A few months ago, protesters appeared outside the municipal center decrying the layoffs of six officers from the Naperville Police Department.
But with upcoming departures of four confirmed, or as many as eight, there is talk that some, or all may be rehired. The City Council is expected to be briefed about it and the matter will be addressed at some point.
So will it be a case of all's well that ends well? Or is the city dodging a bullet. (No pun intended)
New hope for laid off cops?
No TrackBacks
TrackBack URL: http://blogs.suburbanchicagonews.com/cgi-bin/mt-tb.cgi/8303
And this is relative to hiring back six Police Officers in what way?
I do want to give us all credit here for staying close to the topic. I'm getting tired of looking at the two or three man games being played by the 203 malcontents in every forum on the blog. Go meet face to face, or challenge one another to a duel. Don't include Schindelbeck, whatever you do!
Sun, please give them their own space. Not that it's not important, it's just that they've hijacked every blog here.
WOW is right. You mam demonstrate in your post a number of thoughts exhibiting little insight into what it takes to make a life and death decision in a second. I would guess the most dangerous thing you have ever faced is the traffic pattern at the local SD 204 school. When some woman at 01:15 decides to entertain her ex-convict boyfriend and things get out of hand between them, the stage is set is it not? She and the boyfirend made some bad choices. You have little knowledge about odds making either. Finally, police do not carry guns in jail or hospitals because presumably proper screening allows no such items inside. Weapons are not needed and they are not needed in courtrooms either for the same reason. Too bad the same cannot be said for apartments of women who decide the criminal element excites them. So you boo hoo but do it from the soccer sidelines on Saturday with your girlfriends. Let life and death decisions be made by those who are in fact trained to make them and make them properly. Your comments are two cents looking for change.
"Man dies in police shooting." WOW, what a headline to wake up to this morning.
Part of the moral of this story is to never bring a knife to a gun fight with Sgt. Schindlbeck. A provoking and very interesting part of this story is that this very same police officer is reported to have been involved in each of the only two cases where a "civilian" has ever been killed by a police officer in Naperville. Frankly, that is off the charts in terms of probability. As reported by the Naperville Sun both victims appeared to be suffering from acute mental health issues at the time they were fatally shot by Sgt. Schindlbeck.
Mr. Ladew apparently had quite a history which likely means no one will care much that he is dead nor will anyone really question if the use of lethal force was necessary or justified. But there are some elements of these shooting that should be at least a bit disconcerting to anyone who is compassionate to those with mental illness; even more so to anyone who has a family member suffering from mental illness.
Police officers do not carry weapons inside jails or mental hospitals for good reason. They do not carry weapons for their own safety as well as the safety of patients, staff, and visitors. If someone with acute mental health issues runs afoul of a police officer at home or on the street they unfortunately have a much higher mortality rate than if they interact with a police officer in a jail or hospital. That alone is very telling about how mental health encounters have been handled historically on the street.
Which begs the question... Is the City of Naperville providing police officers with enough education and training on how to handle mentally health situations and people in an acute mental health crisis? In the bigger picture of things this would be a question to the training of all police officers because this isn't necessarily something that is different or unique just to the Naperville Police Department.
It does concern me when any person armed only with a knife needs to be shot dead. It concerns me when it is reported that two police officers were present and lethal force became the only viable option between the two of them. It concerns me to know we train our police officers in hand to hand combat and apparently none of that training, practice, or disarming techniques were useful. It concerns me to know we have spent thousands of tax dollars to equip our police officers with Taser's for use in exactly these kinds of situations and a Taser was not fired by either officer. It concerns me to know we spend thousands of dollars on firearm training, practice, and accuracy and a decision to take a kill shot was made instead of a decision for a take down shot.
None of us were there and many of the details have yet to be reported. In general, this is not about second guessing what these officers faced or felt they needed to do under the circumstances. What this is about is police training and police policy and to a much larger extent public policy in terms of the mentally ill.
No one wants to see a mentally ill person act out. No one wants to see a police officer put at risk of injury or death. Police officers will always be called upon to interact with mentally ill people. The goal of society should be to get the mentally ill person to the medical treatment they need. The goal should also be for both the mentally ill and the police to survive the immediate crisis.
In both shootings involving Sgt. Schindlbeck the mentally ill person did not survive the encounter. We are not talking about a bank robber or serial killers here: we are talking about a mentally ill person having a medical crisis. A compassionate person asks why did this have to happen? A compassionate person asks what could have been done differently to have prevented the need for a lethal shot? A compassionate person asks what can the police do to prevent the need for a lethal shot in the future? A compassionate person asks what has the Naperville Police department done to learn from these incidents and what has the police department done to change training, drilling, tactics, equipment, policies, and procedures in increase the survivability of mentally ill in future encounters?
People don't choose to be ill. People certainly don't choose to be mentally ill. When someone falls, gets in an accident, has a heart attack, etc. most compassionate people rush to get them the help they need. When confronted with a mental illness these same people are more likely to avoid getting involved and very few people have any kind of mental health "first aid" training.
Only when we confront these questions and issues and have hard, frank conversations about how to better handle mental health situations will the mentally ill be less likely to die in such unfortunate encounters.
Glocky,
Let's agree on this. I'm good with more cops on the street. However, this blog is about hiring back six cops that were fired. I don't think that the Police are lean. They have way too many people inside. I heard this from Police Officers that work there. They have all sorts of detectives, intel people, crime prevention people, sitting at desks doing nothing to stop crime. They were fine when we had money, you could say, I guess, that they help prevent crime, or solve that nasty missing iPhone case, but we don't need them when you have to prioritize. My argument is that we cut those positions first, and put more cops on the street. Their contract says that they have to cut by seniority-again, written in this blog. Fine, cut the new cops, and put the old ones that are sitting around back on the street.
Is that problematic? Sure. As Rant Wherli says, we're cutting some good cops in the new bunch. Yep. But that's the deal that the Union and the City signed off on. Look at what Rant is doing. Skirting a legal contract by getting a guy who is probably related to him back on the force. Also, do you want 50 year old donut eating guys on the street? No, but that's the deal we have.
So, what we have is politicians trying to solve a budget crisis by doing the easy thing, just cut some people, with NO thought behind what they are doing. Where is the City Manager and Police Chief?
LaCuca: I agree that police presence cannot prevent some crime, including this stabbing however I will tell you they make a number of "on view" arrests down there and on view arrests prevent things from escalating. Plus, heavy police presence has a greater chance of stopping fleeing offenders. Finally, you do not hear about every arrest or crime that is committed and the police respond to. The Naperville Police Reports section of the Sun for example contains probably about one in ten incidents that they deal with. Finally, I want a lot of cops on the street as I have written before. I want the people from the city and other places that come to Naperville to have some fear that if they are abusive, violate our laws or otherwise engage in criminal activity, they are LIKELY to get locked up thus delaying their return to where they came from by days, weeks, months or in the Hearn boy, years. But hey, thats just me.
ONLY one thing wrong here, and that is that you believe what the City is selling in their projections. Even the Finance director said that those figures were the worst case scenario - and if you watched the presentation, you would also have noticed that this "projection" was the result of her one on one with Councilman First to sue ...... he likes NOTHING better than public panic so that he can sell fear, cut staff, and put more of your money in to the pockets of his friends and supporters. If he really was so incredibly afraid of these terrible deficits, why did he vote for the 11 Million Dollar Smart Grid??? Why did he think it was such a great time to bail out the Childrens museum? The guys an ego maniac, and the fact that anyone is still buying what he is selling is is CRAZY. Remember the deficit of over 7 Million we had according to this group in November???? Amazing how that magically just disappeared. Why was that do you suppose? Election season maybe? Come on people, at least learn from what they've been waving in front of your face these past couple of years - the truth doesn't matter, the truth is whatever supports their latest position and benefits them the most at any given moment.
Gggggglock,
How does more cops equal less crime? I don't think we would have had a cop in Black Finn stopping the moron from stabbing anyone. Hey, where were the cops when this happened? They're still all over the downtown. Must have been sleeping in the alleys.
Huh, what, 5-67 at Black Finn? Where's Black Finn? Oh, that bar me and the boys were in last night-hic!
How many more police need to be laid off? How can there be discussion to bring back laid-off police when the most recent budget deficit projections really haven't improved significantly. If these projections are true Naperville isn't out of the woods yet. Not even close. And there is much to be very, very concerned about in terms of what Naperville needs to do to restore lost revenue, adjust spending, and continue to right size city staff.
The longer city council and city administration do nothing but talk about the problem the worse it will get.
Naperville is at the point where a whole bunch of city departments need to be consolidated and entire layers of middle management needs to go. Those department heads that are retained can only be those with a proven ability to be frugal... those who have already demonstrated they can do more with less. That means some department heads like the Police Department need to go and we should combine police, fire, and 911 into a single public safety department. We need more hands and feet on the real work that needs to be done on the street, not more administrators sitting behind desks. One administrator instead of three can make sure all of these departments run efficiently. The same is true for every other city department. If we don't know how to do with city administration or city council then the time has come and gone for being time to hire an efficiency consultant who will show us how to get the job dome.
All of the perks and wasteful ways of the past need to be on the cutting table. A real commitment to outsourcing jobs that can be performed by the private sector has got to be made.
One of our biggest revenue holes during the recession has been the loss of automobile sales. Has anyone taken a ride down Ogden Avenue and counted how many auto dealerships are gone? Several auto brands have either gone out of business or are on the verge of doing so. There aren't enough brands left to fill all of the empty dealerships which means a lot of auto sales Naperville relied upon in the past are gone for good.
At the same time has anyone recently driven down the stretch of Ogden Avenue just west of Rt 83??? Surprise, surprise but a whole bunch of new auto dealerships are being built or renovated and you can safely bet every one of these auto dealers are going to do their best to steal as much business as they can from Naperville auto dealers. While consumers can hope to benefit from increased competition the downside is Naperville may never again see local auto sales reach the same peaks seen in the past . Considering how much some some of the newest and fanciest dealers in Naperville have spent on their fixed overhead it is a real concern if they will be able to remain profitable in an even more competitive environment. If they can't and even more auto dealerships close that only spells additional, long term problems for the Naperville deficit.
When Naperville was flush with tax dollars all of the mistakes, bloat, waste, and mismanagement was swept away without a second thought as to what we were doing or what it was going to cost us near term or long term.
Now all of this is coming back to haunt us. The million dollar question for every voter in Naperville is who do you trust to be the best person to lead and the best persons to help lead us out of this mess? Never before than this spring has it been this important in terms of whom each of us gives our faith and trust for the future of our community. Never before has it been more important for each person to know the issues and to know where everyone stands on the issues and to make their decision accordingly.
Gee La Cucar: More criminal activity in downtown Naperville late night. And another most excellent performance by NPD. Good work coppers and all involved civilians. Adam Hearn from Lombard who thinks it is ok to stab a Black Finn security guard while he was escorting Adam and his POS girlfriend out because they were BOTH smoking in A bathroom at 1:30am. The guard was transported to Edward for emergency surgery and Adam and POS were deposited in the Country Jail. I love a happy ending. :-} I wrote before and I write again, more cops equals more civilized behavior or you go to jail.
You know it Anonymous. It is not a very smart approach to take, but if one thing is certain at this point, City Management and City Legal are not at all smart! Its sad, because they really seem to believe they are clever and all the residents and worker level staff are not bright enough to figure them out. Exactly the opposite is true, and it shows up more and more each day. Can't wait to see what the Labor Board has to say about the City's negotiating techniques .... if I were one of those cops, I'd be getting my gear together to go back to work. Right or wrong about needing those cuts, the way the City went about it was bush league.
Had to laugh at the hire back decision of one police officer. What we really have in the works is a feeble attempt at law suit risk management at and some really amateur gamesmanship to boot! Let's all pitch in and buy whoever came up with this last great idea a box of Risk or Stratego for Christmas next year. Heck if we collect enough maybe we can even throw in a logic course or two for them as well.
If our infamously inept and bumbling city legal department had used this same strategy during the Furstenau lawsuit the city of Naperville would probably be a million dollars ahead today. Not.
Miss Piggy,
Rant Wehrli knew exactly what he was saying. They got rid of people that challenged them and kept the lemmings. Again, cutting staff had to happen. How it happened is another matter-and the City Council dictated that work. They hand picked employees to get rid of, then say, I think we got rid of the malcontents/loosers, didn't we Bob? Yes, Councilman.
As we can all see, how staff reductions happen continues to be an issue. We have wack jobs like Fieseler trying to hire cops back and Wehrli trying to hire one specific person back-what is that?
I continue to preach. Find the services that we don't need as much as others, and cut the associated people. It's hard work and the City Council doesn't want to do it. They'd rather dabble with specific employees-whos performance they have NO knowledge of. That is a serious red flag.
No, A-mouse. I get your point about the Unions and seniority and all, but what LaClack is trying to get across, I think, is simply how does the Councilman know the value of any individual officer versus another? He doesn't work directly with or evaluate any employee. His statement is suspect. The statement he made about thinking they (city leaders) kept the good employees, at least he hopes so, is quite a statement to make up there. Then again, who hasn't made a statement they wish they could take back? It would go a long way if the Councilman explained himself on that issue. I think he's too good a man to have meant anything derrogatory toward those cut from the payroll.
If that is really true then how does Wherli or any other city council member justify Bob Marshall continuing to serve in his current position? Marshall is no longer protected by any union.
I agree on the Union seniority comments. But he was uisng that two ways. One, to blast the practice. It is stupid, but will never change. Two, to get some particular person re-hired and that's plain wrong.
As much as the seniority thing is antiquated and not performance based, you have to wonder about he subjectivity of Doug Krieger picking six cops to get rid of. In theory, he would know who's good and who's not. In reality, it would be a popularity, or unpopularity contest.
LaCluck
If that were true, then you would think the Union people would be the one's getting rich, and the rich would be losing out over the past couple of decades wouldn't you. Course, that is completely untrue. In truth, Unions have shrunk in recent decades by about 30%, and the middle class that they tend to represent has followed right along with them. The middle class is losing out, be they Union, or non-union, and the rich, including those like Wherli who inherit a family name get richer.
I will agree that a senior employee who isn't doing there job shouldn't be retained, union or non-union. It is possible you know to get rid of a Union employee for cause - people tend to forget that, but I've seen it happen several times in my workplace. An employeer has to do their homework, and they have to follow the rules, but it can be done.
The problem is that people like those on your City Council have everything they need and then some. They are the ones who have been making ALL the decisions that have left this community, and most others, in the position you find yourself in now. They spent when they had the money, and they spent when they didn't. NOW, rather than take responsibility for that, they are pushing it off on the workers (again, Union or non - they are crying how they just can't afford to pay people ..... what does Furstenau like to say??? their pay is "unsustainable". Fine, but in truth, what is unsustainable is the debt the decision makers have gathered for you, and are now trying to pay off on the backs of the Unions and other average workers.
You can buy the company line that it is the EVIL Unions that are taking your money, you will simply be mistaken like half the rest of the followers who buy what these self centered it's all about me types are selling. Think it through - are there any flaws in Unions - YOU BET!!! But if you want to change the way things are done - do you start at the bottom and leave the decision makers alone? They'd like it if you did, but if you do. in 5 years, things will be much worse - and you won't have qualified workers providing your services. I hope that if you ever call 911 you don't mind if the first question they ask is "do you want fries with that", because your city council and city manager think that's a great idea, so long as they can keep their bonus's and keep their friends happy. Bet Furstenau doesn't think the rents he charges are unsustainable.
Please, look harder before you bash the Policeman at your corner, or the clerk behind the counter. In truth, those are the people who are just like you, trying to earn a living as best they can. I doubt you can say that about Grant the Rant or I love my lawyer Furstenau. .
Just went to Andy Shaw's Better Government website....discovered the big 400 lb NPD detention officer that is in DUI court EVERY week made approximately $25,000 in overtime last year. This guy has NEVER testified in a case, yet hits overtime like it's a bag of catnip!!! Maybe Doug "don't call me Robbie" Krieger can trim some fat from the budget here.
La Cluck,
Whelri's point was right on. The union protects senior employees and could care less about the younger or most recently hired. People blast Wherli for being part of the "old boy network" when in this case he was trying to point out its flaws. I give him credit on this one. Unions are KILLING this state and country and he is at least willing to stand up to them. He exposed one of the flaws with their system of once you are high enough on the liist you are untouchable regardless of performance. That just doesn't cut it outside of unions.
About the Coucil meeting last night.
How in the world do City Councilman know about the specific performance of one particlular Police Officer-Grant? So, they voted, in public to hire back a specific person that they heard was a good officer? That sounds personal. Wait, last name was Wehrli, right?
You don't get it. Those of us that understand what's going on here are fine with less officers. Response times to what? Car accidents-yes, that's imprortant. Children's parties-no, I don't care so much. Drive by, take a picture and send it to the parents. Let them deal with it.
How about waking up the slackers surfing the Internet from 9-4 in the Polce station and getting them on the street? Nah, they've earned their nap times.
We don't want the services that we used to have. Again, when we had money nobody knew or cared.
Moderator,
Suggested new topic.
The proposed New Downtown Plan.
Lets get the issues out in the open before it is passed.
Thanks!
Well said...
Wrong... You obvious dont know what you are talking about. The entire day shift patrol division is not on overtime for court, they are and have been scheduled on their normal work day which means you have 2-3 cops less each day working the road because they are in court. Sorry the midnight guys are not in court on straight time because they dont typically have court from 6pm-6am so you got me there. This summer will be the best yet for staffing, on a good day you maybe will have 11-12 ofc working down from 20. Have fun with that and the response times.
I agree 100%......Tricky Dick and Grant the Rant have to go!!!!
Oh no! The City would NEVER pay someone oh say, $80,000 in tax payer money to have a consultant do a study - then discard everything they don't like, and use the 3 sentences it contained that said to do what they were planning to do anyway! Couldn't happen! Just ask Clear Story!!!!!!
Glock,
Thanks for the thoughtful response. IMO, a lot of the Naperville crime is overblown. Cops and Dial embelish it to make it sound like we should be creating a Nazi state. The want to control everything. What I continue to see from the PD and FD are overnwhelming responses to small events. They have too many people. I appreciate your math, and don't have a clue how that stuff works. It looks like you do, bravo. What I'm saying is prioritize the services, say, get cops on the street first, then B, then C and so on. Understand our ability to pay and cut the lower priorities. I, for one, don't think we need a counter-terrorism unit in the PD. Let the FBI do that. I also don't think they need to be messing with white color crime. Again, let the FBI do that. I think we have tended to let these people do whatever they wanted when we had money. Nobody cared. Now we care, and we can't afford it.
Loved your comment as DF as a neighbor. I've heard it all about him. Great youth football coach, great father, etc. My point is that he is a bad Councilman. Does he have good ideas? Yes. It's how he acts. HE IS A BULLY! HE BULLIES STAFF AND THE PUBLIC! IT IS DOCUMENTED! YOU CAN"T ACT LIKE THAT AND CONTINUE TO GET AWAY WITH IT! I'm all for saving money, but you can't have it both ways. I'm saving money, then forcing the City to spend $1M defending my lawsuit. I said defending. He brought it on. He caused it, Dick. And don't tell me he did it for my civil rights. Please. You've all heard it before. When it's not about the money, it's about the money. He's all about the money. Listen to him at meetings. Everything he says and does is about cash.
I think we need a change. Vote out the Mayor and all incumbents. Why? They have failed us. How? By getting rid of services (leaf and brush, better snow plowing) that we actually want and keeping things that they want, like the SMART Grid, Carrillon, and Children's Museum. Their decision making, and judgement are poor at best. Let's give someone else a chance.
LC,
Heavens no! High priced consultants = scapegoat to do what you wanted to write down in the first place but found it more effective to pay large sums of money to put your thoughts in print with graphs. City Council likes such reports and really buys in when it mirrors their ideals. I was just hoping that someone might make a sound decision without such smoke and mirrors.
Anon, I guess we misundertand each other and I drank too much wine before I wrote last time. My apoligies to everybody. I don't think that a college degree is necessary at all. To the contrary, I said look at the leadership of the city loaded up with advanced education and tell me how they are doing? It is not a measuring stick for how well someone will perform their job, only a means for determining their ability to commit to a goal. We all must agree that it takes commitment to achieve a degree, but not advanced intellect or super hybrid human qualities. The fact that more of them have a college education doesn't mean we need less of them. That's just silly. Tell me why, though, do you think we should pay someone capable of doing the same job and performing accordingly less salary than someone with a degree that believes they have something coming to them? Help me here.
First, thanks to NPD if they even read this blog for bagging the two hood rats who think its ok to be dealing heroin on the streets of Naperville. And for you fools who think there is no serious crime in Naperville, I offer dealing heroin on our streets is at the top of the felonious crimes list. I am familiar with a case where a 17 yr old girl with NO arrest record and her 20 yr old boyfriend with only a ticket for underage drinking decided they would rob the courier from whom they normally bought their herion. She looked like a Nequa Valley H.S. cheerleader in her drivers license photo taken six months before her arrest for murdering the courier. In six short months she went from a beautiful 16 yr old girl, someones precious daughter to something that looked like a truck ran over. I am a trained observer of human features for ID purposes and I could see NO relation to the photo and the girl I was looking at. It was nothing short of stunning. She went to prison. Her well to do parents could not get her out of that jamb with all the money they had. Her life is over as she ever knew it. Thanks again NPD and thankfully these two jerks committed their crime in DuPage because now they are going to IDOC for at least 6 years. And to La Cruc..I do live in Naperville. Hint: I am on the same street as Councilman DF, he is about a block away. While I do not like at all many of his decisions on the Council, that is politics. I will tell you he is a very good neighbor. Finally, I am not on the NPD or any municiple PD. I believe in supporting the police, even when they give me a ticket. I have to laugh about all of you who think the NPD is over staffed. Just how many officers do you think it takes to cover a single police beat 24hrs a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year? I wonder if anyone on this blog knows how many police beats there are in Naperville? Anybody hear of the 5/3 factor for sworn police deployment for 8hr shifts? How does the 5/3 factor differ for 8hr vs. 10hr shifts? When the rotation occurs, why do police rotating get a three day weekend? (Did you know that? Every 30 days they get a three day weekend, if they are on 30 day rotation) How does shift rotation work and how do you factor manpower requirements during peak calls for service as opposed to non peak periods spread over each beat based on historical crime statistics? Is NPD on 8 or ten hour shifts? How do you align individual officers on a shift to accomodate court call so you do not have to pay overtime? If someone can answer these questions, I think they may have a valuable opinion on the topic. You see folks, adequate manpower is not decided on lets see, lets have one policeman for every 5,000 people or pick the number you choose per thousand. While it is not rocket science, it is a science. Gee, I will bet $100 that obviously even Doug Krieger cannot answer these questions correctly. I thought it funny when Dial was sitting in front of a city council meeting late last year answering questions from the assembled fools in the room. I did not hear a single question from anyone that showed any insight and judging by the rather bemused expression on his face, either did he.
"New hope for laid off cops" Perhaps, but no hope for taxpayers
We need those officers back...to keep Dick Furstenau out of Show Me's.....the little fella wont leave the place!!!!
That's good stuff, Glock. I'm with you. I've been all over the world too and there are people just like Globe Trotter everywhere you go. Specialists in their own minds. Like the Pension Hater who thinks all public service should go private sector, since they've proven to be so right at what they do they don't even have to fund pensions. An example of the right way to manage public services would then be to hire all illegal immigrants that get no benefits and extremely low wages to keep taxpayers costs down so that the .2% of the company can make a &%$# load of money and invest it poorly for their retirement, lose it all, then blame the public sector for managing THEIR money wrong and beg for public help. Globe Trotter should make his final stop in Somalia. What do you say, Glock?
Hey Glocko,
Of course you wrote that it is illegal.. If fact you wrote: "You may not think public barfing or urinating or disorderly conduct is crime but I and many others do."
If it is a crime then doing something that is a crime is considered doing something illegal. So by your own words you think barfing is a crime which makes it illegal for anyone to barf in public.
You are certainly entitled to your own opinion. We only have to worry if the fools on city council start thinking like you.
Spoke like the true cop that I know you are. You're right, we can't afford the ancillary services that you mentioned anymore- and the people that provide them. We put those in in a different day. People don't want to pay for them anymore. I'll bet you don't even live in Naperville. That's what I love about the cops. Give me a raise, more benefits, don't cut us, pay higher taxes... as you all make $120k a year off of us and live elswhere, and tell us how to spend our money.
And, O'Brillaint Glock, we aint talking about schools here. Quit the deflection. We're talking about you, the Police Department.
Paggy, don't know where you're going. Are you saying we need some high priced consultant because the City Council and City Manager don't have the expertise to reorganize? I thought Bob Marshall was an ex-cop, can't he lead the project.
Peggy,
You wrote: "Just staff departments according to our needs and with employees that can perform the job."
There is nothing in Illinois state law that REQUIRES a police officer to have a college degree. Most new police officers do not have a college degree if you look at the entire state for new hires. All new police officers have to attend the police academy to get certified by the state anyway which means college graduates are sitting in the same training with high school grads and one has to question why someone is wasting a college degree and tuition loans on a beat cop position that only requires a high school grad.
Granted a lot of the high school grads eventually go to college on the taxpayer nickel and earn a degree though... many continue on an even earn advance degrees too. We probably should have a separate discussion about what the taxpayer should be paying for just like what private industry tuition reimbursement programs are willing to cover.
Regardless, if all we need and want are employees that can perform the job then we should demand the requirement for a college degree be dropped and we can allow our pay scale to come in line with other police departments that also hire high school grads. This will have a long term benefit in less wages paid over a career as well as lower pension benefits as well.
Experienced, The Commanders are the Lieutenants. How many levels of leadership do you think exists there?
Hey global traveler, nerver wrote barfing is illegal. Of course public intoxication is a municiple misdeameanor. But you already knew that being worldly and all. I am not going to debate your global nonsense. Your comment about no one being arrested for public urination indicates you have no idea what you are writing about. Go commont on the blog for your town. Charges should be filed if three ambulances were requried to deal with the number of sick drunks involved. There are cases where there are real emergencies and imagine having to testify you were down on drunks when someone is seriously injured and response was delayted. I do not want my taxes going to a FD that responds to these non ermergencies. If these young people want to drink themselves to oblivion, who cares? I cannot wait as the PD realigns its response to calls for service from the people they used to babysit. Need a lock out? Call a lock service. Want to report most of the misdemeanors you complain about? You are required to come to the police station to file your report. Have an animal problem? Call Billy the exterminator and get your check book out. Your neighbors are not paying for raccoon abatement at your home any longer. No one is going to be dispatched to your house to take a complaint about unknown juveniles smashing your mail box some night or stealing your Christmas light bulbs. See you at the station. Sorry to hear about your bad luck. And to the brilliant one who complains we are babysitting people, you need to look no further than to the government education system to understand that starts at gound level in the school system.
La Cuc, I appreciate your thoughts that the department needs to be reviewed for proper levels of service to the community without over-staffing, but the simple thought that now that they all have college degrees leads them to require less guidance from someone who has intrinsic skills to guide them properly is difficult to support. Please consider the leadership quality currently provided by our certainly highly educated upper level city staff before you use that as the basis for letting the street officers run the department. Did I just support your argument? I really don't care. Just staff departments according to our needs and with employees that can perform the job.
With 3 commanders retiring, it's an excellent time for the city to reconsider the organization of the department to determine if management roles can be combined. That would reduce costs to some extent, and allow for the hiring of patrol officers instead. The duties of 1 or 2 commanders could be spread amongst the others and possibly also onto a lieutenant or 2.
When we look at the amount of wasted manhours in the police department... a great example is the overtime pay for court appearances that no other police departments around here seem to have to bear... tells us that we still haven't hit the sweet spot yet.
You know for a fact that other local PD's don't pay overtime for court appearances?
Glocko,
Last time I checked it isn't against the law to barf in public or anywhere else for that matter. It might not be pretty or desirable but if we are going to start arresting people who barf in bars or restaurants then that means people in hospitals or kids in school during flu season are just as guilty. I'm willing to bet you aren't a doctor nor do any Naperville Police officers have the necessary medical training to diagnose why a person might be barfing.
Besides that I'd like to point out that barfing isn't any kind of medical emergency requiring transport by ambulance. Possibly if the person passed out and was unconscious but that fact wasn't reported so I won't speculate.
You can tolerate as much or as little "crap" as you choose. There is no legally binding definition of "crap" so what offends you just may not offend others. Let me remind you that the culture of America is changing whether you or I like it or not.
I've traveled all over the globe and there are many, many places where public urination isn't any kind of a Victorian taboo like it is in the U.S. At best urination is a basic human need and from a basic human need perspective there isn't a whole lot of difference between urination and breastfeeding... we are talking about two human ducts that express liquid and which are both commonly covered in public in our societ y. It is interesting that I can walk my dog downtown and he can lift his leg anywhere but if I join him I might get arrested... yet chemically there isn't much difference between his and mine.
Oh, so the argument isn't about the urine... it's about the indecent exposure. There probably is a valid legal argument in here somewhere that hasn't been adequately tested in the judicial system that says if someone takes as much of an attempt as a breast feeding mother to be remain covered while urinating that there has not been any indecent exposure.
Last time I checked no one has ever been arrested on Washington, Jefferson, Jackson, Main St, etc for public urination. In every instance the guilty went to some out of the way place like behind a building or in an alley where no one was present except for Naperville's Finest on their world famous Potty Patrol. No where else but in Naperville can a police officer spend 4 years attending college earning a bachelors degree in criminal justice to be assigned to the Potty Patrol... what a wonderful use of a higher education.
Regardless, if Potty Patrol is the best use of these officers time and talent then the city should cut them loose so these officers can go work in another community fighting real crime.
The vast majority of crime in Naperville is petty stuff... mostly misdemeanors. We simply don't need a police department of 450 people for petty crime. WHEN and IF serious crime ever STARTS to rise in Naperville we can always hire more cops at that time. Until then we are wasting tax dollars and we are wasting these officers careers because we are not providing them with meaningful employment. Over 90 percent of what most of these cops do all day long doesn't require a sworn police officer. Most of the duties could be handled by any security guard with a high school education.
As one example... health care figured this out years ago. That is why there are so few nurses these days and nurses now only do duties truly worthy of a nurse... all of the things they used to do like giving baths, making beds, emptying bed pans, etc. are now handled by unskilled and semi-skilled workers. The vast majority of government jobs haven't figured any of this out and they just continue to do things the same way they have always done things. It is high time sweeping changes are made in terms of what they do, how they do it, and how many it takes to get the job done. Just because this is the way it's always been done isn't good enough anymore.
Glocko, why all the angst?
The PD needs to lose more people. As many as it takes to reach desired service levels at the desired cost. There is nothing going on out there, and the stats prove it. I say that as a resident and taxpayer. Are you?
And, I did not say don't arrest people barfing in bars. You brought up urination, but I'm against peeing of all kind too. My point is that in a Police force where there is more serious crime, or less offiicers, they don't send in the cavalry for a puking 22 year old. This town has gotten too much into babysitting. That must be what the Chief wants. He's a dad to 20,000 kids. Stop it. Just don't tolerate it with less officers.
What do you do for a living Mr. Glock?
La Cuc,
Couldn't agree more! What I'd like to see is a breakdown on the supervisory and administrative staff for each shift. Just how many officers is each "supervisor" really responsible? I've said it before that the current structure of the police and fire departments are antiquated and out of date and serve nothing more than a promotion ladder to keep the union happy.
We have a highly educated police force compared to just about any where else. They all have college degrees and do not need to be "supervised" like a bunch of unskilled workers. Thirty years ago only the police chief had a college degree and he depended upon a bunch of lieutenants and sergeants to run rough shod over a bunch of high school graduates. That isn't the case any more and the number of supervisory staff needs to be pared down considerably.
That will still keep plenty of cops on the street where they are needed. Just like private industry has learned there isn't much value added by layer upon layer of unneeded middle management. A leaner police force is a better and more efficient police force.
Truthfully, when a staff is bloated they never seem to be able to think out of the box and figure how to be more effective and more efficient and the only answer ever seems to be is to simply continue to throw more people at the situation. On the other hand when a staff is lean it figures out what is most important and stops doing those things that really are not critical to it's mission or success. It also learns how to be more efficient and to get equal or more work done with fewer resources.
When we look at the amount of wasted manhours in the police department... a great example is the overtime pay for court appearances that no other police departments around here seem to have to bear... tells us that we still haven't hit the sweet spot yet. There is more work to be done and calling back laid off police officers won't help us get to where we need to be.
Anonymous 2/7/11 7:11-You are not sorry about anything and for La Curcaracha, let me break down the logic so you can understand. I did not say hire more cops, I advacate NOT laying off the cops we have. You may not think public barfing or urinating or disorderly conduct is crime but I and many others do. And as more of that crap is tolerated by you and others, there is an incremental increase leading to more serious crimes because the bar is raised for what is tolerated. I tolerate none of that crap.
Glock, not following your logic. We need more cops to handle people throwing up in a bar? And ambulances? Must have been some barf-fest, ala Family Guy. If anything, the City should hire more janitors to help bar owners.
Seriously, we have way too many cops total. If you want more on the street, wake up the cops sleeping at the station, or surfing the Internet for terrorists and get them back on the street. Let's get the stats. Has crime skyrocketed since we laid off the six cops. I doubt it.
Mayoral candidates, here's an idea. Let's talk about the structure of the Police Department. How many are on the street, how many in the station, what they do, how much real crime do we have vs. babysitting teens at parties.
Glock 22 RTF 2,
Sorry, If there were "three ambulances and a number of squads" just because someone drank too much and was throwing up in a bar that just goes to show we still have WAY TOO MUCH IDLE MANPOWER sitting around doing nothing on the taxpayer dollar.
If what you state is true that was simply way too much of an over response. No logical excuse to be blocking public roads and inconveniencing traffic just because someone drank too much.
Someone in the 911, police, and fire department has to held accountable for wasting city resources like this. Even more important if someone had a bona-fide medical emergency, like a heart attack, somewhere else in the city they would have experienced a delayed response due to how many ambulances were sent downtown.
We've previously read news stories about how supposedly thin the ambulance crews were running. Did the Naperville Fire deliberately mislead or spin the truth on what was reported to the press?
Note to Anonymouse:
Your comments and the issue they raise are under review.
Last night I was in downtown Naperville on Chicago Ave at 0145hrs. Three ambulances and a number of squads had the street blocked. A Sgt. walked up to my car and said its going to be a while so you might as well turn around and go back to Main Street. I asked him is it another case of a drunken brawl involving the little darlings of my neighbors? He said no, just a bunch of overly intoxicated little darlings of my neighbors who drank too much and were vomiting in one of the bars. (Yes, they serve food and used to be one over my favorite beer and burger joints but not anymore. It cannot possibly be sanitary there) The police had it well under control and it made me think those on this blog who complain about too many police in downtown are quite obvioiusly full of crap. Sorry folks, more police equal more public safety and security unless of course you think you can barf and unrinate and in general choose to act disorderly. These cops will be called back because the police union will most assuredly be successful with their llitigation. I am no fan of unions but the facts are incompetent, corrupt and pandering politicians allowed improper benefits to be given to public sector workers because in a number of cases, they are getting their own double dipping pensions.
What about the other 200 employees that these people fired? Can some of them come back? Maybe we can plow snow faster or pick up some leaves. Why just cops?
To Sun editors. I find it troubling that you continue to push the cop story. Obviously you have some connection to them. Ask the City Manager when others will be re-hired. Just send him an e-mail, you don't even have to really call him. As the Mayor and some Councilmen too. I'd like to hear what the three Mayoral candidates have to say.
You couldn't be more right - these short sighted decisions are encouraging EVERYONE to go Union! Leave Krieger and his lackies in charge a little longer, and everyone except them will be Union - they won't have any choice.
Oh, and the only ones who got paid for the day they closed City Hall were Managers - even Union people who couldn't make it in had to take their own time, or go unpaid. NO ONE counts in this City except for Krieger and his yes men.
So... Krieger is not paying city employees for the snow day when he was the one that closed city hall???? Of course union employees will still get paid! There is a great manager for ya. How many more union employees will we have? The city is up to 60% already. Bad management leads to unions. This is a clasic example. It just keeps getting worse. No one is waking up yet. How far does if have to fall.
One other thing. Cops are not above reproach. You slap your badge down in front of the chief in a show of disrespect in a public forum when it is not his call that you are cut, that is something that is inexcusable. All of you police brothers know it too. That is not what we are all about. They should remain out.
No way, La Cuc. There is no way that any City Manager would offer such a thing and conceal it. You'd have to be financially independent to care that little for the ramifications of such a move. It could be that the council has no clue as to what is going on. Next you're going to tell me that they are giving bonuses for the snow plowing efforts. I don't want to know anymore. Can we talk about something more comforting like $400million for Wrigley Field renovations, please?
Oh yes Joe, that important study they paid those consultants to provide. Another place we all sure got our money's worth right? What changed exactly??? OH that's right, absolutely nothing - they used it as an excuse to fire a few more people - but Krieger and the other incompetents are all still right where they started - ruining our City and stroking their ego's.
For $80.000, I could make a lot of suggestions that actually would make a difference - but Council and Management don't want to see anything that makes them uncomfortable, and the pink slips they would all be receiving would absolutely do that.
Does anyone know why Krieger said it would take until 2013 to discontinue the car allowances program? Couldn't be because he doesn't want to take treats from himself and his friends can it? No, it must be VERY complicated to tell the people who are helping you screw up the City that they can't have a free car anymore. That would take anyone 2 years to complete right?
More behind the scenes game playing by management. The funniest thing in the world is when Krieger uses the word transparent. He and the rest of the Management at the City hide 100x what they ever let the residents see. Why? Because if the outside world saw the sneaky self serving way this City operates, they would not only have to leave their overpaid City Jobs, but they'd be run out of town by one hundred thousand residents with pitch forks and torches.
With any luck, their day will come soon - a good clean sweep - not just one or two incompetents, but the whole band of nitwits. The City Council always wants to replace every City employee with cheap labor - saying how many unemployed people would love to have their jobs. I am betting there are quite a few unemployed executives out there who would relish the chance to turn this pathetic example of City management around - it would certainly be a breath of fresh air not to have to listen to the same lies and half truths from this group for awhile.
The City is covering their butts on this one - knowing full well they had no case to stand in front of the labor board. How much money did the lawyers waste pretending they had a leg to stand on? How much more money are they going to waste by being similarly stupid before this City Manager, his loyal inept band of directors, and most especially, his bottom of the barrel legal team are booted out and replaced with human beings who care about the people they serve more than they care about themselves and their pretend importance???????
Pay attention everyone, if you have learned only ONE thing by this and the dozen other examples that have appeared here the past year or two - please let it be this:
DOUG KRIEGER - puppet for DICK Furstenau, and his Jr., GRANT Wherli - and Dougs entire team of GUTLESS Directors are destroying this City from the inside out. These people are the worst example of "leadership" to ever reach so far beyond their level of incompetence - and every day we continue to pay them a salary and pay for their car allowances and their bonus's and all their other special perks we are resident are being taken. They SHOULD be arrested for theft, but sending them packing would be a nice place to start.
Shame these officers, as well as all City Employee's, and every resident of this town, have had to pay the price this long for their arrogant selfish incompetence.
Are you kidding? There are 200 less front line employees than their were three years ago. All the clout boys are still there. When they went through the first round of layoffs, Bob Marshall got a big bonus. As they were showing the front line the door, they were hiring consulants to do an $80,000 study and reversed most of what the consultants told them to do less than a year later. You won't find Doug or Bob out plowing the streets will you? So they saved you $100 a year in taxes, hope you enjoyed shoveling out your street, hope you don't die waiting for an ambulance when you have a heart attack shoveling. You know they are shutting down ambulances every day because of manpower. If we vote any of these council people back in, we are crazy.
Managm4ent doesn't trust the unions, the unions don't trust management. From what I hear, management is terrible. Run totally by the inept Mayor and City Council with no professional advice. How could they? None of them have ever managed a City before. We have a double dipping cop and a snake oil salesman Managing the place.
A Naperville Police Officer told me that the City Manger offered them a private retirement package, as in not offered to anyone else last week. Is this why these guys are retiring? Why not offer it City Wide and get rid of more expensive people?
One final thought, how can the City offer this to Police Officers? Doesn't that have to be negotiated? The cops are union. They have a contract. What is going on here?
If the police and human resources department are truly being run professionally (as they both should be) someone would either have to be brain dead or totally incompetent to not be anticipating and predicting when certain employees will be turning in their retirement papers. The only part that is sometimes hard to predict is when an officer might resign to take a promotion elsewhere, though that doesn't happen very often and with the way most of them brag about being a candidate somewhere else... again this isn't much of a surprise.
Giving the city the benefit of the doubt that they took these anticipated resignations/retirements into consideration when they found it necessary to lay off six officers I would tend to think the city has no immediate plans to bring any of them back.
On the other hand if these four or maybe eight officers knew all along what their personal plans where and and they deliberately withheld this information from the city and their own union members during layoff talks it just gives the police union a worse black eye than it already has earned. If the city honestly didn't know about any of the four or eight positions coming open there is a strong possibility both the layoffs and all of the costs of the labor complaint could have been avoided if everyone had been honest and worked together.
We can't ignore the possibility that the city both new about the possibility of these four or eight resignations and still proceeded with the layoffs. If they did proceed with the idea they could call these officers back from layoff whenever they wanted it would truly show a mean and cold hearted approach to personnel management that is completely out of character with the historic tone and temperament of the citizens of Naperville. Plus the labor complaint hasn't been resolved yet, calling the officers back to duty won't dismiss it, and if we end up paying back pay and legal costs we will end up paying more and not having saved a dime. If that happens some major changes will be required in terms of who is running the legal, human resources, and police departments. The city manager will be ultimately responsible for any mess created by his underlings.
Finally, if the city was counting on these four or eight on top of the six that have already departed then kudos for them for doing a bang up job of paying attention to the details and doing what was needed to trim the police department. No one said it would be easy and the police union has demonstrated repeatedly that their only interest is their own financial interest above and beyond the financial interest of all of the citizens of Naperville. From day one the police union has NOT been a partner in trying to help Naperville solve, reduce, or eliminate the budget deficit. We may not yet have the police department staffing where it still needs to be, but at least it is a solid step in the right direction.
If the City caves in to this bunch of crap, then we know they thought they'd lose the unfair labor practice claim. They are all about spin and cover. There isn't a transparent bone in their bodies.
One thing that might be good is that if, and that's a big if, the retirees are supervisors, and they are hiring beat cops back, I'm all for it. But that won't happen. These inept fools will try to hire cops, and promote their pals so they can sit inside and surf the Internet.
By the way, be interesting if the Sun investigated the City's storm response a little more. Lisle and Downers were clear. Did we fire too many front line City employees and keep the beloved high-priced managers? ABSOLUTELY. Ask Public Works how many front line people went versus managers. I'm sure you'll get no response. Once again these fools didn't focus on services, they canned the people that challenged their ideas and authority. Now, we're left with inexperienced dummies. Lisle and Downers had the same amount of snow and wind. Just more people to do the work and smarter people to adapt to the changing circumstances. Naperville used to be the best run City around. Now it's the WORST.
Bring those coppers back ASAP!!!!!!!