The Exchange Club or the Naperville Taxpayers?

Last year the Naperville Taxpayer paid 100k from the cultural fund sales tax to the Exchange Club who in turn used it to pay for police OT.

Does anyone know if we had a REPEAT this year?

Let us fight higher real estate tax bills by not allowing our City to abuse our tax contributions to its coffers.

NoParkingFest! CrowdFest! RibFest! No thanks. Naperville's City Council and its "city planners" (and I use that term very loosely) have proven over the years that they aren't happy unless they issue enough building permits to completely replace every last bit of valuable open space with tax-generating concrete. As a result, there's no adequate open space left within the city limits for events like Rib Fest, not to mention the lack of parking. In a city that goes from College Avenue on the east to west of Rte. 59 on the west, and Warrenville Rd. on the north to the border of Plainfield on the south, there's also no mass transit system to get the throngs of people from all those areas to miniscule Knoch Park, where the gates get closed once the limited space fills up. Famous Dave's Ribs won one of the trophies this year. If I want to enjoy those award-winning ribs, I can easily drive to their Ogden Avenue Naperville location where there's plenty of free parking and where I don't have to pay an entry fee and have my bags searched before I walk in the door!

Ribfest is always great. Draws the people from here there and everywhere. Would like to see tickets used to pay vendors instead of paying them cash. Centralized food coupon sales would keep the vendors honest in the taxes they pay to the city. Let them turn in their coupons to get paid. Less handling money and food too without sanitizing hands. Also, kids can redeem tickets eassier than being resposible for getting the correct change. Works at taste of Chicago, why not here? Other than that thought, those responsible for putting this on deserve kudos on a job well done.

I saw the first place ribs in the paper. Can someone list 1st thru 3rd for ribs and sauce and the children's award?
By the way, the Johnson's thermonuclear sauce was the hotest sauce I've ever had. Too hot for me, but I ate my half slab.

One more thing...
I saw Heart Thursday night. They sounded good. The sound wasn't overpoweringly loud. Partly because the Wilson sisters probably can't belt it out as loud anymore. But I liked the volume. I saw REO a couple years ago and Heart did a much better job.

It's time to give residents a break. WE do not go to Ribfest---we just have to put up with the congestion. How about moving it south--like around 95th ST., or 127th St,. Isn't that part of Naperville, too?? In any case, if charity were really a part of this rather than ego, these idea would be given consideration. Where there's a will, there's a way. Get off my lawn.

By Eaton Ribs on July 5, 2009 9:13 AM
Would like to see tickets used to pay vendors instead of paying them cash. Centralized food coupon sales would keep the vendors honest in the taxes they pay to the city. Works at taste of Chicago, why not here?

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Sadly with no controls, most if not all of these Rib Fest Vendors will skim. If we get 400,000 visitors and each spends 50 dollars, that is 20 million bucks. At a sales tax rate of 7.25% that is $1,450,000 skimmed from the Naperville and Illinois taxpayers....something we can least afford in these punishing harsh economic times.

These vendors are mobile and travel the country. They are most likely not going to file sales tax in each state they operate in. As soon as the fest is over, they jump in their trucks and pull their trailors to the next state. Does anyone believe they are going to stop by and find a CPA who will do their sales tax? Does anyone think they are going to stop buy at the nearest Illinois Dept. of Revenue office to turn in 7.25% of the sales tax they collected?...lol....as much as you want. The vendors of the RibFest certainly are at the Exchange Club officials for trusting them.

This could be why this Ribfest is one of the largest in the country despite being sponsored by a relatively small city. IT is a jack pot for these vendors since it is probably the only one in the nation that does not monitor sales tax. Is anyone surprised that the Rib Fest continues to grow exponentially? Why there is a waiing line to get in? It is because most if not all vendors steal the 7.25% sales tax above their normal profit. It is a windfall profit provided by the incompetence of the Exchange Club, City Officials and the Park District Officials.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Why the vendors will not file sales tax reports:

1. It is too much work to try to become familiar with the sales tax system of each state they operate in and to find the proper forms necessary. If it is too much work, they probably won't do it.

2. The chance of getting caught if you have no address is remote to non-existent. Most of these vendors live on the road as they travel from state to state.

3. Human nature is greed driven and the vendors will pocket this $1,450,000 dollars since there is no way to check on them. The city does not even require a 200 dollar basic cash register to ring up the transactions that could be Z'd out after 4 days and checked for accurate sales readings.

4. If registers existed police, park district personnel and exchange organizers could at least make sure all transactions were rung up leading to accurate X readings each night and a final Z reading to cover all 4 evenings.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

The Exchange Club is failing the taxpayer while abusing money from the cultural fund of the taxpyayer to pay for police OT. If anything they should show some respect to the Naperville Taxpayer and make sure the sales tax is collected for the residents. The residents deserve better especially since they are paying the police and park district OT on behalf of the Exchange Club to subsidize this private event.

And to add insult to injury the Exchange Club is hoarding hundreds of thousands of dollars and directing them towards investments instead of giving them to the needy, abused and poor. Check their financial reports and you will be SHOCKED!

They give to charity one of the smallest percentages of any charity in the United States of America while being provided so many benefits and services free of charge by the City of Naperville and the Park Disctrict.

VeldaVolunteer on July 5, 2009 11:56 AM

Yes Velda, regrettably there are parts of Naperville other than where you live. You may be surprised to know that Naperville goes from North of I88 all the way South to 119th street. It's funny you bring up ego, some people may read your post and think yours is (slightly) inflated.

Music choices were terrible. Talk about a huge drop in quality of bands.....

Whose paying for police OT –

To answer your question, the city gave the Exchange Club $136,178 on April 8, 2009 through a SECA (Culture Fund) grant for “city services”. This is paid for through a 1% food & beverage tax. The city also allocated SECA money for the fireworks and Ribfest shuttles.

I assume this $136K was the police OT, but it’s not specified in the SECA allocation.

You can find all the allocations for this fiscal year at:

http://www.naperville.il.us/emplibrary/FY10%20SECA%20FINAL%20FUNDING%20for%20web.pdf

T.B.

I think Naperville really got it right this year! You are a beautiful city, but it's hard to handle large events like Ribfest, and this year EVERYTHING went so smoothly, from a guest perspective! Parking, access to the fest, the food, the info...all the volunteers were patient, informed, and could "adjust things on the fly" if a guest needed assistance. I saw numerous examples of courtesy to patrons, above and beyond what would be expected. I'm from Chicago, and though we have fabulous fests, few things equal the civility and smoothness of operation as what I saw at Ribfest on Sunday July 5. By the way, Herman's Hermits Starring Peter Noone was an unforgettable experience last night! I'm a fan, and have seen him before, and we need to get this guy back to IL more often! Look at the crowd he drew! And the way all the fans were interacting with his every initiation from stage!!! What a legedary performer! Kudos Naperville Ribfest for getting EVERYTHING right!

Ribfest is all about making money for profit making vendors, entertainers, etc. not to mention the legions of Naperville city workers eager to cash in on all of the overtime pay. Ribfest is not about raising money for charity. The amount of money that actually goes to charity is so pitifully low and so lopsided compared to revenue receipts it should be a personal embarrassment to anyone associated with RibFest who has any personal ethics and morals and especially to anyone who truly cares about abused children.

What is a shame is that a straightforward fundraiser would generate a whole lot more money for abused children. With the current system only a few pennies from every dollar ever get to help abused children. Even profit making companies that set aside a percent of profit for charity are able to give a higher percentage than what RibFest is able to do. The very basis for the event simply does not make any economic sense.

If we just want to have a huge community party then we should do it without any pretense of RibFest being a charitable event because it simply is not.

What I thought of Ribfest this year was to boycott it completely. After the harrowing experience my family had last year trying to get out safely we decided to go to the Kane County Cougars, where we probably spent about the same amount of money, had decent beer to drink (Two Brothers, who were shut out of any of the Naperville events a few years ago), and I felt much safer letting my kids go get their own food & drinks. Plus, it is a good time! And the fireworks at the end - definitely worth the price alone!

Last year I also was frustrated because my father was a patient at Manor Care and for 5 days I basically couldn't go visit him - my mother had to arrive at 9am to procure one of the few spots at ManorCare itself and then she didn't dare leave until evening. Not the kind of stress our family needed added to an already stressful situation.

Move the festival to the DuPage County Fairgrounds, or as another writer mentioned, let the South Side of Naperville get to have Ribfest in their backyard next year! It's only fair!

I also adopted the strategy of "don't go".

-Nowhere to park / have to take shuttle.

-Pay to get in.

-Overpriced food which is of no better quality than you could get at a local restaurant under much less stressful circumstances.

-Food prepared by people under questionable hygenic conditions.

-Crowded.

-I've heard way too much grumbling about city funded police overtime (wink wink), lax efforts at collecting taxes from vendors, and minimal money going to exchange club charitable causes. And, frankly, too little of people in city hall refuting these allegations even though they've had every opportunity to do so.

I think the prevailing mentality is that if only 1% of people think deeply enough to realize that something less than pure is going on, then the other 99% have chosen blissful oblivion and therefore politically minded rascals can get away with this sort of thing. It's an epidemic in our nation and our society, not just in Naperville. Sort of like bringing a 1200 page "climate bill" to the House floor and pushing it to a vote when not one representative realistically has had time to read it. Not one. But hey, you must vote now! Hurry! Vote now! There's no time to waste, vote now! (Sort of sounds like D204 when they bought the AME land for Metea Valley, come to think of it!...hey what about getting an appraisal? NO, there's no time, we must act NOW!...so sit down and shut up!)

I could digress further to point out that a similar mentality was used for the financial stimulus/bailout (trillion dollars -- must act NOW!) and will surely be used for the health care welfare plan (another trillion dollars -- must act NOW!)...but I know this thread is about Ribfest.

Anyway, I stayed away. I'm sick of the local "machine".

Would someone from the Exchange Club like to comment on the cost to run Ribfest v.s. The actual dollars that go to charity. If there are so many volunteers, why not have city employees and police volunteer their time for a good cause too?

Glad to hear that the Kane County Cougars were an option. They do provide a nice entertainment value for their dollar.

Not shocked to see people complain about RibFest. Just a shame that residents can't enjoy the benefits of it. If you don't like it, travel somewhere for the weekend or lock yourself up in your home. Or go to City Council and complain. Nothing will get done if you complain about it on a local newspaper blog.

Eatin Ribs wrote:

If there are so many volunteers, why not have city employees and police volunteer their time for a good cause too?

The operative word in your question is "volunteer". If the police and other city employees do not wish to volunteer their time, what do you do?

BigMike,
As long as most City of Naperville residents are oblivious, the vendors of the RibFest will continue to skim the 1.45 million in sales tax generated by the RibFest.

You think the City of Naperville would make sure it was collected to avoid another $11.5 million deficit. And if they added another 1% for the cultural sales tax fund as they add elsehwere in town, that would be an additional $200,000 and this would more than pay for the 100k we spend for police OT at the event.

I guess, I made a mistake and the number should be 1.65 million dollars in sales tax revenue not collected if we include the cultural tax. And while we are on the subject since this Fest uses our parking garages, why not tax them an additional 1.5% that downtown retailers pay. Why should they be exempt? They not only use the garages but destroy hundreds of acres of grass with all their supporting vehicles that need to park somewhere. Who is paying for the landscaping needed after they leave? You guessed right again.....us residents.

Now we are at 9.75% sales tax just like the downtown restaurant owners. That is $1,950,000 dollars, that went down the drain in 4 days with the rain, because it was not collected for the city and state.

Yes, we force these vendors to pay 4500 dollars for rent for 4 days. Yet we can not force them to buy a register for 200 dollars from Sam's Warehouse so they can tally their receipts properly and pay us our sales tax to reduce the burden on the Naperville Taxpayers for what they go through to hold this massive event. The 4500 dollars in rent is easily paid for from the taxpayer skimmed money and they still have tens of thousands to take and put in their mattresses. (Let us hope they don't throw their mattresses away like the Israeli street vendor who forget hers was stuffed with one million in cash and threw it away when she bought a new mattress.)

I could not believe the shape of the street alongside of NCHS from all the 3 foot steel rods they pounded into the pavement to hold all the equipment, tents and signs up. Who is going to repair this road? The vender or the taxpayers? You guessed right again....the taxpayers, while the vendors are in another state raking its residents to stuff their mattresses at taxpayer expense.

The City of Naperville has shown massive incompetence by allowing the venders at the RibFest to skate off with nearly 2 million of our sales tax dollars.

I call for the entire City Council to resign effective immediately. This is the same City Council that cost us over a million dollars in sunk costs at the library deck that they later decided not to build after they thought it was a great idea. This is the same city council that cost us nearly 2 million dollars to fight the silly Furstenau Case instead of issuing a simple apology wheteher it was deserved or undeserved. Our city council has such inflated egos that they can no longer see straight. They have been blinded by their power.

Let us have an election recall if they don't resign voluntarily. Too much money is going uncollected and too much uncollected money is being spent. That is why we have a Budget Crisis despite having McMansions landscaping our town from North to South and from East to West.

Ya' Your All Correct.
Let's Just Leave it at That!

MHB wrote:

If we get 400,000 visitors and each spends 50 dollars, that is 20 million bucks. At a sales tax rate of 7.25% that is $1,450,000 skimmed from the Naperville and Illinois taxpayers....something we can least afford in these punishing harsh economic times.

And if we get 800,000 visitors, that would be $2,900,000 skimmed, while 1,600,000 visitors would mean $5,800,000 skimmed, and 100 million visitors would mean $362,500,000 skimmed! Yikes!

The problem with all of these figures is that the actual estimated attendance was 127,000, they probably did not spend an average of $50, and I'd bet that all of the vendors turned over at least some sales tax proceeds.

By John Q. Public on July 6, 2009 5:56 PM

I'd bet that all of the vendors turned over at least some sales tax proceeds.

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I will take you up on that bet.

I will bet you that at most only some of the vendors turned over at least some of their sales tax proceeds.
.
To say "ALL" is nonsensical. It indicates that these vendors are filing sales tax returns in all 50 states...that they are familiar with the collection process in each state. That they are movtivated to pay what is simply UNTRACKABLE....since not one vendor used a register or computer. It was mostly cash in the hand to be deposited in a mattress later until it is spent.

Chicago gives out coupons for the food and memorabilia vendors, collects the sales tax and submits it to the appropriate taxing bodies. It takes a lot of pressure off these mobile vendors while forcing them to be honest.

It would be easier for the City of Naperville to file one sales tax on behalf of 200 or 300 vendors.....to make sure it is collected. Let us put the legal department to work for once. They are more equipped to handle a tax return than a vendor who specializes in flipping ribs and creating a unique barbecue sauce.

The bottom line is money is being skimmed from the taxpeyers. We don't know how much. If the changes I suggested are implemented, we will know how much we took it up the WAZZZZZOOOOOOOOOO!

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PS. When I am trying to make a point based on an estimate, please don't dispute my ESTIMATE. Dispute my POINT. I went to the RibFest twice and I was told they had the 39,000 capacity and had to wait to get in. I assumed they were turning people at least twice a day for 4 days. I can not see anyone spending all day at a PigFest...but I could be wrong if only 127,000 attended. Maybe this PigFest does not turn over people twice a day. Where did you read about the 127,000? I must have missed it somewhere. I am sure the rainfall must have had a great impact on attendence for Saturday. But what about next year if it does not pour on one of the 4 days? Should we let them continue to skim, John? Please offer some solutions instead of worrying about my estimates. What is your solutions based on YOUR ESTIMATE or the REAL NUMBER if it is out?

I have been going to the naperville for 6 or 7 years. I was unable to attend it this year. After reading all of these blogs, what is with all the topics on tax and skimming of naperville?

Please dont pay attention to that blogger, she/he/it is a professional blogging and intentionally misleads and lies on blogs. The good old Sun is keeping her nonsense going everyday so pay attention as she lies, and complains at 2am writting on the blogs. Or just read all the past Napergate blogs and you will find out what he/she/it is talking about. Same old Same old here....

Glass Pig:
Those are the people that hate naperville,military,firemen,police,and teachers. They never have anything nice to say about anything. They are pathetic looooosers.

I was just wondering about the tax topics because I know a couple of the vendors that were there. They had told me that a city tax rep would be there sunday night to collect local tax. The state tax would have to filed later I believe The vendors all also had to fill out tax forms and get the proper ID numbers for the state tax.

Sounds like most of you just hate life in general. Once a year, just go out and have fun. Along with all the travesties.

MHP,

The 127,000 figure came from the article in the Sun today. And when you get in the habit of giving realistic estimates, I will stop criticizing your estimates. Otherwise, one might get the impression that you're trying to blow the issue out of proportion. But, of course, we all know that you would never do that.I

To say "ALL" is nonsensical.

So it's nonsensical when I do it, but perfectly reasonable when you do it? And I only said that they probably all pay something, leaving open the possibility that some of or even all of them might not be paying all they owe. You, on the other hand, are operating under the assumption that none of them pay anything. So who's really being unrealistic here.

As for coming up with my own solution to the "problem", as is often the case, you have no actual proof that there is a problem other than your own speculation. I do think what the City of Chicago does makes sense, though, as it removes any temptation to cheat.

-JQP

Glass Pig,

I enjoyed watching them dismantle the RibFest. There was no city tax rep Sunday night collecting any taxes local or otherwise.

Your theory must come from the Stone Age or is a figment of your imagination.

No city rep would be allowed to go from vendor to vendor collecting cash for sales tax. He could end up pocketing all the proceeds with no controls. Just like the Toll Authority guys did before controls were implemented. Why would a vendor trust someone who approached them at 11pm and stated I am a city collection officer....that seems so unusual and unlikely!

The bottom line was there was no system to control the vendor revenues at PigFest. There were no 21st century computers and/or no 20th century old fashioned cash registers. Even if a revenue agent was working at 11pm in the evening on Sunday which is very unlikely since I would have noticed him, they could give him anything they want and tell him anything they want. (BTW, I do not even believe the City of Naperville has revenue agents. And you would have need dozens of revenue agents to handle the 200 plus vendors.)

I think you are spreading rumors on this blog site to protect the inefficiencies and incompetence of City Hall.

What is so hard about demanding these vendors have 200 dollar cash registers that can be monitored by the regular police and park district police on OT who are basically doing nothing. If they see a vendor put money in his pocket instead of ringing it up and documenting it, he should be arrested on the spot. Once word got out and around, all the vendors would be honest for fear of also being arrested and we the taxpayers could be a million or two richer.

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PS. It would be nice if bloggers focused on solutions instead of personal attacks day and night. I am trying to put an extra million in your pockets and reduce your real estate tax bills and you guys are attacking me. Hopefully, one day the Moderator will censure your posts before we end up in a mud puddle all over again.

PS II. Please notice the roots of the personal attacks, Moderator. I am not going to respond. But when you issue your warnings, please be kind enough to exclude me from your suggestions or warnings to halt the personal attacks. Thank you, Moderator! BTW, welcome back from your vacation. I hope you had a great time.

JQP,
I used an estimate based on my observation. I was wrong.

I was told twice the park was at capacity which is 39,000.

I had no clue people come and stay all day. I thought this PigFest turned over at least twice a day. I guess I was wrong.

I know I would never spend all day at a PigFest. I got there at 9pm and left at 1030pm one day and 11pm another night.

If I knew revenue agents were collecting sales tax(lol), I would have stayed till midnight or 1am to verify this collection process for the bloggers. However, I saw no revenue agents.

If I had seen the 127,000 number which I believe is much lower than previous years, I would have used the actual number for my estimates. The bottom line is when you have a budget shortfall, you have to watch every penny that the city/taxpayers are entitled to.

Do you think the City of Naperville is watching your tax dollars, JQP? Are you against my suggestion to have 200 dollar cash registers documenting the sales as is practice in all businesses?

And I only said that they probably all pay something, leaving open the possibility that some of or even all of them might not be paying all they owe.

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John,

You never used the word probably in describing the "pay something phrase." You clearly stated they are ALL paying something.

The word "probably" was used in context of 50 dollars being spent which you also disputed. It is not hard to spend 50 bucks at the Pig Fest when it takes 10 bucks to get in, 22 dollars for a full slab of pig ribs, a soft drink for 6 dollars, a refill for 3 dollars, and an elephant ear for desert that cost 5 bucks. A corn of cob will cost you 3 bucks.

That adds up to $49 and that is without drinking any alcohol or buying any memorabilia or tipping. Or getting on any of the expensive rides or playing any of the numerous games.

A thin cheese pizza slice was going for 5 bucks. Even a thin girl needs at least 2 slices to feel filled up. I guess if you just go to observe you can get away with the 10 dollar cover charge. But who just goes there to observe? It is a PigFest and people are there to eat and sample pig ribs and whatever other foods are available.

They got me for 86 dollars and I was only there for the final hour on 2 nights. And I did not have any alcohol. All the food I had was delicious. Of course, I was starving after swimming.

If I had to pay 10 dollars each day for parking, I would have been at 106 dollars. At 9pm, it is easy to find free and nearby parking. It seems like most parking park attendants quit befor 9pm. Thank God for some break!

I believe my estimate was probably conservative and reasonable contrary to what you are trying to imply.

Big Fat City Pensions will get my Tax Refund on April 19, 2009 10:41 PM

Most Napervillians are too smart to let Ribfest separate them from their money and for the most part do not even attend Ribfest anymore.

I have stated from day one is it (sic) a sham transaction and I stand by this assesment I made on this blog site 2 years ago. No one has provided a single fact to prove me wrong.

Like most Napervillians bloggin here, I stopped going to the Pig Fest many years ago when it got too big and fat and was no longer local.

Anonymous on July 6, 2009 8:19 PM

When I am trying to make a point based on an estimate, please don't dispute my ESTIMATE. Dispute my POINT. I went to the RibFest twice and I was told they had the 39,000 capacity and had to wait to get in. I assumed they were turning people at least twice a day for 4 days.

_______________________________

MHB, on a previous thread you claim to have stopped going to ribfest (Pigfest as you called it), and now you claim to have gone twice? At some point you really need to get your stories straight! When you were making your POINT on the previous thread you were claiming to not be going to make your story more relevant, and now claiming to have gone twice is used to make this story more relevant?

This is why your stories lose their value and believability. You make claims that are later proven wrong - in this case, one of your stories is not true - which is it?

I attended the Ribfest on Sunday evening. The music was playing and thousands of people were having fun. As someone concerned about the planet, I noticed right away that there were no recycling receptacles. I saw mountains of garbage including plastic cups, bottles and other recyclables hauled away in the same bags with regular garbage. Why aren't there choices for concerned people to responsibly throw out their plastic, glass and other items rather than have them go into a landfill? If there is a plan for later sorting these items from the trash, I would like to know about it. If not, why not offer people a choice? Naperville is a leader in other green issues, why not this one? We all make a difference.

MHB,

I stand corrected. I did not literally say "probably"---though I did say "I'd bet", which indicates I am open to the possibility that I am wrong in the same way that probably does. I am sorry for any misunderstanding this caused.

I still dispute your $50 estimate, though you could be right. It is my understanding that a lot of children attend rib fest. If you have any kids, you know that two slices of pizza is often one too many, a full slab of ribs is enough to last three or four meals, and soft drinks often go less than half consumed. Most parents don't give their kids alcohol, either---especially not with all of those OT-earning cops walking around, LOL!

As for festival attendance, last year it was 225,000. The rain and the state of the economy probably had a significant impact this year. But 400,000 is still way off the mark, even if the park were always at the maximum of 39K customers, and turnover averaged 100 percent each day. So now that you know the real figure, can we rely on you to stop using your claim that more than $1 million in sales taxes were lost? I'm not disputing that some sales taxes might have gone unpaid; I just don't think it adds anything to one's argument to blow the problem out of proportion. In fact, it makes one appear less credible.

-JQP

MHP,

One more thing. As Anonymous ONE pointed out, a few months ago you said you don't even attend the Rib/Pig Fest anymore. (IIRC, back then you also said something along the lines of "pigs are filthy animals" and that you don't eat pork.) This year you apparently changed your mind and went not once, but twice, though you didn't stick around very long either time. But you are also saying you returned Sunday night and stayed long enough to know that there was never, at any time that night, a representative from the city whose job it was to collect taxes.

I'm getting confused here. It seems that, when it suits one argument, you never go to the Ribfest. When it suits another argument, you go twice in a couple of days, but don't stay very long. And when it suits a third argument, you return after the fest is over and spend you entire Sunday evening watching them take it down.

-JQP

A Daily Herald article from April 10, 2009 stated that five vendors from last year had yet to pay their taxes and that the Exchange Club would be working with the vendors this year to make sure they paid their taxes before they left the fest grounds. This would tend to support glass pig’s post of 07/06 @ 10:36 p.m.

Also, this tells me that the five vendors are known, the tax has presumably been assessed (just not collected), and the city & the Exchange Club are working towards resolving this issue.

Personally, I’d be surprised if there was a cash business in Naperville not skimming their receipts.

T.B.

I am surprised and happy to find that there are a few posters here that still have some common sense.

My points for the discussion:

1. "No Napervillians go to Ribfest" - Patently false. Virtually everyone I know in Naperville attended at least once through the weekend. many on multiple occasions. My own family went twice.

2. "The Vendors Live on the Road" - Not entirely true. Most of the Rib teams are hired and operated by various restaurants (Texas Cowboys is in KY etc.). While the teams may travel quite a bit, they are not the "carnies" of the olden days you envision.

3. "The food is of low quality" - As a former Texan, I can tell you that this is the closest you can get to decent BBQ anywhere in a hundred mile radius...Twin Anchors included....

4. "Revenue Collectors would not collect cash" - Not true. In my past experience helping to manage a festival in Chicago, I have personally dealt with the City employees showing up, escorted by a Uniformed Police Officer, to collect Taxes. It absolutely happens. Additionally, if Naperville decides to assess the Taxes after the fact, they have the same legal means to collect it as they would a brick and mortar business. No difference.

5. "Money not going to charities" - Stop saying this as fact. In a discussion thread a while back it was demonstrated that many of the poster's here simply do not understand accounting and how to read a Financial Statement. This statement is false and serves no purpose than to incite anger and possibly deter others from participating in a charity event. Many local charities are on record stating they receive a significant portion of their proceeds from the Naperville Exchange Club. The vast majority of that money comes from Ribfest.

This topic drives me crazy. If you have no logical or factual basis for your posting, don't post it. The topic asked about your experience. If you have one, post about it. If you just want to to throw around lies and diatribes against everything in the world, go tell your neighbor instead of posting it here.....

TB-

"Personally, I’d be surprised if there was a cash business in Naperville not skimming their receipts."

You could probably safely expand that comment from "in Naperville" to "in the entire world." People are inherently greedy, if someone tells you they run a cash-based business and are reporting 100% of their income, they're most likely not telling the whole truth.

On the lighter side of things,... I really liked Ribfest this year (and past years). Why?

1. It is fun. Eating ribs, cotton candy, snow cones, and drinking beer while enjoying live outdoor music. Life is good.

2. It brings a lot of people to Naperville, some of whom also shop, eat and drink at the many retail shops in and around downtown Naperville. This is good for the city, our businesses and our tax receipts.

Overall, I think the city does a good job -- managing crowds, providing bus transportation from parking lots in the area, etc. Also, kudo's to North Central College for opening up the football stadium to the public for the fireworks show.

MHB, on a previous thread you claim to have stopped going to ribfest (Pigfest as you called it), and now you claim to have gone twice? At some point you really need to get your stories straight! When you were making your POINT on the previous thread you were claiming to not be going to make your story more relevant, and now claiming to have gone twice is used to make this story more relevant?

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Anonymous One,

There is no contradiction here. I had stopped going to the PigFest some time about 5 or 6 years ago. This year I was leaving my subdivision pool and heading to downtown. After seeing all the signs, I decided to visit PigFest on Thursday. I consider myself a Citizen Journalist and if I am going to blog here, it is important to have first hand knowledge. I went back again Sunday to further observe and stayed a good hour after closing.

While others can blab and blabber, I can say I was there and did not see any Revenue Agents for the City of Naperville. All I saw was a rush to dismantle everything. I was a little suprised that the City of Naperville did not require hard hats in that dangerous zone. It would be utterly foolish for revenue agents to be collecting sales tax while metal bars are falling down everywhere. After a little over an hour of hanging around, I thought I better leave for safety reasons.

I have no doubt big time skimming is taking place. The city of Naperville is extremely negligent in not taking measures to prevent it. Selling coupons like Chicago does, is a way to prevent skimming. Even some swim meets in Naperville use this method.

Yes, some retailers in Naperville can and do skim. But it is not as easy as people think. It is not widespread. IRS and Ilinois Dept. of Revenue agents have access to registers and computers and can bust most retailers if and when they choose. They can easily find them as they have addresses.

What most people on this blog site do not know, is that all restaurants, bars, liquor stores, lounges, nightclubs, etc. have to report their cost of alcohol purchases to the Illinois Dept. of Revenue. And the wholesalers report these same purchases to the Illinios Dept. of Revenue. The ID of R expects the numbers to match and checks them monthly by computer to make sure they match. If the government knows how much you are buying, they have a great grasp on what you are selling. And with computer reports and register tapes, they can nail you pretty easily. They can make random visits and make sure transactions are being rung up. If a revenue agent notices a retailer pocketing sales, you can be assured an audit will follow soon.

In the PigFest, the cash is not even rung up. It is put in aprons and later stuffed in mattresses. It is chaotic. The PigFest vendors love the Naperville Stone Age System. They can show them whatever amount of cash they want to and say this is all we did today. Here is your 200 dollars in tax when they owe 2000 dollars.

And apparently we now find out last year some PigFest Vendors just took off without paying a single penny in taxes or even filing a tax return. This was in the Daily Herald. Now where were the Naperville Revenue Agents when all this happened last year, if there were/are Revenue Agents? Were they sleeping behind the wheel?

You all claim you have crediblity. None of you do. None of you know what to look for. None of you know how to observe. All you do is eat those pig ribs and vote for how delicious they were. I had some barbecue chicken and beef ribs at the PigFest and they were also delicious. But my mind was focused on corruption and improprieties while chowing down the excellent food that literally melted in my mouth.

You can not be a Citizen Journalist without observing. How many of you stayed after the PigFest Sunday night to see what happens? How many of you saw the 4 foot steel rods being pulling out of the street by machinery and destroying our Naperville streets? How many of you even know who is going to pay for the street destruction created by this PigFest?

All you folks know how to do is eat pigs ribs and blabber. Now discuss the issues that concern taxpayer dollars and stop blabbering about me and tyring to get me in the mud ring again. I am not interested in mud wrestling. I proved once that I master the filthiest words in the English language that I used to retaliate. I don't need to prove it a second time. Why do we need to go there again? Let us act like mature adults and discuss the issues of the PigFest. Let us not be accusing others of lying when they are being truthful. All you do is destroy your credibility assuming you had any in the first place.

The Exchange Club estimates that only 19,000 passed through the festival's gates that day. Consequently, overall attendance figures fell significantly from last year, when an about 75,000 showed up on the Fourth, and, in all, an estimated 255,000 attended the four-day festival.

The Naperville Sun

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By John Q. Public on July 7, 2009 11:28 AM
MHB,

I stand corrected. I did not literally say "probably"---though I did say "I'd bet", which indicates I am open to the possibility that I am wrong in the same way that probably does. I am sorry for any misunderstanding this caused.

As for festival attendance, last year it was 225,000. The rain and the state of the economy probably had a significant impact this year.

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Everything is a misunderstanding for you. Now you state 225,000 attended last year when you know it was 255,000. You can not even read an article and keep your numbers straight. Are you going to apologize again for the misunderstanding or are you going to admit you are deliberating deflating numbers to try to make your POINT?

You want to scold someone for daring to make a rough estimate to calculate potential sales tax loss. I estimated 400k based on observations and the belief that the PigFest turns over at least twice a day. Little did I know this Pigfest could not even turn over an average of once a day. How sad for all this energy to be wasted on 127,000 patrons? A whole year of planning down the drain with attendance less than half of last year. Mabye people are finally getting tired of the PigFest and its very small percentage contributions to charity.

Well if the actual numbers for last year were 255,000, my estimate of 400,000 was not out of the ball park. It was a little high but it was a reasonable estimate. If you would have told Exchange Organizers that less than half would show up this year compared to last year, they would have thought you were crazy. Well, it actually happened!

An estimate is an estimate. You try your best. You could be wrong and I was wrong. So were PigFest organizers.....very wrong. They expected to break prior years records.

You can't even back up your words that ALL pig vendors pay some sales tax. After I questioned you and another blogger revealed a Daily Herald article proving you were wrong, you change your own written words in an attempt to redeem yourself. Now we find out you try to deflate last years PigFest numbers intentionally to take a stab at my estimate again.

I think you need to get out there John and do some Citizen Journalistic Reporting. We all know how to read the Naperville Sun and you do not need to recite what you read to us. You are not even capable of reciting accurately....so why recite at all.

At this point all you do is try to Moderate and call people names. WE have a Moderator and we don't need immature name calling on this blog site. Please grow up, Mr. Public. The path you are on will not get you anywhere. Try to focus on the subject of the thread instead of being obsessed with what I may say or not say.

Get over your obsession with the Multi-Handle Blogger and move on.

Thank you!

MHB,

That was mistake. I admit my mistakes without whining. I understated the actual figure for last year by a bit more than 11-12% because I was quoting from memory. Your 400,00 figure for this year was more than 200% too high, and almost 60% if you use last year as a baseline, so, no, I wouldn't say you were in the ballpark.

You can't even back up your words that ALL pig vendors pay some sales tax. After I questioned you and another blogger revealed a Daily Herald article proving you were wrong, you change your own written words in an attempt to redeem yourself.

Well, I changed/clarified my position to probably all. You still haven't changed your contention that none of the vendors paid any sales tax, though I find it interesting that you would say T.B. only proved me wrong. The article says there are five vendors that hadn't paid. What about all of others? You said NONE of them paid. So it seems that my position may be closer to the truth than years.

You are not even capable of reciting accurately....so why recite at all.

Well, my figure from memory was close to the truth, while many of your "facts" on which you base your arguments were sheer speculation, and very far off the mark. So feel free to double check any article I mention, but rest assured that any mistakes I make in paraphrasing are purely unintentional, and that I will own up to them when they are pointed out. You, on the other hand, have built a whole career on Potluck using exaggeration and speculation, and you will argue the "soundness" of your positions based on these "facts" until your last breath.

At this point all you do is try to Moderate and call people names. WE have a Moderator and we don't need immature name calling on this blog site.

Really? When did I call you a name? Or do you consider MHB a name? Since it refers to Multi-Handled Blogger, why is that a name? And if you don't like me calling you MHB, then suggest some other short, unique handle, because, even if you're not going to stick with a single handle, I'm going to stick with one by which I will refer to you when I respond.

Try to focus on the subject of the thread instead of being obsessed with what I may say or not say.

LOL! Tell me again which one of us is playing Moderator, here? And, BTW, I corrected mistakes in your posts, so how is that NOT about the subject of this thread? Are we just supposed to pretend everything you say is gospel truth? And why does it irk you so much to be corrected? Getting your facts right is important if there is to be a meaningful discussion. The difference between (using last year's figures and your estimates) dozens of vendors not turning over sales taxes from 400,000 customers, and a handful not paying from 255,000 is pretty significant, and changes the scope of the problem from a scandal, to a problem in need of a better solution.

-JQP

I have to wonder @ $10/car just how much money
really ends up in the Boy Scouts hands...

RibFest vs. Eyes to the Skids / Lisle
Lisle's hit bottom; financially & had no headliners

I too am game for the 'extra' %1.5 NaperThrill sales tax

Seems to me that there's a %10 reward paid by the IRS
for turning in tax fraud cases

Although tough to enforce; having Naperville Resident fees
vs. non-resident fees makes sense to me; as does NO SMOKING

Its definetly time to allow the Southern 1/2 of Naperville
the opportunity to 'enjoy' having RibFest in their backyards

Will we allow parking on the LaCrosse fields in 2010?

I think that the Exchange Club & City Council / Park District
is due for a nice audit
nobody's walked away with a golden parachute in months

for ribs; I just head down ogden Ave to Famous Daves
and get parking and wait staff - no entry fee

John,

I made an estimate of 400,000 based strictly on observation. I said my estimate was wrong. How can you say I don't admit my mistakes? Of course I do. Why do you enjoy lying on this blog site? Or do you not read. Maybe you will apologize again for the 3rd time in 3 hours.

400,000-255,000= 145,000/400,000 = 36.25% OFF. I was definetly in the ball park. You are attacking me for daring to make an estimate without having inside information. I am entilted to make an estimate and being wrong is not lying or trying to spread propaganda.

The PigFest was down over 100% from last year. The Exchange Club are experts and could not predict this 100% decline.

If I am not in the ball park with my estimate, they are not even in the State with their false expectations and preparations for a larger crowd.

They cost the taxpayers tons of money since less than half the people showed up compared to last year. They did not reduce police and park district OT by half. They cost you the taxpayer tons of money, John.

I did not cost you a penny with my wrongful estimate after the fact. It was simply a guess. Why are you picking on me for making a wrongful estimate? Do you know what an ESTIMATE even means, John?

As far as the Daily Herald, it stated 5 vendors ran away without paying any tax. The other vendors in my opinion paid a token tax and ran away. When they are collecting unaccounted for cash the temptation is too great to pay your tax in full. Most humans including priests and sheiks and rabbis would probably take a few bucks. Human nature is dishonest and needs to be controlled.

Did you see what the crooks did to Wall Street? Did you ever hear of Bernie Madoff?

If you found a one million bag of cash that fell out of a Brink's truck in the desert would you keep it or turn it in.

All people I asked this hypothetical question said they would keep it. I would keep it, too.

I am sure John, you would drive 120 miles an hour and throw it back on the Brink's truck. People who claim to be honest are usually the most dishonest. I suspect you are in this category, John!

blemum –

A quick response to your points:

1. "No Napervillians go to Ribfest" – While virtually everyone you know in Naperville attended at least once through the weekend, I can’t say the same. My family didn’t go and I don’t know any neighbors who went, either. It’s just gotten to be too big and too crowded.

I haven’t gone in years. The last time I tried to go, I was turned away because they were full. I once suggested to one of the fest organizers that they sell tickets good for a particular day so nobody would have be turned away, and the reply I got was they’re happy to turn people away because that means they’re full and making money. Nice attitude, huh?

2. "The Vendors Live on the Road" – I agree with you. We’re not talking about carnies here.

3. "The food is of low quality" – When I used to go, the food was excellent. It’s the setting I don’t care for any more.

4. "Revenue Collectors would not collect cash" – Again, I agree with you that they will if need be. This is an argument put forth by a non-credible source.

5. "Money not going to charities" – While I agree that plenty of money does go to charity, I think the person throwing this around means to say that as a percentage of money spent on the fest, very little goes to charity. I don’t necessarily buy that, plus I would argue that most attendees don’t care because they’re there for the food, beer, and music.

“If you have no logical or factual basis for your posting, don't post it.” Amen, brother. If only everyone would abide by this….

T.B.

I, too, would like to see an accurate accounting for the festival. If attendance was 225,000, as estimated, at say $9.00 per head ( to allow for advance discounts and some youth admitted free) then the total revenue was just over $2 million. Out of that comes cost to set up, take down, pay police -- that part is still not clear to me -- pay for the acts that perform, rent generators for lights and power, and disposal of the trash and porta potties. It's hard to believe that this event is a big money maker unless the city "donates" a lot of services. If the net is actually as small as I think it is, I wonder if the charity couldn't generate as large a net with a much smaller festival...Anything they make goes to a good purpose, but I do wonder about diminishing returns and increasing costs.

As for sales tax, I think that $30/head not counting admission which is not taxed is a fair number based upon people I've spoken to. 225,000 at $30 at 2% ( the city's portion only) is only $135,000 in local sales tax revenue. I have to agree that the revenue reported for sales tax purposes will likely be inaccurate as no records are kept during the festival. ( Consider that some revenue generated at Ribfest almost certainly comes at the expense of brick and mortar restaurants in town. That has the effect of reducing the net sales tax revenue generated by Ribfest.)

Finally, I would question how many people come to Naperville for the first time for the Ribfest and then come back again only because of the Ribfest. I don't doubt we get many out of town visitors, but I submit that if their first visit was only because of Ribfest, they are not likely to come back to spend money in our town at some other time. If they spend $30/head plus an admission fee, they aren't likely to spend any other money in town on the day they visit Ribfest.

Finally, as a North side resident, I am definitely not looking forward to relocating the festival to Nike Park. I won't fight it, I just won't like it -- we have enough traffic.

As someone who lives in the south half of Naperville, I would love it if Ribfest moved down here.

It might force people to understand that there is a Naperville, south of 75th street.

By Anonymous on July 8, 2009 1:09 AM

*****

The PigFest was down over 100% from last year. The Exchange Club are experts and could not predict this 100% decline.

-----------------------------
A 100% decline would mean that NO ONE showed up; e.g., 0 attendance.

EXPERIENCED,

You are correct. A decline from 255k to 127k is a little over 50% decline.

An increase from 127k to 255k is a little over a 100% increase.

I used the accurate numbers but stated the wrong percentage.

My apologies.

But nevertheless, it is shocking the PigFest was down 50% in one year. Most businesses would go out of business if they lost 50% of their revenue.

Here we have a very heavily subsidized event by the Naperville Taxpayers. They use the Park District land free of charge.

We pay both the Naperville Police and Park District Police not only regular time but OVERTIME from our taxes. We probably pay the Fire Dept. and Street and Sanitation OT too. Sure the volunteers pick up the hoardes of debris left by the pigs on the grass area, but who does the major cleaning??? Who is taking the garabage to the landfills and at whose expense?

They beat up our fields and streets and we the taxpayers repair them. One should peek closely at that street west of NCHS to see how much damage they did with those 4 foot steel rods they inserted in the blacktop to hold up tents and carnival games. Anyone who knows anything about streets will know water will seep through these holes and destroy the street in 5 years instead of 10 years. Resurfacing a street is a very expensive endeavor.

I am glad many bloggers are asking many good questions.

Last time I checked the Exchage Club had substantially over a million dollars on hand in cash and investments. Experienced knows the exact number. This is before any collections from this year's PigFest.

The City of Naperville should demand this money to fix the streets and pay for all the expenses related to the PigFest.

I think now that the Naperville Cemetery wants its land back, it is a good time to consider ending this PigFest Extravaganza. Apparently, the dead in the cemetery have spoken and said enough is enough. They died to live in peace. Not to have people stampeding alongside them with music blaring loud enough to wake up the deceased let alone the sleeping. And how so disrespectful that some pigs decided to throw their garbage over the cemetery fence. I guess some out-of-towners(possibly some in-towners) do not have any respect for the Naperville dead.

Anonymous on July 7, 2009 5:55 PM
While others can blab and blabber, I can say I was there and did not see any Revenue Agents for the City of Naperville.

__________________

what do revenue agents look like? Are they in uniform? You should ask around at your health club and see if there are any retired revenue agents that are willing to share inside information with you. You have an uncanny ability to coincidently run into experts in many of the fields you discuss here on the blog.

Also Anonymous, you may be surprised to know that I agree with you about selling tickets for food rather than using cash. This seems like a reasonable method to make sure the tax is collected. I would, however, still like to hear from the Exchange Club and City if this is truly an issue, or if it is your "Hardy Boys" type imagination after spending an hour on sunday night observing the break down of the event. Your little adventure sounds exciting, did you hide behind a tree or rock while observing? did you pretend to be one of the workers? Weren't you nervous? Wow, the lengths that a "citizen journalist" will go to break a story is amazing.

Sam Cravis,

We need to watch out for the entire 9.75% sales tax due and not just the City portion of the sales tax. We are state residents along with City of Napervillle residents.

If we don't watch for the state portion, your income tax rate will very likely go up 50% from 3% to 4.5% as is currently being proposed and pushed by Governor Quinn. The State of Illinios has huge pension and budget deficits, no different than the City of Naperville.

I believe that 3.50% of this 9.75% is for the City of Naperville.

1. 1% from the 7.25% is automatically for the city even though collected by state.

2. 1% is cultural tax collected by the city directly.

3. 1.5% is for the parking decks downtown that are used by the PigFest extensively. If they are not taxed this 1.5% they should be taxed this amount as they use these garages more than any other group during the 4 day Pig Festival.

By T.B. on July 8, 2009 7:09 AM

Thanks Man! It's always nice to be reassured that a few people on this blog still are living in the real world......

By Anonymous ONE on July 8, 2009 3:38 PM

__________________

what do revenue agents look like? Are they in uniform?

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Anonymous One,

When the PigFest was over, no one asked me to leave. So I continued walking around observing the dismantling of this massive event and the speed with which it is done.

1. We know for certain there were no revenue agents last year because 5 escaped town without paying a penny.....the source was the Daily Herald.

2. The escape could not happen if revenue agents were present collecting sales tax proceeds Sunday evening. It is not very easy to dismantle one of those Pig stands. Most were only half done when I left at about 11:15pm.

3. While a revenue agent does not have a certain look, he undergoes certain actions. He would be counting money with the vendor or collecting money from the vendor. Looking at paperwork. At least have a calculator with him. A cash box to put the cash in.

4. The City of Naperville does have some professionalism. A revenue agent would have at least a badge identifying himself or herself. Almost every other worker from the city could be identified by his dress or badge. Most likely a revenue agent would have a different look and demeanor from a pig rib flipper.

5. If a revenue agent for the City of Naperville was going from stand to stand collecting green cash for sales tax, most certainly he would be accompanied by a Naperville Police Officer for protection....just like in Chicago.

6. While there was security at the PigFest during operating hours, after closing anyone can enter and walk around as I did. I did not have to hide behind trees. The North East Gate and South Gate were not being manned by anyone.

7. I don't believe these vendors mind if you watch them build or dismantle their booths as long as you stay 20 feet away. They don't want you to get hurt in case a rod comes flying down unexpectedly. I kept my safe distance especially since I was not wearing a hard hat.

8.Based on my deliberate observations both Thursday and Sunday evenings after closing, I saw no one acting like a revenue agent. Again it would take dozens of agents to collect the sales tax from 200 plus vendors unless you want to keep them waiting all night long. A few hithced up and took off before I even left. They have the dismantling process down to a science as they apparently do it frequently. None were parked in the City Hall parking lot waiting to pay their sales taxes in the morning as I passed by it on the way home.

Finally, if what I am saying is not true, City of Naperville Officials or Sun Officials have a right to rebutt and rebuke me. Neither has rebutted or rebuked me....at least not yet. The challenge is there as I am making an ACCUSATION and standing behind it for now!

This could be a good story for the Naperville Sun to do. If in fact this tax collection process is a mess as I suspect, the Sun could give the City of Naperville some tough love and wake them up. Sure they would hate the embarrassment of being detected potentially incompetent. But I have little doubt that they would get their act together by next year and put the money in city coffers where it belongs. In the meantime it would have the positive effect of reducing the heavy burden on the Naperville Taxpayer and helping put a dent in their budget deficits which is now becoming an annual occurrence.

If you have any evidence that Revenue Agents were there, Anonymous One, please provide it instead of blabbering away. All you are doing is speculating nonsense. My analysis is based on being there, observing, a Daily Herald article and a lot of common sense and logic. I would be willing to bet I am right.

What is your anaylsis based on? NOTHING!!!

The former Moderator and Host encouraged us to be Citizen Journalists. The current Moderator has not discouraged us in anyway from being Citizen Journalists while at the same time not encouraging us. Why not try to be one and do some good for your town and its residents???

By Anonymous on July 8, 2009 3:36 PM

****

You are correct. A decline from 255k to 127k is a little over 50% decline.

-----------------

Actually it's a 49.8% decline. 127/255 is 49.8%.

While there was security at the PigFest during operating hours, after closing anyone can enter and walk around as I did.

_____________________________

Based on your description of the event after closing I find it highly unlikely that Revenue Agents would be sitting and counting money with the vendor where you could observe this. By your own admission "anyone can enter and walk around". You commented that "While a revenue agent does not have a certain look, he undergoes certain actions. He would be counting money with the vendor or collecting money from the vendor. Looking at paperwork. At least have a calculator with him. A cash box to put the cash in." The fact that you didn't see it yourself doesn't mean it wasn't taking place.

You go on to describe what an agent looks like (Most likely a revenue agent would have a different look and demeanor from a pig rib flipper.) But the fact that you use the term "most likely" tells me that you haven't a clue.

You made a good point about using tickets for food for which I agreed with you. Why you are going off on this "Revenue Agent" tangent is beyond me.

By Experienced on July 8, 2009 6:45 PM
By Anonymous on July 8, 2009 3:36 PM

****

You are correct. A decline from 255k to 127k is a little over 50% decline.

-----------------

Actually it's a 49.8% decline. 127/255 is 49.8%.

========================================================================================================================================

Sorry Experienced, but I am RIGHT and you are WRONG since you are determined to be technical to the last decimal point.

A decline from 255k to 127k is a 128k delcine....not a 127k decline.

Thus the DECLINE is 128/255 which is equal to 50.19607%.

Which is a little over 50% as I correctly stated initially without the assistance of a calculator.

Are you sure you are a FORENSIC ACCOUNTANT who commands a much higher hourly rate than others in your profession? ( Accountants usually do not make such errors but lawyers sometimes do.)

I think you and John Q. Public should stop putting everything I say under the microscope. The microsope can obviously bite back.

At least your friend John Q. Public has been apologizing, admitting mistakes and failed memory. Are you going to apologize or hide?

Let us see if you can be a man like John Q. Public and admit your mistake.

Anonymous One,
The revenue agent issue was NOT brought up by ME. It was brought up by others and I simply do not believe the City of Naperville even has revenue agents. In my belief it is a rumor being spread on this blog site.

At least we both agree about the use of food tickets in lieu of cash will bring better and more effective controls.

Hey everyone, it's our favorite blogger's 65th birthday today.

Everyone wish him a Happy Birthday!

Anon ONE –

The city council has in the past recommended to The Exchange Club that they sell tickets for food and beverages at Ribfest and they have stated that this wouldn’t be a workable option. This was in the same April 10, 2009 Herald article I referenced above.

I don’t think I really buy the Exchange Club’s reasoning and I think a ticket system could be worked out. There would be many benefits to a ticket system: simplified tax collections (one source as opposed to many), additional revenue for the many tickets which would inevitably go unused, and the possibility of credit card/debit transactions for tickets. This would negate many of the temptations and problems which are inevitably linked to large amounts of cash.

T.B.

Daily Herald – April 10, 2009

[this is only about ½ of the article]

Another issue has been the collection of city and state taxes from Ribfest vendors. Five vendors still have not paid taxes they owe the city.

Officials previously suggested implementing a food ticket system like the Taste of Chicago to better track sales.

But Bruce Erickson, one of the founders of Ribfest, said there would be too much money changing hands to use volunteers to sell food tickets and it would be an expensive undertaking. It also would add to congestion in the park by creating extra lines.

[Ribfest Chairman Dave] Harrington suggested requiring vendors to pay the city taxes they owe before leaving the park on the final day of the event.

Another possibility suggested by Councilman Richard Furstenau would be to hold a certain amount of money from each vendor in escrow and settle up at the end of the event.

Councilman Doug Krause said the club also could collect the tax immediately when it sells rib meat to the vendors.

Councilmen Joe Dunn and Kenn Miller both expressed concern about the city micromanaging the event.

"We don't want any unwanted consequences of what this council may do and ruin the golden goose here," Miller said.

The city, park district and Exchange Club will continue to meet and return to the council with updated recommendations in May

TB, thanks for the info. In the article it said that Doug Krause said the club could collect the tax immediately when they sell the meat to the vendors. I'm assuming this means that all meat cooked has a USDA cert and from a controlled source - and must be purchased from the Exchange club?

If true, it means that the club knows exactly how much meat is sold to each vendor, i.e.500 slabs of ribs, 500 chicken breasts etc. Based on knowing this number and what the vendor charges, the club could come up with a reasonable amount of money the vendor "should" have taken in. The end result is the vendor buys 500 slabs, sells them for $15 ea ($7500) if they don't show leftovers the club has a reasonable estimate that they should collect tax on the $7500?

The only other question would be how labor is accounted for in the $15 cost. If the vendor claims their costs are $10 per slab (cogs, labor, materials, etc.) does this reduce the amount of possible tax?

the vendors settled up with the city the final night of the ribfest, in a secure area. the five vendors that owed city taxes last year owed a total of $300. if the vendors did not settle the city tax they were not allowed back this year.

The city is not responsible or allowed to collect the 7.25% from the vendors. That is state domain. It is responsible for collecting the 1% cultural tax from these vendors.

By going to the food ticket method, the city can help the state monitor the 7.25% that is due the state. I believe this 7.25% is escaping as there are no state revenue agents monitoring the situation. 1% additional tax or an amount equal to the cultural tax is sent from the state to the city each month after it is collected on the 20th of each month for the prior month from the retailers. Thus the city should have a vested interest in making sure not only the city tax is collected but the state tax which is partially theirs.

And no one has yet disclosed if the 1.5% downtown parking garage tax is being imposed on these vendors. In these 4 days, they use these downtown garages more than the downtown retailers who pay the 1.5% all year long. So these vendors should pay this tax for the 4 days they are operating in Naperville. In essence they would only be paying their pro rata shares for 4 days of use which is more than fair.

With attendance down more than half in one year, there should be plenty of room for a ticket booth or two. The price for the rides are paid for at a central location that dispurses tickets. The pig vendors should also have a central location.

At that point the central location selling tickets can handle the tax and dispurse 7.25% to the state, 1% to the city for cultural tax and 1.5% to the city again for use of the parking garages. The state will turn 1% of the 7.25% to the city as it always does....no worries here. The city's cut is 3.50% of the 9.75% of the sales collected for those counting beans with me.

If 5 vendors are running away from a 1% city tax, one can only wonder how many are running away from the 7.25% state sales tax where no one is monitoring. My guess is better than 90% are escaping the state tax and stuffing the money in their mattresses until they need to spend it for personal expenses where it can never be traced.

It does not seem to me that City Officials or Exchange Club Executives understand the tax process or how to collect tax or make sure it is collected.

If 255,000 attendees came last year to the PigFest and each person spent an average of 45 dollars that is $11,475,000 in revenue. At the full sales tax rate of 9.75%(city and state), that is $1,118,812.5 in sales tax dollars.

If I was to take a calculated guess, I would say the $118,812.5 in sales tax is paid while the ONE MILLION is stuffed in the vendors' mattresses.

The only way we will ever find out how much is stuffed in mattresses is for food tickets to be sold which would enable the City of Naperville to step up to the plate and make sure every penny owed the city and state is collected.

Let us not forget that one, just one Israeli vendor stuffed a million dollars and sheikels in her mattress before her daughter bought her a new one and threw out the old one not knowing her Mom had it stuffed to the hilt with dough. The 2 month search continues for the mattress. Three landfills have been partially dug up so far in Israel to no avail.

I wondor how many millions of our tax dollars are in pig vendor mattresses as a result of the possible incompetence of City of Naperville and Exchange Club Officials.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Moderator Chris,

Since the Daily Herald did an article and almost no one reads that newspaper in town, I would like to see the Naperville Sun do an article and try to get some answers for the readers and residents of Naperville. A possible ONE MILLION could be unaccounted for in this PigFest Fiasco. If you could pass this story to one of the editors of the Sun, I would appreciate it very much. You never know what could happen, if Sun Reporters started asking some pointed questions. The whole issue hopefully could be resolved by next year. And I am sure the residents would be grateful to the Naperville Sun for putting 1 million dollars in city and state coffers instead of pig vendor mattresses.

The fireworks were only $10K? I'm not being sarcastic, that's a pretty good deal.

A lot of people are complaining about police overtime, but they are lumping park district police in to this as well.

Just so everyone is aware, very few, if any, park district police officers get overtime by working ribfest. All park district police officers are part-time and earning literally a fraction of what the city police are earning.

Chris -

I believe The Sun did, in fact, report the info I posted from the Herald. I don't read the Herald on a regular basis, but recalled this info from (I believe) The Sun. I just couldn't seem to find it on The Sun's web site, but found it through a Google search in the Herald.

Keep up the good work.

T.B.

If anonymous would volunteer, plus recruit additional volunteers, maybe the Exchange Club could incorporate some of his suggestions. It takes additional bodies in the park to man these areas, plus additional volunteers to collect and count the additional monies coming into the park. These are good people trying to do some good for the city. Make yourself useful and get involved!!

Volunteer 49,

I think volunteers are not the problem. The PigFest had attendance decline from 255,000 to 127,000 with no reduction in volunteers or Police OT.

A simple reallocation of a few volunteers is needed to sell food tickets.

United Way did not have a decline in contributions this year. The PigFest is expected to have revenue declines of greater than 50% and very low profits this year to give to charity since overhead was not reduced.

I would never volunteer to work for an inefficient charity that gives a tiny portion of its proceeds to charity. A charity that feels a need to have millions of dollars in cash and investments while the hungry, needy and abused suffer.

I think the PigFest is beyond repair and should be cancelled. The Exchange Club should model itself against more successful charities like United Way that had no significant decline this year and provide a much larger percentage of their proceeds to charity.

I think that the massive decline in attendance in one year of over 50% was a message to the PigFest by residents and non-residents that they are no longer going to support this failed charity model. Every 4 day holiday usually has one day of rain so this massive decline can not be blamed on a half a day of rain. Other than this half a day of rain, the weather was almost perfect.

I don't get paid to be a Citizen Investigative Journalist for the Naperville Sun. I volunteer my services. I even paid to enter the PigFest twice so I can report my first hand observations. I saw tons of volunteers working very hard....more volunteers than needed.

By writing here, I am helping the PigFest help itself and help the taxpayers at the same time instead of abusing its volunteers and taxpayers.

I have pointed out a potential million missing dollars in sales tax revenue. I have pointed out that the police are paid 100,000 in OT in what I consider an inappropriate and deceitful misallocation of taxpayer funds. I have some expertise in such matters and I am providing my advice free of charge.....this is volunteerism.

When I was younger, I volunteered to pick up garabage after many charity events just like the superb young kids do today for the Exchange Club. I found time despite working 30 hours a week washing dishes in my university cafetaria for 6 years while working on my degrees. At this point of my life I feel I can be a productive citizen volunteering in different ways. My knowledge is more valuable than my hands picking up garbage pigs throw on the lawn instead of in the numerous garbage containers provided. I will never volunteer to pick up after pigs.

The PigFest should be throwing every pig who does not know how to use a garbage can out of the park immediately. What are the police doing that we pay 100k in OT to? Why are they not ticketing the pigs? By not doing their duties, they are making the volunteers work very hard while they do nothing but collect OT at taxpayer expense. Not one single arrest was made at the PigFest this year so the least the police could have been doing is demanding the pig eaters use garbage cans that were EVERYWHERE!

Anyway, I have given the Exchange Club some free advice. They can take it or leave it. They can turn their operation around or they can let it go to the sewar. It is their choice. If they continue on their destructive path and we have another 50% decline, they will be at 25% of last years revenue intake in a matter of 2 years.

You can not force people to listen to you. People usually don't listen. I warned before the 50% decline numerous times this PigFest was a mess and a disaster in the making. The numbers are now bearing it out.

I warned that the pension system is also a mess. When the numbers come out in September residents will understand how messy this pension system is. Officials don't usually heed warnings. They usually only take corrective action when it is too late. I can't be blamed for that.

I made suggestions of how the pension system can be improved. No one agrees with ME and I only have ONE VOTE. So there is very little I can do except bite the bullet and pay my outrageous taxes. Thankfully, all my mortgages are fully paid and I can afford my ridiculous real estate tax bills. Maybe when residents are faced with foreclosure they will join me in larger numbers next April 15 in the Tax Revolt Demonstration and we can get a few thousand residents out and send a louder message to City Hall.

I am a volunteer member of this Tax Revolt Organization and we hope to make it a TaxFest one day that will draw thousands. But it is really a true battle to wake up the sleepy Naperville Taxpayer without help from the Naperville Sun.

Anonymous, what is your deal with the police overtime?

Having a police presence is a preventative measure. They're not there to hand out tickets for littering, they're there to stop fights, riots, drunken brawls, and maintain the peace in a crowded park of tens of thousands. You can't predict the turnout, you have to prepare for the worst and that is why the number of police will remain constant regardless if 10,000 show up or 40,000 show up on any given day.

How do you know there were no arrests made? There were a number of people ejected from the park, charges were filed for trespassers, lost children reunited with their parents, and several people treated with first aid. Simply because you yourself didn't see someone hauled off in handcuffs doesn't mean that the police weren't doing anything.

You talk a big game but in the end, you don't know the first thing about what you're ranting against! So you walked around the park after hours for a bit, you're not an endless fountain of ribfest knowledge. You're just another spoiled Naperville resident with nothing better to do than complain about a very successful event.

Suburban Guy,

1. I believe it was reported in the Naperville Sun that no one was arrested this year at the PigFest. My knowledge extends beyond my personal observation.

2. I am a NAPERVILLE taxpayer and have an issue paying $100,000 for Police OT during a private charity event especially from a cultural tax sales tax fund that was not intended for this purpose.

3. If you have a massive pouring of rain, you can predict turnout will be lower for that day, and some of the police should have been sent home to save taxpayers unnecessary OT expense. But the police were determined to get their 100k and most likely got it.

4.As far as a successful event, I would respectfully disagree with you. It was down over 50% from last year in attendence. That in my spoiled opinion is a FAILURE....a MASSIVE FAILURE.

By Suburban Guy on July 10, 2009 4:09 PM
Anonymous, what is your deal with the police overtime?

You can't predict the turnout, you have to prepare for the worst and that is why the number of police will remain constant regardless if 10,000 show up or 40,000 show up on any given day.

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BTW, I am a suburban guy too.

I just got back from my suburban pool. Somehow, they do a very good job of predicting turnout based on weather reports. If the weather is about 70 degrees, they know turn-out will be low and only 4 life guards man the pool on a rotational basis each doing 15 minutes. When it is about 70 degrees the pool is lucky to have 100 show up all day.

Now when the temperature is over 90 degrees they man 3 stations and use about 10 lifeguards. Usually about 450-500 show up when the temperature exceeds 90 degrees.

Of course my subdivision pool is a private enterprise and watches the bottom line.

I guess when it comes to the City of Naperville they are a public enterprise which apparently feels there is no need to review the weather report and adjust accordingly. Why should they bother? The taxpayers will pay the bill no matter what it is, and let our city employees make some extra money, the feeling must be. We have 100k budgeted for police OT so let us use it. Why not? That is the attitude of the city of Naperville. That is why we had an 11.5 million budget deficit. That is why we have a 61.4 million pension deficit.

The problem with the way you want to run government, Suburban Guy, is it simply does not work. It backfires on those trying to milk the system.

California employees know what I am talking about. Their work week has been cut from 5 days to 4 days and their salaries cut 20%. Some now go to food pantries to help make ends meet. At one time OT, was routine just like in Naperville.

Wanting the number of police to remain constant regardless of conditions is insanity. Nurses are sent home when patient counts are low. Police need to be sent home when they are not needed.

The other day I counted 17 police officers and one police dog on the intersection of Chicago Ave and Washington. In my spoiled opinion that was INSANITY. A waste of money. It seems like every police officer who works in a school is thrown on that intersection whether he or she is needed or not.

I just think we are doing something wrong in this town and adjustments need to be made before it is too late.

Anonymous,

I can tell you, from an extremely reliable source, that police action was taken against several people at the park. A custodial arrest on the spot (the only type of arrest that would be reported in the paper) is not the only option that the police have in dealing with people. I'll put this issue to rest now, because I feel your point arguing the cost of the police presence is more valid than arguing what the police actually did.

Sending lifeguards home when a pool isn't crowded is not even in the same realm as sending an officer home. There are union rules and regulations that specify a minimum number of hours that will be worked on a detail, as well as "minimum staffing levels". Naperville Police overtime has been curtailed in recent years compared to years in the past. Furthermore, it is an officer safety issue when determining how many officers to have at a given location. You do not see 3-5 officers standing around in a group because they like to waste taxpayer money and goof around, it is because 5 officers dealing with someone is much more effective and much more safe than 1 officer dealing with someone. Strength in numbers, you may think it's a ridiculous excuse but it's precisely the reason why officers are in groups and out in large number. If there are 30,000 people in the park and 30 officers total working the event, that is 1 officer per every thousand people. I don't care if the crowds weren't as dangerous or rowdy as the taste of chicago, no matter how you cut it those aren't good odds from an officer safety standpoint.

Since all the normal patrol beats still need to be covered, any additional officers at the ribfest will be paid on overtime. The park district police are not paid on overtime because they're all part-time and working this event is just part of their routine anyways - very few park district police officers work enough hours at ribfest to earn overtime. The hourly pay rate difference between city officers and park officers is so enormous it's not even worth comparing. Naperville Police are expensive, but they're also a very highly trained, highly skilled, highly equipped police force. This stuff doesn't come cheap - what did you expect after dozens of years of approving referendums, tax hikes, and what not? You pay a premium to live in Naperville, and part of that premium is for a very well run and organized police department. So yes, it bothers me that many people have no problem shelling out for their million dollar houses in the ritziest part of Naperville, but then balk at the idea of paying the professional officers that serve their community the overtime they earn from working one of the largest events in the county.

Police OT is expensive, there's no way around it, and I wish I could say there were an easy way to solve it but there isn't. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. If you want staffing levels cut to a level so low that officers will feel their safety is being threatened, they will no longer put themselves in situations that could be dangerous to them. This is the problem that Chicago is facing. I could go on and on about this but all you see is the bottom line.

The Taxes Lady is a force of one... She has underline issues with everything and has been blogging about how the police and the fire department are suppose to operate. It is amusing to say the least, maybe she should apply to be the police Chief when the opening presents itself. Remember, she/he/it is blogging with as many as 100 alias so she maybe having conversations with herself and they can become very repetitive. Just sit back and watch as the mental health issues unfolded right in front of your eyes.

Hello,

First of all, IMHO, your organization does a wonderful job with Ribfest. Fortunately, my friends and family have a terrific time every year! If anyone gives you a hard time or complains about this or that, tell them to go Taste of Chicago or Lisle fest instead. I have colleagues who live near Chicago and come to Ribfest, so there you go. BTW, we've actually attended Lisle fest too, but you guys win hands down! But it's probably a good thing that these fests are scheduled on the same weekend so folks have choices on where to spend their time and money.

OK, now for some quick and dirty (QAD) feedback, since this is a charity event and "It's About Kids!" would it be too much to insist that the tattoo laden gang members who walk around like they own the place to wear a t-shirt to cover them up? And if they don't have a t-shirt with them, then escort them to the merchandise tent to buy one. Otherwise, thanks for coming, you don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. Oh yeah, while your at it and so you don't get sued for discrimination, make it a rule that shirts must be worn at all times while on the grounds. Just tell the topless beer gut fellas that they're distracting from the talent on the stage. You know... kinda like a car wreck.

One thing to be aware of though, as long as we're on the subject of the merchandise tent, you might consider a little adult supervision. I walked up to the merchandise tent near the Miller Lite stage a couple of times, but I must have been invisible since the "volunteer" teenagers didn't even notice me or ask if I was interested in purchasing a souvenir. I think that there were at least 7-8 young volunteers all talking, texting and having a good ol' time together. Well, at least they can put on their college applications that they performed valuable community service and volunteered their time in their communities over their 4th of July weekend.

Coming back to what a great job you do, thanks for an informative Ribfest website too (although you might want to have a "breaking news" section so you can inform the public if the fireworks are on schedule and other time sensitive info). It's just a thought. Other than that, it's just fine. Also, keep the country music theme for a day and try to keep the White Sox as a sponsor (a top notch organization and a great outfit to be affiliated with). Oh yeah, and the Titanic exhibit was nice, I just hope that I don't get spammed by the sponsor.

Regarding the lower than expected attendance, it's down because of the economy and the suspect weather this year. That's it, plain and simple.

Lastly, some other musical group suggestions... Styx, Journey, Blues Traveler, Collective Soul, you guys do a pretty good job in this department, so keep up the good work (KUTGW).

BTW, keep charging admission, that makes folks who come actually want to be there.

Regards,
Mike Sierra

I think everyone is missing the point. Whether PigFest is good or bad is not the POINT.

The point is PigFest is a private event. It should be hiring PRIVATE SECURITY and not using PUBLIC SECURITY at taxpayer expense.

If as many are saying all Park District Police are part time and paid much much less than Naperville Police, why is the PigFest not hiring Park District Police. I don't doubt that NPD officers are better trained. But we are not talking about investigating a murder scene or tracking a fugitive. We are simply looking for cops to keep law and order at a peaceful pleasurable event.

The fact no one was even arrested means it is not a violent event. While the experts blogging here may know that Park District police are not as heavily trained as NPD police, most people would not know that. Most people are not messing around with any police officer carrying a gun no matter what jurisidiction he or she is from.

Any time there is a situation that 30 or 50 Park District Police can not handle, they could call the NPD for assistance at public expense. I have no objection.

Most bloggers seem to think you need a large police presence for deterrence reasons. Well, than why not have 5 Park District Police Officers making 15-20 dollars an hour, instead of one senior NPD officer making 75-100 dollars? Who would be more effective? One NPD officer or 5 PD officers for crowd observation and control. I have little doubt that 5 PD officers can handle a drunk better than one NDP officer. Most bloggers have admitted that there is strength in numbers and I could not agree more.

And of course, the PigFest should be paying the PD police from their own money and not taxpayer money. Since Knoll Park is under the jurisdiction of the Park District Police and not the Naperville Police, this is yet another reason to use PD police.

Unlike others, I have found the PD police to be very qualified. I have found them to be extremely polite and courteous. They probably need the extra hours more than the NPD police. Their extra hours are straight part-time as compared to the extra hours of the NPD which are always OT and go to the highest seniority officers who just by conincidence are the most highly paid.

If the Exchange Club was not given 100k of taxpayer money in which appears to be a less than ethical transaction to pay for the police OT, they would proably watch their dollars and cents a little better and have more to contribute to the poor, needy and abused.

If we had PD police working this event instead of ND police, we would have an extra 80k to put in the pockets of the abused. After all that is the purpose of this PigFest! Why is everyone here trying to defeat the good purpose of this PigFest by being irresponsible and wasteful???

Apparently, the message has gotten around through this blog site and other forums, that the PigFest is abusive of taxpayer money. The taxpayers have responded by not showing up. Over 50% decline in attendance over a 4 day period with only rain for a half a day. Last year to the best of my recollection we also had a half a day of rain. So we are talkng apples and apples here. Not apples and oranges. Allmost any 4-day period in the summer has a half a day of rain or one day of rain. If you can't think back to last year, think back to the last 2 months and let me know which 4 day period did not have a rain pour. Let us not make excuses for the PigFest, please. It is not being run by children.

Other fests were down 10% to 20%. But not one fest other than the PigFest was down OVER 50% in attendance and revenues. The report card is in. You can blab all you want to try to justify your F. But your grade was an F and it is in writing. There is no school or college in the country that will even give you a D for 50%. We are talking about a definite F- as far as the performance and results of the PigFest!

Sorry folks, but you need to accept the responsibility of the reality and swallow the pill sometimes. You can not all be right when the FACTS, CIRCUMSTANCES and REPORT CARD indicate you are all wrong. Stop being in denial. An F- is an F- no matter how you slice and dice it. Let us accept the F- and work towards trying to improve towards a C next year and possibly an A+ 2 years from now. To pretend everything is perfect means a guaranteed F- next year. Is that what you all want for PIGFEST?

Successful lift-off
Eyes to the Skies draws crowds

July 10, 2009

By WENDY FOSTER For The Lisle Sun
Event planners could hardly be happier.

Lisle's Eyes to the Skies Festival on July 1-5 "was, in a word, spectacular," said David Van Kampen, chairman of the planning committee. Coming into Friday night of the event, he said, "we had one of the biggest crowds in years."

Their winning streak was slightly dampened by rain on Independence Day, which kept crowds away for much of the afternoon. However, it was a temporary setback and not enough to have much of an adverse affect on the event. Numbers are still being tallied, but attendance was thought to be high, overall, and sales of food were brisk.

Van Kampen credits much of the success of this year's Eyes to the Skies to the economy.

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Apparently our neighboring city had much success with their festival this year and did not make excuses. They actually credited substantially increased attendance especially on Thursday and Friday compared to last year to the poor economy. Since people could not afford to leave town, they went to their Eyes of the Skies Festival in greater numbers according to Festival Organizers.

Weather hurt them on the 4th of July just like it hurt PigFest Organziers, but they still had one of the biggest overall crowds in years. They were certainly not down 50.19% as in the Naperville PigFest. All indications are they were up over last year.

As I said, PigFest this year was an F- performance. Let us not use the weather and economy as an excuse. I believe the weather and economy in nearby Lisle are similar if not identical to the Naperville economy.

Enough said. The proof is in the pudding.

PigFest Organizers and supporters can continue to lie to themselves and be in denial or they can make the necessary adjustments to make improvements. The first adjustment they can make is to stop using taxpayer money to pay for unnecessary police OT....this in my opinion contributed substantially to the decline in attendance along with many many other factors that I have enumerated in previous posts over the last year. It is their choice if they want to listen or continue down the slippery slope.

Most people do not take the time to write as I do. They act by boycotting. They speak with their feet. They send a message by zipping their wallets and purses closed. While I am one lonely Citizen Investigative Journalist, I believe I may have spoken for 128,000 of former attendees who boycotted the PigFest Extravaganza this year. Imagine almost as many people as live in the City of Naperville chose to boycott the PigFest this year. And you guys are reaping praise on organizers for a "job well done." Do you reap praise on your kids when they show you a report card with F- on every line?

I am sorry to have to say this, but many of the bloggers on this blog site appear to have extremely loose bearings.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

PS. I am the former Anonymous. I just felt it was time for a new handle and one I liked came to my mind. I will try to hold on as long as I can but once I get bored of it expect me to change it as I have done frequently in the past. I will try to announce my handle changes since there are still a few like T.B. who can not figure my very obvious writing style after nearly 3 years of blogging on this site.

While I am one lonely Citizen Investigative Journalist, I believe I may have spoken for 128,000 of former attendees who boycotted the PigFest Extravaganza this year. Imagine almost as many people as live in the City of Naperville chose to boycott the PigFest this year
________________________________________________________________

The only thing that you got right in that repetitive paragraph is that YOU are one lonely Citizen Investigative Journalist. I see the cops are not taking your advice on staffing for the downtown or Ribfest. Maybe next year they will look for answers and I am sure that the Anonymous blogger with 100 personalities is who they are going to take advice from.

I also remember you were not going to attend the RIBFEST, wow that changed not once but twice this year. Thanks for your money.

By mike sierra on July 11, 2009 11:06 AM
Hello,

First of all, IMHO, your organization does a wonderful job with Ribfest. If anyone gives you a hard time or complains about this or that, tell them to go Taste of Chicago or Lisle Fest instead. I have colleagues who live near Chicago and come to Ribfest, so there you go. BTW, we've actually attended Lisle Fest too, but you guys win hands down! But it's probably a good thing that these fests are scheduled on the same weekend so folks have choices on where to spend their time and money.

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Mike Sierra,

The people did what you suggested. They did exactly as you said. They had a choice and exercised their CHOICE.

How can you say the PigFest won hands down when it showed a decline of 50.19% while the Lisle Fest was apparently up in attendance?

Maybe it is not such a good idea that these fests are scheduled on the same weekend as the PigFest had its rear end kicked in and pretty badly may I add.

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RibFest 2010,

Your welcome for my 86 dollars, RibFest 2010. Please make sure it gets to the needy and abused where it was meant to go and not your coffers or police OT. Last time I checked you were hoarding over a million dollars in your bank accounts and investments while those who you pretend to be helping are SUFFERING.

Please explain why to the 128,000 who chose to boycott your PIGFEST this year. With the City of Naperville and Park District spoon feeding you on an annual basis, there is no need to hoard as much cash as you are hoarding. It is utterly ridiculous. It is time for you guys to come out of your closets and explain what you are doing with all that money? Why are you saving all this money?

That information of your money in bank accounts and investments was not posted by me. It was posted by EXPERIENCED right on this blog site. Was he feeding us untrue information?

I paid the cover charge so I can have 1st hand knowledge that no one can refute. I came so I can be a Citizen Investigative Journalist after boycotting for 6 consecutive years. I would never go to an event where less than 25% of my proceeds go to a true charity to be charitable. I went there to be an INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER. Why don't you review the United Way and see how they are able to get over 75% of their proceeds to charity year after year....sometimes over 90% after expenses?

All I am saying is it is time to make adjustments and improvements and to stop making excuses.

Last year the Lisle Eyes of the Skies filed for bankruptcy.....something probably most people don't know. They hit rock bottom. This year they got their act together and improved their numbers despite a bad economy and a half a day of rain.

Do you think you are immune from following in the the Eyes of the Skies foot paths? Another 50% decline and you will be at 25% of last year. I guess you won't need to file for bankrupcty since you have over a million dollars in saving....my error. I apologize!

Taste of Chicago attendance down 6 percent

Published: July 6, 2009 at 10:31 AM

CHICAGO, July 6 (UPI) -- A struggling economy and several days of rain put a damper on this year's Taste of Chicago festival, with attendance down 6 percent, officials said.

Some 3.35 million people attended this year's 10-day event at the city's Grant Park, which wrapped up Sunday, The Chicago Tribune reported.

Despite the drop-off, city officials were generally pleased with the turnout, the Mayor's Office of Special Events spokeswoman Cindy Gatziolis told the newspaper. She said roughly 1 million people came to the Taste's fireworks show, but rain on July 4 kept crowds lower than normal.

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Taste of Chicago was down to 3.35 million attendence from last years record of over 3.5 million. Officials blamed it on the economy and some rain.

I guess if the Taste of Chicago blames a 6% decline on the economy and rain, can Exchange Club officials seriously blame the same economy and rain for a 50.19% decline. I even suspect the economy in Naperville is a little healthier than the economy in Chicago.

Any reasonable person has to conclude there were other factors that contributed to the horrendous decline at Naperville's PigFest this year. Sponsors of the Exchange Club have to come out of their denial mode and see why over half of last years PigFest attendees decided to boycott this year.

While I am no expert on this matter, I suspect attendees are not happy with many things about PigFest.

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Here are just a few:

1. That this charity gives a very small percentage of its proceeds to the needy, poor and abused.

2. That organizers are hoarding money rather than dispursing it to the needy compared to most charities.

3. That huge sales tax revenue is being skimmed by the PigFest vendors and hid in their mattresses....by my estimate over 1 million dollars a year is being skimmed from Naperville residents in both city and state sales tax. PigFest organizers refuse to institute a ticket system like in Chicago that would cure and halt this MASSIVE SKIMMING of taxpayer funds.

4. That this PigFest abuses the residents by using public services at taxpayer expense instead of paying for its own private services using its own funds.

5. That the PigFest chooses to pay one senior Naperville Police Officer 75 to 100 dollars in OT per hour, instead of hiring 5 very highly qualified Park District Police Officers for this same wage, has to be outraging many attendees.

6. As a volunteer, I would be outraged to know I am donating my time and services, while my police department is not donating their time and services for a charity event.

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Parking and busing have not changed from last year and are adequate. The food remains excellent. The PigFest remains pleasant and safe.

The economy and rain undoubtedly took 6% from last years numbers....this is beyond the control of PigFest organizers. But the additional 44% decline in attendence in my humble opinion was a boycott againt the Exchange Club due to its improper policies and practices.

You folks on this blog site should join me and give the Exchange Club some tough love instead of patting it on the back for a job poorly done.

Either the Exchange Club has to look in the mirror and correct its mistakes or suffer another 50% or greater decline in attendence next year.

As a Citizen Investigative Journalist volunteering my services, I am trying to critique this disastrous PigFest in order to help it get back on track. What I see is a bunch of Establishment Folks on this blog site who will defend its potential inefficiencies and possible incompetence to the last breath.

I almost feel like I live in Stepford Wives Town, USA where all dissenters were roboted and forced to conform. For the first time in my life, I seem to understand why the Naperville Sun would never dare to have an Investigative Reporter review the way the Establishment runs this town.....even if they had the budget for one which they once did when newspapers had strong financial statements.

So far the only person who has ever been able to challenge the Establishment successfully is the Napergate Man.....and we all know his story way too well! No need to repeat it.

We really need to start limiting internet access to patients of psychiatric wards, or at least require them to take their meds before playing online.

Had a blast at Ribfest, can't wait for next year!

By Citizen Investigative Psychologist on July 12, 2009 11:01 AM
We really need to start limiting internet access to patients of psychiatric wards, or at least require them to take their meds before playing online.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

As you may know I spent many weeks as a Citizen Investigative Journalist reviewing the Napergate History and the Napergate Man in the Naperville Public Library. Ironically, the approach of the Establishment at the time was the same as it is today.

Obviously, there was an attempt to paint him as a crazy man, loose cannon, psychiatric patient and anything you can think of. He had a strong message that the Establishment could not refute or tolerate, therefore they chose the path of attacking him as a way of discrediting him.

In the end the Establishment had 22 out of 23 Judges rule against them in a little over a decade. The only Judge who ruled against the Napergate Man was part of a 2-1 verdict by the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals in a Civil Rights decision. Thus his vote ended up carrying no weight and in essence meaningless. The Establishment at the time ended up eating crow and taking it up the wazoooo.

On this blog site, I am constantly attacked for presenting facts and evidence. I present articles from the reputable Lisle Sun and Chicago Tribune showing the economy and rain had an impact of only 6% or less on this years 4th of July fests.

I am questioning the cause of the 44% "other" decline in attendence the PigFest experienced and I am told to take my medication...lol...

You Establishment Folks who dominate this blog site and hypocritically change your handles daily, really need to look in the mirror and do some self-evaluation followed by some self-flogging to extricate the demons that possess you. I don't even think a psychologist or medication can help you.

If you did not learn one single thing from the Napergate Trials about your arrogance, cockiness and egos, I really do believe you are beyond hope.

I would agree that the Moderator needs to limit access on this web site to those who attack the messenger and not the message. Especially for those who do not heed his advice. For those who don't heed his demands. For those who do not listen to anything he says.

The Moderator has indicated he is dealing with a bunch of kindergarten kids on this blog site. You, CIP, confirmed his belief. You proved him 100% RIGHT.

Need I remind you that the Moderator singled me out as an intelligent blogger. Obviously, the Moderator is not part of the Establishment Gang. Neither were those 22 DuPage, State and Federal Judges who thought the Establishment had some seriously loose screws and bearings upstairs.

Enough said for now!

Didn't Chris also ask you to stop waving around the fact that (a long time ago) he said you were intelligent like you're some kind of boy scout who just got his first merit badge? It's really just sad now.

Citizen Investigative Journalist,

I was not trying to say that the Naperville Police are anymore qualified than the Park district police, all police officers in the state of Illinois receive the same state-mandated training (whether it's city, park district, college, or any other type of department), but the virtue of their jurisdictions and the types of activity they handle will change their experience levels accordingly, and it only makes sense to pay the Naperville police more money for what they do than what the park district police do, the same way a Chicago cop should make more money than a cop somewhere in rural Will county.

The reason why Naperville Police are hired to work at the Ribfest when it takes place on Park District jurisdiction is because the Park District police only has about 12-15 police officers total, most of whom work other full time jobs. So yes, it would be economically logical to hire 40 park district officers for the price of 5-10 Naperville officers, but there simply aren't enough Park District police to handle the event.

You bring up a very good point with the 50% drop in attendance to Ribfest versus other local events, I'm sure it will be a wake up call to the Exchange Club that they need to seriously re-evaluate their event and make changes that address valid concerns while at the same time cutting costs in this economy and maintaining their charitable status.

For starters why don't you reveal your former identity so I can deal with you in a proper fashion.

I am amazed at your hypocrisy and your gall to come on here using a new handle without disclosure. How shameful of bloggers like you who criticise others for using more than one handle and than do the same to pretend there is more than one person expressing those nonsensical views that always amount to nothing but personal attacks.

The bottom line is Chris said I am intelligent but never said you were intelligent. That is a fact!

If I have to use something Chris said to prove you wrong, I will. That is the only reason I brought it up....not to brag. I am confident in myself unlike yourself who needs to put down others because he can not debate their views. I am sure most people feel Chris is got more credibility than you and thus his statement carries more weight than yours.

Why don't you use your brain if you have one to refute my message if you don't like it or disagree with it. I am tired of wrestling you guys in the mud. Chris said personal attacks have no place on this blog site and all you are doing is engaging in personal attacks.

Since you respect Chris so much and obviously hear what he is saying, why don't you listen to him. Even if you have been relegated to Kindergarten, there is no reason you can't try to be obedient. Try to play with your blocks and draw with your crayons. Sooner or later we have to find a way to get you out of Kindergarten....you can't stay 5 forever....

By Suburban Guy on July 12, 2009 10:28 PM
Citizen Investigative Journalist,

You bring up a very good point with the 50% drop in attendance to Ribfest versus other local events, I'm sure it will be a wake up call to the Exchange Club that they need to seriously re-evaluate their event and make changes that address valid concerns while at the same time cutting costs in this economy and maintaining their charitable status.

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Thank you for your well thought out post and conclusions. The 50% drop in attendence is a number provided by the Exchange Club and is disturbing. Most businesses who are failing or about to fail blame the economy.

I remember when that Tessa or whatever Italian Restaurant on Jefferson owned by Jimmy's was failing he blamed it on world events such as the Afghanistan War. In the end his restaurant failed because he was selling microwaved food for 5 Star Hotel prices. Bloggers came on and stated the food was below par. If he would have listened, a new qualified chef from Italy may have saved his 4 million dollar investment. Later on he stated the Iraq War was also hurting his business.

We will see if Exchange Club will make changes or pretend the economy was the cause of their 50% decline while most fests were barely impacted.

As far as police, if the Exchange Club wants to watch its costs, it can not continue to pay OT to Naperville Police Officers at rates of 75-100 dollars per hour. I agree there are not enough Park District Police Officers. But there is no reason why all kinds of officers from other jurisdictions can't be hired and paid 25 dollars per hour straight time. Many police are looking for extra work and would not mind working for 20-25 bucks an hour. Basically, there presence is what is needed more than anything else for deterrent purposes. We are not looking for sharp shooters for this peaceful event like those who shot the pirates off the Somalia Coast.

If the PigFest is going to be successful, they need to cut costs as soon as possible. Personally, I think the 10 dollar cover charge is having a detrimental effect on this PigFest. It needs to be cut in half. Yes, if someone is coming, they will pay it. But they will remember it and not come again next year because of it. That is what I believe is happening. While at it, consideration should be given to reducing parkng from 10 to 5 dollars also. You should not have to pay 20 dollars for the RIGHT to buy a slab of pig ribs for 22 dollars. Let us be fair to the consumers many of whom don't even realize this is a charity event.

The LisleFest of the Skies did some research and reduced their cover charge after going bankrupt partially due to their higher cover charge last year. They were much more successful with a lower cover charge this year and reported increased attendence over last year.

People do not like cover charges. One of the reasons downtown Naperville bars are very successful is they do not have cover charge with one single exception. Downtown Naperville pretty much wiped out the nightclub district in the Oak Brook, Lombard and Downers Grove area. Those nightclubs were charging 5 and 10 dollars and downtown Naperville destroyed them. Pacific Club, Bamboo Club, North Beach, Olivers, and many other were forced to close their doors permanently as they never knew what hit them or failed to react to what hit them.

Recently, I visited a place called Galway in Hillside. Two years ago when I was there it was packed. It was literally empty on the weekend I visited. The owners asked me what I thought the problem was. I told them it was raising your cover charge from 5 dollars to 10 dollars on weekends in a depressed economy. I informed them that there were much nicer clubs in Naperville charging no cover charge so why would you expect people to come to your old and run down place if they have to pay 10 bucks.

Here is some free advice to the Exchange Club. Reduce your cover charge in half and your attendence will return back to 255,000 or more in 2 years. Of course your expenses including police OT have to be reduced to accomodate a lower cover charge. Smell the coffee! Check out what your competitors are doing. Stop being in DENIAL!

Sybil is at it again, though this time he/she/it thinks that he/she/it is now a journalist - which in the world of blogs is probably reasonable, but let's look at some of the contentions, shall we?

1. That this charity gives a very small percentage of its proceeds to the needy, poor and abused.
This is based on one financial statement. There is absolutely no evidence that the percentage is very small, simply that on the day that specific financial statement was released, money had not yet been dispersed. You keep repeating that it is not dispersed, as if that were a act, and not just your own contention. I do not know if this is the case or not, but having you repeat it as if it were fact is disingenuous at best. You have no proof that this is the case. Until you do, you're just repeating your own misunderstanding.

2. That organizers are hoarding money rather than dispursing it to the needy compared to most charities.
See above. You do not know if this is the case, all you know is that on the day the financial report was created, there was money in the account. You know nothing more than that, so stop repeating it as if it were fact.

3. That huge sales tax revenue is being skimmed by the PigFest vendors and hid in their mattresses....by my estimate over 1 million dollars a year is being skimmed from Naperville residents in both city and state sales tax. PigFest organizers refuse to institute a ticket system like in Chicago that would cure and halt this MASSIVE SKIMMING of taxpayer funds.
Your estimate is utterly meaningless, and runs contrary to the reports generated in the papers, by actual journalists. There is absolutely no evidence that large scale skimming is taking place at Ribfest. I don't think anyone would be surprised to learn that some IS taking place, but the $1 million figure is something that you made up, based on - well, who knows? Again, repeating your own estimate is worthless to the discussion.
By my estimate, less than .43 cents was skimmed from Naperville residents at this year's ribfest. Oddly, my estimate is exactly as valid as yours. Equally meaningless, too. You're simply making it up, based on what? Watching teardown?

4. That this PigFest abuses the residents by using public services at taxpayer expense instead of paying for its own private services using its own funds.
Which services are you on about here? The city of Naperville has determined that the payback of having Ribfest is town is worth using some Naperville services, and that the expenditures are worth it. You may well disagree, that's fair, and I am sure that others will also disagree. However, those elected to Council do not agree, and they get to make the decision. If you feel that they're wrong, there are numerous democratic processes available to you to have your voice heard. Everything from blog posts, like this one, to running for a seat on council.

5. That the PigFest chooses to pay one senior Naperville Police Officer 75 to 100 dollars in OT per hour, instead of hiring 5 very highly qualified Park District Police Officers for this same wage, has to be outraging many attendees.
This has already been discussed on this thread, there apparently enough Park District officers to handle Ribfest. For my part, while I think that paying the NPD overtime to keep Ribfest safe is an excess, and a waste of money - I think that if Ribfest is IN Naperville, it should be patrolled by members of the NPD as part of their jobs and part of their responsibilities - BUT, I want fully qualified, highly trained law enforcement members on site, and highly visible. If that means that they have to be paid overtime, I think that it is worth my tax dollars to keep Ribfest safe and secure. It's not outrageous, since I suspect - note that I am not insisting that it is fact, since I currently do not KNOW - that there aren't enough hours/officers to patrol Naperville's environs as they do on a daily basis AND patrol Ribfest in the numbers necessary for public safety. Assuming that is the case, I think that the payment of overtime is a valid one for this town to shoulder. To my way of thinking, Public Safety trumps your outraged tax argument, though I do wish they could find another way.

6. As a volunteer, I would be outraged to know I am donating my time and services, while my police department is not donating their time and services for a charity event.
Just because you're willing to do something, doesn't mean that others should be willing to do it, too. See how that works? Many, many people get paid to work at Ribfest. If someone WANTS to volunteer their time, for their own reasons, that's a public service that they're willing to take on, as an individual, it is not a requirement, no matter whether you think that it should be.

Part of why people pick at your arguments, Sybil, is that you repeated present conjecture and estimates as facts, when They. Are. Not.

By Citizen Investigative Journalist on July 13, 2009 12:57 AM

As far as police, if the Exchange Club wants to watch its costs, it can not continue to pay OT to Naperville Police Officers at rates of 75-100 dollars per hour. I agree there are not enough Park District Police Officers. But there is no reason why all kinds of officers from other jurisdictions can't be hired and paid 25 dollars per hour straight time.

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Just so we're absolutely clear here... The Naperville Police that work at the Ribfest are being hired privately to work the event - they are not performing a public service, they are working privately for the exchange club. The problem is, the Ribfest cannot dictate how much they will pay, because Naperville Police dictates how much they charge for an officer working a special outside detail privately.

Ribfest could indeed decide to not hire Naperville Police and instead hire private security for $20/hour, but these private security (even if they're off-duty cops from other towns) would not retain the same type of authority that an on-duty Naperville Police officer or Park District Police officer would retain while working the event. Having a fully functional police agency on duty is preferable to outside security or the Exchange Club would be pursuing other options.

The Naperville Police overtime rate is the same whether it's the Exchange club hiring the officers, or some other event taking place within the city. The police union dictates how much it will cost to hire a police officer for an outside detail.

GJC,

Once you admit you are Experienced who could not make that 50.19% calculation despite being a "Forensic Accountant," I will respond to you. Are you trying to reinvent yourself after I exposed your lack of credibility?

Once again all I see here is mostly hypocrites who change their handle from post to post to regain their lost reputations.

Sybil,
also currently known as... CIJ - I'm not the blogger known as: Experienced. I'm GJC.
And it's strange that you would care so much, either way.

Suburban Guy,

I am not sure I agree with you fully. Undoubtely, this transaction between the Naperville Police and the Exchange Club is complicated.

First, the City of Naperville is skimming 100,000 from the cultural sales tax and giving it to the Exchange Club to be used strictly for payment of Naperville Police OT. In my humble opinion this is an unethical transaction. Others have called it a sham transaction.

Secondly, I don't think these Naperville Police Officers are working privately for the Naperville Exchange Club. They are in uniform and under the command and control of Police Chief David Dial and not the Exchange Club.

Thirdly, the police union does not dictate how much it costs to hire Naperville Police officers for an outside detail. As a matter of fact, the Naperville Police Union and the City of Naperville will not allow Naperville Police officers to work privately, which further validates my claim that they are working publicly and not privately.

Many police departments and police unions will allow their police to freelance. Naperville is not one. Therefore, the Exchange Club must hire non-Naperville police officers if it wants to bring costs down.

The police union in Naperville is a very strong union. They work very hard for the Naperville Police at the expense of the Naperville Taxpayer. Naperville Police are one of the most highly paid police forces in the nation with possibly the best benefits. Despite a 21.16% annunal contribution from the taxpayers to the Naperivlle police based on their wages, we still have a 61.4 million pension deficit that should grow substantially this September when the official numbers are released.

The only solution for the PigFest is to use as many Park District Police as it can and to hire off duty cops from other towns who do not prohibit their cops from working private details. If a cop for Woodridge or Downers Grove puts in his 40 hours, the Exchange Club can still hire him to work for straight pay or even free lance pay which is usually less than straight pay. As you stated, Suburban Guy, all these cops are well trained by the same state agency and very highly qualified.

The PigFest event is relatively peaceful and no arrests were made this year according to both the Naperville Sun and Daily Herald. Even though the police at the PigFest do relatively little, it is their presense that serves as a deterrent to violence. We therefore need police but not necessarily Naperville Police. Just like the police union watches out for itself, we the Naperville taxpayers need to watch out for ourselves. We need to cut off the umbilical cord to this 100k police OT that comes from our cultural tax and not from the Exchange Club revenues.

CIJ,

It's entirely possible that if the Naperville Police union is as powerful as you say it is, that the city would REQUIRE the exchange club to use city police officers if they want to hold the event inside the city. Even though it takes place on park district property, the city actually runs it, and I'm guessing is partly due to why the Naperville Police get to stick their nose (and $100k OT bill) in.

By Suburban Guy on July 13, 2009 8:49 PM
CIJ,

It's entirely possible that if the Naperville Police union is as powerful as you say it is, that the city would REQUIRE the exchange club to use city police officers if they want to hold the event inside the city. Even though it takes place on park district property, the city actually runs it, and I'm guessing is partly due to why the Naperville Police get to stick their nose (and $100k OT bill) in.

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I think you may be right Suburban Guy. Not only is the Exchange Club probably pressured to use Naperville Police but they appear to be literally "bribed" with that 100,000 in cultural fund money they are given. (This is calculated speculation on my part...just for the record.)

In my opinion all these organizations are tight knit Establishment Organizations that watch out for each other. They do what is best for their interests and not what is best for the taxpayers, the contributors and those in desperate need.

In the end they are SELF-DESTRUCTING. People on this blog site asked me to get involved and make a difference. I have refused knowing they would not listen.

I predicted this SELF-DESTRUCTION of this PigFest 2 years ago on this blog site. The 50.19% decline in attendence in just one year is only the beginning of the SELF-DESTRUCTION.

I am also on record stating that the police and fire pension systems will also self-destruct. No one on this blog site believes me but when the numbers come out in September people will understand what I am talking about.

The pension system is a huge disaster ready for a massive implosion. Buckle your seat belt, Suburban Guy.

Thanks for the civil discussion. You seem like a classy person and a very good debator who wants to get to the bottom of issues.

CIJ,
"calculated speculation" = "making things up"

While I am 99% sure of what I am saying, I choose my words in a careful manner to avoid libel and slander. I am being cautious.

As far as yourself, you seem like the beneficiary of a Big Fat Pension resulting from the abuse of taxpayer money.

Next you will be telling us to leave town if we don't want to pay 4 times in real estate taxes what the nicest city to live in America pays.

Now, please cough up your previous handle as you seem very familiar with this blog site.

I like how in Sybil's world, anyone who doesn't openly disagree with him is a man of class, and an excellent debater who wants to get to the bottom of issues. Disagree with Sybil, and you're obviously some kind of kindergarten student incapable of logic or reason.

Oh Sybil, you sure are a master debater.

Nope CIJ,
your words are NOT carefully chosen to avoid libel - they are, once again, your own special brand of making things up, based on nothing more than what you believe to be the case, or what supports your current argument at the moment.
In exactly the same way, once anyone disagrees with you, and particularly once someone calls you out on a point of fact/fiction, you immediately head off into the realm of pensions and suggesting that the person is defrauding the taxpayer.
Guess what, CIJ, I'm stating my opinions and trying to point out that you are making things up. Again. And Again. You do it all the time, and pointing it out is a fine thing.
As for who I might be, why don't you go first? You clearly think that I am someone specific, but I am not. I have occasionally commented in other posts as a simple anonymous, and am now beginning to use GJC. That's all, no more, and paranoia isn't required.

By GJC on July 14, 2009 3:34 PM
Nope CIJ,
your words are NOT carefully chosen to avoid libel - they are, once again, your own special brand of making things up, based on nothing more than what you believe to be the case, or what supports your current argument at the moment.

========================================================================================================================================

My words are very carefully chosen to avoid libel. I have been involved in much litigation and learned many lessons in libel from my attorneys.

I don't make things up.....that is libel. That will get you in trouble. I am fully aware I can be traced from my IP number. Are you aware you can also be traced if you libel...so I would watch it buddy. I make calculated estimates using information and knowledge on hand. There is nothing libelous about that. When I am 99% sure of what I state, I may say I am speculating to cover my rear end even better. What have you done to cover your rear end?

I attempt to predict tax consequences of actions by City Hall to the best of my ability.

I predicted PigFest would be a disaster. Never in my wildest dreams could I have envisioned a 50.19% decline in one year. So my prediction was very conservative and panned out exponentially.....far beyond my wildest expectations and imaginations.

I am predicting the pension deficit for the City of Naperville will get worse this year when the numbers are released in September. Am I lying? It is simply a prediciton based on my knowledge of the system and how it functions.

The State has ordered the City to reduce the pension deficit. The city has stated it will. I predict the city will FAIL. And I am using this BLOG SITE to be on the RECORD.

Let us wait till September and see what happens.

When the pension gets worse in September, you will be nowhere to be found. You will change you handle and move along.

By Citizen Investigative Psychologist on July 14, 2009 3:07 PM
I like how in Sybil's world, anyone who doesn't openly disagree with him is a man of class, and an excellent debater who wants to get to the bottom of issues. Disagree with Sybil, and you're obviously some kind of kindergarten student incapable of logic or reason.

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Need I remind you, Mr. Psychologist, that it is not I who called you and/or bloggers similar to you Kindergarten Children. It was the Moderator.

The Moderator does not like name calling and personal attacks. He considers that childish. I agree with him 100%. If you review your post, you are still name calling....still attacking the messenger instead of his or her message. You should be thankful the Moderator has only called your type, Kindergarten Children. He was very generous.

The Moderator apparently does not having anything against someone who would praise someone who agrees with him or her. I am certainly not going to praise someone I disagree with.

CIJ Says: I make calculated estimates using information and knowledge on hand. There is nothing libelous about that.

That may or may not be true, but the problem, which has been pointed out to you over and over and over and over and over again is that you don't present things as speculation, you present things as fact. In addition, you routinely and luckily seem to meet people 'in the know' who can support your version of things, and once you've stated something - fact or fiction - you refuse to hear any argument about it, even when it has been proven to be false.
CIJ, I know that you take a lot of time here, and that's more than fine, it's actually a good thing. The only issue I have is that you seem to regularly make these leaps of logic, presenting your guesses, calculated estimates and theories as actual fact.
As for libel, what has that really have to do with anything at all? If you're so convinced that you're right, and that the facts are as you present them, then you have no worries at all, as truth is an absolute defense.
How about simply toning it down, making your point once or perhaps twice, and then moving along with the discussion? That's all anyone would really ask of you, I think, but you keep coming back and making the same arguments over and over - and there is no reason for that. This site should be, could be, a discussion, not a place to simply declaim.

To GJC:

You obviously must be an Establishment person - probably amassing a huge and undeserved pension at the expense of the tax payers. The CIJ, a most amazing and intelligent individual, is far out of the league of all the kindergarten level bloggers here who fail to recognize the pure truth and genius in what CIJ is saying. I'd strongly suggest that you have never met someone like this before and will never, ever be able to convince them that anyone has a differing point of view that might be valid. I'd be quite concerned about your wazooooo if you cross CIJ.

I have been a resident of Naperville for twenty years, and for the last few years, I havent gone to Ribfest. The crowds are too big and if I am going out for a Rib dinner, I am not going to sit on the ground eating it. It has become a very popular festival for out of towners, and I think the time has come to bring a festival back to Naperville that the townspeople want to go to. Yes, I know that we raise all kinds of money for charities. Does everything always have to be about how much we raise for charities? I think some serious thought needs to be put into whether the people of Naperville even want to continue with this overgrown festival. Its apparent from this blog that those living close to Ribfest have had it. And the answer is to just move it further north or south to annoy those residents??