Thank you CIJ.
Thanks for increasing awareness about this extremely unfair pension system. It's only natural for those who benefit by confiscating the dollars of struggling private sector workers to attack you when you draw attention to this problem. Don't let them deter you.

I am with you 100% and support your hard work.

When will those of us in the private sector who fight to try to pay for their own retirments be relieved of the burden of carrying our "public servants" on our straining backs? Who is serving who here?

The reaction you see from your opponents are exactly what you would expect when you try to keep a little bit of your own money from their greedy hands.

enclose the letter needed in <Letter> and </Letter>. Note that if you type in these characters into text, they do not show up. Check the link to see what I am talking about.

<b>text</b> = text

<i>text</i> = text

I used a special trick to show < and >. They normally do not show up.

http://www.w3schools.com/tags/default.asp gives many more options.

Make sure you use an end tag or all the subsequent text will be bold, italicized, etc. This will allow you to bold and italicize only a few words at a time making your posts less unreadable.

check with preview first.

-1

GJC,

I have been using B instead of strong and it works but I can not do just one word. Only paragraphs or the ending of paragraphs....can do the last word in a paragraph but that is it. Any other solutions come to mind.

I use EM for italics is there something easier than that!

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Here is something City Officials should read before beating the drums any further on TAX INCREASES. It shows Wall Street is not in touch with Main Street and the stock market will collapse as soon as the irrational exhuberance ends.

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Foreclosures rise 5 percent from summer to fall

AP. By ALAN ZIBEL, AP Real Estate Writer Alan Zibel, Ap Real Estate Writer – 1 hr 1 min ago
WASHINGTON – The number of households caught up in the foreclosure crisis rose more than 5 percent from summer to fall as a federal effort to assist struggling borrowers was overwhelmed by a flood of defaults among people who lost their jobs.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091015/ap_on_bi_ge/us_foreclosure_rates

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A 5% rise from the summer to the fall is mindboggling. This is not even a 1 year increase....a quarter increase. Annualized it is like a 20% increase...scary..!!!

What is the Naperville Sun thinking, and/or does anyone there have working neurons?

One of my neighbors was interviewed in the October 8, 2009 issue of the Naperville Sun. The article was "Schools look to promote healthy habit." The story was about walking to school. It is was a nice story to share with the kids. I bought the neighbors a copy of the Sun since they do not normally get the paper.

OOPS! Some brainiac decided to place this blurb at the top of the same page:

Oct 8, 2005: Human remains thought to be those of a young boy were found in the area of Ferry and Meadow roads in an unincorporated area near Naperville.

I get that publishing old news headlines is interesting. I think it is a nice feature to have. But the juxtaposition of a kid-friendly article and a decidedly kid-hostile blurb is not needed.

Even more ironic is that the web poll associated with the article ( http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/napervillesun/news/1813138,6_1_NA08_WALK_S1-091008.article ) is "Do you think it's safe for your children to walk to school?"

CIJ wrote:

And my rough calculations did not factor in Pension Pay-Outs which most likely would have cancelled out interest from government bonds and dividends from what was left of the Stock Portfolio that was hammered pretty badly...lets say at least 50% to be conservative and assume the Mutual Funds contained a decent amount of stocks. See, I am willing to compromise, JQP, when you make valid points. And you did make a valid point when you stated the Mutual Funds probably contained additional stocks which explains this 20.55 million in losses on ONE FISCAL YEAR despite a significant rebound from March 6, the bottom, to April 30, the end of the FISCAL YEAR. I don't think anyone wants to see the REAL LOSS NUMBER of March 6. It would be very horrendous and difficult to comprehend.

Let's see: I post numbers showing that the pensions' stock portfolio was at least $38 million ($28 million identified as "common stock", plus a minimum of $10 million more in stock mutual funds), and you want me to agree the loss from this portfolio was a minimum of 50%? This means that at least $19 million of the $20.5 million loss was from the stock portfolio, in your estimate. How is that a compromise? Where are you conceding the possibility of anything that is not clearly established by the city's report? You are essentially assuming that none of the remaining $25 million in mutual fund investments was invested in stocks, and that pretty much nothing was lost on the remaining $115 million of the pension investments, some of which was invested in real estate, some of which was invested in corporate bonds, some more of which may have been invested in stocks, and much of which was invested in mortgage-backed securities. Where's the compromise?

-JQP

CIJ,
the problem is that the way you write with the caps and bold sentences, it COMES OFF that way. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, just be a bit careful how you phrase things. A slight change to your sentences could make them less aggressive and less offensive. I know that I read them that way, so I'll assume that others do to, that's why many object to your writings.
Work on that, it will repay your efforts, I think.
Also, and importantly, 'strong' with the brackets is obsolete and nearly archaic. Someone must have sent you to an old, old link. replace the word strong with the letter b or B and you'll be able to bold a single word. Far, far more effective in getting a point across. Truly.

GJC

GJC,
While I may not have perfect English, I did not in any way insult JQP after he admitted he was wrong. I know what I said and I know what I meant. I was genuine in complementing him and I have explained myself. Why do you continue to come here and interpret in a way that brings animosity since I have explained that was not MY INTENTION over and over again? You are the trouble maker not me. You are the one who is being personal and not me.

The rules state you should discuss the subject matter...not ME. You are blatantly breaking the rules. You refuse to discuss the subject matter.

We are debating about pensions. Feel free to join the debate and express your views about the Pension System or any other issue as this is an OPEN THREAD. Tell us if you think our Pension Funds are healthy or unhealthy. If they will explode or implode or neither! What are your thoughts about the pension system and not ME?

You are trying to create a different interpretation of what I said by reading into it what is not into it. If you feel English is my second language( I am not saying if it is or it is not or what I got on my SAT), than you should not be picking on the way I express myself as long as you know what I mean. If you did not understand, it is OK to ask. You asked or accused and I told you I was genuine in my remarks towards JQP. I have been more than clear when I was not genuine and did not want to be genuine to certain bloggers including JQP and Experienced in the past. I feel we have a respect for each other when we argue. JQP, did come on a little strong in the latest round but he did not cross the agreed boundaries we have that the Moderator recommended.

I am the last person afraid to express my feelings. If I think someone is rotten, I will say he or she is rotten. If I feel someone was once rotten and is no longer rotten, I will also express that feeling. Like OJ, I am open to the Republican or Democratic Party. It depends who the candidate is. I have no party loyalty but I like Obama for now.

I said our City Officials spend money like DRUNKEN SAILORS. Did I mean what I said. Yes, I did! Was I genuine? Yes, I was! Do I regret my remarks. No, I don't!

Will I ever respect them again. Yes, if they start looking for ways to cut waste in government instead of contstantly raising taxes every time they have a crises.

Do I hate our City Officials? No, I don't but I hate their wasteful spending habits.

What don't you understand, GJC?

CIJ

PS. My computer will not allow me to only bold one word even if I put strong in front and in back of the word if it is in the middle of the paragraph. It seems to only do paragraphs or isolated sentences for some reason. It did CIJ by itself only because itis its own pargraph. But we will try to cut down on the bold if it bothers you. I feel the bold and color makes for easier reading. Everyone is different. The Moderator hates capitals. You can not please everyone and you have to accept differences. You seem like you feel humans came out of mold and should have one standard. Trust me if we all were the same and had the same standards we would all be very boring.

CIJ,
reread: Thanks for being a MAN and admitting you were WRONG. That takes courage, JQP, and I commend you for your BRAVERY and tell me again that it's a straight sentence and intended as complimentary?
I've assumed for a long time that english is not your native language, so maybe you don't read the bold and capital letters the way that other might, but it is offensive, an attack and a dig. It's been my experience here, reading and occasionally commenting, that you always attack when someone disagrees with you, even though sometimes you try and couch your language as something other than an attack.
Another example: gentleman in scholar. You've said this a number of times, though what you're trying to say is "a gentleman and a scholar" which is an old fashioned british phrase. Also, though you seem to use it as a vague compliment, it was traditionally used as an insult, to the nonproductive upper classes.
I was sorry to see you learn how to use bold. Please take a constructive piece of criticism and use it to highlight a single word, as opposed to full sentence and paragraphs? It's more polite and makes a point far more cogently.
I know that many of your phrases can be read in different ways, and that you feel like you're always being attacked when you post. Sometimes you are. Sometimes you're not. But you always respond as if that is the case. This is not an attack, so don't fight back, just a mild attempt to bring a little peace for the future of this site.
GJC

CIJ:

So you feel that calling them names will further your "cause" and get the people in city hall to listen to you? Do you honestly think that being rude and demeaning to those you want to influence and sway to your way of seeing things will get them to suddenly join ranks with you? Have you considered that perhaps your negative categorization of these folks will make them (and possibly others) feel you are not someone to be taken seriously?

As for debate having to become unpleasant, it does not need to be - though it appears to this reader that you revel in it being so.

GJC,

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Sigh! And what is this $100 million figure based on? You know the figure was more like $80 million at the end of the fiscal year per Experienced. Isn't that big enough for your anti-pension rants? Why do you need to inflate it---especially since, given the performance of the stock market THIS year, the current figure is likely to be south of $80 million rather than north? This is yet another example of why it is not possible to have a rational discussion with you about the pension problem. JQP

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I think the problem with you is your are biased and unfair. I was speaking and writing about pensions. I was not addressing another blogger.

And then JQP comes out of nowhere accusing me of ranting, raving, inflating, and being irrational.

So I respond to him and you attack me as if I am the culprit. I even respected him for admitting he made a mistake and forgave him after he apologized. And genuinely called him BRAVE. It takes a MAN to apologize. And he proven to be a gentelman in scholar. I do respect those I debate even though I disagree with them. If you thought I was mocking him, I was not. I was genuine. I don't like hostility and like to end it quickly and get back to high taxes and government waste, which is my CAUSE that drives me.

Debating is not always pleasant and I think Moderator Magee is doing a good job of keeping it civil. He restrains me more than other bloggers and I am fine with that. He does not always allow me to counter attack and I am also fine with that. He deletes sentences of mine. And I am also fine with that. I am not that difficult an individual to deal with. I also obey rules. The Moderator asked me not to use the W word and I don't use it anymore.

But you won't listen to the Moderator and show some respect by focusing on the topics instead of the bloggers' personalities. Why may I ask?

As far as I am concerned JQP and I made up and you want to stir the fire beneath us.

Hopefully, Experienced and I will be friends one day, too. He seems like a hard working intelligent fellow. We had our moments but we no longer fight. It is a waste of time as the Moderator has proved over and over again by letting us go at it endlessly at times. It got us nowhere.

I just like to tell the truth. City Officials probably come on here under anonymous handles and try to destroy my credibility and reputation. But as you can see the truth always prevails in the end.

Instead of discussing me, do as the Moderator recommended over and over again. Discuss the issues that are many and serious. That is what I do. If someone tries to take me personally to task, I will also to take him or her to task in a like manner.

In summary before making your wild allegations look at who started the nasty exchange. Scold the initiator before you scold the responder and you may have some CREDIBILITY yourself. My credibility remains intact and is constantly coorborated by events and numbers. Even my calculated predictions that were made on this blog site are panning out very nicely.

Thank you,

CIJ

By Anonymous on September 29, 2009 11:57 AM
CIJ:

Does it make you feel better to use derogatory terms when talking about people? Does it feed your righteous indignation to call public officials names like drunken sailors? Why not just say you feel they are fiscally irresponsible? Does the name calling give you a rush? It certainly does nothing for your credibility or enhancing your ability to get anyone to listen to your message

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I have called them fiscally irresponsible for 3 years. They have not changed their ways. They got worse. I feel justified in calling them drunken sailors and another blogger called them the same yesterday. I only started that a few months ago at best in hopes of arousing them out of their comas.

Time is running out.

This NOBLE CAUSE is about government waste resulting in high taxes that are leading to foreclosures and bankruptcies.

No one is getting rushes here. We have a serious financial crisis that is becoming worse. I own real estate in town and I am tired of the fiscal irresponsibility you mention that is playing havoc with my finances and those of my neighbors, friends and fellow Napervillians.

If you pay 70k in real estate taxes and there is a 10% abuse of taxpayer funds, it cost you $7000 dollars. A 20% abuse cost you 14k annually. I have seen my taxes quadruple in the last 20 years and I have had enough. Many of us have to put kids through college and can not tolerate this FISCAL IRRESPONSIBILITY. Home Equity loans are no longer an option. We have to cut back and we expect our City Officials to cut back.

Did you read the article in the Sun today about how they are debating increased taxes? Not one of those fiscally irresponsible Council Members even mentioned cutting expenses, salaries or waste. I was literally OUTRAGED after reading that article in the Sun. Honestly, I am still boiling 12 hours after reading it.

Why don't you try communicating with the fiscally irresponsible rascals running City Hall in any way you see fit? I am behind you a 100% no matter how you address them as long as you are against higher taxes and can get through to them.

Residents will either listen or face forelcosure and bankrupty. I suspect they will listen to my message and eventually absorb what I am saying and ACT and PROTEST!

I am working hard for every Naperville Resident. I suspect one day they will appreciate what I am exposing. I intend to be relentless in my duties as a Citizen Investigative Journalist until the last resident is woken up in this SLEEPY but PRETTY TOWN.

CIJ

Thanks for being a MAN and admitting you were WRONG. That takes courage, JQP, and I commend you for your BRAVERY.

THIS is exactly why some people ignore you, CIJ, and belittle you when moderator allows, and why some just won't let you get away with anything at all.
It was unnecessary, over-the-top, mean-spirited and not even remotely necessary.

CIJ:

Does it make you feel better to use derogatory terms when talking about people? Does it feed your righteous indignation to call public officials names like drunken sailors? Why not just say you feel they are fiscally irresponsible? Does the name calling give you a rush? It certainly does nothing for your credibility or enhancing your ability to get anyone to listen to your message.

By John Q. Public on September 28, 2009 10:39 PM
What you don't seem to understand, Mr. John Q. Public, is the difference between an actual annual pension fund loss and actuarial accrued liability pension deficit. Maybe Forensic Accountant Experienced can explain this to you as I seem to be having a hard time. CIJ

First off, obviously a huge error on my part. I definitely made a mistake here, and I apologize. The increase in actuarial accrued liability represented by last year’s actual losses is certainly greater than the $20 million in investment losses. But that still doesn’t make the rest of your argument correct. JQP

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CIJ wrote:

The P @ F Pensions are nearing $100 million in pension liability deficits.

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Sigh! And what is this $100 million figure based on? You know the figure was more like $80 million at the end of the fiscal year per Experienced. Isn't that big enough for your anti-pension rants? Why do you need to inflate it---especially since, given the performance of the stock market THIS year, the current figure is likely to be south of $80 million rather than north? This is yet another example of why it is not possible to have a rational discussion with you about the pension problem. JQP.

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So basically what you are apologizing for and admitting now it that this paragraph of yours was way over board. And there was no anti-pension rant. Thanks for being a MAN and admitting you were WRONG. That takes courage, JQP, and I commend you for your BRAVERY. Something our city officials don't have as they sneak around changing numbers when no one is looking. They should learn from your FULL DISCLOSURE and attempts to be STRAIGHT FORWARD.

As you see, I did not exaggerate at all. I arrived at a rough calculation of 131.4 million and reduced it to 100 million to factor in every variable possible I may not be aware of since I am not an ACTUARIAL or FORENSIC ACCOUNTANT. I did not increase it from 80 million to 100 million as your originally mistakenly alleged. I ACTUALLY decreased it from 131 million to 100 million.

And my rough calculations did not factor in Pension Pay-Outs which most likely would have cancelled out interest from government bonds and dividends from what was left of the Stock Portfolio that was hammered pretty badly...lets say at least 50% to be conservative and assume the Mutual Funds contained a decent amount of stocks. See, I am willing to compromise, JQP, when you make valid points. And you did make a valid point when you stated the Mutual Funds probably contained additional stocks which explains this 20.55 million in losses on ONE FISCAL YEAR despite a significant rebound from March 6, the bottom, to April 30, the end of the FISCAL YEAR. I don't think anyone wants to see the REAL LOSS NUMBER of March 6. It would be very horrendous and difficult to comprehend.

Based on our healthy debate, I will feel comfortable adjusting the ACTUARIAL ACCRUED LIABILITY PENSION DEFICIT from my orginial estimate of 100 million, UPWARDS to 120 million. Would you buy that, Mr. PUBLIC for now until the City Actuaries release the actual numbers? I think this is a reasonable ballpark estimate.

So while you were ranting and raving that I inflated the numbers 20 million to make the City look bad, I actually deflated the numbers by 20 million and possibly 31.4 million to give the City of Naperville every benefit of every doubt since I was working from musical chairs finanacial statements that were being adjusted apparently without City Council permission as I was actually reviewing them. And BTW, I am not the only one who noticed this. So did highly respected Forensic Accountant Experienced who may have been more upset than I was and visited the City Clerk's Office and the County Clerk's Office to do his own pensonal investigation. Kudos to him!!! A few more like him and we can have a TAX REVOLT in this town.

I only called one council member who said he will look into it and try to bring it up in the next city council meeting IF time allows. I will be watching and taping the next City Council meeting and hopefully time will allow for this issue to be discussed. Hopefully, the City Council will want to call out the ESTABLISHMENT who run this town.

Sadly, this next Council Meeting will focus on EVICTING one helpless, homeless, and hopeless, man instead of a pension liability potential loss of at least 60 million due to the loss of over $20.55 million in pension fund losses.

And now we hear there is another 11 million dollar deficit in our operating budget for next year and the DRUNKEN SAILORS want to increase our taxes instead of taking a 10% across the board cut in city wages as is happening across the country. (California even took 18% cuts in wages.) It does not concern our insensitive city officials that more taxes will result in more bankruptcies and foreclosues to the residents they represent and who helped vote them in office. I guess when you are DRUNK you are INSENSITIVE.

Reducing Assistant City Manager Robert Marshall's salary 10% from 170,000 to 153,000 should be the way to go. He will not suffer as he may now be collecting a 90k pension from the taxpayers due to 3% annual increases imposed on us Naperville Residents. Plus he is working on a SECOND PENSION while we all try to make ends meet in this vicious economy. Too bad I am not allowed to use the W word anymore. But we are really taking it up something. Our City Officials are UNCONSIONABLE. They are SELFISH. To them it is all about ME, MYSELF AND I and SCREW YOU PEON TAXPAYERS.

Our Assistant City Manager makes more then the Governor of Illinois. Does he work as hard? Does he have as much responsiblity. He is not even the Manager of the City but an Assistant. We as a town are really out of control. Maybe we should consider laying the Assistant Manager off and demanding the Manager step it up or ship out. That would save a huge 170k instead of just 17k. He will be just fine financially on his 2 City Pensions that will easily be worth over 100k per year...more than most resident make working full time in Naperville.

Please wake up residents and tell your neighbors, friends, and relatives about the DRUNKEN SAILORS and their INCREDULOUS SPENDING HABITS.

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!

CIJ

Second, you are assuming that the entire $20 million loss came only from the stock portion of the portfolio. Bonds, even U.S. Government bonds, are not risk free, as their valuations are subject to interest rates.

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JQP,
I will try to respond in more detail tomorrow. But thanks for admiting your mistakes.

I just wanted to quickly point out that government bonds have valuations based largely on interest rates as you correctly stated. They have an inverse relationship to interest rates. So if interest rates go down, government bonds usually increase in value. If interest rates go up, they usually decrease in value.

Interest rates have come down from 5% to 1% in the last year or a bit longer. Thus our government bonds went up negating some of stock market losses. Without the appreciation in government bonds, our losses would have been much greater than 20.2 million dollars.

Thus one can reasonably conclude our Pension Portfolio would have been much worse if it was not for the Government Bonds increasing in valuation. This further indicates our managers did worse than either of us expected in managing the stock portfolio.

And I do agree that our Mutual Funds may contain a mixture of stocks, bonds, municipal bonds and even cash. But our fund managers are not managing the mutual funds. They are managing the Common Stocks. Mutual Funds have their own managers.

Anyway you slice it, I still think the Pension Funds will IMPLODE. And I do believe that our pensions will get worse as we have a greater number of retirees. So there is no reason for me to apologize for being wrong here. Some day I will explain that in detail when I have some time.

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PS. And I do not only assume but believe the majority of losses came from the stock portion of the portfolio and not the government bond or municipal bond portion of the portfolio. Without the increase in the valuation of the government bonds that negated some stock losses, the pensions would have had even greater losses.

What you don't seem to understand, Mr. John Q. Public, is the difference between an actual annual pension fund loss and actuarial accrued liability pension deficit. Maybe Forensic Accountant Experienced can explain this to you as I seem to be having a hard time.

First off, obviously a huge error on my part. I definitely made a mistake here, and I apologize. The increase in actuarial accrued liability represented by last year’s actual losses is certainly greater than the $20 million in investment losses. But that still doesn’t make the rest of your argument correct.

As you can see by looking at the report the P and F Pension Funds had 28 million invested in the Stock Market. They lost 20.2 million or 73.33% in the stock market. The Wilshire 5000 as you stated correctly only measures stock performance and lost 37%. Thus our Pension Fund Managers did twice as poorly as the Wilshire 5000 if you want to measure performance against performance where they are actually INVESTING and can be held RESPONSIBLE. You can not count Government Bonds in the equation which are almost risk free when measuruing the performance of how our Fund Mangers did against the Wilshire 5000. The rules of investing given to them require them to keep a certain amounts of money in Government Bonds and you can not give them credit for making the rules. So we need to talk apples against apples and not against oranges if you want to measure their TRUE PERFORMANCE which was dismal to disastrous..

Two big problems with your analysis. First, while there’s $28 million identified as Common Stock; there is another $35 million identified as Mutual Funds.These aren’t all identified in the report, but two of them that are include the Capital World Growth and Income Fund, and Euro Pacific Growth Fund, both of which invest primarily in foreign stocks; a little over $10 million combined was invested in these funds. I think it’s safe to assume that a good chunk (though not all) of the rest of the $35 million is invested in other stock funds.

Second, you are assuming that the entire $20 million loss came only from the stock portion of the portfolio. Bonds, even U.S. Government bonds, are not risk free, as their valuations are subject to interest rates. And not all government bonds are created equal. Muncipal bonds, for example, are more risky than U.S. Treasuries, as they are subject to default. More to the point, the police and fire pensions had more $30 million invested in Freddie Mac (FHLMC) and Fannie Mae (FNMA), and we all know too well by now that such mortagage-backed “government securities”, usually considered fairly conservative investsments, had a particularly bad year in 2008.

The Wilshire 5000 as you stated correctly only measures stock performance and lost 37%. Thus our Pension Fund Managers did twice as poorly as the Wilshire 5000 if you want to measure performance against performance where they are actually INVESTING and can be held RESPONSIBLE.

To really gauge the overall performance of the pension investments, you would have to break it down in to categories of investment types and compare them to appropriate indices, of course. I only used the Wilshire 5000 as a basic benchmark of an “aggressive” investing style (even though, as stock investing goes, a Wilshire 5000 index fund would be considered fairly conservative). I did this because you implied that the fund managers were being irresponsible and engaging in highly-speculative investments. Of course it is not accurate to compare the performance of the entire portfolio to a benchmark that is only appropriate to one portion of it, but you were the one who set the parameters for this argument.

In the above numbers I posted from your own LINK, even though the Police Pension Fund increased its actual value by $4.6 million from 2007 to 2008, they also increased their actuarial accrued liability pension deficit from $100.3 to $111.3 because what they collected and their return on investments were not enough to cover future liabilities.

The actuarial accrued liability increased by $11 million, not the deficit. But this is old news, and not really relevant.

Keep in mind Forensic Accountant Experienced was one of my harshest critics on this blog site and you were one of his hard core blind supporters. I believe he has the EXPERTISE and is seeing the light and coming around. You apparently don't have the EXPERTISE so why not continue blindly supporting him as you did in the past against ME. At least if you continue supporting him you will have to change your views 180 degrees as he did. He finally realized that the City of Naperville was doing a CON JOB on the taxapayers. God Bless him for his heroic revelations. He woke up.

I quickly admit my mistakes when they’re pointed out. You, on the other hand, have numerous times advanced the argument that the pension fund deficit will certainly increase when the number of retirees increases in the future. If you still really believe this, I would say that your understanding of actuarial science could certainly stand some improvement, too. If you don’t believe this anymore, will you here now admit that you were wrong?

As for Experienced, I was not a blind supporter. He and I had points of agreement. I imagine that we still do. If I read his post correctly, the only thing that has changed is that he has apparently uncovered some information that allegedly indicates that the city may have violated some laws in it’s mid-year reporting on the status of the pension funds. I am very interested in seeing more of the details. He did not say that the pension funds had been invested unwisely, or that the deficit is out of control and will certainly only get worse. I’m sure he understands how a bad market, particularly one of the worst financial downturns in history, would likely have a negative impact on the actuarial value of the assets in a pension fund. If he has changed his mind about any of this, or if I misrepresented his views, I invite him to comment. Until then, I am not convinced that he is now a certified member of Team CIJ.

On a side not, it’s interesting that you now refer to Experienced as “Forensic Accountant Experienced”, and trumpet his expertise, since earlier you spent so much effort trying to convince everyone that he must be a lawyer for the city. What new information did you uncover about his background that led you to believe that he was being truthful about his occupation after all? It couldn’t just be that now that he agrees with you---on one point, at least---that his “ulterior motive” has magically disappeared. Or could it?

The Stock Market does not promise higher returns as you falsely allege, Mr. John Q. Public with all due respect. The stock market PROMISES nothing other than that you are risking your money for the possibility of higher returns. It makes absolutely NO PROMISES!!!.... . I hope no young fellow reads your comments and believes them. That would cost him dearly in the future. Please RETRACT them as they are BLATANTLY FALSE.

I said “promises”, not “guarantees”. Still think that sounds too rosy? Fine. I retract the use of the word “promises”. But you know darn well that the historical average return of the stock market is significantly higher than pretty much any other form of investment. You knew what I meant. Honestly, you take one word out of context and write two paragraphs about it as if it refutes my expanation of why stocks are considered by virtually every financial planner as a necessary element of any retirement portfolio. Sheesh!

How dare you say it is NOT possible to have a rational discussion with me about pensions? It seems you make such immature statements to cover your lack of knowledge, research and expertise in this difficult, complicated and complex field.

It’s not possible because you have shown a propensity to willingly (IMO) misrepresent the numbers in an effort to make them seem to say something they do not. I was definitely in error in my earlier post, and I admit it. But you have never admitted to being wrong in any of the erroneous statements and misrepresentations you’ve made about the pensions in the past. And you’ll probably continue to imply that only incompetence and mismanagement could result in a pension fund deficit increasing from one year to the next, even though you have to know this isn’t true.

-JQP

By e^(i*pi) on September 24, 2009 11:49 AM
Any updates on the clearly faulty budget posted above?

Experienced said he'd be in Joliet and could check the filing dates.

Anything from the Sun on this?

e^(i*pi)
----------------------

I did go to the Will County Clerk's office the next day. They had a copy of the ordinance adopting the budget with a copy of a budget attached. It was file marked on 4/28/09. It was troubling what I saw and I thought that maybe parts of the budget had become detached. Therefore, I wanted to see what the ordinance on file with the City Clerk looked like.

I did get to City Hall last week and found that what was on file with the County Clerk was the same as what was on file with the City Clerk. The attached budget is in line as far as I can see with the budget that was on-line as the "proposed" budget until just recently. Therefore, what is on-line is not what the city council adopted. It appears that someone after I questioned the budget made changes that were not approved by the city council.

Second, the budget attached to the ordinance has 50 pages of detail showing every source of revenue coming into the city. On the 51st page is a "summary" of the expenses purporting to show where over $387 million is to be spent--one line per fund. Discounting the fact that the attached budgeted expenses do not comply with GASB and statutory requirements for a budget, common sense tells one that where the money is to be spent is just as important, if not more important, than where the money is coming from.

What troubles me in this whole process is the total lack of open government. Someone was playing hide the ball and only came forth with actual numbers when they got questioned. One cannot look at the official filed and adopted budget of the city and tell much of anything as to where the money is to be spent, and how it was spent for the last 2 years as required by law.

My opinion is that the whole mess is ripe for protested taxes, at least on the pension funds, if not as to the entire corporate fund tax levy also.

Now, before someone tries to put words in my mouth, my problem is with the lack of open government. At a time of contested municipal elections it would appear that numbers were not being disclosed. I have less problem with the actual numbers if they would have been disclosed in a timely manner. Specifically, in the current economy, pension investment losses should be expected. I am not sure why they were allowed to max out at $20 million before someone took action that resulted in the cessation of additional losses after Dec. 2008. What troubles me is that someone decided not to tell the public of those losses during the budget process and during the elections.

Police Pension Plan:
4/30/2008 76,793,651 111,303,578 34,509,927 69.0% $15,564,290 221.7%
4/30/2007 72,123,104 100,297,652 28,174,548 71.9% 14,593,154 193.1%
4/30/2006 62,749,275 87,428,326 24,679,051 71.8% 13,054,396 189.0%
4/30/2005 54,873,909 79,426,569 24,552,660 69.1% 12,619,895 194.6%

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1. The above numbers are from the 1 year old financial report you are looking at. You should be looking at fiscal 2009 instead of fiscal 2008. I will try to use the above numbers to explain your unfounded "rant and rave" against ME.

2. As you can see by looking at the report the P and F Pension Funds had 28 million invested in the Stock Market. They lost 20.2 million or 73.33% in the stock market. The Wilshire 5000 as you stated correctly only measures stock performance and lost 37%. Thus our Pension Fund Managers did twice as poorly as the Wilshire 5000 if you want to measure performance against performance where they are actually INVESTING and can be held RESPONSIBLE. You can not count Government Bonds in the equation which are almost risk free when measuruing the performance of how our Fund Mangers did against the Wilshire 5000. The rules of investing given to them require them to keep a certain amounts of money in Government Bonds and you can not give them credit for making the rules. So we need to talk apples against apples and not against oranges if you want to measure their TRUE PERFORMANCE which was dismal to disastrous.

3. Yes, I did read the business headlines and as a self-proclaimed stock investor and a Citizen Investigative Journalist I obviously know all this very well. And my perfomance in my personal portfolio was not only much better than our Fund Managers who charged us 350k but much better than the Wilshire 5000. (You can say I learned from the Tech Bath I took in 2000 and 2001 when the bubble burst and I did not know how to get out of the way of the Tech Tsunami. This time I did. If our fund managers were brilliant and experienced they would have learned something from the Tech Bubble as I did. Apparently they did not or are possibly young and did not experience the Tech Tsunami of the early part of this decade.

4. What you don't seem to understand, Mr. John Q. Public, is the difference between an actual annual pension fund loss and actuarial accrued liability pension deficit. Maybe Forensic Accountant Experienced can explain this to you as I seem to be having a hard time.

a. In the above numbers I posted from your own LINK, even though the Police Pension Fund increased its actual value by $4.6 million from 2007 to 2008, they also increased their actuarial accrued liability pension deficit from $100.3 to $111.3 because what they collected and their return on investments were not enough to cover future liabilities.

b. In the 2009 numbers I looked at that are not posted above, the city admits losing ($10,369,827) just in the PP Fund alone beofore investment fees and costs. This is a far cry from the 2008 numbers where even though $4.6 million was earned and/or contributed net of pension pay-outs and costs, the pension liability deficit increased $11 million. (I try not to be too specific when normally blogging so I am not over the head of the average blogger, but I can be very specific if someone challenges me as I do my homework thoroughly leaving no stone unturned when time allows)

c. The 2009 numbers just for the PP Fund were nearly $15 million worse than the 2008 numbers. A positive $4.6 million to a negative $10.4 million is a $15 million swing in the wrong direction in just ONE YEAR.

d. If a $4.6 million positive resulted in an $11 million increased pension liability deficit, I suspect that a $10.4 million actual loss of current cash or equivalent in securities, would result in a nearly $36 million pension liability deficit.

e. To the best of my knowledge the acutuaries have not come up with the latest exact numbers yet. What I did was very conservative when I added the $20.2 million in losses to last years actual pension liability deficit of $61.4 million. I probably should have added $36 million in deficits for the police and maybe $34 million for the fire fighters who lost exactly ($9,808,248) before factoring in investment fees to the fund managers. Thus based on these 2 numbers we would have an increased pension deficit liability loss of 70 million which would put us at $131.4 million in accrued pension liability deficits. (Keep in mind I are not talking about or including the City of Naperville IMRF which has significant problems of its own including a sizabel pension deficit.)

f. Now the reason I am throwing around this conservative $100 million number instead of $131.4 million dollars is these Pension Funds made some interest from the Government Bonds and dividends in Common Stocks they own which may or may not be netted against this $20.2 million in losses. It was not clear in the vague city report which appears to be UNAUDITED and UNAUTHENTICATED. (Let us wait back for Forensic Accountant Experienced to report back to us with the Certified Copies from Will County if they EXIST and were FILED).
I copied and pasted the exact numbers for the annual pension losses from the 364 page City Financial Report, JQP, so you and others stop accusing me of "ranting and raving." They are in paranthesis as this signifies a negative number in a financail report.

Here is the link again:

http://www.naperville.il.us/emplibrary/FY10AnnualOperatingBudget.pdf

g. Keep in mind Forensic Accountant Experienced was one of my harshest critics on this blog site and you were one of his hard core blind supporters. I believe he has the EXPERTISE and is seeing the light and coming around. You apparently don't have the EXPERTISE so why not continue blindly supporting him as you did in the past against ME. At least if you continue supporting him you will have to change your views 180 degrees as he did. He finally realized that the City of Naperville was doing a CON JOB on the taxapayers. God Bless him for his heroic revelations. He woke up. I commend him. When will the rest of the 144,300 residents in this town wake up and stop believing City Press Releases that are biased and tantamount to orchestrated propanganda? Why are you believing City Officials who need to hide the truth from the residents so they can continue their Legally Corrupt Methods of Double Dipping into Taxpayer Funds while ruining our City Balance Sheet? Why are you not helping me stop this train wreck before it reaches Station Number 9 which appears to be very near?

5. The Stock Market does not promise higher returns as you falsely allege, Mr. John Q. Public with all due respect. The stock market PROMISES nothing other than that you are risking your money for the possibility of higher returns. It makes absolutely NO PROMISES!!!

6. The past is no indication of the future in the stock market. In the last 10 years the stock market has not delivered. As a matter of fact the Nasdaq is down over 60% from its peak early in this decade. The Dow despite its massive rally in the last 6 months is still down 33% from its peak. I don't see how you can state the Stock Market promises higher returns. The Stock Market only "promises" higher risk. I hope no young fellow reads your comments and believes them. That would cost him dearly in the future. Please RETRACT them as they are BLATANTLY FALSE.

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And, while you are right that investing in the stock market IS a risky proposition, it also PROMISES higher returns than other investments, especially over the very long term (again, something somebody in your line of work should know). JQP

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Everyone in my line of work, knows the stock market PROMISES nothing....NOTHING! You appear to be HALLUCINATING and DELUSIONAL to be alleging that the STOCK MARKET "PROMISES." Not even Mr. Huber whom alleges the NPD and CIA conspired and stole up to 2 million dollars from his storage shed would make such a profoundly unfounded statement. It is a figment of your imagination if you believe the stock market PROMISES anything other than RISK. In Japan, the stock market is a FRACTION of what it was 2 decades ago. Two decades is long term for most investors who only have a 4 decade working career. It should be even longer term for P and F personnal who only have a 3 decade working career before retirement at age 52 or there abouts.

7. How dare you say it is NOT possible to have a rational discussion with me about pensions? It seems you make such immature statements to cover your lack of knowledge, research and expertise in this difficult, complicated and complex field.

8. Experts in the US Government spent much time debating, discussing and researching if Social Security should invest our retirement money in the stock market right before this latest bubble burst. They concluded right before this collapse it would be a mistake, too risky and did not go that route. (Thank the Mighty Lord for their correct and timely decison.) Our P and F Pension Fund Managers apparently did not heed their advice and the Police and Fire Fighters took the "Mother of all Baths." They should be calling for the resignation of their Fund Managers and I believe they will when they wake up from their comas. Too many people in this town are unfortunately asleep. Watch out, if the Naperville Sun decides to wake some people up. I am doing so much research for the Sun as a pro bono Citizen Investigative Journalist, that they do not even have to do their own research. I am providing exact numbers and links to those numbers in reports I reviewed.

9. I stand by my statement

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CIJ wrote:

The P @ F Pensions are nearing $100 million in pension liability deficits.

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that you attempted to discredit and mock. Notice I used the words pension liability deficits and not current cash or stock market pension losses. I chose my words carefully as I always do.

10. I am not an ACTUARY or a FORENSIC ACCOUNTANT and can not give you exact numbers with 100% certainty. I can only give you rough estimates obtained by the use of a $5.99 calculator from Walgreens. The City does obtain actual numbers from ACTUARIES and usually CM Bob provides them when they are available.(This year the City may decide to launch a COVER-UP as it did in Napergate if we don't stay on top of them....you can not put nothing past drunken sailors.) Many of my calculated, well-researched and informative predictions are based on long term knowledge about the Pension Disaster @ Fiasco and have been right so far. Let us see what CM Bob comes back with here. Who knows the "Establishment Powers to Be" may have muzzled him as they muzzled Ms. Police Officer when she publicly admitted Professional Courtesy exists and is deliberately practiced in NPD traffic ticketing policies. Hopefully, if that is the case the Naperville Sun can make an inquiry and demand all the numbers equivalent to those provided last year.

Again JQP, to SUMMARIZE, remember last year we had an actual increase in pension funds to the tune of $4.6 million and a simultaneous increase in the pension liability pension fund deficit to the tune of $11 million. This occurs because the current pension revenue from contributions and investments is not enough to offset the future pension pay-out liabilities. This year we lost $10.4 million instead of make $4.6 million. Do you expect we decreased the Pension Liability Deficit this year? If you can comprehend me in a rational way, you would understand that we increased our Actuarial Accrued Pension Liability Deficit this year much more than the $11 million we increased it last year. Here we are only talking about the NPD and not both the Police and Fire Depts.

My estimate and prediction that the pension liability deficit will rise from $61.4 million to over a $100 million stands. Again, my estimate was for both P and F Pension Funds and includes adjustments that will prevent it from being $131 million if we DO factor these in due to contributions, dividends and interest.

If anything JQP, I was not trying to INFLATE the numbers as you RAVED and RANTED out like a man who just had his head chopped off. I was actually trying to DEFLATE the numbers and be as CONSERVATIVE as possible as I am fully aware that I am under the MICROSCOPE on this Blog Site.

Thank you and have a nice Sunday!

CIJ

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Moderator Magee,
My long, accurate and detailed response is not only for JQP. It is also for the numerous City Officials and Council Members who also read your blog site religiously and faithfully. I believe they are having a very hard time remaining silent and will soon come out swinging. If you hit them hard and relentlessly like the Napergate Man did, they will eventually come out of their closets and cubicles in an attempt to try to helplessly defend themselves. Thanks for offering me this very unique opportunity to communicate with our COs and CMs. And BTW, I also believe some top ranking Naperville Sun Officials read this blog site. You can correct me if I am wrong on this one.

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CIJ wrote:

The P @ F Pensions are nearing $100 million in pension liability deficits.

Sigh! And what is this $100 million firgure based on? You know the figure was more like $80 million at the end of the fiscal year per Experienced. Isn't that big enough for your anti-pension rants? Why do you need to inflate it---especially since, given the performance of the stock market THIS year, the current figure is likely to be south of $80 million rather than north? This is yet another example of why it is not possible to have a rational discussion with you about the pension problem.

As for the "scandal" of a $20 million loss in one year, didn't you read the business headlines last year? Pretty much all of the financial markets the world over had horrible years. The balance in the NPD and NFD pensions at the beginning of the previous fiscal year was $153 million (see page 60 of this document), so a $20 million loss is about 13%. By way of comparison, the Wilshire 5000, perhaps the broadest measure of the performance of U.S. Stocks, saw a 37% decline in 2008---and the U.S. market was actually one of the "stronger" performers last year.
As a self-proclaimed stock trader and investigative journalist, you should know all of this.

And, while you are right that investing in the stock market IS a risky proposition, it also promises higher returns than other investments, especially over the very long term (again, something somebody in your line of work should know). Pensions are retirement funds, and retirement funds are long-term investments, which is one reason why any financial planner worth a darn will tell you that you should always have a good chunk of your retirement money invested in the stock market, even after you retire. I'm no financial expert, but if you check out the link I posted, it appears that half or more of the money in these pensions was invested in various U.S. government securities, which are about as boring and safe as investments get. So if you still want to argue that the NPD and NFD pension managers are being irresponsible with their investments, you'd be well-advised to come up with some better evidence.

-JQP

WHAT'S ON MY MIND?

How 2 police officers can handle downtown Naperville on very busy fall weekends doing a great job, is what is on my mind??!!

But how our Police Chief assigns 6-8 bike, resource, or school cops,(call them what you like) to assist beat and out-of-beat police officers on Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday in the summer when the downtown is almost deserted after 10pm. It is simply a waste of taxpayer money and police resources.

Yes, this great City of Naperville has $3 million dollars in POLICE OT because of incompetence....not intelligence.

The dozen or so cops patrolling downtown even on weekdays in the summer are not needed. They are there to keep their payroll checks flowing to them. If we must pay them since we do not want to lay them off, can not we at least put them to productive use???

Are these school cops not capable of giving speeding tickets or turn signal tickets? Of course they are! So why not have them relieve the patrol officers who accumulated so much time sitting as potted plants in courtrooms so we don't at least have to pay so much OT.

Naperville should strive to eliminate unnecessary police OT. We have no money. The P @ F Pensions are nearing $100 million in pension liability deficits. It won't be long before each taxpayer is asked to cough up $2000 for these funds on their real estate tax bills. And that assumes annual pension deficits can be stopped and contained. Easier said than done since the deficits increase each year, despite State Orders that they must be decreased.

Hopefully, others and the Naperville Sun will support me in my attempts to use school officers to reduce OT instead of riding bikes for leisure on taxpayer time.

As a city we need to learn to be efficient. Unless, we learn soon, we will undoubtely one day have to file bankruptcy, the Chapter 9 vesion.

Personally, I don't care who runs this town....Republicans, Democrats, Napergatians or Establishment.

But if the Establishment wishes to continue running this town they must wake up before the Naperville Sun wakes up and tells the residents what is really going on in NaperPerfectVille behind the scenes. If the Establishment wants to preserve and maintain power, they need to stop sending police officers to courtrooms to be potted plants and to downtown to ride bikes leisurely before it is too late.

In 20 years my home real estate tax bill increased from 3,000 to 12,000 dollars. I don't think this is fully as a result of economic inflation or real estate appreciation. I believe it is largely because of incompetence and inefficiencies in City Hall. Sooner or later my fellow residents will wake up and join me in the protest against City Hall. Hopefully, we will have 1000 protesting next April 15 in front of City Hall instead of only 400. And if that does not cause some City Officials to resign due to incompetence, we should shoot for 2000 on April 15, 2011. Eventually, we need to break them before they break us. Let it be them who go for broke and not us. After all, they are the culprits in the financial mess we are facing, while we the residents are watching our expenses day and night so we can afford to pay our ever escalating real estate tax bills.

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CITY PENSION FUND MANAGERS LOSE $20.55 MILLION IN ONE YEAR.

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e^(i*pi),

I think Moderator Magee MENTIONED a Sun Reporter may be looking into this.

When it comes to bad news, the Naperville Sun can not depend on press releases from the City of Naperville. The City of Naperville is not about bashing itself. No city or person is about bashing itself or himself or herself.

That is why the role of newspapers is so important in our society. That is why we can not let newspapers become extinct like the dinosaurs.

The Sun has been historically very soft on the City of Naperville. Almost spoiling the City like you would spoil children and hope they will mature and be a productive member of society one day. It never works, though.

The Sun needs to give the City tough love. Not a little but a lot.

An investigation needs to be launched as to how a former
30 year friendly Naperville Police Officer(does anyone know who I am referring to) can suddenly develop the EXPERTISE to appoint 4 of the 10 individuals to oversee the POLICE AND FIRE PENSION FUNDS that just lost $20.5 million in one year.

Did he appoint truly qualified financial experts or did he appoint friendly establishment folks? I truly don't know! I don't even know the name of one single person on these two 5-person committees. Everything is very SECRETIVE in NaperPefectVille, a classic Stepford Wives Town, USA. Press releases are only for the purpose of patting themselves on the back. The Sun needs to realize that and stop depending on these press releases as the source for "Best News It sees Fit to Print."

All I know, is that we lost $20.5 million dollars in one year and everyone is hiding including CM Bob who is usually vocal on this blog site. This is really a huge amount of money. And even though the police and fire fighters and their appointees lost all this money, they ulitmately have no responsibility for the losses. The losses are all the responsibility of the Naperville Taxpayer.

That is why everyone is hiding. But since our City Officials read this blog site, I will keep exposing them until they come clean. They know and most bloggers know I don't go away until I get some answers. I have been blogging for 3.5 years and I feel my energy level is the highest its been because I beleive in the causes I push forward. They are not MY causes...they are the Naperville Resident's causes and I have no doubt they will wake up and support ME one day.

I am ever so thankful that the Naperville Sun allows me to repeat myself and keep this issue on the front burner until our City Officials give us an explanation as to how they can lose so much money in one year. Why they chose risky investments instead of conservative safe investments? Could it be they chose risky investments because they knew the risk was not theirs but the taxpayers?

In California, they did the same thing. When the risky investment bore fruit, they increased their pension pay-outs in some cases up to 100% of salary. They shortened their time of employment from 30 years to 25 years in order to qualify for a FULL PENSION in some cases. They justified it by stating why should the taxpayers mind since they earned this money through prudent investing. When the prudent investing collapsed they wanted the taxpayers to reimburse their funds. California taxes were so unbearably high that officials finally realized it was not going to happen. Most California Public Employees finally took an 18% pay cut.

I think City Employees of Naperville need to consider taking an 18% pay-cut too. Lower salaries also result in lower pension pay-outs. Keep in mind we are under ORDERS OF THE STATE OF ILLINOIS to eliminate the pension deficit by the year 2033 and instead of taking a step in the right direction, we took a GIANT STEP in the WRONG DIRECTION with this $20.2 million in pension fund losses combined with $300,000 in pay-outs to the fund managers who lost the hard earned taxpayer money. I can not imagine how the City got into a contract to pay managers 300k annually, actually I think it is 350k, to lose $20.2 million in one year.

Even, I, who was paid nothing, have advised against the Pension Funds and their risky investe=ments on this blog site repeatedly, until the Moderator(former, current or both) indicated I sounded like a broken record. I admit I sounded like a broken record. But a broken record is palatable while $20.55 million in taxpayer losses in one year is simply NOT palatable when so many residents are facing foreclose and bankruptcy in this unusually tough economy. When nearly 10% of the resident of Naperville are unemployed or about to be unemployed. When unemployment is still rising. When the last leg of the real esate bubble, that being commerical real estate, has not yet collapsed.

Let us hope the Naperville Sun can light the fire under out City Officials that will cause the resignations of those responsible for our $20.55 million in losses. Unless, the Sun holds our city officials responsible for their improprieties and inefficienceis, for their incompetence and possible corruption, these officials will continue in their heinous and unconscionable ways of managing our city and its finances.

A front page article with this heading would be appropriate.

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CITY PENSION FUND MANAGERS LOSE $20.55 MILLION IN ONE YEAR.

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Any updates on the clearly faulty budget posted above?

Experienced said he'd be in Joliet and could check the filing dates.

Anything from the Sun on this?

e^(i*pi)

What's wrong with the Ellsworth school clothing exchange? The exchange is a fundraiser to raise funds for District 203. Sellers donate their clothing, time tagging, pins, hangers, etc. to make a 70% profit while donating 30% to the school... and they do make money.

Now Sellers are fined for picking up unsold items, hanging items on wrong hangers, not filling in the tag correctly, and a whole mess of silly stuff. Sellers need to sign a two-ply sheet agreeing to this nonsense.

This is the first time I have seen donations being fined! Where, oh where, is the appreciation!!!!!

Ellsworth Clothing Exchange has a long, fine tradition which even my elderly mother can remember. Why ruin it???

Experienced,

Have you learned anything about our Pension Tsunami?

I have not heard from CM Bob so anything you can provide can only be helpful to my ongoing investigation.

I hope you are reading the Chicago Sun-Times as of late as it appears determined to put an end to this corrupt pension system. I wish the Chicago Sun-Times lots of luck and I hope they wake up the Chicago Tribune soon which should join this battle against CORRUPTION and Big Fat Pensions.

Did you hear about that school teacher that is receiving $341,000 a year in pension benefits at age 50 and will be receiving $682,000 at age 74 and if she lives to 98, $1,364,000 annually in pension benefits. She gets a 3% increase each year even if we have DEFLATION. My rough calculations indicate she will receive over 32,736,000 million dollars of our tax money if she lives to be 98 years old when you factor in her 3% annual cost of living raises. That of course assumes she did NOT get another government job after retiring as a school teacher and is DOUBLE or TRIPLE dipping like Assistant City Manager Robert Marshall.

I really don't understand how anyone can come on this blog site and support the Illinois Pension Systems unless s/he is benefitting from the corruption.

It seems like this Firefighter Friend is probably a Firefighter defending his Big Fat Pension. Otherwise, he would most probably not give a hoots like most people until they have to foreclose or file for bankrupty. By that time it is to late to give a hoots about anything but finding shelter and food.

I am just hoping and praying the Naperville Residents will eventually wake up sometime before the impending BIG IMPLOSION.

I was reading about pension in many other states tonight. Many are calling this phenomena the Pension Tsunami.

Anyway some states are now contributing 50-65% of police and fire fighter salaries into their pension funds. Naperville appears to have adjusted upwards from 21.16% to about 25% which is a far cry from what is truly needed to sustain the "unstainable" pension system.

Where is this money coming from for these other states and cities?

It is no longer coming from taxapayers as that source has dried up. You can only milk a cow so much before it will eventually kick you indicating it has nothing more to give. It is DRY!

Many of these states and cities are now laying off young cops and young fire fighters and using their former salaries to pay into the pension fund so older cops and fire fighters can collect. This means that the public will be getting much less protection so the UNIONS can take care of their Senior Folks and make sure they get their BIG FAT PENSIONS who in some cases may even be DOUBLE DIPPING as is common in Naperville and Chicago.

We know Toledo laid off half of its cops to make ends meet. Aurora is being rumored to be in need of laying off cops and fire fighters according to newspaper articles in order to fatten the pension system before it collapses. However, senior Aurora officials are denying this even though my sources tell me it is true. I believe someone is launching a trial balloon in advance to see how police officers and fire fighters will absorb the imminent loss of jobs. How the public will respond to less safety and security so that senior officials receive their BIG FAT PENSIONS!

Will Naperville be next? No doubt unless the taxpayers are willing to be taxed much higher. I really don't know how Napervillians can absorb higher taxes in these trying economic times where foreclosure and bankruptcy seem to be the reality of the era.

Anway, I hope CM Bob comes on again one day and explains to the readers of this blog site the devastating situation this $20.5 million dollars in the pension fund losses has caused to our Pension System right here in Naperville.

I hope he can inform us of what action was taken by the City Council to appoint more qualified managers to run these devastated pension funds. While I adore Mayor Pradel like most Napervillians, one has to ask, does he have the financial expertise and wisdom to select 4 of the 10 individuals appointed to oversee these Pension Funds. My guess is, he does not, which has contributed to the Pension Fiasco soon to be a Tsumani.

I hope CM Bob can comes on soon and tells us what the new P @ F PENSION LIABILITY DEFICIT currently stands at. I believe it is much higher than the conservative $81.9 million dollars I have been throwing around give or take a few hundred thousand dollars depending on if you figure in the investment advisors salaries or not. I believe the rest of the Municipality of Naperville has an additional $12.7 million deficit. When the true numbers are revealed, we may find out we finally exceeded $100 million in combined Pension Deficits just for the City of Naperville. That translates to $2000 per household...something most of us don't need and can not afford. While I knew this would eventually happen, I never thought it would happen one year after my prediction based on very rough calculations.

Keep in mind we only have a few dozen police and fire fighters who are retired and collecting pensions and we are in Big Trouble. Can anyone imagine when we have 400 retirees collecting pensions with only 400 employed and contributing into the pension system??? Chapter 9 may be on the horzion and I suspect one day no one will get a pension....Period!!!

In regards to Ms Benson's posting about the mug shots. I find it rather amuzuing to see exactly who's lurking about the city commiting crime and breaking into your homes. At least this is "hard core news", not necessarily information we can use but actual events that are reported with acuracy and truth. God forbid we should news get about acurate reporting about "CHANGE" and where all our tax dollars are being spent and what type of indoctrination is going on in our schools. I think, the ladies auxiliary , park district drivel, and city council pandamonium should divert the attention of the real issues.

Please note.

At 3% increases per year Double Dipping Robert Marshall will DOUBLE his pension every 24 years and not every 26 years as I initially stated. He will also double the amount of his second pension that he is currently working on now while gainfully employed by the city every 24 years.

So due to a second error I caught on reveiw the pension system is worse than I described.

It should IMPLODE quicker than my initial forecasts. Sorry to keep giving you worse news.

OK, Think about this....NEWS STORY FROM THE SUN

"Tenants, pet reptiles unhurt in apt. fire"

"menagerie of snakes and other reptiles"

Tenants are known to have BOA Snakes.

Snakes and Reptiles in a smokey fire. I could not even think of how I would react if I came face to face with a LARGE snake in the darkness of smoke. Reminds me of that horror flic "snakes on the plane."

Hats off to our Firefighters for keeping it together with this one....

The wazoo comments were stolen form a famous commercial.

Not from Rush Limbaugh.

He stole them as I did from that famous commerical with the guy on the operating table complaining how his medical bill was going to be up the wazooo after his operation to the best of my memory.

You can say all you want about the pension system but the facts bear out what I am saying. You can spread all the rumors you want but the facts bear out what I am saying.

You can not dispute the facts that Robert Marshall can runs a marathon and yet is milking or raiding a pension system that is $81.4 million in the hole.

You can pretend fire fighters and police officers risk their lives but you can not disptue the fact that no firefighter has lost his life since 1971 and no police officer lost his life since 1929. Those are the facts my friend so stop making a fool of yourself and spreading propaganda and losing what is left of your credibility.

You can not disptue the facts that this pension system will implode and police officers and fire fighters will get NOTHING.

Don't ever forget the old saying pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered. It applies very much here....

CIJ

Oh CIJ, the city reads your comments but they do it for entertainment purposes, you have wild and crazy unfounded ideas. And your "wazoo" comments are stolen from Rush Limbaugh, he uses that phrase all the time...reallllly original there.

Government employees will never get rich working for the government, it's a thankless job, it's not a glamourous job, it can be a back breaking, life risking job. A pension is the one benefit they get for years of public service. Put a sock in it my friend.

Why does the Naperville Sun feel it necessary to post the mug shots of everyone arrested in Naperville? Don't you have anything more important to write about? Is this paper turning into one of those magazines you read while checking out at Jewel? If you don't have something else to write about why don't you consider going back to a twice-weekly publication and give us a break. It is just like two years ago when you graced the cover of the paper with the article on the stolen iPOP over and over again. Is that really cover story worthy?

I made a MAJOR ERROR when I stated Assistant City Manager Robert Marshall will receive $4,080,000 from his FIRST Pension if he lives to be 100. Also make another MAJOR ERROR when I stated the Economics School Teacher will receive $17,050,000 if she lives to be 100.

What I failed to factor in is the pension recipients receive automatic 3% annual increases according to the Chicago Sun-Times. Based on the formula of 72, Bob's pension of 85,000 will be 170,000 after 26 years and 340,000 after 52 years annually. Thus my 4.08 million estimate is very low. It was based on Bob receiving 85k a year for 48 years until he turns 100. If you factor in his 3% annual raises he should receive over 10 million easily if he lives to be 100. This will be coming from funds with 81.4 million in pension liability deficits. I do not know how many millions he will be receiving from his SECOND pension which he is working on right now. This municipal pension fund currently has a deficit of 12.7 million from memory.

The same thing applies to the school teacher. She will be receiving $682,000 after 26 years or at age 76 instead of the only $341,000 at the current time at age 50 something. After 52 years she will be receiving annual pension benefits of $1,364,000 dollars. Yes, per year, if she lives to be a little over 100 years old. Her total benefits would probably exceed 50 million if she gets her 3% annual contractual raises and lives to be a little over 100. So in essence this school teacher hit a LOTTERY JACKPORT created out of hard earned taxpayer dollars.

Does this sound like a palatable pension system to anyone on this blog site who is a civilian not receiving a government pension? Government employees need not express their very biased opinions regarding the pension system....we already know how they feel about this corruption....they applaud and abuse it in any legal way or manner possible. They don't care one iota that the Naperville Taxpayers is crunched to death with taxation.(Trying my best not to use the W word which I would have inserted here, Moderator Magee.)

This is our pension system, my dear friends. Support it if you like. But it will IMPLODE in its current format. If you love your fire fighters and police officers so much, you should at least warn them what is about to happen. Maybe they can try saving some money for doomsday so they don't end up on the Napervlle Sidewalks with Mr. Huber when we are forced to file Chapter 9. It is not a matter of "if" the pension system will IMPLODE but "when!" Those are not my words. Those are the recent words of a financial expert who once managed the Woodridge Police Pension Fund. I believe his name was Gary Menconi and has blogged with us on occasion. The Napergate Man had also made similar comments many years back about the Pending IMPLOSION which now appears IMMINENT.

CIJ

By Experienced on September 17, 2009 1:18 AM
Oh, one more thing to the credit of CIJ. He is correct. The city does read the Potluck. Ms. Smith acknowledged to me during our conversation that she had been following the pension discussions.

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I have always known this to be the case. Two council members that I speak to review them religiously even though they choose not to write. CM Bob we all know both reads them and responds to them sometimes. Hopefully, we will hear from him on the pension system, if they have not imposed a gag order on him. I suspect they are pressuring him to be quiet about this Pension Fiasco. I doubt that they will succeed as he is as independent as a tiger and I think is ready to pounce on the 10 managers that lost us $20.2 million dollars. JFTR, 4 of these 10 Managers are appointed by the Mayor himself.

The city can no longer get a pulse of the community from the City Council meetings as attendence is near 0 due to the arrogant treatment of the citizens by the City Council when they speak. With a few exceptions it is pretty much the City Council communicating with City Staff and rubber stamping each other as fast as possible to get out of there. They even cancelled the 1st council meeting of this month even though to the best of my knowledge they gave no good reason. We pay them to be there and they give themselves a day off without taxpayer permission. We pay them a few hundred dollars for each session and they take in essence half the month off since there are only 2 meetings per month. We also pay their full health benefits to the best of my knowledge which is worth at least 12k per councilman and give them many other benefits. What have they done to investigate the pension mess? So far, nothing! Zilch! Zero!

Did they even review the financial report as Experienced and I did to see the deliberate omissions right before the election! Doubtful they read their 950 page packets even though they are suppose to....lol....

How could you not REALIZE $20.2 millions in stock market losses. Everyone knows most stocks when they go under $3 bucks usually go bankrupt sooner or later. If I wanted to keep my losses from the bubble of 2000-2001 UNREALIZED, I could buy City Hall and implode it just for the fun of it...lol....

Apparently when Forensic Accountant Experienced caught on to them, they immediately REALIZED their losses as is reflected in the latest proposed Operating Budget for the City of Naperville. Experienced should be commended for his research and keeping an open mind about this Pension Fiasco which he did not believe existed when he was blogging with us a while back. It is really good to have such a talented individual on board. Hopefully, Mr. John Q. Public, who is an admirer of Experienced, will also jump on board soon.

I have been very conservative in estimating our pension liability deficit losses. One has to understand that a 20.2 million dollar REAL CASH loss plus 350k in investment fee losses, translates into a projected pension liability deficit loss far exceeding that actual REAL TIME number. While I am no actuarial or forensic accountant, I am willing to estimate our current pension liability deficit loss for both the P and F Pension Funds is now greater than $100,000,000.00. This $20.2 million was suppose to grow through investments and one day be $50 million so it can pay the BIG FAT PENSION of Poster Boy Robert Marshall and many others. Instead, this money is gone...see you...and it will not be able to serve as the desperately needed foundation to reduce the already humongous pension deficit.

I mentioned some companies yesterday that went bankrupt. That means any money the P @ F Pensions had in these companies directly or through mutual funds are gone forever. While chatting at the Tilted Kilt last night, my actuarial friend Becky, reminded me I forgot to mention Countrywide and Washington Mutual Banks amongst those who bit the dust permanently. She claims many pension funds were heavily invested in these banks and since they filed bankrupty the value of their respective stocks is ZERO. The simple translation without dancing is they will never come back...they are gone forever...see you...adios!!!

Thus the dreamer on this blog site who thinks it is all going to bounce back is dreaming or maybe having delusional hallucinations like Mr. Huber. The Nasdaq is 2126.75 at this very exact moment. In 2000 before it crashed it was over 5100. Nearly 9 years later it is still 60% lower than it was despite a massive rally the last 6 months. That is because many companies went bankrupt in that bubble as in this most recent bubble. The Japanese stock market that crashed in 1991-1993 has still not recovered. It is at one third the peak price of the bubble after its own and latest irrationally exhuberant bear rally.

Investing in the stock market does not mean you will have greater gains. It could mean you will have greater losses. The Social Security System refuses to invest its funds in the stock market. The P and F Pension Funds of Naperville continue to invest in the stock market fearlessly and relentlessly in hopes of hitting the promised jackpot.

Does anyone know why?

Because they know that whatever they lose does not come out of their pockets but out of us taxpayers' pockets. Whether we are going to pay this 410 dollars per household lost this year, next year or over a few years, we are going to pay for it. Keep in mind we were already amortizing the $61.4 million in losses and trying to catch up before this Tsunami hit while our Pension Managers were dancing or napping behind closed doors in City Hall instead of researching the stock they bought for the police and fire fighters.

So maybe John Q. Public is right. We won't pay this 410 dollars in one year per household. We will lump it up with the other losses and maybe pay $200 dollar a year per household above and beyond what we already pay in pension contributions, until the year 2033, the year the State has ordered us to be caught up. Will that be enough! I seriously doubt it.

Unless, the City of Naperville changes it ways and methods it will most likely have to file Chapter 9 and end its obligaions to all police officers and fire fighters. Sometimes greed has a way of misfiring or backfiring. It would be poetic justice if those who legally DOUBLE DIPPED their way to ridiculous pensions, one day lost their pensions completley due to a Chapter 9 filing by City Hall. It happened in many California cities. It could happen right here in NaperPerfectVille.

By Anonymous on September 17, 2009 5:56 AM
CIJ, I asked you a straight forward question and you danced around it like your pants are on fire. Let's get rid of Marshall and bring in some other assistant city manager not a retiree from anywhere. How much do we save?

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Trick questions don't work on me buddy. You know the short answer to that question as well as I do.

But the long answer is what makes sense. If you don't allow employees to resign from one dept to only work for another dept in the same City, we save tons of cash we don't even have.

1. First, if a city employee continues working till 66 or 70 we don't have to pay him or her a pension till that age. You save tons and tons of money if you start paying pensions at 70 instead of 50 or 52.

2. Secondly, by not hiring Robert Marshall, after he retires, you send a message to City Employees, if you don't want to retire, keep working because if you retire, we are NOT going to hire you back and get into DOUBLE DIPPING MODE that is very costly for the taxpayers and residents of Naperville.

3. If Robert Marshall is qualified to be a City Manager, he should have left us and became a City Manager where he did not have probable clout and connections. While he may have been an excellent captain in the police department, it is unheard of or at least extremely rare that such an individual would be hired to run a large city once ranked 2nd or 3rd best in the USA as far as quality of life. The man had no prior experience in managing a once prosperous large city. For Heaven's Sake he was a police officer for 30 years.

4. And in my humble opinion, Mr. Robert Marshall was not selected to be the City Manager because Establishment Folks who support legal abuse of the pension system, did not want the spot light focused on the Poster Boy for Double Dipping, since there are many others Double Dipping including at least one member of the City Council.....but his case is very palatable and I will not mention him or her by name.

5. Bottom line is if Robert Marshall who apparently is a very talented and physically fit individual, would have stayed in the NPD and replaced the aging and tired Chief David Dial, we could have all come out ahead. The pension system would be about $85,000 richer per year. This man is very healthy. He can run 26 mile marathons. He will easily live to be 100 years old and cost us $4,080,000 from his first pension.....I have no idea what his second pension that he is working on right now is going to cost the Naperville Taxpayers....thankfully not as much as that economics school teacher who will cost us $17,050,000 if she lives to be 100. Yes, we taxpayers in Naperville are contributing to the 50 something year old economics teacher's pension. We gave her the lottery winning numbers without requiring her to even buy a ticket. Go figure!

6. Was this the purpose of the pension system. To make multi-millionaires out of government employees at the expense of suffering taxpayers who are spending 5-10 million less at Naperville Retailers probably due to the fact they are struggling especially after paying their REAL ESTATE TAX BILLS. If you taxpayers don't wake up soon, your own government will take you down in foreclosure and bankruptcy. Many of my calculated predictions have bore out on this blog site. I do a lot of research and studying before I write. Yes, our P and F Pension Funds are $81.4 million in the hole and my guess is this is only the beginning. Stay tuned my friends. No one is dancing but the officials at City Hall in their closed offices where no one can see them. They are laughing at us all the way to the bank. They are taking advantage of their constituents that they falsely pretend to care for and serve. How shameful! How disgusting!

Now that is not dancing around my friend. That is a straight answer that you need to SWALLOW.

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PS. Since almost all government employees receive pensions, they are for the broken and corrupt pension system that benefits them. You will not get any help from government to fix or end the pension system. The only way to eradicate this pension system is to follow in the footsteps of the Chicago Sun-Times which is running a fabulous series on corruption in the pension system and waking up the Chicago Residents. I just can't wait till the Naperville Sun decides to help Experienced and I to wake up the Naperville Residents. We no longer have Napergate Ads, the Daily Herald is a worthless paper with near 0 circulation in Naperville, so it falls on the shoulders of the hopefully brave Naperville Sun to expose the pension mess to the masses. I hope and pray Sun Officials are up to the task. May God give them the wisdom and power to fearlessly tell their readers the truth and nothing but the truth.

CIJ

On the budget linked above, the pension fund pages in question are:

33(56)
177(206)
250(279)

The first number is the page number of the document at the bottom of the page. The second number is more useful. It is the page number of the pdf file.

I thought that page 33 should equal page 177 and page 250 added together. That doesn't work.

However,

Firefighter Pension Fund Balance, May 1 2007-2008 (page 177)
PLUS
Police Pension Fund Balance, May 1 2007-2008 (page 250)

is 4 dollars off of

Pension Fund Balance, April 30 2007-2008 (page 33)

Either there is another pension fund floating around or they somehow offset the dates by one year. My guess is that there is an offset since the property tax revenues are offset by a year on the 2 sheets (177 and 250) which should add together to match page 33.

Also showing investment income on page 33 as +2,000,000 and huge losses on the other pages doesn't come close to making sense.

12,000,000 in investment income in 2007-2008 (page 33) seems massive. Again, that does not match the individual fund sums.
Something very fishy is going on. Someone may have changed one set of sheets and not the other.

e^(i*pi)

CIJ, I asked you a straight forward question and you danced around it like your pants are on fire. Let's get rid of Marshall and bring in some other assistant city manager not a retiree from anywhere. How much do we save?

Oh, one more thing to the credit of CIJ. He is correct. The city does read the Potluck. Ms. Smith acknowledged to me during our conversation that she had been following the pension discussions.

Have you noticed that during the municipal elections in the Spring and through the seating of the new Council, the proposed City Budget that was made available to the citizens of the City did not reflect the true condition of the pension funds. Instead of the known loses of approximately $10 million per fund, the published proposed document showed a modest increase of $2 or $3 million each. This document was still the one available to the public when I reviewed the actual financials for the funds in July and personally spoke with Chris Smith of the City the second week of July. In our conversation, Ms. Smith was adamant that a budget should not show unrealized loses. That is the information I sent to Chris Magee on July 10, referencing my conversation with Ms. Smith, which Chris Magee acknowledged back to me on July 15.

I had not seen the final budget posted until CIJ referenced it now. What is interesting is that although it is dated May 1, 2009 on its transmittal letter, if you check the date on the pdf file properties for the on-line document you will find that the date that the underlying FileMaker file was last modified is July 28th, about 2 weeks after I called Ms. Smith and complained as to the illegality of the budget document as then existing. [Bring up the document on-line. Right click on the document and click the Document Properties link. Note the Modified date.]

The question is whether or not the city purposely decided to not disclose to the public the true condition of the pension funds during the elections. And, whether the city only changed the document once someone from the Sun started asking questions following my conversation to Ms. Smith and my email to Chris Magee.

I have not had the opportunity to see the budget document that was filed with the county clerks, nor to see the date of filing for that document. I have to be in Joliet this afternoon and plan to stop by the Will County Clerk to check out what the city filed and when.

By Anonymous on September 16, 2009 4:28 PM
OK CIJ, let's fire Robert Marshall. How much money will that save me the taxpayer? I would like for you to detail a response. Thank you.

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No one is stating we need to fire Mr. Marshall. But he was the top man in the city. He could have been a gentleman in scholar and said delay my pension pay-outs until I truly retire. He could have set a good example against DOUBLE DIPPING instead of being the local POSTER BOY for DOUBLE DIPPING while trying to lead the city into solvency. The city could have hired him on the condition he delay his pension pay-outs till true RETIREMENT and saved the taxpayers a substantial amount of taxes, while setting a great example to others who retire for the purpose of DOUBLE DIPPING and not because they are in bad shape or health.

As a Manager of the City and now an Assistant City Manager, he must cringe when he sees the pension system that is writing his checks is $81.4 million in the hole. He must understand the legal abuse of this system is causing the taxpayers he represents each a loss of 410 dollars so he and others who are legally abusing the system can get rich on their backs.

The abuse is both City and State wide. No one is forcing the City of Naperville to start police officers and fire fighters for neary 60k per year that leads to pensions twice as high as many other cities in Illinios. That could be the root cause of why our pension system is worse than say Winfield's or Wheaton's.

The purpose of the pension system was to recruit pubic safety employees at lower wages and not higher wages. So please don't try to tell me the City of Naperville is whistle clean in this ugly affair.

And I do believe Sun Officials are reading what Experienced sent them and I am writing here. Moderator Magee has stated that the Sun will be doing a story about the possible corruption and incompetence at City Hall. He said it is just a matter of time.

So maybe 50,000 residents will read the Sun on line and off line and learn that they just took a 410 dollar beating per household as a result of one year of losses in the Police and Fire Pensions. If that happens I feel I would have succeeded as a Citizen Investigative Journalist and you will have egg on your face. I am trying my best to succeed and I am sure most bloggers by now undestand my deep determination will not go away that easily.

I am NOT here to boost my ego. I am here because I believe in the causes I have adopted. I never wanted a handle or moniker but I was pretty much forced into one to appease my fellow bloggers. Most, like John Q. Public, agreed to no longer attack me if I ONLY used one moniker and that is why I am sticking to one while I fight for my(our) causes. They are holding their part of the agreement and I am holding my part of the agreement while the Moderator keeps law and order on this blog site so we can promote just causes that will eventually bring our real estate taxes down, before we lose each and every one of homes to this PENSION MESS AND FIASCO.

OK CIJ, let's fire Robert Marshall. How much money will that save me the taxpayer? I would like for you to detail a response. Thank you.

CIJ: "Your attempt to hide corruption by mocking me will only make you lose your credibility."

What makes you think I was mocking you? No one is listening.
One of the many, many problems with your position in all of this is that you seem to think that this is a Naper-centric problem, when in point of fact, everyone else long ago figured out that it is a state-based union/springfield/illinois level problem. You can continue to expound on slight variations of your never-ending theme, but the truth of the matter is that even if Naperville decided that this situation was untenable they could DO NOTHING ABOUT IT.
We get that. Why don't you?

GJC...

I put my ear plugs in a long time ago. Now days, when I see a post from CIJ, I just skip over it. I suspect this is also the case for many other bloggers. If I had the money, I would pay-off the pension funds just to be able to move on (and end the noise).

GJC,

Well, we both agree NO ONE IS LISTENING.

But once the taxpayers find out that each household lost 410 dollars in one year to the Police and Fire Pensions, they will LISTEN.

Once the Sun gets the word out, believe me residents will not only listen but be OUTRAGED.

You have to be patient in this world. Patience is a virtue.

No one listened to the Napergate Man for a very long time....but he got the LAST LAUGH when he proved everyone wrong. It took him 10 long years as you may know if you studied the storied history of this town as I did.

If you want to call each homeowner losing 410 dollars this year, a personal hobby horse go ahead and make a fool of yourself.

Soon you will see and soon people will be listening.

Mark my words, my Dear Friend.

Your attempt to hide corruption by mocking me will only make you lose your credibility. That strategy of yours amounts to throwing an egg in your own face.

As far as the complexity and loopholes of the pension system, I am totally and fully aware. That is what I am fighting. That is why I am calling for its abolishment and eradication and for everyone to be treated equally and inserted in the Social Security System that the government set up for the private sector but did not consider good enough for its own employees. Sure, it is not perfect but we can make it better and all be in the same system where we all could be treated fairly.

Are you telling me a school teacher obtaining a $341,000 from this complex system of yours is palatable? Stop defending corruption. Understand there is nothing funny about this economics teacher or Assistant City Manager Bob Marshall milking the system to their advantage all in the name of the law.

CIJ says:
I have been warning of this catastrophe for over 3.5 years on this blog site. No one listened. How many times did I refer to it as the BIG FAT PENSION. People got tired of those words but I repeated them since no one listened. Now we have a $20.5 million additonal loss in one year and you know what.....NO ONE IS LISTENING.

CIJ, that's right, no one is listening. For some reason, you've chosen this as your own personal hobby horse, and very few people care much about the problem, while you continue to go on, and on, and on, and on, and on about it. The same posts over and over again. we get it, you know. You hate pensions, and don't think that you should be on the hook to pay for them.
Really, CIJ, we get it. We do. Some people don't agree with you, other people are put off by the style with which you write. Still others seem to think that there is chance that you're essentially making things up or making a mountain out of a mole hill. For my part, I think that you just don't get how complicated the subject actually is, how tied up in complex negotiations between fairly powerful lobby/unions and the state, as well as other entities.
But, CIJ, no one is listening. No One Is Listening.

By e^(i*pi) on September 16, 2009 8:43 AM
Pension Thoughts:

2) Naperville Firefighter/Police pensions funds. $20 million lost in the last year must be made up by the taxpayer. CIJ: in order for this number to mean anything, you need to figure how much would have been in the fund at this point had there been a conservative investment strategy for the past, say, 10 years.

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Dear Friend,
I am investor myself. I have had money in the banks under FDIC insurance and I have had money in the Stock Market the last 10 years.

I can tell you with assurance that my money in the bank averaging 3-6% the last 10 years made way more than my stock market money. Thankfully, I am only 10% invested in the market the last 10 years. Until my friends from Lucent and Tellabs persuaded me to chase the 1st Bubble of early 2000, I was 100% cash.

So I can tell you with authority if the Police and Fire Pension Managers stayed away from the stock market the last 10 years they would not be in such a precarious position.

Keep in mind before the 20.2 million losses of this last fiscal year, that do not include 350,000 for investment fees(lol) they already had a $61.4 million dollar pension liability loss that mostly came from this 10 year period you refer to.

My feeling is if the Police and Fire Unions want to control their money and invest it in high yield risky stocks, they need to suffer the consequences of their losses as everyone else suffered including myself. It is ludicrous and ridiculous that there are state laws that say we the taxpayers of Naperville must reimburse them for their losses.

The city is planning on taxing the residents an additional $1,344,025 for 2009-2010 to put in these funds in addition to the 21.16% we already put in them. My guess is our contributions will now be over 25% of their salaries based on my rough computations and I still don't think we are going to put a dent in the $81.4 million deficit as the outs exceeds the ins. If this stock market rally is a head fake or a bear rally as I suspect, I believe we can see a $100 million dollar pension loss if our 10 managers don't pull out before it is too late. Just for the record, my guess is the stock market is going to crumble some time before Oct 31, 2009. I am not charging 350k for my guess, so don't come after me if I am wrong.

I have said over and over again you can not collect 9.46% from fire fighters and 9.91% from police officers and then pay them 75% after 30 years for another 40 or 50 years depending on how young their spouse is. If a police officer likes Drew Peterson marries a 17 year old gal and he dies we may have to pay her for 80 more years if she lives to be 97. That is how screwed up the police and fire pension systems are. Don't let them tell you otherwise.

Check that school teacher out who is collecting her husband's pension since he died. She just turned 50 and is receiving $341,000 and she may get this 40 more years if she lives to 90... That is $13,640,000 dollars to one economics teacher. Who do you think pays for her pension....that is right...you and I, the infamous taxpayers. Was the pension system suppose to give one security in retirement or make one a mult-millionaire many times over? Can anyone answer that simple question? How about you, Mr. Magee since you seem to be comprehending the fiasco more than most bloggers?

Now, how can anyone in his right mind support the pension system in government that is corrupt at every level? Are you guys pleased that Mr. Marshall resigned from the city to collect a pension and came back to work for the city to collect a second pension while earning over 150k a year at taxpayer expense all LEGALLY? Since none of you folks can do this in your private corporations, how can you support your City participating in such LEGAL CORRUPTION. The Mafia never thought of anything so corrupt. They would have been jailed if they operated like the City of Naperville or many of our School Districts.

Imagine, Moderator Magee, that you had a pension system at the Naperville Sun. If you were making a 100k, you can resign at age 50 if you started at age 20, with 75k a year. Then you tell your bosses to move you to another department so you can collect a new salary while collecting your pension and building a second pension. I bet you could not imagine that....neither can I.

Your mother newspaper filed bankruptcy and it does not even do those kinds of things such as pensions, let alone double dipping. It probably starts you off at much less than half the salary of a police officer or firefighter. You people at the Sun pay taxes like the rest of us to these corrupt pensions and you are not RAISING YOUR VOICES loud enough. Where is the Opinion condeming this massive inequity and corruption? Join your mother in this battle against government pension corruption. What kind of a child watches his mother fighting and clawing and just stands on the sidelines instead of helping his MOMMIE. Help your Mommie, you foks at the Naperville Sun. I don't mean to tell you what to do, but this PENSION MESS is outrageous and we all have to raise our voices and say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. We can not wait till April 15 to take City Hall back when the next TAX PROTEST is scheduled. They may have armed snipers on the roofs of City Hall to protect their FIEFDOM!

I wonder how the fire fighters and police officers in town feel about that school teacher receieving a $341,000 dollar pension that they are paying for with their hard earned tax dollars on their real estate tax bills. I bet they are cussing on her for getting 5 times what they will get. If not her, at least the School Pension system that has allowed this to happen and which has given them an even bigger black eye.

My feeling is we should give the fire fighters and police officers a contribution equal to theirs and they can put their money in a 401k and invest it as they please. If you make tons in the market give yourselves 150% pensions. I don't care. If you do terrible give yourselves 25% pensions. I don't care. I only care when you come back to me for more money because you blew the money I gave you.

You have 5 yoyos managing the Police Pension Fund. None knew how to yank the money out before the collapse of the stock market. You have 5 yoyos managing the Fire Fighter Pension Fund. None knew how to yank the money out before the collapse of the market. And yet we paid each team about 175k of money to properly manage and they lost our money. Unbelievable! Fire them all. What is the city council waiting for! The taxpayers are tired of taking it up the wazoooo time and time again.

I have been warning of this catastrophe for over 3.5 years on this blog site. No one listened. How many times did I refer to it as the BIG FAT PENSION. People got tired of those words but I repeated them since no one listened. Now we have a $20.5 million additonal loss in one year and you know what.....NO ONE IS LISTENING.

Pension Thoughts:

1) Teachers (TRS): At some point Governor Quinn said that the teachers would may have to increase their inputs into into TRS. Fair? Not sure.

The rate of input into TRS was predicated on people getting a certain percentage of their final 3 years salary as a pension. When districts were piling on 20% bumps for 3 years, this increased the pension by 45% compared to 6% raises for the last 3 years. It is not surprising that any retirement system which is paying out 45% more than was planned would have issues.

Yes, the state has monkeyed with the moneys. Yes investment income has sucked, but the theft from the fund by the end-of-career bumps was unconscionable. When the Illinois state legislature makes a law (6% max bumps) not favorable to a large union group, you know the previous action was horrendously bad.

Where should the money come from? Not sure. Is it fair to make the new teachers cough up more money to pay for the excesses of the past? Is it fair to ask the taxpayers across the state to make up for this egregious behavior? Is it fair to reduce the pensions to what they would have been with 6% bumps? All of these have merits.

2) Naperville Firefighter/Police pensions funds. $20 million lost in the last year must be made up by the taxpayer. CIJ: in order for this number to mean anything, you need to figure how much would have been in the fund at this point had there been a conservative investment strategy for the past, say, 10 years. As much as howling about a $20 million loss is fun, the same amount could be "lost" by taking very low risk investments when the market was charging ahead. I would bet that you wouldn't complain then (much less notice), even thought the same relative amount could be "lost". If you can run the numbers to show what you think the fund balance should be right now, I'd be interested to see your assumptions.

3) Pensions in general. State law is state law. Is it abused? Sure. Should it be changed? Probably. Can we reduce the already promised amounts? I don't think so.

Note to all who compare the 9.8%ish TRS contribution to the 6.45%ish SS contribution. The TRS contribution is not recognized by the IRS as income, but the SS reduction is. Due to the very different tax consequences, comparing the two directly is not correct. Some districts (Plainfield and others) post salary schedules with and without TRS so that the teacher knows what the real payscale is. Furthermore, for most other workers, the employer match for the SS must be factored in as invisible lost wages. For Firefighters/Police, historically the employer has not seemed to figure in the pension cost as part of payroll. It is a separated out item on the tax bill.

For the sake of brevity, corporate and public pensions are different beasts.

e^(i*pi)

If I understood the Police Chief today at the City Council meeting we will only see one or 2 cops downtown until next summer when the schools let out.

Unless, I misunderstood him, he said only 2 police officers are assigned to the downtown beat. All the extras on bikes are resource officers that are just put there when the schools are on break to make sure they get their hours in even when and where they are truly not needed.

What the Chief did not address in response to questions by council members regarding the downtown police is if one or two officers can handle the downtown on busy weekends like Labor Day why do we need 12-17 plus a canine dog on summer weekends? Why are not these resource officers assigned to relieve officers with OT so we can reduce or eliminate our police OT that is costing us taxpayers 3 million dollars each year and putting us in a BIG HOLE exclusive of the PENSION HOLE we are in that was covered up at last night city council meeting. And keep in mind besides the NPD officers we also have Park District Police and North Central College police whizzing non-stop through the downtown especially in the late hours when the hot chicks are all exiting the bars.

I don't think Chief Dial was even aware that many of his officers were leaving their beats and congregating in DT at closing to check out the pretty ladies walking out of the bars and leaving their beat unattended and exposed to robbery which has actually occurred while they were away from their beats. In one case a robber held up 2 gas stations within 5 blocks of each other and got away before the first cop even showed up. He must have been aware that the cops leave their beats as I was aware.

It seems to me reading between the lines, is our Chief of Police is determined to stop his officers from congregating downtown to check out the girls in high heels and mini skirts and is going to keep them in their respective beats where they belong.

We will see how long that lasts.

Chief Dial seems very old and tired to me....almost like he is lacking in energy. He does not seem like he is in full control of his department. He does not see there is no need to have 14 police officers sitting in traffic court in the morning banging up OT. If other departments don't require all their officers to show up, why do we? I can not believe that all other police departments in Dupage County are breaking court rules by not showing up for 75 dollar traffic tickets!!!

I have been ticketed by other police departments. I have NEVER seen cops loitering in jury boxes simply collecting OT unless it was pertaining to a specific case that they knew was going to be a battle maybe due to many prior continuances.

Once I was in the Downers Grove Satellite Traffic Court. I recall seeing hundreds of traffic violators and only one cop that was there to pretty much keep order since I don't recall a Bailiff. I plead Not/Guilty to see what would happen since the cop who ticketed me was not there. They told me to come back in the afternoon but he still was not there. The prosecutor tried to pressure me into pleading guilty. I refused. He asked the Judge for a continuance. He promised the cop would be there next time. There was no cop next time in the morning or afternoon. The prosecutor again recommended I plead guilty and obtain supervision. I refused. At that point he said he would have to get another continuance which the Judge granted him again. When he was not there the 3rd time I showed up, I finally pled guilty with supervision rather than keep coming back and burning gasoline and time.

(From reading the Napergate History, I know that Judges will grant prosecutors up to 9 continuances. I believe in the Korbel Champagne Case 9 continuances were granted before the City finally dismissed the case since the Napergate Man was steadfast in his determination to prove his innocence and kept appearing. I think the Judge finally told the city to put up or shut up.)

Anyway, I was just interested in seeing how the Downer Groves system operates once I got a legitimate ticket for speeding. The way it works is they will wear you down with numerous continuances before they ever call the cop that ticketed you. They save tons of OT that way. I think out of 300 people that day only another person and I plead not guilty. Her because she was trying to fight the system and possibly believed she was wronged and I because I was investigating the system as is my nature.

Basically what I learned is that traffic violaters plead guilty to obtain supervision and want to get back to work ASAP. They can not afford to come back if the city prosecutor wants a continuance. Basically, the City of Naperville can easily save a million dollars or more in OT annually by not making these cops on OT available unless someone is willing to put up with 3 continuances which any Judge would award to a prosecutor he sees in court almost every day. In the 1 in a 1000 rare chance that someone wants to fight the system, a city can call the cop and pay him OT and let that civilian have his day in court to fight his 75 dollar ticket.

Why can't we do what other towns do? I have been ticketed by Lombard and Oak Brook also? I never saw my ticketing officers and just got in line like everyone else, paid my 75 bucks, got my supervision and was happy to get out of there as fast as possible.

I just feel Chief Dial refuses to think out of the box and is set in his ways and despises change. But he does listen. When the City Council ordered him to reduce OT by 5%, he did so immediatley. Now the City Council has to order him to eliminate all OT so we can save 3 million instead of only 150k. He will never change stripes and do it on his own without pressure. The city council must pressure him and push him or he will not produce. He is worn out....very worn out! He needs to retire for his sake and our sake.

Plus the City Council needs to order Chief Dial to use the school cops to give other cops time off so they do not accumulate OT. Bottom line, the Chief indirectly admitted tonight they are not needed in the downtown, by stating there will only be 1 or 2 police officers patrolling the downtown from now till the schools let out again, under questioning by Council Members.

I hate to tell the Naperville Sun anything but since topic came up in the City Council meeting tonight, probably as a result of this blogging, I would like to see if the Sun can suggest to the Chief in an Opinion Editorial that next summmer these school cops be used to eliminate the Police OT instead of checking all the pretty girls in 6-inch high stellatos and hot mini-skirts. Police and cities do respond to press pressure better than civilian pressure. Individuals complaining tend to be ignored, but no city in its right mind ignores the local newspaper when it expresses a strong opinion that 50,000 residents may read or at least glance at.

This is a different era. We can no longer pay cops to check the beautiful scenary downtown. They can check it out on their own time as the residents do. We need to meet our budget without sacrificing the jobs of city employees who are on the bottom of the spectrum and probably do the most work. Can anyone imagine Double Dipping Assistant City Manager Robert Marshall being laid off...keep dreaming. The Establishment will make sure he gets his second pension, rain or shine.

CIJ

Moderator Magee,
I have little doubt you work your buns off for the Naperville Sun.

But I would like to see some other people in the Sun step it up.

Editor Tim West writes a few columns a week that I could honestly write in 10 minutes and maybe 15 minutes if I were to use spell check. I know he also reviews the handful of Letters to the Editor which is probably 1/100th of your load on this one blog site.

Personally, I feel he is capable of produing much much more. If someone could push him a little, we could do a better job of uncovering the incompetence and potential corruption in City Hall.

I know you ask me to be patient. But you can not forget I have been warning about this pension mess for over 3.5 years. I would say that is patience. I was attacked by over 100 blogggers for daring to suggest the Pension System is due to IMPLODE. Doomsday is near and the IMPLOSION is on the horizon. Let us hope the article in the Naperville Sun comes before the pending EXPLOSION. I have never been a fan of after-the-fact reporting. I am a fan of investigative journalism.

If you recall someone in the Sun was going to do an article on heroin use in Naperville. It was never done and I have not said a word in weeks.

I think the reporters at the Sun should ask for assistance on this blog site in doing their stories if they are pressed for time. Many of us are willing to do the necessary research free of charge as long as we can see the results printed in the newspaper and feel we are getting somewhere in bringing the truth to the table.

BTW, I did saw that article. Do you know what happened to the second armed robber who was suppose to be sentenced yesterday? Maybe you can ask Reporter Bill Bird for a follow up. Yes, I understand they lumped the charges together which were all legitimate and not trumped up, but in the end they gave an ARMED ROBBER 90 days and told him go ahead and rob a few more retailers in Naperivlle to support your heroin addiction instead of demanding Dupage Country at least detox this thug before releasing him in civilized society again.

Thank you,
CIJ

CIJ,
Could you do all of us a bit of a favor and stop trying to tell the Sun editors how to do their job? If you want, next time there is an opening you can apply, or you can go to Journalism school and figure it out from there. I think I understand how you interpret your role at this site as a CIJ, but give the Sun and the moderator a break, would you? They're doing their jobs as THEY see fit. If you bring up a point that they want to follow up, then they will.

Why don't we call it Hooterville? You really don't have to look for it because anymore it's right in your face. Age doen't appear to make a difference because it can be seen from 15-70. I'm talking about the blatant display of flesh found in womens attire around Naperville. Who's to blame for this, what I call, festival of flesh? Some might say the internet, others might say it's the current trend or fashion. The plunging neck line if you can call it that, and the alure of sexual overtones that is supposed to attract the male species into the female web of sin is going just a bit to far. Cosmopolitan magazine suggests "if you got em flaunt em", or the phrase from years gone by "The bigger the better the tighter the sweater" Enough is enough. On any given evening in any of the the local watering holes around Naperville the decadent display of cleavage isn't to hard to find. This "Sexy" display as some women may call it doesn't end with teenagers and college hard bodies or just plain bodys. Cover UP. I can recall an uproar about the trend for guys having their "behinds" protruding from their britches.Parents said It was just plain indecent. Well the time has come to turn the tables and put some respect back in being a "LADY". It's the responsibility of the parents to dictate what their child wears. If the woman of the house is going to dress like this for her husband and then take it out in public, don't blame the kids or the internet. The Grand Canyon is in Arizona for a reason, and needs to stay out of down town Naperville.

• Gregory King, 606 Marshall, Bellwood: robbery, imprisonment; driving too fast for conditions, or failure to reduce speed to avoid an accident, charges dropped; disobeyed traffic control device, charges dropped; improper lane usage-change lanes unsafely, charges dropped; disobeyed traffic control device, charges dropped; improper passing on right-drove off roadway, charges dropped; operate uninsured motor vehicle, charges dropped. court dispositions.

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Moderator Magee,
I saw this on the Naperville Police section in your newspaper. This is a name I recognize from the Extra Value Liquor robbery where they were caught red handed after a high speed chase.

Can you ask your reporter to give some details why every charge seems to have been dropped? Can armed robbers now retain highly connected Dupage Attorneys and get off of practically anything. And pay fines less than speeding through a construction zone!

Chief David Dial spends his time writing about Homeland Security. There are 280,000 employees hired by the Feds to deal with Homeland Security. I thought Chief Dial was being paid by Naperville Taxpayers to protect us and not our national borders.

Why is he not concerned about armed robbers in Naperville?

Why is not concerned about the $10.5 million lost in the Police Pension Fund in the last fiscal year?

Personally, I think it is the duty of the local newspaper to keep the Police Chief focused on the job at hand...on the issues at hand...focused on what he is paid for...he has an obligation to the Citizens of the Community and he is letting us down.

He allows excess cops(17 and a canine dog) on one intersection in downtown Naperville and allows 14 cops to sit as potted plants in a jury box in Dupage County week after week even though everyone pleads guilty in the morning session whether cops are present or not. Those who want to fight a traffic ticket, are given an afternoon slot. That is when the respective cop or cops need to show up...and certainly not all 14 of them as very few people try to fight a 75 dollar traffic ticket. They are more than happy to take supervision, keep it off their record, and not let the insurance company find out to avoid having their rates jacked up.

Chief Dial was upset last year when the City Council asked him to cut only his OT Budget by 5%. They should of demanded he cut the entire $3.15 million in OT. There is no need for any OT in the NPD. They need to use the police resource(school) officers in the summer to give other police officers who are about to accumulate OT, time off so we can avoid this $3.15 million of OT that may have been reduced to 3 million if Chief Dial heeded the orders of the City Council.

You have some major stories here. Editor Tim West needs to be assigned to these stories or assign someone capable to them. We just don't want to hear about his personal trip on a boat in Lake Michigan. He needs to start carrying some weight around the news room and flexing some muscle with our City Officials who are no longer serving our community. He has only flexed his muscles once in 36 years I have been following him in the Sun.

The mother of the Naperville Sun is doing a remarkable job holding Chicago Officials responsible for corruption almost on a daily basis. Why can't the daughter hold anyone responsible? I know you pass the information on, Moderator Magee, and have limited powers, but do you know why those in charge of the Sun look the other way and let corruption and incomptence in City Hall continue unabated and rampant?

Please ask Chief Dial to use his bi-weekly column in your paper to discuss local news. He is delusional if he thinks the government has got terrorism under control. As long as 12 million Mexicans can cross the border both ways almost unhindered and undetected, terrorists can infiltrate our country if they wanted to. Who is trying to kid who here?

The only reason there has been no terrorism is the terrorists don't feel like causing trouble right now for whatever reason...thankfully. If anyone believes they can not penetrate our porous borders, they need to join Mr. Huber and hallucinate with him under his plastic cover. Maybe Chief Dial needs to visit him and have a cup of tea with him. They can exchange stories about CIA conspiracy theories.

OK, Chief Dial, let us talk about this unnecessary OT and let us talk about your $10.5 million losses in the pension funds last year. Why don't you tell the taxpayers even though the police union lost the money, the taxpayers are responsible for the losses in your next column. Despite contributing 21.16% last year, they may have to now start contributing 30% plus to bail those Pension Managers out of the mess they got us in. Call for their resignation Chief Dial for losing police officers money and hard earned taxpayer money. Your police officers contributed 9.91% of their hard money into these funds and the Police Pension Managers squandered it in risky investments. Of course no one in the police dept. is upset because they receive full reimbursement from the abused taxpayers in this town who are sleeping right now but I am determined to wake them up and have no doubt I will succeed.

Please don't be part of the cover-up in this town. It will be exposed one day soon no matter how well you or others try to hide or bury it. The truth always comes out as you should well know from your Napergate Experiences.

Pensioned and Proud,

No one belittled you or your service to this great country and its citizens. I don't know why you felt belittled when I stated you deserve a 200% pension for being in the armed services and risking life and limb for your countrymen and countrywomen.

Maybe you felt belittled when I mentioned that an economics teacher is receiving a $341,000 pension benefit. Do you think she deserved that kind of pension at my expense and your expense? I certainly do not! Neither does the Chicago Sun-Times, the mother newspaper of the Naperville Sun.

To be honest with you, if I served in Afghanistan and risked my life for my government and its citizens and they gave a school teacher 17-20 times the pension they gave me, I would also feel belittled. I would feel OUTRAGED. I would feel upset at the corruption in my governement. I would be upset at not being treated fairly by my government for giving a school teacher who did not RISK LIFE and LIMB for her country more than me. I would be raising h@ll.

I don't know why you called me a jerk. I am simply a Citizen Investigative Journalist investigating the pension system. I am reporting facts that I uncover in my spare time. No different than the investigative journalists of the Chicago Sun-Times except I do my investigative work pro bono for this Sun Blog Site.

Just like you defended our freedoms, I am also defending our freedoms. Our freedom to be be free from unnesscary taxation. Our freedom to be free from the actions of corrupt government officials. Our freedom to be able to own a home and not have to be forcelosed on because others choose to DOUBLE DIP at my expense, the expense of my family, the expense of my friends and the the expense of my neighbors. Our freedom to avoid bankruptcy due to WRONGFUL OVERPENSIONALIZATION.

Don't you dare belittle my service or those who have also served so that people like you can make stupid statements about those that have served - many who paid for your freedom to be a crybaby with their lives. It takes special people to do the kinds of things you probably don't have the intestinal fortitude to do - to walk point in a war zone or to run into a burning building or face down a crazed killer with a gun. The only think that ever makes me question my time is was it worth it to do it for jerks like you.

Firefighter Friend,

You talk in circles in order to confuse the readers.

The Sun-Times has done an excellent job of documenting pension corruption. For 99 cents you can review hundreds of pages of data they accumulated regarding pension corruption. They proved their case beyond a reasonable doubt while you are doing nothing but running tongue in cheek....putting foot in mouth as Mr. Huber likes to say.

Now stop talking in circles.

You pension managers and those of the NPD just lost 20.5 million dollars of our tax dollars in this last fiscal year.

Have you asked them to Resign? If not, why not?

Who is going to reimburse the pension funds for this risk taking?

You or the poor Naperville Taxpayers. Obviously the taxpayers because the antiquated Illinois Constitution locks you into only paying 9.46% of your salaries....rain or shine!

We the taxpayers also got beat up in the bubbles of 2000 and 2008. No one is reimbursing us. We need to build our 401k's up all over again with our own money. Why should we reimburse you for your losses that were a result of your risk taking?

We need to take care of ourselves so we can continue living in Naperville and paying our real estate taxes. If you continue making things worse for us residents as you are with your dart throwing gambling investments, we are going to have to lay half the police and half the fire departments off just like the City of Toledo did to survive. Maybe they will have one more death a year which is unfortunate, but at least the City of Toldeo is still solvent, standing and surviving.

Pensioned and Proud,

The laugh is on you. You sacrificed your life for 20 years for 12k or a little more a year to protect your country and its citizens.

You get a pension of 9k or a little more which YOU DESERVE since you worked for low pay and were willing to sacrifice your life for your country. That was the TRUE purpose and meaning behind legitimate pensions.

You should be outraged that an economics teacher of a high school is getting $341,000 while your combined pensions are probably less than 20k a year, if you are so lucky.

The goverment is SCREWING you. They gave it to you up the WAZZZOOOOO and you are CLUELESS.

Wake up my friend and see the INEQUITIES.

Don't try to be a smartalic and make a fool of yourself on this blog site by criticising those who are trying to help you to be treated fairly by the corrupt pensionaires in our government.

We have one casulaty in Mr. Huber who has chosen to mock those who have attempted to help him. We don't need another on this blog site.

No need to laugh at us when you go to the bank. You are one who earned your pension and deserve much more.

========================================================================================================================================

PS. Readers must understand a Marine who works for 12k a year sacrificing his life and limbs for his country, deserves a 200% pension or twice what he or she made and even more. I am in no way questioning those pensions whatsoever.

An NPD or NFD officer who makes nearly 60k starting salary with almost no risk to life or limb, in my opinion does not deserve a 75% pension after 30 years so he can start a new government job and start builing a second pension while collecting his FIRST PENSION and his FULL SALARY from the same entity.....also known as DOUBLE DIPPING.

If I were you, Mr. Marine or Navy Seal or Air Force Pilot, I would review and revise your post in order not to give a stamp of approval to all the corruption that surrounds the pension system at the local, state and federal levels. I consider you the exception who is ENTILTED for truly SACRIFICING your life for your country. I am glad you made it back alive from Iraq or Afghanistan. And if you wanted to make it back alive so you can abuse the corrupt pension system, more power to you. No need to brag about it or make a mockery of others. If anyone deserves to abuse it, YOU DO!!!!

I just bought the Sun-Times while at a gas station.

They have a 3 page spread about pensions.

Some ecomomics teacher who was marriend to a Superintendent in Dupage who passed away is collecting his pension and her pension.

The amount of her pension now is a phenomenal 341,000 dollars. And you taxpayers in Naperville are paying for her pension.

No wonder your taxes are so high and getting higher.

Why am I the only person OUTRAGED in Naperville>?!?!?!?!??

Why are the Sun Editors not also OUTRAGED??!!!????!!!!???

Thanks for passing the information on to your colleagues, Moderater Chris.

I guess they are half asleep like the residents. But sooner or later everyone will wake up on a cot in a homeless shelter with Mr. Huber after they have been evicted due to FORECLOSURE of their homes.

Paying a retired teacher $341,000 anyway you slice it, is an ATROCITY. It is an INJUSTICE to TAXPAYERS.

It is all becoming clear to me.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/-1,091109-pension-millionaires-g.photogallery?index=7

Hmm...$230,000 pension.

CEO of.... Hazard, Young, Attea & Associates

Very nice. Where have we heard that firm's name before?

e^(i*pi)

Dear CIJ:

At 18 I joined the military, served for 20 years and retired with a pension at 38 years of age. After leaving the military, I took the skills I had learned there and became a municipal (not Naperville) civil service worker, staying on the job for 21 years. I left that position and am now employed as a state worker. Between 2 pensions and lifetime medical care from my military service, I could easily sit back and do nothing. I chose however, to work and to be a contributing member of my community. After years of low pay and decades of sacrifice, I earned every penny of those pensions. if they let me work long enough, I can earn a state pension too. I guess you just chose the wrong employment path. I laugh at guys like you every time I go to the bank.

I once had a college professor that told his class.... " Your opinion means nothing to me.... (he would take a short breath).. unless you can back it up. I want to see it cited, in the print media or published. Hear-say, or I heard it from someone, will not do. If you give me hear-say, without support, your credibility will earn you an "F".

To that end I offer..... the mother newspaper's article (from above posted link) that states the following....

"Like a lot of you, I often wish we could just throw a few of the worst abusers in jail -- along with a couple of the scheming school superintendents who figured out how to manipulate the system to become pension millionaires before most people can reach retirement age -- or take away their pensions entirely. But that's never going to fly."

I would like to highlight the last part... "take away their pensions entirely. But that's never going to fly."

NEVER GOING TO FLY. We need to support those that are working on pension reform. Those that are working to correct the ROOT cause of the problem. To that end I support the efforts of the IAFF/AFFI.

I do not and will not support the idea that... If something is broke, throw it away. When my car breaks, I go to the shop and have it fixed. When my roof leaks, I get it repaired. To throw away something that CAN be repaired is just throwing away more money. Keep in mind, the replacement may cost more.

Moderator Magee,

Do you not think it is a news worthy story when the Police Union and Fire Union lose a combined 20.5 million dollars in ONE YEAR when factoring in fees to the managers who could do no better than blind folded monkeys shooting darts at stock charts?

Do you not think this is a news worthy story when these 2 Unions plan on underhandedly billing the taxpayers for THEIR $20.5 million in LOSSES knowing the Naperville Sun is not going to rat them out to the residents?

I think it is time for the Sun to step up to the plate just like the Mother of the Sun has stepped up to the plate. Join your Mom in the battle. Every voice counts....every newspaper counts. We need your help and your paper's help, Mr. Magee... Mr. Ted Slovick use to promise us the bus to City Hall if we delivered the goods. We have delivered the goods, but where is the bus...did Teddy take the bus with him to NCC to convert it to a trailer for Mr. Huber so he would stay off NCC property???

You can not remain neutral when the taxpayers and Sun Employees are taking it up the wazzzooooo over and over again by these pensioners who think double dipping is a game of musical chairs....

Naperville seems to have screwed up so badly that they deserve their 15 minutes of INFAMY!

Firefighter,

Tell me who is going to ultimately pay for the 20.5 million dollars sustained in the last fiscal year in the Police and Fire Pensions?

You or the taxpayers?

Here are a few paragraphs from the Mother Paper in case someone did not open the link....very impressive....time for the daughter to tell Naperville Residents about this $20.5 million dollars the Police and Fire Unions lost in the latest fiscal year. According to the constitution, if they lose the money due to their stupidity, we taxpayers have to build it back up for them. We have to remimburse them for their losses until they recover their lost money in the stock market that they risked on their own. How could anyone defend these unions? I say abolish the unions and abolish the pension funds. If we need to declare Chapter 9, let us declare Chapter 9 and get it over with.

Maybe it is time to return to the age of Volunteer Firemen. We have a good training facility so we can all be trained to work one day a month and let us dissolve our fire department for starters. If the NPD does not shape up, we can dissolve them too. For starters they need to stop racking OT at Dupage County Courthouse when they are not needed. No other town sends dozens of police officer to sit like potted plants in a jury box while collecting OT. Insanity! How about showing up in the afternoon when someone may dispute a ticket and not in the morning when everyone pleads guilty and gets supervision. And if only 1 or 2 want to fight their tickets, send the respective police officers....not all 14 whether they are needed to testfily or not.

Is it not enough we have these resource(school) officers collecting our money in the downtown during the summer while riding bikes? It is busier on weekends now than it was in the summer and 2 cops in undercover black police cars are doing just fine. Why did we need 17 officers and a canine dog on one intersection? The city must understand money does not grow on trees. When a cop is not needed, lay him or her off. Don't put him on a bike just so he or she can get a paycheck at taxpayer expense. No wonder we are now seeing 8 digit budget deficits. Last year it was $11.5 million dollars until the city starting firing the peons that actually work their butts off to make ends meet.

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From the mother Sun-Times...

So here are some suggestions on bringing benefits under control.

We could start by raising the retirement age, which now allows public employees to retire as young as 50 in some government pension systems and 55 in others. That's totally out of line with the private sector, and we can't afford it. Plus, it just encourages the double-dippers who leave one job to take another.

Retirement plans were designed to provide economic security to people when they were no longer able to do their jobs, not so they could double their income at the public's expense.

Next, we could get rid of the automatic 3 percent annual increases for government retirees and replace it with a capped, inflation-based cost-of-living factor.

An alternative possibility would be a maximum pension benefit. The federal Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation protects private pensions up to a maximum annuity of $54,000. We've already got 4,000 public pensioners in Illinois bringing home more than $100,000 a year.

Here's something else that ought to be on the table: taxing these pensions. As it stands, Illinois is one of the few states that don't tax retirement income -- either public or private. In the process, the state forgoes $1 billion in annual revenue, only in part for valid public policy reasons of protecting seniors on fixed incomes.

A qoute from the mother paper on pension reform.....

"I would respectfully suggest instead that if the public employee unions don't step up to the plate and join as advocates for real pension reform in this state, then we're going to need to reconsider that constitutional protection."

If you look at my prior posts, and the links provided, the firefighters union IAFF/AFFI is already stepping up to the plate.

"Most recently the municipal league accused AFFI of working behind the scenes to kill pension reform. The exact opposite is true. AFFI has been in the forefront of reform of public safety pensions.."

"Assembly’s actions has been and to work toward long-term reform. Even the parties that stand to benefit from these measures, like the Associated Firefighters of Illinois, agree that we need to know what the financial impact is going to be to our municipalities and, ultimately, to our taxpayers.”

The Illinois Municipal League has lobbyed very hard to block the IAFF/AFFI from getting pension reform laws passed. The Illinois Municipal League wants to take over the pension system and will stop at nothing to drive it into the ground (and get it at a bargin price).

"we have proposed a requirement that local governments use a standard actuarial formula so that local pension contributions would be consistent and realistic toward fully funding fire fighters’ pensions."

"However, the IML has thus far refused to allow AFFI’s expanded investment authority and actuarial standardization provision to be included in its legislation on ethics and sunshine."

"If the IML had put as much effort into reforming downstate fire fighters pension funds as it has in leaking misleading information to the media, we already would have enacted legislation to correct the problems that still confront us."

I stand behind my posts. I am aware of BOTH sides of pension reform. The IAFF/AFFI are working on reforms that protect the TAXPAYER, as well as the firefighter.

Firefighter Friend,

I read both your links and the link to the excellent Sun-Times article.

While I enjoyed reading the Sun-Times article, my views go beyond that. I agree with the Napergate Man that the pension system should be abolished and we should all be on equal footing in one Social Security System. The only thing that does not make sense with what the Napergate Man suggested 15 years ago is that it makes TOO MUCH SENSE.

Firefighters did not even make the top 10 professions in injuries. So let us not go there. Factory workers look like they are dead at age 52 after 30 years of work. Most fire fighters look extremely handsome, healthy, and fresh at age 52. Read the Sun-Times article and see how government employees retire and collect pensions only to go back and work for the governmenrt again. They also called it double dipping as I did a few years back. The poster child for double dipping in Naperville is Assistant City Manager Robert Marshall. I am sure there are many more whom I don't know about.

I don't read anything from the Illinios Municipal League. The Napergate Man through his writing introduced me to the messed up pension system and I have been reading, inquiring and learning about it while blogging the last 3.5 years on this blog site. I did my own mathematical calculations and came to the conclusion the in's will never match the out's. Unless, firefighters pay 25% in annual contributions and the taxpayers match it with another 25%. And that calculation was before the 20.5 million dollars in losses of the last year.

Use you common sense firefighter friend. You guys pay 9.46% of your salary into this pension system for 30 years. If you live to 92, the pension system has to pay you 75% of your highest salary and not your average salary that was used to collect. Return on investments the last 10 years have been horrifically bad and possibly in the negative. The last year wiped out a huge percentage of this money that was going to used for pension pay-outs.

Did you read the article in the Naperville Sun about all the homeless people in Naperville? By forcing us to pay for your ridiculous pension when most of you are still extremely healthy, you are forcing us taxpayers more and more into foreclosure or bankruptcy.

And JFTR, I don't hate firefighters. I am just using you as an example just like I often use police. I am against all pensions including teachers and post office and those of judges and legislatures.....across the board.

I am agains the pension system. I hate the pension system. I don't even hate Robert Marshall. I don't know him. I just think he is legally taking advantage of a corrupt system that causes my taxes to go up more than my neighbors and I can afford.

Well, that is funny that you want the Naperville Sun to do an article on pensions. Well, I guess the Mother Sun did an article and told you what they think of the pension system. Did you like the article? Of course not. But it was truthful as h@ll even though I think the columist could have done a little more digging and really exposed how bad it is.

Once again I stand for eradication of the pension system from all forms of government. And I don't know a single fire fighter in town so don't accuse me of hating fire fighters. I actually like fire fighters but want them to work till 65 and retire on a pension equal to what Social Security will give them. If the job is strenuous for guys who can still jog 26 mile marathons, please feel free to retire but don't expect a pay-out till age 70. Pursue a job in the private sector.

Is more than 150k for Assistant City Manager Robert Marshall not enough to live on until he turns 70?

It is you who is unwilling to look at the overall picture. It is you who does not addresss my specific concerns. It is you who does not understand that 20.5 million dollars lost this year, is the forthcoming IMPLOSION that the Woodridge Police Pension Manager described so succintly before resigning.

It is you who does not understand we have a 911 call for a 10 alarm fire. The pension system is burning right in front of your eyes and you are unable to put the fire out. Please put the fire out and stop making excuse after excuse. Come up with a REAL SOLUTION to douse this unusual fire.

Thank you.

No hard feelings....this is just a debate..

CIJ

JQP –

No, people around here don’t associate the Nazi’s with the Democrats, but one person associates them with the NPD.

T.B.

From the mother paper, Pension Reform:

http://www.suntimes.com/news/brown/1767137,CST-NWS-brown13.article

CIJ,
You have done nothing to educate yourself on the pension system. You have not looked or "investagated" the links that I provided you. Yes, the pension system is damaged. But, the IAFF is working to address the problems. They are working with our General Assembly to work toward long-term security for taxpayers and firefighters alike.

You are not willing to open your mind and investigate both sides. I hope the Sun does a report on the pension system. I hope that they look at both sides and report the full story. You are only willing to "believe" your side and the propaganda put out by the Illinois Municipal League. This is a much larger issue than you are willing to investigate. Do to this unwillingness to investigate the full issue, your views mean nothing to me.

CIJ, you said.. "While firefighters have minor risk to life(no Naperville Firefighter has been killed on duty for 38 years and no Naperivlle Police officer has been killed on duty for 80 years)"

Are you aware of the number of firefighters, in Naperville, that have been injured in the line of duty? Are you aware of the number of firefighters that have been injured in the line of duty and can no longer work ANY job. I will not disclose the number, but if you were to attend a current pension meeting you would learn about current firefighters that recently have been disabled. For one of these firefighters, not being able to hold his infant child is worse than death.

You are right, there have been no line of duty deaths in Naperville, for many years. You fail to understand that firefighters extensive and on-going training has kept them alive. It is this training that keeps them safe. Knowledge is power and protection. Naperville has a training tower and a full time training officer in charge of this continued training.

You think DEATH is the only gauge of a firefighters job. Again, because of your unwillingness to look at the entire picture, your views mean nothing to me.

Firefighter Friend,

The problem with the pension system, is the pension system. Is that it still exists!

We are in different times. Once upon a time firefighters and police officers were not paid well. Pensions were to entice them to make up for low pay. Nowadays Naperville Firefighters and Police Officers start at nearly 60k a year. The highest paid graduates out of college are engineers at 58k per year followed by accountants at 48 per year. Neither get pensions and have grueling careers before full retirement at age 70.

While firefighters have minor risk to life(no Naperville Firefighter has been killed on duty for 38 years and no Naperivlle Police officer has been killed on duty for 80 years), they do not work as hard as engineers or accountants. They don't have to think as hard as engineers or accountants. Their jobs are not as tedious or boring as engineers or accountants.

The thought that fire fighters should be able to retire at age 52 with a 75% pension, just does not sit well with taxpayers. If you must retire at age 52, get a job in the civilian sector and wait till age 70 to get a full pension that is many times what Social Security pays. Why should fire fighters be treated better than civilians? We should all be treated equally.

The taxpayers increased the pension contributions to you folks and the police folks by nearly 800,000 to 1,000,000 dollars in the last year or 2. Before you paid 9.46% and we paid 21.16%. Now you still pay 9.46% and we may pay easily over 25% if not 30%. We will have to wait for CM Bob to give us the exact percentages.

And despite our massive pension contributions to your pension funds, which are nearly 4 times what our employers make to Social Security, you folks(both Police and FF) have an $81.4 million pension fund deficit before factoring in the 350,000 in fees we paid to your pension fund managers who are not even as good as monkeys throwing darts while blindfolded.

I say end the pension system. Government employees are not better than civilians. What is good for us, should be good for you. You should be in the Social Security System we are in and we together should reform it into a better system.

If we did not have to give government employees so much money so they can live like princes and princesess in retirement at age 52, we could put more money into Social Security. While you criticise S. S, it refused to invest funds into the Stock Market. You and the police union went ahead and lost $20.5 million in the stock market in one year and have the audacity to criticise S.S. Social Security which does not pay out full benefits at age 52. They pay out partial benefits at age 62 and 66 and full benefits at age 70. That makes much more sense than what pensions do. Pensions have to wake up and realize they can not afford to do what they are doing. It is impossible and unsustainable just like the Napergate Man told us 15 years ago. We did not listen THEN and I suspect no one is hearing me NOW.

They also pay out what they can afford. Most S.S. recipients are lucky to get a thousand or two. You folks get 6-8k in most cases if you got one or two promotions.

Assistant City Manager Robert Marshall's pension pay-out is the most ridiculous thing in the world. He works for us taxpayers for over 150k a year and we give him nearly 85k a year for being "RETIRED." And we are allowing him to build a second pension in 8 years so he can even double dip in retirement. All from Naperville Taxpayer money.

Anyway there is no fairness to this broken pension system. You are lucky that the local papers are afraid to take you on and expose you.(I am assuming you are not only a firefighter friend but a firefighter or at least a spouse of a firefighter.) If I owned the Naperville Sun, I would turn every resident against the pension system. I would turn every resident against the police and fire unions who lost 20.5 million of taxpayer money. I would not negotiate with these unions. I would demand they be disolved and start all over again with our police and FF employees.

I would urge residents to take away Home Rule from our drunken sailors who are running this town into the ground. At least we could limit them to 5% increases in wasteful spending instead of allowing them unlimited wasteful spending. We may be able to balance the budget one day.

You folks through your risky investments just cost each homeowner in Naperville 410 dollars on his real estate tax bill. Just for one year of your losses. Do you think the Naperville Homeowner is going to be thrilled when the Sun gets the courage to tell the residents the truth?

I urge everyone to tell your neighbors and ask them to tell their neighbors until we can expose this Cover-Up by City Officials. The Naperville Sun needs to wake up and realize that drunken sailors don't issue PRESS RELEASES when they waste taxpayer money. They are in denial and do not even realize they are drunken while running City Hall.

Anyway I hope we hear from CM Bob soon as he seems to be the only sober member of the City Council who cares about his constituents.

And while the State has a big role to play in this Pension Mess, one can not blame the State for the $20.5 million in losses to our local P and FF pension funds. This was a local decision make by local officials leading to a local CATASTROPHE. So let us not pass the puck to the State. Let us look ourselves in the mirror and take responsibiity.

Let us call for the resignations of the Pension Managers for the Police and Fire Pensions who lost $20.5 million in one year and put the taxpayers in a BIG HOLE. For disobeying the State and increasing the pension deficit instead of reducing it.

Wake up my fellow Naperville Taxpayers. You just took it up the wazzzzoooo for another 410 dollars while you were sleeping and snoring away. Those drunken sailors running Naperville will bring forclosure and bankruptcy to your families and neighbors if you don't act NOW.

I forget to attach the following links to my prior blog entry...

http://www.affi-iaff.org/?zone=/unionactive/view_article.cfm&HomeID=81172&page=Legislative20Updates&archiveyear=2009

http://www.garrett98.com/Media_Releases/pr_09-04-08.html

CIJ,
You asked me for a reply concerning the Naperville Pension issue.

First, Lets define a few different bodies or players in this issue...
Naperville Firefighters Pension Fund,
Naperville Police Pension Fund,
Illinois Municipal Retirement Fund
City of Naperville,
the Illinois Municipal League
the State of Illinois
Illinois General Assembly
Illinois Downstate Pension Fund
IAFF/AFFI (union)

These are all different and separate players in the Illinois Downstate Pension Fund. The Illinois Downstate Pension Fund is governed by laws that the Illinois General Assembly has enacted. The pension funds can only follow the letters of the law, even if those laws are the root cause of pension fund losses.

The Illinois Municipal League has been lobbying our state representives for laws that would bring an end to pension funds THAT ARE NOT UNDER "THEIR" CONTROL.

I have provided a link to the IAFF/AFFI website page that has "THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS STORY." Some quotes from the IAFF/AFFI board that my suprise you...

"Most recently the municipal league accused AFFI of working behind the scenes to kill pension reform. The exact opposite is true. AFFI has been in the forefront of reform of public safety pensions.."

"Therefore, as the legislative deadline approaches, we will call on the General Assembly, in cooperation with the Illinois Municipal League and the Associated Fire Fighters of Illinois, to authorize a comprehensive, bipartisan and objective study to seek answers to funding gaps in fire fighters’ pensions."

"Furthermore, both agreements contained an increase in the employee contribution."

"Our package aims to address inflation in unfunded liabilities in some of our local funds. Our legislation also restricts a municipality’s ability to hire its own actuary, and use unreasonable assumptions when requesting their annual levy for our funds."

PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE LINKS THAT I HAVE PROVIDED. The AFFI/IAFF link entries are in reverse order. You will need to page down to the first entry dated February 29, 2008.

The second link I have provided is a press release from State Senator Susan Garrett.....

“Our association has worked closely with Senator Garrett to enact meaningful reform for public safety pensions in general, and for downstate fire fighters in particular. House Bill 5088 represents a good faith effort on the part of the fire fighters and the General Assembly to work toward long-term security for taxpayers and fire fighters alike.”

Assembly’s actions has been and to work toward long-term reform. Even the parties that stand to benefit from these measures, like the Associated Firefighters of Illinois, agree that we need to know what the financial impact is going to be to our municipalities and, ultimately, to our taxpayers.”

PLEASE NOTE THAT THE FIREFIGHTERS UNION AFFI/IAFF HAS STATED SEVERAL TIMES "SECURITY OF TAXPAYERS" AND "FINANACIAL IMPACT.... TO OUR TAXPAYERS."

CIJ

I am not exactly sure where Sikich was coming from. Again, IMRF is a state-wide fund. Sikich in Exhibit B-2 shows this figure as of 2007 and relates it back to IMRF's individual audit. http://www.naperville.il.us/emplibrary/fy08cafr-financial.pdf page 71. IMRF's audit shows that at the end of 2007 they were 96.1% funded not 89.5%.

http://www.imrf.org/pubs/annual_reports/2007_popular_report.pdf on page 3.

http://www.imrf.org/pubs/annual_reports/2007_actuarial_valuation.pdf on page 17.

How it can allocate a higher percent to Naperville I don't know.

I know 2008 is down for IMRF.

Illinois
Municipal Police Firefighters'
Retirement Pension Pension
Actuarial accrued liability $ 119,885,473 $ 111,303,578 $ 103,206,762
Actuarial value of plan assets 107,283,568 76,793,651 76,272,686
Unfunded actuarial accrued
(UAAL) 12,601,905 34,509,927 26,934,076
Funded ratio (actuarial
value of plan assets/AAL) 89.5% 69.0% 73.9%

========================================================================================================================================

The above is from last years reports. The police and fire pension deficits are exactly as CM Bob posted for us to view. About equal to the $61.4 million number I have been using for the last year.

The unfunded portion of the IMR is $12,601,905 if I am reading the numbers correctly which I believe I am.

The link is http://blogs.suburbanchicagonews.com/newsblog/2009/08/whats_on_your_mind.html#comment-96130

It is on page 62 in a chart form.

Could you provide a link to your data? It is quite interesting. Last time I checked I could not find anything posted with a date past April 30, 2008. Where did you find it? It checks out with the information from my Council Member friend so it seems like this information is now CONFIRMED from more than one source.

Maybe the city is coming clean now that you exposed them. Not sure! You can not hide a $20.2 million loss in the pension funds for too long.

According to the City of Naperville, its IMR is only 89.5% funded as of 12/31/2007. Do you have a more recent year in which it shows the City came up with this 12.6 million deficit. With the city in the hole in more ways than one and with over 30 million out in debt, I doubt it would have had the ability to eliminate the IMR pension deficit. But I am not an expert and could be wrong even though so far I have been right with my predicitions based on what the Napergate Man taught me and what I learned on my own. At least the Police Pension Manager of Woodridge also saw this coming and I quoted him serveral times. How come our Pension Managers did not see this IMPLOSION coming? Were they sleeping behined the wheel? Should they be terminated based on these humongous losses?

This pension system is simply not feasible. The in's will never equal the out's. And the situation just took a beating in this last year. Imagine the City was under direction and order by the STATE to reduce the pension deficit. And what do they do....increase it by $20.2 million in one year. How in the world can we eliminate this huge pension deficit by the year 2033 if we continue in this wrongful path?

Go figure! If this is not an IMPLOSION in the making, I don't know what is. If the Naperville Sun ever hired me for minimum wages as an investigative reporter and gave me one full page each edition for my reporting, I would force every City Official related to this mess to RESIGN immediately or face PROSECUTION for GROSS NEGLIGENCE.

You don't screw around with taxpayer money. You don't make risky investments and expect the taxpayers to reimburse you. These folks are acting like Bernie Madoff. The states attorney should look into Naperville Officials and see how many he or she can indict for this $20.2 million of atrocious abuse of hard earned tax payer money.

By Citizen Investigative Journalist on September 11, 2009 9:50 PM

If they each lost 10 million as you state that is very very frightening. This puts us at an $81.4 million pension deficit loss besides the 12 million non-police and non-fire which I would not be surprised is much worse.

**************************

I am not sure where your $12 million comes from. IMRF is a funded by the participating governmental bodies on a state-wide basis. That fund was 100% funded at the beginning of its previous fiscal year. It informed each participating governmental body how much it needed extra this year to make up for the loses it sustained in the recession and the city budgeted that amount in it's current budget.

CITY OF NAPERVILLE, ILLINOIS
Firefighters' Pension Fund
Combining Statement of Changes in Plan Net Assets
Twelve month period ended April 30, 2009
Fire Pension Fund
Additions:
Contributions:
Employer – property taxes
$3,222,346
Employee
1,601,317
Reimbursements
132
Total contributions
4,823,795
Investment income:
Net appreciation (depreciation) in fair value
of investments
(8,750,504)
Interest and Dividends
(1,057,744)
Total investment income
(9,808,248)
Less investment expense
170,941
Net investment income
(9,979,189)
Total additions
(5,155,394)
Deductions:
Benefits
2,107,187
Refunds of contributions
60,184
Administrative expense
143,024
Total deductions
2,310,396
Net decrease
(7,465,789)
Net plan assets held in trust for pension
benefits, May 1, 2008
76,272,686
Net plan assets held in trust for pension
benefits, April 30, 2009
$68,806,897

CITY OF NAPERVILLE, ILLINOIS
Police Pension Fund
Statement of Changes in Plan Net Assets
Twelve month period ended April, 2009
Police Pension Fund
Additions:
Contributions:
Employer – property taxes
$3,215,764
Employee
1,676,571
Miscellaneous-reimbursement
10,306
Total contributions
4,902,640
Investment income:
Net appreciation in fair value
of investments
(8,146,925)
Investment income
(2,222,902)
Total investment income
(10,369,827)
Less investment expense
172,119
Net investment income
(10,541,945)
Total additions
(5,639,305)
Deductions:
Benefits
2,305,957
Refunds of contributions
27,774
Transfer to Other Pension Funds
0
Administrative expense
82,182
Total deductions
2,415,913
Net increase
(8,055,218)
Net plan assets held in trust for pension
benefits, May 1, 2008
76,793,651
Net plan assets held in trust for pension
benefits, April 30, 2009
$68,738,433

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

According to a Council Member friend, the Fire Pension Fund Management lost $9,808,248 this last fiscal year. This number is preliminary and not audited yet.

According to the same person, the Police Pension Fund Management lost $10,369,827 this last fiscal year. This number is also preliminary and not audited yet.

More details to come later tonight hopefully.

This should be a breaking story for the Naperville Sun. I urge my fellow bloggers to put pressure on the Sun and ask them to stop covering up for our government officials. Not to rely on their tailor made press releases that paint a rosy picture that is not really there. They are ruining our town. First they waste our money like drunken sailors. Now they invest their money that we gave them like drunken sailors and lose it. How sad!

And they are going to ask you taxpayers to reimburese them for their losses. Please say NO, NO, and NO to them. Never again!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Firefighter Friend,

I really think you miss the point. Social Security is funded 7.65% by the employer and 7.65% by the employee. The government does not contribute a red cent to this fund. We fend for ourselves.

It is not the greatest of plans. In order to receive a full benefits one has to wait till age 70. And at the point, one may receive a thousand or two in benefits if they are still alive.

Your firefighter pension fund is funded 21.16% by the taxpayers and to add insult to injury despite this massive subsidy, if Experienced is right, you or your friends lost another 10 million dollars in one lousy year. Firefighters pay a little over 9% of their wages in contributions.

The fire fighter fund can not afford to pay your friends 75% of their final salaries after 30 years of work despite the generous contribution of the taxpayers. While S.S. is weak, if it had to pay up at age 52 instead of age 70, it would have been very very broke a long time ago.....most probably bankrupt. If it had to pay 7k in benefits instead of 1K or 2K, it would have also been very very broke a long time ago.

S.S. did not take on any high risk investments. But the Fire Union and Police Union took on high risk investments. It is not fair for them to lose 20 million and ask the taxpayers to kindly reimburse. It is really getting old and taxpayers do not have the money to continue subsidizing this messy madness of BIG FAT PENSIONS.

You as a friend of fire fighters need to say to your friends, enough is enough. The civilians who are making these 21.16% contributions can not afford to go any higher.

The fire fighters if they decide to continue banking on 75% payouts need to triple their contributions from 9.41% to 28.3% and see if that will do it. It is unfair to come to the struggling residents and ask for any more hand-outs.

If you don't want to increase your contributions, stop expecting a pension at age 52 of 75% after only 30 years of laboring. Maybe if you only expected 25%, we could afford your folks with our 21.16% contributions to your funds on an annual basis.

Rather than criticise S.S. which we know is a mess, please provide me with a solution to deal with the Police and Firefighters potentially $81.4 pension deficit which apperars to get worse by the years despite state orders that necessitate it become better.

CIJ....

If you don't like under funded and IMPLODING retirement funds, why aren't you complainting about Social Security. Social Security is in FAR worse shape than ANY pension fund.

Just a few quotes from an article in US News and World Report, dated May 13th, 2009

http://www.usnews.com/money/personal-finance/retirement/articles/2009/05/13/what-social-securitys-underfunding-means-for-your-retirement.html

"The Social Security Board of Trustees report found that program costs will exceed tax revenues in 2016, a year sooner than predicted in last year's report. The trust fund will be exhausted in 2037, four years sooner than the 2008 estimate."

"there is some uncertainty about whether there will be tax increases"

"Social Security currently replaces about 41 percent of preretirement income for most Americans when they retire."

"Americans without traditional pensions who want to maintain their standard of living after retirement need to save whatever amount they need above that on their own. We don't know exactly how the government will recalibrate the retirement system to fix the shortfall, so younger Americans can't calculate precisely what their retirement benefits will be."

It should be noted that a person that is collecting a pension usually does not qualify for Social Security. If by chance a person does pay 40 calander quarters (10 years) into the Social Security fund, (minimum requirement) they would still not receive any Social Security do to a reduction clause in the law. This means that a person that is in a pension plan, and at some point in his life pays into Social Security, they are paying YOUR Social Security Benefits and get NOTHING in return.

"The Obama administration has said it does not have plans to raise the retirement age and instead favors plans to raise Social Security payroll taxes"

"Medicare's funding ailments are expected to occur even sooner than Social Security's. Projected annual assets for the hospital insurance portion of Medicare are expected to exceed expenditures by 2012."

If you don't like pensions CIJ, maybe you should take a good look at Social Security. It seems to me that people receiving pensions are going to get taxed up the wazoo by the Obama administration just to pay for YOUR Social Security benefits. I think it's time to revolt against paying taxes for YOUR underfunded, imploding retirement system..... Social Security.

I;m trying to do what God wants all of us to do and that is to serve others. So, there is a school in Kenya East Africa that I'm trying to help. It is a primary school, and some of the children have special needs. The children are in need of school supplies, book bags, shoes, books, children books, school books, socks, and I need help to take care of some of their needs. They also need clean water, food, etc. I'm only one person and I can only do so much by myself and this is why I'm reaching out to others. Help me to help them, please.

Experienced,

Thanks for the information. As you recall from our long debates I always suspected something smelled rotten.

I think you were mislead to believe by someone, that the investments of the police and fire pensions were not risky and mostly in safe securities such as cash and municipal bonds.

I never felt this was the case as most pension funds get involved in the risky stock market in an attempt to juice up returns.

If they each lost 10 million as you state that is very very frightening. This puts us at an $81.4 million pension deficit loss besides the 12 million non-police and non-fire which I would not be surprised is much worse.

So we are not to far off from having a $100,000,000 pension fund deficit I predicted will happen soon.

Keep in mind this happened after the State ordered us to reduce the deficit immediately and have it pretty much wiped out by the year 2033.

What it boils down to is this:

Are 144,400 Naperville Residents willing to allow 1,100 city employess and staff become fat on their backs? Almost every resident is struggling and these pension pay-outs are no longer palatable or affordable.

The way I understand it is the police and fire pension fund managers are allowed to gamble their funds in hopes of getting a better return. If they gamble and lose, it does not cost them a penny since we the taxpayers have to come up with the 75% pensions upon retirement rain or shine for our police and fire fighters after 30 years.

I have been saying this pension system is broken for 3.5 years. The Napergate Man first exposed it was broken in the mid-ninties and explained why. Gary Menconi who was the police pension fund manager in Woodridge claimed the police pension system will one day IMPLODE. I quoted his remarks many times as I believed him.

I am afraid we are on the verge of an IMPLOSION. The Napergate Man could not wake the residents up. swho kept up the legacy of the Napergate Man could not wake them up either. I could not wake them up.

Something tells me if the Naperville Sun tells this horrific story, the residents will finally wake up and there will be definite resignations in this city for gambling away hard earned taxpayer money meant for pensions in a very risky manner.

CIJ

Although the budget that was passed in April said that the funds would have an estimated $2 and $3 million dollars in increased assets at the end of the fiscal year, the funds actually had lost over $10,000,000 each as of the end of December and were about at the level at the end of the fiscal year. In my opinion, contrary to law, the city failed to disclose those facts in the proposed budget document. I haven't looked at the budget that was filed with the county clerks, but it is my understanding that the filed document does not cure the deficiencies in the proposed document--and it may be even less detailed. You might ask your councilman friend if the administration disclosed to the council the degree of loses prior to the April vote or not. Finance said that the quarterly reports were given to the council, but I didn't see them in the agenda packets. If they were given to council, it was done outside of the normal disclosure of reports in the agenda packets.

The failure to disclose the loses in the adopted budget leads me to believe that any levy for the two funds based upon the budget document will be subject to protest.

Experienced,

It is hard to read between your lines or comprehend exactly what you are saying.

But you know better than anyone else, I have been on record that our pension system was going to IMPLODE in our faces.

I suspect if it did not already IMPLODE, we are getting closer.

Keep in mind we are suppose to be reducing it and not increasing it.

I also am on record stating despite state orders to reduce, we will not be successful, and probably if not certainly increase the pension deficit.

I do hope the Naperville Sun gets on top of the story. This is a very serious story if one comprehends the financials of the City of Naperville.

If police and fire unions are persistant in their unaffordable demands, we may have to take the path of the City of Toledo and lay half of them off. We may have no other choice if, for example, the pension system reached 70 million not including the non-police and non-fire, which I believe was 12 million in the hole, nearly 2 years ago when they last posted.

Experienced,

Wow! This sounds like a big story. Have you tried passing this information on to CM Bob Fieseler? He seems like the type who'd actively look into it. I'd also like to remind you that there is more than one newspaper that covers Naperville....

-JQP

By Citizen Investigative Journalist on September 11, 2009 12:55 AM

Could you kindly post them again?

********************

I didn't post them.

The city really screwed up the legal requirements for the preparation of their budget in light of the financials and I forwarded the info to Chris along with an explanation of what the city did wrong. The mistakes are egregious to the point that in my opinion they will threaten the legality of any levy adopted in reliance on the budget for the two pensions. Because I thought it would be substantially newsworthy, I sent it to Chris hoping the Sun would recognize the fact and complete the story and Chris would at least get an "attaboy" out of it--kind of a repayment for all the grief we cause him. I guess I was wrong about the reaction by the Sun. Hopefully, Chris has sparked new life in them.

In my opinion, people should seriously consider protesting the police and fire pension portions of their tax levies next year. You know the large property holders will. The city could lose a fortune in uncollected taxes.

• The City’s total debt increased by $32.3 million (or 35.5%). The City issued the 2008 General Obligation Bonds.

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If you thought only the Feds were getting in further debt to the Chinese, the City of Naperville managed to increase its debt in one year by 32.3 million dollars. That is $646 per household in additional debt based on 50,000 units in Naperville. Did anyone ask your permission to borrow this kind of money to spend our money on such things as double dipping such as in the case of Assistant City Managerand former Police Captain Robert Marshall, who is gainfully employed by us while collecting a pension from us? And he is working on qualifying on a second pension while you folks are struggling to pay your semi-annual real estate tax bills.

Somehow, I feel the current pension system is draining all levels of government including the Federal, State and Municipal.

The people in power control the situation and they are not going to vote the eradication of their pensions no matter what. Vote, whomever you will into office, and they will also not vote to eradicate their newly founded gold mine retirement pension. The system tempts and corupts immediately upon being sworn in after being elected.

We have a "lose lose" situation where everyone needs to go bankrupt before they wake up. We need the Chinese to stop loaning us billions of dollars so we can expose how deep the problem of solvency has become in this country.

And hopefully no one will buy Naperville Municipal Bonds so we can ween our City Officials off the bottle once and for all and ask them to live within their means which does not include ridiculous subsidizations such as retirement at age 50 with 75% plus in pension benefits at the expense of taxpayers.

Kind of snarky for Lando Calrissian to call into question someone else's name, isn't it? What does that mean, anyway, to say it is "Cinemax?" Will someone please explain?

Also: I don't see what Thom Higgins has to do with any of this. Why can't you people/haters (and you know who you are, Davitt et al) just leave the man alone? You tried to poison our educational heritage with your macacca, and the bigger man smacked you down. Now get over it already! I have been reading the Sun for 9 years now, and Thom Higgins is the only person in town who stands up for the plain Janes and John Does of Naperville. We should name a street or fountain after him.

It's Dawn DeSart, not Dawn Dessert. The name is fairly normal, not Cinemax if you get it correct.
Whether she is ready for such a political position, that is definitely debatable.

A Democrat flunkie for Dawn Dessert and some other guy who is running for county board asked me to sign her petition for state representative at the parade. Dessert seems decent enough (maybe a little bit slick with that "made up" Cinemax name), but I couldn't help think that we have been down this path before. Democrat, eh... Is she another outsider who wants to tax us into the poorhouse? I'll do what I always do - read what sneaky THOM HIGGINS writes and vote AGAINST whoever he is FOR. It is the only I know of to make sure that Naperville remains a safe place to raise a family.

T.B. wrote:

Is there really an “Indiana Jones fan club”? It appeared to me to be a bunch of guys who wanted to walk around dressed as Nazis and they could justify it if one of them was also dressed up as Indiana Jones. The whole thing seemed creepy.

Those may have been Obama supporters, if you can believe some of the stuff written on the blog about his speech to school children.

;-)

How about a community discussion about mandatory-random specimen testing of ALL Naperville employees,not just the PD> This would include political officials.Sound good to anyone??

On a different note…who watched the parade on Monday?

Is there really an “Indiana Jones fan club”? It appeared to me to be a bunch of guys who wanted to walk around dressed as Nazis and they could justify it if one of them was also dressed up as Indiana Jones. The whole thing seemed creepy.

And just what does this have to do with Labor Day? Though I concede many of the parade entrants don’t have a tangible tie to Labor Day, this just seemed odd.

T.B.

New topic.. I would like to ask a question to any college financial aid guru's out there. Can a student of divorced parents use either parent when filling out financial aid forms? It seems obvious that you would use the parent that is less "well-off" in order to capitalize on the grants available. Is that wrong? The forms say to use the parent that has given them the most support in the last year, but how can you do that when custody is 50/50. Appreciate any input.

Ida

Actually the taxes should go up because the owner should lose the homestead exemption of $3500. In actuality, the assessor, county clerk and treasurer have no idea that the house is no-longer owner occupied and do not take away the exemption.

This inquiry concerns taxation of homes. Is everyone treated equally? I have a neighbor that has moved out of town. Their home has been on the market for over two years. It has been sitting vacant all the while. They are still paying property taxes on their home here in town while living elsewhere. It is my understanding that when a builder tears down a home and puts a new house in its place they only pay taxes on the value of the vacant lot. Is that correct? If that is correct, why can`t a home owner who`s house is for sale sitting vacant pay less taxes like a builder does. THe builder takes tear down homes off the tax roles and can re-build a more expensive home that appreciates in value over time without being taxed on their investment. Then when the new home is sold, it goes right on the tax role. Seems to me that either they both should be taxed or neither be taxed. Whats good for the builder should be good for the absentee home owner. Any thoughts on this topic? Let me know if I am wrong. Appreciate the input.

Additional from Anonymous on August 28, 2009 11:10 AM :

Oops! I forgot one of the most important items

The supporterss of HR 3200 (and the rest who are demanding we blindly accept the current bill, or what some refer to as Obamacare (though it is really more KennedyCare) keep repeating the canard that the insurance industry is missing competition and the Fed would provide it, thus improving pricing. The theory is that the Fed would be so darn efficient it would drive costs down and the Insurance industry would have to follow. Kinda like the Post Office efficiency, I guess!

Guess what, chillens ---- the best competition, a move that would within 24 hours of being enacted drive rates down, is to open up state lines for competition!

The best part is that this wouldn't require a new law, just some diligence by the ICC.

To: By John Q. Public on August 27, 2009 10:43 PM

What are the problems with HR 3200 and the HealthCare reforms being advertised?

Simple: It wants to replace a flawed system (our current one) with a failed system (anyone taken a really close look at Medicare/Medicaid/Department of Veterans Health, etc), lately?) The reforms being proposed have glaring deficiencies that go beyond the hubris and dogma of deficits, growing government, and attempts to grab power.

Our politicians are trying to force-feed 40 and 50 year old oft-failed solutions to fit our current-day problems (which they have yet to actually define!)

To accomplish this, our politicians need to first scare the pants off of us so we will accept anything they pass. Instead of defining the problem, they take the easy, and scariest , path by repeating as often as possible that our care is substandard and beating the drums of uninsured Americans. This is flawed because the issues, if defined properly, consists of coverage, care level, cost, and accessibility --- all are intertwined.

First, let’s look at coverage --- This is where the "number of uninsured Americans" argument begins. We all loosely accept, and throw around, an uninsured number of about 47 million. A closer look at this number reveals the following:

When you back out the low estimate of (7) illegal immigrants, (10) who earn +$75 k/annum but prefer to not buy it, (3) who also can afford it but ignore it (such as "invincibles"), (14) already covered by other programs (Medicaid/Medicare/Schipps, etc) but for some reason have not signed up), and the (1) listed as uninsured but over 65 years of age, we are left with about 12 million legal Americans uninsured. Of these 12 million, 8 million have none because they lost a job which statistically 70% will replace within 4 months.

Final number of uninsured Americans? $4 million. Hardly a small number, but a manageable one that does not support ruining our entire system. So why is the entire debate to date centered on coverage? Because it is emotional & scary!

Second, level of care: The level of care in the U.S. is acknowledged everywhere in the world (with the obvious exception of the left side of the United States Congress!) as being the best. This is true because of our specialized care (cancers, et.al.). Can it be better? Should it be better? Yes! Are costs too high? Yes! If we cut costs could we make the care even better, especially at the non-specialized levels? Yes!

So we need to ask ourselves, why is everyone in such a tizzy over healthcare if our care is so damn good? Since our Congress has a hard on for insurance companies (don’t we all!), they are trying to narrowly define the issue only as coverage so that the Fed can become, over time, our insurer. Th issue of care has been either ignored or so narrowly defined as to onloy be addressed through the coverage issue (which can’t be done! Remember, ALL of the issues are intertwined)

Third, costs: The current HR 3200, and the debate itself, at this point, truly ignores cost. Without tort reform and changes to malpractice coverage, cost will never be addressed. However, it is not this simple! Accessibility (defined below) also affects cost as the simple rules of supply & demand apply to healthcare, too..

Fourth, accessibility: We have about 800,000 doctors in the U.S. and have a net gain each year of about 1%. This means that we have a shortage of doctors! As long as there is a doctor shortage, there will be a problem with accessibility regardless of WHO provides coverage. The doctor shortage is even more acute, and care/cost affecting, when it is broken down to geography and practice type (ie othopods versus gynees vs OB, etc). We have many areas of our country that are basically medicall deprived for these reasons and it needs to be fixed. Anything on this in HR 3200? Nope! Yes, I read it, and it is not addressed.

I will add that there are other things that make our system susceptible to attack. The issues of getting accepted for coverage, of dropped coverage, of portable coverage, of tax status of coverage, can ALL be addressed with a simple law, or laws, that would direct the insurance industry. This really is simple stuff, people!

Overall, this is a manageable issue and we would be better served by reforms which address all of the issues and which include tax subsidies for all Americans for healthcare ( not just corporations and businesses), getting all who qualify for CMS services signed-up, providing more encouragement and access to medical school, and providing Federal malpractice insurance for all doctors practicing in America, and passing simple laws to direct the insurance industry. Also, it is obvious that we need to include our immigration policies into the reform solutions as the two issues are intertwined with at least 7 million uninsured illegal immigrants

Only after all of this is done, and given time to take affect, should we EVER consider nationalizing 16 - 18% of our economy under the Federal Government.

Glock 22,

So what specifically about HR 3200 has you so convinced that we are going to end up like Canada?

-JQP

JQP: HB 3200 is THE bill. The entire health care system is not broken. You need to solve the problem of a few million-not rearrange what 250 million now have. But what is most troubling is you seem to imply to me in your post that some kind of health care for everyone is better than none. Even if it is substandard health care and of lesser quality than what I can get for my dog. This is simply baffling. And simply unacceptable. I do not understand how you can be proud of health care that is second rate or less for EVERYONE. But whatever the solution, it needs to be considered, well thought, debated and not rushed through Congress to appease some political agenda.

Glock 22,

There are a lot of different ideas being bandied about to improve health care in the U.S. A single-payer system is just one of them, and it does not have a lot of support. You can dispute the numbers (47 million or 10 million), but no one disputes that millions of U.S. citizens go without health care coverage at some point because they simply can't afford it. Badmouth the Democrats all you want, criticize the various proposals all you want, but don't you think it's about time we did something to ensure that no one has to go without health care coverage in this country?

-JQP

I hate the way people over drink on the weekends in downtown Naperville. It makes going out with my family less enjoyable.

Over the past week, the big government democrat crowd has been writing letters to the editor favoring big government monolithic health care. Prevously I posted about my dog getting in to see the vet in the US faster than humans can see doctors in the UK and Canada. My dog saw the vet on Monday and is now scheduled for ACL knee surgery on Friday. I then Googled "Delay for ACL Surgery Canada" and found an interesting article by William R. Rennie MD at a medical symposium in Winnipeg, Canada entitled "Delay for ACL Surgery: Are we Giving Way to Lesser Results". In it he writes patients waited on average 422 days from initial medical visit to reconstruction and 251 days from the time they were approved to surgery. It is simply appalling that any government health system provides lesser timeliness and standards of care for humans than dogs get in the U.S. I think it takes a certian kind of hatred or jealousy of your fellow man as a pre-requisite to be a believer in the democratic party. Or perhaps some sort of mental deficiency?

Thanks Moderator Chris...for the links. The Sun looks like it intends to do better than the Herald on this issue. Let's see how it all plays out.

Why does the Sun not cover the bus transport problems in D204?

The problems have been significant per other comments on this blog. It seems very strange, almost deliberate. Did D204 promised no interviews unless they fell into line with D204 news releases like the Daily Herald apparently has done?

That is what the Daily Herald appears to have done. Their editor went on and on about how wonderful everything went at MVHS this week...which was fine until their editor crossed over the line repeating some numbers (obviously spoon fed) about how the cost to date of the new school was $124 million (amazing, right on budget and equal to the 2006 referendum amount - how amazing the planning!). I feel good as a citizen. My tax dollars having been smartly spent right?

In reality the actual estimate of the MVHS contruction is now over $140 million, but will we ever really know the final numbers? Will the truth be told? The taxpayers are skeptical after the pack of lies spewed forth over the last 3 years. But confidence is high that we will all be told (via a smoke and mirrors effort), that it's all covered - not to worry about a mere $16M or even $25 million.

But the Daily Herald editor did not stop there, and went on to say the actual cost of land at MVHS was only $190,000 per acre compared to about $250,000 at the Brach-Brodie site (the err uh "originally planned site"). Interesting.

However, there are quite a few red flags here. Why is per acre costs being said today? Is this so we can all feel good about the wise economics of the site selection, and that D204 did the best thing for the district?

Let's review the facts - $19M paid for 82 acres = $231,000 per acre for the MVHS site - Not the $190,000 reported by the Herald. The exact figures are probably slightly different, but not much. So what is the $41,000 per acre savings Daily Herald Editor? Did you just print what you were told to print? Is that what suburban papers do now? The Sun must also take note, and be a real paper please!

And yes there is a transportation cost issue here. Note that even though we are told the MVHS site is less expensive, there were always the hidden costs - like the $6.4 million already spent on land and not recovered at Brach-Brodie, the risks associated with the MVHS site (will not go into details, but a friend told me it involves pipelines, train, automobiles, and dare I say a softer word "polution" -- all still playing out), and finally, the costs of busing kids farther distances for longer bus route times.

Inefficient scheduling, multiple trips by buses to pick up students, etc. costs time, fuel, and patience. There are risks here as well regarding safety - the longer time on buses, the higher probability of a safety problem. Of course D204 minimized this risk by not picking up many students in the first place. You can laugh now.

Of course, I am told the bus transport concerns were clearly presented numerous times to the administration, the school board, and Kathy Birkett (the new superintendent, who was responsible for the bus transport analysis behind the new high school justification).

My guess, is that D204 is trying to stay within a budget that was impossible to stay within. The poorly thought out solution was to use the same number of buses to do a much larger job. This requires lower bus route times. That requires less stops and larger loads of students. Remember too, that the district took over all logistics from First Student - a busing comapny that has professionals just for that purpose. Hey, but we saved money right? Voila - our bus plan!

The results were expected and reflect the total incompetence of Kathy Birkett's analysis as assistant superintendent in charge of transportation operations, and her poor decision-making as superintendent on this one issue. She had numerous chances to get it right, and failed three times. I hope this is the only failure, and that she apologizes to the worried parents and frustrated students.

She should not use the D204 playbook and act like nothing happened, all is well, and we should all be thankful we live in D204. That would be the reaction of an entrenched life long D204 administrator, who has no superintendent experience.

Let's hope D204 bites the bullet, admits they need more buses, must blow the transport budget, are taking more safety risks than they should, and then fixes the problems -- problems caused by burning over $140 million on bricks and mortar, built where the majority of students don't live.

It would have been smarter to spend that money on top educators, excellent planning and individual student development in the new paradigm of global economic realities just now setting into the USA. We build nice new buildings, with fancy athletic fields while our competitor nations build intelligent brains, and technologically superior students.

I continue to be concerned about the government and among other things, the take over of health care and the end of my personal choice and liberty in that regard. Over the past week I noticed the dog is favoring one rear leg. On Saturday I decide to call the vet to make an appointment. They want to x-ray him. She said bring him in on Monday. I made the appointment, hung up the phone and realized MY DOG gets to see the doctor faster in this country than humans seeking medical attention in the UK or Canada can according to what I read. So I conclude three things: 1) If our idiot president is successful, animals will get faster (and probably superior) medical care then humans in the U.S. and 2) if I am in need of certian medical care, I should see if I can work out some arrangement with my vet. 3) At the rate this government is spending money that it does not have, I will be eating pet food anyway because no one will have money. I might as well see a vet when I am sick. Now that is What the ?.

Yes, what is on my mind, is Naperville school district 204 and those running it(into the ground). Not only has the school district totally messed up the bus routes and stops for our children, to save the precious dollar(for self gain IMO), they have totally compromised their safety!
My child came home to say she and several of her friends( 12 year olds) had to STAND on the bus to come home because of over crowding. WHAT? Is this not one of the richest school districts in the country? Other stops on the route include 5-9 year olds having to walk several blocks with no side walks and busy traffic.
I don't understand what these people are thinking. I have spoken with several other parents, and we don't understand either? If they want to trim the fat why don't they start with their salaries! Now this latest blunder will cost the tax payer even more because, now they have to pay overtime to fix it! .
I feel we pay our taxes, we should get what we pay for. Instead we get a half assed system trying to take more money! Where is it going? I didn't ask for another High School, and I do not think I need to buy required supplies that in the past the school provided,but had to anyway when my child came home and said" her teacher said the school didn't have enough money to buy them for us this year". WHAT? Please if anyone can explain this I am listening=|

For al the millions they spent (140 million? 150 million?) they BETTER be open on time!!!

Why isn't the Sun reporting on Mike Madigan courting Dawn DeSart to run against Darlene Senger?

With the first few days of classes having been completed, something should be said about IPSD 204 and Metea Valley HS. You can say what you will about the need for the school, or the school boundaries, or the method by which the site was selected. However, the Administration, Board, and Staff [and construction crews] should be complimented for getting the school opened on time.

By Jack "I see nothing funny about foreclosures here or anywhere else"

Actually, it is humorous to see all those who were trying to live a champagne lifestyle on a Boone's Farm budget with egg on their face. You know the type, everything they possessed or in this case, repossessed, was mortgaged to the hilt.

JQP...

Yep some do it for that or just do the staggering. LTHS is doing the staggering but some just do it year round not due to money issues but value of education.

Dear "By Glad I left"

I see nothing funny about foreclosures here or anywhere else. Take a look at corrupt big city mayors like Daley, who are making residents pay through the nose for street parking with his sweetheart deals.

By Anonymous on August 21, 2009 5:38 AM
By Citizen Investigative Journalist on August 21, 2009 1:34 AM

A long time ago I lowered it to 1.5 million as more facts were revealed and some information was released by City Hall.

***************************

Baloney. Where? When?

========================================================================================================================================

I lowered my estimate from 2 million to 1.5 million a while back and repeated it several times on this blog site. Maybe since the Moderator reads every post he can back me up.

I have no time to be going backwards but I have a very good memory.

I am busy trying to tell the story of Mr. Huber right now so I have very limited time to research old posts I wrote.

The baloney is on you, my friend. Let us keep it civil as the Moderator stated/suggested and not throw baloney at each other. If you have to throw anything throw salami. I love hard salami...lol...!

Glad I left on August 21, 2009 9:09 AM
----
Is that you Scott Huber? If not, when do you get out, and will you be coming back when you do?

Good God, I am SO glad I left the little burg of Naperhick in 1997. After 10 years of watching the small-town farmers trying to run a "big" city I couldn't wait to escape. Here's a little history for all you newbies: Mayor Pradel was previously known as "Officer Friendly" when a cop, kind of an inside joke as most who knew him didn't think all the lights were on in the house, if you know what I mean. He was put on the ballot by the insiders, as a means of maintaining the good old boy network, as his puppeteers were too abrasive to win an election. Or, how about the Russian guy who was in charge of the Building Department, got divorced, he and the ex started sharing some City Hall secrets in public, he was paid off and just disappeared. Strange. Or maybe the contamination leaching into the river from the old electrical generating station just off of Main and Jackson, that the City ignored and just covered with a parking lot, but continued to spew how "family friendly" Naperhick is. Oh, and I do laugh at all the foreclosures in-town.

By Citizen Investigative Journalist on August 21, 2009 1:34 AM

A long time ago I lowered it to 1.5 million as more facts were revealed and some information was released by City Hall.

***************************

Baloney. Where? When?

By Anonymous on August 20, 2009 5:05 PM
By Citizen Investigative Journalist on August 20, 2009 2:49 PM

Anyway, I feel my estimate of $1.5 million was in the ball park when you factor the amount of time City Attorneys worked on the case. Keep in mind outside attorneys have to consult with inside attorneys every step of the way.

***************************************

Wow, talk about revisionist history. You said over and over after the settlement was announced that the fees would be over $2 million. Now suddenly it’s $1.5 million. Get off it.

========================================================================================================================================

I made my estimate based on having no information available to me. It was a guess on an estimate.

A long time ago I lowered it to 1.5 million as more facts were revealed and some information was released by City Hall.

I now believe my lowered estimate made a few months ago was right on the money.

CM Bob told us today we spent roughly 1.1 million on out-of-house attorneys. I think a 400k estimate on in-house attorneys is also reasonable since they communicate every step of the way with each other.

If you want to "dig" at a response from the City you can not guess or estimate too low. Or else they are not coming out. If I said I believe they spent 500k do you think they would ever admit they spent $1.5 million? They would let me try to persuade the public the city only spent 500k as that would be good public relations for them by an uninformed Citizen Investigative Journalist.

I have been estimating the City of Naperville spent $10 million in legal fees on the Napergate Trials that lasted for 10 years. For nearly 3.5 years on this blog site, I have made this rough estimate based on no facts but my knowledge of comparable cases. No one from the City has ever disputed my estimate. That should tell you something.

Maybe they spent 11 or 12 million on the Napergate Trials and are happy with my low estimate of $10,000,000. The bottom line is they shredded, lost, buried, misplaced, or did not keep records. I really don't know. Maybe you know what happened? Maybe you work for the city and know something Opinion Editor Tim West and I don't know and could never figure out. Please inform if you know anything about the missing records.

As you can see we only obtained answers on the Furstenau Costs because we asked. Otherwise, I doubt the City was going to call the Sun and state we wasted 1.5 million dollars on Fustenau and now we can move forward. Cities only issue press releases if there is good news. We know they don't issue press releases every time we have bad news such as a heroin death in town which I feel is important to know and can be done without compromising the name of the victim due to HIPAA or whatever is being alleged on this blog site.

One thing I know for sure is that Naperville Residents should be outraged when a city engages an individual in legal battles for a decade in many many courtrooms and can not reveal what it spent. If it smells like a skunk, and walks like a duck something just does not add up.( I just made that saying up...it sounds better than the duck, duck, duck phrase to me...lol..and it rhymes)

I think due to this blog site we are making some progress in holding our City of Naperville Officials accountable. One day this blog site will be read by tens of thousands of residents and will make a real difference in how the City deals with residents. It will make a difference in who is elected and who is not elected in city council elections.

Change is happening. Change is coming. Patience is needed!

I actually consider your post a compliment. If I made an early estimate of 2 million and it came in at 1.5 million, I think that is a darn good estimate. And keep in mind all this money was spent for one lousy dismissal....the case never even made it to 1st base.

Imagine if the Furstenau Case went before a Judge after jury selection. Imagine if it was appealed to higher courts as in the Napergate Cases. It could have easily been a 5 million dollar case to us taxpayers.

The Napergate Case went through an 11 day Kangaroo Court established special in City Hall to prosecute the Napergate Man. After that it took several directions which included the Illinois Liquor Control Commission, DuPage County Court and Federal District Court. There was more than one case in Dupage County...maybe 3 regarding 3 different angles of the case. Everything was appealled. Two out-of-house legal firms assisted the 9 member in-house legal department in fighting the Napergate Man.

My estimate remains $10,000,000?

What is your estimate? Can you even arrive at an estimate?

Why do you think we don't have records regarding the Napergate Stipulations, Trials and Appeals?

Does it bother you as it bothers me?

I am satisfied with CM Bob's response and I consider the Fustenau Case closed. I wish we could one day close the Napergate Cases.

And of course I am hopeful we don't start the Huber v. Naperville case any time soon. I can not afford to pay any higher real estate taxes than I am already paying. And I feel most Naperville residents feel the same way and want to hold the line on higher real estate taxes.

Thank you!

By Citizen Investigative Journalist on August 20, 2009 2:49 PM

Anyway, I feel my estimate of $1.5 million was in the ball park when you factor the amount of time City Attorneys worked on the case. Keep in mind outside attorneys have to consult with inside attorneys every step of the way.

***************************************

Wow, talk about revisionist history. You said over and over after the settlement was announced that the fees would be over $2 million. Now suddenly it’s $1.5 million. Get off it.

Example of posts from Furstenau mental exam thread wherein you said over $2 million even after the settlement was announced.

By Legal Fees will be over 2 million. on March 25, 2009 12:39 PM

By Legal Fees will be over 2 million. on March 25, 2009 7:30 PM

By Legal Fees will be over 2 million. on March 25, 2009 7:59 PM

By Anonymous on March 26, 2009 8:38 PM

By Legal Fees will be over 2 million. on March 27, 2009 10:10 PM

By Legal Fees will be over 2 million. on March 28, 2009 6:04 PM

OWVY,

There are school districts that have adopted a year-round schedule, but I think this is usually done as a money-saving measure in that that the district can maximize the use of its facilities. Kids get periodic two-week breaks, as you suggested, rather than one long vacation. They organize the kids into different tracks, and stagger the schedules of the tracks so that there is always a group that is on break.

-JQP

Shine on You Crazy Diamond - Pink Floyd
Babylon - David Gray
Feel Good, Inc. - Gorillaz
Never Met a Girl Like You Before - Edwyn Collins
Speed of Sound - Coldplay

Why does the Naperville Sun feel it necessary to post mug shots of individuals arrested in Naperville? What has the paper turned into? Don't you have anything better to write about? If not, perhaps you shouldn't be a daily paper.

Well I believe initially summers were off to let kids go home & work the farms they lived on. Not a big need for that anymore.

Many teachers would rather have school year round as kids forget so much over the summer. This does help parents as they do not have to get child care while they work but then of course summers are nice off for the kids as well as the teachers to have a break. :-)

Perhaps a compromise of year round but then 2 week breaks every so often. This could allow for some vacations but yes still may be an issue for child care. Then again you have some schools without any air conditioning and different problems. There is no perfect solution really.

Times are different though so we should consider some changes. It is not like when I was a kid where 15 or so kids in our backyard swimming, laying on the grass watching the clouds go by, drinking Kool Aid and running after the ice cream truck when you heard it. If I had my choice between school & kids who sit at the computer or tv all day playing games or getting into trouble I'd say get them back in school. This certainly is not all the kids but maybe even morning school over the summer? Heck you can have it be all the Phys Ed, Art & Music programs they seem to be taking out of the schools. Someone find some grants!

Why does school start so early? I am a former East Coaster and school does not start until after Labor Day. I keep hearing it is because of the High School students and that there was a vote a few years ago. Apparently the majority of parents/teachers voted to keep school starting so early. I would love to find some of these people because I have not met them yet. Can't the H.S. students take midterms 2 weeks after winter break? It is too cold to get out of school in May and too hot to start in middle of August.

While I have a Zune and not an IPOD, the next five songs that come up are:
1. Beautiful Day - U2
2. Love Shack - B 52s
3. Let's Get It Started - Black Eyed Peas
4. Psycho Killer - Talking Heads
5. Let's Get Loud - Betty Wright

Five songs on my Ipod

While my Guitar Gently Weeps - The Beatles
9th Symphony - Beethoven
Angelina/Zooma Zooma - Louie Prima
Eye In The Sky - Alan Parsons Project
Locomotive Breath - Jethro Tull

and one bonus track:
Minnie the Moocher - Big Bad Voodoo Daddy

What a great question!

Five songs on my iPod:

Best Days of Our Lives - Weekend Players
Why Georgia - John Mayer
Tiny Dancer - Elton John
Rock n Roll - Led Zeppelin
Take Five - Dave Brubeck Quartet

What's on your Ipod?

List 5 songs on your Ipod

Green Day; Holiday ( Live, Bullet in a Bible)

Alan Jackson; It's 5 o'clock somewhere

2Pac; Dear Mama

Metallica; Nothing else Matters ( Live, S&M)

Toby Kieth; As Good as I Once Was

Hopefully Sybil won't hijack this thread.

To: By Anonymous on August 16, 2009 8:19 AM

It is a mystery as to WHY the SUN prints Letters that are grossly incorrect in data content (such as the one you referred to).

I know for fact that during the school district elections and referendums, the SUN often demanded source materials for data sent to the SUN in the form of Letters to the Editor that did NOT support either the referendum or the endorsed Board candidates.

Seems a bit like an agenda, doesn't it?

To: By Anonymous on August 14, 2009 3:08 PM

If 204 is like the other districts, salaries & related (pension, etc) make up approx. 75-80% of the total costs in the school district.

As a caveat, it may be a wee bit lower in 204 because of your huge building costs (depreciation & funding related interest) for all of your "growth".

You ask a great question about how to balance the deficit ---- I would highly recommend you send an email to the new Super and ask her directly.

The answer may be very, very enlightening for the taxpayers in 204!!!

I'm feeling a bit old...my oldest niece is leaving for college next week!

I also want to start a petition for longer summers! I can't believe school is starting up. Where did the summer go? The trees are already starting to turn colors.

Ken...

What happened to the Vanilla ice cream on top? ;-) Good God it is going to my hips just from thinking about it! Maybe that was the apple & peanut butter I just had though. HA!

Now Cracker Barrel has Christmas starting! UGH!!!

RE: The comments from several about putting up a fence on Ogden to stop NNHS students from playing in traffic.....

I say....Thin the herd! Survival of the fittest! Darwin in action!

Even when there was a fence across Ogden Avenue, that did not stop NNHS students from darting across the road. It is frightening. Please note that there is no school speed zone on Aurora Ave. in front of NCHS either. Luckily, "most" of those students cross with the light.

Perhaps the school district, City and State of IL (Ogden) believe that HS students should know better. I prefer to remove the risk.

Is there a chance that Mill Street to the East of Naperville North is considered the main entranceway as far as traffic, and should be at 20 mph? Even with a right in / right out on Ogden it would make Ogden a secondary road and possibly not subject to the same school zone requirements? I wonder if a "school zone" includes every road directly around a school (360 degrees). I personally think Ogden should be at 20 mph during school hours - The city could probably write tickets all day long (If in fact they have jurisdiction - state road?)

Anonymous at 12:26 is right on about Mill Street school. Not only are there flashing lights, it is regularly monitored by the police who tend to sit in St. Timothy Lutheran's parking lot on a motorcycle.

Anonymous on August 17, 2009 12:26 PM

Did I miss it? I didn't see a citation to an Illinois law that requires the city to create a proper school zone speed limit around every school. You kinda of gave a reference to a law that states what happens when you violate an established school zone. But, I didn't see one that required the city to create one around every school.

Thanks again.

"Can you please give us a citation to the state law that requires the city to create a proper school zone speed limit around every school?
Thank you!"
**************************************************

Illinois law also states that a driver arrested for speeding in a school zone must appear in court and face a minimum fine of $150. The fine for a second or subsequent violation of the law is $300. The speed limit in school zones when students are present is 20 mph. Everyone who drives Ogden Avenue knows the prevailing speed is well over the limit provided motorists are not stuck at lights. The problem at NNHS as well as many other local schools is that who ever is responsible is not putting up the signs designating the street as a school zone. The Illinois Motor Vehicle Code contains the language as to what constitutes a school zone. Maybe Ogden Avenue is the states's responsibility since it is a state route as well? Even if that is the case there are no signs on Mill Street or 5th Avenue either. Compare that with Mill Street school just a couple of blocks north and not only are school zone signs present... they even have flashing yellow lights to warn motorists when the speed limit is in effect before and after school.

Drive down Roosevelt Road in Wheaton, which is very similar to Ogden Avenue in Naperville, and a school zone is clearly posted in front of St. Francis HS. Is it possible that Wheaton cares more about its high school children than supposedly child-friendly Naperville does?

By Anonymous on August 16, 2009 11:09 AM

Maybe the Naperville Sun can shame the school into divulging the plans for a fence AND find out why the City of Naperville has not created a school zone along with proper school zone speed limits around every school in this city as required by state law.
**************

Can you please give us a citation to the state law that requires the city to create a proper school zone speed limit around every school?

Thank you!

Anonymous wrote:

He noted a congressional estimate that legislation being considered in the Senate could cost $800 billion to $900 billion over 10 years.

If that's true, that's not too bad. That works out to $80-90 billion per year which, while a huge number, is a small percentage of total federal spending every year. Obviously we can't fund the cost of insuring several tens of millions of people every year without it costing a bundle---at least not without major changes to the entire health care system. And those changes are where the real land mines are in the national health care debate.

I don't think anyone should have to be a clearinghouse for comments. I just think the name calling has gotten a bit out of hand, really with just a very tiny number of people. But unfortunately that tiny number are eroding the concept of intelligent discussion on here. I think everyone here should be personally accountable for their own behavior. If we all just followed a few basic rules of etiquette, and held ourselves to the high standard of debate and discussion without personal attacks, this could be a great forum. (Unfortunately the big offenders may not see themselves as being ones who violate any of those "rules.")

Honestly Glock, so far on here I haven't seen you say anything that is anything other than your research or opinions on issues. Nothing wrong with that. Granted I don't read every single blog topic. But so far what I have read from you I may not always agree with (sometimes I do sometimes I don't), but you don't seem to resort to name calling or demeaning others from what I have seen, just disagreeing with their opinions or stance. Perfectly acceptable.

Has anyone noticed the construction work at NNHS removed the fence along Ogden Avenue??

So far there is no indication that a new fence is going to replace the old one. Does anyone know if the fence was supposed to even be removed or if a new fence is included as part of the current work??

With school starting in just a few short days there is now a huge potential for a child to get hit by a car cutting across Ogden Avenue. Kids cutting across Odgen mostly come from the housing to the north of the school and it has been getting worse and worse for the last couple of years. Someone either wasn't securing the fence in a few places or the kids kept breaking the locks.

This is a recipe for an accident like we have seen in the past on 75th street. Maybe the Naperville Sun can shame the school into divulging the plans for a fence AND find out why the City of Naperville has not created a school zone along with proper school zone speed limits around every school in this city as required by state law. The traffic department has sacrificed the safety of children walking to school over moving traffic for too long and this practice has got to stop before one more child gets injured or worse.

I hereby appoint ANON 12:16am to be my official blog comment clearinghouse. Please provide me with your email address. I will submit my comments to you first. You correct them and forward them to Potluck. Genious. (Sorry, I just called you a name)

OWVY, I like apple pie. Hopefully they will sell that at the Apple store, along with a good apple crisp.

Anon,

If I heard correctly, it is four Democrat plans in the Senate all with cryptic legalistic puzzle wording designed to hide true intent; in addition, the Democrat Controlled Senate is taking days to publish the revisions in a determined effort to deny citizens and lawmakers an opportunity to review the various cryptic documents.

This is exactly like running a shell game on the American people and is part of the Rahm Emanuel (NYT article yesterday) directed effort to overwhelm the legislative process and get sweeping legislation passed without review or debate. "Remake America"

Given Mr. Obama's National Socialist agenda, it should come as little surprise that he wants to muzzle dissent and control a rubber-stamp-legislature which the Democrats are more than willing to give him. Un-American.

Heil Obama?

******************************

"By Anonymous on August 14, 2009 10:36 PM
I don't like a plan that is rolled out while it is still being revised and just what is the big rush to get it signed, bi-partisan support or not?"

***********************
New York Times
Emanuel Wields Power Freely, and Faces the Risks

By PETER BAKER and JEFF ZELENY
Published: August 16, 2009

Free view of article pulled off internet today, just pay version.

Bruce Dixon, in a letter to the editor in today's Naperville Sun, states that President Obama "is not going to cover illegal aliens in the nationalized Medical System" Obama envisions; and that people should get their facts from sources besides cable TV (aka FOX News).

Today, on the Internet, Mr. Obama is quoted as saying that he is going to cover the "46 million not currently insured". This often quoted number includes 10-12 million illegal aliens. IMHO the 12 million is a low ball number that hasn't changed in a decade as the flood continues.

AUG 14, MONTANA TOWN HALL MEETING:

"You can't tell us how you're going to pay for this," Rathie said of Obama's health care overhaul. "The only way you're going to get that money is raise our taxes."

"You are absolutely right," Obama said. "I can't cover another 46 million people for free. I can't do that. We're going to have to find money from somewhere."

He noted a congressional estimate that legislation being considered in the Senate could cost $800 billion to $900 billion over 10 years.

http://www.newsmax.com//newsfront/obama_healthcare_montana/2009/08/14/248078.html

Assuming that Mr. Obama, like all politicians, wants to get re-elected and is apparently trolling for votes all the time; it is safe to assume that Mr. Obama will be pushing for amnesty and citizenship for the 10-12MM+ illegal aliens.

When Naturalized the new citizens will be allowed to bring in their families and extend families swelling the number of new insured potential voters (who contributed zero to the system) up to something on the order of 50MM+ new citizens dependent on government income redistribution programs with Mr. Obama, like Hugo Chavez, as their champion for the freebies.

Change, or just another big spending ego maniac hack with socialist tendencies?

What happened to my message...it is missing a part? Ugh...

I said after "Christmas in July" but this is crazy! Then I said..."but I did buy some ornaments a Hobby Lobby! Help!"

Ok, the Bears really were a disappointment tonight! I swear no one has been able to run the ball since Payton & Suhey! And how many times did they throw the ball to the Bills? Geez!

Christmas Trees are out in the stores already!!!!! I LOVE CHRISTMAS...it is my favorite time of the year but this is crazy! I know we are suppose to keep the Christmas Spirit all year round and there is Christmas in July at Hobby Lobby...HELP!

The problem is Govt is not good & Big Business is not good. That is why we will be probably screwed no matter what!

Comment etiquette for blogs. There are some on here who could use some etiquette.

This has some good ideas.
http://dariablack.wordpress.com/2007/02/13/the-bloggers-guide-to-comment-etiquette/

Key points in the article:

Take the time to read the blog entry and put some effort into writing a response that adds to the conversation and/or helps the blog writer.

Stay on topic.

Respect the rules.

Speak from your point of view and don’t treat others as though they are idiots because they don’t agree with you.

Most blog topics don’t require more than a one or two paragraph response. Avoid writing a novel especially if it is your first visit to a blog. It also helps to read the other comments to make sure you are not adding to the broken record effect.

When citing material to make your case, provide a link so that the participants can read it at their leisure.

Other good articles:
http://www.lostartofblogging.com/the-comment-etiquette-the-guide-to-proper-blog-commenting
http://www.lostartofblogging.com/comment-policy
http://walmartwatch.com/blog/archives/miss_manners_guide_to_comment_etiquette/

Critique Principles not People.
Be Discriminating, but don't Nitpick.
Be Academic not Acerbic.
Be Principled but not Polemical.

What is not acceptable then:
Rants
Personal Attacks
Name-calling
Finger-pointing

What is acceptable:
Constructive critique
Charitable debate
Challenging, but in a friendly way, and with good reasons.

Diana...

I posted on this in the other Open Topic. I don't know the specifics on this case but again the cyclists & pedestrians have to be proceeding correctly also. It is not always the drivers fault when they dart out between bushes etc. We'll have to see what the deal is with this one.

I was driving home after getting of the train from Chicago the other day & I was in the left lane of a 4 lane road. The Truck in the right lane just a bit behind me saw the cyclists and slowed & moved over to mine lane but this cyclist was 1/2 way in the road & the other car behind the truck I was watching in my rear view mirror because there was no way he/she could have seen him in front of the truck. Luckily no one else was oncoming in the left lane & they were able to quickly get over but that had tragedy written all over it. I was hoping to see an officer up ahead to stop & say something but no luck. BTW...this was 55 mph!

Ken! How could you not want Apple Pie?! How UnAmerican! ;-)

I'll take some Braeburn Apples...sweet & crunchy...with some peanut butter!

TO ANON @ !0:36PM. Sorry, it is not anti health care reform protestors. The term now is health care INSURANCE reform. The word of course in the line that does not belong is: REFORM. There is no reform in the bill. And they were anti government, pro personal choice protestors. Kind of like the pro abortion crowd. No one tells them what to do with their bodies and no one tells us we do not have health care choice. My choice is my employee/employer paid health care program with Blue Cross Blue Shield. Obama can GTH! I love ignorant democrats. They were up in arms with the Bush patriot act (also voted yea by large numbers of democrats). Anyway, they have a problem with the government investigating a money gram you send to East Pakistan under the Patriot Act but no problem with the government having wire access to your checking account as provided for in HB 3200 to TAKE medical treatment fees and expenses directly from you at time of service. Or the fact that the single payer health care bill provides for the IRS to control the finances of the program. Amazing. Obama simply wants to have the government assume all control of health care and we as taxpayers pay the costs. Given the current state of financial affairs with Medicare and the Social Security Administration, the Post Office, Amtrack and so on, you can only be an idiot if you think the government can be successful with IT as the only healthcare option.

"practically a mosh pit regardless of what time of day you're there."

Excellent description! I always tend to get a little claustrophobic in there. And I am not normally claustrophobic. And I definitely avoid it at the holidays.

The new Apple Store is pretty awesome, as expected. If it's anything like the Oakbrook Store, that store is going to generate a ton of money. If you're unfamiliar with the Oakbrook Apple Store, you can sit outside eating a pretzel from Autie Em's across from them and watch a steady stream of people walking out of the store with computers and iPods all day long.

It's actually kind of fun to just keep a running tally in your head of how much money they're taking in while you sit there for ten minutes. I almost wonder if the increased parking requirements of this new store combined with the proximity to the library is going to spur the construction of the new parking deck?

It wouldn't surprise me, since there's no reason to think it won't be as packed as the Oakbrook Store, which is practically a mosh pit regardless of what time of day you're there.

Bicycling safety is on my mind. I read about the two 12 yo girls that were hit while riding their bikes. The young man that hit them was only 16. Seems to me like there's not enough instruction in driver's ed about how to drive with cyclists nearby and pedestrians. Drivers, please SEE cyclists and pedestrians.

Ken - (Laughing) If didn't know better, Id guess you had been enjoying some applejack when you wrote that.

I don't know how a store that just sells apples is going to make it, unless they sell other apple related products like applesauce or apple fritters...

Apple store....Awwww snap!

I was a little surprised to see a couple of anti-health care reform protesters, complete with signs, standing on Ogden Av. across from the post office today at 2PM. I'm not sure how they selected that location. Maybe it is being discussed to death elsewhere, but that is the first local display I have witnessed.

Personally, I don't like a plan with no defined method of finance.
I don't like a plan that is rolled out while it is still being revised and just what is the big rush to get it signed, bi-partisan support or not? If it is O's plan to strike while the iron is hot, it appears to be too late and the wrong tactic. Slow down and finance this behemoth thoughtfully. I realize that there are many without this basic necessity. I am just tired of the hits on my frayed wallet.

This is a test of the comments system

Today's Sun has an article on the projected deficit in District 204 in the proposed budget of $8.35 million. Realizing that although salaries are one of the biggest (if not the biggest) expenditures but that contracts are already set for the current year and little can be done about them, where else can the District cut back and make up the over $8 million deficit? Or, in the alternative, where can the District find additional revenue.

Here's the budget: http://ipsdweb.ipsd.org/Documents/0910/TentativeBudget0910.pdf

There are going to be hearings on the budget. What are we as residents going to suggest to the Board.

Apple Store Woot!!!!

The Apple Store in downtown Naperville is opening tomorrow, I never have to go to the Oakbrook Mall ever again!

Chris Magee wrote:

...but please discuss something different than what's on the last open topic.

Party pooper!