Thom Higgins and the QE203 Rah-Rah squad are hereby nominated to be the Smart Grid PR group.

e^(i*pi)

Smart Grid isn't the only new government service funded by stimulus that will automate informing on citizens who aren't Green enough.

Cities Increasingly Turn to 'Trash Police' to Enforce Recycling Laws

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/09/07/trash-police-invade-thanks-government-stimulus/

...................From Charlotte, N.C., to Cleveland, Ohio, from Boise, Idaho, to Flint, Mich., the green police are spreading out. And that alarms some privacy advocates who are asking: Should local governments have the right to monitor how you divide your paper cups from your plastic forks? Is that really the role of government?

In Dayton, Ohio, chips placed in recycle bins transmit information to garbage trucks to keep track of whether residents are recycling -- a program that incensed Arizona Sen. John McCain, who pointed out that the city was awarded half a million dollars in stimulus money for it.

*************************************************************

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/local/New-recycling-bins-with-tracking-chips-coming-to-Alexandria-92880219.html

HOW IT IS!

Excellent article explaining how the EU works, lessons for viewing the actions of the City Council and the smart grid?

We will implement policies that should give us actual savings, compared to what?

http://www.agoracosmopolitan.com/home/Frontpage/2008/01/28/02166.html

*************************************************************

European Union is creating a self-serving bureaucracy which undermines democratic accountability

All bureaucracies are bad, but the EC is a federalising behemoth

by Anthony Jay, Retrospective Editorialist
Gordon Brown

British Prime Minister Gordon Brown.

Antony Jay, creator of Yes, Minister, warns that, if the Brussels “eurocrats” succeed in getting every member state to join the single currency, they will be unstoppable:

Over the years I have identified 10 principle rules of bureaucratic survival:

1. Spread responsibility. Ensure that any potentially wrong decision is taken by more than one person -- preferably by a large committee so that it cannot be pinned on you.

2. Consult Widely. Most opposition comes from colleagues, departments or outside bodies who resent exclusion, so include them all. It takes a lot of time but it does not have to be authorised by the treasury.

3. Keep it a secret. If people don't know what you are doing, they don't know what you are doing wrong. Nothing damages a bureaucratic career more than a public outcry, so secrecy is vital. This extends to public documents. Avoid anything specific and stick to impenetrable abstract generalities.

4. Cover all activities for which you are responsible with rigid rules and procedures. So long as you can show you followed the rules and kept to established practice, you are in the clear. Once you make exceptions or use your common sense, you are in uncharted territory.

5. In any situation where there is a possibility of blame, put everything on paper to show that the blame is not yours..............................

***************************************************************

Another good example of how policies are translated into reality far different from what is sold to the public.

http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/rudds-yes-minister-plan/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Compassionate_Society

Australia's Prime Minister on funding equivalent to adding hospital beds that never actually appear, not one.

"Rudd responded in classic bureaucrat-speak, asserting that “the funding that we’ve provided already, the 50% increase in the grants to the hospitals of the States, is the equivalent of 5,750 hospital beds”.

That might be so Mr Rudd, but where’s the evidence that even one actual real bed has been created? Patients can’t sleep on an “equivalent bed” that exists only in the accounting world – they actually need the real thing."

Exactly right - Anonymous on September 2, 2010 7:23 PM. The City Council and City Management are completely out of touch on this, primarily because they don't care what anyone has to say unless it supports their position. The City's own news releases will only say that this Grid will "potentially" save money. 22 million for something that MIGHT save money someday? Really? Questionable judgment at best.

They cry that they have these huge deficits, they cut services, fire employee's and skimp on every expenditure that doesn't benefit them directly - then spend millions on something that MIGHT save money at some point?

I certainly hope enough people see this that come election time, each and every one of them is replaced with someone without a personal agenda, and a bit of common sense.

Yes, I am aware.

I have stated that I am not sure that going with the IMEA was the right thing. It will be hard to compare the end costs with IMEA versus some other bulk contract like in the past. We DO know that there are cost overruns already so compared to the theoretical IMEA coal plant SE of St Louis with no cost overruns, it will be more expensive. That's all we can really say.

In none of my postings am I approving or disapproving of the CHOICE of power acquisition.

-1

$22 million is one heck of a lot of money no matter which way we cut it.

Despite all of the bells and whistle with this system and especially the ones that aren't needed, won't get used, and don't provide any real value what is disturbing to me is that no one at city hall has been able to factually calculate or communicate how or when those of us who are being forced to pay for this system are going to recoup our initial investment.

As a result most citizens rightly believe that they not only are being forced to pay for a system they do not want and they also believe that once the system is up and running the smart grid will be used to squeeze higher monthly electrical usage charges out of each and every one of us.

If we are going to invest $22 million dollars into such a system then I believe every taxpayer has a right to know how much money it is going to end up saving each and every one of us. And if it can't save us several times more than it costs to build, and especially in this economy, we should not be spending this much money on something that is going to end up costing us even more money in the long run.

At this point it might take a lawsuit against the City of Naperville to stop this project, but until the city coughs up some numbers that can be verified independently then there really isn't much of an alternative since city staff and city council seem hell bent on forcing this down our throats no matter what we want.

-1
You are aware of the massive cost overruns at the coal plant IMEA is heavily invested in right? Tribune reported on it not long ago, and the cost of power from the IMEA may well be more than anyone could have imagined when Naperville signed on.

just look at what they do in Cali and what led up to the Enron collapse.

I'm confused. Are you suggesting Enron collapsed due to California? Please explain.

The energy traders of Enron rigged the system to shut down operational plants to create rolling blackouts to raise prices to make money in a partially (not fully) deregulated system. Pure uninhibited greed by Enron employees.

That is much different from the rules now in California allowing "thermostat" control. I do not know the exact laws there, but here that would be allowed on a voluntary basis and that user would get cost discount which would effectively be shared with the actual users during high demand specifically because less peak price power is needed.

Being part of the IMEA should help prevent some of the California goofiness from happening here.

-1 -- who fully understands the argument that an incentive for certain behaviors can be seen as a punishments for others.

Anyone who does not understand that the grid will be used to actively manage our energy is just plain naive (or worse).

It does not take a conspiracy theorist to believe this ---- just look at what they do in Cali and what led up to the Enron collapse.

You don't have to have to be an engineer to know when you are having something forced down your throat - or when your money is being wasted. The system can be engineered to a level just short of brilliance, and it still isn't a good time to spend money on something the residents aren't interested in having. MORE arrogance doesn't help.

Clearly spending money on a public campaign to explain the benefits and potential drawbacks of a complicated system would be a waste of time. Why, we have all the information we need here!
It's obvious to me that a number of our 'anonymous' folk are electrical engineers, you can sense the experience and level-headed thought coming off their posts [you have to sense it, I fear, since you can't read it there].
I mean, really, what's the most amazing sentence in this thread? I have to admit, I like "We are being turned into organ grinder monkeys." So simple, to the point. Wait... what was the point?

A one page white paper explaining all the good things the smart grid will do for residents like punishing them for running the AC at the wrong time with "peak surcharges" or shutting it off at 6 PM from City Hall because Naperville's power grid is undersized, these are two big benefits for residents.

http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/napervillesun/news/2613706,Naperville-Smart-Grid-NA081810.article

............."Most council members agreed on the need for a dedicated Smart Grid public relations consultant, but said that $460,000 was too much, and directed the city manager to come back with cheaper alternatives." ...........

******************************************************************

Mr Fieseler explains why governments waste money, " so some other government body won't waste it before we do".

................Councilman Robert Fieseler said he agreed, but defended having a public relations consultant dedicated to explaining the complexities of the Smart Grid, adding that the funds being used to pay for the contract could otherwise only be used to pay for more Smart Grid equipment.

"It's not like we can move it and pay for two police officers or pay for another leaf collection," said Councilman Robert Fieseler. This is not that kind of fund."

Quote from Letter to Nap Sun by Engineer

http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/napervillesun/news/opinions/letters/2625388,6_4_NA22_LETTERS_S1-100822.article

........."Councilman Robert Fieseler gave an example of this in one of his statements Tuesday night. He said that if some of your neighbors had full electric or plug-in hybrids and all tried to charge them at the same time, it could cause brown-outs or power failures. He said the smart grid can eliminate this problem.

What he failed to do is explain just how the smart grid could accomplish this. The way it would work is the grid would detect the neighbors charging requirements and then turn off YOUR air conditioning or hot water heater so the inadequate grid could handle charging your neighbor's car."...........

............Maybe we should look at increasing the capacity of the grid so we have the capability of both charging your neighbor's cars and running your hot water heater rather than dump the money into methods of controlling an inadequate and broken system. But that wouldn't give the politicians the control they require to raise your rates and ration your power..............

No, money is not shifted between the two budgets, but that doesn't make it ok to waste money in either one while not utilizing the resources you have wisely. Worst case scenario - absolutely - have you ever waited for something you needed from a government office? Worst case scenario is not an outlandish idea on a project of this magnitude - it is in fact a realistic possibility, whether it has been discussed or not. Frankly, it is the things that haven't been discussed that people should be concerned about. It's fine if you think this whole thing is a great idea - you are certainly welcome to that opinion, but lets not pretend it's not at least a somewhat risky expenditure that is happening without resident approval at a time when spending even one additional dollar displays questionable judgment at best.

By anon on August 22, 2010 8:49 AM

You have too many scattered thoughts to address that are either absolute worst case scenarios or just not consistent with what has been discussed and published. Monies are not shifted back and forth from the Electricity budget to other budget items.

By Anonymous on August 23, 2010 8:45 AM

Right now, the municipality is the electric company. The rates are set by the cost of obtaining the electricity. If the rates become inappropriately elevated for peak, then there should be an uprising. I do not believe that federal control is next, although my shelter-building survival-book reading employee thinks so. I may be wrong. I hope not.

If we go out to eat, and you order steak and wine and I get a salad and water, do not ask me to split the bill evenly. With the new IMEA contract, there will be time-of-use charges to the city. The city likely looked at the numbers and felt the IMEA was better to be a part of than another bulk power purchasing. Correct decision? I do not know.

By sam on August 23, 2010 9:55 AM

Waste is waste and it should not be tolerated. There is some good rationale that encouraging such projects may spur capitalistic ventures to create better and cheaper solar panels and other such products. Not that I think that is the case in the article you cited. The direct ROI is not always the full picture, but a 70-year return on material expected to last 40 years seems a bit improper.

Other posters:

I agree the city ROI numbers are goofy. In particular, the graphs from prior city council presentations talk about decreased outages. Other propaganda from the city talks about what a good job Naperville has already done in decreasing average outrage time, so the "societal benefit" number in the calculations is complete bunk.

It looks like the engineer who wrote the letter to the editor had the same thought -- time-of-use info is not needed for optimal distribution. Let's demand that it be masked for flat-raters.

The remainder of the letter is optional to allow the city to control your thermostat. That financial benefit would be shared by the control-allower (lower rates) AND the flat-raters using power at expensive times since less power from peaker plants would be needed, keeping the cost down for them also.

-1

Anyone see the WSJ piece about solar panels for a fish hatchery located in Ennis, Montana. Like the smart grid, it's a stimulus project.

Biden flew out to trumpet the project. Cost $179,000. Savings: estimated at 75% of the hatchery's electric costs, which are about $3,400/year. So, the savings are estimated to be $2,550/year. Payback will be over 70 years. Estimated lifespan of the installation: 40 years.

You can't make this stuff up.

The question is: did the officials approving this project do the math?

The follow up question: If they did, why did they continue? Why not use the money for something with a positive return?

Has anyone vetted the numbers used to support the smart grid?

I can't find out how much the peak usage penalty is going to be and that's a critical number for any analysis. Does someone have the number? How about the number they guessed it might be when they did the analysis? Perhaps, and this is only a guess, perhaps the numbers are more similar to the hatchery numbers than anyone wants to admit. Perhaps that's part of the education that will be provided by the PR firm.( If there's any money left over after development of the logo!)

We're committed to this project and will have to live with the benefits -- but don't insult me by hiring a PR firm.

One councilman pointed out that hiring a PR firm might make sense since the money can't be redirected to any other project. Brilliant! It doesn't have to be spent at all. If there is $450,000 that isn't needed, give it back to the taxpayers, not to some PR firm!

The "flat rates" will be increased to force everyone onto the variable metered rates; and the "voluntary control of the thermostat" by the utility working under government regulations (laws that no one votes on) will be forced with higher rates for those who don't comply.

The $12 million is a bribe to get our city government to force us under eventual federal regulatory control of our energy use.

Every councilman that votes for the surveillance and control network should resign when the savings don't happen. With the City $150 million in debt after a 10 year tax boom, why wait, the Council should resign in mass now.

Everyone on the staff that recommended the "smart grid" should be fired when the costs go out of control, the rates go up, and the savings don't appear. Just like a real company. Its all about control, not savings.

Anyone that was awake this year, noticed that the FEDs grabbed all of the medical records in the USA so they can play with your health care on a spread sheet, rationing by Federal technocrats is in the pipeline. "Rationing with our eyes open"

Their is no aspect of our lives that the FEDs don't want to micro manage by taking most of your money away and giving you some back for "proper behaviors".

We are being turned into organ grinder monkeys.

-1
So who owns this asset once the project is complete? You don't think the Federal Government gives us 11 million and then says, gee thanks - enjoy your gift right? Plus, who pays if there is a major problem and the project doesn't complete on-time? If I understand things correctly, Naperville misses a deadline, and the whole 22 million is now our own responsibility. Debate whether the Smart Grid in and of itself is useful all you want - as has been said, it was coming anyway, just over the next several years (at a lower overall cost), but instead of waiting, Naperville just couldn't resist the opportunity to stroke it's ego - take the Federal Tax money, and spend money they don't have RIGHT NOW to bring something here that most people either don't care whether they have, or flat out don't want. AND what will happen as a result? More people will lose their jobs (always a boost for a local economy), more services will be cut, maintenance of things that are not smart grid related will be ignored, and so on. Not everyone see's any of that as important - after all, we are Naperville, and awards are the most important thing right? So long as you don't mind long electrical outages, water equipment malfunctions, slow ambulance response times, or broken down fire trucks and police vehicles ..... it's all a GREAT idea! After all, we will all have those way cool shiny new meeters to show off.

La Cucracha,

The thing which you worry about failing is that which has been in the works for 15+ years.

The money in the budget (nb: the electricity budget is separate from the city budget) is for scheduled timely upgrades which would normally have been done to the system which, for the most part, is in place.

__________________

I do not, for a minute, NOT worry about the privacy issues. People can continue to get power at a flat rate. Those who wish to have Time Of Use charges can do so. Those who wish not to do that can pay a flat rate.

This is what the PR team is in charge of -- informing the public of their choices. And creating a logo. Ye-haw! If you read the info from the city council meetings, this has been discussed. The PR team is nothing new; it is part of the implementation plan. Less cost would be better, I agree. The PR team will act like a City of Naperville employee while interacting with the public.

The flat rate might(WILL) be higher than now, since the money collected is to pay for the system/power. If the people using the time of use payment scale are knuckleheads end up using a lot of electricity during the peak times and less off-peak, the flat-raters could come out ahead. Very doubtful, but possible.

Since one advantage of the smart grid is the feedback information mechanism about where to send power in the subgrid, it seems as if the household minute-to-minute usage is not really needed by the city for all households. What is really needed is node information to direct the flow with fewer losses. Of course, someone with too much time on their hands could look at the node power usage and subtract out those who agree to have their information used as a time of use rate to see what all the flat-raters are doing as a group in that node. The node information usage would be better than everyone's smart meter info going to HQ. Certainly outage info by household could still be sent.

Maybe someone with some extra time can propose sub-node masking of individual flat-rate information to the city. That is likely possible without destroying the prime advantages of the system.

-1

-1, when I ask, what happens if this thing fails, I am referring to this particlular project. I think that the ROI assumptions and calculations are fiction.

Your budget rationale is troubling. If it's already budgeted, spend it? Plans change. This is the Council jumping on the bandwagon-for sure. That's a weak argument.

On the other hand, someone has to spend it and it might as well be us. You are correct. The Feds are dying to give it to someone. I guess my issue is that this is really not, in my mind, an absolutely have to have, and now. It's a local stimulus project. Let's call it that. It's keeping city staff, and consultants busy.

Also, the PR plan was a rediculous idea. Yes, communications for these types of things are a key, but that much dough? Can't the city's internal PR staff do this?

This plan has a lot of red flags. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Naperville should mandate smart trash cans and network them with the Smart Grid so the process of issuing the fines to people who don't recycle enough can be automated.

Smart trash cans will monitor their owners and inform on them to the government who will issue the fines.

What's next, "smart cars" that inform on their owners when they return home?

*****************************************
http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/08/city_of_cleveland_to_use_high-.html

High-tech carts will tell on Cleveland residents who don't recycle ... and they face $100 fine

"The move is part of a high-tech collection system the city will roll out next year with new trash and recycling carts embedded with radio frequency identification chips and bar codes."

For the same $25 million, the city could give away 8300 brand new $3000 central air conditioners with the highest efficiency ratings. This would dramatically reduce power consumption city wide all the time not just peak. Energy efficiency is not the goal.

What you will get is the ability for local, state and Federal government officials to fiddle with your thermostat according to the latest social engineer theories while they monitor you usage by device in your home to the nearest 5 minute time span.

Things that the surveillance and control network guarantees are:

* more high paying network jobs for the utilities
* more "green jobs" and hundreds of billions in revenue for the equipment providers who spend millions bribing officials in DC
* More government databases tracking your every move
* More government control over your life
* An air conditioner that the government shuts off when you get home from work and turn it on.
* Increased equipment and operating expenses for the city of Naperville
* Cost overruns, if the Carillon is any indication expect 200-300% cost overruns and no benefits.

The reason the City Council votes unanimously for unpopular laws is to make it harder to pick them off in the elections, so vote against all incumbents.

I notice that today's Sun did not report whether the council approved $450,000 for a public relations campaign to support the smart grid over the next three years......

For a project supposedly so beneficial, it seems odd that we need to spend $450,000 to sell it to customers who have no choice in the matter anyway.

A total waste of money, in my opinion. I'm concerned that it is the first of many dubious expenditures for this project. This idea represents 2% of the project budget and was recommended by our city staff......

What bothers me on this grid crap is the duplicity of the city leaders on it.

As they were busy wringing their hands over budget cuts and things we would have to do without (including our own money via taxes), they were working behind our backs to commit to spend bazillions of OUR tax dollars on something we were told nothing of, of somewhat questionable value, and for those with a conspiratorial mind something which can be used to spy upon us.

A prime example? They elected to delay their latest attempt to fix the flooding problems in the Springhill subdivion due to "budget concerns", yet they immediatley went on to spend/commit multiple millions to the grid!

Keep in mind that the flooding in Springhill is NOT inconvenient, it is dangerous!

They have already had one child swept into the storm drains after a big rain, yet our City Council appears to be more interested in a high-tech toy that tells us energy is cheaper in off-hours (Duh! Whooda thunk it?) than in the basic safety of it's citizens.

What bothers me the most about the "smart grid" isn't what Bill Mego did or didn't say. Fact is Bill has an opinion and so does everybody else. The only difference between everybody else and Bill is that for some reason that isn't really quite clear someone at the Naperville Sun decided they should occasionally give him a few column inches. Fact is the same powers to be could also grant Scott Huber the same privilege and, in my opinion, they are really close to being an intellectual match with each other and Bill in case you haven't taken note... not too many people pay a whole lot of attention to anything Scott has to say... so enjoy your 15 minutes while the light is still on.

Now that I've gotten that off my chest let me get back to what is bothering me. What bothers me is that there were a large number of employees in city hall working on this grant for some time and there were city council members who either knew or approved of city workers going after this grant and yet the citizens were kept in the dark until after the grant was awarded. This strikes me as fundamentally wrong. The second part that bothers me is the cost, especially at a time when we are struggling to balance the city budget. It seems to me that we need to change legislation so that city hall has to operate more like the school districts. If the school district wanted to spend $11 million dollars there would be a referendum and we would have a chance to vote on whether or not we agree. It strikes me as fundamentally wrong that the city council can obligate us not only for this much money but also for a technology system that many might not like or want with absolutely no say and no vote on the matter.

Maybe we should do away with home rule because it scares me to think what else this merry bunch of insiders have up their collective sleeves that we don't know about.

OOPS Moderator please post this version wich has the link to the article

DOE smart grid cost $1.5 trillion, not clear who will pay for it. NE USA is the beneficiary.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/innovation/08/09/smart.grid/index.html?hpt=C1

........Building a national smart grid "won't be cheap and it wont be easy," acknowledged Amin. Much of it could be completed as soon as 2030 at a cost of up to $1.5 trillion, according to the Department of Energy. It's unclear who would foot the entire bill, but the Obama administration has committed about $4 billion in investment grants....................

...........Who's got the juice?

Some of the most reliable utilities are in the heartland states of Iowa, Minnesota, Missouri, the Dakotas, Nebraska and Kansas.

In those states, the power is out an average of only 92 minutes per year, according to a 2008 Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory study. On the other end of the spectrum, utilities in New York Pennsylvania and New Jersey averaged 214 minutes of total interruptions each year. These figures don't include power outages blamed on tornadoes or other disasters...................

..........."Austin is two to three years ahead of everybody else," said Carvallo, now chief strategy officer for the smart grid software firm Grid Net.

He points to a volunteer program that offers free thermostats to customers who allow the utility to remotely control their air conditioners during specific months and hours. This way, thousands of power-gulping air conditioners can be cycled off for a short time when electricity was needed elsewhere............

Not to be more negative, but what happens if this thing fails?

What thing? The grid upgrades which have been going on for over 17 years? This is not a jump on the bandwagon decision. The reason Naperville got the funds was that it was ready to use them.

The Feds gave us $11m, and somehow we justified spending $11m more. Please read the prior discussion I linked before. $8.4 million was already budgeted for system upgrades. So not $11m more in spending. The city doesn't get $11m from the feds unless it is spending $11m of its own. So $2.6M added over time plus the bond expense of accelerated usage of part of the budgeted 5-year capital outlay. In return for the extra (approx) $3m investment, the city gets $11m from the feds to complete a project which has been over 15 years in the making.

see my prior comments: I get it that $11m is not free money. Unfortunately, sometimes an opportunity cannot be passed up due to despising massive federal deficit spending. That $11m would be spend on a smart grid project somewhere. Might as well be us.

-1

If you look at the numbers, there's no way that this thing makes any sense. The Feds gave us $11m, and somehow we justified spending $11m more. Stimulus money for consultants and staff, that's all it is. Now is the time to separate the electric department from the city. Have a separate Board, and spearate Director. Run it like a real business, not something that politicians dabble in for fun.

Not to be more negative, but what happens if this thing fails? What's the plan? Move on? Oh well? Although, we can always spin it as R&D and write it off!

Boston again highlights his weaknesses at being able to read (limited) or his high degree of aprtisanship.

I never said they were the brightest of the brightest --- IDID point out the polls that were taken (3 sources, by the way) that showed the bias being shown against the TEA movement people (toothless, out of work, dumb hillbillies, etc) was in fact wrong and that they had a higher general education and income level than the national averages.

However, the biased hack known as Boston prefers to attempt ridicule and the such rather than actually use the availablo data.

That is okay, though. The more the simple folk like Boston underestimate the TEA movement, and ridicule it, and attackit, the more of a let down tay will be in for come November.

Instead of understanding there is SOMETHING causing the people to revolt and speak up (many if not most for the first time in their lives) against a poorply-led government with sad policies, Boston and his ilk prefer to blindly attack change and defend the status quo of failure that represents our leadership.

gr8d8,
Yep. You are right. TEA party members sure are the brightest of the bright!
Check out this site and see for yourself...

http://thecapitolfaxblog.com/2010/08/06/dearest-tea-party-members/

The smart grid, smart meters , and cost overruns by the IMEA are all intended to justify rate increases . This whole thing will be so confusing that the end user will not know what the truth is.Our council is already clueless and the electric department is trying to justify their massive staff .
Taxpayers watch your pockets .

Peak pricing is economic rationing for profits and to "nudge" social behavior change. It will discriminate against the homebound, disabled, retired, home hospice, and families with young children at home. The peak hours, 2 PM - 7PM is peak family time. Kids and parents sharing dinner, doing homework, doing chores and relaxing. Peak pricing is anti-family.

Here's a suggestion. The City of Naperville, public schools and colleges should shut down during these "peak hours," to save taxpayers money. Then they can reopen at 7PM until midnight. Shut off their air conditioning, shut down their computers, turn off their lights! They can all work the third shift, to save energy. If business will have to lay off second shifts to avoid draconian power bills, the local and state governments need to do the same.

See Page 11 for privacy chart!

http://www.dora.state.co.us/puc/docketsdecisions/DocketFilings/09I-593EG/09I-593EG_Spring2009Report-SmartGridPrivacy.pdf

It seems that no matter what the topic is the words "Cost Overuns" always seem to pop up.

In the real world, contractors/vendors have to propose a bid. Are they not held to them ??? It doesn't matter whether it is the smart grid or the riverwalk. Isn't anyone held responsible for a bid and held to that bid.

I have heard time after time about cost overruns with the city not to mention our out of control school board.

Can someone elighten me on how cost overruns work. Does everyone who works for the city or our wacked out and over rated school system have a card Blanc?

Sorry -1.

I can understand your argument for not subsidizing the use of electricity at peak times. (Do you know that for many years, citizens of Naperville subsidized large commercial users of power since the city offered them much lower rates and residents picked up the difference? I believe that practice ended during the last round of rate changes. My point is, don't assume the rate setters will give you the outcome you expect.

As to your comment about phasing in the grid, keep in mind that the budget was about $13 million over several years. Now, we are spending $20 million to do the same work in a rush. So, apparently, there is an extra cost to do this; or the original budget was low by 50%; or the projects are apples and oranges. Perhaps it's a combination of all three.

Experience shows that government projects frequently run substantially over budget. I know it wasn't originally a government project, but how much has our $2 million carillon cost to date -- something in excess of $6 million. Our 1% SECA tax to help pay for it has increased and a portion of those revenues --earmarked for cultural events -- has already been diverted to general revenues. Even now, the council is considering diverting more of those revenues to the general fund. So, we end up with a nice carillon, but we also have a permanent tax increase in the package. Nice!

Sadly, this is an example of how government works today.

Once again, I'll ask the obvious question about the smart grid: How can I adjust my energy usage to reduce daytime consumption without huge investments in new appliances? Answer: I cannot. Where is the promised saving?
How will the City reduce it's peak consumption of electricity? How will the hospitals and schools reduce their peak use? I don't think they will be able to and we'll all be "subsidizing" those higher costs one way or another.

But, we'll be able boast about our state-of-the-art smart grid. Just as we tout our support of wind energy, even though not one kilowatt of wind energy finds it way to Naperville.

Skepticism is healthy. I'm old enough to remember when the promise of nuclear power was "electricity too cheap to meter." If the experts had been right about that one, today's experts wouldn't be talking about smart grids and wind power today.

Please check out the previous discussion of the smart grid. My concerns were mentioned back here.

I gotta say I am a bit confused by the TEA partiers.

When electricity WILL cost more at peak times due to spot pricing of natural gas and peaker plant supplementation, should everyone pay for this or should only those actually using the expensive product pay for it? Are you really suggesting that I should subsidize someone else's consumption when there is a method for proper accounting of usage?

To rebut an argument in the Letters to the Editor today...Boulder likely had to do all of its smart grid at once. If you read the propaganda from the city, the city has been building a smart grid for years so there should be no huge cost overruns as much of the infrastructure (grid) is in place.

Kudos to the city for actually including this piece.

Apparently Boston Harbor [see post on July 31, 2010 2:45 PM] doesn't read much. Either that, ot he is a little weak in the area of "definitions".

There is nothing arrogant about posting data, in this case data that came from a series of polls taken earlier this year. The facts I posted were the result of those polls.

Sorry to cnfuse you with some fatcs, Boston --- As RR said, facts can be pesky things.

Now, your "value system" seems to infer that by being better educated and making more $$$ it makes one the "best of the best". You said that, not me. It reflects the weakness of your value system if that is your only parm of best!

The only real arrogance here so far is your refusal of data, your instand attack on me, and your left-handed attack on the TEA people.

Maybe you should try reading a bit next time.

For ALL of you that think we Tea Partiers are a "conspiracy" group, think again! We are patriots who are FED UP with the spending and deficits and freedoms lost! We have taken the time to research, read, what is ACTUALLY happening in our Great America! The corruption of the political class is taking over our country to make us dependent on big government and keep them in their elite places of rule. This "Stalin-Grid" is nothing more than a Green Jobs Czar to CONTROL our lives. These meters will quadruple our costs for energy - we will be at the mercy of them telling us when too much is being consumed and they will lower our resources, hike our billing and control our very existence.

Anyone who has researched communist Europe would see the "common" communes they built and dictated the living style of a country controlled by government!!! Wake up America! Time to STOP the bleeding and the control these politicians are enforcing.

By the way - how's that $3M Bell working for you? How many jobs could have been created with that money? How many mouths could have been fed? I NEVER understood that blatant waste of money! Oh, and how's your property tax bill? Did it go down like the values of our homes? Read the tea leaves everyone - do not depend on partisan columns - research and read what is going on. Remember to vote them all out!

Here is a win-win for government epmployees. Another project that will need the guidance of government. More projects = higher pay.

Higher electric rates wil be needed to finance the capital expenditure of smart grid. Higher electric rates will also bring in more utility tax money.

It is win win for "sanctuary" government. Always right, always arrogant, always knowing what is best.

There's a saying: If it's not broke, don't fix it.

Seems like we are paying a lot of money to fix something that isn't broke and that 'cost' is going to be passed onto consumers ten fold.

No one comes to you to "save you money".

I drove by the new wind farm near Dekalb today; no wind, no mills turning, no power being generated. It would be great to have a switch to turn off all of the air conditioners until the wind starts back up.

Don Quixote where are you?

By Anonymous on July 31, 2010 2:33 PM

Another stupid waste of tax payer funds if you ask me. The whole idea of paying money for wind energy was and is a stupid idea. The city bought into that stupid power plant idea that is going to cost consumers way more in electric costs, now this stupid smart meter idea. Why are politicians so dumb and can't see the forest for the trees? Why do they continually fall for the lastest STUPID green idea that turns out NOT to be Green afterall?

gr8d8 wrote...
"In almost every case, once researched I have found that these folks have never attended a rally, yet are so sure of what happens at them and who attends them. Their biases and non-diversity does not appear to bother them at all as they continue to insult and belittle those who attend. Facts don't impede them as they ignore the data, which shows that the TEA attendees have a higher average education and income than non-attendees."
TEA ATTENDEES HAVE A HIGHER EDUCATION AND INCOME THAN NON-ATTENDEES. Right. Only the best of the best of the world are TEA party members. They know all and make all than the rest of us. Just a fine example of how intolerant they are of others. They know more, make more and are better than the rest of us so we should all just shut-up and do what they tell us to do.
What an arrogant statement by gr8d8...

Another stupid waste of tax payer funds if you ask me. The whole idea of paying money for wind energy was and is a stupid idea. The city bought into that stupid power plant idea that is going to cost consumers way more in electric costs, now this stupid smart meter idea. Why are politicians so dumb and can't see the forest for the trees? Why do they continually fall for the lastest STUPID green idea that turns out NOT to be Green afterall?

SUN editors,

Thank you much for your July 28, 2010 11:54 AM post.

It has been tedious dealing with the immature, 5th-grade boy humor of those who insist on using the perjorative for the TEA party.

In almost every case, once researched I have found that these folks have never attended a rally, yet are so sure of what happens at them and who attends them. Their biases and non-diversity does not appear to bother them at all as they continue to insult and belittle those who attend. Facts don't impede them as they ignore the data, which shows that the TEA attendees have a higher average education and income than non-attendees.

[As a related aside,Mr Mego (a center of this story) is a major purveyor of said perjorative.]

Now, for the real subject --- the "smart" grid: It seems like an awful lot of money to pay in a crippled economy, when taxes are busting everyone's budgets, for something that reinforces what we already know (non-peak usage is best for both costs and the grid).

Just because the Feds, through our taxes, is paying half is not by itself a reason to buy something. A discount does not validate any expense!. We really need to be told what the specific, over-all cost savings will be once fully implemented, along with a definition of full implementation.

Otherwise, we are just spending because we can.

Mego stated: “Plus, the Smart Grid is going to save us a boatload of money, at least 10 or 20 times what it cost.” This is simply not true. The calculations presented by the city show the system will show a total savings of $30 million over 15 years. (see http://www.naperville.il.us/smartgrid.aspx) If the savings projected by the city are correct then the boatload of money Mr. Mego refers to will arrive sometime after Jan 1, 2100.
I would also suggest Mr. Mego might look at the smart grid project of Boulder CO before embracing our city council’s action without some investigative reporting. In Boulder the smart grid involves some 44,000 meters, 13,000 less than Naperville. It had a projected cost of under $20 million when proposed in 2008. Thus far the costs are in the $100 million range and the utility company, Xcel, is looking for rate increases to help offset the cost. Who will be paying for the cost overruns in Naperville?

Yes, the smart grid is getting an all out public relations push from the very staff that has determined it's a great idea.

In my experience, great ideas sell themselves.

I'm not concerned about the government spying on me or any of the other Orwellian issues. My concerns are far more basic. In order to work, the premise is that peak use will cost more money than non-peak use. Well, I can run my dishwasher in the middle of the night. (If I shell out a couple hundred bucks to buy one with a timer.) But the laundry suggestion is silly. How are my clothes going to get moved from the washer into the dryer while I'm asleep? How are the clothes in the dryer going to hung and folded while I sleep. Or will I have to iron them all as a result of them sitting in the dryer. I can do that in the daytime, using premium priced electricity. Where's the saving?

My largest usage is for A/C and the need for that is in the daytime -- I really can't run my A/C at night and save the cool air until the next afternoon, so, I'll pay much more than I do now to run my A/C when it's needed. How about offices, city hall, etc -- their peak usage is all in the daytime when rates will be highest. And who pays those costs? Taxpayers and employers. Who will benefit?

Finally, the real issue is total cost. Some studies indicate that for any meaningful shift in consumption to occur, the penalty for peak use has to be in excess of 25% of the current cost. Think about that.....even the Pew organization, in a report highly favorable to the smart grid concept, expects total customer costs to increase as a result of smart grids. (Link: www.pewclimate.org › Climate TechBook)

So, here we have our city government spending $20 million taxpayer dollars on an untested idea, claiming savings that are unlikely to materialize and spending more money to convince us it's a good idea.

And yes, as stated by a previous poster, the costs of the clean coal plant the city is helping to fund are expected to be more than double the estimate. Someone has to pay those costs and we're locked in for 28 years, so it seems pretty obvious who's going to pay. No one expected that....the same thought process is bringing us the smart grid.....

I'm glad Mr. Mego is a believer, he'll have less anguish than the realists in the city.

Just another case of Big Brother again. The people of Naperville have no one to blame other than themselves as the keep electing these arrogant, can't handle money, and think that they know what is best councilmen and the Mayor.

Here is an interesting spin. Here is the future with the smart grid. If this were to actually work (but it won't)and energy usage were to actually go down, the utility companies like the gas companies (shell, exon etc.) will say that they are not making enough profit and raise the rates.

Just like the Hybrid Cars ---- what a farce. Replacement parts are out of sight and if everyone had one and consumption would drop, gas would go to $40.00 per gallon so the gas companies could still make their outlandish profits. And please don't tell me about the envirorment !!

Are you enviromentalist wackos happy now !! Any how about the city council ?? Are you happy now? And to think that most ,if not all of you, on the city council have college educations.

Oh, yes. Tea Party Member. How PC of the Sun.

Oh the TEA BAGGERS are going to love this forum...
Here comes the "big brother is going to control the outlets in my house" misinformation brigade!

Unfortunately, Mr. Mego continues his trend of using inflammatory labels for people who don't agree with his enlightened views.

Mr. Mego chose to use the word "paranoid" to describe those who don't agree with his enlightened views; based on his earlier writings, I believe he must have been edited down to just one inflammatory label.

Since the President supports the "smart grid" surveillance and behavior modification system, I'm sure Mr. Mego would have preferred to say that anyone who doesn't support additional monitoring, data collection and tax collection devices in their home is a.......

"paranoid-white-male-Christian-Southern-racist-cracker-tea-bagger" or PWMCSRCTB as they are commonly known in academia.

Since there are less vowels than consonants, they have been placed on the endangered species list; and, are unavailable for new acronyms without a special permit from the EPA.

Savings from the "smart grid" will be realized when you are fined out of existence if you do your laundry between 6am and 9pm, or dare to turn your thermostat below what the Greens think it should be.

Conceived by convicted con artists (Enron), supported by the far far far left, and was to be implemented by a hand-picked (by Michelle Obama) self-described Revolutionary-Marxist Green Jobs Czar...........

It must be good!

As to line surges causing my house wires to melt and my appliances to explode, which Mr. Mego is so worried about, there is already a little green box in my back yard called a transformer with circuit breakers that handles this.

If Mr. Mego is worried about not being able to use his phone during a power outage; this problem was solved a hundred years ago by the phone companies, it's called use a land line phone which gets it's power from the phone lines which supply -48 volts DC, which the phone company calls "battery".

I'll sleep soundly tonight knowing that I still have a little bit of privacy and freedom, at least temporarily.

If the only concerns were the privacy issues Mr. Mego outlined in his column, the smart grid would be a great idea. Unfortunately, those are not the only concerns - and there is one piece of the article that is completely inaccurate. Mr. Mego says it is going to save us a lot of money? Really? NOTHING I have read has said that is a given - everything the City has published says it has the potential to save people money somewhere down the road. Hmmmmmmm and we spent how much NOW, when we don't have enough money to fund ambulances and police, in order to POTENTIALLY save money later???? All of this, the smart grid and so on, would have been done over time, BUT since the Government offered us money (and they will ultimately control our asset as a result) and we are NAPERVILLE - just can't turn down an award - we had to do it NOW, and under the Governments time frame instead of our own. The result? We spend about $2,000,000 we don't have. The rush in all this then was what exactly? Oh yeah, ego.

Oh, and even if the Smart Grid does do all it hopes to and does actually save you money, your bills won't be going down. Check the news elsewhere and see how far over budget the coal plant that the City will be buying power from in the near future is already over budget. Smart Grid definitely won't save you what that is going to cost you - no matter how you spin it. That of course is without even thinking about your water bill - which already went up once this year, and more is expected.

If you want to really know what a good idea the Smart Grid is for Naperville, watch the next City Council meeting and see how much they spend on a PR Consultant to convince you it's a good idea.