The national, now global protest against big business and banks has landed in downtown Naperville. Demonstrators decry things like too much money in politics, corporate personhood and the growing disparity of wealth in the U.S. Were you there? Did you see the goings on, or even participate? Did you even think it would happen here? What are your thoughts?
Occupy Naperville
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I was in downtown Naperville this past Saturday morning and saw the Occupy protesters assembling in front of the old Nichols Library with their signs.
I want to know, while they were preparing to "occupy" Naperville, at the same time were there groups assembled to occupy Oak Brook, Burr Ridge, Hinsdale, Winnetka, Wilmette, Highland Park, Glencoe, Lake Forest, Kenilworth, various other North Shore Communities?
Naperville is hardly the "1%" these people may claim and is mostly middle and upper middle class. Yes, there are some here with real money, but many more that are all for show and no go.
Finally, I had to laugh seeing one sign that says "Fox News Makes People Stupid". You have to be kidding me. So ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC is the smart news to be watching? They are not total left leaning and "fair"? Please. Fine, consider Fox to be right leaning. That's five against one.
Exactly right - my bad on picking up the wrong time on the posting. Thank you SWNT.
Okay, that makes more sense.
Now, I will submit that it is the leaders, not the drones, that set the "pace" of any movement. By the last 4-6 weeks, the leaders were the drudges, anarchists, losers, and idiots in the movement. The others had gone home.
How do i know? I am one of the few who were there.
Anon comments were actually confirming, expounding upon, and supporting my viewpoint.
I believe Anon was responding to your Thomas Fitzpatrick chain letter on "Obama's socialism", "Say What? | December 4, 2011 4:58 PM" where the opening paragraph said " If only those deadbeat Occupy Wall Street folks would wake up and see reality…"
I didn't post anything 5:09 am ---- do you mean Southwest Naperville Taxpayer's post?
I responded to your 5:09 am post, your later post was very much in support of working people, and I agree with 99% of that, but the 5:09 post was something completely different, and began by saying Occupy Wallstreet Protestors were a bunch of deadbeats. SOME may be, but not the majority - the majority are making a valid point about greed and and the misdirection of this country.
Comment to anon:
Apparently you cannot read --- try reading my post again, slim! The 1% does not refer in any way to the OWS crap. Again, if you actually read it you will hopefully grok that it is in clear support of middle class working people.
-No one thinks Wall Street "Owes" us anything.
-Wall Street thinks YOU owe THEM.
-They engage in criminal fraud and are rewarding themselves for it with YOUR tax money.
-If you're willing to take it, we pity your lack of self-respect.
The problem here is that you are working under the assumption that most of the people in the 99% aren't willing to work. That is simply a false accusation, and I don't really know anyone who wants to tax the wealthy so that we can give a free ride to the lazy and unambitious.
The point of what is happening in this country is that people who ARE willing to work can't get jobs, and people who are working, still can't make it from pay check to pay check.
It is very easy to simply dismiss the problem by saying that the lower 1/2 of the workforce is in some way lazy or defective and that therefore the top 1% should not have to contribute in any way - but it's a load. I don't have any desire to see the redistribution of wealth as the GOP has decided to term anything that doesn't allow the mega corporations and billionaires to take everything they can from everyone they can without conscience to consideration of the consequences.
A level playing field, that allows people to work, and allows those people to be paid a living wage is NOT socialism, it's something this country has thrived upon in the past, and something that somehow has been lost on the majority of ultra conservative followers, and it is something so many who are as fortunate as many of the readers of this paper apparently won't consider until the issues that plague the majority of the WORKING class hit them directly and they see their own standard of living diminish.
Common sense and decency would lead this town, and this country, back in the right direction, but our government can't see fit to lead us there, and sadly, the majority of the population has decided it is better to take a philosophical stand against all things that don't fit the dogma than it is to move forward with ethics and basic human decency as the standard.
I find it hard to believe some bloggers here believe taking more and more from one group to give to another group is NOT socialism, and that pilorizing the group being taken from is not class warfare. Where is Webster when you need him?
I guess the first point of correction is that it is not "taking" from someone when you refuse to give them more! That is the simple thought process of socialist big government planners.
There are no benefits being taken from seniors unless you count the huge hit medicare is taking with Obamacare. There is nothing being taken from students when we refuse to forgive their debt (and pell grants and the like are at a high point), the unemployed are sitting at 99 weeks of benefits and it is not "taking" when we decide to limit it to that two year figure, and finally it is not "taking" from anyone,middle class or otherwise, when we decide to quit making Social Security even more unstable and closer to insolvency by not extending the tax cut.
See, I certainly do not endorse aberrant behavior such as tanking existing social programs, and I certainly do not divide my own country into 99% and 1%.
As I said, the fact that corporations pay out bonuses should not worry our pretty little heads unless, of course, there are socialist views deeming that as wrong. Also, before you jump on the bandwagon of shipping jobs overseas, you might want to study up on both the U.S. Federal Tax code AND the Labor Dept stats on jobs, which will show that there have basically been as many jobs from foreign corporations created in the U.S. as jobs shipped overseas.
Remember, not only did you contribute to Social Security but your employer did too. It totaled 15% of your income before taxes. If you averaged only $30K over your working life, that's close to $220,500.
> >>
> >>If you calculate the future value of $4,500 per year (yours & your employer's contribution) at a simple 5% (less than what the govt. pays on the money that it borrows), after 49 years of working you'd have $892,919.98.
> >>
> >>If you took out only 3% per year, you'd receive $26,787.60 per year and it would last better than 30 years (until you're 95 if you retire at age 65) and that's with no interest paid on that final amount on deposit! If you bought an annuity and it paid 4% per year, you'd have a lifetime income of $2,976.40 per month.
> >>
> >>The folks in Washington have pulled off a bigger Ponzi scheme than Bernie Madhoff ever had.
> >>
> >>Entitlement my ass, I paid cash for my social security insurance!!!! Just because they borrowed the money, doesn't make my benefits some kind of charity or handout!!
> >>
> >>Congressional benefits ---- free healthcare, outrageous retirement packages, 67 paid holidays, three weeks paid vacation, unlimited paid sick days, now that's welfare, and they have the nerve to call my social security retirement entitlements?
> >>
> >>We're "broke" and can't help our own Seniors, Veterans, Orphans, Homeless
> >>
> >>In the last months we have provided aid toHaiti,Chile , and Turkey . And nowPakistan ......home of bin Laden. Literally, BILLIONS of DOLLARS!!!
> >>
> >>Our retired seniors living on a 'fixed income' receive no aid nor do they get any breaks while our government and religious organizations pour Hundreds of Billions of $$$$$$'s and Tons of Food to Foreign Countries!
> >>
> >>They call Social Security and Medicare an entitlement even though most of us have been paying for it all our working lives and now when it's time for us to collect, the government is running out of money. Why did the government borrow from it in the first place? Imagine if the *GOVERNMENT* gave 'US' the same support they give to other countries.
> >>
> >>Sad isn't it?
> >>
> >>99% of people won't have the guts to forward this.
> >>
> >>I'm one of the 1% -- I Just Did.
> >>
> >>"You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him."
> >>~~James D. Miles
> >>�
> >>"I think Congressmen should wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers so we could identify their corporate sponsors."
> >>�
I find it hard to believe some bloggers here believe directing our tax dollars to help the middle class and other less fortunate people in our own country is some sort of class warfare or socialism, while directing our tax dollars to help corporations (oh yeah, corporations are people too, and pizza is a vegetable) who pay out multimillion dollar bonuses to the extremely fortunate, send jobs and money overseas, and pump money into lobbying efforts to protect the gravy train is perfectly OK.
How is it fair to take benefits from seniors, disabled, students, unemployed, and people trying to raise their famillies on low wages, just to have more money for the extremely fortunate? I prefer to see my tax money going to benefit the less fortunate 99%, accusations of socialism be damned!
The class warfare against the middle class, and other less fortunate, has been going on far too long. Maybe class warfare is new to the 1%ers, but the 99%ers have been intimately aware of it for many years.
The PIIGS in Europe are the perfect real-time example of this.
Love to you, your family, friends, and enemies...
Steve/Dad
From: Thomas Fitzpatrick ;
To:
Subject: Perfect Example and Well Said
Sent: Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:57:16 PM
I usually don’t pass these things along, but this is such a perfect example. If only those deadbeat Occupy Wall Street folks would wake up and see reality…
An Economics Professor claimed that Socialism did not work.The class had insisted that Obama's socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.
The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama's plan". All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A.... (substituting grades for dollars - something closer to home and more readily understood by all).
After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little.
The second test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.
As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.
To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed. It could not be any simpler than that. (Please pass this on) Remember, there IS a test coming up. The 2012 elections. These are possibly the 5 best sentences you'll ever read and all applicable to this experiment:
1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.
2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!
5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.
Southwest Naperville Taxpayer,
You conveniently offer excuses by trying to blame everything on the GOP. Unfortunately, the facts are not on your side and you remain uninformed.
The trillions of dollars you refer to are mostly based in the failed Keynsian Economics of the Obama stimulus. As I said, almost all of the TARP money has been received (and I will add that Obama backed TARP).
The facts on taxes, who pays them, and who uses them are not anyone's talking points but simple data points. Close to half of all earners pay no federal taxes, period. There is no way to weasel around this as this is the accurate, true information.
The fact that for some reason you do not understand the debilitating effect of entitlement programs on our current economic problems indicates younger uninformed on financial matters, so perhaps you should brush up a bit on Federal budgeting & spending.
Note that bonuses to anyone does not affect the deficits, the national debt, or any other federal issue. Of course, that bit of info DOES get in the way of your call for class warfare.
What's funny is that some people can support Wall Street and the rest of the top 1% making as much money as they can as capitalism at it's best, yet feel entitled to beat up on the people who teach as demanding too much money and ruining our economy.
Let's not throw out the fact that teachers (or firefighters, or police, etc...) are paid for via our taxes - we all know they are, BUT if you think you aren't paying for those extravagant bonus's and salaries you are flat our wrong. WE pay for everything, be it in a product or a tax or a government bail-out. The same people who are trying to say it's OK for the top 1% to take everything they can get while maximizing every tax loophole and special exemption they are handed are the same who are saying their neighbors who work for THEM/with THEM are making way too much money at 50 or 75 thousand a year, and should be fired to save the tax dollars.
Guess what? You can't have it both ways! I strongly believe in responsible Government spending, and I strongly believe the Government is way too big and way too intrusive on our everyday lives - but it isn't the middle class that is beating up this economy, it is the power brokers who are buying our government officials and feel entitled to so much more than everyone else that are destroying all of us.
We need to cut spending, and we need a FAIR tax code - we don't need to bow down to the fortunate few and allow them to take from the millions of us that are hovering just above the poverty line (we used to be the middle class). Cut the loopholes, insist that this top 1% reinvest in this country - and for those who won't do that, increase their tax rate to the point where putting greed and self promotion are costing them more than doing what is right.
Give the working class the opportunity to WORK - then watch the economy improve. The majority of the 99% are completely willing to work and to spend to take care of their families - but so long as all the money in this country is stuck at the top, horded in fact - that can't happen. Take a look at a non-partisan breakdown of who controls the money in this country today. The top 1% controls more than 40%. I've yet to find anyone who can tell me what makes this a good thing for ANYONE (except of course the top 1%).
Trilliions of our tax dollars have been, and will be spent to clean up the economic mess put in motion long before Obama took office. The repeated assertion that it's the result of the Democrats support of entitlement progams, teachers, unions, and Obama's out of control spending will only resonate with the uninformed of the electorate.
The fact that big bonuses have been paid to bailed out execs in this scam, while some politicians want to undermine job creation, and nickel and dime those who have fallen victim to the resultant job losses, and foreclosures is absurd. Not working to help the less fortunate in society, while unabashedly bolstering up the extremely fortunate is beyond ridiculous right now.
The conservative talking points about the 50% who don't pay taxes are known to be based on misconceptions, and misinfomation. The facts are explained in the article at the following link.
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3505
The 1%ers control the majority of the money, so it should be no surprise they pay a good portion of the total taxes paid.
Funny, I think the 1% should stand up and say they ARE MAD AS HECK and tired of paying almost the entire bill for the 49% who pay ZERO fed income taxes yet partake in all the same services!
Of course, I am also aware that most (not yet all--- we will never see all the GM money) of the TARP money has been paid back with interest, and re-spent by our elected idiots. I am also aware that there is nothing wrong with paying bonuses in a successful business in a capitalist society, either.
At the same time we have representatives in Congress willing to pander to uninformed voters by any means available by extending unemployment beyond the 99 weeks (yes, already at two years) without figuring out how to pay for it. These same Congress reps appear willing to continue to tank our economy as the platform for their 15 month re-election campaign!
Amazingly we still have many in Congress willing to sell out our society to their union masters and other big-money interest groups (Obama took more banker's donations than anyone in history), such as stealing from the GM bondholders and giving that money to the union.
Southwest Naperville Taxpayer is absolutely right. ----- we need to get see crazy-eyed liberals voted out so we can fix our economic problems and get the country back on track!!
Here is a link to an article I'm sure will be of interest to anyone trying to understand the economic disaster we have been dealing with over the past several years.
http://pubrecord.org/nation/8622/pentagon-papers-wall-street/
Now there's no doubt, WE'VE BEEN HAD!!!!
The more I learn about all this, the more I realize it's definitely time for the 99%ers to stand up and shout WE'RE MAD AS H---, AND WE'RE NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE.
All this taxpayer money is being spent to rectify this huge scam, with multimillion dollar bonuses paid out to many on top, and little or no provisions to recoup the money back to the taxpayers.
At the same time we have representatives in Congress debating whether unemployed people who have lost their jobs, and who may have just had there homes foreclosed on, should or shouldn't get their unemployment insurance extended.
Amazingly, some in Congress who have signed their souls away continue a fight to protect the 1%ers, including many who benefitted from this scam, from paying a nickel more to help the situation.
This article puts things in perspective. It makes all the petty bickering just that...petty bickering. The quality of life for 99% of the people in this country is on the line!!! Let's elect people in Congress who have the capacity to understand the problems, and the ability to work to resolve them rather than using their positions as self-serving platforms for partison political campaigns for the next elections.
Well, I think that one possible reason no one is posting about what a TEA attendee would do if pepper sprayed is because the title of the thread is "Occupy Naperville" and refers to the OWS activities in Naperville.
So, explain again how the TEAs are relevant? Because, if they are, than we also need to know what a middle aged, or older, code pink attendee would do if pepper sprayed, and an old aged AARP member, and a Hollywood producer.........
Here's a lnk to the report
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2098584,00.html
I see that the people who so decry bad behavior on the part of the occupy Wall Streeters, if it happened at all, are silent when a cop goes and sprays peaceful protesters with Pepper spray. The video is all over the web and there's no excuse for what that "officer" did. I wonder what middle aged Tea Party demonstrators would do if they were hit with that stuff? notice i am not painting all law enforcement officials with the same broad brush. It was only one guy and he should bear the criminal and professional consequences for what he did. And i have to say that there is evidence that the homeless, including drug addicts, have been gravitating toward the occupy movement just for free food. A few overdoses have led to them getting help rather than dying in an alley.
On another note, I'd like surfing's comments on the Time Magazine report on the LACK of social mobility. It was an integral part of your argument for capitalism and it made sense. But what happens when there isn't any social or economic mobility? Capitalism is like a game of Monopoly, it only works when everybody can play. It's game over when one player, or in our national case, the top 1% get all the money.
We do ---- the problem is that those like you cannot see the bigger factor of the extreme liberal bias. There have been more than enough groups that have researched this and the data is clear.
A recent example?
Well, X years ago a guy named Bill Clinton had several claims against him of sexual harassing (one was of rape). In the first three days after they became public, CBS/ABC/NBC had a total ofmthree stories on them. Jump forward toma guy named Herman Cain--- he has similar claims and the same three media outlets carry over 50 stories in the first three days! Note that the disparity with newspapers is even greater.
The "media" doesn't give a damn about liberalism or conservativism. They love politics because almost ALL of that unbelievable amount of cash spent by the candidates goes into their pockets! It's in their own financial interest to inflame the politicians and voters. I don't understand why people can't see this.
Anonymous,
Got it! Sorry i read it incorrectly the first time, and I do understand your point.
Unfortunately, the media has an imperative power in the election process, and it is clearly of a very liberal agenda. Hopefully, voters will see past the media in 2012 (especially those under 30 who appear to march in close goose-step to the media swill).
;)
Surf,
When the TEA party was having their legal rallies, aka following laws. They were smeared non stop in the media as being racist. One of the proofs often sited was that they were predominantly "white", aka inherently racist.
White = Racist in the media
From looking at my TV, it appears that the unlawful OWS assemblies are also predominantly white, so where is the media labeling as racist?
If TEA is racist because they are white
Then OWS must also be racist because they are white
To the post by Anonymous | November 13, 2011 3:12 PM |:
If I read your post correctly, you are stating that anyone in the TEA party or Occupy Wall Street are white, and thus they are racists.
If this is a correct reading, than I can only say that the only thing I am assured of in your comment is that you by definition must be the racist via your equating white with racism. I will add that I strongly suspect that you have never been to a gathering of either group.
If I have read your post incorrectly, please edify us all.
To the post by Anonymous | November 13, 2011 3:12 PM |:
If I read your post correctly, you are stating that anyone in the TEA party or Occupy Wall Street are white, and thus they are racists.
If this is a correct reading, than I can only say that the only thing I am assured of in your comment is that you by definition must be the racist via your equating white with racism. I will add that I strongly suspect that you have never been to a gathering of either group.
If I have read your post incorrectly, please edify us all.
Appeal,
Did 60 minutes go back to Pelosi's brother or brother in law getting rich selling Federally Foreclosed properties getting a 10% commission as a selected vendor?
I think its Boxers husband that has the mineral import rights from China for a mineral formerly mined in the US that Clinton put off limits with an executive order making the Boxers very wealthy. Its been a while, but I remember this being reported in CA but not nationally.
There are so many of these that you can't keep track of them.
And if Solyndra was not enought to check your confidence what the ?, check out the LA Times story on Siga Drug. $400 plus million for a rigged deal to benefit a politically favored contributor for a drug that cannot be tested and may be unnecessary. When an employee at FDA questioned the need for it, she was replaced and Siga got their $400+ million. You do not need to join the Tea Party. You need to think like us. Less government is good government. How come people in the government who are responsible for Siga and Solyndra are not under arrest?
60 minutes had a depressing segment tonight on just how corrupt our government is. Not that I thought it was a paragon of virtue but it's apparently really easy and legal to make money with inside knowledge. Boehner got rich buying health company stocks before the public option was killed. Hastert got rich selling land near the prairie parkway. and Pelosi, well by then I was so mad I was yelling at the TV and didn't hear all of it. But she made money on a whole bunch of IPOs and used her connections to help make her investment decisions. So she's just as guilty as anyone. Arrgh. Makes me want to join the tea party.
How about going back to the first elections, where the loser for President became the VP!
http://frankmillerink.com/2011/11/anarchy
Its true, oh its true...
"Surfing | November 12, 2011 12:59 PM | Reply
So, given the Over 3000 arrests, several charges of rape/sexual aggravation, and now two murders ------- are there ANY idiots our there still trying to compare the occupy wall street crowd to the TEA party gatherings?"
Both are predominantly "White" aka racist?
Appeal
Figure it this way, Illinois has two progressive in office now 1 R, 1D.
If the State govts pick em, you still have two progressives from IL who won't vote for China trade or the bail outs of the NY banks or most of the other stupidity that is killing our state.
Look at the fiscal condition of our formerly great country before and after direct election.
Look at what it has done for your personal freedoms, which are being sliced away at an alarming rate.
If our rights and freedoms were a baloney, I would say that the meat slicer is nearing the end of the roll. Monitoring our behavior in our homes with smart surveillance devices.
I had to look at it a couple of times but i agree with Anonymous, except for one thing. i believe we still should have direct election of senators. Anonymous, do you REALLY want Mike Madigan and his minions picking your senators? Or Pat Quinn? Even i don't like those guys.
So, given the Over 3000 arrests, several charges of rape/sexual aggravation, and now two murders ------- are there ANY idiots our there still trying to compare the occupy wall street crowd to the TEA party gatherings?
Both social engineering government and the Wall Street crowd are to blame for the meltdown and export of our economy to China, to the benefit of the above two groups.
Wall Street spent $600 million over the last decade educating Washington, they are still getting their money's worth, and yes Obama is the #1 recipient of Wall Street money.
The solution is IMHO simple, end the direct election of Senators who represent only themselves and return to the State Governments appointing the Senators. Most current legislation would be DOA.
Second, break up the big banks and bring back Glass Steigel which protected us for 70 years.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
If you want to drive down the cost of education, make it illegal for government employees to belong to unions or strike, and end the student loan programs. The cost of education would crash overnight.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The so called "smart meters" are a social engineering project which is designed to modify our behavior by punishing the use of electricity at peak hours, when coal is burned.
The excuse the City Council is using is that we need them for the electric cars that no one is buying. The Chevy Volt from the collectivized Government car company is a Total Failure.
The rare minerals required for the high tech batteries and magnets are located in China and are in very short supply. So even if we shared the great leaders vision of a carbon free economy, the rare minerals to make it happen barely exist.
I do sleep better know that the Crony Capitalists like Al Gore, GE etc are getting rich off the "Green Energy" programs which our children and grandchildren will be paying for with a dramatically lower, but equal, standard of living.
Lastly, I believe Justice Breyer would correctly call the smart meters an "Orwellian Surveillance System" designed to monitor the activities of every citizen with their formerly private homes.
Anon is right!
I attended many of the early council mtgs on this, along with the budget presentations, etc.
Observation? The council was dismissive & ignorant & condescending to those who spoke up and questioned either the program, the sneakiness of the program, or oth.
Further, the budget highlights that mostof the $$$ is going to the meters ( the real pointbof contention) versus actually upgrading the grid itself ( if memory serves, it was about 12 to 14 mil for the meters, and 6 to 8 mil for the grid itself.
Be very aware: the council members can make all the shallow promises they want, they will not always be on the council. The meters will, in time, result in
A) multi- tiered pricing ( with the only end result being much higher costs to consumers)
B) access to home usage habits to others
C) the ability for the city to create rolling blackouts (see California. For examples of this)
If by visionary you mean egotistical then you are right on. Upgrading the grid was fine, but shoving multi million dollar smart meters down the throats of residents without even considering asking us how we felt about it during a financial crisis was/is nothing short of thievery.
This is going to cost you more than realize, more than this group will ever tell you outright. Believe the projected rates being level at your own peril - until this year no one ever suggested your water rates were going to skyrocket 29% in a year either, and that is before the OTHER government spending junkies hit us with their 70+ percent increase. Mark my words, once the outcry about all of this calms down, a NEW rate structure will suddenly appear, and there will a spin where they couldn't "possibly" have predicted the ultimate increase in your rates.
This project is going to go down in history as an abject failure. The only thing left to be determined is who they will use as their fall guy.
YAY for the City Council!! Smart grid is going to help keep Naperville as one of the best citys in all of the USA. Money well spent and thank you to the visionaries on council for maintaining and improving our infrastructure with NO rate increases. Those opposed to this are the 1% and the rest of us appreciate what the city is doing! THANK YOU! ...Except you Krause.
Anyone read the Letters o the Editor today?
It is hard to believe ANYONE out there still believes there is a social security trust building a surplus! Talk about aired!
Maybe no one ever told them that the Democrat Congress decades ago voted to make the trust available for general spending and o replace the "trust" with IOUs from the federal government, thus making Social Security the single largest holder of our national debt no, it is not China!).
Or, perhaps it is the writer's deranged dogma and ideology and not ignorance driving their opinion (because it is certainly not facts that they shared in the letter, though the Sun still printed the inaccuracies and swill).
Everyone watch t.v. tonight when YOUR ELECTED City Council will vote on spending the next Million Plus on the Smart Grid they decided we should have. It's a tiny piece o the 22 Million dollar total, but it should be quite a show. Some will argue that the money is too much, pay lip service to the groups that don't want this thing, then of course, they will vote it through because the council and inept management team won't back down and admit they have made a massive mistake.
D'ya think any of the occupy wall street protestors see the irony of their little tissy it:
They are calling the banks and corporations and the hard workers greedy, yet they are marching & demanding free stuff from the rest of us who are paying taxes!!
They want their school debt forgiven (who doesn't), they want a huge increase in the minimum wage, they want guaranteed jobs and shorter hours (inhale seen signs maxin at 35 hrs/wk, they want free food, etc.
I think that makes them the greedy ones!
More of the same.
Question:
Do any of you really believe the fed should forgive student debt and have the taxpayers pick-up the tab?
I will admit upfront I don't. My reasons are simple:
1)The current loan system allows the colleges to have costs that have escalated as quickly, or mores, than healthcare, so why would we agree to reset the clock to start again? This would be rewarding aberrant behavior.
2)Despite any additional needs out there, regardless of the perceived need, we are broke. Our national debt is quickly approaching 5 TRILLION dollars, it just hit our entire GDP (Greece, etc, aint much higher), and no earlier period ever had to deal with such debt. the cupboard is bare.
3)53% of the current graduating class of college seniors have taken 6 years to graduate with a 4 year degree, and the average college tenure for a 4 yr degree is very close to 5 yrs. Why? Because we have a system that encourages it
4)Why should this generation be given a bye on their debt? just because theirs is higher? Perhaps they should have graduated in 4 years, instead of 5 or 6 (or more).
5)Not everyone should go to college -- what is wrong with starting in JUCO or going to trade school?
6)IF we ever look to forgive or limit school debt, it should be tied to reaching a degree, subject matter (after all, we are falling behind the rest of the world in math,sciences, reading.....), and a limit of 4 years of schooling (even our NCAA are limited to 4 years of eligibility).
7)IF we put limits on the yearly payback (example: current law ends debt after 25 yrs.. new proposal makes it 20 yrs and limits payback to 10% of income), than the loan upfront should also be tied to the degree subject matter. in other words, we should never agree to fund a degree that even in concept can never pay for itself).
Comments?
anon,
Learn to read without YOUR filters of personal bias, okay?
I would also be interested in exactly what GOP talking points i addressed and which names I called you, anon.
I am pretty sure I addressed more than one side of the issue on hand --- capitalism --- ( which IMHO appeal, to whom my last post was addressed, did not)
My points were fact-based, as opposed anecdotal asking points ( look n the mirror, buddy). The left ALWAYS wants to point the fingers of McCarthyism when anyone falls out of their goose-step (like that reference?), and in this case I still point out that they should look inward, at their President and the literal words from his and his campaign, to see that he is trying to duplicate FDR's tactics, including his Brown Scare.
Not a talking point, bub, just undocumented factoid!
Now, back to you.
Hopefully you realize you are doing exactly what you rail about and what I accuse appeal of ---- throwing out talking points void of personal thought.
With zero data or understanding or comprehension of my post, your knee-jerk move is to invoke the name of Rove, an inane inference that I must be an acolyte of his, than clumsily transition into your appeal for social programs (again, the inference being that I am against them).
MY observation? Your post reeks of partisanship and the inability (or refusal) to read, comprehend, and understand the posts and stances of others. You use your own assumptions and inferences only to reinforce your own biases, all not-so-cleverly cased as an openminded attempt to correct others.
By the way, since you inferred it (again!), can you point out in my post where I screamed "socialism" to everything Obama says????
If this group expects any credibility, they should have the King of Protestors, Scott Huber, lead the way!!! Free Scott Huber!!!
No, I don't believe it's a big conspiracy, but I do believe that MANY large organizations (such as the insurance industry for example, ) are sitting and holding in hopes of driving Obama out in favor of a party that will be more favorable to their interests.
I'm with you in that I too have worked (for the past 30 years) for companies, both big and small - public and private - but I can honestly say that I have never been treated as badly as I have been over the past 5 years, anywhere, big or small. The reason from everything I can see is more than just that money is tight (that is the case everywhere), but they do it now simply because they can. Those with the decision making power are much the same as those we talk about on a bigger scale nationally. They take for themselves, bonus pay, raises, enhanced benefits, while they take from everyone else.
It's a problem on a small scale, it's a problem on a large scale, and it's taking this country and it's people down farther every single day - and my question remains the same - who benefits when the top 1% own more than 40% of the wealth in this country besides that top 1%. I'm NOT in favor of wealth distribution to solve the problem, but I am in favor of those who ARE a part of the problem being called on it - and supporting the working class in every endeavor until the situation remedies itself. If WE ALL stop accepting that the greed and self serving behavior of those who are the problem is acceptable, they will have no choice but to change it in order to move forward. If so many continue to sanction and support those who are responsible for the imbalance, and even support them ..... change will never come.
Point made. Typical.
Anybody catch Mego's column?
As usual, his personal opinions overide whatnimhave been told is his intellect. His comment on the "....a deeply conservative Congress..." would indicaten he MAY be unaware that the Congress is made up of the House (conservative with a GOP majority) AND the Senate (liberal with a Democrat majority).
Not a good thing for amajor columnist, eh?
If you substitute Conservative for Liberal in the majority of your comments here - the same post would apply to you. GOP talking points and repeated name calling doesn't make you right ..... and if you opened your mind instead of keeping it slammed shut to everything that hasn't been pumped into your mind by Carl Rowe and company, you might actually see that there are strong and weak arguments on BOTH sides of this argument. Accept that there are social programs that are absolutely necessary in the world we live in, and eliminate the non-essential government intrusion into our lives, and we might all just get somewhere - but we won't so long as every conservative screams socialism in response to every word Obama says. To be fair, liberals also have to accept that we can't solve every problem this nation has with another government program. Accept that Social Security has to be modified ... there are really no choices on that - but give up on the Bush Tax Cuts for Multi Millionaires and maintain the essential safety nets that keep those without options from living on the streets.
It can be done, but it won't happen so long as the response to someone who thinks differently than you is to call them uneducated or stupid. Truly, the only absolutely stupid comments I have seen out here are from people who can't consider the possibility that someone else has any point.
The two biggest published points from the occupy naperville I have seen are from one interviewed individual who was complaining why is congress arguing about federal debt limits when there are X million children in poverty and a list of demands that had that all student loans should be forgiven.
In response to the first, the federal government is more that 14 trillion in debt, even if we pay back 1 billion a day with no interest it will take over 38 years to be debt free!. Secondly where in the constitution does it say the government must make sure everyone has equal financial footing. We are a free market and the market will determine and whinning that you are not getting enough is doing nothing.
Regarding student loans, instead of looking at what people pay maybe more should look at why are the schools so expensive, I suggest you look at your local school district first on what is driving that. But more important instead of the attitude of I must have this education from this school no matter the cost, those going to school should be examining the full cost aspect and maybe looking at lest costly school options. My children who are approaching the end of high school do not have an unlimited college budget and hopefully they will realize that it will be very important to leave college with essentially no debt will get them further in the long run than the degree from whatever hot item school of the day there is.
The occupy movement is nothing more that a complaint about the so called class warefare and an expectation that the government will rescue them with another handout that will be payed for with more debt and a bigger mortgage on our children's future.
You rasie a fair point about compensation of officers vs shareholders.
But, do you honestly believe that business are collectively conspiring to sink the economy in order to remove Obama? The country and its industry have survived both liberal and conservative governments for literally hundred of years. It's hard to believe that business would limit its own success and profitability for several years simply to make Obama look bad. Even if he wins re-election, which I think is likely, he'll be out of office 4 years later. Do you really think business will continue to operate in a collective fashion designed to make him look bad? In my experience, business looks out for itself, it doesn't drag its feet to make any politician look good or bad.
For further evidence, consider that "Wall Street" contributions to Obama's campaign exceed similar contributions to all Republican candidates combined. Again, that doesn't sound like a group of people conspiring to get him out of office. ( I'd love to cite the reference for that last bit of data, but I cannot find it right now...)
My last comment on the subject is that I've been working for over 40 years. I've worked for large companies and small ones. The ones that treated me the best - in terms of benefits and salary-- were those that were most profitable. I don't know which was the cause and which was the effect, but I learned that I'd rather work for a more profitable firm than a less profitable one.
Anon needs to drop the liberal platitudes and spend time trying to understand numbers!
Throwing money at anyone, whether it is an exec or twenty non
-execs, is not good for shareholders. I will also say that as long as the 1% you cry about are getting it honestly, I really don't care that they are growing their wealth quicker than the rest of us.
It has been my observation that the majority of the wealth & job creators take tremendously greater risks than the rest of us, thus the reward should also be much greater.
By the way, the same 1% you write about are the same ones who put Obama in office. He took more money from the bankers than anyone, ever!
Note that everything you say about this group applies to the liberals and how they treated Bush or 8 years. From Pelosi to Reid to the NYT to Hollywood, they spent 8 years bucking Bush and trying to get him out of office, which was the transparent primary motive behind the many smokescreens they threw up or 8 years running.
The fact that they wanted Bush out was not just obvious, they said it often and loudly.
The difference twixt then and now is that Bush had more class than to blame it all on, say, Linton, and the GOP didn't whine about it, unlike Obama and the Dems today.
As you said, the fact that the Dems were willing to drag the entire nation down in the process was repulsive. They should have been ashamed of themselves, but they weren't as the the Dems were and still are too busy enjoying their money and power without regard to what they are doing to everyone else.
Business does have an obligation to shareholders - so why is it that rewarding the top 1% (be they CEO's or Bank Presidents or Politicians or Wall Street Executives) with millions is an acceptable "investment" where as expanding your company and hiring people who need jobs is not?
When fiscal responsibility means using the million/billions wisely instead of self rewarding - then the Corporations and Multi Millionaire executives will have a point - but so long as the top 1% is GROWING their personal wealth at record paces at the expense of everyone else in the nation, the "responsible" business decision arguement doesn't hold water.
It's greed, and its the desire to NOT allow the economy to improve until they push Obama out of office that are the primary motives behind the smokescreen. The fact that they want Obama out is up to them - but the fact that they are willing to drag the entire nation down in the process is repulsive. They should be ashamed of themselves, but they won't be .... too busy enjoying their money and power without regard to what they are doing to everyone else.
Appeal is using the overly-tired, overly-lame, and almost always wrong uber liberal chant of "McCarthyism" yet again!
The absolute truth right now is that what we are experiencing in America is a vapid repeat of the "Brown Scare" of the 1930s.
In fact, if you actually hear what is going on around you or read anything, Appeal, you will find that Obama admits this up front!
Time to back slowly away from the socialist, way-too-liberal talking points and think.
Try to ignore your Gop Derangement Syndrome, try to ignore your in bred hate, for just a few moments and think.
Obama wants to channel FDR ---- my family backed FDR, and Obama is no FDR.
In fact, Obama is quickly and regularly proving again and again that he is nothing more than a thug Chicago politician from the Chicago Democratic machine who has a golden teleprompter and gives good oratory.
As for capitalism, I would agree with those who accurately say that greed can and does get capitalism in trouble. By the way, greed exists in socialism, communism, hinduism, every -ism ------ do you know why? Human nature, baby!
YOUR system (which clearly is not capitalism) is a proven faiure on all levels and generally sucks.
How do Iknow what your system is and that is sucks? Easy ----- yours is not capitalism, and capitalism is the best working system on earth.
You and those like you try to use the fact that it is not perfect and that it is, as with all systems, affected by the greed of human nature and you try to use that to topple it.
Sorry, Charlie, but ain't happening because your system does suck and all your whining will never change that fact.
As I said ----- you need to get out more and read, observe, gather some actual data, and quit fixating on anecdotal info and talking points of those who are regularly wrong and on the wrong side of history and human growth.
Appeal2reason do you have a grammar or spell checker? The dummiecrates are in for a big defeat next year and then the job situation will begin to look better...
I have just one question: Where do you suggest business invest their trillions?
Businesses have obligations to shareholders. One of those obligations is a return on investment. You might argue that they have an obligation to their communities, as well, and I'd agree to a point. However, they have no obligation to provide paychecks for the sake of paychecks. They have an obligation to their owners to earn a return on every dollar they invest in equipment or jobs.
By the way, private and public pension funds are heavily invested in those corporations -- that's where the 8% assumed investment returns pensions are predicated upon are expected to come from, so if those corporations fail to make money and fail to grow, we all suffer. Who is going to pay for the public pensions if their investments fail to earn the assumed returns? Taxpayers. Who is going to fund your private pension, if you are among the fortunate few that still have one, if corporations can't? Answer, the PBGC. And who ultimately underwrites that agency? Taxpayers.
Pension, 401k and IRA investment returns are based upon the profits of the very corporations that this movement seems to be criticizing at every opportunity.
Yes, it would be terrific if there were more jobs in this country. But we won't get them by damning the very corporations that have to provide them. If those corporations don't provide those jobs who will? There's an old adage that "Capital goes where it is well treated" , not where it is despised and mistreated. You only have to look at the recent headlines concerning Sears, the CME and other companies to see their response to the recent increase in state taxes. And what drove those tax increases: reckless spending by the taxing authorities. Those tax increases weren't caused by companies or Capitalists. Let's aim our "occupation" where it belongs: Springfield and Washington, not Wall Street or downtown Naperville.
Corporations provide jobs. Profits are essential, not evil. Government cannot create jobs -- well, actually they can, but every job they create has to be funded with tax dollars. How many jobs to you want to pay taxes to support? How many jobs can you afford to support with your tax dollars?
Perfect example of what I'm talking about is a gut on CNN one of the 53% read his note. http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/26/news/economy/occupy_wall_street_backlash/index.htm
What he doesn't understand is that the world is different than 1996.
In 1996 jobs were plentiful. how ironic since we had a Democrat in the White house and a bunch of right-wing haters in congress. but 53percenter and his wife went back to school, got degrees and got jobs. great. But that's close to impossible now. what the occupyers want, among other things, is to have that opportunity back.
Read your post Anonymous and saw the video. It provides clear insight into where you're coming from and it's a sad place. just how paranoid are you. you're like the McCarthy people in the 1950s. There's a left eing threat everywhere, waiting to infiltrate and corrupt our youth. Problem is, if you, Surfing and others are true capitalists you don't seem to see what get's capitalism into trouble, the crazy imbalance we see now. NOBODY would give that woman and others like her a second thought if they had a job and responsibilities to deal with. But every time you close a factory and ship jobs overseas you create potential communists. The people protesting today are young and they see a world with little opportunity. Others see one with no potential for growth. That's what has people mad. Trickle down economics only works when something trickles. but business has become so greedy that it hangs on to every nickel. Business is sitting on trillions in assets and refuses to invest. People only look to government when all else fails. nobody would want Obamacare or anything like it if they could pay for it themselves. But if the money all goes to the top one percent, as 80% of it has over the last three decades. then people become disenchanted and question whether capitalism even works. If it doesn't work for them then it's deemed a failure. If you want another generation to embrace capitalism you have to give them something, not just crumbs. What made people ardent capitalists in the 80s and 90s was a great job and opportunity to advance. now all of that is gone. And, before you rant, it's all AFTER the big Bush tax cuts. They didn't work. So cutting taxes on "job creators" is not the answer.
Funny how these people want bankers in jail, but are not protesting our elected and appointed officials in the Federal Government. You know, the ones who ultimately set the rules and pass laws regarding home purchasing. Why isn't anyone demanding Barney Frank or Chris Dodd be arrested along with many others?
This is no grass roots effort. This is nothing more than anti-capitalist, anti-government liberals who want to distract from what is happening to this country. I would take any of the candidates running on the republican ticket over what we got now.
Heres your grass roots effort hard at work...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BARB-aSqYM&feature=player_embedded
The reason we are in this mess is the inadequacy of the people we elect to office.
IMHO the only fix is term limits, period!
There ar no surprises out there.
Doubling the unemployment rate tends to result in serious changes to median income, poverty rates, and a skewing of the wealth curve.
The answers more jobs, and this administration does not appear to "get it" yet.
Saw the people downtown and read the article later. more evidence that people are really suffering, even in Naperville. even more telling is that the usual righties on this blog haven't even bothered to bash them. i guess they really don't care about anyone or anything other than themselves. that's one reason were in such a mess, so many selfish people.