So I have been informed that D204 is no longer offering all day kindergarten. Wow!

I just got my elementary school registration packet for next yr. Ready for this: 95.00 is the fee for registration. This doesnt include milk, supplies, or anything extra. Wait till you see the middle and high school costs. This year cost about $300/h.s.student with registration and fees. Whats next yr? $600? Pretty soon we will reach private school fees. So I guess we will have to make up the state's shortfall. One way or another. The Board agreed to this?

We really need four hs, neuqua is still at a very high number people

Hello all - We've got kids in 204, one in ES and one in MS. Both are great schools with great staff.

Disconnect is our school board. We now have 3 HS and only need 2. They have little if no respect for the residents they represent.

Please do us all a favor and please vote at the next election and vote against every incumbent!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100412/ap_on_re_us/us_nj_governor_union_memo

It would appear to me the Gov. of New Jersey has more cajones than either the 203 or 204 school board. Why can't we have a school board with a back bone?

Psyche: What I was unhappy with is reading in the Sun a big group of people from SD 204 (30 the article said) drove to Springfield proclaiming save our schools. They demanded their funding now. Then a woman named Price is quoted as saying something to the effect SD 204 is being penalized as a SD that lives within its means and is financially responsible. Good god lady, you spent an incredible amount of money on probably the most unappealing school building ever built (that probably was not needed) and you still have not paid all the bills owed and that will come due because of it. What is the status of the Brach-Brody "responsibility"? If SD is comports itself being responsible financially, I would hate to see your credit card bills every month.

Know what really ticked me off about this whole 204 fiasco?

During interviews, both the Board and the Superintendant were quoted as saying something along the lines of "the first $9.1 million in cuts were easy --- the rest will cut into muscle".

My Question: Why in the heck did they let the"easy" $9.1 million ever get spent in the first place?

They are outright admitting their incompetence!

Yet, we will re-elect them, let them take more taxes from us, and probably send one of these idiots to Springfiled in thenext election.

I saw an email going around that triggered some thoughts. Hey, there are some irrate taxpayers out there D204 - are you paying attention? I love teachers and what they do every day for our children. I do not hold administrators in as high regard as the front-line educators. However, there also needs to be a reality check. The major fiscal problem with our school district 204, and 203 for that matter, is the pension system and salaries of the Administrators and the Teachers union.

Career-ending salary levels feed the pension plan beast, and two benefits need cutting now. Private sector jobs (at companies) do not have these two benefits, so why should government and quasi-government retirees get such benefits? Why are OUR employees (WHO WE PAY), the teachers and administrators, and OUR elected officials (the school board members) cutting programs, teachers, etc. for the education of OUR CHILDREN.

OBSCENE BENEFIT #1 - One benefit alone costs taxpayers plenty: Artificially pumped up salaries - due to 6% annually compounded bump-ups in salary allowed in the last four years of the D204 employee's career, need to go away. Over time, a cut of that one single benefit alone will reduce the wasted tax revenues by over 26%. The career-ending bump-ups were a scam from day 1 to artificially balloon the value of a worker's contribution for the sole purpose of getting more pension benefits. Maybe it served a purpose when teachers/administrators made nothing, but today they make more than the private sector averages. And that is just wrong - plain and simple. Music Program Nazis, demand cuts here first!

OBSCENE BENEFIT #2 - On top of that, most Illinois state pensions have annual percentage increases in the payout for the retiree after they have retired - a feature that does not exist in the private sector (companies). These annual increases compound the problem, and wasted tax revenues, another 50% or more depending on inflation and the length of retirement years. And in some cases (are you sitting down), the pension lives on past the death of the employee with the annual increases.

The private sector does not offer annual increases in pension benefits after you retire - you get a fixed monthly payout - period. Private sector plans may offer a choice of options, but none of the options include annual increases in the payout. Some private sector plans allow a reduced payout to go to the spouse upon death of the retiree, but then the pre-death benefit is much smaller (it's all based on actuarial tables and economics - unlike our government and quasi-government plans which are based on getting the most money negotiated by threat of strike to STOP TEACHING OUR CHILDREN - period).

So the salaries feeding the pension calculations are artificially high due to the career ending bump-ups, and have additional increases after retirement - high in comparison to the average private sector employee of similar experience and education where such benefits do not exist. In the case of teachers, who work only 75% of the time that a private sector person works - 9 months out of 12 months - one has to gross up whatever the teachers make by 33% (100%/75% = 1.334 factor; so $100k salary becomes $133K on an apples to apples comparison basis to the private sector). When you compare on that basis - the eyes pop out of ones head!

Those union and administrator career-ending salaries are just too high, and thus, that starting point of the pension system and annual increases post-retirement are THE big fiscal problems. Salaries represent 75%-80% of the D204 budget now close to $300 million tax revenues per year (equivalent to a new Metea HS every year counting all associated costs - principle, interest and operating costs). However, do you hear anyone talking about this at the school board, in the administration, anywhere? Wonder why?

Well, the union ain't gonna say anything because this benefit is great - even though it threatens the very solvency of the state, and the life savings and jobs of its residents! And because the administrators benefit from any union "negotiated" deal (their benechmark basis for their own pension plan) they ain't talkin'! What about the school board members then, the representatives we elected to serve our interests? Well, they ain't talkin', because you see, the school board members often use their position as a launching point for political careers that result in them getting to participate in the greatest plan of all - the Illinois government pension plan - the most lucrative of all the plans! (Example, Dawn Desart could not even wait a few months to announce she's running for the "green" oops - I mean state congress).

Isn't it sad that our unions used low salaries versus the private sector to justify better benefits, but now that government workers make more on average than private sector employees, you do not see unions biting the bullet, and taking the deserved haircut - for our children's sake. They use whatever means necessary to get more and more for their leaders, then turn on their youngest members, take away their benefits, salary and jobs to protect their own total compensation - with no consideration for the vibrance of young, newly educated teachers, with high technology skills. What a sad, irresponsible legacy they leave to their own children as well.

And don't forget about the young children of laid off workers at home, and the fact that these unemployed teachers will not consume as much, may not pay all their bills, and may have to sell their homes at below market levels -- all this because an entrenched union continues to operate on a business as usual, "me trumps we" basis. And who cares about the sick, poor and elderly, who are constitutionally behind the pension plans in terms of state funding obligations. And who cares about college loans, grants and the quality of education from OUR state universities that can no longer be counted on for educating our kids.

And don't expect the D204 administrators to take any cuts, because they benchmark off the union contract. Yes, the administration benefits from whatever they give to the union. Taxpayers should be shocked that there is no one guarding the hen house, and foxes are all around.

So what does this mean for the taxpayer, the ones funding the whole system? Let's see, WE PAY MORE TAXES: for less quality education at all levels including universities, for a bigger burden of regional special needs services that are no longer paid in full by the state, for a bigger burden of all day K/part-day pre-K no longer funded by the state, for a bigger burden of costly bus transportation in an ill-conceived boundary setup anchored in the farmer days of yore no longer funded by the state (these three areas alone are nearly $50 million - or nearly 15% of the annual budget). And God help us if we get too sick, too old or too poor because we will standing in line after the pensions get paid - and that we funded for the teachers and administrators when we were younger, healthier and richer.

What a deal! Thank you union, administration and school board for caring for our children and your fiscal responsibility - NOT.

I came accross an interesting web page for Naperville Schools. Everyone should take a look.

http://truthin203.blogspot.com/

I'm glad somebody is investing in another perspective.

mia culpa (hope I spld that write.)

The point I was making is that the staffing cuts are because of State Funding collapsing, the State is counting on more Federal money which is also collapsing and most of it is borrowed anyway.

The reason the State is in trouble along with the school districts is pension packages and union requirements promises that were made that could never be kept. Politicians telling people what they want to hear if the donations keep on rolling in, wow. The Unions put the Clowns that run Illinois, the school districts and the US into office.

The Nationalization of 18% of the US economy isn't going to be a winner for the economy and was voted in by the same clowns the SEIU and NEA funded along with the UAW to tune of $450 million to the Democrats or was it just Obama. Obama used the stimulus to reward the public service unions and the GM nationalization to reward the UAW to the tune of $400K plus per member. Unions $450 million in and over $1 Trillion out so far.

While the 17,000 IRS jobs won't soak up very many of the teachers who are going to lose their jobs to fund the pensions of the senior union members and unions bosses, it is a job.

After suffering mouthy brats, having Gestapo like powers that strike terror into the hearts of ordinary Americans will definitely be a change.

By Anonymous on March 22, 2010 5:41 PM

To: Anonymous on March 22, 2010 9:38 AM

Gee, I didnt realize that 204 cutting staff would lead to the downfall of the entire nation. Never realized that the layed off teachers were responsible for Health Care reform. Oh well, according to your analogy they can be come IRS agents. As the influx of business coming the IRS's way would require them to hire more agents.

I like to sit back and watch my neighbors fight it out with each other, but come on can we at least stick to the topic.

To: Anonymous on March 22, 2010 9:38 AM

Gee, I didnt realize that 204 cutting staff would lead to the downfall of the entire nation. Never realized that the layed off teachers were responsible for Health Care reform. Oh well, according to your analogy they can be come IRS agents. As the influx of business coming the IRS's way would require them to hire more agents.

I like to sit back and watch my neighbors fight it out with each other, but come on can we at least stick to the topic.

BS the private sector gets hour lunches not 30 minutes! So yes teachers get a 1/2 hour lunch, gasp!!!

Whether you like the Teachers and Administrator or not, the fact remains that the Teacher's Union; the NEIU and the legislator-zombies that they funded and control in Springfield have bankrupted the State of Illinois, the United States moved a giant step closer to bankruptcy on Sunday. IL has $160 billion in unfunded pensions that will never be funded.

The ENFORCEMENT part of the "Health-care Reform" (aka socialism) will be 17,000 new IRS agents that will have the power without Judicial review to convict, fine and garnish wages of people who don't "voluntarily comply" with the Government mandate to purchase a product.

What other products and services will the Government force us to buy next? And confiscate our savings, our homes, our businesses and our pay checks if we don't "voluntarily comply".

The beauty of using the IRS to terrorize the population into submission is that they have the power to assume guilt until proven innocent. After the IRS confiscates your savings and your business how do you hire a lawyer to fight them in our big money legal system? If your case were to reach the US Supreme Court, 4 of the 9 justices don't believe in the Constitution in the first place which is why they were put on the bench by the Progressives.

The taxes that will be extorted out of the population by the IRS in the first 5 years of the program will probably be redirected to reward the loyal party members via more income redistribution to the Unions via "new stimulus and new subsidies to the States".

Next on the agenda is 20 million instant voters through amnesty, most high school drop outs that are already dependent on various government subsidies. This will be followed by "card check" which will empower union thugs to come to your home or your parking lot at work and physically and verbally intimidate you into signing a union membership card eliminating your right to a secret ballot.

Expect another Federal "stimulus" directed at the unions in the very near future that will temporarily save a few union jobs as the economy continues to collapse.

The Teachers are as V. Lenin us to say "useful idiots".

Amen on the half-day kindergarten. Where is all the EXTRA MONEY that the State was supposed to give us w/full-day? Oh, yeah- -on-hold. Many of us wanted half-day for our kindergartners, but the joke of the process is that you must decided on full-day v.s. half day- -Commit to it without changing- - and THEN they tell you what school to go to. Ok, so my 5 year old daughter may be on a 30 minute bus ride, or maybe not, depending on the school. Not a real decision there.

You people crack me up. I love this stuff. I feel like backhanding someone.

First thing to cut is all day kindergarten. The district only has one half day kindergarten class. I have 3 children. The first 2 were half day Kindergarten. They are fine. We go to Nancy Young. They had to bring in trailers to accommodate all day kindergarten. Seems like a waste. Go back to half day.....

On the other school blog there was a link for teacher salaries over the past 10 years in Illinois. I feel voyeuristic doing so, but I looked up some teachers that I had many years ago. One of my teachers that I very much enjoyed made $104,700 in 2005, $135,600 in 2006 and $155,100 in 2007 before retiring. The previous 5 years they had increases of around 3%, while the last 2 years they saw around a 50% increase.

Spiking is alive and well as Dan and Wt pointed out. I liked this teacher and it seems to be part of the "system", but it doesn't seem right.

To Anonymous on March 19, 2010 12:32 PM:

Re Sally's statement: "So you have breaks at 1:59 and 12:32? Alot of private sector employees don't have those union-negotiated benefits!"

See? It's all about the union.

Dan is right about spiking, but this happens in all public service jobs, especially administrative ones. Some administrator gets a big promotion a few months before he retires so his retirement benefits are paid out based on the higher salary. This has been happening forever and everywhere, just not in teaching. This practice needs to end across the board in all public service jobs. It's just another form of legalized looting at taxpayer expense.

Anonymous 12:32:

So you have breaks at 1:59 and 12:32? Alot of private sector employees don't have those union-negotiated benefits!

Do you think it's appropriate to post on blogs during the school day using school computers? I don't. In addition, I would hope that your mind would be focused on teaching the kids during your hours at school. You sound very hostile and I worry about the students under your care. I guess no class lessons were prepared, papers went ungraded, and students seeking your help received none because you were busy BLOGGING!

I just hope you're not my kids' teacher! I would want you fired!

Come on!

The old canard of attempting to misrepresent an argument for your own elevation is getting tired.

Only the truly ignorant believe that those who post that taxes are too high and costs need to be more closely monitored is the same as saying “no taxes”. Attempting to make such an argument is disingenuous an indicative of a thought process based in dogma. There is a massive difference, morally & legally, between saying there s/b no taxes, and saying taxes and costs are too high. You should all already know that.

To believe that just because one likes the system as it is, or even as it was when you moved here, and as such there should be no improvements, no betterments, no watchdogging, no controls to prevent disrespect or domination of the system, is a sad one.

All things need to be watched, prevented from falling into disrepair, made better whenever possible AND using cost-benefit analysis as an integral part of all of it. Look at education costs, wages for teachers (base, lanes & steps), etc. on a per pupil basis and on a State-comp basis. THEN look at the results. THEN combine the two to measure and see if you can spot trends or relationships, even if they may be anecdotal at that point. Since salaries & salary related costs make up about 80% of total spending in the school systems, any cuts gets to headcount quickly.

Instead of just dismissing those who speak other than you, instead of consistently trying to minimalize them, have you ever thought of trying to “hear” them? You know, walk a mile in their shoes, as opposed to misrepresenting their points?

People are frustrated with the economy, the effect it has had on them, the dangers of job losses and no raises, et. al. Yet here we are arguing over an “industry” that has been relatively immune to recessions (especially here in Naperville) over the years, has had the closest thing to lifetime job protection in America (via tenure), makes essentially the same median wage as all other citizens, and which as an industry has been severely mismanaged over the decades. The more $$$ the industry gets, the less the results we see out of it. Can you show me another industry that does this year after year and gets rewarded for it? But, you seem to have no problem offensively insulting those who try to formulate their frustration. Why is that?

Anon 5678

I am Anonymous on March 18, 2010 10:57 PM
Just as an aside-
I never joined a teacher's union. I did have to pay fair share (a requirement for all who do not join, and boy did I have to document my reasons for not joining), but I was never a union member. I too believe that teachers at this point in time do not need any more security etc. than anyone in any other job does.

I would be curious as to what level your friends teach? I do think what you are talking about as far as attitude can be a bit more of an issue at the high school level unfortunately than the elementary level. I spent most of my 20 years in K-5 and just found the the elementary teachers did have a great love for children and did want to teach for that reason.

Isn't school still in session at 1:59 pm? What were your students doing while you were typing that little diatribe?

Hey Sally have you ever heard of a break. Yep teachers get them God forbid! So check again now - I do eat too!!! WOW!

A question 204 parents should ask

How much of the reduction in education is caused by SPIKING?

SPIKING?

I learned the new term from today's Wall Street Journal. That is the phrase that has been assigned to increasing public employee's salaries in the last portion of their careers to increase pension payouts.

In Naperville 203, the cost could be as much as $1 million per year with the new contract. We are trying to get a better estimate (as well as actual amounts for the last five years).

This is money that reduces services to the students. No educational value.

Spiking needs to end.

204,

I haven't read all these comments. I have read many however. And the ones I read, whether they say teacher or union, they are talking about the unions.

When Anonymous 10:57 wrote:

"In the 20 years I spent teaching, I believe that every teacher I knew went into it for the right reasons. Unfortunately, not all of them had the actual ability or drive to be effective as teachers. The intentions were good, the ability to carry them out just wasn't there. I will say that I do not know of any teacher who went into teaching for the pension/retirement benefits."

That is union problem. You can't fire those people who don't have the "ability" unless they are caught with child porn on their home computer. And that same person is getting the same raise and the same retirement benefits and the same overall benefits as the teacher who does have the ability. That is a major problem that affects budgets.

The other problem is our board should be going in right now and talking to the teachers union and tell them we want a 10% cut in salaries in benefits across the board.

The conversation should be like this. "Lois. Times are tough. What goes on in the economy trickles down to governments as well. We are going to have a 10% cut in salaries and beneftis for the next year. We will address the situation this same time next year to see where we are. Are you on board do would you like to tender your resignation and look for employment elsewhere?"

I don't know how much more simple it could be. That would put teachers, and other government workers on par with what is really going on economically for everyone in the country.

And Anonymous 10:57, I am not in teaching but have a great respect for what a majority of them do. I do however know maybe 15 to 20 teachers. And a good chunk of them went into teaching because they were not equipped to do anything else. Not saying pension and benefits were top on their list of reasons. But it was number 2, 3 or 4. Easy, cushy job was number one. I look at some of my freinds and they have zero motivation to go to work. They are just waiting until they can retire and get 80% of their pay.

Now honestly, why should they have that benefit other than the communist party of teachers unions forces teachers to be in unions and the teachers union is one of the few most powerful unions in the nation? It makes no sense.

Sally wrote "It makes me wonder if many of these types got into public education because of the cushy penions(sic)/retirement benefits. In addition, they can't be touched once they are tenured."

In the 20 years I spent teaching, I believe that every teacher I knew went into it for the right reasons. Unfortunately, not all of them had the actual ability or drive to be effective as teachers. The intentions were good, the ability to carry them out just wasn't there. I will say that I do not know of any teacher who went into teaching for the pension/retirement benefits.

Where I agree with you is this statement
"We have shiny buildings and everything looks great on the surface in District 204, but dig a little deeper and things don't look as great. Sure there are many amazing talented teachers in the district, but for every one of them I have encountered there is another who does the minimum or is plainly incompetent."
Although I think the one-to-one ratio you have is over-exaggerating. My experience has been that for every 2-3 good teachers there is a poor one. unfortunately, the poor teachers my kids did have had over 10 years of experience and were tenured.

I think the major issue is at the administrative level, specifically principals and department heads who are directly involved in evaluating the teachers. I worked for a principal in 204 who let poor teachers get tenured under his watch and then immediately transferred them out to other buildings. Had he been an effective principal and done his job there are at least 4 teachers at the elementary level that would not be teaching in 204 now.

And before someone goes off to sat I was probably not a good teacher, the parents of the kids I taught often asked when I would be back in the classroom to have their younger kids. I chose to leave teaching to spend time with my kids before they left for college. I felt that their lives in high school were so busy that I could not be the parent I wanted to be at the same time as being the kind of teacher I also wanted to be. I didn't want either my kids or my students to get anything less than my best. I have never regretted the decision to stay home at that point and volunteer instead with their high school activities. In fact I recommend that plan of action to others. I think it was the best decision I ever made.

By 204 at 1:59 pm:

Isn't school still in session at 1:59 pm? What were your students doing while you were typing that little diatribe?

I'm sorry to say that my public education was much better than what my kids have received in 204 because my teachers TAUGHT us.

We have shiny buildings and everything looks great on the surface in District 204, but dig a little deeper and things don't look as great. Sure there are many amazing talented teachers in the district, but for every one of them I have encountered there is another who does the minimum or is plainly incompetent.

It makes me wonder if many of these types got into public education because of the cushy penions/retirement benefits. In addition, they can't be touched once they are tenured.

Maybe the industry is attracting too many people whose heart isn't in teaching, but they want the perks. We need pension reform and a re-do on the tenure deal to weed out these types.

And no, I don't want to pay more taxes. As a matter of fact, I'd like a refund on the outrageous amount I have already paid this district. They have squandered so much of our money. No more.

How much money could be saved by scaling back the PE program and making it more reasonable? This would allow core curriculum to be emphasized and other activities that students choose to do to be preserved (like music).

From the Neuqua PE syllabus:

"In our physical education program, we assess students’ cognitive and psychomotor performance, while continually working to enhance the affective domain as well. While physical education may require times of subjective analysis of student performance, we will use objective data to assess when at all possible. This psychomotor analysis may include rubrics or checklists and will be technique driven vs. outcome driven. Students will be held to high standards and challenged each and every day."

To those who think a kid just needs to dress and try, what do you make of the "held to high standards and challenged each and every day" statement?

And what does "enhance the affective domain" mean?? Wonder how many kids fail to "enhance their domain" and are penalized?

Also from the syllabus:

"Extra Credit: Students may do a single extra credit project per quarter. This project is worth up to 10 points and is made up of both written and physical work. It must be completed within the timeframe of the quarter that extra credit is desired. *Students may only complete an extra credit project if they have 3 or less excused absences in the quarter.*"

So if a student is out sick 3 times, in addition to having to make up workouts, they can't do any extra credit. It seems this system penalizes kids for being sick or injured. Is this fair? This program has won awards?

No this has to do with the teachers - it is what they live day to day. You all act like this is just a cakewalk of a job. Guess what - teachers are educating YOUR children. YOU who want them to be included if they are special needs, YOU who want them to be enriched if they are "gifted," You who wants them to be kept in the high percentile of test scores, YOU who wants them to do everything YOU want IMMEDIATELY and forget about the class size! THEY aren't complaining about the diversity and complaints people like you call into them daily or email. This isn't a union issue. This is an issue where a LONG time ago teachers were looked up to and parents believed what they teacher said. As in all fantasy that has left and been replaced by critics who think they know so much about education. Then maybe all you complainers need to step into a school and teach - not for a day, not for a week but for a year and see what teachers put up with. Stupidity comes to mind first. If you aren't part of the solution you are part of the problem and it seems like all this complaining about teachers is your problem. I guarantee you NO SPORTS WILL EVER EVER be affected by money problems. YOU ALL WOULD BE THE FIRST TO CRY THAT YOUR GIFTED FOOTBALL PLAYER WOULDN'T BE A PRO THEN! Wake up-your football player won't get anywhere if they can't read and write!

To in 204:

The posts here don't reflect moderator bias. The posts reflect a very loud anti-tax, anti-union (therefore anti-teacher), anti-pension, anti-just about anything having to do with state or federal government attitude. While unions, pension costs and taxes are a big problem in Illinois, all the people I know moved to 203 and 204 precisely to be in these school districts and don't want to see anything about them changed. If these complainers don't value what 204 has to offer, then by all means they should go live and have their children educated somewhere else. They have options, no one forced them to come or stay here. The majority of residents value the quality of our schools very much.

To Anonymous on March 18, 2010 9:58 AM:

"We need to start repealing mandatory school requirements like drivers ed that the private sector can provide more affordably and which have no basis being offered thru private education."

You're not thinking about the logical consequences of what you propose. Driver's ed became mandatory for a reason. Do you know what those reasons were?

Affordability depends on a family's personal finances. I learned how to drive through a high school program. Private instruction existed then also, but my family couldn't afford it. Just because teenagers in Naperville can pay around $400 (or whatever the going rate is now) for private driving instruction doesn't mean EVERY teenager in the state can. Without a high school course option, kids would just learn the basics of driving from friends and family members, going without the hours of practice and safety instruction that's required through instruction. Result? More teenagers driving without licenses, more accidents, more fatalities, etc., which would compromise the safety of EVERYONE on the roads, and that includes you and your kids. You need to look beyond your wallet, public safety is a bigger consideration in this than economics.

"ALL OTHER education programs, sports, cheerleading, clubs, music, theater, arts, dance, etc. that are not mandated simply must be supported by parents and/or students in a self-sufficient manner through, tuition, fund raising, and/or fees. I really don't care how they come up with the money just so long as it isn't on the back of taxpayers."

They already are self-sufficient to a large degree. That's what the Boosters do, if a school district is well off enough to have a group of volunteer moms that can dedicate themselves to fund raising. Again, a lot of districts don't. Both parents need to work to make ends meet, so there is little time and energy left over for volunteerism and extracurricular fund raising. That's why the East Aurora tennis team doesn't have uniforms, just team tee shirts. That's why the Waubonsie football team hasn't had new uniforms or equipment in years. There already are a lot of inequities between the schools based on local fund raising. But making these programs wholly dependent on local fundraising would shut a lot of them down in less affluent districts, and then you've got inequality in educational opportunities based on a district's wealth. Which leads to a host of other problems.

"IF taxpayers are going to be compelled to support public education we should only be expected to support the basics of what it takes to educate the AVERAGE child. Anything that a child needs beyond what the AVERAGE child needs is not the responsibility of the taxpayer, it is the responsibility of the parents. If the parents don't value their child's education enough to be willing to pay for it, then that is a family matter and a family decision and we all need to respect it."

How do you define AVERAGE? Do we dummy down our curriculum to the point where everyone, no matter how low performing, is included in this simply for financial reasons? What do you do about those above average, like gifted students whose abilities and talents would go untapped in such a system? And those requiring special education? Let them sit around and rot if their parents can't pony up the necessary cash for special ed programs? Again, you're ignoring a host of other consequences.

For every action there is a reaction, and many of these have undesirable consequences, which is why they're not done. There are things in life more important than no taxes. As a society, I think we've already established that.

Maybe the 4 year PE graduation requirement needs to be repealed. It costs every district a ton of money. And clearly some schools have gone way overboard with all the different options and programs.

And spare me the obesity statistics. No one is going to make these kids work out in college. No one makes an adult work out. Forcing a workout when a kid has been sick or hurt seems really over the top. Designating a heart rate target zone for all when kids are at different fitness levels hardly seems "award winning."

It seems they are ramming these physical ed requirements down the kids' throats in highschool. That could do way more harm than good in the long run. They could be turning a slew of kids off to physical activity or contributing to injury.

Anonymous on March 18, 2010 9:58 AM

Anything that a child needs beyond what the AVERAGE child needs is not the responsibility of the taxpayer, it is the responsibility of the parents. If the parents don't value their child's education enough to be willing to pay for it, then that is a family matter and a family decision and we all need to respect it. Under law we respect the rights and decisions of families in terms of medical decisions and education decisions should not be treated any differently.
--------------------------------------------------------------

And what of the exceptional child whose parents are unable to pay for advanced classes? Should only the rich be able to offer their children advanced classes?

204,

You do realized this has nothing to do with the teachers and everything to do with the union, don't you?

Next to congress, unions are the most destructive entities in existence in this country.

Thurston Howell is on the right track to a huge degree.

There are certain education requirements that are called for under law. We need to address this a couple of ways.

Number One, OUR state legislature is responsible for enacting and/or changing these laws. We need to start repealing mandatory school requirements like drivers ed that the private sector can provide more affordably and which have no basis being offered thru private education. Just because 15/16 year old children also happen to be high school students doesn't mean it has to be part of the high school curriculum. Let the requirement for drivers education become part of the motor vehicle law and let all prospective drivers, regardless of age, figure out how and where they want to attend such a course.

Number Two, let's demand our local school districts provide and support thru taxpayer funding ONLY those specific courses that are mandated under state law. ALL OTHER education programs, sports, cheerleading, clubs, music, theater, arts, dance, etc. that are not mandated simply must be supported by parents and/or students in a self-sufficient manner through, tuition, fund raising, and/or fees. I really don't care how they come up with the money just so long as it isn't on the back of taxpayers.

Number Three, Number Two doesn't decrease or eliminate the need for us to still focus on what IS mandated under law and openly demand change in existing laws to remove those programs that never should have been footed by the taxpayer in the first place. It is long past time to get back to the basics in terms of what the Illinois constitution meant by public education. We have allowed the mission of public schools to drift off course and expand to the point of bloat and waste. IF taxpayers are going to be compelled to support public education we should only be expected to support the basics of what it takes to educate the AVERAGE child. Anything that a child needs beyond what the AVERAGE child needs is not the responsibility of the taxpayer, it is the responsibility of the parents. If the parents don't value their child's education enough to be willing to pay for it, then that is a family matter and a family decision and we all need to respect it. Under law we respect the rights and decisions of families in terms of medical decisions and education decisions should not be treated any differently.

By Anonymous on March 17, 2010 8:06 PM
Along with AP Physics, Honor's AlgebraII/Trig, American Studies, Sociology, and Spanish IV, my son (4.0+ kid) still had to worry about studying for a volleyball final exam. He gets the full participation points but then still has to worry about tests/final exam. He had to memorize stupid rules about foot faults and fouls and when the sport was invented.
xxxxx
So finite math, trig, advanced social studies and spanish IV are no problem for a 4.0 honor student, yet memorizing "stupid rules" about foot faults are too difficult or not worthy of their effort? sounds like someone's been hitting the "coconut milk" Mr. Howell.

==========================

With all the academic demands placed on kids, how is justifiable to pile on memorizing a bunch of random facts about a sport? I know your attitude is "what's a little more work for a smart kid" but kids are swamped with academic work and extracurriculars. Piling busy work on them to justify the PE program is not right.

Hey Chir whatever - Then don't comment back under someone's writing or let everyone comment back on yours. If you're only the "moderator" doesn't seem like you need to put your two cents in on everything. You are clearly biased.

Comment about drivers ed.

While required, the private school choices are much more effective. You pay $500, classes are for six weeks, they cover the material plenty well, and then you have the five to six hours of behind the wheel. You can pay an extra $50 to $100 for "private lessons" (you only drive by yourself).

The District's cost is $200 (does not cover a tenth of the real cost). But you are stuck for entire semester. And you get the goofy grades.

Go private and save time.

If the schools wanted to save money, they could offer Drivers Ed second semester Senior year. That would force most students to elect private school and would allow 204 to cut costs.

This is a case where government should not be competing with the private sector.

This is from a Neuqua P.E. syllabus. Note that after 2 excused absences (like if you have the flu!), workouts must be made up before or after school within a strict time frame and they strap a heartrate monitor on you to make sure you're "working hard enough". So for those who say you just have to "dress" for P.E., think again. As you can see, making an A in P.E. might not be so easy. Written tests count for 25%!!! of the grade.

Absences
If you are ill your parent must call the appropriate absence line (Main or Frontier) to excuse you. On the seventh absence in the semester you may be removed from Zero Hour and placed into a Main/Frontier PE class as your schedule allows. (Even if the absences are excused.)
You have the opportunity to make up any EXCUSED absence to earn the points. Your first 2 absences are “free” and do not count for or against your grade. Absences beyond these 2 must be made up within 5 schooldays* by attending a make-up session in the Cardio Center after school at 2:45 or on Friday at 6:40am (PRIOR ARRANGEMENT REQUIRED). You will be required to workout 30 minutes in the Target Zone 150-180bpm to earn credit. You must pick up a Make-up Report Sheet from the PE office, have it signed by the supervising teacher and return it to me to receive credit.
*If there are extenuating circumstances that make it impossible to make up the same week you must contact me to make arrangements to extend your deadline. Work is NOT an excuse.
Unexcused absences can NOT be made up. Each one will result in a 5% grade drop. Any combination of 8 unexcused absences/no dresses in one semester will result in a failure for the semester.

PE is a GRADUATION REQUIREMENT. If you do not pass this class, you CAN NOT graduate. It DOES get factored into your GPA!

Along with AP Physics, Honor's AlgebraII/Trig, American Studies, Sociology, and Spanish IV, my son (4.0+ kid) still had to worry about studying for a volleyball final exam. He gets the full participation points but then still has to worry about tests/final exam. He had to memorize stupid rules about foot faults and fouls and when the sport was invented.

xxxxx

So finite math, trig, advanced social studies and spanish IV are no problem for a 4.0 honor student, yet memorizing "stupid rules" about foot faults are too difficult or not worthy of their effort? sounds like someone's been hitting the "coconut milk" Mr. Howell.

Clearly this is a biased blog against teachers. I guess the moderator must have had a bad experience in school. Facebook has a sight to save Music in District 204. Go there is you want to read some better ideas and not such a teacher bashing!

I stand corrected. Driver's Ed is required by State of IL law:

105 ILCS 5/27-23 and 27-24.2 of the School Code requires each school district which maintains grades 9 through 12 to offer a driver education course which is defined as both classroom and behind-the-wheel. The state administrative rules which govern school district Driver Education programs can be accessed at Part 252 Driver Education. Both the classroom instruction part and the practice driving part of such driver education course shall be open to a resident or non-resident pupil attending a non-public school in the district wherein the course is offered and to each resident of the district who acquires or holds a currently valid driver's license during the term of the course and who is at least 15 but has not reached 21 years of age, without regard to whether any such person is enrolled in any other course offered in any school that the district operates.

Sorry for any confusion. We may never see the reimbursement from the state (given the dire financial state)but it still required. I was not aware of that requirement.

To Sally D. on March 17, 2010 1:15 PM
Doesn't anyone realize that the 38 teachers you list for PE is comprised of health and driver education teachers as well? Don’t you want your students to learn how to drive as well as make healthy choices? PE teachers have to accommodate every single student in the ENTIRE school because physical education is a state mandate. Not to mention that students who get poor grades in PE have to really try to get a low grade. Those teachers bend over backwards and give opportunities to get grades up for students who put in less than an honest effort. If they don’t participate or speak in a Spanish class, do they deserve an A? Same goes for PE… all the kids have to do is participate and, God forbid, learn some things that may save their life one day,like CPR, signs for hypertension, or how to be physically active and ENJOY it.
##################################################################

Boy are you wrong, Sally. Obviously you don't have kids at Neuqua or you'd know what I'm talking about. A kid that puts in 110% as far as participation (dresses all the time, participates, eager to please, gets along well with others, honor's student, etc.)is definitely not guaranteed a good grade. Along with AP Physics, Honor's AlgebraII/Trig, American Studies, Sociology, and Spanish IV, my son (4.0+ kid) still had to worry about studying for a volleyball final exam. He gets the full participation points but then still has to worry about tests/final exam. He had to memorize stupid rules about foot faults and fouls and when the sport was invented. He got the A in the class but not everyone does as it NOT easy (I helped him study for the dumb thing). I'll tell you this it is definitely not guaranteed or as you said "students who get poor grades in PE have to really try to get a low grade". I ask you this, do you honestly think this kind of crazy standard is really necessary? Do you have a student at Neuqua or are you just a teacher at the blue ribbon PE school?

Thanks for bringing up the driver's ed program. Do you realize many districts have eliminated it? It is not a state mandated program but rather a courtesy that most school districts provide. Around my Breckenridge area, everyone I know takes driver's ed through Excel or Ed's or somewhere else. Not many take it through the high school. Maybe that's an area our district should look at eliminating. That can get rid of some of those 38 teachers for PE.

also in 204 on March 17, 2010 3:18 PM
Duh - if teachers can go why can't programs? Did you not hear about the middle school program being cut somewhat? Every little bit helps! Don't you save pennies at home?

xxxx

I do save pennies, but you were the one who specifically mentioned the football team. so how much will they save if they cut it out? And the "expensive washing of uniforms"?

James V,

So you think it's fair that if kids are out sick or injured they have to make up their P.E.??

A kid out sick comes back to a ton of academic work but they also have to stay after school or come in early to get their workouts in when they still may not feel well? Or if they're injured they have to do the workout anyway or risk losing points. That's fair?

Sorry to say, but it is easy to make a poor grade in P.E. because so much of it is judgmental. Who decides who is "working hard enough"? Why do kids need to take written tests in P.E. when they have other academic tests to study for? Sorry to inform you, but P.E. is NOT the equivalent of math.

Many honors students have to worry semester after semester whether they will screw up their GPA because of P.E.! It is ridiculous at Neuqua (maybe not everywhere else). But it's "award winning", right? Does that justify it?

If the program is really all about healthy lifestyles and being fit, why so many rules? Don't you think that turns off some kids and parents (who are funding this nonsense)?

Keep the focus and the resources in the academic subject areas. We don't need SCUBA lessons in high school.

Duh - if teachers can go why can't programs? Did you not hear about the middle school program being cut somewhat? Every little bit helps! Don't you save pennies at home?

lives in Dst 204 on March 17, 2010 1:59 PM
Funny I'm not seeing anyone talk about cutting the football program! Why not get rid of that plus all the money it takes to clean the uniforms?

xxxx

I reread Kathy Birkett's budget update letter - she doesn't mention any programs being cut, just teachers and administrators. By cutting out the football program (and the expensive washing of uniforms?) how much would that save?

do you somehow think that programs are being cut, and you want to make sure that football isn't overlooked?

Truth in Naperville - Yawn? Really? I am a teacher in 204 and no I do NOT expect a pay raise, sorry you're so ignorant on your facts. Yes, we are glad we have a job. No, we didn't ask for this - think again. Look in other areas to help clear up money.
Check in administration for salary raises and benefits THEY get. We are all in this together. Clearly you don't have kids or if you do, you don't care about education. So move to a district that would meet your needs.

Regarding the bloated number of PE/Driver's Ed Instructors in 204:

Not only are there an excessive number of instructors, but, as I recall, a disproportionately high number number of those instructors fall into the category of those making over 100K (most well over). This list was published some time ago in the newspaper. I remember seeing a large number of driver's ed instructors on that list. From what I was told, that position is "highly coveted", because it's considered to be an easy job as you coast towards retirement and many of those with seniority get first dibs on those positions.

"Yes, the teachers will have a bit more work to do, but that's life!" Dumbest comment I've ever read in my life. Too bad this is always a teacher bashing blog. Move if you don't like the teachers. They work hard and a lot more than many of you will ever know. They go to school constantly to better themselves. Have the administration pay their own insurance! Have District office cut some of the overflow they have there! Turn off the air conditioning in ALL the buildings. Get rid of the Interventionists - what is that??? But make class sizes bigger - big mistake. You all will be the first people whining if your kid doesn't make it into the green or top percentage. Give me a break.

Funny I'm not seeing anyone talk about cutting the football program! Why not get rid of that plus all the money it takes to clean the uniforms?

Doesn't anyone realize that the 38 teachers you list for PE is comprised of health and driver education teachers as well? Don’t you want your students to learn how to drive as well as make healthy choices? PE teachers have to accommodate every single student in the ENTIRE school because physical education is a state mandate. Not to mention that students who get poor grades in PE have to really try to get a low grade. Those teachers bend over backwards and give opportunities to get grades up for students who put in less than an honest effort. If they don’t participate or speak in a Spanish class, do they deserve an A? Same goes for PE… all the kids have to do is participate and, God forbid, learn some things that may save their life one day,like CPR, signs for hypertension, or how to be physically active and ENJOY it.

Yawn.
The teachers got what the deserved.
It is nice to see them get a taste of what those of us in the private sector experience everyday.
If they had not been so greedy last year and gotten millions and millions in pay increases, there would not have been layoffs.
Did you get a pay increase last year?
I did not at my job and many companies actually cut pay and jobs.

The tenured teachers adn their union don't care about the younger more energentic teachers or your children.

Now, we need to elminate the outrageous pensions that are bankrupting the state so teachers can save their own money in a 401(k) plan like real people do in the private sector.

For the PE complainers (sammie) --

Did you know obesity-related health care costs in the United States for one year —2008 — were an estimated $147 billion? That’s nearly a quarter of what the latest health care reform proposal will cost over the next 10 years.

If schools are places where responsible citizenship is fostered, they should also have an obligation to help children develop the skills, knowledge and confidence necessary to maintain a healthy lifestyle that can prevent or reduce costly future health care.

Physical Education has also shown that there are changes in the brain during exercise that help improve behavior, concentration, and brain activity.

So what is important here...that our kids are smart, but unhealthy, or both.

The only way kids do poorly in PE are the following reasons: They don't dress for class, they don't make up their PE work (if I miss a math class don't I have to do my missed work?) they put forth little or no effort. I agree dance, and some other things shouldn't be tested, but come on...your telling me your honor student can't pass square dance 101????

I'm all for PE...How many of us are truly active after we get out of high school? I wish I went to a school that offered such a variety of activities, and pushed me to be as healthy as I could be.

Like many of said on here...you have it so much better than a lot of the surronding districts as far as quality of education...I think teachers deserve everything they get....

Some of you have had to had some bad K-12 experiences to have such hate and animosity towards education. Until schools are funded differntly stop complaining about how much teachers make and go out and do something about it.

Anonymous 3:54:

Varsity athletes at Neuqua do not get waivers from P.E. during their season. This results in 3 workouts per day during their seasons on double practice days. Is this healthy? Could this lead to injury?

And regarding the state requirement to take 4 years of P.E., maybe that's the problem. Area private schools do not require this. Furthermore, this limits the number of academic classes kids can take. When you add to that the way some of the teachers treat the kids, the complexity of the grading, and ridiculous expectations, is this really what is in the best interest of students?

Or is this system really designed to provide and protect as many union jobs as possible? If you create an "award winning program", increase the complexity of course offerings then.... wallah....we need to hire an slew of people to administer it.

But remember, it's all about the kids...

An increase by 2 students may not seem like much at a glance but it really depends on how big the class was to begin with.

I am sorry but I don't want to live in the Wild West where everyone can carry a concealed weapon....as in Texas.

It does not mean I want to continue living in Illinios which can't pay its bills despite constantly increasing our taxes. What happened to all that lottery money that was suppose to help our schools and reduce taxes? The tollway tolls which are another tax were suppose to be eliminated and instead they jacked them up.

They even increased car license renewals from 78 to 99. This cost my family another 100 bucks and it is a TAX.

Where does this all end?

No one, I mean no one, should ever tolerate a tax increase for any governmental body including schools.

They get their increased revenues as our homes and salaires increase. When our homes and salaries decrease, they need to learn to make do with what they have as we make do with what we have.

My business is down 20% the last 2 years. I am told others are down 30-40%. How can anyone suggest increasing taxes? It is absurd.

It is time government employees paid their entire health benefit premiums. This is not a right. It is a priviledge. We should not look at what other more efficient states can afford to pay. We need to look at what we can afford to pay.

If government employees what the kitchen sink, they need to be EFFICIENT, otherwise they don't get the kitchen sink. Abolish PENSIONS, too. Period!

Gilligan, the budget will go negative again in 5 years. So much for a balanced budget.

Lets get this straight.
The school district argues they should allow relatively young (early 50's) teachers / administrators to retire, while giving them a 6% pay boost for four years (26%+ compounded). This essentially allows them to retire at full pay when they have a good 10 to 15 productive years left - to go get another job or to sit on the beach.
Then taxpayers have to pay for a new hire with a minimum salary of approx. $47k equaling a grand total cost of around $150k for one position.
They then have the nerve to argue this is SAVING US MONEY!!!
Add to this the fact that their pensions are totally under funded by tens of Billions $$$$ & they expect everyone else to pay higher state taxes to bail them out.
Its time public workers (including police, fire, admin, etc.) get on the same pay & pension systems the rest of us live with. Most don't have degrees or backgrounds that would garner more than moderate compensation in private industry.

According to the on-line 204 high school course offerings, a student at NV can take any of the following PE courses:

body sculpting, applied personal fitness, skill and body development, lifetime motion, rollerblading, softball, golf, football, badmitton, lacrosse, swimming, indoor hockey, volleyball, pickleball, team handball, basketball, soccer, kayaking, water polo, jazz dance, tap dance, dance of decades, hip hop dance, broadway dance, advanced dance, self-defense, bowling, CPR, SCUBA, junior leaders, peer partners, adventure education, rock climbing.

Definitely the reason they need 38 teachers for PE/Health/Driver's Ed. Didn't you have all these PE classes when you were a kid? Wonder what the rollerblading final exam is like ;)

Sammie said:
"We have more PE teachers than Science and Social Studies teachers??"

Below are graduation requirements for WV and NV. Those requirements are actually stricter than the state requirements. The state requirements were recently changed, so what I have in parentheses here applies to the class of 2011 and later. The current class of 2010 needs only year of science by state standards. Since the state requires PE as a daily activity for all students (varsity athletes are allowed waivers during their seasons) there is a physical need for more PE teachers. Kids do not have to take science and social studies all 4 years. Unfortunately right now, the district has its hands tied with the state when it comes to PE. If every kid is taking PE, but not every kid is taking science and social studies, there will be less science and social studies teachers. I know it seems a little screwy, but at least they upped some of the academic requirements at the state level in the last couple years.

Graduation Requirements
English... 4 credits (State is the same)
Mathematics... 3 credits (State is the same)
Science... 3 credits (State...2)
World Geography or World History... 1 credits
U.S. History... 1 credits
Government... 0.5 credits
Social Science(see specific classes above) 2.5 credits (State... 2)
Consumer Education.... 0.5 credits (State is the same)
Physical Education.... 3.5 credits (State is the same)
Health... 0.5 credits (State is the same)
Driver Education... .5 credits (State is the same)
Elective5 (Art, Music, Foreign Lang, ETC).......... 0.5 credits
Vocational5... 0.5 credits
Basic Requirements Subtotal... 18.5
Additional Elective Credits.... 5.5
Total Credits Required... 24

"There won't be any concessions in 204 just like there wasn't in 203. I find it laughable that anyone can look at the contract negotiations in 203 and call it a success!"
-Skipper

Seriously? No concessions? You might want to go back and check your facts. I believe the negotiations resulted in a balanced budget for the next five years. If I'm wrong, someone please let me know. SOMEONE had to make some concessions. Was the contract a perfect one? Not by a long shot. But it puts 203 in a heckuva lot better position than most.

I'd respectfully suggest that you look around at almost every other school district near 203 and find one who is not in serious financial trouble right now.

Your "Little Buddy"
Gilligan

Great idea, Chillmaster but it won't happen. The union would never entertain such a thought. They'd rather see others lose jobs and protect those that remain. Once you get to be a member of the WaterBuffalo Club you're in for life. They protect their own. There won't be any concessions in 204 just like there wasn't in 203. I find it laughable that anyone can look at the contract negotiations in 203 and call it a success! In today's world they were able to negotiate a RAISE? I'm not getting it but I'd expect to see the same thing in 204.

Again, a 10% salary reduction across the board will solve all of 204's budget problems and no one has to lose their job. It is that simple. . .

Robert, I agree.

Just counted the number of teachers for different subjects in the Neuqua directory:

Math: 38 teachers
Science: 36
Social Studies: 30
English: 38 plus 4 reading specialists

PE/Health/Drivers Ed: 38 teachers

We have more PE teachers than Science and Social Studies teachers??

Let's keep the focus on core education.

Kevin,

I too was unfortunate to live and work in Texas. I wouldn't want to go back except maybe for a brief visit every couple of decades or so. Even then I'd have to check first to make sure it isn't flash flood, tornado, hurricane, or drought season.

Texas is known as the "armpit of America" and for good reason.

Unfortunately, the state well is dry, and we just cannot keep spending. I don't want to see anyone lose their jobs, but every industry in the country has suffered layoffs, salary freezes, and budget cuts. 204 just has to do the same.

I'm sorry if that's harsh, but it's the hard truth. You can't tell me that there isn't areas in 204 budget that can't be trimmed significantly. And if that means that students has to turn to private instruction for music, sports, and other extras, then that is what has to be done.

Kevin,

This is a canard argument the anti-constitutionalists have been peddling for years.

On second thought; Setting aside ideological motives, I am beginning to doubt the US Congress believes in anything other than money.

Looking at the money angle; crime and unarmed citizens (scared defenseless sheep) are good for the politicians, good for the public service unions, good for the lawyers and courts, and good for the prison industry and the unionized guards. Fear and a supply of would be victims are all that is needed to keep the gravy train running.

Since the US and NATO took control of the opium fields in Afghanistan, it has been bumper crop after bumper crop of opium. Bush-Obama imported and or kept 500,000 illegal alien gang members in the US during his Presidency, and we now have Mexican Drug cartels operating in over 200 US cities. Someone has to sell the stuff to our kids. Besides, all the drug money has to be laundered through our financial systems which helps to bail out the banks, kinda like a TARP program funded with drugs sold to our kids. Plus the banks know how to finance politicians, everyone wins with drugs.

The blood bath that was predicted when concealed carry laws were passed in many states never materialized. As it turns out, the criminal predators never bothered to obey the laws that restricted them from carrying guns, only the honest sheep obeyed the laws.

Most criminals are cowards and won't take a risk when there might be a gun or a big dog. I'll take armed citizens any day.

"When seconds count, the police are only minutes away"

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

By Kevin on March 15, 2010 11:29 PM

I don't know about Texas. Everyone there carries concealed and unconcealed weapons. Get in a fight and shots will ring out from somewhere.

I don't know about Texas. Everyone there carries concealed and unconcealed weapons. Get in a fight and shots will ring out from somewhere.

Alaska, N. Dakota and South Carolina sound so much better.

Illinois could solve all it problems by making its employees to pay only for their health premiums. Naperville too. Also District 203 and 204.

It is too easy a solution the politicians don't want to look at.

TEXAS is the place to be. They have it going on. I plan to move there one day and escape this hell hole called Illinois.

Lived there for 5 years. Moved back. They have issues just like we do here in Illinois. There just different issues.

Illinois is ranked as one of 7 states not to retire to, due to pensions, debt, employment, taxation amongst other things.

http://www.topretirements.com/blog/financial/4-reasons-why-not-to-retire-in-these-7-states.html/

Other reports I have seen ranked Illinois as the worse state to live in with the worse future. High taxation to pay for outrageous government employee benefits such as pensions and health is expected to bring a massive migration out of state in the next decade.

Fed up,

Why do we fund a bloated program (P.E.) that torments our kids?! Physical education is necessary, but how about some reasonableness?

The cuts should come from non-academic areas. I know the music people are up in arms, but we can't continue to provide the equivalent of private instruction at taxpayer expense while we increase class sizes in core subjects.

The district needs to focus on providing quality academic instruction in core subjects. And how about some honesty regarding how we got into this mess? It's not all Springfield's fault. Our district made decisions regarding how to receive the most state aid. Now we will all pay for that.

Epi:

It was obvious that Unity is predominately Hispanic--all the pictures in the commons and hallways showing students involved in school activities made this apparent. And the school itself is impressive. It's very clean, modern and well-maintained, it did not have a run-down inner city look. So for those of you who say you are fed-up with the Naperville School Board spending like drunken sailors, there's a nice school in Cicero where you can find much lower property taxes.

The teacher I spoke with brought up your refrain about teacher's retiring rich. She said this is a common talking point among those who resent teacher's benefits as being too cushy. She said there are some who retire very well set, but those are the teachers who start in their 20s and teach right through until retirement. You have to put in a lifetime to get this, and not all teacher's meet that criteria--she certainly doesn't. She started at 45, there's no way she'll retire with anything near that generous. So while some teacher's do get these kind of benefits upon retirement, she said this is not the norm in the field. She knows, she looked into it before she went back to get her master's in teaching and weighed this is making her decision. She won't retire "rich" after 20 years, but at least she will have a retirement plan.

http://www.news-gazette.com/news/news-gazette-editorials/2009-12-27/candidates-should-address-state-population-growth.html

I will start using Anonymous 2. No one ever comments on my example above that Epi-nonymous just regurgitated. How can a teachers retirement package be worth 5 times or more than SS? Yes, teachers do pay into their pension. Some where in the 9% range. SS is 6.5% or so with their employers kicking in the same %. I want the teachers deal hands down. Folks it is NOT SUSTAINABLE. Especially if you read my link above. The Midwest is dying a slow death. TEXAS is the place to be. They have it going on. I plan to move there one day and escape this hell hole called Illinois.

I, too, have been to Unity ---- it is a great attempt to educate children in a pretty tough environment and I applaud the district, the parents, the teachers, and the admin for their efforts.

Having said that, their test scores are just another piece of anecdotal info that reinforces the fact that social/financial factors are still the only item that has been directly correlated to education test scores. The are served by Unity is very low income, mostly immigrants, mostly Mexico. Naperville is Naperville ---- very rich, indeed.

Retirement schemes ----- It is a fact that teachers do not get S.S. They must opt-out when they get the union deal. Who wouldn’t? Who would be dumb enough to drop a lousy program that is actually a government-led ponzi scheme that gets a pitiful return on your investment nowadays for one that guarantees you retiring rich?

Think about it --- you can earn, say, an average of about $105,000 your last X years of work (as teacher in 203 or as a Marketing exec at a local firm). The Marketing exec gets S.S (what, $22,000 bucks a year? Maybe?) at retirement, with basically no increases and no medial.

The 203 teacher gets well over $80,000, plus medical, plus significant yearly increases. After 5 years of retirement, the Marketing exec is still at around $22,000 per year, while the 203 teacher is now at about $105,000.

For those of you who blindly defend such retirement schemes, have you thought about THAT?

To Anonymous on March 15, 2010 12:23 AM:

Thanks for the input. Having to waive earned government benefits in order to go into teaching didn't seem right to me either. And it gets better: once social security benefits are waived, they are gone for good, even if teaching doesn't work out. This woman had been teaching 5 years, teachers get tenure at 4 years. So if the current round of untenured teacher layoffs had occurred one year earlier, she would have lost her teaching job as well. And she would have been 49 with absolutely no retirement nest egg after having worked and paid into retirement programs for 22 years. Can you imagine? And teacher's do make cash contributions to their retirement, it is not a freebie.

Perhaps this is one of the reasons the union has made it so difficult to fire teachers. It's also odd how resentful people are that teachers might be able to "double dip" into the retirement pool, but we allow government administrators at all levels to do this--to take early retirement from one government job, draw a pension, and get another government job and accrue another pension so they have TWO upon full retirement. It's bankrupting the state, but no one dares try to change that. And elderly immigrants can come to the U.S. and draw social security benefits. They never paid in a cent nor did the U.S. so much as benefit from their productive years, but we give them social security. But a U.S. citizen who earns it has to waive it in order to teach? How screwed up is that?

Interestingly enough, this teacher disagreed with one aspect of the Newsweek article provided by Anonymous on March 14, 2010 7:55 PM above. Even though she benefited from the 4-year tenure rule, she does not believe 4 years is long enough to determine who will or won't be a good teacher in the long term. She thinks tenure eligibility should be raised to at least 6 years if not more. She said a lot of teachers start out strong but burn out quickly, and by that time, they're already tenured and nearly impossible to get rid of. Postponing tenure would reduce the number of bad teachers who are able to make it into the system.

To Anon on March 15, 2010 7:49 AM: Sorry, but I think you're the one who's mistaken. If this teacher had to waive her SS benefits in order to teach, I think SHE would know what's really going on.

The intent of the law requiring the loss of SSA benefits is clear, keep non-union private sector employees from applying for unionized jobs.

In economics its called a "barrier to entry".

Various industry and union and special interest groups have (pay the legislators) the various governments pass laws to protect the "special interest" by creating barriers to entry, special treatment in the tax codes and special protections from competitors and liabilities.

Locally, at one time our city council had two family members that were hired by the special law firm. I believe that the council member's kids received something like $100K each right of college. If someone has a better recollection of the facts, please post them.

The barrier to entry in the teaching field restricts the number of people willing to apply for teaching positions.

I too know someone that is an excellent teacher, had to give up their paid in contribution to SSA, and now makes about 60% of what the more tenured (and in most cases lower performing) teachers make. Its union rules rewarding seniority all the way, excellence does not enter into the compensation equation.

A good example of how government corruption works is our current President Obama:

* Shady land deal with convicted felon Rezko to help procure a mansion Obama couldn't afford.

* A $100,000 bribe from a prominent Illinois bank, disguised as a "loan discount" not available to the public.

* As a US Senator, taking approx $500K in contributions to look the other way while the NY Banks went wild. Obama was on the Senate Banking committee and did nothing for 2 years while the rape of the economy went full speed. Obama was the number 1 recipient of Wall Street Money in the Senate. Despite all the huffing and puffing, Obama has done nothing to break up the NY Banks or put them back under the Glass Stegal Act which protected the US from the Banks since the 1930s.

Is Obama typical of IL, apparently yes, is he typical of Wash DC, apparently yes.

Are the Naperville School Boards too closely aligned with the Unions? Apparently yes.

I would still like to know the cost per square foot to build the schools loaded and unloaded with the interest payments. I would also like for the media to look at who the sub contractors and suppliers are for the construction projects to ensure that the same suppliers and subs don't appear on all of the competing bids. I believe that this is how Rezko and his partners bilked IL out of millions. For sure, its the same unions on all of the bids as mandated by Springfield.

Sammie,
You are right about the PE thing being different from NV and WV. I'd have to say Waubonsie has it right. PE doesn't have to be a major grade challenge for any kid that tries. If a kid dresses and puts forth effort they should receive an A or B not if they memorized the rules to volleyball. A kid at Neuqua can dress and participate every day, work out like crazy, and end up with a C because they don't know tha insane material for finals. A PE final should not require MAJOR preparation and study time. That should be used more for the core classes like Physics and Algebra II/Trig. And no my kid didn't get a bad great. He wasted his time studied for the final and thankfully got the A.

I chuckled about your example of the heart rate monitor. My kid went through that exact same thing. He is a year-round swimmer in great shape and he could never get the monitor to come close to working at 90% max heart rate. The out of shape kid next to him, hops on the bike and was at 90% in no time. You'd think that a PE teacher at such a blue ribbon school like NV would be smart enough to realize that (heck even the instructors at the Y get it).

Also, I know of several different examples where kids had medical exceptions (surgery, broken arm) that kept them out of the regular PE curriculum but yet they were forced to dress and still work out. The kid with a torn ACL had to sit on an arm rowing machine and the kid with the broken arm had to ride the bike without using arms - brilliant, huh? I also know of kids that missed part of a first options period PE class (swimming) because of injury (one broken wrist, one torn tendon) who were forced to make up the swimming at the end of the semester just to pass the class. I'd hope everyone can agree that this is just crazy. These are year-round athletes it's not like they're skipping out on athletic fitness.

I know my whole thing here is about PE and I understand that in the grand scheme of things PE is not that big of a deal. However, it is indicative of the bigger problem in 204 - the utter waste and rididulous policies that take place in the district. Our district is a mess and until the school district/board can take a step back and look at these things we'll never improve.

To everyone out there,
Please quit using Anonymous as your name. It makes it impossible to respond specifically to a post. The Sun blog is pretty anonymous anyway so just come up with a name or number something! It drives me crazy.

Someone might want to check their facts. The second-career teacher who told you she gave up her 18 years of FICA benefits is not correct. She would collect both upon retirement. Let's hope she's a little more astute to figure that one out. If I were her, I'd be more worried about collecting Social Security benefits though. With the way the State Of IL as well as the fed funds our pension plans she should be good to go.

Maybe if we could get our PTAs to stop wasting fundraisers on things like landscaping around the 'marquee' sign they raised money for two years ago and instead directed those dollars towards education, we could save a few jobs as well. Never mind the sign is deep inside a subdivision where it is only seen by people coming to the school anyway.

$300 in profits each month from Market Day sales (which I expect is mostly from parents) spent on signs and landscaping. I know $2000 a year isn't much, but it can be better spent, saving tax dollars to be spent in other places.

She could have taken a teaching job at a private school or gotten another private sector job if the 18 yrs of social security payments was that important. The bottom line is she chose an option that had that ramification.

If you started teaching at 23 say in 1980, and you decide to retire in 2012 at 55 your teachers retirement pension will be FAR GREATER than anything you could ever hope to get out of Social Security. First of all you couldn't start drawing SS benefits from 55 until age 62. When you do you would be lucky to get $1,500 per month. A teacher at 55 if they retire making $120,000 per year they will most likely get $80,000 per year at age 55!!! They get no increase for 6 years then their benefit jumps 18%, yes you read that right 18%, then they get a guaranteed 3% increase annually for life. That retiree has a very good chance of living to 85. So do the math. The numbers (compared to SS are STAGGERING). So the next time a teacher whines to you about, "I don't get SS and you do." Then offer to switch retirement checks with them and see how many take you up on it.

Of course their next favorite argument is, "well you get IRA's too." And I usually respond, "please show me the IRS rule that states you can't start your own IRA." Well of course they can't but it still doesn't seem to phase them. Most teachers I meet are deluded when it comes to their retirement perks compared to the private sector.

If you have paid into SS for 20 years then go into teaching you don't lose all your SS. You do get to keep some of it.

"Is this something the Unions put in place to keep competition out of the profession? NO retired private sector employees need apply?"

I can remember this being covered on one of the news magazine shows a couple years ago. It's not just teachers that this impacts. It impacts other groups that pay into pension plans similar to TRS, but do not pay into social security. There are other jobs out there too. There are two federal acts that impact this - the Government Pension Offset and the Windfall Elimination Provision. I believe it even impacts the ability for a teacher to collect social security from a spouse's estate too.

While I agree that you should not collect social security upon retirement if you did not pay into it, it does not seem quite right for someone to pay into it for quite a while, go into teaching late, and not receive some benefits from it.

I know it is somewhat complex, and I believe there is some action ebing taken at the federal level to change those laws.

To Anonymous on March 14, 2010 7:09 PM:

"Is this something the Unions put in place to keep competition out of the profession? NO retired private sector employees need apply?"

I didn't ask her how the no social security for teachers rule came about, but this woman lost her private sector job of 18 years when the company she worked for went out of business. She began her teaching career at 45, no where near retirement age. So she was not a retired private sector employee, she was an unemployed private sector employee. And in order to have a job now and in the future, she gave up 18 years of FICA contributions.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/234590?obref=obinsite

Let's start by doing what the article above advocates.

Until the residents of 203 and/or 204 get out and vote the current SB members out, nothing will change. It's that simple people. Those of you complaining about your taxes get out there and DO SOMETHING.

Is this something the Unions put in place to keep competition out of the profession? NO retired private sector employees need apply?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

"here's something I didn't know: teachers do not get social security. The retirement program they have as teachers replaces this benefit. Plus, this teacher said that she had to waive all the social security benefits she had accrued during her years working in the private sector when she became a teacher; they're not allowed to collect both, even if one was earned separately from the other. So she paid into FICA for 18 years and will never see a dime of that back because she switched careers later in life to teach.

Anon,

Income - expenses and interest = profit or loss

Taxes = government income

Since the economy is continuing to implode, taxes are imploding, the FEDs now spend $2 for $1 of taxes they collect. The State of IL is doing a little better, Naperville and its taxing bodies are also in trouble.

The government model currently is:

Taxes down v

Increase spending ^

Increase borrowing and interest expenses ^

Increase the size of the loss (deficit) ^

Any telephone debt counselor can tell you that the USA and the State of IL are approaching the point of no return where the principal and interest can never be repaid; its called National Bankruptcy, State Bankruptcy, Naperville Bankruptcy and yes School District Bankruptcy.

* Soc Sec insolvent with 70 million baby boomers about to get on the plan

* Medicade is insolvent

* Medicare is insolvent

* IL can't pay its bills

* Naperville is laying off as is 204

Do you see a trend here?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

By anonymous on March 14, 2010 3:51 PM

THANK YOU By Furstenau's Backhand on March 14, 2010 10:56 AM - a little common sense goes a long way doesn't it! There will always be that handful of people who can't see anything good because whining is just way too much fun. No, the school districts aren't perfect, but they are pretty darned good - finding ways to improve them is a great thing, but calling everything a grand conspiracy and making the schools out to be an evil empire is getting old, along with being pointless and inaccurate.

Just a few observations:

We attended the regional science fair competition at Unity Jr. High (grades 7 & 8) in Cicero yesterday. There was a poster in the commons area stating that the school's ISAT score goal was 77.5! That was their GOAL, so you know their actual ISAT score is lower than that. At my child's 204 middle school, the aggregate ISAT score is above the mid-90s. The ISAT score for the Project Arrow (advanced) kids is 99%. So for those of you who chronically complain about 204s education taxes, I'm sure you can find a lower tax rate in Cicero.

I also had the opportunity to speak to a woman who had started teaching in the last several years. She had worked in the private sector (business) for the first half of her career, then went back to school and got a master's in teaching. When it comes to teacher's benefits, here's something I didn't know: teachers do not get social security. The retirement program they have as teachers replaces this benefit. Plus, this teacher said that she had to waive all the social security benefits she had accrued during her years working in the private sector when she became a teacher; they're not allowed to collect both, even if one was earned separately from the other. So she paid into FICA for 18 years and will never see a dime of that back because she switched careers later in life to teach. Did any of you who chronically complain about teacher's benefits know that?

We talked about class size, she supported the claim brought forward by Anonymous on March 12, 2010 10:33 PM. Smaller class size is extremely important in the very early grades. The small increase in class size we'll see as a result of recent layoffs shouldn't be a problem in the middle and high schools. From her experience, class size becomes a problem in the higher grades when it approaches 40 students per class.

She and I both agree with Furstenau's Backhand that 204 and 203 are fantastic school districts. Those who complain about cost probably haven't experienced what it's like to be in a low performing and low funded district. Is there waste in 204? I'm sure there is. Could our money be stretched further? Undoubtedly, and it is as evidenced by the recent spending cuts. But in school districts that are funded largely by local property taxes, you only get what you pay for.

Regarding the PE program in 204, I only have this to add: my youngest has been on the PA high honor role throughout her three years in middle school. The one class that she complains consistently threatens to bring down her GPA: PE!

I am curious as to why the juniors and seniors at Waubonsie can get PE waivers while they are participating in a sport during the season yet Neuqua athletes can't?
Really?
(It is limited to juniors and seniors by the way at WV.)

THANK YOU By Furstenau's Backhand on March 14, 2010 10:56 AM - a little common sense goes a long way doesn't it! There will always be that handful of people who can't see anything good because whining is just way too much fun. No, the school districts aren't perfect, but they are pretty darned good - finding ways to improve them is a great thing, but calling everything a grand conspiracy and making the schools out to be an evil empire is getting old, along with being pointless and inaccurate.

To Furstenau's Backhand on March 14, 2010 10:56 AM,

"1) The "new building" argument won't hold water because all three high schools in 204 will reach capacity in two years."

No they won't. There are at least 1,500 less kids in the system then they 'scared' the public with when they wanted to pass the referendum. The 10,400 students do not exists. It's more like 8900 *tops* at the HS level. The 3 buildings will not be anywhere near capacity levels.

"2) D203 and 204 are great school districts. I think residents and taxpayers lose sight of that. I really do. And it bothers me. Here's what you get for your tax dollars...quality education for students that give back to your community, and your property values, which will return to normal once the economy recovers."

Go ask a graduating senior at a 204 school what a gerund is.

Anonymous on March 14, 2010 9:26 AM says

"You may save on facility costs, but you still have your labor (teacher) costs. You would still need a teacher to supervise."

Silly ninny. You would contract Lifetime to staff the gym classes. Just like the district outsources janitors, cafeteria workers, and bus drivers. And get waivers from the STate (yes, this is possible) to drive down these costs.

And as another person noted, anyone who participates in a sport is exempted for the entire year. Very smart idea. Cuts the number of union workers.

To Furstenau's Backhand on March 14, 2010 10:56 AM,

You said: "D203 and 204 are great school districts." Above average... maybe... but definitely not great.
If one of the five local schools had landed in the top 100 ranking then there might be some kind of an argument FOR great. By all account all 5 schools have an enormous amount of work cut out for them if they EVER intend to make it into the top 100 ranked schools.

Something to think about value received twice a year when we are paying our property taxes...

5) Is there ANYONE out there who does not understand that the pension system for public employees, in this case the teachers, is just TOO FREAKING LUCRATIVE to be maintained on an ongoing basis?

-------

Yes, I think we all finally understand. I think there was once someone on here who was preaching this concept 24/7/365 for nearly 3 years.

Everyone agrees it is to FREAKING LUCRATIVE except those receivng these BLOATED PENSIONS. That is the crux of the problem. The legislatures who control the situation are also recipients. Our only options may be to leave the state to the recipients or abolish the State Constitution.

Backhand,

Ultimately what we are getting with too much government at every level, including the local school districts, is entire industries fleeing Naperville and the USA. Go look at the for rent signs on the buildings that formerly housed Naperville's high tech economic base.

When your job is either exported (via imbecilic free trade deals)or your industry (like real estate) is destroyed by Federal Social Engineer tinkering you can no longer afford to make your house payments; or feed your family, see the lines at the food banks formerly called soup kitchens. We are one heartbeat away from the FEDs destroying 18% of our economy with the Obama Heath Industry power grab. Biotech, insurance companies, medical devices and several hundred thousand entrepreneurs called doctors will be taxed and regulated out of existence as the politicians carve them up for money and votes.

There are a limited number of people that can afford Naperville's bloated cost structure; at some point, the real estate values will drop precipitously:

* First through the 7 million foreclosure Tsunami the Wash Post reports has already formed inside the financial system which hasn't hit the houses yet.

* Secondly, through the unemployed and underemployed having to seek work and housing elsewhere. Real un-under-employment is set to go over 20% according to the publisher of US News and World report Zuckermann. Once the unemployment benefits run out, expect to see families doubling up, just like the last depression.

*The $1.4 Trillion commercial loan bubble is about to pop, many banks will fail and commercial real estate values will collapse just like the houses have done and are about to do again. Again, like the 1930's depression and the S&L fiasco, plan on bank runs and frozen funds.

Many that lived through the depression had their money in 5-10 different bank accounts for the rest of their lives. I know several people who lived through the depression who were doing very well financially but still kept multiple banks accounts, stayed out of debt, threw nothing away that was useful and kept plenty of canned food at home.

While I hope the other shoe won't drop, I'm planning for things to get worse, possibly a lot worse. The consensus on McLaughlin and Stuart Varney in the AM is that the economy is on course for the next downturn.

At some point, China will calculate that they don't need to loan Obama more money. Either the FEDs will cut (sure) or they will begin wildly printing money to pay the bills, like Wiemar Germany.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

By Furstenau's Backhand on March 14, 2010 10:56 AM

"2) D203 and 204 are great school districts. I think residents and taxpayers lose sight of that. I really do. And it bothers me. Here's what you get for your tax dollars..."

Some random thoughts on the disaster known as 204:

1)Maybe they can rent out Matea to Navistar?

2)If you like this disaster, you will soon get the chance to elect one of the Board members responsible for it as your House rep ---- lucky you! DDouble DD, dancing to Madigan's puppet strings, can take the diaster state-wide!

3)Perhaps in the future we can elect board members that have the brains to recognize problems, the analytical ability to undrstand how to solve them, and the backbone to actually solve them!

4)Is there ANYONE out there who does not understand that the problem in 204 is NOT the State funding?

5)Is there ANYONE out there who does not understand that the pension system for public employees, in this case the teachers, is just TOO FREAKING LUCRATIVE to be maintained on an ongoing basis?

All of you make valid points. What I'm trying to say is that there isn't always some hidden agenda.

1) The "new building" argument won't hold water because all three high schools in 204 will reach capacity in two years.
2) D203 and 204 are great school districts. I think residents and taxpayers lose sight of that. I really do. And it bothers me. Here's what you get for your tax dollars...quality education for students that give back to your community, and your property values, which will return to normal once the economy recovers. Do you not see that as a taxpayer? It's an investment. The school district and park district are not asking for your money so they can waste it. I'm not saying that 100% of the funding is used efficiently. However, they serve the community. If you see wasted money, then go to meetings and voice your concerns or vote. Otherwise, enjoy the fruits of what Naperville/Aurora and D203 and 204 have offered you and your community. Go visit a school or two in the district and see the great things that they ARE doing with your tax money.

I just don't understand all the "everyone is out to get us" mentality. It's a waste of your time and it's not healthy.

Correction: There are 31 Neuqua P.E. teachers listed on the syllabus on-line.

This is simply ridiculous - we need to save as many academic teachers as possible. They have created a complex program with an army of people needed to administer it. This is really wrong.

"What is Furstenau? French? Is that why you think we should cut and run? Theats the French MO of problem solving?"

What does nationality have to do with this discussion. Sorry Glock 22 RTF 2 (a new kind of Glock), but calling out someone's nationality is out of bounds.

Contract with Lifetime Fitness to provide PE. Save 70%.

Uh, No. It would be against state law. You may save on facility costs, but you still have your labor (teacher) costs. You would still need a teacher to supervise. Who is going to write lesson plans? Who is going to oversee the kids to make sure they are adhering to the lesson plans. Who is going to teach health. Even if Lifetime would provide the labor they would still need to hire certified staff.

Dont know about PE in 204 as I am in 203, but I like the program at NCHS. PE for life. Focuses more on good life long PE habits rather then learning how to play the various sports. In fact the district has been recognized for this program. Maybe 204 needs to adopt this approach.

Backhand,

No, my kid has made good grades in P.E. - but they have had to jump through the most ridiculous hoops to do so. I'm sure other kids who failed to memorize dance steps or lost participation points for petty reasons have not always made good grades. I'm sure there are many B's for kids in P.E.at NV - which hurts their GPA and college admission prospects. The point is, Neuqua P.E. is ridiculous. And it is an example of the attitude and waste in the district that has nothing to do with education.

There are no waivers for P.E. - even for kids who are year round athletes. (If they did, we'd need fewer P.E. teachers, right?) Even if a kid is hurt or out sick, they lose participation points and have to make it up! I think the P.E. program is an example of something the taxpayers pay for that we don't need - it could be simplified and made to be much more fun. The kids don't like it. Like I said, it's petty.

And Anonymous 6:49, I think you are right about it being a Neuqua attitude thing. I know from parents whose kids moved from NV to WV, things are more reasonable and low-key at WV. They had no P.E. finals for example, where NV kids have to study for a P.E. final in addition to all their academic finals. (gotta get those dance steps down, you know!)

I bring P.E. up because it is a glaring example of what is wrong with the district. Overall, the district cannot expect us to continue to fund every whim or wish they have. They should live within their means and focus on education in academic subject areas. One idea; give kids in sports a waiver and we could do without many of these P.E. teachers, saving as many academic teachers as possible.

To Dicks Backhand: I have no intention of selling and moving. What is Furstenau? French? Is that why you think we should cut and run? Theats the French MO of problem solving? I will fight politicians and quasi government entities (like school districts building schools that are not needed and park districts wanting to build un-needed rec centers) who simply tax and spend to serve their whim. As many of us see our hard earned retirement futures in jeapordy because of poor public policy management that permeates all government in this country, we are becoming exceedingly angry. For all the hooey Obama promised for education, funny how we are struggling for school funding in Illinois ain't it? And Kevin, maybe you did not hear it on Friday but the hapless default Governor Quinnby announced Friday he wants your income tax to go from 3 to 4% now and another 1.5% in a subsequent year. Cowabunga!Ante up baby! John Cullerton-D (Parky's little boy from another fuedal family in this state) of course thought the increase a good idea. Finally, the Illinois General Assembly has delayed action on legislation that would prohibit legislators from granting tuition waivers for their campaign donors, family members and others who shall we say have paid them in one way or another. This little rip off of the citizens by the legislators is a century old IL tradition once again proving graft and corruption has been going on here as long as it has in New Jersey. Barbara Flynn Currie-D (from another fuedal political family in this state) thought the Assembly should not do anything brash and take baby steps in the matter. Good idea Babs. Lets wait until your daughters children have completed college at U of I in 6 years. Why should she have to pay the tuition when I will right girlfriend? Just put it on the 12.8bil deficit tab. SD 203 and SD 204 can wait a little longer for the money owed them by Springfiled. In the meantime, we will just lay off some teachers and staff, double up on some classes and raise local property taxes. If you are French Kevin, better move because as the year rolls on, its going to be a hurt locker financially in this state. We are screwed until the electorate understands less government is good government and not the converse. Now go set your clock an hour ahead so you are not fined by someone.

By Anonymous 5678 on March 13, 2010 7:55 PM
For those of you disagreeing with Kevin, you are wrong. Kevin couldn't be anymore right. And he laid it out perfectly in his response.

Thank you!

============

By Taxing issue on March 11, 2010 10:42 AM
Do you know what sucks? How about state employees who get 75% of their salary in pensions while paying 0 for their health insurance and they get Cost of living increases ( something unheard of in the private sector).

Thank you!

=============

By ANNE E. on March 13, 2010 2:42 PM
I see that Kevin is a bit misunderstood. I don't believe he meant that tax dollars should never increase, but that they should be at a steady percentage and fluctuate with good and bad times, as any business income does.

Thank you!

==============

It is always nice that some people will take the time to understand what you are trying to say. Now, hopefully, the politicians will try to understand what some of us are trying to say.

Now, I kinda hope they raise taxes just to make Kevin mad. =)

Now we're complaining about P.E.? What...did your kid get get a D or something because he/she was too lazy to dress for class?

For those of you disagreeing with Kevin, you are wrong. Kevin couldn't be anymore right. And he laid it out perfectly in his response. To add to that, these morons we have elected over the past 30 years do keep raising taxes. Cigarettes, parking, sales tax. Bush and Reagan are the only two who have lowered any kind of tax in the past 30 years. And miraculously, it is never enough. You and I have to live within our means. Why don't elected officials whether it is the school board, the city, Bush or Obama? Especially when it is our money they are playing with.

Offer more online classes and solve the problems with one fell swoop.

You will need fewer buildings, fewer 'teachers' and fewer administrators.

Save the classrooms for the kids who can not self-learn. You will not need as much as you think.

The heart rate monitors could be a great tool, just not used in that way. The results should not influence a grade, They should be used for the students to see the benefits of working out. I can attest that they are a great indicator of fitness. I've been working out 6 days a week for about 4 months with a heart rate monitor and can see the results. I have to crank things up on the treadmill quite a bit at this point in order to get my heart rate to the level I want it for my workouts. Maybe the PE teachers should be using them to look at individual improvement and treating each student as a unique case, not requiring certain numbers on the monitors.

My kids were WV students and I don't remember them dealing with the attitudes you have experienced at Neuqua, So it may not be a district thing, but more of a school thing. They actually enjoyed PE when they had it. (Both of them had PE waivers due to cross country and track their junior and senior years so I don't know if things changed by then.) They may have had some tests or quizzes, but I don;t remember them ever complaining about them. So maybe there was a more low key attitude. I always got the idea that particpation and attitude were more important there.

Thousands of teachers, hundreds of teacher aides.

One classroom, one teacher. Eliminate all of these other wasted positions. Contract with Lifetime Fitness to provide PE. Save 70%. Schools can't keep good math and science teachers since private industry buys them. ON the other hand, what is the alternative for a PE teacher making $70,000? $25,000 at a health club?

That is why schools are messed up. Fire all of the gym teachers and focus on education.

Flatten The Organizational Chart Down a Few Levels.....Too Much High Salaries & Pension Plans.....Recall a Previous Supt Named DW Who Still Is Walking Away To The Bank With His "Take Away Financial Pkg."

Fed up! and Anoymous 2:59:

How about the heart-rate monitors the Neuqua P.E. teachers strap on the kids to determine if the kids are "working hard enough"??

The kids who play year round endurance sports (running, swimming) never satisfy them because they can't get and stay in an upper target zone to make them happy. Now I'm sure if they strapped one of those things on me, my heart would be pounding pretty quickly due to the fact I'm not in great shape. But they actually penalize the kids who are! They lose participation points for this!

This is some of the crazy nonsense that doesn't have anything to do with education - but we are paying for! Yes, P.E. should be a pass/fail. Kids should be encouraged to be fit and healthy - not harassed.

I feel that the district has spent so much money on bells and whistles and we need to get back to focusing on educating the kids. They could do this for much less money.

Sammie,
I agree that those are useless tasks for students in PE. PE should be about lifelong fitness, not dance steps and rules of different sports. They should be working on improving fitness through aerobic activity, more "mat style" fitness like yoga or pilates, and teaching the students how to get healthy and stay healthy. If there were 23 PE teachers doing that I would say way to go and consider the program cutting edge. Personally, I would like to see PE with more of a pass/fail grading system.

Sammie,
You're exactly right the PE program at Neuqua is ridiculous. As you pointed out it's very much over the top. To think that a kid can't get a decent grade in PE simply because they haven't memorized ridiculous facts and rules? I don't get it. Neuqua staff and administrators are so caught up in trying to be the best that they can't see the trees beyond the forest.

There is so much waste and overspending in 204 (starting with the 3rd high school that we didn't need). Our district needs to stop all crazy spending and look at every expenditure on a line by line basis. They should be looking at the top and eliminating some of those crazy over-the-board administrator positions. We are a top heavy district. If they want to cut the fat, start at the top.

Good thing the school boards in 203 and 204 sank the homeowners in debt to build schools we could have done without. Way to go!

Secondly, the teachers and the politicians they finance and support have driven the costs in the school districts beyond what the economy of the wealthiest city of its size in the US can support. No small feat.

Keynesian economics and its piss-poor implementation in Obamanomics (stimulating public service unions with $1T in money borrowed from China and Japan)is an utter failure.

As the western economies continue to de-leverage, deflate and bump along the bottom, financing insanely expensive governments will continue to collapse. Greece, Iceland, Ireland, Spain, Portugal and Italy are all in the process of going belly up as their big debt financed governments go into cardiac arrest.

Expect to see half of the $1.4 trillion in commercial loans go insolvent; just like the sub-prime housing loans. Instead of the big NY banks, this time it will be the local and regional banks that loan for commercial properties and builders.

During the S&L crisis, the US had bank runs and people could not get their money in some cases for one year or longer. This will be a worse cascade failure barring the completion of a hail Mary pass; unlikely to come from the Obama administration so focused in taking America into candy coated Marxism at any cost.

With the current unsupportable building loans, pensions, and salaries expect to see continued teacher layoffs since the Senior tenured union members will not take a pay cut under any circumstances.

Perhaps the School Districts need to go bankrupt and have a bankruptcy judge fix the salaries, benefits and pensions to something that can be supported and paid by the shrinking tax base already loaded with approx $250K of federal debt per Naperville family which is rapidly headed toward $500K of Obama driven debt.

Things can and probably will get a lot worse until all of the Keynesian clowns are removed from power at all levels of government and government is radically downsized.

50 kids per class with unpaid parent assistants may be making a comeback to a school district near you.

I see that Kevin is a bit misunderstood. I don't believe he meant that tax dollars should never increase, but that they should be at a steady percentage and fluctuate with good and bad times, as any business income does. In good times we should be saving excess tax revenue to tide us over in bad times. Just because a tax amount in good times is in excess of needs should not mean that we go look for ways to spend the dollars, rather than investing the excess in safe money making accounts to hold us over during bad times. Wow, new thinking, huh? Think of how innovation and great financial management could make a difference here. How could we provide social services, education, safety services at current or better levels without increasing costs? Isn't this how success in business works, when a business owner is personally responsible for production costs versus income? Think how less stressed and happier we would be knowing our tax revenue was used responsibly, without excess cost overages while maintaining a cushion for the proverbial rainy day. Isn't this type of management what makes many happy households and businesses happy and less stressed? How could we better spend our tax revenues as if they were our personal dollars, instead of thinking..."wow, it's there, let's have at it and spend it as though we don't connect the dollars to the actual people that provided those dollars in a respectful way?" How can a society sustain total tax liability on an income that increases by percentage points over time? What happens when that percentage becomes much more than 50% of gross or adjusted income? Has anyone added up their total tax liability to income? Income tax, property tax, sales tax, registration fees for school and cars...what am I missing? Cost of living increases do not keep up with continually higher tax percentages.

Furstenau's Backhand and Mark,

There should never be an increase in the tax rates ever. There should never be increases in taxes.

Here is why:

When houses doubled in price the last 20 years, if the tax rate stayed at its roughly historical 2% on our homes, all the government bodies feeding off our real estate tax bills, received a doubling of taxes. Thus they had plenty of revenue to pay for raises, maintenance and even improvements.

As far as the former sales tax of 6.75% when inflation caused the prices of goods to double the last 20 or so years, all government entities feeding off the sales tax had their revenues doubled. Cigarettes went up from $7 dollars a carton to at least $35 a carton in the last 25 years. Thus taxing authorities got 5 times their revenues here. Sadly, they still raised our sales tax to 7.25% which provided them with excessess for such things as pensions, unrealistic health premiums and corruption.

Why shoud state income tax be raised from 3% to 4%? That is insanity. As our salaries rose from 50k to 100k in the last 20 years, so did our taxes. As our salaries rose, our taxes increased, and this provides the needed revenue to increase government employee salaries. But increasing state taxes from 3% to 4% as Quinn is suggesting, allows the government to give its employees raises and benefits that are greater than the private sector combined with being inefficient.

I am sorry but I am not being unrealistic. I feel you both are being naive and falling for Quinn's poisonous tongue. If this man is ever elected our 12 billion deficit will go to 48 billion in 4 years. And I hope you will be happy when he says, "we now need 5% real estate taxes, 17% sales tax, and a 35% state income tax to match that of the Federal Government since fighting gangs is more costly than fighting Iraq and Afghanistan. Have your check books ready and make sure you don't bounce your checks to the State of Illinois. THEY WANT ALL YOUR MONEY!

Kevin,

Your argument is unrealistic. God knows I don't want another tax increase any more than you do, but saying that "there should never be another tax increase, ever" is absurd. Salaries increase in the private sector; so should they in the public sector. And the sad fact is that local property taxes are used to pay for our schools. Until that source of funding changes, this is what we've got.

And not for nothin', but if I were you I would certainly care if they tried to squeeze 40 students in each classroom. As the quality of education deteriorates, so does the desirability of your community, and so does the value of your home. Don't by myopic.

Our state is in an horrific mess due to our short-sighted legislators. The sad fact is that some forms of spending cuts AND tax hikes will have to occur. Anyone who says that spending cuts alone will get us out of this hole is lying.

Kevin,
You have to raise taxes to pay for things, especially with the high demands of Naperville residents.

Everyone else,
What's really sad about all of this is that people who know nothing about the education system seem to have an opinion or an answer. And I still say, if you are not happy with your tax bill, you are more than free to move from this area. Go to another school district closer to Chicago. You'll pay less taxes for schools, etc. Your school district will be of a lesser quality and your property will not be worth as much. Or beter yet, move out of your $400,000-$500,000 home.

But to say "no more taxes" ever is silly and irresponsible.

District 204 has mismanaged the public's finances and trust. They overspent on a school we didn't need and there is plenty of waste in the district.

For example, there are 23 P.E. positions at Neuqua. On the surface the P.E. program sounds wonderful - very cutting edge, award winning. But the truth is it is WAY over the top. In order to justify their existence, teachers grade harshly and there are constant tests. It's actually difficult to make a good grade in P.E. With all the academic pressures on kids, we could do without this. I say scale back the P.E. program to something more simplified and relevant. Kids shouldn't be required to memorize the rules to some random sport they will never play or dance steps to some dance no one ever heard of - all in the name of justifying someone's job.

This district thinks there is an unlimited supply of our money to spend.

I think the cuts aren't deep enough - get rid of some of the tenured teachers who don't teach. The kids and their parents have to do their job.

Please, do what you all want, but no more taxes. Live within your means. Taxing all these years to solve deficits is what got us in this dilemma. There should never be a tax increase, ever! They get a percentage and it should be the same percentage come shine, rain, hail, thunder, lightning or Hell-Fire. If the value of our home decrease, they should get the same percentage which means less dollars. I don't care if we have to put 40 students in each class room. Some universities have classes with 650 students held in large auditoriums. We can go that high if necessary. But, please no more taxes.

These cuts are too little but not too late. This is a band aid approach. As government funding continues to shrink across the board from local and federal sources, additional cuts will have to be made. The 204 SD will have to face the realization that they will have to cut more positions, end more programs however it will not be enough. They will simply have to get a ballot inititiave going to sell more debt to fund their operations. The only question is will the property owners vote to tax themselves more to continue spending? I rather think they will not.

To answer Exodus, yes there are also some administrative positions being eliminated.

Class sizes are already large enough in the district that this increase will not make much of an impact. Research shows that class size only makes a true impact if the numbers are below 20 pupils. Once above that, there is no significant difference in achievement. Research also shows that this has the greatest impact in the primary grades (K-2.) Some theories behind this are that the students become more activley involved in their learning with less peers to compete with for attention, the teacher is better able to meet the individual needs of each student when there are lower class sizes, and time management and utilization is better because there tend to be fewer disciplinary issues in smaller classes.

From the article "Research on the Academic Effects
of Small Class Size"
http://www2.ed.gov/pubs/ClassSize/academic.html

"Both Project STAR and the LBS provide compelling evidence that small classes in the primary grades are academically superior to regular-size classes. The findings were confirmed for every school subject tested. Teachers of small classes received no special instructions or training; the outcomes result from class size and from whatever perceptions and advantages accompany having substantially fewer students in a room with one teacher. This is not to say, of course, that the effects could not be accentuated if additional teacher preparation initiatives were provided.

A clear small-class advantage was found for inner-city, urban, suburban, and rural schools; for males and females; and for white and minority students alike. The few significant interactions found each year indicated greater small-class advantages for minority or inner-city students. Targeting small classes in particular schools or districts may provide the greatest benefits at a cost that is contained, although it may also mean denying the benefits to other students or schools.

These studies were based on research suggesting that small-class benefits are most likely to occur in the primary grades. The findings of Project STAR are limited to grades kindergarten through 3--no reasonable extrapolation beyond those grades can be made from these data. At the same time, the LBS results indicate clearly that the effects carry over into later years. The large, diverse database created through STAR, the LBS, and ongoing data collections offers the opportunity to answer a number of significant questions about the long-term effects of small classes on achievement, pupil engagement in school, and student behavior. "

I'm not buying the argument that bumping the class size for primary or secondary is ok for "awhile".

If we have to do it know and we justify it because of the bad economy then there really is not excuse much less justification to go back to the old way of doing things when or if the economy improves.

If we can stand a bump in class size of 2 more students per class with no ill effect then it should be a permanent, not a temporary change.

Also interesting that no pay raise in proposed for next year. The entire SD203 board must feel like a bunch of chumps reading that news release. Just goes to show that local elected officials is probably the worst way to negotiate labor contracts and further supports the argument that just like union painters or carpenters or electricians that their should be a regional union teacher wage for all of the collar counties.

School districts either have to have the ability to pay for great teachers through a merit based system or teachers have to accept that they are just another commodity that is going to be paid based upon market conditions.

Exodus: I like the idea of a 10% across the board pay reduction, but I believe this disproportionately penalizes the really good teachers. For example, there are many "really good" teachers in the district, some/many of which are making 70 - 120K annually. Cutting everyone's salary 10% means that a really good teacher making 100K will then make 90 (-10K), while a really bad teacher who is perhaps only making 70K will be out 7K. The good teacher gives up 10 and the bad teacher gives up 7. Both give 10%, but the good teacher loses more and the bad teacher keeps their job. Perhaps this is a trade off that teachers are willing to absorb in order to keep job preservation, I don't know.

I would rather find a way to eliminate the really bad teacher making 70K (tenured most likely) and keep the non tenured teacher who is receiving excellent job performance reviews.

Anon (1:31 PM): It sounds pretty tough to do - multiple performance reviews, mentoring etc.

Those I feel the worst for are the good teachers who are not tenured. They are laid off simply because they are new, not due to any performance related criteria. This is the hardest part for those of us in the corporate model to follow logically. The corporate model eliminates those who are deemed to underperform, regardless of seniority or salary (for the most part). If this initial layoff doesn't achieve the desired result they typically will cut employees throughout the salary and responsibility ranges in order to achieve the required reduction. Schools, however, just cut the non tenured without consideration toward ability.

Not my district forum. Not my SB that created the Metea fiasco (boy, would I be mad...). So I will only watch for the answer.

There is a process in place for removing tenured teachers. Districts, including 203, do it all the time. You would be surprised.

Do what all the time? Actually remove teacher or invoke some clause and scare the teacher back to mediocrity? I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but I'd like to know often "all the time" is for removing tenured teachers.

Thanks.

Back to the TH show.

Good luck everyone in D204.

-1

I would have rather seen all teachers take a 10% across the board pay cut instead of the termination of 145 teachers and burdening the taxpayers with their unemployment insurance(IDES) for 6-12 months depending on state and federal extensions. The taxpayers are still milked but from the other pocket. Were any administrators fired?

-1 asked for additional information on this, but the anonymous didn't respond (or at least I didn't see it). So I don't know if there is an achievable process to remove underperforming tenured teachers?

I am the one who posted this in another forum. Tenured teachers can and have been removed from the classrooms in both 204 and 203 as well as neighbooring districts. Each district has differing policies and procedures to do this. Normally it involves multiple performance reviews, mentoring and goal setting over a period of time (usually a school year or two). It the teachers performance does not improve they can be let go.

Bad that class sizes are going to increase. Makes sense. Have to do what you have to do in tough times.

But here is the really bad part. They are going to get rid of the teachers who haven't yet reached "tenure". what they won't do is let the bad teachers go. Wouldn't getting rid of the bad "tenured" teachers reduce the number of people who need to be laid off (as their salaries are going to higher as they get paid on years of service and not job performance) and therefore make classes sizes just slightly larger instead of what we have here?

This is why unions are awful. No room for logical common sense.

Today's Sun article says the following, "By releasing 145 non-tenured teachers, the district will be reducing the number of teaching positions by 6.5 percent." http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/napervillesun/news/2097793,naper-aurora-D204-to-lay-off-145-031110.article

I wonder if a consideration was made at attempting to lay off at least some tenured teachers that 204 feels are underperforming? Seems like a good opportunity to cull the herd? I wouldn't have thought this was an option due to the union contract, but someone on another potluck topic (schools face funding cuts) wrote the following:

Anonymous on March 10, 2010 5:42 PM There is a process in place for removing tenured teachers. Districts, including 203, do it all the time. You would be surprised.

-1 asked for additional information on this, but the anonymous didn't respond (or at least I didn't see it). So I don't know if there is an achievable process to remove underperforming tenured teachers?

One of the most vocal groups that insist that class size is a major factor in learning happens to be the teachers union. Coincidently, their insistence on smaller class size corresponds to a requirement to... you guessed it... hire more teachers!

Class size doesn't matter as much as the quality of the parenting students receive at home. If parents have taught their children to have a healthy respect for teachers and education, teachers are able teach. If teachers are good at what they do, this small increase in class size will make no difference.

I don't believe it will have any effect. Even if classes were increased to the levels present in post WW II (up to 40 per class) I doubt that quality education will suffer. Yes, the teachers will have a bit more work to do, but that's life! We folks in private industry have to pick up the slack when our employer lays off people. I am glad that 204 is acting responsibly and to any folks that get layed off I would say, "sure it's tough, but you'll be fine." This recession won't last forever and you will be (hopefully) back to work soon.

Class size does matter, but living within your means also matters.
2 or 3 more students per class for "awhile" will not severely impair our students.
Our teachers are all professionals and will do just fine. As a community we need to come together and search for ways to deal with this as well. What about private sponorship. Let Coca Cola put their name above the Gym. Or the Library can be called the Pizza Hut Library.
Or as for donations from our citizenry. Look at what we did in Haiti. Can't we support our own community?
Just my opinion. And let our voices be heard at election time. Not one of the CURRENT politicians should be returned to OFFICE. They have done nothing to deserve our vote. It is time to use our vote to demand PROPER representation from our elected officials. MAKE THEM earn the positions.

I'm fine with a small increase in class size; these are desperate times. It's good that the Board is cutting expenses rather than immediately looking to the taxpayers again. But they also know they've got to come to us with the referendum for Metea's operating expenses next year. After that, who knows?

Do you think that some of those 145 teachers in 204 would be willing to work in 203 for 25% less than the current 203 salary schedule?

A missed opportunity for 203!!