For anyone interested in the Water Street proposal I will be making a 10 minute presentation at the Naperville Area Homeowners Confederation September meeting this Saturday in rooms B&C of the Naperville Municipal Center, 400 S. Eagle Street.

The meeting will start with networking and coffee at 8:00 AM. The formal meeting begins at 8:30 AM and the main topic will be Electricity, including the Smart Grid and Renewable Energy initiatives.

Read the City Council Workshop PDF that came out a few minutes ago..

The hotel tax is receipts are down 40%, this is the perfect time for the City to subsidize the insiders to build another hotel downtown and help drive the existing hotels further down in bookings.

Go go go go!

http://tinyurl.com/2dkze74.

Somehow this is Obama's fault.

JQP,

Can't provide examples on GP. They are all from past and current city employees who need to be protected.

I'm surprised that Miller is not well thought of. My experiences with him have been good. Helped our Homeowners group out a couple of times. If not KM or GP than who? Krause-please, no. I heard a rumor about Peg Price running again.

Anon,

Can't prove it here one way or another can we? But if Miller was in their good graces you'd think he'd had a better showing then 4th. place last time.

If you're serious about it ask around the WTRO.

Political Junkie on September 8, 2010 10:51 AM
Anon,

Talk to someone active in the WTRO about it.

xxxxxxxxxxx

that's what I thought, easy to jab, harder to prove!! this is an anonymous web site - don't you have any examples?

Anon,

Talk to someone active in the WTRO about it.

La Cucracha wrote:

Petty, selfish, mean... and you'd never know it.

Would you care to provide any examples?

Just curious.

-JQP

PJ,

Totally agree that GP can beat anyone. George is just that bad. Can't run a meeting, can't make a decision, bumbling, stumbling, weak, not a leader, really not as nice a guy as everyone thinks. Petty, selfish, mean... and you'd never know it.

Please, just go home. Stay home. Stay on the Tollway board, collect your pension. You can win if you want to. That would be for you... not us. We need something more than a guy in a little suit.

Political Junkie on September 6, 2010 10:59 PM
Kenn's problems is he's burned a lot of bridges around town, ESPECIALLY the local Wheatland Township Republican Party folks.

xxxxx

PJ, can you give any examples? He seemed to fit in nicely with this crowd (WTRP) at their golf outing recently.

Cuca, 8 and Joe,

My above post was not an endorsement of Pradel by any means.

My point is that the 100% increase in the cost of government, including schools, is driving businesses that can relocate to do so, preferably out of Illinois; and when they do the math after Free Trade Bush and Free Trade Obama, move out of the USA to countries with no standards, no workers rights and little to no corporate taxes where the citizens live like dogs (our future).

If Miller wants my vote, he needs to come up with something different than making the Naperville elite richer than they already are at everyone else's expense.

If he only offers status quo with minor tweaks, then why vote for him?

By Anonymous on September 5, 2010 10:48 AM

What exactly is Miller passionate about if anything, and what exactly would he do differently than Pradel?

Kids,

Seriously, George will be mayor for as long as he wants to run. End of story.

As for Kenn, there seems to be some forgetfulness goin' on here. In the last election Kenn came in 4th, that's 4th! in votes. Doug was first, followed by Paul and then Judy. Pretty sad showing when you are running for re-election and two newcomers beat your numbers.

Kenn's problems is he's burned a lot of bridges around town, ESPECIALLY the local Wheatland Township Republican Party folks.

George will win in a romp, and make Kenn look pretty silly for ever trying. I predict it will be worse than the last election where George beat Doug 70/30.

I totally lost all respect for Pradel a few years ago when I was attending a funeral for a close friend who passed suddenly. The wake was held at one of the better known Naperville funeral homes.

George showed up and started working the crowd, glad handing everyone. The problem was that 99% of those present weren't even from Naperville and didn't have a clue who he was or why he was there. Even the family who were new to Naperville, but not active in the community in any way, were wondering why he was there since he didn't know a single person.

To see the mayor pandering to a crowd he thought would vote for him and end up embarrassing himself like that was kind of pitiful. I can't confirm it but one of the employees told me that George just shows up at quite a few funerals like that. I'm not sure if I should find that kind behavior strange but I know it creeped out several of my friends that day.

As far as George being coached and not being able to make an independent decision I would concur. George is definitely a bobble head for whatever the city staff slides in front of him and he has never voted against anything the police department wanted. If you watch council deliberations George never speaks first on an issue and only tips his hand as to the position he is taking after feeling out the rest of the council. In the vast majority of council votes you will find George's vote safely tucked in with the majority. It is a rare, rare exception to see George vote No on an agenda item that ends up being passed by the council.

Hiding in the middle of the pack and going along with the clear majority is simply trying to find safety in numbers and is not my definition of any form of true leadership. Heck a 10 year old could figure out how to vote like that as well. If George doesn't have what it takes to represent the citizens regardless what the liberals who fill the cubicles at city hall want then what in the world are voters doing reelecting him?

Sorry, Miller is cut from the same cloth as George and if you listened to what George had to say about Miller it was obvious that at best we would be getting a younger version of the same thing. Sorry, but I don't think I could stomach Miller for 1 term much less 3 or 4.

There has got to be some fresh new faces in Naperville that can help drive the mediocrity out of our city council. Our first priority is to find someone who has a strong financial background, knows how to cut costs, and balance a budget.

I know there are some who love and some who hate Furstenau and I don't want to rehash any of what has already been stated 1,000 times on other threads other than when it comes to city hall staff Dick has been the lone, single voice demanding more responsibility, more accountability, etc. and doesn't just sit there nodding his head like a well medicated drone like the rest of the bobble heads up there. There are some who would like to see Furstenau gone and if the voters give him the heave ho then, IMO, we are going to loose the one contrarian who dares to question and challenge and if there isn't someone like him to take his place then we all better become well prepared with out tax dollars to fund whatever city hall staffers want to shove down our throat next. The "Smart Grid" is just the tip of that iceberg.

La Cuca,
Miller couldn't lead a charge to the grocery store. What has he ever takien a leadership role on? Oh ya, keeping Ribfest where it is! Big exchange Club member so he was just keeping his peeps happy. Otherwise he really is just "George lite."
Wherli can rub me the wrong way sometimes but I like his stance on SECA as well as holding the line on the overall budget. I would put him in the top two as far as councilmen go. He will get re-elected without a doubt.

Miller had about six people with him in the parade today... pretty pathetic to watch that go by...

For Anonymous on September 5, 2010 10:48 AM:

I do not require passion --- I prefer intellect , knowledge, and the ability to develop and drive positive change. If both are there, great.

I believe Miller does have passion, but if you define passion as jumping up and down, fist pumping, fake embarassment when you get young girls to kiss your cheeks,and turning the word "Naperville" into a child's rallying cry, then you are right, he does not have it.

I do not think Pradel has, or can, do that, He is a great cheerleader and has sat in the seat during a great time for Naperville, but he was handed a slick-working, well-oiled machine from past Mayors (starting with Rybicki).

Naperville is seeing something now they have not seen in 3 decades --- a true economic downturn that is severely affecting us!

Does Pradel have power? Of course! He has created a lot of fear in town . He is great at bullying when needed. However, as I said, I prefer intellect , knowledge, and the ability to develop and drive positive change. Passion helps, but only if the other qualitied exist.

I agree with your comments on ruining areas by allowing what seems like any type of building at any size as long as it is super-sized.

I stopped by Miller’s gathering at Seager Park the other week and engaged him in a conversation about the subjects you mention. I would recommend you do the same. His platform will be on creating jobs and bringing business back to the area, to real budgeting that proactively addresses spending via a balance of inflation and revenues, etc.

Thus, I openly will say that there is NOTHING about Miller to suggest he is a slower speaking version of Pradel. In fact, I believe we need to NOT re-elect Pradel and that Miller is a clear & viable replacement (and a major step-up)!

I would even call Miller the "anti-george"!

I'm not sure we're talking about the same people. I've seen Miller offer solutions to problems, and provide some needed critical thinking. I really don't want a clown Mayor that belts out Helllloooooo Naaaaperville, everytime I see him. As for Pradel's problem solving, selecting from options... you've got to be kidding. He's totally coached. He hasn't made an independant decision in his career.

I like George, he's just not what we need anymore. When we had cash, and developers built everywhere, who cared. Now we need a leader. Maybe the voters won't think that Miller is the guy. But I do think that voters should be thinking about who they don't want, over and over again this election.

What exactly is Miller passionate about if anything, and what exactly would he do differently than Pradel?

If nothing else, Pradel is energetic and can be highly effective when he realizes that there is a problem and is offered viable solutions to choose from. He has more power than you think.

Pradel (and the City Council) have been highly effective at following the lead of the Naperville Developers (look at the name plate on the $9 million dollar publicly funded Carillon if there is any doubt about who runs Naperville) in developing the green fields.

Now that the City is out of green fields to develop, the momentum is to take exiting properties and neighborhoods and treat them like green fields.

A good example of how the City Council has gone cannibal with the tax payers is the rape of the downtown neighborhoods with houses that completely dwarf the surrounding properties thus destroying their privacy, flooding their yards, and robbing them of their sunlight.

The City Council and Mayor's office need to think of ways to drive down the cost of living in Naperville, not increasing it. Many of our blue chip companies have already abandoned not only Naperville and Illinois but the USA for China and India. Why? Cost of doing business and governments that either don't understand business or are hostile to it.

What I would like to hear from City Council is how to cut costs, how to eliminate the $150 million credit card tab they ran up during a 20 year economic boom cycle, how to drive down the cost of the schools instead of endorsing every new massive expansion of budgets as long as it will yield a nice photo for a real estate brochure.

If the City's public unions can't understand that there is no more money, perhaps we need a new plan that drastically reduces their numbers and back fills them with volunteers, part timers and school vouchers.

If Mr Miller offers only a slower speaking version of Mr Pradel's policies, what value does he add if any?

******************************************************************

By gr8d84f8 on September 1, 2010 11:11 AM

I think Miller is worth a serious look.

After all, we have re-elected a "mascot" 4 times!

Miller has good experience both inside and outside of Naperville. Given our city is about 50/50 Dem v. Republican, a RINO doesn't bother me at all.

I suggest we all vote, and we vote with knowledge, and we vote for someone who first understands theproblems facing Naperville TODAY and second has solutions for those problems.

FM and all, my take on the Council rundown:

Hinterlong: Out, not smart.
Wherli: Out, in it for himself.
Boyagian: Not running. Prolly the smartest councilman, but tries to run the show. If we had a real Mayor, he'd have a gavel in his forehead.
Furstinau: Get out! Worst elected official in town-no,the State, and that's a TALL order. Claims to be the people's watchdog but wastes more money than he saves-yep. Votes against things he doesn't understand-absolutely. Small minded egomaniac-yes. Thanks FM. Yes, not only that, but corrupt.
Pradel: Out. Not smart. Small minded, but will probably win-agreed.
Krause: Toally out. He's a dummy.
Miller: Best Counciman. Smart, has a soul, classy. I disagree on the leadership comment. But something to look at.
Fesieler: Hmmm, keep. Smart. Strange.
Broadhead: Very good. Smart, classy, thoughtful.

I disagree on the lesser of two evils comment regarding Pradel and Miller. Pradel is terrible. I say, pay him something to go out an cut ribbobns while others run the government. He's really not a nice guy. No class. Please, let's send him home. He needs to go home.

I like Miller. I think he brings new thinking and energy to the office.

Sun, how about a new blog on the Mayor thing?

La Cuc

Choosing between Miller or Pradel is definitely a situation of picking the lesser of two evils. I've looked at both of them for quite a while and I don't take either of them seriously. Both get low marks for leadership and their ability to manage a budget.

For what it's worth, I've been saying for years that Pradel would serve Naperville far better in his self-appointed role as head cheerleader by working for the chamber of commerce. Considering the demographics of Naperville we need a mayor who brings similar class and dignity to the office. His hick schtick might play well in a small, county town but it increasingly wears thin here. Personally I'm growing weary of meeting people from other areas who recognize Naperville with a comment like... "Your mayor is such a clown..." Is that the best we can be known for... a having a mayor who is a clown?

Hopefully, the voters of Naperville will have a third or fourth mayoral candidate to consider come election day. It is not too late for a fresh new face with no ties to the past to still get in this race.

The truth is:
The people who are truly qualified to do this job well, have the knowledge needed, the experience running a business that is fiscally sound, and would have the right priorities in the position, all have jobs that do not allow for the time to devote to being a councilman.

I think Miller is worth a serious look.

After all, we have re-elected a "mascot" 4 times!

Miller has good experience both inside and outside of Naperville. Given our city is about 50/50 Dem v. Republican, a RINO doesn't bother me at all.

I suggest we all vote, and we vote with knowledge, and we vote for someone who first understands theproblems facing Naperville TODAY and second has solutions for those problems.

Seems like we would be better off to clean house and elect a fresh new set of faces. Better to take a gamble on a set of new faces with no experience than any of the so-called experienced council members since there isn't a single one who really rings the bell in terms of competency.

Way too many Democrats in a Republican town. Huge, huge void in leadership. Not a single, true leader in the whole council. Severe lack of management skills, especially financial management skills across the entire board. Terrible planning skills and there isn't a collective council vision for the future of Naperville. Worst off the residents be damned and the whole lot cow down to the developers and the merchants. Yeah, we know who provides for campaign contributions, but the council must have forgotten WHO VOTES!!!!

Clearly the existing board is a collective text book example of electing people at their respective elections who were "the lesser of two evils" at the time. Which means if someone just a bit more qualified had ran for office none of these clowns would have gotten elected. What will it take to get the best and brightest of Naperville to run for elected office?

Giving up a bit of "experience" with this bunch isn't giving up much at all. I say vote for some new blood and some fresh faces. Truth be known a brand new board would be hard pressed to screw things up worse than the existing council.

Oops. Forgot Miller...
RINO just like Krause. Will spend money on anything that will get him votes.

Anon @ 3:31 on Aug 30,
Council has no "official" designation at to what party they are in... but since you brought it up...
Hinterlong, Union plumber BA. Democrat.
Wherli, Republican. Never voted for a tax increase, supports across the board pay-freezes and is the only one who wants to eliminate SECA.
Boyagian, Republican.
Ferstenau, Claims to be a R but is really just clueless. Claims to save us money... only to sue the people who elected him for his own benefit. Not smart about the budget, just a chizler.
Pradel, can't say "no" to save his life. Solid Democrat.
Krause, Republican In Name Only!! Wanted to solve the budget problem last year by INCREASING the real estate tax! Wants to do nothing with SECA because he thinks it helps people... how about helping out those that pay the stupid tax?
Fesieler, Democrat. Just ask him.
Broadhead, Democrat. Active in the Naperville township Democratic Party.

Sam,

I am all for tax breaks for corporations. That is how you make something happen. Take Batavia for instance. That place could be just like Geneva. There could be three awesome towns right in a row feeding off one another. But they don't try to attract any new business with tax incentives. Not smart.

As far as wasting the money. That is our job to keep these people honest. And vote them out if need be. I have not looked at a Naperville budget since I've lived here. I probably should. I will always agree with you that less spending is the way to go on every level of government.

One point I forgot to mention is jobs...building the hotel, running the hotel, and hopefully added jobs needed at local restaurants, coffee shops, etc. from the overflow.

Other Anonymous - I would love to say I have money riding on this but I don't. And as far as a visitor traveling out to a highway hotel....that is not even the same feel as staying in a downtown type of hotel where you can wake up and go to Egg Harbor or stop by the local coffee shop without driving.

Who cares about the height? It doesn't matter. Our little skyline will be fine.

Anonymous on August 30, 2010 3:31 PM
Keep all the Democrats or undefined and fire all of the Republicans?
_________________

Anon: I wasn't aware that our city council members designated political affiliations? Did I miss something? I know that some of them attend rallies and political functions, maybe they make their political choices clear by this type of activity.

By furstenau's mistress on August 30, 2010 8:12 AM

Keep all the Democrats or undefined and fire all of the Republicans?

Anonymous 5678, you make some valid points.

Yes, the new hotel will bring tax revenue. How will the city spend it -currently, they seem to waste a large percentage of the tax revenue they collect. We don't need more revenue, we need less spending, in my opinion. The hotel will also bring new costs, which will eat into those new revenues. Extra demands on the power grid, fire protection for high rise, new demands on sewer and water and police, to name a few.

Other towns have downtown hotels, but they were built without the subsidy of a TIF. I'm tired of subsidizing developers, and the TIF is just a well disguised subsidy. Don't believe it? See if the plan will fly without TIF status -- I don't think it will.

So you do think Naperville ranks with Paris?

They have the Eiffel Tower, we have the bell tower that was also shoved down our throats by a deaf City Council.

Your argument is that if another city has something, Naperville must have one too?

Edward Hospital does not sit on top of the Riverwalk, I'm not even sure there is a view from the Riverwalk where the hospital can be seen.

Another argument you make is that the out of town college students and their families will stay in the hotel, presumably they are staying in Naperville hotels now, so the effect on City revenues is neutral at best.

Lets be honest, do you stand to make money on this one?

****************************************************************

And of course, I would not be that naive to think that Naperville does not rank with Paris, etc.

Great comparison. Don't quit your day job. And of course, I would not be that naive to think that Naperville does not rank with Paris, etc.

Here is why there is a need for a hotel downtown - not on Diehl Road - but downtown.

1) There isn't one.
2) It would bring in so much tax revenue from all sorts of angles - hotel tax, retail tax, food tax, etc. Kind of a no brainer
3) St Charles has a great hotel in their downtown. Geneva does. And I am sure many other towns do too. Naperville's has a downtown with ambiance - restaurants, shopping, etc. There is a college town here. Although most of the kids are from local towns, there are some from out of town. There is a revenue driver right there.
4) A downtown hotel would allow for further growth in our arts - we have a brand new building at North Central (I think).
5) We are talking about a city of 150k bordered by cities that have approximately another 400kish people. We are that anchor, go to, whatever you want to call it city of all those.

Take advantage of it. Don't worry about the hieght thing. Last I checked Edward Hospital is eight stories high and it is the farthest thing from an eye sore. The NT building is very nice looking.

The only thing - no name brand hotels. If a name brand buys it, tell them they have to come up with a unique name. No Holiday Inn, or Ramada or LaQuinta. Those are for Diehl Road

Commerce and progress.

Council rundown:
Hinterlong: Keep. Needs to work on the financials.
Wherli: Keep. Needs to speak up more.
Boyagian: Not running. Getting a little cranky but has good understanding of the budget.
Furstinau: Get out! Worst elected official in town. Claims to be the people's watchdog but wastes more money than he saves. Votes against things he doesn't understand. Small minded egomaniac.
Pradel: Not a leader but a cheerleader. Will not be beat in an election however.
Krause: Get out. The business of running this city has passed him by. Brings nothing to the table. Only there to help his real estate business.
Miller: Keep... as councilman. Good councilman but not Mayor material. Balks at taking a leadership role on any of the issues.
Fesieler: Keep. never know with this guy. Either right on point or off in left field in some made up world.
Broadhead: Keep... for now. Not really adding anything, but not doing harm.

"... lets hope we get some good choices and have the support to beat the likes of the council members you are describing, we both know who they are."

Let's start with Pradel (poster child for the Peter Principle), Krause (always the bridesmaid who has had more than enough chances), and Wherli (he's just taking up space).

I am seeing some good discussion here and all are making points. I personally think a hotel is not a good idea for the same reasons already mentioned above and as for condos I am skeptical. The condos on Washington did sell well and these may too but the building planned I think is too tall for that area.
Anonymous, I agree it is time for some major changes to council, lets hope we get some good choices and have the support to beat the likes of the council members you are describing, we both know who they are.

I do not support a hotel or condo development along the riverwalk. However, I think a row of office buildings, as well as a B&B or two, in Victorian design, would be a wonderful development for that space. We don't need any more retail, and there's a glut of homes in Naperville already. Let's go back to the drawing board on this one.

To anonymous on August 26, 2010 11:24 PM

A key to a successful community is appropriate zoning. Take matters to an extreme. What happens if you built a single family house in the middle of a land area that was zoned for single family houses. Then somebody bought all the land between you and the main road and wanted to change the zoning to a truck stop with the idling zone next to your yard. Are you ok with that?

On the other hand, if you bought a lot next to a parcel of land that was zoned to be a truck stop, then there is nothing you can do about it. However, even in Naperville, there are "subdivision regulations" that require extensive buffers between incompatable uses (truck stops and single family housing). While not totally mitigating the issue, it does help.

The land in question on Hobson is currently zoned for single family houses on 2 1/2 acre lots. You cannot build townhouses or apartments. Zoning changes in the county have been denied and courts have upheld the zoning.

However, if the land became contiguous with the Naperville City limits, Naperville could change this zoning. This is one of the risks of living in an unincorporated area, adjacent municipalities can ignore the existing land owners. So far, no land owner surrounding this parcel has been willing to annex to Naperville to allow the land to be rezoned.

As to the comment about the "estate section", go to the City of Naperville plan. That is their characterization of the area. Houses are on lots ranging from half acre to ten acres.

And I think dropping in five to 20 townhouses on irregular parcels that were not originally developed, but zoned single family is just poor planning. We don't need them.

And you cannot mix a Section 8 $75,000 housing unit with single family houses ranging from $750,000 to $10 million. Just does not make sense.

to anonymous on August 26, 2010 11:24 PM:

You might want to get educated ---- Dan D's reference to "in fill" [not "fill-in", as you interpreted it], is a technical term by the City for land use involving smaller, odd lots with specific challenges such as the one at Water Street and the one next to Seager Park.

His reference to subsidized housing speaks to section 8 housing, which though needed has been a problem for areas that have it, such as the Springhill subdivion. It is NOT referring to affordab le housing for middle class buyers.

Dan,

The same Developers and the supporting companies that have run Naperville for the last 40 years go into City Hall and tell them what they need to build more so the City can tax more for new construction fees plus yearly property taxes. This is the recipe for getting rich in Naperville and for getting financing to get reelected to the City Council.

Left alone, the City Council and the Developers would level the entire city and cover all of it in townhouses if that is what is selling today.

If you already bought a single family home, well to bad, your a chump.

The best solution is to vote out all Council members that are financed by the builders and sub-contractors including the attorneys that represent them.

Our neighborhoods are not green-fields.

************************************************************
By anonymous on August 26, 2010 11:24 PM

Dan D says:

"For the life of me I cannot figure out how Naperville zones their property. These "in fill" townhouse projects destroy the characteristic of neighborhoods, not just at Seeger Park, but up and down Naper Boulevard as well.

Lets see:

Paris, Rome, London, Broadway, San Francisco, Naperville.

***************************************
By Anonymous 5678 on August 26, 2010 11:07 AM

I am all for a hotel downtown. Tourism tourism tourism. I think that is one of the biggest negatives of our downtown.

Anyone who actually thinks there is a "need" for a hotel in downtown Naperville is dreaming. Naperville already has a glut of unused hotel rooms running east to west along the entire north end of town. We also have the Arista as a "high-end" hotel and it is reported to be struggling some.

There simply is no "destination" in downtown Naperville that justifies a need for a hotel unless the developers have something else in mind that they haven't shared with us yet. Or maybe they think all of those hard drinking bar and restaurant patrons will soon be checking in to a hotel room instead of driving home inebriated?

The big question for the city and zoning and plan people is if you approve a hotel and it gets built and then fails as many predict it will.... then what? Hotels these days are designed pretty specifically to function best as a hotel. What possible other uses or functions will be taken into the design to ensure future flexibility in terms of other occupancy classifications?

Dan D says:

"For the life of me I cannot figure out how Naperville zones their property. These "in fill" townhouse projects destroy the characteristic of neighborhoods, not just at Seeger Park, but up and down Naper Boulevard as well. Fortunately, Naperville cannot get contiguous to the riding stables on Hobson Road. They would allow low income subsidized housing in the middle of the estate section of the town with the highest concentration of high end houses."
---------
Oh My Goodness and Wow, "fill in townhouses" might wreck the McMansion neighborhood? In the middle of the "estate" section? If the "estate" section doesn't want mixed housing, perhaps the HOA should buy up all the empty land that might possibly be filled by those that live in townhomes instead of McMansions. Now, it seems that the McMansion neighborhoods may become a dying breed, with the economic climate in our country and around the world possibly changed for the long-term. Perhaps we should be embracing affordable housing for middle class working americans, and not consider a smaller dwelling to be a barnacle on the "estate" crowd.

For all my years in Naperville, this statement makes me so sad. There will be so many more of our middle class peers that need to own smaller property for their families in the future, if they will ever be able to buy again. So many of us, at some point, may feel that their huge home is too large a footprint on our world, our environment. If this statement shows the tolerance of Naperville, shame on all of us.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Death-of-the-McMansion-Era-of-cnbc-1051033821.html?x=0

JQP

The alternatives presented for the south side of Water St. are a 130 room hotel or, 40 additional condo's to the 32 planned on the north side of Water St.

The developer is talking about $1.5 million for the units on the north side, but I seem to remember that the south side condo's were in the $700,000 range. Assuming that's right we get $28 million in property value. Is a 130 room hotel worth that much? I don't know. The plan is for it to be an upscale boutique type of hotel with rooms (suites actually) in the $200 a night range.

I cannot agree with any of this plan, looking at the condos across from the Promenade on Van Buren that did not sell so now it is a dorm for North Central College students. How will these sell and I would like to understand the impact better for this TIF, it did not work out well in Warrenville (Cantera) now that the big rats are fleeing the ship.

Two minor revisions to my previous post;

There is to be a sidewalk along the alley. Anyone looking at the first floor site plan for the hotel option needs to disregard the lack of the inclusion of a sidewalk on the plan submitted.

Secondly, the pedestrian skyway will serve the Loggia building only which will contain 20 units not the 17 I indicated above. The Tower building slated to contain 12 units will not have a similar skyway.

Question for Dan, or anyone else who might know:

The TIF and the state of the economy notwithstanding, would a hotel likely generate less property tax than a condo development?

Thanks.

-JQP

I am all for a hotel downtown. Tourism tourism tourism. I think that is one of the biggest negatives of our downtown. Last thing we need right now is another undersold condo building. The hotel could be build much the same way as the writer before suggests with shopping on the street level. No brand name hotels though. Get something with a little funk to it like there is in Chicago. And as far as the height, who cares? It's not going to look like Shaumburg. Shaumburg only looks like that right off the highway, not their downtown. Naperville looks just like Schaumburg right off our highways as well.

Thom raises valid issues. Some additional thoughts.

1. The largest problem with this project is the imposition of additional costs BY THE CITY to incorporate this massive parking garage (for general "downtown" parking) and and to a lesser degree expansion of the Riverwalk.

If these two components were eliminated, then clearly the height and street variances would not be needed. This is the single largest problem with this program.

More aggrevating, these improvements are being funded through higher school taxes. Huh? These components are the primary "TIF Eligible" costs. The TIF would divert all of the property tax increment from this site to pay for these costs as well as debt service. Since Naperville 203 is 70% (or so) of the taxes, the school taxes will be used to pay for the parking deck and the riverwalk expansion. If there was no TIF, then these taxes would not be deferred and EVERYONE's taxes would go down since 203 is capped and cannot increase taxes beyond their limits.

The City of Naperville should finance public projects from their tax revenues, not the school district. This is particularly an issue for those of us in District 203 that are not in the City of Naperville (portions of Woodridge, Lisle, Bolingbrook and unincorporated communities).

2. The only good news is that nothing will happen for at least five years. There is no market and this project cannot be financed. I am surprised it is not in bankruptcy already.

3. For the life of me I cannot figure out how Naperville zones their property. These "in fill" townhouse projects destroy the characteristic of neighborhoods, not just at Seeger Park, but up and down Naper Boulevard as well. Fortunately, Naperville cannot get contiguous to the riding stables on Hobson Road. They would allow low income subsidized housing in the middle of the estate section of the town with the highest concentration of high end houses.

All multifamily should be concentrated along public transportation, either by the current Metra station or future mass transit along i-88 (huh, you say. The commuter rail operations are 18th century. Chicago needs modern rail or mono rail systems to replace these inefficient, old trains).

Just some thoughts.

And even if that hotel survives....
what will happen then as a result to others already in the area? It will be taking business from already existing, established hotels. Personally, I think an upscale B&B would be a better fit for the downtown area. Or a smaller upscale boutique hotel. One that is nice enough to be part of the Select Registry. (Look at that group's website and you can see what I am talking about.) The clientele for a B&B or small boutique hotel tends to be different than those staying at larger chain hotels.

Readers interested in the Water Street Proposal might find the Naperville Area Homeowners Confederation REPORT ON WATER STREET DEVELOPMENT PROJECT of interest. This report was created in response to the original proposal approved in 2007. The new project, with the potential addition a hotel, causing the Tower/Mixed Use building to increase by two additional floors, only increases the Confederations concerns. One belief we have is that bigger is not better for this location. The charm and livability of the downtown is lost with the massive structures(s) being suggested in such a small area.

Briefly, the Confederation's concern's are;

a. The height and density of the project. At 7 floors the tower building will be 85’ to 90' compared to 54’ for the existing Northern Trust building. This building, and it’s attached 690 space parking deck is a massive monolithic structure that will dominate the Downtown skyline.

b. At five floors, the Loggia and Theater Buildings along the river will overpower and commercialize the Riverwalk.

c. The decision to narrow the street/sidewalk from the standard 66’ down to 57’ has numerous and significant negative implications for traffic, and especially, for pedestrians.

d. The potential traffic/safety problems from constructing a very large, busy, parking deck, whose only access/egress is a 20’ wide alley. An additional concern is the lack of sidewalk in the alley coupled with the fact that the deck will certainly have to share spaces with any redevelopment along Aurora.

e. Adding a private pedestrian skyway across the publicly owned Water Street right of way for the sole use of 17 luxury condo owners to the North, further canyonizing an already narrow street and obstructing views.

f. With 3 years of the 23 years on the TIF already expired, what will be the financial effect of an extended construction timetable further reducing the TIF’s life? Will the Tower/Mixed Use building be able to service the TIF’s financial requirements on its own?

g. Is a hotel financially viable in this economic climate? There is an article in Crain’s today (8-25) discussing the “brutal downturn” in hotel business that has caused three Chicago area hotels to fall seriously delinquent in their mortgage payments. How can Naperville be assured that it will not be “left holding the bag” financially, if a hotel fails there?

h. The same concerns can be voiced on the fall back position of constructing condos in lieu of the hotel. There is no market for additional condo’s downtown currently, and there are other condo projects already approved for the downtown area. Again, as the developer is asking for a TIF for this project, what guarantees can the city receive that the condo proposal will ensure repayment of all TIF funds expended by the city for infrastructure?

There are numerous documents and site plans of the original project
here under the title “Water Street Re-Development".

Lets see, the Riverwalk will be put into permanent shade, and completely dwarfed by the special tax assessment of the slum reclamation project.

As long as the right people are making money, its good for Naperville, NOT.

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An intelligent use of the property would be rows of 3 story office condos with ground floor retail. Making spaces for small business in the downtown that would draw more customers in, and have more potential customers working in the buildings.

I'm sure that there are plenty of investors including physicians, dentists, attorneys etc that would love to buy a townhouse style building for an office, and sublet some offices, near the Riverwalk and eat and shop downtown when they are not working.

Small business is the primary employer in the USA, and besides, the large companies are leaving the country as fast as possible.

I have some questions for everyone:

Why do we need anything so large in our downtown?

Are we trying to look like Aurora or Shaumburg?

The riverwalk was built with a combination of donations and taxes -- why should we let a developer reap the benefits of it at our expense?