are consistent with my to Mr. Zager, please refer to my post on March 6, 2009 4:04 PM.

Also, I do not want to put e-mails on this listing, but I think you can forward them to the web hoster and they will forward contact to us. OK Chris?

I am interested in meeting e^(i*pi), PS, Skeptical, John Q. Public, Bubo, and others (this sounds like an academy award).

e^(i*pi), I find Higgins lack of understanding of the salary issue quite disturbing. Especially since he is running a website called QE203.org and is passing himself off to the community as the lens in which all critcism of the district must pass through. Who appointed Higgins to this position and why must all candidates respond to his questions. How come their isn't a taxpayer based org. that will demand answers from all candidates and post their responses as well? Maybe there should be such an organization.

e^(i*pi)

I'm tempted to ask you to do my tax return, but then again, maybe not!

I'll get your question to Dave.

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

http://www.scribd.com/doc/218901/How-a-Teacher-Salary-Schedule-Works

So no, no 6-7% raises (never got them in that past) and perhaps no raises at all, if that's what the situation demands. This will be QE203.orgs official position.

Stay tuned.........

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

I am glad you are finally seeing the light, but I kinda doubt you know what you just said. So I will stay tuned.

Ask Mr. Zager: What is the average RAISE over the past 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 years. For this he must take each individual teacher who works year to year, calculate their average yearly raise, and then average those numbers. The number created would fit your ZOWIE moment and will likely make you rethink what you said above.

As I mentioned above, I can find a 5.75% raise without even looking hard (it was a random choice among real alternates) or changing lanes.

e^(i*pi)

(note: I wrote my 6:55 note before Mr. Higgins' 6:48 was posted)

Mr. Higgins,

Please please please stop typing if you do not know the difference between

a) Percent increase in average salary (averaging all salaries)

b) Average percent raise (averaging all individual raises)

These are two very different numbers. If you look at the year-to-year salary increases on the link below, you will find the SMALLEST possible increase year-to-year for a (real) individual teacher is 3.8% for a teacher at the top of the scale. Remember you must go up one sheet AND down one row to get a raise. 2005 Agreement

Random example:

Let's look at a 2005-2006 BA+12 5 years experience = 44269
Compare to a 2006-2007 BA+12 6 years experience = 46814

THAT teacher got an 5.75% raise. Yes, I said 5.75%. This happens all over the chart. Up one sheet, down one row. For those who get to slide one column over, they get additional raise.

You need to do this for each teacher to get the average percent raise. This does not equal percent increase in average salary, nor should it.

I chose this example at random. I would ignore any comparison in the dead zone (too many years, no classes), because if they do exist they shouldn't. Even they get a 3.3% raise. Maybe Zager can actually tell us which sections of the chart are used. I suspect the union would not want that info out since they can use the whole chart to average the sheet-to-sheet raise to deceive us on the real average sheet-to-sheet raise. That would be nice to know where teachers fit on this scale.

I hope you can see that the average percent raise MUST be greater than 3.52%. In fact, greater than 3.8% since that is the minimum for (real) teachers.

Please stop writing nonsense about raises unless you grasp the above.

e^(i*pi)

Note: I say (real) teachers since I cannot imagine anyone would go 14 years without taking those college credit classes.

e^(i*pi

Dave Zager has been good enough to answer a number of questions from Dan Denys and myself. Dan and I are working on a joint statement together regarding salaries after Dave gets us more information. As you disagree with the 3.52% figure, I ask you this: What question shall we put to Dave, whose answer will prove or illustrate your point in contraposition to mine?

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

Anonymous,

Am I correct that this letter to the editor is from 2002?

And, once again, I'm sorry, you can claim that raises were 6-7% but it is a fact that they were not. The average wage growth per teacher over ten years was 3.52% per year. With possibly a tiny percentage added to that in for the decline in average tenure over that time.

I will also say that QE203 will be shortly publishing an open letter to the district (They are asking for public input) regarding the districts plans to cut costs. One of the topics will be teachers salaries. We need to finalize the wording, but our comment globally will be that we need to prioritize around instructional activities.

Positions need to be saved over a general wage increase. From my conversations with my children's teachers they are more than cognizant of the districts and this nations situation, and I fully expect, and will call for, them to be a cooperative partner with the district to help the district deal with these new economic realities. So no, no 6-7% raises (never got them in that past) and perhaps no raises at all, if that's what the situation demands. This will be QE203.orgs official position.

Stay tuned.........

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-0309edit1mar09,0,4058597.story

Read the editorial above. Ah, don't you just love teacher's unions? They love to look out for the children and they always have the children's best interest at heart. Hahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is putting Obama in a tight spot. His girls can attend the private school since he's rich but God forbid if you are poor and want a good school too. This is so full of hypocrisy that I don't know how ANY NEA member can look at situations like this and not be ASHAMED.

I could ask you the same thing about Dan Iverson's pay from 2007 to 2008. How come his reported increase was only 0.8%. It cuts both ways. I will look at Mr. Iverson's pay for the last 8 or 9 years since he's been here and report back. I suspect I will learn why his reported pay only increased by 0.8%. Since he is one of the top union officials for 203 maybe he's receiving pay from the union that isn't reported to the State? I don't know, just asking the question.

Mr. Higgins,

I am NOT saying factoring in the three year decrease in average experience would change the increase in average salary to go from 3.52% to 7%. No No No.

You still seem to not understand the difference between (increase in average salary) and (average percent raise). In the first we average all employee salaries one year and do the same the next year and then find the change in those two numbers.. In the second case, we calculate the percent raise of EACH teacher who stays employed. We then average those values. These 2 calculations are very different, leading you to say ZOWIE when you realize how far off you are. If there were no retirees, no new hires, then yes, these numbers would be the same. But that is not the case. Higher wage workers get replaced by lower wage workers. This does not change the (average percent raise), but places a drag on the elevation of the (increase in average salary) as shown in a previous example.

(( If we assume a model whereby a certain percentage of senior members retire and are replaced by new hires, and the people who stay get a 7% raise (NOT sheet-to-sheet but real honest personal raises), then the increase in average salary comes out to be about 3.5 to 3.6%. This is very close tom the 6.8% as above. This paragraph should be irrelevant anyway if Mr. Denys gets the correct info from D203))

All you have calculated by figuring the increase in average salary is the sheet-to-sheet increase if there is the same level of experience year-to-year. When there is a decrease in experience year-to-year, the sheet-to-sheet increase is actually higher. So your value of 3.52% (which I do not dispute) is the sheet-to-sheet increase in salary (but needs to be adjusted upwards for the 3 years of experience lost).

The real raise is sheet-to-sheet PLUS seniority (down one row) PLUS additional classes/degrees (over one column) which, in total comes to the figure that has been suggested. A 7% per-year average raise is not sustainable, as you pointed out yourself.

I am sorry you do not understand these words. Actuaries have to deal with this all the time in their forecasts. Maybe Mr. Zager can explain it to you better.

And as I always say (and am correct) the average annual wage growth over the last ten years is 3.52% as reported by the ISBE. And as has been pointed out over and over, this does not mean that the average annual raise has been 3.52%.

e^(i*pi) - not an actuary

Check out Dan Iverson's letter to the editor below. Mr. Iverson is one of the head union hacks for District 203. Read his letter to the editor below VERY carefully. It contains the seeds of what will surely be their (the unions)same argument once again when they hit the taxpayers of district 203 for another operational tax increase in the near future. The union is laying the ground work NOW for another tax increase. I say it's time the citizens of this district stand up and tell the Dan Iverson's of the world enough is enough. No more 6-7% increases across the board. Those days are over.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:z7yculc4xoYJ:goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-1334534/Fence-Post-News-Letter-to.html+%22dan+iverson%22+naperville+203+union&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us&client=firefox-a

Anonymous

Then please explain Dave Zagers 25% raise, per The Champion. As I said, I've asked Dave to make a definitive statement, which will be forthcoming, but Dave and I have talked about this in the past and I'm sorry but The Champion isn't credible, it leaves out people, and doesn't solve for people like Dave. That's not my position, it comes from Dave Zager who actually submits the data to the ISBE. What The Champion does with the data, who knows. But they also push the bogus argument of "equivalent 12 month salaries" in order to artificially increase teachers salaries, so I'm sorry but their interest is in making people believe teachers are paid too much. That's plain you read their site.

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

By Southeast Side, as Shakespeare wrote, "me thinks you doth protest too much!!"

Thom Higgins is again making misleading statements about The Champion website, but then again, why wouldn't he it doesn't support his argument.

ONCE AGAIN, the Champions website includes as salary ALL CREDITABLE earnings. What does that mean? That means any salary reported to the state for pension calculation purposes. In my PDF file above I noted I threw OUT anyone with a pay raise over 30% or a negative increase over 30%. That amounted to about 15 people from 2007 to 2008. The unassailable fact is that the increase for over 1200 teachers in District 203 from 2007 to 2008 averaged 6.8%. Higgins can try and use subterfuge, slight of data, etc. But look at the data in my pdf file yourself.

Naperville Sun Editors and Anonymous,

While the Champion posts teacher salary information, it is notoriously inaccurate. For example, Dave Zager is listed as receiving a whopping 25% raise. Did he? No, but as he was employed for a partial year, and then a full year the next, suddenly Dave is reported to have received a 25% raise. The website is designed inflate salaries in order to help make the argument that teachers are paid too much. One needs to also note that all administrators up to and including Dr. Leis, the Superintendent, are included in the list too.

I am trying to get more clarification on this but as I understand it it also magically doesn't include all teachers or administrators.

And as I always say (and am correct) the average annual wage growth over the last ten years is 3.52% as reported by the ISBE.

To e^(i*pi),

Your claim that the decrease in the average tenure by three years, causes the average salary increase to go from my 3.52% to your 7% is incorrect. I have asked Dave Zager to figure what the difference is had the average tenure stayed constant at 15.9 years so we know, but provisionally, it is certainly below .5%. as the number of teacher required to make that three year reduction is minor.

Thom and e^(i*pi),

Thank you for your responses to my question re: step increases.

-JQP

I have been told that some teacher was complaining about salary information being posted on this blog. The Sun responded that they didn't like salary information being posted on here either. Just so the Sun knows, ALL teachers salaries are public information since the TAXPAYER is paying for it. It can be found on www.thechampion.org. Of course teachers in 203 don't like it posted here. It shows how much they really make and how fast their salaries are increasing. I'd like to hide that from tax payers too. I simply cannot understand how the Sun would be complicit in this by NOT allowing posting of salary information. That baffles me.

By Dan D on March 8, 2009 8:35 PM
I would like to respond to Southeast Side posting on March 7, 2009 @ 4:35 PM
"Do you think that a professional with a Master's degree or more and 25 years of experience is somehow NOT worth $100K?"

1. I think you should take an anger management course. Your comments such as crackpots are volatile.

2. To your question. In profession's that I interact, education and salaries have NO relationship. The only thing my masters degree did was let me apply for a job at a major Chicago bank where I landed a position. Many of the top US companies in finance, consulting, and manufacturing will not consider you for a senior level job unless you have a degree from one of the top ten to twenty MBA schools. If you are not from these schools, your resume is simple filed in the circular file. There are only two qualified MBA schools in Chicago (Northwestern and Chicago), for example.

3. Take a look at a sample husband and wife teaching time in 203 from ISBE and District 203 published records.

Mister...years worked...13...10 mo. salary...$79,083...annualized...$94,900
Mrs....years worked...17...10 mo. salary...$89,664...annualized...$107,597

So long before 25 years, this teaching couple is making the equivalent of $100,000, ten years earlier than your question. Is that wrong, should they wait another 10 years before they make the equivalent of $100,000?

4. In the private sector, they "rate" all jobs (to establish salaries). We asked 203 to do this. NEVER DONE. For all we know, teachers are underpaid, but without the study, how does one know. But a hint, if 203 would work like any other employer, I think they would conclude you are overpaid (all companies do this).

5. If anyone wants to make more money than being a common employee, you have to stake out your own business. That is what has made Naperville strong, successful entrepreneurs, not employees. But for every success, there are many more failures.

By the way, if teachers are envious of all of us, why don't they try another profession. And I did teach for ten years at the college level since my great jobs did not afford me the life style I was seeking.

To Southeast Side

After you apologize for calling people "crackpots" and after Dan I. apologizes to the entire community for his actions during the 2005 election. Ask him, he knows.

Note: Contrary to wild accusations above, I am not Dan Iverson, nor even a teacher nor the spouse of a teacher. I am just a regular resident who likes his community and wants to protect it from cranks like Denys and Davitt.

Dan D, It's not fair for you to drag a well-respected teacher's name through the mud. You owe Mr. Iverson an immediate apology.

‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing' - Edmund Burke.

Overall thoughts.

Increase in pay in part should be linked to some increase in value. There is no such mechanism here.

At my company (oohh ... must have a gripe with my employer.. interesting... I guess I am self-loathing??) if I were to have an increase in average salary over 10 years of 3.52% per year while losing 3 years of average experience, I'd be out of business very quickly. So would about any other small business owner. Or any large business owner. The numbers from Mr. Higgins match about a 7% per year raise when you account for turnover.

The poster above calculated a 6.8% per year raise for D203 which is unsustainable in almost any economic climate. Yes, teachers were once underpaid. Now they are not on average. D203 teachers now make significantly more than the state average. This is an even larger gap for the grade school teachers.

FYI, I supply health insurance and contribute to a 401(k).

How about some particulars? Like the teaching award I won. That's all you'll get.

Are family/close friends overpaid, too? Some are and some aren't. Plain and simple. The system does not allow differentiation.

e^(i*pi)

By e^*(i*pi) on March 7, 2009 9:15 PM
YASS: How many of you critics have actually spent any time in a classroom doing something other than being a student?

ANS: Me for one

What did you do? How about some particulars?

YASS: Any of you ever taught H.S. full time in the not too distant past?

ANS: Not me, but family/close friends do.

Are they overpaid, too?

YASS: Good teachers use the summer to prepare for the coming school year & improve themselves with continuing ed.

ANS: I couldn't agree more. How do propose we find out who is a good teacher?

what % of teachers in Naperville 203 are "good" teachers?

Are you also implying perhaps there is a difference between High School teaching responsibility and grade school teaching responsibilities? Say it isn't so. NUEA certainly doesn't think so. Or it does and uses comparative high school pay scales to crank up the pay scale across the board for the much more numerous grade school members. Do you think it is fair that a HS teacher doing all that work gets paid the same as a 1st grade teacher? I'd bet not. (If in a CUSD)

How much more is a high school teacher worth than a grade school teacher? How do you propose to differentiate based on experience? Are you proposing to eliminate all seniority--would the only option to a pay increase be going to a higher grade level? What about retention?

YASS: The right question to ask is what % of FULL TIME PROFESSIONAL people make that kind of money; folks with college degrees and beyond.

ANS: I do not know. Not sure it is the right question, though. Do you know the following? What % of professionals get the consistent raises of teachers with little to no risk of job loss for no additional responsibility? What % FTPs get bumps at the end of their career to give a bigger pension? What % of FTPs have employer paid health coverage? What % of FTPs have significantly less generous time off packages?

Since fair is important to you, wouldn't you want to make a fair comparison and compare professionals to professionals? I can think of plenty of corporations that offered incentives to induce people to retire. Because so much of private industry has mismanaged itself and walked away from its pension obligations--dumping them on the government in the process (and after raiding the funds 10-15 yrs ago, too)--that means that we should do the same thing to the teachers as well? Sounds like your gripe is with your employer, why take it out on the teachers?

(Yeah, the article is a bit lame and is selling something. It was written probably a year or two ago, but showed up on yahoo's hot articles before I could truly evaluate all the exact numbers.

go ahead, I'll wait...

My bad. I just found it interesting given the gripe above about >100K. Given more thought I would have left it off. The 5% quote is from the ad/article.)

yellow journalism has its merits.

BTW, the Diderot Euler encounter if it ever occured, likely did not take place exactly as many would have us believe. Too bad no one has proved Euler's purported claim, it would have saved us all a lot of grief.

To Southeast Side Dad March 7, 2009 4:35 PM

HE ASKS

"If it's (teaching) such "easy money" why don't you guys get your certificates and get in on the teaching?"

A REPLY

The same reason we would not take a job at McDonalds?

To all,

As Dan Denys has previously indicated, he has been in contact with Dave Zager regarding the salary issue. I have now joined that conversation and between the three of us the hope is there can be an exploration of the issue with some kind of joint statement, from Dan and myself, regarding the facts as they relate to teachers salaries and raises.

My expectation is we will post it here and I will post in on the "Q"

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

...."There are only two qualified MBA schools in Chicago (Northwestern and Chicago), for example....."

You mean THIS Northwestern???

Kellogg students go wild at Field
Post-party e-mail lists bad behavior

A party last month at the Field Museum for new students at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University turned into a drunken affair to remember—for some, at least.

In its wildest retelling, students threw things at Sue, the museum’s famous dinosaur fossil, though a museum spokeswoman denies that Sue was the target of drunken debauchery.

No matter what happened, the wild party, which about 700 people attended, has become an embarrassment for Kellogg.

News of the party leaked Thursday on a financial gossip Web site called Dealbreaker, which posted an e-mail from a Kellogg student leader sent last week to all students lecturing them about proper conduct.

Kellogg spokeswoman Megan Washburn confirmed that a small group of students misbehaved at the Sept. 26 student-sponsored event. She apologized for the conduct.

“It’s not the standard students hold themselves to at Kellogg,” she said.

Washburn would not describe the misconduct at the party. “The school is still investigating these infractions,” she said. “Courses of action against individual students haven’t been determined at this time.”

But she confirmed that an admonishing e-mail was sent to partygoers in which some of the alleged activity, including the Sue incident, was described, including:

•”Students were vomiting on themselves and on the Field Museum floors.”

•”Students were spitting at people.”

•”Students passed out in high-traffic areas.”

Museum spokeswoman Nancy O’Shea said neither the museum nor any exhibits were damaged during the party.

Funny you should mention what you did in your post below. I thought the exact same thing. Who appointed this doofus outfit QE203.ORG the purveyor of truth in candidates? Oh I forgot, Jacki Romberg was a founding member of QE203.ORG until her name mysteriously disappeared from the membership list online. Wonder why they removed all those names anyway?

{{{By Anonymous on March 8, 2009 12:09 PM

To:By Anonymous on March 7, 2009 11:13 PM

Did you notice a little "insiduous" thread in teh QE203 questionnaires?

I thought it was pretty obvious that the Q was using certain questions to see if there were any Taxpayer Ticket candidates!}}}}

For those interested in the question on costs associated with the proposed Nichols Library Deck (see the beginning of this thread), here is the response I received from City staff:

In response to your question regarding costs associated with parking decks, the cost may vary depending on the components of construction under consideration. You will see a range of costs from $27,500 to $40,000 per space depending on the costs considered for the Nichols Parking Deck. The low cost range is basically the cost of the parking deck. The middle range includes ancillary items such as streetscape. The highest cost includes total project costs such as land acquisition and design. A summary of this information is provided below:

Nichols Parking Deck – 501 spaces total

(1) Construction (Base parking deck): $27,547/space

(2) Total Construction (Includes facade upgrade, perimeter parkway landscape/streetscape, stormwater detention, public restrooms, security system, etc.): $37,727/space

(3) Total Cost (Total Construction + Engineering/Design, Land): $40,804

Note: These costs are based on the gross number of spaces in the deck, however would increase if the net number of spaces are being used for comparison purposes.

~Councilman Bob.

To:By Anonymous on March 7, 2009 11:13 PM

Did you notice a little "insiduous" thread in teh QE203 questionnaires?

I thought it was pretty obvious that the Q was using certain questions to see if there were any Taxpayer Ticket candidates!

To:By yet another south sider on March 7, 2009 7:39 PM

Clearly you have no concept of the hours that are worked by those making the magical $90k.

You talk of being in the office by 7:30, working to , gulp! 3:00, then adding 1 to 1 1/2 hours of conferences. Then, to further the torture, they must put some work into developing lesson plans during the summer.

Let us look at the numbers, shall we? Based on your data, this comes to approximatley 1148 hours of work PLUS whatever is done to prepare lesson plans in the summer. This is the 7 hours per day times the workdays in a partial year (ie non-summer)

I will make the proposal that a good instructor spends one work-day equivelent every 10 days on this. thus, we can add approx. 63 more hours, which is a 16% add-on factor.

Our new total is now 1211 hours.

D203 average pay is $75,000. (Sorry, Tom --- this is right from the most reliable source out there: http://iirc.niu.edu/District.aspx?source=About%20Educators&source2=Teacher%20Characteristics&districtID=19022203026&level=D)

That comes to a very generous (note I did NOT say unearned!) $62.00 per hour.

Let me NOW select a "hypothetical" 12 year accountant at a local corporation making $90k per year (includes bonus on the years we have them). I will add that on his own time he handles family issues, school events, marriage, and attended night school to get a Masters In Computer Science!

This person is considered highly-valuable, gets great reviews, and works for me. This person works an average work-week (year-round) of 68 hours, which comes to 3536 hours a year. I could take 80 hours off of that for vacation, though I gave the teacher, above, the full 52 weeks. Thus, the hours drop to 3456 for the full year.

This highly-regarded person is getting about $26 per hour on a good year. I will also add that this is a typical, average story for a professional non-teacher making anywhere from $68k to $125K per year.

Tell us again how lousy teachers have it in D203, okay?

I enjoy the irony of the Sun continuing to tell us that the "new, improved Sun" will be all about the readers, and yet it seems to be all about putting giant pictures of the editors in the paper. That says to me that the paper is really all about you and your perspective on Naperville and making sure we know who's in charge over there. And like another person posted, the offices aren't even in Naperville any more. We want words and photos about the community, not giant heads on page 1 (precious story-telling space) and page 2, where community columnists only get little mug shots. Seriously, think about it.

By Naperville Sun editors on March 7, 2009 11:17 AM
Bubo, your last post was the 25,000th post in the history of this blog. No, you don't win anything, but it's a milestone from us and I think it's good to see the community so involved in discussing the issues, even if that particular post was a joke.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

That is pretty impressive. But if all posts were posted you would have been easily over 30,000.

I had no less than a hundred not posted the last 3.5 years.

Keep up the good work. Post everything but libel and pornograhy.

Let people truly express themselves in a free and uncensored manner.

Give each candidate his own thread till election time so we can communicate with them. That will get you to 50,000. Seriously!I still don't know the name of one single new candidate due to lack of coverage by the Naperville Sun, Daily Herald or Chicago Tribune. Why have elections? Do you want us to shoot darts when we enter the election booth? I hope they have the darts ready to fire.

No one is reading the print edition, so let us roll with the BLOG EDITION. Sooner better than later.

When is the election by the way? First Tuesday of April???

Correction

I was off a year in my previous post. The District is now projecting a deficit in the 2011-2012 budget year, not the 2010-2011 as I indicated above.

Here are the projected deficit amounts.

2011-2012 $1.4 million
2012-2013 $5.4 million
2013-2014 $10.3 million

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

JPQ asked:

By "step increase" I assume we are talking about an increase based on years of experience, is that correct? If so, do 203 teachers get such an increase every year?

ANS:
3 parts to the pay raise:

1) Year-to-Year increase in the pay scale sheet. Everyone gets this. Best seen on the first link below.

2) Increase in pay based on seniority. Same column, down to next row. Can be seen on either link. Everyone gets this with the exceptions listed above and very very long tenured teachers. The exceptions come in if someone who has been teaching 14 years did not get even 12 hours of credit. 16 years without getting 24 hours of credit. Or 18 years without getting 36 hours (see contract). That's putting the screws to them to take additional classes. These are in addition to the CEUs or CPDUs every teacher must have by the state.

3) Increase based on additional classes and additional "degrees". Across to next column. See also #2.

2 links to pay scales.

Additional classes are very good investments in pay raise for the teachers. There is little to no data showing they actually help anyone be a better teacher.

2005 agreement

Present pay scale

For those visual learners: I think of the pay scale sheets being stacked on top of each other. Everyone every year gets to move up to the next sheet (raise), gets to move a row down (raise), and sometimes gets to slide over a column (raise)...and if I may quote our esteemed Mr. Higgins..."Zowie!"

Nobody ever slides back. When Mr. Higgins was miscalculating average teacher raise to be 3.52%, he essentially compared someone on a sheet in 1998 to a person with LESS experience in 2008. Up ten sheets, about the same column, BACK 3 rows.

Hope that helps. This does not include additional pay for extra work. The pay scales do not have end-of-career bumps. These are dealt with separately as far as I know.

e^(i*pi)

Anonymous,

The district is projecting that if nothing is done the 2010-2011 budget will not be in balance, meaning they will start running a budget deficit, however they project they will have sufficient reserves such that the district will not itself go into deficit till 2013-2014 (after it runs through it's reserves). Previously that was projected out to 2017. And lets realize the district is looking at what they can do to push out both dates by cost cutting.

Dr. Leis and Dave Zager did a brief video discussing the issue that you can watch here:
http://www.nctv17.com/videos/budgetbriefing.mov

My appologies for our lateness posting the questionnaires. We have all ten but are trying to get the website up on a new platform. We will get them up next week one way or another.

John Q,

Sorry, I just saw your question.

A step raise is based on years experience. The lane increase is for changes in educational attainment. Does everyone get a step raise for every year? For the most part yes it looks that way, but also it looks like you top out at lower levels of educational attainment starting at year 14-BA 16-BA12 18-BA24.

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

Myself and several others are working on starting a charter school in Naperville District 203. I hope the community will support us. As you know we have great schools in Naperville and we are looking forward to attracting the best and brightest of 203's Teachers and Students.

Anonymous,

The average salary in 2000 for D203 teachers was $56,015. In 2007 it was $72,071 That’s an increase of approximately 3.65% per year. You can verify this by going to the ISBE website and looking up the two years, and calculating the percentage increase.

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

Mr. Higgins, I notice on your QE203.org questionnaire (still waiting for the responses to be posted, you said March 2nd and nothing yet)that one of your questions asks what a board member would recommend cutting if we hit deficit spending by 2010-11. Yet in a previous post you stated, "oh were in great shape financially, deficit spending was projected to hit around 2017 or so but now it looks like 2014." I predicted the district will come back sooner than 2014 looking for another operational bond issue and you pooh poohed me. So which is it 2017, 2014 or 2010? You really can't have it three ways dude.

I just love how these teachers come on here and whine that the private sector has it SO much better than they do. When I ask the OBVIOUS question, "then why don't you leave teaching and take one of the stupendous private sector jobs?" They usually don't respond. Then they turn around and say, "well if teaching is such a great cush job why don't you go into teaching?" I then remind them (as the Chicago Tribune just pointed out) that there is a massive glut of teachers in Illinois and with the economy tanking a ton of people are leaving the private sector and trying to get into teaching! Hence the likelihood of me even getting a job in District 203 is slim to none. Every administrator I have spoken to in 203 will confirm they receive at LEAST 200 resumes for every opening. It would be virtual economic suicide for me to leave the private sector and attempt to get a public teaching job.

I think right about now most teachers realize they have great job security, benefits, and pensions. After they have seen what has happened to private sector jobs, benefits, IRA's and 401k's I highly doubt ANY teacher would trade jobs with me. The simple fact of the matter is 6.8% annual pay raises are not sustainable. That means payroll will double about every 10 years. If you don't believe me I will get you the numbers and post them in a pdf file shortly. Higgins will never show you these numbers. No teacher or administrator likes to see these numbers because it ruins their lie that they are underpaid.

My wife is a teacher. She can tell you stories of how many lousy teachers are in her school but they can't be fired due to tenure. My wife is a great teacher but she is not compensated on her merits, only on seniority. It is very demoralizing for her to witness such a lousy system. She has several teachers with her that feel the same way.

I have nothing against teachers, but I do against the NEA and the local unions. They have ruined teaching and caused the public to have great distrust of their profession. That is a sad fact.

Capitalism Works!

Whether Pres. Obama likes it or not, market capitalism is at work, builders are not building because of over-supply and people that actually qualify for mortgages are buying houses now that the bubble is popping and prices are dropping. The Market is self correcting.

OBAMA ARE YOU LISTENING??????
==========================

Bubo, there was never any doubt that the market would eventually correct itself. The TARP and stimulus bills were initiated because both W., Obama and their administrations believed the consequences of allowing it to correct itself this time would be far too damaging, not that it never would. I'm sure you can appreciate the difference.

YASS: How many of you critics have actually spent any time in a classroom doing something other than being a student?

ANS: Me for one

YASS: Any of you ever taught H.S. full time in the not too distant past?

ANS: Not me, but family/close friends do.

YASS: Good teachers use the summer to prepare for the coming school year & improve themselves with continuing ed.

ANS: I couldn't agree more. How do propose we find out who is a good teacher? If you have a way that would work with the union to separate yourself, I'd love to hear it. In the meantime, all you great teachers get lumped with the others. You are required to have some continuing ed. right, just like many licensed professions in the state.

Are you also implying perhaps there is a difference between High School teaching responsibility and grade school teaching responsibilities? Say it isn't so. NUEA certainly doesn't think so. Or it does and uses comparative high school pay scales to crank up the pay scale across the board for the much more numerous grade school members. Do you think it is fair that a HS teacher doing all that work gets paid the same as a 1st grade teacher? I'd bet not. (If in a CUSD)

YASS: The right question to ask is what % of FULL TIME PROFESSIONAL people make that kind of money; folks with college degrees and beyond.

ANS: I do not know. Not sure it is the right question, though. Do you know the following? What % of professionals get the consistent raises of teachers with little to no risk of job loss for no additional responsibility? What % FTPs get bumps at the end of their career to give a bigger pension? What % of FTPs have employer paid health coverage? What % of FTPs have significantly less generous time off packages?

(Yeah, the article is a bit lame and is selling something. It was written probably a year or two ago, but showed up on yahoo's hot articles before I could truly evaluate all the exact numbers. My bad. I just found it interesting given the gripe above about >100K. Given more thought I would have left it off. The 5% quote is from the ad/article.)

e^(i*pi)

How many of you critics have actually spent any time in a classroom doing something other than being a student? Any of you ever taught H.S. full time in the not too distant past? You ought to try it sometime for a week or two; judging from the time some of you spend on these blogs, it looks like you have the time.

How many of you are in the office at 7:00-7:30AM in the morning and work straight through to 3PM--ON YOU FEET, then have conferences for another hour and 1/2 or more, and then take a briefcase full of papers home to read and evaluate, 4 or 5 days out of 5. And whatever doesn't get done during the week gets done between Fri eve and Sun, in-between planning the next weeks meetings & trips. Yeah, I know there are some of you who work this hard every week, but I also know that you are bringing home more than 40-90K/year, a lot more; and you don't have your neighbors anonymously complaining about you in the blogs that you aren't working hard enough.

Good teachers use the summer to prepare for the coming school year & improve themselves with continuing ed.

Euler man: BTW. what's minimum wage? $7.75/hr, 8X that is not $50. So, what you are saying is that 8X minimum is too much. Ok, let's all of us in the upper 5% take voluntary pay cuts to bring us down to a more reasonable multipler, like say 4X or 3X, that's in the middle; you and Dan Anonymous go first, I'll follow your lead.

The right question to ask is what % of FULL TIME PROFESSIONAL people make that kind of money; folks with college degrees and beyond. Got that number? Of course, if you include every burger flipper and part time worker in the count you are going to get a figure like 5% (if indeed that is true--got a reference for that #?).

Your 8X link also doesn't say what those salaries become with 10, 15, 20, etc on the job...

By Bubo on March 7, 2009 11:06 AM

If Foreclosures are dropping why are Pres. Obama, Reed and Pelosi screaming crisis, depression, crisis, depression.

Just another attempt to create panic to get their income redistribution plans passed?
==================================

Sure. They took a page out of W's playbook. That's how he got the TARP bill passed!

PS. The onion site was a hoot!!!

Great timing for this article.

"Fifty-dollar-an-hour careers net eight times the federal minimum wage. Only five percent of Americans command this kind of money."

http://education.yahoo.net/degrees/articles/featured_fifty_dollar_an_hour_earning_power.html

Yes, this seems to be selling online degrees, but the data is interesting.

hmmmm....

e^(i*pi)

Quick answer Southeast Side -- depends, but certainly not in education. If you can point me to a study of incremental value of extra years of experience beyond 10 and MA in the classroom, I'd love to see it.

quick web search

Median Salary of an Electrical Engineer with an M.S. degree -- $71000 (starting salary overall EE (MS or not) = $55000 )

Mean Salary of D203 grade school teachers -- about $75000
(starting salary D203 = about $43000)

Where are you going with this? Nowhere productive.

e^(i*pi)

Do I get anything for my other 24,000 posts?

Bubo

...............................
By Naperville Sun editorsAuthor Profile Page on March 7, 2009 11:17 AM

Bubo, your last post was the 25,000th post in the history of this blog. No, you don't win anything, but it's a milestone from us and I think it's good to see the community so involved in discussing the issues, even if that particular post was a joke.

Do you think that a professional with a Master's degree or more and 25 years of experience is somehow NOT worth $100K? Go to any other profession and you will find that salary is probably a bit low. Factor in the long vacation for teachers and it all works out.

If you guys think teachers are so overpaid, why do you continue to sell vaccine, and collect huge fees to make bond deals where "The schools got almost nothing" (according to Bloomberg - http://www.bloomberg.com/news/marketsmag/broken_promises5.html ), and whatever else crackpots do for a living? - If it's such "easy money" why don't you guys get your certificates and get in on the teaching?

I hope someone takes my pdf file to the home and school meeting of the board candidates and confronts Romberg and Crotty about these continuous outrageous pay raises they say aren't happening.

Can someone print up some ZOWIE! campaign buttons for the school board election and the inevitable contract dispute. I really like that slogan.

e^(i*pi)

If you need to laugh.

Congressman Offers Preemptive Apology For Extramarital Affair

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/congressman_offers_preemptive?utm_source=nav

If Foreclosures are dropping why are Pres. Obama, Reed and Pelosi screaming crisis, depression, crisis, depression.

Just another attempt to create panic to get their income redistribution plans passed?

====================================================

USA Today

March 6, 2009

Good news: Foreclosures down 10%; state-by-state chart

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/housing/2009-02-11-decline-housing-foreclosure_N.htm

MORE INCOME REDISTRIBUTION BY PRES. OBAMA

This looks like one of those Red vs. Blue election maps.

The foreclosures are predominantly in areas controlled by the Democrats. I'm in shock.

The housing bailout scheme is another income redistribution scheme to transfer wealth to Democrats. I'm further in shock.

The House just passed a Bill to re-make loans to people for houses they can't afford with money they don't have, assuming anything on the loan was true in the first place.

==============================================

USA Today
March 6, 2009

Most foreclosures pack into a few counties

Foreclosures by County
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/housing/2009-03-05-foreclosure_N.htm?imw=Y

Foreclosures by State
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/housing/2009-02-18-foreclosures-in-2008_N.htm

Look at the graphs on left bar
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-02-18-is-foreclosure-plan-fair_N.htm

============================================
Capitalism Works!

Whether Pres. Obama likes it or not, market capitalism is at work, builders are not building because of over-supply and people that actually qualify for mortgages are buying houses now that the bubble is popping and prices are dropping. The Market is self correcting.

OBAMA ARE YOU LISTENING??????

........................................................................................................................
USA Today

Housing starts at record lows; mortgage applications jump

Updated 2/18/2009 1:26 PM

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2009-02-18-housing-starts_N.htm

"The Mortgage Bankers Association said its seasonally adjusted index of mortgage application activity jumped 45.7% to 875.3 the week ended Feb. 13. It was the highest reading since Jan. 16, and coincided with a 0.2 percentage point drop in average 30-year mortgage rates to 4.99%, the MBA said."

HIGGINS SAYS.....

"If starting salary is $41,969. and a teacher receives 7% annual raises, at 20 years the salary is $151,782. At 25 years it's $212,882. And at 30 years it's $298.578. Zowie! That, of course, is not the case, not even close. That's why I have problems with these 7%-9% figures being tossed around for raises."

SO THE RAISES ARE NOT 7 TO 9 %

The ARE!!!!! The very problem that he says does not exist has been the cause of the major tax increases for the last ten years. More scary, they will only get worst. Higher tax increases in the future.

HE SAYS THAT IS NOT TRUE

Desny gave the numbers. Look at the actual numbers posted at 7:44 PM---6.8%!!!!! The TRS assumes 7%. Let's see what Zager says.

WHAT SHOULD BE DONE

New contracts should be set so salary increases are in line with the rest of the economy. Otherwise, taxpayers will be priced out of their houses.

Since these salary increases are a surprise to QE203, they should revisit their positions. Higgins sounds as surprised by these salaries as Desny and Davitt. Even MORE SURPRISED. It will be interesting to see how HIGGINS spins this discovery.

ZOWIE!!!!!!!

To all,

I have a response from Dave Zager already. I am waiting for a clarification on one issue and will confirm back to him the final info.

I want people to know info is coming (that is what Higgins has been pushing), but want to be fair to Mr. Zager.

Dan

Oh man Higgins, is getting owned!! You really think a teacher started at $41,000 20 years ago!!! I did some work today. Check out my PDF file. I took all teachers from District 203 and input their salaries from 2007 to 2008 (see attached PDF file) and I threw out teachers that were on the list in 2007 but not 2008 (either retired or left) and I threw out those that were on the list in 2008 but not in 2007 (new hires, etc.) Of about 1450 teachers I was left with about 1250. Oh and I threw out all teachers that had increases of salary over 30% or decreases over 30%(you know took maternity leave etc.). So all in all I have a great sample of the VAST majority of teachers and their ONE year pay increases. Guess what, the increase in total salary for the district from 2007 to 2008 was 6.8%. The numbers don't lie. Huge pay increases keep on occurring yet this lousy school board, the unions, Higgins, etc. keep trying to tell you the increase was only 3.5% give or take. That is a lie!!!

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=d890db69496518b51f8e0fff488e27e0ab1762d2f2d7df5cce018c8114394287

ZOWIE!!! You better believe it.

Let's investigate the 120K per year PE teacher.

In a cell in Excel place: +120000/Power(1.07,22)

This will yield the starting salary of someone who is making 120K per year, 22 years of experience and has had a 7% per year raise.

Is it unreasonable to think that 22 years ago, the starting salary (0 years, BA) was $27,085? My gut tells me that is probably a little HIGH, so that the average increase over that time was greater than 7% if he started at (0,BA). Or maybe this person started a little higher on the scale so his starting salary was actually $27,085.

If we try a 3.52% per year raise it would yield the ridiculous starting salary 22 years ago of 120000/POWER(1.0352,22) = $56,059.

ZOWIE! (read: Zowie factorial)

e^(i*pi)

This quote from Thom is "priceless".

"If starting salary is $41,969. and a teacher receives 7% annual raises, at 20 years the salary is $151,782. At 25 years it's $212,882. And at 30 years it's $298.578. Zowie! That, of course, is not the case, not even close. That's why I have problems with these 7%-9% figures being tossed around for raises."

ALL OF US AGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THAT IS THE PATH WE ARE ON RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thom, welcome to the taxpayer ticket!!!!!!!

I know Thom will not understand the following, but I post this for the rest of you that will. The following is an extract of the Illinois Teachers Retirement System actuarial assumptions

Actuarial Assumptions:
Investment Rate of Return: 8.5%
Projected Salary Increases: 6.0% – 11.1% composite approximates 7.0%
Includes Inflation at: 3.5%
Cost-of-Living Adjustments: 3.0%

NOTE SALARY--6.0% TO 11.1%, COMPOSITE 7.0%.

Thom, we are all going to get "ZOWIED". First with our property taxes, then with the pension costs.

Mike Davitt has been saying this for years. We're glad you are on our side.

ZOWIE!!!!!!!!!!

Tired of Thom's bullying, here is a copy of the e-mail sent to Dave Zager to clarify this matter.

To: Dave Zager

From: Dan D.

cc: Thom Higgins

Sent: Fri 3/6/2009 4:00 PM

Dave,

I hope all is going well for you.

Thom Higgins is agitating for a meeting with you to clarify an issue that follows. This is such a simple point that I think you can respond by e-mail and save everyone time, including you and me.

First Issue

A typical teacher's salary increase consists of five components:

1. Step increase for extra year of service

Example: MA9 in FY2007 to MA10 in FY2007

$59,002 to $60,595.......2.7%

2. Contract increase from Board

Example: MA10 in FY2007 to MA10 in FY2008

$60,595 to $62,595......3.30%

3. Educational increase (lane change)

Example: MA10 in FY2008 to MA+12 10 in FY2008

$62,595 to $64,714......3.39%

4. Additional stipends. This depends on what additional responsibilities a teacher takes in the District. Lunch room supervision, summer school, coaching, activity

5. Retirement increases

Back in 2008, teachers received 20% salary increases in the last three years of service. Now they receive 6% increases in the last 8 to ten years? Again, we have not considered this item.

In summary, this typical teacher would get an increase of 6.09% if no additional education was pursued. If the teacher took 12 credit hours (three to four classes), the salary could increase by 9.68%.

In various research, the Champion web site has shown average increases of 7% for returning teachers for the last ten years, in line with this example. There are also issues of retirement bonuses and other salary increases that we have not addressed.

Second Issue

Mr. Higgins has stated that a typical teacher's salary has increased by 3.52%. Instead, this number compared to a 6 to 9% increase based on the analysis above reflects reductions to the benefit of the taxpayers for teachers that retire and are replaced with teachers at significantly lower salaries. This 3.52% has never represented a specific teacher's salary increase year over year.

We are using the fiscal year 2007 to 2008 numbers since these are the most recent items posted on your web site. Also, one other factual piece of information. What is the projected teacher salary increase that is incorporated in the financial projections?

We recognize there are many policy matters, but it would be useful to understand where the numbers currently stand based on existing contracts that end in 2010, just before property taxes decline.

Dan Denys

You don’t have to look too far to find a Silver Lining in the hard economic times. Have you been out to the retail stores lately? Many of stores are offering great incentives to buy and manufacturers have stepped up with big rebates. Your dollar is going a lot farther these days and consumers are in the driver’s seat. You don’t have to look much farther than a local appliance store here in the Chicago market to see the fantastic value being offered to the consumer. Grants Appliances Electronics and More is giving every customer who purchases any appliance or TV $399 or more a $500 Gas or Grocery Rebate Certificate! That’s $500 in Gas or Groceries for just a minimum spend of $399! Many purchases even come with manufacturer rebates on top of this incredible deal. So, next time your feeling overwhelmed by all the news about the tough economy remember, there’s always a Silver Lining to every cloud.

Bubo,

Briefly, I'm really busy today, but I wanted to respond to you a bit.

If starting salary is $41,969. and a teacher receives 7% annual raises, at 20 years the salary is $151,782. At 25 years it's $212,882. And at 30 years it's $298.578. Zowie! That, of course, is not the case, not even close. That's why I have problems with these 7%-9% figures being tossed around for raises.

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

Has anyone else noticed that as soon as Thom Higgins is challenged with a question on his data that he can't answer, he tries to hide behind Dave Zager?

Bubo:

Just a thought. Do you think some companies might be using the recession as an excuse to trim work forces, institute pay cuts, reduce medical coverage and eliminate matching retirement contributions? Being the cynic that I am, I think it is possible that some companies are hurting, but maybe not to the extent that makes all this necessary. They just see an opportunity to screw their employees and take the difference as more profit. My guess is even when the economy recovers, benefits like matching 401k contributions and medical coverage will not be reinstated. And salaries will remain permanently reset at the lower figure, taking workers years to recover these gains.

In the early 90s, I worked for a medical company that would nickel and dime it's ancillary workers to death. These workers would go year after year with either no raises or 1-2% at best as the company would always plead poverty when these workers wanted better pay or benefits. But when there was a doctor or other medical professional the company wanted to recruit, the bank account was bottomless. I know, because the contracts would come across my desk and I would be astounded at the pay and perks some of these people got. Whatever they wanted, no matter how outrageous, they got. Yet the company wouldn't give an inch for secretaries, lab techs or other medical workers lower down on the pay scale. Year after year, the administrators would do an excellent job convincing them that the company was barely making ends meet and that they were lucky to still have jobs. I haven't trusted anyone in management since.

So from this frame of reference, I can't help but suspect this is going on elsewhere, especially with a serious recession as a handy excuse. Some of these companies may not need to cut pay and benefits to the extent they have. They just see the opportunity and are taking it.

Question for Thom, Dan, et. al.:

By "step increase" I assume we are talking about an increase based on years of experience, is that correct? If so, do 203 teachers get such an increase every year?

Thanks.

-JQP

All,

Well it's really interesting that I have no takers to meet with Dave Zager. I'm perfectly willing to sit down and have my ideas challenged by someone who knows this cold. Why aren't you?

To PS

All I can say is I find it fascinating that you seem to have Dan Denys writing style down perfectly. Perhaps you're actually twins separated at birth.

To TB

Yup.

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

St Louis Today

Could St. Louis (and every city) lose its Catholic hospitals under new federal abortion legislation?

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/religion/story/E6E47067257DB95E862575710014DD57?OpenDocument

The legislation has some Roman Catholic bishops threatening to shutter the country's 624 Catholic hospitals — including 11 in the Archdiocese of St. Louis — rather than comply.

Just FYI, but a 3.52% raise compounded over the ten years Thom is talking about is a 36.5% raise (total for year 1 to year 10).

We should all be so lucky.

Thom,

My wife's company (4000 employees) just completed laying off 10% of the workers, zero percent pay raises and cuts in benefits and a statement from management that they will have to see how things are in six months. 50% of her 401 K retirement savings has been vaporized, half in the last 45 days.

A good friend's company, just laid-off 20% of the workers, gave everyone else 10% pay cuts, cut the medical plan way down, eliminated 401K matching and made a statement that they will have to see where things are this summer. His wife's company just laid her off.

I was shopping in Naperville the last few days, I patronize the little guys, and everyone told me the same story. Business has dried up, they won't be able to make the rent in the now visible future.

Do you think the teachers should get their usual 7% compounded pay raises and the usual 14% retirement kicker? Do you think our tax bills should double every 7 years to support this?

Nice try Thom. For all I know, PS could be your partner Peter Shulman. I think he knows 7th grade math. I am amazed on the number of other people who are raising even more in depth questions, good for transparency.

Look, you know that Zager and 203 could address this issue. Instead of people like PS having to go to the Champion.org to get public teacher salaries such as Joan Bensen, 203 could publish the salary components of each teacher annually with a comparison to the previous year. The salary could be broken down to initial base, step increase, lane increase (more education), and extra duty. The schedule could show the reasons a teachers salary increased from the previous year.

You and I are still waiting to see if Dave can do that. And if the District will publish the information. Full transparency would make information clearer. Even for you.

I do recall from our campaign that one of our people went back to 1999 (whenever Champion had the info direct from the Illinois State Board of Education who gets the info from Dave) and listed a trend for teachers that were there for the six to eight year period. The "average" for these teachers was 7 to 9 %. It did not make sense at the time since salary increases were always reported to be 5%. Now we know that the education and retirement increases add to the cost.

The average salary increase is a totally different concept. But if Zager wants to post that 3.5% you are throwing around here represents the total increases for existing teachers on a year over year basis, let him do it. I think the only person who is confused is yourself, nobody else on this blog. You should do your homework rather than these bullying calls for meetings that waste not only adminstirator's time, but the posters as well.

Dan Densy is not the only person in Naperville. I am insulted by your arrogance.

I do not know about e^(i*pi), but why waste a valuable administrators time because somebody (HIGGINS) does not understand 7th Grade Math?

Why don't you share this with Zager and have him post his answer here. Just like Councilman Bob.

Mr. Higgins,

Why would we have to make a presentation to anyone? We already did. Right here in this blog. Ask him. Really. Show him what we wrote. Ask him where we are wrong. Post it.

If you are using average salary to calculate your number, then you are wrong about the average raise. Not up for debate. If you have another data, please point us to it.

As I stated above, the other flaw you are using is that the average teacher has changed. If we accept that the raise in average teacher salary = average teacher raise (which is very wrong), you are still not comparing apples to apples. Since the average teacher now has 12 years of experience instead of 15, you'd have to add in an additional raise to the number you found. ** That would be about an extra .75% per year on top of your number. Now factor in the help that a retired teacher being replaced by a new teacher gives to the average teacher salary and the numbers really start shifting higher. Not 9%. That is not correct. But 3.52%, even when in bold, is not close.

I am finally beginning to see your personal qe203.org motivation. You flat out do not understand the numbers.

e^(i*pi)

** Consider the teacher pay scales being stacked on top of each other. Start in 1998 with a teacher who has 15 years experience and half way between a MA and BA (actually .46MA and .54 BA then and .54MA/.46BA now). Now move straight up to 2008. That would be a truer comparison in your (wrong) method. Then figure out the % raise from 12years to 15years and add that in (approx divided by 10, but better = (15Y/12Y)^(1/10) - 1) )

For e^(i*pi) and Dan Denys (aka PS)

Gentlemen, I know you are having great fun here but as we all want to know the truth allow me to offer the following:

Either, or both, of you make an appointment with Dave Zager to discuss this matter. I will arrange my schedule to fit yours. We both make our case with whatever documentation we choose and Dave tells us who's correct. We then post the results of that discussion here in the blog.

Do we have an agreement gentlemen?

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

A change of subject.... What kind of a stupid, no brain driver runs into the rear-end of a stopped naperville police car, or any stopped vehicle for that fact. A police car that had its FULL emergency lights on and was at the time writting a ticket to another stupid driver speeding thru a construction area. There is a law on the books called SCOTTS LAW. The law is named after a firefighter killed by a stupid driver speeding thru an accident site. SLOW DOWN !!! Another persons life is not worth you getting somewhere 2 mins faster.

I think the taxpayer ticket had a comparison of specific teachers for the last 6 years. It was confusing since salaries were going up at 8% rather than 5.2%.

Now we are getting the right info.

If Higgins does not understand this concept after the very thorough explanation by e^(i*pi), I think he should repeat 7th grade math. Maybe a 203 education might work.

Mr. Higgins,

Unless you have EACH teacher's salary with their individual yearly increase, you cannot perform an average salary increase (note this is different from the increase in average salary -- that is where I believe you make your mistake). Average teacher salary means nothing in terms of what the average raise is. Period. Hard Stop. No other arguing available to you.

Example. And I will type slowly.

Two teachers in the district.

2008 $40000 $80000 Avg $60000
2009 $41600 $83200 Avg $62400 4% raise in average

Teacher 2 retires. Replaced by new teacher.

2010 $41000 (new teacher) $43264 Avg $42132

HUGE drop in average teacher salary BUT still a 4% average raise since only one teacher got a raise.

This small example shows why you cannot use average teacher salary to calculate average teacher raise. No cherry picking of data. This is a simple mathematical fact.

If you are using average teacher salary for raises, then please stop. If there is some other data you are using, please share.

I'll keep looking for the data you are using.

On another note, D203 pays about 20% above the what the 75th percentile school pays in starting salary. That includes all the high school districts, so at the grade school level, we're close to the top. Yes, D203 is below the max, but WAY above the 75th percentile pay for new teachers.

e^(i*pi)

Thom must not be a good liberal since he has to work!!!!

HIGGINS REPEATS HIS FAILED ARGUMENT

Teachers only got 3.52% increase. NO WAY.

EXPLAIN IT AGAIN FOR THOMY BOY

The 3.52% is the TOTAL year over year salary increase. The reason this number is less than 9% that you would expect is because higher paid teachers who retire are replaced by teachers making less money with less experience. If a teacher making $120,000 retires, they hire a new teacher for $45,000. The $75,000 in savings offsets the increases for teachers who stay another year of between 6 and 9%.

Take the example of Joan Benson from the ISBE records.

Year|salary|increase from previous year

2008|64,828|4.7%
2007|61,925|7.44%
2006|57,635|9.54%
2005|52,616|6.31%
2004|49,491|17.8%
2003|42,008|11.0%
2002|37,852|9.3%
2001|34,630|5.8%

These numbers look alot higher than 3.52%. Of course they do, Thom is netting out the benefits of higher paid teachers being replaced by lower paid teachers.

HIGGINS DOES NOT SEEM TO UNDERSTAND

Can't help that. Ignorance is just as bad as dishonesty. You cannot rely on such people. Maybe Peter Shulman, John Brubaker or Jean McCollum could explain it to him. We would hate to waste Dave Zager's time.

DOESN'T SEEM TO HELP

His comments reflect a common union argument for higher salaries. Higher salaries mean higher taxes. Why are teachers ashamed of their increases? Why do they hide them?

WHAT ABOUT THE GREAT RESEARCH OF QE203?

If this reflects "quality", find another site. Seems more of spewing of teachers union propaganda--we do not need more of that!!!!!! It's more shallow than simply bullying people who disagree with Higgins.

All,
I’ve a busy day today, so briefly;

You all are trying to make an argument that teachers get paid too much and receive exorbant raises. You can try to cherry pick data to prove your point and such, but, once again, after all is said and done:

The average increase for ALL TEACHERS , including all retirement bumps and extra stipends over 10 years is

3.52% annually.

You can howl at the moon and write a million words, but in the end, that’s how much the average teachers salary has increased from 1998 to 2008, and because it is such a long period the differences in tenure and education evens itself out.

I understand it really messes up your message, but, it is what it is, and the ISBE data verifies it. If you want to argue differently, may I gently suggest you make an appointment with Dave Zager and he can help you understand it better.

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

To: By Conservative Taxpayer on March 5, 2009 11:44 AM

The real reason liberals don't need high paying jobs is that since they don't pay any taxes, they can afford to make approx. 40% less than the rest of us and still be flush.

Even here in Chicago, you have Rahm "TheMan"ual avoiding property taxes on his house by registering it as an asset of a fake trust!

Does a salary system make sense when it gives a grade school PE teacher $120,00 per year?

Does a salary structure make sense when it gives a 1st grade teacher who writes "Good!" "Neat!" "Wow!" when grading papers over $100,00 per year?

Does a salary structure make sense when it gives the average 5th grade teacher over $100,000 at the school where my youngest child went last year?

This is insanity.

Forget the raise argument. Forget the pension argument. Forget the hourly wage comparison. Forget all of that. Does it make any sense to be paying the wages D203 is paying? D203 has about the highest average grade school salary in the state. How many of the D203 teachers are looking for jobs elsewhere for better pay or better conditions? As close to zero as I could imagine. How many teachers are pounding at the doors to come teach here. Several gazillion. I'm no economics major, but I remember reading something somewhere about supply and demand.

Okay, now to the raise issue.

7% raise for a long-tenured teacher. Why? What additional value is brought in by that teacher at that point? Where is this person going to go?

The 3.52% you quote is somewhat interesting but has nothing to do with individual teacher average raises in that time. Nothing. It is the increase in average teacher salary.

The average teacher in D203 has 3 years less experience than 10 years ago. In D203, the average teacher is LESS likely to hold a masters now than 10 years ago. How does that factor into your (mostly meaningless) number? If someone retires and is replaced by a new teacher, the average salary might go down. That does not mean that the average teacher raise is negative.

I'm sure you can do better.

Oh, and the MA bump. We all can see what a hardship it is to get an advanced degree in education from the trials and tribulations our new esteemed Dr. Mitrovich went through. MA has nothing to do with more knowledge of the material being presented. Has anyone shown that an MA helps someone be a better teacher? It seems like it is a mark of taking more classes. Taking educational classes takes time and time is already factored into the salary schedule bump.

e^(i*pi)

Why would Rush want to be President? He would have to take a $29.6 MILLION paycut.

Why would he want such a piker's job? That is the problem. The best liberals, for the most part, can't get a high paying job, government is a great option for them. Successful people stay out of the way and make money and support their charities and people.

The LIBERALS get inflamed by this outcome. Why? Because they haven't succeeded in destroying successful conservatives. Look at Al Frankin, nobody wanted to listen to him when he tried to compete with Rush.

The step after trying to tax us to death might be physical violence. What is to stop poor people motivated by liberals to begin invading our neighborhoods and taking our possessions? We should think about a DuPage Army to protect our borders.

Since there is no king to execute, the wealthy become the next target. If I were Rush, I would have a security force more significant than the Secret Service. The Obama economic policies will not be enough to destroy the wealthy, so direct violence is the only other alternative for LIBERALS to get even with the successful.

JQP

You tuned in late.

Rahmbo is taking positions way outside of mine, then trying to associate me with his statements and sources. Its a way of trying to make me look extreme. He's probably still on the campaign mailing list for Obama and getting the tactics for discrediting your opposition.

In return, I pretend to agree with Rahmbo as a way of laughing back at him.

Do you think the borrowing and spending on social programs is going to save us?

to: By Thom Higgins on March 5, 2009 12:47 AM

So you are saying that PS's numbers are correct!

Bubo and Rambo,

Why are you talking about 2012? If you guys are right, the following will happen within the next 3 1/2 years: Rush will choke to death on a chicken wing; Sarah Palin will perish in a mysterious snow-mobile accident; and Joe the Plumber will "drown" while on a routine leaky faucet call.

-JQP

Radio interview of highly respected Jim Rogers

04 Mar 2008

Jim Rogers: expect social unrest in the US

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtCMApiRxXU

What George Soros' partner has to say:

London Telegraph

Mar 4, 2009

Barack Obama and Gordon Brown recession policies 'ludicrous, insane'

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/gerald_warner/blog/2009/03/04/barack_obama_and_gordon_brown_recession_policies_ludicrous_insane

By the time Gordon Brown rose to claim his long-coveted opportunity to cure the insomnia problems of members of the US Congress, his parade had already been not so much rained as deluged upon by Jim Rogers, the investment guru. He told Channel 4 News that the prescriptions being followed by Barack Obama and Gordon Brown to counter the financial crisis were "ludicrous, insane".

"The idea that you can solve a problem of too much debt and too much consumption and too much borrowing by more borrowing and more consumption and more debt, to my mind, is ludicrous, insane," said Rogers.

If my taxes go up one red cent, I will be at the assessor’s office demanding a reduction in my taxes that reflects the same drop as the value of my property. Anyone want to join me at the assessor’s office?

Forgot one point

HIGGINS SAYS....

"The range looks to be 3.8% total raise on the bottom (first year teacher with a BA) to 7.0% on the top (A masters54 with 22 years experience)."

HUH?!?!?!?

In private industry, entry level personnel get increases of 7%, more experienced employees get less. This salary table is flipped the WRONG WAY.

By the way, do these schedules include the "RETIREMENT BONUSES"? Or are they on top?

The truth slowly comes out.

HIGGINS SAYS...

The increase for "tenure and education" was "say 3%"

ACTUAL

"Say 6.6%" MORE THAN DOUBLE. And these are 2010 numbers. Think about it, teachers salaries have been cut by from 9.4% in 2008 to 8.6% in 2010. The 9.4% is three times the average for an American (and probably more in a declining Blue State like Illinois). At least he was not bragging about being wrong.

By the way, none of these massive increases have ANY component for MERIT PAY. Private salary increases over the last three to five years mainly reflect merit.

HIGGINS SAYS...

"All you have to do is go down to the District Administration office and ask then to get one for you."

MAN ON THE STREET ASKS

Not true. The District will require a Freedom of Information request. Curious, we have not seen Thom Higgins or QE203 on the Board agenda.

What happened to TRANSPARENCY? Why post the previous contract, but not the extension? Thom, what did Zager say about posting the last five years audits on line that Dan D. had asked?

HIGGINS SAYS...

"the average increase for teachers salaries (in 203) per year through 2008 is 3.52%.

WHAT IS THE CATCH?

This number reflects the retirement of high paid teachers being replaced with teachers at lower pay. This is a union argument for higher salary increases to teachers that remain (curious how Higgins is always making these UNION ARGUMENTS--hmm.....)

THE TRUTH

Teachers who stay another year and do nothing get 6% increases. Those with a little ambition to take three courses get 8.6 to 9.4%. Some really ambitious teachers who get babysitting duty or athletics or organizations can increase their salary even more.

HIGGINS SAYS....

"I suspect that the teachers and the district will do just fine. You need good faith on both sides and we have that now that Davitt's gone and the teachers union leadership is different."

SKEPTICS RESPOND....

Just like the FINE job on the superintendent replacement. We'll agree with half of Higgins comments, "The teachers will do just fine." That might be an understatement.

After the 2005 failed negotiations, the Board admitted to failure and was going to respond to the community on how to do better next time. What have we heard since then? A secret contract extension.

The current Board is no match to the union. The board doesn't even carry a slingshot. And the union successors are even more militant than their replacements. How else do you get increases of 5.8 to 6.0% for doing nothing and staying around for one more year?

Sorry for our skepticism, the Union will ensure that the District is broke by 2012 at the LATEST. And the Board is simply incompetent.

Thom--

I've worked in corporate offices where a 3.52% raise was never attainable. Absent a promotion, 3% was usually the top increase for a good annual review.

I have allot of respect for teachers and I don't think most people hate them, but there are plenty of people tired of strikes (or the threat thereof) from people with tenure, automatic pay increases, and the summer off.

Our kids are to be cherished and cared for. They're not bargaining chips for teachers' salaries.

T.B.

PS and Anonymous,

Salary schedules are public record. All you have to do is go down to the District Administration office and ask then to get one for you.That's how I got mine.

When you get one, you can verify all my numbers. Also, realize that not everyone takes classes every year and gets a "lane" change. Could a teacher get a 9% raise for one year if he takes enough classes and is in right place in the schedule? Yes, but it's not a common occurrence. To answer your question the increase for your example would be 8.3%

If you go to the ISBE report cards and go back to 1998 (oldest data there) you will find that the average increase for teachers salaries per year through 2008 is 3.52% That's 3.52% You don't need to take my word it's all at the ISBE website. Now, this number can be affected by the age and educational experience of the teaching staff somewhat. But considering we have 11 full years of salary data, and we have had an older more experienced teaching staff, we can say that all the talk about 9% yearly raises is simply not correct. Not even close.

Please go to the ISBE website and see for yourself. It's all there and you don't have to take my word for it.

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

Bingo, PS. Good stuff. Higgins continually attempts to misdirect, ignore, obfuscate the facts, etc. He is a District 203 apologist through and through.

Typical Thomey

First, we can't check his number (unless he has a link to the information that the rest of the world has, you only get that if you are linked to the teachers unioin).

But he said they get "tenure and education" raises. The schedule he quoted is just the tenure portion. He does not show the additional jump from a MA 10 to a MA 10 plus 12 hours that was worth another 3.4% in 2008 (don't know what it will be in 2010). So the "tenure and education" raises are at least 6%, for a total of 8.8%.

A little off from 5%.

I will also suspect that the salary increase numbers for most Americans will be less than 2% by 2010.

And the Champion numbers (somebody posted them for teachers that were there in 2002 and still there 5 years later) averaged 8%. In line with the published salary increase for those people who take the three to four classes each year. So the Champion is NOT that far off.

Please note, after 10 years, a salary equivalent to approximately $87,000 for 12 months work. This is probably amongst the highest paid professions (oh, that's right, the department of Labor has already said that). This does not look like "locked into starting salary forever."

This QE 203 group is independent? I think the teachers unions are cringing on their poor portrayal of their situation. With friends like this, who needs enemies.

PS

Please look at my previous post. My comment was ..2%? yes, that's their CPI increase or raise. Teachers also get tenure and educational raises (say 3% total) otherwise they would be effectively locked at a starting salary forever.

So I'm saying that the teachers salaries are going up 5% on average. You can go look at the D203 budget, it's on line and will verify. Yes, I could be off a tenth or two.

As to a specific salary for a specific level of educatio:

A MA9 is $62,169 That increases to $65,124 at 10 years a total increase of 4.8%

A BA9 is $50,371 and a BA10 is $52,607 a total increase of 4.4%

The range looks to be 3.8% total raise on the bottom (first year teacher with a BA) to 7.0% on the top (A masters54 with 22 years experience)

These numbers come straight out of the 08-09 09-10 salary schedule and more or less confirm my numbers.

The Champion website has a number of problems with it. Dave Zager has the details if your interested.

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

The chickens are coming home to roost far faster than you think Higgins.

Higgins spews again

1. If the District would pay teachers 1% more than CPI rather than 2.5%, then there would be enough money for twenty years.

2. You are TOTALLY MISLEADING PEOPLE WITH THE 2% salary increase. Teachers get automatic increases for each year they stay with the system. THOSE INCREASES ARE GREATER THAN 1%. If you go to the 203 web site, the last year that teachers contracts are posted (by the way, where are the last two years, they were approved two years ago), salary increases for just staying in the District one more year is over 3% for a teacher with a masters and ten years experience.

The total increase for that teacher (a MA 9 in FY07 to a MA10 in FY08) is OVER 6%. Just working one more year with no increase in either job responsibility or position and they get 6%. The Wage portion of the Employment Cost Index (teacher benefits are not included in this 6%) for all American workers increased at approximately 3%. So teachers received DOUBLE than the average American.

Don't stop there. If a teacher takes 12 credit hours of classes (three classes in a year), their salary would increase by ANOTHER 3.4%.

THAT IS WHY ORDINARY TEACHERS ARE AVERAGING SALARY INCREASES OF 9% ON THE CHAMPION.ORG.

So is Higgins shooting from the hip without the facts or lying to all of us? Does it matter if his comments are either based on ignorance or deceit? I think all Naperville people should despise people who cannot be truthful.

Rahmbo,

Hows Rush doing, I haven't hear him on the radio in 10+ years.

I've mostly been sticking to far right skin head publications like the Wall Street Journal, IBD and Sun aside from the occasional e-mail from a friend.

You may want to ditch your cell phone and ham radio, too easy to track you.

Anonymous,

Kinda hard to claim the District wasted anything when they are using surplus funds to fund the renovation which will also save on interest payments, abated the referendum cost for the coming years tax bills, and are not in deficit as so many Districts are.

And when you consider how much less D203 spends than it's peers, all of that is doubly impressive.

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

Higgins, this district had a ton of money and they have wasted it. The taxpayers ticket guys knew what they were doing. They were the only responsible group running last time. Now we have flunkies like Steve Deutsch running AGAIN. How many times has that goof ball tried to get elected to the board? I've lost track.

OH BUBO!!!

Another thing I forgot, you know how Hitler helped every German get a radio so they could all tune in to his propaganda? Seems pretty similar to B. Hussein "Hitler" Obama trying to stop the digital TV switch to ensure every man woman and child with any TV ever made can pick up his propaganda off the air waves...

...Think about it.

Ugh Bubo,

I just heard on Rush's show this afternoon that B. Hussein "Hitler" Obama has a game plan set up to "deal" with El-Rushbo. I can only guess what this entails, but look at what Hitler did with his propaganda machine to brainwash the German people. His first order of business was to silence all who opposed him, and stop the flow of any conflicting ideas over Germany's air waves.

So we've got B. Hussein "Hitler" Obama taking away our assault rifles, killing any fetus he can get his grubby hands on, "dealing" with any members of the media who disagree with him, and instituting complete socialism... NO WONDER THE DOW HAS TANKED! Who wants to invest in the Obamacalypse? Now me, that's for sure!

Bubo you've got to help get the word out for the Palin/Wurzelbacher ticket in '12. (Or maybe Limbaugh/Wurzelbacher '12?) The DemocRATs and the B. Hussein "Hitler" Obama propaganda machine are absolutely ruining the success of his new book- http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/26/AR2009022600005.html

This quite frankly, is an outrage. Joe deserves more respect than this, where are the people?!

Bubo, what's your ham radio call sign? We should exchange information in case we need to trade supplies after the Obamacalypse end times occur. With B. Hussein "Hitler" Obama silencing his critics I wonder how long before the black helicopters take us both away...

...Think about it.

Market Watch link

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/20-home-mortgages-were-underwater/story.aspx?guid={4DD6BCF7-8930-48F7-A5C2-E2F8B5AD34D6}&dist=hplatest

The "Carbon TAX" will add $1400 est. a year to the utility bills for all home owners, Obama's tax credits to people that currently pay little to no taxes per year will be $400-800.

Once you go into foreclosure, bankruptcy:

1. You can ask the judge to "knock down" your mortgage and the failing bank will eat the difference

2. Then the failing bank will get a bail out from TARP or the Treasury.

3. Then the FEDS will raise new taxes to increase the bail outs for failed banks.

4. Then the tax increases will force more homeowners into foreclosure and court ordered knockdowns.

5. Then the failed banks will eat more knockdowns

6. Then the FEDs will raise your taxes to bailout the failed banks.

Is this like throwing a drowning man an anvil?

=======================================
MarketWatch WSJ

A sinking feeling
20% of home mortgages were underwater in December: report
By Amy Hoak

CHICAGO (MarketWatch) -- Twenty percent of all U.S. residential properties that had a mortgage on them were underwater at the end of December, with mortgage debt greater than what the homes were worth, according to a report released Wednesday by First American CoreLogic.

We are enslaving our children and grandchildren to foreign investors and a declining standard of living to pay for socialism.

====================================

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=320977608242634

Investors Business Daily

On The Road To Socialism? We've Arrived!

By PATRICK J. BUCHANAN | Posted Tuesday, March 03, 2009 4:20 PM PT

Where the U.S. government usually consumes 21% of gross domestic product, this Obama budget spends 28% in 2009 and runs a deficit of $1.75 trillion, or 12.7% of GDP. That is four times the largest deficit of George W. Bush and twice as large a share of the economy as any deficit run since World War II.

Add that 28% of GDP spent by the U.S. government to the 12% spent by states, counties and cities, and government will consume 40% of the economy in 2009.

For Anonymous @ March 3rd 10:15pm

Wow, how do you really feel?

QE203.org is not afraid of anything. And as we are not affiliated with the Union I certainly can't speak for them.

I will say, as I have already said previously, the district is acting proactively to look at expenses so as to move out the date that the district would go into the red farther than the five, that's FIVE years from now. Prior to the economic downturn that date was 8 years out. Considering that Naperville and many nearby school districts are in the red today, I hardly think D203 is in crisis mode.

As for the rest, I understand, you apparently don't like teachers or their unions. But let's all realize that for the contract extension (08-09 and 09-10) the teachers received a whopping 2% raise. 2%? yes, that's their CPI increase or raise. Teachers also get tenure and educational raises (say 3% total) otherwise they would be effectively locked at a starting salary forever.

Frankly, I suspect that the teachers and the district will do just fine. One of the problems in 05 was Mike Davitt insulting them, and Ed R. on the other side taking the bait. I fully expect going forward both sides will be able to hammer out a contract that reflects the economic realities we all face today. You need good faith on both sides and we have that now that Davitt's gone and the teachers union leadership is different.

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

I would like to admonish the council for continuing an old practice which I feel should be suspended in tough economic times. This is the practice of hiring temporary workers (interns) for the summer. This is thinly vailed nepotism since these workers are mostly college students and you might guess whose kids they are.

This is what QE203 and its union affiliates are afraid of.

If teachers are unreasonable in negotiations, the District can declare an impasse. The District can invoke a contract and if a teacher walks out, he has quit. They lose the right to strike.

Wait a minute, how did the avoid this in 2005? Simple, the union said that they were not available to meet for the ENTIRE SUMMER. So 203 could not invoke a contract.

This was done in Salt Creek school district in Villa Park where former 203 Board President was a militant union leader. He would not allow the union members vote for a contract because 75% of the members approved. But it did not include 20% salary increases like the ones he gave to 203 teachers.

The Salt Creek Board imposed a contract. The union appealed and the District welcomed a vote. The vote approved the contract and Costello not only did not get his 20%, be was banned from entering the school buildings.

Of course, it does not have to get to this point if the teachers negotiate in good faith. Also, the District, but in the past, they have simply laid down and capitulated to the unions.

Obama's Carbon Tax is just another income redistribution scheme
===================================
AP
Obama's plan to hike taxes meets fierce opposition

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090303/D96MR05G2.html

Most of the $646 billion from the pollution fees would be used to pay for Obama's tax credit, which provides up to $400 a year to individuals and $800 a year to couples. The plan also would raise money for clean-fuel technologies, such as solar and wind power.

Obama Will Move to Rescind ‘Conscience’ Rule on Abortion, Birth Control

http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2009/02/27/obama-will-move-to-rescind-conscience-rule-on-abortion-birth-control/

Amazing! An article from the WSJ--a mainstream, highly respected publication, not an underground rag printed in some malcontent's basement.
And an issue involving real people with a real problem. Nothing about Hitler's second coming, Obama's fake birth certificate, or aliens.

See, reality isn't that hard. There may still be hope for you, Bubo.

WSJ

Will Obama Stand Up for These Kids?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123604286020215187.html

Dick Durbin has a nasty surprise for two of Sasha and Malia Obama's new schoolmates. And it puts the president in an awkward position.

The children are Sarah and James Parker. Like the Obama girls, Sarah and James attend the Sidwell Friends School in our nation's capital. Unlike the Obama girls, they could not afford the school without the $7,500 voucher they receive from the D.C. Opportunity Scholarship program. Unfortunately, a spending bill the Senate takes up this week includes a poison pill that would kill this program -- and with it perhaps the Parker children's hopes for a Sidwell diploma.

Are you sure we can't hire new teachers if we want to?

Actually the union has an unlimited right to strike, the taxpayers have no recourse.

We can't hire new teachers or bring in temporary teachers while the we negotiate with the State Monopoly supplier, the teachers union.

Unless we are willing to keep our kids home for a year, homeowners have no hand they can play.

Maybe "Reform Governor Quinn" will help get some rights for homeowners beyond simply bending over and waiting for the next round of tax increases.

===============================
By Anonymous on March 3, 2009 11:53 AM

Once this current District 203 union contract is done this board "if they are responsible" should impose an immediate and across the board 5% salary cut on all employees making over 70k. It is the right thing to do. If they don't they risk taxpayer wrath.

Once this current District 203 union contract is done this board "if they are responsible" should impose an immediate and across the board 5% salary cut on all employees making over 70k. It is the right thing to do. If they don't they risk taxpayer wrath.

To Get a Life, speak about your own 401(k). I have made more money in the last 6 months than I ever have in my lifetime. I'd suggest you check out SDS or SH. Both have made me a bundle!!!

OWVY: Yes, I caught it on Comcast this a.m. We only take weekend papers. Thanks!

The book deal is all over the papers!

Bubo:

You post every subcultural conspiracy theory you can pull out of the primordial muck, then play dumb about your allegiance to the beliefs of a cretin like Manning? It's obvious you prefer the vulgar ways he encapsulates the 30 million.

At least have the integrity to man up to this crap if you're going to force feed it to the rest of us.

You disappointment me, Bubo.

"By What the? on March 2, 2009 5:41 PM
No wonder so much of the black community has a culture of victimology. If I listened to that kind of crap every week in church, I'd probably begin to hate myself too."

================================

WOW what an encapsulation of 30 million people.

I watched a few minutes of the original links posted by Rambo, not the Hannity links.

Any good stuff in there?

One Who Values You:

Blago got a 6-figure book deal? Where did you hear this? I'm not surprised, I figured it was coming. I stated on a different thread about two weeks ago that if Blago was smart, he'd shut up, stop appearing on any talk show that would have him and write a tell-all book. Looks like the dimwit finally got a clue. Springfield must really be buzzin' at this news!

R. E. Cox,

I am taking my own advice and putting cash in the pillow case and gold in the safe deposit box.

No one forced you to take my advice.

Go fly a kite on the moon if it gives you a high.

To Get a Life. Take your own advice. My point was the current environment's disregard and lack of compassion for its residents. More occupied with silly things than real issues. Guess that was lost on you but am not concerned. Everybody matters here. Not just the 'chosen' ones. My kids are almost out of school so it's not a permanent problem for me. I may have been born and raised here but I'm sure as heck not going to die here! Too late for do-overs.

How about some rules to impeach board members? Hmmmm! Is there any process other than if they did an illegal behavior where a community can get rid of a board member? Maybe you want to think about the future?

Anonymous...It would be nice if you even considered some abortions are from women being raped. They are not the ones taking their pants off & opening their legs! Typical generalizations that posters do quite often.

Metzger is quite the role model for students isn't he! How does calling a parent, any parent, a MF make you look good? If this was Metzger's child do you not think he would be passionately fighting for his child's environment to be safe & free of stress? Well, come voting time everyone in the community will use situation as an example of whether you want this man on the board in the future. If he was my dad I'd be ashamed of him. If he was my husband I'd be ashamed of him.

Hey...this is just pathetic that Blago gets to profit from all of this! A 6 figure book deal!

All you folks need to get a life.

It seems like you have plenty of time on your hands.

You should be worrying about your 401ks that reversed to 1997 levels today and now are 101ks. None of you guys made a penny in 12 years.

At least we are smarter than the Japanese who are about to test a 26 year low. We are only testing 12 year lows in the Dow Jones and S@P indices.

Warren Buffett is warning that Treasury Bonds and Municipal Bonds are going to be next to burst after the tech bubble and housing bubble both burst this century.

I would not be putting any money in any municipal bonds including Naperville bonds.

Put your money in your mattress and as soon as you find gold, buy it. We are in trouble and you guys are dickering about senseless topics.

Let us find a solution before we go back to the soup lines of 1929. The way the market is crumbling it is probable.

2012

For Anonymous on March 2, 2009 4:16 PM

Hey, lets make this fun.

When are you claiming the district will ask for a referendum? Give us a date (the year is fine).

Whoa, the blogs are burnin'!!

While I'd heard of Manning--why is he referred to as The Honorable? His behavior and speech is anything but--that was the first time I'd seen the Hannity and Combs interview. I picked my jaw up off the keyboard.

Since the start of Obama's campaign, I've heard more racist hate speech coming from blacks about other blacks than I have ever heard from any white person in my life. That's saying a lot, because my maternal grandparents were southern racists and weren't shy about it, and on their worst days I never heard them use anything close to the kind of language that "men of God"? like Manning and J. Wright use towards blacks.

No wonder so much of the black community has a culture of victimology. If I listened to that kind of crap every week in church, I'd probably begin to hate myself too.

Sorry, Bubo, but any worthy "points" Manning could possibly have made in those tirades are so covered in s**t they're unrecognizable. Take one of Manning's rants and substitute "Obama" for "Jews, homosexuals, mentally challenged, gypsies" and you've got Hitler's hate speech all over again. The only thing missing with him is the large crowds cheering him on, which I'm sure he'd love to have but never will as mainstream American can see how looney tunes he is.

The fact that you can tolerate people like Manning and even validate their views but focus on Obama as a threat does not speak well of your judgement, Bubo.

And thanks, Rambo, for showing us the real monster under Bubo's bed.

Didn't have time to sift through previous comments to avoid potential duplicity, if any. Sooo, in my opinion - I think:

1. Daeschner has lost any credibility he may have had in my eyes.
2. Metzger should be packing his briefcase. Remember EQUALITY, if one is to treat Caudill (203) the way he was treated, potentially malicious and offensive statements should qualify too (204.) And, uh,check before "sending!"

3. It would be nice if the City Council did better things with their time than to pass "Cat leash laws." Exactly when was the last time a domestic or feral feline attacked anyone within a ten mile radius? Wow, good one!

4. Why do we even have all these council members? I've never met that many people who could agree on ANYTHING. They appear, to me, awfully busy with their own "agendas", I mean "jobs/businesses" of course. A psychological test should be mandatory, again, my own opinion. We could probably exempt the "sprinkler patrol" people.

5. Thank you for the notice telling me I've been late four times in the last two years on my electric bill and you may need a deposit. Next time I move, you alter my withdrawl date without my knowledge and/or consent, make it earlier, again, without advising me in any way shape or form. I may be forced to reconsider exactly what it is I've been paying for in this town since 1963. I guess EVERYBODY is okay with these types of policies? You polled the citizens, asked their opinion and received a majority response? Well, that's okay then.

6. If you build it, they will come...applies to "Field of Dreams."

Movie's over.

7. Don't like it move...VERY, VERY GOOD ADVICE!!!

I predict District 203 is going to sink into the hole faster than they are saying and I predict this lousy board will come back asking for another referendum and they will be soundly beaten. Then the teachers union will refuse any salary freeze and the administration will then state they have to cut athletics, music, etc. It's the same old song and dance and as predictable as the sun rise. Book it, that's what's gonna happen. Everyone remember this so we can point out to Higgins how wrong he is and what a stooge he's been for this crappy board forever.

Huh What - in case you didn't know, a Dr. takes an oathe to save a life not kill one because the mother is to selfish to accept the consequences of her actions. more abotions are performed as a form of birth control than any other reason. so ladies keep you pants on and your legs crossed if your not willing to handle a life you created.

Bubo, I can assure you that Obama is in fact Hitler.

Rambo,

Some feedback.

My take on the Daily show was clearly that they were mocking Manning, the 666 guy I don't agree with his read on the bible. 666 was Nero. All the apocalyptic language was the normal speak for important info in the language when the bible was written.

The other two Manning clips were, I think, both legitimate and make good points.

The Birth Certificate remains hidden. I carry a copy of mine in my wallet.

While I don't know if Obama is a Hitler, I don't want to give him all of the power, then find out.

When did the Germans realize what they had done? Almost 500,000 of them were exterminated for opposing the Leader once he had power.

To: By BigMike on March 2, 2009 9:28 AM

If true, the father should be suing Metzger. Since the father is not a public figure it would be a relatively easy case.

Also, I find it deplorable that our School Board has not asked for Metzger's resignation for this if it is true.

SUN editors and reporters ---- where are you on this?

Either way, are you suggesting the appearances on the Hannity show were faked by the Daily Show?

Nope, I think Daily and Colbert are funnier than Hannity, I watched Hannity probably 2 or three times last year.

=====================================

At least Himmler attended one mass execution in Poland, when he got some brains splattered on him, he blew his cookies and left. Thus began the quest for a more clinical way to exterminate humans.

Given the extraordinarily high rates of abortion among African Americans in the US, I'm sure Himmler must be smiling wherever he is. The fact that an African American is going to stand up on the gas peddle must add glee.

As an Illinois Senator, Obama voted to end the life of babies that had survived the abortion process, AKA kill them once they are out of their mother. At the camps, they would hang the newborns on the walls with nails like paper dolls, I don't know what the Leader's plan is for getting rid of them this time around.

"Did you see where Obama is reviewing the rules to force Catholic Hospitals and Doctors into the abortion business."

HA! No, he's trying to get those people to do their JOBS, and this is mainly targeted at doctors, hospitals and pharmacists refusing to provide birth control and morning-after emergency contraception for patients who request it. Claiming religious beliefs should NOT prevent you from performing a service to another. If you don't agree with the services you have taken an oath to provide, find a new job, period.

It's like a vegetarian working as a server at Outback and telling everyone who orders a steak or BBQ chicken that they're morally obligated to give them a salad instead.

Furthermore, NO ONE IS FORCING ANYONE TO HAVE ABORTIONS. What an absurd, wholly illogical idea. What in the world are you thinking?

But you keep it up, with your wacky conspiracy theories and comparisions to Hitler (Godwin anyone?) and just keep hatin', hatin's what makes the world go 'round in Naperville.

PS - I wonder how many of you anti-abortion folk volunteer with the children living at the foster home in Naperville. I bet you didn't even know we have one. Sure, it's all well and good to live, but you could care less about what happens to those children after they take their first breath. After that, hey, they're on their own, right? Some life.

Wow, why so vicious Bubo? I agree with you.

I'd love to visit the library but I'm too busy preparing for the Obamacalypse. I couldn't agree with you more that Obama is the reincarnated spirit of Hitler. Did you see all the youth interaction in his campaign? It was like watching Hitler youth propaganda videos in color! I would go as far as to say Obama is WORSE than Hitler because at least Hitler targeted the jews who at least had the limited ability (given the circumstances) to at least attempt to defend themselves. How does an unborn fetus defend itself from Obamacide? It's the lowest of the low. I think comparing Obama to Hitler gives Obama too much credit.

Either way, are you suggesting the appearances on the Hannity show were faked by the Daily Show?

Here is the full interview-

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdRC03hdPb8
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFHC-1eLHCo

Anyway, I'd write more but I've got to go the commercial break is almost over and I can't miss a minute of the Rush Limbaugh show. It's nice to have 3 hours of sanity a day where I can actually listen to someone who isn't trying to slaughter every fetus they can get their one hand on while shaking the coins out of everyone's pockets with the other!

I too want Obama to fail to teach the fools who would vote Democratic in the future a lesson. The stock market already has undone all of the great economic progress made in the 8 years of the Bush administration so we're already half way there!

IF YOU WANT SOCIALISM SWIM TO EUROPE!

Palin/Wurzelbacher '12

Rambo,

I love the Daily Show, I watch it about 5 times a year. The Obama FEAR segment was great!

You're probably aware the the Daily Show is not real news? The Colbert report too:-(

I watched Hannity about half as much and have never seen or heard either of the two references in the Daily show.

If you would like to get some additional history lessons, beyond the Daily Show, I suggest the Naperville Public Library. They should have lots of great books on highly centralized power, charismatic leaders, national socialism, unpredictable consequences from national crises etc.

Chavez, Mussolini, Lenin, and Hitler are good examples of National Socialists rising to power in times of crisis.

If reading proves too difficult, there is a great docudrama called Hitler Rise of Evil, you can watch it between Rossie & Simpsons reruns. Use the Pause on your remote, the one with two little lines.

Did you see where Obama is reviewing the rules to force Catholic Hospitals and Doctors into the abortion business. Reminds me of Himmler having the Jews operate the gas chambers and crematoriums because the moral of the SS was declining from the slaughter of innocents at the camps.

Obama, Reed and Pelosi should have to attend at least on abortion a day, lead by example.

Naperville SUn Editors:

In answer to BigMike's question, are you referring to the blog "Propsed law would remove students" from February 12? That's consistent with putting the story on page 15.

Your readers should check the coverage in the Herald. It's telling that according to that paper, two sitting members of our school board think that Metzger's comments are somehow explainable, given the situation....I think the fact that the email was sent indicates Metzger thought he had support for his comments from the other members of the school board.

Just my opinion.

Bubo wrote:

"Does Volker remind you of the General the Adolph would pal around with to make his ideas look respectable? Name escapes me."

I believe your are talking about Erich Ludendorff.

Am I missing something or is there zero discussion going on here in the blogs about D204 School Board President Mark Metzger calling the father of the boy who was sodomized a "MotherF_____" in an email sent to certain selected school board members? (notably, not all School Board members...only members of his alliance perhaps?). Oh, and oopsie, he accidentally sent the email to the Dad (i.e. the "MotherF_____") too!

Not like that is scandalous or anything....

Bubo, you're in good company thinking Obama is the new Hitler-

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=219482&title=unusual-suspect

Here are some more videos produced by the Honorable James David Manning, PhD: http://www.youtube.com/user/ATLAHWorldwide

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rjuj_AXjL7M

Are you worked up over Obama's birth certificate too?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJc6uczdhE0

Hindenberg it was

Does Volker remind you of the General the Adolph would pal around with to make his ideas look respectable? Name escapes me.

Listen to Obama and every time he says "the rich" or "the bankers" substitute "the Jews".
==================================

Oy vey, Bubo!!!

What the?

Listen to Obama and every time he says "the rich" or "the bankers" substitute "the Jews".

Personality cult following.

Economic crisis with a weak incompetent predecessor G.W. Bismark.

Appealing to peoples baser instincts.

It doesn't take too much imagination to see the brand of politics Obama is taking the country towards.

Presently, the country is flying too close to the flames.

Bubo

Thomas!

Yes, 3:37 AM. Pathetic, isn't it?

Thanks for the 10 minutes. I'm going to look over your link and google some of the other stuff as suggested by Anon while you're gone. I'm not through with this yet!

I did not include MSNBC because I rarely watch it. I do know it's the home of Chris Matthews and his thrilled leg. I think the Reps took the leg comment way too seriously. No one else did. It has made Chris a national joke, even the Dems are making fun of him.

It seems Obama is in a no-win situation with the right over the Fairness Doc. If he kills it, the right accuses him of protecting liberal TV. If he supports it, the right accuses him of silencing conservative radio. Wouldn't you agree? So since there is no way for Obama to please his critics, you would think he'd at least make a choice that would please his party. But he didn't. So now he's got both sides complaining and Dick Durbin working against him.

Again, regardless of my final opinion on the liberalness of the media, I do think O acted on conscience with the Fairness Doc, not self-interest. To act in self-interest would have been far easier.

Later!

Here's a new topic: With the intermittent lane merges happening at 75thand Washington, it would be nice if the Sun or someone would publicize the proper way to merge. Studies have shown that, in situations of heavy traffic, it is better to do a zipper merge, as in all cars proceed in both lanes to the merge point, then alternate. This is fairer to everyone, actually makes traffic move faster, and helps keep backups from overflowing onto other roads. Those of you who merge early because you think you are being nice, actually slow everyone down and distort the system.

Bubo: Thanks for the link to the American Thinker. Now this is something worth looking at. Please stay away from those homemade hack videos. They're more creepy than persuasive.

I remember hearing O talk about tapping into the volunteer and youth base in America for community service opportunities during his campaign. To me, his ideas sounded more like John Kennedy's call to "ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" than Hilter youth groups. But since our frames of reference when hearing this stuff are different, I'm not surprised our conclusions are as well.

I don't think our government is a threat to truth, justice and the American way regardless who is at the helm, so I don't immediately go there with this article. In fact, the article states that Obama's words "were not about forming a paramilitary force of volunteer brown shirts" or a "giant police force", so I'm a little confused as to why you pulled this article up in support of this theory. The author does scoff at Obama as being naive, but aside from that it's the usual conservative bash stuff, griping about the cost of such an ambitious idea and how taxes would have to be raised to fund it. He's not bashing the idea itself, just it's practicality.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with expanding community service opportunities and asking Americans to serve. The important word here is "asking". No one is saying "requiring", yet it seems this is what you fear will happen.

I remember how popular the Peace Corps was with young, college age kids during the Kennedy administration. Obama would like to see this spirit of patriotism again. I'm in favor of patriotism and wanting to make our communities better. Why aren't you?

George Bush made the same point, that "national security begins with civilians", after 9/11. I remember him talking about this at a press conference, asking Americans to be alert and watchful and take an active role in our own protection. That's ok too.

I really think attempts to morph a call for community service into Orwellian social control and its young volunteers into Nazis is really misguided, Bubo. As for the hack video, I don't care if it was really Rahm's voice or not, as I have no way of knowing what he was talking about and to whom from it's crudely crammed together sound bites. What I do care about is folks trying to manipulate others with low-tech crap like it. There's plenty of reliable and authentic media coverage out there.

Like I said before, we have enough real problems on our plates. To put so much effort towards the imaginary ones is a waste of time.

Mr. Higgins,

The assessment for homes and commercial properties in Naperville are made by either Lisle Township or Naperville Township.(Not familiar with the Will County portion of Naperville)

If you don't like your assessment you have a right to appeal it. The appeal is to a Dupage Board of Assessors. Sometimes you have one member and sometimes you have 3 members of the Board who listen to the case you present at a hearing. A township official will be present to dispute your case before the Dupage Board of Assessments.

I have been involved in this process for both a home and an office building in Naperville. City of Naperville has no say in the assessment or valuation process.

The City of Naperville can set the tax rate based on the TOTAL assessment provided by the townships and county. I am surprised CM Furstenau would not know this. I thought everyone knew this. Maybe you misunderstood what he was saying. Krause's silence does not mean he agrees with Furstenau. He is an experienced realtor and should know how the system works. Maybe his mind was elsewhere.

Landlords do not have unlimited funds. If a landlord has numerous vacancies without some tax relief, he could go bankrupt. Taxes for shopping centers and office buildings are paid by the tenants using a pro rata system. Each tenant pays his percentage of the real estate tax for the whole building. If there are vacancies, the landlord is stuck with the real estate bills unless he appeals.

In Naperville taxes for commercial property can fluctuate from 2-6 dollars per square foot depending on location and base rent. The highest tax in Naperville is around Naper Blvd and Warrenville Rd in the midst of the tech corridor. I once considered buying that restaurant on the NE corner of that intersection. When I saw the tax for the building I was shocked and started looking elsewhere.

Not only can you reduce your commercial taxes if you have vacancies, but if you have a severe decline in rents you can also reduce your taxes. If rents decline from 30 dollar per square foot to 20 dollars per square foot, you are entitled to a 33% reduction in your assessment. Naperville could neutralize such a reduction if they were able to increase the tax rate on the building by 50%. However Naperville has to have one tax rate for the entire city and can not issue special increases for specific buildings that got their assessments reductions.

The bottom line is commercial property owners have every right to a reduction as a home owner. The only proper way for the city to honor these reductions is to reduce expenses. In other words, when things get really bad Naperville can cut salaries 10% instead of raising them as they did this year. Raising salaries in this environment showed our City Council Members arrogance and disregard for taxpayers.

Sadly, since Naperivlle has Home Rule, they can raise the tax rate as high as they like. With the Naperville Sun not playing its watchdog duties and the Napergate Man retired, the City of Naperville is acting irresponsibly. It is acting like Bernand Madoff and soon we will see a ponzi scheme blow up in this town.

Warren Buffett warned in his annual report 2 days ago that municipal bonds will be the next financial instruments that burst and bring devastation to our country. He is usually right. Naperville just borrowed 50 million in municipal bonds for repairs and improvements and may borrow another 20 million for a library deck. In my opinion, this is the wrong time and they should have delayed expanding 75th and Washington St. intersection and other project till the sun shines again. Not in a DEPRESSION!!!

to: By What the? on February 28, 2009 3:37 AM

A simple google search will get you all the info you need to prove media bias to the left. The studies are often & deep.

Great quote from Brit Hume at Fox News today

"Democrats (and Obama) would prefer that all people be equally poor than unequally rich."

Got to say Tim West's "viewpoint" headline caught me by surprise.

In typical bureaucratic fashion it will take the township a week to explain what it does. Really?

I'm willing to bet even a notorious long-winded pontificator like Joe Biden couldn't go on for more than 15 minutes.

Who would have thought?

Darlene Senger should screen who comes to her open houses. Higgins is a spy for the Democratic Party. Beware of the Ides of March!!

Tax man

The best advice is to call the Naperville or Lisle Assessor. You would have to know the total EAV (equalized assessed value) for all commercial properties (and any reduction) and then the total residential EAV to start to make conclusions as to what will happen on a percentage basis. But yes, the reason why Naperville is not happy about the big business' getting assessment reductions is it will transfer a bigger burden to the residential properties.

The percentage of the EAV increase for residential properties (due to reassessment) is really not a factor to be concerned with as much as the percentage that the non home rule bodies can raise the amount of funds collected based on the CPI. This springs tax bill will be 4.1% I believe. If all homes go up an average higher than that, the rate falls to get back to the 4.1%. Check your previous years bill and compare the rate. Sure, you would like your EAV to be lower, (that's why the big boys are contesting) but the total amount that can be increased flows from the CPI calculation.

You are mentioning the equalization factor. That has been constant at 33% for some years. There is talk of increasing it but that would be big, big news if it happened.

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

If Higgins is right (a big if for those posters who do not follow him), the businesses WILL get reductions. If a commercial building is vacant, the assessment laws allow reductions as much as 50% of the value. Look at all the vacancy in the business and commercial buildings.

Let's say this reduces overall assessment by 5%. At the same time, the equalization factor for houses is up by almost 6%. If Higgins is right, I am wrong on taxes going up 5%. Instead, they will go up closer to 10% this year because the shortfall for the commercial properties will be transferred to the residential properties. Commercial properties get a 50% reduction, residential a 10% increase.

For a house to get a lower assessment, there has to be a sale, foreclosures do not count. So it will take a long time for our 30 to 40% reductions in value to get into the tax rolls. Unless the legislature eliminates the false increases since 2002.

Stop Dreaming

Respectfully, I was at State Representative Darlene Senger's open house on Friday afternoon. I was part of a large group of people talking and Councilman Dick Furstenau made the statement I repeated here. Doug Krause was next to him and didn't contradict Dick's statement. From that I have to believe the city is indeed contesting these companies attempt to get their assessments lowered. I suggest you contact Dick directly if you have any questions.

As far as the school taxes go may I refer you to my previous post.

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

Thom Higgins and Bubo,

The City of Naperville is not involved in assessments for businesses in town so they can not contest anything. I don't know why you guys are starting rumors here.

Just like a homeowner contests his taxes to Dupage County, a business also contests its taxes to Dupage County....not Naperville.

If an office building or shopping center is half vacant, Dupage County will usually give a lower assessment to reflect the vacancies. A shopping center or office building half vacant is worth much less than one fully occupied.

Commercial property sells base on rental income. There is a capitalization rate that determines the value of commercial property and it is based on net operating income.

A vacant home is very different than a vacant office building.

Naperville can scream and yell at it wants. No one will hear its protests as it is not even invited to these assessment evaluation hearings. It is not a party to them.

The bottom line Naperville is going to be receiving much less in taxes due to lower home and commercial property assessments. It can overcome all this by increasing the TAX RATE which it does often. It is Home Rule so it is not limited to a 5% cap on its portions. The schools are limited to 5% increases but not the City of Naperiville which is exempted itself from a 5% cap rate.

So the school portion of your tax bill will be capped to a 5% increase but not the City of Park District due to Home Rule.

When you are giving salary increases to city employees, be assured this can only be done by increasing the tax rate to compensate for the decline in valuation.

Will Naperville increase the tax rate? Of course it will or else it can not give its employees raises. They promised the raises so you can be certain of your tax increase. How will it pay for the massive pension deficits? How will it pay for the full health benefits for most employees? I think the City of Naperville committed the crime of the century when it agreed to give raises to employees in this economic enviroment. Imagine how the terminated city employees feel when they hear their colleagues got raises. What a slap in the face to them? They made the ultimate sacrifice for the taxpayers, only to have their colleagues do the opposite. If one city employee can be expected to sacrific his job, another should show some class and not expect or accept a raise. Of course our city bosses should know better and not be offering raises.

Anyone who thinks their home taxes are going lower because of a 25% decrease in real estate values does not live on this earth. They are in for a rude awakening when their tax bill arrives in late April.

Everyone should expect a 6% increase in taxes this year no matter what happened to the value of their home. If you don't want increases you need to call your city council and demand they stop giving city employees raises in this massive depression....we are not in an economic recession....this is a DEPRESSION! Ask Warren Buffet if you don't believe me. His Berkshire Hathway Shares declined from 152,000 per share to 74,000 per share. Yes, his shares are the most expensive on the stock market so those huge numbers are PER SHARE.

What the?

This article views Obama as naive and unsophisticated, I don't know how many would agree with that today.

Even if the Rahm recordings are manufactured, (sounds like him) the parallel to Hitler Youth is hard to miss even through rosy colored glasses. Youth (primarily) Groups controlled by the leader for the purpose of affecting social change.

12 Domestic Corps to implement the leaders policies to remake America. Remake America into what?

July 20, 2008

Obama's Civilian National Security Force

By Lee Cary

Barack Obama's recent words to promote his image as Community Organizer in Chief were not about forming a paramilitary force of volunteer brown shirts. They were about turning America into one, giant, community organizer's sandbox at enormous cost to taxpayers.

Senator Obama was nearly 17 minutes into his July 2 speech (yet another one where naming Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was required) in Colorado Springs, Colorado when he deviated from his pre-released script and performed without the teleprompter net saying,

"We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set. We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded." (emphasis added)................

=================================

He plans to double the Peace Corps' budget by 2011, and expand AmeriCorps, USA Freedom Corps, VISTA, YouthBuild Program, and the Senior Corps. Plus, he proposes to form a Classroom Corps, Health Corps, Clean Energy Corps, Veterans Corps, Homeland Security Corps, Global Energy Corps, and a Green Jobs Corps. Here a corps - there a corps - everywhere a corps corps.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/07/obamas_civilian_national_secur.html

Oh, Bubo, stop already with the fear-mongering, conspiracy theory propaganda. That last link was so amateurish and low budget they didn't even bother to dub and splice the sounds bites correctly. My daughter, who is a film major, does much better work than that on her home Mac. This country has enough REAL problems facing it. Why don't you put some time and energy into addressing those rather than the monsters under your bed?

What the? on February 28, 2009 3:37 AM

_________________

Hi What the ?, 3:37 AM???? I've been out of touch for a while and will be for a while longer, but wanted to take 10 minutes to try to respond. I could go on and on, and would like to research it more, but these are the first thoughts that come to mind. I think our conclusion will be the always comfortable "agree to disagree" because I'm not sure either one of us can come up with a magic bullet to change the other persons thinking.

Can't disagree that bias can be in the eye of the beholder. I believe it exists based on the stories the news groups select and the types of questions given. Simply having a conservative on your show doesn't necessarily show balance. There were numerous examples of bias during the election. McCain was asked pointedly and directly what he would do to change the economy while Obama was often asked about his monumental ascent and truly historic campaign.
Regardless of what you think about Palin, she was lambasted by the media as too dumb to serve based on the direct questions she was given, the same show went on to ask Obama how his flight was and if the election was taking a toll on his energy.

Gingrich comes on a show and is always described as "Very Conservative Former Congressman Newt", or "right wing Newt" etc. Someone like Ted Kennedy comes on the same show and is described as "Senator", "Sir", "long time Senator" etc. (Never any mentions about Chappaquidick (sp?) I might add). And never a mention that he is "Liberal" senator, etc.

Many people believe the discussion about liberal bias means that All news people proclaim all republicans as evil and all democrats as good. I'm not saying this, what I am saying is that the slant is given in the types of questions and veracity of the question. Is George Stephanopoulos in the middle? He was Clinton's guy for years.

I watched the CBS morning show yesterday (Saturday) and saw a story about Michelle Obama's dress that she wore to the speech given the other night. The "host" of the show seemed to be holding back tears as she commented on how truly "stunning" and "beautiful" the dress was and how Michelle is truly an inspiration. I believe she is an inspiration, but doubt that this type of story was ever done for a conservative first lady. (No jokes about the looks or wardrobe of the Republican first ladies please).

Didn't CBS have Dan Rather as their top news guy for years?

From: http://www.mediaresearch.org/welcome.asp
(arguably a conservative site)

In 2005, ex-CBS News President Van Gordon Sauter confessed he stopped watching his old network: “The unremitting liberal orientation finally became too much for me.”

On MSNBC: On Thursday's Countdown show, left-wing actress and comedienne Janeane Garofalo appeared to talk about a recent poll finding that Rush Limbaugh is substantially less popular with women than with men. Evoking laughter from MSNBC host Keith Olbermann, Garofalo remarked that "the type of female that does like Rush is the same type of woman that falls in love with prisoners." After citing serial killers Richard Ramirez and Charles Manson, she then compared women who like Limbaugh to Adolf Hitler's girlfriend, Eva Braun: "Eva Braun, Hitler's girlfriend. That is exactly the type of woman that responds really well to Rush."

Is it going to be necessary for the City of Naperville to take over operation of the DuPage Children's Museum?

Every year there are problems with the museum securing enough money for operations and to service their existing debt. They struggle like a lot of other non-profit organizations, yet seem to have strong attendance whenever I have visited.

I've always mentally questioned the name... Dupage Children's Museum... as opposed to say Naperville Children's Museum? I have not seen any breakdown on a couple of things... where do the visitors come from and the source of all of their funding? With the location it would seem that attendance is probably strongest from Naperville, surrounding cities, and drops off with distance. Let's face it Naperville isn't exactly at the geographic center of DuPage county so I'm willing to bet a lot of visitors are from Will, Kane, Kendall, and some other counties. I'm also willing to bet that a lot of visitors are from Aurora and Plainfield, Lisle, etc.

Year after year the City of Naperville has helped with funding. Great that we are able to do this. Supporting a museum with cultural funds is the absolute best use of SECA funds as opposed to paying city employees overtime with these funds. Only a shame that the city council is so confused on what is the right thing to do with a tax they invented and collect.

But what I have never seen and suspect a lot of other residents have never seen is besides what the City of Naperville kicks in for financial support what are all of our neighboring towns kicking in? How much is DuPage county kicking in? How much is United Way kicking in? How much are the community groups like Jaycee and the Exchange Club who raise a ton of money through their summer events donating locally to support things we need in our community?

If DuPage County isn't helping to fund the museum and if our neighboring towns aren't helping to fund a community asset that their own citizens are using then maybe it is time to realize that this is never going to be a self-sustaining operation? If that is the case maybe the Naperville Park District should take over the ownership so that we will not have to worry about this museum ever going out of business. I think we all want to see a facility like this available for our children and grand-children in the years and decades to come. If the only way to ensure the long term life of this museum is to make it the Naperville Children's Museum I am all for it.

Dianne McGuire, former NUEA President, threatened this community with teacher strikes, now seeks votes from the very same community...again? This is the same Dianne McGuire who ran unsuccessfully for State Rep last year and who is now running for Naperville Township Clerk. It's the same Dianne McGuire who has a history of running sleazy and despicable campaign ads. And its the same McGuire who helped create a union-financed organization called PURE to endorse the very same 2007 school board candidates as QE203. If you want an extreme left-wing, IEA-endorsed liberal as your Township Cleark, here's your candidate.

STRIKE: Dispute over salary major stumbling block in talks

Daily Herald
Aug 27, 1991

For the past several years, the union has settled for 7 percent increases. "We need a reasonable salary offer," McGuire said. "We don't think we are worth less this year than we
were last year."

Board members maintain their offer was "more than fair" and is in
line with what the community expects. "In the last two days I have gotten many phone calls from people, most of whom thought we had gone above and beyond the point of reasonability,"
said board President James Kreamer.

In the current economy, many people in the community are not getting
6 percent pay increases, Kreamer said. Rather, some are losing
their jobs or taking salary freezes or cuts. That argument is not holding water with the teachers union. "We don't buy into that," McGuire said, indicating Napervilie has not been as affected by the recession as other communities. "We believe it's more perception than reality."

Rahm and Barak talk about universal compulsory national service (drafted) in the Obama Youth that will require militarization, living in barracks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0B7dOQwKm0

PBS - Sorry to have been out of circulation (working on bringing some stimulus $$$ to Nville for clean energy projects). Rather than go back to the old thread, pls give me the questions again here on downtown subsidies and library deck costs, and I'll get you prompt answers. Best, ~CB.

Last night I as heading west on Chicago and turned left/south on Washington at about 12:30am! 4 people Jaywalking!!! I swear it was like an obstacle course! This is just crazy! There was a cop further on Chicago by the Grill, but this was going on near the parking garage. Then of course when I turned left at the light, about 30 young people crossing but talking & not paying attention & of course probably a bit sauced. They were not paying attention at all! I'm sorry but they are responsible also! Don't act like an animal if you don't want to be roadkill. I'm not meaning uncaring about them at all, it is just that animals do not know any better...people do! If you can't even cross a street in a responsible manner you should not be driving or doing much of anything else! Well, at least if it is very consistent behavior!

Civics

There are few important topics you overlooked on your post:

* How do I sign my kids up for the Obama youth corps?

* Will service in the youth corps entitle my kids to special benefits and better positions in the Democratic Party?

* Will there be special police and military units comprised entirely of older youth corps members?

* How soon will children be encouraged to inform on their parents for violating emergency measures to protect us against global warming?

* When medical, power and consumer goods rationing begins will I be entitled to shop in the Democratic Party Leader stores and use the special medical facilities?

* While it is the duty of every good American to inform on their neighbor for disloyalty to the party and its ideals, will I get extra gasoline and electricity rations when I do it?

It is really sad that the tax structure is set up the way it is. Most people have all to do to make it as it is let alone another tax increase. Everywhere you look we all all being taxed to death. These are tough times yet. It seems like the only way you can survive, if you want to call it that, is to be at the bottom of the food chain or at the top. Anywhere else you are screwed.

"By Thom Higgins on February 27, 2009 5:58 PM
I hear the City of Naperville is now fighting the big business in town that are contesting their property tax assessment (BP, NALCO Lucent etc) because they fear the increased burden it will place on homeowners. They are having some success."

Thom,

Since part of Obama's plan is to ruin any competitive advantage southern states have over high tax, liberal Northern States by cramming unions and welfare programs down their throats it seems more likely that Naperville's premier companies will have to move off shore to a Capitalist country like China.

The school districts and local governments driving our jobs to China and India will not help the homeowners.

Do you think compounded 7% pay raises for our educators are sufficient when so many of our non government residents are getting squeezed? Should we take it 10% to make up for pension plan losses from the stock market? Every time Obama opens his mouth, the pension plans get hammered.

Don't look for any press releases as our companies exit, it will happen one job, one department at a time, one day when you drive by and a man in a cherry picker will be taking the signs off the big empty buildings.

Maybe the government can give everyone a government job and just print the money to pay us, like Zimbabwe.

Cheating on spouses is down 50% according to CNN.

Keeping her is cheaper than divorcing her these days.

Cheating on her is too expensive.

No one is going to the Four Seasons Hotel to bang anymore.

Some banging is taking place in cars

Just like the good old days....lol....

The country is broke, the corps are broke and individuals are foreclosing on their homes. The world is collapsing.

Yet Tiger Woods will soon be the first athlete to make 1 Billion Dollars. Go figure!

Something is wrong with this country when we can pay athletes and entertainers hundred million dollar contracts and yet 48 million citizens can not afford health insurance....and the rest of the middle class pays for their insurance besides its own.

These athletes and entertainers should be taxed 75% and the money used to buy health insuruance. Is one single athlete or entertainer going to quit because of a high tax rate.....lol..

30 million to make a move is nuts. You won't find me going to the movies or renting a video. I am not contributing to this ridiculousness.

Tax Man,

How can taxpayers afford a 5-6% increase in their real estate taxes if they got no raises this year and of course no bonuses....and those are the lucky ones who did not lose their jobs.

I think all the taxing authorities acted irresponsibly in giving their employees raises while expecting the taxpayers who are struggling to pay for these raises.
'
I urge everyone to oust the old in the next local election this April and bring in the new. They all had their chance to make a difference the last 4-16 years and SCREWED UP.

Does anyone know anything about any new candidate running for city council? I can't even name ONE. No ads or articles in the Naperville Sun that I have seen when buying it on the newstand. Pretty soon I will stop spending 75 cents to buy it as I did today if someone at the Sun does not get election coverage rolling soon.

I urge Host Christ to give each candidate his own thread. It would give us a chance to learn about our candidates......know what they stand for.

It would also put this Blog Site on the map of Naperville. Right now it is limited to a few dozen hard core bloggers who at most control a few dozen votes. I doubt Keyboard Rambo would even leave his keyboard to vote. Sure he would vote online but that kind of voting does not exist...lol...

Basically in its current state this blog site can not make a difference. Let us hope the Host can do something in order for this blog site can make a DIFFERENCE. All we hear is NOISE. We need result so we can make a DIFFERENCE. We need change.

With no attention given to new candidates, old candidate like Doug Krause win automatically due to name recognition....no other reason. How is this an election? How will this bring us good governance?

Hey, Thomas, if you're out there:

In a follow-up to our discussion on the previous thread, I've been paying attention more than normal to local news stations and the Fairness Doc issue in particular the last several days. This is what I have noticed: Newt Gingrich was on the CBS Early show the other day railing against Obama's stimulus package. The Republican gov. of So Carolina, Mark S., was on the CBS Early Show another day faulting the stimulus package and explaining why he would like to turn down some of its funds. These two segments are not indicative of a left leaning bias on CBS.

I've also read that conservative talk radio, and especially Christian radio, are still very threatened by the Fairness Doc. Fox news claimed a victory for conservative radio and TV when Obama nixed the doctrine. Our own Dick Durbin, a Dem, is trying a back door approach to the Fairness Doc by trying to attach a "radio diversity" bill to some D.C. legislation being approved right now, and Rep. Jim DeMint is countering this with a Broadcasting Freedom Act. So it appears by all indications that Dems still want the Fairness Doc or something like it, and conservative Reps are still very much against it.

If Obama really eliminated the Fairness Doctrine to preserve the left leaning edge that Democrats currently enjoy with the major TV stations, as you claimed, then someone had better let Durbin, DeMint, Gingrich, Mark S., Limbaugh, Hannity, Fox News and CBS know. These folk's words and actions do not indicate that a left leaning bias exists on TV. In fact, in all the flap over the Fairness Doc in the last several days, I haven't heard anyone so much as suggest this.

You may want to consider that perhaps the reason ABC, NBC and CBS do not acknowledge a left leaning bias in their reporting is because none actually exists. Like I've said before, degrees of conservatism and liberalism are very subjective. One man's socialist is another man's communist. Case in point: that dildo Alan Keyes going on national TV calling Obama a communist. If you're used to unapologetic, in-your-face conservative radio and TV such as Rush and Fox News, then chances are mainstream, impartial reporting may seem "left leaning" by comparison.

You seem like an intelligent guy, Thomas. Think about it.

How many people read the print version of the paper? If you read it, did you take the time to nominate someone as your hero? If not, why not? Is it because it's easier to camp here and gripe and moan about how everyone is doing you wrong? Out.

Oh, I think Daeschner checked out long before he arrived in Naperville. Sure, the draw of a district willing to throw big money his way and the prospect of increasing his salary so he could go out big and draw a large pension would appeal to anyone. The difference here, in my opinion, is he was willing to take it all without feeling the need to EARN it.

Let's get someone who is willing and EQUIPPED to do the job. Let's make the School Board accountable, as well. Come on, can you or I get away with doing half a job? Would your conscience allow you to NOT give it 100%, especially when the education and future of tens of thousands of children are involved?

Daeschner must go, pass it on...

Daeschner must go, pass it on...

Daeschner must go, pass it on...

Daeschner must go, pass it on...

Daeschner must go, pass it on...

Keyboard Rambo,

The answers are not for me. They are for all of Naperville so Napervillians can use the answers to vote during election time as they feel appropriate.

CM Bob promised he would get back and post the answer for us. He should keep his promise. And I have no doubt he will. Of course, if he posted it on another thread and I missed it, I apologize.

If I get a direct answer from CM Bob and post it, it does not have the same credibility as if he posts it himself. It amounts to hearsay. It would really have no credibility as Anonymous people on this blog can not be held accountable for what they say.

Honestly, I do not feel you have the qualifications to teach a 5th grader social studies. I would strongly recommend continue pounding on your keyboard and seeing it you can educate it to type for you.

77 Sunset

Very crudely, there are two issues. If the total EAV(equalized assessed value)of all homes fall, the way the tax cap laws work the rate (not the multiplier) will be adjusted up to capture the same total amount of money as the previous year. If there is a CPI increase, that can be added to the amount up to 5%. Also any new construction can be added to this total.

So even if the value of all homes fall, the tax dollars will remain constant, up to a limiting factor which would kick in if total EAV fell something like 25-30% If the CPI is zero, which it is for 2008, affecting 2009 taxes, (payable in 2010 ) there can be no increase in that total amount. So an increase of 4.1%? this year and zero increase for next year. This is for total EAV of all properties. Yours can vary slightly based on where you are in relationship to all other homes.

I hear the City of Naperville is now fighting the big business in town that are contesting their property tax assessment (BP, NALCO Lucent etc) because they fear the increased burden it will place on homeowners. They are having some success.

Naperville, which is a Home Rule city can do whatever it wants.

I just heard this week that there is talk somewhere to raise the multiplier from 33% to 41%. Is this what you heard? Considering the economic climate, I hope whoever proposed this has a security detail, they'll need it.

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

Taxes going down for the taxes paid in 2008? Think again.

First, assessments are going up across the board by 5.9% in Lisle Township and 5.8% in Naperville Townhip.

Second, District 203 is increasing taxes by 4.1%. I think they did not increase the taxes for the construction project.

Third, the City of Naperville projects a constant tax levy, so that means they are increasing taxes by the increase in assessments above (5.8%).

The balance of the taxes are probably flat.

So in total, count on a tax increase of at least 5%.

Everyone --------- What is going to happen to our tax bills next year. Are they going to be lowered seeing as all of our property values have fallen or is the assessor going to raise the multiplier so that we can even get screwed some more. (Mainly by the school districts seeing as they are about71% of our tax bill)

Hey Rambo: I don't typically agree with your viewpoint on things but your 2/27 12:50pm post was a crack up. Nicely done, sir.

Kevin,

You can claim the sky is falling, but your own statement contradicts you. If 203 had burned through all its cash as you claim on one hand, it hardly would be able to get out 5 years before it ran out of cash (again?), and this is of course all based on the projections before they start making cuts.

So the sky isn't falling and they most certainly aren't preparing the stage for another referendum.

Thom Higgins
QE203.org

Suggested Topic

"Dispatches from Idaho"
Tips and Tricks for preparing for the coming apocalypse. Subjects include:

-"Your M16 and You" how to operate and maintain various types of large and small firearms.

-"Tripwires - dont get tripped up by poor design"

-"Water Storage - long term solutions guaranteed not to leave you all wet"

-"MRE's NOT rejected by Ethiopians - sauces and spices to tempt the fussiest gourmet survivalist"

-"Scratch Your Head - lotions and salves to help relieve the itch and redness from razor burn on your skin-head."

-"Reading the Signs - how to make the instructions printed on the back of stop signs for UN invasion forces work for YOU."

and many more....

Hey I'm trying to help a 5th grader with his social studies homework, we're stuck on this question-

Which is the most effective way to reach Councilman Bob?

a. Call the office of the city council at (630) 548-2983 and schedule an appointment.
b. Email him at fieselerr@naperville.il.us
c. Call his office phone at (630) 305-5333
d. Call his cell phone at (630) 417-7553
e. Post on the blog of a local newspaper.

Maybe someone can help? Sounds like 5th graders aren't the only ones who need help learning how to contact local elected officials.

The Sun announced last week that it was going to change its format to become more of a community paper. But, the Sun no long has a situs connection to Naperville--it's editorial offices are in Aurora and it is printed in Plainfield and will soon be printed in Chicago. Much of it's content is the same as the Aurora Beacon and Heald News. Can the Sun really represent itself as a Naperville paper? Hasn't the Sun abandoned Naperville?

District 203 is already setting the table for the next operating referendum. They have burned through all the excess money they overcollected from the 2002 referendum and now project they will no longer have a surplus by 2014. Dr Leis has talked tough by discussing controlling expenses on the little stuff but the district has no desire to control expenses on salaries which account for over 75% of expenses. The district has no desire to do this, people losing jobs, houses but everyone working for the government is guarenteed a pension and raises in excess of CPI. Naperville remember this when you vote in a month.

I wonder how long it will take Thom Higgins to respond to this post?

Councilman Bob,

Where are you? We miss you. We are also awaiting some answers from you on subsidization of the downtown and cost of the library deck.

It has nearly been 2 weeks and you have not reported back to your constituents. I hope you are OK!