At its Wednesday night meeting, the Naperville City Council approved a one-year trial period for Joe Hornbaker to operate a hot dog cart downtown.
Hornbaker said he is willing to pay his fair share for operating a downtown business, including the food and beverage tax, and the downtown special service area tax. But the Downtown Naperville Alliance is concerned that Hornbaker will take away business from other venues and won't pay his fair share.
Do you think the hot dog cart has an unfair advantage? Do you think such a business is a valuable addition to the downtown?
Offhand I can't think of any businesses downtown that currently serve hot dogs, so this sounds like a welcome addition. As for it being unfair, perhaps Mr. Hornbaker should argue that the other eating establishments downtown have an "unfair" advantage in that they can offer a place for their customers to sit and eat their food.
The homeless man downtown also has an advangtage.
Both don't pay rent while the rest of us have to pay rent.
Since he does not pay rent, he can afford to buy a laptop. I still don't have one.
If I was paying 40 dollars a square foot to sell whatever and someone pulled in front of my store to sell hot dogs, I would flip over his hot dog stand.
If I was arrested I would sue the city and accuse them of favoritism. Hopefully my lawsuit won't cost the taxpayers another 2 million in legal fees.
Five Guys is going to be opening in River Square and their menu is hamburgers, hot dogs and fries- period. They are an East Coast chain with a high quality product (if you like that genre). So he would be competition for them. His advantages include being able to move around for the best location, no rent, can just shut down for the slower months. Of course his business will really be weather dependent.
I am not familiar with the closing times of downtown eateries, but it seems his operating hours will be appealing to the late night bar crowd. I don't think the city council will be issuing a lot of these permits so what happens when the next vendor asks?
I wonder what the hot dogs will cost. It would be nice to be able to grab a reasonably priced lunch in the downtown area.
If anyone wants to see what street vendors look like all they have to do is go to the ghetto's of New York, Philadelphia, and a few other east coast cities to see how really disgusting concepts like this can end up.
The filth, the noise, the smell, the litter are all something I would think we could all live without in downtown Naperville. Frankly I just don't see the pent up demand in downtown Naperville nor in any neighboring cities as well.
Thinking this thru a bit one has to wonder why someone wants to do this and why the city would approve it. On one end street vendors like this rarely make more than 20K net per year. It is a lot of work for very little profit and is usually the type of economic opportunity sought out by the uneducated, the unemployed, or the newly arrived immigrant trying to get a foot hold.
One hot dog push cart is one thing, but what happens when the second or third or more applicants show up at city hall. The city council won't be able to turn a blind eye to good old American competition less they be charged with restraint of trade. Even if they could restrain the number of licenses it would be at a number greater than one. So what will enterprising individuals do? They will just compete with different products... if Joe can sell hot dogs then I should be able to sell ice cream, tacos, etc. The net result of which is do we really want Jefferson Avenue lined with a bunch of food carts until it looks like nothing more than a tacky outdoor food court? I don't think so plus the downtown sidewalks are already narrow and crowded as it is.
Sorry Joe, but this is just a bad idea at the wrong time and in the wrong location. I can't fault your entrepreneurial spirit though statistically the vast majority of ideas like this fail. Great learning experiences though and some of the best lessons in life also tend to be the hardest. So best wishes that you do learn something from the experience.
Once the novelty of it wears off I suspect Joe and his hot dog cart will be nothing more than a memory way before the one-year trial is close to being over.
Anonymous wrote:
If anyone wants to see what street vendors look like all they have to do is go to the ghetto's of New York, Philadelphia, and a few other east coast cities to see how really disgusting concepts like this can end up.
It's been a while since I've been to New York, but I remember seeing hot dog carts in some pretty decent areas of Manhattan that have resisted becoming ghettos---so far, at least.
John Q. Public on April 10, 2009 12:08 PM
Anonymous wrote:
If anyone wants to see what street vendors look like all they have to do is go to the ghetto's of New York, Philadelphia, and a few other east coast cities to see how really disgusting concepts like this can end up.
It's been a while since I've been to New York, but I remember seeing hot dog carts in some pretty decent areas of Manhattan that have resisted becoming ghettos---so far, at least.
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I'll take it a step farther, I was there last week. The highest concentration seems to be right at times square and all along Broadway. The food looks and smells good, but I still can't get myself to actually buy from these guys. But Broadway and Times square is hardly the ghetto!
JQP,
Except for a few sections, a lot of Manhattan is nothing more than a ghetto. NYC is nothing more than a human sewer. For whatever reason New Yorkers seem to like it that way and to each there own. Center of the world they like to call it. Hah, more like the smelly arm pit of our nation.
If I wanted that I would move there. I don't and I hope we never, ever see our community deteriorate into such a cesspool.
Fact is street vendors are people living on the edge and struggling to survive. They do not reflect well on a community or its opportunities. There are some misguided soles... including city council members... who seem to think street vendors will lend some kind of quaintness or ambiance. Let's face it the city council sold out to the developers and allowed them to ruin any ambiance or quaintness downtown used to have. We are not going to get it back with a hot dog vendor. The city council better take a good hard look at street vendors elsewhere and the problems they cause before this foolhardy experiment progresses much further.
As they say be careful what you wish for... you might just get your wish granted.
I read the locations Joe is contemplating setting up his cart. I can't imagine there won't be complaints regardless what location he picks from established merchants complaining that he is blocking the visibility of their store, blocking the sidewalk, blocking access to their entrance, blocking parking, causing litter, noise, smells, etc. Unless he sets up shop next to a city parking lot there will be complaints.
Those who have been around a while remember this isn't the first time someone had a hot dog cart downtown. It didn't work before and in this economy it is doubtful it is going to work again.
You guys will even complain about a hot dog cart? Wow.
@Anonymous on April 10, 2009 10:16 AM
Ahahahaha, where do I even start with this?
The filth? Health inspections in Naperville for any establishment selling food are rigorous to the point that I'm anxious to see what kind of set up he's going to have to comply with all the requirements to serve food to the public. One thing I can promise you, with the magnifying glass his stand is going to be under, it will be anything but filthy.
The noise? What on Earth makes you think a solitary hot dog cart is going to generate more noise than idiots riding down Washington street on their motorcycles with no mufflers in first gear? Or the night clubs who bring new meaning to the definition of "noise pollution"?
The smell? If the smell of food cooking is offensive to you, you probably should stay out of downtown Naperville.
The litter? The article in the Sun detailed how he's going to be handling his trash, including a trash can which matches the existing trash cans in downtown Naperville. I'm not sure what makes you think a hot dog stand is going to generate any more litter than is generated from people throwing wrappers and cigarette butts on the sidewalk already. Furthermore, if some idiot buys a hot dog and decides to just throw it in the street, how is that anyone's fault but the person who littered?
HAHAHAHAHAHA.... hahahahah, oh god. Are you being serious here? Do you honestly believe this? Do you know anything about the street food business? A friend of mine lives up in Lake Forest and operates a hot dog cart on the weekend with his son. On an average weekend they turn a thousand dollar profit setting their cart up wherever there's going to be people like at soccer and baseball fields when there are games taking place.
I'd love to see where you're pulling this $20k number from. Or how working on your own schedule selling an easy to prepare food is a "lot of work for very little profit." This seems like typical Naperville Potluck know-it-all-ism at its finest. The funnel cake stand at the Kane County Fleamarket makes $10k on a good weekend. How do I know this? I've done my research because I've been looking in to starting something like this for about a year now. I know that knowing what you're talking about before you post on the Potluck might be a new concept for you.
In my experience, small business owners who are in to street and festival food are always friendly and willing to talk to anyone interested in their business. Did you know that the Portillos franchise and its spinoff restaurant empire started with a simple hot dog wagon? There's tons of money to be made in street and festival food. If you're smart about your business, watch the weather, choose your location intelligently and are smart about how you manage your food inventory... Even something as simple as selling hot dogs can be remarkably profitable.
Honestly, if you think that this guy isn't going to make a killing setting up his cart in between the bars and the parking garages as they're close every night... You need your head examined. Do you really think people who have spent all night drinking $5 pints and $10 martinis aren't going to flip out a couple bucks for a hot dog? Seriously?
If the Naperville hot dog cart fails, it won't be because it sales, it will because of the Downtown Naperville Business Alliance squeezing him for everything he's worth. I'm sure they've been working around the clock since this news hit the presses trying to figure out what kind of ridiculous fees they can whip up to force the hot dog cart out of town.
Want to see a successful street vendor operation? Look at Peoria which does it on a large scale around the courthouse square and Elmhurst that has a single vendor near the York theatre. Peoria regulates where, when, how, cleanliness, protection of public property and health conditions. The program has been operating since the 1980's w/o incident.
I think it is a great idea and will bring back some of the charm that has left Naperville, However I am sure there are some that would view a street vendor and as a second class citizen.
I hope that more vendors are allowed.
Say what you will but there is nothing better than a hot dog or a Tom Tom hot tamalie from a steamer.
Anonymous wrote:
Except for a few sections, a lot of Manhattan is nothing more than a ghetto. NYC is nothing more than a human sewer. For whatever reason New Yorkers seem to like it that way and to each there own. Center of the world they like to call it. Hah, more like the smelly arm pit of our nation.
I think you have it backwards. The better part of Manhattan is upscale to downright filthy rich. There are some not so nice areas, but they are the exception. That said, Manhattan is very noisy and crowded and, well, you wouldn't ever want to try eating off the sidewalks. It's certainly not everybody's cup of tea.
Back to the topic at hand, though: whether or not you agree that most of Manhattan would not qualify as a ghetto, it definitely has it's nice areas, and these areas do have their share of hot dog carts.
-JQP
Chicago has had independent hot dogs stands for years and they are great. In fact, at times I go down there just for them. Litter? Well, how is that any different than someone going to the cookie dough place and taking it outside? Are you telling me that the people of Naperville would litter? I know not are wonderful human beings, but if you are that worried about it you'd have to be saying the majority would & I really do believe the majority of Naperville would be littering. And really, how much does it take to place another trash can or two if need be? What the heck...you don't have a litter law? :-) Well there you go, great way NPD can make more money! ;-) They can earn some of the money back & not fire officers! And lets say there is a bit more littering, have the high school students use it as their community service project. Or your local girl/boy scouts etc can help clean up a bit. Heck, everyone can. I'm not too good to bend over & pick something up & place it in a trash. You see someone littering pick it up in front of them! Tell your child next to them how wrong they were. It is amazing what that will do.
You might attract even more people to shop in Naperville if you did have a few independent carts with hot dogs, some ice cream etc. God knows your businesses need it with the economy now. And what a cheap and yet still lovely date by the riverwalk, a couple of hot dogs and an ice cream...now if they would just bring the movies back on the large screen like when they had The Wizard of Oz you'd be all set!
Of course it does depend on getting to Naperville...OMG...I was attempting to visit 7 churches last night for Holy Thursday, 75th & then when you turn on Washington was pathetic and this was at 7:30pm! I can't even imagine during rush hour. Ended up late for mass at St. Peter. I hope that construction is all done by Summer! And people were complaining about the stop light cameras??? You need more! I said, "Welcome To Naperville" with each car going through red lights, speeding past me and the bar hoppers who think the street is just one big sidewalk. Do they understand the concept of a crosswalk?
BTW...St. Elizabeth Seton had the most beautiful display last night! Incredible! They had a woman also playing the harp & the greeters were so lovely and gave everyone who visited some bread. I just might choose to travel each week to worship there.
Keyboard Rambo,
Maybe next time you will PULL your head firmly out of "where the sun don't shine" and actually READ what was posted BEFORE you attack your keyboard.
"The filth, the noise, the smell, the litter are all something I would think we could all live without in downtown Naperville." Since this sentence is obviously above your level of comprehension.. this was a statement of what it IS like in NYC and a plea not to allow it to happen in Naperville.
"Health inspections in Naperville..."? Clearly Rambo you know nothing or next to nothing about food safety and sanitation. I could give you a walking tour around Naperville and point out HUNDREDS of violations that have existed for YEARS. Restaurant inspections in Naperville are a joke. Chicago shuts these dumps down all the time. When was the last time a Naperville restaurant was shut down? Right, no one can remember the last time.
Portillo never had a hot dog cart. He had a trailer that didn't move around and there were hundreds of trailers and old busses and other shacks all over the Chicago area just like it way back then. Portillo served a crummy hot dog at his original location and still does. At least he has always been consistent crummy. Most of the clowns who go into Portillo never had a real Chicago dog and wouldn't know the difference. Empire? Not hardly. If you know what is going on you would know he has been taking a bath lately and his financial picture isn't good. Krispy Creme cost him a small fortune alone and now those are all long gone. All of his chicken joints are in big trouble too, of course you already knew that.
Most of the people leaving the downtown bars are more interested in quickly and quietly sneaking away before the NPD catches them than they are to be staggering around in a drunken stupor on a well lit street corner waiting for some halfwit street vendor to slop some mustard on a dog. They might as well moon the downtown patrol for lack of being any more obvious.
The only way to make halfway decent money like 40-50K with a push cart required 12-16 days, 7 days a week in the best possible location and you don't get to take days off due to bad weather... you have to be there every day to service your regulars or someone else is going to lure them away. Plus you have got to have nerves of steel in most places to keep the homeless at bay and the street thieves from picking your pockets. What is left over you have to lie to the city and state about sales taxes and skim as much off the top to avoid paying state and federal taxes. Get too greedy and you loose your license and get to go to jail. Do you have any idea how many dogs you got to sell every month to make enough profit just to pay for your own health insurance? Better have though because being outside in the elements every day is hard on the body.
You want to stand outside everyday for 16 hours a day, 7 days a week in January and February in Chicagoland to try to sell hot dogs to no one? Good luck. Even Dairy Queen knows when to shut down for the season.
Anonymous...
Somehow I don't think the filth of NYC is due to just the hot dogs stands?!
I have no doubt there may be violations in any of the restaurants. This is nothing new in many cities & let me tell you Chicago is not immune to it. Ask those who have worked in any of the Chicago restaurants. Usually many are not shut down until they pose some health problem to the public or some disgruntled employee makes some public statement of what is going or an employee does something stupid to an officer's food.
Quite pessimistic and perhaps even grandiose to think one will turn into a NYC, good, bad or otherwise. If something is not working well, like your restaurants are not meeting expectations, then do something about that. Would you be against another restaurant opening up for the same reason? How is it just a problem for the hot dogs stand then? Solve the problem you feel exists.
Anonymous on April 10, 2009 8:41 PM
Most of the clowns who go into Portillo never had a real Chicago dog and wouldn't know the difference.
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Just like most of the underage drinkers in Naperville know to go to a certain liquor establishment on Bailey road to get their liquor? I guess you are "anonymous" on this thread? Where's Ameena when you need her?
Q. Is it legal?
A. Yes, the City Council just made it so
Q. Will this be the only street vendor?
A. NO, The City Council just made it so
Q. What kind of street vendors will we have?
A. Any legal business like the others in this area is now entitled to operate on the sidewalk in front of the existing businesses. Unless the City can show cause to stop them or deny a permit. People selling beads on blankets in front of Talbots and the GAP is a good example.
Q. If someone has to use the potty after eating in the street, where will they go? Which facilities will the street vendors use?
A. City Hall is conveniently located near the street vendors, it's the best location. Lets keep it open 7 x 24 as a public facility.
Anonymous at 8:41pm,you do not have a clear understanding of how the health dept works. Naperville city has nothing to do with it. It is at the county level. DuPage Co. is considered to have the most rigorous health department in terms of policing restaurants in all of Chicagoland. Chicago(Cook Co) is a joke compared to DuPage.
I believe New York's "filth" issue has more to do with the fact that they have no alleys behind the buildings, the way Chicago has. That means they put the garbage out at the curb for pickup. The nice thing in Chicago is that the alleys help keep a lot of that off the street. I have been to New York a few times in the last year, for vacation and visiting NYU with my daughter, so I don't consider it a cesspool the way some people do. However, I am not a fan of Times Square. Too much humanity in a small area for me. But Greenwich Village, by NYU is lovely. And the area by Battery Park is too. Central Park is also beautiful. If you stick to the strictly tourist areas, you see more filth.
Personally, I think the hot dog cart is a great idea, if the price is right. He will be under a ton of scrutiny, so I'm not too worried about cleanliness, trash, etc. I have a feeling he'll be very conscientious about it. Location-wise, I think it would be great if he set up closer to the Riverwalk. That is where I would be more likely to frequent the stand.
GR,
""Health inspections in Naperville..."? Clearly Rambo you know nothing or next to nothing about food safety and sanitation. I could give you a walking tour around Naperville and point out HUNDREDS of violations that have existed for YEARS. Restaurant inspections in Naperville are a joke. Chicago shuts these dumps down all the time. When was the last time a Naperville restaurant was shut down? Right, no one can remember the last time."
Read it again. I never said the City of Naperville was responsible. The staffing level of the county health department is part of the problem. The rest is related to education, training, and lack of quality control.
Considered to be the most rigorous... by who themselves? Give me a break! I could walk into literally any restaurant in Naperville on any day and find food and sanitation violations. I'm not talking about trivial ones either. I'm talking about the serious ones that make people ill.
Yes, I know the rules, what to look for and where, and have been doing it for a long time. The real question is this... if I or anyone else can observe these kinds of violations then why can't the county? Surely they can't all be taking payoffs to look the other way?
By Anonymous ONE on April 10, 2009 11:13 PM
Anonymous on April 10, 2009 8:41 PM
Most of the clowns who go into Portillo never had a real Chicago dog and wouldn't know the difference.
___________________
Just like most of the underage drinkers in Naperville know to go to a certain liquor establishment on Bailey road to get their liquor? I guess you are "anonymous" on this thread? Where's Ameena when you need her?
____________________________________________________________________
Do you think everyone who has an issue with anything that goes on in Naperville is ME. Sorry, I am not Anonymous 841pm. On another sites you are also accusing me of being everyone.
Now whats your problem with the liquor store on Bailey. Why are you libeling it? It has no connection to the Napergate Man or the Napergate Nation. He not only retired from Napergate but he sold his store a decade ago to the best of my knowledge.
I don't even think he lives in Naperville in. I heard he lived in Arizona or Florida.....not 100% sure.
And BTW BHO also left Chicago and lives in the White House.
I think you are a little behind the times. What credibility do you have for libeling a liquor store for no reason?
I think you have lost your bearings in the last few months being obsessed with the Napergate Nation....get a life.
Anon,
I know from first hand experience, owning and operating restaurants in Chicago, Will & DuPage Cos. that DuPage is very rigorous during build-out and operation compared to other areas. We are inspected with greater regularity in DuPage. I could also walk into any restaurant and find a violation. Having a drip in a hand sink is a violation. I would, however challenge you assertion that "literally any restaurant in Naperville" has violations that will make people ill. God forbid someone on these blogs actually says something positive, but DuPage health is run professionally and they do a pretty good job.
If a liquor store with video surveillance and alarms can not be protected from armed robbery how is a hot dog cart going to be protected from armed robbers?
It may be too much of a safety hazard.
Plus where it will get water from.....the fire hydrants? How is the guy going to wash his hand and utensils? How much water can you put in a mobile cart filled with hot dogs and pop?
Allowing a hot dog cart that does not pay rent to compete with stores that pay rent is truly an injustice.
Next thing you know he will find a way to lengthen his cart and sell hamburgers for 4 dollars. Good bye Five Guys and the Five Dollar Hamburgers.
Does this hot dog guy have a relative on the City Council who pushed for the approval of this nonsense?
Does the homeless man also have connections on the City Council? Not even in Chicago can a homeless man set a tent up with a generator on a sidewalk and skip paying rent and taxes so he can have the latest laptop and blog on this site.
Only in Naperville......
Q. If someone has to use the potty after eating in the street, where will they go? Which facilities will the street vendors use?
*****
Give me a break...like people do not leave the other restaurants or bars for that matter & then have to go to the bathroom. Do they go back to the restaurant they came from? Heck no! Ya some go before they leave perhaps but certainly not all. And there are plenty that have to go before they buy a hot dog & drink so what is the difference. Boy talk about searching for any reason here.
Some people will complain about everything & anything. What is the big deal about a hot dog stand? You really think this guy is going to put all the other restaurants out of business. Incredible.
And how do you think all the other hot dog stands operate to get water etc. It isn't like this is a new concept.
Violations that make people ill? I must be missing it because I have not seen anything in the paper with any of the Naperville restaurants causing large numbers of people to go to the hospital ill. If it is as bad as you say, don't you think there would be some consequences? Is this a conspiracy & not being reported in the media?
Actually, the NPD enforces the law against going in public about once a year downtown, which is when you will see 20-40 people ticketed in a two day period. It adds a unique aroma to the parking decks and stairwells.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Give me a break...like people do not leave the other restaurants or bars for that matter & then have to go to the bathroom. Do they go back to the restaurant they came from? Heck no! Ya some go before they leave perhaps but certainly not all. And there are plenty that have to go before they buy a hot dog & drink so what is the difference. Boy talk about searching for any reason here.
One Who Values You,
This new store called Five Guys in downtown just signed a long term lease and will be selling hot dogs.
He may be paying as much as 30 dollars a square foot in rent.
Now assume you owned this store OWVY.
Are you telling me when this Hot Dog Cart pulls in front of your brand new store to compete with you, that you will not be upset?
I have always thought you were not a normal person OWVY.
Now you have confirmed my beliefs.
I don't think you value anyone or capable of valuing anyone other than yourself.
You have probably never run a business and can not comprehend the concept of rent. It may be foreign to you.
I also don't believe you are a professor. Professors usually have some logic, reason and fairness behind what they say.
Hot dog cart vendors,homeless men with laptops,CPD turning ute's in circles,pink I-pods, one blogger with MANY alias',STOP bill AYERS, before he BOMBS-- again,again and again!! hahahahaha never mind the man behind the curtain? HAPPY EASTER NAPER-NATION. million plus$$$$scams welcome to $ll$no$s. and yea Mr. Lincoln is turning over!
Former WV Mom,
"I believe New York's "filth" issue has more to do with the fact that they have no alleys behind the buildings, the way Chicago has. That means they put the garbage out at the curb for pickup."
Not exactly. A lot of New Yorkers are simply pigs. They eat from street vendors and then just dump whatever they have left over or didn't finish on the sidewalk, in the gutter, where ever... they don't care. You will see taxi drivers just dump food out their car window while they are driving or maybe waiting at a light. Absolutely unbelievable, but part of the problem is values and people just don't value cheap, crummy food and as a result don't care about how they get rig of it, especially when it is really bad. For comparison consider how left overs at an expensive restaurant is treated with the "doggie bag" ritual.
The garbage by the curb is only late at night when most everything is closed anyway and that is another aspect of "way of life" in NYC; but not what I was writing about. Of course if you have ever been to Manhattan in July during a garbage strike, and I have, then it becomes a special treat of its own.
Ha, ha, ha...Sounds like nothing but a bunch of upset downtown business owners! Lord forbid that someone else wants to set up shop. What a bunch of yuppie snobs! Your business must really be in turmoil with high prices, terrible service, etc if a hot dog cart guy can ruin everything! Free enterprise-God bless this guy. It sounds like fun.
Lots of Chicagoans and Napevillians are pigs too.
That is the issue. A big issue.
A store owner can not run away when the IRS or IDofRevenue comes knocking.
A hot dog vendor can disappear in a nanosecond.
Most hot dog vendors in New York never heard of the IRS.
Let us hope our Naperville Vendor heard of them and will pay his fair share of taxes since he is operating rent free.
Everyone could make it in this world rent-free.
This is UNFAIR COMPETITION. It is not about JEALOUSY!
Amazed at the Anger,
"Lots of Chicagoans and Napevillians are pigs too."
True, it is just that New Yorkers take it to an much, much higher level.
For example, most have never been in a New York supermarket on an average Sunday evening. Someone from Illinois would be absolutely appalled at what it looks like.
Ever been on an early morning flight OUT of NYC? The floor of the plane looks like a NYC subway car by the time the flight lands at its destination. The same experience does not happen on an early morning flight out of anywhere else.
Civilized people don't act like pigs. Civilized people don't live like pigs. For all of the bragging and boasting that comes out of NYC they still live and act far less civilized than the rest of the country.
I know New York.
People live and act like pigs in NYC.
If someone dies on a Subway his body could be there for a few days before someone calls the NY Toll Authority.
They simply assume he is homeless and sleeping.
Only when the maggets arrive do the pigs of NYC finally call the police.
No kidding.
I am truly glad I live in Naperville.
Does anyone think citizens would step up and help the police in a robbery like took place at the Naperville Liquor Store in NYC? In NYC people keep walking like nothing happened. In Naperville people care and that is why all the armed thugs were caught after a high speed chase through several towns.
There's a hotdog cart at Oakbrook Center Mall. Everyone coexists, the restaurants aren't suffering and the hotdogs smell awesome. I highly doubt people that want a fast hotdog are going to hurt the businesses. There are still going to be people that want to eat at a sitdown restaurant. The hotdog cart is a great option for people with small kids who don't want to sit in a restaurant, people in a hurry, people that don't want to spend $10-$15 to each lunch downtown, people leaving the bars, people on their way to a sporting event. It's one hotdog cart that hopefully sells hotdogs under $5. This comparison of a hotdog cart ruining downtown restaurants is like an excuse that the pedicabs are going to ruin taxi business. The only fast cheap food in downtown is Burger King. Everything else takes too long and costs too much if you have a 30 min. lunch.
Something which might throw a wrench in these downtown Naperville business doomsday scenarios brought about by a hot dog cart is the weather. I'm not sure if you people missed the memo or not, but there's only so many days a year where a hot dog cart can even do business in downtown Naperville.
We have these wonderful things called "rain" and "snow" in the Chicagoland area which makes operating a business that requires fair weather fairly difficult! Since the brick and mortar restaurants in downtown Naperville don't close up shop when it's cold or wet outside, I think they'll manage against the fierce competition of a lone man peddling hot dogs.
...But don't let my logic get in the way of anyone's ranting!
Keyboard Logic,
Your logic is distorted.
One lone man peddling hot dogs could result in peddlers peddling everything. Once the city of Naperville opened the flood gates of peddling the flood gates of lawsuits for anyone who can't obtain a license have also been opened.
One lone man is not fierce competition but 100 peddlers could one day be very fierce competition. They could run many business out of a downtown with numerous vacancies.
Oak Brook Mall charges all peddlers fees or rent. Nothing is free in a mall. Everyone should know that.
How much is the City of Naperville charging this hot dog peddler for his annual license? Nothing!
When it rains peddlers can find a place to move their cart with an overhang. Logic indicates a cart has wheels on it and can move to a drier and protected place.
oh, NO!
Peddlers, peddling everything! They'll put Home Depot out of business! I need a new kitchen sink, I can get one at the downtown Naperville peddlers fair! There will be hundreds of them, rolling their carts about, willy-nilly! Jefferson will need to be widened, to fit a dedicated peddlers lane so that they can move from sheltered area to sheltered area!
Why... why... I bet you'll even be able to buy a peddlers license from a PEDDLER!
nothing will ever be the same! Tis Doom. Tis Gloom. These peddlers will cause my taxes to soar, and my property values to plummet! The Horror!
oh.
wait.
What?
It's a test of the idea, to see if it works at all?
Um.
Never mind.
Next: Doom! and Gloom! - soaring taxes! - plunging property values! Napergate!
and the funny part is, it won't even matter what the subject is.
Glad to see that the city council gave the OK of the steameer. I think this is a great idea and for you holier than thou in Naperville thinking that the vendor is a second class citizen is wrong.
I hope that his business thrives and say what you will, but a little competition among the restaurants and so on are good. Naperville's prices are way too high. But I guess that Yuppies and Dinks dont' see it that way.
God Bless the little guy !!! Remember that the little guy is what built this country not big business.
Have another beautiful day in paradise!
The word on the street is that the hot dog guy is good friends with the DiSantos. As in the two DiSantos that work for the city with one being the husband of Mago Ely, the city lawyer. Pressure was put on council by them to support this vendor. Glad to see three councilmen didn't cave to the "establishment." Insider deal!!
Joe Naper,
Thanks for the inside information.
The NOISEMAKERS on this blog site are clueless to what is happening behind the scenes.
Maybe there is more NAPERGATE going on in this town than we realize.
Mr. 77
No one said the hot dog vender was a second class citizen.
We are saying he has the benefits of no rent or overhead.
He is competing on an unfair playing field.
Now, if Joe Naper's inside information pans out, we find out he is connected to City Hall and possibly Margo Ely, the city lawyer.
Is this not the same lawyer who could not control the out-of- control out-of-house lawyers who milked the taxpayers on the Furstenau legal bills to the tune of about 1.5 million dollars? Has anyone in City Hall reviewed her performance regarding the necessity of retaining all these outside legal firms and her ability to monitor them?
Cathy DiSantos - Naperville Township Highway Department
Dan DiSantos - Assistant to the City Manager, City of Naperville
Michael DiSantos - Assistant City Attorney
Margo Ely - City Attorney
I guess nepotism runs rampant thru City Hall with no checks or balances. And to think Cook County used to be the gold standard for taking care of relatives. What a nice little incestuous bunch don't you think?
Of course we could add in the rest of the DiSantos family members with government jobs in and around Naperville.
Anonymous at 4:48pm
"Next: Doom! and Gloom! - soaring taxes! - plunging property values! Napergate!
and the funny part is, it won't even matter what the subject is. "
Best laugh I have had all week! Thank you!
How is the hot dog guy any different from the catering truck that the city allows to park on the railroad depot platform for at least the last 20 years that I know of?
To Joe Naper, Not Appeasing and Anonymous 9:17 PM and 10:36 PM:
You do realize we are talking about a hot dog cart, don't you? I mean, you may not like the idea, but don't you think it's just a bit "off" to view this development as part of the Establishment Master Plan?
-JQP
JQP,
Others in the past have applied for this right to be a vendor in the downtown.
All were refused.
We are not talking about an Establishment Master Plan or Napergate.
We are talking about a connected hot dog cart owner.
Please read the connections posted by Joe Naper and Anonymous to City Hall.
Again, once you open a can of worms, all the worms can demand to be treated equally and demand their own worm carts.
Apparently everything is part of the Establishment or the Anti-Establishment's Master Plans. Parking garages, city council, hot dog carts... it really doesn't matter. You will just be safe to assume that everything is a conspiracy. Maybe you need to back off on the caffeine a little.
What is the relationship of Ms. Ely to the family mentioned? It seems that her actions in the outsourced lawsuit upset many citizens. Does she have a long term or any cotract at all? Does she only serve at the city's appproval. We would like to see her move on--as in- to the private sector! Ms. Ely pls consider resigning or retiring or family leave,anything just go.
JQP,
Just a hot dog cart... go ahead trivialize this and everything else.
Yeah, you liberals like to nibble around the edges don't you? Just part of your bigger agenda isn't it?
See there are some like you who would do nothing until we did end up with street vendors lining the sidewalks and then give up like NYC has because it is so totally out of control. And then there are those who simply say we shouldn't go there so we won't have to deal with the problems later. And since you are clueless about the type of problems these push carts bring try talking to a NYC cop for starters and educate yourself to the facts about the type of people who seek out this way of life and why. Street vendors are commonly controlled by organized crime, gangs, and other assorted low life's who like to try to slip thru the cracks of society by dealing with a strictly cash economy that is difficult to trace or otherwise account. Merchandise sold on a street corners is commonly stolen or counterfeit often the source of income to support a drug habit. And there are a heck of a lot of street vendors who use being a street vendor as a ruse to try to disguise that they are nothing more than a front for selling drugs. Yeah, but you already knew that all of those white collar drug users coming out of Manhattan office buildings at lunch were getting "a little something extra" slipped in with their daily hot dog from the push cart down the street didn't you?
There are no shortage of ideas on how we can improve and make downtown and all of Naperville better. For some of us this vision simply doesn't include hot dog carts and other street vendors. The potential problems far outweigh any benefits of providing yet another cheap, junk food meal.
Face it there are plenty of fairs and other events around the metro area where a push cart vendor can go to try to eke out a living peddling hot dogs. There simply isn't any pent up demand for push cart vendors in Naperville. Even existing fast food joints are having trouble making it in this economy and we have seen several close in the last few months. It's not been that many years since the last time someone had the "unique" idea of peddling hot dogs in downtown. It didn't work then and it most likely won't work now.
We all know what Thomas Tusser said about a fool and his money... Some people just have to learn these lessons the hard way.
Joe Naper,
Boyajain, Miller and Wherli were the three that voted against it. I thought they were the "establishment?!"
Maybe Krause, Furstenau and Dunn are going to get free hot dogs for life.
Anonymous wrote:
Just a hot dog cart... go ahead trivialize this and everything else.
I didn't need to trivialize this---it was already trivial.
Yeah, you liberals like to nibble around the edges don't you? Just part of your bigger agenda isn't it?
Okay, now you have me confused on the whole liberal vs. conservative thing: I thought fostering the growth of businesses, encouraging competition, and reducing or eliminating "red tape" that gets in the way of the small businessman were issues of concern to conservatives; when did that change?
-JQP
-JQP
Can of Worms Opened wrote:
Others in the past have applied for this right to be a vendor in the downtown.
All were refused.
Really? Who? And, when?
And:
We are talking about a connected hot dog cart owner.
Please read the connections posted by Joe Naper and Anonymous to City Hall.
We're not talking about Dwight Yackley; we're talking about a guy who wants to have a hot dog cart. If he wanted to open a sit-down restaurant instead, would that also be taboo? Is it your position that anyone who has friends who work for the city should have no dealings whatsoever with the city even to the point of not applying for a business license?
Again, once you open a can of worms, all the worms can demand to be treated equally and demand their own worm carts.
This is not an all-or-nothing deal, despite what you say. The city will not have to grant a license to every wanna-be street vendor. There is plenty of precedent for restricting this kind of thing.
-JQP
Good grief, Anon, how can a hot dog cart be such an insidious threat to our way of life? Hot dog carts are as American as, well, hot dogs! And this is on a one-year trial basis. If folks litter with their used hot dog wrappers or the vendor is suspected of using the cart as a front for illegal activities or it doesn't work out for any other reason, the trial will simply be ended and not repeated. Easy enough.
And I don't think a hot dog cart has an unfair business advantage. It's the brick and mortar eateries that have the advantages in the way of shelter from bad weather, air conditioning on hot days, heat on cold ones, varied menus, tables and chairs where people can relax and stay awhile, and bathrooms. A hot dog cart will be convenient for folks who want a quick bite while walking around downtown or shopping. Those who want to relax and have a meal and a cold brew will still go to the eateries.
Relax already and have a dog. I'll take mustard and relish on mine!
Oh, What the?
I'm afraid that you have it wrong, and that it is Anonymous at 10:15 a.m. who has it right...
All it is going to take is a small series of street vendors, starting with this one temporary vendor license, for Naperville to turn into midtown Manhattan! Why all those white collar drug users in downtown Naperville will be leaving their offices at lunch time for a little something extra! Everyone knows that all street vendors, and particularly in suburbia, are drug dealers, counterfeiters, and nothing more than a front for organized crime!
Why, this is an affront to out way of life! What will happen next? I can tell you, but it's going to be very scary, so sit tight for a minute! Those liberal Elites, that's what! Before you know it, everyone in Naperville will be eating Hot Dogs with ARUGULA on them! Everyone! Quelle Horror!
Trivialize this at your peril people!
The streets will run with trash created by a hot dog cart!
Illness will run rampant, as everyone knows there will be no sanitation! Not at all! We'll be laughingstocks! Street vendors will multiply, and then? GYPSIES! Yes, that's right! Fortune Tellers, and WORSE! TIMES SQUARE, right here in River City! And then, worst of all?
MORE VENDORS!
Oh.
Wait.
A one year temporary license.
Never mind.
This is the most fun I've had in weeks.
From the people who believe that a single hot dog vendor will turn downtown into Calcutta, to the people who think Tony Soprano will be sprinkling celery salt on our hot dogs, to the conspiracy theorists who believe that the Naperville city leaders are behind this insidious plan ...
You folks are a hoot.
Me? I'm looking forward to grabbing a diet Coke and a hot dog (mustard, a little relish, no onions, thank you) and sitting on the Riverwalk to enjoy the day.
And don't worry. I'll bring a napkin and throw my trash in a can.
Now assume you owned this store OWVY.
Are you telling me when this Hot Dog Cart pulls in front of your brand new store to compete with you, that you will not be upset?
*************
Logic...how about the logic you are missing if another restaurant wants to sell hot dogs? They can't? What happened to free enterprise. I guess that does not exist in Naperville. How about the same hot dogs? Ah anyone on the blog not like Portillos hot dogs but like Boz or some other place. People will go to what they like. You know we have 3 or 4 mexican restaurants in close proximity where I live...5 Guys can't handle that...they better get better hot dogs then.
The napergate man would expose this. I guess you need video tape to get ahead in this town. Otherwise you end up in the kangaroo courts.
Margot Ely is well known to spend MILLIONS of taxpayer money on hot dogs every year. That is because she hopes one day spin through the revolving door between government service and meat processors. It is appalling. If she were really working on our behalf, she would put CAPS on the amount the city spends on hot dogs.
This is just Napergate all over again. He retired, I think. But Furstenau would never be caught dead with a hot dog stuffed in his mouth. Even if he didnt have the courage of the Napergate man who ran his 10 year legal defense fund with only $75K and a pack of chewing gum. The city lost the records on what they spent! Just ask the Naperville Sun!
Hot dogs are just the latest way the establishment is trying to get their pensions even though the rest of us have lost ours. But not the Napergate man! I am his biggest fan! Long live Furstenau!
By Anonymous on April 12, 2009 1:41 PM
Former WV Mom,
"I believe New York's "filth" issue has more to do with the fact that they have no alleys behind the buildings, the way Chicago has. That means they put the garbage out at the curb for pickup."
Not exactly. A lot of New Yorkers are simply pigs.
*************
So then is your point Naperville residents are also pigs & just have not had a reason to show it & now with a hot dog stand they will show the lack of values you say NYers have???
By No Kidding...
In Naperville people care
*****
But wait someone doesn't want the cart because they feel you will have trash & pee all over your petunias! So which is it? Will they be pigs or not?
Keyboard Rambo...HA! God forbid someone use logic on this blog! ;-)
Not appeasing...Yep, each of my extended family members will be asking the board to have a cart next week. Naperville will have the finest persian rugs for sale and paintings of Elvis on Velvet in just a few weeks. And I think Billy Mays has asked for his own cart! You won't have to go Sam's Club with your sun glasses on to get your Oxiclean & Orange Glo!
I'm surprised any of you use technology. You know drugs are sold using cell phones and computers. I bet you would have a problem if the girl scouts wanted a cart to sell their cookies! You know there are cities who do have cart vendors that are not a problem. Why just pick one case where there are many other factors which cause the problems you mention?
DS,
What does this hot dog mess have to do with the Napergate Man, Napergate or the Establishment.
It is about a hot dog vendor who is cheating by not paying rent while his competitors pay rent.
He will not provide a bathroom. Thus his customers will use the restrooms of those who pay rent up the Wazoo. City of Naperville requires 2 120 sq. ft. bathrooms which translates to $7200 dollars annually just for the bathroom space based on 30 dollars a sq.ft.
When they are done eating their HDs they will use these bathrooms and use water, electricity, toilet paper and towels paid by the store owners. Employees of the store owners making 9 bucks an hour will have to clean the mess left behind.
There is no way if I was the owner of Five Guys who just signed a 15 year lease agree to a God D@mn Hot Dog Cart being in front of my store taking away half my hot dog business. All you anti-Napergate bashers on here are just talkers or have no concept for the value of MONEY.
If you anti-Napergate guys owned FIVE GUYS and saw this hog dog vendor pull up in front of your store to sell hot dogs, you would boil and steam him and sell him as hot dogs. I know I will as long as the NPD did not see me...lol...
I think we will be hearing from Five Guys within the next year. Mark my words.
Oh dear God! The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
It will soon be raining cats and tax evading hot dogs!
Run out of your homes and into the streets!
For the Napergate man, you may indeed meet!
A butcher, a baker, a candlestick maker,
city council member, homeless squatter, mayor,
who know who he may be?!
Maybe he's the guy who will hand you
a wrapped hot dog covered with celery seeds!
Establishment, Anti-Establishment, I don't know...
It's a little obscure and difficult to follow,
But someone here spends oodles of time
blogging so that their 'enemy' may GO!
Don't worry about the topic,
the party line's the same.
The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
It's a part of the game.
Hey Chicken Little,
Did you know Kentucky Fried Chicken on Ogden in Naperville just went out of business without even a Chicken Little Cart stationing in front of it. Running a business is difficult and very competitive without no rent freebie carts stationed in front of your business.
On another blog, I suggested using my tax refund to open an Ice Cream Cart in front of the Cold Stone Creamery.
I am sure the Cold Stone Creamery would not think it was a Napergate Conspiracy if someone stationed an ice cream cart in front of his store. He would be going for the jugular.
Instead of writing stupid poems that don't rhyme or have reason why don't you vist Cold Stone Creamery and ask them how they would feel about an Ice Cream Cart right in front of their business. I hope you walk out alive Chicken Little. You are a little chicken who talks big. I dare you!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PS. Kentucky Fried Chicken should have fried you before they went out of business. What a lost opportunity.
You ask:
"What does this hot dog mess have to do with the Napergate Man, napergate or the Establishment?"
-----------------------------------------------------
I am SHOCKED to see you ask such a question! I thought EVERYTHING on these blogs somehow linked back to the napergate man? Everyone needs videotape! Thats how you stay out of kangaroo court. That's how you avoid paying up the Wazooooooooo!!! Thats why it takes courage to post under a psuedonym which you change several times in one blog! That's why it's necessary to blog, comment on your own post, then comment on the comment! All because of.....
N A P E R G A T E. (cue the sinister music, please)
FACT: Furstenau voted FOR the hot dog guy. FACT: Dan DiSanto went to high school with the hot dog guy (watch the council meeting). FACT: Dan DiSanto is married to Margo Ely.
Wow BHO, Ameena, et al, perhaps you are so completely anti-hot dog because you are a vegetarian? Would you eat a lamb-dog? Are you Five Guys? I thought you were more like 500 guys, but I lost count long ago. Maybe a little protein would sooth your soul?
So sorry your job is in the tank and you have to take out a home equity to pay your taxes and perhaps your children should go to a university that is less than 30,000.00 per year, they do exist.
Perhaps you should grab a cheaper lunch downtown...I hear there is going to be this hot dog guy, charging less than some other places. Help bring your bottom line back in line, you know?
FACT: A hot dog sounds really good right now.
Liz,
"Apparently everything is part of the Establishment or the Anti-Establishment's Master Plans. Parking garages, city council, hot dog carts... it really doesn't matter. You will just be safe to assume that everything is a conspiracy. Maybe you need to back off on the caffeine a little."
Back off on the caffeine? Nah, not me. In fact I just popped a couple of blues just for you!
JQP,
"Okay, now you have me confused on the whole liberal vs. conservative thing: I thought fostering the growth of businesses, encouraging competition, and reducing or eliminating "red tape" that gets in the way of the small businessman were issues of concern to conservatives; when did that change?"
So if I wanted to set up a push cart selling sex toys in front of the children's museum I would have your blessings? Visible, high traffic area adjacent to the train station. Doesn't compete with any downtown or nearby merchants. Steady stream of target age and gender profile customers going in and out of the museum all day long and commuting on the train. No waste. No litter. No water or sewer needed. No safety or sanitation issues. No smells. No noise. I'd be a perfect neighbor. Isn't free enterprise wonderful!
I think Chris needs to change the tag line of the Naperville Potluck from "A forum for comments about Naperville news and issues." to "Napergate and the most ridiculous straw man arguments imaginable."
Because clearly a sex toy shop on the steps of the Children's Museum is the same as a hot dog cart.
Keyboard Rambo,
Anonymous who wants to sell sex toys is not ME. Sorry to disappont you.
It is you and others who can not get off the Napergate Thing. I am discussing Hot Dog and Ice Cream carts and you guys are discussing Napergatge non-stop. Even writing poems and lyrics. It is you who make Napergate everything...not ME. You guys want to make these carts a Napergate Conspiracy....how silly!
I discussed Napergate during the Furstenau Case extensively because I saw great relevance. I still do. So did the Naperville Sun. I discussed Napergate when discussing government waste because the Napergate Man founded his movement on government waste and unbearable taxes.
As I said before I do not see what the hell Hot Dog and Ice Cream Carts have to do with Napergate or the Napergate Man. This is a case where I don't want to see these vendors get a free ride on the backs of the downtown store owners who pay rents up the wazooo. We have over 25 vacancies at street level downtown. Let us lower the rents and have these vendors rent space and put them on an equal playing field. If they have a superior product they will succeed. If their products sucks they will fail. A very simple concept.
Anyone can sell anything from a cart with no rent, no CAM, no real estate tax, no insurance and no overhead and make money. The gross profit margin is all profit. In a real business the net margin is the only profit. Does anyone blogging know the difference?
Now let us not bring Napergate up in each blog and blame me because I brought it up in the Furstenau case. Speaking of Furstenau does anyone know how it all ended up? Did they settle behind closed doors or how did it exactly end? Was there a dismissal in return of forfeiting claims to legal fees by both sides? Sorry to get a little off topic but I was curious. Feel free to answer my questions on the Furstenau Thread if you would like so we stay on topic as much as possible.
***************************************************************************************************
PS. I have no affiliation with Five Guys or Cold Stone Creamery. I am just defending them against an infiltrations of potential carts downtown by what appears to be Margo Ely's relatives and friends according to Joe Naper. I do not know Joe Naper or anything about his credibility. But since it was printed on this blog site and not refuted I have to assume it has some credence. I am sure if it was not true, CM Bob would have told us by now.
I am with Rambo.
After reading some of the comments on these blogs, maybe Chris should just change the tag line of Naperville Potluck to read, "A forum for some Naperville citizens to offer their opinions about Naperville News while others who should be taking their meds just ramble on and on and on without filters". Too long? How about, "Naperville Potluck, enter at your own risk".
I have no problem with a hotdog vendor in Naperville.
I do not understand why we continue to allow a man with a generator, laptop, holiday lights etc. to live on Chicago Ave. this has been going on for years! Why is he not asked to leave?
What is the City's liability if he becomes ill when the temperature is below zero and he is not escorted to a warm shelter? What would happen if many others decided to pitch a tent on the sidewalk and live there?
Naperville does not even allow us to put our garbage out the night before garbage day because that is littering. You need a permit to close off your block for a neighborhood party! You need a permit for almost everything, except for living on the sidewalk in the center of town, as the greeting committee.
We pay high taxes for the privledge to live in this wonderful City!
Many cities have ordinances to prevent their towns from becoming places where you have to be afraid to walk down the street and step over people, why don't we?
We should have empathy for those who are less fortunate, but we don't have to give up our rights to help them.
This is a disgrace!
Enough is enough!
Anonymous,
Hot dogs = sex toys? Nice red herring.
-JQP
Keyboard Rambo,
Of course it is. It is just business. It is just free enterprise. It doesn't matter what you or I or anyone else thinks or feel about the product. I could give you a whole laundry list of other equally or even more questionable kinds of businesses that would raise some eyebrows or cause a few gasps of surprise, but the reality is that so long as the products/services that could potentially be sold thru a push cart are not illegal there is very little that can be done to stop commerce this way... once you set the precedent. Otherwise a whole bunch of restraint of trade, monopoly, special treatment, etc issues will develop that will cause a whole lot of legal issues and lawsuits that city hall will have to deal with and be distracted from other more important city business. Turn down any legal product just because someone doesn't think it is "appropriate" and discrimination will be the first argument we hear.
In the end we will have to wonder if the revenue from the sales tax collected or other permits is even close to breaking even with the cost of dealing with these issues.
Oh my god some of you need some sleep or something. I agree sex toys by a children's museum is not the same idea.
Now an ice cream stand by Cold Stone...again, if you can't logically figure out that some may just want a popsicle or quick cheap fudgesicle rather than expensive peanut butter and chocolate combo from Cold Stone I really wonder. And it doesn't mean this same person will not want Cold Stone also from time to time. It isn't like that is it, some people will never go to Cold Stone now. In fact, the ice cream stand even a few blocks away may make a person think ice cream & then say hey I'd rather have Cold Stone & walk all the way down to them when maybe they would not have had they not had that reminder the stand provided. It is the same thing with the hot dog stand, perhaps someone will see the stand & say you know I'd rather 5 Guys they taste better. I may see Dairy Queen driving and say I'd rather Cold Stone or Baskin Robbins or even a M&M one from McDonalds & drive even out of my way for it instead.
I think it's safe to say Anonymous won't be applying for that sex toy cart license today. He's probably out at the tea bag rally!
JQP,
"Hot dogs = sex toys? Nice red herring."
From that statement I'm not sure what you do with or to YOUR hot dogs, but that wasn't what I had in mind. Not at all.
Just a real cart selling real products. See that is where the problems start to nibble away at the edges... some might not think it is a good idea, some might not think it is appropriate or disagree for any number of reasons. But it is a legal product to be sold without restriction in the state of Illinois regardless of personal opinion. So even though some or even most might not like there isn't anything that could be done to stop it.
Be careful what you wish for... as in the case of a hot dog push cart, because you might just end up with a lot of other things you never envisioned.
Anonymous wrote:
But it is a legal product to be sold without restriction in the state of Illinois regardless of personal opinion. So even though some or even most might not like there isn't anything that could be done to stop it.
Not quite. Cities can and do use zoning laws to enforce the locations of such businesses. Cities also have the right to limit the number of licenses they grant to street vendors, as well as what products they may sell. Despite what you think, the granting of one license to one hot dog cart vendor on a trial basis will not inevitably or even likely lead to downtown Naperville becoming a vast bazaar of street vendors selling products both legal an illegal. You are over-reacting.
-JQP
But I *want* a vast bazaar of street vendors! Think of how interesting that would be! Far better than the mass produced chain restaurants we have now, but that's just my preference.
Truly, out of the varied subjects I've read on this blog lately, this is far and away the oddest one. Some see conspiracies, some see downtown turning into Manhattan, some see sex toy vendors, some make jokes about Napergate while others get all worked up about how that doesn't really apply in this case.
Then, there is 'rent man' also known as ice cream cart, and whom I suspect is Sybil, again - here is a concept for you to think about, rent man. The reason people pay rent is so that they an have that physical structure. If you think that doesn't give them many, many advantages that are probably worth every penny, then I'll guess you haven't thought it through. Much as I hope to have the occasional hot dog from a cart like this, that will be on a lovely spring or summer day. When the weather is bad, when I'm not in a hurry, when I have a meeting over lunch, I won't be having food from a street vendor, even if it is the best hot dog ever.
A licensing fee? Absolutely. But charging rent is ludicrous! Think it through, and think about what it would take to do this kind of work.............
Don't most people marry someone they meet at work or school?
Why is it a problem here?
If some has a corruption or incompetence claim to make against these employees, they should make it.
Otherwise, this seems way out of bounds to me.
If you are looking for problems, look at who funded the City Council candidates and see what you can find.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
By Hot Dawgs on April 14, 2009 10:01 PM
FACT: Furstenau voted FOR the hot dog guy. FACT: Dan DiSanto went to high school with the hot dog guy (watch the council meeting). FACT: Dan DiSanto is married to Margo Ely.
Oh & don't forget this little hot dog stand, which is going to just turn Naperville into a vast bizarre...oh I mean bazaar :-) (Must be a Fredian due to all the bizarre posts!) will be bringing in so many people (not to mention drug dealers with their fancy cars) you'll need another parking garage! HA!
One Who Values You,
I once respected you. You seem more like a jokester these days.
You guys have been mocking me for complaining about higher taxes and governmenrt waste. Well, today over 400 people showed up at City Hall to protest higer taxes and government waste. I was not all 400 of these people. And it was certainly not a Napergate Conspiracy but a grass roots movement just like in the Napergate Dayus. It was beautiful to see people finally get out and protest.
Yes, a hot dog stand could evolve into a bazaar one day. It is a slippery slope. You can not tell the next hot dog cart owner he can not compete and that Margo Ely's friends and relatives have a monopoly on hot dog carts in Naperville...unless you want to spend 2 million dollars all over again on legal fees and this time lose.
This country does not allow monopolies. Allowing only one hot dog cart to operate in Naperville is granting him a monopoly. The city of Naperville had no right to limit the number of licensese to 1. They violated the letter and the spirit of the constituion so Ely's friends will have a monopoly in town. This is no laughing matter, OWVU. Try being serious instead of acting like the resident clown day and night on this blog site. It is time for you to start acting like the Professor you claim you are instead of a circus clown.
JQP,
"Not quite. Cities can and do use zoning laws to enforce the locations of such businesses. Cities also have the right to limit the number of licenses they grant to street vendors, as well as what products they may sell."
It is possible that this might be true somewhere in this vast country of our... like Alabama which gained notoriety for banning the sale of all sex toys in the state... there are no existing laws in the state of Illinois that would allow any restriction or prohibition. It is simply a legal product.
As to the restricting the number of licenses there may be some validity in that from a public safety standpoint. The number will be greater than 1 and smaller than something that is perceived to be a hazard. Once a city opens the barn doors they can't artificially set a limit in a free marketplace, competitive economy less it be charged with a whole host of illegal actions. While cities can create certain laws they are also obligated to comply with other laws as well.
The sale of certain products can certainly be regulated... drugs, tobacco, alcohol, etc. Certain products can even be restricted for sale to minors or in the case of alcohol those under 21. But otherwise legal products can not otherwise restrict the sale of products which are not regulated.
Ummm I'm sorry if you were under the impression that professors have no sense of humor. Wait let me think of all of the ones I know...I'm not sure where you would have gotten that misperception. Now you may not like their particular type of humor. HA! The Biology & Accounting prof I know are a bit different but...ha! But then again, engineers, policemen, lawyers, doctors etc all have "different" styles of humor.
Complaining about trying out one hot dog stand to see what happens is very silly! I didn't create the humor! Sometimes life is just funny! If you do not understand that the other hot dog restaurants in structures also do not have a monopoly, then I'm not sure how to respect you. I'm not sure how large you feel 400 is but out of hmm last I saw Naperville was over 136,000 residents...that is less than .003%! Ok, so some were working & perhaps could not get away, some are students & young children, someone can get the population for adults & we can refigure but that is certainly not a huge number. And how does that have anything to do with a hot dog stand which is what this blog is all about.
Some of you think it is a conspiracy with some particular board members. You know IF someone is not the most ethical person, sometimes they do agree and do things that others who are ethical also do. They are not unethical in everything sometimes or do agree with ethical people on some things. We like to separate them though "Those unethical people" because we don't like to think they are like us at all. Simple Ingroup Outgroup Bias. If they are different than us then we would never do something like them and we are better than them. If they like it, it must be unethical! Wow!
Just wait & see. If the stand creates a mess then deal with it and if it doesn't work you can revoke it. Do you really think if you change your mind & decide not to later continue this service it will cause irrevocable damage? I never thought Naperville would be a city which would not take some chances and try things. And what in life ever works out perfectly? Don't stop doing things because you see a few problems...just find solutions to those problems.
I really can't see how buying a pop/soda from this vendor is going to make me need to go to the bathroom anymore than the water bottle I'm bringing with me from home when I go shopping. Are there really going to be a ton more in Barnes & Noble just to use the bathroom? And even if there was a bit of an increase, they may like it. If they are like me they will see a book on their way out & an hour later they are leaving spending too much! HA! Hmmm can I change my position on this...now it will make me spend too much money in B&N! Maybe the hot dog guy can work out some type of discount with B&N...2 hot dogs & a book...HA!
By Anonymous on April 15, 2009 9:43 PM
The sale of certain products can certainly be regulated... drugs, tobacco, alcohol, etc. Certain products can even be restricted for sale to minors or in the case of alcohol those under 21. But otherwise legal products can not otherwise restrict the sale of products which are not regulated.
Anonymous,
Under the continuing and accelerating World state of emergency, a second hot dog cart will contribute to global warming and may push the planet over the edge. To prevent the disaster:
*The Parents of the 2nd vendor will need to be taxed for pro-creating a carbon emitting unit that degrades the environment. Human infestation is ruining the planet! The tax money will be redistributed to someone who pays no taxes but is likely to vote the right way.
*All street vendors will need to use wind turbines or solar cells attached to their carts to generate the energy to keep the dogs warm. On cloudy days, they can run back and forth to spin the propeller. Al Gore's smart investors will make a killing and be able to plow the profits back into politicians.
*The hot dogs need to be transported from the solar powered meat packer via horse and wagon, as long as the horses are not flagellant. Methane emissions from farm animals are destroying the atmosphere. On cloudy days, no hot dogs.
*The soles on the vendors shoes will have to be made from organic materials since the rubber is made from planet-killing-carbon-rich-oil and manufactured with dirty sources of energy like; Hydro, Coal, Nuclear, Natural Gas and solar panels located in environmentally sensitive areas like deserts.
*If the vendor decides to grow fruit or vegetables as small farmer, instead of buying from the big multinationals, they will need to have reams of paperwork for each vegetable and disclosure forms for his customers to sign or they will be fined out of business and may be imprisoned for creating a public hazard with fresh veggies.
*If the street vendors sell their hot dogs at a TEA party; They will be photographed by Homeland Security as potential terrorists.
Homeland Security will suspect them of being:
-Veterans
-Not supporting Abortion
-Not supporting Big Government
-Not supporting Bailouts
-Not supporting Gay Marriage
-Not supporting Amnesty
-Not supporting nationalization of the Banks, the Schools, the Auto companies, the medical system, small farms etc etc etc...........
-Voting for a third party
-Buying a gun legally
-Being a White Supremest, even if they are from India or China.
*Once identified, the street vendor will be investigated to discover if they take their kids to hear hate speech (the bible is full of it) on Saturdays or Sundays from their Rabbi, Priest or Minister, give them a tax audit to let them know they are vulnerable, threaten the street vendor's license and financial ruin if they don't inform on their customers. Maybe the vendors can steer the conversations towards gardening and find out who is buying fertilizer in April and which news shows they are watching.
In the end, if the vendor cooperates, the Govt. will allow him to turn up the heat on his house during the winter from 60F to 65F via the smart grid as a reward for good behavior. His wife will not only find out that she has a life threatening condition, but will be told that there is a fix and its available at one of the special Party Member hospitals instead of just stabilizing her and sending her home to die as quickly and inexpensively as possible.
If the Govt and Courts run into any legal opposition on Constitutional grounds, they can always choose to ignore the Constitution and Bill of Rights and look to foreign countries Legal Systems and Laws for guidance.
Its a Brave New Total Government Control World out there, its for our own safety :-)
Anonymous wrote:
As to the restricting the number of licenses there may be some validity in that from a public safety standpoint. The number will be greater than 1 and smaller than something that is perceived to be a hazard. Once a city opens the barn doors they can't artificially set a limit in a free marketplace, competitive economy less it be charged with a whole host of illegal actions.
It sounds to me like you are disagreeing with yourself here, but the first two sentences of your paragraph trump that last sentence: public safety is certainly a very legitimate reason for a city to restrict the number of licenses.
As for restricting what can be sold and where, cities can and do use zoning laws to control the location of adult bookstores, adult "entertainment", etc. I don't know if sex toys could be included under such a restriction, but there is an easy solution if you are really worried about seeing sex toy carts in downtown Naperville: you only allow licenses to people who are selling food.
-JQP
Peoria Ordinance regulating sidewalk vendors. Note how it deals with location, adjoining property owners, cleanliness, etc.
http://www.municode.com/Resources/gateway.asp?pid=10183&sid=13
Boy that link didn't work right. Look at Chapter 18, Article XII
JQP,
"You only allow licenses to people who are selling food."
NIce idea, but how much are we willing to spend defending a local ordinance if someone wants to sell beads or sharpen knives or anything else from a push cart? Just go into any mall to get an idea of what kind of merchandise can be sold from "kiosk"... especially all of the new ones that set up just for a holiday. Once you cross the line the game is definitely over and I'm not convinced the line can be held anyway. If a person is able to meet all of the other license requirements it is pretty hard for the government to restrict the sale to just food. What about packaged food not ready for consumption? What about pet food or pet treats to encourage pet owners to come downtown? There are more shades of gray to this than appears.
Heh! Chocolate Sex Toys...that would be my most favorite business in Naperville!
You people all need to get off your high horses. It's a d*mn hot dog cart! Many cities big & small allow such things and the world does not end. We need to stop freaking out about minor things. Naperville is not some idyllic paradise. It never has been. It never will be. It is a human community in which the majority of normal people have no issue with this. If you don't like it, don't frequent the business. Let the consumers have their say.
And as for the "fairness" argument around rents, what would he be getting for his "rent"? He is paying a fee to the city for the use of the sidewalk space...that is his rent. The other establishments are paying building owners for a developed space as well as maintenance, signage, etc. There is nothing unfair about this.
I wonder some times about this community having completely lost touch with the real world....
By One Who Values You on April 15, 2009 11:17 PM
I'm not sure how large you feel 400 is but out of hmm last I saw Naperville was over 136,000 residents...that is less than .003%! Ok, so some were working & perhaps could not get away, some are students & young children, someone can get the population for adults & we can refigure but that is certainly not a huge number.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OWVY,
First you and your ilk think only I will show up. I expected 200 and it is being reported 400-500 showed up. Now you are using fuzzy math to discredit the demonstration against higher taxes and govt. waste.
Since no showed up in opposition, one can also conclude that the entire population is fed up with increased taxes and govt. waste except for those benefitting such as police, fire fighters and city employees.
Go ahead and give the police the 6% raise they want and pay the respective higher real estate taxes that result. I commend the new City Manager for standing up to the union and offering them 1.5% and not a penny more. The police want to take the City and taxpayers to arbitration to get their 6%. They are not willing to take a penny less.
The true face of the Naperville Police Dept. finally reared its head. I have been telling bloggers for a long time they are about enriching themselves at taxpayer expense. What more proof do you want? In a recession when we are taking pay cuts and losing our jobs and buying power they want a 6% raise. They are not even appreciative that we let them retire at age 52 after 30 years with 75% of the final and highest pay. They are not even appreciative when we look the other way while in some cases they give themselves late career raises and promotions for the purpose of further fattening their fat pensions.
You, TB and the Old Joe should just empty your bank accounts and give them to the NPD. I suspect most residents in Naperville feel enough is enough. I began warning 2 years ago and now it is all coming true. Maybe I was one before. But now I am 500 and growing without even the use of cloning. Soon I hope to be 143,000 residents as it is just a matter of time everyone speaks up and says ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.
______________________________________________________________________________________________
PS. I am also "Those Who Do Not Vote will Pay Dearly." I will not be using that handle anymore sine the election is over and it has become obsolete. How is that for disclosure, Mr. John Q. Public!
Anonymous,
How many sex toy carts did you see in New York?
-JQP
P.s. If your prediction comes true, and downtown is overrun with pushcarts selling merchandise of all types, we can always move to get rid of all of them and return to square one. For now, we have one vendor with one license, and a temporary one at that. Let's see how it goes.
Anonymous,
"Let's see how it goes."
So Naperville is somehow obligated to be the guinea pig for every half-baked, hair brained, or recycled idea that anyone can come up with just because they want to turn a buck on the cheap in our community?
That is an insult and affront to the established business community. These people have invest several hundred thousands of dollars trying to be successful and trying to help build a successful business community. Everything they do right and everything the downtown alliance and Chamber of Commerce does to entice people to come downtown is the result of years of hard work and some hard earned money put into advertising and marketing.
This hot dog peddler wants to "ride the draft" and siphon money away that he isn't entitled to, didn't help bring to downtown, and didn't contribute one dime towards the marketing and advertising. For a couple of hundred bucks he wants to swoop in and skim the gravy off the top.
Five Guys and many other places just like it downtown have made a long-term financial commitment to downtown... someone reported a 15 year commitment. When the hot dog peddler is ready to make a 15 year commitment to our city and the downtown business community then I might be coaxed into saying "Let's see how it goes." Personally I don't see him making it for 15 weeks or even 15 months.... much less 15 years.
Anonymous wrote:
Personally I don't see him making it for 15 weeks or even 15 months.... much less 15 years.
Then why on Earth are you getting so worked up about it???
JQP,
Since you are either too dense or too stupid... let me spell it out for you:
No rent
No utilities
No real estate taxes
Free use of the public way
It is simply unfair to established businesses.
It would have a competitive advantage.
It is not a level playing field.
None of the fees or fire / building code requirements will be equal or even proportionate to what is required of existing businesses.
It is a sweetheart deal.
It sets a precedent.
It would be a monopoly.
It will result in an increase in complaints to the city.
Existing businesses will end up subsidizing some expenses directly attributable to push carts.
Big Fat...
So what if you expected 200 & got 400-500? Where is what I did fuzzy math? I used your population & said raw what the percentage was. I said if you know just adult population we can recalculate. That is not fuzzy math.
Talk about fuzzy math...those who don't show up agree with you. OMG! And btw this is suppose to be a post on a hot dog stand & not taxes & police raises. But yes, I would still give them that raise. Teachers are getting about 4% & they are risking their lives & dealing with more since the economy is bad. Crime does go up when the economy gets worse. I'm sure you would want your raise as high as you could get it also. We all want it when it is ourselves but no way should someone else get something I'm not. They deserve what they can get for what they go through. Next time you see one, buy them a hot dog! :-)
Love the Global Warming post someone had! ;-)
And Chocolate Sex Toys...oh ya that will do well! HA!
By Anonymous on April 17, 2009 12:25 AM
JQP,
Since you are either too dense or too stupid... let me spell it out for you:
No rent
No utilities
No real estate taxes
etc.,etc., etc.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Very well said Anonymous.
Thanks for explaining what I have been trying to convey in so many fewer words. You were right to the point.
Maybe others will finally GET IT.
The only thing you forgot to mention is this SWEETHEART DEAL was given to a friend of a city insider. Otherwise, you nailed it right on the head.
I do object to your calling JQP stupid but he has got the Old Joe in him suddenly and getting under people's skin with his slicing, dicing and dancing around every issue. In recent days, he lost all his principles and is arguing for the sake of arguing in a nonsensical manner. I once truly admired him as the most level headed blogger this blog site has even seen. I don't know what happened to him. Maybe, it is not the real JQP and someone stole his handle. The old JQP never wrote long essays. This new JQP has been writing essays suddenly.
____________________________________________________________________
PS. On second thought Anonymous you forgot to mention he is not paying CAM or INSURANCE as all other retailers must pay.
Anonymous,
LOL! Your arguments about unfair advantages have been dealt with effectively by other posters on this blog; the same goes for some of your other points. For the rest, I guess we'll just if it results in the end of civilization as we know it.
-JQP
I saw the protesters, there were not 400-500 people there...Which person were you?
No rent - it's a push cart.
No utilities - it's a push cart.
No real estate taxes - it's a push cart.
Free use of the public way - so what? Last summer people where standing on chairs and preaching the bible to people in the right of way in downtown, the homeless dude lives in the right of way, at least this guy is going to pay the food and beverage tax.
It is simply unfair to established businesses - free market baby, this is the USA, remember?
It would have a competitive advantage - free market, capitalism.
It is not a level playing field - yeah the poor push cart guy has to work 5 times as hard as the big, fancy restaurant.
None of the fees or fire / building code requirements will be equal or even proportionate to what is required of existing businesses - it's a PUSH CART.
It is a sweetheart deal - that's your opinion.
It sets a precedent - maybe
It would be a monopoly - So you DO care about capitalism and the free market then.
It will result in an increase in complaints to the city - I highly doubt that. And so what if it does.
Existing businesses will end up subsidizing some expenses directly attributable to push carts - prove it. Sounds like unfounded opinion again.
OWVY - I just read the article in the Sun about the Tea Party and it seems a lot of the people there were not even Naperville residents so you can decrease that percentage even more!
Interesting,
"No rent - it's a push cart." Everyone else has to pay for their "location" why should he get a free ride?
"No utilities - it's a push cart." He will still need water, sewer, and a source of heat. All established business must pay the minimum service connection and delivery cost for each of these services each month... plus whatever they consume. Again an unfair competitive advantage if he isn't paying and if he isn't paying where does he plan to get these?
"No real estate taxes - it's a push cart." If you own your location you pay real estate taxes. If you pay rent your real estate taxes are a pass thru from the landlord and included in what you pay each month. This clown will be using a ton of city services just to get in business and not be paying one dime towards his fair share of the true cost.
Free use of the public way - so what? Tell "so what" to anyone who has to pay for daily parking or a monthly commuter pass. They all pay rent or own homes and pay real estate taxes directly or indirectly and they don't get any free use of public property so why should he?
All right anonymous @ 12:28 -
You're now clearly messing with everyone, just to be like that, for no one could *possibly* believe what you're spouting, but... I'll have at it:
No rent, because he doesn't HAVE a location. Push cart, get it?
No utilities. When he need water, sewer, heat, he's going to have to get them from somewhere, isn't he? Save heat I suppose, that can be self generated by pushing the cart quickly about town.
No real estate taxes, not even as a pass through via a landlord, because No Real Estate. "clown will be using a ton of city services" - like what? And if successful, the annual vendor fee can be whatever is necessary to cover.
Free use of the public way - "they don't get any free use of public property" - yeah, that toll booth on Jefferson is an expensive one...
I do get that you're simply trolling, and I like to ignore trolls, as they're generally a waste of time, but in this case, I keep trying to figure out why you're so adamantly and illogically opposed to a HOT DOG CART! Did one run over your toes when you were a child? Have they haunted your dreams? Did you once get caught overnight in a hot dog factory?
Now that we are officially beating a dead horse...
You must not have ever seen a real hotdog cart before. Source of heat for a hot dog cart is that same tank that you light your BBQ grill with. Water comes from the vendor, he will fill up a 5 gal. tank and bring it to the cart. And don't tell me some conspiracy theory about where he can illegally get the water from.
Anyone else have a taste for a hotdog now?? I sure do!
If we are going to support almost unrestricted commerce,free use of the sidewalks, no requirement for a fixed address and give the little guy a break; perhaps we should start licensing street walkers in the downtown?
Undoubtedly, this will be a draw for the bars, low end restaurants and local hotels that can begin renting rooms by the hour. This can offset any losses from our engineering a manufacturing base being sold to China by the Congress a few years ago.
Since this is legal in many countries, Naperville can choose to ignore existing County, State and Federal laws citing established norms in Mexico or Nigeria as the basis for Naperville's legal system.
In addition, we have the most abortion President ever, based on the notion that a women owns her body, under private property rights, should she be able to rent it?
The age of majority in a lot of countries is 14, maybe as part of the legal overhaul Naperville can cite Brazilian laws when City Council modified the State Laws to international standards.
One thing everyone is overlooking is the bees these hot dog carts attract. Last time I was in New York, bees galore were all over the place. It was gross.
I feel sorry for the first kids that will be stung by these bees. I was once stung and I can tell you it hurts.
I hope Margo Ely has some kind of liability insurance for bee stings. They can be severe and in some cases have resulted in death of not only children but adults.
Just imagine a hot dog cart costing us 10 million dollars to settle a bee sting that killed a child in her stroller passing by a hot dog cart. How much liability insurance is Margo requiring her husband's classmate to have to protect the taxapyayer against potential litigation?
The hot dog vendors in New York don't even wear those transparent gloves. They will be taking your money that according to CEO Pamela Davis has 400,000 germs on it and making your hot dog with the same germs on his hand. Even if he is wearing gloves it is not a good idea for the same person who takes your money to make your food. That is why many restaurants have cashiers who only handle germ-laden money.
I would never eat from a hot dog cart. There is no way any hot dog operator has enough mobile water to wash his hands between each time he handles the money and makes a hot dog. According to CEO Davis one needs to wash and scrub their hands thouroughly for 20 seconds to get rid of the 400,000 germs transferred from such things as money to your hands.
Yes, I met with CEO DAVIS personally one time on an unrelated issue and she constantly preached about those 400,000 germs on ones hands and the importance of washing them for 20 seconds to get rid of them. This needs to be taken into consideration before buying a hot dog from a vendor without proper washing facilities.
I've never seen tons of bees by the push carts in Chicago. All my life all the times I've been there. You know...you better take out every flower you have in any pots by restaurants or at the Riverwalk etc because someone might get stung. Heck I carry an epipen and I'm not even worried about it. Better not let people eat their cookie dough or cold stone ice cream outside because it may attract the bees. Are you telling me I can sue...hey maybe I should do that with the way the economy is!
I doubt anymore germs than my own family members grilling on the weekend. Maybe I should have my cousin wash & wear gloves when I go by him for a weekend? I can't recall anyone worrying about washing an wearing gloves when one grills when tail gating.
Good god how many teachers wash their hands for 20 sec each with each paper a student turns in? You know...anyone posting here work in any retail job? Do you wash for 20 seconds before you give me my money? Do you wear gloves? Big Fat...do you not shop in grocery stores? The mall? Anywhere else where one can transfer germs to you? I mean do you wash right after they give you change before you place your hands by your mouth or child's? The handles on the carts alone! I'm not saying I would not prefer anyone to use gloves, but at the same time come on. You know I don't know how any of us have survived so long with all the without antibacterial lotions and sprays. God the 60s & 70s alone! Do you know what we did as kids? OMG! Do you know how many germs are on your telephone receiver, what about your computer at home or work? I'm at the deli today with people using gloves and in the mean time the kids in the cart next to me are sneezing & hacking away. So those germs are floating in the air to me or maybe getting on the deli person's gloves or directly on the meat. Maybe on my bag that is sealed with my meat & now I touch that. Reality people! Do what you can but don't freak out about it...we survive & the antibacterial stuff they are saying are actually making it worse. We no longer can fight the germs. Maybe we should make only people with OCD with germ obsessions work in these jobs?
Are you going against conventional current wisdom that gloves should be worn by employees preparing food, OWVU?
You need to have a chat with CEO Pamela Davis of Edward's for a little education.
Big Fat...
What does this mean? "I'm not saying I would not prefer anyone to use gloves,..." You didn't see that?
I just bacterialed my kitchen sink...but if you saw the dishes piled in there...3 weeks before finals busy!
You know Grumpy Old Men is starting up again on tv...maybe some of you should watch it! ;-) Of course their is no gender bias on grumpiness! Equal rights!
I've been to NYC and bees around pushcarts are a problem. So are flies. In fact the flies are even worse than the bees. And what is worse than the flies is the trash and litter... especially the smell of trash in the summer. Which causes a cycle effect of garbage, maggots, flies, garbage, maggots flies...
Personally I'm not convinced the health department is going to be able to keep up with a mobile push cart any better than they don't with all of the filthy "roach coaches" that sneak around construction sites. It sounds nice on paper but a roach coach and a push cart is hardly a model example of cleanliness or the best approach to food safety and sanitation in this day and age. Buyer beware. If some fool wants to risk getting sick by saving 50 cents over Nickys or Portillo then let them go ahead and roll the dice. Go ahead... pour on those condiments after they have been sitting outside in the sun all day in the middle of July... for me? No thanks, I'll pass. What a horribly bad idea.
You know that guy looked like he loved flies, bees & maggots. Maybe they can use him for an episode of Fear Factor.
How did we ever survive our family summer picnics with all our condiments out all day...not to mention the potato salad, coleslaw and those melting jello molds. We had no SPF 45 suntain lotion then, we drank water out of the hose of nonfiltered water. We didn't wear seat belts...amazing how we survived.
I'm not meaning to make light of this or say I don't care, but do you really think it is going to be such a swarm of bees and flies & the guy with the cart will still be able to work? And if there are so many who is going to buy? Your problem would be solved, so you'd think you'd be happy.
OWVU,
I think you are being childish with your comments. You don't have to wash your hands when moving from one paper to another while grading.
But when you move from these papers to eating you should wash your hands for 20 seconds with soap. Just like Pamela Davis recommends. She knows what she is talking about.
If someone in your family has hepatitis B, you will know and can be extra careful. Otherwise you don't have to be as careful. Strangers will not tell you if they have Hep B so you need to take precautions and expect them to take precautions.
I guess Anonymous confirmed what I said about hot dog stands in NYC. I agree the flies are even worse than the bees. A hot dog cart that is mobile for a while will attract bees and flies.
For those who want an outdoor food bazaar, please visit a 3rd world country. They are gross and life expectancy in many of those countries is 47. Why do we want to go back to the stone age? Just to keep Margo Ely, family and friends happy.....
A little girl walking with an ice cream cone is much less likely to attract bees and flies than a hot dog cart.
I don't know why you are clowning around in this manner to make your ridiculous points. I liked you a lot more when you were serious and to the point. Go back and be yourself and stop twisting, tilting, slicing and dicing everyones simple points. That is how the OLD JOE was before he transformed himself into the ORIGINAL JOE. I have a lot of respect for him even though I disagree with him on most issues concerning the city and its waste of taxpayer money.
Big Fat...
First, do you not touch your face when grading papers or eat while grading? Obvious you are not a teacher. On our campus we even have signs for students that they can get antibacterial wipes to wipe their computers. Why is that? They are not to bring food in the computer labs so they should not be touching the germ computers an then eating?! Students will cover their nose to sneeze, their mouth to cough and generally touch their face. So might teachers grading. Do people leave the computer labs & then go to the bathroom to wash their hands thinking they may go down to eat either right then & there or in a few hours? No!
I'm sorry but I am very serious about how ridiculous you all are being. Now a hot dog stand is equivalent to a 3rd World Country...OMG!
How many people in the world do you think knowingly have Hep. B. and will not take precautions...either for someone buying the hot dog or selling it? Heck, if that is the case, gloves won't make a difference. Gloves do not solve everything. Do you see people in the kitchens of restaurants? They sneeze while they have their gloves on, touch their nose sometimes etc. Or just cough or sneeze by the food they are preparing. It happens! Again, I'm not saying not to use gloves and that many would not move to sneeze or cough or reglove etc, but you seem to think this will solve it. I'm also saying that this cart can use gloves just like any other place. Does anyone know he is not before you even brought this up? How many of you have bought a hot dog from say a stand at a parade or a church charity function outside? Have they always had gloves? My goodness maybe I should be afraid of buying lemonade from a little girls stand now. (or boys!) My serious point is that you need some balance here. The points you bring up are valid at any place on health concerns & can be handled. Hot Dog stands are not like 3rd World Countries. When I go to a town fair for Labor Day they have stands and sell hot dogs, burgers, lemon shake-ups etc. They are not all using gloves, some might, they do not have that many flies or bees by them. Perhaps some of the trash cans may have a few but I avoid it. I've never seen swarms by even the trash cans where you see the whole crowd avoiding the area. It is comments like 3rd World Country that is very silly and a total overreaction, but you know we can wait it see if this indeed happens. That will be the proof. I suppose if you have 100s of people getting bit by bees, and getting ill you will have your proof and can close him down. Somehow I don't think that is really going to happen though.
BTW...not just a little girl walking with a cone...what of the crowds outside cookie down or cold stone. Many groups of teens or families stand there. And certainly tons sit in a picnic area at a fair or are packed walking around and you don't see swarms of bees/flies.
OWVY wrote:
I'm not meaning to make light of this or say I don't care, but do you really think it is going to be such a swarm of bees and flies & the guy with the cart will still be able to work? And if there are so many who is going to buy? Your problem would be solved, so you'd think you'd be happy.
Maybe this is why he thinks the cart won't last 15 weeks; and in that short span it will cause every other business downtown to fail.
The response to OWVY a minute ago was mine.
John Q Public...
I know I don't get it. I mean our school has outdoor picnics in the summer, in college we did and no one died or got sick. At HS football games you have hot dogs stands do they use gloves or have bees swarming so much that tons of people are getting bitten. And OMG what about all the sales of beer, hot dogs, ice cream at professional baseball games in the stands. They move around & come to us. What is the difference? I don't recall every getting sick at a Cubs game because they did not use gloves. I never got stung by bees swarming by these vendors. I don't recall seeing the vendors in bee netting because it was so bad. Does this happen at Sox games? ;-) BTW...0-0 top of 2nd! HA!
OHVU,
You need to take a course in health sanitation in the college you teach at. It will do you some good.
We don't live in a perfect germ-free society but we need to take every measure to minimize them
When I leave a public bathroom, I do not touch the door handle. I use a towel to open it. I simply can not believe how many people do not wash their hands after using the facilities. It is very disgusting especially in a modern society that provides you with water, soap and sinks as you leave the restroom. Make that observation next time and maybe you will understand some of the issues I am bringing up.
I got food poisoning today because I ate in a Mon and Pop deluxe grill last night. I was knocked out for serveral hours. A few aspirins and a little vomitting and I fine again. But I will never go back to that Deluxe Grill on Lake Street again.
About two months ago I was poisoned again when I bought chikcen at a grocery store that apparently was sitting out too long.
Prior to that the last time I was poisoned from food was 7 years ago. That one was bad and I had to cancel a summer vacation to Wisconsin and broke the hearts of my family. I needed a lot of antibiotics to knock out that food poisoning. I felt like I was going to die.
I am going to do my best to be careful and practice sanitation. If you don't want to be careful that is your prerogative. Do it at your own risk. I hope you are not arguing for the sake of arguing.
Big Fat...
Ummm nice assumption...again! I never said not to wash hands when you can. But lets say you go to the Ball park. How many rails, seats etc will you touch. Do you wash your hands everytime? Yes, I do have antibacterial lotion in my purse and use when need be myself, but not always & my point is we never did when we were younger and we were not all dying in large numbers.
Antibiotics for food poisoning? I'll have to ask my doc? Maybe, but if you do get sick at restaurants, if you have not ruled out already I would look into a few things. Two is Wheat Gluten and MSG. They are in a lot of restaurant food & make some people sick very quickly after eating at SOME restaurants & sometimes only certain dishes. Some have higher amounts. Also depends on how much boxed, frozen, canned meals you have daily or if you prepare foods with fruits/veg and actual meats. You can develop this problem at any age also.
Next, is your balance of bacteria (good) in your upper & lower GI. Those are separate tests. Yes, you probably have heard of Activa & some others but some have big problems. Actually, it is usually wiped out when you take antibiotics for something else. They will use antibiotics interestingly enough to balance this again. The Activia is just for occasional as the commercial says but this is for more issues & you will notice it more when you eat more restaurant food etc. Some things are fine when you eat it but not others. Lastly, another thing to keep in mind is you may eat something and you get sick an hour or so later & assume it is from what you just ate, but it may be what you actually ate in the afternoon or morning. It can be a drink even, high caffeine like the big store coffees or ice coffees. Of course some even have migraines from the nitrates in Hot Dogs so they probably will not frequent the Hot Dog stand! :-) Cubs Win! :-)
Damn people! They're just hotdogs. Get a grip.
Exactly! Thank You!
I think our last 2 posts can be reconciled. Let us end the debate by agreeing we need to be as careful as humanly possible.
It is not a good idea to touch the door handle in a public restroom at a restaurant and return to your table and eat. Use a paper towel to open the bathroom door. I hope we can agree on that point, OWVY.
I always thought you were a male. I was surprised you were a female.
What makes you think I'm a male? Purse? Nice assumption...but be very careful. That is not a guarantee. Mistake my students sometimes make.
What do you do with the tissue you open the door with then?
How about our table servers? Do they were gloves when they bring your plate?
Oh...and why would you assume I was a male in the first place?????
Yes, the purse made me think you were a female.
I guess some gay guys carry around purses but I don't think you are gay. Of course, I don't know and should not be making assumptions as you stated, Professor!
I shoot the towel after using it to open the bathroom door into the nearest waste basket. Most times I score.
Professor, honestly you are being a little ridiculous. The servers don't touch the food. They touch the plate. The preparers and cooks touch the food. Let us hope they wash their hands for 20 seconds if they are not wearing gloves. Plus they are not handling money in the kitchen.
For the most part the system works until you have an idiot or two that don't follow the rules. I have turned in several employees of restaurants who used the facilities and did not wash their hands. There is a sign that says they must wash their hands and they ignored it in front of a paying customer. They could have at least fake washed their hands for 2 seconds and my complaint may have not had much credibility. But not to even turn the faucet on is ridiculous.
There are a lot of people in this world who do not care about the health or well being of others. I have been food posioned 3 times and I will continue to report any employee who does not practice good sanitation.
I will probably be the first person to call Margo Ely if I notice the hot dog man or woman is touching the money and then the hot dogs without washing his hands in between. I am putting him or her on notice so they better have plenty of water and soap. I am tired of being sick of food poisoning. I don' want to see anyone else get food poisoning either.
Ridiculous? What next time as they have their thumb on top, around the edge of the plate. I've had some actually have their finger in my mash potatos or something & afterwords lick their finger. You have just been lucky if they are JUST carrying it from underneath. If they touch the top of the plate then you are pushing this way & that way with food to cut meat etc it can get on where they touched it.
Carefully, some small restaurants people do many jobs. Heck our own cafeteria is doing it from time to time & I make note of it! Places are cutting people so they are doing more than one job. And many do not have the trash near the door. Many theaters it is near the sink & the door is quite far away. Yes, I agree you do what you can but there are many holes/gaps & yet we are not all getting sick where the ERs can't handle it. Just watch many places over the summer it will be quite interesting.
By One Who Values You on April 19, 2009 6:41 PM
Ridiculous? What next time as they have their thumb on top, around the edge of the plate. I've had some actually have their finger in my mash potatos or something & afterwords lick their finger.
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OWVY,
You have gotten to the point where you are dicing, slicing, splitting peas and now mash potatoes.
You sound so much like the Old Joe when he was doing that in the early days of this blog site.
What is your point? I am saying we should always practice health sanitation and you are given me an example of a girl touching your mash potatoes. Did I ever say the world is perfect? Did I ever say there will be no exceptions?
I just said we need to try a little harder.
It appears you are now arguing for the sake of arguing. I suggest you stop that, Professor. It is counterproductive and a waste of both or our times.
No I'm replying to you. You said...
"The servers don't touch the food. They touch the plate."
Just pointing out problem in what you said just like you were on others. You finally said it...life is not perfect, people usually don't do things purposely and I'm sure this hot dog vendor will go by laws if he does not want to be shut down and is doing this for the right reason. It would be counterproductive for him not to take care. Understand now?
I totally understand Professor. We are in agreement.
Let us pray that the hot dog vendor has enough water to wash his hands for 20 seconds between each serving of a hot dog and the collecting of germ infested money.
CEO Pamela Davis of Edward's Hospital stated it takes 20 seconds of good scrubbing with water and soap. She is the authority and the hot dog vendor better listen to her. She is a well known whistle blower. I am sure you keep up with the news. She has fried bigger fish and she would not hesitate to fry a small fish spreading germs in downtown Naperville.
52 years young and the police can retire at 30 years service= 75% of final wage. WHY is not this front page material? heh teachers-is that how your pension works?? I heard j. franks explain his pension,four years service allows pension at 85% plus lifetime PAID HEALTHCARE. Eight years service allows retirement payments at age 55+ free lifetime health. These pols and cops worked together to achieve this goal. Could this help explain why the police and pols seem to protect each other whenever a flap occurs?? Mandatory random substance testing will expose the crooks,however they are well protected from the corrupt illinois pols? Quinn is PROPOSING a two tier system for teachers! new teachers will need to wait until age 67 to recieve top level $$$. Why not include pols&cops with new rules??
Some think food safety and sanitation is no big deal and others disagree. Regardless of your personal opinion the State of Illinois has taken a stance and if you want to check out the regulations that apply to food service workers take a look: http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/077/07700750sections.html
It might just open everyones eyes a bit at what is required. So go ahead, take a read. Be sure to scroll down to Subpart H... don't skip the last three sections of this, then go check out Subpart J. Then let's go look up what it takes to become incorporated, get a business license, employer ID, sales tax ID, insurance, and a few other "paperwork" issues resolved. Then there are all of the other state, county and city requirements that will be added in on top. Once all of that has been taken care of there is a bank account, most likely a bank loan/line of credit, legal fees, accounting fees, supplier/vendor accounts, capital equipment purchases, advertising and marketing, and inventory. And of course all that just applies to the pushcart. All of this effort will have to be duplicated in terms of the permanent location that is required to support the pushcart operation.
Then maybe everyone will start to understand why it takes 6-9 months to open a new business serving food with all of the hoops and hurdles Joe will have to go thru along with the training and inspections. If everything is planned out just right and there are no bumps in the road the hot dog stand might just be able to start peddling some dogs in time for the Christmas shopping season next fall.
Well someone does not understand this post is about hot dogs and not police officers apparently. If we have open forum on Fri maybe you can post this again & I'll give my 3 cents worth, and you know what value that is today, then.
JO on April 18, 2009 11:58 PM,
"Damn people! They're just hotdogs. Get a grip."
JO what you are really saying is that a hot dog cart is just a pimple on our butt. Normally this suggests a small hidden problem that shouldn't be a major concern because no one can see it.
Problem is with hiding one pimple and doing nothing about it just leads us to the current situation where Naperville is now covered with more pimples than must of us care to count or see.
Problems ignored rarely get resolved on their own. A healthy discussion of issues tends to find solutions that most will agree.
Come On Naperville are you people really that stuffy there??You all should call it RAPERVILLE trying to take away some poor guys right to FREE ENTERPRISE and the AMERICAN DREAM some people like myself can't afford 500,000.00 to open a restaurant so like myself I bought a hot dog cart and another and then another and so on.DO SOME RESEARCH hot dog vendor's in the U.S.A. is a 4.9 BILLION dollar business every year.Come to TOLEDO we don't have Communists here!
Militamen,
I don't think I will becoming to Toledo soon. Those hot dogs stands don't generate enough revenue to support your city.
What do you know about the 150 Toldeo police officers that were laid off in one swoop the other day? For a city with a poplulation of only 285,000 that is truly mindboggling.
Do you think maybe that 4.9 billion in hot dog vendor's sales is not recorded properly? If you are not collecting sales tax in Toledo from the hot dog carts how can you guys affored to pay the cops?
We are trying to pay our cops but I suspect even without hot dog stands we will soon be filing Chapter 7 bankruptcy.
Militiman,
If you can open a hot dog stand, then another, then another, and then another and so on, you don't sound like you are poor.
You sound like a smart man who can compete in an unfair manner by sidestepping the rigors of the SYSTEM.
No Rent
No CAM
No Insurance
No Utilities
No real estate taxes
No dumpster....will use others probably or the towns
Free use of the public way
Compete on a non-level playing field
No business license
No occupancy permit
Operate under monopolistic conditions
Blocking storefronts of other businesses
And many others mentioned by unique bloggers.
I guess your cart is giving you a free ride and a huge competitive advantage.
I hope you pay all your sales tax since you don't pay real estate tax. I have never run into a hot dog vendor with a register or computer adding or computing sales tax. Just cash taken and put in the pocket or apron. No credit cards are accepted making it impossible to track you or getting the slightest feel on your sales. It is easy to grow from hot dog cart to numerous hot dog carts if you can avoid the cumulative 50% taxes most of us pay to all the governmental agencies.
While I have no proof, I suspect this 5 billion underground industry does not pay its fair share of sales tax. Surely no real estate tax on taxpayer sidewalks. It is hard to control a free wheeler on 4 wheels. How can the IRS find you to audit you without a fixed location? How can the State find you to audit you?
You are trying to paint a perception that you are poor folks while admitting to owning numerous hot dog stands as you grow and grow.
I can not imagine more than 1 in a hundred hot dogs vendors paying their full fed, state and sales tax with the "CASH IN THE APRON" method that no one can control or audit. Maybe Margo Ely will require our hot dog stand owner to have a register and computer so we can audit his sales if we so request. We need every penny we can get our hands on to pay the BigFat Pensions our city employees are demanding.
I bet your mattresses are stuffed with cash, Mr Toledo, while you are claiming to be a poor man. Read your own post....it sounds contradicitory. A 4.9 billion industry and you are claiming to be poor.....hahaha!!!
And let me know why you think Toledo had to fire 150 police officers in one swoop. Is the town still safe? Did everyone buy an AK-47 after this massive lay-off to protect home and family?
I guess if we had to lay off half of our cops because we could no longer afford their big fat pensions and 6% raises, we would all just have to buy and bear arms to protect our own homes and family. I can see that day coming one day as our real estate taxes are becoming unbearbale year by year. At least our constitution thankfully allows us to bear arms.
And yet, with all of these advantages, hot dog carts and brick-and-mortar restaurants have managed to co-exist in cities across the country. Imagine that!
By Big Fat City Pensions will get my Tax Refund on April 24, 2009 2:26 AM
We are trying to pay our cops but I suspect even without hot dog stands we will soon be filing Chapter 7 bankruptcy.
--------------------------------
DS
Who is the "we" that will soon be filing Chapter 7 Bankruptcy?
John Q. Public,
I think you are right.
My understanding is most large cities have licensing fees on these hot dog carts. In some cases substantial licencing fees.
I suspect these licensing fees make up for all the taxes they do not pay and all the benefits they have. It neutralizes the playing field.
Licensing fees entering the same coffers as commercial real estate taxes could result on a reduction on the taxes to the retailers that are passed through form the landlords.
My understanding is our new hot dog operator is not paying a substantial licensing fee, if any. Maybe some bloggers can shed some light. I heard though the grapevine he may be paying a tiny permit fee.
Big cities like New York know most of these cart owners don't pay any kind of tax. Most could not fill up a tax form if their lives depended on it. Thus they hit them for a licensing fee and give them a permit to put on their cart. If the police don't find the annual license sticker on their cart, the police write them up and send them home.
That is my understanding how they coexist in big cities with many immigrants trying to get a start in their new life in the great old USA using a cart on wheels.
We need to be smarter in this city. Our tax base is eroding. I doubt these Pigfest vendors who travel from state to state carry state sales tax returns with them from each state and file them from their trailers. Even if they want to be honest, this is almost an impossible task for a stationary well education businessman.
I met an Austrailan pig rib vendor at the Piffest once about 8 years ago. I asked him how he files his local sales tax as he travels from state to state. He looked stunned and had basically no clue what I was talking about. These vendors are a very large underground society that pretty much go untaxed.
Flat equivalent licensing fees in lieu of sales tax and other taxes may be the only solution. I personally know a catering outfit in Naperville who has never filed any kind of tax in his/her life. No one is checking so he/she is not paying. The rest of us have to pay more since no one is monitoring including the City of Naperville which is suppose to collect part of the sales tax.
Between those who do not pay and the Big Fat Pensions to city employees, most of the rest of us pay over 50% in Federal, State, Utility, Real Estate, Sales Tax and whatever else you can think of.
Imagine we don't have use of HALF OF OUR EARNINGS! We might as well be a socialist or communist country and let the government have all our earnings and take care of all our needs.
"We" is us "taxpayers" who are and own the city. The Naperville Residents.
We could lay off half of our cops as Toledo did a few days ago and of course avoid bankrupcy.
So we do have a CHOICE.
Yes, will have more robberies if we lay off cops. The CTA trains in Chicago had 436 armed robberies in 2008 compared to 235 in 2006 and ridership has grown. People learn to live with additional risk.
We had a few robberies last year and so we would probably have a few more with less police. Hopefully, no one will be killed. Just had over your money as they did at Extra Value Liquors recently with loaded guns pointed at them.
But the amount Toldedo is saving by laying off 150 cops exceeds any amount lost to robbers and burglars 100 times over.
People just have to be smart and hand over their money to the robbers with no resistance until we can convince our cops they are not indispensable and should not be asking for 6% raises and big fat pensions in such dire economic times.
Experienced,
Who is or what does "DS" stand for?
I have been meaning to ask you but keep forgetting.
I would appreciate an answer.
Thanks!
1. No Rent. The DuPage Health Dept. requires the operation to have a licensed kitchen. Therefore, the cart will have to either rent or own such a kitchen.
2. No CAM. Because of No. 1, there will have to be something like CAM paid on the property rented or owned as a kitchen or it will be built into the lease/mortgage, etc.
3. No Insurance. City Code Section 3-7.10 requires insurance in specified amounts
4. No Utilities. See No. 1. Plus they will have to have heating capacity for cart, gas for transportation etc.
5. No real estate taxes. See No. 1. It will be built into lease or part of an owned kitchen
6. No dumpster....will use others probably or the towns. City Code Section 3-7.10 requires trash receptacle on site. I don’t know how you can presume that someone will violate the law and not properly dispose of waste.
7. Free use of the public way. This one is close. Does license cost equal charge for use of public way?
8. Compete on a non-level playing field. Matter of opinion after one weighs the cost of a licensed kitchen.
9. No business license. City Code Section 3-7.3 requires a business license
10. No occupancy permit. Licensed kitchen will require occupancy permit.
11. Operate under monopolistic conditions. City Council approved 4 sites.
12. Blocking storefronts of other businesses. City Council approved 4 sites none of which are in front of other businesses.
"Who is the "we" that will soon be filing Chapter 7 Bankruptcy?"
Anonymous, Marilyn, Diane, Ameena, Blake,Maryann, and the rest of the Napergatians. Obviously, they all are living above their means and can't afford to live in Naperville, even sharing the same house.
By Big Fat City Pensions will get my Tax Refund on April 24, 2009 6:36 PM
DS
I take it that you mean the City of Naperville. Can a city file a Chapter 7? Is that possible?
Experienced,
As you know a city of course can file a bankruptcy. You are an attorney and I am not, so I perceive a possible trick in your question.
A bankruptcy for a city may have a different name than Chapter 7 but it definetely can file bankrutcpy.
Many California towns filed bankrupcy because they could not afford the Big Fat Pensions. The Big Fat Pensions reached 90% of the final and highest salaries before bankruptcy was filed.
When you were a baby, New York City either filed bankruptcy or was on the verge of filing bankruptcy before it was rescued. It was on the news every day when you were sucking your bottle or thumb. No offense. Take it as a complement as this means you are a young man who will be around for a while. I wish I was as young as you.
You did not answer my question as to what DS stands for. You ask me questions and I attempt to answer your questions but you try to skate over mine.
Let us see about Dupage requiring a hot dog stand to have a kitchen. I seriously doubt that will happen and I seriously doubt the laws you look at refer to a hot dog stand. The only kitchen he will have is the one in his home. Hopefully he has a big fat refrigerator that can store a few days of hot dogs.
He is not going to build an $80,000 kitchen and meet Dupage and Naperville ordinances to operate a 5,000 dollar hot dog cart. Trust me on that one. Sometimes when one gets too much schooling they seem to lose a little commone sense. If he needs a loop hole, there is a good chance Margo Ely will find a loophole in the law for him. That is what good attorneys do, Experienced. You should know that. Sometimes I wonder if you are Margo Ely defending her decision since you seem a little obsessed with this hot dog cart.
You ever been to a gas station that makes hot dogs. Most do not have a kitchen. They simply have a small heating machine with rollers. That is how they cook hot dogs. In New York, they just dropped the dogs in a bucket of water and boiled them. As if thye were live lobsters...lol... What do you need a kitchen for? This is not a Chinese or Italian Restaurant. It is a hot dog cart. For Heaven's sake, Experienced.
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PS. Now please don't skip over my question and tell me what DS stands for.
PS.II You remind of the former USA President who had never been to a grocery store with a scanner. He was so fascinated with the scanner you would have thought it was the latest missle technology to take on North Korea
Anonymous,
We share the same house so we can have our nightly orgies.
Are you a little jealous?
Since we are a large group that shares everything including our Big Fat Real Estate Taxes, we are doing better than most in Naperville.
How are you doing? Making ends meet these days?
If not look at the source of your problems as the Big Fat Pensions the police receieve and now we are told they want 6% raises.
I am so glad we share one Big Home and split the costs among us. I can assure you we will be the last to crumble in Naperville due to these Big Fat Pensions.
By Big Fat City Pensions will get my Tax Refund on April 25, 2009 3:59 AM
DS
So, you admit you were wrong that a city can file a Chapter 7. [They have to file a Chapter 9.]
Second, the hot dog cart in downtown Elmhurst (which is in DuPage County) is required to have a licensed kitchen by the health department. He doesn't have to build one. He has to have one. The Elmhurst cart leases space in a restaurant. The ordinance citations are good. And, they were part of the package that accompanied the agenda item on the hot dog cart. The ordinance also requires a permit from the health dept. as a requirement before you get a city license. NY is NY; DuPage County is DuPage County. This isn't the first hot dog stand in DuPage County. There is precedent.
The gas station that serves hot dogs has to have a food health permit for their operation also. It is a permanent location so storage, preparation and cooking all happen in the same place. Since it doesn't for the cart, the health dept. requires a licensed permanent location. Go ask the lady in York and Schiller in Elmhurst how it works.
And, I'll skip over any question I want.
Experienced,
I was actually right when I stated it was a trick question. You are a lawyer and being technical.
Most civilians would not know Chapter 9 is for government and Chapter 7 is for civilian. I do know you can file Chapter 11 to reorgnaize in the civilian sector before you resort to Chapter 7 as a last resort. What is the reorganization for muni's if they have one?
It seems like if the hot dog stand can sign a lease with a downtown restaurant to pretend he has a kitchen, that is a loophole as far as I am concerened. I told you Margo knows about the loopholes...lol.. You really don't need a kitchen to make a hot dog. I told you how they make them in New York and gas stations.
Yes, you don't have to answer my questions.
But for the record the intials you refer to me by, are the person you thought I was. I am not that person you have in mind.
You don't need to admit you were wrong, and you don't need to make a fool of yourself by admitting it, but I think most bloggers knew you never knew who I was despite your claim to the contrary. Thankfully you won't be able to direct hostile unstable bloggers to my front door.
I will not pretend I know who you are, but I would put a Big Fat Bet that your are an attorney who works for the City of Naperville.
Keep giving us little tips like municipalities file Chapter 9 instead of Chapter 7 and I will finally hone in on you.
What an ironic twist? You are trying to figure out who I am and I figure out who you are. The earth spins in funny ways someitmes.
By Anonymous on April 21, 2009 1:07 PM
Pimple? How do you get pimple from a hotdog cart. If this is all the life you have, I'm sorry. How cool is it to just grab a hotdog on the run. I can't wait til they bring back the bicycle ice cream vender.
Maybe "Anonymous on April 21, 2009 1:07 PM" they will approve a butt pimple salve cart for you some day.
Experienced,
We'll have to compare notes on who DS is. I have a pretty good idea. I heard some wacko talking to Councilwoman Senger not too long ago using the exact same slice and dice up the wazoo dialect. I smiled ear to ear when I heard it... knowing exactly who it was. ;)
In regards to the "Five Guys will flip" comments from earlier, after finally being able to try Five Guys, I somehow doubt a simple hot dog cart will provide much competition.
BFCP wrote:
Many California towns filed bankrupcy because they could not afford the Big Fat Pensions. The Big Fat Pensions reached 90% of the final and highest salaries before bankruptcy was filed.
Many? I've only heard of one that filed due to out of control pensions. Two others have filed for other reasons. But that's it.
By Big Fat City Pensions will get my Tax Refund on April 25, 2009 6:40 PM
*********************
Most civilians would not know Chapter 9 is for government and Chapter 7 is for civilian. I do know you can file Chapter 11 to reorgnaize in the civilian sector before you resort to Chapter 7 as a last resort.
----------------------------
DS
You still don't know diddle about what you are talking about! What is that famous line by Gibson: "Has it never occurred to you that on one occasion you might be consummately wrong?"
Chapter 7 is a liquidation. If an entity other than a person files Chapter 7 it ceases to exist. All assets are liquidated and the trustee uses any proceeds to pay creditors. Do you think a city would cease to exist and have a trustee sell all it's assets? "And, what is my bid for this prime sewer/water reclamation plant?" "Anyone want to buy a slightly used fire engine?" Wait, even better: "Would someone like to buy Washington Street and set up a tollway to charge those who use it." I think the last private tollway in Naperville was Plank Rd. that was run by Capt. Naper. What would fill the void left after a city liquidated? There is no federal provision for a government to liquidate. That is why your use of the phrase "Chapter 7" was so preposterous and you had to be called on it. You can't liquidate a city and no city has ever been liquidated under federal law. Vallejo CA, for example, had its debts reorganized under Chapter 9.
And, it gets better. Now that I actually gave you an example of a hot dog stand that leases a kitchen, you no longer say that stand won't have one. So, now you say that the stand will "pretend" to have one. Do you believe that the Elmhurst "Hot Dog Lady" has been fraudulently operating for 17 years and has pulled the wool over the eyes of the DuPage Health Dept.? Is it possible that the County Health Dept. might know what the heck it's doing? Have you gone into the gas station and seen the county health permit for it's hot dog operation? Go into the Thornton on North Aurora Road and you'll see the permit. Despite your cynicism, someone might actually perform their jobs properly.
And, this wasn't even the statement you posed initially. Your initial statement was the stand would have no rent. Well, the Elmhurst "Hot Dog Lady" has rent because she has to comply with county regulations. Your initial statement was that the stand would not have insurance. Well, city ordinance requires it to submit proof of insurance in a specified amount. No Business License. But city ordinance requires a license. Blocking storefronts of other businesses. But the 4 approved locations are not in front of businesses. Etc.
We return to Gibson's quotation: "Has it never occurred to you that on one occasion you might be consummately wrong?"
Experienced,
You are trying to be a semantic smartalic because I did not know the Chapter that cities use to file bankruptcy and reorganize.
It is nice to learn. Give me credit for knowing you were trying to trick me and telling you what you were up and not allowing you to trick me. I guess you could not trick me and now being a semantic smartalic to make up for the fact you could not trick me....lol...
The gas stations I enter that sell hot dogs do not have kitchens and they are in Dupage. Speedway, on the corner of Aurora and Ogden is owned by an acquaintence. Go there and ask him for a tour. You will find no kitchen but he has all the required permits. Just a roller that heats the hot dogs. Underneath is a steamer that steams the bun. He has a sink in the back that is it. No kitchen of any sort or exhausts or whatever. His unit is on the main retail floor next to his potato chips and candy. Another gas station with hot dogs is on the corner of Hobson and Rt. 53. No kitchen! This silly ordinance may well be an Elmhurt ordinacne but it is not a Dupage Ordinance.
Again, you don't need an 80,000 kitchen to steam buns or roll a hot dog. You need a 500 dollar machine that is about 3 feet by 1 feet and a few inches think. These machines can make up to 50 hot dogs or polish sausages at one time.
I don't know anything about the lady in Elmhurst. She does not really need a kitchen to boil hot dogs in a pot and sell them if she uses the NYC method. Now if Elmhurt has the requirement of a kitchen and she signed a lease for a measely amount per month with a local business owner she met her legal requirements using a loophole and Elmhurst is looking the other way. I doubt she uses this kitchen for any reason other than to grab some water and store her unsold hot dogs when the day is over. She of course could store them at home in her own refrigerator or a separate one in her basement. What would be the difference?
I know Dupage and Cook Counties do not require kitchens to cook hot dogs. They both require kitchens to cook hamburgers but not hot dogs. A hot dog is a different beast than a hamburger. As a forensic accountant you many not have the requisite knowledge to know the difference in cooking procedures or requirements.
Do you know where in the Naperville Municipal code it state a hot dog vendor needs a kitchen....a real commercial kitchen costs $80,000 and will meet the minimum standards of Naperville and Dupage. The fire safety equipment, water sprinklers, alarms, chemicals to put out grease fires, etc. could cost tens of thousands to buy and install. A used hot dog cart could be bought for a 1000 or 2000 bucks.
If Naperville required a hot dog vender to have a "kitchen" he will hook up with some retailer and give him a few bucks a month to say he is leasing a kitchen. What a joke? A fully equiped kitchen with all the fire whistles and horns to steam roll a hot dog or boil it in hot water. Ridiculous!
He just needs a portable burner sitting under his hot dog pan. That is it. It could be electric or gas. The gas canister he uses may be very similar to the ones we use for our gas grills. I am sure he will carry a spare. But a full kitchen for a hot dog cart. That defeats all the purposes of the low cost operation of a hot dog cart.
Experienced, you sound like a bookworm, who lost all concept of realism and reality. It sounds like you have no common sense. As a lawyer, you seem not to understand how "loopholes" are used by your fellow lawyers.
I think you lawyers working at City Hall need to learn to roll up your sleeves again. When the city council allows you to farm out case after case and you do very little, you lose your skills very quickly. Let us get some work done and save the taxpayers some money. These big fat taxes are killing us. Get to work! Be productive!
By Keyboard Rambo on April 25, 2009 7:24 PM
Experienced,
We'll have to compare notes on who DS is. I have a pretty good idea. I heard some wacko talking to Councilwoman Senger not too long ago using the exact same slice and dice up the wazoo dialect. I smiled ear to ear when I heard it... knowing exactly who it was. ;)
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Keyboard Rambo,
I like how you like to fabricate based on what you read on this blog site. I am pretty sure you were not at the demonstration. I am also sure you did not ever hear me speak to CW Senger. I don't use the wazoo dialect when speaking to Council Members. I respect them. I speak a different language. For the few moments I spoke to CW Senger, no one was within 15 feet of us or hearing distance. Over 50 people spoke to Senger that day.
I really don't understand why you, Keyboard Rambo, Anonymous One, Fed Up with the Noise and Experienced want to find out who I am. Why curiosity is killing you? According to all of you I am a crazy wacko and yet you all want to find out who this crazy wacko is. Very interesting!
The blog site is suppose to be Anonymous and about an exchange of ideas and opinions. An exchange of messages. If I wanted people to know who I am, I would write a Letter to the Editor and have them publish my name and address underneath my letter. I suppose you guys would do the same.
Your odds of figuring out who I am are one in 143,000. Unless you had a video camera recording everyone Darlene Senger spoke to at the demonstration. At that point your odds would be 1 in 50 assuming you can identify all 50 people that spoke to her using a low quality video camacorder from a distance.
Exchange all the notes you want with each other assuming you are willing to reveal your identities to each other. First, I don't think you will figure out who I am. Secondly, in the remote chance you do and could prove it to the Moderator, I doubt he will release my name. I believe the Moderator will do everything in his power to keep every blogger anonymous. His blog site is built on the Anonymous Factor.
I did communicate with Ted Slovick and Jim Lynch and they both stated that this site gets many many more posts than the Sun gets Letters to the Editor. They believed it was because of the anonymity factor. I don't think Moderator Chris is ever going to endanger the reputation of his blog site by trying to put real names on handles even if he had proof. He is running possibly the busiest blog site in Chicagoland, so he is not going to tamper with it.
These blog sites are not easy to build up or maintain. They are hard work. Just ask Editor Tim West who tried and could never get off the ground. He gave up after 3 or 4 months of constant failures. It takes a unique person to run these blog sites. Ted was a unique person and the baton was passed to Chris who is another unique person. Most who have tried to run blog sites have failed miserably.
OJQP,
Not only are cities in trouble in California, but the whole state is in trouble. It has been teetering on bankruptcy for a long time. They are something like 40 billion in the hole if my memory serves me right.
They are hoping Obama can or will bail them out.
What many of these cities and states are doing to avoid bankruptcy is laying off thousands of workers. I think California also shortened the work week from 5 days to 4 days and told everyone to work harder and notch it up. Of course they only pay for 4 days of employment instead of 5 and I think the savings are substantial.
Toledo recently avoided bankruptcy by laying off 150 police officers in one swoop. I beleive that may be up to half their police officers since their entire population is only 285,000 or about twice of Naperville which has about 185 sworn officers.
We all like to be safe and secure. But truthfully, if most cities cut half their cops out due to lack of funds, we would only lose 5-10% of our safety and security and not 50%.
There will be many less tickets issued for speeding and running stop lights. But you will always have a cop come to your home if you ask for one. It may take a little or lot longer in a non-emergency situation but the cop will eventually come if you request one such as for a domestic dispute that is heating up.
Maybe with less cops, the bars downtown that are recession proof and reaping in the dough, would be forced to jointly hire an outside security service to replace the 12 cops that provide security in the summer. Keep in mind that 6 of the cops downtown are school cops. Rather than laying them off for the summer since we don't really need them, they are assigned to downtown so they can collect their full wages and big fat pensions.
Downtown was absolutely packed Friday afternoon and evening due to the 80 degree weather. Jimmy's balconey was packed like a sardine can. There were no bike cops or additional officers. Everything went smooth. This is really proof that the cops there in the summer are there for their own beneift. They are not there because downtown is dangerous when it is packed. If that is the case, than Chief David Dial was possibly negligent this Friday when the downtown was packed and no additional officers were assigned to the appropriate areas. These are issues no one has been willing to discuss with me in 2 years....or expalin to me. What are your thoughts, OJQP, as to why all this additional security is suddenly and surprising only needed when the school cops are laid off and have nothing better to do???
There are never enough cops to prevent armed robberies. No matter how many cops you have, an armed robber will rob when he sees no cops which is most of the time.
I guess what this is leading to is this. If the cops want their BIG FAT pensions and 6% annual raises, we could lay one third of them off and survive. If this happens the cops lose a lot more than the residents.
It is cheaper to go out there and buy an AK-47 to individually protect your home than come up with $2000 dollars per resident to pay for the cops BIG FAT pension fund deficit. We may have to do this for a while. An AK-47 is much quicker than waiting for a cop if an armed burglar is trying to break down your door. Just make sure it is not your drunk teenager trying to break down the door before you empty the AK-47 in him or her. So we may need to get a little training and drink a little less at home so we can tell an armed burglar from our child who may have forgotten the keys or where the door bell is.
This problem with pension funds is a problem almost every city and the state are encountering. I believe something will break elsewhere before it breaks in Naperville since we are the wealthiest town in America with over 100,000 residents. We will break last, but we can still break and we will break.
Let us hope there is a remedy for both cops, fire fighters and civilians. We need a compromise. To continually have to fund a broken pension system from taxpayer money is intolerable. Unacceptable! Unbearable!
CM Bob has told us we were underfunded to the tune of 61.5 million before the pension damns collapsed in the stock market. The deficit now is much much greater. I am sure CM Bob will give us the exact numbers this summer. I am sure they will be worse. I am on record estimating it will be 100 million dollars unless their money was all CASH in the BANK. Something I doubt since they were striving for 8-9% returns in hopes of getting their BIG FAT PENSIONS to even be BIGGER. Of course, I don't understand what motivation they have to be good investors, since no matter what happens the taxpayers guarantee their BIG FAT PENSIONS to 75% of the final and highest pay. They have no motivation to avert RISK since they are taking no RISK. The whole thing makes absolutely no sense to me and anyone else who is willing to think out of the box for a second and not believe propaganda from politicians.
The state is demanding the cities close these deficit pensions slowly each year. The only way the City of Naperville can narrow their pension deficits is increase our taxes. We were making contributions of about 21.16% for the fire fighters out of taxpayer money. They were contributing from memory 9.45% of their money in addition to the 21.16% of our money. State law does not allow us to increase their contribution.
So the only solution is for the city council to make us take it up the wazooooo for even a larger percentage or be in violation of state law which is demanding a reduction every year in the pension deficit until 2033. In 2033 they are DEMANDING the pension deficit to be 0 for every city in Illinios.
It just seems impossible to me unless they change the system that pays out substantially more than it receives on an annual basis.
That is why I proposed paying the POs and FFs their full pension at age 70 even though they retire at age 52. Nothing wrong with them getting a civilian job and working till 70 like the rest of us. They are mostly in excellent physical shape and have great skills earned form their careers. Civilian society could use their knowledge and expertise.
They would be able to get both Social Security and Pension when they turn 70. That is more than we will get but they earned both so I have no objections. I am pretty sure it only takes 10 year or 40 quarters to be vested in the Social Security System and they have 18 years from "retirement" to accomplish that goal.
But they did not earn the "true" right to a pension at at 52. That is ridiculous since we the taxpayers are being taxed 21.16% of their salaries only to find out we are 100 million short in funding for the pension funds....and it is getting worse by the year and not better.
Does anyone have a solution?
Attacking me is not a solution.
I would like to see some bloggers propose solutions to solving the pension fund deficit of our brave police and fire fighters.
What is your proposal OJQP?
If attacking me you have no shortage of words. You are willing to write essays.
How about a short essay about how we can solve the PENSION FUND DEFICIT for the POs and FFs? What is your proposal? Your heard mine.
Trust me it is much more fun trying to tackle city problems and find solutions instead of attacking each other.
Notice this essay is to you and not an attack. It is a request for solutions. I know you have not accepted my peace offer or Olive Branch but I am hopeful you one day you will accept them and move forward instead of backwards. As I have said OJQP, up until 2 weeks ago, you were my favorite blogger. I seriously admired your level headedness and well thought out opinions. You never attacked anyone personally....only the messages.
That is why I am calling you the Original John Q. Public. I honestly believe you are back or will be back soon. I hope and pray we can have a good working relationship and exchange as we did in the past.
======================================================================================================
PS. Notice since you request, I have been using ONLY ONE HANDLE. I am going to try to use this handle as long as possible. Hopefully, the attacks from bloggers will stop at some point since I am trying to accomodate their wishes.
Oh good God....everyone is a whacko on here on both sides! Amazing how anyone who disagrees with someone is labeled a Whacko!
You know with all this talk of kitches etc it is just amazing that the world population is what it is considering how many times we cook on your grills outside and camping. How long do those hot dogs sit in the sun on a plate before those hot dogs got on the grill. Sure people may be better now keeping them inside but God when I think back in the 70s, 80s & yes 90s! How many of us if the hot dog fell on the ground & you if you didn't have a dog standing at attention just waiting for that to happen & grab it as his trophy, just placed the hot dog back on the grill to "kill the germs". HA! To think of family picnics, how long the potato salad sat in the sun...of course we thought the beer the adults were drinking would probably kill off the germs but the kids would eat it so...amazing I didn't die! I'm not trying to be flip about this but at the same time come on! I do want proper care but we have just gotten out of hand with all the precautions. In fact some are actually killing off our own bacteria that fights the germs we come in contact with.
I will also NOT defend Chief Dial on anything but just because you had a lovely day with no problems I would not use that as a reason to not have more officers when it is summer and more people come. That doesn't even make sense to think you would not. Crowding & heat does increase aggression. My students are going over this research now. You are lucky or you are not aware of all the problems. It amazes me how people still think if they didn't see it, it didn't happen. And don't you think there are some days that things are pretty good? You know I just know the day they reduce the amount of officers and something happens you'll be suing the city!
BFCP,
I merely pointed out that your statement, "Many California towns filed bankrupcy because they could not afford the Big Fat Pensions" was not supported by facts in evidence. Yes, we all know the State of California is in a big financial fix right now, as are many cities, but that does not lend support to your statement. Vallejo is the California city that has declared bankruptcy in recent years, though two others (both very small) are considering it. And Vallejo is the only one that has cited pension obligations as a major contributing factor. One city making this extreme move does not constitute a trend.
-JQP
State Of Illinois regulations apply, to wit:
http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/077/07700750sections.html
Regardless of anything else Du Page or Naperville want so ADD to these requirements... these are the bare minimum.
Absent health and safety regulations like what are specified in these regulations for pushcarts there would be nothing to stop some of these clowns from chaining their cart to a lamp pole in an alley somewhere and just going about their business the next day.
It has been posted before that people who seek out a cash business like this are most commonly living on the edge, ecking out a living, and people like this are generally prone to cutting corners, ignoring laws and regulations that take any money out of their pocket. Just ask the revenue agents about the issues with this kind of business in terms of collecting sales and income tax.
To all these people talking about safety...I offer my WalMart experience today!
The Deli guy does have on gloves. Are they new ones? Did I notice? Does anyone else normally notice talking to kids etc? Well, I just think positive and assume he does. So now he is handling the meat with the gloves. He touches the buttons of the scale after handling the meat. His gloved fingers now have meat juice on them. Those same buttons probably have other meat juices from other people using it & of course any other germs from them. Now this is on his hands/fingers which he uses now to put the sticker on my baggie of meat, grab my baggie & I take it...lovely all that juice/germs is now on me. I prevent my normal reaction of wiping on my jeans (childhood behaviors hard to decondition). I have to move my cart so now it is on the cart &/or I have to somehow use one arm/hand to take my cart to get a antibacterial wipe from the front of the store OR try to open my purse/bag with one hand & dig in there to get my antibacterial bottle & open it up & clean my hands.
Now I go look at meat packages/bacon, eggs. Everyone is picking them up & looking & putting them back. No gloves. Some have just wiped their child's nose. Lovely all those germs. There is a girl who has FREE pieces of pizza in the frozen section...YA! She has gloves on but all the kids who are coughing & exploring the store with their hands have run for free pizza. Oh,and the guys who are forced to go with their wives to shop! Sorry, I know not all but you should have heard these particular ones complaining! The husbands are there to get their free eats and flirting with the pizza girl asking if there is any free beer to wash it down! One guy is told to take the cart with the baby. Baby drops his pacifier which dad picks up off the floor & promptly places back in the baby's mouth. Dad says, "Ick, to the spit from baby and flings his hand a bit sending it in the air. Then he grabs the pizza from the gloved girl. His hand touches her gloved hand despite the napkin under the piece of pizza. Dad realizes he wants to be a "courteous gentleman" (chest sticks out, big old grin) and then offers another women behind him (not his wife who is watching him btw!)the piece of pizza from his hand. This woman kindly declines watching all that has transpired. He gives her an attitude like she is a ungrateful B*t*h. Wife promptly comes and fetches baby & husband stating they just ate at the restaurant and gives women who was offered pizza a look like "I have eggs in my cart so don't even try to smile at my husband." Wife and husband leave arguing. Women voice disappears slowly saying, "As if she'd want you....well, she can have you!"
Turn the corner to the produce section. People are picking up apples and putting back with their ungloved hands. Kids are picking up grapes and eating them. Mom tells them no and as mom turns around one child takes one out from him mouth & puts back in a bag!
Perhaps we should all wear gloves when we enter the stores!
Time to leave!!!! Check out woman does not want to place pet food cans in with soup cans? Upon questioning she states some people do not want pet food with human food. These are CANS! Now these are people who have their dogs and cats lick their nose/mouth. I never recall any cans in my life opening up and mixing? In the parking lot & yes, kids much too young trailing behind the parent as SUVs are pulling out with HUGE blind spots.
We are lucky we are Alive!
But hey...the Cubs just MURDERED the Cardinals so life is still wonderful!
Correction:
Vallejo is the only California city that has declared bankruptcy in recent years, though two others (both very small) are considering it.
By Big Fat City Pensions will get my Tax Refund on April 26, 2009 4:19 AM
Well, DS, it seems like others on this thread understand minimum requirements for a licensed food establishments better than you also. "By Anonymous on April 26, 2009 3:15 PM" went so far as to give a link to the requirements that your gas station and the hot dog cart will have to meet. Does your gas station have a 3 compartment sink, approved counter surfaces, required refrigeration and freezers, etc.? If so, it has an approved and licensed kitchen, location, facilities, whatever you want to call it. The hot dog stand will have to own or rent such a place also. When it does, it will have overhead just like all of the other food establishments in the city. They will have taxes and utilities either separate or built into their lease. And, you will still be wrong that they won't. And, you will still be WRONG that they won't have a business license. And, you will still be WRONG that they will be in front of someone elses place of business. The playing field therefore becomes more level.
Remember Gibson's quote, "Has it never occurred to you that on one occasion you might be consummately wrong?" Well, here it is. YOU WERE WRONG.
Big Fat City Pensions will get my Tax Refund on April 26, 2009 4:48 AM
I really don't understand why you, Keyboard Rambo, Anonymous One, Fed Up with the Noise and Experienced want to find out who I am
___________
Well Big Fat, here is another case you are wrong! I could absolutely care less who you are, and have never participated or speculated on your identity at any time! I did wonder in the past, but since we aren't discussing the past anymore put me down on record as not caring at all who you are!!!
Experienced,
You have not shown me the Dupage Code that requires hot dog carts to have a full kitchen. A lady in Elmhurt could have signed a phony lease with a local kitchen to satisfy bullsh$t Elmhurst requirements. I doubt she even uses the kitchen since she does not need a kitchen to boil some hots dogs. You must have heard of the gas cylinder that these hot dog carts use. And what good would that kitchen do her, if she is not next to it. Can she wash her hands at that kitchen between handling money and serving hot dogs?
Sometimes cities do have ridiculous ordinaces. People will circumvent ordinances that do not make sense and do not contribute to public safey.
The gas station only had one sink. I am sure of that. Go check it out for yourself. It is next to the post office. This indicates to me that a steamer roller steaming hot dogs is not considered a major cooking event. The gas station does not even have an exhaust over the steamer. Like I said it is on the retail floor next to the candy and chips. Go see it next time you go to the post office. How would a 3 circus sink help? The customer puts his dog in a bun, pays for it and leaves. The clerk empties bags of hot dogs and sausages and lays them on this steam roller. He was using gloves during the procedure the last time I observed it. I felt it was very sanitary. A 3 compartment sink. Do you think he is washing pans and pots, Experienced? You really have little common sense and certainly hope Dupage also has no common sense and would require a gas station selling hot dogs to have a 3 compartment sink. With lawyers like you working in government, nothing surprises me regarding crazy ordinaces you guys attempt to pass through councils and boards.
Many gas stations in Lombard sell these hot dogs. They have no kitchen or bathroom insides the premises. If you need to use a bathroom, you take a key and use an outdoor bathroom around the builiding.
If anyone is consumately wrong, you are Experienced. It this blog had a larger audience there would have been many people who would have verified these gas stations have hot dogs and no kitchens. Unfortunately on this site, no one likes to take my side even when I am 100% right.
Reread Gibson.
You were also concumately wrong when you thought you knew who I was.
These are 2 consumately WRONGS for you while you think others are consumately wrong.
Forget the kitchen issue for now. Let us solve the 100 million pension fund deficit that is getting worse instead of better. You work for the city's legal department. Have you guys thought of any solutions? Or are you just going to farm it out to outside law firm sto solve it when it is too late?
So I guess under Chapter 9, we can file and reorganize. We will no longer be liable for the entire amount of these BIG FAT PENSIONS.
Can we throw these pensions to the Feds as United Airlines did? I do have a friend who works for United and his pension was thrown to the Feds and it is only a fraction of what it was.
It is better that the cops and fire fighters work with us beforee we go into Chapter 9 or lay-off have the cops as Toledo did.
Let us not forget we have laid off or discontinued 43 employees/positions in the City so far.....and the worse is yet to come. Trust me as they say...lol...!!!
By Big Fat City Pensions will get my Tax Refund on April 26, 2009 6:18 PM
A lady in Elmhurt could have signed a phony lease with a local kitchen
DS
Well I admit it. I was wrong--or at least dated. I lost track of the Hot Dog Lady of Elmhurst since we moved in 1997. At the time she was leasing a place in a local restaurant. It would appear that Ms. Uslander has been so successful in her two hot dog carts that she now also has her own free standing restaurant where she stores and prepares her food for her carts to comply with state and county standards. Nothing like the American Dream coming true!
If I was wrong about the 3 sinks, I apologize in advance. But you got to wash the rollers from the hot dog juices or you are going to get some really sick people. How do they do that without a sink?
By the way, this is the hot dog cart thread. It's for discussing the hot dog cart that I am doing. You need to go find a pension thread if you want to discuss pensions. I think that is what the moderator requested. You kind sir also need to go back and read past threads. I have NEVER said I was an attorney or lawyer--let alone one for the city. I have consistently and honestly told you I was a forensic expert who worked for a forensic accounting and litigation consulting firm. You will recall that we began by discussing my Minnesota engagment concerning the identification of an emailer. More recently, we discussed the concept of contribution margin. Both topics related to one who works for a forensic accounting and litigation consulting firm.
You know that old saying about what happens when you ASSUME and what you make out of yourself.
Experienced,
Most gas stations have one large tub sink. As far as this hot dog steamer, I am not sure it is even washed. You don't wash electrical equipment unless you want a fire or want to ruin them. You rinse and wipe them down in place after unplugging them. You don't put an oven in a sink when you want to wash or clean it. You don't put a microwave in a sink either. You use a soapy cloth and wipe it down and then use a wet cloth to soak up the soap. Finally, you use a cloth to dry it up. No 3 sink circus is needed for a hot dog steamer at a gas station. That I am sure of and I am glad you are admitting you are wrong while asking me to read GIBSON. I think you need to reread Gihbson....lol...
Pot and pans need the 3 sink system you mention or are required to have it. I do see them in restaurants frequently. Bars seem to have the 2 sink system to wash their glasses. This first one is filled with soap and the second with clean warm water to rinse the soap off the glasses.
Portillo's also started with a hot dog stand off of Roosevelt and became a success story...........just like Ms. Uslander.
I would like to see the Dupage Ordinance that requires a commercial kitchen for a hot dog stand. I just think that is overkill and denies the American Dream of Portillo's and your Elmhurt lady by requiring them to start with 80k for a kitchen plus 2k for a hot dog cart. It seems a hot dog stand is a good way to start and eventualy own your business.... but if you need a full kitchen and have the money for it, which is the most expensive part of a business, why bother starting with a hot dog stand. Skip the hot dog stand and open the storefront and save yourself the heartache and headache.
By Big Fat City Pensions will get my Tax Refund on April 27, 2009 1:57 AM
Portillo's also started with a hot dog stand off of Roosevelt and became a success story
-------------------------------------
DS
Actually, Dick Portillo started his stand on North Avenue in Villa Park in the strip mall where his current Villa Park restaurant is located. I remember it there when I was a kid--about 45 years ago. The picture in all his current locations is of the Villa Park location and so states under the picture. He then moved it to other locations after he built his first permanent location. IT NOW STANDS on Roosevelt Road having been moved there by it's current owner.
Your remarks are pointless. Having nothing to do with what I was trying to convey.
Big Fat City Pensions will get my Tax Refund
You stated: Most gas stations have one large tub sink.
Are you now an expert on gas stations? Or convenience stores that also operate gasoline retail operations?
Have you ever owned, operated, managed, constructed,or designed a facility of this type? Are you a trained engineer versed in the desing and fabrication of commercial hot dog cookers?
Please enlighten us with your credentials in this matter. Or ar you just guessing at things like you usually do?
man would a combine hot dog taste good right now. one dog with plenty of graft,jerrymandering and clout-------- pls.REFORM- MYSELF - i doubt anytime soon.
Just in case you haven't seen it Bill Mego's column today is about the GNHDCC*.
*Great Naperville Hot Dog Cart Controversy
Bill Mego's essay is very short sighted and did not calculate the long term consequences.
Opening the door to one cart can open the door to all carts in every imaginable retail industry.
One may want to sell key chains from his cart.
One may want to sell Teddy Bears to the children.
One may want to sell ice cream to the hot and sweaty folks.
Another may want to sell cell phones from his cart.
Another may want to set up a portable grill on wheels like you see at the swim meets and sell freshly made hamburgers for 2 dollars to show Five Guys that Five Dollars for a Burger is not a Bargain. A few hamburger carts grilling cheeseburgers for 2 bucks outside of Five Guys can eventually and certainly knock him out. Sometimes the profit from a business comes from the last 10-20% of you revenue with the first 80% conquering your break even point.
Most bloggers here and Bill Mego probably never owned a business to understand what I am trying to convey. I once owned 25 businesses and understand what a BREAK EVEN POINT means. In practice as well as theory. The downtown business owners know exactly what I am speaking about. Bill Mego should ask Mr. Sinker a former Sun Columist for the Naperville Sun who now owns a downtown business how difficult it is to make a profit. For those who don't know Mr. Sinker owns the Comedy Shrine on the second floor at 22 E. Chicago Ave. A very nice gentleman trying to make ends meet.....undoubtedly struggling a bit in this rough economy.
All it takes is for one Judge to rule and declare all must be treated equally and the flood gates will be open in downtown Naperville. Niagra Falls will be here pouring carts instead of rain water. Downtown can barely handle the tiny Dupage River when it overflows due to heavy rain. How can it handle Niagra Falls?
If anyone can tell me a thousand carts selling everything sold in retail stores paying 40 dollars a square foot plus 8 dollars in CAM and REAL ESTATE is perfectly alright, I say that person may have questionable screws upstairs.
Since Bill Mego is reading these blogs, I want to respectfully inform him his support of the hot dog stand is not well thought out and very short sighted. Let us hope one Judge some day does not open the floodgates. I do not want to see the consequences on our hard working downtown business owners. We already have 25 vacancies downtown and many stores participiating in the musical chairs game.
Many stores are already on edge. The don't need retail carts that will throw them off the cliff and take away their last ditch effort to survive.
sir ust dorer; whether spelled jerry mandering,gerrymandering or just plain COMBINE , we the honest people can read between the line. CLOUT city, will the next cart vendor be selling 'imported' medical marijauna,Wait til the poor sapp gets robbed by local kid who needs a fix. see police blotter-npd. That father has gutz and his sanity. Parents who enable are a BIG problem here and elsewhere! oh,joe where you been?
It is obvious that most of you have never been in the back room of a gas station that serves food. You would all obviously be surprised to find how much equipment that the food code requires. And there is a whole lot more to it than just the hot dog roller that you see out front.
Since you can't seem to get your mind around if maybe a field trip to Home Depot is in order for you? Go past the cash register into the exit vestibule and take a look at the hot dog stand that was put in to sell just to Home Depot customers on their way out the door. Take a look at all of the equipment that the city, county, and state required. Then maybe you will have a better appreciation of how what is contained in the link previously provided to the state regs plays out in practice.
It is clear that some of you don't have a clue about how food is safely stored and handled to keep the general public from getting sick. All of the food store analogies and examples are nice but not relevant... that is food you are taking home and feeding to your family under conditions that are acceptable to you. The same allowances and discretions are not allowed in situations where commercial establishments are offering food for sale to the public.
Won't speak for others but I was not saying it is the same in a food store as a restaurant or hot dog cart in serving hot etc. They still have to store appropriately period. And germs can be received in MANY ways. I think now we have more to worry about with the Swine Flu than some hot dog cart.
I can't believe you people. It's like he's selling crack on wheels. GET A GRIP!
JO,
"It's like he's selling crack on wheels." Maybe he will, maybe he won't. Crack the door open enough and who know who will be selling what even if he ish't. And if you think push carts aren't or can't be used to peddle dope then you need to talk to a NYC cop. God you are naive.
All of you apathetic liberals are the majority of the reason why this country has so many social problems today.
Imagine a harding working hispanic man asking to apply for a permit to vend 'ethnic' food off a cart!!hahahaha;] he may need a GOOD lawyer to REPRESENT him before the council. Anyone know a 'good' combine lawyer specializing in zoning laws?? just think'in. These people aren't naive thay choose ignorance as a practical $$$$$ matter.
As the city has decided to issue one (1) cart vending permit, valid for one year, has anyone considered that when all is said and done, they will opt not to allow any carts. Also, if they decide to allow carts, they can legislate how many are allowed to operate or decide to eliminate them completely.
Ugh, I see what you guys were talking about with NYC food vendors. Just look at this SUB HUMAN FILTH!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB9Nv5rwG1U
UNBELIEVABLE! Makes me want to...
...eat a hot dog.
Fed Up With The Noise,
You obviously don't understand the issue. If we allow one hot dog cart downtown, we will all inevitably be forced against our will to have one in each of our living rooms selling swine-flu infested frankfurters and crack cocaine, and attracting swarms of hot dog bees. There are no in-betweens, and there's no going back once we take the fateful step.
-JQP
By Ben Thar' on April 30, 2009 8:37 AM
Imagine a harding working hispanic man asking to apply for a permit to vend 'ethnic' food off a cart!!hahahaha;] he may need a GOOD lawyer to REPRESENT him before the council. Anyone know a 'good' combine lawyer specializing in zoning laws?? just think'in
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A very good lawyer that can almost get you anything is Bill Brestal.
He is the best zoning attorney in town....99% success ratio.
Anyone who wants any kind of cart selling anything legal would have no trouble getting a permit if he uses Bill Brestal. He can even get you a permit to sell porn magazines or XXX rated videos in a donkey cart. But let me warn you he is not cheap. His 1% failure is the few times he had to go up against the Napergate Man, most notably the Spring Green battle.
Bulls are in 2nd OT against Boston in case anyone is interested. It is the 4th OT game in the 6 game series. I believe that is a record for OT games in a 7 game series. If their is a 5th OT in Game 7, I doubt this record will ever be broken.
Ambulance chasers are a dime a dozen. Make that a nickel a dozen... that phrase is too old and the law schools have pumped out way too many attorneys in the years since.
Your boy Bill isn't anything special. Your boy BIll can't do anything any other capable attorney can't get done just a quick and probably for a whole lot less. If you've got a case and meet the licensing requirements the city has no choice or face a lawsuit. Even cases involving a zoning change have grown so common that there isn't the same specialty with even those cases that once existed.
Every developer under the sun knows that if they grease the right wheels that they will get what they want in the end. Follow the money. If you just happen to be new to town and don't know who "the players" are then your boy Bill or anyone like him can help anyone understand how to grease the wheels, who owns which wheels, etc.
Like this stuff has anything to do with the "law"... don't make me laugh. It is all about the money and politics and greed. Yeah, your boy Bill would love for everyone to believe he has the inside track and that he is the only one capable of getting the deed done. Yeah, right! Don't dare whisper the truth around him; I doubt he will take the truth very well.
Anonymous,
I don't like Bill Brestal one bit....just for the record.
But he is connected and gets the job done.
I think he should be banned from entering City Hall.
Most lawyers will send you to Bill Brestal.
Not everyone attorney can grease the right wheels. Not every attorney is trusted by the city council members assuming they are allowing their wheels to be greased.
It is way more complicated than you think.
The law means nothing most of the time. It is who you know. It is getting the right attorney in front of the right judge.
The right attorney in front of the City Council is Bill Brestal or someone in his firm.
Unfortunately! I don't like him and would never recommend him.
I wish the system was different. I think you misunderstoond me and thought I was recommending Bill Brestal. I don't like his influence or connections.
I would love to see the law be the law....but I am not dreaming.
The Multi-Handle Blogger,
"I don't like Bill Brestal one bit....just for the record."
Fair enough statement.
I'm met him once and thought he was pretty pompous and full of himself. These days people like that don't generally get the attention they once did. With the city pretty much built out the need for his services will be waning anyway.
Maybe he will have to fall back on criminal or divorce law like the rest of his ilk.
By Anonymous on May 3, 2009 6:17 PM
The Multi-Handle Blogger,
I'm met him once and thought he was pretty pompous and full of himself. These days people like that don't generally get the attention they once did. With the city pretty much built out the need for his services will be waning anyway.
Maybe he will have to fall back on criminal or divorce law like the rest of his ilk.
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Yes, Bill Brestal is full of himself...undoubtedly.
With the city 99% built up his services are waning.
He is still involved with old home demolitions(tear downs) that allow for the building of mansions on dime size properties.
This guy is so wealthy he is not going to criminal or divorce court.
He will fully retire. I believe he is already partially retired and spends a lot of time in Florida.
By Anonymous on April 29, 2009 11:23 PM
Oh my God, your right! He could be a terrorist and the hotdogs are his bombs. You're just scared of your own shadow. This is not NYC. But you should move there to watch those venders. They need twits like you.
I ran pushcarts in Fanueil Hall in Boston, The Grand Avenue in Milwaukee, St. Louis Union Station and Bayside in Miami. Pushcarts are a great way to help individual entrepreneurs start up businesses. They are not just for the "uneducated". There was a group that started a pushcart business in Milwaukee that was run by a pair of Wharton School Grads. Eventually that pushcart grossed
$ 1 million dollars per year. Almost every one of the pushcart owners that I knew was a college grad. I was. There is no better way to test a retail product to see if it has "legs" than on a pushcart. It is a sound way to teach budding entrepreneurs the basics of business. You could have North Central business school kids running one. A pushcart program in Naperville would need to be organized. You would need a manager who understands retail and understands the type of product mix that you need. You don't need to allow cheap overseas junk or sleazy food carts. Physically, all pushcarts would need to have the same look to avoid the mongrel low end pushcart look mentioned in the post above. A pushcart program would need a high traffic area to operate in.If you put it in a low traffic area it will die. Rents are feasible but should be very low. Remember, you are trying to help small businesses develop. Typical rents when I worked at the Rouse Company Festival market places were a low base rent with a percentage of the gross. In todays world, it makes sense to give small businesses a chance. I bet there are a lot of creative types out of work in Naperville that would like a shot for their ideas in the marketplace. Yes, organize it, manage it, but make it easy for creative entreprenuers to try out their ideas. One final idea. No "Made in China" Products. 100% American made for now. You can go to the malls and get that overseas stuff. You need unique and exciting products. As far as competition with brick and mortar stores. Its been my experience that a well run push cart program will actually draw customers to an area- bring in more business- because of the unique product mix.
Joey's Hot Dog stand is putting a dent in businesses such as Five Guys, Rose Bud's Comfort Foods, Pita Pit and Quizno's.
They pay high rent monthly while Joey only pays 1000 dollars a year in license fees to the city....no rent, no real estate taxes and no CAM.
This just seems unfair. Everyone should get a push cart and pull it all over downtown Naperville and avoid rents. Let all the landlords go out of business. Let the store fronts be vacant. Who cares if the city collects any more real estate tax or sales tax.
Let us just make it one big college experience of entrepreneurship.
Has anyone figured out the relationship between Joey and Margo Eli in the legal department yet?
Let us hope the hot dogs are made in America and not China.
And really what kind of testing do we need to see if hot dogs sell....lol!!!
MHB wrote:
Joey's Hot Dog stand is putting a dent in businesses such as Five Guys, Rose Bud's Comfort Foods, Pita Pit and Quizno's.
Can you prove that? Also, if a significant number of people had the kind of experience of Five Guys that my family did a couple of months ago, I wouldn't be surprised if their business hasn't been good---and it has nothing to do with the hot dog stand.
-JQP