Despite a budget of $5 million tax payer dollars, the Naperville Park District's plans for the renovation of the Centennial Beach Bathhouse do not include an elevator for disabled citizens. The board feels that the long steep sidewalk from the parking lot down to the beach is adequate for the needs of residents with limited mobility.
So I've challenged the board members to take the 'Centennial Beach Accessibility Challenge'. Meet me at the site and see if you can climb into a manual wheelchair and wheel yourself from the parking lot, up, up, up to the bathhouse and then down, down, down to the pool. If you can make the round trip without overexertion then you can decide against the elevator in good conscience. We'll videotape the experience so that the public can witness how easy it was for you to make that trek.
So far, none of the board members have accepted my challenge. So I ask all Napervillians to sign this petition urging the board to provide an elevator or lift as part of the bathhouse renovation.
PS. I got this reply to the challenge from Mr Shutes, the park district's Director of Planning:
"Unfortunately I'm unable to participate in the 'challenge' due to concerns related to possible injury and worker compensation claims."
I guess that confirms that the so-called 'accessible' route from the parking lot to the pool is a dangerous one -- too dangerous for park district staff to consider trying it out for themselves!
So why are they digging in their heals against including an elevator or lift in the bathhouse renovation project? Please help by signing the petition (see the web link above).
There is a park by my house that had an existing sign (the newer design that was rolled out a few years ago). Well, the Park District ripped it out of the ground and replaced it with a new sign (older / original design) a few feet away. The ground has yet to be repaired, but why did they have to spend $ and replace a good sign with a new sign?
Your complaint should be filed with the Department of Human Rights on the basis of Public Accomodation discrimination to the disabled. Go here: http://www.state.il.us/dhr/Forms/CIS_Pa.PDF
HAHAHA, I love the Centennial Beach challenge. What a great idea. Not surprising no one wants to participate, it's just like the people who have challenged the city councilmen to try biking to the train station when we had the topic about Naperville's hilarious public transportation and 10 year wait for parking passes to park in a microscopic lot compared to the amount of commuter traffic the Metra stations see.
I'd pay good money to see the park district board struggle to get up the ramps in a wheel chair just like I'd pay to watch the city council members ride to the Metra station on a miserable snowy morning. Charging admission to these events could not only potentially generate tons of money for charity as residents line up to watch city officials make fools of themselves, but maybe something would actually get done about the handicapped ramps and Metra parking if they experienced it first hand.
Something tells me both the city council and park district board will never run out of excuses as to why they can't participate.
Saving money doesn't appear to be at the top of the park district's to-do list. At the park near my home (Arrowhead), they are tearing down the swings and play area and building an entirely new one. That play area was just expanded with new equipment a couple of years ago. What a waste!
I'm not aware of anyone in the neighborhood who was asking for changes at Arrowhead. Why is money being spent on it? The old play area was nicely nestled in some trees with shaded areas. The new one is out in the sun for all to bake. Was public input requested on the redesign? Not that I'm aware of.
And how can it possibly cost $5 million to renovate the bathhouse at Centennial Beach. You could raze the site and start over for a lot less than that. The park district admits that the bathhouse is lightly used and will continue to be lightly used even after the renovations.
The beach needs a few individual restrooms and change rooms, yes. But communal showers and locker rooms are a 19th century idea. People just don't use them anymore. So why are we refurbishing something that the district admits will be little used??
The park district appears to have more money than it knows what to do with and it's spending the money on projects that are not needed.
Don't you know that the government is exempt from ADA laws on their property? I went to a government office in my wheelchair and complained about the inaccessibility only to be told it wasn't their problem. As usual, the government demands more out of citizens than it does itself.
You are quite right that I -- or any disabled person -- could file a complaint with any of the following bodies:
The Illinois Human Rights Commission
The Attorney General of the State of Illinois
The US Department of Justice
for violations of:
Illinois Environmental Barriers Act (410 ILCS 25/1 et seq.)
American's with Disabilities Act of 1990 (US Title 42, Section 126)
or by filing my own lawsuit against the park district in state or federal court.
But I would rather not do that.
Any of these methods are slow and costly. They're not costly to me because when I win the case (and it's a slam dunk), the district pays my legal fees. But between paying for my legal fees and the district's own legal fees, it gets expensive to the taxpayer (which is me and you both).
Meanwhile they go ahead with the beach renovations without the elevator or lift and then have to retrofit one anyway after they lose the case. That costs the taxpayer a lot more than if they just designed the elevator in the project at the beginning.
So in the interest of my tax dollars and yours, I'd prefer that public pressure persuade the district to do the right thing at the right time (now). That's why it is so important for everyone to sign the petition here
Whoever the government official is who told you that is dead wrong. There's an entire section of the ADA that applies specifically to Federal, State, and local government units. Unless your complaint was about some 'back office' area, not normally accessed by the public, the ADA certainly applies.
Part A - Prohibition Against Discrimination and Other Generally Applicable Provisions
Sec. 12131. Definitions
As used in this subchapter:
(1) Public entity
The term "public entity" means
(A) any State or local government;
(B) any department, agency, special purpose district, or other instrumentality of a State or States or local government; and
(C) the National Railroad Passenger Corporation, and any commuter authority (as defined in section 24102(4) of title 49).
(2) Qualified individual with a disability
The term "qualified individual with a disability" means an individual with a disability who, with or without reasonable modifications to rules, policies, or practices, the removal of architectural, communication, or transportation barriers, or the provision of auxiliary aids and services, meets the essential eligibility requirements for the receipt of services or the participation in programs or activities provided by a public entity.
Sec. 12132. Discrimination
Subject to the provisions of this subchapter, no qualified individual with a disability shall, by reason of such disability, be excluded from participation in or be denied the benefits of services, programs, or activities of a public entity, or be subjected to discrimination by any such entity.
Well, Wayne, that was the attitude I got from the government official. He was quite mad at me because I had my wheelchair behind his desk and could see his computer screen. I told him it wasn't my problem as his office, which was not a back office, but one used to talk to the public, was not handicapped accessible. That is when he responded that it wasn't his problem either. As you said, I could have made a court case out of it, but at that point in my life, that was the last thing on my mind.
The posh and picturesque town that juts into San Francisco Bay is poised to do something unprecedented: use cameras to record the license plate number of every vehicle that crosses city limits.
Some residents describe the plan as a commonsense way to thwart thieves, most of whom come from out of town. Others see an electronic border gate and worry that the project will only reinforce Tiburon's image of exclusivity and snootiness.
I can't recall anyone in a wheelchair at Centennial in 20+ years.
Could this be common sense triumphs over activism?
The last place I would want to be if I were in a wheelchair (which I have been in) is near water.
The ramp exists, if there is no friend or family member, I am sure a pool employee or passerby would be willing to help someone with the ramp if assistance were requested.
Do we also need to spend $100K on a lift for the very shallow end of the pool and personal swimming assistants?
The recent work on the Riverwalk added a wheelchair ramp next to the fountain on Main Street. IMHO going down next to the river in a wheel chair would be an act bravado bordering on suicide for someone in a wheel chair.
Sir you are entitled to your opinion. I would only ask that you not subject the disabled community to your own personal fears.
I'm sorry that you were afraid of water when you used a wheelchair, but does that mean the rest of us should be? In fact, physical therapy in a swimming pool is a terrific benefit to many disabled people. In fact, Centennial beach already has a chair lift to lower disabled persons down into the water from the edge of the pool. It's just difficult to get to that lift because of the 100+ foot long ramp.
One of the 50 states declared that they didn't need a lift to the courthouse because they would send a guard down the stairs to pull the person out of the wheelchair and carry him up the stairs. That idea was struck down in federal court. What you suggest in terms of getting help from passerbys at Centennial Beach is no different.
How, exactly, would a passerby 'help' a person using a walker navigate that 100+ foot long ramp at the beach? Carry them? Remember, it's not just about wheelchair users. People who use walkers and canes -- or use no assistive device at all, but have difficulty walking long distances -- are affected.
Is it too much to ask for the park district to spend maybe 1 or 2 percent of it's $5,000,000 budget for a lift so that disabled folks don't have to hope and pray that someone will help them down the ramp (and equally hope that the Good Samaritan doesn't accidentally injure either party in the process)
You seem to begrudge the fact that there is now a ramp to the lower level of the riverwalk. The ADA was signed into law 19 years ago and we just now have a single ramp to the lower level of the riverwalk? Whoa, slow down there. Those crazy, suicidal, disabled people ought not to get so close to the water. Oh, the bravado! Don't they know they could drown?
You have access to the entire lower level of the riverwalk with dozens of points at which you can get on and off the lower level. The disabled have access to only one section of the lower level of the riverwalk via only one ramp, yet you are put upon, sir?
Common sense over activism? I think in the case of the bathhouse lift, activism is common sense.
While not in a wheel chair, I do know others who are. Most are very able to control their chairs on ramps, etc. But it can be exhausting at times. So going down near the river is feasible. It does not matter whether anyone in a wheelchair has been seen at the Beach in 20+ years. (Maybe it's because it's not very accessible for them?) The point is that it is their right and the law for the beach to be accessible to them. The argument lies in what constitutes accessibility. Obviously the park district feels that the ramp meets the qualifications. Mr. Cummings does not. He is right that in the grand scheme of the overall cost, the addition of an elevator is not a huge addition.
Swimming is excellent therapy for people of limited mobility, those with arthritis (who also might find the steep ramp difficult), and others with a variety of physical needs. I personally would love to see better access for them.
In case you missed it, the Kennedys wrapped their speech writers and political machine around candidate Obama early on, and endorsed him over Hilary.
IMHO Ted Kennedy {the second most liberal Senator} and the rest of the family pull the strings on Pres Obama {the first most liberal Senator}. Same socialist agenda, new face.
Are the Kennedys endorsing him for American Pope?
The Democrats can't win without the NE Catholic vote, this has been true since FDR.
The below quote IMHO represents the triumph of the brainwashing in the Public Schools and the destruction of the Catholic Schools by government at all levels.
Kennedy's article:
"When Obama meets the pope tomorrow, they'll politely disagree about reproductive freedoms (abortion) and homosexuality (gay marriage), but Catholics back home won't care, because they know Obama's on their side. In fact, Obama's agenda is closer to their views than even the pope's."
Like President Trueman's daughter screeching at DAR Constitution Hall, are we going to be treated to someone on City Council's relative bleating on stage at the City owned (that's us the taxpayers) theater that Omnia is "giving to the city"?
I recommend that we pipe in the music from the Carillon that the was forced on the taxpayers at the tune of $5 million to build and god knows how much to keep.
I can't wait for the gang rap concerts after the public access lawsuits are completed.
What the residents of Naperville need at the train station is more parking; and, if we want to go upscale a covered station so you can get on the train and into the buses without getting rained on.
Parking combined with upper floor office and some ground floor retail and professional office spaces would be a better use of the property. Unlike other city parking projects, spaces at the train station can be rented at break even or a profit. Like a mall, a management group can lease the office and retail from the city and re-let the spaces.
Besides, the private sector North Central College just built their performing arts center. Why should the taxpayers get stuck with a public one that will probably be another financial sink hole?
California is leading the way to National Bankruptcy, the FEDs are goose stepping closely behind and Naperville wants to join the parade?
If it does get built, the city should be sure to include a soup kitchen so we can get some use out of it if we continue on the same path.
On the political side, the local politicians can ladle out the bean and water soup and moldy bread to our families after an hour of waiting in line.
The private sector unemployment rate is nearing 15-17%.
Housing and probably the economy will ratchet down again in Q3 and Q4 as the next waves of foreclosure hit the adjustable and now prime mortgage markets.
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By AC on July 12, 2009 9:37 AM
Anyone want to comment on Omnia Group? Was anyone at their public meeting a week or so ago?
The Homeowner Associations near the proposed Omnia site published a detailed rebuttal to their proposal, you can read it here; http://wow.lowtechnet.com/echo/positions.
They also have an birds eye view flyover animation of the whole complex you can download here; http://www.lowtechnet.com/omnia
If the city council approves Omnia then it will be proof positive they have lost their minds. The Tribune and Daily Herald both have had articles of a performing arts center in Hoffman Estates that the city is going to have to bail out, (own) just like the one in Arlington Heights a couple of years ago. These things get built, last a few years, run out of money, and the town has to bail it out cause its too big and important to fail.
No thanks, Naperville needs to take a pass on this gift.
Does anyone know how our fine, highly trained Naperville Police Department can bring 15 Felony Sex Charges against an Argentinian soccer coach and for the man to be found innocent of all 15 felony sex charges in a Will County Courtroom?
Expect a lawsuit from this gentleman very shortly that will bite heavily into our taxpayer funds.
I hope we settle quickly and not after expending millions of dollars to outside law firms defending our mistake. Hopefully, someone will be held accountable for bringing so many apparently false charges agaisnt an innocent man.
"IMHO Ted Kennedy {the second most liberal Senator} and the rest of the family pull the strings on Pres Obama."
What "rest of the family"? The only Kennedy who has any political clout, Ted, has clout simply because he's been around so long, and even he has been too ill recently to wield much influence. Everyone else has long passed--John Jr., Bobby, JFK, Jackie--or is politically irrelevant--Caroline and various cousins, or in jail. What remains of the Kennedy family isn't politically connected enough to pull anyone's strings. In case you haven't noticed, Gov. S. of California can't get the bail out he wants from Obama, and he's married to a Kennedy!
So find a better conspiracy theory. This one wasn't worth a post.
In need of cash to save their Tall Grass home from foreclosure, the poor victim in this case sees the families of the gymnastic coach (Cardomone) score big a couple of years ago when they cooked up a scam against him, ultimately getting him in prison on some pretty flimsy evidence and scoring big in a lawsuit against his business, its insurer and others. (yes, my opinion) In this recent case, our victims decide to do the same thing with a twist. They are not joined by other victims. This is their own score and they share with no one. (Remember her mother noticed some unusually long hugs) Then for whatever reason, you are not a very convicing victim or mother to a jury and the criminal case falls apart. Worse yet, your future civil target is actually found not guilty in the criminal trial. Now your civil suit is history and what is left? The police are blamed by the uninformed. I will remind the 7/12/09 4:52pm poster that the coach in this case was also indicted by a grand jury. No, I would not be in a hurry to settle this case.
An indictment by a grand jury means nothing. The joke amongst most prosecutors is they can get any grand jury to indict a ham sandwich if they want.
Longer than normal hugs don't constitute a sexual predator. Maybe in Argentina a 2 second hug is normal while in Naperville a 1 second hug is normal. Maybe a girl goalie is crying after letting a goal in and needs to be comforted for more than one second. How many young kids do you see crying in sports these days? Should we not hug them or only hug them with a stop watch in our hands?
This kind of evidence to be brought by any police agency or states attorney is shameful. It is disgusting.
I suspect the Naperville Police Dept. will be shelling out millions of dollars at your expense and my expense.
The bottom line is the jury who heard all the evidence has spoken and made a decision. There decision is final and not even appealable. We have barely paid for the Furstenau Case and no we have a new case right in our face. Dejavu!
The Obama nationalization of health care plan, is the Kennedy plan; written by Kennedy's staff.
I hope the rubber-stamp-legislature at a minimum goes through the motions and bothers to reads it before they vote to approve it (grabbing control of another 15% of the economy).
It is basically the same nationalization ideology Kennedy has been pushing since before Obama went to Harvard. Ted's alma mater.
Hope you don't develop any serious illness and are over 50. You'll be sent home to die with the words "you've had a good life". I know people this was done to in their "free medical care" countries.
..................
By what the? on July 12, 2009 9:59 PM
"What remains of the Kennedy family isn't politically connected enough to pull anyone's strings."
The bottom line is the jury who heard all the evidence has spoken and made a decision. There decision is final and not even appealable.
it's a shame that this simple statement can't be applied to all Defendants regardless of race, religion or gender. Some feel as though even though they were not there in the courtroom, they some how know what the outcome should have been and the jury got it all wrong.
If you have teenagers who want to bring a large group of kids over to your home or even basement, do not allow them.
Every time our kids have brought friends over, something of value disappeared. Amongst the most common things to disappear are cell phones, a Blackberry 11 days old valued at 567 dollars, and a small lap top.
Even if you allow your kid to go to a party drinking, there is a very good chance he or she will be stripped of his or her cell phone. One of our teenagers had their cell phone stolen 4 times. The last time it was stolen we had a good clue who stole it and arranged for a friend to "steal" it back from his car when it was unlocked. Of course, he denied taking it even though it was found in his car two days later missing the sym card. I guess some of these kids throw away the sym card immediately after stealing a cell phone thinking the police may chase them and locate them.
It has been agonizing raising teenagers. One would never think that so many teenagers in Naperville that attend Naperville Central and Naperville North could be thieves. I never would have imagined that when I moved to Naperville.
Grab your kids early and lecture them before they have 4 cell phones stolen. Buy them clothes with pockets and tell them to keep their cell phones in their pockets. Laying a cell phone down on a table or chair while you use the bathroom is encouraging someone at a get together or party to steal it.
Yes, we have tried to supervise kids when our kids had them over. It is not easy. Only God knows what they take when they go out to smoke their disgusting cigs. Only God knows what they steal through the basement windows. We even have alarm bars on our basement windows that they deactivate.
And if you have a cell phone stolen, don't bother calling the cell phone company or police to trace and locate it. They simply won't. I am not sure why they don't want to take criminals off the streets even though they have the ability. Or maybe police know the kids throw the sym card away and it is a useless endeavor. (I am sure Drew Peterson threw the sym card right where he wanted police to look for Stacy's body.)
Sometimes throwing these petty thieves in jail for a month when they are young, means we don't have to throw them in jail for 10 years when they are adults and become master thieves. I don't see any other solutions than jaling them for a while.
"The Obama nationalization of health care plan, is the Kennedy plan; written by Kennedy's staff."
Yes, the Kennedy plan was written by Kennedy's staff. Who else would write it?
And of course the two plans are very similar. Same party, same ideology. Obama's plan also reflects lessons learned from the Clinton administration's attempt to reform health care. Does that mean the Clinton family is pulling Obama's strings too?
"It is basically the same nationalization ideology Kennedy has been pushing since before Obama went to Harvard. Ted's alma mater."
And Harvard is George W. Bush's alma mater also. What is your point? Does this mean the Bush family is pulling Obama's strings?
As I've said before, these type of simple associations work well at stirring up the conservative rabble who don't know any better. I do. You'll have to dig deeper than this to support a conspiracy theory here.
For the few who think taxes are low in Naperville, please reveiw the data on the best place to live in 2009 by CNN/Money Magazine that is just out.
Estimated property taxes on a $325,000 home is $1,590. In Naperville estimated property taxes on a $325,00 home would be $6,500. Almost a $5000 dollar difference. Does anyone still believe our City Officials are not wasteful or our hard earned tax dollars?
And even with our very high taxes we still had an 11.5 million budget deficit and a 61.4 million pension deficit. Amazing!
Top 100 rank: 1
Population: 18,800
Typical single-family house: $325,000
Estimated property taxes: $1,590
Unemployment rate: 6.0% (county)
Fun fact: Rail service to Boulder and Denver is scheduled to begin in 2017.
Pluses: Hiking, biking, golfing, skiing…
Minuses: No major negatives (That’s why it’s No. 1!)
Some towns nestled along the Rockies are full of pretentious eco-hipsters. Not Louisville. Ice cream shops dot the historic downtown. Families grab burgers at the cozy Waterloo Café. A Friday-night street fair, with a beer garden, live music, and games for the kids, runs all summer. No wonder this down-to-earth town has appeared high on Money's Best Places list before--and on many others.
It's also weathering the economic downturn well. Robust industries in the area, such as high tech, energy, and health care, make county unemployment among the lowest in the state.
But the top reason residents give for moving here? The great outdoors. Louisville is laced with nearly 30 miles of trails, Rocky Mountain National Park is less than an hour away, and eight world-class ski resorts are within two hours. The town's schools are highly rated as well.
Add in dry, clear weather, little crime, good health care, and low taxes, and Louisville is pretty tough to beat.
City Officials believe the mountains give Colorado cities like Louisville an edge over Naperville. While that may be true, if I were a Naperville City Official, I would also compare the respective taxes in each city and see another blaring EDGE. While we can not do anything about the former, we can certainly do something about the latter and maybe one day be number one again.
And if we are determined to waste taxpayer money, I would like to suggest building a man made MOUNTAIN.
"Hope you don't develop any serious illness and are over 50. You'll be sent home to die with the words "you've had a good life". I know people this was done to in their "free medical care" countries."
Sure, we can tell how desperate people in Canada are to escape their health care system by the droves of Canadians that come across the U.S. border to use our health care.
This was sarcasm, in case you missed it. I've heard that conservatives have lost so much of their sense of humor that they can't tell when someone is making fun of them.
If what you believe were true, then Americans wouldn't be poking fun at "Hook a Cinook", Americans who marry Canadians to get the health care and prescriptions they can't afford in their own country.
Thank you for the information. My parents attended the public meeting and told us about it. I have been following it in the paper over the months and wrote in our letter of disapproval to the council.
My parents did catch the article about Hoffman Estates and forwarded it to the council as well. They also saved it in case this ever goes to public debate with the council. This project is such "pie in the sky", I cannot believe it would ever get that far.
Don't forget one big drawback of Louisville CO that I don't see mentioned. At over 5300 feet above sea level, they have snow. Lots of it. Up to 9 months out of the year. That's the natural resource that fuels the Colorado ski industry. Just something to keep in mind.
To the above who wrote as Advice to parents of teenagers
Having raised two teenagers who are now 19 and 21, I would have to question your kids' choices of friends. At this point we are going on 8 years of our home being a regular hangout for our kids and their friends. We purposely finished our basement before the kids hit high school, so that our home would be the hangout. The kids who are here are a mixture of Aurora and Naperville teens who went to Waubonsie Valley. We have never had an issue with anything being stolen from our home. Supervision was never an issue. Every kids who came over always made it a point to say hello to my husband or me before they headed to the basement. We kept all of the pop in the basement fridge and popped down there occasionally for things. It definitely wasn't hard to supervise them. Of course they were pretty good kids anyway and obviously did not need a high level of supervision. Even on the 6 separate occasions when we had 60 cross country runners eating pasta at our house the night before a meet (or having breakfast after an early morning summer run), nothing was stolen and nothing was damaged. They all knew smoking was not allowed on our property and also knew we had no tolerance for underage drinking. But then our kids don't have any tolerance for any of that either. Never had an issue with either of those things. The kids were loud at times, a bit rowdy or obnoxious at times, but never did anything that caused a problem or could be construed as illegal.
So maybe you should be looking at the choices your kids are making in friends? If those are the friends they are choosing, and those are the things that are happening when they hang out with them, then they need to make some changes in friends.
You are making a broad assumption that teenagers should not be allowed to hang out in groups and that when they do, bad things happen. I am pointing out that not all teenagers are that way.
Again, you need to look at the choices your kids are making, and not lump all teens into that group. Many, probably most, teens are great.
To: what the? @ 1:07 and 2:27
I've heard that conservatives have lost so much of their sense of humor that they can't tell when someone is making fun of them.
As I've said before, these type of simple associations work well at stirring up the conservative rabble who don't know any better.
__
Hey What the ?, OUCH!!!
I've seen the banter for the past few weeks between you and a few others, and think that a number of those debating you were over the edge and took it too far. But your last 2 posts seems to lump "us" all together. Yes, I am a republican conservative just like you are a liberal democrat. I would venture to say that I have as much distrust toward the democrats as you do toward George W. and republicans in general. Regardless of anything either of us write this will probably always be true - we will agree to disagree. I have a couple of staunch Democratic friends and we have these debates frequently, and we always laugh about it and move along.
I submit to you that whomever (whoever?) is President of the U.S. does not have as much influence over the world or economy as some would have us believe. (I'm not naive, they do wield a very big stick). Our Government is too big to think that everything is solely in one persons hands - the President works with Congress, the Federal Reserve, The Military, FBI, CIA and many many government and non government organizations.
Clinton seems to get credit for the 90's, but an equal case can be made that nothing happened financially until the Republicans took congress in 94. W Bush seems to get all the blame for anything and everything, but congress has been controlled by the Democrats since the elections in 06 (01 for the Senate itself). You have been quick to comment on W as a buffoon who had poor speaking skills - you would of had a field day with Lincoln! By all accounts he was a horrible public speaker. (The comparison between the two is only in regard to speaking style - not content - but style has been much of your claim).
As a conservative I will point out that at least W brought Credibility back to the white house - something Clinton never had in his best days. I expect a lot out of our president, and Clinton bombed on this while W, and so far Obama have at least been "Presidential" (whatever that means).
When Obama won, you were fond of telling the conservatives to get over it and move along. I'll do the same to you when it comes to W. We get it, you don't like the guy - move along. I hope to heck that Obama and the Democrats who control Congress can help influence the current situation. I'm a little skeptical that raising taxes on those who work and giving it to those who don't is the solution, but the Democrats are placing their faith in this and time will tell. (How's that for painting the democrats position with a broad brush)?
I realize you are sometimes responding to posters with "unique" arguments and facts, but I want you to know that there are some of us who share your passion, but at the opposite end of the political spectrum. I haven't even touched on Illinois State Democrats and where our state is headed, but that is probably best for another topic.
Good comments and information on the Omnia. I too am skeptical that this project won't turn into another tax boondoggle. Too often in the recent past Naperville has embarked on "free" projects that immediately transformed themselves and quickly began slobbering at the public trough. It's seems like it's a "given". As nice as it might be to have this facility, let's wait for better economic times before even thinking about it.
The "rest of family" refers to the moolah the entire clan put into the race last year. This includes the massive fundraising that was performed by a Kennedy, including Caroline in her pitiful bid to be appointed as Sen. Clinton's succesor.
Sorry, but no conspiracy theories here --- just facts!
What la-la land do you live in and do you ever do research before taking a stance?
The person who wrote earlier on the "long life" issue hit the nail on the head. Perhaps you should do a little research on NICE (England), which puts a dollar amount of $22,000 dollars on a six-month life extension.
Even better, you can review Obama's own words from his infomercial last month on healthcare: when asked a question related to a young woman's experiences with her very old mother who finally got some care, Obama answered that perhaps on certian diseases and ages our money would be better used, and more compassionate, with morphine versus actual drugs that cure.
Again, sorry to throw data at you as it is clear you think the debate on healthcare is strictly one of partisan politics and it offers you a chance to go on the attack.
I don't doubt anything you are saying. You have been extremely lucky. It is rare to have that many people coming in and out of your house that are all honest.
I would not recommend anyone trying it.
Just a few days ago my daughter invited a girl from Extreme Dance to our home that she trusted. This is a group that won 2 national championships in the last 2 years in Ocean Beach, MD and Las Vegas and are seeking a third consecutive championship next month in Myrtle Beach, S.C. Girls that practice their dance routines 12 hours some days to be the best they can be.
This girl she invited from the Dance Studio asked if she could have 3 male friends over that she was sure were 99.99% honest. One of the male friends from Aurora stole my daughters cell phone and the key to the house on the way out.
The girl's family has been awesome. They raided his car and retrieved the cell phone minus the sym card. They are pressuring his parents to force him to cough up the key to the house he stole from the door. It turns out the kid who goes to Waubonsie already has a break and entering conviction unbeknownest to anyone until we googled him.
As I said in my earlier post this was not the 1st time her cell phone was stolen. The other 3 times it was by Naperville Central and Naperville North students or graduates. The first time it got stolen while she was at a church camp in Indiana sleeping.
You have simply been lucky. It is rare to have 60 people over and have them all be honest. The odds of that are one in a thousand no matter how careful you are.
I like teenagers too. But they tend to invite each other rather loosely. They are naive. My daughter is very trusting like yourself. I have little doubt she will lose her 5th cell phone in the next 3 months. She goes to Church every Sunday and is a lovely and trusting kid.
I have met many many parents who simply no longer allow kids to hang around their basements anymore for the reasons I enumerated. I told my daughter she can only have one girl friend at a time that she knows well and no more boys.
Your post is very dangerous as I believe it is the exception. I think parents need to take extreme caution before letting their older teens have friends over.
Peer pressure is incredible to drink and party. Basement windows are common ways to smuggle the booze in the house. I have seen neighbors leave their teenage kids home while they take vacations. When they come back the house is ransacked. It looks more like a landfill than a home.
When we take vacations, the kids are forced to come with us whether they like it or not. We change the code, put back the alarm bars on the basement windows and set the alarm. If anyone decides to visit they will be confronted by the Naperville Police on the way out.
Trust me, you have been lucky. I urge all who read your post to be cautious and not expect the same luck. If you don't change your habits, your luck will run out. I can't tell you how strict I am and how strictly I raised my kids to be good kids and only associate with good kids.
BTW, we also furnished our basement before our kids hit high school so we could have a hang-out for them where we could supervise. It turned out to be a very bad idea. Don't count on your good fortunes continuing with that many people in and out of your home.
Look at that Florida couple and how well intentioned they were with 16 kids. An army of thugs planned a robbery and killed them. Any of these 60 kids you invited could have noticed you are well to do and could be planning a robbery at this time. Trust me, stop being naive and put your guard up before it is too late.
Make sure you have an alarm system and video surveillance at a minimum. And thanks for sharing your positive experiences. I will be praying for you that your experiences continue to be positive and most importantly safe.
Thomas: Don't waste your time on What the ? When upwards of 20MIL are out of work, Obama will get the blame. He is starting to slip in the polls and probably with 3rd quarter business results and umemployment figures you can make a safe bet his polls for economics will be equal to his grades for such courses in school; below 50%. He will blame Bush all he wants however more people will not care about Bush. Rather they will care about his incompetence costing them their prosperity and he will be held accountable. Remember, without Carter there would have been no Reagan. I suspect without Obama, there will be no Romney as one example of a person who does know something about economics and has a track record of economic success. And at the risk of going over the top, Obama will be shown for the ignoramous he is.
Our kids invite people to our home. Their friends do not. There is part of the issue right there. We know every kid who sets foot in our home. I was very involved with both of the kids teams in high school, tennis, track and cross country. I ran concessions, helped with parent communications, etc. As a result I also knew every kid on each of the teams. Therein lies the difference. We know the kids who come in our home (yes every one) and at the same time, most of the parents of those kids.
We are not naive, nor overly trusting, just involved. Like I said, every kid talks to us when they come into our home - some will even sit down on the couch with us to have a longer conversation. We know where they are all going to college, what they are majoring in, and where they are working this summer. In some cases, we even know some of the fears the older ones have about graduating from college next year. We have raised kids who do not tolerate any of the behavior you discuss from any of the people they hang out with. They have a decent number of friends, but have never felt it important to be considered "popular." They choose friends who have the same morals and standards. The kids they invite to our home respect our kids, ourselves, and our home. My son still has the same core group of friends that he had the first day of middle school. My daughter's group has changed since freshman year. When she saw some of her friends begin to gravitate towards some choices she didn't agree with, she started going to Young Life and found a whole different group of friends. (She is now a Young Life leader for a group north of Chicago.) She still talks to those old friends on occasion, occasionally grabs lunch with some of them, she just doesn't hang out with them when they are doing other things.
It is definitely interesting, because none of the parents I know well have had such extreme issues with their teens. Maybe it is more prevalent among certain cliques?
I still have to question the choices your kids are making in friends. Why didn't your daughter say no to the girl who wanted to invite other people to your home? Winning dance trophies does not mean someone makes good choices in friends. Why did these boys need to come? If you invite one person over, it does not mean anyone else they want to come can too. Get to know them outside the home before you invite them over.
Are we well to do? Probably not by the standards of the most the people around here. And we tend to live below our means. We have a nice house, but not a McMansion. We don't buy every bell and whistle we can to furnish it. We also don't replace everything our kids lose or do have stolen. When my son's Ipod was stolen at school a few years ago, he was responsible for replacing it. He just chose not to take it to school after that. When my daughter dropped and broke her cell phone, she worked to replace it (and went a bit of time without any cell phone at all.) As a result, they both are very conscientious and careful with their things.
By the way, the 21 year old still chooses not to drink, although he is now of legal age. He sees too much stupidity at college. (No, we are not teetotalers in our home. My husband likes a good beer and I occasionally have a glass of wine with dinner. We have raised our kids that there is a time and an appropriate way to use alcohol.)
By the way, my husband and I took a trip and left the kids at home for a weekend. We set up a few ground rules with the kids ahead of time. Guess what? Our kids continued to earn our trust. They did not have any parties, did not drink, etc. The house was exactly as we left it. The neighbors next door didn't even realize we had left soince nothing seemed any different than normal.
Given the current economic environment, is it time to transition the City of Naperville away from a fully funded pension program (paid for through property and other city taxes) and towards a lower cost / lower payout model similar to what most private companies now have? I understand that Naperville has a particularly high percentage of its revenue that goes to fund its pensions. Perhaps now is the time to address that.
I would agree with you and intended to mention that but my posts are generally long and I am trying to shorten them.
An example of critical mass is we only need one police station as they only need one police station. We only need one Police Chief as they only need one Police Chief. We only need one Park District Director as they only need on Park District Director.
Thus 143,000 residents are splitting the cost here where only 18,800 residents are splitting the cost there. This is I am sure what you mean by "critical mass" and I could not agree with you more.
And this town in Colorado was ranked number 1 for best place to live in the nation for 2009 spending less than $5000 in real estate taxes per 325,000 dollar home than a same priced Naperville home. It really is amazing. It shows and proves to me that our City Officials have been spending money like drunken sailors with no end in sight.
One example is spending 100,000 of hard earned taxpayer money on police overtime on a privately run PigFest that is being discussed currently on another thread. These are the little things or big things that end up increasing our real estate taxes and sales tax to almost unbearable levels.
Despite paying significantly higher real estate taxes, I bet our sales tax in downtown Naperville is higher than the downtown sales tax of Lousiville, Colorado. Anybody willing to bet me before I research it?
"The "rest of family" refers to the moolah the entire clan put into the race last year. This includes the massive fundraising that was performed by a Kennedy, including Caroline in her pitiful bid to be appointed as Sen. Clinton's succesor.
Sorry, but no conspiracy theories here --- just facts!"
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Oh, really? You claim to have "all the facts"? Then here are some facts for you:
Barack Obama (D)
Top Contributors
This table lists the top donors to this candidate in the 2008 election cycle. The organizations themselves did not donate, rather the money came from the organization's PAC, its individual members or employees or owners, and those individuals' immediate families. Organization totals include subsidiaries and affiliates.
Because of contribution limits, organizations that bundle together many individual contributions are often among the top donors to presidential candidates. These contributions can come from the organization's members or employees (and their families). The organization may support one candidate, or hedge its bets by supporting multiple candidates. Groups with national networks of donors - like EMILY's List and Club for Growth - make for particularly big bundlers.
University of California $1,564,490
Goldman Sachs $994,795
Harvard University $854,017
Microsoft Corp $833,617
Google Inc $803,436
Citigroup Inc $699,790
JPMorgan Chase & Co $695,132
Time Warner $589,334
Sidley Austin LLP $588,598
Stanford University $586,557
National Amusements Inc $550,683
UBS AG $543,219
Wilmerhale Llp $542,618
Skadden, Arps et al $530,839
IBM Corp $527,572
Columbia University $526,802
Morgan Stanley $514,881
General Electric $499,130
Latham & Watkins $493,835
US Government $491,420
So the Kennedy family is a top campaign contributor and is pulling Obama's strings? In your conspiracy theory dreams!! They are not even listed in the top 20. In your world view, there must be at least 20 contributors pulling Obama's strings before the Kennedy's.
Keep digging deeper--the FACTS don't support your Kennedy conspiracy theory.
We don't buy every bell and whistle we can to furnish it. We also don't replace everything our kids lose or do have stolen.
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Former WV Mom,
I knew your life could not be as perfect as you painted it. You slipped up in the above sentence and admitted your kids had things stolen too....just like my kids. So they have not always made good choices but I will hand it to you that they apparently made better choices than our kids since I am assuming your stolen items are less than ours.
BTW, we don't drink or allow our kids to drink. We don't smoke either and thankfully none of our kids smoke. So we have tried our best but have not always succeeded as you alleged to have in keeping losers away from our home and our kids.
I do find it hard to believe that you met all 60 cross country runners outside your home individually before you invited them in. I also find it hard to believe that none of your kids' friends ever brought another friend with them when coming over....that is a little unusual in Naperville.
You sound like you live in Utopia. I think you are in a bit of denial and it came out when you accidentally admitted that your kids also had items stolen from them.
I suggest you heed my advice and limit access to your home before one of these kids decides to case your house and rob it one day....hopefully not hurt you in the process.
If you think everything you have been doing is perfect, I suggest you have a meeting with the Naperville Police Dept. so they can tell you many things you apparently do not know. Trust me, you have been partially lucky and you are partially in denial.
Take the corrective measures I mentioned before it is too late. As I write I am listening to CNN talk about the nice Florida couple that were executed and I am thinking of you, your husband and kids and praying you will all be safe. We live in a world full of sick and vicious people.
And do you think my kids tolerate this behavior of stealing. Of course they don't. They get conned just like adults. Bernie Madoff conned thousands of highly educated and wealthy adults. Do you think it is that hard to con a 19 year older?
I think you are exaggerating just a bit...and it came out when you admitted your kids have had things also stolen. Were they robbed at gun point or were they with the wrong crowd? I suspect the latter. Please feel free to elaborate if you wish and lock your doors at night and be safe.
What you are referring to as "data" are actually case studies. Case studies are individual anecdotal stories that support a certain point of view. You can pull up "NICE" in England, ignoring the fact that Canada has the same type of national health program and Canadians are not storming our borders to get to U.S. health care. Fine, use England as an example; Britons are less likely to cross the Atlantic to get to "superior" American health care. That's a safer comparison for you.
If you don't think that U.S. for-profit health insurance companies use actuarial tables in determining whether or not to pay for treatment, YOU are beyond la-la land. I have first person experience in how the U.S. handles it's elderly patients. Here's my anecdotal evidence:
My elderly mother, who lives in Seattle, WA, became very ill this past April in the nursing home in which she lives. I reside here in Naperville, my sister in NY, and my brother in Heidelberg, Germany. We tried to persuade her to move to either Naperville or NY so me or my sister could oversee her care, but she refused. She insisted on staying in Seattle where her second husband, our step-father, is buried so she could "visit" him regularly. As a result, we arranged for her to reside in a nursing home in Seattle and appointed a state guardian to oversee her welfare as none of us could be there on a regular basis to follow her care. Her social security and disability income went directly to the nursing home to pay for her room and board. Her medical care was charged to Medicare, and the state of Washington paid for the guardian. We paid for her incidentals.
Starting in April of this year, my siblings and I noticed a change whenever we called to check up on her. No matter what time of day we called, the nursing staff told us she did not want to come to the phone. After about 10 days of this, I finally talked to a night nurse who pulled up our mother's file and told me, to my complete shock, that the state guardian had signed a DNR, "do not resuscitate", order on our mother. She told me that our mother had been refusing food and liquids for days, and that the guardian had recommended the DNR. Our mother was only being turned and made comfortable, the nurse told me, and "If she goes to God, she goes." I immediately called my sis in NY. We intervened and demanded that our mother be admitted to a hospital, then all three of us flew to Seattle to reassess her care. At the time of admission, she was dehydrated and in kidney failure. After a few days of IV treatment, which was all she needed, she perked right up, improved dramatically and told me, "I feel better than I have felt in weeks; in fact, I feel TOO good". She was discharged a few days later, and we made arrangements for her care to be followed by other professionals.
The point of the story is this: the state guardian claimed that my mother's age and financial status had nothing to do with the state's decision to sign a DNR, which my siblings and I will never believe. She is 82 and has outlived her resources, she is totally dependent on the federal and state government for care, and we, her children, pay for what overage we can. The state of Washington, being her legal guardian, weighed the cost of the care she needed vs. her age and decided it was more cost effective to allow her to slowly starve to death in the nursing home than pay for the care she needed to further extend her life.
So don't talk to me about England sending home patients to die as being exclusive of a government health program. It happened to my mother, three months ago, right here in the U.S. under our current system. The only reason she is alive today is because my siblings and I are now splitting the cost of the overage for her care. The state would have allowed her to die three months ago rather than pay for this.
And my brother, who has lived and worked in Germany for 20 years, is absolutely appalled that the U.S. health care system would "throw away" the elderly in this way. Sure, he pays almost 55 percent of his income to the state which covers health care, unemployment, retirement and God knows what else, but the elderly in Germany are never left to die in nursing homes the way our mother almost was simply because the cost of their care exceeds their resources.
So stuff your "data". Until you've dealt with this problem first hand like I have, all you're doing is regurgitating other people's experiences to support your opinion. And we've already established that your opinion isn't worth much.
The City of Louisville recognizes the value of providing business assistance to aid companies in locating to the City, and to encourage substantial expansion of existing businesses, in keeping with the overall economic development objectives.
Types of Business Assistance
Any sales tax business assistance is calculated on the City’s 3.375% less the City’s open space tax of .375%, unless the City considers a lesser amount to be appropriate.
What we have learned is the City of Louisville, Colorado which ranked #1 as the best place to live in the USA by Mony/CNN in 2009 has a real estate tax rate of nearly one fourth that of City of Naperville.
I decided to make sure the City did not have a high sales tax rate to compensate for a lower real estate tax rate. What I discovered is the city had a sales tax rate of 3.375% while the State of Colorado has a tax rate of 4.1%. The total is 7.475%.
The downtown Naperville City Tax rate is 3.5%. The state tax rate is 6.25%. The total is 9.75%. So both their city and state tax rates are below ours.
They even rebate the city portion of 3.375% for businesses who are willing to relocate to their City for up to 5 years as long as they fill up the Business Assistance Request Form and qualify based on Ordinance No. 1507, Series 2007.
It is really amazing how the best city in the USA can have a real estate tax rate less than one fourth of ours and provide all the services our city provides and maybe even more. Again, the taxpayers need to wake up and start asking questions.
The Naperville Sun, Daily Herald, and Chicago Tribune also need to wake up and get some real investigative journalists on this case instead of depending on an inexperienced Citizen Journalist.
PS. Every once in a while a blogger pops on here and states if you can not afford Naperville move out. In my opinion, this kind of blogger is a City Employee benefitting from a Big Fat Pension that he will receive at age 52 based on 75% of his highest and final pay. If a city employee receives an 80k pension at retirement, it is like giving him a $4,000,000 bank CD making 2% per year which is equal to 80k at taxpayer expense. Unbelievable!
If we continue giving each retired city employee $4 million upon retirement, when all 1000 finally retire, we will have given them the equivalent of 4 billion dollars. Is there anyone still confused as to why we as a city are heading towards BANKRUPTCY or Chapter 9 DISSOLUTION? Does anyone still doubt me?
PS II. Please don't forget to join us in front of City Hall next April 15 to protest this ridiculous taxation. Our goal is to double or triple our numbers from last year. We must be heard by the drunken sailors running City Hall. Apparently they did not hear us last year. So let us try to be a little louder. Please bring loud horns and megaphones with you next year.
PS III. Many thanks to the 50% who attended PigFest last year and decided to boycott it this year due to the abuse of taxpayer money on police OT and other reasons. Let us shoot for a 75% boycott next INDEPENDENCE DAY and see if they will get the message and stop abusing our hard earned taxpayer dollars on private activities.
By Time for Pension reform? on July 13, 2009 11:53 PM
Given the current economic environment, is it time to transition the City of Naperville away from a fully funded pension program (paid for through property and other city taxes) and towards a lower cost / lower payout model similar to what most private companies now have? I understand that Naperville has a particularly high percentage of its revenue that goes to fund its pensions. Perhaps now is the time to address that.
My son ONCE had an ipod stolen at school, not while in our home, I stated the "at school" part in the above post. There is a difference. It was in a locked athletic locker that was broken into. It had nothing to do with the kids who come to our home, or the kids that they hang out with, which was the topic I was posting on. I never said that they never had anything stolen, I said we had never had anything stolen from our home. Read carefully please.
A little unusual in Naperville, maybe, but I live in Aurora and it is one of the rules of our home. My kids and their friends know that only the people we have met come into our home. And yes I had met all the kids on the team (and their parents) since we always had a parent meeting and a pasta dinner at the school (something I helped the coaches plan) at the very beginning of the season. All of the boys on the team knew who I was and I knew who they were. I could actually cheer them on by name at all of the meets. I talked to the parents at the meets and at the meeting, as well as emailing them details on meets for the coaches. There was regular communication during the four seasons my son ran on the team, that also continued with the distance runners and their families during the track season. I will admit that my daughter's tennis team was easier since it was less kids. But I made an effort to be able to learn who each of the kids were on her tennis team, her girls track distance squad, his cross country team, and his distance track squad. Distance runners are definitely a unique sort of kid. They work extremely hard, 50 weeks out of the year, to do something that gets little glory or recognition at the high school, even though they are probably the most consistently successful team there.
I believe we don't have issues in our home like the ones you talked about because our kids make excellent choices in friends. We also raised them so they have a healthy bit of skepticism about people and don't get "conned" by others. They are all about actions, not words, and both "read" people well.
And at this point it isn't an issue. As I have said, my kids are now in college. We managed to get through 6 years of high school between the two of them with none of these things happening. The kids who continue to come to our home are the ones that they and we are closest to. If your experience has been different then I am sorry for you. But I would prefer to trust my kids, their judgement, and not live in fear. It has worked for 21 years so far.
I've missed your posts! I wish you would weigh in more often, even if it is with a scolding.
OK, point well taken. I will watch my "lumping" behavior more closely from now on. Sorry if I offended.
As you can tell, I really have no patience for extremist views of any kind, left or right, and the way "facts" are manipulated or misrepresented in order to support these views. To say that Obama is being controlled by one political family is as simplistic as claiming Bush was Cheney's puppet for 8 years, which I'm sure annoys Republicans to no end (Actually, I don't think so. I think W. was more independent than critics give him credit for. Right or wrong, he did what he wanted). And I have no patience either for apocalyptic predictions being stated as fact. No one knows how this is going to turn out. Doomsday scenarios seem to be just wishful thinking on the part of those making them.
You're right when you say any President is given too much credit, good or bad, over the world situation or outcome of the economy, that there are many moving parts and the President can't possibly control them all. But the buck stops with the President; he gets all the credit or all the blame whether he deserves it or not. It's how Americans view the Office. Which is why we see statements such as "Rather they (the American people) will care about his (Obama's) incompetence costing them their prosperity and he will be held accountable." Incompetent or not, he will indeed be held accountable. But if you add to this the inconvenient fact that Americans saw their prosperity disappear in a puff of smoke before Obama was even elected, then it becomes simply absurd.
There are two statements you made that you could probably help me understand. The first was the statement about the Democrats being in control of Congress for the last two years of Bush's run, and therefore that means they are to blame, whether entirely or in part, for the economic mess. I hear this a lot from Republicans, but it doesn't make sense. The Republicans controlled Congress for 6 years, three times as long as the Dems did. Six years trumps 2 when it comes to time in office screwing things up. By the time the Dems got back in, the damage had already been done to the financial and housing markets and the downturn was already in motion. My brother in Germany told me about the housing crises and its effect on the German banking system within months of the Dems getting control of Congress again, before it became newsworthy here. The mess was showing up overseas while Americans were still saying "what housing crisis"? So there is no way it could have been avoided by that point, and I do think the Dems were left holding the bag and the blame for this.
You also said W. brought credibility back to the White House. What do you mean by this?
By now I hope you realize that you’re having a discussion with someone who believes that anything outside of their own personal experience is preposterous. And given that he/she has been known to invent people and facts in the past, I have serious doubts that this dancing daughter and her thieving friends even exist.
I winced when I read the last sentence of my last post to you. That was uncalled for on my part. All I can say is that it was late, I was cranky, and this is obviously an emotional issue for me. But that comment was incredibly rude, and I apologize. Just because I don't agree doesn't mean your opinions don't have merit. Sorry for that.
Thank you. I realize it now. I just personality hate it when such generalizations are made about teens. While my teens are in no way perfect (my son is pretty lazy when he is not at work or with his friends; my daughter can't keep her room clean for anything and always overschedules herself), my experience with teens overall has been excellent. When I worked as a high school librarian, I always found you could counteract most issues that might come up discipline wise with the teens by merely taking an interest in them as people - asking their opinions, finding out their interests, and then asking how things were going academically, athletically, etc. It often seems that the kids who cause trouble are looking for something in their lives, whether it be attention (positive or negative), thrills, etc. The kids who have their needs met (emotionally too), while not being given all of their wants or sometimes being asked to work for those wants, seem to be the best adjusted. Sometimes this takes an element of sacrifice on us as parents. But that's what we got into when we became parents.
Mr. Investigative Journalist, your last three posts have all been insulting which is why they are not published. I don't want to go down that road again.
Again, you focus on the reaction and not the action that started it.
Why did you post TB's post in essence calling me a liar while I was being truthful?
It is hard for me to understand why you allow people to personally attack ME constantly for no reason.
I respectfully disagree with you that I have been insulting to anyone. I do call people out who lie about me. If you want to call that insulting, be my guest
Why do you allow bloggers to call me Sybil? Why the name calling? Why do you allow bloggers to constantly attack me the MESSENGER instead of my MESSAGE?
I am being sincere in asking you these questions. I hope you take the time to answer them publicly.
Personally, I feel you did not publish my last 3 posts because I exposed lies about me that could be verified as lies if one wanted to make a phone call or two or check my published data.
Anyway, it is your blog site and can be biased if you choose to be biased.
Anyway, I hope you publish this post so that bloggers know I take issue with your interpretation of my posts.
In my humble opinion my posts are always filled with rich facts from my research and investigative reporting. More than any other blogger on this site.
You take it too far which is why I stop publishing things. I've told you this before so this shouldn't be anything new. Calling people liars or saying you're going to give it to them up the wazoo are inappropriate. It's really easy to post on this blog without having any problems and most of the bloggers do so. You can do it too.
Obama is at the All Star game. In the locker room its like an episode of Boyzz in the Hood. Looking very presidential indeed. Unemployment continues to rise, people are out of work and Obama is in Michigan earlier today telling auto workers their jobs are not comming back. They should go to community college and learn new job skills. For what? There are no jobs fool. Democratic party economics is only about creating government jobs. News flash: most government jobs require little technical knowledge and little formal education. They of course do require an indoctrination of ideas. Meanwhile we have just reached $1 Trillion in budget deficit spending and on track to reach $2 Trillion by the end of 2009. Bush never got us above $500 Billion in deficit spending in any of his 8 years. Obama got us from $458 Billion to $1 TRILlion in his first 5 months. Now if you really think this country is going in the right direction, I can hardly wait to see the train wreck as it becomes apparent that none of these people have any clue what they are doing. Look at the democratic party leadership in DC. Where did it come from? California and Chicago, Illinois. A failed state controlled by democrats and a failed city, again controlled by democrats. It seems that FINALLY the costs of liberal social policies will now break the bank.
If your experience has been different then I am sorry for you. But I would prefer to trust my kids, their judgement, and not live in fear. It has worked for 21 years so far.
I have no doubt you are being truthful in relaying your experiences. I would like to assure you, I have also been very truthful.
I also feel you have been extremely fortunate. I have had to call the Naperville Police on more than one occassion. I have had discussions with many police officers. They have told me about 27% of the kids that go to our high schools are bad news with police records which are many times criminal.
Both the police and the Naperville Sun had reported that up to 70% of the kids in our schools drink alcohol illegally before they graduate. A smaller percentage smokes dope. So I don't know why you or anyone else would think I am making things up here. Most times they plead guilty, obtain supervision and it is not part of this 27% record that teens in Naperville have with the NPD.
Banks and retail stores go through extreme measures to hire honest employees. They interview them, talk to them, put them through background checks, have them take honesty tests and in the old days even polygraph tests before they became illegal as a standard for hiring. They try harder than you do....but they fail.
Most theft in businesses is insider theft, something you may not realize.
If you were as good as you say in judging character and honesty, Wal-Mart would probably pay you a million dollars a year to institute your system of detecting honesty amongst their employees and you would save them a billion dollars a year in employee theft.
While I believe you are well intentioned and being honest, I believe you are out of touch with reality. You may have been lucky so far in your life. But don't count on it if you are going to continue to trust people the way you have. As I said a couple in the panhandle of Florida also trusted people for over 21 years and people who visted their home to perform work ended up executing them. Not one psycho but apparently 6 grown men and a 16 year old juvenile conspired to committ this despicable double murder. Truly, a very sad story. A heart breaking story since they had 16 kids.
My daughter has been on Extreme Dance for years and competed nationally in Ocean City, Las Vegas and will be seeking her 3rd group national championship this month in Myrtle Beach. Extreme Dance in Naperville next to Office Max on Ogden Ave have won 2 consecutive National Championship and they are seeking their 3rd in a row. Please feel free to call them if you don't believe me.
We are hoping they will win their third in a row. As a good parent I will be there supporting her and her teammates and not blogging. (Maybe I will blog a few times so the Moderator can track my IP in Myrtle Beach, S. Carolina to prove my honesty.) It would be nice if the Naperville Sun can give this group some coverage after they hopefully win their 3rd consecutive National Championship in HIP HOP and hopefully their first in JAZZ on July 25th through 29th of this month in Myrtle Beach, SC.
And speaking how easily one can be conned in this world, you believed this character TB when he told you I did not have a daughter who dances and that my stories of theft were made up.
I guess your judgment of character has been proven to be so good that you would potentially allow a person who lies like TB into your home. You even thanked T.B. for providing you with lies. And you really want us to believe you are a good judge of character?
I think I have made my point that while you are a very nice and well intentioned lady, you are not as good a judge of character as you once thought. Maybe you will agree with me and maybe you will not.
I think you can see from your foil’s reaction (or should I say over-reaction?) that your judgment is just fine.
I said I had doubts about the voracity of Anon’s posts, mostly due to the past use of many different handles to pat herself on the back and also her admitted invention of different occupations. It seems that if Anon believes she can “relate” to someone, then she can post as that person—even police officers. Given this track record, who’s to say if Anon really has a dancing daughter or can just relate to someone who does?
I also find it curious that someone with so much apparent contact and need for the NPD has in the past called various NPD officers scum, fascists, and other insulting words I’m sure Chris won’t reprint here.
No, Former WV Mom, I’d say you have very good judgment.
Did I ever say you lied? No. Do I believe that you are someone who believes that anything outside of their own personal experience is preposterous? Yes. (That is the part of T.B.'s post I was responding to. I should have been more specific.) You seem to believe that everything is bad, negative and if someone doesn't realize that they are naive or lucky. I have merely been pointing out all along that my experiences have been quite different.
As I have said, my experiences have been quite different. They are my experiences. I prefer not to live my life like you do and obviously have not needed to. I guess my kids tend to hang with the 73% of teens who do not have criminal records and the 30% who don't drink illegally before graduation (according to your statistics above. Better stats are at http://www.thepowerofchoice.info/) I am not overly trusting. I take the time to get to know the kids who come in my home and the kids who I worked with.
Maybe you need to start asking why your experiences have been so different than mine? (And yes I have been entirely truthful about my experiences.) Could it be because you are looking for the negative? Could it be the choices your kids are making in friends? Or are they unable to stand up to so-called friends when they are making bad choices? I am lucky (although their upbringing probably had a lot to do with it) that my kids have made excellent choices in friends, that they can stand up for what is right, and believe that true friends do not ask you to do anything that you would not choose to do yourself.
Personally, I think most of the people on these blogs do tend to exaggerate, skew statistics, etc. to prove their points or just to get reactions. Since there is no way to truly know who anyone is, they can get away with it. However, if there is anyone who reads these blogs who actually knows me in real life, they probably know exactly who I am based on the things I have said in these posts. And they would all attest that these things are true and not exaggerated. These have been my experiences with the teens I have known.
By the way the cross country pasta dinners were a weekly occurrence. I always held the second one (the first was the one at the school.) Other parents, both Aurora and Naperville, signed up to have them after that. None of us ever had an issue with theft, vandalism, etc. at a WV CC dinner.
Do I believe everyone in the world is honest? No. I am not crazy. I have all along merely pointed out that your experiences and attitudes are not the only things out there. I hate when people generalize about any group of people.
Nothing you post conflicts with what I wrote ---- the Kennedy clan was IMPERATIVELY involved in fundraising activities for Obama. This doesn't mean that they, personally, had to reach into their pockets. What they did was both host fundraisers, and appear at others, to strong-arm donors to kick in the bucks.
Re: your two questions: I didn't mean to write or imply that the Democrats (Congress) are to blame because they were in control of Congress. Like you (but in reverse) I often hear that Clinton was solely responsible for the boom in the 90's and Bush is solely to blame for the current economic situation. My belief is that the President is but one cog (albeit a major one) in the wheel we call Government. If someone wants to credit Clinton, or lambast Bush they need to at least acknowledge the fact that Republicans were in control for 6 of Clinton's 8 years, and the Democrats were in control for Bush's last 2 (Senate for his last 6).
When my Democratic friends say things like you did: "By the time the Dems got back in, the damage had already been done to the financial and housing markets and the downturn was already in motion." I take this to mean that you lay all the blame on the Republicans, while I am simply saying there is plenty of blame to go around. I wouldn't be a good Republican if I didn't think the Democrats are more to blame than the Republicans, but I would probably put this at a 60/40 split. If you look at the current mortgage mess, it seems pretty clear that at least "part" of the problem was Barney Frank and Charles Rangels insistence that FNMA and Freddie Mac make 20-30% of their loans to low income borrowers.
As for the credibility issue, like I said before, I detest Clinton as much as you detest Bush. IMHO, what Clinton did with and to Monica was reprehensible. I felt like Democrats simply overlooked this with comments like, "Hey, it doesn't affect me", or "who hasn't lied about sex?" etc. etc. This kind of excuse making drove me crazy. I expect much more out of a President, and this includes their personal life, decision making, and respect for the American people. When Clinton lied to us all (regardless of what the lie was about) it sealed it for me. W Bush was a straight shooter and what you called "cocky" I call "confident".
this doesn't mean I don't wish W would have done things differently. I don't want to make this an encyclopedia, but I'll let you know that in hindsight I don't like the Iraq war, BUT the failings of this war are a result of years and years of misguided information gathering by informants, FBI, CIA, national security organizations that include both Dems and Repubs. The belief at the beginning was that Saddam Hussein was a "Hitler like" (notice I say "Like") figure who without a doubt killed many of his own people, and was trying to kill many others. Democrats at the time all joined in this view and we started a war. It now drives me crazy that labels such as "Bush's War", "Unilateral War", etc. are used. I even had a friend who tried to tell me that this was the first war that we attacked first without provocation. I'm not the best at history, but I asked my friend if he thought that Germany attacked us in WWII and if he thought we should have even gotten involved in Europe in 1941? I then wondered if he thought that FDR staged a unilateral war and if he supported Hitler's demise? The conversation ended rather quickly. We have a number of examples where the U.S. joined a war / police action in an effort to help the people or protect our interests.
Oh well, I wanted to jump in sooner, but you were waging a number of battles and I didn't want to butt in. BUT I wanted to stick up for my view and call you on what I felt were all or nothing conclusions.
Thomas on July 15, 2009 10:16 AM
I even had a friend who tried to tell me that this was the first war that we attacked first without provocation. I'm not the best at history, but I asked my friend if he thought that Germany attacked us in WWII and if he thought we should have even gotten involved in Europe in 1941? I then wondered if he thought that FDR staged a unilateral war and if he supported Hitler's demise? The conversation ended rather quickly. We have a number of examples where the U.S. joined a war / police action in an effort to help the people or protect our interests.
I know, I know, pretty confusing. I forgot to include that my friend tried to make the case that the Iraq war was the first war where we weren't attacked first. My response was that Germany never attacked us yet we joined WWII. I could have added Vietnam, Korea and WWI to the list of wars that we were part of where the U.S. itself wasn't attacked, yet we joined.
Using this logic, WWII against Japan would have been the only "just" war entered into - of course Hawaii wasn't a state yet, but they did attack our base.
Nothing you post conflicts with what I wrote ---- the Kennedy clan was IMPERATIVELY involved in fundraising activities for Obama. This doesn't mean that they, personally, had to reach into their pockets. What they did was both host fundraisers, and appear at others, to strong-arm donors to kick in the bucks.
------------------------------------------
That the Kennedy clan was imperatively involved in fundraising is much different from saying the Kennedy clan is pulling Obamas strings now that he's in office. It's the pulling strings part that sounds conspiratorial. All fund raising is imperative in nature, that's why people do it. So what if they hosted fundraisers and "strong-armed" donors. That's what EVERYONE does. It sounds more like you resent the fact that the Kennedys were very good at it. Sour grapes, anyone?
By Former WV Mom on July 15, 2009 8:52 AM
Did I ever say you lied? No. Do I believe that you are someone who believes that anything outside of their own personal experience is preposterous? Yes. You seem to believe that everything is bad, negative and if someone doesn't realize that they are naive or lucky. I have merely been pointing out all along that my experiences have been quite different.
You never said I lied. Thank You. I appreciate that since I have been truthful with you as you have been truthful with me.
Sometimes, I also wonder if you believe that anything outside of YOUR OWN personal experiences is preposterous. That comment slices both ways. Keep in mind I have told you repeatedly that you seem like a nice lady and believe you have always been truthful with me but that does not mean I can not disagree with you and question your judgment.
The one area where I disagree with you strongly is that you claim that you have this inherent and magical ability to meet someone and kind of size that person up as to whether he is good or bad, honest or dishonest.
I told you Wal-Mart would love to have a person like you work for them in order to never have a dishonest employee ever walk through their doors again. You ignored my comment. In my opinion because you know no one is as good of a judge of character as you claim you are. And I will repeat, NO ONE!
I don't think the world is bad. I don't think teenagers are bad. But my experience is that they go through a very rebellious phase at one point and associate with the wrong people, intentionally or unintentionally, and get themselves in trouble. I try to guard against this but have not been as successful as you have. I still believe you have been very lucky.
And sometimes kids can't learn who is worthy of association and who is not worthy of association until and unless they make a few mistakes. My kids definetly have made mistakes and possibly are a little wiser for their mistakes.
I have another older daughter who went to visit friends we trust at their parents home after prom and somehow alcohol found a way through the basement windows of that home. My daughter did not drink and had just gotten there. As soon as she got there she was arrested with dozens of others. I guess they have a law in Naperville that allows them to arrest teenagers if they are around alcohol even if they are not drinking.
My older daughter also invited people who ended up causing trouble and stealing. Is she a bad person because she can not tell an honest person from a dishonest person? Anyway, she is in her second year of medical school and doing very well. I could not ask for a better child but we did have a couple of difficult years with her associations even though she went to church and was always in the top 10% of her class.
I know a great successful neighbor who has 4 children. Three are the best you can imagine. One turned out to be a loser and is currently in jail. Now if you were judging kids by their parents and upbringing, how would you know this kid is a bad apple if your kids wanted to have him over. His siblings are all in graduate school while he is in jail.
My issue with you is that you state you can judge honesty by meeting someone briefly. In my opinion, you can not. I believe I am of the majority opinion and you are of the minority opinion.
I know I am repeating myself but how many successful people met Bernie Madoff and gave him their life savings to invest for them. Ten of thousands thought he was an honorable and honest man. He was in all their social circles. In the end, he stole 65 billion dollars from all his friends, acquaintences, colleagues and even relatives. Are you telling me, WV Mom, you would have given him the once over and been able to detect that he was a dishonest person?Even the SEC put him under a financial microscope and could not tell he was running a ponzi scheme for over 2 decades.
As I said if you have these abilities you say you have for judging honesty, please visit Wal-Mart. I am sure they will pay you 1 millin dollars a year if you promise them a crook will never pass through their employment doors again.
I am not trying to give you a hard time but I believe you are wrong when you state you can judge a book by its cover. As a librarian you should know what I am talking about.
In an interview with one of the candidates for Governor in California yesterday; it was discussed that in the Constitution, States have to honor their contracts too. Therefore, the IOUs are unconstitutional and any vendor holding them can sue the State in court and win.
The point was, once there is a "first mover" in the courts, it will rapidly "snowball" since no vendor will want to be left out of the judgments; and, California (like E. St Louis) will be forced to liquidate it's assets to pay the claims, fees and any damages.
Assets include State Parks, buildings, roads, police cars....you get the picture. The FEDs are already making a play to grab California's parks.
As a direct result of the insane Federal Spending, "dollar dumping" may start by foreign governments and no one will want to get left holding worthless greenbacks. Like musical chairs. China and Russia are doing everything they can to start the stampede out of the dollar. It will be as devastating as a nuclear attack on our economy, and we will have shot ourselves.
Your appraisal of the situation is far-too-modest; you need to think in terms of 30-40% unemployment, major cities under martial law, imported goods like oil shooting up 300-1000% in a matter of weeks. This is the road we are on. Just like all of the collapses in social-justice-Argentina, once a first world country. Maybe, Madonna will be invited to the White House to sing for the people.
Look at the sales of gold and guns, the move is already on.
If big grabbing government worries you now, wait until the FDR like emergency decrees start coming out demanding all gold etc be given to the FEDs. Bank's safety deposit boxes were frozen by the FEDs in the 1930s, this is why private safe's are going into so many houses as I write. FDR did it, Obama and the Dems won't?
Maybe, the congress will vote in the "emergency legislation" in the middle of night after they fail to read a single page. This trend is already clear.
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By Anonymous on July 14, 2009 10:20 PM
Look at the democratic party leadership in DC. Where did it come from? California and Chicago, Illinois. A failed state controlled by democrats and a failed city, again controlled by democrats. It seems that FINALLY the costs of liberal social policies will now break the bank.
By Wayne Cummings on July 10, 2009 12:31 AM
Despite a budget of $5 million tax payer dollars, the Naperville Park District's plans for the renovation of the Centennial Beach Bathhouse do not include an elevator for disabled citizens. The board feels that the long steep sidewalk from the parking lot down to the beach is adequate for the needs of residents with limited mobility.
So I've challenged the board members to take the 'Centennial Beach Accessibility Challenge'. Meet me at the site and see if you can climb into a manual wheelchair and wheel yourself from the parking lot, up, up, up to the bathhouse and then down, down, down to the pool. If you can make the round trip without overexertion then you can decide against the elevator in good conscience. We'll videotape the experience so that the public can witness how easy it was for you to make that trek.
So far, none of the board members have accepted my challenge. So I ask all Napervillians to sign this petition urging the board to provide an elevator or lift as part of the bathhouse renovation.
Top 100 rank: 1
Population: 18,800
Typical single-family house: $325,000
Estimated property taxes: $1,590
Unemployment rate: 6.0% (county)
Fun fact: Rail service to Boulder and Denver is scheduled to begin in 2017.
Pluses: Hiking, biking, golfing, skiing…
Minuses: No major negatives (That’s why it’s No. 1!)
I posted the above and no one has explained to me yet how Louisville, Colorado can charge one fourth of what Naperville charges in real estate taxes for the identical price home especially since Colorado sales tax and income tax when combined are lower than Illinois sales and income tax.
If Naperville is so efficient, can anyone explain this?
Of course it costs more to run Naperville since it is a bigger city. But Naperville also has more homes that contribute to the tax base.
So we are talking about pro rata. We are talking about per home.
My understanding of WWII events is that the U.S. did have just cause in fighting against Germany, just not Japan, because Hitler and the Japanese had entered into a pact as allies. Their partnership consisted of supporting each other in the war towards the same goal and, as we found out later, dividing the world between them at its completion. So, yeah, I think that qualified the Germans for U.S. retaliation.
WWI, Korea and Vietnam were different. The Lusitania was a British vessel, so a U.S. ship wasn't directly targeted but over 100 U.S. civilians died anyway because they had the misfortune to be on board. And Korea and Vietnam took place during the Cold War era when the U.S. felt it was necessary to our national security to assist other countries in fighting the spread of communism. But still, the U.S. did not provoke any of these wars, we were either drawn in or joined in later. Iraq was different in this way. So doesn't your friend have a point after all?
Regardless of the reasons, the U.S. DID invade. First, suspecting Hussein of being implicated in 9/11 was the reason. Then, when that was disproved, the probability of him developing WMDs was the reason. Plus, Saddam did try to have Bush Sr. assassinated, so you know it was personal for W. At the time, it did seem like the Bush administration kept digging until they unearthed enough probable cause, and then sold it to Congress this way. The Bush administration really did push to go into Iraq, so I think this is why it's seen as "Bush's War".
At any rate, I don't "detest" Bush; that's too strong a word. More accurate would be to say he was often an embarrassment, not on purpose, he was just being himself. A lot of the abuse Bush got from the media was because the verbal gaffes and antics he put out for public consumption gave the media so much to abuse him with. And now many Republicans are crying "not fair" and "media bias" because they don't see Obama getting his fair share.
The two men have totally different public personas. I got into this with a another blogger on the previous open topic thread, so I don't want to be redundant and repeat it here. You used the word "cocky", so I suspect you've already seen it. But a lot of the things Bush got abused for Obama would never do or say to begin with, so you really can't compare the two.
I don't detest Clinton either, but I agree his behavior made a mockery of the Presidency and embarrassed our country. It bothered me that he still had so much influence during Hillary's campaign. And I can agree with your 60/40 assessment of blame for the economic crisis, that seems reasonable. And definitely, the seeds for this economic mess were sown years ago when Frank required that Freddie and Fannie make a certain percentage of their loans to low income groups. I can't remember the exact percentage, but my understanding at the time was that it was a small percentage of overall loans, so 30% seems high. At any rate, if banks had stuck to the recommended percentages, we would not have had a mortgage crisis. The crisis occurred because bankers and Wall Street realized they could make a killing by bundling these risky loans and selling them and so turned making risky loans into an industry in itself. Fannie and Freddie were never intended to be used this way. A well-intentioned program was perverted, basically, by the profit motive, and deregulation and lack of oversight by the SEC allowed it to go undetected until much too late.
So there's definitely more than enough blame for everyone. But just about all the posts that come across this blog on the subject make all or nothing conclusions about Democrats. In fact, there's a good one right now from Anonymous on July 14, 2009 at 10:20 PM. So when dealing with all or nothings, I tend to respond in all or nothings, because a more moderate approach doesn't seem to make an impression. This is when I tend to lump. Keep in mind I do know the difference, it's just a part of my blogging style I need to work on.
And this is for you Anon on July 14, 2009 at 10:20 PM: If a president is going to let down his guard and have some fun, a locker room is a very appropriate place to do it. But I'm sure what the media will be focusing on is the pitch. It was high, a bit soft, and, well, girly. Yes, I will admit it! Obama throws like a girl!! Good thing he prefers basketball. Stick with what you know, dude! I'm going to tune in to Hannity tonight just to see how much mileage he gets out of this.
And butt in anytime, Thomas. Your comments are always welcome.
If you want to talk about unjustified wars, study the Mexican-American War and the Spanish-American War sometime. Both were thinly-veiled land grabs started under little pretext. There's a good book on the Mexican-American war by Ike's son, John S.D. Eisenhower, that I'd recommend. Countries could get away with wars like those in those days. If we fought one like that now we'd be condemned by every nation in the world.
If big grabbing government worries you now, wait until the FDR like emergency decrees start coming out demanding all gold etc be given to the FEDs. Bank's safety deposit boxes were frozen by the FEDs in the 1930s, this is why private safe's are going into so many houses as I write. FDR did it, Obama and the Dems won't?
I agree that the state of the economy is a disaster and the other shoe is about ready to fall. That is why I trade stocks and refuse to own them for the long term as I see nothing but gloom and doom ahead. I don't want to be holding the knife when it falls.
But I have never heard of the government demanding the people's gold. Or freezing private safe deposit boxes. This seems DRACONIAN.
How do you freeze a safe deposit box? Are you talking about the government forcefully unlocking them and taking whatever they find in them of value? I am sorry but you have me very confused.
Could you provide your source for this and please elaborate a little if possible?
To:Citizen Investigative Journalist on July 15, 2009 4:25 PM
For God's sake, just read your history!!!
ALL gold was taken by FDR (He didn't streal it ---- jst wanted it all in Gov't hands) and safety de[posit boxes were opened. In fact, until the late 80s, the Feds would open safety deposit boves upon the death of the individual who owned it (and banks were under federal order to do just so).
Come alive, man, and learn your history instead of just getting it from katie Couric, or CNN, or any --NBC affiliate.
The entire FDR section is worth a read, same rhetoric and thinking as FDR who kept the economy in depression while pursing "social justice". The article favors FDR, it forgets to mention that just after the gold was seized, the dollar was drastically devalued, a 50% tax.
In a controversial move, Roosevelt gave Executive Order 6102 which made all privately held gold of American citizens property of the US Treasury. This gold confiscation by executive order was argued to be unconstitutional, but Roosevelt's executive order asserts authority to do so based on the "War Time Powers Act" of 1917. Gold bullion remained illegal for Americans to own until President Ford rescinded the order in 1974.[50][51][52][53]
Part 2 Inflation used as a tax. Obama and the Democrats are on the road to hyper inflation as a way to tax all savings, hence the gold hoarding that is going on. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard
John Maynard Keynes, who had argued against such a gold standard, proposed to put the power to print money in the hands of the privately owned Bank of England. Keynes, in warning about the menaces of inflation, said "By a continuous process of inflation, governments can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens. By this method, they not only confiscate, but they confiscate arbitrarily; and while the process impoverishes many, it actually enriches some".[
". . . same rhetoric and thinking as FDR who kept the economy in depression while pursing "social justice"."
KEPT?! FDR KEPT the economy in depression? I'm sure maintaining the depression was on his daily "to do" list. Confiscating gold from citizens? Raiding safe deposit boxes? Where do you guys get this stuff--Dickipedia?
another funny california fact. my sister and her husband retired after 30 years at various jobs while living in california. they moved to NC to escape the madness and now they are hounded by the california department of revenue. you see, they are required to pay income tax on money they receive from pension accounts earned while they lived in california AND they have to pay income tax in NC, their new state of residence. isn't government grand? i think it was said above we are getting to the point where we cannot afford government. lets quickly have another 1000 page none of the democrats read bill and vote it into law. obama said today we need to buck up. we cannot have insurance companies making decisions about treatment. it is better left to the government he implied.
By Anonymous on July 15, 2009 10:23 PM
you see, they are required to pay income tax on money they receive from pension accounts earned while they lived in california AND they have to pay income tax in NC, their new state of residence. isn't government grand?
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NC as the resident state should give them credit for the taxes paid to California against the taxes owed to NC. It is a hassle though to have to do 2 state tax returns with tax credit calculations.
I almost forgot, unless the Federal Income Tax form has changed, there is a unique box you can check and take a tax deduction for a safe deposit box.
When I pointed it out to my accountant 10 years ago and the reason, they began advising their clients to eat the cost of the box and keep their information from the IRS.
By Anonymous on July 16, 2009 12:18 AM
Citizen Investigative Journalist,
I almost forgot, unless the Federal Income Tax form has changed, there is a unique box you can check and take a tax deduction for a safe deposit box. When I pointed it out to my accountant 10 years ago and the reason, they began advising their clients to eat the cost of the box and keep their information from the IRS.
The IRS can track safe deposit boxes very easily. Most banks require you to provide your real name, show ID, provide a Social Security Number and many times a driver's license before they let you open a Safe Deposit Box. The IRS has access to this information just like they do to your bank accounts.
If you write a check to pay for your Safe Deposit Fee that could also lead the IRS to your safe deposit box. Of course, it is wiser to pay cash each year for your safe deposit box if you want to put another hurdle in front of the IRS.
When you fill out 1040 Schedule B for the IRS to show your interest income, you are pretty much telling the IRS where you bank. If they want to find out if you have a safe deposit box, they will visit the banks you bank at first, with a subpoena of course.
But here is the catch. While the IRS can review your in and out card for your Safe Deposit Box with a subpoena, they can not enter your Safe Deposit Box.
A safe deposit box as well as your home are almost always off limits to the IRS. Rarely will a judge ever give the IRS permission to enter your home or safe deposit box.
There are exceptions. If you rob a bank and the police actually see you hiding the stolen money in your safe deposit box, a judge will issue a subpoena allowing the police or IRS to open it or break into it. This is one of the very rare cases the IRS can penetrate your safe deposit box. So don't rob a bank and let anyone see you take the stolen cash to your safe deposit box and it will be SAFE.
Your business or office is a different matter. It is very easy for the IRS to get a Judges order to penetrate either.
It is also not wise to take an office deduction on 1040 for a home office if you want to keep your home off limits to the IRS.
Therefore, a Safe Deposit Box is a very SAFE place to keep your valuables, gold, cash, or something you want to hide from the IRS. The IRS will most certainly know about your Safe Deposit Box. But the IRS will also most certainly NOT be able to enter it.
In summary, the IRS does NOT need you to take a deduction on 1040 Schedule A for your safe deposit box, to know you have one. They have many other ways of finding out. Having said that, I agree with you and your accountant that you should not take the deduction especially if you are trying to hide something, but it is not a fool proof method to avoid detection. Even if they detect your Safe Deposit Box, they can NOT enter it unless you literally lead them to it after robbing a bank or retailer or whomever.
I hope this information is not too confusing but I believe it is very accurate, as it was obtained from very experienced civil and criminal IRS defense attorneys, many of whom were former IRS agents.
I’m not here to re-hash our previous discussion on W vs BHO and the media, but I found this point of yours interesting:
“…the Bush administration kept digging until they unearthed enough probable cause, and then sold it to Congress this way….”
Remember that the Brits, French, and Germans all believed as the U.S. did regarding Iraq’s WMDs, but the French and Germans differed in how to handle the situation. Hans Blix of the IAEA later stated that he believed Hussein kept up the “lie” of WMDs as a deterrent, a fact confirmed by recent stories of Hussein’s FBI interrogations (though interestingly as a deterrent to Iran, not the U.S.).
And I don’t think this was necessarily “sold” to Congress by W. Bill Clinton’s administration believed there were WMDs and Hillary famously stated that she’d independently come to the same conclusion.
W may have pushed for the war, but Congress jumped in with both feet until it became unpopular. Then the Dems (with the possible exception of Hillary) ran for the hills and cowardly blamed the whole thing on W.
“Remember the Maine!” You’re correct that the Spanish-American and Mexican-American wars were thinly veiled land grabs.
Interestingly, whether we attacked Germany “unprovoked” in WWII is sort of a mute point. We didn’t declare war on Germany, they declared war on the U.S. on Dec 11, 1941 and started moving U-boats to our East Coast in Jan 1942 to attack commerce ships.
In fact, from what I've read, I believe most Americans would have been happy to deal with Japan after Pearl Harbor and not get involved in “Europe’s war”. However, Hitler’s declaration of war gave FDR the freedom to get involved in Europe as he’d been longing to do for some time. If not for Hitler’s miscalculation, we may never have gone “over there” for a second time.
so let me get this straight. they leave california and move to NC. they receive NO government services or ANYTHING from california yet california can still tax their income in retirement? and while they live in NC and receive services from NC, NC has to give a credit?
I didn't realize the Germans and Japanese were in cahoots and going to divide the world once complete - knowing what we know about Hirohito and Hitler I wonder how nice they would play with each other? Oh well - that's another topic.
My "friend" (actually my brother-in-law (D)) in his effort to make his case that Iraq is W's war, tried to claim that this was the first war where the U.S. reacted unilaterally and without provocation, i.e. he tried to claim that since we weren't directly attacked we should have stayed out. The Lusitania is certainly an example of U.S. loss of life, but hardly a compelling reason to join in WWII.
In Vietnam, Korea and both World wars we were drawin into the battle to aid our allies, and/or protect our interests - certainly not because we were responding to a direct attack. Whether you agree or not, the reason for Iraq was to eliminate a genocidal dictator, stop his obtaining weapons of mass destruction, and protect our interests. My previous point about intelligence gathering (FBI, CIA, faulty info etc.)is an effort to point out that not only is intelligence a near impossible task, it can result in faulty conclusions. If you look at the data available before the war, W was not the only one who believed weapons were being obtained, manufactured or sourced by Hussein. It's convenient to blame W now, but come on - guys like Hussein or Bin Laden didn't start their escapades the day W took office. This was a complete failure of the entire U.S. method of gathering info, espionage, spying, whatever you want to call it. Again, something shared by both parties. So if you want to call Iraq "Bush's War" you join many with this label, but would you be ok if I then called Vietnam "Kennedy and Johnson's war"?
As for "media bias" it is a right of passage to be a Republican and also claim Media Bias! People watch and hear what they want and need to make their own decision. You have commented on "Faux news" (your words) as being conservatively bias, I have indicated that MSNBC is Liberally biased. Who's right? I don't know - we can probably both make a case. This blog is famous for telling people to move if they don't like something, I'll simply tell anyone to stop watching something if they don't like it or agree with it. Personally I read the NYT and watch CNN and MSNBC in addition to the Journal and Fox news. I see the differences from BOTH in how they report stories. The Liberals seem up in arms about how Conservatives dominate talk radio - liberals have tried (air america), but can't seem to draw an audience. Conservatives are up in arms over what we perceive to be bias from NBC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC, heck even WTTW has Bill Moyers who you must admit is Liberal. So maybe the answer is that Liberals should watch TV, and Conservatives should just listen to the radio.!!
Yes. I know that on a blog it is often an all or nothing proposition, and extreme cases and points of view are often given, and they deserve an equally extreme response. I purposely stayed out for a while as you were "debating" a few posters at a time, and know that you were fighting fire with fire.
Your agreement on the 60/40 split in blame I guess makes us less extreme than some - but you do know that I am laying the 60 to the Democrats? (assume you switch the numbers to Republican blame?) I am fiercely a loyal Republican, but do see both sides, which I believe you do as well.
Have I ever said your experiences were preposterous? No. I have pointed out that there are many of us out there who don't deal with these issues with their kids. I was not the only parent to host the cross country kids for dinner each year. They had anywhere from 4-7 a year, held at people's homes. No one else had issues with the kids either. (Well, except the one time one of the kids overate and vomited as a result.)
So this started with your general statement of "If you have teenagers who want to bring a large group of kids over to your home or even basement, do not allow them" followed by the descriptions of what has been stolen from your home. I have all along been trying to point out that there are others out there who have not had these things happen. In our case, we had rules that our kids and their friends respected. And I do think the fact that I take an interest in the kids makes a difference to. Never claimed to have a magic touch, but obviously something we are doing has been right. The teen years, and now early adult years, have been a breeze.
Am I lucky? Maybe a little. But I believe a lot had to do with parenting. My kids chose not to rebel in the ways your daughter did and other kids do. Do some kids rebel? Sure. The rebellions we had were: my son refusing to get his hair cut, no matter how shaggy it was, until the state track meet each year. His theory was he could cut some time off at the most important met by cutting his hair then, not earlier in the year. Kind of like swimmers who shave before a big meet. Truth is? It actually seemed worked for him. He cut a decent amount of time from his 800 that way. My daughter's rebellion was choosing to get a tattoo this year when she got to college. It is about 1", the word "FAITH" and is on her foot in an area only seen if she is entirely barefoot. (Even her flip flops cover it up.) She spent a good 6 months considering it, talked to me about it, and while I wasn;t entirely sure about it, I respect her decisions. For her it is a daily reminder of why she makes the choices she makes. Interestingly, while we have a certain level of faith in our home, we have not been regular churchgoers. My daughter chose to become more active on her own, not through our making her. (I know plenty of people who went to church regularly whose kids were rebellious. Church in and of itself does not a good kid make. There has long been a stereotype of the pastor's kid as rebellious. It's how much the kids believe and buy into the teachings that will make the difference more than anything, not if they feel they have to go or it is merely a habit or routine.)
I still strongly believe that these things that happen are often the result of their choices or often not speaking up when friends make bad choices. They are sometimes afraid of being ostracized as a result, losing those friends, being considered "uncool." My kids have always been willing to speak up, didn't care if they were considered "cool," honestly had no desire to be part of the group considered cool since they did not like how those kids acted or treated others not in their group, and were able to find others who felt the same way. In both cases, others have looked to them as positive roles models. Especially in my daughter's case. When she first started with Young Life at Waubonsie, within a couple of months, she was able to bring in quite a few others to the group. It's part of why she was recommended for leadership and is now a YL leader. Her leaders here could see how great of an influence and impact she has on others around her.
The thing is, their friends also are great kids, who make good choices. In some cases, it has been the influence of my kids that has helped them continue to make good choices.
So I guess it all comes down to... what has been different in my home (and the homes of many of my kids' friends) that has allowed us to raise kids who make good choices, hang out with others who make good choices, and seem to be a positive influence on others around them so that they want to make good choices too?
Thomas, Lutsitania was WWI, not WWII, but it was just the most extreme example of a growing trend. The Germans were getting desperate because of the stalemate in the war so they began unrestricted submarine warfare, which means they were sinking ships from any nation that were heading to one of the belligerents' ports. If you look at history, how a war is judged is mostly about how the leaders at the time were able to spin it and how quick and bloodless it was. The Spanish-American War was based on an "attack" on an American ship in Havana that was probably in reality an accident. But the war only lasted three months and was a huge success, and our troops lost more men to disease than the war. The enemy were the Spanish who no one particularly cared about. Does anyone remember why we invaded Grenada or care about it? No. It was quick and easy. Even in wars that eventually proved unpopular like Vietnam and Iraq, they were popular as long as we seemed to be winning. The American people will only give you so long to win, and then they start questioning your purpose and demanding an end. Even in the Civil War, in summer of 1864 most people thought Lincoln would never be re-elected because the war seemed to be dragging on and most people had started questioning if it was worth it. The Dems were running a candidate who wanted to make a peace agreement no matter the terms. If not for a few big wins before the election, we could have easily lost the war because of public opinion. The point is, if Iraq had really been over when Bush stood on the aircraft carrier with the mission accomplished banner, the vast majority of people would have been happy with it. It's only because it kept going that people really started looking into it closer.
Yes, I know you are laying the 60 percent split on the Democrats. Like I said, the Dems developed Freddie and Fannie, and Clinton repealed the Glass-Steagall Act separating investment and savings banking. Both of these together turned out to be a toxic combination that set the stage for our second economic meltdown.
Again, I don't doubt a word you say. The world is really different from one family to another. One thing excellent is you are dedicated to your kids as we are dedicated to our kids.
Speaking of tattoos both my older daughters threatened to get them. I am totally against any tattoo on the body and told them if they got them they would be on their own. Thankfully, they backed down on the tattoo issue. Even though tattoos are widespread these days, I think they are distasteful and ugly. Each and every single one of them. I like the human body the way God made it. I stopped watching professional basketball because I started feeling it was a Tatto Show instead of an NBA game.
You seem to understand that rebellion is very common amongst teenagers even though your kids have not been involved in a major rebellion. My youngest daughter is in love with the "loser of all losers." Or she thinks she is in love with him. I am sure it is an infatuation.
Anyway, I threw him out of my home permanently. He is not even allowed within 100 yards of my home. He is a thief and a druggie and I think my daughter wants to save him from himself and be his SAVIOUR. She is way over her head and thinks she knows what she is doing.
Anyway, thankfully her car broke down and we salvaged it for 175 dollars to the junk yard. (BTW it was a FORD and it was Found on the Road Dead...lol...) She wants me to help her buy a new car and I told her over my dead body. That when she dumps this idiot, I will help her buy a car. So far she has chosen the idiot over a car and she has been without wheels for a month.
I guess she will need her wheels to go to school. So we will see who is more important, school or the "loser of all losers."
I am hoping she will come out of this rebellious temper tantrum soon. He also does not have a car due to license suspensions so they're in "love" but have no means of seeing each other. Yes, this is the daughter that is competing for a National Crown in Mrytle Beach in JAZZ and HIP HOP dating the "loser of all losers."
I am a very strong willed person. I really don't care if she misses her second year of college. Of course I cut her allowance to. And she does not have a job because her dance group requires her to dance 50-70 hours especially in recent weeks as they are determined to go for the National Championship and not only compete but win it.
Anyway, I learned when I was younger time can heal infatuations and crazy love. I feel the longer we can keep her separated from this bum, MOTHER TIME may solve the problem of this "relationship." Hopefully, she will find something better to do with her TIME when dance season is over than hang around a bum.
What advice do you have Former WV Mom? Most neighbors and friends tell me the more I pressure her the more she goes the other way and to leave her to act her insanity out. I left her alone for a few months but her SAVIOUR BOND with the low life got stronger instead of weaker, so I am no longer taking the advice of neighbors and friends since it did not work.
I am putting maximum pressure on her and I think my will is stronger than her will and I will break her will. I am determined to do that and I hope I succeed.
The only thing I am doing for her is sheltering her and providing food for her. No extras. I think she is surviving OK and we are, since this DANCING she does is very time consuming and demanding. They expend so much energy and calories there practicing that even though she is slender and very athletic she needs to eat double servings for each meal. She sleeps like a lamb each night due to exhaustion from dance so we know where she is each night....in her bed where she should be. I guess the busier one can keep thier kids the less chance they can get in trouble during their rebellious teenage years.
After her dance extravaganza is completed in early August we will see what she decides to do with her time and life.
Since I won't be paying for her education while she "loves" this bum, she will have to get a job to pay for her own education and wheels to get there. I suspect she will be working so many hours to make ends meet and if you throw in study time, she will have no TIME for the bum. At least that is my plan for now.
Investor extraordinaire Jim Rogers has harsh words for the government’s interventionist economic policy.
That policy, which he dates back to the Bush administration, verges on communism, he told Moneynews's Dan Mangru in an interview.
“America now owns the car industry. America owns the mortgage industry. America owns a lot of the insurance industry,” Rogers said.
“Karl Marx must be somewhere standing up in his grave cheering.” And why is that? “America has become a socialist and maybe even communist nation in many ways,” Rogers said.
In Asia, by contrast, “they’re not doing that. In Asia, they’re getting rid of state and government ownership,” he said.
As for stimulus, Rogers said that President Bush approved two packages, President Obama one, and now there’s talk of a fourth.
“The first stimulus didn’t work. The second stimulus didn’t work. The third stimulus hasn’t worked,” he said. ................
..............Rogers isn’t too happy with the massive monetary easing the Fed has engineered under Chairman Ben Bernanke, either.
“Printing money has been tried many times throughout history in many countries,” he said. “It has never worked in the long term; it has never worked in the medium-term. Occasionally, it has worked in the short term.”
Still, he says, “Printing money is going to lead to serious problems down the road.” (translation: hyper-inflation and currency-collapse)
The amounts involved are staggering, Rogers said. “They’ve already injected huge amounts of money into the system. The Fed has more than tripled its balance sheet in the past year or so.”
The federal government “has increased its own debt by four, five, six times,” he said..............
Dude, I am not the one who spoke of a conspiracy of string-pulling. i was just clarifying for you that the Kennedys raised huge dollars for Obama.
Note that only the most naive believe that this level of fundraising does NOT result in a quid pro quo.
In fact, if you are ever "lucky" enough to go to the WH and meet a President, you will find that there are different locations (ie oval versus other rooms), handshake styles, and possible gifting (pens, pics, pics w/ sigs, etc) based on donations.
The LARGEST and best of these goes to those who bundle/arrange for the largest sums, as the Kennedy's did. These same people are at the top of the pecking order when it comes to ambassadorships.
One belief out there is that Caroline was to get Hil's Senate seat, but to credit the NY community, they did not fall for it.
I think it was you defending the proposed Kennedy National Healthcare act and said the Euro &Canada models were superior. If not, this is for whoever did write that.
Let me add some facts for us all to ponder:
>>Currently in Canada there are 800,000 people on a waiting list of 18 weeks or longer for imperative care & tests
>>Britain has a 1 million person waiting list to get into a hospital, with a 200,000 person waiting list to get on the waiting list!
>>Britain currently cancels (at the last minute) aprrox. 100,000 surgeries a year based on payback mosels (this is over and above the surgeries they never approve in the first place)
>>>The United States system has the highest survival rates in the world in 13 of the 16 most common cancers. Example? In the U.S., the prostate survival rate is 91.8%, while in France it is 73.7% and England is at 51%
Finally, you mentioned infant mortality rates. I would point out that you might want to research what constitutes infant mortality. I say this because one og the highest rated countries a very civilized far=noth European country) counts children who die in the first few weeks of live as NOT having been born, thus not in their death stats.
Only the most naive would believe that there is no quid pro quo for the heavy fundraising performed by those who bundle and organize large groups of donors (like the Kennedy clan did with Obama).
It is these "bundlers" that are at the top of the favor list.
If you are ever "lucky" enough to visit the Wh and meet a President, the level of donations has a pecking order that determines where you meet him (oval, etc0, what type of handshake you get (or don;t get), and whether you get a gift, such as a pen, pic, or pic & signature.
As you can hopefully guess, the bundlers like the Kennedy's get all the top treatment. In fact, this is also the pecking order for ambassadorships.
There is a common belief that the quid pro quo for the Kennedy support and fundraising was twofold:
1)Support for a Kennedy Healthcare Bill so Ted can die with a legacy (that being the same old program he has been pushing for 40 years), and
2)Caroline would get Hil's vacated Senate seat. To gove credit to the NY population, they did not accept this outcome
I'm grabbing little snippets of time whenever I can.
The German/Japanese alliance was called the Axis Pact and it was signed in 1936 or 1937, can't remember which. Both Germany and Japan had expansionist ambitions. Japan was miffed at the U.S. because it was attempting to limit their expansion into China by interfering with their fuel supply. So Japan made an agreement with Hitler that they would assist each other in winning the war and then divide "ownership" of the world between them. So when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor and the U.S. declared war on them, that's why Germany two days later declared war on the U.S., because of their pact with Japan. Big mistake on Hitler's part. Huge.
Funny thing is, I saw a program on the History channel a while ago that said upon the war's end, the Allies found documentation that indicated Hitler was working on a plan to declare war on Japan after WWII. He had no intention of sharing ownership of the world with the Japanese. No honor among thieves.
Chris Magee, moderator on July 16, 2009 11:13 AM
What the? on July 16, 2009 6:15 PM
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Just my luck I've entered a debate with most likely two history majors? Oh well, I should have googled the Lusitania, but thank you for the history lesson. I believe it is true that Presidents are forever linked with the events that occur during their time in office - whether it is completely their fault or not. Bush will be the 9/11 and the Iraq war president, and history will treat him as such although I am hopeful there is a reasonable balance.
That's probably why those Presidents still living are always trying to promote their legacies while they can.
Chris, I was going to scold you for being part of the liberal media, but figured you would have a good answer for that as well. I do want to mention that the way the wars and events are covered today put today's public officials under much more scrutiny than any of those in the past. Some of the bombing runs in WWII that leveled complete cities are not possible today due to the coverage and outrage that would surely follow.
I really liked the Grenada reference as well - can you believe we joined with the Jamaican military to defeat the grenadians?
You're right, Thomas, I was a history major, and America's wars is one of the areas I specialize in because I believe they are among the most transformational moments in history. I've said before that I think it would be interesting to speculate how the Bush 43 presidency would have gone without the Sept. 11 attacks, because he came into office as someone who planned to focus on domestic programs and who was expected to stay out of foreign affairs, but 9/11 changed that completely. You're right that we'd never get away with things like the firebombing of Japan or the attack on Dresden today. It was a different time and for most people the more enemy dead, the better, civilian or not. While I am in the liberal media, no one who knows me would consider me a liberal, and I work with a lot of conservatives. I try to view history through the lens of the time it happened. If you try to judge historical events by modern values it really isn't fair or productive.
The tide turned in Iraq when Bush pulled all of his PC restrictions off of the military and allowed them to win.
The surge started with 155MM howitzer shells (the American way of annihilating our enemies)raining into part of Baghdad for three days straight.
Once the Sunnis knew the gloves were off, they chose the silver over the lead.
An Intel officer told me the way you know you have eliminated a terrorist cell in Iraq is when you have killed or captured the Saudi running it. This guy had done both.
I would argue the tide turned in Iraq when the Sunni tribes started fighting the terrorists instead of fighting against us or passively allowing the terrorists to operate in their land. Vietnam demonstrated a lesson that continued to be true in Iraq and Afghanistan - if you don't have the population on your side, you will never win because the terrorists always have places to hide. When they hide among the villagers and you use your airstrikes and big guns to go after them, you turn more civilians against you. That was the flaw in the battle plan in Iraq. We were depending on our superior technology to overwhelm the Iraqis. Technology is great for beating armies, but once the armies are destroyed and it's small bands of insurgents fighting in the cities, the technology doesn't help you anymore. There was a good article in Time magazine recently about this as it applies to Afghanistan. The new general there told the troops to stop using airstrikes because they were killing too many civilians and turning people against us. Most civilians aren't on either side and just want to be left alone. If you want to get them on your side, you need to show that you are the better alternative and that you can protect them from the terrorists on the other side. As it is, the coalition strategy in Afghanistan has been to go after the terrorists, drive them out and then leave. As soon as we'd leave, the terrorists would just come back and retaliate against anyone who cooperated with us. Now the strategy is to recapture the territory and hold it, which you have to do if you're not just going to tread water.
No history major here, sorry to say. Mine was a double in health care administration and psychology. I'm not surprised that Chris is; his command of this stuff is scary. I learned more than I cared to about the Lusitania when my youngest researched it for a school assignment two years ago. It's amazing how much we can pick up by proofing our kids history papers and references. I always knew Japan and Germany cooperated in WWII, but I rediscovered the Axis Pact a few years ago when helping my oldest with AP World History. Not very glamorous, but that's all it is.
Interesting trivia on the Lusitania before we put it to rest: I remember reading that the wreck of the Lusitania was found a year or so ago off the coast of Ireland where it sunk. On board was found millions of rounds of ammunition. So the German's hunch was correct--the Lusitania was being used to smuggle in war materials.
"Remember that the Brits, French, and Germans all believed as the U.S. did regarding Iraq’s WMDs, but the French and Germans differed in how to handle the situation. Hans Blix of the IAEA later stated that he believed Hussein kept up the “lie” of WMDs as a deterrent, a fact confirmed by recent stories of Hussein’s FBI interrogations (though interestingly as a deterrent to Iran, not the U.S.)."
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Whoa, there! My memory of events is different. The Brits were the only ones who agreed with the U.S.'s WMD theory. I remember the French and Germans sitting around with their thumbs up their you-know-whats saying "show us more evidence", "give them more time" and refusing to commit to anything, as usual. It makes sense that Saddam would keep everyone guessing on the WMD thing as a deterrent to Iran, so I find that believable.
I also remember Congress giving Bush approval to act as he saw fit in Iraq because they felt the U.S. needed to send a unified message to Saddam that it was willing to go to war if he didn't shape up, but most felt this final step would not really be necessary. Surprise! It's like Congress was telling Bush, "yeah, we said you could, but nobody really thought you would!"
Maybe we should check with our resident expert. Chris?
I'm not really comfortable claiming to be an expert, but I remember it pretty much as T.B. describes it. Most of the world believed Hussein still had WMD, which is why the sanctions were still in place 12 years after the end of the Gulf War. The question wasn't so much if he had them but what we should do about it. The European countries wanted to go with more sanctions and U.N. resolutions, whereas Bush wanted action. In college I took a class on Middle Eastern history and we read a book on the U.N. inspections. I wish I could remember what it was called because I'd like to go back and read it. Anyway, this book had accounts by former U.N. weapons inspectors where they described Iraqi guards keeping them waiting at the front gates of sites they were trying to inspect while they could see trucks speeding out the back. This inspector had absolutely no question that there were WMD in Iraq. I certainly believed there was, not because Bush said so but because of other sources I had read on the subject. I am still very surprised they didn't find any and I still wonder if there might be some way they were hidden or smuggled out. It just doesn't seem to go with Saddam's personality to believe he just destroyed them as he was supposed to. I do think that how What The? describes the French and Germans is basically accurate though. I think they thought there were WMD in Iraq, but they wanted undeniable proof, and even if they had it I don't think they would have agreed on an attack because they were stuck on the diplomatic solution and didn't think the threat applied to them, and therefore a war was not in their national interest.
To Anonymous on July 16, 2009 5:12 PM
To Anonymous on July 16, 2009 5:14 PM
To Anonymous on July 16, 2009 9:53 PM
Good God, I'm being attacked by Anons! I can't tell which of you originally posted what, so I'm going to lump all my responses together and let you guys figure out which one applies to you:
Yes, I have been to the White House, along with a lot of other people on a tour. I didn't get anything when I went, but my two-year old at the time did toddle off into a roped off area and the secret service guys were very nice about it, if that counts.
I never claimed there wasn't a quid pro quo for heavy fundraising. It exists on both sides of the political aisle. This is part of "politics as usual". What I disputed was Anons claim that because the Kennedys were very good at fundraising for Obama, they were "pulling his strings" now that he was in the White House. This sounds like propaganda tinged with paranoia. Everyone knows the Kennedys did a lot of fundraising for Obama, why wouldn't they? Same party, same ideology. But the amount they raised didn't even break into the top 20, per a previous list I posted, unless they bundled their donations under the name of Goldman Sachs.
My favorites were, "One belief out there is that Caroline was to get Hil's Senate seat, but to credit the NY community, they did not fall for it" and "there is a common belief that the quid pro quo for the Kennedy's were two fold". So what if this belief is out there? Got any proof of that? People can believe anything they want. I heard today on the radio that there are tons of people who believe the first lunar landing 40 years ago was a hoax filmed on a movie lot. They have no proof of this, but they still believe it.
All I can say is if Caroline expected a Senate seat and Gov. S expected a bail out for their fund raising efforts, it hasn't worked out too well for them, has it? And health care reform was promised by Obama during his campaign, so he's not passing it now just for Ted. So exactly why are you griping about this? Slow conspiracy week?
I was not the one who was defending the proposed Kennedy National Healthcare Act and said the Euro Canada models are superior. Nor have I seen any discussions on infant mortality rates. I was the one who posted my personal experience with my mother in response to a blogger's post stating that people over 50 will likely be sent home to die without care under a government option like they are in England. I was simply stating this is BS. My experience shows that this happens to the elderly here in our country right now under our current system, that this is not exclusive to a "government option". My brother has worked and lived in Germany for 20 years. They have socialized medicine, and he says the care has always been excellent. What happened to our mother here in the U.S. would be scandalous by German standards and would never occur there. So all the BS promoting the fear of lack of care is just that, BS. Don't waste your time, I know better.
And the stats you've listed are worthless unless you post their source. Everyone knows stats can be manipulated to prove anything, and without knowing the source and determining its validity these statements are worthless. I don't take everything I read at face value. So like I told the other blogger, stuff your data unless you can substantiate it.
Chris, nice job but you left out some important facts including why some of use believe the UN has dirty hands in the Iraq War if you wish to call it that. Officals with the UN were circumventing and negating the value of the embargo by taking oil futures under the table in return for aid to Iraq. These amount to hundreds of millions of dollars in bribery and corruption that has not been dealt with to this very day. On one hand the UN weapons inspectors are working officially while behind the scenes UN corruption totally negated so called "diplomatic" efforts at resolving the issues the rest of the world had with Irag. And it is always amazing that simple people can only call it GW's war.
It appears Naperville is nowhere to be seen in Money Magazine's '100 Best Places to Live'.
No longer number one, not in the top ten, not even an honorable mention in the top 100. It must be our high taxes and the high housing costs. The only towns in Illinois that made it to the top 100 are Batavia (56), Buffalo Grove (65), and Glen Carbon (91).
While you obviously hate tattoos, they have become a much more accepted form of expression in the last 10-15 years. They are becoming more and more common. As far as the human body being beuatiful as it is comment: do you or your daughters have pierced ears? Are you okay with people getting plastic surgery? I think if you are against tattoos for that reason, you have to be against all of those other things for the same reasons.
As I said, my daughter put a lot of thought into her tattoo, had valid reasons for wanting one, and got one that has strong personal beliefs behind it and is in an inconspicuous place. That tattoo does not impact how we function as a family, it does not impact how she acts around us or towards us. I believe as parents we need to pick our battles. Superficial battles such as hairstyles, clothing, piercing, tattoos, etc do not impact how we get along on a daily basis. Like I said, she discussed it with me in detail. My final word on it was that she was an adult and could make her own decision, but needed to think it through completely. In the end this was a decision with strong personal merit, not a tattoo that she wants to show off to others and not a spur of the moment decision.
I think I will take my daughter's tiny inconspicuous religious tattoo over a loser boyfriend any day.
Advice:
1. Taking away education could be more harmful in the long term. Education may be exactly what she needs to break away from this person. Personally, I would encourage her to look at colleges in another state or at least more than 3 hours away. Distance and a new environment with new friends may give her the time she needs to see him in a different light. Even if it takes financial sacrifice, it may be worth it.
2. I would have to say that in some ways, it is too late and you may have to ride some of this out. I will agree that pushing too hard may make things worse. I think that my kids didn't rebel due to the work we put in from the time they were born. Logical consequences were always part of the discussion and punishments in our home. I was talking to a friend with very young kids last week and she was asking how we raised the kids. She told me at that time that what we did seemed to follow the principles of a discipline technique called "love and logic." I was just looking at those on Amazon, and "looking inside" like you can there. I think that may be very close to the style of parenting we had in our home from day one. We are a very logical family overall, not much drama, or over emotional outbreaks. I noticed they have on for teens... look it up. from what I saw online there may be some good tips in there.
3. Does your daughter talk to you when she is upset with her boyfriend? If so, instead of telling her what to do or advising her, push it back at her. Say "what do you think about that? What are you going to do about that? How do you feel about that?"
4. When she had been caught in situations that aren't what you want, don't yell or threaten, ask her how she found herself in the situation, why was she there, is this what she wants to be involved in, etc. Make everything about her and her choices. This may get her thinking differently Instead of being a person who was put in a situation by friends, the thought becomes that she was involved in the decisions putting her in that situation. This could start her thinking differently too.
All of these are the kinds of things we have done with our kids all along. It was always about decision making, logical consequences of choices and actions, and their personal responsibilities in those areas. Along with the fact that we loved them. As a result, they were quite prepared in those areas when they finally hit the teenage years. They were prepared for making the right decisions and had already thought them through. We had discussed all the issues that might come up. When I worried about my son when he went away to college and how we would deal wit the atmosphere there, it was one of his former coaches who told me not to worry... that he had the strongest moral compass of any kid he'd ever known and would not make a bad decision. He was right.
In the meantime, good luck with all of this and good luck with the dance competitions.
Your memory is incorrect --- literally every first world intelligence community said Iraq had WMD. In fact he did, as we all know, as he used them on his own citizens.
The difference was that the other governments did not want to use force under any circumstances, especially the Russians & French as they both had very large oil deals with Saddam.
As I said, I wasn't sure who talked up the Euro/Cd models.
As far as stuffing data, do your own work! Until you cut me a check, I don't work for you.
Your info is strictly anecdotal, so I give it the weight it deserves. I have pretty good info/experience on the systems I alluded to, and they are worse than ours.
Why?
Because crap at a good price is still crap! I wil submit that any system that does not allow a person access to treatment when it is needed is, by definition, crap. Does it happen here (per your anecdotal story)? I'm sure it does, but it not systematic or institutional [yet!]
Our system is sterling at an awful price. Our politicians should be working on real solutions to get the price down, like:
>>inter-state insurance competition
>>real tort reform
>>ensuring all programs are used by those who are eligible
>>and perhaps by making insurance coverage mandatory (like auto insurance).
Doing this will get us down to the real number of uninsured, which would be the next problem to resolve.
Conscientious Observer, Naperville's not on the Money magazine list this year because this year the magazine focused on small towns. Every year they change their criteria and this year Naperville was just too big to be considered.
*10 million who earn more than $75K a year and don't want to pay.
*10 million mostly males between 18 to 25 who probably don't get sick anyhow since they are peak.
Of the remaining 20 million, many are eligible for existing govt programs and don't sign up.
Anyone walking into a hospital gets care, so everyone has medical care today.
Like the: global warming crisis, the medical crisis, the stimulus crisis, the stiff the bondholders of Unionized Companies crisis, the medical records crisis, the save Goldman by laundering money through AIG crisis, crisis, crisis etc etc etc.........The phrase that sums it up the best is "the bigger the lie the better".
..."During the years 1936-38, the National Socialist Party of Germany was seeking was whereby they might justify their military and social actions. Among other things, Adolph Hitler wanted possession of Czechoslovakia, Austria, and Poland; and he wanted to annihilate the Jewish race. Joseph Goebells was assigned the responsibility of accomplishing these tasks, and that of creating good "reasons" for doing so. It was then that Goebells adopted the phrase: Tell a Lie That is Big Enough, and Repeat it Often Enough, and the Whole World Will Believe It. He assumed the world would not be gullible enough to believe "little lies," but the bigger the lie, the more likely it is that people would eventually accept it as true. By the use of misinformation, negative propaganda, movies, and various dramatic presentations, the Nazi Minister of Propaganda was successful beyond the generation's realization. "...
Like 1930's Germany, the USA now has a goose-stepping-rubber-stamp-legislature that implements the will of the Leader.
The US Congress doesn't even pretend to be anything other than a rubber stamp, they don't even bother to read or debate sweeping legislation.
"A weapon of mass destruction (WMD) is a weapon that can kill large numbers of humans and/or cause great damage to man-made structures (e.g. buildings), natural structures (e.g. mountains), or the biosphere in general.
The term is often used to cover several weapon types, including nuclear, biological, chemical (NBC) and radiological weapons. Additional terms used in a military context include atomic, biological, and chemical warfare (ABC) and chemical, biological, radiological, and nuclear (CBRN) warfare.
The phrase was predominantly used in reference to nuclear weapons during the Cold War; following the collapse of the Soviet Union and increasing tensions between the Middle East and the Western powers, the term broadened to its modern, more inclusive definition. It entered widespread usage in relation to the U.S.-led 2003 invasion of Iraq."
Everyone knows Saddam had chemical WMDs at one point, he used them on the Kurds in the 1980s. And many of these old, DEGRADED weapons were found. However:
"According to then-President of the United States George W. Bush and the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of that time; Tony Blair, the reasons for the invasion were "to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction (WMD), to end Saddam Hussein's support for terrorism, and to free the Iraqi people."[16] According to Blair, the trigger was Iraq's failure to take a "final opportunity" to disarm itself of nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons that U.S. and coalition officials called an immediate and intolerable threat to world peace.[17] Although some remnants of pre-1991 production were found after the end of the war, U.S. government spokespeople confirmed that these were not the weapons for which the U.S. went to war.[18][19] In 2005, the Central Intelligence Agency released a report saying that no weapons of mass destruction had been found in Iraq.[20]"
Iraq, brutal Sunni dictatorship run by tribal leaders loyal to Saddam.
Afghanistan, already had their Islamic dictatorship run by Bin Ladin and his puppets. The Pashtoons (sp) in the south were the tribes allied with the Taliban and Bin Laden. These tribes are still loyal to the Taliban and Bin Laden in many cases. These tribes are also at war with the government of Pakistan and its other tribes and sects.
Don't be surprised if the Pakistani's next offensive into the Pashtoon areas starts the with total annihilation of a town and tribe via artillery to open the negotiations with the other tribes.
what the? on July 17, 2009 1:23 PM
According to then-President of the United States George W. Bush and the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of that time; Tony Blair, the reasons for the invasion were "to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction (WMD), to end Saddam Hussein's support for terrorism, and to free the Iraqi people."
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Hey What the?, Based on the blurb above from Wikipedia there were 3 reasons for invasion.
1. Disarm Iraq of WMD
2. End Saddam's support for terrorism
3. Free the iraqi People
So I guess we (U.S. / Bush and Blair) achieved 2 out of 3? I could really stretch this and try to make the case that all 3 goals were achieved, because there are currently no WMD in Iraq!! But given the fact they were never found in the first place I'll stick with 2 out of 3.
I don't care for the tone of some of the posters here, but one of the points made was that the embargo was not working and the UN had some dirty players involved. I believe these two issues also had an effect on Bush and why he believed the embargo would drag on for years without success.
Of course my experience was anecdotal. I SAID IT WAS. But it still disproves the most popular propaganda point of those opposed to having a government health care option in the U.S.--that refusal of care only happens in socialized medicine. It does not. Health insurance companies here in the U.S. refuse care all the time; that's how they stay profitable. And you can pull up all the studies you want indicating that socialized medicine is crap, but again, my brother is an American citizen who has lived in Germany for 20 years and he has had no problem with it. And since he has a lifetime of experience with both forms of health care, private and socialized, I think he's a pretty good judge. And I'm not talking about price, I'm talking about quality of care. But I do admit I can only refer to Germany, I have had no direct experience with other countries.
You stated that "any system that does not allow a person access to treatment when it is needed is, by definition, crap." Then by your definition, the U.S. health care system IS CRAP, because it happens here all the time. It happened to my mother just three months ago, that was the point of the story.
I think the U.S. does have sterling health care. BUT IF MILLIONS OF OUR CITIZENS CAN'T AFFORD IT, WHAT GOOD IS IT TO THEM?
Any if it's so easy to bring down the costs of health care, why hasn't it been done by now? Because the health care industry wants to maintain the status quo as a for profit system. The changes you suggested have never and will never be allowed by the health care industry. Cost controlling measures are a threat to profits. So is a government option, that's why they are lobbying against it so frantically. You guys make a lot of noise about the government controlling your choices, but big business has been doing it for years.
What I'm really interested in is what are you REALLY afraid of with a government option for people who can't afford mainstream health care? Is it the slippery slope of socialism that worries you? The mean-spirited belief of some conservatives--I've got mine, what others don't have isn't my problem? Even if the government option is crap, isn't it still better than nothing for many Americans? Isn't it still better than millions of uninsured showing up for expensive emergency treatment and health care companies passing those costs on to us in the form of higher premiums and copays? What is the harm in giving this a try?
I think denial of care in the U.S. has become systematic or institutional, we are already there. HMOs routinely do this, it's the best way to cut costs. And denial of care is not institutional in Germany, like opponents claim. You've got it backwards--there is a lot more denial of care in our private system based on inability to pay or other reasons than there is in Germany's system.
And to the Anon who said "Anyone walking into a hospital gets care, so everyone has medical care today."
Ack!!! Didn't some Republican senator say this about health care recently and got absolutely scorched for his ignorance? By law, Anon, hospitals have to provide EMERGENCY treatment to anyone, they can't let people die outside their doors because they can't pay. This is not the same as medical care. Not all medical care is an emergency, just acute, life-threatening conditions. A ruptured appendix or gun shot wound is considered an emergency, chemotherapy for a cancer patient is not. People can be refused medical care if it is not acutely life-threatening and they cannot show proof that they can pay for it. Most health care falls into the non-emergency category. Thus, many Americans don't have access to our sterling health care because they simply can't afford it.
And when they do finally get sick enough to get treatment at an emergency room, the cost is then astronomical. Acute care is extremely expensive, and hospitals can't afford to eat the costs and keep their doors open, so the costs for this treatment gets passed on to those of us who do have insurance in the form of higher premiums, copays and deductibles, in addition to rising medical costs overall. It's a vicious cycle with no end in sight.
Now you condemn an entire system based on small subsets of deviance? Hardly a useful stat. I would agree that your mother's experience as you described it sucked. Coulda been the group you were dealing with --- I don't know.
You mix affordability with access --- Don't, as they are two different things. Access is not the issue!
As I wrote more than once, our system is too expensive, but the care it provides is the best in the world.
Most of the remedies I mentioned earlier actually don't hit profits at all if they are all implemented, so your theory on a cabal of big businesses conspiring to screw all of us does not hold up.
As was written in the SUN earlier, change the tort system tomorrow by making the government the insurer of all medical malopractice policies ---voila! Instant decreases in overall costs.
Allow competition between states (this is the only one with a potential for definite profit issues to individual companies, but theoreticall little to none on the ehtire industry.
What is the real obstacle here? Trial lawyers and theer need to have access to class-action suits against doctors, drug companies, and hospitals.
There is nothing mean-spirited about having beliefs and thoughts, yet you (and your liberal bretheren) lack the tolerance and openmind required to accept that others have beliefs that also count.
You mention the "I have mine" argument, yet recent data shows the Liberals have more wealth than conservatives.
Now, we both agree that there needs to be something out there for the ten to fifteen million out there who really don't have any insurance OR a future potential to have it. I do not see the Kennedy plan as either a viable solution or a true "end means" answer. Any company that does not drop it's coverage for it's employees and turn to the "gov't option" for 8% of payroll would run the risk of being sued by shareholders (there's those crazy trial lawyers again!) for financial negligence.
All in all, I think both you and I see and acknowledge a problem exists ---- we disagree as to it's magnitude,how it should be fixed (my priority is on cost savings and following current code & laws first), and I certainly do NOT believe that just because the current system has issues of cost and availablity that ANY change will make it better.
*Denial of care argument, are there any metrics out there? I'm open to it.
I know someone who died of plaque in the arteries feeding their brain which would have been treating in the US. In Australia they told him there was no treatment. He only found out while visiting here, having a problem and ending up in one of our many fine hospitals. By the time he visited the US, 8 years had passed and the problem had become untreatable. He died about a year later from a stroke caused by the plaque.
* Of the 20 million that don't have coverage, and may need it, how many are eligible for existing programs and not signed up? Lets guess a number, 10 million who could be addressed through some kind of outreach program possibly run at emergency rooms where these people show up.
* That leaves 10 million (guess) as the actual existing problem, with the other 250 million people already covered under our existing system which is the best.
Like real life, if you have more money you can drive a Benz. Obama and the Democrats want to force everyone out of their Caddies, and Chevy's and into Yugos, everyone. Just because a very few currently have no car? Forgot, Obama and the Congress will be exempt from their health plan.
This is punishment, not a program to improve the situation. This is the contempt for the middle class that spewed out of Wright for 20 years while Obama sat there with his kids, listening.
IMHO the proposed medical plan is driven by envy, hate and class warfare, plain and simple. Not out of a desire to get everyone good insurance.
If the problem is escalating costs, the driver is law suits. Lets identify the causes of the suits and solve them.
If it will improve you hearing, every time Obama or one of his supporters uses the word "rich" substitute the word "Jews", same rhetoric, same contempt.
I understand what you are saying, but perhaps I was not clear enough in my earlier post --- I posted "...does not allow a person access to treatment when it is needed" (new bold for emphasis)
By access (or denial in many cases through organizations like NICE), I met either NO treatment, or in the case of cancers waiting 3 to 8 months for, say, radiation therapy. I'm sure the cancer is happy to wait for the treatment!
Of course, this all contributes greatly to the greater cancer survival rates in the U.S.
As posted earlier, cost is THE issue in our healthcare system.
If you ever want a real treat in futility, spend some time researching and trying to get a handle on the pricing system in the U.S. healthcare industry AND the reimbursement system particularly Medicare/Medicaid. Those two programs are primarliy responsible for the exhorbitant "list" pricing of all medical procedures in the U.S., and ironically the highest prices are charged to those who aren't covered and theoretical can't afford it!
As a final comment for now, just think about this: we already have a single payer healthcare system in the U.S. --- it is called Medicare. We can ALL see how efficient and effective that program is!
Like I said --- he had WMDs (as per your definition). So what is your point?
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Ok, I see you need more help.
The WMDs that were found were pre-1991 and degraded (meaning characterized by degeneration of structure and function; in other words, they had exceeded their shelf life). I'll repeat for the third time: these were not the weapons the U.S. went to war for. Everyone thought Saddam had current, functioning programs to develop chemical, biological, and most importantly, nuclear weapons. The only stuff found had been manufactured prior to the 1991 sanctions and embargo set in place after the Gulf War, so it looked like the sanctions had worked, after all. Saddam may have been planning to resume his WMD programs after the sanctions were lifted, but the sanctions outlived him. The U.S. and its allies did not engage in a costly war simply to confiscate a pile of expired chemical weapons. That's why in 2005, the Central Intelligence Agency released a report saying that no weapons of mass destruction had been found in Iraq.[20]"
To keep insisting otherwise just makes you sound simple.
How rude! I didn't say YOU were getting tedious, I said THIS is, the constant back and forth of not understanding each other. Honestly, some of the comments I see on this blog are so full of propaganda and misinformation I don't see how some of these folks get through the day.
Obama is not forcing any of you to do anything. If you like your Chevys, by all means keep them. He simply wants to make Yugos available to people who have no wheels so the rest of us don't have to keep giving them free rides. He is taking NOTHING away from you. But you are so afraid any change in the status quo MIGHT that you're beside yourselves.
My family is fortunate in that we have an excellent PPO. Nothing has ever been denied, we have great access to any care we want or need. But we pay a premium for it, and I understand that not all Americans can afford what we have. I've also seen that every year over the past 10 years, my premiums, copays and deductions get bigger while the benefits get smaller. And the cost the uninsured place on our health care system is one of the reasons.
I graduated 23 years ago with a degree in health care administration. In all this time, NOTHING has changed in our health care system. The problems we have today are the EXACT SAME PROBLEMS we discussed when I was in college. The only thing that has changed in health care over the years is the price. Everyone was concerned abut escalating costs THEN; I can only imagine what my profs would say about costs now.
Something has to change, people, and time is up. If there were any ways to control costs and improve access, it could have been done anytime in the last 23 years, but it has not. The problem is so multifaceted--the legal profession blocking tort reform, the AMA, the health care industry, the insurance companies, the pharmaceutical companies all blocking any kind of reform for fear that it will cut into their profits--and it might. But that is not reason enough not to try it.
I am for providing a government plan for those who would want it, and my biggest concern is not the fear mongering that has been brought up here but something that hasn't been touched upon. We like our health care program. What if the govern. option is so much better or cheaper that our employer decides to switch to it? I realize that it could happen, but I'm willing to take that chance. It beats doing nothing until the day when the price of care gets so exorbitant that not even we can afford it.
Ron Paul interview, touches on a lot of subjects, heath care is at the end. Worth a listen from the only honest person who ran from President last time, or only one who knew what they were talking about.
Shame on you, Thomas, you're baiting. You know the answer to your own comment.
The U.S. NEVER would have gone into Iraq on reasons 2 and 3 alone. Only #1 was seen as a threat to our national security, 2 and 3 were just icing. Thank you for not trying to stretch a justification for 3. The goal was to DISARM, you can't disarm what isn't there. You almost sounded like WMD Anon above!
It will be interesting if decades from now, a stash of weapons believed to have been Saddam's is discovered somewhere, like the ammo found on the Lusitania. It could happen.
In the meantime, it's good you're satisfied with 2 and 3, because that's what we got. But I wonder if the families of all the dead soldiers are as satisfied with that as well.
P.S. The two anons above are me, in case you didn't already know.
By Former WV Mom on July 17, 2009 9:45 AM
While you obviously hate tattoos, they have become a much more accepted form of expression in the last 10-15 years.
As I said, my daughter put a lot of thought into her tattoo, had valid reasons for wanting one, and got one that has strong personal beliefs behind it and is in an inconspicuous place. I believe as parents we need to pick our battles. Like I said, she discussed it with me in detail. My final word on it was that she was an adult and could make her own decision, but needed to think it through completely. In the end this was a decision with strong personal merit, not a tattoo that she wants to show off to others and not a spur of the moment decision.I think I will take my daughter's tiny inconspicuous religious tattoo......
It seems like you are against tattoos too but reluctantly accepted this inconspicous religious tattoo that can barely be seen....you seem very thrilled that it is very inconspicous. I would be too if I lost control.
You seem to believe that the decision should be made by the teenager and the hope will be that she will make the right decision.
Tattoos are permanent and most teenagers are immature and make many bad decisions while learning during the growing up process. Did you hear about that teenage girl in London who went to a tattoo parlor and got 53 stars on the left part of her face and later regretted it? Do you feel she should have been given the right to make such a stupid decision that she will surely regret for the rest of her life and have life time effects on her, her love life and her career? Parents have to be in control until their kids develop maturity and wisdom.
I can not tell you the number of girls I have met with tattoos of their former boyfriends on their breasts....yes former boyfriends that they "loved so much" and now broke up with. I have also seen pictures of former boyfriends and girl friends on shoulders and arms.
I do know a neighborhood kid who is attempting to remove the picture of his girl friend off his chest. He informs me he has been through over 35 laser treatments over 2 years at great cost to remove it. He seems like he successfully got it off but one chest is red and one chest is white now....and there is nothing the doctors can do to make them the same color again. It seems like they have to fry your body to get the ink out. How could anyone in this world accept ink to be inserted in the only body God gave them and they will ever have? There is no second chance for a new body like there is for a new car you total.
I don't think anyone should be allowed to get a tattoo until the age of 25. And they must be sober with a one week waiting period to ponder their decision.....just like those who go to buy a gun have a waiting period in most cases.
Are you telling me former WV Mom, that if you daughter made a decision to put 53 stars on the left side of her face you will allow her if she thought out her decision over time and discussed it with you? Are you telling me if she wants to put the picture or name of her boyfriend in an inconspicous place on her breast it would be OK with you? Why would you want to torture her next boyfriend with the picture of her former boyfriend on her breast?
Why not pressure your daughter into sanity as I try to do? Let us face it many times they think they know what they are doing but really don't know what they are doing. Most youngsters think their current lover is permanent. Permanence in those youth years means 3 months if they are lucky.
I think as parents we have a duty to protect our kids from themselves as much as we can and for as long as we can. I have an older child who now thanks me often for protecting her from her stupidity of those teenage years. She even wrote me a letter recently and told me she wanted to take care of me in my older years. I felt like I had succeeded....at least with this one child. A few more remain in the pipeline though.
Anyway, thanks for your advice. I really appreciate it. I am not sure it will work but I am willing to try anything. But without wheels the "love birds" are separated for now. We are going to try to spend as much time as possible in Myrtle Beach and hopefully Mother Time will heal all this "sick love for the loser of all losers."
Anonymous on July 18, 2009 12:53 AM
I can not tell you the number of girls I have met with tattoos of their former boyfriends on their breasts
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That sounds more of an indictment of the friends you keep or the places you frequent than the fact someone gets a tattoo. Also seems that you go to places other than the Tilted Kilt?
Here is where I have a problem with your responses. You tend to take things and then exaggerate them to the extreme.
For example: Your first line at the start "If you have teenagers who want to bring a large group of kids over to your home or even basement, do not allow them." and then going on to say that things will get stolen if people do have groups of teens in their homes.
Me getting to know the kids that come to my house all of a sudden means that I can magically determine honesty. Something I never claimed, yet you took to the extreme.
Me accepting my daughter's tiny tattoo means I would accept a bunch of stars on her face. Again, something I never said, but you took to the extreme. The teenagers you gave as examples of poor tattoo decisions I am sure did not put 6 months of thought into those decisions.
As I stated, my daughter spent 6 months thinking about it and discussing it with me. I am not against tattoos in general, just not crazy about ones that tend to be very prominent, or tend to be spur of a moment decision. My daughter put a lot of thought into this and discussed those thoughts with me. In the end, she was an adult and yes, after all of that, it was her decision to make. There was no "Stupidity" in her decision. She has always acted quite mature, has always thought things through, and has earned the right to make those decisions. She has a history of making good decisions. Decisions that she does not regret later. Again, she had no desire to have something that was prominent and would be something for everyone else to see. It was something that she wanted for her. She was starting college, knew that she would be meeting a lot of people, and knew that there could be situations that could come up where she might have to deal with elements of peer pressure. She knew that she would not have her WV Young LIfe people at school with her on a daily basis any more. The tattoo was something to remind her of the decisions she wanted to continue making. She was worried about her randomly assigned roommate, because from Facebook, they seemed to have entirely different ideas of what a fun social life was. And it did start out that way. But the interesting thing is that roommate stopped her partying about a month into the school year and started spending more and more time with my daughter on the weekends. Again, my daughter was able to influence someone to become a better person. That roommate saw how happy my daughter was on a daily basis and wanted to know why and started to getting involved in the things my daughter was involved in.
So why not "pressure my daughter into sanity" as you state. First of all, her tattoo was not an act of insanity, she was quite sane and rational about it. I have absolutely no issues with it at all. It's not my personal thing and not something I want on myself, but as I said before, she put a ton of thought into it. It is not something that she will look at years from now and wish she didn't have. Second, it has absolutely no impact on our family and how we treat each other and especially how she treats us. She is an amazing young woman, who respects her parents, respects the others around her, has a heart for people less fortunate than her, and seems to have a huge impact on the people who get to know her. Third, it will have no impact on her future prospects since it is not in a place anyone would see without her pointing it out. It was not something she did to follow the crowd, show off, or be "cool," which is why a lot of teens do get tattoos.
In our home, we have always discussed things, maybe even to the extreme. We have raised our kids to consider things carefully and logically, from when they were little and the taking a toy from someone else situations, to the adolescent years with examples of bad decisions teens have made that end up in the newspaper. The decisions they have made have been good ones. We have not had to ever "pressure" our kids to make decisions we felt were in their best interests. They have made good decisions themselves. And yes in this case my daughter's tattoo does fall in the area of a good decision. We do not try to control our kids and their decisions. Instead we have all along taught them the skills and helped them consider the information so that they could make thought out, informed decisions, ones that they will not regret in the long run. We have raised two kids who have become incredible young adults, who made the high school and teen years a joy in our home. And I am asked all the time by friends with younger children how we parented our kids so that they can have the same pleasant experiences we have had when their kids hit high school.
Again, my advice would be instead of "pressuring your child" you should question her and have her vocalize why she is making certain decisions. While it is probably too late to make a huge impact, since it is not inherent in her nature at this point, maybe it would at least get her thinking about why she makes certain choices, the results of those, and how she got to that point.
All along I have been trying to be a counterpoint to your initial statement that people should not allow groups of teens to hang out in their homes. All along I have been attempting to show that there is a way to handle things with your teens that may make the teen years be a pleasant even joyful experience. That there are many of us out there that have not had the same experiences that you have had. I NEVER stated that my experiences were the only things out there. I NEVER stated that your experiences were not possible. I stated at the beginning that I believed the issues you were having with theft in your home were related to the choices your teen was making in friends. I believe your last few posts have proved my point all along.
I hope that what other people on this blog (who may have read and followed our exchanges) will take from this discussion is that you can raise your kids in such a way that will minimize the issues you will have when they are teens. That there is a point where you need to allow your teens to make their own decisions, and if you have put the work in when they are younger, those decisions will be well thought out ones. That you don't necessarily need to entirely agree with every decision they make if they have thought it through and it is not something that impacts your family dynamic negatively. I hope that others will realize that by taking an interest in the teens your kids hang out with, by talking to them when they are in your home, showing that you value them as people, you may be able to have the same experiences that we have had.
In Borders last night, I was able to look through the entire copy of Parenting Teens with Love and Logic. I was amazed that so much of what we have done in our home does seem to follow the guidelines in that series. (I'll have to thank my friend who mentioned that parenting series when I saw her earlier this week. I will be recommending it to friends who ask me about how my teens turned out so good in the future.) I looked through the other books in the series a little bit. I would suggest to others out there, who may be looking for some tips, to try and investigate these and see if it is something that might work for them.
Never claimed my teens/young adults were perfect. But the decisions they have made have been thought out and decisions that they made, not ones we made for them. And most of the time, they have been the ones we wanted them to make. Neither has done things that they will regret at any time in the future.
At 6:30 this morning a convoy of idiots drove through my neighborhood honking their horns like mad. They drove back through about noon, blowing them again. This time I got to see them and they were mostly vans and cars, a lot of them with green balloons on them or green words painted on the windows. It's unlikely any of them will read this, but in case they do, it's really ignorant to drive down residential roads blaring your horns when most people are sleeping. I'm sure you're excited about whatever event you're going to, but keep it to yourselves. Unless they captured bin Laden, I don't want to hear it, and even if they did I could wait until I was awake.
The following was part of the written articles for the invasion of Iraq that were presented to the Senate for their 77 to 23 vote to invade. Please note the liberal use of the words chemical and biological, and the reference to nukes.
"The Bush administration and its supporters in Congress say Saddam has kept a stockpile of chemical and biological weapons in violation of U.N. resolutions and has continued efforts to develop nuclear weapons."
I will also add, for historical reasons only, that we all need to remember that there were many more than 3 reasons written/stated for the invasion (I think it was 23 in total, but I really can't recall the exact number). We all fixate on only one, nukes, because the media put all of their reporting on that aspect and, consequentially, the administration put an inordinant (though not all) amount of P.R. inot the same aspect.
My bad on the tedious comment-- I take it back (as I really do enjoy the sport of arguing!)
For the record, I am not the Anon who refers to conspiracies, chevys, etc., per your post.
As I posted a little earlier, we both see a problem, I just don't see the current solutions offered by Kennedy (via Obama) as addressing the real issues or having a prayers chance of success. You are obviously more optimistic than I am.
Simply put, the U.S. goverment has proven it is incapable of developing and administering a national healthcare process (see Medicare for the example of failure).
The "shining examples" everyone always point to (ie Euro, Canada) really aren't shining at all, they are just "free" in that citizens pay taxes based on their theoretical ability to do so and use the services based on theoretical need (sound familiar? it should ----- it is right from the writings of Marx).
The greatest innovations, and applications of inovations, in the healthcare world occur here in the U.S {note I did not say, or mean, all, and that I included "application" as the absence of technolgy and schooling to result in applying the innovations to a mass audience makes them tragically less so).
Having said that, do we really know what the problem is? Has it been defined? I believe it has not.
Our politicians know there is a problem (or series of them) and their first and last response is a government program funded by taxpayers to create another voting class.
NOTHING that has been presented affects the overall cost of healthcare itself! The B.S. about saving on admin costs through computers is hogwash and has been debunked by, of all places, Oh Canada!
That leaves us with basically two remaining ways to affect overall cost:
1)Not allow or cover certain procedures, and 2)Just pass laws to tell providers of goods and services what they can charge.
I will note here that neither of these two sounds very American, or ethical, or within the overall intent of our constitution.
The first has a bias against the very sick (and, using data and stats, the very old), and we already have valid experience with the second, price controls, and their lack of effectiveness.
Then, of course, we need to ask the question "Is there really a problem of uninsured people?"
I would say that there is a problem here, but that we do not know the extent of the problem. We keep reading of a 45 million person problem so let's use that.
We know from publicly available data that over 10 million of them voluntarily choose to be uninsured even though they can afford it (ie make more than $75,000 a year). Fix that by making insurance coverage the law!
We know that approximatley 14 million uninsured currently qualify for governement-sponsored coverage but have failed to merely sign up for it (hey! How about a program to educate people that it is there? I also suspect making insurance the law would help here).
We know there are between 7 million and 10 million illegal immigrants in America that are uninsured.
We also know that approximatley 70% of the remaining uninsured are bouncing between jobs and are uninsured for an average of 4 months (COBRA, anyone?)
This means that the truly, institutionally uninsured sits at around 12 million people including illegal immigrants.
I will close by addressing you comment of those who oppose the Kennedy/Obama plan are afraid of any change in the status quo --- speaking for myself, I must say "Oh contrar!"
The status quo is for politicians to solve our "problems" with solutions that do not apply to them AND which gain them a new voting class ---- the Kennedy-Obama program fits this to a "T".
I am strongly against this status quo and would like, for once, to see politicians really act non-partisan, define and solve a problem where the solution applies to them and all their union voting class, and let us all see it with pure transparency.
Transparency to me means no addendums, no last minute changes, no 1000 page bills, and NO ONE SIGNS IT UNTIL THEY SIGN A STATEMENT SAYING THEY READ IT!!!!
Simply put, not all change is good change, and any change needs to be thought through to address a well-defined problem and NOT to gain voters for the future.
"The Bush administration and its supporters in Congress say Saddam has kept a stockpile of chemical and biological weapons in violation of U.N. resolutions and has continued efforts to develop nuclear weapons."
Ok. This is the same as my understanding.
Let me guess--are you focusing on the two words "HAS KEPT a stockpile of chemical and biological weapons"? Are you seriously trying to make a case that the #1 reason for invading Iraq in fact existed because a pile of EXPIRED chemical weapons, manufactured in the 1980s, were found? No biological weapons, no nukes, not even chemical weapons that could actually be used, just some old stuff piled in with some ammo? You actually believe THIS was worth thousands of our children's lives?
You can try to spin this anyway you want, but all it sounds like is Clinton's pathetic "it depends on what your definition of 'is' is." If you support this theory, then conversely, you would have to support the theory that the U.S. would have invaded Iraq even if they had known that pre-1991 degraded chemical weapons were the only weapons Saddam had, and only a fool would claim that.
The CIAs report is what history will judge by, and that report definitively states that the weapons found were NOT what the U.S. went to war for, and NO WMDs were found in Iraq. Like it or not, that's what stands.
What really makes me sad in these types of arguments is what is always overlooked by those claiming the Iraq invasion was indeed worth it--the sacrifice of so many young lives, U.S. and otherwise. Is their value so low that our government would have knowingly sent them into Iraq to die for so little if they had known that's all there was? Maybe you would, but I seriously doubt Congress would have, and I even think Bush himself would have had a hard time justifying it. And yet here you are, still trying to defend the action and rationalize a failure.
So what if there were up to 23 justifications listed for invading Iraq? The more icing the better! But the WMDs were the cake, the primary basis for the war, and it fell flat. That's what history will record.
Chris, what you heard was the same thing I heard and saw while walking my dog at Burning Tree and Royal St. George. That caravan was parents driving their pre-teen children to a swimming competition. The parents also wrote on their driveways I noted on West St. such things as "GO Cody" or "Swim Fast Colt". They wrote similar things on the windows of their mini vans and SUV's. You see, these are parents encouraging their children to be competitive and pervail against their swimming rivals. All of this is tradition in places like New Jersey, the capital for rude and ignorant jerks. They are teaching them to be as rude, incondsiderate and as obnoxious as they are. And F you they will shout back or flip you off if you complain to them or are bothered by them disturbing the peace at 0645hrs as they did in my neighorhood today and other days. All will acknowledge and respect their children. The beauty is they grow up to be the little obnoxious teenagers WV mom writes about who will steal from each other. Karma IS a bitch.
Yeah Glock, that's the area I'm talking about. I don't care if they write on their driveways but the honking is really obnoxious. Even the honking on the way back around noon was annoying. I thought there was a law against honking for no reason, but maybe not. Just because they are up at 6:30 doesn't mean the rest of us are. Some of us work second shift or want to sleep in on the weekends.
So I was driving with my husband & 3 little ones approaching the intersection of Washington & Ogden today. I was greeted with an onslaught of anti-abortion activists holding signs showing bloody remains of a local abortion, clearly distinguishable were arms, legs, head... I fully support both sides of the debate's right to voice their opinion. However when it infringes on the best interests of MY CHILDREN I feel I also have the right to say so.
I understand their goal is shock. Got it. But it's inappropriate to do that in an area which is readily visible to small children. I spoke to a gentlemen about how I thought it was inappropriate to show these photos & that my 3 year old was horrified by what she saw, particularly because we have a new baby. What was his response? "Go to hell, lady."
REALLY. You stand there holding this sign under the auspice that what it depicts is against God's will & at the mere mention of disapproval your first response is, "Go to hell??"
At least understand what it is you're fighting for, sir.
Hey let's be careful... I am not the one writing about obnoxious kids. That would be the Anonymous that I am corresponding with! She actually has been complaining about Naperville North and Central kids I believe. The area you are talking about would be Naperville North students, not WV.
I agree with both of you that the early morning, before the competition honking is stupid. The noon one, if the kids were successful and celebrating I can accept a little better. At ;least that should not be disturbing most people's sleep!
We are having a good debate because we disagree with each other on many points and not because we agree. If we agreed there would be no need to debate.
I respect your feelings. I think the difference between you and me is I have ZERO TOLERANCE for certain things my kids want to engage in.
1. I have no tolerance for my kids smoking no matter how old they are. Smoking is stupid and I am not going to let them smoke under any circumstance no matter how informed a decision they made and how well thought out it was or how many hours they discussed it with me. If you call this extreme, be my guest.
2. I am not going to let my kids drink alcohol till they are 21. It is against the law and I have no tolerance in allowing them to break the law that is there to protect them.
3. I don't think you or your daughter are evil or bad people because you permitted her to get a tattoo on the bottom of her foot in an inconspicous place. That is your choice. You seem very emotional about a small tattoo on the foot of your daughter and even very defensive about it. This seems to be that if she chose to get a tattoo on her face even after giving it a lot of thought, you would put a stop to it and succeed. I suspect if you had to smack her a few times, you would smack her to avoid 53 stars on her face. If you are unwilling to smack her a few times, I suspect your husband or her sibliing would.
4. I created my kids with my genetic chromosomes. I think all my kids are beautiful creations. A lot of work was put into creating them and rasing them. I am not going to let them destroy what took 19 years and 9 months to build with a distasteful tattoo or any tattoo that they will most certainly regret later in their lives and most probably blame me for, for not having been stricter.
5. My kids have known from DAY ONE, if they get a tattoo, they are out of my house and they will never receieve a penny from me for anything including college or car expenses. While I never said this to them, I suspect they know I will even disinherit them, too. So there are lines in the sand that they will not dare cross. Thankfully!
6. I don't think a book can teach you how to raise a kid. If that was the case, we would all read this book and have perfect kids. It ain't so easy Former WV Mom. You seem to have been blessed with 2 special kids that came out of a mold instead of a womb. Most of us have been blessed with works of art that we have to develop over 25 years.
7. My Dad, like Michael Jackson's Dad used the belt on me to raise me when necessary. I hated him at the time but I love him now for keeping me straight. He saw me looking at a cigarette once at age 8 and forced me to smoke it. I coughed and choked like hell and never smoked a cigarette again in my life. I am grateful for that. I bet every smoker who is trying to quit wishes they had a strict Dad like mine. I bet every Stage 4 lung cancer patient dying in a hospital from cigs wishes their Dad took out the belt when they caught them with that first cigarette.
8. The only reason I don't use the belt here in Naperville against my daughter and her boyfriend is that it is illegal and I am a law abiding citizen. I read about how the former Fire Chief of Naperville punched his kid in the chest and was charged by the Naperville Police. And shortly thereafter he was forced to resign or teminated even though his performance was superb. If he can't get away with it, then I know I can't. I am not willing to go to jail for my daughter or her boyfriend so I have to use everything legally in my power to my advantage.
9. Her boyfrend challenged me to hit him no less than a dozen times. Even though I am twice his size and three times his strength, I controlled myself. I knew what he was up to as he successfully got his Dad to hit him twice. His Dad was arrested, jailed and charged with a felony or felonies.
10. I have tried talking to my daughter in many of the ways YOU describe. It did not work. She claims she can not help she "loves" him. But she has not seen him for 3 weeks and hopefully after Mytle Beach it will be 5 weeks and MOTHER TIME will have destroyed this unhealthy relationship.
I have a lot of respect for you, Former WV Mom. I do not consider myelf to be an extremist. I am just trying to raise my kids properly. I don't want them to join the millions in U.S. Jails. These kids start as disobedient and than disobebience becomes something much worse. Your kids apparently don't need as much "tough love" as other kids. What you fail to realize is not all kids are born the same with the same genes and same mentality.
If anyone is EXTREME, I believe you are as you believe there is a secret formula that works for all kids equally. Your hidden message is "you simply don't know how to raise your kids but I know how to raise mine."
I am simply dealing with rebellion which is common amongst teenagers. I expected rebellion but I did not think it would be this ferocious. I still have 2 other kids in the pipeline that did not make the teenage years yet. They are currently angels. Will they remain angels? I am hoping but I doubt it.
At some point peer pressure becomes greater than parental pressure and this is what seems to lead to rebellion. It is not easy to go through this rebellious process. One has already graduated from it and one could not ask for a better kid. One is in midst of it and one could not ask for a worse child. The verdict is out on the last 2 as they approach those rebellious years influenced by massive peer pressure.
Anyway, I don't understand why I angered you telling my story. You did not anger me telling me your story. I enjoyed hearing it. When I talking about all those in my opinion "dumb" people putting tattoos on their breasts, face, shoulders and arms of X's, I was not talking about your daughter or you. So I don't know why you took it personal.
If your letter will be your last letter that is fine. All debates do end at some point and need to end. There should no hostilitly at the end of a debate. One should feel enlightened and richer. I feel enlightened and richer thanks to you.
If you don't feel the same, all I can say is I am very sorry.
What the, I would suggest you either find a non-inflammatory way to say it or you just drop the line of discussion if you feel like you're beating your head against a wall.
Keyboard Rambo, I definitely understand I'll be asking for trouble with an abortion thread, but it is a worthy discussion topic when they bring something like this protest to Naperville.
Again... blowing things way out of proportion. I was not in the slightest bit angry when I posted, just felt I had said everything I needed to say and was tired of having to correct your misassumptions. But you obviously are angry. My kids don't drink (even the 21 year old still doesn't), don't smoke, have never gotten a ticket, never been arrested, because they have been educated to make the right choices and they are making their choices. Choices are not forced upon them through threats. They feel you should not do things that are illegal. The 21 year old has decided to continue as a non drinking person because what he has seen at college is utter stupidity when people there drink. And both of them are disgusted by the mere smell of smoke. Again, they have not been threatened into any decisions. They have been educated to make the right decisions. I have kids who happen to be educated enough that they have proven themselves immune to peer pressure.
In my family, no one has ever been hit or spanked as a punishment, although you insinuate that through this statement "I suspect if you had to smack her a few times, you would smack her to avoid 53 stars on her face. If you are unwilling to smack her a few times, I suspect your husband or her sibling would." Which is the only reason I am responding now. So yes, I am angry now. Because your comments are inflammatory, uncalled for, and just plain nasty.
I do believe in your last post you just may have proven why your kids have chosen to get in power struggles and rebel with you. You want control. The problem is you won't always have it. And can't always have it.
My guess others on this blog at this point also get it.
Hello Naperville!!! We lived in naperville for 12 years, then relocated to the west coast. We relocated just as all the controversy on the new HS in district 204 was starting up. We loved Naperville and I'm curious has the new HS opened and is everyone happy again???
I think if all esle fails and your kid at age 15 wants to get 53 tattoo stars on their face, they deserve a smacking. I think you are angry because you think I am talking about you and your kids. I am not talking about them. I am being general.
Some girl in London who was 15 actually went to a tattoo parlor and got 53 tattoo stars on the left side of her face. She was on all the news stations. If my daughter had an appointment to get 53 stars at a tattoo parlor I would smack her and even visit the tattoo parlor and threaten them with a lawsuit if they dared put 53 tattoos on my daughters face.
While you think I am odd, I bet you 99% of the families in this town would not let their kids get 53 tattoos on their left faces no matter how much they thought about it or how much they consulted with them.
I think you are a bit odd letting your kids have the freedom to make decisions at such a young age. It is good to trust kids at a young age but you can not give them unlimited trust. Kids do stupid things. They get DUI's and get into car accidents. They forget to put their seat belts on. They forget to lock the house when they leave sometimes. They are not born mature and need to time to mature and learn.
I think you need to be in the face of your kids until they get it together. Again, I am not talking about your kids who came out of a perfect mold instead of a natural womb. Like I said you are a very lucky lady to have such good kids with such great judgement. I believe your family is the exception while mine is more the norm.
I have spanked my kids when they were under 12 and not respecting their time-outs. I have no regrets about spanking them. If I did not they would be much worse today.
Am I controlling. Yes, I am but only till they prove they can handle the real world and make good decisions. My oldest is on her own, does not live at home, and I don't control her life while she goes through graduate school even though I am mostly her only means of support. I don't want to control anyone. I simply want them to grow up responsible and make it to 25. I do not want to bury my kids. I want them to bury me. No parent should ever have to bury their child.
I am not blowing anything out of proportion. I am saying things as they are in my family. My generalizations are about people in general and not you even though I am kind of writing to you. This is a public forum so I assume others are reading our exchange and at some point may have some input one way or another that could be beneficial to you or me or both of us.
I have said you are a nice lady. I have said I trust everything you are saying. I thanked you for your advice. And all you have to say is my comments are "just plain nasty." Do you actually read what I write before you respond, Former WV Mom?
My last comment of my previous post was, "If you don't feel the same, all I can say is I am very sorry."
I have been very courteous to you. I have been very polite to you. It is all in black and white. And you have the audacity to say I am "just plain nasty." Why? Because I don't believe any child should have the right to get 53 star tattoos on the left side of her face.
It sounds to me you can easily get upset at anyone who disagrees with you. If you don't like debating with those who disagree with you, this may not be the best forum in the world for you. Maybe you need to try a new forum where everyone agrees with everyone else. I bet you would love that kind of forum and you would be happy instead of angry.
The insinuation that anyone in my house would hit another person is what I found offensive and nasty. It was what you said not you personally.
We have rules in our home. Our kids understand them. They are the rules that make our family function well. They are not arbitrary. There are reasons behind them that are thought out and understood. As our kids have gotten older, they have proven their good decision making. We taught them how to make good decisions. And if they made a bad one, they knew that they would have to solve the issues that would arise from them. I did not solve my kids problems for them, although I would get them thinking about them. My kids have proven time and time again that they can make good decisions. When they've made a bad one (which is never over the big things) they have suffered the consequences and been able to find their way out and solve the issue. Every bit of freedom or element of control over themselves that they have been given, has been freedom and control they have earned.
Did I ever say that anything goes in our home? No. I stated in the very beginning that we had rules and our kids followed them. Had my daughter wanted a huge tattoo that would have impacted her life in a negative way, we would have said no. And the thing is, because we would have given her the chance to at least state her case, discussed every aspect of the decision, she would have been satisfied. (But the thing is, she never would have wanted that. We knew that about her. Which is why this was an area where we could allow her to make a decision.) My kids have not rebelled in the big huge ways because they are not fighting for control. There have always been areas where they had control, and as they got older and proved that they could make the right decisions, they were given more aspects of control. They have no need to rebel because they feel they have a say in things.
Any parenting expert will tell you that a huge reason behind rebellion is that parents have tried to control their kids' entire lives and not allowed their kids to learn to make decisions. The kids who go to college and go wild there tend to often be the ones who were not allowed any chance to make their own decisions earlier. The kids who succumb to peer pressure have not been given the tools to stand up to it. We gave our kids the tools and the information so that they could do that. Kids want an element of control, and can earn it. If they feel they are listened to, valued, and yes have some control within guidelines that have been established, the chance of rebellion is far reduced. Getting in their face is going to push them to rebel in some way. Maybe not in the precise way that you are getting in their face about, but they'll find a way.
One example of allowing a little control and freedom to make decisions: Our kids no longer have a curfew since they are in college. They let us know where they are going, what they are doing, who they are with, and the time they will be home. They set the time based on the activity. They are never late. And often are home earlier than they stated. They do understand that if they are late, I will worry, and they don't want me to worry. They also know there will be a consequence for making me worry. But because they are setting that time, why would they ever be late? It was their decision. (By the way, the only time they choose a time after midnight is if they go to the midnight release of a new movie.)
I do not ever feel it is right to hit a kid. Ever. Do I believe kids need discipline, rules and guidelines? Yes. But if the rules are clear, valid, and understood, not arbitrary, and the consequences are clear, suitable for the infraction, and discussed, an they feel informed and involved in some of that, they tend to be more likely to follow them. (Kicking someone out of the home for any of the things mentioned is not a suitable or reasonable punishment.)
My kids have two entirely different personalities, yet they are both mature, and make good decisions. What we have done has worked for them, for two different people. We do not discipline with threats or physical force. There is no struggle for power in this house. They do know who is in charge, my husband and I, and also know that they are allowed to make certain decisions. It was a lot of work when they were younger, but that work was far worth it in the end.
At this point, what you have done has not seemed to work. You have had two go through rebellions that have made elements of your home life tough to deal with. While I will agree that often kids eventually come out of it and end up ok in the long run, I would hope at this point you might try something different with the younger kids so that you don't have to go through it again.
Judging by the tone of your respone you either cannot read or you enjoy distorting the views of others.
Your anger is palpable, it belies your attempts at anything even approaching a fair and open-minded debate, and your intolerant mind is not only incapable of accepting that others have views but it results in your inabilty to accomplish even the most remote analysis of the views of others, thus leaving you uninformed.
Your attempts to put words to my "pen" are pathetic. My post was not an attempt to parse the meaning of words, but to point out that the issue was not exclusively one of nukes, The expiration, or "had been", nature was clearly not the point.
Let me be clear: In 2002,the U.S. governement, along with every single other first world governement in the world, believed that Saddam had WMDs. At that time the official U.S. government position was one of regime change in Iraq that was officially established in 1998, I believe, by by Presient Bill Clinton.
[Note here that YOU attempted to redefine WMDs as ONLY applying to nukes, which is a factually inferior stance.]
Also note that the official articles of war, if you were, included what I believe were 23 issues of cause (the main one being the 12 year failure by Iraq to comply with U.N. resolutions, the most important of which referred to the development and maintenance (two freakingly key words) of WMDs.
History is clear: by the time we invaded, there were no nukes. There is no argument on that. However, this does not diminish the worldwide belief, and Saddam's consistent and constant statements, that he did in fact have them.
To summarize:
> the U.S. had an existing policy of regime change in Iraq,
> the entire world believed Iraq had WMDs (which he did since he used them!),
> the entire world believed he either had, or was diligently working on, nukes as part of his WMD arsenal,
> Saddam regularly warned the world of his growing power and willingness to use WMDs
> Iraq was in gross violation of several U.N. resolutions (a 12 year gap)
> Iraq was still attacking other countries, specifically the U.S., whenever a plane or chopper was evident in what he believed was his airspace (despite the U.N. resolutions he had agreed to)
> Bush described Iraq as a "gathering threat" to the U.S. and other free countries
> The U.S. finally invaded Iraq with the full non-partisan aproval of the Congress, had a magnificent 3 weeks, then proceeded to screw everything up for the next 4.5 years.
To your final point:
I fully believe that Bush would NOT have invaded (in that manner, anyway, meaning without a full U.N. commitment), if the world knew then what they know now --- nukes were most likely a sham by Saddam.
Anyone who knows of his leadership in Texas and his campaign goals, nation-building was definitely not in his wheelhouse. I would submit that the attacks on 9-11 quickly changed his wheelhouse.
I would add here that you undermine the efforts of our military by describing it as a failure ---- that description was re-written with the surge and we now have a fragile, yet free, Iraq.
As for me, Yes, I believe that given what was allegedly known at the time, the invasion was merited and should have been done 6 months earlier.
I believe we screwed up almost everything after the initial 3 weeks.
I believe that the entire Iraq war was turned into a partisan tug-of-war by our politicians who showed they had little regard for the world, our country, or our soldiers (at times).
I saw no "lies" then or now in after-thought. I did see mistakes by the world's intelligence agencies, ours included.
I believe this because a nation should only undertake war, and risk the lives of not only our youths but our entire military and support regardless of age, when it is within national policy and is understood as a threat either directly or indirectly to our sovereignity [i.e. either a gathering or imminent threat]. I do not need the rest of the world to agree.
The tragedy of those who argue that war is never the answer (sometimes with the exception of only when we we are invaded) is that once invaded, it is too late to keep overall casualties down. Also, those who argue this view tend to ignore the meaning of invasion. Heck, our current administration refuses to call terrorists "terrorists"!
I guess what you are saying is that if your daughter wanted to go to the tattoo parlor to get 53 stars inked into her left cheek, you will say NO, and she knows NO means NO.
I think we need to try to get you to stop talking about your kids because by now we all understand your kids came out of a well designed disciplined mold and not a womb.
Please try to answer some questions regarding normal kids who may not listen so easily.
1. What do you do when a kid insists on going to the tattoo parlor to get an ugly tatto on his neck or her breast if talking is not working?
2. How do you stop him and/or her from going to the tattoo parlor?
3. Peer pressure causes kids to rebel against their parents and want to be cool like everyone else. Being cool these days means tattooing your body and piercing your tongue, lips, and eyebrows. How do you convince kids(not your kids who are near perfect and listen) to cease and desist from their irrational behavior? Please advise.
4. I think rebellion is part of the maturing process. I think kids need to do stupid things and learn from their mistakes. But without controls they will do stupider things and hurt or kill themselves. They will do irreversible things. How can you prevent kids from doing stupid and irreversible things and yet have them blossom into mature young adults one day?
5. Not all kids are ready to leave home and go away to college. All think they are. We let the mature one go but held back the immature one and sent her to DuPage where we could monitor her more easily until she showed some more maturity. You seem to think that there is a cookie cutter that works for all kids equally. Can you explain this cookie cutter to us? Do you really think all kids think alike and one formula works for all? I wish it was so easy, former WV Mom.
I am glad you are no longer angry and understand a debate is meant for enlightenment and not anger.
I know you don't believe in spanking or belting. Michael Jackson does not either. Without his belting, I doubt he would have been the greatest entertainer of all times. Ironically, his brothers and cousins have admitted they were belted too, by Father and Uncle Joe, but they feel they are better people due to the belting. I was belted myself and feel I am a better person for the beltings....yes, more than once. I have heard reports that Tiger Woods was also belted and spanked when he had temper tantrums and refused to practice golf at age 4 and 5 as his Dad demanded. I bet he dose not hate his Dad. He is worth hundreds of millions because his Dad pushed him a little harder than other Dads pushed their kids. When his Dad died, he had nothing but nice things to say about him. The only person who has never gotten over his belting is Michael Jackon. I am sure we can all agree that even though he was a great entertainer, he was a bit unusual. His siblings that were all belted seem to be doing just fine. Janet and Jermaine Jackson have become quite impressive adults and show so much maturity and wisdom despite the belt beatings of 50 years ago.
Maybe if kids could be belted at a young age, they would behave themselves when they get older. Maybe, if they were belted our police department would not have to be put through hell of raising our kids since we are not allowed to raise them the way our parents raised us.
I would like to see the City Council pass a resolution apologizing to the Fire Chief for charging him due to punching his 18 year old son in the chest for being disobedient followed by another resolution that would make spanking and belting legal in the City of Naperville.
PS. Please understand I am not saying your kids need to be belted. I am not saying all kids need to be belted. I am saying some kids need a good belting. So don't take this personal or an attack on your family. If you do want to respond, it would be great if you could try to leave your family out of it.....just for ONCE. You kids are great kids and there is nothing more we need to learn about them.
Gee Anonymous, it seems that if you could get those 5 questions answered, you yourself (and apparently your own kids) would have a much better home life?
What ever credibility the Sybil blogger might have had with anyone must surely be gone now - as publicly stating that the believe in child abuse. "I am saying some kids need a good belting."
Fed up,
I'd agree with you if the idea of credibility even entered into the discussion. The problem with that is that we know that the Sybil blogger will say almost anything, particularly if it gets a rise out of someone, as it has in this case.
Think of it this way, as I have been doing - for someone who is utterly terrified of anyone figuring out his/her/their actually identities... he's now given us enough information to actually do so, if anyone had the energy or desire to try. That leas me to the idea that it is utterly made up - no dance team or anything like that in sybil's family, just made up. Again. To try and create controversy, and to somehow make blog posts more... what? Interesting? Controversial?
What did this person have for an English? And certainly were are the proof readers for this piece before it goes public?
"one the one hand there seem to be obvious advantages to being taught be experienced,"
Should be "on the one hand" and "by experienced" !!!!!
________________________________________
Anon, you are seriously taking issue with this article? Your grammer criticism begins with the following two statements. "What did this person have for an English? (sic), then your next sentence says, "And certainly were (sic)are the proofreaders?
So in your criticism of the Sun's grammer you make two errors yourself. If you actually read the link you supply it clearly says the following disclaimer before and after the article: "The views expressed in these blog posts are those of the author and not of the Sun-Times News Group." The Sun was simply printing another persons view, not their own. jeesh! The link you provided was a BLOG post, NOT an article written by the Sun!
Now whose anger is palpable? It's about time you got riled up about this. It's pissed me off for years.
What you call "an intolerant mind incapable of accepting that others have views" is actually just an opinion different from yours that is not easily manipulated. And when it comes to this subject, I've seen a lot of manipulation and reinterpretations of past events in what seems an attempt to rewrite the travesty of the Iraq war into something more palatable.
I first have to give you credit for some comments I rarely see from anyone defending the war:
"The U.S. finally invaded Iraq with the full non-partisan approval of the Congress, had a magnificent 3 weeks, THEN PROCEEDED TO SCREW EVERYTHING UP FOR THE NEXT 4.5 YEARS" (It was no doubt unintentional, but this cracked me up), and
"I believe we screwed up almost everything after the initial 3 weeks" and
"I believe that the entire Iraq war was turned into a partisan tug-of-war by our politicians who showed they had little regard for the world, our country, or our soldiers (at times).
I completely agree, but I rarely get these admissions from anyone defending the action in Iraq. Most refuse to acknowledge any errors in judgment, as if doing so were disloyal.
To your next comment, "The expiration, or "had been", nature was clearly not the point." Well, thank God for that! Since I was having this exact discussion with an Anon at the time, I assumed this was more of the same. This was the other Anons position--doesn't matter if the WMDs found were only chemical weapons 13+ years old and useless! Heck, WMDs are WMDs, that's good enough for me. Mission accomplished! Talk about a mind-numbing inferior stance.
And actually, you are incorrect, I did not attempt to redefine WMDs as ONLY applying to nukes. Check it out. The definition I posted came directly from a written source and stated that during the Cold War, WMDs referred only to nukes but since the Gulf War the definition had been expanded to include chemical and biological weapons. The point is all three types of weapons are now lumped together under the WMD label, but they are not created equal. The belief that Saddam had or was developing nuclear weapons was presented as the biggest threat of the three. I remember Bush saying so. You should too.
I also notice incongruent remarks. At one point, you wrote:
"by the time we invaded, there were no nukes."
To me this implies THERE WERE NUKES BEFORE WE INVADED, but by the time we got there they were gone. To say "by the time we invaded" makes it sound like you're hedging on this. That's different from saying there were no nukes, period.
And another, "I fully believe that Bush would NOT have invaded if the world knew then what they know now --- nukes were most likely a sham by Saddam." Precisely! So the nukes were the sine qua non for going into Iraq, not the chemical WMDs which everyone saw him use in the '80s, not the biological WMDs which everyone thought he was developing, not freeing the Iraqis, not even because Saddam was violating all the 1991 agreements. He had been doing all these things for almost two decades prior to the invasion. It was the possibility of nukes that was the final straw. This has been my assertion all along.
In the interest of time I'm not going through every comment point by point. Suffice it to say some of the other 23 were compelling, some were clearly just opinion, and some sound blown out of proportion in order to make a stronger case. But I still consider them icing because a war would not have been started on any of these points alone or even together. The cake was always the WMDs, most importantly, the nukes. And judging by this, it was a failure.
I also take exception to your comment that the description of Iraq as a failure was re-written with the surge. I don't accept that as readily as you. It shrugs off the 4 years of chaos that preceded it. This is not an insult to our military; they were only doing as instructed. But we get lucky with a Hail Mary pass at the end so now we're winners? It works that way in football, not a war with no clear ending. And we have a free Iraq--today. It's too early to say if any of it will stick, much less grow, once we leave. It's much too soon to claim victory.
My kids came from a womb, but I guess when it comes down to it there was a heck of a lot of "molding" being done as they grew up. You seem to want to believe that there was no work put into this, it's just how they are. That's not the case. We put a lot of hard work into raising our kids. We didn't yell at them and react emotionally to misbehavior. We were more strict if the infraction or behavior impacted someone other than just themselves. Punishments were of the appropriate severity for the level of behavior, were ones that they would actually learn from, some involved the natural consequences of the behavior, others were created in a way to teach them a lesson. They were not the same for each kid (that would have been easier) because each kid was so different and learned differently. They knew what they did wrong, why it was wrong, what happens as a result of the choice they made, and how to make a better choice the next time. They made better choices afterwards (and yes sometimes it might take a few tries to learn, but they did learn) and they made those better choices because it was the right thing to do, not because they were afraid of their parents or of getting hit. Clear understood rational rules, clear consequences, and consistency will help kids to learn to make better decisions. As they get older it will become more instinctual. Maybe my training as a teacher influenced this. How my husband and I were raised definitely does.
Yelling at a child is an emotional reaction, not a logical one. While it might be easier for a parent to just yell, it's better not to. When kids are yelled at, they don't really hear what you are saying, all they hear is noise. And they will say whatever it is they need to say to get it to stop.
Hitting a child is an emotional reaction too, not a logical one. A child again will shut down, and again just say whatever it is they need to say to make it stop. Hitting is not control, it is a loss of control. It may work in the immediate, but it does not work in the long term.
It is harder to react logically than it is to react emotionally.
I think you would be amazed to find that many teens who are in trouble (most likely most) were spanked as they were growing up. The other extreme is that they were too coddled and not held accountable for their actions. There is a middle ground where kids can be held accountable for their behavior without being hit. And yes there will always be anomalies who seem to come from perfect families yet also get in major trouble. Often it is discovered later that the family wasn't as perfect as it appeared. Other times it is discovered that there may be a mental health issue. And occasionally it's just an anomaly.
While I strongly believe that you should "spare the rod" I also strongly believe that you should never "spoil the child." Kids need to be provided the things they need, maybe a few of their wants, but also need to work for most of those wants. The kids in this area especially need to grow up realizing that they are pretty lucky to live where they live and that there are others out there who don't have the advantages that they have. They need to learn to be thankful for what they have, not just expect things to be given to them or done for them.
By the time a child is 18, there is not much you can do if they make a bad decision. They are considered adults. And unless you spend every waking moment with them and hover over them, you cannot control every decision they make. That's why it is so important to discipline them in a way that helps them learn to make better decisions in the future. Again, it takes a lot of hard work, a lot of thought, and yes a lot of restraint to override the emotional response and respond in ways that they will learn from. The girl with the stars did not talk to her parents before she made that decision, and has since come out and admitted she left the tattoo parlor very happy with her tattoos. The crime in this is that her parents, instead of making her take responsibility at first, wanted to blame the whole thing on the tattoo artist. But I would ask, why did she not feel she could talk to her parents ahead of time?
If you think back to when you were belted, how did you feel about it at the time? How did you feel about your father? Were you such a bad kid that you could not have learned from another form of discipline? My guess is that you could have learned another way. I would guess also that when it comes down to it, you would rather have not been belted.
Michael Jackson and his family are in no way a testament to the positive impact of belting. They are all pretty messed up, even Janet and Jermaine. They have all had some pretty dark periods of their lives. And all of them seem to feel that they are ugly and have overdone the plastic surgery in an effort to become better looking. But the truth is that they were quite good looking before any of the surgery, much better looking than they are now. What is it that makes them feel that they need such extensive work? A feeling that seems to be consistent across the entire family? Why is it that so many of them have loosened or completely cut their ties with their father?
I never claimed to have all of the answers or have the only right one (those were assumptions you made), merely presented things that worked here in the best way that I could. When it comes down to it, they are all things that are worth a try. And until someone tries them they won't know if they work. And it may work for some and some may need to find something else. But they should never give up.
I used my kids as examples because that is my experience and I do not feel it is right for me to be talking about other kids, although their friends are all making good choices too. At least if my kids read these posts, they would not be at all embarrassed or appalled at anything I said about them. Sure they've made mistakes, and they have learned from them, although none of them have been anything big, I sure as heck would not air them out on a public forum.
You said above
"I still have 2 other kids in the pipeline that did not make the teenage years yet. They are currently angels. Will they remain angels? I am hoping but I doubt it."
You seem to have already given up on them. I am saying try something different than what you have always done. Not necessarily what worked for my family, but something different.
When it comes down to it, I originally posted to respond to the insinuation that people should not allow teens to hang out at their homes because bad things will happen. I am sorry if that has been your experience. But I think as these posts have gone on, it has been pretty clear that your kids have made some choices along the way that have led to some of these issues in your home. While you have not come out admitted it literally, it's inherent in your posts.
Since this is "Open Topic" I saw the story below linked from the online Naperville Sun
The teenage gunman who admitted gunning down Julian High School honors student Blair Holt on a packed CTA bus was sentenced this afternoon to 100 years in prison.
Michael “Mario” Pace, 18, could have served life in prison for his role in the May 10, 2007, killing.
------------
So maybe it's just me, but this thug gets sentenced to 100 years in prison and the article says that he "could have received life". I'm gonna take a leap here and say that unless this kid lives to be 118 he in fact received a life sentence (deservedly so). Maybe this has something to do with parole eligibility etc. but the article doesn't say.
Like I think I posted much earlier, we are much closer to agreement than we think!
I do believe that if we knew there were no nukes, we would not have pushed for invasion at that point (probably would have moved into a severe squeeze on Iraq economic). But, hindsight is 20/20! The entire first world thought he had them,so.......
My comment on failure or not was only related to the acts of war, not os policy or world relations (clearly the world has/had issues with our invasion). Just as clearly, though absolutely no one ever thought the Iraqis would have even a chance at a democracy (and I think our definition of democracy does not apply to the ME at this time).
You know, all of the people I talk & debate with believe like I do that the middle 4.5 years of the Iraq war was completely bungled by the U.S.
Many, if not all, think the bungling was based in the changing of the ROE to treat the war as a police action(something conservatives accused, rightly so, the Dems of doing, yet they did it themselves!). My immediate family has several (teens) of deployments to Iraq and Afgan, as warriors and support (corp of eng) and consultants, and they have all agreed that the SOE until Petreaus got his way was dangerous to our troops and counter-productive. I mean, really ----why is it our feckless politicians think war can be humane? If you don't think it is humane, you might think it through a little more clearly, no?
For all the people posting about teens gathering .....
Let's not pretend that today's teens are really any different than past generations.
You hit 17,you believe you are immortal and your parents are idiots. You think you are the first generation to discover alcohol/sex/drugs, and you are generally a little bit of a prick. You rebel and push the envelope, period.
Anyone who really think our little Naperbrats are any different are engaging in fantasy. This is how they will learn ----- by experimenting and testing the boundaries. Without such testing they will move forward into a world where they are unarmed with the knowledge and experience that others have.
So let's quit pretending our little teens don't engage in the very same aberrant behavior we did!
When it comes down to it, I originally posted to respond to the insinuation that people should not allow teens to hang out at their homes because bad things will happen. I am sorry if that has been your experience. But I think as these posts have gone on, it has been pretty clear that your kids have made some choices along the way that have led to some of these issues in your home. While you have not come out admitted it literally, it's inherent in your posts.
I did admit that my daughter made a bad choice in her boyfriend and I have taken extreme measures to dispose of him once and for all. I am currently having some success. Maybe you are not reading what I write.
Contrary to what you say, I would advise parents not to allow their kids to make THEIR basement, a teenage hang-out unless your kids come out of a perfect mold instead of a womb. Mine and most kids in Naperville appeared to have come out of wombs.
No matter what most parents do and how well they raise their kids, in my opinion they experience REBELLION. It is a normal part of life. It is how kids eventually earn their freedom into adulthood. It is a ritual all teenagers and parents have to go through. We just have to keep tabs on this ritual so it does not have to get out of control as apparently occured with one of my children.
All I can say to you Former WV Mom, is your family is not typical and you are not equipped to advise familes with rebellious teenagers.
I have not given up on my young innocent angels who have not hit the teens. But I know from experience what to expect. I am not naive. I also know no matter what I will do, they will be rebelling to see how far they can push me. What kid wants to come home at 10pm or even midnight when his friends can stay out later?
As I said you have been lucky letting in 60 cross country kids in your home and not having a single thing stolen. In my opinion and experiences if you let that many teenagers in your home whether you know them well, slightly or not at all, you are asking for trouble. And I will bet you that at least one of them will take something from your home on the way out.
Try leaving a 20 dollar bill on the carpet in your basement in an inconspicuous place. I guarantee you one of the 60 kids will be tempted to pocket it and will separate you from it.
While you are a very nice and innocent lady, I really believe you either have been extremely lucky in life or have been naive to what occurs under you nose.
To Anonymous in the NNHS and NCHS area, and Former WV Mom:
I have two kids in the NVHS attendance area, so I'm situated between you two boundary-wise. I saw the article in tonight's Sun about the vandalism at NNHS, where obscenities were sprayed painted onto the newly installed artificial turf on the football field. So I thought I would add my experiences to the mix.
What I've experienced in this part of Naperville is pretty much the same as WV Mom. I have never had any problems with any of my children's friends. The worst that has happened is they will get too lively and something may get damaged or scratched, but no deliberate vandalism ever in our home, and definitely no theft. My kids will have several friends over at a time, often they will watch movies till late at night in the basement and we'll go to bed. We allow our older child to have groups of friends over and don't need to hover or watch them, and will leave them in the house alone for periods of time if we have other things to do. Stuff has always been left out when these kids are around--jewelry, iPods, cell phones, even cash. I've never given it a second thought, and neither have my kids.
When my girls were young and first started to have friends over, I would tell them that they were responsible for what their friends did in our home. So if someone got into something they shouldn't, or started making a mess or being destructive, it was my child's responsibility to step in first and enforce our house rules. If the behavior continued, then I would be summoned. If it still continued, the friend would be sent home. Over the years they got better at picking friends who weren't trouble-makers. Once in a while a bad apple would show up at a party or sleep over, but I can't think of a single time when they were invited back. This is all I have ever had to do. All the kids we know are great, and they all know they're welcome at our home anytime.
Here is a story that will probably blow Anon away. My oldest has her own car, nothing fancy, it's old but reliable. At one point she was using one of those combination wallet/key chain things which kept her ID, money and keys all together in one unit. One night she went out to dinner with friends. She didn't drive, so she put her wallet/key unit in her coat pocket. When she got home, it was gone. She figured it may have fallen out in the restaurant or when she was running across the parking lot in the rain. She went back to the restaurant and searched the parking lot; no luck. That's when we realized whoever found her wallet knew what she looked like, where she lived and went to school, and had the keys to both her car and our home. Yikes!! We knew the first thing we needed to do was have our house locks changed immediately.
But get this--the next day, a fellow NVHS student handed my daughter her wallet. Apparently, a family had found the wallet in the parking lot of the restaurant. They saw the student ID and took the wallet to their next door neighbor who had a daughter who attended Neuqua. She recognized my daughter and offered to return it to her the next day at school, which she did. Everything was there, cash and all. Can you imagine?
While remarkable, this is consistent with how the people are in this area, and I thought that included the 203 area of Naperville as well. I am really surprised to hear Anon is having such different experiences.
Seriously, the people I know who defend the war will not admit any fallacies in it's planning, purpose or implementation. They're very defensive about this. It was all good, or at least well-intentioned, which counts just as much. And they use the fact that the "surge worked" as justification for everything that preceded it. The surge worked, so it was all worth it, that's all that matters. I get the impression that even if the surge hadn't worked, it wouldn't have changed their outlook much.
But perhaps this can explain it--all these people are friends and family members who live in Texas. Folks here complain about the slobbering love affair some have for Obama. In Texas, the Bush family walks on water, probably always will.
I do forget this a lot, as we haven't lived there for quite some time. I even forget this when we visit. Last year, my family got together for dinner with a family we've known for over 15 years. They suggested a popular Texas steakhouse. My friend's wife had instructed him, "No talking politics", but he couldn't help himself. As soon as we were seated, he called me Obama girl, and we were off. Even our waitress was chiming in. After a while, tho, my husband nudged my arm. I looked around the room and noticed there were a lot of people staring at me. They did not look happy. And they were all clutching steak knives. I decided it was time to shut up.
The next time we get together, I'm insisting on sushi. The Japanese don't believe in having knives at the table.
By what the? on July 21, 2009 12:42 AM
To Anonymous in the NNHS and NCHS area, and Former WV Mom:
While remarkable, this is consistent with how the people are in this area, and I thought that included the 203 area of Naperville as well. I am really surprised to hear Anon is having such different experiences.
By Anonymous on July 13, 2009 6:42 PM
Former WV Mom,
Just a few days ago my daughter invited a girl from Extreme Dance to our home that she trusted. This is a group that won 2 national championships in the last 2 years in Ocean Beach, MD and Las Vegas and are seeking a third consecutive championship next month in Myrtle Beach, S.C. Girls that practice their dance routines 12 hours some days to be the best they can be.
This girl she invited from the Dance Studio asked if she could have 3 male friends over that she was sure were 99.99% honest. One of the male friends from Aurora stole my daughters cell phone and the key to the house on the way out.
The girl's family has been awesome. They raided his car and retrieved the cell phone minus the sym card. They are pressuring his parents to force him to cough up the key to the house he stole from the door. It turns out the kid who goes to Waubonsie already has a break and entering conviction unbeknownest to anyone until we googled him.
As I said in my earlier post this was not the 1st time her cell phone was stolen. The other 3 times it was by Naperville Central and Naperville North students or graduates. The first time it got stolen while she was at a church camp in Indiana sleeping.
I think your post implies NC and NN kids are worse than NV and WV kids. If you followed our posts you would see the last person to steal my duaghters phone was from WVHS.
Former WV Mom admitted her daughter's phone was stolen. Not in her home but from her locked locker at WVHS by I assume, another WVHS student and not a NNHS or NCHS student.
Our last story ended happily because the 3 kids that the X-Treme dancer from WVHS bought to our home were well known by the X-Treme dancer and her WV Mom. She interviewed them and could tell from the responses who stole the cell phone. The family was very upset that kids who her daughter invited to our home could steal. They somehow got into the car of the offender and retrieved the cell phone. It was missing the sym card. They could not find the key to the house the kid stole.
This is about another current WV Mom who trusted her kids and knew their friends well....or thought she did. Ironically, when we called the other WV Mom for help the thief she trusted was in her home. She obviously did not know he was a thief as he was the friend of her children for quite a while
I am pretty sure he is not allowed in her home anymore. I am pretty sure she learned a lesson that the blogging former WV Mom has not learned yet. Like I said she has been lucky or really does not know if something is missing in her home.
We know from she and I, at least 2 bad apples exist at WVHS. One has a record of home invasion and one has a record of locker invasion. So be careful. That is all I have to say if you don't know who these 2 students are.
Theft is not limited to just NCHS and NNHS.
And please "What If?" don't be naive and think theft does not exist at NVHS just because I do not have any specific example to give you. Do an FOIA request with the NPD on current and former NVHS students and I bet you will find hundreds of criminals at that school too.
Anyway we are extremely grateful to the current WV Mom who was instrumental in getting my daughter's cell phone back. Having her 4th phone stolen by age 19 from her, in the "Best Place to Raise Kids in America" was a bit too overwhelming for her at such a young age.
And now we have kids painting X rated graffiti on a brand new football field at NN...what is next. No wonder Naperville is no longer making the grades for Best Place to Live in America in the CNN/Money ratings. I know high taxes in this town is another determining factor as to why Naperville will not be ranked highly anymore in the future, but let us save that for another thread and another day.
And since the suspects have not been found for the latest graffiti incident at NNHS, they could be from NVHS. At this point no one knows. When I was at the university most of our graffitti incidents were caused by our rivals. This should be a hint to help the NPD solve the latest crime.
I was responding to this comment "One would never think that so many teenagers in Naperville that attend Naperville Central and Naperville North could be thieves" from Advice to Parents of Teens. Wasn't this you originally? I have no idea if kids in your area are better or worse. All I know is that I haven't had this happen enough to say this about the kids at NVHS.
Of course there are thefts at NVHS. I said I have never had a theft FROM MY HOME by any of my children's friends or anyone else, for that matter. And yes, we would notice if anything of value is missing.
One thing we've had a problem with at NV is with calculators. There are these certain types of calculators that are required for some math classes. They cost $100 and are usually kept behind the check-out counters at Staples rather than on the racks; you have to ask for them. There is a thriving black market at Neuqua for these. They're routinely stolen and resold to students for around $20.
We'll see if those responsible for the vandalism at NNHS turn up. If it was done by a rival as you suggested, which is a good possibility, isn't NNHS's primary rival NCHS, since they're 203s two competing high schools? Just sayin'.
Maybe this was a separate post topic before & I don't recall, but I wondered what you all think about Twitter.
Kevin Spacey is on David Letterman tonight talking about Twitter. Kevin does Tweet but David doesn't get it & finds it a waste of time. I am feeling very odd or old, I'm not sure which, that I agree with Dave. I don't get it...as a society we are worried about stalkers (which yes I've had one...not fun!) and privacy for so much & then people tell you what they are doing all day long. I don't need to know you are at the grocery store buying toilet paper. I actually do not get Facebook either...seems just a popularity thing. Just saying "Hi...good luck" or "I'm on vacation" ? Why not blog? Blogging at least you can explain more & yes add pictures etc. Are we getting to a point where we can only handle short sentence messages? My younger siblings are trying to convince me & I just haven't received a good enough argument for it I guess?
Jesse James (Sandra Bullock's husband) is on saying when he was 5 yrs old he wrote *U on a piece of paper & tied it to a rock & threw it over the fence to the 80 yr old woman & that was his version of twitter! HA!
Yes, we did have a topic on Twitter not too long ago, but anyway, I think Twitter is pointless, but I do like Facebook. When I first signed up for Facebook I didn't use it much and didn't see the point, but as more of my friends got on it and started using it more often, it has become much more useful. It's great for someone my age to keep in touch with friends from high school and college who I don't see anymore but would still like to have be a part of my life. Basically, there is a human desire to be a part of something, and with Facebook you feel like you are a part of your friends' lives because you hear about them on a daily basis. Otherwise you may go months without talking to them, but this way you at least know when some significant or even minor event happens in their lives, at the time it happens. I suppose Twitter can do a lot of the same things, but I just think Facebook is better.
I hear Obama is planning a prime time news conference tonight on the health care proposal. I hope a lot of you plan to tune in, even if it is only to sling verbal rotten tomatoes. But in between swings, you might catch some reoccurring themes.
I posted previously that the problem with health care reform is that it is so multifaceted--the legal profession blocking tort reform, the AMA, the health care industry, the insurance companies, the pharmaceutical companies all blocking any kind of reform for fear that it will cut into their profits--that there is no one, or even several, easy solutions. Someone replied that there is not "a cabal of big businesses conspiring to screw all of us." No, they are not conspiring to screw all of us, but there is a cabal of big businesses that are frantically working against any reform because it's in their best interests to do so. It's called lobbying. Check it out:
"The major health interests have spent an average of $1.4 million per day to lobby Congress so far this year and are on track to spend more than half a billion dollars by the end 2009. That comes out to about $2,600 per day per member of the House and Senate. The pharmaceutical lobby alone spent $733,000 per day in the first quarter of 2009. Since 2000, the industries have spent over $3 billion on lobbying, with the total increasing every year and rising more than 142 percent over the course of the decade. In each of the past four years health interests have been the number-one lobbying force in Washington, measured in expenditures, and have averaged over $1 million per day.
Why spend so much? Three words: return on investment. While a drug company might spend a few million dollars lobbying, it stands to gain, or lose, billions in the outcome.
One big example: the 2003 Medicare drug legislation, under which Medicare began covering prescription drugs. One provision shifted poor, elderly consumers from Medicaid to Medicare - more bluntly, from a program where the government can negotiate with drug companies over prices, to a program where the new legislation prohibited such negotiations.
Most estimates find that the Medicaid-to-Medicare shift was worth billions of dollars for the drugmakers. Meanwhile, the Center for Responsive Politics puts the pharmaceutical industry’s 2003 lobbying expenditures at $126.1 million.
This is why the status quo is so resistant to change. If it's a contest between what millions of Americans want vs. what some powerful and rich industries willing to spend millions on lobbying want, generally the lobbyists win. And in health care, you've got a lot of players--lawyers, doctors, insurers, pharmaceuticals, hospitals, HMOs, medical groups, biotech firms, etc., etc., all willing to spend whatever they have to in lobbying to promote their interests.
That's hard muscle for Capitol Hill to resist. Check out these charts listing the top Senate and House recipients, Democrats, Republicans, and Independents, of health care lobbying dollars:
That's the way it was 23 years ago when I was researching my undergrad thesis; it's the exact same way it is today.
So for those of you against any sweeping health care reform in favor of individually picking out the problem areas in our health care system and "solving" these, I can only tell you this has already been tried, time and again. Unsuccessfully. That's why we are where we are today.
By mayday on July 22, 2009 10:31 AM
Advice to parents - How many cell phones you going to keep giving your daughter until she learnes to take care of it?
Very good question? I have asked that same question to myself. I usually delay buying her a new cell phone for a month or so she can sweat it a little bit.
In then end, a cell phone helps me track her. I can call and know where she is at. She can call if she is in trouble. The police can track her if she ever got in serious trouble. Therefore, there is a trade-off and I would rather the punishment be elsewhere.
In the end it is difficult to guard your possessions 24/7. Even WV Mom had to buy her daughter a new phone after a WB student broke into her locked locker and stole her daughter's phone. If my daughter had "friends of friends" she thought were trustworthy, over, I am not sure I can blame her 100% if an idiot decided to look in her purse and grab something, while she used the restroom for a split second in HER OWN HOME.
We thought the network this kid was in was up to par because he came with another dancer from X-Treme Dance. He had been in her home and her WV Mom had checked him out...sized him up....allowed him into her home numerous times.(not blogging Former WV Mom.)
In summary, people can take Former WV Mom's advice and let 60 students run around her home after she meets them briefly and hope for the best....or maybe hope for lots of luck.
Or they can take my advice and prohibit large groups from lingering and loitering in their basements.
I have tried pleasing both my older daughters by allowing them to host large groups. I let them even decorate the basement and have a Halloween Open Party. It was a day from hell with a cake fight developing and the carpet getting unimaginable stains. Thankfully, the basement flooded 3 months later and the insurance company replaced it for us. It was only one year old.
I say if you value your home and kids, keep large groups of kids out of your home. There are public places in Naperville that are more equipped to handle large groups of kids. I will be using them to handle the needs of my last 2 children as they hit the teenage years. In the end, even the cost will be less. Most of these public places have video surveillance so it is easier to track the cell phone and calculator thieves. Yes, as another blogger stated, I believe they are traded on the black market for 20 bucks each. Those who steal them probably use the money to satisfy their drug and alcohol addictions since their parents probably don't give them money for either.
Anyway, I hope people take my advice. They won't regret it. If you take former WV Mom's advice it is like rolling the dice in Las Vegas. You can win temporarily as she did, but in the end the HOUSE always wins. Yes, the HOUSE ALWAYS WINS UNLESS YOU ARE IN DENIAL!
I saw this on CNN's political ticker. It sounds like Obama has a number of fellow Democrats to convince along with the rest of us. I'm anxious to hear his conference, hopefully he will supply some answers for us in the middle class. I'm most curious how he intends to raise taxes on businesses and not expect it to trickle down to me. Oh well, I'm sure he will explain it all in detail.
One Democratic senator tells CNN congressional Democrats are “baffled,” and another senior Democratic source tells CNN members of the president’s own party are still “frustrated” that they’re not getting more specific direction from him on health care.
You may want to make sure you check previous posts before you respond to things. My daughter was never the one to get anything stolen. Her older brother had an Ipod stolen from a locked locker while he was at practice. And we did not ever buy him a new one. He paid for half of it with his own cash, and the rest with a Target gift card his grandparents gave him for his birthday. And he waited a good 2-3 months until he got a new one.
My daughter accidentally dropped her phone and broke it. She paid for the replacement herself.
Neither of my kids ever had anything else stolen. And neither has broken another phone.
Again, I will reiterate, know your kids well, know their friends well. Talk to every kid as they come in your home, chances are you won't have an issue like the ones you have. Sounds like "What the" is doing the same things I am and it's working for him/her too.
Gee What the ? Do I watch the Sox game or do I watch Obama read a teleprompter telling ME I no longer have pro-choice for MY health care and MY medical treatment? Oh well, I'm sure the moron will explain it all in detail for YOU.
By Former WV Mom on July 22, 2009 3:55 PM
You may want to make sure you check previous posts before you respond to things. My daughter was never the one to get anything stolen. Her older brother had an Ipod stolen from a locked locker while he was at practice.
This is a very minor technicality that does not dispute the point I was making. That bad students also exist at WVHS just like NNHS and NCHS.
Wheter it was a phoneless Ipod or a cell phone that was taken out of the locked locer at WVHS what difference does it really make? Whether it was your son's or daughter's Ipod what differnce does it really make to the debate we are having? Honesty, it makes no difference. Your point is POINTLESS.
People can listen to you and have large groups of teenagers circling in their houses and suffer the pending and imminent consequences.
Or people can listen to me and keep large groups of teenagers out of their homes and not suffer the pending and imminent consequences.
We live in an evil world. People can come to your house and see a safe. The next thing they are blabbering about it innocently. Then a criminal hears them and kills you and your husband to take the safe.
It just happened in Florida to one of the nicest and most trusting couples in the world. To a couple that devoted their lives to raising 16 handicapped or challenged children. They even had video surveillance to deter this kind of activity. It did not work. I am willing to bet your are taking these massive risks without even having video surveillance in your home since you appear to be the trusting kind.
In the Florida case it was not one loose cannon...not a whacko. It was literally a small army of thugs. Eight have been arrested so far and they are looking at 4 more suspects or persons of interest. Do you think these kinds of thugs only live in Florida, former WV Mom? They are everywhere including in Illinois and possibly Naperville.
People need to protect themselves from evil doers, Former WV Mom. I know you mean very well, but you are endangering families thoughout Naperville with your well-intentioned but ill advice.
I just want people to understand that there is another side to your good fortunes so far. Families with young kids need to be AWARE and not NAIVE as to what awaits them as their kids get older.
Nice health care news conference Obama. Looking very presidential and saying nothing! Zero! Nada! This guy has 15 months experience as a U.S. Senator and that is about it. Why am I not surprised he said nothing, had no charts, graphs or other presentation materials ultimatley failing to change the hearts and minds of his skeptics. I called the White House 202-456-1213 and expressed my displeasure. Can't wait to see the polls tomorrow. Way to go What the ?. You can sure pick a winner.
To Anonymous on July 22, 2009 6:54 PM
and Anonymous on July 22, 2009 9:44 PM:
All you Anons must be the same person, you all sound the same. Closed minds and open mouths. Stick to the Sox games, it's less of a challenge for you. Charts, graphs, presentation materials? What do you think this is, a high school class? Go back to school and get your GED if you want "presentation materials", this is grown-up life. No one's going to draw you a picture if you don't get it.
And yes, I can pick a winner. O's in the White House. So there.
The reason I was correcting you earlier was really to get across a different point that you seemed to miss. The point that we did not replace the one item stolen or the one that was broken because we felt our kids did hold some culpability in the situations. Our son should have left the Ipod at home. Our daughter needed to be more careful. Teens tend to be much more careful with things if they have to pay to replace them with their own money and mommy or daddy don't bail them out all the time.
Not allowing your kids, if they are well behaved, trustworthy, good thinkers, making good choices, to not have kids over to hang out means they may end up hanging out at another home where the parents may not be as on top of things or aren't supervising at all.
Anomalies happen. Comparing any of this to the incident in Florida is utterly ridiculous, which is why I never responded to that posts and posts ago. That is what I mean when I say you blow things entirely out of proportion. Should we all live our lives in fear every day? Should we all just lock ourselves and our kids up in our homes just in case a one in a billion case like the one in Florida occurs? Should the people with younger kids right now just give up in fear from what you are saying? Or maybe they could consider some of the things I have said and start putting some work in now to minimize the chances of having problems with teenagers in their home.
I'm sorry you have had such bad luck in your home. But it's your kids and your kids' friends that are causing these issues in your home. It is not teens in general. Yes there are some bad apples out there, but there are a heck of a lot of good ones too.
I do see a bit of a difference with Facebook but is knowing what is going on in a person's life actually being a part of their life? Feeling like you are vs really are? I know...but interesting to me where we are going in society. I must be getting old & well, being in the discipline I am in, but it is just not the same to me. General postings & responding is still quite depersonalized than a phone call or email, much less getting together. In fact, could it actually be reducing those even more? I know some are benefiting employment wise making connections so I see some benefit but at the same time it really makes me wonder where we are heading. We'll see what I do in the future though????
OWVY, I do know what you mean. There is a definite dumbing down in our society and I hear stories of students who write their high school papers in "text" language. As someone who has loved books and writing my whole life, that is appalling. It certainly shouldn't be the only method of communication, but it is good supplemental communication. At least in my case, many of the people I keep up with on Facebook are people who otherwise I just wouldn't talk to anymore. Many of them I haven't seen since high school, but I found them on Facebook. It's not the same as a real friendship where you do things together in person, but it's better than the alternative. And for those people you do see in person, Facebook is an entry point to face to face discussion. Many times I've said to a person, or had them say to me, "I saw on Facebook you did so and so ..." and then we talk about it. I didn't think Facebook would be useful at first, but now its gotten so I check it when I get up and before I go to bed and usually a time or two in between.
Sources within City Hall have tipped me off that yet another nightclub is coming to downtown Naperville. Blackfinn American Saloon with a New York theme will be locating on Jefferson Ave. between Washington and Main Street where so many pops and moms have gone out of business in recent months.
I guess downtown will one day be 100% bars, restaurants, lounges, taverns, nightclubs and now saloons. The way it is going we will soon have New York Style Peep Shows. Korean Massage Parlors. And why not some Las Vegas style Gentlemen Clubs. What the hell maybe Naperville can legalize prostitution and add a Chicken Ranch Brothel that our kids can pass by while they go to Lou Malnati's or Cold Stone Creamery.
Pretty soon we will need 17 cops and a canine dog on the corner of Washington St. and Jefferson Ave in addition to the 17 cops and canine dog on Chicago Ave when the bars let out. This New York Style Saloon is estimating 5-6 million in sales. This is a lot more drunks for the police to handle.
While I plan on checking out Blackfinn American Saloon as it sounds like an exciting concept, I am a little worried about the tax impact on my real estate properties and of others in Naperville.
Anyway, I hope City Hall understands the conseqences of converting downtown to a 100% Party District. I would like to see at least one block in downtown saved for family type businesses before it is too late. What happened to limits on liquor licenses we once had?
Let us face it only alcohol serving establishments can afford the high rents and high taxes in downtown. I would like to see one block with lower rent and lower taxes in order not to run the rest of the mom and pop shops and non-alcoholic establishments out of dt Naperville. In order that we have a few ice cream and pizza shops left for the kids.
Sadly, despite all these saloons coming to town, we are still subsidizing the downtown. Yes, the residential homeowners are. It seems to me if these saloons are coming from all over the country to locate in Naperville they must be certain that it is profitable to establish such places in dt Naperville. I say welcome to all of them but please pay whatever it takes to support the downtown. Please don't expect subsidies from the taxpayers while you take your profits not only out of our city, but out of the state. Please pay your fair share to keep our downtown bustling and thriving. Please pay your fair share to help pay for the massive police presence you need in order to be able to intoxicate your customers while the police deal with the consequences.
Let us face it these saloons, old and new, will never voluntarily step up to the plate. The City of Naperville must step up to the plate and make sure these places are self-sufficient when it comes to city provided services.....in other words NO MORE SUBSIDIES from the taxpayers.
BlackFinn American Saloon appears to have a long term lease signed contingent to obtaining a liquor license. They have plans to open up in a couple of months. They don't want anyone to know for now so they don't encounter any resistance in obtaining their liquor license. Once they get their liquor license, you will see them advertise their location big time. But you will not hear a word about them until they have all the i's dotted and t's crossed with our City Officials out of the public eye in almost secrecy. Why do we the taxpayers not have any input in the decision as to who comes downtown since we subsidize them with our home real estate taxes?
If you have any objections, this may be your only window of opportunity to stand up and be counted...to object if you will. Don't complain after it is too late. It won't do any good. The city will never publicize anything that will encounter resisitance that they want approved. It appears to me the city wants BlackFinn American Saloon to join the Party District. Next, expect them to ask for part of the street in front of them for valet parking. Pretty soon we will not have any street parking left in dt Naperville. Those use to be our streets and we pretty much gave them to the saloons for NOTHING! For Nothing! Why? Why not a $2000 a year annual license fee for the right to use our taxpayer streets for valet parking by each establishment that wants to have valet rights?
Yes, The BlackFinn American Saloon will be on Jefferson Ave between Washington & Main and coming very very soon. Trust me as I am not a used car salesman, that feeds you bull.
Yep, I've been aware for weeks that some Democrats, especially but not exclusively the Blue Dogs, are having cold feet about health care reform. Who knows what's going on there. Change is risky, especially big changes that can hold politicians accountable. I think it is freaking out a lot of the Capitol Hill crowd. And let's not forget lobbying pressures.
O talks about raising taxes on the wealthy, the top 1% of wage earners that have benefited most from the last 8 years of TAX CUTS by the Bush administration. I'm sure they'll handle a small increase just fine after so many years of being taxed less than the rest of us. I've never heard him say anything about taxing "businesses". I didn't hear him say anything about taxing businesses last night, either. The only time I heard O mention businesses was in reference to the fact that many of them could not afford to give their employees health insurance anymore and that the current cost structures were breaking them.
Seriously, tho, you don't want to get me started on the trickle down stuff and the fear mentality of the average American wage earner. It's best we don't go there.
You might want to use data instead of soundbites ---- the top 1% now pay the highest amount of taxes ever, a number that significantly ROSE the last 8 years.
Yes, Change is the key word here. My company has recently begun questioning why none of us like "change" and why can't we accept it because after all we have been taught that "the only constant is change"! My response to my supervisor was to list the 5 most recent changes to my role with the company.
1. A change in the commission plan (I will earn less for the same amount of sales).
2. A change to the stock option plan (Won't get them for 2 years)
3. A change in responsibility (I now have 40% more area to cover for the same pay).
4. A change in personnel - 20% of my colleagues were laid off.
5. A change in our health care plan - I now have to pay 25% more in premiums.
(I realize that I am lucky enough not to have a change in my employment status). So yes, I told him that change has a negative connotation, and that everytime we change something it costs me money. Just once I'd like to hear that they are making a change and doubling my raise, adding vacation time, or giving me something I hadn't counted on. Now there's a change I could like.
I submit to you that many people have been conditioned that change is not what it's cracked up to be - could be semantics I don't know? When we hear "massive change" it freaks everyone out.
The taxes will be increased to the "richest 1%" (I never liked this phrase when Gore used it, and I still don't). But the richest 1% are those that make over 350K (jointly) which includes many small business owners. These owners are on record as saying the increase will be passed along. It's also not a stretch to consider that Democrats have made it known they will be taxing large businesses (Exxon, GM, Wal Mart) who they consider to be profitable and as you mentioned, "I'm sure they'll handle a small increase just fine". These businesses will pass the increases along on things we buy. Look what the Illinois dems have done with the liquor tax starting in Sept. (and more related to the dire straits Illinois is in rather than health care). If I was someone who purchased booze (snick, snick) I will begin paying more for it once the increase goes through.
And for my buddy Bush and his tax cuts. With the recent times I have had to cash in some long held mutual funds - I paid a 15% capital gain on them because they are long term. This is down from 20 and 27% capital gains in the past so in my case while I'm not in the richest 1% I certainly benefitted from paying less tax which I then turned around and used to buy a new washer and dryer (true story).
Has anyone else noticed there are suddenly Japanese beetles all over the place? Every time I go out on my deck I see them buzzing around, and they're chewing up my bean plants. I don't recall ever seeing them in past years. Looks like another invasive pest making itself at home in our area.
My tip led you to the out-of state corporate web site which verified my claim. Without my tip, you would have never known.
The company is trying to keep it hush hush locally. They are taking over the old Tessa and do not even have a sign in the window of the store. That should tell you in itself, they are trying to keep it a SECRET locally for now. Notice Charles Schwabb has been promoting in his windows months before he opens. He is not worried about any resident's resistence. He does not need a liquor license to operate.
As I said BlackFinn Saloon wants to keep this low key with little local resistance until all the i's and t's are dotted on its licensing. I suspect the City wants to do the same as they convert the downtown from a once beautiful family destination to "Sin and Drink City." City Officials are not satisfied that we have the second most DUI's in the state. They want to be the Champion DUI City in the state since they have given all hope of being the "Best Place to Raise Kids in the USA."
Without my tip, neither you or most people would have known about this new liquor establishment until they made the official announcement. That is a FACT. It is nice to know a few employees, officials OR council members at City Hall. Do you know anyone at City Hall, Anonymous?
Searching the national web would have never led you to this story. There are trillions of web pages on the international interent web. You need a tip to do your search and I provided you with a tip that made your search possible. You need a name to do a search. I provided you with the full name.
If you are so smart give me the name of the next saloon that will be opening in dt Naperville before I tip you off....not after. That is a challenge for you. Are you up for the challenge?
So the laugh is on you for using MY tip to get more information. In the future try to give credit where credit is due. BTW, thanks for verifying the accuracy of my tip.
How many stories have you broken on this blog site? None. I broke many including the Moser/Harris bankrupty at Seven Bridges. Sure, if someone searched the Dupage Records they could have discovered it....but no one did and no one had any reason to until MY tip. Moser and Harris were not going to publicize their fateful bankruptcy. It is like saying my tip was worthless because it was already hidden in lengthy court records in the basement of Dupage County..lol...at you.
People don't make searches or investigations unless they have a tip or a lead. I provided tips as a good Citizen Investigative Journalist. Do you think the Naperville Sun has journalists working full time at City Hall and Dupage County sifting through records? Plus at City Hall if you try to go through official channels, they won't give you anything without a Freedom of Information Request or a Notice to Produce. Hopefully, you know that, if you have been blogging with us for a while.
You have done nothing as an Anonymous Blogger but blabber.
Former Moderator Jim Lynch and former Host Ted Slovik asked you to step up to the plate and be a Citizen Journalist. It is time you stepped up to the plate and showed us what you have to offer. So far, it has been NOTHING!
So there was Obama last night acting presidential and giving a news conference justifying his socialization of health care until at the end. A washed up and washed out (Geez Lynn you are on national TV) Sun Times reporter asked about some black scholar arrested after breaking into his own home because he acted like an A$$hole. Our smartest president ever allows the entire purpose of the evening to be side tracked (where he really did not say anything anyway). He spouts off about an incident he really knows little about and makes ingnorant and supidly comments looking very unpresidential. Today I was reading a police website and one of the comments made me think of What the ? and her unbridled and can you not think support for anything from the Democrats. It read: Obama is an accronym for Our Big A$$ Mistake America. Lets hope we can correct it by 2012 and hope this affirmative action experiment with people like What the ? clearing her conscious does not damage the nation too stupidly. So there!
Whats the matter CIJ? Afraid it might take business away from your favorite watering holes? You don't seem opposed to bars or night clubs or restaurants in other towns. You are such a hypocrite.
By Fed UP With The Noise on July 23, 2009 4:50 PM
Whats the matter CIJ? Afraid it might take business away from your favorite watering holes? You don't seem opposed to bars or night clubs or restaurants in other towns. You are such a hypocrite.
I am not opposed to nice saloons downtown Naperville. I am opposed to the subsidization that is created by their presence. I would be opposed to Gentlemen's Clubs, Korean Massage Parlors that deliver Happy Endings, and Las Vegas Style Chicken Ranches also know as brothels.
The Seven Bridges Life Time Plaza has several bars and lounges. One of which I frequent. You will find no stationed police in that humongous plaza despite have many liquor licenses and a huge theater complex. They come if they are called and do their routine checks every hour or so. The liquor licensees appear to have adequate security and the plaza has no major problems. I have yet to see my first fight in that plaza. I have seen dozens and dozen in downtown NAPERVILLE. Maybe the massive police presence in dt Naperville emboldens the patrons to fight since they know the police will step in and break it up before one or the other delivers a knock out bunch. I really don't know why there are so many fights and arrests on Chicago Ave and Washington St.
In downtown Naperville, I witnessed 17 cops and a canine dog the other day on ONE INERSECTION during a fist fight between 2 guys while their girl friends did their thing. A more typical evening is about a dozen cops. Think TAX DOLLARS when you see so many cops on one intersection. Think your home is not being protected because all the night beat cops are literally on one intersection. Stabbings and robberies have taken i place in other parts of town, while the City of Naperville parades its Crown Jewel DT with its Army of Police. Sometimes I feel like I am living in a communist police state when I see Armies of Cops. No other town wastes taxpayer money in this insane way. Check out Oak Brook, Lombard or Downers Grove. You will not see this insanity. Oak Brook is loaded with bars and does not even assess a real estate tax on their residential home dwellers. We need to ask ourselves what we are doing wrong. What happened in 25 years to cause our home real estate taxes to quadruple? Is there any end in sight to these 11% escalations in our annual real estate tax bills? How long are the residents willing to tolerate them before they say enough is enough.
Also, Woodridge does not build and subsidize parking decks for their liquor licensees. The landlords are required to come up with the required parking. Seven Bridges had plans for a parking deck but as you know went bankrupt so the project was halted. Do you think Woodridge taxpayers would ever build a parking deck for the bars in their "Nightclub District" like we here do in Naperville? Of course not!
So that is really the BIG DIFFERNCE. The only hypocrisy is a figment of your imagination, Mr. Noisemaker.
I have no interest in protecting any watering hole from its competitors. My only interest is keeping my taxes and those of my neighbors affordable. My only interest is kicking the drunken sailors out of town before they kick me out of town because I can not afford the taxes on such projects like OMNIA that are fully subsidized by the Naperville Taxapyer. Many times, I have been told to leave this town by the drunken sailors who want to spend and spend recklessly. I am not leaving. I am remaining to expose them. They should leave for being wasteful and not me for wanting some frugalness.
As I have said numerous times, you make so much NOISE on this blog site, I am surprised you have not blown your eardrums out yet.
PS. And speaking of hypocrisy, aren't you the one that asked your fellow bloggers not to correspond with me so I would "go away." Why is it that you can not practice what you preach to others? Your buddies Anonymous One and Keyboard Rambo can't seem to honor the boycott either. I guess you found out how much influence you folks have on this blog site.....ZERO....ZILCH. So please stop making so much NOISE and DEAFENING yourself and your fellow stooges.
You are so impressed with your self - you seem to think you are the smartest, most important blogger to ever come across this site. you seem to feel you are the only one who has any insight or valid perspective on how Naperville should be run and what is good or not good for the city. You who apparently see corruption in every facet of city government, greed and graft and theft at ever turn by every public servant
Your constant pandering to the editor, your holier than thou attitude, your constant berating of any one who disagrees with you on any subject - all shows us how shallow and insecure you really are. Your advocacy of the beating of children - your hatred of police - all make many ask what is wrong with you and what horrible things happened to you in your life to make you so angry and bitter and anti social. You are to be pitied.
By Former WV Mom on July 23, 2009 1:19 AM
That is what I mean when I say you blow things entirely out of proportion. Should we all live our lives in fear every day? Should we all just lock ourselves and our kids up in our homes just in case a one in a billion case like the one in Florida occurs?
The Florida case is not a one in a billion. Robberies, home invasions and murders are rampant throughout the United States.
This case is only a one to a billion due the international publicity it is receiving because the victims were very wealthy and very generous. They were raising 16 handicapped and challenged kids that were mostly adopted. They were the last people on earth who deserved to be murdered....and yet they were murdered.
Most robberies and murders in the USA only make the local newspaper, if that. They get no national publicity so we know nothing about them or their unfortunate victims.
We should not live our lives scared. But we need to be cautious and careful. Very cautious and careful!
You have chose to take a risk and let people rampage through your house because they introduced themselves to you on the way in. That is your right and prerogative.
I have chose to not take any more risks after taking risks for 10 years and suffering the consequences.
You made your very good point and I made my very good point.
Bloggers who have children approaching the teenage years can take your advice or my advice. They have a choice. We gave them choices and they know the consequences either way in advance of their future decisions.
Unless, they have your excellent gut feeling about detecting honesty, I strongly recommed they take my safe advice.
"He spouts off about an incident he really knows little about and makes ingnorant (sic) and supidly (sic) comments." Who's really looking ingnorant and supidly? LOL!!
Stick to the armed insurrection thing, at least you can spell that.
To Anonymous on July 23, 2009 5:30 PM--
Nope, not buying it. Data, just like statistics, can be manipulated and interpreted to substantiate differing things. Percentage-wise, the top 1% paid less in taxes in the past 8 years than their much poorer counterparts, thanks to the Bush admins tax cuts for the uber rich. Goggle Warren Buffet's comments on this subject.
And Glock, uber is not a misspelling. It is German for over or beyond; in its usage here means "super". Just wanted to save you the embarrassment of jumping all over it.
"You have chose to take a risk and let people rampage through your house because they introduced themselves to you on the way in. That is your right and prerogative."
Rampage through my house? I don't think so. That seems to be your house you are talking about there. Just because you have no control of the kids that come in your house, does not mean other people don't. As I have said numerous times, the kids that have always come in my house have been respectful and well behaved. A little noisy at times, but that's about it. And they don't just introduce themselves as they come in. As I also said, I already know them. As they come in to my house they actually talk to me and touch base with me.
Again...the rampage comment is you exaggerating and blowing things out of proportion. You seem to have gained quite the reputation on these boards. Maybe you should spend less time on here and more time actually paying attention to your kids and their friends when they are in your house.
In the meantime for me, I am totally done with wasting my time on you. After hearing the comments of other people on here, I relaize you are just not worth my time.
False. I disliked how one police officer handled the Napergate Man because he had a suspended license due to a toll that was not his fault. Suddenly, you call that "hatred of police." Barack Obama did not like how the Cambridge Police Dept. handled his friend who was locked out of his house and called the actions of the dept. utter stupidity. BTW, I agree with our President. Does that means he also has low self esteem and is a cop hater? In both cases each man spent 4 hours in jail to satisfy the ego of police officers and not to further any good cause, justice or provide some kind of deterrence effect to future generations.
While the Professor may have said a word or two during his moment of frustration, that is no reason to charge and arrest him. In the case of the Napergate Man, there is no evidence he even cussed on the police officer. He simply asked if he could take his dog home and turn himself in. Instead they dumped his friend and dog in downtown Naperville forcing them to walk 5 miles in the middle of the night as no tax cab would take a dog. President Obama may have also said the Naperville Police Dept. acted stupidly if he was apprised of the Napergate Fiasco, but I never used such a strong word against the NPD.
If I disagree with the actions of a police officer that rises to the level of HATRED, Mr. Noisemaker. Where is Former WV Mom to tell you that you may be exaggerating. Shame on your shameful propaganda and lies. My only claim was the police officer did not use appropriate discretion in arresting the Napergate Man considering his long and sensitive history in this town. Many bloggers who were not me came on and condemned the action of the police officer and some even cussed on him. I can not take responsibilty for what others say. I gave 10 examples of people cussing from 1 thread when I was challenged by John Q. Public.
Yes, I once used fictional characters and many times people would use my own fictional characters and attack the police and then knowingly attack me for making remarks I did not make. Do you folks think blogs are a courtroom where people are sworn to the truth under oath before they are cross examined? Wishful thinking.....
It is about gamemanship to destroy the credibility of a good messenger with a great message that you can not refute. All who have tried to play games with me have been sliced, diced and shredded. They run away after I expose them. Experienced claimed he was a Forensic Accountant and could not even perform a simple calculation. After I exposed him, he ran away. No one has heard from him in weeks. I guess he was too embarrassed to come back to this blog site after claiming it was me who miscalcualted when it was him.
2. You who apparently see corruption in every facet of city government, greed and graft and theft at ever turn by every public servant.
Very nice fabrications, Noisemaker. Calling City Officials drunken sailors who waste taxpayer money does not rise to the level of corruption. Saying our city officials are guilty of improprieties does not rise to the level of corruption.
Name one public servant that I accused of theft. I never made such a dangerous allegation but you are libeling me by stating such a falsehood against me that you fabricated in a tired attempt to defame my reputation.
I am against City Employees receiving a 75% pension after 30 years on the job. We have paid 21.16% in matching funds only to end up in a 61.4 million pension deficit hole. I am concerned about the city having to file a Chapter 9 reorganization due to the hole it has dug itself in. If you call this greed, be my guest. I never used such a word. Again, nothing but a fabrication on your part from your blaring horns.
3. Your constant pandering to the editor.
I rarely address the editor. I only address him when he comes on and says these childish attacks are escalating and most be stopped. I just like to remind him who starts them. Once again, I am not talking to you and you stick yourself in the middle with attacks. You have agreed to boycott me which I enjoyed so much and now you are attacking again. You apparently are upset that people love to debate me. You seem like a sicko who is simply jealous and now upset that your proposed boycott against me proved to be a massive failure....your own hypocrite self could not even honor it for a short week before you broke down and made a fool of yourself in front of all those you preached in front of.
4.Your constant berating of any one who disagrees with you on any subject.
Former WV Mom and I have had a very good debate on this thread. A very respectful debate. I don't agree with her. I am debating her because I don't agree with her and not because I agree with her. She is a very good debator but she does not see my point or agree with it. I don't see her point or agree with her. We pretty much agreed to disagree before you stuck your Noisy Nose in the middle. No one is berating her. She is not berating me. But in my opinion she is innocent and naive and you were able to influence her just a little. I always thought her judgment of personality traits was off just a little bit. She has minor temper tantruns where she annouces she will not debate me anymore, when your likes spew their propaganda and she falls for it, but a day later she is back debating. Unlike yourself, she is a very pleasant woman whom I respect very much even though I think she is overly trusting and naive.
5. Your advocacy of the beating of children.
I never advocated beating children and I never beat a child or an adult. I think parents who want to spank with their hands or belts should be allowed to do so when all else fails. I stated I was belted by my father. I never stated I belted my kids. I would have liked to have the option though while raising them.
Most parents that use belts on their kids use it more to scare the child in a pretentious way. They just want the child to respect his time-out. If the child wants to avoid the belt, he needs to return to his time-out. I did spank my children when they violated their 10 minute time-outs. What other options did I really have? I was not about to let them think they are the Boss of the House. I do not posses all the magical powers of Former WV Mom.
My kids are just fine. I have a daughter competing for National Championship in Jazz and Hip Hop this coming week in Myrtle Beach. I have a another child who qualifed for city time in all his strokes and will be competing for the Naperville City Championship this weekend in swimming. They both get very good grades in school. Without the spankings, I don't think they would have excelled as many times they wanted to skip their practices when they were young.
We all know Michael Jackson would not have excelled without his belt lashings...neither would Tiger Woods. Kids will not practice hard if they are not pushed. They need to be pushed and the belt should be a very last resort...but it should be allowed as a final option when all else fails. I have never had to use it and I hope I never have to.
City of Naperville firing the Former Fire Chief for mildly punching his 18 year old misbehaved son in the chest, does not send a good message to either parents or kids. Maybe the fire chief was trying to keep his son away from heroin. I saw a neighbor beat his adult son in public because his son wanted heroin. Heroin is no laughing matter. I would also probably beat my son up if he tried to buy heroin. After I knocked some sense in him and he came to his senses, I am sure he would realize I saved him from a 10 year jail sentence. Bloggers have to ask themselves would they rather see their kids spend long years in jail or beat them up till they came to their senses? Ask your kid what they would rather have if it ever got down to it.
You call this advocating of beating children. Sorry but I think you have loose screws and bearings upstairs. Maybe if your Dad took the belt out, you would not be acting like a spoiled Kindergarten Child on this blog site.
My opinions are known. People on this blog site clearly know what I stand for and believe in. You stand for nothing, Noisemaker but Noise. You are simply infamously known for your personal attacks. The Moderator asked you and your likes to stop behaving like Kindergarten Children. And you continue to come back and disobey the Moderator and act like a KGC. Don't you ever get tired of your acrobatics?
6. All make many ask what is wrong with you and what horrible things happened to you in your life to make you so angry and bitter and anti social.
I enjoy writing and blogging on political and tax issues. I enjoy being a Civilian Investigative Journalist for the Naperville Sun blog site. The former Host and the former Moderator made this calling to us and I thought it was an excellent calling. They explained the Naperville Sun had limited resources and needed our help.
I like to expose and fight high taxes which result from government waste. "This makes me angry, bitter and anti-social...lol." I pay over 60k in real estate taxes and I am trying to reduce my taxes by exposing how they are wasted. This to you is an indication that something horrible happened to me in my life. Nothing horrible happened to me in my life. I actually feel very fortunate that I have a great education with graduate degrees, have above average wealth, very good health and have 4 very bright children.
My kids are involved in swimming, soccer, tennis, weight lifting, water polo, jazz and hip hop all in just this one summer. I have a full time job and with my spouse who also works full time we try to run the kids around from event to event with the assistance of many car pools. Every one of these events has a social activity for the parents at the end of the season that I religiously attend. I am involved in more social activities than I can comfortably handle...and you call me anti-social.
I enjoy a drink with other parents and have been to the Tilted Kilt, Quigleys, Bar Louie, Charlie Cabanas and Jilly's in the last 30 days. That is about all the social I can handle....call me anti-social all you like because I am against higher taxes and government waste. Maybe your new definition of anti-social will catch on and every one will want to be anti-social and hopefully join me on the front steps of Naperville City Hall on April 15, 2010.
Like I said before, I enjoy blogging more than watching a baseball game. Watching a baseball game has no redeeming value. It brings nothing but temporary instant gratification. Who can remember anything about a regular season baseball game of 10 years ago? Therefore, in my humble opinion, it was a waste of time and money.
I don't watch movies. I believe in participating and being involved in life and not watching it go by you. Those who go to movies and baseball games have no life and are trying to live their lives and dreams through others. I suspect this is the case with Blogger Fed Up with His Own Noise as his life revolves around watching what others do while his life passes by him having accomplished NOTHING.NOTHING! ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
I think that you've discovered what many of us have also discovered over time. To quote war games, an old movie you may have seen: "A strange game. The only winning move is not to play."
Alas, you are tragically uninformed on taxes, my friend.
I don't have a lot of time right now (and I believe you don't have any casts on your typing fingers), but the following should suffice:
>Top 10% of earners paid 67.8% of all taxes in 2001
>Top 10% of earners paid 72.4% of all taxes in 2005.
----As you can see, they paid more as a percent and, I assure you, more in total dollars as a result of the alleged Bush cuts for "..only the rich"
>Lowest 60% of earners paid 3.3% of all taxes in 2001
>Lowest 60% of earners paid less than 1% of all taxes in 2005
----As you can see, the lowest earners paid less as a percent AND, again I assure you, less in total dollars under the Bush cuts.
The above info is directly from the non-partisan CBO.
Loved your post! Very good point about our attitudes towards change. It is true, just about all change in the workplace is negative. If it is not negative, then it is generally followed by a quantifier such as "We've made some changes, but don't worry, they're good ones!", so folks don't freak out in advance. I would say this is less true outside of the workplace, but it sure is inside.
I made special note of #5:
5. A change in our health care plan - I now have to pay 25% more in premiums.
This was an interesting thing for you to throw in, since these last posts have been about the new health care option. Kinda makes at least one of my points, doesn't it?
Of course big business will pass those costs on to us--that's what businesses do, whether it's taxes, fuel costs, increases in minimum wage, they'll pass as much of that cost on to consumers as they can. Is that a good enough reason not to do anything? Your health care premiums just went up another 25% and we haven't done anything yet.
Congrats on the new purchase. But you know, even if the capital gains tax had been 20%-27%, you still would have taken that money out if you had needed it, and you still would have bought that washer and dryer if you had needed it too. I'm glad you caught a break, but the capital gains and dividend tax cuts have benefited those in $1MM+ range the most, the jump is huge. Take a look:
You really have to look beyond blanket earning statements. Yes, the top 10% of earners will have paid more in taxes because they have more overall income to tax. But as a percentage of their individual income, many in the highest income range pay a smaller tax percentage on their income than their poorer counterparts. Like I suggested, take a few minutes and Google Warren Buffet on this. He's made some very public statements about the inequity of the tax structure as it's existed for the last 8 years. One in particular I remember was that he stated his secretary, who made around $30G/yr, paid a higher rate percentage-wise on her salary than he did on his billions.
I admit I'm far from an expert on the ins and outs of tax structures. But I do understand that Bush's and Reagan's "trickle down" economic theories were a way to change a progressive tax structure, which the U.S. and most countries have, into a more regressive one for those at the utmost top of the food chain, the theory being that if they were left with more money in their pockets they would spend it in such a way as to benefit the U.S. economy. Overall, this hasn't really panned out. The upper income class as seen their wealth grow in the last 8 years while the middle class, the supposed beneficiaries of all this "trickling", has stagnated. I think trickle down is not worth the price society pays for it. As we saw from the economic crisis last fall, only s*** rolls downhill (sorry, Chris, but it's better than using a $).
But I'm up for learning more. Post a link to where you're getting your info and I'll check it out.
By Anonymous on July 14, 2009 12:43 AM
BTW, we don't drink or allow our kids to drink. We don't smoke either and thankfully none of our kids smoke. So we have tried our best but have not always succeeded as you alleged to have in keeping losers away from our home and our kids.
By Citizen Investigative Journalist on July 24, 2009 7:43 AM
Former WV Mom and I have had a very good debate on this thread.
I enjoy a drink with other parents and have been to the Tilted Kilt, Quigleys, Bar Louie, Charlie Cabanas and Jilly's in the last 30 days.
CIJ admits to also being Anonymous. Interesting contradiction in the posts.
what the? on July 24, 2009 11:05 AM
Congrats on the new purchase. But you know, even if the capital gains tax had been 20%-27%, you still would have taken that money out if you had needed it, and you still would have bought that washer and dryer if you had needed it too.
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Precisely correct, however I would have netted LESS money if I pay a higher tax. (Don't mean to use caps - kinda snarky), but my point is that I personally will have more $$$ if I pay 15% instead of 20%? No? On my mutual fund transaction described originally I will pay (next yrs taxes) ~$600 in capital gains (15% rate). I would have had to pay $800, or $1080 if the rate was 20 - 27% so while it's not enough to pay off my mortgage it is MY money and I'm glad to have the extra $200-400 thank you very much. (again with the caps)
I read your link, and rather than get in the battle of "links" there are others who write about the real increase government receives when tax rates are actually lowered. I'm not an economist, but there is pretty solid evidence that lowering capital gains taxes has increased revenue for the Government.
The reason those in the $1MM have benefited the most is because they pay the most. When the capital gains went from 20% to 15% on long term investments the rate reduction was the same for everyone. Someone who makes a lot more than me will have a greater dollar amount in savings, but the percentage is the same.
I see articles and comments indicating that some "rich person" will save 10K in taxes due to W's tax cuts. (these # are all for discussion and not real). The person making this case then will say something along the lines that the "poor sap in the middle class" will only save $1000 in taxes due to W's tax cuts. The comparison is then drawn that the richest 1% benefits with a 10K reduction while the middle class guy only benefits 1K.
The Headline then reads: "That rascally W gave his buddies a 10K tax break while I only got 1K" - or some derivation of this.
What doesn't seem to get reported is that the rich person originally paid 100K in taxes and now is going to pay "only" 90K (10K savings), while us middle class guys who pay 10K in taxes and will now only pay $9000 (1K savings). The story is then reported (can anyone say bias?) that the "Rich People get a 10K tax cut, but the middle class only got 1K".
I used my 5 "changes" to my job function simply as an example of the kinds of changes i have had recently, not in an effort to bash the big O, or blame him for my health care premium. Although if Bush was previously blamed for $4 gallon gas prices I suppose given the fact that O is the president I may as well blame him?? After all what's fair is fair?
Yes, Thomas, I got your point, the one you described in your first paragraph. My point was that the w/d purchase was not totally dependent on the capital gains tax being 15%; if the tax had been 20-27%, you wouldn't be schlumping your dirty duds down to the local laundromat. You still would have bought the w/d, you just would have paid $200-400 more for it. I'm not saying $200-400 is nothing, I'm just making the point that the better off one is financially, the less these percentages actually have an impact on consumer behavior. That's what I meant by "I think they (the very well-off) can handle a small increase just fine". It's not going to have that much of an impact on their bottom line.
Your case about those who make more paying more is what I was saying to Anon above. I see the same type of media manipulation you described all the time. In fact, I've seen a similar example for the last two days. Both Fox and CNN have had "experts" (I think it was Carl Rove on Hannity) saying that Obama's health plan wasn't what Americans wanted because "polls" had indicated that up to 82% of Americans reported they were happy with their current health care and didn't see the need for a gov. option. What they don't say was that the poll obviously only counted people who had health insurance to begin with. The "poll" didn't include those who didn't have health insurance, because you can't be content with something you don't have. And the government option is specifically for those people who don't have any, who can't get or can't afford health insurance through the private market. So I switch the channel whenever I hear a talking head say this. It's misleading BS; not news but manipulative commentary, just like the Bush tax cuts example you mentioned above.
I know your 5 "changes" weren't there to O bash; I didn't see it as such. But it is interesting your health insurance premiums are going up yet another 25%; has O done anything in his 6 month reign to contribute directly to this? If anything, he's identified your insurance premium increases as a problem he wants to combat. And yet you seem unfazed by it. That increase just ate up that mutual fund capital gains you were enjoying, doesn't that irk you at all?
What the ? You can mock my typing skills while I mock your president. The fact for you is the Rasmussen poll today indicates the inexperienced one looking presidential but of course now has a favorability rating of 49% vs. a disapproval rating of 51%. You wouldn't suppose the fact that he has done NOTHING good for this nation since January except sink us into the largest deficit in history has anything to do with it do you? How ironic it is that the blue dog democrats are going to moderate this guy.
By Anonymous on July 14, 2009 12:43 AM
BTW, we don't drink or allow our kids to drink. We don't smoke either and thankfully none of our kids smoke. So we have tried our best but have not always succeeded as you alleged to have in keeping losers away from our home and our kids.
By Citizen Investigative Journalist on July 24, 2009 7:43 AM
Former WV Mom and I have had a very good debate on this thread.
I enjoy a drink with other parents and have been to the Tilted Kilt, Quigleys, Bar Louie, Charlie Cabanas and Jilly's in the last 30 days.
CIJ admits to also being Anonymous. Interesting contradiction in the posts.
No contradiction! I drink non-alcoholic beer, lots of coffee(about 10 cups a day) and sometimes diet coke at these places. Some of the adults drink and some don't. But none get drunk.
Before, I switched to non-alcohlic beer I averaged a beer a month....but never in the home. I think drinking in the presence of your kids while asking them not to drink is a fruitless exercise.
You have to practice what you preach.
Tilted Kilt, my favorite place, has some really awesome food for under 10 dollars. Blackfinn Saloon has has an awesome menu and atmosphere and I can't wait to check it out.
Not drinking beats getting a DUI and being able to drive. I need to drive....a lot. I never drank to get buzzed so I really don't miss drinking. Last night I had 2 White Teas and loved them.
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PS. I drive my kids and other kids to many activities. I would never drink and drive and endanger these kids. Never!
"And I managed to have a cold beer at the Tilted Kilt where a beer never looked so good."
Oh - Wait. You were just inhabiting a fictional character, this time, one who actually drinks beer, right?
Right.
Digging the credibility hole ever deeper, Sybil. Ever deeper.
Now you'll tell us it was a nonalcoholic beer. But it's ok, because... I was being a fictional character.
Oh, please.
Drinking non-alcoholic beer has grown much faster than alcholoic beer in the last 20 years. If a person drinks beer he or she could drink either kind and be drinking a cold beer.
Liquor and grocery stores now carry many varieties of non-alcholic beers. All the major brewers have their own non-alcoholic beer brands that they promote heavily as beers.
A big deal is really being made about nothing.
If you are drinking a diet pop with no calories or caffeine, you are still considered to be drinking a pop.
Another Saturday, 6:50 a.m. - my slumber is disturbed by the convoy of swim team parents driving past my house all honking furiously. What is wrong with these people?
It appears your Obama Derangement Syndrome is finally becoming delusional. An immediate intervention is needed to bring you back to reality!
First of all, I wasn't mocking your typing skills. I was mocking you.
Secondly, Barack Obama IS your president. As long as you're a U.S. citizen and he's the U.S. President, that makes him your president, like it or not. You can renounce your U.S. citizenship; that would get you off the hook. But that could also take all the fun out of your armed insurrection.
Thirdly, O has signed 11 pieces of legislation in the past 6 months in addition to your beloved ARRA, so let's see if any of those can be considered a good move for our One Nation under Glock:
Lily Ledbetter fair pay act, you know, the equal pay for equal work regardless of gender thing. But you're a guy, so that doesn't benefit YOU. Children's health insurance, nah, you don't care about other people's kids. Small business act, you don't own one. Helping families save their homes, we know from past blogs how into THAT you are. Volunteerism, no way, cuts into time on the firing range. Family smoking prevention, don't care about other people's families. Credit card disclosure, if they're stupid enough not to understand the fine print, that's their problem. Hey, here's one! The Weapons Systems Acquisition Reform Act! Awesome! Sounds right up your alley. Oh, wait, that isn't what I thought it was . . .
Well, bummer. Twelve acts of legislation and the only good it's doing is for women, children, families, small businesses and people interested in volunteering to make their country a better place. You're right, these things don't have anything to do with you. But fortunately, you're not the nation.
If you feel yourself slipping over the edge again, click here for a quick booster of reality orientation:
I have looked well beyond the blanket statements. You mention you are not an expert on the ins & outs of tax structure. Though not a pure “taxman”, I do have +25 years of working experience in the finance field, including the design & implementation of taxation strategies. I also perform research on these subjects, have testified in Senate subcommittees on them, had the opps to discuss personally the Laffer curve with Milton Friedman, presented variation strategies to both the SEC and the FASB, etc. I say this not to impress but to reinforce the thought that I am not coming at this subject from an anti-left view, but as one who has a decent grasp on the data.
I would heavily encourage you to look beyond the liberal hype, which is mostly what drives the comments we all read and hear on the Bush tax cuts and the Reagan tax cuts (Hey! Did you ever notice those same folks do NOT include the Kennedy tax cuts --- know why? He was not a Republican.)
I will try to address some of your issues in what I hope is a logical manner:
First, let’s be clear on individual taxes ---- we have a very progressive system in the United States right now. Contrary to popular hype, it has been made severely more progressive under Bush and his tax cuts that allegedly benefited only the rich.
As far as Buffet goes, I have researched Buffet’s dogma over well more than 8 years, and if you do the same you will come out a lot less impressed by him that you now may be. Given that most of his success came prior to SOX, and that he has harped for years about his poor secretary in Omaha, and his hypocritical stance on estate taxes [let us remember ---- he is giving basically all of his money to the Gates Foundation. So, all of our money is good enough to be taxed an umpteenth by the government, but his isn’t?], I would prefer to leave him out of our discussion.
To wit: Directly from the IRS Statistics of Income, the top 1% of earners paid 40% of all taxes. This is the highest rate of taxes paid by that group in over 40 years!
The impulse, which has been beaten upon and created by true liberal hype, is that the highest income earners pay a smaller percentage of their income than lesser successful earners (note my specific use of words here). I will outright say that this is a scandalous lie used by those who benefit from a fragmented society that fights among itself (i.e. our politicians).
When addressing the issue of federal income taxes, the rich pay more, period. Take a simple look at any federal tax table ----- clear as a bell. Some try to refer to tax dodges, but those who understand the Bush cuts (and the Reagan ones earlier) are well aware that these series of cuts eliminated many, if not most, of the legal tax dodges that once existed and catered usually to the very rich.
So that leaves us with a question: Why do they say these things and how can they get away with it?
Again, a simple answer: Those who push this devisive dogma of rich vs middle class (note here that you cannot use the word “poor” as the poor pay no taxes in the U.S. ---- currently about 50% of all earners pay ZERO federal income taxes) bundle ALL taxes paid by an earner to come up to their conclusion, which is then based on a percentage! I will add once more that it is impossible to spend a percentage!
So, in affect they take the federal income taxes paid, the state taxes paid, the FICA and medicare taxes paid, the city taxes paid, the county taxes paid (in many analyses, I have even seen sales taxes paid!) and use this resulting percentage of taxes paid to argue for more FEDERAL income taxes on certain individuals deemed to be “rich”.
This is clearly an example of your earlier comments on fudging stats and rolling them to favor an argument. Using this dishonest calculation to defend an even more distorted federal tax code rewards deviant behavior at the state, county, and city levels of government and disguises the issue of our quickly deteriorating Social Security and Medicare systems.
As far as trickle down goes, it is well-established that the Laffer curve works well in practice but has issues for some in theory. The fact that over 2/3s of all new jobs over the last 39 years has come from small businesses, the fact that the rich, using any real data, pay more taxes in total and as a percentage of total taxes, the fact that federal revenues grow whenever there is a tax cut that includes the top brackets (and conversely go down whenever there is a tax increase to the top brackets), all serve to support this.
Finally, I will say that there are many more millionaires now than there were 30 years ago (even taking inflation into account). [Note that “millionaire” designates wealth, by the way, and not yearly earnings]. The reasons are varied, yet the liberal hype tries to convince us it is all from the evils of Bush tax policies.
Let me add a few alternatives:
>The U.S. economy has the most fluidity in the world. though I am liberally rounding numbers here, about 30% of the earners in each level (poor, middle class, rich) change levels every 3 ½ years. Our mobility is further proof of the idea that the U.S. offers Opportunities for all to succeed.
>People made a lot of money on real estate and home values over the past 15 years (note they have also lost a lot, and I suspect the next data dump will show this)
>The tech boom of the 90s put enormous amounts of cash in people’s pockets.
>The lessening of taxes on the poor and middle classes (yes, I believe I have well-established that above) has provided more opps for those earners to do more with their money
I think the 7-10 year olders are the ones honking their parent's horns. They have to compete in the early morning.
The 10-14 year olders start at 12:30 pm at Nequa Valley and they don't honk their horns quite as much. I specifically don't when I drive my children.
You should be glad you do not live near Nequa Valley High School where the City Championships are being held this year.
I have to do some volunteer work at the meet for 4 hours but I will be excused to watch my kids race when their turns come up. This swim meet is the most anti-social event in the history of mankind. So I guess your bloggers may be right when they say I am anti-social. I will be off after that for more anti-social activities in Myrtle Beach. ( I will try to send you one post from there as promised as I am sure you will know from my IP number that I am not in my home and/or place of work.)
But seriously, there is no excuse to ever honk a horn except to avoid an accident.
I will try to INVESTIGATE who passed by your home at 6:50am and woke you up. Consider that my assigned duty. Blast them on the front page of your newspaper and hopefully they will never do it again....lol...
Citizen Investigative Journalist, you can always bring Diana back to fill in for you while on vacation. She seemed to enjoy spending her vacations doing research and beating up establishment types.
Fabulous post, Anon. Seriously, I welcome the information. It will take me awhile to go through all of this, but I will look into it. If i have questions as I go, I trust you'll be around on these blogs.
By Anonymous on July 25, 2009 12:54 PM
Citizen Investigative Journalist, you can always bring Diana back to fill in for you while on vacation. She seemed to enjoy spending her vacations doing research and beating up establishment types.
Speaking of Diana she was one of the best fictional characters I created. She was a very tough woman and did let the establishment have it.
I am in the process of creating a new character that will give Diana a run for her money.
At least we know who my characters and I are. We know what we stand for. We all have the same principles.
Who are you, Anonymous? The Forensic Accountant known as Experienced who is ashamed to come out of the closet after failing in performing a simple math computation.....or the guys who makes so much NOISE that he is almost deaf right now.....or the guy who loves his Keyboard.
You seem like a wimp in hiding. What are you trying to hide?
Have you ever tried to blog about a topic in your life?
By Anonymous on July 25, 2009 9:15 PM
The problem with creating multiple fictional characters is that it creates significant doubt about the validity of anything that creator says
Funny, almost everyone on this blog site is a fictional character including yourself.
Almost everyone on this blog site has used more than one handle and reincarnated themselves here and there.
Fictional characters do not create any doubt. What creates doubt is unreliable content. I have done my utmost to make sure my content is credible and reliable.
I also think it is very sad when a person has to discuss something that is a year old and has been rehashed over and over again.
Time to move forward. If you have a problem with my message, challenge it as Former WV Mom did. My handles are fictional and will always be fictional. I will continue to change my handles from time to time as I get bored with them rather easily. Sorry, but that is how I am.
Since my handle has nothing to do with my ego, I have no problem discarding it. Sometimes I change my handle to get peace for a few days so the focus can be on my message. It does work temporarily, but unfortunately because I have blogged for so long more than one person can figure out my writing style after a few posts.
If bloggers don't want me to change my handle, focus on my MESSAGE and I won't. The more you attack my handles the more I will change them. Your choice!
PS. Enjoy your time blogging while I am in Mrytle Beach. I will be leaving tomorrow morning to watch the Hip Hop and Jazz National Championships that my daughter is participating in and try to be as anti-social as humanly possible. I won't be here to hijack any threads. I won't be here debating anyone. Have a lot of fun by AGREEING with each other day and night.
I will find a way to send one or two posts so that the Moderator can track I am in Myrtle Beach. It is unfortunate to think bloggers think I make everything up because I use fictional monikers as everyone else does...albeit a few more in the olden days.
If X-Treme Dance of Naperville wins the National Championship for the 3rd straight year, I promise to report back as a dutiful Citizen Journalist should. We should know by the end of the week.
I will also make sure no dancers beep their horns when they pass by your home, Moderator Chris.
Speaking of Diana she was one of the best fictional characters I created. She was a very tough woman and did let the establishment have it.
Pretty telling, as almost every statement posted by 'Diana's' was a lie or factually incorrect. Not surprising at all that Sybil thinks this was his/her/its best work...
I have a question for the moderator and the group in general.
The same software this site uses is also used by the Sun Times blog itself. The major difference is, on the Sun Times version, it requires the person posting to create a login - that is, register with a valid email address and choose a nickname to be able to post. The Sun Times site seems to draw a lot of comments, so it doesn't appear to be a bar to use.
Given how much time and energy we all seem to spend dealing with the concepts of multiple personalities, and who is who, why can't we turn on the same facility here, on this site. I've never registered here, simply because I don't have to, though I am happily registered on other blog sites, and some of the issues that we see here simply never come up.
Please note that I'm not specifically talking about our most high profile multiple personality, but that is what started me thinking along these lines, I'll admit.
So, what say all of you? Is this something that we should encourage the moderator to do? I, for one, would very much like to see this happen. It wouldn't change my posting habits at all, and would allow for a at least a bit more accountability, while also allowing for some level of anonymity...
GJC
I would fully support the log in concept - though my guess is that anyone who is willing to spend the time to create dozens (or more) personae are probably more than likely to create any number of email addresses to support them. As it is quite easy (and free) to create any number of yahoo or g-mail or AOL addresses, it would be interesting to see how this goes. The hard part is to re-invent the oh so distinctive writing styles that some have.
There is a way around multiple yahoo/etc accounts. Require that legitimate email accounts from ISP's will be the only type accepted; IE- Comcast, AT&T, Etc.
I belong to a couple of forums that are set up this way and it virtually eliminates mults and spammers. If someone were still, insistent on using multiple names, the ISP's usually limit how many email accounts per customer, and if all else fails, Chris could still check the ISP # of a suspected mult and eliminate all but one user name.
I was watching the movie "Caddyshack" on my portable DVD in my "wigwam" the other night, and made an observation...Ted Knight played the judge in the movie and was a real tool...odd thing is, he looked and acted just like Dick Furstenau....odd
Anyway I am blogging from the Sheraton Hotel in Myrtle Beach where X-Treme Dance of Naperville is competing for a National Title in both Jazz and Hip Hop.
This battle for the championship started on Friday. Tuesday at 10am are the finals. They will be nationally broadcast live on Starpowertalent.com on the Web.
There are over 50 dancers from Naperville here and hundreds of family members to root them on. The auditorium is beautiful and massive with great visibility from all seats.
While I am no expert in the field of dancing and of course biased, I am willing to bet X-Treme Dance from Naperville grabs their 3rd National Title.
At least for those who may be interested in watching, it will be broadcast live. At least that is what my sources tell me which I believe are reliable.
The judges have reviewed over 700 dance routines so far to arrive at the few who qualify for the finals. I believe the dance routine that X-treme Dance thinks will win the championship for them is BXS which stands for Brittany Xtreme Spears.
I hope some of you get a chance to watch it. The talent of all the teams from across the country is really phenomenal. I have yet to see a single screw up or flaw in the 100 dance routines I personally watched. Only the teams that made it through regional finals made it here to Myrtle Beach.
PS. I am sending this post from Myrtle Beach since so many bloggers doubted I had a daughter that danced or that she would be competing with her team for a 3rd consecutive National Championship. And to refute claims that I am anti-social because I blog one hour a day. I missed the first half of my daughter's teams competition because I had to attend the Naperville City Championship for swimming for another child in which I was a volunteer. Yes, I do volunteer for events other than Tax Protests.
Blogging an hour a day instead of watching a boring 3 hours baseball game does not make you an outcast or anti-social. I even found some time to fight the waves in the Atlantic Ocean. They were ferocious today. They tossed me around like a Rag Doll and I finally came out with a mildly bleeding forehead after a combination of waves threw me on the bottom of the ocean where I think my forehead hit a rock, stone or big seashell. Anyway, it is so much fun to be anti-social and anti-active.
I hope everyone is having as good a time as I am in Myrtle Beach while being social and active.
Again the Web Site where it will be telecast live from is StarPowerTalent.com
Im sorry, but I dont care about the dance contest ect, if he/she/it wants to create their own website or own newspaper then great, but why do we need 1am updates from the biggest liar who is obsessed with this blog. Maybe everyone should start updating their status like on facebook or twitter. PS, if I was on vacation I sure as heck would not be on the Naperville Sun blogging, no offense...
By Anonymous on July 28, 2009 8:19 AM
Im sorry, but I dont care about the dance contest ect, if he/she/it wants to....... PS, if I was on vacation I sure as heck would not be on the Naperville Sun blogging, no offense.
If a Dance Team from Naperville is competing for a National Championship, it is as worthy of news coverage as a football team from Naperville competing for the State Title....if not more.
Dancers practice, believe it or not, harder than football players. They practice 5-10 hours a day for months to nail a routine to perfection. Sometimes up to 50 dancers have to perform the exact same moves in perfect syn for 5-10 minutes straight.
Just like football players, a few dancers make it to the pros and become future stars.
It seems like you are a self-centered person who can not see beyond your eyelashes.
You call others liars, while you are the liar with proof to prove it. If you want to call others liars, show some courage by at least using a handle that can identify you instead of being a wimp in hiding.
All you have to do is go to the Web Site Broadcast and watch the competition live. Many Napervillians, I am sure are proud of their sons and daughters who compete at a national level. Hundreds of Napervillians jumped on planes to support their sons, daughters, relatives and friends.
It seems to me you are a failure in life and with extremely low self esteem who is jealous of those who are more successful than you. Psychiatrists were created to deal with your sick type....to help you heal.
And since this is an Open Topic Thread, I can not think of anything wrong with promoting a Naperville Dance Team competing for a National Championship in Myrtle Beach, S. C.
I don't care much about the dance contest either but it is of import to some in town - no reason why it should not be mentioned here on an open topic thread.
HOWEVER - I do not see why Anonymous on July 28, 2009 2:28 PM - who I believe to be the person who identifies them selves as CIJ or BHO or Diane or any number of other identities - should call Anonymous on July 28, 2009 8:19 AM "a failure in life and with extremely low self esteem who is jealous of those who are more successful than you". That was simply uncalled for.
Just wanted to report to you that Extreme Dance of Naperville won the National Championship in Myrtle Beach once again for the 3rd consecutive year less than an hour ago.
Their Hip Hop song BXS(Brittany Xtreme Spears) beat out 700 other dance rountines including hip hop, jazz, ballet and whatever else for the top performance. It was 5 days of intense competition with the 12 finalists performing their dance routines the last day.
They not only won the Judges decisions, but they also got the most votes on the World Wide Web from the live broadcast out of the 700 dance routines. The competition was watched in many countries world wide especially in Europe where so many votes came from.
About 45 mostly Naperville teenagers performed in this BXS dance hip hop routine. They practiced for months 5-10 hours a day including weekends. I know that besides practicing they even had to jog 3 miles each day to have the stamina to perform such a lovely, intense and well coordinated dance that was about 10 mintues long.
Hundreds of Napervillians were there to cheer them on and exploded in pandemonium upon the annoucement they won the World Victory Trophy.
As a Citizen Journalist, I thought it was a newsworthy event to report to the local newspaper with a very small staff due to a budgetary crisis. If you feel it is a worthy news story to pass on to the news staff at the Sun, please feel free to notify them. Soon the Gold Trophy will be on display at Extreme Dance Studios in Naperville on Ogden Ave and I am sure the Naperville Sun could take a picture of it if it so chooses.
Anyway, I am very proud of the competitive spirit of the teenagers in this town. They really amaze me. It is really nice to hear about the great things our teenagers do instead of the occassional aberration of misbehavior here and there. As a parent, I am very proud of not only my daughter but all the boys and girls who gave it their all to win this very competitive National Championship.
Congratulations to all of them for a superb effort. It makes one proud to be a Napervillian.
Citizen Investigative Journalist on July 28, 2009 6:28 PM
It is really nice to hear about the great things our teenagers do instead of the occassional aberration of misbehavior here and there.
*********************
By Anonymous on July 20, 2009 6:09 PM
Mine and most kids in Naperville appeared to have come out of wombs.
No matter what most parents do and how well they raise their kids, in my opinion they experience REBELLION. It is a normal part of life. It is how kids eventually earn their freedom into adulthood. It is a ritual all teenagers and parents have to go through. We just have to keep tabs on this ritual so it does not have to get out of control as apparently occured with one of my children.
I gave 10 examples of people cussing from 1 thread when I was challenged by John Q. Public.
Yes, you did. Unfortunately for you, though, my challenge to you was to list Napergatians, not just any blogger who happened to have a beef with the police.
Stumbled on this Blog..how sad that one has to run to a computer while away at a dance competition to blog about the winners. didn't you have any friends or family to call..sad that you just have your computer friends.......I'm home sick, otherwise i wouldn't be wasting my time ..
By Allie on August 3, 2009 8:02 PM
Stumbled on this Blog..how sad that one has to run to a computer while away at a dance competition to blog about the winners. didn't you have any friends or family to call..sad that you just have your computer friends.......I'm home sick, otherwise i wouldn't be wasting my time ..
Between our rooms at the Sheraton Hotel and the Dance Auditorium in the same hotel is a lobby full of computers.
If I am proud of the accomplishments of 50 dancers from Naperville who just won a National Championship and want to get them some recognition in the local newspaper, I suddenly only have computer friends. Your comment is very funny if not borderline insane. I was not blogging to tell computer friends. I was blogging to tip the Naperville Sun to a story I thought deserved some coverage. The former Moderator and Host asked us to be Citizen Journalists and I was doing exactly that.
I think I blogged two times while on a one week vaction. That took about 10 minutes. I don't have any regrets. The only regret I have is that the Naperville Sun chose not to look into the story or publish anything about it.
These kids have no interest in personal recognition. The owners of the studio and instructors have no interest in personal recognition. Their only interest was in competing and winning. However, I personally felt they deserved some team recognition and tried to give them some. I thought I was being very unselfish to take 10 minutes out of my vacation time to tip the Sun about this story that involves Napervillians. I thought the residents would be proud to know that a local Dance Studio won a National Championship after 5 days of competition and 700 dance performances. Yes, they won the top prize in all categories. They earned the World Victory Trophy which I believe is now in their Naperville Studio.
Basically, you feel blogging is wasting your time and you would not be doing so if you were not homesick. That is OK by me.
I feel blogging is very educational and enlightening. It helps you grow, learn from others and mature further. In some cases you can bring change through blogging. You can invite people to a tax protest and some actually show up.
Others would rather watch 3 hour baseball games each day. What long term value does that really have? Can anyone remember any regular season game of the Cubs or White Sox that took place on August 3, 1999? Can anyone even tell me who they played and what the score was? Of course not. That is my point. Watching baseball is a waste of time except for some instant emotional gratification you may get when the game is over if your team wins. I would rather blog.
As far as relatives and friends, we called some who could not make the trip and gave them the good news. Many relatives and friends were also there to watch the competition and cheer on the team.
And all the parents had a huge party for the kids at the Breaker Hotel right on the beach after they won their National Championship. When you are involved in such activities you become very close friends with other parents since you have similar interests.
I have a very good life. I am surprised so many bloggers are worried about my personal life because I enjoy blogging. I think people need to get a life of their own and stop worrying about other peoples' lives.
One reason I blogged twice while on vacation is because some bloggers thought I was fabricating the fact that I had a daughter who was a dancer and competing for a national championship. I promised these suspecting bloggers that I would send a post from South Carolina and I did exactly that hoping it would have a unique address that the moderator could trace to Myrtle Beach.
End of story. Let us not maker is bigger than it is.
PS. It is very sad that you are home sick and you have no visitors checking on you. All you can do is blog. How so sad that no one cares to visit you while you are sick. Where are your friends? Where is your family in your hour of sickness and need? I am so very sorry for you.
This is in response to MHB's August 3 6:43 PM post on the What sort of behavior drives you nuts topic.
MHB,
Your daughter is giving you a B.S. excuse for her marijuana use, and you seem to be buying into if to the point of looking for ways for her to obtain it legally in other states, even though it remains illegal in Illinois. That is not exactly zero tolerance, no matter what you say. There are reportedly specific conditions, such as glaucoma and some kinds of cancer, for which cannabis seems to be an effective drug. I'm pretty certain, though, that the kind of pain your daughter is experiencing is not usually treated with a marijuana prescription, at least not by a responsible doctor, and ought to be treatable with standard pain relievers, whether prescription or over-the-counter. Of course, I am not an orthopedist or any other kind of physician, but I doubt your daughter is either, and maybe she should go consult an actual M.D. rather than embarking on a program of self-medication with illegal substances. If marijuana truly is the only thing that brings relief from her pain, then the prudent course of action for both you and your daughter is for her to cease the activity that causes that pain.
BTW, again, marijuana still is illegal in Illinois, even for medicinal purposes, so if Edwards is prescribing it to some patients, they are doing so in violation of the law. Moreover, I'm pretty sure you and/or your daughter will be in violation of Federal law if you transport marijuana from a state that has a medicinal marijuana law to any other state. I also doubt that if your daughter is caught in possession of marijuana that the NPD is going to let her off the hook because she has an invalid (in Illinois) prescription from an out-of-state doctor. For that matter, if the NPD has reason to suspect you have marijuana in your house, you could be held liable for it. I don't think I need to remind you that the "my daughter did it" excuse did not work for the Napergate Man.
I checked with my sources at Edward's Hospital and they do prescribe marijuana to certain patients. The marijuana at the pharmacy in the hospital is under the prescription name "Merimol." It is legal and it works according to my sources to help with pain. According to my sources Ibuprofen does not work with all patients and some of the stronger pain killers can be addicting. Thus "Merimol" appears to be a new option that is not addicting.
I do not think Edward's Hospital would ever do anything illegal. I once met CEO Pamela Davis in her office and she seemed as straight as an arrow. Not the kind of person that would engage in anything illegal or cover up something.
I also heard from sources on the South Side of Naperville that the suicide victim of July 24 had attended Nequaa Valley High School. Apparently an e-mail is circulating to parents of kids in that school....I think by the school but I am not 100% sure as my cell phone connection was very bad. I think if we had more bloggers on this site, news could be confirmed more easily.
I guess if all else fails, doctors in Illinois are allowed to prescribe marijuana under the prescription name "Merimol." Like I said I am against anything illegal....especially drugs. But if marijuana can be obtained legally through a doctor's prescription as my sources tell me, and it is the only thing that works, then why would I be against it.
If you have to take large dozes of Ibuprofen over long periods of time my understanding is your liver and kidney will be severely impacted. So why not take "Merimol" and be safe.
If you have a rebellious kid, you have to let her have something. If you are too strict as I tend to be, there are sometimes serious consequences. My kid is showing good signs that the rebellion is almost over and maturity is finaly setting in. This is really a very good feeling for any parent as you feel your kids is out of harm's way. Maybe this "legal marijuana" she is demanding is the olive branch that will bring a full understanding between us. In some ways it is a compromise. She gets her marijuana without breaking the law. We are both happy. I don't see why you have a problem, Mr. John Q. Public.
If the police arrest me for buying marijuana legally, I will sue them just as the Napergate Man sued them. And I will win just as the Napergate Man won. Knowing the NPD, I would not be surprised if they did arrest me. After all, they arrested the Napergate Man for running a perfectly legal sting operation and cost the taxpayers 10 million dollars. Let us hope they are wiser and not dumber after they made that 10 million dollar mistake.
Despite a budget of $5 million tax payer dollars, the Naperville Park District's plans for the renovation of the Centennial Beach Bathhouse do not include an elevator for disabled citizens. The board feels that the long steep sidewalk from the parking lot down to the beach is adequate for the needs of residents with limited mobility.
So I've challenged the board members to take the 'Centennial Beach Accessibility Challenge'. Meet me at the site and see if you can climb into a manual wheelchair and wheel yourself from the parking lot, up, up, up to the bathhouse and then down, down, down to the pool. If you can make the round trip without overexertion then you can decide against the elevator in good conscience. We'll videotape the experience so that the public can witness how easy it was for you to make that trek.
So far, none of the board members have accepted my challenge. So I ask all Napervillians to sign this petition urging the board to provide an elevator or lift as part of the bathhouse renovation.
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/centennial-beach-bathhouse-elevator
Wayne Cummings
Naperville
PS. I got this reply to the challenge from Mr Shutes, the park district's Director of Planning:
"Unfortunately I'm unable to participate in the 'challenge' due to concerns related to possible injury and worker compensation claims."
I guess that confirms that the so-called 'accessible' route from the parking lot to the pool is a dangerous one -- too dangerous for park district staff to consider trying it out for themselves!
So why are they digging in their heals against including an elevator or lift in the bathhouse renovation project? Please help by signing the petition (see the web link above).
Speaking of the Park District:
There is a park by my house that had an existing sign (the newer design that was rolled out a few years ago). Well, the Park District ripped it out of the ground and replaced it with a new sign (older / original design) a few feet away. The ground has yet to be repaired, but why did they have to spend $ and replace a good sign with a new sign?
Mr. Cummings
Your complaint should be filed with the Department of Human Rights on the basis of Public Accomodation discrimination to the disabled. Go here: http://www.state.il.us/dhr/Forms/CIS_Pa.PDF
HAHAHA, I love the Centennial Beach challenge. What a great idea. Not surprising no one wants to participate, it's just like the people who have challenged the city councilmen to try biking to the train station when we had the topic about Naperville's hilarious public transportation and 10 year wait for parking passes to park in a microscopic lot compared to the amount of commuter traffic the Metra stations see.
I'd pay good money to see the park district board struggle to get up the ramps in a wheel chair just like I'd pay to watch the city council members ride to the Metra station on a miserable snowy morning. Charging admission to these events could not only potentially generate tons of money for charity as residents line up to watch city officials make fools of themselves, but maybe something would actually get done about the handicapped ramps and Metra parking if they experienced it first hand.
Something tells me both the city council and park district board will never run out of excuses as to why they can't participate.
Ron,
Saving money doesn't appear to be at the top of the park district's to-do list. At the park near my home (Arrowhead), they are tearing down the swings and play area and building an entirely new one. That play area was just expanded with new equipment a couple of years ago. What a waste!
I'm not aware of anyone in the neighborhood who was asking for changes at Arrowhead. Why is money being spent on it? The old play area was nicely nestled in some trees with shaded areas. The new one is out in the sun for all to bake. Was public input requested on the redesign? Not that I'm aware of.
And how can it possibly cost $5 million to renovate the bathhouse at Centennial Beach. You could raze the site and start over for a lot less than that. The park district admits that the bathhouse is lightly used and will continue to be lightly used even after the renovations.
The beach needs a few individual restrooms and change rooms, yes. But communal showers and locker rooms are a 19th century idea. People just don't use them anymore. So why are we refurbishing something that the district admits will be little used??
The park district appears to have more money than it knows what to do with and it's spending the money on projects that are not needed.
Don't you know that the government is exempt from ADA laws on their property? I went to a government office in my wheelchair and complained about the inaccessibility only to be told it wasn't their problem. As usual, the government demands more out of citizens than it does itself.
Dear Anonymous,
You are quite right that I -- or any disabled person -- could file a complaint with any of the following bodies:
- The Illinois Human Rights Commission
- The Attorney General of the State of Illinois
- The US Department of Justice
for violations of:- Illinois Environmental Barriers Act (410 ILCS 25/1 et seq.)
- American's with Disabilities Act of 1990 (US Title 42, Section 126)
or by filing my own lawsuit against the park district in state or federal court.But I would rather not do that.
Any of these methods are slow and costly. They're not costly to me because when I win the case (and it's a slam dunk), the district pays my legal fees. But between paying for my legal fees and the district's own legal fees, it gets expensive to the taxpayer (which is me and you both).
Meanwhile they go ahead with the beach renovations without the elevator or lift and then have to retrofit one anyway after they lose the case. That costs the taxpayer a lot more than if they just designed the elevator in the project at the beginning.
So in the interest of my tax dollars and yours, I'd prefer that public pressure persuade the district to do the right thing at the right time (now). That's why it is so important for everyone to sign the petition here
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/centennial-beach-bathhouse-elevator#signatures
You can sign the petition anonymously if you are not comfortable using your name (but I think using names is more effective if you can do it).
Ken,
Whoever the government official is who told you that is dead wrong. There's an entire section of the ADA that applies specifically to Federal, State, and local government units. Unless your complaint was about some 'back office' area, not normally accessed by the public, the ADA certainly applies.
ADA as amended in 2008
SUBCHAPTER II - PUBLIC SERVICES
Part A - Prohibition Against Discrimination and Other Generally Applicable Provisions
Sec. 12131. Definitions
As used in this subchapter:
(1) Public entity
The term "public entity" means
(A) any State or local government;
(B) any department, agency, special purpose district, or other instrumentality of a State or States or local government; and
(C) the National Railroad Passenger Corporation, and any commuter authority (as defined in section 24102(4) of title 49).
(2) Qualified individual with a disability
The term "qualified individual with a disability" means an individual with a disability who, with or without reasonable modifications to rules, policies, or practices, the removal of architectural, communication, or transportation barriers, or the provision of auxiliary aids and services, meets the essential eligibility requirements for the receipt of services or the participation in programs or activities provided by a public entity.
Sec. 12132. Discrimination
Subject to the provisions of this subchapter, no qualified individual with a disability shall, by reason of such disability, be excluded from participation in or be denied the benefits of services, programs, or activities of a public entity, or be subjected to discrimination by any such entity.
Well, Wayne, that was the attitude I got from the government official. He was quite mad at me because I had my wheelchair behind his desk and could see his computer screen. I told him it wasn't my problem as his office, which was not a back office, but one used to talk to the public, was not handicapped accessible. That is when he responded that it wasn't his problem either. As you said, I could have made a court case out of it, but at that point in my life, that was the last thing on my mind.
napergate, overtime, napergate, overtime, napergate, police discretion......
Ghost of Christmas future?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/07/10/MNT6189U0U.DTL
Tiburon may install license plate cameras
Your presence has been noted.
The posh and picturesque town that juts into San Francisco Bay is poised to do something unprecedented: use cameras to record the license plate number of every vehicle that crosses city limits.
Some residents describe the plan as a commonsense way to thwart thieves, most of whom come from out of town. Others see an electronic border gate and worry that the project will only reinforce Tiburon's image of exclusivity and snootiness.
I can't recall anyone in a wheelchair at Centennial in 20+ years.
Could this be common sense triumphs over activism?
The last place I would want to be if I were in a wheelchair (which I have been in) is near water.
The ramp exists, if there is no friend or family member, I am sure a pool employee or passerby would be willing to help someone with the ramp if assistance were requested.
Do we also need to spend $100K on a lift for the very shallow end of the pool and personal swimming assistants?
The recent work on the Riverwalk added a wheelchair ramp next to the fountain on Main Street. IMHO going down next to the river in a wheel chair would be an act bravado bordering on suicide for someone in a wheel chair.
Anonymous,
Sir you are entitled to your opinion. I would only ask that you not subject the disabled community to your own personal fears.
I'm sorry that you were afraid of water when you used a wheelchair, but does that mean the rest of us should be? In fact, physical therapy in a swimming pool is a terrific benefit to many disabled people. In fact, Centennial beach already has a chair lift to lower disabled persons down into the water from the edge of the pool. It's just difficult to get to that lift because of the 100+ foot long ramp.
One of the 50 states declared that they didn't need a lift to the courthouse because they would send a guard down the stairs to pull the person out of the wheelchair and carry him up the stairs. That idea was struck down in federal court. What you suggest in terms of getting help from passerbys at Centennial Beach is no different.
How, exactly, would a passerby 'help' a person using a walker navigate that 100+ foot long ramp at the beach? Carry them? Remember, it's not just about wheelchair users. People who use walkers and canes -- or use no assistive device at all, but have difficulty walking long distances -- are affected.
Is it too much to ask for the park district to spend maybe 1 or 2 percent of it's $5,000,000 budget for a lift so that disabled folks don't have to hope and pray that someone will help them down the ramp (and equally hope that the Good Samaritan doesn't accidentally injure either party in the process)
You seem to begrudge the fact that there is now a ramp to the lower level of the riverwalk. The ADA was signed into law 19 years ago and we just now have a single ramp to the lower level of the riverwalk? Whoa, slow down there. Those crazy, suicidal, disabled people ought not to get so close to the water. Oh, the bravado! Don't they know they could drown?
You have access to the entire lower level of the riverwalk with dozens of points at which you can get on and off the lower level. The disabled have access to only one section of the lower level of the riverwalk via only one ramp, yet you are put upon, sir?
Common sense over activism? I think in the case of the bathhouse lift, activism is common sense.
By Mr stupid on July 10, 2009 8:40 PM
napergate, overtime, napergate, overtime, napergate, police discretion......
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Stupid,
I don't know what sounds stupider....your moniker or your comments.
JFYI, I capitalized your last name for you.
While not in a wheel chair, I do know others who are. Most are very able to control their chairs on ramps, etc. But it can be exhausting at times. So going down near the river is feasible. It does not matter whether anyone in a wheelchair has been seen at the Beach in 20+ years. (Maybe it's because it's not very accessible for them?) The point is that it is their right and the law for the beach to be accessible to them. The argument lies in what constitutes accessibility. Obviously the park district feels that the ramp meets the qualifications. Mr. Cummings does not. He is right that in the grand scheme of the overall cost, the addition of an elevator is not a huge addition.
Swimming is excellent therapy for people of limited mobility, those with arthritis (who also might find the steep ramp difficult), and others with a variety of physical needs. I personally would love to see better access for them.
Anyone want to comment on Omnia Group? Was anyone at their public meeting a week or so ago?
In case you missed it, the Kennedys wrapped their speech writers and political machine around candidate Obama early on, and endorsed him over Hilary.
IMHO Ted Kennedy {the second most liberal Senator} and the rest of the family pull the strings on Pres Obama {the first most liberal Senator}. Same socialist agenda, new face.
Are the Kennedys endorsing him for American Pope?
The Democrats can't win without the NE Catholic vote, this has been true since FDR.
The below quote IMHO represents the triumph of the brainwashing in the Public Schools and the destruction of the Catholic Schools by government at all levels.
Kennedy's article:
"When Obama meets the pope tomorrow, they'll politely disagree about reproductive freedoms (abortion) and homosexuality (gay marriage), but Catholics back home won't care, because they know Obama's on their side. In fact, Obama's agenda is closer to their views than even the pope's."
http://www.newsweek.com/id/205961
By Kathleen Kennedy Townsend
Without a Doubt
"Why Barack Obama represents American Catholics better than the pope does"
Here goes....
Like President Trueman's daughter screeching at DAR Constitution Hall, are we going to be treated to someone on City Council's relative bleating on stage at the City owned (that's us the taxpayers) theater that Omnia is "giving to the city"?
I recommend that we pipe in the music from the Carillon that the was forced on the taxpayers at the tune of $5 million to build and god knows how much to keep.
I can't wait for the gang rap concerts after the public access lawsuits are completed.
What the residents of Naperville need at the train station is more parking; and, if we want to go upscale a covered station so you can get on the train and into the buses without getting rained on.
Parking combined with upper floor office and some ground floor retail and professional office spaces would be a better use of the property. Unlike other city parking projects, spaces at the train station can be rented at break even or a profit. Like a mall, a management group can lease the office and retail from the city and re-let the spaces.
Besides, the private sector North Central College just built their performing arts center. Why should the taxpayers get stuck with a public one that will probably be another financial sink hole?
California is leading the way to National Bankruptcy, the FEDs are goose stepping closely behind and Naperville wants to join the parade?
If it does get built, the city should be sure to include a soup kitchen so we can get some use out of it if we continue on the same path.
On the political side, the local politicians can ladle out the bean and water soup and moldy bread to our families after an hour of waiting in line.
The private sector unemployment rate is nearing 15-17%.
Housing and probably the economy will ratchet down again in Q3 and Q4 as the next waves of foreclosure hit the adjustable and now prime mortgage markets.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
By AC on July 12, 2009 9:37 AM
Anyone want to comment on Omnia Group? Was anyone at their public meeting a week or so ago?
Mr. Cummings petition has 13 signatures, so apparently not many people are interested in his cause.
AC
The Homeowner Associations near the proposed Omnia site published a detailed rebuttal to their proposal, you can read it here; http://wow.lowtechnet.com/echo/positions.
They also have an birds eye view flyover animation of the whole complex you can download here; http://www.lowtechnet.com/omnia
If the city council approves Omnia then it will be proof positive they have lost their minds. The Tribune and Daily Herald both have had articles of a performing arts center in Hoffman Estates that the city is going to have to bail out, (own) just like the one in Arlington Heights a couple of years ago. These things get built, last a few years, run out of money, and the town has to bail it out cause its too big and important to fail.
No thanks, Naperville needs to take a pass on this gift.
Does anyone know how our fine, highly trained Naperville Police Department can bring 15 Felony Sex Charges against an Argentinian soccer coach and for the man to be found innocent of all 15 felony sex charges in a Will County Courtroom?
Expect a lawsuit from this gentleman very shortly that will bite heavily into our taxpayer funds.
I hope we settle quickly and not after expending millions of dollars to outside law firms defending our mistake. Hopefully, someone will be held accountable for bringing so many apparently false charges agaisnt an innocent man.
Anon:
"IMHO Ted Kennedy {the second most liberal Senator} and the rest of the family pull the strings on Pres Obama."
What "rest of the family"? The only Kennedy who has any political clout, Ted, has clout simply because he's been around so long, and even he has been too ill recently to wield much influence. Everyone else has long passed--John Jr., Bobby, JFK, Jackie--or is politically irrelevant--Caroline and various cousins, or in jail. What remains of the Kennedy family isn't politically connected enough to pull anyone's strings. In case you haven't noticed, Gov. S. of California can't get the bail out he wants from Obama, and he's married to a Kennedy!
So find a better conspiracy theory. This one wasn't worth a post.
In need of cash to save their Tall Grass home from foreclosure, the poor victim in this case sees the families of the gymnastic coach (Cardomone) score big a couple of years ago when they cooked up a scam against him, ultimately getting him in prison on some pretty flimsy evidence and scoring big in a lawsuit against his business, its insurer and others. (yes, my opinion) In this recent case, our victims decide to do the same thing with a twist. They are not joined by other victims. This is their own score and they share with no one. (Remember her mother noticed some unusually long hugs) Then for whatever reason, you are not a very convicing victim or mother to a jury and the criminal case falls apart. Worse yet, your future civil target is actually found not guilty in the criminal trial. Now your civil suit is history and what is left? The police are blamed by the uninformed. I will remind the 7/12/09 4:52pm poster that the coach in this case was also indicted by a grand jury. No, I would not be in a hurry to settle this case.
Anonymous,
An indictment by a grand jury means nothing. The joke amongst most prosecutors is they can get any grand jury to indict a ham sandwich if they want.
Longer than normal hugs don't constitute a sexual predator. Maybe in Argentina a 2 second hug is normal while in Naperville a 1 second hug is normal. Maybe a girl goalie is crying after letting a goal in and needs to be comforted for more than one second. How many young kids do you see crying in sports these days? Should we not hug them or only hug them with a stop watch in our hands?
This kind of evidence to be brought by any police agency or states attorney is shameful. It is disgusting.
I suspect the Naperville Police Dept. will be shelling out millions of dollars at your expense and my expense.
The bottom line is the jury who heard all the evidence has spoken and made a decision. There decision is final and not even appealable. We have barely paid for the Furstenau Case and no we have a new case right in our face. Dejavu!
When's the next parade in downtown Naperville? The back of my hand has healed, and I'm bored.
What,
The Obama nationalization of health care plan, is the Kennedy plan; written by Kennedy's staff.
I hope the rubber-stamp-legislature at a minimum goes through the motions and bothers to reads it before they vote to approve it (grabbing control of another 15% of the economy).
It is basically the same nationalization ideology Kennedy has been pushing since before Obama went to Harvard. Ted's alma mater.
Hope you don't develop any serious illness and are over 50. You'll be sent home to die with the words "you've had a good life". I know people this was done to in their "free medical care" countries.
..................
By what the? on July 12, 2009 9:59 PM
"What remains of the Kennedy family isn't politically connected enough to pull anyone's strings."
The bottom line is the jury who heard all the evidence has spoken and made a decision. There decision is final and not even appealable.
it's a shame that this simple statement can't be applied to all Defendants regardless of race, religion or gender. Some feel as though even though they were not there in the courtroom, they some how know what the outcome should have been and the jury got it all wrong.
If you have teenagers who want to bring a large group of kids over to your home or even basement, do not allow them.
Every time our kids have brought friends over, something of value disappeared. Amongst the most common things to disappear are cell phones, a Blackberry 11 days old valued at 567 dollars, and a small lap top.
Even if you allow your kid to go to a party drinking, there is a very good chance he or she will be stripped of his or her cell phone. One of our teenagers had their cell phone stolen 4 times. The last time it was stolen we had a good clue who stole it and arranged for a friend to "steal" it back from his car when it was unlocked. Of course, he denied taking it even though it was found in his car two days later missing the sym card. I guess some of these kids throw away the sym card immediately after stealing a cell phone thinking the police may chase them and locate them.
It has been agonizing raising teenagers. One would never think that so many teenagers in Naperville that attend Naperville Central and Naperville North could be thieves. I never would have imagined that when I moved to Naperville.
Grab your kids early and lecture them before they have 4 cell phones stolen. Buy them clothes with pockets and tell them to keep their cell phones in their pockets. Laying a cell phone down on a table or chair while you use the bathroom is encouraging someone at a get together or party to steal it.
Yes, we have tried to supervise kids when our kids had them over. It is not easy. Only God knows what they take when they go out to smoke their disgusting cigs. Only God knows what they steal through the basement windows. We even have alarm bars on our basement windows that they deactivate.
And if you have a cell phone stolen, don't bother calling the cell phone company or police to trace and locate it. They simply won't. I am not sure why they don't want to take criminals off the streets even though they have the ability. Or maybe police know the kids throw the sym card away and it is a useless endeavor. (I am sure Drew Peterson threw the sym card right where he wanted police to look for Stacy's body.)
Sometimes throwing these petty thieves in jail for a month when they are young, means we don't have to throw them in jail for 10 years when they are adults and become master thieves. I don't see any other solutions than jaling them for a while.
Anon:
"The Obama nationalization of health care plan, is the Kennedy plan; written by Kennedy's staff."
Yes, the Kennedy plan was written by Kennedy's staff. Who else would write it?
And of course the two plans are very similar. Same party, same ideology. Obama's plan also reflects lessons learned from the Clinton administration's attempt to reform health care. Does that mean the Clinton family is pulling Obama's strings too?
"It is basically the same nationalization ideology Kennedy has been pushing since before Obama went to Harvard. Ted's alma mater."
And Harvard is George W. Bush's alma mater also. What is your point? Does this mean the Bush family is pulling Obama's strings?
As I've said before, these type of simple associations work well at stirring up the conservative rabble who don't know any better. I do. You'll have to dig deeper than this to support a conspiracy theory here.
For the few who think taxes are low in Naperville, please reveiw the data on the best place to live in 2009 by CNN/Money Magazine that is just out.
Estimated property taxes on a $325,000 home is $1,590. In Naperville estimated property taxes on a $325,00 home would be $6,500. Almost a $5000 dollar difference. Does anyone still believe our City Officials are not wasteful or our hard earned tax dollars?
And even with our very high taxes we still had an 11.5 million budget deficit and a 61.4 million pension deficit. Amazing!
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
1. Louisville, CO
Courtesy: City of Louisville
Top 100 rank: 1
Population: 18,800
Typical single-family house: $325,000
Estimated property taxes: $1,590
Unemployment rate: 6.0% (county)
Fun fact: Rail service to Boulder and Denver is scheduled to begin in 2017.
Pluses: Hiking, biking, golfing, skiing…
Minuses: No major negatives (That’s why it’s No. 1!)
Some towns nestled along the Rockies are full of pretentious eco-hipsters. Not Louisville. Ice cream shops dot the historic downtown. Families grab burgers at the cozy Waterloo Café. A Friday-night street fair, with a beer garden, live music, and games for the kids, runs all summer. No wonder this down-to-earth town has appeared high on Money's Best Places list before--and on many others.
It's also weathering the economic downturn well. Robust industries in the area, such as high tech, energy, and health care, make county unemployment among the lowest in the state.
But the top reason residents give for moving here? The great outdoors. Louisville is laced with nearly 30 miles of trails, Rocky Mountain National Park is less than an hour away, and eight world-class ski resorts are within two hours. The town's schools are highly rated as well.
Add in dry, clear weather, little crime, good health care, and low taxes, and Louisville is pretty tough to beat.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
City Officials believe the mountains give Colorado cities like Louisville an edge over Naperville. While that may be true, if I were a Naperville City Official, I would also compare the respective taxes in each city and see another blaring EDGE. While we can not do anything about the former, we can certainly do something about the latter and maybe one day be number one again.
And if we are determined to waste taxpayer money, I would like to suggest building a man made MOUNTAIN.
P.S. to Anon: Almost forgot the best part:
"Hope you don't develop any serious illness and are over 50. You'll be sent home to die with the words "you've had a good life". I know people this was done to in their "free medical care" countries."
Sure, we can tell how desperate people in Canada are to escape their health care system by the droves of Canadians that come across the U.S. border to use our health care.
This was sarcasm, in case you missed it. I've heard that conservatives have lost so much of their sense of humor that they can't tell when someone is making fun of them.
If what you believe were true, then Americans wouldn't be poking fun at "Hook a Cinook", Americans who marry Canadians to get the health care and prescriptions they can't afford in their own country.
If you can't afford your property taxes, move.
How can you compare a city of 18,800 with a city of 135,000?
TO: No Omnia No Way
Thank you for the information. My parents attended the public meeting and told us about it. I have been following it in the paper over the months and wrote in our letter of disapproval to the council.
My parents did catch the article about Hoffman Estates and forwarded it to the council as well. They also saved it in case this ever goes to public debate with the council. This project is such "pie in the sky", I cannot believe it would ever get that far.
AC
By Anonymous on July 13, 2009 1:35 PM:
Louisville, KY has a population of 713,877 people.....
The argument still holds true that it is difficult to directly compare the two....
:~)
Don't forget one big drawback of Louisville CO that I don't see mentioned. At over 5300 feet above sea level, they have snow. Lots of it. Up to 9 months out of the year. That's the natural resource that fuels the Colorado ski industry. Just something to keep in mind.
A city of 18,800 needs proportional services to a city of 143,000 so their real estate taxes PER home can be compared very fairly.
Concerned about my tax dollars and crooked Trustee.
http://www.stopspitzzeri.com/
To the above who wrote as Advice to parents of teenagers
Having raised two teenagers who are now 19 and 21, I would have to question your kids' choices of friends. At this point we are going on 8 years of our home being a regular hangout for our kids and their friends. We purposely finished our basement before the kids hit high school, so that our home would be the hangout. The kids who are here are a mixture of Aurora and Naperville teens who went to Waubonsie Valley. We have never had an issue with anything being stolen from our home. Supervision was never an issue. Every kids who came over always made it a point to say hello to my husband or me before they headed to the basement. We kept all of the pop in the basement fridge and popped down there occasionally for things. It definitely wasn't hard to supervise them. Of course they were pretty good kids anyway and obviously did not need a high level of supervision. Even on the 6 separate occasions when we had 60 cross country runners eating pasta at our house the night before a meet (or having breakfast after an early morning summer run), nothing was stolen and nothing was damaged. They all knew smoking was not allowed on our property and also knew we had no tolerance for underage drinking. But then our kids don't have any tolerance for any of that either. Never had an issue with either of those things. The kids were loud at times, a bit rowdy or obnoxious at times, but never did anything that caused a problem or could be construed as illegal.
So maybe you should be looking at the choices your kids are making in friends? If those are the friends they are choosing, and those are the things that are happening when they hang out with them, then they need to make some changes in friends.
You are making a broad assumption that teenagers should not be allowed to hang out in groups and that when they do, bad things happen. I am pointing out that not all teenagers are that way.
Again, you need to look at the choices your kids are making, and not lump all teens into that group. Many, probably most, teens are great.
To: what the? @ 1:07 and 2:27
I've heard that conservatives have lost so much of their sense of humor that they can't tell when someone is making fun of them.
As I've said before, these type of simple associations work well at stirring up the conservative rabble who don't know any better.
__
Hey What the ?, OUCH!!!
I've seen the banter for the past few weeks between you and a few others, and think that a number of those debating you were over the edge and took it too far. But your last 2 posts seems to lump "us" all together. Yes, I am a republican conservative just like you are a liberal democrat. I would venture to say that I have as much distrust toward the democrats as you do toward George W. and republicans in general. Regardless of anything either of us write this will probably always be true - we will agree to disagree. I have a couple of staunch Democratic friends and we have these debates frequently, and we always laugh about it and move along.
I submit to you that whomever (whoever?) is President of the U.S. does not have as much influence over the world or economy as some would have us believe. (I'm not naive, they do wield a very big stick). Our Government is too big to think that everything is solely in one persons hands - the President works with Congress, the Federal Reserve, The Military, FBI, CIA and many many government and non government organizations.
Clinton seems to get credit for the 90's, but an equal case can be made that nothing happened financially until the Republicans took congress in 94. W Bush seems to get all the blame for anything and everything, but congress has been controlled by the Democrats since the elections in 06 (01 for the Senate itself). You have been quick to comment on W as a buffoon who had poor speaking skills - you would of had a field day with Lincoln! By all accounts he was a horrible public speaker. (The comparison between the two is only in regard to speaking style - not content - but style has been much of your claim).
As a conservative I will point out that at least W brought Credibility back to the white house - something Clinton never had in his best days. I expect a lot out of our president, and Clinton bombed on this while W, and so far Obama have at least been "Presidential" (whatever that means).
When Obama won, you were fond of telling the conservatives to get over it and move along. I'll do the same to you when it comes to W. We get it, you don't like the guy - move along. I hope to heck that Obama and the Democrats who control Congress can help influence the current situation. I'm a little skeptical that raising taxes on those who work and giving it to those who don't is the solution, but the Democrats are placing their faith in this and time will tell. (How's that for painting the democrats position with a broad brush)?
I realize you are sometimes responding to posters with "unique" arguments and facts, but I want you to know that there are some of us who share your passion, but at the opposite end of the political spectrum. I haven't even touched on Illinois State Democrats and where our state is headed, but that is probably best for another topic.
Good comments and information on the Omnia. I too am skeptical that this project won't turn into another tax boondoggle. Too often in the recent past Naperville has embarked on "free" projects that immediately transformed themselves and quickly began slobbering at the public trough. It's seems like it's a "given". As nice as it might be to have this facility, let's wait for better economic times before even thinking about it.
To:By what the? on July 12, 2009 9:59 PM
The "rest of family" refers to the moolah the entire clan put into the race last year. This includes the massive fundraising that was performed by a Kennedy, including Caroline in her pitiful bid to be appointed as Sen. Clinton's succesor.
Sorry, but no conspiracy theories here --- just facts!
To: By what the? on July 13, 2009 1:07 PM
What la-la land do you live in and do you ever do research before taking a stance?
The person who wrote earlier on the "long life" issue hit the nail on the head. Perhaps you should do a little research on NICE (England), which puts a dollar amount of $22,000 dollars on a six-month life extension.
Even better, you can review Obama's own words from his infomercial last month on healthcare: when asked a question related to a young woman's experiences with her very old mother who finally got some care, Obama answered that perhaps on certian diseases and ages our money would be better used, and more compassionate, with morphine versus actual drugs that cure.
Again, sorry to throw data at you as it is clear you think the debate on healthcare is strictly one of partisan politics and it offers you a chance to go on the attack.
To: By Citizen Investigative Journalist on July 13, 2009 2:28 PM
I would add that the effects of critical mass would indicate that Naperville SHOULD do a much better job of bang for the buck.
Former WV Mom,
I don't doubt anything you are saying. You have been extremely lucky. It is rare to have that many people coming in and out of your house that are all honest.
I would not recommend anyone trying it.
Just a few days ago my daughter invited a girl from Extreme Dance to our home that she trusted. This is a group that won 2 national championships in the last 2 years in Ocean Beach, MD and Las Vegas and are seeking a third consecutive championship next month in Myrtle Beach, S.C. Girls that practice their dance routines 12 hours some days to be the best they can be.
This girl she invited from the Dance Studio asked if she could have 3 male friends over that she was sure were 99.99% honest. One of the male friends from Aurora stole my daughters cell phone and the key to the house on the way out.
The girl's family has been awesome. They raided his car and retrieved the cell phone minus the sym card. They are pressuring his parents to force him to cough up the key to the house he stole from the door. It turns out the kid who goes to Waubonsie already has a break and entering conviction unbeknownest to anyone until we googled him.
As I said in my earlier post this was not the 1st time her cell phone was stolen. The other 3 times it was by Naperville Central and Naperville North students or graduates. The first time it got stolen while she was at a church camp in Indiana sleeping.
You have simply been lucky. It is rare to have 60 people over and have them all be honest. The odds of that are one in a thousand no matter how careful you are.
I like teenagers too. But they tend to invite each other rather loosely. They are naive. My daughter is very trusting like yourself. I have little doubt she will lose her 5th cell phone in the next 3 months. She goes to Church every Sunday and is a lovely and trusting kid.
I have met many many parents who simply no longer allow kids to hang around their basements anymore for the reasons I enumerated. I told my daughter she can only have one girl friend at a time that she knows well and no more boys.
Your post is very dangerous as I believe it is the exception. I think parents need to take extreme caution before letting their older teens have friends over.
Peer pressure is incredible to drink and party. Basement windows are common ways to smuggle the booze in the house. I have seen neighbors leave their teenage kids home while they take vacations. When they come back the house is ransacked. It looks more like a landfill than a home.
When we take vacations, the kids are forced to come with us whether they like it or not. We change the code, put back the alarm bars on the basement windows and set the alarm. If anyone decides to visit they will be confronted by the Naperville Police on the way out.
Trust me, you have been lucky. I urge all who read your post to be cautious and not expect the same luck. If you don't change your habits, your luck will run out. I can't tell you how strict I am and how strictly I raised my kids to be good kids and only associate with good kids.
BTW, we also furnished our basement before our kids hit high school so we could have a hang-out for them where we could supervise. It turned out to be a very bad idea. Don't count on your good fortunes continuing with that many people in and out of your home.
Look at that Florida couple and how well intentioned they were with 16 kids. An army of thugs planned a robbery and killed them. Any of these 60 kids you invited could have noticed you are well to do and could be planning a robbery at this time. Trust me, stop being naive and put your guard up before it is too late.
Make sure you have an alarm system and video surveillance at a minimum. And thanks for sharing your positive experiences. I will be praying for you that your experiences continue to be positive and most importantly safe.
Of course Louisville Co makes up for reduced real property taxes with a 3.75% use tax on motor vehicles.
Thomas: Don't waste your time on What the ? When upwards of 20MIL are out of work, Obama will get the blame. He is starting to slip in the polls and probably with 3rd quarter business results and umemployment figures you can make a safe bet his polls for economics will be equal to his grades for such courses in school; below 50%. He will blame Bush all he wants however more people will not care about Bush. Rather they will care about his incompetence costing them their prosperity and he will be held accountable. Remember, without Carter there would have been no Reagan. I suspect without Obama, there will be no Romney as one example of a person who does know something about economics and has a track record of economic success. And at the risk of going over the top, Obama will be shown for the ignoramous he is.
Anonymous...
Our kids invite people to our home. Their friends do not. There is part of the issue right there. We know every kid who sets foot in our home. I was very involved with both of the kids teams in high school, tennis, track and cross country. I ran concessions, helped with parent communications, etc. As a result I also knew every kid on each of the teams. Therein lies the difference. We know the kids who come in our home (yes every one) and at the same time, most of the parents of those kids.
We are not naive, nor overly trusting, just involved. Like I said, every kid talks to us when they come into our home - some will even sit down on the couch with us to have a longer conversation. We know where they are all going to college, what they are majoring in, and where they are working this summer. In some cases, we even know some of the fears the older ones have about graduating from college next year. We have raised kids who do not tolerate any of the behavior you discuss from any of the people they hang out with. They have a decent number of friends, but have never felt it important to be considered "popular." They choose friends who have the same morals and standards. The kids they invite to our home respect our kids, ourselves, and our home. My son still has the same core group of friends that he had the first day of middle school. My daughter's group has changed since freshman year. When she saw some of her friends begin to gravitate towards some choices she didn't agree with, she started going to Young Life and found a whole different group of friends. (She is now a Young Life leader for a group north of Chicago.) She still talks to those old friends on occasion, occasionally grabs lunch with some of them, she just doesn't hang out with them when they are doing other things.
It is definitely interesting, because none of the parents I know well have had such extreme issues with their teens. Maybe it is more prevalent among certain cliques?
I still have to question the choices your kids are making in friends. Why didn't your daughter say no to the girl who wanted to invite other people to your home? Winning dance trophies does not mean someone makes good choices in friends. Why did these boys need to come? If you invite one person over, it does not mean anyone else they want to come can too. Get to know them outside the home before you invite them over.
Are we well to do? Probably not by the standards of the most the people around here. And we tend to live below our means. We have a nice house, but not a McMansion. We don't buy every bell and whistle we can to furnish it. We also don't replace everything our kids lose or do have stolen. When my son's Ipod was stolen at school a few years ago, he was responsible for replacing it. He just chose not to take it to school after that. When my daughter dropped and broke her cell phone, she worked to replace it (and went a bit of time without any cell phone at all.) As a result, they both are very conscientious and careful with their things.
By the way, the 21 year old still chooses not to drink, although he is now of legal age. He sees too much stupidity at college. (No, we are not teetotalers in our home. My husband likes a good beer and I occasionally have a glass of wine with dinner. We have raised our kids that there is a time and an appropriate way to use alcohol.)
By the way, my husband and I took a trip and left the kids at home for a weekend. We set up a few ground rules with the kids ahead of time. Guess what? Our kids continued to earn our trust. They did not have any parties, did not drink, etc. The house was exactly as we left it. The neighbors next door didn't even realize we had left soince nothing seemed any different than normal.
Given the current economic environment, is it time to transition the City of Naperville away from a fully funded pension program (paid for through property and other city taxes) and towards a lower cost / lower payout model similar to what most private companies now have? I understand that Naperville has a particularly high percentage of its revenue that goes to fund its pensions. Perhaps now is the time to address that.
By Anonymous on July 13, 2009 5:44 PM
To: By Citizen Investigative Journalist on July 13, 2009 2:28 PM
I would add that the effects of critical mass would indicate that Naperville SHOULD do a much better job of bang for the buck.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I would agree with you and intended to mention that but my posts are generally long and I am trying to shorten them.
An example of critical mass is we only need one police station as they only need one police station. We only need one Police Chief as they only need one Police Chief. We only need one Park District Director as they only need on Park District Director.
Thus 143,000 residents are splitting the cost here where only 18,800 residents are splitting the cost there. This is I am sure what you mean by "critical mass" and I could not agree with you more.
And this town in Colorado was ranked number 1 for best place to live in the nation for 2009 spending less than $5000 in real estate taxes per 325,000 dollar home than a same priced Naperville home. It really is amazing. It shows and proves to me that our City Officials have been spending money like drunken sailors with no end in sight.
One example is spending 100,000 of hard earned taxpayer money on police overtime on a privately run PigFest that is being discussed currently on another thread. These are the little things or big things that end up increasing our real estate taxes and sales tax to almost unbearable levels.
Despite paying significantly higher real estate taxes, I bet our sales tax in downtown Naperville is higher than the downtown sales tax of Lousiville, Colorado. Anybody willing to bet me before I research it?
To Anonymous on July 13, 2009 5:34 PM
"The "rest of family" refers to the moolah the entire clan put into the race last year. This includes the massive fundraising that was performed by a Kennedy, including Caroline in her pitiful bid to be appointed as Sen. Clinton's succesor.
Sorry, but no conspiracy theories here --- just facts!"
---------------------------------
Oh, really? You claim to have "all the facts"? Then here are some facts for you:
Barack Obama (D)
Top Contributors
This table lists the top donors to this candidate in the 2008 election cycle. The organizations themselves did not donate, rather the money came from the organization's PAC, its individual members or employees or owners, and those individuals' immediate families. Organization totals include subsidiaries and affiliates.
Because of contribution limits, organizations that bundle together many individual contributions are often among the top donors to presidential candidates. These contributions can come from the organization's members or employees (and their families). The organization may support one candidate, or hedge its bets by supporting multiple candidates. Groups with national networks of donors - like EMILY's List and Club for Growth - make for particularly big bundlers.
University of California $1,564,490
Goldman Sachs $994,795
Harvard University $854,017
Microsoft Corp $833,617
Google Inc $803,436
Citigroup Inc $699,790
JPMorgan Chase & Co $695,132
Time Warner $589,334
Sidley Austin LLP $588,598
Stanford University $586,557
National Amusements Inc $550,683
UBS AG $543,219
Wilmerhale Llp $542,618
Skadden, Arps et al $530,839
IBM Corp $527,572
Columbia University $526,802
Morgan Stanley $514,881
General Electric $499,130
Latham & Watkins $493,835
US Government $491,420
Check it out for yourself here:
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00009638
So the Kennedy family is a top campaign contributor and is pulling Obama's strings? In your conspiracy theory dreams!! They are not even listed in the top 20. In your world view, there must be at least 20 contributors pulling Obama's strings before the Kennedy's.
Keep digging deeper--the FACTS don't support your Kennedy conspiracy theory.
We don't buy every bell and whistle we can to furnish it. We also don't replace everything our kids lose or do have stolen.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Former WV Mom,
I knew your life could not be as perfect as you painted it. You slipped up in the above sentence and admitted your kids had things stolen too....just like my kids. So they have not always made good choices but I will hand it to you that they apparently made better choices than our kids since I am assuming your stolen items are less than ours.
BTW, we don't drink or allow our kids to drink. We don't smoke either and thankfully none of our kids smoke. So we have tried our best but have not always succeeded as you alleged to have in keeping losers away from our home and our kids.
I do find it hard to believe that you met all 60 cross country runners outside your home individually before you invited them in. I also find it hard to believe that none of your kids' friends ever brought another friend with them when coming over....that is a little unusual in Naperville.
You sound like you live in Utopia. I think you are in a bit of denial and it came out when you accidentally admitted that your kids also had items stolen from them.
I suggest you heed my advice and limit access to your home before one of these kids decides to case your house and rob it one day....hopefully not hurt you in the process.
If you think everything you have been doing is perfect, I suggest you have a meeting with the Naperville Police Dept. so they can tell you many things you apparently do not know. Trust me, you have been partially lucky and you are partially in denial.
Take the corrective measures I mentioned before it is too late. As I write I am listening to CNN talk about the nice Florida couple that were executed and I am thinking of you, your husband and kids and praying you will all be safe. We live in a world full of sick and vicious people.
And do you think my kids tolerate this behavior of stealing. Of course they don't. They get conned just like adults. Bernie Madoff conned thousands of highly educated and wealthy adults. Do you think it is that hard to con a 19 year older?
I think you are exaggerating just a bit...and it came out when you admitted your kids have had things also stolen. Were they robbed at gun point or were they with the wrong crowd? I suspect the latter. Please feel free to elaborate if you wish and lock your doors at night and be safe.
To Anon again:
What you are referring to as "data" are actually case studies. Case studies are individual anecdotal stories that support a certain point of view. You can pull up "NICE" in England, ignoring the fact that Canada has the same type of national health program and Canadians are not storming our borders to get to U.S. health care. Fine, use England as an example; Britons are less likely to cross the Atlantic to get to "superior" American health care. That's a safer comparison for you.
If you don't think that U.S. for-profit health insurance companies use actuarial tables in determining whether or not to pay for treatment, YOU are beyond la-la land. I have first person experience in how the U.S. handles it's elderly patients. Here's my anecdotal evidence:
My elderly mother, who lives in Seattle, WA, became very ill this past April in the nursing home in which she lives. I reside here in Naperville, my sister in NY, and my brother in Heidelberg, Germany. We tried to persuade her to move to either Naperville or NY so me or my sister could oversee her care, but she refused. She insisted on staying in Seattle where her second husband, our step-father, is buried so she could "visit" him regularly. As a result, we arranged for her to reside in a nursing home in Seattle and appointed a state guardian to oversee her welfare as none of us could be there on a regular basis to follow her care. Her social security and disability income went directly to the nursing home to pay for her room and board. Her medical care was charged to Medicare, and the state of Washington paid for the guardian. We paid for her incidentals.
Starting in April of this year, my siblings and I noticed a change whenever we called to check up on her. No matter what time of day we called, the nursing staff told us she did not want to come to the phone. After about 10 days of this, I finally talked to a night nurse who pulled up our mother's file and told me, to my complete shock, that the state guardian had signed a DNR, "do not resuscitate", order on our mother. She told me that our mother had been refusing food and liquids for days, and that the guardian had recommended the DNR. Our mother was only being turned and made comfortable, the nurse told me, and "If she goes to God, she goes." I immediately called my sis in NY. We intervened and demanded that our mother be admitted to a hospital, then all three of us flew to Seattle to reassess her care. At the time of admission, she was dehydrated and in kidney failure. After a few days of IV treatment, which was all she needed, she perked right up, improved dramatically and told me, "I feel better than I have felt in weeks; in fact, I feel TOO good". She was discharged a few days later, and we made arrangements for her care to be followed by other professionals.
The point of the story is this: the state guardian claimed that my mother's age and financial status had nothing to do with the state's decision to sign a DNR, which my siblings and I will never believe. She is 82 and has outlived her resources, she is totally dependent on the federal and state government for care, and we, her children, pay for what overage we can. The state of Washington, being her legal guardian, weighed the cost of the care she needed vs. her age and decided it was more cost effective to allow her to slowly starve to death in the nursing home than pay for the care she needed to further extend her life.
So don't talk to me about England sending home patients to die as being exclusive of a government health program. It happened to my mother, three months ago, right here in the U.S. under our current system. The only reason she is alive today is because my siblings and I are now splitting the cost of the overage for her care. The state would have allowed her to die three months ago rather than pay for this.
And my brother, who has lived and worked in Germany for 20 years, is absolutely appalled that the U.S. health care system would "throw away" the elderly in this way. Sure, he pays almost 55 percent of his income to the state which covers health care, unemployment, retirement and God knows what else, but the elderly in Germany are never left to die in nursing homes the way our mother almost was simply because the cost of their care exceeds their resources.
So stuff your "data". Until you've dealt with this problem first hand like I have, all you're doing is regurgitating other people's experiences to support your opinion. And we've already established that your opinion isn't worth much.
BUSINESS ASSISTANCE PROGRAM
Ordinance No. 1507, Series 2007
Why assistance may be provided to a project:
The City of Louisville recognizes the value of providing business assistance to aid companies in locating to the City, and to encourage substantial expansion of existing businesses, in keeping with the overall economic development objectives.
Types of Business Assistance
Any sales tax business assistance is calculated on the City’s 3.375% less the City’s open space tax of .375%, unless the City considers a lesser amount to be appropriate.
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What we have learned is the City of Louisville, Colorado which ranked #1 as the best place to live in the USA by Mony/CNN in 2009 has a real estate tax rate of nearly one fourth that of City of Naperville.
I decided to make sure the City did not have a high sales tax rate to compensate for a lower real estate tax rate. What I discovered is the city had a sales tax rate of 3.375% while the State of Colorado has a tax rate of 4.1%. The total is 7.475%.
The downtown Naperville City Tax rate is 3.5%. The state tax rate is 6.25%. The total is 9.75%. So both their city and state tax rates are below ours.
They even rebate the city portion of 3.375% for businesses who are willing to relocate to their City for up to 5 years as long as they fill up the Business Assistance Request Form and qualify based on Ordinance No. 1507, Series 2007.
It is really amazing how the best city in the USA can have a real estate tax rate less than one fourth of ours and provide all the services our city provides and maybe even more. Again, the taxpayers need to wake up and start asking questions.
The Naperville Sun, Daily Herald, and Chicago Tribune also need to wake up and get some real investigative journalists on this case instead of depending on an inexperienced Citizen Journalist.
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PS. Every once in a while a blogger pops on here and states if you can not afford Naperville move out. In my opinion, this kind of blogger is a City Employee benefitting from a Big Fat Pension that he will receive at age 52 based on 75% of his highest and final pay. If a city employee receives an 80k pension at retirement, it is like giving him a $4,000,000 bank CD making 2% per year which is equal to 80k at taxpayer expense. Unbelievable!
If we continue giving each retired city employee $4 million upon retirement, when all 1000 finally retire, we will have given them the equivalent of 4 billion dollars. Is there anyone still confused as to why we as a city are heading towards BANKRUPTCY or Chapter 9 DISSOLUTION? Does anyone still doubt me?
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PS II. Please don't forget to join us in front of City Hall next April 15 to protest this ridiculous taxation. Our goal is to double or triple our numbers from last year. We must be heard by the drunken sailors running City Hall. Apparently they did not hear us last year. So let us try to be a little louder. Please bring loud horns and megaphones with you next year.
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PS III. Many thanks to the 50% who attended PigFest last year and decided to boycott it this year due to the abuse of taxpayer money on police OT and other reasons. Let us shoot for a 75% boycott next INDEPENDENCE DAY and see if they will get the message and stop abusing our hard earned taxpayer dollars on private activities.
By Time for Pension reform? on July 13, 2009 11:53 PM
Given the current economic environment, is it time to transition the City of Naperville away from a fully funded pension program (paid for through property and other city taxes) and towards a lower cost / lower payout model similar to what most private companies now have? I understand that Naperville has a particularly high percentage of its revenue that goes to fund its pensions. Perhaps now is the time to address that.
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I could not agree with you more. I have written about the topic extensively and would like to hear what others have to say.
My son ONCE had an ipod stolen at school, not while in our home, I stated the "at school" part in the above post. There is a difference. It was in a locked athletic locker that was broken into. It had nothing to do with the kids who come to our home, or the kids that they hang out with, which was the topic I was posting on. I never said that they never had anything stolen, I said we had never had anything stolen from our home. Read carefully please.
A little unusual in Naperville, maybe, but I live in Aurora and it is one of the rules of our home. My kids and their friends know that only the people we have met come into our home. And yes I had met all the kids on the team (and their parents) since we always had a parent meeting and a pasta dinner at the school (something I helped the coaches plan) at the very beginning of the season. All of the boys on the team knew who I was and I knew who they were. I could actually cheer them on by name at all of the meets. I talked to the parents at the meets and at the meeting, as well as emailing them details on meets for the coaches. There was regular communication during the four seasons my son ran on the team, that also continued with the distance runners and their families during the track season. I will admit that my daughter's tennis team was easier since it was less kids. But I made an effort to be able to learn who each of the kids were on her tennis team, her girls track distance squad, his cross country team, and his distance track squad. Distance runners are definitely a unique sort of kid. They work extremely hard, 50 weeks out of the year, to do something that gets little glory or recognition at the high school, even though they are probably the most consistently successful team there.
I believe we don't have issues in our home like the ones you talked about because our kids make excellent choices in friends. We also raised them so they have a healthy bit of skepticism about people and don't get "conned" by others. They are all about actions, not words, and both "read" people well.
And at this point it isn't an issue. As I have said, my kids are now in college. We managed to get through 6 years of high school between the two of them with none of these things happening. The kids who continue to come to our home are the ones that they and we are closest to. If your experience has been different then I am sorry for you. But I would prefer to trust my kids, their judgement, and not live in fear. It has worked for 21 years so far.
Thomas:
I've missed your posts! I wish you would weigh in more often, even if it is with a scolding.
OK, point well taken. I will watch my "lumping" behavior more closely from now on. Sorry if I offended.
As you can tell, I really have no patience for extremist views of any kind, left or right, and the way "facts" are manipulated or misrepresented in order to support these views. To say that Obama is being controlled by one political family is as simplistic as claiming Bush was Cheney's puppet for 8 years, which I'm sure annoys Republicans to no end (Actually, I don't think so. I think W. was more independent than critics give him credit for. Right or wrong, he did what he wanted). And I have no patience either for apocalyptic predictions being stated as fact. No one knows how this is going to turn out. Doomsday scenarios seem to be just wishful thinking on the part of those making them.
You're right when you say any President is given too much credit, good or bad, over the world situation or outcome of the economy, that there are many moving parts and the President can't possibly control them all. But the buck stops with the President; he gets all the credit or all the blame whether he deserves it or not. It's how Americans view the Office. Which is why we see statements such as "Rather they (the American people) will care about his (Obama's) incompetence costing them their prosperity and he will be held accountable." Incompetent or not, he will indeed be held accountable. But if you add to this the inconvenient fact that Americans saw their prosperity disappear in a puff of smoke before Obama was even elected, then it becomes simply absurd.
There are two statements you made that you could probably help me understand. The first was the statement about the Democrats being in control of Congress for the last two years of Bush's run, and therefore that means they are to blame, whether entirely or in part, for the economic mess. I hear this a lot from Republicans, but it doesn't make sense. The Republicans controlled Congress for 6 years, three times as long as the Dems did. Six years trumps 2 when it comes to time in office screwing things up. By the time the Dems got back in, the damage had already been done to the financial and housing markets and the downturn was already in motion. My brother in Germany told me about the housing crises and its effect on the German banking system within months of the Dems getting control of Congress again, before it became newsworthy here. The mess was showing up overseas while Americans were still saying "what housing crisis"? So there is no way it could have been avoided by that point, and I do think the Dems were left holding the bag and the blame for this.
You also said W. brought credibility back to the White House. What do you mean by this?
Former WV Mom –
By now I hope you realize that you’re having a discussion with someone who believes that anything outside of their own personal experience is preposterous. And given that he/she has been known to invent people and facts in the past, I have serious doubts that this dancing daughter and her thieving friends even exist.
Save yourself the trouble.
T.B.
To Anonymous on July 13, 2009 5:42 PM--
I winced when I read the last sentence of my last post to you. That was uncalled for on my part. All I can say is that it was late, I was cranky, and this is obviously an emotional issue for me. But that comment was incredibly rude, and I apologize. Just because I don't agree doesn't mean your opinions don't have merit. Sorry for that.
T.B.
Thank you. I realize it now. I just personality hate it when such generalizations are made about teens. While my teens are in no way perfect (my son is pretty lazy when he is not at work or with his friends; my daughter can't keep her room clean for anything and always overschedules herself), my experience with teens overall has been excellent. When I worked as a high school librarian, I always found you could counteract most issues that might come up discipline wise with the teens by merely taking an interest in them as people - asking their opinions, finding out their interests, and then asking how things were going academically, athletically, etc. It often seems that the kids who cause trouble are looking for something in their lives, whether it be attention (positive or negative), thrills, etc. The kids who have their needs met (emotionally too), while not being given all of their wants or sometimes being asked to work for those wants, seem to be the best adjusted. Sometimes this takes an element of sacrifice on us as parents. But that's what we got into when we became parents.
Mr. Investigative Journalist, your last three posts have all been insulting which is why they are not published. I don't want to go down that road again.
Moderator,
Again, you focus on the reaction and not the action that started it.
Why did you post TB's post in essence calling me a liar while I was being truthful?
It is hard for me to understand why you allow people to personally attack ME constantly for no reason.
I respectfully disagree with you that I have been insulting to anyone. I do call people out who lie about me. If you want to call that insulting, be my guest
Why do you allow bloggers to call me Sybil? Why the name calling? Why do you allow bloggers to constantly attack me the MESSENGER instead of my MESSAGE?
I am being sincere in asking you these questions. I hope you take the time to answer them publicly.
Personally, I feel you did not publish my last 3 posts because I exposed lies about me that could be verified as lies if one wanted to make a phone call or two or check my published data.
Anyway, it is your blog site and can be biased if you choose to be biased.
Anyway, I hope you publish this post so that bloggers know I take issue with your interpretation of my posts.
In my humble opinion my posts are always filled with rich facts from my research and investigative reporting. More than any other blogger on this site.
Thank you!
PS. This post is meant for publication.
You take it too far which is why I stop publishing things. I've told you this before so this shouldn't be anything new. Calling people liars or saying you're going to give it to them up the wazoo are inappropriate. It's really easy to post on this blog without having any problems and most of the bloggers do so. You can do it too.
Obama is at the All Star game. In the locker room its like an episode of Boyzz in the Hood. Looking very presidential indeed. Unemployment continues to rise, people are out of work and Obama is in Michigan earlier today telling auto workers their jobs are not comming back. They should go to community college and learn new job skills. For what? There are no jobs fool. Democratic party economics is only about creating government jobs. News flash: most government jobs require little technical knowledge and little formal education. They of course do require an indoctrination of ideas. Meanwhile we have just reached $1 Trillion in budget deficit spending and on track to reach $2 Trillion by the end of 2009. Bush never got us above $500 Billion in deficit spending in any of his 8 years. Obama got us from $458 Billion to $1 TRILlion in his first 5 months. Now if you really think this country is going in the right direction, I can hardly wait to see the train wreck as it becomes apparent that none of these people have any clue what they are doing. Look at the democratic party leadership in DC. Where did it come from? California and Chicago, Illinois. A failed state controlled by democrats and a failed city, again controlled by democrats. It seems that FINALLY the costs of liberal social policies will now break the bank.
If your experience has been different then I am sorry for you. But I would prefer to trust my kids, their judgement, and not live in fear. It has worked for 21 years so far.
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Former WV Mom,
I have no doubt you are being truthful in relaying your experiences. I would like to assure you, I have also been very truthful.
I also feel you have been extremely fortunate. I have had to call the Naperville Police on more than one occassion. I have had discussions with many police officers. They have told me about 27% of the kids that go to our high schools are bad news with police records which are many times criminal.
Both the police and the Naperville Sun had reported that up to 70% of the kids in our schools drink alcohol illegally before they graduate. A smaller percentage smokes dope. So I don't know why you or anyone else would think I am making things up here. Most times they plead guilty, obtain supervision and it is not part of this 27% record that teens in Naperville have with the NPD.
Banks and retail stores go through extreme measures to hire honest employees. They interview them, talk to them, put them through background checks, have them take honesty tests and in the old days even polygraph tests before they became illegal as a standard for hiring. They try harder than you do....but they fail.
Most theft in businesses is insider theft, something you may not realize.
If you were as good as you say in judging character and honesty, Wal-Mart would probably pay you a million dollars a year to institute your system of detecting honesty amongst their employees and you would save them a billion dollars a year in employee theft.
While I believe you are well intentioned and being honest, I believe you are out of touch with reality. You may have been lucky so far in your life. But don't count on it if you are going to continue to trust people the way you have. As I said a couple in the panhandle of Florida also trusted people for over 21 years and people who visted their home to perform work ended up executing them. Not one psycho but apparently 6 grown men and a 16 year old juvenile conspired to committ this despicable double murder. Truly, a very sad story. A heart breaking story since they had 16 kids.
My daughter has been on Extreme Dance for years and competed nationally in Ocean City, Las Vegas and will be seeking her 3rd group national championship this month in Myrtle Beach. Extreme Dance in Naperville next to Office Max on Ogden Ave have won 2 consecutive National Championship and they are seeking their 3rd in a row. Please feel free to call them if you don't believe me.
We are hoping they will win their third in a row. As a good parent I will be there supporting her and her teammates and not blogging. (Maybe I will blog a few times so the Moderator can track my IP in Myrtle Beach, S. Carolina to prove my honesty.) It would be nice if the Naperville Sun can give this group some coverage after they hopefully win their 3rd consecutive National Championship in HIP HOP and hopefully their first in JAZZ on July 25th through 29th of this month in Myrtle Beach, SC.
And speaking how easily one can be conned in this world, you believed this character TB when he told you I did not have a daughter who dances and that my stories of theft were made up.
I guess your judgment of character has been proven to be so good that you would potentially allow a person who lies like TB into your home. You even thanked T.B. for providing you with lies. And you really want us to believe you are a good judge of character?
I think I have made my point that while you are a very nice and well intentioned lady, you are not as good a judge of character as you once thought. Maybe you will agree with me and maybe you will not.
Former WV Mom –
I think you can see from your foil’s reaction (or should I say over-reaction?) that your judgment is just fine.
I said I had doubts about the voracity of Anon’s posts, mostly due to the past use of many different handles to pat herself on the back and also her admitted invention of different occupations. It seems that if Anon believes she can “relate” to someone, then she can post as that person—even police officers. Given this track record, who’s to say if Anon really has a dancing daughter or can just relate to someone who does?
I also find it curious that someone with so much apparent contact and need for the NPD has in the past called various NPD officers scum, fascists, and other insulting words I’m sure Chris won’t reprint here.
No, Former WV Mom, I’d say you have very good judgment.
T.B.
Did I ever say you lied? No. Do I believe that you are someone who believes that anything outside of their own personal experience is preposterous? Yes. (That is the part of T.B.'s post I was responding to. I should have been more specific.) You seem to believe that everything is bad, negative and if someone doesn't realize that they are naive or lucky. I have merely been pointing out all along that my experiences have been quite different.
As I have said, my experiences have been quite different. They are my experiences. I prefer not to live my life like you do and obviously have not needed to. I guess my kids tend to hang with the 73% of teens who do not have criminal records and the 30% who don't drink illegally before graduation (according to your statistics above. Better stats are at http://www.thepowerofchoice.info/) I am not overly trusting. I take the time to get to know the kids who come in my home and the kids who I worked with.
Maybe you need to start asking why your experiences have been so different than mine? (And yes I have been entirely truthful about my experiences.) Could it be because you are looking for the negative? Could it be the choices your kids are making in friends? Or are they unable to stand up to so-called friends when they are making bad choices? I am lucky (although their upbringing probably had a lot to do with it) that my kids have made excellent choices in friends, that they can stand up for what is right, and believe that true friends do not ask you to do anything that you would not choose to do yourself.
Personally, I think most of the people on these blogs do tend to exaggerate, skew statistics, etc. to prove their points or just to get reactions. Since there is no way to truly know who anyone is, they can get away with it. However, if there is anyone who reads these blogs who actually knows me in real life, they probably know exactly who I am based on the things I have said in these posts. And they would all attest that these things are true and not exaggerated. These have been my experiences with the teens I have known.
By the way the cross country pasta dinners were a weekly occurrence. I always held the second one (the first was the one at the school.) Other parents, both Aurora and Naperville, signed up to have them after that. None of us ever had an issue with theft, vandalism, etc. at a WV CC dinner.
Do I believe everyone in the world is honest? No. I am not crazy. I have all along merely pointed out that your experiences and attitudes are not the only things out there. I hate when people generalize about any group of people.
To:By what the? on July 14, 2009 12:31 AM
Nothing you post conflicts with what I wrote ---- the Kennedy clan was IMPERATIVELY involved in fundraising activities for Obama. This doesn't mean that they, personally, had to reach into their pockets. What they did was both host fundraisers, and appear at others, to strong-arm donors to kick in the bucks.
what the? on July 14, 2009 12:39 PM
Re: your two questions: I didn't mean to write or imply that the Democrats (Congress) are to blame because they were in control of Congress. Like you (but in reverse) I often hear that Clinton was solely responsible for the boom in the 90's and Bush is solely to blame for the current economic situation. My belief is that the President is but one cog (albeit a major one) in the wheel we call Government. If someone wants to credit Clinton, or lambast Bush they need to at least acknowledge the fact that Republicans were in control for 6 of Clinton's 8 years, and the Democrats were in control for Bush's last 2 (Senate for his last 6).
When my Democratic friends say things like you did: "By the time the Dems got back in, the damage had already been done to the financial and housing markets and the downturn was already in motion." I take this to mean that you lay all the blame on the Republicans, while I am simply saying there is plenty of blame to go around. I wouldn't be a good Republican if I didn't think the Democrats are more to blame than the Republicans, but I would probably put this at a 60/40 split. If you look at the current mortgage mess, it seems pretty clear that at least "part" of the problem was Barney Frank and Charles Rangels insistence that FNMA and Freddie Mac make 20-30% of their loans to low income borrowers.
As for the credibility issue, like I said before, I detest Clinton as much as you detest Bush. IMHO, what Clinton did with and to Monica was reprehensible. I felt like Democrats simply overlooked this with comments like, "Hey, it doesn't affect me", or "who hasn't lied about sex?" etc. etc. This kind of excuse making drove me crazy. I expect much more out of a President, and this includes their personal life, decision making, and respect for the American people. When Clinton lied to us all (regardless of what the lie was about) it sealed it for me. W Bush was a straight shooter and what you called "cocky" I call "confident".
this doesn't mean I don't wish W would have done things differently. I don't want to make this an encyclopedia, but I'll let you know that in hindsight I don't like the Iraq war, BUT the failings of this war are a result of years and years of misguided information gathering by informants, FBI, CIA, national security organizations that include both Dems and Repubs. The belief at the beginning was that Saddam Hussein was a "Hitler like" (notice I say "Like") figure who without a doubt killed many of his own people, and was trying to kill many others. Democrats at the time all joined in this view and we started a war. It now drives me crazy that labels such as "Bush's War", "Unilateral War", etc. are used. I even had a friend who tried to tell me that this was the first war that we attacked first without provocation. I'm not the best at history, but I asked my friend if he thought that Germany attacked us in WWII and if he thought we should have even gotten involved in Europe in 1941? I then wondered if he thought that FDR staged a unilateral war and if he supported Hitler's demise? The conversation ended rather quickly. We have a number of examples where the U.S. joined a war / police action in an effort to help the people or protect our interests.
Oh well, I wanted to jump in sooner, but you were waging a number of battles and I didn't want to butt in. BUT I wanted to stick up for my view and call you on what I felt were all or nothing conclusions.
Thomas on July 15, 2009 10:16 AM
I even had a friend who tried to tell me that this was the first war that we attacked first without provocation. I'm not the best at history, but I asked my friend if he thought that Germany attacked us in WWII and if he thought we should have even gotten involved in Europe in 1941? I then wondered if he thought that FDR staged a unilateral war and if he supported Hitler's demise? The conversation ended rather quickly. We have a number of examples where the U.S. joined a war / police action in an effort to help the people or protect our interests.
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I know, I know, pretty confusing. I forgot to include that my friend tried to make the case that the Iraq war was the first war where we weren't attacked first. My response was that Germany never attacked us yet we joined WWII. I could have added Vietnam, Korea and WWI to the list of wars that we were part of where the U.S. itself wasn't attacked, yet we joined.
Using this logic, WWII against Japan would have been the only "just" war entered into - of course Hawaii wasn't a state yet, but they did attack our base.
By Anonymous on July 15, 2009 10:14 AM
Nothing you post conflicts with what I wrote ---- the Kennedy clan was IMPERATIVELY involved in fundraising activities for Obama. This doesn't mean that they, personally, had to reach into their pockets. What they did was both host fundraisers, and appear at others, to strong-arm donors to kick in the bucks.
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That the Kennedy clan was imperatively involved in fundraising is much different from saying the Kennedy clan is pulling Obamas strings now that he's in office. It's the pulling strings part that sounds conspiratorial. All fund raising is imperative in nature, that's why people do it. So what if they hosted fundraisers and "strong-armed" donors. That's what EVERYONE does. It sounds more like you resent the fact that the Kennedys were very good at it. Sour grapes, anyone?
By Former WV Mom on July 15, 2009 8:52 AM
Did I ever say you lied? No. Do I believe that you are someone who believes that anything outside of their own personal experience is preposterous? Yes. You seem to believe that everything is bad, negative and if someone doesn't realize that they are naive or lucky. I have merely been pointing out all along that my experiences have been quite different.
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You never said I lied. Thank You. I appreciate that since I have been truthful with you as you have been truthful with me.
Sometimes, I also wonder if you believe that anything outside of YOUR OWN personal experiences is preposterous. That comment slices both ways. Keep in mind I have told you repeatedly that you seem like a nice lady and believe you have always been truthful with me but that does not mean I can not disagree with you and question your judgment.
The one area where I disagree with you strongly is that you claim that you have this inherent and magical ability to meet someone and kind of size that person up as to whether he is good or bad, honest or dishonest.
I told you Wal-Mart would love to have a person like you work for them in order to never have a dishonest employee ever walk through their doors again. You ignored my comment. In my opinion because you know no one is as good of a judge of character as you claim you are. And I will repeat, NO ONE!
I don't think the world is bad. I don't think teenagers are bad. But my experience is that they go through a very rebellious phase at one point and associate with the wrong people, intentionally or unintentionally, and get themselves in trouble. I try to guard against this but have not been as successful as you have. I still believe you have been very lucky.
And sometimes kids can't learn who is worthy of association and who is not worthy of association until and unless they make a few mistakes. My kids definetly have made mistakes and possibly are a little wiser for their mistakes.
I have another older daughter who went to visit friends we trust at their parents home after prom and somehow alcohol found a way through the basement windows of that home. My daughter did not drink and had just gotten there. As soon as she got there she was arrested with dozens of others. I guess they have a law in Naperville that allows them to arrest teenagers if they are around alcohol even if they are not drinking.
My older daughter also invited people who ended up causing trouble and stealing. Is she a bad person because she can not tell an honest person from a dishonest person? Anyway, she is in her second year of medical school and doing very well. I could not ask for a better child but we did have a couple of difficult years with her associations even though she went to church and was always in the top 10% of her class.
I know a great successful neighbor who has 4 children. Three are the best you can imagine. One turned out to be a loser and is currently in jail. Now if you were judging kids by their parents and upbringing, how would you know this kid is a bad apple if your kids wanted to have him over. His siblings are all in graduate school while he is in jail.
My issue with you is that you state you can judge honesty by meeting someone briefly. In my opinion, you can not. I believe I am of the majority opinion and you are of the minority opinion.
I know I am repeating myself but how many successful people met Bernie Madoff and gave him their life savings to invest for them. Ten of thousands thought he was an honorable and honest man. He was in all their social circles. In the end, he stole 65 billion dollars from all his friends, acquaintences, colleagues and even relatives. Are you telling me, WV Mom, you would have given him the once over and been able to detect that he was a dishonest person?Even the SEC put him under a financial microscope and could not tell he was running a ponzi scheme for over 2 decades.
As I said if you have these abilities you say you have for judging honesty, please visit Wal-Mart. I am sure they will pay you 1 millin dollars a year if you promise them a crook will never pass through their employment doors again.
I am not trying to give you a hard time but I believe you are wrong when you state you can judge a book by its cover. As a librarian you should know what I am talking about.
Have a nice day and be careful!
Anon,
In an interview with one of the candidates for Governor in California yesterday; it was discussed that in the Constitution, States have to honor their contracts too. Therefore, the IOUs are unconstitutional and any vendor holding them can sue the State in court and win.
The point was, once there is a "first mover" in the courts, it will rapidly "snowball" since no vendor will want to be left out of the judgments; and, California (like E. St Louis) will be forced to liquidate it's assets to pay the claims, fees and any damages.
Assets include State Parks, buildings, roads, police cars....you get the picture. The FEDs are already making a play to grab California's parks.
As a direct result of the insane Federal Spending, "dollar dumping" may start by foreign governments and no one will want to get left holding worthless greenbacks. Like musical chairs. China and Russia are doing everything they can to start the stampede out of the dollar. It will be as devastating as a nuclear attack on our economy, and we will have shot ourselves.
Your appraisal of the situation is far-too-modest; you need to think in terms of 30-40% unemployment, major cities under martial law, imported goods like oil shooting up 300-1000% in a matter of weeks. This is the road we are on. Just like all of the collapses in social-justice-Argentina, once a first world country. Maybe, Madonna will be invited to the White House to sing for the people.
Look at the sales of gold and guns, the move is already on.
If big grabbing government worries you now, wait until the FDR like emergency decrees start coming out demanding all gold etc be given to the FEDs. Bank's safety deposit boxes were frozen by the FEDs in the 1930s, this is why private safe's are going into so many houses as I write. FDR did it, Obama and the Dems won't?
Maybe, the congress will vote in the "emergency legislation" in the middle of night after they fail to read a single page. This trend is already clear.
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By Anonymous on July 14, 2009 10:20 PM
Look at the democratic party leadership in DC. Where did it come from? California and Chicago, Illinois. A failed state controlled by democrats and a failed city, again controlled by democrats. It seems that FINALLY the costs of liberal social policies will now break the bank.
Anonymous on July 15, 2009 2:22 PM
she is in her second year of medical school and doing very well.
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Is this the one who also ran through some toll booths without paying?
By Wayne Cummings on July 10, 2009 12:31 AM
Despite a budget of $5 million tax payer dollars, the Naperville Park District's plans for the renovation of the Centennial Beach Bathhouse do not include an elevator for disabled citizens. The board feels that the long steep sidewalk from the parking lot down to the beach is adequate for the needs of residents with limited mobility.
So I've challenged the board members to take the 'Centennial Beach Accessibility Challenge'. Meet me at the site and see if you can climb into a manual wheelchair and wheel yourself from the parking lot, up, up, up to the bathhouse and then down, down, down to the pool. If you can make the round trip without overexertion then you can decide against the elevator in good conscience. We'll videotape the experience so that the public can witness how easy it was for you to make that trek.
So far, none of the board members have accepted my challenge. So I ask all Napervillians to sign this petition urging the board to provide an elevator or lift as part of the bathhouse renovation.
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The beach house is a disaster. I experienced it the other day.
But spending 5 million dollars of taxpayer money for a beach house is incomprehendable when we have budget shortfalls and pension shortfalls.
1. Louisville, CO
Courtesy: City of Louisville
Top 100 rank: 1
Population: 18,800
Typical single-family house: $325,000
Estimated property taxes: $1,590
Unemployment rate: 6.0% (county)
Fun fact: Rail service to Boulder and Denver is scheduled to begin in 2017.
Pluses: Hiking, biking, golfing, skiing…
Minuses: No major negatives (That’s why it’s No. 1!)
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I posted the above and no one has explained to me yet how Louisville, Colorado can charge one fourth of what Naperville charges in real estate taxes for the identical price home especially since Colorado sales tax and income tax when combined are lower than Illinois sales and income tax.
If Naperville is so efficient, can anyone explain this?
Of course it costs more to run Naperville since it is a bigger city. But Naperville also has more homes that contribute to the tax base.
So we are talking about pro rata. We are talking about per home.
Thomas:
My understanding of WWII events is that the U.S. did have just cause in fighting against Germany, just not Japan, because Hitler and the Japanese had entered into a pact as allies. Their partnership consisted of supporting each other in the war towards the same goal and, as we found out later, dividing the world between them at its completion. So, yeah, I think that qualified the Germans for U.S. retaliation.
WWI, Korea and Vietnam were different. The Lusitania was a British vessel, so a U.S. ship wasn't directly targeted but over 100 U.S. civilians died anyway because they had the misfortune to be on board. And Korea and Vietnam took place during the Cold War era when the U.S. felt it was necessary to our national security to assist other countries in fighting the spread of communism. But still, the U.S. did not provoke any of these wars, we were either drawn in or joined in later. Iraq was different in this way. So doesn't your friend have a point after all?
Regardless of the reasons, the U.S. DID invade. First, suspecting Hussein of being implicated in 9/11 was the reason. Then, when that was disproved, the probability of him developing WMDs was the reason. Plus, Saddam did try to have Bush Sr. assassinated, so you know it was personal for W. At the time, it did seem like the Bush administration kept digging until they unearthed enough probable cause, and then sold it to Congress this way. The Bush administration really did push to go into Iraq, so I think this is why it's seen as "Bush's War".
At any rate, I don't "detest" Bush; that's too strong a word. More accurate would be to say he was often an embarrassment, not on purpose, he was just being himself. A lot of the abuse Bush got from the media was because the verbal gaffes and antics he put out for public consumption gave the media so much to abuse him with. And now many Republicans are crying "not fair" and "media bias" because they don't see Obama getting his fair share.
The two men have totally different public personas. I got into this with a another blogger on the previous open topic thread, so I don't want to be redundant and repeat it here. You used the word "cocky", so I suspect you've already seen it. But a lot of the things Bush got abused for Obama would never do or say to begin with, so you really can't compare the two.
I don't detest Clinton either, but I agree his behavior made a mockery of the Presidency and embarrassed our country. It bothered me that he still had so much influence during Hillary's campaign. And I can agree with your 60/40 assessment of blame for the economic crisis, that seems reasonable. And definitely, the seeds for this economic mess were sown years ago when Frank required that Freddie and Fannie make a certain percentage of their loans to low income groups. I can't remember the exact percentage, but my understanding at the time was that it was a small percentage of overall loans, so 30% seems high. At any rate, if banks had stuck to the recommended percentages, we would not have had a mortgage crisis. The crisis occurred because bankers and Wall Street realized they could make a killing by bundling these risky loans and selling them and so turned making risky loans into an industry in itself. Fannie and Freddie were never intended to be used this way. A well-intentioned program was perverted, basically, by the profit motive, and deregulation and lack of oversight by the SEC allowed it to go undetected until much too late.
So there's definitely more than enough blame for everyone. But just about all the posts that come across this blog on the subject make all or nothing conclusions about Democrats. In fact, there's a good one right now from Anonymous on July 14, 2009 at 10:20 PM. So when dealing with all or nothings, I tend to respond in all or nothings, because a more moderate approach doesn't seem to make an impression. This is when I tend to lump. Keep in mind I do know the difference, it's just a part of my blogging style I need to work on.
And this is for you Anon on July 14, 2009 at 10:20 PM: If a president is going to let down his guard and have some fun, a locker room is a very appropriate place to do it. But I'm sure what the media will be focusing on is the pitch. It was high, a bit soft, and, well, girly. Yes, I will admit it! Obama throws like a girl!! Good thing he prefers basketball. Stick with what you know, dude! I'm going to tune in to Hannity tonight just to see how much mileage he gets out of this.
And butt in anytime, Thomas. Your comments are always welcome.
If you want to talk about unjustified wars, study the Mexican-American War and the Spanish-American War sometime. Both were thinly-veiled land grabs started under little pretext. There's a good book on the Mexican-American war by Ike's son, John S.D. Eisenhower, that I'd recommend. Countries could get away with wars like those in those days. If we fought one like that now we'd be condemned by every nation in the world.
If big grabbing government worries you now, wait until the FDR like emergency decrees start coming out demanding all gold etc be given to the FEDs. Bank's safety deposit boxes were frozen by the FEDs in the 1930s, this is why private safe's are going into so many houses as I write. FDR did it, Obama and the Dems won't?
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I agree that the state of the economy is a disaster and the other shoe is about ready to fall. That is why I trade stocks and refuse to own them for the long term as I see nothing but gloom and doom ahead. I don't want to be holding the knife when it falls.
But I have never heard of the government demanding the people's gold. Or freezing private safe deposit boxes. This seems DRACONIAN.
How do you freeze a safe deposit box? Are you talking about the government forcefully unlocking them and taking whatever they find in them of value? I am sorry but you have me very confused.
Could you provide your source for this and please elaborate a little if possible?
To:Citizen Investigative Journalist on July 15, 2009 4:25 PM
For God's sake, just read your history!!!
ALL gold was taken by FDR (He didn't streal it ---- jst wanted it all in Gov't hands) and safety de[posit boxes were opened. In fact, until the late 80s, the Feds would open safety deposit boves upon the death of the individual who owned it (and banks were under federal order to do just so).
Come alive, man, and learn your history instead of just getting it from katie Couric, or CNN, or any --NBC affiliate.
Citizen,
The entire FDR section is worth a read, same rhetoric and thinking as FDR who kept the economy in depression while pursing "social justice". The article favors FDR, it forgets to mention that just after the gold was seized, the dollar was drastically devalued, a 50% tax.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt
In a controversial move, Roosevelt gave Executive Order 6102 which made all privately held gold of American citizens property of the US Treasury. This gold confiscation by executive order was argued to be unconstitutional, but Roosevelt's executive order asserts authority to do so based on the "War Time Powers Act" of 1917. Gold bullion remained illegal for Americans to own until President Ford rescinded the order in 1974.[50][51][52][53]
Part 2 Inflation used as a tax. Obama and the Democrats are on the road to hyper inflation as a way to tax all savings, hence the gold hoarding that is going on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard
John Maynard Keynes, who had argued against such a gold standard, proposed to put the power to print money in the hands of the privately owned Bank of England. Keynes, in warning about the menaces of inflation, said "By a continuous process of inflation, governments can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens. By this method, they not only confiscate, but they confiscate arbitrarily; and while the process impoverishes many, it actually enriches some".[
To Anonymous on July 15, 2009 6:29 PM:
". . . same rhetoric and thinking as FDR who kept the economy in depression while pursing "social justice"."
KEPT?! FDR KEPT the economy in depression? I'm sure maintaining the depression was on his daily "to do" list. Confiscating gold from citizens? Raiding safe deposit boxes? Where do you guys get this stuff--Dickipedia?
Citizen Investigative Journalist, I have an assignment for you.............
Find out why there were 6 NPD squad cars in a convoy headed north on I355 from I80 today at around 4pm.
another funny california fact. my sister and her husband retired after 30 years at various jobs while living in california. they moved to NC to escape the madness and now they are hounded by the california department of revenue. you see, they are required to pay income tax on money they receive from pension accounts earned while they lived in california AND they have to pay income tax in NC, their new state of residence. isn't government grand? i think it was said above we are getting to the point where we cannot afford government. lets quickly have another 1000 page none of the democrats read bill and vote it into law. obama said today we need to buck up. we cannot have insurance companies making decisions about treatment. it is better left to the government he implied.
By Anonymous on July 15, 2009 10:23 PM
you see, they are required to pay income tax on money they receive from pension accounts earned while they lived in california AND they have to pay income tax in NC, their new state of residence. isn't government grand?
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NC as the resident state should give them credit for the taxes paid to California against the taxes owed to NC. It is a hassle though to have to do 2 state tax returns with tax credit calculations.
Citizen,
I almost forgot, unless the Federal Income Tax form has changed, there is a unique box you can check and take a tax deduction for a safe deposit box.
When I pointed it out to my accountant 10 years ago and the reason, they began advising their clients to eat the cost of the box and keep their information from the IRS.
By Anonymous on July 16, 2009 12:18 AM
Citizen Investigative Journalist,
I almost forgot, unless the Federal Income Tax form has changed, there is a unique box you can check and take a tax deduction for a safe deposit box. When I pointed it out to my accountant 10 years ago and the reason, they began advising their clients to eat the cost of the box and keep their information from the IRS.
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The IRS can track safe deposit boxes very easily. Most banks require you to provide your real name, show ID, provide a Social Security Number and many times a driver's license before they let you open a Safe Deposit Box. The IRS has access to this information just like they do to your bank accounts.
If you write a check to pay for your Safe Deposit Fee that could also lead the IRS to your safe deposit box. Of course, it is wiser to pay cash each year for your safe deposit box if you want to put another hurdle in front of the IRS.
When you fill out 1040 Schedule B for the IRS to show your interest income, you are pretty much telling the IRS where you bank. If they want to find out if you have a safe deposit box, they will visit the banks you bank at first, with a subpoena of course.
But here is the catch. While the IRS can review your in and out card for your Safe Deposit Box with a subpoena, they can not enter your Safe Deposit Box.
A safe deposit box as well as your home are almost always off limits to the IRS. Rarely will a judge ever give the IRS permission to enter your home or safe deposit box.
There are exceptions. If you rob a bank and the police actually see you hiding the stolen money in your safe deposit box, a judge will issue a subpoena allowing the police or IRS to open it or break into it. This is one of the very rare cases the IRS can penetrate your safe deposit box. So don't rob a bank and let anyone see you take the stolen cash to your safe deposit box and it will be SAFE.
Your business or office is a different matter. It is very easy for the IRS to get a Judges order to penetrate either.
It is also not wise to take an office deduction on 1040 for a home office if you want to keep your home off limits to the IRS.
Therefore, a Safe Deposit Box is a very SAFE place to keep your valuables, gold, cash, or something you want to hide from the IRS. The IRS will most certainly know about your Safe Deposit Box. But the IRS will also most certainly NOT be able to enter it.
In summary, the IRS does NOT need you to take a deduction on 1040 Schedule A for your safe deposit box, to know you have one. They have many other ways of finding out. Having said that, I agree with you and your accountant that you should not take the deduction especially if you are trying to hide something, but it is not a fool proof method to avoid detection. Even if they detect your Safe Deposit Box, they can NOT enter it unless you literally lead them to it after robbing a bank or retailer or whomever.
I hope this information is not too confusing but I believe it is very accurate, as it was obtained from very experienced civil and criminal IRS defense attorneys, many of whom were former IRS agents.
what the ? –
I’m not here to re-hash our previous discussion on W vs BHO and the media, but I found this point of yours interesting:
“…the Bush administration kept digging until they unearthed enough probable cause, and then sold it to Congress this way….”
Remember that the Brits, French, and Germans all believed as the U.S. did regarding Iraq’s WMDs, but the French and Germans differed in how to handle the situation. Hans Blix of the IAEA later stated that he believed Hussein kept up the “lie” of WMDs as a deterrent, a fact confirmed by recent stories of Hussein’s FBI interrogations (though interestingly as a deterrent to Iran, not the U.S.).
And I don’t think this was necessarily “sold” to Congress by W. Bill Clinton’s administration believed there were WMDs and Hillary famously stated that she’d independently come to the same conclusion.
W may have pushed for the war, but Congress jumped in with both feet until it became unpopular. Then the Dems (with the possible exception of Hillary) ran for the hills and cowardly blamed the whole thing on W.
T.B.
Chris –
“Remember the Maine!” You’re correct that the Spanish-American and Mexican-American wars were thinly veiled land grabs.
Interestingly, whether we attacked Germany “unprovoked” in WWII is sort of a mute point. We didn’t declare war on Germany, they declared war on the U.S. on Dec 11, 1941 and started moving U-boats to our East Coast in Jan 1942 to attack commerce ships.
In fact, from what I've read, I believe most Americans would have been happy to deal with Japan after Pearl Harbor and not get involved in “Europe’s war”. However, Hitler’s declaration of war gave FDR the freedom to get involved in Europe as he’d been longing to do for some time. If not for Hitler’s miscalculation, we may never have gone “over there” for a second time.
T.B.
so let me get this straight. they leave california and move to NC. they receive NO government services or ANYTHING from california yet california can still tax their income in retirement? and while they live in NC and receive services from NC, NC has to give a credit?
What the ?
I didn't realize the Germans and Japanese were in cahoots and going to divide the world once complete - knowing what we know about Hirohito and Hitler I wonder how nice they would play with each other? Oh well - that's another topic.
My "friend" (actually my brother-in-law (D)) in his effort to make his case that Iraq is W's war, tried to claim that this was the first war where the U.S. reacted unilaterally and without provocation, i.e. he tried to claim that since we weren't directly attacked we should have stayed out. The Lusitania is certainly an example of U.S. loss of life, but hardly a compelling reason to join in WWII.
In Vietnam, Korea and both World wars we were drawin into the battle to aid our allies, and/or protect our interests - certainly not because we were responding to a direct attack. Whether you agree or not, the reason for Iraq was to eliminate a genocidal dictator, stop his obtaining weapons of mass destruction, and protect our interests. My previous point about intelligence gathering (FBI, CIA, faulty info etc.)is an effort to point out that not only is intelligence a near impossible task, it can result in faulty conclusions. If you look at the data available before the war, W was not the only one who believed weapons were being obtained, manufactured or sourced by Hussein. It's convenient to blame W now, but come on - guys like Hussein or Bin Laden didn't start their escapades the day W took office. This was a complete failure of the entire U.S. method of gathering info, espionage, spying, whatever you want to call it. Again, something shared by both parties. So if you want to call Iraq "Bush's War" you join many with this label, but would you be ok if I then called Vietnam "Kennedy and Johnson's war"?
As for "media bias" it is a right of passage to be a Republican and also claim Media Bias! People watch and hear what they want and need to make their own decision. You have commented on "Faux news" (your words) as being conservatively bias, I have indicated that MSNBC is Liberally biased. Who's right? I don't know - we can probably both make a case. This blog is famous for telling people to move if they don't like something, I'll simply tell anyone to stop watching something if they don't like it or agree with it. Personally I read the NYT and watch CNN and MSNBC in addition to the Journal and Fox news. I see the differences from BOTH in how they report stories. The Liberals seem up in arms about how Conservatives dominate talk radio - liberals have tried (air america), but can't seem to draw an audience. Conservatives are up in arms over what we perceive to be bias from NBC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC, heck even WTTW has Bill Moyers who you must admit is Liberal. So maybe the answer is that Liberals should watch TV, and Conservatives should just listen to the radio.!!
Yes. I know that on a blog it is often an all or nothing proposition, and extreme cases and points of view are often given, and they deserve an equally extreme response. I purposely stayed out for a while as you were "debating" a few posters at a time, and know that you were fighting fire with fire.
Your agreement on the 60/40 split in blame I guess makes us less extreme than some - but you do know that I am laying the 60 to the Democrats? (assume you switch the numbers to Republican blame?) I am fiercely a loyal Republican, but do see both sides, which I believe you do as well.
Have I ever said your experiences were preposterous? No. I have pointed out that there are many of us out there who don't deal with these issues with their kids. I was not the only parent to host the cross country kids for dinner each year. They had anywhere from 4-7 a year, held at people's homes. No one else had issues with the kids either. (Well, except the one time one of the kids overate and vomited as a result.)
So this started with your general statement of "If you have teenagers who want to bring a large group of kids over to your home or even basement, do not allow them" followed by the descriptions of what has been stolen from your home. I have all along been trying to point out that there are others out there who have not had these things happen. In our case, we had rules that our kids and their friends respected. And I do think the fact that I take an interest in the kids makes a difference to. Never claimed to have a magic touch, but obviously something we are doing has been right. The teen years, and now early adult years, have been a breeze.
Am I lucky? Maybe a little. But I believe a lot had to do with parenting. My kids chose not to rebel in the ways your daughter did and other kids do. Do some kids rebel? Sure. The rebellions we had were: my son refusing to get his hair cut, no matter how shaggy it was, until the state track meet each year. His theory was he could cut some time off at the most important met by cutting his hair then, not earlier in the year. Kind of like swimmers who shave before a big meet. Truth is? It actually seemed worked for him. He cut a decent amount of time from his 800 that way. My daughter's rebellion was choosing to get a tattoo this year when she got to college. It is about 1", the word "FAITH" and is on her foot in an area only seen if she is entirely barefoot. (Even her flip flops cover it up.) She spent a good 6 months considering it, talked to me about it, and while I wasn;t entirely sure about it, I respect her decisions. For her it is a daily reminder of why she makes the choices she makes. Interestingly, while we have a certain level of faith in our home, we have not been regular churchgoers. My daughter chose to become more active on her own, not through our making her. (I know plenty of people who went to church regularly whose kids were rebellious. Church in and of itself does not a good kid make. There has long been a stereotype of the pastor's kid as rebellious. It's how much the kids believe and buy into the teachings that will make the difference more than anything, not if they feel they have to go or it is merely a habit or routine.)
I still strongly believe that these things that happen are often the result of their choices or often not speaking up when friends make bad choices. They are sometimes afraid of being ostracized as a result, losing those friends, being considered "uncool." My kids have always been willing to speak up, didn't care if they were considered "cool," honestly had no desire to be part of the group considered cool since they did not like how those kids acted or treated others not in their group, and were able to find others who felt the same way. In both cases, others have looked to them as positive roles models. Especially in my daughter's case. When she first started with Young Life at Waubonsie, within a couple of months, she was able to bring in quite a few others to the group. It's part of why she was recommended for leadership and is now a YL leader. Her leaders here could see how great of an influence and impact she has on others around her.
The thing is, their friends also are great kids, who make good choices. In some cases, it has been the influence of my kids that has helped them continue to make good choices.
So I guess it all comes down to... what has been different in my home (and the homes of many of my kids' friends) that has allowed us to raise kids who make good choices, hang out with others who make good choices, and seem to be a positive influence on others around them so that they want to make good choices too?
Thomas, Lutsitania was WWI, not WWII, but it was just the most extreme example of a growing trend. The Germans were getting desperate because of the stalemate in the war so they began unrestricted submarine warfare, which means they were sinking ships from any nation that were heading to one of the belligerents' ports. If you look at history, how a war is judged is mostly about how the leaders at the time were able to spin it and how quick and bloodless it was. The Spanish-American War was based on an "attack" on an American ship in Havana that was probably in reality an accident. But the war only lasted three months and was a huge success, and our troops lost more men to disease than the war. The enemy were the Spanish who no one particularly cared about. Does anyone remember why we invaded Grenada or care about it? No. It was quick and easy. Even in wars that eventually proved unpopular like Vietnam and Iraq, they were popular as long as we seemed to be winning. The American people will only give you so long to win, and then they start questioning your purpose and demanding an end. Even in the Civil War, in summer of 1864 most people thought Lincoln would never be re-elected because the war seemed to be dragging on and most people had started questioning if it was worth it. The Dems were running a candidate who wanted to make a peace agreement no matter the terms. If not for a few big wins before the election, we could have easily lost the war because of public opinion. The point is, if Iraq had really been over when Bush stood on the aircraft carrier with the mission accomplished banner, the vast majority of people would have been happy with it. It's only because it kept going that people really started looking into it closer.
Thomas:
Yes, I know you are laying the 60 percent split on the Democrats. Like I said, the Dems developed Freddie and Fannie, and Clinton repealed the Glass-Steagall Act separating investment and savings banking. Both of these together turned out to be a toxic combination that set the stage for our second economic meltdown.
More later when I have the time.
Former WV Mom,
Again, I don't doubt a word you say. The world is really different from one family to another. One thing excellent is you are dedicated to your kids as we are dedicated to our kids.
Speaking of tattoos both my older daughters threatened to get them. I am totally against any tattoo on the body and told them if they got them they would be on their own. Thankfully, they backed down on the tattoo issue. Even though tattoos are widespread these days, I think they are distasteful and ugly. Each and every single one of them. I like the human body the way God made it. I stopped watching professional basketball because I started feeling it was a Tatto Show instead of an NBA game.
You seem to understand that rebellion is very common amongst teenagers even though your kids have not been involved in a major rebellion. My youngest daughter is in love with the "loser of all losers." Or she thinks she is in love with him. I am sure it is an infatuation.
Anyway, I threw him out of my home permanently. He is not even allowed within 100 yards of my home. He is a thief and a druggie and I think my daughter wants to save him from himself and be his SAVIOUR. She is way over her head and thinks she knows what she is doing.
Anyway, thankfully her car broke down and we salvaged it for 175 dollars to the junk yard. (BTW it was a FORD and it was Found on the Road Dead...lol...) She wants me to help her buy a new car and I told her over my dead body. That when she dumps this idiot, I will help her buy a car. So far she has chosen the idiot over a car and she has been without wheels for a month.
I guess she will need her wheels to go to school. So we will see who is more important, school or the "loser of all losers."
I am hoping she will come out of this rebellious temper tantrum soon. He also does not have a car due to license suspensions so they're in "love" but have no means of seeing each other. Yes, this is the daughter that is competing for a National Crown in Mrytle Beach in JAZZ and HIP HOP dating the "loser of all losers."
I am a very strong willed person. I really don't care if she misses her second year of college. Of course I cut her allowance to. And she does not have a job because her dance group requires her to dance 50-70 hours especially in recent weeks as they are determined to go for the National Championship and not only compete but win it.
Anyway, I learned when I was younger time can heal infatuations and crazy love. I feel the longer we can keep her separated from this bum, MOTHER TIME may solve the problem of this "relationship." Hopefully, she will find something better to do with her TIME when dance season is over than hang around a bum.
What advice do you have Former WV Mom? Most neighbors and friends tell me the more I pressure her the more she goes the other way and to leave her to act her insanity out. I left her alone for a few months but her SAVIOUR BOND with the low life got stronger instead of weaker, so I am no longer taking the advice of neighbors and friends since it did not work.
I am putting maximum pressure on her and I think my will is stronger than her will and I will break her will. I am determined to do that and I hope I succeed.
The only thing I am doing for her is sheltering her and providing food for her. No extras. I think she is surviving OK and we are, since this DANCING she does is very time consuming and demanding. They expend so much energy and calories there practicing that even though she is slender and very athletic she needs to eat double servings for each meal. She sleeps like a lamb each night due to exhaustion from dance so we know where she is each night....in her bed where she should be. I guess the busier one can keep thier kids the less chance they can get in trouble during their rebellious teenage years.
After her dance extravaganza is completed in early August we will see what she decides to do with her time and life.
Since I won't be paying for her education while she "loves" this bum, she will have to get a job to pay for her own education and wheels to get there. I suspect she will be working so many hours to make ends meet and if you throw in study time, she will have no TIME for the bum. At least that is my plan for now.
Anyway, thanks for the enlightening exchange.
What does George Soros' partner have to say about the current US Government policies?
..................
Rogers: America Bordering On Communism
http://moneynews.newsmax.com/streettalk/jim_rogers/2009/07/15/235777.html?s=al&promo_code=837A-1
Investor extraordinaire Jim Rogers has harsh words for the government’s interventionist economic policy.
That policy, which he dates back to the Bush administration, verges on communism, he told Moneynews's Dan Mangru in an interview.
“America now owns the car industry. America owns the mortgage industry. America owns a lot of the insurance industry,” Rogers said.
“Karl Marx must be somewhere standing up in his grave cheering.” And why is that? “America has become a socialist and maybe even communist nation in many ways,” Rogers said.
In Asia, by contrast, “they’re not doing that. In Asia, they’re getting rid of state and government ownership,” he said.
As for stimulus, Rogers said that President Bush approved two packages, President Obama one, and now there’s talk of a fourth.
“The first stimulus didn’t work. The second stimulus didn’t work. The third stimulus hasn’t worked,” he said. ................
..............Rogers isn’t too happy with the massive monetary easing the Fed has engineered under Chairman Ben Bernanke, either.
“Printing money has been tried many times throughout history in many countries,” he said. “It has never worked in the long term; it has never worked in the medium-term. Occasionally, it has worked in the short term.”
Still, he says, “Printing money is going to lead to serious problems down the road.” (translation: hyper-inflation and currency-collapse)
The amounts involved are staggering, Rogers said. “They’ve already injected huge amounts of money into the system. The Fed has more than tripled its balance sheet in the past year or so.”
The federal government “has increased its own debt by four, five, six times,” he said..............
To: By what the? on July 15, 2009 12:34 PM
Dude, I am not the one who spoke of a conspiracy of string-pulling. i was just clarifying for you that the Kennedys raised huge dollars for Obama.
Note that only the most naive believe that this level of fundraising does NOT result in a quid pro quo.
In fact, if you are ever "lucky" enough to go to the WH and meet a President, you will find that there are different locations (ie oval versus other rooms), handshake styles, and possible gifting (pens, pics, pics w/ sigs, etc) based on donations.
The LARGEST and best of these goes to those who bundle/arrange for the largest sums, as the Kennedy's did. These same people are at the top of the pecking order when it comes to ambassadorships.
One belief out there is that Caroline was to get Hil's Senate seat, but to credit the NY community, they did not fall for it.
To: What the?
I think it was you defending the proposed Kennedy National Healthcare act and said the Euro &Canada models were superior. If not, this is for whoever did write that.
Let me add some facts for us all to ponder:
>>Currently in Canada there are 800,000 people on a waiting list of 18 weeks or longer for imperative care & tests
>>Britain has a 1 million person waiting list to get into a hospital, with a 200,000 person waiting list to get on the waiting list!
>>Britain currently cancels (at the last minute) aprrox. 100,000 surgeries a year based on payback mosels (this is over and above the surgeries they never approve in the first place)
>>>The United States system has the highest survival rates in the world in 13 of the 16 most common cancers. Example? In the U.S., the prostate survival rate is 91.8%, while in France it is 73.7% and England is at 51%
Finally, you mentioned infant mortality rates. I would point out that you might want to research what constitutes infant mortality. I say this because one og the highest rated countries a very civilized far=noth European country) counts children who die in the first few weeks of live as NOT having been born, thus not in their death stats.
To: What the?
Dude,
Only the most naive would believe that there is no quid pro quo for the heavy fundraising performed by those who bundle and organize large groups of donors (like the Kennedy clan did with Obama).
It is these "bundlers" that are at the top of the favor list.
If you are ever "lucky" enough to visit the Wh and meet a President, the level of donations has a pecking order that determines where you meet him (oval, etc0, what type of handshake you get (or don;t get), and whether you get a gift, such as a pen, pic, or pic & signature.
As you can hopefully guess, the bundlers like the Kennedy's get all the top treatment. In fact, this is also the pecking order for ambassadorships.
There is a common belief that the quid pro quo for the Kennedy support and fundraising was twofold:
1)Support for a Kennedy Healthcare Bill so Ted can die with a legacy (that being the same old program he has been pushing for 40 years), and
2)Caroline would get Hil's vacated Senate seat. To gove credit to the NY population, they did not accept this outcome
[note to all: sorry if this posted twice]
Thomas:
I'm grabbing little snippets of time whenever I can.
The German/Japanese alliance was called the Axis Pact and it was signed in 1936 or 1937, can't remember which. Both Germany and Japan had expansionist ambitions. Japan was miffed at the U.S. because it was attempting to limit their expansion into China by interfering with their fuel supply. So Japan made an agreement with Hitler that they would assist each other in winning the war and then divide "ownership" of the world between them. So when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor and the U.S. declared war on them, that's why Germany two days later declared war on the U.S., because of their pact with Japan. Big mistake on Hitler's part. Huge.
Funny thing is, I saw a program on the History channel a while ago that said upon the war's end, the Allies found documentation that indicated Hitler was working on a plan to declare war on Japan after WWII. He had no intention of sharing ownership of the world with the Japanese. No honor among thieves.
Chris Magee, moderator on July 16, 2009 11:13 AM
What the? on July 16, 2009 6:15 PM
_______________
Just my luck I've entered a debate with most likely two history majors? Oh well, I should have googled the Lusitania, but thank you for the history lesson. I believe it is true that Presidents are forever linked with the events that occur during their time in office - whether it is completely their fault or not. Bush will be the 9/11 and the Iraq war president, and history will treat him as such although I am hopeful there is a reasonable balance.
That's probably why those Presidents still living are always trying to promote their legacies while they can.
Chris, I was going to scold you for being part of the liberal media, but figured you would have a good answer for that as well. I do want to mention that the way the wars and events are covered today put today's public officials under much more scrutiny than any of those in the past. Some of the bombing runs in WWII that leveled complete cities are not possible today due to the coverage and outrage that would surely follow.
I really liked the Grenada reference as well - can you believe we joined with the Jamaican military to defeat the grenadians?
You're right, Thomas, I was a history major, and America's wars is one of the areas I specialize in because I believe they are among the most transformational moments in history. I've said before that I think it would be interesting to speculate how the Bush 43 presidency would have gone without the Sept. 11 attacks, because he came into office as someone who planned to focus on domestic programs and who was expected to stay out of foreign affairs, but 9/11 changed that completely. You're right that we'd never get away with things like the firebombing of Japan or the attack on Dresden today. It was a different time and for most people the more enemy dead, the better, civilian or not. While I am in the liberal media, no one who knows me would consider me a liberal, and I work with a lot of conservatives. I try to view history through the lens of the time it happened. If you try to judge historical events by modern values it really isn't fair or productive.
Chris,
The tide turned in Iraq when Bush pulled all of his PC restrictions off of the military and allowed them to win.
The surge started with 155MM howitzer shells (the American way of annihilating our enemies)raining into part of Baghdad for three days straight.
Once the Sunnis knew the gloves were off, they chose the silver over the lead.
An Intel officer told me the way you know you have eliminated a terrorist cell in Iraq is when you have killed or captured the Saudi running it. This guy had done both.
I would argue the tide turned in Iraq when the Sunni tribes started fighting the terrorists instead of fighting against us or passively allowing the terrorists to operate in their land. Vietnam demonstrated a lesson that continued to be true in Iraq and Afghanistan - if you don't have the population on your side, you will never win because the terrorists always have places to hide. When they hide among the villagers and you use your airstrikes and big guns to go after them, you turn more civilians against you. That was the flaw in the battle plan in Iraq. We were depending on our superior technology to overwhelm the Iraqis. Technology is great for beating armies, but once the armies are destroyed and it's small bands of insurgents fighting in the cities, the technology doesn't help you anymore. There was a good article in Time magazine recently about this as it applies to Afghanistan. The new general there told the troops to stop using airstrikes because they were killing too many civilians and turning people against us. Most civilians aren't on either side and just want to be left alone. If you want to get them on your side, you need to show that you are the better alternative and that you can protect them from the terrorists on the other side. As it is, the coalition strategy in Afghanistan has been to go after the terrorists, drive them out and then leave. As soon as we'd leave, the terrorists would just come back and retaliate against anyone who cooperated with us. Now the strategy is to recapture the territory and hold it, which you have to do if you're not just going to tread water.
Now I have some time to get caught up:
Thomas:
No history major here, sorry to say. Mine was a double in health care administration and psychology. I'm not surprised that Chris is; his command of this stuff is scary. I learned more than I cared to about the Lusitania when my youngest researched it for a school assignment two years ago. It's amazing how much we can pick up by proofing our kids history papers and references. I always knew Japan and Germany cooperated in WWII, but I rediscovered the Axis Pact a few years ago when helping my oldest with AP World History. Not very glamorous, but that's all it is.
Interesting trivia on the Lusitania before we put it to rest: I remember reading that the wreck of the Lusitania was found a year or so ago off the coast of Ireland where it sunk. On board was found millions of rounds of ammunition. So the German's hunch was correct--the Lusitania was being used to smuggle in war materials.
And regarding Grenada--Dat cris, mon!
T.B.:
"Remember that the Brits, French, and Germans all believed as the U.S. did regarding Iraq’s WMDs, but the French and Germans differed in how to handle the situation. Hans Blix of the IAEA later stated that he believed Hussein kept up the “lie” of WMDs as a deterrent, a fact confirmed by recent stories of Hussein’s FBI interrogations (though interestingly as a deterrent to Iran, not the U.S.)."
-------------------------------
Whoa, there! My memory of events is different. The Brits were the only ones who agreed with the U.S.'s WMD theory. I remember the French and Germans sitting around with their thumbs up their you-know-whats saying "show us more evidence", "give them more time" and refusing to commit to anything, as usual. It makes sense that Saddam would keep everyone guessing on the WMD thing as a deterrent to Iran, so I find that believable.
I also remember Congress giving Bush approval to act as he saw fit in Iraq because they felt the U.S. needed to send a unified message to Saddam that it was willing to go to war if he didn't shape up, but most felt this final step would not really be necessary. Surprise! It's like Congress was telling Bush, "yeah, we said you could, but nobody really thought you would!"
Maybe we should check with our resident expert. Chris?
I'm not really comfortable claiming to be an expert, but I remember it pretty much as T.B. describes it. Most of the world believed Hussein still had WMD, which is why the sanctions were still in place 12 years after the end of the Gulf War. The question wasn't so much if he had them but what we should do about it. The European countries wanted to go with more sanctions and U.N. resolutions, whereas Bush wanted action. In college I took a class on Middle Eastern history and we read a book on the U.N. inspections. I wish I could remember what it was called because I'd like to go back and read it. Anyway, this book had accounts by former U.N. weapons inspectors where they described Iraqi guards keeping them waiting at the front gates of sites they were trying to inspect while they could see trucks speeding out the back. This inspector had absolutely no question that there were WMD in Iraq. I certainly believed there was, not because Bush said so but because of other sources I had read on the subject. I am still very surprised they didn't find any and I still wonder if there might be some way they were hidden or smuggled out. It just doesn't seem to go with Saddam's personality to believe he just destroyed them as he was supposed to. I do think that how What The? describes the French and Germans is basically accurate though. I think they thought there were WMD in Iraq, but they wanted undeniable proof, and even if they had it I don't think they would have agreed on an attack because they were stuck on the diplomatic solution and didn't think the threat applied to them, and therefore a war was not in their national interest.
To Anonymous on July 16, 2009 5:12 PM
To Anonymous on July 16, 2009 5:14 PM
To Anonymous on July 16, 2009 9:53 PM
Good God, I'm being attacked by Anons! I can't tell which of you originally posted what, so I'm going to lump all my responses together and let you guys figure out which one applies to you:
Yes, I have been to the White House, along with a lot of other people on a tour. I didn't get anything when I went, but my two-year old at the time did toddle off into a roped off area and the secret service guys were very nice about it, if that counts.
I never claimed there wasn't a quid pro quo for heavy fundraising. It exists on both sides of the political aisle. This is part of "politics as usual". What I disputed was Anons claim that because the Kennedys were very good at fundraising for Obama, they were "pulling his strings" now that he was in the White House. This sounds like propaganda tinged with paranoia. Everyone knows the Kennedys did a lot of fundraising for Obama, why wouldn't they? Same party, same ideology. But the amount they raised didn't even break into the top 20, per a previous list I posted, unless they bundled their donations under the name of Goldman Sachs.
My favorites were, "One belief out there is that Caroline was to get Hil's Senate seat, but to credit the NY community, they did not fall for it" and "there is a common belief that the quid pro quo for the Kennedy's were two fold". So what if this belief is out there? Got any proof of that? People can believe anything they want. I heard today on the radio that there are tons of people who believe the first lunar landing 40 years ago was a hoax filmed on a movie lot. They have no proof of this, but they still believe it.
All I can say is if Caroline expected a Senate seat and Gov. S expected a bail out for their fund raising efforts, it hasn't worked out too well for them, has it? And health care reform was promised by Obama during his campaign, so he's not passing it now just for Ted. So exactly why are you griping about this? Slow conspiracy week?
I was not the one who was defending the proposed Kennedy National Healthcare Act and said the Euro Canada models are superior. Nor have I seen any discussions on infant mortality rates. I was the one who posted my personal experience with my mother in response to a blogger's post stating that people over 50 will likely be sent home to die without care under a government option like they are in England. I was simply stating this is BS. My experience shows that this happens to the elderly here in our country right now under our current system, that this is not exclusive to a "government option". My brother has worked and lived in Germany for 20 years. They have socialized medicine, and he says the care has always been excellent. What happened to our mother here in the U.S. would be scandalous by German standards and would never occur there. So all the BS promoting the fear of lack of care is just that, BS. Don't waste your time, I know better.
And the stats you've listed are worthless unless you post their source. Everyone knows stats can be manipulated to prove anything, and without knowing the source and determining its validity these statements are worthless. I don't take everything I read at face value. So like I told the other blogger, stuff your data unless you can substantiate it.
I think that's it.
Chris, nice job but you left out some important facts including why some of use believe the UN has dirty hands in the Iraq War if you wish to call it that. Officals with the UN were circumventing and negating the value of the embargo by taking oil futures under the table in return for aid to Iraq. These amount to hundreds of millions of dollars in bribery and corruption that has not been dealt with to this very day. On one hand the UN weapons inspectors are working officially while behind the scenes UN corruption totally negated so called "diplomatic" efforts at resolving the issues the rest of the world had with Irag. And it is always amazing that simple people can only call it GW's war.
It appears Naperville is nowhere to be seen in Money Magazine's '100 Best Places to Live'.
No longer number one, not in the top ten, not even an honorable mention in the top 100. It must be our high taxes and the high housing costs. The only towns in Illinois that made it to the top 100 are Batavia (56), Buffalo Grove (65), and Glen Carbon (91).
While you obviously hate tattoos, they have become a much more accepted form of expression in the last 10-15 years. They are becoming more and more common. As far as the human body being beuatiful as it is comment: do you or your daughters have pierced ears? Are you okay with people getting plastic surgery? I think if you are against tattoos for that reason, you have to be against all of those other things for the same reasons.
As I said, my daughter put a lot of thought into her tattoo, had valid reasons for wanting one, and got one that has strong personal beliefs behind it and is in an inconspicuous place. That tattoo does not impact how we function as a family, it does not impact how she acts around us or towards us. I believe as parents we need to pick our battles. Superficial battles such as hairstyles, clothing, piercing, tattoos, etc do not impact how we get along on a daily basis. Like I said, she discussed it with me in detail. My final word on it was that she was an adult and could make her own decision, but needed to think it through completely. In the end this was a decision with strong personal merit, not a tattoo that she wants to show off to others and not a spur of the moment decision.
I think I will take my daughter's tiny inconspicuous religious tattoo over a loser boyfriend any day.
Advice:
1. Taking away education could be more harmful in the long term. Education may be exactly what she needs to break away from this person. Personally, I would encourage her to look at colleges in another state or at least more than 3 hours away. Distance and a new environment with new friends may give her the time she needs to see him in a different light. Even if it takes financial sacrifice, it may be worth it.
2. I would have to say that in some ways, it is too late and you may have to ride some of this out. I will agree that pushing too hard may make things worse. I think that my kids didn't rebel due to the work we put in from the time they were born. Logical consequences were always part of the discussion and punishments in our home. I was talking to a friend with very young kids last week and she was asking how we raised the kids. She told me at that time that what we did seemed to follow the principles of a discipline technique called "love and logic." I was just looking at those on Amazon, and "looking inside" like you can there. I think that may be very close to the style of parenting we had in our home from day one. We are a very logical family overall, not much drama, or over emotional outbreaks. I noticed they have on for teens... look it up. from what I saw online there may be some good tips in there.
3. Does your daughter talk to you when she is upset with her boyfriend? If so, instead of telling her what to do or advising her, push it back at her. Say "what do you think about that? What are you going to do about that? How do you feel about that?"
4. When she had been caught in situations that aren't what you want, don't yell or threaten, ask her how she found herself in the situation, why was she there, is this what she wants to be involved in, etc. Make everything about her and her choices. This may get her thinking differently Instead of being a person who was put in a situation by friends, the thought becomes that she was involved in the decisions putting her in that situation. This could start her thinking differently too.
All of these are the kinds of things we have done with our kids all along. It was always about decision making, logical consequences of choices and actions, and their personal responsibilities in those areas. Along with the fact that we loved them. As a result, they were quite prepared in those areas when they finally hit the teenage years. They were prepared for making the right decisions and had already thought them through. We had discussed all the issues that might come up. When I worried about my son when he went away to college and how we would deal wit the atmosphere there, it was one of his former coaches who told me not to worry... that he had the strongest moral compass of any kid he'd ever known and would not make a bad decision. He was right.
In the meantime, good luck with all of this and good luck with the dance competitions.
To: By what the? on July 16, 2009 11:18 PM
Your memory is incorrect --- literally every first world intelligence community said Iraq had WMD. In fact he did, as we all know, as he used them on his own citizens.
The difference was that the other governments did not want to use force under any circumstances, especially the Russians & French as they both had very large oil deals with Saddam.
ToBy what the? on July 17, 2009 1:11 AM:
As I said, I wasn't sure who talked up the Euro/Cd models.
As far as stuffing data, do your own work! Until you cut me a check, I don't work for you.
Your info is strictly anecdotal, so I give it the weight it deserves. I have pretty good info/experience on the systems I alluded to, and they are worse than ours.
Why?
Because crap at a good price is still crap! I wil submit that any system that does not allow a person access to treatment when it is needed is, by definition, crap. Does it happen here (per your anecdotal story)? I'm sure it does, but it not systematic or institutional [yet!]
Our system is sterling at an awful price. Our politicians should be working on real solutions to get the price down, like:
>>inter-state insurance competition
>>real tort reform
>>ensuring all programs are used by those who are eligible
>>and perhaps by making insurance coverage mandatory (like auto insurance).
Doing this will get us down to the real number of uninsured, which would be the next problem to resolve.
Conscientious Observer, Naperville's not on the Money magazine list this year because this year the magazine focused on small towns. Every year they change their criteria and this year Naperville was just too big to be considered.
THE BIGGER THE LIE THE BETTER
Whats the breakdown on "uninsured Americans"?
*10 million illegal aliens
*10 million who earn more than $75K a year and don't want to pay.
*10 million mostly males between 18 to 25 who probably don't get sick anyhow since they are peak.
Of the remaining 20 million, many are eligible for existing govt programs and don't sign up.
Anyone walking into a hospital gets care, so everyone has medical care today.
Like the: global warming crisis, the medical crisis, the stimulus crisis, the stiff the bondholders of Unionized Companies crisis, the medical records crisis, the save Goldman by laundering money through AIG crisis, crisis, crisis etc etc etc.........The phrase that sums it up the best is "the bigger the lie the better".
..."During the years 1936-38, the National Socialist Party of Germany was seeking was whereby they might justify their military and social actions. Among other things, Adolph Hitler wanted possession of Czechoslovakia, Austria, and Poland; and he wanted to annihilate the Jewish race. Joseph Goebells was assigned the responsibility of accomplishing these tasks, and that of creating good "reasons" for doing so. It was then that Goebells adopted the phrase: Tell a Lie That is Big Enough, and Repeat it Often Enough, and the Whole World Will Believe It. He assumed the world would not be gullible enough to believe "little lies," but the bigger the lie, the more likely it is that people would eventually accept it as true. By the use of misinformation, negative propaganda, movies, and various dramatic presentations, the Nazi Minister of Propaganda was successful beyond the generation's realization. "...
Like 1930's Germany, the USA now has a goose-stepping-rubber-stamp-legislature that implements the will of the Leader.
The US Congress doesn't even pretend to be anything other than a rubber stamp, they don't even bother to read or debate sweeping legislation.
Good article on another master propagandist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels
To Anonymous on July 17, 2009 10:50 AM:
First, let's clarify what a WMD is:
"A weapon of mass destruction (WMD) is a weapon that can kill large numbers of humans and/or cause great damage to man-made structures (e.g. buildings), natural structures (e.g. mountains), or the biosphere in general.
The term is often used to cover several weapon types, including nuclear, biological, chemical (NBC) and radiological weapons. Additional terms used in a military context include atomic, biological, and chemical warfare (ABC) and chemical, biological, radiological, and nuclear (CBRN) warfare.
The phrase was predominantly used in reference to nuclear weapons during the Cold War; following the collapse of the Soviet Union and increasing tensions between the Middle East and the Western powers, the term broadened to its modern, more inclusive definition. It entered widespread usage in relation to the U.S.-led 2003 invasion of Iraq."
Everyone knows Saddam had chemical WMDs at one point, he used them on the Kurds in the 1980s. And many of these old, DEGRADED weapons were found. However:
"According to then-President of the United States George W. Bush and the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of that time; Tony Blair, the reasons for the invasion were "to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction (WMD), to end Saddam Hussein's support for terrorism, and to free the Iraqi people."[16] According to Blair, the trigger was Iraq's failure to take a "final opportunity" to disarm itself of nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons that U.S. and coalition officials called an immediate and intolerable threat to world peace.[17] Although some remnants of pre-1991 production were found after the end of the war, U.S. government spokespeople confirmed that these were not the weapons for which the U.S. went to war.[18][19] In 2005, the Central Intelligence Agency released a report saying that no weapons of mass destruction had been found in Iraq.[20]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq
To repeat: The weapons that were found in Iraq WERE NOT the weapons for which the U.S. went to war.
Are we clear?
Iraq and Afghanistan apples and oranges?
Iraq, brutal Sunni dictatorship run by tribal leaders loyal to Saddam.
Afghanistan, already had their Islamic dictatorship run by Bin Ladin and his puppets. The Pashtoons (sp) in the south were the tribes allied with the Taliban and Bin Laden. These tribes are still loyal to the Taliban and Bin Laden in many cases. These tribes are also at war with the government of Pakistan and its other tribes and sects.
Don't be surprised if the Pakistani's next offensive into the Pashtoon areas starts the with total annihilation of a town and tribe via artillery to open the negotiations with the other tribes.
what the? on July 17, 2009 1:23 PM
According to then-President of the United States George W. Bush and the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of that time; Tony Blair, the reasons for the invasion were "to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction (WMD), to end Saddam Hussein's support for terrorism, and to free the Iraqi people."
_________________________________-
Hey What the?, Based on the blurb above from Wikipedia there were 3 reasons for invasion.
1. Disarm Iraq of WMD
2. End Saddam's support for terrorism
3. Free the iraqi People
So I guess we (U.S. / Bush and Blair) achieved 2 out of 3? I could really stretch this and try to make the case that all 3 goals were achieved, because there are currently no WMD in Iraq!! But given the fact they were never found in the first place I'll stick with 2 out of 3.
I don't care for the tone of some of the posters here, but one of the points made was that the embargo was not working and the UN had some dirty players involved. I believe these two issues also had an effect on Bush and why he believed the embargo would drag on for years without success.
To Anonymous on July 17, 2009 11:01 AM:
This is getting tedious.
Of course my experience was anecdotal. I SAID IT WAS. But it still disproves the most popular propaganda point of those opposed to having a government health care option in the U.S.--that refusal of care only happens in socialized medicine. It does not. Health insurance companies here in the U.S. refuse care all the time; that's how they stay profitable. And you can pull up all the studies you want indicating that socialized medicine is crap, but again, my brother is an American citizen who has lived in Germany for 20 years and he has had no problem with it. And since he has a lifetime of experience with both forms of health care, private and socialized, I think he's a pretty good judge. And I'm not talking about price, I'm talking about quality of care. But I do admit I can only refer to Germany, I have had no direct experience with other countries.
You stated that "any system that does not allow a person access to treatment when it is needed is, by definition, crap." Then by your definition, the U.S. health care system IS CRAP, because it happens here all the time. It happened to my mother just three months ago, that was the point of the story.
I think the U.S. does have sterling health care. BUT IF MILLIONS OF OUR CITIZENS CAN'T AFFORD IT, WHAT GOOD IS IT TO THEM?
Any if it's so easy to bring down the costs of health care, why hasn't it been done by now? Because the health care industry wants to maintain the status quo as a for profit system. The changes you suggested have never and will never be allowed by the health care industry. Cost controlling measures are a threat to profits. So is a government option, that's why they are lobbying against it so frantically. You guys make a lot of noise about the government controlling your choices, but big business has been doing it for years.
What I'm really interested in is what are you REALLY afraid of with a government option for people who can't afford mainstream health care? Is it the slippery slope of socialism that worries you? The mean-spirited belief of some conservatives--I've got mine, what others don't have isn't my problem? Even if the government option is crap, isn't it still better than nothing for many Americans? Isn't it still better than millions of uninsured showing up for expensive emergency treatment and health care companies passing those costs on to us in the form of higher premiums and copays? What is the harm in giving this a try?
P.S. to Anon:
I think denial of care in the U.S. has become systematic or institutional, we are already there. HMOs routinely do this, it's the best way to cut costs. And denial of care is not institutional in Germany, like opponents claim. You've got it backwards--there is a lot more denial of care in our private system based on inability to pay or other reasons than there is in Germany's system.
And to the Anon who said "Anyone walking into a hospital gets care, so everyone has medical care today."
Ack!!! Didn't some Republican senator say this about health care recently and got absolutely scorched for his ignorance? By law, Anon, hospitals have to provide EMERGENCY treatment to anyone, they can't let people die outside their doors because they can't pay. This is not the same as medical care. Not all medical care is an emergency, just acute, life-threatening conditions. A ruptured appendix or gun shot wound is considered an emergency, chemotherapy for a cancer patient is not. People can be refused medical care if it is not acutely life-threatening and they cannot show proof that they can pay for it. Most health care falls into the non-emergency category. Thus, many Americans don't have access to our sterling health care because they simply can't afford it.
And when they do finally get sick enough to get treatment at an emergency room, the cost is then astronomical. Acute care is extremely expensive, and hospitals can't afford to eat the costs and keep their doors open, so the costs for this treatment gets passed on to those of us who do have insurance in the form of higher premiums, copays and deductibles, in addition to rising medical costs overall. It's a vicious cycle with no end in sight.
To: By what the? on July 17, 2009 1:23 PM
Like I said --- he had WMDs (as per your definition). So what is your point?
To: By what the? on July 17, 2009 2:29 PM
You're right --- you are getting tedious!
Now you condemn an entire system based on small subsets of deviance? Hardly a useful stat. I would agree that your mother's experience as you described it sucked. Coulda been the group you were dealing with --- I don't know.
You mix affordability with access --- Don't, as they are two different things. Access is not the issue!
As I wrote more than once, our system is too expensive, but the care it provides is the best in the world.
Most of the remedies I mentioned earlier actually don't hit profits at all if they are all implemented, so your theory on a cabal of big businesses conspiring to screw all of us does not hold up.
As was written in the SUN earlier, change the tort system tomorrow by making the government the insurer of all medical malopractice policies ---voila! Instant decreases in overall costs.
Allow competition between states (this is the only one with a potential for definite profit issues to individual companies, but theoreticall little to none on the ehtire industry.
What is the real obstacle here? Trial lawyers and theer need to have access to class-action suits against doctors, drug companies, and hospitals.
Your zeal to turn this into an argument to bash conservatives tips your hand as to your actual agenda.
There is nothing mean-spirited about having beliefs and thoughts, yet you (and your liberal bretheren) lack the tolerance and openmind required to accept that others have beliefs that also count.
You mention the "I have mine" argument, yet recent data shows the Liberals have more wealth than conservatives.
Now, we both agree that there needs to be something out there for the ten to fifteen million out there who really don't have any insurance OR a future potential to have it. I do not see the Kennedy plan as either a viable solution or a true "end means" answer. Any company that does not drop it's coverage for it's employees and turn to the "gov't option" for 8% of payroll would run the risk of being sued by shareholders (there's those crazy trial lawyers again!) for financial negligence.
All in all, I think both you and I see and acknowledge a problem exists ---- we disagree as to it's magnitude,how it should be fixed (my priority is on cost savings and following current code & laws first), and I certainly do NOT believe that just because the current system has issues of cost and availablity that ANY change will make it better.
TO:
By Anonymous on July 17, 2009 3:16 PM
*Denial of care argument, are there any metrics out there? I'm open to it.
I know someone who died of plaque in the arteries feeding their brain which would have been treating in the US. In Australia they told him there was no treatment. He only found out while visiting here, having a problem and ending up in one of our many fine hospitals. By the time he visited the US, 8 years had passed and the problem had become untreatable. He died about a year later from a stroke caused by the plaque.
* Of the 20 million that don't have coverage, and may need it, how many are eligible for existing programs and not signed up? Lets guess a number, 10 million who could be addressed through some kind of outreach program possibly run at emergency rooms where these people show up.
* That leaves 10 million (guess) as the actual existing problem, with the other 250 million people already covered under our existing system which is the best.
Like real life, if you have more money you can drive a Benz. Obama and the Democrats want to force everyone out of their Caddies, and Chevy's and into Yugos, everyone. Just because a very few currently have no car? Forgot, Obama and the Congress will be exempt from their health plan.
This is punishment, not a program to improve the situation. This is the contempt for the middle class that spewed out of Wright for 20 years while Obama sat there with his kids, listening.
IMHO the proposed medical plan is driven by envy, hate and class warfare, plain and simple. Not out of a desire to get everyone good insurance.
If the problem is escalating costs, the driver is law suits. Lets identify the causes of the suits and solve them.
If it will improve you hearing, every time Obama or one of his supporters uses the word "rich" substitute the word "Jews", same rhetoric, same contempt.
To: By Anonymous on July 17, 2009 3:16 PM
I understand what you are saying, but perhaps I was not clear enough in my earlier post --- I posted "...does not allow a person access to treatment when it is needed" (new bold for emphasis)
By access (or denial in many cases through organizations like NICE), I met either NO treatment, or in the case of cancers waiting 3 to 8 months for, say, radiation therapy. I'm sure the cancer is happy to wait for the treatment!
Of course, this all contributes greatly to the greater cancer survival rates in the U.S.
As posted earlier, cost is THE issue in our healthcare system.
If you ever want a real treat in futility, spend some time researching and trying to get a handle on the pricing system in the U.S. healthcare industry AND the reimbursement system particularly Medicare/Medicaid. Those two programs are primarliy responsible for the exhorbitant "list" pricing of all medical procedures in the U.S., and ironically the highest prices are charged to those who aren't covered and theoretical can't afford it!
As a final comment for now, just think about this: we already have a single payer healthcare system in the U.S. --- it is called Medicare. We can ALL see how efficient and effective that program is!
to Anonymous on July 17, 2009 3:47 PM
Like I said --- he had WMDs (as per your definition). So what is your point?
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Ok, I see you need more help.
The WMDs that were found were pre-1991 and degraded (meaning characterized by degeneration of structure and function; in other words, they had exceeded their shelf life). I'll repeat for the third time: these were not the weapons the U.S. went to war for. Everyone thought Saddam had current, functioning programs to develop chemical, biological, and most importantly, nuclear weapons. The only stuff found had been manufactured prior to the 1991 sanctions and embargo set in place after the Gulf War, so it looked like the sanctions had worked, after all. Saddam may have been planning to resume his WMD programs after the sanctions were lifted, but the sanctions outlived him. The U.S. and its allies did not engage in a costly war simply to confiscate a pile of expired chemical weapons. That's why in 2005, the Central Intelligence Agency released a report saying that no weapons of mass destruction had been found in Iraq.[20]"
To keep insisting otherwise just makes you sound simple.
To Anonymous on July 17, 2009 4:11 PM--
How rude! I didn't say YOU were getting tedious, I said THIS is, the constant back and forth of not understanding each other. Honestly, some of the comments I see on this blog are so full of propaganda and misinformation I don't see how some of these folks get through the day.
Obama is not forcing any of you to do anything. If you like your Chevys, by all means keep them. He simply wants to make Yugos available to people who have no wheels so the rest of us don't have to keep giving them free rides. He is taking NOTHING away from you. But you are so afraid any change in the status quo MIGHT that you're beside yourselves.
My family is fortunate in that we have an excellent PPO. Nothing has ever been denied, we have great access to any care we want or need. But we pay a premium for it, and I understand that not all Americans can afford what we have. I've also seen that every year over the past 10 years, my premiums, copays and deductions get bigger while the benefits get smaller. And the cost the uninsured place on our health care system is one of the reasons.
I graduated 23 years ago with a degree in health care administration. In all this time, NOTHING has changed in our health care system. The problems we have today are the EXACT SAME PROBLEMS we discussed when I was in college. The only thing that has changed in health care over the years is the price. Everyone was concerned abut escalating costs THEN; I can only imagine what my profs would say about costs now.
Something has to change, people, and time is up. If there were any ways to control costs and improve access, it could have been done anytime in the last 23 years, but it has not. The problem is so multifaceted--the legal profession blocking tort reform, the AMA, the health care industry, the insurance companies, the pharmaceutical companies all blocking any kind of reform for fear that it will cut into their profits--and it might. But that is not reason enough not to try it.
I am for providing a government plan for those who would want it, and my biggest concern is not the fear mongering that has been brought up here but something that hasn't been touched upon. We like our health care program. What if the govern. option is so much better or cheaper that our employer decides to switch to it? I realize that it could happen, but I'm willing to take that chance. It beats doing nothing until the day when the price of care gets so exorbitant that not even we can afford it.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2009/07/17/ron_paul_obama_will_destroy_the_dollar.html
Ron Paul interview, touches on a lot of subjects, heath care is at the end. Worth a listen from the only honest person who ran from President last time, or only one who knew what they were talking about.
Thomas:
Shame on you, Thomas, you're baiting. You know the answer to your own comment.
The U.S. NEVER would have gone into Iraq on reasons 2 and 3 alone. Only #1 was seen as a threat to our national security, 2 and 3 were just icing. Thank you for not trying to stretch a justification for 3. The goal was to DISARM, you can't disarm what isn't there. You almost sounded like WMD Anon above!
It will be interesting if decades from now, a stash of weapons believed to have been Saddam's is discovered somewhere, like the ammo found on the Lusitania. It could happen.
In the meantime, it's good you're satisfied with 2 and 3, because that's what we got. But I wonder if the families of all the dead soldiers are as satisfied with that as well.
P.S. The two anons above are me, in case you didn't already know.
PPS to Thomas:
Oops! Correction--I meant, "Thank you for not trying to stretch a justification for 1."
It's past my bedtime.
By Former WV Mom on July 17, 2009 9:45 AM
While you obviously hate tattoos, they have become a much more accepted form of expression in the last 10-15 years.
As I said, my daughter put a lot of thought into her tattoo, had valid reasons for wanting one, and got one that has strong personal beliefs behind it and is in an inconspicuous place. I believe as parents we need to pick our battles. Like I said, she discussed it with me in detail. My final word on it was that she was an adult and could make her own decision, but needed to think it through completely. In the end this was a decision with strong personal merit, not a tattoo that she wants to show off to others and not a spur of the moment decision.I think I will take my daughter's tiny inconspicuous religious tattoo......
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It seems like you are against tattoos too but reluctantly accepted this inconspicous religious tattoo that can barely be seen....you seem very thrilled that it is very inconspicous. I would be too if I lost control.
You seem to believe that the decision should be made by the teenager and the hope will be that she will make the right decision.
Tattoos are permanent and most teenagers are immature and make many bad decisions while learning during the growing up process. Did you hear about that teenage girl in London who went to a tattoo parlor and got 53 stars on the left part of her face and later regretted it? Do you feel she should have been given the right to make such a stupid decision that she will surely regret for the rest of her life and have life time effects on her, her love life and her career? Parents have to be in control until their kids develop maturity and wisdom.
I can not tell you the number of girls I have met with tattoos of their former boyfriends on their breasts....yes former boyfriends that they "loved so much" and now broke up with. I have also seen pictures of former boyfriends and girl friends on shoulders and arms.
I do know a neighborhood kid who is attempting to remove the picture of his girl friend off his chest. He informs me he has been through over 35 laser treatments over 2 years at great cost to remove it. He seems like he successfully got it off but one chest is red and one chest is white now....and there is nothing the doctors can do to make them the same color again. It seems like they have to fry your body to get the ink out. How could anyone in this world accept ink to be inserted in the only body God gave them and they will ever have? There is no second chance for a new body like there is for a new car you total.
I don't think anyone should be allowed to get a tattoo until the age of 25. And they must be sober with a one week waiting period to ponder their decision.....just like those who go to buy a gun have a waiting period in most cases.
Are you telling me former WV Mom, that if you daughter made a decision to put 53 stars on the left side of her face you will allow her if she thought out her decision over time and discussed it with you? Are you telling me if she wants to put the picture or name of her boyfriend in an inconspicous place on her breast it would be OK with you? Why would you want to torture her next boyfriend with the picture of her former boyfriend on her breast?
Why not pressure your daughter into sanity as I try to do? Let us face it many times they think they know what they are doing but really don't know what they are doing. Most youngsters think their current lover is permanent. Permanence in those youth years means 3 months if they are lucky.
I think as parents we have a duty to protect our kids from themselves as much as we can and for as long as we can. I have an older child who now thanks me often for protecting her from her stupidity of those teenage years. She even wrote me a letter recently and told me she wanted to take care of me in my older years. I felt like I had succeeded....at least with this one child. A few more remain in the pipeline though.
Anyway, thanks for your advice. I really appreciate it. I am not sure it will work but I am willing to try anything. But without wheels the "love birds" are separated for now. We are going to try to spend as much time as possible in Myrtle Beach and hopefully Mother Time will heal all this "sick love for the loser of all losers."
Anonymous on July 18, 2009 12:53 AM
I can not tell you the number of girls I have met with tattoos of their former boyfriends on their breasts
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That sounds more of an indictment of the friends you keep or the places you frequent than the fact someone gets a tattoo. Also seems that you go to places other than the Tilted Kilt?
Here is where I have a problem with your responses. You tend to take things and then exaggerate them to the extreme.
For example: Your first line at the start "If you have teenagers who want to bring a large group of kids over to your home or even basement, do not allow them." and then going on to say that things will get stolen if people do have groups of teens in their homes.
Me getting to know the kids that come to my house all of a sudden means that I can magically determine honesty. Something I never claimed, yet you took to the extreme.
Me accepting my daughter's tiny tattoo means I would accept a bunch of stars on her face. Again, something I never said, but you took to the extreme. The teenagers you gave as examples of poor tattoo decisions I am sure did not put 6 months of thought into those decisions.
As I stated, my daughter spent 6 months thinking about it and discussing it with me. I am not against tattoos in general, just not crazy about ones that tend to be very prominent, or tend to be spur of a moment decision. My daughter put a lot of thought into this and discussed those thoughts with me. In the end, she was an adult and yes, after all of that, it was her decision to make. There was no "Stupidity" in her decision. She has always acted quite mature, has always thought things through, and has earned the right to make those decisions. She has a history of making good decisions. Decisions that she does not regret later. Again, she had no desire to have something that was prominent and would be something for everyone else to see. It was something that she wanted for her. She was starting college, knew that she would be meeting a lot of people, and knew that there could be situations that could come up where she might have to deal with elements of peer pressure. She knew that she would not have her WV Young LIfe people at school with her on a daily basis any more. The tattoo was something to remind her of the decisions she wanted to continue making. She was worried about her randomly assigned roommate, because from Facebook, they seemed to have entirely different ideas of what a fun social life was. And it did start out that way. But the interesting thing is that roommate stopped her partying about a month into the school year and started spending more and more time with my daughter on the weekends. Again, my daughter was able to influence someone to become a better person. That roommate saw how happy my daughter was on a daily basis and wanted to know why and started to getting involved in the things my daughter was involved in.
So why not "pressure my daughter into sanity" as you state. First of all, her tattoo was not an act of insanity, she was quite sane and rational about it. I have absolutely no issues with it at all. It's not my personal thing and not something I want on myself, but as I said before, she put a ton of thought into it. It is not something that she will look at years from now and wish she didn't have. Second, it has absolutely no impact on our family and how we treat each other and especially how she treats us. She is an amazing young woman, who respects her parents, respects the others around her, has a heart for people less fortunate than her, and seems to have a huge impact on the people who get to know her. Third, it will have no impact on her future prospects since it is not in a place anyone would see without her pointing it out. It was not something she did to follow the crowd, show off, or be "cool," which is why a lot of teens do get tattoos.
In our home, we have always discussed things, maybe even to the extreme. We have raised our kids to consider things carefully and logically, from when they were little and the taking a toy from someone else situations, to the adolescent years with examples of bad decisions teens have made that end up in the newspaper. The decisions they have made have been good ones. We have not had to ever "pressure" our kids to make decisions we felt were in their best interests. They have made good decisions themselves. And yes in this case my daughter's tattoo does fall in the area of a good decision. We do not try to control our kids and their decisions. Instead we have all along taught them the skills and helped them consider the information so that they could make thought out, informed decisions, ones that they will not regret in the long run. We have raised two kids who have become incredible young adults, who made the high school and teen years a joy in our home. And I am asked all the time by friends with younger children how we parented our kids so that they can have the same pleasant experiences we have had when their kids hit high school.
Again, my advice would be instead of "pressuring your child" you should question her and have her vocalize why she is making certain decisions. While it is probably too late to make a huge impact, since it is not inherent in her nature at this point, maybe it would at least get her thinking about why she makes certain choices, the results of those, and how she got to that point.
This will be my final response to you.
All along I have been trying to be a counterpoint to your initial statement that people should not allow groups of teens to hang out in their homes. All along I have been attempting to show that there is a way to handle things with your teens that may make the teen years be a pleasant even joyful experience. That there are many of us out there that have not had the same experiences that you have had. I NEVER stated that my experiences were the only things out there. I NEVER stated that your experiences were not possible. I stated at the beginning that I believed the issues you were having with theft in your home were related to the choices your teen was making in friends. I believe your last few posts have proved my point all along.
I hope that what other people on this blog (who may have read and followed our exchanges) will take from this discussion is that you can raise your kids in such a way that will minimize the issues you will have when they are teens. That there is a point where you need to allow your teens to make their own decisions, and if you have put the work in when they are younger, those decisions will be well thought out ones. That you don't necessarily need to entirely agree with every decision they make if they have thought it through and it is not something that impacts your family dynamic negatively. I hope that others will realize that by taking an interest in the teens your kids hang out with, by talking to them when they are in your home, showing that you value them as people, you may be able to have the same experiences that we have had.
In Borders last night, I was able to look through the entire copy of Parenting Teens with Love and Logic. I was amazed that so much of what we have done in our home does seem to follow the guidelines in that series. (I'll have to thank my friend who mentioned that parenting series when I saw her earlier this week. I will be recommending it to friends who ask me about how my teens turned out so good in the future.) I looked through the other books in the series a little bit. I would suggest to others out there, who may be looking for some tips, to try and investigate these and see if it is something that might work for them.
Never claimed my teens/young adults were perfect. But the decisions they have made have been thought out and decisions that they made, not ones we made for them. And most of the time, they have been the ones we wanted them to make. Neither has done things that they will regret at any time in the future.
At 6:30 this morning a convoy of idiots drove through my neighborhood honking their horns like mad. They drove back through about noon, blowing them again. This time I got to see them and they were mostly vans and cars, a lot of them with green balloons on them or green words painted on the windows. It's unlikely any of them will read this, but in case they do, it's really ignorant to drive down residential roads blaring your horns when most people are sleeping. I'm sure you're excited about whatever event you're going to, but keep it to yourselves. Unless they captured bin Laden, I don't want to hear it, and even if they did I could wait until I was awake.
The green words said, "WOOOO! Our big fat police pensions just kicked in!"
To: By Anonymous on July 17, 2009 5:31 PM
You are the sinple one! You again agree with me that he had WMDs, then you attack by saying they don't count.
It is simple: He had them, and we know he did becaiuse he used them, and we found some when we invaded.
Now, the fact that you would like to redefine WMD to fit only your argument is weak, simple, and void of any argumentative basis.
Sorry ---- so sad for you!
To: What the?
The following was part of the written articles for the invasion of Iraq that were presented to the Senate for their 77 to 23 vote to invade. Please note the liberal use of the words chemical and biological, and the reference to nukes.
"The Bush administration and its supporters in Congress say Saddam has kept a stockpile of chemical and biological weapons in violation of U.N. resolutions and has continued efforts to develop nuclear weapons."
I will also add, for historical reasons only, that we all need to remember that there were many more than 3 reasons written/stated for the invasion (I think it was 23 in total, but I really can't recall the exact number). We all fixate on only one, nukes, because the media put all of their reporting on that aspect and, consequentially, the administration put an inordinant (though not all) amount of P.R. inot the same aspect.
To: By Anonymous on July 17, 2009 8:19 PM
My bad on the tedious comment-- I take it back (as I really do enjoy the sport of arguing!)
For the record, I am not the Anon who refers to conspiracies, chevys, etc., per your post.
As I posted a little earlier, we both see a problem, I just don't see the current solutions offered by Kennedy (via Obama) as addressing the real issues or having a prayers chance of success. You are obviously more optimistic than I am.
Simply put, the U.S. goverment has proven it is incapable of developing and administering a national healthcare process (see Medicare for the example of failure).
The "shining examples" everyone always point to (ie Euro, Canada) really aren't shining at all, they are just "free" in that citizens pay taxes based on their theoretical ability to do so and use the services based on theoretical need (sound familiar? it should ----- it is right from the writings of Marx).
The greatest innovations, and applications of inovations, in the healthcare world occur here in the U.S {note I did not say, or mean, all, and that I included "application" as the absence of technolgy and schooling to result in applying the innovations to a mass audience makes them tragically less so).
Having said that, do we really know what the problem is? Has it been defined? I believe it has not.
Our politicians know there is a problem (or series of them) and their first and last response is a government program funded by taxpayers to create another voting class.
NOTHING that has been presented affects the overall cost of healthcare itself! The B.S. about saving on admin costs through computers is hogwash and has been debunked by, of all places, Oh Canada!
That leaves us with basically two remaining ways to affect overall cost:
1)Not allow or cover certain procedures, and
2)Just pass laws to tell providers of goods and services what they can charge.
I will note here that neither of these two sounds very American, or ethical, or within the overall intent of our constitution.
The first has a bias against the very sick (and, using data and stats, the very old), and we already have valid experience with the second, price controls, and their lack of effectiveness.
Then, of course, we need to ask the question "Is there really a problem of uninsured people?"
I would say that there is a problem here, but that we do not know the extent of the problem. We keep reading of a 45 million person problem so let's use that.
We know from publicly available data that over 10 million of them voluntarily choose to be uninsured even though they can afford it (ie make more than $75,000 a year). Fix that by making insurance coverage the law!
We know that approximatley 14 million uninsured currently qualify for governement-sponsored coverage but have failed to merely sign up for it (hey! How about a program to educate people that it is there? I also suspect making insurance the law would help here).
We know there are between 7 million and 10 million illegal immigrants in America that are uninsured.
We also know that approximatley 70% of the remaining uninsured are bouncing between jobs and are uninsured for an average of 4 months (COBRA, anyone?)
This means that the truly, institutionally uninsured sits at around 12 million people including illegal immigrants.
Now, this is a big number, but hardly a reason to create another monolithic gov program and taxing scheme which even the most optimistic will probably admit will be quickly screwed up and become yet another drag on both society and the economy.
I will close by addressing you comment of those who oppose the Kennedy/Obama plan are afraid of any change in the status quo --- speaking for myself, I must say "Oh contrar!"
The status quo is for politicians to solve our "problems" with solutions that do not apply to them AND which gain them a new voting class ---- the Kennedy-Obama program fits this to a "T".
I am strongly against this status quo and would like, for once, to see politicians really act non-partisan, define and solve a problem where the solution applies to them and all their union voting class, and let us all see it with pure transparency.
Transparency to me means no addendums, no last minute changes, no 1000 page bills, and NO ONE SIGNS IT UNTIL THEY SIGN A STATEMENT SAYING THEY READ IT!!!!
Simply put, not all change is good change, and any change needs to be thought through to address a well-defined problem and NOT to gain voters for the future.
Pax.
To Anonymous on July 18, 2009 2:03 PM
"The Bush administration and its supporters in Congress say Saddam has kept a stockpile of chemical and biological weapons in violation of U.N. resolutions and has continued efforts to develop nuclear weapons."
Ok. This is the same as my understanding.
Let me guess--are you focusing on the two words "HAS KEPT a stockpile of chemical and biological weapons"? Are you seriously trying to make a case that the #1 reason for invading Iraq in fact existed because a pile of EXPIRED chemical weapons, manufactured in the 1980s, were found? No biological weapons, no nukes, not even chemical weapons that could actually be used, just some old stuff piled in with some ammo? You actually believe THIS was worth thousands of our children's lives?
You can try to spin this anyway you want, but all it sounds like is Clinton's pathetic "it depends on what your definition of 'is' is." If you support this theory, then conversely, you would have to support the theory that the U.S. would have invaded Iraq even if they had known that pre-1991 degraded chemical weapons were the only weapons Saddam had, and only a fool would claim that.
The CIAs report is what history will judge by, and that report definitively states that the weapons found were NOT what the U.S. went to war for, and NO WMDs were found in Iraq. Like it or not, that's what stands.
What really makes me sad in these types of arguments is what is always overlooked by those claiming the Iraq invasion was indeed worth it--the sacrifice of so many young lives, U.S. and otherwise. Is their value so low that our government would have knowingly sent them into Iraq to die for so little if they had known that's all there was? Maybe you would, but I seriously doubt Congress would have, and I even think Bush himself would have had a hard time justifying it. And yet here you are, still trying to defend the action and rationalize a failure.
So what if there were up to 23 justifications listed for invading Iraq? The more icing the better! But the WMDs were the cake, the primary basis for the war, and it fell flat. That's what history will record.
Chris, what you heard was the same thing I heard and saw while walking my dog at Burning Tree and Royal St. George. That caravan was parents driving their pre-teen children to a swimming competition. The parents also wrote on their driveways I noted on West St. such things as "GO Cody" or "Swim Fast Colt". They wrote similar things on the windows of their mini vans and SUV's. You see, these are parents encouraging their children to be competitive and pervail against their swimming rivals. All of this is tradition in places like New Jersey, the capital for rude and ignorant jerks. They are teaching them to be as rude, incondsiderate and as obnoxious as they are. And F you they will shout back or flip you off if you complain to them or are bothered by them disturbing the peace at 0645hrs as they did in my neighorhood today and other days. All will acknowledge and respect their children. The beauty is they grow up to be the little obnoxious teenagers WV mom writes about who will steal from each other. Karma IS a bitch.
Yeah Glock, that's the area I'm talking about. I don't care if they write on their driveways but the honking is really obnoxious. Even the honking on the way back around noon was annoying. I thought there was a law against honking for no reason, but maybe not. Just because they are up at 6:30 doesn't mean the rest of us are. Some of us work second shift or want to sleep in on the weekends.
So I was driving with my husband & 3 little ones approaching the intersection of Washington & Ogden today. I was greeted with an onslaught of anti-abortion activists holding signs showing bloody remains of a local abortion, clearly distinguishable were arms, legs, head... I fully support both sides of the debate's right to voice their opinion. However when it infringes on the best interests of MY CHILDREN I feel I also have the right to say so.
I understand their goal is shock. Got it. But it's inappropriate to do that in an area which is readily visible to small children. I spoke to a gentlemen about how I thought it was inappropriate to show these photos & that my 3 year old was horrified by what she saw, particularly because we have a new baby. What was his response? "Go to hell, lady."
REALLY. You stand there holding this sign under the auspice that what it depicts is against God's will & at the mere mention of disapproval your first response is, "Go to hell??"
At least understand what it is you're fighting for, sir.
Hey let's be careful... I am not the one writing about obnoxious kids. That would be the Anonymous that I am corresponding with! She actually has been complaining about Naperville North and Central kids I believe. The area you are talking about would be Naperville North students, not WV.
I agree with both of you that the early morning, before the competition honking is stupid. The noon one, if the kids were successful and celebrating I can accept a little better. At ;least that should not be disturbing most people's sleep!
I'm probably going to post a new topic on the abortion protests later tonight.
By Former WV Mom on July 18, 2009 11:24 AM
This will be my final response to you.
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Your tone sounds a little angry.
We are having a good debate because we disagree with each other on many points and not because we agree. If we agreed there would be no need to debate.
I respect your feelings. I think the difference between you and me is I have ZERO TOLERANCE for certain things my kids want to engage in.
1. I have no tolerance for my kids smoking no matter how old they are. Smoking is stupid and I am not going to let them smoke under any circumstance no matter how informed a decision they made and how well thought out it was or how many hours they discussed it with me. If you call this extreme, be my guest.
2. I am not going to let my kids drink alcohol till they are 21. It is against the law and I have no tolerance in allowing them to break the law that is there to protect them.
3. I don't think you or your daughter are evil or bad people because you permitted her to get a tattoo on the bottom of her foot in an inconspicous place. That is your choice. You seem very emotional about a small tattoo on the foot of your daughter and even very defensive about it. This seems to be that if she chose to get a tattoo on her face even after giving it a lot of thought, you would put a stop to it and succeed. I suspect if you had to smack her a few times, you would smack her to avoid 53 stars on her face. If you are unwilling to smack her a few times, I suspect your husband or her sibliing would.
4. I created my kids with my genetic chromosomes. I think all my kids are beautiful creations. A lot of work was put into creating them and rasing them. I am not going to let them destroy what took 19 years and 9 months to build with a distasteful tattoo or any tattoo that they will most certainly regret later in their lives and most probably blame me for, for not having been stricter.
5. My kids have known from DAY ONE, if they get a tattoo, they are out of my house and they will never receieve a penny from me for anything including college or car expenses. While I never said this to them, I suspect they know I will even disinherit them, too. So there are lines in the sand that they will not dare cross. Thankfully!
6. I don't think a book can teach you how to raise a kid. If that was the case, we would all read this book and have perfect kids. It ain't so easy Former WV Mom. You seem to have been blessed with 2 special kids that came out of a mold instead of a womb. Most of us have been blessed with works of art that we have to develop over 25 years.
7. My Dad, like Michael Jackson's Dad used the belt on me to raise me when necessary. I hated him at the time but I love him now for keeping me straight. He saw me looking at a cigarette once at age 8 and forced me to smoke it. I coughed and choked like hell and never smoked a cigarette again in my life. I am grateful for that. I bet every smoker who is trying to quit wishes they had a strict Dad like mine. I bet every Stage 4 lung cancer patient dying in a hospital from cigs wishes their Dad took out the belt when they caught them with that first cigarette.
8. The only reason I don't use the belt here in Naperville against my daughter and her boyfriend is that it is illegal and I am a law abiding citizen. I read about how the former Fire Chief of Naperville punched his kid in the chest and was charged by the Naperville Police. And shortly thereafter he was forced to resign or teminated even though his performance was superb. If he can't get away with it, then I know I can't. I am not willing to go to jail for my daughter or her boyfriend so I have to use everything legally in my power to my advantage.
9. Her boyfrend challenged me to hit him no less than a dozen times. Even though I am twice his size and three times his strength, I controlled myself. I knew what he was up to as he successfully got his Dad to hit him twice. His Dad was arrested, jailed and charged with a felony or felonies.
10. I have tried talking to my daughter in many of the ways YOU describe. It did not work. She claims she can not help she "loves" him. But she has not seen him for 3 weeks and hopefully after Mytle Beach it will be 5 weeks and MOTHER TIME will have destroyed this unhealthy relationship.
I have a lot of respect for you, Former WV Mom. I do not consider myelf to be an extremist. I am just trying to raise my kids properly. I don't want them to join the millions in U.S. Jails. These kids start as disobedient and than disobebience becomes something much worse. Your kids apparently don't need as much "tough love" as other kids. What you fail to realize is not all kids are born the same with the same genes and same mentality.
If anyone is EXTREME, I believe you are as you believe there is a secret formula that works for all kids equally. Your hidden message is "you simply don't know how to raise your kids but I know how to raise mine."
I am simply dealing with rebellion which is common amongst teenagers. I expected rebellion but I did not think it would be this ferocious. I still have 2 other kids in the pipeline that did not make the teenage years yet. They are currently angels. Will they remain angels? I am hoping but I doubt it.
At some point peer pressure becomes greater than parental pressure and this is what seems to lead to rebellion. It is not easy to go through this rebellious process. One has already graduated from it and one could not ask for a better kid. One is in midst of it and one could not ask for a worse child. The verdict is out on the last 2 as they approach those rebellious years influenced by massive peer pressure.
Anyway, I don't understand why I angered you telling my story. You did not anger me telling me your story. I enjoyed hearing it. When I talking about all those in my opinion "dumb" people putting tattoos on their breasts, face, shoulders and arms of X's, I was not talking about your daughter or you. So I don't know why you took it personal.
If your letter will be your last letter that is fine. All debates do end at some point and need to end. There should no hostilitly at the end of a debate. One should feel enlightened and richer. I feel enlightened and richer thanks to you.
If you don't feel the same, all I can say is I am very sorry.
Ahaha Chris. You're going to need one of these for the abortion thread:
http://www.dawginc.com/industrial-safety-products/fire-flame-retardant-suit.php
Don't say I didn't warn you!
What the, I would suggest you either find a non-inflammatory way to say it or you just drop the line of discussion if you feel like you're beating your head against a wall.
Keyboard Rambo, I definitely understand I'll be asking for trouble with an abortion thread, but it is a worthy discussion topic when they bring something like this protest to Naperville.
Again... blowing things way out of proportion. I was not in the slightest bit angry when I posted, just felt I had said everything I needed to say and was tired of having to correct your misassumptions. But you obviously are angry. My kids don't drink (even the 21 year old still doesn't), don't smoke, have never gotten a ticket, never been arrested, because they have been educated to make the right choices and they are making their choices. Choices are not forced upon them through threats. They feel you should not do things that are illegal. The 21 year old has decided to continue as a non drinking person because what he has seen at college is utter stupidity when people there drink. And both of them are disgusted by the mere smell of smoke. Again, they have not been threatened into any decisions. They have been educated to make the right decisions. I have kids who happen to be educated enough that they have proven themselves immune to peer pressure.
In my family, no one has ever been hit or spanked as a punishment, although you insinuate that through this statement "I suspect if you had to smack her a few times, you would smack her to avoid 53 stars on her face. If you are unwilling to smack her a few times, I suspect your husband or her sibling would." Which is the only reason I am responding now. So yes, I am angry now. Because your comments are inflammatory, uncalled for, and just plain nasty.
I do believe in your last post you just may have proven why your kids have chosen to get in power struggles and rebel with you. You want control. The problem is you won't always have it. And can't always have it.
My guess others on this blog at this point also get it.
Hello Naperville!!! We lived in naperville for 12 years, then relocated to the west coast. We relocated just as all the controversy on the new HS in district 204 was starting up. We loved Naperville and I'm curious has the new HS opened and is everyone happy again???
By Former WV Mom on July 18, 2009 7:00 PM
So yes, I am angry now. Because your comments are inflammatory, uncalled for, and just plain nasty.
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I think if all esle fails and your kid at age 15 wants to get 53 tattoo stars on their face, they deserve a smacking. I think you are angry because you think I am talking about you and your kids. I am not talking about them. I am being general.
Some girl in London who was 15 actually went to a tattoo parlor and got 53 tattoo stars on the left side of her face. She was on all the news stations. If my daughter had an appointment to get 53 stars at a tattoo parlor I would smack her and even visit the tattoo parlor and threaten them with a lawsuit if they dared put 53 tattoos on my daughters face.
While you think I am odd, I bet you 99% of the families in this town would not let their kids get 53 tattoos on their left faces no matter how much they thought about it or how much they consulted with them.
I think you are a bit odd letting your kids have the freedom to make decisions at such a young age. It is good to trust kids at a young age but you can not give them unlimited trust. Kids do stupid things. They get DUI's and get into car accidents. They forget to put their seat belts on. They forget to lock the house when they leave sometimes. They are not born mature and need to time to mature and learn.
I think you need to be in the face of your kids until they get it together. Again, I am not talking about your kids who came out of a perfect mold instead of a natural womb. Like I said you are a very lucky lady to have such good kids with such great judgement. I believe your family is the exception while mine is more the norm.
I have spanked my kids when they were under 12 and not respecting their time-outs. I have no regrets about spanking them. If I did not they would be much worse today.
Am I controlling. Yes, I am but only till they prove they can handle the real world and make good decisions. My oldest is on her own, does not live at home, and I don't control her life while she goes through graduate school even though I am mostly her only means of support. I don't want to control anyone. I simply want them to grow up responsible and make it to 25. I do not want to bury my kids. I want them to bury me. No parent should ever have to bury their child.
I am not blowing anything out of proportion. I am saying things as they are in my family. My generalizations are about people in general and not you even though I am kind of writing to you. This is a public forum so I assume others are reading our exchange and at some point may have some input one way or another that could be beneficial to you or me or both of us.
I have said you are a nice lady. I have said I trust everything you are saying. I thanked you for your advice. And all you have to say is my comments are "just plain nasty." Do you actually read what I write before you respond, Former WV Mom?
My last comment of my previous post was, "If you don't feel the same, all I can say is I am very sorry."
I have been very courteous to you. I have been very polite to you. It is all in black and white. And you have the audacity to say I am "just plain nasty." Why? Because I don't believe any child should have the right to get 53 star tattoos on the left side of her face.
It sounds to me you can easily get upset at anyone who disagrees with you. If you don't like debating with those who disagree with you, this may not be the best forum in the world for you. Maybe you need to try a new forum where everyone agrees with everyone else. I bet you would love that kind of forum and you would be happy instead of angry.
The insinuation that anyone in my house would hit another person is what I found offensive and nasty. It was what you said not you personally.
We have rules in our home. Our kids understand them. They are the rules that make our family function well. They are not arbitrary. There are reasons behind them that are thought out and understood. As our kids have gotten older, they have proven their good decision making. We taught them how to make good decisions. And if they made a bad one, they knew that they would have to solve the issues that would arise from them. I did not solve my kids problems for them, although I would get them thinking about them. My kids have proven time and time again that they can make good decisions. When they've made a bad one (which is never over the big things) they have suffered the consequences and been able to find their way out and solve the issue. Every bit of freedom or element of control over themselves that they have been given, has been freedom and control they have earned.
Did I ever say that anything goes in our home? No. I stated in the very beginning that we had rules and our kids followed them. Had my daughter wanted a huge tattoo that would have impacted her life in a negative way, we would have said no. And the thing is, because we would have given her the chance to at least state her case, discussed every aspect of the decision, she would have been satisfied. (But the thing is, she never would have wanted that. We knew that about her. Which is why this was an area where we could allow her to make a decision.) My kids have not rebelled in the big huge ways because they are not fighting for control. There have always been areas where they had control, and as they got older and proved that they could make the right decisions, they were given more aspects of control. They have no need to rebel because they feel they have a say in things.
Any parenting expert will tell you that a huge reason behind rebellion is that parents have tried to control their kids' entire lives and not allowed their kids to learn to make decisions. The kids who go to college and go wild there tend to often be the ones who were not allowed any chance to make their own decisions earlier. The kids who succumb to peer pressure have not been given the tools to stand up to it. We gave our kids the tools and the information so that they could do that. Kids want an element of control, and can earn it. If they feel they are listened to, valued, and yes have some control within guidelines that have been established, the chance of rebellion is far reduced. Getting in their face is going to push them to rebel in some way. Maybe not in the precise way that you are getting in their face about, but they'll find a way.
One example of allowing a little control and freedom to make decisions: Our kids no longer have a curfew since they are in college. They let us know where they are going, what they are doing, who they are with, and the time they will be home. They set the time based on the activity. They are never late. And often are home earlier than they stated. They do understand that if they are late, I will worry, and they don't want me to worry. They also know there will be a consequence for making me worry. But because they are setting that time, why would they ever be late? It was their decision. (By the way, the only time they choose a time after midnight is if they go to the midnight release of a new movie.)
I do not ever feel it is right to hit a kid. Ever. Do I believe kids need discipline, rules and guidelines? Yes. But if the rules are clear, valid, and understood, not arbitrary, and the consequences are clear, suitable for the infraction, and discussed, an they feel informed and involved in some of that, they tend to be more likely to follow them. (Kicking someone out of the home for any of the things mentioned is not a suitable or reasonable punishment.)
My kids have two entirely different personalities, yet they are both mature, and make good decisions. What we have done has worked for them, for two different people. We do not discipline with threats or physical force. There is no struggle for power in this house. They do know who is in charge, my husband and I, and also know that they are allowed to make certain decisions. It was a lot of work when they were younger, but that work was far worth it in the end.
At this point, what you have done has not seemed to work. You have had two go through rebellions that have made elements of your home life tough to deal with. While I will agree that often kids eventually come out of it and end up ok in the long run, I would hope at this point you might try something different with the younger kids so that you don't have to go through it again.
http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/napervillesun/news/blogentries/index.html?bbPostId=CzDHx1bFMDGuxCzCaq095BI1w0Cz1CSWhdxEiSqB7jZKJQjdHFI&bbParentWidgetId=B7guBjEv6aEZDmpkQGD19Ut
What did this person have for an English? And certainly were are the proof readers for this piece before it goes public?
"one the one hand there seem to be obvious advantages to being taught be experienced,"
Should be "on the one hand" and "by experienced" !!!!!
To: By what the? on July 18, 2009 3:25 PM
I take back the "my bad" --- you are tedious.
Judging by the tone of your respone you either cannot read or you enjoy distorting the views of others.
Your anger is palpable, it belies your attempts at anything even approaching a fair and open-minded debate, and your intolerant mind is not only incapable of accepting that others have views but it results in your inabilty to accomplish even the most remote analysis of the views of others, thus leaving you uninformed.
Your attempts to put words to my "pen" are pathetic. My post was not an attempt to parse the meaning of words, but to point out that the issue was not exclusively one of nukes, The expiration, or "had been", nature was clearly not the point.
Let me be clear: In 2002,the U.S. governement, along with every single other first world governement in the world, believed that Saddam had WMDs. At that time the official U.S. government position was one of regime change in Iraq that was officially established in 1998, I believe, by by Presient Bill Clinton.
[Note here that YOU attempted to redefine WMDs as ONLY applying to nukes, which is a factually inferior stance.]
Also note that the official articles of war, if you were, included what I believe were 23 issues of cause (the main one being the 12 year failure by Iraq to comply with U.N. resolutions, the most important of which referred to the development and maintenance (two freakingly key words) of WMDs.
History is clear: by the time we invaded, there were no nukes. There is no argument on that. However, this does not diminish the worldwide belief, and Saddam's consistent and constant statements, that he did in fact have them.
To summarize:
> the U.S. had an existing policy of regime change in Iraq,
> the entire world believed Iraq had WMDs (which he did since he used them!),
> the entire world believed he either had, or was diligently working on, nukes as part of his WMD arsenal,
> Saddam regularly warned the world of his growing power and willingness to use WMDs
> Iraq was in gross violation of several U.N. resolutions (a 12 year gap)
> Iraq was still attacking other countries, specifically the U.S., whenever a plane or chopper was evident in what he believed was his airspace (despite the U.N. resolutions he had agreed to)
> Bush described Iraq as a "gathering threat" to the U.S. and other free countries
> The U.S. finally invaded Iraq with the full non-partisan aproval of the Congress, had a magnificent 3 weeks, then proceeded to screw everything up for the next 4.5 years.
To your final point:
I fully believe that Bush would NOT have invaded (in that manner, anyway, meaning without a full U.N. commitment), if the world knew then what they know now --- nukes were most likely a sham by Saddam.
Anyone who knows of his leadership in Texas and his campaign goals, nation-building was definitely not in his wheelhouse. I would submit that the attacks on 9-11 quickly changed his wheelhouse.
I would add here that you undermine the efforts of our military by describing it as a failure ---- that description was re-written with the surge and we now have a fragile, yet free, Iraq.
As for me, Yes, I believe that given what was allegedly known at the time, the invasion was merited and should have been done 6 months earlier.
I believe we screwed up almost everything after the initial 3 weeks.
I believe that the entire Iraq war was turned into a partisan tug-of-war by our politicians who showed they had little regard for the world, our country, or our soldiers (at times).
I saw no "lies" then or now in after-thought. I did see mistakes by the world's intelligence agencies, ours included.
I believe this because a nation should only undertake war, and risk the lives of not only our youths but our entire military and support regardless of age, when it is within national policy and is understood as a threat either directly or indirectly to our sovereignity [i.e. either a gathering or imminent threat]. I do not need the rest of the world to agree.
The tragedy of those who argue that war is never the answer (sometimes with the exception of only when we we are invaded) is that once invaded, it is too late to keep overall casualties down. Also, those who argue this view tend to ignore the meaning of invasion. Heck, our current administration refuses to call terrorists "terrorists"!
Former WV Mom,
I guess what you are saying is that if your daughter wanted to go to the tattoo parlor to get 53 stars inked into her left cheek, you will say NO, and she knows NO means NO.
I think we need to try to get you to stop talking about your kids because by now we all understand your kids came out of a well designed disciplined mold and not a womb.
Please try to answer some questions regarding normal kids who may not listen so easily.
1. What do you do when a kid insists on going to the tattoo parlor to get an ugly tatto on his neck or her breast if talking is not working?
2. How do you stop him and/or her from going to the tattoo parlor?
3. Peer pressure causes kids to rebel against their parents and want to be cool like everyone else. Being cool these days means tattooing your body and piercing your tongue, lips, and eyebrows. How do you convince kids(not your kids who are near perfect and listen) to cease and desist from their irrational behavior? Please advise.
4. I think rebellion is part of the maturing process. I think kids need to do stupid things and learn from their mistakes. But without controls they will do stupider things and hurt or kill themselves. They will do irreversible things. How can you prevent kids from doing stupid and irreversible things and yet have them blossom into mature young adults one day?
5. Not all kids are ready to leave home and go away to college. All think they are. We let the mature one go but held back the immature one and sent her to DuPage where we could monitor her more easily until she showed some more maturity. You seem to think that there is a cookie cutter that works for all kids equally. Can you explain this cookie cutter to us? Do you really think all kids think alike and one formula works for all? I wish it was so easy, former WV Mom.
I am glad you are no longer angry and understand a debate is meant for enlightenment and not anger.
I know you don't believe in spanking or belting. Michael Jackson does not either. Without his belting, I doubt he would have been the greatest entertainer of all times. Ironically, his brothers and cousins have admitted they were belted too, by Father and Uncle Joe, but they feel they are better people due to the belting. I was belted myself and feel I am a better person for the beltings....yes, more than once. I have heard reports that Tiger Woods was also belted and spanked when he had temper tantrums and refused to practice golf at age 4 and 5 as his Dad demanded. I bet he dose not hate his Dad. He is worth hundreds of millions because his Dad pushed him a little harder than other Dads pushed their kids. When his Dad died, he had nothing but nice things to say about him. The only person who has never gotten over his belting is Michael Jackon. I am sure we can all agree that even though he was a great entertainer, he was a bit unusual. His siblings that were all belted seem to be doing just fine. Janet and Jermaine Jackson have become quite impressive adults and show so much maturity and wisdom despite the belt beatings of 50 years ago.
Maybe if kids could be belted at a young age, they would behave themselves when they get older. Maybe, if they were belted our police department would not have to be put through hell of raising our kids since we are not allowed to raise them the way our parents raised us.
I would like to see the City Council pass a resolution apologizing to the Fire Chief for charging him due to punching his 18 year old son in the chest for being disobedient followed by another resolution that would make spanking and belting legal in the City of Naperville.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
PS. Please understand I am not saying your kids need to be belted. I am not saying all kids need to be belted. I am saying some kids need a good belting. So don't take this personal or an attack on your family. If you do want to respond, it would be great if you could try to leave your family out of it.....just for ONCE. You kids are great kids and there is nothing more we need to learn about them.
Anonymous on July 19, 2009 4:37 PM
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Gee Anonymous, it seems that if you could get those 5 questions answered, you yourself (and apparently your own kids) would have a much better home life?
What ever credibility the Sybil blogger might have had with anyone must surely be gone now - as publicly stating that the believe in child abuse. "I am saying some kids need a good belting."
Fed up,
I'd agree with you if the idea of credibility even entered into the discussion. The problem with that is that we know that the Sybil blogger will say almost anything, particularly if it gets a rise out of someone, as it has in this case.
Think of it this way, as I have been doing - for someone who is utterly terrified of anyone figuring out his/her/their actually identities... he's now given us enough information to actually do so, if anyone had the energy or desire to try. That leas me to the idea that it is utterly made up - no dance team or anything like that in sybil's family, just made up. Again. To try and create controversy, and to somehow make blog posts more... what? Interesting? Controversial?
Anonymous on July 19, 2009 1:43 PM
http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/napervillesun/news/blogentries/index.html?bbPostId=CzDHx1bFMDGuxCzCaq095BI1w0Cz1CSWhdxEiSqB7jZKJQjdHFI&bbParentWidgetId=B7guBjEv6aEZDmpkQGD19Ut
What did this person have for an English? And certainly were are the proof readers for this piece before it goes public?
"one the one hand there seem to be obvious advantages to being taught be experienced,"
Should be "on the one hand" and "by experienced" !!!!!
________________________________________
Anon, you are seriously taking issue with this article? Your grammer criticism begins with the following two statements. "What did this person have for an English? (sic), then your next sentence says, "And certainly were (sic)are the proofreaders?
So in your criticism of the Sun's grammer you make two errors yourself. If you actually read the link you supply it clearly says the following disclaimer before and after the article: "The views expressed in these blog posts are those of the author and not of the Sun-Times News Group." The Sun was simply printing another persons view, not their own. jeesh! The link you provided was a BLOG post, NOT an article written by the Sun!
To Anonymous on July 19, 2009 2:20 PM:
Wow, rude AND inflammatory!
Now whose anger is palpable? It's about time you got riled up about this. It's pissed me off for years.
What you call "an intolerant mind incapable of accepting that others have views" is actually just an opinion different from yours that is not easily manipulated. And when it comes to this subject, I've seen a lot of manipulation and reinterpretations of past events in what seems an attempt to rewrite the travesty of the Iraq war into something more palatable.
I first have to give you credit for some comments I rarely see from anyone defending the war:
"The U.S. finally invaded Iraq with the full non-partisan approval of the Congress, had a magnificent 3 weeks, THEN PROCEEDED TO SCREW EVERYTHING UP FOR THE NEXT 4.5 YEARS" (It was no doubt unintentional, but this cracked me up), and
"I believe we screwed up almost everything after the initial 3 weeks" and
"I believe that the entire Iraq war was turned into a partisan tug-of-war by our politicians who showed they had little regard for the world, our country, or our soldiers (at times).
I completely agree, but I rarely get these admissions from anyone defending the action in Iraq. Most refuse to acknowledge any errors in judgment, as if doing so were disloyal.
To your next comment, "The expiration, or "had been", nature was clearly not the point." Well, thank God for that! Since I was having this exact discussion with an Anon at the time, I assumed this was more of the same. This was the other Anons position--doesn't matter if the WMDs found were only chemical weapons 13+ years old and useless! Heck, WMDs are WMDs, that's good enough for me. Mission accomplished! Talk about a mind-numbing inferior stance.
And actually, you are incorrect, I did not attempt to redefine WMDs as ONLY applying to nukes. Check it out. The definition I posted came directly from a written source and stated that during the Cold War, WMDs referred only to nukes but since the Gulf War the definition had been expanded to include chemical and biological weapons. The point is all three types of weapons are now lumped together under the WMD label, but they are not created equal. The belief that Saddam had or was developing nuclear weapons was presented as the biggest threat of the three. I remember Bush saying so. You should too.
I also notice incongruent remarks. At one point, you wrote:
"by the time we invaded, there were no nukes."
To me this implies THERE WERE NUKES BEFORE WE INVADED, but by the time we got there they were gone. To say "by the time we invaded" makes it sound like you're hedging on this. That's different from saying there were no nukes, period.
And another, "I fully believe that Bush would NOT have invaded if the world knew then what they know now --- nukes were most likely a sham by Saddam." Precisely! So the nukes were the sine qua non for going into Iraq, not the chemical WMDs which everyone saw him use in the '80s, not the biological WMDs which everyone thought he was developing, not freeing the Iraqis, not even because Saddam was violating all the 1991 agreements. He had been doing all these things for almost two decades prior to the invasion. It was the possibility of nukes that was the final straw. This has been my assertion all along.
In the interest of time I'm not going through every comment point by point. Suffice it to say some of the other 23 were compelling, some were clearly just opinion, and some sound blown out of proportion in order to make a stronger case. But I still consider them icing because a war would not have been started on any of these points alone or even together. The cake was always the WMDs, most importantly, the nukes. And judging by this, it was a failure.
I also take exception to your comment that the description of Iraq as a failure was re-written with the surge. I don't accept that as readily as you. It shrugs off the 4 years of chaos that preceded it. This is not an insult to our military; they were only doing as instructed. But we get lucky with a Hail Mary pass at the end so now we're winners? It works that way in football, not a war with no clear ending. And we have a free Iraq--today. It's too early to say if any of it will stick, much less grow, once we leave. It's much too soon to claim victory.
The rest I think we pretty much agree on.
My kids came from a womb, but I guess when it comes down to it there was a heck of a lot of "molding" being done as they grew up. You seem to want to believe that there was no work put into this, it's just how they are. That's not the case. We put a lot of hard work into raising our kids. We didn't yell at them and react emotionally to misbehavior. We were more strict if the infraction or behavior impacted someone other than just themselves. Punishments were of the appropriate severity for the level of behavior, were ones that they would actually learn from, some involved the natural consequences of the behavior, others were created in a way to teach them a lesson. They were not the same for each kid (that would have been easier) because each kid was so different and learned differently. They knew what they did wrong, why it was wrong, what happens as a result of the choice they made, and how to make a better choice the next time. They made better choices afterwards (and yes sometimes it might take a few tries to learn, but they did learn) and they made those better choices because it was the right thing to do, not because they were afraid of their parents or of getting hit. Clear understood rational rules, clear consequences, and consistency will help kids to learn to make better decisions. As they get older it will become more instinctual. Maybe my training as a teacher influenced this. How my husband and I were raised definitely does.
Yelling at a child is an emotional reaction, not a logical one. While it might be easier for a parent to just yell, it's better not to. When kids are yelled at, they don't really hear what you are saying, all they hear is noise. And they will say whatever it is they need to say to get it to stop.
Hitting a child is an emotional reaction too, not a logical one. A child again will shut down, and again just say whatever it is they need to say to make it stop. Hitting is not control, it is a loss of control. It may work in the immediate, but it does not work in the long term.
It is harder to react logically than it is to react emotionally.
I think you would be amazed to find that many teens who are in trouble (most likely most) were spanked as they were growing up. The other extreme is that they were too coddled and not held accountable for their actions. There is a middle ground where kids can be held accountable for their behavior without being hit. And yes there will always be anomalies who seem to come from perfect families yet also get in major trouble. Often it is discovered later that the family wasn't as perfect as it appeared. Other times it is discovered that there may be a mental health issue. And occasionally it's just an anomaly.
While I strongly believe that you should "spare the rod" I also strongly believe that you should never "spoil the child." Kids need to be provided the things they need, maybe a few of their wants, but also need to work for most of those wants. The kids in this area especially need to grow up realizing that they are pretty lucky to live where they live and that there are others out there who don't have the advantages that they have. They need to learn to be thankful for what they have, not just expect things to be given to them or done for them.
By the time a child is 18, there is not much you can do if they make a bad decision. They are considered adults. And unless you spend every waking moment with them and hover over them, you cannot control every decision they make. That's why it is so important to discipline them in a way that helps them learn to make better decisions in the future. Again, it takes a lot of hard work, a lot of thought, and yes a lot of restraint to override the emotional response and respond in ways that they will learn from. The girl with the stars did not talk to her parents before she made that decision, and has since come out and admitted she left the tattoo parlor very happy with her tattoos. The crime in this is that her parents, instead of making her take responsibility at first, wanted to blame the whole thing on the tattoo artist. But I would ask, why did she not feel she could talk to her parents ahead of time?
If you think back to when you were belted, how did you feel about it at the time? How did you feel about your father? Were you such a bad kid that you could not have learned from another form of discipline? My guess is that you could have learned another way. I would guess also that when it comes down to it, you would rather have not been belted.
Michael Jackson and his family are in no way a testament to the positive impact of belting. They are all pretty messed up, even Janet and Jermaine. They have all had some pretty dark periods of their lives. And all of them seem to feel that they are ugly and have overdone the plastic surgery in an effort to become better looking. But the truth is that they were quite good looking before any of the surgery, much better looking than they are now. What is it that makes them feel that they need such extensive work? A feeling that seems to be consistent across the entire family? Why is it that so many of them have loosened or completely cut their ties with their father?
I never claimed to have all of the answers or have the only right one (those were assumptions you made), merely presented things that worked here in the best way that I could. When it comes down to it, they are all things that are worth a try. And until someone tries them they won't know if they work. And it may work for some and some may need to find something else. But they should never give up.
I used my kids as examples because that is my experience and I do not feel it is right for me to be talking about other kids, although their friends are all making good choices too. At least if my kids read these posts, they would not be at all embarrassed or appalled at anything I said about them. Sure they've made mistakes, and they have learned from them, although none of them have been anything big, I sure as heck would not air them out on a public forum.
You said above
"I still have 2 other kids in the pipeline that did not make the teenage years yet. They are currently angels. Will they remain angels? I am hoping but I doubt it."
You seem to have already given up on them. I am saying try something different than what you have always done. Not necessarily what worked for my family, but something different.
When it comes down to it, I originally posted to respond to the insinuation that people should not allow teens to hang out at their homes because bad things will happen. I am sorry if that has been your experience. But I think as these posts have gone on, it has been pretty clear that your kids have made some choices along the way that have led to some of these issues in your home. While you have not come out admitted it literally, it's inherent in your posts.
Since this is "Open Topic" I saw the story below linked from the online Naperville Sun
The teenage gunman who admitted gunning down Julian High School honors student Blair Holt on a packed CTA bus was sentenced this afternoon to 100 years in prison.
Michael “Mario” Pace, 18, could have served life in prison for his role in the May 10, 2007, killing.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/24-7/1675161,gunman-blair-holt-100-years-prison-072009.article
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So maybe it's just me, but this thug gets sentenced to 100 years in prison and the article says that he "could have received life". I'm gonna take a leap here and say that unless this kid lives to be 118 he in fact received a life sentence (deservedly so). Maybe this has something to do with parole eligibility etc. but the article doesn't say.
To: By what the? on July 20, 2009 10:13 AM
Like I think I posted much earlier, we are much closer to agreement than we think!
I do believe that if we knew there were no nukes, we would not have pushed for invasion at that point (probably would have moved into a severe squeeze on Iraq economic). But, hindsight is 20/20! The entire first world thought he had them,so.......
My comment on failure or not was only related to the acts of war, not os policy or world relations (clearly the world has/had issues with our invasion). Just as clearly, though absolutely no one ever thought the Iraqis would have even a chance at a democracy (and I think our definition of democracy does not apply to the ME at this time).
You know, all of the people I talk & debate with believe like I do that the middle 4.5 years of the Iraq war was completely bungled by the U.S.
Many, if not all, think the bungling was based in the changing of the ROE to treat the war as a police action(something conservatives accused, rightly so, the Dems of doing, yet they did it themselves!). My immediate family has several (teens) of deployments to Iraq and Afgan, as warriors and support (corp of eng) and consultants, and they have all agreed that the SOE until Petreaus got his way was dangerous to our troops and counter-productive. I mean, really ----why is it our feckless politicians think war can be humane? If you don't think it is humane, you might think it through a little more clearly, no?
Pax.
For all the people posting about teens gathering .....
Let's not pretend that today's teens are really any different than past generations.
You hit 17,you believe you are immortal and your parents are idiots. You think you are the first generation to discover alcohol/sex/drugs, and you are generally a little bit of a prick. You rebel and push the envelope, period.
Anyone who really think our little Naperbrats are any different are engaging in fantasy. This is how they will learn ----- by experimenting and testing the boundaries. Without such testing they will move forward into a world where they are unarmed with the knowledge and experience that others have.
So let's quit pretending our little teens don't engage in the very same aberrant behavior we did!
When it comes down to it, I originally posted to respond to the insinuation that people should not allow teens to hang out at their homes because bad things will happen. I am sorry if that has been your experience. But I think as these posts have gone on, it has been pretty clear that your kids have made some choices along the way that have led to some of these issues in your home. While you have not come out admitted it literally, it's inherent in your posts.
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Former WV Mom,
I did admit that my daughter made a bad choice in her boyfriend and I have taken extreme measures to dispose of him once and for all. I am currently having some success. Maybe you are not reading what I write.
Contrary to what you say, I would advise parents not to allow their kids to make THEIR basement, a teenage hang-out unless your kids come out of a perfect mold instead of a womb. Mine and most kids in Naperville appeared to have come out of wombs.
No matter what most parents do and how well they raise their kids, in my opinion they experience REBELLION. It is a normal part of life. It is how kids eventually earn their freedom into adulthood. It is a ritual all teenagers and parents have to go through. We just have to keep tabs on this ritual so it does not have to get out of control as apparently occured with one of my children.
All I can say to you Former WV Mom, is your family is not typical and you are not equipped to advise familes with rebellious teenagers.
I have not given up on my young innocent angels who have not hit the teens. But I know from experience what to expect. I am not naive. I also know no matter what I will do, they will be rebelling to see how far they can push me. What kid wants to come home at 10pm or even midnight when his friends can stay out later?
As I said you have been lucky letting in 60 cross country kids in your home and not having a single thing stolen. In my opinion and experiences if you let that many teenagers in your home whether you know them well, slightly or not at all, you are asking for trouble. And I will bet you that at least one of them will take something from your home on the way out.
Try leaving a 20 dollar bill on the carpet in your basement in an inconspicuous place. I guarantee you one of the 60 kids will be tempted to pocket it and will separate you from it.
While you are a very nice and innocent lady, I really believe you either have been extremely lucky in life or have been naive to what occurs under you nose.
To Anonymous in the NNHS and NCHS area, and Former WV Mom:
I have two kids in the NVHS attendance area, so I'm situated between you two boundary-wise. I saw the article in tonight's Sun about the vandalism at NNHS, where obscenities were sprayed painted onto the newly installed artificial turf on the football field. So I thought I would add my experiences to the mix.
What I've experienced in this part of Naperville is pretty much the same as WV Mom. I have never had any problems with any of my children's friends. The worst that has happened is they will get too lively and something may get damaged or scratched, but no deliberate vandalism ever in our home, and definitely no theft. My kids will have several friends over at a time, often they will watch movies till late at night in the basement and we'll go to bed. We allow our older child to have groups of friends over and don't need to hover or watch them, and will leave them in the house alone for periods of time if we have other things to do. Stuff has always been left out when these kids are around--jewelry, iPods, cell phones, even cash. I've never given it a second thought, and neither have my kids.
When my girls were young and first started to have friends over, I would tell them that they were responsible for what their friends did in our home. So if someone got into something they shouldn't, or started making a mess or being destructive, it was my child's responsibility to step in first and enforce our house rules. If the behavior continued, then I would be summoned. If it still continued, the friend would be sent home. Over the years they got better at picking friends who weren't trouble-makers. Once in a while a bad apple would show up at a party or sleep over, but I can't think of a single time when they were invited back. This is all I have ever had to do. All the kids we know are great, and they all know they're welcome at our home anytime.
Here is a story that will probably blow Anon away. My oldest has her own car, nothing fancy, it's old but reliable. At one point she was using one of those combination wallet/key chain things which kept her ID, money and keys all together in one unit. One night she went out to dinner with friends. She didn't drive, so she put her wallet/key unit in her coat pocket. When she got home, it was gone. She figured it may have fallen out in the restaurant or when she was running across the parking lot in the rain. She went back to the restaurant and searched the parking lot; no luck. That's when we realized whoever found her wallet knew what she looked like, where she lived and went to school, and had the keys to both her car and our home. Yikes!! We knew the first thing we needed to do was have our house locks changed immediately.
But get this--the next day, a fellow NVHS student handed my daughter her wallet. Apparently, a family had found the wallet in the parking lot of the restaurant. They saw the student ID and took the wallet to their next door neighbor who had a daughter who attended Neuqua. She recognized my daughter and offered to return it to her the next day at school, which she did. Everything was there, cash and all. Can you imagine?
While remarkable, this is consistent with how the people are in this area, and I thought that included the 203 area of Naperville as well. I am really surprised to hear Anon is having such different experiences.
Pax:
Seriously, the people I know who defend the war will not admit any fallacies in it's planning, purpose or implementation. They're very defensive about this. It was all good, or at least well-intentioned, which counts just as much. And they use the fact that the "surge worked" as justification for everything that preceded it. The surge worked, so it was all worth it, that's all that matters. I get the impression that even if the surge hadn't worked, it wouldn't have changed their outlook much.
But perhaps this can explain it--all these people are friends and family members who live in Texas. Folks here complain about the slobbering love affair some have for Obama. In Texas, the Bush family walks on water, probably always will.
I do forget this a lot, as we haven't lived there for quite some time. I even forget this when we visit. Last year, my family got together for dinner with a family we've known for over 15 years. They suggested a popular Texas steakhouse. My friend's wife had instructed him, "No talking politics", but he couldn't help himself. As soon as we were seated, he called me Obama girl, and we were off. Even our waitress was chiming in. After a while, tho, my husband nudged my arm. I looked around the room and noticed there were a lot of people staring at me. They did not look happy. And they were all clutching steak knives. I decided it was time to shut up.
The next time we get together, I'm insisting on sushi. The Japanese don't believe in having knives at the table.
By what the? on July 21, 2009 12:42 AM
To Anonymous in the NNHS and NCHS area, and Former WV Mom:
While remarkable, this is consistent with how the people are in this area, and I thought that included the 203 area of Naperville as well. I am really surprised to hear Anon is having such different experiences.
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By Anonymous on July 13, 2009 6:42 PM
Former WV Mom,
Just a few days ago my daughter invited a girl from Extreme Dance to our home that she trusted. This is a group that won 2 national championships in the last 2 years in Ocean Beach, MD and Las Vegas and are seeking a third consecutive championship next month in Myrtle Beach, S.C. Girls that practice their dance routines 12 hours some days to be the best they can be.
This girl she invited from the Dance Studio asked if she could have 3 male friends over that she was sure were 99.99% honest. One of the male friends from Aurora stole my daughters cell phone and the key to the house on the way out.
The girl's family has been awesome. They raided his car and retrieved the cell phone minus the sym card. They are pressuring his parents to force him to cough up the key to the house he stole from the door. It turns out the kid who goes to Waubonsie already has a break and entering conviction unbeknownest to anyone until we googled him.
As I said in my earlier post this was not the 1st time her cell phone was stolen. The other 3 times it was by Naperville Central and Naperville North students or graduates. The first time it got stolen while she was at a church camp in Indiana sleeping.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
What The?
I think your post implies NC and NN kids are worse than NV and WV kids. If you followed our posts you would see the last person to steal my duaghters phone was from WVHS.
Former WV Mom admitted her daughter's phone was stolen. Not in her home but from her locked locker at WVHS by I assume, another WVHS student and not a NNHS or NCHS student.
Our last story ended happily because the 3 kids that the X-Treme dancer from WVHS bought to our home were well known by the X-Treme dancer and her WV Mom. She interviewed them and could tell from the responses who stole the cell phone. The family was very upset that kids who her daughter invited to our home could steal. They somehow got into the car of the offender and retrieved the cell phone. It was missing the sym card. They could not find the key to the house the kid stole.
This is about another current WV Mom who trusted her kids and knew their friends well....or thought she did. Ironically, when we called the other WV Mom for help the thief she trusted was in her home. She obviously did not know he was a thief as he was the friend of her children for quite a while
I am pretty sure he is not allowed in her home anymore. I am pretty sure she learned a lesson that the blogging former WV Mom has not learned yet. Like I said she has been lucky or really does not know if something is missing in her home.
We know from she and I, at least 2 bad apples exist at WVHS. One has a record of home invasion and one has a record of locker invasion. So be careful. That is all I have to say if you don't know who these 2 students are.
Theft is not limited to just NCHS and NNHS.
And please "What If?" don't be naive and think theft does not exist at NVHS just because I do not have any specific example to give you. Do an FOIA request with the NPD on current and former NVHS students and I bet you will find hundreds of criminals at that school too.
Anyway we are extremely grateful to the current WV Mom who was instrumental in getting my daughter's cell phone back. Having her 4th phone stolen by age 19 from her, in the "Best Place to Raise Kids in America" was a bit too overwhelming for her at such a young age.
And now we have kids painting X rated graffiti on a brand new football field at NN...what is next. No wonder Naperville is no longer making the grades for Best Place to Live in America in the CNN/Money ratings. I know high taxes in this town is another determining factor as to why Naperville will not be ranked highly anymore in the future, but let us save that for another thread and another day.
And since the suspects have not been found for the latest graffiti incident at NNHS, they could be from NVHS. At this point no one knows. When I was at the university most of our graffitti incidents were caused by our rivals. This should be a hint to help the NPD solve the latest crime.
I was responding to this comment "One would never think that so many teenagers in Naperville that attend Naperville Central and Naperville North could be thieves" from Advice to Parents of Teens. Wasn't this you originally? I have no idea if kids in your area are better or worse. All I know is that I haven't had this happen enough to say this about the kids at NVHS.
Of course there are thefts at NVHS. I said I have never had a theft FROM MY HOME by any of my children's friends or anyone else, for that matter. And yes, we would notice if anything of value is missing.
One thing we've had a problem with at NV is with calculators. There are these certain types of calculators that are required for some math classes. They cost $100 and are usually kept behind the check-out counters at Staples rather than on the racks; you have to ask for them. There is a thriving black market at Neuqua for these. They're routinely stolen and resold to students for around $20.
We'll see if those responsible for the vandalism at NNHS turn up. If it was done by a rival as you suggested, which is a good possibility, isn't NNHS's primary rival NCHS, since they're 203s two competing high schools? Just sayin'.
Maybe this was a separate post topic before & I don't recall, but I wondered what you all think about Twitter.
Kevin Spacey is on David Letterman tonight talking about Twitter. Kevin does Tweet but David doesn't get it & finds it a waste of time. I am feeling very odd or old, I'm not sure which, that I agree with Dave. I don't get it...as a society we are worried about stalkers (which yes I've had one...not fun!) and privacy for so much & then people tell you what they are doing all day long. I don't need to know you are at the grocery store buying toilet paper. I actually do not get Facebook either...seems just a popularity thing. Just saying "Hi...good luck" or "I'm on vacation" ? Why not blog? Blogging at least you can explain more & yes add pictures etc. Are we getting to a point where we can only handle short sentence messages? My younger siblings are trying to convince me & I just haven't received a good enough argument for it I guess?
Jesse James (Sandra Bullock's husband) is on saying when he was 5 yrs old he wrote *U on a piece of paper & tied it to a rock & threw it over the fence to the 80 yr old woman & that was his version of twitter! HA!
I think Twitter is inane ---- I don't really care what someone is eating, or waiting in line for, etc.
Advice to parents - How many cell phones you going to keep giving your daughter until she learnes to take care of it?
Yes, we did have a topic on Twitter not too long ago, but anyway, I think Twitter is pointless, but I do like Facebook. When I first signed up for Facebook I didn't use it much and didn't see the point, but as more of my friends got on it and started using it more often, it has become much more useful. It's great for someone my age to keep in touch with friends from high school and college who I don't see anymore but would still like to have be a part of my life. Basically, there is a human desire to be a part of something, and with Facebook you feel like you are a part of your friends' lives because you hear about them on a daily basis. Otherwise you may go months without talking to them, but this way you at least know when some significant or even minor event happens in their lives, at the time it happens. I suppose Twitter can do a lot of the same things, but I just think Facebook is better.
I hear Obama is planning a prime time news conference tonight on the health care proposal. I hope a lot of you plan to tune in, even if it is only to sling verbal rotten tomatoes. But in between swings, you might catch some reoccurring themes.
I posted previously that the problem with health care reform is that it is so multifaceted--the legal profession blocking tort reform, the AMA, the health care industry, the insurance companies, the pharmaceutical companies all blocking any kind of reform for fear that it will cut into their profits--that there is no one, or even several, easy solutions. Someone replied that there is not "a cabal of big businesses conspiring to screw all of us." No, they are not conspiring to screw all of us, but there is a cabal of big businesses that are frantically working against any reform because it's in their best interests to do so. It's called lobbying. Check it out:
"The major health interests have spent an average of $1.4 million per day to lobby Congress so far this year and are on track to spend more than half a billion dollars by the end 2009. That comes out to about $2,600 per day per member of the House and Senate. The pharmaceutical lobby alone spent $733,000 per day in the first quarter of 2009. Since 2000, the industries have spent over $3 billion on lobbying, with the total increasing every year and rising more than 142 percent over the course of the decade. In each of the past four years health interests have been the number-one lobbying force in Washington, measured in expenditures, and have averaged over $1 million per day.
Why spend so much? Three words: return on investment. While a drug company might spend a few million dollars lobbying, it stands to gain, or lose, billions in the outcome.
One big example: the 2003 Medicare drug legislation, under which Medicare began covering prescription drugs. One provision shifted poor, elderly consumers from Medicaid to Medicare - more bluntly, from a program where the government can negotiate with drug companies over prices, to a program where the new legislation prohibited such negotiations.
Most estimates find that the Medicaid-to-Medicare shift was worth billions of dollars for the drugmakers. Meanwhile, the Center for Responsive Politics puts the pharmaceutical industry’s 2003 lobbying expenditures at $126.1 million.
That would seem to be a bargain."
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.healthreformwatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/common-cause-graphic-edit-1024x640.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.healthreformwatch.com/2009/06/27/health-care-reform-lobbyists-and-the-importance-of-being-there/&usg=__r10JRGJYWvPy7XJ3sJwkOzjTfa0=&h=640&w=1024&sz=137&hl=en&start=16&tbnid=Xp2OqNl5QsNKjM:&tbnh=94&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dlobbying%2Bhealth%2Bcare%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG
This is why the status quo is so resistant to change. If it's a contest between what millions of Americans want vs. what some powerful and rich industries willing to spend millions on lobbying want, generally the lobbyists win. And in health care, you've got a lot of players--lawyers, doctors, insurers, pharmaceuticals, hospitals, HMOs, medical groups, biotech firms, etc., etc., all willing to spend whatever they have to in lobbying to promote their interests.
That's hard muscle for Capitol Hill to resist. Check out these charts listing the top Senate and House recipients, Democrats, Republicans, and Independents, of health care lobbying dollars:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.healthreformwatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/common-cause-graphic-edit-1024x640.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.healthreformwatch.com/2009/06/27/health-care-reform-lobbyists-and-the-importance-of-being-there/&usg=__r10JRGJYWvPy7XJ3sJwkOzjTfa0=&h=640&w=1024&sz=137&hl=en&start=16&tbnid=Xp2OqNl5QsNKjM:&tbnh=94&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dlobbying%2Bhealth%2Bcare%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG
That's the way it was 23 years ago when I was researching my undergrad thesis; it's the exact same way it is today.
So for those of you against any sweeping health care reform in favor of individually picking out the problem areas in our health care system and "solving" these, I can only tell you this has already been tried, time and again. Unsuccessfully. That's why we are where we are today.
By mayday on July 22, 2009 10:31 AM
Advice to parents - How many cell phones you going to keep giving your daughter until she learnes to take care of it?
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Very good question? I have asked that same question to myself. I usually delay buying her a new cell phone for a month or so she can sweat it a little bit.
In then end, a cell phone helps me track her. I can call and know where she is at. She can call if she is in trouble. The police can track her if she ever got in serious trouble. Therefore, there is a trade-off and I would rather the punishment be elsewhere.
In the end it is difficult to guard your possessions 24/7. Even WV Mom had to buy her daughter a new phone after a WB student broke into her locked locker and stole her daughter's phone. If my daughter had "friends of friends" she thought were trustworthy, over, I am not sure I can blame her 100% if an idiot decided to look in her purse and grab something, while she used the restroom for a split second in HER OWN HOME.
We thought the network this kid was in was up to par because he came with another dancer from X-Treme Dance. He had been in her home and her WV Mom had checked him out...sized him up....allowed him into her home numerous times.(not blogging Former WV Mom.)
In summary, people can take Former WV Mom's advice and let 60 students run around her home after she meets them briefly and hope for the best....or maybe hope for lots of luck.
Or they can take my advice and prohibit large groups from lingering and loitering in their basements.
I have tried pleasing both my older daughters by allowing them to host large groups. I let them even decorate the basement and have a Halloween Open Party. It was a day from hell with a cake fight developing and the carpet getting unimaginable stains. Thankfully, the basement flooded 3 months later and the insurance company replaced it for us. It was only one year old.
I say if you value your home and kids, keep large groups of kids out of your home. There are public places in Naperville that are more equipped to handle large groups of kids. I will be using them to handle the needs of my last 2 children as they hit the teenage years. In the end, even the cost will be less. Most of these public places have video surveillance so it is easier to track the cell phone and calculator thieves. Yes, as another blogger stated, I believe they are traded on the black market for 20 bucks each. Those who steal them probably use the money to satisfy their drug and alcohol addictions since their parents probably don't give them money for either.
Anyway, I hope people take my advice. They won't regret it. If you take former WV Mom's advice it is like rolling the dice in Las Vegas. You can win temporarily as she did, but in the end the HOUSE always wins. Yes, the HOUSE ALWAYS WINS UNLESS YOU ARE IN DENIAL!
What The ?,
I saw this on CNN's political ticker. It sounds like Obama has a number of fellow Democrats to convince along with the rest of us. I'm anxious to hear his conference, hopefully he will supply some answers for us in the middle class. I'm most curious how he intends to raise taxes on businesses and not expect it to trickle down to me. Oh well, I'm sure he will explain it all in detail.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/tag/cnn-senior-congressional-correspondent-dana-bash/
One Democratic senator tells CNN congressional Democrats are “baffled,” and another senior Democratic source tells CNN members of the president’s own party are still “frustrated” that they’re not getting more specific direction from him on health care.
You may want to make sure you check previous posts before you respond to things. My daughter was never the one to get anything stolen. Her older brother had an Ipod stolen from a locked locker while he was at practice. And we did not ever buy him a new one. He paid for half of it with his own cash, and the rest with a Target gift card his grandparents gave him for his birthday. And he waited a good 2-3 months until he got a new one.
My daughter accidentally dropped her phone and broke it. She paid for the replacement herself.
Neither of my kids ever had anything else stolen. And neither has broken another phone.
Again, I will reiterate, know your kids well, know their friends well. Talk to every kid as they come in your home, chances are you won't have an issue like the ones you have. Sounds like "What the" is doing the same things I am and it's working for him/her too.
Gee What the ? Do I watch the Sox game or do I watch Obama read a teleprompter telling ME I no longer have pro-choice for MY health care and MY medical treatment? Oh well, I'm sure the moron will explain it all in detail for YOU.
By Former WV Mom on July 22, 2009 3:55 PM
You may want to make sure you check previous posts before you respond to things. My daughter was never the one to get anything stolen. Her older brother had an Ipod stolen from a locked locker while he was at practice.
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Former WV Mom,
This is a very minor technicality that does not dispute the point I was making. That bad students also exist at WVHS just like NNHS and NCHS.
Wheter it was a phoneless Ipod or a cell phone that was taken out of the locked locer at WVHS what difference does it really make? Whether it was your son's or daughter's Ipod what differnce does it really make to the debate we are having? Honesty, it makes no difference. Your point is POINTLESS.
People can listen to you and have large groups of teenagers circling in their houses and suffer the pending and imminent consequences.
Or people can listen to me and keep large groups of teenagers out of their homes and not suffer the pending and imminent consequences.
We live in an evil world. People can come to your house and see a safe. The next thing they are blabbering about it innocently. Then a criminal hears them and kills you and your husband to take the safe.
It just happened in Florida to one of the nicest and most trusting couples in the world. To a couple that devoted their lives to raising 16 handicapped or challenged children. They even had video surveillance to deter this kind of activity. It did not work. I am willing to bet your are taking these massive risks without even having video surveillance in your home since you appear to be the trusting kind.
In the Florida case it was not one loose cannon...not a whacko. It was literally a small army of thugs. Eight have been arrested so far and they are looking at 4 more suspects or persons of interest. Do you think these kinds of thugs only live in Florida, former WV Mom? They are everywhere including in Illinois and possibly Naperville.
People need to protect themselves from evil doers, Former WV Mom. I know you mean very well, but you are endangering families thoughout Naperville with your well-intentioned but ill advice.
I just want people to understand that there is another side to your good fortunes so far. Families with young kids need to be AWARE and not NAIVE as to what awaits them as their kids get older.
Nice health care news conference Obama. Looking very presidential and saying nothing! Zero! Nada! This guy has 15 months experience as a U.S. Senator and that is about it. Why am I not surprised he said nothing, had no charts, graphs or other presentation materials ultimatley failing to change the hearts and minds of his skeptics. I called the White House 202-456-1213 and expressed my displeasure. Can't wait to see the polls tomorrow. Way to go What the ?. You can sure pick a winner.
To Anonymous on July 22, 2009 6:54 PM
and Anonymous on July 22, 2009 9:44 PM:
All you Anons must be the same person, you all sound the same. Closed minds and open mouths. Stick to the Sox games, it's less of a challenge for you. Charts, graphs, presentation materials? What do you think this is, a high school class? Go back to school and get your GED if you want "presentation materials", this is grown-up life. No one's going to draw you a picture if you don't get it.
And yes, I can pick a winner. O's in the White House. So there.
The reason I was correcting you earlier was really to get across a different point that you seemed to miss. The point that we did not replace the one item stolen or the one that was broken because we felt our kids did hold some culpability in the situations. Our son should have left the Ipod at home. Our daughter needed to be more careful. Teens tend to be much more careful with things if they have to pay to replace them with their own money and mommy or daddy don't bail them out all the time.
Not allowing your kids, if they are well behaved, trustworthy, good thinkers, making good choices, to not have kids over to hang out means they may end up hanging out at another home where the parents may not be as on top of things or aren't supervising at all.
Anomalies happen. Comparing any of this to the incident in Florida is utterly ridiculous, which is why I never responded to that posts and posts ago. That is what I mean when I say you blow things entirely out of proportion. Should we all live our lives in fear every day? Should we all just lock ourselves and our kids up in our homes just in case a one in a billion case like the one in Florida occurs? Should the people with younger kids right now just give up in fear from what you are saying? Or maybe they could consider some of the things I have said and start putting some work in now to minimize the chances of having problems with teenagers in their home.
I'm sorry you have had such bad luck in your home. But it's your kids and your kids' friends that are causing these issues in your home. It is not teens in general. Yes there are some bad apples out there, but there are a heck of a lot of good ones too.
Chris...
I do see a bit of a difference with Facebook but is knowing what is going on in a person's life actually being a part of their life? Feeling like you are vs really are? I know...but interesting to me where we are going in society. I must be getting old & well, being in the discipline I am in, but it is just not the same to me. General postings & responding is still quite depersonalized than a phone call or email, much less getting together. In fact, could it actually be reducing those even more? I know some are benefiting employment wise making connections so I see some benefit but at the same time it really makes me wonder where we are heading. We'll see what I do in the future though????
OWVY, I do know what you mean. There is a definite dumbing down in our society and I hear stories of students who write their high school papers in "text" language. As someone who has loved books and writing my whole life, that is appalling. It certainly shouldn't be the only method of communication, but it is good supplemental communication. At least in my case, many of the people I keep up with on Facebook are people who otherwise I just wouldn't talk to anymore. Many of them I haven't seen since high school, but I found them on Facebook. It's not the same as a real friendship where you do things together in person, but it's better than the alternative. And for those people you do see in person, Facebook is an entry point to face to face discussion. Many times I've said to a person, or had them say to me, "I saw on Facebook you did so and so ..." and then we talk about it. I didn't think Facebook would be useful at first, but now its gotten so I check it when I get up and before I go to bed and usually a time or two in between.
Sources within City Hall have tipped me off that yet another nightclub is coming to downtown Naperville. Blackfinn American Saloon with a New York theme will be locating on Jefferson Ave. between Washington and Main Street where so many pops and moms have gone out of business in recent months.
I guess downtown will one day be 100% bars, restaurants, lounges, taverns, nightclubs and now saloons. The way it is going we will soon have New York Style Peep Shows. Korean Massage Parlors. And why not some Las Vegas style Gentlemen Clubs. What the hell maybe Naperville can legalize prostitution and add a Chicken Ranch Brothel that our kids can pass by while they go to Lou Malnati's or Cold Stone Creamery.
Pretty soon we will need 17 cops and a canine dog on the corner of Washington St. and Jefferson Ave in addition to the 17 cops and canine dog on Chicago Ave when the bars let out. This New York Style Saloon is estimating 5-6 million in sales. This is a lot more drunks for the police to handle.
While I plan on checking out Blackfinn American Saloon as it sounds like an exciting concept, I am a little worried about the tax impact on my real estate properties and of others in Naperville.
Anyway, I hope City Hall understands the conseqences of converting downtown to a 100% Party District. I would like to see at least one block in downtown saved for family type businesses before it is too late. What happened to limits on liquor licenses we once had?
Let us face it only alcohol serving establishments can afford the high rents and high taxes in downtown. I would like to see one block with lower rent and lower taxes in order not to run the rest of the mom and pop shops and non-alcoholic establishments out of dt Naperville. In order that we have a few ice cream and pizza shops left for the kids.
Sadly, despite all these saloons coming to town, we are still subsidizing the downtown. Yes, the residential homeowners are. It seems to me if these saloons are coming from all over the country to locate in Naperville they must be certain that it is profitable to establish such places in dt Naperville. I say welcome to all of them but please pay whatever it takes to support the downtown. Please don't expect subsidies from the taxpayers while you take your profits not only out of our city, but out of the state. Please pay your fair share to keep our downtown bustling and thriving. Please pay your fair share to help pay for the massive police presence you need in order to be able to intoxicate your customers while the police deal with the consequences.
Let us face it these saloons, old and new, will never voluntarily step up to the plate. The City of Naperville must step up to the plate and make sure these places are self-sufficient when it comes to city provided services.....in other words NO MORE SUBSIDIES from the taxpayers.
BlackFinn American Saloon appears to have a long term lease signed contingent to obtaining a liquor license. They have plans to open up in a couple of months. They don't want anyone to know for now so they don't encounter any resistance in obtaining their liquor license. Once they get their liquor license, you will see them advertise their location big time. But you will not hear a word about them until they have all the i's dotted and t's crossed with our City Officials out of the public eye in almost secrecy. Why do we the taxpayers not have any input in the decision as to who comes downtown since we subsidize them with our home real estate taxes?
If you have any objections, this may be your only window of opportunity to stand up and be counted...to object if you will. Don't complain after it is too late. It won't do any good. The city will never publicize anything that will encounter resisitance that they want approved. It appears to me the city wants BlackFinn American Saloon to join the Party District. Next, expect them to ask for part of the street in front of them for valet parking. Pretty soon we will not have any street parking left in dt Naperville. Those use to be our streets and we pretty much gave them to the saloons for NOTHING! For Nothing! Why? Why not a $2000 a year annual license fee for the right to use our taxpayer streets for valet parking by each establishment that wants to have valet rights?
Yes, The BlackFinn American Saloon will be on Jefferson Ave between Washington & Main and coming very very soon. Trust me as I am not a used car salesman, that feeds you bull.
Thomas:
Yep, I've been aware for weeks that some Democrats, especially but not exclusively the Blue Dogs, are having cold feet about health care reform. Who knows what's going on there. Change is risky, especially big changes that can hold politicians accountable. I think it is freaking out a lot of the Capitol Hill crowd. And let's not forget lobbying pressures.
O talks about raising taxes on the wealthy, the top 1% of wage earners that have benefited most from the last 8 years of TAX CUTS by the Bush administration. I'm sure they'll handle a small increase just fine after so many years of being taxed less than the rest of us. I've never heard him say anything about taxing "businesses". I didn't hear him say anything about taxing businesses last night, either. The only time I heard O mention businesses was in reference to the fact that many of them could not afford to give their employees health insurance anymore and that the current cost structures were breaking them.
Seriously, tho, you don't want to get me started on the trickle down stuff and the fear mentality of the average American wage earner. It's best we don't go there.
To: What?
You might want to use data instead of soundbites ---- the top 1% now pay the highest amount of taxes ever, a number that significantly ROSE the last 8 years.
What The ?,
Yes, Change is the key word here. My company has recently begun questioning why none of us like "change" and why can't we accept it because after all we have been taught that "the only constant is change"! My response to my supervisor was to list the 5 most recent changes to my role with the company.
1. A change in the commission plan (I will earn less for the same amount of sales).
2. A change to the stock option plan (Won't get them for 2 years)
3. A change in responsibility (I now have 40% more area to cover for the same pay).
4. A change in personnel - 20% of my colleagues were laid off.
5. A change in our health care plan - I now have to pay 25% more in premiums.
(I realize that I am lucky enough not to have a change in my employment status). So yes, I told him that change has a negative connotation, and that everytime we change something it costs me money. Just once I'd like to hear that they are making a change and doubling my raise, adding vacation time, or giving me something I hadn't counted on. Now there's a change I could like.
I submit to you that many people have been conditioned that change is not what it's cracked up to be - could be semantics I don't know? When we hear "massive change" it freaks everyone out.
The taxes will be increased to the "richest 1%" (I never liked this phrase when Gore used it, and I still don't). But the richest 1% are those that make over 350K (jointly) which includes many small business owners. These owners are on record as saying the increase will be passed along. It's also not a stretch to consider that Democrats have made it known they will be taxing large businesses (Exxon, GM, Wal Mart) who they consider to be profitable and as you mentioned, "I'm sure they'll handle a small increase just fine". These businesses will pass the increases along on things we buy. Look what the Illinois dems have done with the liquor tax starting in Sept. (and more related to the dire straits Illinois is in rather than health care). If I was someone who purchased booze (snick, snick) I will begin paying more for it once the increase goes through.
And for my buddy Bush and his tax cuts. With the recent times I have had to cash in some long held mutual funds - I paid a 15% capital gain on them because they are long term. This is down from 20 and 27% capital gains in the past so in my case while I'm not in the richest 1% I certainly benefitted from paying less tax which I then turned around and used to buy a new washer and dryer (true story).
Big secret CIJ? LOL. http://www.blackfinnchicago.com/naperville/faq.php
To Anonymous on July 23, 2009 11:34 AM--
I'm sure. Aren't pliable statistics great?
Has anyone else noticed there are suddenly Japanese beetles all over the place? Every time I go out on my deck I see them buzzing around, and they're chewing up my bean plants. I don't recall ever seeing them in past years. Looks like another invasive pest making itself at home in our area.
By Anonymous on July 23, 2009 1:45 PM
Big secret CIJ? LOL. http://www.blackfinnchicago.com/naperville/faq.php
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My tip led you to the out-of state corporate web site which verified my claim. Without my tip, you would have never known.
The company is trying to keep it hush hush locally. They are taking over the old Tessa and do not even have a sign in the window of the store. That should tell you in itself, they are trying to keep it a SECRET locally for now. Notice Charles Schwabb has been promoting in his windows months before he opens. He is not worried about any resident's resistence. He does not need a liquor license to operate.
As I said BlackFinn Saloon wants to keep this low key with little local resistance until all the i's and t's are dotted on its licensing. I suspect the City wants to do the same as they convert the downtown from a once beautiful family destination to "Sin and Drink City." City Officials are not satisfied that we have the second most DUI's in the state. They want to be the Champion DUI City in the state since they have given all hope of being the "Best Place to Raise Kids in the USA."
Without my tip, neither you or most people would have known about this new liquor establishment until they made the official announcement. That is a FACT. It is nice to know a few employees, officials OR council members at City Hall. Do you know anyone at City Hall, Anonymous?
Searching the national web would have never led you to this story. There are trillions of web pages on the international interent web. You need a tip to do your search and I provided you with a tip that made your search possible. You need a name to do a search. I provided you with the full name.
If you are so smart give me the name of the next saloon that will be opening in dt Naperville before I tip you off....not after. That is a challenge for you. Are you up for the challenge?
So the laugh is on you for using MY tip to get more information. In the future try to give credit where credit is due. BTW, thanks for verifying the accuracy of my tip.
How many stories have you broken on this blog site? None. I broke many including the Moser/Harris bankrupty at Seven Bridges. Sure, if someone searched the Dupage Records they could have discovered it....but no one did and no one had any reason to until MY tip. Moser and Harris were not going to publicize their fateful bankruptcy. It is like saying my tip was worthless because it was already hidden in lengthy court records in the basement of Dupage County..lol...at you.
People don't make searches or investigations unless they have a tip or a lead. I provided tips as a good Citizen Investigative Journalist. Do you think the Naperville Sun has journalists working full time at City Hall and Dupage County sifting through records? Plus at City Hall if you try to go through official channels, they won't give you anything without a Freedom of Information Request or a Notice to Produce. Hopefully, you know that, if you have been blogging with us for a while.
You have done nothing as an Anonymous Blogger but blabber.
Former Moderator Jim Lynch and former Host Ted Slovik asked you to step up to the plate and be a Citizen Journalist. It is time you stepped up to the plate and showed us what you have to offer. So far, it has been NOTHING!
So there was Obama last night acting presidential and giving a news conference justifying his socialization of health care until at the end. A washed up and washed out (Geez Lynn you are on national TV) Sun Times reporter asked about some black scholar arrested after breaking into his own home because he acted like an A$$hole. Our smartest president ever allows the entire purpose of the evening to be side tracked (where he really did not say anything anyway). He spouts off about an incident he really knows little about and makes ingnorant and supidly comments looking very unpresidential. Today I was reading a police website and one of the comments made me think of What the ? and her unbridled and can you not think support for anything from the Democrats. It read: Obama is an accronym for Our Big A$$ Mistake America. Lets hope we can correct it by 2012 and hope this affirmative action experiment with people like What the ? clearing her conscious does not damage the nation too stupidly. So there!
Whats the matter CIJ? Afraid it might take business away from your favorite watering holes? You don't seem opposed to bars or night clubs or restaurants in other towns. You are such a hypocrite.
Glock, please don't use swear words with dollar signs to make them not be swear words. Just pick a less offensive term.
To: By what the? on July 23, 2009 2:24 PM
There is nothing pliable about data.
Data is hard fact. I am referring to actual dollars and cents, not meaningless percentages which cannot be spent.
Say, when is the last time any of us spent a percentage? But we spend lots of dollars and cents!
:)
ToBy Chris Magee, moderator on July 23, 2009 2:57 PM :
Chris,
They have been around forever.
They start out as grubs in your lawn, than become the dreaded Japenese beetle.
They can do a lot of damage to both your lawn and the rest of your yard. The best way to handle them is simple:
Keep a bucket of soapy water around, catch them by hand off of your plants, and throw them into the bucket.
It sounds tedious (and is), but it is very effective and keeps you from spraying a lot of useless poisons that really don't control them very well.
By Fed UP With The Noise on July 23, 2009 4:50 PM
Whats the matter CIJ? Afraid it might take business away from your favorite watering holes? You don't seem opposed to bars or night clubs or restaurants in other towns. You are such a hypocrite.
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Fed Up with HIS own Noise,
I am not opposed to nice saloons downtown Naperville. I am opposed to the subsidization that is created by their presence. I would be opposed to Gentlemen's Clubs, Korean Massage Parlors that deliver Happy Endings, and Las Vegas Style Chicken Ranches also know as brothels.
The Seven Bridges Life Time Plaza has several bars and lounges. One of which I frequent. You will find no stationed police in that humongous plaza despite have many liquor licenses and a huge theater complex. They come if they are called and do their routine checks every hour or so. The liquor licensees appear to have adequate security and the plaza has no major problems. I have yet to see my first fight in that plaza. I have seen dozens and dozen in downtown NAPERVILLE. Maybe the massive police presence in dt Naperville emboldens the patrons to fight since they know the police will step in and break it up before one or the other delivers a knock out bunch. I really don't know why there are so many fights and arrests on Chicago Ave and Washington St.
In downtown Naperville, I witnessed 17 cops and a canine dog the other day on ONE INERSECTION during a fist fight between 2 guys while their girl friends did their thing. A more typical evening is about a dozen cops. Think TAX DOLLARS when you see so many cops on one intersection. Think your home is not being protected because all the night beat cops are literally on one intersection. Stabbings and robberies have taken i place in other parts of town, while the City of Naperville parades its Crown Jewel DT with its Army of Police. Sometimes I feel like I am living in a communist police state when I see Armies of Cops. No other town wastes taxpayer money in this insane way. Check out Oak Brook, Lombard or Downers Grove. You will not see this insanity. Oak Brook is loaded with bars and does not even assess a real estate tax on their residential home dwellers. We need to ask ourselves what we are doing wrong. What happened in 25 years to cause our home real estate taxes to quadruple? Is there any end in sight to these 11% escalations in our annual real estate tax bills? How long are the residents willing to tolerate them before they say enough is enough.
Also, Woodridge does not build and subsidize parking decks for their liquor licensees. The landlords are required to come up with the required parking. Seven Bridges had plans for a parking deck but as you know went bankrupt so the project was halted. Do you think Woodridge taxpayers would ever build a parking deck for the bars in their "Nightclub District" like we here do in Naperville? Of course not!
So that is really the BIG DIFFERNCE. The only hypocrisy is a figment of your imagination, Mr. Noisemaker.
I have no interest in protecting any watering hole from its competitors. My only interest is keeping my taxes and those of my neighbors affordable. My only interest is kicking the drunken sailors out of town before they kick me out of town because I can not afford the taxes on such projects like OMNIA that are fully subsidized by the Naperville Taxapyer. Many times, I have been told to leave this town by the drunken sailors who want to spend and spend recklessly. I am not leaving. I am remaining to expose them. They should leave for being wasteful and not me for wanting some frugalness.
As I have said numerous times, you make so much NOISE on this blog site, I am surprised you have not blown your eardrums out yet.
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PS. And speaking of hypocrisy, aren't you the one that asked your fellow bloggers not to correspond with me so I would "go away." Why is it that you can not practice what you preach to others? Your buddies Anonymous One and Keyboard Rambo can't seem to honor the boycott either. I guess you found out how much influence you folks have on this blog site.....ZERO....ZILCH. So please stop making so much NOISE and DEAFENING yourself and your fellow stooges.
You are so impressed with your self - you seem to think you are the smartest, most important blogger to ever come across this site. you seem to feel you are the only one who has any insight or valid perspective on how Naperville should be run and what is good or not good for the city. You who apparently see corruption in every facet of city government, greed and graft and theft at ever turn by every public servant
Your constant pandering to the editor, your holier than thou attitude, your constant berating of any one who disagrees with you on any subject - all shows us how shallow and insecure you really are. Your advocacy of the beating of children - your hatred of police - all make many ask what is wrong with you and what horrible things happened to you in your life to make you so angry and bitter and anti social. You are to be pitied.
By Former WV Mom on July 23, 2009 1:19 AM
That is what I mean when I say you blow things entirely out of proportion. Should we all live our lives in fear every day? Should we all just lock ourselves and our kids up in our homes just in case a one in a billion case like the one in Florida occurs?
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The Florida case is not a one in a billion. Robberies, home invasions and murders are rampant throughout the United States.
This case is only a one to a billion due the international publicity it is receiving because the victims were very wealthy and very generous. They were raising 16 handicapped and challenged kids that were mostly adopted. They were the last people on earth who deserved to be murdered....and yet they were murdered.
Most robberies and murders in the USA only make the local newspaper, if that. They get no national publicity so we know nothing about them or their unfortunate victims.
We should not live our lives scared. But we need to be cautious and careful. Very cautious and careful!
You have chose to take a risk and let people rampage through your house because they introduced themselves to you on the way in. That is your right and prerogative.
I have chose to not take any more risks after taking risks for 10 years and suffering the consequences.
You made your very good point and I made my very good point.
Bloggers who have children approaching the teenage years can take your advice or my advice. They have a choice. We gave them choices and they know the consequences either way in advance of their future decisions.
Unless, they have your excellent gut feeling about detecting honesty, I strongly recommed they take my safe advice.
Hey, Glock!
I just love this!
"He spouts off about an incident he really knows little about and makes ingnorant (sic) and supidly (sic) comments." Who's really looking ingnorant and supidly? LOL!!
Stick to the armed insurrection thing, at least you can spell that.
To Anonymous on July 23, 2009 5:30 PM--
Nope, not buying it. Data, just like statistics, can be manipulated and interpreted to substantiate differing things. Percentage-wise, the top 1% paid less in taxes in the past 8 years than their much poorer counterparts, thanks to the Bush admins tax cuts for the uber rich. Goggle Warren Buffet's comments on this subject.
And Glock, uber is not a misspelling. It is German for over or beyond; in its usage here means "super". Just wanted to save you the embarrassment of jumping all over it.
"You have chose to take a risk and let people rampage through your house because they introduced themselves to you on the way in. That is your right and prerogative."
Rampage through my house? I don't think so. That seems to be your house you are talking about there. Just because you have no control of the kids that come in your house, does not mean other people don't. As I have said numerous times, the kids that have always come in my house have been respectful and well behaved. A little noisy at times, but that's about it. And they don't just introduce themselves as they come in. As I also said, I already know them. As they come in to my house they actually talk to me and touch base with me.
Again...the rampage comment is you exaggerating and blowing things out of proportion. You seem to have gained quite the reputation on these boards. Maybe you should spend less time on here and more time actually paying attention to your kids and their friends when they are in your house.
In the meantime for me, I am totally done with wasting my time on you. After hearing the comments of other people on here, I relaize you are just not worth my time.
Fed Up with His Own Noise,
I love your propaganda of hatred.
1. I hate the police:
False. I disliked how one police officer handled the Napergate Man because he had a suspended license due to a toll that was not his fault. Suddenly, you call that "hatred of police." Barack Obama did not like how the Cambridge Police Dept. handled his friend who was locked out of his house and called the actions of the dept. utter stupidity. BTW, I agree with our President. Does that means he also has low self esteem and is a cop hater? In both cases each man spent 4 hours in jail to satisfy the ego of police officers and not to further any good cause, justice or provide some kind of deterrence effect to future generations.
While the Professor may have said a word or two during his moment of frustration, that is no reason to charge and arrest him. In the case of the Napergate Man, there is no evidence he even cussed on the police officer. He simply asked if he could take his dog home and turn himself in. Instead they dumped his friend and dog in downtown Naperville forcing them to walk 5 miles in the middle of the night as no tax cab would take a dog. President Obama may have also said the Naperville Police Dept. acted stupidly if he was apprised of the Napergate Fiasco, but I never used such a strong word against the NPD.
If I disagree with the actions of a police officer that rises to the level of HATRED, Mr. Noisemaker. Where is Former WV Mom to tell you that you may be exaggerating. Shame on your shameful propaganda and lies. My only claim was the police officer did not use appropriate discretion in arresting the Napergate Man considering his long and sensitive history in this town. Many bloggers who were not me came on and condemned the action of the police officer and some even cussed on him. I can not take responsibilty for what others say. I gave 10 examples of people cussing from 1 thread when I was challenged by John Q. Public.
Yes, I once used fictional characters and many times people would use my own fictional characters and attack the police and then knowingly attack me for making remarks I did not make. Do you folks think blogs are a courtroom where people are sworn to the truth under oath before they are cross examined? Wishful thinking.....
It is about gamemanship to destroy the credibility of a good messenger with a great message that you can not refute. All who have tried to play games with me have been sliced, diced and shredded. They run away after I expose them. Experienced claimed he was a Forensic Accountant and could not even perform a simple calculation. After I exposed him, he ran away. No one has heard from him in weeks. I guess he was too embarrassed to come back to this blog site after claiming it was me who miscalcualted when it was him.
2. You who apparently see corruption in every facet of city government, greed and graft and theft at ever turn by every public servant.
Very nice fabrications, Noisemaker. Calling City Officials drunken sailors who waste taxpayer money does not rise to the level of corruption. Saying our city officials are guilty of improprieties does not rise to the level of corruption.
Name one public servant that I accused of theft. I never made such a dangerous allegation but you are libeling me by stating such a falsehood against me that you fabricated in a tired attempt to defame my reputation.
I am against City Employees receiving a 75% pension after 30 years on the job. We have paid 21.16% in matching funds only to end up in a 61.4 million pension deficit hole. I am concerned about the city having to file a Chapter 9 reorganization due to the hole it has dug itself in. If you call this greed, be my guest. I never used such a word. Again, nothing but a fabrication on your part from your blaring horns.
3. Your constant pandering to the editor.
I rarely address the editor. I only address him when he comes on and says these childish attacks are escalating and most be stopped. I just like to remind him who starts them. Once again, I am not talking to you and you stick yourself in the middle with attacks. You have agreed to boycott me which I enjoyed so much and now you are attacking again. You apparently are upset that people love to debate me. You seem like a sicko who is simply jealous and now upset that your proposed boycott against me proved to be a massive failure....your own hypocrite self could not even honor it for a short week before you broke down and made a fool of yourself in front of all those you preached in front of.
4.Your constant berating of any one who disagrees with you on any subject.
Former WV Mom and I have had a very good debate on this thread. A very respectful debate. I don't agree with her. I am debating her because I don't agree with her and not because I agree with her. She is a very good debator but she does not see my point or agree with it. I don't see her point or agree with her. We pretty much agreed to disagree before you stuck your Noisy Nose in the middle. No one is berating her. She is not berating me. But in my opinion she is innocent and naive and you were able to influence her just a little. I always thought her judgment of personality traits was off just a little bit. She has minor temper tantruns where she annouces she will not debate me anymore, when your likes spew their propaganda and she falls for it, but a day later she is back debating. Unlike yourself, she is a very pleasant woman whom I respect very much even though I think she is overly trusting and naive.
5. Your advocacy of the beating of children.
I never advocated beating children and I never beat a child or an adult. I think parents who want to spank with their hands or belts should be allowed to do so when all else fails. I stated I was belted by my father. I never stated I belted my kids. I would have liked to have the option though while raising them.
Most parents that use belts on their kids use it more to scare the child in a pretentious way. They just want the child to respect his time-out. If the child wants to avoid the belt, he needs to return to his time-out. I did spank my children when they violated their 10 minute time-outs. What other options did I really have? I was not about to let them think they are the Boss of the House. I do not posses all the magical powers of Former WV Mom.
My kids are just fine. I have a daughter competing for National Championship in Jazz and Hip Hop this coming week in Myrtle Beach. I have a another child who qualifed for city time in all his strokes and will be competing for the Naperville City Championship this weekend in swimming. They both get very good grades in school. Without the spankings, I don't think they would have excelled as many times they wanted to skip their practices when they were young.
We all know Michael Jackson would not have excelled without his belt lashings...neither would Tiger Woods. Kids will not practice hard if they are not pushed. They need to be pushed and the belt should be a very last resort...but it should be allowed as a final option when all else fails. I have never had to use it and I hope I never have to.
City of Naperville firing the Former Fire Chief for mildly punching his 18 year old misbehaved son in the chest, does not send a good message to either parents or kids. Maybe the fire chief was trying to keep his son away from heroin. I saw a neighbor beat his adult son in public because his son wanted heroin. Heroin is no laughing matter. I would also probably beat my son up if he tried to buy heroin. After I knocked some sense in him and he came to his senses, I am sure he would realize I saved him from a 10 year jail sentence. Bloggers have to ask themselves would they rather see their kids spend long years in jail or beat them up till they came to their senses? Ask your kid what they would rather have if it ever got down to it.
You call this advocating of beating children. Sorry but I think you have loose screws and bearings upstairs. Maybe if your Dad took the belt out, you would not be acting like a spoiled Kindergarten Child on this blog site.
My opinions are known. People on this blog site clearly know what I stand for and believe in. You stand for nothing, Noisemaker but Noise. You are simply infamously known for your personal attacks. The Moderator asked you and your likes to stop behaving like Kindergarten Children. And you continue to come back and disobey the Moderator and act like a KGC. Don't you ever get tired of your acrobatics?
6. All make many ask what is wrong with you and what horrible things happened to you in your life to make you so angry and bitter and anti social.
I enjoy writing and blogging on political and tax issues. I enjoy being a Civilian Investigative Journalist for the Naperville Sun blog site. The former Host and the former Moderator made this calling to us and I thought it was an excellent calling. They explained the Naperville Sun had limited resources and needed our help.
I like to expose and fight high taxes which result from government waste. "This makes me angry, bitter and anti-social...lol." I pay over 60k in real estate taxes and I am trying to reduce my taxes by exposing how they are wasted. This to you is an indication that something horrible happened to me in my life. Nothing horrible happened to me in my life. I actually feel very fortunate that I have a great education with graduate degrees, have above average wealth, very good health and have 4 very bright children.
My kids are involved in swimming, soccer, tennis, weight lifting, water polo, jazz and hip hop all in just this one summer. I have a full time job and with my spouse who also works full time we try to run the kids around from event to event with the assistance of many car pools. Every one of these events has a social activity for the parents at the end of the season that I religiously attend. I am involved in more social activities than I can comfortably handle...and you call me anti-social.
I enjoy a drink with other parents and have been to the Tilted Kilt, Quigleys, Bar Louie, Charlie Cabanas and Jilly's in the last 30 days. That is about all the social I can handle....call me anti-social all you like because I am against higher taxes and government waste. Maybe your new definition of anti-social will catch on and every one will want to be anti-social and hopefully join me on the front steps of Naperville City Hall on April 15, 2010.
Like I said before, I enjoy blogging more than watching a baseball game. Watching a baseball game has no redeeming value. It brings nothing but temporary instant gratification. Who can remember anything about a regular season baseball game of 10 years ago? Therefore, in my humble opinion, it was a waste of time and money.
I don't watch movies. I believe in participating and being involved in life and not watching it go by you. Those who go to movies and baseball games have no life and are trying to live their lives and dreams through others. I suspect this is the case with Blogger Fed Up with His Own Noise as his life revolves around watching what others do while his life passes by him having accomplished NOTHING.NOTHING! ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
Former WV Mom:
I think that you've discovered what many of us have also discovered over time. To quote war games, an old movie you may have seen:
"A strange game. The only winning move is not to play."
To: By what the? on July 23, 2009 10:00 PM
Alas, you are tragically uninformed on taxes, my friend.
I don't have a lot of time right now (and I believe you don't have any casts on your typing fingers), but the following should suffice:
>Top 10% of earners paid 67.8% of all taxes in 2001
>Top 10% of earners paid 72.4% of all taxes in 2005.
----As you can see, they paid more as a percent and, I assure you, more in total dollars as a result of the alleged Bush cuts for "..only the rich"
>Lowest 60% of earners paid 3.3% of all taxes in 2001
>Lowest 60% of earners paid less than 1% of all taxes in 2005
----As you can see, the lowest earners paid less as a percent AND, again I assure you, less in total dollars under the Bush cuts.
The above info is directly from the non-partisan CBO.
Thomas:
Loved your post! Very good point about our attitudes towards change. It is true, just about all change in the workplace is negative. If it is not negative, then it is generally followed by a quantifier such as "We've made some changes, but don't worry, they're good ones!", so folks don't freak out in advance. I would say this is less true outside of the workplace, but it sure is inside.
I made special note of #5:
5. A change in our health care plan - I now have to pay 25% more in premiums.
This was an interesting thing for you to throw in, since these last posts have been about the new health care option. Kinda makes at least one of my points, doesn't it?
Of course big business will pass those costs on to us--that's what businesses do, whether it's taxes, fuel costs, increases in minimum wage, they'll pass as much of that cost on to consumers as they can. Is that a good enough reason not to do anything? Your health care premiums just went up another 25% and we haven't done anything yet.
Congrats on the new purchase. But you know, even if the capital gains tax had been 20%-27%, you still would have taken that money out if you had needed it, and you still would have bought that washer and dryer if you had needed it too. I'm glad you caught a break, but the capital gains and dividend tax cuts have benefited those in $1MM+ range the most, the jump is huge. Take a look:
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1008
To Anonymous on July 24, 2009 9:33 AM:
You really have to look beyond blanket earning statements. Yes, the top 10% of earners will have paid more in taxes because they have more overall income to tax. But as a percentage of their individual income, many in the highest income range pay a smaller tax percentage on their income than their poorer counterparts. Like I suggested, take a few minutes and Google Warren Buffet on this. He's made some very public statements about the inequity of the tax structure as it's existed for the last 8 years. One in particular I remember was that he stated his secretary, who made around $30G/yr, paid a higher rate percentage-wise on her salary than he did on his billions.
I admit I'm far from an expert on the ins and outs of tax structures. But I do understand that Bush's and Reagan's "trickle down" economic theories were a way to change a progressive tax structure, which the U.S. and most countries have, into a more regressive one for those at the utmost top of the food chain, the theory being that if they were left with more money in their pockets they would spend it in such a way as to benefit the U.S. economy. Overall, this hasn't really panned out. The upper income class as seen their wealth grow in the last 8 years while the middle class, the supposed beneficiaries of all this "trickling", has stagnated. I think trickle down is not worth the price society pays for it. As we saw from the economic crisis last fall, only s*** rolls downhill (sorry, Chris, but it's better than using a $).
But I'm up for learning more. Post a link to where you're getting your info and I'll check it out.
By Anonymous on July 14, 2009 12:43 AM
BTW, we don't drink or allow our kids to drink. We don't smoke either and thankfully none of our kids smoke. So we have tried our best but have not always succeeded as you alleged to have in keeping losers away from our home and our kids.
By Citizen Investigative Journalist on July 24, 2009 7:43 AM
Former WV Mom and I have had a very good debate on this thread.
I enjoy a drink with other parents and have been to the Tilted Kilt, Quigleys, Bar Louie, Charlie Cabanas and Jilly's in the last 30 days.
CIJ admits to also being Anonymous. Interesting contradiction in the posts.
what the? on July 24, 2009 11:05 AM
Congrats on the new purchase. But you know, even if the capital gains tax had been 20%-27%, you still would have taken that money out if you had needed it, and you still would have bought that washer and dryer if you had needed it too.
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Precisely correct, however I would have netted LESS money if I pay a higher tax. (Don't mean to use caps - kinda snarky), but my point is that I personally will have more $$$ if I pay 15% instead of 20%? No? On my mutual fund transaction described originally I will pay (next yrs taxes) ~$600 in capital gains (15% rate). I would have had to pay $800, or $1080 if the rate was 20 - 27% so while it's not enough to pay off my mortgage it is MY money and I'm glad to have the extra $200-400 thank you very much. (again with the caps)
I read your link, and rather than get in the battle of "links" there are others who write about the real increase government receives when tax rates are actually lowered. I'm not an economist, but there is pretty solid evidence that lowering capital gains taxes has increased revenue for the Government.
The reason those in the $1MM have benefited the most is because they pay the most. When the capital gains went from 20% to 15% on long term investments the rate reduction was the same for everyone. Someone who makes a lot more than me will have a greater dollar amount in savings, but the percentage is the same.
I see articles and comments indicating that some "rich person" will save 10K in taxes due to W's tax cuts. (these # are all for discussion and not real). The person making this case then will say something along the lines that the "poor sap in the middle class" will only save $1000 in taxes due to W's tax cuts. The comparison is then drawn that the richest 1% benefits with a 10K reduction while the middle class guy only benefits 1K.
The Headline then reads: "That rascally W gave his buddies a 10K tax break while I only got 1K" - or some derivation of this.
What doesn't seem to get reported is that the rich person originally paid 100K in taxes and now is going to pay "only" 90K (10K savings), while us middle class guys who pay 10K in taxes and will now only pay $9000 (1K savings). The story is then reported (can anyone say bias?) that the "Rich People get a 10K tax cut, but the middle class only got 1K".
I used my 5 "changes" to my job function simply as an example of the kinds of changes i have had recently, not in an effort to bash the big O, or blame him for my health care premium. Although if Bush was previously blamed for $4 gallon gas prices I suppose given the fact that O is the president I may as well blame him?? After all what's fair is fair?
Yes, Thomas, I got your point, the one you described in your first paragraph. My point was that the w/d purchase was not totally dependent on the capital gains tax being 15%; if the tax had been 20-27%, you wouldn't be schlumping your dirty duds down to the local laundromat. You still would have bought the w/d, you just would have paid $200-400 more for it. I'm not saying $200-400 is nothing, I'm just making the point that the better off one is financially, the less these percentages actually have an impact on consumer behavior. That's what I meant by "I think they (the very well-off) can handle a small increase just fine". It's not going to have that much of an impact on their bottom line.
Your case about those who make more paying more is what I was saying to Anon above. I see the same type of media manipulation you described all the time. In fact, I've seen a similar example for the last two days. Both Fox and CNN have had "experts" (I think it was Carl Rove on Hannity) saying that Obama's health plan wasn't what Americans wanted because "polls" had indicated that up to 82% of Americans reported they were happy with their current health care and didn't see the need for a gov. option. What they don't say was that the poll obviously only counted people who had health insurance to begin with. The "poll" didn't include those who didn't have health insurance, because you can't be content with something you don't have. And the government option is specifically for those people who don't have any, who can't get or can't afford health insurance through the private market. So I switch the channel whenever I hear a talking head say this. It's misleading BS; not news but manipulative commentary, just like the Bush tax cuts example you mentioned above.
I know your 5 "changes" weren't there to O bash; I didn't see it as such. But it is interesting your health insurance premiums are going up yet another 25%; has O done anything in his 6 month reign to contribute directly to this? If anything, he's identified your insurance premium increases as a problem he wants to combat. And yet you seem unfazed by it. That increase just ate up that mutual fund capital gains you were enjoying, doesn't that irk you at all?
What the ? You can mock my typing skills while I mock your president. The fact for you is the Rasmussen poll today indicates the inexperienced one looking presidential but of course now has a favorability rating of 49% vs. a disapproval rating of 51%. You wouldn't suppose the fact that he has done NOTHING good for this nation since January except sink us into the largest deficit in history has anything to do with it do you? How ironic it is that the blue dog democrats are going to moderate this guy.
By Anonymous on July 14, 2009 12:43 AM
BTW, we don't drink or allow our kids to drink. We don't smoke either and thankfully none of our kids smoke. So we have tried our best but have not always succeeded as you alleged to have in keeping losers away from our home and our kids.
By Citizen Investigative Journalist on July 24, 2009 7:43 AM
Former WV Mom and I have had a very good debate on this thread.
I enjoy a drink with other parents and have been to the Tilted Kilt, Quigleys, Bar Louie, Charlie Cabanas and Jilly's in the last 30 days.
CIJ admits to also being Anonymous. Interesting contradiction in the posts.
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No contradiction! I drink non-alcoholic beer, lots of coffee(about 10 cups a day) and sometimes diet coke at these places. Some of the adults drink and some don't. But none get drunk.
Before, I switched to non-alcohlic beer I averaged a beer a month....but never in the home. I think drinking in the presence of your kids while asking them not to drink is a fruitless exercise.
You have to practice what you preach.
Tilted Kilt, my favorite place, has some really awesome food for under 10 dollars. Blackfinn Saloon has has an awesome menu and atmosphere and I can't wait to check it out.
Not drinking beats getting a DUI and being able to drive. I need to drive....a lot. I never drank to get buzzed so I really don't miss drinking. Last night I had 2 White Teas and loved them.
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PS. I drive my kids and other kids to many activities. I would never drink and drive and endanger these kids. Never!
"There's no drunk like a reformed drunk." John William Clancy (1912-1996)
But...
In June CIJ/Sybil/whoever... wrote:
"And I managed to have a cold beer at the Tilted Kilt where a beer never looked so good."
Oh - Wait. You were just inhabiting a fictional character, this time, one who actually drinks beer, right?
Right.
Digging the credibility hole ever deeper, Sybil. Ever deeper.
Now you'll tell us it was a nonalcoholic beer. But it's ok, because... I was being a fictional character.
Oh, please.
Drinking non-alcoholic beer has grown much faster than alcholoic beer in the last 20 years. If a person drinks beer he or she could drink either kind and be drinking a cold beer.
Liquor and grocery stores now carry many varieties of non-alcholic beers. All the major brewers have their own non-alcoholic beer brands that they promote heavily as beers.
A big deal is really being made about nothing.
If you are drinking a diet pop with no calories or caffeine, you are still considered to be drinking a pop.
Same difference.
Another Saturday, 6:50 a.m. - my slumber is disturbed by the convoy of swim team parents driving past my house all honking furiously. What is wrong with these people?
Oh no, Glock!
It appears your Obama Derangement Syndrome is finally becoming delusional. An immediate intervention is needed to bring you back to reality!
First of all, I wasn't mocking your typing skills. I was mocking you.
Secondly, Barack Obama IS your president. As long as you're a U.S. citizen and he's the U.S. President, that makes him your president, like it or not. You can renounce your U.S. citizenship; that would get you off the hook. But that could also take all the fun out of your armed insurrection.
Thirdly, O has signed 11 pieces of legislation in the past 6 months in addition to your beloved ARRA, so let's see if any of those can be considered a good move for our One Nation under Glock:
Lily Ledbetter fair pay act, you know, the equal pay for equal work regardless of gender thing. But you're a guy, so that doesn't benefit YOU. Children's health insurance, nah, you don't care about other people's kids. Small business act, you don't own one. Helping families save their homes, we know from past blogs how into THAT you are. Volunteerism, no way, cuts into time on the firing range. Family smoking prevention, don't care about other people's families. Credit card disclosure, if they're stupid enough not to understand the fine print, that's their problem. Hey, here's one! The Weapons Systems Acquisition Reform Act! Awesome! Sounds right up your alley. Oh, wait, that isn't what I thought it was . . .
Well, bummer. Twelve acts of legislation and the only good it's doing is for women, children, families, small businesses and people interested in volunteering to make their country a better place. You're right, these things don't have anything to do with you. But fortunately, you're not the nation.
If you feel yourself slipping over the edge again, click here for a quick booster of reality orientation:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/
Otherwise, take two aspirin and blog me in the morning.
TO: what the? on July 24, 2009 1:31 PM
I have looked well beyond the blanket statements. You mention you are not an expert on the ins & outs of tax structure. Though not a pure “taxman”, I do have +25 years of working experience in the finance field, including the design & implementation of taxation strategies. I also perform research on these subjects, have testified in Senate subcommittees on them, had the opps to discuss personally the Laffer curve with Milton Friedman, presented variation strategies to both the SEC and the FASB, etc. I say this not to impress but to reinforce the thought that I am not coming at this subject from an anti-left view, but as one who has a decent grasp on the data.
I would heavily encourage you to look beyond the liberal hype, which is mostly what drives the comments we all read and hear on the Bush tax cuts and the Reagan tax cuts (Hey! Did you ever notice those same folks do NOT include the Kennedy tax cuts --- know why? He was not a Republican.)
I will try to address some of your issues in what I hope is a logical manner:
First, let’s be clear on individual taxes ---- we have a very progressive system in the United States right now. Contrary to popular hype, it has been made severely more progressive under Bush and his tax cuts that allegedly benefited only the rich.
As far as Buffet goes, I have researched Buffet’s dogma over well more than 8 years, and if you do the same you will come out a lot less impressed by him that you now may be. Given that most of his success came prior to SOX, and that he has harped for years about his poor secretary in Omaha, and his hypocritical stance on estate taxes [let us remember ---- he is giving basically all of his money to the Gates Foundation. So, all of our money is good enough to be taxed an umpteenth by the government, but his isn’t?], I would prefer to leave him out of our discussion.
To wit: Directly from the IRS Statistics of Income, the top 1% of earners paid 40% of all taxes. This is the highest rate of taxes paid by that group in over 40 years!
The top 1% earned about 22% of all reported income, but paid 40% of all taxes. The analysis of this is clear and requires no bending or spin: The top 1% pay taxes at a rate double that of their income and achieved this pinnacle under the Bush tax cuts.
The impulse, which has been beaten upon and created by true liberal hype, is that the highest income earners pay a smaller percentage of their income than lesser successful earners (note my specific use of words here). I will outright say that this is a scandalous lie used by those who benefit from a fragmented society that fights among itself (i.e. our politicians).
When addressing the issue of federal income taxes, the rich pay more, period. Take a simple look at any federal tax table ----- clear as a bell. Some try to refer to tax dodges, but those who understand the Bush cuts (and the Reagan ones earlier) are well aware that these series of cuts eliminated many, if not most, of the legal tax dodges that once existed and catered usually to the very rich.
So that leaves us with a question: Why do they say these things and how can they get away with it?
Again, a simple answer: Those who push this devisive dogma of rich vs middle class (note here that you cannot use the word “poor” as the poor pay no taxes in the U.S. ---- currently about 50% of all earners pay ZERO federal income taxes) bundle ALL taxes paid by an earner to come up to their conclusion, which is then based on a percentage! I will add once more that it is impossible to spend a percentage!
So, in affect they take the federal income taxes paid, the state taxes paid, the FICA and medicare taxes paid, the city taxes paid, the county taxes paid (in many analyses, I have even seen sales taxes paid!) and use this resulting percentage of taxes paid to argue for more FEDERAL income taxes on certain individuals deemed to be “rich”.
This is clearly an example of your earlier comments on fudging stats and rolling them to favor an argument. Using this dishonest calculation to defend an even more distorted federal tax code rewards deviant behavior at the state, county, and city levels of government and disguises the issue of our quickly deteriorating Social Security and Medicare systems.
As far as trickle down goes, it is well-established that the Laffer curve works well in practice but has issues for some in theory. The fact that over 2/3s of all new jobs over the last 39 years has come from small businesses, the fact that the rich, using any real data, pay more taxes in total and as a percentage of total taxes, the fact that federal revenues grow whenever there is a tax cut that includes the top brackets (and conversely go down whenever there is a tax increase to the top brackets), all serve to support this.
Finally, I will say that there are many more millionaires now than there were 30 years ago (even taking inflation into account). [Note that “millionaire” designates wealth, by the way, and not yearly earnings]. The reasons are varied, yet the liberal hype tries to convince us it is all from the evils of Bush tax policies.
Let me add a few alternatives:
>The U.S. economy has the most fluidity in the world. though I am liberally rounding numbers here, about 30% of the earners in each level (poor, middle class, rich) change levels every 3 ½ years. Our mobility is further proof of the idea that the U.S. offers Opportunities for all to succeed.
>People made a lot of money on real estate and home values over the past 15 years (note they have also lost a lot, and I suspect the next data dump will show this)
>The tech boom of the 90s put enormous amounts of cash in people’s pockets.
>The lessening of taxes on the poor and middle classes (yes, I believe I have well-established that above) has provided more opps for those earners to do more with their money
It is City Championship Day.
I think the 7-10 year olders are the ones honking their parent's horns. They have to compete in the early morning.
The 10-14 year olders start at 12:30 pm at Nequa Valley and they don't honk their horns quite as much. I specifically don't when I drive my children.
You should be glad you do not live near Nequa Valley High School where the City Championships are being held this year.
I have to do some volunteer work at the meet for 4 hours but I will be excused to watch my kids race when their turns come up. This swim meet is the most anti-social event in the history of mankind. So I guess your bloggers may be right when they say I am anti-social. I will be off after that for more anti-social activities in Myrtle Beach. ( I will try to send you one post from there as promised as I am sure you will know from my IP number that I am not in my home and/or place of work.)
But seriously, there is no excuse to ever honk a horn except to avoid an accident.
I will try to INVESTIGATE who passed by your home at 6:50am and woke you up. Consider that my assigned duty. Blast them on the front page of your newspaper and hopefully they will never do it again....lol...
Citizen Investigative Journalist, you can always bring Diana back to fill in for you while on vacation. She seemed to enjoy spending her vacations doing research and beating up establishment types.
To Anonymous on July 25, 2009 11:59 AM--
Fabulous post, Anon. Seriously, I welcome the information. It will take me awhile to go through all of this, but I will look into it. If i have questions as I go, I trust you'll be around on these blogs.
Thanks for taking the time!
By Anonymous on July 25, 2009 12:54 PM
Citizen Investigative Journalist, you can always bring Diana back to fill in for you while on vacation. She seemed to enjoy spending her vacations doing research and beating up establishment types.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Speaking of Diana she was one of the best fictional characters I created. She was a very tough woman and did let the establishment have it.
I am in the process of creating a new character that will give Diana a run for her money.
At least we know who my characters and I are. We know what we stand for. We all have the same principles.
Who are you, Anonymous? The Forensic Accountant known as Experienced who is ashamed to come out of the closet after failing in performing a simple math computation.....or the guys who makes so much NOISE that he is almost deaf right now.....or the guy who loves his Keyboard.
You seem like a wimp in hiding. What are you trying to hide?
Have you ever tried to blog about a topic in your life?
Are you capable?
If only you knew sybil, if only you knew...................
The problem with creating multiple fictional characters is that it creates significant doubt about the validity of anything that creator says
By Anonymous on July 25, 2009 9:15 PM
The problem with creating multiple fictional characters is that it creates significant doubt about the validity of anything that creator says
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Funny, almost everyone on this blog site is a fictional character including yourself.
Almost everyone on this blog site has used more than one handle and reincarnated themselves here and there.
Fictional characters do not create any doubt. What creates doubt is unreliable content. I have done my utmost to make sure my content is credible and reliable.
I also think it is very sad when a person has to discuss something that is a year old and has been rehashed over and over again.
Time to move forward. If you have a problem with my message, challenge it as Former WV Mom did. My handles are fictional and will always be fictional. I will continue to change my handles from time to time as I get bored with them rather easily. Sorry, but that is how I am.
Since my handle has nothing to do with my ego, I have no problem discarding it. Sometimes I change my handle to get peace for a few days so the focus can be on my message. It does work temporarily, but unfortunately because I have blogged for so long more than one person can figure out my writing style after a few posts.
If bloggers don't want me to change my handle, focus on my MESSAGE and I won't. The more you attack my handles the more I will change them. Your choice!
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PS. Enjoy your time blogging while I am in Mrytle Beach. I will be leaving tomorrow morning to watch the Hip Hop and Jazz National Championships that my daughter is participating in and try to be as anti-social as humanly possible. I won't be here to hijack any threads. I won't be here debating anyone. Have a lot of fun by AGREEING with each other day and night.
I will find a way to send one or two posts so that the Moderator can track I am in Myrtle Beach. It is unfortunate to think bloggers think I make everything up because I use fictional monikers as everyone else does...albeit a few more in the olden days.
If X-Treme Dance of Naperville wins the National Championship for the 3rd straight year, I promise to report back as a dutiful Citizen Journalist should. We should know by the end of the week.
I will also make sure no dancers beep their horns when they pass by your home, Moderator Chris.
To:By what the? on July 25, 2009 1:14 PM
No prob --- I enjoy your style.
Speaking of Diana she was one of the best fictional characters I created. She was a very tough woman and did let the establishment have it.
Pretty telling, as almost every statement posted by 'Diana's' was a lie or factually incorrect. Not surprising at all that Sybil thinks this was his/her/its best work...
I have a question for the moderator and the group in general.
The same software this site uses is also used by the Sun Times blog itself. The major difference is, on the Sun Times version, it requires the person posting to create a login - that is, register with a valid email address and choose a nickname to be able to post. The Sun Times site seems to draw a lot of comments, so it doesn't appear to be a bar to use.
Given how much time and energy we all seem to spend dealing with the concepts of multiple personalities, and who is who, why can't we turn on the same facility here, on this site. I've never registered here, simply because I don't have to, though I am happily registered on other blog sites, and some of the issues that we see here simply never come up.
Please note that I'm not specifically talking about our most high profile multiple personality, but that is what started me thinking along these lines, I'll admit.
So, what say all of you? Is this something that we should encourage the moderator to do? I, for one, would very much like to see this happen. It wouldn't change my posting habits at all, and would allow for a at least a bit more accountability, while also allowing for some level of anonymity...
GJC
As far as I know, I can't set it up that way, but it's always possible it's there and I just never noticed.
Please, lets do it.... I would like to move on.
Thank you GJC for noticing that the Sun-Times web/blog site has this option.
I would fully support the log in concept - though my guess is that anyone who is willing to spend the time to create dozens (or more) personae are probably more than likely to create any number of email addresses to support them. As it is quite easy (and free) to create any number of yahoo or g-mail or AOL addresses, it would be interesting to see how this goes. The hard part is to re-invent the oh so distinctive writing styles that some have.
There is a way around multiple yahoo/etc accounts. Require that legitimate email accounts from ISP's will be the only type accepted; IE- Comcast, AT&T, Etc.
I belong to a couple of forums that are set up this way and it virtually eliminates mults and spammers. If someone were still, insistent on using multiple names, the ISP's usually limit how many email accounts per customer, and if all else fails, Chris could still check the ISP # of a suspected mult and eliminate all but one user name.
I was watching the movie "Caddyshack" on my portable DVD in my "wigwam" the other night, and made an observation...Ted Knight played the judge in the movie and was a real tool...odd thing is, he looked and acted just like Dick Furstenau....odd
Anyway I am blogging from the Sheraton Hotel in Myrtle Beach where X-Treme Dance of Naperville is competing for a National Title in both Jazz and Hip Hop.
This battle for the championship started on Friday. Tuesday at 10am are the finals. They will be nationally broadcast live on Starpowertalent.com on the Web.
There are over 50 dancers from Naperville here and hundreds of family members to root them on. The auditorium is beautiful and massive with great visibility from all seats.
While I am no expert in the field of dancing and of course biased, I am willing to bet X-Treme Dance from Naperville grabs their 3rd National Title.
At least for those who may be interested in watching, it will be broadcast live. At least that is what my sources tell me which I believe are reliable.
The judges have reviewed over 700 dance routines so far to arrive at the few who qualify for the finals. I believe the dance routine that X-treme Dance thinks will win the championship for them is BXS which stands for Brittany Xtreme Spears.
I hope some of you get a chance to watch it. The talent of all the teams from across the country is really phenomenal. I have yet to see a single screw up or flaw in the 100 dance routines I personally watched. Only the teams that made it through regional finals made it here to Myrtle Beach.
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PS. I am sending this post from Myrtle Beach since so many bloggers doubted I had a daughter that danced or that she would be competing with her team for a 3rd consecutive National Championship. And to refute claims that I am anti-social because I blog one hour a day. I missed the first half of my daughter's teams competition because I had to attend the Naperville City Championship for swimming for another child in which I was a volunteer. Yes, I do volunteer for events other than Tax Protests.
Blogging an hour a day instead of watching a boring 3 hours baseball game does not make you an outcast or anti-social. I even found some time to fight the waves in the Atlantic Ocean. They were ferocious today. They tossed me around like a Rag Doll and I finally came out with a mildly bleeding forehead after a combination of waves threw me on the bottom of the ocean where I think my forehead hit a rock, stone or big seashell. Anyway, it is so much fun to be anti-social and anti-active.
I hope everyone is having as good a time as I am in Myrtle Beach while being social and active.
Again the Web Site where it will be telecast live from is StarPowerTalent.com
Im sorry, but I dont care about the dance contest ect, if he/she/it wants to create their own website or own newspaper then great, but why do we need 1am updates from the biggest liar who is obsessed with this blog. Maybe everyone should start updating their status like on facebook or twitter. PS, if I was on vacation I sure as heck would not be on the Naperville Sun blogging, no offense...
By Anonymous on July 28, 2009 8:19 AM
Im sorry, but I dont care about the dance contest ect, if he/she/it wants to....... PS, if I was on vacation I sure as heck would not be on the Naperville Sun blogging, no offense.
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If a Dance Team from Naperville is competing for a National Championship, it is as worthy of news coverage as a football team from Naperville competing for the State Title....if not more.
Dancers practice, believe it or not, harder than football players. They practice 5-10 hours a day for months to nail a routine to perfection. Sometimes up to 50 dancers have to perform the exact same moves in perfect syn for 5-10 minutes straight.
Just like football players, a few dancers make it to the pros and become future stars.
It seems like you are a self-centered person who can not see beyond your eyelashes.
You call others liars, while you are the liar with proof to prove it. If you want to call others liars, show some courage by at least using a handle that can identify you instead of being a wimp in hiding.
All you have to do is go to the Web Site Broadcast and watch the competition live. Many Napervillians, I am sure are proud of their sons and daughters who compete at a national level. Hundreds of Napervillians jumped on planes to support their sons, daughters, relatives and friends.
It seems to me you are a failure in life and with extremely low self esteem who is jealous of those who are more successful than you. Psychiatrists were created to deal with your sick type....to help you heal.
And since this is an Open Topic Thread, I can not think of anything wrong with promoting a Naperville Dance Team competing for a National Championship in Myrtle Beach, S. C.
I don't care much about the dance contest either but it is of import to some in town - no reason why it should not be mentioned here on an open topic thread.
HOWEVER - I do not see why Anonymous on July 28, 2009 2:28 PM - who I believe to be the person who identifies them selves as CIJ or BHO or Diane or any number of other identities - should call Anonymous on July 28, 2009 8:19 AM "a failure in life and with extremely low self esteem who is jealous of those who are more successful than you". That was simply uncalled for.
Moderator Chris,
Just wanted to report to you that Extreme Dance of Naperville won the National Championship in Myrtle Beach once again for the 3rd consecutive year less than an hour ago.
Their Hip Hop song BXS(Brittany Xtreme Spears) beat out 700 other dance rountines including hip hop, jazz, ballet and whatever else for the top performance. It was 5 days of intense competition with the 12 finalists performing their dance routines the last day.
They not only won the Judges decisions, but they also got the most votes on the World Wide Web from the live broadcast out of the 700 dance routines. The competition was watched in many countries world wide especially in Europe where so many votes came from.
About 45 mostly Naperville teenagers performed in this BXS dance hip hop routine. They practiced for months 5-10 hours a day including weekends. I know that besides practicing they even had to jog 3 miles each day to have the stamina to perform such a lovely, intense and well coordinated dance that was about 10 mintues long.
Hundreds of Napervillians were there to cheer them on and exploded in pandemonium upon the annoucement they won the World Victory Trophy.
As a Citizen Journalist, I thought it was a newsworthy event to report to the local newspaper with a very small staff due to a budgetary crisis. If you feel it is a worthy news story to pass on to the news staff at the Sun, please feel free to notify them. Soon the Gold Trophy will be on display at Extreme Dance Studios in Naperville on Ogden Ave and I am sure the Naperville Sun could take a picture of it if it so chooses.
Anyway, I am very proud of the competitive spirit of the teenagers in this town. They really amaze me. It is really nice to hear about the great things our teenagers do instead of the occassional aberration of misbehavior here and there. As a parent, I am very proud of not only my daughter but all the boys and girls who gave it their all to win this very competitive National Championship.
Congratulations to all of them for a superb effort. It makes one proud to be a Napervillian.
They should send us a press release with the pertinent information.
Citizen Investigative Journalist on July 28, 2009 6:28 PM
It is really nice to hear about the great things our teenagers do instead of the occassional aberration of misbehavior here and there.
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By Anonymous on July 20, 2009 6:09 PM
Mine and most kids in Naperville appeared to have come out of wombs.
No matter what most parents do and how well they raise their kids, in my opinion they experience REBELLION. It is a normal part of life. It is how kids eventually earn their freedom into adulthood. It is a ritual all teenagers and parents have to go through. We just have to keep tabs on this ritual so it does not have to get out of control as apparently occured with one of my children.
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Hmmmmmmm?
MHB/CIJ wrote:
I gave 10 examples of people cussing from 1 thread when I was challenged by John Q. Public.
Yes, you did. Unfortunately for you, though, my challenge to you was to list Napergatians, not just any blogger who happened to have a beef with the police.
BTW, MHB, congratulations on your daughter's dance team winning the national title. You must be very proud of her---and rightly so.
-JQP
John Q. Public,
Thank you very much!
Stumbled on this Blog..how sad that one has to run to a computer while away at a dance competition to blog about the winners. didn't you have any friends or family to call..sad that you just have your computer friends.......I'm home sick, otherwise i wouldn't be wasting my time ..
By Allie on August 3, 2009 8:02 PM
Stumbled on this Blog..how sad that one has to run to a computer while away at a dance competition to blog about the winners. didn't you have any friends or family to call..sad that you just have your computer friends.......I'm home sick, otherwise i wouldn't be wasting my time ..
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Really!
Between our rooms at the Sheraton Hotel and the Dance Auditorium in the same hotel is a lobby full of computers.
If I am proud of the accomplishments of 50 dancers from Naperville who just won a National Championship and want to get them some recognition in the local newspaper, I suddenly only have computer friends. Your comment is very funny if not borderline insane. I was not blogging to tell computer friends. I was blogging to tip the Naperville Sun to a story I thought deserved some coverage. The former Moderator and Host asked us to be Citizen Journalists and I was doing exactly that.
I think I blogged two times while on a one week vaction. That took about 10 minutes. I don't have any regrets. The only regret I have is that the Naperville Sun chose not to look into the story or publish anything about it.
These kids have no interest in personal recognition. The owners of the studio and instructors have no interest in personal recognition. Their only interest was in competing and winning. However, I personally felt they deserved some team recognition and tried to give them some. I thought I was being very unselfish to take 10 minutes out of my vacation time to tip the Sun about this story that involves Napervillians. I thought the residents would be proud to know that a local Dance Studio won a National Championship after 5 days of competition and 700 dance performances. Yes, they won the top prize in all categories. They earned the World Victory Trophy which I believe is now in their Naperville Studio.
Basically, you feel blogging is wasting your time and you would not be doing so if you were not homesick. That is OK by me.
I feel blogging is very educational and enlightening. It helps you grow, learn from others and mature further. In some cases you can bring change through blogging. You can invite people to a tax protest and some actually show up.
Others would rather watch 3 hour baseball games each day. What long term value does that really have? Can anyone remember any regular season game of the Cubs or White Sox that took place on August 3, 1999? Can anyone even tell me who they played and what the score was? Of course not. That is my point. Watching baseball is a waste of time except for some instant emotional gratification you may get when the game is over if your team wins. I would rather blog.
As far as relatives and friends, we called some who could not make the trip and gave them the good news. Many relatives and friends were also there to watch the competition and cheer on the team.
And all the parents had a huge party for the kids at the Breaker Hotel right on the beach after they won their National Championship. When you are involved in such activities you become very close friends with other parents since you have similar interests.
I have a very good life. I am surprised so many bloggers are worried about my personal life because I enjoy blogging. I think people need to get a life of their own and stop worrying about other peoples' lives.
One reason I blogged twice while on vacation is because some bloggers thought I was fabricating the fact that I had a daughter who was a dancer and competing for a national championship. I promised these suspecting bloggers that I would send a post from South Carolina and I did exactly that hoping it would have a unique address that the moderator could trace to Myrtle Beach.
End of story. Let us not maker is bigger than it is.
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PS. It is very sad that you are home sick and you have no visitors checking on you. All you can do is blog. How so sad that no one cares to visit you while you are sick. Where are your friends? Where is your family in your hour of sickness and need? I am so very sorry for you.
This is in response to MHB's August 3 6:43 PM post on the What sort of behavior drives you nuts topic.
MHB,
Your daughter is giving you a B.S. excuse for her marijuana use, and you seem to be buying into if to the point of looking for ways for her to obtain it legally in other states, even though it remains illegal in Illinois. That is not exactly zero tolerance, no matter what you say. There are reportedly specific conditions, such as glaucoma and some kinds of cancer, for which cannabis seems to be an effective drug. I'm pretty certain, though, that the kind of pain your daughter is experiencing is not usually treated with a marijuana prescription, at least not by a responsible doctor, and ought to be treatable with standard pain relievers, whether prescription or over-the-counter. Of course, I am not an orthopedist or any other kind of physician, but I doubt your daughter is either, and maybe she should go consult an actual M.D. rather than embarking on a program of self-medication with illegal substances. If marijuana truly is the only thing that brings relief from her pain, then the prudent course of action for both you and your daughter is for her to cease the activity that causes that pain.
BTW, again, marijuana still is illegal in Illinois, even for medicinal purposes, so if Edwards is prescribing it to some patients, they are doing so in violation of the law. Moreover, I'm pretty sure you and/or your daughter will be in violation of Federal law if you transport marijuana from a state that has a medicinal marijuana law to any other state. I also doubt that if your daughter is caught in possession of marijuana that the NPD is going to let her off the hook because she has an invalid (in Illinois) prescription from an out-of-state doctor. For that matter, if the NPD has reason to suspect you have marijuana in your house, you could be held liable for it. I don't think I need to remind you that the "my daughter did it" excuse did not work for the Napergate Man.
-JQP
John Q. Public,
I checked with my sources at Edward's Hospital and they do prescribe marijuana to certain patients. The marijuana at the pharmacy in the hospital is under the prescription name "Merimol." It is legal and it works according to my sources to help with pain. According to my sources Ibuprofen does not work with all patients and some of the stronger pain killers can be addicting. Thus "Merimol" appears to be a new option that is not addicting.
I do not think Edward's Hospital would ever do anything illegal. I once met CEO Pamela Davis in her office and she seemed as straight as an arrow. Not the kind of person that would engage in anything illegal or cover up something.
I also heard from sources on the South Side of Naperville that the suicide victim of July 24 had attended Nequaa Valley High School. Apparently an e-mail is circulating to parents of kids in that school....I think by the school but I am not 100% sure as my cell phone connection was very bad. I think if we had more bloggers on this site, news could be confirmed more easily.
I guess if all else fails, doctors in Illinois are allowed to prescribe marijuana under the prescription name "Merimol." Like I said I am against anything illegal....especially drugs. But if marijuana can be obtained legally through a doctor's prescription as my sources tell me, and it is the only thing that works, then why would I be against it.
If you have to take large dozes of Ibuprofen over long periods of time my understanding is your liver and kidney will be severely impacted. So why not take "Merimol" and be safe.
If you have a rebellious kid, you have to let her have something. If you are too strict as I tend to be, there are sometimes serious consequences. My kid is showing good signs that the rebellion is almost over and maturity is finaly setting in. This is really a very good feeling for any parent as you feel your kids is out of harm's way. Maybe this "legal marijuana" she is demanding is the olive branch that will bring a full understanding between us. In some ways it is a compromise. She gets her marijuana without breaking the law. We are both happy. I don't see why you have a problem, Mr. John Q. Public.
If the police arrest me for buying marijuana legally, I will sue them just as the Napergate Man sued them. And I will win just as the Napergate Man won. Knowing the NPD, I would not be surprised if they did arrest me. After all, they arrested the Napergate Man for running a perfectly legal sting operation and cost the taxpayers 10 million dollars. Let us hope they are wiser and not dumber after they made that 10 million dollar mistake.