I am currently a student in District 203's Naperville North High School. Our school has its flaws, like all schools, but a huge one is the lack of class rank. Like they say, competition is healthy. If one does not compete and do their best, how can one improve? I shudder to think that one day, the people of the world will be accepting of "just ok" and not strive to do their best.

One thing for sure is that class rank is what motivates some people. It was best stated by NNHS-82, "I just don't see why you would take away a clear cut measure of achievement like this for the sole purpose of making the lower performers more at ease with their academic standings."

This is what we should all fear. Allowing lower performers more at ease with their academic standings. We should instead be motivating them to do better, to take challenging courses, etc. instead of letting them feel like they've done "all right" and it's "good enough".

As a current student, I take weighted classes (Honors, Enriched, AP, etc.) because of two reasons: it challenges me and pushes me to my extremes, and it boosts my GPA. For example, my freshman year, I only took 3 weighted classes. In those weighted classes, I felt surrounded with intelligence, and felt that I was really being challenged. However, in my non-weighted classes, I felt bored, and that everything was made easier (or taught to the "lowest common denominator", so to speak). However, I am now taking 5 weighted classes, and feel that this will be the push I need. I have most definitely learned an important lesson from my freshman year, and that is that non-weighted classes do not provide me with a challenge.

So, in conclusion, I implore District 204 NOT to get rid of class rank, and NOT to make the same mistake District 203 did. I'm happy that District 203 still has the top 10 program (the top 10 GPA's of the graduating class are announced and receive awards in front of the school), and the valedictorian/salutatorian titles. If we get rid of class rank, what next? Getting rid of top 10 or someone being named the valedictorian/salutatorian? It's very dissapointing that they are going in this step backwards, by getting rid of class rank.

Judging from the four neighbor hoodlums on either side of me, I think 204 has already gotten rid of class ranking and grades. These brats never seem to study; they're outside for hours on school days wrecking property of others. Does 204 give ANY homework these days? Is there such a concept any more that failure will lead a child to repeat a school year or do the teachers just pass the non-learners through.

As to the question, yes , class rank should be kept. It is a competitive tool and measuring device for those children and parents who actually care about learning, being the best, etc.

By Anonymous on July 23, 2009 2:35 PM

Then the question must become, why is class rank a measure of excellance the way it is presently determined. As pointed out by others, class rank (and GPA) are weighted according to those attributes that society seems to honor as opposed to other studies. If an excellent plumber is to be honored before a shoddy philosopher, then all classes should count the same. A "B" in an honors course should not be worth the same as an "A" in auto mechanics, or art, or business, or technology. Maybe the question should change to whether grade weighting should be elimiated in deference to Gardner's argument.

When I was in high school, decades ago, all classes were considered the same weight except PE. The person who was ranked as number 3 by a few hundreths of a point was what one would call a "technology" student today (heavy into home ec, sewing, cooking) and otherwise she took general education classes. The person who was number 4 took honors courses in Math, English, Sciences, and Foreign Language. Education at that time valued all the courses the same.

There is a great book by John Gardner called Excellence: Can We Be Equal and Excellent Too? It talks about the cultural tension in this country between having the freedom to enjoy the fruits of your labor, and "all men are created equal."

Here's a sample:
"We must learn to honor excellence in every socially accepted human activity, however humble the activity, and to scorn shoddiness, however exalted the activity. An excellent plumber is infinitely more admirable than an incompetent philosopher. The society that scorns excellence in plumbing because plumbing is a humble activity and tolerates shoddiness in philosophy because it is an exalted activity will have neither good plumbing nor good philosophy. Neither its pipes nor its theories will hold water."

The AP World History vs. Auto Mechanics is a tough comparison. I know there are some kids in auto mechanics who stay after school to do additional work, including work on teachers' cars. (Don't worry, the teachers pay for the cost of any materials used.) And I have to admit, my son is very smart when it comes to AP World History, but has trouble figuring out how to do things with the car. His mind just doesn't work that way. He can get it eventually, it is definitely tough for him.

AP social studies classes vs. non AP SS: there is a difference in the difficulty of the work as well as the workload itself. Having had one kid take all AP in that area, and the other who took some AP and some nonAP, we did see a noticeable difference.

In this day and age, with the article about job prospects for current graduates, the kids might be better off going into auto mechanics. As long as people have cars, they'll need mechanics! Plumbing, electrical, and HVAC might be good too, as long as the company they work for doesn't put too much business into the new construction areas.

NNHS-82, I agree with you.

One thing no one has mentioned yet is the way weighted grades have distorted class ranking. Is an A in AP World History really worth more than an A in auto mechanics? At one time AP classes may have actually been more difficult than regular ones, but now they are just another poker chip in the college admission game.

Students should take AP and Honors classes because they want the challenge and it will help them in college. We shouldn't have to reward them in HS, too.

Maestra -

You state that class rank should be eliminated because it causes stress and isn't an automatic entry ticket into one's chosen university. Would you also try to do away with team captains for the school's football, soccer, basketball teams as well? Being captain of the team doesn't provide the athlete with an automatic ticket to play for their favorite college team and it definitely causes stress amongst the students as to who is going to get the honor. What about class president? What about homecoming king and queen? All of these things are honors that schools bestow that single out the "best" at something. Why should the smartest kids not be honored as well? We're not talking about a predictive score here - we're talking about an honor for the work that they actually did perform!

Let the colleges determine the predictive use of this honor just as they would use the kid's ACT/SAT scores, activities, etc. The colleges are in a much better position to assess the relevance of this score than the high schools or worse yet, the parents of high school students. I just don't see why you would take away a clear cut measure of achievement like this for the sole purpose of making the lower performers more at ease with their academic standings.

I don't feel that getting rid of class rank is going to dumb down things. There will still be GPAs. The high schoolers who compete for class rank will still be aiming for the big GPA. And you know they will still be comparing things on their own amongst each other. There will always be some sort of competition in that area. I really do feel it is about leveling the playing field among different schools as opposed to within an individual school.

As far as parking
Every high school I have ever known has been charging students for parking passes for as long as I remember. (West Aurora was back in the 70s and 80s.) From websites, it looks like Central charges $50/ semester, North charges $100/year, Neuqua and Waubonsie both charge $150/year. I think there are a few reasons why they do things this way.

Parking passes are usually distributed to seniors and students in work/study programs first on a first come first served basis, then if any are left after a specific date, they are offered to the juniors. There are usually a limited number of spots, nowhere near enough for the number of students who want to drive. Parking passes control the number of cars able to park in the lot. Otherwise you would have all 700 seniors trying to drive to school and park in a lot that can't hold 700 cars. Add in the juniors and sophomores who drive too, and it's going to be a real mess. Neighbors of the schools deal with a handful of kids who park on their streets already, Imagine adding all the ones that were sure they could get a spot but weren't successful. Or imagine all the kids getting up and going super early to get a spot. You'd have a bunch of teens hanging out in the lot a couple of hours before school unsupervised (Or you would end up paying someone to come and supervise the lot earlier in the morning.). Probably not an ideal situation. With the passes, the students that have them know there is a spot for their car.

Being able to drive your own car and park at school is not considered a right, but a privilege. Other transportation is available for the students (busing) so driving is not a necessity.

The parking passes usually include information such as license plates number as well as make and model of the car. If something were to occur in the parking lot, or if a car is blocking something, the school can contact the owner of the car involved. Or with surveillance video possibly identify a car that damaged another one in the lot.

There is some oversight that goes along with the system. The dean's assistants at the school do monitor the lot and check passes periodically. One of them will usually do this during the first class period, while students are in class. They monitor activity in the lot periodically anyway, and checking the passes coincides with that.

If we are going to use the argument of gouging the taxpayers, then we should also get rid of student fees. That could also be considered gouging the taxpayers.

Things have been this way for a long time and I doubt they will change. I totally understand the need for parking passes for the students. But the cost probably has gotten out of line. I actually think they keep it high so the kids think twice about wanting to drive to school.

Class rankings have long out-lived their purpose and only serve to create an atmosphere of pressure and competition among students and parents with no lasting results. I have been a high school teacher for over 25 years in 4 different states and have seen more than my share of grief when students lost their "coveted" class ranking. I have also found that the top students did not necesarily become the most successful adults later in life. As for thinking that a higher class ranking is an automatic entry ticket into one's chosen university, think again.

By Anonymous on July 19, 2009 12:14 PM
Yes, and after we eliminate class rank at D204, lets look at eliminating the Parking Fee that is charged by Neuqua. Why should parking at the h.s. cost 150 dollars while attendance for the whole year at school costs 130. The economy is so bad now I think the elimination of the parking fee is called for. It is ridiculous! Didnt we already pay for that parking lot??? Also, what right does the Park district have to charge Neuqua students to park there, during the day, by the skate park? No one else is using the park district parking lot at that time. Didnt we already pay for that too??? I know we need to control every last movement of the students, but this has crossed the line. I wish the board members would look at this issue too.
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Number one, I would like to address the idea of elimination of class ranking. To me, it is nothing more than going the PC route and dummying down to the lowest common denominator. Why shouldn't the students who work hard be recognized for their efforts? Some students aren't into sports or arts or clubs; academics is their focus. What is the incentive to strive to do your very best? Why shouldn't colleges know just what type of student they are getting? Isn't that just a glimpse of reality?

Secondly, do all the high schools charge their students a fee to use a parking spot on the school grounds? Isn't this space already paid for in the first place with our tax dollars? If I had a high school student at Neuqua, I would be incensed at a fee of $150 for a parking spot! And does the school then employ someone (also at our expense) to monitor the parking lot to be sure everyone who parks there has a sticker or something showing they paid the fee? To me, that's gouging the taxpayers from every possible angle.

Do the people out there that want to do away with class rank in HS also want to get away from it in college? Just because someone works their tail off in college doesn't mean that they will be best employee. I think the next target should be to do away with any ranking on the college front.

Now, once we get away from ranking HS and college kids, we need to get companies to stop ranking employees. There are actually companies out there that rank their employees and send the best on president club trips, give them other perks, or in sports they send them to all star games. How can this happen?

I think former WM mom had it right - HS kids/college kids/employees that are on the top of the ranking don't have the same viewpoint on this issue as the people in the middle. As a country, we are now completely catering to the middle of the curve and taking away any honor/prestige/award of excelling. IMHO we are on the fast track to a completely mediocre society.

As LMM said, "it's hard for me to be convinced that class rank alone has that much of an affect on student admittance."

So do away with them.

My guess is that the top ranked kids are not impacted by the issue of class rank and college admissions in quite the same way that the good students in the middle are.

I also think for the schools that do a comprehensive examination of students and their credentials, including essays, recommendations, etc., schools who look at the student as a whole, the issue may not be a huge deal. Those schools seem to have the concept of class rank in relationship to high performing schools.

However there are some schools that only look at GPA, test scores, and class rank. While they might not be the top ranked schools, they may have specific programs suitable for many kids. In those cases, they may not look at the class rank in relationship to the difficulty of the school. So many of the kids in the middle who might apply to these schools may suffer.

Glad to hear that the second choice school has been such a great fit. More students need to learn that it is not the end of the world if they don't get into or can't afford the first choice. It might end up being for the best!

I'd like to hear more about instances like Thomas's Texas/60 Minutes episode. So far there's been a lot of speculation from both sides, but not very much data. What do colleges say about how much weight they put into class rank when making decisions? Can any rejection from/acceptance to a college really be blamed on class rank alone? How can you be sure it wasn't a cocktail of other factors?

Colleges take many dimensions of achievement into consieration when admitting students. Along with class rank (which I'm led to believe is a rather minor factor), students submit their GPAs, aptitude test scores, extracurricular activity involvement, personal and directed essays, and letters of recommendation. Though there may be a few excpetions, it's hard for me to be convinced that class rank alone has that much of an affect on student admittance.

Like Meghan, I graduated high school in 2006, but unlike Meghan, I WAS one of those kids who strove to be at the top of my class. I graduated in the top 3%, had a GPA well above 4.0, and was a National Merit Scholar. I was then waitlisted from Northwestern and wound up attending my second-choice school. I've had a wonderful, successful college experience and I truly believe I wound up at the right school, but this is only to say... there are a lot of factors out there. I really don't think either keeping or eliminating class rank will make much of a difference at all.

Yes, and after we eliminate class rank at D204, lets look at eliminating the Parking Fee that is charged by Neuqua. Why should parking at the h.s. cost 150 dollars while attendance for the whole year at school costs 130. The economy is so bad now I think the elimination of the parking fee is called for. It is ridiculous! Didnt we already pay for that parking lot??? Also, what right does the Park district have to charge Neuqua students to park there, during the day, by the skate park? No one else is using the park district parking lot at that time. Didnt we already pay for that too??? I know we need to control every last movement of the students, but this has crossed the line. I wish the board members would look at this issue too.

... for adding nothing to the discussion.

Keep class ranking and do away with the overpaid administrators !

Most elite schools and large schools have eliminated class rank. So why will D204 re-invent the wheel. Hell, 4 years is enough deliberation. Eliminate it and move on to better fiscal planning. You need that now, not wasted meetings arguing points made thousands of times before in districts all over the country.

More and more schools are eliminating class rank for the precise reasons that 204 is considering it. Their students are still successful in getting into college. Students will still be competitive as far as GPA and test scores anyway. Students who are concerned about class rank are also concerned about getting a high GPA. Taking honors and AP classes does contribute to that since the grade are weighted. I do support the district in this decision. It has nothing to do with the "feel good" mentality that others on this board have stated. It just encourages schools to look at students in a more complete manner than mere numerical date. It makes comparisons a little more accurate than class rank which can be skewed so much by the size of the school itself.

Meghan...
As a former teacher, I say "way to go." I have always believed that high school performance does not always equate with success in college. I have known kids who did ok in high school that then went on to do fantastically in college. I have known students who were highly ranked in their high schools who went on to struggle their way through college. College and its environment is a different entity than high school. All of a sudden you are on your own, having to manage your time on your own, with no teachers or parents reminding you to do homework, etc. In addition, the schedule allows for a lot of flexible time that you are responsible for filling. The work you are assigned may be less overall (no busywork like many high school homework assignments) yet more meaningful in the long run. Some students will thrive in the new environment, while others miss the structure of high school. In college you are able to major in something that you have an interest in and feel more invested in. That can also impact your performance. At least if you have parents who allow you entire control over those choices in your life. My college roommate had been valedictorian of her high school class, had an IQ of 195, was a member of MENSA, yet still failed out after her freshman year. Her parents wanted her to go into medicine since her IQ was so high. She wanted to major in music composition. (She could play 3 different instruments, and play any piece perfectly merely by hearing it a few times.) She went on to graduate from a different college with that degree. She now writes music for high school and middle school bands.
I wish you continued success!

I was a Neuqua grad in 2006. I was an OK student and graduated with a GPA over a 3 and had OK ACT scores which put me in the lower half of my large graduating class. I was in AP classes but I wasn't apart of the whole "GPA race" like many were. Despite all that I got into every school I applied for including schools like Iowa, Indiana, and Michigan.

But what I've come to find is half the kids who tried so hard in high school to get the rank become lost when they get to college and they are no longer the big fish in the pond. Competing against more and more students made it harder for them to achieve the "highest ranked" goal they had in high school. These kids are more likely to burn out early in college or be the ones that party heavier because they never got the change in high school. Is this the case for all of them? No, but college is a different world than high school and some just aren't prepared for the new found freedom they never had before.

Now in college I have an A in my major, I'm well respected amongst my peers and professors, and the president of my school's chapter of a national club, and I've had amazing internship opportunities. So coming from one of those "bottom half" kids in high school its not the end of the world if your class rank isn't perfect. People who want to do well will always do well and not everyone is a winner, but class rank just created a bit more unnecessary stress for kids who needed the least. Schools will still see your GPA and test scores so those who tried and those who didn't will still get into the schools they deserve. Getting rid of class rank will make it a bit less stressful so kids can get up and at least enjoy a bit more of their high school years.

I remember a 60 minutes story a few years ago about class rank in Texas. Evidently the Univ. of Texas guaranteed admission to high school students who were in the top 10% (can't remember the exact %) of their class. One enterprising student transferred from a very competitive (academically) school to one that was much lower in rank. She was easily in the top 5% of this "lesser" school and gained admittance to the U of T.

If class rank was so important to colleges why do they have students give interviews, and write essays? They apparently know there is more to a student than just the GPA and ranking. Getting into college is one goal, but STAYING (not flunking out) is what colleges also try to determine. Being the #1 student at a school of 500 is very different than #1 around here so there are many factors to consider. If eliminating GPA and class ranking helps our students focus on academics rather than rankings I'm all for it. I also wonder if the rankings are more important to the parents or the student?

I think that class rank should be done away with. Unless you are at the very top of your class, Im not so sure it will help you. People are so competitive these days they will do anything to get the most points and build elaborate schemes to look like the best. Sometimes I think it is the most competitive moms that have the kids in the AP honors classes and the moms should be getting the credit. You can get a child into a top school by all the maneuvering during high school, but in the end, they have to perform and think for themselves when they get to college.

Pointless front page story.

I think we should just get rid of grades. The kids should all get smiley faces on their reports cards. Maybe each year the parents can all contribute money so each kid will get a participation trophy that will be bigger than any trophy the kid will ever earn through real competition!

Keyboard Rambo and Anon 12:33

Did you read the article?

The reason for eliminating class rank has nothing to do with making kids feel good, eliminating competition, or moving us toward communism (Huh?????).

It is about recognizing that being #150 out of 1200 graduates at a school like NV or WV (or central or north) is much different than being #149 out of 500 at a smaller school, or being #149 out of 1200 at a school with much lower achievement overall.

The #150 kid in Naperville could find themselves at a disadvantage relative to the other two despite the fact that they might be superior students.

Brothers and Sisters we are all equal, share and share alike. All borders and differences between people must be erased, these are the tools the capitalists use to hold us down.

If the problem of taking easy courses to boost rank is real, then why not weight AP classes with a higher value than basket weaving?

Yes this would be socially demeaning and diminish the value and self esteem of people by promoting a class society where the privileged few exploit the common workers for their conspicuous lifestyles. Only by remaking the mind of America can we archive true social justice and equality. The remake must start with the children: all social, class, income, educational and religious differences must be erased. Socialism is the inevitable outcome of the failure of Capitalism

A speech you could hear from Pol Pot or half of the professors (including former professors residing in DC) at any college campus. Unfortunately the disease has spread into the public school systems.

IMSA is the No. 1 high school in the country. It has neither GPA or class rank. The kids excel to excel.

Anyone else worried about this change in how we're treating our children and removing almost everything that has anything to do with competition amongst other people from their lives? It started with this whole "Everyone is a winner and everyone gets a trophy as long as you try!" junk that infected our schools, and now they're doing away with class rank? I don't know, it seems like we're raising an entire generation of kids who have no drive to achieve anything because they know all they have to do is just slightly more than it takes to fail.

I could rant for ages on this, but this clip from 60 Minutes does a good enough job: http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4126233n

I highly recommend watching it.

The reason for education is to get one. The only reason for a class rank is that a college might want one for its admission process. It has nothing to do with what one has learned and what one hasn't learned. The goal of education should be to learn all that you can.

One of my kids went to IPSD 204 where they had GPA and Class Rank and had no problem getting into a top notch college. My other kid went to a high school that not only did not have Class Rank but did not have a GPA and still had no problem getting into a top notch college.