I was raised Catholic but don't consider myself one now due to the sex scandal.
Frankly, i'm angry at the church hierarchy. Several things really bother me about it:
(1) We the laity are always supposed to submit ourselves to the moral authority of the church - yet as a lot they have acted much more evil then most of us regular folks, so I have major problems accepting the concept at this point.
(2) It seems clear to me that it's not just a few bad apples, but the whole of the priesthood starting from the top that must be encouraging this evil sub-culture. There have been hundreds of cases, in multiple countries, and each time a major attempt to cover up from above. Therefor it is logical to assume it is by design.
(3) The current pope is making me sick every time he makes a speech about the scandal. He says ridiculous things like "some of the things have not been handled well enough"..... SUM?? How about nothing...
Then he tries to shift blame from the church and blames the public, by saying it's not just the church but a problem with our whole society. He's really done very little to attack the problem, other than making weak speeches and passing off blame.

The only thing the church will ever get me to consider returning is to accept responsibility of their own evil and start making actual changes to prevent it, not just weak speeches and continual cover ups.

TB,

I think we are debating at two different levels: I am really speaking to the national level Church. I don't disagree with you at all on your 1/4 post.

Anon –

Given the church structure, I don’t think you’ll find any issue or topic handled consistently across the country here in the US. Maybe it’s impossible to discuss these issues regarding the entire US?

Some churches will tackle the issue more than others. I’ve yet to hear of any churches here taking action such as has been done to Rep Kennedy in Mass. And just as Naperville is fairly conservative, you have inner city churches such as those run by Fr Pfleger that seem to lean more liberal (not just the anti-violence/gang stuff). I would assume that each parish takes on the character of the congregation. If the congregation called on the pastor to take harsh action regarding abortion, I have no doubt that he would (and vice versa).

T.B.

Thanks for the clarification on my misunderstanding.

I think I see part of our "mis-synche" on this one. I am talking to the nationwide Church, not really just here in Naperville. I also don't want to mislead into thinking I believe the Church is silent on it, especially on a piece-meal (ie localities) basis. However, it is certainly NOT very loud as a united, nationwide, singular Church on the subject, ESPECIALLY considering the Church's stance on abortion when it relates to the individual churchgoer.

Yes, Naper is still a majority Republican, but I suspect you will be astounded by how small that majority is. When I moved here in the late 70s, it was virtually 100% conservative (a better word than "Republican" in this day and age!) I believe that the latest voting numbers come very close to representing the current political mix in Naperville. You are right that the mix will adjust in the 2010 election cycle, but if there is a turnout of 40% or greater, I would be a bit surprised if teh mix goes much beyond 56% Republican, 46% Democrat/other.

JOMO

Anon –

You misunderstand. I wasn’t stating that you still needed to provide a link or never provided one; I was simply explaining why I thought the link was necessary because you seemed to be bemoaning the fact that you have to perform “research for others”. I was just stating that I thought it was good etiquette here to provide at least one source or link if you’re going to say something is based on statistics.

As I said previously, the Dems are making inroads into Naperville and DuPage County, but I don’t think the last election is any true barometer of the city’s political affiliation and I don’t believe Naperville is 50% Dem. I think Naperville is majority Republican, albeit there were plenty of pissed off Republicans last year who voted the other way. Just as next year I would expect to see many Dems vote Republican (or fail to vote) after the fiasco that has been our State government lately and the still-struggling economy.

I don’t know where you attend mass that you think the church has been so silent on abortion. Could the church be louder here? Yes. I belonged to a parish in California that was very vocal about abortion and at election time mentioned abortion’s political supporters by name with the message that a vote for them was a vote for murder. I personally found this mixing of church and politics to be distasteful. It was too overt for me. But the pastor received a standing ovation so I guess I was in the minority there. But to say the church has been silent on this topic is, I believe, an exaggeration.

T.B.

Read all the post, TB --- I DID provide a link, thus it is not my anecdotal info. You, however, prefer to ignore it. Data & facts are always pesky things, ain't they?

Yes, the elected officials in DuPage are almost 100% Republican (whatever that means, given the state of politics nowadays). However, you might want to relook the voting data on DuPage, in particularly Naperville. In the last two elections, Dems came in right at or around 50% of the vote (look at the Senger election for the House ---- she lost DuPage/Naper, but Will/Naper put her over the edge for the win).

I would never tell someone how to vote or who to vote for ---- the thread was on the Church itself, and I stand by my observation that when it comes to the issue of abortion the Church is hypocrital. You cannot tell your followers that something is purely murder, then go ahead and back those who support said "murder". That support comes in many forms, including offering sacrements to those same persons, as an example. Given that the Church is so "loud" on other political issues, like war, poverty, redistribution, etc., their silence politically on abortion is deafening and, as I stated earlier, hypocritical.

If you find the Church to be fine as is, that's okay. Some people like potholes in the road and flies in their chardonnay.

Anon –

While you may “not [be] in the habit of performing research for others” I would hope you’d provide such links or sources if you’re going to state something is true based on the statistics. Simply state what statistics you’re using for the basis of your statement. Otherwise, they’re your own anecdotal observations and should be stated as such.

I don’t know that using the past presidential election is a good barometer for this subject given that it was a historic event, in the middle of two divisive wars, and at the start of an economic downturn. There were many factors at play during this election cycle. Or are you stating that Catholics should or do use abortion as the sole reason for casting their votes?

DuPage County and Naperville vote mostly Republican, though that’s slowly changing. The Sun commented in Sept. 2008 how DuPage’s elected officials were 100% Republican (not sure what the % is now). I don’t see how this voting belies my previous assumption that the churches I’ve belonged to have been conservative & Republican. This doesn’t seem to be an “illusion” to me.

T.B.

TB,

Not everyhting has a link, and I am not in the habit of performing research for others. However, in this case I will offer one link:

http://elections.nytimes.com/2008/results/president/exit-polls.html

This is a simple, single point of measure related strictly to Pres. Obama's election. It is, however, not anecdotal and represents relatively deent data. There are numerous sites out there with similar data/polling, but I warn you that many of them are professional sites and as such cost $$$ to access.

Your comment on "every parish you have been part of" is Republican & conservative may be true, or it may be an illusion based on other complimentary anecdotal data. Use Naperville as an example: I am guessing many who attend Catholic church here assume it is as you describe, however the actual voting belies that assumption. This is precisely the hypocrisy I referred to in my original post.

In short, I do not see how the Catholic Church can reconcile its world view on abortion as death yet not fight it tooth and nail here.

Anonymous –

You are judgmental, aren’t you? First Chris has an ulterior motive for this entire thread, then the three questions posted apparently lack the “intellectual depth and curiosity” you seek, and lastly you attribute some of the posts here to people who have been carrying around some guilt. You seem as infallible as the popes of old!

Anne E. and I have both asked for you to post you positive experiences and yet all we hear from you (still) is your whining about this topic.

The Church is run by people as fallible as you and I. Not everyone will encounter the warm and caring pastor they may be seeking, whether in a Catholic church or another denomination.

And what’s good for some may turn others off. My mother-in-law, a very devote Catholic, finds Sts Peter and Paul to very “old school” and conservative. Does that mean it’s bad? No, but it may not be for everyone.

**********

“I was referring to the post-election statistics that follow each election. Catholics, statistically, support liberal agendas and that translates into a large skew toward Dem candidates, that's all I meant.”

Anon, just what statistics are you referring to? Do you have a link you could share with us? Every Catholic parish I’ve been a member of has been conservative and Republican.

T.B.

I'm a lapsed Catholic and am thinking seriously of going back to the Church.

Well, Anonymous...you can argue that only a few people with a grudge against the church have posted here. That may be, some people will look for a place to vent if they feel things have not gone as they think they should. You have had the opportunity to reach out and share the positive experiences of your faith within your chosen Catholic denomination. Why not put a positive spin on the thread and tell us what it is that you like, that strengthens your faith and your relationship with our Lord? I will listen.

I do believe that a man or woman charged with the leadership of any faith based institution has the ability to change the heart of that institution. Some are gifted and talented with leading a congregation that is welcoming and warm, a pastor or priest that does not have the communication or people skills needed to hold a congregation up, to guide a congregation to a place of support, stewardship, friendship and strength can be a detriment to that congregation. Acts of caring kindness being spread from leadership down are the best way to cement a group together in faith, I believe. I have shopped churches myself and I have left a large Lutheran church with a very austere and cold pastor in our area to find the complete opposite, a Lutheran church lead by a pastor able to communicate scriptural message, be warm to his congregation and foster a welcoming attitude of love and strength that I never felt in my previous place of worship. I am blessed to have looked and found this place. Men and women are fallible, some stronger than others and some in right, some in wrong positions. People talented in their positions are worth seeking, especially if they are able share their talents. I have never liked being grouped into a category myself, perhaps that's what prompted me to look for a church that made me feel that I also make a difference, that I matter...just as I hope every member of my congregation does.

ANNE E,

Chris asked three questions. One could argue the intellectual depth and curiosity of these questions but they are what they are and given the newspaper and it's history we shouldn't expect a whole lot more than this.

So far we have heard exclusively from people in terms of the first question. From what has been written there hasn't been a single example of a prodigal son among any of these posters. Clearly there are a couple of people who felt the need to get some of the guilt they have been carrying around off their chest. And then there is what could best be attributed to the rambling thoughts of a few lost soles.

All things considered a pretty lame and unsuccessful attempt to create an "issue" out of print story gauging by the general lack of interest in terms of any meaningful discussion.

With interest I read through the postings and the issues many have encountered with priests and parishioners in the Church. Particularly Conscientious Observer posted a very sad story. How much must the priest's unpastoral behavior have hurt your family.
Our family, some years ago, had some unpleasant experiences in one parish, but then we transferred to a neighboring Catholic parish which was shepherded by a warm-hearted priest. The people were great, it was laughter and we could sense the joy with which the congregation celebrated the Sacraments and served their neighbor, welcoming us right from the beginning.
Many speak about changing denominations after a bad, personal experience in a particular parish – who has, like us, changed parishes and found a home? Have those who have changed denominations, tried a neighboring Catholic parish? How did it work out?
P.S.: I am not talking here about issues that are of a more general character like some brought up (money, wealth, abuse or “hypocrisy”). While these are surely important issues, I am curious to share more personal experiences we have made ourselves, not heard about or hold as a general opinion.

Napermom,

I was not intending to make a statment on each individual in America!

I was referring to the post-election statistics that follow each election. Catholics, statistically, support liberal agendas and that translates into a large skew toward Dem candidates, that's all I meant.

Anonymous @ 5:22 Stated, "...Yet, come any election, and the Catholics will gather behind any Democrat candidate no matter how strong his or her pro-choice stance is." Really?? Because, I never have. Interesting perceived reality.

JQP,

I am the anon who posted this one, so I'll try.

The Church tells us, basically, that abortion is wrong, period. No leeway, ne hedging, no grey room. Talk to a priest or go to mass, and you will consistently hear that abortion is murder, is a sin, etc. As I posted earlier, abortion is probably the number one or two "wrong thing" you can do in the Church. Talk to any "good" Catholics, and they will repeat this line.

Yet, come any election, and the Catholics will gather behind any Democrat candidate no matter how strong his or her pro-choice stance is.

To me, if the Church was serious and not hypocrital, they would beat this drum louder, stronger, more often, and take a serious stance on the subject. They can condemn politicians (not by name, of course, but by policy) who don't follow the Catholic doctrine on abortion (regardless of party). They can inform their flock that abortion is a sin in their eyes and those who support it, actively or passively, are sinning.

I will note that SOME Church leaders hace recently began to take such strong stances, such as refusing communion to those who support it.

As I said, it is not my thing, but I'm not the one condemning it out of one side of my mouth yet supporting it with my silence out of the other side.

Anonymous on December 22, 2009 9:25 AM wrote:

Incidentally, I am male, believe I thus have no say over a women's decision on her body, and understand and accept the current laws of the land. I am just trying to reconcile what I see as a tremendous hypocrisy in the Catholic Church in the U.S.

You haven't really spelled out what you think is hypocritical about the Catholic Church's stance on abortion.

I can be included in the ranks of the one in every ten who are "lapsed Catholics," although I now opt to use the term "enlightened" instead of "lapsed." I attended Catholic grade schools, high school and college; so I, like generations of others, was brainwashed into how I was supposed to think and how to feel guilt where, in reality, there was nothing to feel guilty about.

Like most teens and young adults, I went through a period earlier in my life of revolting against the establishment and the value system of my parents while trying to "find myself," including organized religion of all types. I questioned everything, including my Catholic upbringing. One day, on a challenge, I attended a Christian, but non-Catholic, church in Naperville. I heard a sermon about a loving God, where salvation was a free gift available to all. This was diametrically opposed to the guilt-ridden, sinful and penitential upbringing I had learned in the four separate Catholic schools and Catholic churches in which I was raised. For the first time in my life I was encouraged to read and study the Bible at this Christian church, instead of being discouraged, as was the case in the Catholic churches up to that point. What I saw in the pages of the Bible is that there was no mention of, formation of, or adoption of any "denomination." There is no Catholicism, no Presbyterianism, no Lutheranism, etc. There is only an assembly of believers (i.e. Christians) and/or non-believers. Denominations, Catholicism included, are merely man-made, formed in many cases by groups who opted for whatever reasons to split from others over the centuries. Martin Luther is probably the most notable of these.

No denomination has an inside track to God. But most denominations have developed, and unfortunately twisted, their beliefs throughout the centuries, including Catholics. When I was a kid, the twisted rituals of the Catholic faith taught me that I could have gone to hell for eating meat on Fridays! Today every Catholic can eat whatever they want on any day of the week. We now know it was due in part to some church "authority" pontificating in order to ensure support for the medieval fishing industry. Too bad for those Friday meat-eaters who are burning in hell while we grill our burgers. Some "established" beliefs were sick and pathetic, and had little to nothing to do with salvation! Yet the emphasis was placed on those man-made beliefs and on the following of numerous unquestioned rituals, to the exclusion of core salvation issues.

Church leaders are called to be shepherds to their flocks, leaders to their congregations. Unfortunately, we live at a time in history when many of those leaders in the Catholic church are accused of and convicted of being pedophiles. This is the hot topic of the current time. In times past it may have been heretics, bad popes, the Crusades, burning witches at the stake, or other scandalous topics. Nonetheless, when church authorities (i.e. bishops and archbishops) look the other way by doing little to prosecute these pedophile perpetrators, thereby allowing the victims to become victimized again by the non-actions of their church leadership, I personally cannot either respect or follow such a denomination. Instead, I opt to follow the Christianity of the Bible, without denomination. No one needs an intermediary, a go-between, to God.

Anne E -

Well put. Merry Christmas.

T.B.

Something doesn't add up with Anonymous' inflammatory post. I don't understand at all why the discussion would be so detrimental to these holiest of days within the Christian faith, not just for Catholics.

Chris's last question on the original post:

"If you are a Catholic who has remained in the church, what do you like that keeps you coming back?"

Now, what is so harsh about this? Is he not also asking for the good news about the whole situation?

Perhaps we should have some eggnog, count our blessings and reflect upon these holy days. This post does nothing to discredit anyone or their beliefs. I'm sure every faith maintains the wish that those that fall away come back, I know my protestant denomination does. The Catholic church has chosen this time to run a television ad campaign about their hopes to attract previous members back, but Anonymous says we can't discuss it? Anonymous, I believe your church wants us to discuss just these very issues. Why can't it be discussed without the drama, are we not supporting the fact that this is also an issue within our other Christian denominations? Last time I checked, I believe we pray to the same God, and He would just like us to love one another.

Luke 15:11-32

Shouldn't the return of the Prodigal Son be sought after and celebrated? I just don't understand the problem here.

Peace

Anonymous 1:38 wrote:

I'm here doing my best to express on behalf of myself and, truth be known, a whole lot of other readers who don't like the one-sided approach to the topics chosen for discussion.

__________________

Anonymous, you would have to have clairvoyance or divine intervention to know what a "whole lot of other readers" would feel is one sided.

I have been posting for a long time as well and believe there have been many local election topics, as well as many on the local school district elections. This, coupled with the fact there is almost always an active "open topic" category makes me wonder what topic you would like to see regarding local politics that you haven't? I checked the archives and there have been 95 topics under the City Council heading - something for everyone.

I think Chris is doing an excellent job with the patience of "Job". For those who have really lapsed from the church, Job is a book in the Old Testament (in the Bible).

Chris,

I'm not sure why you would choose to react like this much less to the extent of claiming that a discussion has now turned into an argument simply because we disagree with each other? Sorry to see you personally choose to withdraw from the discussion at this point. Please excuse me if I chose to continue to post regardless of your choice and because there is still a lot I have to contribute to this entire discussion beyond what you and I may agree to disagree on. Plus, if you do stay out of it then there no longer is a discussion/argument between us and I can continue to comment about this issue in a manner that is consistent with the stated purpose of Potluck and accordingly my future posts won't be directed to you specifically.

FYI though, a lapsed Catholic, and being a Catholic I'm a little shocked you don't know this, is someone who has stopped practicing their faith. Attending church on Sunday isn't the only element of practicing your faith that is important. From a theological perspective one could attend church every Sunday and still not be practicing their faith. Just a persons body being physically present inside a church doesn't miraculously make up for everything else a person might fail to do in terms of practicing their faith.

Anon –

Here’s a question for you. How is Chris’ question insensitive?

“If you are a Catholic who has fallen away from the church, what turned you off? Is there anything the church could do to change that would bring you back? If you are a Catholic who has remained in the church, what do you like that keeps you coming back?”

I would think that the church would want to know this information to help direct their latest campaign to bring back former members. In fact, I wouldn’t doubt that the church actually paid some big market research firm for exactly this type of information.

But how is this insensitive? It’s not asking only for negative stories or opinions about the church, it’s also asking for the good ones.

Instead of using your time on this thread to needlessly berate Chris, why not tell us why you like the church and try to encourage us to return (or attend more often)? Why not tell us what you personally find rewarding about the church?

T.B.

P.S. I also have to remark about the tone and language of your posts to Chris because it reminded me about something my father-in-law used to say. He said it was sad to see how congenial and holy everyone seemed inside the church but get in that parking lot after mass and it was every man for himself as they jockeyed to be the first ones out of the lot, cussing all the way.

Anon –

To accuse The Sun of “stifling” or “censoring free speech” in any way just shows that you have no idea what those words mean. Nobody is stopping you from speaking out, as evidenced by your misguided posts here.

I would encourage you to review the Potluck archives (check the right side of the main page) before you accuse Chris of ignoring the local elections. Past threads from October 2008 included:

“More mudslinging in District 96 race”
“City council election update: 17’s a crowd”
“Democrats: DuPage elections have Republican bias”
“Are you going to vote early?”
“How will the economic crisis affect your vote?”

These are but a few of the election-related threads that The Sun had posted. There were election-related threads posted in September and November 2008 and I can also recall many, many discussions here about city taxes, school district taxes, school district elections, Councilman Furstenau, and the city manager’s position.

You’ve always had “a similar ability to comment about politics or politicians immediately prior to elections”. Just because you didn’t take advantage of that opportunity doesn’t mean that someone (or The Sun) was keeping it from you.

T.B.

Chris,

Come on that lame excuse "we just write about it" is as old as newspapers and reporters. Couldn't you at least be a bit creative in your arguments... err excuses?

So you don't think local people want to talk about local politics on Potluck immediately before an election but you think they want to talk about religion immediately before holy days? I seriously hope you don't actually believe that and I doubt that any other readers are buying it either. You've got a personal agenda in doing this and not enough fortitude to come out and honestly state why?

And then you stoop to accusing me of carrying a grudge? Interesting choice of words for an example of how you clearly cherry pick what topics you permit us to discuss. Come on, you can do better than that can't you?

Sorry, discussing the comment features on the print stories and discussing the topics you selectively choose to post up here in Potluck are two completely different avenues for expression. My focus is and clearly has been on Potluck. That is why I'm here and contributing to this discussion and why I contribute to many other discussions. If I had anything to say about the other ability comment I would be over there posting my comments. I'm not. I'm here doing my best to express on behalf of myself and, truth be known, a whole lot of other readers who don't like the one-sided approach to the topics chosen for discussion. If you really want Potluck to be a true forum for comments about Naperville news and issues then I challenge you to post a permanent feature where we can all continuously posts requests for topics to be discussed. Everyone can freely see what others are requesting and what they themselves have requested and if you respond and provide a discussion to reflect viewer interest it will be there for all to see... as well as if you do nothing and ignore the wishes of your readers.

Plus, I haven't forgotten you are still ducking my question in terms of your intent to put other faiths under the microscope of public opinion in the days to come?

I resent the term "lapsed" or "fallen-away" Catholic for anyone who leaves the Catholic church. I was born and raised in a strict Catholic family, and to their credit, went to church and participated in the Mass beyond just showing up and putting money in the plate. I still credit my parents for showing me what true faith is, no matter what religion you practice it in.

My issues are very much with how much of the Catholic church is man-made and not divinely inspired as it is organized today. I suppose many found comfort in those rules, but I couldn't quite see the point of the "no-meat" on Fridays (especially since a priest could waive that requirement when it wasn't convenient) or the mandatory attendance in Mass (then it makes you wonder why your fellow parishioners are there with you). The biggest one is, they are having a crisis attracting new priests. The rule that they have to be unmarried men is not supported anywhere in the Bible, and the Protestants have proven that married clergy still have plenty of time to devote to both family and God. Our church has 2 female ministers, and their pastoral care and inspirational messages are truly a gift that I'm glad our church has received.

So, I don't consider myself "fallen-away", but just a Christian who happens to have found a church that appeals to me. I give kudos to the Catholic church for trying to attract those who don't attend anywhere now, and our church does the same. We go out of our way to be welcoming, and we've been told by new members that it was obvious that they were welcome, so they stayed. That's a good thing, no matter what denomination it is.

Chris,

You are far from being the first insensitive person to be called out on it who then tried to blame the other person for overreacting.

If the justification for posting this in the first place was because of a story run in the print edition then you are heading out on really thin ice considering the dozens of other stories that never gave readers the same ability to comment.

Plus the fact that you failed to comment in terms of your intent to similarly examine other religions or explain why you failed to provide a public forum on politics and politicians immediately before local elections speaks volumes about how you and the Sun are stifling and censoring free speech.

I'm just dying to see one of those "open topic" discussion get posted right before an election. Truth is you and I both know you are never going to do that are you?

I am glad to see that the Church is making serious attempts to bring folks back into the "fold". The Church does, in fact, do tremendous things for people every day. Without it, and others like it, there would be many more people aimlessly wandering through life witout direction, goals, or hope.

I do think that the next step is for the Church to actually back up it's words with actions.

A perfect example is the entire abortion debate. Those in the Catholic church are fully aware that abortion is possibly the number one "no-no" in Catholocism, yet the Church continues to evade and hide when it comes to any serious debate on the subject matter.

Where is the organized outrage by the Cardianls & Bishops? Where is the Papal decree?

Incidentally, I am male, believe I thus have no say over a women's decision on her body, and understand and accept the current laws of the land. I am just trying to reconcile what I see as a tremendous hypocrisy in the Catholic Church in the U.S.

Perhaps less such hypocrisy would bring even more back to the Church?

Chris –

I think this is an entirely appropriate topic given the recent push in the Catholic Church to bring back “lost” members and the recent article in the Sun. Anon (on Dec. 21st @ 8:48AM) severely over-reacted and lashed out defensively. He seems to be trying to hide the Church’s faults instead of highlighting what needs to be changed.

I was raised Catholic and went through the unique experience which was Catholic school (grades 1 through high school). While my family wasn’t very big on attending church every Sunday, I think the church has its place in my life and we put our kids in Sunday school (we can’t afford Catholic school for them, but I would send them there if I could).

Everyone who’s ever been in the Catholic Church probably has a bad story or has other issues with the church. While Conscientious Observer had a horrible experience, I had the exact opposite when my father passed away. The pastor from our parish was caring and thoughtful, even though my parents rarely attended mass and I don’t know if he’d ever met my father.

I think many of the issues people have with the Church relate directly to one thing: money. Personally, I was shocked to see the wealth of artwork when I toured the Vatican years ago. With every new painting I saw, I thought back to the weekly urges to “give more” to the church. I also have a friend who left the church because they wanted to charge her $70K for an annulment from an abusive ex-husband. Is this really any different from selling indulgences? Salvation is only for the rich?

But I accept the Catholic Church for what it is – an institution run by people who are just as fallible as you and I. Though I may not fully embrace it, I accept it. Would I like to see changes made? Sure, but in a strange way it’s also “home”.

T.B.

I am not catholic (Lutheran), but was married in the Catholic church (my spouse is catholic). I had heard many stories about how this could be a painful experience and that I would have to sign papers promising to either become Catholic, or promise to at least raise my kids catholic. Lo and behold during our first meeting with the priest he went on and on about how the Catholic church has been losing members partly due to this strict requirement. He said there would be no papers to sign, and simply asked us to promise to raise our kids in the "Christian" faith and make sure we found a church we were comfortable in, regardless of the denomination. This was 20 years ago. I later found out that he was the only priest (out of the 6) at this particular church who felt this way. And yes we have found a church where we worship and it is not catholic.

I think people confuse denominations with religion. Simply going to a different Christian denomination does not or is not giving up anything other than the place you worship. Having visited many Christian churches, I have noticed that a number of them do feel that "their way" is the best. I also believe there can be many differences within denominations that cause people to be a "Lutheran" in one city, and then become a "baptist" or "catholic" upon relocating to another city.

as a former seminarian I had the fine opportunity to personally witness and deploy the business called religion
most religions welcome you with open arms for what you don't know, and kick you out for what you do...
I have 2 aunts that are Catholic nuns, most of their now 70+ years was remunerated with $50/month, and a shared 1974 Chevy Nova vs. the priests with a cook, maid and house of their own; no sexism there
religion works, if you believe
I met a lot of decent people via my years in the church, and although I am certain there is still many good people in the church; the corruption and coverup at the top... over the sex abuse is well; not healthy - and rarely ever considers the victims, how Christian is that?
should the upper echelon of the cult known as Catholicism ever want to start practicing what they preach, and cleaning house - I would consider returning for social reasons
I am neither gullible nor desperate enough to 'trust' the top layers of the Catholic Church - and there are other choices when it comes to shopping for a religion; redemption, reincarnation, etc. are all available at some price; today

I was born and raised Catholic until my father became ill. My dad was a devout Catholic and attended a church in downtown Naperville. He volunteered as an usher because he felt it was his small way of giving back to the church. He donated in the offering on a weekly basis.
When he was diagnosed with cancer and started chemotherapy he began losing his hair. He was self-conscious about his patchy hair as he was not ready to have his whole head shaved, so he started wearing a black stylish beret. He received compliments on his new style, and it was a small joy in his tough battle. I will never forget the day he came home from church looking like he lost his best friend. His shoulders were slumped and his face was grim. He said the priest told him he could not wear his beret in church. My dad was too proud and had too much respect for the Catholic religion to defend himself to the priest. He struggled with his decision, but shortly afterward he discontinued attending that church.
When my dad's health started to deteriorate, we called the church and asked for a priest to visit him to discuss faith and hope. The priest that came, a long-time member of the church, he could not have been less warm, consoling, or caring. He basically gave my father his Last Rites. That was clearly NOT what we asked for. Not once did this man ask my father how he felt, if there was anything he could do for him, or any of the niceties a basic stranger would offer a sick person, let alone what you would expect a man of the cloth to do. My family was so upset, my brother had to ask him to leave. He was non-plussed, and left without an attempt to remedy the misunderstanding even after it was explained to him.
Fast forward several years, my father has since died. We did not have anyone from that patricular church at his funeral. We no longer attend any church on a regular basis, although we consider ourselves to be religious. The priest that visited my dad was up on child molestation charges and has since disappeared from the church. A family friend wanted to purchase a mass for my father, and was told they had to pay cash if they wanted it in time for the funeral, as there was not enough time for their check to clear. That was the pivotal moment for us. A church that would withhold a mass because of money is not the place for me or my family.
We are now visiting a Protestant Church which seems to have a very caring and involved community. The denomination isn't important to me because they all have the same basic beliefs. It's the sense of community and caring that I am looking for.

Chris,

First off you should be ashamed of yourself for posting something as potentially inflaming as this immediately before some of the holiest days in the Catholic tradition when you and no media outlet have the right to stick your nose into the personal beliefs of anyone. And especially not unless you are prepared to go week-by-week and examine the reasons behind every other single religion that have lost members. The Catholic church is far from unique from the aspect of reaching out spiritually to those who have fallen away from following the teachings of the church. Goodness knows if you had posted something like this about Muslims' immediately before Ramadan you most likely would have received death threats from Muslim zealots. Just because non-Muslims tend to be far less radical in their ability to accept criticism of their personal beliefs or their religious traditions still doesn't mean that anything like this which is terribly personal and individual in nature has any business being discussed in a public forum. With polarized views such as the opening salvo by "Rich" this is going to be a disgusting exchange for sure immediately before Christmas.

Second, it does not go without notice by many of us that you and the Naperville Sun never provided us with a similar ability to comment about politics or politicians immediately prior to elections.

The old saying is that in some venues it is best to stay away from discussion politics and religion isn't necessarily a bad one. If the Naperville Sun isn't going to provide us with an open forum to discuss politics immediately before an election then on an equality basis I don't think we should be discussion religion, especially immediately before the holiest days of that religion.

Please take this discussion down immediately and exhibit some better discretion and common sense in the future. I intend to send several emails to your publisher and the Sun-Times to further express my disgust by this totally insensitive, inappropriate, and untimely discussion.

I was going to leave this alone as I think a person's faith is their own business, but then I read Rich's post. While I am sure that I won't convince him otherwise, I have had a different experience with the Catholic church. As I have mentioned before, a few years ago I was hit with a serious illness. My wife put my name on the sick list for prayers from the parish. Next thing I know, the deacon from our church is visiting me in the hospital, and he brought gift cards for local food stores. They continued to help us out financially until we got back firmly on our feet. We didn't ask for any of this; the pastor and deacon took it on themselves to help us when we needed it.

Rich and others may think that the Catholic church perpetuates a financial scam, but most Catholic churches run on a pretty tight budget. Most of their "wealth" comes from the land that their churches are built on. I never went to church expecting them to help us out, and still would attend even if they didn't. The fact that they did, unasked, only enhanced my faith. I hope others don't have to go through the same thing to enhance their faith...

I stopped going because I just came to see it as a big moneymaking scam. They take a few parts of the bible, add on a few other bits, like praying to Mary, and serve it up in weekly bite size chunks, similar to McDonalds.

For me all the abuse scandals we hear about didn't change my opinion of the Church, merely confirmed it. Even as a human being, that does not presume to lecture other people on how to behave, if I found out that a child known to me was being abused, I would not be able to rest until something was done about it.

And yet the Church's reaction to the prospect of bad publicity was the same as any large company - sweep it under the carpet and hope it all goes away.

If people get comfort from the rituals, from clutching beads, and touching statues, then that's fine. But for me I see the Catholic Church as a very wealthy and successful global franchise with a 2,000 year history.