Election Day treats incumbents well

I think it is all about name recognition. The incumbants have a huge edge as their names have been out there for 4-16 years. Doug Krause is the most recognizable name after 16 years and uses double signs which is not a technical violation of the law but is a violation of the spirit of the law.

In the old days the Napergate Man would give the non-incumbants a fighting chance by promoting their names ad after ad. These days they don't have much of chance unless someone decides to not run for re-election.

I don't think most residents are happy about how things are. They are simply not involved and in tune. Most of my family members and relatives did not even know it was election day. I had to call them and remind them to vote. And I had to tell them how to vote as they were CLUELESS as to who was even running. They only voted to make me happy. They could care less and would not vote if I did not pressure them a little.

My polling booth said it was the lowest turnout as far as they could ever remember. I must say the polling booth judges were all extremely bubbly and friendly as usual. It is worth voting just to run into these bubbly folks who run the polling booths.

Anti vs...

We agree.

The economic bed is made; I hope they enjoy the fluffy covers.

Same old, same old and I am not the least bit surprised. I agree with Anti about voter apathy and name recognition. How is it that I waited 20 minutes in line for the presidential election when honestly, my single vote meant very little in the grand scheme? Yet here in the local election where literally every vote counts and these seats have a direct impact on our financial well being and quality of life issues, hardly anyone bothers. I guess it is kind of like church on Christmas and Easter Sunday. I vote in every election, thereby retaining my right to complain. LOL Tune in...council meeting tonight.

Low turnout, would make an interesting story on who voted and why, and who didn't vote and why. This is a good argument for combining our local elections with the National primaries and general elections. At least we can get it up to 40%.

One possibility is that everyone is too busy running faster on the treadmill these days so they can pay their local taxes; which have increased by 100% over the last 10 years. During the same period, National inflation averaged around 2% and incomes were either stagnant or went backwards. The latest setback for most of us is seeing our investments vaporized and home values collapsing. Savings are being wiped out.

At the City Council level, attributing the wins to name recognition is an easy hop to make.

One newcomer has done a good job of getting their name out there and building a left wing (now 40% of the vote in Dupage) voter base, the second new face is named after a street in Naperville which seems to be ticket to power.

The two new faces passed the Mayor's vetting process and were appointed by the Mayor to the Planning Commission. The Mayor votes in favor of virtually everything the developers and our most famous law firm can think of.

The Planning Commission has been fairly consistent in interpreting the City Plans when I have watched them. Once denied, the Developers jump to the City Council where the former Planning Commission members ignore the existing Planning Commission and give the Developers what they ask for.

It will be a pleasant surprise if our new council members don't vote lock step with the Mayor.

I was very surprised at the low voter turnout. Very surprised. I was even more surprised to speak to some neighbors who had voted and admitted that they didn't know all the candidates so they just voted for names they recognized or guessed! Seriously!

It's better not to vote than to just 'guess'!

I, for one, wanted to "vote the bums out" and tried to do just that. Unfortunately, there is too many voters who could just care less. I will continue to voice my concerns and try to make a change, however little.

Let us not forget the growing phenomenon of secret cabals and the funneling of monies, especially from established unions from throughout the State and, in fact, country, into our local elections.

The really big news was Kenn Miller's disappointing fourth place finish. For a guy who's dying to be our next mayor, and outspent everybody, this is a real slap in the face. He needs to remember the residents vote you in, not the big money interests.

Well...it is was an interesting outcome to say the least..and a surprise.

Turnout was abysmal. You didn't vote? You don't get an opinion, I say. Disappointed with the 204 results as well as Naperville Township Supervisor results. Had folks got off their whiny buns, they could have made a real difference.

It's obviously both name recognition and the silent majority. In 204, I tend to think it was more the silent majority. Probably only Vickers of the 2 incumbents had much name recognition, and she finished 4th. There was a very vocal group in the south which had their local issues still bothering them (certainly the Gregory matter and, I think, Metea/boundaries). That group may even have been a majority in the south, but was not a majority in the district overall.

Naper Mom - Every election it is the losers' lament that those who did not vote the way they wanted were uninformed or stupid, and/or there was a majority who agreed with them but were too lazy to vote. I tend to think in the District 204 election the whiny people probably were more motivated than most and did vote in above average numbers, but they were surprised to find that silence from others who also voted did not mean everyone agreed with what they were whining about. Perhaps a lot of people did not agree with whatever "real difference" you think the whiny people could have made. To the extent that I was able to discern what that might be in these blogs regarding District 204 issues, I know I did not.

Now that the 204 Board election results are in, and three of the four candidates condemned by bloggers Angela Johnson, Judy Robiski & Patricia Barrett were elected, it's time for these three ladies to put up or shut up -- if they even exist. If they do exist, I apologize; and if their claims are correct, then let the chips fall where the State's Attorney's office throws them.

Personally, I'm sick of all the local-election-related lies, half-truths, anonymous letters and unsubstantiated claims that get mailed, passed out in targeted neighborhoods, emailed, blogged and rumored prior to each election -- especially the last few days before the election, when there is little or no time left for the abused candidates to respond.

After each election, everyone seems to forget about all the trash that's been circulated. No one is ever held accountable. And, because of this "who cares" response and lack of journalistic or judiciary follow-up, it happens all over again the next election. It
surprises me that anyone ever wants to any public office anymore, considering all the abuse you take before and after the election.

And speaking of responses, I have a response to the news that two 204 unions put more than $37,000 into supporting their endorsed slate of four (which may well have cost the four the election). My response is that the leadership of both unions -- all of those who decided to contribute all that hard-earned staff money to these candidates -- should resign. Such deliberate, calculated decisions and poor judgement should not go unrecognized. Here's hoping that the union members will hold them accountable.

People are fools in this city anymore to not vote, especially now.

We should have these local elections AFTER receiving our property tax bills. Can't wait to see mine. I will probably protest it.

To Owen,

I agree. If true, I hope something is done about it from an official capacity. If not true I hope someone crazy glue's their fingers together or feels the squeeze and just moves away.

Owen, I agree with you 100%. I would never run for these kinds of office, and I admire those with the fortitude to put up with the crap - even those whom I would never vote for.

Regarding Johnson, et al., I saw one email copied in one of these blogs. If that's all there was, I couldn't figure out what had supposedly been done other than a couple of people (not the candidates even from what I could tell) sitting together at lunch and talking about the school board election and what might happen afterwards. Johnson et al. gave a dark spin to those people, but with no specifics at all. About the worst I recall was a reference to spreading "lies", though the way it was written it seemed to be that they heard them say something about a candidate which they did not think was true. I guess that fits the new political definition of "lies" - "If you say something is so, and I say it is not, then you are a liar!"

It is my understanding that most of the 204 teachers do not live in the district....so the union support was lost..wherease in 203 there was a lot more union support...look at the results and you'll see that is what carried the top 3 and #5

In #204 I am amused by all the whining about Mark Metzgers continued control and the winners being his puppets. What it really boils down to is in Will County only Tall Grass made a strong effort to get the vote out. Other areas in Will didn't consider it important enough. That is the one and only reason the slate was shut out. Not enough people voting!!!

Yes, we are happy with the results of the D204 election.
I agree it is still a dismal turnout, but 20% more registered voters cast votes in the Dupage section of 204.

Anonymous 10,

Yes you are correct. A few crazed individuals (same ones still upset about not going to Metea at BB) tried to spread hysteria based on a couple of emails they got hold of. There were even PTA leaders on it - my gosh!

Didn't change a thing:)

Not to have garbage repeated here, but was there anything SPECIFIC in what these woman were spreading around? In the one email that I saw, there was opinion and characterization without any specifics (other than pointless stuff like that these sinister people knew who PTA presidents were). I thought that a good writer could make a meeting of two 8 year olds sound as sinister without much effort.

I've watched school board elections for a long time, and I have always said that a junior high school student council election is more mature than the school board elections around here. I saw nothing in this election to feel like I should change my opinion.

Well, it looks like the masses (or at least 20% of them) have spoken. A dismal performance by the local constituency. Does this mean that most just didn't care about the outcome or that they were not sufficiently dis-satisfied with how things are to go out and try to effect changes.

Someone I know passed a remark that people might get out to vote if they were rewarded for doing so by getting a tax credit for voting - a reverse poll tax if you will. An interesting concept.

Anoni-Mouse - I think we should live with the numbers who vote on their own. I doubt that "smarter" results would occur from paying people who don't know and/or care enough to vote to cast votes.

I've been around long enough to know that while "reform" is always given a connotation of making something better, all that it really means is to "re-form", that is, form it again. Reform may be something different, but the changes are not always for the better, and often times they are worse (e.g., virtually every iteration of campaign finance "reform" and ethics "reforms", Mr. "Reform Candidate" himself - Rod Blagojevich, and [it is starting to become clear] The Chosen One - Mr. "Change and Hope" Himself.)

In short, the fact that we did not get the "change" which we might have gotten had people who couldn't be bothered to vote actually voted does not bother me in the least. Also, I think it may serve a socio-psychological function. By having so many people not vote, those who voted for losers can always tell themselves that the majority really agreed with them.

So do we think the all-male slate of 4 running for the 204 school board lost because they were union endorsed? Or because 3 of the 4 were from the south part of the district? I think it was a combination of both, a double whammy of sorts. I noticed this at the onset. I thought this positioned them to lose support from two groups of voters, those who didn't like the IPEA and those who didn't like the southern residents (you know, south, especially Tallgrass = NSFOC).

Given that the southern population is so large, you would think that if the south wanted to have more of a presence on the board, the slate of four would have been a shoo-in. But it wasn't, so something else was definitely at work here. The fear of union "control" of the board? The fear of southern board members working to "kill" Metea? Personally, I thought this fear tactic was the most irrational one I heard. Metea has already been built, people. Not opening it would be a colossal waste of funds and cause the other two HS's to be overcrowded almost to the point of not being functional. So that leaves voter apathy.

I think many of the above bloggers are correct. If you didn't vote, you forfeit your right to complain. Unfortunately, I think the loudest complainers are often non-voters!

I believe the silent majority has spoken.

In the old days, the Napergate man was better known for selling beer to minors.

What the -

It is just my opinion, but the union has long endorsed candidates, many of whom have won, so I don't think the endorsement was a problem exactly. It only became a problem when it became known how much money the union had given them. So while they are related, I would say it was the money, and not the endorsement, which was a major factor. It's like seeing that one candidate for a congressional race has raised and spent $2 mil, and then hearing that their opponent received $8 mil from one source. No matter how innocent or good intentioned it may be, it is impossible to not think that something is amiss.

Also, I do think that a lot of areas were unhappy with the dishonesty and selfishness of the NSFOC lawsuit (yea, right, they were worried about environmental issues) and therefore wary of putting an entire group of 4 (which seemed to be coming from that area) in instant charge of the 7 person board. In the next few years, as the whole Metea thing settles down, and people new to WV discover that it is not bad like they think, this split and distrust will fade away. I think it will. At least I hope so.

Anon 10,

Again, the entire group of 4 did not come from 'that area'.

Hepburn: Tallgras/Fry
DiFusco, Moscatto: Stillwater/Welch
Huang: WindGate/Watts

Go look at a map.

Unless by 'that area' you meant: everything South of Ogden Ave and East of the EJ&E tracks in the district.

I know, Joe, and of course I can only guess what people thought, but one was from Tallgrass, and two were from other Neuqua areas, and I perceived some resentment against people feeling entitled in the Neuqua area which would have attached to the slate of 4 in a lot of people's minds. I think NSFOC really poisoned a lot of people's feelings about some Neuqua area people feeling "entitled", and while that broad brush was probably unfair to the group of 4 (especially Huang), that was inevitable when they chose to run together (in a group size which could completely take over the board and do anything they wanted). Certainly none in the group were from the northern part of the district.

Again, though, I really do think things will settle down as people get used to new schools, and the resentments from both sides over Metea will fade in the election in two years. At that time, I think candidates will choose to stand and fall on their own, and where someone is from will not be particularly important then. (Also I presume the teachers' union will be smart enough not to put a bullseye on candidates they prefer by giving them a ton of money). In this election, with the NSFOC lawsuit still somewhat fresh in memory, unfairly or not, I still do think it was a factor.

Original Joe on April 8, 2009 3:10 PM
Again, the entire group of 4 did not come from 'that area'.
Hepburn: Tallgras/Fry
DiFusco, Moscatto: Stillwater/Welch
Huang: WindGate/Watts
Go look at a map.

_______________

Hey OJ. A few of my neighbors thought this group of 4 were running as a group in order to make wholesale changes in the district. I do not believe this was their purpose, but the "Impression" from some seems to be that one of the changes was another boundary type decision / change. I don't believe it was so much where these 4 lived as the misguided notion that they were out for some type of change, or daresay revenge that may have included boundaries. Just a thought, and not scientific.

I think running as a group like that may have cost them votes for fear of electing a "mob" -(not literally a mob, but I couldn't think of another word).

To Orginal Joe

The area you describe includes 4 of the 6 middle schools.

Hepburn, DiFusco & Moscatto are all from the Scullen area which was at the heart of the NSFOC lawsuit. Whether these candidates were involved in NSFOR or not, a lot of voters were not going to support them because of the lawsuit.

Thomas and Anon 10,

I agree that there was a lot of misinformation being spread around specifically meant to trigger a fear response. It worked. Tip of the hat for the effectiveness. A Wag of the Finger for playing the card.

did anybody bother to copy the video of the school board's boundary meeting from last February/March to their harddrive?

By Anonymous on April 8, 2009 2:26 PM
I believe the silent majority has spoken.

In the old days, the Napergate man was better known for selling beer to minors.

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I don't agree with you. In the old days the Napergate Man started months before the elections with his Napergate Ads to discuss the candidates and what they stood for.

If you kept up with his ads by the time elections rolled around the candidates were household names. The non-incumbants gained name recognition almost equal to the incumbants. He basically leveled the playing field.

I think these days most non-incumbants without a blessing from the Mayor to have been inserted on the Plan Commission, really have no chance. No one knows who they are. No one recognizes their names. The one week the Naperville Sun devoted to 16 council candidates is hardly enough time to even begin grasping names let alone what they stand for.

The incumbants have more yard signs because they save those from prior elections and make some new ones with each additional election. Something has to be done to equalize the playing field again with the retirement of the Napergate Man.

With this victory be assured city employees will continue getting their full pensions even though their funding was decimated in half by the stock market. The taxpayers will gradually feel higher taxation. As they were saying on the news today, the concept of allowing public employees to retire after only 30 years on the job will either bankrupt the pensions or the taxpayers.

In our case with the establishment running the town, the taxpayers will be bankrupted. Almost 100% of City Employees and their relatives vote in order to protect their great pensions at taxpayers expense. This is a block of 5000 voters and constitutes most of the votes launched in any local election. As long as politicians who we vote for are granted pensions, they will choose to bankrupt the taxpayers before their interests. It is a very sad situation. It will lead to an exodus to other cities and states and one day we will look like DETROIT. You can buy a house in Detroit for a few hundred or thousand dollars these days...not kidding!

Thank God my mortgage is paid for. If I had to pay my mortgage combined with the real estate tax on my home I would be broke. I did my duty and voted to oust the politicians who tax us to death. I will survive. I am not sure all those who have mortgages and high real estate taxes can survive. But if they don't they can look in the mirror and blame themselves for not voting. Let us not blame the Napergate Man for selling booze to minors as the root cause of all our problems. He did a magnificent job in that area also and won a National Award for having the most responsible drinking campain in the nation.

We need to blame ourselves for not voting. The Napergate Man held our hands and guided us for 10 years. We need to grow up and realize he was not going to hold our hands forever. I am surprised we could not hold on to the most important lesson the Napergate Man taught us: the importance of getting out there and VOTING.

To Those who did not vote...

You made me laugh. Go ahead with your praise for the napergate man. I remember his ads. They were amusing to read but not much more then that.

The national award he won. Are you talking about the time he sent a 18 year old girl into his store to buy a bottle of booze and he ended up getting busted by the cops? Now there is someone we should all look up to.

Questions...not answers

I've only been around for 15 years so I do not know who the Napergate man is - can someone explain?

How does a "silent" majority speak?

What issues were prevalent for the majority of voters in the City/County? I don't recall any major platforms from Council candidates, and the City is not going to hell, so what would have driven voters to the polling places?

From the Sun's most recent article on Tuesday's vote:

"Roughly three quarters of the votes cast in Tuesday's District 204 board race came from the northern portion of the district."

So there we have it. It looks like voter apathy. The Sun states that the north won the civil war, but they won by default. The south didn't bother to show up.

To By those who did not vote

"In our case with the establishment running the town, the taxpayers will be bankrupted. Almost 100% of City Employees and their relatives vote in order to protect their great pensions at taxpayers expense. This is a block of 5000 voters and constitutes most of the votes launched in any local election."

Here you go again, making things up. I seriously doubt that even 15% of city employees live in this community. There is no residency requirement and if you start out making under between $30,000 to $55,000 a year as many do, you are at the low end of even middle class. Who could afford real estate in this community with that salary? Cops don't like to live in the town they work in unless they have to. After all, would you want to be ticketing neighbors, your butcher, the kid's teacher?

It was not the employees that re-elected this group of incumbents. It was all the voters who recognized the names and think everything is good enough for them the way things are now. Sad, but true.

By Anonymous on April 8, 2009 10:39 PM
To Those who did not vote

The national award he won. Are you talking about the time he sent a 18 year old girl into his store to buy a bottle of booze and he ended up getting busted by the cops? Now there is someone we should all look up to.

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He did sting operations on his own liquor stores using a minor to make sure his employees were not selling to minors.

Yes, he was busted by the cops wrongfully and illegally.

To make a long story short, the Illinios Appellant Court ruled in his favor 3-0 that his sting operation was legal. The cops who busted him and the prosecutors who prosecuted him got egg in their faces.

He then sued the City of Naperville and the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled in his favor 2-1. The case was posted here by Blogger TB for everyone to read. The facts are very well know by most bloggers. You seem a little late to the party.

And yes he won a National Award not only for his sting operations but for all his efforts against minors. He confiscated more IDs than all other liquor establishments in Naperville combined times a factor of 5.5. The contest for the most responsible liquor retailer in the country was sponsored by the Newspaper Guild of America and the National Retail Liquor Association. He colleced his award in Las Vegas. A picture of his trophy appeared in the Naperville Sun.

Trying to distort the truth will not get you very far. You will be called out. Since you use Anonymous it shows you are a chicken who does not want to be held accountable for your false and misleading remarks.

As far as being busted by the cops it was a wrongful bust and the City of Naperville spent 10 million dollars trying to defend the cops to no avail. He had video tape to prove his innocence and money could not vindicate the City of Naperville as it apparently vindicated it in the Dick Furstenau Case.

The city of Naperville destroyed or lost all the records pertaining to the cost of the Napergate Trials that lasted 10 years. They would not even produce them for Editor Tim West of the Sun after calling them out for the missing records in a spectacular fashion.

The district has 43,570 registered voters in DuPage County, and 7,533 of them — 17.3 percent — bothered to vote Tuesday.

Down in Will County, the district boasts just 26,996 registered voters. Only 3,425 of them cast ballots. That's a voter turnout of 12.7 percent.

Roughly three quarters of the votes cast in Tuesday's District 204 board race came from the northern portion of the district.
.............................................................
This was from the Sun article about the "North winning the war". If there were an equal number of total voters in the North and South the comparison would be more valid. I'm not excusing those who didn't vote, but I disagree that this was a North vs. South issue, and I disagree that only looking at the percentages tells us the whole story. After all, if we had 100% voter turnout the North would still hold a total voter edge of 61.7% to 38.3%. I never trust percentages until I also get to see the actual numbers along with them.

Why didn't the Sun run a headline that said, "less than 5% more registered voters turned out in the North than did the South"? (17.3 - 12.7 = 4.6% difference). Instead they used the total number of votes from each group and compared it to the total registered which is misleading.

The "silent majority" won yet again. Sorry napergate wackos-you were proved wrong as usual. Go back to selling booze to tweens.

Strike 1 - NSFOC
Strike 2 - slate of 4

when will you learn you can't bully your way in? No one likes a bully.

and because you lost doesn't mean if more people would have voted, you would have won.

The silent majority speaks again!

The recent local, State and Federal Elections mean more of the same. Damn the torpedoes and full steam ahead!

I wonder if Naperville is a microcosm of what is happening to the USA.

The Governments and taxing bodies (now consuming 45% of our economy) are systematically sucking the private industries and savings dry while they enrich themselves and their suppliers. Unemployment in the private sector is actually something approaching 15% with another 15-20% underemployed. Underemployed means you are an engineer scooping ice cream part time.

In the meantime, the private industries are abandoning ship as fast as possible. You can't move your asphalt plant to China, Singapore or India but you sure can move all of your Engineering, Scientists, R&D, Customer Service, back office, Manufacturing and a lot of your Management if you are a producer of goods or services that can be distributed or serviced remotely. Ford's new factories are being built just outside of Mexico City.

At some point, the local economy will implode; like the national economy has been doing for several years. In the end, will have just government and their suppliers.

The Bush-Obama response, bailouts for the international super rich, devastating free trade (cheap labor without regulation) agreements and printing money to pay the bills and keep the masses sedated while the bottom drops out. Who is abandoning ship: Europe, OPEC, China, Russia or about the other 60% of the worlds economy. The Japanese are too polite to laugh in our faces, so far.

If the FEDs continue to print money, like the banana republic we are becoming, the bottom will drop out of the value. This is why so many countries are abandoning the Dollar as fast as they can. Its a sinking ship.

Once collapsed, the government will print the new dollars and you can exchange the old ones at a rate of $100 dollars to $1 Amera-peso.

This story has been repeated many times over history. Lots of times in banana republics.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Jobs, What jobs?

Alcatel Lucent, a French company moving to China, thousands of Naperville engineering jobs, eliminated

BP Amoco, British company that is winding down Naperville and moving some jobs offshore

Nalco, is this still a French company or was it sold to Vcs? It won't take the Indians and Chinese long to start cranking out chemical engineers if this company expresses an interest in relocating.

Office Depot, virtually all products besides paper are from China. These represent engineering and manufacturing jobs that were moved to China from the US over the last decade.

Tellabs, a US company, all manufacturing moved out of the US, hiring engineers in India.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Lets soak the rich and corporate pigs!

If you have 2000 employees that live in Naperville and their taxes go up by $3,000 for the state and local governments. This means 2000 x ($3,000 salary + $2000 taxes) = $10MM a year cost increase just to stay even. Viewed as a 10 year expense, this becomes $100 MM you can avoid if you leave Naperville, leave Illinois and probably leave the USA once you are in the moving vans.

If you move your 2000 employees overseas, you can save $80K + per year in loaded salary (for Engineers its closer to $140K), plus not pay the tax increase projections. You will also receive lower corporate tax rates in any other country besides the US in the world.

For one year, the salary savings are: 2000 x $80K = $160 million, or for engineers and scientists 2000 x $140K = $280 million.

For ten years, $1.6 Billion to $2.8 Billion plus the $100 million in new costs you don't incur.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

What does the future taste like?

If our government employees want to taste their future, they can try eating eating rice and beans three meals a day. The rest of us will be serving it to them in restaurants when we are not working the a corner as a shoe shine.

What the?-

I am copying here the comment I posted to the Sun's article to which you refer ...

I guess when you combine the loser's lament with a newspaper's desire to stir controversy to sell papers you get this - OUTRAGEOUSLY BAD misleading factually incorrect reporting. What ever happend to fact checking in newspapers?

On election night, when the Sun was saying that Huang was headed to victory, I posted numbers which showed him to be in 6th place. Another poster corrected my numbers (though Huang was still in 6th place). Initial reports from Will county had changed, and actual vote totals were higher than originally reported.

This article uses those OLD Will County vote totals, CHANGED 2 DAYS AGO, which incorrectly reported that Huang had 1,560 votes, DiFusco had 1,360, Hepburn had 1,282, Moscato 1,186, and DeSart 1,160, IN FACT SINCE AT LEAST 11 PM TUESDAY NIGHT Will County reports those votes as 1752 (not 1560), 1540 (not 1360), 1463 (not 1282), 1349 (not 1186) and 1227 (not 1160) (see http://results.enr.clarityelections.com/IL/Will/10442/15430/en/summary.html).

The voting totals this article reports for DuPage county are also off from what is shown by Dupage county now (though I do not know when those were last updated) (see http://www.dupageresults.com/results/2009_04_results/schools-1.htm). It appears to treat (for convenience sake in getting numbers, though that didn't help get the numbers right) that the "southern portion" was just Will County, when in fact there are plenty of areas in southern Dupage county which shared views and issues with the "southerners" of Will county. But even assuming the "north portion" is supposed to be Dupage, Rasmus, for example, got 3356 votes, not 3,280 as this article states.

As to the registered voters, etc., I am not sure where he got those numbers but I do know that every other number he reports is wrong. Moreover, while he makes it look like "northerners" came out to the poll a lot more than "southerners" to deny them their share of the pie or something, the numbers tell a different story. Specifically, even assuming his 26,996/43,570 registered voters is correct (though, again, I have no reason to believe this reporter), the total votes cast in Will v. Dupage was 13,260 vs 23,794. (While it is hard to say that actual voters were 1/4 that, since not everyone is likely to have voted for 4 people, still those total votes are a reasonable representation of the share of their "voice" in the election). Compare those totals and you will find that the registered voters in Will represent 38% of the district voters (at least according to the article's figures), whereas their votes were 36% of the total votes in the district. Not much of a disparity at all.

In short, this article is pathetic reporting, particularly when it is clearly intended to continue to stir up a contentious issue. It's an old axiom that you can make numbers say whatever you want, but the Sun should at least get the right numbers when they do it.

It's ironic how the article ends ... "I'm interested to see how people who have never dealt with numbers like this will deal with ..."

Shame on you, Sun.

Trying to distort the truth will not get you very far. You will be called out. Since you use Anonymous it shows you are a chicken who does not want to be held accountable for your false and misleading remarks
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Posted by By Those who did not vote will one day pay dearly...interesting name, is it Scotch/Romanian?

Good one. That one was almost too easy, Clever Irony.

Posted by By Those who did not vote will one day pay dearly...interesting name, is it Scotch/Romanian?

Ans: Taxmanian, I think. A little known small island off Australia. It might be Taxmanaical, but foreign language adjectival suffixes are not my strong suit.

$$-aqui

TO: JLYC, Clever Irony, Anonymous

Oh lord.....now you have gone and done it....you encouraged DS, the leader and sole inhabitant of the napergatian nation, to come out of his hole again. Since it is sunny today, I am sure he saw his shadow and will be sticking around for 6 more blog-weeks worth of postings.

I don't want to see this discussion get sidetracked into the Napergate thing again. That has been beaten to death on this blog.

Sorry. I didn't know.

By Clever Irony on April 9, 2009 1:29 PM
Trying to distort the truth will not get you very far. You will be called out. Since you use Anonymous it shows you are a chicken who does not want to be held accountable for your false and misleading remarks
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Posted by By Those who did not vote will one day pay dearly...interesting name, is it Scotch/Romanian?

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There is no clever irony. There is only one "Those who did not vote will one day pay." He can address me. There are hundreds of anonymous bloggers. Thus I can not address him when he comes up with another issue under Anonymous as I will not know if he is the same Anonymous or different Anonymous.

We are all Anonymous but I am talking about being Anonymous regarding this blog site where your handle can not be held accountable. Sorry, this is all over your head.

By HIHI on April 9, 2009 8:57 AM
The "silent majority" won yet again. Sorry napergate wackos-you were proved wrong as usual

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Furtenau endorsed two candidates for the 4 year seats whom won. He is anti-establishment and possibly Napergatian. So I am not so sure the silent majority won. I think it was a tie.

Apparently his reputation was not damaged that badly. When he runs for election in 2 years, this whole mess will be forgotten and he will most likely win....as long as he puts up as many yard signs as Krause...lol...

By JLYC on April 9, 2009 10:19 AM

What the?-

I am copying here the comment I posted to the Sun's article to which you refer ...

I guess when you combine the loser's lament with a newspaper's desire to stir controversy to sell papers you get this - OUTRAGEOUSLY BAD misleading factually incorrect reporting. What ever happend to fact checking in newspapers?
------------------------------

Thanks for doing all this number crunching for us. I would never have bothered as I don't really care that much. Must be fact checking apathy. I'm in the south. ;-)

Sometimes in politics you have to stick your nose in someones behind. surely Furstenau did that but he didnt have the courage of the napergate man.

So many times it is just a follow the money situation. Now look...you follow the money and it leads you to new yard signs. some are for candidates you vote for, some are for ones you didnt. the point is that i am very clever about the way i post. You will never catch me out. I never say catagoricly one way or the other. I use inuendo and suggestion. sometimes, but not always. see?

I dont start the name calling. others do. i just respond in kind because it right and proper. you all will get youre come uppence. and i will be telling you all about it because you deserve it. I am not telling you anything you dont already know. but i have the courage to spell it out once and for all.

this election was a sham and a rip off of the taxpayer. the cronies got their way and we got pimped. long live city hall i say. bring back some sanity and we will all be better off.

(Actually, it is possible there is more than one.)

The napergate wackos cannot let it go-the silent majority won-its over-you lose.
If you hate Naperville and our brave Naperville police so much...move.
I bet most of you don't even live here.

I love the "Establishment". They have given us the best city in the country to live in. Would never vote against them. Thanks city council for your hard work-keep it up!!!

HHI,

Maybe it is the best city in the country.

It is OK to love the the police.

We all love the police and firefighters.

But I will be leaving town one day....hopefully soon.

They have a pension deficit of over 60 million and one day it will be 100 million.

While I am out of town be ready to pay for this massive pension fund deficit. Be ready to have your real estate taxes doubled. In North Carolina where I am moving a $300,000 home only pays 1200 in real estate taxes. Here it is many times that.

The Napergate Wackos warned us. We did not listen. We will pay the price unless we move out of Naperville. I am definetly moving out soon. Good luck paying my bill and your bill.

Oak Brook residents don't pay a single penny in real estate taxes for city services. Not a penny. Why are we so proud of our officials for costing us thousands of dollars of real estate taxes per year per household?

By Those who did not vote will one day pay dearly.... on April 9, 2009 9:30 PM

Sometimes in politics you have to stick your nose in someones behind. surely Furstenau did that but he didnt have the courage of the napergate man.

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Please don't plagiarize my handle. Thanks. The Real One!

Also try to capitalize where appropriate so your plagiarism won't be so obvious.

By Get Real on April 9, 2009 3:53 PM
TO: JLYC, Clever Irony, Anonymous

Oh lord.....now you have gone and done it....you encouraged DS, the leader and sole inhabitant of the napergatian nation, to come out of his hole again. Since it is sunny today, I am sure he saw his shadow and will be sticking around for 6 more blog-weeks worth of postings.

___________________________________________________________________

You are a preacher who does not practice his preaching. I guess you can be called a non-practicing preacher.

Oh lord.....now you have gone and done it. And fueled the fire even worse....lol...at you...Get Real.

What all you Council lovers miss is that they are spending your money on pensions which cost US THE TAXPAYER money. We pay for the pensions and they dole them out. That means they are spending our tax money. Imagine it! The napergate man worried about his pension before he retired. And he had video tape which I guess is what it takes in this town and its kangaroo courts.

If he hadnt retired, we would all know the council were a bunch of stooges who shouldnt be dog catchers. My postings are always clear and I never have a problem with not telling the truth because I always tell the truth. Which is more than I can say for most of you who post anonymous while I sit here and post bravely time after time and with a different handle for each blog topic and sometimes I change it on a single blog but I always stay the same.

Most of you fools who love to pay taxes wouldnt understand what I am talking about, but I do. I always know what I am talking about and am proud of that fact. So proud that I use a highly identifiable name. Usually of not fewer than 7 words because I pick a clever phrase to make my point with.

Now, stew on that and try to top it. We need to vote better next time. I challenge you! And that is not name calling. It is just calling it like it is.

(It wasn't plagiarism. It was parody. I tried to clean up the capitalization in this one. But I left a few mispellings to keep it realistic.)

Those who did not vote will one day pay dearly.... on April 10, 2009 1:25 PM
My postings are always clear and I never have a problem with not telling the truth because I always tell the truth. Which is more than I can say for most of you who post anonymous while I sit here and post bravely time after time and with a different handle for each blog topic and sometimes I change it on a single blog but I always stay the same.
Most of you fools who love to pay taxes wouldnt understand what I am talking about, but I do. I always know what I am talking about and am proud of that fact. So proud that I use a highly identifiable name. Usually of not fewer than 7 words because I pick a clever phrase to make my point with.

_____________________________

I can't think of any group you didn't just offend - you are like a broken record. First you complain that you are attacked, then you go on the attack yourself. This topic is about incumbents winning in the recent election, yet you still find a way to incorporate the napergate man? I respond to your postings when you present yourself as somehow above reproach and you claim to always tell the truth. This was not always the case.

If anyone wants the truth about you I will direct them to the Napergate archive. Once there start reading the Napergate open forum sections. In these sections you will see names like Ameena, Beilen, Virginia, Marilyn, McFarland, Patricia, Mickie, Maryann, marshall, liebert and at least 50 others. These names are all you, having conversations with yourself and commenting on how each of the other posters (actually you) are correct and right in your thinking.

As an example I have copied some sample postings below to illustrate my point. The part to keep in mind is that all of the authors and the people they are complimenting are actually you as proven by the Sun, and the fact they all had the same I.P. number.

I wouldn't keep pointing this out if you would stop trying to claim how virtuous and honest you are. I have resisted for a few weeks, but when you call people "fools" I will remind them who the fool really is. Please tell us again how pretending to be so many different people on the same thread is "posting bravely"?

McFarland on March 14, 2008 5:48 AM
Mickie,
I want to commend you for your latest excellent 2 posts on this Napergate Thread.

Maryann on March 17, 2008 1:43 PM
Moderator Jim,
I don't think McFarland was issuing any veiled threats.

Patricia on April 3, 2008 7:50 AM
When the Moderator has a live Napergate Thread, you can see 30-50 Napergatians bloggin per day.

Liebert on February 26, 2008 6:18 PM
Modeator Jim,
I tend to agree with Marilyn.

HERE IS WHAT I THINK HAPPENED..... on March 13, 2008 6:38 AM
The Napergatian Group is undeniably a sharp group that had a brilliant leader and a well known organization. They also seemed to have learned to be secretive.

Those who did not vote will one day pay dearly:

Thank you for your bravery in posting the truth. What would we do with out you? How would we manage with out your constant reminding us of the great Napergate man and how about foolish everyone but you is?

Does the city council have a choice as to whether or not to offer it's employees a pension on the terms dictated by state statute?

Those who do not pay dearly is a fraud immitating the real those who do not pay dearly.

To bad you guys are all sucked in so easily.

He even admitted he is a fraud...

I think the Napegate Man was great BTW.

Anonymous ONE,
I wouldn't keep pointing this out if you would stop trying to claim how virtuous and honest you are. I have resisted for a few weeks, but when you call people "fools" I will remind them who the fool really is.

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I did not say you or anyone are fools. An imposter did and you fell for the trap.

No need to remind anyone who the fool is.

You are now the fool for responding to an imposter who apparently fooled you. He did not fool me....lol...

Try to verify before you go on the attack. If you had been reading this blog, you would have known a warning was issued about a plagiaristic imposter.

Even the imposter admitted it was parody. All over your head. No one made a fool of anyone. You simply made a fool of yourself for not reading before writing. Try to exercise some due diligence in the future. And mellow out about your attacks on the Napergate Man. He may not even know this blog site exists. Only about 100 residents of the 143,000 residents blog here. Most have no clue this site even exists. So don't make a mountain out of a moehill. This whole site may be nothing more than a big parody.

What's a moehill?

A molehill...maybe...

Dantomo,

I guess you did not read his Napergate ads that appeared from 1994 to 2001 in the Naperville Sun when you were living in town. Were you not a subscriber to the Naperville Sun?

Anyway, if you review the Napergate Archives on this blog stie, you can learn about him. Former Host Ted Slowick published parts of many of his Napergate Ads on a thread a while back.

There is a lot to read about him as his accomplishment were numerous.

There was nothing amusing about his ads. They were serious. He even endorsed candidates as a bloc during elections and in one election he had a clean sweep with all his candidates winning the election and ousting the establishment candidates.

"Oak Brook residents don't pay a single penny in real estate taxes for city services. Not a penny. "

Oakbrook only has a population of like 9,000 people. Naperville's is over 140,000 - we just don't have that kind of tax base to do that yet.

Yeah, but,

Oak Brook has less than 10 square miles. We have 143 square miles.

We have many times the retail and office space they have due to our size. Look at what we have on Rt. 59 and look at all the car dealerships we have. Oak Brook has no car dealerships. Car dealerships generate huge sales tax revenue.

The bottom line is Oak Brook spends its money frugally. We waste our money. We had a beautiful riverwalk and our city fathers spent 1.5 million dollars to make it just as beautiful as it was before. This is an example of burning through money because you have it. the first Riverwalk believe it or not was built by VOLUNTEERS for FREE. What has happened to our beautiful Naperville?

75th and Washington Intersection was fine. They decided to spend 7.5 million dollars to widen it even though the growth in Naperville stopped a few years back. All they had to do is knock that grass area in the middle out on 75th street and create a few more turn lanes on 75th St. Washington was fine. A half a million dollar project ends up being 7.5 million because we have money to burn. So what if we have 2 minute delays on Friday evenings. Most towns have delays on every intersection including Oak Brook every day of the week. Better timing of the traffic lights could have helped immensely.

Imagine we put a bridge across Rt.59 for pedestriations. Name one other town crazy enough to do this besides Naperville. $2.5 million wasted down the drain and our taxes continue going through the roof.

Our city fathers are still in disbelief growth finally stopped. Most of the employees from the growth era with growth related jobs are still gainfully employed in Naperville and collecting fat pensions killing the taxpayers. Oak Brook laid their employees off when growth stopped and Plainfield even laid theirs off when growth was halted due to the recession even though growth is expected to return one day.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

PS. A very large demonstration is expected in front of City Hall on April 15 at the noon hour to protest the high taxes. Over 200 are expected. Please join us so we can wake our city officials up and have them smell the coffee instead of the dollar bill. Otherwise they will bankrupt our town or us the taxpayers. Something has to give.

To: We have money to burn...

You are truly an idiot.

Mr. Po,

If all you can do is call someone an idiot as a response it shows you are an ignornant uneducated low life not worthy of living on this planet.

Try not calling a Navy Seal an idiot or it may be your doomsday one day. Your ticket to Heaven or Hell whichever it may be.

I am a little surprised that Moderator who preaches against personal attacks allowed yours to slide in. Maybe he will delete the post as it is a personal attack and not a comment about the subject matter. Let us hope so.

OK Money to burn, Have your very large demonstration and you will be burning your own (as well as my) tax dollars as the Police Department gears up with crowd control officers there on OVERTIME. Yes, it will be overtime because as much as you think they do nothing all day long, the regular beat cars will not be reassigned to cover the demonstration. They will still be covering their beat areas to handle accidents, thefts, domestics and the kind of everyday garbage that goes on in this town.

Yeah, that is a smart way to protest taxes, create more spending. Sure, it is within your amendment rights, but don't be the one bitchin' about police overtime. Still shaking my head Sybil.

Mark F.

So we can no loonger demonstrate peacefully. There is no need for police as we are a peaceful group. The police know that and I doubt they will have more than 2 officers there from the downtown beat. No overtime unless they want to waste more dollar bills.

The city is not getting the message about tax waste. The city increased taxes 5.9% this year instead of reducing employee salaries and pensions as has happened in the private industry.

You have no credibility Mark F. It has become ever apparent that you are a beneificiary of the milking of the Naperville Taxpayers and thus always defending dry cows.

I hope to see some bloggers at City Hall tomorrow at 12 noon to protest the out of control taxation by our city officials. City Officials have done nothing but join the milking of the taxpayers by awarding themselves these fat pensions that can start as early as age 48 after being gainfully employed by the City of Naperville. Imagine employees retiring at that young age with 75% of their pay in pensions while the rest of us are still in our prime working days busting our butts.

(Let us not forget that Assistant City Manager Rob Marshall retired as a cop at roughly age 51 and is collecting a little less than $100,000 in pensions and another about $150,000 in salary while being gainfully employed by the same city he is collecting a pension from.....AMAZING GRACE! Plus he is building a SECOND PENSION at taxpayer expense that he will be vested in after 8 years. He is half way there. Can't our establishment founding fathers delay his pension till he truly retires? Why have a retirement pension for employees who can run marathons and obviously still work hard and be very productive members of society? This is ludicrous and ridiculous. Speak up Naperville Sun....don't be afraid....this in an injustice on us and you.)

I am surprised Sun Officials do not raise more hell. To the best of my knowledge they have to work for low pay and no pension till they start getting heart attacks on the job and becoming frequent visitors to Edward's Hospital. It is time the Sun raised its voice and joined the Naperville Tea Pary at City Hall tomorrow at noon.

Thank you.

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PS. Moderator Chris,
I hope a reporter will be there to cover our demonstration. I am sure you are aware of it.

Mark F.

I never said the cops do nothing all day long. Don't put words in my mouth. They were very heroic and risked their lives chasing 2 highly experienced armed robbers in a very high speed chase that had to be called off when speeds exceeded 127 miles per hour.

Two Naperville detectives stopped these thugs on Tollway 355 knowing they were both armed to the teeth with loaded guns after robbing Extra Value Liquors on Rt. 59. The thugs could have shot the police dead. The robbers then thankfully took off again giving NPD time to radio for assistance from Downers Grove, Woodridge, Lombard, Oak Brook, Dupage Sheriff and the State Police. Thankfully their vehicle flipped over due to the very high speeds and K-9 units from 2 departments finally caught them hiding in back yard bushes of neighbors. The police recovered all the stolen money, the booze and the loaded guns thrown on the highways during the high speed chase. Too bad we did not have helicopters like Los Angeles to demonstrate the bravery of the Naperville police and other police departments that evening. If these thugs were not caught every retailer was at a risk of robbery and risk to the lives of their employees.

The NPD and all the police were heroes in that Friday incident. But that does not mean we can not object to the sham transactions of police OT in regards to the Last Fling and Rib Fest where the taxpayers are skimmed out of a 100k each year for police OT. Try to be objective Mark F. even though you are a city official. You are losing your credibilty on this blog site with your narrow minded near sightedness.

OK, Why don't you let us know how many cops are at your demonstration as I have a real job and will be working while you are out there exercising your constitutional rights. You have complained about them going to court, along with the festivals, etc. so I have a right to complain that you are wasting my tax dollars on overtime for your event. It is not up to you or me to decide how best to protect the public. I leave that up to the experts. But let me say this, if something happened at your demonstration and someone was injured and there were only the 2 downtown beat officers there- wouldn't you be the first to criticize the police department for having no one there? You can't have it both ways. I am guessing that they will be there to protect your right to free speech, just as the protect the Ribfesters. So be sure to let us know the outcome.

In terms of your whole early retirement argument, that is old news, they are not going to change it and frankly, if I ever need a cop to chase down someone prowling around my neighborhood, I would rather it be someone under the age of 50. Same with the firemen coming to drag me out of a smoke filled building.

And just where did I put words in your mouth?

Finally, are you again posting as two, because you said you would not do that again? Money to burn and Those who do not vote?

Cops can't be everywhere and should not be everywhere.

It is more important for cops to be in liquor stores at night than a peaceful demonstration in front of City Hall at the noon hour.

I am not saying cops should be in liquor stores. They can't be everywhere but they did a great job with that liquor store robbery considering they were not there. No OT was involved.

Naperville is a big town and can pull even a half a dozen police from their beats if they wanted to. Most of the time these beat officers are simply writing tickets or observing. It is not the end of the world if they write less tickets for one hour. It is not like armed robberies are a daily event in town....thankfully.

I never said I would post under one name. I will change my name from thread to thread or post to post as I see fit. I would rather make a headline than boost my ego with a handle. I have told the Moderator this in a private message and he does not appear to have a problem. Why do you have a problem?

Most times bloggers are wrong when they accuse me of being so many different bloggers. This time you were right. I was both the ones you mentioned. Good job, Mark F. Now try to mellow out a little bit. Last time I checked we were not at war....at least a declared war...lol!

By We have money to burn so we burn it on April 14, 2009 4:40 PM

DS

Does the city have the authority to change the pensions provided by State law? Can the city tell the police that they will not have the statutory pensions but some other retirement arrangement?

No, we are not at war but it is disconcerting to have 2 posters tell me I am losing my credibility when in fact it is just one. Hope your weather holds out tomorrow. Report back.

Mark F wrote:

No, we are not at war but it is disconcerting to have 2 posters tell me I am losing my credibility when in fact it is just one.

There are two other problems I can think of: when you choose to use multiple handles you are less accountable for what you say from one topic to the next; also, it's sometimes difficult to keep a discussion going when one person wears a different mask every time you look at him/her.

-JQP

JQP, Mark F. and Experienced,

I am sure we all agree by now I am detectable. I am not trying to be 2 posters. I just like having a good headline that would attract readers. I had no trouble confirming to Mark F I was the same blogger when he asked me. And I will do that anytime a blogger asks me politely.

I am sure John Q. Public takes pride in his handle. There is nothing wrong with that. Everyone is different. I tried to be as Anonymous as possible by having different handles. It did not work and now I am known as the Main Anonymous who likes to change his handle.

My intent on this blog to give my opinion on topics. It is not to try to bloster my ego through some handle. Everyone is different. I accept you guys for how you are. Hopefully, you will accept me even though I like to use multiple handles from thread to thread that pertain to the topic. Not trying to destroy anyones credibility. I neither have that ability or capability. Only a blogger can destroy his own credibility for being dishonest. I will say I have always tried to be honest when blogging. No one has anything to gain by lying and will be caught in contradictions sooner or later.

Most of the attacks on me are a result of my anti-establishment views and not my persona. There are many others here with anti-establishment views. The moderator knows that. But you guys seem to think I am the only anti-establishment guy or gal in Naperville. Many times you think I am not credible because you hold me liable for what other anti-etablishment bloggers said on this blog site. While I try to refute as much as I can, contrary to what you all think this not a full time job for me.

I spend maybe an hour a day reading the Sun and blogging. That is about it. The other 23 hours a day, I do different things.

The only reason you all think I live here is because you give me credit for everything any non-establishment person states. For example I have been accused of being many people on the Willian Ayers thread. I have yet to read a single blog on that thread let alone write a single blog. I have never even visited the thread. I learned about the accusations from reading threads I blog on.

I can't believe you guys think only one person in Naperville would be upset about high taxes, government waste, or police OT. Tomorrow if you go to City Hall at noon you will find there is more than one Napergatian or anti-Establishment fellow left in Naperville. The thousands of Napergatians from the 1990s did not all leave town. They just got older and may be the new silent majority raising kids and grand kids and not demonstrating so loud as in the past. Of course the transferee Napergatians are not being replaced as the Napergate Man is retired and no longer promoting the anti-Establishment causes. So of course there are less of us and we are not as influential as in the 90s. But that is no reason to rasie the White Flag and let city officials spend money like drunken sailors on such things as beautifying the riverwalk to the tune of 1.5 million when it was already beautiful. I guess they did not like the volunteer job us residents did to build this Riverwalk 2 decades ago. Freebies do not turn city officials on. If they pay up the wazoo with our tax dollars they apparently are turned on.

Maplebrook homeowners were urged by email to vote for 2 CC incumbents based upon a single issue (a sound wall for the ill-advised 75th/Washington intersection) regardless of the numerous poor decisions by the CC over the prior years ($3M rescue of bell tower, 75th/Wash, library parking garage, pedicabs, Furstenau affair).

Another reason was the large list of nominees. Voters that wanted a change but didn't know the candidates probably split the anti-incumbent vote.

200 real people are going to show up at city hall today at noon? Or 1 guy with 200 multiple personalities is going to be standing alone in front of city hall? Hahahaha! Can't wait to see this.

By Those who did not vote will one day pay dearly.... on April 15, 2009 3:31 AM

DS

But some of us are trying to discuss the issues that you have set forth. In my case I want to discuss with you the issue of pensions and what authority the City has to change that system. You are holding the pension problem against the City leaders. What I am trying to surmise is whether your displeasure is misdirected and should be addressed to the General Assembly instead.

*Have you discussed the issue with Senger, Meyer, Connelly, etc.?
*Could the city change the system on its own without general assembly action?
*If it tried to do so, would it be buying a law suit from the employees and the State Dept of Insurance?
*Since all of the staff workers in the City are unionized, would the City have to collectively bargain any changes if it does have the unilateral authority to make changes without general assembly action?

You have identified a problem but what is the solution.

"But that is no reason to rasie the White Flag and let city officials spend money like drunken sailors on such things as beautifying the riverwalk to the tune of 1.5 million when it was already beautiful."

Genius, a couple more floods and there would be no riverwalk. You think bricks on top of mud can be sustained with no reinforcement ever?

You teabag protesters are getting played for chumps by bigtime corporate interests:

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/04/09/lobbyists-planning-teaparties/

The big money whistles the tune and stupid chumps do the dance. 100% of the protesters are getting a tax CUT under Obama, yet they protest because the tax rate for the top backet will rise by 3 points. I fully guarantee that NONE of the folks who showed up at city hall today are in that top bracket.

By Mark F on April 14, 2009 7:26 PM
OK, Why don't you let us know how many cops are at your demonstration as I have a real job and will be working while you are out there exercising your constitutional rights. You have complained about them going to court, along with the festivals, etc. so I have a right to complain that you are wasting my tax dollars on overtime for your event. Hope your weather holds out tomorrow. Report back.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Mark F.

The weather was respectable for our demonstration against higher taxes. I tried to do a physical count and I came up with 300-400 demonstraters. Not all stayed the entire time as it was their lunch hour. But I am pretty sure that many attended during the lunch hour and stayed as long as they could without endangering their employment.

As far as police, I counted 2 Naperville Police Officers. I did not approach them and ask them if they were called in as extras for OT but I have to believe they were the downtown beat officers on regular duty. I doubt the City of Naperville is going to call in riot police for a one hour peaceful demonstration. I am not sure if you can get a cop to work for one hour even if you are paying him OT. Like I said the risk at a peaceful demonstration is less than at a liquor store at night so I think you may have been overreacting when you thought Cheif Dial would call in the reserves and break the bank. If you are truly worried about police OT you need to stay focused on the Ribfest and Last Fling who use taxpayer money instead of their own procceeds for their private events. In those cases, we pay the police OT through a sham transaction which was detailed by others and I. It costs us exactly 100,000 dollars a year for this SHAM TRANSACTION performed by and at City Hall.

Making a long story short, I don't think there was OT today. If there was and I am wrong, the City paid 100 bucks in OT. However, I think a strong message was sent to the City that was well worth a 100 bucks. I saw many city employees staring at the crowds in disbelief while hiding behind the curtains of their windows. I am sure City Officials regretted giving raises this year to city employees and themselves while the civilian population took pay cuts and lost jobs. We tried to hold them accountable with our demonstration and I think we succeeded in our mission.

The muncipal center was picked as the site of the demonstration because most demonstrators while e-mailing each other felt it was most out of control in addition to the state and federal. In many cities the municipal center was not targeted. But in Naperville it was deliberately targeted because it is well known as a cremating machine that burns dollar bills. It also raised taxes on the residents this year to the tune of 5.9% while residents were truly hurting. How shameful of City Hall and its inhabitants!!!

Anyway, I hope the bloggers realize it is just not ME who is upset about higher taxes and wasteful government. I did not clone myself at the demonstration. There were real people there as involved as I am and some even more. This will not be the last demonstration against and at City Hall. Hopefully, the Naperville Sun will write an article and cover the demonstration later this evening or tomorrow. I think I saw a Naperville Sun reporter but it could have been reporter from another newspaper. It would be nice to get an Opinion from the Sun calling for higher taxes and wasteful spending to be curbed.

Most people don't like to write or blog. I do. That does not make ME the only person against higher taxes and wasteful government in this town since the Napergate Man retired. Hopefully that was demonstrated clearly today and some bloggers will ease up on the fact that this is all a Napergate Conspiracy started by one person trying to be 300 people.

Those who did not vote will one day pay dearly wrote:

The weather was respectable for our demonstration against higher taxes. I tried to do a physical count and I came up with 300-400 demonstraters. Not all stayed the entire time as it was their lunch hour. But I am pretty sure that many attended during the lunch hour and stayed as long as they could without endangering their employment.

Too bad there wasn't a hot dog cart there so those people could get a bite to eat while they exercised their constitutional rights.

Those who did not vote will one day pay dearly.... wrote

Many times you think I am not credible because you hold me liable for what other anti-etablishment bloggers said on this blog site. While I try to refute as much as I can, contrary to what you all think this not a full time job for me.

And:

The only reason you all think I live here is because you give me credit for everything any non-establishment person states. For example I have been accused of being many people on the Willian Ayers thread. I have yet to read a single blog on that thread let alone write a single blog. I have never even visited the thread. I learned about the accusations from reading threads I blog on.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You wouldn't have these problems of being misidentified if you'd stick with one handle all of the time. And you'd be just as anonymous---as long as you didn't use your real name!

How's this for irony: the post at 6:33 PM was mine.

-JQP

John Q. Public,

On a more serious note this large demonstration proves I am not the only one raising hell about higher taxes and government waste in Naperville and elsewhere.

Yes, I was probably the first to protest heavily on this blog site nearly 2 years ago but I did feel and predicted the residents would eventualy smell the coffee and wake up.

Some lady that talked to the 2 police officers stated they estimated the crowd at 400. A council man estimated the crowd at 400-500. I did forget to mention there were a couple of snipers on the roof of City Hall wasting taxpayer money. How ridiculous of Chief Dial to have snipers stationed against peaceful demonstrators. This is not Somalia....hello!

Naperville is very wealthy and may be one of the last cities to fully wake up but it is waking up gradually and surely.

At this momemnt the police union is asking for a 6% raise. Our new bold city manager who is not a former police officer(Thank God) is only offering them 1.5%. He is being very generous. The police are telling him to take a hike.

Thus it will go to arbitration and the only option is to grant 1.5% or 6%. There is no in between once it goes to arbitration.

It is ironic that the police we pay to protect us are now attempting to rob our tax dollars so they can live like Kings and Queens while we struggle to make ends meet. They not only get paid real well but get huge retirement pensions at age 52 that are guaranteed by taxpayers despite the decline in the market and the devastation of their pension funds.

No one can say it is only ME complaining. No one can say I was all 400 residents at the demonstration against taxes. No one can say I cloned myself. I suspect the Sun will soon wake up and take a stance against the 6% raise the police union is demanding...unless of course they are afraid of the police and their snipers.

Wow, big turn out in many locations. I wonder what percentage of those in attendance at the many rallies in Chicagoland are currently unemployed?

If I really cared that much, I would file an FOI and ask how much was paid in overtime. If there were 2 snipers on the roof, rest assured there were many more than 2 other beat officers assigned to that location. Probably plain clothes officers also. You may think it is ridiculous, but after that City Hall shooting in Missouri last year, I don't believe police departments would take chances with a large crowd of peaceful, but disgruntled residents and some of their favorite politicians. All it takes is one crazy person with a gun for disaster to strike and after the bloody month of March, right here in the US (NOT SOMALIA) you cannot say that that is an impossibility. As you say, Wake up and smell the coffee.

Although these events were touted as bipartisan, looked like some Obama admin. bashing going on, a photo of one sign comparing him to Hitler.

On your local topic- the police union, I would be very surprised to see any union get an annual raise of 6% in this economy even if they are well below the average of salaries for benchmark agencies. Is that 6% across the life of the contract? Where did you get that information, was that published? Also, you have not answered Experienced's question about the City's authority to change the pension plans. You obviously see this as a big problem so what is your solution?

Mark, do you notice any ironic contradiction between your concern about the cost of government and your almost casual mention of possibly filing a FOI request (which would require people in the government to track down some obscure information instead of spending their time doing some more productive work)?

To Anon 10

There is no contradiction because I had no intention of filing that FOI just to prove our multi personality blogger wrong about the number of officers on overtime. I don't care enough about the debate with that individual to spend the taxpayers money in that manner. But here is the irony, I stopped a Naperville officer as I crossed Portillo's lot at lunch today and asked how many officers were at City Hall yesterday. He thought about 10. He had no idea on costs. The point is, you should not inflate or minimize costs to attempt to make your opinion credible. That rally cost the city money in overtime. Plain and simple. I have a right to object.

I also do not call the City to pick up dead rabbits in the road (like neighbors do) as I have a shovel, plastic bags and a garbage can. I would be happy to have brush collection reduced to once a year instead of twice. I can bag my leaves. There are many cost cutting measures to save taxes and it is not all at the expense of public safety. And I agree that no one needs a 6% raise this year, but I have yet to hear of a cop moving into one of our McMansions. So, I can live without comments such as police living "like Kings and Queens while we struggle to make ends meet". Give me a break.

Mark F.

You are acting like a smart-a-lic today. You asked me to report back and I did. I saw 2 uniformed officers. I reported what I saw. A friend of mine told me after I wrote my first blog I missed the 2 snipers on the roof. I trusted her and reported that.

Now if there were 6 undercover officers dressed like demonstrators and I did not recognize them, that makes me not credible??? That is why they call them undercover, dummy. So we don't recoginize them!!!

I had an opportunity to talk to a councilman who told me no OT was used for the demonstration. He did verifty that undercover detectives were there but did know the number. These detectives are usually trying to solve crimes or collect on bounced checks. They were asked to cease working on their cases for an hour and be at the demonstration. I think this was a very smart move by Chief David Dial to save the taxpayers money. It is practical. Sometimes those detectives working on bounced checks need to get some fresh air for an hour. When they go back to their boring tasks, I believe they will be refreshedand work harder.

I think you are twisted that the multi-personality blogger made a prediction that 200 demonstrators would show up and over 400 showed up. I think you are upset about that. I am not the only one in Naperville that beleives that taxation has gotten too high and government waste must stop. I was only one of many organizers of that demonstration. I will take credit for the location though. It was not hard to persuade my fellow organizers that was a great symbolic location. I am sure you all know after 2 years of my blogging why I thought that was a great location to protest.

____________________________________________________________________

I am "Those Who do not Vote will Pay Dearly" but am changing my handle since it has become obsolete. Using multiple handles to descirbe subjects does not make you a multi-personality. I have not changed my postion from 2 years ago that City Hall is wasting taxpayer dollars. An increase of 5.89% coming up in a few days on our real estate tax bills will verify what I have been preaching for 2 years. Now the cops want 6% raises. They are not willing to compromise and will take the city to arbitration at a great legal expense to the taxpayer. Let us see what the Furstenau bashers have to say about the waste of legal dollars this time.

but I have yet to hear of a cop moving into one of our McMansions. So, I can live without comments such as police living "like Kings and Queens while we struggle to make ends meet". Give me a break.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mark F.

Assistant City Manager Robert Marshall collects nearly 100k in pension from being a police officer for 30 years. At age 52 after "retirement" he began working for the city for about 150k. With his 250k plus other income including interest and dividends, he can more than afford to live in one of those mansions.

Most police officers pick up good jobs when they retire and collect pensions of about 75k to 100k. If anyone can afford to live like Kings and Princes, it is them. I am sorry you can not smell the coffee and accept the truth.

Keep babbling on here while I make minced meat out of your credibility. Calling me mulit-personality because I use handles that promote my message only makes you look immature and ignorant.

By Big Fat City Pensions will get my Tax Refund on April 16, 2009 5:02 PM

DS

So, again I ask you, what is your solution and who is to implement it? Can the city implement it unilaterally or does the General Assembly have to pass the legislation first? If the City can implement it unilaterally without General Assembly action, does the city have to collectively bargain the issue with the unions or can the city just force it on the unions?

Let's get our plan together so that we can start lobbying the governmental body that must start the ball rolling. You were with Rep. Senger yesterday. Did you talk to her about it? I think we are behind you but we need you to lead us in the right direction.

Well, evidently you called your inside source Dick and HE is never wrong as we all know. I guess it does not matter that your request bi-passed the Freedom of Information Act, yet resulted in the same staff cost to determine if any of those assigned were on overtime. And don't even try to tell me that Chief Dial knows the schedule of all of his employees off the top of his head and could provide that information extemporaneously. I certainly do not want to "start a war" with you. I get that you are passionate about your beliefs. All I want is for you to quit parading your assumptions as gospel.

And I would also point out that you are the one calling me a dummy. Yeah, I'm the dummy because I am aware of the fact that a demonstration at City Hall would pull in more that 2 officers and initially, because you could not see them, they were not there. And I am twisted too. Of course, you never start any of the name calling.

I see that you will never get over the fact that Robert Marshall played his cards right, DID NOTHING ILLEGAL, and is making a good living. I hope every officer that retires does the same. They put up with the public (like you) who obviously think they don't risk enough in life to earn a decent living. Might I remind you of the 7 officers that died in Oakland/Pittsburg. Unlike you, I don't begrudge people their good fortune. Heck, I hope the Hot Dog Cart man makes a fortune this summer.

You are the most negative person on this site and if you are truly hurting financially, I am sorry for that. Maybe it's your Karma.

By Mark F on April 16, 2009 3:32 PM
To Anon 10

There is no contradiction because I had no intention of filing that FOI just to prove our multi personality blogger wrong about the number of officers on overtime.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mark F.,

You called me a multi-personality blogger in the post preceding the one I called you a dummy. I find that offensive.

Further you state, "All I want is for you to quit parading your assumptions as gospel."

Then you further state, "That rally cost the city money in overtime. Plain and simple. I have a right to object."

You admit you have no evidence and you make your gospel assumption that the rally cost the city money in overtime. You are really making a fool of yourself with your contradictory statements.

I was there and talked to several people. I talked to people after the rally. Most know or believe the undercover cops there were just detectives already on duty. Detectives that investigate serious crimes and bounced checks until they are solved. They took a break from their work a few blocks away. No big deal! A bounced check is not an urgent matter that will not allow a detective or police officer to be reassigned for one hour literally across the street. Common Mark F., have a little common sense.

What you are trying to say is that Chief Dial called in 10 police officers to work 1 hour of OT for a peaceful demonstration. Your theory and assumptions make absolutely no sense unless Chief Dial likes to waste taxpayer money and inconvenience his officers to come in for one hour on their day off. Separate them from their families on their day off. Not allow them to rest on their day off.

Naperville has over 200 sworn police officers with nearly 80 working each 12 hour shift. It is very easy for Chief Dial to pull 8 officers from various locations to cover a one hour demonstration. 2 of the officers there were already from the downtown beat. This of course assumes your assumption of 10 being there to be correct. I only saw 2 and my friend saw 2 others. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that 6 plainclothes were there that my friend and I simply missed.

When the bars downtown close at 2am Friday and Saturday many police officers show up for about an hour at about 1:15 am and stay till 2:15am. Do you think these officers are woken up and asked to work this one hour OT when they need a lot of officers at bar closings? They are pulled from various other beats in town for the hour and then return to their beats. No big deal. While I am no expert I am sure they are pulled from alternating beats so adjoining beat officers have to cover a larger beat area until the officers return from downtown.

In the slight chance that you are right and I am wrong, than Police Chief Dial is not using his officers in the best way possible to minimize OT. Maybe that could explain why he had 3.15 million in OT. Keep in mind the City Council ORDERED him to reduce his overtime by 5% so I doubt he would have made the mistake of calling in 10 police officers to work one hour of OT when he had 70 officers already working at his disposal with jobs that could be postponed or tickets that did not have to be written. Chief Dial is not going to risk his job and add OT when there are alternatives. The city council members made it very clear to him that he had to reduce OT by 5%. My source is not a council man or woman. I watched the city council meeting on cable TV.

And once again I will repeat myself and state you are acting like a smart-a-lic who borders on a dummy. And once again I will repeat myself and state you called me a multiple personality first. I take offense to that comment. So watch your words, big guy, before you ask others to watch their words.

As far as former Captain Robert Marshall, you made the comment that no cop can afford a mansion. I was just stating that Mr. Marshall with his 150k salary, near 100k pension, dividends and interest can easily afford to live in a mansion. I never said he did anything illegal, Mr. Smartalic. I stated he could afford to live in a mansion. Your remarks "DID NOTHING ILLEGAL" were inappropriate and uncalled for.

I do have a gripe with city employees retiring from one job, collecting a pension, and being gainfully employed by the same city with another job, working on a second pension, while supposedly being "retired." If you read the thread about Double Dipping, you would have seen many residents were also upset. These city policies have caused city real estate taxes to skyrocket.

People are waking up. It was relatively easy to get 400-500 at City Hall to protest. Next time it will be much more. I will once again recommend to my fellow organizers that the location should be City Hall. If you are truly concerned about OT, than write Chief Dial about the $100,000 in police OT he wastes on 2 private charity events...we don't have to guess or speculate here. It is documented....albeit through a sham transaction.

As far as how risky to life it is to be a Naperville Police Officer..... The last police officer to die in Naperville was the Chief in 1929. That was 80 years ago. He died chasing a robber on his motorcycle. I am on record for condemning the recent purchase of 2 spanking new motorcyles by the NPD due to the unnecessary risk it brings to police officers especially on high speed chases.

We just had a high speed chase by Naperville Police Officers against 2 armed thugs that robbed Extra Value Liquors. Thankfully they were in cars and not motorcycles. The chase ended successfully with the robbers flipping their vehicle and K-9 units capturing them hiding under bushes in Downers Grove about 15-20 miles from the location of the robbery. I commended the Naperville Police and the other 5 police departments involved in that heroic chase. I am not anti-police. I am simply anti-fat pensions of all city employees including police. I am anti-6% raises to the police employees when most residents are struggling to make ends meet and some are even losing their homes, because they can not pay the high real estate taxes due to incompetence by government.

Now be respectful Mark F. and cut out the name calling and I will do likewise. It is counterproductive. We need to all be focused on the good cause of reducing taxes by curbing government waste. Let us keep people in their homes.

Experienced,

I did talk to Representative Senger about it and she seems to have a great grasp of the problem. She is a very junior representative and in my humble opinion does not have the clout to do much about the pension problem at this time. But she understands very clearly if nothing is done, the State of Illinois will be bankrupted. She is a very smart lady. She needs to get some hands on experience down there as to how to sponsor bills. We need to give her some time.

The pension for the most part is a state issue and not a city issue. But the city of Naperville council has not used its clout to try to overhaul the pension system in the state. They have used their clout on other issues and even gone to Springfield....sometimes as one large group.

With so many powerful city officials being former City Police Officers collecting FAT PENSIONS, the will is not there to committ "financial suicide." I am sure you know what I mean, EXPERIENCED.

The only thing the City of Naperville can do is reduce salaries. Reducing salaries by 33% for new starting police and fire fighters will reduce future pensions by 33%. Our pension fund deficit is $61.5 million for police and fire only and this is before the market crashed. CM BOB provided the numbers on this blog site to everyone. I recently had a chance to meet CM BOB very briefly and casually and I believe he is a good man that we can trust....a very good man. I just had good vibes in the few moments I was in his presence with others....very good vibes.

The city can also make sure raises and promotions are not given to retiring employees to boost retirement pensions. This is a common practice in Lisle and Woodridge and also in many school districts. I do not have any evidence against the City of Naperville but I have a few people keeping a close eye for me. Plus CM Dick Furstenau watches the police department like a hawk. I am sure everyone already knows that so I am not bringing any new news to anyone. But it could be because DF watches them, they do not engage in raises and promotions right before retirement to pad their pensions. This does help immensely with controlling the skyrocketing pension deficit.

Sometimes I wish the Naperville Sun would watch our departments like a hawk. But I understand that they have severe budget constraints. Thus it becomes very important for us bloggers to become the eyes and ears of the Sun. The former host and moderator, Ted Slovick and Jim Lynch respectively, said we were very valuable and considered us citizen reporters.

The current moderator, Chris Magee, has never indicated if he felt like the former host and moderator. Hopefulluy he does and will one day use the information we supply him when he feels it is appropriate.

Big Fat City Pensions will get my Tax Refund on April 17, 2009 7:46 AM

I am on record for condemning the recent purchase of 2 spanking new motorcyles by the NPD due to the unnecessary risk it brings to police officers especially on high speed chases.

___________________

Big Fat. Since you claim to not be a multi personality blogger can you point out where you are "on record" for condemning the motorcycle purchase? I searched the archives and did not find any handle titled "Big Fat City Pensions"?

By Big Fat City Pensions will get my Tax Refund on April 17, 2009 8:49 AM

DS

From some simple quick research on www.theblueline.com, that would drop Naperville to $33,591. I couldn't find any that low except maybe Waubonsie Comm. College if you annualize it. (48,713 aurora, 53,000 wheaton, 45,800 bolingbrook, 57,115 batavia) Even the new village of Campton Hills would pay more--40,000. South Chicago which is bankrupt pays 35,000. Is that what you want, the lowest paid police department? What type of applicants do you think we'd get? After our tax dollars had trained them, how long would they stay before they went to the higher paid departments.

Next the city would have to collectively bargain the issue with the police union. What could the city give to the police union where they'd agree to set up two classes of officers? What type of morale problem would the City be creating setting up two classes of police officers?

The fix has to come from Springfield. Have you talked to Kirk yet?

My dearest Big Fat,

I am sorry that you took offense at being called multi-personality. You really do have only one personality, and I admit that I find it/your blogging style annoying. You ridicule me, call me a dummy, smart aleck (proper spelling), say that I make no sense, have no common sense, that I am making a fool of myself with contradictory statements, and that my NOTHING ILLEGAL comment was inappropriate and uncalled for– ALL of this language in your most recent response at 3:32PM 4/16... and you complain simply because I I call you multi-personality?!!! Do you honestly think that was an attack and it warranted your damnation? It’s ok because I can take it, but let me gently remind you that you very often tell people to "grow thicker skin". And frankly, the more appropriate designation for you would have been the multi-alias blogger. You used to pretend to be several different bloggers as proven by the moderator, yet I know that you have cut back on that practice. So maybe we can both live with the multi-alias designation.

I did say that there had to have been officers there on overtime and I am surprised if that is wrong, but that does not negate the fact that the time, even straight time, spent at the rally was time not spent doing other police work, so there is always a dollar amount involved. I really have no beef with that rally or other future rallies, I just think it is hypocritical of you to complain about the cost of services when you are in essence creating additional services. Every single time you call Dick or Doug or any other council person, you have the potential to spend city employee time to support your many theories. Watch a council meeting and see how many times the council ask staff to get back to them on different issues. If you ask a question of the council and they have to get back to you, some city worker is trying to find the answer. Please do not insult them by inferring that they were not doing anything anyway. You know as well as I, that as staffing is cut, the work gets spread around. Rarely do you see services cut back. As I said in a previous post, I could live with some service cutbacks from the City.

I am not going to use a whole lot of my time arguing with you on everything in your response because it is fairly pointless. However, you just cannot be serious about having 80 officers available at any given time. Think about it again. The annual report available on the Naperville website says there are 185 sworn personnel including the Chief and his staff of commanders, so that is nearly 200 but they are not all beat officers or detectives and even IF they were, are you assuming they work 12 hour days, EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK? They don’t work 84 hours in a week! Talk about overtime! On top of that, there are vacations, illnesses and injuries. You are WAY – WAY off on those figures.

We will never agree on the issue of “double dipping” because the facts are, police and fire personnel retire under the existing pension plan at a fairly young age. They get paid a pension from that point forward, whether they stay home or not. Most chose a second business or career. He or she could be a consultant or a Walmart greeter and they will get their pension no matter what. The City has all the other hundreds of positions under IMRF, a separate pension fund. No matter who fills each of those positions, the City is obligated to contribute to IMRF on behalf of that position. So, you can either hire a newby or take someone with 25-30 years of service, and a good track record as an employee. The City will spend the same amount of money on the newby as the retiree. So how is this such a problem for you???? Again, are you envious or do you just begrudge other people their good fortune? This deal is neither unethical or illegal and cost you no more than if your brother got the job.

For the record, I agree with you on the festivals costing too much in city services (not just police), but disagree with the suggested solution of having private security take over for the police. Stupid idea, no matter who came up with it.

For the record, I agree with you on the motorcycle issue. But please do not use the fact that only one officer has died in the line of duty to dispute the risks here. It can happen anywhere at any time. My college buddy had an older brother ambushed and murdered on a traffic stop several years ago. And thank God that officer hit on Washington Street recently was inside his car and not killed in that collision. You could not pay me enough to take their risks. Maybe you are pro police but don’t want to pay them much? And I already said no one should get 6% this year, so don’t beat me with that stick. Now, if you got all the way to this point maybe you can see just how annoying it is to read your rambling posts. Go ahead and call me names. Sticks and stones.

Mark F.

Don't call me multiple personality and I won't call you names.

Feel free to call me the multi-handle blogger. That I am. Multi-personality I am not. I have been very consistent with my views against government waste and higher taxes. It has been my cause and mission. I have not wavered one bit in 2 years. I was gratified to see hundreds of people appear before City Hall to express the same feelings.

A grass roots movement is finally building against government for their waste and higher taxes. Rick Santelli from CNBC called for these Tea Parties Nationwide. I saw it live on TV when he went ballistic. He had a standing ovation from the traders in Chicago Pit and apparently motivated the country to wake up. I was only involved in helping and organize the local demonstration at City Hall. There were many other organizers who worked harder than I did....much harder!

I did promote this demonstration on this blog site a few times and I hope some bloggers attended. I pounded the pavement in my subdivision and it was nice to see some of my neighbors at the demonstration. These demonstrations are not easy to organize and no one person can be responsible for them. They are joint efforts by several groups. My main responsibity was choosing the location and I think I chose the right location since in my opinion City Hall wastes the most money out of any government entity.

I am only hoping rally organizers and leaders agree to return to the same exact location next time we demonstrate. I do not know if City Hall got the message yet. Only time will tell. Let us see if they dare raise our real estate taxes next year another 5.89% despite the decline in value of our homes. I am guessing they will not raise our taxes next year.

The new City Manager(who is not a former police officer...thankfully) is only offering the police union 1.5%. He is being extremely generous and reasonable with the police. They are being ridiculous demanding 6% or ARBITRATION. Going to arbitration means they want 6%. Nothing less! If they lose they get 1.5%. If they win they get 6%. If they get 6%, we will have a 6% increase on our city portion of our real estate tax bill next year just like this year. That I can guarantee.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Mark F.

The 80 was a typo error. It was suppose to 70 and you will find my 70 number a paragraph later. More police officers work the day time shift than night time shift. The big shots, the administrators, many detectives only work the day time shift. So if my 70 number is too high for the day time shift out of nearly 200 sworn police officers, I would concede it could be 50-60. I really don't know. But whether it was 50 or 60, pulling 10 of those officers for one hour is not an insurmountable task. It makes sense. One council man did tell me there was no OT used. The CM was not Furstenau. If OT was used, I suspect we would have heard from Dick Furstenau of the waste of taxpayer money. He will bring it up in the next City Council meeting that I will watch on TV. I will report back if he mentions OT at this demonstration.

Keep in mind many police officers are just monitoring traffic and writing tickets most of the day. It really is not the end of the world if a few speeders get away for one hour. In my opinion 99% of speeders are not caught. So for one hour 100% of speeders are not caught. Really, that is no big deal. It is not worth OT especially when the Police Chief is under orders by the City Council to reduce OT by 5%....no ifs, ors or butts they told him. Yes, I saw that live on TV. It is first hand knowledge from my cable wires...lol!!!

By Anonymous on April 17, 2009 11:31 AM
Big Fat City Pensions will get my Tax Refund on April 17, 2009 7:46 AM

Since you claim to not be a multi personality blogger can you point out where you are "on record" for condemning the motorcycle purchase? I searched the archives and did not find any handle titled "Big Fat City Pensions"?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am a multi handle blogger....not multi personality. I condemned the motorcycle purchases several times. Check the 14 Napergate Threads on the Archives and you will find them. I am not doing your homework for you. I am sure some bloggers can recall their condemnation by ME using a different handle since they all claim they recognize my style of writing. I condemned them after CM Bob reported that our former Chief of Police, 80 years ago, was killed chasing a robber on his motorcycle. The year was 1929. The only Naperville Police Office ever killed in the line of duty in our 178 history. Most factories would love to have such a record. But one is one too much to lose in the line of duty. And this death was avoidable if motorcylces were not permissible in the NPD. We could have had a perfect record in our NPD of no deaths ever.

By Anonymous on April 17, 2009 11:54 AM
By Big Fat City Pensions will get my Tax Refund on April 17, 2009 8:49 AM

From some simple quick research on www.theblueline.com, that would drop Naperville to $33,591.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Starting NPD officers make a few dollars short of 60k for starting pay according to numbers from last year. I suspect it is over 60k now.

A 33% reduction will give them 40k per year. This is something we have to do until they agree to retire at an older age and with a 50% pension instead of 75% so we don't have to subsidize them so much with our tax dollars. Did you not read CM Bob's report that they(PO @ FF) had a pension deficit of $61.5 million before the stock market crumbled? Do you think I make this stuff up?

We need to squeeze them as they are squeezing us. Did you not hear that our fine officers in blue are DEMANDING a 6% raise this year? If we don't give it to them they are going to arbitration. I am not willing to experience any more real estate taxes increases because of their shenanigans and insensitivity to the residents.

Big Fat, I asked this question before and you did not answer, where did you get this information about the PD contract negotiations? Was it printed in the Sun as I would like to read it. How many years are they asking for in the contract and how much each year or is it 6 percent over the life of the contract? I want ALL the details before I jump to some conclusion.

Mark F,

The information came directly from a Council Man. It is 6% for this coming year ALONE. The CM was angry.

Why is everyone here afraid to call a Council Man? They don't bite. They are very friendly.

CM Bob has always urged people to call him and hardly anyone ever calls him.

Don't rely on my second hand information. Call your favorite coucil man and try to corroborate what I am saying.

If we get it from 2 independent sources, we both will have more credibility.

By Big Fat City Pensions will get my Tax Refund on April 17, 2009 7:34 PM

DS

Why would the police union agree to the reduction in starting pay in collective bargaining? Would you give them the 6% they seek overall if they agree to the reduction? If not, what would you give them in order for them to agree to the reduction? Do you think if the question of starting pay went to arbitration that an independent arbitrator would agree to a 33% reduction in starting pay?

Big Fat City Pensions will get my Tax RefundOne on April 17, 2009 7:24 PM
I condemned the motorcycle purchases several times. Check the 14 Napergate Threads on the Archives and you will find them. I am not doing your homework for you.

_____________

Thanks Big Fat. Now I believe you. On the same thread in the archives I found the names Beilen, Patricia, Virginia, McFarland all with similar views condemning the motorcycle purchase. Were these all you? (According to the Sun they are)

Not sure I believe your defense of the multi personality claim against you. In all of the same archives you seemed to be carrying on conversations with yourself by complimenting your "alter ego's" while simultaneously criticizing anyone going against your multi handle views.

Amonymous,

That is an old story.

I was 40 or 50 of them.

I was not all 200 bloggers posting against higher taxes and government waste. Many were amongst the 400 at the tax day demonstration at City Hall. Real people.

I think that has been proven time and again.

I am still blogging with a multi handle and the Sun does not have a problem.

What is your problem?

If you want to know it is me, just ask my friend.

I tried to stay anonymous by using mult-handles. That was the purposes....the only purpose. To a great extent it worked with only one person finally identifying me.

Big Fat City Pensions will get my Tax Refund on April 18, 2009 2:34 PM
Amonymous,

That is an old story.

I was 40 or 50 of them.

I was not all 200 bloggers posting against higher taxes and government waste. Many were amongst the 400 at the tax day demonstration at City Hall. Real people.

I think that has been proven time and again.

I am still blogging with a multi handle and the Sun does not have a problem.

What is your problem?

___________

I have no problem with multi handles. It is when you use /used multi handles on the SAME thread to give the appearance of large support for your positions while renouncing anyone with a differing view. Your use of multi handle personalities on the same thread gave the appearance of a large group of supporters when all along it was just you. Particularly where you would carry on conversations with yourself.

You claim credibility, but you used this deceptive tactic to try to prove your point instead of just trying to make your point as one! In my opinion you invented these additional fictional characters to bolster your argument because apparently it was too weak to stand alone!

Anonymous,

If you studied my pattern, I usually use a handle for a while before I change it. Many of the people I praised
and were praising me were not ME.

Keep in mind I was not all 200 people. I was 40-50 of them. Did I ever get carried away and end up praising MYSELF. Yes, I made that mistake a few times unintentionally.

Once it was pointed out to me that I made that mistake of once praising one of my own handles, I made sure I never did it again.

I have changed to using phrases many months ago and the complaints still keep coming. None of my phrase handles has ever praised another phrase handle. If you can find a single incident, please reveal it.

John Q. Public complained about my use of a few phrases so I consolidated them all into Big Fat City Pensions will get my Tax Refund to please him.

The complaints keep coming in many months after the issue has been resolved of multi-hanldes. It seems like so many bloggers live in the past. They can not tackle my current message.

Contrary to what you say my message is very strong and getting stronger by the day. As I stated and estimated on this blog site I only expected 200 people at the demonstration I was partially responsible for organizing. Over 400 people showed up. I guess my fellow organizers believed in the cause more than I thought they did.

I did not renounce anyone with a different view. No one had a different view. All they did is attack ME instead of my MESSAGE.

By Anonymous on April 19, 2009 2:00 PM
You claim credibility, but you used this deceptive tactic to try to prove your point instead of just trying to make your point as one!

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

I used this "deceptive tactic" to remain anonymous. I used female and male names so no one would know if I am a female or male. To this day no one knows if I am a female or male.

When you blog 2000 times and talk about yourself people can thread your posts and figure out who you are. Thus I don't talk about myself. I give hypothetical examples to make my points. Suddenly, Original Joe thinks I am struggling to pay my real estate taxes. As a matter of fact I am not and very well to do. But I am truly concerned about all my less fortunate neighbors and friends who are struggling to pay their real estate taxes because of the waste of our government officials in City Hall. I am called cocky yet it seems like I am the only one concerned about others. Most bloggers are only concerned about themselves and the "reputation" of their handle.

Yes, Experience, has claimed he knows who I am. I have just been playing along with him. He has no clue who I am. He threw some hints and I just agreed with him to throw him off. You could say I employed "deceptive practices" to let Experience think he knows who I am. To let him think he is intimidating me. To let him think he can send a bunch of thugs to my front door who would threaten me if I continue my campaign against City Hall. While, I am not 100% sure, I do believe Experienced is a lawyer in our legal department. He finally admitted he was a lawyer and a lawyer not working in City Hall would not have the interest he has in discrediting my cause and campaign against City Hall. Experience is attempting to "blackmail" me into silence. He will never succeed. He knows I am telling the truth. He simply can not defend the truth such as his buddies in the City Police Dept. are demanding a 6% annual raise while the taxpayers taking it up the wazooo from every which direction possible.

I was hoping he would take a crack at revealing my identity so I could make a fool of him. He never took a crack at revealing it because he knew I was not who he thought I was.

Thus I have succeeded in maintaining my anonymity while pushing my message and cause. That has always been my goal and it appears I have been successful in both my goals.

I never renounced anyone with a different position. No one ever came on here and said they are for higer taxes, government waste or big fat pensions. They simply attacked me for my blogging style...think about that for a second!

The moderator told you guys a 100 times not to make me the issue. Every time I attack City Hall for wasting taxpayer money, you come back and attack me for using multi-handles 6 months again. You all sound like broken records. Which one of you folks has made a good argument that the city is not wasting taxpayer money? Step forward and name yourself or your handle.

By Big Fat City Pensions will get my Tax Refund

DS

OK, let's get back on topic and answer some unanswered questions. If you were mayor or a city councilman or city manager, how would you get the police union to agree to a 33% reduction in pay for entry level employees? It is a mandatory bargaining issue that the city cannot impose on the union without collective bargaining.

Experienced,

Simple! The city can tell the union we are not hiring any new cops until you agree to our concession. The current police would be working a lot harder with less police and eventually buckle under the pressure of all that extra work.

Bargaining is a 2 way street. The union can not impose its will on the city and the city can not impose its will on the union. The city can ask for a 33% reduction and through collective bargaining agree to a 16.5% reduction as a compromise. Are you not aware the GM, Ford and Chrysler bargained and got their union employees to reduce their wages and benefits. Was there not mandatory and collective bargaining involved in those cases? Of course there were, Experienced. You should know. You are an attorney who shoud be well informed on such issues. Maybe that is why all you folks in the city legal dept. are constantly farming out all your work to outside legal firms instead of trying to do it in house and saving the taxpayers some money.

But when unions are unreasonable and many times they are, the city has the FINAL ACE in the HOLE.

The City of Toledo exercised its ACE in the HOLE today and laid off 150 police officers because they simply could no longer afford them. The union could not prevent the lay-offs. The union lost due to its greed. They got what they bargained for and much more.

Our council members are lacking the WILL to stand up to the police union. They do not have the backbone. They need to be much tougher before it is too late and we are forced to lay off a 100 police officers. Let us not forget we had a 61.5 million P @ F pension fund deficit before the stock market even crashed. I estimate it is approaching 100 million these days. If the taxpayers can not afford to pay it or are unwilling to pay it, the only solution is to lay off more police officers. Is this what the police dept wants? Is this what Napervillians want? Compromise is always better. The police need to make some serious sacrifices. Asking for a 6% raise is ludicrous. What say you, Experienced?

_________________________________________________________________________________________

PS. I like how you changed the subject rather than admit to your fellow bloggers that you never really knew who I was after claiming you knew...lol...

BFPC:

Keep in mind I was not all 200 people. I was 40-50 of them. Did I ever get carried away and end up praising MYSELF. Yes, I made that mistake a few times unintentionally.

Can you name 10 Napergatian handles that were not you?

...it was pointed out to me that I made that mistake of once praising one of my own handles, I made sure I never did it again.

Once? You just said this occurred a few times. That's the way I remember it, too. And why did this need to be pointed out to you in order for you to stop?

John Q. Public complained about my use of a few phrases so I consolidated them all into Big Fat City Pensions will get my Tax Refund to please him.

Actually, I complained about your changing your handle every few posts, and from topic to topic, as it is both annoying and pointless. If you want to stick with this handle from now on, I'm good with that. If you are afraid of losing your anonymity, let me ask: do you have any idea who I am? I can assure you if you do that you are almost certainly wrong. Do you know who Experienced is? How about T.B.? Original Joe? Ken? One Who Values You? The only posters whose identity I know are those who've chosen to either post with their full names, like Thom Higgins, and those who've kept it no secret, like Councilman Bob and Dan D. I doubt any of your multiple handles had anything to do with Experienced supposedly figuring out who you are, so I don't think you've got anything to lose by sticking with one handle.

-JQP

JQP,

You have your choice to stick with one handle or use multiple handles on this blog site.

I have chosen to use multiple handles and will continue to do so. I have been using my current handle for too long and I am getting tired of it. Expect me to change it soon and not for the purpose of deception.

I am using my handles as a headline to promote a cause. I am not trying to deceive anyone.

Keep in mind every blogger on this blog site has stated that they can identify me without a doubt from my style of writing.

Can you name one blogger who stated he or she can not identity my style of writing? So how can you say I am deceiving anyone when every blogger is on record as being able to identify me from my style of writing. You can not have it both ways, JQP.

So who am I deceiving?

Plesase name one blogger that I am deceiving.

Experienced did not identify who I am.

I believe I could have easily been identified if I used one handle and did not throw some loops here and there to keep the bloggers heading in all the wrong directions. For example if I used Blake, bloggers could have identified me as a male. If I used Marilyn, bloggers could have identified me as a female. Using both keeps bloggers from knocking out half the population and closing in on me.
Maybe I am just a step ahead of everyone else.

I have been living in Naperville for over 4 decades. Enough people know me where they can put 2 and 2 together if I made it that easy. I usually give them 2 and 1 and tell them it equals 4. I do it deliberately and you could call it a form of "deception." You heard your fellow bloggers stating they would like to send someone to my front door. Can you blame me?

You came to town a year or two ago when it was a big town. You don't have a track record where you could be identified that easily I have a track record that can identify me.

I respect your way of blogging. I love the handle you chose for yourself. It is my favorite handle by the way. Now try to respect that I am different and like to do things in my own creative way. I like to think out of the box. You will never catch me following a shephard. Trust me on that one.

Have a nice evening, JQP! I have used BigFat hundreds of times. I am getting very tired of it. Sorry! Please forgive me but I will be choosing a new handle soon and it is not for the purpose of deception as you think of deception.

By John Q. Public on April 19, 2009 11:36 PM
BFPC:

Once? You just said this occurred a few times. That's the way I remember it, too. And why did this need to be pointed out to you in order for you to stop?

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

It was pointed out once and I stopped.

Now the Moderator has pointed out to you dozens of times to stop discussing this issue and my personality. Dozens and dozens of times. He is on record that we should be discussing the issues. He is fed up with this nonsense as much as I am.

You ask me why there was a need to point it out once. Because maybe I am imperfect. A little constructive criticism is good.

Now let me ask you why is there a need to point something out to you dozens and dozens of times, John Q. Public, and why you are not listening. Why do you have to be told more than ONCE?

Are you really that DENSE that the Moderator needs to keep repeating himself over and over again to stop discussing the old issues you are putting forth.

Notice every time I try to talk about current issues like the police negotiations, you guys and gals all circle back to where the moderator asked you not to circle back to.

Are you really all that DENSE? I guess you guys and gals are all that DENSE.

I was told ONCE and stopped! I listened. Period! You all refuse to listen. Why?

__________________________________________________________________

PS. And don't play your dumb semantics game with me. The ONCE was in reference to the number of times it was pointed out to me before I stopped and not in reference to the few times I admitted doing it. You clearly know that is what I meant!

If you want to continue in this hostile manner, I will make minced meat out of the reputation of your handle. I will destroy your credibility and force you to change your handle. It is your choice, Mr. John Q. Public. I think your ego is now directing your tongue and not your brain. Please rethink your hostility.

By Big Fat City Pensions will get my Tax Refund on April 19, 2009 11:18 PM

********************

PS. I like how you changed the subject rather than admit to your fellow bloggers that you never really knew who I was after claiming you knew...lol...

-----------------------------

DS

You know, you don't know when to let it lie. The moderator asked that we move on and I did. You accused me of telling him who you were and he said I didn't. Why would you make such an accusation if I didn't have you nailed? You would have just gone on making me think I was right. I asked for an apology and you haven't. But, I moved on out of respect for the moderator because we are a "guest in his house". You wonder why other bloggers don't like you personally, this last statement is why. You yourself have said, "They simply attacked me for my blogging style." And, you know, you are absolutely correct.

You have said "There may be one blogger who has figured out who I am and spotted me speaking to CM Senger. Thankfully he is not revealing my identity. I do like to remain Anonymous here." And, I respect that and I respect that the moderator asked us to move on and I did. Did you notice that my post getting back on the subject even though after yours was so close in time to the point that your post would not have been on line as of yet but waiting for moderator approval when I made mine?

What in the heck do you want? I've told you why I don't want to reveal your identity to anyone and I haven't. I'm not the one you has thoroughly P.O.'d everyone. You have been careless in your use of the Internet and allowed yourself to be identified. It's not my fault. From there with the wealth of knowledge available on line, I learned your address, phone number, age, how much you paid for your home, your prior addresses, some of your court cases (and why you vehemently backed Councilman Furstenau in his litigation for being charged with the offense of BATTERY TO A POLICE OFFICER), your birth-date, the assessed value of your home [you really need to talk to the assessor's office about your assessment as it appears that you are being assessed way more per square foot than your neighbors--Total Living Area: 1,294/Improvement Assessment for 2008 $62,770, but I am not sure how they treat your finished basement--which may result in your paying too much for property taxes], etc. And, I didn't spend a penny doing so. Think of how much I could find out if I actually spent a few dollars.

Why don't you get back to the subject and stop being such a sucky cow?

----
PS to the Moderator and Fellow Bloggers: Sorry for my indignant rage. Sometimes you have to vent.

Big Fat City Pensions will get my Tax Refund on April 20, 2009 1:33 AM
Now let me ask you why is there a need to point something out to you dozens and dozens of times, John Q. Public, and why you are not listening. Why do you have to be told more than ONCE?

Are you really that DENSE that the Moderator needs to keep repeating himself over and over again to stop discussing the old issues you are putting forth.

Big Fat City Pensions will get my Tax Refund on April 19, 2009 9:25 PM
I never renounced anyone with a different position. No one ever came on here and said they are for higer taxes, government waste or big fat pensions. They simply attacked me for my blogging style...think about that for a second!

-------------------
Big Fat, You draw so much attention to yourself by your combative style along with your use of demeaning words ("DENSE"). I'm not JQP, but am using your response to him to point out that you used multiple handles to bolster your point in the past and were busted by the moderator for it. Now you use "clever, witty" phrases that we obviously all know are you. I for one have debated you on many occasions when you were simply arguing a point - it is when you demean others that I point out your past and we all end up debating you rather than the issue at hand.

As for you not renouncing anyone for a different position? That is your modus operandi. Anyone who disagrees with you is branded as Establishment, Dense, Lacking common sense and many other terms you choose. If you would argue with logic rather than abrasiveness I, and many others, would stop pointing out your blatant contradictions.
I never point out your past if you are simply debating a point... think about that for a second!

If you don't believe me see the following 3 examples from the moderator to you.

Naperville Sun editors on December 31, 2008 10:46 PM
professional reporters all have similar training and write in similar styles. You, on the other hand, have several unique and unusual traits that make you stick out no matter what name you use. I don't know why you go to such elaborate lengths to disguise your ID on this site. You are well informed on local and national issues and can contribute to the discussion, but I don't know why you can't do it under just one name like everyone else, and why you think the deception is necessary. You've shown you're not going to admit it, but it doesn't change the fact that it's true.

Naperville Sun editors on December 31, 2008 1:04 AM
Caroline, I could list about ten unique and unusual writing styles from all of the posts by your many aliases that are the same. You can post under whatever name you want, but if you're going to make multiple posts in support of yourself on the same thread, that's a little shady.

Naperville Sun editors on December 31, 2008 11:00 AM
There's no point in me arguing with you about your identity though because you already know if it's true or not so it's not like I can convince you. If you want more evidence I can get it but I'd think you'd want to drop the subject.

Anonymous One,

Big Fat, You draw so much attention to yourself by your combative style along with your use of demeaning words ("DENSE"). I'm not JQP

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

I called him dense because he implied I was dense for even having to be told about something I did possibly being inappropriate on a site that is as fictional as it is nonfictional. I never had to be told a second time.

He and you have been told several times by the Moderator to lay off of your personal attacks on ME. You refuse to listen. You have been told many many times. One can conclude that you are not only broken records but denser than dense.

I have never attacked any blogger first. Calling a blogger Establishment is not an attack just like calling a Napergatian a blogger is not an attack. Those were once competing political parties in Naperville when the Napergate Man was politcally involved. I am sure he and his followers were proud to be called Napergatians. I am sure many folks in town are proud to be the Establishment or members of the Establishment Party. You may not be aware but City Council Members historically have not run as Democrats or Repulicans for their city council seats.

Bloggers come out of the woodworks to attack me whom most times I have never heard of. I never attack first. They could be fire fighters who want to keep their Big Fat Pensions. They could be police officers who want to keep the 100,000 OT they make at Rib Fest. Margo Ely could be attacking me anonymously because she is mad that I am not happy with the money she spent on the Furstenau Case.

That is why I am attacked. I expose improprieties and inefficiencies in City Hall. There are over 1000 employees who work for the City and most are getting BIG FAT PENSIONS and FAT RAISES.

Most likely they have orchestrated a campaign to discredit me. Here I am getting stronger by the day as they fail in their attempts to discredit me.

And really, Anonymous One and JQP, you should both stop being so DENSE and finally listen to what the Moderator has said repeatedly.

I have listened to his advice and he has allowed me to continue blogging. He has every right to pull the switch on me if he feels I am in violation or being inappropriate. He has not. I suspect he feels I add to the debate.

On the Ribfest Thread many people are now debating points I brought forth. The debate is civil. Please don't go there and ruin it.

Thank you!

BFCP,

I never said your current practice of changing handles was deceptive. I just said it was "annoying and pointless"---which it is. Your old practice of: using the actual names of different people to post many, many times expressing the same viewpoint on the same topic; often using one handle to praise the supposed "logic" of a post made under another handle; claiming different "people" posting in support of the Napergation viewpoint was a validation of that viewpoint; and even resorting with one handle to claiming to be a police officer to bolster your criticism of the way the NPD handled the NGM's arrest in 2006----now THAT was deceptive, and not downright duplicitous. And, while I don't usually pretend to speak for other people, I think I can safely say that your claiming to have done all of this (and more, besides) merely to protect your anonymity rings hollow to just about anyone familiar with those old blogs.

BTW, I am not the person or persons who keep(s) raising this subject. But I am tired of the excuses you offer in defense of your old practices. Just admit that it was wrong, and if people keep ridiculing you for what you did, keep agreeing that it was wrong. Suck it up and take it like a man (or woman), because you really have earned the criticism. It'll probably die down, eventually. For my part, I'll try not to raise the subject, but that doesn't mean I'm never going to comment on it when it becomes relevant. I'm still wondering for, example, if you can identify by handle 10 of the supposedly 150 Napergatians you say you weren't? If you can, and Moderator Chris will be so kind as to verify that their IP addresses were unique, great; if not, then you should stop claiming support you don't/didn't have.

PS. And don't play your dumb semantics game with me. The ONCE was in reference to the number of times it was pointed out to me before I stopped and not in reference to the few times I admitted doing it. You clearly know that is what I meant!

Really? Here's what you said:

Once it was pointed out to me that I made that mistake of once praising one of my own handles, I made sure I never did it again.

The first occurrence of once supports your claim, but the second clearly seems to be a modifier of praising, as in, you only once resorted to the tactic of praising one of your own posts. Maybe you just made a typo, though. If so, then you have my apologies. My confusion is understandable, though, as you often resort to exaggeration.

If you want to continue in this hostile manner, I will make minced meat out of the reputation of your handle. I will destroy your credibility and force you to change your handle.

I'm not too worried about this. I never say anything I know not to be true, and will continue to make every effort not to confuse speculation with fact, so I doubt my credibility will suffer. And unless Moderator Chris lets other people start using my handle, I don't see the point in changing it, as I will be no more or less anonymous---or credible---under a new handle.

I think your ego is now directing your tongue and not your brain. Please rethink your hostility.

Another of your favorite tactics: accusing your critics of having the same flaws that you have in bunches. For the record: I do have an ego. Who doesn't? I do try to keep my ego in check, but am not always successful in my efforts. But you, of all people, should not be accusing other posters of letting their egos get in their way. I can't begin to count the number of posts in which you've sung your own praises. As for my hostility, well, believe it or not, I try to pull my punches, and also try to get the best of my anger before I post. For example, in the last week, or so, I've been called "dense" (more than once) and "stupid", but I have not responded in kind. I've even reviewed this post a few times trying to tone it down.

I don't mean to offend you, but you need a hard dose of reality about how you are perceived here and about your effectiveness or, rather, lack thereof as a blogger. After all, if your goal really is just to get more people on board with you in your fight against high taxes, don't you think it's strange that in a town as Republican as Naperville you've had so few allies on this blog site? Did it ever occur to you that the problem might be the messenger rather than the message? For example (and this is just one example), while I am open to the idea that the starting salary of our public safety officers could be lowered at least somewhat, I am not at all comfortable being on your side when you resort to belittling the danger faced by our policemen and firefighters, as well as the amount of work they do, to justify your argument that their wages should be lowered. You're not going to win many supporters with that tactic. Wouldn't it be better to try and find common cause with people who might be sympathetic with your overall goal of reducing taxes rather than "accusing" practically everyone who disagrees with you of being a policeman, a firefighter, a city employee, or some other member of "the Establishment"? Do you think doing so enhances your own arguments in any way or wins you any supporters?

-JQP

BFCP wrote:

He and you have been told several times by the Moderator to lay off of your personal attacks on ME.

And:

And really, Anonymous One and JQP, you should both stop being so DENSE and finally listen to what the Moderator has said repeatedly.

I can't speak for Anonymous ONE, but none of our moderators have ever personally directed me to lay off anything. You, on the other hand, have been repeatedly disciplined by every moderator on this blog. I also don't believe I've ever personally attacked you; if I have, I apologize. I have attacked your style, tactics and ideas, though, even though I don't always disagree with the latter.

-JQP

JQP,

You implied I am dense for not figuring out what I may have done in the past was wrong. For even needing to be told.

I admitted it was wrong and stopped the behavior after it has been suggested ONCE....the first time. Sorry you misundertood what I was saying or if my English is not perfect. But you knew what I meant and tried to twist my words. I just admitted in the prior sentence that I had done it a few times. Why would I deliberately contradict myself one sentence down. Give me a break and stop attacking me based on semanitics. That just shows how low you and others are willing to stoop in your attacks on ME.

You and your buddies have been advised several times by the Moderator to lay off this topic and focus on the issues...on my MESSAGE.

You all jointly refuse to listen despite repeated calls by the Moderator.

I think this is DENSE and I am calling it as it is. The Moderator has indicated on numerous times he is fed up with this nonsense.

You implied I was DENSE. I am stating you are DENSE because you won't get over an old issue that we buried months ago. Get over it and move forward.

The Moderator exposed me and gave me my public lashing. I accepted it. Now move forward. I got my public lashing and paid my price.

I am not paying any further price for my wrong that I admitted more than once was wrong. I apologized for it.

Now lay off the attacks or I will make minced meat out of you or anyone else who continues to attack me.

Obviously, you are all disturbed by counter-attacks or you would not be writing essays defending yourself. Especially you, John Q. Public as you have been known as a man of a very few words until you decided to participate in these continuing and unwarrated attacks.

I was once treating this blog as part fictional and part non-fictional. Now I am treating it seriously. I expect everyone to treat it seriously and stop the attacks and the nonsense. It is getting very old.

And anyone who believes I start these conversations debating MY prior mistakes has got a hole in his brain. I am sure the Moderator knows clearly by now who starts them. Yes, I escalate them in an attempt to get you guys to back off and deal with my MESSAGE.

BFCP wrote:

I admitted it was wrong and stopped the behavior after it has been suggested ONCE....the first time.

Which behavior are we talking about here: your use of multiple personalities, or your having your multiple personalities praise each other? They are really part and parcel of the same thing. I don't remember Chris telling you even once that it's okay to attempt to be appear to be different people as long as your different personalities didn't praise each other. I do remember Chris telling you several times to stop posting as different people though, and I remember you denying it each time until he finally posted a long list of handles with identical IP addresses. Then you continued to deny it. In fact, I KNOW that's the way it happened because I just reviewed the thread. When did you finally 'fess up and apologize?

Sorry you misundertood what I was saying or if my English is not perfect. But you knew what I meant and tried to twist my words. I just admitted in the prior sentence that I had done it a few times. Why would I deliberately contradict myself one sentence down. Give me a break and stop attacking me based on semanitics. That just shows how low you and others are willing to stoop in your attacks on ME.

Sorry, it was an honest mistake rather than an attempt to slice and dice. On further review, though, I still think you weren't upfront about what happened (see above).

The Moderator exposed me and gave me my public lashing. I accepted it. Now move forward. I got my public lashing and paid my price..

I am not paying any further price for my wrong that I admitted more than once was wrong. I apologized for it.

If you did apologize, I must have missed it. Honestly. I don’t read every topic, much less every post on every topic. Please post a link.

Now lay off the attacks or I will make minced meat out of you or anyone else who continues to attack me.

Believe it or not, your threats have no effect on me.

And anyone who believes I start these conversations debating MY prior mistakes has got a hole in his brain.

Actually, I agree with you here. You are not the one who keeps raising the subject of your past misbavior. You do resort to...how can I put this charitably?...misdirection and obfuscation in your attempts to defend your old shenanigans, though. If you want me to stop "attacking" you, stop trying to "re-interpret" what happened, and stop pretending your motives were well-meaning but misguided. Nobody is buying that. I may be “dense”, but I’m not that dense. You were trying to hijack the blog site and bludgeon people who disagreed with you into either agreeing or becoming scarce.

I’d still like to know who some of the other 150 Napergatian bloggers were....

-JQP

JQP,

You seem like a trouble maker who wants to live in the past. I said I apologized and I did. I just did again. I have no time to move backwards and search old blogs like you guys do. I still work for a living and no one is giving me a BIG FAT PENSION when I retire.

I wrote Moderator Chris a private letter and informed him I will continue to use multiple handles with phrases. I asked him to object if he had any objections. He did not object. Are you going to overrule the decision of the Moderator, Mr. Public?

I enjoy using multiple phrases for my handles. They each send a resounding message as my current phrase is. They open eyes and get people to wonder. They generate debate.

Every phrase will get old and will need to be changed in due time. Because you made a request I consolidated my 2 or 3 existing phrases into one to please YOU. Instead of showing some appreciation you go on the attack like a PIT BULL over my old mistakes. I try to accomodate your wishes and you are acting like a SHARK.

I am not apologizing for using multi-handles. I continue to use them. It is not against Sun Policy. I am only apologizing because I got carried away a few times and praised some of my handles with my own handles. I have praised others and others praised me that were all legitimate. As you admitted there are a lot of people who are upset with higher taxes and govt. waste these days...and not just Republicans. I was just the first to warn this was all going to happen 2 years ago and few were listening.

The names I picked for my old handles were random and meaningless. I was just plugging in names like I plug in phrase handles. I picked girl names equal to guy names to keep bloggers from knowing if I was a girl or guy. I still do believe that I can be identified if I gave too much real information about myself by certain members of the community. We know there are psychos both in our community and on this blog site. Therefore I don't regret the use of multi-handles and not even letting fellow bloggers get to 1st base by narrowing the field to 50% by admitting if I were a male or female.

Every time I defend a certain person I am accused of being that person. It is almost a joke. I was accused of being Dick Fursteanu, Sean Collins, the Pet Store Owner, CEO Pamela Davis, the guy with the Geese in front of his store, a Puppy Mill operater and it just never ends. I do like to stand up for other people's rights. I think this is unselfishness but I guess the bloggers see it as selfishness. It seems like no one cares about anyone but himself these days. Look at Original Joe. All he cares is that he is doing well and everyone who is not doing as well as him, it is their own fault. If they lose their job at age 26 in a bad economy before they have a nest egg accumulated and have to foreclose on their homes OJ believes it is all their fault. I am a little different than OJ and have a little sympathy for my fellow human beings who are less fortunate.

Again, the Moderator has told all you(ALL those who bash me constantly you included JQP) to move forward. He does not want this laundry on his pages. You want to continue to discuss it. I am not interested in discussing what happened 6 months ago. It has been discussed way too much on this blog site.

We have current serious issues facing Napervillians. I am trying to discuss them and when I discuss them, all you gang bashers want to do is bash me. Thanks for admitting the obvious. That you guys start these attacks. Maybe the next time the Moderator issues a warning he can direct it at those who start these attacks now that we made it clear who starts them. The Moderator has been very kind to you folks asking all equally to stop these attacks while in MY HUMBLE OPINION truly knowing who starts them. He has been very gentle on you guys and treated you like gentlemen. You have shown no respect for his desires or wishes. You have disrespected him!

When I question a corrupt system that allows Assistant City Manager to to double dip while working on 2 retirement pensions, you guys have gone ballistic against me instead of my message. If you disagree with me, just say we think the pension system should allow triple pensions. Express you view. Explain to the taxpayers how you plan on paying for triple pensions for city employees with a 100 million dollar pension deficit pending with just single pensions per employee in most cases....many are working or getting double pensions just for the record.

Since you missed my first apology about having a handle pad another handle on the back, consider this another apology so we don't have to waste time tracking it.

Now close the subject and move forward. Don't continue wasting your time on the past and a mistake(s) I made.

I obviously have strong messages that bother very very many people in this town. Every blog I post generates 10 responses it seems. If my messages did not have something behind them, no one would care to respond. No one would go ballistic on ME. Obviously people who are benefitting from a broken and corrupt system are up in arms against ME for daring to tell the truth.

My messages are frightening to the Establishment. You, they and others will continue attacking me as a way of discrediting my message. It won't work. Discredit my message and you will gain credibility. Continue to attack me and you will make a fool of yourself. It is your choice if you want to be a serious blogger or the new RESIDENT CLOWN on this blog site. Right now you are acting like a CLOWN who does not know North from South or East from West.
Try to get a compass that tells you how to move forward and not backward.

________________________________________________________________________________________

PS. I do not use spell check or any kind of editing. What I publish is raw. I am not writing a Letter to the Editor so please don't look for semantic or spelling errors to bash me. I think my English and spelling are both respectable but not perfect.

Big Fat,

What, to you, is the difference between the George Pradel deal and Bob Marshall?

Big Fat City Pensions will get my Tax Refund on April 21, 2009 12:58 AM

Big Fat, I am glad to see you apologize for your previous tactics. I agree with JQP, I don't recall seeing this anywhere in past threads (makes me wonder what name you used for your apology). The moderator said, "You can post under whatever name you want, but if you're going to make multiple posts in support of yourself on the same thread, that's a little shady." That has always been my point, multiple handles on different threads is no big deal, it's when it was on the same thread that I took issue - particularly when you supported your own positions with different names.

You continue to reference those of us who take you to task as somehow living in the past. But in every case where I responded to you about your previous tactics (which was only 3 short months ago) my response was driven by your constant use of the past as a show of support, and strength. Your constant reference to the NGM who took the city to court almost 10 years ago is also living in the past. I promise not to bring up the past if you will do the same? I will make no references to Ameena as long as there are no more references to Mr. Esmail (unless of course the NGM is the actual topic)?

And for the record: I admire the NGM and was around at the time. It cost the city a lot of time and money to fight this guy and his winning was something I was glad to see. Of course the money had to come from somewhere (taxpayers), but I supported Mr. Esmail's right to litigation and faulted the city for poor management.

i used this "deceptive tactic" to remain anonymous. I used female and male names so no one would know if I am a female or male. To this day no one knows if I am a female or male.
********************************************************************

Unfortunately I don't think that you know either.......

Anonymous One,

At least we have one thing in common. We both admire the Napergate Man.

I think my references to the Napergate Man during the Furstenau Case were appropriate. Remember it is the Naper Sun that first drew the comparison with a front page article and not me. They even superimposed Furstenau into a Napergate Ad on the front page. Maybe you missed that edition of the Sun.

I have not brought up the Napergate Man of late as he has not been relevant but everyone else seems to bringing him up right when I stopped. Perfect example is you today.

I also don't see anything wrong with categorizing Napervillians as Establishment or Napergatian. Napergatian is a softer word for anti-Establishment and in my mind they are identical in their meanings based on the history of this town. Just like Democrats attack Republicans there is nothing wrong with the Establishment Party attacking the Napergate Party or vice versa as long as it does not get personal. As long as they are attacking each others platforms and agenda.

Hopefully now can we stop this nonsense and bickering.

We had a nice debate going on about Ribfest when I checked last night. For the most part messages were being attacked instead of messengers with a few exceptions that I ignored.

Why don't you try to blog there about the issues without discussing ME? I think you would find that refreshing.

Give it a shot. It really is not that hard.

Consider this an Olive Branch of Peace.

By Mark F on April 21, 2009 6:17 AM
Big Fat,

What, to you, is the difference between the George Pradel deal and Bob Marshall?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please don't ask questions you know the answers too.

I will only say that I know Mayor George Pradel and he is the greatest Mayor this town has ever had. He is a fair and honest man. He is a very decent and friendly man.

He loves everyone and everyone loves him.

Nobody cares about his politics because his integrity is above reproach. Rare in a politician anywhere in America or even the world.

I never met Mr. Marshall and know almost nothing about the man. He appears to know how to legally exploit a broken system to the maximum.

And of course I know Mayor Pradel is getting a pension but he deserves one since the measly salary he gets can barely pay the real estate tax bill on the average home in Naperville.

I know where your mind is at Mark F., but there is no fairness in attempting to compare the pensions of these 2 individuals.

In blunt terms, I do not consider Mayor Pradel to be double dipping.
The 15k or 20k he is given annualy can barely pay for his traveling expenses to all the events he attends in Naperville. He is also over 70 and deserves his full pension even if he continues to work.

Mr. Marshall is in his 50's and if the system was not broken, it would make him wait till he was 70 to collect his full pension.

I was trying not to answer your question but I ended up answering it. You win this one time.

BFCP,

I believe I have only commented on the subject of your use of multiple handles when it was raised by other posters, and that was either to express my opinion about your current habit of frequently changing handles, or, as in this topic, to correct misinformation in your comments about your old habit of assuming multiple personalities. Actually, this topic is the first time I've commented on your multiple personality past since you were finally exposed last December. And as long as you continue in your posts to downplay your past practices, to pretend that your behavior was limited to a few incidents, that you only needed to be told once to stop, etc., etc., I reserve the right to call B.S. on you. And I'm also going to call B.S. if you continue to claim that there were several hundred unique Napergatian posters---at least until you offer some proof, or some of them (besides Kevin) start posting here again.

I've already expressed my opinion several times about your current handle-switching, so I will try to refrain from doing it in the future (after this post). I will add one more comment on the subject, though. You've said numerous times that your current use of multiple handles is done to keep yourself from becoming the focus of attention. As you can see, this practice is having the opposite effect, and not just because of me.

Every phrase will get old and will need to be changed in due time. Because you made a request I consolidated my 2 or 3 existing phrases into one to please YOU. Instead of showing some appreciation you go on the attack like a PIT BULL over my old mistakes. I try to accommodate your wishes and you are acting like a SHARK.

My request was that you stick to one handle. If you're going to use that one handle from now on whenever you post on any topic, then great. And thank you. If not, well, don't be surprised if others use it as an excuse to bring up your past behavior. But, again, I'll try to avoid commenting on it from now on.

Since you missed my first apology about having a handle pad another handle on the back, consider this another apology so we don't have to waste time tracking it.

Thanks---though what you should have said was something along the lines of, "I am sorry for pretending to be 300 people to try to overwhelm (by force of opinion if not logic) the four or five people who were trying to engage in a sincere debate with me.".

My messages are frightening to the Establishment. You, they and others will continue attacking me as a way of discrediting my message. It won't work. Discredit my message and you will gain credibility.

Actually, I and others have discredited quite a few of your "messages". And while I don't disagree with everything you say, I usually do disagree with the way you say it, which makes it very hard to come down on your side even if I am in agreement. If you'd learn to tone down your style, and not engage in exaggeration, you might be taken more seriously. People might actually stop bringing up your checkered past. Regardless, you're the one that has the credibility problem here, my friend, not I.

-JQP

I was just trying to figure out where your hostility toward the situation originates. Mayor Pradel left the police pension and immediately began building an IMRF pension as a Community Service Officer. So, according to your theory, he was double dipping then. He just happened to get elected and is in that same pension fund at a lesser salary. And you don't begrudge him that because as you indicated, it is measly. HMMM. I admire George and feel he deserves both retirement funds also. Of course, you know my opinion on the Marshall situation. Mr. Marshall is not costing me any more in tax dollars than if they gave the job to you. I just look at his past experience as a bonus to the situation.

So it is not really the principle you object to, it is the deal?

Big Fat City Pensions will get my Tax Refund on April 21, 2009 12:32 PM

_____________

No problem Big Fat. I accept your apology and your olive branch. As long as you don't bring up the past, neither will I.

Thanks for the invite over to the Ribfest blog, but I've been active on it since the first day it was posted, and did have some good conversations with others regarding the posted topic. The topic of that blog is "Ribfest looking for a new home", and the moderator asked: "What do you think of moving the event to Nike Park? Is there a better venue in town?"

Most people began talking about the location and the festival in general, but as is usually the case (12 posts in) some people have turned it into yet another rant against the city, the pensions of NPD and NFD, Overtime pay, and raises for city employees.

It's been harder and harder to find a topic that doesn't quickly degenerate when someone (I wonder who?) hijacks it. Oh well, Big Fat, we'll see how it goes.

Anonymous One,

Hijacking threads? Usually if I am not involved in stimulating a thread about city issues, it dies 3 days later. The number of posts becomes a constant on the heading. Do some reviews.

I don't hijack. I stimulate the discussion. I help keep it going. I get people to dig deeper. I motivate people. I get bloggers to think out of the box. Many posters not just me want the Ribfest closed....not just relocated. I think this is very relevant to the headline and if it was not the Moderator may have given a holler or two. He has proved not to be shy if we deviate too much. On the other hand his allowance for deviation probably made his blog site number one in Chicagoland for newspapers. For sure in the Chicago Sun Times group which is quite large.

I think the debate on the Ribfest has been very healthy. Many others besides me such as Anonymous, Ribfest Dollars and even Experienced are suddenly doing forensic accounting and digging deeper into the Pigfest. I am tickled to death that I am no longer the lone Watch Dog in town.

I am so happy that others are finally doing what I have been doing. Half the bloggers are questioning the Ribfest and its finances. Some like myself are calling for an audit or investigation.

How could you say I am hijacking the thread? What a silly accusation? It seems like you are disturbed that I can expose improprieties at City Hall and gradually build an audience who believes in what I am saying. It seems like half the bloggers now are attacking City Hall for high taxation and government waste. They are coming out of the woodwork. Maybe some people have to feel the pain to come out. Apparently the pain that I warned about over 2 years ago is now finally being felt. I am so glad I am not alone. I am so glad I am part of a larger group. How could you say I am HIJACKING a thread?

Honestly, Anonymous One, that is NONSENSE.

And this is what I get for apologizing and extending you an OLIVE BRANCH. An accusation that I am single handedly hijacking a thread that appears to have dozens and dozens of bloggers in a rather civil debate. Yes, there are still a few there still trying to bash me but the fact so many bloggers are ignoring them and responding to my comments positively is very gratifying. One new blogger even applauded me from my relentlessness. A message can speak much louder than the messenger I guess.

That really is one reason I changed my handles in the past and continue to do so. I wanted to be unknown as long as possible so my message could resonate before the attacks start all over again. The frequency of future attacks will to a great extent determine the frequency I change my handles. I can disguise myself for a few days if I don't use some choice phrases. Even a fellow Napergatian did not even know I was the Vegifest.

I thought we were going to stop the attacks. Accusing me of HIJACKING a thread is tantamount to a personal attack. However, I am going to honor my declared PEACE TREATY and not retaliate. As I said this dickering between us has to end. The Olive Branch remains extended for you to accept.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

PS. Even when I am attempting to be a single handled blogger per thread based on your recommendations(you, JQP and others) you guys never fail to bash me for whatever. You sure it is not my MESSAGE that is so BOTHERSOME.

By John Q. Public on April 21, 2009 3:04 PM
BFCP,

I believe I have only commented on the subject of your use of multiple handles when it was raised by other posters.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

1.Yes, that is true. I think criticised is a better word than commented. But in essence you joined the gang bashers after the Moderator recommended we all lay it to rest.

2.Moderator Chris controls all the buttons. If he does not want me using different handles, he does not even have to ask me. He simply does not have to post. Since he is allowing me to post, it appears it does not bother him nearly as much as the posters who oppose my views.

3. Where have you "continued" to see me claim that their are several hundred unique Napergatian users. I have avoided the subject since Decemeber or whatever time that was. The Moderator proved I used 40-50 handles. I believe he was right and I accepted his analysis. There have always been many other bloggers who supported my views that were both Napergatians and non-Napergatian. Looking at the latest Ribfest Thread and see how many people believe in what I am saying. I was going to blog under Vegifest on that thread but changed back to BigFat to make you happy. Changing my hanlde was not for deceptive practices but to throw some of you guys off for a few hours or days to get my message across without so many attacks. Notice the minute I took your advice, I got attacked again by quite a few bloggers. So that is why I change handles. For a little peace and tranquility. Even in the old days, I sometimes would keep the same handle for 10 days and only use that one handle for the whole time. I would get praise like I still do, but it was not me prasing myself even though you think so. That was never my stratgy. My strategy has always been to have a factual message that resonates with bloggers.

That is why my blogs get the most response no matter what handle I use and whether I am identified or not identified. No one is going to go after a clown on this blog site, the way bloggers have gone after me. Clowns are ignored as irrelevant. They may go after a clown for an hour or a day. They are not taken seriously. I am taken seriously and seem to get under the skin of almost everyone who disagrees with me. I have been attacked for over 2 years almost non-stop. The real reason is my message and not my personality. In politics, it is very well known if you can't fight a message, dig mud on the messenger. I thank God everyday that I have managed to remain Anonymous despite over 2000 posts. Remaining anonymous carries more weight for me than most because my true message serioulsy angers those who are benefitting inappropriately at taxpayer expense. Does anyone believe a Naperville Police Officer would ever extend me professional courtesy if I was ever revealed? You all saw how the Napergate Man was treated over the most petty of petty violations.....jailed for the night. No thanks, I do not ever want to be as brave and bold as the Napergate Man and suffer the consequences. I really like and appreciate that anonymity Moderator Chris extends us.

4. I will repeat my main reason for using multi handles and pretend I was different people including guys and gals was to increase my chances of anonymity. When you play characters as I did, you can forget yourself at times, and pad yourself on the back. That happened a few times and I apologized for it.

5. I enjoyed being a single handle at times and taking on 5 or 10 other bloggers for a week or two single handedly. Honestly, I had fun doing that and showing them a message is stronger than any number of bloggers. I am enjoying being BigFat for now and I am going to try to be BigFat as long as possible. It should be obvious to you by now that I don't need the use of multi-handles to get my message across. I just need to do my research, get my facts straight and present them. That is the only thing that works. Handles one or many can not make a message credible. If it is not credible a blogger will blow it out of the water in a split second.

6."You've said numerous times that your current use of multiple handles is done to keep yourself from becoming the focus of attention. As you can see, this practice is having the opposite effect, and not just because of me, says JQP."

Your first sentence is true. At least in the past I got a few days of reprieve when I first changed handles. I was not so easily detectable until the Moderator spilled the beans. I had a lot of relaxing moments where my message was the issue and not ME. No one was really sure but only speculating. Some girl claimed that she had me figured out and guessed I was a blogger who I was not. She was sure she could tell from my handwriting. She could not. Her guess was wrong. She has been gone for a while.

I disagree with your second sentence. I was not being attacked when I was Vegifest. When I took your advice and went to BigFat the attacks started immediately. You have to understand I enjoy the moments when I can get my message across without being an issue.
If I wanted to be a differnt handle and not be detected for a week I could do that easily. Just as you know which of my phrases and sentences give me away, I also know which of my phrases and sentences give me away. All I have to do is not use them and I am not detected by anyone other than the Moderator. I have successfully blogged on threads without a single soul knowing in the last 4 months. It was fun. I also was attacked on the Bill Ayers thread or whatever his name was even though I never blogged there. So most bloggers can not pick me out as easily as they think. Only if I use my choice phrases am I picked out. And sometimes I have to use them and don't care if I am picked up or not because it is about the MESSAGE. But there are some guys and/or gals on the Ribfest that are doing a great job in forensic accounting and pretty soon most people won't know who I am again. I will have the precious peace of being ANONYMOUS again.

H@ll, I may be able to retire soon like the Napergate Man and live in Arizona, if I can get a few dozen people playing the WatchDog role that I have been playing for 2 years. I would honestly like to pass the baton soon. I may have a year or two left in me. That is it. I don't know how the Napergate Man lasted 12 years. This honestly is not easy work when you have people gang up on you because you are trying to lower taxes and reduce government waste. While I have no proof, I do believe much of the hostility comes from City Hall which has the most to lose if my proposals ever become mainstream. Such as police and fire fighters can retire after 30 years but must wait to get their full pensions till age 70 just like the civilian population and social security. They are well qualifed to find jobs at age 52 and are in demand with their unique and valuable experiences as fire fighters and police officers. What say you, JQP?

7. My request was that you stick to one handle, says JQP.

That sounds arrogant. How about my "suggestion" is you stick to one handle. I am going to try to stick to one handle per thread but as a rule of thumb I will be changing my handle from thread to thread. I am sorry but I get bored of my handles and I also use my handles to promote my causes and not my person. I think many bloggers get a little rise and high from their handles. I believe you do and you admitted have some kind of ego if my memory serves me right. I really don't have any kind of ego as regards to this blog site. I am really into the JUST CAUSE I believe in. I think that is what truly makes me a very unique blogger. I think that is why I draw the most attention of any blogger when I am trying to avoid the attention. It is because the CAUSE is JUST. Really it is that simple. You have to have a PURPOSE in what you are doing that is more important than your handle and ego.

8. You and many others feel I committed a major crime because I used multi handles in the past. I did not committ a crime and did not even violate Sun Policy. We all agree it is not the highest ethical standard to allow one of your handles to pat another on the back. That mistake I made more than once and apologized more than once for. That is my only fault. My attack on bloggers was simply a retaliation. I have a right to retaliate and did. I admitted I disproportionately escalated the counter attacks in an attempt to stop them. There was a deterence message. Attack me and you will regret it. I suspect many people regret attacking me as I know I hurt their feelings. I know I hurt your feelings, JQP, and please don't deny that. Your reputation was impeccable before I bulldozed it to smithereens. Yes, I can be a little cocky and arrogant if you attack me first or join a gang of bashers.

9. I can honestly never remember attacking a blogger first....ever!
I have always had powerful messages and my messages resulted in attacks on me. Even before I changed my handle the first time, I recall being attacked viciously for daring to question city improprieties and inefficiencies. So if you study the root of this problem it is my powerful exposure of what hides behind the walls of City Hall.

10. I guess you are not satisfied with the wording of my apology and now want to word it for me JQP. Are you kidding me! What happened to you in recent days? I honestly always admired you and you were my FAVORITE BLOGGER. I always considered you level headed. When you join a gang of bashers, you lose your dignity. It is the same concept as joining a gang of bangers. Why do you want to lose your dignity, credibility and good reputation. You suddently want me to apologize for being 300 bloggers before Dec. I was absolutely not that many. Now you are simply exaggerating and losing more and more credibilty. The Moderator told you I was 40 or 50. I never kept track. His number sounds about right. He was able to do an IP study and nail it very quickly. I know it is hard for you to believe but I am not the only one with my views. Many bloggers supported my views who were Napergatians and not Napergatians. They used names and phrases.

This may suprise you, JQP, but I have never went backwards and read an old blog I wrote. I am always moving forward. Maybe that is why I can write so much while you guys are researching old archives about subjects we beat to death. You guys love beating a dead horse. Do you think a dead horse will rise from death if you continue to beat him up? He is DEAD FOREVER. Last time I checked horses don't have their Jesus Christ.

11. "Actually, I and others have discredited quite a few of your "messages," says JQP.

Since you like going backwards and digging into the archives please list all my "quite a few" messages you and others discredited. And please we are not talking about handle and related use issues. We are talking about MESSAGES. I can't recall being discredited but it is possible. And if you succeed in showing me a few out of over 2000 posts where I may have been wrong, I beleive my record would still be pretty good.

I check my facts and do research before I post. I read the entire 58 page Fed and State reports on the Ribfest before writing about them. I study before I write. I can make a mistake. But you will never catch me deliberately misrepresenting a "MESSAGE."

And sorry I don't have to exaggerate. I use exact numbers like 61.5 million pension deficits obtained directly from CM Bob. I stated the Ribfest is utilizing 100k of our tax money and TB comes on and provides evidence it was 170k. I stated the Napergate Man won his case 3-0 in the Illinios Appellant Court. Again, TB provides evidence that the Napergate Man also won his Civil Rights Case in the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals by a 2-1 verdict and posts a link to the verdict that I had never seen before. Where is the exaggeration? On Ribfest, Experienced dug up that the Pigfest has accumulated 1.4 million in cash reserves. Something above and beyond what I had disclosed in RED FLAG items. So I don't believe I exaggerate. Obviously, I miss very important information that others are beginning to help me out with. It seems like when people help me dig, the situation is usually much worse than I initially describe. I think many of us realize it is going to take a team to duplicate the efforts of the Napergate Man as far as his Watch Dog duties against City Hall and other entities. As a team I know we can match his accomplishments. As individuals, I know none of us have the slightest of chances. I learned that blogging here.

I think you need to relax, Mr. John Q. Public. I wrote this long letter to you because you were my favorite blogger until you let loose recently. I considered you the wise man on this blog site. Your handle was my favorite hands down. You then joined the gang and attacked me and I let you have it. Apparently your skin is very thin. You apparently are very upset. As I said you were noted for your one line posts and suddenly you are writing essays like me.

12. You made the bad decision to jump in this nasty Ultimate Fighting Ring. Obviously, I am use to being in it. You are not. I can handle it. I can take a 1000 punches and have taken a 1000 punches. Here I am still standing and stronger than ever and not even rattled. Here you are taking one punch and you are all rattled up like it is the end of the world.

Remember the cause is more powerful than any human being. North Carolina and Michigan State had causes they believed in dearly. The cause was more important than the individual players. That is why they ended up in the Championship Game. North Carolina won as they had the better cause. They took their beating last year. Michigan State took a beating this year. Sport Illustrated is ranking MSU first in the nation for next year. They will focus better on their cause next year as North Caroline did this year.

You don't have a cause or purpose on this blog site yet, John Q. Public. Joining a gang that attacks bloggers is not a cause. It is immature and silly. It is not you. I believe you are a decent and honorable person who was led astray in only the last week or two by the gang of bashers. You made a big mistake when you lost your independence and joined this gang. You lost all the credibility that you built since you joined this blog site. All lost with one bad move. You are all upset and twisted now. You are unhappy. You are bothered. I understand. Seriously. I am being genuine.

I felt a lot better when I admitted to my mistakes and finally apologized. You really need to rethink your late postions.

I really think you owe me an apology for your recent attacks on me. You know I did not attack you. You admit you joined others who were attacking me but did not personally start the attacks. That is true. But why would you join this gang. What did I ever do to you? Nothing! (Please note Moderator how even the JQPs are now admitting I did not start the personal attacks. They just simply joined the gangs that were already in the process of attacking me....lol...)

Your attack on me was unprovoked.

The Moderator did a great job of exposing me and suggesting new guidelines. That is why we have a Moderator. I have listened to most of his recommendations. I sent him a private message asking him if I could use mult-handles. He did not object.

This is his blog site. I am following his rules. If you look at your last letter you got carried away and are making demands on me as to what behavior of mine you would find acceptable and would like me to practice on this blog site. You are requesting I do certain things and behave in certain ways. Speaking of arrogance and crossing all lines of decency, you need to look in the mirror, John Q. Public.

Finally, the Moderator suggested we end this nonsense. I agree it should be ended once and for all. Immediately! Your last post indicates you want to continue. Why? Don't you have anything better to do with your life and time. Don't you have an important cause that you believe in? That is what drives me. What drives you?

I suspect your handle got the better of you. You fell for the highs and rises these handles create for most bloggers. You fell in love with your handle. When I attacked your handle, you felt I attacked YOU. You took it personal. I was always hoping your handle would not get the better part of you....apparently it finally did!

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PS. You just got the longest letter I ever wrote. I hope I answered all your questions in detail. I hope we can have unconditional peace.

Since you missed my apology, here it is again for the umpteenth time in the last week. Also I am extending you an Olive Branch as I did to Anonymous One. I hope you accept it. As soon as Anonymous One stated he accepted my apology and Olive Branch, he immediately went on the attack and accused me of hijacking the Pigfest Thread. Unbelievable if you ask me! I trust and hope you can do a little better with the Olive Branch I am extending to you. Thank you!

And have a very nice day today. Hostility will not get us anywhere.

BFPC wrote:

I know I hurt your feelings, JQP, and please don't deny that. Your reputation was impeccable before I bulldozed it to smithereens.

You did not hurt my feelings---perhaps because I missed the part where you destroyed my reputation.

I will not bother responding to anything else in your post because it really is pointless arguing with you. This is a point on which I suspect we can both agree, even if our reasons for thinking this way are as opposite as they could possibly be.

-JQP

JQP,

I am glad you finally agree this debate is pointless and arguing with me is even more pointless.

Let us move forward and try to jointly tackle issues like higher taxes, fat pensions, and government waste.

These are issues that affect all Napervillians....not just you and me.

If we can control taxes and keep a few more families out of foreclosure, we can all sleep better at night....except for Original Joe who believes everything is your own fault.

Your short post indicates the Original John Q. Public may be back.

From here forth hopefully you will be known as OJQP.

I am sorry to see you did not accept my peace offer, my apology or Olive Branch. But no one can say I did not try.

Big Fat City Pensions will get my Tax Refund on April 22, 2009 5:53 AM

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Wow, snippy! Re-read my posting Big Fat, I never accused you of hijacking a thread. I said that "some people", and "someone" seems to do this and I wondered who it was. For you to assume I meant you is very telling. My reference to the 12th post into the Ribfest topic was about some person named (Ribfest needs to be Ended.....Bring on Vegifest). I see from your comments to JQP that you admitted this was you, but honestly Big Fat you were much too clever for me to figure it out. At the time I thought it was just another anonymous blogger!

you are receiving a lot of response on the Ribfest thread, but I assure you none of the responses have come from me. There seem to be others who respond to you and disagree with your message, or at least the method you use to deliver it. My theory as to why you receive a lot of response is probably due to the fact you have posted at least 20 times on that thread (out of 96 postings as of now). I'm not suggesting you are hijacking this one, but when someone makes up over 20% of the postings on a topic that is very "smothering" to others wishing to participate.

I've accepted your olive branch, lets move on.

Anonymous One,

If I post on a subject and people want to debate me, I respond. They respond again. It is easy to have 20 posts when people want to debate you. I am surprised you waste your time counting, tracking and monitoring. And judging people. Stop being so judgmental and post about all these interesting topics on the Main Page. Let the Moderator worry about his domain. If he thinks I am blogging too much or being counter productive, trust me he will tell me and it will be publicly. He is the only one I am listening to these days so I don't see why you are now stalking me.

I am honored when people want to discuss issues with me whether it is in the positive or negative. I just don't like personal attacks.

I do blog a lot on City Issues. I have only blogged twice on 100 school threads the last 2 years. So sometimes things balance out. I like to get deep into an issue. I am not a shallow person.

On the last Main Page I did not even peek at the District 204 Candidate Thread, Open Forum or William Ayer Threads. They had over 600 posts. None were mine. So you see things balance out. Most bloggers like to blog a little here and there. I like to focus where I have expertise or can make a difference.

I like to focus on a subject and rip it apart. I am a deep person who likes detail. Everyone is different. Try to accept me for my differences.

Now that I agreed to use one handle, I really don't want to hear complaints from anyone that I am blogging a lot or hijacking threads. The only person I will listen to is the Moderator.

He seems to accept that people are different. Why can't you folks accept that people are different and have different styles and methods of blogging???

Accepting my Olive Branch in words is meaningless. I need to see deeds to see your sincerity.

I apologized and I said I would never allow my handle pad another of my handles. I never did it again. My apology carries weight. That is what I mean by deeds instead of hollow words which are meaningless.

Big Fat City Pensions will get my Tax Refund on April 22, 2009 3:04 PM
Accepting my Olive Branch in words is meaningless. I need to see deeds to see your sincerity

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Back at ya Big Fat. We'll see how well you keep up your end of the bargain.

Why has the new SB member Dawn Desart not called for Mark Metzger's resignation - she did say "I think he should resign" while campaigning.

Why has new SB member Dawn Desart not called for sibling's waiver (allowing siblings attending the same HS today, but targeted for splitting to 2 HS in 2009) - she did support the idea while campaigning...so why the silence on the issue?

Why has the SB not called for Metzger's resignation - all but 3 said as much that he should go? Given recent revelations by another district's actions using the same strong legal footing advised by our own legal team, and the fact that the Senger legislation did not pass partly because lawmakers already thought the ability to act was already there in existing laws, then does this not make MM and Dash look bad for not acting?

Why has the SB not acted on their own changes approved 5/5/09? The student charged with felonies is still attending the same school as the victim he attacked off campus and on campus!