CIJ –

This will be civil and not insulting in any way. I hope you see it as such.

“I stand by my opinion that Mr. West read and continues to read the Naperville Sun Blog Site.”

Great. That’s your opinion. I just happen to think you’re wrong and that’s my opinion. Quite simply, I think Chris is correct and that Tim West doesn’t read these blogs. Why? Because Chris has an informed opinion and not one based on your mere speculation. Chris knows Tim West while you do not. Chris has no vested interest in this issue while you do--backing down on this small and insignificant issue would make your prior statements about influencing Tim West’s articles incorrect.

But this issue is a perfect example of your M.O. I have a differing opinion and you’re response is that I’m delusional and lacking in common sense, logic, reason and comprehension. Currently on another thread, you’re accusing anyone who disagrees with you of being firefighters or their family or their supporters. Your conduct is childish yet you’re the one who accuses others of acting like kindergarteners.

CIJ, I’ve never tried to distract anyone from your message. In fact, I think you may do this yourself. Whenever anyone starts poking holes in your facts, all of a sudden the conversation gets personal (and nasty) and then you accuse everyone of making the topic about you and not the issue at hand. By making the issue personal, you deflect attention away from the flaws in your theories.

As for your past, once again I’ll tell you that until you confront your past conduct honestly it will continue to tarnish your credibility. Even Chris has told you as much.

You’re welcome to your own opinion but, frankly, I don’t see widespread support for you or your positions. What I see are more and more people confronting your “facts” and your tactics. What I see are people asking you to start your own blog and take your “supporters” with you. Why don’t you respond to those requests? It’s unlike you to remain silent on anything for so long. Do you have some support? It’s possible but given your past of creating alter-egos to prop yourself up, how can we really be sure (see above)?

As for the plagiarism accusation, I think you need to re-read the definition of the word. I did not claim the comments as my own--that would’ve been plagiarism. I attributed the comment to another person without specifying who that person was and I’ve already told you why I did so.

What’s funny is that I happened to agree with what you wrote. You just have your panties in a bunch because your own statement was used against you.

T.B.

By T.B. on November 2, 2009 8:23 AM
CIJ –

Just because Tim West tried his hand at starting a blog site, that doesn’t necessarily mean he reads other blogs. It’s just as likely that after he threw in the towel on his site he found that he had no further use for blog sites or the internet in general as a media outlet. Also, Tim West’s latest column was about how little use he had for the internet in general.

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I stand by my opinion that Mr. West read and continues to read the Naperville Sun Blog Site.

I stand by my opinion he got the idea of his blog site from the Naperville Blog Site or some other blog site.

His blog site was tied to the Sun-Times web of Blog Sites.

If he did not read other blogs, than in essence to open a blog site, he was the second independent founder of BLOGS. I do not believe he was the founding father of Blog Sites. He most certainly copied and implemented others in opening his blog site. Most likely the Sun-Times opened it for him upon his request after reviewing other blog sites.

If he does not understand the importance of the internet in media, he will himself one day go the way of the dinosour just like the print newspaper business is right in front of our eyes.

It is you who is DELUSIONAL if you truly believe the Man who reviews the Letters to the Editors of the Naperville Sun and publishes them to get a pulse of the Naperville Community does not care to hear what hundreds of bloggers are saying on his newspaper's Blog Site.

I am really sorry T.B. But you have the least of common sense and logic. You have absolutely no reason or comprehension.

I will go one step furhter and say there is a 100% chance that Editor Tim West has read or reads the Naperville Sun Blog Site.
I will bet anyone any amount of money that if Tim West took a polygraph test, it would show he has read or reads this Naperville Sun Blog Site.

Thank you,

CIJ

PS.All you silly comments TB, along with JQP, are attempting to distract bloggers from the real issue of government waste and high taxation. It is really very sad that you folks continue to make the debate about ME instead of Big Fat Pensions and Big Fat Benefits. More and more folks are seeing through you, T.B. Just read what all the new bloggers are saying.

Bloggers are coming on and saying we support you 100% CIJ. We give you a STANDING OVATIION, CIJ. Yes, CIJ, my 401 that was reduced to a 201k, has now been reduced to a 101k by the improprieties of City Hall.

The truth is coming out. Keep doing what you have to do, to make it obvious that you are for Big Fat Pensions. And I won't go into the reasons since they have been gone over many many times. Get a hold of yourself, T.B. Admit you are for Big Fat Pensions, because you are most probably in line to receive one, if not by Naperville by a surrounding suburb. I can smell how bad you stink from right here. Stop your deception on this Blog Site.

You want a truce and you begin attacks because I point out to you that you use a quote of mine without giving me credit which is a form of PLAGIARISM. You guys are really something else.

CIJ –

“Moderator Magee simply expressed an opinion on this blog site that he does not believe Editor Tim West reads this blog site. He does not spy on Tim West. He is not in his home. He is not in his bedroom. He does not have his phones or computer tapped.”

You’re not in Tim West’s bedroom, are you? You don’t have Tim West’s phones tapped, do you? Are you spying on Tim West? Do you work with Tim West as Chris does?

Unlike you, Chris has an informed opinion on this topic. Your opinion is simply based on your desire that Tim West reads your BS and his columns are affected by it because you’ve stated this in the past so now you’re stuck with this untenable position.

Just because Tim West tried his hand at starting a blog site, that doesn’t necessarily mean he reads other blogs. It’s just as likely that after he threw in the towel on his site he found that he had no further use for blog sites or the internet in general as a media outlet. Also, Tim West’s latest column was about how little use he had for the internet in general.

Get a hold of yourself, CIJ. Hopes, dreams, and delusions are no basis for opinions.

T.B.

By T.B. on October 31, 2009 11:17 PM
CIJ –
Hmmm…more on Tim West reading this blog even though Chris, a respected source, has already told you he does not? You may believe that Tim West has ample time to read the blog, that doesn’t equate to him actually doing it. Chris has told you Tim West does not read these blogs…are you calling Chris a liar?

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Of course I am not calling Chris a liar and would never call anyone a liar as that is LIBEL. Speaking of young and immature kids on this blog site.

Moderator Magee simply expressed an opinion on this blog site that he does not believe Editor Tim West reads this blog site. He does not spy on Tim West. He is not in his home. He is not in his bedroom. He does not have his phones or computer tapped.

My opinion is that he is wrong and Editor Tim West reads this blog site. I am 99.99% sure of that.

If Editor Tim West attempted to open a blog site similar to the Sun Blog Site in the same family and he did not review or study this blog site, I feel confident he was negligent in his due diligence.

Despite failing, I don't think he could have possibly been this negligent.

I can not imagine an Editor of the Sun who fields the Letters to the Editor would not be interested in what Bloggers have to say since this is also a mild form of Letters to the Edtitor.

Just because Moderator Magee has an opinion, that does not mean he is right. He is human and can be wrong.

In this case I believe he was WRONG!

Again, neither he or I are in Mr. West's bedroom checking what blog sites or web sites he visits.

Thank you!

CIJ

PS. Please don't try to stir trouble T.B. by implying that I called the Moderator a liar. That is an uncalled for comment considering we have a TRUCE which I would like to continue. Don't look for minor excuses to discontinue it and begin your personal attacks all over again....get a hold of yourself. Speaking of young immature bloggers on this site....lol....

T.B. wrote:

You know, I would have pegged you for being older but you seem to employ the mentality of the younger generation—nothing is ever your fault.

While this does seem mainly to be an affliction of the young, some people never grow out of it, unfortunately.

CIJ –

You responded to me so here you go …

You object to my use of the quote even though I made no mention of you? Tell me, CIJ, did I quote you accurately or not? Yes or no? I believe I quoted you accurately and you don’t like it because it works against your agenda. Please tell me if I’m wrong.

Hmmm…more on Tim West reading this blog even though Chris, a respected source, has already told you he does not? You may believe that Tim West has ample time to read the blog, that doesn’t equate to him actually doing it. Chris has told you Tim West does not read these blogs…are you calling Chris a liar?

Lastly, I think I have done a pretty good job outlining what I think your actual wrongs were from the past (no perception needed). You can choose to believe this is some sort of “gang mentality”, or you can look at this as several people who have independently recognized that what you did was wrong. At least if you continue to believe this was “gang mentality” you can rest assured that the “gang” is an independent group of strangers, unlike the multiple aliases you employed to gang up on people.

You know, I would have pegged you for being older but you seem to employ the mentality of the younger generation—nothing is ever your fault. This is just another example of you trying to minimize what you did instead of honestly confronting and taking responsibility for it.

T.B.

P.S. See why we had a truce…one comment leads to more. If you want to maintain the truce you have to STOP referring to me and STOP commenting on me. Period.

Here's another historical rewrite:

from today's post---
City Hall wants to throw bodies on the street. I would like to see a 10% cut in all departments without any bodies in the street. I think it could be done.

Other not so distant posts---

By Citizen Investigative Journalist on September 29, 2009 1:53 PM
Lay off all employees who constitute excess fat. Lay off the building inspectors as Blogger Enough suggested since the town is 98% built up.
No need to play the fear game on us anymore, my dear Firefighters. We only need 100 fire fighters in this town. Lay off 100 and that will save us a little under 10,000,000 including benefits plus probably another 10,000,000 in pension benefits for the future.
And shut down the legal department and save 1.4 million dollars as they farm out so much of their work to outside legal firms who milk us as if we are cows.

CIJ- You absolutely have called for layoffs and continually insinuate that city employees have too little to do and constitute nothing more than excess fat.

The city eliminated positions and laid off employees, reducing the workforce by just under 5% last year. There are plenty of city employees who got no raise this year, some due to pay structure and longevity actually lost income last year and of course there were those unfortunate employees who lost their jobs completely. This, however does not include the unions with existing contracts. Just the poor suckers not in unions. But what the heck do you care CIJ? A custodian here, a secretary there, everyone can do more with less. Just keep trading, making your six figures and rest assured that those who used to get all of $30,000 to $40,000 in annual salary won't be taxing your pocketbook any longer. You really do not have all the facts and spew conjecture. The sad fact is some folks here believe your wild theories and solutions.

Don't even begin to pretend that you are a champion for city employees or a friend to the little guy. There still trying to suck out your venom.

By T.B. on October 30, 2009 8:29 AM
CIJ –

I didn’t write about you and didn’t mention you.

I actually thought one thing you wrote was a fine example and used it without attributing it to you due to the truce.

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Not attributing something to its proper author is a mild form of plagriarism especially when you specifically know who the author is.

I think the truce should allow us to say nice things about each other if we so choose.

I think if we have bad things to say about each other we should restrain ourselves as it is counter productive especially in our particular cases.

I will continue to restrain myself and look for all the postive in people.

OJ and I once were engaged in heated and hated battles.

I now have a lot of respect for him and commend him whenever I can.

He no longer cuts me down which I appreciate and think is a step in the right direction.

He chooses not to complement me as most people don't because of the gang mentality that exists on this blog site against me because of "perceived wrongs" I am alleged to have done in the past.

And yes, thank you, what I wrote was a fine example of those who have attacked this Blog Site as a worthless blog site that no one reads.

Believe it or not, I am extremely offended when someone attacks this blog site. I think it is a great Blog Site. I think the current Moderator and previous Moderator and Host have treated all of us fairly and done an overall spectacular job running this blog site. And I say that even though I have taken most of their wrath in the last 3.5 years.

Maybe I appreciate this Blog Site because it allows me to freely express myself and honors my First Amendment Right of Free Speech.

Keep in mind I tried to post on Mr. West's All Points West thread and he refused to post any of my posts no matter what I discussed. He knew my IP number.

Either he got it from this BLOG SITE because he has access to it or Jim or Ted gave it to him. If I talked about anything it was not posted....even my Grandma and her heart surgery...lol...

And then comments are made here that Tim West does not read this blog site. Yeah, sure! What does he do after he writes his 3 columns that I can write in less than ONE HOUR. He reviews a few letters to the editor that come in and I am sure they are less than in the past as residents seem to prefer blogging over writing Letters to the Editor.

Tim West does not strike me as an INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST pounding the pavement. He strikes me as a columnist/editor who comes to the office and stays in the office 40 hours a week except to go out to lunch. Maybe not anymore as Sun Headquarters are not downtown where restaurants surrounded the old Sun Site.

This to me is a strong indication that he has the TIME to read this blog site if he wants. I am sure Sun Officials will not mind if he read a Sun Blog Site to get a feel for the community. I am sure they would object if he went to a gambling, porn, or CNBC unless he was covering those issues which he does not cover.

Now I can see in his columns many of my thoughts and ideas. I have been peeking at his columns for 36 years. I can tell you he never wrote 3 columns in a few weeks about government waste and high taxation throughout his career. I never recall him even brushing the topic in the last few years.

His last questioning of government was about 10-12 years ago when he wanted to know why the City of Naperville did not keep track of the Napergate Cost records. He was boiling and outraged.

When I return to the library, I will try to dig up that article again and provide the date and page number since so many people doubt what I say. I believe I have already provided them but somehow I am not able to search the archives of this blog site as easily as I am able to navigate the library. I guess we have no librarians here to help.

If someone knows how to search the archives of the massive data base of this Sun Site, I would appreciate some tips.

Anyway, have a nice day TB. I am really not here to attack bloggers.

I am really after City Hall and unfortunately some people take this as a personal attack.

City Hall wants to throw bodies on the street. I would like to see a 10% cut in all departments without any bodies in the street. I think it could be done.

I think we can reduce our excess fat through normal retirment without replacement. We can decrease 34 positions a year using this method.

The Building Dept seems to be the dept. most loaded with excess fat due to an almost complete halt in contruction and loan activity.

Even with that department, I have not asked for bodies to be thrown in the streets. I have recommended contacting Plainfield the next boom town to see if they will take some of our employees. I have suggested others be retrained in other departments where the most attrition occurs.

Former Police Captain Robert Marshall was a decorated police officer in town for 30 years. He was either retrained to be a City Manager or possibly just handed the job due to CRONYISM. I really don't know the answer.

But I do know since he has been in a Management Role in City Hall, our city perfomance has been less than par. Our tax increases have exceeded state statutory rates based on posts by others on other threads. So I am not sure he was the best man for a very serious job.

I would think a City with nearly 145,000, wealthiest in the nation with over 100,000 residents, and rated in the top 3 by CNN/MONY magazine would have searched the nation for someone with proven experience and success in a similar or smaller town. Naperville was a CROWN JEWEL before our City Officials became FISCALLY IRRESPONSIBLE. Naperville was once the ENVY of the COUNTRY...the NATION...the WORLD!!!

========================================================================================================================================

Look at Naperville today:

1. A 14.1 million operating deficit despite loading up with McMansion after McMansion in the final few years of the real estate boom. Thousands of them everywhere and anywhere that we can see with our own 2 eyes.

2. A loss of $20.5 million in one year in the P @ F Pension Funds due to risky investments. I am a non-professional and I am in the positive this year even though I lost -$20,761.05 today. I did predict that we are going to see a blood bath before October 31 and I believe we are seeing the beginnings of one. The Dow was down 249.85 today. Thankfully I sold off 2/3rds of my stock portfolio or I would have seen a 60k loss today. I am not perfect but I did try to minimize unlike our gamblers that ran our pension funds that knew the responsibility of their humongous losses will fall on the heads of the taxpayers and not their shoulders. No one is perfect in this stock market but our professionals should have done a little better. I bet they would agree with me. They just did not see the Tsunami coming and they should have as FULL TIME PROFESSIONALS. They should have unloaded into cash as I did and I am doing now. If they don't know we have had IRRATIONAL EXUBERANCE the last 8 months that is most probably not sustainable, they need to be replaced.

3. Our $126.2 million Accrued Actuarial Pension Liability Deficit in all our city pension funds is INEXCUSABLE. It is not a result of this latest bubble imploding or a market crash. It existed in boom years and the deficit was increasing in boom years. When towns in the NW went to abolish the broken Pension System, Naperville chose not to support them. How FISCALLY DESPICABLE! CRONYISM! And why would they support them since folks like Robert Marshall and even Mayor George "Arthur" Pradel are DOUBLE DIPPING. For the newcomers who don't know our Mayor was also a former police officer. So is the head of the Park District who may one day receive a DOUBLE PENSION while he may be DOUBLE DIPPNG right now. Wake up folks! This is insanity. I suspect CRONYISM but I can not prove it. YET!!!

If you promised a pilot he has enough gas to go to China and you later find out he does not have enough gas do you tell him to proceed to China and crash or to land at the nearest airport. We don't have enough gas for our Pension Obligations that were made by PIN HEADS. So do we let this system continue until it implodes like the Napergate Man forecasted 15 years ago or do we reform it into another system where those who invest are responsible for their investments. I am willing to match the P and F dollar for dollar up to 10%. But I am not willing to match them $3 for $1 as we are not approaching this level with a near 25% matching contribution to their 9.45% contribution.

4. Besides all this we have a serious drug problem in our town amongst our youth, that is really being minimized or covered up. I know of heroin deaths in this town that are not being reported. Check through grapevine circles and they will give you names, dates and cemetry sites to visit. I visited one a few days and gave my prayers.

========================================================================================================================================

I can go on forever as most of you know.

We need a PLAN for CHANGE in this community.

I hope it is coming soon.

Thank you!

CIJ

CIJ –

I didn’t write about you and didn’t mention you.

I actually thought one thing you wrote was a fine example and used it without attributing it to you due to the truce.

Go figure.

T.B.

By -1 on October 29, 2009 9:39 PM
Moderator Magee:
Is there a way to get a "next" and "previous" button for the posts, so that when we run across a post by a blogger who does not interest us, we could click the next button to get to the next post on the list?

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Did you ever hear of scrolling up or down if you don't like a post you see? They make geniouses everyday on this blog site.

What is the big deal here?

Moderator Magee set up a second OPEN TOPIC in which I have not made a single submission and will not. Anyone could go there and OPEN a new topic as I did here.

Demand has been so great on the SECOND OPEN TOPIC opened for people like you who don't like CIJ and yet ironically no one blogged on it for 9 consecutive days. Is this funny or crazy!!! ...lol...

So while you guys complain about me you always come on the thread I am on to read what I have to say. No one is skipping over my blogs. Talk is cheap. People enjoy or hate reading them, but they READ THEM. That is very obvious!

If you guys really did not care about what I am saying you would all move to OPEN TOPIC PART II that was really opened for the people who were not interested in the topics I raised here such as HOME RULE, TAXES, GOVERMENT WASTE and Big Fat Pensions.

Anyone can "hijack that blog" and make it happen just like "I hijack blogs in your minds" and make them happen. Why is no one making an effort? Are there no leaders on this blog site who can lead a debate except for me?

All those who complain about me really sound like cry baby whiners looking for attention since they can not compose a paragrah. There are followers and there are leaders. Some wish to be leaders but have no ability to lead so they bash the leader after their failures.

Grow up folks!

Go to SECOND OPEN TOPIC and you won't even have to scroll over my posts. I PROMISE YOU I WILL NOT GO THERE.

Thank you,
CIJ

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PS. And you won't find me on 8 of 10 threads on the Main Page. I usually focus on one thread or two and suddenly it is talked about as if it is the whole BLOG SITE...lol...

If I am dominating, it is only because you allow me to dominate. I am not here to dominate. I am here to hold the FISCALLY IRRESPONSIBLE rascals in City Hall responsible for the waste of my money and your money. That is the only reason I am blogging. Everyone should know that by now.

I believe that Chris "flushed" CIJ out with some prompting from other bloggers that were becoming more aware and disgusted with CIJs behavior...about the time Barack Obama showed up and things got very insane. I could be remembering wrong, but I also think Chris needed help with obtaining the IPs from the Sun's IT dept. or guy, I could also be remembering this incorrectly. Ted and Jim simply didn't get this far and simply didn't have other bloggers getting more and more outraged by the duplicity. Ted and Jim may also have needed IT help to flush out the IPs, if they had gotten to that point.

I apologize if I am wrong, but thinking that Jim and Ted would be cooperating with CIJ is as outlandish as thinking that Chris also cooperates with CIJ's antics. Chris is busy, he reviews posts and approves them, he does not instigate as far as I can see.

Ted? Jim? Any thoughts?

Bueller?

Moderator Magee:

Is there a way to get a "next" and "previous" button for the posts, so that when we run across a post by a blogger who does not interest us, we could click the next button to get to the next post on the list?

We can do a makeshift function like that by doing ctrl-F and typing in By (and a space), but is someone uses these letters we must click through their post.

thanks,

-1

If Jim Lynch had known about CIJ shenanigans, I doubt that story on the Napergate Man's July, 2006 arrest would ever have made it into print.

CIJ,

If you think about it, I really don't owe anyone an apology. I commtted no crimes.

LOL! Really? Is this what you think? You only need to apologize when you've committed a crime????? Is this what you tell your wife and kids whenever you do something that upsets them? LOL!

Your story is complete B.S., and your attempts to "reinterpret" the past are just pathetic....as usual.

-JQP

By T.B. on October 29, 2009 1:09 PM
Anon ONE –
Sort of like someone else once stated that the Sun’s circulation can’t be judged by the small number of people who write letters to the editor.

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If you want a TRUCE, please don't speak about ME. Those are my comments.

Thank you!

CIJ

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JQP,

If you think about it, I really don't owe anyone an apology. I commtted no crimes.

It is not illegal to use multiple handles so what do you want me to apologize for....for making their blog site a success.

If TED and JIM did not notice what I was doing which was BLATANTLY OBVIOUS, maybe they are not the smartest 2 cookies on the face of this earth.

NOTICE HOW QUICKLY and DECISEVELY MODEATOR MAGEE FLUSHED ME OUT!

Is he that much more brilliant than TED and JIM?

He was the EMPLOYEE and they were the BIG KAHUNA BOSSES.

They knew what was going on. They were both brilliant. They let it happen and it has led to the massive success of this blog site. They did nothing wrong but watch out for the best interest of the Naperville Sun.

If you think planting people or bloggers is a crime, why don't you call the NPD on BlackFinn American Saloon. The police will laugh at you.

Move on JQP!

I told you the truth.

Let us have closure.

I did not ever want to reveal any of this but I WAS CAUGHT by MAGEE RED HANDED and was forced to. What don't you understand? Stop being in denial as long as the Nile is long....please!

Now please again, this should be enough.

Thank you,

CIJ

CIJ,

I apologize for the use of the word "collusion". It apparently can imply the intent to commit an illegal act, and that was not what I meant to say.

Regardless, you are making some serious allegations against Ted and Jim. If what you say were true---and I don't believe for one second that it is---it wouldn't in any way, shape, or form validate or dignify your actions. It wouldn't raise you up to Ted and Jim's level; it would lower them to yours.

Ted can still confirm your story if it's true, that I'm not going to sit around waiting for that to happend. Failing that, all we have is more biased supposition and speculation from you as to what Jim and Ted knew. Heck, you may even BELIEVE what you're saying is true (at least in part), but that doesn't prove that Ted and Jim really did have you figured out. Unless you can offer some hard evidence that proves your story, I think you owe both of those gentlemen an apology.

-JQP

Anonymous One and JQP,

First, you are both lying when you state I colluded with them. That is not only a lie but also libel. It is you who are libeling Ted and Jim and not me by using the word COLLUSION.

I know you stopped me from using the word LIE on another thread, Mr. Magee, even though later OJ provided the goods to show I was being truthful.

Since A ONE is saying I am lying, I should also be able to use the word. He is not a real person like Mr. Krause so we should have a little more latitude here when it comes to libel. Do you agree?

I never spoke or contacted TED. But I emailed Mr. Jim Lynch many times with e-mail handles that I created. He was very friendly and courteous to my fictional characters.

I have expressed what amounts here to a VERY STRONG OPINION....not COLLUSION.

I stated corretly and honestly that after Host Ted pointed out that 4 characters were using the same IP number, he let me continue using multiple IP numbers. OJ visited the Dunkin Donuts numerous times and found no groups blogging at any time and presented this information to TIM and JIM on this blog site which is EVIDENCE and FACTUAL and even TRUTHFUL. As I said they are not stupid and knew what is going on.

Host Ted knew the same IP number means the same person. When he looked at that thread with all my characters, how could he not notice it was not only 4 but literally 75% of the thread with the same IP number. At the time, I did not know how to change IP numbers. Moderator Magee provided damning evidence to implicate me and showed the world that I was using over 50-100 characters when blogging and in the same time period the Dunkin Donuts incident came up.

TED and JIM are honorable Sun Executives. Just like the BlackFinn Executives who own 11 locations are honorable Business Executives.

OJ was very intelligent. He was the first one to see similarity in writing. However, I convinced him he was wrong. He made a Big Issue of the Dunkin Donuts case. I believe Ted gave him a little straw and made it like the problem only involved 4 characters when I BELIEVE he knew it involved over 50. How could he not know when it was staring him in the face in black white right on his computer screen? This man was a numbers fanatic. He kept track of every hit. Evey post. Every statistic provided by the site. His ratings meant everything to him. Reaching that 100,000 number was a MILESTONE he looked forward to. As I said he was NO DUMMY! He even did great research on the Napergate Man and covered him as a young reporter. Ted knew what was going on and he had a knack for being in the right place at the right time. He had a great nose that could sniff anything. He should have been an INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST for the Naperville Sun. He only tried to help the Sun and the blog site which he loved and wanted to be successful. He was so proud of this Sun Blog Site which he FOUNDED with Mr. Lynch's backing and approval. He worked his butt off to make it successful. And he looked the OTHER WAY if something contributed to the success of the Sun Blog Site. And he made the right decision or his Blog Site would be buried along side ALL POINTS WEST in the Naperville Cemetry. He did nothing wrong! He was simply smart!

Notice how quickly, Moderator Magee produced the evidence in writing when I challenged him. Literally in less than half an hour. How could Ted not have observed as Chris observed? Of course he observed.

And you can be concerned about both the ratings and the truth at the same time as Ted and Jim were. Ted was obsessed with the ratings and wanted The Sun Blog Site to succeed. Just like the BlackFinn wants to succeed badly and used plants as I used plants.... Trust me they know what they are doing in BF Saloon and will do $5-8 million in sales this year. They have many locations nationwide that do well over $5 million.

TED and JIM did not do anything unethical or immoral. They simply allowed a blogger to use multiple handles which was not a VIOLATION of BLOG RULES. They were under no OBLIGATION to disclose this and only did, in my opinion, to get OJ off their backs a little. Between them and I, we got OJ off our backs. We gave him a bone and threw him another bone in the wrong direction. He went away second guessing himself even though he was RIGHT. We had poor OJ's head spinning. Sorry OJ! Nothing personal, I just wanted to make sure this blog site became the next Napergate Watchdog and hold our City Officials accountable as we are now doing with your great input. Thank you, OJ, for getting over it and moving forward. If only JQP and A1 could move forward and stop living in the past.

Moderator Magee to the best of my knowledge was not involved day to day with this blog site at the time in question. He really does not know what was going on then. He is not in the brain of JIM or TED. He is defending them against this false allegation of COLLUSION which I never made. So he is correct that there was no COLLUSION which was alleged wrongfully by others.

COLLUSION is a lie by JQP that is being repeated by Anonyous One. This would be libel in the real world. But since we are all fictional or anonymous characters, no one is being hurt. There are no financial damages to anyone. Thus there is NO LIBEL. Consider yourself lucky that I am Anonymous, or I would have dragged your rear end to court for libel and cleaned you out like my Dry Cleaners vacuums my suit pockets.

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If anyone owes JIM and TED an apology, it is JQP and A1 for suggesting they COLLUDED with ME! That is UNCONSIONABLE! That is INAPPROPRIATE!

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If you repeat a libelous lie, you are as guilty as the one that created the lie according to LIBEL LAW. So don't led JQP lead you to the cleaners in case my identity is ever discovered or revealed. COLLUSION is a very serious ALLEGATION. It implies that we are all CROOKS.

And finally if you guys did not think I was credible and just a loose cannon, you would not respond to anything I say. Obviously you guys know I am honest and credible and don't like it. Thus you are trying to destroy my pen which is like a sword in your brains.

Yesterday, we proved that Doug Krause was a phony. I made the allegation based on what he told me verbally to my face many times. Some bloggers doubted me and said this is libel. OJ provided evidence on the KRAUSE IN THE HOUSE web site that states what I said and proved that I was honest. I consider Doug a friend and voted for him 5 times but he finally let me down big time. I still consider him a friend but I will never vote for him again as he does not watch out for my tax dollars....and he knows it. He does not belong on the City Council....but I will continue to work with him in real estate as many others in this town do. He has gotten me quite a few apartment dwellers the last 30 years and only charges one or two months rent for his commission depending on the length of the lease. You can not beat his price! He does it for several landlords in town. He has lots of connections in town and knows lots of people. He is very good at one he does. I trust him in that field but not as a City Council Member. He let me down there big time after I went out and voted and campaigned for him 5 times! I even made contributions to his campaign fund. Next time I see him I will tell him I want all my money back since he was disingenuous with me. If he does not give me all my campaign contributions back, I will never do any real estate business with him....ever again. Or I will take my campaign contributions out of his next commission check and if he does not like it he can SUE ME. I hate being taken advantage of by anyone let alone a Council Member you should be able to trust, respect and count on. Why can't he be honest like Mayor Pradel? There is nothing wrong with being principled. As we all know the Mayor and the Napergate Man have mutual admiration and respect for each other even though they agree on NOTHING! They are both MEN. I wish we had more MEN and WOMEN in this town instead of so many boys and girls especially on this Sun Blog Site.(Sorry Mr. Magee, I will never call it Magee's Blog Site again. Unlike other bloggers, you only have to tell me ONCE and I LISTEN.)

People need to understand that TRUTHFULLNESS always DEFEATS LIBEL in a court of law. If you are truthful, there is NO LIBEL.

You can not call someone a CROOK unless he is a CROOK convicted in a Court of Law. Otherwise you are libeling him or her or it.

Host Ted still reads this blog site and has blogged. He can respond to my STRONG OPINION if he so chooses.

Why ask Chris to do all your work? Fire him an e-mail and ask him his opinion if you can not sleep at night. Why all this reved up emotion over NOTHING?

He may choose not to want to discuss this sensitive issue since you folks are making it a BIG DEAL and alleging COLLUSION. What nonsense?

As I said without what I did this BLOG SITE would have failed 100% just like ALL POINTS WEST failed 100%. It looked exactly like ALL POINTS WEST when I decided to grab the bull by the horn. Review the archives if you don't believe me. Judge for yourselves using COMMON SENSE!

You can attempt to dispute what I am saying. But if you know the history of this blog site as well as I do, you will know exactly what happened. I may not be a history major but it is undisputed when it comes to the history of this Blog Site or the histroy of the Napergate Man, I have more knowledge than even Moderator Magee. I think Magee may even agree with me.(sorry about the rhyme there)

Thanks!

CIJ

PS. I am not a day trader but I do trade stocks for only MYSELF between 830am to 3pm Monday thru Friday. Sorry about the delayed response to all your fabricated allegations but I do have a life, responsibilities and real estate businesses. Thank God I have the gift of writing quickly to respond to all your false allegations and nonsense which not only the Moderator is sick of but I am also sick of.

Wow, CIJ claims to literally be a murderer. Maybe the NPD should find out who he is and why a man who says he is honest about all his claims here has gotten away with murder.

Anon ONE –

As I recall during the heyday of the Napergate stuff, Ted was more concerned with the number of “screen views” of Potluck than the number of actual bloggers.

This makes sense because the number of people who read the site would be more important than the number of people who write on the site. Sort of like someone else once stated that the Sun’s circulation can’t be judged by the small number of people who write letters to the editor.

This would logically refute any notion that Ted wanted to build ratings by tacitly approving of one person posting many times. Also, if the number of bloggers was really so important to Ted or the Sun, I would think they could pay some intern peanuts to post things all day with less antagonism.

T.B.

CIJ –

The terms of the truce were you ignore me and I’ll ignore you. Don’t mention me and I won’t mention you. Yet in the same post where you said the “truce is on”, you included me in your misguided P.S. comments. Tisk. Tisk.

Let’s get back to ignoring each other – I like that much better.

**********

Regarding the libel issue, as I posted on 10/20/09 @ 9:12 AM there was a Trib story earlier this month regarding this very issue.

A woman who ran for office had someone anonymously disparaged her son in a blog during the campaign. The woman sued in Cook County and the court obtained the IP address where the post originated and the name associated with the IP address (it’s necessary to preserve this info early as its not kept for long by most ISPs).

Now the court case revolves around whether or not to turn the name over to the woman who sued. The ISP notified the person that his name was disclosed to the court and he obtained a lawyer to fight the release of his identity (his lawyer filed the motions under “John Doe”).

As the story related, it doesn’t appear likely the court will side with the woman seeking the name of the blogger, but you never know which way this will go. Personally, I would hope that everyone would be held responsible for their own words, even if posted anonymously or under a pseudonym.

T.B.

Chris Magee, moderator on October 29, 2009 12:16 PM
CIJ doesn't know them and doesn't know what he's talking about. (bold mine)

___________________

Thank You Chris, that's all I needed to hear - of course it's also what I thought about CIJ as well. It looks like JQP will be able to keep blogging!! Me too!

Citizen Investigative Journalist on October 29, 2009 1:52 AM
but I slipped up a few times and he caught me very quickly. I was kind of lax because I literally have gotten away with murder on this blog site as everyone now knows.
______________

I think you mean "figuratively" and not "literally"?

So please explain to us, CIJ, why a self professed "literal murderer" has changed their ways and are now to be accepted and believed?

Chris, the time has come to contact Ted and Jim for a reaction. Based on what CIJ just wrote, "In the end the ratings were more important to TED and JIM. In the end the momentum was more important to them than FULL DISCLOSURE to the bloggers."

I interprit this to mean that CIJ has stated that both Ted and Jim were more concerned with ratings than truth or journalistic integrity? This is something that as a journalist, or past journalist, would be important to admit or deny. And because they were employed by Sun Publications I wonder if your organization has any comment about this claim?

With all the talk of libel on this site I wonder if Ted or Jim feel they have been libeled, or at least disparaged by CIJ's claims of: "They looked the other way", and "we had invisible winks and nods going back and forth"? It seems that we now have CIJ making news, and some pretty damning claims, instead of just commenting?

I've been one of the most vocal critics of CIJ and their tactics on this blog, and I never comment on the past except to refute what CIJ writes. But for CIJ to now spin the story that their lying and fabrication of bloggers was some sort of noble effort to promote this site is laughable at best. CIJ made up the aliases to bolster the napergatians and try to prove strength in numbers and promote some misguided notion that every government official in Naperville is some type of "Establishment" bureaucrat.

CIJ gets upset when the past is brought up, yet uses the past when trying to make their case. CIJ still pats themselves on the back when claims are made that they have been "on record" and "calling for" reductions for the past 3.5 years.

When CIJ writes things like "I am honest when I blog. I am truthful when I blog" (Citizen Investigative Journalist on October 29, 2009 12:33 AM) People like me, and others, take offense to this because it was not true in the past, which for me, clouds the believability of the present.

CIJ spent a long time pretending to be "made up" characters all in an effort to promote an agenda (I call this lying). For this reason I will continue pointing out their past whenever they insist on conveniently forgetting it. And the reason so many people respond to you CIJ is because you insist on responding and commenting on anything and everything. You insert yourself into every discussion with an air of sophistication that just does not exist.

You fail to see that no one comments about your past until you make it an issue with your claim of virtuosity. No one commented on your family until you made it part of your "story".

No one, including Ted, would have ever guessed that you would stoop to using so many aliases to promote yourself - and voting for yourself as the most popular blogger really takes the cake. Perhaps this is a lesson you are learning too late in life, but your actions and words stay with you for ever, and not something that you can just dismiss.

I join JQP's proposal (John Q. Public on October 28, 2009 7:56 PM) that if Ted Slowik was in collusion with you I'll leave as well. The Naperville Sun blog is not a revenue producing venture and never will be. It takes time and resources to run and they get absolutely nothing from Sun Publications based on activity. If anything, CIJ's many postings took Ted away from his real responsibilities and perhaps contributed to the Sun being less profitable as it could or should have been?

CIJ,

I don't think Chris is going to call Ted Slowik, as he apparently has a "little doubt" as to the accuracy of your story. So the ball is in your court. Why don't you shoot Ted an email and ask him to get in touch with Chris to set him straight? The sooner this happens, the sooner I will be out of your hair.

Or, you could just admit that this is another instance of you not being truthful when you blog.

-JQP

Former Moderator Ted Slovick and Host Jim Lynch are not stupid. They are not ignorant. They are not naive. They knew what I was doing and they allowed me to do it. If it was obvious to you folks, it was much more obvious to them. They are professionals like Moderator Magee and can distinguish handwriting. They also knew how to read IP numbers. They understood IP numbers and proved it to me on more than one occasion. They were simply looking the other way because they knew what I was doing was bringing success to the blog site that is now sustainable without my help.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JQP,
These are my words verbatim. Your use of the word COLLUSION to describe the situation is INAPPROPRIATE.

I said they knew at some point and did not stop it.

When Ted stated 4 people had the same IP numbers, I told him publicly it was my friends and I at the Dunkin Donuts.

That is when he knew for certain. Do you think he just looked at these 4 IP numbers at the time. Why would curiosity not kill him and look at a few more IP numbers as Moderator Magee did?

Of course Ted did, and he certainly noticed over 50 were using the same IP number. At the time as Chris has documented, I was not changing my IP number. Under Chris I was changing my IP numbers, but I slipped up a few times and he caught me very quickly. I was kind of lax because I literally have gotten away with murder on this blog site as everyone now knows.

Ted and Jim both knew what was going after the Dunkin Donuts revelation. I continued blogging using more than 50 characters with the same IP numbers. As I said they were not stupid or dummies. They looked the other way as they wanted a busy blog with good ratings. Some days I blogged using over 30 handles. My record good be all 50 handles in one day....not sure!

They wanted high ratings. Host Ted was very proud of this Sun Blog Site that he founded. He would tell us about the number of hits it would get per week or month. One time he proudly mentioned we are approaching 100,000 hits either per month or week. I can not remember and I do not spend my time researching the past as you do.
I am trying to live in the present and plan for the future.

I suspect when Host Ted first discovered what I was doing he was not happy. He was not happy that "PLANTS" contributed to his very high ratings. That maybe one blogger was responsible for several thousands of those hits.

He could have stopped it as Chris did. He could have disclosed it as Chris did. He chose not to. Anyone who believes Ted as intelligent as he is did not know what was going on may be a little NAIVE.

He pretended it was a pimple and looked the other way and allowed it to continue full force. So did Jim who was on top of this blog site with Ted. Very involved. Left important meetings to check on heated discussions against City Hall that raised the temperature just a bit too much.

In the end the ratings were more important to TED and JIM. In the end the momentum was more important to them than FULL DISCLOSURE to the bloggers.

I think they made the right decision. They allowed this blog site to prosper and succeed. They nourished it just like you nourish a new planted tree with water since the roots are not fully developed and you want to make sure it grows into a big tree and does not die.

As I said the BlackFinn is a great example where you "plant seeds" to create false success that becomes "real success." I had once employed this strategy in a business I owned based on recommendation of professionals and it did work. I may have avoided failure and believe I did using this tactic.

Chiropractors when they first open up invite friends, neighbors, and relative to make it appear they are busy to their few legitimate customers. They are told to do so in Chiropractic School. I know that for a fact. I am actually seeing one that employed this strategy in Naperville and now he is very busy. It is not easy being in business or opening a blog site. People want to go to a busy successful doctor or a busy successful blog site.

If you don't believe me ask Editor Tim West who had to close his blog site after a few short months. I suspect he had one plant named Jesse from California constantly praising him and blogging but he needed 50-100 to really get it going. He had other problems such as a very poor choice of topics. He also had censorship problems. He only allowed you to blog if you were pro-Establishment. So he failed miserably. JFTR he censored all my blogs...every one of them. I don't know if he would admit to Moderator Magee that he blantantly practices CENSORSHIP but he does and I am sure very few people who know him know he is of one opinion and does not like opposing points of view.

The bottom line is this blog site is a SUCCESS and will even be more SUCCESSFUL one day. I am glad I was able to contribute to its success in one way.

No I was not colluding with Ted and Jim. But we had invisible winks and nods going back and forth. I did e-mail Jim using a specially created e-mail address I set up. Our correspondence indicated he knew what was going on without a doubt.

Do Ted and Jim wish this blog site could have taken off with 50-100 real bloggers instead of one blogger with 50 handles. I am sure they do. But they saw what it looked like the first few months before I got involved.

No one is going to look at a blog site that has 12 posts a month and updates once every few days.

Bloggers expect a blog to be in REAL TIME as much as possible.

Chris has stated that bloggers send him their posts 13 times if they don't see it posted immediately. How many times did he have to ask people to be patient?

A Blog Site is a different beast from a Letter to the Editor section. I had been on other blog sites before I came here full time. I knew what was wrong and I knew I could help this about to die BLOG SITE.

I wanted a blog site where Napervillians can discuss issues like taxation, politics, and government waste.

I think I got what I wanted. I worked 3.5 years to keep the momentum going and getting stronger.

Even if bloggers dislike me, they do come on here to read my posts. That should be obvious to anyone. Some are obsessed with me like JQP and TB.

And what is nice is I am finding more and more bloggers accepting of me and even liking me a bit after they understand where I am coming from.

And personally I don't think Moderator Magee thinks I am a terrible person who is trying to hijack this Sun Blog Site and destroy it.
I think he knows my intentions are good and that I want this Sun Blog Site to succeed as much as anyone else and maybe even more than him.

Keep in mind, Mr. Magee has the option to ban me from this blog site. I would not even be able to come on here and say Mr. Magee threw me off. He could make it look like CIJ must have retired and moved to Alaska. After all he is a little older and it may have been in the works....lol...

CIJ

By GJC on October 28, 2009 8:18 PM
That has exactly the opposite effect of what a rational blogger would want, it means that no one wants to listen to your ideas.

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If no one wanted to listen to my ideas, my posts would simply be skipped over especially since they are very long and detailed. Fortunately, I can write extremely fast so this is not consuming as much time as bloggers suspect. A little bit more time lately as I get the hang of bold, color, underlining and italics. But I will be up to speed and colorful in no time.

My ideas appear to be very threatening to the Establishment and it appears each and everyone of them is put under a microscope and dissected on this Blog Site.

At least we have now shattered the myth that no one reads my long posts.

Even when the Moderator asks you not to blog about me, you still can not control yourselves and then turn around and blame me for wanting to be the CENTER of ATTENTION.

Ludicrous and ridiculous.

I blogged on the last tax thread and did not mention any blogger. I told the Moderator watch and see. The next 3 blogs after I posted were about ME instead of my message and it has not stopped since despite the fact I made every effort to stay focused on the issue of taxation. Two bloggers were even laying in AMBUSH for me before I even posted...lol...how silly can it really get on a SERIOUS BLOG SITE.

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At this point, I have little doubt that Moderator Magee knows I am not the instigator.

At this point, I have little doubt that Moderator Magee knows I would like to move forward.

At this point, I have little doubt that Moderator Magee knows so many bloggers have their minds stuck in very old sands.....maybe even old concrete as appears to be the case of John Q. Public.

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I am honest when I blog. I am truthful when I blog. I support what I say and today OJ proved what I was saying about CM Krause was true beyond any reason of any doubt.

Again my MESSAGE is resoundingly strong and I am not surprised the attacks on the MESSENGER are vicious since the MESSAGE is ROCK SOLID.

Thank you!

CIJ

Does anyone even believe CIJ's current stories to be real or accurate? I certainly do not. He was retired, now he's not retired, he has a daughter, he was a day trader. The last I heard, CIJ is a guy that isn't married, unemployed and attends council meetings. People know who you are man, give it a rest.

Chris Magee wrote:

I'm sure Ted did not realize one person was posting under multiple names, certainly to the extent it was going on.

I figured as much, but CIJ has gone out on a limb, and I am calling him on it. Either he has reached a new height of blustering duplicity, or Ted was in on the game he says was afoot. If the latter, then it should be a simple matter for Ted to verify his claim. But it doesn't reflect well on CIJ either way.

And, no, my post of October 26, 2009 9:52 PM is not an example, as I am referring specifically to the period up to and before when Moderator Chris exposed you.

I think this sentence could use further clarification. My challenge to CIJ is to find a post that specifically referred to his behavior in the period up to and before when Moderator Chris exposed him. My 9:52 PM post of October 26, dealt only with a blog topic from a couple of months ago, which was well after the period in question.

The CIJ says, among many, many other things "My MESSAGES today have nothing to do with the ACTING JOB I did 2 years ago to tell the Napergate Story in an honest and honorable way. Look at it as writing a play....writing a novel. "

CIJ, do you truly not understand that many here will continue to see and believe exactly the opposite is true? That you continue to do an ACTING JOB on this site in precisely the same way you did all that time ago?
It is one of the primary reasons that your posts are regularly placed under the microscope, why long time bloggers and readers find it hard to attach any credibility to your ideas, writings and postings here. Do you truly not see that the beginnings of your writings here have completely colored the way your postings are viewed? Do you really not understand why that is?
Even if you limited your postings at this point to far fewer, and eliminated the phrases you repeat and repeat, it would take a long time for people to begin to trust your messages and postings BECAUSE of the past. That's the way this works. You must know this. What you do is exactly the opposite, filling page after page, filling forum after forum with the same ideas, phrases, invective.
That has exactly the opposite effect of what a rational blogger would want, it means that no one wants to listen to your ideas.
Do you truly not get that? Truly? Or are you just here to stir things up?

gjc

CIJ,

As John Q. Public, I am not fictional. The thoughts and opinions expressed in my posts under the pseudonym John Q. Public are very much my own, and I am very real. I am anonymous, though, since John Q. Public is not my real name, and no one here knows who I am. The distinction between anonymous and fictional is very clear, and has been pointed out to you numerous times, now. When are you going to learn the meaning of these words?

Anyway, I am offering you two deals:

First, if you can find a post of mine on this Open Topic blog that was made prior to your October 27, 2009 1:19 AM post in which I made reference to your multiple personality past, then I will post an unqualified apology. And, no, my post of October 26, 2009 9:52 PM is not an example, as I am referring specifically to the period up to and before when Moderator Chris exposed you. If you cannot find such a post, then honor dictates that you should sincerely apologize to me, but I won't make that part of the deal.

My second offer is this: If Ted Slowik will affirm your story about being in collusion with you by knowingly allowing you to post using many different identities in an effort to build up the participation on Potluck, then I will agree never to post on Potluck again (except, of course, to post my apology from the first deal, LOL). And when I say that, I mean I will never again post as John Q. Public, nor as Anonymous, nor under any other handle. My one condition here is that Moderator Chris has to verify with Ted, whether by phone or email or in person, that the confirmation does indeed come from him (I will take Chris' word for it). Hopefully, Chris is tired enough of this topic and of our near constant disputes that he will agree to perform this service for us just to put an end to it all. This will be a win-win-win situation, as you will have me off your back, Chris won't have to deal with our exchanges, and I...well, I won't say what I get out of the deal.

-JQP

P.s. If Chris already knows what you're saying is true, I will take his word for it even without consulting Ted.

By Chris Magee, moderator on October 27, 2009 10:09 PM
Why does the discussion always go back to what people did on this site months or years ago and arguing with each other. We all know what happened so do we need to keep rehashing it? I'm sick of it.

========================================================================================================================================

I am with the Moderator here. I am sick of discussing something we have discussed over and over again.

You guys don't listen to the Moderator and want to continually discuss CIJ instead of his/her/its MESSAGE.

Now what puzzles me is that you all say that I want this to be about CIJ when I am willing to listen to the Moderator and drop it.

Apparently, you folks don't want to listen.

I say DROP IT and the TRUCE is ON!

I let you have the last word.....what more do you folks want!

Move on!

Thank you.

CIJ

PS. And, TB, don't forget you were a productive researcher on the Napergate Man as well as former Host Ted Slowick and the Naperville Sun reporter who did a 2 page spread as well as many others. Of course I undisputably did the most research as I was willing to leave my computer and spend nights in the library.

Need I remind you TB that you were the first one to discover the verdict in his Federal Civil Rights Lawsuit which was never even discussed in his Napergate Ads. I was not even aware of this 2-1 Civil Rights verdict in his favor until you mentioned it and even kindly provided a link to it. Would it be right for me to say you shoved this down our throats? Speaking of deception.........????

****************************************************************************************************************************************

PS. JQP, I admitted I was the 50 or more bloggers more than once. Plus Moderator Magee proved I was them with IP numbers. So there is no dispute here. I admitted I was Ameena, the gal who went to the library to do all the research on the Napergate Man. I did not break any Federal or State laws by using multiple handles to tell a story I researched in the library. I did not break any blog rules. You guys asked me to stick to ONE HANDLE PER THREAD. You promised to leave me alone. I am sticking to ONLY ONE HANDLE on all THREADS and I am still being lambasted.

I understand why the Moderator is "sick of it." How come you folks don't understand why he is "sick of it?" It is like you are beating a DEAD HORSE and you can not stop, JQP. Maybe, you need to take some ANGER MANAGMENT CLASSES. Get over it!

I admitted I was these characters. And I gave the real reason in a post above. I don't regret anything I did except when I let one of my characters pat another on the back on more than one occasion. That was inappropriate but other than that my cause in doing what I did was NOBLE. It led to the success of this blog site and prevented it from dying like All POINTS WEST. When I came on this blog site, I recall a dozen blogs a month sometimes. I saw it dying. I did what I had to do to save this blog site from certain death because I was able to visualize a great future for it one day. No one else sees a great future for this blog site except for ME. But I truly do! Let us see what happens in 3-5 years. We already know 4 Council Members read it and I suspect all 9 of them read it. We know that one City Official reads it and I suspect many more read it but have no proof.

No one reads my lengthy blogs but every word I say is put under a microscope and dissected. No one reads my lenghty posts but almost everyone comments on them in the positive or negative. How could that be???? Can you explain this very unusal phenomenon, Moderator Magee? Do you believe that no one reads my posts?

I do believe deep down I was instrumental in the success of this blog site by creating more than 50 characters to portray an image that it was HAPPENING until it could really HAPPEN. BlackFinn American Saloon planted many paid employees from across the country the first 2 weeks as customers to make their place HAPPENING. Their strategy was also very successful and exciting and put them on the TRACK TO SUCCESS.

It should be clear to all of you by now I am not an ordinary person and do not want to be a run of the mill ordinary person. I take pride in being creative and thinking out of the box. If you don't like my style, ignore it. Why are you so obsessed with my posts, JQP? I think it borders on a sickness.....an illness....a disease Just do as the Moderator says and focus on the Subjects, try to ignore my writings if they bother you this much, and I believe you will begin to HEAL gradually.

I really don't know what else to say.

My MESSAGES today have nothing to do with the ACTING JOB I did 2 years ago to tell the Napergate Story in an honest and honorable way. Look at it as writing a play....writing a novel.

I did not attempt to deceive anyone with my MESSAGES by using fictional characters. Need I remind you that TB and JQP are also fictional characters. The Napergate Series of Ads can be found in Nichols Library and possibly the other 2 libraries. They also exist in the Naperville Sun as former Host Ted Slowich was able to pull a few. It was truly a great story that has inspired me to be persistent, determined and steadfast in trying to achieve my goals. Mr. Scott Huber, the HOMELESS STRIKER also inspires me with his UTTER DETERMINATION.

Since my agenda is government waste and high taxes I feel I selected the appropriate individual who had proven historical success in the field to idolize. Ted Slowich covered that Spring Green protest that attracted 400 demonstrators and Chicagoland TV stations organized by the Napergate Man and promoted through his Napergate ads and Special ads. TS wrote an article about it and provided the link for us. So please, TB, don't say all this information about the Napergate Man came from me. It was a major joint effort. I have just been repeating it when appropriate to explain a position or suggest a path of action.

Now really let us drop this old story. You guys allege I repeat myself. Yes, I do but you force me to repeat myself.

Thank you!

I feel CIJ should man up and go the route of Mr. Napergate. If he really wants to make changes, as Mr. Napergate did, he should publish his long statements in the weekly paper, take out full page ads as Mr. Napergate did to get his message out. The blog here is read by very few people.

Otherwise, CIJ--I feel you are nothing more than an illusion with way too much time on your hands and way too little real commitment to make your changes. Time to stop the insanity and take your cause to a better venue.

If Mr. Napergate had this blog back in his day, and used only this blog for his message, he would not have had the response that he did.

T.B.,

The reason I asked about your experience of the Napergate Man is that (Warning! I am about to bring up the past!) most (all?) of the many posts that attested to his selflessness, mildness of character and humility later turned out to have been made by a single blogger. And I think you and I will agree that this particular blogger's statements should be taken with a block of salt. So maybe our friend here really is faithfully implementing an NGM-style campaign.

-JQP

Chris Magee –

My apologies if the talk of the past bothers you. It bothers me, too, and evidently it also bothers CIJ. It’s tiresome and repetitive.

However, I think it’s appropriate to bring up these facts when CIJ tries to misrepresent his past in some altruistic way. It goes directly to his honesty and credibility.

If he were to honestly confront what he did in the past, not minimize what he did, and stop bringing it up then we wouldn’t be discussing it. But every time he brings it up with some new rationale, it begs for a response and correction.

**********

JQP –

No, I didn’t live here during the Napergate days and don’t know too much about it besides what our friend has shoved down our throats--just another reason why I don’t really care what the Napergate Man did.

**********

CIJ—

I’m sorry…do we have a truce or not? I don’t want to be accused of violating the truce if you’re going to state again that you don’t accept it.

If you want to stop discussing your daughter, then do so. I could easily respond to your last post on this but I’ll follow your lead. Which way are we going to go?

Let’s follow your logic about my Dad…I was vague about whether he was a current or former IRS employee and you assumed he was a current employee. This is deception? I deceived you because you made a bad assumption? Maybe you should just stop making assumptions about things you don’t know to be fact?

And let’s not forget the depths of your compassion. You were sorry to hear my Dad was dead, but not really too sorry because my Mom was probably still collecting his BIG FAT PENSION. Damn, such sympathy almost brought a tear to my eye.

Lastly, please stop with the kindergarten pleas to the moderator for some sort of validation. They’re childish and I doubt he really cares. You may also have forgotten that when I proposed the truce I went back to the topic of home rule in an attempt to redirect this discussion away from you and I. Get off your high horse.

T.B.

CIJ,

So Ted and Jim were in on the plot, but Chris wasn't (Or, was he?....hmmm)? Yeah, sure, right. Well Ted, at least, is still in the area. You can get his email address from the North Central College website. Why not shoot him an email and invite him to come here and write a post that backs up your story? The cat has been out of the bag for almost a year now, so he's got nothing to lose.

-JQP

P.s. His name is "Slowik", not "Slovick". I'm only correcting you because you won't find his name in the directory otherwise.

P.p.s. I'm sure the other bloggers your various handles ganged up on and attempted to bully will just get warm fuzzies when they hear that it was all only done in pursuit of a noble end.

Moderator Magee,
If you notice even when I try to respond to my haters in the same post I attempt to get back on subject.

Do you notice they never care to get back on subject?

They are much more thrilled to bash me.

One day or today I will give the real reason why I began using multiple handles on this thread.

And it was not a SELFISH REASON!

CIJ

========================================================================================================================================

Hint: If you had gone to the BlackFinn American Saloon and studied it thoroughly the first 2 weeks as I did, you would understand the reasoning for my use of multiple handles on this Blog Site.

And when I think back I know I did the right thing. If I had not done what I did this blog site would have seen the same fate of Tim West's Blog Site.....All POINTS WEST....the GRAVEYARD!

If bloggers have enough time they should review the first few months of this blog site. Up to 6-9 months. And after I began doing what I did, this blog site got some MOMENTUM that has continued to this day even though it is no longer attended full time. (I am shocked that no one in the Sun will volunteer to moderate when Mr. Magee takes well deserved weekends off....this really kills the momentum of this blog and keeps it from reaching its full potential.)

Former Moderator Ted Slovick and Host Jim Lynch are not stupid. They are not ignorant. They are not naive. They knew what I was doing and they allowed me to do it. If it was obvious to you folks, it was much more obvious to them. They are professionals like Moderator Magee and can distinguish handwriting. They also knew how to read IP numbers. They understood IP numbers and proved it to me on more than one occasion. They were simply looking the other way because they knew what I was doing was bringing success to the blog site that is now sustainable without my help.

The BlackFinn American Saloon shipped in employees from their other 10 locations to pack their place artifically the first few days to get it going. People beget people in a Saloon. Bloggers beget bloggers on a Blog Site. They had all their out of state employees pretending to be customers and being extremely friendly and even flirtatious. As an observer, I figured out their strategy very quickly. A manager admitted their strategy to me after I questioned him. I told him that I would do the same as he did if I were running a SALOON!

They will not need to fly any more employees in. They got the momentum going and put their place on to the track of success.A Mom and Pop would never have succeeded this quickly, if at all, in running this 10,000 sq. ft. 3 story establishment with a basement and Roof Top Patio, paying $18,000 per month in rent plus REAL ESTATE TAXES. The city handles most CAM for downtown retail and office space unlike non-downtown retail and office businesses.

I employed the same strategy as the BF and probably helped more than anyone else by placing this Blog Site on the tracks of success.

I will never forget when Ted Slovick was feeling so much heat from the "bloggers" he had to call Jim Lynch out of a meeting with Sun Officials to calm everyone down. That was when I knew this Blog Site was finally being taken seriously not only by Sun Officials but by City Officials as they are or at least have been in the past like a "hand and a glove." I see some separation developing and I hope I am the cause of it. I am sure Sun Employees are not happy that City Employees get Big Fat Salaries, Big Fat Benefits and Big Fat Pensions when they work much harder than City Employees and get almost NOTHING! I was trying to plant a seed in Sun Officials heads and I think I finally succeeded.

Say what you want but the Sun has done little to nothing in watching over City Officials the last 40 years. That is one of the reasons we are in this Financial Tsumani. The Napergate Ads did watch over City Officials, so some people may give credit to the Sun for what was said in them. But they were PAID ADS and the Napergate Man deserves the credit for being the WatchDog and not the Sun. He had to fight with them to get his ads in and 2 as we all know never made it to the presses and were delivered hand to hand by his Army of Supporters of which 20 appeared to distribute just at City Hall. Those were the days when residents were FULLY AWAKE. But trust me they are AGAIN AWAKENING right now and a new NAPERGATE will be starting soon.

****************************************************************************************************************************************

Read Tim West's Column today. He sounds like a parot reciting what I have been writing for months. However he obviously did not do his research if he thinks the City has 3600 employees. I will go on a limb and state that I recall reading we have about 1043 employees. Maybe I have Alzheimer's. We will soon find out from another blogger if Tim or I are right.

I have been peeking at Tim Wests' Columns for 36 years. He has never taken on City Hall like he is beginning to now. I feel like I am motivating him. I feel like he learned from his failed Blog Site that issues of taxation and government waste are more important to Naperville Residents than his cat and his constant doctor's visits. His visits to his personal doctor does not interest 145,000 residents who also have health issues and visit their doctors. I wrote him on his failed blog site telling him so many many times. He obviously read my posts before hitting the DELETE BUTTON....lol.... I got through to him finally and his columns are finally showing it. (To believe a man who tried to start his own Blog Site does not read this one is UNIMAGINABLE.)

****************************************************************************************************************************************

I was acting and TED and JIM were also acting. Together we got this blog site rolling. Trust me those guys were no dummies. They knew what was going on.

Anyone can second guess if the strategy was good or poor. If it was moral or immoral. If this was the best way or the worse way. But the bottom line is this Blog Site is the most successful of the Sun-Times Group and may be the most successful in Chicagoland while Editor Tim West's Blog Site is in the graveyard 6 feet under......SEALED TIGHT!

I tried to help Mr. West as I helped TED and JIM. He refused my help and censored everyone of my posts without EXCEPTION. I bet he regrets he did not play along. He had a much bigger name in this town than either Jim or Ted. One thing he finally realized was the name was not going to do it especailly since he has been way to passive during his 36 year long unstoried career. Packing the blog site with "bloggers" real or imagined, was going to get the job done! Just like you pack a new NIGHTCLUB with patrons when you first open up even if you have to use PLANTS.

OK, now you know!

Leave me alone, please!

CIJ

########################################################################################################################################

PS. I don't need 50 bloggers to present my MESSAGE. I can say it just as effectively with ONE HANDLE. People are even more annoyed with my MESSAGE now using ONE HANDLE INSTEAD of 50 HANDLES.

It about the MESSAGE people. It is not about the MESSENGER.

It is the MESSAGE that STINGS. The blogger only floats like a BUTTERFLY and is HARMLESS!

T.B.,

If memory serves, you once said you were living in Naperville during the Napergate Man's heyday. Did you read many of his newspaper and/or follow his story in the news to whatever extent it was covered in the news?

-JQP

You have yet to point out anything I wrote which was factually incorrect because all I did was repeat the info you previously posted. If you want to stop discussing your daughter then stop bringing it up…I already have.

T.B.

========================================================================================================================================

TB,
I did want you to stop discussing my daughter and you just did again. YOUR BROUGHT HER UP IN 11 SENTENCES. Actions speak louder than hollow words, TB! I thought you wanted a truce which I granted to you and look at what you write all over again. And then people say I want this to be about ME...lol...!!!

It is factually incorrect to say my daughter hung around thieves because she was a victim of crimes. Maybe everyone that goes to high school can be said to hang around theives. Maybe everyone that goes to church can be said to hang around theives. Maybe everyone that goes to a dance studio can said to hang around thieves. One of her cell phones was actually stolen at a church camp in Indiana by a Chicago 15 year old girl. Another was stolen by a long term friend of a dancer who came from a good family. That family knew the kids very well and retrieved the phone from the kid and severed all ties with him. I really can not see how you can characterize her as "hanging around theives." The more you say you did not distort the truth, the more you destroy your credibility. Apologizing while maintaining you told the truth is disingenuous to say the least. You should apologize and admit your distorted the facts to your liking in a cruel and unfair way against a child.

How would you like it if someone called you a CHILD MOLESTER for being insenstive to children. That would also be an uncalled for EXAGGERATION. That is what you are doing TB! Maybe it is just immaturity on your part. But you should certainly know better if you are truly an ADULT.

Thieves exist in all groups. I don't think you can find a group of 25 peope anywhere on this earth that are all honest.

I think your comment was a very sick comment. You distorted it to paint her in the worse way possible and you were less than truthful. You had an emotional moment in which you lost control of yourself. I certainly hope you are not a PO or FF.

And she did experiment with marijuana because she has a scoliosis problem and used it illegally in this state to alleviate the pain. JFYI, 13 states have legalized the use of Medical Marijuana(cannabis form) and every state legalized the the medical pill obtained through prescription. There are 14 additional states with pending legislation or ballot measures to legalize medical marijuana(cannabis).(please go to PROCON.org....I am not able to copy the link for some reason.) So to try to paint her as a DRUGGIE is a little ridiculous and overboard. It is insensitive to a child born with scoliosis. She now sees a chiroprator 3-4 times a week and we are no longer considering legal marijuana(pill form) which is prescribed by physicians. It has been so long that I discussed the issue I forgot the name of the pill....something like marisol???

Are 27 states now becoming DRUGGIE STATES because they are realizing that marijuana does in fact relieva pain and help in other ways. That is how ridiculous your logic is. Marijuana is not as harmful as alcohol, cigarettes, cocaine or heroin. It should not be considered in the same category of those drugs when speaking of harmful effects as opposed to legalities. I have mixed feelings about its legalization since it can be abused or apparently helpful.

She skipped college this morning because her back problem was severe. Her chiropractor takes Tuesdays off since he works Saturday. So she will have to endure the pain till tomorrow. Maybe medical marijuana would have relieved the pain just enough to allow her to go to school. Despite her medical condition, she will be graduating from college with a BS at age 21 as she remains on schedule. She only gets A's and B's so I would not call her a loser.

No matter what handle or thread I bought her up on, I bought her up to seek advice for. I recall bringing her up under Anonymous. If I had slipped up somewhere along the line and used a handle that can identify ME, why take advantage and smear a child's reputation. I was not trying to use her to strengthen my battle against City Hall by getting sympathy points. I was just trying to see if someone had some solutions for HER....feel the waters.

You got mad at me for mentioning your Dad may be getting a Big Fat Pension. I had no clue he was deceased. You wrote about him as if he was alive for months. I felt that he was either an active or recently retired IRS EXAMINER or AUDITOR. Therefore you misled people by being VAGUE. And then try to make people feel bad because he is deceased.

My Dad is also deceased. He died collecting a Social Security check of less that a $1,000 a month despite working all his life. He only finished 3rd grade. He was an immigrant like almost everyone else in this country.

========================================================================================================================================

These points are all irrelevant.

We have a fiscal crisis in City Hall.

No department wants to lose a single person. No department wants pay cuts. No department thinks it has excess fat. School teachers think they are much more important that fire fighters because they educate our kids and make them SOMEBODY. Fire fighters think they are better than school teachers because they may be called to save the life of a child every 100 years or so.

Who knows who is more important? I honestly think teachers are because if fire fighters did not exist we probably could ourselves save the life of the child due to smoke detectors, fire alarms and sprinkler systems. We have insurance to replace the structure. If we had 5 Fire Stations instead of 10, strategically located, they would get to the fire certainly before it spread to another home. We may lose the first home.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

And I still believe 5 Fire Stations should be closed each night. Alternate the 5 stations every other night so all residents would encounter the same level of minisucle risk. Chop off 14 hours from each FFs work week and reduce it from 54 to 40 hours and pay them proportioately less. This may be more than the 10% we need from them and they could sleep with their families at night and protect them from burglars, rapists and possible fires. If one spouse is a deep sleeper, having the FF home may save the life of his own child. We all know it is important to wake up when the smoke detector goes off and it has been proven that kids don't hear them. So the parents need to be home at night and both parents are better than one whenever possible for SAFETY REASONS. A parent can get to a child in no time. A FF may need 5-7 minutes which usually is way to late to save a child.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

If we ever have that once in a life time fire in a HIGH RISE, it is standard procedure that Warrenville, Wheaton, Lisle-Woodridge, Aurora, and Plainfied will help us with extra manpower. And these high rises all have sprinkler systems that would put out the fire in almost most cases.

If a commercial plane rams a high rise building on the TOLLWAY, there is no sense in risking fire fighters lives as we now know what will happen. I doubt if a Boeing 747 ever hit the old Sear Tower on the 90th floor any Chicago Fire Fighter would go in there unless he wanted to see certain death or commit suicide. The best solution is to let the people in the building extricate themselves and help others get out. I don't want to see 343 fire fighters die again needlessly in an impossible mission. We did not know THEN what would happen, but we now know what will happen. FF children need their Dads and Moms like the rest of the population.

Thus we have to adjust to the changing times and conditions. Most evidence I see today is that we don't need as many fire fighters as in the olden days. Either the fires are small and can be contained quickly(with sprinklers, etc.) and if they are of the MASS SCALE variety such as in 911 there is really little that any fire fighter can do but hope for the best.

CIJ

CIJ –

To add to what JQP just posted (@ 9:49 AM), I don’t think anyone would have a problem with the way you pushed your agenda if you were as honorable and decent about it as the Napergate Man evidently was.

The Napergate Man didn’t make things personal. He didn’t insult people. He just tried to open their eyes to what he saw as an injustice. And you know what? I bet he didn’t hold it against anyone if they didn’t see it his way or didn’t agree with him. I bet he didn’t try to marginalize, silence, bully, or ban anyone from the discussion. He didn’t exaggerate or “estimate” the facts of his case. He simply published another ad to try and sway public opinion to his cause.

There’s a big difference between you and the Man you so adore.

T.B.

CIJ,

You offer a truce, and then you accuse me of making this be about you? Wow! Here's news for you: this really isn't about you. It's also not so much about your agenda; it's about the less than honorable way you go about pushing your agenda.

How quickly you forget I chose to pick handles out of a rabbit's hat to prevent it from becoming about ME.

I forgot? Really? How quickly you forget that I've told you numerous times that I'm gonna call B.S. on you whenever you offer this lamebrain excuse for your duplicitous behavior. Did you really think I'd let you get away with it this time just because you were offering a truce?

No one really figured me out until the Moderator used IP numbers. There were some suspicians but no one knew for sure. Many times I successfully defeated the suspicians before the Moderator released IP numbers.

And you're proud of this, aren't you? Do you actually think that this somehow bolsters your "argument" that you were only trying to remain anonymous?

Finally, if you don't respond to any of my posts, I'm fine with that. I'm still going to point out where I think you're being less than forthright, though. You have a right to say whatever you want here within the Moderator's rules, but you don't have a right not to be held accountable for what you say by other bloggers. One thing the Napergate Man probably couldn't teach you because it wasn't within his realm of experience with his many ads is that the dynamic is different when you are operating in a forum where communication is two-way, and feed-back is immediate.

-JQP

CIJ –

The “truce” was just a tongue-in-cheek idea to stop the constant sniping back and forth and refocus the topic of conversation. I can see that you weren’t a big fan. Hey, at least I tried. (Chris, why criticize me for the attempt?)

CIJ, how could I have broken the truce “a few weeks ago” when I first proposed it on October 21st? Time, like your past, can’t be altered to your liking.

I could go point by point refuting basically everything you’ve written lately, CIJ, but I see that JQP did a pretty good job of it. However, let’s use your comments about firefighters as an example of your writings. As JQP pointed out, I’ve NEVER called for firefighters to get a raise. That is an outright lie. In fact, I haven’t even defended the status quo and have called for limited pension reforms. I just don’t support the draconian measures you’d like to see.

Your position and lies on the issue of pension reform reminds me of the old Napergatian threads when you blogged under several different names. You saw people who dared to think independently as being against you, even if they didn’t take a position opposite from your own. No middle ground was allowed, everyone was deemed to be “for you” or “against you”. Anyone who didn’t agree with you was labeled as an uneducated fool or an “establishment” person. Your “my way or the highway” point of view is excessively narrow and intolerant of dissent.

CIJ, we all know your use of many different handles had nothing to do with protecting your daughter because you used the different handles well before your daughter was ever discussed (see the Napergate issue above). In fact, you mainly used the handles to gang up on people, make it appear that there was wide consensus regarding your opinions, and to stoke your own ego (Remember nominating yourself for the year’s favorite/best blogger, Amena?). Your statement that you did it to protect your daughter is just an attempt to re-write your past, minimize your own actions, and deceive anyone who doesn’t know your true colors.

You know, JQP said that bringing your daughter wasn’t one of my “finer moments”. I agree. But what you fail to acknowledge is that I realized this last week and apologized for it (Oct 20th). Maybe you missed that. More likely you just ignored it.

You’re fair to say the topic of your daughter didn’t belong where I brought it up. For that I’m sorry (again). But to say I lied and distorted the truth is completely disingenuous on your part. You have yet to point out anything I wrote which was factually incorrect because all I did was repeat the info you previously posted. If you want to stop discussing your daughter then stop bringing it up…I already have.

T.B.

Evidently, the city council does not put much value on opinions from this blog site. LOL

JQP,

I am extending TB's TRUCE to you.

I have to agree with Kevin and the Anonymous Blogger who gave me a standing ovation that dickering with you guys is a waste of my time.

I am strictly going to blog about City Hall, high taxes and government waste. If you want to blog about ME, go ahead, but I am not responding anymore. I am not interested in ME and you guys made it about ME and now want to blame ME that it has become about ME. How ludicrous? How insane?

How quickly you forget I chose to pick handles out of a rabbit's hat to prevent it from becoming about ME. No one really figured me out until the Moderator used IP numbers. There were some suspicians but no one knew for sure. Many times I successfully defeated the suspicians before the Moderator released IP numbers.

I tried very hard to be very Anonymous as I did not want it to be about ME. I wanted my handle to be MEANINGLESS!

Ironically, I use one handle as you all requested and now you are cussing me out for using one handle and saying it is all about ME. There is no pleasing you folks so I am not even going to try anymore.

Cuss me out all you want. I don't care.

I am staying focused.

The City Council just voted 5-4 to increase our TAX RATE. For those who thought it would not happen, it happened.

I believe they want $200 more for each 100k in assessed valuation on our home real estate tax bill, if I understood it correctly.

I don't think the taxpayers are going to be happy.

I suspect a sales tax increase will be coming soon in addition to this real estate tax increase.

Just like I thought, they would take the easy way out instead of reduce expenses.

I told all those who thought taxes would come down because their home values came down a while back that they were dreaming since the city would increase the TAX RATE to make sure that does not happen.

The City in fact increased the TAX RATE.

CIJ

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PS. For the last time, I have no interest in any blogger. I am only after City Hall, City Officials and the City Council Members. That is who I am focused on. Try not to take the focus off these Folks, by focusing on ME, and then turning around and blaming me for the focus being on ME. You guys are clever but really not that clever...lol..!!!

PS II. CM Doug Krause held the swing vote and he sold out his constituents by voting for a tax increase. This guy speaks out of both sides of his month. The establishment controls him like a puppet on strings.

CIJ,

My comment about all of my employers offering dental care was in response to this remark by you:

I worked for 3 Fortune 1000 companies in the past and even in the good old days, I never got DENTAL CARE from my corps.

Many private employers DO offer dental care to their employers. I offered this information about my experience lest anyone reading your post come away thinking that employer-paid dental insurance is rare to non-existent in the private sector. You wouldn't want to leave people with a false impression, now, would you?

Tell us what percentage you contribute, 10% or less..

Not that it’s any of your business, but I pay significantly more than 10% of the costs for both my medical and dental plans. Moreover, I’m pretty sure this is the case at most private companies nowadays. I've never pretended otherwise. And, for the record, I believe city employees should bear more of the cost of their health insurance---at least those in the higher-paying positions.

And please be truthful and don't distort. If you tell me your corporations pay full dental, full glasses and full prescription through insurance with no deductibles, I will conclude that you are most probably being untruthful.

Unlike you, I have never been deliberately untruthful or engaged in any purposeful distortions in any of my posts. It’s entirely in character, though, for you to act as if I have or might.

It seems like you have fun taking opposing views and questioning everyone just to get your highs and rises as you identify with your handle as if it was your EGO..

There you go again with that ego thing, again! Pot, meet kettle. CIJ, there is no bigger ego on Potluck than yours. Don’t kid yourself, because you’re certainly not kidding anyone else.

It is time for you to PUT UP some links or Quiet DOWN. I simply have lots of questions regarding your credibility and also regarding your agenda..

I don’t think about my “agenda” much, but to the extent that I have one, I’d say it has three parts: to express my opinion on some of the various topics and/or contribute something when I have something worthwhile to contribute (not always the same thing, I admit); to learn something when somebody else has something worthwhile to contribute; and to try to steer these discussions in the direction of a sober and rational exchange of ideas, where possible. This last part is where most of my exchanges with you come in.

And I don’t care what you think about my credibility. It’s your own credibility you should worry about.

As for quieting down, well, you wish.

I blogged on another thread under a different handle to try to protect her identity. Yes, I was uncovered from my writing style but that is inexcusable and unconscionable to bring my daughter into this discussion even if I was uncovered. I was simply seeking advice for her.....not introducing her to be a punching bag for a loose cannon.

You used another handle to try to protect her identity??? What hogwash! For whose "edification" would you write such a ridiculous comment? Your daughter's? Not only are you almost instantly identifiable any time you post, but you'd been identified on that particular topic using the same handle well before you made the post about your daughter's marijuana use. Does she know that you not only discussed this issue here, but also identified the dance company of which she is a member? The only reason we know anything at all about your daughter is that you’ve volunteered the information.

That said, it wasn’t one of T.B.’s finer moments. Your daughter certainly doesn’t deserve to pay a price for your indiscretions. But if you don’t want him to bring up your daughter again, then maybe you should stop your constant, silly references to his family. Do you really think any rational, mature person buys into your insinuation that his viewpoint on pensions is seriously because his deceased father had a pension, and his brother stands to eventually receive one? Just how much of that money do you think is going to flow T.B.’s way?

Enough is Enough! TB has finally shown his true colors. He is obviously one of them. He has every right to debate and say I want raises for FIRE FIGHTERS.

When did he do that?

But he has no right to pretend he is not a government employee receiving a BIG FAT PENSION.

Really? Did you establish this beyond all reasonable doubt in the same way you once “proved” Experienced is an attorney for the city? T.B. only said he works in public service. He never said he works for the government. Is it possible that he does? Certainly. Do we know this for a fact? Absolutely not. And yet you pretend to act incredulous when I say that you like to be fuzzy with “facts”....

-JQP

Oh, brother!

Will there be time-outs if the truce is broken? CAN there be time-outs... from blogging... IF the truce is broken? Chris, will you do that? Please?

Moderator Magee,

I have Kindergarten Kids offering me a truce.

It can get loud in a Kindergarten Class.

I simply lowered myself to their grade level and accepted THE TRUCE.

Can you blame me?

Just imagine if the TRUCE will stop all the attacks, that will help me get my message through and promote my cause.

Is that not my ultimate mission?

Do you not want all this dickering to stop?

Imagine if this TRUCE succeeds, we both will have accomplished our goals.

If it succeeds we can give TB the Nobel Prize since he suggested the TRUCE. I think he would deserve it if quiet finally prevails on this blog site after 3.5 years of this ridiculousness.

Thanks!

CIJ

By Ken on October 26, 2009 2:23 PM
"PS. You, TB, offered a new truce. I did not accept it yet so I can not be in violation."
This from the guy who claims he never starts anything...too funny.

========================================================================================================================================

Comprehension has never been one of your strong attributes, Ken.

Your buddy TB basically accused me of violating a truce we did not have.

Yes, I never start anything.

Here you are Ken, joining in. Did I start with you, no? Am I interested in starting up with you? No! When was the last time I had an exchange with you. I can not remember. I have had an unwritten truce with you. Why violate it as you just did?

If TB wants a truce he can have it. I like his original truce where he does not comment about my blogs and I don't comment about his. He leaves me alone and I leave him alone. He broke that truce a few weeks ago when he could not control himself and said he had to make an EXCEPTION and respond! Why break down if you value a truce?
Why not blog on the other 8 threads on the Main Page that I have no interest in? Why not comment on others bloggers posts on the same thread? Do you ever see me chasing him down on another thread I have no interest in just to retaliate for what he does to me on threads I have an interest in? It will never happen. I am not into games. But I feel an obligation to defend my credibility and reputation on this blog site so my MESSAGE can be heard. I am about the MESSAGE not the MESSENGER. I am about the CAUSE not the EGO of the BLOGGER!

Let us see how long it lasts.

I hereby accept his truce and will no longer respond to his blogs, mention him, any of his family members, any Big Fat Pensions they may or may not receive and focus on my agenda of higher and higher taxes generated by more and more goverment waste.

****************************************************************************************************************************************

THE TRUCE IS ON. I AM HEREBY ACCPETING IT.

****************************************************************************************************************************************

I have no interest in attacking fellow bloggers or I would never accept a TRUCE.

Best Regards,

CIJ

"PS. You, TB, offered a new truce. I did not accept it yet so I can not be in violation."

This from the guy who claims he never starts anything...too funny.

JQP,

All your jobs provided dental and prescription drug benefits....huh!

I don't think that is the issue.

The issue is who pays for it....you or the company.

If both pay for it what percentage do you pay and what percentage do they pay???

In the case of the City, employees only pay 10% for DENTAL. That was documented during the City Council Meeting. This shocked not only the non-Establishment city council members but the Establishment city council members as well. And the Benefits Managers was even trying to obtain additional benefits at greater cost to taxpayers in this downtrodden economic climate.

Many of our council members have jobs in the private sector and they were shocked by the low contribution of city employees.

Don't beat around the bush, JQP. Tell us what percentage you contribute, 10% or less.

And please be truthful and don't distort. If you tell me your corporations pay full dental, full glasses and full prescription through insurance with no deductibles, I will conclude that you are most probably being untruthful.

So be brutally honest and tell us the blunt truth. And if you get better coverage than City Employees tell us the name of your company or provide a link to prove your company pays better coverage. If you have a dental plan better than the one for the city you probably work for a very large successful company, so don't worry about being identified. I honestly know of no company in America that pays better than 10% dental....it does not mean they don't exist...just don't know of them. How many do you know? Name them since you are a great researcher.

It seems like you have fun taking opposing views and questioning everyone just to get your highs and rises as you identify with your handle as if it was your EGO.

It is time for you to PUT UP some links or Quiet DOWN. I simply have lots of questions regarding your credibility and also regarding your agenda.

TB pretended he was not in public service. In the heat of an emotional moment he broke down and pretty much admitted he was a government employee, that his brothers were and that his deceased father was. While he did not admit they were all receiving BIG FAT PENSIONS, I will go on record and say they PROBABLY were, are or will be.

He seems to think that we should keep home rule because Roselle is considering it foolishly. Why should we as citizens be so naive to have home rule and alllow our corrupt city officials to increase taxes every year over 5%. Some years 11%. Why not eliminate HOME RULE and limit the drunken sailors to 5% credit card increases which is plenty. (I am sorry but I got tired of repeating FISCALLY IRRESPONSIBLE one too many times.)

Putting a cap on these DRUNKEN SAILORS in City Hall forces them to at least make some cuts in government waste that exceed the 5% allowed for increased taxes by the generous state statutes. Having HOME RULE allows them to tax us as if we were PRINTING MACHINES for money.

Enough is Enough! TB has finally shown his true colors. He is obviously one of them. He has every right to debate and say I want raises for FIRE FIGHTERS. But he has no right to pretend he is not a government employee receiving a BIG FAT PENSION.

That is deception. I was right all along when I thought TB was being disingenious. Now we all know he was!

And he showed he was a man of poor judgmental abilities and skills when he dragged my daughter onto this thread and into this topic that was of no concern to her and should have been no concern to him. He even lied and distorted the truth about her.

I blogged on another thread under a different handle to try to protect her identity. Yes, I was uncovered from my writing style but that is inexcusable and unconsionable to bring my daughter into this discussion even if I was uncovered. I was simply seeking advice for her.....not introducing her to be a punching bag for a loose cannon.

The fact that so many bloggers have not condemned TB for his behavior indicates we have a gang mentality on this blog site that supports the wrongful actions of each other. I think this is despicable that not one person has shown any courage to tell TB that his behavior in attacking a child even if she had a troubled past is inappropriate.

CIJ

PS. You, TB, offered a new truce. I did not accept it yet so I can not be in violation. When you start behaving and acting like an adult, I would be more than happy to accept your truce. We had an old truce where you avoided me, and you broke your own truce and resumed attacks on me without provocation.

CIJ wrote:

It is not OK for me to speculate or remark on your opinions and thought processes but it is OK for you to speculate and opine on who I may be in real life.

Go figure!

This is rather ironic coming from you, since you regularly speculate on the identities of virtually every Potluck blogger who disagrees with you, yet you get offended whenever anyone takes a stab at figuring out who you are.

It's also interesting that you would direct that post at me, since my role in the discussions that arise from time to time regarding your identity has mainly been to caution you not to volunteer so much personal information.

BTW, it is not considered good netiquette to use the anchor tag (i.e., <a>) to highlight text. This tag is meant to be used for links.

Another NFPA 1710 fire department staffing standard research link.

The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) is an international
organization of more than 75,000 individuals and more than 80 national trade and professional organizations. NFPA’s mission is to reduce the worldwide burden of fire and other hazards on the quality of life by developing and advocating scientifically based consensus codes and standards, research, training and education.

Who Is Involved
At the time of the final vote on NFPA 1710, the Technical
Committee contained representatives from seven different
classes of NFPA members, including Consumers,
Enforcers, Labor, Manufacturers, Research/Testing, Special
Experts and Users. No more than one-third of the voting
members of the Committee represented one of these
interests, as explicitly required by NFPA rules. The
following is a breakdown of the membership:
• Consumers (City Managers), 2, 6%
• Enforcers (Fire Chiefs, including 3 representatives from
the International Association of Fire Chiefs, or IAFC),
10, 32%
• Labor (Union representatives, including 3 from the
IAFF), 7, 23%
• Manufacturers (Trade Group organizations), 2, 6%
Research/Testing, 1, 3%
• Special Experts, 4, 13%
• Users, 5, 16%

Here is a link to the requirements for NFPA Committee membership.
http://www.hemmingfire.com/news/fullstory.php/aid/598/NFPA_Committees_want_members.html

Link to info on NFPA 1710
http://www.iaff.org/tech/PDF/NFPA1710ImplementationGuide.pdf

NFPA is not just fire service people or groups. NFPA is experts in ALL fields....... DO YOUR RESEARCH, I HAVE ..

By Anonymous on October 23, 2009 5:28 PM
I agree lets do away with free speech especially with those who exercise it!

I'm waiting by my monitor so I can read the truth!

========================================================================================================================================

In a Step Ford Wives Town, you are never told the truth. Free speech has been done away with a long time ago.

Try taking the podium at Council Chambers and exercising FREE SPEECH...lol!!!

So don't waste your time waiting.

You are fed the propaganda your City Officials want you to hear via press releases sent to the local paper that are then published for public consumption and brainwashing.

CIJ

Forensic Accountant Experienced and/or John Q. Public,

It is not OK for me to speculate or remark on your opinions and thought processes but it is OK for you to speculate and opine on who I may be in real life.

Go figure!

CIJ

By Robert Frost on October 23, 2009 2:19 PM
THIS is funny! I'm just disappointed to see you couldn't find anything to rhyme with "Napergate Man"!

Please keep trying................Here's my shot at it:

II do not like the Napergate Man
I do not like green eggs and ham

C'mon CIJ, we know you're laughing.....you are, aren't you?

========================================================================================================================================

Honestly, I am not laughing.

A $14.1 million operating budget deficit, $20.5 million in 1 year losses in the Police and Fire Pension Funds, and a a total City Wide $126.2 million Accrued Actuarial Pension Liabilty Deficit are nothing to laugh about when we taxpayers have to bite the bullet on them.

It is honestly painful to think about it, let alone wirte about it.

Getting my real estate tax bill next year will even be more painful!

CIJ

I agree lets do away with free speech especially with those who exercise it!

We need more opinions from the silent majority like 10:28 below, whatever their opinion is on anything, well maybe they will tell us so we can know normal.

I'm waiting by my monitor so I can read the truth!

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
By anonymous on October 22, 2009 10:28 PM

My opinion--this blog has fallen to an all-time low. I feel that the Sun is caught in a place to keep this blog going primarily for the sake of arguing with certain obstinate posters. "He said she said" is about all we get to here.

I know it's a fairly busy blog, but if we removed all the posts arguing about long repetitive posts and who is more kindergarden like than the other, what would be left?

At least not many people read here, I would hate for outsiders, or even Naperville residents to think the contents of these arguments is who we really are.

THIS is funny! I'm just disappointed to see you couldn't find anything to rhyme with "Napergate Man"!

Please keep trying................Here's my shot at it:

I do not like the Napergate Man
I do not like green eggs and ham

C'mon CIJ, we know you're laughing.....you are, aren't you?

By Anonymous on October 22, 2009 8:38 PM
That CIJ I am,
That CIJ I am,
I do not like that CIJ I am,
I do not like him with a pension,
I do not like her with extensions,
I do not like CIJ in a fire station,
I do not like CIJ in claymation [!]
I do not like words that rhyme with kazoo
I do not like anything, anywhere or under any circumstances that cost me an additional penny, no matter how much anyone else might think it necessary or desirable.

Anonymous on October 22, 2009 12:04 PM
Anonymous on October 22, 2009 8:56 PM

(same anonymous?)
_________

Thank you Anon for the information regarding fire dept staffing. As has been previously mentioned it isn't as easy as simply cutting staff, or shutting down fire stations. If someone can show that Naperville exceeds the recommended requirements it would at least be a viable discussion.

A secondary factor in reducing FD and PD personnel is what the reaction from Naperville's insurance providers would be. The city has to carry insurance just like we do, and if the underwriters feel that the city FD / PD are not meeting guidelines then the rates go up and potentially sets the city up for being dropped as an insurance risk. There is also a reduction in federal government grants given to cities that do not meet the NFPA guidelines so this money would be put at risk as well.

There has been a lot of talk on the Potluck blog about people suing the city over things like slapping a cop and protesting a grievance - imagine what the litigation would be like in the event of a negligence suit brought about my someone injured if the city chooses to not meet the NFPA guidelines?

To Anon 10/22 @ 1:19 PM –

I can’t say I disagree.

The current administration is doing its best to redistribute wealth from the middle and upper classes to the poor. 3% down FHA mortgages which will never be repaid (again), the earned income tax credit, and did you see on the news yesterday about the hundreds of millions of dollars in fraud involved in the $8k first-time home-buyer credit?!?

We’ll never see that money again. It’s spent. And they’ll never get prosecuted for the frauds because the dollar amounts are too low for the US Attorney to care about, they’re busy dealing with political corruption and huge ponzi schemes. We’re suckers….

T.B.

Citizen Investigative Journalist on October 22, 2009 9:07 PM

It was no laughing matter when they decided how to bury the 10 million costs of the Napergate Trials in Executive Session that to this day no one, not even Editor Tim West, Forensic Accountant Experienced or even the Napergate Man himself have been able to uncover.

-----------------------------------------

Are you bandying about my reputation again without regard to the truth? Are you saying that an experienced forensic accountant (pun intended) has tried but has been unable to accomplish a task?

First, didn't you miss someone? You are the great investigative journalist. This is one of your pet peeves. So, why haven't you investigated it and found out the answer? Isn't that what investigative journalists do--investigate? Isn't that what the Woodwards and Bernsteins and Zekmans of this world do? Isn't that what you do? The answer to the last question is NO. You are not an investigative journalist. Nor are you not even a journalist. You are a commentary at best. You are the scuzzy Glenn Beck of Naperville. When you write, truth is not an issue. You "speculate" about the opinions of others without any substantiation that the person actually holds those opinions.

Second, you are making assumptions about me that I have neither said nor even implied. How can I even be said to have not been able to uncover something that I haven't even attempted? One can only be said to have been unable to do something that they haven't tried. I have never discussed Mr. Esmail, let alone commented on the city legal fees in his cases.

Again, this is your issue not mine. You say you are the investigative journalist. So, investigate it. Get off your butt. Stop clipping your coupons. Push away from your computer. And go and ask the cogent questions necessary to get an answer to this issue. If you don't know the cogent questions, start your "investigation" by researching that issue. That is what investigative journalists do. They research the background of their issue. Stop being the scuzzy Glenn Beck of Naperville and become the Pam Zekman instead.

By anonymous on October 22, 2009 10:28 PM

At least not many people read here, I would hate for outsiders, or even Naperville residents to think the contents of these arguments is who we really are.

========================================================================================================================================

What proof do you have that many people don't read this blog site? Maybe you can say many people don't write here but you can not say many people don't read. Did you do a Nielson Survey to come to that conclusion?

As I said in my earlier post, can you judge the number of readers of the print edition of the Sun by the number of Letters to the Editor.

Only a handful of people write Letters to the Editor each week. Can we conclude that the Naperville Sun is lying when they say they have 16,800 subscribers and probably twice as many readers as that number just because only a few WRITE?

I know many of my neighbors, friends and relatives read this blog site. I have told many people at my health club about it and they also read it. People find reading much less of a chore than writing. So there will alway be many more readers than writers. That is common sense that those who are attacking this blog site don't have....that those who want to destroy this blog site and take away its credibility don't have.

What they have is fears that a Cover-up will be exposed? Fear that we will have another Napergate Style Cover-Up uncovered!

It takes one minute to read a 3 page blog. It takes one hour to write it and I am extremely fast. Most people can't even write one page in one hour, so of course writers will always be fewer than readers.

For everyone whom writes a book, there will/may be 100,000 readers or more to that book. But only one writer.

I think Moderator Magee should challenge the doubters to produce evidence that this site has no readers or TELL THEM TO SHUT UP.

Would it be a better blog site, if Moderator Magee would stop the attacks? Of course, but he is the BOSS and can run his blog site as he wishes. Maybe he feels more readers are attracted if you throw in some sensationlism with good journalism. We are not allowed to speculate on what he is thinking so I will stop while I am ahead.

I am only wishing that he will prove the critics wrong and that one day this Blog Site will be as influential as the Napergate ads and even more!

Thank you.

CIJ

My opinion--this blog has fallen to an all-time low. I feel that the Sun is caught in a place to keep this blog going primarily for the sake of arguing with certain obstinate posters. "He said she said" is about all we get to here.

I know it's a fairly busy blog, but if we removed all the posts arguing about long repetitive posts and who is more kindergarden like than the other, what would be left?

At least not many people read here, I would hate for outsiders, or even Naperville residents to think the contents of these arguments is who we really are.

By Anonymous on October 22, 2009 4:08 PM
By Naperguy on October 22, 2009 1:13 PM
YOU ARE CORRECT. I could not have said it any better.

p.s. The councilman I spoke to this week stated that he does read this blog.... he further stated it gives "me a good laugh when I've had a bad day."

========================================================================================================================================

I guess we now are sure 4 Council Members read it if he is not one of the 3 that I already know read it. Do you mind providing the name of the Council Member so we can begin documenting how many read it? And keep in mind Councilman Furstenau's kids have blogged on Magee's Site using their real names. If that is not proof that Furstenau reads this blog site, I don't know what is. And I can tell you that CM Furstenau is not the council man who gets a good laugh when he reads this site. He takes it seriously and so do his kids who have defended him bravely on this site.

And if this Council Man is getting a good laugh, let me remind him it was not long ago that he and his colleagues or former colleagues got a real good laugh reading the Napergate Ads for 10 years.

A real good laugh until the Napergate Man was able to fill City Hall with residents wanting accountability. A real good laugh when speakers were limited to 30 a night even though many more wanted to speak. A real good laugh when they asked speakers not to speak if they were going to repeat what any other speaker said.

And I don't think these council members were laughing at the Napergate Man and his ads when they went into EXECUTIVE SESSION and surrendered out of the view of the public and cameras. That quiet surrender took place after the Illinios Appelant Court and the US 7th Circuit Court of Appeals told them the Napergate Ads were no laughing matter.

It was no laughing matter when they decided how to bury the 10 million costs of the Napergate Trials in Executive Session that to this day no one, not even Editor Tim West, Forensic Accountant Experienced or even the Napergate Man himself have been able to uncover.

Laugh all you will at this Blog Site. Laugh all you will at how few people read it. It was reported in the Napergate Era that no one reads those Napergate ads either. That the Napergate Man was really the Magic Man and was able to fill City Chambers through magic. That he was able to organize 400 person protests through magic. That his petition signers came through magic even though they had to be authenticated and notarized before being introduced into the court system. The Napergate Ads in that time had no influence just like Magee's Blog Site.....it all happened through OSMOSIS and MAGIC...lol all you want!!!

In the Napergate Era only 100 residents wrote Letters to the Editor of the Sun each year. Many of these same residents wrote multiple letters. Since only 100 wrote, does that mean only 100 read? Why then would the Naperville Sun have 23,000 subscribers and over 50,000 readers in the Napergate Era as a newspaper? Just to look good!

I understand at this point this Blog Site is not read like the Napergate Ads. I have said repeatedly it only has 1/100th the power or maybe even only 1/1000th the power of the Napergate Ads. But it has potential just like the pre-Napergate ads that were written by the Napergate Man but titled differently and later became Napergate I thru XXXXIV.

But it is my goal to one day make this Blog Site as powerful as those Napergate Ads. We just need a few more serious bloggers like MYSELF and not nonsensical one liners who contribute nothing to the debate but attacks, nonsense and nastiness. It was not enough for them to cut ME down. Now they are attacking the Blog Site that they blog on and pretty much calling it useless and irrelevant. They are biting the hand that feeds them. They are lucky we have a Moderator who has high tolerance....who values Freedom of Speech and will allow his blog site be attacked and degraded....maybe he like the Napergate Man is waiting to have the LAST LAUGH one day. Moderator Magee seems like a brilliant fellow to me who has a plan that he wants to execute successfully. I have little doubt he will succeed when his Kindergarten Children begin grasping. I don't doubt it will take a while as he refuses to throw anyone out of class.

I think bloggers with inferior complexes enjoy attacking personalities over messages....and now the media mechanism over the message.

I am very confident our city officials are taking at least ME seriously since I am serious in what I say. Since I am providing facts that are true with the appropriate links. I am sure they are laughing at all those who are laughing at me since they must have learned from the Napergate Days it does not pay to laugh at a MESSAGE that could one day come and bite you in the behind. That it does not pay to MOCK the MESSENGER(NGM) who took them to the cleaners and cleaned them out.

I believe City Officials are beginning their reforms. I believe their tone has switched from lets raise taxes to see where we can cut. If they don't care about what we are saying, why did they switch their tones. I am sure they also got a few calls. I am sure they also got a few e-mails. I am sure they also had their ears talked into while walking the family dog. Everything helps to reach a Council Member.

In my opinion the council members are mostly all FAILURES. In the initial meetings, they only considered raising taxes unless the Naperville Sun reporter was biased and did not give them a fair shake in her article. She did not mention a word about cuts in government waste. None of them protested her article as being inaccurate or slanted.They were fighting and dickering with each other only about what kind of tax would be more appropriate. Thinking in the box as any Stepford Wife Council would do. I doubt that a Sun Reporter would try to make the city look that bad. Most can't wait for the City of Naperville to hire them in public relations and put them on a plan and a path to a Big Fat Pension. So I doubt they would be tilted against City Hall, a place they dream to work for one day. Who would not want to retire at age 52 with a Big Fat Pension and Health Benefits to boot till Medicare kicks in at 65 or 66 and sit in a rocking chair with cigar in mouth......or if not lazy DOUBLE DIP!!!

Keep laughing at this Blog Site. Keep saying it has no impact. I will keep laughing at your ignorance and stupidity. I feel this Blog Site has a great future. Mark my words! Underline them if you wish!

If you feel it is nonsense, why are you here? Why are you wasting your time? Don't you have anything better to do than waste your time and energy.

I am here trying to reduce my total tax bill from 70K to 50k again by holding my City Officials accountable for the waste of my tax money. I am here speaking for my apartment dwelllers who can no longer bear any increases coming from taxes, CAM or insurance. My property insurance just came in at 15% higher this month. I will absorb it and not pass it on. If my real estate tax comes in higher, I will also have to absorb it and not pass it on. How much can I absorb though? How much can my apartment dwellers take with their employers reducing their wages and beneifts? How much can those who have lost their jobs borrow from family members after their IDES benefits run out!

This whole thing is no laughing matter. Anyone in City Hall laughing needs get on the roof of City Hall and committ suicide Japansese Style for his or her ignornace and insensitivity. This would be a cost saving measure to the taxpayers. Putting snipers on the roof of City Hall to protect it against peaceful tax protestors is a waste of taxpayer money.

And finally, if the bloggers did not think my POWERFUL MESSAGES were having an IMPACT, they would not feel a need to attack them day and night when not attacking the MESSENGER. The bloggers some of whom are City Officials in disguise know my message is being heard and resonating....and they are disturbed.

They are probably out looking for the Blogger who gave me a STANDING OVATION for the work I do on this blog site as an INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST. He told me to keep pounding and pounding relentlessly with more facts and links. I intend to do this. He conveyed the same message I had grasped from the Napergate Man while doing my lengthy reseach at Nichols Library 2 years ago. I am sure I am on the right track and I will continue pounding and pounding just like the Napergate Man did and I will eventually see who the LAST LAUGH WILL BE ON!

Thank you!

CIJ

NFPA 1710 does not advocate OVER staffing, NFPA 1710 does not advocate understaffing. The document is a resource for THE CORRECT AND PROPER STAFFING LEVELS. NO ONE IS TRYING TO STATE THAT WE NEED 20 OR 30 FIRE STATIONs. If you would do your research into NFPA 1710 you would know what the correct and proper staffing levels were for a city the size of Naperville. The posting of 1710 was in a reply to those people, on this blog site, that asked the question…. What is the proper staffing standards??
As for the comments about … “If there is a FIRE, I will get a brand new house out of the deal. If there is a FIRE, my insurance company will put me up in a residence until I get my new home bought or built.”
That maybe fine for you, but not for me. I have items in my home that can NEVER be replaced. Items that were handed down for generations, Items that my children made and gave to me, Items that can never be replaced and would break my heart if they were ever lost.
The fire department does a great job at saving and/or protecting personal property. I have seen the care and compassion first hand. I have seen family heirlooms covered, protected and moved to safety. You may not care about your family’s heirlooms, but I care about mine. Further, I would take a bet that most people also care about their personal property and do everything they can to protect them.

That CIJ I am,
That CIJ I am,
I do not like that CIJ I am,
I do not like him with a pension,
I do not like her with extensions,
I do not like CIJ in a fire station,
I do not like CIJ in claymation [!]
I do not like words that rhyme with kazoo
I do not like anything, anywhere or under any circumstances that cost me an additional penny, no matter how much anyone else might think it necessary or desirable.

What?
Oh.
This is the open topic, not the poetry slam blog?
Sorry.

CIJ,

You made a pretty good argument for why we shouldn't have 30 fire stations in Naperville. Unfortunately, it doesn't prove that we can/should close any of our existing stations. But if the issue is that important to you, why don't you get a petition drive going in your neighborhood to close the station that is nearest your house?

-JQP

By Anonymous on October 22, 2009 5:57 PM
CIJ
_______________________________________________________________

RIGHT... I know Ill be waiting for updates from CIJ on how to run the city,county and country... Hurry back, we need u...

========================================================================================================================================

If you were not interested in my UPDATES,

You would not be on this Blog Site.

And more specificially on this THREAD.

If you were not interested you would not be HERE.

You would be somewhere THERE.

You are here because you are INTERESTED.

I will have an UPDATE for you shortly for your DISINTEREST.

Yes, anyone who can not think out of the BOX needs ME.

Or maybe needs a BOX to be contained in instead of ME.

Anyone who thinks like a ROBOT needs ME.

Anyone who recites like a PAROT needs ME.

Do I need to write a poem?

Please be patient!

An UPDATE will be HERE.

Please have no FEAR!

CIJ

CIJ

Ps. Sorry I have been missing for 22 hours but I do have a life and children. I will try to catch up on all your comments directed towards me by tomorrow.
_______________________________________________________________

RIGHT... I know Ill be waiting for updates from CSI on how to run the city,county and country... Hurry back, we need u...

By Anonymous on October 22, 2009 12:04 PM
By GJC on October 13, 2009 2:25 PM
“I quite like the idea that a reevaluation of the purported over-staffing of the fire department be undertaken to see if it is actually so, by people who know what they're talking about, that is, professionals.”

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

People in the FIRE INDUSTRY protect each other and promote each others veiws...no matter what level of the industry they are in. The National Fire Protection Association is probably not an unbiased organization.

We all want safey and more safety...but there is a cost factor.

No one can dispute that having 20 Fire Stations at a cost of $70 million is better than having 10 Fire Stations at a cost of $35 million. No one can dispute that having 30 Fire Stations at a cost of $105 million is better than only having 10 or 20.

But at some point reason has to prevail.

Here is the REVERSE LOGIC of FIRE LOGIC. By not having 30 Fire Stations in Naperville and ONLY 10 Fire Stations aren't we possibly risking lives? Is not some child going to die in an apartment because it took 5 minutes to get to her instead of only 2 minutes?? How could we be so insensitive to the life of child? Do our City Officials have their bearings fastened on properly? It does not appear so because they do not understand that the life of a child can not be measured in money...it is INVALUABLE!

As Fire Fighters well know a fire goes from IGNITION to FLASH in exactly 3 minutes. Aren't are City Council Members being grossly negligent for not caring about that child that could have been saved if we had 30 Fire Stations instead of only 10. Shame on the City Council for not caring about this poor child who just lost her life. Shame on them for worrying about money and not spending $105 million. This is the REVERSE LOGIC FIRED BACK AT FIRE FIGHTER PHILOSOPHY.

The bottom line is this. We have about 50,000 households in town(the blogger who said only 43,000 is wrong and I don't want to use his wrongful number for the purpose of exaggerating the cost per residence) and it would cost each resident $2100 dollars on his real estate tax bill if we wanted to have 30 fire stations so we can save this POOR CHILD who needs to be reached in 2 minutes instead of 5 minutes to have a CHANCE.

The next question should be are RESIDENTS willing to pay $2100 dollars for this possibility to save a child. There is no value that could be put on the life of a child. I know! I have 4 chidren that I love immensely. But I am not willing to spend this kind of money.

I spend time practicing safety. I make sure my smoke detectors are always working. I added a feature with my burglar alarm company, ADS, that gives you an additional smoke detector with an extremely loud alarm that can wake anyone from any DEEP SLEEP for only $5 a month or $60 dollars a year. I am confident with all our alarms and smoke detectors there will be no risk to life in our family.....God Willing!

Do I care about my home? Of course I do. Can I afford to lose it after I fully paid the MORTGAGE on it? Of course not. But I have HOME INSURANCE that cost me a little over a $1000 a year and my HOME will be replaced for me. Unlike the old days our pictures are backed up on PHOTO WEB SITES and can be retrieved even if there is a fire.

If there is a FIRE, I will get a brand new house out of the deal. If there is a FIRE, my insurance company will put me up in a residence until I get my new home bought or built.

So what is the BIG DEAL here.

No matter how many how many FIRE STATIONS they put up in Naperville there is NO GUARANTEE they can be there in less than 3 minutes before IGNITION BECOMES FLASH. Thus I am never cancelling my HOME INSURANCE so I can afford to pay $2100 dollars to the Fire Dept. on my real estate tax bill. Is anyone else in town willing to cancel their HOME INSURANCE to pay the FIRE DEPT 3 times as much so they can come in 3 minutes instead of 5 minutes? Let us face it 3 minutes instead of 5 minutes will save a life sometime in the next 100 years. Please factor that in you decision when making it.

Go out and add this second ALARM FEATURE from you alarm company if you are worried your smoke detector is not loud enough. And be smart and never leave a young child home without a parent as that is not only stupid but illegal.

So I don't buy any of FIRE CALLS being screamed out in a theater by the FIRE DEPARTMENT and its diehard supporters.

I am only asking them to cut 10%. If they think their present staffing is very important for our safey, well I am not going to argue with them. I am only suggesting they cut 10% of expenses any way they see fit just like every other department and to keep the service level the same or even improve it by being more efficient as we all can....as we all are capable without exception. Last time I checked God did not create the PERFECT BEING. I don't want to hear any whining or crying. We are all suffering here in this recession. Sacrifices must be made by all without exception. Just Do It!

I have no probem if each Fire Fighter wants to take a 10% pay cut resulting in a 10% pension pay cut and protect their brethren from being laid off. I am all for this. In towns like Hinsdale and Oak Brook, it is my understanding that Fire Fighters refused pay-cuts so they laid FFs off. Three I believe in Hinsdale and one in Oak Brook.

As they say there is more than one way to skin a cat! Let the new Fire Chief skin the cat as he pleases, but the cat must be skinned. He is still in his GRACE PERIOD. That is why I have never mentioned him or held him responsible. I am giving him time to PERFORM....plenty of time but the clock is ticking and will soon be MIDNIGHT!

Thank you!

CIJ

Ps. Sorry I have been missing for 22 hours but I do have a life and children. I will try to catch up on all your comments directed towards me by tomorrow.

By Naperguy on October 22, 2009 1:13 PM

YOU ARE CORRECT. I could not have said it any better.

p.s. The councilman I spoke to this week stated that he does read this blog.... he further stated it gives "me a good laugh when I've had a bad day." Also, "that blog is only a small group of people, if I want to know what the people of Naperville are thinking I go else were."

He was not putting down this blog, or the Sun, he just likes to hear from "more than a few" when listening to the people.

Naperguy said: "This is basically a site where a few people blog to each other over and over with nary a chance that the outside world knows of their existence."

But...
But...

Behold, St. Napergate Man!
Moderator said kindergarten children!
The Council! They read me, they understand me, they FEEL MY PAIN!
Down with pensions.
Double-Dip. Double-Dip. Ice cream, you scream we all scream for blog sites....................................................

To TB

Non home rule communities do not have to rely on Springfield. Instead, to raise and/or implement new taxes, they need to get voter/resident approval. Before an extra two fire houses would be build, the City would have to outline a referendum and get voters to approve. If they cannot make their case, they don't get to pursue. Same for the wonderful test track.

City Council people do not admit that they have over taxed the residents. They claim they are keeping taxes flat (no change in tax rate). NOT TRUE. With assessment increasing 10 to 15%, they increased taxes by that amount. Look at Lisle, their tax rate has DROPPED!!

Pass out a tea bag for every signature on the petition to abolish home rule.

TB wrote

"The corrupt Chicago politicians who currently run Springfield don’t give a rat’s ass about Naperville, unless they can find a way to siphon off more of our wealth."

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Corrected version:

"The corrupt Chicago politicians who currently run Springfield and the Federal Government, don’t give a rat’s ass about Naperville, unless they can find a way to siphon off more of our wealth."

They are siphoning it off by running up the FED credit cards, then passing the tax bill on to Naperville since much of Obama's targeted voter base pays no Federal Income Tax yet gets a rebate and stimulus checks for new TVs.

Just like they are re-creating the Federal Housing Bubble again, FHA evictions have stopped and the FHA is making 3% down loans again to people who will never be able to make the payments. Next will be lets give the houses to the needy and exempt them from local taxes to be FAIR. Watch.

Not CIJ

CIJ,

Naperville has 43,000 residences and a population of +150,000. There are about 20 regular posters here. Other than the last few weeks I haven't posted or read these blogs in a year. The names I currently see posting (other than the anonymous') are mostly the same people posting last year. No new names, no new blood. Don't delude yourself into thinking that the city council or senior staff are "closely following the tone of this blog site". This is basically a site where a few people blog to each other over and over with nary a chance that the outside world knows of their existence.

By GJC on October 13, 2009 2:25 PM

“I quite like the idea that a reevaluation of the purported over-staffing of the fire department be undertaken to see if it is actually so, by people who know what they're talking about, that is, professionals.”

I am posting this in hopes that some of you will review the links attached below. These links will help you to understand the basis for fire and ems staffing. Contained in the links are staffing standards as set forth by the National Fire Protection Assoc and viewed by courts across the country as THE national standard.... The current NFPA 1710 standards are dated 2004 and a recent 2010 update. THESE ARE NOT OLD STARDARDS, BUT CURRENT , MODERN AND UP TO DATE BASIS FOR FIRE DEPARTMENT AND EMS STAFFING.

To those on this blog site that think cutting firefighter staffing and closing fire stations would save money, I would ask that you review the links cited below. In one of the links the Providence fire department did a study covering firefighter safety, station and manning reductions. The study shows an increase in over all costs. This study has been applied, in court, to several fire department staffing cases (both large and small departments).

The other links contain information covering NFPA 1710 and SAFER grants from the federal government. In NFPA 1710, fire department staffing standards are set. These standards have also been used in many court cases covering firefighter injuries.
A quote from one of those links..

The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) recently issued a new standard regarding the organization, deployment and staffing of career fire departments–NFPA 1710. The International Association of Fire Fighters is providing the following questions and answers document to assist the fire and emergency medical service in understanding this standard.

"The modern trend, however, is for courts to find exceptions to this rule, and over the past several years, this doctrine has rapidly eroded in ways that could expose jurisdictions to liability for the foreseeable consequences of their failure to adequately fund or staff their fire departments. Courts recognizing this modern trend will likely consider the NFPA 1710 Standard in determining whether such liability is properly imposed upon public fire departments and their municipalities.

Many NFPA standards have been enacted into law at the federal, state, provincial and local levels. Some have argued that, because jurisdictions having authority are not required to automatically enact a particular NFPA standard, violation of an NFPA standard does not automatically give rise to a finding of liability against a jurisdiction that has not adopted the standard. Having said that, however, one should be mindful that courts frequently rely upon NFPA standards to determine the “industry standard” for fire protection and safety measures. Judicial reliance on NFPA doctrines is most frequently found in common law negligence claims. To prevail in a common law negligence claim, the plaintiff must show that the defendant owed a duty of care to the plaintiff; that the defendant breached this duty of care; and that this breach
was the cause of the plaintiff’s injury.

The NFPA 1710 Standard could be found to be highly relevant to the question of whether a jurisdiction has negligently failed to provide adequate fire or emergency medical protection to an individual harmed in a fire or medical emergency. To prevail in such a claim, the individual would have to show that the jurisdiction failed to provide the level of service required by the standard, and that this failure was a cause of his or her injury.

Because the NFPA 1710 Standard is the first international standard to establish a benchmark level for fire and emergency medical response capabilities, there is little precedence governing how the standard might be used in such lawsuits. It is safe to assume, however, that the level of fire and emergency medical service provided by a jurisdiction will be compared to the NFPA 1710 Standard in courts considering such lawsuits even where the particular jurisdiction has not specifically adopted the standard. As such, it is fair to say that a jurisdiction assumes some additional legal risk by failing to abide by the NFPA 1710 Standard even where it has failed to explicitly adopt the standard."

Save a few dollars now. When a firefighter or taxpayer is injured, and staffing levels are reviewed against national studies and standards, get ready to loose your shirt in court.

If you look at nothing else on this list….. watch the first two YOUTUBE videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kay3VsEXDY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n35MklU6fis&feature=related

http://www.nfpa.org/itemDetail.asp?categoryID=999&itemID=24346&URL=Codes+and+Standards/Code+development+process/

http://firefighterclosecalls.com/downloads/Providencestaffingstudy.pdf

https://www.firegrantsupport.com/safer/faq/07/faq_natstand.aspx

home.comcast.net/~billfoss/ media_NFPA1710.doc

http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/science/hsy87543.000/hsy87543_0.HTM

http://www.firegrantsupport.com/safer/

http://www.iafc.org/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=524

http://www.publicsafetymed.com/Redmond%20docs/1710Q&A.pdf

Experienced –

I just wanted to make sure there was no misunderstanding between us. Someone either has reading comprehension problems or he’s trying to create a rift between us.

T.B.

----------------------

Normally I take what is said with a grain of salt. I think I already addressed such statements in an earlier comment to which you agreed.

Enough –

Although I agree that Naperville needs to do a better job with the budget, do you really want to become more dependent on the likes of Mike Madigan and John Cullerton? I’d rather keep government local. The corrupt Chicago politicians who currently run Springfield don’t give a rat’s ass about Naperville, unless they can find a way to siphon off more of our wealth.

**********

Experienced –

Unlike what was posted here earlier, I have no reason to doubt you met with a city official who said he reads this blog because I never said nobody from the city reads the blog.

What I did say was that Tim West does not (per Chris) read these posts. I also said that this blog does not affect anything in government. To do that, you have to get out and actually do something.

I just wanted to make sure there was no misunderstanding between us. Someone either has reading comprehension problems or he’s trying to create a rift between us.

T.B.

This from Center on Budget and Policies Priorities

In 2009, the average employer-sponsored health insurance plan is valued at $4,824 for a single individual and $13,375 for a family

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=2957

This looks to be close to the current costs for City of Naperville employees. In reviewing the video and agenda from the Tuesday council meeting, I find it odd that the council would create so much drama out of a lack of bids when they themselves hired the consultant in 2008 to negotiate medical and evidently extended a second year contract to that consultant (Aon). Where were those consultants on Tuesday night? This council does not seem to have a handle on their own directives.

TB,

Regarding your post on Roselle. I would tell them NO.

Naperville was responsible with home rule for over 20 years. Since Buchard came (and now Junior Krieger), the finances of the City have been a MESS. Tax increases for at least three year straight at over 10 percent (way over the non home rule tax cap limits). Other new taxes.

Compare this to non home rule Lisle to the east. They have lived within their CPI limit for the past five years. A response, they don't have a fire department. TRUE. But Lisle Woodridge Fire Protection district has also lived within the tax cap for the last five years.

NO to home rule in Roselle and TAKE IT AWAY from Naperville to lower taxes.

I should add that all of my jobs have also provided a prescription drug benefit.

Anon on 10/21 @ 3:27 PM –

I wasn’t trying to draw any conclusion from my earlier post regarding Roselle and home rule; I was simply trying to bring the topic back to something…constructive (for lack of a better word).

My own personal opinion is that although home rule has its drawbacks, I’d rather have my city’s fate decided by local officials and local elections than by the pinheads down in Springfield who seem to be increasingly beholden to the politicians in Chicago. I would hate to leave our fates in their hands. The last thing we need here is to be more dependent on their corruption.

**********

The Great Truce lasted just an hour and 50 minutes before MHB couldn’t help but mention me again?!? Say it isn’t so.

Not the Napergate crap again? You have to be kidding.

Oh, and no, I still don’t believe you.

**********

Experienced –

If the $16k per person benefit is for real (which I doubt since that would be I the range paid to NYC brokers), then the Dems will have a field day with their proposed tax on any benefits over…what?...$8k for a single person? Or did they raise it to $12k?

T.B.

Citizen Investigative Journalist on October 21, 2009 6:40 PM

Think about that for a second, GENIOUS!

______________________

I almost forgot the best part: CIJ just called me a genious!! Just like Chris once called you intelligent, and you keep repeating it over and over and over, I can now tell everyone that according to CIJ I am a genious.

What an honor, Thank You CIJ.

Citizen Investigative Journalist on October 21, 2009 6:40 PM
----

Only you CIJ could get that worked up over a typo on your part. It was a joke - think about it Einstein, how would you actually "pay as you go" on something like life insurace - something you can't buy after you are dead!!

You get so worked up over everything that you don't even see the joke.

By Citizen Investigative Journalist on October 21, 2009 4:55 PM
Back to the Budget and Chaos in City Hall

We have about 1000 City Employees. Our Medical Benefits for our employees are nearly $16,000,0000 according to CM Furstenau. That is almost $16,000 per employee per year for health benefits.
-------------------

Is that before or after employee contributions?

Employee Benefits in the United States:

* Employers paid 82 percent of the cost of premiums for single coverage and 71 percent of the cost for family coverage, for workers participating in employer sponsored medical plans. The employer share for single coverage was greater in State and local government (90 percent) than in private industry (80 percent). For family coverage, the employer share of premiums was similar for private industry and State and local government, 70 and 73 percent, respectively.

You seem to be throwing out incomplete information.

Do you know the percentage of employees who actually get coverage as you mentioned?

If 100% of Naperville employees get coverage and only 60% of the rest of the working population gets coverage, then there is a real difference.

Also, the coverage for public employees (deductible, copay etc...) may be different than the coverage for the workers who participate in employee sponsored plans. And what really matters in this particular case is what the Naperville employees pay, not national averages.

Simple percentages of premium paid among those who participate in plans is not a full comparison.

I do not know the answers to these questions, but the answers may help people figure what makes sense.

-1

In my professional career I have never worked for a company that did NOT offer dental insurance, and I have only worked in the private sector.

By Anonymous ONE on October 21, 2009 5:25 PM
Citizen Investigative Journalist on October 21, 2009 4:55 PM
We have no dental, prescription(eyes) or life insurance for the family. We pay as go on those items.

Interesting CIJ. How do you "pay as you go" for life insurance?

========================================================================================================================================

I said "OR" and not "AND."

Since I said we don't have LI, there is no need to pay as you go for something you don't have. Why would I pay as I go on LI since I said I DON'T have it. Think about that for a second, GENIOUS! Bring it on all you want, it will only BACKFIRE!!!

We don't have life insurance and we pay as we go on dental and prescriptions. Is really this the best you can do to rebutt the important things I have to say???

One blogger yesterday gave me a STANDING OVATION for what I do on this blog site.

All I did was write a report on the City Council Meeting. The 40% for benefits mentioned by another blogger was in relation to DENTAL by a City Council Member. A reporter can cover a City Council Meeting without research and verifying what they say. She just needs to quote them as I did.

My 3 corps gave 0 DENTAL and 0 PRESCRIPTIONS but a percentage of medical which I can not recall without researching.

So the other blogger needs to post US GOVT DATA on percentages for D and P as was discussed at the City Council Meeting....not MEDICAL which was NOT discussed. Also he needs to provide a link so we know he is talking about 2009 and not 1999. Private employers have cut down immensely in recent years so I suspect his data is old since the govt. is usually years behind with its reports.

Medical will be discussed next Council Meeting. The issue there was mostly lack of competitive bids and paying 16k per employee for health benefits. I don't know the percentage on that one. That is why I asked if anyone knew and could help me out.

I doubt Private Corps are stupid enough not to get a competitive bid and pay 16k per employee for medical insurance.

I bet any research will show failing marks on the performance of our Benefits Manager!

I know I can buy health insurance for a group that large for at least 25% less assuming it is loaded especially due to economies of scales that the city posses...unless everyone in the City has diabetes due to obesity caused by EXCESS FAT! That is a $4 million savings on the budget.

This assumes everyone in City Hall has pre-existing conditions short of diabetes and cancer, since I pay less than 10k for insurance premiums for a family of 6 with only two pre-existing conditions and a $1750 deductible for the family plan.

CIJ

Now maybe someone can help me out here. I thought when reading a while back that City Employees make no contribution for their Medical Benefits.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

They do make contributions to their medical benefits. You could probably wait 2 weeks when council gets all the facts at the next meeting or do a FOIA.

Honestly CIJ, a lot of people know who you are and know you are unemployed with a lot of free time to sit here and blog. The problem with blogging is it's not reality, it's a fantasy world where you can make up facts and numbers and family members and sound important. I watched the council meeting too. I didn't get the same feelings that you did, staff was given 2 more weeks to provide more data to council, I wouldn't jump to conclusions just yet. Wait for the facts to come out.

When you have to go out to bid each year for dental insurance as was stated at the meeting, your price may increase and you may end up with new services. That's what happens when you go out to bid.

Citizen Investigative Journalist on October 21, 2009 4:55 PM
We have no dental, prescription(eyes) or life insurance for the family. We pay as go on those items.

Why can't professionals at the Naperville Sun pump out stories like I do. Seriously!

_________________

Interesting CIJ. How do you "pay as you go" for life insurance?

And as for the Sun "pumping" out stories like you do? As a newspaper, and not an anonymous blog site, they have some pesky hindrances like "facts" and "research" that must be met with a burden of proof. In an effort to not attack you, I'll just say your burden of proof is much much lower when you blog anonymously. (I say "anonymously" because I don't believe your real name is actually CIJ?).

I don't know how people can throw random percentages out and have other people believe it as truth. 40%?? Sometimes thinking before speaking is a good idea. This data is from the US Dept. of Labor...

* Employers paid 82 percent of the cost of premiums for single coverage and 71 percent of the cost for family coverage, for workers participating in employer sponsored medical plans. The employer share for single coverage was greater in State and local government (90 percent) than in private industry (80 percent). For family coverage, the employer share of premiums was similar for private industry and State and local government, 70 and 73 percent, respectively.

Back to the Budget and Chaos in City Hall

We have about 1000 City Employees. Our Medical Benefits for our employees are nearly $16,000,0000 according to CM Furstenau. That is almost $16,000 per employee per year for health benefits.

I have to buy all my health insurance as an individual since I don't work for a corp or government. I am able to buy health insurance for a family of 6 for under 10k per year with a $1750 dedcutible. We have no dental, prescription(eyes) or life insurance for the family. We pay as go on those items.

So the City pays more than I do despite the economies of scales they have plus the fact that many City Employees are single and insurance for single people is MUCH less than families, obviously. And keep in mind I am sure that my age far exceeds the average age of a city employee which means my insurance should be higher not lower if the City was doing its job and shopping or bidding the market.

This is INCOMPETENCE. This is INEFFICIENCY. This is INTOLERABLE!

It was exposed at the City Council Meeting last night that City Staff did not bid out a contract for nearly $16,000,0000 in Medical Benefits for Employees even though it had expired and they had the opportunity. Our Benefits Manager under questioning admitted she failed to get additional bids and gave NO EXPLANATION WHY! The sleepy and bored Sun Reporter who could be seen on Cable TV did not even bother to do a story about this. How long does it take to do a story? I can write an article, edit it, dress it up, color it, give it a HEADLINE, easily in less than a half an hour. And I am a layman who never took a class in journalism. We are not talking about BRAIN SURGERY here.

Why can't professionals at the Naperville Sun pump out stories like I do. Seriously! Please consider this constructive criticism Sun Officals and please reply. You are not producing to your MAXIMUM POTENTIAL and when readers see this, they cancel their subcriptions. They want a hard hitting newspaper that tells them what is truly going on in this town and not PROPAGANDA issued in PRESS RELEASES to brainwash the public that everthing is OK and honky dory.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Your paper had PEAK CIRCULATION of nearly 23,000 when you had those Napergate ads. Your circulation dropped to as low as 15,000 and rose to 16,800 last year after the former Editor began exposing City Hall. People wanted to hear what happens behind the doors in City Hall. The NGM found out and told us. No one is telling us now! Why???

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Well, if everything is OK, how come our City Officials spent $14.1 million more than they had? My kids spend less than I give them and save for the rainy days. Are you guys in City Hall less mature than kids and can't save for the rainy days? How come you are always broke when it rains? What the h$ll are you folks going to do when the REAL STORM comes?

Can anyone imagine this latest MEDICAL PROBLEM? An investigation needs to be launched immediately to see if the City Official who does the bidding(or lack of bidding) and our existing HEALTH PROVIDER possibly had favors traded or exchanged? If not, this is UTTER INCOMPETENCE and the employee responsible should be terminated for not obtaining multiple bids on a sum this large....nearly $16 million. City Manager Doug Krieger should be put on probation and told he needs to keep a better eye on his employees that he is ultimately responsible for. The puck stops at him. I gave him a nice GRACE PERIOD. It is over. He is under the microscope and needs to perform.

Mr. Krieger needs to do much better than his predecessor DOUBLE DIPPING ASST CITY MANAGER ROBERT MARSHALL who remains gainfully employed by the taxapayers, while simultaneously receiving a pension by the taxpayers, while working on legally screwing the taxpayers out of a second pension. Unbelievable!!!

Now maybe someone can help me out here. I thought when reading a while back that City Employees make no contribution for their Medical Benefits. But I learned they pay a louzy $2.50 for Dental Coverage for single coverage per month. This is a 10% contribution. This is shameless! This is disgusting! This is partially why we are broke. This is how all this McMansion money evaporates that Diane G and others were wondering about.

If anyone can shed some light with certainty as what city employees contribute to their HEALTH BENEFITS, I would appreciate it???

Sun Officials must know based on their salaries, dismal benefits, and NO PENSION, that City Officials are screwing us....royally! Do any Sun Officials live in the City of Naperville besides Moderator Magee? Do Sun employees care they are being screwed? Do you care that Sun Officals are screwing you, Moderator Magee, or are you not allowed to comment on sensitive issues to keep relations with the City of Naperville kosher? Let us get rid of this Crop of City Officials and get a new Crop of Fiscally Responsible City Officials and then worry about having good relations with them.

Where is Editor Tim West when you need him? He spent lots of times dealing with real life health issues, medical premiums and insurance. He should be able to shed some light here. He should know who the system works with his lengthy experiences.

If he was discussing serious issues on his Blog Site, he would have been a massive success. Instead he only discussed pussy cat issues and his Blog Site failed miserably and almost immediately. I hope he learned from his failures. He is lucky that Sun Officials treat him with Kitten Gloves.

I am so glad that Moderator Mageee did not choose to follow in the footsteps of Editor Tim West and has allowed us to hit hard and expose City Hall. That is one of the major reasons this blog site is a MAJOR SUCCESS.

Now, Sun Officials need to learn something from Moderator Magee if they want to make their Naperville Sun a similar success. I do know that Sun Officials and Council Members read this BLOG SITE but I do not have any factual knowledge if they still read the Sun.

Thank you!

CIJ

========================================================================================================================================

PS. It is very obvious from following the City Council in the last few sessions that they are closely following the tone of this blog site. Like I said 2 Council Members told me point blank to my face that they read this Blog Site and a 3rd CM Bob has blogged here often in the past. I guess TB must not be aware that CM Bob is a City Council Member of the City of Naperville to make his false claims. Does CM Bob not talk to his colleagues about the pulse he grabs from here? Is he a hermit?

TB must not believe Experienced when he stated he met with a City Official who said he reads this blog site. Stop cutting down this blog site, TB. Have some respect for the Moderator who gives you an opportunity to vent. If you think it is useless, what are you doing here. Harassing Bloggers who are trying to accomplish something good for the City of Naperville? And don't forget that the Napergate Man who you apparently know of and researched to some extent, used his Napergate Ads to get the ball rolling on his grass roots movement. Yes, he would run a full page ad in the Naperville Sun and ask people to show up to fight a commercial development and he would pack City Hall. One time I went and there were people in the hallways not able to get a seat holding the doors open trying to listen to his 3 minute speeches. I could not believe it!

These days, City Chambers looks very empty. If we can not do what the Napergate Man did on this Blog Site which I FULLY understand at the moment has 1/100th the power of a full page Napergate Ad, the Naperville Sun certainly can. But you have to write in a way to get the residents boiling. That I believe was the secret of the Napergate Man. Editor Tim West unlike the Napergate Man has no ability to raise anyones temperature. He is simply to mellow! And he will NEVER CHANGE!!!

****************************************************************************************************************************************

And please don't tell me I repeat myself all the time. I raised 2 new major issues today. How many issues has anyone else raised or discussed in the last week?

TB,

I would say to the people of Roselle, "bend over the examining table and cough".

Not CIJ

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
By T.B. on October 21, 2009 9:12 AM

I accidentally put this on the wrong thread yesterday...
CIJ –

Here, this should get your blood pressure back under control…

From today’s Herald:

“As Roselle faces a severe budget shortfall, the village board met Monday to explore whether becoming a home rule community could solve some financial woes.”

Full story at http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=330228&src=88

So what would you say to the people of Roselle, CIJ?

T.B.

TB,

Does this mean that they do not read this blog at the Lantern, VFW or secret handshake club (halls of power in Naperville); or that regardless of the content, they ignore it?

To your second point, if you have the backup data, City Council will sit through a three minute presentation. Since council is supposed to make policy that is good for everyone, if you have a good argument, valid data and valid solutions there is a possibility you can change things without running for Mayor like Clint Eastwood had to do.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

.......it would mean this blog actually matters when it comes to forming public policy and law. IT DOES NOT. This is a great forum to discuss ideas and topics…maybe even get better educated on some matters. But what this forum does not do is affect anything. If I really wanted to affect matters of public policy and defend the use of pensions I would be speaking at the city council meetings, gathering petition signatures, or even running for public office. That’s how policy is affected. Unlike you, I know the limitations of this forum and I’m not fooling myself into thinking that writing something here matters in the least in the real world.

T.B.

CIJ –

You’re so blind sometimes.

Could it be that the speaker Roselle had didn’t “slip up” as you say, but instead gave full disclosure of the implications of home rule? And could it be that holding open forums on the topic and not yet placing it on the ballot is exactly how good government works?

It’s preposterous that you see deviousness in government doing the right thing for a change. Roselle is openly exploring an option and you see something sinister in the mere fact that they’re discussing it.

I don’t need your twisted explanations for anything, but thanks for the offer. If I need anything explained to me, it’s “One Fish, Two Fish, Red Fish, Blue Fish”. That Dr Seuss was on something when he wrote that book.

You’re right, you’re not worth debating. You’re hopelessly close-minded. How about this? You don’t comment on me and I won’t comment on you. You ignore me and I’ll ignore you. Call it the great truce of October 21st, if you will. Since you’re certain the city council is reading this (ha!) maybe they’ll mark this momentous occasion with a new city holiday, complete with city workers getting double time? How grand that would be….

T.B.

P.S. Hey, by writing this, does that make me a union worker in Roselle hoping they’re going to read this, too, and vote for home rule so I can screw the taxpayer?

Citizen Investigative Journalist on October 21, 2009 2:08 PM
They need the same police and fire service we need based on a pro rata population.

____________

Cij, do you have more information regarding "pro rata population"?
Does this means that some type of population formula is used by Roselle (and Naperville) to determine the number of police and fire dept staffing requirements?

If so, then I guess we need to know what this number is and how it is calculated to actually determine if the NPD and NFD are overstaffed? You have called for reductions of both. If your perception is that the NPD stand around like "Potted Plants" (Your exact words), and the fire department sleep much of their time away (again your words), you claim that reducing or eliminating their positions are warranted.

If, however, there is a federal or state requirement (pro rata population) then your battle is not with the city, but with the state / federal who are telling us how many we must have? (I am assuming that the insurance underwriters have a say in this as well as the NFPA).

Home rule governments are exempt from the property tax cap law, can incur debt and impose a variety of taxes including sales, alcohol, cigarette and amusement taxes ­- all without voter approval.

Trustee Ron Sass and Village President Gayle Smolinski said home rule would give Roselle the power to generate more revenue(translates to higher taxes...lol...CIJ)

Currently, Roselle is facing a $1 million budget shortfall that resulted last month in furlough days for all non-union village employees, among other cost-cutting measures. Village Hall is now closed one Friday per month.

Lucansky said the most common resident objection to home rule is expanding a municipality's power to increase taxes.

========================================================================================================================================

T.B.,

Above are excepts from the Daily Herald article. City Officals there are trying to pull a fast one on their populance. They hired a speaker and he slipped up enough for anyone to see through him

They want to take the easy way out and RAISE TAXES as opposed to cutting rolls of fat from UNIONIZED DEPARTMENTS.

They hit the non-Union employees and now they have to have the COURAGE to hit the Union employees to eliminate their deficit of $1 million which is peanuts compared to our $14.1 million deficit even when you pro-rate based on poplulation.

Roselle Officials are panicking and only considering the option of HOME RULE! They did not say they will put it on a referendum yet. Keep in mind Roselle is not loaded with McMansions like Naperville. I can understand how they can have a budget deficit in this recession, but I can NOT understand how we can have one in Naperville, especially if we were frugal from Day One instead of starting when we are behind the 8 ball.

Roselle houses are in the 200k range. They need the same police and fire service we need based on a pro rata population. They don't have the economies of scale we have in this town for City Hall positions. They don't have a commercial, industrial and office base like we do to support our government infrastructure.

It is a blue collar town with below average income.

Roselle Officials don't like their property tax cap that limits real estate increases to 5% annually. They are thinking about screwing their residents like Naperville has screwed us for years and years. Hopefully, Roselle Residents will wake up and say NO, NO, and NO to Home Rule which is mostly a FRAUD on the taxpayers so Government Officials can raise taxes 11% as they did in Naperville last year instead of only 5% as they currently are limited to in Roselle.(BIG FAT TAX INCREASES lead to BIG FAT RAISES and to BIG FAT PENSIONS.)

I don't know what your point is TB. I guess you have no ability to read between the lines. Or maybe you just wanted me to explain the article to you. I hope I did. But it proves the opposite of what you are thinking. Just accept it, TB, that it is important that the Police Dept. and Fire Dept. need to cut rolls of fat like any other department. And since there is a possibility you work for the Naperville Fire Dept. while your brother works for another suburban Fire Dept. It is becoming ever more clear that you are just protecting your greedy interests at the expense of the suffering Naperville Taxpayer. Make your sacrifices like everyone else. Don't brag of being in the PUBLIC SECTOR if you are not willing to make sacrifices for the PUBLIC. That is truly HYPOCRISY to the N/th DEGREE!

I would be happy if the NPD eliminated its 3 million in OT in its ENTIRETY for now. That would cut the Operating Budget in that Dept. by approximately 10%. The NFD needs to be looked at more closely as technology has made fires less likely and accidents less devastating. The NFD may need to reduce their BUDGET 20% to 50%. Imagine they are building a 10th Fire Station in a recession despite no significant growth in Naperville in the last 3 years. Unbelievable!!!! Unwise!!!! Unneeded!!!! Unnecessary!!!!

We need to abolish HOME RULE in this town and force City Officals to live on a budget that would never permit them even 5% increases. I think 5% increases are way too much. Roselle is acting like child basically BEGGING for another credit card because it is in a PINCH. No credit card, Roselle! Spend less. Lay off a few POs or FFs if they won't take furloughs like everyone else in that struggling and brave town has taken. Be braver and bust the fiscally irresponsible and greedy unions! Have no fear!!!

That is my answer, T.B.!

Thank you!

CIJ

It was nice to learn about the benefits of City Employees and Officials last night by watching the City Council.

To show you how ridiculous City Staff are they came up with a proposal to improve their DENTAL PLAN to an even better and more costly one, of course mostly at taxpayer expense. Imagine that in this recession....and you folks tell me City Staff is functioing with all the bearings and screws upstairs intact and functional.

It turns out City Employees only pay 10% for their Dental Care. The taxpayers pay 90%.

Anyway, I was impressed when a few Establishment City Council Members stood up to her and pretty much told her in a nice way "YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR MIND, LADY"

They stated in their own words that it is ridiculous that City Employees only pay 10% while the private sector may pay 40% and more for dental care....if in fact the private sector even receives dental care as a benefit. Maybe some bloggers can inform if they receieve DENTAL CARE in the private sector.( No need for government or public sector employees like TB to comment since they probably don't know what happens in the private sector first hand.)

I worked for 3 Fortune 1000 companies in the past and even in the good old days, I never got DENTAL CARE from my corps. I believe when I was reading the City Financial Statement, it said they also receive Prescription Care as a benefit.(Will talk about Medical Benefits in another post shortly just to keep my posts a little shorter since there is a complaint about their length.) I also never received PC with the 3 Fortune 1000 companies I was employed by even in better times.

Anyway, the City Council sent the City Official packing and told her to bring a comparison to the private sector before returning. They made it clear to her that they would not accept any increase in benefits for City Employees especially in these times. Hopefully, they will never improve benefits for City Employees as long as we have a deficit ANYWHERE on the Financial Statements.

In the past these benefits were rubber stamped. Now the City Council is suddenly doing what we do on this blog site. Comparing City Beneifts to Private Benefits. Debating as we do. Never seen this in watching the City Council for 35-40 years. Maybe some transparency is happpening because some bloggers are raising h$ll at City Hall.

It about time!

And for all you who believe the City Council does not read this blog site, keep dreaming. They are reading and reacting.

Thank you

CIJ

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TB, you made many statements here in the past that I am not worth debating. That it is useless debating me. That you will never debate me again. That no City Officials or Council Members read this blog site. That we can not change policy by blogging. May I ask than, why you are wasting your time here? Honestly!

CIJ –

First of all, you’re making assumptions again. Yes, I said I work in public service. Without going into what I do, all I’ll say is that the definition of “public service” is very broad. I could be a firefighter, a bookkeeper for a non-profit, I could run a food pantry, maybe I starred in a recent ACORN video, or I could be an employee of Catholic Charities. The point is, don’t assume anything you don’t know to be fact.

Oh, really? You’re sorry to hear my father is deceased but not too sorry because my mother is probably collecting his pension? Gee, how charitable of you. But here again, you’re assuming something you don’t know as a fact, aren’t you? There are many possibilities here that you haven’t considered. Is my mother still alive? Were my parents still married when my father retired? Did my father select the option for the survivor’s benefit, or forgo that option for the straight pension? You don’t have a clue, but that never seems to stop you from making an issue of something.

And what if, for example, my mother was collecting some of my deceased father’s pension? What’s wrong with that? He earned it. You hate pensions, we all know. But my father worked hard to serve you and me and earned far less than CPAs who went to work for the big firms and now sit comfortably with their McMansions here and condos in Florida to escape the winters. You really just appear to be jealous of something that you lack. Based on what you’ve said you pay in property taxes I don’t think you lack much, but you really seem jealous of people with pensions.

Yes, you post all kinds of numbers here, but you missed the part where I said NOTHING you write is believable. You cherry pick numbers that support your position, ignore anything exculpatory, and twist things as you seem fit. You can post all the numbers you want and I still will not believe your Chicken Little theories.

Lastly, you keep claiming that I’m just here to defend my (or my family’s) BIG FAT PENSION; however, there’s one fatal flaw in this theory—it would mean this blog actually matters when it comes to forming public policy and law. IT DOES NOT. This is a great forum to discuss ideas and topics…maybe even get better educated on some matters. But what this forum does not do is affect anything. If I really wanted to affect matters of public policy and defend the use of pensions I would be speaking at the city council meetings, gathering petition signatures, or even running for public office. That’s how policy is affected. Unlike you, I know the limitations of this forum and I’m not fooling myself into thinking that writing something here matters in the least in the real world.

T.B.

I accidently put this on the wrong thread yesterday...

CIJ –

Here, this should get your blood pressure back under control…

From today’s Herald:

“As Roselle faces a severe budget shortfall, the village board met Monday to explore whether becoming a home rule community could solve some financial woes.”

Full story at http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=330228&src=88

So what would you say to the people of Roselle, CIJ?

T.B.

CIJ,

Following are two links to Yahoo clips of two highly respected individuals, both with large followings. Both clips help to explain why Naperville's financial woes are the last snow flake on the tip of the iceberg.

1.
http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/article/358228/John-Mauldin-Tax-Hikes-Will-Kill-the-%27Recovery%E2%80%99-Which-Isn%E2%80%99t-Real-Anyway?tickers=^DJI,^GSPC,SPY,DIA,TBT,UDN,GLD

John Mauldin: Tax Hikes Will Kill the 'Recovery’, Which Isn’t Real Anyway
Posted Oct 21, 2009 07:30am EDT by Aaron Task in Newsmakers, Recession

Short version, when the Obama tax increases kick in on the small businesses, the economy will take a $1 Trillion hit for $300 Billion in revenue, money spent by the FEDS yields 1-1 return vs 3-1 for tax cuts.

2.
The Dollar Is Dying a Slow Death, Says Niall 'Ascent of Money' Ferguson
Posted Oct 20, 2009 09:00am EDT by Peter Gorenstein

http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/article/357373/The-Dollar-Is-Dying-a-Slow-Death-says-Niall

Short version, the dollar is sinking so fast the even if foreigners had invested 100% in the US stock market they still lost money. Foreigners will stop lending the US money unless interest rates go up high enough to cover the losses due to the FEDS printing money. So, it's either 10-30% interest rates like a banana republic or hyper-inflation like Weimar Germany or Argentina since Obama and Bernanke continue to print money to pay the bills.

Option #3

A drastic reduction in the size of Government and politicians.

*Across the board pay cuts for Federal Employees except the Military

*Pay freezes for all Government employees

*End free trade (cheap labor) if we still have any factories left, this will create huge gains in employment for those who didn't attend Harvard or work at the TARP banks on wall street, Obama's biggest contributors.

*Deport all 20-30 million illegal alien high school drop outs who consume far more in services then they pay in taxes if they pay anything at all. This is why we have the highest teen unemployment rate in memory, why hire a 15 year old when you can get a desperate 30 year old with no legal rights. Since gangs are responsible for 90% of all crime in the US, the deportation of 500,000 gang bangers would reduce crime by approximately 40% nationwide and end prison overcrowding. If Mexico or Brazil want to check for gang tattoos when they get off the airplane and summarily execute them on the runways, its not our problem if their governments have moral clarity.

*Across the board cuts of 10% in government spending at all levels

*This is off the top of my head, I'm sure I could come up with hundreds of department eliminations in one day.

-Close entire FED entities: HUD, Dept of Education (stupidity), HEW, Fannie Freddi Ginni etc.

-Eliminate the private bank know as the FED, they have only tanked the economy there are plenty of others.

- The FCC and Air traffic control system should be run as private entities like the highly successful UL.

-End daily mail delivery, it was a depression era make work program.

- The FDA is a political entity, close it and replace it with a UL like organization so we don't have congressmen deciding which pills we should take after they get their take.

- Allow the import of drugs from Canada, allow insurance companies to sell across state lines but require permitting from the states to create audit trails and keep the shysters out.

- Stop all funding for NPR and PBS, both government run far left wing propaganda outlets. They can then go the to capitalist pigs and solicit advertisements and contributions to keep the lights on. Same for the far Left NEA.

Unfortunately, the FEDs (both parties, like their is a difference) are so locked into graft, big government ideology and now Marxist ideology the last thing on their minds is taking care of non-TARP citizens. I don't want a welfare check in place of my job as they export it to the highest bidder, this is where the country now stands.

The current plan is to redistribute savings from anyone who didn't binge spend, until we are all reduced to zero. By the time we reach zero, maybe every display device in the country will have a synchronized box with the leader telling us what to think. The FEDs are moving to take over the Internet as I write this. It will be just like East Germany when I visited it with loud speakers on top of telephone polls blaring Marxist speeches into the houses; windows open or shut.

By Anonymous on October 20, 2009 7:09 PM

In case I missed it, does anyone know who or what controls the money in the Naperville Pension Funds?

Who is responsible for investing in what?

____________________________________________

The pension board appears to be responsible for deciding on payouts. The pension board also appears charged with investing funds. (40 ILCS 5/3‑135) Police Pension Code

CB or Experienced or JQP or CIJ may know who exactly makes the financial choices. In the fiscal reports, it just states that the funds are invested consistent with the Illinois Pension Code and have less than 5% in every investment vehicle except US government guaranteed obligations and the Capital World Growth and Income Fund. Investment management fees are to be taken from investment income.

Anyone else with more info on the investment gurus managing the funds?

e^(i*pi)

CIJ wrote:

Further, no one can deny that even though the State of Illinois ordered us to begin decreasing the deficits our City Officials managed to increase them $52.4 million in one year. (IMRF included in this number.)

You keep saying this as if the law requiring full funding of pensions was directed specifically at Naperville. Moreover, I'm pretty sure the city had nothing to do with the increase in the IMRF debt, as that pension is managed at the state level. For that matter, I'd bet that most pensions throughout the country were hit pretty hard by the financial crisis last year.

In case I missed it, does anyone know who or what controls the money in the Naperville Pension Funds?

Who is responsible for investing in what?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
By e^(i*pi) on October 20, 2009 5:38 AM

Anonymous wrote

...the city council or board of trustees of the municipality shall make every legal effort to replenish the fund so that all beneficiaries may receive the amounts to which they are entitled. If, thereafter, there still remain insufficient funds, the beneficiaries shall be paid pro rata from the available funds, but no allowance or order of the board shall be held to create any liability against the municipality, but only against the pension fund.

and Experienced wrote:

The law clearly says that the city is NOT responsible if the fire and police pension plans can't meet their payments

Again, it is a long road to that point and more lawyers than you can count would be involved making sure "every legal effort" was made to replenish the fund and that appropriate amounts were put into the fund via 40 ILCS 5/3‑125. So I am of the opinion that we are responsible to make sure the fund can make its payments. This is clearly a side discussion which will not advance anyone's argument.

The bigger picture is that the PD/FD/... get pension plans so far beyond what anyone else can expect, and we have to pay extra taxes to make up for market losses. Annoying at the least.

To Experienced: Do you believe that 40 ILCS 5/3‑143 was followed or do you think the city got this information and hid it from us in the initially filed financial report?

e^(i*pi)

T.B.,
I constantly present hard core numbers on this blog site right from the City Financial Statements.

I even provide links now as the Former WV Mom suggested.

That is usually how I open my discussions.

I am really not into other bloggers as you think.

I am really here talking to City Officials who read this blog site. I see them responding to my comments such as when I pointed out that BlackFinn American Saloon had signs posted for a 2am closing. The police read my post and made them change the sign almost immediately. Everything can not be a coincidence!

I know 3 City Council members read this blog site and Experienced verfied that a City Official he met, reads this Blog Site.

Let us see how many are going to ask for tax increases tonight after the blasting I gave them the last 2 weeks.

It is all you folks who are obsessed with ME because you can not refute my charges. Or because you want your Big Fat Pensions and the best way to keep them is by calling the MESSENGER INSANE. You probably are the same folks who also called the Napergate Man insane when he was on his 10 year campaign against City Hall. You kept calling him INSANE and he kept getting 3500 petition signers notarized and introduced into court records. You kept calling him INSANE until both the Illinois Appellant ruled in his favor 3-0 and the 7th Cirucit Court of Appeals ruled in his favor 2-1. How soon you forget? Just like I have to be accountable for my past you folks have to accountable for your past. You can't stand it when I bring up the Napergate Man. You have never apologized for the Kangaroo Court you set up for him. You never apologized for lynching him.

And how nice, T.B., that you slipped up in your emotional blog and finally admitted your work in PUBLIC SERVICE where you are most probably working on a Big Fat Pension.

I think with time it is apparent as time lapses and people slip up, who has an agenda here.

Your agenda, T.B., is to protect your Big Fat Pension and that of your brothers. And while you Dad is deceased and I am very sorry about that, there is a possibility that your MOM is receiving his former pension.

When reading about pensions in the NPD and NFD, I was shocked how they can not only be extended to a spouse and child, but also to a surviving father. While all this is awesome if you are on the receiving end, if you are the poor taxpayer trying to pay for these pensions that last almost forever, it is not very pleasant.

You guys can attack me and paint me as you please. But no one has been able to dispute my calculations and facts. No one can deny that the P and F Pension Funds are $96.2 million in the hole. No one can deny that the taxpayers are responsible for this deficit. No one can deny that the Managers of these Pension Funds risked our taxpayer funds to the tune of $20.5 million and now the taxpayer is being called on to replinish them. That we are on the HOOK for their losess.

Further, no one can deny that even though the State of Illinois ordered us to begin decreasing the deficits our City Officials managed to increase them $52.4 million in one year. (IMRF included in this number.)

With all these serious issues, I am really surprised you folks like to change the subject and make it about ME. You have to be blind not to see that this strategy is about attacking the MESSENGER who has a strong and popular MESSAGE. You have to be blind to see that your strategy is failing and will continue to fail.

Cover-ups never work. I guess you were around in the Napergate Era but learned nothing, T.B. You saw a cover-up unfold right before your eyes but it apparently did not register. This is an ongoing cover-up so I don't expect it will register very easily.

Maybe after Experience takes his entourage to City Hall to discuss this latest Cover-Up on pension investment losses, it will finally register with you.

Let us hope so.

CIJ

Put out our own fires? Haul people off to hospitals in the back seats of our cars? If I wanted to live that way, I could move to any 3rd world country. So CIJ - are you getting ready to organize a neighborhood bucket brigade? Are your neighbors ready (or properly trained) to enter a burning building to save you or your property? Do you, who wont even, by your own admission, go and speak at a city council meeting, have the courage to do that - to put your own well being and life on the line to save someone else? Having the courage to lambaste the fire and police anonymously is one thing, entering a burning building is something completely different. I know - I have done it - and no I am not a municipal employee, nor am I collecting any kind of pension. Your silly comments about doing away with the fire department, even for a month are just plain ridiculous. It is statements like those that make people discount anything else you say. By the way, this is not a personal attack - it is my opinion, based on my own experiences and my own knowledge.

CIJ once again dismantles a quoted comment and manipulates it to serve his own purposes.

Is this also how you manipulate your research and numbers, CIJ? Why so fussed up? You bring the blogs anger upon yourself. I think back to Thom Higgins and his resourceful and informative research during some very controversial blogs in the past. People questioned him and there was debate, but he is not hated as you are. In fact, Thom and his debate team are rather respected, I see no respect here for CIJ. Thom would also take a blogger's question and come back with new material and facts. I know there were others on the other side of Thom's opinion doing the same, I apologize for not remembering more names and details, you all did a great job of bringing info here, a little conflict back and forth, but no one was as outrageous as CIJ and his history/ongoing immature nonsense.

I am not Thom, I am not coming into any public pension.

Funny how "anonymous" bothers CIJ. CIJ puts so much personal information and twisted stories on here, when people begin to connect the dots and figure out exactly who he is and what he has stood for in the past, he gets all in a twist...especially if his past remarks/personas here do not support his current attempt at a personality. Talk about a whining situation, over and over again. My goodness, I hope he is a woman, a whining man is just too hard to stomach. Come to think of it, so is a whining woman. Complain and explain yourself into a very lonely place here, CIJ, it's getting worse and worse for you.

Experienced –

Very true. Since MHB has stopped using his aliases to bolster his position (and ego since he also named himself the most popular blogger), he’s resorted to twisting others’ opinions to make it appear that they agree with him. He does it continually with Chris, and has probably also done it with the rest of us. It’s an odd love-hate relationship…he hates you unless you somehow can be made to appear to support him.

T.B.

By anonymous on October 20, 2009 1:43 PM
CIJ says:
"PS. Please attend the City Council tonight and speak against government waste and high taxation. I will not be there because I may not be able to control myself and throw the podium at the City Council. But I will be watching and observing every word that comes out of their mouths about higher taxes. Any council member whom suggests higher taxes will be blasted by ME on this blog site repeatedly as being INSENSITIVE to the NAPERVILLE TAXPAYER

CIJ, are you insane?

========================================================================================================================================

Yes, I am "insane" for demanding our government stop their NONSENSE of increasing our taxes annually and every time they have a deficit, be it in the operating budget or the pension system. Walk your subdivision and you will find everyone agrees with me that government waste and high taxes are no longer acceptable. The taxpayer on Main Street is saying Enough is Enough. The bloggers on this site are not representative of the hard working Naperville Taxpayer who is not allowed to blog during business hours.

What is insane is you and your government colleagues are allowed to blog on taxpayer time and pretend you are civilians. We have exposed TB and he finally has admitted he is a government employee in public service and not only his brothers and unfortunately deceased father. This is what I call EXCESS FAT! That is why City Manager Doug Krieger was able to cut 47 positions and is wondering why no one felt it. Dah!!! You don't feel EXCESS FAT when it is chopped off. We all trim the fat off of our steaks before we eat them. We don't want the fat in City Hall anymore than on our steaks. What don't you get, Anonymous? What is so insane about my thought process? Please tell me! Did you not see that famous quote by City Manager Krieger indirectly admittng that EXCESS FAT exists in City Hall. Do you want me to republish it and be accused of repeating myself?

No Naperville Resident in his right mind unless he is INSANE or a BENEFICARY of HIGH TAXES is for HIGHER TAXES during this terrible recession/depression that is forcing so many Napervillians to foreclose on their homes or file bankruptcy. Taxpayers are spending 15-20 million dollars less at Naperville Retailers because they are borderline broke....at least hurting financially, worried about the future, or saving for the IMPENDING IMPLOSION that is inevitable.

You are probably INSANE, Anonymous, if you think you can convince the bloggers that you are not one of those Big Fat Pension Holders in City Hall. I am convinced you are.

And stop acting like a WIMP and blogging under Anonymous so you can not be held accountable for your nonsense. Be a MAN or a WOMAN and pick a HANDLE! Are you really that DUMB that you can not think of a creative handle? Apparently you just may be!

CIJ

****************************************************************************************************************************************

PS. Since you are dishing it out, let us see how much you can take before you get all rattled up as those before you have. Why don't you try to dispute my numerous numbers for a change?

========================================================================================================================================

Moderator Magee,

If bloggers are going to use the Anonymous Handle to launch their personal attacks, I would like to ask you to consider forcing them to pick a handle and be accountable for at least what they say in Blogosphere. I think your Blog Site would look much more professional if we did not have so many Anonymouses on here. It would be much less chaotic. It may not bother you because you can identify them from their IP numbers but please be considerate to us bloggers and let us help identify them and hold them accountable for their remarks. No one wants to attack the wrong person!

Thank you!

CIJ

By John Q. Public on October 20, 2009 9:59 AM

Actually, it was Experienced's post that seemed to go over your head. There is a huge difference between critiquing someone's opinion and speculating about what that opinion is---especially in the case of someone like you, who's practically made a career out of treading the not so fine line between speculation and fact.

-JQP
----------------------

Actually what you have is something that we have seen for quite some time. There are people who crave support from the others who participate on the thread. If they don't have it, they must create it. One method we saw in the past which we no longer mention because the person has corrected their errant ways after being caught. The new method is to put words into other peoples mouths--I think the comment was:

"speculate about his opinions or where he may be coming from. I believe we have a right to critique each others opinions and speculate where necessary as long as we don't libel each other."

By doing so, one creates the aura that others agree with the former's opinions. It bolsters their credibility. They can use the name of another to show acceptance of their opinions even though the other person never said what is being attributed to them.

CIJ –

Most times when someone apologizes, the recipient just says “thanks” and moves on. I said I wasn’t going to bring up your daughter again. If it bothers you so much, why did you bring her up again? But since you brought it up, did I write anything factually incorrect? Or did I just repeat your statements from a previous thread?

Hey, I see you mentioned that I favor a two-tiered pension system?!? That’s the first time in about a year you’ve actually acknowledged that I’m not fighting for the status quo. It took that long to sink in?

If pensions were promised when people were hired, then the pensions should be paid. I don’t care how you try to twist it (and I’m sure you will), but I believe you keep promises you make. In fact, it’s one of the things I tell my kids repeatedly. Your word is your bond. If people can depend on your word and promises, then you’re leading a life worth living.

I’m not here to defend the current pension system (thanks for finally acknowledging that). I’m also not here for some selfish reason, though I doubt you’ll ever believe that.

My personal belief regarding the pension system is that it needs to be tweaked, not abandoned. You’re free to disagree with me, it’s a free country. But your credibility is just so low that I can’t and won’t ever believe a word you write. So please spare me the mega-long post with all your numbers trying to defend your position…I won’t read it.

How it works, CIJ, is you get to have your opinion and I get to have mine. Don’t try to read into the motivation for my opinion; you could never get it right because we’re fundamentally two very different people.

T.B.

P.S. I like the threats against the city council regarding taxes. LOL!!!

CIJ says:
"PS. Please attend the City Council tonight and speak against government waste and high taxation. I will not be there because I may not be able to control myself and throw the podium at the City Council. But I will be watching and observing every word that comes out of their mouths about higher taxes. Any council member that suggests higher taxes will be blasted by ME on this blog site repeatedly as being INSENSITIVE to the NAPERVILLE TAXPAYER."

-------

Wow, that's scary...I bet the council is meeting as we speak to figure out how to handle this threat.

And here confirms my earlier comment about CIJs "do what I say, not what I do" behavior. He's not going to the City Council meeting to address his issues because he may not be able to control himself? Rather, he's not going because he is too lazy to do his own bidding, or doesn't want people to know who s/he/it really is, or is not bold enough to do anything in person, away from the anonymity of her keyboard.

He will be "watching and observing every word that comes out of the council's mouths, to blast them about it repeatedly on this blog site." Because, this has been effective to make CIJs causes go forward to date.

CIJ, are you insane?

Here is a thought about repeating.

It occurred to ME that if people keeping repeating, repeating and repeating that I hate POs and FFs that bloggers may actually begin to believe each other.

Maybe the people defending the unsustainable pension system feel it is INDEFENSIBLE so we must say anyone who wants to reform it hates POs and FFs.

You have, TB, who now has confessed not only that his brother and deceased father(I was sorry to hear this and obviously did not know) benefit/ed from this pension system, but that he and his other brother also work in PUBLIC SERVICE. For all I know this may mean a government job paying a BIG FAT PENSION.

Notice how TB defends the pension system. Not only attacking the MESSENGER but his teenage daughter for once smoking dope. He further implies she is a girl of low moral character by saying she hangs around thieves because she was a victim of a crime(s). If you cell phone was stolen twice it makes you a double victim of crimes. A kid is required to go to school. We send our kids to activities in church or dancing to keep them busy and out of trouble and not to be victims of crime.

Not one person on this BLOG SITE has spoken up about this low ball tactic. This to me shows me the BIAS on this blog site that the Moderator knowingly or unknowingly encourages. Almost all of his remarks are directed against ME unfortunately.

And I was not debating TB or discussing anything with TB let alone attacking him. I was simply attacking the CORRUPT PENSION system which he apparently took personally because he now appears to be a recipieent of the CORRUPTION which results in UNAFFORDABLE TAXES be it in Naperville or elsewhere.

He also proved to be a selfish human being by stating, let us NOT cut wages or benefits or pensions of current Public Safety Employees. Let us leave them alone. We made promises to them. No, TB we have contracts with them that are renewable every so often. Nothing in the contract states they have to receieve increases each time we negotiate with them. If the City Council cared about the taxpayers and had some spine, they should force a decrease in wages on them which would also help the pension mess.

"But since my brothers and I are locked in and safe," implies TB go ahead and develop a 2-Tier system where you can charge all the new FFs and POs for our EXCESSES. Screw them as long as my generation gets to sit in rocking chairs at age 52, smoking cigars and rooting for the Bears and Bulls while the civilian population breaks their backs working till 70. I don't care about the taxpayers.

TB likes to yell FIRE on this blog site to scare bloggers. The fact is for every fire in a home in Naperville, there are AT LEAST 100 FORECLOSURES due to many unbearable costs including HIGH TAXATION not only from City Hall but from all forms of Government who are benefiting from the CORRUPT PENSION SYSTEM while families are being bankrupted.

It seems like I am the only one on this blog site that can see the transparency here.

And TB went on and called me a SOB and a FOOL. Of course, if I said such words, I doubt my post would make it.

The Moderator has really favored you folks because you are the MAJORITY in my humble opinion.....and despite favoring you folks you still can not defend the CORRUPT PENSION SYSTEM. You are still losing this debate against one blogger who is finally getting some suppport.

Eventually the tone will not remain in your favor. I see new bloggers waking up and agreeing with me.

Check out what this blogger said just this morning...

========================================================================================================================================

By e^(i*pi) on October 20, 2009 5:38 AM
Anonymous wrote

The bigger picture is that the PD/FD/... get pension plans so far beyond what anyone else can expect, and we have to pay extra taxes to make up for market losses. Annoying at the least.

========================================================================================================================================

Apparently this blogger and a recent Anonymous have been reading my posts and agree with me. Anonymous has recently complained I am NOT PESSIMISTIC enough. Sorry, Anonymous, I love what you say, but how much more pessimistic can I be when I said I agree with the Napergate Man that this PENSION SYSTEM will IMPLODE. Implode means it soon will be converted to dust and dirt. If that is not PESSIMISTIC enough for you, I don't know what else I can say.

And BTW I agree with most of what Anonymous is saying about the incompetence of the Federal Government and even mentioned the Congress voted themselves $99,000 raises in their expense accounts while we are telling them are taxes are too high. So it is just not the NPD and NFD but the whole system of government which feeds on each other. If they get a BIG FAT PENSION, why can't we get a BIGGER and FATTER BIG FAT PENSION. When will this NONSENSE come to an end???

This is how these FIRE UNIONS negotiate. They got it, we want it. I say the next time the UNION uses this ploy, give every FD employee his walking papers. Show them that we can live without them for a month.

We can put out our own fires out for a month just like we did in the old days when we did not have fire alarms, smoke detectors and sprinkler systems to assist us. We can put our injured in the back seat of a car or pick-up truck and drive them to the Edward's Emergency room or call Superior, a private emergency ambulance service. Of course, we won't do as well as they do, but we can show them this service of theirs is INFLATED at $35 million annually once the 10th Fire Station is up and functional. This service is $700 dollars a resident per year. Many of us only call an ambulance once in a life time. We can call Superior and pay them $900 dollars for the one call and avoid paying $35,000 dollars per resident for 50 years which seems ridiculously high to me for once in a life time service if that.

And if we have good insurance companies, they will buy us brand new homes and maybe even pay Superior Ambulatory Services for the $900 trip to Edward's Hospital. Please, $700 per resident per year on our REAL ESTATE TAX BILL just for the Fire Department is too much. Please show some compassion, City Hall.

Trust me, they will come back to the negotiating table and take the 10% cuts I am requesting and never be unreasonable again. The UNIONS must be put in their place. They have destroyed the private sector by imposing demands so high, that most US companies are manufacturing almost everything in China and Mexico where they don't have to deal with unions wanting 50 dollars an hour, full benefits for life and 95% pension as existed in the auto industry before bankruptcy a few months ago at both GM and Chrysler. After 100 years the GM stock symbol does not exist and it was thrown off the Dow Jones. If you are a Pension Fund that owned GM, your losses are PERMANENT. Bye-bye!

Who ever thought GM would file for bankruptcy? They did! Why would anyone think that the City of Naperville is immune from bankruptcy in the form of Chapter 9??? We are not immune and we will be one day in bankrupcty if we don't teach all our City Employees that asking for raises that make Big Fat Pensions Bigger and Fatter in recessions is UNACCEPTABLE. It is INTOLERABLE. It is UNCONSIONABLE. It is RUTHLESS!!!!

Smell the coffee, City Employees before you make yourselves BIG FAT HOGS and GET SLAUGHTERED. There is no reason to be nice to anyone who is ignorant enough to ask the struggling taxpayers for a raise in a RECESSION. For anyone ignorant enough to want to increase the FORECLOSURES in town. For anyone who wants to see families bankrupted and homeless.

And just like I said earlier, the chance of a foreclosure leaving you homeless is 100 times greater than a fire. So please stop yelling fire in the movie theater, TB. That borders on felonious behavior and you could be charged with a crime if you keep doing that.( a litte sarcastic humor...lol). Please stop yelling FIRE all the time and show me you can defend the corrupt pension system. Show me why you should be allowed to retire at 52 with a Big Fat Pension while your civilian counterpars has to work his behind off till age 70 to get a retirement one fifth the size of yours if he or she is lucky.

Thank you,

CIJ

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

PS. Please attend the City Council tonight and speak against government waste and high taxation. I will not be there because I may not be able to control myself and throw the podium at the City Council. But I will be watching and observing every word that comes out of their mouths about higher taxes. Any council member that suggests higher taxes will be blasted by ME on this blog site repeatedly as being INSENSITIVE to the NAPERVILLE TAXPAYER. So watch out my dear council members. Most of my subdivision is now reading this blog site as I have told them about it. They may not write but they read. So you guys are not the only ones reading it. Trust me! And you will be voted out of office if you ask for a penny of increases in taxes....and Furstenau is no exception. And you to CM Doug Krause. I am tired of your double talk that I have to listen to weekly. You talk the talk on the pavements of Naperville, but when you are seated in your Council Seat you can not walk the walk and seem to be intimidated by the ESTABLISHMENT. Stop being obsessesd with a car possibly running over HOMELESS STRIKER Mr. Huber and let us hear what you are going to do to reduce taxes.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I am not making fun of the person making the typo, I am laughing at the typo.

CIJ Wrote:

The law wrongfully and unconsciously holds us liable for the $20.5 million the Managers of these P and F Pension Funds lost in the stock market in the last year.

Quick, get me the ether-soaked rag! I gotta go collect taxes.

-1 -- who until this am thought the word was replentish

for those not around during the D203 discussions earlier this year "-1" is e^(i*pi) when typing quickly and doing a worse job than usual of editing.

CIJ wrote,

My point went over your head. I was being sarcastic because Experienced does not want me to speculate about his opinions or where he may be coming from. I believe we have a right to critique each others opinions and speculate where necessary as long as we don't libel each other.

Actually, it was Experienced's post that seemed to go over your head. There is a huge difference between critiquing someone's opinion and speculating about what that opinion is---especially in the case of someone like you, who's practically made a career out of treading the not so fine line between speculation and fact.

-JQP

CIJ –

At not time did I intend to attack or libel your daughter as you claim. I merely stated the facts as you had presented them in the past, namely 1) she smoked pot 2) she wanted to travel to CA to get more (to which you seemed sort of agreeable) and 3) you stated something to the affect that something went missing almost every time her friends were over. Isn’t this what you’d previously posted on another thread? How many cell phones did she lose? One? I thought you previously said it was three?

Now, will an apology suffice for this alleged transgression? If so, then I’m sorry for bringing up the subject of your daughter; however, I specifically deny your accusations of libel since I was merely repeating the facts as you had previously written.

You also asked everyone not to speculate about your opinion or reasons to cut every department, including the NPD and NFD. Really? Then why not stop speculating on my motives for not cutting these departments unless absolutely necessary? Why not just accept the fact that maybe some people value safety more than you do, and that it’s a valid opinion to have?

The problem with your motives, CIJ, is that your past posts regarding the NPD and NFD cannot be ignored. You were quite insulting to the NPD (not just one officer regarding one incident) and you have stated numerous times that firefighters get paid to sleep (among other comments). Nobody is distorting your desires to cut wasteful spending because your contempt for both departments is apparent. I (and others) simply refuse to ignore your own words about these topics. Your past posts will continue to follow you (haunt you?) until you take responsibility for them without trying to minimize what you wrote.

You have a great knack for asking others to behave exactly the opposite as you do. By this, I mean the calls to stop personal attacks even though that’s been your MO for years, your calls to ban anonymous posting even though you used to use several aliases at once (and tried to deny it), and your call to stop speculating as to one’s motives even though you have called for me to be banned from discussing anything related to the NFD because you don’t like my perceived motives. One word comes to mind: hypocrite.

As for the libel issue…did you see the Trib last week? There’s a case in Cook County where someone is suing for the ID of an anonymous poster for this very reason. The case could be precedent-setting, but most experts seem to think the efforts will fail and the courts will protect the anonymous poster. This is emerging case law so there’s no telling how this will be decided, but I’d prefer to see everyone held responsible for their comments, even if they’re made anonymously or under an alias.

T.B.

anonymous on October 19, 2009 10:49 PM
AMEN!

If CIJ would just include actual numbers only, not their best guesses or estimates, and then also leave out any personal opinions and slants and rants, the way a true journalist would, maybe he/she would be taken more seriously by more people also.

Anonymous wrote

...the city council or board of trustees of the municipality shall make every legal effort to replenish the fund so that all beneficiaries may receive the amounts to which they are entitled. If, thereafter, there still remain insufficient funds, the beneficiaries shall be paid pro rata from the available funds, but no allowance or order of the board shall be held to create any liability against the municipality, but only against the pension fund.

and Experienced wrote:

The law clearly says that the city is NOT responsible if the fire and police pension plans can't meet their payments

Again, it is a long road to that point and more lawyers than you can count would be involved making sure "every legal effort" was made to replenish the fund and that appropriate amounts were put into the fund via 40 ILCS 5/3‑125. So I am of the opinion that we are responsible to make sure the fund can make its payments. This is clearly a side discussion which will not advance anyone's argument.

The bigger picture is that the PD/FD/... get pension plans so far beyond what anyone else can expect, and we have to pay extra taxes to make up for market losses. Annoying at the least.

To Experienced: Do you believe that 40 ILCS 5/3‑143 was followed or do you think the city got this information and hid it from us in the initially filed financial report?

e^(i*pi)

By Experienced on October 19, 2009 9:40 PM
Citizen Investigative Journalist on October 19, 2009 6:43 PM
----------------------------------

Who is we? Not the city of Naperville. You and I already had this discussion but you don't listen and you don't comprehend the written words of the statutes. The law clearly says that the city is NOT responsible if the fire and police pension plans can't meet their payments.

========================================================================================================================================

I know you are wrong unless we are bankrupt as a City and simply can not make any payments into their funds. If we are not we must find every legal way possible to replenish what they squandered away in the stock market.

That is why the State is ordering us to make additional payments to eliminate the $96.2 million deficit in the P and F Pension Funds. The state wants this deficit eliminated by 2033.

Since the POs are limited to 9.91% and the FFs are limited to 9.46%(speaking from memory so I could be a fraction off) in contributions, it falls on the backs of the Naperville Taxpayer to fund this huge deficit that gets worse by the year.

Two years ago we paid about 20% in matching contributions. In the last 2 years we increased our contributions by 800k to the police and 500k to the fire fighters and I suspect our percentage contributions are reaching around 25% and will continue increasing. The POs and FFs did not increase their contributions.

I think the law is stating we are responsible unless an ATOMIC BOMB hits Naperville. If no ATOMIC BOMBS hits Naperville the law is stating we must continue increasing our contributions until these Pension Funds are fully funded again. And that all deficits must be wiped out by the City Taxpayers by 2033.

The law wrongfully and unconsciously holds us liable for the $20.5 million the Managers of these P and F Pension Funds lost in the stock market in the last year.

So even though you are a Forensic Accountant and I am a layman pretending to be an Investigative Reporter, I honestly believe Experienced you simply don't get it and can not comprehend the complexity of the situation.

CIJ

By anonymous on October 19, 2009 10:49 PM
-----------------
How are you trying to balance the budget, CIJ?...
You bulldoze your way into every crevice of this blog. Work the cause that will create the change you would like to see. Or maybe you will surprise us all and find that spending your time doing instead of blogging will make you a happier guy.
Are you insane, CIJ?

########################################################################################################################################

No, I am not insane. If I am insane then every INVESTIGATIVE JOURNLIST is insane. Do you read the Chicago Sun-Times? Their investigative reporters have been ripping the City and State in an attempt to expose and break them for quite a long time. It sounds like they are repeating themselves but they really are not if you are paying attention to details. They have been relentless. Are they insane? Are they succeeding? I do believe they are waking up a lot of people who will one day protest.

I don't bulldoze my way into every crevice of this blog. I only usually blog on 2 of 10 Threads on the Main Page and people do "enjoy or hate" debating me. But nevertheless, they come to debate.

The Moderator provided OPEN TOPIC II for those who don't want to deal with my issues or causes or myself or taxes or pensions. It seems people would rather be here with me than ignoring me on OPEN TOPIC II. I have not blogged once there and do not intend to do so, in order that people who think I am a nuisance can have their Heaven....for some reason they don't want their Heaven. They like Hell better. Go figure! So why complain when you had an option to go to Heaven but voluntarily chose Hell!

And don't worry about my Sanity or Insanity. My first blog today was 643pm. I had a full day of work and fun before I came to blog. When my kids do their homework in the evening, I choose to blog instead of watch TV. The house is much quieter for them to concentrate without a TV.

When they go to sleep, I go to the health club for an hour or hour and a half and come back.

So I have a good life. I enjoy blogging. I can type and think extremely fast and can put out in a week what Editor Tim West may put out in a year. Maybe, I will apply for his job when he retires and no one at the Naperville Sun will hopefully know I am CIJ while I am applying. I will try to change my writing style in case Moderator Magee is on the panel. But since no one in the Sun reads this blog site, I should have no worries when I apply for Tim's job when he retires since no one will recognize my style of writing until I am already hired. (Just kidding around here for those like JQP who don't know when I am being sarcastic.)

When a new set of financial numbers comes out, I discuss them. For those who do not know that these numbers change from time to time, I can see why they think I have simply been repeating myself for nearly 3.5 years....lol...

I have a hard time getting through to people who want to debate pensions and do not understand them. Of course I have to explain myself in a different manner each time hoping they will grasp what I am saying.

Like I said so many bloggers think the pension system is a still photo. That is why they simply can not comprehend the entire movie from beginning to end. When I can get through to them, I will try to stop explaining over and over again, something you folks call REPEATING.

Yes, repeating is also frustrating for me. So try reading those 300-700 page reports as I do before coming on here to deabte me.

Can I have a show of hands to see how many actually read the entire reports. Only Experienced! That is what I thought. You folks are just like the City Council. You don't want to do your homework.

I am thankful my kids do their homework every night while I am blogging quietly away.

God Bless You All!

I hope your lives are as joyous as mine. Have a Happy Halloween!

CIJ

By John Q. Public on October 19, 2009 11:13 PM
CIJ wrote:
I am now asking you all to respect me and my opinions and not speculate on my reasons as to why I want the POLICE DEPT. BUDGET cut 10% as I want every dept. in City Hall to also cut 10%.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

JQP,

My point went over your head. I was being sarcastic because Experienced does not want me to speculate about his opinions or where he may be coming from. I believe we have a right to critique each others opinions and speculate where necessary as long as we don't libel each other.

I do disagree with the opinion that the Moderator expressed in regards to Experienced's comments.

There is nothing wrong with disagreeing and debating.

This blog site would be a complete failure if we were not allowed to disagree with each other opinions. No one wants to shoot blanks at a wall.

Threads where there is no debate die quickly. Threads where there is serious debate have 659 hits as that of the HOMELESS STRIKER or 906 as that of the NAPERGATE MAN.

Thank you!

CIJ

Moderator Magee,

I honestly have nothing against police officers or fire fighters. I hardly know any in the City of Naperville and have hardly ever needed either and hopefully won't.

I am against their EXCESS WASTE and their PENSION SYSTEM. The bloggers have attempted to DISTORT it into HATRED.

I had a specific issue with the treatment of the Napergate Man by one specific Sergeant nearly 2 years ago. I had an issue with his behavior and the city policy as to how it exercises Professional Courtesy in a very discriminatory manner. Period! This does not constitute hatred in my opinion. I guess every one who files a lawsuit must be full of hatred. Everyone who complains about anything must be full of hatred. I say NONSENSE and please stop confusing PENSION REFORM with HATRED. You guys are a little too transparent. Not one of you has stepped up to defend the broken pension system. Not one! Instead you have attempted to destroy the MESSENGER instead of MY MESSAGE and obviously you have failled miserably no matter how many people join this INSANE CRUSADE against ME!

If you want me to be a PUPPY DOG instead of an INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST and sing the praises of the PD and FD do you think we could ever get them to change? Of course not, as they are extremely couzy in their current status that is unaffordable and unpalatable to the Naperville Taxpayer.

The police and fire unions are not only asking for raises, they are demanding them. What people have to understand when they ask for raises while our salaries are being cut in a recession, is that they are taking more of our money away from our children and stressing us out financially. Every taxpayers should find this ABHORRENT. And I believe they will once they grasp the CONCEPT!

Why should they be privileged to retire at age 52 with 7k pensions while the rest of the civilian population has to work till age 70 to get a FULL SOCIAL SECURITY RETIREMENT PAY-OUT that is usually only a 1000 or 2000, if you are willing to wait till that very old age. If you want to retire at age 62, they give you roughly half of your Social Security. They don't let you retire at age 52 even if you build homes, pave streets, work in factories, or transport refrigerators. The government does not understand that there are civilian jobs that are much much more physical and stressful than a police officer job or fire fighter job. How many employees building our highways in sub-zero temperatures would trade jobs with a Fire Fighter? How many would trade jobs with a Police Officer so they don't have to be run over by an irratic driver?

These are rules made by the government that we must work and work no matter how physical, stressful or dangerous the job is. We must work even if our backs are giving out. We must work even if we are no longer strong enough due to the fact that we are 68 or 69 unless we settle for half of our RETIREMENT BENEFITS.

But these same government agency officials have a double standard for their employees and themselves. That is what angers me. That is what outrages me. Not a hatred for police or fire fighters. A hatred for government policy that discriminates against civilian employees. A hatred for the entire pension system from DC to Naperville and back to DC.

I hope bloggers can understand where I am coming from and not put words in my mouth that even you seem to be biting on and falling for, Moderator Magee!

Thank you,

CIJ

CIJ wrote:

I am now asking you all to respect me and my opinions and not speculate on my reasons as to why I want the POLICE DEPT. BUDGET cut 10% as I want every dept. in City Hall also cut 10%.

Wow! And does this mean that you, in turn, will stop pretending that your critics are all city employees who are out to defend their "big fat pensions"? Or that T.B.'s opinions are suspect because his brother is a firefighter who is out to receive a pension?

-JQP

CIJ says:

"I am just trying to balance the budget and eliminate the pension deficit without having my taxes increased."
-----------------
How are you trying to balance the budget, CIJ? As far as I can see you are doing absolutely nothing but burning up keyboards. Blogging here is not going to change a thing, this venue does not prompt change without actual action to follow up on anyone's ideas. You are not a follow up kind of guy, as far as I can tell. You are a hot air balloon, once your air is gone you have nothing left to contribute, until you have another load of hot air. You seem to be commanding people to do your bidding, rather than leading real work to get change that you see fit done. People that make a difference live in the real world and work on their causes in the real world. This blog is not the real world, and I expect that you don't have much time outside of your blogging here to do real world activities that would further the change you say you desire.

Do you believe Albert Einstein was intelligent, more intelligent than you or I? Perhaps you forget his words:

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

How long have you been on here trying to change or fix Naperville? How many good results have come from your comments here? You keep doing the same thing thinking that the 10 or so bloggers here effect change by reading what you write? What you write is much too painful to read, thereby serving only to garner disdain and contempt against your commands that others carry out your actions. People love to help people that are also willing to jump in and do real world work to further a cause. People love to hate people that want them to do what they say, but not what they do.

From what I read, you have many people here that really, really dislike you. It seems that most bloggers are trying to read and comment here around your nonsense. You bulldoze your way into every crevice of this blog. I will admit that the angst you cause keep many coming back, but not in a good way. Not in a way to further change, but simply in a way to argue with you. Think you have some good ideas? Then, why not take up the advice of others, start the petitions to end home rule, or to implement any of your other desires. Work the cause that will create the change you would like to see. If and when you lead the way to achieve this, we will probably see how dissatisfied Naperville will be for you once you achieve some of your goals, as I just don't think you are a satisfied man. Or maybe you will surprise us all and find that spending your time doing instead of blogging will make you a happier guy.

Are you insane, CIJ?

-1

Sec. 3‑142. Payment of benefits ‑ funds insufficient. Any police officer and any eligible surviving spouse, child or children, or dependent parent of the officer to whom the board has ordered benefits to be paid, shall receive a yearly benefit payable in 12 equal monthly installments, which shall be the aggregate amount to which they are entitled.
If at any time there is not sufficient money in the fund to pay the benefits under this Article the city council or board of trustees of the municipality shall make every legal effort to replenish the fund so that all beneficiaries may receive the amounts to which they are entitled. If, thereafter, there still remain insufficient funds, the beneficiaries shall be paid pro rata from the available funds, but no allowance or order of the board shall be held to create any liability against the municipality, but only against the pension fund.

By Experienced on October 19, 2009 9:40 PM

The law clearly says that the city is NOT responsible if the fire and police pension plans can't meet their payments.

_____________________________

Maybe I am missing something.

(40 ILCS 5/3‑125) (from Ch. 108 1/2, par. 3‑125)
Sec. 3‑125. Financing. The city council or the board of trustees of the municipality shall annually levy a tax.... The annual requirements to be provided by such tax levy are equal to (1) the normal cost of the pension fund for the year involved, plus (2) the amount necessary to amortize the fund's unfunded accrued liabilities as provided in Section 3‑127.

It seems as if the pension fund cannot meet its obligations, then there is, by default, an unfunded accrued liability which must be paid...by a tax levy...by the city. The fact is that it is exceeding unlikely that there would be no money in the fund, since there is always a pool of actively employed police officers paying in.

I would not be surprised if I am missing something major, but the language seems clear.

-1

By Chris Magee, moderator on October 19, 2009 8:00 PM
CIJ, this blog site is not a democracy. If someone asks you to respect their opinions, why not just do it instead of telling them why you don't have to. Play nice with others. If you'd try harder to do that, there'd be a lot less bitterness and fighting on this site.

========================================================================================================================================

All Bloggers,

I am now asking you all to respect me and my opinions and not speculate on my reasons as to why I want the POLICE DEPT. BUDGET cut 10% as I want every dept. in City Hall also cut 10%.

According to what the Moderator is saying since I have stated repeatedly that I do not hate any police officers, please don't speculate and insinuate I want this dept. chopped 10% because I hate police officers. That is nonsense and I am tired of your speculation. Please respect the Moderator's words and don't speculate on my opinions anymore. Don't speculate on my thought process anymore. I won't even ask you to play nice with me. This Blog Site is not a democracy so please stop your nonsensical speculations on my opinons.

I dislike wasteful spending in all departments including the Fire Departement and Building Dept. I never met anyone in the FD so do you suppose I hate FFs I never met also.

I am just trying to balance the budget and eliminate the pension deficit without having my taxes increased. Just like the POs, FFs, and Building Inspectors, I have expenses. I am not going to let them "steal" my money, retire at 52 in rocking chairs with cigars and with Big Fat Pensions, while my kids and I spend the rest of our lives supporting them. It won't happen if I have a say in the matter.

CIJ

Citizen Investigative Journalist on October 19, 2009 6:43 PM

It is undisputed that if we BANKRUPTED/CLOSED/ENDED/COLLAPSED the pension system of Naperville today, we would owe our Firefighters, Police Officers and City Employees $126.2 million dollars which we don't have. This is the PRESENT VALUE of what we owe them in future payments. I presume the FUTURE VALUE is many times that number.

----------------------------------

Who is we? Not the city of Naperville. You and I already had this discussion but you don't listen and you don't comprehend the written words of the statutes. The law clearly says that the city is NOT responsible if the fire and police pension plans can't meet their payments. Further, I have and continue to disagree that the City is ultimately responsible for any shortcoming in the IMRF fund. The statue says that it's only responsibility under the law is to deposit the amount that the IMRF says to deposit on a yearly basis. Which the city has done in each and every year. If there is a shortcoming it's the funds that owe and not the city. One of the benefits of participating in a statewide fund rather than a local fund.

Finally, what do you think the word bankrupt means? Should ANY city file a petition in bankruptcy, it is protected from it's past liabilities--including the pension fund. That's what bankruptcy is.

By Anonymous on October 19, 2009 8:24 PM

Are any of the posters talking about pensions aware that PD and FF don't pay into Social Security?
______________

Not exactly a news flash.

Are you aware of the tax implications of these pension plans versus that for social security?

Are you aware of the massive difference in retirement benefits of these pension plans compared to Social Security?

Are you suggesting we get into a discussion of the benefits received by the PD/FD/TRS from a (approx) 10% pre-tax deduction versus the benefits seen by the masses from a 6.2% post-tax deduction for Social Security. gack!!

-1

Are any of the posters talking about pensions aware that PD and FF don't pay into Social Security?

If people do not "play nice" why not create a thread/topic place for them with their name & then people do not have to go to it if they do not want to play with these people. They can just say all they want and only those who want to listen/read will go there.

ILCS Police Pension (40 ILCS 5/3‑109.3) mentions that municipalities must offer a Self-managed plan. In this plan, each employee must put in 10% of salary and each employer (city) must match that 10%. The employee can put more in if they wish.

So police officers can get a 100% match of 10% of their salary in a 401(k) type plan (414(h) actually). All of the risk is then taken by the employee by choosing which investment vehicle (s)he wants.

But nobody does this because it is not nearly as generous as the actual pension plan, which means that the city must be matching more than 10% of the salary.

I guess that gives the reader an idea of what the regular pension plan for the PD is like when a 401(k)-type plan with 20% put away each year in that employee's name is NOT the plan chosen.

(ahem) Zowie!

The city cannot change the state law. The city (and other cities) can adjust future pay scales to recognize that this huge liability will collapse.

e^(i*pi)

By Experienced on October 19, 2009 3:52 AM
---------------------------------------

I, like Chris, have asked you not to presume what my opinions are. I think some of us are doers, and some of us are just talkers. Some of us when we have an issue will actually do something to rectify the problem. Some of us will just write long tomes about it and not get anything accomplished.

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1. No need to cock an attitude when someone gives you a complement and speaks highly of you.

You have no clue what I do in real life since I am anonymous and wish to remain anonymous. So hold your criticism of the unknown.

The Moderator has a right to ASK that I not presume what his opinions are. He ASKED and I am heeding his REQUEST. He will be a much more successful Moderator by remaining neutral and unbiased. I believe he is succeeding immensely in his role as Moderator and has the respect of both parties to any issue debated on this BLOG SITE.

But you are not the Moderator and have no right to ask anyone NOT to presume what your opinions may or may not be. This is a forum in which we deabte and discuss anything we choose as long as we don't libel. I did not libel you so please don't in anyway attempt to tell me what I can say and what I can not say. I thought you read the Constitution and understood we live in America where every citizen can exercise his First Amendment right in any way he pleases short of libel and slander.

While your role in society as a Forensic Accountant is very important, my role as a Citizen Investigative Journalist is also very important. Someone needs to wake the masses up from their apathy and until that happens, you will have rallies that few will attend. Waking people up is a very long and grueling process. That is what I am doing, Experienced, and you fully understand the necessity of what I am doing. It is the required foundation of a GRASS ROOTS MOVEMENT.

The Napergate Man took years to wake residents up and educate them. Once he succeeded, he could call for a rally on Hobson and Naper and 400 would attend not counting screaming children, squeeking strollers, flying balloons and honking cars. He had local media and Chicago Media in attendance at rallies he organized. He was able to fill City Hall up when he made his calling...but not until he spent years and paid SUBSTANTIAL monies through his Napergate ads waking people up and establishing his credibility and reputation. Yes, he was able to collect 3500 signatures twice but that was after he developed an ARMY of SUPPORTERS. Not when he first started.

I feel I am involved in a similar process on a smaller scale. Yes, this blog site obviously does not have 1/100th or even 1/1000 the influence of the Napergate Ads but who knows one day it just might have a TENTH of the INFLUENCE. Everything is possible! Maybe I am helping build it in some way as I was one of the early contributors.
While he was willing to spend large fortunes waking up the residents, I am not willing to spend large fortunes waking people that should have their own ALARM CLOCKS built into their BRAINS. My feeling is they will eventually wake up and I just have to be patient. Every CLOCK eventually hits the midnight hour!

I commend you for your work to put a group together and hold City Council accountable for their poor transparency which is not new to me. As you know I read the entire history of the Napergate Man at the Nichols Library and one thing that stuck out like a SORE THUMB was their lack of transparency which you are working on 15 years after the Napergate Man opened that cans of worms. It is nice to see people continue his work in this manner. They spent millions of dollars in legal fees fighting him for 10 years and could not account for the COST of the LEGAL BATTLES. Editor Tim West tried to stand up to them about the lack of transparency and they blew on him like he was a candle on a birthday cake and put him out in the first blow. I hope you have more fight in you than Mr. West. I suspect you do. While you are at it, bring the Napergate Costs up so they don't tell you this pension mess was an aberration. Show them they have a long pattern of abuse. This is a tip you should be thankful for as you may have no clue about the Napergate Era and what happened in those days as you appear to be a young man testing the waters for the first time, but doing well I must add. Many Council Members and City Officials today continue to serve from that ERA if you can believe that! We have no term limits in this town which allows probable CORRUPTION and IMPROPRIETIES to continue unabated in City Hall.

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You can call me a talker all you want. But someone has to read these huge finaNcial statments and interpret them in layman's language for the masses. You can call me a talker all you want but someone has to go out and observe 14 police officers sitting as potted plants in a jury box collecting OT. You can call me a talker all you want but someone has to go to downtown and observe 17 police officers on one intersection checking out the girls in mini-skirts while gas stations a few miles south are being robbed because officers left their beats for whatever reason. If they were in their beat there is no way a robber can have the confidence to rob one station and proceed 4 blocks north and rob a second station and get away with both robberies without being caught. In my humble opinion, he studied the patterns of the NPD and realized they leave their beats late in the evening and head downtown in large numbers.

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While you may think I don't make a difference, since I reported this on this BLOG SITE there have never been 17 police officers on that one intersersection checking the girls out in mini-skirts, high heels ands short mid-driffs. Most probably, Chief David Dial is not willing to check on his cops as he loves his corner Plush Office in his Taj Mahal Castle so someone has to. He is so stuck in his ways and his head is literaly implanted upside down in concrete, I expect the resource school bike cops to return to the downtown next summer instead of relieving officers who are accumulating untold of OT. THE MAN HATES CHANGE. THE MAN IS UNWILLING TO ADJUCT TO RECESSIONAY TIMES. HE THINKS THE EARTH DOES NOT SPIN!

Chief Dial is not willing to eliminate his 3 million in OT by looking for some excess fat, so someone has to look for the excess fat and report it. Chief Dial is not willing to demand that private charity events like the PigFest and Last Fling provide their own private security instead of using our cops at OT rates, therefore someone has to demand it and unfortunately or fortunately, whichever it may be, I have taken on this role of Investigative Journalist to rally support for my demands and those who are FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE in this town. The wimpish City Council demanded he reduce 5% instead of 100% of his OT while they were shaking and rattling in fear. Instead of saying I will do my best, he whined about having to give up any OT. I happen to be at that City Council Meeting in person.

Do your thing Experienced and God Bless You! Don't accuse others of not doing their role or fair share in this just and honorable battle against City Hall. I am very involved in the next April 15 Tax Protest behind the scenes and the organizers have set a goal of 1000 and we are working hard to accomplish that goal. Call that talk if you want to, but our group delivered 400 protestors last April 15 and I was ONE OF THEM. Before you talk the talk, let us see if you and your group can match our 400 and walk the walk. Talk is cheap, Experienced! I think positive of your efforts, why do you think negative of my efforts? Do you expect me to fix this town by myself? Do you really expect me to knock on 5900 doors by myself to get 5900 signatures. We first have to develop a popular grass movement through education similar to the Napergate Movement which was extremely effective in exposing City Hall and sometimes in changing its ways. Are you going to tell me most folks in this town are not in COMAS and CLUELESS as to how our government officials are wasting their hard earned dollars?

In summary don't underestimate the power of journalism in keeping tabs on government. Investigative Journalists of the Sun-Times have been ripping into the pension system of both the State and Chicago relentlessly for nearly a year. They know what they are doing. They are waking up the residents for the day of reckoning. When I talk to residents now almost anywhere they CUSS on the Pension System relentlessly. My only wish is that the Naperville Sun do what its mother has done in Chicago. I am trying to influence them with my writing and I am opitmistic I will succeed at some point. Eventually, they will understand that if the best a blogger can do to refute my message is attack my teenage daughter my MESSAGE MUST have MERIT.

It is just a matter of time before it all implodes, Experienced. With or without your help it will IMPLODE. Keep in mind I am only one person with a spouse, 4 kids, a dog, a kitten and a couple of jobs. So I have limited time and can not do everything for the residents in Naperville. They have a duty and responsibility to participate. Just like you can not do everything but whine about what others don't do instead of complementing them for what they do. Could this be a result of the same low self esteem T.B. and Anonymous One seem to also posses that you need to put down those who COMPLEMENT YOU. I really see a sickness of sorts here. I guess this disease appears to be very contagious just like the H1N1 flue virus.

Collecting 5900 petitions is more for an organization like the Naperville Homeowners Confederation to do. I can only present the suggestion and recommendation. When they wake up, I am sure they will ask their subdivision membership to do it and they have the networking, e-mail addresses, and manpower to do it.

The threshold of pain may have not been reached by most Napervillians. Many are too busy working to pay their real estate taxes, they have no time to protest. But trust me it will IMPLODE just like the former Woodridge Pension Fund Manager said it would. Mark his words if you don't want to mark the Napergate Man's words. He was an insider with knowledge!

It is undisputed that if we BANKRUPTED/CLOSED/ENDED/COLLAPSED the pension system of Naperville today, we would owe our Firefighters, Police Officers and City Employees $126.2 million dollars which we don't have. This is the PRESENT VALUE of what we owe them in future payments. I presume the FUTURE VALUE is many times that number.

I am sorry that many bloggers can not comprehend how bad the situation is. But they will. Just like they could not comprehend what the Napergate Man was telling them until the Judges said he was RIGHT, someday someone with an INTELLECTUAL BRAIN with AUTHORITY will come on here one day and say what Citizen Investigative Journalist has been telling you folks is right on the MONEY. Too bad you did not believe the NGM when you had a chance to save the PENSION SYSTEM. It is now too far gone to save. The city should BANKRUPT through Chapter 9 and get out of its liabilities and debts and teach the greedy unions a lesson never to be forgotten. PIGS GET FAT AND HOGS GET SLAUGHTERED. You have no other option unless you think you can raise the TITANIC back up from the depths of the cold and icy ocean.

Thank you!

CIG

CIJ you are not pessimistic enough

This is a both sides of the coin article, the upside guy feels the stock market says we are out of the woods.

Personally, I would pay of the credit card, buy a new car if I really need one, and re-roof the existing house if it needs it.

If I still had some money left over, I would leave it in a safe place in case the NY banks talk my company into exporting my job to China to temporarily boost profits, for the Investment banks at least.

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WSJ
Eighty Years After the Great Crash -- 'Is It the '30s Again?'
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125581121032292239.html?mod=rss_whats_news_us

....................These ominous signs should hardly surprise us. Despite the cheerleading in Washington and on Wall Street, we have barely begun to address the fundamental problems that led to the crisis in the first place.

Americans (along with many other Westerners) are hocked up to the eyeballs. When compared with the size of the economy, U.S. debt levels are off the charts.

That's true for government, corporations and ordinary families. Thirty years ago, the average U.S. household had debts equivalent to about 32 weeks' income. Today it's 59 weeks.

That's why comparisons with previous recessions ring so hollow. The U.S. came out of the slumps in the early 1980s and early 1990s with much stronger balance sheets. Households and corporations had much greater ability to borrow and spend.

The last time the economy tried to climb out of a deep slump while already this deeply in debt was...the 1930s.

There are further concerns. Regardless of what you make of it politically, the fact remains that middle-class incomes have barely kept up with inflation for three decades.

The economy has been hollowed out: More and more jobs have moved overseas, and over the past two generations it has taken more and more debt to keep the economy growing.

And today real unemployment is at historic levels. The headline jobless figure tells only part of the story. When you add in the millions working part time because they can't find a full-time job, and those who have simply given up looking, the unemployed and underemployed account for one in six workers......................

CIJ you are not pessimistic enough.

Why is the stock market going up?

The FED prints money and floods the Banks with it charging the banks ZERO percent interest, especially the really big, really well connected bankrupt mega banks that funnel a lot of money to our elected officials in DC.

The mega banks then take the money and don't lend it, they invest it in the stock and commodities markets where they have made good profits on the current speculative stock bubble with 140-1 PE ratios where 30-1 was consider high before.

The Banks then take their money and profits and lend it to the FED at 3.5% interest rates that our children have to pay back if they are able to find a job after the graduate.

Since the FED is loaning money to the banks at zero interest, the banks only want to pay .05% interest on CDs and less on savings, why pay when you can get the money for free.

So far individuals have been smart enough to stay out of the current bubble stock market and not buy the stocks that the pension plans are looking to dump and put their money into something else, probably not denominated in dollars.

Private savings would get vaporized, and union and government pension funds get a bail out, WOW.

CIJ,

You are not pessimistic enough, unless drastic action is taken to reduce Federal spending we are headed for hyper-inflation. Drastic spending cuts aren't coming from DC any time soon. The oil producing countries and everyone else really are talking about not accepting dollars for payment in the very near future.

Excerpt from Shadow Government Statistics; American Business Analytics & Research update, well worth the subscription fees to get the uncooked Government numbers. Job losses unreported by 824,000 in Q1, 2009.

Naperville really does need to begin contingency planning for keeping the lights on if hyper inflation kicks in. This is more likely with every dollar they print in DC, Bernanke at the FED has again cranked the printing press back on full speed.

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.....................GAAP-Based Federal Deficit Likely Hit $8.8 Trillion in 2009. Based on an estimate by the Congressional Budget Office (CBO), the official federal deficit rose to roughly $1.41 trillion in 2009 (fiscal year-end September 30, 2009), up from $455 billion in 2008. Accounting gimmicks, introduced mid-fiscal year, knocked off roughly $500 billion of additional 2009 deficit reporting tied to the government’s economic stimulus package.

Gross federal debt in 2009 rose by $1.9 trillion to $11.9 trillion, having risen by $1 trillion in 2008.

I estimate that GAAP-based accounting (generally accepted accounting principles), including annual changes in the net present value of unfunded liabilities (such as in Social Security and Medicare) will show an actual 2009 deficit of about $8.8 trillion, up from $5.1 trillion in 2008, with total federal obligations, including debt and net present value of unfunded liabilities at roughly $75 trillion. Such is more than five times the level of U.S. GDP. Taxes cannot be raised enough to balance spending. One-hundred percent taxation still would leave the U.S. fiscal condition in deficit..............

Citizen Investigative Journalist on October 18, 2009 11:32 PM

When you are trying to educate bloggers with Kindergarten Knowledge and they don't get it, you need to repeat and repeat yourself in hopes they will eventually learn and get it.

__________________________

Ah, CIJ. Keep repeating the same thing over and over again hoping for a different result? Sounds like another definition to me.

from CIJ, Even CM Bob has retreated into hibernation for fear of having to answer any more questions that would expose City Hall.

Maybe councilman Bob is expanding his Huber policy and leaving the possibly mentally unstable alone.

By Citizen Investigative Journalist on October 18, 2009 11:32 PM

At least Forensic Accountant Experienced has been up to the task and filled in for him superbly. I really believe F.A. Experienced comprehends the entire pension situation but is holding back his powerful ammunition for now for reasons unbeknownst to ME.

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I, like Chris, have asked you not to presume what my opinions are.

I think some of us are doers, and some of us are just talkers. Some of us when we have an issue will actually do something to rectify the problem. Some of us will just write long tomes about it and not get anything accomplished.

When I have an issue, I try to actually solve it. I take the bull by the horn. I get the research done. Then I work to get the problem solved. I went and personally got the background info. Now I am actively putting together a group to make the city understand what transparency in government means.

Some of us just talk. For examle, they say "we need to revoke home rule", but when given the tools to do so they back off because the task is too daunting for them. It took me a good 30 minutes to research that issue for you. [Yeah it was me. Who'd you think would come up with that stuff.] Even got you the wording from the Downers Grove referendum. You had supporters for your idea. What have you done with it? And, that was just the most recent example.

I am working on MY issues. I have little or no time to address yours. When I have something to which I want to contribute, I will do so.

By Anonymous on October 18, 2009 6:19 PM
Please, will someone tell CIJ that repeating and repeating....., DOES NOT MAKE YOU RIGHT
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Anonymous,

When you are trying to educate bloggers with Kindergarten Knowledge and they don't get it, you need to repeat and repeat yourself in hopes they will eventually learn and get it. You have to do your best to get them in FIRST GRADE.

What I am finding out is that most bloggers here don't seem to understand the difference between a still photo and a motion picture except for maybe the Moderator, OJ, Experienced and a handful of others. So I have my work cut out for me as a Kindergarten Teacher.

A lot of bloggers have no clue what I am talking about so they begin attacking my teenage kid for having her cell phone stolen and claim she hangs around thieves. If this is not a SICK attempt to attack a MESSENGER instead of her/his MESSAGE I don't know what is.

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Others who know I am right, want to suddenly understand why I called Sgt. Greg Bell's behavior prickable and despicable 2 years ago when he arrested the Napergate Man in 2007 because his teenage daughter ran a 40 cent toll(s) in 2001 without his knowledge.....can anyone imagine changing the subject in this manner because I literally have City Officials cornered and they can not get out of my chokehold regarding their FISCAL IRRESPONSIBILITY.

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Read and study what I am writing and you will understand and improve your knowledge. Don't let it go from one ear to another. I have given you conservative facts. My numbers come from city financial reports that are between 300-700 pages long that I actually read before I write....unlike most of our City Council Members. If they read their packets, they would have a clue what has brought us a $126.2 million AAPL/Deficit and possibly prevented it. Even CM Bob has retreated into hibernation for fear of having to answer any more questions that would expose City Hall. Or maybe city officials stopped providing him with incriminating answers without requiring him to file an FOIA Request! Who knows for sure? Let us hope he returns one day. At least Forensic Accountant Experienced has been up to the task and filled in for him superbly. I really believe F.A. Experienced comprehends the entire pension situation but is holding back his powerful ammunition for now for reasons unbeknownst to ME.

What I really see happening is a bunch of City Officials blogging here that know I am right and want to change the subject. A bunch of City Officials who can't let go of their FISCAL IRRESPONSIBILITY(thanks to the bloggger who taught me these words were preferable to DRUNKEN SAILORS) because it puts Big Bucks in their pockets at the expense of the taxpapyers who are foreclosing on their homes now at a 5% greater clip than just this summer. Imagine that and then imagine City Officials want to raise taxes and put the screws to these poor people and give them NO HOPE!

In the end what makes me right is not the repeating but the facts, data, calculations, and the truth!

Thank you!

CIJ

PS. Many thanks to the blogger who taught me how to bold words instead of full paragraphs.

"...because I do have a life besides this..."

You mean there are other things to do in life besides this?? NO WAY!

By Anonymous on October 18, 2009 1:22 AM
How can we beleive any of CIJ numbers when he OVERSTATES the annual salary of the FIREFIGHTERS that work for NFD. CIJ STATED "Now if a PO or FF starts his pension at 90k which is 75% of his final salary of 120k." on October 17, 2009 8:04 PM

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You and many other remind me of people with heads stuck in concrete....I was way to generous when I stated your heads were stuck in the sand in earlier posts.

This pension system and the projections we are making to come up with PRESENT VALUE ACTUARIAL PENSION LIABILITY DEFICIT(S) are based on the future and not the present. A pension system is like a rolling video....not a STILL PICTURE....it is MOVING!

City Officials and their Auditors allow for 6% raises of which 3% is allocated for inflation when making their computational estimates. After 30 years a FF or PO will be making much more than the cap. The cap is not a STATIONARY NUMBER and increases each year or every few years. My calculations to obtain a 120k final salary limited raises to only 2.4% instead of 6% with an assumption that TAX PROTESTS at City Hall each April 15 will knock some sense into City Officials and hopefully limit these raises.

It appears the 1st Tax Protest at City Hall with 400 residents did not knock any sense in our City Officials. We are trying to bring in 1000 protesters next year to see if we can wake up City Officials out of their deep comas. They thought stationing snipers on City Hall will frighten us into not having one next year. How shameful that City Officials would station snipers against peaceful protesting Naperville Residents.

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Is this how they want to protect their Establishment Fiefdom? Why don't they try to work with the residents instead of using barrels of rifles as an answer to peaceful protesting? How shameful and disgusting of those responsible for stationing snipers at taxpayer expense probably earning OT against a clearly peaceful protest. Not one pebble was thrown at anyone!

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My numbers are very conservative. It is a fact that a PO or FF starts at around 60k. While the cap may be 78k as you say now, it will not be 78k when POs and FFs retire in 30 years or 2039. And most do get promotions of some sort or another in 30 years. There are a lot of Sergeants in the police dept. besides Lieutenants and Captains. Any raises or promotions bring you to HIGHER and constantly ESCALATING CAPs.

Unless, all POs and FFs are limited to 1% raises (including cost of living and inflation increases), the 78k current cap is not logical or sustainable. What are the odds of that based on history, based on the strength of the unions, and based on our City Officals and/or Auditors/Actuaries planning 6% annual increases(3%inflation) for them which is writen in the 2009 Financial Report.

As I said you need to work on getting your head out of the concrete. It appears so many heads in this town are stuck in concrete. If they were not we would not have a $126.2 million Accrured Actuarial Pension Liability Deficit that is increasing annually instead of decreasing as we march to the 2033 deadline to eliminate the deficit imposed on us by the State of Illinos. They asked OUR CITY OFFICIALS AND COUNCIL to march forward and they marched backwards. Even Kindergarten Children can march in the right direction if you guide them. Historians have documented that repeatedly (just a little humor, Moderator Magee...lol)

Bloggers would like to believe this is all a fluke based on the Financial Tsumani of the last year. But if you observe the numbers I posted in my previous post (By Citizen Investigative Journalist on October 18, 2009 12:06 AM), you will see we were increasing our AAPLD IMRF even during the stock market boom years from the end of 2002 till almost the end of 2008. This should have been a strong hint to City Officials that the situation could get disastrous if the stock market collapses as it did. That the situation could IMPLODE one day as it is ready to.

It just amazes me how much foresight City Officials and those who support them have. The Napergate Man laid this scenario down for them in his Napergate ads in the mid nineties and they must have thought he was a wacko. He is the same man that took them to the cleaners in courtroom after courtroom. It really blows my mind that highly educated, highly specialized City Officials, the legal department and outside Auditors, CPAs, Actuaries can't figure out what a Mom and Pop liquor store owner told them a decade and a half ago.

Could they all be that unintelligent? Or do they know what is going on and are in UTTER DENIAL? Or do they know what is going and don't care? Or do they only care about now and do not care about our Children and Grandchildren who will have to pay an unbearable price for the FISCAL IRRESPONSIBILITY taking place right now and every day in City Hall? Is it not enough that our kids have to worry about the Chinese debt to the USA that is now costing $500 milion in interest PER MONTH? Please have some mercy on those who will follow us on this earth after we all move on. Make their life livable and not just existable. Give them hope and a future. Don't rob them blind as you are currently doing to us. Have a conscience and stop being so greedy. Please!

The folks blogging here mostly probably are the ones on the receieving ends of the Big Fat Salaries, Big Fat Pensions, and the raises and increases of both respectively, over 30 years and then another 30 years in retirement.

You folks can continue to be in denial....you can continue to be greedy. Did any of you ever hear the saying "PIGS GET FAT WHILE HOGS GET SLAUGHTERED." This is what will happen.

It is not enough for you folks in City Hall to just get fat. You want to get fatter and fatter....greedier and greedier....until you are all SLAUGHTERED by the taxpayers when they realize how FAT you finally have gotten. The taxpayers will literally eat you folks up all alive and roast you, as you can not control yourselves and are making this OBESITY ever so apparent.

Thank you!

CIJ

Please, will someone tell CSI that repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating, DOES NOT MAKE YOU RIGHT... MOVE ON WITH YOUR LIFE.

This $17.4 million AAPL Deficit is above and beyond those in the P and F Pension Funds.

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Sorry this is an error. I was helping a Grant's Employee install a new stove and convection microvave/oven and lost my concentration.

The Accrued Actuarial Pension Liability Deficit for the City IMRF was actually $29,992,194 at 12/31/2008 and not $17.4 million.

I did provide the correct link.

Here is a simple mistake I made where I had the city looking better by $12.6 million dollars. So a mistake can not be considered an attempt to inflate or deflate and an attack on ones credibility especially when it has the opposite effect as to what is being alleged.

This number is in addition to the $96.2 million Police and Fire Pension Fund Accrued Acturarial Pension Liability Deficit.

If you add these numbers you actually obtain that $126.2 million AAPLD I have been using the last few days.

Sorry, I have to always be so detailed and use long descriptions but the minute I don't, unfortunately, someone jumps on me and accuses me of not being credible or exaggerating.

The situation is really so dismal that everything may seem inflated, exaggerated, and increased but it really is not. It is just the REAL BAD NEWS that City Officials do not want to swallow. They seem to want to be in denial in order that the naive/sleepy/apathetic taxpayers continue allowing them to receive thesed BIG FAT PENSIONS.

The IMPLOSION will eventually come whether the taxpayers wake up or remain sleeping. It is just a matter of WHEN. Those are not my words but the approximate words of Former Woodridge Police Pension Fund Manager Gary Menconi and the Napergate Man. They made the predictions when the situation was very gray. I simply agree with them when the facts have made the situation as BLACK and WHITE as can be.

Thank you,
CIJ

Chris

I think what's happening is that people are getting that 505 error message that says that the message didn't go thru and they are sending it again and again. You need to let people know that the 505 message is a mistake and the message actually did go thru.

How can we beleive any of CIJ numbers when he OVERSTATES the annual salary of the FIREFIGHTERS that work for NFD.

CIJ STATED "Now if a PO or FF starts his pension at 90k which is 75% of his final salary of 120k." on October 17, 2009 8:04 PM

Per the Union Contract posted on the city web site..... Max salary of a topped out, 30 year Firefighter is $78067.90 The max salary of a topped out, 30 year Lieutenant is $95581.53 and only 20 people have made it to the Lieutenant rank. That means that the others are topping out at $78067.90 after 30 years NOT 120K.

The 120K salary would be for one man only...THE FIRE CHIEF.. see link....
http://www.naperville.il.us/dynamic_content.aspx?id=10050

"The fire chief is responsible for providing leadership to a department of approximately 200 professionals among soon-to-be 10 neighborhood fire stations. Chief Puknaitis will report to the city manager. His annual salary will be $128,520."

By -1 on October 17, 2009 9:27 PM
CIJ: you keep mentioning 0% return on investment.

From the final financial report, page x (file page 14):

The average ten-year total return for the Police Pension Fund and Firefighters’ Pension Fund was 4.03% and 3.83%, respectively.

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You could be right. I read this as the TOTAL return for the 10 years.

I would think if they are talking about each year it could/should/would have been worded:

The average ANNUAL ten-year return for the Police Pension Fund and Firefighters; Pension Fund was 4.03% and 3.83%.

I do write from memory and I recall reading those .3% and .4% numbers that could have come from the information you posted. They are about one tenth of those numbers.

It seems to me the auditors were not very clear with their choice of words.

Maybe Forensic Accountant Experienced will see these posts and try to intepret if this was for the 10 year TOTAL period or EACH year of that period.

With that P and F Pension Fund $20.50 million hit in 2009, they would have had to have done very well in prior years to overcome that devastation. Plus there was another very bad disaster in the stock market between 2000-2002.

The Nasdaq is still down 60% from its highs in those years. If the City had nothing in the Nasdaq it could possibly have made 3 or 4% per year. But this is below the 7.5% used to figure out the $126.2 million accrued actuarial pension liability deficit. I think to rid ourselves of this deficit by 2033, we need returns upwards of 20%.

The IMRF Pension Liability Deficit for the City got worse even during the boom years:

12/31/2008 29,992,194
12/31/2007 12,601,905
12/31/2006 12,046,534
12/31/2005 10,046,899
12/31/2004 8,422,125
12/31/2003 4,179,138
See accompanying independent auditors’ report.
page 70

Link:
http://naperville.il.us/emplibrary/FY09CAFR.pdf

You can see how the AAPLD was worsening even in a great boom period after the 2000-2002 crash.

This $17.4 million AAPL Deficit is above and beyond those in the P and F Pension Funds.

The market did not hit rock bottom until March 6-9, 2009 so these numbers do not really reflect the true devastation.

We need much higher returns than we have been obtaining in the past during boom years if this PENSION SYSTEM is going to return to viability.

In summary there is a lot of vagueness in the City Finanacial Reports. I do not know if it is intentional or just sloppy work. The City is certainly not proud of its State of Financial Being.

CIJ

CIJ: you keep mentioning 0% return on investment.

From the final financial report, page x (file page 14):

The average ten-year total return for the Police Pension Fund and Firefighters’ Pension Fund was 4.03% and 3.83%, respectively. The Police Pension Fund experienced a net investment loss of $10.54 million for FY 2009 and the Firefighters’ Pension Fund lost $9.98 million in investments for a total loss of $20.5 million on all pension investments for the year ended April 30, 2009.

I haven't read too far into this. I assumed the 4.03% and 3.83% was per year. I know the money in the stock market has about zero (to negative) return depending on when it was invested, but some money was in interest bearing accounts which would have had some decent return in the past 10 years.

-1

By Original Joe on October 17, 2009 11:32 AM
CIJ,

It doesn't matter who starts it. If you think you did not start it then show some class and ignore it. It makes the instigator look bad. It takes two to argue and take a discussion in a bad direction.

========================================================================================================================================

I know your remarks are well intentioned OJ.

I think it is important that I document that they start these exchanges.

You can look at my first post here on this thread or on the new Library Thread. I don't mention any blogger. I provide recommendations. I suggest solutions. That is pretty much what I do.

Then I the messenger is attacked instead of my message.

TB attacked my young teenage daughter with libelous comments....implying she must be a bad girl because a young friend of a church friend of hers stole her cell phone. Kids will be kids until they grow up and mature. She now "hangs around theives," says TB....lol....because she was a victim of a crime. I thought Mr. Huber did not make sense but TB is right there with him.

The problem we have on this blog site is the majority who are motivated to blog are the recipients of the abuse of the taxpayer funds. The real world is different than this blog site.

I had breakfast this morning and the owner of the business was cussing on these pensions to all his customers. He wanted to know why he can't gert a pension and was telling his customers NO MORE TAXES.

I went to a wake this afternoon and 2 attorneys and an insurance executive were also outraged with Naperville wanting to increase taxes. Then they asked me if I heard what happened at the Federal level and I said no. They then told me that our House of Representatives and Senators voted to increase their expense accounts $99,000 each. Can you imagine that in this downtrodden economy.

I have not verified this yet but the lawyers seemed credible.

I think the people on the street have had it with government waste and high taxation at all levels of government.

People feel governemnt is out of control. I think the apathy is going to end. I really feel much of this crazines will be coming to a conclusion soon as more and more people wake up.

How can anyone defend a Corrupt and Unafffordable Pension System. We are now giving our POs and FFs nearly 25% contributions and we have a $126.2 million pension liability deficit that keeps getting worse.

How much of a contribution against their wages do they want from us?
Our employers give us 2-4% in contributions and many have cut them out completely in this recession.

Our pension funds have had an almost 0% return the last 10 years.
This is likely to continue since our economy is in shambles, the dollar is losing its value, unemployment is over 10% and rising, jobs are being shipped overseas, and we keep borrowing money from China and living on borrowed time.

What people don't understand is that if these Pensions have 0% returns you actually need contributions of at least 100% of salaries in order to be able to pay 75% of the final salary for another 30 years with 3% increases per year.

If a PO or FF averages 90k a year(starts at 60k and ends at 120k which is only a 2.4% raise per year...actuaries factor in 6% increases in their analysis of which 3% is inflation) he would make $2.7 million dollars in his 30 year career. If we the taxpayers gave 90.55% contributions instead of 21-25% against wages to complement the employee 9.45% contribution, we would collect from him and us the taxpayers $2.7 million.

Now if a PO or FF starts his pension at 90k which is 75% of his final salary of 120k, with 3% pension increases, he would average $107,500. This would cost us $3,225,000 over 30 years assuming the average life expectancy of a FF or PO is 82 and he or she retires at 52.

One of the many problems with this pension system, OJ, is the rate of Return On Investments in the P @ F Pension Funds which has been nearly 0% the last 10 years, is not helping. At 7.5% ROI and even 15% the pension model simply fails (to be exact the ROI has been .3%-.4% which is almost 0 in the last decade.)And this does not even factor that we are 126.2 million in the hole behind the 8 ball which would require huge returns to make up for 10 years of NO RETURNS.

So even if we paid a 100% contribution we would have $2.7 million to pay $3.225 million if we continue with a 0% return on investment. In Japan after the 1991 bust, they have continued with negative returns of investment over the last 2 decades. This is also likely to happen here since everything is now made in China and our industrial base has been decimated.

We actually need 119.44% contributions of PO and FF salaries annually to make this work if the rate of return is 0...more if it is negative. if the POs and FFs are paying 9.44% contribution from their wages, than the taxpayer must pay 110% instead of 21-25% to make this sustainable.

This is the problem we have. No reasonable contributions can sustain the Pension System in its broken form.

Our Actuaries assumed, when they computed our $126.2 million pension liability deficit, we can earn a rate of return of 7.5% the next 20 years even though we had a near 0% return the last 10 years. So if they would have factored in a 0% rate of return or a negative return as occurred in Japan after the real estate bubble there, our pension liability deficit would have been many times worse.

The numbers just don't add up even at 110% conrtibutions. How will they work if we only currently collect 9.45% from our police officers and up to 25% from our residents. (LY residents contributed 21% but it has been increased for this year.)

Are POs and FFs willing to cough up 60% of their salaries in pension contributions while we taxpayers match it with another 60% to make this work?

I suspect the POs and FFs are not willing to cough up 60% of their salaries even though the pensions are purely theirs. Why do they expect us taxpayers to cough up an equivalent of 60% of their salaries if they will not cough up an equivalent amount since they want to high roll it in retirement starting at a very young age? This seems ridiculous and ludicrous.

Why can't a fire fighter work at age 53? If you need to be 25-35 to enter a burning building, the older fire fighters can work the back lines. They can connect the hoses or whatever else while the younger ones fight that very rare fire. They can drive and man the ambulances. But to sit on a lazy chairs with cigars in mouth at age 53 watching movies while the rest of the civilian population tries to subsidize their impossible plush retirements is not palatable to most taxpayers or myself.

Thank you,

CIJ

CIJ --

You're always worth a laugh, clueless as ever.

My post wasn't angry or hostile and I never lost my temper. Maybe that describes you at the moment, but not me. I thought my post was rather informative. I don't expect you to understand. Besides, you'll re-write it as you please just as you're trying to re-write your own history.

What you fail to see is that I never said the NPD and NFD shouldn't ever be cut. What I said was that public safety functions (not just the NFD) should be the LAST to be cut.

Do you really think that advocating for not cutting the NFD budget somehow saves my brother's job, salary, or pension? He doesn't work for our city so this link of yours is ridiculous.

My point is, how safe do you want to be? How much do you value safety? I guess I just value it more than you. How much longer would you allow the NFD & NPD response times to get? How long is too long? How many dollars can we save before we possibly lose a life? Because that's really what we're talking about here. How much is a life worth to you? Not just anyone's life, but a family member's life? If you're family is trapped by fire, do you want the first responders to be the trained men and women of the NFD or a volunteer force? And which one would respond faster?

You think you can throw around dollars and cents on a spreadsheet, but you're really playing roulette with lives. Good thing you're not running for office. I can here the campaign slogans now..."Vote for me and be less safe!" or "A vote for me is a vote for more crime!" or even "Don't worry...fire's not really that hot!"

As for your statements about the NPD, you can run from your past but it'll always follow you. Why? Because even now you refuse to acknowledge what you wrote without trying to minimize it or explain it away. Until you honestly confront your past, you're just a fraud.

T.B.

CIJ,

" Don't be fooled OJ as to who starts these altercations. "

It doesn't matter who starts it. If you think you did not start it then show some class and ignore it. It makes the instigator look bad.

It takes two to argue and take a discussion in a bad direction.

T.B. on October 16, 2009 11:37 PM
_________

TB, Thank you for the post. Thank your brother for all of us who sometimes take this kind of work for granted.

Anonymous One and T.B.,

I guess you guys are losing it. Go out and have a drink at BlackFinn American Saloon and mellow out.

Keep in mind I never address either of you until you address me first. That is my policy with every blogger.

I guess you guys want to dish it out but when I dish it back you go off the deep end.

Neither of you apparently understands that the condemnation of a policy of the police department is not the condemnation of the police in that department. That is where we are seeing an extreme lack of intelligence in bloggers like Anonymous One and T.B.!

Neither of you understand that the condemnation of a specific police officer is not the condemnation of an entire police department. I have condemned Sgt. Gregory Bell for his behavior that fateful evening 2 or 3 years ago. That is old news. I said what I had to say and Gregory's friend came on and defended him. We agreed to disagree and it is over. Why do you folks wish to ignite an old battle. Obviously, because you can not refute my allegations such as private leaf collection is not economical. If you think it is economical prove it. Attacking my teenage daughter because you have no rebuttal is absolutely foolish....it is immature stupidity.

Why in the world would you want to talk about the Napergate Man after you all said let us move beyond this one case that ate up 15 Napergate Threads and a good year of debating? You want to reopen this can of worms we closed so you can cover up the City Budget, the AAPLD and Big Fat Pensions. Who are you trying to fool? Do you folks think bloggers are ignorant.

It seems like I recently exposed some real bad policies at City Hall and you guys decided to go ballistic on me. If you support higher taxes and government waste, speak up. Don't be shy. No need to attack a teenage girl that has nothing to do with this discusssion. Shame on you boys!

You, T.B, said you are against cuts in the Fire Department unless it is a last resort. I disagree with you and think they should cut like every other department 10% of everything right off the bat....no exceptions. You treat the FD like they are some kind of gods or saints. They don't do anything MOST of the TIME. It is a FACT! Told to me by a fire fighter who works at Lisle-Woodridge fD.. I believed him and still do.

And while you are insulting to my teenage daughter who smoked marijuana and stopped, I was never insulting to your brother or Dad. I was simply against the policy that gives them or anyone else in the USA a pension. Pensions need to be abolished. Everyone in this country needs to be on the same system. If you don't like the Social Security System, let us come up with a new system that both private and public emplyees can use equally and benefit from in a like manner.

I did say you were biased towards pensions because of your brother and father which is not an attack on either. It was brought up simply to question your impartiality for pensions. If anything your rant proved that you were biased. So why be phony on this blog site. Just come out and say I am for Big Fat Pensions. It is good to see that you came out of the closet finally after unleashing your anger on a teenage girl who had never done anything to you. Really how shameful of you T.B. to pick on a young girl who is learning what is right and what is wrong in this world.
I can tell you one thing for sure...she has much more mental stability than you do. You are a grown man literally losing control of yourself and having a temper tantrum. Get a hold of yourself, TB.

It is ridiculous to have the private sector working as greeters at Sam's when they are 85 years old so public employees can get a Big Fat Pension and retire at age 52. I find this insulting. I find the entire system corrupt. I think I have been showing Napervillians how corrupt this pension system is. Instead of defending it you libel my daughter. How low can you boys get?

If you want to say she was a former pot smoker go ahead and say it. But don't imply she still smokes pot. To say she hangs around thieves is ridiculous because she was robbed of items. Who has not had something stolen from him or her at one time or another? So we should say these people hang around with thieves. Get real, T.B.
What have you been smoking lately that has enraged you?

And Anonymous One I like how you ignored my complements of the NPD as if I did not make them and only broadcast my condemnations. If this is not distortion, I don't know what is.

I stand by both my complements and condemnations of NPD policies and procedures. So what is your point. If you feel otherwise, explain your feelings. This is a forum that allows you to debate and discuss but not to LIBEL.

And I do consider Sgt. Bell's behavior that night prickish and despicable. How many times do I have to repeat that? You don't throw an innocent peaceful man in jail for an entire night and leave his friend and dog stranded in downtown because his daughter went through a toll(s) over 5 years ago when she was 16 or 17. This behavior is not civilized behavior.

So what is your point of bringing up a topic we put to rest 3 years ago. We beat it to death. Do you want me to apologize to Sgt. Bell? He needs to apologize to the Napergate Man for abusing and humiliating him that evening over nothing. The Napergate Man showed a lot of class and said he will turn himself in right after he gets his dog home.

The Napergate Man was not a flight risk. He owns a home, liquor stores and even a shopping center in Naperville. Why treat him in this manner? Is he going to flee the country over a $100 dollar ticket. The behavior of the NPD officers that evening was venomous. It was vindictive. It was a retaliation for all those ads the Napergate Man ran questioning the waste in the NPD and other departments of Naperville for 10 years.

You can not give Professional Courtesy to some and not to others. This is discrimination and I believe the Sgt.Bell and the NPD officers involved in that incident discriminated against the Napergate Man that evening.

Would Chief Dial, Mayor Pradel, CM Wehrli or CM Miller been PHYSICALLY arrested with HAND-CUFFS if their daughter or son ran a toll 4 or 5 years ago and they did not have a clue about it? Would they not have been given an opportunity to surrender themselves with out hand-cuffs even if they were arrested?

The answer is NO. They would not have been arrested or hand-cuffed. Thus the NPD uses Professional Courtesy to discrimate against non-Establishment Folks. That is a fact.

I suggest you guys quit while you are ahead. This is not a subject you want to open up with ME. It has been dead for 3 years. Let it remain dead.

I think we beat the arrest of the Napergate Man to death for nearly a year. Why do we have to reopen this case and remind everyone of the behavior of the NPD officers that fateful evening? Why do we have to open this subject again and remind everyone that the NPD does discriminate against non-Establishment Folks?

I have been trying to look beyond this incident and have been praising the NPD as recently as today before you started your attacks. Why can't you guys move forward like I do? I have shown I can drop my hostility and move forward. What is with you guys that you can not drop your hostility towards ME? I never talk about either of you or mention you in my blogs until you provoke me FIRST. It is all in black, white, bold and documented. Don't be fooled OJ as to who starts these altercations. You have been more than fair recently and please keep observing. Don't get caught up with the majority. Be independent as you have been. Be just as you have been!

You folks always wanted me to use one handle. I never wanted to. Now I have only been using one handle for months just to mellow you guys down and you are still upset. This just proves that MY MESSAGES are rocking the heart of ESTABLISHMENT. You folks have no answers for MY MESSAGES.

Thus you could not control yourselves and decided to go back and attack the MESSENGER. Constantly ignoring the recommendation of Moderator Magee.

You guys are so obvious, I could almost see through both of you guys as if you were transparent like a thin layer of ice that crumbles just by poking at it.

Now just go out, have a beer and chill out for the rest of the night. Get some lives. Discuss issues and not personalities.

And don't start up with me. You both proved in your last blogs that you have thin skin with only an ability to dish it out but no ability to receive it when it is fired back. Control yourselves and your anger and hostility.

Thank you!

CIJ

It's not a wonder CIJ why you never want anyone to go back in the archives, there is too much damning evidence about your obvious dislike for the NPD. (And for those not aware, the name Elizabeth was just one of over 50 different names that CIJ used to use when "debating" on this blog).
_____________________________________________________________

Another one of these is Diane G and guess what? Shes back, posting on this and other blogs. I guess you cant help the mentally ill until they recognize they have a problem.

from cij
I just praised an NPD officer and the NPD just in a prior post to yours. That shows that you are spewing your own hatred and lies on this blog site. Why would I praise the NPD and its officer if I hated them....silly!

Go on pretending that we are stupid enough to believe the backpeddling, CIJ. You don't want anyone to delve into the past because your true spirit is revealed, back before the jig was up. Why would you praise the NPD if you hated them? Because it serves you to pretend that you are unbiased and not a hater. If they are as unethical and crooked at you think they are, then they already know who you are, who your kids are, and what you are up to on a regular basis. Remember how your IP addresses were posted?

T.B.

Wow! What a great post! I recommend you save it, and re-post it every time our friend mentions your "bias" in the future, as I suspect he's still not going to put to rest this silly attempt to impugn your character.

-JQP

CIJ,

Please, take your own advice and stick to the topics and don't go one about other posters. Your message gets lost and ignored when you do this.

TB: Thank your brother for me for being willing to risk his life to save others when the occasion arises, regardless of where he works be it here or any other city/county/location.

Citizen Investigative Journalist on October 16, 2009 9:46 PM

*when 14 police officers sit like potted plants in a jury box collecting OT for no good apparent reason.
*I am condeming NPD policy for allowing their police to sit like potted plants in a jury box and collect OT
*I condemned the stationing of 17 police officers on the corner of Chicago Ave/Washington St. that allowed a robber to hold up 2 gas stations within 4 blocks of each other simultaneously before any cop even showed up
*They are checking the girls out in mini skirts, high heels and low cut shirts showing the midriff
*as a "PRICKISH" act. I stand by that comment.
*Yes, if this is not prickish behavior, I don't know what is.
*The NPD should have known taxi cabs will not transport dogs

_____________________

I guess I was mistaken CIJ. Based on this last post it is obvious that you have nothing but respect for the NPD and would never utter a hateful word toward them!!

And since you brought it up, lest anyone forget what you think, here is the direct quote you made while you were pretending to be a woman named Elizabeth. (Note the date, it was not 2-3 years ago) This is what you said about the NPD:

Elizabeth on March 5, 2008 7:12 PM
*The officers involved in this specific incident were SCUM, SCUM, SCUM!!! PRICKS, PRICKS, PRICKS!!!
*These are PRICKS if they are not fascist!
*I would love to tell them they are PRICKS right to their faces. Yes, PRICKS, PRICKS and PRICKS!

And just to cap it off, two more of your aliases responded to "Elizabeth" and said the following:

*They were the devil in disguise. They were evil doers!
*Of course the police officers involved were PRICKS and SCUM BAGs that fateful evening

It's not a wonder CIJ why you never want anyone to go back in the archives, there is too much damning evidence about your obvious dislike for the NPD. (And for those not aware, the name Elizabeth was just one of over 50 different names that CIJ used to use when "debating" on this blog).

CIJ –

You just don’t get it, do you?

You’ve continually referred to me as “biased” or having a “conflict” because my brother is a firefighter even though we’re talking about Naperville’s taxes and I have consistently stated that my brother is NOT a Naperville firefighter. Moreover, you conveniently ignore the fact that I have repeatedly called for reform of the fire and police pension systems as long as the current employees are given what they were promised when they were hired. I think it’s only fair that they get what the city assured them and start a two-tiered system from this day forward. You think Huber has a case against the city? Just wait until the fire and police unions hear you want to take their pensions away.

Now, as for my brother and father. You, the parent of the pot-smoking dancer who befriends thieves, seem to delight in the fact that both of them work (or worked) in public service. So let me tell you about them. I am damn proud of them both. I don’t have any problem stating such and the idea you put forth much earlier that you somehow “pulled” this info out of me is ridiculous. I would shout it from the rooftops.

My father grew up the son of an uneducated, depression era window-washer. He put himself through catholic high school and college working as a butcher. He earned a masters degree in taxation at a time that such a degree was still fairly rare (unlike today) and could have earned a lot of money in the private sector; however, he went to work for the government after his discharge from the Naval Reserves because he felt a sense of pride in his country and a sense of honor in his work. I have no doubts that he could have earned much more if he’d gone to work for one of the big firms but he enjoyed his work immensely.

My parents raised three boys to be the best citizens they could be. All of us work in public service of some kind. Mock that if you choose as I know the folly of your ways. Although my mother and father made sure that each of us went to college and earned degrees, which could earn us more money elsewhere, we learned from our father the satisfaction that comes with public service. None of us will ever be rich, but we’ll be comfortable and we each take real pride in the work we do.

My father worked a second job to pay for our schooling and also to qualify for Social Security as this was not part of the civil service retirement at the time. You want to slam double-dipping? He EARNED that money the hard way—by being away from his family many nights and working his ass off.

You want to slam my brother for being a firefighter? He doesn’t sit on his ass every day. He trains and maintains equipment so that, God forbid, he can rescue sorry SOBs like you from fires or other emergencies when they’re called upon. You think he gates paid for sleeping? No, he gets paid to pick up body parts along the train tracks. He gets paid to make sure he can carry your fat ass out of a fire. He gets paid to run in when everyone else is running out. He gets paid to spend many nights and holidays away from his family while you rest easy in your McMansion. You think you pay for services you use, while in reality you pay for the comfort you get every day. You have absolutely no idea what you spout when you sit at your keyboard on a daily basis--you’re clueless.

You think bringing up my family will somehow shut me up? Think again, fool.

T.B.

P.S. Lest you worry too much about my father collecting his BIG FAT PENSION from the feds, he’s deceased. Does that make you happy?

“I think as T.B. said it would be better if you guys could control yourselves and not comment on what I am saying and stick to the Topics and Subject.”

Just where was this comment made?????

T.B.

By Anonymous ONE on October 16, 2009 6:14 PM
T.B. on October 16, 2009 7:40 AM

I had forgotten about the history of hatred toward the NPD, remember the post by one of the "personalities" when he called the NPD all "prick$"? I also noticed not a bit of remorse for these statements in the response.

========================================================================================================================================

Rather amazing how you want to discuss subjects that are 2-3 years old to take the focus off City Hall.

1. I do not have any hatred towards the Naperville Police. I do dislike how the Dept. wastes 3 million dollars uncessarily on OT.

2. I have praised some of the actions of the NPD and I have condemned some of their other actions.

3. I just praised an NPD officer and the NPD just in a prior post to yours. That shows that you are spewing your own hatred and lies on this blog site. Why would I praise the NPD and its officer if I hated them....silly!

4. I praised the NPD for that high speed chase that netted 2 robbers a few months ago.....at least 5 times on this blog site and agreed with another blogger who suggested they be given Medals of Honor or Recognition Certificates for their heroic efforts that day.

5. I condemned the waste of taxpayer money when 14 police officers sit like potted plants in a jury box collecting OT for no good apparent reason. Please understand I am condemning the waste of taxpayer money and not the individual police officers whom I don't even know. I am condeming NPD policy for allowing their police to sit like potted plants in a jury box and collect OT when we have a $14.1 million operating budget deficits and a $126.2 million city Accrued Actuarial Pension Liability Deficit that continues to get worse year by year even though the State of Illinios ordered us to reduce and eliminate the deficit by the year 2033. We have NPD Pension Fund Managers whom disobey

the State and engages in risky "casino style" investments.

6. I condemned the stationing of 17 police officers on the corner of Chicago Ave/Washington St. that allowed a robber to hold up 2 gas stations within 4 blocks of each other simultaneously before any cop even showed up. When you have that many police officer on one interesection cops are not attending to their own BEATS.(They are checking the girls out in mini skirts, high heels and low cut shirts showing the midriff.....that is an unacceptable waste of taxpayer money...it also endangers our residents, our employees and our businesses.)

7. I did call the actions of Officer Gregory Bell in arresting the Napergate Man and jaling him overnight because his daughter ran a .40 cent toll(s) 5 or 6 year prior, intentionally or unintentionally that he knew nothing about, as a "PRICKISH" act. I stand by that comment. What Sgt. Bell did was totally uncalled for especially since 28% of traffic violators in Naperville are let go without a ticket or even a warning. If Professional Courtesy is going to be practiced by the NPD it should be applied fairly. To think a man was not allowed to take his puppy home before voluntarily surrending himself is not only prickish but unconsionable. His friend was forced to drag his dog several miles in the wee hours of the night to a Dunkin Donuts and wait for the Napergate Man to bail himself out of jal in the morning. The NPD should have known taxi cabs will not transport dogs and made arrangements for the friend and dog instead of leaving them stranded in the downtown where there is not even one motel or hotel. Did they expect the friend and the puppy to ask HOMELESS STRIKER SCOTT HUBER to scoot over and try to accomodate them for the evening. Yes, if this is not prickish behavior, I don't know what is.

8. Finally, I identified 10 other bloggers on that Napergate Thread for JQP who were not ME who were calling the NPD every name in the book. Could have been drunks arrested for DUI's or DWI's and upset with the NPD or full of hatred for them because they had their cocaine or heroin stripped from them. I don't know but I will take credit for what I said but not for what I did not say. (And JQP please don't rehash this subject since you and I already discussed it over and over again...so please don't start up and let us stay focused on the present and not the past.)

9. I will take credit for calling the behavior of Sgt. Gregory Bell and those who assisted him that night as despicable. That does not mean I hate Sgt. Greg Bell or the NPD. I have never met Sgt. Bell and do not know who he is or what he looks like. How can I hate him? I also never met Double Dipping former Captain Robert Marshall and would not recognize him if I passed by him on the street even though I believe I saw his picture once in the Sun and recall him being athletic, fit, handsome and able to run 26 mile marathons. How can I hate him if I never even met him or know him in any personal way. I hate the act of DOUBLE DIPPING but I don't blame it on Mr. Marshall even though I use him as my Poster Boy for this issue. I blame the DD on a legally corrupt City and State Pension System.

========================================================================================================================================

You have shown Anonymous One that you are classless and clueless. Again you attempt to attack the messenger for many things he/she did not even say. You are unable to refute the latest message so you go after the messenger based on many comments she/he did not even say 2 or 3 years ago.

I think as T.B. said it would be better if you guys could control yourselves and not comment on what I am saying and stick to the Topics and Subject.

I am discussing high taxes and government waste. I am not discussing myself. Why do you feel a need to discuss ME? How many times has the Moderator asked you guys to discuss the subjects and topics on the threads. It really is beyond ME why you folks do not listen to his very reasonable advice.

I really do believe Kindergarten Kids listen and hear much better than many bloggers on this blog site. Truly amazing!

CIJ

CIJ:

So I guess the upshot is: I still haven't earned your respect, LOL.

-JQP

T.B. on October 16, 2009 7:40 AM
___________

T.B. I agree with you, but based on the response at 5:08 I believe your post went right over the head of its intended recipient.

I had forgotten about the history of hatred toward the NPD, remember the post by one of the "personalities" when he called the NPD all "prick$"? I also noticed not a bit of remorse for these statements in the response.

By John Q. Public on October 15, 2009 8:23 PM
CIJ,

The arguments in your most recent post have already been refuted by myself and others, so I'm not going to do it again.

John, you don't want to do it again because you don't want your credibility and reputation challenged again. I just gave a hypothetical example about how a 100k pension could cost millions over its life time. Now if I am talking about its cost over the lifetime of the retiree, why would I be talking about the pension pay-out amount for the first year only. I would and should be talking about the average pay-out for the 30 years. I think you and those who support you don't understand what 3% annual increases do for pension pay-outs. They increase them immensely and I gave examples and exact amounts in a prior post. So I am not going to repeat myself. You are simply a MAN in DENIAL. A man who does not understand that when you compute the cost of a pension to an individual over his remaining projected life expectancy you use the average of his pay-outs and not his starting pay. Since the average will be over 100k almost certainly for any Naperville Cop or Firefighter who obtained the minimial one or two promotions over 30 years of employment, I did not exaggerate or inflate. You need to admit you simply did not understand the impact of 3% annual increases....or maybe you did not even know that pensions increase 3% annually.

And I would like to know who your 2 supporters are who agree with you about the above issue. I challenge them to step forward. And I will have no problem PROVING them wrong as I PROVED YOU WRONG. As I said you apparently don't have the most basic of mathematical or statistical skills needed to discuss this complex issue. You are way over your head in this debate.

And you're wondering why I say it's pointless to debate you about the pensions...or anything, for that matter.

It is pointless to debate me, John, because you don't know what you are talking about. You don't understand the PRESENT VALUE of 30 years of FUTURE PAYMENTS. You don't understand the impact of 3% annual increases in pension pay-outs. You don't understand average cost is a better measure of a 30 year pension than first year cost. You did not understand that a $20.5 million loss in investment income would have a greater impact on the ACCRURED ACTUARIAL PENSION LIABILITY DEFICIT(AAPLD) than in that SAME amount until I explained it to you after you falsely accused me of inflating. You don't understand if I estimate the pension deficit for the P @ F Pensions will be "near $100 million" and it turns out to be $96.2 million, I was close enough where you have NO right to say I exaggerate. It is very likely the Auditors and Actuarials who were paid by City Officials tweaked the numbers to make them look a little better for City Hall!

P.s. I'm doing next to nothing to destroy your credibility; you're pretty much taking care of that all by yourself.

I think it is the other way around, Mr. Public. You are destroying your own credibility. You are showing that you are a blogger with no orginal ideas. You are showing you are a man obsessed with my research. A man obsessed with my credibility. A man obsessesed with my reputation. A man obsessed with my numbers. A man with no life who will spend hours upon hours trying to slice, mince and dice my numbers after searching old blogs hour upon hour.

Why are you so afraid of my research, JQP? Why are you worried about my results, JQP? What are you afraid to lose? A job in City Hall possibly!

You know I am 99% accurate in what I research and publish. Sure I am capable of making a mistake here and there. What you always attempt to do is look for minor mistakes I may make and say look folks, CIJ, has no credibility. Look she/he inflates even though I may have even deflated. That is the dirty game you are playing JQP. Keep playing it and I will keep exposing your nastiness to distort the truth time and time again.

The truth always comes out and prevails regardless of how you attempt to spin and mince it....after you sliced and diced it. What in the world are you trying to cook, John Q. Public? You would make a great cook at the Four Seasons Hotel with all the spices you have in your arsenal. Maybe even a great politician in State Government as you seem just like them....can't tell the simple truth even if you are hit across the head with a 2 by 4!

Your attempts to destroy my credibility and reputation will only backfire and result in the destruction of your own credibility and reputation. I feel I have been very successful in doing this. I will systematically continue in my efforts within the parameters permitted by Moderator Maggee. Consider yourself lucky he had me edit and revise this thread to lighten up on you.

I am sorry you have such low self esteem that you feel this need to attack a fellow blogger relentlessly....an obsession to nit pick the writings of another by quoting out of context and distoring, if you will, even though they are as truthful and accurate as can possibly be on complex subjects. Get a life John. Have some fun! Enjoy life!

CIJ

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PS. BlackFinn American Saloon opened up last night and I had a blast there. A very impressive change from Tessa which failed in a few months after capital outlays reported to be near $5 million dollars. Great remodeling job. The place was really rocking and rolling. The employees were extremely friendly. I predict this place will be a massive success story.

I had written here on this blog site about a month ago that they had posted hours of 2am closing 7 days a week in paint on all their doors and brochures. One of the managers said a police officer visited them about a month ago and made them change their posted hours to 1am closings on weekdays. Like I told you folks, more people than you want to believe read and monitor this Blog Site including the Naperville Police Dept.....and they should. My tip was helpful to them in preventing a licensee from operating an extra hour an evening on weekdays who must have misunderstood the City of Naperville ordinance willingly or unknowingly.

Anyway, they had last call at 12:50 am and played the music till 12:52 am. They did not have the patrons out till 130am. They were fighting with customers as they were grabbing FULL drinks out of their hands at 1am when a cop entered the premises to check on them. I suspect he had a few words with them and they will hopefully clean their act up by tomorrow as far as closing time and getting drinks out of the hands of customers by 1am.

If they want to keep their customers happy they have to make last call at 1230am and give their customers at least a half hour to drink what they purchase. Pulling full drinks out of customers hands that were sold at 12:50 am is not good public relations. On the other hand maybe they thought they were in NYC and no cop would show up to check on them upon closing......or possibly they can do favors for cops and have them look the other way. Naperville Cops are pretty straight even though HOMELESS STRIKER, Mr. Scott Huber, alleges they stole $1.7-$2 million dollars from his storage shed. Something I just don't believe even though he told me in person with a straight face and unrolling eyes.

So the NPD did a great job of laying the law down on this out of town establishment who were testing the waters on their first day. It only took one cop and not 17 so things may be improving with the resource cops back in the schools instead of loitering in downtown Naperville.

BlackFinn got a pretty rude awakening. I suspect they will comply in the future as they appear to be a very professional organization. They are forecasted to do over 5 million per year so hopefully they can bring some very badly needed sales tax revenue to the downtown. They are on a block with 4 other remaining vacancies, 3 of which are in a row and next to each other.

In the future, I suspect we will see as many taxi cabs on Jefferson as we will see on Chicago now that we have Potters, Rizzo and BlackFinn on the same block. Let's hope we don't also see another 17 cops on the corner of Jefferson and Washington in the summers. One cop really did a great job monitoring overflowing BlackFinn, and relatively busy Rizzos and Potter's. So we don't need 17 cops.

TB asks how do you expect to stop the heroin problem in town if you want to cut the Police Budget. Simple, TB, assign the school resource officers to the heroin problem instead of allowing them to check out the girls in high heels, long boots and mini-skirts in the downtown area. Is that really hard to do, TB? We just have a Police Chief who is very old and tired and simply can not think out of the box and truthfully I am not sure even in his younger years he was able to think out of his box. He seems stuck in his plush office in his Castle. He spends time researching Homeland Security and how he can defend against terrorists, missles from China and Russia, and immigrants crossing the border illegally. Do you read his columns in the Naperville Sun? He appears to have lost interest in Naperville.

Give him his pension to boot and send him packing to be with his former boss, Peter Burchard in Florida. No severance or parachutes, PLEASE!

CIJ

By T.B. on October 16, 2009 7:40 AM
CIJ –
Now, you earlier mocked the leaf collection EXAMPLE as a mere $100K savings, which I agree is a fraction of the budget. I seem to recall that you had a real problem with the city spending (wasting?) $100K on police OT for Ribfest, but you evidently have no problem with the city wasting $100K on a service you admit you don’t even use. So which is it? Is $100K a small sum for the city to waste or is it irresponsible? You can’t have it both ways, CIJ. If your landscaper charges you $30 to pick up your leaves…how much do you think it costs the city to pick up your neighbors’ leaves?

========================================================================================================================================

I do pay $30 bucks for leaf collection. If every home used a private service it would cost 50,000 homes x $30 or $1.5 million for each round of leaf collection.

A private company has to come special for you. They are not coming cheap.

The city rolls from one home to another and can do each home literally in minutes probably at a cost of a dollar or two per home due to MASS EFFICIENCIES.

If this leaf collection does cost 100k per shot, which I don't know factually but I am once again estimating, eliminating it would make City Taxes 100k less per picking or $2 per household

But how does this help the struggling Naperville Resident when it costs $30 bucks for an outside service to pick up your leaves 3 times during the fall season. This is $90. I suspect the city can pick it up 3 times for a cost of only $2 dollars per household each time due to mass efficiencies of scale.

Thus you want to save each taxpayers $6 off his or her real estate tax bill and turn around and cost them $90 to retain a private service. You are making the City Finanacial Statement look better but you are SCREWING each TAXPAYER/RESIDENT out of $84 dollars in savings. Do you call this FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE, T. B.? Seriously, try to think befor you write. For Heaven's Sake!

It really is better T.B. if you do not respond to me. Why break down and let me expose your ignorance as I have exposed John Q. Public's ignorance time and time again.

You guys are better off focusing on the Subjects in the Blog Thread Headings as opposed to what I write. My knowledge has been obtained from many years of researching. I think and study before I write. I don't shoot my mouth just to shoot my mouth. I have agendas and causes I am trying to push in hopes we can one day accomplish them so Naperville can once again be affordable for its natives to live in of which my spouse qualifies as one and so do my 4 children. Unfortunately, I am only a long term immigrant and do not have the same rights as the ESTABLISHMENT folks using and abusing the immigrants and even the natives who are not connected.

You guys need to do some research instead of pouncing on fellow bloggers.

TB, you are the biased blogger with a brother who is a FIREMAN who does not believe the FD should cut costs or wages 10% immediately like every other department in the city despite the fact that it is LOADED with EXCESS FAT and the number of Fire Fighters is based on old historical measures which are now obsolete due to substantial improvements in BUILDING FIRE CODES such as required SPRINKLER SYSTEMS in all commercial, office and industrial buildings that will put out the fire automatically before the Fire Engines even arrive in almost all cases. (Did anyone notice that was all just ONE SENTENCE...if there is a school teacher in the house, I would like to know if this is a "run-on" sentence....it has been a long time since I took grammar..lol)

Start thinking out of the box, T.B. Stop paroting and parakeeting your buddy JQP who will sink your credibility and reputation right along with his own.

Be a wise man and think before you write...

CIJ

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PS. And $100,000 for leaf collection and $100,000 for Police OT at a private event that does not benefit taxpayers are 2 different animals. One is an elephant and one is a bird. How could you think a bird and an elephant are the same TB? Are you really that blind?

The leaf collection saves the taxpayers nearly $4.2 million if done 3 times annually. ($4.5 million for private service - 300k for the City providing this excellent service.)

If you would just pause and think for a second, you would realize no private entity is coming to your home to pick leaves up for 2 bucks when it costs them at least twice that much in gas just to find your home and get to it. When will REASON ever PREVAIL on this blog site? When will people stop thinking beyond Kindergarten? I think I would hang myself if I had to teach Kindergarten if this is how rough it can be.

I bet the Moderator is happy he majored in HISTORY instead of EDUCATION. Great move, Moderator Magee!

And I will rethink and edit the last post directed at Mr. Public. I have no problem trying to control my emotions even though others arouse them deliberately and viciously over and over again while I am simply blogging on TOPICS and SUBJECTS.

(I just hope you are noticing this, Moderator Magee.)

Thank you!

CIJ

TO: By Anonymous ONE on October 15, 2009 3:38 PM

What's good, whats bad?

My Good Bad short list:

What was good:
The city and schools were delivering a good product at a competitive price. This attracted and kept a lot of high tech and chemical companies in the area. These companies hired more employees who moved to Naperville and paid into the systems. AT&T and Amoco were the two seed companies who moved here well before our governments and schools ramped up, the horse before the cart. The builders who control City Hall and the local vendors profited handsomely by being in the right place at the right time to supply the companies moving here for the highly skilled workforce. The clout of the bar district has gone up considerably in the last years as the liquor began to flow at 20x mark ups, money for everyone.

What's bad: most of the Illinois and Naperville government entities exploited the housing bubble to double the taxes on homeowners and businesses while delivering the same level of service. Let's call it a "Government bubble". No business could survive this kind of inefficient cost inflation, all of their customers would leave.

What is the reaction to the Government Bubble?:

*States like Texas that provide government services at a reasonable cost, demanded reasonable down payments on real estate and don't allow the unions to threaten, strong arm and intimidate people into membership, and have apparently minimized government run corruption have continued to prosper.

*Corrupt, high-tax, highly unionized, anti-business, social justice, income redistribution States like Illinois, Michigan, NY, and California that are controlled by the neo-Marxists are losing their employers (capitalist pigs) as they either flee to other states, other countries or close their doors and go out of business. To keep these failed leftist States afloat and the neo-Marxists in power, the neo-Marxists who control the Federal Legislature and Executive branch are borrowing insanely, printing money insanely, and redistributing money to their socialist and neo-Marxist voter base and connected vendors, “sharing the wealth”; their assumption is that their voters won't have to repay the loans or see their life savings evaporate with the ongoing dollar collapse.

*The neo-Marxists are still pushing ahead with their race, gender and sexual preference based legal systems (sounds like the NAZI Party), separate and unequal rights. Judy Biggert's legislation designed to make gays more protected if they are assaulted (assaulting a lesbian gets stiffer penalties and an FBI task force; conversely, raping or assaulting a non-lesbian woman is no big deal and left to the local authorities) this was attached to the defense spending bill to provide cover for the cowards sponsoring and voting for the unconstitutional legislation.

*Since the neo-Marxist Federal government is “re-making” the entire US into California, NY and Michigan; companies, entrepreneurs and capital are continuing to flee out of the US to capitalist and increasingly Christian countries like China. Obama announced on one of this European trips that since his election the US is now post Christian.

Grading Naperville:

Parks:
Open Space: A
Programs: A
Facilities and cost: F
Unfiltered swimming pool, skate park which became a hang out for foul-mouthed low-lives, $2 million bailout to purchase 2 acres of swamp land from Crestview Builders, cannibalizing the garden plots for the school district and the $5MM and climbing albatross Carillon built for the city's elite matrons who defrauded the city by claiming they could fund construction with donations which their fund-raising consultant had told them would fail miserably, it did.

Schools:
Academic performance which both the parents and teachers have a lot to do with: A
Unsustainable cost basis inflation and questionable capital spending: F
Bringing radical environmental indoctrination into the schools and attempting Marxism with Ayers: F

Police:
Performance A
Cost basis is unsustainable D
If the union can't understand this, the City needs to take the strike.
If home rule allows the City to pass both concealed, open carry and stand your ground laws they should do so today. For some reason, the criminals don't like armed victims. My understanding is that crime drops substantially in every state, all 48 of them, where honest people are allowed to exercise their god given and constitutional right to self-defense.
When seconds count, the police will arrive in minutes.

Fire:
Performance A
Cost and insane changes to fire code: F
Cost basis is unsustainable and the City for some inexplicable reason allowed their masters, the developers, to discontinue solid masonry buildings and move to all-wood, multi-unit, multi-story buildings especially for old people.

Building and Permits and City Council:
Service: A
Building and Permits and City Council: F
What the connected builders want, the connected builders get. For some reason the same special law firm is always the one in the middle getting the special permits and variances for the special local developers. The City actively moves to shield developers from scrutiny by abusing the Patriot Act as a reason do deny access to non-developers wishing to obtain copies of non-sensitive plans and documents. Only if you are willing to spend $5,000 in legal fees will the City produce public record documents for you.

Library system
Performance A
Cost control B
Arguably the gem of the city.

CIJ –

I like not responding to you, but here’s a special treat for you…

The leaf collection suggestion was an EXAMPLE of a service provided by the city which I believe the private sector could provide more efficiently. It was merely an EXAMPLE and I asked if there were more services which could be outsourced and save the city money. It was not intended to be a panacea for the budget woes and I stated so. You take what want from posts and leave out anything which may contradict what you’re saying. It was your usual slice and dice.

Now, you earlier mocked the leaf collection EXAMPLE as a mere $100K (your “estimate”, not mine) savings, which I agree is a fraction of the budget. I seem to recall that you had a real problem with the city spending (wasting?) $100K on police OT for Ribfest, but you evidently have no problem with the city wasting $100K on a service you admit you don’t even use. So which is it? Is $100K a small sum for the city to waste or is it irresponsible? You can’t have it both ways, CIJ.

If your landscaper charges you $30 to pick up your leaves…how much do you think it costs the city to pick up your neighbors’ leaves? I would think you’d be happy to rid the budget of a $100K for a service which you don’t use.

CIJ, let’s be serious about what you called the “fabrication” of your hatred for the NPD. It was YOU who stated that Sgt Bell and other in the NPD were scum, fascist, and worse (words which Moderator Jim let through but then refused to republish). It was YOU who led a one-man, multiple-personality vendetta against the NPD (all in the name of St. Napergate Man). It was YOU who did these things, not some fabrication.

Tell me CIJ, why do you want to cut the NPD budget so much when you use their services so frequently? Who else is going to answer your calls when your pot-smoking dancing daughter befriends another thief? How is the NPD going to rid the city of heroin as you want if you cut their budget? Please tell us, CIJ.

T.B.

Why does this sound familiar.

WSJ article on the threatening collapse of NYC's economy: Was Kurt Russell a profit?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704107204574472892886003298.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_sections_opinion

*During the boom, unions received pay raises at 3x the rate of Inflation.

*Public expenditures grew by 40%, while unfunded pension obligations increased dramatically.

*The revenue assumption was that the "wealthy" could be taxed without limit to pay for a "Luxury City" that all could enjoy.

*Increasingly-unsustainable government taxes; the collapse of the Ponzi Schemes, "too big to fail banks", apparently rigged markets, and the Federal Govt induced Clinton, Rubin, Bush, Barney, Fannie, Freddi, Community Reinvestment, ACORN, Goldman Sacs, Social Justice (repackaged Marxism) housing bubble bust has led to a collapse of the tax base.

*The Public Sector employees, many of whom live in NYC are now so numerous that they control the elections by simply turning out to vote. They vote themselves pay raises.

*Small business, entrepreneurs, and the wealthy have been targeted by the City and the Unions that control it as the cash cow for maintaining the life style of the public sector unions and connected vendors. Needless to say, the cows are packing and leaving town as the knives are sharpened. The tax base is hollowing out, fast.

".......Meantime, the city's fixed pension obligations to its workers—which Albany hikes in good times and bad—have hit a projected $6.6 billion at last count, up from $1.6 billion in 2003. Barring a sharp recovery, the city's tax-funded pension contributions are likely to double or triple over the next five years, with higher taxes on a declining private sector picking up the tab.

"We don't want to lose people who work on Wall Street," Mr. Bloomberg said recently, neatly summing up the dynamic in which high taxes on the rich pay for a padded public-sector work force while squeezing out entrepreneurs. "We need the tax base. Our teachers need to get paid." .................."

By Anonymous 5678 on October 15, 2009 8:41 PM

CIJ - your post at341 and 614 - those had to take a long time. Or do you copy and paste from previous posts you have made over the years? How long did that take?

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Anonymous 5678,

There was no COPY and PASTE on either of those 2 posts other the one line in the introduction from JQP.

It is really easier to remember and write than copy and paste. It is fun creatng each time if you are a writer. I enjoy writing and since I write so much, I can write very fast. I took typing classes when I was 12 years old as that was the hip thing to do before the internet and video war games. I recall typing over a 100 words a minute as a teenager. I hope I am faster now but I am not sure.

I wrote those 2 posts while watching CNBC and learning about the economy. They mentioned 5.8 million homes in the USA have been foreclosed on, so that started my PS. on the first post of the 2 you mention

In between posts, I took an hour and a half off to monitor Steam Magic steam clean my carpets. They did 12 rooms and stairways for 155 dollars. I thought it was a good deal since they sent 3 people but really only needed 2. Speaking of efficiency they had 2 guys holding the hose while only one steam vacuumed. It was a 2 man job but they sent 3 men. It reminded me of how City Hall wastes money.

CIJ

PS. I also never use spell check which saves a lot of time. I spell very well and most of my spelling errors are more of typing errors.

By Yawn on October 15, 2009 8:59 PM
CIJ,

I stopped reading most of your entries, but this sentence jumped off the page:

Most who claim to stop reading my posts are the ones actually reading them. If you are not reading them, you would be on the other 8 threads on this Blog Site that I do not visit, do not write on and truly do not read. Ironically, the threads I blog on usually end up having hundreds of posts. The threads I do not blog on usually stall very easily. People are reading my posts. I don't know why someone would read posts and then deny reading them.

Pensions are not paid for ONLY one year. They are paid for eternity and beyond. I really doubt that pensions will be paid out BEYOND ETERNITY.

What I meant here is that a pension is paid to the spouse after the retiree passes away. If he has a young spouse it could seem like "eternity." If Drew Peterson did not allegedly kill his former wife Stacy since she was only 17 when he began dating her the Village of Bolingbrook would have had to pay "what seems like eternity" on Drew's pension which is 6-7k per month and he is receiving while in jail. ONLY IN AMERICA!

CIJ

CIJ,

I stopped reading most of your entries, but this sentence jumped off the page:

Pensions are not paid for ONLY one year. They are paid for eternity and beyond.

I really doubt that pensions will be paid out BEYOND ETERNITY.

Thank you Anon ONE for playing along. Looks like chris started a new link for those of us who are napergated out. Thank you Chris.

CIJ - your post at341 and 614 - those had to take a long time. Or do you copy and paste from previous posts you have made over the years? How long did that take?

Back to Naperville A1 - you are right on. I know the self centered are universal. Thankfully I don't live in Highland Park or Winnetka or Kenilworth. I've been up there too many times. It is horrible. It would be like Naperville magnified by 1000. You are probably right about your % guess. But when you come across them, it just makes me want to scream. Simple things like holding the door open for people or saying thank you when someone holds the door open for you. Little things like that happened to us more than a few times when we first moved here and my spouse would repeatedly ask "where in the he!! did we move to?". Maybe it just took a while to get used to. I agree this is a great town. If we could just teach that 10% how to behave a little more civilly.

CIJ,

The arguments in your most recent post have already been refuted by myself and others, so I'm not going to do it again. I've already shown you how your own, most recent words about your pension estimates (prior to the release of they 2009-09 annual report)very clearlycontradict what you're saying now, but you refuse to admit this simple truth. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, I guess. But I have to ask: Do you really think you're scoring points here? Do you really think that pretending that you're winning will convince anyone that you actually are winning? Repeating something over and over again does not make not make it true.

And you're wondering why I say it's pointless to debate you about the pensions...or anything, for that matter.

-JQP

P.s. I'm doing next to nothing to destroy your credibility; you're pretty much taking care of that all by yourself.

By John Q. Public on October 15, 2009 2:15 PM
CIJ wrote:

I did give one example earlier on this thread, though---the $100K pension. Two other bloggers also thought this was misleading.

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JQP,

Pensions are increased 3% a year and are for life....and then the spouse continues on.

If a police officer retires with a 75k pension today, his average pension over the next 30 years if he lives to be 82(retires at 52) and his wife dies the same day is $127,000 dollars per year.(Most POs do get a couple of promotions and do end up retiring with 100k salaries so 75k as a starting point for PENSION PAY-OUTS is not an exaggeration....keep in mind they get raises projected historically at 6% based on the latest Financial Statements released recently.)

Pensions are not paid for ONLY one year. They are paid for eternity and beyond.

Bloggers keep saying my Poster Boy Robert Marshall is only double dipping for an 85k pension. That was when he retired 6 years ago. He should be NOW receiving $101,494 and maybe average $144,000 per year if he lives to be only 82 and his wife dies on the same day. And since he may be only 2 years away from being vested with another City Pension Plan that only requres 8 years of service, his Double Pension will put him way above those numbers.(How shameful of you to say I am inflating numbers, JQP....utter ridiculousness.)

I think what you fail to understand JQP is the Pension System is more than just the PRESENT. The Accrued Actuarial Pension Liability Deficits we discuss are about the future much more than the present.
It is about the present but mostly future. It is about creating a PRESENT VALUE FOR OUR FUTURE OBLIGATIONS.(I thought you read some books about finance...did you comprehend what you were reading.)

So using an average is not EXAGGERATING or INFLATING. It is being right on target. If you want to come up with what is needed to fund these pensions, you MUST factor these 3% hikes which increase every public employee's pension to over a 100k after a few years of retirement and up and up from there.

You are being IGNORANT by not factoring, understanding and comprehending the entire scenario....your head is buried upside down in concrete(forget sand) with no ability for mobility.

It is important that I call you IGNORANT because you are constantly trying to destroy my CREDIBILITY based on idiotic slicing, mincing and dicing. Like I said, play the game as long as you want, but I will make minced meat out of you in the process and already have as I have done before.

You seem to be overly upset and literally twisted that the average of my lowest and highest estimates came within a fraction(.004) of the April 30, 2009 Fiscal Accrued Actuarial Pension Liabilty Deficit. That really is a fact you can not dispute. Yes, there are many variables but if you simply took my low and high estimate you get an average of $125.7 million. That is all I said. The pension deficit for the city came in at $126.2 million. That was right on the money. I was not only in the Ball Park but in the center of it.

I never said my estimates included every variable imaginable. I just said they were ESTIMATES and in fact they came out to be EXCELLENT ESTIMATES....eat your heart out if you must.

You need to learn to give credit were credit is due. Your behavior of disputing everythiing and never acknowledging even my good work is an indication to me you have some kind of INFERIOR COMPLEX.

That means you need to cut people down to feel good. I come on here discussing serious issues. Never to cut a fellow blogger down. Look at the very first post on this thread to see how I start my debates and discussions. It is unfortunate I am constantely dragged into these situations because of immaturity that is prevalent amongst many bloggers on this BLOG SITE.

I will never forget Moderator Magee's words when he called you all a bunch of Kindergarten Children after just calling me "rather intelligent" or something along that line. How more prophetic could his well chosen words have been? Just as I like to quote the iconic Napergate Man, I also like to quote our RESIDENT HISTORIAN. I don't quote him as much because he has indicated he does not like it and will only let me do it so often before he pulls the plug from underneath me...lol...!!!

The Napergate Man appears to be retired and apparently has no interest in imposing any limits on ME regarding quoting him....at least for now...thankfully! I just love FREEDOM of SPEECH. Thank God for our US Constitution.

CIJ

T.B.,

I am not being stubborn and close minded. I made adjustments up and down as I did more research. I used input from other bloggers to adjust my numbers including the always complaing and whining Mr. Public. By not being stubborn and close minded, I almost nailed the numbers. No one can deny I was in the same ball park. As I learn the method to their madness, expect me to be better and closer next year.

And the Napergate Man was right. You need to stick to your guns when you are being attacked and you know you are right. Keep in mind I made it CLEAR I was just ESTIMATING and had no EXPERTISE!

So the attacks on ME just indicate you folks appear to have some jealousies, very low self esteem or an underlying vendetta of sorts to be constantly attacking in your uncalled for and unprofessional ways. Again, I blog about issues, subjects, thread topics and suddenly you are all blogging about ME instead of MY IRREFUTABLE MESSAGES. Attack the messenger and let us hope we can destroy his message...just like City Officials in the Napergate Days...they got egg on their faces and you folks are also getting eggs on your faces...more like rotten eggs with your obviously belligerant and uncredible attacks on my hard work and efforts to expose improprieties, lack of full disclosure and possibly corruption in City Hall.

Why don't you folks provide some solutions? Is the best you can do TB is eliminate leaf collection. In my neighborhood almost everyone uses it. It should not be about how making the Financial Statement look better for the sake of looking better, but about making it less costly to live in Naperville by improving efficiencies and saving money. Having to buy stickers instead of being taxed on the real estate bill for a service that can be done more economically in mass is NO SAVINGS TO THE TAXPAYER/RESIDENT.(JFTR my landscaper sucks up my leaves for $30 dollars a crack after mowing season is over so I don't use this city service but almost all my neighbors do and I don't mind paying for it as it is really an insignificant part of the $400 million budget.)

A lot more people use the leaf collection service than the Fire Engines or Ambulances. I have never needed either and hope never to need either. Should we eliminate these services because less than 1 or 2% use them per year? Utter nonsense in your dislogic, TB!

What saves the taxpayers real money is reducing the number of fire fighters from 204 sworn officers plus, reducing their wages 10%, starting them at 45k instead of 60k(which will save both pay-roll and pension-roll money), making them pay for a greater portion of their health benefits and life insurance(assuming they pay any), not paying for their health and life insurance benefits when they retire, forcing them to work till age 60 if they are healthy and capable, not allowing them to collect pensions till age 60 if they choose to retire earlier, not allowing them to DOUBLE DIP, reducing their pensions from 75% to 50% which is still 10 times as good as the civilian population and I could go on and on but will stop.

NOW THIS WILL SAVE REAL MONEY AND REDUCE OUR TAXES SIGNIFICANTLY...AND THIS IS ONLY ONE DEPARTMENT.

At least people can't fabricate that I hate the police anymore since I made it clear I want every single department in City Hall to cut every line itens by 10% including pay-rolls and pension-rolls.

Thank you and try thinking out of the box folks. Stop parakeeting and paroting each others comments. By doing that you can all be wrong and one person can be right. I think that is the scenario we have here.

CIJ

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PS. 5.8 million homeownes foreclosed on their homes the last 2 years and we are worried about a possible fire in a home in Naperville in which the residents would have been out already due to fire alarms and smoke detectors. Foreclosure is a real problem throwing people on the streets daily....not fires. Fires are serious but rare and hardly throwing anyone on the streets. We must reduce our Fire Fighters to a level affordable and palatable to the community that makes the cost of living in Naperville reasonable again. We are completely out of control in this city and most particulary in the Fire Dept. which has more sworn officers than the police department. Most of them according to my Fire Fighter friend in Lisle-Woodridge do little to nothing most of the day and night. He said it is the easiest job in the world 99% of the time. Not one FF has died in Naperville in 38 years so let us not paint the risk as if a Naperville FF is a soldier fighting wars in Afghanistan or Iraq. Big Difference!(No police officer in Naperville has died in 80 years on duty and if it was not for the fact the one casualty was on a "risky motorcyle" none would have died in the history of Naperville...178 years....let us not talk about combat pay for them please....just get rid of their 2 new motorcycles please.)

Let us hire an outside and unbiased firm and see what we can do to curtail this $31 million plus being spent on the Fire Dept. It is hard to believe in this age and time when other cities are reducing Fire Dept. personnal and/or expenses, that we are adding a 10th Fire Station. I guess next year the Fire Dept. will need $35 million or $700 per HOMEOWNER on our real estate tax bills. This is almost as much as our HOME INSURANCE. With each of us normal people having HOME INSURANCE we don't need OVERKILL fire protection. Most fires can be avoided if we are a little more careful in what we do. And everyone should have a smoke detector and fire alarm in their home imposed by city ordinance. The FFs should be out checking every home instead of playing video games, surfing the net and cooking gourmet meals if they truly cared about the Naperville Residents and their safety. This would make Naperville safer and need less FFs. But of course, why would the FFs want to make Naperville Safer and lose their JOBS and PENSIONS. They won't, therefore they must be ordered to do so by the City Manager after being directed to do so by our City Council.

Lastly, keep in mind Oak Brook has NO real estate tax. And we pay $700 dollars per household just for ONE DEPARTMENT...the FD.... OUCH!!! They chose to lay off 14.75 employees in that Village of 9000 rather than impose a new real estate tax after sales tax crumbled in that town due to the recession/depresssion. I only wish our City Fathers would care more about us than THEMSELVES, their SALARIES and BIG FAT PENSIONS TO BOOT.

Anonymous 5678 on October 15, 2009 11:30 AM
Let's change this one up.
How about this? Minus politics, let's talk about the good and bad of Naperville. The bad is always easier to point out, especially from bloggers.
Good - parks, greenspace, beauty of the town
Bad - too many self-centered, self-indulged people in this town. Maybe that is everywhere, but those people sure stick out like sore thumbs here. Unfortunately, it rubs off on their kids.

_______________________

Ok Anon 5678 I'm with you. Enough politics, discussing it (and pensions I might add) is like the Matthew Broderick movie "War Games" when the computer finally realizes the futility of the game and utters the phrase, "The only winning move is not to play".

Good: Parks, Libraries, Park District programs, river walk, solid infrastructure, excellent education, kid friendly.

Bad: Congestion, Intensity of parents regarding youth sports, A small minority of people with a sense of entitlement (I say minority because a vast majority of people don't exhibit this behavior, but the minority makes the number seem quite large). Aggressive and competitive nature / behavior.

I agree that there are too many self centered people, and while I included this somewhat in my "Bad" list. I submit to you that these types of people are unfortunately universal. Every major metropolitan area in the U.S. has suburbs that are known as blue collar, white collar, snobbish, standoffish, entitled, rich / poor, etc. etc. Made up of people with all kinds of personalities and traits.

When I mention cities such as Winnetka or Kenilworth, Oak Brook and Hinsdale, Naperville, Bolingbrook, Aurora, Lemont, Chicago Heights, Summit, Olympia Fields, Gary In. it invokes a certain belief about the inhabitants. Other than Naperville and Aurora I don't know anyone who actually lives in any of the cities I mentioned, but I have a preconceived notion of each of these cities residents.

Naperville is not utopia (no place is), and I happen to like it here and am proud to say I live here. I don't know what the exact number is, but I will say that I believe 90% + of Naperville's people are good people, law abiding, friendly, courteous, and responsible.

CIJ wrote:

I think you need to apologize for your constant accusations that there was any attempt to EXAGGERATE or INFLATE. There was not ever an attempt to EXAGGERATE or INFLATE. Only an attempt to seek the truth! Obtain the facts!

Apologize for what? I apologized for my mistake a couple of weeks ago when I said you were inflating your estimates of the current pension deficit. I never disputed your pension deficit numbers after that point until yesterday, when you suddenly rolled the IMRF deficit into your estimate to "prove" that you were right all along, and lit into me for an argument I had long since rescinded. If you can provide a link to a post on this or any other topic on Potluck where it's clear that your estimates include the IMRF deficit, then please do so. I've already provided excerpts from your own posts in your own words that explicitly contradict the argument you're now advancing, though, so if there is confusion here about what you meant, the fault is entirely yours. If an apology is in order here, that apology should come from you.

As for my accusation that you inflate numbers and exaggerate, that is a general observation, not a specific comment about your estimates in the growth in the pension deficits this year. I believe I am not the only person who's leveled this criticism at you this, and it is not a new accusation. It goes way back. I'm not going to detail other instances of it right now, because that risks re-opening a whole bunch of cans of worms that are probably best left alone. I did give one example earlier on this thread, though---the $100K pension. Two other bloggers also thought this was misleading. But rather than go back and rephrase your argument using a more reasonable number of what the average NDP or NFD officer retiring today might get, you chose to launch a convoluted defense of why it’s okay to use a figure an officer who retires at some unspecified date in the future. Whatever.

-JQP

By Citizen Investigative Journalist on September 27, 2009 1:06 PM

f. Now the reason I am throwing around this conservative $100 million number instead of $131.4 million dollars is these Pension Funds(Referring to P and F only...inserted) made some interest from the Government Bonds and dividends in Common Stocks they own which may or may not be netted against this $20.2 million in losses. It was not clear in the vague city report which appears to be UNAUDITED and UNAUTHENTICATED.

9. I stand by my statement

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CIJ wrote:

The P @ F Pensions are nearing $100 million in pension liability deficits.

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that you attempted to discredit and mock. Notice I used the words pension liability deficits and not current cash or stock market pension losses. I chose my words carefully as I always do.

10. I am not an ACTUARY or a FORENSIC ACCOUNTANT and can not give you exact numbers with 100% certainty. I can only give you rough estimates obtained by the use of a $5.99 calculator from Walgreens.

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JQP,

I made this prediction ONLY for the P @ F Pension Funds on Sept. 27 that being their pension liability deficits were "NEARING $100 million." I was very clear and precise.

It in fact came in at $96.2 million which is as close as a LAYMAN can get to "NEARING $100 million dollars" without having all the tools and data at his or her disposal. ( I also suspect the Auditors and Actuarials who are paid handsomely by the city probably tweaked the numbers to make the city look a little better and not reach the 100 million mark which would stick out like a SORE THUMB!)

Clearly, I realized after making my initial projections there were mitigating factors. Such as some of the items I mentioned in "f." above. Others I mentioned elsewhere in my numerous posts were that Government Bonds and Treasury Bills have an inverse relationship to interest rates. Since interest rates tumbled ferociously, the market value of the Govt Bonds and T Bills rose reducing the massive losses in the Mutual Funds and Common Stocks. The stock portfolio took a bath much worse than $20.5 million....this was the net investment loss that included rising Bonds and T-Bills and possibly AA rated Municipal Bonds. Risky Muni Bonds fell in price even if interest rates rose if there was a perceived or real risk of Chapter 9 bankruptcy. They could become worthless if that happens so they most probably will not go up inveresely with interest rates as safe T-Bills and US Govt. Bonds unless they are tiple AAA rated which is rare these days and times. (The USA can not go bankrupt since it can print all the money it wants but it can make the USA dollar near worthless if it pounds the presses too often....we also borrow very heavily from China and Japan to deal with our across the board budget deficits and government pensions in all layers or government....I am not just picking on Naperville.)

Later when I realized that the City of Naperville had a substantial deficit in the IMRF which I was not aware of, I added 20 million for that to my 100 million estimate for the P & F Pesnions Funds and came up with the estimate of $120,000,000.

The total for all 3 Pension Funds was $126.2 million. I was at $120 million and very close again.

First, Mr. Public you were attacking me viciously for INFLATING and EXAGGERATING.

When the numbes were close, you changed your STRATEGY and began attacking me because my ESTIMATES in your mind were not as close as they should have been....really lol at your utter silliness and nonsense. Do you expect an ESTIMATE to be EXACT after initially calling it UTTER SPECULATION???

As soon as you lose an ARGUMENT you change an ARGUMENT and you have people like TB riding your coat tails because he wants to believe your MISREPRESENTATIONS since his brother is a FIREMAN, soon to be collecting a Big Fat Pension and his father is an IRS Agent also collecting a Big Fat Govt. Pension.

What you did, JQP, is in fact take everything out of context and try to create a different scenario. You were propagandizing and grandiozing like City Officials do. Who is going to believe you when everything is documented in black and white with BOLD everywhere? It is all documented in the ARCHIVES of the Naperville Sun.

I explained in much detail my original estimate and studied it further when I realized a huge portion of the portfolio was not stocks.

One thing that can not be disputed is that those who pick our Common Stocks are not very good at what they do. They picked extremely bad stocks and destroyed the P and F Pension Fund Portfolios. If a larger percentage of the portfolio was in stocks, the Pension Funds would have been gone.....wiped out...tsunamied.

Keep in mind losing $20.5 million now, deprives us of $164,000,000 to pay employees when they retire in 30 years based on a 7.2% rate of return. The City uses a 7.5% rate of return which would make the number possibly at $170,000,000. (I used the 7.2% so I can use the "rule of 72" without pulling out my $5.99 Walgreens calculator which is almost overheating these days....lol...)

CIJ

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I guess that didn't work.

Can't get away from politics apparently after we had at least three designated political blog topics in the past month.

Let's change this one up.

How about this? Minus politics, let's talk about the good and bad of Naperville. The bad is always easier to point out, especially from bloggers.

Good - parks, greenspace, beauty of the town
Bad - too many self-centered, self-indulged people in this town. Maybe that is everywhere, but those people sure stick out like sore thumbs here. Unfortunately, it rubs off on their kids.

Why does this sound familiar.

WSJ article on the threatening collapse of NYC's economy: Was Kurt Russell a profit?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704107204574472892886003298.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_sections_opinion

*During the boom, unions received pay raises at 3x the rate of Inflation.

*Public expenditures grew by 40%, while unfunded pension obligations increased dramatically.

*The revenue assumption was that the "wealthy" could be taxed without limit to pay for a "Luxury City" that all could enjoy.

*Increasingly-unsustainable government taxes; the collapse of the Ponzi Schemes, "too big to fail banks", apparently rigged markets, and the Federal Govt induced Clinton, Rubin, Bush, Barney, Fannie, Freddi, Community Reinvestment, ACORN, Goldman Sacs, Social Justice (repackaged Marxism) housing bubble bust has led to a collapse of the tax base.

*The Public Sector employees, many of whom live in NYC are now so numerous that they control the elections by simply turning out to vote. They vote themselves pay raises.

*Small business, entrepreneurs, and the wealthy have been targeted by the City and the Unions that control it as the cash cow for maintaining the life style of the public sector unions and connected vendors. Needless to say, the cows are packing and leaving town as the knives are sharpened. The tax base is hollowing out, fast.

".......Meantime, the city's fixed pension obligations to its workers—which Albany hikes in good times and bad—have hit a projected $6.6 billion at last count, up from $1.6 billion in 2003. Barring a sharp recovery, the city's tax-funded pension contributions are likely to double or triple over the next five years, with higher taxes on a declining private sector picking up the tab.

"We don't want to lose people who work on Wall Street," Mr. Bloomberg said recently, neatly summing up the dynamic in which high taxes on the rich pay for a padded public-sector work force while squeezing out entrepreneurs. "We need the tax base. Our teachers need to get paid." .................."

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What's the solution?

Washington needs to print more money, borrow more money against the future of our children and "stimulate" the: unions, community activists, welfare class and don't' forget the connected vendors.

“One thing the Napergate Man taught me is if you know you're right and everyone feels you are wrong, stick to your guns and beliefs and truth will eventually prevail.”

This is admirable if you’re talking about something of conscience. When used with regard to a factual discussion, it’s just being stubborn and closed-minded.

T.B.

To Justin, no I don't believe everything I hear on TV or read on the internet. I also wouldn't jump off a cliff if everyone else was doing it. But, I believe the suggestion that CPS students should enroll at higher ranked schools has come up before. I do think it was a publicity stunt on behalf of Jackson, and thought it was a topic that might generate some discussion on this blog. I also have to agree with another poster, that money isn't the solution to violence. If I had the answer and could implement it, I would probably win the next Nobel Peace Prize.

If people from Chicago want to come to our schools let them as long as they are willing to pay taxes just like the rest of us. Jesse's way is just another form of a hand out. Inner city kids are given no more from taxpayers than the rest of us. Some of us are just more willing to put time into our community to keep it prospering.

And while we are at it, maybe its time our SD perform an audit of sorts to see how many students we do have in our schools who are not residents.

JQP

I thought so too. But, I didn't have time to go back and re-read his posts.

Oh, JQP,
there you go, all slicy and dicey again!

John Q. Public,

What you are describing is an analysis in progress where I was making adjustments up or down depending on what I learn as I proceed.

The bottom line is I was very close and right in the ball park no matter how you slice it or dice it. The IMRF did enter into my final equations when I realized a deficit was there and was the reason I jumped up my estimate from 100 million to 120 million.

One thing you are ignoring is that I was not trying to INFLATE any numbers. I was just trying to nail the accurate number which obviously is not an easy task but I sure came close with my numbers. I am sure you would agree here.

I think you need to apologize for your constant accusations that there was any attempt to EXAGGERATE or INFLATE. There was not ever an attempt to EXAGGERATE or INFLATE. Only an attempt to seek the truth! Obtain the facts!

An attempt to put pressure on the City to stop hiding the numbers and disclose them.

Experienced is the one that noticed the City was not being due diligent regarding FULL DISCLOSURE and went after them justifiably whichever way he could.

I know you believe he is a credible person.

He has been relatively quiet compared to the past but I suspect he is very disappointed with City Officials and trying to control himself.

I believe they know who he is and it is not easy to blast away as easily once you are identified.

Anyway, I wrote some on the sales tax thread to Experienced that may shed some light on my thinking and why I believe the REAL numbers may even be a bit higher.

CIJ

CIJ,

Here's what you said in an earlier post on this topic (emphasis mine):

We were told by 2033 we must have a 0 deficit and yet we managed to double our pension liability deficit from $61.4 million to probably over $120 million in one year.

"$61.4 million to probably over $120 million in one year." Got that? I'll say it again: "$61.4 million to probably over $120 million in one year."

Then, of course, there is this post where you go into more detail about the $61.4 million and the $120 million and even the $130 million (See? I cut you some slack in my last post by not even mentioning the $130 million estimate), with no mention whatsoever of IMRF. In fact, the character sequence IMRF don't even appear at all on this top until your post earlier today. There is plenty of mention of the police and firefighter pensions, as well as the figures $61.4 million and $120 million, though.

Need more? How about this post from another blog topic? It's a good one. It should be one of your favorites, since it's the one where you caught my pension loss/acrued liability error. You DO mention the IMRF in this post, so I guess I was wrong to say it was never talked about. The problem is, you make it pretty clear that you are NOT including the IMRF deficit in your $131 million estimate (again, emphasis mine):

e. To the best of my knowledge the acutuaries have not come up with the latest exact numbers yet. What I did was very conservative when I added the $20.2 million in losses to last years actual pension liability deficit of $61.4 million. I probably should have added $36 million in deficits for the police and maybe $34 million for the fire fighters who lost exactly ($9,808,248) before factoring in investment fees to the fund managers. Thus based on these 2 numbers we would have an increased pension deficit liability loss of 70 million which would put us at $131.4 million in accrued pension liability deficits. (Keep in mind I are not talking about or including the City of Naperville IMRF which has significant problems of its own including a sizabel pension deficit.)

To be fair, you did adjust your estimate down to $100 million later in that post. But then you said this in a later post:

Based on our healthy debate, I will feel comfortable adjusting the ACTUARIAL ACCRUED LIABILITY PENSION DEFICIT from my orginial estimate of 100 million, UPWARDS to 120 million. Would you buy that, Mr. PUBLIC for now until the City Actuaries release the actual numbers? I think this is a reasonable ballpark estimate.

Now, I have no idea what I said that made you feel comfortable adjusting your estimate to $120 million, but it couldn't have had anything to do with the IMRF, because I didn't mention it, and neither did you.

There is no slicing in dicing going on here. These are your own words. They are not taken out of context. And they completely refute what you said about your pension deficit estimates in your last two posts.

-JQP

Lets change the subject if this is an open topic. I'm sick of politics. What percentage of people in Naperville have had plastic surgery? It has to be pretty high.

Mr. Public,

I have talked about the Police, Fire and and IMRF pensions singularly, in double and together many times.

If you followed this debate carefully my original 100 million number was only for the Police and Fire Pension Funds.

When I used the 120 to 131.4 million numbers I was including all 3. I did discover from memory that we had about a 12.9 million IMRF pension liability deficit and I added that to my final and total calculations using extrapolations just like I did with the other 2 pensions. They are all City Pension Funds and should be included in an Acrrued Actuarial Pension Liability Deficit for the City of Naperville and are in fact included both by the City, Auditors and myself. Forensic Accountant Experienced disagrees with the City, the Auditors and myself and feels the IMRF should not be included but he is entitled to his own opinion and admits it is just his OPINION. So maybe you got him confused with me on that issue since so much has been written on this important topic.

The State says we have nearly a 30 million pension liability deficit in the IMRF and wants the city to also get rid of it by the year 2033 just like the other 2. So what is the difference and why should it not be counted??? The city knows it has to make up this deficit and not the state. Even when a pension fund is pooled at the State Level each city has to pay its proportionate share based on its proportionate pay-outs.

I explained my extrapolations in detail in at least one prior blog.

Again you are slicing and dicing again. For not being an ACTUARY no matter how you slice it and dice it, I was in the BALL PARK which I said I would be.

I think you are being very DISINGENUOUS for not wanting to give me credit for my work on a 5.99 calculator from Walgreen's without any EXPERTISE....just using some common sense and a little extrapolation and logic.

I also think you are forgetting you have been using my AAPLD estimate that turned out very close even by your own ADMITTANCE, to allege I exaggerate, inflate, and overstate the numbers. An apology should be forthcoming on your part for the numerous mistatements you made about me.

At least I had the courage to attempt an estimated calculation and see how close I can come. You did not even attempt an estimate but just attacked me relentlessly for trying and accused me of wildly speculating. If I was just wildly speculating, my numbers could never be this close no matter how you try to distort them or misinterpret them.

The other numbers I used lately were direct numbers from city financial reports so you can not have possibly been refering to them when you made your wild speculations that I INFLATE...lol...

So basically you are being a BAD SPORT and won't admit your false allegations that "I inflate" are all hot air.

I think Mr. Public, you need to provide some solutions instead of constantly attacking others who try to provide solutions.

Let's forget for a second how close I was in my estimate....that is now irrelevant.

What is relevant and important is the AUDITORS for the City have now admitted that we almost doubled our AAPLD in one year. Imagine doubling it after it already had been horrible.

Doubling it after the State ordered us to begin reducing it!

Last year I thought we had a problem and so did many other bloggers.

Well, this year the Tsunami finally arrived and we have a $126.2 million pension liability deficit just for this City of Naperville.

Just to try to comprehend how bad the situation is:

If we were to get rid of the Police AAPLD just by itself, the police would need to donate their entire salaries for 3 years and 4 months. Yes, 100% of their GROSS salaries before any taxes or deductions to get rid of their own deficit.

Currently they are only contributing 9.91% per year. This should tell you that it will be IMPOSSIBLE to ever catch up and make this system work in its current format.

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Here are some changes that we maybe should consider to trying to make the broken Pension System functionable again:

1. Contributions by police officers should be increased to at least 25%

2. Contributions by residents remain at about 25%

3. Obtaining returns on investments that average 7.5% as the Pension Plans factor in.

4. Raises of 6% including for inflation are no longer given as has been used for these AAPLD estimates until the AAPLD is eliminated.

5. Police Officers are required to work till age 60 permanently.

6. Pensions are reduced to 50% of final and highest salaries and only to be paid once a retiree hits the age of 60.

7. New police officers are started at 45k a year.

8. Leave existing salaries for police officers as is if we must because of prior agreements and union contracts....but at least freeze them until the AAPLD is wiped out completely to where it is 0.

These are just some possibilities that come quickly to mind as I think out loud and out of the box. Some can be controlled at the city levle and some must be controlled at the state level.

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OK, Mr. Public, why don't you try to propose something original instead of constantly attacking my ideas, solutions and decent if not exact estimates.

Are you capable?

Give it a shot!

Thanks,

CIJ

Don't the Democrat controlled Chicago Schools get more money per student than Naperville schools? So even if Obama doubles down on the money going into the Chicago Public Schools, they will still suck.

I guess the Marxists are wrong, money isn't everything.

Until someone comes up with a permanent solutions for the gangs and gang members, the problems with the schools is insoluble, Al Queda might as well run their neighborhood.

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Here is a Sun Times article from yesterday regarding Jesse's comments about busing the students to Naperville. It doesn't specifically say Neuqua, but does say, "if they have to be bused farther away, why not bus them instead to a top high school in Naperville.

CIJ,

There are two problems with your October 14, 2009 4:26 PM post (okay, at least two):

1) Even though I thought it was still a bit high, I have not been disputing your $120 million estimate of the pension fund debt ever since you called me out on the I made error a couple of weeks ago when I confused last year's pension fund losses with the resulting increase in accrued liability. I quickly admitted my mistake, apologized, and have not commented on your use of the $120 million figure ever since. So, since I have not been disputing your numbers, these newly announced figures do not prove me wrong---the more so since:

2) Since when are we including the IMRF accrued pension liability in this discussion?????? I can point to a couple of posts you made in this topic alone where you talk about the deficit increasing from $61.4 million last year to $120 million this year. This $61.4 million figure was only for the NPD an NFD pensions, so it is very disingenuous of you to now roll in the IMRF deficit and declare that your estimate was right all along!!!! In fact, the new total accrued liability deficit is $96.4 million, not far off from your original estimate of $100 million, but significantly lower than the $120 million figure you've been throwing around lately.

-JQP

And if we have a deflationary effect of the US dollar, guess what that does to the pension liability :) Woops.

Oops, I stand corrected. I assumed this was a suburban legend with roots similar to "Kids are bussed in to Waubonsie Valley from Cabrini-Green." At any rate, I doubt you'll be seeing anyone from Fenger at any Naperville high school anytime soon.

By John Q. Public on October 14, 2009 2:03 PM

And you don't seem to understand that it is the job of actuaries to take all of this into account, both when they calculate the accrued pension liability and when they calculate the contribution amount needed every year to offset this liability.......blah, blah and more blah....

-JQP

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Mr. John Q. Public,

I do understand and it is you who does NOT understand. The numbers were just published by Forensic Accountant Experienced today on another thread and the ACTUAL AAPLD provided by the ACTUARIES is smack in the middle between my lowered conservative estimate of $120,000,000 and my initial higher estimate of $131,400,000 both made on this Blog Site repeatedly. The median between my high and low estimates is $125,700,000. The actual number from the experts is $126,239,633. My estimated median figure came within .0042727 of nailing the actual number.

I do not know what inspires you to continue destroying the tiny remnants of your reputation speaking of subjects you are clueless about. Obviously, when you stopped riding the coat tails of Forensic Accountant Experienced when he turned on the City for DISCLOSURE REASONS you came unglued rather quickly....you really should of stuck with him. He knew how to pull his head out of the sand at the appropriate time and avoid the upcoming tsunami.

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Municipal * Police * Firefighters' Retirement Pension Pension

Actuarial accrued liability $ 128,284,945 $ 121,570,634 $ 112,222,135
Actuarial value of plan assets 98,292,751 68,738,434 68,806,896

Unfunded actuarial accrued liability

(UAAL) 29,992,194 52,832,200 43,415,239

Funded ratio (actuarial value of plan assets/AAL) 76.6% 56.5% 61.3%
Covered payroll (active plan members) 54,644,370 15,997,712 16,253,897
UAAL as a percentage of covered payroll 54.9% 330.2% 267.1%

Link to verify:

http://naperville.il.us/emplibrary/FY09CAFR.pdf

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Police Actuarial Accrued Pension Liability Deficit = 52,832,200

Fire F Actuarial Accrued Pension Liability Deficit = 43,415,239

IMRFs Actuarial Accrued Pension Liability Deficit = 29,992,194

Total liability for these 3 City Pension Funds is: = $126,239,633

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You have been hounding me for weeks, Mr. John Q. Public, for daring to make a conservative estimate of $120,000,000 dollars for the ACCRUED ACTUARIAL PENSION LIABILITY DEFICIT for the City of Naperville.

I told you it was conservative and I used a $5.99 Walgreen's calculator to compute it.

You told bloggers for weeks I am nothing but a speculator, inflator, overstater and exaggerator.

Sorry, John Q. Public, but you were wrong once again. You never seem to want to miss an opportunity to be wrong!

Your continued daily attacks on me are simply diminishing your credibility. The gang mentality of those who join you does not bring the truth out either.

The truth evenutally comes out with data, facts and FOIAs to uncover what the City of Naperville attempts to hide.

One thing the Napergate Man taught me is if you know you're right and everyone feels you are wrong, stick to your guns and beliefs and truth will eventually prevail. I think his words of wisdom have paid off. Maybe that is why I spent some time studying him at Nichols Library. At least I learned something from that library since I pay a nice sum of taxes to it. Maybe, we should keep it open after all, while trying to curtail salaries and expenses a little better. The librarians there are extremely polite, knowledgable and helpful.

****************************************************************************************************************************************

PS. And many thanks to Forensic Accountant Experienced who pounded the pavements in both Dupage and Will Counties and even filed an FOIA Request which helped verify what I have been saying for a long time. It is time for bloggers to learn from F.A. Experienced and do some research instead of believing City Propaganda as if it was the Bible. He did not trust them and look at the mess he forced them to come clean on. May God Bless him!

****************************************************************************************************************************************

Moderator Magee,

I thought the Naperville Sun was working on this new Pension Disaster. I think between Experienced and I, all the research and analysis has been done. A nice article educating the residents would be greatly appreciated and needed.

Let us hope your reporter will have an easier time educating your readers than I have had educating your bloggers, the majority of whom appear to be very CLOSE MINDED!

Thank you!
CIJ

Citizen Investigative Journalist on October 14, 2009 12:48 PM
In summary most bloggers do not seem to understand the power of raises over 30 years, the influence of promotions over 30 years, and the exponential effect of 3% guaranteed pension increases over 30 years.

_____________________________

CIJ, I think many of us do understand the power of raises and promotions because we are living it. You are the one who just now seems to be grasping financial principles such as the "rule of 72" which is surprising of someone who trades stocks. What many of us don't buy into is your explanation of future events. You keep telling us what will happen in the future with guaranteed increases. What you fail to account for is that many / most things are subject to this increase as well. A loaf of bread, a new car, a home, even taxes will all be increasing by potentially similar amounts - along with our own salaries. (arguably not guaranteed, but certainly will not stay the same). If you are going to talk about what the value of the pension will be in 30 years, you should compare it to future costs and not comment on it in today's dollars!

So while pension obligations continue to increase let me ask you a simple question. If I invest $1,000 today in an S&P 500 mutual fund, what do you guess its value will be 30 years from now? You claim to have a million dollar home, would you be happy if it was still worth only 1 mm in 30 years?

Justin on October 14, 2009 11:40 AM
"However, I also heard that Jackson was suggesting that since the Altgeld students were now being bused, why not bus them to Naperville so they could attend Nequa Valley. Why would he think that is okay?"

Diane, do you actually believe everything you hear? Do a simple Google News search. I find no record of him saying that anywhere. This is how dumb rumors get started.

_______________________________

Here is a Sun Times article from yesterday regarding Jesse's comments about busing the students to Naperville. It doesn't specifically say Neuqua, but does say, "if they have to be bused farther away, why not bus them instead to a top high school in Naperville.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/1821921,w-fenger-jesse-jackson-101309.article

I guess the only question is which high school was Jesse referring to when he said Top?

CIJ wrote:

In summary most bloggers do not seem to understand the power of raises over 30 years, the influence of promotions over 30 years, and the exponential effect of 3% guaranteed pension increases over 30 years.

And you don't seem to understand that it is the job of actuaries to take all of this into account, both when they calculate the accrued pension liability and when they calculate the contribution amount needed every year to offset this liability. Any debate about pensions can thus be based on present salaries and pension amounts.

-JQP

Justin,
Remove Nequa from your search, insert Naperville.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/1821921,w-fenger-jesse-jackson-101309.article

By Anonymous on October 14, 2009 12:06 AM
CIJ - you stated that the current pension system effectual gives each retiring police officer 6-8 million dollars (from your previous post - "In essesnce we are giving our city employees 6-8 million dollars each when they retire". This is blatanely misleading and untrue. Even if a retiring officer were to collect a $100k pension for 30 years, this would be $3,000,000 plus some increases for inflation etc

========================================================================================================================================

Anonymous,

The problem you and others are having is your are not understanding what the required 3% annual increase does to a pension. It doubles it in 24 years. So a 100k pension, is 200k after 24 years, and roughly 240k after 30 years. These increases are guaranteed by our CONSTITUTION. If you factor them in you begin to understand my estimates.

Keep in mind I am forecasting 30 years out.

A cop starts today at 60k. If he were to get 4% increases he could be making double that in 18 years or 120k. At the 30 year mark he will be at $192,124 and his pension will be $144,093 in his first year of retirement or 75% of his final and highest salary.

Now at 3% increases once he receives his PENSION, which is required by the Constitution, he will be at double that or $288,186 at the 24 year mark of his retirement. At the 30 year mark, he will be receiving $334,109 in annual pension benefits. This is at age 82 if he retires at age 52. I don't think I am exaggerating when I say police officers and fire fighters can live till 82. Why not? They get to retire at 52 and coast from there on to EASY STREET. Everyone is living longer because of advances in medicine, fitness and diet.

If you assumed his average pension for 30 years was the middle point between starting and ending, his pension average will be $239,101 or $7,173,030 for 30 years. This falls right in my range of 6-8 million.

Please explain where I am being BLATANTLY MISLEADING and UNTRUE. Words are cheap! Show some calculations and facts as I do. Who is going to believe your PROPAGANDA?

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Now what I was trying to say earlier is that if a civilian wants to have 100k coming to him in a similar fashion to guaranteed pension income upon retirement, he would need to accumulate $6,666,666 at a bank earning a rate of 1.5% in guaranteed interest to be able to obtain the 100k a PO or FF can/may obtain from a guaranteed pension fund. I was just trying to let bloggers know how much EQUIVALENT CASH in a bank it takes a civilian to obtain what a public employee receives from his PENSION. I am sorry a simple point I was trying to make can go over almost everyones head so easily and generate so much unnecessary hostility and controversy on this Blog Site.

(I used a calculator to be accurate and had a post in which I did not use a calculator deleted minutes after it was posted upon realizing it was on the high side before a single blogger even saw it....so I am not here to inflate anything as is being falsely alleged. I think the problem with every blogger is they think an 85k pension remains 85k for life and does not increase 3% a year. The problem with JQP is he does not understand the impact of annual 3% increases and thus he falsely accused me of inflating due to his apparent lack of basic mathematical and statistical skills and knowledge....it is all in black and white for anyone who chooses to listen instead of just hear.....comprehend instead of just read! My source for these 3% increases was the Chicago Sun-Times series on Pension Corruption that I read religiously and no one else apparently cared to read....great and enlightening series by the Mother of the Naperville Sun even though she is bankrupt just like the Chicago Tribune and even the Chicago Cubs now....and our City Officials want raises in these BANKRUPTCY TIMES...lol...why can't these folks get serious with us.)

These Pension Pay-Outs are really not just RICH as you describe them. They are windfall lottery wins when you compare them to what a civilian can get from his 45k saved in a 401(k) pension plan over his 40-45 year career plus his $1,000 a month in Social Security if he or she is lucky enough to get that in the future.

In summary most bloggers do not seem to understand the power of raises over 30 years, the influence of promotions over 30 years, and the exponential effect of 3% guaranteed pension increases over 30 years.

And we are being very "generous" here by making sure every police officer and fire fighter is dead by age 82. We are not factoring in that this pension will go to the surviving spouse if she lives longer. Most wives live 7 years longer than their husbands these days. So these pensions will continue for an average of 7 years after the death of a former police officer or fire fighter since the majority are men.

When you factor this in, you might even blow through my upper limit of 8 million easily.

I am not trying to exaggerate. We really do have a Pension Mess. I am simply extrapolating to the future based on what will happen to any PO or FF we hire today with a starting salary of 60k a year. Nothing more and nothing less!

That is why I am calling for new POs and FFs to be hired at 45k annually. If we can reduce salaries by 25%, we can reduce future pension pay-outs by 25%. Will this be enough to make the pension system solvent?

In my opinon it will not but it will be much better than what is forcasted to happen today based on starting salaries of 60k per year. It is a step in the right direction to end our pension deficit by the year 2033 as is being ordered by the State of Illinois.

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If we continue on our old path, our AAPLD will increase each year and we will never eliminate our deficit by the year 2033. That I can guarantee to all those who wrongfully allege I exaggerate and inflate the numbers. Again, you all believe that because you are unwilling to factor in annual raises and promotions while employed and annual 3% increases while retired and receiving BIG FAT PENSIONS.

I am sorry but you are all WRONG and I am RIGHT. I am sorry I have to REPEAT myself over and over again since many of you do not want to grasp REALITY....are in DENIAL just like the City Officials who did a great job brainwashing you over the years with their PROPAGANDA and PRESS RELEASES which you fell for hook and sinker. The numbers bear out what I am saying.

Almost every blogger has his head stuck in the sand as if the sand will never move. Sand is not Concrete. It really does shift from time to time. Please pull your heads out of the sand and drink some ICE CHILLED COFFEE to help you all chill out. Something to help awaken you folks out of the COMA that you share with City Officials. If you don't pull your heads out of the sand, the Big Tsunami will come and finish you all off. Trust me! Be wise!

Thank you,

CIJ

"However, I also heard that Jackson was suggesting that since the Altgeld students were now being bused, why not bus them to Naperville so they could attend Nequa Valley. Why would he think that is okay?"

Diane, do you actually believe everything you hear? Do a simple Google News search. I find no record of him saying that anywhere. This is how dumb rumors get started.

To Diane G,

I also applaud Jesse Jackson for taking the time to ride the bus in an effort to bring attention and add adult supervision to a problem situation. However, I don't agree with his suggestion that Altgeld students be bussed to Neuqua for two reasons. Number one, NVHS and WVHS have population problems and that is why MVHS was built - to alleviate overcrowding. Why would you change district boundaries, build a third high school, and then bus in more students to an already crowded school? And reason number two, I don't think students outside the district should benefit from what that district has to offer unless they are taxpayers, pay into that particular district, and live within the district's boundaries. The only time I can see bussing from outside boundaries to be a feasible solution would be if a district is experiencing a shortage in attendance and is thus able to accomodate additional students.

National and Personal Debt Clock

We are in deep trouble and getting deeper or why the dollar continues to collapse. If the US were to apply for membership in the EU we would be turned down based on our national financial numbers failing the test and getting worse.

www.usdebtclock.org

"this game of dicing and slicing"

also known as "this game of holding people accountable for the numbers they insist are correct, which are regularly shown to be, ummm... estimates"

different things, surely.

On a different topic, last night I heard the Rev. Jesse Jackson rode the bus with students of Fenger HS. I applaud him for that. If more supervision or attention is needed to "keep the peace" then I think that's fantastic. However, I also heard that Jackson was suggesting that since the Altgeld students were now being bused, why not bus them to Naperville so they could attend Nequa Valley. Why would he think that is okay? Certainly, if the students could prove that they lived within the district (and NVHS's) boundaries, then they would have every right to attend NVHS. However, if they don't live here then they shouldn't go to school here. It's that simple. I wouldn't insist (and I don't think it would be allowed) that my daughter attend school at a CPS school just because I wanted her to attend there (for convenience or whatever reason).

CIJ wrote:

So where am I exaggerating, Mr. Public with my example whose purpose was really to show what it cost to pay 100k in pension to a police officer or fire fighter. It was simply an example to make a point. I was not saying this was the amount they will be receiving in CONCRETE.

And my point is that you could have made your point with a more reasonable $60K pension, except that the resulting numbers---if were to accept your calculations as accurate---wouldn't have been quite so scary.

-JQP

This is yet another blog about CIJ's agenda and arguements with other bloggers. While s/he states there are numerous comments on this site about hime rule, it doesn't mean everyone is agreeing with his/her take. It is tiring to see so many posts regarding: pensions, McMansions, conspiracies, the Napergate man, et al. If you are so unhappy with Naperville, CIJ, no one is making you stay here. You seem miserable here. Instead of playing Chicken Little, why don't you move to your Nirvana once you find it? Then you can tell them how to run their town.

GJC –

Your post on 10/13 @ 2:25 PM was right on the money. Too bad I see it fell on deaf ears.

**********

OJ –

I don’t think DC is saying the recession is over to motivate people, though I do believe that the economy relies heavily on confidence and perception. If you tell people that the economy sucks (like this administration did for the first six months in office), then it will. But it’s much harder to turn around after it’s already bad. It’s like causing a run on a bank and then trying to convince people the bank is solvent. They don’t want to take the risk and will pull out their cash anyways.

There are two things DC can do in the recession—they can get things moving in the right direction, or they can just convince us that things are moving in the right direction even if they’re not. I suspect there’s more of the latter going on here than the former, in part to cover up the fact that the stimulus bill hasn’t worked as we were told it would.

As for pensions, the feds long ago (20+ years) went to a greatly reduced pension system which incorporates a 401(k)-type option and also Social Security benefits (and taxes). While not perfect, this is a good starting point and greatly reduces the future burden of the pension plans.

You want to talk about the biggest Ponzi scheme ever? It’s called Social Security. Any “investment” or “savings” plan run on the Social Security model would be shut down by the government as being a fraud.

**********

JQP –

You don’t want CIJ’s respect?!? Say it isn’t so.

T.B.

By John Q. Public on October 13, 2009 10:34 PM
CIJ wrote,

What I find disagreeable is your need to inflate numbers, says JQP.
This is a very serious and untruthful allegation.

A Fire Officer or Police Officer retiring with a 100k annual pension after 30 years of service, needs 6,666,666 dollar put in a bank for us to sustain his pension at current interest rates.
And how many retired Naperville firefighters and police officers receive $100K pensions?

So tell me again how my accusation of your inflating numbers was untruthful.

-JQP

========================================================================================================================================

You are always playing this game of dicing and slicing.

Now it should be clear when I talk about 100k for police officers and fire fighters, I am talking about the FUTURE when they retire just as I am projecting where the PENSION FUND will be in 30 years. When I gave this example initially, I also stated if they got about 2 promotions which is normal in 30 years. When you deal with an accrued actuarial pension liablity deficit which I am going to start calling AAPLD you are talking about the future and not the present. The 120 million AAPLD is not a deficit that we have today but one we will have in the future when retired police officers will number 200 instead of 33. Yes, we only have 33 police officers retired today as Naperville was very small 30-50 years ago. We can handle paying them but our deficits are increasing because we are paying them more than they and us put in contributions for them....more than the stock market and government bonds made for them even though in their time everything was so much better.

Everything is much more different for an officer starting today or even 5 or 10 years ago. An officer who started 10 years ago, probably has less allocated for his retirement than both he and the taxpayers put in for him. His pension money evaporated and did not increase. The stock market and maybe even some municipal bonds chewed away at his portion as well as every officers portion.....especially the last 10 years according to Time Magazine dated Oct 19. .

This is the future implosion we are talking about. I don't know when we will have 100 retired POs and 100 retired FFs. But I suspect when this happens the Pension Funds will begin draining and emptying very quickly. I doubt the Pensions will even be around except as dry wells when we have 200 retired POs and 200 retired FFs. I think OJ can envision this as well as I can. I am not sure you can envision it as you are stuck in the present just like our City Officials. You are not worried about what our children and grandchildren will have to deal with. What they will have to bear on their shoulders. You appear to have no foresight. You are being selfish and only worrying about right now just like our City Officials. They want to milk us as much as they can and take a parachute to boot and visit Peter Burchard when the time is right and say it was not our FAULT.

My posts are long enough and it is hard to provide and repeat every tiny detail in each post to keep bloggers like you off my back.

But to be specific, when a police officer who starts at the current salary and retires in 30 years from now, he will probably be receiving easily a 100k pension if he gets one or two promotions and maybe with inflation even if he gets no promotions.

Many police officers retire making 100k a year these days with 2 promotions netting 75k pensions with 3% annual increases that get them to the 100k point very quickly. Keep in mind the starting pay is 60k. I hope you don't think they remain at 60k per year forever. Even at 2.5% raises per year, they can double their starting pay to 120k in 30 years without promotions and start their pensions at 90k per year which is 75% of the FINAL PAY. Even in these depressionary times the union is making sure they get their raises and our spineless council members can't say NO.

Yes, in 30 years they will easily get 100k and it will take $6,666,666 to pay them this amount at todays interest rates of about 1.5% which is much better than the stock market perfomance of the last 10 years which is probably a negative -3%.

One thing I was trying to do with this example, Mr. Public, is simplify the mathematics so we can have easy numbers that bloggers can comprehend without having to pull out their calculators.

For all I know if we ever have inflation like Mexico, S. America or Israel, we could be paying 200k in pension funds if not 300k. Keep in mind JQP, according to state law these pension increase 3% automatically annually.

My Poster Boy did retire with an 85k pension about 5 years ago. He is probably at $98,538 based on 3% increases for the last 5 years. This number doubles every 24 years based on the formula of 72. When my Poster Boy is 82 he will be collecting nearly 200k and not 100k....and don't forget about his second pension, JQP, also from the City of Naperville. (Speaking of exaggerating...lol..) And believe me since my Poster Boy can run marathons, he will be around at 82 healthy and collecting his 200k. More power to him but the question is where is the money going to come from....can your grandchildren afford to make 50% contributions. We, the taxpayers, are close to making 25% contributions to our FFs and POs and we can not bear the pain. And to add insult to injury they lost a great portion of our contributions that they risked in the stock market on rotten stocks like GM, CitiBank, Washington Mutual, Countrywide, and AIG.

So where am I exaggerating, Mr. Public with my example whose purpose was really to show what it cost to pay 100k in pension to a police officer or fire fighter. It was simply an example to make a point. I was not saying this was the amount they will be receiving in CONCRETE.

But I guess now that we know Mr. Robert Marshall will be collecting 200k when he is 82, we will need $13,333,333 dollars saved up for him earning 1.5% interest to be able to pay only him.

I hope you understand how the Pension Tsunami is coming. Not only are we not putting enough money in the funds, not only are the funds not earning a decent rate of return, but on top of all that insanity we are giving RETIREES 3% increases each year.

Do you finally get how serious this problem is JQP.

CIJ

CIJ - you stated that the current pension system effectual gives each retiring police officer 6-8 million dollars (from your previous post - "In essesnce we are giving our city employees 6-8 million dollars each when they retire". This is blatanely misleading and untrue. Even if a retiring officer were to collect a $100k pension for 30 years, this would be $3,000,00 plus some increases for inflation etc. It is unlikely any would ever get this kind of pension. Let's say they each average $50,000 - the amount would be $1,750,000(a rough estimate including COLA increases over the 320 yr period). This is a far cry from 6-8 million dollars. Your scenario also assumes that each of the retirees will collect for several decades. While I dont disgree that the pensions are pretty rich, the figures you continue to bandy about are misleading and seem to be more for the purpose of inflaming people than being accurate.

CIJ wrote,

What I find disagreeable is your need to inflate numbers, says JQP.

This is a very serious and untruthful allegation.

And later in the same post:

A Fire Officer or Police Officer retiring with a 100k annual pension after 30 years of service, needs 6,666,666 dollar put in a bank for us to sustain his pension at current interest rates.

And how many retired Naperville firefighters and police officers receive $100K pensions? Retired NPD officer Bob Marshall, your favorite whipping boy in city government, reportedly has an $85K pension, but he retired as a captain, which is a rank most police officers never attain.

So tell me again how my accusation of your inflating numbers was untruthful.

-JQP

By John Q. Public on October 13, 2009 5:39 PM
CIJ wrote:

What I find disagreeable is your need to inflate numbers, says JQP.

========================================================================================================================================
This is a very serious and untruthful allegation.

I never inflate numbers. I always tell the truth.

This morning when I realized I made an error in calculation that caused an inflated number, I caught it before anyone else and asked the Moderator to delete my original post which he did and replaced it with a correct version.(I am sure the Moderator will verify that if you ask him...it was on another thread.)

Inflating numbers deliberately is a stupid thing to do and would destroy my credibility. I care very much for my credibility which is important to me so I can rally support for the April 15 Tax Protest against City Hall of which I will be a "behind the scenes organizer" in order to remain anonymous. I am also trying to raise support on this Blog Site against all City Officials who think the solution to our problems in to increase taxes.

I personally don't think you know the difference between speculating and estimating, Mr, Public. You need to check their definitions in Webster's Dictionary.

When I can not get a number from City Officials, I estimate to the best of my ability.

I really don't need to inflate any numbers. They are so bad they seem inflated without me having to inflate them. Once I deflated a number from $131.4 million to only 100 million in a rough estimate to be as conservative as possible before publishing it.. Later I revised this number to 120 million upwards after discussions and complaints from YOUR HIGHNESS that the 100 million was too high!!!

I have stated on numerous occasions that I am neither an ACTUARIAL or a FORENSIC ACCOUNTANT and simply estimating to the best of my ability using a $5.99 calculator from Walgreens. If my estimate turns out to be wrong as long as I am in the BALL PARK it can not be construed as exaggerating.

The 20.2 million in lost annual pension money for the P and F Pension Funds was not inflated. It was right from the City Operating Statement and I posted the link numerous times when bloggers questioned me.

The 61.4 million accrued actuarial pension liability defict of last year was from CM Bob. I just added 2 numbers he provided on this BLOG SITE without even the use of a Walgreen's calculator and recite it from memory.

The 120 million for this year was a rough estimate and I explained it to you in detail and you seemed to apologize for not comprehending this number. It is not speculation...it is an estimate based on what is known at this point. If City Officials expected this 20 million lost to be 60 million in 30 years to pay out retired pensioners, it would create a 60 million accrued actuarial pension liability deficit. If they expected it to grow at 7.2% annually, the loss of this huge amount of money would create a 160 million AAPLD. That is because 20 million could have doubled in 10 years to 40 million. In the next 10 years to 80 million and in the last 10 years to 160 million. So bloggers have to understand this 20.2 million in losses plus 350k in investment fees the pension funds took this year were HUGE. My estimates my turn out to be very low if the FORENSIC ACTUARIALS don't pull a fast one on the city. They appear to have pulled some fast ones in the past and mislead our City Officials who appear very gullible and naive at times.

The Fund Managers were planning on Big Returns to pay out Big Pensions. A Fire Officer or Police Officer retiring with a 100k annual pension after 30 years of service, needs 6,666,666 dollar put in a bank for us to sustain his pension at current interest rates. In essesnce we are giving our city employees 6-8 million dollars each when they retire. That is how much we as Citizens would need in a bank to get 100k annual pensions till we die. This is the IMPOSSIBILITY the Napergate Man discussed 15 years ago and this is what I think OJ is talking about right now on this blog site. I really feel OJ is the only one that understands the DEPTH and SERIOUSNESS of this PENSION FIASCO at this point.

Now, you make false allegations again of the same nature against me and expect to have any credibility left on this BLOG SITE.

Believe me, the supporters of my tax cause on this blog site are increasing daily despite all the bashing I received from Anonymous Bloggers many of whom could be City Officials trying to protect their Big Fat Pensions. And keep in my mind I started my crusade when everything was gray. Not so black and white as it is today and easy to jump on the bandwagon and be on the right wagon.

Yes, OJ for one seems to have caught on how bad the situation is. Most have not grasped how bad the situation is yet and even a 2 by 4 right in the face would not work right now.

You still don't seem to have caught on, John Q. Public.

The Napergate Man forecasted this disaster 15 years ago because he knew the "outs" could never be enough from the "ins" to sustain the system as he so succintly laid it out. Why could not our public officials not figure that out? Were they banking on the 30% stock market returns of 1998 and 1999 to be permanent in their calculations of sustainability? He must have had the skill to do some calculations that are panning out. I guess growing small deficits did not bother City Officials at the time but they bothered him as he must have known it was going to lead to this IMMINENT IMPLOSION we all seem to see on the horizon these days.

You are living in dream and fantasy world, JQP.

What you don't get is that last year when the stock market was booming and the funds were rising we still accumulated an annual Accrued Actuarial Pension Liability Deficit and increased the total AAPLD.

Even when the Dow was charging to the record 14,200 during a 6 year Bull Market we were in the hole to the tune of $61.4 million in our Accrued Actuarial Pension Liability Deficits and it was not getting better....it was getting worse in a booming stock market scenario.

As soon as the market collapsed, many residents besides the Napergate Man, Former Manager Gary Menconi of the Woodridge Police Pension Fund and myself finally realized how weak the seams were on this inflated water bed. When will you realize this waterbed is going to break soon at the seams and that we will have a Pension Tsunami right in your house, JQP????

Enough said for now!

Thank you for taking the time to read my posts!

CIJ

Original Joe,
From the rational reports I've seen, the signs are actually pretty positive, though there is still some way to go. Perhaps my experience is different from most people in town, but I have seen fewer signs of impending doom or coming apocalypse, very nearly all my neighbors have slowed their spending, fewer and less complicated vacations and putting off new cars, things along those lines, but no defaults, no dire circumstances. I suppose some may be hiding financial troubles, as that is human nature, but I don't see things as being all that different or all that bad.
I think TB might be right, and the Christmas season may be telling in a number of ways, though I am not sure that it isn't more a question of confidence right now. I put off a rather major purchase this year based on uncertainty but will probably make the decision to go ahead in the next couple of months. I think that others may well be in the same situation.
Certainly a lot of people are struggling, and many jobs have been lost or not filled. But I don't see things as being all that bad right now. Perhaps I'm just lucky?

GJC and TB,

I think DC is trying to say the recession is over to motivate people to go out and spend money again. The problem is that they don't have anything left to spend. On Monday, people were buying bottled water, and food. I was the only one in the electronics department for a half an hour and I admit I only bought a $40 DVD player to replace one that was on the fritz.

The number of govt employees and the number of people on pensions and who are slated to get them in the future if things remain the same is unsupportable because the cost to pay it grows exponentially. The whole system is built like some legalized Ponzi scheme. The money doesn't exist to pay it and it's not like we can just fire off the laser printer and get more. This has bankrupted companies and government organizations. The question is whether they realize it yet or not. Many companies saw where it would lead and got rid of them decades ago. The next dozen years and beyond is not pretty.

By GJC on October 13, 2009 2:25 PM
I hate to quote myself, but: While that's fine, and one of the things that a site like this is for, it might be worth your while to consider that some of the reasons people choose to live in Naperville are the specific things that seem to drive you mad.

========================================================================================================================================

GJC,
Many people not only in Naperville but in the Nation enjoyed living it up on borrowed money and time.

People bought McMansions they could not afford with loans they could not obtain in normal times.

People were literally able to print money with Home Equity Loans after their homes ballooned in value due to IRRATIONAL EXUBERANCE.

These times are gone. People are waking up slowly.

Try to get your kid a loan to go to college these days. Try to get a Home Equity Loan. Try to get a business loan. Or try to get a loan from a bank to pay your next FAT REAL ESTATE TAX BILL.

The world has changed.

Many people fell for the trap and are unable to get out of it. They came for the good life without truly earning it. We can help them try to live some of the good life by at least keeping their taxes down.

Otherwise you will have blocks and blocks of bankrupt homes.

Residents are having a hard time paying their 2% on assessed valuation real estate tax bills. Defaults are at a record rates both in Will and Dupage County.

If you increase taxes to 3% of assessed valuations and let the fiscally irresponsible folks at City Hall have it their way, do you think FORECLOSURES and BANKRUPTCIES will decrease or increase in our beloved City of Naperville????

I mad at hell at the outlandish spending by City Officials that is taking away our quality of life in this town. And you should be, too. Don't wait to complain when you're under water and no one can hear a word you are saying. Speak up before you DROWN! Or before City Officials DROWN you! Your CHOICE, my friend!

Time is running out.

CIJ

CIJ wrote:

I guess when you don't focus on the messenger but on the MESSAGE you totally and fully agree with my message which you stated very eloquently in YOUR OWN WORDS.

This is what we need to be doing, Mr. Public. Not simply arguing for the sake of arguing.

Kudos to you finally. Keep it up now and don't go back to your slicing and dicing non-sensical ways.

OJ has gained my respect 100% and I have little doubt you will gain my respect 100% if you continue focusing on THE MESSAGE instead of the MESSENGER.

You still don't get it, do you? I've said numerous times that I agree with some of your goals---though by no by no means all. What I find disagreeable is your need to inflate numbers; to jump to conclusions based on limited to non-existent evidence; to assume that your critics have ulterior motives; to accuse others of the same faults you've always had in abundance; etc. I could go on here, but what would be the point? These and many other criticisms of your style and approach here have been stated numerous times by numerous posters, including me, all to no avail.

What you interpret right now as people coming over to your side is more a result of people feeling exasperated in these trying times and giving vent a little more to what they've always thought. Naperville is a fairly conservative town, where people pretty much don't want to pay any more in taxes than they think is absolutely necessary. The fact that so few bloggers in such a town have chosen to make common cause with you over the years should have been food for thought for you. You've been your own worst enemy.

Case in point: our recent exchange about the competence of the pension fund managers. You had insufficient evidence to support your contention that the pension managers are incompetent, and when I presented statistics that indicate that the fund losses do not seem out of line with the market, your ultimate argument was that most fund managers are incompetent! How do you win an argument with someone who says that average is really below average? And what is sadly amusing about the extent to which you went to try to win this argument is that the competence of our local pension fund manager is really peripheral to your whole argument against pensions in general.

If Original Joe now has your respect, bully for him. Winning your respect is no concern of mine, though.

-JQP

CIJ...

"Howling at the moon" is not the same as screws and bearings loose. That is suggesting your brain/intelligence is not where it should be. There is quite a difference between not agreeing with someone's opinion & attacking them personally. Howling at the moon, is stating you are just talking your talk but it is not stating you are crazy or do not have your head on right or functioning appropriately. Stating that you go on & on or beat a drum just means you are not chaning your message or responding to what has said. He is not saying You are an idiot. There is a difference.

Even when you say...

"So it is hard to believe a Professor like yourself could not track who is trying to make this personal. I always felt your strongest asset was not the English Language even though you may be an extraordinary and awesome ROCKET SCIENTIST!"

That is now attacking me personally rather than just simply saying, "I happen to disagree with you that I have attacked him." You know say something about me personally on my intelligence/abilities etc. That is not necessary or good form for discussion in my oppinion. I guess the editor can say for sure. I just said please be kinder. That is all. Even if you use the argument others are first, you should not attack back. Two wrongs do not make a right. What if now I attacked you personally & said something about your abilities because I feel you attacked me? This is why we are in the situations we are in globally.

How about a change of subject to the hot topic of the day ---- Health Care!

Anyone have any issues with the Baucus bill? Is so, why, if not, why not?

By Fed Up With The Noise on October 13, 2009 6:14 AM
CIJ - why is it that you felt the need to attack me? I did not attack you - I simply made an observation.

Also, why is it that you believe that you can attempt to denigrate me by belittling my choice of names? I did not do that to you.

========================================================================================================================================

You know and I know your handle was chosen as an attack on ME.
Change your handle. You are insulting MYSELF by saying I am making noise. I guess when I turned it on you, you realized that your handle is INSULTING.

If you don't consider it insulting, then don't be upset when I accuse you of being the TRUE NOISEMAKER.

After all, your blogs are about me and not MY MESSAGE. When will you fall in line and follow the Moderator's recommendations.

I have a right to speak about pensions and what the Napergate Man said about them 15 years ago or what Gary Menconi said about them 2 years ago. The bloggers need to understand there are intelligent people out there who forecasted the IMPLOSION way before I did.

More and more bloggers are understanding the seriousness of the City's Financial Mess and soon it will not be ONE PERSON against all Bloggers as it has been in the past. Even JQP came around and spoke very eloquently finally without beating around the bushes.

When will you come around and join us in our battle against higher taxes and government waste? We would love to have you on board. Every person that joins the campaign helps. This could be a long battle. It took the Napergate Man 10 years to get through the dense skulls at City Hall and as soon as he retired they gradually went back to their old stripes. That concerns me and shows the importance of government having a watchdog on its tails. I believe the Napergate ads were run to compensate for the Naperville Sun not willing to play the Watch Dog role at the time. It would be wonderful if the Naperville Sun stepped up to the plate and became the New Town Watch Dog. Once we learn from history and implement, there is no need to discuss how the Napergate Man managed to shake and stir things up in those days. We currently are not able to shake and stir things up in a way where we are effective...that is a FACT. City Officials are eating us up alive because there is not a Napergate Man bringing 300 residents to City Council Meetings to beat the drums. City Council meetings almost look empty to me when I attend or watch them on Cable TV. But I always do one or the other.

We may need to beat the drums for another 6.5 years to get through to City Hall Officials. Are you willing to make some NOISE on this blog site? Are you willing to help us beat the drums louder and louder? Will you show up next April 15 on the doors of City Hall and join us in the Protest of Higher and Higher Taxes. WE need to wake up more residents before we make our FINAL PUSH against City Hall.

Maybe one day we can fill City Hall as the Napergate Man was able to do. And maybe they will finally hear us and listen to us. We must be relentless in our efforts as the Napergate Man was. If he went for 10 years to get through to them we may have to go for 10 years. Are you folks blogging ready for a 10 year battle? Hopefully my 3.5 years of protesting count and we only got 6.5 years to go....lol...

Look at the HOMELESS STRIKER Mr. Huber. They tried to pretend he does not bother them but he hung in there and City Officials cracked after 8 long years. He never cracked in his PERSISTENT and RELENTLESS PROTEST. He never even flinched. And believe it or not after the ruling, he is still not flinching and not planning to move one inch....he told me so in person a few days ago. I truly admire his RESISTANCE to CITY HALL and how he stands up for his "perceived rights!"

If we are going to succeed against City Hall we must be as strong as the Napergate Man and Mr. Scott Huber. Or esle we can not succeed.(It is irrelevant that Mr. Huber may not have a "real cause." What is relevant is he believes in his CAUSE and stands steadfast even though he is mostly on "fumes")

C.I.J.
You have presented an intriguing idea when you asked' "should we abolished home rule?". I agree that Naperville has gone crazy with tax increases and I will back that up by collecting signatures to promote a referendum.

JQP –

Well said about taxes and city council salaries, but I wouldn’t hold your breath.

***********

Orig Joe –

It’s not as if anyone actually thought a Columbus Day sale would draw in hordes of people. It’s pretty much a non-event.

The real economic bellwether will be the projected dismal Christmas shopping season. If it’s as bad as everyone seems to think it’ll be, then I think the pols in DC are a bit premature in declaring the worst of the recession over.

T.B.

And, of course, I forgot something.
Home Rule gives our politicians too much power especially in issues like policy and taxation.

And home rule gives the citizenry the power to evaluate local politicians, and to make changes that are necessary in their own communities, and not within some distant and complicated state bureaucracy. Home Rule is a benefit, not an ill, as long as the citizens stand up for themselves, and make their voices heard. If they do not, it could mean that they're apathetic, but it could also mean that things are not as bad as some would have you believe.

gjc

I hate to quote myself, but: While that's fine, and one of the things that a site like this is for, it might be worth your while to consider that some of the reasons people choose to live in Naperville are the specific things that seem to drive you mad.

CIJ and others, I was not even remotely intending to attack, though as often is the case, there is an accusation that I work for the city. Never have, never would.
My point, which I will attempt to reiterate without rancor or difficult language is really quite simple. The desires of CIJ seem to run counter to why people have moved to Naperville, and why many people remain here. Many safety personnel, high taxes that support well regarded schools, libraries and social services. A lovely and vibrant downtown that draws people in for many reasons. The varied festivals and activities that go on throughout the year, all these aspects and more are reasons that people choose to make this their home.
Is it perfect here? Absolutely not, no one would ever maintain that. But after reading many of CIJ's writings, and some of those who support pieces of his ideas, I contend that if many of these things were put into place it would have the effect of changing the essential nature of the place, and would go many steps toward making it at the least just another suburb and at the worst a place to avoid. My thoughts, my opinions, no attack.
Everyone is entitled to their own set of values and beliefs, and should express them. That doesn't mean that someone disagreeing with you is attacking you. From what I understand from your writings, CIJ, I wouldn't want to live in your Naperville. As I read your writings, I do tend to think that you have a few ideas and phrases that you use and reuse, and this never-ending Napergate Man obsession is inexplicable to me.
I think that a lot of people understand that they use their taxes to buy things that they value, and that are important to them. I think that one of those things is a robust and complex fire and police program (and no CIJ, neither I nor anyone in my family has ever functioned in that area). I think that people are willing to pay higher taxes for the benefits that all of these things provide to their town, their neighborhoods and their sense of well being. I think that a good portion of those who even consider the pensions of some of these people would actually understand that the basic agreements on these topics are not local decisions, but decisions that are made at a State level.
That said, readers, what I would like to see, hear, and discuss are not wholesale screeds about eliminating entire social services, but some of the simple, smaller things that can be done that would save notable amounts of money. I quite liked the idea of charging for leaf pickup so that those who need to use this service would be the ones who pay for it, I quite like the idea that a reevaluation of the purported over-staffing of the fire department be undertaken to see if it is actually so, by people who know what they're talking about, that is, professionals.
I don't care about the concept of double dipping, and I never have. The reason for that is because if someone goes back onto a payroll, that position would be there anyway, the occupant being paid to do the job, the occupant being compensated by accruing a pension, no matter what jobs they held before.
I truly don't care about the Napergate Man, unless he becomes active in city politics again, or unless someone else begins openly publishing adverts like he did. Posting on a blog site is not the same thing at all.
I do believe in openness and transparency in government, however. I think that the city has a long way to go before they can be even remotely considered to be transparent. I do believe that tax increases at this point in time are a horrible measure to even be considering, much less recommending. I do believe that this blog site is an interesting one, and though I try to post only rarely, when I do I am trying to make a point that means something to me.
I'm sure that there is an attack somewhere in here, though going back and rereading it, I fail to see where.

By John Q. Public on October 13, 2009 1:01 PM
OJ,

Times are hard, and those who haven't lost jobs outright are dealing with pay freezes and cuts, cuts to benefits, etc. Rather than pass on the city's budget woes to the overburdened taxpayers, I think the city staff who recommended tax these increases need to bite the bullet, go back to the drawing table, and come up with a new set of proposals that includes pay cuts for city employees.

========================================================================================================================================

I guess when you don't focus on the messenger but on the MESSAGE you totally and fully agree with my message which you stated very eloquently in YOUR OWN WORDS.

This is what we need to be doing, Mr. Public. Not simply arguing for the sake of arguing.

Kudos to you finally. Keep it up now and don't go back to your slicing and dicing non-sensical ways.

OJ has gained my respect 100% and I have little doubt you will gain my respect 100% if you continue focusing on THE MESSAGE instead of the MESSENGER.

Hasn't the Moderator been preaching this for a long time? I am glad you finally decided to listen.

We can be more effective if we jointly go after the FISCALLY IRRESPONSIBLE City Officials who want to unjustifiably increase taxes instead of dickering about irrelevant personalities on this blog site.

We do need to keep beating the drums over and over again until City Officials listen. Louder and louder if necessary. We must make sure they not only hear us but listen to us. I believe we will SUCCEED...especially if the NAPERVILLE SUN joins us with an EDITORIAL condemning higher taxes and wage increases for City Employees in such a disastrous depression in which I feel the full effects have not been felt by the residents yet. Something OJ has been hinting at and I believe he is very correct.

OJ,

But I think GJC's post was specific to Naperville, which is why I pointed out in response to you that the bad economic climate is not just local. I think GJC's point is that, for all that is wrong, both locally and around the world, there is a lot that is still right about Naperville. And if that is his (her?) point, I am in agreement.

That said, I also agree with all of those who spoke against any kind of tax increase to deal with the city's current budget problems. Times are hard, and those who haven't lost jobs outright are dealing with pay freezes and cuts, cuts to benefits, etc. Rather than pass on the city's budget woes to the overburdened taxpayers, I think the city staff who recommended tax these increases need to bite the bullet, go back to the drawing table, and come up with a new set of proposals that includes pay cuts for city employees.

-JQP

P.s. I also think this would be a good time for the city council to vote to get rid of their own salaries permanently. I doubt any of them need the money, nor do I think the lure of a $10K salary is what motivates most people to run for city council in the first place. It wouldn't be a huge cost savings, but it would have symbolic significance.

JQP,

I was speaking with respect to the country as a whole. Relatives in the south, west coast and other parts of the midwest observed the same non-event by the consumers. On a whole, there's nothing left to spend, IMO, save for the barest bone necessities.

Of course people who work for the City and are reaping WINDFALL PROFITS do not want HOME RULE ABOLISHED and have their pay and pensions possibly limited to something more reasonable.

CIJ
---------------------------

How do you figure this? The pensions are created and funded under the express authority of state statute. All municipalities can enact and fund the pensions without regard as to whether they are home rule or not. As I cited previously, pension funds are expressly exempted from the property tax cap.

Original Joe,

I think the lack of response to Columbus Day sales has far less to do with local issues than national and international ones.

-JQP

CIJ wrote:

Since I have been blogging 4 accrued atuarial pension liability deficits came out and I try to beat the drums as much as I can to show inefficiencies, incompetence and legalized corruption.

Are you saying that there has been an accrued atuarial liability deficit in the pension every year, or are you saying that this deficit has increased each year? If the latter, can you document this?

And:

We were told by 2033 we must have a 0 deficit and yet we managed to double our pension liability deficit from $61.4 million to probably over $120 million in one year. That is a fact and not propaganda.

It’s not a fact. It’s speculation on your part. It might turn out to be true, but it’s still speculation.

-JQP

We should hold a tea party and begin to gather signatures. Go to the local businesses and have then ask customers to sign so they will not have to pay such higher taxes.

Get Shawn Hannity to support the process on Fox News. Come on CIJ, think big.

"All you are doing on this blog site is violating blog rules by focusing on a blogger instead of his or her message." - CIJ

Now that's the pot calling the kettle black! That was worth a good laugh. I guess I'll have to clean the spit-out coffee off my monitor....

T.B.

CIJ - why is it that you felt the need to attack me? I did not attack you - I simply made an observation.

Yes, I am quite aware the blog has a moderator - and using your own logic, if he had felt my posting was inappropriate, he would not have put it through.

Also, why is it that you believe that you can attempt to denigrate me by belittling my choice of names? I did not do that to you. Should I call you Civilian Investigative Jerk? I spoke with you with respect, There was no need for your lashing out.

As for no one posting for a while, it only took you about 10 hours to bring up the NGM, etc.

Moderator, could we just have one blog that has nothing to do with CIJ's campaign? Starting with the home rule question was a thinly veiled attempt to steer the topic right back to blah blah blah and did not fool anyone. I was really hoping that another fresh idea would be posted.

By Citizen Investigative Journalist on October 12, 2009 9:42 PM

The Napergate Man showed how powerful the Naperville Sun is by using it to his advantage to waken Napervillians through his Napergate Ads. He got 2 petitions signed each with over 3500 signatures from one location in town. I am sure we can get 5910 petition signatures if we all worked together and found a way to organize.

-------------------

The first step is to print the petitions. When will they be ready for circulation and where can we pick them up.

By One Who Values You on October 13, 2009 1:43 AM
CIJ...

GJC was very kind in their post but you said, "Otherwise you have loose screws and bearings..." you always say you are just doing it after others have said similar things to you. Here I see you doing it first. Please be much kinder to people on the blogs...show by example.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OWVU,

GJC was not kind in his post. Read it again please and try to comprehend.

1. He accuses me of beating the drums over and over again.

2. He accuses me of going on and on.

3. "Do you get that", sounds very insulting to me.

4. "Really get it," also sounds very insulting.

5. Further he accuses me of HOWLING AT THE MOON.

I look at all this as personal attacks on ME instead of simply discussing, debating or rebutting my message about HOME RULE.

He violated the Moderators' Rules about discussing the message instead of the messenger...and not for the first time either!

So it is hard to believe a Professor like yourself could not track who is trying to make this personal. I always felt your strongest asset was not the English Language even though you may be an extraordinary and awesome ROCKET SCIENTIST!

The pattern never fails. I try to open a new subject about HOME RULE and bloggers line up to attack the messenger instead of the message. It is almost like a broken record.

Where, Professor, do you ever see me starting with a blogger on a personal basis? Never say never, but I will say ALMOST NEVER!

CIJ

PS. And I did not say he had loose screws and bearings. I only said he does IF he supports government CORRUPTION and FISCAL IRRESPONSIBILITY. Let us hope he does not support either and his screws and bearings are fastened just fine. I stand by what I said, Professor!

CIJ...

GJC was very kind in their post but you said, "Otherwise you have loose screws and bearings..." you always say you are just doing it after others have said similar things to you. Here I see you doing it first. Please be much kinder to people on the blogs...show by example.

By Fed Up With The Noise on October 13, 2009 12:19 AM
CIJ - the moderator kindly asked that topics not already under discussion elsewhere be brought up here. Seems to me the point you wanted to raise was home rule. Thats great - but can we please leave pensions, Napergate Man and pensions out of this. Yes, I know they are why you want to eliminate home rule but you have already beaten that horse to death

========================================================================================================================================

Fed Up with His Own Noise,

I think you fail to understand we have a Moderator who makes the decisions. I noticed no one had blogged for a while since this OPEN TOPIC THREAD was posted and decided to take a stab at it.

If the Moderator did not think my topic was appropriate, he would have not posted it or asked me to post it somewhere else. He is not shy and has done that more than once.

He asked neither of the above.

What you need to do is raise some topics that you want discussed? You can discuss more than one topic on an OPEN THREAD and have more than one debate going at the same time.

Instead, you as many others uselessly focus on one Anonymous Blogger. Why? Don't you guys have anything better to do?

I am trying to wake people up and bring change.

I feel I am succeeding albeit at a snail's pace.

I will continue beating the drums louder and louder to wake my fellow Napervillians up.

If we don't succeed in waking them up, our FISCALLY IRRESPONSIBLE OFFICIALS will sink this town sooner than later.

The tone on this blog site has changed and is changing.

Watch and see the support I will have in one year. Watch and see what will happen at City Hall this April 15 compared to last April 15. You will see a big difference in attendance and more NPD snipers on City Hall protecting incompetence and legalized corruption.

Support is building day by day. I am confident we will wake the residents up and save this town from LEGALIZED CORRUPTION.

CIJ

PS. And keep in mind speaking of current pension liabilities is different than speaking of last years or the year before. I am sorry you don't understand my numbers are constantly changing to explain updated situations.

And since we have 13 or more posts today, people are apparently interested in abolishing HOME RULE or at least discussing it.

GJC,

Things are already bad. The music stopped a while ago but people haven't realized that they do not have a seat to sit in. The "If you build it they will come" went out of fashion last decade.

The supposed "Columbus Day" sales drew no one to come out and shop; even at the lowest of the lowest: Walmart

When the cheapest game in town can't even bring in customers, there's a larger problems than you realize.

CIJ - the moderator kindly asked that topics not already under discussion elsewhere be brought up here. Seems to me the point you wanted to raise was home rule. Thats great - but can we please leave pensions, Napergate Man and pensions out of this. Yes, I know they are why you want to eliminate home rule but you have already beaten that horse to death

By GJC on October 12, 2009 10:07 PM
You know, CIJ, I get that you have some specific things that you're interested in, and you beat those drums over and over.

========================================================================================================================================

If you want to be a true watchdog on government, you have to keep beating the drums. New budgets come out and you have to beat the drums again. Since I began blogging 4 budgets have come out so I am beating the drums on each budget which is a new budget and a new animal.

Since I have been blogging 4 accrued atuarial pension liability deficits came out and I try to beat the drums as much as I can to show inefficiencies, incompetence and legalized corruption.

I try to be specific. I think residents are waking up and you seem to be disturbed. I try to give facts obtained from Time Magazine as I did in my previous post.

All you are doing on this blog site is violating blog rules by focusing on a blogger instead of his or her message.

Unlike, yourself I am trying to save Naperville before it IMPLODES. Naperville just like the US Govt. is living on borrowed time and money. One day we will not only be Made in China but owned by China the way we are borrowing money from them to spend, spend and spend.

Here we are paying our police and fire officers pensions we can not afford. Each year our pension deficit gets worse despite ultimatums from the state to make them better. Either the City of Naperville is not listening or does not get it. We were told by 2033 we must have a 0 deficit and yet we managed to double our pension liability deficit from $61.4 million to probably over $120 million in one year. That is a fact and not propaganda. We are awaiting the exact number which should be out soon hopefully from CM Bob or Forensic Accountant Experienced who seem to know how to get it or where to look for it.

Unless something is done and people like you wake up, your real estate tax bill will soon be 4% instead of 2% of assessed valuation.

I can tell you when people with million dollar homes are told to pay 40,000 in annual taxes instead of 20,000 in taxes, they will be saying why did we not listen to CIJ when he warned us? Why did we not repeal HOME RULE when we had an opportunity? Well, I am warning and if people want to listen or not, is up to them.

The nice thing is people can check the archives one day and see who warned and was right about the IMPENDING IMPLOSION that will occur if we allow our FISCALLY IRRESPONSIBLE PUBLIC OFFICIALS to continue in their drunken spending methodolical habits.

I am amazed when people like you come on and feel comfortable with the situation. It leads me to believe that you work for the City. The only reason someone would be happy about our current FISCAL FIASCO is because he or she is being enriched at the taxpayers expense and does not care about anything but their pay check and pension check.

Anyway, for you to be happy, I am highly suspicious that you are reaping some windfall benefits from the legalized corruption of City Hall. Otherwise you have loose screws and bearings to be rooting for government that is robbing you of your retirement while they are retiring themselves at age 52 with 75% of their final and highest wages.

If you think about my statement it is reasonable and logical.

Of course people who work for the City and are reaping WINDFALL PROFITS do not want HOME RULE ABOLISHED and have their pay and pensions possibly limited to something more reasonable.

CIJ

You know, CIJ, I get that you have some specific things that you're interested in, and you beat those drums over and over. While that's fine, and one of the things that a site like this is for, it might be worth your while to consider that some of the reasons people choose to live in Naperville are the specific things that seem to drive you mad.
Fire and police and the safety we accrue from that, Home Rule allows many of the things that make the downtown better than ALL the neighbors, and give some freedoms that otherwise wouldn't be the case. It is one of the myriad reasons people want to live here. So it's ok that you keep going on and on, but consider that while we know the place isn't perfect {no place is, was or can be}, it's better for us and our families than the alternatives. If you had you way on some of these things, like repeal of home rule and etc. Naperville would be a lot less attractive to so many people.
Do you get that? Really get it?
You howl at the moon, but if you thought that things were so bad, you'd be running away as fast as you could.

Bloggers,
I am only throwing suggestions and thinking out of the box as to how we can make everything more affordable before the impending IMPLOSION of our City's Finances and most particularly its pension system.

I am one lone Citizen Investigative Journalist who can not fix Naperville by myself but wish I could.

The media has to awaken the sleeping Napervillians. The Naperville Sun has the ability to do it but so far has chosen to let them continue sleeping. I believe Opinion Editor Tim West weilds a lot of influence at the Naperville Sun. He is pro-establishment and likes this town the way it is. His wife works for the Brestal Law Firms which pretty much wrote every zoning ordinance in this town and obtained variances when they did not like what they themselves wrote.

The Naperville Sun barks at City Officials from a distance but never bites. It backs down if it is blown on.

The Napergate Man showed how powerful the Naperville Sun is by using it to his advantage to waken Napervillians through his Napergate Ads. He got 2 petitions signed each with over 3500 signatures from one location in town. I am sure we can get 5910 petition signatures if we all worked together and found a way to organize.

This just proves we can revoke Home Rule if the Naperville Sun helps us and we organize. The Naperville HOMEOWNERS Association has a great network and I believe every subdivision is a member. This would be a good place to roll the dice on eliminating Home Rule and limiting our fiscally irresponsible City Officials to only 5% of drunken spending. That really is not enough of a LIMITATION, but better than 11%

I was just reading Time Magazine today. If you had $100,000 in your 401(k) at December 31, 1998, it would have declined to $73,320 dollars by the end of December 13, 2008. And that was not even the bottom. The bottom was March 6, 2009. I bet it would have only been 50k on that day.

The stock market has lost money for average private citizens the last 10 years.

Only 50% of Americans can even afford to come up with some savings to have a 401(k). The average balance for the 50% who were able to save for a 401(k) is only $45,519 dollars. "Even worse, 46% of all 401(k)s have less than $10,000," according to Time Magazine of October 19, 2009.

To put this in perspective a Naperville Cop or Fire Fighter collects $80,000-$90,000 in pension pay-outs in 1 year assuming he was able to get one or two promotions in his 30 year career. Yes, in one year he collects more than a private citizen can save in a lifetime in his 401(k).

I guess the real broke private citizen has to pay for the real rich public employee these days so he has a great retirement at a very young age, while the private citizen continues supporting him or her while working in retirement even if his back is giving out.

Time Magazine ended by saying that retiring at 62 is no longer feasible. They suggested employees continue working an additional 5 years if they did not want to go broke during retirement. They stated greater longevity has made this possible.

Our police and fire fighters get to retire at age 52. It really seems ridiculous. If they were required to work till age 60, they could pour more money into their pension system instead of draining it to the point it has roughly $120 million in accrued actuarial pension liablility deficits that the taxpayers must plug and not the POs and FFs whom actually lost the money.

Let us hope if we can repeal HOME RULE we can begin to chop away at the unfairness in our City System. The city likes to pretend nothing is in its hands. But if they reduced the starting pay from 60k to 45k of POs and FFs, they could reduce pension pay-outs by 25% and lighten the tax burden on future generations of taxpayers.

Also if the city would require POs and FFs to remain fit and work till 60, that would lighten the tax burden at least another 25%.

There are many solutions. But our State and City Officials who are part of the Legalized Corrupt Pension System are benefitting immensely and have no interest in ending the WINDFALL, that they are also receiving along with the POs and FFs, but maybe to a slightly lesser extent, since they do not have a powerful union behind them.

Thank you.

CIJ

By Citizen Investigative Journalist on October 12, 2009 4:04 PM
Anonymous,

I guess the hang up is we need 10% of the registered voters to sign this petition to elmiminate HOME RULE so we can get it on the ballot.

How do you suggest we wake up 10% of the voters in this town to sign this petition when barely 10% vote in most local elections?
------------------

Hey this is your crusade not mine. If you want it, you have to devote some sweat equity into the process.

Even if you hired an attorney to draw up your petition, you would still have to circulate them and get the 10% requirement. It would be a waste of money to retain an attorney because you could do it yourself. And, you'd still have to get the signatures. There are 59,096 registered voters in Napeville so you'd need 5910. A little over 11,000 voted in April (18.8%).

No, Downers Grove didn't even vote on it because they didn't get enough signatures. They needed 3263 signatures and filed petitions with only 2036. An objection was filed and it never got on the ballot.

There have been 31 petitions that made it to the ballot. 4 voted to revoke home rule.

Does anyone know if Las Vegas is running a dead pool on which Cities and States will default first?

Another good dead pool would be which country will dump their dollar reserves first. If the Chinese figure out they can devastate the US worse than a nuclear attack, oops free trade already did this, by allowing the dollar to fail, I wonder if they will do it?

While I don't gamble, this is one bet I would like to make.

Anonymous,

I guess the hang up is we need 10% of the registered voters to sign this petition to elmiminate HOME RULE so we can get it on the ballot.

How do you suggest we wake up 10% of the voters in this town to sign this petition when barely 10% vote in most local elections?

Unless, we can get the Naperville Homeowners Association, the League of Women Voters, etc. behind us and the Naperville Sun making it a front page headline for a while, I don't see it realistically happening any time soon.

Do you know if Downers Grove succeeded in abolishing Home Rule?

Something tells me this sleepy town will not wake up until we file Chapter 9 bankruptcy. It seems like Napervillians are more reactive than proactive.

Since my mortgages are all paid for, I feel I will be one of the last one standing if the sh$t hits the ceiling fan. But I still do care for the sake of others.

Many people do not understand the root of their bankruptcy and foreclosure problems and simply blame themselves for all that goes wrong in their lives. They trust their government officials are doing their best for them...little do they realize their government officials are making sure they get rasises in depressions and allowing their friends and relatives to hang on pay-rolls so they can get Big Fat Pensions one day. Perfect example is the BUILDING INSPECTORS who may be twirling their thumbs in their City Hall plush offices overseeing the Western Branch of the Dupage River. They may be counting ducks as they pass by and then sheep to try to sleep due to excessive boredom.

The City Manager should at least get them out to perform leaf collection instead of advertising for leaf collectors. At least they may be able to fall asleep without counting sheep. Are these Building Inspectors unionized in a way we can't give them new jobs if we don't want to lay them off? Why can't we give them somehting productive to do during this BUILDING FREEZE?

Residents at some point have to wake up and realize City Hall is eroding their purchasing and spending powers by giving employees raises and letting certain expenses rise by greater than 11% in City Departments.

Sometimes in a sleepy town like Naperville, its best to let the residents feel the pain and hope the pain will wake them up. Pounding the pavement to get 5 or 6 thousands signatures may not be the easiest task without community support and involvement.....especially considering how we skipped fall and went right into winter!

CIJ

Well we hope someone like a cij takes this forward to the ballot,anyone think'in on that? By busting home rule we can begin to dismantle the COMBINE that holds this city hostage. The pension bomb is already in the air. These'people' will do anything to collect and grow the PENSIONS$$$ face it they do not care$$$cept about the $$$$$$,the facts are available but napervillians like to stick the head in'da sand so much,maybe a town motto in there$$$$$.

CIJ,

NEVER. GOING. TO. HAPPEN.

For as much as you bash Naperville try and remember that it is a city that people want to live in. One of the main reasons this city is such a great place is because of home rule. Naperville has faults, but it is a far better place than most.
If you think those that set the rules in Springfield can do a better job you're completely nuts! I wouldn't trust ANYONE in Springfield enough to let them hold a door open for me! Complain about Naperville all you want, but what town is doing it better?

By Citizen Investigative Journalist on October 12, 2009 1:22 PM

Maybe an attorney in town who knows how to navigate the political system can place the HOME RULE issue on the ballot for us to vote on in the next election.
----------------------

It's not that hard. You could do it yourself.

SECTION 6. POWERS OF HOME RULE UNITS

(b) A home rule unit by referendum may elect not to be a
home rule unit.
------------------------

See this article of the election code for requirement. 10% of registered voters is required per section 28-7.

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs4.asp?DocName=001000050HArt%2E+28&ActID=170&ChapAct=10%26nbsp%3BILCS%26nbsp%3B5%2F&ChapterID=3&ChapterName=ELECTIONS&SectionID=36738&SeqStart=88100000&SeqEnd=89600000&ActName=Election+Code%2E

----------------------------

wording of the downers grove proposition was:

We, the undersigned, being duly qualified and registered electors of the Village of Downers Grove, Illinois. equaling in number at least 10% of the number of registered voters in Downers Grove, Illinois who have affixed our signatures in our own proper persons to the Petition, hereby PETITION, pursuant to Article 7,
Section 6(b) of the Illinois Constitution and Section 28-7 ofthe Illinois Election Code, that there be submitted to the electors ofthe Village of Downers Grove, for approval by a majority ofthe electors in the village voting on the question, at the
General Election to be held on April 5, 2005 in the manner provided by law, the following proposition:

SHALL THE VILLAGE OF DOWNERS GROVE, ILLINOIS CEASE TO BE A
HOMERULEUMT? YES[] NO[]

----------------------

You'd need a petition that complies with Article 28 of the Election Code with the above as the wording of the propostition.

I think we should discuss abolishing HOME RULE. Home Rule gives our politicians too much power especially in issues like policy and taxation.

It would be nice if we could abolish HOME RULE and only worry about 5% tax increases each year instead of double digits.(Non-home rule towns with a few exceptions are limited to 5% annual real estate tax increases.)

Not that anyone would be happy with 5% increases but since City Officials don't listen and the town is in a coma, 5% is better than 10%.

If you had your wages reduced by 5% and the city restricted to only 5% increases, you only lose 10% of your purchasing power.

But if you had your wages reduced by 10% and city can implement 10% plus increases like last year, you would have lost 20% of your purchasing power.

One has to ask how long residents can take this ongoing reduction in devaluation of their purchasing or spending power. If you feel you can not take it much longer, let us see if we can organize a repeal of HOME RULE. Ony than can we crack our FISCALLY IRRESPONSIBLE City Officials, Staff and Council Members.

Maybe an attorney in town who knows how to navigate the political system can place the HOME RULE issue on the ballot for us to vote on in the next election.