Just how is Naperville's arts community?

Omnia is proposing three theaters, a 2700 seat theater, a 950 seat theater and a 200 seat theater. At 2700 seats it would be the 6th largest theater in Chicago. The Oriental (Wicked) and the Cadillac (Lion King) are both smaller. The Paramount and the Rialto are smaller yet at 1600-1800 seats.

While the idea of a performing Arts Center in Naperville has merit, a 2700 seat theater is a huge challenge to pay for and operate. It is important to note that Omnia has essentially no money of their own. They want the city to give them three city owned properties for them to sell and keep the proceeds ($70 million) as well as allow the construction of 600-700 condo-town home units that they claim would generate $130 million for a TIF, with all those proceeds going to Omnia.

Additionally, they still would need an endowment for operating expenses. Even if they managed all the above, it's no guarantee they could stay solvent. The Overture in Madison Wisconsin is in default after a $205 million investment and looking for the city to take it over, and the Sears Center is in the news because their operators are looking for the Hoffman Estates to take it over, as happened a few years ago with the performing arts center in Arlington Heights.

I was the primary writer of a detailed response to Omnia for the three affected Homeowner's Associations. You can read it here; http://wow.lowtechnet.com/echo/positions

You can also download an animation of all the different structures Omnia is proposing at this link; http://www.lowtechnet.com/omnia

I agree with Thom's points about the Omnia proposal. I am surprised Omnia has been able to generate any meaningful consideration at all given the complete lack of finances for the proposed development. Does anyone have any insight on why the City has been so keen on exploring this proposal?

By Good points Thom on July 13, 2009 11:47 PM
Does anyone have any insight on why the City has been so keen on exploring this proposal?

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I agree with you and Thom.

The keenness comes from Establishment trying to take care of the Establishment. Do me a favor and I will do you a favor.... Scratch my back and I will scratch your back.

This project borders on INSANITY.

No wonder we pay 6500 dollars in real estate taxes for a 325k house while the best city to live in, throughout the USA according to CNN/Mony, Lousiville, Colorado, only pays $1590 for the same priced house.

If this Omnia project comes to life as I suspect and falls apart as I expect, the real estate tax on a 325,000 home in Naperville will be easily over 10,000 dollars annually.

As I have been saying for a very long time....it is time the taxpayers smell the Java and wake up before it is too late.

Once the Naperville Sun starts exposing what is being exposed on its blog site, the City of Naperville will be FINISHED.

Naperville needs more commuter parking spaces a lot more than another theater. I have enjoyed performances at NCHS, Pfeiffer Hall, and will go to the Wentz Concert Hall when a program is offered that appeals to me. It is UNNECESSARY and fiscally irresponsible to consider the Omnia proposal, especially in these economically challenging times.

Having read Thom's paper and the Omnia materials, I question the morals and ethics of any councilman (including the mayor) who would even consider this proposal for more than 10 seconds.

Thom

I understand you live in the neighborhood and heard you present some of these same arguments at the June 23 presentation. It is obvious you have an interest in the manner in which this area is redeveloped. The decision is whether or not to redevelop it in a manner that financially benefits all of Naperville – including you and your neighbors – or in a manner that costs all Naperville residents money, with no economic benefits.

Your scare tactics and the scare tactics of those who support you are not an appropriate way to settle and decide the future of our great city.

I urge all citizens of Naperville to support the project that will help the entire region with new jobs, more money and a greatly improved quality of life. That project is Omnia.

Land:

It is true that the “sale” of the City land to the developers could result in proceeds going to the TIF instead of to the City coffers. However, it is also true that the City could choose to get this money up front. If the city allows the money to go into the TIF, then the money will be used to help pay the bonds to be issued for two new civic assets - the underground parking garage and the Performing Arts Center. If the City chooses to keep the money and put it in the City coffers, then it will take longer to pay off the bonds that will be issued to finance the two structures. Even if the proceeds from the land stay in the TIF to pay for the parking garage and the Performing Arts Center, the City in return gets double the parking and the theater complex. Not to mention the economic stimulus and expanded tax base when the TIF is complete - to the tune of an estimate $150 million annual economic impact. So, the final land value is actually an exchange of land for City amenities--an exchange is not the same as "free".

Omnia does not reap anything – the city and the citizens reap the benefits. Nothing is given to Omnia. Omnia will not own the parking garage – the city will own the parking garage. The city also has the choice as to whether or not it wishes to own the Performing Arts Center.

The TIF funding proposed will not take any money away from the city because the current parking lots do not provide any tax money at all.

$70 million is one of many approximations of the value of the land that will be “created” by the Omnia project. The final value is dependent upon the timing of the transaction. We all know that would be lower now. The final “value” is also dependent upon what the City chooses to build on the property. This can be referred to as the “created” value.

The city has a potential value gain in their land value that is directly proportional to the density the city finally approves for the area. So – if that value is now $10 million, and the final created value from the Omnia project is $40 million, the city has “gained” $30 million. The current value of the land to the city is what it paid for that land who knows how many years ago. The basis value of the land is what would be showing up on the books of the City. The City currently uses the land for parking and did use the other property for the Public Works building. As long as the parking is at least replaced (which is what Omnia proposes do with a more valuable type of parking – an underground garage), the city has lost nothing and Omnia has taken nothing.

At the end of the TIF, the increased property taxes go to the various taxing bodies - including the schools. School district 203 is just now getting money from the Cantera TIF. That was certainly a successful plan for the City of Warrenville. The City of Naperville also profited and could profit even more if it chooses the TIF proposal of Omnia.

The city has a choice – no density gain and throw away the increased created land value (let’s say $30 million), along with the resultant civic assets (garage and the performing arts center), or choose a density and land use decide how to spend their “profits” from the new, and much larger land value. The conversion of land value is putting dollars back into another civic asset. The city is not in the profit making business. Rather, its business is to provide services and infrastructure to its citizens. If the city wants to bring in new businesses and new residents, it must also keep taxes as low as possible.

As you are aware, the city is looking at adding new parking decks and laying down new asphalt, with a potential limited number of residen. Parking lots and asphalt will not “create” any additional value, and the limited housing add a minimal value. Just building parking decks and new asphalt will cost all Naperville residents money. Staff offers a cost of $22 million for a parking deck, and states this figure does not include all costs. Do you want to pay for that, as well as any other costs incurred for the city staff proposals, in your taxes?

Will this look like downtown Chicago?

Hardly – downtown Chicago consists of many larger building than the condos proposed by Omnia. Three of the proposed condos are only about 10 stories high, with lots of green space. The other two by the water tower are lower. What is really good about the density is that the new residents will help support the current businesses and activities at the existing Fifth Avenue Station building. Lots more money will be spent into the local economy by new residents and theatre goes – Omnia estimates this could be close to $150 million annually. The new density would also provide attainable housing instead of just million dollar homes.

Developers provide the money for the housing:

Omnia does not need to provide money for construction of the housing. Omnia only needs to help identify sources of money for an endowment for operating expenses for the performing arts center. You viewed several other presentations by Omnia that provided lots more details than were discussed on June 23. You are thus aware that TIF money will be allocated to an endowment. You are also aware that Omnia intends to raise money as soon as the plan is approved by the City, and it plans to keep that original endowment from the TIF in the bank as backup. Omnia cannot apply for endowments or grants until it is an approved project. The TIF would provide the funding for the two new civic assets.

Madison, Wisconsin is not the same as Naperville, Illinois:

Madison does not have the population to draw from that Naperville has. If North Central College had a facility that could handle the types of and number of performances proposed by Omnia, the relationship would be comparable. Madison is a government and university based economy that is calendar dependent. North Central is also calendar dependent, but the rest of the Naperville area is not. Additionally, you heard many presentations form local arts groups stating their ongoing need for more performance space.

Each circumstance for any theatre is different and results are clearly dependent upon management and the demographics around the theater. It is also difficult to conjure up a situation where the Performing Arts Center proposed by Omnia would go into foreclosure. It would not be built until the money is in the TIF to support it. It is the last phase of the project, after all other parts have been built and sold.

Traffic:

As you are aware, many cars make two trips to the Downtown Naperville station now just to drop off and pick up commuters. City data states that 18% of the commuters are dropped off and picked up each and every day. Based on the city estimate of 4,000 commuters each day at the station, this means that 720 cars come in twice a day at peak times. Many of the 950 new spaces being proposed by Omnia would most likely end up being snatched up by lots of these commuters. This proposal by Omnia is for an underground, weather-protected garage, not surface parking or parking decks. It is also my understanding that the Planning Commission told the city planners to develop plans that will also add parking spaces. Look at the Traffic Study on the Omnia website at www.omniaarts.org.

Omnia would be providing enough parking spaces to remove the cars off of the side streets and Fifth Avenue. The city staff proposals continue to allow for parking on the street. It is a nightmare now during the weekday to get around there because of the cars on these streets. The Omnia garage would have entrances for right hand turns from Washington Street and also proposes methods to manage any traffic with more left turn lanes at Washington and Fifth Avenue and on Fifth Avenue itself. Any new traffic would be manageable using traffic-management techniques. These are also the same type of techniques that the city staff has been discussing.

TIF:

The TIF proposal would create a new property tax base from the proposed residences. Those taxes would pay for the underground parking garage as well as the Performing Arts Center. When the TIF funds have paid for these structures, the new property taxes will then go to the incumbent taxing bodies. Since there are no dollars being paid now by the parking lots, you do not need to be concerned that current tax dollars will be siphoned off. Additionally, Omni's financing plan has the TIF pay for the parking and the city owning the garage. The city plan would ask taxpayers to pay for any new parking. Personally, I would prefer to not have to finance something through my taxes if another successful type of funding method has already been identified. So – taxpayers either pay more taxes at TAX TIME for who knows how many years, or taxpayers receive lots more money at the end of the TIF TIME, and do not have to pay any money out of their pockets to finance the structures. The TIF also provides an endowment for the operating expenses of the Omnia Performing Arts Center.

Cantera was created by a TIF. School District 203 just received its first payment from the new money generated by Cantera. Ask Warrenville about the success of Cantera before you determine that Omnia will lead to ongoing financial issues for the city as a whole. Ask School District 203 if it would like more money from the property taxes that will be created by Omnia?

Yes, there would be lots of new residents with cars. However, the residents would also be providing attainable housing for our young people and seniors. It is also expected that many would be commuters. Since convenience retail would also be part of the Omnia proposal, these residents, as well as the current neighborhood, would be able to walk to the many of the necessities of everyday life, instead of driving. Also, the existing businesses in the Fifth Avenue Station building will have lots of new customers.

Benefits to the community:

I believe there is a really large lost opportunity cost if Omnia is not built to the tune of an estimated $150 million annual positive economic impact.

The whole city and area would benefit financially from the large economic impact of Omnia. The Children’s Museum states it has a $12 million annual positive economic impact on the economy of the area. The estimated $150 million positive annual economic impact of Omni is reasonable when compared to the Children’s Museum estimates because it is a larger project than the existing Children’s Museum.

The City would also benefit immediately because it will gain almost $1 million, annually, just from the new parking permits annually as soon as the parking garage is completed. The city will also own the parking garage.

Good Points;

I've watched the Omnia proposal pretty closely and I don't feel the city has been particularly receptive to the concept at all.

Certainly, Bev Paterson Frier and her board are very well respected members of the Naperville community and they have spent literally hundreds of thousands of dollars of their own money developing the concept, but it took the city writing a detailed memo to Omnia about a year ago, essentially outlining the steps they had to follow, that led to the public meeting Omnia hosted recently and Council's coming deliberation next month.

Omnia will receive a respectful hearing from the City Council, but nothing more. There are way too many fatal flaws to discuss here, but I commend to you the position paper that I link to in my first post, that goes into great detail from both a financial perspective and a land use perspective. For all the reasons we list, I predict that Omnia will not be approved by the City Council.

Citizen Investigative Journalist;

The primary difference between Colorado and Illinois property taxes is that a far greater portion of Colorado schools costs are funded by the state, not property taxes as we do in Illinois. Colorado also has a higher state income tax rate to help pay for it.

The key and major factor in this fiscally irresponsible proposal is Tax Increment Financing. To build such an undesirable facility in a densely populated and prosperous area flies in the face of logic and legality. Remember, TIF's deny schools much needed revenue and increase the burden on taxpayers. What Naperville does not need is a 2,700 seat theater jammed in the center of town that would have a long term negative fiscal impact on the city and likely turn into a white elephant. Besides, it would be redundant what with the new Wentz theater only a few blocks away. What is the motivation behind this far-fetched idea anyway? I enjoy the arts and the theater -- but not at this cost.

First, I'll state up front that I support the concept behind Omnia's proposal, though with significant qualifications. I am primarily concerned about the size of the theaters proposed and would like to see this and the design of the proposed condominium complex debated, with the full benefit of Omnia releasing the studies that it claims support the number and size of theaters in the Omnia proposal. However, as Thom Higgins states, "the idea of a performing arts center in Naperville has merit," and this is clearly the best site in Naperville for such a center, given its proximity to downtown and to public transit.

However, before committing public support to this proposal, I believe we need to carefully examine the pros and the cons.

One thing I would disagree with is Mr. Higgins' comment that Omnia wants the City to "give them three city owned properties." That is a mischaracterization of the proposal, which actually envisions a City-owned theatre complex on City-owned land and contemplates the development of residential and commercial properties by private developers, and not by Omnia, which is a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit. However, this misstatement aside, I agree with Mr. Higgins' basic underlying point: we should ensure that whatever happens with publicly-owned lands works to the public benefit.

I applaud Omnia for making this proposal and believe that we should treat it not as a "take it or leave it" proposal, but as the starting point for a vigorous and thoughtful public debate on the merits of bringing a fine arts facility to the downtown and making the best use of publicly owned lands. Serious attention should be paid to the impact on the surrounding neighborhoods, including the visual and environmental impact of buildings of the size proposed, and the impact on traffic.

In this respect, I would suggest that the City needs to look at the Omnia proposal in a much broader context. In today's Naperville Sun we learned that nearly $2 million in public funds are being given to the DuPage Children's Museum, which is directly across the street from the proposed Omnia site. The leadership of the Museum have already stated an interest in changing the Museum "from a private to a public entity" (Naperville Sun, 7/14/2009). In addition, in the areas directly adjacent to the proposed Omnia site there are three public parks and a two-block parcel of land presently occupied by Washington Junior High School--an underutilized facility that has seen diminishing enrollments--that could be incorporated into a more comprehensive publicly-owned complex with facilities dedicated to entertainment, cultural enhancement, and education.

Rather than tearing down the Omnia proposal, we should applaud its vision and treat it as the starting point to explore the full range of options for all the public lands in the neighborhood of the Fifth Avenue Study area. It appears that we are at a unique juncture--a large amount of land is available for development and public use north of the BNSF railway; the Children's Museum--a unique and valuable cultural amenity--has expressed an interest in becoming a public institution; and the area is bordered by three parks and a two-block parcel owned by District 203 that cry out for better public use. It is unlikely that we will ever again have an opportunity such as this.

Our public leaders can take one of two paths: they can choose to path of the the mundane, choosing to build parking decks and unexceptional housing complexes, or they can take advantage of a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to transform the area into a world-class facility dedicated to cultural enhancement, and recreation.

Citizen Investigative Journalist
is doing it again...
Try as you might, you simply cannot make a comparison between the services in what is a small town in Colorado and the city of Naperville. Of course taxes here are much higher, the amount of services, and the number of people required to provide those services are always going to make it so. Obviously. That said, our taxes are higher than is necessary. You're also making things up again, "easily over 10,000 dollars annually" - and this is based on... oh, wait. This is based on your wild guessing. That's all you do, rail and make wild guesses. For example, that the city would be FINISHED.
If you really dislike Naperville so much, CIJ, and think that the taxes are so appallingly bad, why do you stay?

As for the Omnia project, and that state of the Arts in town, I tend to be a big supporter of the arts, and think that there cannot be too many facilities or offerings that support these kinds of activities. On the other hand, they have to be arranged to be self-sustaining, and given the near total lack of funding in place for Omnia, I just don't see it happening, nor do I think it a good idea. If it does, however, you'll find me there on opening night, and many other nights as well.

I'm assuming that this is a "proposal" and everyone is flipping out about this. The Council chose to listen to this proposal for one reason or another, and that's fine by me. Heck, they're forced to listen to you chuckleheads for 3 minutes during open forum about ANY irrelevant subject you decide to come up with, and you don't complain about that.

C.I.J., please don't overreact with "the City of Naperville is finished!" Believe me, I don't defend Council at all, but for right now, they're just listening. So, sit back, enjoy your 325K home, and relax.

And finally, 30-Year Resident, don't you ever dare question the morals and ethics of Mayor Pradel, even if you're just spouting that to get attention. You benefit from the decisions that he's presided over for quite some time. So take your beef elsewhere. You don't have to like him as a politician. That's your right. Rip on Furstenau, rip on Boyajian, or whoever else, but do not dare question Pradel's integrity and character.

A point of clarification; At the June 23rd presentation I specifically asked where the remaining $70 million needed to fund the proposal would come from. An Omnia representative said it would come from the sale of city owned property.

Thus, I have a real problem with comments such as the following made above; It is true that the “sale” of the City land to the developers could result in proceeds going to the TIF instead of to the City coffers. However, it is also true that the City could choose to get this money up front.

It is way past time for could when we are talking about such huge sums of money. If they want the sale proceeds to go to the city, fine, but then they need to make public a pro forma illustrating how they would successfully service that debt.
According to the National Endowment for the Arts, December 2008 report, All America’s a Stage, earned income (ticket sales and facility rentals) only contributes, on average, 52% of revenue, with remaining 48%, mostly contributed by foundations and individuals. Has Omnia lined up commitments for funding a $70 million mortgage, as well as the typical operating deficits? Additionally, most performing arts centers receive a certain amount of funding from the city in which it resides, will Naperville be asked to contribute, if so, how much?

The claim of $150 million in annual economic impact is highly suspect. Omnia is claiming $42 million in economic impact for the Performing Arts Center, although elsewhere it claims annual revenue of less than $4 million. Worse, they claim $89 million in annual economic impact from, at projected maximum, 670 residential units. This works out to $132,800 per unit, per year. The American’s for the Arts, Arts and Economic Prosperity Calculator, using Omnia’s stated $4 million in revenue and an assumed 80,000 in attendance ($50.00 avg. ticket cost) returns an economic impact of $3.38 million in household income(jobs), $239,000 in Local revenue, and $264,000 in State revenue. For further information see their extensive, 300 page, Arts and Economic Prosperity III report.

The theaters in Joliet and Aurora could not operate without taxpayer subsidies. Here at North Central College, we're fortunate enough to provide excellent arts programming to the citizens of Naperville and visitors and absorb operating losses because our fine arts centers are also classrooms for our students. If every other fine arts center in the region operates at a loss, why would Omnia be any different? Naperville taxpayers deserve to know up front what the risks are and what the costs would be. For starters, Naperville cannot attract Broadway-style shows until they have been off the Great White Way for many years, because Chicago theaters have a monopoly on those touring productions. I attended the Omnia presentation, and I was left with the impression that many fine arts organizations who would use Omnia's spaces think they'd be able to use them any time they wanted, at no cost. Who would pay for their use? And the question of who would operate Omnia's theater remains unresolved--though we got a clear indication during the presentation when it was stated "This would be a city project," and the city planner quickly pointed out that to date there has been absolutely no city support for this venture whatsoever. Naperville citizens need to ask themselves--do we really want to get into the theater business?

Cal Roesner –

Omnia is proposing this newer and larger facility because, at 605 seats, the new NCC auditorium is too small for the staging envisioned by Omnia.

***********

I like Michael Boomgarden’s take on this—that it’s a good starting point. The idea is intriguing, but I fear the density Omnia envisions will doom the proposal. Traffic in the area is already at the breaking point.

T.B.

GJC--

Thanks for pointing out some of the fallacies being touted as truth by the naysayers. I don't have a dog in this fight, except as someone who lives within a few hundred feet of the proposed complex. As such, my primary interest is in seeing the topic debated openly and honestly, a process that will hopefully result in what is best for the community.

In pursuit of that goal, Omnia should immediately open its records and studies up for public review. While I have no reason to doubt Omnia's public assertions, the failure to do so only creates a cloud of suspicion over the accuracy of Omnia's claims and projections. I was at the meeting. Omnia said it would happen. The sooner, the better.

Conversely, those who have presented knee-jerk opposition to the Omnia proposal need to be a bit more honest in their criticism and step away from the nasty innuendo, personal attacks (For instance, "question[ing] the morals and ethics" of our mayor and council members), and outright misrepresentations (As an example, the baseless assertion that Omnia has proposed that the City "give" Omnia three parcels of land). Those ham-fisted scare tactics only serve to discredit those who have legitimate concerns.

What I fear will happen is this: While we're all flaying about, hiding the ball, speaking mistruths, and trying to scratch one another's eyes out, the area in question will succumb to the mediocre and mundane. The City will build another ugly parking deck or two, foregoing millions in potential revenue; the Children's Museum will fold; and the underused parks and school district land will continue to remain scruffy, underutilized public assets.

I do not claim, nor do I believe, that the present Omnia proposal is perfect in every respect. But we stand at a fork in the road: one direction takes us to a dull and mediocre place occupied by parking garages, asphalt and cookie cutter condo buildings. The other direction holds the promise of a world-class venue for recreation, education, and the arts.

Which do you choose?

I find it interesting that no one is talking about a middle ground. It seems so simple and logical that the real solution is for the city to develop a mixed use facility containing large amounts of daily fee parking, ground level retail, and upper floor residences. If anyone has traveled in the NE, great commuter cities such as Stamford, CT et al have facilities just like this. They meet the large demand for parking by both commuters and customers of the retail establishments. The less defined retail space allows for quick changes as the world changes with time, and the residents get a spectacular view and an easier commute.

While I am a huge supporter of the arts, there seems to be no need for a theater. If this Omnia Group is really interested in the arts, how about a visual arts facility? A good fine arts museum is a rare thing in the suburbs.....

I guess using common sense is not popular these days.....

T.B.--

I appreciate you chiming in with a bit of support for what I feel has been lacking in the discussion to date: an appreciation for the fact that best use of the land in question may not yet have been discovered.

What we need most at this point is an overall vision for what is best for the community. A hundred years ago or so, Daniel Burnham, arguably our nation's greatest city planner, wrote "Make no little plans. They have no magic to stir men's blood and probably will not themselves be realized."

Placing the current debate in the context of Burnham's philosophy, one can see the perils of "little plans" that are expressed in terms of parking garage capacities, traffic density studies, and ticket revenues. We could take a cue from the Burnham Plan for Chicago, which adopted the approach of designating certain lands for public use, and which has come to its full fruition over the past century. Neither Burnham nor any other visionary could have envisioned Gehry's design for the Pritzker Pavilion. No citizen of the early 20th century could have predicted the existence of a lakefront aquarium, or the emergence of the Grant Park Jazz Festival. But, having provided the visionary framework for public use of Chicago's lakeshore, Burnham laid the foundation for these world-class attractions.

Right now, it seems that Naperville is mired in self-flagellation over "little plans" that lend themselves to endless--and ultimately pointless--debate over a vast landscape of minutiae. What we need to advocate is that, first and foremost, our City adopt a cohesive forward-thinking vision for our public lands. And to be clear, those public lands should include all the contiguous downtown properties controlled by the City, the Park District, and District 203. Once that occurs, then, in due course, the pieces will naturally fall into place.

So much self-serving misinformation. There is no comaprison between services in Louisville CO and Naperville, but many of the Phoenix area suburbs are similar and their taxes are 50-75% less than ours. That's due to lack of corruption, waste, and union labor rates, and the fact that they don't build grandiose $150 million high schools. Their schools are plain to look at, but well equipped and functional. Traffic in the area at the breaking point? Humbug!!! The streets east of Washington between Benton and Ogden are nearly deserted most of the day. The only times there is a little traffic is on weekday mornings and evenings when commuters are moving about. One of the biggest impediments to any kind of progress is the small-minded NIMBY who will lie and exaggerate to prevent any sort of change from happening. Omnia may not be the best option, but having all of that city-owned property consumed by single-level surface parking lots is much worse. Omnia got people thinking, as demonstrated by some of these comments. Maybe a huge theater doesn't make sense, but the parking, retail, and residential components of the plan are worth a closer look.

The Naperville City Council ought not to walk away from the Omnia center project as proposed... they ought to RUN AWAY!

Financing this project via a TIF district puts virtually all of the risk for this on the taxpayer. The city council might consider counteroffering Omnia that they will reconsider under a different financing method ie convential financing. Omnia comes up with the funding, Naperville takes the offer under consideration. Period.

Naperville would like to think that it is the center of the Chicagoland universe and it would stand to draw theatre and show goers from around the entire area to a new venue located here. That is seriously errored thinking. And even if the draw was successful, think about the location of the venue. Could the intersection of Ogden and Washington (closest major arteries between the proposed location and I88) really stand up to thousands of additional vehicles?

Naperville ought to go back to the drawing board and get busy thinking up new ways to attact tax generating enterprises that put people to work instead of lights-in-the-sky showbiz dreams!

This massive proposal is such "pie in the sky" that I cannot believe the council would even remotely consider it. First off, Omnia wants the city to give them the land they need, which alone is an insult considering it belongs to the taxpayers/residents. If this is such a viable area, then they should get private backing to purchase it.

The city has had to lay people off and financially cut-back like the rest of us, so I cannot see the council entering into any agreement with this group that puts the city on the hook (for anything) if it does not make it. We are already paying for the carillon, which was not the original intention of that proposal and the city should not have never agreed to the project in the first place. Those days are over!

I do not know all of how a TIF works, but I do know that our school district would not benefit from collecting any tax money because of the TIF for many years. This is especially troubling since we have endured two substantial property tax increases since 2002 and the district does not have an endless stream of money. If this project became reality, then the school district should realize a benefit now, not years from now. I may not agree with Mr. Higgins about everything concerning D203, but we can both agree the more revenue stream our district has (from the sources involved in this project alone), the better for D203 and the residents.

I am a young Naperville native as an alumn of Naperville Central and now I am going into my last year at North Central College. I love the city, it is a great place for an education and also a place for opportunities. However, when I heard the idea for the Omnia Theater I was not too keen on the project.

I have watched Naperville go from a small farm town to a big city in less than twenty years and I even witnessed the construction of Wentz Concert Hall right across the street from my dorm room last year. Wentz Concert Hall is a beautiful building and it has done a lot of good for the North Central and Naperville community, but I still think Wentz is too big for the corner it is on.

The Omnia Theater would be too much for Naperville. As a former commuter at North Central and an employee of Downtown Naperville, there is not enough parking even with the new parking garage. I do not know if the city is aware of this or not, but over the years Naperville residents have stopped attending major Naperville events such as Ribfest because they cannot find a decent parking spot in their own city. If Naperville builds the Omnia, there are going to be more issues. Also, Naperville has plenty of places to go see a performing arts events already. Whether it is at Wentz, in Aurora, Joliet, or even Chicago, there is always a theater nearby. I also agree with the Naperville Sun with regards to taking away potential revenue from Wentz Concert Hall and from our surrounding cities' theaters.

Naperville has a good heart and its intentions are good for looking into the Omnia, but this is not the right time nor the place for another large theater to go up. Naperville is not in dire need of another performing arts building.

As a resident of Naperville for 39 years and a huge supporter of the arts, I ask the Mayor and City Council to reconsider Omnia Arts’ proposal.

Initially, I thought it was a wonderful idea, however, after further review, I, personally, cannot justify why the City of Naperville NEEDS a performing arts center at the taxpayers’ expense. Building Omnia is just the beginning of what it takes to keep a theater viable. Can they guarantee fully booked venues as well as sold-out shows? I’m sure if you asked the managers of the surrounding arts centers, it’s not as easy as it seems…and is incredibly costly. This is just too great of a risk to take…especially in these uncertain economic times. Just because we can build it, doesn't mean we should.

I also feel as though building another performing arts center will over saturate the existing market and “take food out of the mouths” of our surrounding theater/performing arts communities (The Paramount, The Rialto, Drury Lane, McAninch, Pfeiffer and Wentz Concert Hall) at the taxpayer’s expense. It would break my heart if this “multiplex” even made a dent in any of these theater’s profits. Just yesterday, I took my daughters to the Paramount to see “Aladdin Jr.” and my oldest daughter said she LOVES this theater and would like to perform there someday. I, personally, prefer and ENJOY taking my family to these gold-leafed landmark theaters such as The Paramount, Rialto and Pfeiffer…it is all part of the traditional theater experience.

AJCinD203 wrote: "Omnia wants the city to give them the land they need, which alone is an insult considering it belongs to the taxpayers/residents."

Not true . . . and not even close to being true. I think most of us welcome debate on the merits, but making up facts does nothing to advance the discussion.

Colorado

By Bankrate.com

State income tax

Colorado's state income tax rate is a flat 4.63 percent of your federal taxable income, regardless of your income level. More on Colorado taxes can be found in the tabbed pages below.

Personal income tax

The Colorado income tax rate is a flat 4.63 percent of your federal taxable income, regardless of income level. State law allows for the rate to be temporarily reduced to 4.5 percent if the budget meets certain targets.

Sales tax

Colorado's state sales tax is 2.9 percent on retail sales.

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Everyone is wrongfully assuming here that Louisville, Colorada has low real estate tax rates because the state has high sales tax and high income tax rates that compensate for such expenditures as schools...NOT TRUE.

My research shows otherwise.

Bankrate.com reports that Coloradao Sales tax is only 2.9%. This is much lower than Illinois Sales Tax. Louisville adds on 3.375% to the 2.9% state sales tax. City of Naperville charges downtown merchants an additional 3.5% in taxes.( 1% incorporated in the state sales tax, 1% is the cultural tax and 1.5% is for the parking deck garages.)

Now, the State of Illinos is pushing for a 4.5% income tax which will only put a small dent in the budget deficit. To eliminate the budget deficit and pension deficit fully, much more than that is needed according to those on both sides of the issue.

In comparison, Colorado has an income tax of a minimum of 4.5% whcih is EQUAL to the proposed Illinios income tax and a maximum of 4.63%.

If one was to combine the state sales tax and state income tax of Colorado with Illinois, Colorado would be significantly lower.

Top that with the fact the town voted best in the USA only has a real estate tax equal to one fourth of Naperville and one can easily see something is wrong in Naperville.

I know you are all in denial but the Big Fat Pension system in both Naperville and Illinois is cause of our problems. The root of our heavy taxation. Letting public officials retire at ages 50-52 with 75% of their final and highest salary is the root of the problem. Giving public officials raises and promotions at their retirement parties increases the pension costs and thus increases the burden of taxation on the residents.

Now back to Omnia. It seems like we are being stuck with 2 million from the Children's Museum. That will increase taxes. If this Omnia Extravaganza fails that will also increase taxes by much more than 2 million obviously. Ten of millions in my humble belief.

I saw the pictures of this project that were posted by Mr. Higgins. They are beautiful. I would love to see this project built but not with one single penny of taxpayer funds....with no rescue plan from the taxpayers.

If this project can truly be profitable, than let private investors build it. Private investors know it will not be profitable and would never build it.

Mr. Ted Slowick works for North Central College and knows their Performing Arts center that only seats 605 is not profitable. They can subsidize it and justify it by using it for classroom study. My freshman math class in college had 600 students in it. So this makes sense. NCC also has some very wealthy charitable alumni donors. How many charitable donors those the City of Naperville have? My guess is ZERO....ZILCH! We, the taxpayers, are the charitable donors. We are giving a substantial portions of our cultural fund sales tax to charities directly and indirectly. No one is giving us anything despite our huge deficits in more than one arena.

But how are we going to subsidize a 2700 seat theater? That is a lot of seats to fill up. It is a complete gamble that people will choose to come to Naperville instead of going to Chicago or Aurora or Joliet that provide gambling after the theaters let out.

As Ted said almost every theater in the suburbs is operating in the negative. Cities and donors are funding them.

The bottom line build it if you have the money and are willing to take this massive risk. But please don't ask for taxpayer money and expect a bail-out as many businesses connected with the city expect when things go wrong.

Look at what happend to PigFest this year. They lost 50.19% of their attendees in one year and took a financial hit that has not been disclosd yet despite massive subsidies by both the City of Naperville and the Park District. Imagine the dire straits they would be in if the City of Naperville did not skim 100,0000 dollars from our cultural sales tax fund and give it to the PigFest without taxpayer permission or approval to use for NAPERVILLE POLICE OT.

I smell a rat with this Omnia Project. Establishment folks want to build it and they want their connections and buddies in City Hall to subsidize it for them. They want the Establishment folks who run this town to support the Establishment folks who want to build Omnia.

I am sure Omnia officials will return the favor to City officials by employing their children and relatives...by scratching their backs and many other things for a year or two.

And then when it all blows up everyone will wash his and her hands clean.

Right now the City of Naperville needs to take less risk and save money. They need to find a way to fund the $61.4 million police and fire pension deficits that I guarantee will grow this Sept. when the numbers are disclosed, even though the State of Illinois has ORDERED the City of Naperville to reduce these deficits year by year until 2033.

We struggled to meet our budget last year. We had an $11.5 million shortfall. Unfortunately, 43 city employees were laid off or positions eliminated.

How can a City with such problems and taxes 4 times what they should be undertake such insane risks?

People on this blog site in general are not willing to do any research or investigative reporting. They are only willing to attack the messenger who brings the truth to them.....they seem to be in ultimate denial.

You got the facts now on Colorada sales tax, real estate tax and state income tax. Do you all still think Naperville is an efficient city? Does anyone believe that our City Officials and City Council Members can make coherent decisions?

Do our public officials understand this may simply be another fleecing of the taxpayers?

I say NO and NEVER to this proposal.

"making up facts does nothing to advance the discussion"

You must be new around here.

For Mr. Boomgarden;

We both seem to have been at the June 23rd meeting. It was clear to me, in response to my question of how will they fund the $70 million needed in addition the $130 million TIF, the Omnia representative clearly stated that the sale of the city owned properties would be used to yield that amount.

Considering the above, it seems more than fair to state that Omnia is expecting the city to give them the property for free.

Seldom agree with Thom on $ matters but this time I do. Omnia is not something government should be investing in, especially now. If the project can fund itself, so be it. Sorry Thom but the NIMBY argument does not hold water. But no government entity should be spending any money on this misadventure. And by the way, someone claimed the Childrens Museum generates some hilarious sum of money for the local economy in an earlier post. Give me a break. That place will be gone in a year or two. It will be on to its next host town because it is another white elephant government should not be funding. We are going to have to mobilize to make sure that the city leaders know that there will be opposition to the project and those who support it. I still believe the Mayor will be very leery of ths caper. Leery even though he may know some of these Omnia players since they were operating an organ and piano shop in an old converted gas station years ago.

Just how is Naperville's Arts Community isn't the important question. This question can only be answered within the context of supply and demand within the greater metropolitan area. Right now there is more supply than demand. It would be interesting to look at the other nearest large scale performing art centers and study their occupancy statistics during the boom years prior to the crash to see just how much of a demand there is under ideal circumstances. Don't give us any BS about projected growth either. We can talk about future growth WHEN the recession is over.

What will also be important to know is the business plan being advanced by OMNIA. Their plan is going to have to be able to balance their books and be profitable on some kind of anticipated occupancy percentage. If OMNIA fails to attract crowds equal to or greater than the break even point everyone in Naperville better be prepared for OMNIA to be appearing before the city council, hat in hand, just like the carillon folks looking for the taxpayer to bail them out. Clearly the city council needs to hire some experts to impartially evaluate the OMNIA business plan, their revenue streams, and break even points.

We only have to look to the current economic mess we all are in to realize that most of the MBA experts and their business plans in the past decade have been mostly a fraud perpetrated on the American public. City council needs to tread very, very carefully on this one.

TO: Michael Boomgarden

We were unable to attend the public meeting Omnia had a couple of weeks ago but my folks did (I have been following the project in the Sun). Omnia stated that they looked at other property in other communities and along I-88, but have no money to purchase private property. The only way for this project to come to fuition is for the City to give them the land in question in the Fifth Ave. Study. Apparently, that is how it was presented.

I read your statement to Thom Higgins above. You state that the envision is this development on city owned land, with the city owning the theatre complex as well. Fine. I read this as the city owning the land, and letting Omnia use it to construct this massive development. Still sounds to me like giving public land for private use. If this project did not pay its way through the years, will Omnia remove all of the development so the city can have the land back for redevelopment? Between the land and the complex, seems that the city/us the taxpayers are on the hook if it fails.

The carillon project (which I was never in favor of because the city ended up having to pay to finish it) is one thing at $5 million (twice the amount over budget the last I knew). This is entirely something else at over $200 million. I will re-state that if this is such a viable area, then let them get private backing to purchase the land like any other business would have to.

Too bad that 'the arts' are one of the first frivolous things axed in a down economy.

How many people have the extra money come this next Holiday to go see a high 2-digit / low 3 digit cost per seat to see yet another Nutcracker?

Given the state of this economy and the debt that is out there not just at the Govt level, but also the personal level: I think this is a very dumb idea right now.

The revenue projections are complete and baseless bunk, IMO.

Are they out of their minds! Unless they have a deal with Live nation or Jam Productions, which will probably be bought out by Live Nation soon...,they need to keep out of this business.

I promoted concerts for over a decade and just having to deal with Jam was bad enough to get quality acts (back then 80's 90's). Now with Live Nation taking over the entire worlds acts it's an impossibility to get any worth while acts to fill the Theater. Sorry, it sounds like play to pay once again in the Burbs! I sure it'll look nice sitting there vacant. And I'm sure their projections on paper will make them a lot of money if the council is fooled into spending that kind of funds on something that isn't going to work! Who's really going to benefit from this deal? Shodeen?

I've produced shows with David Bowie, Bon Jovi, Cheap Trick, Metallica, etc. The shows I got back in those days 80's-90's were few and far between! Now it's impossible! Just ask Diana Martinez, executive director of the Paramount! She has her hands full as it is (trying to get any acts!)!

I handled all of radio personality Jonathan Brandmeier's live shows with "Johnny and the Leisure Suits" and at the same time Steve Dahl and his band "Steve Dahl and Teenage Radiation". So don't anyone tell me I don't know what I'm talking about!

The Paramount and the Realto are having a tough enough time going up against the 4,400 seat theatre in Rosemont. You just can't get the acts. Diana Martinez, executive director should hall ass over to the Star Theatre and cut a deal where as what ever the Star buys (in the way of shows there 3,500 capacity, the Paramount would automatically get) I've done a few shows at the Star Theatre (formerly Holiday Star theatre in IN.)

My suggestion: get a hold of Live Nation or Jam and make them a partner (or forget it) Trust me though...they will eat you alive. Jam just won a $60 million suit against Clear Channel (now Live Nation for their concert division - they had to separate being it became apparent that it was a monopoly and they [Clear Channel interfered with Jams sports contracts) Google it!

Now Mayor Weisner (what an oxymoron name for this Mayor), is putting together land to build a 6,500 capacity amphitheatre! It's unbelievable what's going on!

Valor Productions

Chip Valor

Thom Higgins wrote:

"They want the city to GIVE THEM three city owned properties for them to sell and keep the proceeds."

and

"[I}n response to my question . . . the Omnia representative clearly stated that the SALE of the city owned properties would be used to yield that amount. . . ."

Mr. Higgins--

I think that the questions you raise about the adequacy of funding are questions that we--and the City Council--should ask. But, as I think you can see from your quotes above, your own characterization of Omnia's funding proposal is, at best, confusing. First, you state that Omnia "want[s] the city to GIVE THEM three city owned properties," then you acknowledge that Omnia's actual position is not that anyone is being given property, but that funding for the Omnia Center, which is envisioned as a publicly owned asset, would be partially funded by the City's "sale of the city owned properties."

I'd respectfully submit that your characterization of the the Omnia proposal as one involving a gift of $70 million of "city owned properties" is seriously misleading, though I'm sure it was not your intent to mislead anyone. Whether Omnia's financial projections make sense is the central issue of concern, but the Omnia proposal does not involve any form of "gift."

Having said that, I reiterate my earlier statements that the public discourse on this proposal would be best served by seeing Omnia release the full text of all of the studies it has commissioned. Only then will we be able to judge if Omnia's cost and income projections hold up to scrutiny.

I am among those who, like you, supports the concept of an Arts Center. While I am optimistic that such a center could work on the site in question, I remain to be convinced that a venue of the size and scope proposed by Omnia would be viable or desirable from the perspective of its impact on the neighborhood. Conversely, with respect to the City planning staff (which was presented with a project of limited scope) nothing emerging from the City rises above the mundane.

Mr. Higgins, you are obviously interested in the welfare of the neighborhood, even though our perspectives may differ. I'd ask, what do you believe should be done with the properties in question? All I've heard from you thus far is criticism, and not any positive recommendations or proposals. I'd ask you--and all those who feel that Omnia is not the right answer--to share your thoughts on how to make the best use of this publicly-owned land. Maybe we can advance the ball a bit by sharing our ideas.

Please, do not put any of my tax dollars at risk for a performing arts center. I really don't care if it's built with private dollars. If the backers can find private funding and think it's worth the risk, go ahead, but please, please, please, don't gamble with my tax dollars. This type of project has not worked in the past. The Children's Museum can't survive on it's own, the carillon can't survive on its own, why would this project work? If the backers are so certain it will work, they should have no trouble finding the money in the private sector. That they can't is prima facia evidence that the risks of failure are very, very high. Again, not with my tax dollars, please.....

People on this blog site in general are not willing to do any research or investigative reporting. They are only willing to attack the messenger who brings the truth to them.....they seem to be in ultimate denial.

C.I.J.
Spending your day on Google doesn't make you a researcher or "investigative journalist," so don't hurt yourself patting yourself on the back.

Why don't we identify all of the cities in the area including Chicago that may be threatened by this and ask them to send us money so we won't build it.

Then we can use those funds to pay for the last great community project the Carillon... That wasn't suppose to cost us money either...

Oh wait, it really doesn't its funded through the SECA fund so it costs anyone money who shops in Naperville...

AJCinD203 wrote:

"Omnia stated that they looked at other property in other communities and along I-88, but have no money to purchase private property. The only way for this project to come to fuition is for the City to give them the land in question in the Fifth Ave. Study. Apparently, that is how it was presented."

AJC--

It's too bad you missed the meeting. I think it provided a lot of useful information. In my view, it allayed some concerns and raised others. But your understanding of the plan is not what was presented at the public meeting.

It's important to distinguish between Omnia, the organization, and Omnia, the Performing Arts Center. The Omnia organization itself has created some of this confusion by not distinguishing more clearly between the two, and it appears that some of the opponents of the proposal have seized on this point of confusion to intentionally mislead the general public. Some opponents have suggested that the individuals behind the proposal are either going to profit themselves or have asked the City go give them free land. If that's your understanding of the proposal, someone has fed you bad information.

Here's what happend at the public meeting: The Omnia organization presented itself as a not-for-profit whose only function has been to try to bring the concept of a Performing Arts Center to fruition (indeed, their IRS Form 990s reveal this to be the case). As a not-for-profit, they solicited donations to commission studies and put together a proposal. The Omnia Performing Arts Center is something that was posited as a complex that would be publicly owned, if the City buys into that concept.

But, the money has to come from somewhere--Omnia doesn't have a pile of money and, as best as I can discern, doesn't necessarily want to actually own anything. In fact, that was made very clear--the performing arts center would ideally be City-owned, with the City financing its costs through the TIF and the sale of city-owned parcels to private developers.

Would the City sell those parcels at their full market value? Hopefully, yes. Would the developers who buy those parcels make money? Hopefully, yes. But the Omnia organization is not a developer and made it clear that they don't have the faintest clue who those developers would be; they're just a bunch of folks trying to convince the City to leverage valuable and underused public assets in a way to allow the City to build a performing arts center.

Again, I am not someone who's accepted the Omnia proposal, hook, line and sinker; I like the general concept, but also have some significant concerns. However, the general concept is simple and it makes perfect sense: selling unused and underutilized public properties to finance the creation of publicly-owned assets that would be of greater use to the community.

It troubles me that some of those opposed to the proposal choose not to challenge the Omnia plan on its merits, but to make up facts and engage in fear-mongering. Only when those fictions are discarded can we begin to intelligently debate the correct path to follow.

Michael,

I’m sorry I do not see any conflict in my statements. We are talking about three city owned parcels (Metra owns part of the lot at 5th and Washington as well). I feel it is completely accurate to say that Omnia is asking the city to give them these three properties for free, allow Omnia to sell them, and allow Omnia to retain the proceeds. Heck, two of these parcels would be sold to developers for housing only. We can discuss whether the asset of the performing art center is a fair trade for the property, but it is clear that the city would be giving Omnia these three parcels. Lastly, I will state the chances of the City of Naperville being willing to own Omnia is far, far, less than zero.

What about the Boecker property for sale at $6+million, where does that money come from? Omnia has to have their property for the Condo/TIF scheme to work.

I know the Omnia people are sincere, but in the end they want to build a performing art center on land they do not own, with other peoples money. It’s as simple as that. They have essentially no money, and that’s where they go wrong.

As to my thoughts on what should happen, to my mind the first question that needs to be answered is how many commuter parking spaces does the city want to provide and where. The Park Addition Homeowners Assn, made a presentation at the joint TAB & Plan Commission meeting earlier this spring. Working from staff’s initial recommendations, we suggested a land swap with the Boecker family, taking the back of the Boecker property for the proposed parking deck, and giving them equal footage fronting 5th from Center to Washington. We used the example of Main Street Promenade for the style of building fronting 5th –with the center arch as driveway access to the deck behind, the building hiding the parking deck behind.

For the Kroehler lot we would like to see lower density that what staff proposed, putting single family houses there. However, if that was accepted, we felt that the old DPW site could support a higher density that the 8 units an acre that staff proposed as a trade off.

It is clear from all I have witnessed during the study there is zero interest from staff in seeing 130’ 13 story condo towers as Omnia proposes.

There’s a lot more, but this is the best I can do today.

There’ve been a few comments about not using a TIF to finance this project, but am I correct in assuming that since the property is currently city-owned it’s not generating any tax revenue right now?

T.B.

By Furstenau's Backhand on July 15, 2009 10:45 AM

C.I.J.
Spending your day on Google doesn't make you a researcher or "investigative journalist/"

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I went to the PigFest not once but twice and stayed over an hour after closing to observe the incompetence of the operation.

That is what a Citizen Investigative Journalist does. Former Host Ted Slovick and Moderator Jim Lynch asked us to be Citizen Journlists and I am simply taking them up on their recommendations.

I have also spent untold hours snooping around in other places where I see improprieties by City Officials and have reported them on this blog site.

And besides googling which I think is an excellent tool for research, I also went to the Naperville Public libraries and studied the corruption in City Hall in the 1990's exposed by the Napergate Man and his 3500 supporters.

When you study the history of this town, you begin to understand what is wrong with this town. You see the mistakes they made with the Carillon, the Children's Museum, the abuse of the 1% cultual tax, the 10 million dollar Napergate Trials and the 2 million Furstenau dismissals.....etc....

This all adds up. This explains why our taxes are 4 times those in Louisville, Colorado which is now the best place to live in America according to Mony/CNN.

Many came here on this blog site and stated it must be in Colorado that states sales tax and state income tax are higher to allow real estate taxes to be so low in a city. Well, yes I googled and I found out that sales tax is much lower in Colorado and income tax is about the same as in Illinois.

As one blogger said, our high taxes are the result of corruption at the local and state levels. A bigger city should have lower taxes due to economies of scale that factor in.

Did you read what Chip Valor wrote above? This Omnia Project is a disaster in the making. He is in the business and knows what he is talking about.

Did you what Sam wrote above? "If the backers are so certain it will work, they should have no trouble finding the money in the private sector."

The city has no reason to be in private business. If you reviewed the Napergatge Ads as I did, you see a pattern in this city of Establishment Public trying to help Establishment Private at Non-Establishment taxpayer expense. The Establisment takes advantage of the high turnover in this city to abuse the current taxpayers and enrich themselves. The Napergate Man and his followers spent a dozen years exposing it and documented it in a series of 44 full page Napergate Ads in the Naperville Sun. I initially thought I was reading fiction but when I was done, I realized it was all non-fiction and true.

Where were you when Wehrli Public bailed out his cousin Wehrli Private in the Ponds of Hobson West fiasco for 2.5 million dollars after he bought a flood prone property that decreased in value with the real estate collapse? Where were you when City Attorney Margo Ely ruled this was NOT a conflict of interest and allowed the cousin to bail out his cousin with his council vote?

I own a home and properties in this town and I am sick and tired of taxes going up to subsidize the friends and relatives of the Establishment in power. Every month I have to deal with my renters about the high taxes in this town. At least I can tell them I am trying to expose the improprieties and reduce the taxes.

I may not be a good Citizen Journalist but I am trying. If you want to read the works of an Excellent Citizen Journalist go to the Naperville Public Library and read the works of the Napergate Man. He truly gave people an insight as to how this town works. If we did not have high turnover in this town, and still had the Napergate Era residents in this town, they would have packed City Chambers and this Omnia Proposal would have been defeated swiftly and decisively....it would have been imploded in City Hall and all these ridiculous, albeit beautiful, architectural plans would have been sent sailing down the DuPage River for the Aflac Ducks to laugh at.

The City of Naperville and its officials have been emboldened by the retirement of the Napergate Man and are back to their old improper ways. I guess the saying that a tiger will never change his stripes appear to be true.

Who had 12:45 for the first Napergate reference? You're a winner!

Thom--

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on planning for these area. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on how we'd characterize the financial aspects of the Omnia proposal. My view is that it's not a give-away if the money is going back into a publicly owned asset. But, as I've previously stated, while I accept the word of the Omnia representatives as the honest people I believe them to be, I am not satisfied in accepting Omnia's synopsis of its plans without them making public all of the studies they hae commissioned. To me, that's sort of like a jury basing its decision on the lawyers' final arguments, without the benefit of having seen the evidence.

There are a couple of points on which I think we can agree: I don't think that 13-story towers have a place in that neighborhood. As you may know, I live on the west side of Washington street, and I would not be happy to suddenly find myself living in the shadow of buildings of that size; I don't think my neighbors to the east should have to face that prospect either. Additionally, I think that the plans have to respect the historic value of the old Kroehler furniture factory--no, it's not an architectural masterpiece, but it is an important part of Naperville's history that has achieved a level of financial viability as a mixed-use building--let's not obscure it with a row of Coldwater Creek/Eddie Bauer/Starbucks establishments. Fundamentally, we ought to adhere to the principle that future development should make the lives of the area's current residents better, and not diminish their quality of life.

The size of the Arts Center is a point on which I am willing to consider the findings and opinions of the experts, though I'm not yet convinced this area can support the addition of theatres with an aggregate capacity of nearly 4,000 seats. In this respect, I find the comparisons to the theatre in Madison, a city with which I am very familiar, to be of no validity; the demographics and proximity to potential customers are simply a universe apart. As for the strident criticisms erupting from the North Central College campus, I give their criticisms less than zero credibility--they are clearly reacting out of the fear of competition and want to be the City's big dog when it comes to artistic venues.

If you'll indulge me a criticism of your plans, it seems like they're a bit mundane. Traffic decks eat up land, fail to generate meaningful revenue, and are an aesthetic nightmare. In that respect, this aspect of the Omnia proposal seems vastly better--submerging the parking below ground level, and placing a building with significant utility above it.

Like you, I now tire. But I hope that the good people of Naperville will remain open to this innovative proposal, accept its best aspects, and work to refine those aspects they find objectionable. This could be something tremendously positive for our neighborhood and our City if scaled appropriately, financed responsibly, and designed with an eye toward greatness.

We should not advocate or accept the mediocre.

Please note that Tim Hoggins is not Thom Higgins.

I believe this person chose his handle to be deceptive.

Take your "research" to the City Council themselves at a meeting (1st & 3rd Tuesdays of the month). I'm sure they will be happy to address your allegations of corruption, face to face.

Or better yet, run for City Council. Or, just move to another town. I'm not certain you understand how good you have it in Naperville.

I have also spent untold hours snooping around in other places where I see improprieties by City Officials and have reported them on this blog site.

lol...you're awesome! Tell me what you saw. Did they evolve into any stories? I want to know. Expose the city officials then. Stop talking about it and do it.

Although, I am a little concerned that you spend your time snooping around to stalk city officials. Quite scary. With all that free time, you should at least be working a second job to help pay for those high city taxes.

How much of your taxes went to pay for Huey Lewis & the News? I thought they were outstanding.

The Need for Performance Space

We appreciate the interest and responses of bloggers about the Omnia Project. It is very kind that the Paramount in Aurora stated they did not look upon us as competition, but looked forward to working together and creating synergy together. That is also the goal of Omnia.

Some have remarked that we don’t need any more theatres. But that is not the point. It is incorrect to point out the neighboring theatres. Yes, we have neighboring theatres with excellent performances. It is nice that they have their theatres, but the need is for the use of the performance space by local arts groups. We need this in our own town.

The lack of community performance space is what started this entire project. Omnia commissioned a feasibility study to find out if it was needed. We were very surprised at how truly great the need was for performance space. Every theatre we have locally is owned by a school, and the arts groups find it nearly impossible to book them.

Also, they are less than adequate by today’s standards. Pfeiffer Hall at 1050 seats has served the community well since 1925, when the population of Naperville was about 5,000. We have long since outgrown Pfeiffer. A large stage is 80% of the importance of a theatre, not the number of seats (which is a very small part of the cost of a theatre).

The local arts groups want a stage large enough so that they can do their productions. Our children need this facility. Young Naperville Singers would like to host a conference and invite other choirs to come and perform. That requires a huge stage and lots of seats. They are very strong supporters for Omnia. They have had to hold performances in Bolingbrook, Aurora, Romeoville, Oswego and Joliet as no facility locally was available. http://omniaarts.org/napervillesingers

The Xilin Association hosts Chinese performances and they require a much larger stage than what is available. They have had to go to other towns with less than adequate facilities, because nothing is available locally. http://omniaarts.org/xilin

Same for the Fifth Ave. School of Performing Arts at the Fifth Avenue Station. They have over 2,000 students. For the past two years they have had to go to Plainfield for their performances. This is a real handicap to Mother’s who have to drive their child there for rehearsals and performances, wait for them, and then drive them back home. Barbara Yokom, Ex. Dir., also states it is imperative to have the facility by the train station. A lot of her teachers and students arrive by train. This is true of patrons for the shows. Ravinia has the train. Omnia will have the train. http://omniaarts.org/schoolofpa

If you have no children in our performing arts organizations in Naperville, we can understand how you feel the Omnia theatres are not needed. You have no knowledge of the need and only view this as a facility to bring in big shows. That is not the case. This facility is for our children to have a venue for their productions.

As Ron Keller states, Naperville has five auditoriums, and they are all too small. The schools are about 800 seats, Pfeiffer at 1050, and the new Wentz at 605.

Plus, he says, we always have to work around Park District schedules or school musicals and plays. We need a facility large enough with the seating capacity to attract major professional bands, orchestras, ballet, and community theater. We are no longer a town with 5,000 population. We are now a city.
http://omniaarts.org/municipalband

And so the list goes on and on for the need of more performance space.

The two theatres planned for Omnia fill a void totally lacking in Naperville. One can point out the facilities we have, but as Mr. Keller states, that is not what is needed. Both the 2700 seat theatre and the 900 seat theatre will have a tall fly-tower (where scenery goes up above the stage behind the curtain) and a large orchestra pit. Plus the large stages. No theatre west of Chicago has these amenities. The upper balcony of the 2700 seat theatre can be closed off if not needed and preserve the feeling of intimacy. But the extra seats are there when needed.

Omnia will NOT be an arena, nor a concert hall. It will be a Broadway theatre. That means a large stage, tall fly-tower, big orchestra pit, plenty of dressing rooms, many seats, etc.

Our second commissioned feasibility study was the business plan. In that study it was recommended that two, possibly three, theatres all can operate with the same overhead, and all are needed. Rehearsals can be going on in one theatre, and performances in the other.

There will be teaching rooms, dressing rooms, meeting rooms, etc. The smaller 200 seat theatre can function in multipurpose ways, including a space for the newly formed Film Festival. More meeting spaces are sorely needed for small local groups. We want the lights to be on all the time, people coming in and out, and not just opened when a show comes into town. This will function more as a civic center.

There will be plenty of rest rooms, handicapped access, modern electronics and acoustics. Plus the underground parking, especially important for our growing senior population. Elevators will take patrons into the lobby of the theatre. We now need to focus on creating a “senior” friendly city.

Omnia also believes that double use of the parking is certainly an economical and ecological sensible thing to do. Performances will begin at 8:15, when most commuters have long gone home.

As to Broadway shows, etc., that is only a means to pay the overhead. The whole purpose of the Omnia theatres is for the use by our residents.

Hopefully this will help explain the reasoning for having this facility and having it in Naperville.

Omnia is in the process of preparing a Question and Answer document. We will post that as soon as completed.

Anonymous @ 2:54,

What you're missing in all of this is that the other anonymous, the one who spends untold hours snooping around, discovering improprieties by City offices... well, the simple truth is that he can only spend those untold hours because he has a Big Fat Pension!
It must be true!

By GJC on July 15, 2009 3:33 PM
Anonymous @ 2:54,

What you're missing in all of this is that the other anonymous, the one who spends untold hours snooping around, discovering improprieties by City offices... well, the simple truth is that he can only spend those untold hours because he has a Big Fat Pension!
It must be true!

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

That is silly. Those who have Big Fat Pensions are usually not against Big Fat Pensions.

Those who have to subsidize Big Fat Pensions are usually against them.

Did you see those government officials who control the Social Security System while getting Big Fat Pensions busted on that 5 Star Resort in Arizona by ABC NEWS?

A total of 700 of them at taxpayer expense. The "admitted cost" was a 1000 dollars for each government employee at YOUR expense.

When the Socail Security Administration was busted, they stated we had to send our employees to this 5 Star Resort at your expense to relieve stress. The ABC video can be tracked on the internet on ABC.com.

Unbelievable!

It would be nice if civilians could take vacations at the expense of the government to release and relieve stress.

I don't care how many people disagree with me, but government at all levels as we know it in the USA is CORRUPT.

They are the root cause of our financial crisis and our high taxes.

I can spend as many hours as I do here because I am a stock trader and I enjoy blogging while following and tracking my trades. I also have some real estate investments.

No one is giving me a Big Fat Handout and I am not gettng a government salary at taxpayer expense.

My goal is to reduce taxes for everyone in Naperville including myself and my renters. Hopefully, when I wake up Napervillians I will be successful in my endeavors.

Some people actually want to talk about Omnia so please keep this on topic.

To Bev Patterson Frier,

When spending taxpayer dollars, I think you have to differentiate between wants and needs. All the things you cite are certainly worthwhile to some group of people, but that doesn't translate into any justification to spend millions and millions of taxpayer dollars.
I've seen the Young Naperville singers -- a less than capacity performance at Pfieffer Hall. They are highly talented performers, but how does that justify spending taxpayer dollars? How much will they pay to host the event you say they "want." The obvious answer, is not enough to cover the costs. Answer: Use someone else's money in the name of the arts.

The same applies to every group you named. Yes, it would be wonderful if they could have a world class facility in which to perform, but they don't and I, for one, don't want to foot the bill for building one.

In my opinion, there is no chance that this will work. I am very concerned that our desire to be number one in everything will blind our city to the realities -- at taxpayer expense. No coucnilman that supports this project will get my vote or my campaign dollars.
I don't think I'm alone....I certainly hope I'm not.

I am happy that Bev Patterson spoke up.

Thom,
I do not know your credentials for preparing a study to determine if Omnia is feasible or not. However, I do know the names of the experts commissioned by Onnia. They are listed on the Omnia website. I have checked them out and they have a great deal of experience, and credibility.

Also, as Bev Patterson pointed out, there are many letters of support for this project from local groups stating they need the performance stages.

Regarding North Central:

North Central College appears to be "obstructionist" to the Omnia project, and I do not understand why. I do believe that North Central is really subsidized by Napervile taxpayers because all of its facilities and land holdings are tax exempt. The OMNIA project can be a tremendous student and faculty recruiting tool.

NCC is a great benefit to Naperville, and Omnia can also be a great benefit to Naperville.

Omnia is not a threat to NCC and I hope that NCC changes it stance and helps to bring this project to Naperville. NCC will benefit.

Thank you Michael Boomgarden for helping to bring some sanity to this dicusssion. Omnia mentioned that it has shared all of its studies with the City and I also hope Omnia will share its studies with the rest of us.

Sam,

I totally agree with everything you said.

It is rare that anyone ever speaks for me.

But you speak for me at least this one time.

Thanks for your very intelligent and well thought out comments.

CIJ,

No one speaks for anyone else here. We just agree or disagree, see how well that works? At any rate, if we are voting, I vote no to Omnia. While it may or may not be the right place, it is certainly the wrong time. We the taxpayers do not need a risk of this enormity. So CIJ, I agree with you!!!!!!!!

The big difference between OMNIA and most patrons of the arts is that a true patron of the arts has the financial resources to execute their own personal vision. In this case the people behind OMNIA think they have a vision, but they really are dependent upon being able to sell their vision to a bunch of skeptical taxpayers who, by and large, don't seem to be too terribly interested in buying into their vision.

A good case in point would be the Krannert Center at the U of I. Five theaters under one roof all paid for by Mrs. Krannert because she didn't want to have to go out and stand on the street to smoke a cigarette during intermission. Vision and money and she made it happen.

OMNIA is nothing more than an unfunded pipe dream that will never see the light of day.

Michael,

I appreciate your comments, thank you.

A key fact in the discussion of OMNIA seems to have been lost.

If I understand the OMNIA proposal correctly, it creates a substantial amount of revenue that would not ever otherwise be created with the city’s low density “work shop” plan. I assume this is what OMNIA means when it calls itself a tax creator rather than a tax user.

TIF raises no one’s taxes while it boosts the tax base. In OMNIA’s case, very few kids would reside in the project. Kids thru their impact on the schools are typically the only major service need for a project of this type. OMNIA has indicated that District 203 enrollment officials concurred that the impact on enrollment would be minimal.

Of the $120M of TIF bonds issued, probably 80% of that exists because if the greater number of residences planned. That is $96M.

Similarly, 80% of the projected $50M sale of land comes from these same units. That is another $40M.

This $136M total of otherwise not created funding would be nearly enough to build the Performing Arts Center by itself.

The sum of these is $136M of value is thrown away by people like Thom Higgins who are bashing the OMNIA proposal. It is an opportunity that would be wasted. Where else can $136M and an impetus to raise more come from? Why squander such an opportunity?

However the proposal requires the full 100% involved be used and wisely plans for an enhanced Garage to be built and Endowment fund raised.

Those costs account for the rest of the funding requirement.

OMNIA has agreed to help raise all of the difference in total costs via a mixture of contributions, sponsorships and naming gifts from individuals, corporations, and foundations. Other grants would come from the county, state and federal governments.

If the funding is not all in place, OMNIA has said it should not be allowed to break ground. That seems a very fair promise to the rest of us.

It is obvious no one would be willing to give large sums of money if the city has not said it would allow the development to occur. The complaints I have read about their not raising millions already seems unfair. Let’s give them a chance.

If OMNIA doesn’t perform and the theater is never built, the city still has the enhanced Metra Parking Garage built in the early phases, an improved and larger tax base and the cash equivalent of the bonds and land sales in its bank account.

What does it lose? A couple votes from people that always think change and vision are BAD! Those same people’s home values will grow substantially if OMNIA is built. They remind me of the old commercial where the kid that “hates everything” is fed a new cereal. After a taste he likes it!

I personally am an arts lover and want the money created spent on OMNIA. I would like to watch and listen in a grand hall to a full size professional symphony, a touring Ballet or a Broadway Musical and take my kids with!

They’d be in bed by 10:00PM. With OMNIA, I could do this without wasting 3 hours in traffic driving 70 Miles round trip, while boosting my baby sitting bill and wasting another $30 for parking in Chicago. That would pay for the kids tickets!

What really amazes me is that the city has not realized the potential of these sites to create a significant amount of funding for its own use if it is not used by OMNIA. It is good fiscal policy and good land planning.

When the kids go to college and I tire of cutting my lawn, I’ll move in and get a garden plot down by Central to grow my tomatoes and other vegetables.

It costs the city nothing to give OMNIA a chance. They gain funds if Omnia fails and gain a world class Arts center if they don’t. Sounds pretty WIN-WIN to me.

Bev,

While I entirely appreciate your point of view on the lack of large venues in this town, the fact remains that the cost to build and operate one is something that will not be recouped by any stretch of the imagination.

Please tell us in how many years this will, at the bare minimum, simply break-even for the taxpayers.

I'm not a person who is uninvolved in the arts, as I have two daughters seeking a professional career in them. I am not asking the taxpayers to pay for their classes, to fund their private lessons, to pay for my gas to and from places like the Joffrey or Ballet Chicago nor their fees either.

Further, when do you expect to see the economy pick up to even half-fill such a place, let alone fill it to capacity and for what shows/performances ?

Will a performance ever operate 'in the black' ? What is the break-even price per performance for this to happen, taking into consideration the cost just to HAVE the facility ? From there, the taxpayers (aka voters) can do the math on seats/cost per ticket to draw their own conclusions.

OK,
I have a slight variation on the question, and would be interested in seeing what people think -
If the Omnia project could be made cost-neutral for the city, or something approaching cost neutral, would you support it and do you think it would be a good addition to the city in terms of size, scale, and location?

I get the idea that some of the biggest detractors of this project are local to the neighborhood. That's perfectly understandable, but does need to be made plain as part of the argument, I would think. This would not be in my back yard, so I look at it differently, though it would be in my city.

For my part, I love the idea of the Omnia, and I think that the location of it would be brilliant, for a large number of reasons, not the least of which is the combination of additional parking near the station [which I use only on weekends, maybe a couple dozen times a year], the station itself, which would probably bring in large numbers of people from the western suburbs and perhaps even the city, depending on the shows offered. I also think that incorporating housing into the plan is a very fine idea.
I'm less sure about the sheer size of the proposed complex, and the height of it, as I am not particularly good at imagining things like this. It does seems fairly monumental to me, BUT, that is one of the things that really draws me to the idea [again, contemplating the idea as funding neutral] this major arts complex would be of enormous benefit to the city, the people and even to the surrounding areas. It would actually be an interesting time to contemplate building a program like this, as I am given to understand, though I don't have anything like inside information, that construction companies are looking for large scale projects as there are fewer of them to go around.

How does looking at the question this way change what you think about the proposed project?

I disagree with Bev's contention that existing facilities are inadequate for groups like Young Naperville Singers, that the stages are too small, or that venues are unavailable. North Central College's Wentz Concert Hall stage is enormous and can accommodate a full 88-piece orchestra AND a 100-voice choir at the same time. Need more seats? Easily resolved by adding more performances. We host events by the DuPage Symphony Orchestra, Xilin, Naperville Chorus, Anderson's Bookshops and many other groups. If groups choose to stage events in other communities, perhaps they're trying to expand their reach. With our new venues--including the 250-seat Meiley-Swallow Hall and 150-seat Madden Theatre--North Central College has more availability than ever! There is demand for our facilities, true, but it's balanced with our supply, and we're certainly able to work with groups to accommodate additional requests. Stage size and seating are the types of issues we researched for 10 years leading up to construction of North Central College's Fine Arts Center, which was built entirely with private donations and is operated at no cost to Naperville taxpayers. None of the exhaustive studies we did during those 10 years indicated the need for a facility anywhere near 2,700 seats. If those studies indicated a need, we would have built an Omnia-type theater. As an important contributor to Naperville's quality of life by employing hundreds of people, providing cultural and fine arts events and generating untold impact on the local economy ($100 million in construction alone in recent years, not to mention the many vendors we do business with), North Central College's concerns about Omnia reflect its standing as a stakeholder in the community: the project as proposed would have a devastating impact on the immediate neighborhood--including our campus--in terms of the 10-story height of the buildings and increase in traffic. And Omnia would require significant taxpayer subsidies: for land, to construct buildings and permanently, on an annual basis, to operate it. We appreciate being part of the discussion, since we have more experience building and operating fine arts venues in Naperville than anyone else.

Thom;

Unfortunaltely, you continue to misrepresent this project when you state that Omnia is being given something for free and that Omnia will retain the "proceeds".

Onmia is not asking the city to give it anything for free. Omnia is asking the city to implement a project that will benefit the entire city. Onnia is not a developer and Omnia will not own the housing or the parking garage. The "proceeds" will pay for the parking garage and the performing arts center.

How are the "proceeds" derived? From the following:

The developers will sell the condos, townhomes and houses to new residents. These residents will pay the property taxes that provide the "proceeds" to pay for the garage and the arts center. These residents will also bring in lots of new money when they go to the grocery store, or the cleaners, or hire an attorey for the closing on their unit, or a tax professional, or buy paint, or frequent the existing businesses at Fifth Avenue Station, or frequent the establishments and stores in Downtown Naperville, or . . . . .

Omnia does not reap anything – the city and the citizens and the existing businesses reap the benefits. Nothing is given to Omnia. Omnia will not own the parking garage – the city will own the parking garage. The city also has the choice as to whether or not it wishes to own the Performing Arts Center.

And Omnia has a large and positive annual economic impact on the area, beginning with the "proceeds" that the city immediately receives from 950 new commuter parking spaces - at the new price of $240 per quarter for these permits - this is new and immediate "proceeds" for the city of $$228,000 on a quarterly basis or almost $1 million annually. This will sure help the city budget and maybe help bring back some of the workers who were laid off.

Thom - you are lucky! You can walk to the train or get on the buses that go to the train station. You have the opportunity to control your fuel consumption. And you do not have to even buy a parking permit.

Omnia will offer this opportunity to many other people. Are you araid that this will take away your priviledges and make your property value go down? A friend of mine lived in Arlington Heights when the new construction similar to what Omnia is proposing occurred. She found that her property value on an old condo went up. How about looking at success stories instead of only finding the bad in this project. Your continued reliance on misrepresentations and false interpretations makes your entire position suspect, weak and false.

Has anyone asked the question... Does Naperville NEED 500 condos?

This is a terrible idea for Naperville. Again, the developers bending the ears of the city council??? I dont live in that area, but if I did, I would not welcome 10 stories worth of condos and a huge Concert hall. What a nightmare!! I dont want to pay one cent of taxes for it either. This is another example of Naperville wanting to show off with something it can little afford. If we cant find money for the Carillon or Childrens museum, we cant have a new Omnia. Did anyone notice that we are in a recession? Maybe the arts community could raise the money for the land and facilities on their own. Good Lucki!

For Tom, I don't agree with you;

Look, this is just getting silly and isn’t helping Omnia’s cause.

It is a fact that Omnia does not have any credible amount of money to build this project. And they are relying on other people to finance it. Let me repeat that;

Omnia does not have any credible amount of money to build this project.

They are relying on two major “pots” of other people’s money. The largest is $120 million from a TIF derived from the sale of 670 housing units, mostly condo’s. They also envision $70 million coming from the sale of three city owned properties that they do not own.

So, it is simply a fact that Omnia is expecting to be given these three properties, to be sold to developers with Omnia retaining the sale proceeds to pay for the performing arts center and the parking deck.

If you want to argue that in exchange for the city giving those three properties to Omnia, the city will derive the asset of the theaters and deck, fine, but there is no ambiguity that the city is giving them those three properties, and Omnia retains the proceeds.

Lost in the above conversation is the fact that Omnia will certainly need additional annual financial support for daily operations.The fact that so many performing arts centers are in dire financial straits is very pertinent, and lastly the question of Omnia’s Faustian bargain of proposing the construction of 670 housing units on three small parcels, not because it makes good planning sense, but simply because they need the absolute maximum density in order to raise $120 million they don’t have themselves. I will again commend the position paper from the three nearest homeowners Assn’s here: http://wow.lowtechnet.com/echo/positions

In closing, Omnia has numerous flaws, here are the major ones;

1. The viability of a 4,000 seat performing arts complex, irrespective of finances.

2. The complete and absolute lack of any credible funding to pay for it.

3. The “Faustian bargain” of proposing the massive density needed to support a$120 million TIF simply because they do not have any credible funds themselves.

4. The fact that they are not willing to commit to owning, operating, and being financially responsible for the theaters.

All one has to do is read about Overture in Madison, the Sears Center in Hoffman Estates, and Arlington Heights performing arts center, among many others, to know that this is a very dicey financial proposition in the best of times, even when it has responsible funding. To try to do this with “smoke and mirrors financing” is fiscally irresponsible, and is a chance that no city can afford to take. Invariably, when these projects go south the city has to step in. Omnia’s financial collapse would make the Carillon debacle look like a rounding error.

Tom @ 10:31,

Speaking of misrepresenting. . .

The property taxes of these 'new residents' will not exclusively pay for it. Everyone's property taxes and normal city taxes will pay for it.

You said:

"The developers will sell the condos, townhomes and houses to new residents. These residents will pay the property taxes that provide the "proceeds" to pay for the garage and the arts center."

Is the city setting up a special separate fund just for these 'new residents' and only paying for it from their money exclusively ?

Thom –

I mostly agree with you, but don’t think the Sears Center (an 11,800 seat arena) is comparable to this proposal. Yes, the city had to take it over, but I underatdn that Omnia envisions the city could/would/should run the proposed performing arts center.

I guess a good question to ask Omnia would be, “Is this proposal still possible if the density were cut in half (for example)?” I, for one, will not tolerate another Carillon debacle.

T.B.

I keep reading through the whole blog and the various sites on the internet that are covering this story and one thing just plain mystifies me and I think Naperville ought to consider it and its motivations more openly.

The strangeness involves the considerable opposition being voiced by officials of North Central College. It is also clearly institutional opposition as all statements of opposition have come from staff of the College that clearly say they are not speaking as private citizens or residents.

It strikes me as very strange that they are in active opposition because their primary emphasis as a Liberal Arts College is as an educational institution emphasizing the "arts". This contrasts with nearby Benedictine's greater emphasis on the sciences. Benedictine and its President are strong supporters of OMNIA and have indicated they would be rent paying users on occasion, perhaps for their "great speakers" events.

NCC is not being asked by OMNIA for any money or land or other assistance.

The opposition also strikes me as strange given that North Central College has had its efforts to build its new Wentz hall a +/-600 seat recital hall so strongly supported by the city from the start.

This is even though Wentz is poorly located and causes considerable extra traffic and parking demand to occur at the worst location in Naperville relative to evening and weekend activities. I think they got a free pass on this issue. So do many others. But we all think at least it was for a good cause.

NCC also had the significant benefit of not having to build its own, expensive parking garage for their arts center (although it apparently makes some nominal payments to the city for some usage at the deteriorated city garage adjacent to it). They should remember this assistance when they criticize others that request assistance from the city

NCC independently raised funds to build Wentz Hall and now pay for its operation through contributions and earned income which is laudable and the result is generally a positive benefit to Naperville. OMNIA is trying to do the same but needs city approval to start its full fundraising campaign. It creatively raises a lot of its capital requirements through the residential development. They promise professional operations that they and their endowment will pay for after it is built. Why is the college so aggressively opposed?

It still baffles me why this apparently good institutional citizen is opposed to an OMNIA facility which can be used by other groups and users that can't use Wentz and could also be occasionally used by the NCC should it need to.

Wentz and its uses are limited and its calendar is dominated primarily by college activities, which is how it also should be.

I doubt that any feasibility study would say Wentz was economically feasible and would be a profit generating addition to the NCC portfolio. Rather if it is like most such studies, it likely said that if the college wanted it and showed a need for it, the only issue would be how to pay for it.

The aggressive negativity from North Central College bothers me as they are NOT EVEN A NAPERVILLE TAXPAYER even though they own perhaps several hundred acres of very prime downtown property. The tradeoff of their general cultural benefit to the city is large, but so too would be the annual total tax revenues that a host of homes and businesses would otherwise be paying. The land would generate many millions of dollars annually in tax revenues to the city if it were not owned by a Naperville based educational institution.

Town and gown strife is common in many communities over exactly these types of issues and the type of civic voice a college plays in a community. The Fifth Avenue Station area is not even truly adjacent to their campus. It is on the north side of the tracks.

NCC should not consider itself to be the voice of and provider of all cultural amenity to the city and region. It is not capable of that task and it should be expected to be. It is a contributor, not sole provider. I think they should be more supportive of other arts and non profit groups that complement them as an amenity to the larger community.

If NCC wants to get in the way of something I as a taxpayer believe is worthy then I think that there should perhaps start to be consideration of their starting to pay some fees in lieu of taxes.

I believe I heard at one of the many group presentations made by OMNIA that they had once made overtures to North Central College about NCC’s joining with them in this larger center because of the locational challenges and the beneficial economies of scale within a shared facility.

The large OMNIA hall would be available (technically still is) for NCC’s periodic uses. The overture was rejected outright even though a good number of board members were very intrigued. Detailed discussions were shut down by the college's President Hal Wilde. I suggest Hal's ego got in the way of what might have been a very good deal and a significant recruiting tool for students and faculty. That was his and the board’s choice and OMNIA suggested they respected that choice. No one would argue that Hal is short on ego and that Wentz is something for which he is rightly proud and NCC something he avidly protects, but,

The opposition still mystifies me.

His staff has testified vaguely about studies they conducted that disprove a need for a large facility. It would appear that such a study commissioned by the College would naturally suggest the college does not need a large facility for its own use and that such an opinion is clearly a valid consideration for NCC.

But it is also an entirely different question as to whether a larger community and region should want a facility. Omnia says it has done many studies asking this question and the demographics strongly suggest a feasibility of audience and nearby support for the Arts. If a method can be found to pay for the facility and guarantee operations it is clear that feasibility follows.

Are their local users for the facility? Clearly there are some including many potential occasional users. That would likely include a few nights by Benedictine, a few nights by districts 203 and 204 a few by the Naperville Symphony, Chorus and Band groups as well as the evolving Naperville Film Festival. Perhaps it is annually visited by the excellent Elgin Symphony Orchestra. Perhaps NCC opens itself to usage and uses it a couple nights a year. It could be home to a solid full scale, high quality Nutcracker Ballet at Christmas. Throw in a few annual business or training meetings by local corporations and a solid usage count starts even before consideration of the planned booking of touring shows that might include Children's shows, popular concerts (Folk, Jazz, Blues, Comedy even Country and Western), touring classical fare (Symphony, Ballet and even perhaps Opera),. Throw in a couple long weekends of touring Broadway Musicals and a pretty busy calendar is booked. If the question is “what single entity needs the OMNIA facility the answer is justifiably none. But if the question is “can a full calendar be put together locally and nationally for evenings and weekends for a 2700 seat facility with a full stage and fly loft” it seems an answer is probably yes. A diverse program should also mean a diverse audience that has many tastes. If the economics of the OMNIA plan prove out, then the center is feasible.

At the City Hall presentation Bev said the OMNIA name comes from the latin “For All”. It seems well named.

NCC should stop its opposition. They aren’t asking or answering the correct questions with their critique.

Thom Higgins, Thom Higgins, Thom Higgins ---everyone knows you are totally opposed to OMNIA and will use every method at your disposal to fight it. I respect your freedom of speech and opinion but you are becoming less and less rational and clearly not listening to most of what OMNIA has said or writen.

What you don’t get is that OMNIA is only interested in creating a world class performing arts center for a world class city of 150,000 people set in a region of over a million. They have scoured the city for the best place to accomplish that goal. A part of that goal clearly was to create a way to fund most of it in the most efficient way possible. They aren't in this to make money, especially not money for themselves.

A world class performing arts center costs quite a bit, so too does a 1700 car parking structure. If a method can be found to do it that does not raise our taxes, it should be considered.

If you had been around, I’m sure you would have opposed any rail line ever being built in the confines of the city of Naperville. The rail line is a part of why Naperville is a successful community that has attracted an educated, hardworking population. The rail line has been built (thankfully) and it is now a significant regional amenity that should be even better utilized. The OMNIA plan does that.

Let me commend you on you suggesting support of your position via the link to your homeowners group. Its seems clear you basically authored that document. It takes Chutzpah to substantiate yourself with yourself, but who’s to complain.

Also, with regard to your four major flaws list:

The first is not even English, but I assume you mean will anyone use it and come to it. My last entry suggests what my careful listening suggests to be the OMNIA plan for booking and it seems practical. The Endowment and statements from their professional advisors suggest the economics of operation have been sincerely considered.

The second is at least close to English but the statement is just your unsubstantiated opinion. The OMNIA folks don’t seem dumb and their advisors seem very credible. TIF’s have been used in many communities and it is a time tested way to produce funding for infrastructure and amenities in many circumstances. So to is the sale of well located land. It is very logical that if you can build a bit more, those funds increase. If you do the profit driven development before you spend the TIF money, it is also not risky. These are entirely credible methods. You just don either understand them or like them.

The third is inflammatory English. I would substitute “Genius Method” for “Faustian Bargain”, both are equally emotive but one is not loaded with negativity but rather with American Positivism. You also exaggerate when you use the adjective “Massive”. The OMNIA project is clearly large but it is not huge or massive Most of it is 2 and 3 stories and none of it is unbuffered by a stairstepping shape that minimizes the way it looks. 5th Avenue station is massive, should we tear it down? That would be a waste and a travesty. It looked to me like if you walked on the sidewalks around OMNIA, the taller structures would be hardly noticeable behind the shorter buildings. Clearly OMNIA has to be given a chance to raise the money,

Your griping about OMNIA raising funds is also a cheap shot. It has raised nearly a half million dollars for a project that is not a sure thing. That is clearly heavy lifting from my vantage point. I haven’t given money yet but will if the city approves the concept. I am sure there are many like me and many that are wealthier than I that need that to take place first. I don’t think they will have great difficulty
That requires the city to accept the plan. The city is protected because OMNIA has said it will only break ground on the Performing Arts Center if it has all the planned money raised. Sounds like a GOOD BARGAIN to me.

On the fourth item, where do you get this idea that OMNIA is not willing to own and operate the facility and take responsibility for it? I see OMNIA being respectful of the city’s involvement as the initial land holder and authorizing entity for the TIF district. They are clearly not able or desiring to speak for the city. The $20M Endowment fund that OMNIA raises is clearly an effort to take responsibility for operations feasibility. The city should be a part of the decision on these issues. I thought it clear that OMNIA would fill these roles if the city prefers it. Its statement to have all funds before breaking grounds seems protective of that likelihood.

Finally, any discussion of this that relates to OMNIA’s concepts being potentially invalid in the current recession is a low quality critique because it is obvious that the plan is going to take 5 or more years to accomplish in several phases as explained with the OMNIA movie. It is very tough right now but is that forever? I don’t think so. And if I read any tea leaves properly, the ability to live near an easy commute is the next wave of “most preferred housing type” Do you take the train? Do you walk to it? I would like to and so would many others.

Bev keep writing because your statements are filling in some gaps and OMNIA is making more sense with each addition.

By Tom, I don't agree with you on July 16, 2009 10:31 AM
Thom;

How are the "proceeds" derived? From the following:

The developers will sell the condos, townhomes and houses to new residents. These residents will pay the property taxes that provide the "proceeds" to pay for the garage and the arts center.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

This is the most irrational statment I have ever read on this blog site.

1. Do you think these residents don't need part of their taxes going to police services? Are they never going to call the police?

2. Do you think these residents don't need part of their taxes going to the fire department? Are they never going to have a fire?

3. Do you think these residents will be nurtured and spayed before they buy condos, so we can guarantee they will not have kids? If they are not nurtured and spayed what property taxes will pay for the education of their kids?

4. Who is going to pay for the lights on their streets?

5. Who is going to clean their streets?

6. Who is going to pick up their garbage and recyclables?

7. Who is going to pick up their leaves and branches?

8. I can go on and on............

To say that their taxes are going to Omnia and it won't cost us anything is the STUPIDEST thing I have ever heard.

If that was the case, then the old residents are subsidizing the expenses of the new resdidents and our taxes will go up immensely.

I am sorry but anyway you slice this Omnia it is a LOSING PROPOSITION.

Well,
If CIJ is against it, even with the money he gets from his big fat pension, then I suppose I have to be for it.
He/They say: This is the most irrational statment I have ever read on this blog site.
I'll leave that alone, though I could easily point to more irrational statements, but simply put - Of COURSE the new residents will need all the other services of the community, and will be taxed accordingly. No one ever said, or suggested that they would ONLY pay for the deck/center, just that the TIF could be arranged in such a way that the infusion of new money would create an amount that could be used for the deck construction project. That's all it says, and it's pretty apparent if you read any of the actual documentation that we're supposed to be discussing.
I like the idea of the Omnia, a great deal, actually. If they do build it, and the condos/townhouses are of sufficient quality at a reasonable cost for the area, I'd actually consider moving - I don't see how, at present, it's economically feasible without a great deal more information than I have available to me, BUT... I think it's an idea that should be explored, by all means.

Thoughtful One;

I could write a thousand words in response, but this will have to suffice;

You say most of the complex is only 2-3 floors.You could not be more wrong. Please look at either Omnia's website, the pictures the Sun has posted, or download Omnia's animation of the proposal here; http://www.lowtechnet.com/omnia

The theater complex is 130' tall at the fly stage and certainly 70-80' tall otherwise, the two condo towers adjacent are 130' tall as well (some illustrations also show a slightly shorter condo tower at right angles too). On the DPW site they show shorter condo towers 80' to 100'?

Again, please look at the pictures. This is massive density and height that is far far greater than anything currently in Naperville. 5th Ave Station (height of 42'to 48', and only occupying 1/3 of their lot), will look incredibly small and spacious in comparison.

If you plunked Omnia and the condo towers in downtown Chicago on say State Street, no one would bat an eye as the density is comparable. But Naperville ain't downtown Chicago, and never will be. Omnia themselves, in their documentation are using the existing public parks for their required open space, because their project has essentially none. This is completely self-evident to anyone who cares to look at the drawings.

People should realize that Omnia is showing town homes on all of 5th Ave Station's parking lots along 5th, effectively putting up a wall of town homes in front of the building. I just can't see that happening. It certainly isn't good land use planning either.

Lastly, your comment about Omnia raising a half a million dollars; That will buy a nice house in the neighborhood. Omnia needs by it's own admission $200 to $225 million to get up and going and have a small endowment.Even with that there is no guarantee they will not need additional financial assistance for annual operational expenses. Don't take my word, go read the National Endowment for the Arts latest report. Revenues usually make up approx. 50% of a budget with donations making up the balance. This, in the final analysis, is their most fatal weakness. They have no money, no major commitments for money, and want others to finance their dream for them.

to: bev/by thoughtful one/by tom, i don't agree with you

Thank you for your insightful comments. I for one don't relish the idea of looking at a parking deck either at the former public works site or the Boecker bldg site. We need to get the commuters off the street, however parking decks are an eyesore...no matter how you decorate them. Much rather look at architectural beauty surrounded by tasteful landscaping. Not to mention, a properly implemented tif is a much better financial arrangement for the city's residents.

To Thoughtfull One....two questions

In an ealier english lesson to Thom Higgins you stated the following:

"Your griping about OMNIA raising funds is also a cheap shot. It has raised nearly a half million dollars for a project that is not a sure thing."

Simple question...
Who donated this money and what interests do they represent?

Second question...
Were the Omnia justification studies completed before, or after the financial crash and recession? That is to say, how dated is this analysis?

Thom Higgins, at least your are starting to read the comments with some degree of thoroughness. If you have a thousand words that aren't repetitions I'd like to see them written down.

I had already looked at your referenced videos in doing my attempted "thoughtful" research.

You are correct when stating that the project is not mostly 2 or 3 stories. I mis-wrote in this regard, It should say that most all the street fronting buildings in the OMNIA project are 2 to 3 stories including all of the track side frontage. The exception being along the southwest where the buffering building looks to be comparable in height to 5th Avenue Station. I think this helps substantially to minimize the height of the several taller buildings substantially. Edward Hospital is the same size as OMNIA but because it has no 2,3 or 4 story buffer it appears much larger.

I am in downtown Chicago every day. The density in Chicago's central area is dramatically higher and taller than the OMNIA proposal. You would have to be blind to think otherwise. But data speaks more forcefully: According to a data base called EMPORIS and an article in Wikipedia that keeps track of these things, Chicago has a 100 buildings over 500 feet tall (about 4 times as tall as OMNIA) and another 15 that are under construction. It has nearly 1100 "tall" buildings that are 12 stories or more. Most are well over 25 stories. The OMNIA project would seem very small and short in downtown Chicago. Perhaps one of the shortest buildings in the loop is the Chicago Theater which seems to have a volume and vertical Height very similar to OMNIA or the Residences.

Regarding Open and green space, all the buildings appear to have green roofs and there appears to be a roof top park set within the three mid rises. Looking at Google Earth, the three existing parks ring OMNIA and seem to be an appropriate amount of green space for this neighborhood or any neighborhood that has many homes with back yards. Also a wider look suggests a lot of other green space around the Junior High and not very much farther away, acres of it are around Naperville North. Are any of these parks currently overused?

Regarding the town homes separated from the 5th Avenue station, there appears to be a 40 or 50 foot gap between them that looks landscaped. Are you aware that the original Kroehler plan was originally twice as big and came nearly up to the sidewalk of 5th avenue? That would have been about twice as tall. I prefer townhomes to a bunch of asphalt. As I looked at the movies it was clear to me that nearly all the parking was quite well hidden. The OMNIA presentation said that it was mostly below grade.

It seems clear you don't understand finance very well or you would not mistake a $500,000 house with $500,000 of cash. The house at best had $50,000 to at most $100,000 of cash put into it and the rest a mortgage. But you use this analogy to abuse and divert the statements that were made. $500,000 raised when you have no approval of your concept is significant. The OMNIA people must still prove they can raise what they have committed to raise and help raise but anyone can see they are severely hampered while this project is in the limbo of uncertainty. You also have refused to evaluate the concpt if TIF is used and land is sold for OMNIA's benefit. If it is valid and their experts suggest it is, the amount of money needed is a more reasonable amount. They don't have to raise every penny. They have to raise the balance after $170M. If the Total is $220, then they have to raise from many sources 23 cents of every dollar.

Lastly I called a friend that is in the performing arts management business and asked him how the National Endowment works and if he knew what percentage of most groups operating revenue was fundraised. He said it varied widely. Places like the Oriental/Ford where Wicked played or a Drury Lane which are "commercial" theaters have some sponsorships but no contributions. He thought $1M a year would be a considerable number for such a place. For other groups that are not for profit it depended on the nature of the group. A year round opera company or a symphony orchestra may have over half its funds donated or sponsored because the cost of a company with many artists involved is great and those companies are often artists that are also Union employees. Dance companies and drama companies and most popular concert types have fewer artists and only for each show rather than year round. They may have year round management and staff but they are often run more lean. Their fund raised revenue might only be 15 or 20% depending on how many seats they have and whether they sell well. He thought Steppenwolf during the years just after their theatre was built was in this range but they have since had greater fundraising success and may have raised itself to a higher percentage because of their "starpower".

He said it sounded to him as if OMNIA was planned to run generally as a "road house" that would rent itself out to many users. He said this was the most economical model for running a theatre if it is not built for a single company of artists and one type of art. He also said a couple of theaters linked together cost almost the same to run as one and that a large one costs nearly the same as a mid size one to run.

I thanked him and believe this explains the business and the OMNIA concept much better than random statistics from the NEA.

Dear just curious,

I don't know those answers as I haven't heard or read anything on those topics. They are very good questions.

I hope OMNIA responds.

I assume much of the material has been around for a year or so, I don't know if it was updated. I first saw a presentation a little over a year ago, it seemed comparable.

I'm also not sure it matters because I would suggest that this all would not start detailed planning for a year while the city and OMNIA work out details of any agreements. "Sales" of the residential might wait for another year until the agreements are all in place.

If the world hasn't started to return to something more normal by then, then it may need to wait another year. Its been a dumpy parking lot for 20 or 30 years so a delay might not matter much. It may help to extend the fundraising period.

Also it seems that a lot of construction workers are underemployed these days which suggests that construction costs may be staying flat or getting cheaper. That is a good thing because the study retains validity longer if that is true.

I think I read Bev is 79 in one article, I am sure she would want it quicker.

I did some more research on the environmental comments related to increasing the number of parking spaces at the train station.

I am assuming that every space eliminates an auto commute to downtown Chicago and that each space captures someone that won't take the bus but rather drives. I think this is a likely reality but if you factor the numbers below by 50% they are still huge savings to the environment.

I think I read there would be 970 additional new spaces provided.

A commuter drives an average of 70 miles round trip between Naperville and downtown Chicago every work day and does this 5 times a week for 50 weeks a year.

How much money, gas and time and co2 is saved if they no longer commute?

Sounds like an SAT question!

970 x 70miles x 5 days x 50 weeks is 16,975,000 miles per year. The government allows $0.55 per mile as a measure of the cost of running a car, so that would be $9,336,260 plus parking,

970 space at $250/month x 12 months a year is $2,910,000 which combines to be $12,246,260.

Although I think this is in the 0,55/mile, at $3.00 a gallon the gas companies get $2,370,000 or $2100/commuter a year based on 25 MPG.

If the train saves a half hour each way (A low estimate perhaps) then 970 commuters x 1hour x 5 days x 50 weeks is 242,500 hours or 10,104 person days or 10.4 day equivalents per commuter. And you can't read the paper or a book!

The 16,975,000 miles if driven at 25 MPG average, is 679,000 Gallons of gas. There are 20 pounds of co2 created per gallon so this means the driving commuters create 13,580,000 pounds or 6790 tons of co2 per year. WOW!!!

The entry at 11:49 PM was by "thoughtful one, soory I didn't say so

Anonymous / thoughtful one

It would be very interesting to see the list of the donors that contributed to Omnia and see if this thing is being pushed by those who stand to benefit ie developers, real estate firms, contractors, law firms, architecture firms, design firms,etc, There was some expensive talent sitting at the public meeting and those fancy reports and slide shows don't come cheap. I wonder what people expect in return?

That's alot of money to spend on plans for something that may never see the light of day. Does a 501c3 have to make a public accounting of the donations they receive? Seems like something an enterprising investigative reporter for a good suburban newspaper might want to look into.

Your comments about the possible delays in the project due to the economy, resulting in cheaper construction costs only addresses half the equasion. It's the revenue side that is at risk here. If the economy is so bad the cost is cheaper, I suspect it's also so bad that fewer tickets will be sold. This brings into question whether or not a reasonable forecast can even be completed in these volatile times and with out that, how can anyone responsibly recommend going forward? It's not an investment at that point. it is pure speculation and the only "exit strategy" is for the city to get into show business. This deal just dosen't make sense.

I read all the frustration at misunderstood intentions, finger-pointing over biased opinions and disappointment that certain people won't get on board. I read the support that in places smacks of Omnia people passing themselves off as Joe Naperville Resident, and the opposition that dances round and round points that might not make a big difference to the larger issues at hand.

So here's a little of what I see in all this. Is Omnia coming at this at the wrong time? No, the longer you wait the more expensive it'll get. And by the time this baby is ready to walk, the economy will be so over the recession.

Is Omnia looking to make big cash on the deal? I don't know but it seems that the issue is secondary to whether this project is right for Naperville. It needs to be reviewed, but we need a consensus on the larger issue first.

Should the city be entertaining Omnia to present the proposal? They have to as part of being fair to all parties with a development idea. Doesn't mean the city is in league with anyone coming before them (doesn't mean they aren't either).

Does NCC have to get behind an arts proposal to be true to it's mission? No. An orchestra can pass on supporting a string quartet without being guilty of suppressing support for the arts. They may have some selfish reasons for it, but they may have some valid and fair reasons too. The selfish reasons don't make the valid reasons any less valid. Let's respect their position and judge it on the evidence given, without dismissing it because of who's giving it. The fact that several NCC staff are giving it means that it's not one man's opinion.

Is the idea of replacing a parking lot with a more complimentary, productive and desirable development a worthy proposal? Sure. All large parking lots are unflattering. Well, the one at Morton is kinda nice. But your average retail one is a necessary eyesore. Redeveloping the Metra lots could be a big help to that area. Being able to get lots of invisible commuter parking there is a big plus.

Is Omnia getting the land for free? Well there's the Roe v. Wade question of the day. I'd have to go back and read all these posts to be more confident in my opinion and there's just too much to read. But Bev did say that with all other considered properties they'd have to pay for them. So it was clear to me that in her mind the city property wasn't actually costing them anything.

Does that automatically make it a bad idea? No, it depends on the idea and who benefits from it. Certainly the neon lighted sign here is that the city gets a big asset. But is it as simple as that? No. The success of this can't be measured by the fact that this is Naperville, or that there are some local groups who need the space, or that it doesn't currently exist. I read in another story's comments where a guy with many many years of booking experience scoffed at the presumption that Omnia could fill the schedule (largely because Chicago is so near), let alone attract the named shows that Bev said would be coming here like it's a foregone conclusion. If the city is to own this theater complex, they'd need to look over the shoulder of the agency managing it to make sure they are fulfilling their obligations. My first thought on this is that the city has no experience with this. And just saying that we have a respectable management company on the job doesn't automatically mean that we can sit back and trust them. The city will likely need to hire someone to hold their leash and make sure our investment is being managed wisely. Someone with the experience to know what they're doing. Even after that, I can't ignore the words of a guy who knows a lot more about running these operations than I do. So I have to acknowledge the red flag here.

Is the TIF a sweetheart idea to work this deal? Well certainly it gives Omnia an instant bank account in that it's money they didn't have to work to earn. Sure, it's going to pay commitments, so it's not like they're spending it all in Mexico. And yes, it's generated money that didn't exist before so it's not taking money away from any other project. But this implies that we couldn't find a way to develop the area without using a TIF, or a way to develop the area thru a TIF that keeps the project in line with Naperville's current building sizes. Being Naperville, other plans will come along so we don't have to jump at this one like it's the golden child or our last chance. I say that because while this area generates no taxes now (and so nothing is lost, per se) the development, condos and all, with require money from the city to provide services to it. Sewer lines to it will need maintenance down the road that will probably be outside of whatever money the developer pays to hook the place up, extra paving/repairing will be needed after the first pour starts to crack after all the new residents and patrons finally wear it down, trash pickup for 670 units won't be provided by the hauler for free, etc. So why not look for a development idea that doesn't require sequestering such a fat pile pile of cash for the next 23 years, something that comes closer to paying its way? Given the speculative nature of a performing arts center, and the fact that we can't presume this stated $150 mil economic impact will be realized, we can't take it as that the money will start rolling in if we only have faith and make the leap.

Is the opposition to this a NIMBY or anti-development campaign? That's too simplistic an argument. I've read people talk about established standards for managing Naperville's growth, whether Omnia's studies can be trusted to be so complete as to have covered all the bases, and looking for ways to improve the land while respecting the neighborhood. If there is a set standard for things like height and density around here, then a plan that goes far beyond it on multiple fronts can be responsibly rejected by a community without it being taken as a blind and unconsidered act of fear (the underpinning of the NIMBY and anti-development reaction). Because the standard was set and agreed to, a community can be allowed to actually expect developments to respect those standards. This development would rocket past the average height of the area and the height limit, and set a new standard for density. So that fact alone has to be a serious part of the discussion. Currently, I don't think the long-term impact of these two new standards has been given its due. Are we to become a city of mid-rise (is that was a 10-13 story building gets categorizes as?) structures? If, after this project got the green light, the Nichols Library parking deck got scrapped for a development that put the parking under a 12-story tower, would that be okay for Naperville? If developers decided the open lot by the Main Street Promenade could generate a lot more needed cash for the city if they built a 14-story building – and donated two floors to the Children's Museum – would that be okay for Naperville? If we look at the Naperville of 20 years from now, will we say we are satisfied with what we have turned it into? As Mr. Boomgarden said, we need to take a broader look at the space available here. But given that this is no small plan, the review can't be limited to just the available land – the repercussions will be felt well beyond this one development.

Does living up to Daniel Burnham require a huge project? No. Small plans can surely waste a valuable opportunity. But remember that Burnham's most visible contribution was to build a park. It was audacious because it was a park. A big and unprecedented park, but still a park. So while I can't give the secret to living up to Burnham here, I can see that his intentions weren't necessarily to build something that startled the neighborhood.

What about the neighborhood? We once said it is important to balance development to match the area it's going into. So does Naperville as a whole see the scale of this project as being incongruous with the neighborhood, or that the current neighborhood character is expendable for the sake of satisfying a select group's desires? From past council meetings, I got the sense that there were certain things the city was not willing to easily let go of (building height limits being one). Remember, I said easily, as in yes they haven't held the line absolutely. But in pursuing this proposal, I feel that the supporters are people who find this practice foolish and overly conservative. So what is the supporters' views on a large development's impact on a neighborhood? Should it be considered? What benchmarks do they consider valuable and what are not to them?

Dang, this is a long post.

If Omnia can be built through private sources 100% and guaranteed it will succeed through private insurance policies, I am all for it.

Michael Jackon's London Tour was insured. No one is taking a beating or having to BEAT IT.

I put 100% odds this project will fail and fail miserably and the taxpayers will take the brunt of the failure.

And then our real estate taxes will be 5 times that of the nicest city to live in the USA instead of only 4.

Is that what the few supporters of this proposal want?

Before you delve into the future, you must understand the past.

You must study the history of Naperville and if you have time, Napergate. And try to understand why our taxes are 4 times what they should be, before risking they become 5 times what they should be.

I think it is high time for all those who choose to waste taxpayer money and make this town unaffordable, to the rest of us, to leave town. Go to a town that likes to waste taxpayer money. Good riddens! We just don't need you folks and your drunkful habits of spending on credit cards issued by the taxpayer.

If you don't have the money, save it, and then risk it. You have no right to risk a penny of my money or any taxpayers' money. We never declared we were credit cards with no limits.

Everyone who is in support of Omnia should be asked to put up his home and life savings as collateral behind this proposal if they really believe it will be financially viable.

I bet not one person supporting this project will risk his life time savings like a true business man or business woman opeing a true business and taking true responsibility for it.

I am sick and tired of drunken sailors asking me to leave town if I don't care to pay excessive taxes. I have decided it is time we have a Tea Party and dump all these drunken sailors off the Niagra Falls so they can obtain a feel of what true risk is.

If they can survive a fall from Niagra Falls, I will support the Omnia Project. Let us see if they would even dare take the plunge. They won't! They understand risk to themselves but they do not understand the risk they are asking the taxpayers to take on their behalf.

I'm surprised they are not pitching the construction of a Monorail as a complimenting tax-saving endeavor that will take these scores of patrons between the arts center and the Carillon... You know, because so many people are flocking here with money in hand for tour after tour to make it self-sufficient.

Food for thought:

http://www.nea.gov/research/NEA-SPPA-brochure.pdf

http://www.arts.gov/research/TheaterBrochure12-08.pdf

Let's add one more to that. Does Naperville need high-density homes by a train station, thereby promoting mass transportation?

Certainly more mass transportation is better for us than more highways and idling traffic. But as the council has noted, Metra is running at full capacity on our line. They have no funding to add trains. Is there money allocated under the new Illinois capital funding bill? If so I'm pretty sure it'll be to replace old cars that have been waiting to be retired. These city commuters wouldn't have a seat to sit on during the rush-hour. That in itself will be a clear hinderance.

Also, cities like Palatine needed developments like this to revitalize their community. Naperville isn't in need of a high-density project to help it get out of a hole. And I seriously doubt that the train will bring many theater-goers here. It will bring some, but we have a car culture - and as evidenced by the expansion of I-88, having the train here has not kept freeway traffic at bay. The train schedules, plus the fact that they don't saturate a market for true ease of use, are always a hinderance to using them to travel within the suburbs. Aside from maybe the zoo stop, few people use the train to travel to any other destination besides Chicago.

Of course we shouldn't give up on promoting mass transportation, but I don't see this project being concerned with all sides of that problem.

Talk about rolling the dice!. Taxpayer money should not be used to finance this. What about the impact on commuter parking with this huge developement? I don't see how commuter parking can be increased with these building taking up so much space. There are plenty of theater venues in the area already and some of them are struggling and require continuos in fusions of public money. The real estate market is already weak with so many homes on the market. I don't see how this theater can top the ambiance of the Paramount or Rialto.

I am an Omnia supporter and a resident since 1986. I was a commuter but am now retired.

Metra is not running at capacity. The City staff reports that the maximum capacity of commuters Metra can handle without improvements is 5,280 per day (Attachment 9 of the “5th Avenue Study – Recommendations for Multi-Modal Improvements and Commuter Parking). The City Staff currently projects that only 4,800 passengers are expected to use the Downtown Naperville station by the year 2028.

There is plenty of room for any new residents in the condos, townhomes and houses included as part of the Omnia proposal. Also, the 950 new parking spaces does not mean 950 new commuters since there is a large backlog of current commuters with applications for permits.

Commuter parking will be expanded with an underground parking garage, not on the surface. All of the street parking will be removed and it will be easier to get around in the entire area.

Taxpayers will not pay more to finance the project. They will pay the same amount they would normally pay.

To thoughtful one:

North Central College has stated its case pretty clearly, and there's no mystery about our motivations. 1.) We think a cluster of 10- to 13-story buildings immediately adjacent to our campus would have a devastating effect on the neighborhood and dramatically compound traffic problems. We have a good relationship with our neighbors, and we look out for each other. 2.) We think the Omnia project as proposed would permanently create a significant burden on all Naperville taxpayers. 3.) Omnia has not demonstrated a need for these types of performing arts facilities. In our positions, we've responded to Omnia's depiction that our facilities are somehow inadequate or unavailable--something that is simply not true.

The below is in response to the itemized list in the post above by By Citizen Investigative Journalist on July 16, 2009 3:38 PM.

I wrote this response yesterday but it seems not to have been received. perhaps I typed the wrong e-mail address.

-------------------------------------------------

It is a fair question to ask how will services that are needed on site in the TIF area will be paid for. I think they are not actually a huge increase and where they are, they would be privately secured as the cost of having a condominium or running a performing srts center. Each service is discussed below as presented.

But first, the housing quantity that is projected is a modest number relative to the entire city of Naperville’s population. At most 670 units x 2.1 residents per unit or 1407 residents are about 1407/150,000 or .94% of the total “Residential" driver of service need. It is arguable that residences cause perhaps 2/3rd of the services required of the city so that suggests a .66% . These figures may be a little off but they seem reasonable to me. That small % amount is a rounding error in most budgets.

This is particularly the case when the taxes now being collected in the area continue to flow as they do today. 5th Avenue Station and the commercial Boecker property are on the tax roll today. Also the parking revenues will grow dramatically and they flow to the city.

1. Police currently service the area so it is not all “new service”. The improvements in traffic control would seem to reduce the number of fender bender calls as would a rational parking structure. An “arts crowd” is rarely a creator of incidents. The condominiums and its garage as well as the Performing arts center would have their own in house security and surveillance systems paid for privately. The growth in Metra parking count results in added income from that expansion and some of those funds should go toward any added police surveillance. Policing this type of residential in the Naperville context should be modest at best. These costs should be fairly nominal and again current taxes continue to flow toward their provision under the TIF legal structure.

2. Presumably the structures will all be of fireproof design and materials and will be sprinkled. A fire equal to the recent one at the Asphalt Company shed is unlikely in this situation. There are other buildings in Naperville this tall (Edward Hospital, Arista Hotel, “N” Office Building) so their should be no need for new training or equipment for the department related to the project. The biggest new need is likely to be a normal percentage of emergency care/ambulance requests. Again these costs should be fairly nominal and again current taxes continue to flow.

3. They type and of housing proposed is the least likely to be occupied by school aged kids. Some will go to 203 schools but the number is likely very few and they would not all be the same age. I believe I once heard Bev say that they had talked to 203 enrollment officials and this “Minimal Impact” was felt valid and the district would recoup benefits with the performing arts center. Most published reports suggest access to the arts is beneficial to educational prospects. Again these costs should be fairly nominal and again current taxes continue to flow.

4. The streets are already there and are lit using current tax revenue, there would not be additional funds needed. The METRA garage will earn more total revenue which should be used to offset any new lighting costs.

5. The streets are already there and are already cleaned and plowed. The structure parking should reduce the need to ever plow and the rest of the site looks mostly covered. Usually condominiums and arts centers and commercial retail spaces have plowing and interior road cleaning as apart of their budget. That is some of what condo assessments go toward. This would not likely be a city expense.

6. Usually condominiums and arts centers and commercial retail spaces have private garbage pick up and interior recycling as apart of their budget. That is some of what condo assessments go toward. This would not likely be a city expense.

7. Usually condominiums and arts centers and commercial retail spaces have landscaping and yard debris as apart of their budget. That is some of what condo assessments go toward. This would not likely be a city expense.

8. commenter stated: I can go on and on............Please do because if there are big huge city costs for services involved, I don’t see them. Low density Townhomes and houses would likely require as much or more and over the long term they would pay less in taxes.

So in summary, the TIF and the development would seem to produce some, though likely modest increases in new service costs. The current tax revenue stream in the district may have actually been supporting the rest of Naperville in the past as the area appears to require few current services and the revenue likely provides very few direct services today. When the TIF ends, the revenue stream explodes and helps offset costs well beyond the district.

I've been riding the train for years. Generally, taking a rush-hour train is a crap-shoot for getting a seat. This time of year there are a lot of people on vacation so it's easier. But come the fall, we'll be back to people standing in the aisles and vestibules. Still, taking the 5:20 and 5:45 train home just before it leaves the station, you can walk the entire train and not find a seat. If Metra's capacity counts the fact that there is more room for standing passengers yet, then sure there's lots of room left. I was going by the presumption that for a half-hour trip you should be able to get a seat. Course, you could count the layoffs in the area as meaning we have lost riders and therefore we have room. You'd be right. I'd assume that drop would turn around as the economy comes back up, so it's not a permanent dip.

I heard this point being voiced by the council, I believe by former Councilwoman Senger.

Dear just curious,

I don't know those answers as I haven't heard or read anything on those topics. They are very good questions.

I hope OMNIA responds.

I assume much of the material has been around for a year or so, I don't know if it was updated. I first saw a presentation a little over a year ago, it seemed comparable.

I'm also not sure it matters because I would suggest that this all would not start detailed planning for a year while the city and OMNIA work out details of any agreements. "Sales" of the residential might wait for another year until the agreements are all in place.

If the world hasn't started to return to something more normal by then, then it may need to wait another year. Its been a dumpy parking lot for 20 or 30 years so a delay might not matter much. It may help to extend the fundraising period.

Also it seems that a lot of construction workers are underemployed these days which suggests that construction costs may be staying flat or getting cheaper. That is a good thing because the study retains validity longer if that is true.

I think I read Bev is 79 in one article, I am sure she would want it quicker.

I did some more research on the environmental comments related to increasing the number of parking spaces at the train station.

I am assuming that every space eliminates an auto commute to downtown Chicago and that each space captures someone that won't take the bus but rather drives. I think this is a likely reality but if you factor the numbers below by 50% they are still huge savings to the environment.

I think I read there would be 970 additional new spaces provided.

A commuter drives an average of 70 miles round trip between Naperville and downtown Chicago every work day and does this 5 times a week for 50 weeks a year.

How much money, gas and time and co2 is saved if they no longer commute?

Sounds like an SAT question!

970 x 70miles x 5 days x 50 weeks is 16,975,000 miles per year. The government allows $0.55 per mile as a measure of the cost of running a car, so that would be $9,336,260 plus parking,

970 space at $250/month x 12 months a year is $2,910,000 which combines to be $12,246,260.

Although I think this is in the 0,55/mile, at $3.00 a gallon the gas companies get $2,370,000 or $2100/commuter a year based on 25 MPG.

If the train saves a half hour each way (A low estimate perhaps) then 970 commuters x 1hour x 5 days x 50 weeks is 242,500 hours or 10,104 person days or 10.4 day equivalents per commuter. And you can't read the paper or a book!

The 16,975,000 miles if driven at 25 MPG average, is 679,000 Gallons of gas. There are 20 pounds of co2 created per gallon so this means the driving commuters create 13,580,000 pounds or 6790 tons of co2 per year. WOW!!!

Thoughtful One,

You are pretty much admitting what I said is true while doing you best to minimize and sanitize it. You really don't understand DOLLARS and SENSE. ( I did not misspell cents.)

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1. 1407 over 143,000 is the accurate number and not 1407 over 150,000 which is almost a full 1%.

2. Residences and people do not only require .66% of the services provided by a city. They better require 100% of the services required by the city and taxes we pay or city officials are skimming the other .34% of the services for their friends and family. I don't think city officials are having contractors refinishing their basements and constructing additions to their homes at taxpayer expense, so I believe you are 100% wrong.

3. You are basically admitting since the tax money these new residents are providing is off limits to city services and will be strictly used for Omnia, that these residents are contributing nothing to sustain themselves as far as city and school services.

4. You are also indirectly admitting as I always knew, that the other 99% of the residents will be subsidizing these 1% so the tax money from these 1% goes to subsidize Omnia. Unbelievable! Keep in mind you are also starting a dangerous precedent. Other groups with fantasy visions will also want taxpayer land, funds and services free of charge. This will bring discrimination suits if they are not afforded the same benefits. The Napergate Man cost us 10 million dollars when we tried to treat him in an UNEQUAL MANNER. We don't need another sequence of Napergate Trials. We need to ask ourselves if we can afford them with the budget and pension deficits we currently experienced and still have respectively.

5. If you use deducitve reasong and logic, you should be easily able to conclude that this is a sham transaction in which the CURRENT residents through their real estate taxes subsidize Omnia.

6. If you build 13 story buildings, you are going to have to buy new longer ladder fire engines that cost a cool $1,000,000 each which can deal with these 13 story towers. The fire engines nearby to the best of my knowledge are not the extended ladder types but smaller ones more equipped for 2 story home fires that surround them.

7. Of course, the likelihood of a fire is very small with the new fire resistant materials required in constuction combined with sprinkler systems. I know fire figthters do very little in their 24 hour shifts that include 8 hours of occassionally interrupted sleep. But when I complained about their salaries and the high cost of these fire fighters and their equipment, it was explained to me as an INSURANCE POLICY by Establishment Folks. Are you now saying Omnia will not need this insurance policy? If there is a fire in the 2700 seat Omnia Theater with people in it, the cost will be greater than putting out a fire at any residential home. Who is paying for the additional ambulances to insure readiness in case of a catastrophe? Aren't these emergency vehicles also an INSURANCE POLICY???

8. Yes, police patrol the streets in that area currently. You can not tell me we will not need more police in a high density area. Are you going to tell me these swinging singles with no kids are not going to have domestic fights every day requiring the police to intervene? Swinging singles living together fight way more than established families. They get intoxicated a lot more frequently, too which leads to disorderly conduct, public urination, disturbance of the peace and fist fights as we see downtown almost every weekend.

9. The downtown has become high density. The other day I counted 17 police officers and a police dog on one intersection after a fist fight between 2 rather muscular guys and their long haired girl friends in super mini skirts. What better theater can Omnia possibly offer to compete with a free show like this? It seemed like it took all 16 police officers to hold the crowd back while a few of them tried to break it up. The canine officer and his dog arrived shortly after the fight was over. ( At about the same time there was a knife stabbing at the Olive Trees Condominum Association where no police could be found within a 2 mile radius)

10. I can tell you there will be lounges, nightclubs and bars outside, in or nearby to the Omnia Complex to service the patrons when they leave. Are you telling me the NPD is going to treat this differently than downtown and not have 17 police officers on one intersection? What proof do you have that police power will not be increased on those very busy intersections with all those high density structures and art centers? Who will pay for another 17 police officers on those busy intersections? Not ME, at least voluntarily.

11. It has been told to me that the downtown police are not a great burden to the taxpayers because they are school police with nothing better to do in the summer and the union demands they remain employed whether we have a budget shortfall of $11.5 million or not.

12. Since all the school police are assigned to downtown and apparently needed by my critics, this means we need to hire at least another 17 police officers and a canine dog to maintain law and order in this new night district. Yes, the first show starts at 8:15pm at night in order not to have interference with the commuters.

13. While 8:15 pm is a perfect time for me since I am a night owl, it is not the perfect time for most people and especially families with kids. As soon as Omnia is built by Bev and her Establishment friends, they will say we need to start at 7pm so we can compete with Drury Lane and Paramount. And we need afternoon shows just like the other theaters as it is hard to break even with only one show a night that starts at 8:15 pm.

14. Anybody who knows anything about the theater or movie business like Ted Slovick who has some real experience at NCC, knows they run shows all day starting from noon till midnight in order to hopefully break even. And despite all these numerous shows it has been reported here that most are still losing money and being subsidized. NCC double utilizes their halls for classrooms which saves building classrooms. In addition, they have some very wealthy donors chipping in big bucks. Bev has been at this for 2 years and all the money she raised could barely buy an average home in Naperville....and she wants to build a 9 digit complex. Imagine that my fellow bloggers. ( I also have a fantasy dream and would like to build a Big Zoo one day in Naperville...can anyone tell me how I can separate the city from 100 acres of land so I can build my zoo....and how I can squeeze City Hall for 2 million so I can have 2 Chinese Pandas starring at my Big Zoo. And since we have plenty of theater halls in Naperville and not even one Zoo can anyone tell me how I can get my Fantasy Dream on the front burners and ahead of Bev's Fantasy Dream. I promise I will give one dollar of every 5 dollars I collect in cover charge to the taxpayers for being so nice and giving me 100 acres and 2 Chinese Pandas.)

15. Regardless of what anyone promises or says, we are going to have a massive, I mean massive traffic jam during the home rush hour.

16. This means all the streets have to be widened and the entire infrastucture has to be expanded at taxpayer expense. If the streets are widened that means we have less land to build on. Are we going to also donate the 3 parks to Omnia?

17. Since Omnia will soon find out that to be successful financially they can not only have ONE show starting at 8:15pm, shortly after opening they will start having a SECOND show starting at 5:15 pm.

18. This brings us to the massive parking problem. How can an additional 970 parking spots solve the parking dilemna when the theaters to be financially viable have to operate before all the commuters are home due to the need for double and triple showings per day. It is impossible!

19. Condos and townhouses do not charge condo fees to have their garbage picked up. Pick-up service is provided by the city. So that is a cost to taxpayers. It is true that commercial businesses have to dispose of their own garbage by retaining their own waste management companies. (Condo fees are for the swimming pools, tennis courts, landscaping and weight rooms. I know, as I once lived in a condo complex before buying a home in town)

20. It is a myth that the condos, townhomes and even homes being built will not have kids that need schooling. They will probably have kids equal to homeowners in subdivisions. I once lived in a condo complex in Naperville and it was loaded with kids. I now live in a residential subdivision and it is also loaded with kids. The amount of kids seems to be equal. The only difference is the kids in the condos tend to be a little younger in age while the ones in the homes seem to be a little older in age. But both younger and older can be found in both kinds of residences and both age groups need schools.

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You asked me to go on and on. I did. I can go on and on but bloggers do not like very long posts. Sorry about this one. But if you challenge me I will go on and on in a new post and show how off and flawed your analysis is from reality and affordability.

Bev appears to want to open her version of Michael's NeverLand called NeverFantasy. NeverLand was losing 10 million a year. I suspect Bev's NeverFantasy will lose at least 10 million a year. Does Bev have this kind of money? Is Bev a rich lady willing to will her estate to NeverFantasy? If she is a rich lady how do we know she will not live to be 100 years young? She probably has an excellent team of doctors watching over her....hopefully not the Michael Jackson type of doctors.

It is encouraging that so many of you are really interested and taking part in the Omnia Process. And thanks to the responses from our unknown supporters. We appreciate your time to study the project and tell us your thoughts.

Some of you have questioned the motives of Omnia. Without a doubt, all donors and board members have NO financial interest in the project. These are just residents who see the need for the parking facility, the need for some reasonable housing downtown, the need for a larger tax base for the city, and the need for space for the arts groups. And, they understand this is an opportunity that will not cost us taxpayers.

Omnia does not suggest that our gateway/entrance is better than what “might” be there. We only say that ours is better than the current condition by many factors and that it would be a significant arrival point for the downtown from the north. Currently downtown Naperville sort of “arrives” in front of you. It does not get announced.

The current plan of city staff is a very modest plan, thus we believe the Omnia Project would be a much greater stimulus for upgrades to the north toward Ogden and to the south toward downtown along Washington Street.

We have created Frequently Asked Questions on our web site www.omniaarts.org/faq. It is quite lengthy and detailed and we felt it would be better there than on this Potluck site. Please go there and if you don’t have an answer for your question, please let us know.

While I have met with Bev and members of the Omnia Board numerous times, and I find them to be sincere and well intentioned, the FAQ’s still do not actually answer the fundamental question. Omnia needs $200+ million. How is that to be raised? I have asked previously, and I ask again, for Omnia to post, at the very least, a detailed accounting of their suggested method of raising that amount. Different scenarios? Fine, then give us those as well, but enough of statements that use the adjective "could" . But Naperville shouldn’t be asked to accept this on little more than faith and the opinion of some experts.

Further, I renew my request for Omnia to post a detailed explanation of the underlying calculations and assumptions of just how the claimed $150 million in annual economic benefit is calculated.

Lastly, I can not let this pass unchallenged. The goal is to create density and buildings that the neighbors can accept. We are sensitive to their desires. Omnia knows full well that cramming this many tall buildings on too small a space will never be acceptable to the neighbors, as we have plainly stated numerous times. To claim that this plan is sensitive to our desires is, frankly, disingenuous.

Thom Higgins

What I would like to know is how much income is expected to be derived from Broadway-type performances and other top of the line professional acts? I highly doubt that this would a popular venue for those types of productions.

The bottom line is all surrounding suburban theaters have failed. Established theaters who have fully paid their mortgages can not make a profit. Omnia will NEVER make a profit especially in this new economic climate when people can no longer print money by using their homes as collateral for a home equity loan. Money for luxury events is tighter than ever.

The $150 million in annual benefit to the community really comes out of a rabbit's hat.

The NFL likes to advertise that there is a billion dollars in annual benefits when they have a Super Bowl game in a city. The NCAA when asked how the NFL can heap $1,000,000,000 on a city while they can only heap 30-50 million on a city during their FINAL FOUR CHAMPIONSHIP stated they use a different formula that they find unacceptable in calculating economic benefits.

What formula do Bev Frier and the Omnia Team use? The formula of FAITH and if it does not work stick it to the taxpayer. Let us not fall for this gimmick. Faith may get us to Heaven but I doubt it will get us 200 million for this project. Just my humble opinion.

By Against OMNIA 100% and a little more.... on August 1, 2009 1:22 PM
The bottom line is all surrounding suburban theaters have failed.

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Paramount Theatre in Aurora?

By DWS on August 1st.
Enough already Naperville!
We don't need our own brand new theater. It seems that someone may be jealous of NCC's new facility and has to have their own. Lets share in the use North Central College Wentz Concert Hall and enjoy what is already here in our community.

By Bev Frier and the Omnia Team on July 30, 2009 3:22 PM
It is encouraging that so many of you are really interested and taking part in the Omnia Process. And thanks to the responses from our unknown supporters. We appreciate your time to study the project and tell us your thoughts.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ms. Bev Frier,

After visiting the Norris Center in St. Charles to watch my daughter's Dance Team, I just wondered if we really need a 2700 seat theater and how difficult it would be to fill it.

Xtreme Dance were National Champs and they only commanded 1000 spectators a night for 4 nights. Certainly, if Xtreme Dance were performing in their hometown of Naperville instead of 45 minutes away they may have commanded 1500 per night.

Norris Center has many sponsors and donors who subsidize it besides profitable revenue from leasing it out to various groups. They are not self sufficient. The theator is beautiful and despite being state of the art can not break even according to the House Manager.

It is too bad the Wentz Concert Hall of NCC was not built with a 1000 seating capacity instead of only 600 to accomodate groups like Xtreme Dance which I suspect will be around for a long time. the high school have more than 600 I assume so in my opinion this place was too small for a city of 143,000.

If Xtreme Dance got more popular and had 8000 fans willing to pay $15, I am sure they can pull this Show Case over 2 weekends instead of one weekend. Thus they would not need an expensive 2700 theater even though it would be nice if they only had to perform 3 times instead of say 8 times to accomodate everyone.

You can also see better in a 1000 seat theater than a 2700 seat theater. And the kids would get more live perfomances instead of rehearsels. So there are pros and cons to this issue.

If you are serious about building with your money(not taxpayer money) have you contacted this group to see if you can sign them up for a few weekends a year? Have you contacted the mother organization to see if you can book them for a National Championship competition. 2700 seats may be enough for the Nationals since so many teams were performing and many times parents only watched their teams. Unlike the Dance Showcase where people were glued to their seats, in the nationals patrons were playing musical chairs for 5 days so the 5000 seats were never all taken except when the awards were given where it went into a standing room only situation.

I know very little about this field of art or culture. I am new to this and developed interest because of a daughter competing on a local team.

I was just wondering what your plans are for filling it up. If you can get committments, I assume it will be easier to get financing since I doubt the taxpayers would ever subsidize you.

Good luck in your massive project.

I'm generally a supporter of the arts, probably more than most people.

This is way too ambitious and over the top.

I hate to say this Carillon = Omnia

We will never get back the millions that Naperville had to cough up for that debacle. People don't come to Naperville to see a Carillon.

I've been to many music and arts events at Naperville Central. With the exception of the musical, Drum Show, and the Humanities concerts these events do not fill the auditorium. Most events barely fill the auditorium 50%. And the events that fill the auditorium are mostly parents, not those outside of the Naperville community.

Let's be frank, the numbers don't support local organizations having to have a brand new performaning arts center. The demand is simply not there.

I've gone to shows at the Paramount, Rialto, Pfeifer Hall, NCHS. The aren't sold out, and for good quality artistic performances and acts.

Even the CityGate project at 59 and Ferry road was supposed to have a performaning arts center. What happened to that? Now that corner has a failed restaurant and a huge hotel and half empty ultra expensive office space.

Ms. Frier, I appreciate your passion for the arts, but the city is already carrying a burden of the Carillon and the Children's Museum.
Two things that should have never cost the town anything but have.
Unfortunately in this case past performance is an indicator of future failures. And that Omnia will be.

There is the old saying "There is no such thing as a free lunch"
And Omnia is not free.

Dannosden,

I agree with most of your well thought out comments.

I hope Bev comes back on and answers some of our concerns.

I do believe she is a well meaning lady but way over her head on this project.

It seems like Omnia is trying to spin this as not a taxpayer subsidized project...when in fact it is just that.

Many older halls have paid off their mortgages. How can Omnia compete with halls while they have a huge mortgage in a business that in most cases is not profitable....especially in the suburbs.

From what I learned from Xtreme Dance parents who are way more involved than I am, is that this Studio not only shops for quality 1000 or more seat theaters but one that will give them a good price.

They need to have plenty of money to be left over so they can go and compete in Nationals next year. This business is very costly especially without any taxpayer support as it should be.

While Xtreme Dance did have about 90-95% capacity on Thursday and Friday and close to 100% if not over on Saturday and Sunday, it is also a very established group that has won 4 National Champions in a row. So it takes a special group to fill large theaters.

While I am no genious in this area I suspect if Xtreme Dance had a 2000 seat theater to use in Naperville and lowered the ticket prices from 15 dollar to 10 dollars, I suspect they would have a chance to fill it up. Of course some mention in the Naperville Sun would not hurt....even one pargraph on the bottom of page 68 would be helpful. St. Charles was really quite a haul. At least 45 minutes. If it was in Naperville and only 10 bucks I would have went 4 times and bought some tickets for family and friends who live in Naperville and nearby suburbs.