After carefully reviewing every single comment on this blog, I have come to only one conclusion:

RAISE the INCOME TAX !!!! It is sorely needed in Illinois to just maintain.

JQP,

It is really very understandable why you have nothing to say.

I am just a guy who tells it as it is....with no salt, pepper or butter.

If that makes me amazing...so be it.

Your lack of words indicates to me you understood fully what I said.

May God Bless You! I wish you nothing but the best.

Taxes,

I don't know what to say. You are truly amazing....and not in a good way.

-JQP

JQP,

Experience's style is so obvious he does not need to have a handle...trust me on that one.

If you follow carefully, Experienced started calling me a peanut brain because he claims I am capable of forgetting. I am human and of course I am capable of forgetting.

He got all twisted because I pointed out he is also forgetful because he could not insert his moniker time after time.

He then had a temper tantrum and decided not to use his moniker because he could not remember and did not want anyone to think he is forgetful.

So what is your point of trying to take sides here or accuse me of personal attacks?

To me, it shows you have a weakness and can not debate the issues to involve yourself in a petty matter like this that does not involve you and is personal between 2 bloggers. It is not about an important issue or topic that should be open to all.

More than anyone else on this blog site, I discuss the issues.

I will write 2 pages discussing the issue. I did that today when Mark F challenged me after trying to ignore me.

It is folks like you with your typical one liners who like to take sides and stir trouble. Don't you have anything better to do than stick yourself in a petty argument between 2 bloggers? If we get out of control about forgetfulness, trust me the Moderator will step in. He seems to be very timely when he steps in and prevents unncessary escalations.

I think the majority of bloggers over time will see the TRUTH. Keep saying what you must, Mr. Public. In due time your credibility and reputation will be judged.

Bloggers can see through all the nonsense. Many bloggers agree with me and my positions despite the attempt of a few like yourself to constantly take stabs at me. If you want to be respected, make arguments to support your beliefs. Please stop playing Moderator.

I only listen to one Moderator. And I do respect and listen to him.

Experienced,

I hope you will continue to use your handle when you are responding to bloggers other than our many-handled friend. There are enough "Anonymous" bloggers as it is.

How long do you think it will be until the next time he claims that he never starts these personal attacks?

-JQP

Experienced,

I will let you have the last doo doo word so we can lower the level of hostility which I barely believe has risen. But I guess you are a little upset about your forgetfullness after suggesting a fellow blogger has the brain of a a peanut for possibly not having a 100% memory.

As they say what comes around goes around.

Karma is Sybil's best frend.

By Taxes, Taxes and more Taxes on June 11, 2009 1:16 AM

At least I am a man of my word. Your word, your promise to the Moderator to lower the hostility level, isn't worth doo doo.

Experienced,
It seems like you are having a temper tantrum because you can not remember to insert your moniker and someone points that out to you.

I am only pointing this out because you claimed my memory is the size of the peanut.

Well, your memory must be the size of an ant.

At least you solved your memory problem by just not worrying about inserting your moniker.

I commend you for your utter brilliance.

I think you need the forced vacation, Experienced. You are the one having a temper tantrum because your memory lapses have been exposed.

I will be taking a 2 week vacation later this summer and I promise you I will not be blogging. Enjoy my break away from the blog site. I will not announce my departure date, though.

By Taxes, Taxes and more Taxes on June 10, 2009 7:06 PM

And it is truly amazing how many times you simply forget your moniker. Maybe you also forgot what your real job is. And you have the audacity to say my head is the size of a peanut.

------------------

Woops. How quickly you forget your promise to the Moderator to lower the hostility level. It lasted all of 4.5 days. Then you are back to the name calling without any provocation on my part. Back to attacking me instead of discussing the issues. All I did was respond to your request for current pension information, and then tell you how I found out the information without having innate knowledge of the same. If you are upset at some other poster for rebuking you for your insistent badgering of me as a city employee when I deny the same, please don't take it out on me. I have not made any adverse comment about you at all since you made your promise that you have now broken.

I can't help it if I know how to research information off of the Internet. You don't have any idea as to how long I research one of my posts before I submit the same. My discussion of the various state pensions came from one URL on the CTA site. I don't know a lot, but I know where and how to find it when I want to. Just like I know where to find last year's audit on the City website that gives its date and the CPA firm that performed the outside audit including the actuarial study of the police and fire pension funds. I also know where to find this years budget document that gives the condition of the IMRF as communicated by its trustees to the various participants.

Maybe you were correct on June 6th when you said "You do have the power, Moderator, to stop, all name calling from all sides, by simply not posting. I am 100% for it." Maybe it's time for you to take a forced vacation while you calm down.

Finally, I will from now on when responding to you not utilize a user name. Then, maybe, you can discuss the issues and not me.

Experienced,
You know way too much specific information and you seem to be a little biased towards this corrupt pension system while acting like you are a neutral observer of sorts.

Now tell us how much you will receive in pension benefits after 30 years???

One time you mentioned 6 or 7 specific city and state pensions by name in one sentence. And you want us to believe you are simply a forensic accountant with no agenda. How about an actuary working on the pensions for the city? It would not surprise me if you developed all the wrong estimates that put us in this pension mess.

And it is truly amazing how many times you simply forget your moniker. Maybe you also forgot what your real job is. And you have the audacity to say my head is the size of a peanut.

By Taxes, Taxes and more Taxes on June 10, 2009 1:57 AM

I may be wrong but I still feel so much of your specific knowledge indicates you work for the city. How many people in town would know the audit was being conducted by Sikich and remember such a name?

-----------------------

How about someone who just prior to posting looked up the date on last year's audit and noted the name of the accounting firm?

I guess my wife got her Fidelity Annual Report for the fiscal year ending March 30, 2009.

========================================================================================================================================

The Dow Shire Wilshire 5000 Index was down -37.96% for the past 1 year, -19.96% for the past 5 years, and 19.19% for the past 10 years.

The S@P 500 Index was down -38.09% for the past 1 year, -21.16% for the past 5 years and -26.25% for the past 10 years.

========================================================================================================================================

While I do not know how the Naperville Police and Fire Pension Funds invest their money, most pension funds across the country invest substantially in US. Markets.

If the PO and FF pension funds are invested partially in US Stock Markets as I suspect that would explain how we can give them 21.16% in matching contributions and they can still lose $9.7 million in one fiscal year where the market was not having its worse year. I am not looking forward to seeing the numbers for the fiscal year ending April 30, 2009 for the City of Naperville Pension Funds. I don't think the City of Naperville will release them on a timely basis. I believe if they could, they would bury them like they buried the Napergate Man's legal expenses with the next City Official who passes away.

What bothers me is we the taxpayers lose our money forever while the police and fire fighters expect us to refund the money they invested and lost on their OWN in order that they get their 75% Big Fat Pensions at age 52. They take no risk and we take all the risk. If that does not suck, I don't know what sucks.

This should bother any taxpayer who has his or her bearings screwed on properly as long as they are not benefiting from this corrupt pension system.

By Experienced on June 9, 2009 11:56 AM
By Taxes, Taxes and more Taxes on June 8, 2009 11:55 PM

If it's the same as last year, the audit by Sikich won't be out until September.

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Experienced,

I may be wrong but I still feel so much of your specific knowledge indicates you work for the city. How many people in town would know the audit was being conducted by Sikich and remember such a name?

Anyway, I hope you provide us with the pension information when it is availabe.

When returns on investments are ZERO, if POs and FFs want 75% returns for 40 years, they need to contribute 100% of their salaries for 30 years to make these numbers work. Actually, more since they are making contributions on their average salary but taking pay-outs on their highest and final salary. Imagine that!

Or they need to contribute at least 50% while the taxpayers contribute at least 50% of their matching salaries for 30 years in order for them to receive 75% pensions for 40 years.

The only X factor here is the ROI(return on investment). If this can be increased to over ZERO(it has been 0 for nearly a decade in the stock market) those numbers will decrease.

If principal is lost in the stock market as has happened in the Nasdaq these ratios need to be even increased.

Even if they go for safe bank investment, these days they will be lucky to get 2% on a promotional CD rate. This takes 36 years to double the investment and will have a minor impact on the contribution ratios I mentioned above. I guess the Rule of 72 applies and not the Formula of 72 as I have been corrected by a fellow blogger on my technical use of the wrong language.

Anyway, I will be anxiously awaiting those numbers as I feel very confident they will show the pension system is broken as a I suspect we will have another significant deficit.

The only question in my mind is not if we will have a deficit but how large it will be.

By Taxes, Taxes and more Taxes on June 8, 2009 11:55 PM

Since the fiscal year ended April 30, maybe the Naperville Sun, CM Bob or Experienced will provide us with the new numbers soon.

--------------------------

If it's the same as last year, the audit by Sikich won't be out until September.

JQP,

I am not exaggerating. All the numbers I use in my posts orginated from CM Bob and I simply memorized them.

The numbers tell the truth.

Tell me what number I misrepresented.

Yes, I make some estimates off those factual numbers and they may not be the best but they are better than those made by the professionals who got us a $61.4 million pension liability deficit. What deficit did I cause?

Since the fiscal year ended April 30, maybe the Naperville Sun, CM Bob or Experienced will provide us with the new numbers soon.

Let us see if the new numbers indicate we put a dent on the deficit. I am reserving my judgment on the new numbers until they come out. I am not here spewing propaganda. I am spreading facts.

But the old numbers of last year speak for themselves. They are factual. I am sorry your don't have faith in CM Bob's numbers. I believe they are 100% accurate.

If you don't like the CM's numbers please provide us with your numbers and analysis off those numbers.

Taxes,

You've got a long history of ignoring any ideas but your own, any opinions but your own, and any "facts" except those that support your arguments, no matter how questionable those "facts" might be. You want to dump pensions for public employees, and you're willing to exaggerate, obfuscate, misrepresent and misdirect if that's what it takes to convince others to join in your crusade. If I really thought you were willing to engage in some give and take on this issue, I might be willing to put forth some ideas that, if implemented, could make pensions a little easier on the budget; but I don't, so I'm not taking your bait here.

-JQP

Mr. Public,

I will let you have the last word so we can move forward and develop technical solutions.....your proposal please....

Taxes wrote:

You remind me so much of JQP trying to be technical since you and him never have an opinion, ideas or facts of your own.

LOL! No opinions, ideas or facts that you like, anyway. BTW, you could stand to be a LOT more technical, yourself.

Anonymous,

I never said these were my ideas of Facts. You are stating these UNTRUTHS and discrediting yourself in the process. At least you showed your cowardice by coming on as Anonymous as opposed to your normal moniker in order for no one to be able to hold you accountable for your distortions.

I have clearly stated these are my opinions and estimates....not my facts.

Please don't distort.

If it is the Rule of 72 instead of the Formula of 72, let it be what it is. You obviously understand what I am taking about. We don't need 2 JQPs playing nitty picky here on this blog site. One is more than ENOUGH! Let us try to be more creative instead of an imitator.

You remind me so much of JQP trying to be technical since you and him never have an opinion, ideas or facts of your own.

she was sober and I believe it was a very rough estimate

She did the computation in front of me but I really did not understand it

I think

I do not know what the exact number is

I could do better than our current actuarians

I have no doubt she is right

I am sure

_____________________

Just some examples of this persons idea of Facts! And by the way it's the "Rule of 72", not the Formula of 72. "1% compounded annually will double itself every 72 years".

John Q. Public,

Employers in good time contribute on average 2% of matching funds. Why do we taxpayers have to contribute 21.16%? How can taxpayers even afford to? California collapsed because taxpayers could not afford their taxes anymore and pensions are part of their taxes.

If you look at your old real estate tax bills, you can observe that the city has been yanking an equal proportion for at least 10 years. I know you are a newcomer and may not have records going back 30 years.

As far as that 40% number actually Becky my acquaintence mentioned it based on the knowledge she has of the pension system. I believe she did pull it out of thin air while having a beer at the Tilted Kilt. But she was sober and I believe it was a very rough estimate from an experienced and degreed actuarian from the University of Illinois.

She was sober enough to compute on her hand held calculator that money doubles every 11.89 years at 6%. She did the computation in front of me but I really did not understand it. I just use the simple method of the formula of 72 which gave me 12 years for 6% interest. Obviously, I trusted her computation as it was so close to mine. I am sure someone on this blog site has the knowledge to compute independently to see if she was right or wrong.

If you read my post carefully, I said either of these 2 things must happen OR a combination of both.

The pension deficit of 61.4 million for Naperville POs and FFs did not happen overnight. Naperville was making its annual contributions every year and we accumulated this deficit.

So what are you trying to say, Mr. Public. If 21.16% did not cut it should we guess 10-15% will do it instead of 30% to 40%? Common sense and logic has to rule if you don't have the EXPERTISE as I don't.

I think anyone with any common sense knows you need a significantly higher number than a lower number.

No, I did not publish the exact number and no I do not know what the exact number is. Becky, has no clue what the exact number is. Naperville is not part of her project. She is involved only with state pensions.

Even the actuarians who work on the Naperville Pension funds have no clue what the right number is or we would not have such a huge deficit. They make estimates and calcualte based on those estimates. Their estimates have been way off. Do you think I have a crystal ball and know the exact estimate? But I could do better than our current actuarians. That is for sure. They have failed us miserably.

If you have a better estimate, please supply it. I am confident I am in the ball park. Let us see if your estimate will even be in the city limits.

Becky is an actuary with experience and when an actuary pulls a number out of thin air, I assume it is a rough estimate.

It is like the betting line on sport games. It should be close but it will never be exact unless you're lucky. But they are usually in the ball park. Our actuaries could not even find the Pacific Ocean on a map. That is how bad they are.

I think we all saw what 21.16% did in good times with a rising market. It got us an increase of 9.7 million in the pension deficit.

I have no doubt she is right that you must donate at least 40%. I think she chose a conservative number and it is way over that if investment returns are poor. If investment returns ever turn great I am sure that number would possibly be adjusted to 30-35%.

If you want to be real technical, JQP, gain some knowledge and visit the city actuarians and get back to us.

Taxes,

Of course you can't pay a pension of 75% when the only contribution is 9 1/2% from the employee. Nobody is pretending that that is what is happening here, so why do you keep making this point over and over again? You can't possibly think that the city should contribute absolutely nothing to its employees' retirement. After all, every employer in the country contributes at least some money to his employees' retirement, even if it's just Social Security.

As for point #2, we still don't know for certain how long the minimum contribution from the city has been 17.5%, let alone the 20%+ that CM Bob reported. I'm not going to discuss possibilities with you about how the deficit occurred, because just about everything I've ever said to you on the subject goes in one ear and out the other. I will say, though, that if I had to bet on whether you got that 40% figure from one of your actuary friends or whether you pulled it of thin air, I'd bet big money on the latter.

-JQP

JQP,

This is complex from a technical point of view.

But my common sense told me without doing the kind of research, Experienced does, you can not collect 9.45% from an employee for 30 years(this on his average salary) and turn around and pay him 75% of his HIGHEST and FINAL SALARY for 40 or 50 years and maybe much longer if the employee marries young girls like Drew Peterson. Then we may be paying up for 70 to 80 years as the beneifts continue until the spouse dies.

Thankfully most cops do not marry girls 30 years younger or the pension system would have dried up in the last decade. Maybe a law should be passed not allowing public employees to marry anyone 5 years or more younger. This would prevent city employees from trading their older wives in for younger wives and increasing taxpayer pension liability...lol...(just having some fun while I think out of the box and attempt to leave no stone unturned in finding ways to reduce pension costs.)

On a serious note in order to collect 9.45% and pay 75% either of these two things must happens or a combination.

1. You must have returns of 30% or better on the pension investments.

2. You must donate at least 40% matching contributions for the POs, FFs, and City Employees. We have all seen how far 20% matching contributions got us.....no where...Big Deficits!

By John Q. Pulblic on June 6, 2009 1:17 AM
Experienced,

Do you know if 17.5% has always been the minimum rate, or was that rate established when they passed the law to require 100% funding of the pensions by 2033?

-JQP
--------------------

I can't tell from the free on-line info and I don't feel like spending $9 for the pay site. The last amendment was in 2006 but I can't tell what was changed. The 40 year amortization provision appears to have been adopted in 1993 when the 40 year period began. If I remember when I am at the courthouse this week, I'll look up the legislative history at the law library.

Moderator Chris,
Please delete my prior post and republish the revised one below which deletes the last paragraph. I am all for lowering the hostility level and temperature. Let us hope others will and you will hint to the bloggers the past is the past and we need to move forward into the present and future. You do have the power, Moderator, to stop, all name calling from all sides, by simply not posting. I am 100% for it. It appears you and most bloggers are for it on a selective basis.

The biggest complaint against me is I used multi-handles. Well I have been sticking to one handle mostly and now using it on mult-threads. I may have finally found a handle I truly like which express my message each and every time. If this was the real problem bothering my fellow bloggers, I suspect the name calling would have stopped. I always suspected it was my message that was disturbing to bloggers who may be firefighters, police officers, city officials or state legislaturs who would be greatly impacted by my proposals and suggestions. Ask them to stop cussing on me because I am extremely concerned about high taxes in this town caused by both their very high salaries and extremely generous pension pay-outs starting at way to young an age.

The last 6 months have confirmed this to me. While you may not notice, Moderator, I make a deliberate and calculated effort not to start with anyone. My weakness is a strong need to retaliate with a much stronger counter attack. Ironically, when I publish a strong counter attack, I am usually relieved you did not publish it. Maybe, if you did not publish all the personal attacks against me, the bloggers would also have a sense of relief. Maybe they will stop attacking if they know you will not publish. Maybe they really don't want to jump in the Mud Ring but also can not control themselves. I think we all would agree personal attacks do not belong on a serious site like this.

I think you can run a Jerry Springer Show or an Oprah Show. I am all for an Oprah style show. Oprah has much more viewership and she does not to fabricate anything. She also does not allow name calling. Jerry Springer allows name calling, fabricating and even fist fighting. While I have not checked the TV ratings, I am willing to guess Oprah has 10-20 times the viewers as JS. And that assumes JS has not been thrown off TV. I really don't know as I watch very little TV except for one hour of CNBC and one hour of CNN per day while blogging.

The rest of the time I am swimming, walking, talking to friends, playing soccer or having a beer "That Never Looked So Good at the Tilted Kilt." At the Tilted Kilt, we say what happnens at the Kllt stays at the Kilt. I wish we had a saying on the Sun Blog Site which stated "That what Happened in the Past stays in the Past." Even Las Vegas believes what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. Let us conform to the rules of playing and blogging. It is about time.

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Experienced,

Thanks for the help.

You proved the pension system is more screwed up than I ever would have imagined.

A minimum of 17.5% in matching contributions PLUS the annual amount necessary to amortize the fund's unfunded accrued liabilities over a period of 40 years..........

Amazing! Astonishing!

I am with you. Let us amend the Constitution. Let us implode the Constitution.

I never thought it could really be this bad...but I guess it is much worse than I have ever comtemplated.

It is really a shame when private citizens can barely squeeze 2% in matching contributions from their employers, yet these same private citizens who were not given raises this year have to find a way to give Naperville POs and FFs 21.16% in matching contributions.

You proved that this 21.16% is not going away as John Q. Public once thought it was tempoaray and for the purpose of catching up. The minimum appears to be 17.5% plus another number. If anything we are near the minimum. How shocking your information is? How could our legislatures been so dumb to approve sucn an unaffordable pension system. If you want to accuse anyone of having a peanut brain, accuse our state politicians who got us in this mess. I had nothing to do with it.

This also confirms my belief and substantiates my calculations that for in order for this pension system to work, we need to make matching contributions of possibly upwards of 40% from the wallets and purses of the taxpayers....at least!!! More if we can not achieve a decent return on investment on funds invested. It is really all beginning to make sense thanks to the factual contributions Experienced is making on this blog site.

Why don't you wish the politicians go away instead of me, Experienced? What wrong did I do except for exposing them?

Furthermore, just to be factual, you were the one who cared to know who I was, claimed you knew, and were doing me some kind of majestic favor by not identifying me to my fellow bloggers....how soon you forget and now you challenge my memory instead of your own memory. I am glad you can now accept my anonymous status. Thank you!

Many thanks also for all your help in the research. I will admit you are a better researcher than I am. I may be a better thinker out of the box but you are a great researcher. Keep up the good work, Experienced. Maybe we can work as a team if you stop cussing me out every day and wishing I would go away. Peanuts are healthy for the brain as long as you are not allergic...lol.

Experienced,

Do you know if 17.5% has always been the minimum rate, or was that rate established when they passed the law to require 100% funding of the pensions by 2033?

-JQP

The problem with the pension funds began in the late 70's when the president of one of the fire unions was elected to the house. He proceeded to sponsor and push through all kinds of pension legislation for the firefighters. Of course what the firefighters got, the police had to get too. Any time the cities came up with a way to reduce costs, he'd sponsor and push through new legislation to thwart it. Blame the voters in his district.

By Taxes, Taxes and more Taxes on June 5, 2009 2:04 PM

I think it is time to call for lower taxes to show whose side of the debate you are on.

--------------------------

I don't have to show anything or take a side on this debate or any debate. Where it is written that everyone who blogs here must take a side on the debate? I like the role I have taken, thank you.

Would you like to try for 12?

I guess I could use your normal statement that I don't have to do your research; but I won't. Example of a funding provision (I don't want to look up 5 different statutes):

Sec. 4‑118. Financing.
(a) The city council or the board of trustees of the municipality shall annually levy a tax upon all the taxable property of the municipality at the rate on the dollar which will produce an amount which, when added to the deductions from the salaries or wages of firefighters and revenues available from other sources, will equal a sum sufficient to meet the annual actuarial requirements of the pension fund, as determined by an enrolled actuary employed by the Illinois Department of Insurance or by an enrolled actuary retained by the pension fund or municipality. For the purposes of this Section, the annual actuarial requirements of the pension fund are equal to (1) the normal cost of the pension fund, or 17.5% of the salaries and wages to be paid to firefighters for the year involved, whichever is greater, plus (2) the annual amount necessary to amortize the fund's unfunded accrued liabilities over a period of 40 years from July 1, 1993, as annually updated and determined by an enrolled actuary employed by the Illinois Department of Insurance or by an enrolled actuary retained by the pension fund or the municipality.

Therefore, what this is saying is that the city must levy the amount that the Department of Insurance tells them to levy to meet the needs of the fund as determined by the Department's actuary. As you see, the minimum is 17.5%. The reason why the amount varies by city is that the actuarial needs of each pension fund differs due to the number of annuitants and the salaries upon which the pensions are calculated.

Example of a provision that pension levies are not subject to the tax cap:

(35 ILCS 200/18‑185)
Sec. 18‑185. Short title; definitions. This Division 5 may be cited as the Property Tax Extension Limitation Law. As used in this Division 5:

*****

"Aggregate extension" for the taxing districts to which this Law did not apply before the 1995 levy year (except taxing districts subject to this Law in accordance with Section 18‑213) means the annual corporate extension for the taxing district and those special purpose extensions that are made annually for the taxing district, excluding special purpose extensions: ***(p) made for contributions to a firefighter's pension fund created under Article 4 of the Illinois Pension Code

Aggregate extension is the figure that is limited by the act.

I don't need the moderator to heap praise upon me. I know of which I speak normally. If I make a mistake (which I have on occasion), I admit.

Would you like to try for 11?

Taxes wrote:

"Now I write strictly from memory and don't need the likes of John Q. Public telling me it is 9.46% or 9.90%. That is a waste of time."

I don't have time to correct all of the little mistakes you make. I try to limit myself to the whoppers.

Chris Magee, moderator on June 5, 2009 3:00 PM
You make me regret ever saying anything.
___________________

Amen to that brother!

Dear Mr. or Miss Peanut Head,
You said: "You need to provide proof that I am wrong instead of calling me a peanut head hoping that will give you credibility."

That's backwards. You're trying to get someone to make your argument FOR you, and no one is going to do that. If you truly believe this to be the case, prove it YOURSELF. See how that works?
You keep repeating the same things over and over, with little or no variation, only the most minor changes when someone essentially proves that you're wrong.
How about this - instead of trying to get someone to educate you and prove that you're wrong, do something to prove that you're RIGHT?

& just to give you a little rope to work with, give this a try:
http://www.ippfa.org/about-us.html
You'll even note that the Naperville representative is currently the Secretary. Even if you can't make sense of the website, and that's not a dig at your peanutheadedness it IS hard to figure out, I bet you could have the situation explained by one of these people who work with this every DAY.

I would also note that you all but ruin this website for me, with your constant raving and demands that others must prove you wrong.

In closing, Mr. peanut, you also said: "No one on this blog site knows who I am."

I would add that no one actually seems to care, and we just wish you'd go away.

The State of Illinois provides lots of support for illegal aliens manufacturing babies. They provide food stamps and health benefits to the Mom and baby while the father is gainfully employed working undergroud for GREEN cash. In essence the Mom is getting double support. Almost like the double dipping Marshall gets but albeit in smaller amounts.

I did report 2 such cases to the NPD and they chose to do nothing. I guess they have nothing against people double dipping since they believe in double dipping themselves....at least they are not hypocrits....lol...

I must say Always-Right that you are always right. You are worthy of the moniker you have chosen for yourself.

Thanks for the help in trying to explain to bloggers how government is letting us have it up the WAZZOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO with these high taxes.

Immediately stop all spending on illegal aliens and arrest anyone providing and running a sanctuary city. This will save Illinois billions of dollars. Now we can have a tax reduction!

By Experienced on June 5, 2009 4:40 AM
By Taxes, Taxes and more Taxes on June 4, 2009 7:08pm

I have never called for lower taxes, but I have never called for higher taxes either. [I did however remind you that your assessment was too high and that you should get it lowered.]

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I think it is time to call for lower taxes to show whose side of the debate you are on.

I had lowered my assessment last year before you ever told me. As I said you believe I am someone else in real life. You don't know who I am. I am certain of that. No one on this blog site knows who I am. Not even the Moderator.

I do learn from you. If you notice, I am using Chapter 9 instead of Chapter 7 or 11 as far as reorganizing the state or cities.

However I still doubt you that we are required by some law to make this 21.16% contribution even if we forced Naperville into non-home rule where they could only have increased our taxes .01% instead of 11%. You need to provide proof that I am wrong instead of calling me a peanut head hoping that will give you credibility. I believe we can decrease this 21.16% matching contribution if we chose to. How about all those poor towns like Bellwood, Harvey, Stone Park, etc.....how can they afford 21.16% when they have no McMansions in their run down towns???

I understand you are saying we can limit general taxes to a .01% increase from an 11% increase if we strip home rule from our drunken sailors running this town, but we must accept the 10.5% increase to pensions. I want you to point me to the statute that says pension levys are exempt from these tax increase ceilings. What are the requirements for cities in funding pensions? Please answer instead of saying I have the memory of a peanut.

There appears to be NO state requirement for cities as each one seeems to contribute what it can afford or feels like contributing into these pension funds. Some towns make NO contributions.

I know police officers have to contribute 9.45% of their salaries to their pension funds. I know fire fighters are required to contribute 9.91% of their salaries. This is a state law or requirement and not optional. Now I write strictly from memory and don't need the likes of John Q. Public telling me it is 9.46% or 9.90%. That is a waste of time.

Now please, give me the statutes regarding pension levys and the respective exemptions or limitations. You have called me a peanut head at least 10 times. What purpose would it serve to call me a peanut head 11 times unless you want to sound like a broken record or a dumber than dumb parot repeating itself hourly. You are more intelligent than that. Act like it so the Moderator will one day label you intelligent as he labeled me intelligent.

Only then will I believe you are intelligent. The moderator tells the truth. He has got Extra Sensory Perception....lol...

By Taxes, Taxes and more Taxes on June 4, 2009 7:08 PM

You are always trying to justify higher taxes. If not why are you and I debating and arguing all the time. I constantly reap praise on those who are for lower taxes. You have not been for lower taxes. You have never called for lower taxes. You are accepting of the status quo and think everything is honky dorky. It is not.

------------------

We are always debating here because you don't always know what the heck you are talking about. You make statements that are not correct and I correct them. When I do, you take it personally. Instead of learning from others and working the new knowledge into your mindset and opinions, you attack the messenger who has rightfully corrected you. Just because I try to impart knowledge upon you, doesn't mean that I don't recognize your underlying message. I only try to mold your message.

I have never called for lower taxes, but I have never called for higher taxes either. [I did however remind you that your assessment was too high and that you should get it lowered.]

There is a way to lower the pension burden, but you won't listen. You like your way and any criticism is unacceptable. Have you called Senger and told her to vote for Senate Bill 1292 or pointed out to her the Tribune editorial in support thereof and pension reform as a whole? Senate Bill 1292 is the next step in the process to Constitutional pension reform. Constitutional being the operative word.

Anonymous,

I have no problem altering my plan and accepting your plan as long as you are willing to throw all the corrupt politicians off of the cliff.

But don't you think my plan would raise a little more money to reduce taxes?

PETA should not complain as we will make sure the lions and tigers are fed well. I don't see a lion or tiger losing a fight against a corrupt politician. As to how these politicians will taste to the tigers and lions I am not sure. But they probably will stink. Let us hope the animals will even eat the smelly politicians.

Taxes,

If we went with the Stadium approach, it could solve a number of problems using the old formula.

Typically its hard to find actors or athletes where the final act is them as a stain on the sand.

Learning from our friends the Romans, we could empty the prisons of serious offenders a few hundred every Sunday and equip them with modern Gladiatorial equipment like baseball bats, knives, steel pipes, prison shanks etc.

To keep the entertainment going longer, football helmets and pads could also be issued in different configurations.

A nominal fee for entertainment could be charged and the real money would be in savings of not having to pay for warehousing, police to re-arrest the same people over and over again and lives not destroyed by the criminals.

We would probably have to skip the wild animal hunts so we don't get in trouble with PETA.

As to corrupt politicians, still throw them off the cliff.

Experienced,

I would not classify you as a neutral messenger.

Experienced,

Rather than call me a peanut brain show me where in any law or ordinance it states we must give our POs and FFs 21.16% in matching contributions.

If it is not required by law, why are we doing it.

So what you are saying is if the pension investors for PO and FFs lose all their money in the stock market, since there is no levy constraints we the taxpayers have to restore the enitre G$d D$mn pension losses.

If what you are saying is true, I say blow up the Constitution of the State of Illinois.

As far as your leniencies, Mr. Experienced, they are very well known. You have been blogging here for quite a long time and every one who follows this blog site knows you have been in the forefront defending corrupt government officials both at the city and state level.

You are always trying to justify higher taxes. If not why are you and I debating and arguing all the time. I constantly reap praise on those who are for lower taxes. You have not been for lower taxes. You have never called for lower taxes. You are accepting of the status quo and think everything is honky dorky. It is not.

Have I ever reaped praise on you, Mr. Wordy Mouth...Mr. Name Caller? I don't think so. The only bloggers who have reaped praise on you are the 3 Stooges. That is the only praise you are worthy of.

Today's Tribune Editorial

"--The Illinois pension system is underfunded by some $80 billion. The state has to pour billions each year into it. Employees have to contribute more to those pension funds and new hires have to receive benefits that are more affordable to the state."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/editorials/chi-0604edit1jun04,0,4284267.story

Sounds like Senate Bill 1292 currently languishing in the House.

Great Idea Anonymous.

Maybe we can sell tickets for 10,000 per seat to watch our corrupt government officials fight the lions and tigers.

I bet Chicago Stadium would sell out.

That would be 80,000 seats times $10,000 per seat for $800,000,000 in one shot. Fans pay $1000 for playoff games and many thousands for Super Bowl tickets. There is no reason we can not fetch $10,000 per ticket. Box seats could go for more. Suites could go for a million a piece for the Big Event. A bar has to pay $1500 for the right to televise Ultimate Fighting. Can you imagine what people pay for up-front seats to see a little blood? This will be a fight between a Tiger and Quinn. Imagine Quinn may do a disappearing act in the stomach of the Tiger! That has to be worth 10,000 bucks. I am good for 5 tickets as it is less than my 60k in real estate taxes and it is a good investment to reduce them in the future. I am sure I will come out ahead one day.

Maybe we can have several shows at Chicago Stadium by not releasing all our public officials to the lions and tigers at once.

If we can divide them into 5 groups we will have 4 billion dollars to reduce the pain on the taxpayers. Yes, all roads lead to Rome and we should do as the Romans did. Period.

"I like to pay taxes. With them I buy civilization."

By Taxes, Taxes and more Taxes on June 4, 2009 2:46 PM

I am utterly confused why a non-government employee like Experienced is constantly defending the government and now pushing their sick agenda with his propaganda on this blog site while pretending to be a civilian not receiving a BIG FAT PENSION....lol....as loud as you can!

--------------------------------

There you go again. I post a recent development related to the topic of the blog without comment to spark further discussion, and you automatically assume that I am in agreement with the governor. All I did was post the governor's press release to further the discussion as an FYI. I didn't say I was for it or against it. I merely posted it so that the participants could comment on it. I got exactly what I was expecting when Anonymous on June 4, 2009 12:17 PM responded with his/her opinion on the press release. You again attack the neutral messenger rather than discuss the issues.

And, peanut brain, you still haven't got the message that pension levies are not subject to the tax cap.

Was it the Romans that would throw corrupt government officials off of a cliff onto a pile of rocks? (sounds painful)

Perhaps we could sell tickets and popcorn at Point of Rocks to recoup some of our hard earned money.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The penalty for a politician asking for a tax increase should be the Death Penalty. Most tax increases are for corruption purposes and the Death Penalty is warranted when government steals taxpayer money and squanders it.

Taxes wrote:

It is time to stop the corruption. We paid into the state pension funds and the state stole the money and squandered it on themselves.

We didn't pay anything into the state pensions. We just paid income tax into the general fund, and the state, in setting it's spending priorities, chose not to make adequate pension fund payments. This was done in our name, BTW, so like it or not, we are legally and morally on the hook for it.

By Experienced on June 3, 2009 7:45 PM
The Governor today released his list of service cuts:

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The governor can take his list and shove up it up his wazooooo.

It reminds me of exactly what the California govennor said about 2 weeks ago.

The taxpayers gave it to Arnold Shwarznegger up the wazoooo. They did not care that he was once the strongest man on earth. It is time for our governor to lobby for an 18% reduction in pay for public officials and employees just like they did in Calfornia.

It is time for our governor to ask all public employees to voluntarity reduce their pensions from 75% to 50%. If it is done voluntarily there would be no need for legislative or constitutional amendments. There would be no need for Experienced to give us his nonsense advice.

If public employees do not want to take voluntary cuts in salary and bonus, I suggest the State of Illinois and every city in Illnois file Chapter 9 and rid themselves of all pension liability. Either take a small pill or swallow the poison and die.

In Naperville all we have to do is go to non-home rule. That would limit our tax increases to the lower of 5% or the CPI index of .01%. If we can not increase taxes, we will not be able to make 21.16% matching contributions to our POs and FFs. Their is no law that mandates we pay this insane amount of a 21.16% contribution. The law only mandates POs pay 9.45% and the FFs pay 9.91% of their salaries. Their fund managers are suppose to make a return on investment with their own contributions to enable them to receive a 75% pension at age 52. Their own pension managers failed them and lost their money. We are not responsible for their $61.4 million deficit. It is their own responsiblility.

I am sick and tired of all this bullsh$t to justify higher taxes.

I am utterly confused why a non-government employee like Experienced is constantly defending the government and now pushing their sick agenda with his propaganda on this blog site while pretending to be a civilian not receiving a BIG FAT PENSION....lol....as loud as you can!

Anonymous did a great job documenting why we don't need these services.

It is time to stop the corruption. We paid into the state pension funds and the state stole the money and squandered it on themselves. We paid into the city pension funds up to 21.16% in matching contributions and they tell us they increased their deficit by $9.7 million to $61.4 million in one louzy year. I have had enough of this bolony. I want to see some beef for a change.

No more taxes, no more taxes and NO MORE TAXES.

Enough is Enough.

The penalty for a politician asking for a tax increase should be the Death Penalty. Most tax increases are for corruption purposes and the Death Penalty is warranted when government steals taxpayer money and squanders it.

The Governor today released his list of service cuts:

• 65,000 people with alcohol and substance addictions would lose treatment.

AA and church meetings are free

• 80,000 low-income working mothers would lose childcare services that allow them to keep their jobs.

Victims of the government paying them to have babies as an industry, when the subsidies stopped at 1 child a few years ago the babies stopped at 1. This means that babies for cash will now stop at zero where it should have been all along. There is also the radical possibility of getting married to a man and sharing the cost of running the house.

• Over 20,000 seniors would lose the services they need to stay in their homes.

At some point my mother and in-laws will probably be moving in with me as they get older at no cost to the taxpayers.

• 15,000 kids’ foster parents would see their support cut in half.

See paying mothers to have kids as an industry above, also a good argument for re-opening orphanages which the liberals will never allow because it conflicts with their failed theories which are always going to work next year. Mickey Rooney who grew up in Boys Town tried to breath new life into orphanages a few years ago, the liberals dumped all over him. Foster homes in many cases are horrible to criminal.

• 23,000 adoption subsidies would be cut.

Don't know what this means.

• 175,000 people would lose community mental health services, dramatically increasing homelessness, institutionalization and incarceration rates.

Aren't a lot of these people the same as the substance abuse people listed above? Carter dismantled the state run mental institutions and created this problem because his aunt didn't like being forced to stay in a mental institution. This forced families to try to manage the problem at home which is overwhelming for most people.

We had a crack-whore-alcoholic-neighbor with kids on state aid a few years ago. Her family would sign her into an institution and she would sign herself out a few days later. Both her and kids were a total write-off and still a drag on the rest of the population. Locked away from drugs and her lifestyle, she may have had a chance to become productive; alas she kept getting thrown back into the pond.

• All rehabilitation programs for people with disabilities would be eliminated.

Goodwill goes out of business, really?
Insurance companies will stop paying for rehab, really?

• 56,000 victims of domestic violence and sexual assault would lose services.

Since sexual predators never stop, maybe we'll finally deal with the real problem and permanently incarcerate them or hang them, my preference.

• 5,500 people with disabilities would lose their community-based services.

Don't know what this means

• 463,000 children and teens would lose critical services in areas such as substance abuse, teen pregnancy, violence and delinquency.

Don't know what this means, suspect this is part of paying people to have babies they don't want as an industry. They are so cute, like puppies and the government will give my 13 year old self spending money and everything else I need. Besides, I'm the only 13 year old in my class with no baby. Bill Cosby does a great job of addressing this issue.

• 190,000 students would lose college scholarships.

University professors and administrators will have to take a pay and or benefits cut while they get to keep their tenure and 8 month a year jobs that pay better in many cases than anything they could get in the filthy capitalist economy that pays them.
Who knows, students may have to take over some of the work at the Universities to help keep them running.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Does anyone know how much of the State Budget is just for corruption? Is it 10%, or more?

The Governor today released his list of service cuts:

• 65,000 people with alcohol and substance addictions would lose treatment.
• 80,000 low-income working mothers would lose childcare services that allow them to keep their jobs.
• Over 20,000 seniors would lose the services they need to stay in their homes.
• 15,000 kids’ foster parents would see their support cut in half.
• 23,000 adoption subsidies would be cut.
• 175,000 people would lose community mental health services, dramatically increasing homelessness, institutionalization and incarceration rates.
• All rehabilitation programs for people with disabilities would be eliminated.
• 56,000 victims of domestic violence and sexual assault would lose services.
• 5,500 people with disabilities would lose their community-based services.
• 463,000 children and teens would lose critical services in areas such as substance abuse, teen pregnancy, violence and delinquency.
• 190,000 students would lose college scholarships.

The pensions are one piece of the puzzle, apparently the people that rate bonds and risk are re-evaluating the whole government, union, sector of the economy that the FEDs are grabbing equation.

Borrowing money for the states, municipalities, FEDs and companies with unions may be getting more expensive and soon.

The march towards printing our way out of the problem continues, if dollar dumping begins in a big way hold on to your hat its a long way down.

Rambo

Why are pension untouchable or undiscussable. The state of Illinios is a financial train wreck and that includes at least a 40 billion underfunding of pensions. Clearly it is an issue, especially since most people now days in private industry don't have pensions that pay 75 percent of their final salary. The letter published in todays paper is very good. So what are we supposed to do either talk about only part of the issue which essentially buries our head in the sand or do we discuss everything on why Illinois is a financial train wreck because that truly is the topic when we are discussing any proposal to raise the state income tax by atleast 50%.

How do you rant at length about people not respecting the moderator's wishes, then you go ahead and submit yet another pension rant? Is your brain that broken? Just like how no one cared about the parking garages, no one cares about pensions. Give it a rest. If you can't afford to live in Naperville or Illinois, move to Alaska.

Please don't hijack this topic in to yet another pension discussion. We saw this before with Napergate, then "Barack Hussein Obama" gimmick, then parking garages, and now pensions.

Please just give it a rest.

Moderator Chris,
While it is true, I beat the Pension Deficit to death, the letter by Mr. Weiss really gives a different perspective. It has a different angle than mine.

Here is the excellent letter in its entirety. If it was good enough to make the print edition it should be good enough to make the blog site. This is the kind of letter people like to read and it will only make your blog site more successful. Maybe it will help bloggers understand it is just not one person that thinks the pension system is a huge factor in our deficit. And finally why is Quinn calling for cuts everywhere but in the Pensions that are unaffordable in these days and times? Private enterprise abolished pensions and so should government. Look at the state of GM and Chrysler: two private companies that refused to abolish pensions. Both just filed bankruptcy. In my opinion their cars are superb and it is their legacy costs that brought them down. My family owns 3 GM cars and and I could not ask for more. Honestly! Buy American and help America especially now since these union employees smelled the coffee and made MAJOR CONCESSIONS. Let us take care of our American workers when they are being reasonable.

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State spending cause of Quinn's tax hike

Gov. Pat Quinn eloquently laid out what he called his "doomsday scenario" recently. It was a laundry list of all the things the state would have to eliminate from the budget and the related spending cuts required, if he didn't get his wish to increase taxes on Illinois citizens by 50 percent. A lot of people looked at it as a scare tactic.

In reality, it is a list of all of the expenditures that the state couldn't afford to begin with, and cannot continue to sustain. These are all representative of the state spending beyond its means on a vast array of social programs. I think it's excellent that Quinn has identified the things that would have to be eliminated. Fine, eliminate them.

The politicians in Springfield, representing arguably the most corrupt state in the country, continue to quibble over meaningless ethics reforms, as nothing other than a distraction to the state's real problem. If it wasn't for the massive "corruption tax" each and every one of us pay to support all of the insider deals, pay-to-play politics, and ineptitude in Springfield, you would have to wonder if there would have been any budget shortfall, or any need to increase taxes.

The driving force behind much of the budget deficit seems related to under-funded pension plans. It's not that the citizens of Illinois didn't pay their fair share to support the teachers and municipal employees' pension plans. They did. The state government diverted those funds, and didn't fulfill its obligation to make the necessary contributions, and spent the money elsewhere.

Now they come to the taxpayers, and say, oops, sorry we overspent and mismanaged the state. Trust us, give us more money, and we'll do better next time. The teachers' union runs ads saying, Oh, please, don't hurt the poor children, support our pensions by increasing your taxes so we can have the very best teachers; completely missing the point that the taxpayers have done exactly that, and it is state government that effectively stole their pension money, and now wants the taxpayers to pay for it again.

Anyone who believes this group in Springfield can fix this problem without massive restructuring seriously needs to wake up and pay attention. The ineptitude, excessive spending and corruption of the very people holding office, and their mismanagement of the state's finances, are the sole cause of Illinois' budgetary problems. Everything else is a smoke screen. There needs to be accountability. How absurd is it that they dare to give themselves raises for mismanaging the state's finances?

It is an outrage that Quinn expects the people of this state to make a greater sacrifice when the political class has shown absolutely no leadership, and is the root cause of the problem. It's time the state government made the sacrifice. Cut spending!

Stephen Weiss

Naperville

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PS. Is this not a great letter, Moderator? Many people will not use the link provided so I hope you publish it. Thank you very much Moderator Chris in advance for your consideration.

Chris can you just rename "Naperville Potluck" to "Pension Chat"?

To all, especially chris the moderator, I believe the pension issue is relevent. Mr Weiss in his letter to the editor, published today, states the issue very well.

http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/napervillesun/news/opinions/letters/1602115,6_4_NA02_LETTERS_S1-090602.article

In short the state of Illinois has spent too much money and therefore to clean house all aspects of the states expenses, including pensions must be on the table! There is no way to separate them.

We need to increase taxes and regulations until we force all of the running dogs of capitalism out of our polluted state.

Once we have driven all of the high income earners, capitalists, investors, entrepreneurs, and enemies of the people out of the state, then we can have a true paradise.

We can close all of their filthy polluting factories, stop all coal mining, close the coal and nuclear plants and replace them with green energy. Yes, we are all ready to sacrifice air conditioning and keep the heat on 50 all winter to achieve true equality and social justice. Yes we can!

We can all be on the peoples health care like Cuba, Doctors will have to take their $50K a year and like it! We can drive the peoples cars that Detroit will finally be making now that its under the peoples control. All individualism, must be erased, there are only the needs of the group. University intellectuals will provide the guidance for the people and allocate the resources of our society for social justice.

When anyone who saved a penny while alive dies; we will take their savings, the peoples money, and distribute it to the truly needy. If they had savings, they must have been exploiting someone!

Under the leadership of our great local, state and national leaders we finally have social justice in hand.

Lets tax and regulate all the pigs out of existence, all jobs should pay the same regardless of performance! Unions are like a shining beacon onto all of the workers!

Tax revenues are completely collapsing, no doubt due to counter revolutionary capitalist conspiratorial forces, we are now the government and we will print all of the money we need when the people need something, starting with the needs of our comrade union members!

Anyone with savings and investments will see their ill gotten gains from exploiting the people vaporized before their eyes as we print the money to meet the peoples needs.

For those who we allow to keep their filthy capitalist businesses, they will now be run for the benefit of the people under the watchful eye and direction of the peoples representatives; or at least those hired by the peoples representatives and accountable solely to the Leader!

Welcome to America!

Taxes wrote:

They threatened services would be curbed in California if the voters did not vote for an increase in taxes.

The only thing that happenened since the NO vote is politicians and public officials took an 18% cut in salary.

LOL! You do realize that it's only been two weeks since the special election in California, don't you?

Don't give those politicians a dime.

They threatened services would be curbed in California if the voters did not vote for an increase in taxes.

The only thing that happenened since the NO vote is politicians and public officials took an 18% cut in salary.

Let them whine all they want. Say NO, NO, and NO again.

They need to cut costs, cut salaries and above all cut their Big Fat Pensions.

That is what they will do if we don't fall for their threats that education and health care will suffer.

They remind me of the fire fighters. If you try to cut salaries, costs or pensions with those guys they tell you if your house catches fire or you are in an accident no one will show up. In that extra 10 seconds your heart will stop beating. Don't decrease our numbers from 200 to 180. Increase our numbers to 250.

What they don't tell you is that more and more people are getting heart attacks when they see their real estate tax bills? What they don't tell you is more and more people are foreclosing because they can no longer afford their real estate tax bills.

Enough taxation! Enough increase! Enough Government Waste!

Southeast Side: So Wisconsin has a slightly higher income tax. But: Wisconsin State Sales Tax: 5%-5.6%. NO tax on groceries, NO tax on preseciption drugs, 3% tax on over the counter drugs, 3% sales tax on clothing. No corruption tax. Illinois: 7% to 10% sales tax depending on where you purchase and live. EVERYTHING is taxed. And there is a HUGE corruption tax paid by individuals and business in this state. So Illinois taxed high on both income, property (real estate) and sales tax. Plus, no where in Wisconsin does the education establishment take as much money as they do from the taxpayers as Illinois. I would much rather have a tax rate similar to Wisconsin than Illinois, income tax rates not withstanding. You need to consider the big picture, it is not just about income tax. I seriously doubt anyone will believe your feeble attempt to convince them living is WI costs more in tax than IL. The issue is jobs-better paying in IL than WI however that too is in play isn't it?

Jerry Agar spoke of this issue on WGN radio last weekend. Gov. Quinn threatened that he will be forced to withhold funds from education and health care as well as cause state employees to be unemployed. This hurts the children of Illinois and creates more unemployment. Jerry sited three examples of funded programs that will not be affected if the taxes are not raised. Millions of dollars spent every year to fund the alternative fuels program, public radio and some program to protect pheasants. There are no doubt dozens of other pork programs, that have been sneaked on to some important bill, that will continue on after the government has hurt the children and the taxpayers of Illinois. These elected officials are a disgrace to the taxpayers.

You have to love it, we either have a Thom Higgin's disciple or he is posting under a different name. It doesn't matter. The problem is taxes, they are already too high - I don't care what other states are doing. Raising taxes has never helped the economy.

Forget the 50% increase ---- how about the 67% increase that also failed!

So Illinois is doing okay huh?

Have you even bothered to check the economic data coming out of this cesspool?

Are you aware of how many jobs we have lost in the past 24 months?

You think 4.5% as a State income tax rate is reasonable? Do you even fathom the affect of tax rates on jobs & growth?

Quoting the report from Ohio University, "...found that from 1998 to 2007, more than 1,100 people every day including Sundays and holidays moved from the nine highest income-tax states such as California, New Jersey, New York and Ohio and relocated mostly to the nine tax-haven states with no income tax, including Florida, Nevada, New Hampshire and Texas. We also found that over these same years the no-income tax states created 89% more jobs and had 32% faster personal income growth than their high-tax counterparts."

Ahh... I breathe a sigh of relief as my wazzoOOoooOOooOOoooooooooooo is left unmolested by the state government.

Illinois income taxes are very low - Michigan is 4.35 which is very close the the 4.5 that Quinn proposed. Wisconsin is way higher - 6.5 for most folks. Iowa is even higher.

As such - 4.5 is very reasonable.

See for yourself -
http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/228.html

"I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization."
- Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes