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Experienced,
I will ignore your comment so we stay out of the mud.

We need to remain focused. I did not mean to anger you so much because you continued forgeting to insert your moniker. I apologize if I angered you. I was just trying to throw a hint at you that we can all be forgetful and being forgetful is not a crime...it is human to forget. And wen you are extremely forgetful it also is not a crime...it is a disease called Alzheimers.


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Moderator, I totally understand what you are saying.

I will try to control myself and not use the p and b words.

Peanut Brain:

Chastised twice in one week! As they say, doo doo happens.

Mark F.,

I thought my answer did not deserve a response.

I agree officers can not work into their 70s.

But if they remain in good shape, they can work into their late 50s or early 60s easily.

I know a Winfield Cop who works out at Life Time Fitness. He is about 58. Not only is he a big fella but all muscle. Very excellent shape. I believe he is stronger than 99.99% of the population of all ages. And he is extremely well tempered, a real gentleman, and would never abuse his strength. He is not retired yet because he started in his late 20s and may have a year or two till retirement age.

He loves his job and is very capable. But when I asked him if he was retiring at the 30 year point he looked at me funny. As if to say, do you think I am stupid and will work if someone is giving me 75% of my highest and final pay while I can have all the freedom in the world to do as I please. Of course he said he is retiring as soon as he qualfies for full pension. Same as the Lisle Woodridge FF who retired at 48 and got his full pension. I guess in the old days you could be a fire fighter in L-W at age 18. Requirements are tougher now and you need to be 22 and a college graduate.

Maybe cops should be forced to work out at the gym for an hour a day. If they know they would lose their job for being out of shape, they would step it up and work-out in the gym.

You will never see a blog from me between 950pm and 11:10 pm as I am always working out at that hour Monday thru Friday. I have a different schedule on weekends and in the summer since I substitute outdoor swimming for the health club whenever the weather permits. The weather has not been very friendly since the pools opened up this year.

Did you ever see a marine out of shape, Mark F.? I have not. Why do we let our NPD members get out of shape. Many are very overweight and breathe heavily when talking to you let alone when chasing an 18 year older. Sometimes they have a heart attack while running. Why does not Chief David Dial care about his cops? Has he lost interest in his troops and simply awaiting his Big Fat Pension. Maybe we should retire him a few years early and give him his BFP and see if we can hire a new Chief that cares about the fitness and mental well being of his police officers. You can not be mentally healthy if you are not physically healthy. I am sure of that.

Why does the police dept. not continue their fitness guidelines? They have them when they initially employ a police officer. And they pretty much tell police, you can get as fat as you want, as out of shape as you want, and if you can hang in till 52, we will give you a Big Fat Pension and you then can be even fatter and rocking in your rocking chair with a Cuban Cigar in your mouth. All that we ask is that you be able to stand for a few minutes when responding to a call. After that get back in your cruiser and recline while you drive. But please hold off on that Cuban Cigar until you retire.

Are we doing our police a favor by spoiling them in this manner? Why don't we give them tough love and demand they get in shape and be in shape so they can work till age 60. Are you telling me a police officer that works about 40 hours a week can not find an hour a day to work out? The health clubs are full of people who not only work 40 hours a week but sometimes have 3 jobs that are needed to make ends meet. Sometimes you need your 3rd job to pay your 12,000 health insurance. I am sure the city pays full health or close to that for our police officers and fire fighters.

I am around 60ish and I sprint 200 meters at the health club every day and I love the feeling of that sprint. I doubt I am running a 9.7 second 100 meter but I am pretty sure I am around 12.7 give or take a second. What a great feeling you feel after a 200 meter sprint. I have been doing it for about 20 years straight. I can beat half the twenty something year olders in a 100 meter or 200 meter sprint. And I am 3 times as old. And I am sure Captain Robert Marshall can whip their a$$es in a sprint or a marathon. I am basically not buying your bullsh$t about this age. 52 is not 82 or 92 when nature may have more to say than you have to say about gravity and your body. At 52 you have more to say about your physical well being than you can even imagine.

And while I have never ran or practiced for a marathon I believe Captain Robert Marshall is almost 60 and runs a marathon effortlessly.

We get older and out of shape at 50 because we allow ourselves to get older and be out of shape. Anyone without a disability or illness can be in excellent shape at age 55-60 and continue working an extra 8 years and reduce the pension burden on the taxpayers.

And for those who are hopelessly out of shape, we can give them priority at getting not only police desk jobs but also city desk jobs. On one condition. Delay your pension till Social Security criteria ages.

Captain Marshall proved police are intelligent and qualitfied. He rose to pro tem City Manager. And he is an example of a person givin a City Job he was qualifed for and yet what pi$$es me off is the corrupt system ENTITLED him to a BIG FAT PENSION!

What don't you really get, Mark F.? You are ignoring everthing I say!

The system can make it manadatory you retire age 52 if you are out of shape or you can pass a fitness test and continue working till age 60. While a 60 year old cop may not be as strong as a 22 year old marine, he does have a gun, he does have a stun gun, he does have a retractable baton, he does wear a bullet proof vest and he does carry mace. This is a major equalizer to take on those who are a bit stronger. Also he has back up on the way. And he can hold off for 15 seconds taking on a rare monster until back up arrives except in some very rare cases. But he can pull his gun out in those rare cases and demand the suspect raises his arms high in the air and in clear view. Only a dummy would not listen and risk his life.

I think you are making excuses for cops, Mark F. instead of finding solutions.

Why should we allow Big Fat Out of Shape Police Officers be on our force at age 30. That is ridiculous. We should tell them to shape up and ship out. Why do we allow them to hang out at Dunkin Donuts eating those awful donuts? Don't they have any discipline. If not, let the City Council pass a Disciple Resolution and instill some discipline in our police officers and if necessary even our fire fighters who appear in much better shape from the little I have seen of them.

Taxes -

And it is Walter Reed, not Edward Reese, Little Miss Patriotic. And the phrase is COME ON, not COMMON. Maybe you can slip in an ESL refresher while we all get a two week break from you later this summer.

Here is your logic, the bullets missed so there is no real risk- brilliant. Why don't you call Dick and ask how many have been pensioned off for on duty injuries, if you read the sun there was one sometime within the last year. I think he was hit by a truck. Call his family and ask them about the risks.

We get that you think the cops make too much money and retire too early. Are you so impossibly tunnel visioned that you cannot see the big picture? In any business, you should be paying just what the market can bear. I seem to recall that others refute the fact that Naperville police and fire are the highest paid in the area. If they are, then they should not be. But I want you to address what you will do with the aging officers who can't or won't leave due to the lack of pension. Do we the taxpayers just create some inside positions so they can sit at a desk and type at a computer all day? Sure, they can continue well into their 70's if those are the expectations.

Israeli woman mistakenly junks $1 million mattress

A stash of cash landed in the trash … By IAN DEITCH, Associated Press Writer.

An Israeli woman mistakenly threw out a mattress she said had almost $1 million inside, setting off a frantic search through tons of garbage at a number of landfill sites on Wednesday.

The woman told The Associated Press that she bought her elderly mother a new mattress as a surprise present on Monday — and threw out the old one.

The next day, she said, she remembered that she had hidden her life savings inside the old mattress. "I woke up in the morning screaming, when it hit me what happened," said the Tel Aviv woman, who asked not to be identified.

She went to look for the mattress, but it had already been hauled away by garbage collectors, she said. Searches at three different landfill sites turned up nothing.

She said the money was in U.S. dollars and Israeli shekels. She refused to say how she acquired such a large sum. "It was all my money in the world," she said. There was no way to verify her claims, and she refused to disclose key details.

Israeli police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said he was not familiar with the case and no report had been filed.

The Israeli daily Yediot Ahronot published a picture of the woman searching through garbage at a dump in southern Israel. The picture shows the woman, dressed in a white top and black pants with her back to the camera, picking through a huge pile of trash that fills the frame about 10 feet in all directions.

Yitzhak Borba, the dump manager, told Army Radio that his staff was helping the woman, saying she appeared "totally desperate." He said the mattress was hard to find among the 2,500 tons of garbage that arrives at the site every day.

He said the increased security at the site to keep would-be treasure hunters away.

The woman said the money had been stashed in a mattress because she had had "traumatic experiences with banks" in the past. She would not elaborate.

Mark F,
It is very hard to face hard facts and the truth.

How insulting that you would indirectly dare compare the risk that our military takes on to that of a Naperville Police Officer or Naperville Fire Fighter?

I am glad to hear you are not a PO or FF in this town. I doubt any PO or FF would not admit that those brave U.S Servicemen in Iraq and Afghanistan are truly taking risk to life and limb.

Visit Edward Reese Hospital in Washington D.C. and see the thousands that pass through annually without legs, arms, eyes, and only God knows what else is missing.

Not one police officer in 178 years of Naperville's long history ever lost a leg or an arm while on duty.

You can not compare pension benefits for one to the other.

Who in the military starts off at a salary of 59,750 like our Naperville POs and FFs? No one! They deserve a pension to compensate them for their low pay and massive risk they take everyday to preserve our liberty and freedom.

My answer did not deserve a response from your likes. Thank you for not responding. I gave facts. All you would be able to do is feed us propaganda. No one wants to hear your propaganda.

What a great move to keep your lips sealed...please continue keeping them sealed when you have nothing to say.

That answer does not deserve a response.

Mark F.

You ignored all my suggestions about pension pay-outs.

The military is a different story.

They are underpaid and deserve their pensions...and much more

They truly take risk to their lives.

Only one police officer was ever shot at in the history of Naperville. The shot missed.

The risk is minimal being a police officer in Naperville.

Only one police officer was ever killed in the 178 year history of Naperville. The police chief in 1929. He went on a high speed chase against an armed robber using a motorcycle. I believe he made an error in judgment that unfortunately cost him his life.

Nowadays police officers are asked to back down if the police chase reaches high speeds. I think they learned from their mistakes.

Hopefully police will always be safer in the future.

By Taxes, Taxes and more Taxes on June 10, 2009 1:33 AM

Anyone who does not see this huge unfaireness and inequity in my opinion is someone benefitting from this corrupt pension system.

Do you mind disclosing what departemnt in the city you work for, Mark F?
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Taxes,

I do not understand your ignorance when it comes to people who challenge your viewpoint. So now I work for the city too???!!! Just as you have once again called Experienced a liar on another thread, although he has repeatedly told you that he is a forensic auditor??? You are unbelievable. I am in Telecom so get over yourself!

Frankly, you had better throw the military onto your hate list because they have a pretty sweet retirement deal too and your income taxes are paying for that. Some can now collect more than their final salary.

I understand your desire for pension reform but the whole military service, para-military service is more complicated than you make it out to be. You either keep people beyond their serviceable years or you pension them out. Would you say "we're done with you, thanks for 25 years of dedicated service, now go find something else to do."? Without the pension, they will stay on the job. So do we then create a plethora of desk jockeys increasing salary and benefit costs beyond the reach of taxpayers?

Whatever your solution, go ahead and share it with the US Military so we can really save some money.

By Mark F (not Mark) on June 9, 2009 10:40 PM
Hey Taxes-
After reading the article about the 51 year old Joliet officer beaten by the 20 something Naperville man- this is exactly why there are age restrictions on hiring, earlier retirements and why I don't want some 70 year old guy patrolling my neighborhood. Hope the officer recovers quickly.

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Mark F.

I read the story and I was also shocked. I guess the police officer let his guard down for a second. In Naperville 2 police officers usually show up for any incident to avoid this kind of tragedy.

I also hope the officer recovers.

I never said I want officers working till age 70. I want them to receive their full benefits at age 70.

When they retire at age 52, I want them to be productive members of society and get jobs in the private sector.

I don't mind if they get half their pension at age 62, two thirds at 66, or a full pension at age 70 if they are willing to delay receiving their pension till that age. This will improve the pension system substantially if POs and FFs obtain jobs in the private sector after retirement from their respective lines of work instead of collecting Big Fat Pension at that ripe old age of 52 and smoking Cuban Cigars in a rocking chair.

But I can not be thrilled with a police officer retiring, collecting a pension of nearly 100k while having the ability to run marathons, getting another job with the city which is financing his 1st pension and allowing him to build another pension in 8 short years. And then retire with a double pension at age 60 while the rest of us have to wait till age 62 to obtain a half pension or 70 to obtain a full pension if you want to call Social Security a pension system or the civilian equivalent of a pension system. And this SS money is only a fraction of pension pay-outs. As low as a fourth or fifth in some cases.....

Anyone who does not see this huge unfaireness and inequity in my opinion is someone benefitting from this corrupt pension system.

Do you mind disclosing what departemnt in the city you work for, Mark F?

By Anonymous on June 4, 2009 9:39 AM

You told us in another blog that your property taxes are well over $60k. HELLO, which public employee can afford to live in a McMANSION? I don't feel bad for you at all, you chose to live in a gigantic house with gigantic taxes. You are trying to nickel and dime the public servants of this community because you CHOSE to take it up the wazzzoooooooo,lol. I live in a $100,000 condo, my taxes were only $1100. I'm not taking anything up the wazzooooooo, I know my limits. I live within my means.

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Hey Buddy,

I never said my home real estate taxes are 60k. I said my combined real estate tax for my home and/or business and/or apartment building and/or industrial and/or commercial property is 60k. And that is what it is as I paid 30k in taxes on June 1, 2009. I am being vague because I don't wish to be identified.

I bought a home near the downtown but not in the downtown for a few hundred thousand dollars and it did appreciate to over a million during the bubble. It has depreciated to much less than a million after the bubble. I consider myself an average Napervillan. When I bought my house over 30 years ago it was a little abover average. Naperville was much smaller and everything was near the downtown.

Despite the decline of value on my home, my DuPage taxes increased about 7-8% with City of Naperville increasing over 11% and its pensions about 10.5%. Obviously, other taxing authorities did much better than Naperville and brought my average rate down significantly.

I am a landlord of property and I have tenants that feel the pain of these high taxes. They complain to me. I understand their complaints and I feel a need to battle for them and for my neighbors and for myself in the process

My mortgage on my a little above average home is completely paid for after 30 years. My taxes in my opinion are way too high. But I can afford them as I have always lived way below my means all my life.

It is unselfish to fight for the rights of others. Sometimes I feel I am doing it for others. Sometimes I feel like I am also fighting for myself. Maybe I am fighting for a combination.

I again will emphasize that I live way below my means. Now the City of Naperville also needs to try to live below its means.

Who had an 11.5 million budget deficit last year?

Who has a 61.4 million pension liability deficit?

Me or the City of Naperville?

If you live in a 100,000 condo and you taxes are only 1100, you are being billed 900 less than you should be billed.

If I were you I would keep your mouth shut before someone detects you and lets you have it up the wazooooo for 900 more dollars.

When your condo gets assessed again, and if it is truly valued at 100,000 your taxes will be roughly 2000 dollars. Most people in Naperville pay 2% of the true value of their home in taxes.

Either you are very lucky or you are lying to us about your taxes. Which is it, buddy?

Either way, I would advise you to keep your lips sealed tight and not babble.

I am sure you heard the saying, "Loose lips sink ships."


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PS. The Moderator may know more about condo taxes than I do. I would find it hard to believe that condos are charged at 1.1% of value while the rest of the real estate in town is charged 2% of value. Maybe the Moderator can shed some light on this situation.

Hey Taxes-
After reading the article about the 51 year old Joliet officer beaten by the 20 something Naperville man- this is exactly why there are age restrictions on hiring, earlier retirements and why I don't want some 70 year old guy patrolling my neighborhood. Hope the officer recovers quickly.

Did anyone in District 204 see that other teachers in Illinois got a raise? So now you can climb off District 204's teachers and see they are keeping up with other districts!

http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=299340

The only reason that sound wall is being built is to pacify the handful of NIMBY whiners who chose to live by a major road, then act all surprised when it gets widened. If the NIMBY's want the wall, then it goes on their property with no compensation. The city is already going to spend millions of our money to pacify a few, no need to spend more because a few think they are owed something.

Owners of houses along the 75th/Washington turn lane construction want Naperville to pay them for the land they lose when they get a free sound buffer wall. Tim West wrote a column in support of this. I think if the city pays them for the land, they should be charged for the wall. Seems fair to me...

Taxes wrote:

And I don't want to hear about Social Security. SS is funded 6.2% by the employee and 6.2% by the private employer. The government gives nothing. Our income taxes, state taxes, and real estate taxes do not go to fund SS. We the taxpayers make a contribution in it that is matched by our private employer....not the taxpayer and not Uncle Sam.

Too bad you "don't want to hear about Social Security", because it would become an issue (one of many) if you got rid of all of the pensions for public employees. If you take away the employees' pensions, they will start participating in Social Security, in which case their employer (i.e., us) will have to start paying 6.2% of their salaries to SS. Locally, we'd save money on our police and fire department employees, but end up having to pay more for our teachers, since the school district currently pays next to nothing for teacher's pensions. Since there are a lot more teachers than there are police officers or fire fighters, it would probably be a wash in the savings department.

"In my subdivision where no police, fire fighters or city employees live, not one resident is in favor of higher taxes or happy about current taxes. I talk to them every day while taking my walks."

You told us in another blog that your property taxes are well over $60k. HELLO, which public employee can afford to live in a McMANSION? I don't feel bad for you at all, you chose to live in a gigantic house with gigantic taxes. You are trying to nickel and dime the public servants of this community because you CHOSE to take it up the wazzzoooooooo,lol. I live in a $100,000 condo, my taxes were only $1100. I'm not taking anything up the wazzooooooo, I know my limits. I live within my means.

Experienced --

Don't scratch the rash any more, it just makes it worse.

T.B.

Calling Experienced a LIAR when he obviously responded to your request for full disclosure is EXACTLY why no one respects you on this blog site. Experienced seems to be very intelligent and thoughtful and we have no reason to doubt his integrity. You, on the other hand have admitted to playing little games to disguise your identity. Your obvious disrespect for others, including their opinions when they differ from yours is pitiful and disgusting. You should apologize to Experienced as he is one of the few willing to even have a conversation with you.

By the way, I intentionally sent that post anonymously to get another chuckle from you.

Taxes, Taxes and more Taxes on June 4, 2009 1:05 AM

OK, let's look at what you said. At 8:12 PM you said: After reading that Letter to the Editor in the Sun about how government spent all the pension money for the police, fire fighters, politicians and teachers and wants us to replace it by feeling sorry for them, ...

Therefore, you are the one who stated that the government spent the pension money for the police and fire. That's what I called you on. The city government did no such thing. You have said so yourself on a number of occasions. The Weiss letter did not mention police and fire. It said: The driving force behind much of the budget deficit seems related to under-funded pension plans. It's not that the citizens of Illinois didn't pay their fair share to support the teachers and municipal employees' pension plans. They did. The state government diverted those funds, and didn't fulfill its obligation to make the necessary contributions, and spent the money elsewhere. So, where did YOU get the police and fire reference at 8:12 PM?

Now that's not to excuse Weiss in his reference to municipal employees. State Statute is clear that there are NO state funds contributed to IMRF. As I stated, IMRF is solely funded by participating local governments and employees. The fund's only problem is for the current year and it is taking steps to resolve those problems in designating contributions to make up for the short fall. Of all the public pension funds in the state, IMRF is probably the most stable and closest to 100% funded.

Now let's go back to my first two posts on June 3d. I placed the first as a matter of information to let those who are following the pension question know of recent developments. That development was positive to reverse one of the problems concerning the pension funds. I posted it without comment, either positive or negative. The second I posted to let those who were following the question that another piece legislation was not moving through the House which would also reverse one of the problems concerning the pension funds. I suggested that people contact their house member to let them know their opinion. Again, I did not speak to whether they should support or not support the bill. Both postings were purely FYI.

I don't believe that I have ever voiced an opinion that the pension funds should remain as they currently are set up. I don't think I voiced a position at all on the subject either positive or negative. I only voiced the opinion that your plan wouldn't work and I told you why. I was attempting to get you to think through the pitfalls of your proposal to come up with one that would work. Much of what I say on all thread on this blog is without taking a position but only to inform. Of course, as normal, you consider anyone who questions your proposals to be totally against you and you take it personally. You can't discuss the issue, you discuss the person.

Finally, let's go back to the peanut brain comment. We, you and I, discussed that pension fund levies were not subject to tax caps for non-home rule governments. Despite our discussion, when I called you on the question of the constitutional provision being superior to any state statute passed by the General Assembly, you then said that what should happen is that home rule should be withdrawn and that would effectively send the pension funds into insolvency. If you disregard a discussion that we had only a week before, you should expect to be called on it. And, I did. You only seem to recall facts in favor of your arguments and not those that are contrary thereto. I did get your attention though, didn't I? Every time you bring it up, I chuckle.

Experienced,

I have been blogging here and obviously know the police and fire funds have their own pension funds.

It is me who has been blogging about their combined pension deficit of $61.4 million despite a 22.16% contribution by the Naperville Taxpayers.

It is me who has been blogging that despite this 21.16% taxpayer contribution to their pension funds, they managed to increase their deficit another $9.7 million in one single year.

It is me who has been blogging that you can not expect to put 9.45% of your money if you are a police officer and 9.91% of your money if you are a fire fighter and expect the taxpayers to give you 75% of your highest and final pay at age 52 till you die for the measly amount you are contirbuting. The math simply does not add up and we are fighting a losing battle to fix it by 2033. It will be 5 times worse by 2033 and not 90% funded based on the simple math. Our public officials are in denial and know they will be 6 feet under in 2033 and no one will hold them accountable.

They will be as accountable as former Mayor Sam McCrane who had all the Napergate records buried with him so he can preserve his legacy.

So I guess the state is incompetent in the pensions they manage.

And the police and fire fighters may also be incompetent in the managing of their own funds.

Is there anything new you can add to the conversation?

I want every pension fund in the USA government system be it the Federal, State or local municipality to be funded from those who will benefit fully. I want to see all taxpayer contributions to public funds ended immediately.

I would like to see taxpayers keep this 21.16% contributions in their own 401ks, IRAs and Roths. They are not receiving 75% of final and highest pay at age 52, so they need every dime of their money so they can save in their own retirement funds and try to get a retirement pay-out one fourth as good as those of the fire fighters and police fighters.

And I don't want to hear about Social Security. SS is funded 6.2% by the employee and 6.2% by the private employer. The government gives nothing. Our income taxes, state taxes, and real estate taxes do not go to fund SS. We the taxpayers make a contribution in it that is matched by our private employer....not the taxpayer and not Uncle Sam.

Do you finally see how unfair this fiasco is Experienced? If you don't I will continue to assume you are a public employee who is pretending to be a forensic accountant.

A private individual would not be defending public employee pensions in the way you are. Why are you supporting those who screw you out of your money? You ask me if my brain is the size of a peanut. May I ask you what size your brain is, Experienced to let your public officials let you have it up the wazoooo day after day?

Now Rachel, wants people to disclose themselves? You are the only one left up at 12 am blogging. So sad, you just cant compete with Experienced who is obvious alot smarter than you. 60k in taxes, ya right. You probably live in an apartment on Inland Circle. Keep up the good work Experience showing how misinformed Rachel, oh I mean taxes is.

By Taxes, Taxes and more Taxes on June 3, 2009 8:12 PM
By Experienced on June 3, 2009 6:01 PM
By Taxes, Taxes and more Taxes on June 3, 2009 3:26 PM

After reading that Letter to the Editor in the Sun about how government spent all the pension money for the police, fire fighters, politicians and teachers and wants us to replace it by feeling sorry for them, do you really expect me to acknowledge that government has served the people all along?

-------------------------------

I didn't expect you to acknowledge that your legislators did something to reduce the pension deficit. Then you wouldn't have anything to complain about.

Now, please remember that the state makes NO contribution to police and fire pensions. All contributions come from the employees and local government. Therefore, the fact that PAST governors and general assemblies had redirected state contributions from the GARS, JRS, SURS, TRS, and SERS has no bearing on the police and fire pension funds throughout the state.

Similarly, IMRF is a self sustaining pension fund that is state wide but receives no state funds. Funds come strictly from participating local governments and employees. Up until the current year, the fund had NO deficit in its actuarial determined requirements. This year because of the market downturn, the fund fell short. The projected 11.53% is to make up for that shortfall and will bring the fund back to full funding.

By Taxes, Taxes and more Taxes on June 3, 2009 8:12 PM

I don't know how many times I have to tell you. I am not a government employee. I am a forensic accountant and litigation consultant. The only government retirement funds I will receive are from social security.

There you go. Full disclosure.


By Experienced on June 3, 2009 6:01 PM
By Taxes, Taxes and more Taxes on June 3, 2009 3:26 PM

I think a little acknowledgement on your part that government was serving the people all along would be in order.

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After reading that Letter to the Editor in the Sun about how government spent all the pension money for the police, fire fighters, politicians and teachers and wants us to replace it by feeling sorry for them, do you really expect me to acknowledge that government has served the people all along? Who are you kidding, Experienced?

What is more important is for you to be a man and acknowledge that you work for government and will be receiving one of these Big Fat Pensions? Why have you appointed yourself SPOKESMAN for all Illinois Governments?

Common, it is time for you to come clean with the residents of Naperville and tell us what your commencement date is for your Big Fat Pension at 75% of your final and highest salary? Are your colleagues in government planning a retirement party for you where they give you one last raise followed by a promotion to make your Big Fat Pension even FATTER?

I think it is time for FULL DISCLOSURE.

What say you, Experienced?

By Taxes, Taxes and more Taxes on June 3, 2009 3:26 PM

Ah, yes but the Legislature is doing it the right way by creating a two tier system. Your way to abolish all pensions wouldn't work because it would be unconstitutional. I merely pointed out why your way would not work. I didn't say that there wasn't a solution. Just not yours. Senate Bill 369 doesn't decrease anyone's pension who already has one. It is prospective in nature also.

So, when are you calling Senger to let her know that she should vote for the Senate Bill?

Also, it would appear that while you have been whining that nothing was being done, the Senate was actively working on the pension problem within constitutional restraints. I think a little acknowledgement on your part that government was serving the people all along would be in order.

Liz,

The only people hijacking this blog site are people like you and the 3 Stooges who will not get over a 6 month issue that was remedied a long long time ago.

All these names are constantly brought up by bloggers who do not know how to blog. Bloggers who do not know how to debate. Bloggers who can not discuss the subject on the thread. Bloggers who have no knowledge. Bloggers who have no real life experiences. Bloggers who have no credibility. Bloggers who have nothing better to do in their apparently boring lives. Bloggers who need to get rises and highs by attacking dead horses.

If you don't like these names being brought up ask the Moderator to stop allowing bloggers to bring them up. Ask the Moderator to stop all these personal attacks.

I will admit I do try to respond to these personal attacks but the Moderator does a good job of censoring my counter-attack blogs. In hindsight he is doing me a favor by not letting me getting muddied with all those who have mud on them. By not allowing me to lower myself to their levels.

Anyway, I hope you understand who the cause of all this is. With your comment you have also become the CAUSE. You are escalating the problem instead of letting it simmer down.

Why don't you give us your constructive criticism of City Hall and how they waste taxpayer money like drunken sailors? Tell us if you would like to see your taxes go up next year or down next year? Tell us why you would like to see your taxes increase or decrease?

I am a little surprised as to how many people on this blog site are happy with high taxes and don't mind seeing higher taxes. In my subdivision where no police, fire fighters or city employees live, not one resident is in favor of higher taxes or happy about current taxes. I talk to them every day while taking my walks.

This to me indicates there is an orchestrated attempt by City Officials on this blog site to push for more taxes so they can get their BIG FAT PENSIONS at taxpayer expense.

I will continue to campaign for No More Tax Increases on this blog site and elsewhere.

Experienced,

Were you not the one hollering that you need a constitutional amendment to reduce pensions.

It sounds like you are admitting you were wrong without apologizing for insisting you were right.

I guess you finally answered your own accusations.

I am sure it was you who was attacking me for asking the legislature to change the laws.

And now you are saying they can change the laws.

I can no longer read the Sun online. Too many articles and blogs are being hyjacked by one or several juvenile and possibly mentally inept posters posing as Barack Obama, Marilyn Monroe, California Dreaming, et al. I might as well be reading the Nickelodeon message board. It just makes me shake my head in wonder as to what sort of satisfaction one can gain by making a public fool of themselves.

Senate Bill 1292 has been passed by the Senate but is languishing in the House Committees. It creates a two tier system whereby new members of state pension funds have different funding and benefits than existing members (therefore, there is no constitutional problem with diminishing pension benefits for existing members). Call Senger and Connelly and tell them your opinion.

SPRINGFIELD—State Senator Dan Kotowski’s (D-Park Ridge) pension reform legislation has passed both houses of the General Assembly (GA). It brings GA members’ pension rules in line with those of other state employees. The proposed law also includes judges.

Senate Bill 369 changes the way GA members and judges’ pensions are calculated. In all of the state’s pension programs, the amount of money pensioners are paid is based upon their final average salaries. Unlike most state employees, GA members and judges’ average salaries are the amount they are being paid on their final day of work. For general state employees, teachers, and public university employees, the final average salary is the average of the 48 highest paying consecutive months of employment. Kotowski’s proposal applies this same formula to GA members and judges.

“This reform increases fairness,” said Kotowski. “Members of the General Assembly and judges are servants of Illinois, just like teachers, professors, prison guards, and others. We should receive the same pensions.”

This legislation would also deter abuses of the pension system.

“Under the current system, a state senator, state representative or judge can receive a massive raise and quit the next day,” explained Kotowski. “Their pension will be based on that one day’s work. Other state employees must work four years, 1,461 days, to receive the same benefit.”

Since many judges and assembly members will receive lower pensions, this initiative is also a cost-saving measure.

“We’ve been talking a lot about cuts and revenue enhancements to solve Illinois’ financial crisis,” said Kotowski. “This is an easy cut to make. It not only saves money, it is the right thing to do. We legislators should lead by example.”

Senate Bill 369 has passed both the Illinois House and Senate. It is now on the governor’s desk.

http://www.senatedem.ilga.gov/GH_ShowArticle.asp?HID=1344

Keyboard Rambo,

If anyone destroyed this blog site it is you and your fellow stooges.

I was on this blog site from Day 1 when it was strong and getting stronger.

I only reviewed one thread since I have been on. The pension thread in August of 08. I was blogging away with dozens of bloggers and it was very civil. It was very infomative. It was very educational. And I only used the same one handle for 35 days even though I had not been discovered yet. And most times I only used one handle per thread. A few times I deviated from this pattern and had a little bit of harmless fun using many names per thread as I am doing right now.

The only thing missing was the 3 Stooges in the busy old days of the blog site.

Ever since the 3 Stooges popped their heads this blog site took a nose dive. For those who do not know the 3 stooges, are Keyboard Rambo, Anonymous One, and Fed Up with his Own Noise also known as the Noisemaker.

I blog about serious issues that taxpayers and residents care about. I blog about the issues my neighbors discuss while walking their dogs.

I only attack when I am attacked. I think that has been proven by those who observe like John Q. Public.

Since I usually only blog on 2 of the 10 threads the Moderator provides, what do you attribute the slowness to on the other 8 threads I never show up on. An invisible ghost!

Ironically, you want to blame me for a little slowness, but the busiest threads by far are the one I blog on. Even a dummy would have noticed that. Almost every blogger come on to discuss, debate or attack me. Trust me, I am not the cause of slowness.

Even suggestions to boycott my remarks have only had the opposite effect.

It shows you have a hole in your head.

And since you mention the Napergate Man, need I remind you the Napergate Man was attacked viciously for years before he made fools of your likes....and your ilk of stooges.


________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

PS. On a serious note tying more print edition articles to the blog site could help this blog site. The print edition is still strong and can be used to pump this blog site before it utters its last breath some time in the near future. Nothing against the Naperville Sun but I feel all print in the nation will be discontinued in the next decade.

I'll absolutely agree with K. R. on this point.
I still read here, though less frequently, but am not likely to participate. The amount of material that a certain someone can contribute is ruining these forums in a lot of ways.
I'm not at all in favor of censorship, not in the least degree, but in these forums, and perhaps for a while, how about asking our moderator not to approve any postings that are not strictly on topic? I admit that it wouldn't help all that much, but it might keep the bigger messes in the 'open topic' arenas?
The V.O.R.

TB,

I am not hijacking the discussion. There are usually 8 threads I don't even visit out of the 10. The ones I don't visit many times are very slow.

I am dominating maybe this thread because as the Modeator said there are very few bloggers. Plus most bloggers address me and I try to respond to each and everyone of them. While bloggers have a love/hate relationship, they also do like to communicate with me.

As far as multiple names, I tried to extend an Olive Branch and use one handle. Your fellow bloggers continue calling me so many names so sometimes I use the name they call me to respond.

I guess if a blogger wants to call me Marilyn, I will respond as Marilyn Monroe. Maybe I can get some bloggers to lighten up. They can't seem to get over an issue 6 months old where I patted myself on the back. It is not against blog policy to use more than one moniker in case you did not know TB.

Don't blame me. I was willing to move forward. Your fellow bloggers were not.

Since I gave them a chance to move forward and they refuse, I now feel comfortable using as many handles as I feel like using.

Since you referred to me as Marilyn, my handle is Marilyn on this post.

I've noticed a direct correlation in a decrease in comments and the increase of the multiple personality blogger immediately dominating any topic with "the sky is falling" and other Napergate nonsense. If your goal was to drive away anyone who actually wants to post about things because they don't feel like arguing with someone who instantly starts in on an epic rant questioning bias, expertise, and integrity... Mission accomplished!

I don't really even bother posting here anymore, which is saying a lot because this used to be one of my favorite sites. One bad apple truly does spoil the bunch in small online communities like this.

And on a new topic….

Chris, when did the Potluck start to deteriorate so badly? Why is one person (of many names) allowed to continually hijack the discussion? It’s become very bothersome to wade through the noise to have an intelligent discourse with other people on these threads. What’s happened?

I’d also be curious to know how the page views and posts are fairing…I would assume they’re down in numbers from a year ago…probably even from six months ago.

T.B.

Cliff, Taxes, Marilyn, or whoever you are –

I could just as easily state that since you’re an irrational taxpayer peddling doomsday financial scenarios, you have a conflict on any funding issue. Perhaps this explains you’re unwavering opposition to any government pension (except Social Security, which I would argue is a social safety net and was never meant to be anyone’s primary income source in retirement).

You can try to turn this into an issue about me and what you inaccurately perceive as a conflict of interest, but you’re ignoring the fact that you were not accurately representing my previous posts.

T.B.

TB,

You can deny you have a conflict of interest or bias when blogging.

But if your "flesh and blood" brother is a firemen receiving a large pension and you love him as you should, you will be pushing for him to have this large pension even though it is not affordable to the taxpayer.

If this is not bias, I do not know what is.

JQP,

Are you giving the Multi-Handle Blogger the unltimate complement by stating he/she can think outside the box.

I thought only I could think out of the box.

Just because he/she suggested City Hall should be imploded and sent sailing down the Dupage River with its drunken sailors does not qualify him/her as taking my title away from me.

I am the King of Out-of-the Box Thinkers and no one is taking my Crown away from me.

Taxes –

You’ve recently used me as a reference twice and I’d like to ask you to think better of it.

On May 29th @ 1:09 pm you told JQP to “ask TB” about how informed you claim to be. If JQP were to ask me (he didn’t) I’d have to say that while you did recall two facts I’ve posted about myself, I fail to see how making this recollection increases your credibility on other topics. Cliff Clavin on “Cheers” was full of worthless knowledge, but that didn’t make him less of a buffoon. Perhaps you should use that name as your next moniker?

Then on May 30th @ 8:10 pm you posted “Be a man like TB was and admit your conflict of interest”. You’ve alleged a conflict on my behalf more than once on the pension topic, but I have always denied I have a conflict (most recently on May 28th @ 10:45 am). Please stop miss-representing my position on the topic.

T.B.

Taxes,

The problem with your analysis is that you've taken a snapshot of one year's data from CM Bob and projected backward and forward as if it reflects a permanent trend. We don't know how long the city has been contributing at the 21.16% rate. In fact, since the city's share relies on an actuarial computation that is apparently re-calculated on an annual basis, this rate likely rises or falls with each year depending on the performance of the investment portfolio.

Note that the calculation assumes a certain level of investment returns each year, so if the market falls, or even if it rises but underperforms the assumed returns, the pension's funding deficit, if any, will increase, as will the city's contribution to the plan the following year. This is why the city can increase it's contribution in a given year and still see it's funding gap increase, even in a year of positive market returns. I know you understand this, but I say it here for the benefit of anyone reading this who might be deceived by your constant harping on the fact that the NPD's pensions gap increased by $9 million in a year when the city was contributing 21% of the police payroll to the fund. I highly doubt, by the way, that the actuaries assume 20-30% investment returns every year. If they are assuming any more than about 7-8%, they should be taken out and shot---or, at least fired, if shooting them proves to be infeasible.

I do agree with you that the actuarial approach to pension funding has some potential pitfalls depending on how the calculation is done. For example, Mr. Krieger asserted that the city has never taken a holiday on it's contribution. But this still leaves open the possibility that the city was making miniscule contributions for much of the 90's, when the stock market was returning 20-30% every year. With returns like that, the pension may have seemed to be in such great shape that little money from the city was required. We could have been sailing along with a pension that was more than fully funded, and then suddenly found ourselves in deep a hole when the market crashed in the early part of this decade---a deficit that was exacerbated by the much smaller than normal input from the city when the market was booming. So the 20% contributions we are making now might be offsetting 5% contributions from the 90's. Now, if you have some evidence that the city's contribution percentage never went below, say, 10% during the boom years, and that we were running a deficit in the 90's that grew every year, I might come around to agreeing with you that we need to seriously revamp our public employee pensions---or, at least, the police and fire dept. pensions.

Another thing: as you keep pointing out, the performance of the investment markets over the past decade has been abysmal. I agree with you that the pensions are going to be in very sad shape if this situation continues for another decade or two. If we get to that point, then the momentum to enact deep reductions in public employee retirement benefits might be enough to overwhelm whatever legal and constitutional obstructions lie in it's path. On the other hand, those of us who plan on funding our retirements from our 401k's and whatever Social Security is capable of paying then will also be in serious trouble. So in the sense that both types of plans are heavily dependent on investment returns for their success, there is not much difference between defined benefit and defined contribution retirement programs.

Finally, if I have to pick between your analysis of the situation and those of our city officials, I’ll take the city, folks, thank you. Thinking outside the box isn’t a very successful stratagem if it’s not grounded in a sober consideration of the facts at hand. The Unabomber, after all, was a major think-outside-the-box type.

-JQP

I came up with an excellent plan.

Now it is time for the politicans and legislature to implement my plan.

It is time for the Naperville Sun to put pressure on City Officals to get their act together.

There is nothing more I can do. I am not Jesus Christ.

If the taxpayers want to sleep and let the City of Naperville continue with these 11% increases they need to be ready to pay double what they pay in real estate taxes in 6.5 years.

Maybe the taxpayers don't mind thier taxes doubling every 6.5 years and I am barking up the wrong tree. Only time will tell.

I can not speak for all the taxpayers. I can only speak for myself.

I AM OUTRAGED AT THESE TAX INCREASES BY OUR DRUNKEN SAILORS RUNNING CITY HALL!! PERIOD1

Wow. Reading this blog and the back and forth snarky comments made me stop and think for a minute... is school out already? Buehler? Anyone?

By Experienced. on May 30, 2009 8:46 PM
By Taxes, Taxes and more Taxes on May 30, 2009 8:10 PM

Are you the only one who can have more than one user name? Why can't everyone else? If I want to be anonymous some times, why can't I? You were for the longest time.


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No, I am not the only one allowed to have more than one monikier. You are allowed to have as many as you would like. I think what is inappropriate is to pat yourself on the back with another moniker. I made that mistake in the past and learned from my mistake. I apologized for my mistake.

Your issue and you know it was not wanting to use another moniker. It was constant forgetfulness. You admitted several times you keep forgeting to insert your handle in a following post.

I know you forgot so I was simply taking a gentle stab at you for calling my memory the size of a peanut while yours turned out to be about the same size. Fair is fair! Just a little kidding back with you.

But don't lose your credibility by pretending you did not forget.

You love your moniker and love to use it. You love your ego. Both are your right and there are no rules on this blog site against loving your moniker or ego. It is totally permitted. It is lawful!
Keep lovin. Love is good.

Marilyn Monroe
.

Yes Rachel, you seem to be very knowledgeable in every aspect of life, please come up with your plan so the city can be saved. Without you, we are doooooomed.

By Taxes, Taxes and more Taxes on May 30, 2009 8:10 PM

Are you the only one who can have more than one user name? Why can't everyone else? If I want to be anonymous some times, why can't I? You were for the longest time. Wouldn't it be better to discuss the 5 reasons why your proposal won't work?

We are still where we started. You don't have a proposal that works. I have set forth the 5 reasons why it doesn't legally work. And, I only have addressed your proposal and not you. You have not rebutted my 5 reasons. Come up with a workable plan and maybe then we can take it to the next step, together. This is your pet project and we look to you for the plan because you know more about it than everyone else--or at least so you say. But whatever your plan is, you have to have a complete, legally workable plan. So far you don't have it. I have given you the reasons why. So, why don't you fix it instead of mouthing off?

By Anonymous on May 30, 2009 6:18 PM
By Taxes, Taxes and more Taxes on May 30, 2009 2:49 PM

"Someone with the moniker Anonymous stated and posted the statute, that if these pension funds can no longer make their 75% pay-outs, the taxpayers are not liable to make up the difference."

--------------------------------

Are you now saying that in your proposal you would not have to provide for existing police because the city would not be liable for a shortfall? If that is your position, then there is no crisis, and we no longer have to debate the topic.

Which way is it? You can't have it both ways.


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First, you need to tell your peanut sized brain to stop forgetting to insert your moniker, Experienced.

Secondly, as soon as the 21.16% matching contributions are halted this debate is over....not a second before. As long as 21.16% of taxpayer money is being given to the police and fire fighters and their pension deficit increases 9.7 million annually, this debate will continue to rage like a fire.

It is obvious you are gettig one of these Big Fat Pensions. Be a man like TB was and admit your conflict of interest in debating on this blog site. You are so biased. Issue a full disclosure as to your status in regards to these Big Fat Pensions.

I am not asking to have it both ways. I am only asking to have it one way. Police and fire fighters are big boys and girls and need to fend for themselves when it comes to pensions. I am sick and tired of subsidizing them and you in the legal dept. This must all come to a screeching halt before it IMPLODES.

That is a good sign that you are finally all concerned about your outrageous taxes. Kudos to you all!

Now let us control government excesses so we can control taxes!

The pool felt so good today. No, I don't live on this blog site....but I enjoy it and I think we can eventually sober our drunken sailor politicians so they watch our tax dollars. Maybe we need to throw them off the high board at Centennial Beach and see if that would sober some of them up.

By Taxes, Taxes and more Taxes on May 30, 2009 2:49 PM

"Someone with the moniker Anonymous stated and posted the statute, that if these pension funds can no longer make their 75% pay-outs, the taxpayers are not liable to make up the difference."

--------------------------------

Now, this is interesting. At that time when the statute was again pointed out to you, you said that the poster was incorrect in the position that the city would not be liable for any shortfalls to the police pension fund. Are you now saying that in your proposal you would not have to provide for existing police because the city would not be liable for a shortfall? If that is your position, then there is no crisis, and we no longer have to debate the topic.

Which way is it? You can't have it both ways.

I agree with Chris. He could put many things up that would get only a few comments, like the school prank post--6 comments, not many care. The posts that get hits are taxes, school taxes, city pensions and taxes. Did I mention taxes?

And, if a post is published that isn't about these things, you can bet your camel, goat, lamb or hog it will become about them if it's ongoing and popular!

By Experienced on May 30, 2009 6:22 AM
By Taxes, Taxes and more Taxes on May 29, 2009

Your proposal as currently stated is to: "My proposal is let us treat everyone in this country equally. Let us have everyone on the same Social Security System."

1. If this is to take affect for current employees, will it be successful if it takes a constitutional amendment. If not, how will you fund the pensions for current employees?


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Someone with the moniker Anonymous stated and posted the statute, that if these pension funds can no longer make their 75% pay-outs, the taxpayers are not liable to make up the difference. I read it a few days ago on this blog site. I thought it was you forgetting to post your moniker as you seem forgetful at times.

As far as how I will fund the pensions for current employees, I will tell them the only way we can get you 75% is if you allow us to increase your PERSONAL contributions from 9.45% to 29.45% or 39.45%. If you want a Big Fat Pension you have to pay a Big Fat Contribution to be entitled. That is it.

If I want a nice retirement from my 401k one day, I have to pay into it substantially. If I don't I will have a subsistence retirement. That is how the world spins, Experienced.

I will try to respond to your other questions later. I must hit the pool for a little while. Please read my posts above yours as it details some of the reforms I am suggesting.

I would also like to hear some solutions from you instead of always question after question. Even though the Moderator has not yet declared you an intelligent blogger, I will declare you as intelligent blogger. Show us some of your intelligence with proposals and soltuions instead of questions for others.

We need your particpation in the solution. Unless, you don't want to participate in the solution since you may be an attorney working at City Hall and one day will be receiving one of these Big Fat Pensions.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

PS. The Social Security can be strengthened substantially by increasing the maximum on the contributions form $106,800 to say 150k. It would become much more solvent. It seems the poor and middle class are taxed to the max, while the weatlhy and rich are given a break after $106,800. Plus the US Feds can always print a little more money and pay us with inflated dollars as a last resort. Something states and cities can not do. If 150k is not enough we can go to 200k as a maximum. There are solutions for SS since the pay-outs are reasonable and only a safety net. The pension pay-outs come to early, are too fat, are not deserved and are not sustainable.

Imagine the SS system is having trouble and it only pays out a small amount for a FULL retirement pay-out at age 70. The pension system pays out a full amount multiple times larger as young as age 50. Fixing the SS System is peanuts compared to fixing the Pension System. I will be nice and not say you have a brain the size of a peanut as you have alleged my memory was the size of a peanut. Let us respect the Moderator and keep this civil. He does not like to censor the filth that some bloggers post about Marily Monroe and I understand he is between a rock and a hard place when deciding what to post.

While both the SS and Pension systems are struggling, of course to greatly different degrees, the major difference is the Pension System is corrupt and unfair. The SS System is not corrupt and very fair. It is worth saving. The pension system needs to be exploded or allowed to implode itself.

I don't mean to be mean but if you (Chris Magee)can't find any news worth discussing...you should take a vacation. I'm really saying that kindly because there is soooo much worth discussing in this world. It could also be a sign that the Naperville Sun needs to have more meater articles not only of local news but also worldly. One or two would help! It might actually help people put things into perspective and live beyond their own little Naperville world.

There was no thread for anything on Memorial Day. Great opportunity there. Many topics could have been discussed, not to mention just a place for people to post a thank you to someone they knew as a veteran (living or dead) or a veteran maybe discussing their piece of history to pass on to all of us.

You got sports, what people are planning for the summer (is the economy putting a bite into it) etc. Graduation topics either HS or College. Summer movies...try some light stuff from time to time also & maybe you won't have everything turning into Naperville's claimed corruption and taxes. Maybe have different posters also!

They could have a permanent section on Sustainability (just to irritate the non-believers of course) which provides some links to general information & helpful ideas and things people are doing in the community. Perhaps a spot light each month on a business or citizen and what they are doing.

And please tell them to put the Drew Peterson section on the bottom of the page where it belongs!

By Taxes, Taxes and more Taxes on May 29, 2009 9:05 PM

Please note that I am not discussing you, I am discussing the holes in your proposal.

Your proposal as currently stated is to: "My proposal is let us treat everyone in this country equally. Let us have everyone on the same Social Security System."

1. If this is to take affect for current employees, will it be successful if it takes a constitutional amendment. If not, how will you fund the pensions for current employees?

2. What will you do with the current assets of the funds?

3. What will you do for those employees who are members of the trade unions?

4. How will your plan, whether implimented statewide or nationwide, affect the already cash strapped social security system?

5. Social Security is not sufficient for most people to live on. How will you bring up the retirement savings to acceptable levels for older employees who do not have sufficient time to build private retirement accounts.

By John Q. Public on May 29, 2009 11:59 PM
Krieger said the funds are at a healthy level now.
"By 2033, the state has mandated we have our funds at 90 percent funded, and I think we'll be in the right position by then," he said.
Mr. Krieger, of course, is a member of the establishment, so we can't trust what he says. It's in his best interest to hide the problem until it becomes unmanageable, blows up in his face, and destroys his career....Not.

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Mr. Krieger in my opinion does not have a handle on the situation. I bet he will be retired by 2033 as it is 24 years away. He knows he will never be held accountable if the funds are not 90% funded by 2033.

Many bloggers here have blamed the City of Naperville for taking a vacation holiday from paying up on pension contributions. I said they did not based on my Dupage Tax Bills. Mr. Krieger has confirmed that most bloggers who blamed it on lack of contributions were wrong. I do not know if you were in that group, JQP. Were you?

In your second to last blog you seem to have confidence in the actuaries for the City of Naperville and their long term projections.

I like how Mr. Krieger is blaming the actuaries for the 9.7 million discrepancy in one year. But you seem to think they know what they are doing.

I know I keep repeating myself but all this blame is simply sugar coating a corrupt and broken system. These actuaries should simply come out and tell us the contributions being put in will never be enough to sustain the pay-outs that are needed for the future.

I guess they always have the X factor to use on us. That X factor is that IF the market would give us 30% returns over the next 24 years, we can sustain this beast. That is true and possible but you and I know is very unlikely based on historical evidence. The last 12 years the market has produced about 0. Do you realize JQP that the Nasdaq was about 5100 in early 2000 and is now about 1700? That means if any of these pension funds invested in Nasdaq Stocks like Msft, Intel, and Cisco which were considered blue chip, that they were down nearly 67% in 9 years.

Japan had a similar bust like we just had in the early 90s. Twenty years later they have not recovered. In other words, no real ROI.

I think here is where the pension system fails. It factors in an unattainable return on investment. If this return does not materialize such as in the last dozen years, the pensions funds get in very deep trouble. If they only invest in TBILLS or TBONDS they can make 2% but you must know at 2%, it takes 36 years to double your money. This can hardly help the pension systems for police, fire and others in cities throughout Illinios that want to pay-out 75% to each individual while only taking 9.45% from each individual.

How can you collect 9.45% of average pay for 30 years and pay-out 75% of final and highest pay for 40 years? I have provided hypothetical numbers to show this could result in a 2.5 million deficit for each employee if I recall correctly. This is the core root of the problem, JQP.

If the ROI is not there the only parachute left is the taxpayer. We have been contributing 21.16% and with each such contribution and the market not performing, we increase our deficit by a little over 10 million. If we continue on this path and the market continues on its path of wealth destruction, we will have an additional 240 million pension deficit besides the 60 million we have right now by the infamous year 2033. At this pace we will have a 300 million deficit by that infamous year instead of being 90% funded which is really wishful thinking by politicians who are benefitting from the system and know they will be 6 ft under in 2033 and on their way to Heaven or Hell.

Another way to look at it, is if each employee is generating a 2.5 million deficit as my example in a recent post showed, 200 retirees one day, will have a combined 500 million deficit which is greater than the 300 million I documented above. Therefore, I have reason to believe these incompetent actuaries are not factoring in that one day we will in fact have 200 retirees. The difference betweem me and others, is I think out of the box. Most people simply think in the box and use information spoon fed to them by those who have interests to protect. You need to do a little thinking out of the box, Mr. Public. Your massive reliance on quotes of politicians who do not know what they are talking about is very counter-productive to arriving at any cutting edge solutions.

Believe me the actuaries, the local politicians, the city managers, the state legislature do not have a clue what they are doing. They are either all incompetent or all in denial.

We talk about 2033 as if it is tomorrow. There will be no 2033 for the pension system. The pension system will collapse way before 2033. If the constitution needs to be changed to save the pension system as Experience states, than the constitution must be changed. A simple referendum put forward to the residents can change the constitution. It is just a matter if the will is there by the majority.

The "will" will be there one day. Since 21.16% matching taxpayer contributions did not work, I am sure our local politicians will try 30% contributions. And then they will try 40%. And then they will try 50% contributions to see if the deficit can be decreased instead of increased annually.

I mean how far could these idiotic actuaries be off on the mortality rate as the Mr. Krieger is suggesting. The mortality rate changes a fraction at the most from year to year. And if you want to say the pension system does no longer work because people are living to a 100 instead of 60, and we simply don't have the funds to pay them due to this longevity factor that we never expected, of course I will buy this as a good part of the reason why the pension system is broken and can not be self sustaining. This could be a huge contributing factor as people are living longer and longer. And keep in mind POs and FFs have twice the chance since either they or their SPOUSE collect till they die. So if a PO had a lot of stress in his life and died at age 70 and his wife had no stress and lived till 100, we are paying pension benefits for those extra 30 years that she continues to live. Generally speaking wives outlive their husbands by 7.7 years. The actuaries need to focus on the wives' ages and not the husbands' ages to get a better grip. I am only assuming that most POs and FFs are male for this example. I am fully aware we have a handful of fine females serving and protecting us so there are exceptions.

As you can see, JQP, this pension mess is very complicated and has numerous variables. Our experts do not have a handle on it. They are simply passing the puck of blame from one place to another. That is a strong indication that they are basically clueless. Just babbling as long as they can until the pending IMPLOSION finally EXPLODES.

If the experts knew they could solve the PENSION DEFICIT they would not be throwing time periods 24 years into the future. They would give us a plan that will work RIGHT NOW. Not when many of us will be dead and unable to hold them accountable. That is ridiculous!

That is like telling my kids don't worry in 2033 I will be a billionaire and buy you each your private luxurious jet. Just wait and see. Yeah, sure!

BTW, here is what current City Manager Doug Krieger had to say about the pensions in the Sun last August:

Doug Krieger, finance director for the city, said the fluctuations in the funds are not because of a pension holiday, a practice where a taxing body contributes less than the required minimum. It is a practice that has gotten the state of Illinois into the $42 billion unfunded pension liability for retired teachers and state workers.
"The discrepancy comes from the actuarial's assumption for that year and the actual results," Krieger said. "The assumption could be that we did not return as much as expected on our investments or an incorrect mortality rate."
Krieger said the funds are at a healthy level now.
"By 2033, the state has mandated we have our funds at 90 percent funded, and I think we'll be in the right position by then," he said.

Mr. Krieger, of course, is a member of the establishment, so we can't trust what he says. It's in his best interest to hide the problem until it becomes unmanageable, blows up in his face, and destroys his career....Not.

Taxes wrote:

You can toot your horns all you want JQP but your comments do not make sense and are disputed by the facts that CM Bob provided...not Me.

This just proves that you still don't understand what CM Bob was saying.

As for the Woodridge pension fund manager, my recollection is that he was talking about the State of Illinois' pensions, not those of the NPD and NFD. If you want to prove me wrong, feel free to post a link to his post; I spent a little time looking for it, but couldn't find it...and I'm not going to take your word for it.

-JQP

JQP,

Now remember the former Pension Manager for the Village of Woodridge pretty much stated the sky was falling.

His exact words were the pension funds of the police and fire fighters are a disaster and will implode....the only question in his mind is when and not if. I agree with his charaterization 100%.

If the city actuaries had it right and figured the long term properly, the pension deficit would not increase by $9.7 million between May 1, 2007 and April 30, 2008. We the taxpayers contributed 21.16% probably based on some actuaries' numbers. The actuaries were suppose to begin to decrease the deficit since the State of Illinois orderered us to eliminate the deficit by the year 2033. Now are you trying to tell me, JQP, they have this figured out just right. I am sorry but they don't and the facts show they don't. If they had it figured out, we would not be in this mess. We would be decreasing the deficit and not increasing it annually. And don't tell me it was the market because the stock market was just fine in the period I noted above.

And really I did not propose draconian measures.

My proposal is let us treat everyone in this country equally. Let us have everyone on the same Social Security System. The government created this SS System but it is not good enough for its own employees....it is only good enough for civilian employees. Don't you see this as being draconian? How about ironic if not draconian?

I am calling for all citizens and employees in this country to be treated EQUALLY. And you call this draconian, JQP. Let us get real.

I am calling for all capable employees to have the same retirement age. You call this draconian, JQP. Let us get real.

I am calling for police officers who can run 26 mile marathons not to have the right to retire at age 52 with a FULL PENSION at taxpayer expense while doubly double dipping. You call this draconian, JQP. Let us get real.

I have no ulterior motive. I want the pension system destroyed. How much more clear could I be? I want it imploded. What ulterior motvie could I possibly have. It is too taxing to the taxpayers and I am Fed Up with my High Taxes.

It is really that simple. I don't hate police. I don't hate fire fighters. I don't hate city employees. I simply hate the corrupt pension system that is not self sustaining. What really could my ulterior motive be? I honestly can not think of what ulterior motive I can possibly have. It is not like I want to be Mayor of Naperville. If I did I would want to be promoting my name publicly for name recognition instead of a moniker that no one could ever identify....hopefully.

I simply want Big Fat Pensions eliminated so my Big Fat Tax Bills that are due on Monday can be decreased. And I have more than a few of these tax bills due on Monday so yes I am concerned more than most people since I am being bitten multiple times.

You can toot your horns all you want JQP but your comments do not make sense and are disputed by the facts that CM Bob provided...not Me. Tooting your horn will not win you any brownie points with me. I need hard core facts and evidence that counter my hard core facts and evidence. I need proof...real proof!

Taxes wrote:

I think it is you who is slipping into foolhood with your comments. I suggest you stop making some of your nonsensical comments. Stop being a smartalic like Experienced. Honestly, what is it with you guys. You are simply here to put people down instead of promoting your own ideas and opinions for change.

Taxes, forgive me for tooting my own horn, but I think my comments make a lot of sense to people who are willing to have a fact-based discussion grounded in reason and logic. You put a lot of facts in your posts, but are unwilling or unable to distinguish those that directly support your argument from those that are either peripheral, or completely unrelated. You certainly seem like you're bright enough to be able to make these distinctions, so I have to wonder if you have an ulterior motive when you consistently fail to do so. I'm sorry if you feel that my pointing this out to you comes across as a personal attack, but that is the way I see things.

In regard to pensions, Experienced and I have both presented information and arguments on other threads to the effect that the state of the Naperville public safety employees' pension plans is not as dire as you constantly make it out to be, even if it could stand some tweaking. You've ignored our arguments, and continue to recycle “facts” that have been discredited (case in point: you keep implying that the NPD pension deficit will balloon along with the substantial increase in the number of retirees that will take place in the next couple of decades, but the deficit as calculated by the actuaries certainly already takes this increase into account).

Believe it or not, some of the people you perceive as “attacking” you are open to ideas to reduce spending on pensions. But it isn't possible to have a reasoned discussion with you on ways to improve the solvency of our retirement plans because you insist on a the-sky-is-falling characterization of the problem, and the only solutions you're willing to consider are the draconian measures that you've proposed.

-JQP

By Anonymous on May 29, 2009 1:22 PM
John Q -
Not slippery, perfectly normal for Taxes. All these straw men, all the 'friends' who seem to have inside information, all the arguments spewed out. Of course, there is the occasional decent into the creepy factor, a la the posting on the Kilt place, but at least we've moved off some of the really disturbing topics of the past. It really is a sad testament.

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The sad testament is the gang mentality group who attacks me on everything I say without doing any research.

The Tilted Kilt was a perfect example of one of you low lifes accusing me of fabricating that a place hired 50 servers and another of you idiots mocking me for the same truthful and accurate statement. Accusing me of pretending to know, of fabricating, of lying, etc. How shameful of you all!

Well, I named the place even though I really did not want to. It was the Tilted Kilt, and it did in fact hire 50 servers out of 550 they interviewed. I triple checked this fact with the Area Director the General Manager and then the Assistant Manager. I visited the place a few times and literally seen most of the servers. I published a fact after I verified it was true.

I was accused of being dishonest. I was accused of lying. I was accused of fabricating. I was accused of pretending to know people I don't know. I actually know the first and last names of every person I mentioned above. But I intend to keep them private and respect their privacy.

Enough said!

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PS. This is the same orchestrated style the gang of stooges uses to attempt to discredit me when I discuss wasteful government and outrageous taxes. At this point who can not see through you all. Since you all seem to be so well organized and orchestrated in your knee jerk hateful reactions and attacks, it would not be far fetched that you are all City Officials blogging from your lush offices at Peg's Palace(Municipal Building) or the Taj Mahal(Police Dept.) while you are bored to death and waiting for your Big Fat Pensions to materialize. It is time to lay a few more of you off if you have this much free time on your hands. The taxpayers can no longer tolerate waste of their funds.

If I was not credible there would be no need for dozens of you to pop on here like stinging bees to attempt to discredit me. The facts would discredit me. The evidence would discredit me. The facts and the evidence have not discredited me in 2.5 years. Keep banging away while I discredit each and every one of you folks...or maybe fools is a more fitting word!

Taxes, Taxes and more Taxes on May 29, 2009 1:09 PM
I try not to go where I can make a fool of myself with a lack of knowledge and preparation.

_____________

Try Harder!

"By Chris Magee, moderator on May 29, 2009 11:39 AM
OWVU, two reasons. 1, I have been off since Tuesday. 2. I'm just not sure what to post. I want to put something new but I haven't seen any news stories that lend themselves to blogs. Any suggestions are welcome."

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How about Jon & Kate Gosselin? That will bring you hits.

Oh yeah, they are not Napervillians!

She did speak at Willow Creek, is that close enough? (Just kidding)

Mark F.,

I think you as Experienced don't get it. I have no problem with Mr. Marshall. I never met him and don't even know what he looks like.I don't know if he was a good cop or bad cop. I don't know if he is a good man or a bad man. I know nothing about him.

I am not against him. I am against the broken Pension System that he is legally taking advantage of.

The bottom line which I am having such a hard time getting through your thick skull and that of Experienced is that if the law could be changed and he did not get his full retirement till the young age of 70, just like the civilian population, we could save a ton of money for the taxpayers.

If we pay him 90k in "retirement pension" a year and we started paying him at 70 instead of 52, we would save $1,620,000 and all the interest on that money. Easily over $2.5 million over 18 years.

Why does he deserve a retirement pension? He is not retired. He is not disabled. He is not only physically healthy but can run a 26 mile marathon. And he is gainfully employed for over 150k and working on a second IMRF pension.

What you guys don't understand is I am complaining about a corrupt pension system....corrupt laws....corrupt constitution if that can get Experienced on my side instead of dickering all the time about fine points of law with me as if I was a constitutional law professor from Harvard? I am not!

Did you guys not read that article on the other thread stating Joliet is facing a $67 million deficit by the year 2012 despite having 4 Cash Cow Casinos literally printing money so the drunken sailors that run that town can spend it at will???

This insanity has gone way too far.

Where is former Host Ted Slovick to give us his opinion about Joliet since he is a resident there? I know he follows this blog site and would like him to give us his thoughts on the Joliet Catastrophe. I want to know if he is willing to pay an increase in taxes to the tune of 25% and more to come in the future.

I doubt he would. I recall he chose Joliet because of lower taxes than Naperville. Because of affordability. He must be outraged!

Give him a call Moderator Chris and ask him to join us in this debate. Please issue an invitiation to him. He may feel he is stepping on your toes if he is not invited. He is a very good man. So was former Moderator Jim Lynch who I e-mailed on occasion.

John Q -
Not slippery, perfectly normal for Taxes. All these straw men, all the 'friends' who seem to have inside information, all the arguments spewed out. As soon as someone challenges one of those arguments, or posts something contrary, Taxes either tries to do this sort of thing, or writes another two page defense of its position. These two tactics allows it to continue to say the slightest variations of the same things over and over and over again, which is all it ever does.
Of course, there is the occasional decent into the creepy factor, a la the posting on the Kilt place, but at least we've moved off some of the really disturbing topics of the past.
It really is a sad testament.

JQP,

I never insinuated that pensions are the primary cause of Californian's situation. How many times did I attack the high salaries? How many times did I mention they finally took an 18% cut in their salaries? I read the link you posted. Did you not read the links and quotes I posted from the LA Times. They mentioned both pensions and other taxes as being the problem. If I post a quote, do you expect me to repeat and recite it. Don't you think my posts are plenty long? They are the longest of anyone and you can not expect any more detail from me unless you like reading Encyclopedias. This is a blog site. I am not working on my thesis for a PhD. Give me a break, please.

I guess you are a part time blogger who does not follow the entire conversation. Unlike yourself, I read every post on the 2 threads I blog on. So I stay informed....very well informed. Something even TB noted recently. I also have a good memory. Ask TB. I can remember what his brother does for a living and what his father does for a living from a blog over a year ago.

On the 8 threads I am not blogging on, I have not read a single post. I try not to go where I can make a fool of myself with a lack of knowledge and preparation.

I think it is you who is slipping into foolhood with your comments. I suggest you stop making some of your nonsensical comments. Stop being a smartalic like Experienced. Honestly, what is it with you guys. You are simply here to put people down instead of promoting your own ideas and opinions for change.

Again focus on the message and not the messenger unless you want to get into a mud slinging ring. Let us try to avoid that, please. You know how vicious I can be if I am allowed to fight below the belt. Let us not go there and stay civil. Last time you withdrew from the ring when it got too nasty for you. It was a good move on your part. So don't put yourself in that ring again if you can not fend for yourself!

Thank you!

Taxes asked:

What makes you think my problem with Naperville and the State of Illinois is only pensions? I have been complaining about numerous wastes of taxpayer money both at the city and state level for 2.5 years on this blog site. Dozens and dozens of examples were given by me besides pensions.

You are dodging here again. Regardless of what you've said on other blog topics, your primary focus on this thread has been pensions. You keep bringing up the California crisis, apparently as a cautionary tale for Naperville and Illinois, and you keep insinuating that pensions are the primary cause of California's situation. Now you are trying to backtrack and pretend that you were engaged in a general discussion about high government spending with no particular focus. Very slippery, indeed.

-JQP

By Taxes, Taxes and more Taxes on May 29, 2009 1:46 AM

*****

Again, research and answer your own questions. I am not being paid to answer your questions. Plus you don't ask questions you already know the answers to just to try to be a smart-alic on this blog site.

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I take that you now admit that your solution won't work for existing employees without a constitutional amendment. So, what's your solution now? Current employees will continue to be able to retire in the early 50's and draw their pensions. Even if you change the age to 70, it won't affect current employees because to do so would be against the state constitution. How are you going to fund the existing pensions?

Woops, sorry. I forgot that social security maxes out at $6,621.60 (not $9,000). Therefore my numbers are a bit high for Marshall and the asst city mgr position.

Is there a reason why new topics are not being posted? Someone on vacation lately?

Correction: To keep bringing up California to try to drum up support for your Naperville anti-pension crusade proves you don't understand the situation in California; that, or you are being disingenuous.

Experienced,

I have tried and tried to explain the point about Marshall to Taxes and she just refuses to acknowledge that she is jealous of the deal he got, despite the fact that it is costing her NO MORE in tax dollars than if she walked in off the street and took the position. I like the fact that you pointed out the SS savings as I did not recognize that piece of the argument. Evidently he was a valued employee with approx. 30 years experience, as he was hired back. She just does not like the fact that the situation is possible. Or maybe he ticked off her buddy Furstenau and that is why she can't stand it. Who knows? She acknowledges the fact that Pradel is doing the same thing but she likes him so she never calls him out for double dipping. Just don't expect your reasonable explanation to stop her from continually slamming Marshall as a "double dipper".

By Experienced on May 28, 2009 10:16 PM

Now, the benefit to the US taxpayers of the city hiring Marshall as asst city mgr is that the money going into social security will never be paid to Marshall. Therefore his contribution and the city's contribution are going to fund social security benefits for the rest of us.

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The 9000 we pay for Marshall's Social Security is such a waste since he will be getting a Big Fat Police Pension plus an IMRF Pension. Thanks for confirming to the bloggers that Mr. Marshall will be double dipping again in his retirement as he is during his working days.

The Social Security we pay for Mr. Marshall is money from Naperville Taxpayers that will not benefit Naperville Taxpayers except to a very very tiny degree. It is going to a US POOL as you correctly noted with your well chosen words.

If we hired a former civilian local, at least the Social Security Beneifts would indirectly return mostly to him instead of being squandered across the entire USA as in the case of Mr. Marshall who is thankfully not entitled to in essence to a third PENSION that being Social Security. A local civilian who retired here would spend some of his SS benefits in this area. Right now the 9k we put in for Mr. Marshall is like spreading ashes across the USA. Almost no benefit to Naperville or a local residents.

At least the US Government has some limits to the sanity of not allowing a 3rd retirement package by one individual. When will the State of Illinios and City of Naperville impose some sanity to their limits?

Speaking of more insanity it seems to me that city employees(excluding police and fire fighters) are entitled to both a PENSION and SOCIAL SECURITY. Wow! We are paying 11.53% plus 6.2% which is 17.73% which is barely less than we pay for our police and fire fighters in matching contributions. Holy Toledo! It now has a better ring to it since Toledo laid off half of its police force in one day. It simply could no longer afford them.

City Employees apparently are entitled to receive both IMRF and SS. Unbelievable! If they were not, both contributions would not be made by the city into the respective funds. Police and fire fighters do not pay into the Social Security and do not receive S.S. Benefits. That is very logical. But if you pay, you must receive. I understand why Mr. Marshall is a unique exception and he should be. God Bless the USA for doing something right. I salute the flag honoring our country for doing something right. Holy Mackeral!

There is no specfic hatred for the police or fire fighters as some dense bloggers allege. The hatred is for the entire State and City Pensions systems..... not for employees performing their duties in a professional manner. Does anyone really believe I support city non-safety employees receiving SS and an IMRF Pensions when they reitre? It is insanity to the nth degree.

We taxpayers receieve 6.2% from our employers in matching contributions...not from the taxpayers. And we get 0-2% if we are lucky of additional matching contributions on our saved 401k money.

Again, I see the entitlement that BigMike points out. Why such an entitlement? Do we really have to pay salaries that exceed the private world and top them with Big Fat Pensions to compete with private enterprise. Common, we have nearly 10% unemployment in this country with millions of people wishing they could have the salary of a city employee WITHOUT a Big Fat Pension. Thus these BFPs are a waste of taxpayer money. They should be abolished just like they were by almost all private corporations except for the ones that are stepping on each others toes these days to file bankruptcy like GM and Chrysler. Everyone should know by now that the legacy costs of the union employees put GM and Chrysler at competitive disadvantages causing them to fail. GM cars are superb. I own 3 of them and love them. I even own a 34 year old fuel injected GM car that is still running as good as any modern Japanese Car. Still on the orginal 351 engine. Amazing! The problem was never the cars....it was the LEGACY COSTS.

Back on topic....and top that with the fact we buy our city employees health insurance and life insurance. Most private employers charge for a greater part of our health and life insurance by making deductions from each paycheck.

Yes, government has become very fat and is issuing BIG FAT EVERYTHING to themselves. This is an inarguable fact.

You can beat around the bush all you want, Experienced, but the public knows better and can see through a government employee trying to protect his Big Fat Pension and that of his colleagues.

Are you going to deny you are a government employee, Experienced? It could not be more obvious. As I have always said those who come on here to defend the excesses of government are usually benefitting from them. This is Common Sense 101.

Most civilians would like to see the excesses of government curbed so they can begin rebuilding their own retirement funds in which they receive almost no help from anyone.

One day Naperville Sun Officials who do not receive Big Fat Pensions or Big Fat Benefits will see my point and make some NOISE....LOUD NOISE. They pay taxes like the rest of us and unfortuantely most of their taxes do not benefit themselves but benefit corrupt government at all levels. Sun Officials will implode one day and let the city have it....it is not a matter of if they will...it is a matter of when they will. Sun Officials are human and can only take so much of looking the other way while all this corruption takes place under their noses.

JQP,

I love to read and of course I read the article you recommended.

What makes you think my problem with Naperville and the State of Illinois is only pensions? I have been complaining about numerous wastes of taxpayer money both at the city and state level for 2.5 years on this blog site. Dozens and dozens of examples were given by me besides pensions.

Your attempt to call me disingenious is disingenious in itself!

California and Illinois both have deep rooted problems that are more similar than dissimilar.

California can be compared to Illinios. Illinois needs to learn from California. I believe that there is a good chance that the next FINANCIAL EARTHQUAKE will happen right here in mighty Illinois. Watch and see! The earth is already shaking. Do you really not feel it JQP?

Experienced,

Speaking of the memory of a peanut, you must not have followed what I have been proposing for months.

I don't have a problem with the City hiring Mr. Marshall. I have a problem with him receiving a pension while being gainfully employed. I have a problem with the system that you seem to be justifying. I believe you do work for the city to feel as you do and to have the very specific knowledge you do.

His police pension should be delayed till he truly retires. He should not be paid twice at the SAME TIME. I would like to see government pensions that are paid in full delayed till age 70. Just like Social Security.

I know the law allows this double dipping. And if your small brain would comprehend what I am saying, you would understand I am for reforming these corrupt laws so no one can double dip as if he is dipping a strawberry in chocolate. I used that phrase before so hopefully it will jog your failing memory.

Again, research and answer your own questions. I am not being paid to answer your questions. Plus you don't ask questions you already know the answers to just to try to be a smart-alic on this blog site.

By Taxes, Taxes and more Taxes on May 28, 2009 9:00 PM

Do you have the memory of a peanut or what? We already discussed the tax cap act and the pension fund contributions are not subject to the cap. Go back and look.

And, the Constitution itself gives the method for the home rule referendum. Therefore, no amendment would be necessary.

Oh, by the way, nice dodge from our discussion of the state constitution. But, you still have not answered how your solution would get around the provision of Article XIII, Section 5. Will your remedy require a constitutional amendment? If not, will your remedy only be applicable to new hires? If so, how will you fund the pensions for the current employees?

Taxes,

Nice dodge. Of course government pensions are a part of the problem in California. All state government spending is part of the problem, and pensions are a part of government spending. But they are only a small part of the overall problems that California is experiencing right now. The problems are systemic and deep-rooted, and the state would still be at a crisis point even if the pensions were fully-funded. Read the Economist article whose link I posted if you want to get an idea of how California arrived at its current impasse. To keep bringing up California to dry to drum up support for your Naperville anti-pension crusade proves you don't understand the situation in California; that, or you are being disingenuous.

-JQP

OK, let's look at the math behind the hiring of Bob Marshall as asst city mgr/interim city mgr to determine whether the city is paying more or less due to the fact that he is also receiving a police pension at the same time.

No matter whether Marshall is working now for the city or private industry or just plain retired, the pension fund is paying him a fixed amount that is 75% of his last salary. So, for the sake of a figure, let's say the amount of his last salary for the NPD was 100,000 and he is now receiving a pension of 75,000. That's a fixed amount.

Now let's say that the city pays Marshall as an asst city mgr $150,000. The cost to the City is the $150,000; plus the city's share of social security at 6.2% (9,000); plus the city's share of his medicare at 1.45% (2,175); plus the city's share of IMRF at an avg of 11.53% (17,295) or a total of $178,470. [Note: there will also be health ins. and life ins.]

Therefore, it costs the city this fiscal year (2009-10) $253,470 for Marshall.

Now, let's suppose that the city didn't hire Marshall and hired someone else just as qualified as Marshall to be asst city mgr. Marshall's pension remains the same (75,000). The city will still pay in salary and benefits $178,470 to hire an asst city mgr. Therefore, the city's outlay for Marshall's pension, and the salary and benefits for an asst city mgr remain $253,470.

The bottom line is that it costs the city no more or less to keep Marshall as asst city mgr as it would if they hired an equally qualified person to hold the position.

Now, the benefit to the US taxpayers of the city hiring Marshall as asst city mgr is that the money going into social security will never be paid to Marshall. Therefore his contribution and the city's contribution are going to fund social security benefits for the rest of us.

Hey Experienced,

If I had the money and writing skills of the Napergate Man, I would take ads asking the residents to strip home rule away from our municipality in a referendum.

Once you strip home rule, tax increases are limited to 5% or the CPI Index, whichever is lower. This year the CPI was .1%.

Once the city can not raise taxes, they can not feed these pension funds with 21.16% of our(taxpayers) matching funds.

The pension system will be destroyed. There would be no need for any constitutional amendment except in the figment of your imagination. If the police pension fund had to rely strictly on the 9.45% it collects from police officers, it would IMPLODE much quicker than if it could keep milking the taxpayers dry. The police would have a choice....either increase their contributions to 50% or settle for 25% pension pay-outs for retirement. They would have to decide basically if they want their money now or later. It would be up to them and that is fine with me. I hope they vote themselves a 100% pension as long as they fund it THEMSELVES with no taxpayer assistance. I promise I would have no jealousies if they can do it on their own without taxpayer subsidization.

Many cities have switched between home rule and non-home rule without amending the constitution. I gave many examples in prior posts about a year and a half ago.

And who is talking about the constitution here. Are you telling me when California legislatures decided to increase their pensions from 75% to 100% they repealed the constitution. They legislature simply voted and it happened. When cities near San Francisco decided to increase the pensions of their POs and FFs from 75% to 90%, before they filed bankrupcty or were near the edge of bankruptcy, they did NOT amend the state constitution. They simply voted in the majority. This is not rocket science. You can read about it when it happens in print newspapers or on the internet. Links have been published on this blog site regarding these California cities.

The idiotic council members in those cities simply voted to increase pensions from 75% to 90% because they believed the 2000 tech bubble was real and money was growing on Cali Trees. Now, I am no law professor or constitutional law expert, but common sense indicates if a city council can giveth, a city council can also taketh away.

And if you know the answers to your own questions, please provide them to the bloggers and don't ask them of ME. This is not the Wheel of Fortune. It is the Naperville Potluck the last time I checked.

I think California has a great system to control government waste.

Tax increases have to be approved by two thirds of the population.

If we here could vote, how many of us would vote an 11% increase in taxes so we can allow City Officials like Asst. City Manager Robert Marshall to double dip?

Not me!

By Taxes, Taxes and more Taxes on May 28, 2009 1:45 PM

You are fully aware that the legislature makes the laws and can change the laws.

********

For the final time, laws are not written in concrete. They can only be interpreted by the judicial branch but they can be CHANGED at WILL by the legislative branch.

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Nope, you are absolutely wrong. The constitution is the will of the people of the state. It is the supreme law. The legislature cannot change it without the OK of the people. I don't care about California. I don't know if they have a similar provision. In Illinois since 1970, pension rights by the constitution cannot be diminished or impaired once an employee joins the fund. The only way around it would be to amend the constitution which is not an easy or fast process. The constitution CANNOT be changed at the will of the legislative branch. I take it that you studied the constitution in high school. Whether we are talking about the federal or state constitution the legislature cannot change it without going to the people for ratification.

So, I ask you again, will your remedy require a constitutional amendment? If not, will your remedy only be applicable to new hires? If so, how will you fund the pensions for the current employees?

JQP,

Where do you think the 21.16% in matching funds for PO anc FFs pension funds comes from?

It comes from taxes. Same thing in California!

It is all related and interwoven togther directly and indirectly.

I posted LA Times quotes right on this blog site stating pensions in California will be tackled to reduce taxes.

I write enough detail on this blog site. Do you expect me to detail the entire pension system for you and its exceptions?


Marilyn Monroe

Taxes,

Sigh! Again, pensions have almost nothing to do with California's problems. Moreover, of the six ballot measures that Californians voted on last week, not one of them had to do with pensions. Finally, while 100% pensions are theoretically possible in some state occupations in California, they are rare---you have to retire after age 62, and have 40 years of experience.

For those who are interested, this article gives a good explanation of why things are so messed up in California.

-JQP

The real reason why Marilyn, AKA Taxes or whatever multiple personality she is these days is mad is because she has lost all her money while others are not in the same position. Maybe less time on the computer and more time earning a living yourself would add up to you not worrying about what others may have. If cops and fireman have easy jobs, which we know that is what you think then why on earth didnt you sign up???

By Experienced on May 28, 2009 7:31 AM
Taxes, Taxes and more Taxes

Please discuss how Article XIII, Section 5 of the State Constitution affects your proposed remedy to the pension problem. Will your remedy require a constitutional amendment?


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You are fully aware that the legislature makes the laws and can change the laws.

California made similar laws giving their public employees 100% pensions. They finally realized the money was not there. They asked the taxpayers to vote on a referendum to see if they were willing to take it up the wazoooo a little more. The taxpayers said NO more taking it up the wazoooo. The referendum was defeated about a week ago and I believe I posted links to or quotes from the LA TIMES.

They made the politicians take it up the wazoooo in the amount of an 18% salary reduction. The poliiticans are now meeting in California to decrease pension pay-outs for themselves and other state employees. They have no choice but to change the laws. Money does not grow on trees. A state can pass a stupid law giving each resident one million dollars. Sooner or later the state will realize it passed a stupid law and rescind it. A stupid law was passed for pensions pay-outs. Stupid laws were passed allowing legal double dipping such as in the case of former Capt. Robert Marshall now employed as an Asst. City Manager. These laws can be changed and will or else we as a STATE will begin failing as California has failed. Obama refuses to bail California out. Kudos to him for finally letting some entity fend for itself. I wish he would let GM fend for itself instead of handing it 50 billion of taxpayer money. The D$MN company only has a 1 billion dollar capitalization on the stock market and is less less than .01% of the value of the S @ P 500. Let it fold and file bankruptcy and get reorganized without taxpayer relentless infusions.

You like to play dumb on this blog site, Experienced. You are an intelligent person who needs to be participating in developing solutions instead of playing dumb and dumber all the time. You remind me of Jim Carrey in that movie Dumb and Dumber. In real life he is a very intelligent person like yourself. So please stop acting on this site and get real. I am tired of your acrobatics.

For the final time, laws are not written in concrete. They can only be interpreted by the judicial branch but they can be CHANGED at WILL by the legislative branch.

I have no doubt you know all this basic information. So please stop playing DUMB and DUMBER on this blog site. I have no doubt you are an intelligent man even though the Moderator has not yet designated you as so. If you start acting intelligent, I am sure you will be designated as an INTELLIGENT MAN not only by ME but also by the Moderator.

Bla, Bla, Bla,

I never said the police or fire fighters were breaking the law.

I stated that the laws in place that were written and approved by legislatures who are also getting Big Fat Pensions are the root cause of the insanity.....are the root cause of the greediness.

Corrupt laws have been put in place to allow former Capt. Robert Marshall of the NPD to retire at about age 52 while mentally and physically healthy(runs marathons), and obtain an executive position as an Asst. City Manager from the same taxpayers who fund and subsidize his pensions. And then to add insult to injury, he is allowed to begin vesting into a new pension fund in which he qualifies for a second retirement pension at the SAME taxpayers expense of whom I am one after only 8 years. The man can retire with 2 pensions at age 60 at taxpayer expense. While technically he is not breaking the law, he is abusing and using the system to his advantge. He is using and abusing the taxpayers. He is giving it to us up our wazooooos while we struggle with our devastated retirement funds. I am shocked this is not a front page article in the Naperville Sun. Is Mr. Marshall on the Board of Directors of the Naperville Sun for Sun Officials to be fearful of exposing this LEGAL IMPROPRIETY?

If you guys don't see that these laws are CORRUPT, I think you all have loose screws that is allowing government to screw you up the wazooooo. Keep letting your government screw you. I don't want to be screwed up the wazooooo anymore. I had more than I can handle. I intend to fight back and will no longer submit.

Taxes –

Just who do you think you are to tell someone what topics they can post on? I must have missed where Chris got a new assistant at The Sun, Junior Editor in Charge of Censorship.

You can allege and search for bias all you want, but you have no idea what you’re talking about. I am not my brother’s keeper. His profession doesn’t influence my opinions on this topic one bit. I don’t know what he makes now, what he stands to earn in retirement, nor do I care. I do believe, however, that while a career in public service will provide his family with a comfortable living; his choice means that he sacrificed a more lucrative career in the private sector to do a job he loves. I’ve never met anyone who loves his job and loves to serve others more than my brother does.

The many men and women who serve us in the NPD and NFD chose a career doing things we wouldn’t dream of doing. Those who serve us have chosen a career which takes them away from their families at all hours and on many government holidays, religious holidays, graduations, and other important dates. They’ve chosen a career running into burning buildings to make sure you and your family are safe. They’ve chosen a career picking up the pieces after you smash your car. They’ve chosen a career of responding in case you need medical attention or protection. They’ve chosen a career cutting bodies out of wrecks or picking up the body parts when someone steps out in front of a train. They serve us because that’s their chosen career, not because of “Big Fat Pensions” as you call them.

You seem well versed in my past writings so I assume you’ll also recall that I support pension reform, but not the draconian measures some have called for in the past (probably you under a different name). A two-tiered system seems the best answer to me. Keep the current system for those who were hired under it, in essence promised it. Then hire new employees on a 401K-based retirement system or even a hybrid of much lower pensions combined with a 401K component.

What I said about some of the criticism of those who serve us was “…some of the criticism appears to range from jealousy of the police and fire benefits to outright hatred of those who serve us”. So first of all, I said “some” and not all. I also said there was a range of apparent reasoning for the criticism. You seemed to fall under the jealousy part of the range for your numerous “Big Fat Pension” comments but if you want to self-relate to the “hatred” end of the range, who am I to tell you otherwise?

If you want to debate and exchange ideas, I’m all for that. If you want to twist words, control the threads, or try to dictate who posts on what topics; then I think you have some serious issues and I see no need to respond any more.

T.B.

Taxes, Taxes and more Taxes

Please discuss how Article XIII, Section 5 of the State Constitution affects your proposed remedy to the pension problem. Will your remedy require a constitutional amendment? If not, will your remedy only be applicable to new hires? If so, how will you fund the pensions for the current employees?

SECTION 5. PENSION AND RETIREMENT RIGHTS
Membership in any pension or retirement system of the
State, any unit of local government or school district, or
any agency or instrumentality thereof, shall be an
enforceable contractual relationship, the benefits of which
shall not be diminished or impaired.

How are the police and fire pensions greedy? It's a State of Illinois Pension Law? Correct? Are the police and fire pension's demanding more than the law?

Are they?

Bla, Bla Bla,

The city has always been making significant contributions to the pension funds of the police and fire fighters.

All you have to do is look at your real estate tax bills the last 10 years. Hopefully, you saved yours as I saved mine.

What are the appropriate amounts you want? 75% of matching contributions paid for by the taxpayer. Since return on investment in the stock market was about ZERO since 1997, you need a 75% contribution from whatever source to make a 75% pensions pay-out.

A little less if you can get a 3 or 4% of a return on your money wiithout losing it. So if the police and fire fighters pay under 10%, you want us taxpayers to pay 65% per year in matching contributions to make this corrupt pension system work....to continue to allow more Robert Marshalls to double dip into the system like it was a chocolate coated strawberry that was double dipped. No thanks!

What some bloggers like you don't seem to understand is that the taxpayers are tired of taking it up the wazoooooo. They feel 21.16% is too much. They wanted it to be 2% in line with corporate matching contributions. Maybe even ZERO as most corps reduced to zero when this economic downfall began.

The reason the pension system is broke is not because the City of Naperville has not contributed its fair share. It did more than that. It is because the police and fire unions are greedy and want more than the taxpayers can afford to give them. It is really that simple.

By Taxes, Taxes and more Taxes

The alleged deficit is due to the City of Naperville not contributing appropriate amounts in the past. They contributed the minim allowed and perhaps if they contributed the recommended amounts in the past it wouldn't be in a deficit or as big of a deficit. I'm all for cost savings but if the City of Naperville by delaying the correct contributions caused more spending. Saving a dime to spend ten dollars. I blame the elected officials.

The police and fire pension systems are governed under State Law. The City of Naperville has nothing to due with the police and fire pensions other than make the appropriate contributions. The pensions are not managed by the City of Naperville which is probably for the best. I don't trust our elected officials to make a decision let alone with anymore money.

I blame our wonderful City Council not the police and fire as you should.

TB,

Your brother is a fire figther. So you are biased since a member of your family is receiving a Big Fat Pension at taxpayer expense.

When the market was booming last year, the taxpayers paid 21.16% in matching contributions for our dear fire fighters. How could you dare say the city did not pay enough?

Civilians are lucky if their employers contribute 2% in matching funds. (Since the bust, most are contributing Zero.) We did almost 11 times that and you are saying maybe we did not do enough. Give me a break. That was last year when the stock market was booming.

Let us see how much we contributed this year with a failing stock market. Hopefully, CM Bob will tell us as he did last year soon, since the fiscal year ended April 30, 2009.

Again if a fire fighter pays 9.45% of his average salary of 90k for 30 years, how the h$ll do you expect him to receieve 75% of the highest and final salary of 120k or 90k each year for about 40 years with no growth in the stock market in nearly a decade. The numbers simply don't add up. Stop being in denial and blaming it on the City of Naperville. Blame it on the police and fire unions who want Big Fat Pensions. They are self destructing just like GM and Chyrsler employees self destructed and will lose most of their retirement pensions.

It is really best not to blog when you have a conflict of interest issue on a subject matter.

There is no jealousy of the police and fire benefits as long as they produce them on their own. I object to subsidizing them to ridiculous amounts only to find despite all these 21.16% contributions they have dug a hole of 61.4 million for themselves.

Now you must understand, TB, while we increased our contribution to 21.16%, the deficit did not decrease. It in fact increased 9.7 million in one year. And you want to give them more than 21.16%. Please give me a break. Have your IRS Dad go audit them and see if he can trace the money and how it is allocated? I bet he will declare the system broken and unfixable. Seriously!

I do agree with you about all the other city waste. But this has nothing to do with the pensions. The other city waste should be stopped and the money returned to the taxpayers....not inserted in the police and fire pension funds so the POs and FFs can get even fatter Big Fat Pensions.

Again, before blogging on this issue please issue a full disclosure that you are biased because your brother is a FF benefitting from this same exact corrupt pension system that Naperville FFs benefit from. I know he does not work in Naperville but a nearby suburb possibly Downers Grove. At least they don't give promotions and raises like Lisle-Woodridge right before they retire their finest. Or I should say I don't know of any such cases regarding DG.

How dare you call this "outright hatred" of those who serve us? That is a very slimy statement by you. This is about watching our tax dollars and getting out of this $61.4 million deficit that gets worse by the year.

I want to keep my tax dollars for my own retirement. I think the police and fire fighters need to fend for their own retirements out of their own contributions just like the civilians. This is not about hatred. It is about sanity.

Name one American Corporation that gives its employees 21.16% in matching contributions. I bet you a 100 dollars you can not name even one. Do you see the insanity of all this with all due respect, TB?

Bla Bla Bla –

I agree with you on the police and fire pension issue. A large part of the problem is that the city failed to pay more than the minimum required during the “good” times when money was rolling into the city coffers. And the city seems to have some odd priorities as this problem is left to fester yet we can fund an ugly bell tower, a huge new public works building, a test track for new cars, a Culture (slush) fund to subsidize charities, and parking decks we don’t need or want. Did I miss anything?

I’ve also noticed that there’s often quite a bit of opposition here to the very idea of competitive police and fire pensions and salaries. While there is good input regarding the looming pension bill the city has set itself up for, some of the criticism appears to range from jealousy of the police and fire benefits to outright hatred of those who serve us. Where does this animosity come from?

T.B.

Blah, Blah, Blah,

I am also not Naper-Watch. I missed that post so thanks for pointing it out.

I guess more than one blogger on this site is upset with police and fire fighter abuse of the system.

Your apologies are accepted once again.

Blah, Blah and mor Blah,

The taxpayers have been paying 21.16% of salaries in matching contributions. More then twice what POs and FFs pay. So you must be misinformed.

The city and taxpayers have been very generous to the POs and FFs.

Do the simple math:

9.45% of 90,000 times 30 years is not enough to pay 75% of 120,000 for 40 years. That is the basic problem. Most 6th graders understand the math behind that. Apparently, you are clueless!

You need 25-30% returns on your investments to make this possible.

The stock market just a month ago hit the lows of 1996. That means not a penny was made in 13 years. With no returns for so long how do you expect the above formula to pan out. It won't. That is the problem. Don't blame City Hall which is taxing the residents up the wazoooooo so police and fire fighters can live in McMansions when they retire at age 52 while they are still running marathons

Half the population works on weekends and holidays to make the other half happy. So police and FFs can not be given credit for that. They get other days off. And they get OT while most civilians working in restaurants and bars do not get OT on holidays.

Thanks for apologizing in advance as I am not Anonymous.

Who are you Blah, Blah, Blah??? The 3 Stooges all wrapped up in one package....

Taxes,Taxes and more Taxes, naper-watch'r and Anonymous which I believe are the same person. If you are not I apologize.

Find something else to complain about. If you think the police and fire are over paid, too bad. Would you work a variety of different hours? Do you want to work holidays, weekends, family events and deal with things nobody else even wants to acknowledge exist?

No, I am not a policeman or a fireman. I am somebody that looks at the whole picture. I believe the police and fire pay almost 10% of their salary to their respective pension funds. The State of Illinois Pension Law requires that the respective municipalities contribute to the funds. The law requires that the fund be at a certain percentage. The City of Naperville has provided the minimal required by law to the fund annually. The City of Naperville has paid the minimum for years even though they have at times have had at a surplus.

If the City contributed money at the correct time, I don't believe the funds would have a deficit. Naperville's Police and Fire Pensions are in alot better shape then many others. The police and fire funds are under funded due to a lack of responsibility on the City's part, not the police and fire.

If the City didn't have to pay millions to fight a frivolous lawsuit maybe it would have the money to fund it's pensions. The City of Napervile spends more money on items like a under funded tower, decorative street lights, a bridge and parks then it spends on what they should spend.

Blah Blah Blah

The Omnia Performing Arts Center is a PRIVATE concept that includes a performing arts center and mixed-use development.


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If this is true, I have no problem with Omnia.

If they want this PRIVATE project guaranteed by City Officials as I suspect, I will be hollering and screaming about Taxes, Taxes and more Taxes.

If they ask for a single penny of taxpayer money I will accuse them of lying after stating they are a PRIVATE concept. A private concept is NOT a subsidized concept supported by government.

I will be watching since I do not expect the Naperville Sun to be watching. Hopefully, the taxpayers will be watching with me and encouraging the Sun to perform its watchdog duties to protect the taxpaying residents from the drunken sailors running and ruining City Hall.

About Naperville: Located 28 miles west of Chicago, Naperville, IL, is home to approximately 145,000 people. With ready access to a variety of transportation, housing and employment options, this booming suburb attracts thousands of new residents each year, making it one of the fastest growing communities in the United States.


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Anonymous,

This is a falsehood from the link you provided. The City of Naperville is obviously in denial that it is no longer one of the fastest growing communities in the United States. We have less than 1% growth and no longer rank in the top 100.

I guess this is the sugar coated propaganda that they feed us to justify retaining the growth personal at City Hall in order to help them reach their 30 years of employment and collect their BIG FAT PENSIONS at our(residential taxpayer) expense.

Let us hope the Naperville Sun can see through these lies by City Hall and not give them lip service.

It is time the Naperville Sun held the City of Naperville responsible for their lies. I just published one right off their own web site that was put up recently. No one can deny that is a BLATANT LIE! How our shameful that our CITY would lie in such a manner.

I will continue to educate the residents as to what is casuing their city taxes to go up 11% annully or doubling evey 6.5 years. It is this waste like keeping growth employees including inspectors on the pay roll. As I said, ship them to Plainfield as they will be needed there when the market rebounds, if it rebounds and the banks are willing to make Big Fat Loans all over again. I doubt they will be that stupid again. Plainfield may never experience the past growth of Naperville as banks are not ready again for the pain inflicted by loose loans awarded by loose shoe bank executives to anyone who does NOT qualify.

Anyway, there will no more significant growth in Naperville. Let us smell the java beans just for once. What do you say King Arthur George?

As a result of a different story in this morning Sun I had reason to venture over to the City of Naperville web site and I stumbled across a public notice that OMNIA is back at it again, ref http://www.naperville.il.us/dynamic_content.aspx?id=12210

No follow-up reporting on this previously contentious community issue?

Anonymous,

I have been reading the Naperville Sun for decades. I always felt it was a mouth piece for City Hall. I always felt it was spoon fed by City Hall and the Police Dept.

In my opinion it never does any investigative reporting which has caused its readership to decline. The internet is a great factor also.

The Napergate Man was able to do investigative reporting and in essence run a newspaper within a newspaper using Napergate Ads. I don't recall him having a journalism degree. I recall him owning about a half dozen businesses and somehow making time for investigative hard hitting reporting.

While I am no expert, I believe if he can do it the Sun can do it. I think he had the will. The Sun in my opinion does not have the will. Or maybe they don't have the courage to tackle City Hall.

They always claim they don't give a hoots about City Hall but are obviously frightened to death to take them on. They complement City Hall day and night in their articles. It almost feels like a fiefdom in Naperville with everyone obeying the King Arthur George's orders.

In my opinion, the Sun should call the Napergate Man and see if he is interested in buying the newpaper. It should not cost a whole lot as most people realize all newspapers will be shut down in less than a decade. They are a waste of ink, paper, gas and time in this modern age. Once the 60 and 70 year olders who are stuck in their ways pass away, no one will be interested in a newspaper except the Museums of History.

Chriss Magee,

Come on! Let's be totally honest with your readers here. Media stories are printed all the time without confirmation. All that it takes is a disclaimer to simply state that the school and police have been uncooperative in helping to confirm THEIR SIDE of the facts. And I do want to point out that their side is but only one side and if they have done something wrong then we may have to take their side of the story with a grain of salt. Regardless, if the school and police are not being cooperative and attempt to thwart freedom of the press then let the school and police take the heat they deserve for any attempts to stifle information about something that happened in our community.

Even in a story such as this the "authorities" are not the only ones who hold key information or the ability to confirm. In the incident at hand there is at the automobile owner, the automobile insurance company, the store/business the vehicle struck, the property owner, the driver of the vehicle, other passengers of the vehicle, other eye witnesses to what happened, etc. etc. as just a few people who would actually possess factual information as to what happened.

If the Naperville Sun needs to sit around and wait for the "authorities" to confirm everything there would be little news to report plus I can only imagine how our local "authorities" would use something like "lack of confirmation" as an excuse to keep or needlessly delay an awful lot of information away from the public. Chris, I really hope you understand that from a freedom of the press perspective it is both peculiar and alarming for a newspaper to defend the lack of news coverage based upon lack of confirmation by the authorities. The entire concept of freedom of the press is to prevent any level of government from interfering or manipulating the press for goodness sake!

Let's face it the real problem is weekend newspaper logistics. There is no Saturday edition. Sunday is printed up ahead of time as is most of the Monday edition. Ninety percent of the time the Monday edition isn't worth reading anyway. There had long been a big gap in reporting local news that happens over the weekend and this is nothing new to anyone who has been reading the Sun for any period of time. Maybe the Sun would be better off discontinuing the Monday edition and using the resources it takes to pump out six editions a week to do a better job five editions a week?

Nice rip on the WIU campus,yea that's way to EXPRESS your opinion. Interesting with all the police and DUI talk NOT a SINGLE blogger mentioned the DUI sarge's case. Let's talk about that! A homeless man gets dozens of quips; but none will address that problem with NAPER COPS LYING. If your serious about CLEANING up the town,let's start in the police dept. DL's for illegals so that they can WORK in N'ville.Not a gripe was pitched. How about posting the officers salary [all of them] right here soon Can anyone do that? The pension bomb is a REAL threat,some have addressed that issue right here. The police continue to refuse REFORM. How does Dial stand on IRC points. oh wait ---no comment. People wake up or another FEDERAL lawsuit will soon appear,that's a PROMISE. And don't complain this time- we asked and begged for years.

Here's another topic...
Why does the Naperville Sun seem to pick and choose topics that they report on? There was an incident last week in the south end of Naperville where an unlicensed teen was supposedly taken out of school during the school day by an adult that was not her mother, who was supposedly drunk, let the girl drive her car, and the girl drove into the Excel Driving School office at Book Road and 95th Street.
Why would a situation such as this not be newsworthy? I would think it would be for several reasons. Number one being that an adult (supposedly a DRUNK adult) was allowed to sign out a teenage student from the Neuqua Gold Campus who was not her child. Shouldn't the school be checking authorizations? Isn't that why we fill out the multiple forms each year when we register? Second of all, a non-licensed driver caused property damage and potential injury.
Can anyone explain the Sun's arbitrary reporting procedures? I doubt they didn't know about it since traffic came to a halt in that area due to all of the emergency vehicles.
Just wondering.

If it was that easy to run Daeschner off with just a little bit of whining I would have to say... good job and good riddance! Fact is if there were no headaches we could pay anybody $50K to babysit the super job. Daeschner was supposed to be collecting the big bucks because he had the talent to solve the headaches. Truth be known someone with a mail order degree probably could have done a more remarkable job.

It is ugly, that is not whining, it's a fact.

You people crack me up. There is absolutely no satisfying you when it comes to the new school.

It's too expensive. It's too far away from my home. It will make my little darlings sit next to children from less desirable neighborhoods. And now, we get the complaint that it's too ugly.

What a bunch of whiners. No wonder Daeschner is pulling up stakes. Who would want to deal with these kinds of headaches?

Why shouldn't Metea Valley also be an ugly school building? This school district has decades of experience building really ugly, uninviting and institution like buildings. Ever since the kick-off with WVHS in the mid-70's the school board has constructed one ugly building after the other. There isn't one singularly beautiful school building in the entire district. There isn't one architecturally significant building in the entire district.

Fact is if you want to pay top dollar for a crap design and crap construction no one other than a branch of government can do it better. The government has truly made building expensive, ugly buildings an art form. Anything the government builds the private sector can do for half the price, with higher quality, and a faster delivery date. The government has repeatedly demonstrated it's incompetence and inability to build government buildings of any kind in a competitive and cost effective manner. It is time we privatized the entire government building program from road construction on up.

anonymous on May 22, 2009 9:10 PM,

Sadly what more can we expect? Whoever is sitting on the school board for a four year term gets to vote and make a decision that will last for decades after everyone realizes that both they and the architect had little taste and little aesthetic vision.

Don't blame SD204 too much as they are not the only school board with board members lacking in vision or good taste. Just look to the east at SD203 who think putting some lipstick on a pig will do some good and history will judge them just as harshly.

For a community with good sense and good judgement we only have to look to Glenbard or York Township to see that it is actually possible to build a school building that will stand the test of time.

Ummmm...isn't Metea costing over one hundred million? I may be wrong, if so my bad. That is a budget price? Didn't Oswego East cost 31 million? That was much of my point, the cost difference.

I was by there again today with no construction traffic. It looked even worse. My 20 and 21 year old kids with me. We all agreed, awful.

I have read, several times in this blog, complaints from other taxpayers that we are building schools that look like McMansions. Complaints that we are spending too much money on the look of the schools and not on function.

Now comes Metea High School.... A school built with function in mind and now complaints about looks....

You can have both function and looks, but it costs money !! With todays budgets and costs, make up your mind what you want and stop complaining.....

Anonymous 5/22 9:10, I have to admit that I never found any school to be inviting, and viewed most as little more than prisons...for children. Of course, in my day there was a lot more discipline and respect for the guards and warden...er...teachers and principal. Maybe the kids there will learn a little better if they are not taken in by sweeping architectural designs.

Now for something old and something new...topic, that is.

I drove by Matea (SP?) today and was frankly shocked. I don't often go that way up Eola. As I recall, people were dissing Oswego East (Built for what 31 million? I can't remember) because it looked like a prison.

Well, I tell you. The construction is quite far enough along at the new high school on Eola to see what it will look like. I do design, photography, catalog photography, environmental photography, architectural photography for catalogs, print, web, multi-media and such, I know a little about design, marketability and how to make something feel inviting. This new high school doesn't make it as "modern", not enough innovation or clean lines. This new high school doesn't make it as "prairie", not even close. This new high school looks cold and uninviting. It looks like a selection of warehouses clumped together. Nothing welcoming whatsoever. Black brick, black windows, raw sienna concrete (baby poop brown). Nothing I would put my name on, no design that will stand the test of decades of time. What are y'all getting for your 140 million? A prefab pre-poured concrete look? Huge classroom trailers pushed together? Wow.

Two of my step children graduated from Western IL U. I thought that campus was the most depressing place I had ever been. Black dorm buildings with suicide bars on the windows. square, nondescript buildings, awful landscaping, scruffy and brown. Cold and uninviting. I had the same feeling driving by the Matea site today, coming and going. Oswego East may look like a prison, but cost it 1/4 of what you all are paying in Aurora/Naperville and I just do not see an improvement for dollars spent with what you were provided for classic, timeless design.

It just occurred to me what it also reminds me of...the current NCHS, all hodge podged together, just more of it! I hope 203 isn't spending as much on NCHS with the same hodge podge results that they have now, just more of it living larger.

T.B.,

Very well said and spoken.

I could not agree with you more.

It is ridiculous to expect a bartender to monitor each and every patron he is pouring a drink for. A bartender can pour 300-600 drinks in one evening.

Sometimes he is pouring non-stop on a Friday and Saturday.

And some people expect him to know if you drove, walked, if you have an empty stomach, what your muscle mass is, your tolerance, if the next 24 ounce of beer will knock you out, etc. etc. etc.

This is all nonsense.

As TB said take personal responsibility for your drinking. Understand your judgmenrt will be impaired from alcohol and you will make bad decisions.

When you go to a bar you must know what your limit of tolerance is and stop one drink short of your limit. One drink short of being .08. Two drinks short if you are going to get behind the wheel.

When I go out I plan on having 2 drinks period. If I was out for a long time on a full stomach, I will have 3 drinks. Never more!

And I have been driving myself for decades and never got a DUI and will never get one. Of course I have been stopped numerous times but I have always taken and passed my street sobriety tests with flying colors. It is a great feeling to have one less drink and prove to the officer he is wasting his time.

If an officer stops you and you had 3 drinks, only admit having one drink. Don't say you were not drinking because he can smell the alcohol on your breath even if you just took a mint. If you are stupid enough to tell him you had 4 or 5 drinks he can arrest you based on your statement in some circumstances.

And remember there is zero tolerance for under 21, so if you are under 21, don't be a fool and ever drink and drive...not even one ounce of beer. It will cost you up the wazoooooo!

here's a crazy thought, how about the individual takes responsibility for the amount they drink?

Easy enough to check out if it is Adolph or Arthur... just look up the birth certificate.

The bottom line is you’re responsible for your own actions. You can blame the bars for serving alcohol and you can blame the cops for pulling you over, but if you’re drunk and driving you have nobody to blame but yourself.

0.08 is a pretty low threshold and I wouldn’t expect the bars to know who drove, who walked, and who has a designated driver. Can’t we just get back to the days of personal responsibility? How long have we been in this mode where everyone else is to blame for our problems?

T.B.

Liz,

A liquor licensee is not allowed to sell alchohol to a minor or a drunk. That is both state and city law and/or ordinance.

Determing who minors are with near 100% certainty is possible. The owner of Extra Value Liquors a/k/a the Napergate Man proved that when he went on a vicious campaign to arrest minors in the 1990s and arrested them by the 100's. I believe he still does but quietly.

Determing who is about to become intoxicated is a very gray area.
It is not easy to determine who is about to become drunk and who is sober and will remain sober

The City of Naperville allows a bartender to sell a 24 ounce glass of beer to anyone. So if s/he sold a 24 ounce beer to a 110 pound girl she would be fine. If she bought a second 24 ounce beer which is lawful while sober, that second 24 ounce beer could easily knock her out. How can you blame the bartender? Blame the city of Naperville that allows the sale of 24 ounces of beer in one glass at one time.

That is why bartenders are rarely charged for overserving. It is a very gray area. The girl was sober when she brought her 24 oz beer but was obviously drunk after she downed it especially if she had an empty stomach and very little muscle mass. Muscle absorbs alchohol much better than fat and keeps it out of the blood stream for longer periods of time and eventually sends it slowly into the blood and to the liver for oxidation preventing sudden intoxication.

Selling to a minor is not a gray area. The Naperville Police run sting operations on cigarette and liquor licensees and makes the appropriate arrests many times a year. The Naperville Sun sometimes writes articles about these stings and even tells us which establishments fail.

Of course speaking of stings, there was a 10 year battle between City Hall and the Napergate Man because he dared to run sting operations on his own employees. After the city wasted 10 million dollars fighting him in every court imaginable, both Federal and State Appellant Courts ruled he had every right to run stings on his employees in order to make sure his employees are not selling to minors and upholding the liquor ordinces of the City of Naperville. The city at that point surrendered and chose not to appeal to the Illinois Supreme Court and the U.S. Supreme Court.

As you can see the issue of especially non-packaged liquor sales is not black and white and will never be.

Features Bar in downtown has adopted the Napergate Man's Zero Tolerance Policy of fake IDs and are not only carding but confiscating fraudulent IDs and turning them into the Naperville Police.

Again determing who is sober is not so easy. Maybe the city of Naperville should reduce the portions from a maximum of 24 ounces to 12 ounces. At that point bartenders can make an evaluation after each 12 ounces instead of each 24 ounces and have a fighting chance not to sell to someone who may become intoxicated.

Huh?

Good point, Huh. I think the individuals have to be ultimately responsible.

If a guy approaches a bartender wobbling, 99.99% of bartenders will not sell to him or her. Selling to a drunk is a big headache for an establishment.

1.He may throw up at any minute.

2.He may fall asleep at any minute.

3.He may need a cab and the establishment will have to bear the cost as most drunks have no money left.

4.If they get in a car accident the liquor establishment has lots of liability.

5.A drunk is likely to get into an argument or even a fight. Why would any establishment want to deal with a fight?

6.And, and and and.....

Establishment have no interest in selling to drunks. A drunk chases good paying responsible drinking customers away.

Bartenders sell to sober people who at some point go over their limits. A 4th drink may be sold when there are no symptoms at all. After the 4th drink the patron may suddenly throw up. There is no way a bartender could know this. Especially if he came from another bar or if he buying from another bartender in the same bar on the opposite side.

The patron needs to be responsible and the police have a right to nail them on the streets. If a bar is found to selling to drunks deliberately, yes they should be shut down immediately. But bars don't sell to drunks. People become drunks and most bartenders do not know the point that will happen as it varies from person to person in a very unique manner. As I said muscle mass and emtpy stomachs are just 2 factors that affect sobriety.

To Huh?

As stated in my comment, I do not know the stipulations of the liquor license (if any) with regard to the obligations of the establishment who serves alcohol to patrons. I commented that if an establishment is breaking the laws of the licensing, then they should be warned, fined, or shut down accordingly. If there is no verbiage in the licensing holding an establishment from over-serving, then there is no law they are breaking.

Liz 2:16PM,

Are you suggesting each bar ask each patron if they are driving that night before they are served? Is that part of the Illinois otr Naperville code or do you want it added?

What if the person driving was not ever seen by the bartender? They were sitting at a table while friends made the beer runs. Would you then propose that each patron at each bar must get their own drink?

h

Trust me Moderator it is Arthur and not Adolph.

But he once told me he does not like his first name and likes George much better.

If you call for Arthur, he will turn his head. He still remembers it is his birthname even though it is not obviously his preference.

I also like George better than Arthur. We have been calling him George for so long I don't think we good ever get use to Mayor Arthur Pradel. It does not sound right. It does not have the right ring.

I agree that there are varying degrees of intoxication and there are several things that factor in to how one's system processes the alcohol.

I think if a police officer pulls over a driver who is obviously highly intoxicated and has recently left an establishment where s/he was served alcohol, then the establishment bears a portion of the responsibility for not cutting off the patron earlier. The ultimate responsibility will obviously always fall on the person drinking, but I don't think it takes an M.D. behind a person's name to know when someone is very intoxicated and should be flagged. The establishment should share responsibility in instances like this.

And if the police do enough back tracking, they will easily know which establishments over-serve as a practice, and they will be able to warn them,fine them, or shut them down if they are operating outside the guidelines of their liquor license.

Mayor Pradel's real first name is Arthur and not George.

I am sure the Naperville Sun can confirm this.

His fuill name is Arthur George Pradel.

I agree that there needs to be accountability from the establishment that serves an intoxicated person. There is also a school of thought that holds people responsible for their own actions, i.e. drinking yourself into a stupor is your own fault, not someone elses. I can see both sides,

Here is information from Wikipedia regarding Dramshop laws which are relevant to this discussion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dram_shop
Dram shop or dramshop is a legal term in the United States referring to a bar, tavern or the like where alcoholic beverages are sold. Traditionally, it referred to a shop where spirits were sold by the dram, a small unit of liquid.

Dram shop liability refers to the body of law governing the liability of taverns, liquor stores and other commercial establishments that serve alcoholic beverages. Generally, dram shop laws establish the liability of establishments arising out of the sale of alcohol to visibly intoxicated persons or minors who subsequently cause death or injury to third-parties—those not having a relationship to the bar, as a result of alcohol-related car crashes and other accidents.

The laws are intended to protect the general public from the hazards of irresponsibly serving alcohol to minors and intoxicated patrons.

The majority of states allow for recovery when the defendant knew (or should have known) the customer was intoxicated

Under Illinois' dram shop law, plaintiffs can recover after demonstrating:

1. proof of sale of alcohol to the patron;
2. Damages sustained by the Plaintiff;
3. proximate cause* between the alcohol sale and intoxication; and
4. that intoxication was at least one cause of the Plaintiff's damages.

*Proximate cause includes the legal requirement the dram shop must have been able to foresee that its actions could cause injuries to third parties, but this is true for any establishment that serves (sells) alcohol. One Illinois court allowed a lawsuit against a company that dropped off self-serve barrels of beer at a union picnic.

Dial is worried that Scott Huber will fire him one day,

You wrote: "In the remote chance Scott Huber succeeds Mayor Arthur George Pradel as Mayor, Police Chief David Dial wants to be on his right side." Arthur George Pradel? Are you sure? I heard it was Adolph George Pradel.

A bartender can serve a 120 pound girl 2 beers and she can be perfectly sober with good judgment, coordination and normal eyes.

Suddenly on the 3rd drink she could lose her judgment, coordination and develop red shot eyes. Almost in a split second. One extra shot sometimes can do it.

Another girl with a full stomach and more muscular body may be able to handle a 3rd drink. Muscles absorb alcohol much better than fat. How is a bartender to know your ratio of muscle to fat when you have your clothes on???

A bartender is not inside the mind and stomach of his patrons. Most do their best. No bartender knows your weight, when you last ate, your tolerance level, etc. etc. Only you know that and have to exercise responsibility.

Thus the patron needs to show responsibility and the police are doing the right thing by arresting the drunks on the road. No liquor establishment just tries to get everyone drunk. They cut people off all the time....sometimes it is just too late.

No need to second guess yourself, Liz. You were right the first time.

I don't know if it works the same now, but years ago the NPD used to pull over beaters late at night on a false pretense to get their DUI's. It made sense, as a lot of drunks drive around in beaters, and if you are out around 2am in beater in Naperville, you must be a drunk. Another of their tricks was to go 5mph under the posted limit and pull you over if you passed them, as you must be drunk to pass a police officer. I'm just glad I don't go to work at early hours anymore, because I got tired of being pulled over and lied to by the people sworn to serve and protect.

It would be unfortunate if it took a fatality to make the police department, city council, or an establishment with a liquor license to sit up and take notice, and do the right thing.

If a tragedy did occur, I would want to see the victim's family end up owning the establishment or take a financial bite out of the NPD or City. It wouldn't bring back their loved one, but hopefully it would be a deterrence to similar practices in the future.

Rambo, I see your point and it's a very good one. I also have to admit it's one I had not thought of before.

I don't know the stipulations of a liquor license in Naperville, but I would hope there would be some official verbiage regarding the responsibility that accompanies the grant of a liquor license. Otherwise, besides a clear conscience and a good moral fiber, what is to keep a barender in an establishment from lining up shots for a dollar a piece to anyone who can afford one? Patrons can get rip-roaring drunk and then turned out into the streets to try to find their way home... in their cars. I would hope there is some accountability on the establishment's part to operate responsibly, or they will risk losing the privilege of holding a license.

If the NPD knows a particular establishment doesn't follow the guidelines of their license and over-serves patrons, then they should absolutely go after the establishment and fine them, shut them down, or revolk their license. To do otherwise would be a disservice to the community they are supposed to serve and protect.

Politics can be a dirty and disgusting business and it's especially bad when the powers that be are willing to sell their souls to the devil for the sake of the almighty dollar.

Liz,

Most cities (Naperville is no different.) have strict ordinances and requirements when it comes to bars and liquor licenses regarding the safe and responsible dispensing of alcohol to customers. The people who are getting DUI tickets aren't coming to town with a cooler full of beer in their trunk, they're buying the booze from bars who serve people until they're so drunk they're stumbling in the streets and peeing in alleys. It would be much more proactive for the NPD to monitor and ticket the bartenders and owners who are irresponsibly serving alcohol instead of letting people get roaring drunk, drive home, and hope they catch them on the way out of town.

Why does the NPD do things this way? We're leading the state in DUI's, and each DUI can generate upwards of $10,000 in fines, fees, court costs, and other expenses. The city loses money by suspending the liquor license of bars that over-serve since they obviously can't collect taxes on liquor that isn't able to be sold. We're trading safety and potentially the lives of others to feed a well oiled DUI ticket writing money making machine.

It's really sad to think about, and if I lost a loved one to a drunk leaving downtown Naperville I'd be sure to get an answer from Chief Dial as to why he chooses to have his officers focus on DUI's instead of making sure bars are serving alcohol responsibly.

And you wonder why????

http://secondcity.com/?id=touring/theatricals/blago

I guess they feel he is guilty too before he has his day in court!

Why don't they just give him one parking spot inside the Chicago Ave. garage and let him pitch his tent. A corner location on the first or second floor would have 2 walls and a roof in addition to being a lot warmer in the winter and cooler in the summer.

But to let him expand his tent dwelling inch by inch day by day on a busy sidewalk is borderline insanity.

Scott Huber is not allowed to lie down. He must be in a sitting postion all day and night according to city ordinances. He does obey that ordinance. Maybe the city can make a deal and allow him to lie down if he agrees to camp inside the garage instead of outside the garage.

Chief David Dial needs to show some backbone and not worry about the consequences of future Mayor Scott Huber terminating him one day.


________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


PS. I am fully aware that one parking spot not factoring in the cost of land appraises for about 40,000 dollars. But what other options do we taxpayers and residents really have? Maybe we can get him to pay 2% of that 40k in real estate taxes. That is about 800 dollars a year. He may only be able to buy a lap top every other year instead of every year. But his gas costs will go down in the winter substantially due to the shelter provided from the 2 walls and roof over his head.

Maybe we can throw in a lamb and few goats so he can have a petting zoo in 2 other parking spots. That will be another 1600 dollars in real estate taxes. And since he has not showered in 4 years maybe we can let him have a parking spot to build a bathroom with running water. Maybe we can let him draw water from the fire hydrant for free like the hot dog man but we need another 800 dollars in real estate taxes for the 4th spot. In return for free water he must provide the hot dog man use of his bathroom since there are no portables in that area of downtown. The hot dog man can take his tent spot for one year while he is in his trial period. Then we will sell him a garage parking spot and begin collecting 800 dollars a year from him also. Just think of how much we can reduce the 61.4 million defict if we think out of the box. Hell let us get a purveyor in each parkig spot...who needs parking? We can park on the sidewalks just like Scott Huber!!!

In the end Mr. Huber will have 4 parking spots and paying 3200 dollars into the coffers of City Hall. He apparently is getting a Big Fat Pension from some government agency to be able to afford his lifestyle of high tech computers and generators without any employment. He also orders the best food money can buy in downtown Naperville.

Ken...yes I would say if the Boy Scouts did it there, but I thought you were just meaning a tent period. Maybe they should do it & see what happens? :-) Maybe those who are upset should start staying on the sidewalks for a while & see what happens.

"Please stop questioning Chief Dial's judgment. Maybe he screwed up in the Napergate Man case but he ain't screwing with candidate for Mayor, Scott Huber. He knows better. Chief Dial values his employment with the city of Naperville and will never do anything to endanger or jeopardize it. "

I think this is exactly a reason to question someone. If you have anyone who will do something bad to keep his or her job then they need to be out. IF that is the case with Dial then he needs to be out.

As far as those saying Huber will win, you are just comparing to who is in office now. You have no idea who else will run. I also agree with those saying those who pay their taxes etc are not likely to vote him in.

Then again you can't trust the voting society when they choose the wrong Idol! :-(

I don't think enforcing laws would be considered harrassment. Especially since Huber has been stationed outside the parking garage as long as he has. One would think it's about time that the police make him move along, issue a warning, or arrest him if he doesn't comply.

And Rambo, I think the fact that the NPD issue DUI's until their pens run out of ink is a sad commentary on our community and it attests to the fact that the NPD are doing a good job of trying to keep drunks off of the roads. Kudos to our officers!

Can you imagine the hell raised by people outraged that the NPD harassed a homeless man? There are always 2 sides to a story, no?

Well, as far as un-enforced ordinances are concerned, the NPD as a whole could give a damn about the smoking ban as well. How often do you see them standing around watching the massive packs of people huddling around the doors of bars and restaurants downtown? To the NPD, laws and ordinances are merely suggestions until someone complains loud enough to get them to do more than harass skateboarders and write DUI's until their pens run out of ink.

Maybe we need to campaign for a new police chief who would be more capable of enforcing laws/codes/ordinances in our town.
If Dial is unwilling and/or unable to move a non-violent vagrant and his mess off of public city property, what other responsibilities is he unable or unwilling to perform?

Should the Chief of Police be able to pick and choose which laws/codes/ordinances he and his staff enforce? Aren't they laws/codes/ordinances for a reason?

OWVY, if the Boy Scouts pitched their tents next to Huber's, I would be willing to bet any amount of money they would be booted out, unless they got a permit. Junk cars in people's yards are considered litter and removed by the city if the owner does not remove them. Why wouldn't Huber's tent on public property fall under the same laws?

Zoning laws would apply also. Same example, if the Boy Scouts tried to build a meeting hall on the sidewalk, you can bet that Dial or his minions would be there to stop them.

I don't really care if Huber is there or not, especially since I avoid downtown as much as possible. I just think it's interesting that the chief of police in a town the size of Naperville puts out the obvious lie that he can do nothing about it.

If Huber is truly interested in running for Mayor of Naperville, he is going about it the wrong way. I doubt hard-working, tax-paying voters are going to seriously consider someone for the position who doesn't work, doesn't pay taxes, doesn't own/rent property, and conducts himself the way Huber does. If he were truly homeless with no other options, I would feel true compassion for him. Instead, I feel compassion for someone so out of touch with reality that he sees this course of action as potentially successful 'campaigning' for a mayoral platform in a community such as Naperville.

I have read a few of Scott Huber's comments and feel sorry for him. This isn't the sort of person I would want, let alone even consider, holding the position of Mayor in this town. It would be a slap in the face to all who previously held the position, and all the hard-working, law-abiding, tax-paying citizens who would not vote for him.

Maybe he could be the Mayor of Elgin State or Linden Oaks.

Huber's got it made. He is physically and mentally capable of holding a job. He has strategically picked his spot. He used to live near the downtown train station where he got nothing but contempt from the hard working commuters who saw him. He knows that by setting up camp where he has he will get sympathy, money, food, clothing, a computer, camera and other stuff from the sympathetic but naive college students who pass by him during the school year, and from the rest of the well-heeled downtown visitors who pass him during the summer. He's not just hanging out on the sidewalk. He's constructed a dwelling complete with a generator, lights, heat, and other amenities not normally associated with being "homeless". He will be there until the city hears enough complaints about him to force them to take the actions required to make him go somewhere more appropriate.

I guess many of you do not understand that Scott Huber will be running for Mayor of Naperville in 2011. He already has his campaign literature in his tent. He showed it to me.

He even announced his candidacy on this blog site more than once.

In the remote chance Scott Huber succeeds Mayor Arthur George Pradel as Mayor, Police Chief David Dial wants to be on his right side.

In the next election it will be Scott Huber facing Dick Furstenau and Doug Krause. People will not vote for DF because he cost them 2 million dollars.

Doug Krause has already served over 20 years as a CM and failed in every Mayoral election. The residents simply are tired of him even though he is friendly and appears to be a nice guy. He agrees with anything you tell him. It gets him elected every CM election so he must know what he is doing. He does not care for principles which are apparently more important in a Mayoral election. He just wants you to hear what you want to hear.

This may allow Mr. Huber to win the next Mayoral election rather easily. He has a great location from where to campaign. He almost has a household name. Chief David Dial is doing the right thing by not rubbing him the wrong way. He is fully aware of how KARMA sometimes works and is taking every precaution necessary to maintain his throne on the premises of the Taj Mahal. He is a wise man doing the wise thing.

If Mr. Huber wins he might pitch a tent behind the Municipal Building which is not as visible or unsightly. Many people pitch tents along rivers. Maybe Huber can go fishing during his lunch break at City Hall. With a Mayor's salary of 25k he should be able to afford a much nicer tents and generator. Maybe he can even extend an electric cord from his office in City Hall to his tent outside. Who knows maybe he will decide to sleep on the sofa in his office at least during the extreme cold. You have to admit the man has courage to be able to tackle the vicious Chicago winters. How many of us have this kind of courage?

Please stop questioning Chief Dial's judgment. Maybe he screwed up in the Napergate Man case but he ain't screwing with candidate for Mayor, Scott Huber. He knows better. Chief Dial values his employment with the city of Naperville and will never do anything to endanger or jeopardize it.

Did it ever occur to you guys that the whole reason he sits down there is to get a rise out of people like you guys who are discussing various ways to get rid of him? He's homeless by choice, he has money to buy computers along with fuel his generator, has a cell phone, and can afford to eat take out from the local restaurants. If you ever make an attempt to talk to him instead of just averting your eyes as you walk by, he's not crazy at all, quite the opposite in fact.

He's basically trolling the city of Naperville and it's working really really well. I hope he stays there forever, especially after reading the comments from typical Naperville residents with entitlement complexes in Dial's article.

I have compassion for the homeless. Many homeless have more than one problem they are dealing with and many do not choose to be homeless.

There are also various degrees of mental illness and the police department are not experts at assessing or evaluating mental illness. I'm not so sure Huber has been evaluated recently for competency and that any medical or legal basis for competence has been made other than a police drive by evaluation. If Huber is incompetent then the court should appoint a guardian to be responsible for him.

There is also a point at which some things become a public nuisance and/or a public safety issue. For all practical purposes Huber is living in a parking garage. All structures have building and fire safety codes and a parking deck is not the type of occupancy that permits overnight accommodations. The fact that the city is allowing Huber to reside in a parking garage is a violation of city code.

What is also unknown is what Huber does inside his temporary "structure" as well as what kinds of materials are being stored within it. A parking garage should not permit any other uses which may pose an increased risk to either the vehicles or the occupants of the vehicles.

There are other legal recourses afforded to the city to deal with Huber IF THEY WANTED, as in this example it is clear that the city chooses to ignore Huber while violating their own code.

"Hot Dog" Too funny!

I, too, have often wondered how Huber was allowed to maintain his 'residence' on a public sidewalk for this length of time. I would imagine his tent wouldn't be considered 'temporary' after a period of time. And, if he is in the same location day-after-day then I would consider that long-term loitering.

I didn't see Dial's article on Huber but I can't imagine how he could say there is nothing the PD can do! If that's the case, do you think anyone could set up camp anywhere downtown just because we feel like it? Huber has refused help, so this is not a case of him having no other options. I don't think other residents are being 'cranky', I don't want the community we are taxed heavily to support to be brought down by a vagrant who does not contribute to the community. Plain and simple.

Did anyone else hear several gunshots early this morning in northwest Naperville?

Has anyone noticed that construction has started at Naperville North?

Has anyone noticed the construction crews have removed the chain link fence along Ogden Avenue?

Has anyone noticed all of the students cutting across Ogden Avenue going to and from school?

Why in the world did they take the fence down now with only a couple of weeks left until school is out?

Who in the world approved this plan and why?

Just a question for Ken...I don't know...

Wouldn't littering have some defintion that would not be a tent? Otherwise boyscouts camping would be littering? What else are you thinking is littering on his part?

And as for Zoning laws...wouldn't that have to be a permanent structure? I don't know? He is on public grounds so???

Now safety to others but if they are saying he is clear of obstructing others then...

Anyone go see The Soloist? Same issue in a way except Nathaniel Ayers actually is mentally ill. You can't even force the mentally ill to get help unless they are harming or attempting to harm someone but then that is just for a certain time period. Of course if harming someone there are two issues with this, the mental illness and then the criminal part if charges were made. This man Dial is speaking on does nto appear to be mentally ill nor harming anyone. You just don't like it. He isn't panhandling I don't believe and many do in Chicago.

Can Scott Huber somehow obtain a grill, apply for a permit, and begin selling hot dogs?

Dial believes in giving illegal aliens drivers licenses and will let bicycle riders break all laws without penalty, so why do you think he would stop people from building makeshift housing to live on downtown sidewalks. Just think if you lived on the sidewalk, you would not have to pay any outrageous taxes!

Anybody know anything about the homeless guy along Ogden who hangs most often at the Citgo station across from Grandma Sallys? Saw him there all winter. He lives outside and appears totaly demented! You can talk about laws all you want. No one should be allowed to simply live on the street. If we can have a president overtaking private business like this clown HA HA Obama does with litte challenge, how do you explain someone has the right to live on the street in one of the most wealthiest, progressive communities in Illinois, risking his health and safety?

Dial's column proved Dial is way out of touch with the reality of our town.

I mean, really ------ there's NOTHING he can do about it? What will he do if 30 or 50 of us decide to camp out downtown for the summer? Serve us dinner?

All in all, I am compassionate enough to know if the guy needs help he should get it. However, Dial was clear in writing that help has been offered and refused.

I would think his makeshift shack could be removed under current littering or zoning laws...

Regarding Bill Mego's commentary on Tuesday:

Bill has suggested that maybe they are not building more park benches for the band concerts nor are they considering installing permenant toilets because they want to use the grant money for planning/engineering consultants for a more grandoise future improvement. While I do not disagree I wonder if there is not another motive such as using the money to give themselves pay raises or hire more interns (ie: their kids on summer vacation).
Learned readers, I'm sure you could add many more scenarios.

T. B.
An interesting point, and thanks for noting it. I've often wondered about the situation as well, though I find it fairly hard to believe that there is nothing that can be done, legally. Wouldn't this be a clear cut case of vagrancy?
Truly, if it is that easy to squat on public land, wouldn't it be a great deal more common, both here and elsewhere in the state? maybe someone could explain this to those who once lived on Lower Wacker?
I've long assumed that there was some sort of 'fix' in this situation, though I could never guess what it might be. While I feel sorry for anyone who is homeless, by choice or no, I have to admit that this guy's continued presence is downright creepy, and hard to reconcile.
Surely something can be done? The answer simply cannot be 'there is nothing we can do'. The answer has to be 'there is nothing we're willing to do' for whatever reason that might be.

Did anyone else catch Chief Dial’s Sun article yesterday on Scott Huber, the homeless guy camped out in front of the Chicago Ave garage?

Am I the only insensitive and politically incorrect person thinking that there’s still something wrong with this situation? Granted, Huber doesn’t deny access to the garage or the sidewalk, but I’m still dumbfounded as to how he can be allowed to stay there. And Chief Dial even acknowledged that Huber’s starting to take up more and more space with his makeshift home/tent/encampment.

By Chief Dial’s reasoning that Huber’s not doing anything illegal, what’s to stop more and more homeless people from moving in as long as they stay out of the way and on public land? Won’t they all just camp out here?

We have an anti-cruising ordinance for drivers, we can’t park on city streets at night, but this guy can live on our sidewalks? What’s wrong with this situation?

T.B.

P.S. Yes, I now officially feel old and cranky.

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