Saw that the market rally fizzled today because Standard and Poor threatened to downgrade the credit rating of some European countries. Wow, just who has the power in this freakin' world? Governments? Not! Seems like one freakin' company has the whole world by the b****. Just who the hell are these people anyway?

Who's back?

Appeal,

Where to  start?

First, I am not part  of the 1%.  I  also do not see us as at the mercy of the top 1%. So the top 1% brings down 40% of the income - big deal. They pay a much higher portion of total income taxes, while almost 50% pay no income taxes. Seems pretty progressive to me.

Second, your comments/question   on businesses laying off people, getting big raises, etc, as it applies to the term "class warfare"' is a non sequiter. You are using a binary 'if-than" argument to mislead the reader.

It is NOT   class warfare  because people question and object ----- it IS class warfare because it is being used by certain classes to create even greater schisms between Americans and, in many cases,  violence is being used to further these activities.  These people are using the differences in income disparity as an excuse to further their agendas of social redistribution. As a pour capitalist, which is the finest social system ion earth, I object!

Third, as I said in my long post, I doubt we will agree on our differences.  The data on income mobility supports my post but does not support your anecdotal assertions.

 I will also add that the GOP has not had the power to block  Obama's  policies, so you are also wrong on those facts. The Dems  had a filibuster-poof majority for 2 years ---- those policies are now in effect, and they are crippling us. Even now, the Dems control the Senate and anything Obama  wants that may\could be good CAN get through, but he can't even get Dems to support his ongoing socialist items.  

Obama was supposed to be different, a healer, change Washington. After 3 years, we know that he only meant that stuff IF everyone agreed with his ideas and agendas. If not, the GOP quickly found out he would move forward despite the costs, the infringement on capitalism, or the will of theAmerican people.

Note to surfing.. we are totally at the mercy of the top 1%, which i assume you are a part of. Nobody outside that sheltered group can seriously beleive in capitalism anymore. Last week the market was up because of Europe. Before that it was down. now this week it's up again. Give me a break. What kind of free market is that? Just scared idiots on wall Street or pure manipulation. the top 1% get to buy low one week and sell high the next.

What Surfing and others like him don't understand is that the protests today are people fed up. Iread your long post and if it were true i would still be a happy conservative. But it's not. over the last 30 years since the beginning of Reaganomics, Friedman Laffer supply side theories, median income in the U.S. has dropped, real income has shrunk, for everyone except the top 1 percent that is. That's what is seen as so unfair. you talk of social mobility. really, every three years? Come on, the only social mobility has been down, Over the last ten years the middle class has shrunk. and the people who used to be in it haven't gone to the upper class. they've gone down. It's your policies that have failed Surf, not Obama's. the Republicans have either filibustered or blocked everything he has tried. Want to see the reason for the bad economy or the protests, look in the mirror.

Question for surfing...
Why is it just business when the rich close plants, make sweetheart deals with politicians, layoff people and give themselves fat raises, foreclose on hard-working people. but as soon as anyone objects, it's class warfare?

To be clear (and fair), it means that his policies are socialist by definition and nature.

Not every policy (I think his continuation and escalation of Bush's use of drones, as an example, is great policy versus the alternative and certainly not socialist) is socialist, but his economic/business/government reg policies are almostbentirelynsocialist.

This does not mean I think he secretly marches in the streets "against the man", etc., only that I see his policies as decades-old socialist agendas that are based on class warfare, redistribution, fed gov control, and allocations to all BY the "genius" elected class.

;)

John Q.,

Clearly you must see "socialism" as a pejorative or you would not have said it!

As for the rest of your oddly-presented arguments, it is clear that John Q. still hasn't learned to read and comprehend yet!

I feel pretty confident that my explanation (re: socialism) is pretty accurate, though I am as sure John Q's is not only different but also ignores any connection to liberal policies..

As I posted, "...As I said,  Obama has BY DEFINITION made several socialist moves"' which is a 100% true statement.

John Q., in his dogmatic look at all things not his, interpreted that as calling Obama a pure socialist. Uh, read again.  I also referred to Obama events and actions, not the man,  by posting  "To the issue at hand of Pres. Obama, not only has he been oft quoted referring to the redistribution of wealth, his major policies are crystal clear on his stance here".

Again, it would be hard to argue these points. The words left his mouth (often!) and the policies are easily defined.

Now, you are  correct in that I am not a fan of socialism ---- I am a pure capitalist.  

As expected the lefties marching on "wall street" are getting more and more prone to violence.

Yesterday the one main speaker was screaming for violence and the marches to people's homes cannot end well. Also note the filth and human waste they are leaving in the public streets and parks.

They are disorganized, vile, lazy, and inept. Once they realize it, they will turn to even more violence.

Appeal2reaason,

The redistribution mobs that are being ginned up are designed to intimidate the wealthy into both financially supporting the left (like acorn who Obama coached on how to avoid arrest at protests), and discontinuing using their assets to resist socialism. Marching on peoples homes is threatening their families, a new low in Amerika. 1200 arrests so far.

The problem with wages and jobs are immigration and free trade, supported by Obama and Republicans. Dems want cheap votes and repubs want cheap workers, both want cheap nannies. The party elites see eye to eye on most issues.

By birth, by training, by pedigree, by association, by word and now by action Obama takes from those produce and redistributes to those who do not (victims of capitalism). Obama is a Marxist.

"Corps need to get off the $1 T", the question is why do they feel the need to cash up? Economic instability, govt hostile to private enterprise that they are trying to outlast, lack of good investments so they are taking 2-3% instead of 7%, collapsing economy with possible civil war brewing or at least very messy riots when welfare collapses etc.

I never agreed with Bush's big govt forced redistribution policies either, Harvard educates socialists.

Is anyone else surprised at the level of violence in these dumb protests against big business? Today in Chitown a cop was beat up!

Appeal2,

1)Since you memory is so short I will elucidate for you a few things you made up:

>I never posted, nor do I hate, Pres. Obama
>I never mentioned Marxism

2)Yes, I did have lunch (actually, a very late lunch, so it was probably brunch). I considered it a professional life's highlight, it lasted about 2 hours, and allowed for a lot of Q&A.

3)I appreciated that  you  posted a direct and reasonable question with no sarcasm, pregnant implications, etc. You asked "Why  is it ok for a system to allow 99% of us to basically serve and be at the mercy of the top 1%.". 

My response is simply that you believe we are all at the mercy of the 1%, and I don't .  I doubt we can really resolve this difference. I will try in pointing out that in the U.S. We have something  called income, or class mobility, which is quite rare in any other society. Approx every 3 years or so, about one third of the people in the three classes ---- low, middle, and upper ---- change classes. Thus, I do not see us at the "mercy" of anyone. I will say that I suspect there is a small percent of permanent low and permanent upper which rarely changes, and some may believe the permanent low are at the mercy you suggest. I believe they can get out, but we need JOBS, baby, JOBS, not permenent government freebies. 

I also do not equate monetary wealth with a monarchy.  Quite contrar as I am a capitalist and would suggest that our mobility would be impossible in a true Monarchy.

Now, as to Friedman's comment---- I agree with him AND, yes, with you! We need economic activity to create the jobs that ensure mobility that makes us all potentially equal.  However, to suggest that corporations should just change strategy and start passing out the trillions is wrong (then they would just be mimicking our inadequate government leadership).

  As a capitalist, I will take a stance and say unequivocally that until there is some certainty for businesses (certainty that can be relied upon for an extended period (say, 7 to 10 years)),  not only should the businesses NOT move forward with spending, they will be legally liable to shareholders if they do so! 

Now, here is the rub, Appeal:  I actually agree with the concept that the banks should be lending more money. However, the idiots we elect forgot that their actions have consequences, often unintended (oft due to their own stupidity). In this case, the Fed is giving away FREE MONEY with no strings!  Think of it ---- the Fed is giving money to the banks at virtually zero interest rates (hopefully thinking they would lend it out via loans to businesses, which are risky by definition), but instead the banks are using it to purchase completely risk free government securities at about 2 o 2.5 %.  Thus free money!  

The elected idiots forgot to link zero costs to business activity, and the banks know free money  when they see it and understand that losing money to risky loans when there is free money out there represents a legal liability.

All in all, a really bad micro-situation engineered by the worst group of all, politicians.  

Let me add that the afore-mentioned idiots marching on "Wall St" should be marching on the  Capital.

Note: I suspect Friedman would both encourage the banks to take free money and would take the Fed to task for an ill planned and  implemented program.

John Q.,

I not see "socialist" as a pejorative at all. Perhaps you are projecting your own bias here? I see it strictly as an economic and social theory. I think it is clear that  you have a limited (at best) view of what it is OR was.

Socialism advocates the  ownership and/or control of production and distribution In the community as a whole.  Some see it as a progression of capitalism, some as a replacement. A common indication is oft seen in the redistribution of wealth among the community. 

To the issue at hand of Pres. Obama, not only has he been oft quoted referring to the redistribution of wealth, his major policies are crystal clear on his stance here. 

Start with GM --- The U.S. ownership of GM, the destruction of the bondholders legal standing,  the handing-over of ownership to the "community" via the bargain to the unions,  are strong indicators.

  You can than add to the argument  the propping-up and selection of winners such as with renewable energy and the current Sol scandal, and can move to the allegedly affordable healthcare program which is by any definition a redistribution to the community!

As Einstein wrote, "....But historic tradition is, so to speak, of yesterday; nowhere have we really overcome what Thorstein Veblen called “the predatory phase” of human development..... Since the real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development......  Second, socialism is directed towards a social-ethical end. "

As I said,  Obama has BY DEFINITION made several socialist moves.

What have i "made up?' I'm just trying to get a dialogue going about Stiglitz's article. It's full of facts. I'm sorry if my opinion offends you surfing but I haven't made anything up. did you really have lunch with Milton or are you just trying to impress people?
seriously though, just answer the question: Why is it ok for a system to allow 99% of us to basically serve and be at the mercy of the top 1%. I thought this country was founded to get away from kings and hereditary rulers. Even Friedman says that this country's economy thrives on economic activity. But there won't be any if corporations don't get off the $1 trillion in cash they're sitting on. also, it wouldn't hurt if banks, who "have a right to make a profit would start doing it the old fashioned way by lending money. But I guess they're just content to nickel and dime everyone and live off free money from the Fed. What does Milton have to say about that?

Appeal,

Man, nothing gets through to "you people"!

You have a fixed dogma and you find only those who either support your view or who you can distort to support your view.

Stiggy is one f thousands of economists, many/most of whom deal with theory. There are many less who have applied theory and have actual data to support their stance.

As for me, I will take Friedman ---- another Nobel winning economist (and who I have lunched with in the distant past).

By the way, you trying to put words into my mouth does not make it so.

Drop your talking points and use your own brain and quit making crap up!

Man, nothing gets through to you people. I know a little about economics, but Joseph Stiglitz know a lot. He's the one who warns that a society where only the top 15 prosper is dangerous and unstable. But I guess even the carefully thought out theories by a Nobel Prize winner don't faze an ideologue. That's why I just shake my head. I don't have any liberal master like you claim. nor am i a blind follower of anyone. But it's you talking points about class warfare, redistribution of wealth, socialism, marxism, communism, America hating, ... etc. That's what so sad.

Appeal,

I see your response to the previous posts and that's what makes me sad for the future of this country---- blind followers who do not find actual data as useful but instead fall back on platitudes, talking points, and carry the water of dogma for a group that has not had a new idea (liberals) for over 60 years.

To anyone who understands economics, human history philosophy, etc., it is crystal clear that Pres. Obama is, by definition, a socialist.

This does not mean he is a commie, or even anti-American, but simply that he is a socialist who lives for the redistribution of wealth and class warfare to the detriment of true capitalism and economic mobility. It is lie seeing these idiots marching on "wall street", with signs that range from the most acute social concerns all the way to the simple-minded and the truly violent, all the while using the technology of Steve Jobs to contact each other!!!

The fact is that for the most part they are disorganized anarchists, in many cases paid (either directly or indirectly), who are marching without even a semblance of a unified organized cause or thought. Sounds a lot like our current administration.

You may enjoy your blind obedience to their alleged cause, but it is MHO that you need to get over your hatred of conservative views and policies, quit being a follower of bad doctrine, do some homework and understand the issues, understand your President only wants what is good for everyone IF it fits into his age-old social dogma, and quit encouraging the class warfare that this President in particular has been spreading.

By the way, your comment that Obama is a centrist Republican is the single silliest thing I have ever read on this blog.

I see the responses to my post and that's what makes me sad for the future of this country. Anonymous, you basically hate Obama because he dares know and associates with people who have left leanings. so freakin' what? Why does that make him bad. his policies, almost all of which have been blocked by filibuster, reflect pretty much a centrist republican. you make him out to be a rabid commie, straight out a 1950s movie. but if you look at healthcare, the budget and other policies Obama proposes things that Republicans themselves proposed but they, and people like you, refuse to cooperate. And it is all of us who suffer. as to the article. why don't you read it. i mean really read it. don't scoff just because the source . Vanity Fair has been a respected publication for over a century. And that article states just how we got here - 30 years of conservative policies, not liberal, that have benefited the top 1% at the expense of everybody else. Why are you ok with this? Why are you carrying water for people who will kick you the curb when the time comes? Get over you hatred an realize the president wants everyone to succeed and have a chance.

What we know about Obama's ideology

Born into a socialist family

Raised and mentored by socialists and Marxists

Obama went looking for every Marxist Prof at Harvard to begin friendships

Advocated wealth redistribution during the campaign

Has worked tirelessly to redistribute wealth since his election and smash the investors and entrepreneurs

"Each according to his abilities, each according to his needs"

Obama is an orthodox Marxist, fundamentally changing Amerika

Appeal,
--- Obama is an abject failure as President precisely because he is first trying to enact decades-old liberal policies and agendas under the impression they will solve our problems, as opposed to addressing the problems the,selves, first.

Remember, all problems look like a nail if your only tool is a hammer, and Obama's dogma is the hammer.

It does not matter if the Republicans fought everything since Obama had a veto-proof Congress for his first two years, and still has. A Senate majority.
If you listen closely and ignore talking points for a moment you will see data, and the data shows that even the Democrats do not fully support Obama (note that NO ONE has created a bill for his last little speech about the American jobs Act. Do you know why? Even the Dems can see it is another failure!).
 
Along the lines of useless talking points, perhaps you should walk a distance away from your liberal masters and actually READ what the Republicans propose. There are no tax cuts for this magical  1% ---- there IS A refusal to increase taxes in the middle of a recession  that OBama has managed to turn into a double recession. 

If you check the IRS database, you will quickly find that increasing the taxes on these "rich" people will accomplish nothing as the taxes collected will not  even come close to solving our current year problem and won't even dent the total debt crisis.  You will also find, surprisingly (?) that Obama and Buffett have been lying to   us about what the rich pay, versus the middle class, in terms of average tax rates.

If you read up on history & economics (not Keynsian theory) you will find that if it is true that these people are "rich", increasing taxes will only serve to tighten up what little job creation currently exists.

John Q.,

Correct if done alone, but imagine a world where politics, like business, is forced to address a "burning platform"!

Also, IF our elected idiots also, at the same time,  finally overturned the liberal move to eliminate the social security trust, recreated it, and put each weeks collections into it, our pols would  be forced to address their irresponsible spending.

Glock's comments make me realize just why this country will never get better. we have such an angry unreasonable group that will not listen to reason. Obama is trying to help America, trying to do SOMETHING. That's why we had the stimulus, healthcare and the jobs bill. What are his Republicans doing? fighting everything desperately. The hypocrisy on the right is too much to bear. What are Republicans proposing? just more tax cuts for the top one percent. again Glock here's a link as to why that's BAD. http://www.vanityfair.com/society/features/2011/05/top-one-percent-201105 Man up and read it. It was Bush and his goofball policies that screwed this country up. A return to that will be the end, literally. I'll bet all the employees at GM, whom Obama saved, would tell you just how wrong you are. GM is paying it's loans back too. Finally Glock, your comment about chimps was really over the line. You're lucky it got posted. Tells me just what kind of person you really are. Sad.

We are all taking a bath. In addition to the financial markets you named, real estate investments are also being hammered. You ask what we are doing? No we are not buying gold. We are holding steady and what we will do is fire Obama next year and all his chimps. They will be replaced with someone who understands that less government is good government and get government people can afford. The poverty rate is up for all American citizens, we are living in worse conditions than when this simpleton became president and we are not going to listen to another of his ignorant speeches telling us nothing. You bet the bedroom slippers are coming off fool. We are putting on our marching shoes and will be going to the polls to give you the no confidence vote an incompetent president should get.

If we privatize any part of Social Security now, we will have to borrow even more money to meet current obligations.

To appeal...
If it were just Greece it wouldn't be that much of a problem.
but if greece goes down and leaves or gets kicked out of the eurozone, it will go back to its own currency. and, like the US., it will print money by the tons until it pays off it's debt. Then other countries like Italy, Portugal, and Ireland will likely do the same. We are looking a t a potential economic domino effect so to speak. if that happens, Europe will be an economic crazy house. so yeah it is something to worry about. But I doubt Germany, Frrance and other more powerful European countries will let it happen. But how they deal with it remains to be seen.

I agree ---- let's privatize part of social security so we will know we own SOMETHING as time goes on, versus the current joke of IOUs and treasuries.

That way, at least we will physically own something we can leave in wills, etc.

The current situation of a ponzi scheme with no trust, no "lockbox"' stands as an insult to our intelligence.

Market down another 200 points. I guess we can't ignore that huge economy of Greece and what it means to the world. any excuse for Wall street to cheat us.

Let's just privatize social security. Then we'll have NOTHING left.